Month: December 2025

Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] enlightened online training to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time. Whitening underwhelms. Try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental. Leaders. The podcast where you [00:00:30] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:00:40] Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Zaid Ismail onto [00:00:45] the podcast side. A specialist orthodontist who [00:00:50] works in a Bupa practice and also teaches [00:00:55] a lot, um, with your online An authentic academy, [00:01:00] which is interesting. Um, and I think there’s a real need for that these [00:01:05] days. So it’s good to have you, buddy.

Zaid Esmail: Thank you. Thank you for having me on. Very glad to be part of this.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well [00:01:10] done. Well done for coming all the way to the office, though. Um, I want to start with a with [00:01:15] a very general question, but hopefully you’ll you’ll like it. What’s [00:01:20] the difference between a good orthodontist and a great orthodontist?

Zaid Esmail: Uh, [00:01:25] I think, uh, a couple of things. I think communication I think any clinician really communication is massive. [00:01:30] Um, I find it with my patients that [00:01:35] they, apart from the ones they get referred through word of mouth, the ones that come through, they [00:01:40] don’t know what to expect. They don’t know you. Are they going to trust you in the next two years to do the treatment? They’re going to [00:01:45] trust you, the money they’re going to pay you. And it’s not like a general dentist. We see them every six months and you kind of get [00:01:50] to know them. They’re either being referred in, um, or they found you on online. Uh, [00:01:55] so I think communication is key. And I think that initial appointment is is key. And I think [00:02:00] being honest with them about what you can achieve and what you can’t achieve, I think is massive. And I think the more [00:02:05] I’ve been doing it, and the more sometimes when I almost not put off a patient, but go [00:02:10] through all the risks from from day one, that they realise actually you’re not trying to pull the wool over [00:02:15] their eyes. And the more you do that, the more they they trust you. Um, [00:02:20] and I think it’s really important to be personable. And because you’re going to see these patients [00:02:25] every 6 to 8 weeks, essentially these patients become your your friends. You’re going to see them maybe every 18 months. You have [00:02:30] that relationship they may not have with their general dentist because they’ve seen general dentist every, every six months, but we’re seeing [00:02:35] them every 6 to 8 weeks.

Zaid Esmail: We’re seeing the parents every 6 to 8 weeks, and we really get to know them, and which is the great part of the [00:02:40] job. But I think it’s also the the bad part, because after that, two years after that retainer review, after we’ve stopped [00:02:45] seeing them, we don’t necessarily see them again unless there’s a, there’s a problem. So sometimes I’ll the [00:02:50] older sibling that I’ve treated comes back with a younger sibling. And then you see them and then you’ve, you know, you’ve seen how much they’ve grown [00:02:55] and changed. And, um, so it’s one thing that you kind of have a really close knit relationship [00:03:00] with them for the two years, and then and after that you don’t see them again, which is um, which [00:03:05] is sad, but it’s but it’s lovely at the same time. And it feels like I’m staying the same age because all my patients [00:03:10] are roughly the same age. So I feel like I’m always treating between 11 and 14 year olds. And certainly when they come back as an [00:03:15] older sibling seven years later and you think, oh God, I’ve been doing this for a for a while. Um, [00:03:20] so that I really like, and then you end up treating siblings, you end up treating parents, and you end up treating the whole family. [00:03:25] Um, and that is that is great. But I think that really comes down to doing I think it’s quite [00:03:30] simple. Just do a good job and just be nice to people, and nice people hang out with other nice people. And because [00:03:35] we see patients, our patients, every 6 to 8 weeks, I’m always, um, very good [00:03:40] at leaving a little note on when you have a conversation about doing a half term and say, oh, we’re going to France.

Zaid Esmail: When they come back in six [00:03:45] weeks later. Oh, how was France? And oh, good memories. So that kind of those little tidbits that I’ve picked up, [00:03:50] um, along the way. And just because they see you almost [00:03:55] as a friend. I think you almost have to see them as a friend as well. Um, so [00:04:00] for every, uh, every patient that I start that I either put bond up on, [00:04:05] bond the braces on, or fit their attachments. A week later, I call them. So my Thursday evening, before I [00:04:10] go home, I call the patients from the previous week the ones that I’ve put a brace and check they’re going okay. And it’s the same [00:04:15] conversation every time, you know, and they’re so appreciative about it. And it’s such a simple thing. It takes two minutes out of my time, but [00:04:20] I don’t see it as a chore. And I don’t delegate it to other staff because I think one, it’s nice [00:04:25] that they hear it from me. And and actually, I want to know that make sure they’re okay because because [00:04:30] if they are, then I can sleep. I can enjoy my weekend. I don’t work Friday. So my Thursday night I get all my admin done, get it all [00:04:35] done. I can enjoy the weekend, but I can enjoy the weekend knowing the patients I’ve treated are in good hands and they’re happy. [00:04:40] So I’m very lucky to be in this field.

Payman Langroudi: Are you are you treating mostly adults [00:04:45] or kids?

Zaid Esmail: I say mostly kids because I practice has a quite a large NHS contract. So the private that [00:04:50] comes from there are patients that don’t qualify or they want alternative options with NHS doesn’t doesn’t fund. [00:04:55] And I’d say the majority of my adults that I treat are probably parents of kids that I’ve treated. Um, [00:05:00] so we’re a bit of a niche practice within Bupa because we’ve kept the [00:05:05] original branding of the practice, which is what Grosvenor House orthodontic practice, because when Bupa [00:05:10] bought out total, they changed all their practice to total. But there’s a total practice up the road. [00:05:15] Okay. So we couldn’t really rebrand to total. So we don’t really have the same marketing or or [00:05:20] brand name as total do. So a lot of patients don’t really [00:05:25] see us as as being part of that group. So anytime people bring out marketing and all that stuff, it’s [00:05:30] a bit of a frustration because we kind of get left behind. Um, and any branding material, they sent us all [00:05:35] total branded, which is kind of useless from our point of view. So we’ve done very well by by growing it. And now that I’ve been [00:05:40] there for coming up to seven years and growing the name and growing the brand, and even though [00:05:45] it’s a Bupa practice, I still feel like it’s my practice because it’s my name on there. I’m doing [00:05:50] the majority of the work at that practice. So the, the, um, what [00:05:55] the practice is, is I feel like is, is me. So some patients will come to [00:06:00] practice, but then they’re also coming to, to see me. So even though it’s not my practice and I’m, and I’m growing [00:06:05] the EBITDA and the brand name for, for Bupa, but that’s fine. But it’s I’m getting a good end of the deal as well. And [00:06:10] don’t you know, they always say associates are quite good because they have the responsibility of dealing with staff. But I feel [00:06:15] I’ve got the bad end of that because I deal with staff because I want the staff to be happy.

Payman Langroudi: The associate. [00:06:20]

Zaid Esmail: Yeah, but it’s, um.

Payman Langroudi: Is your goal is your goal to go [00:06:25] private?

Zaid Esmail: Um, no, I [00:06:30] two things. Um, I think a lot of my private comes from the NHS, [00:06:35] the patients that have been referred in. And when a patient does come in, I am very happy to go through the options [00:06:40] and say, these are the options. This is what we can do. This is the NHS option. This is the private option. And just let them decide. I [00:06:45] don’t want to be in a position where I have to sell treatment. I don’t want to be in position where I own a practice [00:06:50] and it’s fully private and go, oh, I’ve got bills to pay this month, I’ve got this to pay. I haven’t had enough starts. [00:06:55] That patient that comes in for a consult and back of your mind thinking I shouldn’t really be treating them, or [00:07:00] you change the plan to try and suit them because you want that start coming in. [00:07:05] I never want to be in that position. I love my job because I can sleep at night. I can just I’ve done ethical [00:07:10] work.

Payman Langroudi: Doesn’t mean that you have to be unethical, right? You could be private and ethical.

Zaid Esmail: Yeah, I think you can. But I think with ortho [00:07:15] is different because, um, we’re competing private author. You’re competing with free NHS [00:07:20] if they, if they qualify. Um, so, you know, I like [00:07:25] that position where for me, when a patient goes ahead, it’s not about the money anymore. It’s about the trust.

Payman Langroudi: Is [00:07:30] it not that as an orthodontist you can’t do what you want to do on the NHS?

Zaid Esmail: Uh, [00:07:35] yeah. That’s true.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so you know what I mean. That’s very unethical in itself, isn’t it, that you’re you’re [00:07:40] having to do treatment that isn’t as good as you could make it because you’ve got NHS payment system. [00:07:45] That’s. Yeah. True. I mean I would that would Though, as someone like you who’s [00:07:50] like, you know, a well-known orthodontist who’s at the top of your field. Yeah, completely. Do my head [00:07:55] in.

Zaid Esmail: It’s true. But I think also the flip side of that, if you didn’t have the NHS, then those patients wouldn’t be able [00:08:00] to have any treatment at all. So the fact you can offer something there and actually ultimately, you [00:08:05] know, the end result, I kind of say to patients enrolled is going to be roughly the same. You know.

Payman Langroudi: You go to these conferences in America [00:08:10] and the way they treat people there is totally different. Yeah. Because [00:08:15] the NHS can’t like I guess most of what you’re doing is extraction for.

Zaid Esmail: No, necessarily. [00:08:20] I’m very pragmatic orthodontics. I would treat what needs to be done. I think I go to these conferences, the ones that [00:08:25] are that treat everything non extraction in my view, are as bad as everyone that that treats everything with [00:08:30] extractions. The old 80s orthodontics of four fours on the floor or four fours. If not, why not? [00:08:35] I think that’s that’s wrong. It doesn’t mean you do extraction non extraction, whether it’s NHS or private. The plan [00:08:40] is.

Payman Langroudi: What do you do differently.

Zaid Esmail: Um so different appliances. So obviously Invisalign [00:08:45] ceramic appliances. Um, you’re more kind of do the service. So, um, [00:08:50] try and have more kind of optical availability appointments for, for private patients. I, [00:08:55] we let them book a couple appointments ahead. The NHS gets quite busy sometimes. They may be seeing every nine, [00:09:00] ten weeks between adjustments as opposed to every 6 to 8. Um, my, we’re quite lucky we [00:09:05] have therapists. The therapists can work in orthodontics and it works with us. We can make the NHS work as a therapist, do [00:09:10] the NHS treatment. So there’s that aspect. And, uh, I do a lot of fixed functionals, [00:09:15] um, as well. I think the one thing though that we can do better and we go to America and it [00:09:20] makes a big difference, is maybe some of the early treatments. I think the, um, in the NHS, it doesn’t really [00:09:25] pay to do early treatment and therefore are kind of slightly apart from the anterior crossbite. I, you know, for me, [00:09:30] if I can’t offer an NHS option as an alternative, I then don’t I almost don’t offer it as a [00:09:35] private option unless they inquire and ask about it. But I think the flip side of that, you go to America [00:09:40] and there is a lot of overtreatment early. You know, they call it patient capture. You treat [00:09:45] them at that age because you know they’re going to come back at, you know, 11, 12, 13 and they’re doing all this expansion [00:09:50] treatment and, and all that. And some of it patients do benefit from it, but but others don’t. And [00:09:55] so I think there is an element of potential overtreatment in that system. So I think, you know, a balance [00:10:00] between between both is is because like I said, I’ve got quite pragmatic when it comes.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:10:05] a funny thing, man. You know, since I’ve become a parent and I’ve had my both my kids go through [00:10:10] ortho makes me think if we’re talking from the business perspective, [00:10:15] yeah, it’s such a winner that it’s your kid. Yeah. And then [00:10:20] as soon as the orthodontist mentions your kid’s face. Yeah. That’s it. I’m like, take my money. You [00:10:25] know, it was as simple as that. And, you know, this orthodontist knew who I was. My wife’s a dentist [00:10:30] as well. Um, and both of them. Yeah. Um, the moment they talk about [00:10:35] your child’s face, that’s it. You know, I paid £7,000 for. [00:10:40] For ortho, for my kid for that reason.

Zaid Esmail: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I think what I’m saying is from the business perspective, [00:10:45] it’s just purely talking from a business perspective. It sounds to me like Private Author is [00:10:50] one of the easiest businesses in the world, man.

[BOTH]: And yeah, I suppose.

Zaid Esmail: And [00:10:55] I think if there wasn’t an NHS orthodontic system, I think yeah, it definitely is. It sells [00:11:00] itself, you know. You know, it’s um, I when I, one of the reasons I wanted to go into [00:11:05] ortho when I did dental school, it was the whole kind of everything was veneered and stuff in my head. I was like, you can just [00:11:10] straighten them and wine them. And it’s like, you know, it’s there are there are risks, but the risks are very minimal. And [00:11:15] what you outweigh and um, and I think from my point of view, it’s not just the [00:11:20] straightening. What I see with some patients, which I think is, is amazing, which isn’t talked about enough, is [00:11:25] that they come in, they don’t really care about their teeth. They’re not really not really looking at their teeth before. And they kind of have [00:11:30] braces because their friend had braces. They get referred in and by the end of the treatment, they you [00:11:35] have to take the brace off. The amount of patients that I see, they’re all hygiene has improved massively. They [00:11:40] only care about their teeth. They only want to go to the dentist to get that done because they suddenly value their teeth, which [00:11:45] they never did before.

Zaid Esmail: And I think that’s massive. And we have patients that come in, um, [00:11:50] and the parents are like, well, I never had ortho or I never wear my retainer or I want my kids and we do things for our [00:11:55] kids that we never had the opportunity for, and and our kids will do the same. So yeah, it is um, emotionally [00:12:00] it’s it’s difficult. And then it’s also that balance of sometimes saying to patients, your teeth aren’t that bad. [00:12:05] Like, I’ll be honest with them. So yeah, we can improve this a bit, but they’re not that bad. And [00:12:10] you know, some of it will go ahead and some of it don’t. And that’s absolutely fine I don’t think we need to treat. We treat everyone. [00:12:15] Um, but that’s going back to saying earlier, if I had a private practice [00:12:20] where I was solely relying on the private income, and I’ve got bills to pay and staff to pay and maintenance pay and and we’ve had a [00:12:25] bad month, am I still going to have those same views of going, no, they’re [00:12:30] not that bad or actually I need to pay thing [00:12:35] this month or pay staff this month. Maybe we should do the treatment. So I think.

[BOTH]: Um, I.

Payman Langroudi: Still take issue [00:12:40] with you that always conflating that with private dentistry. I mean, if you’re a dishonest [00:12:45] dentist.

Zaid Esmail: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: In any system, you’ll do dishonest work.

Zaid Esmail: Yeah. [00:12:50]

Payman Langroudi: If you’re not a dishonest dentist, in any system, you won’t do dishonest. The motivations [00:12:55] are all there for you in the NHS. You could use cheaper stuff. You could have shorter [00:13:00] appointments. You could have longer spaces between. I mean, if you’re dishonest, you’ll find you’ll [00:13:05] find a way.

[BOTH]: No, absolutely.

Zaid Esmail: And I totally get that. Maybe it’s my slight risk averse aspect of it, [00:13:10] but I think with a with a, I think because with ortho you do a great job and that’s the patient’s done. [00:13:15] They’re not paying anymore. While the general dentistry you can keep them on a private plan. You just think, well, if I’ve got 10,000 patients [00:13:20] on my books, that’s me done. I can do whatever I need to do. But I think when you finish one case, you then [00:13:25] you’ve got to wait for the next one to come through. It’s kind of a conveyor belt. And if you’ve suddenly finished all those cases and [00:13:30] there’s less patients coming through for whatever reason, then I think that’s when it becomes more difficult.

Payman Langroudi: If it [00:13:35] was me, if it was me, I would run ads around sort of five mile radius of private [00:13:40] schools. Yeah. And I’d mentioned the face a lot in the ads. Yeah. Yeah. And [00:13:45] in ads you can’t you can’t zoom in too much on, on on body parts. Right. But [00:13:50] you know, it just it I don’t know, man. It’s from if we’re talking purely business, it [00:13:55] just seems like it was a business that you could get enough private children, I think. Yeah. Because [00:14:00] you don’t need that many. Do you like. I mean, how many patients does a private orthodontist need in a year? 200. [00:14:05] 300? Yeah. It’s not that many humans you need to convert. It’s not.

Zaid Esmail: I think also, at the [00:14:10] same time, I like doing it because I don’t want to be just treating iotn twos all the time. I like the complicated [00:14:15] cases that come through, um, and the big changes. And, you know, I would be quite disheartened if [00:14:20] someone that comes through and I say, we can do this. And then they go, oh, no, we’re going to go somewhere else because we want to get that, which is absolutely [00:14:25] fair enough. I had an opportunity to change that. So I think having a I think, yes business point [00:14:30] of view, I agree. But I think from a a whole.

Payman Langroudi: Career point of view.

Zaid Esmail: What makes you happy [00:14:35] is.

Payman Langroudi: How many years did you continue being a dentist before you decide to specialise, [00:14:40] or had you decided to specialise very early?

Zaid Esmail: So I wanted to specialise in dental school. [00:14:45] And so actually before I remember my interview, I mentioned I wanted to be an orthodontist only because I did [00:14:50] my work through braces.

Payman Langroudi: Yourself.

Zaid Esmail: I didn’t actually know. I was never referred. I did my work experience [00:14:55] with a dentist who did a bit of ortho. He had a small kind of geodesic contract and I thought, that looks all right. And I thought maybe in an interview [00:15:00] it might sound a bit different by saying, I want to orthodontics.

Payman Langroudi: Where did you grow up?

Zaid Esmail: I grew up in South Wales. Um, [00:15:05] and then I went to uni in Liverpool.

Payman Langroudi: Cardiff, South.

Zaid Esmail: Cardiff and then Swansea. So we came. [00:15:10] When we came to this country we were straight into Cardiff. Where did you come from? Iraq.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Zaid Esmail: So it’s quite an interesting [00:15:15] story actually. So my dad, both my parents are doctors. Um, my dad was um, doing national service [00:15:20] at the time and to get one of the top jobs in Iraq, you’ve got to come over here and do a fellowship for two years. [00:15:25] So we did. He got applied, got in, came here, did a clinical attachment in Cardiff and [00:15:30] doing the fellowship being funded by the Iraqi government. Two months in Iraq invaded Kuwait. [00:15:35] So all hell breaks loose. Sanctions funds were seized, no more money was [00:15:40] coming in. And suddenly it was like, what do we do now? Um, so.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:15:45] old were you?

Zaid Esmail: Five. And my brother was, uh, two. Um, and at [00:15:50] the time, I didn’t think anything of it. You know, I but my mum, she tells me stories now that every time there [00:15:55] was a knock on her door, she just literally thought it was the police or customs sending us back home. Um, [00:16:00] luckily, my dad was a very hard worker and he was very experienced. Um, and they just wanted him. [00:16:05] So they kind of the consultants there started to keep him on, and he redid his training and we ended up staying. So actually for [00:16:10] us it worked out very, very well. Um, and then I got a consultant job in West Wales, so we [00:16:15] moved to Swansea. Um, and then, um.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of dog was.

Zaid Esmail: He? Anesthetised. Yeah. [00:16:20] Yeah. So he’s 70 and he probably works more days than I do still. [00:16:25] Yeah, I do for he’s sometimes working five, six days a week. Um, so yeah. So [00:16:30] growing up I there were like medicinal dentistry pick one. And I was it’s like, you know, that classic [00:16:35] Arab mentality. And, uh, I did work experience in medicine I thought was all right. I did it [00:16:40] in dentistry. And I thought, actually, it’s quite nice. I’ve always liked using my hands. I always liked building stuff growing up. And I like the sciences. [00:16:45] So I thought, okay, I’ll go down that route. And I wasn’t the most judicious, [00:16:50] um, at school, I was quite I did the bare minimum to get through, um, [00:16:55] and I think I probably refers to dental school. I probably had the worst GCSEs [00:17:00] of all our year. Um, A-levels are kind of scraped. Scraped through. Um, [00:17:05] and then when I started dental school, I was like, okay, I enjoy this, I like this, and I think [00:17:10] I got a distinction in second year and I suddenly realised, oh, okay, I can, I can do this. Uh, and we had [00:17:15] a fantastic professor in Liverpool who just came over from [00:17:20] Leeds, a guy called Professor Callum Youngson, who just had an MBA last year, I think, which is very [00:17:25] thoroughly deserved. And he was someone I hold on a pinnacle because he on a pedestal, sorry. He [00:17:30] was and he just made you feel like you were really good. I remember did a couple of cases [00:17:35] and I thought, actually, I want to do more than just general dentistry. So I actually did a really fantastic restorative work case with him, and I [00:17:40] loved that. I love complicated dentistry on patients that let you just get on with it. So [00:17:45] I knew I kind of wanted to specialise and yeah, the whole ortho aspect, we did our ortho in [00:17:50] dental school, really looking forward to that module and then went to it and I was like.

Payman Langroudi: They didn’t really teach it in dental school [00:17:55] very well.

Zaid Esmail: This is awful. This is so boring. I don’t, you know, uh, so I kind of thought maybe [00:18:00] I’ll go and do restorative. And then, um, I had a meeting with with Prof. And he’s like, maybe you do. He [00:18:05] gave me a career plan of what you need to do. You need to gpt, um, potential hospital jobs and [00:18:10] get get a number. So I did GPT up in Newcastle. So that was a great program up there. I did one week on, [00:18:15] one week off, um, and did some fantastic stuff at that point, then kind of rekindled my liking for [00:18:20] orthodontics because my trainer did some ortho, so actually did a couple of cases with him and [00:18:25] I knew I wanted to specialise for me. I felt like I had to have that, um, that validation [00:18:30] that I’m a specialist in the field, and I really enjoyed restorative and I really enjoyed ortho.

Payman Langroudi: Why? Why? Because [00:18:35] of your parents?

Zaid Esmail: I don’t know, it’s just parents, but I think because if you were going out as a general dentist and [00:18:40] you had all these different courses that were available, and I was like, where do you start? I needed to have that [00:18:45] structure of, you do this on to the next stage, on to the next stage, and the whole restorative [00:18:50] aspect at the time. This is kind of just before the mono speciality aspect coming in. Um, [00:18:55] I it was all seem to be hospital based and consultant based, and I knew I liked working in [00:19:00] the pace of practice. So then with orthotics, I looked at that actually, I really, really enjoyed that [00:19:05] as well. Um, and so I just thought I’d go down that route. And then I met my wife, [00:19:10] who’s from south. She didn’t want to move up north, so we moved down to London. Um, [00:19:15] did Maxfax and did PEDs and got into ortho and from there. So I kind of knew early on I wanted to.

Payman Langroudi: Where [00:19:20] did you do the math?

Zaid Esmail: Um, I was split between guys in Brighton, so it was a wicked guys. Uh, [00:19:25] and a week at Brighton, um, which was. Which was great because it’s two very different units. You kind of have a district general [00:19:30] where learn a lot of the ortho. And then guys was was an experience because some of the cases were [00:19:35] that were coming through that. But also you were left a little bit more on your own at guys while [00:19:40] Brighton, you were kind of more, you know, the consultant right next to doing a clinic. So I [00:19:45] learned a lot at.

Payman Langroudi: So I want to talk about the more in detail, especially because there’s so many people [00:19:50] considering it. But I want to rewind to Liverpool. Yeah. What kind of a kid were [00:19:55] you? Were you like party kid? Were you like Doctor Studious?

Zaid Esmail: Um, I was a bit, so [00:20:00] I never drank any. I still don’t drink now. And, um, but because of that, I was end up being out [00:20:05] most nights because I had a hangover the next day. So I was very sociable. Um, I enjoyed going out. I enjoyed, [00:20:10] um, you know, that aspect of it. And, you know, I.

Payman Langroudi: The first time you were away from home. [00:20:15] Yeah.

Zaid Esmail: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: First time. Liverpool’s a good town.

Zaid Esmail: Great town.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Zaid Esmail: Got great memories there. [00:20:20] Fantastic. Five years spent there. Great.

Payman Langroudi: I think the people though quite similar to South Wales, [00:20:25] you know, they’ve got this sort of warmth to them. Yeah. Family orientation.

Zaid Esmail: Very friendly. Yeah. Um. [00:20:30] And funny.

Payman Langroudi: People.

Zaid Esmail: And great people to to practice dentistry on because they just let [00:20:35] you get on, get away with anything. You know, almost didn’t matter. So. Yeah. Um, yeah, it was a great time. [00:20:40] I was, um, I think I, I’m quite similar now. I try and do both. [00:20:45] I try to work hard and play hard. Um, so for me, I’m not very good at sitting still and [00:20:50] doing. Which is why I’ve done all these extra things from from finishing. Um, I was always right. Let’s [00:20:55] get the work done and then let’s let’s enjoy. And I kind of grew up with that with my parents because I like [00:21:00] doing all these things, but they forced me to try and get work done. So for me. Right. Well, if I’m got my tennis [00:21:05] coach in the afternoon, if I’ve got golfer, I’ve got football or whatever, let me get a few hours work done and then go and do that. So for me, I kind [00:21:10] of I’ve always had that. So going off to uni for the first time and being away from home [00:21:15] was. Yeah, I absolutely loved it. Um, but it was quite [00:21:20] nice to have that balance of I think they’re not drinking was, was great because I, [00:21:25] I drove. It cost me anything. I drove there, drove back, I was I was the designated driver. Um, [00:21:30] but then I had different group of friends. I had my dental mates. I had my halls of residence friends. So it kind [00:21:35] of almost go out with, you know, throughout the week and with different groups and getting to know different people. So, [00:21:40] um, yeah, really loved. And then it became when you get into third year, [00:21:45] you start doing clinics.

Payman Langroudi: Gets a bit serious suddenly.

Zaid Esmail: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, um, [00:21:50] but again, you know, going out, going out the night before, but it didn’t matter because a lot of patients the next day and, you know, [00:21:55] you weren’t drinking, you weren’t hungover, you were still kind of being able to to do it. So no, it was a great time.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about [00:22:00] the thought process, especially now becoming an orthodontist. [00:22:05] Now, a bit different proposition to in your day and [00:22:10] in my day before you, because in my day, if I can characterise [00:22:15] it, it was like the top 2 or 3 kids in the class of dental school [00:22:20] would say they either want to be orthodontists or oral surgeons or something? Yeah, and [00:22:25] the orthodontists would have to go through a bunch of crap. Difficult life and [00:22:30] do the math, but almost promise at the end of it, a brilliant career. Loads [00:22:35] of money. Not not not risky in that sense. Yeah. Today, [00:22:40] when almost every dentist is doing ortho. Yeah. It’s a whole different proposition. Especially [00:22:45] as people don’t want to refer out of their own practices anymore.

Zaid Esmail: Yeah. No. Absolutely. [00:22:50]

Payman Langroudi: So take me through the thought process. Did you have any thought process about, you know, what [00:22:55] it will be like to be an orthodontist? Did you talk to people about it? The did [00:23:00] you go through that thing that I went through with? Watch your friends buying Porsches while you’re still studying? [00:23:05] Yeah. Yeah.

Zaid Esmail: It was it was difficult. But I think at the same time it was kind of just always [00:23:10] the next stage. So it was did Newcastle two years fine and moved down to London. [00:23:15] Enjoyed Maxfax and.

Payman Langroudi: Did you, did.

Zaid Esmail: You. I did. Um, it was an experience [00:23:20] and I think after a year doing Maxfax.

Payman Langroudi: I hated it, man.

Zaid Esmail: You’d never do it at the Royal London. And [00:23:25] I remember two months in, I was on call. New year’s Eve, and it was an absolute war [00:23:30] zone. Yeah, but after that night, I was like, nothing’s going to stress me out.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Zaid Esmail: That’s true.

Payman Langroudi: Once it makes [00:23:35] a man of you.

Zaid Esmail: Yeah. And and so it was so it was great. So that year was a bit of a blur because it was so busy. [00:23:40] Um, and I applied that year and I, um, was ranked sixth, I would [00:23:45] say, in London because my wife didn’t want to move out. So I was ranked. There were 15 places in London, I was ranked 16th, so I just [00:23:50] missed out. So I ended PEDs at guy’s, uh, just to get another job done. [00:23:55] That bit was a bit disheartening because I was like, I was almost there and I could have been me, but [00:24:00] it worked out really well because I ended up because I did it. Guys. I put guys in. Brighton’s my [00:24:05] first choice, talking to a couple of friends. It was good. So I got in that year and the [00:24:10] three years I probably had a very different experience to others. My son was born two months into emerald [00:24:15] training, so Emerald started October, um, and my son was born in November.

Payman Langroudi: So is [00:24:20] your wife dentist as well?

Zaid Esmail: No, she’s a GP. She’s a doctor. But at the time she was doing her anaesthetic training. So [00:24:25] it was three years of having a kid, my wife working on calls [00:24:30] and nights, um, and doing everything else and commuting to Brighton and commuting [00:24:35] to guy’s and everything in between. And I was working Saturday morning [00:24:40] in a general dental practice, as well as every other Monday when I was at guy’s.

Payman Langroudi: Just to pay the bills, just.

Zaid Esmail: To pay the bills, [00:24:45] just to pay nursery bills, nappies, all that.

Payman Langroudi: So and it was quite a difficult course. [00:24:50]

Zaid Esmail: It’s, it’s a lot of time um.

Payman Langroudi: Reading.

Zaid Esmail: Reading [00:24:55] essays, um cases because you have to present five cases to a, to a great standard [00:25:00] and you’ve got to write those cases up and then, um, and then the research, you’ve got to do a masters with it as well. So you’ve [00:25:05] got the research aspect of it as well. So it is just complete time management. I wouldn’t say it’s difficult. [00:25:10] I think if you put the work in you’ll get there.

Payman Langroudi: Would you say it’s fit for purpose considering [00:25:15] like where we’re at?

Zaid Esmail: I think I think I think it is for the reason that [00:25:20] those three years you are living, breathing, treating orthodontics full time. So [00:25:25] that old adage you master your thing, you’ve done 10,000 hours, you know, and that was a good chunk [00:25:30] of 10,000 hours in those three years you are with other orthodontists. You are other other trainees. You every [00:25:35] day you are living and breathing it. So when I was on the train to work, I’d be doing I’ll be reading [00:25:40] papers, I’d be writing up essays. Um, and then on the train back, I’d start that [00:25:45] and probably end up falling asleep halfway through. And then in the evenings, I remember my son did not sleep in the [00:25:50] evenings unless we were in the room with him. So I’d sat on the floor.

Payman Langroudi: And which he was this.

Zaid Esmail: This would have been between 2012 and [00:25:55] 2015. Um, I was on the floor on my laptop doing work while he was sleeping in the car until [00:26:00] he slept, because he wouldn’t sleep unless someone was in the room with him.

Payman Langroudi: So, for instance, did they teach you aligners?

Zaid Esmail: No. [00:26:05] And that’s the thing. They don’t. They don’t teach aligners. They don’t teach you. They teach you bog [00:26:10] standard biomechanics and working with different.

Payman Langroudi: That’s crazy. Like, [00:26:15] yeah, I know at the end of the day, you’re still moving teeth and it’s force [00:26:20] on teeth and all that. But but it is madness, isn’t it? Yeah, the orthodontists aren’t taught aligners [00:26:25] in their mouth.

Zaid Esmail: I know it is crazy. And actually, if you went to America, they they do teach [00:26:30] you all that. But I think the sheer number of cases that you treat.

Payman Langroudi: Itself is. [00:26:35]

Zaid Esmail: Itself. And you just know how to move teeth. And then you can then apply that to, to aligners. And actually, [00:26:40] um, that was one of the things when I went to the first conference, I went to, um, I was first [00:26:45] or second year, uh, Reg was over in America. Um, my consultant came in. He’s like, if you published this, [00:26:50] if you write this as a case report, as a poster and get it published, kings might pay for you to go to America. I was [00:26:55] like, brilliant. You know, a week away, um, is be able to do that. And I went there and that really opened my eyes to some of [00:27:00] the stuff they treat the, um, the American conferences, they do things so big [00:27:05] and so great. And I remember looking at the thing and it was, um, uh, Huey Lewis and the news [00:27:10] and I just thought was a tribute act. No, no, it was actually Huey Lewis and the news in there.

Payman Langroudi: My brother, my [00:27:15] brother’s a radiologist. He went to the big Chicago radiology event and Barack [00:27:20] Obama was speaking. Yeah, Jay Leno was there.

Zaid Esmail: And it’s just mental. So you go to these [00:27:25] lectures and you see all the big boys in orthodontics speaking, and there was a massive line of sections at that time. The liners were kind of were [00:27:30] still fairly new in the sense that this was this was in 2012. So there was there or thereabouts. [00:27:35] There was a bit of scepticism in the author world of what aligners could do. Um, [00:27:40] but then you go to those lectures and you go, blew my mind. Some of the movements they were doing [00:27:45] with with aligners and then, um, when I kind of after two years into ortho, [00:27:50] I then finished, I stopped working Saturday morning in a general practice. I was literally bashing the gnashers, [00:27:55] as they say, um, on Saturday, um, an ortho job. So [00:28:00] still training. But I started an ortho job in a little niche practice in Chiswick on on [00:28:05] a Saturday. And that’s when I thought, well, I’ve got to start doing aligners and, but I could go into it [00:28:10] because I can treat my plan, I can do everything else. But at the same time, if it didn’t go to plan, I could put a [00:28:15] fixed on. I can do that at the end to get the patient to the point where we want to. So even if you’d messed up, [00:28:20] you know, haven’t quite done it properly or what have you? I always put they always did, um, [00:28:25] you know, a light or a full. I put everyone through as a full because I thought, well, worst case, I can just keep refining until until they’re happy. [00:28:30] Um, but also, worst case, I can put a fix on at the end. So I had that knowledge. And that’s why sometimes when I see some dentists [00:28:35] that do a bit of ortho do a bit of Invisalign, I’m thinking if you have what goes wrong when it goes wrong, if you [00:28:40] can’t put a sectional fixed on, what do you do at that at that point?

Payman Langroudi: Refer.

Zaid Esmail: Well then is [00:28:45] the patient going to be happy? Who’s going to pay for that? And so and that’s when I [00:28:50] thought actually, maybe I should start doing my own mentoring and teaching, because this is going to be doing it anyway. [00:28:55] And when I qualified, um, there was a whole host of things about six months. [00:29:00] Smiles was massive at that point, and I remember the dentists that did it in the practice that I was working on on the Saturday, [00:29:05] and they’d be booking out an hour and a half for an adjustment and seeing the patient every four weeks. And and I was thinking, that’s not [00:29:10] one, it’s not efficient. Two, you actually don’t know what you’re doing. You can’t go on a weekend course. And there was [00:29:15] a I remember seeing advertised somewhere that, you know, it was like comparing specialist orthodontics [00:29:20] to this dentist doing six month smiles. And it was like six months for them. [00:29:25] Specialist was two years. White brace for them. Specialist was with metal you [00:29:30] know and I was thinking you know all the studies show how efficiency orthodontics is about experience not [00:29:35] about anything else. And um so you’re coming out of that and you’re thinking and people you [00:29:40] can no doubt it was going to get in trouble doing it purely because they don’t you don’t know what you don’t know.

Zaid Esmail: Um, [00:29:45] and I remember I had a the whole fast braces thing was out and all this stuff [00:29:50] and fast braces was a triangular bracket brace that initially they marketed to orthodontists [00:29:55] and in the audience actually doesn’t know that much difference. And then they moved away and marketed to GDP because they [00:30:00] might not know any better than them. And it was on Facebook. And then I was then being accused of being a protectionist. [00:30:05] I was like, the issue is not you not doing it is you’re not getting the training to do it. [00:30:10] You would not put an implant in by just doing a weekend course. You would do surgical skills, you build it [00:30:15] up. And I think that’s what I was looking at. I think because ortho can sometimes look straightforward, um, it’s [00:30:20] quite easy to go. It’s just the clincheck shows this and well, it [00:30:25] should just get to that. But if you don’t understand tooth movement, I.

Payman Langroudi: Mean, I’ll tell you what I was surprised about ortho. We made [00:30:30] a little foray into ortho. Well, we’ve thought about it. We didn’t do it. In the end. We thought about [00:30:35] it. And I didn’t understand the market very well. So I [00:30:40] asked, um, someone to gather [00:30:45] the top orthodontists in the country so that I can talk to them. And it [00:30:50] amazed me, first of all, that I don’t know why we think [00:30:55] as generalists, we think specialists don’t get themselves into trouble. Yeah. We [00:31:00] just think, you know, specialist is going to be fine. Yeah, it’s going to be everything. But it amazes me in [00:31:05] the detailed conversations with them that you guys get in trouble too. Yeah, [00:31:10] yeah. It’s such a weird thing because you just think that’s not the case.

Zaid Esmail: No. But also, [00:31:15] then you would probably treat them more complicated cases as well. Yeah. The ones that can go wrong and everyone gets them. [00:31:20] And what you do. I think you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, but we just don’t think that. The other thing is we think as [00:31:25] generalists that there’s only one answer and there isn’t. There’s just like just like if you put [00:31:30] ten dentists in the room, you’ll get 11 treatment plans. The same thing with ortho. Totally [00:31:35] different opinions. People do things differently. And the other thing [00:31:40] that’s really surprised me is the egos. The egos in orthodontists are even [00:31:45] bigger than the egos in dentistry. And you can see why, right? You can see the reasons why that might end [00:31:50] up being that way with everyone being top of their class or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Zaid Esmail: Absolutely. And I think [00:31:55] that’s where when, um, align tried to come into the country, I think they tried to kind [00:32:00] of go down the orthodontists route. And obviously the ego with orthodontists were like, well, no, this is not going to work. This is a removable appliance, [00:32:05] removable appliance, only tip teeth and all this stuff. Um, so then they kind of, you know, opened it up to [00:32:10] the, to the general dentists. And there were some very good general dentists that that took it on early on and do some fantastic [00:32:15] cases and work. And so, yeah, I think if you go to other places, [00:32:20] you know, Invisalign was really only opened up to specialists, but because in the UK, I don’t know if it’s our [00:32:25] training, I don’t know, as you said, the top 1 or 2 that get in um, and do it. And um, so [00:32:30] yeah, it’s an interesting kind of you look at those egos and, but then you look at those cases and you’re like, well, you [00:32:35] know, and I’ve gone to conferences and I’ve got, you know, they’ve shown the classic example I find is [00:32:40] the missing low fives and the E’s in place, and they’ve done these fantastic mechanics. [00:32:45] Put Tad’s in to realise that sick, you know, it’s a class one case, for example.

Zaid Esmail: And they’ve done [00:32:50] all that and you look at the end result and go, yeah, but now your upper seven’s completely unopposed. [00:32:55] So you’ve medialized the six, medialized the seven, pat yourself on the back. Fantastic result. Beautiful class [00:33:00] one got rid of the missing and you look at and go, yeah, but now that someone’s unerupted unopposed, [00:33:05] it’s not doing anything. What have you achieved? But because there’s so much enticing, the ego of [00:33:10] this is what I can do. I think just because you could doesn’t mean you you should. And so I’m very, [00:33:15] you know, I like to think myself. I’m quite a pragmatic clinician. Um, I also think, um, [00:33:20] I think the, the classic daughter test, I think that was probably one of the reasons why I went into orthodontics. [00:33:25] I think the, you know, would I want to have. And at the time when I was doing my, you know, [00:33:30] end of, um, finishing dental school, it was the whole veneer dance [00:33:35] and all, all that aspect of it. And I was like, I don’t know if I’d want that. And actually with ortho. Yeah, [00:33:40] do ortho. So I think that’s part of the reason why I got into it. There was a bit of risk averse or not, but um. [00:33:45]

Payman Langroudi: Have you tried, um, dental monitoring?

Zaid Esmail: I have, and they [00:33:50] keep kind of contacting me about it. I can see that the benefits, um, [00:33:55] I think from my view is the with, with my aligner cases. Right. [00:34:00] I, you see some aligner plans that come back and they’re like 60, 70, 80 aligners, like likely that [00:34:05] they’re not. Your patients will lose compliance halfway through. They’re going to lose tracking halfway through. So most of my kind of plans [00:34:10] to try and limit it as like I’m doing 30 to 40 of the first set. And I always accept I’m going to do a refinement [00:34:15] because I’m breaking down the tooth movements and being able to, to rescan. Um, so then my view is if I [00:34:20] know within 6 to 8 weeks I see them after fit, I’ll see them at 6 to 8 weeks. And I know within that point whether they’re wearing [00:34:25] it or not. And if they are, I can leave them eight, nine, ten weeks and they can come back in at any point. And, um, [00:34:30] and the ones that I’m a bit hesitant at, I’ll see them at 6 to 8 weeks. But I think the other reason why I, um, [00:34:35] didn’t kind of go down that route is because then I just felt like it was a bit too much like [00:34:40] smiledirectclub, you know, here are your liners and see see you later. And so [00:34:45] I thought if you provide a service.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got to bear in mind something that I, my my son went [00:34:50] through traditional orthodontics and my daughter went through Invisalign and Dental monitoring. [00:34:55] And from the patient perspective, the [00:35:00] fewer appointments, the better. Yeah, it’s a pain in the ass, man. You’re like my son. [00:35:05] I had to keep on going to Harley Street. You paying? Paying for congestion zone parking? Yeah. [00:35:10] Every eight weeks for for a little, you know, tweak.

Zaid Esmail: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:35:15] but we’re dentists, right? We think the number of minutes you spend, the number of hours you spend [00:35:20] with that patient is what they value. Not necessarily man. No.

Zaid Esmail: And I’ve always [00:35:25] said I’ve, I’ve always been meaning to kind of go down the route of okay, I’ll give the patient the option. You can [00:35:30] come every eight weeks or you can have Dental monitoring. And I tried the Invisalign one, the virtual care. And I just found [00:35:35] that I was I’m I try and delegate what I can, but I thought it’ll just be [00:35:40] by the time I then train the nurse to do it. It’ll end up me going through it again anyway, and I just thought it was [00:35:45] just an extra thing, uh, for me to do. And so I still might look [00:35:50] into it. I think the, I also think dental monitoring itself, I think it’s great. And some things [00:35:55] that might be doing with potential scans from being able to do a refinement from [00:36:00] the photos, I think that’s going to be a game changer, and I think I might look into it, but I was never a full early [00:36:05] adopter with with certain things. I kind of want to let other people get their fingers burnt and, and [00:36:10] then pick it up a bit later on. Um, but also, like I said, I [00:36:15] like seeing my patients every day. I like to getting to know them and chatting to them. And, you know, it’s it’s [00:36:20] providing that service. And, you know, okay, there might be some patients that that don’t want to come in and maybe they’re not the right [00:36:25] person to come to me.

Zaid Esmail: I’m not there just to straighten their teeth. I’m there. I’m a provider. I feel like I’m providing a service [00:36:30] for them and getting to know them. And purely from a, um, because why else do [00:36:35] I do the job? It’s, you know, obviously it pays well, but there’s an element of I want to see patients [00:36:40] every 6 to 8 weeks. I want to, you know, especially ones that you like. You get to know them. You have a laugh and joke with them. Actually, the appointments are quite a [00:36:45] nice appointment to have in because it breaks up the day a bit. Sort of fix, fix, fix and have a nice little chat with them, [00:36:50] check their you know. And so I think that aspect of it is why I haven’t fully jumped into it as well, because I just, [00:36:55] you know, whether they may not want to see me, but I quite like seeing them just for a catch up and [00:37:00] see how they are getting to know them. And I think that’s because otherwise if we [00:37:05] are treating patients, you know, otherwise it’s just objects isn’t [00:37:10] it? So I think for me it’s it’s why I like this, why I go to work. Um, [00:37:15] it’s the best part and the worst part because you do get that one patient that.

Payman Langroudi: For [00:37:20] instance, it’s the bit I miss the most is the conversations with the patients I stopped in 2012. [00:37:25] Yeah, I missed that.

Zaid Esmail: Yeah you do.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t think he missed the teeth.

Zaid Esmail: No no no. [00:37:30] But that’s why is quite nice because actually you can have a nice chat with them while you’re busy doing stuff. And [00:37:35] you can you talk to the parents when they’re there. But if it’s if it’s the kids or the patients, [00:37:40] it’s only them. It’s hard to have the conversation when you’re adjusting the face. So it’s much easier to have a conversation when you’re when you’re [00:37:45] doing their their aligners.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about the academy with [00:37:50] particular reference to I’d like to kind of understand [00:37:55] where do generalists go wrong with ortho commonly and what a common [00:38:00] sort of unlocks.

Zaid Esmail: Yeah, I think the biggest thing is you. [00:38:05] You don’t know what you don’t know. And I think if you haven’t done a plan. The classic [00:38:10] example. And that’s where six months whilst patients ran into trouble. Two of two full [00:38:15] unit buccal segment relationship. I know as soon as you straighten that up you’re going to get an increased overjet. Right. But [00:38:20] not all dentists know that. So certainly now the patient has gone from crowded teeth to having the stonking overjet [00:38:25] not consented for it wasn’t picked up, I probably would have got the same result. [00:38:30] The difference I’d explain to him at the start and I said, we can manage it this way take two teeth out or [00:38:35] surgery, or accept it or whatever. But if you say at the end it’s an excuse beforehand, [00:38:40] it’s consent. And I think that’s where they’re in trouble is not knowing that other aspects [00:38:45] is, um, Invisalign clean checks as great as Invisalign is, I can show you any clincheck [00:38:50] that will show any movement occurring. It’s knowing the predictability of the movement. It’s knowing what [00:38:55] it can achieve because it can lull you to a into a false sense of security where you should see this plan, that you’re moving these teeth in [00:39:00] this position and you’re doing all this and then yet it’s not happening in the mouth. And it’s like, well, there’s that disconnect. And why [00:39:05] is that?

Payman Langroudi: So you can tell before you start that that particular movement is unlikely [00:39:10] to happen just from the way, the way the clinic is saying it’s going to happen.

Zaid Esmail: We know the predictability of certain moves with aligners, [00:39:15] and I know from looking at what.

Payman Langroudi: Are we talking about rotations and things.

Zaid Esmail: So yeah, rotation like very, [00:39:20] very heavily rotated teeth, particularly canines. Um small lateral sizes. We [00:39:25] always lose tracking lateral incisors. Um we know closing spaces. So I [00:39:30] do extraction cases with aligners, but I add extra things into our power arms or larger attachments or over [00:39:35] overcorrect certain movements. Um, we know intrusion works better than extrusion. [00:39:40] So if we’re trying to correct an AOB, we’d want to try more in through the post instead of just purely try and extrude [00:39:45] the anteriors. Um, so it’s kind of it’s knowing and I know that from looking at the patient’s [00:39:50] mouth, what the predictably is and, and being able to visualise it. So then it’s then [00:39:55] transferring that to okay. It’s saying to the patient, we can do aligners. [00:40:00] This is what we’ll get to. And either you’re happy with that and that’s absolutely fine. Or if not we can put a sectional [00:40:05] fix for a few months at the end. Right. But it’s explained at the start and I can do the sectional fix. So [00:40:10] even when I do aligner, when I have some dentists come to me, oh, I only want to do a line. I only do Invisalign. [00:40:15] My academy, it’s broad breadth, it’s fixed and it’s aligners. And you get a diploma, you can take it as [00:40:20] far as as much or as little as you want, but you have to have a knowledge, I feel, [00:40:25] of at least putting a sectional fixed on to be able to get out of trouble for that patient, that [00:40:30] that lateral incisor didn’t quite rotate, or the lower incisor is not fully there, or the lateral sides didn’t quite extrude, [00:40:35] because you can try all these different things.

Zaid Esmail: And if the patient at that point you’re down the line, you’re kind of 12, 15, 18 months in [00:40:40] treatment. Patients lost compliance anyway. They’re starting to lose faith with you anyway. They’re not going to be wearing aligners as well as [00:40:45] they should. And yet I’ve treated some other cases where the patients were diligent with [00:40:50] them, you know, almost had a stopwatch. Over time, he had a spreadsheet of how many hours or minutes he had [00:40:55] it out for each day, and some of the results were phenomenal. So it can do fantastic stuff if it’s [00:41:00] worn well and it’s planned properly. So as the planning is the key thing, the other the other example I get was was classic [00:41:05] example is um a median diastema. So a little spacing anteriorly, just a bit of Invisalign [00:41:10] to close that space up. But if you haven’t addressed the overbite then we know space is [00:41:15] one of the things that’s going to open up again. So you want really want to put a bonded retainer on. But then there’s no clearance [00:41:20] to put bonded retainer on because if you just treat it upper arch only. So the patient then breaks the bonded retainer, the [00:41:25] space opens up again.

Zaid Esmail: And then if you haven’t planned that retention from the start again, that’s [00:41:30] where you’re going to get into trouble. So seeing the whole patient as a whole, as opposed to concentrating [00:41:35] on just that problem and knowing the limitations and knowing how far [00:41:40] you can get with each one, and it’s the planning. And so when I [00:41:45] it was I was at a friend’s wedding a couple of years ago, and I was always worrying about doing the course. I did a bit of [00:41:50] mentoring for, for another company And, uh, he’s like, why don’t you set up your own course? And [00:41:55] I was like. I don’t know if I, you know, I didn’t like the idea of having, um, booking out a conference [00:42:00] centre and. You know, people coming in and doing it, and he’s like, no, what about [00:42:05] an online one? And I was like. Oh, okay. That got me thinking. And so I thought, okay, [00:42:10] I could do this. And I set up a whole list of lectures I wanted to cover. I drew [00:42:15] in between patients. I was writing all the PowerPoints on the weekends. I was recording lectures, having it all [00:42:20] all done up there and then. But the key thing is with ortho, it’s not the [00:42:25] course, it’s the mentoring that’s with it as well. So and that’s what I provide with it. It’s all about the mentoring. [00:42:30] Um, and for the mentoring aspect, if it’s a fixed case, the photos are put up on [00:42:35] the forum.

Zaid Esmail: Every visit I would tell them what to do. The next point you get to that before you even pick up any trouble. [00:42:40] You’ve picked it up from the start where you see where the case is appropriate to treat. We, um, they put photos up [00:42:45] and they go through the plan. And there’s my therapists. Orthodontic [00:42:50] therapists are a nurse that have never touched the mouth, and they go on a four week block course [00:42:55] somewhere where they do six days of phantom head, if that, and they’re coming straight back in and putting brackets [00:43:00] on, and all I’m doing is just telling them what to do at each visit. Well, these are dentists who etch [00:43:05] and bond day in, day out. There’s no reason why they can’t do it if the plan is appropriate. [00:43:10] So and it’s interesting that sometimes come to me because I only do Invisalign. Um, what [00:43:15] is what does the CDC say about me doing fixed braces? I was like, well, that doesn’t [00:43:20] say anything about you doing fixed braces isn’t anything about you doing aligners. It’s if you’re doing aligners, orthodontics, there’s [00:43:25] no difference. Just because you’re doing aligners, it’s okay. You won’t get in trouble. No, no, no, it’s no different. You are doing orthodontics [00:43:30] and the way this country is, I can place an implant tomorrow, but if something goes wrong, I’ve got to back up my theory [00:43:35] and it’s no different with that.

Zaid Esmail: So it’s giving them the peace of mind. And I’ve got some dentists who [00:43:40] are my mentoring who do loads of cases. I probably do more cases than some orthodontists, but they still want me just to keep [00:43:45] an eye on it. And it’s the easiest thing for me in the world to do, because actually their plans are already spot on. They already know [00:43:50] what they’re doing. I’m like, yeah, that’s fine. Yeah, that’s fine, that’s fine. Yeah, just do that, that’s fine. And then I’m then giving them tips on how to be [00:43:55] more efficient in the treatment. So there’s a whole host and there’s a whole breadth of ones. People are just starting out. [00:44:00] And I love teaching. I love seeing that. And I had one of the first ones that signed up to the course. It [00:44:05] was a case. She’s like, oh my God, the patient wanted to fix. I thought it was going to be aligners. I was like, it’s fine. So I put [00:44:10] some brackets on. It’s all online, so I put some brackets onto some plastic study model, glue it on, [00:44:15] take some photos. I’ll give you feedback. She did it, I said, fine, it’s no different to that. Um, and [00:44:20] when I saw her post on Instagram that it was the first and she was so proud of it, I was like, I did that, I really [00:44:25] that was the thing that I actually I really enjoyed this, seeing them grow.

Payman Langroudi: So. So [00:44:30] take me down like total beginner hasn’t done any ortho. Have you got a program for [00:44:35] them. Yeah, yeah. And is it a different program for someone who’s done some ortho before or do you just it’s [00:44:40] the same program.

Zaid Esmail: Yeah. Because I don’t know what they’ve covered. Yeah. So if they’ve already got a diploma elsewhere then that’s [00:44:45] fine. They can go straight onto the mentoring program where they can either pay per case and I’ll just guide them from start to finish, whether [00:44:50] it’s aligners or fix appliances. Total beginner. The course is all fully online. All [00:44:55] the modules are covered so it covers fixed, it covers aligners, it covers everything. So all the and there’s even [00:45:00] procedure videos of how I do a real time model of how I do a real time model. So it covers everything from start to [00:45:05] finish. It even covers things like Ceph tracings. And also I’ll just make it as comprehensive as possible, almost [00:45:10] to the level of what I did at mammoth. Um, and for the most straightforward cases, [00:45:15] at the end of it, they’ll be able to treat it because I’m there with them. You [00:45:20] know, if it’s an extraction case of upper fours and or a functional case, then it’s it’s not rocket science doing [00:45:25] the ortho. It’s the plan behind it.

Payman Langroudi: So how long how long does it take me. How many how many modules is it.

Zaid Esmail: So [00:45:30] there’s seven modules and it’s probably about 35 to 40 hours worth of video.

Payman Langroudi: In total. [00:45:35]

Zaid Esmail: In total. But the whole point of it is I don’t want you go to some of these lectures sometimes and people, they’re [00:45:40] recording the whole thing. I was like, well, they can stop, pause, rewind as many times as you need to. I’ve written [00:45:45] loads of resources in each one, so there’s loads of extra information where to read about, but [00:45:50] the whole point is then they can go back. Right. I’ve got that bond up today. I can go back to that video and see how they did his bond up. And then [00:45:55] it’s always there, it’s always available.

Payman Langroudi: And the mentoring is extra.

Zaid Esmail: It’s included. So with with [00:46:00] a diploma you get ten cases that are included. And then you can always pay for extra cases. Um, [00:46:05] after that. So uh, I’ve tried to do it.

Payman Langroudi: So so what does it cost.

Zaid Esmail: Uh, so [00:46:10] the diploma is eight, nine, 95 at the minute. It’s including VAT. Um, because we’re not VAT registered yet [00:46:15] and we’re on the verge of, of that cost. I’ll worry about that one when that happens. And you get ten cases and [00:46:20] you do get diploma, but it’s much cheaper than the other diplomas around because partly because it’s purely [00:46:25] online, you know. And when I did lecturing for other courses, I spent the whole time in [00:46:30] a room with 7 or 8 people that have come all over the UK, giving up 3 or 4 days of their [00:46:35] of their time and clinics and being away from families in a hotel. And I’m just in front of a PowerPoint the whole [00:46:40] time, and the only practicals was sticking brackets onto plastic teeth. It’s not like implants where you have to learn [00:46:45] to do the skills in that aspect. It’s literally the planning and practising on patients. You know, my [00:46:50] M.O. I learned from practising on patients. It was never practising on phantom head or doing [00:46:55] pigs models or anything like that. It was on actual patients. So, uh, yeah. [00:47:00] So they’d be able to kind of start from day one. And because then it’s online, there is no cohort like you’ve got to start September, [00:47:05] you got to start in April. You can start as soon as as soon as you want.

Zaid Esmail: It’s all automated. As soon as you sign up you get going straight [00:47:10] away. And I try and do it at the minute I’m keeping. I don’t know if it’s the right thing or not, but I keep it personal so everyone [00:47:15] that has the signs up has my WhatsApp number. I’ll get a message. And I was like, what should I order? What [00:47:20] should I do? Because for me, I’m I’m doing it to to kind of get to know these people. [00:47:25] And then because then I get to know them, I then get to know what plan they’re [00:47:30] able to do because I know what level they’re at. You might have two different dentists that come in with the same plan. [00:47:35] It might be different. I actually maybe refer this one out for one or the other one. Oh no. So Payman is really good. He’ll [00:47:40] know what he needs to do. It’s absolutely fine. He can treat that patient because then I get to know them, and [00:47:45] because I get to know them, I get to know what they’re capable of. And for me, seeing them grow from the start to where they [00:47:50] are is is what I enjoy out of it. And my view is that dentists are going to be doing it anyway. They might as well do it properly. [00:47:55] Um, they’re the gatekeepers. They’re the ones for that.

Payman Langroudi: For that nine grand, I [00:48:00] get the all the education and ten cases. You said.

Zaid Esmail: Ten cases and a diploma.

Payman Langroudi: And. [00:48:05] Yeah. So. So what does that mean? The diploma.

Zaid Esmail: So you get diploma orthodontics just so you can [00:48:10] you’ve got something that you’ve can show patients that you’ve got a diploma.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And [00:48:15] then if I want you to mentor me for ten more cases how much is that.

Zaid Esmail: So I do [00:48:20] different packages. So do 350 per per case or 900 for three. Or I do monthly subscription. [00:48:25] So I have um, it’s just under a thousand a month for unlimited cases. So you can do lots of cases [00:48:30] then. Yeah a thousand a month. Um, or you can do two cases a month which roll over [00:48:35] for £490. So it depends on how many cases you do you need to pay per, per, per case or [00:48:40] the unlimited plan. So I got some insights on the unlimited plan. And they’re very, very [00:48:45] good. They do a lot of cases and it’s um, I had I remember having a meeting with someone, they’re [00:48:50] like, that’s not unlimited. I was like, yeah, but it’s if you’re on the unlimited plan, you’re doing so much ortho, [00:48:55] you’re getting so good at it, you almost don’t need me as much. It’s my job is just to keep an eye on it and [00:49:00] just go, yeah, that’s fine, that’s fine. What? The ones who’s just starting out, it’s. If anything, it’s more time because I got to spend explaining [00:49:05] everything. And it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting.

Zaid Esmail: And the reason why I did that those videos is that it’s oh, how do I do a quick like, oh, [00:49:10] watch that video on module six, how to do it quickly. So it’s not. So I’m spending I did that course [00:49:15] purely as a, as an adjunct to the to the mentoring.

Payman Langroudi: And this is all before [00:49:20] the days of AI. So you had to get like a software guy to help you program [00:49:25] it.

Zaid Esmail: Yeah. Yeah. So I’m actually really proud of the website because I made it. It’s all automated. So anyone can sign up, [00:49:30] pay the money, and they get instant access to the to the course, they get signed up straight away. They get the mentoring [00:49:35] forums all done. There’s videos on how to do. They get an email with a video of how to onboard. And so I spent the time [00:49:40] making it. So it’s fully automated.

Payman Langroudi: So taking a long time to put all of it together.

Zaid Esmail: Yeah. Yeah. But I’ve [00:49:45] never been good at sitting still. So I’ve always had a project on the go. I’ve always done something throughout my [00:49:50] career alongside it, because I am so bad at sitting still at home. When I finish [00:49:55] work, I have to be doing something.

Payman Langroudi: So how long did it take you?

Zaid Esmail: About a year.

Payman Langroudi: Well, it’s still [00:50:00] pretty good.

Zaid Esmail: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, about a year. Um, so I probably started it in summer last year, and I kind [00:50:05] of launched it in April. Um, the bit that was a lot of work was getting everything ready for the diploma, because it was [00:50:10] kind of the learning objectives and the assessment criterias and how to set that all up to get it through edu cal. That was. [00:50:15] But I think then it just gives it a bit of validation that it’s actually a good course as opposed to because there are so [00:50:20] many online courses nowadays.

Payman Langroudi: So you had you went through that, that process. How did you get [00:50:25] your first customer?

Zaid Esmail: Um, so I had some dentists that followed me that I did mentor on a, [00:50:30] um, previously. So I kind of I tried to, um, be pragmatic. [00:50:35] It’s such a small world. I don’t want to annoy anyone. Um, but I had [00:50:40] when I kind of did an Instagram page put on my Facebook, I was I was only doing it. Can I, can I join you? I [00:50:45] was like, yeah, sure. Um, and then, um, so that’s where I’m at now is kind of where [00:50:50] do I get people from? And I think eventually it’ll be word of mouth. It’s getting and I want [00:50:55] it to be word of mouth, you know, and because I want it to be all I might get to that stage where I think, actually, we’re closed now [00:51:00] because I’ve got so many dentists on there, I don’t want to lose that personal factor. Um, [00:51:05] but the dentistry show, so did dentistry show in Birmingham. Um, and did the recent one [00:51:10] in, in London. So probably had the most from, from there to kind of get the word out there doing a bit on Instagram. [00:51:15] Um, I’m not very good at social media, so I do feel like I have to maybe get someone else in for [00:51:20] that. Um, but at the same time, I don’t want it to grow too big. Too, too big. So. But, [00:51:25] uh, yeah, it’s just kind of getting the word out there slowly, really. On on that. I’ve had some, um, dentists [00:51:30] come to me. Where on this Facebook group. Someone was trying to give advice or help, um, I did there’s a [00:51:35] authentic advice for for GPS Facebook group that I set up and purely [00:51:40] just as yeah, free advice for them because I just quite like giving advice.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:51:45] how much of your weeks taken up by the education? Um, is it evenings? Is it?

Zaid Esmail: Um, [00:51:50] it’s every day, but sometimes it will be half an hour. Sometimes it’ll be [00:51:55] an hour. It’s in between patients. So again, when my nurse is cleaning up, I do my notes or I see a therapist. [00:52:00] I’m again, I’m not like, we’re not very good. I have to be doing something. I’ll go on there and check. And all [00:52:05] evenings I’ve had a really, really busy day at work or I haven’t had a chance to do that. Then it’s evenings or weekends. [00:52:10] Um, so.

Payman Langroudi: But I do work five days a week. Four.

Zaid Esmail: So [00:52:15] Fridays is reserved for the golf course? Um, [00:52:20] yeah. So yeah, do four days a week. Um, but for busy days and, and it just gives me a bit more time [00:52:25] to kind of do other things that I want to do. And, um, I’d rather do, I could probably do five [00:52:30] days worth of work in four days. Um, and I just think it’s more when I’m that When I’m at work, [00:52:35] I’m at work. I’m full on straight in. And then, um, yeah. [00:52:40]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get on to the darker part of the pod.

Zaid Esmail: Yeah. [00:52:45]

Payman Langroudi: Firstly, what’s been the darkest day in this journey?

Zaid Esmail: Um, so [00:52:50] I think the I’ve always been quite good at communicating [00:52:55] with patients and sussing out patients that might be in trouble. So I’ve always done very well [00:53:00] to avoid big problems. Uh, and [00:53:05] then you think when you become a specialist and you’re ten years into, you know, being a specialist, you think those [00:53:10] days are over, right? And there’s probably two things that come to mind. One, that’s [00:53:15] clinical, one that’s non-clinical. So the clinical, um, it [00:53:20] was probably about six months ago. And I had a patient that I was I do a lot of [00:53:25] fixed functionals. So these are little springs which go onto the fixed brace. And I was re [00:53:30] removing um the she finished up course of the treatment and I was removing [00:53:35] the fixed functional and as I was trying to pull it out of the tube, slightly slipped slightly, and [00:53:40] then I lost grip of it and was in the patient’s mouth. The patient kind of got up, and normally they kind of take [00:53:45] it out of the mouth and go, here it goes, she goes, I swallowed it and I’m like, what do you mean [00:53:50] you swallowed it like she’s a little girl, 12 year old girl, very petite. And the spring [00:53:55] is about two inches long and, you know, half a millimetre. It’s half half centimetre [00:54:00] in width. And I’m there like a little bit in denial, thinking she can’t [00:54:05] have swallowed it.

Zaid Esmail: I was like, are you sure you swallowed it? Are you sure you didn’t, you know, inhale [00:54:10] it or anything else? She goes, no, no, I swallowed it. I was like, okay, so did the rest of the adjustment. And then and [00:54:15] then the patient went and looked at me. She goes, are you going to do anything? I was like, what [00:54:20] do I do? So I looked at the um, the Bupa guidelines on, on ingestion, inhalation. [00:54:25] It’s kind of like they’ve got to go to A&E. And I looked at the boss guidelines. Um, [00:54:30] and it was like, if it’s beyond a certain size or it’s sharp, then you should take them to A&E. [00:54:35] But I kind of measured it out because we had the other, the other springs to kind of measure, like what is [00:54:40] less than that? And I was kind of almost trying to find the guideline that suited my bias. Yeah. [00:54:45] And then it was the end of the clip. It was a Thursday. It was then nearing the end of the second to last [00:54:50] patient. Patient went and and then I was driving home and [00:54:55] I’m thinking, you know, you crapped yourself. You think, what are the things that could go wrong? [00:55:00] And I was saying, should I have told them to go to A&E? Should I have not? What should [00:55:05] you know? What? What do I do? And I got home and I just had the worst night’s sleep.

Zaid Esmail: Couldn’t sleep that Thursday. [00:55:10] And normally Thursday nights. I look forward to the weekend. And I’m playing golf on Friday. [00:55:15] And then I was like, I don’t know what to do. So I called the the [00:55:20] A&E, um, on call, uh, near the near the practice. And I said, what do you suggest? [00:55:25] And they said, oh, they should come in. I said, okay, now I’m trying to find another bias of all. How can [00:55:30] I avoid this? And I can’t do it. So I call the practice. Can you give me the patient’s number? Called the [00:55:35] patient’s mum. Um. She answered, and she came with dad. The appointment before I [00:55:40] explained. She obviously she knew, um. And I was like, how is she? She goes, oh no, she’s fine. She’s gone to [00:55:45] school today. So my head was okay. She’s fine. Does she need. I said, look, I think [00:55:50] it’s okay. The guidelines say this, but I think it’s worth going to A&E to get it checked out. [00:55:55] And then she goes, oh, that’d be quite difficult. I’m like, what? She goes, well, you [00:56:00] don’t know this, but she’s going through a lot of anxiety recently. It’s the first day she’s actually been able to go to school [00:56:05] today.

Payman Langroudi: Oh dear.

Zaid Esmail: So I was like, okay, well maybe when she gets back from school, maybe just go and get and [00:56:10] get it checked out. But and I never give my number to anyone. But I said this is my mum number. Please just [00:56:15] give me an update. So the golf course playing golf just had the worst round of golf of my life. Just because [00:56:20] I just couldn’t concentrate, couldn’t think. Um, and then, uh, got a message from [00:56:25] her later on and was like, oh, it’s all fine. It’s past the. I think the pyloric sphincter is what they’re worried about. [00:56:30] It’s past it. Definitely inhale it and it will just pass through. And it’s nothing to worry about. At [00:56:35] that point I was like, oh, thank God for that. So yeah, I sent flowers and like a little teddy [00:56:40] to, uh, to her. But that was. And you think, you know, you think you get past it, you think it’s to the point [00:56:45] where you know everything. You you can manage that patient. You can, you know, you’re not at a point where you need the [00:56:50] money. You need the patience to go ahead. You’re quite comfortable in your career and you just think nothing can. You know, I’m [00:56:55] I’m at that point and then and then suddenly that hits you and that’s like so that that was hard. But [00:57:00] I think what I learned from that is I probably should have handled it straight away. I was a little bit in denial. I probably [00:57:05] should have said to him that this has happened, maybe just go to A&E to get it checked out. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, [00:57:10] why why do you think you didn’t just.

Zaid Esmail: I think I was trying to in my head, [00:57:15] I was trying to brush it over. I was like, it’s fine, I’ll be all right. Um, and, uh, and I [00:57:20] also didn’t want the hassle of them going to A&E and stuff, and actually, what I should have done, [00:57:25] I said, like, hey, I’ll pay for your taxi, I’ll pay for whatever it is. Just go. And I probably would do that now, but also it’s now. I’ve never been in that situation [00:57:30] before, so I felt like I didn’t just almost kind of fogged, [00:57:35] you know, didn’t know what to look. Even then, I didn’t even know what I did on the next patient. I was just kind of like, [00:57:40] hang on, this is, um, never happened before. And, uh. And. Yeah, because the guidelines [00:57:45] also the boss one said, actually, if it’s smaller than a certain size, then it’s fine. [00:57:50] Um, and so when it came to taking her brace off, obviously she was very anxious because [00:57:55] she thought was going to swallow something. Um, but they were very good about it. And, and she and she was fine. And, [00:58:00] um, so yeah, that was, that was what? And then the other, the non-clinical [00:58:05] is a bit of backstory. I invented a little eruptor device. It’s a [00:58:10] very small, um, uh, kind of my I was for partially [00:58:15] erupted cases. I was getting to the point where whenever you have a partially erupted tooth, um, you [00:58:20] can’t really put the bracket where you want to put it, so you kind of put it as high up as you can. You bring it down a bit and [00:58:25] then you got to repeat it two, three times before the tooth comes down, before you can put the bracket in the right position.

Zaid Esmail: So normally it’s canines, [00:58:30] um, come through or impacted canines that you’ve brought through through an expose and bond. [00:58:35] So it’s getting very frustrated with these kids. And I thought I’ve got to find something about it. And I had this idea I was like, what if I can do this? [00:58:40] I kind of made a little prototype, did it, and actually started, um, worked really well. And [00:58:45] then I was like, okay, I’m I can invent something. You know, I thought I was going to be able to retire on this. And, [00:58:50] uh, uh, so I kind of went down that route of manufacturing, approaching different companies [00:58:55] to kind of sell and distribute it, um, and kind of getting the patent process going. The whole patent [00:59:00] process is not. And now I realise why. So it’s so hard to get something [00:59:05] to the market because the cost of the lawyers, the cost of the patent process, the cost of all that is, is ridiculous. [00:59:10] And this is it’s not particularly expensive and it’s not every case needs it. It’s quite it’s quite niche. So [00:59:15] anyway, I was that was all doing well. I was doing all right with it. I was kind of getting getting the word out there. Um, [00:59:20] and so had distributors in all parts of the world. Uh, and then suddenly. What? The German distributor. [00:59:25] Uh, I get a email from him, and it’s a cease and desist [00:59:30] letter in German. So they’re trying to kind of Google.

Payman Langroudi: How did you manage to get distributors. [00:59:35]

Zaid Esmail: Um, approach them? Really? Um, so when I [00:59:40] found it, when I kind of had that idea and I hadn’t showed it worked when I was at the American Conference, I went to the big guys [00:59:45] like 3 a.m. and all them, and they weren’t they weren’t interested in it. Um, and then I found a small [00:59:50] company called Allure Orthodontics in America, and. Oh, this sounds like a good idea. Um, [00:59:55] they’ve got their own Chinese manufacturer, and they said, you can use it, and we’ll come to a deal where we would sell it in [01:00:00] the US, and we would. You’d get a royalty. And for the rest of the world, you can do what you want. [01:00:05] Um, so they I call it the smell erupted. I thought, if I’m going to do something, I want to name [01:00:10] it after myself. Um, in America, they’re like, we don’t do that anymore because of the whole demon thing aspect. They kind [01:00:15] of called it the Rapid Disrupter. I was like, fine, okay. Um, so they kind of helped me with that. So they kind of went down the route. [01:00:20] And then I just approached different distributors. So now we had a package where you can sell. I actually had my own shop. So patients [01:00:25] so people can dentists can buy it directly. And the old Facebook post here and there and whatever. [01:00:30] And um and then now sell it in the UK uh, and [01:00:35] approach different. So there was a German one, I was at a conference and one of the German guys I was chatting to, [01:00:40] um, he was like, oh, my friend’s a distributor. I’ll put you in touch with him. So [01:00:45] it kind of happened that way around.

Zaid Esmail: Um, and we’re just kind of getting we’re trying to get distributor per, per country. [01:00:50] Um, and anyway, so I thought it was all going well. We’ve got a patent pending, and this process [01:00:55] takes a long, long time. So I get the desist letter and I’m like, what [01:01:00] is this? I’m trying to use Google Translate to kind of translate it. And at the bottom of it, it was like they want [01:01:05] a fee of 500, I think like €500, €1,000 or whatever it was. And I was like, [01:01:10] well, I can’t be bothered dealing with a headache of this, you know, I don’t need it. I’ll stop distributing [01:01:15] it in Germany and pay them the fee and apologies. Uh, [01:01:20] so I get to my patent lawyer and he’s like, no, no, no. I’m like, what do you mean? He’s like, [01:01:25] they’re asking €500 per pack sold, and there’s ten packets. [01:01:30] There might even be per piece sold. I think we only sold, like, I don’t know, [01:01:35] 200 packs wasn’t a huge amount. And you know, when you start doing that, I’m thinking what like [01:01:40] and then I’m thinking, um, so that’s what they wanted to kind of make it go away. And I was [01:01:45] thinking like, no, because it’s made very little money. [01:01:50] Um, and I just put it into my own limited company from Workwise. So it was kind of linked with everything [01:01:55] that I’m earning from the practice. And I’m like, so that was [01:02:00] a real dark day. I think, what the hell do I do here? Um, so he recommended [01:02:05] a German patent lawyer, and I was like, I’m going to go to court in Germany and like, [01:02:10] find all this stuff.

Zaid Esmail: And so it turns out there’s, um, a device that they had [01:02:15] they had patent in Germany. It’s similar, but it’s not quite. And it’s, um. [01:02:20] But it never went to market, so it never existed. Never went to market. It was just had this pattern for around seven, eight years ago. So [01:02:25] the patent pattern was very, very good, actually. He was like, don’t worry about it. And then he then countersued, as [01:02:30] lawyers do, of well, actually your patent shouldn’t be granted because of X, Y, z. And it’s [01:02:35] very different in these reasons. And actually we will countersue if you take this any further or, or [01:02:40] we would settle. So it turns out they kind of wanted a payment for it. Um, and they wanted [01:02:45] like a royalty. And it was this kind of looming over my head the whole time. And I kind of then stopped because what [01:02:50] happens in another country that I don’t know about and, and stuff. So in the end it was they [01:02:55] wanted a yearly fee. And then the distributor in Germany was like, well, actually it’s um, [01:03:00] you know, it only sells a bit if you don’t want it in Germany. It’s fine. It’s not worth the royalty for the [01:03:05] things I kind of said. We’re happy to do it as a percentage and never really heard back from it, and it fizzled out, but at [01:03:10] that point then made me realise how lucky we are to do something like dentistry, because there’s no indemnity to cover [01:03:15] that, you know? And while we. What’s the worst that can happen if patient sues? Whatever. And you realise [01:03:20] that actually. Then you’ve got indemnity, you’ve got cover, you’ve got insurance.

Payman Langroudi: So that was well, [01:03:25] well I mean there is product liability insurance. Yeah. So someone someone uses an enlightened [01:03:30] product and dies. Yeah. We’ve got insurance for that. Um, but [01:03:35] the cease and desist, the way that works is from the moment of receiving that letter, [01:03:40] any further sales, they, they, they’re taking royalties on. If [01:03:45] you don’t say something, do something. Yeah. So, you know, you could have just stopped there [01:03:50] and then and, and not paid them a penny. Yeah.

Zaid Esmail: But that was I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: How much money do you put into [01:03:55] it.

Zaid Esmail: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Because patenting itself is quite was it worldwide pattern. [01:04:00]

Zaid Esmail: Well, it’s still it’s still pending. This is 3 or 4 years ago and it’s still pending. So, um, [01:04:05] patent fees initially probably about for the UK about 10-K and then worldwide it’s probably [01:04:10] going to work out about five grand a country. So it’s almost you’ve got to just limit to what you do. And I’m even at the point now where I’m like, [01:04:15] do I even take it? Because every month I’ll get or 2 or 3 months I’ll get an invoice [01:04:20] in the patent. Oh, you need to pay this and pay that. Um, so I don’t think it’s made the [01:04:25] profit wise. It hasn’t made, you know, a huge amount because the the fees ongoing. Um, [01:04:30] but I’ve already had a Chinese distributor make a copy to the approach. [01:04:35] Tock. And said, we’re doing this and it’s basically my product and actually even use the, the clinical picture [01:04:40] that I’ve used in that email. So for me, I just see that, well, that’s a compliment they thought was good enough to actually copy [01:04:45] themselves. Um, so I kind of sent that to my lawyer. Oh, 3500 sent a cease and desist letter [01:04:50] to them. I’m like, oh, you know, I can’t be bothered. Like, you know, I’m not doing this for the money. I’m doing it because it helped her. [01:04:55] And occasionally you get the name gets recognised at a conference. Oh, I use it a lot. And you know, and I see it on a Facebook [01:05:00] post sometimes someone’s like I’ve been using these are amazing. They really help with these cases. So for me that’s it. That was lovely. [01:05:05] That was kind of my leaving my stamp.

Payman Langroudi: To describe it. It’s like a small [01:05:10] sort of yeah.

Zaid Esmail: It’s a little button and it has a little offset where [01:05:15] you put the wire on. So basically you’re using the full activation of your of your NITI wires. So a NITI [01:05:20] wire, the way teeth move is especially at the start with alignment. The night tower has shaped [01:05:25] memory. So it wants to bring it back into that position. So you’re activating that wire to bring it back. So where the [01:05:30] wire is actually ligated is about half a centimetre above where you’ve [01:05:35] put the brackets.

Payman Langroudi: On an arm, kind of.

Zaid Esmail: An arm exactly on a lever arm. Um, and so when [01:05:40] I first did a few cases, um, I’d patient come back in and booked in as an emergency and I’m there obviously [01:05:45] crapping myself. And they come back in because it’s like, oh, the two storey down. Like it was literally bringing down within [01:05:50] like ten days or two weeks.

Payman Langroudi: And most golden moments, those things, those those times when stuff [01:05:55] like that happens, I think back to individual patients. We tried stuff on. Yeah, for me it would have been friends and family [01:06:00] actually trying stuff on, um, golden moments. Yeah. And you think, wow, I’m on [01:06:05] to something.

Zaid Esmail: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And but you’re right. Totally different to commercialising. [01:06:10]

Zaid Esmail: Yeah. Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Totally different I mean, I’d say the idea is maybe like 5% [01:06:15] of the problem. You know, like, um, and patenting such a pain [01:06:20] in the ass, like, we’ve done things like not published research [01:06:25] so that our competitors can’t read what we’ve discovered. [01:06:30]

Zaid Esmail: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then you get dentists saying, where’s the research? Yeah, yeah. And when you [01:06:35] tell them that we’ve done some research but we haven’t published it, they don’t believe that. Yeah, yeah. And when you [01:06:40] break it to dentists sometimes that the research is for marketing purposes rather than for [01:06:45] learning purposes. You know, that becomes like a really weird thing [01:06:50] because dentists been trained, you know, you said you said I’m sceptical. Yeah. And [01:06:55] you should be. Should be. Yeah. Because, you know, us companies are trying to sell you stuff. Yeah. [01:07:00] Dentists have been trained to say, where’s the study here. Yeah. And then companies know that. [01:07:05] So there’s a bunch of studies for marketing purposes. They’ve done. They don’t they don’t understand sometimes. Often when [01:07:10] you go to institutions to get studies done, the guy will do it in seven different ways, and [01:07:15] then you’ll publish the one that suited your your purpose best. Um, [01:07:20] but for us, the A study has always been to find out the answer to a question. And [01:07:25] once I found out the answer to that question, I don’t want to tell the world the answer to that question yet. It took [01:07:30] me thousands of pounds and and effort to get the answer to that question. That’s [01:07:35] for me. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a funny thing, isn’t it? It is.

Zaid Esmail: It is. And [01:07:40] it’s. Yeah. Um, and I suppose it’s. And then people say, well, what’s your next idea? [01:07:45] I was like, I kind of I’m not an idea. It’s just a fluke. It was I came across I was a clinical problem that I [01:07:50] had and and it helped me.

Payman Langroudi: Even if you have one good idea in your lifetime, it’s brilliant. Right? [01:07:55] You’ve you’ve moved the conversation forward by one. Good idea.

Zaid Esmail: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And [01:08:00] you get some. Oh, I do it different. That’s fine. I don’t care. You know, you there’s different ways to do things. And there’s some people [01:08:05] that like it and some people love it and that’s absolutely fine. Others that think it’s and that’s and that’s what you’re going [01:08:10] to get because you’re going to get those sceptics. And then um, and I think also with, with ortho, we’ve, [01:08:15] there’s been a lot of stuff, you know, the whole when Damon was first out that it can treat [01:08:20] everything non extraction and it can improve airways and it can do all these things that it can grow a bone. And I think [01:08:25] where orthodontics has had almost its fingers burnt from that of well [01:08:30] you know it’s just a bracket you know fast braces. It’s just a bracket. It’s all [01:08:35] about the the clinician, the plan. You know, the classic thing is the tooth doesn’t [01:08:40] know what’s on. It doesn’t know it’s got Damon bracket doesn’t know it’s got an Invisalign attachment on it. It’s just how [01:08:45] you deliver that. And so where all these claims are coming. And now the whole airway thing is a big thing in [01:08:50] orthodontics, whether we actually help airways or not.

Zaid Esmail: And um, so it’s [01:08:55] I’m sceptical. And like I said you should be sceptical, but [01:09:00] when sometimes all things come to me and go, well, this because this because it moves, it doesn’t, [01:09:05] all it’s doing is just bringing the tooth down so you can put the bracket in [01:09:10] the right place, then you can do the rest of the movement. Like I’m not reinventing the wheel and like, are you going to intrude [01:09:15] the other teeth? I like intrusions, one of the hardest movements to do in orthodontics. So you think that this thing is [01:09:20] going to intrude all the other teeth and not extrude this canine which wants to erupt in the first place? So yeah. [01:09:25] But anyway, I was like, well, you know, it’s there if you want to use it. And if not, then absolutely fine. You know, I’m [01:09:30] not I don’t need you to. You know, it’s not for my money. It’s not for retiring. It’s just there. If it helps you, great. If it doesn’t [01:09:35] move on before this.

Payman Langroudi: What would you have to do? You have to keep keep on changing the position [01:09:40] of the.

Zaid Esmail: Yeah. So I put a bracket on I tried all sorts of things. I put bracket on and put the wire above the [01:09:45] bracket to get an extra little bit of activation, and then it comes down a bit and then next time reposition doing [01:09:50] the same thing again slightly higher up. The problem is you put the bracket as gingival as you can so it [01:09:55] comes down. But because it’s the bracket is so gingival the oral hygiene hasn’t been great. Even the tooth’s come down. [01:10:00] The gingiva hasn’t moved because the gingiva is inflamed. Oh no. So then you end up putting like bends in a tight wire or [01:10:05] trying to do trying different things and all sorts of stuff. And I thought, it’s got to be an easy way. I just literally need the wire to go up there. So [01:10:10] some would, you know, you go to America and I go, oh no, I just cut the gum away and put a bracket on. I was like, well, you [01:10:15] could you could do that, but I don’t want to know about my patients unnecessarily. So. Yeah. So it was kind of that I was like, there’s got to be [01:10:20] an easier way to do this. Um, and I just woke up one morning and went, I think I’ve got an idea. [01:10:25]

Zaid Esmail: I was driving to work and I was like, I called my mate, who’s a lab tech at guy’s, uh, Nick, who’s a fantastic guy. [01:10:30] And I was like, can you make me a couple of these prototypes? This is what I’m planning on on doing because, yeah, sure, [01:10:35] it comes up. Um, so I went to guy’s for a bit, caught up with him, maybe for like 5 or 6 of them. Tried [01:10:40] on a couple of patients. Um, and, yeah, it just worked. And the first one actually came [01:10:45] back in two weeks later with an emergency. And the emergency was the wire sticking out the back because it’s brought it down so quickly. [01:10:50] Yeah. So I was like, okay, this works. This is a good problem. Um, and uh, so [01:10:55] then I kind of documented a few cases and that kind of grew, uh, grew [01:11:00] from there. But like I said, it’s not going to move the needle on orthodontics. It’s there to help people out if they want to. But it’s [01:11:05] kind of that I’ve done something, it’s quite nice and to get recognised every now and again. It’s, you know, it’s it’s very lovely [01:11:10] um, for that. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: If someone wants to, uh, [01:11:15] look at your program, where can they go.

Zaid Esmail: On the website? It’s online. Northants academy. [01:11:20] Co.uk. Um, we’ve got an Instagram page online also. Um, uh, online [01:11:25] Academy is is the tag. Um, but yeah. On there or I’m on Facebook, [01:11:30] I’m more than happy to contact me, message me, DM me. Like I said, it’s personal. So they can just they’ve got [01:11:35] to find out information and just drop me a message. Um, on Facebook, Instagram, whatever. Um, [01:11:40] and I’m more than happy to kind of talk them, talk them through it.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. [01:11:45] Well, I’ve enjoyed this man. Learnt a lot.

Zaid Esmail: I’ve enjoyed.

Payman Langroudi: It. Learnt a lot. Um. Final questions. [01:11:50] What comes to mind if I say your favourite education, like your favourite lecture [01:11:55] or lecturer or course or.

Zaid Esmail: Um, I think it’s different [01:12:00] with orthodontics compared to general dentistry because we do a lot of our learning through [01:12:05] our math program. But I remember the first time I went to the American Conference was [01:12:10] huge. It was. That blew my mind. Um, so, for example, Willie Diane [01:12:15] talking about Invisalign and some of the stuff they did with Invisalign. Um, but then all the big names are there, all the [01:12:20] people that use when you’re studying and all those evenings with those papers they’d written, they [01:12:25] were all there. Mcnamara. Prophet, um, Johnston, all that stuff. So it was just going out there and [01:12:30] they’re all under the one roof, and they’re all talking about these different things. Um. It’s fantastic. Anything that Lyle [01:12:35] Johnson does, I absolutely love. He’s a an American orthodontist who has got a [01:12:40] great affinity for British sports cars. So he’s just one of those eccentric [01:12:45] Americans. And and he’s because he’s very, very pragmatic about it. So in America, [01:12:50] we talk about they do a lot of early treatment and maybe we should do some more of that in the UK. But it [01:12:55] takes it too far. And um, and the studies show actually you lose 80% of the expansion that you gain [01:13:00] at that time. So how much is it worth doing? And one of his famous quotes were. Early treatment is a practice [01:13:05] management decision, not a patient management decision. So the fact he’s in that field in America, [01:13:10] but he’s very, very pragmatic and kind of I feel like I have similar views, uh, to [01:13:15] him. Um, so anything that he does, he’s kind of going less on the lecture scene [01:13:20] now and profit will profit. Anything that he did was fantastic. So we had these big names in orthodontics. Who [01:13:25] wrote the books on um on that. So but it was never about [01:13:30] courses for them. It was all about speaking at a conference. So going to these big.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, how do you stay on top [01:13:35] of what’s going on in orthodontics? I mean.

Zaid Esmail: Conferences, yeah. Yeah, I just got back from Rio, which was [01:13:40] the World Conference. Um, so, um, it’s an excuse to travel. Um, I like going [01:13:45] to the American conferences a lot. They do it in quite big areas. They always have a big a big name or a big [01:13:50] event that goes with it. Um, so, you know, keep in touch with that European [01:13:55] conferences and flicking through the journals every now and again. But there’s also, I think, [01:14:00] I don’t know if this is me being sceptical, but I feel like sometimes there just isn’t much new stuff. It’s just reinventing [01:14:05] the wheel or or, you know, the sceptic sceptic in me go, well, I’ve got my way [01:14:10] of doing it and it works. And until I see something that’s being used different times [01:14:15] and makes sense to me because it’s really it’s biomechanics, you know, if the biomechanics work, it [01:14:20] works. So it’s quite I’m quite a logical person. I can kind of visualise [01:14:25] or see. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s such a profitable area. You [01:14:30] know, with Invisalign. What happened with Invisalign that I could imagine [01:14:35] massive resource going into it. You know, the way you know, the way business [01:14:40] works out is someone sits in front of an investor and says [01:14:45] Invisalign is worth more than every other dental company put together. So [01:14:50] let me 100 million to make the next Invisalign. Yeah, and whatever [01:14:55] that thing is. Yeah. So your area is going to be flooded with AI [01:15:00] kind of stuff? Absolutely it is. You take the [01:15:05] valuation of of a line at the word AI. There’d be 100 [01:15:10] companies raising cash based on that.

Zaid Esmail: Yeah, yeah. And even Dental monitoring including AI.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:15:15] Because it’s so, so what I’m saying is. Yeah, I know what you’re saying about, you know, it’s [01:15:20] biomechanics, but your area is going to have a lot of innovation in it. A lot, I’m sure [01:15:25] of it. Yeah. Um, of course you’ve got to be sceptical, right, to start [01:15:30] with. Yeah. Um, at the same time, you know, I feel like ortho’s going to [01:15:35] change a lot.

Zaid Esmail: Yeah, it’s an exciting time.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s an exciting time.

Zaid Esmail: I think the biggest [01:15:40] hurdle and biggest stigma we’ve got over is, like, patients come in now. They want ortho. [01:15:45] Yeah. Kids, we’re talking about kids now. They come in and they’re like, you know, you tell them you don’t need a brace. They start crying. Well, 20 years ago, [01:15:50] you told me they started crying. So it’s the fact that it’s just become a norm has become a rite of passage now, which [01:15:55] is I think is fantastic because the benefits are there, you know. So, you know, you look at the research [01:16:00] and actually, well, if you’re very good at cleaning your teeth and you’ve got crooked teeth, then it doesn’t matter. You don’t need ortho, [01:16:05] but the research doesn’t necessarily show it. But what we see on a day to day basis where patients [01:16:10] value their teeth more, they, um, they clean their teeth better after they’ve had their treatment. Um, [01:16:15] there’s a great study actually, that was done. Um, Prof. Tim Newton in in [01:16:20] Kings was very much involved in kind of the psychology. He does a lot of psychological stuff. [01:16:25] And I think it was a study where they looked at they photoshopped eight year old teeth, and they got [01:16:30] the teacher to judge how clever they are on just the photo of their teeth. And if you [01:16:35] had a big overjet, the teacher thought you weren’t clever and you weren’t going to succeed in life. So if you’re being judged at [01:16:40] that age.

Payman Langroudi: Class three purely a bit. Class three gets. Yeah, a lot of class.

Zaid Esmail: Yeah. Big, [01:16:45] big, big buck teeth. Overjet. Yeah. Class. You got that kind of look to it. Yeah, [01:16:50] it just sort of. It’s amazing how you just miss someone completely on on their [01:16:55] teeth at the age of eight.

Payman Langroudi: You know what pisses you off about ortho? Like [01:17:00] about the current state of of of the market, the dentistry itself?

Zaid Esmail: I think, um, [01:17:05] what annoys me, I think, when some orthodontists [01:17:10] who are high up on their perch and think what [01:17:15] I do is amazing and you know, what they do and, and all these things that they do. [01:17:20] And, and I think when you go to the what annoys me, you go to these conferences and you, [01:17:25] these people are showing these things that they’re doing with Tad’s and [01:17:30] Marpi, which is, which is Tad’s assisted expansion and all this stuff and all these Tad’s [01:17:35] everywhere. And you’re like, well, I could do that by just taking out an upper left five. So you think, okay, is [01:17:40] it worth going through all that? Um, and I work in Tunbridge Wells. You know, if I went to those Tunbridge [01:17:45] Wells mums and said, I’m going to put these screws in here and do all that, they’re not going to want that for their little, their little kid. [01:17:50] So it’s not real world orthodontics. And what annoys me. And actually the lecture I just got back from, [01:17:55] from from Rio, very prominent orthodontist, did some fantastic stuff years [01:18:00] ago, and now he’s come back and showing all the complications that occurred. Um, and [01:18:05] you just think, well, why were you not doing that before? Like, you could show the complications. [01:18:10]

Zaid Esmail: You showed those ten cases that work really well. You don’t show the. Now when he’s a big name, he can then come out [01:18:15] and go. Actually, these are the complications. And some of the stuff they did where they did, um, [01:18:20] they did two tabs in the palate in an adult and try and split the, the maxilla to try and get surgical expansion [01:18:25] without surgery. He then showed cases where you’ve had complete asymmetric [01:18:30] expansions, where they’ve got the jaw on one side, maxilla has expanded on one side and not on the other, and then [01:18:35] massively asymmetric. He had one CSF brain leak, CSF coming out of their nose because [01:18:40] where it split at the cranial base. And I’m thinking, but you’ve gone [01:18:45] and lectured all about all over the world about doing all these tasks and doing all these things [01:18:50] and, And then you should. And that’s. That annoys me. [01:18:55] You know, I want to go to these lectures and I want to say, yes, the five cases that you’ve done well, but I want to see ten cases [01:19:00] that went badly and how you manage those cases.

Payman Langroudi: The thing is, when you first start doing it, you’ve. [01:19:05]

Zaid Esmail: Got to show.

Payman Langroudi: You haven’t got the failures. Yeah. You know, that’s the thing.

Zaid Esmail: But then should you be doing it, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:19:10] then we’ll never.

Zaid Esmail: Progress.

Payman Langroudi: It. We’ll never progress.

Zaid Esmail: Yeah. No. True. Um, and that’s why I’m always a bit [01:19:15] sceptical about it and, you know, a little bit averse when it comes down to that. And I think [01:19:20] actually, if it was, if it was me, do I, do I want that and actually rather refer it for someone else to do that and then [01:19:25] so, but then there’s the risk of being called a dinosaur because you don’t do any of that stuff. Um, so but [01:19:30] I’m quite happy to keep my, um, like I said, I see I see my patients as [01:19:35] keep it real.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Basically.

Zaid Esmail: Without sounding cliche. Uh, [01:19:40] yeah. So I mean, at the end of the day, there are enough patients out there just to be doing [01:19:45] good bog standard orthodontics. You don’t need to be doing all the other stuff and try and avoid [01:19:50] having surgery, and it’ll all just go back to, well, I’ll just end up having surgery instead. And that’s, you know, the patients will want it and [01:19:55] that’s absolutely fine.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t you think, though, like that it was a banker who discovered the aligning [01:20:00] Invisalign.

Zaid Esmail: Yeah. Mit to MIT grads, wasn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: I think [01:20:05] he wasn’t a dentist.

Zaid Esmail: No, no, it wasn’t a dentist. Um, and I think the story goes that he [01:20:10] retainers hadn’t worn for a while, and he tried to shove his retainers back in and realised they can move the teeth [01:20:15] back. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like a massive breakthrough. Yeah, a massive breakthrough. A [01:20:20] huge, massive breakthrough that you could sit there and say, well, you know, braces are working fine. Why do we need [01:20:25] these?

Zaid Esmail: But I think what it is, is the adults braces work really fine. But the big stigma, [01:20:30] if you are well off in your 40s or what’s stopping you getting your teeth straightened, it’s [01:20:35] it’s wearing a metal brace or wearing a brace. And that’s why back in the.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I was part of [01:20:40] that porcelain veneer revolution.

Zaid Esmail: The option, wasn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: The two choices.

Zaid Esmail: Yeah, exactly. [01:20:45] Invisalign has done great for that aspect. Um, and I think that’s what it needed. You know, there’s an element [01:20:50] of lingual, but, you know, that’s a whole whole story.

Payman Langroudi: Have you ever done that?

Zaid Esmail: I’ve done a few lingual cases. Um, I, [01:20:55] I try and put patients off now, so they’ve got to twist my hand to be able to do it. I charge almost twice as much as [01:21:00] normal because it is twice as hard. Yeah. Um, it’s it’s it [01:21:05] has its places. Um, but I tell patients you’re going to hate me for a week. It’s going to be horrible. [01:21:10] It’s twice the price. Uncomfortable, uncomfortable. It just sits on the tongue and, uh. And it decays. I’ve [01:21:15] done have worked well, and it’s not. And actually, I feel I’ve got 100% record and I’ll just retire at that. So unless there’s a [01:21:20] but now any of the complicated cases where you can’t do the patient wants Invisalign [01:21:25] or something that’s discreet, those kind of patients probably don’t want to do with lingual either. So [01:21:30] I’d rather do with aligners and just consent. Actually, we can do the rest with hybrid mechanics, with fixed or power [01:21:35] arms, or extra things we can do to kind of get around it. So I do extraction cases with aligners, knowing which [01:21:40] extraction cases work. Um, and it can sound like a worst case. It’s a few months to fix at the end, instead of the whole 18 months [01:21:45] worth of fix. And a single arch might be instead of whole dual arch. So I think there are ways around it. [01:21:50] And ultimately, you know, it’s this is the plan that I’m comfortable doing and happy [01:21:55] to do. And if you want to go out with me, then great.

Zaid Esmail: And if I’m sure you want to find someone who’s going to do tihs and do all sorts and promise [01:22:00] you the earth, then you’re more than welcome to go, um, to go to them. So I [01:22:05] just try and keep it very realistic. I don’t try and overdo things. I think when you get pushed into maybe trying to do [01:22:10] something that’s non extraction, and then the recession starts happening and you go, well at that point then well you [01:22:15] know, what do you do. That aspect of it. Um I don’t like the extraction. [01:22:20] The big non extraction extraction is probably about 25, 30% um [01:22:25] which I think is probably about average. And I don’t agree with everyone does extractions I don’t agree with everyone does everything [01:22:30] non extraction I think it’s and I don’t agree with everything. There are some we’re talking about earlier that there are some that dentists [01:22:35] orthodontists only do aligners and you know and only do metal fixed braces. I think it’s it’s [01:22:40] nice to have a variety that you just treat what is best for the patient and just go through those options with [01:22:45] the patient. I feel like I’m very good at explaining to a layperson how [01:22:50] teeth move and what what works, and that’s that consultation process. For me, it’s not a consultation, [01:22:55] it’s a chat of what I can do and improve and make sure we’re on the same page of what we’re trying to achieve [01:23:00] and to see whether I can help them or not, because I want every patient to [01:23:05] be happy at the end of it, because that’s where I get most of my and referrals from is, is [01:23:10] that result.

Zaid Esmail: But it takes time to get there. Saying earlier about the private practice, it will take time to build [01:23:15] up because you’re not going to see results at 18 months down the line. So you’re going to have 18 months, two years of starting [01:23:20] cases before you get in that word of mouth referral. Yes, eventually it will it will come to fruition. But it’s, [01:23:25] uh, it’s just doing a good job and just being nice to people and [01:23:30] nice to people hanging out with other nice people. And I just think it’s just the easiest way to, to, to grow a business. [01:23:35] Um, and the money will come. You don’t need to chase it. You just do [01:23:40] a good job. We treat everyone as if they’re your siblings or daughter or whatever. And um, [01:23:45] and yeah, it will come. And the success comes from that. And I think [01:23:50] that’s, that’s how that’s how I live my life. That’s how I want to do. I have to have a good night’s sleep. I’m [01:23:55] my part of the reason why I’m always doing something because my brain goes into overdrive, like so. [01:24:00] I’m always thinking about that patient or thinking about that. So if I’m in a position where I don’t have to worry about those patients, I [01:24:05] can sleep easier at night.

Payman Langroudi: Final question fantasy dinner party. [01:24:10]

Zaid Esmail: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests, dead or alive.

Zaid Esmail: Um, right. So [01:24:15] probably Edward Angle, who’s kind of the godfather of orthodontic. So the fact he kind of started it all [01:24:20] up back in the late 1800s, I think it’s amazing that someone can create a whole field [01:24:25] which doesn’t really exist.

Payman Langroudi: It’s still weird when you think about it. It’s still weird that it’s possible to move teeth. Absolutely. [01:24:30] The amount, the distances that you can move, you know, sometimes you see those time lapse things. Yeah. Jesus [01:24:35] Christ, man who came up with that? And it was him. Yeah.

Zaid Esmail: Um, and you know, back then, I [01:24:40] think it took a day to fit a brace. It was all gold and different bends and all sorts. And you know, it was [01:24:45] a half a day to adjust the brace. So to kind of. And, but also then take that idea that you’re going [01:24:50] to put all this on a patient and then start having the belief that you’re going to be able to move those teeth, I think is [01:24:55] amazing. Uh, another one, um, I probably [01:25:00] said before, but Steve Jobs, I was quite a very Big Apple fanboy at uni. I was probably one of the first kind of white [01:25:05] clamshell MacBooks and his presentation style. So I remember the first couple of lectures [01:25:10] I did, um, at dental school, I won the presentation prize for our elective, but I tried to do [01:25:15] it as a Steve Jobs presentation. You know, that black and blue gradient background with white writing? [01:25:20] Um, I really kind of, you know, and the way he was just [01:25:25] it’s just you sometimes go to these lectures and it’s just words, words, words. And you just think, oh, what are you doing? And it’s [01:25:30] it’s that really kind of learned how he presents things and how he makes you think of, [01:25:35] you know, like it’s the why not the how isn’t it? It’s sort of, why do [01:25:40] we do these things? And so, um, yeah, I had one of the first, you know, I think I had the second [01:25:45] generation iPhone back, back when the first kind of came out. Now I’ve moved away from it, and partly because it’s not him anymore, but, [01:25:50] um, it’s him, I think, uh, I think absolute on a on a pedestal. Um, and [01:25:55] then I was jumping around between sort of, uh, Robin Williams. I [01:26:00] just grew up watching his movies, um, or Tiger Woods. Um, and my wife is [01:26:05] like, you can’t say Tiger Woods because he, uh, um, because he cheated on his wife. So you’ve got to say, Robin.

Payman Langroudi: Robin [01:26:10] Williams is a much bigger character, much, much more important person than Tiger.

Zaid Esmail: Kind of grew up watching [01:26:15] his movies in the 90s. And, um, yeah, it was getting actually just those [01:26:20] movies watching, as I remember as a kid with my family, you know, first moving to the country, you know, Mrs. [01:26:25] Doubtfire was was the first one that I remember and just kind of grew up on and just, yeah, an [01:26:30] absolute legend, absolute hero.

Payman Langroudi: But also the way he went and all that. It’s [01:26:35] interesting to talk about.

Zaid Esmail: Yeah. And it’s sad that you think he was depressed. You know someone and [01:26:40] you hear stories. What? He. One of the actors was in hospital, I think, just recently. And then he turns up as a nurse [01:26:45] and pretends to give him a I can’t remember the actor was, it was, but he came in and, you know, just made him [01:26:50] just got diagnosed with cancer. And Robin comes in, dresses up as a nurse, pretends he’s going to give him a an [01:26:55] anal anal exam or a sponge bath or what it was. But yeah, so it was kind of stuff like that, I think. What and [01:27:00] sad that he was, he had because we never saw that side of it. Um, but it’s quite common amongst [01:27:05] comedians apparently.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Zaid Esmail: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How would you like to be remembered?

Zaid Esmail: I [01:27:10] think just as a, a good clinician, I think I’ve always wanted to do the best in what [01:27:15] I’ve done. I’ve always wanted to, um, do the best work of my patients. I always wanted to, [01:27:20] even the academy. I want to make it. As you know, it’s not about the money. It’s [01:27:25] about providing service to and getting to know people and helping [01:27:30] people. I think. I think it’s all about helping people. I think, you know, we help patients with their [01:27:35] with their teeth, Help dentists do ortho. Help orthodontists bring [01:27:40] a posterior upper canine down. You know, for me, I just think, um, and I think that gives you more joy than than [01:27:45] anything else. Well, for me in particular, um, and, uh, but that’s pretty selfish, because when I [01:27:50] feel like when I help people, it makes me happier. So, um, that’s how I kind of get my dopamine [01:27:55] hit. So. Yeah, I think just a good clinician, good husband, good dad. [01:28:00] Um, uh, good golfer. You know, just [01:28:05] being good at what I do.

Payman Langroudi: Would you want your kids to become dentists? Orthodontists? Like, is [01:28:10] it something that you’d encourage?

Zaid Esmail: I don’t know, um, I think [01:28:15] orthodontists, yes. I think it’s really hard to know what dentistry [01:28:20] is going to be like in, you know, ten, 15, 20 years time.

Payman Langroudi: It’s hard to know what anything [01:28:25] is going to be like.

Zaid Esmail: I know.

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Zaid Esmail: And I, my wife and all my family, I [01:28:30] come from a family of doctors and none of them want their kids to be doctors. I think that’s a shame what their [01:28:35] life in the NHS is like.

Payman Langroudi: Definitely not in the UK.

Zaid Esmail: No, no.

Payman Langroudi: My brother’s a doctor. It’s [01:28:40] just not in the UK. The other places where you might say you’re right, go ahead and become a doctor. [01:28:45]

Zaid Esmail: Yeah, yeah. So I probably wouldn’t push them.

Payman Langroudi: But then.

Zaid Esmail: I [01:28:50] wouldn’t push them I think. Yeah. I think it’s just so difficult. I think coming out now and [01:28:55] trying to be, you know, I think I feel like now.

Payman Langroudi: Everything’s difficult though. Everything worthwhile is [01:29:00] difficult.

Zaid Esmail: Yeah. But I think it’s because there’s no structure. You come out and you’re just all [01:29:05] these social media dentists showing all these stuff and you’re thinking, well, if you’re not good at social media, what? [01:29:10] How, you know, how can you put yourself out there? I think I think the problem with dentistry as well, I think it’s gone, are the [01:29:15] days of a bog standard general family NHS dentist. I think now you have to [01:29:20] find a niche, whether you’re a businessman or a practice owner, whether you specialise in orthodontics, whether you do [01:29:25] cosmetic stuff, whether you do implants, I think, um, or in a super associate where you do a bit of everything. I [01:29:30] think gone are the days of just a bog standard family NHS dentist, I dentists. I think that’s, uh, [01:29:35] that’s probably wouldn’t actively discourage it. Um, but I wouldn’t encourage it. I think [01:29:40] you’ve got to do what you love. And I was.

Payman Langroudi: They didn’t know what they love.

Zaid Esmail: No, I know it’s difficult.

Payman Langroudi: You said. [01:29:45] You said your kids 13.

Zaid Esmail: 13 is my son. Yeah. Um, daughter’s nine.

Payman Langroudi: So. Yeah. [01:29:50] So you might be. They might do. Yeah. My son one day turned up and said I want to do aerospace engineering. [01:29:55] Brilliant. I said, oh great. You know, and he’s going to do that. He’s actually doing that. [01:30:00]

Zaid Esmail: But mostly yeah, I think we’re really lucky though in this country because like when I was growing up, my parents were like medicine [01:30:05] and dentistry. I think in this country where you are, if whatever you do, because I play golf in quite [01:30:10] an exclusive club in Surrey and you see those other people there, there’s only 2 or 3 dentists, there’s no doctors, but [01:30:15] they’ve done they’ve crafted a field in something that they love doing. And I think whatever you love [01:30:20] doing, you will make a success of it no matter what.

Payman Langroudi: But they don’t know what they love. [01:30:25]

Zaid Esmail: It’s easy saying that, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Um, it’s, you know, that club of yours that’s a selected [01:30:30] group of winners. Yeah, yeah. It’s like it’s [01:30:35] not real.

Zaid Esmail: But I mean, yeah, I think they’ve got to find [01:30:40] their own, their own thing. And I was just lucky that I was kind of pushed into it. But actually I’ve worked [01:30:45] I really, really enjoy it. Um, my son’s quite similar to me, so I [01:30:50] see a lot of myself in him.

Payman Langroudi: So what what do you wish you were more like? [01:30:55]

Zaid Esmail: Um, I sometimes [01:31:00] I’m not very good at. Okay. [01:31:05] So the classic example is I feel like I’m a very good clinician, and [01:31:10] I feel like I’m doing a good job at the academy. I feel like I’ve done well with the Eruptor. I’m not very good at being one of those social [01:31:15] media people that has 100,000 followers and say, look what I do. I’m I’m [01:31:20] not very good at that. I’m not very good at putting myself out there. I’d [01:31:25] quite like to be like that. Um, and but. [01:31:30] Yeah. So maybe maybe that. But then it’s just not me. It’s not. You know, I’d [01:31:35] rather someone comes up to me and go, wow, I really like it. As opposed to me shouting out and [01:31:40] telling people about it. Um, so I think. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do [01:31:45] you wish you were a bit more sales? Yeah.

Zaid Esmail: Because I actually I actually really [01:31:50] enjoy the sales of dentistry. So we’re a consultation with a patient. I really enjoy and it’s not about [01:31:55] being salesy, it’s just about believing in the product that you’re doing, which is orthodontics and and [01:32:00] just being honest with them. And and I get that buzz when a patient goes ahead from a consultation. [01:32:05] And it’s not about the money. It’s it’s actually now about the trust that they’re trusting [01:32:10] me with their teeth or with their kids teeth. And it’s that that I [01:32:15] still get the buzz from.

Payman Langroudi: Um, you know, you know, the difference between sales [01:32:20] and branding.

Zaid Esmail: No, I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: So one’s [01:32:25] kind of a push. One’s a pull kind of thing. Insomuch as this. [01:32:30] You’re not, you’re not, you’re not getting someone coming up to you saying, [01:32:35] buy these Nike trainers. Yeah. You know, it’s not it’s not a salesman or here they are on discount [01:32:40] or you’re going to them because you know what the apple or whatever it is, [01:32:45] the sort of two sides of the same coin but but very different. I’ve, I’ve found [01:32:50] over the years I my, my sort of appetite for sales [01:32:55] has gone down. Um, there was a time where I used to like it, you know, like, [01:33:00] you know, striking the deal. Yeah. Just be into that. Yeah, but my appetite for branding [01:33:05] has gone up. Yeah, a bit. You know what we stand for? You know, these sort of effects. Yeah, yeah. [01:33:10] Um, but I’d say you’re quite good at it, dude. You know, I think you’re scripting [01:33:15] yourself a little bit, you know, like, you don’t want to be good at it.

Zaid Esmail: What [01:33:20] do you mean?

Payman Langroudi: You’re not bad at putting yourself out and [01:33:25] saying saying it how it is because you’re kind of honest, you know, and honesty goes a long way. And it’s [01:33:30] like sales is a dirty word in a way, but it’s actually the best salesman end up being your [01:33:35] friends. And yeah, you know, like the guy who was sitting here when you walked in. Yeah, he’s been selling to me [01:33:40] for 20 years. Yeah. We ended up having a conversation for like [01:33:45] 45 minutes of our conversation was about nothing to do with what he was going to sell. And then [01:33:50] he said, well, let me tell you what I’m interested in. You know, I like seeing him. He’s a good friend. [01:33:55] Yeah. So it doesn’t have to be a dirty thing.

Zaid Esmail: It’s funny because I don’t see that as sales, even [01:34:00] though.

Payman Langroudi: Sales. He was here to sell. Yeah, absolutely.

Zaid Esmail: But I think because sales has got that.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:34:05] just good.

Zaid Esmail: Sales. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a difference between good sales and bad sales. Yeah.

Zaid Esmail: Which I suppose is probably the bit that what you’re saying [01:34:10] about the branding and the pulling and sort of.

Payman Langroudi: You know, like I mean author doesn’t, but you know, like [01:34:15] some people have cosmetic, uh, filler and stuff and [01:34:20] you can tell and then some people have it and you can’t tell. Yeah, yeah. Now you could [01:34:25] say, oh, I hate, I hate those big lips. Yeah, because I can see that. But the [01:34:30] fact is, you can’t tell when it’s done. Well. Yeah, yeah yeah.

Zaid Esmail: Yeah. True.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:34:35] it’s a bit like that. Yeah, a bit like that. Yeah. It’s been a massive pleasure, man. Thanks a lot for coming.

Zaid Esmail: In, for having [01:34:40] me. Really enjoyed.

Payman Langroudi: It.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [01:34:45] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:34:50] Your hosts, Payman Langroudi [01:34:55] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got [01:35:00] this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay [01:35:05] for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because [01:35:10] I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [01:35:15] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out [01:35:20] of it too. Thank you so so so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast has been brought to you by Mini Smile Makeover. Mini Smile Makeover is a two day anterior [00:00:05] composite course led by the extraordinary talented doctor Dipesh Palmer. Two [00:00:10] days of full on, hands on composite training, purely focussed on [00:00:15] anterior work composite veneers, polishing, finishing, shade matching. You also [00:00:20] get a free enlightened kit. Plus we have a great time and a party in the middle. Find out the dates. [00:00:25] Mini smile makeover.com. Now let’s get back to the podcast.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. [00:00:35] The podcast where you get to go one on one with [00:00:40] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:50] gives me great pleasure to welcome Chiara Bourgault onto the podcast. [00:00:55] Chiara has had an excellent international kind of training and [00:01:00] finally end up in London, which is nice. Um, yeah. I grew up in Spain. [00:01:05] Uh, one of your parents is French. One’s Italian. Exactly. And then, uh, a bit of [00:01:10] time in Brazil and then a bit of time in Milan, and then [00:01:15] the. What’s the name of the course you did in New York?

Chiara Burgio: Uh, NYU, um, [00:01:20] advanced aesthetic program. Now, now they just changed the name because Doctor [00:01:25] APA um, it was now it’s named after him because he basically. [00:01:30]

Payman Langroudi: A bit like before it was Rosenthal. Exactly.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah, exactly. So now he’s also [00:01:35] a little bit involved in the program as well. So. Okay, nice.

Payman Langroudi: So did [00:01:40] that of course. And then straight away came back. Came to London.

Chiara Burgio: Exactly. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Why London?

Chiara Burgio: Well, [00:01:45] actually, now, uh, it’s been a while that all my siblings live, live in London. [00:01:50] And I guess after having international experience, [00:01:55] and especially when I was in New York two years, I realised I missed, um, [00:02:00] being close to my family. So yeah, that was basically the.

Payman Langroudi: Your parents [00:02:05] still in Madrid?

Chiara Burgio: My parents? Yeah. Lived between Madrid and Milan because my dad is still working in [00:02:10] Italy and they go back and forth. Um, because we grew up in Madrid. So, yeah, [00:02:15] that’s our home. So, yeah, whenever.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got brothers and sisters here now.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. [00:02:20] One brother and two sisters.

Payman Langroudi: I think dentists as.

Chiara Burgio: Well. No, no one in my family.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Chiara Burgio: No. [00:02:25] No. And I’m the first one. No one is in dentistry or medicine at all.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:02:30] your kid number?

Chiara Burgio: What for?

Payman Langroudi: Your last.

Chiara Burgio: One.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I can see it. I can.

Chiara Burgio: See.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:02:35] can see cheekiness in you. You know, there’s a kid. Number four is most likely to be a billionaire.

Chiara Burgio: Really? [00:02:40] Yeah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Because kid number one becomes, like, whatever. Clever. And everyone tells him [00:02:45] he’s clever. And then number two becomes sporty, number three becomes funny, and number four just there isn’t anything [00:02:50] left. So ends up becoming really, like, inventive. Yeah. Does [00:02:55] that resonate.

Chiara Burgio: Maybe, I don’t know. I guess I just want it to be different [00:03:00] in a way. Um, I, I was actually gonna follow [00:03:05] the same path as my siblings and study just business and economics, and I just [00:03:10] changed my mind last minute. Oh, really? And. Yeah. And then I decided to go for dentistry, and [00:03:15] I wasn’t sure.

Payman Langroudi: Wasn’t dentistry.

Chiara Burgio: I knew I knew some dentists, so I [00:03:20] did kind of a few days training before, before I started [00:03:25] dentistry, I went to my, to my old dentist and I just.

Payman Langroudi: Stood.

Chiara Burgio: Around some [00:03:30] time. Yeah. Spend some time there.

Payman Langroudi: But I always think, like, look, my daughter right now is considering what A-levels to do, [00:03:35] and we’re kind of trying to push her into becoming a dentist. Yeah. And then we said, oh, let’s send her to something I actually thought [00:03:40] about. Corey is the right person to send her to.

Chiara Burgio: Are you sure?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I haven’t told Corey [00:03:45] this. Yeah, right. Um, but but but I thought, [00:03:50] you know, like, what’s she gonna do? She’s going to go there. She’s going to stand in the room, not not see anything. Yeah. So [00:03:55] you kind of that experience of standing in the room make you want to be a dentist or what? [00:04:00]

Chiara Burgio: No. So I guess my first instinct was, okay, [00:04:05] I’ll follow what my siblings did. But then after thinking a bit more about it, I wasn’t [00:04:10] really convinced, and I started exploring more options. And then kind of medicine [00:04:15] came up. And then I did this four days at my dentist. But then that. That’s [00:04:20] not the whole story. This is actually I, I, I think I’ve told very few people this story, but [00:04:25] yeah. So the last year of school, I, I was applying to all these unis and I [00:04:30] wasn’t sure. And actually, uh, the daughter of a friend of my mom, [00:04:35] she started speaking about this guy in Paris that, um, basically [00:04:40] specialised in psychoanalysis and would basically you would [00:04:45] have a session with him and he would tell you what you’re good at. How is your personality? Um, which job [00:04:50] basically would fit well for you? Yeah. Um, and I went there, [00:04:55] actually, I went to Paris because I at that time, I still had some family there. Um, [00:05:00] and I went to meet this guy, and it was crazy. I mean, [00:05:05] he he really he really nailed down my personality with just looking [00:05:10] at my face, my hands, my handwriting. So the handwriting was a big [00:05:15] part of his analysis. And I remember he would just. There was just a light, and [00:05:20] he would look at my face for five, ten minutes just looking at it in my hands. And. [00:05:25] Yeah, and he basically told me what I would be good at. And I hadn’t told him anything [00:05:30] about dentistry or anything.

Payman Langroudi: So it was like an element of voodoo.

Chiara Burgio: A little bit. Yeah, it was a bit [00:05:35] weird for sure.

Chiara Burgio: Um, but yeah, he just described me and told me, [00:05:40] okay, you you have very good hand skills. Um, and.

Payman Langroudi: It’s that thing, [00:05:45] right? They make you handwrite. The handwriting is ridiculous.

Chiara Burgio: Pages and pages.

Payman Langroudi: Had a big argument [00:05:50] with the teacher. Once my kids go to French school as well, right? And I said, the kid’s never [00:05:55] going to use a pen. So why are you giving him so many?

Chiara Burgio: I mean, now for sure.

Payman Langroudi: But. Okay. And [00:06:00] then you went with that.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. And then he basically told me which professions would be good for me. [00:06:05] And the first choice he gave me was neurosurgeon. Um, and I was like, okay. [00:06:10] Um, and then he gave me a few more options. Everything related in medicine. [00:06:15] He didn’t say dentistry, though. So at the end of the session, I told him, look, I applied to economics. [00:06:20] I applied to dental school. I’m not sure what I want to do. And he just looked at me and he was like, no, [00:06:25] do dentistry. It’s going to be you’re going to be very, very happy. And I don’t [00:06:30] know, I’m not saying it’s the reason I, I chose dentistry, but I think I needed kind of that push, [00:06:35] uh, from someone. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So normally I’d then go step by step. [00:06:40] What did you do next? But I’m quite interested in this idea of, you know, when you [00:06:45] finish dental school and you see your first patient. Yeah. Sometimes I don’t [00:06:50] know about you. I got this feeling of God was. Is that was that all it was for to be in this room with this [00:06:55] nurse and this patient? Now you’ve done that and you’ve done all this extra [00:07:00] training now, and you’re 28 and you’d imagine, like the world’s at [00:07:05] your fingertips right now, but have you got that feeling ever of like, you know, because because [00:07:10] when you do something like density, it’s almost like you take a deep breath, go underwater, [00:07:15] you study for five years, then you’ve gone straight into further studies. You know, a [00:07:20] large part of your life has been dedicated to this profession. Yeah. Now you’re at the [00:07:25] end of the beginning. Do you have anything like that, a feeling like that, that you. Maybe [00:07:30] I should have been an architect.

Chiara Burgio: Sometimes, for sure. Um, I don’t think [00:07:35] it happened right after dental school because I worked for a few years. Um, but I guess [00:07:40] it was maybe after I got some more postgraduate training. And I guess the feeling I had [00:07:45] was the less you know, the less you’re stressed, right? And then the more you learn, [00:07:50] the more you realise how little you know. Yeah, true. And then that’s when you actually [00:07:55] realise, oh, shit. Like, I actually need to learn a lot more and a lot more. [00:08:00] And it’s kind of, you feel like a never ending thing that you have to keep studying. And [00:08:05] I guess for a lot of professions, you study, you do, you do university and then you’re done. You [00:08:10] know, you, you just do your job and you learn how to do the job, but there’s not so much extra [00:08:15] studying. And yeah, my family and my boyfriend, they’re always telling me like, wow, yeah, you [00:08:20] always go to courses. You’re always doing things like, why? Why do you need to do that? You’ve [00:08:25] studied already for so long, but you have to keep going.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about when [00:08:30] you went to Brazil. Yeah. And the exchange program from your [00:08:35] Madrid University.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. So it was a tough time for me before [00:08:40] going to Brazil because my dad had been sick. Um, and [00:08:45] I was in a in a relation. I just broke up with my boyfriend at the time. Uh, [00:08:50] and I, I think I really needed to get away from everything. [00:08:55] And Brazil was a great experience because first of all, dentistry in Brazil, [00:09:00] I think is one of the best in the world. And I just went there in this, [00:09:05] you know, almost random city, uh, which was Natale. I [00:09:10] mean, it is a very big city, but whenever you speak to someone, you’re like, okay, I went to Natal. [00:09:15] They’re like, where is that? Brazil is so big. Yeah. Um, and it was it was [00:09:20] really a life changing experience. I would say, um, I was also in an environment [00:09:25] which wasn’t that safe, obviously, because Brazil is not the safest place [00:09:30] in the world. So I had to learn, you know, how to be careful. And. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Was [00:09:35] it the first time you were away from home?

Chiara Burgio: Um, yeah. For that long? Yes. And that far [00:09:40] for sure.

Payman Langroudi: And so the type of thing they were teaching there was that specific [00:09:45] to that area? I mean, like, what are your reflections on the differences between Spanish [00:09:50] dentistry, Brazilian dentistry, Italian UK, what kind of [00:09:55] things have you learned?

Chiara Burgio: I think I’ve learned that every place has its positives [00:10:00] and negatives, but for sure dentistry is very different in every country. You would think, oh, [00:10:05] you know, dentistry is a universal thing. No, not at all. The patients are different the way you have to [00:10:10] handle the patients. It’s the relationship you have with them is different. Um, and Brazil [00:10:15] gave me that thing where, you know, even if you’re young, it doesn’t matter. You can [00:10:20] just push yourself and do things. Whereas in other places like Italy or, you [00:10:25] know, maybe Spain, they’re more like, okay, if if you’re young, you don’t [00:10:30] have a lot of experience, don’t do it in Brazil. They did. They really push you to to do [00:10:35] a lot. And I remember I wasn’t even a dentist. I was placing implants in Brazil. [00:10:40] Yeah. I’ve placed I’ve placed a lot of implants there. Um, and, [00:10:45] you know, I hadn’t even done a root canal. So it was crazy. Yeah, it was crazy, but [00:10:50] it really it really helped me because after that, I lost a lot of the fear. You know, the classic [00:10:55] fear you have in the beginning where you’re really stressed about treating a patient. I really lost [00:11:00] that in Brazil, because.

Payman Langroudi: I bet you pulled a lot of teeth out as well, right?

Chiara Burgio: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which is an important [00:11:05] training. We don’t get very much nowadays. Yeah. So then what about Milan? Why did you move to [00:11:10] Milan?

Chiara Burgio: So I was actually supposed to move to Paris after dental school. Um, [00:11:15] because in Madrid, it’s. The situation in in Spain is quite tricky. There are a lot [00:11:20] of dentists. So it’s not the best environment unless you have your own practice. [00:11:25] So Paris is a really good option. But yeah, last minute I chose to go to Milan because [00:11:30] I, I met some dentists there, um, randomly, and they all told me, no, come, come [00:11:35] to Milan. You know, it will be great. Uh, you will learn a lot. And it’s true. The level in Italy [00:11:40] is, I would say, like in Brazil, it’s very, very high. Even, you know, basic dentists, [00:11:45] they are extremely good. And even interviews for practices there. It was [00:11:50] like, okay, do you use rubber dam? You know if you don’t use rubber dam, you’re not you can’t work here. They [00:11:55] really they really exigent. They really.

Payman Langroudi: Do. You were [00:12:00] like an associate in Milan.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. And I was working in many practices. I was honestly [00:12:05] killing myself. I did, I did, you know, some days I was doing half day in one half day in [00:12:10] the other one on Mondays I was taking the car, driving one hour, going to this other practice [00:12:15] where this, this doctor, she’s one of the best in Italy in restorative dentistry. And [00:12:20] I was just doing hygiene there. But just the opportunity to, you know, to be close to her. And [00:12:25] whenever I had a minute, I was going there looking at her, at her work. So yeah, [00:12:30] I, I, I worked really hard there to learn as much as I could.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me how how [00:12:35] did that even come about? Did you literally offer her that?

Chiara Burgio: No. So [00:12:40] I met her through basically through a friend of a friend. Um, they [00:12:45] met again randomly, and he introduced me to to a lot of dentists [00:12:50] because he was a surgeon there and specialised in third molar extraction. [00:12:55] So he put me in touch with other dentists that, you know, were [00:13:00] more in the restorative area.

Payman Langroudi: And life in Milan, patients in Milan.

Chiara Burgio: Life [00:13:05] in Milan. And it was it was good. Patients were, I would [00:13:10] say were pretty chilled compared to New York and London. Yeah, yeah, yeah they [00:13:15] were.

Payman Langroudi: You have to keep worrying about being sued and all that.

Chiara Burgio: No, not at all. That came when I, [00:13:20] when I went to New York, I learned about, you know, patients who actually it’s a thing when I was [00:13:25] in Spain and Brazil and Italy, no patients are usually really grateful. And they say whatever you [00:13:30] tell them to do here in New York, it’s more like, well, no, I read and my friend [00:13:35] and this and that and no, I don’t trust you 100%. They question you more, I [00:13:40] guess.

Payman Langroudi: So then why didn’t you just stay in Milan? What was the why? Why were you so [00:13:45] itchy to move all the time?

Chiara Burgio: I know everyone tells me that, but.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry. [00:13:50]

Chiara Burgio: Um. And I think some people see that as a negative thing that, you know, you [00:13:55] can’t stay in the same place for too long. Yeah. Yeah. When you look at my CV, you might think that I [00:14:00] have to stay in London for at least five years. Um, I guess I [00:14:05] always want to, um, to learn more. And sometimes I [00:14:10] feel that by living in different places and putting yourself [00:14:15] in that situation outside of your comfort zone, you know, you arrive to a new city, [00:14:20] you don’t know anyone. You have to start over again. And I think I grew [00:14:25] a lot, and it’s part of it made me part of who I am now that I’m not afraid. Like [00:14:30] if I if I were to move again, I’d be very, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:14:35] I guess, I mean professionally. Professionally. You must have thought. I want to learn more. [00:14:40]

Chiara Burgio: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Now, you could have done so many things right. You could have gone and become a specialist in a university [00:14:45] course, you know, program like that. Yeah. You could have done something in Italy. But [00:14:50] you went for the program in New York.

[BOTH]: Well, first of all, I.

Chiara Burgio: Wanted the [00:14:55] US since I was in dental school. I wanted to go and I actually did, um, the dental program [00:15:00] in, in English in Spain. Yeah, they had that option because I knew that I wanted to learn all [00:15:05] the dental terms in English because I wanted to go to the US at some point, and I was always attracted [00:15:10] to having that experience in, in the States, I guess just. Yeah, just for the personal [00:15:15] experience of it as well. Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you wanted to find a program [00:15:20] in America?

Chiara Burgio: I wanted to find a program in America, and I was looking and asking around [00:15:25] and, you know, in the beginning, I thought, okay, I’ll go right after dental school. Then a lot of a lot of people [00:15:30] advise me not to do that. And I’m actually really grateful that they told me not to do that and to work a little bit, Gain [00:15:35] more experience. And then when you do these programs, especially in the States, it’s really [00:15:40] about how much you want to do. You know, uh, how difficult do you want [00:15:45] to do these cases. Do you want to do full mouth? Do you want to do you know, a few veneer cases? It’s really up to [00:15:50] you. So it’s better if you go there and you have more experience because you can then do more difficult. [00:15:55]

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the process. I mean, is it difficult to get in? Is it expensive?

Chiara Burgio: Um, it’s really [00:16:00] expensive. Uh, first of all, what I did was, you know, let’s see if I can even get in. Um, [00:16:05] so I did the whole application process.

Payman Langroudi: Is it hard to get in?

Chiara Burgio: Um, I [00:16:10] don’t I don’t know, I guess if you’re really motivated and you really want to, you know, you demonstrate [00:16:15] that you’re a good candidate. It’s easy in that sense, to get in if you if you really want something. And [00:16:20] I think in the US they’re really understanding of that. If you’re really motivated they see that. Yeah. Um [00:16:25] but yeah of course they look at your grades. You have to go through, you know, a lot of interviews [00:16:30] and you have to write a personal statement, the whole Classic interview process, I guess. Um, [00:16:35] but it’s not only about the cost of the program, it’s about the cost of living in New York, [00:16:40] which is really, really high. Yeah, yeah. Um, so.

Payman Langroudi: So how many people on the program [00:16:45] at the same time, like, in the.

Chiara Burgio: Um, from 9 to 12 people. [00:16:50] Um, I think now they’re they’ve changed the whole program. So now they’re, they’re getting more [00:16:55] students. But when I did it, I think we were nine. So it was amazing. [00:17:00]

Payman Langroudi: And full time. Right.

Chiara Burgio: Full time. Full time. And you, you’re [00:17:05] in the clinic every day. So it’s almost like you’re working. Exactly as if you’re [00:17:10] working. You have a partner. So I remember I had this partner called Miguel and [00:17:15] we were working together in the clinic, and, you know, one was working, the other one was assisting [00:17:20] and vice versa. And we would handle our own schedule. So all our patients, they had our [00:17:25] phone numbers and we were the ones to decide everything, all the appointments and all that. Yeah. [00:17:30]

Payman Langroudi: And then the patients were what they are. They the kind of patients [00:17:35] who want to be treated by APA but can’t afford it. Is it that.

Chiara Burgio: Now for sure? Now? Yes. Because now that [00:17:40] the program has Zappa’s name. Um, yes. And even before I [00:17:45] think that thanks to Rosenthal and and all of that, it was actually really well [00:17:50] known in, in New York that you can get really good aesthetic work in an environment [00:17:55] in a, in a university. So obviously the cost is much less. They still have to pay quite a lot, [00:18:00] but it’s obviously not the same as if it was a private practice. And you have to think that we have [00:18:05] very good lab technicians working with us. Uh, we had, um, two lab technicians [00:18:10] that were amazing. So patients were getting, you [00:18:15] know, amazing treatment.

Payman Langroudi: What did it cover? I mean, okay, you’d imagine a program [00:18:20] with Apo’s name on it would be all veneers, is [00:18:25] it?

Chiara Burgio: No, it wasn’t all veneers. Um, again, it really [00:18:30] depended on how much you wanted to do so. For example, me, I. In the beginning I was [00:18:35] a bit frustrated in the program. I wasn’t seeing that many patients. I wanted to do more and more and more. [00:18:40] So then I started finding my own patients. You know, I was working with [00:18:45] the period department. I started going to the period department and asking the other students, look, do you have a static [00:18:50] case to send them to me? And I did that so much that I ended up doing the veneers of the perio [00:18:55] resident that I was working with. At the end of the second year. She was like, oh, can you [00:19:00] do my veneers? Um, so so yeah, I just I found a way to, [00:19:05] to have a lot of experience. And I wasn’t only doing veneer cases, I was doing full mouth cases as well. [00:19:10]

Payman Langroudi: Were they teaching that? Yes, yes. So what was the teaching element of it? I mean, [00:19:15] how many hours was teaching? How many hours was clinic.

Chiara Burgio: So the program is 12 [00:19:20] months and you start in July. You’re not in the clinic until September. And [00:19:25] the first three months, I would say it’s mainly hands on and theory. [00:19:30] And after that it’s September and in September, then you start in the clinic. Um, [00:19:35] then you still have some lectures during the year, like especially in the morning, some mornings. [00:19:40] But you always have clinic. There’s not a day that you’re like, okay, no, Thursdays [00:19:45] is just theory. No, you have every day it’s clinic. So that’s it’s really hands on. And I don’t [00:19:50] think there are any programs right now that give you that type of exposure to that many, to that [00:19:55] much clinical time. It’s, you know, that’s why I chose also to go there because most [00:20:00] programs anywhere else, it was like, okay, yeah, a lot of theory, a lot of theory, [00:20:05] which yes, it’s important, but you learn by doing in our profession I think [00:20:10] so, yeah. So they did teach a lot of theory of how to, [00:20:15] you know, do full mouth cases as well.

Payman Langroudi: So you came out of it with like what kind [00:20:20] of numbers, how many full mouth cases have you done? How [00:20:25] many cases was this was numerous.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. I mean, veneer cases. Yeah a lot. Full mouth. [00:20:30] Obviously not, because most of full mouths, they might have needed implant work or, [00:20:35] you know, gum grafting or other things. So full mouth, I, I think [00:20:40] I did 3 or 4. Um, um, but I did quite a lot. Yeah [00:20:45] a lot, yeah. And sometimes, you know, some of these full mouths, um, they had been started [00:20:50] by another student, a few of them, most of them I had started the first year, and then I had [00:20:55] the option of staying an extra year as a fellow. So I was basically working for the university [00:21:00] as well. So I was.

Payman Langroudi: Being taught paid at this point.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah, I was getting [00:21:05] paid. Yeah. So yeah, I had to organise the lectures, I had [00:21:10] to organise the hands on, I had to, um, you know, make the orders of all the materials for [00:21:15] the program. Uh, yeah. Speak to all the professors about organising the theory [00:21:20] classes. And I was teaching as well. I did a few and then I started doing my own [00:21:25] lectures as well for the students, so it was really, really cool. The second year was really, really nice, and [00:21:30] then I had the option to keep growing in the clinic and to keep working on my cases, which [00:21:35] was amazing. And at that point I had my, my, the chair by myself so I could, you [00:21:40] know, I didn’t have a partner. So the second year was really good. Also because I was working by myself, [00:21:45] I was, you know, prepping and suctioning at the same time. So it was I [00:21:50] learned a lot because I was doing everything on my own.

Payman Langroudi: And was there implant element to it?

Chiara Burgio: Yes. [00:21:55] Uh, no. So we were not placing implants.

Payman Langroudi: You weren’t.

Chiara Burgio: Placing? No, but we were restoring implants. Yeah. [00:22:00]

Payman Langroudi: So then you could if you wanted to, could you have stayed [00:22:05] and been a dentist in America or would you have to do more exams?

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. So that path, uh, [00:22:10] some of my friends chose that path. And it is possible, especially after you do two [00:22:15] years, you get something called limited license in the US that gives you access to few [00:22:20] states in the United States.

Payman Langroudi: And Without any exams?

Chiara Burgio: No. You have [00:22:25] to still do the national board. The board? The board? Yeah. The board exams, which are [00:22:30] a lot of work. I mean, my friends, they studied for months. Um, but it is doable. [00:22:35] You also have some practical tests, and after you do all that, then you can practice. I [00:22:40] have some friends in Chicago right now, and they’re practising there.

Payman Langroudi: Did you consider it?

Chiara Burgio: No. Never. [00:22:45]

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t want to live in America?

Chiara Burgio: No, again, I wanted I loved that experience [00:22:50] in the US. But I really missed the whole, you know, I felt like I lost a lot by [00:22:55] being there with my family. Most of my siblings, they had kids. And, you know, I was [00:23:00] losing all that. So I wanted to to be closer to my family. Yeah. [00:23:05]

Payman Langroudi: So then when you came to London, how did you manage to get the job at, [00:23:10] um. Cause, yeah.

Chiara Burgio: Coming to London was really [00:23:15] tough, honestly. It was, I think from all the moves that I did, probably the the toughest. [00:23:20]

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Chiara Burgio: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Why?

Chiara Burgio: Because of the visa?

Payman Langroudi: Of course.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. I [00:23:25] mean, I had to get a visa in the US, but it was much easier to get a student visa to get a [00:23:30] skilled worker visa here. It’s extremely difficult, especially if you want to work in private practice. Um, [00:23:35] because you need a practice that’s going to have the sponsorship license that they want to sponsor you. [00:23:40] And it’s a lot of work. And most, you know, when I was coming here, I did I showed my portfolio, [00:23:45] you know, the practice was like, wow. Yes. You know, almost like when can you start? And [00:23:50] then I’d be like, yeah, but you know, I need a visa and then never hear back again.

Chiara Burgio: You [00:23:55] know?

Chiara Burgio: Oh yeah, actually we don’t do that visa thing. It’s not our thing. We don’t want to do it. So it [00:24:00] was really it was at some point I thought, okay, I’m I’m not gonna make it. I’ll just [00:24:05] go back to Italy. You know, I’m not I’m not gonna make it. But yeah, I managed thankfully.

Payman Langroudi: Because if you watch [00:24:10] the news, you might think it’s easy to come to Britain. Yeah. No, but Britain is the hardest country in [00:24:15] the world to come into the hardest.

Chiara Burgio: Honestly?

Payman Langroudi: Yes. Um. Illegally. Yeah. Um, [00:24:20] which is why there’s all this illegal immigration. Because legally, they’ve basically closed everything [00:24:25] down. Um, they always had when Britain was always the hardest country.

Chiara Burgio: They did [00:24:30] say they were going to be more EU friendly, but not really. I can confirm. [00:24:35]

Payman Langroudi: That hasn’t happened.

Chiara Burgio: Hasn’t happened.

Payman Langroudi: So you got it in the end. [00:24:40]

Chiara Burgio: I got it in the end and I I’m, I met.

Payman Langroudi: For the exams.

Chiara Burgio: No [00:24:45] exams. Yeah. No I mean when I was still in New York I did all the GDC things, [00:24:50] which took a year. So second year I was in New York. I was doing all of this.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:24:55] you’d already decided London was your. Yeah.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah, yeah, I hadn’t decided 100%, [00:25:00] but I wanted to have the option. So that’s what I did, the GDC.

Payman Langroudi: And were you thinking Milan or.

Chiara Burgio: Well, [00:25:05] I even thought about Dubai as well. So my, my options were [00:25:10] either London, Dubai or going back to Milan. Um, Dubai in the end. No. [00:25:15] Um, so it was more London and and In Madrid and Milan. Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:25:20] was the reason you rejected Dubai again?

Chiara Burgio: Too far. Too far from the family [00:25:25] and. Yeah. No.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. Not my vibe, I think so. [00:25:30] So. Yeah. So I met through Shameek. Who? I met through [00:25:35] Shameek. I have to say, he was the best person. I mean, he was the nicest person [00:25:40] I met here when I came to London. I reached out through a professor of mine because he did [00:25:45] coins as well. He was kois trained. Yeah. And yeah, when I, when I got to London, I was [00:25:50] like, oh my God, I need to meet Shameek. You know, I didn’t know a lot of dentists in London and that’s [00:25:55] what I wanted to look for. And he introduced me to Corey. And then I went for an interview there, [00:26:00] and we really clicked in a way. We we spoke a lot about, you know, dentistry. [00:26:05] I showed him my portfolio. He we spoke about my cases and, and then he offered me [00:26:10] a job.

Payman Langroudi: So how many days are you there?

Chiara Burgio: One day a week.

Payman Langroudi: Standards are [00:26:15] high there. Right. And he likes things done the way he likes, things done. Have you? Does everyone have [00:26:20] to work in the way he works? Yeah, yeah.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah, for sure. You have to photograph everything you do [00:26:25] step by step. Uh, you know, prep, bond, everything. Uh, [00:26:30] the temp, the occlusion, everything and everything has to be on the rubber dam. [00:26:35] I mean, even even putting, uh, wire retainers, uh, for ortho. You have to put that on [00:26:40] the rubber dam, uh, and photograph it. So it’s a [00:26:45] really high standard, but it didn’t really it didn’t scare me because in Italy they are like [00:26:50] that. And I was working with people that were really, really demanding and and [00:26:55] that’s why I guess you that’s how you get there, right? That’s how that’s [00:27:00] how you can become excellent if you’re surrounded by people that really demand a lot from [00:27:05] you.

Payman Langroudi: So when you’ve been around a lot of these sort of very top [00:27:10] dentists, experts, if you like, in I’m sure [00:27:15] in New York you must have been, you know, all the guys at NYU as well? Yeah. What would [00:27:20] you say is the key to being expert? Because I think people [00:27:25] people kind of make it sound like it’s some sort of mysterious thing. Yeah. Um, but [00:27:30] as far as I can see, it’s like, don’t take shortcuts. [00:27:35] Yeah. Do everything right. Yeah. Do everything right. It seems such [00:27:40] an obvious thing. Such an obvious thing. Yeah. Of not. But but don’t you [00:27:45] think in dentistry, it’s almost like we we we want to. We want to hack some sort of shortcut, [00:27:50] some way of missing a step. And it’s almost like it’s a cool thing. Hey, guess what? [00:27:55] If you do this, you don’t have to do that anymore. You know, like and those. The problem with dentistry is [00:28:00] that the errors compound.

Chiara Burgio: And then it becomes a big thing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like a really small [00:28:05] error at one step will then compound into a much bigger error. Yeah for sure. [00:28:10] So doing things properly. That’s what. That’s my sense of it. What would you say?

Chiara Burgio: I [00:28:15] think yes, you have to always push yourself to do better and always [00:28:20] self. I guess maybe it’s a it’s a bad thing to say that, [00:28:25] but I self-criticize a lot. I’m never happy with what I’m doing. I take photos of everything. [00:28:30] Um, even in the other practice where I work, I photograph everything. And, [00:28:35] you know, I’m always like, ah, I should have done this better. You know, I don’t like that. Um, so I guess [00:28:40] that’s what I saw in other people that they, they became excellent [00:28:45] because they were always.

Payman Langroudi: Critical, super critical of themselves.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. Which is wrong in a way, you [00:28:50] know, because you, you you feel bad by doing that. But at the same time.

Payman Langroudi: One thing [00:28:55] I would say, one thing I would I would warn you as a young dentist, you know.

Chiara Burgio: Before I burn [00:29:00] out.

Payman Langroudi: You know, some some young dentists get this very wrong. Yeah. Insomuch as, [00:29:05] you know, in when you’re talking to a dentist and you say, I’m very critical of myself and I’m [00:29:10] never happy that from dentist to dentist, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. But [00:29:15] some young dentists mistake that. And they they move that into the patient as [00:29:20] well. Yeah. So let’s say you just fitted ten veneers. Yeah. From a dentist’s [00:29:25] perspective I would have liked that line angle to be slightly further in. I would have liked the emergence to be slightly [00:29:30] better here. Maybe this whatever. All of that is beautiful from a dentist’s perspective. [00:29:35] When you say that to a patient. Yeah, a patient doesn’t get from that. What [00:29:40] me and you get from that, a patient gets from that. Something went wrong. Yeah. Yeah. [00:29:45] She’s not happy with it. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s weird because as a as a dentist, it sounds like it’s [00:29:50] the right thing to be saying that I’m not 100% happy, even though I’m 97% happy. You know, [00:29:55] that’s a perfectionist as far as we’re concerned. From a patient’s perspective, it’s totally different. And [00:30:00] I guess in America, you must have been exposed to that. You know, like, yeah, I remember when Larry used to fit [00:30:05] and he was like, well, you look $1 million here. Did [00:30:10] you can you can you understand what I’m saying?

Chiara Burgio: Yes. So in [00:30:15] New York, I had very demanding patients, and I wasn’t used [00:30:20] to that because I was coming from Italy and Spain where patients, they were, you know, easygoing, [00:30:25] easygoing. And I remember one of the first veneer [00:30:30] cases that I did in New York. I wasn’t expecting it at all for the patient to be that [00:30:35] demanding. Because she was young. She was, I think, 20, 23, 24. During [00:30:40] the consultation, she seemed very easygoing, you know, and then we prepped, [00:30:45] did the veneers. Um, she had she had like, not [00:30:50] very nice shaped, uh, teeth. And I remember that’s why she wanted to do veneers. [00:30:55] She wanted to have like, a lot, a lot of veneers. And we only did like four veneers, uh, very minimal [00:31:00] prep. And I remember when I fitted the veneers, I was like, wow, [00:31:05] they were feldspathic. They were beautiful. We worked with a lab that was really, really good. And [00:31:10] I was like, wow, you know, they look amazing. And I remember she I gave her the mirror [00:31:15] because obviously it’s always like consent. No, you have to show them before you fit them. Are you happy [00:31:20] with this? Do you want me to submit yes or no? And at that point, she was like, no, I don’t like them [00:31:25] at all. You know, this, this angle and this and that. And I remember I still have the video [00:31:30] of that on my phone of her criticising the veneers and me being like, wow, I’m [00:31:35] such a perfectionist and I always criticise everything. But in this moment I love [00:31:40] your veneers and I don’t see what you’re seeing, you know?

Payman Langroudi: So yeah. So patients are even more critical [00:31:45] than you.

Chiara Burgio: Yes. Which I was really impressed. I mean, then you have [00:31:50] to really understand if it’s, you know, the patient that has some unrealistic expectations or [00:31:55] or not.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So the way your, you know, your Gita. Yes. The way your Gita says [00:32:00] it is, if she can see what the patient can see then fine. [00:32:05] Yeah. But if she can’t see what the patient’s talking.

Chiara Burgio: Well, in that moment, I couldn’t see it. Honestly, [00:32:10] I couldn’t see it.

Payman Langroudi: So what did you do?

Chiara Burgio: I called the lab, and I was like, I need some [00:32:15] help. I don’t know what to do. And I remember he came back. He came as well. [00:32:20] The lab technician came and, uh, discussed with the patient, and he was involved in the treatment, [00:32:25] and I don’t know. Then we figured it out, and then at the end, she was really happy. [00:32:30] But it took, I think, 2 or 3 remakes. Yeah, yeah, 2 [00:32:35] or 3 from the first time that they were already excellent, to be [00:32:40] honest.

Payman Langroudi: But can they not see them in the temporaries how it’s going to look?

Chiara Burgio: Yes, [00:32:45] yes. Which which was the strange thing. Yes. Because she liked her temps. [00:32:50] And again there we photographed everything. So we would send the photo of the temporaries to the lab. [00:32:55] We would take an impression of the temp to the lab. We would send, you know, all that information. So yeah, [00:33:00] it was a strange case.

Payman Langroudi: I guess maybe this is a nice time to talk about mistakes. [00:33:05]

Chiara Burgio: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The darker part of the pod. What [00:33:10] comes to mind when I say clinical errors? Um.

Chiara Burgio: I guess we [00:33:15] all make mistakes all the time. That’s part of the job. Um, especially [00:33:20] when you’ve just graduated dental school, you start making [00:33:25] a lot of mistakes. Unfortunately, not because you know you want to, but. Yeah. Um, [00:33:30] I think it was in Milan. The one of the first mistakes that I made, [00:33:35] um, that I really felt I felt really bad for the patient. It was. [00:33:40] I was working in Italy, in Milan, in this private practice, and I was doing only a few days a [00:33:45] week there because it was quite demanding. The location was was good. So the patients [00:33:50] were quite demanding and I was doing a filling on this young patient. [00:33:55] I think she was 17, 18 and it was a two second molar. 37 [00:34:00] um, I put the rubber dam, you know, did the injection [00:34:05] everything. And I started drilling and the feeling was the cavity was huge. [00:34:10] I mean, it was almost needing root canal and the patient [00:34:15] was in pain. Patient was in pain. So I kept adding and adding more anaesthesia, more anaesthesia. And it wasn’t [00:34:20] working. And I think I was so focussed on the tooth that it didn’t. And honestly, even [00:34:25] to this day, I’m like, I don’t even know how I didn’t think of it, but I never [00:34:30] did the block, I never did the IV block, I just did anaesthesia in the [00:34:35] in the area and I don’t know why.

Chiara Burgio: You know, I guess I was so stressed [00:34:40] of being my first treatments and in my mind it was [00:34:45] no, you know, in the beginning I thought it was a small cavity. Again, diagnosis [00:34:50] is a big part of our of our job in the x ray. It didn’t look that big, [00:34:55] you know, I said, okay, we’ll be okay. Intraligamentary periapical everywhere around [00:35:00] the tooth. But I didn’t do the block And I remember the patient was in pain, in pain, in pain. [00:35:05] So I ended up obviously I stopped, I just put a temporary I remember I put a temporary filling, [00:35:10] I called my boss and I was like, look, I don’t know what to do. I put a lot of anaesthesia, but and I remember [00:35:15] he looked at me and was like, did you do the block? And I was like, oh my God, how did I forget? [00:35:20] How, how did I not even think about it? It was so basic, you know, [00:35:25] um.

Payman Langroudi: What happened? Um, did you tell the patient or. No.

Chiara Burgio: No, [00:35:30] no, we just told the patient, you know, just come back. Maybe today the anaesthesia didn’t really work. [00:35:35] Yeah, whatever. And patient came back, and then I treated her, and I finished. I did the block.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:35:40] interesting. I like it, but I’m not going to accept it because. You know why? Because, um, there isn’t much [00:35:45] we can learn from that one.

Chiara Burgio: I mean, I did learn that if it’s a second molar. [00:35:50]

Payman Langroudi: You’re gonna make that mistake again.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. No, I, I got [00:35:55] I got worried because.

Payman Langroudi: Did you ever, did you ever fit veneers. And the patient came back [00:36:00] a week later and said, I don’t like them.

Chiara Burgio: No.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve had that.

Chiara Burgio: Really. [00:36:05]

Payman Langroudi: I’ve had that family member, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Family family member.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Because [00:36:10] the patients loves them, spent a lot of money, goes some family member who’s.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. And [00:36:15] they’re like, I hate them. The wife is like, I hate them.

Payman Langroudi: No. But also like, sometimes you you love [00:36:20] the weakness in your family. Like, you know, like the gaps between their teeth define [00:36:25] them. And now we’ve gotten rid of all those gaps, and now they’re looking almost as different person. [00:36:30] And they’ve spent a load of money.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So give me a different on another [00:36:35] era, a different era. Call it a management era, call it a treatment planning era. Um, [00:36:40] I like that one. It’s interesting. I’ve never heard that one before, but I do want another one.

Chiara Burgio: Um, [00:36:45] maybe not a clinical error, but more [00:36:50] not diagnosing or understanding [00:36:55] the psychological state of a patient before treating them, which I think is a is [00:37:00] a super important part of our job, especially if we’re doing a lot of big cases. You [00:37:05] want to do a full mouth on someone that you like, not on someone that’s going to be.

Payman Langroudi: Someone who likes.

Chiara Burgio: You, someone [00:37:10] who likes you as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chiara Burgio: So yeah, I guess in New York I had a I [00:37:15] had a patient, um, there that she was. I remember she came for consultation. She was [00:37:20] really upset about some implant work that had been done in the front. [00:37:25] And she they looked really bad and she wasn’t happy at all. And, you know, I, I tried [00:37:30] to explain to her, look, I don’t know how much we can do because obviously the implant were placed in a [00:37:35] very tricky way and it was really difficult to make them look nice, you know, because the whole emergence [00:37:40] of the implant was wrong. And I started to explain that to her, but I think she was so [00:37:45] frustrated that she got really upset with me, really, really upset. And I remember she [00:37:50] came back, uh, like a week later and she started shouting in front of everyone. [00:37:55] I don’t want Doctor Borgia to see me ever again. She was patronising [00:38:00] me. She didn’t understand my concerns and [00:38:05] she was shouting in front of everyone. And it was horrible for me because, oh my God, you know, a [00:38:10] patient is shouting that she doesn’t want to see me ever again. But I guess I, I understood [00:38:15] first of all that whenever a patient is frustrated with another dentists work, [00:38:20] you have to be even more understanding and you have to be even more careful because these patients, they’re already [00:38:25] coming with a lot of frustration. And I guess I didn’t see that. I saw it, but I, I didn’t [00:38:30] handle it properly at all.

Payman Langroudi: So what happened next?

[BOTH]: I never saw [00:38:35] her again. Really? I never saw her again.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the kind of unhappy ending I’m after.

[BOTH]: Yeah. [00:38:40] Yeah.

Chiara Burgio: I never saw her again. Which, you know, it was fine. She saw another.

Payman Langroudi: You know what I reckon? I [00:38:45] reckon if the exact same thing happened in a few years time, you [00:38:50] might have picked up on that, you know. Yeah. That there’s almost like a sixth sense that happens [00:38:55] when something like that is going down that it takes a few years of experience. You just can’t [00:39:00] buy experience. That’s the problem. Yes. And what is experience? At the end of the day, it’s things going wrong. [00:39:05] Yes. Yeah.

[BOTH]: And learning from your mistakes.

Payman Langroudi: Learning from your mistakes. But you need to have been around long enough for things [00:39:10] to go wrong enough. And especially in that area that you’re just discussing there. Yeah. [00:39:15] It’s like a picking up on something that I think all the dentists [00:39:20] have that I mean, I wasn’t a dentist ever long enough to get it myself. What [00:39:25] do you teach on right now?

Chiara Burgio: So I teach on Rubber Dam how [00:39:30] to isolate rubber dam. I do that in New York. Uh, once a year. I was doing that when [00:39:35] I was studying, and, uh, the second year as well. And now I kept doing that, and [00:39:40] I’ve just started teaching on injection moulding technique. Oh, yeah. Yeah, in Milan [00:39:45] and Paris. So, yeah, that’s basically what I’m doing right now.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:39:50] in do you mean for where cases or do you mean just cosmetic like composite veneers.

Chiara Burgio: Well, [00:39:55] it’s a very short course. It’s a one day course. So going into the hall where [00:40:00] a subject is too big.

[BOTH]: For one day.

Chiara Burgio: For one day it’s impossible. So [00:40:05] it’s mainly for aesthetic cases. But I do have a lot of people that they ask about where [00:40:10] cases and full mouth. And I’m like, okay guys, but I can’t explain this in.

[BOTH]: What [00:40:15] are you using? Which composite?

Chiara Burgio: Uh, GC.

[BOTH]: Gc.

Payman Langroudi: Seems to be the one everyone’s aiming. [00:40:20]

[BOTH]: At, right? It is, it is.

Payman Langroudi: It’s like, um, they’ve got something going on in Japan here [00:40:25] with the with the silane coupler that they’re managing to get flowable strong composites. [00:40:30]

[BOTH]: With.

Chiara Burgio: A huge amount of inorganic.

Payman Langroudi: None of the Germans are able to reproduce [00:40:35] that. Um, the German manufacturers are able to reproduce that. Yet it’s [00:40:40] interesting with the actually the guy from New York, what’s his name, the Japanese [00:40:45] guy.

[BOTH]: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was at Bard, wasn’t he, [00:40:50] last, last year explaining about all of this.

Chiara Burgio: Ah, Yeah. He’s he was teaching us as well there. [00:40:55]

[BOTH]: Yeah I bet. I bet.

Chiara Burgio: He’s amazing. He’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: What what do you struggle with [00:41:00] in dentistry?

Chiara Burgio: In clinical.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:41:05] I’m up for, like, life as well.

[BOTH]: Um. [00:41:10]

Chiara Burgio: I guess I struggle when sometimes I [00:41:15] explain whenever I see a patient, I always try to do a comprehensive [00:41:20] plan, which is a lot of what we do at Kora is practice. Patient [00:41:25] might come for a wisdom tooth extraction. And we’re like, no, you have occlusal interferences. You have, you [00:41:30] know, a lot of other issues, full mouth.

[BOTH]: Full mouth rehab.

Chiara Burgio: But I only came [00:41:35] for this. Yeah, but you need, you know, all of that. So I think [00:41:40] I, I learned, um, I’m trying to learn every day more about how to [00:41:45] communicate properly with patients. I think that’s and also because English is not my first language. [00:41:50]

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Chiara Burgio: So I find it tricky sometimes to to communicate, so I guess [00:41:55] I struggle with that.

Payman Langroudi: How does English rank like? Which number language is it for you for? [00:42:00]

[BOTH]: I mean.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Fourth.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: To [00:42:05] Spanish number one.

Chiara Burgio: So Spanish, French and Italian, they’re all in the same level because [00:42:10] the three of them are my mother tongues. And then I would say it’s English. And last it’s Portuguese. [00:42:15]

Payman Langroudi: It is hard. It is hard, you know, because there’s a lot of especially in [00:42:20] England, there’s a lot of nuance. Yeah. In facial expressions.

[BOTH]: Oh. [00:42:25] Oh my.

Chiara Burgio: God. I remember.

[BOTH]: I.

Chiara Burgio: Saw a patient in London. Um, she was [00:42:30] really upset. And, you know, in, in New York, you say, oh, I’m sorry. You’re you’re mad.

[BOTH]: You know. [00:42:35]

Chiara Burgio: You’re mad. It’s like.

[BOTH]: You’re upset.

Chiara Burgio: You’re angry. But here it means you’re crazy.

[BOTH]: Yeah, [00:42:40] yeah, yeah. And I shouldn’t get it.

Chiara Burgio: She didn’t get it. And I said, oh, I’m sorry, you’re really mad. And she [00:42:45] was like, what? How can you say that to me? Oh my God.

Payman Langroudi: So you think [00:42:50] you think you’re a little bit less strong than you would want to be in communication?

Chiara Burgio: I [00:42:55] think I need to I think I need to learn how to.

Payman Langroudi: Experience.

Chiara Burgio: Again. It’s experience and [00:43:00] I try to use photos. Photos is a big part of how to communicate. When they see it, they understand [00:43:05] it. If you have a crack there, there. I don’t see any crack for sure. Just look. You show [00:43:10] the photo with the camera and they see it immediately. So I try to [00:43:15] do that, but it’s it’s tough.

Payman Langroudi: And and you do that sort of I’m sure I’m sure Corey does [00:43:20] like the sort of phase one, phase two, phase three, sort of green, amber red.

Chiara Burgio: Yes. [00:43:25]

Payman Langroudi: Of of explaining a treatment plan to a patient.

Chiara Burgio: Yes. I [00:43:30] always try to explain what’s the priority and start with that. And but [00:43:35] if I see I see a lot of, a lot of where cases and a lot of patients [00:43:40] that they’ve been coming to the practice maybe for many years in other practices and maybe [00:43:45] no one’s mentioned it. And then the patient is like, oh yeah, you know, actually I [00:43:50] realised that my teeth have become, uh, really short and I don’t know why. And [00:43:55] I’m like, yeah. And then you start going deeper and deeper, and then you ask about sleep apnoea and they’re like, yeah, I actually [00:44:00] I don’t sleep well. And I’m actually going for a test for sleep apnoea. And then you’re like, wow. You know, [00:44:05] you start asking questions and then the patient is looking at you like, wow, you know, you look so young, but how did you [00:44:10] even figure out that I had sleep apnoea? So yeah, it’s all [00:44:15] of these things. They take time.

Payman Langroudi: Explaining all that is quite difficult, right?

Chiara Burgio: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:44:20]

Chiara Burgio: And sometimes you don’t even have the time to explain all of that. Yeah. In a first consultation.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:44:25] now at Kori’s practice. Yeah. Is it I [00:44:30] mean you work at another practice as well.

Chiara Burgio: Yes. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: It’s quite, quite different.

Chiara Burgio: The patients um [00:44:35] both practices, they have really demanding patients to be honest. Yeah. Because the [00:44:40] other practices in South Ken and it’s still an area where.

Payman Langroudi: French patients.

Chiara Burgio: French [00:44:45] patients are hard. They’re hard. It helps, though, when I start speaking in French [00:44:50] to them immediately.

Payman Langroudi: French patients want to know everything. Yeah. And I think [00:44:55] trust is quite low with them as compared to German patients. I don’t know if you’ve had any of those. Brilliant. [00:45:00]

Chiara Burgio: A lot of German patients, because my boss there is German. So we have German community. [00:45:05] I love German patients.

Payman Langroudi: They just want. They just.

Chiara Burgio: Trust you.

Payman Langroudi: Go ahead. Go for it. And they [00:45:10] want the best of everything. Yes, yes. And I love the way they don’t care about gold. No. You [00:45:15] know.

Chiara Burgio: Most of them, they have a lot of gold restorations. They look fine. They’re perfect. It’s [00:45:20] probably better than the onlays that we’re doing nowadays.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. You see some 30 year old gold [00:45:25] inlay? Only thing that looks still working exactly like it should. Right. Yeah, [00:45:30] yeah. Those noises are really interesting. You know, like you said, you wanted to work in Paris. It [00:45:35] would have been every single patient, right?

Chiara Burgio: I’m actually happy I’m not working. I’m [00:45:40] happy I never. I never went [00:45:45] to Paris. It’s not a city that I love anyway.

Payman Langroudi: So, yeah, I [00:45:50] feel like there’s racial tension.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, like like like you can feel it.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah, [00:45:55] yeah, you can.

Payman Langroudi: In Paris, there’s racial tension everywhere. But in Paris, you can really feel it, you know? [00:46:00]

Chiara Burgio: Yeah, much more, I think, than in other places.

Payman Langroudi: What about the sort of the rich, poor divide in Brazil? Did [00:46:05] you feel that? Because there’s a bunch of very rich people in Brazil and then a bunch of very poor people? [00:46:10]

Chiara Burgio: I mean, we didn’t treat rich people for sure already? Yeah. No, no.

Payman Langroudi: Um, because [00:46:15] you were in university.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah, we were in university. Yeah. And, uh, we honestly, [00:46:20] we I lived a life there, which was very. I wasn’t in touch with [00:46:25] anyone that had money there at all. So even the people [00:46:30] that we were going out with and having fun with, they were, you know, our surf [00:46:35] professors, you know, people that we met on the beach. I mean, it was really it was really like [00:46:40] another environment. So. Yeah, there is a massive [00:46:45] discrepancy in Brazil for sure.

Payman Langroudi: Um, did you travel around Brazil a little bit?

Chiara Burgio: Yeah, I did. I [00:46:50] did travel a lot, actually. Um.

Payman Langroudi: South America, South America. [00:46:55]

Chiara Burgio: Just Brazil at that moment. South America, I had gone when I was third year of [00:47:00] uni. I did some volunteer work in Bolivia, and I travelled to Peru as well [00:47:05] that that year. But no, when I was in Brazil I only travelled. Brazil is so massive. [00:47:10] It’s huge, it’s huge.

Payman Langroudi: So you didn’t make it to Argentina?

Payman Langroudi: No no no [00:47:15] no no no I know.

Payman Langroudi: How did you miss that?

Payman Langroudi: I know I did. [00:47:20]

Chiara Burgio: I did a lot, you know, I did, uh, some Paulo I did a few days in the [00:47:25] in the jungle. That wasn’t so fun. And then [00:47:30] I did, uh, Jericho, Kolkata, I did, yeah, I did a lot of places.

Payman Langroudi: What does the [00:47:35] future hold?

Payman Langroudi: I mean, are you are you literally, like, living day by day, or are [00:47:40] you thinking you’re gonna be in London for another three years or five years or what? What are you thinking? [00:47:45]

Chiara Burgio: For sure. I want to stay here a bit longer than two years, which is what I’ve been [00:47:50] doing for the past five years. Only two years in every place. Yeah. So now [00:47:55] it’s been one year almost in London. I think I want to [00:48:00] stay here for, for a while, at least five years, I would say, and also because I want [00:48:05] to see my mistakes. And if I always move, I’ll never see [00:48:10] if the vineyards I fitted, you know, are gonna stay for ten years or two. I’ll never know. [00:48:15] I mean, I’m in touch with most of my patients from New York. We email each other from time to time, [00:48:20] and so I’m sure that I would know if something were to happen. But still, [00:48:25] it’s better to stay in the same place and learn from your mistakes. And that’s what most clinicians tell me [00:48:30] that you have. You have to stay and see how things go. So [00:48:35] the plan is to stay for now. Let’s see.

Payman Langroudi: But that’s almost like a clinical reason to stay. But what about like, life [00:48:40] wise? I mean, do you like London?

Chiara Burgio: Yes, I like London. I think, though, [00:48:45] it’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Difficult.

Chiara Burgio: City.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the worst thing about London?

Chiara Burgio: The [00:48:50] weather?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but outside of the weather.

Chiara Burgio: Outside of [00:48:55] the weather? Um, I think dentistry to do [00:49:00] proper dentistry here. It’s tricky. And you have to find the right places [00:49:05] to do it in.

Payman Langroudi: Because of the NHS and all that.

Chiara Burgio: Because of the NHS and all that. Yeah, [00:49:10] but honestly, I’m. I’m happy here and now. I, my boyfriend [00:49:15] was in New York. He managed to find a job in London. So.

Payman Langroudi: Dentistry.

Chiara Burgio: No no.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Chiara Burgio: Oh, uh, not [00:49:20] at all. Better. Uh, so now he he [00:49:25] moved to London. So we’re based both of us here. My family is here. I want to stay. I want to stay, for sure. [00:49:30]

Payman Langroudi: But what’s the worst thing about London outside of the weather and dentistry?

Chiara Burgio: The [00:49:35] visa issue is a [00:49:40] big problem for me. Um, I [00:49:45] cannot think of anything else.

Payman Langroudi: You know, what I’m getting to is like, I don’t know. You’ve got this sort of [00:49:50] Mediterranean upbringing. Yeah. Do you find something lacking in London from that perspective?

Payman Langroudi: Like. Yeah. [00:49:55]

Payman Langroudi: Like, for instance. Let me let me. I once heard a footballer and he was he, he’d moved to [00:50:00] Spain for football and then he just stayed. And the guy was [00:50:05] asking him, you know why? Yeah. And he said, look, he said, there’s about a hundred things that are right [00:50:10] about London that are wrong in Spain. But there’s about five [00:50:15] things that are right in Spain that’s wrong in London. It’s those five things. He didn’t even say what they [00:50:20] were.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s those five things. And I kind of for me, it really resonated like [00:50:25] the almost the community feel is lost here a little [00:50:30] bit.

Payman Langroudi: I warmth.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. That’s why most of my [00:50:35] friends here they’re Italian or Spanish or French. I [00:50:40] don’t have a lot of British friends.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very early for you. It’s very early for you.

Chiara Burgio: I haven’t [00:50:45] been here long enough.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chiara Burgio: Anyways. But yes, I guess. Yeah, the for sure [00:50:50] the, the community thing is. But there is a big community of European people here anyway, so [00:50:55] you don’t really feel alone in that sense.

Payman Langroudi: Uh huh.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:51:00] okay. What are the things like if you think about in Madrid that are wrong, that [00:51:05] are right here?

Chiara Burgio: Um.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll [00:51:10] tell you what I love about here. Anonymity.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. [00:51:15]

Payman Langroudi: You can walk anywhere you like without [00:51:20] worrying.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What you’re wearing.

Chiara Burgio: That’s like New York.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:51:25] anonymous nature of it, which is it’s almost it’s also the worst thing about it as well. Right. Because it can be [00:51:30] very lonely like you think, how can he be lonely in a town with 10 million people. [00:51:35] It’s one.

Payman Langroudi: Of the loveliest.

Payman Langroudi: Towns in.

Payman Langroudi: The world.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, new York to.

Payman Langroudi: New York, for sure. For sure. [00:51:40]

Chiara Burgio: New York, if you feel alone in New York, you really feel alone.

Payman Langroudi: I went to [00:51:45] New York twice. The first time. Literally didn’t know anyone. Second, second [00:51:50] time. I knew lots of people. It’s a totally different town, like, you know, completely [00:51:55] different.

Chiara Burgio: Completely different.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You need to know stuff there. [00:52:00] You need to know what’s going on.

Payman Langroudi: Yes.

Chiara Burgio: And you need to know people that have been living there for a [00:52:05] while so they can guide you a little bit around the city, because it’s tricky.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:52:10] the question of living there, I think in America, [00:52:15] I don’t know, I like I like New York and I like, um, I like New Orleans. [00:52:20] Probably not to live. I don’t know. Um, but the question of living there or living in [00:52:25] London. Yeah. Again, you’d imagine they’re quite similar experiences, but they’re not.

Payman Langroudi: No, they’re [00:52:30] very.

Chiara Burgio: Very different cities. Yeah, in a way they’re similar. But I [00:52:35] also, you know, it’s all about who you surround yourself with and how you experience [00:52:40] every city. It’s mainly about who you surround yourself with. It’s not so much about the city [00:52:45] itself because, you know, in Brazil there was nothing to do there. And I had I made [00:52:50] great friends and I had a lot of fun, but if I were to be fully alone there, I would have been really, [00:52:55] really lonely. So yeah, I think [00:53:00] all these big cities there, it’s difficult to live in them and to find your way and but [00:53:05] you, if you meet people, the right people, and you have the right friends and the right community, [00:53:10] they’re great.

Payman Langroudi: I really like Madrid.

Payman Langroudi: I really like.

Payman Langroudi: It. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s [00:53:15] funny because.

Payman Langroudi: Over here it changed.

Chiara Burgio: A lot. Also, it wasn’t like that when I was living there. It became much more international [00:53:20] now.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Chiara Burgio: A lot of South American people moved there. A lot of Argentinian, [00:53:25] a lot of Mexican people. They started opening a lot of restaurants. [00:53:30] Yeah. All these people, you know, they had a lot of money. So they came and they started investing. Um, [00:53:35] a lot in the food industry and restaurants and nightclubs. So it [00:53:40] changed, changed a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think you’re gonna open your own practice?

Chiara Burgio: I’m not sure anymore. [00:53:45] For a long time, I really wanted to. Now I’m not sure. [00:53:50] I think I.

Payman Langroudi: Changed.

Chiara Burgio: I think I realised [00:53:55] that for all these years, dentistry has been my main thing. You know, I moved [00:54:00] countries. I did all of these things only for dentistry. Mainly for dentistry. And [00:54:05] I don’t want it to be the centre of my life that much anymore. I think [00:54:10] I, I want to do other things. So I actually launched a Start-Up with my [00:54:15] sister when I was living in Italy. Um, it was related to the to the [00:54:20] dental field, but, uh, it didn’t work out in the end. We [00:54:25] we stopped because it wasn’t the right moment, but it made me realise that I’m open [00:54:30] to that entrepreneur, um, world as well. And [00:54:35] I know opening your own practice, it’s also entrepreneurial, but it really [00:54:40] ties you up to the place. And as you can see from my CV and from everything, I [00:54:45] don’t know if I like that feeling of being tied to one place. And I think having a practice does [00:54:50] that to you. Very few people manage to have their practice and move around. I mean, Doctor [00:54:55] APA, yes. He you know, he has practised in Dubai and he can move around and not [00:55:00] be in just one place. But I think it’s actually difficult to do that.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the wrong job, isn’t [00:55:05] it? It’s the wrong. Dentistry is the wrong job for that nomadic lifestyle. [00:55:10] Um, and it’s the worst thing about the job, right? That you have to kind of turn up. Yeah, yeah, because [00:55:15] a lot of jobs you don’t have to turn up for. Like, you could work from home. You can work from Bali if you want. Yeah. [00:55:20] Um, but dentistry, I mean, that’s just got a lot of advantages, but that’s the kind of the main disadvantage [00:55:25] of it. Um, so what start up? What if you still [00:55:30] got, like, start up ambitions?

Chiara Burgio: Yes, yes.

Payman Langroudi: For sure. Quite interesting that. What [00:55:35] are you saying?

Chiara Burgio: So I launched I launched the Start-Up with my sister. My sister [00:55:40] is in the venture capital world.

Payman Langroudi: So she she she.

Chiara Burgio: She had launched her own Start-Up [00:55:45] and sold it, uh, back when we were both living in Italy. When I was living in Milan, my sister was [00:55:50] there too. And I remember I had this idea, you know, I hate the scrubs [00:55:55] that we have. And and at that moment, figs was really not a thing [00:56:00] in Europe at least. And I remember telling this to my sister, you know, I hate the scrubs. And [00:56:05] she said, okay, look, if you had this idea for sure, they had it in the US. And for sure something [00:56:10] exists in the US. So obviously there was figs. Yeah. Um, I [00:56:15] hadn’t known I didn’t know anything about figs. And yeah, so we basically launched [00:56:20] a scrubs company. Um, and it was a lot of work. [00:56:25] And I ended up after these two years in Milan. I was really, really [00:56:30] burnt out because I was working full time as a dentist, and then I had the Start-Up on the side. And, [00:56:35] you know, I was coming back from work at 8 p.m. and then I was working until midnight with my sister. It was [00:56:40] a lot. So I realised that if I want to have an A business [00:56:45] on the side, I can’t work full time as a dentist. So that [00:56:50] was the learning thing. And now I have some ideas sometimes that [00:56:55] come to mind, but I want I want to wait to have the right one and to have the right [00:57:00] setup to do it as well. So maybe be a bit more free from the clinical [00:57:05] part of dentistry and have more time to think.

Payman Langroudi: You can, you know, you.

Chiara Burgio: Can develop.

Payman Langroudi: That in [00:57:10] order to do that. Yeah, I would say two days a week of dentistry. Yeah. And [00:57:15] then the rest on that project. Totally doable. Yeah, I did that for years. Yeah. [00:57:20] Uh, while we were doing this. Right. Um, three days. I’d [00:57:25] say it’s too much, though. It’s interesting.

Chiara Burgio: So you did. How many years of two days? [00:57:30]

Payman Langroudi: I did many years of one day. Okay. One day as well. But [00:57:35] what I’m saying is, because I’ve done one, two, three, four, five, I’ve noticed the sweet [00:57:40] spots are two and three. Okay. One just isn’t enough. It was a big mistake. [00:57:45] You know, you’re just not in the rhythm. Yeah. Something goes wrong. You don’t really care. You’re just one day [00:57:50] a week. You know, it’s like it’s not even. I’d say one day a week in one practice like you’re doing there. All [00:57:55] right. Cause the standards are so high, nothing’s going to slip as badly. Right. But the [00:58:00] rhythm just isn’t correct. Whereas two days, it feels like a hobby. And [00:58:05] it’s enough that, you know, you’re bringing some money in to feed yourself for the sake of the argument. Right. [00:58:10] And it gives you three full week days to work on something else. And [00:58:15] I know some dentists that they do that and they have a property business on [00:58:20] the three days. I know some dentists who for three days go yoga and self-care [00:58:25] and kids. That’s another thing. Kids and all that. Um, [00:58:30] but like I almost call it two days is like a hobby. Three days is like, it’s a job. It [00:58:35] feels like a job at three days a week. Um. And it’s good. All right. Do a job. But then to [00:58:40] do a whole Start-Up next to a job quite hard. Yeah, the scrubs is quite interesting [00:58:45] what you’re saying here, because we had this clever idea of just like, let’s send out free amazing [00:58:50] scrubs to our users. Yeah. Um, then you look at it. Yeah. And you realise [00:58:55] if you have to have small, medium, large, extra large, even extra [00:59:00] small, right. That’s five sizes for one top. Yeah. [00:59:05] In one colour. Yeah. And then the same thing for the trouser bit. And then that’s [00:59:10] just one colour. That’s ten things. Ten, ten minimum orders you’ve had to order. That’s [00:59:15] only one style and one colour. Yeah. So just make it three styles and three colours. Suddenly you’ve got [00:59:20] to order so much different stuff, right?

Chiara Burgio: It’s tricky for.

Payman Langroudi: Sure.

Chiara Burgio: The scrubs. The issue [00:59:25] is. Yeah, the sizes and and.

Payman Langroudi: Think of it.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. And I remember we had, [00:59:30] you know, some problems in the beginning with the side. The sizing was really difficult to do. [00:59:35] And you know we had some people know I’m actually a small in the top and an extra [00:59:40] large. So yeah, it was.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Someone told me what did she say? She said small [00:59:45] is too small for me, but medium is too large. So okay. So [00:59:50] what other what other Start-Up ideas have you had? Or are you not in a position to discuss those? [00:59:55] Sorry. What? What other Start-Up ideas?

Chiara Burgio: Um. I [01:00:00] had I had one recently because so [01:00:05] many patients are asking about how to clean their retainers and how [01:00:10] to keep them clean. And I know that there are a lot of, you know, these pots that they sell [01:00:15] ultrasonic pots, but I think they don’t work really, really well. So I was thinking of. [01:00:20]

Payman Langroudi: That.

Chiara Burgio: Thing. That thing? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Not bad, not bad. Um, the. [01:00:25] It’s a funny, you know, that when you ask someone about an idea. Yeah. [01:00:30] A lot of times they don’t want to tell you.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah, but it’s all about how you implement it, right? Right. [01:00:35] They all say that.

Payman Langroudi: The first thing. First of all. Yeah, the fact, the idea that I’m going to drop my 14 ideas in [01:00:40] my head. Yeah, yeah. To do your your idea here, it’s just madness. Like [01:00:45] like your idea is so brilliant. It’s through to 14 in my head.

Chiara Burgio: And they make you sign an NDA otherwise. [01:00:50] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But secondly, what you’re saying about execution. Yeah. My team came up to me with this [01:00:55] idea for Halloween. Yeah. And they described the idea to me, and I said, that’s a shit idea. [01:01:00] It’s a terrible idea.

Chiara Burgio: What was the idea?

Payman Langroudi: It’s basically the the zombie. [01:01:05] Yeah, yeah. And it goes backwards from zombie to to a pretty girl. Okay. But by [01:01:10] taking makeup off and and then, you know, brushing her teeth without toothpaste and whitening its teeth with [01:01:15] a trays and all that, and then the zombie becomes a human. You know, like I said, it’s ridiculous. Like a [01:01:20] stupid idea. Yeah. Um, they ignored me and they went ahead [01:01:25] and did it. And it got yesterday. I thought at 1.6 million views. No way. They [01:01:30] were right. No, but it was in the execution. It was in the execution. Right. Because the idea [01:01:35] is just an idea. But it’s.

Chiara Burgio: All about how.

Payman Langroudi: The execution was, was unbelievable. [01:01:40] Brilliant execution. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I mean, it’s a [01:01:45] bit like me saying to you, I’ve got an idea for a bar in Soho. Is it a good idea or a bad idea? [01:01:50] Well, it depends. It depends what I do. Right? Depends. I could do [01:01:55] the most coolest thing or the most stupid thing. They’d both be a bar in Soho, right? [01:02:00]

Chiara Burgio: That’s so true.

Payman Langroudi: So you don’t know if you’re going to have a practice. You [01:02:05] do know you’re going to stay in London?

Chiara Burgio: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: For the for the sort of foreseeable.

Chiara Burgio: And I [01:02:10] think opening a practice in London is really expensive as well.

Payman Langroudi: Everything [01:02:15] is expensive.

Chiara Burgio: Yes. But, you know, it might be easier in other cities to open a practice. [01:02:20] You need less.

Payman Langroudi: Less competition?

Chiara Burgio: Yeah, but also less investment. [01:02:25] You know, less initial investment.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But then, you know, the prices. You’re used to it. You’re [01:02:30] not going to see outside London. Yeah. Yeah. You’re not. And one thing I’ve noticed about dentistry [01:02:35] prices is it’s very nice and easy to go up, but it’s so painful [01:02:40] to come down. Yeah. You know, if you’re used to a crown being £1,600, [01:02:45] and then you go to some, some practice in Birmingham or wherever, £600. [01:02:50] Yeah. It’s it’s very, very, very, very hard to sort of get used [01:02:55] to that new pricing. Um, I don’t know. Are [01:03:00] you maybe, maybe, maybe opening a practice isn’t the right thing for you for for many different [01:03:05] reasons. Yeah, for many different reasons. I think the best one is this one. If you’ve really got that flame [01:03:10] inside you that you want to start a start up. Yeah. Then you’re right. Having a practice [01:03:15] under your name will make that much less likely. Much [01:03:20] less likely.

Chiara Burgio: And once you have it, you you have to be there all the time.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:03:25] Yeah. Um. Why, though? Why do you want to do a Start-Up? Like, [01:03:30] what? Does it excite you?

Chiara Burgio: Yes. A lot. And I even thought at [01:03:35] some point to drop dentistry when I had my, my Start-Up with my sister because things were going really well. [01:03:40] Yeah. So. And we both had full time jobs. And at some point [01:03:45] we kind of said, you know, what should we do? Should we drop everything? And, you know, just do this. [01:03:50] But then I got into the program in New York and it was a whole thing. And then I decided to to [01:03:55] be continue being focussed in dentistry. But I really missed [01:04:00] that feeling that I had. It was exciting, you know, meeting I was meeting a lot of people, [01:04:05] uh.

Payman Langroudi: Investors and.

Chiara Burgio: The like. No, not [01:04:10] that, not only that, but mainly, you know, because you have a Start-Up, you have to socialise [01:04:15] a lot. You have to get to know a lot of people. You have to learn a lot of communication, skillset, [01:04:20] how to sell your idea. Why are these jobs better than other scrubs? And I that [01:04:25] was great. I mean, it was an incredible learning experience for me and it helps me also to this day [01:04:30] with dentistry. Not that, you know, I sell dentistry, but you [01:04:35] know what I mean.

Payman Langroudi: You do. In the end, we’re all selling continuously to each other, to to our staff [01:04:40] and our patients. There’s no doubt about that. Yeah, there’s no doubt. But I.

Chiara Burgio: Miss [01:04:45] that. I miss that.

Payman Langroudi: I’m quite interested in this notion of, you know, almost the creativity [01:04:50] of a Start-Up and how in dentistry, almost creativity [01:04:55] sort of wrung out of you. Yeah, in a way, because like, in a way, I know we kind of think [01:05:00] we’re artists and and all of that. That’s quite nice.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah, I like that the [01:05:05] moment.

Payman Langroudi: Because you’re what I used to do, I used to when I was a dentist, I used to [01:05:10] put classical music and then composite bonding with the brush. And I just [01:05:15] feel like, yeah, I just feel like I’m so more important than I actually was. By [01:05:20] brushing this composite with a, with a classical music playing in the background, constantly [01:05:25] having these arguments with my nurse about the music. Yeah. And I used to tell, look, I like [01:05:30] classical a little bit. Yeah. But I it’s not, it’s not for me. It’s for the patient. Yeah. And not because [01:05:35] the patient likes classical, but because classical is more expensive music. You know, it’s [01:05:40] more important music. It’s put some cello on. Um, [01:05:45] a couple of quick fire [01:05:50] questions. What comes to mind if I say, what’s the best lecture [01:05:55] you’ve ever been to?

Chiara Burgio: It was in New York, and one [01:06:00] of my professors that had that is called restraint. He did the full program [01:06:05] of choice. And the end of the I remember the lecture ended [01:06:10] and I was like, what the hell? I don’t know anything about dentistry. [01:06:15]

Payman Langroudi: Was it about full mouth?

Chiara Burgio: It was about occlusion. How to diagnose occlusal dysfunction, [01:06:20] anterior constriction, how to deprogram patients cause deprogram. I was like, what? You [01:06:25] know, I came from it was dental school. Yes. And then two years of working as [01:06:30] a general dentist, which I was doing single tooth dentistry. I never thought about. Okay, [01:06:35] why is this? I remember he started the lecture like, do [01:06:40] you ever wonder why a patient comes and he’s saying, yeah, my tooth keeps, [01:06:45] my crown keeps falling off, or my, my tooth keeps cracking. Why is that? I never [01:06:50] thought about that before. And yes, there is a reason behind that. So after [01:06:55] after his lecture, I, I became a bit obsessed with Kois and I started reading [01:07:00] a lot of articles on it.

Payman Langroudi: And did you do Kois?

Chiara Burgio: No, I want [01:07:05] to I want to do it. I’m, I speak. Uh. I started speaking [01:07:10] a lot with, uh, Andy Chandra because his Co is trained as well. Yeah. And, [01:07:15] yeah, he’s helping me out with some cases, and. Yeah, I [01:07:20] want to do it.

Payman Langroudi: I want to do it. Another another one of the quick fire questions is which course [01:07:25] are you desperate to do?

Chiara Burgio: I want to do course. But there’s a [01:07:30] wait list and it’s so expensive as well. I’ll probably end up going in in [01:07:35] 2030.

Payman Langroudi: When are you going to get back all this money you’ve spent on courses?

Chiara Burgio: No you don’t. I mean, I [01:07:40] guess you don’t in a way. You you don’t really, uh. Get back. I mean, in the long term, [01:07:45] maybe, but not immediately for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes you think, you know, all this investment in [01:07:50] dentistry is even worth it. It’s not.

Payman Langroudi: So it depends. It depends. [01:07:55]

Chiara Burgio: Not really. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: What would you say if I said to you, um, [01:08:00] that the best resource Dental resource could [01:08:05] be a book, could be a website.

Chiara Burgio: I [01:08:10] really like. Um, and I had this. I have this book since I was in dental [01:08:15] school. It’s Ronaldo Virata’s book recipes one.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chiara Burgio: It’s the one [01:08:20] before. It’s the one before recipes that.

Payman Langroudi: The older.

Chiara Burgio: One. Yeah, it’s really good. And especially [01:08:25] when you start doing composites, it’s so clear. And you are. He [01:08:30] makes it easy, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant.

Chiara Burgio: I’ve been I’ve been to many courses or [01:08:35] lectures where they say, okay, I did this composite and I used ten types of composites. [01:08:40] I mean, who can buy ten types of different brands and has all of that, unless [01:08:45] it’s your own practice or unless you do only composites every day, you you don’t [01:08:50] have all that material. So you need something that’s easy and that you can replicate easily [01:08:55] and that you don’t need thousands of materials to do. And I think that’s why what [01:09:00] makes him a great teacher is that he simplifies. He simplifies it in a way that it looks nice. [01:09:05]

Payman Langroudi: You know, like like some teachers do the opposite. Complicate things.

Chiara Burgio: A lot. [01:09:10] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Unnecessarily. Sometimes unnecessarily. And it’s a real talent, [01:09:15] right? To be able to cover the both the breadth and the depth in a subject. [01:09:20] Yeah. You know, that’s the difference between a brilliant teacher and a not so brilliant teacher is [01:09:25] they can manage to do both. Yeah. You know, but keep it in English right at the end of the day. [01:09:30] Yeah. Just teeth. Right? Yeah.

Chiara Burgio: People [01:09:35] that are not in dentistry, they really wonder. I mean, how much can you know and [01:09:40] learn about teeth? But the more you, the more you learn, the more you realise there [01:09:45] is so much more to do and learn.

Payman Langroudi: So do you remember a time when you weren’t. So I’m [01:09:50] going to call it ambitious. I mean, ambitious is a funny [01:09:55] word for it, but like, you know why? Why do you have to be this 28 year old who’s constantly learning [01:10:00] and going on courses and, you know, there are plenty, the vast majority of people qualified [01:10:05] dental school, go work in a practice, get married, have children, whatever. [01:10:10] You know.

Chiara Burgio: I was always obsessed with the idea of [01:10:15] doing things perfectly, um, since I was young. And I think in [01:10:20] dentistry, I’m still doing that, and I’m still always looking to do the [01:10:25] best treatment, the best way. And I’m someone that if I feel like I didn’t do the best [01:10:30] for my patient, I. It will follow me, you know, in my dreams at night.

Payman Langroudi: Like a [01:10:35] karma thing.

Chiara Burgio: Yes, almost like a karma thing, I guess. But I, [01:10:40] I am, I don’t know, I get a lot of satisfaction when [01:10:45] I know that I did something in the best possible way and following the protocols [01:10:50] and the literature and. Yeah, that’s how I. That’s how I [01:10:55] get. That’s how that’s how I am happy, you know.

Payman Langroudi: That’s where you get your [01:11:00] satisfaction.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But but then do you not get things like perfection, paralysis? [01:11:05] Like, if you’re writing a lecture, if it’s not perfect, you’re not going to put [01:11:10] it out.

Chiara Burgio: And no, no but no, no, I wouldn’t say [01:11:15] that. No, it’s not that bad. Especially with lectures I, [01:11:20] I am, I am a bit more free in that sense. I don’t mind doing. Do you consider yourself [01:11:25] ambitious? Yes. Yes, yes.

Payman Langroudi: Have you always been?

Chiara Burgio: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What were you? [01:11:30] An ambitious seven year old?

Chiara Burgio: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Chiara Burgio: Really really really really really. Because I, I [01:11:35] did a lot of sports also when I was young. Oh, yeah. So I was [01:11:40] always very competitive, really, always in sports and in school. And I [01:11:45] always, I always wanted to be the best.

Payman Langroudi: So look, the plus [01:11:50] side of that is pretty obvious. What’s the minor side of it?

Chiara Burgio: I think sometimes [01:11:55] you have to care a bit less for your own happiness, and I [01:12:00] find it difficult to sometimes to go home and not think about my patients and my cases, [01:12:05] and I go home and look at the photos. I try to plan the case and I do this and I think about it. And then [01:12:10] I ask my colleagues and friends, and I send the photos and I’m like, okay, what about this? Do you think this is? And [01:12:15] it’s, oh my God. You know, at some point it’s like, enough of dentistry, you have to think about something [01:12:20] else. And I think there is a fine line in which, yes, [01:12:25] ambition is important, but then it almost becomes a bit toxic for you. So [01:12:30] it’s always being careful of not toxic ambition. [01:12:35]

Payman Langroudi: That’s the name of a band. Toxic. Let’s start a band. Toxic ambition. [01:12:40] It’s been amazing talking to [01:12:45] you. I’ve enjoyed it a lot. We’re going to end with our usual questions. First, [01:12:50] it’s a dinner party. Fantasy dinner party? Yeah. Three guests, dead [01:12:55] or alive. Who are you having? Do you like cooking?

Chiara Burgio: I [01:13:00] love cooking.

Payman Langroudi: Do you?

Chiara Burgio: Do you? Yeah, I love cooking.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent.

Chiara Burgio: Uh, I was actually gonna say, um. [01:13:05] Cedric Grolet. He’s a very famous pastry chef.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Is he gonna have someone [01:13:10] else do the cooking?

Chiara Burgio: He [01:13:15] can cook for the dinner party. Uh, yes, I would say him. [01:13:20] I would say definitely. Coins on coins. Coins?

Payman Langroudi: Coins at the dinner [01:13:25] party?

Chiara Burgio: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have you met him?

Chiara Burgio: No. That’s why.

Payman Langroudi: This is why.

Chiara Burgio: That’s why I have to go [01:13:30] to Seattle at some point and meet him.

Payman Langroudi: And why [01:13:35] don’t you invite spear as well? Then they can have. They can argue with each other.

Chiara Burgio: And [01:13:40] I would say Ingrid Betancourt. Oh, really? Yeah. [01:13:45] I read her book. Uh, and it was really.

Payman Langroudi: For someone who [01:13:50] doesn’t know. Explain who that who that is.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. So she was basically kidnapped by [01:13:55] the spark in Colombia For. I think it was 8 or 9 years. [01:14:00] And she wrote this autobiography where she describes [01:14:05] her experience in the jungle because she was kidnapped in the jungle. She was there in the jungle for many years, [01:14:10] and she describes all her attempts of escaping and [01:14:15] how she managed to basically maintain her psychological, [01:14:20] uh, how do you say to not become, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, sanity.

Chiara Burgio: Sanity? Her sanity. Exactly. [01:14:25] And it was really eye opening book because I felt that, wow, [01:14:30] this person has been through so much, and she still managed to to [01:14:35] maintain her sanity and to really basically be [01:14:40] positive and try to escape. And she fought until the end.

Payman Langroudi: So sometimes, [01:14:45] you know, when life becomes very difficult, the best and worst in people [01:14:50] comes out. Yes.

Chiara Burgio: And that’s what the book describes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. Because she was, uh, [01:14:55] also with another person that was kidnapped from her team. And I think [01:15:00] for the other person it was. Yeah, she describes it a bit of the opposite.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:15:05] I haven’t I haven’t read it, but but I heard an interview with, with her and it reminded me of, of, um, [01:15:10] you know, uh, Viktor Frankl, that sort of man’s search for meaning, which [01:15:15] he wrote after the concentration camp. Yeah. Similar kind of vibe. You know, like lessons [01:15:20] you learn about humanity? Yeah. From from from that sort of experience. Very interesting. [01:15:25] Yeah. The final question is a deathbed question. Okay. I know you’re a long [01:15:30] way away from that.

Chiara Burgio: But who knows?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Shit. Um, [01:15:35] three pieces of advice for your loved ones. [01:15:40]

Chiara Burgio: Um, I would say spend as much time with [01:15:45] your family as you can. I think family is really important. Um. And [01:15:50] no one, no one gives you back that time when you lost it. [01:15:55] Um, another piece of advice I would say is do what you love for [01:16:00] sure what you’re passionate about. And don’t spend time doing things that you don’t want to [01:16:05] do. Learn. Learn to say no as well. I think a lot of people, they have issues [01:16:10] saying, no, I don’t want to go there. I don’t want to. I don’t want to go there tonight. I don’t want to spend time with these people and [01:16:15] surround yourself with people that are going to push you to be better [01:16:20] and to be the best version of yourself.

Payman Langroudi: All right. All of those [01:16:25] were like, kind of, um, my name’s Chiara, and this is what I did. Uh, so you should [01:16:30] too. But what about one that’s like, here’s here’s one I wish I did more [01:16:35] of, um, or I was I wish I was a bit less [01:16:40] a bit more.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. Sometimes I wish I, I’d care [01:16:45] a bit less about, um, doing the best.

Payman Langroudi: Or that thing [01:16:50] that you said.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah, probably that I would say.

Payman Langroudi: Give yourself an easier time, right? [01:16:55] Yeah. For sure. It’s been a massive pleasure.

Chiara Burgio: Thank you so much for having [01:17:00] me.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Good luck with everything. Thank you. I’m sure we’ll bump into each other some dinner. [01:17:05]

Chiara Burgio: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

[VOICE]: This is [01:17:10] Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [01:17:15] leaders in dentistry. Your [01:17:20] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:17:25] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge [01:17:30] thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and [01:17:35] what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value [01:17:40] out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a [01:17:45] friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t [01:17:50] forget our six star rating.

[VOICE] : This [00:00:05] is mind movers [00:00:10] moving the conversation forward on mental health [00:00:15] and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:00:20] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskandar: Hello [00:00:25] everyone! Welcome back to Mind Movers. It’s been almost four [00:00:30] months since I have been sat here. We all know my story. It’s all over the internet, but [00:00:35] I’m really pleased to welcome the most amazing woman with [00:00:40] us today. This is Anne Sophie, who’s also known as Coochie [00:00:45] by Gucci. I don’t know where the names come from, but we’ll ask her. But Anne, Sophie and I had met [00:00:50] in a gym class, and I was particularly interested by her neuroscience background [00:00:55] and also about how she was navigating the wellness space, [00:01:00] but within one a corporate setting and also within a setting of helping [00:01:05] females. I actually went to one of her workshops and there was an incredible female empowerment workshop, so I came out feeling [00:01:10] amazing. Um, I also wanted to [00:01:15] invite Anne Sophie because I believe not only does she blend neuroscience, psychology, [00:01:20] and lived experience in a way that cuts through the noise, but I feel that she’s extremely authentic and [00:01:25] she makes science extremely relatable. So she speaks a lot about attachment, boundaries, self-worth, [00:01:30] nervous system, trauma responses, and I can’t wait to get into it. So welcome, [00:01:35] Anne.

Anne-Sophie : Sophie, thank you so much, both of you, for having me. I’m so happy to be here.

Rhona Eskandar: So, [00:01:40] Anne, Sophie, I want you to tell us a little bit about your background. First of [00:01:45] all.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah. So I, um. Never knew what I wanted to do at school or at university. [00:01:50] I actually went to university to study business because I thought, that’s what people [00:01:55] do. They go to university, study business and then do business, [00:02:00] I guess. Um, and I went to my first lecture and it was so boring. I like [00:02:05] completely my brain completely just switched off, and I saw this group of [00:02:10] students walking through to a different lecture centre, and I just decided to tag along and just [00:02:15] drop out of my lecture and see what they were up to. And, um, it happened to be a psychology [00:02:20] lecture and the only books that I’d ever read growing up, I wasn’t really [00:02:25] into novels, wasn’t really into reading much as a child, but I read a lot of psychology books and science books. [00:02:30] And, um, so I sat I sat in this lecture and, um, my, [00:02:35] my, my heart just lit up. I was just all of a sudden so captivated by understanding [00:02:40] the human brain and like, why people behave in certain ways, [00:02:45] why people are prone to depression. And some will never, ever have [00:02:50] that experience in their lives. Or how people navigate going through hardships and difficulties in life. [00:02:55] And I walked up to the professor after the lecture and I told him that I really [00:03:00] enjoyed, um, the session.

Anne-Sophie : And if there was a possibility that I could [00:03:05] change from my business course to psychology and I don’t know, I [00:03:10] don’t know why, but, um, he he did it the next day. [00:03:15] I was, I was a, uh, yeah, in psychology. And it was it turned [00:03:20] out really well, actually, because I had applied for a university where I was pretty [00:03:25] sure that I was going to get in, it was like a safe option. It was Royal Holloway for business. It’s not like one of the best [00:03:30] universities in the UK, but for psychology it was the top seven. [00:03:35] So I ended up then going to a really good university for the topic that I was studying, and everything’s [00:03:40] just kind of gone from there. Um, I feel like I’ve always wanted to understand [00:03:45] people and I wanted to understand myself and my family dynamics. Um, and [00:03:50] then even further to that, understanding the brain. So, so progressing and [00:03:55] doing my master’s and starting my PhD in neuroscience. It was it was more what [00:04:00] is actually happening in the brain when you are feeling this or when you’re doing this. And I [00:04:05] feel like that was a little bit more concrete for me. I’m a very analytical person. And so yeah, from from [00:04:10] there I just kept going with it. Never looked back. And it’s been wonderful.

Payman Langroudi: What was your PhD [00:04:15] on?

Anne-Sophie : So I started my PhD and I quit after about a year and a half. Um, I did [00:04:20] a few different things. We developed an algorithm to alleviate motion sickness in virtual reality headsets. And [00:04:25] this was years ago. So this was at the time where VR was going to be the next big technology. And it [00:04:30] never really took off because you put on a VR headset and people feel sick after a few minutes, actually [00:04:35] happens to women a lot faster than men, but it’s because your visual input doesn’t match your vestibular [00:04:40] input. What your body feels like, what you see doesn’t match where your body feels like it is in space, [00:04:45] and that causes motion sickness. So I published those papers, but [00:04:50] I’d also worked Previously in, um, neuropsychopharmacology. So looking [00:04:55] at the effects of certain drugs and psychedelics on the brain. So I was always kind of like had my hands in different pies, [00:05:00] working in different areas of neuroscience. And I guess that’s why I ended up quitting my PhDs, [00:05:05] because I wasn’t ready to commit to one very specific area [00:05:10] of of science. I’d also been doing stuff with Parkinson’s. So, um, it just [00:05:15] allowed me to, to kind of take that knowledge and put it out into practice in the world of Start-Ups and help [00:05:20] people actually understand their brains.

Rhona Eskandar: So what was it particularly that made you quit the PhD? What [00:05:25] was the kind of point where you’re like, I don’t wanna do this anymore?

Anne-Sophie : Uh, there were a few things, but I was 22 years [00:05:30] old at the time. I had spent my whole life up until that point in academia. Um, [00:05:35] the the year and a half of that, I was doing my PhD and actually the, the year [00:05:40] before, during my master’s, I was sat in the basement [00:05:45] of Charing Cross Hospital in a room with no windows, running [00:05:50] experiments on people earning no money and didn’t have a social life. I [00:05:55] was there on weekends. I just yeah, all of my friends at this point were starting to change careers [00:06:00] and progress into something where they’re earning money and they’re going out and they’re spending money. And meanwhile, I [00:06:05] just I was just so completely removed from that. And I think [00:06:10] I was looking at, you know, the next two years, maybe to finish [00:06:15] the PhD, um, would have been like 25, 26, [00:06:20] maybe still not earning any money, um, missing out on [00:06:25] basically what felt my whole 20s. Yeah. Um, but then also a big part of it was [00:06:30] that this algorithm that we developed, they had we got so much interest from the US Army, [00:06:35] from Samsung, from Oculus, people would come to visit us to try and buy this research.

Anne-Sophie : And I actually spoke [00:06:40] to my professor and I said that we should patent it. Yeah. Instead of selling [00:06:45] it to them, like at a small price, we could probably earn a lot of money if we set up a [00:06:50] company. But if I had stayed at the university, they would have taken 80% of the IP. So I [00:06:55] quit. I became a research assistant, started working at the university, earned [00:07:00] my first salary. It was £1,000 a month, which is also not enough to live on. And [00:07:05] then we started to bootstrap this company, um, this VR company, and obviously with £1,000 [00:07:10] a month that didn’t, didn’t go very well. I think a few months later [00:07:15] I, um, I don’t know, I started baking, uh, [00:07:20] brownies and selling them to the cafe that I lived on top of and tried to earn, like, supplementary [00:07:25] income. And then I was doing, like, ten things at once, and it just. Yeah, just [00:07:30] didn’t work out for me in the end.

Rhona Eskandar: Okay. So obviously there was there’s [00:07:35] always a blessing in that though, right? I find like, you do something and then things don’t take off in the way that you want [00:07:40] and that like kind of propels us into the direction that we want to go. How [00:07:45] are the brownies? Did that business take off.

Anne-Sophie : So so basically the brownies they also it was really it didn’t take [00:07:50] off. It came at a time where I was very interested in health and fitness, because at this point also I became vegan. [00:07:55] Um, and I always had a sweet tooth and I wanted to make sure that I’m still hitting [00:08:00] my macros. So I started making brownies from red beans. Um, and borrowed that [00:08:05] from, uh. I spent a lot of time growing up in Hong Kong. They use red beans a lot for desserts. [00:08:10]

Rhona Eskandar: Love it. Red bean curd cheese. My favourite.

Anne-Sophie : But you can also make brownies. [00:08:15] Did you know from red beans? From courgette? Um, so you get a lot of protein. A lot of fibre. [00:08:20] Sweet potato. Exactly. So I was I was doing that for a while. Um, but. Yeah, just [00:08:25] it was.

Payman Langroudi: So when did you become this Instagram phenomenon?

Rhona Eskandar: Coochie [00:08:30] by Gucci. Explain the name.

Anne-Sophie : It’s not a funny story. Actually, it’s an inside joke. [00:08:35] Um, it was an inside joke from an ex-boyfriend of mine and his his brother, [00:08:40] who has since passed. And. Yeah. And I just [00:08:45] he just, I don’t know, he was spraying this Cologne or something and he’s. And [00:08:50] he said Gucci by Gucci. And I don’t know why it stuck with me. And one day I was like [00:08:55] a little bit tipsy and I changed my Instagram username. I love.

Rhona Eskandar: That.

Anne-Sophie : And then I’ve kept it and it [00:09:00] feels kind of like a bit of an homage. Homage. That’s the word to to him. [00:09:05] Um, but yeah, it’s not there’s there’s.

Rhona Eskandar: Becomes your identity, right? Like [00:09:10] the Instagram it does.

Anne-Sophie : And I’ve tried to change it so many times because I have the verification like it [00:09:15] won’t let me change my username. And I’ve obviously now that I’ve started to post a lot more about [00:09:20] my work and my career, I just I don’t think that it’s very, um, yeah, [00:09:25] relevant to have a username like that. Um, but [00:09:30] at the same time, I knew that. I know that if if it would actually happen, if I changed my username to, you [00:09:35] know, my name or something, I would miss that.

Payman Langroudi: Miss out.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah, it’s it is a part [00:09:40] of my identity. And a lot of people call me coochie now or Chooch [00:09:45] or I love it. Yeah. So.

Rhona Eskandar: I mean, I always like, call people by their Instagram names. [00:09:50] So when I was, I was like, oh my God, I’m seeing this girl in my gym class now I’m gonna have to call her coochie, you [00:09:55] know? And. Okay. So was it your social? So we now know [00:10:00] that, you know, you had a really strong start in academia. Mhm. So you completed the psychology degree, [00:10:05] right?

Anne-Sophie : Completed. Psychology degree. Completed my master’s in experimental neuroscience and then [00:10:10] half of my PhD. So I published all of the papers that were required.

Rhona Eskandar: And then and [00:10:15] then was it the Instagram that propelled your career forward. Let’s talk a little bit about that. [00:10:20]

Anne-Sophie : No. So my Instagram was more of a personal thing. I posted a lot about like lifestyle [00:10:25] and just like London. And yeah, it was at the time where everybody [00:10:30] was posting their coffees. Yeah. Instagram in the morning. Yeah. And I built up a little bit of a following, [00:10:35] but it was, it was very much just personal life and like lifestyle things. [00:10:40] And then during the time of Black Lives Matter and all of that. George Floyd, [00:10:45] it became, because I had at that point, I think it was like 60 or [00:10:50] 70,000 followers. I have a lot less now, obviously, like I’ve gone through a bit of a shift in [00:10:55] my persona and everything and what I post about. Um, but during [00:11:00] that time, I felt a responsibility to use that platform [00:11:05] that I had as a voice for people who maybe didn’t have a voice [00:11:10] or as like a means to. Yeah, just fight for social [00:11:15] justice and like, explain the nuances of certain things that were going on. And [00:11:20] it became. I don’t know, I mean, [00:11:25] I know Rona, like you post a lot about really important things as well.

Anne-Sophie : And when you start doing [00:11:30] that a lot, first of all, you do get shadow banned. You do get a lot of people who are then hating on you [00:11:35] or feel like because you’re talking vulnerably about certain issues in the world, they feel [00:11:40] like that they can attack you or why aren’t you talking about X? Or what about so and so? Or why do you hate us? [00:11:45] And it just becomes like a really big zone of like conflict, [00:11:50] I feel like, and I burn out from that a lot and then shut off my Instagram for three, [00:11:55] three years, I think. Wow. Um, because I just couldn’t take it and I couldn’t be part of [00:12:00] that. And I felt like I, I don’t know, it just it it was it was so all consuming. [00:12:05] Um, it’s still an important part of who I am and what I do and what I try [00:12:10] the, the conversations that I try to have with the people around me, but I feel like I do that in a more considered [00:12:15] approach now versus just like shouting out into the abyss. Yeah, yeah. [00:12:20]

Rhona Eskandar: Um, I think you’re right about that. I mean, would you say that in particular because you were so affected [00:12:25] by political world issues? That was a dark time of your life, you know, did you feel that you [00:12:30] were you know, how people can, you know, empaths in particular take on that, those emotions. [00:12:35] Do you feel that perhaps it had put you in a space in your life, or you’re questioning the world or [00:12:40] questioning the way things are?

Anne-Sophie : Yeah, I think and this is something that I still struggle with quite a lot, [00:12:45] is it’s hard not to let the news consume you. Um, [00:12:50] because what, like a lot of what you see is so awful [00:12:55] that it doesn’t feel right sometimes to live and exist in a world and have your routine and have [00:13:00] your day to day and wake up and have breakfast and take the dogs for a walk and [00:13:05] look up in the sky is blue and I’m not worried about my safety or my security. Um, [00:13:10] and it and then meanwhile, you’re seeing all these images on social media [00:13:15] and the injustices in the world, and you feel like you have no power and you feel like, yeah, [00:13:20] you don’t know how to how to navigate. And sometimes I like I this [00:13:25] happens to me quite a lot. And I need to also still figure out how to [00:13:30] how to navigate it. But I just I lose motivation for anything because [00:13:35] it doesn’t feel right to to carry on with my day to day when I should be [00:13:40] allocating all of my time and all of my resources and all of my attention to other people who are less fortunate. [00:13:45]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you’re the neuroscientist, right? But, you know, our brain wasn’t designed to [00:13:50] know all the bad news in the world. Yeah, no, the news tends to talk about bad news, right? [00:13:55]

Anne-Sophie : Yeah, it’s a consumption of. It’s the consumption of anything, you know. What was [00:14:00] really interesting, you know, I took a hiatus from social media for three months.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:14:05] did it feel?

Anne-Sophie : So, you know, I was actually, you know, I have to I have to confess, because I started scrolling on [00:14:10] TikTok more because obviously I was like, Instagram. And the thing is, it’s funny because for me, TikTok is much more throwaway content. [00:14:15] So I actually find TikTok less triggering than Instagram. And I think also because Instagram [00:14:20] has more of a community vibe, it was more like people I know or people I’ve had conversations [00:14:25] with. So I found it more uncomfortable and I was like, I need to just stay away from it whilst I was processing, whereas I could just like look at [00:14:30] throwaway content on TikTok, you know, like, let’s analyse this like reality program or whatever it is. [00:14:35] Um, but I think when I came back on social media, there was definitely an aspect [00:14:40] of me feeling more stressed. I definitely felt [00:14:45] that there like three. I was like, God, a lot has changed in three months. There was this real sense [00:14:50] of me not feeling good enough, like I feel like content has become so exaggerated. [00:14:55] Like the notion of perfection, particularly on Instagram, is so extreme. [00:15:00] Like, you know what I mean? Like everyone’s like, you have like a gorgeous, like, pantry and the most [00:15:05] perfect home and the most perfect baby and the most perfect husband, and like, the most perfect [00:15:10] friendships, and you’re suddenly, like, unknowingly comparing your [00:15:15] life to other people, you know? And I feel like it, it it doesn’t. [00:15:20] What it does is, is that it shows us that the values that should be important to humanity [00:15:25] are no longer important. So sometimes I feel myself like shift into this kind of compare [00:15:30] and despair, but also forgetting that the things that when I was off social media, like [00:15:35] that connection with my husband and baby was actually really precious. And those connections with people [00:15:40] in real time and in real life, like even meeting you for coffee that day, you know, in the hospital, [00:15:45] appreciating the flowers that you got me. You know, this is all not done via social media. So I [00:15:50] feel like the connection piece is much stronger when you’re offline.

Payman Langroudi: Changed over the last three months [00:15:55] is the fact that you came out of it and then came back into it. You get conditioned, don’t you, to whatever your [00:16:00] life.

Anne-Sophie : I feel like I feel like content has become more extreme in three months.

Payman Langroudi: No way man.

Anne-Sophie : No, I think in general, I.

Anne-Sophie : Think it’s [00:16:05] constantly.

Anne-Sophie : Becoming more extreme. Um, and it’s also there’s so much of it, like, [00:16:10] there’s you’re never going to catch up with everything. And then because of AI and ChatGPT, everybody [00:16:15] is producing content. Everybody is, you know, has something to say. Everybody is an expert [00:16:20] on exercise.

Payman Langroudi: Your brain when you’re doomscrolling.

Anne-Sophie : Oh, it’s just it’s so your brain.

Anne-Sophie : Is [00:16:25] just on high alert. You’re always scouring the environment for any bit of information that you can have [00:16:30] a reactive thought to. And you’re just first of all, there’s the dopamine hit of [00:16:35] it where you’re exposing yourself to so many different dopamine hits that your tolerance [00:16:40] starts to get a lot higher. So, um, day to day activities that [00:16:45] used to be pleasurable to you, it could happen that it’s you don’t really see as much value in it. [00:16:50] Um, and so that’s.

Rhona Eskandar: What I.

Anne-Sophie : Mean, right. Is that is that how you kind of felt because I, when I came off Instagram [00:16:55] for, for those three years, it was a struggle to get back on Instagram. That’s how I felt. I really [00:17:00] didn’t want to I felt such a resistance. But then also the relationships. I had [00:17:05] so many Instagram friends and so, you know, and everybody was keeping me up to date with everything. And everybody was, [00:17:10] um, inviting me to things and parties. And as soon as I shut down my Instagram, I [00:17:15] was sharing just pictures via WhatsApp with the people who you just you find out [00:17:20] who is really close to you. Right? And I wasn’t being invited to as many social events and like, [00:17:25] I was completely out of the loop with London life and whatever, but the things [00:17:30] that I was being invited to, I knew that the people really wanted me there. I knew that they had thought of me. And they’re [00:17:35] like, this is somebody who needs to come or she’s not on Instagram. I can’t just like put a post up. They really [00:17:40] thought about me. And so those relationships in real life did become a lot closer and more [00:17:45] special. And then coming back into Instagram and liking everybody’s stuff and, you [00:17:50] know, people that you’d been friends with, but now you realise it was just an internet friendship. Um, [00:17:55] it just feels different. It feels so. Yeah, not it doesn’t feel [00:18:00] real in a way.

Payman Langroudi: Have you heard about that phenomenon where when they’re making TV shows, they’re making the [00:18:05] plots a lot simpler? Yes, because it’s a second screen. They [00:18:10] know everyone’s on there.

Rhona Eskandar: I was with a friend of mine that was saying, yeah, like definitely the gone are the days of even [00:18:15] series, you know, TV series where you’d have like a really intricate, intricately detailed [00:18:20] episode because people’s attention span, as you said. And that’s why reality TV shows [00:18:25] is such an easy way to get that dopamine.

Payman Langroudi: People are literally on their phones [00:18:30] whilst watching. Watching.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah. So they script.

Anne-Sophie : Them to make it really easy to follow because otherwise [00:18:35] you won’t continue to watch because they already expect.

Anne-Sophie : That you’re going to be.

Anne-Sophie : On your phone on TikTok.

Rhona Eskandar: So [00:18:40] Anne, Sophie, tell me as well how the neuroscience piece actually fits in with the psychology [00:18:45] piece. So I’d like to know from an academic point of view, the degrees are different. And [00:18:50] or did you interweave them? How did that work?

Anne-Sophie : So I started off with a foundational [00:18:55] degree in psychology. So an undergraduate and in the last year. So that’s three years. In the last year I [00:19:00] had a sort of major, that’s not what you call it in the UK. And I did go.

Rhona Eskandar: To university [00:19:05] in the UK for masters. Right.

Payman Langroudi: No majors like the main subject.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah.

Anne-Sophie : Like, yeah. The main subjects [00:19:10] that I was doing was more weighted to the biology of psychology. So this [00:19:15] is kind of like neuroscience. Basically it’s what’s happening in the brain when [00:19:20] you are um, all of the things that you look at when, when you have a psychology degree, [00:19:25] like when if you’re depressed, if you’re anxious, if you have Alzheimer’s, if you have Parkinson’s, all [00:19:30] of these things, what’s actually happening in the brain versus how is it manifesting in [00:19:35] social settings? Um, and from there, I had [00:19:40] this guest lecture from Professor David Nutt, who is this.

Anne-Sophie : Top.

Anne-Sophie : Neuropsychopharmacologist? He’s [00:19:45] amazing. And he wrote a book called Drugs Without the Hot Air. And [00:19:50] it was all about how drugs actually affect the brain and the body. And it was also a [00:19:55] critique on the classification system that we have here in the UK with what is a class A, class B, class C [00:20:00] drug? And he famously got sacked from the government. He was working in government on [00:20:05] drug legislations, and he got sacked because he published a paper that said that horseback riding [00:20:10] is more dangerous to the person, to society. It is more costly on [00:20:15] the NHS. Um, there are more risks associated with it than taking ecstasy. [00:20:20] And he said that therefore ecstasy should not be class A, it should be class C, and [00:20:25] obviously with the government that we have, that’s obviously that’s never something that’s going to be accepted.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah. And [00:20:30] so they sacked him.

Anne-Sophie : And so he became this kind of I’ve always had this this thing for [00:20:35] these academic but socially. Um I [00:20:40] don’t know just daring types. Um, a lot of the books [00:20:45] that I read growing up were from Timothy Leary, who was a Harvard Harvard psychologist as well, [00:20:50] or Harvard psychologist, and he also experimented with psychedelics [00:20:55] and took his students to this, uh, like [00:21:00] a lost mansion somewhere outside of the city. And they would take psychedelics [00:21:05] and they would, you know, write about it and figure out, like, what’s happening.

Payman Langroudi: Um, while we’re on it, [00:21:10] what happens? What does happen when you take a.

Rhona Eskandar: We’ve had lots of we’ve had don’t pretend [00:21:15] we’ve.

Rhona Eskandar: Had.

Payman Langroudi: In the brain. In the brain. Yeah. Um, in the brain. What if you go on ayahuasca.

Rhona Eskandar: And [00:21:20] we’ve had lots of, like, we’ve had Louis Blake, who’s been in on a guest here as well, who’s also [00:21:25] a vegan and massive pioneer of.

Rhona Eskandar: Also a.

Rhona Eskandar: Vegan of psychedelics. [00:21:30] We’ve also had Simon Salter and Andy, who work with Non-psychedelic [00:21:35] mushrooms, obviously with dirty. Yeah. So we’ve had some interesting conversations with people [00:21:40] that have discussed this. I’m a huge advocate of psychedelic therapy, [00:21:45] uh, within therapeutic legal realms, etc. and I think that huge advancements [00:21:50] have been made. There is oh, what’s his name? There is Christian Anglemyer [00:21:55] as well, who I love, who talks has put a lot of money with mental health and mushrooms etc. [00:22:00] but yeah, we’d love to know from the neuroscience point of view how [00:22:05] it benefits.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah.

Anne-Sophie : So I mean, there are so many different things and also depends on the substance that you’re talking about.

Anne-Sophie : But [00:22:10] psilocybin was so, so well. Um, well, so I had this guest.

Anne-Sophie : Lecture from, from [00:22:15] Professor David Nutt. And this was as I was ending my psychology degree, and I remember I didn’t really know what to do afterwards [00:22:20] because I was like, oh, I just did a psychology degree. Like, what do I do now? I can’t go into practice. I’m not a psychologist yet. [00:22:25] Um, but I emailed him and I said, can I do my masters with you? I’m really interested in the work that [00:22:30] you’re doing. And so I applied. He showed me like, how to apply and what to do and, and, um, [00:22:35] applied and ended up getting a master’s and was able to be [00:22:40] in a rotation with him. So I was able to work directly with Professor David Nutt. And during [00:22:45] this time they did the first ever study of, um, what [00:22:50] happens in a human brain, like looking at the brain through MRI, diffusion, [00:22:55] diffusion, tensor imaging, um, where you can see all the neural pathways and [00:23:00] connections. So what’s happening in a brain when somebody is taking psychedelics? And it [00:23:05] was it was actually incredible because it’s the first time that you’re seeing into [00:23:10] somebody’s brain. And what they found was that there [00:23:15] are parts of the brains that are previously not connected because you [00:23:20] think in a kind of a rational way. So you have areas that, um, that wire together, they fire together, [00:23:25] and you kind of lose on on that childlike creativity because you’re not using those [00:23:30] neural pathways. You’re not connecting different parts of your brain. But when you’re taking psychedelics, your [00:23:35] brain resembles more of a childlike state. So you have more connections [00:23:40] between areas that are disparate. So areas that usually don’t communicate are now [00:23:45] communicating. And it’s why you have that greater sense of creativity, or you have these aha [00:23:50] moments, or you see things in a new way because you have a new angle [00:23:55] to them. Um, yeah. So the brain is just more connected.

Rhona Eskandar: Okay. But I’ve got a question for you. [00:24:00] So obviously my parents are very much the era that are against those psychedelics [00:24:05] in particular. Interestingly, my mom went to Berkeley in the 70s, and [00:24:10] there was this notion of people like jumping off buildings and doing things like that. And [00:24:15] obviously you understand from a psychedelic point of view that, you know, perhaps the person [00:24:20] didn’t have the intention of doing that, was seeing things, believed they could fly, etc. but I think [00:24:25] what is interesting is.

Payman Langroudi: Berkeley in the 70s was the front and centre of psychedelics. [00:24:30]

Rhona Eskandar: Yes, I’m saying so my mom was against it because there were people jumping off buildings, dying, etc. [00:24:35] so my mom thought it created like severe episodes of psychosis. So my question [00:24:40] is, when those severe episodes of psychosis can happen chemically in the [00:24:45] brain, do you think it’s because they’ve had such an underlying like undiagnosed mental health problem [00:24:50] or they’ve got they were on antidepressants and.

Payman Langroudi: I reckon it was a conspiracy to stop people taking [00:24:55] it. But there was.

Rhona Eskandar: Some there are some people that can have psychotic episodes on psychedelics, for sure. I’ve heard it, yeah. [00:25:00]

Payman Langroudi: How many people jumped off a building, man?

Rhona Eskandar: Okay, well, so it is. It is true. It is.

Anne-Sophie : So it is [00:25:05] true. And there’s probably.

Anne-Sophie : So many more people that are better suited to speak to these topics, because this is [00:25:10] for me, you know, when I was 22, when I was working, working in this field and 31 now. Um, so [00:25:15] it’s been some time. But it is true that certain people can have manic [00:25:20] episodes. It is. It really depends. And they probably have some underlying, uh, [00:25:25] psychological issues that they haven’t dealt with or that they are undiagnosed. Um, [00:25:30] but there are those people might not be suitable for the kind of clinical trials that you’re seeing with certain psychedelics [00:25:35] or other substances. Um, right now. Um, but also, you are right [00:25:40] that it, it got a lot of bad press and, um, I [00:25:45] think they, they took individual stories from people who would do crazy things or who would [00:25:50] have accidents, and they would just amplify them to create, create fear and anxiety [00:25:55] because they were really trying to, uh, get a hold on the [00:26:00] psychedelic movement and, and kind of dim it down.

Payman Langroudi: Who is that mass murderer [00:26:05] that, um, it turned out that the CIA were. Who [00:26:10] was the one that they were all hippies going around killing people. Yeah. And [00:26:15] Ted.

Rhona Eskandar: Not Ted Bundy.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Anne-Sophie : No, it was like a cult kind [00:26:20] of cult.

Payman Langroudi: I forget, I forget.

Payman Langroudi: The guy’s name, but, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It turned out the CIA was was was training [00:26:25] him to drug up these hippies to go kill people. And it turned out like there’s [00:26:30] a whole book on it. And the idea was to make the hippie movement seem like a dangerous [00:26:35] movement.

Rhona Eskandar: Listen, listen, if you read the book on how to change your mind, which a lot of people have read, [00:26:40] it’s quite clear. And that’s written by a doctor. Was he a doctor or a psychotherapist anyway? [00:26:45] Someone that’s extremely credible has input from other doctors. They know that it was a political [00:26:50] decision. Nixon wanted all of these people to go and fight in the Vietnam War. Psychedelics [00:26:55] had got into the hands of laypeople there like love and light. We want we want to hug trees. [00:27:00] We’re not going off to kill people. So then Nixon’s like, it’s the most dangerous thing was a political decision. [00:27:05] And we know that. Yeah. I want to move on a little bit. Anne. Sophie. Um, [00:27:10] into kind of like. So we’ve had the beginning of your studies and the beginning of your life. I [00:27:15] want to know as well, though, with how profoundly did the [00:27:20] understandings of what you had studied had an effect on your life? [00:27:25] So what I mean by that is, did you go through any hardships or anything like that that you want [00:27:30] to possibly share that allowed you kind of to use what you knew and implement? [00:27:35]

Anne-Sophie : I think the the story is always that people study psychology because they [00:27:40] try to understand themselves first and foremost or their families. And I think that [00:27:45] probably rings true to me. Um, because I didn’t always [00:27:50] have I wasn’t always the person that I am today, and I didn’t always have a really positive outlook on life. And like [00:27:55] if, if you ask me how I feel day to day now I’m, you know, I wake up in the morning, I’m grateful. [00:28:00] And I look around and I take pictures of the leaves because I think that the colours are so vivid. [00:28:05] Right? And there’s just so much to to be happy about and to be excited [00:28:10] about. And I, I genuinely feel [00:28:15] so grateful for for myself, for being in the headspace that I’m in now, [00:28:20] because I know that it wasn’t always like that. And I definitely struggled with my mental health a lot, especially as a teenager. [00:28:25] Um, I didn’t feel, you know, like I was [00:28:30] really part of my family. I felt like a bit of an outsider. I felt even with my friendship groups, like, I never [00:28:35] really connected to people in the way that I wanted to, or just always [00:28:40] felt like I was a bit alone in the world.

Rhona Eskandar: Were you an introvert?

Anne-Sophie : I think that’s [00:28:45] difficult because I.

Anne-Sophie : I would say that I’m more introverted even now, but I [00:28:50] but I am also very extroverted. Um, I just need time to recoup. [00:28:55] And I need a lot of time alone to to just, like, um, fill up [00:29:00] my social battery, I would say. But as a kid, no, I think I was very, [00:29:05] like, happy and colourful and wanted to love and connect [00:29:10] with people, but then also always felt that there was a barrier, you know. And I, um, [00:29:15] and I, and I ended up feeling very alone. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:29:20] so what was the unlock then?

Anne-Sophie : So the.

Anne-Sophie : Unlock and.

Anne-Sophie : This the.

Anne-Sophie : Crazy thing and the reason [00:29:25] why I talk about this so much now and why it’s like so much of what I do on social media is because even [00:29:30] while I was studying psychology and the neuroscience and then getting, you know, on my [00:29:35] third degree, um, I knew so much about the [00:29:40] brain and I still didn’t realise, and nobody had ever told me that [00:29:45] I can actually change my brain. That was never part of the curriculum. That was never [00:29:50] part of what was discussed. It was like, oh, if you have depression, this is what’s happening in your brain. These are some of [00:29:55] the reasons why people can be depressed. It can be, um, genetic. It can be, um, like [00:30:00] there’s always that nature or nurture conversation. And that’s really the extent of it. And if somebody is depressed, [00:30:05] what can you do? Well, you can have drug interventions, or you can have therapy, or you can have a mixture of both, [00:30:10] which usually has the best outcomes. It has probably [00:30:15] something to do with serotonin. And so you can really understand it on that, um, intellectual level. [00:30:20] And I think that’s what I did a lot of my life is I intellectualised myself and my feelings and my emotions [00:30:25] and my situation, and I felt like that was giving me a bit of power in understanding [00:30:30] myself because I just intellectualised everything.

Anne-Sophie : But it really wasn’t [00:30:35] until very late on in my studies that I, um, [00:30:40] I came across meditation, and the first [00:30:45] time I came across it, I was like, yeah, everybody’s like starting to meditate now because they want to sleep better or they want stress reduction [00:30:50] or whatever. Maybe it can help with emotional regulation. So okay, fine, I’ll [00:30:55] try it. But I wasn’t really convinced. And then I started reading about the science of [00:31:00] meditation and looking at what happens when you put a monk in an MRI machine, somebody who’s meditated for [00:31:05] years. How is their brain structurally different? What are the pathways like? What has changed for this [00:31:10] person? What is actually happening when you’re meditating because you come across meditation? Oftentimes you think [00:31:15] that it’s just about sitting cross-legged and finding nirvana, right? And just like exiting space [00:31:20] and time and just getting to like accessing this higher state. And it’s just it’s not that at all. [00:31:25] It’s just learning how to focus your brain.

Rhona Eskandar: Which is impossible for ADHD.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah. It’s [00:31:30] hard. And yeah, it’s it’s hard. But like you start to I started to to look at these studies [00:31:35] and look at what’s actually different in people’s brains when they meditate. And [00:31:40] all of a sudden it clicked for me. I [00:31:45] can change my brain.

Payman Langroudi: I saw an organic route to to the situation.

Anne-Sophie : Absolutely. Because [00:31:50] before I was like, I just I just have this outlook on life that bad things are always going to keep happening to [00:31:55] me. I’m just going to go through one hardship, then the next. I’m never really going to be satisfied. I’m just [00:32:00] like a passenger in my life. Um, my dad would always describe me. He’s like, [00:32:05] you’re like a cork that’s floating in the ocean. I’m always fine. And. But I’m just going with the [00:32:10] flow and like, no matter what happens to me, I’ll be fine. And I can intellectualise everything. And, [00:32:15] you know.

Rhona Eskandar: When did that change?

Anne-Sophie : It changed when I started meditating.

Rhona Eskandar: How old were you?

Anne-Sophie : Um, [00:32:20] maybe 22 years old. 23.

Rhona Eskandar: It was at the beginning of your.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah. It [00:32:25] was. It was kind of at the end of my studies and at the beginning of, like, my life and taking [00:32:30] this work and actually making it accessible and using what I know to help [00:32:35] people understand themselves and their brains. Not just that, but also change their brains. Because I realised [00:32:40] that after all of these years of studying and in academia, and surrounded by some of [00:32:45] the best and most brilliant minds who understand the brain on a level that you can’t even imagine, nobody [00:32:50] is telling me that I can be a happier person.

Rhona Eskandar: And do you [00:32:55] say, do you think so? Since you had that light bulb moment, would you say extraordinary things have [00:33:00] started to happen in your life?

Anne-Sophie : Extraordinary and even just the minuscule [00:33:05] things are extraordinary for me. It’s extraordinary for me to wake up and think that anything is [00:33:10] possible, and that I’m just one decision away from a better life. Um, and I know that [00:33:15] that’s something that’s easier said than done. If you’re speaking to somebody who’s going through a really tough time, and it might be a [00:33:20] lot of external factors or internally or chemical imbalances or just financial [00:33:25] situations that they can’t get out of or, um, you know, being in abusive [00:33:30] situations where it’s dangerous to leave. It’s it’s easy to say, well, just make a [00:33:35] decision and leave that situation or like, change your life. But but it it really [00:33:40] can start with the smallest shift in mindset of just understanding [00:33:45] that there is a possibility you do just need to do something, and it can [00:33:50] be the smallest thing in the beginning.

Rhona Eskandar: An example because I think for people that listen [00:33:55] or struggle with those small changes, especially because, you know, Payman and I often talk on this podcast, our careers [00:34:00] are very prescriptive, right? Dentistry is very prescriptive. Career. Social media has allowed [00:34:05] people to kind of tap in into that entrepreneurial space, and there are more people putting themselves out [00:34:10] there and changing the trajectory, etc. but I’d say most people feel really stuck, particularly [00:34:15] if they feel like their life’s been mapped out in the way that they’ve imagined, you know? So what would [00:34:20] you say are the easiest things to practice? If you do want to change something [00:34:25] in your life, whether that’s like relationships, career or something that, you know, [00:34:30] you look at that person and you think, how did they get so lucky? But you can actually apply it to your own life. [00:34:35]

Anne-Sophie : Yeah, it’s really difficult because it’ll be so different for everyone. But I think nothing [00:34:40] can change without there first being awareness that something needs [00:34:45] to change. Because a lot of the time, and I think this is also true for myself, is that I just went with whatever [00:34:50] was happening. I knew that I wasn’t really satisfied with my life, but I also didn’t know what [00:34:55] I wanted or how I imagined a better life would look like. So I spend [00:35:00] a lot of time visualising my future and where do I want to be? How do I want [00:35:05] my life to look? And instead of wallowing in in kind of this is where I’m now and I’m [00:35:10] not satisfied with it. And you know, you can you can kind of stay in that mindset [00:35:15] forever. It’s like things are just crappy and whatever. But if [00:35:20] you if you shift that and you look out for like, okay, well, if this isn’t what I imagined my [00:35:25] life should be, what is it? And sometimes it’s sometimes [00:35:30] it’s difficult. And people are like, learn in different ways. If you’re a visual learner, you can make like a mood [00:35:35] board or you can visualise it right.

Payman Langroudi: Like difficult to say, you know, what is the thing? [00:35:40] Because sometimes I don’t know if you’ve ever read a book twice or watched a film twice or something, and [00:35:45] you get totally different things out of it based on where you’re at.

Rhona Eskandar: But I think but I think.

Rhona Eskandar: This is the [00:35:50] thing I think it would be helpful. Like even if it was just like three points, you know, just to understand [00:35:55] because.

Payman Langroudi: I found that you know what you’re talking about. There is agency over. [00:36:00] Yeah, over your own situation.

Rhona Eskandar: Like you said. But the thing.

Rhona Eskandar: Is, I think also importantly is that at [00:36:05] different points of your life, you want different things. And I think that’s the and that’s particularly [00:36:10] important when it comes to relationships, isn’t it? Because that’s where commitment really [00:36:15] shows, I feel, because when you say that you want to be, for example, with a certain type of person and [00:36:20] it feels like there’s real alignment when you meet that person, it’s what you wanted at that time. [00:36:25] But the funny thing is about relationships is that if you do believe in marriage, you’re committed [00:36:30] for the rest of your life. Does that make sense? So you’re that commitment includes like when you’re evolving as [00:36:35] a person, your needs and the things you want will change inevitably. Does that make sense? [00:36:40] And that’s why I always say relationships are like a continuous recommitment to each other all the time, [00:36:45] because you can’t expect them to always be like evolving and changing as [00:36:50] you are, because you’re dealing with two like human beings with different thoughts and values [00:36:55] and wants. Do you know what I mean? That makes sense.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah, but I feel like you. Then you have to. Also, [00:37:00] if you want that longevity, choose somebody who you know is going to love [00:37:05] you at your core and accept you in all of your different stages, and also [00:37:10] allow you to change your mind and shift and, and just I think it’s also very much [00:37:15] about having respect that that person will change, but you have to trust that they will change for the better [00:37:20] of themselves and for the better of the relationship. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I think, you know, the basic [00:37:25] principles have to align and the basic principles base don’t change. [00:37:30] You know, the very basic principles, let’s say I believe in fairness or whatever, something like [00:37:35] that. Yeah. Those have to align. Those don’t tend to change. Then you have to accept other things [00:37:40] will change.

Rhona Eskandar: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: And in a way other things should be in sort of opposition. [00:37:45] You know, if, if, if your, your husband’s better in, in night you should be [00:37:50] better in the morning. You know like if you’re disorganised. You should be organised, you know.

Anne-Sophie : That [00:37:55] describes it perfectly.

Payman Langroudi: But those people, opposites do attract for that reason, right?

Rhona Eskandar: So the question [00:38:00] is then do you think I mean onto from payments point, do you think that people’s values at [00:38:05] the core can change.

Anne-Sophie : So this is interesting because we talk about this a lot in terms of the brain. People [00:38:10] used to think that your brain was, um, just fixed and you had a fixed mindset and [00:38:15] you had a fixed personality. Um, and we’re actually finding out that you obviously can change your brain through things like meditation [00:38:20] or life experiences and, um, psychedelics, [00:38:25] actually, psychedelics are one of the things that are is, is going to have a huge impact on [00:38:30] some of your personality traits, which are typically, um, a little bit [00:38:35] more rigid. Uh, so you have like state and trait, um, and your state [00:38:40] is kind of how you, how you are at a present moment or how you are with something [00:38:45] in a situational factor. Um, and then the trait is something that, uh, [00:38:50] accompanies you longer through life. So this is something that really defines [00:38:55] you. Typically it doesn’t change too much. Um, it could [00:39:00] be like political outlook or something like that. But um, psychedelics [00:39:05] actually do, cause in one setting, like quite a significant [00:39:10] shift in some of your personality traits. Um, and [00:39:15] that’s interesting. And that’s why it’s also really important for therapeutic things. Because if you if you have [00:39:20] a tendency to see things in a negative way, that’s something that could really open your mind. [00:39:25] Um, but yeah, I.

Rhona Eskandar: The [00:39:30] core values.

Anne-Sophie : Core values, I think they, I think it really depends on what you go through. [00:39:35] It could be trauma, like a big trauma could [00:39:40] cause such an immediate shift in who you are and, like, open up different [00:39:45] parts of your brain where you’re like, wow, I see things completely differently now, day to day. It’s not going [00:39:50] to have that much of a of a shift. But like any, any big life experiences [00:39:55] will be able to facilitate that trauma. Psychedelics. Um, and [00:40:00] yeah, just a big loss or a big move, [00:40:05] for example.

Rhona Eskandar: Which brings me on to another question. What’s the biggest misconception that people have about [00:40:10] their own emotional reactions?

Anne-Sophie : I think people think that that’s quite fixed. [00:40:15] I think they feel like they are powerless first of all, over their emotions and their reactions. [00:40:20] And then I also think, um, that they [00:40:25] feel like their emotions are a valid and [00:40:30] true indicator of how things are, when it’s really it’s [00:40:35] just a reflection of where you’re at at that time, or all the things that you’ve learned. [00:40:40] Yeah, or experienced in your life. Um, not all of the thoughts that you have are true. [00:40:45] Not all of the feelings that you have are valid, and it’s really important to be [00:40:50] able to relate to your thoughts and relate to your feelings and evaluate them critically. Because a lot of people [00:40:55] think, well, this person’s done this and I feel upset, I have a right to be upset. You might [00:41:00] be upset because of something that you’re not even aware of that’s happened to you in the past. That person never meant to do [00:41:05] anything to upset you. You have this reaction. You feel justified in your reaction. Now you’re cutting [00:41:10] them off, or you’re making decisions that aren’t actually beneficial for you. You’re not connecting with that person. You’re not connecting with [00:41:15] yourself. But I think too much of the time people just yeah, you just go with, [00:41:20] with with your thoughts and your feelings and I don’t think that’s healthy.

Rhona Eskandar: Do you think that we’ve become a society [00:41:25] that is overindulging in our emotions? So [00:41:30] what I mean by that is, is, you know, people now [00:41:35] want to validate everything they feel and their response and the way the person has [00:41:40] made them feel that, you know, almost indulging or over [00:41:45] Analysing in that emotion is not necessarily a good thing for us.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah, [00:41:50] but I think things are changing. I mean, it really depends like what funnel [00:41:55] you’re down in, like especially if you look on TikTok and on social media, because you have people who are like [00:42:00] talking about each one of those things. You have people who are like, uh, practice [00:42:05] non-judgment detachment from everything, and then you have the people who are like, every [00:42:10] feeling is an indication of something and go with this and trust that. And you have a right to feel x, [00:42:15] y, z. But I think if you look at it from like academically and how we’ve evolved in [00:42:20] terms of how we understand the brain and how we treat the brain and the human condition, is that you come from a place of [00:42:25] everything has meaning. So this is like Freudian, Jungian kind of theory [00:42:30] where it’s like even your dreams have meaning. Even those the most obscure thoughts are trying [00:42:35] to tell you something. And then we go into, um, uh, cognitive [00:42:40] behavioural therapy and it’s like, okay, you have these thoughts, critically analyse them. Um, [00:42:45] like, what is this thought trying to tell me? Where does this stem from? Is [00:42:50] this something that I’ve experienced in my life? And now I see things this way. Is there any [00:42:55] truth to it? And so you’re starting to analyse it a little bit more critically. And then I think now we’re moving [00:43:00] into more of a space that’s occupied by mindfulness [00:43:05] meditation. And now you’re looking at your thoughts without [00:43:10] judging them and you’re looking at a thought and it’s, it’s the the messaging is not [00:43:15] every thought that I have is true. Not every thought that I have is important. So you’re moving from a place of everything [00:43:20] is important. And I have to understand and intellectualise everything to is it [00:43:25] true? Is it not true? What is it trying to tell me to like now? Doesn’t matter if it’s true. It doesn’t [00:43:30] matter if it’s a good thought or a bad thought.

Rhona Eskandar: I think I saw a post the other day. Um, it was [00:43:35] really, really great. And it was like I broke up with the spiritual community. Have you seen that post? [00:43:40]

Anne-Sophie : No, but I was.

Rhona Eskandar: Like, I broke up with the spiritual community and here’s why. [00:43:45] And in the post, she’s like, at first it was so enticing. She was like the cacao ceremonies, the [00:43:50] sitting around the fire talking about your feelings. And she goes, but then I realised that all these people were talking [00:43:55] about creativity, but no one was producing. And then I realised that, you know, people [00:44:00] were not being honest and like life is, if you look at even like Mother Nature, about animals, about [00:44:05] evolution, you know, it’s about putting yourself through discomfort to move forward. And I thought [00:44:10] it was really interesting because I was thinking, you know, we have become that to like a bit too, like Kumbaya in [00:44:15] a way where we’re like, we can’t offend each other and we can’t put ourselves through any trauma [00:44:20] because it’s going to affect us really badly.

Anne-Sophie : Classifying ourselves and our emotions and other people. [00:44:25]

Rhona Eskandar: Yeah, exactly. And then and then us all sitting around validating that together, holding hands. [00:44:30] Trump. Trump.

Payman Langroudi: Trump’s in charge now. Those things. Things have changed.

Rhona Eskandar: You’re extreme now. Like you don’t [00:44:35] need to.

Payman Langroudi: Have you ever been in a float tank?

Anne-Sophie : Yeah.

Rhona Eskandar: I really want to go.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah.

Rhona Eskandar: Have [00:44:40] you done it?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’ve done lots.

Rhona Eskandar: Where is one?

Payman Langroudi: There was in Wandsworth, but now it’s closed down.

Anne-Sophie : There’s [00:44:45] one in Vauxhall.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Vauxhall works. Yeah, yeah. Have you been one in West.

Payman Langroudi: London Bridge.

Anne-Sophie : As well? There must be one [00:44:50] in West Wandsworth.

Payman Langroudi: There was just. It just closed down.

Rhona Eskandar: That’s not west, babes.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. West enough. [00:44:55] But what I found, it was real. Unlock for me insomuch as, um. You know what you’re [00:45:00] saying about, uh, meditation. Yeah. I could never understand. I could never even. I got [00:45:05] it, but I just never really felt. But in a float tank, you can. Yeah. And the [00:45:10] thing for me, that sort of switched my brain to it. Was that [00:45:15] okay? You’re trying to meditate? Some thought comes in your head. Yeah. And the really important thing [00:45:20] is to not feel the feeling of that thought. The feeling? Yeah, that’s [00:45:25] really important because, you know, we naturally just let’s say the thought is some patients [00:45:30] suing me. Yeah. Okay. That’s patients suing me. Don’t feel it. See [00:45:35] it but don’t feel it. Yeah. And I don’t know why. An hour in the tank, I. Suddenly it [00:45:40] was like a ha moment for me.

Rhona Eskandar: It’s like a deep meditation. I’ll tell you where I get it. [00:45:45] And I think you probably agree that most people is actually with massages. I go into [00:45:50] that state in a massage where, like, I’m not asleep, but like you said, like I have [00:45:55] thoughts, but they’re not necessarily thoughts that I feel like I need to react with. It’s [00:46:00] almost like I’m observing the thoughts as they kind of move through my body. I don’t know why, but a massage [00:46:05] does that for me.

Payman Langroudi: It gives. Something happened in my brain because after a float [00:46:10] one hour float for about 7 or 8 hours after that, I’m a totally different person. You [00:46:15] know, something’s going on. Yeah.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah.

Anne-Sophie : I mean, it could be like accessing this deep state [00:46:20] of relaxation where you’re not. Because I think when you are, when you’re having a conversation and you’re [00:46:25] hyper aware of everything, like it’s so easy to just get caught up in these thoughts because your brain is just on. [00:46:30] Yeah. Um, but that is I mean, I think that is such a powerful thing that people don’t realise is like, you can’t have a [00:46:35] thought or a feeling come up and you just need to label it. It’s like, oh, that’s a thought that I’m having. [00:46:40] That’s a feeling. And then you kind of just let it go and you just wait for whatever comes up next. And it’s [00:46:45] a really good exercise in understanding the emotional, um.

Anne-Sophie : Like [00:46:50] landscape of.

Anne-Sophie : Your. Yeah, of your of your brain and your body. It’s like, what are the kind of thoughts [00:46:55] that I’m having where like, what does this tell me about where I’m at? Am I focussed, am I [00:47:00] generally happy? Like, do I need to like, figure something out? Do I need to.

Anne-Sophie : Get back into my routine?

Payman Langroudi: The [00:47:05] difference between you and your thoughts, the separation of you and your thoughts. Whereas [00:47:10] day to day you’re just thinking every thought is me.

Rhona Eskandar: Yeah, but that’s Eckhart Tolle. That’s like the whole premise [00:47:15] of his book, basically.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but in the tank it becomes so obvious.

Rhona Eskandar: You sold the [00:47:20] tank, you sold the.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so obvious, man. You don’t even know whether you’re okay.

Rhona Eskandar: I’m gonna book it, and I’m gonna. I’m gonna keep you. I’m [00:47:25] gonna. Is it dark?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Completely beside body temperature. Completely pitch.

Rhona Eskandar: Black. Yeah. It’s [00:47:30] it’s a sensory deprivation tank. Yeah. It’s like a.

Rhona Eskandar: It’s a warm.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s body temperature. [00:47:35] Body temperature with a cover on it.

Rhona Eskandar: Okay.

Anne-Sophie : So the idea is.

Anne-Sophie : That is that you’re depriving [00:47:40] yourself of all of the senses, and it’s supposed to be almost like a womb, like, uh, state. [00:47:45] So the it’s salt water. So you’re floating and the water is your body temperature, so you [00:47:50] don’t notice that it’s warm or cold. It’s just body temperature. And, um, and there’s no light, [00:47:55] there’s no stimulus. And what, what what happens then in the brain is that when you remove all of those, [00:48:00] uh, that sensory information, you just you have so much more access.

Payman Langroudi: I feel like.

Payman Langroudi: For the first [00:48:05] ten minutes, you start hearing sounds and things because your brain just wants it, wants something, you know, [00:48:10] and for about five, ten minutes, it’s you’re all over the place, and then suddenly it’s like. [00:48:15] It’s really interesting.

Rhona Eskandar: Interesting. I want to ask you, though, as well, I mean, with the brain, do [00:48:20] you think that the brain can tell the difference between trauma, intuition [00:48:25] and anxiety when it comes to your response?

Anne-Sophie : It’s I [00:48:30] think this is such a good question, because a lot of the symptoms of these things are the same. [00:48:35] So it’ll be like elevated heart rate, pupils dilating, dry mouth, [00:48:40] maybe tension somewhere in your shoulders. And it’s it’s it’s going to [00:48:45] be hard to distinguish what is intuition. What is a trauma response and what is [00:48:50] what is anything. But I think meditation really helps with that. You can start [00:48:55] to, once you start to scan through your body and notice how you feel in a given situation, or how you feel about a [00:49:00] certain thought or a feeling, you become so much more able to pick up on, um, how [00:49:05] does anxiety show up for me? How does fear show up for me, and how is it different to anxiety? Because [00:49:10] on the surface level, it might have a lot of the same symptoms, but the more [00:49:15] you actually practice understanding how it shows up for you as an individual, the more if [00:49:20] something happens, you can now identify it quicker. You’re like, oh, that’s not fear, that’s [00:49:25] anxiety. Um, or that’s not, um, you know, I there’s [00:49:30] just so much more nuance. Um, but I also think that it’s it’s interesting because [00:49:35] sometimes these things will show up in similar ways, and it is just a question of how you reason [00:49:40] with yourself what it is.

Anne-Sophie : So I a lot of the time I still have, uh, fear and anxiety [00:49:45] when I go up on stage to, to talk to a big audience because I’ve had the experience [00:49:50] of just my brain completely shutting down and forgetting anything that I was going to say and, um, [00:49:55] or my mouth getting dry or like coughing or having like an itchy throat. That still happens to me, but [00:50:00] it’s part of my job. So when I notice those sensations of like [00:50:05] getting butterflies in my stomach or getting tingly before I get up on stage, instead of instead [00:50:10] of being like, oh my God, I’m so scared or I’m anxious, I just tell myself it’s excitement. [00:50:15] I’m excited to do this and so I can trick myself into, um, [00:50:20] yeah. Just seeing it as like, this is I’m excited because I’m doing the stuff that [00:50:25] I love. It might feel like fear, it might feel like anxiety, but no, I’m in charge and I’m telling myself what [00:50:30] this is, and I go up on stage and it kind of, you know.

Rhona Eskandar: Another question. [00:50:35] I’ll pose this to both of you. Actually, I always wonder those people [00:50:40] then, that on the outside, let’s take career because it’s an easy one to look at. Like if [00:50:45] you look at somebody and you go, oh my God, their career is amazing, they’ve made it. Let’s say we [00:50:50] measure that success financially. Whether you’re somebody that assumes that financial success [00:50:55] is the ultimate goal and you’re like, they’ve built this incredible multi-million [00:51:00] billion dollar company. What they’ve done is incredible, right? Do you think [00:51:05] that a lot of that is down to the brain then of [00:51:10] that person? So what I mean by that is, is that they have put themselves in that position [00:51:15] to achieve those goals. Or do you think there’s a mix of different things like circumstances. So for example, [00:51:20] could be an element of luck. Could it be an element or do you feel like they have completely created [00:51:25] their own destiny? I guess it’s about manifestation, which we’ll talk about as well. But what do you what do you think of that? [00:51:30]

Anne-Sophie : I’m curious to see what you.

Anne-Sophie : What do you think?

Payman Langroudi: I mean, firstly, the accident of birth. Right? To be born [00:51:35] into a supportive family with a good brain that can, you know, the accident [00:51:40] of birth isn’t there’s. I think there’s a lot less agency, actually, than [00:51:45] than people think there is. But also.

Rhona Eskandar: In what way? Sorry. What do you mean?

Payman Langroudi: You know, you don’t have [00:51:50] as much free will as you think you have. Um, I think I think, yeah. But also, [00:51:55] um, you know, when those results that you’re talking about, which is like asymmetric results [00:52:00] tend to come from asymmetric behaviour and asymmetric behaviour, [00:52:05] sometimes it’s obsession. Yeah. An obsession comes with a bunch of downsides. [00:52:10] Yeah. So I had a guy sitting in front of me at 40 practices a divorce and suicidal [00:52:15] thoughts. You know, it’s happened. Yeah. So. So although, you know, comparing [00:52:20] yourself has become a thing and yeah, I get I get annoyed when some 21 year old in Australia [00:52:25] comes out with a toothpaste and.

Payman Langroudi: It.

Payman Langroudi: Blows, blows mine. That does a hundred times sales [00:52:30] of my toothpaste. I get it, I do get it.

Rhona Eskandar: But do you think that that’s because of their [00:52:35] great? Do you think it’s because their brain chemistry? I mean, I’m going to put a combination.

Payman Langroudi: Of combination of everything.

Rhona Eskandar: But [00:52:40] because you think it’s combination.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Luck. Agency everything.

Rhona Eskandar: What about you?

Anne-Sophie : I think there’s [00:52:45] too many variables to say that it is them making that [00:52:50] decision. I think it depends on your social circumstances. Like. Yeah, the family [00:52:55] that you were born into. If you’re happy, if you’re healthy, if you hadn’t had to struggle with, like health [00:53:00] conditions or your, you know, your your parents are healthy or you’ve gone to [00:53:05] a good school or you’ve grown up in a, in a good area. There’s so many things that.

Payman Langroudi: Can within. [00:53:10]

Payman Langroudi: A family.

Payman Langroudi: Within a family, you’re totally different to your sister. Even though you were in the same family. The same. This the.

Rhona Eskandar: Same. [00:53:15] Yeah. And then and.

Anne-Sophie : Then like mindset.

Anne-Sophie : And then, but then.

Anne-Sophie : Also luck and circumstance.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah. I know so many people. [00:53:20]

Anne-Sophie : Who have like made it who, you know, and, and actually a lot of the people that I know who are very successful [00:53:25] financially. Didn’t go to university, of course. Of course.

Rhona Eskandar: And okay, let’s take Elon Musk as an [00:53:30] example. Okay. Whether you hate him or like him or whatever, the views are on Elon Musk, right? [00:53:35] He’s created something successful or legendary or whatever. Do you see what I mean? Yeah. But do you think [00:53:40] that’s because of Elon Musk’s grit? Do you think it’s because of like the way his brain works, where he was [00:53:45] like, I am going to be a billionaire? Do you think people that are billionaires are like, I am going to be a billionaire? Do you know what [00:53:50] I mean?

Anne-Sophie : So therefore I think, I don’t think you can be a billionaire by accident. Yeah. Because you, you have to.

Payman Langroudi: Have [00:53:55] necessarily chasing the billions. Right. You could be chasing.

Rhona Eskandar: Yeah. Do you think chasing the billions or just [00:54:00] the millions that.

Anne-Sophie : Elon Musk is like very obvious that he is obsessive over certain [00:54:05] things?

Payman Langroudi: Have you listened to any of his?

Anne-Sophie : No, actually.

Payman Langroudi: So if you listen to one of his four hour interviews, right, [00:54:10] the Joe Rogan did, probably.

Anne-Sophie : Lex Fridman or someone like that as.

Payman Langroudi: Well. Lex Fridman yeah. Then [00:54:15] you realise he’s not happy at all.

Rhona Eskandar: Elon. Yeah, at.

Anne-Sophie : All. He’s very like tortured.

Anne-Sophie : He’s [00:54:20] got like tunnel vision on this certain thing and like his goals I guess Ah, yeah. He won’t feel [00:54:25] happy or satisfied unless he’s done more and more and more and more and more.

Payman Langroudi: He’s got a thousand ideas coming to him all the [00:54:30] time, and he’s constantly working.

Rhona Eskandar: So do you think he’s one of these people? This is such an interesting topic. [00:54:35] I love it. Like we’re jumping from like stage to from topic to topic, but it’s so interesting as we have [00:54:40] Anne Sophie here. Do you think then as well, there is a superpower in neurodiversity, [00:54:45] because neurodiversity used to be something that was so frowned upon, [00:54:50] I think particularly for my generation, and even more so for Payman as well. It was like you medicate [00:54:55] autism, you medicate ADHD. And now, because it’s so widely spoken [00:55:00] about and possibly overdiagnosed, let’s be honest, people are starting to embrace, you [00:55:05] know, having a neurodiverse brain and being like, okay, fine, I don’t fit the mould. I definitely think that ADHD has become [00:55:10] one of my superpowers when it comes to my career. And my friends and family are like, we always [00:55:15] sort of knew it, and now we can see it. And the ability, your ability to do so much is [00:55:20] because of like kind of my multitasking with ADHD. So do you think that neurodiversity has [00:55:25] become a little bit of a superpower?

Anne-Sophie : Yeah, I think it’s also it’s very significant with the times [00:55:30] that we live in, the career opportunities that are available to people. Whereas like typically in [00:55:35] the past you had very structured careers and ways to like, work. Yeah, you had to fit a mould [00:55:40] and you had to be very good at X, y, z task and following due process. And that works very [00:55:45] well for neurotypical people and not so much for neurodivergence. But [00:55:50] I feel like now with more people have more agency and ownership over their lives [00:55:55] and their careers, and there’s so many careers that you could never even imagine were possible, like YouTubers. [00:56:00] It’s like, that is.

Payman Langroudi: Game.

Anne-Sophie : Gamers. You and you have kids [00:56:05] who are opening up packages on YouTube and they’re making millions. And, you know, the biggest [00:56:10] CEO guy from fortune 500 company who’s worked his way up, um, [00:56:15] could never have imagined amassing wealth like that in that kind of way. And I [00:56:20] think, um, I think it’s really great because it is it is a [00:56:25] way for people who are neurodivergent to also have access to opportunities and success [00:56:30] without following this traditional path.

Rhona Eskandar: What does the research [00:56:35] show about neurodiversity? Because some people would claim that they’re like made up things, which obviously isn’t [00:56:40] correct, particularly now the conversation around autism as well. And I do meet people that [00:56:45] are like, oh, it’s not a real thing. It’s because of X, Y, and Z. What does what does the research [00:56:50] show about these neurodiversities. You know, are they very much real? Are brain [00:56:55] chemistry is different in the way that we imagine? You know, what’s what does it say?

Anne-Sophie : Yeah, I mean, it’s very much [00:57:00] real. I’m not the person to, like, speak intricately about this, [00:57:05] but it’s it’s very obvious that there are differences in the brain and, and [00:57:10] those there are some nuances that we don’t we haven’t even discovered yet. Uh, I think typically we [00:57:15] would say this person is autistic and this person Is so and so, and I think that [00:57:20] everybody’s brain is different. And you can’t just put people into like one of [00:57:25] two categories, but it is very much real. And it is real in terms of not just the brain chemistry, [00:57:30] but the structure and function of the brain, how it develops. Um, so yeah, I [00:57:35] think anybody who says that it’s not real, it’s made up, is is very misguided.

Payman Langroudi: But what [00:57:40] about.

Payman Langroudi: Um, supplementation for it’s one.

Anne-Sophie : Of my favourite topics.

Payman Langroudi: So our [00:57:45] friend Dan Murray. Yeah. Does that help.

Rhona Eskandar: Him. Heights.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah.

Rhona Eskandar: Yes. [00:57:50] Yeah. It’s it’s so his all started because of mental health and then he worked out a natural supplementation. [00:57:55] He talks about psychedelics as well in a couple of podcasts. I think it was ayahuasca that was groundbreaking for [00:58:00] him to get over depression. Um but he worked when they developed heights. He worked with Doctor [00:58:05] Tara Swartz as well. So they developed the supplement. Um, what do you think about.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah, I think [00:58:10] it really depends. I think generally people lean on supplements too much. [00:58:15] Is is my like, people want to have a quick fix for something when what’s going [00:58:20] to actually make a difference to your brain? Health and mental health is getting down all the basics, [00:58:25] and I think I don’t have too much respect for people who just go straight to supplements [00:58:30] for sleep or mental health without actually prioritising their sleep schedule, their sleep routine, [00:58:35] looking at what they’re eating, making sure that they’re exercising, that they have social connection and support, [00:58:40] and that there’s no support from the government in terms of like financial support or access to [00:58:45] opportunities, because those are all the things that are going to determine how happy [00:58:50] and healthy you are and you feel. So yeah, I would say it’s [00:58:55] it’s very easy to have a bad night of sleep and then want to go pick up [00:59:00] a melatonin supplement or, um, magnesium or whatever you think is going to do the trick. But [00:59:05] if you’re sleeping badly because you don’t have a good sleep schedule, you’re not a consistent [00:59:10] sleeper. You don’t, you know, uh, expose yourself to, uh, The daylight [00:59:15] first thing in the morning. There are so many things that you can do.

Payman Langroudi: Treating the symptom, not the cause.

Anne-Sophie : Exactly, [00:59:20] exactly. And it’s the same thing with, like, why we got so upset with, um, [00:59:25] treating mental health disorders with medication and big pharma. [00:59:30] And I think it’s just it’s it’s like the other side, the flip side of the coin, it’s like, okay, [00:59:35] well, we don’t want to treat medication. Medication? Uh, we don’t want to treat depression with medication. [00:59:40] Bless you. But and now people are saying, well, what? Bless [00:59:45] you.

Rhona Eskandar: Excuse me. Yeah.

Rhona Eskandar: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Verona just posted about this, [00:59:50] didn’t she? About ozempic and how we want. We want to sort of listen.

Rhona Eskandar: It was. [00:59:55] Did you see my post yesterday?

Anne-Sophie : No.

Rhona Eskandar: So it was really interesting. I was kind of scrolling [01:00:00] and I came across this doctor who basically was stating that Robbie Williams had openly [01:00:05] come out and said that he was taking Mounjaro and that it was affecting his [01:00:10] eyesight. And basically he said that he was. He feels he’s actually going blind and he thinks [01:00:15] that it’s related to the injections. And then I looked into it. And apparently one of the side effects [01:00:20] of the injection is that, like, you can have blurred vision. However, the key thing is, is that he said he’s [01:00:25] going to still continue taking the weight loss injections because he wants to maintain like the way that he looks or whatever.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, [01:00:30] maybe that’s clickbait.

Rhona Eskandar: And, um, the woman goes on to state, [01:00:35] um, that it’s become really sad because we have become this [01:00:40] nation where we are constantly injecting ourselves. And what [01:00:45] she means is really medicating ourselves to numb feelings of low [01:00:50] self-worth, inadequacy, loneliness, loneliness, um, you know, feeling [01:00:55] like we can’t fit in, etc.. So those injections, whether it’s like Botox or fat [01:01:00] loss injections, you know, they’re a constant way to like, numb the feelings of not [01:01:05] feeling enough, essentially. And she said like, no judgement if you take that stuff and like, listen, like [01:01:10] I’m all for injectables. I work in the industry. You know, it was an interesting conversation that she was [01:01:15] having, but I think what she was saying was true. We’ve become a nation of self soothers. We have [01:01:20] become a nation of self soothers and that even includes social media, right? The content that you’re posting to [01:01:25] get the dopamine to self-soothe. Yeah. And that’s the wider conversations that we should be having. [01:01:30] Really?

Anne-Sophie : Yeah. Because I guess it’s like you want to fit in so that you’re not exposed to the feelings of discomfort [01:01:35] in society. But I understand that there are huge societal pressures to [01:01:40] perform a certain, you know, view of masculinity or femininity or, [01:01:45] you know, being young or whatever. And, and those pressures are real and they exist and they do affect [01:01:50] people’s mental health, and they do affect your job opportunities and access to, [01:01:55] like, amass wealth and career, because there are studies that show, like a somebody who [01:02:00] is more beautiful might get a job opportunity over somebody else, um, or somebody [01:02:05] a man who appears more masculine is seen as more competent. Like, those are those are all real. Um, [01:02:10] unconscious biases that we have and that exist in the world. So I understand why people are motivated [01:02:15] to, uh, look and act and perform in a certain way. But at the same time, yeah, [01:02:20] I think there’s there’s I mean, if you have [01:02:25] friends who really accept you and love you for who you are, the difference that you feel in those circles [01:02:30] and the acceptance that you feel of like being able to just be yourself and not be [01:02:35] this like perfect representation or who everybody else wants you to be like, those are so [01:02:40] valuable and meaningful. And I think, I think we’re kind of moving [01:02:45] away from that a little bit. Everybody is just judgemental and it’s like, you have to look this way. You have to. [01:02:50]

Rhona Eskandar: Yeah. And as you said, it’s the thing that stuck out for me is like these unconscious biases. And I think, like, where [01:02:55] did we, where, where did this all go wrong in society, where you have to be so pressured [01:03:00] to look and be a certain way, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Your generation did it really [01:03:05] was like possibilities came.

Rhona Eskandar: From my.

Payman Langroudi: Mom. Possibilities came in. Your [01:03:10] mom was more like the rich and famous time. Yeah. At that time, anyone who was like top [01:03:15] end of society would go and do their teeth and inject their face, have a facelift or something. [01:03:20] Now it’s become a.

Rhona Eskandar: Everyone can do.

Payman Langroudi: It. Everyone’s got access to it. I’m interested in [01:03:25] you know, as brain chemistry gets into like, the culture does it. On [01:03:30] the one hand, I bet it’s great for business for you, but on the other hand, it must piss you off. Because [01:03:35] I get, like, my 16 year old telling me, yeah, you’re addicted to dopamine, you know, [01:03:40] like, well, I had one. One of my best friends, he brought up, like, um, oxytocin. [01:03:45] I was like, where the hell did he hear about? Like, he’s not. He’s not in the field. Yeah.

Anne-Sophie : You see [01:03:50] a lot of these, like, terms co-opted by, like, pop psychology.

Payman Langroudi: Psychology? Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:03:55]

Anne-Sophie : It’s like, what I see all the time is like, oh, you’re, um, like, you’re [01:04:00] depleting your dopamine or that doesn’t like, that’s not how dopamine works. You can’t deplete dopamine. [01:04:05] It’s just that your tolerance is like it’s it’s at a different marker. So you’re seeking [01:04:10] it out more.

Rhona Eskandar: But that’s why everything is becoming more extreme, as I told you. Because once you see one thing, your [01:04:15] dopamine is used to it. You know what I mean? Then when it comes to content and stuff, that’s what I’m saying.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah, yeah, [01:04:20] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: When you know what’s actually going on. Yeah. Yeah.

Anne-Sophie : But, but but [01:04:25] the thing is that, like, I and I can see this so clearly, it’s one person does a podcast where [01:04:30] they talk about XYZ and they’re like misinterpreting the science a little bit because maybe they’re not a scientist, [01:04:35] even if they are a scientist. Like it might not be their field, and they don’t have that wealth of [01:04:40] knowledge that comes from being involved in the field and knowing all of the primary papers associated with it. And like the [01:04:45] general consensus. And so they, like, pick up this new paper that has this new shiny little finding and [01:04:50] they’re like, oh, you need to supplement with this and this, or you need to do this sleep [01:04:55] protocol or this sauna protocol and this ice bath protocol. And like all these new things that are like really trendy now. And [01:05:00] um, and then all of a sudden somebody else on Instagram, on TikTok will [01:05:05] like, they will amplify it because they’re like, well, I got this from a reputable source because this [01:05:10] person is a scientist or like they do have publications. And so I’m now going to [01:05:15] take what they’ve said and say that that’s true. And then it just gets amplified and amplified and amplified. And now [01:05:20] that is um, like the consensus it’s mainstream and and it’s funny [01:05:25] because.

Rhona Eskandar: People don’t believe it when someone, when someone tries to take it apart. Yeah. They don’t they [01:05:30] don’t believe it.

Anne-Sophie : And this is also like now I’m kind of in the same situation with my social media, where it’s like before when I was talking [01:05:35] about like social justice and I was like fighting against it. I was like, can’t you see this isn’t fair? And again, I’m doing [01:05:40] the same thing with the science. I’m like, no, like the, the, the blue light from your phone [01:05:45] doesn’t affect your circadian rhythm to the point where it affects your sleep. Everybody, like everybody thinks [01:05:50] that this is right, because Matt Walker, who is like one of the biggest sleep scientists, talks about it on his podcast. He’s like, [01:05:55] okay, um, blue light from your phone. Like you shouldn’t be looking at your phone because it’s going to interrupt your circadian rhythm, and it’s [01:06:00] going to mean that you can’t fall asleep. It’s not actually true. And so I’m here telling people, [01:06:05] no, you can’t be on your phone before bedtime. And then people are like, no, you absolutely can’t because it’s so [01:06:10] ingrained.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so.

Anne-Sophie : Mainstream. And I’m finding myself, like fighting this thing again. I’m like, [01:06:15] no, like, I know the truth and like, this isn’t right. And they’re like, you’re just being a hater. You just like to go against the grain. [01:06:20] I’m like, no, I’m trying to like, educate people because I think, you know, there are so many of these gurus [01:06:25] online and everybody gets their information from the next influencer or like lifestyle person [01:06:30] or whatever. And even scientists who, you know, are trying to do the right thing. But like, sometimes [01:06:35] people get it wrong, but it’s hard to discern what’s truth and what’s not. But I [01:06:40] like one thing that really gets to me is that they’re like, this needs to be your morning routine. This is your bedtime routine. [01:06:45] This is the protocol that you need to adhere to in order to become like, happy and more creative and grateful. And [01:06:50] at the end of the day, it really just depends on who you are as a person and knowing yourself.

Rhona Eskandar: I think, I think, listen, [01:06:55] I think that that sort of stuff because I remember as well, like everyone was always talking about like this five, 6 a.m. club, [01:07:00] right? It was even a thing on that. Like dentist gym group, right? And I was like, okay, cool. Like, I’ll [01:07:05] try this and that. 5 a.m., 6 a.m. thing was so unhelpful for me, actually. [01:07:10] And I found that I was more tired and more hungry and less [01:07:15] productive. And I was really trying to force it because actually, I’m someone that does much better when there’s natural [01:07:20] sunlight. I am an eight hour person. If I get up at my time, which is usually [01:07:25] 730, I can be in our gym class for 830. That’s my time zone. That works really well [01:07:30] for me. Any earlier, I’m useless. No matter where I am in the world.

Payman Langroudi: Even if you sleep earlier.

Rhona Eskandar: Even [01:07:35] if I sleep earlier. It’s funny.

Anne-Sophie : There’s new research, actually, that shows that a lot [01:07:40] of the time, people who are living not in accordance with their circadian rhythms and not in accordance [01:07:45] with their own 24 hour clock. So maybe they’re waking up really early for a job, but actually their natural body [01:07:50] clock rhythm is a little bit later on in the day that that a lot of these people might [01:07:55] have symptoms of depression that isn’t being able to be treated by [01:08:00] these SSRIs, because it doesn’t have anything to do with the serotonin. It’s not to do with the brain chemistry, [01:08:05] it’s just that their body is in a permanent state of jet lag that is affecting their mental [01:08:10] health to the point where they are. They now have depression, and this is just because they’re not sleeping in accordance [01:08:15] with their own sleep cycle.

Rhona Eskandar: That’s really, really interesting. And that’s why I’m saying to you, like, I like [01:08:20] to live by my own rules, like it drives my clinic crazy because I have a hard start at 10 [01:08:25] a.m., especially as a.

Anne-Sophie : Neurodivergent like that is going to be very important.

Anne-Sophie : You can’t like it’s just.

Payman Langroudi: Something [01:08:30] about owning your own business.

Rhona Eskandar: You can set, you know, they get really angry because they’re like, oh, you know, no, [01:08:35] no, no. That it’s mainly like my manager who she’s like, you should be here for like the Morning Huddle. You should [01:08:40] do this, you should do that. And she’s somebody that likes to be at the clinic at like 7:45 a.m.. [01:08:45] That’s what works for you. And it’s just not going to work for me. And the thing is, is that also because I fall [01:08:50] asleep around half ten, 11, I get really anxious about waking up [01:08:55] that bit earlier, which makes me not sleep. Do you see what I mean? So I. It just doesn’t work for [01:09:00] me. I want to move a little bit actually forward to since we’re on the topic of, [01:09:05] you know, pop psychology and all these terms have been kind of like thrown around on social [01:09:10] media. Manifestation is one of them. Right? And manifestation is something that actually makes me cringe [01:09:15] a little bit when I say it, because I look back at things and I guess you could brand [01:09:20] it as manifesting, because one thing I did was is that when I got rejected from [01:09:25] several dental practices after I had graduated, I must have not been pretty enough. [01:09:30] Now that you’re saying unconscious bias. But anyway, there is no way that you wouldn’t have been pretty enough. [01:09:35] But I got I basically had written down in a book, and at the time I didn’t [01:09:40] have tools to things that you’re talking about. But I’d written down in the book the way that I imagined my life, and I remember being [01:09:45] like, I wish to live in this area. I wish to, you know, marry this [01:09:50] kind of person. And I want to own a practice in Chelsea X, Y, and Z. Anyways, [01:09:55] I it all kind of came true. Seven years later. So in a way you could [01:10:00] say that was manifestation, right? You know the concept of it, right? But it’s become this hugely [01:10:05] cringe thing now because I literally now I scroll through my Instagram and TikTok and it’s like [01:10:10] how I.

Rhona Eskandar: Manifested.

Rhona Eskandar: £2 million a day. Yeah. You know, like on my [01:10:15] TikTok. And I’m like, okay, so like, what is your what is your perception of manifestation? How does [01:10:20] it work from a brain point of view?

Anne-Sophie : Yeah. So I talk about this a lot, and I think it is not true that you can speak [01:10:25] something into existence, which is sometimes what people, when they talk about manifesting, they say, [01:10:30] just wish for it and it will happen. The reason why I think manifestation can sometimes [01:10:35] work is because it is a is a, it’s a way of it’s a goal setting technique. [01:10:40] And if you manifest something and either you’ve written it down, you’ve taken that time to like that brain and [01:10:45] body connection, you’re writing it down, or you’re creating a vision board, or you’re sitting there visualising [01:10:50] your dream life. Um, you spend a lot of time thinking about your goals. So [01:10:55] now, especially if you do this every day, let’s say you’re the method of [01:11:00] manifesting for you is like saying a few affirmations in the mirror. Like I will have [01:11:05] $1 million or pounds. Um, and you say that to yourself every [01:11:10] day. Now it becomes part of your daily programming and you are you have set [01:11:15] the intention, set the goal every single day. So subconsciously, you’re more likely to act in [01:11:20] accordance with something that is going to help you achieve that goal. It is why people who, [01:11:25] um, set New Year’s resolutions. You sit down January 1st, you [01:11:30] make a list of like 30 things that you want to achieve. You never look at the list again halfway throughout the year, you realise you [01:11:35] don’t even know what you’ve written down on this list. You don’t know like you’re not. You’re no closer to achieving any of these goals [01:11:40] because you haven’t. It’s not a goal setting technique. You’ve just said something and then forgotten about it. [01:11:45] But if you practice manifestation as, um, something that [01:11:50] you’re really actually dedicating, dedicating your life to that means that you’re probably going [01:11:55] to do it repetitively. It’s going to be front of mind. And yeah, you’re more likely [01:12:00] to just like be aware that this is a goal that you have and that you want to achieve. And [01:12:05] so subconsciously you’re doing things day in, day out that are going to help you get there.

Payman Langroudi: I really [01:12:10] like effective to that extent. Right.

Payman Langroudi: Do you manifest Payman.

Payman Langroudi: I have in my life by mistake.

Rhona Eskandar: By [01:12:15] mistake. See?

Payman Langroudi: Not on purpose.

Anne-Sophie : But I think. I think there is also really good ways to do it. It’s like [01:12:20] people talk about vision boards and that, again, is also sometimes kind of like la di da and like a little girly thing to do. [01:12:25] But if it helps you to get like a clear, crystallised image of what it is that you’re [01:12:30] working towards, then you’re much more able to see it when it happens for you. Um, like for [01:12:35] example, I hear these things, or you see these TikToks of the girl who’s like, wow, this like, this was [01:12:40] the picture of the apartment that I had on my vision board, and this is the apartment that I finally bought. And it’s like 1 to [01:12:45] 1. But you probably are looking for apartments.

Rhona Eskandar: That look like that.

Anne-Sophie : And yeah, that look like [01:12:50] that because it’s like there or like that’s what or you’ve really defined that. This is your, [01:12:55] uh, aesthetic and that’s what you want. And so you’re, you’re going to be motivated to like, [01:13:00] find something that.

Rhona Eskandar: So how would people block a manifestation in your opinion?

Payman Langroudi: Look.

Anne-Sophie : I [01:13:05] think there are a few ways, like where you get in your own way. Yeah. [01:13:10] Um, I would say, like if you want to manifest, it has to be a regular thing to do. You can’t just manifest [01:13:15] at the beginning of the year or like on a full moon or something and then like, and then forget [01:13:20] about it or leave it up to the gods or the universe. You do actually have to [01:13:25] do something, and the best way that you can help yourself achieve that [01:13:30] is instead of just visualising the goal or the future or the whatever it is that you want to manifest. Also [01:13:35] try to visualise the steps that it’s going to take you to get there so that you have a clear understanding of like, [01:13:40] what do I actually need to do in order to to get £1 million? Like, what can I set [01:13:45] up? Like, how much is that per month that I need to like the goal that I need to set that to and make it like [01:13:50] little baby steps.

Rhona Eskandar: Do you know what I think? I think there’s a huge difference between [01:13:55] what you want and what you believe. And what I mean by that is that people don’t have awareness of it. And I think [01:14:00] that’s particularly true when it comes to relationships, for example. So someone might say, I want a [01:14:05] man that’s kind, loving that will give me the world and treat me really well. But in reality, [01:14:10] they believe that they’re not good enough and they keep attracting the wrong person in their life. And they’re like, but I’m [01:14:15] saying this is what I want. And the universe keeps giving me this. And it’s like, but do you believe you’re [01:14:20] worthy? Do you believe that you deserve this? Do you believe that you’re going to get it? So I think.

Payman Langroudi: Girls, generally [01:14:25] what they say and what they actually do is.

Anne-Sophie : Different.

Payman Langroudi: Very different, I think.

Rhona Eskandar: But this is what I’m saying. [01:14:30] There’s a difference between what you want versus what you believe. And I think that’s when things start [01:14:35] to match up. It’s like when you have those things coming together, that’s when the reality [01:14:40] starts to unfold, you know? And then you’re like, okay, this makes sense. And it’s funny because [01:14:45] I always feel like I’m so behind in life because I’m like, I’m 38. There’s been lots [01:14:50] of like, midlife crises, which we’ll talk about later, but I’m like, I’m 38 and I’m only here [01:14:55] in my life. But it’s like things are slowly unravelling where I’m like, you know what? I actually think [01:15:00] at those points when I wanted something, I didn’t actually believe I deserved it. And as I’m [01:15:05] getting older, like the beauty I guess about getting older is the recognition that some [01:15:10] stages in your life, you’re more ready, and then you start to believe that you’re more deserving when you are ready. [01:15:15] Does that make sense?

Anne-Sophie : I can relate to that a lot because I have similar thoughts and feelings and I’m [01:15:20] like, oh, I wish that I would have taken this step earlier. I wish that I would have started Instagram earlier [01:15:25] or started posting about my work or my life. But then I also think about it. I’m like, I probably wouldn’t have had [01:15:30] the awareness that I do now. The critical thinking that I do now, I probably would have been [01:15:35] one of those people who would have heard something on a podcast, and then I posted about it like it’s the truth, because [01:15:40] that was the level of knowledge that I had. And I yeah, I think things happen for you [01:15:45] at a right time.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes lots of things. One of the biggest causes of unhappiness, [01:15:50] right, is that people set themselves random.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Times [01:15:55] and places and people that they’re going to end up with. It’s it’s very random.

Rhona Eskandar: But listen, [01:16:00] some people but some people listen. And this is the thing, this is when I start getting into the compare and despair. Like I will look [01:16:05] and there are even people that I know that, like, have the societal boxes ticked by the time [01:16:10] they’re 30. Do you see what I mean? Like they’ve got multi-million pound company, they’ve married like the the [01:16:15] perfect person, they’ve had their baby and they’re all 39. Society said I had to do this by 30. I’ve done it. [01:16:20] But again.

Anne-Sophie : But again, you don’t know what the truth is of that relationship.

Payman Langroudi: Worry about that.

Rhona Eskandar: Yeah. [01:16:25] No, but what I’m saying.

Payman Langroudi: I’m just saying when there’s a mismatch between what you said you would achieve and then what you did [01:16:30] achieve, then you get sad. But if I said I was going to IPO my company [01:16:35] by the time I’m 33 and now I haven’t, everything I’ve achieved would make me sad. [01:16:40]

Anne-Sophie : Yeah. But again, and it’s that practice of like non-judgment and detachment. Yeah. It’s like you don’t. [01:16:45] You’re setting yourself an arbitrary timeline, and now you’re upset because you haven’t met that. But it doesn’t even [01:16:50] mean anything.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s the crazy thing.

Rhona Eskandar: So I want to move a little bit into [01:16:55] actually relationships. We touch a lot about this. Um, and I know this is something that you feel [01:17:00] passionate about. I don’t want to go into the pop psychology of, like, different attachment styles [01:17:05] and so forth, but what I would like to know.

Payman Langroudi: What do you clear up some of those discussions, those [01:17:10] arguments being you used to have about relationships.

Rhona Eskandar: What was it? I don’t even remember now.

Payman Langroudi: Something about [01:17:15] like in love.

Rhona Eskandar: Oh, this is like really boring. We [01:17:20] don’t repeat this. We don’t repeat the same.

Payman Langroudi: I want to hear the brain.

Rhona Eskandar: Say, listen.

Anne-Sophie : So I’m [01:17:25] figuring that it’s so funny because, like, I like, every time that I have a little crush on someone, [01:17:30] I’m like, googling. I’m like, what’s happening in my brain?

Anne-Sophie : Like even you. Yeah, yeah, [01:17:35] yeah, because it’s fascinating.

Anne-Sophie : Because you you just notice, like the way that you operate is so different. [01:17:40]

Rhona Eskandar: Okay.

Rhona Eskandar: So I said to Payman. Right. He was saying like that. The whole notion [01:17:45] of falling in love is like, you can’t sleep, you can’t eat, you can’t think about anything else. [01:17:50] Like you’re falling. Yeah. But he’s like he’s like. But I said to him that with the knowledge that I have [01:17:55] now and all of the work that I’ve done on myself and all of the therapy, that’s not necessarily [01:18:00] a healthy way to be, and that’s usually a sign that it’s not going to turn out for the best. [01:18:05] And that is my say that. And that’s like, and you know.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so sad.

Rhona Eskandar: And and that [01:18:10] has been my experience. That has been my experience. Yeah. And that when you have that sense of like safety [01:18:15] and stability, like it’s kind of understanding that that’s what long [01:18:20] lasting love is and that is what true love is.

Payman Langroudi: Like I used to have someone I used to work for me, [01:18:25] um, she went out with this bad guy or whatever, and, I don’t know, he ended up in [01:18:30] jail.

Anne-Sophie : No joking?

Payman Langroudi: No, he ended up drug addict. And then he killed [01:18:35] himself. And then she. She wanted only like dorks. [01:18:40] Yeah. She just. She did. She wanted the opposite.

Anne-Sophie : Okay. Yeah. You have a tendency to overcorrect, right? In [01:18:45] relationships.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe that’s what you’re saying now. Yeah. It’s overcorrection.

Rhona Eskandar: For you. The thing is, is that [01:18:50] again, it goes back to the dopamine thing. Highs and lows will definitely. I believe [01:18:55] you can correct me if I’m wrong. Initiate different chemical responses in your in your [01:19:00] brain chemistry which you can mistaken for being in love. Yeah. And definitely if you’re an ADHD [01:19:05] person, you seek pleasure. You seek dopamine. So I love those highs [01:19:10] and lows subconsciously doesn’t mean it’s good for me. And I gave you the example before. If I came [01:19:15] to Anne Sophie and you said, guys, I tried heroin last night. It was amazing. It was amazing. [01:19:20] But then my crash was so low, you wouldn’t be like, babes, just take heroin again. Of [01:19:25] course not. It doesn’t mean it’s good for you just because you’re having those chemical emotional reactions.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah, [01:19:30] but. But I think there’s again, there’s so much nuance to it. So it’s basically like the it’s it’s intermittent reward [01:19:35] which keeps your brain fixated and like And it’s the same thing that happens like when [01:19:40] you’re scrolling with the dopamine, it’s intermittent reward. You don’t know if the next video is going to be a good video or a bad video. So you’re kind of like waiting. [01:19:45] And then you get that like up and down and up and down. And there are studies where it shows that like when you’re in love or [01:19:50] falling in love, the brain, it’s the same reward pathways as if you’re on [01:19:55] withdrawing from drugs. So you want that hit again. And um, [01:20:00] and I do agree that in general, people say that love should [01:20:05] be consistent and safe and secure and maybe it’s boring and maybe, like this crazy [01:20:10] love infatuation isn’t, um, the right way to go or isn’t [01:20:15] healthy. But I think it then you’re also taking away the individual responsibility [01:20:20] of being able to self-regulate. I think here again, you have the problem that some people just, like let themselves [01:20:25] go with emotions and will fantasise and romanticise [01:20:30] absolutely anything and project. Yeah. And I think mindfulness is a really good skill to have here [01:20:35] because you can stay focussed and fixated on the present moment versus in that projection of like, [01:20:40] what is this relationship going to be? When am I going to hear from them? And you’re not living in the future or in the past? [01:20:45]

Rhona Eskandar: But I think one thing that you are forgetting there is it includes another person, and the way that the other person behaves [01:20:50] and responds will also trigger that response, right? So if you are dating somebody and you have [01:20:55] to.

Payman Langroudi: Remember how it.

Payman Langroudi: Started.

Payman Langroudi: So-and-so did something. Yeah. And then I said, yeah, I said [01:21:00] she was in love. So, so.

Rhona Eskandar: But.

Payman Langroudi: Then also you said I would never do that. And then I jokingly [01:21:05] said, obviously you’ve never been in love. It was a joke that was had.

Rhona Eskandar: But the thing is, this person, a friend of [01:21:10] mine, had completely lost herself and uprooted her life because for this person [01:21:15] that she didn’t know very well because she was so in love. However, fast forward, [01:21:20] fast forward.

Payman Langroudi: Falling in love doesn’t.

Rhona Eskandar: Fast forward a couple of years. Confirmed [01:21:25] that that feeling is not as it was at the beginning. So that elevation and she’s [01:21:30] now looking back and being like, oh, did I make the right choice? Now I’ve changed my [01:21:35] entire life for this person. Was it the right decision? Which is what I was trying to say to you, that actually, [01:21:40] that feeling doesn’t last forever. And. But she still has a mass. She’s still [01:21:45] in love with her partner, has that companionship, but the irrational behaviour isn’t as it was. [01:21:50] So you can’t have consistent irrationality in a relationship. You just can’t. But also, [01:21:55] you have to be careful with who you pick. Because what I was saying is about the other person is that if the other person [01:22:00] is inconsistent, it’s not a reflection of you self-regulating, because you’re also [01:22:05] not allowing the other person to take ownership of their behaviour. Because if they’re an inconsistent person, yes, [01:22:10] you might get the dopamine hit of them being hot and cold, but it doesn’t mean it’s the right, you know, dynamic [01:22:15] to be in either, because that person may be unreliable.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah.

Rhona Eskandar: Do you know what I mean?

Anne-Sophie : No, I [01:22:20] completely agree. And I think, yeah, it’s hard because you’re navigating somebody else, somebody else’s psyche [01:22:25] and somebody else’s like personal circumstances. You never know what’s happening. I saw this meme the other day. [01:22:30] It was, um, it’s like when I don’t reply to you for a few hours, it’s because I’m very busy and [01:22:35] I have a lot of things to do in a social life. But when you don’t reply to me, it’s because you absolutely hate me. And like [01:22:40] you’ve forgotten about me. And I think it’s just it’s just the way that you like, think about. Um, [01:22:45] so I know one of the questions, one of the things that you wanted to talk about also is like, how do you know if a relationship [01:22:50] is good? And, um, this is more on the psychology side, but there are two a [01:22:55] couple who’s a psychologist, couple who looks a lot of relationships to Gottman’s. You’ve probably heard of them.

Rhona Eskandar: Yeah, of [01:23:00] course I listened to. Yeah, but they talk a lot about the safety security aspect of things.

Anne-Sophie : They also talk about, [01:23:05] um, the core things to look out for, and they can tell within like a few minutes whether a couple is going to [01:23:10] last or not. And there are two things that I remember from when we were studying this, like way back when. And the [01:23:15] first is, um, whether that person, uh, if a negative thing happens, like you’re [01:23:20] late to your dinner reservation, um, whether when they’re sitting there, [01:23:25] whether they say that that negative thing is a, an attribute of you and your personality [01:23:30] or whether they externalise it and say it’s probably a situational [01:23:35] thing. So if you’re late to our dinner date, I’m sitting here and either I’m thinking, [01:23:40] you’re so late, you don’t care about me. You never value my time. You’re so selfish. Or, uh, [01:23:45] a couple that’s more likely to succeed is the person’s going to sit there and think [01:23:50] like, oh, they’re late. I hope that they’re okay. Like, there was probably traffic. Um, and it’s it’s about [01:23:55] saying that this.

Payman Langroudi: Positive and always have.

Anne-Sophie : Never and always more.

Payman Langroudi: Relationships. [01:24:00]

Payman Langroudi: Than.

Payman Langroudi: That should be banned words and relationships.

Anne-Sophie : But but [01:24:05] exactly. That’s the thing. Like if somebody is inconsistent.

Anne-Sophie : Like of course it’s it’s also on you to [01:24:10] determine are they inconsistent because like, they’re a mean evil person or are there actually circumstances [01:24:15] in life like sometimes you can’t always control everything, but then also it is on you to figure out, uh, [01:24:20] if.

Rhona Eskandar: It works for you.

Anne-Sophie : If.

Anne-Sophie : It works for you, and if you trust this person and if they’re [01:24:25] a good person at heart. And if you believe that. Yeah. Um, the other thing that [01:24:30] they say determines a good relationship is, um, were [01:24:35] they on a podcast recently, by the way?

Rhona Eskandar: I’ve listened to them. I can’t remember how I found them. I feel [01:24:40] like I found them, like randomly on Spotify, do you know what I mean? And I listened to all their older stuff. I haven’t listened to their newer stuff, [01:24:45] to be honest. Um, I will delve into it.

Anne-Sophie : The other thing that they say that determines a [01:24:50] good relationship is whether the person that you’re with responds to your bids for attention, and so a bid [01:24:55] for attention is, anytime you, like, notice something in the environment. And I think this has been going viral recently on social [01:25:00] media. It’s called bird theory where you see these videos of like, have.

Rhona Eskandar: You seen [01:25:05] this?

Anne-Sophie : Girls are filming themselves and they’re like, hey babe, like I saw a bird today. And if [01:25:10] the partner is like engages with that and it’s like, oh, what kind of bird? And like carries [01:25:15] the conversation further or is interested in like something very mundane.

Rhona Eskandar: My husband.

Anne-Sophie : That you have to say, then [01:25:20] they are responding to your bid for attention because you’re saying something and it can be as arbitrary as, [01:25:25] hey, I saw a bird. Um, that is a bid for attention. That is you’re [01:25:30] you’re asking somebody to respond to you and be close and connect and, um, yeah, [01:25:35] it’s whether they indulge in that or whether they don’t. And you have a lot of videos of girls [01:25:40] who are like, um, hey, babe, I saw a bird today, and the guy’s just, like, either ignoring them or, [01:25:45] like, cool or, like, doesn’t really say much. Yeah, yeah. And you’re not responding to that [01:25:50] bid, because what she was wanting to do is just to, like, open up the floor for a moment of connection [01:25:55] and see that there’s interest from that person.

Rhona Eskandar: Right? I mean, listen, I still [01:26:00] think, like, I still think the values thing is such a key part to all of this, you know? Has anyone been [01:26:05] watching MAFs recently?

Anne-Sophie : No. Wait. Is Australian one on again?

Rhona Eskandar: No, it’s the English one.

Anne-Sophie : The [01:26:10] Australian one.

Rhona Eskandar: So you know about MAFs. There’s a dentist on there.

Anne-Sophie : Married at first sight.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:26:15] yeah, she’s coming on my pod.

Rhona Eskandar: I should be there to do that interview. [01:26:20] Yeah. Okay. So basically, um, when I was watching [01:26:25] it, it was really interesting because there was this couple, and it’s funny that the experts got it wrong because the whole [01:26:30] premise is the experts match you with your husband or wife based on the conversations they’ve had. Obviously, [01:26:35] we’ve got to take it to pinch of salt and be like, have they done like bits for television? So they [01:26:40] have this girl, this woman called Julia Ruth, who’s become like a massive clickbait person. [01:26:45] And they matched her up with this guy.

Payman Langroudi: Black girl.

Rhona Eskandar: Yeah. And basically.

Rhona Eskandar: Did [01:26:50] you see.

Rhona Eskandar: I need to watch this. And basically, I feel quite sorry for him because [01:26:55] she’s your kind of, like, typical, like, feisty, sexy woman. And he’s somebody that’s [01:27:00] really looking for, like, love and connection. And she’s really mean to him the whole way through. And one [01:27:05] day the experts give them this values exercise. They say, like, here are a bunch of values. [01:27:10] We want you each to list them from 1 to 10. So it had things like money, children, [01:27:15] sex, looks, etc., right. And when they compared their values [01:27:20] list it was polar opposites. The her first two values that were most important to her looks [01:27:25] and attraction. That came last down for him and his was like children and I think success or [01:27:30] something like that. And it was like you could see that. Like she was really bummed out because she was like, well, obviously [01:27:35] our values are so different. And I was like, exactly like, how is it ever going to [01:27:40] work when two people’s values are so different in life for what they want? You know? And also, it was [01:27:45] quite surprising that the experts hadn’t picked up on that, because surely that would have been the first thing. I mean, if you go with. [01:27:50]

Anne-Sophie : Experts, like now, maths has become such a thing. Like they definitely do it just for cause [01:27:55] like and especially the Australian ones, you have so many guys who end up being like these manipulators and [01:28:00] you think like it’s. So every single time I start this show, it’s you have this beautiful [01:28:05] woman who’s like, very capable, has a good job, like provides a life for [01:28:10] herself. She’s a single mom. She takes care of her like she social life. Everything like tick tick tick [01:28:15] tick. And then they place her with a guy who still lives with his mom, who’s, like, [01:28:20] just out of, like, doesn’t have a job at the moment, just like kind of roaming around and it’s [01:28:25] like, why would you do this?

Rhona Eskandar: Yeah, no, it is interesting. But that’s why I think like values [01:28:30] is a really big one. And now that I’ve chosen to start a family, which I’ve said to you like that’s like [01:28:35] shared values, thing is like even more important because you’ve got a third person in the mix now to think about. [01:28:40] So if you have somebody where like they want to party all the time and their whole thing is like socialising, whereas somebody [01:28:45] that’s like, I want to build a home.

Payman Langroudi: What are you struggling with?

Anne-Sophie : In [01:28:50] terms of relationships? Do you know what I’ve.

Anne-Sophie : Actually.

Anne-Sophie : But like I’ve, I my last [01:28:55] relationship was very aligned in terms of values. Um, and that gave me so much safety [01:29:00] and security and like really restored my faith in like a true partnership and men. But [01:29:05] like also now I see that I’m drawn to people who, like, I might not have been drawn [01:29:10] to before, or I would think like politically, they’re not quite where I’m at or they’re not as like [01:29:15] they don’t see things the way that I do. But, um, but there are other things that [01:29:20] maybe are more important to me at this stage of my life in terms of a partnership, [01:29:25] and as long as I trust that they are capable and that they will keep the family safe and together [01:29:30] and power through. Like that’s actually, um, more important to me than [01:29:35] somebody who’s like 1 to 1 aligned on on everything. [01:29:40]

Rhona Eskandar: So do you think that. Well, my question was going to be for you. What’s the belief you once held strongly [01:29:45] but have since outgrown? Do you think that kind of answers it?

Anne-Sophie : Yeah. Yeah, I would say so. [01:29:50]

Payman Langroudi: As you get older, that definitely happens. You know, you surprise yourself with the kind [01:29:55] of people.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Interested in, like, ideologies you’re interested in?

Anne-Sophie : Yeah, exactly. And [01:30:00] I would say also in my last relationship, like, because there was so much alignment and everything that I started [01:30:05] to learn about or found interesting and I would tell him about, he would be interested in as well and like, which is great [01:30:10] because like, we’re always moving sort of in the same direction together and agreeing on [01:30:15] everything. There’s very little friction, but at the same time, like some friction is required in order [01:30:20] for growth.

Rhona Eskandar: But that’s what I was saying about the discomfort.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah yeah. Yeah. So so like sometimes like now the people that I [01:30:25] talk to and maybe yeah they have different views on, on things. But it’s, it’s a challenge for me. [01:30:30] And actually it challenges my thinking and I’m not in my echo chamber. And maybe I still [01:30:35] end up disagreeing with them. But I’ve learned something. Like I’ve come out a new person. [01:30:40] Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Person’s very interested in.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Your your angle on things. [01:30:45] Yeah. Whereas if you agree on everything.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah. Everything’s like yeah, yeah I agree. And then there’s it’s like okay cool. [01:30:50] Next topic.

Rhona Eskandar: What’s your most painful life lesson?

Anne-Sophie : My [01:30:55] most painful life lesson. Oh that’s interesting. [01:31:00] Can you guys also share something? Let me think for a moment.

Rhona Eskandar: Well, I [01:31:05] think my most painful life lessons, probably what I’ve just been through.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah.

Rhona Eskandar: Right. [01:31:10] As in, it was horrendous what I went through, but [01:31:15] I don’t really see. It’s difficult, [01:31:20] right? Because I’m such a hindsight kind of person. But I also do have this strong belief that [01:31:25] things I always feel like things will always work out. And it sounds crazy. At the back of my mind, I always [01:31:30] feel like things are going to work out.

Payman Langroudi: Believe in God or something?

Rhona Eskandar: No. I just always feel like things are going to work out. [01:31:35] Like life will only throw you what you can handle.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:31:40] mean, maybe it’s a coping thing, but why?

Rhona Eskandar: Maybe it is a coping thing. And you [01:31:45] know what? Sometimes because sometimes I also like blackout stuff, you know? And that’s why as well, like, with everything [01:31:50] I went through in the last few months, um, like, I decided I wanted to talk about it because I [01:31:55] wanted to help people that are going through similar things, and I wanted to kind of be really authentic and honest. But [01:32:00] at the same time, I made a very conscious decision that I don’t want it to define me, and I want to just move past [01:32:05] it once I’ve spoken about it. Does that make sense? Like, I don’t want it to define me and I don’t want to become my [01:32:10] trauma. Does that make sense? You know, and then in a way, like I’ve done this before, then I just kind of like, block it [01:32:15] out. Do you see what I mean? Because it’s like, what’s the point in just dwelling on it and overanalyzing it? [01:32:20] And what could have been happened and could have been done better?

Payman Langroudi: Um, so. Yeah. And it’s over. Right.

Rhona Eskandar: Exactly. [01:32:25] There are some people that can still, like, live in it for years and years. You know what I mean? I don’t want to, you know, [01:32:30] um, what’s the most, your most painful life experience?

Payman Langroudi: Full [01:32:35] life experience. Come on. I’ve been through. I’ve been through nightmares at work, [01:32:40] you know.

Rhona Eskandar: Nightmares with enlighten.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. The first few years, total [01:32:45] nightmares. But I was being sued by my previous boss. Losing hundreds [01:32:50] of thousands here, driving up and down the country, losing money. Horrible, [01:32:55] horrible times.

Rhona Eskandar: That was the time.

Payman Langroudi: 1 or 2 days of like, oh, geez, what’s it all for? You know? Um, [01:33:00] but no. Nothing.

Rhona Eskandar: What about you, then?

Anne-Sophie : I would say [01:33:05] the most painful life lesson. And I think something that I definitely still have certain defence mechanisms [01:33:10] around is that the people who. You expect [01:33:15] to always be there for you, or that should care for you and nurture you might [01:33:20] not always be.

Rhona Eskandar: Let you down.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: As in. [01:33:25]

Payman Langroudi: As in like.

Payman Langroudi: Relationships.

Payman Langroudi: Or friends or.

Anne-Sophie : I would say like.

Anne-Sophie : Like nuclear [01:33:30] family. I think you grow up in this world thinking nobody is going to love me more than my parents, [01:33:35] and nobody’s going to want the best for me as much as my parents do. And nobody’s [01:33:40] going to work harder than my parents and my family to support me. [01:33:45] And yeah, in a lot of situations, that’s not that’s not necessarily the case. [01:33:50] But on the flip side of that, there’s so much power and there are so many other people in [01:33:55] the world, and you can really find and build strong relationships with people [01:34:00] who don’t owe you anything on that, like family or like bloodline level, but [01:34:05] who will be there for you and show up for you even without having [01:34:10] to or not really owing you anything and and I think those friendships and those relationships [01:34:15] are so rewarding.

Rhona Eskandar: So and then the other [01:34:20] flip of the coin, what’s your most beautiful life experience?

Anne-Sophie : I guess the most beautiful [01:34:25] life lesson that I have had, like the biggest thing [01:34:30] that’s effectuated the biggest shift in my life is that you’re always only one decision away from a different life. And [01:34:35] I remember thinking this like, whenever I’ve ended really meaningful and significant relationships, [01:34:40] um, with people that I’ve loved, but I’ve known like it’s not right for me on whatever level, [01:34:45] or I’m not happy with where I am and how this is going. Um, you [01:34:50] just you often you just need to make one decision and it can completely change the trajectory [01:34:55] of your life in, in a positive way. And I think to some people that feels risky, but [01:35:00] I think it’s even more risky to stay the same. And yeah, [01:35:05] live, live a life where you’re not happy and not fulfilled because any change that you make [01:35:10] that’s going to take you, propel you into a different sphere or universe? Yes. [01:35:15] You might not know exactly what that looks like, but you just trust that it’s going to be better than whatever you have now. [01:35:20] And so, like sometimes I tell myself, if it’s not this, it’s going to be something better. So I’m going [01:35:25] to change something about this. But I know that whatever I change, it’s going to be better than this.

Rhona Eskandar: So [01:35:30] I love that. And I feel that was actually answers my last question, which was what [01:35:35] message would you like anyone that’s listening to this podcast to carry forward with them? And I guess it’s just [01:35:40] that, you know, whatever decision or choice you make could propel you in a different direction, [01:35:45] but it’s better to take that risk and chance.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah.

Anne-Sophie : Because and because the [01:35:50] unknown is so uncomfortable for so many people. But if [01:35:55] what’s known to you now is not happy or satisfying to you, then the unknown [01:36:00] can only be better than that if you’re choosing a different path or life for yourself. [01:36:05]

Rhona Eskandar: Yeah, I love that. Thank you so much And so for me, honestly, [01:36:10] as always, you sparkle so much glitter into every conversation. For those people [01:36:15] that do want to look you up. Um, so we’ve given her Instagram name a lot of times.

Anne-Sophie : Would she [01:36:20] buy Gucci?

Anne-Sophie : Easy to remember. And do you have a website as well?

Anne-Sophie : Um, yeah. So I’m on Substack. [01:36:25] I write actually, one of the the articles that I just published was something that we were just talking about. Now, [01:36:30] um, well, there’s different things I talk about, like how to boost your memory, um, or what’s [01:36:35] happening in the brain when you have a crush.

Rhona Eskandar: Yeah.

Anne-Sophie : Something I researched recently and then decided [01:36:40] to write about it.

Rhona Eskandar: Love it.

Rhona Eskandar: I’m gonna subscribe.

Anne-Sophie : Um, and my my [01:36:45] website is, uh, we are brainwave co, and this is just where I do a lot of my corporate workshops. [01:36:50] So if there’s anybody who has, like a company or like a, they want a talk or a workshop, [01:36:55] um, to help people understand their brains better or be more productive, be more creative [01:37:00] or work better as a team or improve their mental resilience. Those are things that I do as well.

Rhona Eskandar: Perfect. Thank you so [01:37:05] much, Anne. Sophie. Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast comes to you from Enlighten Enlightens, an advanced teeth whitening system [00:00:05] that guarantees results on every single patient. We’ve treated hundreds of thousands of patients [00:00:10] now and have a really clear understanding of what it takes to get every patient to that delighted [00:00:15] state that we want to get to. If you want to understand teeth whitening in much further detail, join [00:00:20] us for online training only takes an hour completely free. Even if you never use [00:00:25] enlighten as a whitening system, you’ll learn loads and loads about whitening, how to talk about it, [00:00:30] how to involve your teams. Join us enlighten online training comm.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:40] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [00:00:45] leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Deepa Patel onto the podcast. Deeper. We [00:01:00] met on Mini smile makeover. Yes. First time, wasn’t it? Yes. Was it? There [00:01:05] was a show.

Deepa Patel: No, no. We met in June, uh, last year. Msm [00:01:10] in Manchester. And that’s.

Payman Langroudi: When we saw each other again at one of.

Deepa Patel: The again in Birmingham [00:01:15] recently. Like, I was really impressed.

Payman Langroudi: I remember I was very impressed with you at Mini Smile Makeover, insomuch [00:01:20] as most of the people at Mini Smile, maker of these young dentists who try to get jobs [00:01:25] and um, you know, you slightly different to that profile. It was clear you’ve been qualified [00:01:30] a long time, and yet you were so into it. Yes. Um, and, you know, [00:01:35] making videos of it and everything.

Deepa Patel: I made it real.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I [00:01:40] just remember you stood out to me as someone who’s really, really wants to learn. You know, you can once you’ve done a lot of courses, [00:01:45] you start to notice the different types of delegates who are there. Yeah. Someone really wants to learn. And did you put [00:01:50] any of it into practice?

Deepa Patel: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Did you?

Deepa Patel: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So what what what have [00:01:55] you done? Do you do much more composite work now than before? So you do it better.

Deepa Patel: So [00:02:00] I love composites in general anyway. So I think, uh, MSM was one of the best, [00:02:05] uh, cause for me to start doing the things which I couldn’t do before, [00:02:10] and it just gave me so much confidence, um, just simply by the things, [00:02:15] the way the fish was telling about the things I felt like, oh, I can do [00:02:20] this. And as you said on the course, I was just putting all my efforts to understand [00:02:25] what I will need after the course. Made some notes. And on the next day [00:02:30] I started using all the tips, tricks, what the fish gave. And I could see I [00:02:35] got better and better and better.

Payman Langroudi: That’s nice to hear.

Deepa Patel: Yeah. And I think, um, [00:02:40] I really used all the tips what he gave me even now, [00:02:45] like, I can see and all my instruments, I got it from him as well. Made a huge difference. And [00:02:50] the best thing, I loved it the way you did the whitening, uh, introduction [00:02:55] in the course. And, you know, a know, a lot of people, they think tired and they think, oh, what is [00:03:00] all about whitening? We know about it, but I think I’ve got a lot of tips from you how to introduce [00:03:05] whitening to every conversation. Yeah, every single patient. So since last [00:03:10] year.

Payman Langroudi: So now you’re doing lots of whitening.

Deepa Patel: Definitely. So my my patients are whitening and [00:03:15] composer.

Payman Langroudi: Nice.

Deepa Patel: And um, the tips you gave like you mentioned [00:03:20] and now we’re doing smile evolution forms in the practice. And believe me, every day five patients [00:03:25] about they’re not happy with their teeth. They want straight teeth and they want whiter teeth. Yeah. [00:03:30] And I done whitening on 60 years old, 70 years old, 22 years old. So [00:03:35] it’s just a mixture. And you think you’re mistaken, that you know you’re not gonna do the whitening [00:03:40] on after 50. They might not want it, but they are the ones who.

Payman Langroudi: Want even more. They want it even more. And [00:03:45] the thing is, yeah, the the patients more interested in the whitening conversation [00:03:50] than almost every other conversation that you have with them. You know, that’s that’s that’s [00:03:55] been proved right. Unless he’s in pain or he’s got a missing front tooth every other [00:04:00] conversation and we’re having thousands of conversations with our patients, every other conversation you have with your patient is less [00:04:05] important to him than the one about the colour. And so it does come down to your mindset. If you’re comfortable [00:04:10] talking about it, the patient really wants to know what’s possible and what I’ve realised. [00:04:15] Yet it needs to be within the oral hygiene instruction area from the patient perspective. [00:04:20] They feel like the colour is to do with brushing and oral hygiene. So that’s [00:04:25] the right place for the conversation to happen. And we all do some bit of oral hygiene instruction in every [00:04:30] exam. So it’s just a perfect place for it.

Deepa Patel: I think so and I learned this, you know, when I was [00:04:35] doing some of the hygiene appointments beforehand. And I learned this, that once they are [00:04:40] dentally fit, that’s the best time for you to introduce that, you know, now you’re dentally fit. [00:04:45] Do you want to go for whitening and including myself? Now I’m reaching like next to 40 [00:04:50] and I feel like, you know what? I’m putting more attention on myself, how I look. [00:04:55] You know how I talk when I go out my dressing style, I feel like I’m [00:05:00] more interested. And when I have a conversation with the patients about this, I [00:05:05] realise they are in the same boat and they love it because I get the personal touch that, you know, [00:05:10] it’s not just you. I had whitening done recently, so definitely make a huge difference. [00:05:15]

Payman Langroudi: Now the reason I really wanted you on. You’re working at Bupa? Yes. Two days. [00:05:20] Did you say a week? But the rest of the time, you’re locum ING. Yes. And [00:05:25] it’s an interesting story because you qualified in India the whole nightmare [00:05:30] practising as a as a hygienist running around. [00:05:35] And you told me you’ve practised you’ve been in over 100 practices. Yes, that’s true. And that’s so interesting [00:05:40] for me because most of us dentists or clinicians, maybe [00:05:45] we’ve been in 6 or 8 or 10 or 12 at the most practices. And I, [00:05:50] you know, I stopped practising a long time ago. So for me it was even fewer. Maybe I was an overall, I [00:05:55] was in five practices. Yes. And even in those five practices, I saw so many different ways of [00:06:00] working, not only in terms of work flow, but, crucially, [00:06:05] business management. And and really one thing I noticed, I’ve obviously been to a lot of practices. [00:06:10] One thing I’ve noticed is I walk into a practice almost immediately. You can tell [00:06:15] if this is a happy business or if this is stressed business. Now you walk [00:06:20] into a different practice every week on your locum thing. Yeah. What reflections have you got [00:06:25] about different types of situations that you fall into?

Deepa Patel: I [00:06:30] think as you say to me, like, you know, do you really enjoy locum? I do the reason, as you [00:06:35] said, uh, I love seeing different people, different staff, different [00:06:40] patients. And for me it’s a learning opportunity. I have a lot of friends. They said, oh, [00:06:45] they don’t want to do locum because they’re really comfortable. They have a comfort zone in their own job. And [00:06:50] I have seen some of the like, you know, start from the same practice, retire from, you know, in the same practice. [00:06:55] For me, it was all about going in a different practices from, you know, high Street [00:07:00] in London and going all around the London outside London. And [00:07:05] what I have seen is, as you said, happy team. You know, when you walk in you [00:07:10] feel like, wow, I would love to come again here. Yeah. And some of the places like, no, [00:07:15] this is my last day. And the only reason is it just the way [00:07:20] the whole management, the whole business run. So I have seen, you know, manager themselves. [00:07:25] They are very much stressed about the running, the practice, lack [00:07:30] of staff, you know, empty diaries and those things. And you feel like, do [00:07:35] I really want to come again here. You know. Or maybe I can just help them to see [00:07:40] that how they can get a bit more, you know, if I can give them advice which we [00:07:45] use in other practices and they’re running successfully. So for me, is, [00:07:50] uh, the key is a key is a [00:07:55] key.

Payman Langroudi: And because a lot of us, a lot of us would say, I want to know. My equipment’s, my equipment, my nurses, [00:08:00] my nurse, how we do things. And if every week I had to have a different nurse, a different [00:08:05] practice, a different drill, a different chair, I just go crazy. But you’re saying [00:08:10] you actually that actually feeds you a little bit like you give me a couple of examples of, of practices. [00:08:15]

Deepa Patel: It’s very funny because when I walk in they’re like, you know, we have this problem, we have that problem. [00:08:20] They tell me in the morning, yeah, that your diary is full of extraction today, surgical [00:08:25] extraction, this and that. And I’m like, okay. And they’re like, do you need anything? And I’m [00:08:30] like, as long as I have a dental chair, patient and nurse.

Payman Langroudi: I’m.

Deepa Patel: Done, I’m done. [00:08:35] I think it also helps because, you know, when I worked in India, we used to [00:08:40] train in different places. And you have not you don’t have everything every time. [00:08:45] And for me, that’s the that’s my challenge.

Payman Langroudi: And if you’re.

Deepa Patel: Saying [00:08:50] it’s part of the job. So as long as she gave me one bar. Doesn’t matter which bar, I’ll do the [00:08:55] crown prep for that. So, uh, it’s for me. It’s more like, you know, doing the things [00:09:00] right for the patients doing ethically and with the minimal stuff is fine. [00:09:05] I don’t need that. The whole room with a lot of equipment, they always get me so many extraction [00:09:10] forceps and, you know, all the elevators. I was like, just one. Just like which one? I said, just this. [00:09:15]

Payman Langroudi: Is in Indian. The training. You end up taking a lot of teeth out. Yeah.

Deepa Patel: Um, not necessary.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:09:20] here it’s very few, like like people qualify with like maybe four extractions or whatever. Like, actually [00:09:25] I shouldn’t say I don’t know. I don’t know for sure. Yeah I don’t know for sure. But when I qualified yeah maybe [00:09:30] I did I don’t know 12 extractions in total. Like like not nothing very difficult. [00:09:35] One surgical maybe.

Deepa Patel: Yeah. No I think I had a mixture of doing [00:09:40] everything and I’m really grateful for all the props. They were in [00:09:45] the uni. They were amazing. I’m still in contact with them and they [00:09:50] actually inspired me. Like the prof used to be. So simple, giving us a simple tips [00:09:55] and they’re still doing the same. And they really love reading my reviews and they say [00:10:00] you are. We taught a lot of people like in over 100,000, whatever, but [00:10:05] you are the one of them who wants to enjoy the dentistry and you are doing the human to [00:10:10] human dentistry, not just the money dentistry. So that’s the one which [00:10:15] I’m like, I’m really grateful for them. And I think that’s why I’m not really demanding [00:10:20] dentist, you know, when I have seen because I worked as a nurse.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah, I’m interested in [00:10:25] that as well.

Deepa Patel: So so I think my nurses are always happy [00:10:30] because, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Because you know what they’re going through. Right.

Deepa Patel: And once I finished patient, by the time [00:10:35] they gone out, the patient is out of the chair. They’re gone, you know, out of the room as well. And I put my [00:10:40] instruments in the dirty saying. So I’m not waiting for them to do everything. I prefer [00:10:45] my, you know, my things to do. So I want the happy team. I want [00:10:50] that dentist and nurse relationship is actually reflecting [00:10:55] on your treatment. Patients really see that. They definitely pick up [00:11:00] if you see my reviews all over the past return. It’s all about. Do you? [00:11:05] The nurses and the you know, the the way we work is all reflecting on that. And that’s [00:11:10] why people just keep coming back. Coming back. They recommend other people say, you know, go [00:11:15] here just because they see we are very happy.

Payman Langroudi: People underestimate the respect [00:11:20] that you show. Your nurse reflects on you.

Deepa Patel: Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: So. So [00:11:25] when, when if you if you say just very simple things. So if you say please, can I have this to [00:11:30] your nurse that shows you as a kind of person to your patient.

Deepa Patel: Definitely. [00:11:35] And you know, like I think some of the dentists, they don’t really let the nurses do [00:11:40] a lot of things. For example, when you’re doing something, if they start talking to them about [00:11:45] their life. Believe me, they open up. Yeah, they are really happy about [00:11:50] it. It’s not like they don’t like it. So I learned this communication, some of the tips from you as well. [00:11:55] And you know, you said the waiting. You say to that, you know, you go and get your patients from [00:12:00] waiting to, to your room. And the journey is.

Payman Langroudi: Super important, I think.

Deepa Patel: Super important [00:12:05] for me. And I learned this from central London, going back to my local where I went [00:12:10] there, and I have seen the all the, you know, the dentists and surgeons, all specialists going. [00:12:15]

Payman Langroudi: To West End or whatever.

Deepa Patel: And yeah, and shaking hands and stuff. And I was like, okay, that’s [00:12:20] really good. And that that shaking hand is like, you know, giving you so much confidence. The patient thinks, [00:12:25] wow, you know, this dentist is is that one two minutes is very important. [00:12:30] And when I started, um, doing this, it does make a huge [00:12:35] difference to my.

Payman Langroudi: Give us a couple of insights, a couple of because you’ve been a nurse. You’ve been a hygienist. [00:12:40] Yes. And of course, you’ve been a dentist.

Deepa Patel: And reception and management as well as [00:12:45] well.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So give us a couple insights about things about those other roles that [00:12:50] that most dentists don’t realise and they should and things they could do differently.

Deepa Patel: Uh, [00:12:55] so for example reception. Yeah. I never go back to my reception. I don’t ask them, [00:13:00] you know, whether you booked a patient in did you take money or anything? I never do that because I know they did it. If [00:13:05] they haven’t done it, you know there will be some reason to do that. So my focus is all about my patients [00:13:10] because I know as a reception I used to do everything what I should do and they are doing their job. [00:13:15] So again, respecting your team, what they’re doing. So if you keep doing micromanaging [00:13:20] other people, you’re wasting really a lot of time on that. It’s the same with my manager.

Payman Langroudi: What’s [00:13:25] the receptionist day like though? I mean like, do you get stressful? Go on. Yeah. Super stressful. I’ve heard [00:13:30] reception is more stressful than nursing.

Deepa Patel: I think the reception.

Payman Langroudi: Is why why stressful. [00:13:35]

Deepa Patel: For example, is the reception is the first important phase to your practice, [00:13:40] even if it’s on the phone or if it’s in a person just walking in your practice. So [00:13:45] the way you deal with the patient, patient, as you said in a few podcasts, like in a patient, [00:13:50] might be walking to you for a lot of reasons, a lot of problems in the background. And [00:13:55] when they are being rude to you, if you become rude to them, for example, that will be just in [00:14:00] the end of the conversation. Patient is not coming to your practice. But if you take it like, [00:14:05] okay, you just listen to them like, okay, you know what problems they might just, you know, [00:14:10] say, okay, I want to come back and can you book an appointment? So that’s very important part [00:14:15] if reception not answering properly on the phone again you lose your patient. So I think [00:14:20] reception is a.

Payman Langroudi: Very rude person, a patients ruder to receptionists than [00:14:25] they are to clinicians. Like that’s something not necessary. I’ve heard that for instance. No, no. [00:14:30]

Deepa Patel: This is a different story. So I have a lot of messages coming like, you know, so and so patient’s [00:14:35] difficult to handle reception. When they pop in, the first thing I do just say, [00:14:40] you know. Hello? Are you okay? Blah blah. And when you just give [00:14:45] more time for them to talk, they just start telling you everything and they become [00:14:50] just. There is definitely reason for them being rude. And when you go into the, you know, roots or [00:14:55] in the history, there is a reason.

Payman Langroudi: Something’s going on.

Deepa Patel: There is definitely like, you know, someone passed away [00:15:00] recently or they’re not happy about overall their life and they have a health issue [00:15:05] going on cancer. So and so. So when you talk to them nicely and you just [00:15:10] listen to them, they’re like, oh, you know, I feel better now. I want to come again. Okay, [00:15:15] can you do a treatment for me. And they come back again like can you now do this tooth for me. So I have [00:15:20] done so many composite bond up after being difficult patient at the reception [00:15:25] into the room. It’s a different story. And when they finish, they are the ones who write the very [00:15:30] good review. So I think never, you know, they say never judge a person like [00:15:35] it’s a book, it’s a front page. It’s different. And when you read the book it’s different. So [00:15:40] reception is definitely a very important key.

Payman Langroudi: And nursing. Do you find when you were a nurse, [00:15:45] did you find dentists were rude to you? Sometimes it’s like, you know like hierarchy thing [00:15:50] where they like like for instance, they didn’t always know you were a dentist, did they?

Deepa Patel: No. Not necessarily. [00:15:55] Uh, some of them, they didn’t know that. But, um, I always worked wherever [00:16:00] I worked, like nursing reception, anything. I just stayed best. You know what I could do that [00:16:05] time. So if I was nurse, I was. I think being nurse was for me, it [00:16:10] was much more important, actually, because I had a lot of dentists there talking to the patients [00:16:15] and, you know, they’re treating them. So I had some retiring dentists, some [00:16:20] just qualified dentists, and I could see the whole different. And that [00:16:25] learning, I think I didn’t learn much, uh, for example, in my exams [00:16:30] or back back in India, I learn from all these observations from, [00:16:35] you know, different.

Payman Langroudi: One nurse was one dentist who was a nurse told me, [00:16:40] she said, one thing that you don’t realise is dentist is when you grab [00:16:45] the suction from the nurse in a way that’s hurtful for the nurse. Yeah. And [00:16:50] it’s such an interesting thing. Like, I’d never would even imagine that I just grabbed the suction and do whatever I’m doing. [00:16:55] And she says a bit hurtful because. Because, you know, that means I’m not doing my job right or something. [00:17:00] No. So some nuances like that, anything like come to mind.

Deepa Patel: To be honest, [00:17:05] I had a lot of dentist friends who came from India same time and we were all [00:17:10] doing exams together. I have seen some of them. They couldn’t do nursing [00:17:15] at all really, number one, because they were dentist and they were not able to [00:17:20] accept that they have to do a nursing.

Payman Langroudi: Couldn’t bring themselves to do.

Deepa Patel: It. Yeah. So they felt the nursing job was not really [00:17:25] good for them. Second, they couldn’t tolerate the other dentist doing certain things and they couldn’t. [00:17:30] They didn’t like it. But for me, again, as I said, I never went to do nursing. [00:17:35] I was there to learn a lot of things from everyone. So for me, it was [00:17:40] not like, you know, £10 per hour job. It was all about me gaining the experience. [00:17:45] And I’m using that now. So now that’s what I say. Like, now I put all my instruments [00:17:50] in place. You know, even when nurses going out, I’m starting mixing my alginate. And [00:17:55] I do impressions without them. And they feel like, you know, okay, you know, it’s not always [00:18:00] we have to do the things and they can have a break as well, and they can have a bad day with [00:18:05] a lot of things, you know, outside the.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a hard job nursing. Right?

Deepa Patel: It is hard. I [00:18:10] feel bad for my nurses sometimes because I’m in dance surgery. They have to go up and down. I don’t know how many [00:18:15] times. And that’s why I make sure that I have a super busy day when I work. [00:18:20] It’s no time for me because I’m fully booked until next year. So, [00:18:25] you know, you can see, like everyone I used to do for days now cut down to two. So trying [00:18:30] to squeeze everybody in. So I feel bad for my nurses sometimes. You know they are running [00:18:35] around. And I said you said, you know what? I’ll do this denture ease. Now you go and have a coffee. And [00:18:40] that respect. And that’s the reason they love being with me. And I [00:18:45] love being with them. That, that that teamwork. If I’m not feeling well, they will do something [00:18:50] for me, like, you know, do you want hot chocolate? It’s just a small gesture that is actually [00:18:55] making my. I love working in wherever. I’m working anywhere. [00:19:00] I just love what I do because it’s just constant joy I [00:19:05] find in dentistry, because I think of all the different roles I have done, even [00:19:10] my manager. We sit down when we don’t have patients like, shall we do this for [00:19:15] this practice? Shall we do this for that practice? Or I have seen this review thing in [00:19:20] other practice, like in our practice we do this way. Shall we try this here? So she said, [00:19:25] you know, we I need you all the time because you know, you you’re not just saying that, [00:19:30] you know, how about my patients? How about my pay? I’m all the time about [00:19:35] how we can do as a, you know, how, how good we can do as a practice. And that’s why probably, [00:19:40] you know, even now coming, helping me so much, wherever I go, wherever [00:19:45] I step in, I’m like, you know, this thing we could do a little bit better, not like straight away, but [00:19:50] just observing the whole day and say, shall we do this? And they’re like, oh yes.

Payman Langroudi: But examples. [00:19:55]

Deepa Patel: Same like a review one for example. It hurts when. [00:20:00]

Payman Langroudi: You ask for reviews.

Deepa Patel: Uh, so I didn’t ask for one year until [00:20:05] one year ago I was not. But then we have this NPS system, you know, we like [00:20:10] we send the text to them, they send the message like they just give us a feedback [00:20:15] on that. But this is all internal. So I read so many good about, you [00:20:20] know, us and sometimes this specify the name of the dentist and and [00:20:25] nurses. So I was like, oh this is very good. But that is not going to the public. [00:20:30] This is just for us. We only read how about the about other people? And nowadays, [00:20:35] you know, wherever you go, they’re all about reviews. Like, anywhere you going? For example, [00:20:40] restaurant tonight you will check, you know, 4.9, 4.8. So same thing then like [00:20:45] every patient sitting in a like in the chair and then they’re going out, they’re like [00:20:50] oh I had the I this is my best dentist ever. Or you know, I loved it. I was nervous. [00:20:55] But everything what they say, I was like, this is what you could put it down into your review. [00:21:00] And then we give them a scanning code and we have a like a dentist [00:21:05] name nurse name. I prefer my nurses name as well there because they are equally [00:21:10] important for me. We give it to them and they do it for us. And if you read them, [00:21:15] you feel like it’s all personal. Smile stories behind each review. They’re [00:21:20] not like a fake review. So we do ask them when they say [00:21:25] a lot of things about what we have done for them. I say, you know, and I say to them, you can write positive [00:21:30] or negative, doesn’t matter if you think we need to improve something, that’s the problem. Probably [00:21:35] the again, important for us. So that’s how we ended up with the good. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Like, [00:21:40] it’s obvious to me that you love people.

Deepa Patel: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Have you always.

Deepa Patel: Yes. [00:21:45]

Payman Langroudi: Like, is it something that, like, someone, you know, like, a lot of times when [00:21:50] you’re really good at something, it comes so naturally that you don’t even realise you’re good at [00:21:55] it? No. Um. But then some people aren’t really good at it. Yeah. So. [00:22:00] So, you know, if someone wants to learn to be good at it. Yeah. Are you in [00:22:05] a position to give any advice there?

Deepa Patel: Um.

Payman Langroudi: So for me, for me, it [00:22:10] comes down to respect. Yeah. It’s respecting other humans.

Deepa Patel: Definitely. [00:22:15]

Payman Langroudi: It’s the easiest way of saying it for me, but. And also the [00:22:20] the lack of hierarchy. You know, a lot of a lot of dentists. I’ve watched a lot of dentists [00:22:25] in, in consultations surprised me how how much like doctor [00:22:30] they are. How? How? How much? The hierarchy they have. And I realised. Oh, I’m obviously [00:22:35] very casual dentist, you know.

Deepa Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what hints can you [00:22:40] give on on that. Because obviously you find it very easy to, to love people. Um, but [00:22:45] not everyone does.

Deepa Patel: No, no. And I think that’s sometimes uh, I would say [00:22:50] there are two ways to look at the dentistry is for me, dentistry is one [00:22:55] thing, and another thing is my personal development. You know, how how good person [00:23:00] I am, that is, that is reflecting into my dentistry. So, [00:23:05] for example, if I’m not a good, um, person, then that [00:23:10] will show to my patient that I’m not really into, you know, treating [00:23:15] them as a human. And that is not working. Well, even if I do [00:23:20] really good dentistry, but they won’t really like me. So the way [00:23:25] it helped me so much in last three years is all about, um, I do a lot of volunteer. [00:23:30] I work with the institute where they want to contribute in others life, [00:23:35] and they do all free. So there are a lot of courses they run, for [00:23:40] example, personality awareness workshops. Uh, how do you like, you know, [00:23:45] uh, go like, you know, how you become a good person and those things. So [00:23:50] I think those free workshops, I would say, are [00:23:55] much more precious to me than actually the because I do paid lot of work, [00:24:00] you know, the training as well. Like you pay a lot of money in dentistry when you do one course. But [00:24:05] I think if I didn’t have that personal development touch, I wouldn’t be a good dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Explain some [00:24:10] of that.

Deepa Patel: So, for example, personality awareness workshops is all about, um, knowing [00:24:15] the person. So each person has two main personalities. There are [00:24:20] four personalities there. So for example perfect. Powerful. Popular. Peaceful. [00:24:25] So each person each personality, they have a strength and weakness. [00:24:30] So. And when you do workshops, you you will come [00:24:35] to know like for example, what your personality, what someone else’s personality when you spend a few minutes [00:24:40] or few hours with them. So and then you know, whether you know, this person is [00:24:45] going through the difficult time or they’re not really enjoying their life, or they are actually [00:24:50] very good with the successful things.

Payman Langroudi: So how do you know? Do you ask certain questions?

Deepa Patel: No. [00:24:55] So there is a way to do it. So each each personality for example popular is [00:25:00] fun way for them. Everything is fun. They are never serious about the thing. So if I’m expecting [00:25:05] for example, popular person behaving very well, perfect and you [00:25:10] know they won’t do it. So I don’t have that expectation. So my with all [00:25:15] these personal development courses, my expectations are coming down and [00:25:20] my acceptance of that person is just is so good. [00:25:25] So I don’t I don’t expect that patient to behave the way I wanted [00:25:30] or the way I am. I’m perfect. I’m powerful. So powerful. For example, they [00:25:35] always, um, want my way. Powerful. Always. Like I’m telling you. [00:25:40] Like, you know, you said some of the dentists, they want their nurses to work certain ways.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of dominant. [00:25:45]

Deepa Patel: Yes. So very powerful. They will make sure that you do work the way they [00:25:50] want it. So that again, I was powerful. But then now I’m, you know, going into [00:25:55] cutting down my weakness and going to my strength more and that helping me so much that [00:26:00] okay, you know, I’m powerful, but I don’t want to let that thing to affect my [00:26:05] people around me. So.

Payman Langroudi: So, so okay. So patient walks in. You’ve never met [00:26:10] them before? No, you’ve you’ve gone out and got them from the from the reception. Those what [00:26:15] we said those little conversations on the way. You’re, you’re sort of uh, metre [00:26:20] is you’re analysing what kind of person is this. Yes. So, so you’re [00:26:25] literally saying as he’s walking in, if he’s smiling and joking and laughing. Yes. You’re [00:26:30] going down like he’s he’s a popular, like, fun kind of character. Yeah. And so you’re already [00:26:35] forming that impression. So the powerful characters were a bit more serious.

Deepa Patel: So you know the one [00:26:40] you say the patience or dentist or staff, when they are powerful, they always [00:26:45] demanding. Okay, so now I know this person, like the powerful patient, [00:26:50] for example, is demanding. So if you just do a good communication. [00:26:55]

Payman Langroudi: Let them demand a bit.

Deepa Patel: Yes, yes. And then you discuss, [00:27:00] you tell them all the treatment plan detailing and you tell them [00:27:05] that this is a realistic achievement I could do for you.

Payman Langroudi: And they appreciate that.

Deepa Patel: They [00:27:10] will definitely appreciate.

Payman Langroudi: So we’ve got popular powerful. What were the other two?

Deepa Patel: Peaceful.

Payman Langroudi: Peaceful.

Deepa Patel: Go for [00:27:15] peaceful.

Payman Langroudi: As you would expect it to be. So very quiet.

Deepa Patel: Peaceful [00:27:20] is like easy. They don’t care about the vineyard looking, for example, to [00:27:25] precise as long as long as they have a tooth in their mouth, they’re happy. [00:27:30] They’re happy so peacefully. They’re always like, easy way. You know, they don’t want major. [00:27:35] They don’t have much of demanding patients. Yeah. And I love it because, you know, [00:27:40] then I know you know how to deal with them. Because again, uh, we do this.

Payman Langroudi: We don’t want too much [00:27:45] detail even. No, no, no.

Deepa Patel: So we do this, uh, so, so each personality, [00:27:50] they have their emotional need. So if you fulfil that emotional [00:27:55] need again, you’re winner.

Payman Langroudi: Because what was the fourth one.

Deepa Patel: So the fourth one is [00:28:00] I think perfect.

Payman Langroudi: Perfect. Yeah. They like perfection.

Deepa Patel: So for me for example I do [00:28:05] composer I have seen that composite patients so happy. But for me that [00:28:10] small thing, that little rounding uh, you know, the front central incisor. [00:28:15] So before I used to do too much into perfection. And they do plan a lot as [00:28:20] well. So now I’d say to myself, you know, As long as it’s looking good, [00:28:25] everything is good. Just. Just let it go. It’s not like.

Payman Langroudi: By the way. By the way. Learning [00:28:30] point. Learning point. When I was a young dentist, I used to do things like I’d [00:28:35] fit that veneer or composite, whatever it was. Yeah. And I thought it made me look good to [00:28:40] say I’m not 100% happy with it because I’m such a perfectionist. Yeah. [00:28:45] I thought that made me look good. But from the patient perspective, the last [00:28:50] thing you want is for your dentist to say I’m not 100% happy. Yeah. You start thinking, well, there’s something wrong with it here. [00:28:55] No, but I used to think that was a way of looking like an expert. Yeah. But. [00:29:00] But that’s not what the patient wants to hear. No, no.

Deepa Patel: I think if you would have [00:29:05] a word it right, if you would have put it in a right way, like, you know, how do you feel [00:29:10] about it? Let patient decide. You don’t decide. Does it [00:29:15] make sense to you? Of course. And. And then you give your thoughts about it, like, you know, [00:29:20] okay. You know, certain things. So for me, these four categories. Everywhere [00:29:25] I go, everywhere I work. Nurses, dentists and staff. I [00:29:30] think in the last three years, personally, I could see where I was before and [00:29:35] now it’s a huge difference. And I say to my mentor because [00:29:40] I got mentors.

Payman Langroudi: In the development area.

Deepa Patel: Area like they train everybody, [00:29:45] but I just try to take everything from them. And I say to them, you don’t [00:29:50] know that. You know you don’t have a clue in it. They are in India and I’m here [00:29:55] that what I’m achieving because of these courses. It’s [00:30:00] just making my life so easy. So for example, again, being perfectionist, [00:30:05] I used to run late because, you know, I’m not letting go. The things now I’m like, you know, [00:30:10] I’m trying to say, okay, fine, it’s all done. And then, you know, showing to the patient [00:30:15] because nurses, if she is powerful or if she is about the timing. So [00:30:20] like nurses I work with, they are perfect and I’m taking the time and like they are like [00:30:25] being impatient. So for me again, I can see why she is being impatience. And [00:30:30] I’m just trying to, you know, get into work.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting because if you didn’t have this [00:30:35] classification, that could cause a lot of friction. Oh, it would be like.

Deepa Patel: So many arguments.

Payman Langroudi: Ununderstandable [00:30:40] friction.

Deepa Patel: It will go in the ER. When patient walks in, they will see the dentist and [00:30:45] nurse is not in a good, you know, terms. And now my nurse and me and I have [00:30:50] usually sameness but then you know different nurses working with me. Everybody I just [00:30:55] the whole environment is so happy. We have a music in the background. We talk about [00:31:00] a lot of things. So as you say to you, what.

Payman Langroudi: Music, what music do you. I think that’s a really interesting question. [00:31:05] Yeah, I really think that’s interesting question. My nurse, when I was a dentist, we’re talking years ago, [00:31:10] my nurse wanted the local radio station, you know, the local Capital Radio, whatever [00:31:15] pop music station. And I was saying, it doesn’t matter what you want. Yeah, [00:31:20] we need the correct music. Yeah, and I’m not a massive classical music fan. [00:31:25] Yeah, I kind of kind of like it, but. But I thought classical music was expensive [00:31:30] music. Yeah. And so I wanted to do my composite bonding. I wanted to [00:31:35] feel like I’m some sort of artist. So I’m using the brush on the tooth like this. And. [00:31:40] But with classical music playing in the background, I thought I would tell her, look, I [00:31:45] really think if you have classical on or if you have pop on, you can charge 30 or £40 more per tooth because [00:31:50] it’s classical. Yeah. And she would say, no, no, no, no, we want pop music. And after a while I overruled. [00:31:55] And I said, look, just try it for a week. And then she started getting into it. So tell me, do you have the music [00:32:00] on that you like, or do you have the music on that wants to fit the mood or what do you have?

Deepa Patel: So [00:32:05] for example, I love Hindi instrumental instrumental music. [00:32:10] Uh, it’s just because I know the lyrics. So I actually sing or hum. So [00:32:15] uh, and my nurse. She is also Asian background. [00:32:20] So you know she loves and she knows a lot of songs as well. So it’s just both of us.

Payman Langroudi: And this English patient [00:32:25] walks in. What happens?

Deepa Patel: They do they do love it really. They asking us, you know, what type of [00:32:30] music. And some of them they know as well.

Payman Langroudi: Is it, is it, um, instrumental like no words. [00:32:35]

Deepa Patel: No words.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So like sitars and whatever it.

Deepa Patel: Is and it’s so relaxing. They [00:32:40] love it.

Payman Langroudi: Like a spa feeling.

Deepa Patel: Spa.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Is like.

Deepa Patel: A.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:32:45] yeah, yeah I get that. That’s nice. That’s nice.

Deepa Patel: Very good for the longer treatment and I think [00:32:50] uh, so I have one nurse she doesn’t like that much. So I always say you know what you want. And [00:32:55] she would she like, put radio on and it’s fine for me as well. But I think [00:33:00] one of my patients, she was asking like, do you charge the treatment? Like do you charge [00:33:05] for your singing into your treatment as well? And I said, no, no, no, this is this is just extra [00:33:10] for you and humming. Yeah. A lot of my patients, they said you are humming dentist [00:33:15] because.

Payman Langroudi: Humming Bombing dentist.

Deepa Patel: Yeah, I’m. I’m taking the tooth out, and I’m just humming [00:33:20] because I know that lyrics and patient just laughing. Recently we had a patient. He [00:33:25] it was his birthday and he said, I’m happy to take this tooth out if you don’t [00:33:30] mind. And we did it. And then I took it out and said, happy birthday to you like that. And he actually [00:33:35] wrote down in the review that he loved the whole experience. So I think [00:33:40] getting the personal touch in dentistry is for me is a key, obviously.

Payman Langroudi: Not [00:33:45] for everyone. Just start humming things interesting, isn’t it? It means the dentist is relaxed. The dentist, they tell me. [00:33:50] You know, that itself. It’s like every.

Deepa Patel: Patient walks in. They tell me that, you know, [00:33:55] because they’re like, I wish you will be my GP. I wish you will be my lab. And the [00:34:00] reason they say is because they can see how much I’m happy what I’m doing. They can tell [00:34:05] even again in review they say that, uh, he wrote it down. That dentist is going on a lot of [00:34:10] courses. He, she talked about to me, and I felt like I was not just [00:34:15] the patient. She talked about my family and she talked about her family. So when [00:34:20] I’m waiting for my LA to work, you know, when they come in. So we have this set of things, we talk about [00:34:25] holidays and, and, you know, just simple things. For example. Oh, I love that bracelet. And [00:34:30] she’s like, oh, this is from my great grandson or blah. So they have a story [00:34:35] to tell about the things. And it’s very simple. But the whole experience of that patient [00:34:40] coming into the chair even in ten minutes Check-up we talk a lot. We literally [00:34:45] talk a lot.

Payman Langroudi: So look, you go to a lot of practices where you must be exposed to a lot of different dentistry, [00:34:50] right. So you have to deal with whatever comes in front of you that day. Yes. So that could be [00:34:55] anything from a child to an implant case or, you know, [00:35:00] you must have been exposed to a lot of different things. And I guess that in one way makes you a better dentist because [00:35:05] you have to learn about those different things to, to.

Deepa Patel: I would definitely say that I have become more [00:35:10] better because of coming, because, for example, when I go to Bupa, I know what [00:35:15] is my day like. All I know, all my patients, I know the staff. When I go to locum, [00:35:20] anything.

Payman Langroudi: Could be.

Deepa Patel: Anything like first thing in the morning. Upper left seven root [00:35:25] canal. I never seen this patient before. Nervous patient. And that is [00:35:30] making me like, you know. Okay. And for example, patient had a feeling 3 or 4 times [00:35:35] before someone else. And now coming to me and all the same expectations from [00:35:40] them. And that is really helping me to become a better dentist every [00:35:45] single day.

Payman Langroudi: But you must have found yourself in some hairy situations as well. Um, like, did you [00:35:50] ever have a situation where, I don’t know, some implant, uh, was, uh, [00:35:55] was, uh, loose or, but then again, something like, like something where you didn’t know what to do because, [00:36:00] you know, we all know what to expect when you’re going into lots of different practices. Yeah. [00:36:05] Has that ever happened?

Deepa Patel: Uh.

Deepa Patel: So what happened is, uh, this is years ago. [00:36:10] Yeah. I’m talking about roughly 20, 1516 there was a patient Bupa locum [00:36:15] then, like hygienist I was doing, everybody came into me and they said, [00:36:20] oh, you know, this is difficult, patient. Blah, blah. She’ll demand so many things, [00:36:25] you know, just warning signs to me. And I’m like, okay, fine. So I spoke to her, um, [00:36:30] done the things for her. Just spend a few extra minutes. I don’t mind what time I finish, you know? For [00:36:35] me, it’s more important that that patient live happy. Yeah. You wouldn’t believe she [00:36:40] left the practice. And then she tried to find out where I am actually working as a, [00:36:45] you know, permanent dentist. She. I don’t know how she found me. I think probably on Facebook. [00:36:50] I don’t know. She came to that practice within six months. [00:36:55] And she’s like, now if you leave from here in case, I’ll try to find where you are. [00:37:00] So she’s still trying to.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s a happy story. I want a sad story.

Deepa Patel: Um. [00:37:05]

Deepa Patel: To be honest, not many. It just probably, again, because [00:37:10] every time they come in. Yeah. So when I think my listening [00:37:15] mode is becoming more and more and more better. So sometimes I feel like, [00:37:20] like a lot of patients comes in like discussing about they want ground or, you know, the difficulties, [00:37:25] for example, difficult cases in terms of clinical dentistry. I tell them the [00:37:30] ethical right things to do. Give them options. Be honest advantage [00:37:35] disadvantage, risk. And I never forced them you know do this do that [00:37:40] or this is important. I just say to them, if it’s my family sitting here, this is [00:37:45] the advice. I would give it to them entirely. Up to you. So I try not to put my [00:37:50] myself in the situation that it’s going more worse in the end.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I know, but because [00:37:55] you’re in so many different places, so many different people, so many different treatments, the possibility of coming [00:38:00] across a difficult situation is much higher.

Deepa Patel: Higher, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: So this is what I’m saying. What were the difficult [00:38:05] situations so far?

Deepa Patel: It’s just sometimes, for example, difficult extraction, [00:38:10] difficult extraction. And I’m like, I don’t think so. This is going [00:38:15] to come out. But for me, surprisingly, it’s actually working. I thought, why [00:38:20] this dentist is giving me this patient to do this, this, this extractions. There is no [00:38:25] way I can do it. But when actually I do it. But informing the patient is more important [00:38:30] that see I will try my best to do this this this. Yeah. If it doesn’t work [00:38:35] or you know if the things doesn’t go the way we want it, this could be the option for you to do [00:38:40] it. And then I get that confidence to deal with that situation more better. And actually [00:38:45] I felt like I could do that as well, which I won’t do in Bupa if it my my own treatment [00:38:50] planning, I wouldn’t suggest that. I will say, you know, I’m referring you and [00:38:55] because of the low income, I’m just following everybody’s treatment planning that [00:39:00] is actually helping.

Payman Langroudi: That situation where you’ve come in to do [00:39:05] something, you’ve got the dentist treatment plan. You’re having to do something [00:39:10] and you totally disagree with what what he’s decided to to to do.

Deepa Patel: So then I had.

Payman Langroudi: That [00:39:15] must be an issue.

Deepa Patel: Right? I had, I had.

Payman Langroudi: So what do you do there.

Deepa Patel: So again I just be like [00:39:20] honest with the for example patient.

Payman Langroudi: You literally say I don’t agree with what you’re doing.

Deepa Patel: No, no, no I [00:39:25] don’t put it that way. The way I do is for example, I just say like this patient is so all [00:39:30] the time they book it as a review. So when I look into the x rays and, you know, check everything [00:39:35] and I feel like this is probably not the way, you know, for example, recently I had a patient, [00:39:40] she said she wants to go for extra. She was advised extraction. So there was no pain, no [00:39:45] problems. You know, everything was fine. So I just asked her a lot of questions and [00:39:50] she gave me the option and I realised that, you know, I won’t do extraction. So I said to patient [00:39:55] that, look, you’re not in pain. There is no infection or anything. What do you want [00:40:00] to do? You have option. I can just simply seal the tooth off for you. It’s a guarded [00:40:05] prognosis. But in the long term, you will have to remove the tooth if it’s giving you trouble or pain. It [00:40:10] was the only one molar left there. So if I remove that, she’s gonna struggle to eating. And [00:40:15] she really appreciated what I said to her. And she said, you know what? I would [00:40:20] love to try what you said. So again, the way you put the things in that okay, I [00:40:25] understand so and so dentist advise you this to me. These are the things I feel [00:40:30] could be you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Comfortable with that.

Deepa Patel: Very, very comfortable. I think again because [00:40:35] of the history of, uh, you know, having all this experience. Experience [00:40:40] is helping me so much. And she was very happy when she [00:40:45] left. And she, she obviously, if you think yourself as a patient, you coming for extraction and you [00:40:50] have a fear that you don’t have any more teeth left to eat on that side, and now you say, [00:40:55] okay, I can probably keep that for another five years. So there will be every [00:41:00] time every dentist will have, for example, they say, yeah, they said there is a caries [00:41:05] underneath the filling, but for me, I might not be saying the same. I would say, you know, I wouldn’t [00:41:10] touch that deep. Close to deep amalgam filling close to the now remove [00:41:15] that and end into the pulpal involvement, root canal and extraction. So I would say [00:41:20] there is a chance they will need replacement, but there is a risk. So [00:41:25] the way you explain, I think a lot of people or dentists do feel [00:41:30] that they don’t give the information to the patient. They think it’s too much. But [00:41:35] for me, the communication, the information is the key because they know [00:41:40] the whole picture and they trust. That’s why I get the trust from the patient that okay, you know [00:41:45] what? She she has explained me the whole thing and truth the ethical [00:41:50] way. And they’re like, okay, fine. I know I would love to go for this [00:41:55] option. And then I document everything, make sure everything written and I say patient is [00:42:00] aware what will be the long term and.

Payman Langroudi: The locum life. It [00:42:05] must have some advantages. Inasmuch as you can be, let’s say one week. Your [00:42:10] kid needs you more. You don’t have to work that week, right? It’s very flexible in that sense.

Deepa Patel: And this is the reason [00:42:15] I do.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Deepa Patel: This is so like summer holidays now.

Payman Langroudi: But also you have to [00:42:20] drive distances surely.

Deepa Patel: No no no. I don’t choose the long distance.

Payman Langroudi: You’re within sort of what. [00:42:25] Yeah. 40 minutes or whatever you decide.

Deepa Patel: So if you see the Derbyshire is beautiful driving. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:42:30] you stick to near your house. Yeah. And there’s enough workers there if you want to.

Deepa Patel: It’s more than enough.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, okay. [00:42:35]

Deepa Patel: I have to say no.

Payman Langroudi: Cool cool cool.

Deepa Patel: So I have to say no. And I work over weekends as well. [00:42:40] Sometimes.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me. Tell me about, you know, motherhood. Um, [00:42:45] you know, this notion of having it all from the. It’s very difficult as [00:42:50] a mother. It’s very difficult because you have to sort of. Do you have the guilt question with your kids [00:42:55] that you’re not spending enough time with them? Sometimes, these sort of things. How old are your kids?

Deepa Patel: So [00:43:00] my.

Payman Langroudi: 216 because of.

Deepa Patel: For Empire. And how so? [00:43:05] Okay. Two of them, boy and girl. So I would say I’ve been very lucky in [00:43:10] terms of my husband being very flexible.

Payman Langroudi: He works from home. Does he? Yeah.

Deepa Patel: Yeah. [00:43:15] So I don’t remember when I had to go home and cancel my patients in the [00:43:20] last six years, which is amazing. And again, I’ve been blessed in terms of [00:43:25] I know it’s a Covid, but again, I had enough time with them until now. [00:43:30] You know, like two years of nice break.

Payman Langroudi: So, for instance, during the school holidays, do you work [00:43:35] a lot less? Is that how you do it?

Deepa Patel: Like this whole summer holidays, I’ve been all the time outside. [00:43:40] Like I’m not working much.

Payman Langroudi: That is nice.

Deepa Patel: When they go to school, I’m not sitting [00:43:45] home. I just go and work. And I think Bupa gave me a really good flexibility. [00:43:50] So I start at ten. So 1:00 I have lunch break for one hour and then 2 to 5. So [00:43:55] three hours, three hours, six hours. And I’m done.

Payman Langroudi: And Bupa you tell me about Bupa as [00:44:00] far as working in a corporate because some people are worried about.

Deepa Patel: They don’t like.

Payman Langroudi: It. Some people worry [00:44:05] about corporates I think is a bit different to most of the corporates. But what [00:44:10] are your reflections?

Deepa Patel: I love it.

Payman Langroudi: Do you, do you?

Deepa Patel: I love it. Um, I think again [00:44:15] it depends on what practice you are, how the team are. My team is dream team. I can tell you that [00:44:20] dream team as soon as I walk in. I just love it. So I never, [00:44:25] you know, a lot of people. I had this, uh, the podcast, I was listening, and they were talking [00:44:30] about the work life balance thing. I never had that situation. Work life balance thing. [00:44:35] The work life balance you need when you don’t like what you do, [00:44:40] you know, you feel like you’re forced to go somewhere where you don’t like it. For me, it’s [00:44:45] not the case. As soon as I walk in, I’m done. I’m not. I’m switching [00:44:50] myself into dentistry. My patients, my. You know, the team.

Payman Langroudi: Is it? It’s [00:44:55] easier doing dentistry than being a mother. No.

Deepa Patel: Uh, no, I love both.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:45:00] which is easier.

Deepa Patel: Um, I think dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Me too.

Deepa Patel: Yeah. [00:45:05] You got two kids as well, so.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, well, I’m not [00:45:10] the mother, but. Yeah, I don’t know, man. Dentistry. At least you know what’s what. Whereas with kids, you have to, like, [00:45:15] constantly.

Deepa Patel: It’s a constant. So before, you know. Uh, I [00:45:20] had my daughter bulimia. I thought I wouldn’t be a good mother. And I thought, you know, [00:45:25] like keeping a kid for one one hour. Two hours is a different story when you have 24 [00:45:30] over seven, a lot of demanding. And this is why I would say I’ve been very blessed with my [00:45:35] understanding. Like, the husband is like, your partner is very [00:45:40] important.

Payman Langroudi: Definitely.

Deepa Patel: So if I say I have like for example, podcast today, he is looking after [00:45:45] the kids. So that’s support. So he uh like both of us, we work [00:45:50] around. So when he’s not busy, I’ll take lukewarm. When he’s busy [00:45:55] I don’t take lukewarm. So we’re not losing any financial Stuff. But [00:46:00] still, our kids always have someone, either me or my husband. And as you [00:46:05] mentioned, the mother guild. You know, when you go to work leaving your one year or two years old. [00:46:10]

Payman Langroudi: A lot of it, people sitting where you’re sitting.

Deepa Patel: 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Guilty.

Deepa Patel: 100%. [00:46:15] And I have colleagues actually went for maternity and they come back and when I talk to them, they have [00:46:20] the same thing. For example, your kid getting something from nursery and then you go and then you have to [00:46:25] stay home with them or you staying home because you know. Well, yeah. So again you have a [00:46:30] guilt of that. You not able to justify your patience. You’re not able to justify [00:46:35] your but that balance if you know that it’s okay. Before [00:46:40] I was struggling a lot, you know before I had this workshops done, [00:46:45] three years of my volunteering, I would say I was not able to accept the things. [00:46:50] Now I’m like, it’s okay if it’s not well, he’s not well, you [00:46:55] know, before it’s like, why he’s not well, why we didn’t look after or [00:47:00] why he.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t end up being kinder to yourself sort of thing. Is that the kind of thing we’re talking about?

Deepa Patel: Yes. [00:47:05] I love my me time. So I have one weekday off. [00:47:10] When kids go to school, I sit down with my books, and every week I [00:47:15] reflect my week in the last week. I learned this from one of the [00:47:20] book I was reading about it. The reflection is very important. When [00:47:25] you don’t reflect. You are like walking in the tunnel. There is no light. But when I go [00:47:30] back and reflect, you know, that’s last week or whatever, there were a lot of important things which we couldn’t [00:47:35] do it. So before I was not able to accept being a perfect personality, I’m like, it has [00:47:40] to be done. But now I’m like, it’s okay. It’s not being done. Accept it. [00:47:45] And that really helps. We, me and my husband, we went to last year to meditation [00:47:50] course for ten days and that has changed our life again. So no. [00:47:55]

Payman Langroudi: What did you do with the kids?

Deepa Patel: So I went first.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Deepa Patel: So he he [00:48:00] saw I think it was very good for me. So he booked myself and I booked [00:48:05] him. So we gave a gift to each.

Payman Langroudi: One of these silent retreats. Yes.

Deepa Patel: Silent ten. [00:48:10]

Payman Langroudi: Days. Didn’t talk for ten days.

Deepa Patel: And no phone.

Payman Langroudi: And just meditated the whole time.

Deepa Patel: 16 hours a [00:48:15] day.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my God. So go on. I’ve had. I’ve had other people go. Friends of mine done that. How does [00:48:20] it leave you? You come out clearer.

Deepa Patel: I think the my whole inner at [00:48:25] that time, I think I was 38 or my whole 30 years, 38 years just [00:48:30] gone from, you know, one like from my childhood till today, all the things you [00:48:35] know, happen in my life. It just came like a big picture in front of me. Because [00:48:40] you don’t have anybody to talk. You you talk to yourself. Yeah. And they say, [00:48:45] you know, you you suppress a lot of things. Like nowadays, I see, and I feel bad for the [00:48:50] dentist and a lot of stuff. They have so much stress going on all the time. Stress about [00:48:55] a lot of things. And for me, that retreat was really good because the way [00:49:00] they teach you that everything is impermanent. I’m sitting with you now. Right [00:49:05] now, my moment is with you. No, Payman, I’m talking about the thing. It’s my podcast. [00:49:10] I’m not worried about the past. I’m not worried about what will happen afterwards. I’m just living [00:49:15] in the moment because of that retreat. So before I was like, I’m here. [00:49:20] But then I’m thinking, oh, when I’m gonna finish what I’m gonna do next. The all the time, next, next, [00:49:25] next.

Deepa Patel: I’m in Switzerland. But then I’m thinking about what? About my next holiday. So I was never [00:49:30] into the moment. And now I’m. If, you know, I came for course. The [00:49:35] train was cancelled the next day. There was a problem with the travelling before. If it [00:49:40] was me before three years or even last retreat, I’ll be like stressed [00:49:45] and, you know, regretting and angry. Now I’m like, it’s okay. [00:49:50] Just five minutes late. You know, it’s not. I’m not gonna going to miss the whole day. [00:49:55] I’m still going. So I’m being grateful. So that’s what I do as well. So [00:50:00] they said everything is impermanent. Whether it’s a good time or bad time, it’s on [00:50:05] you. Do you want to stay in that moment? And that’s why I love my dentistry. On that day, [00:50:10] I never check my diary ahead. I don’t check next day. What’s happening? No I don’t. I just [00:50:15] even I don’t check my day a lot of a lot of time. My nurse telling me you have this patient coming in the [00:50:20] afternoon, you know that. Oh, yes. Yes. So that is.

Payman Langroudi: Living in the moment, isn’t it?

Deepa Patel: It is, [00:50:25] but it helps. Otherwise, you’re stressing too much about tomorrow. There is few places or [00:50:30] whatever spaces. And why would I care about that?

Payman Langroudi: Do they teach you to meditate?

Deepa Patel: Yes. [00:50:35] So it’s nothing. It’s just you sit down and breathe. Breathe. That’s it. [00:50:40]

Payman Langroudi: That’s it.

Deepa Patel: That’s.

Payman Langroudi: It. For ten days.

Deepa Patel: And I.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t. So interesting. So what goes? What happens [00:50:45] in day one? Day two, day nine, day ten. Like what emotions go through you.

Deepa Patel: So the [00:50:50] whole ten days designed by. You know, that person who has developed [00:50:55] the whole technique is based on the Buddhism but is not related to religion. Anyone can do it [00:51:00] and you’ll be surprised that there is a waiting list for this.

Payman Langroudi: Is waiting list become very [00:51:05] popular?

Deepa Patel: Yeah, yeah, and I actually got my place in waiting. Even my husband got placed in waiting. [00:51:10] So it’s just someone cancel. You go. So ten days, the [00:51:15] first day, they start with, you know, telling you just concentrate on breathing. First day, second day, [00:51:20] a bit more, deeper.

Payman Langroudi: Deeper in a.

Deepa Patel: Group. 150 female, 50 male altogether. [00:51:25] All together.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Deepa Patel: Yeah. And then you wake up at four, you start your meditation. They [00:51:30] provide you breakfast, lunch and dinner, just the fruits and stuff. But the more important thing [00:51:35] for me to stay for that ten days was really [00:51:40] hard living. Two kids behind and you know, and then my emotions like whatever [00:51:45] the things or mistakes I have done in my life, in personal or anywhere, [00:51:50] it just came up. You know all the things.

Payman Langroudi: Which day? Which day did that start happening?

Deepa Patel: Uh, [00:51:55] third. Fourth day. So they say the sixth day is more difficult because [00:52:00] everything come up on the surface. And a lot of people cry. I cried [00:52:05] as well. I know you feel.

Payman Langroudi: Are you constantly with loads of people or are you on your own? Sometimes.

Deepa Patel: Sometimes [00:52:10] you’re on your own. You don’t have to be in that room like the big hall for all the time. [00:52:15] You only have to be like 3 or 4 hours a day. You have a flexibility. No one is telling [00:52:20] you to do that.

Payman Langroudi: Is it physically difficult? Like you’re on your own?

Deepa Patel: Sometimes people complain about [00:52:25] the back pain, but they do provide you support for that as well. But it’s my [00:52:30] again my mentor. He told me very one small advice that, you know, don’t leave, [00:52:35] don’t don’t leave like don’t leave midway. Don’t come out of that finish. [00:52:40] Yeah. Complete it. And that was my head all the time. You know I’m gonna finish. [00:52:45] But the the the best part of the whole day was in the evening. There was a lecture [00:52:50] In that lecture he will explain to you. What did you feel all day? Why did you [00:52:55] feel it? And how to, you know, get that better every day?

Payman Langroudi: All this [00:53:00] time you’re not allowed to talk to anyone else?

Deepa Patel: No, no. Completely. Silence. Yeah. [00:53:05]

Payman Langroudi: What do you. But it’s so interesting.

Deepa Patel: A lot of authors go there. A lot of popular [00:53:10] celebrities, they go there because. Can you see this world going the way it is all the time [00:53:15] on the phone? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Deepa Patel: Uh, constant mental. Like, you know, you look. I [00:53:20] feel like a robot all the time. You know, constant, like a home mom [00:53:25] duties, you know, household stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. There’s loads of. I mean, your phone, there’s loads of stuff constantly. [00:53:30] You’re getting your attention. Completely. Distraction.

Deepa Patel: Yeah. So you [00:53:35] meet yourself, basically. And when I did that, you know, and they teach [00:53:40] you this is the very coming back to my patients again. So when patient is being angry [00:53:45] or rude that teaching from vipassana meditation is telling me deeper. Be [00:53:50] nice, you know. Be kind. You know there is a reason. [00:53:55] And show your empathy, sympathy, everything. That quality is [00:54:00] really helping me. I have patients coming in crying. They have cancer, they [00:54:05] have some lot of family issues. And they come and they cry and they. And I [00:54:10] am a hugger person. So I always give them a hug and they finish. I have treated patients [00:54:15] in the normal chair, not on the dental chair. I have done extraction, I have done denture fit because [00:54:20] patient was literally not able to come into the room. She’s like, I’m not coming. And [00:54:25] she said, I took 1 or 2 weeks to prepare myself to come in here. [00:54:30] So if you think about.

Payman Langroudi: All these patients.

Deepa Patel: All these men, you know, the mental, um, like [00:54:35] difficulties for patients to treat, dentistry is not different. Sorry. [00:54:40] Difficult I would say is treating patient is more difficult. And this all [00:54:45] things what I’m doing in the background. So a lot of people think that, you know, she does so much, [00:54:50] so many things and they don’t realise the importance of that in my dentistry because [00:54:55] they haven’t done it. But if they would, I have so many friends. They actually [00:55:00] done the personality awareness workshop along with me. I told them, do you want to do it? And [00:55:05] they did it and they’re like, lovely, I want to do it again. And they’re like, do you want to be my mentor? [00:55:10] Do you want to talk to me about the things you know? Can you teach me how to live [00:55:15] happy and peaceful and, you know, all the time the energy level? I’m [00:55:20] always like this. Even I’m not. Well, I’m my level. High energy level is always [00:55:25] up and talking to everybody. Patients, staff just [00:55:30] need so much energy and passing on that positive energy for patients [00:55:35] like they know they have so much going on. And if you just say, you know, everything will be fine, that [00:55:40] that reassurance from you, it makes a huge difference. So I think [00:55:45] I always say to my staff and my mentors, you know, I don’t do dental [00:55:50] health issue. I deal with the dental and mental health issue together.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:55:55]

Deepa Patel: And and that is actually a key to success because.

Payman Langroudi: Look, [00:56:00] listen, my wife did an operation. We picked the guy we liked the most. Yeah. [00:56:05] Not not based on his. I mean, we did. We knew they were all good guys, but in the end, it [00:56:10] was a big operation. It wasn’t a filling. Yeah. No, we ended up picking the guy we liked. Yeah, and [00:56:15] it’s not like you’re even awake during the operation, right? No. So it goes a long way. Like the [00:56:20] guy who felt like he understood us. You know.

Deepa Patel: You feel that confident when you talk to them? [00:56:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Deepa Patel: The vibe.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Deepa Patel: The vibe you get in. As you said, when you walk into the practice, [00:56:30] you know, you feel like I want this. I want to come.

Payman Langroudi: Back to those initial things. Let’s talk about [00:56:35] sort of the darker side any time. What comes to mind when I say was who was your [00:56:40] most difficult patient?

Deepa Patel: Um, like in terms of [00:56:45] the treating there, like in terms of the clinical or just dealing [00:56:50] with them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I mean, it tends to be dealing with them that becomes the issue. But but either either [00:56:55] I mean what tends to happen is something clinically goes wrong. Yeah. And then the patient overreacts [00:57:00] to it or something. Yeah. And then that turns into a complaint or turns into [00:57:05] a situation. Loss of loss of confidence.

Deepa Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind when I say [00:57:10] that.

Deepa Patel: I had, um, one obviously it was not much [00:57:15] clinical, but it was about the referring the patient. And, um, I literally [00:57:20] just procrastinated my stuff and it was a bit delayed. And then he ended up doing [00:57:25] the complain about it. So first stage I was just like, you know, stress. But it was [00:57:30] not clinical. So I was not much, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you were supposed to send a referral, but you hadn’t.

Deepa Patel: Uh, [00:57:35] it just it was it took longer because it was a transition between the paper and the [00:57:40] electronic, and I was going on maternity, so it was just so much going on. But I learned [00:57:45] from that mistake. And nowadays, what I do is it was resolved. [00:57:50] It was resolved.

Payman Langroudi: Was it like. What was it like an oral surgery?

Deepa Patel: No no no no. It was just a root canal. [00:57:55] So I did stage one already, but I couldn’t find all the canals.

Payman Langroudi: So send me to an Endodontist.

Deepa Patel: Yes, [00:58:00] yes, yes.

Payman Langroudi: And then he goes, where’s my referral?

Deepa Patel: Uh, so he’s like, you [00:58:05] know, like why I didn’t hear anything about it. But then I rectified [00:58:10] those things and he was happy in the end.

Payman Langroudi: And you learned not to make that mistake again.

Deepa Patel: I [00:58:15] think, uh, definitely in terms of again, I look back and [00:58:20] I see, okay, this is my mistake. And nowadays, what I do straight in front of the patient, [00:58:25] I just refer them straight away. So if they say I want ortho, [00:58:30] it doesn’t take more than one minute. But again, it’s all about you. Being efficient [00:58:35] is more important. And now I learned this. And before again, I was just [00:58:40] building up a lot of work. You know, it’s admin. So much admin along with the dentist, like [00:58:45] in a lab thing, sending the pictures of the patients every single day. Once [00:58:50] you finish with the patients, you have so much to follow up. So now I’m just making a list on [00:58:55] my list in a day list and straight away, okay, take.

Payman Langroudi: The one thing I’m happiest about not [00:59:00] practising anymore is that yeah, I don’t have.

Deepa Patel: You don’t miss.

Payman Langroudi: The admin. [00:59:05] No. Well, the admin when I was a dentist wasn’t as bad. No. Yeah. We used to do like exam nad [00:59:10] that. Was it finished. That was the whole examination on the, [00:59:15] in the notes.

Deepa Patel: I have seen, I have seen when I was working uh Oliver in UK, I’m [00:59:20] talking about 2016 and I went one practice. They still using the paper one. Yeah. [00:59:25] 2016. Yeah. And I had to write.

Payman Langroudi: Down NHS.

Deepa Patel: Things. Yeah. Brown and then white papers [00:59:30] in the private. And I had to write everything every time with the pen and I’m like [00:59:35] okay. But there are a lot of dentists. They obviously if you’re retiring, do you bother to go back [00:59:40] to, you know, the electric and notes. But these days I think all the softwares [00:59:45] are amazing. There are a lot of help, but I think I learned from my mistake very, very, [00:59:50] uh, like, efficiently.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, how long do you stay after your last [00:59:55] patient leaves? Just doing the admin bits.

Deepa Patel: Before I used to. I used to do [01:00:00] a lot, I’m telling you, like we had access to Dental from home as well, but I’m very thankful [01:00:05] to my manager. She said you’re not doing that. She said, um, she’s [01:00:10] amazing. She said to me, do you really want text from the practice when you’re not in the practice? [01:00:15] And I said, no, actually not. So I said, why do you bother to answer if someone is asking you? [01:00:20] I said, that’s true. She said no to everyone that you’re not gonna text anything. [01:00:25] You know, when she comes back. Only that’s the time you only talk to her. And this is amazing. She [01:00:30] taught me.

Payman Langroudi: That’s my I hate that that’s my bugbear. Is it? Yeah. [01:00:35] Like I want to be able to WhatsApp any member of staff at midnight. No no no no no [01:00:40] no.

Deepa Patel: That it’s in a nice way. It’s good I can do that. But what I, what [01:00:45] she doesn’t want me to do is like, you know, take work home.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What a what a good manager [01:00:50] though. One thing about corporates, though, is that the manager [01:00:55] is all powerful.

Deepa Patel: She’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, so she’s amazing. So you’re having an amazing experience [01:01:00] in Bupa? Yeah.

Deepa Patel: She is one of the best I could have in in independence. [01:01:05]

Payman Langroudi: The principle is all powerful. Yeah. So you know at the end of the day it depends on some someone’s [01:01:10] power. Yeah.

Deepa Patel: Yeah you are right. Like because I’ve worked in corporates and independent [01:01:15] that when you go in an independent you, you will not much talk to manager. It’s all about [01:01:20] the principle that is coming to you and asking a lot of things to do. You know, do this do that.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:01:25] what comes to mind, what comes to mind when I say, what’s your best lecture you’ve ever been to?

Deepa Patel: I [01:01:30] would say, uh, recently actually BDA uh, profit an occlusion. [01:01:35] It was only 45 minutes, but the way he started, he said, you [01:01:40] cannot learn occlusion in 45 minutes, but I’ll try to fit in. I love that, [01:01:45] and I think because I’m doing composites now, you know, even I see a lot [01:01:50] of patients implant from other colleagues and stuff and from my mistakes in [01:01:55] terms, not mistakes. But when you see someone coming back one or 2 or 3 times for lost filling, [01:02:00] that means there is something which you’re not really looking into. So from the occlusion lecture, [01:02:05] I realised that there are so many things, like the whole dentistry around the occlusion. Yeah, [01:02:10] if you’re not getting occlusion right, even though you have paid or got £3,000 for implant, it’s not going [01:02:15] to it’s going to fail. So that’s the definitely one good. [01:02:20]

Payman Langroudi: Lecture that stands.

Deepa Patel: Out. I, I would love to work on more and more on that so I [01:02:25] could do more better dentistry in the other like build ups and everything better.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:02:30] what about a resource like a book, a website, a social media, something that [01:02:35] you, you know, like, stands out as far as.

Deepa Patel: Uh. So again, I [01:02:40] would be very thankful to you that you told us in the course that, you know, like, you [01:02:45] have your own social media stuff. I didn’t have before. That’s the day when I started. [01:02:50]

Payman Langroudi: When you started from.

Deepa Patel: Msn. So many smile makeover is one. [01:02:55]

Payman Langroudi: So interesting. You actually did it first.

Deepa Patel: Real, first real.

Payman Langroudi: I did it. Imagine, like so [01:03:00] many people were in that room who still haven’t done it, like the execution is. Yeah.

Deepa Patel: And you say [01:03:05] to me that like to us that, you know, you are afraid of other dentists, [01:03:10] not the patients. For example, if I’m putting a picture or a video or [01:03:15] something on there, I’ll be thinking more about what the perfect dentist will talk about. Like, [01:03:20] this is rubbish. You know what you’re doing. There is no line angle on your what?

Payman Langroudi: You understand this?

Deepa Patel: This is what [01:03:25] I mean. So this was taking the things back to me, but now I’m like, I’m not really, you know, bothered. [01:03:30]

Payman Langroudi: I just imagine if you were the top dentist in the UK. Yeah. The top dentist in the UK [01:03:35] is not the top dentist in the world. No. Maybe.

Deepa Patel: No. There is always.

Payman Langroudi: Someone that cat has to [01:03:40] worry about. Some guy in Brazil looking at his work. I agree. So we all have that in the end. Every every [01:03:45] dentist has got some other dentist they’re worried about. Yeah. You know, is that guy going to respect my [01:03:50] work? Yeah, but it’s not. We’re not unless you want. Unless you’re unless you’re selling to dentists. [01:03:55]

Deepa Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Then you don’t need to worry. About what the dentist and I like. I like you. I [01:04:00] was on your page, actually. I like the fact that there’s just so many reviews in there. Just like every every third post [01:04:05] is a review.

Deepa Patel: Yeah. So I love. Uh, so I got this idea again from a lot of my different [01:04:10] local places, like a makeover Monday. So I put my pictures from, uh, [01:04:15] Testimony Tuesday. So that’s where you see my every Tuesday there is a test.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s [01:04:20] the sort of the rhythm of your posting. I have a rhythm in posting.

Deepa Patel: I love it because then it [01:04:25] reminds me if it’s Wednesday, it reminds me that, you know, not random things. I just know, oh, Workaholic [01:04:30] Wednesday or wonderful Wednesday Wednesday. And that is.

Payman Langroudi: Actually the really cool thing about it [01:04:35] is if you then you know you need for testimony Tuesdays every every [01:04:40] month. Yeah. You need for Workaholic Wednesdays. Yeah. You could sit in one day and do all of that. Yeah. [01:04:45] You don’t have to on every Wednesday. Think of something.

Deepa Patel: No, no, no, I love I love photography [01:04:50] in general. Forget about dentistry, I love it. You know, I.

Payman Langroudi: Saw you did the course, Dinesh Patel.

Deepa Patel: Did [01:04:55] you.

Payman Langroudi: Did you enjoy.

Deepa Patel: That? Yeah, I went there, I loved it.

Payman Langroudi: I can’t persuade him to come on this podcast. [01:05:00] Isn’t it funny? Like some people, some people contact me through a PR company and say, [01:05:05] I’ll pay you to have this person on. And then other people like Dinesh.

Deepa Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Can’t [01:05:10] get him on. He doesn’t want to. Doesn’t want to talk about himself.

Deepa Patel: He’s very nice.

Payman Langroudi: He’s sweet. He’s he’s.

Deepa Patel: Very [01:05:15] sweet. And I would say because I love photography and he works for Bupa as well. So he was very good. [01:05:20] And so again like Transformation Thursday or [01:05:25] you know, thriving Thursday. Fantastic Friday is my favourite because Friday I’m Friday.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:05:30] what happens on the fantastic Friday.

Deepa Patel: It just we we chill. Friday is my [01:05:35] private day anyways, so the nurses love it because Wednesday is my NHS day so they [01:05:40] are literally on their toes all the time. Whereas the Friday is so nice and because it’s [01:05:45] longer appointments and I love this. We recently started doing this before I had a mixed [01:05:50] things and it was really stressful. You know, like for example, if you’re getting your cameras [01:05:55] out, you know, your loops, a lot of things. So when my private is all one day and [01:06:00] you know what you’re doing, your, your your mind is ready for that. So Wednesday [01:06:05] I know is going to be busy day. So we prepared that in our head like a lot of emergency whatever. [01:06:10] So it’s just.

Payman Langroudi: Like you love the variety.

Deepa Patel: I love it.

Payman Langroudi: Because if it [01:06:15] was me, I would want Friday every day.

Deepa Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know what I mean? I you know, [01:06:20] it sounds Friday to me out of that lot. Friday sounds like the best day.

Deepa Patel: But I [01:06:25] have I think Friday is a day when a lot of people I have patients, they work Monday to Thursday in [01:06:30] London. On Friday is the day when they only can do so. I actually had a lot of patients from my colleague. [01:06:35] They didn’t check ups and they’re doing treatment with me on Friday because I’m the only one who is available on that day. [01:06:40] So it’s again how you look for your inner opportunities, opportunities and [01:06:45] stuff. And yeah, I think I love it. I think it’s [01:06:50] just overall I love dentistry and I love this.

Payman Langroudi: So what if there [01:06:55] were no time or money constraints? What would be a course you would jump into? [01:07:00] Like what? More occlusion? Maybe Frank spear, [01:07:05] John Kois those ones in America. The big, the big mouth.

Deepa Patel: I would love to travel [01:07:10] like a dentist. The dentist they do like, do they go all over? Now, [01:07:15] the dentistry is not just UK or India or, you know, it’s all over. It’s global.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:07:20] is there a course that you would jump into if you had nothing else to do?

Deepa Patel: More Invisalign? Oh, yeah, [01:07:25] because that’s what I just started. You know, until you do it, you don’t know whether you can [01:07:30] do it. And I’ve just done a liner course as well.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s with Rampton and his brother. Yeah, yeah. [01:07:35] Good course was on that. My wife was on that. Yeah.

Deepa Patel: They both I think uh, [01:07:40] to me any course doesn’t matter. You know who’s delivering or anything. There [01:07:45] are so many good courses these days if you see like for example, if I want to do online course, I have [01:07:50] so many varieties, it’s not like one online course is going on at the moment the way it is.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a lot [01:07:55] going on.

Deepa Patel: A lot of and I would say, I wouldn’t say that this one is best and this one is not, because [01:08:00] everyone is delivering the almost same principle. It’s all about how much you say, [01:08:05] like MSM, I was all the time, you know, trying to take for it. Yeah, yeah, go [01:08:10] for it.

Payman Langroudi: So we should come back.

Deepa Patel: You. I’m coming.

Payman Langroudi: Oh you win.

Deepa Patel: I’m coming. September.

Payman Langroudi: London. [01:08:15]

Deepa Patel: I’m taking two days off. Brilliant. So I’ll be there.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant.

Deepa Patel: So I think again [01:08:20] with the MSM, I learned a lot of things. But I think again, [01:08:25] you forget over the time.

Payman Langroudi: Repetition is important too.

Deepa Patel: And I love this about. [01:08:30] This is what I didn’t know until I did MSM that I can come back. But when I saw the people sitting next [01:08:35] to you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Deepa Patel: Yeah. Like why are they sitting? Then I understood that, you know, you can go back. And I [01:08:40] think.

Payman Langroudi: We gave that enlightened kit. Did you use it? Yes, yes. And did [01:08:45] you then continue with enlightened or. No.

Deepa Patel: So we’re trying to get the things in our practice as [01:08:50] well. But a lot of practices, they’re already doing it. And that’s the one thing we so we got in contact with everybody [01:08:55] in here as well that we want to do more. Because again I want to not just say okay, [01:09:00] you want this one, two, three options for patients. Tell them the what is the advantage and [01:09:05] let them choose give give all the varieties. So with the same with the Invisalign onlays. [01:09:10] And this is why I want to go as many as courses I could do if the time [01:09:15] and money not constant. But I think a lot of people think that going on the course and paying [01:09:20] money is not the good investment, but to me it’s the best investment.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the one [01:09:25] thing, the sort of the health warning I would put on it is it’s not the end. It’s the beginning. [01:09:30] You know, like if you went on this liner course. Yeah, that’s not the end of your liner [01:09:35] journey, like, you know, or if you come on MSM, you’re gonna have to practice, practice [01:09:40] and.

Deepa Patel: Put the knowledge you take on that day.

Payman Langroudi: To practice.

Deepa Patel: Yeah, implement onto [01:09:45] your routine. And if you don’t do that, then you actually that’s those people actually feel [01:09:50] that it was a waste of time and money. But for people who really take the things and my friends [01:09:55] coming as well, MSM. So that’s why I’m joining them. So it’ll be nice. This is how I like. [01:10:00]

Payman Langroudi: The dinner as well. Make sure you come for the dinner.

Deepa Patel: Yeah, it’s a networking.

Payman Langroudi: A massive pleasure having [01:10:05] you. I really enjoyed it.

Deepa Patel: I love it, I will just say the last thing is, um, I do a lot of gratitude [01:10:10] practice. Gratitude practice?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So I [01:10:15] spell it out every day.

Deepa Patel: Yes. I write ten gratitude a day in the morning first [01:10:20] thing. And that really helps me to look the positive things throughout the day. So [01:10:25] being a perfect you, the way I do is look negative a lot around me, but [01:10:30] that was not helping me because, you know, I just become upset and angry and everything. Now, [01:10:35] I started writing gratitude for the last three years, ten in the morning. So it’s all about [01:10:40] trying to see good in you, good in everything, good in the course, everywhere. Just good. [01:10:45] Yeah, yeah. You have negative, but you’re not looking into.

Payman Langroudi: Also, I’ve found the best [01:10:50] way to get through a difficult time in your life. The only way actually, it’s only [01:10:55] only way. The only way to get through something difficult, whatever the difficulty is, is [01:11:00] to look at the gratitude side.

Deepa Patel: Being being grateful. Being thankful is not harmful at all. [01:11:05] And my kids, they do gratitude practice with me.

Payman Langroudi: Really? Really.

Deepa Patel: So they say, thank you mommy. [01:11:10] You know, for this as a thank you is the word we use most of the time. And even my nurses, [01:11:15] my patients all the time, just being thankful for everything what I have in [01:11:20] my life. And that’s probably one of the reasons for my happiness. You know, the way I [01:11:25] live my life is all about even difficult situations, difficult problems, even [01:11:30] difficult patients. I actually write down on my list every day that thank you, thank [01:11:35] you, thank you. My all patients are happy. I finish everything on time and I [01:11:40] had a great day. So that’s my start of the day. So that’s my imagination, my manifestation, [01:11:45] my inner positivity before even I start.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got brilliant outlook, man. [01:11:50] You’ve got brilliant outlook because I keep on trying to take you to negative places and you just won’t do it. You [01:11:55] will not do it. It’s just it’s. And I think that’s the thing I’ve learned the most from talking [01:12:00] to you like that, you know, like irrepressible positivity, but so important. [01:12:05]

Deepa Patel: Don’t you think, that, you know, when you have a difficult time, you, I’m sure you had in your life and you [01:12:10] would probably have it. But if you think positive about the things, the things [01:12:15] the situation is same. The people are the same, the patients are the same. Yeah. The only thing [01:12:20] I’m changing is myself. The way I look at. Yeah, yeah. And I’m taking 100% responsibility [01:12:25] of everything. I’m not blaming nurse. I’m not blaming manager. I’m not blaming patient. I’m [01:12:30] just thinking, how could I be better than yesterday? You know, from yesterday I [01:12:35] was something wrong, 10% wrong. How could I rectify that 10%? No others. [01:12:40] If I focus on others, I’ll be really upset.

Payman Langroudi: I think I’m going to look at [01:12:45] the silent retreat as well. It’s funny because I’ve asked loads of people about that. I’ve got loads of friends [01:12:50] who’ve been on it, but and I never thought it was something I want to do. But the way you explained it, that [01:12:55] sounds really.

Deepa Patel: Good. It’s a life changing experience for me for sure. And I’m going serving [01:13:00] again. I’m going to serving again so you can serve only when you have done ten days.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? [01:13:05]

Deepa Patel: And you cannot donate until you have done it.

Payman Langroudi: Nice.

Deepa Patel: So if you have £1 million, you say, I [01:13:10] want to contribute in other people. You can’t. You have to go through that [01:13:15] ten days. Know yourself first in coming to that stage where [01:13:20] you can actually help others. And that’s my motive Like I want to be remembered. [01:13:25] Like, you know, happy, helpful, positive person rather than miserable. [01:13:30]

Payman Langroudi: You’re not miserable. I’ll tell you that. It’s been a [01:13:35] massive pleasure. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you so.

Deepa Patel: Much for having me.

[VOICE]: This [01:13:40] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one [01:13:45] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:13:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:13:55] for listening guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And [01:14:00] just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to [01:14:05] say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If [01:14:10] you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share [01:14:15] this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so so much for listening. Thanks. [01:14:20]

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by enlighten. Recently, one of the groups did a survey to understand [00:00:05] what is the most profitable thing that they can do in their Dental chair. Enlighten came in as a second most profitable [00:00:10] thing, coming in at £900 per hour. So if your Dental chair is busy, [00:00:15] it should be busy doing things like enlighten. Come and join us on Enlighten Online Training to [00:00:20] fully understand how to do the process, how to talk to patients about it. Deliver brilliant results [00:00:25] every time. Enlighten online training comm.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [00:00:40] in dentistry. Your hosts [00:00:45] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great [00:00:50] pleasure to welcome Doctor Adeel Ali onto the podcast. Adeel is a very accomplished [00:00:55] implantologist um, multiple practice owner here and there, [00:01:00] buying and selling practices. Recently moved to Qatar. That’s right. Also [00:01:05] teacher. Mentor. Author. You do a lot. Dude.

Adeel Ali: You’re [00:01:10] making me blush, man. I’ve never thought of it like that. But you.

Payman Langroudi: Do do.

Adeel Ali: A lot. Yeah, just. Just done a little bit in the [00:01:15] seven years of being dentist. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have you always been that gap?

Adeel Ali: Like, [00:01:20] I’ve always been hard working. Hard work? I mean, that’s one thing that I’ve always [00:01:25] sort of focussed on. You know, I was never gifted with clinical skills. I’ll be very honest with you, but I’ve [00:01:30] just always had a relentless attitude to working hard. It’s in my DNA. I think [00:01:35] I’ve got it from my father, to be honest with you. He was in retail for 40 years and, you [00:01:40] know, didn’t see him much. Woke up at 5 a.m., got home late.

Payman Langroudi: Did he have his own [00:01:45] shop?

Adeel Ali: No, he didn’t have his own shop. So he worked for. He’s been he’s worked in sort of Wickes, Asda, [00:01:50] uh, Booker, cash and carry, that sort of thing. So I just, I just from a young age just saw my [00:01:55] dad working really hard and I thought that that’s that’s what I want to be like. Just, you know, he’s he’s ingrained [00:02:00] that into me that, you know, work ethic trumps everything.

Payman Langroudi: It really does.

Adeel Ali: It does. [00:02:05] It does. You know, especially if you’re not clinically gifted like me. You know, just [00:02:10] just work at it.

Payman Langroudi: Do you mean that you’re not? I mean, do you really mean that?

Adeel Ali: I honestly, I really mean [00:02:15] that because, I mean, in when I went to university, I was, you know, when it came [00:02:20] to clinical skills, working on phantom heads, I used to feel a lot of pressure. You know, I had [00:02:25] good friends, all my friends and colleagues that, you know, could really.

Payman Langroudi: You were picking them up slower than the others.

Adeel Ali: I was [00:02:30] picking up, you know, really slow. You know, everybody’s good with a flat plastic and composite. I just really struggled [00:02:35] at it. Um, it was only until my fourth year when I met a really good clinical tutor of mine. I mentioned [00:02:40] it in the book as well, Doctor Heaton, he sort of sat me down and just really empowered me, you [00:02:45] know, really giving me that pep talk. And sometimes he didn’t say anything profound, but he just believed in [00:02:50] me as a person, what I could do. And then I think I started to pick up a momentum from about fourth year, and [00:02:55] it was only probably until I qualified and met my first mentor. Uh, [00:03:00] PhD plus one, my first job. That’s when things really started to [00:03:05] to pick up for me.

Payman Langroudi: I see that sometimes here with some, some people are better in institutions. [00:03:10] Yeah, like my brother loves school. Loved university. Terrible at work. [00:03:15] Doesn’t like work constantly. You know, for the last 30 years, he’s been making the same complaints about work. Yeah, [00:03:20] but institutionalised in that sense. My brother’s kind of guy. He likes rules.

Adeel Ali: Rules [00:03:25] and regs.

Payman Langroudi: He likes rules, whereas I’m the opposite.

Adeel Ali: I agree, I’m a little bit like you.

Payman Langroudi: Totally. [00:03:30] And so does people like me and you. Sometimes we struggle through school and university, but. But we love the [00:03:35] world of work. Absolutely. Much more. And I find in work you can make a bigger difference [00:03:40] to yourself. Absolutely. By by by just your actions.

Adeel Ali: Absolutely. [00:03:45] And I think, I think working as a young, uh, young adult as well [00:03:50] really helps outside of dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Did you do that?

Adeel Ali: Yeah, yeah. So my first job was in a lady’s [00:03:55] shoe shoe store. That’s where I learned sales.

Payman Langroudi: Like Oxford Street or something.

Adeel Ali: No no no no no, [00:04:00] not as prime as that. It was north London wood green. Oh, really? Yeah. Really [00:04:05] handling some really difficult customers, you know. So I used to work on the shop floor as a 16 year old getting paid, [00:04:10] what, £3, 20 an hour.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve noticed that pattern too, when people sitting where you’re sitting. Yeah, a [00:04:15] lot of the most successful ones used to work when they were kids.

Adeel Ali: You just learned the value of money. And, [00:04:20] you know, I’ve said to my.

Payman Langroudi: Kids, work.

Adeel Ali: Well, I was just going to come on to that because I’ve said, my my son [00:04:25] loves Nando’s and he’s 14 now. So when he when he gets an opportunity to work when he’s 16. [00:04:30] So you’re going to work at Nando’s and you’re gonna learn to service people. You’re going to learn to service your [00:04:35] oldest. He’s my eldest. Yeah. That’s right. So I’ve got I’ve got three children. He’s the oldest. And I’ve [00:04:40] said to him, you’re going to learn to service people. You’re going to look him in the eye. When you shake somebody’s hand, you you have a firm grip. [00:04:45] And just these are cardinal principles, you know, that you need as an individual [00:04:50] to be very, very successful. I don’t mind what they do in their life, but they know they need to know how to network [00:04:55] with people, how to be confident, and how to have a presence about them for sure. [00:05:00]

Payman Langroudi: See, I did. My parents made me go to Oxford Street and get a job when I was around 16 or 17, and [00:05:05] they were absolutely right to do that because I was a spoilt kid, probably spoilt, [00:05:10] and I only stuck at the job for a couple of weeks. Yeah. Um, over a summer holiday. [00:05:15] Um, but I think back on those two weeks and think I learned [00:05:20] more in those two weeks than I learned in the whole of school, because you just the number of different people [00:05:25] you meet.

Adeel Ali: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: But I didn’t manage to get my son to [00:05:30] do. My son’s just done his A-levels. 18 and, um, it was always a [00:05:35] question of should he focus on studies or should he focus on on work. He’s very good at school. [00:05:40] And um, also another failure on [00:05:45] my part doesn’t need money. Yeah. And something that I found out [00:05:50] the people who had jobs here. The real driver wasn’t their parents saying, go [00:05:55] work like me. The real driver was they want to buy an Xbox or something and they didn’t have the money. [00:06:00] So that’s how they got the money.

Adeel Ali: Well, well, this is it, I think. I think we’re probably in the same boat here. It’s [00:06:05] a challenge. You know, look, my my kids have never been to a, uh, [00:06:10] other than a five star hotel. I’ll be very honest with you about it. And how do you instil that work ethic? [00:06:15] And then when they probably don’t really need it. I mean, I came from a position of very humble beginnings. You [00:06:20] know, I saw my dad, my mom and dad whenever they argue, most of the time it was about money, always about [00:06:25] money. I remember my dad, you know, shouting at the electric, you know, electricity company, water [00:06:30] company. Why is they build this much? And that just still rings in my head today. I remember one day, you know, [00:06:35] a guy comes in, I didn’t know who he was. He just went under the stairs, opened the cupboard, and he just switched something off and the [00:06:40] electricity was off. Do you see what I mean? So I just had a phobia of. I just didn’t want that life. [00:06:45] So for me, it came from the I’ve got to work hard because I just don’t want financial problems. [00:06:50] But we do.

Payman Langroudi: Do you not budget? I mean, like some people pull that off too. Yeah. Yeah. Extremely [00:06:55] rich people, but they budget the kid very tightly. So the kid understands money. [00:07:00] Now, not that I’m crazy buying my kids everything, you know, under the sun, but [00:07:05] they want something. It just tends to appear from Amazon. And it’s not. It’s not like. [00:07:10] It’s not like they’ve budgeted for it. And I’ve made a mistake there. I’ve made a mistake.

Adeel Ali: I just think you’re normal. [00:07:15] And it’s just about being real. You know, I’ve got all these intentions of, you know, putting a budget in place, but, you know, have you [00:07:20] heard of this Gohenry card thing?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. They’ve got it.

Adeel Ali: They’ve got it. Yeah. And then, [00:07:25] um, I’ll get something pinged on my NatWest app and then I’m shouting, oh, what have you ordered? It’s [00:07:30] probably a fortnight.

Payman Langroudi: I didn’t even realise I’d made this mistake until [00:07:35] one day I bought a car vacuum cleaner. I thought, that’s [00:07:40] a good idea. Car vacuum cleaner. It arrived. I was going to go try it out. And [00:07:45] I thought, wait a minute. This is the opportunity, isn’t it? Get the kids to do it. So they were both sitting there on their [00:07:50] phones and I said, I’m paying £5 to anyone who goes and vacuums [00:07:55] my car. They didn’t even look up from their phones. So then I was like [00:08:00] £10 and now we’re getting down to like £65.

Adeel Ali: No one on [00:08:05] the phone.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I know, and I realised I would have done it for £65 now. Yeah.

Adeel Ali: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:08:10] so they just don’t need cash. My kids. And so I’m going to try. My daughter’s 15. I’m going to try now. [00:08:15] Yeah. To instil budget.

Adeel Ali: I’m just I’m just hoping that they they get [00:08:20] a job. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Like, there’s got to be some sort of, like, reason to get that job. Right.

Adeel Ali: Well, [00:08:25] the thing is, you know, if they don’t like it, it’s going to be for me. It’s going to be tough luck. You’ve got to work at least [00:08:30] one day a week. Then you understand the value of money, how hard it is to earn, you [00:08:35] know, six, seven, £10 an hour and how easy it is to spend. I think that’s the only real way [00:08:40] they’re going to learn when they develop the value, you know? But I’m pretty I’m pretty strict with my kids [00:08:45] in terms of physical exercise. You know, we live in Qatar now. So they’ve got, you know, we’ve got a little bit more flexibility. [00:08:50] But you know, when we go to work in the summer holidays, you know, so make sure you do your half an hour run. Make sure you’re [00:08:55] doing 100 press ups 100 sit ups. You know, just trying to instil instil that.

Payman Langroudi: The oldest is 14.

Adeel Ali: And [00:09:00] then then we’ve got, I’ve got uh, a 11 year old girl and then my [00:09:05] princess, five year old.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s it’s hard.

Adeel Ali: To it’s hard man. You’ve got to have good, good [00:09:10] family dynamics. Just I think I attribute a lot to my wife as well. She’s been relentless in supporting me in my [00:09:15] Dental career. But being, you know, a great mother and supporting with the business as [00:09:20] well, I think, you know, for, for women, um, they’ve just got wear so many hats, [00:09:25] you know, it’s easy. I mean, it’s to be honest, people still do it. How have you done it? I was like, you know [00:09:30] what? I’ve just worked hard, but I haven’t had to think about multiple things. I’ve just had a really strong, [00:09:35] very, extremely supportive wife that supported me but hasn’t neglected the family [00:09:40] roles and upbringing of the children and so forth. So family dynamics. And I talk to my mentees a lot about [00:09:45] this is so key. You know, I usually I had a I had a mentee of mine, [00:09:50] um, showed me an x ray. You know, said, oh, look, doc, I’ve done these implants. What do you think about positions [00:09:55] and things? I said, yeah, it looks good, but what’s your relationship with your wife? At the moment? I’m more interested [00:10:00] in the family dynamics, you know, because as, as part of mentorship, it’s just not about [00:10:05] this transactional relationship where we’re just talking about clinical. I want to know about, you know, your wife, [00:10:10] how’s your relationship with your kids? Because certainly my mentor did that for me. And I think that’s one of [00:10:15] the gripes I have about mentorship. You know, it’s just what we see now is just like sort of [00:10:20] a clinical relationship. But we I like to go deep with my mentees. Yeah, 100%, [00:10:25] 100%.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, in order to to achieve what you’ve achieved, there [00:10:30] must have been a degree of sacrifice.

Adeel Ali: 100%.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re saying you [00:10:35] that sacrifice wasn’t with family. So where was the sacrifice? I mean, you’re you’re clearly looking [00:10:40] after yourself now.

Adeel Ali: No, I did sacrifice time with the kids. [00:10:45] Did you? But. But it’s how my wife explained it to [00:10:50] the children, right? Papa’s gone. He’s working hard. Why is he working hard? He’s working hard. So [00:10:55] you can go to school. You can go to private school. You can have food, you know. Papa, you know, takes [00:11:00] care of the bills. He does this so the kids have got a good image of their [00:11:05] father. That’s. That’s key, you know? Um. So do I regret not spending [00:11:10] time with the kids? I think a lot of people do. I don’t because I had no choice. It’s either we do this or we [00:11:15] don’t. Do you see what I mean? So, you know, I haven’t spent much time with the kids as they were growing up. I [00:11:20] have no regrets about it. I’ll be very honest about it because it’s either, you know, you either sink or swim. [00:11:25] You know, I haven’t had anything handed out, so you’ve got to work.

Payman Langroudi: Plus plus they learn by osmosis as well. Yeah, just [00:11:30] like you learn from your dad. Yeah, exactly. Like no one sat down and had to explain to you that dad has to be at work. He [00:11:35] just did it. Yeah, he just did it. But. But what I’m saying is, often in your situation, [00:11:40] you know, implant work, you have to prepare the surgery. You have to. You have to be there early and [00:11:45] then you’re staying there late. Yeah. So were there times where you weren’t seeing your kids during [00:11:50] the week, like literally leaving.

Adeel Ali: The house to drive? I mean, when I was working for corporate, I used to I lived [00:11:55] in north London, so I used to drive from north London to Southend on Sea.

Payman Langroudi: Oh [00:12:00] my God. Yeah.

Adeel Ali: Oh yeah. That does I did that for ten years. Yeah. Wow. And then from Southend to Sea to do evening shift [00:12:05] in my first squad that I had in Wapping near Canary Wharf. And [00:12:10] then from there I used to come home so he’d come home at 11. So I did that. And then I used to work in Norfolk, [00:12:15] Norfolk two days back to back. So I used to drive there 2.5 hours, [00:12:20] then do a full day of implants, then drive back 2.5 hours.

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t stay the night.

Adeel Ali: Sometimes you used to stay the [00:12:25] night, but sometimes you used to miss the family, you know? No, but, you know, sometimes staying the night [00:12:30] in a dusty old B&B that gets you even more depressed. I said, you know, screw that. I’m going to drive back [00:12:35] home, you know, back aching. And then what comes with that is bad lifestyle choices when it comes to [00:12:40] food. Yeah. So they used to be McDonald’s. Uh, drive thru, just fillet [00:12:45] burger. You know how it is. Yeah, yeah. And, uh, you know, you do that for five, six years, and that takes a toll on you [00:12:50] as well. So, um, so, yeah, there’s been huge sacrifices, but, uh, I’m [00:12:55] very grateful to God that he gave me these opportunities that I’ve had. And, [00:13:00] yeah, I haven’t spent as much time with the family, but the family understood what we’re trying [00:13:05] to do here, and which gave me the opportunity to to build the practice of my dreams. Now, I [00:13:10] kind of look at it, you know, I’m not comparing myself to David Beckham, but you know that him, his wife and [00:13:15] his children are all in sync. And as a family, they’re moving forward. And, you know, we try [00:13:20] and we try and think of us like this. Teamwork, teamwork. The kids are on. They know that [00:13:25] mom and dad are driving. And like you said, through osmosis that they’re seeing this. And [00:13:30] they say, you know what? Because I want them to to be inspired by us. I don’t want them to look at x, y, and Z. I say, this is what [00:13:35] your mom and dad are doing. You’re not just in the in the business domain, but in terms of, [00:13:40] um, you know, integrity, credibility, how we deal with people, you know, I want them to look up to us. So [00:13:45] it’s Team Ali.

Payman Langroudi: How old were you when you had your first kid?

Adeel Ali: 26. [00:13:50]

Payman Langroudi: So is there, like, left over me time? [00:13:55] You haven’t done.

Adeel Ali: With my wife?

Payman Langroudi: Just you. Just you, like, like [00:14:00] 26 is very young for the first kid.

Adeel Ali: Married at 24.

Payman Langroudi: So you came out, then scored. Married.

Adeel Ali: Married? [00:14:05] Yeah. So 26. Had my first one. 28. Had my second one.

Payman Langroudi: So was that on [00:14:10] purpose?

Adeel Ali: Like on purpose.

Payman Langroudi: You sort of fall into that or was that decide decide you were going [00:14:15] to get married.

Adeel Ali: Do you know what I just wanted? If I could, I’d probably do it again. [00:14:20] Um, because I’ve been very family oriented and I wanted to be a young dad.

Payman Langroudi: Why?

Adeel Ali: I [00:14:25] just wanted to grow with my kids. I wanted to be that cool, dad, you know? You know, I [00:14:30] do get a kick out of you. I still say to my kids, you know, I’m probably the toughest dad, you know, out of your mates, you [00:14:35] know, or, you know, like, I just. I always wanted to be a young dad growing with my kids. [00:14:40] Um, I’ve actually said to my eldest, you know, when you turn 20, I’ll be 46 and we’re going [00:14:45] to have a muay Thai sparring match, and I’m going, I said, you better get prepared because I’m preparing myself from [00:14:50] now. You know I’m not. The gloves are going to be on. I’m going to go all out. So he’s he knows that [00:14:55] at the back of his head.

Payman Langroudi: So I’m curious about that because I was the opposite. I was I was definitely [00:15:00] didn’t want to do that.

Adeel Ali: As in didn’t want to do the.

Payman Langroudi: Like have kids, young kids, young. I [00:15:05] wanted to have kids as late as possible, as.

Adeel Ali: Late as.

Payman Langroudi: Possible. Because it’s interesting. I thought that, you know, you’ve got to enjoy [00:15:10] your life before kids come along. Yeah. And then, you know, once kids come along, it’s all over. It’s [00:15:15] all. Do you know, that was the feeling I had in my head?

Adeel Ali: Yeah, I think I think you can do it with kids. I can do. And for me, I [00:15:20] just wanted to excel in every domain in my life. So, look, I wanted [00:15:25] to grow as an implantologist. I wanted to grow in business, but I wanted I didn’t want to. I wanted to grow the family as well. I just [00:15:30] wanted to move all the chips.

Payman Langroudi: At the same time. You didn’t want to grow as a single man.

Adeel Ali: Didn’t want [00:15:35] to grow as a single.

Payman Langroudi: Man. So you see what I mean? You chose. You chose where you wanted to go.

Adeel Ali: I knew this journey is going to be [00:15:40] tough in implant. And I needed my right hand person, which is my wife. I needed a good wife [00:15:45] because, you know, for me, um, you know, for me, it’s different [00:15:50] between having a partner and a and a wife that is there 24 over seven. You live and breathe every [00:15:55] day together, especially in this journey of implantology. It’s all, you know, glamour and [00:16:00] glitz that a deal is doing. This implant has a practice, I tell you, the conversations we’ve had at night when it’s just me and her [00:16:05] in the bed talking stress litigation. You [00:16:10] you need that.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a lot of. Yeah. Yeah, there’s a lot of I mean for you you have to constantly [00:16:15] worry if one of your mentees is messing up. Oh, mate. Yeah. Like people underestimate [00:16:20] the level of, like, background stress that that is like, if you’ve done a hundred [00:16:25] full arch cases this year, that’s a hundred what ifs.

Adeel Ali: What ifs. [00:16:30]

Payman Langroudi: Just there.

Adeel Ali: And remember, just.

Payman Langroudi: With.

Adeel Ali: Your patients in the country anymore. So I’m relying on x rays and things. But and you [00:16:35] know, when I go in for reviews, I’ve had to call some. I’m very tough. I’m very, very tough on my mentees [00:16:40] because. But they know I’m coming from a place of respect because I, I say to them, do you want me to treat you like [00:16:45] a mediocre so? Or do you want me to treat you like a high performer? Choose [00:16:50] a deal. I want you to treat me like a high performer. Then I just I just go in there and I said, that’s [00:16:55] wrong. That’s wrong. Why have you done this? You know, I had one one of my, um, one of my mentees [00:17:00] recently. He was doing a full arch, but he wanted to keep one of the molars. Fine. [00:17:05] Um, I reviewed the patient, and the molars still had caries in it. I [00:17:10] said, that is just totally unacceptable to me. And what it what it. And I spoke to him about it, [00:17:15] and I said, I know why you’re probably really tired. [00:17:20] Um, and he goes, yeah, but he needed a root canal. But I’ve, I’ve, [00:17:25] I’ve sort of made a judgement about you and your character just from that, that [00:17:30] you’re not going willing to go the extra mile.

Payman Langroudi: Attention to detail.

Adeel Ali: Attention to detail. Can [00:17:35] you see? I said to him. Can you see the impression that you’re giving me here? And I just [00:17:40] made him accountable for it. And now. But that’s how I am with my guys. But to succeed in [00:17:45] implantology you have, you can’t lose that sensitivity. You find a lot of implant surgeons, [00:17:50] just especially younger ones, that are getting into implantology so quick without a solid foundation [00:17:55] in restorative occlusion aesthetics. They just want to go straight into implantology and [00:18:00] they’re losing their sensitivity to to patient care to to, you know, just general dentistry. That’s dangerous. [00:18:05]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about your journey, because it doesn’t sound the kind of person who [00:18:10] struggles a little bit in dental school, doesn’t sound like the kind of person who then decide to go into implantology. [00:18:15] So you said you had a flip?

Adeel Ali: I had a flip. Yeah. So [00:18:20] with my first one.

Payman Langroudi: So.

Adeel Ali: Yeah. So I applied for a I came [00:18:25] obviously I did my VTI in Northampton and came back home and I was looking for [00:18:30] an associate job. Yeah. So, um, we used to go to BJ jobs. [00:18:35] Yeah. Yeah. Is that still about BJ?

[BOTH]: Yeah. Bj jobs? No, there was [00:18:40] there was a practice in Willesden.

Adeel Ali: And, uh, I phoned the number up and, um, [00:18:45] left a message, put the phone down. Instantly I got a phone call back [00:18:50] and the gentleman’s name was doctor. And he said, you’re the. I’ve had so many phone [00:18:55] calls, but you’re the only guy that left me a voice message. Why should I hire you? I [00:19:00] was like, well, I don’t have much skill, but I’ll outwork anyone. That’s all I said. [00:19:05] He said, come into the practice tomorrow. So I went there, he showed me around and he took me to [00:19:10] the cafe next door. He opened up his laptop. Then he started to show me the implant work [00:19:15] that he does. Here’s a sinus lift. This is a block graft. All [00:19:20] of his cases. This is a nerve repositioning. I was I was bamboozled, I said, I’ve is this [00:19:25] dentistry? What is this? So I just got sucked into him.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. But if [00:19:30] if I’m projecting backwards to my own, if that had happened to me, I would have seen that [00:19:35] stuff and gone, oh, shit. Like like, you know, because the idea of I didn’t like [00:19:40] blood at all. Yeah. Yeah. Not even a surgical extraction.

Adeel Ali: I think I think my mum and my mum summed it up very, [00:19:45] very well. She said, you know, I’ve got an older brother and she said, you know Shariq [00:19:50] who’s my older brother, if there was a puddle, he would walk around the puddle. A deal would jump two [00:19:55] foot in.

Payman Langroudi: To that kind of all or nothing, all in person.

Adeel Ali: All in. I am [00:20:00] always all in.

Payman Langroudi: So you saw that and you decided almost there and then decided this is the kind of thing I want to [00:20:05] do. I mean, how interesting.

Adeel Ali: I mean, I’ve always been all in and I play risk. I mean, one of [00:20:10] my good friends, uh, he’s always said to me, man, you just know how to execute.

[BOTH]: I [00:20:15] love.

Payman Langroudi: That guy. I love that guy. I love I love that guy. I don’t know why.

Adeel Ali: I [00:20:20] mentioned him in the book as well, but we I mean, he runs the Implant Growth Academy with me [00:20:25] as well. Oh, really? I’ve got a lot of love for him. He’s just moved to Dubai.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Adeel Ali: Yeah yeah. So he’s [00:20:30] he’s a very close brother of mine. And he said there’s one thing about you, you know, I wouldn’t say I’m the most refined [00:20:35] person. I’m not a spreadsheet guy. I’m not an analytical guy. I’ll sometimes shoot from the hip, [00:20:40] but, uh, I’m, you know, if I if I think, you know, I believe in something, I’ll go [00:20:45] all in and then try and convince my wife it’s the right thing. And usually [00:20:50] when I get it wrong, I go against her.

Payman Langroudi: So I guess. What did you do? You shadowed this guy.

Adeel Ali: I shadowed this guy. [00:20:55] And the first case I saw, he was doing a consultation for a patient [00:21:00] in. In a practice in Angel. So, you know, you’re [00:21:05] speaking to the patient. He doesn’t do veneers or whatever he was going to do, and he quoted him £30,000. [00:21:10]

Payman Langroudi: Now, you’d never heard that number.

Adeel Ali: I swear to God, I was [00:21:15] I was looking at the floor. I was embarrassed to even look. I didn’t know where to look. I was looking [00:21:20] at the floor and my leg was shaking, I was shaking. I’ve never heard of [00:21:25] a figure like £30,000 before. And the guy just just said okay. [00:21:30] And he nodded his head. And then he just told the nurse to mix the alginate and started taking him.

Payman Langroudi: I want [00:21:35] to stop you there. Yeah, because these numbers seem big here. And [00:21:40] by the way, the much bigger numbers, as you know, much, much bigger numbers than 30,000 can come up. Right. Yeah. [00:21:45] And when we’re so fresh out of dental school where we were doing everything for free, then [00:21:50] we were some NHS crap for pounds 20, then maybe if you’re lucky, you were doing [00:21:55] a filling for £100 a crown. If you’re lucky, you’re doing £500. Suddenly 30,000 [00:22:00] sounds like such a big number. Who would ever pay that? But if I turn round and said to you, you know, [00:22:05] God forbid something’s up with your mum, something in any area of medicine, [00:22:10] and it will cost 30 grand to fix. You’d pay the day off tomorrow.

Adeel Ali: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:22:15] so we forget that sometimes.

Adeel Ali: We forget that. And we forget. Especially in what I’m doing with full arch dentistry. [00:22:20] You know, some patients, you know, even.

Payman Langroudi: Life changing, it’s life.

Adeel Ali: Changing. Changing? Yes. You know, um, [00:22:25] in this I was speaking to a colleague the other day and they said, you know, um, some [00:22:30] of the CEOs in America, when patients can’t afford it, they’ve got some relationships [00:22:35] with the bank where they can release their money from their house, remortgage their house, or at least 41414441401401K. [00:22:40] And that’s how [00:22:45] I think is that I said, well, think about it. You know, if my do I value bricks [00:22:50] and mortar more than my wife. If my wife needed it, you know, do I [00:22:55] you know, I’m not materialistic. You know what, bricks and mortar. If my wife is depressed or if a family member [00:23:00] is depressed, it makes sense. We should value our health. And that’s why I try and explain to my patients, you know, [00:23:05] but they know it themselves. You know, it’s worth more than your car and the holiday, your [00:23:10] house. You know, your own well-being.

Payman Langroudi: So tentative steps. You paid [00:23:15] attention. This guy said, 30 K. How did that translate to you sticking your first implant [00:23:20] in? What was the moment when you.

Adeel Ali: So yeah. So you know, I said, look, look This is the journey [00:23:25] I want to go on. I’m again. I’m all in. You’re my mentor. I think a lot of the times when people go [00:23:30] wrong, when they’ve got like ten different mentors, they just get confused. I’d rather stick with one guy. If he gets it wrong, he gets it wrong. [00:23:35]

Payman Langroudi: But he’s your boss as well.

Adeel Ali: He’s your boss as well. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: So what was what was his? Who was his mentor like? What [00:23:40] had he done to get to him? Oh, he’ll.

Adeel Ali: He’ll take him. I mean, the godfather of him. Rest [00:23:45] his rest his soul. But, um, so he told me to do five years in the NHS to [00:23:50] get my hands moving. So, you know, I got a lot of experience. And then I did [00:23:55] the Tatum course. So, you know, when you’re taught by giants like Hilt Tatum, [00:24:00] I mean, the guy invented the sinus graft procedure. And you’re learning sinus grafting procedure [00:24:05] from him. You’re just in constant or so. It kind of stemmed from that. So we used to [00:24:10] do five days back to back for a year. So it was really intense, [00:24:15] a lot of hands on training. And then having that training and then learning [00:24:20] from my mentor Vicario, you know, he was an excellent at communication skills. I mean, the [00:24:25] the best. So I just go and watch him how he’d communicate with patients and then slowly translate [00:24:30] that into into.

Payman Langroudi: The restorative skills along the way.

Adeel Ali: Oh, restorative skills I’d say crystal. [00:24:35] I did crystal.

Payman Langroudi: Oh did you, did you.

Adeel Ali: Yeah. Yeah I mean, you know, I love Crystal. Did his in 2010, [00:24:40] uh, his restorative program for a year. Um, and then I did [00:24:45] some Botox training with Bob, you know, like, like most guys do, and [00:24:50] then just really just went double down into implantology. Uh, thereafter, you know, [00:24:55] I’ve been to, um, Hungary, trained by Istvan Urban in bone grafting techniques. [00:25:00] But a lot of my training now is, um, just seeing world [00:25:05] class surgeons. You know, we’ve got some world class surgeons in this country. People like Guy MacLennan. Phenomenal [00:25:10] at making plans to spend a lot of time with him. Um, I’ve got very good friends in the States as well that I go [00:25:15] to see, uh, Juan Gonzalez, that we’re going to be running some. We’ve run a course in Brazil together, uh, [00:25:20] for, you know, zygomatic implants. You’ve got, um, just just what.

Payman Langroudi: Do you do in [00:25:25] Implantology?

Adeel Ali: What is that? Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: What don’t you do?

Adeel Ali: What don’t I.

Payman Langroudi: Do? Yeah. Like, what’s where’s your limit [00:25:30] in implantology? Do you do everything I can do?

Adeel Ali: Pretty much most procedures, but I choose I, [00:25:35] I only I choose to do the procedures that have [00:25:40] a tangible result. What I mean by that is, if I do [00:25:45] a full jaw, patients can see actually what they’ve done. Yes, I’ve had some pain and swelling, but you’ve. [00:25:50] Doc, you’ve given me a beautiful smile, so I choose to do that. I don’t tend to do very, very [00:25:55] complex grafting procedures because from a patient’s perspective, they can’t really see what’s happened, caused [00:26:00] them a lot of pain and swelling. And, you know, it’s it’s good for us to see. Yes, I’ve got a vertical bone [00:26:05] growth here. But um, for the patient it’s like, well was he really done? So [00:26:10] I just like producing tangible results. So I’ll do single implants, but most of my [00:26:15] cases are full jaw implants, especially atrophic cases where patients need like zygomatic [00:26:20] implants or pterygoid implants, that sort of thing.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re very comfortable doing both.

Adeel Ali: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. Very comfortable. [00:26:25] Very comfortable. I’ve probably done about 800 full arches, probably 8000 implants.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:26:30] zygomas and zygoma.

Adeel Ali: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: When you said on your training you were telling me this [00:26:35] tier one, tier two, tier three, tier one is a total. Like someone who’s never touched an implant.

Adeel Ali: Never [00:26:40] touched an implant.

Payman Langroudi: Just wants to.

Adeel Ali: Just see the guys with the right attitude.

Payman Langroudi: The very start, very start. We [00:26:45] get that. And does that go all the way to sticking one implant in? That’s right. Okay. And then tier two is. [00:26:50]

Adeel Ali: Hard and soft tissue grafting. So they’ll learn sinus grafting soft tissue grafting [00:26:55] around implants.

Payman Langroudi: So how how much work should you have done. How much experience in [00:27:00] implantology should you have had before you start getting into sinus graft, for instance?

Adeel Ali: I [00:27:05] would want them to, you know, there’s no hard and fast rules about it. You know, [00:27:10] I was very strict because I started teaching just full arch dentistry, a full [00:27:15] arch implantology. And I used to say, look, you have to place at least about 200 implants before you [00:27:20] can come on my course. Because, you know, I had a gut feeling that they they know how to work around the mouth, [00:27:25] they know how to raise the flat bed, etcetera, etcetera. But as time progressed, with more [00:27:30] knowledge available and younger guys getting into implantology a lot quicker, you know, and seeing [00:27:35] how quickly their their upskilling, I’ve sort of lowered that threshold. So I’ve [00:27:40] got a guy on my tier three course now he’s honestly he’s two years out.

Payman Langroudi: Now.

Adeel Ali: From [00:27:45] university. So he phoned me up and [00:27:50] I said, I’m not taking you on. I said, look, I don’t think this is right for you. He said, look, doc, I’ve done this, [00:27:55] I’ve done that. I’ve done grafting procedures. So I took him on the fly. You know, I said, look, [00:28:00] okay, come and join the course and let’s see how it goes. And I’ll tell you why. He’s probably the [00:28:05] best, of course. And it just really flipped the script in my mind. Um, because [00:28:10] obviously when I was training, there wasn’t much available. You know, I remember when I started for [00:28:15] lunch, not a lot of people were doing it. And I remember calling up different implant surgeons, [00:28:20] surgeons asking, what’s a multi-unit abutment? I’ve heard of this thing called a multi-unit abutment. What is it? Yeah. [00:28:25]

Payman Langroudi: So I don’t know.

Adeel Ali: What it is. What are you doing? It like [00:28:30] an all on four or a full arch. You know, sometimes with the with the distal implants, you have to [00:28:35] angle them at 45 degrees to avoid the sinus. Yeah, yeah. But then you need to sort of correct the angles on [00:28:40] it. So they come in like a 17 or 30 degree angle correction. I get it. So yeah. [00:28:45] So so nobody knew what it was. So that’s the sort of era I was training [00:28:50] in. But now there’s so much knowledge available. So I’ve totally sort of taken a [00:28:55] different stance on it.

Payman Langroudi: But see this, this cat you’re talking about, I’m sure he’s quite extraordinary anyway. Yeah, [00:29:00] but he hasn’t done the five years on the NHS piece.

Adeel Ali: Yeah, yeah. Well that’s it. Yeah. [00:29:05]

Payman Langroudi: So, so now if you had to give advice to, let’s just say your son was graduating [00:29:10] as, as a dentist and he says, dad, I want to be like you. I want to be an implant guy? Yeah. [00:29:15] What would be your advice? Because you have to discount. This is one thing that young dentists always ask me. [00:29:20] What should I do next? And I always give them this advice that you should always discount that whoever’s giving [00:29:25] you the advice is, number one going to tell you to do what they did. It just is just the way it is. It’s [00:29:30] the way it is, isn’t it? Just the way it is.

Adeel Ali: But you got to put your biases.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve started like, for instance, I didn’t do one day of NHS [00:29:35] after. Yeah. And I don’t see why anyone should. Yeah. But [00:29:40] loads of people are like, do your five years on the NHS. Get your experience [00:29:45] in and all of that. But but you know that bias that we have for what we did ourselves. So [00:29:50] so it’s.

Adeel Ali: Hard. It’s hard to.

Payman Langroudi: So discounting for that bias, what would you tell your son now. [00:29:55]

Adeel Ali: I’d say go and listen to Payman. No I would I.

Payman Langroudi: Would.

Adeel Ali: Say [00:30:00] look, look, I think I think what the NHS does, does just doesn’t give you [00:30:05] volume of work but builds your mental resilience. You’re dealing with a lot of patients because if you [00:30:10] want to get into this game you need resilience. I mean, you’ve got.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah but mental resilience or surgery [00:30:15] job. That’s mental resilience.

Adeel Ali: I think mental.

Payman Langroudi: Have you ever done one of those.

Adeel Ali: I haven’t done one of those. [00:30:20]

Payman Langroudi: Man. But you know.

Adeel Ali: You’re probably thinking from a clinical aspect. I’m talking from a handling [00:30:25] patient perspective.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well, 4 a.m. there’s like six people waiting with cuts in their faces. [00:30:30] You don’t know what the hell to do. Yeah.

Adeel Ali: Yeah, but I think I think in my experience, you know.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:30:35] know what you mean. Nhs is like Nam. Yeah.

Adeel Ali: It’s like. It’s like, nah, I’m going to Nam.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think there’s [00:30:40] a de-skilling in it?

Adeel Ali: Well, in working in the NHS.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Because you can’t do things [00:30:45] properly at all.

Adeel Ali: You can’t, you can’t. And I think I wouldn’t say five years, I’d say look just because [00:30:50] look you make your like I’d say to myself, you may think you want to do what I’m doing, [00:30:55] but, you know, why don’t you sort of explore different things.

Payman Langroudi: Yes, yes, yes. But [00:31:00] but the reason I’m saying it is because there’s people out there listening who want to be implantologists. Right. So [00:31:05] what’s the best way? Let’s say they’re literally like that PhD plus one like you. Yeah. They don’t have a [00:31:10] mentor, a principal who’s first thing. First thing. What should I do?

Adeel Ali: So whether you listen, whether you’re [00:31:15] doing NHS, whether you’re doing private, it’s still the early years, right? But I think you need that foundational knowledge, you know, go on a restorative [00:31:20] course, learn that and learn occlusion you need. It’s like going if you want to learn implantology, [00:31:25] it’s like going into war. You need your shield. You need your chainmail. Right. So your occlusion, your restorative is your shield, [00:31:30] your chainmail, you know, that will give you a good basis to then go on to and be.

Payman Langroudi: Able to take teeth [00:31:35] out. Right.

Adeel Ali: Take teeth out. Yes. Where are you going to get the volume of that. You’re going to get [00:31:40] it. Probably more so in an NHS practice. True, true, yeah. Uh, believe it or not, I’ve had mentees [00:31:45] wanting to learn full arch. They still can’t take teeth out. Which is. Which is worrying, you know. Um, [00:31:50] but certainly if you’re going on foundation course in Implantology, I think. What, in the, uh, [00:31:55] in the Tatum course, you know, we were taught how to do, you know, impacted wisdom teeth. We were taught how to do soft tissue [00:32:00] surgeries like frenectomy. So it did go quite far and deep, uh, into it, but [00:32:05] certainly, you know, go on. There’s a lot of oral surgery courses now as well, so I’d probably [00:32:10] add that into it as well. So restorative occlusion and learn how to do extractions well. And [00:32:15] then and then go on a course maybe you know if, if you’re, if you’re looking for [00:32:20] sort of a course in implants because there’s loads of good courses. Right. Um, [00:32:25] I.

Payman Langroudi: Mean, you know, it’s all the way from a master’s program in America. Yeah, to a weekend course. [00:32:30]

Adeel Ali: So I think I think, you know, self-reflection comes, [00:32:35] uh, probably a little bit later on in life and you kind of know who you are probably a little bit later on in life. When you’re young, [00:32:40] you’re still trying to find your way, right? Yeah. But you’ve got to sort of tap into who you are and who [00:32:45] you’re going to resonate with, because that’s going to make the biggest difference whether you’re going to succeed in this thing. True. So true. You know, if you know, I [00:32:50] could easily take a delegate if there’s if there’s no sort of bond there, are they really going [00:32:55] to sort of excel in their career. So you’ve got to sort of vet out these courses, see if you get on with the people. [00:33:00] How are they going to train you? How are they going to sort of develop you over the years? And, you know, a part of it is, [00:33:05] is is a gut feeling. You know, if you’re more academically MSC might be the best thing [00:33:10] for you, I was certain. Like, I knew who I was. I’m a guy, that’s all in. And I’m [00:33:15] very practically based. So that’s why the Tatum course with, you know, the amount of practical that you do, uh, [00:33:20] just helped me a lot. And that’s how I run my courses, you know, that’s who I am. I don’t claim [00:33:25] to, um, appeal to everyone, but if you if you’re [00:33:30] that sort of person that wants to do a lot of practical work, obviously we have an academic blend to it, [00:33:35] but want to get in there stuck in. If you if we resonate in our mentalities, then our course might be the one for [00:33:40] you, but it’s not going to appeal to everyone.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk a little bit of clinical while we’re here.

Adeel Ali: Let’s do.

Payman Langroudi: It. [00:33:45] I mean, I don’t know enough about it to ask you the right questions to you, but I do like this sort of question of [00:33:50] aha moments. Like what? At what moment did you have an aha moment around [00:33:55] any aspect that you want to talk about? Let’s start with, you know, would you tell me.

Adeel Ali: And [00:34:00] aha in implantology.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So you’ve got, you’ve got a course right. Module one is this module two is that [00:34:05] module three. There are moments in your own career like situations that you were in that [00:34:10] made you think, I’m kind of trying to get to what’s the crux? What’s the difference between a good implantologist [00:34:15] and a great implantologist outside of communication skills? I think clinically, where [00:34:20] are the bits that that sort of made you where you thought, I get it now, where [00:34:25] I didn’t get it before.

Adeel Ali: I think what some differences between and [00:34:30] I talked to my mentees about this is um, between sort of a good implant, a great [00:34:35] implant surgeon, and, and how they perform surgery. So I look at mentees from a distance, [00:34:40] and if they’re sort of if they’re working with finesse, if they’ve got the right posture, [00:34:45] if they’ve got the right positioning around the patient. And I’m really strict with my mentees about this, you know, so [00:34:50] if they’re not hunched over, I’ll tap on the shoulder to the basics. It’s so important.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:34:55] basics. You forget that sometimes.

Adeel Ali: You know, I’ve got a big stick in my practice, [00:35:00] right? And, you know, if they’re if when they’re doing surgery, I’ll just gently tap on their shoulder, relax [00:35:05] your shoulder. Change your hand grip. I don’t want to see this. I want to see. Change your hand grip. [00:35:10] Why aren’t you changing your hand grip? You know, this was drilled into us from the time course, you know. So that’s the difference between, [00:35:15] you know, good and great. You might be the clinical outcome might be similar, but I want to [00:35:20] see it with finesse.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Adeel Ali: Do you see what I mean. I want to see that, you know after doing 2 or 3 arches [00:35:25] can you still go home and, and still operate. Can you still go to a gym. Can you still be a husband and a father and [00:35:30] see what I mean? I think that’s a big part of it. Uh, for [00:35:35] me, clinically, a big aha moment. Uh, it was big to me that when I was doing sinus grafting, [00:35:40] I always used to miss out placing some bone in a particular aspect of the sinus, [00:35:45] like the anterior part. I just kept on missing it, and I and I sort of talked to my mentor [00:35:50] about it and said, you know, if you come in from if you stand at this position and [00:35:55] then if you hold the instrument this way you can get access to the anterior sinus. That [00:36:00] was the big, you know, big thing. For me. It might not be exciting to make things interesting. It’s interesting. [00:36:05] Yeah, yeah. So are we really focus on chair positioning?

Payman Langroudi: I asked Andrew Dorward this question. He’s one of my heroes. [00:36:10] Yeah. And he said when he realised 3D thinking and [00:36:15] he was saying as an implantologist, you’re constantly looking at scans and things and he’s huge in imaging [00:36:20] anyway. Yeah. And he was saying 3D thinking, isn’t there so much [00:36:25] in restorative dentistry as it is in Implantology?

Adeel Ali: And that that’s actually a big [00:36:30] one? I’ve probably that’s probably another one.

Payman Langroudi: And the other thing, you know, you said about grafts [00:36:35] and, you know, tangible results. He was saying keeping things simple [00:36:40] because often, you know, there’s that sort of ego thing that says, I’m going to do this block [00:36:45] graft, I’m going to do that. And he was saying, not as what you’re saying. He’s [00:36:50] saying from the patient perspective, the simpler the procedure, the more successful the [00:36:55] procedure is going to be. So keeping things simple.

Adeel Ali: Well, I see I see practitioners, all they do is advance [00:37:00] bone grafting.

Payman Langroudi: Overcomplicate. Overcomplicate things.

Adeel Ali: And I tried. Like you [00:37:05] said, I try and keep my. Because remember, I’m also a business owner as well. I want to keep complications down. I want patients happy. [00:37:10] Right. Yeah, I that’s why we do sort of. We rely on native bone as much as possible. [00:37:15] I don’t want to do big grafting. And we do a lot of full arch work which has a very, very high success rate, you [00:37:20] know, so we have to think about the business element of it as well.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so I asked Nilesh Palmer. Yes. [00:37:25] And I’m completely surprised. Me. I’m not I’m not an implant. Right. But he said suturing. [00:37:30] He said for him, that’s the key difference between a great implantologist and [00:37:35] a good implantologist the finesse of.

Adeel Ali: How they suture as well. So again, with, you [00:37:40] know, they can they can suture with finesse. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Finesse and how they look, you know, [00:37:45] so when somebody’s watching me, it’s like, you know, how did he have his shoulder position. How did he have his elbow position. [00:37:50] What. How was he changing his hand grip without even looking at his hands? You know that [00:37:55] these are the levels that we want. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We go we [00:38:00] go quite deep into it, you know.

Payman Langroudi: How about we like to talk about mistakes? I like to, while [00:38:05] we’re here, let’s talk about mistakes. Like what mistakes did you make in Implantology? But let’s start Implantology. [00:38:10] Where did you make a mistake? Where you learned from it, and you’re never going to make that mistake again?

Adeel Ali: Yeah. [00:38:15] I mean, talking about suturing, um, I was doing a case recently, and, [00:38:20] you know, there’s there’s there’s something called a continuous locking suture and just [00:38:25] just a continuous suture. And this patient was medically compromised. We’re doing a [00:38:30] full arch on him. I spoke to my, um, anaesthetist as well, so we always discuss cases before. And anaesthetists [00:38:35] actually speak to the patient as well as heels on clopidogrel. So I did a full arch on him. Sutured [00:38:40] him up really well. No, no bleeding post-op. Fitted the bridge. So [00:38:45] we did that on a the surgery on [00:38:50] a Saturday or a Sunday or something like that. Um, four [00:38:55] days later he started bleeding.

Payman Langroudi: Four days later.

Adeel Ali: Four days later. [00:39:00] Can you believe it? Four days later, he started bleeding.

Payman Langroudi: Had you stopped the clopidogrel and then started it again? No. [00:39:05]

Adeel Ali: Because we. It was a sort of risk benefit situation here. You know, he had a heart. [00:39:10] He’s had a heart attack.

Payman Langroudi: So he didn’t stop it at all.

Adeel Ali: I didn’t stop it. You know, sometimes we stop it, sometimes we don’t. But we [00:39:15] felt in this case, we should keep the patient on. And we’d warn them that you could probably, you know, bruise a lot more, make [00:39:20] sure we had watertight closure on the suturing. Four days later, he started to bleed. And, um. [00:39:25] I’m in Qatar now. I get a phone call 1:00 in the morning saying that [00:39:30] the paramedics are there. Yeah, paramedics. And I’m totally dazed. I [00:39:35] was like, you know, the paramedics had no idea what to do. I was telling paramedics what you need [00:39:40] to do. You need to take maxfax and get some sutures and, you know, and, [00:39:45] um, when Maxfax came home again, still bleeding, and, [00:39:50] um, referred him to one of my colleagues, they went to the colleague. [00:39:55] I’m doing this from abroad now.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Adeel Ali: And um went to my colleague. He said [00:40:00] it was fine. He he phones me. Yep. Everything’s fine. He goes back home, starts bleeding [00:40:05] again. And uh, you know, then I got one of my other colleagues to see him that evening. [00:40:10] Just take the bridge off, researched him up. But, um, you know, he needed a blood [00:40:15] transfusion afterwards, and that is really, really scary. But I tell you.

Payman Langroudi: What have you done? Would you have done something differently? [00:40:20] I mean, what stopped the clopidogrel?

Adeel Ali: I guess I probably would have stopped clopidogrel. Um, [00:40:25] but, you know, you got to really reflect on these situations. Um, and, [00:40:30] um, you can look at it in a, in a positive light as well, that I’ve got an infrastructure of surgeons that [00:40:35] we, that I could rely on. Mhm. Um, I [00:40:40] wish that I wish the hospital had dealt with the situation a little bit better, especially maxillofacial department. [00:40:45] Um, but just fortunate to have really, really, really good people [00:40:50] that I work around.

Payman Langroudi: But where was the error.

Adeel Ali: I think the error.

Payman Langroudi: Was the complication.

Adeel Ali: Yeah. It’s the [00:40:55] I think probably the area was in suturing. I mean, probably it was a continuum. Maybe I did thinking [00:41:00] back, maybe a continuous lock would have been better to really to really sort of get good, [00:41:05] really, really tight approximation. Uh, so one of my colleagues just, uh, did a continuous lock [00:41:10] and issue resolved. So lesson is, is that maybe stay [00:41:15] two weeks after surgery before flying out? That’s true. Yeah. So so you go really reflect. But I tell [00:41:20] you what.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not always possible, is it isn’t always possible. Doing implants all day, every day. Then you’re going on [00:41:25] holiday with your family to Canada the next day. There’s no way of [00:41:30] staying there. Well, this is it.

Adeel Ali: This is it, you know? And, um. So. Yeah. Yeah, that’s [00:41:35] probably a big one. You know, I’ve dropped, you know, whilst doing full arch has dropped an implant in the sinus. [00:41:40] I mean, that’s pretty, pretty straightforward.

Payman Langroudi: I think you do about that.

Adeel Ali: Pretty uh, pretty straightforward [00:41:45] to deal with. Yeah. So I probably that’s probably the biggest one. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And in your journey. [00:41:50]

Adeel Ali: But but on that point. Yeah. Building that goodwill.

Payman Langroudi: Good relationship with [00:41:55] the patient.

Adeel Ali: With the patient before the treatment.

Payman Langroudi: It’s everything.

Adeel Ali: It’s everything. Because that could have gone two [00:42:00] ways. That could have been like, you know what, we’re taking this further. Or you know what? You [00:42:05] know, you took care of us. You did what you did. And, uh, and they took it like that, you [00:42:10] know.

Payman Langroudi: Have you had a situation where it’s gone the wrong way?

Adeel Ali: Um, yes, I have, I’ve [00:42:15] had, uh, quite a few situations where it’s gone the wrong way. Um, I’ve [00:42:20] had, I’ve, I’ve even had a case, uh, of litigation that I never even saw the patient, [00:42:25] but I’ve had a dentist writing notes in my, you know, when you, when you, when you log into your practice [00:42:30] management software, writing it in my name.

Payman Langroudi: God.

Adeel Ali: I mean, you just come across so many different people, so. [00:42:35]

Payman Langroudi: But, I mean, how do you feel in these situations? I mean, I remember when I was dentist, I never had I was I [00:42:40] wasn’t dentist long enough to have enough problems. But I had a couple of complaints. And I [00:42:45] remember there was one particular lady where I’d gone out of my way for her to try and do, and it’s always those that [00:42:50] tend to come back to get you. And but the complaint letter had said he was careless [00:42:55] and he hadn’t. You know, something like this here and to this day, I think about that letter. Yeah. [00:43:00] Um, and it was inconsequential. It was nothing. But but I had someone sitting [00:43:05] where you’re sitting telling me he dropped a fluoride varnish in the patient’s eye. [00:43:10] Yeah. Because he didn’t have eye protection on. And it affected him for years. [00:43:15] Years? It bothered him. Yeah. You know, that’s the cat he was. So. So [00:43:20] how do you handle, like, how do you how do you keep on going when these sort of [00:43:25] things happen? How long does it affect you for? How do you see it? Do you see it as the intention? [00:43:30] Because that’s the best way to look at it. Is your intention was right.

Adeel Ali: The intention was right. And [00:43:35] again, having that infrastructure at home, I mean, for me personally, you know, having a wife to, to relay back [00:43:40] to me that you are a good person, you are conscientious and having [00:43:45] that repeated constantly, you know, you know what? Stuff happens [00:43:50] and you just got to move on. I can, you know, I can see why. It’s. [00:43:55] To be honest, it’s a good thing with with the dentist that you’re talking about. You know, he is conscious. That’s why it’s [00:44:00] affecting him so much. But you can’t let it get to a place where it’s sort of paralyses you from from moving [00:44:05] forward. And you keep sort of thinking about that situation.

Payman Langroudi: Was he was saying something around how a [00:44:10] lot of his identity is built in being a good dentist.

Adeel Ali: Right?

Payman Langroudi: Too [00:44:15] much. Too much of his identity is built in being a good dentist. Now, you could say your identity is to do with your [00:44:20] family, your wife, your religion, your gym. You know, a lot of there’s a lot of factors that contribute [00:44:25] to who you are. Yeah. But he was saying being a dentist was a big like the biggest part of [00:44:30] his identity. And when that was threatened, his whole identity was threatened.

Adeel Ali: Well, I think that’s [00:44:35] probably part of the problem as well. I think when you’re growing, and certainly for me, dentistry was a big part of who [00:44:40] I am, but slowly started trying to phase out of it to become a more well-rounded individual. [00:44:45] So, and, um, you know, if if a complaint does come, it doesn’t sort of [00:44:50] phase you. Phase you as much. Because you know what? I’m a human being. You know, I’m doing high risk, complex [00:44:55] work, and this is the part of life I’ve just learned to just swim in deep waters. Now everything’s. [00:45:00] You know, if it’s not dentistry, there’s gonna be something going on in family life or it’s not. It’s going to be in finances or in [00:45:05] business, whatever it is you just got to be. You used to be comfortable and.

Payman Langroudi: Roll with the punches. [00:45:10]

Adeel Ali: Roll with the punches. That’s life. You know, I used to think, you know, one day I could, you know, sit in some [00:45:15] money and be set. It’s, you know. No, that’s never gonna happen.

Payman Langroudi: Also in business, once you’ve been in business for a while, you realise [00:45:20] that is business.

Adeel Ali: That’s all that is the nature of business.

Payman Langroudi: Well, that’s that’s the part that is what [00:45:25] business is about. It’s about solving that problem.

Adeel Ali: Problem.

Payman Langroudi: Because. Because everything else in business is, [00:45:30] you know. All right. Relationships. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Make your customers happy, make your investors happy, [00:45:35] make your staff happy. You know, like that’s it. That’s all. That’s that’s everything. [00:45:40] But those missiles that come from nowhere. Yeah. You know, some manufacturer suddenly [00:45:45] loses his regulatory. And now I can’t supply my desensitisers. [00:45:50] Stick out of the blue. How do you. How do.

Adeel Ali: You. How do you pivot? You got to pivot quick.

Payman Langroudi: All [00:45:55] of business is managing those situations. You know.

Adeel Ali: On a on a daily.

Payman Langroudi: Basis. Brilliant member of staff who suddenly [00:46:00] decides to leave the country.

Adeel Ali: You know that one as well. Yeah. Associates that don’t want to turn [00:46:05] up or you know, like it’s just.

Payman Langroudi: About business lessons. Because one thing I’ve noticed [00:46:10] is that implantology is good for business. No doubt. No doubt about that. [00:46:15] Yeah. And often we can fool ourselves sometimes into thinking we’re [00:46:20] wonderful entrepreneurs in dentistry. Yeah. And we are. We’re entrepreneurs. [00:46:25] We have a business. Yeah. There’s no doubt about that. Um, but when [00:46:30] you set up a practice and, you know, you, you then sell it on and partner [00:46:35] issues and these things and you’ve done it a few times now you’ve [00:46:40] done it three times.

Adeel Ali: Now I’ve had I’m on my third business partnership. Yeah. [00:46:45] So you can have some good porn? No. Third or fourth. You can have good partners. You can have bad partners. There’s [00:46:50] a lot.

Payman Langroudi: So what are some lessons you’ve learned around both? Both the structure, the partnership thing. Like are [00:46:55] you the kind of person who can get into partnership with anyone? For instance, Prav we were talking [00:47:00] about. Yeah. That cat, she’s got partners left, right? He’s got so many partners. Yeah. [00:47:05] And he’s the kind of guy who will turn up to. He’ll insist on a board meeting. Yeah, he’ll sit [00:47:10] in the board meeting and he’ll get what’s his. Yeah, he will he’ll he’ll make sure everything’s [00:47:15] done correctly to the point that he will not get screwed. Yeah. And he doesn’t mind [00:47:20] about the character of the partner? Yeah. Me? No way could I do that. No way. I [00:47:25] could only get in partnership with someone who I 1,000% trust. So what are your reflections when you’ve [00:47:30] had a few different partners?

Adeel Ali: Yeah, I think I think the main thing for me why I went into partnership because I knew what I was good at, I [00:47:35] was good at clinical and I was good at sales. Yeah, I’m really strong at both.

Payman Langroudi: I would say I recommend partnership [00:47:40] because of that. Right. Because we’re not all good at everything.

Adeel Ali: Exactly. So, so for me, it just makes sense to have somebody [00:47:45] strong in sort of operational management of business. You know, I didn’t want to deal with HR compliance, don’t want to do any of that. I’m not good [00:47:50] at it. So for me, it was always, you know, partnerships are good in that sense. Um, [00:47:55] but.

Payman Langroudi: Are you, like, more like me or more like Prav?

Adeel Ali: I would probably be somewhere [00:48:00] in the middle because I’ve been, you know, burnt with partnerships as well. Have you? Uh, yeah. Yeah yeah [00:48:05] yeah yeah yeah yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s just some crazy things, you know? Um, over. [00:48:10] Yeah. Just just just basic. Basic. I think I think a big part of, [00:48:15] uh, partnerships should be based on sort of trust and loyalty and [00:48:20] and living up to your values. You know, if I’m going to say this, just just just do it. [00:48:25] Um, obviously things change over the years, right? They they change over the years. You [00:48:30] know, people grow, you know.

Payman Langroudi: In different directions.

Adeel Ali: In different directions.

Payman Langroudi: But also it’s quite interesting what you said about [00:48:35] complementary skills. Yeah. Like my partner saying he is that operations. [00:48:40] He loves computers. He loves systems. Very organised, super [00:48:45] reliable guy. Yeah, I’m the opposite. Like, it’s probably [00:48:50] quite unreliable. Sales, marketing. You know that bit more like you. Yeah, yeah. [00:48:55] Um, but the basic principles are aligned, and [00:49:00] it’s that combination of basic principles being the same, basic principles being [00:49:05] how we deal with ethics, how we deal with people, how we deal with money, how the [00:49:10] basic principles have to.

Adeel Ali: Change as.

Payman Langroudi: Well. Yeah. True.

Adeel Ali: You [00:49:15] know.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting.

Adeel Ali: You know, I was talking to my business partner yesterday. Um, [00:49:20] we were just talking about the topic of loyalty, and he said, you know, because he’s he’s very pessimistic about [00:49:25] people, because he’s he’s been having.

Payman Langroudi: The worst about people.

Adeel Ali: Worst about people. I’m the guy [00:49:30] that wears my heart on my sleeve. So we’re very, you know, so so we complement each other in that sense. In that sense. Um, [00:49:35] he just expects everybody to screw him. So he’s very he’s got he’s very guarded. I said, I’ll never screw [00:49:40] you. And he said, you know what? You’re probably right. So I was like, that was a big, [00:49:45] big thing for him. But, you know, we we talk about, you know, like trust. And I was on a podcast yesterday and [00:49:50] giving some advice to a marketing team, and those 225 year old guys started marketing business [00:49:55] doing phenomenally well. I said, just just make sure you stick to some key principles. Be loyal [00:50:00] and grow each other. Yeah. And realise as you’re on this journey together, you’re [00:50:05] going to grow in different directions. You’re going to get married, you’re gonna have children. Your needs and wants are going to change. Just be always be [00:50:10] open about that and communicate with one another. You know.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s your advice on partnerships, how [00:50:15] to choose the partner you’re saying for you. You need to start with a [00:50:20] level of loyalty, level of trust. But you need.

Adeel Ali: You need you need to character assassinate [00:50:25] who you’re doing partnership with honestly. And you need to do your due diligence about the person. How do they have [00:50:30] integrity? You know, if they got integrity, you can work with that person. You know, I would I’d [00:50:35] always go for integrity more than skill set. Mhm. Integrity I’d say integrity and work ethic. [00:50:40] You know, those are the core fundamentals of of a partnership [00:50:45] that you need. Because I know say I’m in Qatar. I just don’t have any doubt about my [00:50:50] business partner.

Payman Langroudi: Not pulling.

Adeel Ali: His weight, not pulling his. He’s he’s he’s pulling his weight. I just know it. [00:50:55] I haven’t got that. Is he doing. Is he not. Is he actually you know I just know he’s pulling his weight. And I know he wouldn’t [00:51:00] lie to me because he’s he’s got integrity.

Payman Langroudi: And what about other lessons in [00:51:05] practice? Ownership. Squats. Staff customer acquisition. Patient [00:51:10] acquisition. What have you learned? I mean you’ve done it a few times now.

Adeel Ali: Yeah, I’ve done a few times. I think, you know, for [00:51:15] certainly, you know, doing the acquisition of a business as opposed to starting squad two totally different [00:51:20] models.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Have you done both?

Adeel Ali: I’ve done.

Payman Langroudi: Both. Okay.

Adeel Ali: I both if you are, if you’re asking what I prefer now as [00:51:25] I’m a little bit older, probably acquisitions, probably a little bit easier, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Less stress.

Adeel Ali: Less stress. And you know, [00:51:30] I would my philosophy now is I’d rather buy revenue than create it. So if I buy revenue, [00:51:35] I can easily add revenue onto it because you’ve got an infrastructure right and you can move a lot quicker.

Payman Langroudi: Although, although although [00:51:40] goodwill is overpriced a little bit good.

Adeel Ali: Goodwill is overpriced. But again, if you’re doing implantology [00:51:45] then you could probably pay a little bit over because if you bring some, you know, put some [00:51:50] CapEx into it, get your CT scans, get your intraoral scanners, put a basic patient journey together. [00:51:55] You can really grow the turnover. So we you know, my business partner at the time, me and him, we [00:52:00] bought a practice and we we we doubled the EBITDA in a year because we weren’t really aggressive with Implantology, you know. [00:52:05]

Payman Langroudi: So on the existing patients.

Adeel Ali: On the existing patients.

Payman Langroudi: So there wasn’t [00:52:10] a problem with trying to get new patients in.

Adeel Ali: Because it was a surgery practice.

Payman Langroudi: And so were [00:52:15] you looking for a practice like that where it was a big practice? Yeah, I always wanted we weren’t really doing the implantology.

Adeel Ali: That’s [00:52:20] it. And there’s still a lot of practices like that, you know. So I said to my mentees, you know, I think Implantology is still [00:52:25] in its infancy. If you look at the penetration rates of.

Payman Langroudi: In the UK, particularly.

Adeel Ali: Massive, massive. Yeah, yeah, [00:52:30] yeah. And I think Implantology needs to become more affordable for people. I’m a big advocate of that. More patients [00:52:35] need dental implants. You know I don’t And I’m probably going to ruffle a few feathers here about partial [00:52:40] dentures. You know, all my patients, I’d say 90 to 95% of my patients are patients [00:52:45] that are wearing partial dentures. They just can’t tolerate it or a complete denture. You know, I don’t I really don’t [00:52:50] believe they should be wearing these things. I think people should die with fixed teeth. And we should aim and drive to [00:52:55] make implantology more affordable for patients so they can benefit from it. So [00:53:00] what we did at smile, well, you know, I invested a lot into tech. I invested into a lab. Now we’ve just [00:53:05] bought some milling machines. So investing into technology digital technology. And so we [00:53:10] can put systems and processes in place. So then I can pass those savings on to the patient. [00:53:15]

Payman Langroudi: You seem very comfortable in the uncomfortable just [00:53:20] used.

Adeel Ali: I’ve been I’ve always been in there since school days. I went to a tough school. I, [00:53:25] you know, when you’ve got someone waiting for you after school with a hammer to [00:53:30] crack your head in, or you’ve got guys waiting for baseball bats after you after [00:53:35] a party There’s no more. If you could get through that anxiety, [00:53:40] dealing with complaints and things. It’s a joke.

Payman Langroudi: But when I say uncomfortable. A lot of people, myself [00:53:45] included. Yeah. The idea of you can see behind you. There’s a lab there. Yes. The idea of building [00:53:50] a lab was so painful to me, so uncomfortable for me, that we [00:53:55] didn’t do it. For the first 15 years of enlightenment, we were outsourcing the lab. Yeah. My [00:54:00] partner, he’s more like you. He’s like the idea of, like, digital printers and all [00:54:05] of that stuff. He just loves it. He loves computers. But. But what I’m saying is, a lot [00:54:10] of dentists will never set up a lab for that reason. Because it’s another thing.

Adeel Ali: Again, I don’t have to fully [00:54:15] understand it to invest into it. I’ll just pick the right people that know it. So I’ve got really good friend who’s well into digital, [00:54:20] and I just said, just give me a new, not a new, but a new [00:54:25] digital inside out as well. But a Rob I mean, he’s a very good friend of mine. He knows his digital inside out. So [00:54:30] just just tell me what I need to get. See, with my zirconia milling machine. He’s done all the research. I’ll just find a [00:54:35] rob. What am I doing here? What do I need to get?

Payman Langroudi: So is that the way you.

Adeel Ali: Sort of.

Payman Langroudi: Is that the way you navigate problems? Who? [00:54:40] Not what.

Adeel Ali: Exactly?

Payman Langroudi: It’s always interesting perhaps like that to you. We’re going to start a podcast, [00:54:45] he said let’s go find the world’s top podcast coach. I was like, what? What’d [00:54:50] you say? But he did. He went and found this guy. Yeah.

Adeel Ali: Exactly. Just just [00:54:55] leverage of people’s skill sets. Yeah. That’s how you move. Move fast because, you know, the job’s [00:55:00] already been done. You just need to implement it. Right? So I don’t need to go. And on umpteen amount of courses [00:55:05] like you’re saying about, you know, my favourite course style, you know, would like to go on, I don’t really need to go on [00:55:10] because I just need to know, just put me in front of who’s doing it, who’s doing it. Well. [00:55:15] And that’s how I met Juan Gonzalez. I hit him up on Instagram. Uh, he taught me how to do pterygoids. [00:55:20] Um, and I’ve just implemented his way because it just made sense to me.

Payman Langroudi: Learning from the best is always a good idea [00:55:25] as well, man.

Adeel Ali: Always.

Payman Langroudi: You know.

Adeel Ali: It’s just not even learning. It’s, you know, if you’re in their aura, it’s [00:55:30] just something different about it. You know, being with Tatum.

Payman Langroudi: Them? Yeah.

Adeel Ali: It’s different. Honestly. It’s just.

Payman Langroudi: Who [00:55:35] would you say? Like, for me, it was Andrew. David is my hero. Yeah. Yeah. He’s my hero in dentistry. [00:55:40] Who’s yours?

Adeel Ali: Vicario. My mentor.

Payman Langroudi: He’s really.

Adeel Ali: Really. Yeah, yeah. So he’s still, you know, he’s like a second [00:55:45] father to me. You know, like.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t mean that. I mean, like hero worship hero. That kind of hero.

Adeel Ali: I’d [00:55:50] say he’s my hero.

Payman Langroudi: Honestly, because he’s he’s he’s like he’s too close to home to be a hero. You know what?

Adeel Ali: I you [00:55:55] know, I might sound a little bit controversial here, but I don’t really rate.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:56:00] anyone.

Adeel Ali: Anyone I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Okay. Okay.

Adeel Ali: Yeah. No no, no. As [00:56:05] in, because if they’re doing well clinically, I want to see you in a three. I want to see you across [00:56:10] every facet of your life. Yeah. You’re doing the clinical world. But how’s the business? How do your team view [00:56:15] you? How’s your family life? How are you raising your children? I want to see it. And then it’s a case of, you know what.

Payman Langroudi: In [00:56:20] the whole.

Adeel Ali: In. Yeah, that’s how I start rating rating people. And so when if you, you know, if somebody’s [00:56:25] done a, like a, like a full life beautiful arch with pterygoid zygomatic implants, but [00:56:30] they’re failing in other aspects of life. Well, I don’t know. I just can’t can’t resonate with it as much. [00:56:35]

Payman Langroudi: I like that. Yeah, I like that. It’s a nice way of looking at, well, how much of your sort [00:56:40] of ethics and all that come from religion? Like, what’s your relationship with God and all that?

Adeel Ali: No, I’d [00:56:45] say everything.

Payman Langroudi: Everything?

Adeel Ali: Everything? Everything. I wouldn’t be the man if it wasn’t for my religion. [00:56:50] Honestly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but. But let’s say you weren’t religious. Yeah, you’re. [00:56:55] You would have still learned from your parents, like.

Adeel Ali: I think I think parents can teach. I [00:57:00] think, I think sometimes parents can put a cultural, cultural spin on [00:57:05] religion and it becomes very murky. What is religion? What is culture? Yeah, I think the Indian culture does have [00:57:10] a lot of, you know, respect for family, for parents, for ethics, which [00:57:15] which is great. Uh, but sometimes you have to sort of sift between what is culture, because sometimes [00:57:20] culture can sort of lead you in a very sort of a different way. Uh, [00:57:25] as well, uh, which, which I found on my journey. You know, what is actually actually, this is counterproductive [00:57:30] as opposed to good. I find in Indian culture sometimes, you know, like letting [00:57:35] the children go, you know, find their own feet can be sometimes it can be a little bit restrictive.

Payman Langroudi: Of [00:57:40] course.

Adeel Ali: As well, you know, you’ve probably found that in Iranian culture sometimes as well. Yeah. Yeah. [00:57:45] Yeah, yeah. So, so you just got to sort of you navigate and as I get older, you know, at the age of 40, I can [00:57:50] sort of see what’s what’s good for me and what’s not.

Payman Langroudi: I’m talking about you’ve got the ethical [00:57:55] framework here. There’s some ethical question comes up. Yeah. And you decide to go [00:58:00] one way or the other. Yeah. You’re not surely telling me you’re sort of referring back [00:58:05] to religion for that decision. I because [00:58:10] I don’t have I don’t have religion. Yeah, yeah. But I feel like I’ve got ethics. Yeah, yeah.

Adeel Ali: No, no. Absolutely. You can have ethics [00:58:15] without religion, I just. But, um, for me, obviously God consciousness [00:58:20] is a big thing.

Payman Langroudi: Um, do you pray?

Adeel Ali: I pray, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Would you pray for.

Adeel Ali: I pray? [00:58:25] Well, as a muslim, I pray five times a day.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but would you pray pay for?

Adeel Ali: I pray for what I think. [00:58:30] Prayer for me is one. It’s incumbent on me. It realigns [00:58:35] me. Honestly. It gives me such a sense of realignment. Five times. Five times [00:58:40] a day.

Payman Langroudi: Five times a day.

Adeel Ali: I read five times a day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m not perfect. Sometimes I miss and I have to make [00:58:45] up and so forth when I’m travelling and this and that. I try my best to pray five times a day. And you know what? Especially [00:58:50] in Implantology, you know, you’re doing such risky work. You’re not just having that reliance that, you know, I put my head on the ground. [00:58:55] God, I’ve got a very, very difficult surgery to just keep my patient safe, keep [00:59:00] me safe, keep my hands, give me strength to to get through this mentally got challenges. You know, moving to Qatar has been a [00:59:05] huge challenge for us. Financial everything. You know, just put my head down and.

Payman Langroudi: It’ll be all.

Adeel Ali: Right. It’ll be [00:59:10] all right. You know? It’ll be all.

Payman Langroudi: Right. Yeah. I’ve got I’ve got a friend who’s got faith and he sometimes he does that with [00:59:15] me and I realise there’s strength in it. Yeah. The strength. He’s a surgeon as well actually. The [00:59:20] strength like something he’s, he’s his eyes will kind of glaze over. Not in a, in a good way [00:59:25] sort of thing. And he’ll go, I’ve got this problem, I’ve got that problem, but it’ll be all right. Yeah. And I’m like, how the hell [00:59:30] do you know it’s gonna be all right? Yeah, because I haven’t got.

Adeel Ali: See, my paradigm [00:59:35] is any. Anything that’s good or bad is always for. It was meant to be. Yeah. [00:59:40] This is how it was supposed to be ordained. So see the good in that.

Payman Langroudi: But what’s the downside like? So [00:59:45] there’s the upside of of faith. Yes. That in those moments when someone passes away unfortunately [00:59:50] there’s many upsides. Yeah. What’s the downside.

Adeel Ali: Downsides of faith. [00:59:55] I honestly I can’t see any downsides. I mean [01:00:00] downside it doesn’t I don’t feel I don’t feel restricted. Um I don’t feel that [01:00:05] I can’t do anything that I don’t want to do. Um, I’m not, you know, and it keeps it keeps [01:00:10] me in check. It keeps me. It keeps my integrity to where it needs to be. Keeps my credibility, keeps me [01:00:15] loyal. It keeps me engaged with people. Uh, it’s given me a really good framework [01:00:20] that gives me fun for the long term, you know? So for me, I don’t, you know, I’ve never done [01:00:25] drugs, I don’t drink, but those those. Those, [01:00:30] those, those sort of restrictions being put into place as so you [01:00:35] can have fun over the long term.

Payman Langroudi: Whereas the outside there must be downside. The, the [01:00:40] way I look at it is I’ve explained to you there’s a downside to not having a faith. Yeah, yeah. [01:00:45]

Adeel Ali: But what would you suppose like like a potential downside to faith.

Payman Langroudi: Because I have [01:00:50] a guilt feeling.

Adeel Ali: Um tempted guilt is good. I mean, like you again. [01:00:55] Like, from my perspective, people could go so deep, like like, you know, with that complications with [01:01:00] the dentist, you can go so deep into it. But, you know, I believe God is the most merciful and most forgiving. [01:01:05] So, look, you know, you can have it. You know, you just just brush it off. That’s how you know, you can make a mistake. You just brush [01:01:10] it off and just.

Payman Langroudi: You know, the classical questions that people ask, people who believe.

Adeel Ali: Go for it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And, [01:01:15] you know, I’m sure you’ve got a classical answer, but you know this. I’m [01:01:20] not even asking you the question, but hear me out. You say, oh, this child was born yesterday. [01:01:25] Tomorrow a bomb dropped on his head and he died. Why did God allow that? And then you’ll say something like, [01:01:30] God moves in mysterious ways. By the way, you saw that child. That child didn’t have a chance. You [01:01:35] did. You had a chance. You saw what happened there. So now go live your life well, like there’s [01:01:40] guilt right there. Yeah. There’s guilt. Now, me, I see that child. I feel [01:01:45] terrible for that child. Yeah, but I don’t have some feeling of. God showed me that child so that I would now. Yeah, [01:01:50] yeah. No guilt.

Adeel Ali: Guilt, guilt. And, um, you know, [01:01:55] in those obviously what’s going on in the world right now, it is it is really challenging [01:02:00] times, you know. Yeah. And people do lose their faith, uh, these sort of things.

Payman Langroudi: When were we closest to [01:02:05] like, when was it when was your faith most challenged.

Adeel Ali: Most challenged. When you go through [01:02:10] calamities. Yeah. When you go through calamities.

Payman Langroudi: You’re thinking, God, why have you done this to me?

Adeel Ali: I mean, it’s just [01:02:15] it’s just a.

Payman Langroudi: Calamity in particular comes to mind when.

Adeel Ali: School.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:02:20] really?

Adeel Ali: School, man. School was tough, man.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Adeel Ali: You know, and, um.

Payman Langroudi: Bullying [01:02:25] and.

Adeel Ali: Bullying. Bullying is tough, man. I tell you what, it is tough, you know, and, um, I’ve, you [01:02:30] know, I’ve, I’ve got you probably have noticed I’ve got a big birthmark on my face, so you can’t see it because. Because [01:02:35] of the beard now. But growing up with a big mark on your face. And you know why? You know why have I got [01:02:40] this on my face? You know, like, you know, other kids don’t have it, you know, getting, you know, teased about that. And then. [01:02:45] But I was still quite confident as well. So people didn’t like that, you know, and, uh, you know, just. [01:02:50]

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes that confidence to cover up the lack of confidence.

Adeel Ali: I talked about. Yeah. So I had to I [01:02:55] what I did was I tried to be overly overcompensate. Yeah. Overcompensated [01:03:00] for it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s funny, when you’re a kid, all you want is to fit in. And then when you’re an adult, [01:03:05] all you want to stand out.

Adeel Ali: As, like, you know, at the age of 40, I’m trying to cut the list. Do [01:03:10] you know what? I’ve got a hit list. Alright, we need to get around because I just want, you know, [01:03:15] peace and quiet. You know, the less people I know, the the better, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about Qatar. The [01:03:20] decision to move is a big decision. Yeah, and you told me you don’t know [01:03:25] anyone there.

Adeel Ali: Even I don’t know anyone there.

Payman Langroudi: Because, you know, I thought maybe you’d say you’ve got family there, you’ve got friends there, you’ve got something [01:03:30] there. What was that decision making process like? Like, did you start feeling, [01:03:35] I don’t want to bring my kids up in Britain as much as before.

Adeel Ali: Well, I talk about [01:03:40] it in the book and it was quite profound. So we went on a holiday to Qatar in August 23rd, [01:03:45] and a year later we were there. Right.

Payman Langroudi: Did you fall in love or.

Adeel Ali: Yeah, because we always wanted to. We always [01:03:50] like the Middle East. We’ve always been going to Dubai. My wife and I, you know, the kids. We’ve been going to Dubai quite a lot. My brother’s [01:03:55] there. Her family is there as well. So we’ve always wanted to to move at some point. [01:04:00] Um, we went there this time and we said, look, I mean, we’ve just remember we’ve just started [01:04:05] the business as well. We’re a year into it.

Payman Langroudi: The education business.

Adeel Ali: No, no, the the squad, [01:04:10] the squad. So and you know, with the private squad, it has to be clinically it has [01:04:15] to be owned and operated. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You start making that into an associated business, you know, with the cash flow issues [01:04:20] with the starting business is very, very difficult. So if we don’t do it now, then our eldest [01:04:25] is going to be starting and we can’t pull him out of halfway through GCSEs. So we have to do it now or [01:04:30] never. So we sat down with our other business partner and said, look, this is what we’re planning. [01:04:35] And he just had a nearly had a heart attack. So. So we have to now remodel this business [01:04:40] so we can get out of the country and remodel it to an associate business. So, you [01:04:45] know, and obviously the cash demands for associated business is so much higher. So we had to just really, really pivot [01:04:50] on that. And um, we were sort of able to move. And the main reasons is we want look safety [01:04:55] for the kids. I think, you know, my son’s getting to an age where he wants to go out with his mates. I just don’t want [01:05:00] that.

Payman Langroudi: Do you feel unsafe now, like in Britain? Did you feel unsafe with the kids? I’ve [01:05:05] got that feeling that it’s unsafe. Yeah.

Adeel Ali: Do you know what I know?

Payman Langroudi: It’s safe in in [01:05:10] in the very, very safe. I think I think it’s safe to a ridiculous extent. Yeah. [01:05:15]

Adeel Ali: Absolutely. But, um with with, with with, you know, kids walking on the street. I’m just [01:05:20] going back to, you know, my childhood. You know, nobody.

Payman Langroudi: You just didn’t want that. I didn’t.

Adeel Ali: Want that. I didn’t want that. [01:05:25] And to be honest, like in our day, you know, like you never think you could lose your life. You’d get beaten [01:05:30] up, but you wouldn’t lose your life for it.

Payman Langroudi: Knife crime.

Adeel Ali: Knife crime has gone through the roof, you know? And you know, again, [01:05:35] you know, with our kids, they’re in a very sort of, I’d say, protective environment. You know, as they grow older, they [01:05:40] may want to go out here or there. It’s it’s, you know, I wanted to give them that freedom.

Payman Langroudi: Is [01:05:45] there not a degree of racism in Qatar from the, um, like more than here? I [01:05:50] would.

Adeel Ali: Say. I would say I think there’s definitely a hierarchy in all of those in all of [01:05:55] those countries, right? If you’re from the UK, you do get treated a little bit better, you know, and [01:06:00] what you’ll see. And then you’ll, you’ll, you’ll have the working class people, you’ll have, you know, I’m Indian, so you’ll have Indian, Pakistani, [01:06:05] Afghanistan.

Payman Langroudi: What I’m saying, do they not see you as an Indian? And then we.

Adeel Ali: Haven’t felt.

Payman Langroudi: That.

Adeel Ali: We [01:06:10] haven’t felt that, you know, we haven’t felt that. I think when you when you when you start talking. And that’s what it’s all about, you know, [01:06:15] you’ve got to have presence. You know, like, you know, I always, you know, I try and stay in shape. I try and wear [01:06:20] good clothes, good clothing and, you know, and have a presence. And, you know, when you meet people, you know, these what we talked [01:06:25] about. You know, I think people view you a little bit differently there. And I think if you’re coming in as a business [01:06:30] owner, as opposed to I’m looking for a job, I think people sort of view it a little bit differently.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve only [01:06:35] ever landed there on, on the, on the way to Thailand or something, but it looks extraordinary. [01:06:40] It’s amazing from the from the window of the plane. Beautiful. But the difference between Qatar and Dubai, [01:06:45] would you say it’s just less frantic.

Adeel Ali: Way less frantic. And I’d say it’s much [01:06:50] more family orientated. You know, it’s it’s just very, very family culture. And that’s what we wanted, [01:06:55] you know, because, you know, after the years of working so hard and not spending time with the family, I just wanted to focus on [01:07:00] the five of us and really to build those relationships. So I’d say, you know, in the last year, my relationship with my wife [01:07:05] has got even better. You know, we put the kids to sleep. We don’t lock the door. We just go out, you [01:07:10] know?

Payman Langroudi: But so what? What does Dubai have that would allow [01:07:15] you to do that.

Adeel Ali: I would say Dubai is I think it’s just very hectic. I just [01:07:20] think it’s very hectic.

Payman Langroudi: In what sense? Traffic and all that traffic.

Adeel Ali: I mean, have you got an Uber and have [01:07:25] you taken Uber in Dubai recently? It’s crazy. Like and it’s it’s getting more and more expensive. Uber in Qatar [01:07:30] is dead cheap. Really cheap. Um, I.

Payman Langroudi: Think just stuff restaurants, [01:07:35] shopping, everything’s the same. Cheaper than Dubai or um.

Adeel Ali: I [01:07:40] wouldn’t say the restaurants are cheaper, but certainly Uber and travelling is a lot cheaper. There’s there’s [01:07:45] not many people there.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So that’s what that’s what I understood that it feels like Dubai empty. [01:07:50] It is Dubai empty.

Adeel Ali: And doing business there. Certainly harder as well. Really. So yeah, it’s [01:07:55] a lot more challenging. Yeah. And I’d say, you know, I get a lot of dentists asking me, you know, you know, what’s working in Qatar, like can [01:08:00] I get a job with you, etc.. I said I wouldn’t make the move if you didn’t have your solid roots in the UK. [01:08:05] Uh, because if you’re trying to sort of go to Qatar to work, you’re not going to earn like you [01:08:10] earn in the UK. Nowhere near nowhere near.

Payman Langroudi: The price of dentistry isn’t more. [01:08:15]

Adeel Ali: Way less.

Payman Langroudi: So why is that? Why are restaurants more expensive but dentistry cheaper?

Adeel Ali: I think I think [01:08:20] healthcare hasn’t moved with like the, the hospitality industry, which is, which is quite and that’s what we [01:08:25] wanted to bring. We saw that, you know, if you go to, you go, you know, you go to the Fairmont, you go [01:08:30] to whatever, all these lovely hotels, they’ll really service you. But you don’t you don’t see it in healthcare, [01:08:35] which is it’s still in Dubai. It’s, it’s it’s not like that.

Payman Langroudi: So, so that was a sort of niche that [01:08:40] you said.

Adeel Ali: Why, why aren’t we bringing.

Payman Langroudi: It.

Adeel Ali: So look, we we we we, we called [01:08:45] our clinic a very innovative name. We just called it London Implant Clinic. Get [01:08:50] the London in there. You know, you know the Qataris love London and Harrods and that sort of thing. Are we just, [01:08:55] you know, we just really want to bring that service to them. So because Qatar is love being serviced.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah I bet. [01:09:00] Yeah.

Adeel Ali: Yeah I guess everybody does.

Payman Langroudi: So if you’ve gone above and beyond on the deck. Yeah.

Adeel Ali: We’ve got a nice little coffee bar [01:09:05] in there. We’re going to make, you know, you know, coffees and things like that. And we’ve got, you know, really high [01:09:10] tech equipment. Got really good surgeons in there, and we were bringing sort of other services [01:09:15] that they don’t currently do in, um, in Qatar at the moment, like [01:09:20] like full arch dentistry. They don’t do it for, you know, they don’t do it. They’ll do the very traditional [01:09:25] where they’ll take the teeth out, they’ll, they’ll take out, uh, you know, then they’ll give them a complete [01:09:30] denture. Wait three months. They’ll stage the whole stage, the whole process.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting. And [01:09:35] how did you get your first patient?

Adeel Ali: We’ve got, uh, marketing. So we’ve [01:09:40] got an in-house marketing team there. Um, yeah, we’ve got a full time CAD technician there. So again, [01:09:45] we didn’t we didn’t have any of these connections, you know, so the first connection we got is when we [01:09:50] were looking for a practice, we, the real estate agent that was taking [01:09:55] us around, you know, his English was very good. He was young, good looking guy. And in the car, [01:10:00] you know, we were speaking. The three of us, the three business partners said, you know, this guy’s good. We should we should offer him [01:10:05] something. Yeah. So we offered him a job. He joined us.

Payman Langroudi: As the marketing guy?

Adeel Ali: Uh, [01:10:10] no. As a as a, like a like a manager stroke, uh, a treatment coordinator. He’s like, yeah, we sold him [01:10:15] the vision. What we’re trying to do. He came on board, he introduced his mate who was like, um, another [01:10:20] young guy, 24, 25 years old, marketing, uh, marketing guy.

Payman Langroudi: Who’s are [01:10:25] these locals?

Adeel Ali: These are all locals? Yeah. Yeah, they all in Qatar, you know, this this this marketing chap that works [01:10:30] with us now. He’s worked on projects like, like Marvel, FIFA, like done loads of stuff. So [01:10:35] sold in the vision. He’s come on board full time. Full time.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Adeel Ali: Full time. [01:10:40]

Payman Langroudi: Um, so what does he do?

Adeel Ali: He does all.

Payman Langroudi: Social media.

Adeel Ali: All social media, ad creatives, [01:10:45] design everything.

Payman Langroudi: Paid ads out there.

Adeel Ali: Doing paid ads. Your cost per leads a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Digital [01:10:50] only.

Adeel Ali: Digital only right now. Yeah, yeah. Uh, so so the paid I mean, you know, cost per lead is a lot less [01:10:55] there for sure.

Payman Langroudi: Is it, is it. Yeah. Less competition.

Adeel Ali: Less competition, less competition forwarding. Then we’ve got a full time [01:11:00] CAD technician. So I’ve been from Pakistan.

Payman Langroudi: So in a squat you’ve [01:11:05] got these three full time.

Adeel Ali: We leveraged that for the UK as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah. But three full time people. [01:11:10] No you need.

Adeel Ali: You need to have two specialists full [01:11:15] time to open up a clinic in Qatar. They need to.

Payman Langroudi: Be the.

Adeel Ali: Rule. [01:11:20] That’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Rule.

Adeel Ali: So, you know, just imagine you open up a squat and you have to pay two dentists full time [01:11:25] when you’ve got no patients coming through the door. Yeah, that’s that’s a big cash bleed, right. Yeah. So you have to you have [01:11:30] to account for all of this.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a lot of like the the cost of entry is gigantic. [01:11:35]

Adeel Ali: It’s massive. So so my advice is, you know, really think. Careful, careful. Yeah. [01:11:40]

Payman Langroudi: Did it end up costing you a lot more than you imagined?

Adeel Ali: No, no, we we budgeted. You knew that. Yeah. We know we knew what our breakeven [01:11:45] was going to be for that, you know, so you got to have a sort of 6 to 12 months. You know what? We’ve got to hit breakeven at [01:11:50] least 12 months.

Payman Langroudi: Did you know dentists out there at all?

Adeel Ali: Not really.

Payman Langroudi: No one. So how did you find [01:11:55] out all this stuff? Prospecting.

Adeel Ali: Just prospecting people. Just, you know, hard, cold. Just. [01:12:00]

Payman Langroudi: Were you busy, like, going around trying to talk to as many people as possible.

Adeel Ali: Talk to people, talk to doctors. [01:12:05] We got a you know, we met a lot of doctors. Doctors there. Um, UK doctors [01:12:10] put us in touch with people. Had loads of meetings. A lot of them time waste some good [01:12:15] prospects. Put me in touch with X, Y and Z. And that’s how.

Payman Langroudi: That’s how. How do you like what was your [01:12:20] mindset at this point? Because was your mindset I’m going to [01:12:25] go there, see what’s possible, maybe do something, maybe not. Or [01:12:30] are you like that? You were saying all in, you’re going to make it work.

Adeel Ali: And do you know what I would say? My wife was [01:12:35] more all in than me because, like, she’s moving and the kids are moving. They’re going to be there. Well, I’m travelling back [01:12:40] and forth. So I was like, you know what? We’ll build this up, but I’ve still got the UK and build that up as well. And [01:12:45] you know, I always had the back of mind if it doesn’t work we always come back. But she was like, she actually [01:12:50] really had a pop at me. She said, look, I don’t like you talking like this. Look, we’ve done it. It has [01:12:55] to work.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s go all.

Adeel Ali: In. We have to go all in because it’s not going to work with this mentality. You know, like you’re not. [01:13:00] You’re giving UK so much care and attention. You have to give this care and attention as well. Always, I’m [01:13:05] only one guy. What do you want me to do? She said no, no. Well, you know, you’re going to make it work. You’re going to put the effort here because the [01:13:10] team are going to see that as well. So she really rewired me. So we’re just guns blazing [01:13:15] on both ends now. Yeah. For sure.

Payman Langroudi: And so I mean, where are you at? Are you are you breaking [01:13:20] even or.

Adeel Ali: No no. Hell no no no no no. We’ve been open for what, a few months now. Two, three months. Oh is [01:13:25] that it. Yeah. Yeah. So remember the whole process has probably taken about a year [01:13:30] to open, a year to open, you know, your rent free finishes up what, after about four months [01:13:35] and then cash flow starts. Right. So yeah. And and then getting an appointment [01:13:40] you know the CQC equivalent is the mop there. So getting appointment there to check your clinic [01:13:45] you know from a compliance standpoint and compliance is very tough there. Cqc is a [01:13:50] walk in the park compared to Mop. Yeah yeah really really. Yeah yeah yeah really [01:13:55] tough.

Payman Langroudi: And are you sort of funding your life with the travel back to the UK sort of thing.

Adeel Ali: Yeah. So, so obviously we’ve got [01:14:00] the business and then obviously I come back and I do, I work as well. So we’ve got. [01:14:05]

Payman Langroudi: To literally you’re taking 12, 15 flights a year. Yeah. Yeah. Like you’re [01:14:10] constantly back and forth.

Adeel Ali: Qatar Airways is nice. They look after.

Payman Langroudi: It is it.

Adeel Ali: Is. You’ve got a nice qsuite. So [01:14:15] you get to rest because you know, if it wasn’t for qsuite, then I wouldn’t be able to lie down. And, you [01:14:20] know, because I’m straight into surgery, I work seven days when I come back like it’s back to back like tomorrow, [01:14:25] I’m, I’m mentoring a full arch upper and lowercase Sunday, I’m doing the same thing again. So I’m here [01:14:30] for three weeks now. I’m working seven days. Literally. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Careful, buddy. You know.

Adeel Ali: Yeah. [01:14:35]

Payman Langroudi: It’s it’s it’s tough flying. Flying even in business class. Right. Is is is damaging. [01:14:40] Yeah I do feel it. The reason I’m telling you this. Not because I’ve done it myself, but I have so many [01:14:45] friends and family, like the types who spend their whole lives on planes. And, uh, [01:14:50] you look like a healthy guy and all that. Yeah, they can catch up. Some of these guys were healthy guys. Yeah, [01:14:55] and they got sick, man. They got sick. You know, flying is tough.

Adeel Ali: See the pay [01:15:00] the pay right now Again. There’s no option, is it? It [01:15:05] has to be a short stint, and I’ve got to make it work. Um, but, you know, [01:15:10] there’s light at the end of the tunnel. That’s how I. How I look at it. As long as you know.

Payman Langroudi: You’re young enough. You’re young enough.

Adeel Ali: You’re not [01:15:15] as young as I used to be.

Payman Langroudi: Energetic. You’re energetic enough and all that is. All I’m saying is there’s an [01:15:20] area of caution in it. Yeah, even a one hour flight is is [01:15:25] a pain. It’s a pain. Yeah. For us guys who don’t fly every week.

Adeel Ali: Yeah, yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: One [01:15:30] hour, two hour flight. You feel a bit groggy a bit. Crap. Just the whole airport journey. All [01:15:35] of that.

Adeel Ali: It’s that. It’s that.

Payman Langroudi: That does it as.

Adeel Ali: Well. It’s going early. Waiting. Yeah, that sort of thing.

Payman Langroudi: But. But a [01:15:40] six hour flight every three weeks.

Adeel Ali: And then straight into work as.

Payman Langroudi: Well and straight into work seven [01:15:45] days a week. Be a little bit careful, dude. You know, like work six days a week. You know what I mean?

Adeel Ali: So [01:15:50] the thing is, when the thing is, when I come to the because the lifestyle is so chilled in [01:15:55] Qatar, you know.

Payman Langroudi: You do get the rest there.

Adeel Ali: Yeah. It’s like three weeks. It’s like because I’ve got two [01:16:00] clinicians there. Right. So I’m not doing any work there. Okay. It’s very relaxed. I get to train a lot. [01:16:05] Um, relax. We go out quite a bit as well, so it’s quite relaxed. It’s not intense, [01:16:10] but when I do come back. Where are you living?

Payman Langroudi: Are you. Are you renting somewhere?

Adeel Ali: Yeah, we rent a villa.

Payman Langroudi: They’re trying [01:16:15] to figure out what’s what before you get by place.

Adeel Ali: Exactly, exactly. But I think I think the culture in [01:16:20] in Qatar and Dubai, these places probably just to rent. Not so much in Dubai because. But I think, you [01:16:25] know, uh, you know, from a, um, investment standpoint, I don’t think the properties [01:16:30] appreciate as much in Qatar as they do in, in Dubai.

Payman Langroudi: Is it is it, as you would imagine, just like state [01:16:35] of the art, everything beautiful.

Adeel Ali: As in the properties there?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Adeel Ali: You do have [01:16:40] state of the art ones. We live in a villa. It’s a it’s a little bit, you know, we had to adjust to the [01:16:45] different, you know, like the, the colour schemes and things like that, you know, very Arab style. I don’t know if I can do this [01:16:50] or not.

Payman Langroudi: Gold everywhere.

Adeel Ali: Gold and gold and all that. Yeah. But, uh, you know, the kitchen had had red [01:16:55] cabinetry. I was like, oh my God. But I was like, you know what? We It’s just a kitchen. Do you know what I mean? [01:17:00] So, uh.

Payman Langroudi: It’s fun. And a swimming pool and stuff.

Adeel Ali: Yeah. So you’ve got, you’ve got, you’ve got the swimming pool there, and it’s [01:17:05] in a complex with five other villas, and they’ve got a beautiful lagoon outside. So we [01:17:10] go kayaking. Me and my son go kayaking.

Payman Langroudi: And we’ve got people that live in your villa and help you.

Adeel Ali: Yeah, I’ve got one [01:17:15] made so that that that’s a godsend. I mean if.

Payman Langroudi: You can standard there. Right.

Adeel Ali: It’s a standard thing [01:17:20] there. But it just it just gives me my wife a lot more time, you know, like, you know, we, you know, [01:17:25] because you know, she doesn’t need to do the ironing and cooking and that she likes [01:17:30] to cook, but, you know, the preparation of the food, you know, chopping up the thing and, you know, washing the dishes and stuff. It just gives [01:17:35] us so much more time, time we can spend.

Payman Langroudi: And what do you miss the most about the UK or what do they miss the most [01:17:40] about the UK?

Adeel Ali: Kids don’t miss much. I mean they’ve got their they had their friends but they’ve made new friends. Now my [01:17:45] wife doesn’t really miss much. I miss it because I’m, I was at work. The working relationships [01:17:50] that I have, um, miss my obviously I miss my parents and so forth, but because I’m [01:17:55] still dipping in and out, Um, you know, I get to see them, I get [01:18:00] to see the staff. And when I do come back, it’s like a deal’s back. So let’s go out for a meal. We have a good time.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:18:05] funny. I’ve got. I’ve got one of my best friends lives in Iran. Yeah. And, um, then he moved here [01:18:10] for a while. Yeah. And we realised I used to see him more when he used to live in Iran than when [01:18:15] he moved here.

Adeel Ali: Yeah, yeah, because you make an effort to.

Payman Langroudi: Make an effort because. Oh, he’s just come. It’s his first day. Let’s go. It’s [01:18:20] his last day. He’s going. Yeah. Make the most of him while he’s here.

Adeel Ali: I see my friends more now. [01:18:25]

Payman Langroudi: It’s weird.

Adeel Ali: Yeah, because they know. When are you back? I’m back on this. This and this state. Yeah, right. They’re [01:18:30] coming. So I’ve got some guys, you know, my best mate from Manchester. He’s coming tomorrow to see me after after work. And so [01:18:35] they make an effort. So we see them all now. So it’s it’s it’s all good in that sense.

Payman Langroudi: We’re going to finish off with some quick [01:18:40] fire questions. Best lecture you’ve ever seen.

Adeel Ali: Dennis Parnell’s [01:18:45] lecture about ten years ago he had a six hour online seminar. Best lecture [01:18:50] I’ve ever done. He went around the room, he went basically, there’s a whole, uh, cohort of implant surgeons. He [01:18:55] just. There was no structure to it. He just went around each room, each delegate, and he had [01:19:00] a whiteboard. Sorry. He had a flipchart. What did you struggle with in Implantology? People [01:19:05] say implant design, sinus graft. What is platform switching? [01:19:10] And he just went one through and it was the best thing I’ve ever seen. Honestly.

Payman Langroudi: Tunnel. [01:19:15]

Adeel Ali: Tunnel. Yeah. Yeah. So he he is he’s he’s another good father of Implantology. [01:19:20] And that I implement that in my training now so I do I go around the room.

Payman Langroudi: And so it could be different [01:19:25] every time.

Adeel Ali: It’s different every time. Look what we’re struggling with guys. Boom boom boom. We’ve got three topics. All right. Let’s go.

Payman Langroudi: Nice. [01:19:30]

Adeel Ali: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The best book. Are you not [01:19:35] a book guy?

Adeel Ali: I’m a book guy. I’m a book guy. Um. How to stop worrying [01:19:40] and Start Living by Dale Carnegie.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Adeel Ali: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, he’s got his famous book, How to Win Friends [01:19:45] and Influence.

Payman Langroudi: I read that.

Adeel Ali: One. Yeah, but how to stop Worrying and Start Living. That helped me in my dentistry as well.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Adeel Ali: Yeah, yeah, [01:19:50] there’s a story in there about, uh, a guy in World War two. When he got captured, the American guy got captured by the [01:19:55] Japanese, and, uh, he just got accustomed to the fact he’s going to be executed. [01:20:00] So he just.

Payman Langroudi: Stopped worrying about it.

Adeel Ali: I’m going to get executed. That’s cool. And [01:20:05] then the Japanese just. Just saw him just being normal and laughing, and he’s like, what’s wrong with this guy? [01:20:10] So they actually pulled him out and said, maybe we can use you for intelligence or something. [01:20:15] He actually saved his life by just accepting the fact. So I kind of I try and use that in dentistry. [01:20:20]

Payman Langroudi: Sounds a bit like that. Um. Uh, man’s quest for meaning. Frankl. [01:20:25] Viktor Frankl, you know, concentration camp.

Adeel Ali: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, sort of. Sort of. Once, [01:20:30] once he realised he has the only thing he can control is his own, you know, habits. [01:20:35]

Adeel Ali: Yeah. Well, this is.

Payman Langroudi: Everything else was taken from him.

Adeel Ali: Yeah. I mean, you know, to [01:20:40] be honest, you know, with with what I do, I’ve always had the back of the head. Maybe one day I’ll end up going to GDC [01:20:45] because it’s such high risk work. Right? Yeah. And, you know, how would I pivot if I got into that situation? [01:20:50] What would I do? And I’ve just tried to sort of custom myself with that. God forbid it doesn’t happen, but [01:20:55] if it does, you know, I think I’ll be able to to manage that.

Payman Langroudi: So two people sitting here [01:21:00] who medically had to stop, really, you know, whether they had the arm issue [01:21:05] or whatever it was, had to stop, you know, and neither of them had bought [01:21:10] any sort of insurance for it.

Adeel Ali: Um, but.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a funny thing, because you [01:21:15] just think it’s not going to happen to me. Yeah. But anything could happen, you know, like I was riding a lime [01:21:20] bike just now. Literally. Like I hit my knee. I crashed into some guy. Gosh. Yeah. [01:21:25] Like anything could happen at any time.

Adeel Ali: At any time.

Payman Langroudi: Um, well, [01:21:30] we haven’t talked about this yet, but we will. Um, if you could indulge me, [01:21:35] if time and money was not a factor. Of course you’d jump into.

Adeel Ali: I [01:21:40] would spend more time with Juan Gonzalez [01:21:45] in America.

Payman Langroudi: Even more time, even more.

Adeel Ali: Even more time with him. And I’d. And I’d. And I’d [01:21:50] want to learn some new techniques in Guatemala with him for sure. Just I just want to be [01:21:55] around him more often. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: He’s your hero.

Adeel Ali: He’s. He’s my [01:22:00] hero. Just, just, you know, and just sit down with him, you know, over, over some coffee or something [01:22:05] and just talk if I, if, if time and finances had had no bearing on it. [01:22:10]

Payman Langroudi: Favourite Dental book.

Adeel Ali: Favourite Dental book would have to be [01:22:15] Ashok Sethi’s book on practical implantology. When I was when I was studying Timur, I read that book. [01:22:20] It’s just such an easy read. I just told one of my associates this morning, actually to buy that book. Brilliant [01:22:25] book. Business influence as [01:22:30] in the person, Grant Cardone.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Adeel Ali: Yeah, yeah. I’ve been listening to him for about [01:22:35] 13 years. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I just, I, you know.

Payman Langroudi: I’m jealous of him. He annoys [01:22:40] me how successful he is.

Adeel Ali: Yeah, but you know what? He recently, he’s kind of changed. He’s he’s he’s [01:22:45] much more flamboyant now. Before he used to be just raw, hard sales. Yeah, I bought his, uh, [01:22:50] automotive, uh, sales course. It’s like a 12 CD [01:22:55] box set.

Payman Langroudi: Did it help?

Adeel Ali: Massively. I used to listen to that thing on repeat. Really? Yeah. And I also did Ashley [01:23:00] Latter’s course many years back. And he had, like, a CD.

Payman Langroudi: On all these drives that you’re doing?

Adeel Ali: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I used to just. [01:23:05]

Adeel Ali: Just same thing over and over again. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about this then. This is called [01:23:10] scaled for success. The Komodo approach. Yes. What does the Komodo approach mean?

Adeel Ali: Komodo. [01:23:15] Well, that concept came from you.

Payman Langroudi: Just like that picture.

Adeel Ali: I just like that picture. [01:23:20] Yeah, it’s pretty cool. So the Komodo approach came really from training with my jiu jitsu [01:23:25] coach. So I do some Brazilian jiu jitsu and he’s actually blind and he’s [01:23:30] the strongest man I’ve ever grappled with. And you know, I, I don’t know if you know much about jiu jitsu, but [01:23:35] it’s, you know, grappling, grappling on the ground and, um, you know, typically, [01:23:40] you know, because I’m not as skilled as him, I’d be frantically moving around trying to get him out. Get him off [01:23:45] me. But he’s just so calm and measured in his approach. You know, he’ll he’ll just move his [01:23:50] arm one hand at a time, move his, you know, positioning, his hip positioning. [01:23:55] Just mastery. Just just just effortless.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Adeel Ali: But if you want to put on a submission, [01:24:00] you can just put it on just like that. So I said to him, you know, like, you [01:24:05] know, the way that you do Jiu-Jitsu, you you remind me of a Komodo [01:24:10] dragon. So he started laughing. I said, you know what? Also, the way that you do jiu jitsu [01:24:15] business should be done like that as well.

Payman Langroudi: But what’s the Komodo?

Adeel Ali: The Komodo approach is [01:24:20] a way that I’ve built up my career and done business. So I’ve moved at a very [01:24:25] measured. Although I’ve been all in. I’ve moved, uh, measured pace, learned [01:24:30] my craft, got in touch with the right mentors step by step. You know, just making [01:24:35] sure I know every aspect of that. And then when I was ready for the real business, which started after Covid, I [01:24:40] went into it hockey stick growth on my practices and bang bang, bang bang. So it’s about doing [01:24:45] I want it. And especially I wanted to write a book like this, because we’re just seeing the new generation of dentists [01:24:50] coming out that are being led a lot by Instagram. I mean, I was talking to a fourth year dentist [01:24:55] who came to shadowing with Qatar recently.

Payman Langroudi: Student.

Adeel Ali: Student who came to see me in Qatar. He’s he’s he lives in Qatar. [01:25:00] He goes to Manchester University. And I said what kind of conversations are you having? He [01:25:05] said, you know, most dentists I speak to, they just want to go into aesthetic cosmetic [01:25:10] dentistry. And I was like, well, that’s it’s just being led by [01:25:15] a lot of it’s being led by social media and Instagram, which is a little bit concerning for me. I’m, you know, we [01:25:20] should be sort of much more healthcare orientated, especially in our younger days. So I wanted to [01:25:25] write a book about sort of like kind of traditional ways of learning your craft. And [01:25:30] I’m telling you, if you learn your craft the way I’ve done it, patients will respect you more. You’ve put the hours in, you’ve done the hard work. [01:25:35] You’ve you’ve, you’ve you’ve given the time. And you know, when we speak to patients, I always try [01:25:40] and remind them that, you know, we we know this inside out. And I think patients will respect [01:25:45] you more for that.

Payman Langroudi: To learn your craft in a sort of ordered manner.

Adeel Ali: Ordered manner.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. What else does [01:25:50] it say in there?

Adeel Ali: It talks. It talks about my journey. It talks about when the right time is is [01:25:55] to scale your business and it focuses.

Payman Langroudi: How do you scale your business marketing? [01:26:00]

Adeel Ali: No, no, there’s more to it than that. You’ve got to feel right yourself.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Adeel Ali: When [01:26:05] you’ve sort of it all starts from mastering your craft first. Because if [01:26:10] you haven’t mastered your craft, you can’t win people. You know, I always say in my business and I always say to my dentist [01:26:15] before winning a patient, you have to win your team every day. I’ve been doing it for 17 years. I go in, win [01:26:20] the team, make sure they’re on Team Adele every day, every day. So you have [01:26:25] to know yourself first if you’ve mastered your craft because you can’t sell a poor [01:26:30] proposition, you know, to your team, to your family. Right?

Payman Langroudi: It’s a very good point.

Adeel Ali: Yeah, [01:26:35] 100%. I mean, look how you scaled your business, right? You know, you knew that you only did the lab after [01:26:40] 15 years, you said, but you could look at it as a negative. But, you know, sometimes you it was the [01:26:45] right time for you to do it, you know, and you had the backing and the support of your team to say, you know what, hey, [01:26:50] we should do this, but.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So so yeah, make sure you know your craft. Yeah. Make sure you hire good people [01:26:55] and you inspire them every day. Yeah.

Adeel Ali: Exactly. But the hiring the right people, they they’ll [01:27:00] assimilate to your culture. They know who you are and what you stand for.

Payman Langroudi: So you’ve got that. [01:27:05] My team are good.

Adeel Ali: It’s good. And the proof is in the.

Payman Langroudi: Pudding that will come out to the patient.

Adeel Ali: You’re saying to the [01:27:10] patient the proof is in the pudding how you’ve scaled one site, right. So I’ve [01:27:15] grown multiple sites before. So I’ve done it. I’ve got proof in the pudding now I’ve scaled the score. So I’ve scaled an acquisition uh, [01:27:20] in revenue I’m talking about I’ve done a squat, grown A to X revenue in [01:27:25] a short period of time. Now that’s a good that’s a good package. Yeah, yeah. [01:27:30] We’ve got these sort of systems and processes in place. We can take that. And now move it along. [01:27:35] Don’t try and do it too early. You’ll just get stung.

Payman Langroudi: And the systems and processes themselves. [01:27:40] Yes. Did you chance on them? Did you ask?

Adeel Ali: That’s why. That’s why you need [01:27:45] good partners that are good in operational management. I can I can sit down with my business partner and say, look, I’m [01:27:50] gonna we have mine dumping sessions. I’ll say, look, someone who’s my wife or Adnan, [01:27:55] look, this is mine dump. I’m just gonna reel a few things out. I need you to collate this information [01:28:00] and put it into something. And we’ll tend to have mine dumping sessions all the time. It [01:28:05] may not make sense, but they take that information and they put it into a system, and then they’ll tweak and refine. And we’re constantly refining [01:28:10] those techniques. You know, I’ll, I’ll, you know, I’ve got my own sort of, um, eight [01:28:15] step system for how a consultation should be done. I’ve developed it myself over, over [01:28:20] the years. That’s going to be my next book, by the way. Cool approach to dental [01:28:25] consultation.

Payman Langroudi: Give us give us some tips on.

Adeel Ali: Yeah. Okay. So you need to, um, consultation [01:28:30] doesn’t start in the room. It starts from your digital presence. It stands for what [01:28:35] a patient can research you about. Right. So with all my mentees they need You [01:28:40] need to have a website. You need to double down on your Google reviews. You need those digital assets [01:28:45] because the consumer or the patient is well informed today, especially if you’re doing [01:28:50] high end services like Implantology.

Payman Langroudi: So I noticed, for instance, your practice in Bournemouth, only five star [01:28:55] reviews, only five star and a good number of them like 60, 50, 65. [01:29:00]

Adeel Ali: And you know know we’re up to about I think 120 in.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:29:05] agree with you. I agree with you in a dental practice setting is quite easier than in other setting. [01:29:10] Yeah.

Adeel Ali: I remember most of my guys are probably travelling implant surgeons, so getting reviews from [01:29:15] patients that you see on a one off is difficult. So the first thing is you need digital [01:29:20] presence. You need so somebody can research you. Yeah. So what I usually do with my associates, I [01:29:25] just type the name into Google. Nothing. I said what’s patient going to read about you. Nothing. You [01:29:30] know, they need to be halfway in the sales journey before they even come into the consultation. When [01:29:35] they come in, how they’re treated by the staff. And, you know, it’s just normal business principles.

Payman Langroudi: Call them before they turn up. [01:29:40]

Adeel Ali: To us we. Well, we phoned them for like a reminder.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but [01:29:45] it’s an interesting idea. Yeah. That I’m your dentist. Um, is there anything you want to ask me before? That’s [01:29:50] good. It’s a brilliant idea. Yeah. Um, but.

Adeel Ali: I think you can do that on a one surgery site. It gets [01:29:55] a little bit harder when you’re scaling.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s that sort of scaling, the unscalable sort of idea. [01:30:00] But that’s.

Adeel Ali: That’s really good idea.

Payman Langroudi: Alright then. Then patient comes.

Adeel Ali: When we, when we, when we do, [01:30:05] when we get a lead in the staff know what to say on the phone. Okay. You’re going to be treated.

Payman Langroudi: Are they hyping [01:30:10] you.

Adeel Ali: They’re hyping.

Payman Langroudi: Me. That’s the part of the training.

Adeel Ali: Training part hype [01:30:15] all the associates. You’ll you’ll see Doctor Cosimo who’s done this and this fantastic surgeon. And remember, [01:30:20] those associates have sold their proposition to this team. So it’s actually it’s genuine. [01:30:25] Like, so if they’re selling me, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: In the training. Is it. So you’ve got some receptionist. Are you literally [01:30:30] saying doctor X. These are the three things you want to say about him. Doctor. Is it like. [01:30:35]

Adeel Ali: Not as it would be good if we did it like that. But what I usually get the reception we’ve had, we’ve just [01:30:40] had a new receptionist. I’ll get her into the surgery and say, look what we’re doing, and I’ll explain to her, look what we’re doing.

Payman Langroudi: And the goal [01:30:45] there is to inspire.

Adeel Ali: Inspire her saying, oh my God, you gave that teeth. Now it’s genuine when she’s speaking on [01:30:50] the phone, but.

Payman Langroudi: You do train her to say it.

Adeel Ali: We train it to say it, but now she can talk about, you know what she [01:30:55] means. She means it.

Payman Langroudi: She means great. Great. So she’s she’s selling. She’s selling the dentist [01:31:00] to the.

Adeel Ali: Selling the dentists selling. The practice patient comes. A patient will finesse them. Coffee, coffee, everything. [01:31:05] Finesse them. You know, we’ve got really comfortable chairs. We don’t have, you know, like the golds and the [01:31:10] whites. We’ve got very comfortable, warm environment. They get finessed. Bring the patient in. [01:31:15] I’ll always do something, you know, make sure that I have presence.

Payman Langroudi: Do you go and get the patient.

Adeel Ali: Uh, [01:31:20] if I’ve got time. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Got time?

Adeel Ali: Yeah. Yeah, sometimes. Or [01:31:25] sometimes I, you know.

Payman Langroudi: I really believe in that. I really believe in that. If you look at it from the [01:31:30] patient’s perspective, the dentist himself coming out. And I just think that you [01:31:35] set the agenda. Outside, you.

Adeel Ali: Do.

Payman Langroudi: The little, little handshakes, little touches, little thing that you’re saying [01:31:40] it’s.

Adeel Ali: Important.

Payman Langroudi: Little conversation as they’re coming in.

Adeel Ali: Especially if you’re an associate, if you don’t have control of your [01:31:45] environment. I’m very blessed. You know, I’m the owner, right? So I’ve got control of the environment. I’ve got control of the training of [01:31:50] the nurses. So they’re very warm and welcoming. If you’re an associate and you know you can still make it work. [01:31:55]

Payman Langroudi: The nurse is busy enough, right? The nurse is busy cleaning, doing all that. Now to get the nurse [01:32:00] to go out. She’s not going to be in the best, best frame of mind probably.

Adeel Ali: I’m probably just a little bit lazy, to be honest with [01:32:05] you, I think. I think to improve it. Okay, I’ll take your advice.

Payman Langroudi: Patients come in now.

Adeel Ali: I’ll. [01:32:10] I’ll always stand. I’ll have a big smile. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Because, you know, like I said, the first [01:32:15] five seconds, that’s when you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Doing it at that point, that that moment that I’m talking about.

Adeel Ali: And then I always [01:32:20] try and make the consultation entertaining. If I haven’t made my patient laugh in the consultation, [01:32:25] I’ve done something wrong. I’ve had some miserable patients, like just like, [01:32:30] like really miserable. But I’ve got to find an angle where I can make them laugh. So, you know, we obviously build [01:32:35] rapport. Ask very pertinent.

Payman Langroudi: Questions. Questions?

Adeel Ali: Open questions. Um, but [01:32:40] it’s got to be very direct as well because, you know, you got you got a set [01:32:45] time as well.

Payman Langroudi: How long is your consultation? One hour.

Adeel Ali: Always one hour. [01:32:50] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do you reckon at the end of that hour you pretty much know what’s going to happen next? Like you’ve worked [01:32:55] out the clinical situation and you’ve worked out the patients.

Adeel Ali: Sometimes it’s like when it’s very complex, [01:33:00] you know, I’ll say, look, I need to come back to you on it. But most of the time, you know.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the clinical [01:33:05] decisions, you’ve done so many, you kind of know. But I’m talking about the patients, you know, like, these are big [01:33:10] things, big, big, big stories, big like commitments the patient’s going to go through.

Adeel Ali: Well, [01:33:15] the thing is, again, because if you don’t if you’ve done your prep work before, if you’ve got, you know, they’ve read your reviews, they kind of know [01:33:20] who.

Payman Langroudi: You are, what to expect already.

Adeel Ali: Look, if a patient’s coming to me, they’ve already they know they want a full [01:33:25] jaw. So we’ve put if you want to have a full jaw implant, you know Doctor Ali is probably [01:33:30] the best guy for you. We’re going to put you in with him. He’s going to explain the procedure, and patients kind of know if [01:33:35] they need all the teeth.

Payman Langroudi: Has someone already mentioned? Hey, by the way, this could cost 30 grand.

Adeel Ali: Yeah, yeah. So [01:33:40] we do give you we have given indicative figures. But again, even [01:33:45] I always try and make it affordable for patients. So we’ve got because we’ve got the the power [01:33:50] of the in-house lab. I’m very surgically efficient as well. So we can we’ve got that price [01:33:55] elasticity around it. And then if patients have really got a small budget, what we do is bring [01:34:00] them onto the course as a life patient. So so we don’t let I try not to let any [01:34:05] patient slip through because we genuinely want to treat them, you know, and we’ll work with them.

Payman Langroudi: In that hour. You [01:34:10] do all your investigations as well. Yeah.

Adeel Ali: Typically we’ll do a cbct. Uh, if [01:34:15] we’ve got time, we’ll do intraoral scan, but we usually do the diagnostics like intraoral scans and clinical photographs if they commit [01:34:20] to.

Payman Langroudi: The treatment plan. Is that still within that hour? You’re saying this is what I think we’re going to do?

Adeel Ali: What we do. We [01:34:25] do a we call it handing over the baton. So I’ll have I’ll have a treatment plan and I’ll give [01:34:30] indicative figures to the patient. So you know Mrs. X.

Payman Langroudi: 30 to 40.

Adeel Ali: Yeah. [01:34:35] We try and keep our prices lower than that.

Payman Langroudi: 15 to 30. Yeah.

Adeel Ali: 15 to 2015. Yeah. Yeah [01:34:40] I need to work in your practice. But you know, your treatments probably [01:34:45] kind of kind of, you know, around 20 something like that. But. And the TCO is there. So [01:34:50] we do a good discharge and hand the baton over. So I’ll typically call the TCO [01:34:55] in. I’ll say, look, uh, Lindsay, this is Mrs. X. You know, we’ve talked about her. We’ve [01:35:00] given us her options. I think she’s leaning towards this option. I’ve told it it’s going to cost around [01:35:05] this much. But can you kindly go through, you know, each step, answer any questions and just, you know, [01:35:10] give her, you know, some costings and see how she’d like to proceed. And it’s a nice discharge to her. [01:35:15] So what I’ve done is I’ve reiterated everything. Yeah. The patient’s seen.

Payman Langroudi: In front of the patient. [01:35:20]

Adeel Ali: In front of the patient. Yeah. And then I’ve given a good discharge to Lindsay because she knows exactly what to do now. [01:35:25]

Payman Langroudi: And Lindsay gets to sign off. Yeah. How are they going to pay and all that?

Adeel Ali: She gets a. [01:35:30]

Payman Langroudi: Sign, and the very next visit you’re drilling, you’re.

Adeel Ali: Uh. No. So we’ll typically do a diagnostic [01:35:35] appointment as well. So we’ll do, we’ll do uh, we’ve already done the CT scan. So we’ll do the intraoral scans. We’ll [01:35:40] do clinical photographs. And then what my CAD technician does, he’ll take the CT scan. [01:35:45] He’ll take the intraoral scans.

Payman Langroudi: He’ll digital.

Adeel Ali: Digital. He’ll do [01:35:50] aura’s jiggery pokery and then and then and [01:35:55] then, um, the appointment after that, or sometimes, you know, the, the sales [01:36:00] will close the sale and then, you know, if they’re coming from quite far because we patients from sometimes they come [01:36:05] from Liverpool, Scotland, Gloucester, wherever it is, you know, I’ll typically say to Lindsay in front [01:36:10] of the patient, look, if Mrs. X is happy to, you know, get her to wait, I’ll do the scans. I’ll do the, [01:36:15] um, the intraoral scans today.

Payman Langroudi: And Qatar, literally. You’re doing the same thing. [01:36:20]

Adeel Ali: Literally doing the same thing. Totally different culture.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Adeel Ali: Totally different, um, mindset [01:36:25] and And care towards healthcare. Yeah, [01:36:30] very fortunate. In the UK we actually patients like care a lot about their health, dental [01:36:35] health, oral health. In Qatar we’ve we’ve seen a little shift in that, which is [01:36:40] you know I think sometimes aesthetics takes precedence over health. [01:36:45]

Payman Langroudi: Over everything.

Adeel Ali: Over everything. You know. So you know I’ve had patients with grossly carious teeth, veneers, veneers. No [01:36:50] no no no no no we’re not doing that. And sometimes when you have to give [01:36:55] them the raw truth about it, you know, we need to improve your your dietary [01:37:00] behaviours and we need to do a phase of stabilisation.

Payman Langroudi: Just they don’t want to.

Adeel Ali: Don’t want to know don’t [01:37:05] don’t come back. So but so you know it’s early days and we need to sort of find a [01:37:10] way to figure that out. And again we’re in deep waters. We’ll figure that out. Um, but yeah, [01:37:15] I think the biggest thing that I’ve learned from Qatar is, um, dentistry [01:37:20] in different countries and different cultures is totally different beast, totally different beast. [01:37:25] And the value of it as well. You know, we’re very, you know, coming back here, just realise [01:37:30] how much people actually value the healthcare. They may not have the affordability, but they still value.

Payman Langroudi: What thing is you’d [01:37:35] imagine over there everyone’s like really into this thing. But but it’s a different culture, different culture.

Adeel Ali: Different [01:37:40] thing. Dubai is probably the same as well. Yeah. Totally different culture. You know, they’ll spend people will spend [01:37:45] things on aesthetics and luxurious items, but they may not want to spend on [01:37:50] fixing their oral health. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive pleasure, man. I’ve really [01:37:55] enjoyed it. And the thing I think I’ve learned the most from you is to be more courageous, very courageous guy.

Adeel Ali: You’re [01:38:00] a courageous.

Payman Langroudi: Guy. You’re a courageous guy.

Adeel Ali: You’re turning it down. You listen what you’ve done with enlightened, you’ve been established for what, [01:38:05] 20? How many years? 20. And you know, you you’re you’re the courage.

Payman Langroudi: I like the way [01:38:10] you jump into these sort of unknowns, man. It’s super interesting. It’s super interesting. [01:38:15]

Adeel Ali: I wouldn’t say always do it now. Now I’m getting a little bit older. I’m just trying to tame it down a bit. [01:38:20] But it comes it comes from a place of needing to do it [01:38:25] rather than wanting to do it, if that makes sense. It’s either we make it work or.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:38:30] just the way you look at it, though, isn’t it the context that you look at it? Super, super, super fun having you and [01:38:35] coming all the way, all the way in as well.

Adeel Ali: Thank you so much. I appreciate your time, man.

[VOICE]: This [01:38:40] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where [01:38:45] you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:38:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [01:38:55]

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. If you got this far, you must have listened [01:39:00] to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through [01:39:05] and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got [01:39:10] some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing, and [01:39:15] if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so [01:39:20] so so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast has been brought to you by Mini Smile Makeover. Mini Smile Makeover is a two day anterior [00:00:05] composite course led by the extraordinary talented doctor Dipesh Palmer. Two [00:00:10] days of full on, hands on composite training, purely focussed on [00:00:15] anterior work composite veneers, polishing, finishing, shade matching. You also [00:00:20] get a free enlightened kit. Plus we have a great time and a party in the middle. Find out the dates. [00:00:25] Mini smile makeover.com. Now let’s get back to the podcast.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. [00:00:35] The podcast where you get to go one on one with [00:00:40] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:50] gives me great pleasure to welcome Fabian Farber to the podcast, um, [00:00:55] another one of our Future Leaders series. Damien. [00:01:00] You’re. Fabian. Damien. Damien. Fabian. You’re finished. Your [00:01:05] fourth year.

Fabian Farbahi: Just finished. Well, finishing my fourth year.

Payman Langroudi: And starting your fifth year.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. Starting [00:01:10] fifth year, late August at Sheffield. Correct.

Payman Langroudi: Well done for coming all the way down, man.

Fabian Farbahi: I’m [00:01:15] a big fan. That’s what it is.

Payman Langroudi: Do you listen to this pod ever?

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah I do. I’ve [00:01:20] listened to a few of them. Um, I do, I do like it. I think it’s, it’s important to, [00:01:25] as a student to sort of take views of different dentists, especially in this career. It’s a small world. So [00:01:30] I do I do like it. I listen to it from time to time.

Payman Langroudi: Why did you become a dentist? [00:01:35] Not that you’re one yet.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. Um, I think [00:01:40] having Iranian parents, many people will probably know that you’re kind [00:01:45] of steered towards the high status jobs law, medicine, dentistry. And [00:01:50] they really wanted me to do medicine, but I thought I couldn’t give them the satisfaction of doing what they wanted. So [00:01:55] I did some work experience in both. And I thought, um, [00:02:00] when looking at like what I wanted to do, I wanted to do something. I was quite like people based. I’ve always [00:02:05] quite liked speaking to people, um, like speaking to randoms on the train, things like that. [00:02:10] So I just thought, you know what? Why? Why not speak [00:02:15] to people on a daily basis and then also you can help them out as well. Um, and I love that [00:02:20] sort of connection and doing work experience. I feel like I’m back in my interview again. Yeah. Um, [00:02:25] speaking to people. And I just feel like building that connection and, like, going through the way, [00:02:30] um, not only helping someone out, but then also having that patient journey. I think I’ve really [00:02:35] liked, really liked that during my work experience. Um, so, yeah, I don’t think [00:02:40] I could have chosen a better career for myself. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And your sort of first four years [00:02:45] at Sheffield, how different were they to what you thought dentistry was [00:02:50] going to be like?

Fabian Farbahi: To be honest, I had no, no, no expectations and I think that [00:02:55] was the beauty of it. I think anything you go into life, if you have no expectations, you’re more [00:03:00] likely to exceed them. So, um. Dentistry. [00:03:05] I didn’t really know too much about it apart from work experience, and most of my work experience was just in a bit of [00:03:10] hospital, um, a bit of private. Um, but I didn’t think about the clinical clinical [00:03:15] setting, too much about actually doing it myself. I think in some ways, [00:03:20] because I was doing work experience, I had, I didn’t have much idea of what dentistry was like. Um, [00:03:25] I didn’t really have have much to to go by. So [00:03:30] I kind of was just going in.

Payman Langroudi: Why Sheffield?

Fabian Farbahi: I wanted to move up north.

Payman Langroudi: Why?

Fabian Farbahi: Because [00:03:35] I’d been to the same school from two till 18.

Payman Langroudi: In Exeter.

Fabian Farbahi: In Taunton, in [00:03:40] between Bristol and Exeter. Yeah. So I just thought what, like take a step out of my comfort zone. I’ve [00:03:45] been in my comfort zone completely from going to the same school my whole life, and I was just ready [00:03:50] to actually put myself out there and I thought, I need to do something different, go to university where I had [00:03:55] no friends so I could just start a completely new chapter. Um, Sheffield was not too very, not [00:04:00] too well known of a university to go to from south. Like normally a lot of people from down south go to like, um, [00:04:05] well, Bristol, Cardiff the main ones, but up north, Newcastle, Leeds. Um, [00:04:10] so I just thought I’d go there. Um, Manchester and Sheffield, those were the two I had [00:04:15] my eyes on. Manchester was literally just because of football. But then I visited Sheffield and we just had such a [00:04:20] great day. Um, and I think the first thing I noticed was just how friendly the people were. Everyone was just [00:04:25] coming up to us, smiling at us, and I just got that vibe that I could just think. I just thought that this could be [00:04:30] my next home for the next five years.

Payman Langroudi: Um, literally based on that.

Fabian Farbahi: Literally, the [00:04:35] weather was nice. Yeah. Like when you go to Sheffield, you notice the difference between London and Sheffield. [00:04:40] People will actually smile at you. You just have different, different small talk interactions in Sheffield than you do, [00:04:45] um, out here, down south. So yeah, I just thought it was a great.

Payman Langroudi: Like that too [00:04:50] though.

Fabian Farbahi: Do you think?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Fabian Farbahi: I think it just every smaller city when compared to London. [00:04:55] Uh, has more of a community feel to it. But yeah. And I think Sheffield sort of literally [00:05:00] surrounds surrounds by the uni in terms of the city, such a university city. I think [00:05:05] some in some ways London lacks that or the bigger cities lack that, because when. [00:05:10]

Payman Langroudi: The students are much more important person in a in a town like Sheffield or Cardiff. [00:05:15] Yeah. I mean I remember in, in Cardiff when the other students would go for the holidays, [00:05:20] you could feel it in the town. I mean loads of like shops, even empty places. [00:05:25] Empty.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. It turns into a ghost town.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Fabian Farbahi: But um, so I think literally even [00:05:30] when you go out for social nights and everything like that, it is literally students everywhere. So I think it’s [00:05:35] just it’s been so nice being around that environment. So I wouldn’t I wouldn’t change it. I think universities [00:05:40] like Cardiff, Sheffield, even Newcastle, Leeds, things like that. I’ve [00:05:45] from what I’ve heard, they you do generally have the best university experience. And then doing dentistry anywhere in the UK [00:05:50] I think is such an achievement in its own way, because it’s so tricky to get into [00:05:55] the first place.

Payman Langroudi: How do you find the course?

Fabian Farbahi: I think I’ve learned a lot, a lot along [00:06:00] the way. Um, going from first year to to fourth year is [00:06:05] obviously very challenging. First and second year very much so. Because, um, I [00:06:10] took a gap year as well during Covid. So I was out this education system for a while. So [00:06:15] I think getting back back into it, the exam routine, the revising, it took a lot of time to settle in. [00:06:20] And then also, not only that, you’re exposed to a new way of examining, whereas you’ve got clinical exams, you’re [00:06:25] getting marked and things like that. So I did find that very challenging, to be fair. But then after, [00:06:30] when I think when you finish second year, you’ve sort of found that routine and then you find the swing of things. [00:06:35] But a lot of it is literally just error based, just learning from your mistakes because they are inevitable. [00:06:40]

Payman Langroudi: So should we go straight into the mistakes part of the pod?

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. Feel free.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:06:45] So we like to talk about mistakes so that we can all learn from each other’s mistakes. What [00:06:50] comes to mind? What mistakes have you made clinically?

Fabian Farbahi: Um. I think pulp exposing [00:06:55] on my first exam probably is the the big thing, I think, um, [00:07:00] straight away not really balancing the university life and obviously enjoying [00:07:05] going out with taking dentistry seriously. I sort of neglected dentistry. So I think that was that [00:07:10] was probably one of the biggest thing. Um, but we got.

Payman Langroudi: So you were a bit of a party animal.

Fabian Farbahi: No, no no no. [00:07:15]

Payman Langroudi: Keep it.

Fabian Farbahi: My parents not watching. No, I think dentistry everyone knows, is [00:07:20] work hard, work hard and play hard sort of mindset. And with medicine as well and everything. So not [00:07:25] as much of a party animal as us, I expect. But, um. Yeah, you’ve got to have you got [00:07:30] to enjoy yourself outside of.

Payman Langroudi: You’re definitely. What do they call it be knock.

Fabian Farbahi: No, no, no.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:07:35] definitely a big name on campus, right? Because. Because you were, um. President.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. [00:07:40] Of.

Payman Langroudi: What’s it called?

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. Sheffield University dental student society.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So [00:07:45] you are.

Fabian Farbahi: Nah, I’d say, um.

Payman Langroudi: Doctor. Popular?

Fabian Farbahi: No. Not quite, [00:07:50] not quite. But, um. But. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, but that doesn’t happen by mistake, does it?

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. I [00:07:55] thought, you know what? I’d never done anything like that in my life. Um, I thought [00:08:00] dentistry was just. It was going down the sort of academic route. But then I thought, why [00:08:05] not try something different? And originally I was just going to go for social, social, social, um, secretary. [00:08:10] But then I decided, why not try something different, go for a president? And, [00:08:15] um, I thought there was a lot of potential with it because. Because Sheffield University is a student [00:08:20] society and all the students are really social. People are super friendly, um, very active. [00:08:25] Everyone likes going to the events and making a good effort, more so social events than academic. [00:08:30] I think when we were organising the lecture series we’d have not many people in attendance. So goes [00:08:35] to show how many people are at Sheff Care about sort of the, um, like [00:08:40] developing their learning outside of the dental school curriculum compared to maybe London. Um, [00:08:45] but yeah, I thought it was. It was such a great experience. I think you learn so much and realise, still [00:08:50] learn a lot of skills that are very relevant for the outside world.

Payman Langroudi: So the list of [00:08:55] people who were president Jazz Galati was president of that.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I heard you weren’t [00:09:00] there. That was years ago. Yeah.

Fabian Farbahi: No. Yeah. Yeah, I think it was. Well. Well ahead of mine.

Payman Langroudi: Connie was.

Fabian Farbahi: There. Connie was there. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Who else? [00:09:05] Anyone else I know?

Fabian Farbahi: Um, the one from who [00:09:10] works in Surrey, I think, um, Surrey, the Dental company.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, okay.

Fabian Farbahi: I think [00:09:15] I can’t remember.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Alexander.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I was wondering, what’s your president as well?

Fabian Farbahi: She was president, but I don’t think. Yeah, [00:09:20] yeah, yeah, really. Um, but not too, not not as I think that’s, that’s as far as I’m aware, a few people [00:09:25] in the year above me, but that’s it really.

Payman Langroudi: So in the course, which bits of it feel like they’re [00:09:30] more like exciting and which bits of the course did you not sort of thrive [00:09:35] in?

Fabian Farbahi: I think the initial years you are just [00:09:40] sort of learning a level stuff. So I didn’t think that was too exciting. But then as soon as you get into the dentistry. [00:09:45] I love the patient journey. That’s my favourite bit. So the phantom head is obviously [00:09:50] good to improve your clinical dentistry. Yeah, but I really liked starting with a patient from, from [00:09:55] from zero and then setting expectations, communicating [00:10:00] with them, building the rapport. And um, I really put a lot of effort into that. And I [00:10:05] think sometimes we go on outreach as well. And um, sometimes I think probably [00:10:10] the the way I get told off a lot is by putting, putting a bit too much time into the talking to the [00:10:15] patients as opposed to actually treating them. Yeah. Um, which sort of tells you what sort of bit I [00:10:20] enjoy doing most.

Payman Langroudi: Um, it’s interesting though, because, you know, the communication side is [00:10:25] huge in dentistry. So if that comes naturally to you, which it definitely does [00:10:30] with you. Right. Um, then you’re always going [00:10:35] to be the kind of dentist that patients want to see. There’s no doubt about it. And [00:10:40] it’s not emphasised enough in dental school, I don’t think.

Fabian Farbahi: It’s not. But it’s based off an NHS system [00:10:45] and it’s sort of a bit more time pressured. Yeah. Um, so that’s, I guess why I’ve been told off a bit [00:10:50] because you’ve just got a job to do. You’ve got to put up to put the patient out of pain and emergency clinics, etc.. So [00:10:55] but I always think it’s just if you, if you, if you put effort into the communication, [00:11:00] you’re more likely to get the trust of the patient and then they’ll appreciate the help you’ve given them.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:11:05] definitely. And on those long train rides from Sheffield to, um, Taunton, [00:11:10] you’re talking to people randomly. I mean, I think I quite like people, but I [00:11:15] never do that. Never do that. Like on a train, on headphones on and I’m in my phone or [00:11:20] whatever. You’re literally going out looking for conversations. Yeah. You should start a podcast. Really?

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. [00:11:25] Well, I think that is part of part of my plan.

Payman Langroudi: Is it is it? I’m going to get on to that.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. I’ll be competing [00:11:30] with you soon.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent.

Fabian Farbahi: I’m only here just to take some. Take some, take some notes. Yeah. There’s not [00:11:35] many notes to take.

Payman Langroudi: But you literally do that.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah, yeah. So, um, I don’t know. I find the best, [00:11:40] the fastest way to pass time is literally speaking to someone and just getting to know their story and their life. [00:11:45] Um, I feel like I’ve just always had that interest into people and, um, [00:11:50] yeah. So I feel like someone next to me, I’ll just strike a conversation and see [00:11:55] where it takes me. But yeah, honestly, my trains 3.5 hours long and the quickest journeys [00:12:00] are the ones where I just have a chat with someone and just see.

Payman Langroudi: So in the UK it’s not as common. In the US it’s very [00:12:05] common.

Fabian Farbahi: Is it.

Payman Langroudi: Very common? Yeah. I’ll sit next to you on a plane and immediately start talking [00:12:10] to you.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah, well, I think that’s what sort of drives me to do it even more, because if I see [00:12:15] that as a challenge of getting a story out of someone, I just feel like it’s just like it’s just a [00:12:20] nice, nice way to get to know someone. And, um, especially when you’re in London, it’s a lot like. But [00:12:25] there’s also you’ve got to strike the balance in terms you don’t want to interrupt someone’s privacy.

Payman Langroudi: Has that happened as well?

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. [00:12:30] Early on. But I think over time, like the more experienced you get, the you can you can pick up on signals. [00:12:35] And um, I think I’ve found that like, if someone’s not willing to have a chat, they’ve [00:12:40] probably got something going on in their own life. Then you just leave them to it. You don’t take it too personally. But yeah, [00:12:45] I don’t know. I’ve just really I think it just started off as just a way to pass the time. [00:12:50] And then I’ve sort of realised with it, with time and experience, you just get [00:12:55] better at reading signals. So, um, and I think that’s one thing I love about dentistry is just [00:13:00] the abundance of conversations you have, people interactions you have. So I think that’s kind of given me, given me, [00:13:05] um, quite a good social battery as well. So yeah, I really I really do enjoy that.

Payman Langroudi: I think [00:13:10] when you, when you look back on the course, what comes, what comes to mind [00:13:15] if I say, what was your darkest hour?

Fabian Farbahi: It was it was definitely [00:13:20] early on. Just thinking that you’re probably I don’t know, sometimes it’s not. Maybe [00:13:25] you’re not doing the right course for you. Um, I think it happens to everyone, to be honest. Um, whether [00:13:30] they want to say it or not. But I think I have been quite lucky that probably [00:13:35] my, like, the trickier times were actually getting into dental school. Um, I’d [00:13:40] say to anyone, the hardest thing about dentistry is actually getting into the first place. Um, [00:13:45] so I’d say getting into it and doing the ucat, which is some weird IQ test. Um, [00:13:50] and then, yeah, getting through that was a lot more stressful. [00:13:55] I remember when I was doing my interviews, I used to just the way I’d take off my mind from the interview [00:14:00] is just play darts. Just throw darts at the board all day and then go back into the interview, because I [00:14:05] just found it quite stressful. The whole thing, and especially with Covid as well. So, [00:14:10] um, but I think dentistry as a whole, um, I’ve had a really positive experience from it, so [00:14:15] I wouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Say what stands out as high points.

Fabian Farbahi: Presence is definitely. Yeah, [00:14:20] although it’s obvious, I think getting that I was going against two other people and I [00:14:25] think that was very like that sort of opened my eyes a bit of the politics side of things. And um, [00:14:30] at the end of the day, it is a bit of a popularity contest. So it did feel a bit superficial at times, but I just [00:14:35] tried to keep it light hearted, funny, and I think that’s what I was grateful for with Sheffield is that no one, it’s [00:14:40] not too much, it’s not too toxic of an environment. So literally the goal was make [00:14:45] a funny video, present it well. And yeah, I think seeing, [00:14:50] um, I don’t know, political manifestos and you see that they list all these things they do and they never [00:14:55] convert it. Yeah. I was really willing to actually give my points and then actually sort [00:15:00] of.

Payman Langroudi: So what did you say you were going to do? And then what did you do?

Fabian Farbahi: Well, there was a few of these events [00:15:05] that kind of used to run during before Covid and the and the society was [00:15:10] really active before Covid. Um, we brought, uh, this big sports day called Sports [00:15:15] Day to Sheffield. So I was, um, just.

Payman Langroudi: The one I was at.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. That’s it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So [00:15:20] I just thought this is the plan I’d have for the year. Sports day is the perfect way to end [00:15:25] it, so I’d do that. Um, I think when I was looking at what you could do with a [00:15:30] Dental society, I don’t take things like I don’t see something. And just saying, oh, I’ve got it now. That’s it. I’ll [00:15:35] just ride the year. Like I will actually take it a step further. And I think I feel a bit for my committee because [00:15:40] I probably took it a bit too seriously. Um, but yeah, things like there’s this event called the Dental review. [00:15:45] Um, we had lots of charity events. We raised over £6,000 for the charity for charities [00:15:50] throughout the year. So things like that, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Is that something you have to win [00:15:55] or was that. Yeah. So is that coming already. And you just.

Fabian Farbahi: Know. So it’s the tournament that we hosted and then we also [00:16:00] won as well.

Payman Langroudi: No. But you’re hosting. Do you have to win the hosting.

Fabian Farbahi: Oh yeah. So basically.

Payman Langroudi: Rotate [00:16:05] around.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. Yeah. So every year there’s something called the AGM with the BSA. Yeah. You put forward [00:16:10] your city to host something. So we put forward BTK Sports Day. Um, my friend did. And [00:16:15] then um, then also there’s a conference as well, which I know you’ve been to. So, [00:16:20] um, yeah, they’re both quite competitive to get get to get to your home, [00:16:25] home ground. But yeah. So we hosted Sheffield.

Payman Langroudi: And then what? The whole organisation. The whole thing.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. [00:16:30] You organise the whole sports day. We have.

Payman Langroudi: Like a massive event.

Fabian Farbahi: 600 700 [00:16:35] students for dentistry as well. Considering it’s such a small college. Yeah, yeah. But, um. Yeah. [00:16:40] And then you work with sponsors, and I like to say that I think doing dental student [00:16:45] society, doing all these things, the skills are incredibly transferable. Definitely. Because it is literally just [00:16:50] like a it’s a bit of a lab rat in many ways that you kind of running a business with no risk involved. [00:16:55] Yeah, yeah. So you can go up, sponsor, you can go up to sponsors, you can learn and like [00:17:00] negotiate deals with them, find what value is to them. And, [00:17:05] um, yeah, I think dentistry as a whole is an extremely important tool in terms of [00:17:10] transferable skills for even just outside of it. For example, communication, like I’ve [00:17:15] seen people in first BDS who were very nervous, who weren’t very good at socialising with [00:17:20] the general public. Yeah. And now I look at them and think how confident they’ve become because they’re forced into uncomfortable [00:17:25] situations with patients. Yeah. Um, and you’re, you’re forced to having to speak to patients on a daily [00:17:30] basis, whether, whether you like it or not. And then naturally, over time, because you’re sort of making errors, you’re making mistakes, [00:17:35] you’re learning from them. Just the natural, um, sequence of becoming more confident [00:17:40] happens. So I think dentistry is well, I’m very I feel very fortunate to have gone through that path. [00:17:45]

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting you say that because there’s lots of dentists who are thinking [00:17:50] of quitting, um, you know, whether they’re at the end of their tether or [00:17:55] for whatever reason, they’re thinking of quitting. And many of us think there’s nothing [00:18:00] else we could do because we’re sort of in such a subspecialized field. [00:18:05] And a lot of dentists feel like they don’t know about anything else.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Although what [00:18:10] you’re saying is very true. And so much as I’ve had two dentists in [00:18:15] the last couple of weeks sitting where you’re sitting, who had to stop practising [00:18:20] because of a neck problem or wrist problem. Um, which, by the way, bear [00:18:25] that in mind. Yeah, both of them were working six days a week. Yeah. Um. [00:18:30] Um. Different reasons, I guess. But then both of them had to look at other ways of [00:18:35] earning a crust. And, um, you know, it’s it’s interesting because [00:18:40] when it’s forced on you, you do realise there’s lots of things you can do. [00:18:45] Yeah. But when you’re thinking of leaving, you’re just not sure.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s [00:18:50] a nice sort of segue into where are you going to be in three years time?

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah, [00:18:55] it’s a very good question.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk let’s talk as far as clinical. What [00:19:00] do you think? What kind of dentist do you think you’re going to be at that point? I know it’s difficult to know.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:19:05] what’s kind of going through your head? Are you going to just taste a lot of stuff? Yeah. Where are you [00:19:10] at?

Fabian Farbahi: I think the good thing with Sheffield is that you’re exposed to dentistry so early second year, you’re doing [00:19:15] a lot of clinical dentistry and you’re seeing patients. So, um, I’m lucky compared to other students to [00:19:20] actually have a better idea of what I do like and I don’t like. I think oral surgery is [00:19:25] something that I do really enjoy. I love the blood. I don’t mind the blood at all. Trail. And [00:19:30] I think I find it really rewarding when you literally just have a patient coming in with loads [00:19:35] of pain. You take the tooth out and the patient’s out of pain, and that’s a really fulfilling, fulfilling sort of [00:19:40] pathway to go down with the patient as opposed to maybe just put like putting slapping a composite in, although [00:19:45] I know it’s obviously not as easy as that. So, um, oral surgery implants is probably [00:19:50] something I’m very keen in learning more about. Um, but there’s a lot of things as well. And I think a [00:19:55] really big thing I want to start investing a lot of my time into is public health dentistry. And [00:20:00] I think one big problem is, um, prevention just around the whole population. So [00:20:05] I think, um, I think just the problem is the information and the [00:20:10] lack of information that’s around about prevention, not only with dentistry, but the whole health [00:20:15] health system, about general health, things like intermittent fasting, like loads [00:20:20] of little things about like ultra processed foods and stuff, that whole industry, I think [00:20:25] it’s, um, becoming Make easier and easier to eat [00:20:30] bad food.

Fabian Farbahi: And then over time you can get involved in that. So I think that’s something I want to have a big [00:20:35] impact into. So um, sort of those two pathways, the public health and then the [00:20:40] interesting. Yeah. And it’s funny because the oral surgery, the implants, that’s like, say, [00:20:45] for example, you do a full set of implants. That’s right. At the end when the patient doesn’t really [00:20:50] have any other options. But then also that public health, I want [00:20:55] to sort of target the youth, the young, maybe like an education system to teach [00:21:00] children how important it is to brush their teeth, because as soon as the earlier you learn, the more you thank yourself down [00:21:05] the line. And when someone’s two or maybe five years old and they learn all the important stuff, they’ll [00:21:10] thank themselves when they’re age 90 and they’ve still got all their teeth. So sort of targeting the the early [00:21:15] side of things and then having an impact on that with education. And I think education [00:21:20] is so incredibly important and it just doesn’t get the funding that it deserves.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting though, if you [00:21:25] if you go out in the street now and ask a hundred people, what’s the best way of keeping your teeth healthy? [00:21:30] What would they say?

Fabian Farbahi: A lot of it. You’ll be surprised about how little they know about it.

Payman Langroudi: I’d say brush [00:21:35] your teeth, wouldn’t they?

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. They say brush your teeth twice a day.

Payman Langroudi: They would say.

Fabian Farbahi: That. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, some of them might say [00:21:40] don’t have sweets. Mm. Yeah. So, you know, those two bits [00:21:45] of information as a profession, we’ve been pretty good at getting out there. [00:21:50] Yeah. Because, you know, but we haven’t got the bit on frequency [00:21:55] of sugar.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: At all out there, like, if you ask 100 [00:22:00] people, they would have no idea that the frequency is the key thing. But what I was alluding [00:22:05] to is education is one thing, but behaviour change is another thing. Yeah. [00:22:10] Just because I have the information does not mean I’m going to act on it. You know, like I’ve got I’ve [00:22:15] got the information. It’s ideal to go to the gym every day and.

Fabian Farbahi: Take.

Payman Langroudi: Action and intermittent [00:22:20] fasting as well. But if I don’t do that.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t. You [00:22:25] know what I mean? The education on behaviour change.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: That is where you’re [00:22:30] going.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah, yeah. Education on behaviour change to take action. And then I think if you sort of [00:22:35] tailor the pathway to what happens if you continue. And also it’s fair enough [00:22:40] saying brushing your teeth twice a day and not eating, not eating sweets, people know that. But people don’t know the technique to brushing your [00:22:45] teeth as well. No one knows about the 45 degree angle, etc. and um, [00:22:50] even going for your regular check-ups things like that, just to even look for [00:22:55] disease in the first place. And I think what you don’t realise is people actually don’t know, like just the general public [00:23:00] don’t know what’s inside their mouth that well, they won’t know if there’s a massive carious [00:23:05] lesion that’s taking their tooth down to literally the root level. They won’t know that because they can’t [00:23:10] see inside of their mouth. So like you said, education towards behaviour management. But then [00:23:15] also there’s an element where you do have to leave it to the person, the individual to actually take action. [00:23:20] Like you said, telling someone you need to go to the gym four times a week. Um, [00:23:25] it’s good for you is very different to them actually going to the gym four times a week. Yeah, but [00:23:30] I think you can work on techniques to actually influence them into.

Payman Langroudi: Interestingly, [00:23:35] it’s not talked about. I mean, I don’t know about now. Maybe it is talked about, but in my course wasn’t [00:23:40] much on getting people to change their behaviour.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Was it in yours.

Fabian Farbahi: No [00:23:45] it was the that’s the thing the system won’t they don’t sort of talk about how important [00:23:50] Ohi is. Um I think even when dentists practice, sometimes they’re worried [00:23:55] about giving the treatment. But you should put so much more emphasis on the Ohi, because then obviously [00:24:00] the treatment you give will be more successful because they’re looking after their teeth and they’re doing the interdental cleaning, etc.. [00:24:05] But not just that. I think, um, obviously dentistry and oral health is so [00:24:10] linked with the rest of the body system. So putting those two hand in hand, for [00:24:15] example, periodontal health and diabetes, if you control your diabetes, you control your periodontal health vice versa. [00:24:20] So that’s why I think systemic health and oral health should both be emphasised. Um, [00:24:25] and also looking after your teeth is actually proven to sort of help other [00:24:30] general chronic diseases. Um, so yeah, our school don’t teach us that. [00:24:35]

Payman Langroudi: I think like, for instance.

Payman Langroudi: A hygienist education, there should be a massive element [00:24:40] of it that’s about behaviour change.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it must be, should be. Right. But there isn’t [00:24:45] much I don’t think. I don’t think I don’t know.

Fabian Farbahi: But I think I don’t think I think there is a lack of funding towards it. [00:24:50] And I think um, a lot of things as well is like, um, even for example, one [00:24:55] thing I’ve noticed when you buy a drink in the supermarket, it’ll say no added sugar. And then [00:25:00] in your brain you think, oh, there shouldn’t there’s probably not sugar in it. The only thing is there’s no added sugar. There’s still [00:25:05] sugar in the drink. Yeah. Um, I think one really important thing that’s not taught as well is timing of sugars. [00:25:10] So you can wake up first thing you have cereal. Whereas realistically that’s literally [00:25:15] an acid attack straight away in your day and obviously small sort of um, acid attacks [00:25:20] every day for a long period of time. Compound interest. Your oral health is going to struggle as a [00:25:25] result of it. So I just think education is a massive issue with it and delivering it simply [00:25:30] as well as effectively. To cause a behaviour change is something that can really. [00:25:35]

Payman Langroudi: Um, see yourself being part of.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah, yeah. I think well, it’s just something that I think needs [00:25:40] to be done.

Payman Langroudi: Um, yeah. But but okay, we’re talking three years time. We’re going to [00:25:45] come back to this. Yeah. So what do you do about the public health thing.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. So okay. Three years time [00:25:50] probably need a bit longer for that because I need to, um, but well, I could. [00:25:55] Who says you can’t start right now? You know what I mean? So, um, I think three years time, [00:26:00] like, you have your DFT, you’ll start practising, you’ll improve your clinical dentistry, which is very important. [00:26:05] But then I definitely will associate some of my time into trying to make a difference with that. [00:26:10]

Payman Langroudi: So let’s talk implants.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What have you learned on implants so far? Have you have you shadowed [00:26:15] an implantologist?

Fabian Farbahi: I’ve done a bit of, um, evo dent.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Fabian Farbahi: Have you? Yeah. So that was [00:26:20] really interesting.

Payman Langroudi: How long were you there? Like a day.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah, I just did a day shadowing. Um, and then I think [00:26:25] I’ve got. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You see, lots of. All on fours.

Fabian Farbahi: I saw just one, one case on the [00:26:30] one? Yeah, on the, um, jaw. I think that was really interesting. Um, the sort of patient, [00:26:35] patient journey towards that. And I think that is probably as extreme as it gets [00:26:40] from no teeth to teeth that look good as well. Um, and I think [00:26:45] that looks really rewarding. And what they like, what they do, um, and how much of a difference [00:26:50] they make into a patient’s life. And I think that’s something that I am very intrigued by, um, the [00:26:55] surgery aspect of things and stuff. So.

Payman Langroudi: So what are we going to do about this then, if we want to accelerate your path [00:27:00] into implantology? Yeah. I mean, first and foremost, what I would say about Implantology is it’s [00:27:05] one of those all or nothing type. Yeah. I mean, I know it’s not speciality, but it’s an all or nothing [00:27:10] type speciality, insomuch as, you know, there’s a [00:27:15] lot of bits and pieces. There’s a lot of education for sure. So a lot of initial [00:27:20] outlay. Yeah. Before. Before it comes back financially? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Lots [00:27:25] of things can go wrong of course. And so being up for that, being being up for being [00:27:30] that dentist. Um, you know, like at your age, there’s often [00:27:35] a thing where you think of kind of like the sound of being an implantologist. Yeah. It sounds [00:27:40] good.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah, yeah. But then also the dip.

Payman Langroudi: The dip, by the way. Anything worthwhile? Yeah, anything. [00:27:45] If you could have said to me, I kind of like the sound of making my own toothpaste.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. [00:27:50]

Payman Langroudi: Sounds great. Yeah, but as soon as you start getting into it, there’s this massive dip [00:27:55] that happens. Yeah. In anything worthwhile, you’ve got to lean in.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah, 100% to that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:28:00] So. So that’s what we’re saying. Implantology.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. So with dentistry, the two main things [00:28:05] probably implant dentistry, oral surgery. But I also love the sports dentistry side of things. Oh yeah. [00:28:10] So I think that’s quite like a nice niche that I would.

Payman Langroudi: You mean by that.

Fabian Farbahi: Well, I’ve always loved [00:28:15] sports and I’ve liked the idea of treating athletes. And I think there’s such a big periodontal issue with within [00:28:20] footballers. Every everyone within sports dentistry, the trauma as well does link [00:28:25] to that oral surgery side of things. So, um, I like the originally I actually only [00:28:30] wanted to do medicine just to be a sports doctor and then work on the side of football pitches, etc. but [00:28:35] then I’ve sort of been opened up to this world of sports dentistry that’s really, really that I’ve [00:28:40] really found interesting.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re really saying what you’re really saying is you just want to be around sports [00:28:45] people.

Fabian Farbahi: To some, to some degree, yeah, I think.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s your route to be around [00:28:50] because because, you know, sports dentistry, it’s a funny thing. It’s dentistry on sportspeople. Yeah. And they [00:28:55] do have their own set of issues.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, exactly. So I had Annie Seaborne here and [00:29:00] she said that, you know, caries is huge. Yeah, because I have lots of sweet drinks and and and [00:29:05] they’re dehydrated. So. Saliva. Yeah. But okay, that’s one aspect. Then you’ve got trauma. Yeah. [00:29:10] Totally different aspect. Yeah. Um, but you’re saying you want to be part of sports.

Fabian Farbahi: But. No, [00:29:15] I like the high pressure as well of it. So say, for example, if there’s a rugby game and there’s a massive trauma case, then you can go [00:29:20] on and sort of help that. So, um, it’s not just for the sports, it’s [00:29:25] sort of the cases around it. And I’ve seen Annie Seaborne and her presentations, and I’ve sort of really [00:29:30] drawn to the cases that she’s treated. So I think I’m at that phase where [00:29:35] I like the sound of a lot of things, and I’m okay with that. Um, not knowing exactly what [00:29:40] route I want to take. Um, because I know the path will just naturally pave its way to to [00:29:45] what I thoroughly enjoy and what I love. And I feel like if you’ve got a passion for something and it seems just like [00:29:50] play to you because you enjoy it so much, then nothing else really matters. You just enjoy [00:29:55] doing that and it doesn’t seem like work anymore. So I think those two routes. But [00:30:00] who knows, I could say I’m doing.

Payman Langroudi: Do you see yourself as someone who’s gonna have your own practice, [00:30:05] or do you see yourself as someone who’s going to be like a specialist?

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah, um, [00:30:10] I think there is a lot of things I love about owning a practice. [00:30:15] I love the business side of things, and I love the thing like the the way that you can sort of define [00:30:20] a practice culture and have patients treated you treated the way that you would like them. [00:30:25] They walk in, have a coffee, etc. and um, they’re, they’re welcomed really nicely. [00:30:30] And then there’s just that patient journey from right from the get go when they walk into the door and the, [00:30:35] the time they step out that door and they think, like I’ve been treated with such like, such kindness [00:30:40] and respect. So I love that aspect of it. Um, the only thing [00:30:45] is that in some ways, whilst I’m young, I do want to sort of get around and travel the world [00:30:50] and try to take dentistry with me, so. Oh yeah, charity work, um, making a big difference [00:30:55] for people who are less privileged. Um, I think that’s also [00:31:00] something I’d see like as a really fulfilling thing to do. And I think as at a young age [00:31:05] as well, you’re sort of seeking experiences. So yeah, I think it would be a great way of sort of incorporating [00:31:10] the two in terms of doing something, doing like making a big difference in the world, as well as, [00:31:15] um, having a cool experience as a result of it. So I think owning [00:31:20] a practice is probably something down the line when I’m a bit more settled into.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think you are going to be that [00:31:25] cat?

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah, I think it’s likely because it’s tricky [00:31:30] to say now because I know it’s not something that’s going to be a short term thing. I know it’s not something that I’m going to sort of hone in on [00:31:35] and going to graduate and set up my own practice, because that’s going to sort of distil me down to one location. [00:31:40] Yeah. When I think at this age, I’m not really ready for that yet.

Payman Langroudi: Where do you think you want to live?

Fabian Farbahi: That’s [00:31:45] a good question.

Payman Langroudi: I dunno, in the UK. Where do you think you want to live?

Fabian Farbahi: I [00:31:50] like that. Well, I love the South, I love the North, I love the South for different reasons. Um. I’ve been [00:31:55] very blessed to sort of be.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think you might end up staying in Sheffield a while or.

Fabian Farbahi: I don’t think so. I think Sheffield [00:32:00] is a great city to be a student.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Fabian Farbahi: But. And go to university there. [00:32:05] But I think I’m just ready for a new challenge. I feel like sort of. I’ve explored Sheffield [00:32:10] and I’ve loved it. I’ve loved the people and I’ve loved the experience. Um, I like London in many ways. [00:32:15] And then I’ve just a few weeks ago came back from Brazil and did some dentistry there. And [00:32:20] there was a complete difference in mentality there.

Payman Langroudi: Does your elective.

Fabian Farbahi: That was my elective. Yeah. So [00:32:25] we were away for just under two months.

Payman Langroudi: How come some people go on amazing electives like that and then some people [00:32:30] don’t even go on elective?

Fabian Farbahi: We just chose the best university to go to. Um, is.

Payman Langroudi: It does everyone at [00:32:35] Sheffield go.

Fabian Farbahi: Abroad? So Sheffield, maybe Dundee, I think. I’m not sure [00:32:40] what other universities do. I’ve not heard many universities do it.

Payman Langroudi: We used to in Cardiff. We do. Yeah. [00:32:45]

Fabian Farbahi: But they removed it a lot. A lot of universities got rid of it after Covid but we. Yeah we kept [00:32:50] hold of it nice and tight.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me the process. How did you even arrange it.

Fabian Farbahi: So you’re given a block which [00:32:55] is, um, six weeks long. But we chose the block that went through to Easter, so [00:33:00] we got an extra, extra week. Then we, um, then basically you’re given [00:33:05] the block, then you can decide where to go. Wherever. Wherever you’d like in the world. You can [00:33:10] practice dentistry there. You can’t actually. You can volunteer and do dentistry for a charity. You [00:33:15] can link up with the universities and do some work there. So then at [00:33:20] Sheffield, we’re quite lucky to have some good contacts. Through Brazil we get Brazilian researchers to come. So [00:33:25] my friends and I really push for Brazil. My friends want to go to Southeast Asia. I was like, no, [00:33:30] we’re going to Brazil. And then there was there was a long process of just persuading [00:33:35] them.

Payman Langroudi: How many? Four of you. Five of us, five of you.

Fabian Farbahi: And. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Then your best buddies. [00:33:40]

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah, yeah. Nice. My my good friends from university. So we went and we had [00:33:45] the most amazing time. I think we spent two weeks, one week in, um, the [00:33:50] best ranked university in South America, Central America. So they call [00:33:55] it University of Sao Paulo. And then one up north in Belem, which is in the Amazonia [00:34:00] region. And honestly.

Payman Langroudi: In another dental school.

Fabian Farbahi: Dental school. Yeah, two dental schools. And [00:34:05] it was.

Payman Langroudi: What did you do in the dental schools?

Fabian Farbahi: A lot of it was shadowing, um, looking [00:34:10] at oral pathology, oral medicine. Um, but it was just really interesting to see the [00:34:15] difference in healthcare, the difference in mentality there, how much more grateful the patients [00:34:20] are. One university. They would wait 2 or 3 hours in the waiting room [00:34:25] and then they’d have they get seen for treatment and then they’d give the clinician a hug. It was just such [00:34:30] a loving and kind environment that in some ways I think England lacks. I imagine waiting if [00:34:35] you if you were waiting in a Dental in a dental waiting room for three hours, you get seen to for [00:34:40] half an hour appointment. I don’t think you’re giving the dentist a hug. I think you’re giving them a slap in the face. Probably. [00:34:45] Um, but in Brazil they were so grateful for what they were given. And I [00:34:50] think, um, the difference in mentality really struck. Struck like struck a, [00:34:55] um, a big thought of mine into the difference in mentality between Brazil [00:35:00] and England. Not only just dentistry, just the people. We were welcomed so [00:35:05] nicely. People were so kind. They treated us with such respect. So I [00:35:10] think that was sort of a very eye opening experience. And then that sort of led me to think how much longer I could [00:35:15] spend in, like whether I’m going to limit myself or not exactly limit myself, but whether I’m going to stay in [00:35:20] this country for the rest of my life and practice here or explore the world and see.

Payman Langroudi: So were you only there for [00:35:25] two weeks?

Fabian Farbahi: The university was two weeks, and we spent the other time, um, we spent [00:35:30] another four weeks travelling around Brazil. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So where did you go?

Fabian Farbahi: Started in Belem, then [00:35:35] went all the way down the country. Um, finishing off in Foz do Iguacu, which [00:35:40] is where the Iguassu waterfalls are.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, nice.

Fabian Farbahi: So start in Belém. Then Salvador went to some [00:35:45] other areas which are like, kind of like, not very well known outside of Brazil, [00:35:50] but is a very popular holiday destination within Brazil. Um, so Marcel [00:35:55] and then um, Maragogi then went down into Sao [00:36:00] Paulo, which we did our second placement. Belen was our first placement, Rio, of course, and [00:36:05] then down into Foz do Iguacu, then went to Peru for a bit as well. Went to Argentina [00:36:10] too. So yeah, honestly Lima, Lima. And then um, we did Machu [00:36:15] Picchu, all the touristy stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Fabian Farbahi: But yeah, honestly.

Payman Langroudi: And Argentina, where.

Fabian Farbahi: Uh, Argentina [00:36:20] was, we visited the other side of Iguassu waterfalls. So there’s one side in Argentina, one side in, um, [00:36:25] Brazil.

Payman Langroudi: What was the best place out of all of these?

Fabian Farbahi: Brazil.

Payman Langroudi: What stood out? What which places [00:36:30] in Brazil stood out?

Fabian Farbahi: I think going up north in Belem, they have no tourists there. So we [00:36:35] we met the kindest people. The hospitality was incredible.

Payman Langroudi: Is that on the coast? [00:36:40]

Fabian Farbahi: It’s. No, it’s over there. It is on the coast. So north north of Brazil. It’s in the Amazon area. [00:36:45] Um, so I think because they not really not often seen many tourists [00:36:50] there. And my friends and I made such a big effort into learning the Brazilian culture. We [00:36:55] were so interested. We learned some Portuguese as well. So I think they really they really warmed to us and [00:37:00] we really warm to them. So yeah, I think that was up there. Rio of course is it’s [00:37:05] a it’s a good place to go out and party. So we had a lot of fun there. And then Sao Paulo was [00:37:10] was another great university. And the professors there were really kind to us. So I think [00:37:15] we were just very grateful for the whole experience. And I think a lot of the time when you go away, it’s sometimes [00:37:20] people think it’s about the location and, and, um, where you go. But for us, it [00:37:25] was just the people we came across and we were really, um, welcomed so beautifully into their country. So, [00:37:30] yeah, like, I think with Implant dentistry, I was speaking to a few people [00:37:35] about returning to do an implant course in Brazil. So it’s a good excuse to return [00:37:40] to a country that I loved so much.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a there’s a Brazilian implantologist that can put you [00:37:45] in touch with, um, yeah. I mean, travelling young. So important man.

Fabian Farbahi: Oh, 100%. [00:37:50] Like, that was my first big travelling experience, was it? And I think like now I [00:37:55] could see the hype over going around travelling. Um, I just think it [00:38:00] was honestly. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, there’s a there’s it’s one thing booking a five [00:38:05] star hotel somewhere. But I mean listen man, there’s [00:38:10] nothing wrong with it, but yeah, we just got back from Barcelona. The [00:38:15] the hotel. It was it was a Dental thing, actually. But the, the hotel [00:38:20] changed my whole mind on hotels because I’m kind of against hotels now. Yeah, [00:38:25] I like Airbnbs more. Yeah. Like for the same spend.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, so, um, [00:38:30] whatever the spend is, by the way, let’s say you want to spend £1,000 a night. Yeah. [00:38:35] I’d rather spend that thousand pounds on an Airbnb. Yeah, because we have some amazing Airbnbs. [00:38:40] But this hotel, um, the W in Barcelona. [00:38:45] Yeah. It was such a strange thing, dude. First, first of all, once you [00:38:50] checked in at reception trying to get to the lift, some dude goes, room key, please. [00:38:55] You’re like, all right, here’s my room key. And then wherever you’re going, people are checking your room key. I [00:39:00] was like, what the hell’s going on here, man? Why do you keep looking at my room key? Then I realised, because [00:39:05] we’re only there for a weekend. Yeah, the room key was gold. It was absolute. There was huge [00:39:10] queues of people trying to get into the hotel, trying to get to a party in the hotel [00:39:15] because sonar was on at the same time. It was like, you know, loads of footballers and models and things [00:39:20] were at this party. Oh, wow. And your room key would just go straight in or there’d be some rooftop [00:39:25] party. Huge queues of people trying to get in. The whole townspeople, you know, they’re trying to get in, [00:39:30] and the room would just. The room was amazing. Yeah, but it changed my mind on [00:39:35] hotels. Yeah. Like maybe the right. If you are out for a good time, let’s say. Let’s say you want to party. [00:39:40] Yeah. It’d be better being in that hotel than in any Airbnb. Yeah, yeah. [00:39:45] Of course. You know, or whatever you want. If you’re if you’re out to chill [00:39:50] by the, you know, by the sea and be served. Again, it just changed my mind on hotels [00:39:55] a little bit. Yeah, I’d gone against them completely. Yeah, but travel young. I mean, [00:40:00] I’ll tell you where to go next. South Africa.

Fabian Farbahi: Really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Great. Great city.

Fabian Farbahi: Cape town. [00:40:05]

Payman Langroudi: Cape town’s amazing, but the great country. Great country. I haven’t been to Brazil yet, but. But [00:40:10] definitely South Africa.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And Thailand. Have you been to Thailand?

Fabian Farbahi: No. Southeast Asia will probably [00:40:15] definitely be your buddies.

Payman Langroudi: Want to go?

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. Everyone. Everyone. Everyone wants to go to Southeast Asia right now. [00:40:20] Um, but I think that’s what puts me off it a little bit. I love going to the countries that no one knows anything [00:40:25] about, like the China’s or like Japan’s quite. Well. Well, um, explored, [00:40:30] but I think going to the countries where people don’t often see English people and [00:40:35] then you learn so much about the culture, whereas Southeast Asia kind of is becoming more English [00:40:40] than Asian. Yeah, of course, it.

Payman Langroudi: Depends where.

Fabian Farbahi: You go. Um, but I [00:40:45] think countries that people know don’t know much about is where you can explore and is where you can learn so much about [00:40:50] the culture. Um, not to put anything down in Southeast Asia. I will obviously be visiting.

Payman Langroudi: But it depends where you go. Like [00:40:55] you know, Rio is one of the most visited cities in the world.

Fabian Farbahi: Of course.

Payman Langroudi: You know, one hour flight from [00:41:00] Rio. No one ever.

Fabian Farbahi: Knows anything about it. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It depends where you go. I mean, yeah, it’s one of those [00:41:05] things. Um, I love Thailand. It’s a wonderful place. All [00:41:10] right, so let’s project. Let’s go six years forward.

Fabian Farbahi: Okay. Well, [00:41:15] then what.

Payman Langroudi: Would be your ideal from now looking at it from where you are now I think [00:41:20] are we now talking you’re going to own your own practice doing loads of implants.

Fabian Farbahi: No, I don’t think so. Yeah. I [00:41:25] think six years time I’ll still be going into my late 20s. Yeah. Still sort [00:41:30] of looking for experiences, travel like, well travelled around the world. Um, I [00:41:35] think Australia is a classic place where people like to practice. I just like the quality [00:41:40] of life, the weather. Like even when you’re here in London, the weather’s nice. You see a whole different. [00:41:45] Yeah. Like people open their eyes to just living a happier life and smiling a bit more. Yeah. So I think [00:41:50] sort of being exposed to that. The the areas around the world where you can [00:41:55] um.

Payman Langroudi: So so what I’ve noticed is late 20s is when [00:42:00] people start thinking, start my own business.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, they do. [00:42:05] Now are you kind of saying you will delay what the normal [00:42:10] sort of trajectory is by because you’re going to do things abroad because [00:42:15] you’re going to do this, these sort of public health charity things. Are you saying you’re [00:42:20] going to slow down?

Fabian Farbahi: No, I wouldn’t say. I think my difference in approach, and I think since [00:42:25] doing sods is I’d like to try, I, I definitely am going to get, get, be getting involved in businesses [00:42:30] sooner rather than later. Okay. So before this whole trajectory business, I [00:42:35] think the best time to take risks is when you’re young. To be honest.

Payman Langroudi: Definitely.

Fabian Farbahi: You’ve got less. Less, um, [00:42:40] when you’re settled down to a family, then you’ve got other people to look after. Right now, I’ve only really [00:42:45] got myself to look after, so, um, I’m happy to take the risks right now. [00:42:50]

Payman Langroudi: As an estimate. Do you think you’ll you’ll get married, have children or you’re not sure by [00:42:55] what?

Fabian Farbahi: In six years time, ever? Yeah. Of course. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: So so as an estimate. [00:43:00] As a guesstimate.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: At what age do you think you’ll get married?

Fabian Farbahi: 34. [00:43:05] 33. 34. Oh, yeah. And then, um, children, maybe at that [00:43:10] time as well. Um, but I think I’ve got a lot of my youth left to live. How old are you? 22. [00:43:15]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, God. This podcast is going to have to go on another 12 years to see if that comes true.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. No. Yeah. You shouldn’t have [00:43:20] started this. Um, but, yeah, I think I’m [00:43:25] quite keen on just getting involved in business, learning the mistakes early. There’s going to be a lot of failure that [00:43:30] comes your way, but I’m really welcome to it, to be honest. Um, and I think the beautiful thing about [00:43:35] dentistry is a lovely safety net to sort of fall onto. Yeah. That if you, if you sort [00:43:40] of work as a clinician and outside, you’re doing your little side quests and you’re taking on challenges, you’re [00:43:45] taking on businesses, then at least you have that job. We’ve got such. We’re so lucky to have a skill [00:43:50] which is so valuable, so that if things fail, I can fall back and then just go again [00:43:55] after a few months or a few years. So, um, I think I really, I’m really interested in taking [00:44:00] on those challenges and. Right, like, realistically, like you’re only sort of in your 20s once [00:44:05] you want to you want to try try things that not many people think about. Um, [00:44:10] and I think there’s a lot of problems in the world that needs to be solved. So I’d quite like to see if I can solve [00:44:15] those problems and see where it takes me. I think the journey is always like the journey with [00:44:20] suds was really was really beautiful. And, um, managing the people, going [00:44:25] through the challenges of managing people, I really sort of it opened my eyes into the [00:44:30] biggest mistakes are the ones you learn the most from. So go on. Yeah. [00:44:35] Managing people, I think.

Payman Langroudi: What have you learnt about managing people?

Fabian Farbahi: Where [00:44:40] do I start? I think um, it’s easy, it’s easy. Like delegating was [00:44:45] such a tricky, tricky part.

Payman Langroudi: It’s hard.

Fabian Farbahi: It’s harder when people aren’t getting paid to do [00:44:50] the job.

Payman Langroudi: Like, even if they’re getting paid, you know, they’ve got to be there. Hearts got to be in it. Yeah. [00:44:55] To do the right.

Fabian Farbahi: Job, of course.

Payman Langroudi: But you know what you said before, it’s kind of like running a business without [00:45:00] the risk. Yeah, I think that’s a very accurate way of looking at it. Yeah. Because even if you’re paying this group [00:45:05] of people, let’s say we’ve got five people here and they work for me and I’m paying them. You can’t just say, you [00:45:10] do this, you do that, you do that.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. Well, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. The thing is, is about making people feel [00:45:15] appreciated.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Fabian Farbahi: And I think in many ways, because because the job is voluntary, you’re doing [00:45:20] it out of your own time. You’re not getting paid for it. Yeah. There were little reward systems. And then obviously you can make money through [00:45:25] sponsorship and you can use that to reward your committee to feel like they’re working towards something. Um, [00:45:30] so.

Payman Langroudi: What did you learn about motivating people? I think what mistakes did you make at [00:45:35] first? You got better at.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. I think you’re always going to have big characters to deal with. [00:45:40] I think the main thing was, um, making people’s ideas, sort of having [00:45:45] people come up with their own ideas to work towards, so they have autonomy over it. When [00:45:50] you delegate things and I think I was so passionate about suds, I was saying, this is the plan. We’ve got this, this, [00:45:55] this to do. Can you do this? And then once you delegate it and then you kind of chase them up [00:46:00] a bit and they’re not doing it because their heart’s not in it. So what you’ve got to find is what people are truly passionate about when they’re [00:46:05] not getting paid for something. If they love what they do and they feel like it’s their own thing, they’re going [00:46:10] to be so much more motivated to work towards it. So in many ways, it’s sort of thinking about an idea, [00:46:15] then saying, well, what do you guys think of it? They come up with their own ideas. That’s [00:46:20] fine. It’s their own thing and you support them. And I feel like in many ways there were charity events. [00:46:25] There was the Dental, there’s balls, there’s lots of little things going on. There’s sports events, [00:46:30] there’s beads, etc. you’ve sort of got to support every sort of element [00:46:35] in the process. And I was really poor at delegating. I took on way too much.

Payman Langroudi: So do you think the first time you did it, [00:46:40] you were kind of bull in a China shop and sort of got people’s backs [00:46:45] up. And then as you went through, you learned learned how to do it better.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah, 100%. [00:46:50] There was no course I took I didn’t turn up to any of the students union training or anything. I just sort of [00:46:55] went into the dark and just thought, I’ll learn the hard way.

Payman Langroudi: And you came in quite authoritative. [00:47:00]

Fabian Farbahi: I wouldn’t say too authoritative. Maybe my committee, the committee I worked with would say something different, [00:47:05] but I just think my main thing was I had a vision. And I think especially [00:47:10] because it’s a voluntary job, I think if there was someone, if there was a leader and there’s this passage [00:47:15] I read that read that great CEOs are lazy. But I think with this because people [00:47:20] are because they’re volunteering, if they see a leader who is putting so much of their time, so [00:47:25] much effort, they’ll respect the amount of passion you have for it, and then that will [00:47:30] give them a.

Payman Langroudi: Leading by example.

Fabian Farbahi: Whereas if you’ve got someone who’s lazy, who’s just saying, do this, do that, [00:47:35] do all my jobs for me, they’re not going to feel inclined to do the job for you because they don’t see you putting [00:47:40] the effort and showing the passion that they want you to do. Whereas because [00:47:45] I did show that, I put a lot of effort into it, and I loved the job. I think people sort of thought, [00:47:50] you know what? I’ll support him with that. Um, so that took a while to sort of build. [00:47:55] And I think even now I don’t think anyone’s mastered delegation, really.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s difficult. [00:48:00] So definitely there has to be rapport.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The person has to trust you to start [00:48:05] with 100%. A lot of people make that mistake. They go straight into something. Yeah. Without getting [00:48:10] that level of rapport. Even if it’s someone you know. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Let’s say someone working for me for 12 [00:48:15] years. If we’re talking about a new project, we need rapport on the new project. Yeah. And [00:48:20] that’s a kind of a soft skill. Yeah. You’re quite good at. But then after that, what [00:48:25] is the task? Yeah. The broken down parts of that task. What [00:48:30] does success look like? Yeah. And how agree on on [00:48:35] on when you’re going to look at it again together.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And and then do all of that. Yeah. [00:48:40] It’s all well and good talking about it, but doing it, you know, executing on it.

Fabian Farbahi: I [00:48:45] think, um, as well as that, like another way to sort of, I think [00:48:50] I realised how important it is to make people feel appreciated for what they do.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Fabian Farbahi: I’ve never really been the type of [00:48:55] person to say, can you just do this? Like it’s always a please, it’s always manners. And like I said, about what I like about [00:49:00] running a practice is that you sort of integrating your own culture and your morals of life into [00:49:05] running a practice and seeing how people are treated. I’d make sure that I sort of treat people as [00:49:10] if I was the person receiving the not orders, but receiving some like, [00:49:15] methods of communication from a leader. So I would I would make sure I wouldn’t [00:49:20] disrespect anyone at any point. And I think at the end of the day as well, is that you set [00:49:25] you set tasks. You ask if they can do it. You have a phone call with them, um, and [00:49:30] you just learn people’s there are different styles of communication with different people, and you have to tailor that [00:49:35] to, to the person you’re working with. So, um, and like, like I said, dentistry [00:49:40] suds, you learn so many soft skills are so transferable for the outside world. It’d [00:49:45] be a shame not to just get straight into business and get into the, um, throw myself into the deep end [00:49:50] and just learn. Learn as much as possible. Because with suds, I did throw myself into the deep end. I wasn’t ready for it at all. [00:49:55] Um, it was quite stressful process, but I came out of it [00:50:00] becoming a more, more well-rounded. So I’m grateful for the experience.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:50:05] we do think you will have a business, but you’re not sure when?

Fabian Farbahi: Um, [00:50:10] yeah, I think so. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And and the thing that makes you happy about that idea is [00:50:15] the setting, the culture in the business.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. Well, yeah, that’s one of the things.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, [00:50:20] you’re you’re a football fan, right? I know nothing about it. But I suspect different managers [00:50:25] are totally different to each other.

Fabian Farbahi: Oh, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: As far as culture goes.

Fabian Farbahi: Well, that’s like different CEOs or different [00:50:30] business owners are different to each other. That’s what makes them unique.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but but you accept that there are [00:50:35] some, some managers who you know the the reason why they’re so brilliant is that they’re [00:50:40] they’re not so touchy feely. Nice. Yeah. And, and there are some managers [00:50:45] who. That’s what works for them. Yeah. So you’re saying you’re a nice guy and that’s that’s the way you’re [00:50:50] going to run this organisation?

Fabian Farbahi: No. Um. I’m not I’m not saying [00:50:55] that I’ll just run it by being nice to people.

Payman Langroudi: Like, nothing wrong with that.

Fabian Farbahi: No, there is nothing wrong with that. Like, [00:51:00] obviously, I’m not saying that’s my only method of doing it. There’s so many sort of branches to [00:51:05] running an organisation. Being a football manager.

Payman Langroudi: No, but you know, you’re saying. You’re saying I want the culture [00:51:10] to be that when I ask someone to do something, I’m going to put myself in their position. [00:51:15] Yeah. And I’m going to do it in a nice way, I guess. Yeah, yeah. An effective way. But why do [00:51:20] I mean, everyone would say that, right? But why do you think that’s so rare in business? [00:51:25] It is rare.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. I think it’s just because of the hierarchy complex. I [00:51:30] think in business, the higher you are, sort of the more well respected you are, the more likely you [00:51:35] are to disrespect people below you like in the big firms. I hear from my friends in London who are [00:51:40] and when they start off doing the internships, no one will know their name. Like things like that. I think [00:51:45] just put puts me off that. And I think, um, you’re more likely to have like a better environment to work [00:51:50] in. If there’s a happier environment where people feel valued, then business is going to thrive [00:51:55] more. Um, so I think that’s why there’s a big emphasis onto that. Um, but I don’t think it’s the only [00:52:00] way of running a business just being being nice to people and making people feel valued. There’s so many other aspects [00:52:05] to it, but having quality within your team as well. So there’s lots of branches which you can [00:52:10] stem, stem out to, which is going to cause the results. Like you can have a lovely person who’s [00:52:15] who really loves you as a as a leader who loves you, like who really gets on well with [00:52:20] but quality wise, if they’re not delivering the quality of work that you’re wanting [00:52:25] to wanting them to do, then there’s a conversation to be had.

Payman Langroudi: On that subject. Did you end up [00:52:30] firing anyone?

Fabian Farbahi: No, I think sods Isn’t as serious [00:52:35] of a business to just fire someone. Like, I think at the end of the day it is a bit of fun and [00:52:40] people are just doing it out of the kindness of their hearts. No one’s getting paid, like I said, so I didn’t feel like [00:52:45] there was a need to fire anyone and remove them and then cause a whole, um, situation [00:52:50] out of it. So I just thought, like, there’s there’s a saying that [00:52:55] I like that, um, like a good leader. Um, you’re better [00:53:00] off having, um, one sheep lead a group of lions, but you’re [00:53:05] better off having a lion leading a group of sheep. Do you know what I mean? Because a good a [00:53:10] good aspect of a leader is sort of having someone that can uplift people [00:53:15] and uplift your team. Yeah. So I tried to see that as a, as a big role in terms [00:53:20] of, um, if there were people whose minds weren’t in it, finding out why, finding [00:53:25] out what they wanted out of the role, etc., that’s so important to sort of, um, find [00:53:30] out and work out in the first place. And then sort of seeing what they, [00:53:35] what they actually wanted to do with the role and then tailoring, um, how to how to delegate around [00:53:40] that.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the best Dental lecture that you’ve ever seen? [00:53:45] What comes to mind when I say that? Which which one sort of comes to mind?

Fabian Farbahi: Um, one [00:53:50] I did really like, which wasn’t so much on leadership, but it [00:53:55] was just more qualities of life was, um, Simon Chard’s a, um, My friends [00:54:00] conference at BGC Leeds. Um, and it was funny because I [00:54:05] was just reading a book called The Almanac of Navel. Navel. Navel.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’ve [00:54:10] listened to that.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah, yeah. Um, and it was basically that lecture summarised, so it was [00:54:15] just so funny, just like I just thought it was so interesting, like having things, um, just reinstalled [00:54:20] into my brain that I kind of just read through, um, with that book, so. And I [00:54:25] just like the values of it, the importance of community. I’m very I’m quite big on health as well and balancing [00:54:30] that low stress, etc..

Payman Langroudi: So what about clinically?

Fabian Farbahi: Clinically [00:54:35] there’s no standout lecture, to be honest that I’ve seen that I’ve thought wow. But [00:54:40] one thing I did really enjoy, which is away from implants, etc., is the simulation event. Oh, [00:54:45] yeah. Um, the.

Payman Langroudi: Production value of that event.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. Um, I think [00:54:50] simulation was it was very cinematic, I think. And I think. [00:54:55]

Payman Langroudi: Inspirational. Right. Makes you want to get into it?

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah, 100%. I’ve never really considered cosmetic [00:55:00] dentistry or this, um, this sort of. Well, it’s not just cosmetic dentistry, [00:55:05] but it is biomimetic. Biomimetic, um, biomimetic dentistry. But I think the [00:55:10] way it was presented, the speakers worldwide, it was in London, obviously. I think [00:55:15] it was the 10th anniversary. Yeah. That sort of really drew me, drew me into it. And I think I was I was very lucky [00:55:20] to be one of the few students there.

Payman Langroudi: Great event.

Fabian Farbahi: Oh, phenomenal. And the people and the people you.

Payman Langroudi: Speak to [00:55:25] that night. Right.

Fabian Farbahi: We did? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Fabian Farbahi: We partied. We had a good time that night. Um, but yeah, we, [00:55:30] I think the people used to come across as well. Like, that’s what I love about dentistry is the community and the people [00:55:35] you come across. There are people from all over the world, and you listen to their sort of insights and dentistry [00:55:40] and their journey into it. Overall, that’s without a shadow of a doubt, the the [00:55:45] most impressive event I’ve ever seen in my life.

Payman Langroudi: So it was impressive. Oh, yeah. Um, next year in Paris. [00:55:50] So easy to get to next year.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. Not bad.

Payman Langroudi: Although, you know what, dude? Pizza [00:55:55] in Leeds. Yeah. One of the most impressive events I’ve been to.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: No, I mean, [00:56:00] the size of that production.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. Excellent.

Payman Langroudi: And so much stuff going [00:56:05] on.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I think events are a bit broken though. You know, events are a little bit broken. [00:56:10] They haven’t moved on in the same way as dentistry has moved on. Dental events haven’t. [00:56:15] And people don’t want to go to events anywhere near as much as they used to want to go to events. Um, [00:56:20] because there’s all this other resource. What’s your favourite dental resource? Do you follow a [00:56:25] particular site, podcast, whatever like book. Is there a favourite book you’ve had so far?

Fabian Farbahi: I [00:56:30] don’t really read too many Dental books, I think because I like the communication side of things. I’ll read books [00:56:35] about communication just generally and just integrate that into dentistry resources. [00:56:40] I think Instagram is just becoming popular, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Is there a particular page?

Fabian Farbahi: Um, [00:56:45] I just like looking in, like I think there’s a doctor. [00:56:50] Doctor who’s got some good oral surgery bits. The tooth is out. Um, [00:56:55] you.

Payman Langroudi: Like you like surgery, huh?

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah, yeah, I do, um, I think just seeing, um, Instagram [00:57:00] is quite a good way of presenting your portfolio for dentistry, but there’s no one that really stands out that I think I’m, like, [00:57:05] obsessed with dentistry. You do.

Payman Langroudi: You do photography?

Fabian Farbahi: No. You you. I’ve. I’ve tried to [00:57:10] inquire about this with the university, but I think, um, just in Sheffield is they do the [00:57:15] dental photography. You just call someone up to do the dental photography for you, but you do photography in orthodontics [00:57:20] and stuff. But I think it’s quite normal for, um, other. There’s a whole team designated [00:57:25] to dental photography.

Payman Langroudi: 100% want to learn photography though.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Asap. Asap. [00:57:30] You know, it really makes a big difference in terms of getting jobs in terms.

Fabian Farbahi: Of.

Payman Langroudi: Getting [00:57:35] patients. Just learn photography, learn rubberdam. Or maybe you’ve already learned rubberdam, but those [00:57:40] two things.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: As a young dentist, just so super important.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. No. For sure. [00:57:45]

Payman Langroudi: Um, the implant site. Have you thought about how you’re going to learn or not yet?

Fabian Farbahi: Well, [00:57:50] Brazil is one one route I could take. Um, like, I was speaking to clinicians [00:57:55] in Brazil, I thought. I thought there was a big sort of, um, like, [00:58:00] experience based, um, trip there in terms of you can you can there’s there’s a lot [00:58:05] more. There’s they have a more relaxed approach to putting implants in. Yeah. So the more experience [00:58:10] you get, the better you become. So it’ll be interesting. There is a good chance I might go there and [00:58:15] learn there and come back. And maybe.

Payman Langroudi: How did you end up shadowing at Evo? Did you just contact them or.

Fabian Farbahi: So [00:58:20] I did an open day talk in Sheffield. Um, for the open days, [00:58:25] and I put quite a lot of effort into it. I love the presentation sort of aspect of things [00:58:30] like I love presenting, I think so many skills that it can improve in your life. But yeah, I just love presenting [00:58:35] to a big group of people. Um, so yeah, and then one of the mothers [00:58:40] of the sons, um, came up to me and just, uh, we just had a chat, and then I was [00:58:45] at, uh, Birmingham Dentistry show, and then I was walked past [00:58:50] the Evo stand, and then this lady came up to me and just said, um. Oh, your son’s the reason I chose [00:58:55] Sheffield. Um, which we chose Sheffield to go there, like we loved your talk and etc. so I thought it was [00:59:00] and it was lovely. And then she was like, if you’d like to come to shadow for Evo, just let me know. And then we [00:59:05] went for the day and it was a lovely day. And um, so yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which one did you go to?

Fabian Farbahi: Liverpool. [00:59:10] So, um, yeah. Lovely lady called Angela, whose son is coming to Sheffield, so make [00:59:15] sure to look after him.

Payman Langroudi: That was the Implantologist.

Fabian Farbahi: Uh, no. She’s like, I think it’s a practice manager. [00:59:20]

Payman Langroudi: So who’s the implantologist that you were shadowing?

Fabian Farbahi: Um, it was a lady called Verity. [00:59:25] And then she said, oh, you know, um, I think it was Ali from. He’s just started [00:59:30] there. I think he’s doing a training programme at Evo. Um, Ali. And so the two dentists.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [00:59:35] really?

Fabian Farbahi: He was doing it there just by chance. I was like, I recognise you from the YouTube, but [00:59:40] yeah. And he was really friendly as well. So yeah, we just had a really good experience. I think I’d like to go back again just to see like [00:59:45] a full arch implant case upper and lower and seeing that. So [00:59:50] yeah, it was it was a really good experience though.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing man. Um, going [00:59:55] forward now another should we push it another 12 [01:00:00] years? Yeah. Where do you want to be living?

Fabian Farbahi: I [01:00:05] think my problem with choosing where I live is that I’ve not experienced enough of the world to decide. [01:00:10]

Payman Langroudi: I think in the short term. Are you saying not Torquay? Not Sheffield? Yeah. Neither [01:00:15] of those two? No. Like that your next place you will live will be neither of those two.

Fabian Farbahi: No, I [01:00:20] don’t think so.

Payman Langroudi: Not London or you’re not. You haven’t ruled London.

Fabian Farbahi: London. London’s not ruled out. To be fair, there’s a lot of things I love [01:00:25] about London. There’s things.

Payman Langroudi: So maybe London.

Fabian Farbahi: London’s a good chance, I think.

Payman Langroudi: And are you thinking anywhere else?

Fabian Farbahi: Um, [01:00:30] the thing is, is that I love the aspect of living in Australia, but it’s just too far away for from [01:00:35] family.

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Fabian Farbahi: Um, I really like aspects of Europe as well, um, [01:00:40] with the quality of life, with the mentality. But [01:00:45] I just feel like I wouldn’t want to be settled down to one location for the rest of my life, [01:00:50] I think.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. We’re not talking about about your 40 year. Yeah. Where would you [01:00:55] like ideally to live?

Fabian Farbahi: So next year?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Fabian Farbahi: Bath. Bristol. Probably those [01:01:00] two.

Payman Langroudi: So a bit nearer to home.

Fabian Farbahi: Nearer to home for a year.

Payman Langroudi: Southern cities or west? Southwest [01:01:05] city.

Fabian Farbahi: For sure. Yeah. Good. Great cities.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. So I think those [01:01:10] two are probably the likely options. Maybe Cornwall, to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: Far from everything.

Fabian Farbahi: A bit far, [01:01:15] but.

Payman Langroudi: But far from everything.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. Good thing Bath and Bristol is easy to get into London.

Payman Langroudi: I suppose Cornwall’s [01:01:20] not too far from Torquay, but it still is.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. Yeah, it’s a bit. But um. But [01:01:25] yeah, I think bath Bristol probably the likely options.

Payman Langroudi: What are you even doing at the dentistry show in [01:01:30] your fourth year of dental school? Is it because of your suds?

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah, I was just I was [01:01:35] actually just working on speaking to sponsors and things like that.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me what you’ve learned about that.

Fabian Farbahi: Oh, [01:01:40] well, it’s just the the communication building rapport. What are you.

Payman Langroudi: Doing? Just cold going out [01:01:45] to people saying.

Fabian Farbahi: Kind of like cold calling. Just selling. And I think.

Payman Langroudi: Going up to the stands saying I’m [01:01:50] doing this student.

Fabian Farbahi: Thing and just selling, selling a sports day or and I think.

Payman Langroudi: And the [01:01:55] different reactions.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. It’s interesting what you get. Um, but [01:02:00] I think I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Not just talking about on the day, but like the different interactions. Did you find some people much [01:02:05] more up for that and some people ignoring you?

Fabian Farbahi: Well, I think I think it’s a really good thing to sell because [01:02:10] it’s literally like you’ve got access to. Sorry. That’s all right.

Payman Langroudi: How [01:02:15] did that happen?

Fabian Farbahi: You’ve got access to 600 students who are [01:02:20] the future of dentistry. So it’s kind of almost something that’s a bit silly not to invest into because [01:02:25] they’re going to be your future clients. Your future customers.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. But companies don’t think like five [01:02:30] years.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. But that’s the thing. Putting them into that mindset and creating an image and storytelling [01:02:35] is such an effective sales tool. So coming up with them in a pitch cold calling, [01:02:40] like, I love that sort of stuff. The challenge, it’s almost like a similar challenge to having a conversation with someone [01:02:45] about their life. Yeah. Extrapolating information and just thinking like. And [01:02:50] I think just it’s like building a rapport with a patient. Similar, very similar sort of concept [01:02:55] to that. But it’s just different sort of outcomes whether you want to work with them as a sponsorship. But [01:03:00] I’ve always thought the main thing I learnt is that you have to provide [01:03:05] value for them and you want them to get the better deal, because then after that’s going to be a good experience for [01:03:10] them. I’ve always thought that. I’ve never thought just look at them as money and just think that like, I [01:03:15] think that’s where a lot of student societies fail at because they don’t know much about it. I didn’t know much about it. But [01:03:20] over time I’ve really worked on providing value for them. So they thought, you know what? That was a good deal.

Payman Langroudi: As a sponsor, [01:03:25] it’s difficult. Yeah, I noticed that, by the way. I could see you kept on doing that with me. [01:03:30] Okay. We’ve known each other outside of sponsorship, but, um, as [01:03:35] a sponsor. Imagine. Imagine all the different things that all the different groups [01:03:40] that are looking for sponsorship. Mhm. Yeah. Let alone the BSA [01:03:45] things. Yeah. You’ve got the 14 Dental schools themselves each saying Will [01:03:50] you sponsor us. Yeah. Yeah just that. Yeah. Then you’ve got all the real dentists. [01:03:55] Yeah. Events. Yeah. And they run to hundreds of thousands of pounds of sponsorship. [01:04:00] Those ones. Yeah. Then you’ve got the sort of the cosmetic dentists events. Um, [01:04:05] then you’ve got Tom, Dick and Harry, uh, corporate. Yeah. I’ve [01:04:10] got several corporates who force us to sponsor them. Yeah. It’s not even It’s [01:04:15] not even a choice. Yeah it is. Because if we don’t, we know there are big, big customers, so it doesn’t [01:04:20] make any sense. So suddenly you’ve got teams constantly away [01:04:25] at events. Yeah, yeah. And return on investment wise.

Fabian Farbahi: Of course.

Payman Langroudi: Some of [01:04:30] them give you a return and some don’t. Yeah. So, uh, let’s let’s go into [01:04:35] the right at the other end of the scale here. I was in Barcelona for this, [01:04:40] uh, Dental forum, which is a speed dating between suppliers [01:04:45] and corporates. Yeah. Now, the return on that conversation [01:04:50] could be millions of pounds. It really could, depending on who you’re talking to [01:04:55] or whatever. And then. And then you and then you say to me, come and sponsor Bdsa. [01:05:00] Yeah. With this at the at that moment or for the next 3 or 4 years.

Fabian Farbahi: No return. [01:05:05]

Payman Langroudi: Zero return.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course. And, but but we all remember, right, that, you know the defence organisations. [01:05:10] Yeah. They get the students early Love it. And that’s their whole business [01:05:15] model, isn’t it, that people end up with.

Fabian Farbahi: So much into it, don’t they?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Are [01:05:20] you, are you got like a, I can tell you’ve got a special interest in communications [01:05:25] and this sort of thing, but are you like actively searching out information [01:05:30] on that.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. Um, I love watching Ted talks. Um, I love [01:05:35] watching videos on it just because I just think it’s such a useful skill to know. And, [01:05:40] um, I just find them. I find things that I sort of want to see, I see myself doing in the future [01:05:45] and just think, how am I going to sort of pave the path to get to that point? But yeah, [01:05:50] I’ve just always I think I’ve always had a love of speaking to people and getting to know people. And then but.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:05:55] knew someone who watched you on that stage and they said you were an absolute natural [01:06:00] on stage. So were you always super confident [01:06:05] like that? Because like most normal people, not even students, most people on the [01:06:10] street, if you told them you have to stand up in front of a 200 people and talk. Would find that really [01:06:15] hard?

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. Um, no, I don’t think I was like that from young. I think [01:06:20] the turning point was leaving Taunton. I think I felt like I was.

Payman Langroudi: Kind [01:06:25] of reinvent yourself.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah, I felt like. Not that it was a cage, but I was locked up [01:06:30] in a box of a of a school system, which meant that I was only I could only make friends with [01:06:35] a there’s a year group of 70 people, and then there’s in a small town. And [01:06:40] then I think the day I moved to a city, I was exposed to a massive [01:06:45] group of people that I just completely sort of changed, and it just changed my mentality, [01:06:50] changed the confidence I feel. And then on top of that, [01:06:55] getting trains back and forth. You speak to people, the experience and all that stuff. You just become way more confident [01:07:00] as a person. I think, um, maybe at the start I was faking it and then it just became natural. But [01:07:05] yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know what about it. I think it was just I’ve always then I’ve just [01:07:10] built a natural interest of getting of a built a natural want to [01:07:15] sort of be interested in people and sort of get to know people. And I felt like, um, [01:07:20] it was like reading a story, like reading a novel when you’re sort of getting a story out of, I don’t know, someone in [01:07:25] their 80s, 90s who’s lived a fruitful life. I’ve loved sort of following that journey and [01:07:30] them telling me a story about that. I just find it so captivating. So I think [01:07:35] just through experiences, it’s just sort of led me to the person I’ve become. [01:07:40] So, um, I sort of, kind of want to keep growing at that sort of rate and become like.

Payman Langroudi: A great skill [01:07:45] to have great skill to have. But but, you know, some people will work on it and not get it. And [01:07:50] then other people, like it seems to come more naturally.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. I think, um, people [01:07:55] like to say like I’m like a junior version of my dad. Like my dad loves to go around and speak to people.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Fabian Farbahi: Is he like, [01:08:00] yeah, yeah. So maybe I’ve got it had some element from that. But I think it’s something [01:08:05] that is quite not, not new to me. But since starting university has become more and more natural. [01:08:10]

Payman Langroudi: What do your parents do?

Fabian Farbahi: My dad, he’s one of those Iranian parents [01:08:15] that you don’t know what he does, but he just does it. Um, but, yeah, like, works with land, things like that. Um. [01:08:20] And then my mum. Property. Yeah. Properties. Things like that. Yeah. Um, then my mum, um, [01:08:25] used to be a fashion designer. Oh, really? But then sort of more just chills at home, [01:08:30] like, looks after my brother and things like that. So. Yeah. Um, the first person who’s [01:08:35] sort of in my whole family is very business orientated. Um, so I’m first person to sort [01:08:40] of really go into healthcare, um, and do dentistry or medicine. So. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. [01:08:45]

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s end it with the usual questions. Fantasy dinner party. Three [01:08:50] guests.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive? Who are you gonna have?

Fabian Farbahi: It’s [01:08:55] a good question. Um, I think first [01:09:00] person probably in there would be, uh. I’ve always loved football, [01:09:05] but I’d say like a messy just to just out of like [01:09:10] my all and like, just.

Payman Langroudi: Out of.

Fabian Farbahi: Respect. Yeah. Just out of respect. I just absolutely love him because, like, I’d probably [01:09:15] have to learn fluent Spanish beforehand. Um, I think he would be a really, really [01:09:20] good one to sort of speak to and everything. Um, second one. [01:09:25] Oh, I think Obama’s [01:09:30] a really good one to have. I think, yeah, I think he’s just so interesting. I love the way he [01:09:35] presents himself. Yeah. Um, nothing to do with his politics as a as a whole. But I just [01:09:40] think the way he speaks, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, there’s a there’s a series of six, seven [01:09:45] podcasts. Obama and Bruce Springsteen, um, talking about America. [01:09:50]

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant.

Fabian Farbahi: Brilliant, brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: I can’t remember what it’s called, but if [01:09:55] you put it in, it’ll come up.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The way that guy talks.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah. Oh.

Payman Langroudi: Unbelievable. [01:10:00]

Fabian Farbahi: Like, honestly, it’s like, I know we’ve spoken a lot about communication, but the way he communicates himself [01:10:05] and holds himself.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I remember was Clinton was before your time, right?

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Clinton [01:10:10] was amazing. Amazing.

Fabian Farbahi: Well, it’s a common thing with.

Payman Langroudi: Obama, but Obama.

Fabian Farbahi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Even [01:10:15] outdid Clinton in terms of communication.

Fabian Farbahi: It’s a common thing with, um, all US presidents, and.

Payman Langroudi: I wouldn’t [01:10:20] say all of them, but those.

Fabian Farbahi: Those two in particular. But yeah, the.

Payman Langroudi: Way Blair Blair was before your time as well. [01:10:25]

Fabian Farbahi: When I was young.

Payman Langroudi: Blair was a master as.

Fabian Farbahi: Well. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Communication. Um, so go on. Obama. [01:10:30] Uh, messy. Who else?

Fabian Farbahi: I think, um. [01:10:35] I’m just trying to think of his name. The UK [01:10:40] prime Minister, Benjamin Disraeli.

Payman Langroudi: Disraeli. Why him? [01:10:45]

Fabian Farbahi: I’ve just heard things I’ve read. Read novels about him. Um. And [01:10:50] I’ve just like the way he made people, like, adore him. And how, like he [01:10:55] was a Jewish man and obviously managed to become prime minister.

Payman Langroudi: Prime minister? Yeah.

Fabian Farbahi: I just thought. [01:11:00] And just the stories I’ve heard from him, And make him seem [01:11:05] very fascinating to know. And I think communication has not changed much in terms of how people present themselves [01:11:10] for a long time. So I think Benjamin Disraeli would be a really interesting person to speak to. There’s people like [01:11:15] Robert Greene and stuff as well. Who’s that, Robert Greene? Uh, he’s just read book. He’s just [01:11:20] written books he speaks a lot about, um, uh, people in the past, [01:11:25] um, like Greek mythology and stuff and just how that links to, um, sort [01:11:30] of a lot of communication methods, um, and how different [01:11:35] times have been. So he’d, he’d be another person. He’s still alive today. And. Yeah. [01:11:40] So I think that’s quite a nice, interesting table.

Payman Langroudi: For guests. But I’ll [01:11:45] let you off.

Fabian Farbahi: Well because because Robert Greene speaks a lot about Benjamin Disraeli.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, there you go.

Fabian Farbahi: I [01:11:50] would like to just sit and just see the two speak to each other and just maybe get involved a bit as well. But [01:11:55] yeah, that’d be interesting.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive pleasure man.

Fabian Farbahi: Like really.

Payman Langroudi: Enjoyed it. Hopefully we’ll see [01:12:00] what happens in three years time. We will. Yeah. And hopefully, um, I can try and accelerate [01:12:05] you. And now that you’ve put it down. Yeah. You yourself are going to try and get to these lofty [01:12:10] goals.

Fabian Farbahi: We’ll see. Well, we’ll make it happen. I’ve put it out to the world now, so I’ve got no choice. Thanks [01:12:15] very much.

Payman Langroudi: Payman appreciate it man.

[VOICE]: This is Dental [01:12:20] Leaders the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [01:12:25] leaders in dentistry. Your hosts [01:12:30] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

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