Month: January 2026

Prav Solanki: So when people message me and say, hey, what vitamins are you taking? What supplements are you taking? What’s [00:00:05] the diet that you’re following? You look like you’re making progress. This is not a one size fits all right? I [00:00:10] do my blood markers every three months. I get a comprehensive panel of my urea’s [00:00:15] electrolytes using these, you know, hormone panels, full lipid profile, [00:00:20] including lipoproteins and stuff like that. And I adjust the supplementation, [00:00:25] my diet and everything according to that. I make some changes. Three [00:00:30] months later, I retest and see what the impact is and then adjust things. What [00:00:35] works for me will not work for you.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:40] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:45] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in [00:00:50] dentistry. Your hosts [00:00:55] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome [00:01:00] to my solo 2026 podcast [00:01:05] episode. Usually I record this around Christmas time early [00:01:10] New Year, so right at the beginning of January and just put together [00:01:15] my thoughts on what the last 12 months went like, what the next 12 months looks [00:01:20] like, and, um, just some general thoughts and feelings around conversations [00:01:25] that I’ve been having with clients and customers. I guess Christmas was a busy [00:01:30] time for me. We’d been travelling away on holiday just beforehand, and [00:01:35] then a lot of family time. Had a family member who was, um, hit [00:01:40] with ill health. Um, unfortunately. So during that time, it was it was [00:01:45] quite intense. And what I’ll say there was, there was a lot of back and forth. I don’t need [00:01:50] to really go into the details, but other than, you know, what you can take away from this is, [00:01:55] um, you think everything’s okay in life, right? You think that. [00:02:00] And look, it wasn’t my health or someone so immediate, [00:02:05] but it was a family member close to us. And, um, I think [00:02:10] you end up in a situation where you think life’s swimming along, no financial issues, [00:02:15] no health issues, and then all of a sudden, from A to B, things [00:02:20] can flip overnight for all of you. Um, and [00:02:25] my wife always says this to me. She always says, look, life’s really good at the moment. [00:02:30] And all that makes me think is that there’s something else around the corner [00:02:35] that’s not so good.

Prav Solanki: Because really, really good doesn’t last forever. And she’s [00:02:40] always said this to me and we say, why? Why are you such a pessimist? And her view on [00:02:45] this is not to think of the good times as negative, but but her view is [00:02:50] make the most of the good times because bad times are [00:02:55] around the corner, no matter how, how, how bad that is. Whether it’s, you know, if you count [00:03:00] bad times from, I don’t know, 50 to 100 and it’s 51, it’s still no [00:03:05] better than it is today, but it could be 99. Um, and so her view [00:03:10] has always been, look, whilst we are experiencing the good times, let’s make hay while the sun [00:03:15] shining. Right. Let’s, let’s really capitalise on those good times and be present and [00:03:20] absorb that. And I’ve been the guy who hasn’t really sat back [00:03:25] and appreciated that, but she has made me think about that deeply anyway. The good news is [00:03:30] that particular family member is bouncing back now and all is good. But [00:03:35] but my point is, over Christmas, it wasn’t necessarily the best Christmas that we’ve [00:03:40] had, but we still managed to spend a lot of family time together. Um, but I [00:03:45] didn’t get that. What I would call that Christmas window, that solo [00:03:50] time where I sit back and I reflect on the last 12 months and [00:03:55] what the next 12 months is looking like, and do a little bit of deep reflection and planning.

Prav Solanki: Just [00:04:00] haven’t had time to stop and do that and then slap bang straight into the new year. Um, [00:04:05] I think it’s just been as full steam ahead, [00:04:10] um, as possible. Um, but I have been thinking [00:04:15] about, well, what does 2026 look like for me and the business. [00:04:20] Um, and so I’m just going to talk through what I’ve been thinking [00:04:25] about and what my plan is for the next 12 months, some [00:04:30] of which some of you will resonate, some of which some of you will just not. And [00:04:35] there may be elements, um, that may be relevant for you, but for me, 2026 [00:04:40] is about prioritising health. And what I mean by that [00:04:45] is in terms of time and non-negotiables, very, very easy when you’re running a business, [00:04:50] when you have a family, when you’ve got duties in and around outside of [00:04:55] that, to sort of say to yourself, oh, I’ll just grab some junk food, I’ll eat some crap [00:05:00] or, um, I’ll skip this gym session. I won’t really, [00:05:05] um, train today. I’ll train tomorrow, or I’ll miss my cardio session [00:05:10] because I’ve already done my weight session this week and and it won’t really matter. [00:05:15] I think the mindset that I’ve approached this year in, and this was kicking in towards [00:05:20] the end of last year as well, is that I’m going to prioritise health above and beyond [00:05:25] everything else. And what I mean by that is above and beyond family, above and beyond my commitments [00:05:30] to my children, taking them to their classes, appointments, things like that and [00:05:35] above and beyond work.

Prav Solanki: Um, I think there’s a couple of reasons [00:05:40] for me looking at that. I think as I get older, I’m more cognisant of my [00:05:45] it’s quite sad to say this, quite, quite cognisant of my mortality, but I’m also [00:05:50] quite cognisant of how I feel within [00:05:55] myself as a person right? When I’m in good health, [00:06:00] when I’m cardiovascularly fit, when I’m strong. And it’s all relative, right? But [00:06:05] I’m talking about for myself. I feel bloody great. I feel great at work, I feel great around [00:06:10] my kids, etc., etc., right? And when I’m not in the peak of my [00:06:15] health, everything else is just that little bit less [00:06:20] powerful in my life. And so the decision I made this [00:06:25] time around is I put together a strength program [00:06:30] and a cardio program for myself, and with the help of one of my really close friends, a guy [00:06:35] called Danny Watson, who’s been on this podcast before. Ex-military guy. He’s [00:06:40] a dentist, ex CrossFit level one coach used to be my PT. So [00:06:45] Danny sat me down and we went through what my training program would look like [00:06:50] for this year. So I’ve put myself together a strength program and a [00:06:55] cardio program and then some mobility stuff. All of that is factored [00:07:00] in my diary.

Prav Solanki: Like a meeting or like an appointment with a client. So it’s non-negotiable. [00:07:05] But there have been events that have tried to take me away from that. Even [00:07:10] the so far this year, you know, 26th of January, um, there have been 2 or 3 training [00:07:15] sessions I could have made an excuse for. I could have said, you know what? I get this client [00:07:20] meeting in or I will, um, I’ll take my little one to [00:07:25] gymnastics because my wife can’t or whatever. Right. But this has been a complete non-negotiable [00:07:30] for me, and so far, so good health food wise. Eating really, really well. There’s [00:07:35] no such thing as the perfect diet. And it’s different things for different people, right? I’m going to be pushing out some more [00:07:40] health content, but I think what’s key here is you only need to [00:07:45] jump on Instagram or social media, or do a quick Google search and listen to some of [00:07:50] these experts. And it’ll be the carnivore diet, the keto diet, the the [00:07:55] low carb diet, the whatever, right? There’s so many different [00:08:00] variations of what is the perfect way to eat, what [00:08:05] I know is the perfect way to eat for me. And I’ve designed my [00:08:10] program around, first of all, my beliefs. So, um, and my way of living. Right? [00:08:15] So I’m vegetarian, not because I’m massively into animal rights or anything like that. [00:08:20] That that doesn’t drive me. It was a decision.

Prav Solanki: I grew up as a vegetarian. I started eating meat when [00:08:25] I was at university. Daughter came home from school one day and said, I want to be vegetarian and thought, [00:08:30] Crikey, here we go. I wonder why that is. So then I thought it was [00:08:35] a fad and me and my wife sat down and we were. We were like, you know, you get, you get the nutrition, you [00:08:40] get the protein from the meat, so on and so forth. And so we asked her, why do you want to be vegetarian? [00:08:45] And she said, do you know what, dad? Whenever I look at my plate and I see what’s on it, [00:08:50] I think very deeply about what that used to be in the life it used to have, and it deeply upsets [00:08:55] me. And we couldn’t argue with that. So we supported her. And, you know, a [00:09:00] decade or so later, probably even longer now. And when we supported her, the entire [00:09:05] family became vegetarian. Right. But with that comes its challenges, right. Getting good quality proteins in [00:09:10] getting the volume of protein that you need to maintain a certain level of muscle mass or [00:09:15] grow. And so I need to design my diet in and around that. [00:09:20] So it’s a protein heavy diet, fairly low carb I would say on the whole [00:09:25] I am in ketogenesis most of the time. Um, because that works for [00:09:30] me. But that’s not the right diet for everyone else.

Prav Solanki: So when people message me and say, hey, what vitamins [00:09:35] are you taking? What supplements are you taking? What’s the diet that you’re following? You look like you’re making progress. [00:09:40] This is not a one size fits all right? I do my blood markers. Every three months, [00:09:45] I get a comprehensive panel of my urea electrolytes using these, you know, hormone [00:09:50] panels, full lipid profile, including lipoproteins and stuff [00:09:55] like that. And I they adjust the supplementation, my diet and everything according [00:10:00] to that. I make some changes. Three months later I retest and see what [00:10:05] the impact is and then adjust things. What works for me will not work for you. And [00:10:10] so when people ask me for advice on social media, what are you taking here? What are you doing here? What’s [00:10:15] your training split like? What’s that? Um, doesn’t make sense because [00:10:20] this is right for me. At my age, with my genetics and with the way [00:10:25] my body responds to things. And it doesn’t mean you can pick that formula [00:10:30] up and do the same for you. And I think the same applies in business as [00:10:35] it does with health. And I think interestingly, you know, 18 [00:10:40] months ago I sold my baby, I sold my business the fresh to [00:10:45] a Giglio. And it was a really, really difficult decision for me to make. But it came at [00:10:50] the right time in my life. The financial benefits of that were right [00:10:55] for me at the right time.

Prav Solanki: And it’s not the first time I’ve sold a business. I have exited businesses [00:11:00] a couple of times, and the way I have thought about this and the [00:11:05] impact on our financial life, my workload, um, [00:11:10] all of the above really has been different at each stage of my [00:11:15] life and the way I’ve thought about things, and I’ll touch on that in a second. I always [00:11:20] used to say to people that I am unemployable, never had a real job. [00:11:25] I’ve never been employed, but it was very clear to me that the majority of the space [00:11:30] where I spend my time, which is in my agency, the fresh, is [00:11:35] where I was going to be in the future. But as an employee, after that transaction [00:11:40] went through approximately 18 months ago, Andy Sloan became [00:11:45] my new boss. I was an employee day, one day before the transaction. [00:11:50] I was the boss. I owned the show. I ran the place. Day two. It was no longer [00:11:55] me. I was no longer in charge and had to report to somebody and reach out [00:12:00] for decisions, even if it was just making tiny financial decisions. It just didn’t feel right anymore. It wasn’t [00:12:05] my business, right? Interestingly, it’s been great being an employee. It’s [00:12:10] been great having the pressure come off me. And yes, it’s been [00:12:15] great that I’ve had a substantial financial transaction that has put [00:12:20] me in a position where the way I think about things and think [00:12:25] about money and think about the future of my family has changed massively. [00:12:30]

Prav Solanki: But that concept of now letting go, I’m still in the business. I [00:12:35] have no ambitions and no desire to do anything else. You know, I [00:12:40] advise so many business owners, practices, people in and outside [00:12:45] of dentistry about sort of M&A activity, exiting, etc., etc. [00:12:50] and it’s time to think psychologically about it, right? When you sell your business, do you want to walk away forever and hand [00:12:55] the keys over. Step into the sunset and disappear. [00:13:00] What do you want to carry on running that business? Is that what motivates you? Or [00:13:05] have you got motivation to go again? Yeah. Fire up that engine. Get [00:13:10] your entrepreneurial spirit going and go again. At this moment in time, I’ve [00:13:15] got zero desire of starting anything new. It’s not because I’ve run out of energy. [00:13:20] It’s just at this stage in my life, I think I’m in a consolidation phase [00:13:25] where I actually want to consolidate and cash in whatever [00:13:30] time, whatever the luxury of time that exit process has brought me to [00:13:35] spend on my health and spend with my family under [00:13:40] the protection and stability of the business that I am currently involved [00:13:45] in. So that is where my head is at now. It doesn’t mean I’ll be there in six, [00:13:50] ten, 12 years time, but currently for the for the medium term, at least [00:13:55] for the next 4 or 5 years.

Prav Solanki: That’s where my headspace is at at the moment. Children are still young, [00:14:00] and rather than throwing myself into something new with the luxury of time that [00:14:05] I have now and the people that I’ve got around me to support me, I can say [00:14:10] I feel really privileged to be able to do what I want with my time. And at the moment, I think throwing [00:14:15] myself into work and a new business or a new venture or something like that isn’t something I’m interested [00:14:20] in. I’m interested in growing and building with my [00:14:25] current support team around me and whatever time I have left, which is a lot more than I used to have when [00:14:30] I was the sole business owner. I’m spending it with my kids and my wife, and that [00:14:35] for me is a massive, massive luxury. Um, having [00:14:40] sold the business, um, as well as having a new boss, Andy Sloan, I’ll say one thing about [00:14:45] him. He’s been the best boss I’ve ever had. And we joke about this because he’s. And [00:14:50] he’ll turn round to me and go, Prav. But I’m the only boss you’ve ever had. But you know what he’s done. He’s [00:14:55] left me alone. He supported me whenever I’ve needed it. And [00:15:00] he’s been there to challenge me when I thought I was right. And I probably wasn’t. [00:15:05] Or when I thought I was right and I was. But still there to challenge me.

Prav Solanki: And [00:15:10] the great thing about being involved with a business like a Giglio is I am surrounded [00:15:15] by a lot of people who are a lot smarter than me. And [00:15:20] that in itself is incredibly rewarding. I find it just inspiring [00:15:25] to be able to reach out to our CEO on WhatsApp, Ben Betts, and just [00:15:30] get some advice from him, or ask him to challenge me. Same with [00:15:35] Andy, same with, um, you know, other people within the business, whether it’s our [00:15:40] CTO or CFO and all these people in the C-suite who’ve been there, done it so many times. [00:15:45] I’m just hungry for knowledge, information and growth, personal growth. And [00:15:50] I feel like I’m surrounded by people in an environment that’s just really, really [00:15:55] healthy for my own growth. Part and parcel of my growth over the next. I think [00:16:00] 12 months is going to be a lot more of the stuff that I really, really [00:16:05] enjoy doing. So I love public speaking, I love educating, [00:16:10] and I love teaching and agility have supported me in that in terms of [00:16:15] helping me hire new people that have stepped into, let’s say, partially my [00:16:20] shoes. Right. Taking over some roles and responsibilities. Some of my existing team have stepped up. Just [00:16:25] made a new hire, a guy called Matt Ramsey who’s got massive agency experience, um, [00:16:30] has taken things to a new level. He just started after Christmas and I can see the changes [00:16:35] he’s making already, um, to the business, which has allowed me to sort [00:16:40] of step into a slightly different role within the business.

Prav Solanki: And that’s been great. [00:16:45] But once again, something I asked for and the Giglio fully supported me on this. I [00:16:50] think it’s really exciting at the moment that I’m part of a business that has got this [00:16:55] one ecosystem to support Dental businesses from, you know, [00:17:00] their HR team, management, compliance, marketing and [00:17:05] now also with the recent acquisition of PPD dental plans as well. [00:17:10] Crm systems are melting that whole ecosystem together. Um, just seeing how [00:17:15] the CTO team are embracing AI, melting these systems together [00:17:20] to create one ecosystem to support dental practices, education as well. It’s [00:17:25] great being part of that, great being on the inside. And I’m learning lots. [00:17:30] But going back to the public speaking piece, quite a lot of that this year. Um, [00:17:35] I’m being more picky about which speaking gigs I [00:17:40] accept. Um, and that’s primarily, I think, because I want [00:17:45] to accept those sort of talks or gigs where I’m at, where I’m actually putting out a lot more value, [00:17:50] or where I’m being challenged by what type of content to produce. [00:17:55] What type of delivery that the people who are hiring me want. And what [00:18:00] outcomes they want. Um, so I’ve got I’ve got some really, really, really great opportunities [00:18:05] coming up that are going to challenge me. And for me, I think that’s really important. [00:18:10]

Prav Solanki: This year I’ve also over the last sort of 3 or 4 months, [00:18:15] there’s something I’ve always done is and I’ve touched upon this earlier, is advising [00:18:20] a lot of clients on their end game or the exit process, [00:18:25] I think partially because I’ve been through it a few times. Dental practices a business I had beforehand [00:18:30] and now more recently, the agency. But actually also I [00:18:35] have seen numerous practices go through that process. I’ve helped numerous practices through [00:18:40] the due diligence process and advised them on that. I’ve got about four clients who are [00:18:45] going through a process right now, and I anticipate probably within the next 90 [00:18:50] days, they will have sold their business for various reasons. A lot [00:18:55] of a lot of practices are being approached now. There’s a new corporate on the market. I’ll touch base on that in a second, [00:19:00] but it’s now the right time to sell your dental practice. The [00:19:05] answer to that question is it depends. I get asked this a lot. Is it the right time? [00:19:10] Should I wait a couple of years until the multiples stabilise or go up? Should I [00:19:15] crank my Ebit up a little bit more, my net adjusted profit so that I can get more [00:19:20] out of the the other end? Um, and my answer to this question [00:19:25] is always the same. And it will always be the same. And the answer is it depends [00:19:30] and it depends on your circumstances.

Prav Solanki: So yes, [00:19:35] the market is definitely not as buoyant or as exciting [00:19:40] as it was when I sold my practice in the post-Covid boom, for example, [00:19:45] right, where there were multiple offers coming in, multiples were an all time [00:19:50] high. Um, there were various transactions going on in the marketplace, and it [00:19:55] really, really was a seller’s market. There’s not not as many corporates mopping up practices [00:20:00] at the moment. They’re being a little bit more selective. There’s different partnership models coming out. Multiples [00:20:05] are nowhere near what they used to be. So is now a good time to sell? Well, if [00:20:10] your overall goal and your overall aim is to maximise [00:20:15] your exit valuation over your lifetime and you have time on your side, the answer is [00:20:20] no. It’s not the best time to sell. But if your personal circumstances are such that [00:20:25] you’re getting towards the end of your career, you’ve had enough. You can’t [00:20:30] be. You know you’re stressed about the ongoing day to day management. You want to [00:20:35] step back. You want to realise some cash out of the business and hand over [00:20:40] the reins for some of it. You’ve just had enough. And it’s got to the point where that money equation [00:20:45] is not important enough, right? Different people have different circumstances. [00:20:50] So for the for the handful of practices that I’m advising at the moment, and helping them through that, [00:20:55] through this process now is definitely the perfect time for them to sell, [00:21:00] because what they’re doing is they’re buying themselves time, right.

Prav Solanki: And one [00:21:05] of the things I will tell you is this that time is probably one of the biggest luxuries [00:21:10] that you can have the older you get. Certainly I’ve realised, um, just [00:21:15] runs away from you. And the biggest lesson to me is actually from my children when [00:21:20] I think about this. But if selling your practice right now buys [00:21:25] you the time, buys you the freedom right now so that you’ve got freedom [00:21:30] of headspace. So you’ve got freedom of being able to do what you want, go where you want, wherever [00:21:35] you want, not having to deal with the finances on a Saturday or a Sunday, or [00:21:40] deal with calls because you’ve now got a HR department and step away for those things [00:21:45] and crystallise some of those gains at a lower tax rate [00:21:50] than you would if you were pulling that money out personally. Then go for [00:21:55] it. And there’s various bits of advice. I mean, if you’re thinking of selling your practice and your limited [00:22:00] company structure, I’m sure you know your accountants can advise you. There is a way in which you can look at [00:22:05] what you’re going to do with your money over the next 12 months to crystallise the net [00:22:10] gain in the most tax efficient way. Um, and those are the sort of conversations I’m having [00:22:15] with some practitioners at the moment. Interestingly, um, [00:22:20] a relatively new player on the market.

Prav Solanki: Um, and [00:22:25] by the way, I’ve got no affiliation or I’ve not even spoken to them to any great length, but [00:22:30] they’ve come on the market with a new model. Um, so they’re called de novo partners, [00:22:35] and it’s a really interesting model. So they come along and they say, look, calculate [00:22:40] your Ebit and we’ll give you a guaranteed multiple and we’ll give [00:22:45] you 70% upfront. Now over the next X number of years let’s call it five years. [00:22:50] You need to guarantee that Ebit. So this is a model. Here’s [00:22:55] a guarantee the net adjusted profit over the next five years. And what we mean by that is personally [00:23:00] guarantee it. So if the Ebit goes down pound for pound you’ve got to pay it back. [00:23:05] And that can be either paid back out of your associate agreement, or it can be paid back [00:23:10] out of your money that you’ve received or whatever. Right. But [00:23:15] what the model does is it offers the opportunity to crystallise, let’s say, 70% [00:23:20] at a reasonably high up. Well, it’s [00:23:25] not a great multiple, but but a reasonable multiple in current market conditions. But [00:23:30] then you’re locked in for, let’s say, five years, right. If you don’t hit those targets, you’re paying it back. [00:23:35] There’s no other model like it at the moment, right. So, you know, [00:23:40] is this the right thing for everyone? Absolutely not. There are certain clients I would say [00:23:45] don’t sign it.

Prav Solanki: And the reason for that is those particular clients want to sell and [00:23:50] walk away. That business model is not for those people, but if you’re in [00:23:55] it for the next 4 or 5 years and you’re confident you can either continue to grow or maintain your business, [00:24:00] it is definitely the right deal for you. And so when [00:24:05] thinking about is it the right time to sell? I think you’ve got to think about is it the right business [00:24:10] model for you moving forward. Imagine you end up in a partnership like this and [00:24:15] you have to guarantee an Ebit and all hell breaks loose and, [00:24:20] you know, performance drops. You lose the, you know, the wind in your sails or whatever. [00:24:25] Right? As that performance drops, you’re having to pay back out of your own pocket [00:24:30] over the next five years. And it’s personally guaranteed. Not a great situation to be [00:24:35] in if your heart is not in it. So it’s a really complex situation [00:24:40] when you’re selling your practice and your business, and a lot to think about. [00:24:45] To be honest, I honestly wish I’d have had this advice 15 [00:24:50] years ago. I wish somebody had sat down with me and explained this whole process. [00:24:55] And that brings me to my next point. 12 months ago, myself and [00:25:00] Dev Patel started a course start scale exit. I’d given up [00:25:05] coaching. Um, so as I’d exited from my business, I was doing a lot [00:25:10] of 1 to 1 business coaching.

Prav Solanki: Right? But very, very time intensive and heavy. And [00:25:15] that’s something I’ve stopped doing now. I don’t do any 1 to 1 business coaching, but I really love [00:25:20] putting out value and knowledge into the ecosystem where I can help others practice owners. [00:25:25] So sat over dinner one day with Dev Patel just over 12 [00:25:30] months ago and he said, look, why don’t we launch a leadership course helping [00:25:35] people, either new practice owners or wannabe [00:25:40] practice owners, or those that are the end of the game and they want to exit and want [00:25:45] to go through that process. Um, and we put together a 12 month curriculum. [00:25:50] The turn up to, I don’t know, ten, 11 days of education and we [00:25:55] split it between us. We get some speakers in and we put together a really, really comprehensive program, and we provide [00:26:00] some in the middle of that, some coaching and some advice. And, and it [00:26:05] was a great way for me to carry on delivering coaching to a certain extent, but [00:26:10] without the intense time sink of 1 to 1 [00:26:15] coaching, which is both both time in terms of personal time and emotionally very, very, [00:26:20] um, heavy. And so we put together this, this course which, which, [00:26:25] you know, starts with vision and strategic planning, emotional intelligence, communication, sales, [00:26:30] marketing, patient growth, leadership and impact, financial mastery from [00:26:35] understanding how to read a balance sheet, understanding what your accountants telling you.

Prav Solanki: Calculating [00:26:40] your Ebit, Ebit, calculating your exit valuation, growth, scaling, future planning. [00:26:45] Operational efficiency. Legal compliance. Building a high performance [00:26:50] team. Patient centred care. Days covering all of those different aspects. And [00:26:55] we started our first cohort and the feedback has been phenomenal. [00:27:00] It’s been great. And although I’m incredibly biased, I’m not ashamed [00:27:05] or embarrassed to pitch and talk on here that I feel is the best piece [00:27:10] of education that either a current practice owner could get [00:27:15] who is looking to either grow from where they are or planning an exit, [00:27:20] or wannabe a new practice owner. It’s incredibly valuable because you [00:27:25] you’ll be, first of all, surrounded by the network who are at different stages of that which you learn so [00:27:30] much from, but also get the insight from, you know, someone like dev who [00:27:35] has been there, done it and made it. I mean, his growth has been phenomenal in such [00:27:40] a short space of time. Um, from zero to I don’t know where he’s at now, 60 practices [00:27:45] or something like that, but but there’s so much I learned from him. If I need some advice, [00:27:50] even if it’s for a client or for myself, pick up the phone and speak to them. He’s my, um, he’s my go to guy [00:27:55] when it comes to business. So, um, start scale Exitcode UK if [00:28:00] it’s something you’re interested in or anything that I’ve said resonates with you, just just click [00:28:05] on that site and have a poke through.

Prav Solanki: I think our next cohort starts around the end of March, 10 [00:28:10] to 12 delegates, um, real sort of mastermind level coaching [00:28:15] with dedicated sessions on different aspects of practice growth. It really [00:28:20] is a powerful program that certainly our delegates have got amazing, [00:28:25] um, feedback out of some of them currently. Now, who will I think shortly [00:28:30] be going through an exit process? There’s some new to be practice owners on that course [00:28:35] who are who are stepping into that, um, in the next six months and are doing that armed with the information [00:28:40] I wish I had years ago. So, yeah. Um, that’s um, [00:28:45] start scale exit. And that’s my that’s my little sales pitch to you guys. If it’s right [00:28:50] for you. Um, just jump on the website, um, and inquire if it’s [00:28:55] not. That’s fine. And then I think the final thing I just want [00:29:00] to touch base on is what’s changed for me as a [00:29:05] consequence of exiting. Right. I think there’s a few things that have changed. Um, and I don’t [00:29:10] think it gets talked about enough. And one of them is my relationship with money. And [00:29:15] I’ve sat back and I’ve thought about what that has been over the last, I [00:29:20] don’t know, 18, 19 years of being in business. Right. Initially it [00:29:25] was a survival game. Right. Trying to make ends meet, being my own boss and [00:29:30] learning leadership, making mistakes, being incredibly immature.

Prav Solanki: Got to a point [00:29:35] where I became slightly more successful than when I started. So then it became [00:29:40] about the things. So my relationship with money revolved around where do I live? [00:29:45] What do I drive, what do I wear on my wrist? How do I show the world that I [00:29:50] have been successful? How do I push this out into the ecosystem so that [00:29:55] when people see what clothes he wears, what what he wears, you know, what jewellery he’s got, what car [00:30:00] he drives? That’s a measure and impact of success, right? And part [00:30:05] and parcel of that is, you know, you want to have nice things. And this is no disrespect to anyone [00:30:10] who has, you know, got these nice things and gets different feelings and things out of them. [00:30:15] And for me at the time, you know, these things made me feel good. It was it was a way of rewarding myself or treating [00:30:20] myself and whatnot. Right. That’s changed massively, I would say over the last ten [00:30:25] years. Right. I think I’ve, I’ve sort of things [00:30:30] have changed. The more wealth I have accumulated, I [00:30:35] think the, the richer I have become in [00:30:40] the way I think about wealth, in that the things no [00:30:45] longer matter to me. Right? I don’t wear a watch anymore. It doesn’t matter to me. [00:30:50] And the clothes I wear are the things don’t matter [00:30:55] to me at all. I give zero cahoots about [00:31:00] what people think about me, or how they measure me based [00:31:05] on financial or business success or materialistic things.

Prav Solanki: And [00:31:10] I care more about my time with my children, my time with my wife, my [00:31:15] relationship and time with my friends. That is the [00:31:20] most important thing to me now, and also my health paramount [00:31:25] above and beyond anything else at this moment in time. That’s how I feel. Um, and [00:31:30] so my relationship with money has actually changed around, actually, what it’s done [00:31:35] is it’s given me a cushion to be able to have the freedom of time, freedom of choice, [00:31:40] freedom of the unexpected, knowing that if something happens [00:31:45] tomorrow, whether it’s a financial event or an unexpected event, and I need [00:31:50] to call upon resources to be able to fish myself out of that situation. I feel confident [00:31:55] that I can, and I think that’s where my relationship with [00:32:00] money has changed. And I think it’s important for all of you out there, just sometimes [00:32:05] just sit back and reflect. Where are you on that journey and how do you and by the way, my [00:32:10] views and the way I feel about it is not the right or wrong way, but it is [00:32:15] the right way for me and my belief system. Um, but I’m going to leave you with [00:32:20] a couple of thoughts, and it’s about this concept of time [00:32:25] that I’ve been thinking about. Right? Is that this freedom of time or buying time or working [00:32:30] really hard and having that luxury of time now, which I am in at the moment, [00:32:35] and sometimes I’m in an environment where my children really [00:32:40] piss me off.

Prav Solanki: They do my head in, they’re screaming, the feral, the absolutely crazy, [00:32:45] right? And there’s two things that get me over that. And one of them is, is [00:32:50] actually sitting back, closing your eyes and saying, I get to do this. [00:32:55] Not I have to I get to make lunch or dinner for my children. [00:33:00] I get to take him to school. I have the privilege of being [00:33:05] able to do this because one day that’ll disappear. I get to hold my daughter’s hands, [00:33:10] right? I get to have my daughter climbing all over me and pulling my [00:33:15] eyebrows, because one day she won’t want to and one day I’ll want her to. And [00:33:20] I heard this somewhere and just. I think if you’ve got [00:33:25] kids, just think about this. When your kids are doing your tits in, when [00:33:30] they’re winding you up. And I want you to close your eyes. [00:33:35] This is not. This is not my wisdom. By the way, I heard this somewhere else. But you close your eyes and [00:33:40] imagine you’re 80 years old. And you could have one [00:33:45] day or one moment back in your life. And it was that moment [00:33:50] in time where you are right now, where your kids are absolutely doing your head in. You [00:33:55] would give anything to relive that moment and so [00:34:00] embrace it.

[VOICE]: This is Dental [00:34:05] Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [00:34:10] in dentistry. Your hosts [00:34:15] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, [00:34:20] guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you [00:34:25] both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our [00:34:30] guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out [00:34:35] of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who [00:34:40] you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget [00:34:45] our six star rating.

Laura Horton: Hello! [00:00:10] And for today’s episode of The Horton Hangout, [00:00:15] our guest edition. We are really lucky to have Payman here with us. I’ll [00:00:20] get into the intro in a moment and we’ll kick off the podcast. But what’s really lovely is that [00:00:25] this pod is going out at the same time to both our podcast [00:00:30] channels and also the Dental Leaders podcast channels. So wherever you are [00:00:35] listening to us from, thank you ever so much. Let’s get on with this guest episode. Hello [00:00:40] and welcome to this guest episode. We have the amazing Payman hanging [00:00:45] out with us today. Now, you are probably most familiar with Payman for a few [00:00:50] reasons. So firstly, he’s the Clinical Director of Enlightened in Whitening, a brand that we all know and love. [00:00:55] You are also a director for the Mini Smile Makeover [00:01:00] course with Dipesh that you’ve been running for, God knows, eight years. Eight years? That is a long time.

Payman Langroudi: Ten [00:01:05] years. Maybe ten years. Wow.

Laura Horton: Very long time. Which is a really cool course. And then of course, [00:01:10] we’ve got the Dental Leaders podcast and today the tables are turning. Yay! But [00:01:15] we’re not interviewing because, you know, this is about hanging out, having a bit of fun together, [00:01:20] having a chat. I just want to start by saying, thank you so much for hanging out with us.

Payman Langroudi: My pleasure. I’m a [00:01:25] bit pressured. It’s much easier being the host and the guest, I find. But you’re right, this isn’t an interview. Not [00:01:30] just hanging. Hanging, just hanging.

Laura Horton: So have you been interviewed much [00:01:35] on a podcast?

Payman Langroudi: Here and there.

Laura Horton: Here and.

Payman Langroudi: There. Here and there.

Laura Horton: How have you found it?

Payman Langroudi: Like I say, difficult. [00:01:40] Difficult. So much easier being the host. Because you can say whatever you want. You can [00:01:45] steer it whichever direction. Exactly. Yeah. But you guys tell me what you think. [00:01:50] That there are some people who talk a lot. Dentists. There are a lot of dentists who talk a lot, [00:01:55] and they’re great.

Laura Horton: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Because you just let them go. And then, you know, whenever you think, move [00:02:00] it on, you just move it on. But then there are some people who are very concise, a bit too concise. And [00:02:05] so you’re sitting back waiting and the guy will finish the response. And then you’re like, oh God, I’ve got to ask another question. [00:02:10] Yeah. And I find that very difficult. Yes, I find those people much harder to talk to.

Leanna Best: I would as well, because also, [00:02:15] where are you going with it?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Leanna Best: Because you can change the direction based on what they’re [00:02:20] saying as well. And then it can become really interesting if they’re an open book. [00:02:25] But if they’re very clear and concise and it’s like okay, right next then. And it’s very [00:02:30] wooden.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Because if I say where are you from? And you say Bristol, and then I [00:02:35] say, what part of Bristol. It kind of feels organic. Mhm. Yeah. But if you’re very quick [00:02:40] to answer I’ve got to come up with a different question to where are you from. So it just doesn’t, doesn’t, [00:02:45] doesn’t run as well.

Laura Horton: Yeah. So if Lianna responded well this is my full address, my postcode, I’ve lived there for this many [00:02:50] years and you’re like, whoa.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. These are my hobbies.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:02:55] long have you known each other?

Leanna Best: God, is it ten years?

Laura Horton: It’s over ten years. Definitely. [00:03:00] Yeah. So I trained Liana as a TCO when she was working for Neil Gerrard.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. [00:03:05] You did? Yeah. What a great practice.

Leanna Best: Yeah. Amazing practice.

Payman Langroudi: What a brilliant dentist.

Leanna Best: Yeah. [00:03:10] Amazing dentist.

Laura Horton: Neil and Fiona.

Payman Langroudi: Love her too.

Laura Horton: Yeah. Amazing.

Leanna Best: She’s so [00:03:15] fun.

Payman Langroudi: And did you meet the little one?

Leanna Best: Oh, I like yeah. She’s wonderful.

Payman Langroudi: Was she there while you were? Was [00:03:20] she alive while you were there?

Leanna Best: Yeah, yeah. So Fiona was pregnant when I joined. Then she had her, um. [00:03:25] And so when I left, she was grown up. Really? Isla.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Leanna Best: So [00:03:30] cute.

Payman Langroudi: Not that long ago.

Laura Horton: You know, she has just started senior school. Oh.

Payman Langroudi: You are kidding.

Laura Horton: No, [00:03:35] I saw the post. Yeah, yeah. Fiona posted first day of year seven. I was like, oh my [00:03:40] gosh. Doesn’t time fly? It does. Absolutely amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Have you got kids as well? [00:03:45]

Leanna Best: Yeah, I’ve got two.

Payman Langroudi: How old are.

Leanna Best: They? I’ve got a three year old little boy and a seven year old little [00:03:50] girl. Yeah. So the girl was like a lie. You [00:03:55] know, I thought I was a great mom. She was amazing. Did everything perfectly well. Duck to water. [00:04:00] And then I had my son. And he taught me how to parent.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, same with me. Same [00:04:05] story, same story.

Leanna Best: A girl first?

Payman Langroudi: No boy first. But you think you’re so good. [00:04:10] Yeah. You see? You see something? You see someone telling off a kid in a supermarket. You think? Wow, they [00:04:15] don’t know how to handle children.

Laura Horton: That’ll never.

Payman Langroudi: Be me. And then the second one comes along and completely.

Leanna Best: Embarrasses. [00:04:20]

Payman Langroudi: Me.

Leanna Best: All the time.

Payman Langroudi: But how do you. Have you got a nanny?

Leanna Best: No.

Payman Langroudi: So how do you manage with the travelling [00:04:25] around the country?

Leanna Best: Oh, yeah. I’ve got, um, granny, his mum. She comes.

Payman Langroudi: To my.

Leanna Best: House. [00:04:30] Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. So they go to. He goes to pre-school. Drew obviously goes to school. And my [00:04:35] mother in law will come to mind. Collect them, do dinner. So it was all very nice home environment.

Payman Langroudi: And are you away [00:04:40] for days at a time?

Leanna Best: Only normally one night a week if I’m away. I don’t tend to stretch it that [00:04:45] much. Now and then I may do if it works for us. Um. But not often. That [00:04:50] wouldn’t be my preference. Not with the two children.

Laura Horton: Yeah, we tend to have two really long [00:04:55] days. So either either for me, I might be like leaving late in the evening. [00:05:00] So I’ve said good night. That’s done. Problem with that is loads of roads are shut. It’s really [00:05:05] annoying how many roads are shut at night, or you’ll leave really early the next morning and [00:05:10] then you’ll have an overnight and then it’s another really long day.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve stopped driving trains. [00:05:15] Just trains all the way. Wow, it’s so much easier.

Leanna Best: I bet it’s less stressful.

Payman Langroudi: Much less. Yeah, [00:05:20] much. Much less. Yeah. It’s amazing. And by the way, much quicker. Like here to Liverpool. Two hours [00:05:25] and 20. Yeah. By car it’s like four hours sometimes. You know.

Laura Horton: The thing is though, I’ve [00:05:30] got, you know, a good half an hour, 40 minute drive just to get to the nearest train station because I live in the middle of nowhere, so [00:05:35] I might as well carry on.

Leanna Best: Oh, yeah. So you’re in a different situation.

Laura Horton: Different situation? You’re in a city. It’s totally. [00:05:40]

Leanna Best: Different.

Laura Horton: Yeah, like my sister lives in London. She never drives anywhere.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I was one stop from Kings Cross [00:05:45] before. Now I’ve moved. But once Kings Cross was amazing. Yeah. Door to door to Liverpool [00:05:50] like nothing.

Laura Horton: Yeah. Absolutely amazing. But this child situation, [00:05:55] you know, I.

Leanna Best: Haven’t.

Laura Horton: Cried myself on myself, on how smart [00:06:00] I am to have stuck with the one perfect child because I [00:06:05] thought I weighed it up and I thought, I can’t risk it, I can’t risk this [00:06:10] boy is so perfect. He’s slept through the night from six weeks old. He’s he [00:06:15] eats everything. He’s so well behaved. He’s just my perfect little boy. I mean, [00:06:20] we’ll come back in a few years when he’s a teenager and revisit this, but to this point, he’s just turned nine. He’s [00:06:25] just my everything and he’s perfect. And I’d seen my sister [00:06:30] struggling with a child that didn’t sleep. Turned out she’d got dairy intolerance and my sister didn’t [00:06:35] sleep for so long. And I thought, oh, that can’t be me.

Payman Langroudi: Can I ask you to as women? [00:06:40] Right. And you’re clearly both of you like women, particularly ambitious women. [00:06:45] Yeah. Around that question of having it all.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do you accept? You can’t, or are you [00:06:50] actually going for it?

Laura Horton: You can’t have.

Leanna Best: It. No you can’t.

Payman Langroudi: Oh that’s good. That’s good to [00:06:55] hear.

Leanna Best: No you.

Payman Langroudi: Can’t. All the ones who don’t have children yet say they’re not [00:07:00] there today.

Leanna Best: Yeah, you’re.

Laura Horton: Not going to have it all. You’re going to be really stressed out. [00:07:05]

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Laura Horton: You’re going to feel overwhelmed. You’re going to feel like you’re juggling it all. The struggle [00:07:10] is real.

Leanna Best: And that’s not a nice place to be. No.

Payman Langroudi: What’s given, what’s given compared to what you thought would give. [00:07:15]

Laura Horton: Like social life for me.

Leanna Best: Oh, that’s not my. No, I’m very busy. [00:07:20] Still socially. What’s given for me?

Payman Langroudi: You said. You said you can’t have it all. So what’s the thing that’s [00:07:25] missing? What’s. What’s the thing that’s suffered?

Leanna Best: Probably how much I can be there [00:07:30] for the children to a degree. So I do make sure they are my priority. Don’t get me wrong. But because [00:07:35] I do travel.

Payman Langroudi: Do you, like, spend longer with them?

Leanna Best: I would, I’d get less time some days with them. It [00:07:40] doesn’t seem to bother my daughter because she can accept it. And she’s daddy’s girl anyway, [00:07:45] so she’s not missing out. But I’ve noticed it since having a boy. Because it’s mummy is [00:07:50] the best thing ever. So he’s like, where are you going? No. Like, you know, he’s a bit more reactive to it. [00:07:55] So yeah, I would say that that bothers me because then I’ll spend time in the car and be a bit like, [00:08:00] oh, he’s a bit upset. I rang you today, didn’t I? And I was like, oh no, Desi’s not very well. [00:08:05] And he didn’t want me to go. And she was like, oh no. But luckily I’ve got the mother in law who is [00:08:10] super close with, so she’s just going to go and intercept him.

Laura Horton: I remember I would not stay overnight anywhere. [00:08:15] For the first year Harry was born, I’d only had sort of like eight weeks off. Um, and I’m.

Leanna Best: Just crazy, [00:08:20] by the way.

Laura Horton: Yeah. And I just, I just couldn’t I just couldn’t leave it. And I remember the first [00:08:25] day I wasn’t back for bedtime because I had a tire blow. I was hysterical [00:08:30] when I got home and my husband was like, well, just get you a new car. Don’t think this low profile [00:08:35] tires on this Mercedes are where we live. The right car for you. Let’s go and get something [00:08:40] a bit more sturdy. And I was like, okay, Is he [00:08:45] okay? He’s like, he’s fine. Go up and sit next to him in his cot. And I was like, okay, he’s actually fine.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:08:50] haven’t got a co-founder?

Laura Horton: No.

Payman Langroudi: So do you get lonely at the top?

Laura Horton: Um. [00:08:55]

Leanna Best: You’re really good at questions.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got I’ve got co-founders. [00:09:00]

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s horrible splitting the profits four ways. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you [00:09:05] have to get four times as thick. But when things are hard.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Just someone to [00:09:10] someone to go to.

Laura Horton: Yeah. So I think I’ve been really lucky over the years because Michael Bentley was with me for a really [00:09:15] long time. Who? I just met him at a practice managers conference. I was like, this guy’s amazing [00:09:20] and happened to be in a practice around the corner from him the next week like it was meant to be, [00:09:25] and we worked together right up until the pandemic, and that’s a whole nother story. More from his [00:09:30] side. Um, and then you’d already started doing a bit of lecturing [00:09:35] because Fiona had put you forward for this implant day, and then that just became [00:09:40] a natural thing. Yeah. Um, and I think what’s really nice about Michael [00:09:45] and yourself is that they’re relationships that have started as [00:09:50] business relationships, but have then grown into lovely friendships. And I think that’s really [00:09:55] nice and also much easier. So we can have a really, you know, non-emotional [00:10:00] factual conversation about whatever. But then we’re also really good friends now [00:10:05] as well, which is nice, I think when it’s the other way around, when you’ve got a friendship and [00:10:10] you go into business, I think that must be really quite difficult sometimes.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what I did. [00:10:15] That’s what I did, yeah, my best, my two best friends and my wife. Um, we’ve [00:10:20] never really had a major disagreement, but then we’ve never really made major amounts of money. No, it’s when you make [00:10:25] a lot of money that these arguments start. Yeah, yeah, that’s what I think. That’s what I’ve seen. Yeah. [00:10:30] You know, it’s we’ve never really had a proper disagreement. I mean, of course we disagree on stuff. Yeah, [00:10:35] but not in a way that makes you feel like you regret the partnership.

Leanna Best: Yeah. [00:10:40]

Payman Langroudi: At all. Ever.

Laura Horton: So whose idea was enlightened then?

Payman Langroudi: The three [00:10:45] of us. The three of us.

Laura Horton: Were over dinner.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, on a on a ski lift.

Laura Horton: Wow.

Leanna Best: Really?

Laura Horton: That [00:10:50] is so cool. Yeah, right. Okay, so who prompted the who started the conversation? Was it you? [00:10:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What happened was I was getting into partnership with my boss. Yeah. He was. He was [00:11:00] on Harley Street making, like, very high end dentures that give you facelifts [00:11:05] and things. And I was going to go into partnership with him. I was like, Harley Street all this. I was excited. There [00:11:10] was something in back of my head saying, I don’t want to be making dentures, man. And then [00:11:15] I did my first bleaching case in Viti opti Dental.

Laura Horton: Yeah. [00:11:20]

Payman Langroudi: And it blew me away that I. The fact that the teeth changed colour. Yeah, absolutely blew [00:11:25] me away.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And we were skiing and I said to them, look, we should, we’ve got to do something with [00:11:30] bleaching. Mhm. Um, and we were going to open a teeth whitening centre and call that enlightened. [00:11:35] Yeah. And we were going to open for teeth whitening centres. Called them all enlighten. [00:11:40]

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and then in the sort of research phase of that, [00:11:45] like, what are we going to do? What’s going to be the story of this thing? We had to find the right products [00:11:50] for it. And it switched into, you know, the company [00:11:55] saying we don’t have European distributors. And and then we said, oh, we’ll be your European distributor. [00:12:00] It completely changed to a supply thing, right.

Laura Horton: So you didn’t have did you have to put a lot of investment [00:12:05] in or not really.

Payman Langroudi: I think we put like 30 grand each or something. [00:12:10] But but then it was big. Beg borrow and steal for three, four years.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:12:15] It was I mean, it was very difficult. Very difficult. First three, four years.

Laura Horton: Yeah, definitely.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but that was it. And [00:12:20] we never had a proper investor, which I kind of regret now.

Laura Horton: Do you?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, it’s nice not [00:12:25] having to answer to anyone. There is that.

Laura Horton: Is it for growth?

Payman Langroudi: But we live in London. Yeah. London. [00:12:30] The financial capital of the world. Many of my friends are in the city. You know, they raise money. Yeah. I [00:12:35] never thought to even raise money properly. They never did anything about it.

Laura Horton: No. [00:12:40]

Payman Langroudi: And now I think about it. And I see some people, you know, they just started a company and [00:12:45] we just started with our seed fund. £2 million. Yeah. It took me [00:12:50] like eight, ten years to, to bring in £2 million in total. Yeah. Just that year. Yeah. [00:12:55] Something like that. Yeah. And so now I sort of think that was a mistake. So [00:13:00] I’m telling my son now if he’s ever going to do entrepreneurship to do it right.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Laura Horton: Get the get [00:13:05] the investment at the start.

Leanna Best: Yeah. And how was your son 18.

Payman Langroudi: So he’s just about to go to bath [00:13:10] actually.

Leanna Best: Oh really. Oh it’s lovely.

Laura Horton: What’s he studying?

Payman Langroudi: Aerospace engineering.

Leanna Best: Oh, [00:13:15] my cousin’s in. That works for Rolls-Royce. Great company. Wow.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. He’s not even sure if he wants to be that [00:13:20] engineer, but, like, he’s like, it’s a good degree to get in. Yeah, yeah.

Laura Horton: Wow. [00:13:25]

Payman Langroudi: But you know, what I found is a lot of it’s defence.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I wasn’t aware of that. I thought it was like rockets [00:13:30] and Formula one cars. 95% of it is defence.

Leanna Best: Yeah. And I didn’t realise that [00:13:35] until I actually asked my cousin about his role. Yeah. And then he would explain and I was like, oh right. Okay. That seems a [00:13:40] bit different to what I expected.

Laura Horton: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s a bit unexpected. So you went on his first work experience. [00:13:45] So what do you what do you what did you do? It was like, yeah, it’s a missile guidance [00:13:50] system. Okay. Okay.

Laura Horton: Amazing. He’ll end up with one of those [00:13:55] jobs that I can’t talk about. My job.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Laura Horton: Can’t tell you what I do. Can’t tell you anything.

Payman Langroudi: Then he went British [00:14:00] Aerospace, and there was a helmet that looks through the plane because they’ve got cameras [00:14:05] on the bottom of the plane, and they know, like, you know. But it’s all defence. I spent all these years saying war is wrong. [00:14:10] Yeah. Anyway.

Laura Horton: That’s reality. And he’s in it. He’s in it. So [00:14:15] you’re saying how long you’ve had enlighten.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. 24 years [00:14:20] now.

Laura Horton: 24 years. So when did I meet you? When did you [00:14:25] come to the practice?

Payman Langroudi: When ashes. Practice. Practice. And I remember [00:14:30] walking in and thinking, first of all, looking around the decor and thinking, did they put [00:14:35] that in this town, which was Hartford? Hartford?

Laura Horton: Yeah, small little town.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:14:40] I’d already been. I’d been to places like Dental. And, you know, I’d seen beautiful practices [00:14:45] in central London, but I did not expect it in Hartford. And then [00:14:50] just the, the way I probably it was you talking to me, [00:14:55] the way I was welcomed and and shown around and all of that. I [00:15:00] remember thinking, wow, unbelievable. It was really it was it was completely [00:15:05] out of the ordinary. Mhm. Um, even for those central London practices, it was it was absolutely [00:15:10] special. I guess that was your influence.

Laura Horton: Yeah it was. Teamwork makes [00:15:15] the dream work you know.

Payman Langroudi: But I do remember that because it was such a long time ago.

Laura Horton: It was a long [00:15:20] time ago.

Payman Langroudi: Now you see a bit more of that.

Leanna Best: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s kind of how I felt when I went [00:15:25] for an interview with Neil. I was like, similar vibe. Very much so. But then [00:15:30] almost put me off. So I was like, oh wow, this is really intense. It’s very like posh high end. [00:15:35] I got quite scared quite quickly. Um, but obviously interviewed well, got the job [00:15:40] and then soon realised why everything was the way it was because it was just constant investment and training [00:15:45] America.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, Neil and Fiona, they reinvest continuously [00:15:50] in that practice continuously, whether it’s building work, whether it’s extra training, [00:15:55] whether it’s the latest machine, you know, and, you know, [00:16:00] in business it’s hard investing, isn’t it. That’s your bottom line. But they [00:16:05] just keep on doing it, you know. Um it’s brilliant. It’s brilliant to see I love, love, love that practice. [00:16:10]

Leanna Best: Have you ever been there.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah a couple of times. Probably. Probably. They’re together. Yeah. [00:16:15]

Leanna Best: I bet we were at some point.

Laura Horton: Your paths have crossed. Yeah. What are you looking [00:16:20] at in enlightened now then what are you investing in now? We’ve talked about investing. Anything coming up?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:16:25] Um, so we moved the lab in-house.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:16:30] about five just before Covid. So up to that point, we were always outsourcing [00:16:35] the lab part. And so we’re continually now the labs right [00:16:40] there, you know, so we can keep on going and trying things. And so we buy a lot of equipment. My, my [00:16:45] my respect for labs has gone through the roof. Yeah. I mean, it’s a tough business. [00:16:50]

Laura Horton: It’s hard.

Payman Langroudi: Tough tough. But we make one product a bleaching tray. Yeah. Which which labs just [00:16:55] laugh at. They think it’s nothing. Yeah. Which it is from from a lab perspective. It’s nothing. But [00:17:00] it’s hard. Running a lab is hard working to deadlines. You’re completely reliant on the [00:17:05] flow. Um, a bit like a restaurant, you know, like everyone has to know everyone’s job. Yeah. [00:17:10] Otherwise, you know, you’re going to lose consistency. But anyway, we’re very busy on on that, [00:17:15] trying to improve the tray all the time. And with digital, it’s made it a little bit more complicated. Right. [00:17:20] And so we’ve got printers and resins and you know all of that side. But [00:17:25] really Laura and you guys will see this as sort of from the practice [00:17:30] perspective, it would be your version of it would be internal marketing versus [00:17:35] external marketing. And I’ve really become aware of [00:17:40] the fact that if I want to double the size of enlighten, it’s much easier. Doubling [00:17:45] the number of treatments than doubling the number of dentists.

Laura Horton: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And [00:17:50] you know, you’re you’re sort of DNA tends to make [00:17:55] you want to find a new customer all the time. Um, but when we look at the numbers, [00:18:00] they’re easily double able per dentist. And you guys know this, dentists [00:18:05] don’t do enough whitening, they don’t ask enough questions about wants and so forth. So that’s [00:18:10] been sort of my obsession this last sort of year of, you know, [00:18:15] and we’re measuring it now finally. So before we used to go into the practice, [00:18:20] do some training and leave.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Right now now we’re measuring. What [00:18:25] does that do to the to the growth of the practice, not just going in its resources and so [00:18:30] forth. So I’ve been a bit bit focussed on that. And then on the communication side, which [00:18:35] I’m responsible for, it’s a bit difficult, right. Because I feel like I’ve really failed on it [00:18:40] because a lot of people think enlighten is, you know, [00:18:45] gel in a fancy box and it’s not. There’s a lot more to [00:18:50] it than, than the packaging.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and but I’d say 60% [00:18:55] of dentists actually think that. Um, and the fact that we, I [00:19:00] haven’t been able to get that message through properly makes me feel like a bit of a failure, you know? [00:19:05]

Laura Horton: So what’s the message, then? What’s the message?

Payman Langroudi: Much better. Much, much better product. It’s much better product. It makes teeth whiter. Yeah, [00:19:10] but but what I’m saying is if you go and ask a random dentist.

Laura Horton: Yeah, they’ll just be like.

Payman Langroudi: They’ll think [00:19:15] it’s a fancy packaging. Branding. Like, I don’t know, an Apple computer, some fancy box. It’s a totally [00:19:20] different computer. Yeah, yeah. I’m not saying it’s an Apple computer, but, you know, we really [00:19:25] try hard on making each aspect and then the results are much better, right? But [00:19:30] I haven’t managed to get that story into the market properly.

Laura Horton: Well, you’ve got Apple and you’ve got Acer. And there’s a distinct [00:19:35] difference, isn’t there? I know one’s a mac and one’s a PC, but still at the end of the day, it’s a computer, isn’t [00:19:40] it? And one thing I’ve always said to practices is when a team members [00:19:45] whiten their teeth, I can always tell when it’s enlightened. I can tell just by. I’m like, you’ve used [00:19:50] enlightened and they’re like, yep. And I’m like, you’re happy. Really happy. I can tell instantly because [00:19:55] of the colour, because there’s just something about it. But I totally agree with [00:20:00] you that practices are not doing as much whitening as they should be. [00:20:05] Nowhere near. Nowhere near. And everyone wants their teeth whiter, everyone wants their teeth [00:20:10] whiter. And I think my mum’s a classic example. She’s 72 now. Um, [00:20:15] but a few years ago she went to the dentist and she called me up and she said, I’m having my teeth [00:20:20] whitened. And I was like, yes, ma’am. I’ve been on at you for decades [00:20:25] to whiten your teeth. And, you know, she said, well, I’ve always wanted [00:20:30] to do it. And I said, well, what prompted this then? And she said it was the conversation. The dentist [00:20:35] prompted the conversation, not me. She didn’t want to say.

Leanna Best: Well.

Payman Langroudi: We don’t, [00:20:40] you know. Yeah. You know, I’d say 90% of people. Yeah, are not going to [00:20:45] sort of veer away from the patient journey. No, the patient journey is there [00:20:50] and different. We all know there’s different patient journeys. Yeah. So people patients will [00:20:55] generally just do do as they’re told. They’ll follow the patient journey. If the patient journey happens [00:21:00] to go to the point of the colour of teeth, which is very interesting. Right. [00:21:05] It’s not we’re not taught in university to record the colour of teeth in an [00:21:10] examination. Yeah. Like we’re taught a whole lot of stuff about the TMJ clicks and [00:21:15] obviously all cancer perio, but the colour of teeth, we’re not even taught to record. [00:21:20] Yeah, and it’s a massive, magnificent mistake, right. Insomuch [00:21:25] as the patients are more interested in the colour of the teeth than they are.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Everything else. Yeah, [00:21:30] but we’re not recording that. Yeah.

Laura Horton: So when I’m working with dentists on their examination and diagnosis, [00:21:35] taking a shade is part of it and it’s, you know, verbal from the nurse. Mhm. [00:21:40] Um let’s take the tooth shade and then the dentist explains this is what they’re doing. This [00:21:45] is the range of shades. And please let that shade guide be in the right order because it freaks me out a little bit. [00:21:50] Yeah I can’t bear it. A1 b1 c1 it’s got to be in the right order, but by [00:21:55] value.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Laura Horton: Yeah. I’m like ah, um, but and [00:22:00] then the patients, they, they get engaged in that. Would you like to see what colour your teeth are. If they say no, they’re not. [00:22:05] Say no. Oh yes please I’d like. Here’s a mirror. Have a look. Are you happy with the colour of your [00:22:10] teeth? I think it’s part of the.

Payman Langroudi: Oral hygiene instruction. Part of the examination? Yeah, [00:22:15] because patients see it as part of oral hygiene.

Laura Horton: And feeling fresh, looking [00:22:20] clean. People want to look clean, and I think things that patients say are that [00:22:25] they don’t want to look too white. That’s that’s a worry.

Leanna Best: It’s a fear.

Laura Horton: That’s a.

Leanna Best: Fear. The biggest fears. Oh, [00:22:30] I don’t mind having whitening, but I don’t want to have it too white. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do you teach you? Must you guys in the SEO [00:22:35] world, you must teach about. Objection handling. Oh, yeah. And [00:22:40] one thing I always tell people, dentists is if you come up with any idea, especially [00:22:45] a want, a need is different. You’re kind of being the doctor. You’re saying you really [00:22:50] should do this? Yeah. If it’s a want and you’ve just said it to the patient, you must [00:22:55] expect the patient to come up with one mini objection to buy themselves some time to [00:23:00] think about what’s going on. What just happened? Yeah. And so.

Leanna Best: It’s [00:23:05] so. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: It’s kind of stressful. I was with my dad with with a urologist yesterday, [00:23:10] and I could see him sort of stressing. He’s an older guy. I could see him stressing to [00:23:15] answer the. The guy was saying, how many times a day do you go to the loo? He was like, so if you mean, you know, whatever [00:23:20] it was. Yeah. And so, you know, you come up with something new to the patient. You will get now with whitening [00:23:25] the if the patients over 55, [00:23:30] 60 if patients over 60, the first mini objection will always be not my age. [00:23:35] I’m too old for this.

Leanna Best: I had that yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very common.

Laura Horton: I don’t want and that’s where they worry about them [00:23:40] being too white as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. But now when the patients saying that they’re not saying no [00:23:45] they’re not. No, they’re just buying a little bit of time. They’re kind of saying I’m [00:23:50] not vain. It’s not like British older person. Yeah. Can’t can’t admit [00:23:55] to vanity. Yeah. Let’s talk about a man. You know, like like you said your mum was about 74 [00:24:00] year old man. Cannot say I want a whiter smile. Yeah. Now the obvious [00:24:05] conclusion to that is you go in with something like age is just a number. But [00:24:10] what I found much easier in that situation to point out one of the health benefits [00:24:15] of whitening and there are health benefits. We just talk about them very much because everyone wants. But it’s really [00:24:20] good for your gums, right? In that situation, you say it’s good for your gums and now now they’ve got something to [00:24:25] hang on. That isn’t vanity, it’s health. Oh, good for my gums. Let’s go for it. Now [00:24:30] with another patient it might be a different mini objection. Yeah. And [00:24:35] you guys must be training about. I can’t afford it.

Leanna Best: Which is.

Payman Langroudi: Which is, you know, I can’t afford [00:24:40] it. Yeah. That’s never the objection. It’s never about money. When it’s about money, they [00:24:45] don’t actually admit to it. They use a different objection because people don’t like to admit [00:24:50] they can’t afford it.

Leanna Best: No, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: I can’t afford it. Means all sorts of stuff. Yeah, I can’t afford it based [00:24:55] on what just happened.

Leanna Best: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I can’t afford. I don’t like you. Yeah. That’s [00:25:00] it. Could be my mum. My mum’s in hospital. I can’t think about it. Yeah, I can’t afford it. Just means just. [00:25:05]

Leanna Best: Get me away.

Payman Langroudi: Just some time. Give me some.

Leanna Best: Time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so that. It’s funny that [00:25:10] we have to talk about it, but we do have to talk about it.

Laura Horton: We do?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. These, these. And that’s why you guys [00:25:15] play such an important role. Because dentists can’t do the work they’re trained to do unless they figure out [00:25:20] this sort of stuff.

Leanna Best: Yeah. Yeah.

Laura Horton: And this is where the TCO role does come [00:25:25] in. And a lot of people again, just think the TCO roles just for, you know, the high value patients. But I’m [00:25:30] really passionate about it for general dentistry. And it really excels the experience in the patient. [00:25:35] So new general patient comes in. They see the TCO first 15 minutes 20 minutes. [00:25:40] It depends if they’re going to scan, if they’ve got the room to scan, things like that. But that initial conversation [00:25:45] really relaxes the patient. And you get to find out all this information on behalf [00:25:50] of, you know, the dentist, and then you’re finding out, you know, oh, any [00:25:55] cosmetic concerns. And nine out of ten patients doesn’t matter. Their age will [00:26:00] say, I’d like whiter teeth. Right. We’re now doing whitening today and I’m about to do the scan anyway. Happy [00:26:05] days. Um, that’s now X amount of money. We can we can charge that patient today if they’re happy to [00:26:10] go ahead with it. It. And it’s quick. And the patients are like, oh right, okay, well I can just come back in a couple of weeks. Yeah. Fantastic. We’ve got [00:26:15] the scan. We’ll use that if that’s okay. And it works really well like that as well as then [00:26:20] handing them over properly in the exam, getting a handover back and then taking them back in the [00:26:25] console.

Payman Langroudi: How do you guys handle patients who don’t go ahead with [00:26:30] the plan.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Insomuch as I’m not talking about follow up techniques, all of that, I find a [00:26:35] lot of times dentists won’t even offer something because of the embarrassment [00:26:40] of the patient saying no to that thing.

Leanna Best: I’ve not had that before. No, no, [00:26:45] I haven’t had that.

Payman Langroudi: So the whitening conversation. Yeah, it’s a one. Would you like a whiter smile? Yeah. [00:26:50] There are different reasons why they don’t go ahead. They’ll say something like, I don’t want to embarrass the patient. I don’t want to annoy [00:26:55] the patient. I don’t want to. I don’t want to come across as a pushy salesman. Yeah.

Leanna Best: I guess.

Payman Langroudi: When a patient doesn’t [00:27:00] go ahead, there’s this moment for the dentist.

Leanna Best: Because.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a defensive.

Leanna Best: Yeah, [00:27:05] yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, I’m. One minute I’m your doctor. I’m supposed to be caring for you. Next minute I’m selling [00:27:10] something. Now you haven’t wanted it. I think that’s one of the primary reasons why [00:27:15] they don’t ask. Because it’s very obvious that if they ask, they’ll get it. Um, so [00:27:20] one thing we’ve been teaching is this notion of we’re asking everyone. Um, because, [00:27:25] yeah, the because is key. Yeah, but asking everyone. I’m not singling you out. I’m not saying [00:27:30] you’re ugly. I’m not saying anything. I’m asking.

Laura Horton: I’m saying your teeth look dirty.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Asking everyone. And then. Because [00:27:35] can be anything. Yeah. It really doesn’t matter what the. Because is. Because it’s summer. Winter. You know, we’ve got we’ve got a new [00:27:40] system. It doesn’t matter what you say after because. Yeah, but but that helps a lot of dentists get [00:27:45] over the idea of I don’t want you to feel like I’m saying you’re.

Leanna Best: Yeah. It’s uncomfortable. [00:27:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Leanna Best: It’s uncomfortable communication for a lot of people to have. When I first ever became [00:27:55] a dental nurse, I worked in a practice which was predominantly NHS, and we did a really small amount of [00:28:00] private, and there was one dentist and there were six surgeries. Only one [00:28:05] dentist. Ever used to ask any cosmetic concerns. Are you happy with the colour of your teeth? If there was diastema, [00:28:10] are you happy with that gap in the front of your mouth? And I used to think, wow, that’s really [00:28:15] nice that he asked those questions. I never saw it as a negative, but obviously everybody [00:28:20] else didn’t choose to operate the same as him. He was the principal. I [00:28:25] speak about him a lot. Ian. Mhm. Um, but the other principal, David, would never ask those questions and [00:28:30] it’s exactly that they’re worried to offend.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Laura Horton: Yeah yeah. But I think even if you go back to [00:28:35] say general dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: You guys treat the dentist as well. Sorry.

Laura Horton: Yeah I do a lot of work with dentists training [00:28:40] them for.

Payman Langroudi: These.

Leanna Best: Communication mainly. Yeah.

Laura Horton: Presenting treatment plans to patients handling [00:28:45] objections.

Payman Langroudi: So sorry to.

Laura Horton: Interrupt. No, no. It’s fine. I think sometimes what we experience [00:28:50] for sure is that patients get a big treatment plan essentially dumped on them. And the [00:28:55] missing communication is what is urgent, what’s what’s important, what [00:29:00] needs to be addressed now. Because it is shocking that patients walk around with a mouth full of decay, [00:29:05] knowing they’ve got a mouth full of decay. So I would always question, but so what hasn’t allowed [00:29:10] them to move forward? Then why are they still walking around with a mouth full of decay if they know they’ve got that? So we want to [00:29:15] make sure it’s co-diagnosis, which I love, that they understand and [00:29:20] own their own problems, and then they’re advised and recommended. I think this is the one [00:29:25] thing, again, a lot of dentists don’t do is recommend and you’re the professional.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, if there’s [00:29:30] three courses of action, recommend one of them.

Laura Horton: Three teeth that need treating. But [00:29:35] I’m going to recommend we deal with this tooth first. And the reason for that is a B and C. And [00:29:40] that’s why we’re going to recommend we start with that one. So if those patients leave even just booking that [00:29:45] that one treatment or the hygiene, do you know what I mean. It really, really helps [00:29:50] keep the patient in the flow. And they might end up having one tooth done at a time every couple of months.

Payman Langroudi: The last time [00:29:55] you guys were patients.

Laura Horton: Oh.

Leanna Best: The patient.

Laura Horton: Tell you it [00:30:00] is actually because I know this because I was looking the other day.

Leanna Best: For [00:30:05] treatment.

Laura Horton: Well, it was three years since I had an examination. Um. [00:30:10]

Leanna Best: But Trump.

Laura Horton: What a tramp. Ash did my veneers [00:30:15] when Harry was born. Yes. Nearly nine years ago. That he would have done them.

Leanna Best: Hmm. What have [00:30:20] I had done.

Laura Horton: As a patient? That was a big course of treatment.

Leanna Best: Mine. Mine was a hygienist of routine [00:30:25] hygiene.

Laura Horton: Yeah. Hygienist goes to the hygienist.

Leanna Best: For six months now, though.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t really count.

Leanna Best: That doesn’t count. Okay, [00:30:30] so any treatment? Oh, my God, I can’t remember, but it was under sedation. Inhalation [00:30:35] sedation. Because Neil started doing it. And I am petrified of injections. And [00:30:40] he said well you’ll have sedation then. And I was like okay so it’s probably a filling. That was ages ago. [00:30:45] Can’t remember.

Payman Langroudi: So I’ve got I’ve got a loose filling. Yeah, yeah. It’s on holiday. Something [00:30:50] stuck in my teeth and oh my God, it’s filling. It’s loose. Yeah. And my [00:30:55] wife is a dentist. Yeah. And I haven’t booked.

Laura Horton: You haven’t done anything.

Payman Langroudi: Haven’t [00:31:00] booked to go in yet.

Laura Horton: Just playing around with it in your mouth.

Payman Langroudi: Well, I’ve only been back four days.

Leanna Best: Five [00:31:05] days?

Payman Langroudi: But, but but it’s made me realise, and it’s.

Leanna Best: Not a priority. [00:31:10]

Payman Langroudi: When I had, I had a feeling as well about two years ago or something. Um. That [00:31:15] one made me realise. Painless injection. My wife gave me. My wife gave me this injection. [00:31:20] I did not feel it at all. And I’m a dentist. Yeah. I didn’t even know she’d given an injection [00:31:25] until it started going numb.

Leanna Best: I need to see her.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, and her patients follow [00:31:30] her around because she’s gentle. Right.

Leanna Best: Yeah. That’s wonderful.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So now I’ve realised that’s more important [00:31:35] than anything. Because I hate needles like you. Yeah. Um, but then what I’m saying is it’s [00:31:40] a pain in the ass, man.

Laura Horton: It’s inconvenient.

Payman Langroudi: It’s tough, it’s inconvenient, it’s cost. [00:31:45] Let’s say I’m not going to pay it, but it’s cost. Now imagine I go. If I was a regular person, [00:31:50] I’d go in for this broken filling. And then the dentist says, do you want whitening? I may say, [00:31:55] no, I might. Yeah. Because I’ve already an extra appointment now. Another [00:32:00] find five, £500 or whatever. Yeah. And so I get it, [00:32:05] I get it. Yeah. You know, so what’s I find very interesting [00:32:10] is the notion that who is the most engaged patient with [00:32:15] the practice. Is it the one who just had 30 grand of implant treatment? They’re [00:32:20] very engaged. Yeah. For me, it’s that cat that [00:32:25] keeps turning up every six months.

Leanna Best: Yeah. It’s a bread and butter patient.

Payman Langroudi: Being told they need nothing. Yeah. [00:32:30] And keeps coming every six months. Yeah. And pay money to be told they need nothing. [00:32:35] I mean, that’s a massively engaged person.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, of course, some people have had it [00:32:40] so ingrained in their head if you don’t turn up every six months. Yeah. But, you know, no way. If I was a normal civilian, [00:32:45] I would turn up six times in a row to be told you need nothing and keep on turning [00:32:50] up to be told I need nothing.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So now those patients imagine [00:32:55] every dentist has got, six of those a day, depending [00:33:00] on the day. Six patients who come in needing nothing, who maybe [00:33:05] the last four times they came in needed nothing as well. And they told the patient, you need [00:33:10] nothing when they could have easily said there’s a filling, you know. So trust is through the roof. Yes. [00:33:15] With that particular dentist.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: They need nothing brushing their teeth very well. [00:33:20] They love the sort of pat on the back for that. Perfect for whitening. Perfect for whitening. [00:33:25] But ever since the Dorfman days, we’ve learned that whitening is. Do you want fries [00:33:30] with that. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah obviously it is. Yeah. Because it goes well with fillings. It goes [00:33:35] well with Invisalign.

Leanna Best: It goes with I love that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But what I’m saying is it’s such a missed opportunity [00:33:40] because every single dentist has got 4 or 5 of those a day. Yeah. Yeah. Patients who need nothing. And [00:33:45] those patients are perfect for the whitening conversation. Yeah. But. But we don’t think [00:33:50] about it. It’s not. It’s not a common thing.

Laura Horton: I feel it’s exactly the same. I relate [00:33:55] it to time. So patients that have got the time to come and they’ve also got good oral [00:34:00] health, which means they’ve got the time to T.P. every day engaged. They’re engaged. [00:34:05] They’ve got time. So who are they? And actually the biggest group of patients with time. They’re [00:34:10] not us guys sitting here. They’re not our age group. They are actually the retired. You [00:34:15] know.

Payman Langroudi: All the patients are the best.

Laura Horton: Older patients and.

Payman Langroudi: Best.

Laura Horton: Practices are full of them. And they’re [00:34:20] missing all these opportunities all the time just to whiten teeth. And these patients [00:34:25] have the time. That’s what you know.

Leanna Best: Will they schedule it out of their day months in [00:34:30] advance? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about morale.

Laura Horton: Go on then because we’ve got a good question for you. [00:34:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So we were saying I’ve been to I haven’t counted but [00:34:40] let’s say a thousand practices. Yeah. You’ve been to let’s say 500 I don’t know how many you’ve been to. Yeah. And [00:34:45] how long do you think it takes before you know what’s, what’s going on in [00:34:50] this practice. Like.

Leanna Best: Oh in terms of like what type of team have we got?

Payman Langroudi: And I [00:34:55] get there, we all have to. We have to get there a bit earlier because we don’t want to be late. Yes. Yeah. I specifically [00:35:00] go in about ten minutes before the time I’m due to go in. Yeah, just to sit and have a look around. [00:35:05]

Laura Horton: Yeah. Have a listen.

Payman Langroudi: Have a listen. Yeah. How am I greeted with that. But then [00:35:10] very like there are different types of morale in different practices.

Leanna Best: Very much so.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And [00:35:15] where does it come from? Does it come. Is it traditionally just from the top? Is it is it as simple as that?

Laura Horton: Yeah, [00:35:20] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is it a situation where I’ve seen, for instance, someone told me they [00:35:25] won’t get us a microwave. Microwave?

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Laura Horton: £50. £20 [00:35:30] in Asda? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Wait, is that a real thing? [00:35:35]

Laura Horton: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So? So almost.

Leanna Best: Completely detached.

Laura Horton: Mm. One [00:35:40] of the things that we do is observe in practices. So [00:35:45] patient experience evaluation. And that is about well firstly [00:35:50] understanding the challenges from the practice manager and owner perspective. So we get that. We’ve got their list, we understand [00:35:55] what their challenges are, but then it’s about going in really without preconceived [00:36:00] ideas and thoughts, but still understanding where they’re coming from and [00:36:05] observing the full patient experience. And it’s basically like being a fly on the wall. [00:36:10]

Leanna Best: It’s my favourite.

Laura Horton: It’s it’s fantastic. So three hours doing that because of the hours. [00:36:15] Yeah three hours.

Payman Langroudi: Ten minutes.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Leanna Best: Well it goes so quickly.

Laura Horton: It goes so quickly. And [00:36:20] three hours doing that. We we know everything inside out anyway. So having a look [00:36:25] in the diaries that is golden.

Leanna Best: Yeah. And their reaction when you say it also. Yeah. Did you want [00:36:30] to.

Payman Langroudi: Did you sit in on the exams and all that.

Laura Horton: Yeah. So sitting in on new patient not necessarily treatment because [00:36:35] you don’t want to spend an hour watching a rubber dam place for a filling. But you know it’s [00:36:40] it’s more about the communication appointment. So a lot of it will be the desk obviously TCO or.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:36:45] team’s defensive about it must be a little.

Laura Horton: Bit.

Leanna Best: They think it’s a personality thing. Yeah I always aim [00:36:50] to explain I’m coming in with no judgement on anybody. We’re looking to improve [00:36:55] your systems and communication. And then when I go in, I make sure I’m super [00:37:00] friendly and engaging. I don’t want them to think I’m just in the background. Who’s that big bad wolf? [00:37:05] And that so far I’ve never had any sort of resistance. But you [00:37:10] do get a different sort of feeling about some people. They’re almost showing [00:37:15] off for you. You can tell they’re not being their authentic self, which I get, I get it, you [00:37:20] know, I’m watching you. You’re not going to necessarily be the most relaxed. Um, but I find [00:37:25] if you’re going to get resistance, it’s after when you go back into.

Payman Langroudi: The.

Leanna Best: Recommendation. [00:37:30] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Leanna Best: That’s when they feel a bit more, I think more.

Laura Horton: The other reason the team are quite relaxed [00:37:35] about the days, well, you know, is because we do ask the practice owners [00:37:40] and managers to tell them that we’re from practice. We started as dental nurses. We’re from practice. So [00:37:45] we.

Payman Langroudi: Do. Yeah.

Laura Horton: Yeah. And I think that does really help them to go. Oh, okay. It’s not just some, you [00:37:50] know, random person in a suit turned up to stand here with a clipboard and assess [00:37:55] me. We do actually know what we’re talking about. And also, during the day, if we can offer a little bit of advice, we [00:38:00] will as well. You know, if it’s going to help someone out, we can see they’re in a tricky situation. Um, we’ll, [00:38:05] you know, say, oh, you know, how did you find that? Oh, and we’d always say, look, these things always happen when we’re here. You [00:38:10] probably won’t happen again in your working life.

Payman Langroudi: You muck in as well. Do you like the trick? I have.

Laura Horton: Yeah, [00:38:15] I have, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Help yourself.

Leanna Best: It’s difficult to not want to do things.

Laura Horton: Yeah. [00:38:20] Yeah. Um, I have in with a client that I’ve worked with for over ten years now. [00:38:25] Yeah. Um, it was a disaster that morning. I think I’ve spoken about it on the podcast, and, yeah, I [00:38:30] ended up just taking over reception. Luckily, I knew the Dental software, but I was like, look, let me just check [00:38:35] people in, check them out, and you just sort everything else out because it had all gone wrong that morning and we all [00:38:40] still laugh about that now. That team, a long standing team. Um, but I think it helps [00:38:45] for the team to also understand that it’s not just the view of the practice manager or owner. [00:38:50] When we get to experience what they’re experiencing and we can say, you haven’t got [00:38:55] enough staff on the desk. Yeah, you know, how do you expect this fantastic experience [00:39:00] and mistakes not to be made when they’re under.

Payman Langroudi: Such pressure on demand? Yeah, [00:39:05] yeah. Do you agree with that?

Laura Horton: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Compared to other businesses, [00:39:10] you feel that there’s not enough humans around.

Laura Horton: And the phone’s neglected, and then [00:39:15] you’re spending a fortune on marketing, and the phone’s neglected, and, you [00:39:20] know, it’s just crazy really, if you think about.

Payman Langroudi: It, if your practice has taken AI receptionists. [00:39:25]

Laura Horton: No, I’ve got one that’s about that’s about to move to it.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s interesting. [00:39:30]

Laura Horton: Yeah, I’m really interested in it. It was my recommendation to explore it because they have got logistical [00:39:35] issues, staff issues, space issues. And I said, I think this might be something [00:39:40] that’s worth exploring. Um, I’m really interested in it. [00:39:45]

Leanna Best: Yeah. For sure. That’d be really good to hear.

Laura Horton: Yeah, I think it will really solve some problems [00:39:50] for some practices for sure.

Payman Langroudi: You know, we’ve got one of those chatbots on our website.

Laura Horton: Yeah. [00:39:55]

Payman Langroudi: And we asked everyone to put out all the questions they ever get asked. [00:40:00]

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: All of enlighten. 27 questions. Wow. Same 27 questions [00:40:05] every time.

Leanna Best: Really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And it’s so interesting because, you know, once you train the bot on those 27 [00:40:10] questions, answers them better than our people, right?

Laura Horton: Yeah. That’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t it interesting?

Laura Horton: Isn’t [00:40:15] it? That is really good, isn’t it? Yeah.

Leanna Best: I’m really intrigued to hear about this. This [00:40:20] venture your client’s about to go on.

Laura Horton: Yeah. Yeah, I’m really enjoying.

Payman Langroudi: The demo I saw was amazing. Yeah, [00:40:25] I guess they put on their best demo.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Laura Horton: Yeah, it was like you say. It’s how it’s trained, isn’t it? Yeah. [00:40:30] So it really does need to be trained with real calls for sure.

Payman Langroudi: I think the other thing is pretty soon [00:40:35] the it’s going to be bot to bot. Yeah.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you’ll ask the [00:40:40] patient will ask their bot box and bot to bot, then you don’t have to worry about it being [00:40:45] human.

Laura Horton: Yeah, I’ll ask my bot to talk to your bot. Yeah, yeah.

Leanna Best: I don’t like that.

Laura Horton: Yeah, [00:40:50] but do you know one of the.

Leanna Best: I like the human touch?

Laura Horton: Oh, one of the biggest problems still will [00:40:55] always be the face to face customer service experience and how it’s delivered. Like, I [00:41:00] had the most shocking experience on Saturday. I went to.

Payman Langroudi: The.

Laura Horton: No, no, I went to test drive [00:41:05] two cars. Didn’t get to test drive either of them.

Leanna Best: Oh, no.

Laura Horton: Right. So the first one was Tesla [00:41:10] self test drive car wasn’t there and got my little [00:41:15] boy with me and we’re driving. He was really excited. Um, [00:41:20] and we’re driving round and round this car park and I’m like, well, the model I’ve booked to drive isn’t here. I can see that. And [00:41:25] then I got out and I was like, I’m so confused. And you’ve got to use this Tesla app, which obviously is new. I’ve [00:41:30] not used it before. And I’m thinking, what’s going on? And I’ve got reading glasses. Now I didn’t I didn’t [00:41:35] have them with me.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, God.

Laura Horton: So I’m like, what’s going on?

Payman Langroudi: Disaster.

Laura Horton: This guy comes up to me, he’s like, oh, excuse me, are you looking [00:41:40] to test drive a Tesla? And I looked at him and I thought, he’s not in work uniform. And I [00:41:45] said, yes. Are you like save myself? And he said, yeah, but my car’s not here. I said, no, no, it’s mine. [00:41:50] So um, I said, well, you know, so he, he said, oh, if you look on the app press [00:41:55] directions. And I said, well, it’s telling me it’s 28 minutes away in Chelmsford. I don’t [00:42:00] understand it. And he said, well, mine looks like it’s on its journey back. I said, oh right, okay. [00:42:05] I said, well mine’s not. And then I pressed another button. It said mine was on charge. I was like, mine’s in the Tesla showroom in Chelmsford. [00:42:10] It’s not here. I’m not going to get to test drive it. Called a number. No answer. I was like, [00:42:15] what a waste of my time. So then I go to mini. So my most favourite car I’ve ever had is my Mini [00:42:20] countryman. I wish I never got rid of it. I’m like, right, I’ll go and check out the Electric Mini Countryman. I [00:42:25] arrived ten minutes early and I see the guy getting in the car and going for a test drive with [00:42:30] someone else. I know it’s him because they send you the video the day before, don’t they? Here’s the car you’re looking [00:42:35] at like a little video overview. Can’t be bothered to watch that, but whatever. Thanks, Callum. And [00:42:40] I thought that’s Callum. That’s him. But also, [00:42:45] when I’ve been test driving cars recent times, you go on your own, you don’t come with you. Which I think is [00:42:50] great. So anyway, so I’m in there. I was in there and not one [00:42:55] person acknowledged me by icon. Even eye contact in the whole mini showroom. [00:43:00] They’re all dealing with people. And I was like, this is unbelievable.

Payman Langroudi: A [00:43:05] big purchase like that.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Laura Horton: Yeah. And he.

Payman Langroudi: You know, if you, if you, if you ask about bad customer [00:43:10] service, that’s just everywhere. Yeah. But this good customers this gets worse. [00:43:15] So that was the end of the story.

Laura Horton: Right. So I’ve booked my test drive online 1130. He [00:43:20] comes in at 1135. Can I help you? I said, yeah, I’ve got a test drive booked at half 11. He said, I’m going to be another [00:43:25] 15 minutes. I said, no, I don’t work for me. And he said, oh, well, um, sorry, but the people, [00:43:30] um, and we’ve now turned up late and she wasn’t confident driving. I was like, and. [00:43:35]

Payman Langroudi: And, uh.

Laura Horton: And I was like, why can’t you just give me the keys or sign the paper and take it [00:43:40] out? He said, no, I have to come with you now. And I was like, oh, whatever. Um, [00:43:45] I said, I’ve got two questions. One about the dash. I don’t like the colour, the other about [00:43:50] the wheels or something. I said, you know, and he answered them and he said, yeah, I’ll be 15 minutes. [00:43:55] I said, okay, because again, my little boy, bless him, was like, I want to be in the car. Um, [00:44:00] I’ll wait 20 minutes and walked out. He didn’t call.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t even call.

Laura Horton: He didn’t.

Leanna Best: Call? [00:44:05]

Laura Horton: No. Didn’t call to see if I was maybe in BMW across the road, I was. Like, [00:44:10] do you know what I mean?

Payman Langroudi: Like, it’s basically BMW anyways.

Leanna Best: Yeah. [00:44:15]

Payman Langroudi: So they’re together.

Laura Horton: So I was like, well, I was like, let’s go and look at these M4 BMW that, [00:44:20] um, mummy probably can’t afford here and all the company car tax will be too high. So, um, [00:44:25] yeah, it didn’t, cause I just couldn’t believe it. And it’s I’ve put a one star Google review on [00:44:30] and now they won’t stop calling me. No, no, it.

Payman Langroudi: Was so shocking.

Laura Horton: It was so shocking. I was like, I’ve got. [00:44:35] But if you look at my Google review.

Leanna Best: I can’t wait. I’m going to look at it.

Laura Horton: I know I only ever give five star [00:44:40] Google reviews. So if you look as you can see what reviews people leave, can’t you? Yeah. So you can see, oh that person always [00:44:45] leaves one star. Mhm.

Leanna Best: You can see.

Laura Horton: Mine are all five star. I’m a nice person for reviews. Like [00:44:50] I was just so annoyed that no one even acknowledged me. You’re not even by eye contact. [00:44:55] It is so rude. It’s just. And. But this happens in practice. People [00:45:00] walk in, patients walk in, and someone sat behind a screen.

Payman Langroudi: There’s not.

Leanna Best: Enough. You had that. So. But I.

Payman Langroudi: Had. [00:45:05]

Leanna Best: A with a full capacity of staff on front of house. Yeah. And [00:45:10] I walked in nothing. And then I felt awkward.

Payman Langroudi: I was in a private practice.

Leanna Best: Yeah. [00:45:15] And then I sat down and I was thinking, I’ll wait, because they obviously know who I am. [00:45:20] Mhm. And then I went up again and I said I’m here to observe today. 000. [00:45:25] And then obviously the energy, the energy shifted. And I just thought well it’s not gone very well for you [00:45:30] has it.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Leanna Best: Because if, if you’re doing that now and you know I’m coming. Yeah. Then what are [00:45:35] you doing when I’m not here? Yeah. You know.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Leanna Best: And it’s just not good enough. I just don’t think [00:45:40] it’s that hard to deliver good experiences.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but when was it? When was the last time you had a great [00:45:45] customer service?

Leanna Best: In May.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Uh, not.

Leanna Best: One bad experience.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:45:50] very rare. It’s very rare.

Laura Horton: I’m trying to think.

Leanna Best: But do you feel like because of our experiences [00:45:55] and what we also expect from our point of view, are bars high? [00:46:00]

Laura Horton: Yeah, I think my expectation is high.

Payman Langroudi: It is. But but there should I mean, there’s, you [00:46:05] know, come on. There should be, there should be there should be lots more great [00:46:10] customer service.

Laura Horton: There should be. Yeah. And we really don’t do enough in this country. No. Do you know one [00:46:15] of the things.

Payman Langroudi: But then also remember this? Yeah. We don’t like the hotel you stayed at in Dubai. You’re [00:46:20] not routinely going to hotels.

Leanna Best: Like, everywhere I went.

Payman Langroudi: In.

Leanna Best: Britain, the newsagents I went in [00:46:25] in the mall.

Payman Langroudi: The service was hired out. I went [00:46:30] to Manoir aux Quat’saisons. The service was extraordinary. [00:46:35] Extraordinary.

Laura Horton: Can you tell us?

Leanna Best: Give us an example.

Laura Horton: Was it a celebration? I’m assuming. [00:46:40] Or a bucket list?

Payman Langroudi: No, no, no, my my buddies have moved away. [00:46:45] And then they all said, oh, we haven’t. Our kids don’t even know each other. Let’s go to a hotel [00:46:50] with the kids. And it was two days before Easter. And then he called and he said, I’ve got good news [00:46:55] and I’ve got bad news. Good news is I found a hotel. Bad news? It’s this place. [00:47:00] And it was like the biggest number I’d ever heard per night. Yeah.

Laura Horton: Bring your credit card.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:47:05]

Laura Horton: Or two.

Payman Langroudi: But the way they handled it, because we had a bunch of naughty kids [00:47:10] and there was a bunch of celebrations going on. People. People go there for big events.

Laura Horton: They do. [00:47:15]

Payman Langroudi: Wedding anniversary. And the guy just. He was showing us around, and he went, and this is the library. And [00:47:20] then some kid bounced the ball. Yeah. And I saw him notice that. He stayed [00:47:25] calm. And this is. And kids were making too much noise, and they basically decided just to cordon [00:47:30] us off from everyone else. But in an amazing way. Yeah, like they put you [00:47:35] in this other room, which was, like, even more amazing than the room that you were going to go to for breakfast. And [00:47:40] there they put a PlayStation and they just managed us so well. [00:47:45]

Leanna Best: Yeah. Without making you feel like an inconvenience at all?

Payman Langroudi: At all you felt like a VIP. [00:47:50]

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Laura Horton: And what’s interesting is you haven’t mentioned the food yet.

Payman Langroudi: Unbelievable. Unbelievable. [00:47:55]

Laura Horton: It’s experience first, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: I mean, from the first moment [00:48:00] the doctor Langroudi. We’ve been expecting you. You know, because they ask for [00:48:05] your number plate or whatever. Yeah. And then somehow everything gets done for you. Toys [00:48:10] holding up the names of the kids in the rooms, you know, like, just brilliant. [00:48:15]

Leanna Best: Just brilliant. Wow.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That was the best in Britain.

Leanna Best: Mhm.

Laura Horton: Yeah. [00:48:20]

Payman Langroudi: But the rest of Europe.

Laura Horton: I’d love to. I’d love to go there. Yeah. I really would. It’d [00:48:25] be amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Good for.

Laura Horton: You. Yeah. I really want to go. Yeah, it’s on my list. One day of things [00:48:30] to do. Ash went there years ago. I think it was his wedding anniversary and just absolutely raved about it. [00:48:35] It was. And yeah, he’s like, it’s the best thing. He’s.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the kind of thing you need to, like, take your staff to see what [00:48:40] what is amazing service, you know.

Laura Horton: So on that then. Yeah. That again is, [00:48:45] I think, something that practices don’t do enough of if they want to elevate their basic [00:48:50] customer service. Take your team I know it’s nice to go bowling things like [00:48:55] that.

Leanna Best: It’s not nice to go bowling.

Laura Horton: You know not no one wants to put their shoes on. Um, [00:49:00] they’re.

Leanna Best: Not there anymore.

Laura Horton: No, they brought them back in. I said I’m not putting them on. It’s not happening. But [00:49:05] isn’t it nice that I think some of the things that ash did with us is, you know, took [00:49:10] us to nice to a nice restaurant for dinner. Mhm. Um, and we really appreciated [00:49:15] it because it might be a restaurant that we wouldn’t go to normally. Yeah. Um, because it’s [00:49:20] not Miller and Carter, you know, and we’re team members and to go to this nice restaurant [00:49:25] and be treated nicely and get to experience all of that. I think that’s invaluable. [00:49:30] To go and show your team.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, and not only from the perspective of learning, [00:49:35] but also from like a respect perspective. Yeah, like the idea that I, me and my partners, [00:49:40] the directors go to this nice place, but then if we’re going with the team, we don’t go to that [00:49:45] place. It shows a disrespect for your team, you know, because at the end of the day, that [00:49:50] respect point is the most important point. If you want to get your team to do anything, [00:49:55] they’ve got to feel like you respect them. Yeah, yeah. And this sort of thing shows it. I [00:50:00] mean, I think the main thing is how you talk to them and all of that. It’s really important that you mustn’t ever [00:50:05] use the fact that you are the boss as the weapon.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And we see a lot of that in dentistry.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Laura Horton: Yeah, [00:50:10] definitely.

Payman Langroudi: A lot of that dentistry.

Laura Horton: So where do you think great cultures are created from [00:50:15] then? Do you think it’s the top? Where do you see?

Payman Langroudi: I think so. I think so.

Laura Horton: It has to be, [00:50:20] doesn’t it? It’s leadership, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: I think so, um, although that said, the [00:50:25] bigger the organisation gets, the much harder it becomes.

Laura Horton: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: You know, and [00:50:30] I know corporates have had such a bad rep in dentistry, but they’ve [00:50:35] fixed their game up. And I sort of take my hat off to them sometimes, you know, like you go [00:50:40] to my dentist sometimes it’s like 600 practices and good morale [00:50:45] going on in those. I’m sure there’s some that aren’t good morale. There were many [00:50:50] that weren’t good morale before.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and I noticed that myself when we got to [00:50:55] about 40 employees, it started to get much harder when everyone [00:51:00] doesn’t know everyone on a personal basis.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then we worked on it, and [00:51:05] we made it again. But but, you know, let’s say it’s 140. You know, plenty of people who’ve [00:51:10] got ten practices. It’s 300 employees. Whatever. It is.

Laura Horton: Really hard.

Payman Langroudi: The bigger it gets [00:51:15] the harder it gets. Um, I also want to ask another question.

Laura Horton: Go on. I [00:51:20] can’t help.

Leanna Best: It.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve only worked in 4 or 5 practices as an employee and actually be [00:51:25] there as an associate. And even in those 4 or 5 practices, a good number of them there [00:51:30] was two power bases.

Leanna Best: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. Does that resonate.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That question of like [00:51:35] there might be a practice manager and this head nurse. Yeah. And all their [00:51:40] teams work for them.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And kind of some woman on woman [00:51:45] violence.

Leanna Best: Yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Leanna Best: Woman.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Leanna Best: So true. [00:51:50] Yeah. Yeah.

Laura Horton: Yeah. What’s worse, though, is when it’s the practice manager and the, like, head [00:51:55] nurse together.

Leanna Best: Oh, well, then that’s even more power.

Payman Langroudi: Is much of your work solving [00:52:00] these problems?

Laura Horton: I think we.

Leanna Best: Do a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Of good [00:52:05] at it.

Laura Horton: You’re so good. We do, don’t we? And the practice owners are usually a bit stuck [00:52:10] in the sense of they don’t have the time. They know what they want. They know how they want their team to [00:52:15] feel. They want all of these wonderful things for their teams. It’s not that they’re not wanting to buy them [00:52:20] a microwave. They want all of these things. It’s just how do they make it a reality? And [00:52:25] it’s about understanding how you can break things down into [00:52:30] smaller, achievable points. Because I think the other problem then is [00:52:35] the practice owners, the vision, big thinker, big picture person, and they present [00:52:40] a big picture when actually the team needs smaller bite sized chunks to move forward with. [00:52:45]

Payman Langroudi: I’m guilty.

Leanna Best: Of that.

Laura Horton: Yeah. And then we’re not overwhelming them. And I think when [00:52:50] the team can also really see that there’s investment in them, particularly the reception team, because [00:52:55] they tend to be overlooked quite a lot. And when they can see there’s investment in them, it builds [00:53:00] starts to build that level of respect. I really love the Five Levels [00:53:05] of Leadership by John C Maxwell. Have you ever read that at all? It’s absolutely amazing. I use [00:53:10] it all in management training because it’s a guide to help you become a level five leader, [00:53:15] which is a big thing. Um, I always say aim for level four. Like let’s get [00:53:20] to level four with everyone within your team. And it’s basically about not just [00:53:25] so level one is I’m the boss. Do as you say. Level two is we found some common ground. [00:53:30] So I actually like you because we both like EastEnders. Okay. Um, and [00:53:35] then level three is about what you’ve done for them. So if you’re then progressing [00:53:40] that person supporting their development doesn’t have to be about putting them on courses, but just helping them grow individually. [00:53:45] Then you’re moving up and then level four is what you’ve done for the organisation so they can see [00:53:50] you do good for the team, but you also do good for the business overall, which naturally benefits them [00:53:55] with pay rises, further education, nice restaurants, things like that.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:54:00] level five.

Laura Horton: Level five is to me like Nelson Mandela.

Leanna Best: I knew you were [00:54:05] going to use him. Yeah.

Laura Horton: So level five is, um, someone who. So I tell [00:54:10] you who’s a level five leader to me has always been ash. Um, because it’s about what he stands [00:54:15] for in regards to the greater good as well. Um, as well as [00:54:20] level three and four, um, and what they do for others and, and that type of [00:54:25] aspect as well. But I think if practice managers and owners can get to level four, that’s [00:54:30] really great for them and it really helps them. And so I would always draw [00:54:35] out the steps and get them to right where they are with each person, and then they can start. They’ve got their own plan now, [00:54:40] right? I’m level one with this person. I’ve got to get to level two as quickly as possible. Um, right. I’m already level four with them. [00:54:45] Great. Cool. We’ve got a great relationship.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so it’s individual per person.

Laura Horton: That’s what I would then get them to [00:54:50] do.

Leanna Best: Because your relationship can be quite strained with someone.

Payman Langroudi: With a particular.

Leanna Best: Person.

Laura Horton: And we’re naturally [00:54:55] drawn to those, those level four, level three relationships will naturally be drawn to anyway. We’re going to give each other a good energy every [00:55:00] day, aren’t we?

Leanna Best: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Laura Horton: The level one person, um, we’re not we’re [00:55:05] not passing good energy across here. We’ve got to move it quite quickly. I found that book [00:55:10] absolutely fascinating when I read it.

Payman Langroudi: It was the author.

Laura Horton: John C Maxwell.

Leanna Best: Were you [00:55:15] a PM when you read it?

Laura Horton: Uh, no, I wasn’t, but straight away. So I was [00:55:20] in consultancy, but straight away I was like, this is now a method for leadership development, which [00:55:25] everyone needs. Yeah, everyone needs this. So I’ve taught this for years on to managers and practice [00:55:30] owners because it is it is a method and it’s steps that you can climb to.

Leanna Best: To.

Laura Horton: Bring [00:55:35] everyone together.

Leanna Best: I think sometimes when you get that divide, especially with a PM versus the team, [00:55:40] say for instance, or PM and owner is almost like, are you accessible enough as a [00:55:45] PM? Are you just shut away in your office and then you’re only available now and then and [00:55:50] you pop out, but you’re busy and you’re doing stuff and you don’t really have that open dialogue with the team. And [00:55:55] then if you don’t always explain things and they just find out that [00:56:00] then creates a really negative like that. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And will you PM as well.

Leanna Best: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:56:05] you were PM as well.

Leanna Best: Yeah I was a short time because then I progressed onto [00:56:10] a sort of lead of a corporate small corporate for their tcos, which was much better suited to [00:56:15] me anyway.

Payman Langroudi: Tough job.

Leanna Best: Tough job. Horrible.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, really? I had Mark Allen, you [00:56:20] know, from Bupa. Yeah, yeah. And he’s been in a whole lot of corporate, you know, he’s a proper corporate guy. An [00:56:25] insurance guy. Yeah. He said PM’s the hardest job.

Laura Horton: Yeah, it’s the hardest job because you’ve got [00:56:30] to be non-emotional. Yeah, you’ve got to be non-emotional. Yeah. Because you’re in management. Yeah. [00:56:35] But you’re also expected to be providing leadership, which is emotional. Leadership [00:56:40] takes time. You’re already fighting fires all day long. As a manager you haven’t got the time. Yeah. [00:56:45] And it’s a constant tug of war. It really, really is. It’s a really hard job. [00:56:50]

Leanna Best: And especially if you’ve become a PA and you were a nurse originally or [00:56:55] front of house. Yeah. Because then all of a sudden you’ve changed roles within the same business with the same people. [00:57:00] And what were your friend colleagues who now.

Payman Langroudi: Know suddenly you’re their boss? [00:57:05]

Leanna Best: Yeah. Yeah. And also I’ve seen that happen. Not with me. It was with colleague and she managed [00:57:10] to switch it really well, but there was a really difficult time period and I felt for her. I [00:57:15] was a I, we had a level four relationship anyway, so it didn’t really impact me. But I used [00:57:20] to see her and think, oh, she’s really suffering with this. It’s quite difficult. Um, so yeah, I wouldn’t necessarily [00:57:25] like to have that journey.

Laura Horton: But PMS, they’re not often given any training either. No, they’re [00:57:30] just chucked in. Some haven’t even got a job description and they’re just chucked in. Oh you’ll, you know great. [00:57:35] You’ve been here the longest. You can be my practice manager. There’s no job description. There’s no [00:57:40] clear. They’re just fighting fires all day long that I feel sorry for that, that reactive management. [00:57:45] Whereas if you can move someone into proactive management it’s really lovely. And then [00:57:50] they really do start to enjoy their jobs every day. You’ve got to have some reactivity. Of course you have things [00:57:55] break, things go wrong. It’s practice.

Leanna Best: Dentistry.

Laura Horton: Dentistry, but [00:58:00] trying to move things into being proactive. But some people don’t help themselves either, do they? They won’t [00:58:05] delegate. They take it all. I’m going to take it all. I’m going to take all of this on. I’m not delegating [00:58:10] a thing. This is all mine. It’s like, well, you’ve got a team of people that can save you three hours a [00:58:15] day and feel valued because you’re you’re asking them to help you. No, no. [00:58:20] And that’s a mindset issue.

Payman Langroudi: But out of the roles, I mean PM’s got so many different roles. Exactly. Out of [00:58:25] the roles, which are the ones that are like the key ones? The ones, the ones that for you define the difference [00:58:30] between like a good PM and a great PM.

Laura Horton: So for me, a good [00:58:35] practice manager is one that gives time to leadership, is proactive who trains [00:58:40] their team, delegates to their team, builds their roles up, and that allows them to [00:58:45] do the leadership to be that leader. Because you can’t you can’t do both. [00:58:50] And that’s the problem with leadership. It takes time. You need to be able to give time to that every day, to [00:58:55] be with your team every day, to be speaking to your team every day. If you’re as I.

Payman Langroudi: But get specific, I mean, as [00:59:00] far as delegate, delegate, which aspects.

Laura Horton: Any little tasks you look at your task list, what can [00:59:05] someone else in my team can someone else in my team do this for me? Okay, they’re probably not going to do the wages for you because it’s confidential [00:59:10] information. But can they, you know, scan in and upload some [00:59:15] receipts to zero? Yes. You know, there’s so many things that practice managers [00:59:20] do that they can actually delegate to their team. And it’s very simple things. [00:59:25] It’s more admin based tasks because a practice manager doesn’t want to be an administrator. [00:59:30] No, they are practice manager. They should be managing the practice. They should be leading the practice.

Payman Langroudi: And do you believe [00:59:35] in the hiring and firing of the of the non non-clinical or even the nurses? Do you think the manager [00:59:40] should be making those decisions.

Laura Horton: In regards to hiring? I [00:59:45] think everyone should be involved in hiring, so the whole team should be involved in [00:59:50] it.

Payman Langroudi: Meet the how involved.

Laura Horton: So what I used to do was someone would arrive for an interview, [00:59:55] they’d come in, they’d um, first of all be met by the team. I’d always do them [01:00:00] at the end of the day interviews as well, so they’d be met by the team. Someone in the team would get to sit and talk to them, [01:00:05] and then they’d come in and be like, yeah, she was a she anyway. But she, you know, [01:00:10] she seems really nice. See I’ve got a good feeling. Okay. Or they’d come in [01:00:15] and I’d be like, okay, well look. Stage one interview, a bit of a chat. Get [01:00:20] the awkward things out of the way. This is your pay. These are your hours. And then they’d get a tour by [01:00:25] someone else, and someone else would be able to chat to them. And if the team were like, absolutely no [01:00:30] way. First impressions, they’re not for us, then I wouldn’t take it any further. If the [01:00:35] team said, yeah, I think, I think she’s good. And I obviously agreed as well. Okay, let’s [01:00:40] get them back for a second interview and then we’ll take it forward.

Payman Langroudi: But you think that I mean, the principle.

Laura Horton: Doesn’t [01:00:45] need.

Payman Langroudi: Doesn’t.

Laura Horton: Need to be involved.

Payman Langroudi: We did that. Really?

Leanna Best: Yeah. We did that with Neil. Yeah. And [01:00:50] but the difference was it would be if it was a nurse, the nurses would interview [01:00:55] them. And then the second interview was with the manager. Yeah. Neil wouldn’t get involved [01:01:00] because he would just stress us all out. He wouldn’t look for the same things that [01:01:05] we’re looking for. And at the end of the day, they’ve got their, um, probationary period [01:01:10] anyway. So if they don’t work, we’ve got that to look after us, so to speak. And then when I became [01:01:15] TCO, it was myself and manager that would interview, and then it would just end with [01:01:20] us.

Payman Langroudi: And the, you know, the situation of you hire someone, [01:01:25] okay. They get through that probationary period. How soon do you fire them if they’re incorrect? [01:01:30]

Laura Horton: Quite quickly I would yeah. So I’d always do. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So I kind of figure it [01:01:35] out quite quickly. You don’t you don’t, you don’t start making excuses for them, you know like changing their situation [01:01:40] or.

Leanna Best: I think Laura doesn’t. But I think that does happen.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So happens a lot.

Laura Horton: Yeah. This is what [01:01:45] I’ve learned, right. Six months probation.

Payman Langroudi: Six months.

Laura Horton: Six months. Because after [01:01:50] four months people can’t keep up the act any longer. So if they’re acting [01:01:55] that they’re.

Payman Langroudi: No. I thought maybe like in the first week you realised, oh.

Laura Horton: In the first week phone in.

Payman Langroudi: Sick.

Laura Horton: Do you really, [01:02:00] really shouldn’t you.

Payman Langroudi: If on day one someone turns up ten minutes late. Is that a [01:02:05] big red flag?

Laura Horton: So straight away we’ve got a contractual issue. So straight away it needs to be an inform. [01:02:10] I love HR here. Are you ready? Straight away. It’s into an informal meeting, so just confirm your start [01:02:15] time is 9 a.m.. You should be here. Changed. Ready to work for 9 a.m. today? [01:02:20] You’ve arrived at 9:10. What’s the situation? What’s happened today? Because you [01:02:25] have a bit of empathy.

Payman Langroudi: My bus, my bus, my bus.

Laura Horton: Yeah. Okay. So how are we going to avoid this happening again? You [01:02:30] can get up a bit earlier, set your alarm clock. Stop snoozing it. Yeah. Get an earlier bus. Fantastic. [01:02:35] And then hopefully it doesn’t happen again.

Payman Langroudi: And then let’s say in four weeks time, it happens again.

Laura Horton: We’ve got another contractual issue so [01:02:40] then we can move it forward. So I’d be calling the HR company I need to move this forward now. This is [01:02:45] normal. Yeah. Yeah because it’s contractual issue.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah I like that.

Laura Horton: You’re an employee.

Leanna Best: It’s because if you don’t [01:02:50] it can spiral and become a culture.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah I get it I get it.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Laura Horton: Yeah. So so then you can [01:02:55] start moving into warnings and such. But this is where managers need training again isn’t it. It’s [01:03:00] the communication.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a common situation, right? Because so many people are late.

Laura Horton: And.

Leanna Best: I think [01:03:05] they get away with it.

Laura Horton: Yeah. And then you’ve got flexible working requests now as well so people can submit them more frequently [01:03:10] now.

Payman Langroudi: I think, you know, you guys have to also be aware I mean, you are aware [01:03:15] of it, right? My teams, most of my teams come in 1 or [01:03:20] 2 days a week. Yeah. Yeah. And the rest of the time, they’re at home.

Leanna Best: Yeah. [01:03:25] And I bet they work for longer at home. Not necessarily.

Payman Langroudi: Well, the reason why it’s working [01:03:30] for us is because our office is in Camden, and some of them were driving, like, [01:03:35] or tubing an hour and a half to get there and an hour and a half to get back. That’s [01:03:40] hard. Yeah. A waste of life. Exactly. And, you know, the cumulative waste of life. [01:03:45] Yeah. Yeah. Because it’s expensive, right? So they were living in all sorts of miles and miles [01:03:50] and miles away just to come to Camden and work. And we I sat with my partner and [01:03:55] said, look, the cumulative time that these people are travelling. It [01:04:00] was like 45 hours. It’s stupid. Yeah. A day of travel [01:04:05] was happening, and I was saying, even if one third of that is sort of [01:04:10] helping us somehow, that’s sort of worth it. But what my point is clinical [01:04:15] teams have to turn up.

Laura Horton: Yeah, they’ve got to. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And they see their friends who work at enlighten. [01:04:20]

Laura Horton: Yeah. Yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And and so.

Laura Horton: They’re at the gym at 730.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:04:25] yeah. And by the way, it’s so, so so we know there’s a recruitment [01:04:30] crisis in dentistry. I think it’s everywhere. Yeah. But this fact, the fact that you’ve [01:04:35] got to be there every day when they look around at their friends and we’re different. I mean, two days [01:04:40] a week, it’s one day or two days a week. It’s very little. Most companies are doing four.

Leanna Best: Yeah, [01:04:45] four.

Payman Langroudi: Days a.

Laura Horton: Week.

Payman Langroudi: But there is one day off.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Off?

Laura Horton: Yeah. Working from.

Payman Langroudi: Home. Working from. [01:04:50]

Laura Horton: Home? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Whereas whereas our nurses and receptionists and things can’t do that. Right. And so [01:04:55] there must be some empathy for that or some pay rise for that. And [01:05:00] this is the awful thing. Dentistry. It’s the lowest paid job. Being a [01:05:05] dental nurse of of many jobs and one of the hardest jobs. Nurses are the [01:05:10] ones running the whole show.

Laura Horton: It’s really hard. Really hard job.

Leanna Best: Really? Really hard. Yeah. And [01:05:15] especially if you’ve got a huge practice and you’re Bankston from different dentists who have completely different needs [01:05:20] communicate completely differently. And every day you’re adapting.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:05:25] told me that you were sent in with with all the difficult dentists that you could [01:05:30] handle anyone.

Laura Horton: Yeah. Yeah. To love it.

Leanna Best: It’s not my story.

Payman Langroudi: But tell me. Tell me about [01:05:35] times where, like, a dentist has been rude. Just like.

Leanna Best: I.

Payman Langroudi: Pulled rank or something. [01:05:40]

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very common, isn’t it?

Leanna Best: Yeah. Not so much now, I don’t think. Um, [01:05:45] well, maybe the last.

Payman Langroudi: Not anymore though.

Leanna Best: No. When I was nursing, in the end, [01:05:50] a lot of it, um, was women. And they were younger than me. So there was a different dynamic, [01:05:55] maybe.

Payman Langroudi: Female on female violence again.

Leanna Best: No, no, it was female on female love. It was it.

Payman Langroudi: Was.

Leanna Best: Love. [01:06:00]

Payman Langroudi: It was love. Okay, good.

Leanna Best: But yeah, most of if I’ve ever had a bad experience, it was with [01:06:05] an older male, and I would just shut down and become like a child and would be. [01:06:10] Yeah. Yeah, I’d be really nervous. Yeah. I wouldn’t be able to react in the way that I [01:06:15] would normally react if I wasn’t in work. Um, and I just wouldn’t say anything at all. But [01:06:20] then that would quite quickly be obvious to them and they’d say, are you okay? And I’d be like, [01:06:25] oh, not really. But never really explain. I was quite frightened, to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: Invoked something [01:06:30] from your childhood.

Leanna Best: Maybe. Yeah. I was just like, no, absolutely not. I’m not. I’m not going to [01:06:35] say anything. I’ll just shut down.

Laura Horton: I think most nurses do, though, when they’re spoken to [01:06:40] in a, you know, unprofessional manner. Most nurses, particularly younger nurses, [01:06:45] will just see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think maybe because I was.

Leanna Best: There from a young age. [01:06:50]

Laura Horton: Yeah. And they’ll then they’ll as soon as they walk out the door. Cry. Yeah. Walking home. You [01:06:55] know they won’t say anything.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve had several dentists now who did nursing because of the, you know, [01:07:00] overseas thing.

Laura Horton: Yes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: One of them told me when I said, what did you learn about [01:07:05] being a nurse? Because, you know. And she said, do you know that time when [01:07:10] you grabbed the suction off the nurse? That’s really hurtful.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I never [01:07:15] thought that. I never even for a second, for a second thought there’d be any problem with [01:07:20] me taking the suction. And because you know.

Leanna Best: What you need.

Payman Langroudi: I’m [01:07:25] not saying anything about what you’re doing.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I just have to take care of the situation. And she said it’s so, [01:07:30] so painful when that happens because you feel like you’re not doing your job right. And it’s interesting.

Leanna Best: The names of [01:07:35] things don’t change the name because I don’t know what you mean this time. I had a dentist that I.

Payman Langroudi: Worked when they asked [01:07:40] for a particular thing with a different name.

Leanna Best: A different name. And I’m like, where is that? And they’re like, you know, [01:07:45] the thing? And I’m thinking, no, I don’t know because it’s a different name. Yeah.

Laura Horton: And charting, you know, you’ve [01:07:50] now got the European charting, you know, and you’ve got one dentist doing that and another [01:07:55] doing what I call the normal. Yeah. And you’re like, oh, hang on, which is, which is tooth [01:08:00] number 11 again. Hang on, hang on a minute. You know.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, I go into practice and ask nurses, [01:08:05] do you notice the same dentist all the time or different and much more common that it’s different dentists.

Laura Horton: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Why [01:08:10] doesn’t make any sense.

Leanna Best: I think to maybe you’ve got flexibility. Flexibility? [01:08:15] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And not in my life if I, if when I was a dentist and I haven’t been dentist for 13, 14 [01:08:20] years when I was a dentist, if you took my nurse away, that would really hurt like hell. Because we knew we knew [01:08:25] what we were.

Leanna Best: Because you were nice, though. So she liked.

Payman Langroudi: Or I was like, but but I’m saying I [01:08:30] needed her. Like I really needed her full handed. Like she used to do the [01:08:35] shade.

Laura Horton: Bit.

Payman Langroudi: Like she used to do a bunch of stuff. For me that was important. And when she wasn’t there, it was a nightmare [01:08:40] because.

Laura Horton: So do you know the reason the practices are doing that is because they’re getting everyone [01:08:45] trained to the same level. That’s what they’re trying to do, so that every nurse is like your nurse now. [01:08:50]

Leanna Best: Yeah, we all worked exactly the same.

Laura Horton: That’s what they’re doing. Yeah. Every nurse is working to the same clinical [01:08:55] standard. That’s what that’s that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Possible because there’s so many nuances. Each [01:09:00] dentist has got their own.

Laura Horton: It depends how many dentists are in the practice. It’s quite hard or the or the exact [01:09:05] opposite happens, which is the dentists are running the show and the nurses are not, you know, and they are [01:09:10] there just to have the suction and pass what’s needed. So it can go either [01:09:15] way. But when I’ve done it, it’s the nurse. Everyone’s trained to the same level. Everyone can nurse with each dentist at [01:09:20] the same level. So it’s not there to stress the dentist.

Payman Langroudi: When we trained in Cardiff, the [01:09:25] it’s just so happened we became really pals with the nurses on the full handed [01:09:30] part of the clinic. Yeah. So they used to just save us the chairs. And so I only learnt [01:09:35] forehanded. Yeah. I didn’t learn anything else.

Laura Horton: That must have been really stressful then when you weren’t with a full handed [01:09:40] nurse.

Payman Langroudi: The first day of first day of. Yeah, I get there and I just put [01:09:45] my hands out like a like a the princess. And she.

Leanna Best: Went.

Payman Langroudi: She went. What are you doing? And [01:09:50] I said.

Laura Horton: Instruments.

Leanna Best: Please.

Payman Langroudi: You look like. Hello. [01:09:55] And then. And then she goes, they’re over there like, on my side. And I wasn’t even like it was my [01:10:00] first day of. I had no idea what to move. I said, no, no, no, no, no, I can’t have these here. These have to be on your side. [01:10:05]

Leanna Best: No. Can I be there?

Payman Langroudi: And do you know what she did? Got up and quit. Quit [01:10:10] the job? Yeah. Now it wasn’t me. I think it was. It was a straw. It was the straw that [01:10:15] broke the camel’s back. She said I’ve had enough of this shit. Just.

Leanna Best: Just quit. Quit the [01:10:20] job.

Payman Langroudi: So then the principal’s coming in. First patient, first day. Yeah. My nurses just got up [01:10:25] and walked out and said, what the hell did you say to her? And I was like, I just said, [01:10:30] hold it.

Leanna Best: Please. Can I have my instrument?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Leanna Best: Were you [01:10:35] precious about the pressure, the way they put it in your hand?

Payman Langroudi: No, man. No no.

Leanna Best: No.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, good. You know, by the time I said, [01:10:40] oh, you do this and this to switch it and I’m out. Oh.

Laura Horton: Were [01:10:45] you upset that day?

Payman Langroudi: God! First job, first moment, first moment. Yeah. Oh. [01:10:50]

Leanna Best: That’s so sad.

Payman Langroudi: That should have been my confession.

Leanna Best: That shouldn’t be.

Laura Horton: So we’re [01:10:55] gonna have to move on anyway. Let’s do your confession. Confession [01:11:05] of a dentist or what?

Payman Langroudi: No, no no, no. It’s a funny one. It’s a funny one.

Leanna Best: Go on.

Payman Langroudi: Then. So, do [01:11:10] you remember from when we started enlightened? An enlightened one from. We started [01:11:15] enlightened till 2012 to 2000 and 1 to 2012. Bleaching [01:11:20] was illegal.

Laura Horton: Yes, I do remember because it was the state trading standards [01:11:25] that stopped it, didn’t they? Because someone got a bit on their trousers.

Payman Langroudi: Well, it was illegal. The law. The [01:11:30] written law was 0.1 percent. Yeah, but then we all ignored [01:11:35] that, right? All practices ignored that and suppliers ignored that. Some suppliers [01:11:40] ignored that. Actually, we managed to grow a lot in that period. You know. Big companies wouldn’t break the law. [01:11:45] And we managed to to grow a lot. And, you know, the way I thought about it was [01:11:50] either you’re going to bleach teeth or you’re going to put veneers on them. Yeah. And I will I will go to [01:11:55] court to say I was bleaching the teeth. It’s better than sticking veneers on them or whatever it is. Anyway, [01:12:00] um, one day I think it was employee number two, so [01:12:05] maybe we were just one year in and, uh, she came in and said, [01:12:10] oh, by the way, this stuff’s, um, by the letter of the law. It’s [01:12:15] it’s illegal. And it was it was a time the office was the size of [01:12:20] this studio here. Like, that was the whole of enlightened was the studio. This room here. And I said, [01:12:25] by the way, yeah, there’s this thing that, you know, don’t worry about it at all. It’s just nothing. [01:12:30] And at the time we were to get around this law, we were separating [01:12:35] the peroxide from the gel.

Laura Horton: Ah, I remember this.

Payman Langroudi: We were doing in-office whitening with the light.

Leanna Best: Yeah, [01:12:40] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And we were separating. We were, we were telling the dentist, go buy peroxide chemical [01:12:45] from wherever. Yeah, but we had some peroxide around in the office [01:12:50] for demos. Yeah. Anyway, it was just one room and all the [01:12:55] stuff was in the same room. Like, we didn’t have a warehouse. It was just. It was a tiny business at the time. We [01:13:00] had 30 customers or something. So I’m explaining to employee number two. Yeah. And [01:13:05] with my wife was there as well. She used to work in the business at the same time. So, yeah, it’s just it’s a letter of the law. Don’t worry. [01:13:10] It’s nothing. It’s a nothing. But. But you should. But you should know. You should know. And so [01:13:15] she sort of raised an eyebrow. Okay. And then it was a serviced office, and we got a [01:13:20] call from the thing saying trading standards are here, and Trade Standard [01:13:25] never visited us before.

Leanna Best: That moment when you’re just.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. As I was explaining. Yeah. And then my wife [01:13:30] goes the peroxide, the peroxide, and she starts taking [01:13:35] it off the shelves. And just that moment, that face of that employee number two. [01:13:40] When she saw us running around, she stayed for.

Leanna Best: Years.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:13:45] her face that day. I’ll never forget.

Leanna Best: That. Can you imagine me.

Payman Langroudi: At Fawlty [01:13:50] Towers? Oh.

Laura Horton: And what happened?

Payman Langroudi: Nothing.

Laura Horton: Yeah. [01:13:55]

Payman Langroudi: Nothing. Nothing. Nothing bad.

Laura Horton: You said there’s no peroxide here, mate. [01:14:00] Move on.

Payman Langroudi: No, I actually, I actually had to. I said to him, he said it’s [01:14:05] a safety concern. And then I said, do you know not every yellow line is there for a safety [01:14:10] concern. And and then and then I told him in America it’s [01:14:15] 200 times. And he was like looking at his notes. You know, we we [01:14:20] talked about it. We talked about it.

Laura Horton: That’s a good.

Payman Langroudi: Thing. Yeah. It turned out okay. But just that moment was the funniest [01:14:25] moment.

Leanna Best: Oh how funny. I love that. I’ve never told that story before. Just as [01:14:30] you’re talking about it.

Laura Horton: They turn.

Leanna Best: Up. What are the chances?

Payman Langroudi: The way we ran around to get rid of this peroxide. [01:14:35]

Leanna Best: Peroxide? I love that.

Payman Langroudi: On her first.

Leanna Best: Day.

Laura Horton: I [01:14:40] think that’s brilliant. I like the.

Leanna Best: Four handed dentistry one as well.

Laura Horton: Yeah, that’s really good. Really good story. [01:14:45] Okay, [01:14:50] time for quick fire questions. Let’s get [01:14:55] to know you a little bit more. I’ve been having a great time here today. Very good, very good. Okay, [01:15:00] so, um, the first one I think is quite funny. Books or podcasts?

Payman Langroudi: I [01:15:05] sleep with headphones on.

Laura Horton: Um, [01:15:10] early riser or night owl?

Payman Langroudi: Night night. 1,000%.

Leanna Best: Really? [01:15:15]

Laura Horton: Right, right. What time do you tend to stay up till then?

Payman Langroudi: One. Two.

Laura Horton: Really? [01:15:20]

Payman Langroudi: If you leave me to my own devices. During Covid, I stayed up to four. [01:15:25]

Laura Horton: Wow.

Leanna Best: Doing what?

Payman Langroudi: Just listening. Pods. You know, like.

Leanna Best: Having [01:15:30] a lovely time.

Payman Langroudi: Flicking. Flicking? Yeah, I’m basically scrolling and listening to podcasts at the same [01:15:35] time.

Leanna Best: Lovely.

Laura Horton: What time? Like on a working week. Then say you’ll stay up to say one. What time [01:15:40] do you get up?

Payman Langroudi: Um. One thing I decided about seven years [01:15:45] ago was never to use an alarm again.

Laura Horton: Right. Wow.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So I like to wake up on [01:15:50] a trail.

Leanna Best: Oh. That’s lovely. No, not waking up to shock.

Payman Langroudi: Just for no. So everyone [01:15:55] knows my first meeting is 11.

Laura Horton: Right. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: You know, so I don’t have I don’t have a nine or a ten meeting, so. [01:16:00] But I’m up but I’m up. I’m up at, like.

Laura Horton: Wake up. Naturally. Yeah. Living the dream.

Leanna Best: So [01:16:05] you’ve got low sleep needs then really get older.

Payman Langroudi: You’ll find the same thing.

Leanna Best: My dad used to say that to me. Yeah. [01:16:10]

Laura Horton: I. What are you.

Leanna Best: I used to [01:16:15] be early morning, but now I’m more night because I feel very tired since having children.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s [01:16:20] a me time thing.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I think I get my me time at night.

Leanna Best: That’s a really.

Payman Langroudi: Some people get [01:16:25] up at 5 a.m. and get their me time.

Leanna Best: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Early in the morning?

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Laura Horton: See, my husband’s a night owl, [01:16:30] so he’ll start watching all sorts of rubbish, and I’ll go to bed, but I actually he’ll laugh if [01:16:35] he hears me saying this. Do you prefer to be up earlier? Because even if I can just sit and have a cup of tea. [01:16:40]

Payman Langroudi: I think in all couples one is one way and ones to avoid each other.

Laura Horton: Yeah, probably. [01:16:45]

Leanna Best: Yeah, makes that work.

Laura Horton: But but but mind you, saying that my husband wakes up really early as [01:16:50] well. He doesn’t. Just doesn’t have much sleep.

Leanna Best: Yeah. No, I think I’m more Night-Time now. And [01:16:55] it is the me time.

Payman Langroudi: Me time means me, doesn’t it? Yeah. No one else.

Leanna Best: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Laura Horton: I don’t have [01:17:00] any time at night now. Because Harry started going to bed so much later to the point I’m [01:17:05] like.

Payman Langroudi: How old.

Laura Horton: Is he? Nine. So 9:00 is his new bedtime and he’s not tired. [01:17:10] The next day he’ll sleep till seven.

Leanna Best: Mhm.

Laura Horton: Um, and he’s not, he’s not tired. [01:17:15] That’s just naturally I think. Oh gosh. He’s like my husband isn’t he. He doesn’t need.

Payman Langroudi: Much sleep seven, ten hours.

Laura Horton: Yeah. [01:17:20] Well that’s also the amount of sleep I need.

Leanna Best: Um that does stress [01:17:25] me.

Laura Horton: Nine till six would do me nice. Ten till six. Lovely.

Leanna Best: I much prefer getting [01:17:30] up at seven than six. Six doesn’t work for me. In my.

Laura Horton: Mind.

Payman Langroudi: Although although look, I [01:17:35] was at a restaurant two nights ago and I had a coffee at the end of my meal. [01:17:40] Yeah, it was like 930. Yeah. Yeah. And everyone was like, oh, coffee? Coffee [01:17:45] at 930. Wow. Like, everyone was like, really worried about me. And [01:17:50] I was like, yeah, not because I’m this. I’m tired. Yeah. I’m tired. And [01:17:55] you don’t realise how tired you are? No, because you just get into the swing of things. Yeah. And I remember when [01:18:00] I was trying to get extra sleep, then when I would get, like, seven hours, then I’d feel tired. [01:18:05] And it’s a weird thing. You’re killing yourself slowly. So. Yeah.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Laura Horton: Yeah. [01:18:10] I declared on holiday that when we got back from holiday, I was going to start getting up at 5 a.m. and my [01:18:15] husband’s reaction was to laugh hysterically.

Leanna Best: Especially this time of year. The worst.

Laura Horton: It’s the worst [01:18:20] time for you. If you’re going to do it, do it in spring when.

Leanna Best: The.

Laura Horton: Clocks change and we live in the middle of nowhere, it’s pitch black. We’ve got no [01:18:25] street lights, no pavements, nothing like it’s like it’s just the wrong time to do it. Just I was like, okay, I won’t do it then. [01:18:30] Right. Next one. Spontaneous or planner.

Payman Langroudi: Spontaneous.

Laura Horton: Oh, lovely.

Leanna Best: I [01:18:35] reckon I knew that.

Laura Horton: Yeah, I love that. That’s fantastic.

Leanna Best: It’s really fun.

Laura Horton: Yeah. [01:18:40]

Payman Langroudi: I can’t just. Bad planner.

Leanna Best: Mm. Do you know what happens when you plan? Sometimes if [01:18:45] it goes wrong, that’s more upsetting than if it was just, like, off the cuff.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:18:50] Spontaneous?

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Laura Horton: Yeah. I’d love to be more spontaneous, I think. Now I’m not. [01:18:55] I’m a planner.

Leanna Best: But you’ve got the spontaneity.

Laura Horton: Oh, I want to be, I want to be, I enjoy it. It’s [01:19:00] fun, isn’t it?

Leanna Best: I want.

Laura Horton: To be. Yeah. I want to be like, sorry. Let’s just go and jump on a train. Go to London. [01:19:05]

Leanna Best: Today. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How far? How far ahead do you book your holidays?

Laura Horton: Oh, well, I’ve just booked up until I’ve just booked, [01:19:10] um, 14 months ahead. It’s my current one.

Payman Langroudi: You just paid for a holiday.

Laura Horton: 14 months deposit. [01:19:15] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Where are you.

Laura Horton: Going? That one’s Centre Parcs, 14 months. [01:19:20] Because you’ve got to get. You’ve got to get a good price.

Leanna Best: I’m looking on holiday.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. [01:19:25] See if you suffer with that.

Laura Horton: Yeah. So. And also I like to go to nice places, so I’ve got to book in advance [01:19:30] to get the best price. I’m not going to book last minute.

Payman Langroudi: I pay too much.

Laura Horton: You probably [01:19:35] pay double.

Leanna Best: What you do last minute.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Like I sometimes I book, like, a [01:19:40] week ahead.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Leanna Best: I couldn’t be that spontaneous. I need to know what clothes I’m wearing. [01:19:45]

Laura Horton: It’s not that.

Payman Langroudi: Get your clothes.

Leanna Best: To the outfit.

Payman Langroudi: The cost [01:19:50] is way.

Leanna Best: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Laura Horton: Like I really like. And I don’t want people to think I’m snobby here, [01:19:55] but I really love the Ikos resorts and.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I.

Laura Horton: Of course, [01:20:00] all over Greece. There’s one in Mallorca now, another one in, I think Portugal, and there’s one in Marbella, but the [01:20:05] Greek is the Greek ones for me, I love them.

Payman Langroudi: And is it? How much cheaper is it when you book [01:20:10] that far ahead?

Laura Horton: Well a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Is it.

Laura Horton: Yeah, it’s a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Because I’m [01:20:15] just thinking flights. I mean, I played I paid some ridiculous price for flights to nice. Yeah. Because [01:20:20] it was a week ahead.

Laura Horton: Yeah. And but it was the summer as well. Yeah. Yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Extortionate [01:20:25] peak season.

Laura Horton: Yeah. Extortion. Absolutely. Rob. Absolutely. Rob. Blind. But. So I [01:20:30] like to go to these places, and they are really expensive. But so. And Centre [01:20:35] Parcs like that’s not cheap. That’s not cheap.

Leanna Best: At.

Laura Horton: All. No. It’s my son’s favourite holiday. Is it. [01:20:40] Yeah. He loves it more than anything. And so I’ve got to book these things far [01:20:45] ahead to be able to like I can’t.

Payman Langroudi: Afford what you.

Laura Horton: Want. Yeah. I can’t justify paying double [01:20:50] the price for. I wouldn’t do it. Whereas, like my sister said, I just looked at ICOs. This was earlier [01:20:55] in the year. I just looked at ICOs for the summer. It was 20 grand for the four of us. I was like, well, yeah, because you’re looking [01:21:00] at going three months before they’ve only got the biggest rooms left. The [01:21:05] villas, it’s all booked out. You’re not gonna you’ve got to book really far ahead to [01:21:10] get the right price. Also I want good seats on the plane, so I don’t want [01:21:15] to have rubbish seats and things like that. So. But I’ve.

Payman Langroudi: You’re very organised.

Laura Horton: My parents have always been like that [01:21:20] though. My parents, my mum.

Leanna Best: Always book stuff.

Laura Horton: Yeah, I need to know. I’ve got these things to look forward [01:21:25] to as well as a bit of that. Yeah. Um, right. Phone call or text message it. [01:21:30]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I was thinking about it. 95% of all my communications are [01:21:35] texts. Yeah, but I’ve got my 6 or 7 people who I.

Leanna Best: That’s like [01:21:40] me. Yeah.

Laura Horton: That’s really nice, isn’t it? Voice notes. Do you do voice [01:21:45] notes? No. I knew.

Leanna Best: You wouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: I can’t bring myself to do.

Laura Horton: Yeah. We love a voice note, but that’s mainly because, [01:21:50] like, this morning, we couldn’t talk because of connection issues on WhatsApp and the phone. Like, so just [01:21:55] voice.

Payman Langroudi: I like getting them. Yeah. Don’t put them out.

Laura Horton: Okay.

Leanna Best: I’m like walking down the [01:22:00] street. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Laura Horton: Uh, luxury or simplicity? [01:22:05]

Leanna Best: Go on.

Payman Langroudi: It’s another one of those. It’s a difficult one. [01:22:10] It’s a difficult one because a lot of simplicity is luxury as well. Yeah. Like, I don’t know if you’re thinking [01:22:15] about, I say this Airbnb, it was like this. It was minimalism, like.

Leanna Best: To.

Payman Langroudi: The top. [01:22:20] Yeah. It was bloody expensive. Yes, it’s that luxury.

Laura Horton: That’s luxury. That’s luxury.

Payman Langroudi: Simplicity. [01:22:25]

Laura Horton: Would you go camping?

Payman Langroudi: I’ve been. No, no, no. Luxury.

Leanna Best: I’d [01:22:30] say that’s.

Laura Horton: That’s simplicity, isn’t it? Camping.

Leanna Best: Would you.

Laura Horton: Camping? [01:22:35] Not really.

Leanna Best: I love the face change.

Laura Horton: No, it’s difficult because I’m thinking. Harry.

Leanna Best: It is difficult. [01:22:40] It’s not enjoyable.

Laura Horton: I wouldn’t for me, my biggest priority at all time is sleep. Yeah, [01:22:45] so if I’m not going to sleep, I don’t want to go.

Leanna Best: Stresses you out? Yeah, yeah.

Laura Horton: Okay. [01:22:50] What have you got on your ones?

Leanna Best: Oh, okay. Big picture or detail orientated? Big [01:22:55] picture. Yeah. Okay.

Laura Horton: Got that from earlier.

Leanna Best: Structured agenda or free flowing meetings.

Payman Langroudi: Free flowing. [01:23:00] I hate meetings, I hate meetings. Do you hate meetings?

Leanna Best: Why? [01:23:05]

Payman Langroudi: Just a tough man, I don’t know.

Leanna Best: They are tough.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes I’m sitting in a meeting. [01:23:10] It’s about my subject, in my company, with my people. And [01:23:15] I’m like, I want to be out of here.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I was talking to my brother. He’s a doctor, and, um, [01:23:20] they’ve got terrible lives, doctors.

Leanna Best: Really.

Payman Langroudi: Tough lives. And I was saying to him, [01:23:25] the one good thing is you don’t have meetings. Meetings are so hard. I don’t like meetings, man.

Laura Horton: I used to say, [01:23:30] we have meetings about meetings, and I find it really frustrating if we’re going to have a meeting. Can we just. [01:23:35] Let’s make some progress. Let’s move forward. I can’t see people just sit and talk and like, yeah, let’s do this. [01:23:40] And then nothing actually happens. That’s my infuriation.

Payman Langroudi: That happens too.

Laura Horton: But do you think it’s more just [01:23:45] it’s your time.

Leanna Best: You just.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t.

Laura Horton: Like. You just want people to make the decisions.

Payman Langroudi: I just don’t like meetings.

Leanna Best: Do [01:23:50] you find them intense?

Payman Langroudi: One on one? Yeah. Yeah. I’d love. Yeah, but arguments [01:23:55] and meetings and people are wed to their ideas quite a lot. I’m in sales and marketing, and that’s [01:24:00] where I am. Yeah. And so in marketing, the. It’s a difficult one. You want [01:24:05] people to come up with ideas? Yeah. But then there’s arguments about ideas. Yeah.

Leanna Best: Yeah, yeah. [01:24:10] It can be really uncomfortable. Yeah. And what I don’t like about meetings. So if you said to me, let’s have a meeting, I’m [01:24:15] not stressed out. Yeah. But if I was in a different situation, maybe with somebody that I don’t know [01:24:20] so well, or somebody who I know is intense and very direct. Absolutely. [01:24:25]

Payman Langroudi: By the way, by the way, zoom meeting.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: With all kind of strangers. [01:24:30] Yeah. That horrible first two minutes where you’re, like, asking, like trying to get. [01:24:35] And you don’t know whether you should start the meeting. I hate it.

Leanna Best: Yeah. Uncomfortable.

Laura Horton: Do [01:24:40] you know what I still find very interesting? That happens to me. Not so much now, but it [01:24:45] still happens is when I get messages or voicemails [01:24:50] or even emails from people that are, you know, in the trade and, [01:24:55] um, and they’ll be like, oh, I just wanted to arrange to meet up with you to have a talk about. [01:25:00] And I think, what planet are you on? What planet are you on? I don’t know you. You’re [01:25:05] some random man most of the time. Oh, okay. Yes. There’s no problem. Are you free next [01:25:10] Wednesday to meet in some random place in London?

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t that your first [01:25:15] sort of top of funnel?

Laura Horton: No no, no. It’d be like. Like you. Yeah. Hi. [01:25:20] I’m Payman. I’ve got this whitening product. I think it’d be really good if we could work together. Do you want [01:25:25] to come and meet me? Why not? Oh, I don’t know who you are. I’m not going to meet.

Payman Langroudi: Someone from a security perspective. [01:25:30] Okay.

Laura Horton: Meet some random man.

Payman Langroudi: From a security. Yeah, I didn’t I [01:25:35] didn’t understand that.

Laura Horton: Sorry. Yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: Thought. I thought you were saying your time’s too precious and you can’t.

Leanna Best: No, no, [01:25:40] she’ll say, book a call in. Here’s your. Here’s the link.

Laura Horton: I’m not going to meet some random man in [01:25:45] a hotel. You know I’m not that kind of girl. No, [01:25:50] but I find it really interesting how the.

Payman Langroudi: Other side doesn’t see it.

Laura Horton: No. And I’m [01:25:55] like, no.

Payman Langroudi: But what do you think’s going on there? Do you think they’ve got intentions?

Laura Horton: No, not at all. But I’m [01:26:00] just like.

Leanna Best: Is there a preference to have that conversation face to face?

Laura Horton: Yes. Yeah. But I don’t know [01:26:05] you. So let’s meet at a show or something like that. That’s like.

Leanna Best: A.

Laura Horton: Blind date. Yeah. [01:26:10] I’m not just going to go and meet some random man.

Leanna Best: Mhm.

Laura Horton: Um.

Leanna Best: How uncomfortable For [01:26:15] the first time.

Payman Langroudi: I get it, I get it. No, no, I do get it. Yeah, I get it. Yeah. If [01:26:20] it was a woman, would you turn up?

Laura Horton: Probably. I probably am I. Yeah. If I was interested [01:26:25] I probably would. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um there’s literally a sort.

Laura Horton: Of it’s just literally.

Payman Langroudi: Security.

Laura Horton: Because [01:26:30] you watch these programs, don’t you, on Netflix. You do documentaries. And [01:26:35] even before that, you know, I remember years and years ago, just very quickly on digressing the conversation here, [01:26:40] um, you know, on your website, you have to have like an address or whatever, don’t you? So obviously [01:26:45] I had my home address back in the day. And then one Saturday I kept getting all these phone calls [01:26:50] and I’m not answering my phone on Saturday anyway, I kept ringing and ringing [01:26:55] and I thought, this must be urgent. This person’s called me 20 times now. Have I told you this? [01:27:00] And it was this guy. And he said, oh, hello, are you Laura? And [01:27:05] I said, yes, speaking. And he said, oh, I really want [01:27:10] to come to your house for you to teach me how to brush my teeth.

Leanna Best: Oh, [01:27:15] no.

Payman Langroudi: Go on.

Laura Horton: It wasn’t a prank, right? And I was like, what the hell? And [01:27:20] I was like, no, I just hung up. My husband, now husband was there. [01:27:25] He was like, what the hell was that? I was like, I don’t know. I said, but the first thing that popped into my [01:27:30] mind is my address is on my website. And I ever since then, I’ve used a virtual address [01:27:35] because you just don’t know what weirdos are out there, do you?

Leanna Best: It didn’t turn.

Laura Horton: Out. Yeah. No, it didn’t turn up. But, [01:27:40] um. Yeah. So so things like that of like, they spook you, don’t they? [01:27:45] And then I just but I find this interesting in the trade that these messages still go out. Hey. [01:27:50]

Leanna Best: I think if I was London based honestly and I had that [01:27:55] and it was in the area and it’s busy, I wouldn’t have a problem with meeting in a coffee shop. Yeah. And they [01:28:00] had like a well-known website and I could look them up. That wouldn’t necessarily.

Laura Horton: But they’re not usually [01:28:05] well known.

Leanna Best: No. Then. No.

Laura Horton: So I wouldn’t mind meeting payments. Not an [01:28:10] issue.

Leanna Best: No. But then you know him. That’s cheating. Yeah. Not playing the game.

Laura Horton: But [01:28:15] yeah, I find it odd. Found it.

Leanna Best: Odd. Inbox zero or organised chaos.

Payman Langroudi: Chaos? [01:28:20]

Laura Horton: Yes. My kind of man.

Leanna Best: Me.

Payman Langroudi: Total chaos.

Leanna Best: Remote first or [01:28:25] office first?

Payman Langroudi: Like I say, we’ve really moved. We’ve really changed our position on that. So? [01:28:30] So. And by the way, we’ve got a whole team in South Africa.

Leanna Best: Wow.

Payman Langroudi: Like a whole team. It’s like five [01:28:35] people.

Leanna Best: It’s a whole team.

Laura Horton: Still a team.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but like, if you if you call enlightened, there’s a 5050 [01:28:40] chance that your calls going to South Africa or coming here. And, um, the good thing about South [01:28:45] Africa is there, um, time zones? Very.

Laura Horton: That’s what I was about to say. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The customer [01:28:50] service orientation is way more than if you if you pick up a random [01:28:55] person from South Africa and a random person from the UK, they’re way more they’re more like Americans or. [01:29:00]

Leanna Best: Australians.

Payman Langroudi: In that sense.

Laura Horton: So do you go over there often? No, no, [01:29:05] no.

Payman Langroudi: We just put an ad on Indeed.com Is that a yes? [01:29:10] There’s a little legal piece that you have to get, right?

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but we’ve had some of [01:29:15] our best people are out there.

Laura Horton: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but but the sort of the remote thing brought that on because [01:29:20] we thought of our team sitting in Ilford. Could be sitting in South Africa. Well, this [01:29:25] is it’s half the price.

Laura Horton: This is what I think is also great, though. It’s not about the price. It’s about the quality of the people. If [01:29:30] it’s a remote job, you’re getting to pick the best. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like, the good thing about South Africa is [01:29:35] that the quality of the applicants was brilliant.

Laura Horton: Yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: Bet a lot of good applicants. [01:29:40]

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and then their economy is very difficult. But, [01:29:45] look, there are clear disadvantages. Yeah. Yeah. Because culture wise, you can’t quite know [01:29:50] for sure. No. Um, people worry about people doing two, three jobs like that. You know, [01:29:55] there’s these sort of things.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But we’ve just got we’ve had a great deal. And we’ve also got rid of someone [01:30:00] who wasn’t great. But. Yeah, but we’ve had a great, good 3 or 4 people there.

Laura Horton: That’s really.

Payman Langroudi: Good sales. [01:30:05]

Laura Horton: Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s great. Very good. Fantastic.

Leanna Best: This is great, by the way. Yeah [01:30:10] I have. Have you enjoyed.

Payman Langroudi: It? Definitely.

Leanna Best: Good.

Laura Horton: It’s been really nice to be together.

Payman Langroudi: Is [01:30:15] it the difference? I hate a meeting, but I love a conversation. It’s weird.

Leanna Best: It’s not weird, but it’s very organic. [01:30:20] The way today’s gone.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, there’s. There’s nothing. There’s nothing expected of you in a conversation. But [01:30:25] in a meeting.

Leanna Best: Yeah, yeah. Expectation. Yeah. You’re our.

Laura Horton: Only expectation. Was a funny [01:30:30] story, a confession. And that was.

Payman Langroudi: It.

Laura Horton: Yeah. There you go. There you go. Yeah. Fantastic. Brilliant. [01:30:35] Right then. So we’ll wrap up now and say thank you so much for hanging out with us.

Leanna Best: Thanks for hanging out. [01:30:40] Yeah.

Laura Horton: Thank you so much, everyone. Um, and as always, please subscribe. [01:30:45] If you’re on YouTube like us, give us a five star review. And, um, I’m [01:30:50] sure you already listened to the Dental Leaders podcast, and so thank you very much. [01:30:55]

Payman Langroudi: People are always asking me what events they should go to if they want to learn about aesthetic dentistry, [00:00:05] and I always recommend Bard British Association of Aesthetic Dentistry. Their event is generally [00:00:10] at the end of January. This year would be 30th and 31st of January at the [00:00:15] beautiful Hilton Syon Park in Isleworth. And what I’ve realised is [00:00:20] Bard Lectures is this one stage with the closest thing we have in the UK [00:00:25] to an international sort of scientific meeting, because all the speakers are top notch [00:00:30] and they have lively debates, and people from all over the world come to lecture at this event. [00:00:35] For me, the main thing about Bard is that you have these friendships that end up [00:00:40] being formed there, and then you’ve got people to call and you know, the great and the good are all there. So if you’ve never [00:00:45] been before, have a look at their website for details. They’ve got about ten tickets [00:00:50] left, so join us.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:55] is Dental Leaders. The [00:01:00] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [00:01:05] Your hosts Payman Langroudi [00:01:10] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome [00:01:15] Nikki Kiani onto the practice. Nikki is a specialist prosthodontist. Now Nikki. [00:01:20]

Niki Keyhani: Well, we’re waiting for the GDC certification but just finished the [00:01:25] training.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve just finished the specialist training. A practice owner from squat. Yes. [00:01:30] Daughter of a dentist.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, yeah, that’s probably the bit I’m most proud of.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:01:35] should be proud of a lot. You know, considering 2017 is when you qualify. You just told me. Yeah. You’ve [00:01:40] done a lot. Are you, like this ambitious cat you’ve always [00:01:45] been or. Or did you, did you. Is there a is there a time you can think back to when you weren’t that [00:01:50] cat and something flipped?

Niki Keyhani: No, no, I’ve definitely I mean, I love this adjective [00:01:55] of ambitious, but I wouldn’t think of myself as ambitious. I would say I’m passionate. [00:02:00] I’ve always been incredibly passionate of whatever I do. I want to take it the [00:02:05] extra mile. I want to do more. I want to see more. Um, and yeah, that [00:02:10] that can come across as ambitious and people call it ambitious. But to me that’s just passion. That’s just my passion. Kind [00:02:15] of.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but were you that nine year old as well?

Niki Keyhani: I was that three year old. Like everyone at 7 p.m., we [00:02:20] need to go up and brush our teeth because control. Let’s go guys. Yeah, 100%. [00:02:25] Yeah. It was that one. That was that one. All right.

Payman Langroudi: So look the benefits of that are obvious. Is [00:02:30] there a downside to it as well.

Niki Keyhani: I, I worry that I can be [00:02:35] narrow minded because sometimes when you’re so focussed. Yeah, sometimes when you’re too focussed, [00:02:40] I don’t want that to take away opportunities or other insights [00:02:45] I could have. So I’m constantly have to like check in on myself and make sure that [00:02:50] that’s not the case. Make sure I don’t just blind in make sure I don’t just narrow in. Um, [00:02:55] but again, I think people influence you. And the lucky thing I have is I have [00:03:00] a family. I have a sister who’s not in healthcare at all and is she’s a solicitor. And [00:03:05] sometimes there are situations. She’s the opposite of me, polar opposite. She’s ambitious.

Payman Langroudi: You’re [00:03:10] older, she’s older.

Niki Keyhani: So sometimes there will be situations where I think, what [00:03:15] would what would Nina do? What would she do? How would she cope with this scenario? And then it just kind of [00:03:20] reminds you that there’s there’s more than one.

Payman Langroudi: You have like sibling rivalry around like, no.

Niki Keyhani: Not [00:03:25] at all.

Payman Langroudi: So were you the brainy one and she was the funny one or what was the what was [00:03:30] the funny one?

Niki Keyhani: Because you haven’t.

Payman Langroudi: Got kids, have you? No. [00:03:35] So with kids, what tends to happen is the kid says something funny and [00:03:40] you laugh at it, and then that’s like positive feedback. So they say something funny, then you [00:03:45] start saying he’s funny.

Niki Keyhani: He’s the funny one.

Payman Langroudi: He’s the funny one. And then the next one comes along. [00:03:50] Yeah, funny. He’s taken.

Niki Keyhani: They have to take their.

Payman Langroudi: Own role and maybe gets a good grade on a thing. And you [00:03:55] say, oh, he’s clever. He’s like. And then the next one comes along and he like kicks the ball. But [00:04:00] funny and clever are taken. And they say billionaires are fourth kids because [00:04:05] everything’s taken. So they have to become quite, quite, quite inventive with with what they [00:04:10] are.

Niki Keyhani: I hadn’t heard that one before, but I like that. Um, luckily, no, not in [00:04:15] our scenario. Not in our situation. I mean, there’s six and a half years between us.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I see.

Niki Keyhani: So it wasn’t rivalry. It [00:04:20] was very much guidance. And, you know, wanting to follow in her footsteps. [00:04:25]

Payman Langroudi: Like she’s at the next stage of life now that.

Niki Keyhani: You said yeah, she’s got my little niece and [00:04:30] she’s she’s in that world. Yeah. Which is nice. It’s nice to be [00:04:35] an aunt.

Payman Langroudi: You being. I mean, I’m calling it ambitious, but all I’m saying is like going [00:04:40] to Kings and then coming out and then going to the Eastman and then. Which you did [00:04:45] right for for a PG and then deciding to specialise, starting a squat. [00:04:50] You know, you’re this cat who’s, who’s doing loads of things and in a [00:04:55] short space of time. Have you? Are you going for the I want it all [00:05:00] move like.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, pretty.

Payman Langroudi: Much husband.

Niki Keyhani: Children. What was driving me [00:05:05] throughout all of that.

Payman Langroudi: Wanting it.

Niki Keyhani: All. I want it all. Like my dad would be the main person who’d be [00:05:10] like, Nicky, you don’t need to do everything at once. Yeah. And I was like, I don’t need to, but wouldn’t it be great?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:05:15] No, no.

Niki Keyhani: Great.

Payman Langroudi: Do you accept do you accept that like, with any endeavour that’s like remarkable. [00:05:20] Like, I’d say what you’ve done is quite remarkable. Thank you. There is a degree of sacrifice. [00:05:25] Yeah. Like for me. Look, we brought out a desensitiser pen. One, one little pen. [00:05:30] It wasn’t like space X or something. One little pen in that period. In that final [00:05:35] period, the last six weeks before we brought it out, there was so much going on from the manufacturer, [00:05:40] the regulatory perspective, in that six week period, I saw less of my children [00:05:45] and I missed. I missed the birthday or the birthday.

Niki Keyhani: There’s those sacrifices.

Payman Langroudi: So you must have made loads [00:05:50] of sacrifices.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, look, there’s loads of those kind of sacrifices, but actually I’m very much the [00:05:55] opposite to that because I feel like when I was growing up, there was a lot of and not inside my house, [00:06:00] but outside the house there would be teachers who’d be like, you know, do you want to be academic or do you [00:06:05] want to be this? Or they would be both. Yeah, both. Why do I have to choose? Why does it have [00:06:10] to be business orientated or clinical? Why can’t I do both in this world, in this day and [00:06:15] age? That’s what AI and everything is.

Payman Langroudi: Except that there are situations like do you want [00:06:20] to be private or do you want to be NHS? Both. That’s. Yeah, that’s.

Niki Keyhani: A different sacrifice.

Payman Langroudi: Do you want [00:06:25] to have children or do you want both? There are certain situations which which that applies to. So [00:06:30] my point is this for someone who wants everything, wants it all. Yeah.

Niki Keyhani: There’s [00:06:35] a what have you sacrificed?

Payman Langroudi: There’s a sacrifice. There’s a sacrifice that’s happening as you want it all. [00:06:40] So you can’t have it all because, look, you just sacrificed all this stuff. This stuff you haven’t got anymore. Yeah, those birthday parties [00:06:45] you didn’t get to. Yeah. So. So there’s that point. But then, especially for a woman, I don’t want [00:06:50] to be silly about it, it, but it’s different for a woman.

Niki Keyhani: I love this question. You’re [00:06:55] choosing the good ones.

Payman Langroudi: Especially this question. Woman. Yeah. Kids, husbands. Uh, [00:07:00] you know, and we were just talking about single practice or 42. Yeah. Something’s got to give. Something’s [00:07:05] got to give. Now, what is the thing that.

Niki Keyhani: Giving.

Payman Langroudi: That one? Well, let me tell you. Let me tell you. Let me tell you what? My experience of what gifts. [00:07:10] Yeah. Certainly not the business. Yeah. Because the business is its own little child. [00:07:15] Like if you let that give you, it’s going to.

Niki Keyhani: Have one baby.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You’re going to go bankrupt and there’s [00:07:20] going to be much more pain. Certainly not the child here. Because as a child you can’t you [00:07:25] can’t let that give. Um, so it ends up being a combination of yourself. [00:07:30] Yeah. Like maybe you go to Pilates twice a week. That stops the [00:07:35] relationship itself sometimes gives stuff. Gives. Yeah. [00:07:40] And I think the more sort of rounded way of looking at it is that some stuff will give. Yeah. It’s a [00:07:45] question of managing that stuff. Yeah. Because it’s a trap you can fall into. I’ve [00:07:50] been in it myself. Where you’re so hyper focussed. Kind of what you said. You’re so hyper laser [00:07:55] focussed on the goal that some things around the outside, you’re completely missing. And [00:08:00] just. It’s a healthy way of looking at it that some stuff will give rather than the disappointment [00:08:05] of. I didn’t manage to get it all.

Niki Keyhani: I haven’t felt that way. I [00:08:10] know this is not the answer you want, but.

Payman Langroudi: Haven’t got.

Niki Keyhani: There yet. Well, okay. So again, I was [00:08:15] this growing up very focussed, laser focussed kind of [00:08:20] person in my mind. My 20s were for me, my 20s were so that I could [00:08:25] develop my dreams and my ambitions, my passion. I am, [00:08:30] I’m just hitting. Yeah. 31 now. Um, and that’s [00:08:35] what it was for me. My 20s were every social occasion. I would make sure I was there because [00:08:40] I wanted to live. I wanted to experience travelling. Did it. There’s nothing that I haven’t [00:08:45] allowed myself. But absolutely, my focus was on my career, my [00:08:50] work and my ambition. And the beauty of that is that I always thought 30 [00:08:55] sound amazing. 30 are the years where I’m financially stable, I’m comfortable, [00:09:00] I’m not stressed. And now I can focus on part two of my five stage life [00:09:05] plan, you know? So yes, I’m sure there are sacrifices, but the beauty of [00:09:10] the way I don’t feel this narrative we give women of, [00:09:15] you know, if you want to be career orientated, be prepared to sacrifice family. No, don’t [00:09:20] don’t send out that propaganda out there. That’s not true. Like, especially within dentistry. I’m [00:09:25] in this point now where I work three.

Payman Langroudi: Days a week. You went to dentistry was so that you could [00:09:30] be flexible.

Niki Keyhani: I wouldn’t say it’s one of the main reasons, but it definitely had an impact. I thought, you know, this is a [00:09:35] career where not only am I clinical, not only is it scientific based, I enjoy it, but also [00:09:40] it makes sense as a lifestyle 100%. So I went from in September, I was [00:09:45] comfortably working five, six, seven days a week, evenings because you’re doing the admin, you’re [00:09:50] doing your lab work, all of that within the training program. And now I’m three days a week. You [00:09:55] know, it’s a completely different world. But absolutely, I’m now calm and I don’t [00:10:00] feel like there’s anything I have to sacrifice.

Payman Langroudi: And is that the way it’s going to be three days a week?

Niki Keyhani: I didn’t say that. I [00:10:05] said, Now I’m three days.

Payman Langroudi: Three days a week. While you were on the course, were you? [00:10:10] No, no.

Niki Keyhani: Definitely not. Definitely not. That was a that was a whole other ball game. [00:10:15]

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Let’s, let’s, let’s start from the beginning then how were you as a student?

Niki Keyhani: Which part? [00:10:20] Unlike undergraduate.

Payman Langroudi: Dental student.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Because in school you were very high achieving.

Niki Keyhani: I [00:10:25] actually I was a bit like, do what I need to pass, and then I’m [00:10:30] okay.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. How were you as an undergrad?

Niki Keyhani: Because I also wanted to do everything socially. Yeah. Like any social occasion, [00:10:35] I was like, yeah, I should I should experience every part of university.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah. So you grew up in [00:10:40] East Sussex.

Niki Keyhani: West Sussex, West Sussex.

Payman Langroudi: Come to London, the big city. Go [00:10:45] on. Who are you? Were you the party girl? Who were you? Which. Which student were you?

Niki Keyhani: I [00:10:50] was the chilled cat, you know. If there was something fun, I’d be there.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:10:55] as a student, did you find the work hard? The clinical hard. The exams hard?

Niki Keyhani: Luckily, [00:11:00] no. I felt like, um. I think because [00:11:05] for me, it was something I’d always wanted so bad.

Payman Langroudi: Really? How [00:11:10] long? When did you decide you want to be a dentist?

Niki Keyhani: When I was three years old, maybe.

[BOTH]: Oh, really?

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. It’s something [00:11:15] I just wanted so bad.

Payman Langroudi: Like I knew this is what I wanted.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, because of my mum. [00:11:20] And then when I grew up, I was like, this actually makes sense for me. Like, I think this career encompasses [00:11:25] everything I’m looking for. Um, so. Yeah. And [00:11:30] then my only fear when I started dental school was what actually happens if I hate this? [00:11:35] I don’t have a plan B. I’ve never, you know, daydreamed about something [00:11:40] else. This is what I’ve wanted since forever. What happens if I don’t like this? And obviously, [00:11:45] I mean, you know, there’s so many people who start dentistry and they get to year three, four, five and they go, actually, [00:11:50] I hate this.

Payman Langroudi: But also, did you not get that feeling? I’d say PhD [00:11:55] plus one because PhD is still a bit of fun, right? It’s still you still got a [00:12:00] group with you and yeah, there’s this sort of anything could happen, right? But PhD plus one. I remember [00:12:05] the first day in that practice I was in Kent, actually. Same story.

Niki Keyhani: Isn’t it? Amazing?

Payman Langroudi: English [00:12:10] people.

Niki Keyhani: Beautiful part of the world.

Payman Langroudi: Wonderful, wonderful. Really nice people. Yeah, but. But I remember sitting [00:12:15] in this room thinking, is this. It was that was that. Is this what all of that [00:12:20] was about, sitting in this room? And honestly, one of the initial sparks [00:12:25] of where enlightened might have come across was this childish feeling of even if I’m [00:12:30] the best dentist in the whole wide world, I’m only going to affect the four mile radius of Ashford, [00:12:35] Kent. And that practice and thinking.

Niki Keyhani: That’s your ambition, talking.

Payman Langroudi: That really. But that really did my head in. It [00:12:40] was childish. It was childish because I could have had 400 practices If I wanted to write, but I wasn’t thinking [00:12:45] that, and I was thinking of some way of getting out of that scenario where my impact was only on this four mile radius, [00:12:50] doing my head in. Yeah, but but forget that the disappointment of it. I mean, your mom was a [00:12:55] dentist, so you kind of understood.

Niki Keyhani: Well, yes, but also [00:13:00] no, because when you’re. I mean, we’ve all done it. Watch someone do dentistry and [00:13:05] you will genuinely think. Should I be doing this career? It is terrible to watch. Like, it’s [00:13:10] like watching paint dry. I’ve never been so bored in my life. Like she used to say all the time. She. You know. [00:13:15] Are you sure you want to do this career? Are you sure you don’t want to try something else? Are you sure? Because every time I [00:13:20] would go into the practice, I would be bored. And I would just say, can I go now? Like, this is watching dentistry is [00:13:25] so boring, but watching it and doing it is something completely different.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, true.

Niki Keyhani: Experiencing it, doing [00:13:30] something. You know, patients come in straight away. You’re clinical. I’m doing something is a different [00:13:35] ball game and it’s enjoyable and it keeps you on your toes.

Payman Langroudi: From the ambition perspective. Did you have [00:13:40] a thing in your head that you know? My mum was a general dentist, so I’m going to be a specialist. [00:13:45] Like was there something like that? No. Were there things about your watching your mum, things that you wanted [00:13:50] to do and things that you want to avoid? You want to be different to?

Niki Keyhani: There wasn’t that. But [00:13:55] I did use her as my inspo whenever I was struggling. So, um, [00:14:00] so when she studied, she obviously she studied in Iran first universities [00:14:05] closed, then she moved to Sweden, started dentistry, which was completely different [00:14:10] to what she was studying in Iran beforehand.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I started first year again.

Niki Keyhani: Yes. So [00:14:15] she didn’t study dentistry in Iran. She was doing, I want to say, maths or chemistry. She wanted [00:14:20] to do engineering. And, um, kind of coming on to a biology lifestyle was [00:14:25] completely different for her. So she’s starting from scratch in a language she doesn’t know. And then she has a baby [00:14:30] during her university years as well. You know, that really typical Iranian lifestyle of [00:14:35] tiny one bedroom flat and in-laws around all the time. And so whenever I [00:14:40] was kind of struggling with something again, that’s when I think appreciation came into, you know, you humble yourself [00:14:45] really quick and you just think, who am I to complain.

Payman Langroudi: When she’s.

Niki Keyhani: Done? When I’ve just watched my, [00:14:50] you know, I’ve heard all the stories from my mum have it so much harder. Um, [00:14:55] yeah. People had it a lot tougher than I had it. So whenever [00:15:00] the practice that mclindon, the pgdip that kind of overlapped [00:15:05] a little bit were getting a bit overwhelming, who was I to just not take [00:15:10] it in my stride and be.

Payman Langroudi: The best way.

Niki Keyhani: To grateful 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Way to live with gratitude. You know, [00:15:15] even in.

Niki Keyhani: The.

Payman Langroudi: Worst of times, you always know that someone works.

Niki Keyhani: Because you need to be lucky. You have those problems. [00:15:20] You know, you need to be thankful that those problems are problems you’ve been dreaming about [00:15:25] having. Now that you have them, don’t back down. Yeah. You know, get up and smash [00:15:30] through them. This is what you’ve wanted. This is what you’ve been asking for. Make it happen. It’s in your [00:15:35] hands now. So, yeah, I don’t think it was me [00:15:40] learning from her mistakes. But it was me going. Even with the practice. Any [00:15:45] difficulty I have, she had it ten times harder. So you can [00:15:50] do this.

Payman Langroudi: But what was. What was like? What was her advice? At what point did you think I’m going to be a specialist, [00:15:55] or did you always think you were going to be a specialist?

Niki Keyhani: I tell my mom pretty much everything. I [00:16:00] didn’t tell anyone that I applied for specialist training. And, um, [00:16:05] so it was I think I’d been an associate for one year. I was 25 at the time when I set up the practice [00:16:10] and, um.

[BOTH]: Wow.

Payman Langroudi: Straight into practice ownership.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. And, [00:16:15] um, so.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think I’m going to work in a few places, see what’s what before?

Niki Keyhani: Yes. [00:16:20] So everything I feel like that happened. Happened because of opportunity. And [00:16:25] I’m definitely one of those people who I like to say yes to every occasion because it [00:16:30] puts you somewhere else. It gives you, you know, a chance that you may not have again. So the opportunity [00:16:35] arose and I wasn’t going to pass that up. You know, it.

Payman Langroudi: Was some practice game for sale. [00:16:40]

Niki Keyhani: No, it was. So it was a new build area. It was an area that, like, I knew really well. [00:16:45] It was kind of perfect for everything I would have dreamed about if I didn’t get it. Then. Then [00:16:50] you know, what.

Payman Langroudi: Was it about it that made it so perfect?

Niki Keyhani: Um, so new residential [00:16:55] area. Um, new square.

Payman Langroudi: One of these, like housing? Yeah. Development things.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. Like [00:17:00] nice new houses. Really nice area. Um, an area I knew super well [00:17:05] where, you know, everywhere around it has already been saturated by dental practices. It just kind of gave me [00:17:10] the things. It was like tick, tick, tick, tick, tick.

Payman Langroudi: And you were sure you were always going to set up back home?

Niki Keyhani: No, [00:17:15] I was sure I was going to set up a dental practice. I didn’t know exactly where.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re thinking [00:17:20] London even?

Niki Keyhani: No, I wasn’t thinking London.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Why not?

Niki Keyhani: London is different life. I come from [00:17:25] the West Sussex countryside. Life where everyone knows each other.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s super sure you were going to live outside London.

Niki Keyhani: I [00:17:30] knew.

Payman Langroudi: It was. You live in London?

Niki Keyhani: I live in London, but I knew my business would not be in London. I like that [00:17:35] kind of feeling. Where patients know me, I know patients. You know that.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:17:40] is totally different. It’s totally different to that. In London you get this sort of mobile patient [00:17:45] base that, you know, people are here for a year and then they’re gone. You get [00:17:50] a distrust, like you’re saying a distrust situation when people don’t know each other. Yeah, there’s a distrust. [00:17:55] I remember I came from Kent. I was killing it in Kent. I’d moved to another private [00:18:00] practice, and I was coming back to London, to the city. And I thought, if I’m killing it in Kent, imagine [00:18:05] me in the city, like I’m going to. I’m going to kill it. And I just. Everything [00:18:10] fell apart for me like that in Kent. I had these lovely older patients, you know, who would [00:18:15] say yes to everything? Respectful. No. No issue around sensitivity. [00:18:20] They had no, they had no pops. And then. And then I get to the city banker types here. So [00:18:25] hard to sell to a salesman. Yeah.

Niki Keyhani: Like it’s a different ball game.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You can’t be one minute [00:18:30] late. There isn’t any sort of love in that. Yeah, it’s just a Transactional [00:18:35] thing. People underestimate that fact.

Niki Keyhani: Oh it’s huge.

Payman Langroudi: You onto that.

Niki Keyhani: I was [00:18:40] straightaway like, London is not the place that I want to be working. I want a calm countryside [00:18:45] life. Where or for my work, at least where patients come [00:18:50] in. They trust me. We have a relationship. They know the team, they know the practice. And it feels a bit like family [00:18:55] because that’s what dental practices were to me when I was growing up. You know, I was walking home from primary school [00:19:00] to my mum’s place, kind of like, oh, hey, Millie. Hey, you know, Lindsey and. [00:19:05]

Payman Langroudi: The process itself of turning this building into a dental practice. Who helped you with [00:19:10] that?

Niki Keyhani: Well, so my dad’s an architect. Oh, lovely. Yeah. So, you know, [00:19:15] in that sense. Absolutely. I was, like, supported. And I was so [00:19:20] just incredibly lucky to have people around me who knew exactly what to do. [00:19:25] So I could just go to him and say, you know, I’d like this kind of design. I would like this kind of feel, [00:19:30] this kind of vibe. I would like this to be placed like this. And then he would do the drawings up. He would look after the construction. [00:19:35]

Payman Langroudi: And did it turn out the way you wanted it to?

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, it did. It absolutely [00:19:40] did. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I need to come and visit.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. You do. You’re welcome. Anytime. [00:19:45] You’re welcome.

Payman Langroudi: Any time. So then. Okay, now you’ve got you’ve got a beautiful practice. Zero [00:19:50] patience. Did you start the was it marketing process.

Niki Keyhani: So [00:19:55] I haven’t started. So five. We’re five years old August 3rd. So literally a couple days ago we turned five [00:20:00] up until four and maybe three quarters [00:20:05] of the years in no marketing.

Payman Langroudi: So what did you how did you get your first patient? [00:20:10] What will happen?

Niki Keyhani: Covid happened.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, God. Covid.

Niki Keyhani: Covid happened. So [00:20:15] we were meant to.

Payman Langroudi: Open massive push after Covid.

Niki Keyhani: So people tell me, oh, you [00:20:20] know so unfortunate about Covid for you. And I’m like, no. It was a huge help for me as a business, [00:20:25] hugely helpful as a business. So we were meant to open two weeks before lockdown [00:20:30] happened.

Payman Langroudi: It’s scary.

Niki Keyhani: And again, it becomes this [00:20:35] really like unknown time especially. I don’t know how to. I’ve never run a business before at this stage. [00:20:40] And now you’ve added a pandemic into it. And, um, it [00:20:45] was terrifying. Like genuinely terrifying. And then Covid ended. [00:20:50] We opened pretty much straight away as soon as we could. And there was this [00:20:55] list of patients begging to be seen because they couldn’t be seen anywhere, or, you [00:21:00] know, they.

Payman Langroudi: Had because it could be the worst timing or the best time. It was the best time.

Niki Keyhani: I feel so terrible referring [00:21:05] to a pandemic as a really great time for my business, but that’s truly what it was. It was so. [00:21:10]

Payman Langroudi: Thrown in at the deep end, right? Because then you had all the the what was [00:21:15] it called, PPE and the fallow time and all of that on top of.

Niki Keyhani: It at.

Payman Langroudi: That time, running a practice.

Niki Keyhani: At [00:21:20] that time. Yes, to all of that. But the, the biggest difficulty again. So add another complication. [00:21:25] Practice opens two weeks later. I’m due to start my, um clin dent.

[BOTH]: Oh.

Niki Keyhani: So. [00:21:30] And also there was intricacies in that as well, because [00:21:35] I was originally meant to go to Eastman, but for their lab course for the first three, four months, [00:21:40] you have to be full time. And I was I was just like, there is no way I can full time [00:21:45] leave this practice. Who’s just opening up? Team need me.

Payman Langroudi: Brave move [00:21:50] to start a practice and an implement at the same time.

Niki Keyhani: It wasn’t meant to be that way. I [00:21:55] didn’t plan it that way. Covid happened. Um, yeah, Covid [00:22:00] happened and changed my my timelines. Um, but I, I ran [00:22:05] with it again. Like, I’m not going to say no to an opportunity. I’m not going to say no to the chance [00:22:10] that, you know, starting in McLendon. I don’t know if I’m going to get that opportunity again. So [00:22:15] run you know.

Payman Langroudi: As far as the the education, how [00:22:20] did you feel about that? I mean, which part? All of it I mean the McLendon [00:22:25] part you’re you’re three you three years. Is it four years.

Niki Keyhani: So yeah. [00:22:30] So after undergrad, I didn’t really take any time off. Education. [00:22:35] I did like a little mini one. And then I did the diploma at Eastman, and [00:22:40] then I went straight on to the den. Yeah. Um, and that was three days a week for four years. [00:22:45] So we did part time, um.

Payman Langroudi: A fair degree of repetition in all of that, right? [00:22:50] Yeah, because a lot of a lot of I mean, a lot of it is the basics, [00:22:55] right? Getting the basics right. Yeah. A lot of people have gotten into bad habits and then they go, but you didn’t have that chance [00:23:00] to do that. But I guess clinically, you haven’t had much chance to to [00:23:05] try out the stuff on patients. So you hadn’t at the beginning.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. I mean, so that’s [00:23:10] kind of why I chose any. Course I did. It had to be part time. I didn’t want to completely stop my clinical [00:23:15] work. That’s the bit I enjoy. Um, and I would actually say so I [00:23:20] think it’s really, you know, under spoken about, but the diploma was amazing. [00:23:25] I to this day, I’m thankful for the education they gave me because it was extremely [00:23:30] thorough. The tutors were amazing. Yeah. It was. It was great.

Payman Langroudi: What’s [00:23:35] the full name of it?

Niki Keyhani: The pgdip in restorative dental practice. Um, [00:23:40] the tutors were incredible. Genuinely incredible. And they [00:23:45] are actually part of the reason why I then decided to specialise. Because, um, in [00:23:50] the first year I did quite well. And they kind of do one to ones with you. And the 1 [00:23:55] to 1 I had was with a prosthodontist and he said, you know, what are you thinking about your career [00:24:00] in the future? And I don’t know why I had no answer to this, because [00:24:05] it’s something that was constantly on my mind, but no one had ever even bothered to ask [00:24:10] me. Um, and that’s kind of when I thought about it. And [00:24:15] I went, well, I, I really don’t know. I have no answer to give you. What do you what do you think I should do? Give [00:24:20] me some advice. And he was like, you know, I think you’ve got the potential to specialise. Um. [00:24:25]

Payman Langroudi: I like the sound of that. Well.

Niki Keyhani: Honestly, [00:24:30] and again, this isn’t spoken about. I’m quite young looking, I would say. And I’m [00:24:35] female and that is classic underestimating. Oh, so [00:24:40] there was definitely no one who would go, hey, I think you’ve got something. Hey, I think it [00:24:45] was very much of underestimate. Underestimate. And he was like, no, I think you can do it. I [00:24:50] think you’ve got something here. I think you should think about it. And it’s like this guy went into like [00:24:55] an inception mode, planted it into my brain, and I was like, yup.

Payman Langroudi: Good [00:25:00] teacher.

Niki Keyhani: Got it. I’m there. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And yeah. Who was that? Who [00:25:05] was that?

Niki Keyhani: Uh, Neil Nathwani good teacher. Good teacher, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Someone who does that?

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. [00:25:10] Grateful for it.

Payman Langroudi: I’m so sorry. Sorry I had it off for the previous pod. [00:25:15] Um, yeah. So? So then [00:25:20] put it in your head.

Niki Keyhani: Put it in my head. And, um, the first thing anyone [00:25:25] tells you is you’re never going to get in on the first try. Yeah. Which I thought, great, [00:25:30] because I’m opening a practice. I don’t want to get in on the first try. I’ll apply. Um, got [00:25:35] in on the first try.

Payman Langroudi: And what did it take to get in an interview? [00:25:40] What else? Cv.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. So obviously online application reference [00:25:45] showcases. I don’t think you do. From my memory, you don’t know. You had to. [00:25:50] Obviously you had to do like a CV. You had to do references. [00:25:55] Um, very much like a Ucas kind of online [00:26:00] statement. Yeah, very much like that. Um, and then they invite you for interview [00:26:05] and then take it from there. Um, yeah. So.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re [00:26:10] saying it’s quite hard to get in?

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It was tough. Yeah.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, it was definitely. I mean, I didn’t think [00:26:15] it was going to be like that. I didn’t think the I was surprised by the level of questioning or their type [00:26:20] of questioning.

Payman Langroudi: Go on, go on.

Niki Keyhani: I mean, they asked me about clinical governance. Ooh, yeah. [00:26:25] That’s how I felt. And I just thought, you know, is. Is this what [00:26:30] it takes to be a specialist? You need me to know governance. Um.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:26:35] did you say to that?

Niki Keyhani: I answered.

Payman Langroudi: The questions. Well, you got it right. You [00:26:40] got it. So you.

Niki Keyhani: Got it. But I just I answered the questions and moved on. I mean, they obviously asked me a lot of clinical questions [00:26:45] as well, but I wasn’t expecting.

Payman Langroudi: Did they do they at what level did they ask the clinical questions? Did [00:26:50] they show you a case or something?

Niki Keyhani: So each interview was different. Um, [00:26:55] in one of them they would talk to me about cases and they would kind of talk about like, for example, what was hot in [00:27:00] prosthodontics at the time. So a lot about technology, a lot about, um, prosthetically [00:27:05] driven implant cases. Um, why you think it should be prosthetically [00:27:10] driven? Why not just, you know, whack it in where the bone is? These kind of questions, [00:27:15] which. Yeah, that’s the easy part, really, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Excuse me.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, [00:27:20] that’s the easy part. So yeah, it was good.

Payman Langroudi: Did you only look at kings?

Niki Keyhani: No. [00:27:25] Eastman. Eastman as well? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you didn’t get into Eastman?

Niki Keyhani: I did get into Eastman.

Payman Langroudi: So you decided [00:27:30] to go to King’s instead? Yes. Why?

Niki Keyhani: Because, Eastman, I would have had to do full [00:27:35] time.

Payman Langroudi: Full time? Yeah, that’s the one they call the marriage breaker or something. You [00:27:40] do all your own lab work?

Niki Keyhani: Yes. Yeah, yeah. It’s a lot of time.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:27:45] so tell me, like the dentist you were when you went in. And the dentist you are now. Like, what can you do [00:27:50] now? Can you, can you, like, pull off full mouth rehabs?

Niki Keyhani: I should hope so. It was four years [00:27:55] of my life.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So at what point in the course did that happen? Like, did they start at the very beginning? [00:28:00]

Niki Keyhani: That’s a good question, actually.

Payman Langroudi: Just talking to our mutual friend Eleanor. The first year she was sort [00:28:05] of.

Niki Keyhani: First year.

Payman Langroudi: Difficulty.

Niki Keyhani: She was first year is like now.

Payman Langroudi: She seems so [00:28:10] confident now as a as a clinician.

Niki Keyhani: Do you know what I think that’s the main thing for me is [00:28:15] that before I did the course, I, I could I had knowledge, [00:28:20] you know, I was definitely interested. I was definitely passionate about my clinical work. Um, but I [00:28:25] didn’t know that I could. I didn’t know where that theory was, like [00:28:30] putting into actual clinical work, how it was translating. Um, [00:28:35] and the point of the course, the reason why the course was amazing is because you’re on clinics three days a week. [00:28:40] So three days a week, I’ve got basically one on one time with my tutor where I’m performing [00:28:45] dentistry, and they’re just correcting me, correcting me, correcting me, correcting me. Um, yeah. [00:28:50] So what better what better way to learn? What better way to gain confidence [00:28:55] and know that you’re doing the right thing because you’ve just been corrected about a [00:29:00] hundred times? You’re not going to get it wrong one more time.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s talk about sort of aha moments or like aha [00:29:05] moments. Yeah aha moments in the clinical.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like at what point.

Niki Keyhani: Aha [00:29:10] moments. You mean when did you fuck up is what you’re trying to say basically. Yeah basically.

Payman Langroudi: Not [00:29:15] necessarily.

Niki Keyhani: But I feel that’s what you’re saying. I’m translating it for you basically.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s almost [00:29:20] like, I don’t know. Someone said to me, uh, occlusion. His aha moment was when he realised [00:29:25] it was as well as inside out. It was outside [00:29:30] in, um, he had an aha about that. Okay. Yeah. And he’s in veneers and things and that made a big difference [00:29:35] to the way he thought about veneers. So you know nothing went wrong or maybe something did go wrong before. So [00:29:40] what would you say. I mean it’s a ridiculous question. We’re talking about four years of study of a big subject. But [00:29:45] what comes to mind as aha moments like in the, in the area of formal rehab, [00:29:50] in the area of anything, anything you like.

Niki Keyhani: Ah ha moment, I would say, [00:29:55] I’m going to say a very obvious one planning like [00:30:00] if you how.

Payman Langroudi: Important planning.

Niki Keyhani: Is, how important you need to have that final, you know, [00:30:05] look in your mind, in the patient’s mind and then you’re just working towards it. You know, [00:30:10] you’re starting from the end and then making your way back. Um, so yeah, just [00:30:15] the the importance of the wax up, the try and the mock up and just making sure everything there is perfect, [00:30:20] and then you don’t need to worry about anything after that because the the case is planned and any complication [00:30:25] you’re prepared for because you’ve planned. So yeah, not underestimating [00:30:30] that section.

Payman Langroudi: And what about the sort of I mean, you haven’t had much chance to [00:30:35] or have you to, to, to to do it on real patients. Yeah. I mean in [00:30:40] practice. Yeah. So do they teach you that the, the sort of the patient management side of it, [00:30:45] or did you learn that as you go or.

Niki Keyhani: I mean they learnt you learn it as you go. But [00:30:50] obviously each case is different. Yeah. So you’re never there’s never going to be a case. This is the thing in dentistry [00:30:55] that we’re never really, truly taught. How do you deal with the impossible patient? And [00:31:00] I’m not talking clinically impossible because we’ve got textbooks for that. But there’s no textbook on what do you do [00:31:05] when the patient says something inappropriate or, you know, the [00:31:10] grey areas that we don’t really talk about, but we moan about. But there’s never a solution. There’s never [00:31:15] a lesson.

Payman Langroudi: I think the thing is though, if a if the same patient came to [00:31:20] you and came to me, I haven’t practised for 12 years. But let’s just imagine.

Niki Keyhani: We’ll [00:31:25] deal with it.

Payman Langroudi: Differently. The guy I was, the dentist I was when I stopped practising dentistry totally [00:31:30] deal with it differently. I’d be very like single tooth quadrant [00:31:35] orientated. I’d be very, very cosmetic orientated. Um, you’ve [00:31:40] got the skills to understand, like, you know, tooth wear and all that. And so you may have to break [00:31:45] to him a £30,000 idea, um, on [00:31:50] tooth wear, whereas I might not have even noticed this tooth wear going on. And I’m just [00:31:55] talking about.

Niki Keyhani: Which happens all the time.

Payman Langroudi: All the time.

Niki Keyhani: All the time.

Payman Langroudi: And I could just be talking about one crown at £1,000. [00:32:00] Yeah. Where something’s broken. Yeah. So what I’m saying is when you’ve got the knowledge, you’ve [00:32:05] got the situations where you can have to say these sort of things to patients who might not even [00:32:10] thought they had a problem 100%. So when what comes to mind like navigating that, is [00:32:15] it something that is it like the way they say sort of green, amber, red, where you start with the very basic [00:32:20] things, build a relationship, drop hints like what do you do?

Niki Keyhani: Honestly, [00:32:25] no, I don’t go by the green, amber, red. Um, but it is a problem [00:32:30] that I would say in Prosthodontists have to deal with all the time of basically [00:32:35] bringing things up that the general dentist doesn’t talk about.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Niki Keyhani: And the main thing we get is why didn’t they [00:32:40] pick it up?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Niki Keyhani: And you have to be intricate with your answer because you’re not [00:32:45] going to throw the general under the bus. And also you don’t need to throw them under the bus. They haven’t done anything [00:32:50] wrong. It’s just you may have picked up a few extra things. And I think as [00:32:55] long as you’re the I think the best way to sell is to be honest. Because [00:33:00] honesty is always the best answer in terms of if you [00:33:05] say to me, should I have a composite or amalgam? My honest, honest answer is composite. And [00:33:10] that just so happens to be the more expensive answer as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but the honest answer is this [00:33:15] dentist didn’t have the skill to understand what.

Niki Keyhani: But it’s about wording. Is it [00:33:20] that they didn’t have the skill, or is it that you know they are there to pick up, you know, [00:33:25] some common dental caries and decay and gum disease? And they’ve done that and now [00:33:30] they’ve identified that there’s something deeper. And that’s what they referred you to me for. So they’ve done their job. [00:33:35] They’ve identified that it needs to be taken one step higher. Um, and now I’m here [00:33:40] to do the rest. You know.

Payman Langroudi: There is a referral rate.

Niki Keyhani: If there is a referral.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So how much of your work is [00:33:45] that referral based now?

Niki Keyhani: I’d probably say 10%.

Payman Langroudi: 10%?

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s early days. [00:33:50]

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, it’s early days, but definitely 90% of my cases are actually patients. Again, [00:33:55] what I’m learning with prosthodontics is it’s patients who are unhappy. They’ve [00:34:00] just had treatment. Something’s gone wrong, and then they come to you seeking a second [00:34:05] opinion, or it’ll be the dentist has attempted something’s gone wrong, and then they’ve [00:34:10] referred to you to kind of fix it. Um, which is great because sometimes [00:34:15] it lowers the patient’s expectations. They’re a bit more realistic sometimes with their [00:34:20] expectations, because they’ve gone through a bad scenario already. Um, but [00:34:25] yeah, it’s it’s a hard one to navigate its treacherous waters.

Payman Langroudi: And do you get [00:34:30] something you must. It might not happen yet, but you must get the, the you know, the nightmare [00:34:35] patient referred.

Niki Keyhani: I had two in the last week.

Payman Langroudi: Referred to you?

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:34:40] that’s what sometimes happens to dentists. This patient is a nightmare for whatever number [00:34:45] of reasons that that can happen. And the dentist just thinks this can’t be bothered and [00:34:50] says, go see, go see an expert.

Niki Keyhani: Which, by the way, is what I did when I was a general. Yeah. You know, [00:34:55] that’s that’s what that’s what they’re there for.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what you guys are there for.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then, so then the approach [00:35:00] of that one is difficult. Right. Because you know, by the way, it’s happened to me a lot with the our [00:35:05] customers would send we we’d want to try out our next idea [00:35:10] on the hardest cases of them all. And so we put a thing out with our customers.

Niki Keyhani: But then it’s so [00:35:15] hard to say that because when we say the hardest case or when we say difficult patients. Each case is different. Yeah. [00:35:20] And that’s what it’s about. It’s about identifying why is this case different? Is it because of a clinical reason. [00:35:25] Because you can you can, you know, get by that as long as you’ve kind of explained everything thoroughly, you’ve written the [00:35:30] letter, you’ve drawn it in like two or 3 or 4 times. Is it because maybe [00:35:35] character wise, is it expectations? Because that’s the [00:35:40] first point, just identifying what kind of patient they are, what they’re expecting from [00:35:45] you so that you can make sure that you’re able to achieve that. And I have done that before where I’ve said yes, [00:35:50] I’m working at a specialist level now, but I don’t think I can achieve [00:35:55] what you have in your mind. And that’s not about skill, that’s not about, you know, even if I sent [00:36:00] you to the most talented dentist in the world, it’s not about that. It’s about are you being realistic? [00:36:05] Um, and so that problem doesn’t go away.

Payman Langroudi: Just when you draw that line, Is [00:36:10] it like more a sixth sense spidey sense thing or it’s.

Niki Keyhani: Partly intuition, [00:36:15] but then there’s, you know, it’s experience. There’s red flags that you see. There’s little things that.

Payman Langroudi: Pop up those what are those? [00:36:20] So, you know, you’re, you know, you’re a guitar. It’s. Yeah. So I asked her [00:36:25] this same question and she said, if, for instance, she can’t see the thing that [00:36:30] the patient’s seeing, then she’s hundred percent not going to treat that patient if she can see, [00:36:35] even if it’s a very small thing, there’s a much bigger chance that she’ll she’ll try and treat it. [00:36:40] But with the with the warning sign that, okay, we can both see this, but it’s very small. So is [00:36:45] that going to be a difficult patient. So you know obviously obviously we can’t see it. Stay [00:36:50] away. But you know what are the things I mean a lot of it tends to be psychological [00:36:55] right.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah I think for me it’s when. So I have my consult [00:37:00] I give them a letter. We speak through, explain everything, send them a letter x, y, z. [00:37:05] And then I’ll have like a review with them where they can ask me any questions if I feel we’re kind of going [00:37:10] through the same points again and again and again and again.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a good. [00:37:15]

Niki Keyhani: One. That’s a good one. And then they message and then they email, and then they call me again to go through the same points. [00:37:20] I just turn around and say, I don’t think you’re ready because you haven’t [00:37:25] settled.

Payman Langroudi: On.

Niki Keyhani: This in your mind. Um, so there’s no reason [00:37:30] why we should pick up a drill if you’re not prepared mentally, because that’s a big, big undertaking, you [00:37:35] know?

Payman Langroudi: So we’ll get onto mistakes, but let’s talk about it right now. Have you ever misjudged that one? And taken. Yes, [00:37:40] taken. You have. So so talk me through the pain of of of of a particular case [00:37:45] where you took something on. Yeah. The most painful.

Niki Keyhani: The most painful. Oh, [00:37:50] I have a juicy one. Okay. I actually have one from my DFT. Okay. [00:37:55]

Payman Langroudi: But you weren’t the specialist about.

Niki Keyhani: Oh, I’ve got clinical ones for.

Payman Langroudi: The.

Niki Keyhani: Specialist one. Yeah, I’ve got [00:38:00] a little bit of both for you. Don’t you.

Payman Langroudi: Worry. Okay. Let’s go. Let’s get into the darker part of the pod.

Niki Keyhani: Not [00:38:05] handling patient. Patient management. I would say when I was a foundation dentist, I [00:38:10] had a patient come in classic not been in in 20 years. Carries everywhere. [00:38:15] Perio everywhere. Um and at that time you were an FD. [00:38:20] So you’re giving them beautiful like £2,000 plans on [00:38:25] a band two NHS basis. As long as you can have the experience, you’re happy [00:38:30] to provide it. As long as your educational supervisor gives you the thumbs up, you’re happy to go ahead. Um, [00:38:35] and I’m doing all of this thinking I’m such a good person, you know, I’m [00:38:40] such a good person to be giving so much time to this. You know, one on one time, [00:38:45] I’m calling this person. I’m writing letters in my own free time and planning with the study [00:38:50] model, I feel great. And, um, the red flags [00:38:55] I missed is he. Which I didn’t miss, I heard, but I ignored is him telling [00:39:00] me his life story of how many people he’d been suing. And I think he had three lawsuits [00:39:05] as we were providing this dentistry. But also at the time, I didn’t know [00:39:10] that you could say no. You know, I didn’t know that. You could.

Payman Langroudi: Say, you don’t realise.

Niki Keyhani: I’m feeling [00:39:15] some red flags. I don’t think we should go ahead.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t realise that?

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. You just think, well, he’s not [00:39:20] done anything to me. There’s no reason why I should do anything. So we [00:39:25] go ahead with this plan, and, um, I provide a crown [00:39:30] prep. Oh, no. I’m doing a filling, an M.O.. Very, very simple case. Literally the last appointment [00:39:35] out of maybe 30 or 40. And, um, the [00:39:40] day after he calls and says he has now [00:39:45] got sepsis and he went to the hospital, and all of these complications [00:39:50] were in my head. I’m just thinking, how how does this even equate to that? [00:39:55] Um, and yeah, he he took the complaint the full way like [00:40:00] it was.

Payman Langroudi: But what had happened?

Niki Keyhani: Just, doing [00:40:05] a filling Grace’s gingiva or something like that. He bled. Nothing problematic. [00:40:10] Stopped bleeding like nothing that I could say clinically. I would have worried or be concerned about. [00:40:15] Mhm. Um, but yeah, it the place that it got taken [00:40:20] to was, you know in my opinion not a clinical thing. It was a scenario [00:40:25] thing. It was a patient management thing.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Niki Keyhani: It was about identifying what he was comfortable [00:40:30] with, what we should have provided and stopping before I got to that point really. Um, [00:40:35] so yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So he can.

Niki Keyhani: Live and you learn.

Payman Langroudi: He complained. What happened? [00:40:40]

Niki Keyhani: He complained. He sued. I think he got £900, £950.

Payman Langroudi: Was it one of those? The the [00:40:45] insurance company just wanted him to prove it.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. You can’t prove that you’ve done anything. But we can’t prove [00:40:50] that you haven’t. So we should settle it. And I was an FD. I was like.

Payman Langroudi: I must have left a [00:40:55] bad taste in your mouth.

Niki Keyhani: I was just shocked. I was like, is this what they’re talking about when they’re talking about defensive dentistry? Because [00:41:00] this is insane. What? What are we talking about? This is. This is crazy. [00:41:05] Um.

Payman Langroudi: Did it knock you back at all?

Niki Keyhani: Yes. [00:41:10] Yeah. In ways it it.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:41:15] early for that to happen.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, it is, but it’s. I’m glad it [00:41:20] happened then.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, it makes you stronger, right?

Niki Keyhani: It makes you stronger. And it teaches you off the bat to not [00:41:25] take the eye off the ball. Don’t you dare get overconfident because you need to keep [00:41:30] an eye on everything at all times. Um, and I did learn my first and only complaint, so. [00:41:35]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you haven’t had another one since.

Niki Keyhani: Touch the wood. Touch the wood right now. Um, [00:41:40] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, there’s going to be more. Yeah, there’s going to be more. There’s going to be 100%. [00:41:45]

Niki Keyhani: There’s going to be more. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, there’s.

Niki Keyhani: Going.

Payman Langroudi: To be, you know, it’s much more difficult [00:41:50] now than it was in my day insomuch as note taking.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I know [00:41:55] several of our customers here who have two nurses, you know, literally [00:42:00] the the practice runs better. We’re happy to pay that extra [00:42:05] nurse. Yeah, because you know the amount of money they make by paying that extra nurse the speed [00:42:10] of everything. Yeah. Um, but that is the notes. That’s the notes. Yeah. Because in my day, [00:42:15] it was like three lines. Yeah. You know.

Niki Keyhani: I wish that was still the case.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it makes [00:42:20] a big difference.

Niki Keyhani: Notes and admin is the worst part of my day.

Payman Langroudi: Well, the number of people who stay in an [00:42:25] hour or an hour and a half, two hours every day after the end of their last patient. [00:42:30]

Niki Keyhani: That’s me. I’m there two, three hours comfortably. Yes. Every day. Well, you have. [00:42:35]

Payman Langroudi: We used to finish the last patient. Leave. Walk out.

Niki Keyhani: Listen, there’s no way if I’ve seen a, you know, prostate [00:42:40] assessment. Yeah, I have to write notes. I have to write a letter. I have to write, you know, [00:42:45] instructions to my lab and communicate. And there’s so many. One day [00:42:50] of clinic for me is one day of admin for me, hands down. And I really wish [00:42:55] they said that in the disclaimer when I, you know, applied at the time of hey, yes, you’re [00:43:00] going for dentistry because it’s clinical. Great. By the way, there’s huge clinical governance [00:43:05] you need to think about. There’s huge admin that you need to think about. And you might get sued every other day. Keep [00:43:10] an eye on things at all times. There was no disclaimer. They didn’t write that on the Ucas application. Um, [00:43:15] you live and you learn.

Payman Langroudi: What about hero dog ticks? [00:43:20] Um, do you know what I mean by that? Yeah, yeah. Have you, have you, have you sometimes you must [00:43:25] have. Right. You must have had situations where there’s a certain tooth. Not 100% sure [00:43:30] if you can save it or not. You just you’ve just got like, your egos going a bit like you can you can [00:43:35] do something you couldn’t do before. Some deep margin innovation or something.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:43:40] and it hasn’t worked.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about one of those.

Niki Keyhani: Exactly [00:43:45] that. Exactly that. I looked at the case and I was like, this tooth is not restorable. [00:43:50] And it’s really, really simple case. No. The guy just looked at me and he went, please. And I went, [00:43:55] all right, nothing else. I was like, okay, you’ve you’ve convinced me. I’m sold. And [00:44:00] there I am doing like a post call. By the way, I think maybe one of the first posts I’d ever done as well. So [00:44:05] post call Crown and I turn around at the end and go, look, I give this like two months. This isn’t gonna [00:44:10] work. Um, and lo and behold, I think maybe two months, two months and [00:44:15] a week later, he comes back with the crown in his hand and, um. Yeah, again, live and [00:44:20] you learn. The good thing is, I chose it on the right patient. Yeah, yeah, I did something [00:44:25] clinically that wasn’t going to work, but I did it on a patient where I said, I don’t think this is going to work. He [00:44:30] was nice. We were on, you know, with an understanding, refunded his money and that’s it. You [00:44:35] know, that was the end of the story.

Payman Langroudi: But what I’m saying is it’s kind of the nature of being at a cutting [00:44:40] edge.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That you’re going to do push, push the boundaries a little.

Niki Keyhani: Bit and you need to push the [00:44:45] boundaries. That’s how.

Payman Langroudi: We learn.

Niki Keyhani: Yes, exactly. You need to push the boundaries. You need to experience. Otherwise [00:44:50] you’re not going to know what the limit is. Yeah. If you just keep working under the line.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:44:55]

Niki Keyhani: I mean, more than anything, that’s boring.

Payman Langroudi: Know that.

Niki Keyhani: Too. You’re gonna get bored. You’re going to be doing dentistry [00:45:00] for the rest of your life. Do you just want it to be doing the same thing every day?

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know, you’re absolutely right. [00:45:05] So where do you think your career is going to go next?

Niki Keyhani: Oh, this is the. Tell [00:45:10] me. Please tell me. So this is the bit that I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Now if you’ve done implants. No.

Niki Keyhani: So. [00:45:15] Oh, that’s actually where my, you know, the clinical mistake. Oh, you’ve [00:45:20] done an implant story, have you? It’s an implant story. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, go on, go on. Let’s do that.

Niki Keyhani: Are you sure?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, 100%.

Niki Keyhani: Um, [00:45:25] so this was during my implant, then you do [00:45:30] you. I did maybe, like, ten patients. Implant cases, some edentulous, some not. And, [00:45:35] um, it’s one of my first few and kind of way of background. I didn’t do DCT. [00:45:40] I don’t have a surgical background, so this is out of my comfort zone for sure. Um, [00:45:45] and my McAlinden was amazing. [00:45:50] Absolutely amazing. But all the tutors are these incredible. [00:45:55] Incredibly talented clinicians, all male and [00:46:00] my fellow students as well. It was me and five guys, so it was a very [00:46:05] male orientated kind of environment. And quite [00:46:10] often it was a very much like a no weakness kind of zone. You [00:46:15] don’t want to show any weakness. So I’m going there for one of my first few implant cases with [00:46:20] no surgical, and I’m like, no weakness. I’ve got this. I know what I’m doing, [00:46:25] I have no clue. And maybe I’ve like looked it up, but I don’t know anything. And, um, [00:46:30] my for some reason, my tutor has too much faith in me and he’s [00:46:35] like, yeah, do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Next step. Go on.

Niki Keyhani: You’ve got it. You go go go go. And at this point I’ve [00:46:40] got through like I’ve elevated the flap. I’ve elevated the flap, I’ve done the [00:46:45] entire drill sequence. Implant is in fixtures. Looking good. Last step. If anyone’s [00:46:50] done implants, they know I was putting the cover screw at this point, so I was 99% [00:46:55] all the way through. It gets better. So, um, the patient is, [00:47:00] by the way, sedated. Okay. And I’m, like, screwing this cover. Screw in [00:47:05] as soon as I, like, breathe a sigh of relief that I’m. [00:47:10] I’ve made it like I fooled this guy to thinking I know what I’m doing. Um. [00:47:15] I seem to not be able to see it anymore. And obviously straight [00:47:20] up panic where I’m like, they’ve inhaled it, you know, they’re they’re under [00:47:25] sedation. They don’t have the gag reflex. They’ve inhaled it. We need to order a chest x ray. Um, [00:47:30] and he can tell that I’m a little bit stressed out. And he says to me, Nikki, what’s going on? And I went, [00:47:35] no, no, no, I’m fine. I’m just like, wait, I.

Payman Langroudi: Need patient or the supervisor.

Niki Keyhani: Supervisor. [00:47:40] I’m like, wait, like I’m looking. And he was like, what’s going on? What’s going on? And I went, I’ve lost the screw. Like [00:47:45] the screw is down. He comes and takes a look. He’s searching [00:47:50] a little bit. And then he looks at me and he’s like ordered the chest x ray as I’m ordering the chest x ray, he [00:47:55] turns around and he goes, Nicky, do you know what you’ve done? And I went, yeah, I know what I’ve done. Like, I’ve dropped the cover screw [00:48:00] down her throat. And he went, no, no, you’ve pushed the implant into the sinus.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. [00:48:05] So it was still there. It was still there. You just couldn’t see it because it was submerged. [00:48:10]

Niki Keyhani: Gone straight up and. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Niki Keyhani: And the [00:48:15] most clinically like wasn’t prepared [00:48:20] for moment. Became the best learning moment I’ve ever had [00:48:25] in dentistry ever. Because now I’m watching this incredible, incredible clinician [00:48:30] like admire him so much. Whip it out. If here we go. Sinus lift. And I’m like [00:48:35] what is happening? Like straight away retrieving this implant. Um [00:48:40] and I’m just sitting there suctioning impressed with everything kind of obviously [00:48:45] wishing I hadn’t done it, but at the same time grateful that this is what I get to see as a result.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:48:50] what have you done wrong?

Niki Keyhani: I had.

Payman Langroudi: Too far.

Niki Keyhani: Drilled [00:48:55] too far and pushed it too much. Fractured fracture. The bone fracture the bone so that it [00:49:00] had gone straight through the fixture was too close.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t you guys like planet?

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. We do. Yeah. Prosthodontic [00:49:05] driven implant planning. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have you [00:49:10] been to teen you just because you’ve never done it before, right, I.

Niki Keyhani: Think, yeah, I’ve never done it before. And [00:49:15] like, I’m going based off my stent, off my plan. But, you know, mistakes get made. Maybe I’m a millimetre [00:49:20] too mesial.

Payman Langroudi: Are you were flying with it again or not?

Niki Keyhani: Am I fine with it again?

Payman Langroudi: Are you [00:49:25] fine with it? Like so. Were you cool?

Niki Keyhani: I loved that one [00:49:30] because. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Affect you in any way?

Niki Keyhani: No, that one didn’t because clinically it was managed [00:49:35] like I knew the patient was okay. So my heart was calm and also the patient was lovely. [00:49:40] I explained it to her, you know, later she was totally fine with it. So that one fine. [00:49:45] You know, if anything, it was just a learning experience. It was a complication, but one that taught [00:49:50] me so much. It was a positive thing. Um, but yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have you ever been in a situation where [00:49:55] you you’ve sort of lost confidence, doubted yourself like. [00:50:00]

Niki Keyhani: Every other day.

Payman Langroudi: Felt sad, felt sad, felt sad, and couldn’t [00:50:05] get over the sadness of some mistake that was made. And because the reason I’m asking this is because [00:50:10] it’s very common. And by the way, sometimes it’s common for like for mistakes [00:50:15] that you wouldn’t even worry about, but depends on the person. Yeah. Um, some people invest [00:50:20] too much into their identity as a top [00:50:25] clinician. Yeah. And then so when something goes wrong in the clinical area.

Niki Keyhani: We beat ourselves. [00:50:30]

Payman Langroudi: Up. They really beat themselves up. Yeah I’m sure you’re very rounded person or whatever. So [00:50:35] you’ve got other things in your life apart from being a dentist. But have you ever been in that situation? What [00:50:40] I think I would say is a patient who’s maybe for me happened once complained that [00:50:45] I’d been careless, where at the time I was trying to be Triply careful. [00:50:50] And just that disconnect between what I thought I was projecting and the patient saying that [00:50:55] disconnect really affect you. I didn’t like it at all. I still think about it sometimes. Now, have you had that sort [00:51:00] of situation?

Niki Keyhani: Um, so honestly, I would say I feel that more as a [00:51:05] business owner.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really?

Niki Keyhani: Than I do as a clinician. Um, [00:51:10] because I do feel a insane [00:51:15] amount of weight of being a practice on staff. [00:51:20] Yeah. I remember being like 20 straight when I opened the practice. I was 25, and then [00:51:25] maybe around 26, I had a feeling of, oh my God, am I? Am I never going to have a day off ever [00:51:30] again? Because how can I? I’m responsible for other people. How can I ever grant [00:51:35] myself a day to myself when I should be at all times [00:51:40] working to improve and working to better because I’m responsible? Um, [00:51:45] so definitely as a business owner, I’m constantly questioning myself, especially [00:51:50] because I feel like I’ve. I still feel like I’ve constantly got something to prove.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:51:55]

Niki Keyhani: Whenever you. Whenever I meet someone and they hear I’m [00:52:00] a business owner or I have a practice, the first question is by yourself. You [00:52:05] second question is. Oh, did you just did you just set it up? Oh, did you buy it? [00:52:10] Oh, you did a squat. The amount of disbelief and amount of, you [00:52:15] know, kind of looking at you with wanting to poke holes in the story that you have. [00:52:20]

Payman Langroudi: I feel like your radar.

Payman Langroudi: For this is a bit oversensitive.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe for good reason, right. [00:52:25] Maybe. Maybe you’ve had maybe. Maybe someone’s walked into your clinic and said, are you the nurse? Or, you know, these classic stories [00:52:30] you hear about? Yeah. Young ladies. Right?

Niki Keyhani: I hope it is that. I hope it is that I’m too sensitive. [00:52:35]

Payman Langroudi: I think so, man, because you’ve brought it up a couple of times now. But. But I’m interested in this idea of you [00:52:40] like to prove people wrong when they assume. Assume something about. [00:52:45]

Niki Keyhani: You.

Payman Langroudi: Like, I can feel it.

Niki Keyhani: I mean, I don’t feel like that’s why I do it. I can feel it. But it gives a good [00:52:50] juice. I mean, it’s not the reason I work as hard as I work.

Payman Langroudi: But if [00:52:55] I said to you. Listen, man, I don’t think you’ll ever get three practices.

Niki Keyhani: Oh, yeah. No, there’s something [00:53:00] in me which is like, just.

Payman Langroudi: Watch me to that.

Niki Keyhani: Just sit down and watch me. You put it in my head now. Yeah, there’s [00:53:05] definitely that in me. There is definitely that in me. Not of I want to prove everyone wrong.

Payman Langroudi: It’s more a [00:53:10] question of under. You don’t want to be underestimated, man. Yeah. Do [00:53:15] you remember? Like why? Like what? Where’s this coming from? Like, was it. Was it like a woman where you were underestimated [00:53:20] and.

Niki Keyhani: Oh, I mean, I feel like there’s a lot of times I’ve been underestimated. There’s [00:53:25] a lot of times where it’s very easy. Like, as soon as you meet anyone, everyone’s like this. Whenever [00:53:30] we meet someone, we put them in the box, right? You are this kind of person. You are this kind of person. So [00:53:35] it’s very easy for someone to meet me and put me in a box of, [00:53:40] oh, she’s she’s the academic or. Oh, she’s, I don’t know, whatever they think, but I’m sure there’s a box that [00:53:45] they put me in. So. And I want to be able to define my box. No one can tell me [00:53:50] what my box is, and no one can tell me which. They often do. Oh, but are you a business owner or are you a clinician? [00:53:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I know, but look, I’ve got I’ve got one of my most important members [00:54:00] of staff here. She’s she’s got a very strong radar for people who think they’re posher [00:54:05] than me. Okay. Yeah, something like that. Yeah. So that her radar is very [00:54:10] tuned in to this thing. Yeah. Okay. That’s something. Yeah, [00:54:15] but you’re very tuned into this other thing about people dictating [00:54:20] who they think you are and what you should do next, and how you’re. So. Why that’s that’s my point. Why? [00:54:25] Why this?

Niki Keyhani: I think just because I’ve come across it.

Payman Langroudi: Really.

Niki Keyhani: I’ve come across it. Yeah. There’s it’s [00:54:30] pretty frequent where someone will go. Oh I thought you were this way or I thought you were this [00:54:35] or I remember even applying to uni and one of my [00:54:40] teachers was like, you’re not going to get in. There’s no way because crap.

Payman Langroudi: Teacher. [00:54:45]

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, really?

Payman Langroudi: That’s the difference between that teacher and the other one.

Niki Keyhani: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Be a specialist.

Niki Keyhani: Exactly. [00:54:50] He was like, you’re not going to be what he was like. You need to have something to get in and you just don’t have [00:54:55] it. And I was like, well, what’s what is it?

Payman Langroudi: And he was like.

Niki Keyhani: You don’t have.

[BOTH]: It.

Niki Keyhani: And [00:55:00] I was like.

Payman Langroudi: What a nutter. Yeah. Could have teachers that.

Niki Keyhani: That was the fire that straight away I [00:55:05] was like, I’m getting it. I’m not gonna I don’t know what it is. I will Google.

Payman Langroudi: It. Unless he was [00:55:10] playing, unless he was playing 3D chess. And he was like, this is what he’s going. This is.

Niki Keyhani: What he was.

Payman Langroudi: Doing. This is what it’s going [00:55:15] to take to get her to want to do it.

Niki Keyhani: That. But I think also when you say that it’s a win win situation for them, isn’t [00:55:20] it? Because then I’m either going to get in and he’s going to equate it to himself or I’m not going to get in and he’s going [00:55:25] to say, well, I was right. So he made his own job easy. Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: I used [00:55:30] to live with this guy who was a medic, and me and him didn’t used to study at all. Yeah, [00:55:35] the other two dentists, they used to study.

Niki Keyhani: You’ve told me.

Payman Langroudi: This, but me and him did not used [00:55:40] to study. And then I qualified. And then he said, yeah, I [00:55:45] want to be a surgeon. And I said, but. You [00:55:50] know, if I were you, I’d just stick to GP. Yeah. Because I don’t think you’re the, you know, that [00:55:55] that dude went on to become like one of the top surgeons in the country. There you go. And [00:56:00] he he actually tells me he attributes it to that moment when I said, buddy.

[BOTH]: See?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:56:05]

[BOTH]: Look what you created.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but I wasn’t playing 4D chess. I really didn’t think it was up to it because [00:56:10] I saw what a lazy dude he was over the three years I lived with him for you.

[BOTH]: You instilled.

Niki Keyhani: That [00:56:15] fire in.

Payman Langroudi: Him by mistake. By mistake?

[BOTH]: Yeah, but.

Niki Keyhani: These moments are mistakes, you know? They’re moments where someone [00:56:20] suddenly just says something to you. But it sticks. It sticks, and you just think, wait [00:56:25] a minute. I can do this. I’ve got it. And, um. Yeah, I mean, [00:56:30] my that’s I think again, what my 20s were. It’s that I was in this [00:56:35] kind of in between where I felt like loads of people thought I couldn’t do it. And then people who knew me were [00:56:40] batting so hard. They were so supportive, so loving. So like, yeah, [00:56:45] you can do it. I believe in you. I see it in you. And then my 20s were for me [00:56:50] of proving that to myself.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think it’s harder being a woman than a man.

Niki Keyhani: In [00:56:55] life or in dentistry? Life is a hard one to answer because [00:57:00] I think we have different difficulties. Yeah. Um, we have different challenges in dentistry. [00:57:05] There’s definitely, definitely some challenges that women go through. Yeah, definitely. [00:57:10]

Payman Langroudi: I would have thought it’d be the other way around. You know.

Niki Keyhani: Why?

Payman Langroudi: Because dentistry, [00:57:15] at the end of the day, you’re the dentist. You can, you know, you’re dentist. There’s no there’s no problem there. There’s no [00:57:20] there’s no like I can’t imagine someone saying, I don’t want this woman to do my teeth. I want a man [00:57:25] to do my I can’t.

Niki Keyhani: I can’t imagine it. But you’ve definitely heard it, right? No, you haven’t heard that? [00:57:30] No, I’ve heard that.

Payman Langroudi: Did someone say, I don’t want a woman to fly my plane, [00:57:35] or I don’t want a woman to, like, I just can’t see it. This is.

Niki Keyhani: So. This is. I love when people do [00:57:40] this because quite often we’ll say, hey, we’ve had these uncomfortable [00:57:45] moments as females in dentistry or women in dentistry. And the straight away answer is, [00:57:50] well, I’ve not seen that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. But you’re not going to see it unless you’re [00:57:55] living it, right? Unless you’re experiencing it. Unless you’re the recipient of that person saying, [00:58:00] which I’ve had many times.

Payman Langroudi: Many times.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, many times I’ve had, for example, I [00:58:05] remember in uni someone said to me, why is there more female students than male? And I went, well, [00:58:10] because whether we’re female or male doesn’t determine whether we get into university. It’s based on our, [00:58:15] I don’t know, grades or interview whatever else. And he went, well, I don’t really feel comfortable [00:58:20] with a woman treating me. And I went, well then don’t get treated by a woman [00:58:25] like.

Payman Langroudi: That can happen to men, too.

Niki Keyhani: It can happen to men. But [00:58:30] quite often when it’s happening to men, it’s not because they doubt your skills as a clinician, [00:58:35] it’s because maybe they don’t feel comfortable around men you [00:58:40] like, for example.

Payman Langroudi: How do you know it was your skill that he was doubting?

Niki Keyhani: Because he said it. He [00:58:45] said, I don’t think women can do the job as well.

Payman Langroudi: No way. [00:58:50]

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. And I said.

Payman Langroudi: Why do you 82.

Niki Keyhani: He will. I mean, I didn’t ask his age, but [00:58:55] maybe 60 or 70. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’m surprised that that in this [00:59:00] day and age I am surprised at that.

Niki Keyhani: To be honest, that was the biggest surprise I had. I mean, my mum was [00:59:05] my role model when I was doing both my essays were female. So I was very much [00:59:10] like, women can do everything. So this idea when.

Payman Langroudi: People say.

Niki Keyhani: Women can’t do everything, women [00:59:15] have to sacrifice.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think it’s easier?

Niki Keyhani: Never heard it before.

Payman Langroudi: It’s easier for women in some sense.

Niki Keyhani: In [00:59:20] what sense?

Payman Langroudi: Like I’d say, it’s easier for a woman to sell cosmetics than for a man.

Niki Keyhani: Oh. [00:59:25] Good question.

Payman Langroudi: For the sake of the argument.

Niki Keyhani: What facial aesthetics or.

Payman Langroudi: Dental [00:59:30] aesthetics? You know that that traditional role of what [00:59:35] about, uh, pretty privilege like that.

Niki Keyhani: That pretty privilege exists.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Niki Keyhani: I stand [00:59:40] by that. Yeah, but men have pretty privilege, too. No, no, no they do. There’s [00:59:45] good looking guys.

Payman Langroudi: I know, but it’s not as privileged as much, you know, like.

Niki Keyhani: You’re telling me there’s [00:59:50] not, like, those typical aesthetic doctors where, like, they’ve got the muscle and they put [00:59:55] that online and women are.

Payman Langroudi: Like, no, it exists.

Niki Keyhani: Female patients come for that reason.

Payman Langroudi: It exists. I [01:00:00] remember, I remember I used to I used to say to like these 50 year old lots of funny. I’m 52. I said, [01:00:05] these 50 year old women when I was your age, I used to solve adheres to these women. Yeah, I knew, I knew [01:00:10] what to say. Like it wasn’t even what.

Niki Keyhani: Tell me what you said. Tell me the spiel.

Payman Langroudi: It wasn’t what I was saying. It was just [01:00:15] like the way.

Niki Keyhani: The way you were saying it.

Payman Langroudi: I was finishing sentences and things, and. And it was working [01:00:20] in sales terms, and I was. I was a young kid. Didn’t know what the hell I was doing.

Niki Keyhani: See, now you’re telling everyone your secret. If you want to sell veneers, [01:00:25] you’ve got to not finish your sentences. That’s basically what you just said.

Payman Langroudi: It wasn’t. It wasn’t as. [01:00:30]

Niki Keyhani: You could have veneers or you could.

Payman Langroudi: I’d say I’d say I’d say something about how, you know, beautiful, beautiful face. [01:00:35] It’s really nice. Oh, okay. And I wouldn’t finish. Okay. When it came to the teeth. Yeah. Something [01:00:40] like that. Something like that.

Niki Keyhani: Nice face. Shame about the, [01:00:45] uh. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Wouldn’t finish.

Niki Keyhani: Okay. Like it?

Payman Langroudi: Maybe. Incorrect, but I was [01:00:50] doing a lot of cosmetic work at that point, and veneers were like. It was amazing. You could, you could, you could prep [01:00:55] for three hours and build, like, I don’t know what it was. I can’t remember. Yeah. Massive. Bigger number [01:01:00] than I’d ever seen before. And then the fit was like two hours. And it was it was just a wonderful thing. And [01:01:05] it was quick and it worked like it looked pretty and. And people loved the way they looked. Yeah. [01:01:10] People were happy, but it was before Invisalign existed.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There was no other choice. Yeah. Like, if you want to [01:01:15] look pretty, this is what you call it? Yeah. It’s actually one of the reasons I got bleaching when bleaching finally worked. [01:01:20] Because bleaching wasn’t really working very well. I remember in the early days that was way before your time. Like [01:01:25] in the 90s in bleaching. Yeah. No one understood about the tray.

Niki Keyhani: But I liked [01:01:30] this story. You told me this story last time I saw you. And you were telling me about why you’re going to whining? Yeah, I loved [01:01:35] that story. It was so much more to it than I thought it was about [01:01:40] how you kind of thought, we need to go to an area of dentistry that people don’t really do very much, and people [01:01:45] need to be able to do it differently. And you kind of honed in on just one thing.

Payman Langroudi: I think it was one patient. It was [01:01:50] one patient. I did a treatment that’s insane. It was just so the reaction from the patient [01:01:55] and the fact I hadn’t drilled it was just a magical moment. Yeah, yeah, it was a magical. [01:02:00] But like I say, it didn’t always used to work in those days. Yeah. So there was this one patient where it did work, and [01:02:05] it was just like it was such a magical moment. That’s why I did it. It got me going. [01:02:10]

Niki Keyhani: In inception due.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. So now you’re saying [01:02:15] going forward, we bumped into some errors? Yeah. Do [01:02:20] you want to do more surgical implants work.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is that is that the cat you want to be?

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. [01:02:25] I think well, it’s not the only thing I want to do, but it’s definitely a part of what I want to do. Um. [01:02:30] Yeah. Made mistakes. Yeah. Learn from them. Yeah, I need to learn some more. [01:02:35]

Payman Langroudi: Have you always been calm with flaps and blood or no surgery?

Niki Keyhani: Listen, [01:02:40] the only thing I knew after PhD is I don’t want to go into the hospital. Oh, I [01:02:45] was like, no way am I doing DCT. Like, I love, I loved practice, I loved [01:02:50] seeing patients totally different. It’s totally different. And even then when I was seeing like 30, 40 [01:02:55] patients loved it. Like, let’s keep going. It’s like this adrenaline rush where I was just loving [01:03:00] it. Um, so naturally, what I did is I went into the hospital and I did three days a week with the Clinton. [01:03:05] You know, the thing that I said I wasn’t going to do, I did. Um, but [01:03:10] definitely the right decision. Definitely something that I still want to learn more about. [01:03:15] I still want to do. And just because I made a couple of mistakes doesn’t mean I’m going to shy away.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but implants, [01:03:20] to me, it feels like it’s an all or nothing game. Like you really need to jump fully into it.

Niki Keyhani: It is. I think [01:03:25] that’s the difficulty is that, you know, when you’re learning about it, you get an intro, which is great. But [01:03:30] then there’s this whole titanic iceberg under [01:03:35] the surface of how much more you need to learn. Yeah. So it’s it’s a whole, you know, degree within [01:03:40] itself. Um, but just.

Payman Langroudi: You’re up for.

Niki Keyhani: It. I’m up for it.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:03:45] have you. You’ve done all on six. Whatever. All on four.

Niki Keyhani: In the hospital environment? [01:03:50] Yes. Yeah, in the hospital.

Payman Langroudi: So is that maybe that’s the next challenge.

Niki Keyhani: Like safe dentistry. You know, [01:03:55] when you’re in the hospital with.

Payman Langroudi: Like, this massive demand in Horsham [01:04:00] for that sort of thing, right?

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. So I restore, I restore comfortably. Um, but yeah, [01:04:05] my next, my next journey would be placing them myself, which I think is the point, [01:04:10] you know, when I’m restoring, I’m kind of that’s what’s making me go, why am I restoring? But I’m not placing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:04:15]

Niki Keyhani: Just doesn’t make much sense. So I’m like, it’s time to go into the next, next chapter.

Payman Langroudi: What would you say? [01:04:20] You’re bad at.

Niki Keyhani: Endo.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:04:25]

Niki Keyhani: Listen, if you if you.

Payman Langroudi: It perforated [01:04:30] once and never touched it again, like one of those.

Niki Keyhani: I did maybe Endo and DFT and then [01:04:35] never again.

Payman Langroudi: It’s on a on a on a processor.

Niki Keyhani: Make me do endo.

Payman Langroudi: They [01:04:40] don’t even go there at all.

Niki Keyhani: No, make me do endo. No, no.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:04:45] different. Different speciality.

Niki Keyhani: It’s a complete, different world. Like if someone was in pain.

Payman Langroudi: Endo. That’s [01:04:50] it.

Niki Keyhani: No.

Payman Langroudi: What else?

Niki Keyhani: No no no. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Children. Children? [01:04:55]

Niki Keyhani: Um, I like children. I don’t like treating children. Um. [01:05:00] Invisalign. Ortho. Oh, really? Yeah. Just never got into it. Not my niche. [01:05:05] And then this is the problem with dentistry, right? You know, when people say, I’ve been on holiday, I’m coming back. [01:05:10] I think I’ve forgot everything. Yeah, it’s like I’ve. I’ve forgotten everything. Not pros for the [01:05:15] last like seven years. I cannot do endo. I cannot do well. I mean, [01:05:20] I can do simple ortho, but I wouldn’t advise anyone to come to me for ortho Invisalign. I will always [01:05:25] give it to someone else.

Payman Langroudi: They find a process a bit unfair because every dentist [01:05:30] thinks they can do pros.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But you know what I mean. If you don’t, you’re going to get loads of referrals. [01:05:35] Yeah. Whereas with pros it’s almost like when things go wrong people come to you. [01:05:40]

Niki Keyhani: But that’s it. Those are the cases I get I get it.

Payman Langroudi: When you’re getting the hardest cases.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, absolutely. [01:05:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Niki Keyhani: Um, yeah, it is.

Payman Langroudi: But I think [01:05:50] the challenge of increasing your referral from 10% to, well, [01:05:55] whatever it is.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, this is this is part of the three stage plan. Number one, get on [01:06:00] to the GDC register. Number two, advertise myself as a specialist being able [01:06:05] to finally use that moniker. Um, so yeah, that’s kind of what’s [01:06:10] paused me up until now.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So now when we’re looking at this other side, right, the soft side, [01:06:15] the business side. Yeah. And you know what you said about, you know, it kind of keeps you up at night that [01:06:20] you’re responsible for these staff members and all of that. Do you look at business, [01:06:25] developing the business side in a similar way to you, look at developing the Dental side. Or do you [01:06:30] not, because a lot of dentists don’t. A lot of dentists think of, okay, I’ve got to do this, I’m going to do that, get a mentor [01:06:35] in dent in clinical. But on the business side, just muddle through. And I’ve done it [01:06:40] myself. I’ve done it myself. And and recently I got a kind of a mentor and I’m happy. I’m happy [01:06:45] I did. Yeah. Have you thought about learning?

Niki Keyhani: Thought about it? I have thought about it. Um, [01:06:50] I do always think about developing my business. That’s like a given every day. I’m like, what can I do [01:06:55] next? What is the next stage? Um. Or is it time to expand? Is it time to do this 100%? [01:07:00] Have I thought about getting a mentor? Honestly, I have, I’ve dabbled with [01:07:05] it. Um, one of the things actually, I went to recently, [01:07:10] you know, um, Rana, she does courses on, like, coaching and mentoring.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Niki Keyhani: And [01:07:15] I went on one of her courses like Day Course. I didn’t realise how much [01:07:20] I needed that course until I went on it. Um, because she was, it was even things that [01:07:25] I do. But she was explaining to me why I’m doing it and what the name of it is and why I should be [01:07:30] doing it that way or this way. Like what? So, I mean, I don’t want to give away her course for free here, but [01:07:35] one of the main things she talks about, which I loved, is the difference between high achievers [01:07:40] and optimal achievers. High achieving is when you are going a [01:07:45] 100mph but you are burning your candle, you’re going to get tired by [01:07:50] the end. Optimal achiever is when you’re going 100mph, but [01:07:55] the things that you’re doing are replenishing yourself is giving you energy to keep going. [01:08:00] So you will. If you’re working as an optimal achiever, you’re always going to be working at that high level. You’re [01:08:05] not going to dip. Loved it. I was like, that explains that four years of [01:08:10] running the practice because I was dying, but [01:08:15] enjoying my death, you know, I was like stressed [01:08:20] and exhausted by the time I got back, but so happy. So so, so [01:08:25] happy, so grateful. Um, and yeah, it [01:08:30] kind of put words, it put labels onto the things that I was doing and made me understand [01:08:35] what I was doing and how I was doing it so that I knew how to keep doing it. Um, [01:08:40] yeah. Those kind of things made me realise, hey, maybe, uh, [01:08:45] maybe I could do with a little bit of mentorship. Maybe I could do with a little bit of support or someone showing me a different [01:08:50] way of doing things. Um, so yeah, it’s been things I’ve been dabbling with.

Payman Langroudi: I think, you know, being [01:08:55] a lone founder, the owner of the business on your own is actually [01:09:00] asking a lot of one person, you know.

Niki Keyhani: Mom is guidance.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, right.

Niki Keyhani: Mom is guidance. Like, if there’s obviously [01:09:05] a problem, mom, like, she’s a phone call away. She’s a text away. What [01:09:10] should I do? What do you think? What is the right answer? And, um.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think do you think there’s sort [01:09:15] of the child of a dentist privilege? Yeah. There is a real thing.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, it is, it is, it is. [01:09:20] Yeah. Who who would ever say it’s not.

Payman Langroudi: Some people don’t. Some people think it’s not.

Niki Keyhani: We need to be real. [01:09:25] Absolutely it is. They give you insight. They give you support. They give more than anything. More than anything. [01:09:30] She’s given me understanding. She gets it, you know, in a different way. So [01:09:35] when I’m going through something like, for example, when a patient’s being a bit difficult straight away [01:09:40] mum, there’s this patient, this happened and sometimes I know [01:09:45] what I’m going to do, but I need to say it to someone who I trust wholeheartedly, who [01:09:50] understands what I’m saying.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know what I would do if I were you?

Niki Keyhani: Tell me. I love advice. Tell me. [01:09:55]

Payman Langroudi: Look, clinically, you seem very confident. Yeah, and I know, I know.

Niki Keyhani: I like that. That’s the impression I gave you. [01:10:00]

Payman Langroudi: Do you do? And I know it’s an unfinished symphony. It always is.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Basil Mizrahi [01:10:05] is learning every day.

Niki Keyhani: I’m sure the best courses I’ve been on.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah. Hundred percent. But [01:10:10] clinical. You do seem very accomplished and confident. Yeah. I think what you should do now [01:10:15] is you should, like, make an amazing, patient journey sort of thing. Amazing [01:10:20] one. Yeah. And then the your dad side. Yeah. With, [01:10:25] you know like with the design and and all that you should listen to. You should [01:10:30] listen to the podcast I did with the small story. Zach. Cara, have you heard of that one. Like the patient [01:10:35] journey is this unbelievable thing. But but their screens at every point. So so [01:10:40] by the time the patients in the chair they’re fully, fully confident about this patient. Yeah. [01:10:45] So what I’m saying is you’re such a high achiever that it makes sense to make something [01:10:50] like that. The next step. So if I fast forwarded, where do you think life will be. Forget dentistry. Do you think you’ll [01:10:55] be like married or kids in five years?

Niki Keyhani: Oh, I hope [01:11:00] so. I mean, it depends. If I meet the right person, I don’t want if I meet the right person, but I don’t want to put pressure [01:11:05] on myself on it either. Yeah, it’ll come when it comes.

Payman Langroudi: Because. Because the funny thing is, that’s only five summers [01:11:10] left, you know, like.

Niki Keyhani: Are you doing the very typical thing of Nikki that you’re running [01:11:15] out of time, like 25 summers?

Payman Langroudi: Like, if I was a girl, I’d be really worried about that. You know? It’s only five. Five. Yeah. [01:11:20]

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, yeah. Why? Because I feel like women are. The women don’t need to worry about that. [01:11:25] Like there’s options. It’s just about finding the one that you click with. Why would we worry about [01:11:30] it?

Payman Langroudi: No, no, no. Let’s say everything goes well. Yeah. Let’s say you meet a guy and you have a child. [01:11:35] Yeah. Within five years. Yeah. There’s only five summers left of you being you. Yeah. [01:11:40] And the child.

Niki Keyhani: This is one of.

Payman Langroudi: My child in the mix.

Niki Keyhani: Right.

Payman Langroudi: So there’s no I in, baby.

Niki Keyhani: There [01:11:45] is in babies. There is [01:11:50] in babies.

Payman Langroudi: Anyway, for a few years for sure. Yeah, yeah, for a few years I went I went to [01:11:55] Goa on.

Niki Keyhani: A.

Payman Langroudi: On a two week stag do. Nice. When my children were [01:12:00] three and one.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So my wife could have done that. No way, no way. Impossible. Impossible. [01:12:05] It doesn’t matter how many nannies or.

Niki Keyhani: Whatever, like sacrifices that you’re just happy to [01:12:10] give.

Payman Langroudi: I know, I know, I.

Niki Keyhani: Know, that’s not a sacrifice I worry about.

Payman Langroudi: I know, I know, but there is. You should. Because I’m saying there’s only five summers [01:12:15] left if everything goes perfectly. Yeah. So? So the reason I like to count it in some ways it [01:12:20] makes it more more tangible.

Niki Keyhani: It makes it more timely. I mean, yeah, but then I’ve [01:12:25] also.

Payman Langroudi: Had on you. Anyway, look.

Niki Keyhani: I’ve had 31 summers where I’ve had a great one.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me it doesn’t weigh on you [01:12:30] at all. That’s really super interesting in itself.

Niki Keyhani: I don’t think it weighs on me in terms of timeline, in [01:12:35] terms of.

Payman Langroudi: Me.

Niki Keyhani: Man. But the other thing, the other thing weighs on me more. Yeah. [01:12:40] Choosing the wrong person. Yeah, that weighs on me. Listen, I have seen, not experienced, [01:12:45] but seen some train wrecks, which makes me [01:12:50] like. Look, I’m happy to wait if it means not going through that scenario as long [01:12:55] as it’s right. At the end of the day, you need someone who you can trust and who you can build a family with. You’re not going to compromise [01:13:00] that. You’re not going to settle or settle.

Payman Langroudi: I sat my son down and I and I said, all right, he [01:13:05] was trying to get to Cambridge and this, that and the other, I don’t know, all of this stuff is all well and good, but [01:13:10] honestly, the most important decision you’re going to make is who?

Niki Keyhani: No one said that to me. [01:13:15]

Payman Langroudi: It’s so important.

Niki Keyhani: No one said that to me. My parents were like, yeah, you know, live your life, enjoy [01:13:20] yourself. You know, work hard. No one said, by the way, none [01:13:25] of this matters. The most important thing is who you meet. No one told me that up until now. And [01:13:30] then suddenly it’s like the.

Payman Langroudi: The.

Niki Keyhani: Script has changed.

Payman Langroudi: Doesn’t it?

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, I guess, I mean, I am [01:13:35] thankful that I don’t have pressure at home for sure, for sure, but it makes there’s still a lot to do in [01:13:40] the next five years. You know, there’s still plans. I know there’s still plans, even not personal [01:13:45] life wise. I mean, obviously the course finished, but I was like I felt [01:13:50] a feeling of I really focussed on my career. It’s time to focus on me. I started Spanish [01:13:55] lessons. I’ve started tennis. When I say I, there is no better highlight of my [01:14:00] week than my Spanish and my tennis lessons. I’m enjoying it so much because I’m just having [01:14:05] time to do the things that I’ve loved and not had time to do, or things like property [01:14:10] investment or, you know, other areas of your life to kind of pad it out. [01:14:15] Yeah, there’s definitely Dental dreams. There’s things that I’m planning to do, but it [01:14:20] shouldn’t just be one, one category or one department.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get [01:14:25] into the sort of quickfire part of this.

Niki Keyhani: I feel like so far it’s been quick. This wasn’t [01:14:30] quickfire. You know, when they tell you to come on this podcast, they’re like, yeah, it’s a really [01:14:35] chilled conversation. What do you mean, chilled conversation? It’s like, do you feel like your time is [01:14:40] running out? Do you feel like where was the chilled part in this conversation? [01:14:45]

Payman Langroudi: I’m just like, I would feel like my time is running out if I was [01:14:50] a girl.

Niki Keyhani: Okay, let me let me summarise. I don’t feel like my time’s running out. I love being a woman. Yes, there are [01:14:55] challenges, but it’s a pleasure to be a woman and to face the things we’re [01:15:00] facing. And I would say one thing I haven’t said is I have a niece. [01:15:05] Everything I do would be for her. Everything I would do, any [01:15:10] difficulty I face before it was frustrating. Now I’m grateful because if it [01:15:15] changes one person’s perception of what a woman should be or what a woman can do if it changes [01:15:20] her life, even the slightest amount, give it to me. Don’t give it to her.

Payman Langroudi: Love, though.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Love [01:15:25] though. Beautiful. So quick. Fire.

Niki Keyhani: Tell me.

Payman Langroudi: Favourite [01:15:30] lecture you’ve ever been to?

Niki Keyhani: Like what I’m going to say. The one that I’m sure everyone [01:15:35] else is like. Oh my God, Finlay Sutton really loved it.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Niki Keyhani: Dentures were [01:15:40] made interesting and sexy. Who knew? Yeah. Loved it. Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Favourite book? [01:15:45]

Niki Keyhani: Dental book. Yeah. Okay, so this book is not a book [01:15:50] that anyone can buy. Let me add that I obviously did the diploma. I did the London [01:15:55] and I was like, wow, there is no prosthodontic book which has everything, prosthodontics in it. And I mean like [01:16:00] fixed removable aesthetics occlusion. So I made one. I like wrote [01:16:05] my own notes. It’s probably about a thousand pages at this point. And I’ve always told myself, [01:16:10] yeah, one day I’ll, you know, sell it or give it out for free, I I don’t care. But that [01:16:15] is probably my resource. Anytime I’ve forgotten something, quickly open up my Dental [01:16:20] book of my own. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re crazy, note taker. [01:16:25]

Niki Keyhani: I like it like textbook style. Like there needs to be every detail [01:16:30] for sure. Yeah. Type A.

Payman Langroudi: So you should put that book out. Why not?

Niki Keyhani: I should put that. [01:16:35] I’ll add on to the list of.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Niki Keyhani: It’s on the list of things I [01:16:40] need to do.

Payman Langroudi: Favourite book? Book like ordinary book or. Like [01:16:45] maybe one that sort of changed your. Oh, I don’t know. Just what comes to mind.

Niki Keyhani: Symbiotic planet. [01:16:50] Selfish gene.

Payman Langroudi: Selfish gene, selfish gene.

Niki Keyhani: Love completely changed my [01:16:55] viewpoint. Um, and I recently [01:17:00] actually read by Marjan Kamali. Um, the book. Oh, [01:17:05] what’s it called? Bookstore in Tehran. Yeah. Really [01:17:10] sweet. Really short as well. Simple read, but invokes the feelings and then [01:17:15] pack it away.

Payman Langroudi: Best course you’ve been on.

Niki Keyhani: I’m [01:17:20] Clinton, PJ David and then, um, Basel [01:17:25] Basel for a one day. Listen, I spent a [01:17:30] whole day making one temporary. Yeah, not making temporaries making [01:17:35] one temporary. And then we refined it. And then we came back from lunch and we refined it some more. And then we made it again. [01:17:40] But amazing. Incredible. The level of detail, the the [01:17:45] teaching style. Incredible.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I think he’s got a real skill [01:17:50] in like tailoring the conversation to the particular person as well.

Niki Keyhani: Absolutely. It’s the combination [01:17:55] of the knowledge, but also the the way that he expresses that knowledge, the [01:18:00] way he makes you understand and see what he’s seeing. That’s talent.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. They say like [01:18:05] that it often like from complexity comes simplicity. Like if you if you if you [01:18:10] really fully understand something, you can explain it simply. Yeah. You know, [01:18:15] and I feel like with him, it’s like that. Yeah. Um, what about if [01:18:20] there was no time or money constraints at all? What? What course would you jump into tomorrow? [01:18:25]

Niki Keyhani: I don’t think I have, like, a course. I have, like, um, [01:18:30] people I admire that I would love to see them speak or I would love to see their work. Uh, [01:18:35] Sanada. Doctor Sanada, obviously. And I at the moment, I’m not [01:18:40] hugely I’m not doing a lot of composites, but if you do, this is the number one thing people ask me. Oh, I do a [01:18:45] composites. What do you think, Felipe Villaverde? Beautiful, [01:18:50] beautiful work. Like, I just, I’m that weird person who’s like, scrolling on his Instagram [01:18:55] page every now and then and just in awe of the fact that this is composite, like incredible, [01:19:00] beautiful work.

Payman Langroudi: You wouldn’t jump on like a coyote or a spear continuum or something like [01:19:05] that. You feel like.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, this point in the game. Come [01:19:10] on, I did occlusion. I’ve done it.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve had enough.

Niki Keyhani: I’ve had enough of the occlusion, I get it. It’s great, you [01:19:15] know.

Payman Langroudi: And you do just composite bonding.

Niki Keyhani: I do do composite bonding. Yeah, because patients want [01:19:20] it, right? Um, so, yeah, it’s in the arsenal. If they need it, I’ll pop it out. [01:19:25] So where.

Payman Langroudi: Did you learn that.

Niki Keyhani: Composite bonding practice initially. Like I didn’t [01:19:30] go on any course initially for it.

Payman Langroudi: They didn’t teach it on the course.

Niki Keyhani: They do, [01:19:35] but they teach it in terms of pathology. So tooth wear cases, how to stabilise [01:19:40] with composite. And then you know also this is the thing you’ve got to remember. King’s Eastman, everyone has their [01:19:45] own styles I would say massively so. King’s is very much um, they [01:19:50] let me do which I’m thankful for a lot of ceramic, a lot of digital, which [01:19:55] was amazing because that’s where pros is. That’s where it’s going [01:20:00] at a mile, you know, so fast. At this rate, if you’re not going into digital, if you’re not going to truly [01:20:05] understanding your ceramics, where to use it, where your materials then? It’s it’s [01:20:10] going to limit you.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a digital in the undergrad course now or. No. I think so by now. There must.

Niki Keyhani: Be. [01:20:15] There is I mean they’ve got scanners, they’ve got the printers, they’ve got everything.

Payman Langroudi: Um, do you feel [01:20:20] differently? Was it the same teachers who taught you undergrad and some of them teaching?

Niki Keyhani: Some were.

Payman Langroudi: Some. Is there [01:20:25] a massive difference in the way they approach you? That or no.

Niki Keyhani: Oh yeah. Yeah. So definitely. [01:20:30] So now, for example, my the person who taught me pros initially I [01:20:35] was with him to examine the new undergrads.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Niki Keyhani: Which [01:20:40] was amazing. Uh, Doctor Saxena nice. So [01:20:45] really nice to kind of sit beside him and he has to mark it and I give the [01:20:50] final mark. So trippy. So weird to be [01:20:55] next to this person that you taught me how to cram prep. And now I’m telling you whether it should be like a 15 [01:21:00] or 16 pointer. Um, but yeah, it’s it’s nice, [01:21:05] you know, it’s you’re changing. Changing the relationship from mentorship guidance to [01:21:10] equal.

Payman Langroudi: It’s amazing. I’ve had I’ve really learned a lot from you. I really have. [01:21:15] Your attitude is brilliant. It really is. We’re going to finish with our usual [01:21:20] questions.

Niki Keyhani: Oh, yeah. Go on.

Payman Langroudi: Fantasy dinner party. Three guests. Who did you come up with?

Niki Keyhani: This is the hardest [01:21:25] question. Okay, every single listen, you’re going to have 20 listeners [01:21:30] right now listening to my answer, trying to work out which one of their answers.

Payman Langroudi: You’re [01:21:35] putting too much pressure on yourself.

Niki Keyhani: Yes, I am, because you only gave me three. You only gave me three. [01:21:40] Okay. Um, so I [01:21:45] have to say this one because I think he’s hilarious. Um, like Robin Williams. [01:21:50]

Payman Langroudi: Oh. The best. Love him. Love him.

Niki Keyhani: Hilarious. Um. Great [01:21:55] comedian. Um, I’m going to say more than three. I [01:22:00] I’m rejecting your parameters. Fair enough. Um, And Alan [01:22:05] from hangover. Alan from hangover. Come [01:22:10] on.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know.

Niki Keyhani: The hangover, the movie.

Payman Langroudi: Doesn’t it? Sorry. Jesus. [01:22:15] What?

Niki Keyhani: No wonder you’ve not seen Between Two Ferns. [01:22:20]

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know.

Niki Keyhani: I feel like you. You need to. You need to watch a couple of things tonight.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not into.

Niki Keyhani: Movies. [01:22:25] Okay.

Payman Langroudi: So that one, Alan from the character, is he?

Niki Keyhani: Oh, he’s a character. He’s [01:22:30] a he’s a character?

Payman Langroudi: No, but is he a character? He’s an actor. He’s the character.

Niki Keyhani: He’s the character.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, you [01:22:35] want that character?

Niki Keyhani: I want that character. Cool, cool. Um, just because I think he would be [01:22:40] wild and you need someone like that at a dinner party.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Niki Keyhani: Um. And then I need to have. [01:22:45] I need to have, like, maybe even marriage and karmali like [01:22:50] a female Iranian to represent us. Um, [01:22:55] I would love a David Attenborough. I would love, like, a Judi Dench or something. [01:23:00] Oh, sir Ian McKellen. I’m a massive Lord of the rings fan. Um. [01:23:05]

Payman Langroudi: So. Six. I’m gonna stop you there.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, six. Oh, and then my niece, because she’s [01:23:10] only two. She doesn’t count.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. That’s right.

Niki Keyhani: She just has to be in the corner.

Payman Langroudi: She could she.

Niki Keyhani: Can come in the corner. So. [01:23:15]

Payman Langroudi: So, yeah. That was.

Niki Keyhani: I can give you more. Do you want to cut me here?

Payman Langroudi: Go on. Go go [01:23:20] go. I just feel like you’re going to set a precedence now. But go on, go on, go on. Give [01:23:25] me one more.

Niki Keyhani: Um. Give you one. Oh, only one more. The mathematician.

Payman Langroudi: Lady. [01:23:30] Oh, the Iranian one.

Niki Keyhani: What’s her.

Payman Langroudi: Name? Yeah, I can’t remember.

Niki Keyhani: Like, she would be smart. Yeah, she would [01:23:35] teach me something.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, she was cool. Yeah, cool as well.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. I’d give her some mad equations and she would [01:23:40] come out with some crazy answers.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, although it wasn’t Nobel Prize was something else. It was it. What was it? It was a maths prize. It was [01:23:45] different.

Niki Keyhani: It was maths. Whatever it was. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Amazing answer. So [01:23:50] final. Final questions. Deathbed. I know it’s weird at 2031. [01:23:55] I know it’s weird, but on your deathbed.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Three [01:24:00] pieces of advice for your loved ones And you know, you can answer this question in two different ways, right? One is [01:24:05] I was very determined. So you should be determined. That’s one answer. [01:24:10] Another one is I wish I was more.

Niki Keyhani: I don’t like either of those risk taking. [01:24:15]

Payman Langroudi: You should take more risks. You know, like.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Those or whatever. Answer however you [01:24:20] like.

Niki Keyhani: But to be able to do whatever it is they want to do. Forget me. Do what you [01:24:25] want. Do what makes you happy.

Payman Langroudi: But. Advice.

Niki Keyhani: Um, my advice would be my first advice would be, you [01:24:30] know how people say, oh, I’ve had a yes day, or I’ve had a yes month? Yeah. Make your life a yes [01:24:35] day. Every, every day is a yes day. Like there’s nothing that you should say no to. Um. [01:24:40] Experience it. See where it leads you see what you do.

Payman Langroudi: It’s beautiful advice. [01:24:45] Have you, have you come across that sort of advice which is about saying no more?

Niki Keyhani: No. [01:24:50]

Payman Langroudi: What’s that like as people get busy and older? Yeah. Yeah. A lot, a lot [01:24:55] of people come to you with ideas and opportunities. Yeah. Yeah. [01:25:00] And the ones you say no to are really important, right? Because you [01:25:05] waste a lot of time by saying yes to things.

Niki Keyhani: Sometimes that’s fine. It’s okay to say no to things [01:25:10] that aren’t going to serve you. But hear them out. Because I’ve also heard that when I was a younger dentist and [01:25:15] I would go to, you know, people that I could admire or people I wanted to ask a question of, and I could [01:25:20] just see they’d cut me before I’d even started. They weren’t interested in hearing my thoughts, my my [01:25:25] ideas even. And now that I look back, I’m like, you missed out on a trick because maybe I [01:25:30] didn’t have something else to say. But there’s ten other people behind me. They one of them probably has a good idea.

Payman Langroudi: Super [01:25:35] interested in.

Niki Keyhani: That. Yeah, 100%. One of them definitely has a good idea. So hear everyone out. You don’t have [01:25:40] to say yes, but you need to put yourself in those opportunities where you can say yes, [01:25:45] that’s what a yes day is for me. Yeah. Just go everywhere, experience [01:25:50] everything, get out of your comfort zone.

Payman Langroudi: That’s super important advice. Second piece of advice. [01:25:55]

Niki Keyhani: Second piece of advice is don’t take [01:26:00] everything seriously. I think at the end of the day, if you’ve put a smile [01:26:05] on one person’s face and you’ve made one positive impact you’ve achieved, [01:26:10] it doesn’t always have to be. And this is probably advice for myself, [01:26:15] but it doesn’t always have to be the tick box or the goal or the [01:26:20] thing. Just live, enjoy [01:26:25] and take it as it comes.

Payman Langroudi: I often think about impact in sort [01:26:30] of breadth and depth kind of terms, and there’s many ways you can think of it. You [01:26:35] can think of it in numbers of people you’ve impacted.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But the, [01:26:40] the, the depth one interests me much more than the breadth one. And I [01:26:45] remember when I was, when I was a young dentist like you and I was saying to my boss, my [01:26:50] mentor guy yesterday, I was saying, I can’t believe it’s [01:26:55] just these four walls and this town. And he said something. At the time I thought he [01:27:00] was talking crap, but he said, look, you could impact one patient deeply is [01:27:05] as important as impacting the whole population. And at the [01:27:10] time, I didn’t get it, but now I do. Now a lot of a lot of what we do in the company is around that, [01:27:15] you know, even this this conversation. Right? 100%.

Niki Keyhani: Look, we’ve all seen thousands [01:27:20] of patients at this point, right? There’s going to be 1 or 2 that stick out in your mind for a certain reason. [01:27:25] For me, it was this. So my dad had a heart attack [01:27:30] around seven years ago. And it was it was a bad one. [01:27:35] There was there was a few details involved and, um, I was obviously off work for a little while. And [01:27:40] when I came back, they’d one of my patients had left a gift for me [01:27:45] and said, you know, I’ve had a heart attack myself. I know what it involves. [01:27:50] I know what it entails. I’m so sorry to hear and written the most beautiful letter [01:27:55] that to this day I’ve kept and to this day I think about often. And [01:28:00] that’s it was a patient who was lovely, but I [01:28:05] wouldn’t have thought of, you know. But the way he thought about me, the way he then impacted my life [01:28:10] with that letter I’ll never forget. Never forget. So, yeah, it’s not about [01:28:15] how many impact. It’s about the depth that you’ve impacted someone and the energy [01:28:20] that you give them then moving forward.

Payman Langroudi: Third piece of advice.

Niki Keyhani: Third piece [01:28:25] of advice. It’s [01:28:30] not enough to just be kind. You need to be truly kind, [01:28:35] truly kind in your heart. Kind. Go on. Sometimes kindness [01:28:40] is when people, they just do something, you know, it’s a kind thing, but it’s not always [01:28:45] with the purest intentions. True kindness, I think, is when from your heart, you genuinely [01:28:50] don’t wish anyone ill and you genuinely want the best for everyone around [01:28:55] you and you. Other people’s success just brings you happiness. True [01:29:00] kindness is what you need to achieve. Hello approved [01:29:05] the three year the three advices approved.

Payman Langroudi: I haven’t had that one before. [01:29:10]

Niki Keyhani: I didn’t think you would approve any of them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I like that one a lot.

Niki Keyhani: I think as I see it all [01:29:15] the time.

Payman Langroudi: You know, there’s also mental disease in um, people pleasing.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. Yeah. [01:29:20]

Payman Langroudi: And that’s almost.

Niki Keyhani: Touched on a big topic.

Payman Langroudi: That’s done. [01:29:25] That’s done without any agenda with the agenda is like, you only get peace yourself when [01:29:30] you’re giving.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I can think of a few people in my life like that, the [01:29:35] wonderful people, but they look after themselves at all.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. I mean, there’s, you know, [01:29:40] don’t people please don’t go above and beyond, but work on being truly kind [01:29:45] to someone or just being truly kind.

Payman Langroudi: It’s lovely. Lovely what you’re.

Niki Keyhani: Saying. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Really [01:29:50] enjoyed it.

Niki Keyhani: Me too. For having me.

Payman Langroudi: I feel like I should be more like you.

Niki Keyhani: I [01:29:55] feel like I should be more like you. Really? Yeah. You’ve had some great stories. Amazing. [01:30:00] Yeah. I feel like my my stories were chill in comparison.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, no.

Niki Keyhani: You [01:30:05] can make something out of that.

Payman Langroudi: I love your attitude. I really love your attitude.

Niki Keyhani: Thank you.

[VOICE]: This [01:30:10] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get [01:30:15] to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:30:20] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [01:30:25]

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole [01:30:30] thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening [01:30:35] to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out [01:30:40] of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if [01:30:45] you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so so [01:30:50] much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast comes to you from Enlighten Enlightens, an advanced teeth whitening system [00:00:05] that guarantees results on every single patient. We’ve treated hundreds of thousands of patients [00:00:10] now and have a really clear understanding of what it takes to get every patient to that delighted [00:00:15] state that we want to get to. If you want to understand teeth whitening in much further detail, join [00:00:20] us for online training only takes an hour completely free. Even if you never use [00:00:25] enlighten as a whitening system, you’ll learn loads and loads about whitening, how to talk about it, [00:00:30] how to involve your teams. Join us enlighten online training comm.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:40] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [00:00:45] leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Richard Porter: Feelings [00:00:55] are the currency of human existence. And so when somebody comes [00:01:00] into a learning environment or a patient turns up to or I come to your podcast, I have feelings. And [00:01:05] if you can understand how those feelings are and you can empathise with [00:01:10] that person, you can create the most optimal outcome for them. And so I’m very [00:01:15] into the soft skills side of things. Um, I do think you need to be able to do dentistry. [00:01:20] I don’t know about you what your experience was. Can I ask you a question before we even get really into it? Rate [00:01:25] your dental school experience out of ten with you. Bear in mind all [00:01:30] of your amazing knowledge, skills, experience, incredible setup.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:01:35] mean, I like to separate that into, you know, the educational side and the, you know, because I had the best [00:01:40] five years of my life. A lot.

Richard Porter: Of you had fun.

Payman Langroudi: And a lot of people don’t. I’ve noticed that. I thought everyone [00:01:45] had that, but but a lot of people find that some of the hardest times of their life. Yeah, I didn’t realise [00:01:50] that. But from the educational perspective, one benefit I had was I did [00:01:55] in Kent.

Richard Porter: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: And, uh, all [00:02:00] the groups were made up of everyone from the three London schools back then. [00:02:05] Okay. And me and you could see from the different subjects that were coming up, the things that we were taught [00:02:10] better than them. And then there were quite a few things that they were taught better than, better than [00:02:15] we were in Cardiff. I was in Cardiff, I guess.

Richard Porter: I guess the question is when someone spat out of dental school, are [00:02:20] are they have we treated them fairly? Are they, are they competent to not [00:02:25] quite stand alone, but very nearly stand alone and face all the trials and tribulations of being a GDP? I’m [00:02:30] not convinced.

Payman Langroudi: No, of course not.

Richard Porter: I’m not convinced. So I’m not sure.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a very minimum. Right. [00:02:35]

Richard Porter: Yeah. And I yeah, I was one of those who I didn’t like dental school in year one at [00:02:40] all. And I was in London and I just everyone was just so rude.

Payman Langroudi: Guys.

Richard Porter: Guys [00:02:45] back in. Yeah. Old school guys. I don’t know what I’m doing with my hand there, but something like that. [00:02:50]

Payman Langroudi: Wolfson House.

Richard Porter: Floor 14. Wolfson house.

Payman Langroudi: You. This [00:02:55] is a.

Richard Porter: Man who’s.

Payman Langroudi: Travelled. My brother. Yeah. Oh. Did he? Yeah. Okay.

Richard Porter: Yeah. [00:03:00] So? So I was at, uh. Guys. Yeah. And I thought when I went there, everyone [00:03:05] seemed more confident. Everyone seemed so sure of themselves. Everyone seems so certain [00:03:10] about their purpose, direction, what the right social behaviour was. And I just found not [00:03:15] the students so much. But like London’s this busy [00:03:20] cold. It has a million people in London. But it’s easy to feel lonely [00:03:25] in London.

Payman Langroudi: Where had you grown up?

Richard Porter: In rural Kent, in a village in Kent. Very [00:03:30] simple place.

Payman Langroudi: Which one was.

Richard Porter: Your, uh. So if you’ve heard. If you’ve heard of the village, I’m going to buy [00:03:35] you a horse. Uh, it’s a village called Hunton. The nearest town is Maidstone. And, [00:03:40] you know, I went through a a very simple education system. Nothing posh, nothing fancy. [00:03:45] And, uh, I, I loved school, and I loved [00:03:50] being around other people who said please and thank [00:03:55] you. It’s that important. It felt important. And you come to London and it was. I guess it’s just the [00:04:00] big bad city. And maybe it just toughened me up a little bit. But year one, I found it very.

Payman Langroudi: And then year [00:04:05] two, three. Four, five. Did you enjoy it much more?

Richard Porter: Do you know, I. I don’t know about you. You [00:04:10] know what’s important to you with your your education. I found it, I found [00:04:15] it difficult to. I don’t know if we’d talk about personality psychology today, [00:04:20] but I study personality psychology a lot. And if you were to, I can show you my scores. And one of my scores [00:04:25] relates to who I like in terms of authority. And I’m very, very selective [00:04:30] over who will have authority over me. I’m very choosy and I’m very judgemental on that. I can’t I’m [00:04:35] not saying it’s a bad thing, it’s just and I found it difficult to be inspired. Mhm. And [00:04:40] then I remember sitting there thinking I’m here to dental school and someone’s saying this [00:04:45] is foramen of Ali and this is Kreb’s cycle. And, and [00:04:50] I remember thinking am I in the wrong room? You know, fatty acid synthesis. How [00:04:55] many times have you used it in your career? No no no no, I’m on a zero as well. I know it’s important. [00:05:00] I know it’s really.

Payman Langroudi: If you were the king of dentistry and you could change the course because the course doesn’t [00:05:05] change. This is one thing. I mean, I know it’s changed, but it’s just [00:05:10] in our little world of bleaching. Yeah, it was illegal. So that was the reason they [00:05:15] weren’t teaching it. But it’s been legal. Fully legal now for 13 years.

Richard Porter: Yeah. [00:05:20]

Payman Langroudi: And they’re still not teaching it.

Richard Porter: Is that right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. They’re teaching internal whitening. That’s [00:05:25] still on the course. There’s half an hour or something on internal whitening. But but bleaching, which is, you know, [00:05:30] fully legal. And the thing that everyone wants the most in practice isn’t taught in dental school.

Richard Porter: And how does [00:05:35] it make you feel as someone who’s right in the middle of it?

Payman Langroudi: Well, it’s ridiculous. It makes [00:05:40] me realise that things don’t change. Things don’t change much in dental school. So if you could change [00:05:45] them, what would you change? I mean, what would we take out? Because once you take out that kreb’s cycle bit. [00:05:50] Some guy who later on goes on to become a max factor doesn’t know that and [00:05:55] doesn’t become an oral medicine guy. True, but you could. There’s lots of things we don’t teach. [00:06:00] So what would you do?

Richard Porter: You know. I mean, what a question. I, I think I look [00:06:05] at first of all, I think you have to the outcome has to be the outcome for me has [00:06:10] to be patients get better care. So if we do root cause analysis from that, if you’re going to get a patient getting better [00:06:15] care, you can’t say I’m going to capture 100%, but most of them. So if we’re going to do that then you [00:06:20] need good dentists. So the question then is what makes a good dentist. [00:06:25] And to make a good dentist I would really break that into six [00:06:30] big areas. And we’ve got to give them the knowledge and clinical skill set that’s most applicable [00:06:35] to them. And that would definitely include bleaching. I definitely include bleaching. And if [00:06:40] we say I mean you could almost do a like for like you could say if you need the knowledge and clinical skill set, [00:06:45] do you need to spend ages learning Krebs cycle, or how to give an ID block as painlessly [00:06:50] and as comfortably as comfortably as something like that can be. I would compare those two and say if it’s one [00:06:55] or the other, it’s a very easy choice because I have delegates who come onto our courses and we talk to [00:07:00] them.

Richard Porter: You know, if there’s a group of 20, I’ll say, let one of you in this room is nervous about every single ID block, and you’re [00:07:05] running at 50% success and failure. I know you are, because I was one of them, and I was nervous [00:07:10] every time I had to give an ID block the night before. And if that’s you, come and talk to me [00:07:15] and we will sort that out. Let’s take that little anxiety away. So so I would be very selective on knowledge and clinical [00:07:20] skill set. They, I think they I think the second thing you need is time. [00:07:25] And I would say to them this this means you’re going to need to allocate this much time to do [00:07:30] your job this well. And people say really well. So one of the great [00:07:35] people I had admired, I admired, who was a colleague of mine at Saint George’s, is Henry Marsh, one of the world’s [00:07:40] most famous neurosurgeons, and he wrote a couple of incredible books. I wish I brought you one And [00:07:45] imagine Henry is going to cut a tumour out of your brain. And he says it’ll [00:07:50] take me eight hours, Payman. And you go, no, no, no, mate, you got three and a half years, [00:07:55] you know, and as a patient you would find that abhorrent.

Richard Porter: It’s just no [00:08:00] way it’s going to happen. So you need knowledge and clinical skill set. You need time. You need the [00:08:05] right equipment and materials. You know, and I’ve seen I worked in a practice where the light cure was like [00:08:10] a little blue candle out of Oliver Twist. You know, it didn’t do anything. Um, [00:08:15] you need tactical emotional intelligence, which I’m very [00:08:20] big on. And that’s a soft skill thing you and I are talking about. You need to understand that feelings are the currency of [00:08:25] human existence and the currency of Dental experience, and you really need to build that up. You need [00:08:30] systems in delivery, and you need to build a good team around it. So you need those six things and if you can do that. So I would build a [00:08:35] curriculum around those and anything that didn’t fit in that curriculum or like we keep [00:08:40] talking about Krebs cycle. But I would add that as a bolt on if you chose to diverge your career towards max factor or [00:08:45] something with a more medical slant. That’s what I would do.

Payman Langroudi: So look, do [00:08:50] you recognise what I’m saying when I say that sometimes the knowledge itself isn’t [00:08:55] enough? Insomuch as I know if I wanted to look like you, big [00:09:00] arms. I needed to go to the gym every day and not eat crap. Right. But. But I’m not doing [00:09:05] that. Yeah. So the sort of the mindset to change that [00:09:10] change behaviour change, you know, it should be behaviour change should be like for hygiene, it should [00:09:15] be like a third of their course. Right. Because you know.

Richard Porter: I, I [00:09:20] could have say more.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Richard Porter: Do you mind if we dwell on that example. So. So I’m [00:09:25] supposedly a specialist as well. But the I work with a hygienist who’s very [00:09:30] good at getting people to change their behaviour. Mhm. And I [00:09:35] would make the case that if someone has perio the mainstay is to remove [00:09:40] the bacterial insult. Yeah. You can change the host response and you can modulate their immune system and things like that. But it’s [00:09:45] to remove the plaque insult to their body. How often does that [00:09:50] need to be done every day. So you’re talking specifically about behaviour change. So I think perio [00:09:55] is primarily treated with psychology. I don’t think it’s treated with modified widman flaps [00:10:00] and debridement. I think it is if you can take someone and say, right, motivate. So you and I talk about [00:10:05] motivation there and dental schools have motivation, but the motivation [00:10:10] might be to sit still and do nothing. It might be protective over a sense of ego [00:10:15] or tradition or conformity or rules and regulations from [00:10:20] an external source. I don’t know, but they are certainly motivated. You and I are motivated [00:10:25] right now to sit down. If someone sits at home and watches TV and eats cookies, [00:10:30] they are motivated. If you go to the gym, you’re motivated. It’s [00:10:35] stimulus and response. Everything is stimulus and response.

Payman Langroudi: So with that in mind, [00:10:40] do you? I mean, I watched a piece that [00:10:45] you did that you were walking in the countryside talking about this.

Richard Porter: The motivations of big subjects.

Payman Langroudi: And I [00:10:50] found it very excellent. I found it brilliant. Thanks. Because because I really did think there was motivated [00:10:55] people in one, one side of the room, and [00:11:00] then unmotivated people on the other side of the room. And it made a very nice thing that we’re all motivated, but [00:11:05] we’re motivated in different directions. We are it’s useful, it’s a useful.

Richard Porter: And [00:11:10] and some motivations come with social reward and academic reward and financial reward and other ones [00:11:15] come with other rewards. And yeah, I mean, to break that down, we I would think of [00:11:20] motivation as a mixture of internal and external. External [00:11:25] is really, you know, fame, accolades, status, applause. [00:11:30] The more your.

Payman Langroudi: Ego kind of.

Richard Porter: Yeah, yeah. And acquisition of trinkets, [00:11:35] you know, posh watches and Birkin bags. I’ve found out. Or a thing. And if you if you [00:11:40] if you’re motivated externally, then the external world has control over [00:11:45] the volume on your motivation centre. And it’s and you’re going to be in a reactive state and then internal [00:11:50] motivation which is beautiful. Motivation is based around curiosity purpose and passion. [00:11:55] And that is your self reinforcing rocket fuel to become whatever you [00:12:00] want to be. But it starts with curiosity and everyone needs a bit of that. Like we’re doing your podcast now [00:12:05] and I’m not. I try and be very internally motivated, but people’s opinions [00:12:10] of me matter to me. What you think of me matters to me. And what your audience will think is is [00:12:15] important to me. So no one’s immune to it.

Payman Langroudi: No completely.

Richard Porter: Only psychopaths genuinely [00:12:20] are entirely internally motivated. Other people’s opinions of them are irrelevant. [00:12:25]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, interesting.

Richard Porter: So I’m definitely not one of them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Richard Porter: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So, so in the, [00:12:30] in the sort of self-development realm. Yeah. Do you, Were [00:12:35] you someone who wasn’t so motivated in that sense and [00:12:40] now are like, where did that journey start for you?

Richard Porter: You know, I, I’m not trying to be falsely [00:12:45] modest. It’s just luck. Payman. It’s who you meet. And if you meet people, I mean, I’m lucky to [00:12:50] be here, but if you meet people who inspire you and teach you and you can connect with them, [00:12:55] I think you get ideas. And and I’ve been incredibly lucky to [00:13:00] meet people on the way who I found inspiring. And I’m always [00:13:05] shocked if you ask someone for help who’s in a position above you? [00:13:10] Yeah. How willing people are to help you. It just it’s just incredible. That’s why I love [00:13:15] humans. I think we’re awesome. And and people will help. And so [00:13:20] I was always motivated. Not always for the best things in life. [00:13:25] None of us are perfect. I’ve got as many flaws as anyone. And I have plenty [00:13:30] of dental school. And I’ve got enough points on my license now to prove I’m. But [00:13:35] I. I started studying psychology. The reason I started studying how people think and [00:13:40] feel was I recognised that every single patient, even at dental school, like we were sitting on the [00:13:45] floor and someone would come in and no matter what you did, they wouldn’t be happy with their denture. And [00:13:50] that can’t be that. It’s just not technically made. Well, it has [00:13:55] to be something internal.

Richard Porter: And I’ll tell you another brief story. I was walking through. One [00:14:00] of the pieces of architecture is in, um, the cloisters at Gloucester [00:14:05] Cathedral, where they filmed quite a lot of the Harry Potter scenes. And there’s a time of day [00:14:10] you can go there, and a time of year when the sunlight is literally golden and the stained [00:14:15] glass windows come through this light. And no matter who you are, you walk through [00:14:20] there and you go, this is just there’s a there’s a feeling, and it makes the hair on the back [00:14:25] of your neck stand up. You can feel it. And that is light and stone. It [00:14:30] is light and stone because it’s glass. And and I had this thought. Yeah, I just think like [00:14:35] so you’ll see it a million times on Instagram. The first thing you give a patient is a mirror. [00:14:40] Once you’ve done their rehab I see people doing this all the time. Light comes from the ceiling, comes from the windows. [00:14:45] It hits the stone. It hits the mirror. Just photons of light. It [00:14:50] goes through that little hole in their eyes, their pupils. And what does it turn into? Feelings [00:14:55] and emotions. So light and stone equals emotions. And I [00:15:00] just got captivated by this idea. And that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful.

Richard Porter: Man. Well I, well [00:15:05] I’ve been.

Payman Langroudi: I.

Richard Porter: I’ve been on the receiving end of you put it up [00:15:10] and you’re thinking, I’m not sure that light and stone is going to create the right feelings. And the patient goes, is this a joke? You [00:15:15] know, and you go, no, no, no, this is just a giant. But but it’s it’s that. And [00:15:20] again, it proves the point. Feelings are the currency of our existence. And you know, what you want on [00:15:25] Instagram is that moment where everyone claps and it’s like, oh my God, I’m crying. And so light. Light [00:15:30] is emotion. And I got interested in that. So I started studying that [00:15:35] with fever. Fever and energy. And that led me to meet loads of other inspiring [00:15:40] psychologists. So people who understand human motivation and [00:15:45] understand concepts like future self orientation rather than being in a reactive state which [00:15:50] could expand.

Payman Langroudi: Expand on that.

Richard Porter: I can rant.

Payman Langroudi: All day how I want to be when I’m 70.

Richard Porter: Do [00:15:55] you know, do you know? So that’s that’s I mean, that’s a, that’s a that’s a big stretch. If [00:16:00] you think about your. First of all, let me make the case [00:16:05] that your, your brain doesn’t care that you’re happy. It cares that you’re alive. [00:16:10] It’s predisposed to make you worried and miserable for a number [00:16:15] of reasons. Because if you and I are walking through the woods a thousand years ago and I’m happy go lucky, [00:16:20] and like the rustling of the side is probably nothing. And you go, which I think is danger, you [00:16:25] leg it and I don’t, I get eaten. So all that genetic code saying, don’t worry about it, it’s dead. It’s all inside [00:16:30] animals, whereas yours is alive. So now we have this group of people on Earth called humans, and we’re predisposed [00:16:35] to worry and anxiety and negative emotions. And it’s not a bad thing. It keeps us safe. So [00:16:40] we have that. We then have concepts of good emotions, [00:16:45] happiness, joy, fulfilment. But they all have to be earned and you [00:16:50] really do have to earn them apart from pleasure, which is, you know, we will [00:16:55] reach for our phones far too much. So we’ve got positive and negative emotion. And [00:17:00] if you have a terrible [00:17:05] life to date, like imagine you were unloved as a child, perhaps, and [00:17:10] you grew up in poverty and you were worried about food and you were worried about X, Y, and Z.

Richard Porter: But from this moment [00:17:15] on, you are now feeling connected, loved, opulent, full of hope, [00:17:20] opportunities and freedom for the rest of your life right now, in the moment. How do [00:17:25] you feel? I bet you feel quite good. So people don’t. They think their past [00:17:30] defines them. It’s not your past. It’s actually your future. Because your brain isn’t a happiness [00:17:35] machine. It’s a prediction machine. And it is making predictions for the very near [00:17:40] the mid and the long term future. And the more good predictions it can make, the better you feel in the [00:17:45] moment. If I switch that around and let’s say you had a wonderful childhood, loving family, [00:17:50] incredible educational opportunities, abundant food, travel opportunities, all [00:17:55] of that. Now it stops. Now you’re living in a skip, eating out of second hand crisp [00:18:00] packets. You’re alone, cold, worried. How do you feel in the moment? Don’t tell me your [00:18:05] past defines you. Because it doesn’t. It’s your future. So conceptually, what I [00:18:10] encourage dentists to do, people to do, anyone to do is to say there’s two things we really, really [00:18:15] need. We need clarity on our future like and that clarity on our future. [00:18:20] I would call your identity. It’s who Payman is going to become. It’s who Rich is going to become.

Richard Porter: And [00:18:25] then we need crystal clarity on it and then emotional attachment to it. [00:18:30] So if you can create a future. I know we’re on camera here, but if you imagine there’s a compass 360 [00:18:35] degrees and I can move in that direction, one particular direction, but I’m not emotionally attached [00:18:40] to it and it’s not clear. I’m just a leaf blowing in the wind. And we’ll be reactive, you know, and [00:18:45] I’ll get an invite to this and then a nasty patient, and then something happens and then my staff leave me and, you know, X, Y [00:18:50] and Z, you’re entirely reactive. If I then focus that down and I think that’s my future [00:18:55] that over there. Oh my God, I love that. Every little step [00:19:00] feels amazing. Every. You don’t even need to reach it. So what we need is [00:19:05] a future we love that we’re crystal clear about and to take steps towards it. And that’s how we get to feel good in the moment. [00:19:10] And to answer your earlier question, were there times in my life I wasn’t as motivated? I didn’t have a clear future, [00:19:15] and it’s a blessing to be able to do that because and [00:19:20] you can measure the personality characteristics that enable us to do this, but being able to think and [00:19:25] lay out a future you love for a given time period, you talk about 70, [00:19:30] but let’s say six months or let’s say next week, or let’s say two years, and [00:19:35] you can lay out a future.

Richard Porter: So it might be spending more time with your parents. It might be, you know, we did [00:19:40] it for someone recently and they just said, like I said, what do you want your average Tuesday to be like? Just tell me. And [00:19:45] they give wishy washy answers. And I said, well, tell me about your parents. Well, my mom’s alone. And I said, [00:19:50] well, how often do you see your mom? Once every month. Would you like to do that more often? Yeah, yeah I would. I said, [00:19:55] well, tell me a dream. It’s like, well, I want to have lunch with my mom every Tuesday from 11 till [00:20:00] three. And I said, okay, how do you feel when you think about that? And they’re like, I like that [00:20:05] a lot. Like they smile. I like it a lot. Well, let’s help you build a life where that’s real. Let’s [00:20:10] let’s just create it and that positive motion comes your way. So I’m very into [00:20:15] creating sense of identity. Um, we start with personality on that [00:20:20] personality side, so people can understand who they are and how they interact with the world. But becoming future orientated [00:20:25] is one of the biggest gifts you can give someone.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I like that. I like that. It’s fun [00:20:30] to do that with all the all the delegates.

Richard Porter: Anyone who wants to I, I think [00:20:35] like positive psychology or any form of psychology. You’re a bit like a vampire. You’ve [00:20:40] got to be invited in. I don’t think you can foist yourself onto people. [00:20:45] And so I will often try and extol [00:20:50] the virtues of tactical emotional intelligence and say that you could be incredibly [00:20:55] technically great, like the world’s best endodontists. But if your nurse [00:21:00] doesn’t like your receptionist doesn’t like you, and patients don’t like you, you’re going to be a very lonely, poor expert. If [00:21:05] you are likeable and there’s a skill to that [00:21:10] and, um, amicable and you get on well with your team and they advocate for you and your [00:21:15] patients like you, you’re better off being a good, competent dentist than an [00:21:20] absolute expert than that. So. So we offer that and we offer certainly [00:21:25] training in that across the board because it’s just an essential if people want to go further [00:21:30] then if they engage then for sure.

Payman Langroudi: And there must be a patient version of that [00:21:35] too, right. When you’re presenting a treatment plan, that’s the future and attaching [00:21:40] a patient’s emotions to that future.

Richard Porter: Yeah. Well, absolutely. [00:21:45] I mean, from from a whole point of view. I mean, I’ve heard some of your, your previous [00:21:50] work. So I think you’re pretty expert at this. You ask good questions, but I think you’re expert at this from the subject [00:21:55] as well. The, the I mean, I will often say to a patient, the reason I’m asking you these [00:22:00] questions is because what’s important to you is what’s important to me. So is there anything that’s particularly important [00:22:05] to you, not just in the procedure, but when it’s finished? I’m trying to work out [00:22:10] how you want to feel. So it’s nearly November. If you’ve got any big [00:22:15] events between now and Christmas? Or have you got a Christmas party? How do you want to feel when you smile [00:22:20] at that event? Talk to me about it. Who’s going to be there? What’s important? Got a wedding coming up. You [00:22:25] know what’s important to you is what’s important to me and build that in. And once. [00:22:30] I mean, it’s that classic Maya Angelou quote, isn’t it? Is. People don’t remember what you say. Or do they remember how [00:22:35] you made them feel? Or words to that effect. And it’s that and and if you can show [00:22:40] people that that to me Payman is is a crucible [00:22:45] and it’s where two people meet. So you and I haven’t met before, but we’re meeting today, and [00:22:50] that crucible is where your mind and my mind [00:22:55] that live in our brains, that are full of emotions, which we can’t really control [00:23:00] much, and they’ve become thoughts and feelings, and your thoughts and feelings are [00:23:05] your behaviours, and we call that personality. So this is the meeting point [00:23:10] of that whole process all the way down. It’s it’s all the way down. And you have this meeting point [00:23:15] of personalities. This is why understanding behavioural science and personality me is [00:23:20] key. And I think it’s personally super key for dentists because [00:23:25] if you’re a librarian, you know you don’t. But you and I, for a living work [00:23:30] like inside someone’s head.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Richard Porter: It’s crazy. So you [00:23:35] have this meeting of personalities and if that’s where you meet, understanding that crucible, that interaction [00:23:40] is fundamental to you having any form of success, whatever success may look like to [00:23:45] you. So, yeah, I try and show that we do run specific like courses [00:23:50] on that.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, listen, the one thing I’ve learned by stopping being a dentist is, [00:23:55] is that the people’s side of it is [00:24:00] even more important than I realised it was when when I was a dentist. [00:24:05]

Richard Porter: How so?

Payman Langroudi: Because it’s definitely the thing I miss the most. Okay. From being a dentist, [00:24:10] right? And yeah, I know that. Maybe that’s why I have a pod now or [00:24:15] whatever to make up for that. But as a dentist, you you don’t realise [00:24:20] the privileged situation you’re in that you’re sitting talking [00:24:25] to people in society or all different levels, and at a [00:24:30] moment when they’re at their most vulnerable and that vulnerable side [00:24:35] of it. You know, I used to have a boss who used to say, you young guys, none of you know what [00:24:40] it’s like to be a patient anymore. And how I had an inlay fit. [00:24:45] Yeah, three days ago. How right this guy was. Yeah. Because how [00:24:50] much we like to say how pleasant it is in a dental surgery and all the bits and pieces. It’s [00:24:55] horrible.

Richard Porter: It is.

Payman Langroudi: It’s horrible. I would my wife was fitting. I was negotiating with not [00:25:00] to numb me up for the fit. I love it, yeah, because I didn’t want to be numb for four [00:25:05] hours. I love that. And you forget, you know, like imagine as a dentist, you the number of times [00:25:10] you numb someone up thinking nothing of it at all. It’s four hours of bullshit. Yeah. [00:25:15] It is. Yeah. I was pulling my own moustache out. Why [00:25:20] the hell am I still numb? Yeah.

Richard Porter: Is it going to stay forever?

Payman Langroudi: Such a simple thing, right? Such a simple. [00:25:25]

Richard Porter: Did you check your occlusion as well?

Payman Langroudi: Were you doing this?

Richard Porter: Were you giving a lot of that off?

Payman Langroudi: I’m a terrible patient. I’m [00:25:30] a terrible. But. But what I’m saying is, it’s a horrible experience. And so what you said about painless [00:25:35] injections. 100% agree with you on that.

Richard Porter: Do you know, I think I think I should I [00:25:40] should not contradict myself. But is it possible to give a painless injection? Nearly. [00:25:45] But what’s important is you showing the intent to do it painlessly, because you [00:25:50] don’t have to do dentistry with complete comfort. It’s not like having [00:25:55] a foot rub, you know? It can’t be. Now we’ve got that out, the out, the out [00:26:00] in the open. But it’s you can show the intent to do it with kindness. [00:26:05] You can show that you have the intent to be compassionate and God [00:26:10] forbid. You know, I’m sure you’ve taken out teeth where you’ve given them a cauldron full of local anaesthetic, [00:26:15] and at the moment of delivery, they still wince because they’ve got this horrible infection there or something. And [00:26:20] but it’s the intent to get that over and done with and say, I’m so sorry. That last bit was uncomfortable. [00:26:25] That’s what matters. That’s the key to it. I know. I think one of the, the, [00:26:30] the caveats here is, and I spent a lot of your listeners, they will have probably [00:26:35] met a difficult patient. And I think that can leave scars and wounds [00:26:40] in people, um, that can take away that [00:26:45] compassion.

Richard Porter: And so I’d encourage anyone listening to this to I tell every group [00:26:50] I ever treat, it’s a room full of strangers. And I say, look, you’ve known me ten minutes. If [00:26:55] I go like this and I grab my heart and I collapse on the floor unconscious, I bet you’re all going to rush [00:27:00] over. And I bet if you and I go for a walk out in the street here and we both collapse on the floor, [00:27:05] strangers will rush over. Human solidarity is the norm. Humans being compassionate [00:27:10] and kind and helping each other is the norm. You are going to meet outliers and [00:27:15] let’s train you to detect them because they’re actually easy to detect once you know how. But [00:27:20] the norm is that nearly everyone you meet is a is a kind, reasonable, [00:27:25] compassionate person and you just need to connect with them. And once you’re connected with them, like they’ve got friends [00:27:30] and they’ve got family who connect with them, you just become the professional version. And as you say, it’s a privilege [00:27:35] to slot into that person’s life.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s sad when kind of what you’re alluding to. It’s [00:27:40] sad when my brother went for an examination, he’s had a full mouth rehab because he had okay, amelogenesis [00:27:45] imperfecta. And I said, hey, how was it? What happened? And he said it was [00:27:50] more like being a lawyer than at the dentist. Wow. And it’s sad, you know, that [00:27:55] that’s how the guy came across.

Richard Porter: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because he’s being so defensive with his whatever it [00:28:00] was.

Richard Porter: Because. Because the best advert you can have is that guy going back to work? [00:28:05] Your brother is going back to his job or going wherever and say, well, I need some dentistry. [00:28:10] And him saying, I’ve solved. I know exactly who you need to see. Not only is this person [00:28:15] precise, and they give me exactly what I want, the way they delivered it, it was just so kind, [00:28:20] so compassionate. You know, I really felt involved in the process and like, I was in control [00:28:25] of the decisions and, you know, really.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, all the all the research shows anyway, that people don’t [00:28:30] sue people they like, right? So yeah. Yeah, being liked is so much more important than having the right [00:28:35] signatures in the right places.

Richard Porter: 100% 100% 100% people, people, [00:28:40] people complain and sue through an emotional response to how they feel more than anything [00:28:45] else. It’s not your high energy. You can’t see your wife.

Payman Langroudi: You know this question [00:28:50] of, you know, the the people stuck to the teeth. You know, it’s [00:28:55] a big issue in enlightened. I’m always constantly dealing with my team on this subject of [00:29:00] look, how lucky are we that our product is on something that stuck to humans teeth, right? Stuck [00:29:05] to humans? That means we can tell all sorts of human stories around our product. And it’s not like [00:29:10] we’re selling a microphone stand. By the way, there to do with humans, too. But, [00:29:15] you know, human stories are what we should be focusing on. And then we make another advert with a [00:29:20] toothpaste spinning around or whatever. It does my head and I’m going berserk saying, [00:29:25] why is there a picture of toothpaste?

Richard Porter: Storytelling is key to it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah. And [00:29:30] and then from a, from a patient perspective, they’re going to tell you their stories. Um. What [00:29:35] think that with you. I’m really interested to know is at what point [00:29:40] did you decide I’m going to be the best?

Richard Porter: Uh, well, that’s a deep question. I [00:29:45] don’t I don’t think I have made that decision, and I don’t think I’m the best.

Payman Langroudi: I’m trying [00:29:50] to be.

Richard Porter: I’m trying to I so that comes down to motivation. And you [00:29:55] can look at motivation internal or external, but you could also classify it as approach or [00:30:00] avoid. And I think I’m more avoiding not being the [00:30:05] worst a failure than having a determination to be the best. [00:30:10] Um, I actually mean that. I do think that I think a lot of those things come from people’s childhoods, [00:30:15] from how you got validation from your parents, from how [00:30:20] you.

Payman Langroudi: Would you call yourself competitive?

Richard Porter: Yes, yes, I am [00:30:25] yeah. I am a competitive.

Payman Langroudi: And like and but.

Richard Porter: I don’t let [00:30:30] anyone see me coming.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I see yeah. So so so so for instance, are you the type of person. [00:30:35] If I said, listen you definitely can’t do this. You’ll do reverse.

Richard Porter: Psychology.

Payman Langroudi: You’ll you’ll [00:30:40] do whatever it takes to prove me wrong.

Richard Porter: I so I’ll tell you, I’ll tell [00:30:45] you, I’ll tell you a couple of stories. So I, I was I have I was competitive, I went to [00:30:50] a boys school. It’s a state school, but it was a boys school and it was a.

Payman Langroudi: Sports and. [00:30:55]

Richard Porter: Sports.

Payman Langroudi: Punch ups.

Richard Porter: Uh, plenty of those. And, you know, it was very sporty [00:31:00] and I loved competitive sport. And [00:31:05] I’m always I’m, you know, I love seeing human excellence. [00:31:10] And I guess I do like to be part of that. So a sane bolt Leonardo [00:31:15] da Vinci, Florence Nightingale, anyone who’s just excellent, pick [00:31:20] a world class pianist and just just take a moment to look at this person [00:31:25] and take all the inspiration you need from it. Mozart. Like, when did he start composing symphonies? When he’s younger [00:31:30] than my kids, you know, failures. The. So from that point [00:31:35] of view, I do love excellence. And I love the the awe inspiring [00:31:40] nature of what humans can achieve. And you just live in a world of wonder. So that [00:31:45] fascinates me. And if you can create something that contributes to that, then I definitely like that. I [00:31:50] find that inspiring. Equally, I remember being a vocational trainee and [00:31:55] thinking to myself, I don’t feel necessarily ready to do this. [00:32:00] People call that imposter syndrome. And so this is going back a way. Payman. And this is in the very [00:32:05] early days of the UFC. And I had, um, I wasn’t in the UFC, but I had a patient who was a British [00:32:10] contender in the early days of the UFC, the Ultimate Fighting competition, and that’s [00:32:15] where. And there were no weight classes back then, and he needed an endo, and [00:32:20] it was my first endo in it. And I said to the nurse, could I have a rubber dam? And [00:32:25] I got this blank look.

Richard Porter: And they said, I don’t know what that is. And I said, well, what [00:32:30] can we have? The endodontic equipment said, oh, you mean one of those little files? Yeah, I’ll get one out of the autoclave [00:32:35] because they weren’t single use. And I said, how do I stop this going down the [00:32:40] patient’s throat? And how do we use bleach and, and things like that. And it had a ring that [00:32:45] you’d put on your finger and it had a little chain that would clip on the end and it was rusted. So it was covered in [00:32:50] rust. And I was trying to do endo on this guy as best I could in this the situation with good intentions, [00:32:55] you know forgive me. And he he ended up with a big [00:33:00] swollen face and he couldn’t compete. And I just remember thinking, ah, what the [00:33:05] hell? You know, if there’s 40,000 dentists in the country, I’m ranked 39,998. [00:33:10] I reckon I’m better than two. I’m not. I’m not having a career of doing [00:33:15] this. And so pretty early on, and again, I’ve met some people who inspired me. I [00:33:20] thought, well, the only way I knew to get good back then was to go back into hospital. [00:33:25] So I actually took I applied for a job at the Royal London Hospital, and I made sure I got it as [00:33:30] best I could, and and I stayed in hospitals then for the next 25 years.

Payman Langroudi: Wow. [00:33:35] So that was the catalyst.

Richard Porter: It was it was fear of failure. I think it’s true for a lot of people, [00:33:40] you know, it’s it’s fear of not being enough. And, you know, I see if you [00:33:45] pick the average undergraduate now, they’ve gone through school and they’ve never failed at anything. They’d probably get [00:33:50] A’s in everything. If A’s even a thing. Now Nines. And then they go [00:33:55] to dental school and they get through dental school as well. And then they qualify. And you remember that moment? You qualify. [00:34:00] Suddenly you’re in practice, and suddenly someone like you and me, who’s not a dentist, [00:34:05] comes in and goes, that bit of work you did. It’s not good enough. You know, it might be your first ever failure as [00:34:10] a dentist, and it might be the first person who hasn’t told you your great have a pass, [00:34:15] but says, I’m not too happy about that. Mm. You know, and it’s I think that’s brutal. [00:34:20]

Payman Langroudi: It is. Yeah.

Richard Porter: It is brutal. And so we try I try and guide people through that [00:34:25] and understand it and get them a bead on mental resilience and then who they want [00:34:30] to become and tie that in with their identity, make them future orientated, help [00:34:35] people define what version of success is to them.

Payman Langroudi: So you went off and did [00:34:40] all the specialist training. I did the post [00:34:45] specialist training. I guess what I mean, what does it take to become a consultant? [00:34:50] You have to write papers and raise money, all that sort of thing.

Richard Porter: I think the goalposts [00:34:55] change. I’ll be very frank with you. I hope no one’s watching this get me into trouble. Um, so [00:35:00] you have to have done a certain amount of, um, training beforehand. [00:35:05] So a few hospital jobs. And I think there was still quite a lot of phone calls behind [00:35:10] hidden doors back then, and I worked hard. I’ll be honest, I did work hard, and, [00:35:15] um, I was pretty good at just getting in. And I’d look at consultants. If you were my consultant, I could say, right, [00:35:20] how do I make this guy happy? You know, where his stresses or his stresses are on the ward round. This isn’t [00:35:25] done. This isn’t done, this isn’t done. You watch what happens tomorrow. So tomorrow morning, I’d say the chest physio [00:35:30] is booked. This is done. He’s admitted overnight. I think you need an ultrasound before you make a decision. That’s happening in 20 [00:35:35] minutes. I’ll bring it to your desk later on. And they were like, okay, so I was quite good at things like [00:35:40] that. And, and and. Yes. And then I will answer your question. And then I applied [00:35:45] to do specialist registrar training and restorative, and [00:35:50] I’d visited the units beforehand and met the consultants, and I was very lucky. I do believe [00:35:55] I’m not being humble. I believe there was a lot of luck involved in that. And I was appointed and I worked very, very hard at that. [00:36:00] I was a registrar and back then you could sit a multidisciplinary exam, [00:36:05] which is Days of Vivas, where I’d sit in a room like you with 3 or [00:36:10] 4 other consultants, and they would cross-examine you on cases and statistics and literature, and [00:36:15] you would pass or fail.

Richard Porter: And theoretically, you got, you know, a few chances [00:36:20] to pass. And if you didn’t, the last 5 or 6 years would have been a waste. I was lucky to get through all [00:36:25] of that. And then you get appointed as a consultant. Um, and you would if you’d [00:36:30] passed the right bits, you would go on a few specialist lists. Um, and [00:36:35] so I managed to do that. I was very lucky, I was, I, I again, I keep [00:36:40] saying I’m not being humble or falsely humble. I was and I loved being a consultant, I really [00:36:45] did, I loved, I loved helping people. There is an element of status to it. [00:36:50] You get the right colour. Scrubs. Yeah, but someone will come in with terribly [00:36:55] worn teeth, hit by a car, a tumour, and [00:37:00] you’d be part of a team with incredible people who would sit down and would plan how [00:37:05] to put this person back together and give them as much quality of life as we could. And that’s, [00:37:10] that’s that’s a great, great privilege. I loved every second of that. I miss that [00:37:15] now. I’m not a consultant anymore. I do, I miss it a lot. I get to see some of [00:37:20] my consultant colleagues, a facial aesthetics event in a few weeks time, actually, and [00:37:25] I can’t wait to see them just to reconnect with them.

Payman Langroudi: So. Okay, so became a consultant. [00:37:30]

Richard Porter: Yeah. Became a consultant.

Payman Langroudi: And went into private practice.

Richard Porter: So yeah, I was a consultant. Um, [00:37:35] I started as a full time consultant. Then I just do 1 or 2 private patients in the evening, and I would do that in [00:37:40] either on a Saturday or at my friend’s Friends practice, or I would see 1 [00:37:45] or 2, like on a Monday or Tuesday and just one patient for a couple of things, and then I reduce [00:37:50] my timetable as time went on and I did a little more private practice. Um, [00:37:55] I think it’s important to do both. I think it’s important for senior NHS staff [00:38:00] to do both.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Richard Porter: So you know what it’s like to say if I do my job well enough, you pay [00:38:05] me this. And if I don’t, you don’t. You know that. Get off the salary assurance [00:38:10] train and really understand what it’s like to do. Do something that that that comes [00:38:15] at a potential risk of not getting paid for it if you don’t do it well enough. Um, and I [00:38:20] did that for a lot of years. Yeah, I did.

Payman Langroudi: Was there a particular area that you were particularly expert at?

Richard Porter: Um, [00:38:25] okay. That’s a bold question for me to answer. [00:38:30] Um, I’m good at endo. I’m good at prose. Um, I’m good at [00:38:35] talking to people. I perio bores [00:38:40] the life out of me in terms of a it doesn’t and there’s some great periodontists around there. But [00:38:45] perio for me was about behavioural change. It wasn’t about perio and [00:38:50] restorative kind of encompasses it all. So if you’re on those four specialist lists, um, I’ll [00:38:55] be honest, I, you know, I’m like so many people now. I love doing implants. It’s [00:39:00] just great.

Payman Langroudi: What you love about doing implants.

Richard Porter: Um, I [00:39:05] love the fact that it’s quite serious.

Payman Langroudi: It is serious. [00:39:10]

Richard Porter: It’s like, I don’t know if you ever have these moments. Payman tell me this. Say yes. Whatever the answer, real answer [00:39:15] is just to make me feel good. Yeah. Is I sometimes look at being [00:39:20] a sort of fully fledged professional and I think, oh my God, you’re an actual adult.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:39:25] know, like.

Richard Porter: You look at your children and you think, oh my goodness, you know, and [00:39:30] they call you dad. And I’m like, oh my God. Yeah, I’m one of those people. And [00:39:35] um, and implants have that. So they’re very serious. [00:39:40] You know, you have to cut someone open. Yeah, you’ve got to put this bit of metal in their skull. Screw [00:39:45] it in.

Payman Langroudi: So, for instance, you know, the serious thing is happening [00:39:50] tomorrow morning at 9 a.m. or 830, whatever. Yeah. For instance, the night before, [00:39:55] you’re like, get a good night’s sleep. Yeah.

Richard Porter: Within reason.

Payman Langroudi: Because this is what I’m saying, [00:40:00] that, you know, however many implants you’ve put in.

Richard Porter: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so serious that [00:40:05] you’re cutting this guy open and sticking a screw in his jaw that, you [00:40:10] know, at the moment you become nonchalant about it. You’re making a big error, right?

Richard Porter: Oh, no. Put beautifully. [00:40:15] I think you answered that better than I ever could. The. I think you should always, always be slightly [00:40:20] nervous. Yeah, I think you should always be slightly anxious about. I’m afraid [00:40:25] every day at work, the day you think. Don’t worry about it. This will be easy. Is [00:40:30] the day something’s going to go.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a feature of a professional, you know, like even a lawyer.

Richard Porter: Anxiety. [00:40:35] Yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: Agree. Even, you know when you say Do you think a professional a professional? [00:40:40] Yeah. And the image comes to your head of what that is? Yeah. There’s a worried look on [00:40:45] that guy’s face. Yeah. Yeah. It’s not. It’s not a big, big fat. You must have noticed my frown [00:40:50] line here. Yeah. So, so.

Richard Porter: And sleep is all relative, isn’t it? Yeah. I will think about the case. [00:40:55] No doubt at all. Mhm. Um, and, and I think about how [00:41:00] you can assure that person’s well-being as much as you can. That’s why I like transparent [00:41:05] operating, you know. So like if I was going to put an implant in and you said, Rich, we’re bringing the [00:41:10] podcast team down and we’re going to watch and film.

Payman Langroudi: You.

Richard Porter: That to me, I like because [00:41:15] that means, okay, a game on. Just get your A-game on. And this [00:41:20] is going to you know it’s a it’s like a layer of quality assurance. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Rich what do you think [00:41:25] is kind of rich. Yeah. What do you think is the hallmark of an expert? Because [00:41:30] I’m just trying to distil it down myself. Right. Of all the experts I’ve come across. [00:41:35] And if it’s a funny thing I’m now [00:41:40] coming down to doesn’t take shortcuts.

Richard Porter: Yeah, I think it’s true.

Payman Langroudi: Like basics, the basics are [00:41:45] exactly correct.

Richard Porter: I think a lot of it. Yeah, there’s different ways. It’s a very good question. I mean, first [00:41:50] of all, everything is comparative. So if you’re an expert, it’s compared to who. Yeah. Yeah yeah. So [00:41:55] you know I can run but at the same bolt is an expert runner compared [00:42:00] to me. Or is he just faster. But it’s all comparative. Yeah, I think I [00:42:05] think an expert, if you’re going to use that word expert in your identity, it [00:42:10] has to be the standards below which you refuse to fall. And that’s the [00:42:15] same thing as you just said. It’s what are the standards below which you, you you can’t operate [00:42:20] and like rubber. No rubber dam for that endo with a rusty keychain. [00:42:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Richard Porter: I couldn’t do it. I just couldn’t do it. That wouldn’t be for me. And [00:42:30] an expert is someone who is is not willing to do that. And is then [00:42:35] socratically the eternal student because being an expert has [00:42:40] to you. I think you have to say, yeah, but I could be better. And I think that’s [00:42:45] that sense of dissatisfaction you should always have. Because [00:42:50] if you’ve got that sense of dissatisfaction when you’re being honest, like, if anyone’s ever [00:42:55] says to me, I did the perfect Dental case.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Richard Porter: I did it perfectly. [00:43:00] I know I’m talking to a psychopath or a liar.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Richard Porter: Because you’ve never [00:43:05] done it perfect. There’s always something, however trivial or small it might be. And [00:43:10] so we can always learn. And that that’s staying humble staying curious. So I think part of [00:43:15] being an expert is you still think yeah, but I’ll be better. You think in 200 years, mate. How are they going [00:43:20] to. They’re going to say right to do an implant. You get this steel spike and [00:43:25] you load it up with cocaine, and you shove it in their face and you [00:43:30] know, there’ll be a way of anaesthetising patients then, which will be a button you press on your phone or you know [00:43:35] something. And they’re going to. So so you’ve got to be humble as well.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:43:40] on that subject of, you know, you’re forced to be at the tip of the spear in so many different [00:43:45] areas, insomuch as when a delegate asks you a question. By [00:43:50] the way, some of the people I respect the most say, I don’t know more [00:43:55] than you think they would. Yeah, but you’re going to have to stay on top of what’s [00:44:00] going on. And what’s the latest thing? Yeah, I think there’s a tension [00:44:05] in, if you are the tip of the spear in anything and, you know, I’m sure there’s some, [00:44:10] some researcher somewhere right at the tip of the spear on one specific subject, you [00:44:15] have to try stuff out. You do and then [00:44:20] trying stuff out. The very nature of that, the, the, the definition of that is sometimes [00:44:25] that thing’s going to fail. Yeah. And it’s incumbent on you as an expert [00:44:30] to try stuff out, rather than someone who’s not an expert to try stuff out. Yeah, yeah yeah, [00:44:35] yeah. But it’s attention. It’s attention and I see attention. Also, I’d [00:44:40] really like your answer to this one because I’m struggling with this one myself.

Richard Porter: I hope I can help.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:44:45] know, around those words that you said, the difference in contentment and progress on [00:44:50] a string. Why are those two things on a string? And we understand the reasons why [00:44:55] they are right. But is it possible to live being content and continuing to progress [00:45:00] at the same time, because they seem in opposition with each other?

Richard Porter: Yeah, I you know, I mean, [00:45:05] that’s a beautiful philosophical question. And, you know, the Buddha said life is dissatisfaction or life is [00:45:10] discomfort, and the word is actually is dukkha. And it actually means the [00:45:15] sense of tension that as soon as you’ve achieved something and you think, well, I’ve done that job [00:45:20] really, really well, and I do have a sense of fulfilment, it’s now what next? You’ve built [00:45:25] an enlightened smile on a podcast unit. Now what? Payman. You know, because what? This is it forever. [00:45:30] And there’s always this sense of I can do more and I can become more. And so I think [00:45:35] that what you’re talking about there really is, is people, you know, let’s take a dentist [00:45:40] who says, I want to be successful. And I think there’s two layers to this. [00:45:45] The first thing is it’s not about being successful because that’s your destination. And people I think level [00:45:50] one say it’s the journey. And I don’t think it is the journey either. I [00:45:55] don’t think it is the journey. I think it’s who you become to keep going on that journey and the sense [00:46:00] of growth inside your mind as you progress along your journey. That’s why you [00:46:05] and I move the goalposts, because here’s our destination and we want to move towards it, and we love moving towards [00:46:10] it. But as soon as we get there, we’re going to have that intense dissatisfaction. You know, I came, I saw, [00:46:15] I conquered, and then Alexander cried because there was no worlds left to conquer. And so as we get [00:46:20] close, you move the goalposts so you and I can keep becoming. And that comes down [00:46:25] to feelings, because you become someone new. As Payman becomes more and his [00:46:30] social skills become more and you become more of a wonderful parent interviewer, whatever you do, [00:46:35] that sense of becoming is what makes life feel completely fulfilling. I [00:46:40] think if you sit back and say, right, I’m content. That, to me is [00:46:45] Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World. It’s like hiding from from that progress [00:46:50] or the fear of failure overwhelming you so you become apathetic. You know, there are philosophers. [00:46:55]

Payman Langroudi: So you’re saying contentment shouldn’t be the goal?

Richard Porter: I think I.

Payman Langroudi: Think.

Richard Porter: No, contentment, [00:47:00] I think, is it’s going to be part of your life, but don’t expect to be [00:47:05] content forever. And you know, what are you going to do? Sit on a sofa and watch.

Payman Langroudi: It all so transient like pleasure [00:47:10] is.

Richard Porter: Yeah, yeah, I mean pleasures.

Payman Langroudi: Totally.

Richard Porter: 12 minutes and it’s gone, [00:47:15] isn’t it? You know, whereas misery, you can be happy. Like I’m enjoying your conversation. [00:47:20] And when we leave here, I’ll have a sense of satisfaction. And by the time I get home and [00:47:25] after travelling on the tube it will start to wane. If you were a patient complaining of [00:47:30] me, I can worry about that for weeks. And that’s that negative emotion thing. So I think you should be content. I want people [00:47:35] to be content. Martin Seligman’s work on this is incredible.

Payman Langroudi: Martin.

Richard Porter: Martin Seligman, [00:47:40] so he’s a the the godfather of positive psychology. And [00:47:45] he would talk about positive psychology really in three areas, which is pleasure, joy [00:47:50] and satisfaction or fulfilment, which probably leads to.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got to read this. [00:47:55]

Richard Porter: Yeah. For me he’s he has written his latest book is [00:48:00] fabulous. Um, I think it’s just called The Good Life. And that might be his original, but. So [00:48:05] pleasure is used to be the hardest to achieve because [00:48:10] you really had to earn things to bring you pleasure. Like even a hundred years ago, 200 years ago, pleasure [00:48:15] was incredibly rare. Did you have a warm shower this morning? [00:48:20] Yep. I bet it felt good. Did you have a moment where you thought, oh, wow, this is so nice? [00:48:25] Yeah. And, you know, we should be grateful for that, but we take it for granted. And I wanted to connect with you. So [00:48:30] I just send you a text, and then I wonder what you’re doing. And we get. Pleasure is now abundant. The [00:48:35] other forms of joy. So connecting with someone else, connecting with your patients, connecting with [00:48:40] your family, creating value in their lives through your behaviour to [00:48:45] your patients, your family, your friends. That’s joy. That’s human to human. And that’s the big one [00:48:50] we really should concentrate on. And then fulfilment and satisfaction is [00:48:55] looking back and thinking, do you know what I was? I finished my career as a consultant [00:49:00] or whatever. I gave it the best I possibly could. I really helped thousands [00:49:05] of people.

Richard Porter: I didn’t save everyone, but I saved a lot of lives. I rehabbed a lot of people. [00:49:10] I think I did my job pretty well, that sense of fulfilment. So he would break it down into [00:49:15] those three. And joy and fulfilment are what make us have high self-esteem, [00:49:20] our or self-concept grows and we get that sense of the [00:49:25] value of my life is not determined by what I think it is, it’s how much I contribute to other people. That’s [00:49:30] all it is. And we get swamped by the pleasure, the pleasure [00:49:35] dome that’s everywhere around us now, you know, abundant calories. [00:49:40] Like, if I want some pleasure on the tube, I can go and buy a pack of hobnobs and eat them all. And [00:49:45] every single one is just impossibly delicious. You know, it’s a food like you couldn’t have dreamt of 200 [00:49:50] years ago. And it’s just a £50 pack of hobnobs. So? So I’m not saying [00:49:55] deny self pleasure, but revel in the joy and fulfilment. Yeah, do be content and [00:50:00] then accept that part of human nature is depending on your disposition. What [00:50:05] next? What next? What can I do next? Where’s my next contribution I think I think [00:50:10] it’s that. And I think that’s what makes it well put.

Payman Langroudi: That’s well put. Thanks. Yeah. [00:50:15] And my other question regarding New things that come out. Digital [00:50:20] new. New materials, new techniques. I mean, you can’t be the first to [00:50:25] jump on something like that. I guess, in your position. But you certainly can’t be the last. I mean, you’ve got [00:50:30] to be pretty an early adopter.

Richard Porter: You have you have got to be an early adopter. And [00:50:35] you, you do get you do have to sit on the cutting edge. So materials and equipment, you [00:50:40] know, I have good relationships with a lot of good companies and they will often bring them to my attention, [00:50:45] which I’m very, very grateful for. So in our new centre we [00:50:50] have a seven metre by three metre screen, and it’s a really high density LED [00:50:55] screen and I’ll be doing live prep through that. So there’s nowhere to hide. And so we’re speaking with [00:51:00] canon at the moment. And there’s a new camera, for example, on your subject that isn’t even released in Europe [00:51:05] yet called the C50. And that records [00:51:10] in true seven K. So it can come on the screen and they let me know that exists. So [00:51:15] I affiliate with a lot of companies and people I really, really trust on techniques. [00:51:20] I’ll be honest, I think you have to. It’s part of life is dissatisfaction. You have to accept everything you’re doing [00:51:25] is going to become obsolete. And the good news is social media. If people come up with a good technique. [00:51:30] I remember when mylar pull, you know, the mylar pool when the Mylapore first came out and I’d never seen [00:51:35] mylar pull before. I think I was a reg a specialist trainee. And looking at that and thinking, that’s amazing. And [00:51:40] I take it to other people and say, look, when people are doing this interproximal technique and there’ll [00:51:45] be two responses. Someone saying it’s rubbish, not interested. And other people who are the eternal students [00:51:50] saying they’re on to something, there’s something on that. So I think social media helps [00:51:55] with dissemination of new techniques. Definitely. And you just have to have a thick [00:52:00] enough or malleable enough ego to say everything I’m, [00:52:05] I know and I’m good at will be superseded by someone probably younger [00:52:10] and smarter than me in due course. Yeah, we just do the best you can.

Payman Langroudi: Add one [00:52:15] of the. One of the nicest things about being a teacher is sometimes that person is one of your students. You [00:52:20] know who who, who you know who’s now coming back and teaching you something.

Richard Porter: Couldn’t agree.

Payman Langroudi: More. It’s a [00:52:25] wonderful thing. Lewis Mackenzie used to tell me that that was the thing that made him the happiest. You [00:52:30] know, as a teacher.

Richard Porter: I’m going to do more philosophy on you. Payman. Do you mind? Sure. So imagine you’re here. [00:52:35] Yeah, well, imagine I’m here and I’m the teacher. And this is my student.

Payman Langroudi: Below.

Richard Porter: You. Yeah, [00:52:40] they’re below me. Yeah, yeah. And they come up here if my goal is to lock them there, and then they have the [00:52:45] same goal, then the same goal. Five generations as a species. We’ve gone backwards. [00:52:50] Yeah. My goal is here. And my this is my level. And my goal is to get you here. [00:52:55] And then your goal is the same. This is how we learn as a species. So the goal [00:53:00] of any teacher has to be that the students outgrow them. And I could show you WhatsApp [00:53:05] messages now of tens and tens and tens of our students or on on our app [00:53:10] who will come up and say, look, I’ve tried this thing, even if it’s something small. Like if you look [00:53:15] at the number one complaint dentists dental technicians have about Crown preps is [00:53:20] under preparation on the occlusal surface. So how do we eliminate that? We’ll [00:53:25] put that out there to a load of people. You know we’ve got 2500 alumni. How do you ensure [00:53:30] you don’t do this? We taught you techniques. Has anyone got other ideas? And they go, yeah, I do it like this, this, this and this. And you [00:53:35] think that’s brilliant? That’s brilliant. And that collective learning experience. You have to be humble enough [00:53:40] to say someone is going to do it better than me. There’ll be a new burr, a new technique, a [00:53:45] new system, a new augmented digital thing. Yeah, yeah. [00:53:50] Some overlay that shows when you’ve done it perfectly, it’s going to happen. You’ve got to enjoy it.

Payman Langroudi: Enjoy [00:53:55] the fact that things are changing. Yeah.

Richard Porter: And people can teach you. Yeah, yeah. You’ve got a responsibility. [00:54:00] But you’ve got you’ve got to enjoy the fact that if you’ve got 200 students every year, some [00:54:05] of them are going to say, I think I can do it better than you. Oh, I think I can. Do you mind [00:54:10] if I show you? And You’ve got to say if you can, you’re going to get nothing but gratitude of me. Nothing but gratitude. [00:54:15] One of one of the aspire philosophies is it’s much better that we have questions [00:54:20] we can’t answer than answers you can’t question. So you can question anything. And if you think [00:54:25] it’s not clear, the burden of understanding is on on me. It’s on us. But [00:54:30] equally, if you have a better technique, you’re going to get nothing but gratitude 100%. [00:54:35] Show us what you got. It’ll be awesome.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me. [00:54:40] Tell me about the evolution of how you met Raheel. And whose [00:54:45] idea was it to do a, like a training course or whatever? And how? How did [00:54:50] it start? And where? Where are you now?

Richard Porter: I will, I’ll, I’ll give you the brief version. [00:54:55] I’m sure he will see this. The the, um, the. So, [00:55:00] so I, uh, we first met when I was giving a talk at an event, [00:55:05] and they used to go to Centre Parcs a lot, and I was there.

Payman Langroudi: I have to give one of those. Yeah.

Richard Porter: And it was, you know, they had [00:55:10] they had a lot of sort of socialising going on. Yeah. And there was and I was doing day two. So there [00:55:15] was a lot of.

Payman Langroudi: Hangover.

Richard Porter: Hangover from the socialising. And he was very lucid. Uh, [00:55:20] you know wouldn’t drink alcohol. And I gave a talk on some [00:55:25] of the things you and I talked about earlier on this morning. I was like, does anyone know how to really take an alginate [00:55:30] impression? Well, like a really good. Let’s do something very, very simple. And I said, so I’m going [00:55:35] to give you a ten minute talk on how to take a really good alginate impression. And he woke [00:55:40] a couple of people up and said, this guy knows what he’s talking about. He’s making it crystal clear. So I then [00:55:45] I’d become quite frustrated with ineffective education at that stage. And I’d [00:55:50] seen I’d been at talks, which I’m sure you have. And you sit thinking, My God, I’m just learning nothing. [00:55:55] This is just either an advert or just ineffective learning. So I ran [00:56:00] a I hired Lundbeck, the London Dental Education Centre, and I ran a three day crown and bridge [00:56:05] course, and Raheel had to beg, steal and borrow money. Literally [00:56:10] not steal, but to come on the course. And he came on the course and he was the most determined delegate on the course. [00:56:15]

Richard Porter: And he and I got on very well. Um, [00:56:20] I have two sisters. He’s the brother I never had. And we got [00:56:25] on very, very well. And he was there’s one thing that I admire in someone is dogged [00:56:30] determination. And he has dogged determination. And he said, look, you, [00:56:35] you’ve you’re good at teaching, you’re good at this. I think we need to formalise this. And he’s just presented [00:56:40] ideas. And he was relentless in his pursuit of it. And I became [00:56:45] ever more full of admiration for his drive, his clarity, how [00:56:50] much structure he brings. So I’m inherently quite a disorganised person, and he is incredibly [00:56:55] well organised. And we met and we said, well, let’s see if we can make this work. [00:57:00] We had a lot of blowback, had loads of people saying like, postgraduate education doesn’t work, It won’t be. [00:57:05] And these are people who tried it and it hadn’t gone well. Um, protecting, you know, their own [00:57:10] psychological outcomes. And we thought we’d give it a go. And [00:57:15] so we launched our first course, and we had one group.

Payman Langroudi: Was it a year course from [00:57:20] the get go?

Richard Porter: It was. It was a 12 day course. And we hired hotel rooms [00:57:25] and we hired Lundak. And we we managed to make that work with a small [00:57:30] group.

Payman Langroudi: The first cohort.

Richard Porter: First cohort, year one. Yeah, that’s 15 years ago. Yeah. [00:57:35] Um, and just word of mouth grew it from there. Um, [00:57:40] and, um, so we, we were [00:57:45] always fairly good at saying, what can we do better? And [00:57:50] we ask for honest feedback. And if someone writes feedback and they’re being honest with [00:57:55] you, it’s a compliment. Even if they’re criticising you. Criticism from someone who cares about [00:58:00] you as a compliment. And we would act on that. And then we’d we would have the philosophy [00:58:05] that if we give a presentation and there are questions, we haven’t given the presentation well enough, we [00:58:10] should always be self-critical and try and say if there are questions which people can [00:58:15] ask questions till midnight with us if they want, but that [00:58:20] means we haven’t landed the important message well enough. So we try to evolve [00:58:25] the course and improve the course every time.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but it went I mean, from that first cohort, [00:58:30] did you then the second year have two?

Richard Porter: We did. Yeah, we had two [00:58:35] groups. And then we had people complaining, saying, I tried to get into the groups and I didn’t. And so [00:58:40] we said, well, let’s go to three. And we did a couple of years with three groups. [00:58:45] And then um, this at that stage, it meant I had to change my consultant [00:58:50] contract.

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Richard Porter: Because I didn’t have time. And so I said, we can go to Group [00:58:55] four.

Payman Langroudi: So I guess around that point and you probably thought, we’ve really got something [00:59:00] here, like, like, you know, you’re changing your your career. Yeah.

Richard Porter: Because you’ve got [00:59:05] to have the self doubt as well.

Payman Langroudi: Well yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Richard Porter: You know so so you asked earlier on about um [00:59:10] confidence. Confidence is is a combination of two things. It’s calmness and expectation of a positive [00:59:15] outcome. So have the calmness. But I always wanted to be assured of the positive outcome. [00:59:20] And you never really are. And you know, there’s a million courses out there now. So it’s [00:59:25] it’s a fierce environment. But but yes, I started to think this is [00:59:30] we’re gaining traction here. We’re getting more support from big [00:59:35] companies. People are starting to resonate with us, and our delegates are starting [00:59:40] to say, when’s your next course? Are you going to do something with endodontics? Are you going to do something [00:59:45] on communication? And it was them lobbying us that let us build the various [00:59:50] other facets outside. Just the first course was just the aesthetic restorative course. And then we during [00:59:55] that course, for example, we had delegates who say, I’ve had a complaint. We’d have a Q&A [01:00:00] session at the end of the day, and it’s this. And we would give a response and they would start recording [01:00:05] my responses and writing it down. And we said, do you want more on communication? And [01:00:10] they said, yes. And we started building those courses and it just evolved from there.

Payman Langroudi: And so [01:00:15] what are the headlines now like? How many people do you train a year. And so we have how many how [01:00:20] many courses are there. All of that.

Richard Porter: So it’s uh, so we have we have our [01:00:25] aesthetic restorative course. Uh, we have an endodontic course, we have a [01:00:30] removable pros course, which Farhan teaches. Um, we have uh, uh, [01:00:35] I’ll get this Janjua. Yeah. And he’s a very much [01:00:40] nicer person than me. Yeah, he’s a wonderful human being. And he, um.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:00:45] teach the other bits? The endo.

Richard Porter: I teach endo and aesthetic restorative. We have a spa conversations, [01:00:50] which is pure communication for dentists. Oh, really? Um, we have, [01:00:55] um, an implant course. So we teach a lot [01:01:00] of implants. Um, and we have an occlusion course. [01:01:05] Um, I’m trying to make sure I don’t miss anything.

Payman Langroudi: Each of these are multi-day. [01:01:10]

Richard Porter: Uh, well, occlusion is two days. Implant communication is two days. That’s 20 days over [01:01:15] two years.

Payman Langroudi: 20 days over two years.

Richard Porter: Over two years.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Richard Porter: Implants. [01:01:20] You know, it’s different teaching on implants. Just because if we said it’s I’m a different teacher on implants [01:01:25] because the delegates on that when they go out their risk of litigation [01:01:30] isn’t higher. But the values involved in implant based litigation, the numbers [01:01:35] in the cases are higher. And I need to make sure these people are safe and happy. So so but yeah, [01:01:40] those are our courses. We run non Dental courses because I study personality psychology now. So [01:01:45] we run a lot of personal development.

Payman Langroudi: And so first on the implant one are you then their mentor going [01:01:50] forward.

Richard Porter: Yeah. So we have a faculty team. So I’m involved in that. But [01:01:55] for Hans, involved in that, we have other teachers and our faculty team mentor [01:02:00] them on site. We have a lot of ongoing support, and the way we structure it is [01:02:05] they get so much clinical hands on with us that the mentoring is kind of with them. [01:02:10] It’s very individual because what I don’t want is someone who lives in a remote [01:02:15] part of the country, who hasn’t got a mentor to think, well, I can’t do that. And unless I relocate [01:02:20] my family, other people, so I can think of someone off the top of my head who’s working [01:02:25] in a big implant practice with experienced mentors left, right and centre. [01:02:30] And so their educational delivery is slightly different. That’s [01:02:35] why I never thought one size fits all. It doesn’t. You’ve got to tailor the course slightly [01:02:40] to people’s individual needs. And we’ve got people on there who’ve placed 100 implants, signed up for an implant course. And you’ve [01:02:45] got other people who say, I haven’t taken a tooth out in six years, you know. So they need very different [01:02:50] things.

Payman Langroudi: So look, the as you said, the sort of market for education [01:02:55] is gigantic now. I mean, we have real problems with staff, like [01:03:00] many events going on at the same time. We can’t go to everything at the same time. [01:03:05] There’s so much going on all the time in different places. Yeah. Um, do you [01:03:10] get that annoying call that I get sometimes where the guy could sell it to me? I’m considering [01:03:15] you and Chris or and Monica and and elevate. Sell me on [01:03:20] you.

Richard Porter: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So do you get that? Yeah.

Richard Porter: I mean, we.

Payman Langroudi: Definitely.

Richard Porter: I we get that a lot. We get [01:03:25] a lot of people saying I’m not sure what to do next.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Richard Porter: Yeah. And my response always be, well, listen I can tell you [01:03:30] what we can what we can offer. Yeah. But I want you to make the right choice for you. And [01:03:35] out of all the names you’ve mentioned there, you know, we respect all these other people. So I will never badmouth another [01:03:40] course. I’ll never speak ill of another course. Um, and I think [01:03:45] a lot of those delegates need to find what fits with them best. I’ll be [01:03:50] honest, Payman, once you speak to someone, I think they judge you on how connected they are with you as a teacher. [01:03:55] So if you can give them that and they can connect with you. If somebody rings up [01:04:00] and says, I’m interested and they’re sent a brochure, you know, if people [01:04:05] can’t judge you on feelings, they’ll judge you on price and convenience. Whereas if you can create feelings [01:04:10] in people and they connect with you and they feel that connection, then I think [01:04:15] they make decisions on that. But yeah, there are a lot of courses out there, but it’s good. You know, competition [01:04:20] drives innovation.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And also a lot better than back in the day. I remember graduating [01:04:25] in 96 and looking for a cosmetic [01:04:30] course was. Yeah. And basically [01:04:35] it was one. There was one, there was one. There was a guy he used to sort of test stuff. Adapt. [01:04:40] Do you remember him? Uh.

Richard Porter: I remember do you remember Larry Rosenthal used to come to [01:04:45] the UK a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. So I went to Larry’s. Oh. Did you? But there was, There was one guy. There was one UK [01:04:50] based guy who did a course. It was. It was called Aesthetic Dentistry and Professional [01:04:55] Testing. Okay. And he used to test stuff and he used to have a course. That was it. That was the choice. [01:05:00] Those two things. Yeah. You know, so it was nice that there’s a lot of choice. Um, [01:05:05] at the same time, you think that a lot of times people are having to do these courses [01:05:10] to just get their own CVS going so that they can move to [01:05:15] private, um, as quickly as possible? You know, there’s a sort of strange feeling from [01:05:20] younger dentists. None of them want to do NHS anymore. Right.

Richard Porter: I think that’s true. I do. Increasingly [01:05:25] so. I mean, I hope it doesn’t die entirely, but I think that’s probably true.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:05:30] maybe one of the main drivers, isn’t it?

Richard Porter: Of it is.

Payman Langroudi: Doing so much education.

Richard Porter: Now. And, you know, if [01:05:35] I came here with ten CVS, I could open up on my laptop now and show them all to you. They’re all there’s [01:05:40] there’s a uniformity to it. You know, I did an audit on Bitewings and I am a kind, compassionate, driven dentist [01:05:45] who likes patient care the forefront. You know, how do you stand out? And so I [01:05:50] think some form of post-grad sign off has [01:05:55] become part of a standard, almost for the type of practice that you [01:06:00] and I might want to choose to work in if we were young associates looking for it. Yeah, I think that’s probably true. [01:06:05] I think it is. And I think it’s good that there’s choice. Um, I think, [01:06:10] you know, it does drive innovation. It drives it gives people the options for what’s most convenient [01:06:15] for them, where they get the best connection. And I think you’re right that I [01:06:20] don’t I don’t know. I mean, the NHS has a place, but it’s [01:06:25] just become such a difficult employer. Yeah. And it’s so anonymous. [01:06:30] Whereas at least if you come and work in my private practice, I’m accountable [01:06:35] to you on some level. Like if you’re my.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just Richard. I think luckily [01:06:40] I can say things like this because I haven’t got like a anything to worry about [01:06:45] in this respect. Right.

Richard Porter: Lucky you.

Payman Langroudi: But yeah, not everyone can can say what I’m [01:06:50] about to say. Yeah. Overall, the NHS in medicine, I think is a blessing. It’s [01:06:55] a blessing that anyone could get ill and end up being taken care of. [01:07:00] Some. Some of the best medicine in the world.

Richard Porter: I agree.

Payman Langroudi: As you said, a lot of goodwill involved [01:07:05] in that. Huge. But overall the net net, I would say it’s a massive positive thing [01:07:10] about Britain. And it was correct that it was during the Olympics. They pushed [01:07:15] some beds around and said the NHS, it was, it was correct. Yeah. Intensity. I don’t think it’s [01:07:20] the same. I do not think it’s the same thing.

Richard Porter: They’re fundamentally different things. And politicians get away with [01:07:25] conflating dentistry in the NHS. So you don’t pay when you go to your GP. [01:07:30] If you say I’ve got a chest infection, could I see my GP and they see you or you go to A&E, they don’t say you’ve got [01:07:35] to pay. Even on an NHS contract at the dentist, unless you’re exempt, you’re paying. [01:07:40] There’s fundamentally a difference.

Payman Langroudi: But you know, if if your grandmother, [01:07:45] God forbid, gets cancer, you know, the NHS will look after her. Yeah. The equivalent [01:07:50] of that in dentistry should be if your grandmother, God forbid, gets massive toothache, the [01:07:55] NHS will look after you. That should be the equivalent.

Richard Porter: Yes it.

Payman Langroudi: Should. Yeah. The minimum [01:08:00] standard should be around emergencies and so forth. Yeah. Because as [01:08:05] much as it does some good in the other area, I think it [01:08:10] does just as much harm as well, you know, in, in restorative dentistry, [01:08:15] if the dentist hasn’t got time to do the job right. Yeah. You know, we know even [01:08:20] quite meticulous dentistry fails. So I.

Richard Porter: I [01:08:25] think it’s true. You know, I yeah, I think you’re touching on a number of really interesting subjects there, I really do. There’s, [01:08:30] there’s perception of longevity. So if you have a knee replacement and you go running marathons, you [01:08:35] know your knees are going to fail after 2 or 3 years. You have a crown and you’re parafunctional and [01:08:40] it falls off. There’s grounds. You know, it’s it’s how dentistry is perceived from the top down and [01:08:45] bottom up by the public, by the profession and by politicians as a political tool. That’s all it is. [01:08:50] Yeah, I think the NHS is primarily a political tool. I agree with you entirely, though. I think [01:08:55] the NHS, if I step outside of your office today and break a leg, I don’t need to give a credit [01:09:00] card for the ambulance and and an orthopaedic surgeon will fix my leg and [01:09:05] God bless that person. And nurses will look after me and, you know, be kind to you and [01:09:10] it is a blessing. I agree with you.

Payman Langroudi: Imagine the number of people in the US or whatever who aren’t going to see [01:09:15] their doctor about a particular niggle, because just to say hello to a doctor [01:09:20] is so expensive and and they don’t have insurance. You know, I think it’s 65 million Americans don’t [01:09:25] have insurance. Yeah. And some guy’s got throat ache that might be some cancer. [01:09:30]

Richard Porter: Can’t swallow.

Payman Langroudi: But isn’t going to see anyone because he thinks hopefully he’ll get better by itself. You know.

Richard Porter: Yeah. My insurance [01:09:35] is.

Payman Langroudi: You know we don’t have that problem in here. No. But in dentistry, [01:09:40] if, you know, my grandmother had toothache in America, I think I’d be happier for her [01:09:45] than if she has toothache here. Yeah, I see a big difference.

Richard Porter: The service provision of it. Yeah, [01:09:50] I agree with that. I think you’re right. I think you’re I think it’s a very insightful way of looking at it. And [01:09:55] so do you think that means the public then perceive they need to go more privately like they just. [01:10:00] Yeah. Has that changed?

Payman Langroudi: It’s very good for private dentistry in.

Richard Porter: That.

Payman Langroudi: Sense. In that sense. Right.

Richard Porter: But then [01:10:05] I. So I don’t believe that happens by chance. I think that is conspiracy theorist. [01:10:10] I am a conspiracy theorist. Listen, the NHS, I believe the [01:10:15] primary function of the NHS to you and me is healthcare. But let me make my case. [01:10:20] If the primary function of the NHS, NHS is healthcare, if [01:10:25] you look at the number one reason children are admitted to hospital is through an entirely preventable disease. So that’s fulminant [01:10:30] failure at about around 50% of people. So so the number one killer of [01:10:35] people in the world, the four big killers in the world And number one by a mile is cardiovascular disease, then dementia, cancer [01:10:40] and metabolic syndrome. And for men, particularly cardiovascular disease, it’s probably what will [01:10:45] hasten our demise. 50% of people presenting their first sign [01:10:50] or symptom of cardiovascular disease is death. That’s their presenting symptom. [01:10:55] Don’t tell me you’re into preventative medicine. If you allow 50% of the biggest killer to [01:11:00] be that. So why? So if the NHS is into preventative [01:11:05] medicine, then none of that is happening. Look at the children with decay. Look at that. And [01:11:10] I can pick a million other diseases from that point of view. Then you look at the cost of the NHS, which is over [01:11:15] £360 million a day to fund. Now that may be money [01:11:20] well spent, but a lot is wasted. So this, this sort of utopian idea of how [01:11:25] it should be for medicine, how it should be for dentistry is muddied by the [01:11:30] point I’m trying to make, which is, I believe that you and me as patients [01:11:35] and consumers and providers. The NHS is a healthcare service. I [01:11:40] think for politicians on both sides of the House or however many sides of the House, it’s [01:11:45] a political tool. I have seen 24 hours to save the NHS through every political party [01:11:50] since I was a child.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, well, you could be both things could be true at the same time, though. [01:11:55] You know, like.

Richard Porter: Oh yeah. Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Because it’s such an emotive subject in the UK that it ends up being a political [01:12:00] subject. Um, and, you know, you’ve got the right wing who are constantly being blamed [01:12:05] for trying to turn it private, and then you’ve got the left wing who waste too much. The reality, though, is [01:12:10] financially we’re spending more on it than ever before.

Richard Porter: Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: As even [01:12:15] as a proportion of I mean, it’s more it’s a bigger dollar number and a bigger proportion number [01:12:20] than we’ve ever spent before. And yet it’s on its knees. Yeah. So so the answer, [01:12:25] you know, I think there’s a lot of conversations in politics now around what you’re saying that actually changing [01:12:30] to a true preventative model using AI and data to, you know, that’s [01:12:35] the sort of the headline, right?

Richard Porter: Um, I’m very into preventative health. [01:12:40] We, I try and bring a lot of that to people’s lives. And the psychology part of it is [01:12:45] the emotional aspect of that, you know, and people will be familiar with the work like Outlived by Peter Attia. And, you [01:12:50] know, there’s lots of great authors out there, great functional, integrative preventative medicine experts. [01:12:55] And you can look at all of that. So we I look at it from the point of view of your four big killers, but then you [01:13:00] have your six angels of, of life, which is, you know, your big ones are [01:13:05] sleep, nutrition, exercise. And if we’re ever trying to outside of dentistry, but with [01:13:10] our delegates or anyone involved, um, with our faculty to try and help them enhance their [01:13:15] health, is those three big which sleep, exercise, nutrition, just [01:13:20] energy balance. But then building on to that, there’s circadian biology. [01:13:25] I’m a big believer in light. Your light environment really makes a difference. Your emotional wellbeing and [01:13:30] then medications and supplementation. And, um, I mean, we run I run lecture [01:13:35] courses on this and, uh, I, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Are you a longevity expert?

Richard Porter: I’m [01:13:40] not an expert at anything, but I am a longevity.

Payman Langroudi: Enthusiast.

Richard Porter: Passionate [01:13:45] acolyte. I’ll give you an example. Yeah. So and [01:13:50] it’s a cliched example, but the three big deficiencies we have as a [01:13:55] population in the UK with racial disparity vitamin [01:14:00] D, magnesium and omega three. And a lot of your listeners will be very familiar with that. [01:14:05] So there is no sunlight containing UVB in the UK right [01:14:10] now until like late March. And it stopped a couple of weeks ago. So you’re vitamin [01:14:15] D deficient unless you manage that or live a lifestyle according to that. [01:14:20] Now, people who are vitamin D deficient, you know, we send delegates for blood testing, to be honest, if [01:14:25] they really get into this and we’ll look at them. And I was writing to a guy is one [01:14:30] of our delegates yesterday. And I said to him, what do I have to say? Because he sent me his vitamin D and he says, [01:14:35] wow, I’m so severely deficient. Is this accounting for my symptoms? And I said, how many times have I told you [01:14:40] he’s a friend, you know, so I can speak to him like that? And I’m very into people living an [01:14:45] optimised life.

Payman Langroudi: I guess you supplement with vitamin D.

Richard Porter: So there is nuance to it. Yes. [01:14:50] Yeah. And if you’re going to supplement you, the point I’m trying to make is if you’ve got darker skin, [01:14:55] you’re far more at risk of vitamin D deficiency. Deficiency. Far, far more.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But what I was [01:15:00] going to, you know, my kids go to French school. Okay. The French take two vitamin tablets [01:15:05] a year.

Richard Porter: Okay?

Payman Langroudi: And it’s a super all year. Yeah. All year, every every year. So it’s [01:15:10] a super high dose vitamin D. Yeah. It’s delicious actually. Yeah. It’s beautiful.

Richard Porter: It’s [01:15:15] so easy to do.

Payman Langroudi: So it makes it a lot easier right.

Richard Porter: So I do supplement vitamin D. Yeah. But you’re going [01:15:20] to supplement with vitamin D if we’re giving you it has to be with K2. And it can’t be activated if you take it orally. [01:15:25] It’s not through your skin unless you’ve got adequate magnesium and most people are deficient in magnesium as well. [01:15:30] And then to absorb that you need some fat in you. So how you take it.

Payman Langroudi: Has a type of magnesium as well. [01:15:35]

Richard Porter: Anything except oxide but magnesium bisglycinate, magnesium citrate. [01:15:40] Any of those things will work very, very well. From. Yeah. So I’m very into this side of it. [01:15:45]

Payman Langroudi: And the omega three, is there a nuance there?

Richard Porter: Uh, there’s nuance in that. [01:15:50] Most omega three supplements you really need omega three. So if you’re deficient in omega [01:15:55] three in terms of all cause mortality, it’s comparable with smoking 10 to 20 cigarettes a day. [01:16:00] Yeah. If you look at the Framingham Heart Study and it compares these deficiencies and all cause [01:16:05] mortality. Most supplements have rancid oil. It [01:16:10] won’t make you ill, but it’s not effective. So the fish oil and, uh, [01:16:15] is rancid. So you really need there’s believe it or not, Payman, there is an international fish oil [01:16:20] standards group, IFAs, and rank them for you. So if you’re really into [01:16:25] visuals, you can look at a global ranking and you obviously want high potency, low rancidity. [01:16:30] And then you can take a very effective omega three. I would have bought you some if I’d known. I think I [01:16:35] know where you live now, so I’m going to come back.

Payman Langroudi: My friend Dan Dan Murray, um, he’s got [01:16:40] a company called Heights. Okay. And he’s very much into apparently very good [01:16:45] for your brain.

Richard Porter: Very good for brain health.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, he was talking about the type of fish [01:16:50] oil is the key point.

Richard Porter: Yeah. I don’t know if you talk about that. I have a very particular brand I’m very into. So [01:16:55] the best brand I’ve come across is Nordic Naturals. They do halal version for people who want [01:17:00] that as well. And it’s. But Nordic Naturals is just a really, really high quality omega [01:17:05] three brand. They’re very good and they do kids versions as well.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll look that up.

Richard Porter: Yeah, yeah, I would have brought you [01:17:10] some.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll find it. Let’s get on to darker part. Okay.

Richard Porter: I’m ready.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:17:15] around mistakes.

Richard Porter: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Clinical errors.

Richard Porter: Dan that.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:17:20] comes to mind if I say what would have been some of your biggest clinical [01:17:25] errors?

Richard Porter: Biggest clinical error I’ve made, um, is taking on patients who [01:17:30] was impossible to please. Um, and if you speak to I will talk [01:17:35] about actual clinical errors. Um. First of all, I think it’s [01:17:40] inevitable. I think if you put in a million implants or you do 20,000 endos, you’re going to [01:17:45] have a clinical error, you’re going to have an adverse outcome. And I have had [01:17:50] adverse outcomes. But if I look at anyone who’s in a regretful situation, [01:17:55] a delegate, an associate, whomever, I will say to them, did you know this patient was [01:18:00] troubled before you took them on? And they said, yes, I did. So patient selection. And [01:18:05] I’m going to qualify that with patient rejection. Not enforcing your boundaries, [01:18:10] I think is one of the most underrated and important skills we can teach any dentist [01:18:15] in 1978. There’s a paper by a guy called Groves in the New [01:18:20] England Journal of Medicine, and he wrote How to Understand and Deal with [01:18:25] Hateful Patients. And he didn’t have any psychological classifications. We [01:18:30] now know the personality characteristics to look for how to detect them. He didn’t know them, but he came up with this [01:18:35] subject and have been medical publications on that subject many, many, every [01:18:40] year since 1978. There’s none in dentistry, almost none. Whereas [01:18:45] patient personality is the biggest determinant in outcome in challenging cases. So the biggest [01:18:50] mistake I’ve ever made is having I. It’s not a mistake to have compassion, [01:18:55] but if you’ve got high ish compassion and you want to help people, difficult [01:19:00] people can sneak through the net.

Richard Porter: So if you ask a group of people what percentage of the [01:19:05] British population are psychopathic diagnosed, they don’t know. But it’s like 1 in [01:19:10] 50 people. It’s 1 in 50 to 1 or 1 in hundred. If you look at surgeons, it goes up to about 8%. [01:19:15] In prison it’s 20%. So 1 in 5, you know, it’s these are big numbers and [01:19:20] there’s narcissism and Machiavellianism and part of what we call the dark triad of personalities [01:19:25] from a clinical point of view. I have [01:19:30] done everything from so I have seen wrong site surgery. I’m going to touch [01:19:35] wood if you don’t mind. I’ve never done wrong site surgery, which is for dentists taking out the wrong tooth, [01:19:40] but I have seen the wrong ovary removed and I’ve seen the wrong kidney [01:19:45] operated on and things like that. And the fourth leading cause of death in the world is medical [01:19:50] error. Mhm. Um, so so these things happen. I’ve seen prescription [01:19:55] errors. I’ve seen someone prescribed 30g of paracetamol for [01:20:00] post op pain and had to go to that patient’s house. Not, not me to [01:20:05] stop that happening. Um, the worst clinical thing I’ve ever done, I [01:20:10] Payman I think it ranges everything from putting an implant in and thinking it’s perfect [01:20:15] and looking at it, and they’re all parallel. And then this one’s got a wonk on it. And you think, how, how, [01:20:20] how, how did I do that? From looking at your post op radiograph [01:20:25] on an endo, I mean these aren’t common things and I can remember them.

Richard Porter: So yeah I think you’ll [01:20:30] beat yourself up forever thinking oh this endo is absolutely going to be brilliant. And there’s a huge hook. And [01:20:35] I’ve been instrumenting around this apex getting around here. And you look at it and your observations like that and [01:20:40] you think what would I do differently. You know, I will tell you the worst one. [01:20:45] Not many people know this Payman you’ve got secret agent skills. [01:20:50] I was I was a max show and a guy who’d come in, who’d been glassed, and it [01:20:55] was probably two in the morning. There’s my excuse. And I spent all the time getting this glass out of his lip. [01:21:00] And I took you take a soft tissue x ray, and his lip was, like, full thickness. And I got all the glass out, [01:21:05] and it had taken me hours and hours and hours, and I checked it, and I closed it back up and [01:21:10] it was fine. And he came in about a week later to the Max unit, and he was like, I can feel the sharp thing in here. And [01:21:15] I’d I sewed a bit of glass inside his his lip, so we had to open him back up and things like that. [01:21:20] And I remember thinking, if you go back and do that again, would I do it any differently? And I don’t know if [01:21:25] I would, I, you know, I’m not trying to.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve, I’ve been I’ve done that job [01:21:30] and it’s terrible. It’s horrible because in Cardiff you can imagine the rugby [01:21:35] games. Yeah. England, Wales don’t go. There was a lot of that [01:21:40] going on.

Richard Porter: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Not not not the Wales Scotland Scotland match. No, no. The England [01:21:45] Wales.

Richard Porter: Hostility to England fans in Cardiff is very real.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um and and [01:21:50] you know, 3 a.m. and you’re not in your normal environment. You’re [01:21:55] a dentist at the end of the day and you just become a dentist. Yeah. [01:22:00] Yeah. As well. Yeah.

Richard Porter: Um, and you’ve got to get a bed manager and you’ve got.

Payman Langroudi: To.

Richard Porter: Take IVs [01:22:05] and you’re like, I’ve never done that in my life.

Payman Langroudi: It bloody well makes a man of you doing that job.

Richard Porter: If you. It’s [01:22:10] what doesn’t kill you might make you stronger. Yeah. So I made mistakes. I’m not very good when I’m tired Payman either past 8:00 [01:22:15] at night, I’m basically useless to everything.

Payman Langroudi: What about a Dental one? Like, did you do a lot? [01:22:20] I’m not even looking for one occasion. Uh, is there [01:22:25] a treatment modality that you are very keen on? And then over the years realised [01:22:30] that was incorrect? It’s happening all the time. You’re tweaking all the time. Right. But there’s something [01:22:35] come to mind when I say that. I mean, in my world, like classically ten veneers, Rosenthal style. You [01:22:40] know, even in my short career, I saw some ugly staining, you [01:22:45] know? Yeah, that I thought to myself, I shouldn’t have done that or I did that wrong.

Richard Porter: I think it’s I think [01:22:50] that’s a tight line to walk between. You know, it’s a very good point and it might not it might sound a bit [01:22:55] of a bland answer, but, um, he won’t mind me mentioning it, but Martin Keller was one of my consultants, and he [01:23:00] was like, if you pick up a drill, you know, you you should do everything Adhesively don’t drill the teeth, don’t [01:23:05] drill the teeth. And you do get influenced down that way. And I was certainly influenced that way. [01:23:10] And then you start doing prose where you’ve got to go in direct. You can’t do it all with composite. [01:23:15] You’re going indirect and you’re being so minimal. And I now teach [01:23:20] people, if you’re going to prep a tooth, don’t prep it minimally, prep it properly. [01:23:25] And that might mean one and a half miles off the occlusal surface. So prep one and a half [01:23:30] miles and people you know. So I, I have changed in that regard in [01:23:35] that I was extremely minimal. And if someone said you need 1.5 I would speak to [01:23:40] the technician. Can you get away with like 0.9. And they’re like, well, really not. And so you give them, you know, [01:23:45] 0.91 not that you can prep that accurately, but you know what I mean? I was too minimal. [01:23:50]

Richard Porter: And actually I believed that prepping a tooth. Let [01:23:55] me give you this analogy I use prepping a tooth would kill it. Like [01:24:00] if you prep a tooth, it’s going to kill it. So what’s a spec pulpotomy? [01:24:05] A pulpotomy is where there’s caries in a tooth that’s got an incomplete root. And [01:24:10] what you do is you drill away the caries and then you drill Payman the pulp. And [01:24:15] the intention of drilling the pulp is to preserve the health of the pulp. So [01:24:20] don’t tell me the act of prepping a tooth is going to devitalise the tooth. [01:24:25] You can devitalise a tooth with excess heat and bacterial leakage. It’s those two things. [01:24:30] So actually, I’m very happy. So I have gone around in a circle on that and contradicted myself. I was [01:24:35] very minimalist. Now, if you’re going to prep a tooth and the technician says, I need 1.2, you’re going to get 1.2, I’ll use [01:24:40] a bur that’s 1.2 wide. We’ll measure it with whatever technique we’ll be. Ensure we get you [01:24:45] the enough space to put your ceramic in enough thickness to do the job it’s designed to do. I will do my job [01:24:50] properly, I’ll keep it cool, and I won’t let it get buggy and dirty and leaky. But [01:24:55] that is the key.

Payman Langroudi: So I think this of material, direct or indirect thickness [01:25:00] of material is so important. Minimum thickness for a long lasting restoration [01:25:05] is so key. And interestingly, I had this only, uh, three [01:25:10] days ago. Yeah, it could easily have been a composite. Yeah. Okay. But I’ve gone off composite. I’ve gone off. [01:25:15] We teach composite. Right. We’ve got a full composite hands on course.

Richard Porter: Yeah. You have? Yeah. Very good. [01:25:20]

Payman Langroudi: One. Yeah, but we we I personally have gone off it. Okay. Insomuch as [01:25:25] it’s so technique sensitive and even in the best hands. How [01:25:30] long is it going to last? As long as my porcelain. Only thing that I just spoke about. There’s no [01:25:35] way. There’s no way at all.

Richard Porter: No. A good bit of Emacs press.

Payman Langroudi: Done.

Richard Porter: Really well. It’s just. Yeah, I agree [01:25:40] with you. I think it’s a better product. And I think that’s very, very true. And yeah, it’s interesting. Your question [01:25:45] is really stimulating actually, because I’ve probably gone a bit more towards indirect [01:25:50] at the anterior as well. You know, I’ve done a million cases with composite build ups, Dahl concept, [01:25:55] etc. but I tend to, you know, if you really get to know the patient and I say, look, there’s these two approaches, [01:26:00] what’s important to you is what’s important to me. Like I need it to look amazing [01:26:05] And really, for I don’t want to come back for ten years. Can I get away with [01:26:10] this for ten years? And you do it in porcelain, you know, Emacs or whatever, some form of ceramic. [01:26:15] And they’re happy for a very, very long time. I agree with you.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, listen, I [01:26:20] don’t know how much exposure you’ve had to American dentistry. Um, but my, [01:26:25] my feeling on it is that they’re more drill happy than we are, right. In Europe. Call it. Um, [01:26:30] and I agree with that. And and tiffs, you know that a line bleach bond [01:26:35] was an absolutely important thing. An important thing, you know, compared [01:26:40] to what was going on before. Yeah, there’s no doubt about that. But now I [01:26:45] see a lot of line bleach veneer cases. Yeah. And you know, I used to think [01:26:50] that’s incorrect. Like why would you do that? Why wouldn’t you? But now I kind of get it. I do get why would.

Richard Porter: You think the [01:26:55] shift is. Do you think that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Well, it’s it’s composite and.

Richard Porter: Its failings.

Payman Langroudi: Failing composite. [01:27:00] Composite fails aesthetically. Not only you know, chips. Right. The [01:27:05] stains.

Richard Porter: And it’s never fully cured. Yeah. Like, you take composite and you cure it as much as you possibly, [01:27:10] possibly can. Still, 20% of that is uncured. Yeah. And that’s a liquid which would be displaced by the [01:27:15] liquids. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, we really do teach over curing and curing again and long, you know, two minutes per tooth. [01:27:20] But you’re right. You’re right. The reason we do that is because of what you said. Yeah. Um, polishes [01:27:25] a lot better, too when you do that. Um.

Richard Porter: Yeah, I like it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Richard Porter: Always teaching me, I love [01:27:30] that. It’s very good.

Payman Langroudi: I want to get from you. Um, since you said endo is [01:27:35] your favourite subject, is it?

Richard Porter: No.

Payman Langroudi: Psychology outside, like clinically. What’s your [01:27:40] favourite subject? What do you like doing?

Richard Porter: I it’s it’s implants and pros. Yeah. Implants [01:27:45] and pros.

Payman Langroudi: What is it about them like you said. Right. You know, it’s serious. Is it the sort of the [01:27:50] patient side? The Meccano side? The.

Richard Porter: Yeah, I love that. You know, I mean, you mentioned [01:27:55] materials. I love the fact that these things have been engineered so incredibly well. So if you look at a really [01:28:00] good implant brand, it’s been engineered and the precision is so, so good. You know, I’m at an implant [01:28:05] HQ tomorrow morning and I love their innovations. I love the fact that that’s quite competitive. [01:28:10] So they’re always trying to stay ahead. And then you you put this thing into someone’s skull. You do. You drill [01:28:15] a hole in their skull and you get that roughly in the right place if you can. And then you have these attachments. [01:28:20] Go on it and then you start taking scans and impressions of it and a dual registration [01:28:25] of it. And, and to us, you and I are really I love the paradox that you and I [01:28:30] are excited by that. And it’s like we’ve done this. The patient doesn’t care. They didn’t care. And [01:28:35] then they say, give me a mirror and give me a carrot.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Richard Porter: You know, and I love [01:28:40] that the ultimate acid test of all the things that are important to us are actually not [01:28:45] necessarily what’s important to them, that I just find part of the beautiful part of what we [01:28:50] do, and we get to enjoy our precision. It’s so precise, you know? I mean, let’s talk about another [01:28:55] mistake. I’ve taken hundreds of impressions of crowns and bridges. This is a good one, actually. And the [01:29:00] lab sends me a photo of my model and says, is this the impression you took? And you look at it go, oh [01:29:05] my God, I need to redo my impression. And I’ve learned that the hard way. With implants, you [01:29:10] don’t have that nearly as much, because the precision is built into the system in terms of [01:29:15] an internal locking mechanism inside your implant. So you’ve still got to take a good impression, but it’s a different level [01:29:20] of precision, different parameter you’re looking for. So I love that. [01:29:25] I love the fact that we get to do this. And you can give someone a whole smile back.

Payman Langroudi: Change their lives, [01:29:30] right?

Richard Porter: Change. Change how they feel about themselves and then change how they present themselves [01:29:35] to the world. And when you do that, you change the health. So [01:29:40] there’s a recent study actually, which came out in March 25th and [01:29:45] it measured salivary cortisol. So cortisol is a stress hormone. And when your hypothalamic pituitary [01:29:50] adrenal axis is firing up, great. Unless it’s firing up too much all the time and [01:29:55] you’re producing too much cortisol, and cortisol ages you, it inflames you, it stops you. [01:30:00] You know, you you stop your immune system from functioning well. It’s just a whole multitude of things. [01:30:05] And this measured salivary cortisol in patients pre and post [01:30:10] dental rehab for anterior teeth. And not surprising you give people [01:30:15] their front teeth back. In a way they look good and function well. And the systemic cortisol [01:30:20] drops to a level back where you’re back in that state of peace, [01:30:25] you’re parasympathetically activated. So your sleep improves, your joy improves. The things we [01:30:30] talked about earlier on your interactions. And with all of that, your health improves. You’re probably [01:30:35] going to make that patient live longer and live better until they do eventually [01:30:40] get too sick to survive. So that to me is I think that’s something you aspirational. Well, [01:30:45] you and I could be proud of that you can really hang your hat on that and say, like people say, [01:30:50] how many times you met a patient, say, I know it’s vain, but I’d like this. And I said, it’s not vain, [01:30:55] is not vain. It’s absolutely part of human nature to love [01:31:00] beauty. May I ask you a question?

Payman Langroudi: Vanity is seen as a as a sin in older [01:31:05] British people, their culture.

Richard Porter: Culturally, I do think that labelling it as [01:31:10] a sin. Yeah, but if you look at a morning sunrise, do you find it beautiful? Sure. So [01:31:15] does 8 billion other people. Do you think that’s by chance? No, it can’t be. So [01:31:20] the things that we find beautiful like that are just incredibly good for us. Like seeing the morning wave. Like change [01:31:25] in in the sky is very good for setting your internal clock for every hormone. These [01:31:30] things that we find beautiful. You look at a rose and it’s beautiful. You look at a smile and it’s beautiful. [01:31:35] And the more surrounded by beauty you are, the better your physiology. And if you’re part of that [01:31:40] beauty because you love your smile and you get confidence from it, those joyful emotions, that hormonal [01:31:45] neurotransmitter expression in your body is just, you know, we’re part of that as dentists.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:31:50] know what I noticed in teeth whitening? We’re constantly saying ask everyone. [01:31:55]

Richard Porter: Yeah, I love your message on that.

Payman Langroudi: But then. But then some people, I get loads [01:32:00] of practice, right? There’s many excuses for why not. Right. And one of them is my patients are older. Yeah. [01:32:05] And you know, we developed the first version of this in Folkestone. [01:32:10] Yeah I know, I know.

Richard Porter: I’m from Kent.

Payman Langroudi: I know everyone was over 70, and [01:32:15] they wanted white teeth more than everyone else. You know, they so so so then it’s an interesting [01:32:20] thing. I’ve realised that, um, when a patient says I’m too old [01:32:25] for that, the response you might think might be to be to tell them something around [01:32:30] the age is just a number and whatever. But but it’s not. The best response to that is [01:32:35] to throw in a health benefit of teeth whitening. Um, and it’s [01:32:40] funny because the health benefits of teeth whitening, we never really discuss those are good for the gums. And, you know, [01:32:45] placation and I think.

Richard Porter: They feel clean when I use enlightened.

Payman Langroudi: You said [01:32:50] something about root caries.

Richard Porter: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: But the interesting thing is you throw that out to to an older [01:32:55] patient and you say, oh, by the way, it’s really good for you. And and they’ll say, oh, if it’s good for me then [01:33:00] I should we should go ahead. Right now they’re not even saying that, that what they’re saying is vanity. [01:33:05] I don’t want to admit to wanting a whiter smile because culturally, [01:33:10] at my age, one mustn’t. You know, maybe it was the war or whatever, whatever [01:33:15] it was. Yeah. Vanity is a new disease in the UK, you know. Yeah, I agree.

Richard Porter: So [01:33:20] do you think when they say I’m too old, they don’t mean it?

Payman Langroudi: Not quite. Yeah.

Richard Porter: So, so [01:33:25] one of the analogies we use to see if this resonates with you, we talk about life [01:33:30] is unfair. And, um, if you’re going to have a kid, you want them to be clever or stupid. [01:33:35] Everyone says clever. Do you want them to be good looking or. I want it to be good looking. And we call this [01:33:40] the green button. So if I gave a room full of delegates, the option, you press a green [01:33:45] button. I don’t care how old you are, what ratio or gender you are, any of those things at all. And when you wake up in the morning, you [01:33:50] are noticeably, demonstrably better looking. However that looks for you younger, [01:33:55] whatever you know. Would you press the green button and normally [01:34:00] three quarters of the room go? Yeah I would. I’ll be honest. And the people you’re saying who say I’m too old, [01:34:05] say no, I wouldn’t do it. You know, you’re being callous and shallow. I say, okay, well, you can press the red button if you’re [01:34:10] so indifferent. And when you wake up in the morning, you are noticeably, demonstrably uglier, older, less [01:34:15] attractive. You could just press it. No one would press the red button. And I think green button dentistry [01:34:20] is a universal. I think everybody like you can’t buy skin yellowing toothpaste. [01:34:25] You can’t go to Selfridges or Harrods and say, do you have any skin cream that will make me wrinkly and old [01:34:30] because no one wants it? So I think I think you’re right. The market is always there, but you’re having to [01:34:35] cloak it in a health benefit. Is that true?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Listen, when [01:34:40] it when it came, the idea of saying that came to me was I sat in on [01:34:45] someone selling Invisalign to a patient. Okay. Based on its health benefits. Okay. And I thought, [01:34:50] wait a minute. My daughter has just been through two years of ortho. No way would I have put her through [01:34:55] two years of ortho for the health benefits of straighter teeth. You can brush better. [01:35:00] Was what the dentist was selling to the patient. But then I thought, wait a minute. If [01:35:05] he’s saying that, why shouldn’t we throw the health benefits of whitening in? But. But [01:35:10] I noticed all the patients are the ones it resonates with.

Richard Porter: Okay, so let me ask you this then. Do you think those [01:35:15] patients then go and look in the mirror in the morning at their bright white teeth [01:35:20] and go, I’m so glad I’ve got these health benefits. Or do you think they sit there going, I love my [01:35:25] white teeth. I love my.

Payman Langroudi: Every time you’ve made a denture for a for an older patient, they’re picking the whitest [01:35:30] teeth. Absolutely. Yeah.

Richard Porter: Yes. You absolutely nailed it. So it’s it’s that it’s [01:35:35] stated preferences and real preferences, isn’t it? It’s the difference between those two. Yeah. Perception of [01:35:40] it.

Payman Langroudi: Where are we going? Where are you going next? I mean, you’re you’re you’ve [01:35:45] you’ve achieved a lot. Um, I guess you’ve just done the new centre. So does that [01:35:50] has that increased your your number of people you can handle for a year?

Richard Porter: It’s, um. I mean, the centre’s not finished. [01:35:55] We’re in the last few weeks.

Payman Langroudi: Are you in the process?

Richard Porter: Yeah. And it’s been. It’s been an incredible journey. Do you know, the one thing [01:36:00] I’d say about having the centre is, is or building it is working with other [01:36:05] people, not within our beautiful profession. I, I’m [01:36:10] not advocating for the GDC or saying they’re good or bad. Whatever. I [01:36:15] tell you, we need them because having a regulator, the behaviour of professions outside [01:36:20] medicine, dentistry is extraordinary. It’s extraordinary.

Payman Langroudi: Are you having [01:36:25] difficulty with your builders? Is that we’ve had we’ve had.

Richard Porter: Plenty of difficulties with people along the [01:36:30] way. In your who’s doing his Instagram Stories, where he talks about it and just, you know, in terms of people [01:36:35] not reaching a standard, we can be proud as dentists that we have that standard. [01:36:40] So once this place is up and running. Yes, it’s a world of opportunities there, to be honest, because we’ve got our [01:36:45] own training centre. It’s got a six surgery, dental practice and facial aesthetics practice, [01:36:50] and we have a wellness and longevity spa built on it as well. So we’ve got thermal medicine, [01:36:55] cryo chambers, IV drips. We’ve got an infrared sauna, hyperbaric oxygen [01:37:00] treatment rooms. So it’s a beautiful obviously.

Payman Langroudi: Where is it?

Richard Porter: Uh, just off Regent Street. [01:37:05]

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Richard Porter: Yeah. So about three minutes from Oxford Circus.

Payman Langroudi: I’m coming to the opening of that.

Richard Porter: Please do [01:37:10] come for the pre-opening, I would argue. I mean, a lot of people have heard me say this, but [01:37:15] I don’t know if you’ve ever had a proper infrared sauna. You’ll leave thinking. [01:37:20] I haven’t felt this good in years.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Richard Porter: It’s so strange. I’m an ice bath addict. [01:37:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I like ice baths. Do you? Yeah.

Richard Porter: Yeah, mate, we’ll have to. Let’s get you on camera. We’ll do the ice bath. [01:37:30]

Payman Langroudi: The ice bath twin thing.

Richard Porter: And. And then go from there straight into an infrared sauna. You just [01:37:35] literally sit at home, think I just feel strangely good. And like [01:37:40] when your body feels good, your mind feels good.

Payman Langroudi: Yes.

Richard Porter: Everything’s linked like that. So. Yeah, that’s that’s the big project. [01:37:45] And we’re very lucky to have a number of plans for different forms of education once we’re [01:37:50] there. You know, the AV infrastructure is really something we’re proud of. And, um, we affiliate with [01:37:55] some other people who want to run their educational opportunities there as well. And I’m doing a big project on [01:38:00] dementia prevention. I’m involved in the psychology on dementia prevention on a global level.

Payman Langroudi: The [01:38:05] psychology of it.

Richard Porter: Yes. Yeah. So if you look at dementia risk, like twice as many women [01:38:10] have dementia as men. Um, and if you can stop dementia [01:38:15] in women, you’re pretty much by default stop it in men. So everyone benefits. [01:38:20] And we are looking at all the risk factors for dementia, which [01:38:25] are partially genetic and epigenetic. Um, [01:38:30] but a lot of them are lifestyle and many of them are also personality [01:38:35] and emotion related. So chronic stress, chronic inflammation, things like that. And so I’m very involved [01:38:40] in that. And, uh, that’s my going to be my life’s mission. I believe dementia [01:38:45] is not entirely, but almost entirely preventable. Preventable. Yeah. [01:38:50] So I’m going to die on that hill. I might die alone, but I will. I will die on the hill of [01:38:55] thinking I will go down fighting dementia. I think.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your, um, [01:39:00] family situation? Do you have kids or.

Richard Porter: Yeah. I’ve got two sons.

Payman Langroudi: How old are they?

Richard Porter: They are [01:39:05] 14 and 16. So GCSEs this year? Oh. For my oldest, [01:39:10] George. Yeah. Um, they they are my reason. They are. [01:39:15]

Payman Langroudi: I would would you like them to be dentists?

Richard Porter: Do you know that is the question, [01:39:20] mate? The answer to the question is when they’re a little bit [01:39:25] older. I know the decisions are coming sooner. Sooner than I’d like. Genuinely. If [01:39:30] they’ve got the emotional intelligence, the answer is yes. If they haven’t, the answer is no. I [01:39:35] believe that is how interesting. I think that is an almost dichotomous choice [01:39:40] that if you can and maybe they can learn it. But I [01:39:45] think if you can deal with people, I don’t think there are many jobs where [01:39:50] dealing with people is more important skill to have than [01:39:55] tactical emotional intelligence. I guess I just want them to be happy. [01:40:00] And my great friend Matt Clover, who’s, you know, an incredible father, said [01:40:05] to me, you’ll only ever be as happy as your least happy child. And so whatever [01:40:10] they want to do and, and I’ll be honest, I’m not trying to sound, but I would be [01:40:15] miserable for the rest of my life if it means my kids are happy.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Nice man. [01:40:20] I mean, it’s a funny thing because it’s easy to say, you want to want the kid to do whatever he wants to do, [01:40:25] but often they don’t know what they want.

Richard Porter: Of course you don’t. I mean, especially young boys. I mean, they’re just idiots who just play [01:40:30] rugby.

Payman Langroudi: And.

Richard Porter: And throw fruit at each other’s heads. And what about you? Your kids? Dentists.

Payman Langroudi: My. [01:40:35] My son kind of did want to know. He’s just gone to university for the first time. He’s doing aerospace engineering.

Richard Porter: Yeah, [01:40:40] that sounds cool.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it sounds cool, but it’s a lot of it’s defence, unfortunately. I didn’t [01:40:45] even realise that when he told me. I thought it was like Formula One cars and helicopters. But.

Richard Porter: But [01:40:50] it’s like aeronautical defence mechanisms.

Payman Langroudi: Defence is like 90% of it. Wow. You know, [01:40:55] the funny thing is, anyway, you know, as you’d expect. Okay. You know, he went on like a, like a work [01:41:00] experience. And it was all like, I don’t know, the helmet for this bomber. [01:41:05] That’s incredible. Yeah, it’s incredible stuff. Incredible stuff.

Richard Porter: Did you. He [01:41:10] loves engineering.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And you know, he expressed his interest and I thought, well, I [01:41:15] said I’d say to him, I said, listen, every boy likes rockets and planes, right? Are you sure? Yeah. It’s very difficult [01:41:20] to get in and do right. And he said no and he did it. And now he’s in bath. So great. My daughter, [01:41:25] we’re kind of trying to push her into dentistry. Not push, not push, not push. But [01:41:30] she’s like easily she’s saying she doesn’t know. Right. So. Path of least resistance. Kind of. We’re trying to [01:41:35] make the path.

Richard Porter: It’s a massive commitment. If you don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Richard Porter: Did you always want to do it? [01:41:40]

Payman Langroudi: No, but. But I really think it suits a girl very well. Like, you know, in terms of flexibility, [01:41:45] right? You know, you can stop, start one day, five days. Um, God [01:41:50] forbid she gets divorced and and needs to feed her kids. She can. Yeah. [01:41:55] Um, or let’s say she marries Elon Musk and needs to buy handbags. Now she can. [01:42:00] Yeah. I think in that sense is very good, you know.

Richard Porter: And particular areas [01:42:05] within dentistry, I think, you know, subsections within dentistry do give you that flexibility to move in and [01:42:10] out. Yeah. I agree with you. I think our profession gets a bad rap. Yeah, I do, [01:42:15] and I think it’s a good profession. I think it’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Profession as well. Right.

Richard Porter: Yeah I think from within.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Richard Porter: Um, [01:42:20] and, and you know, some of it’s completely justified, but I think, I think we can be more proud of [01:42:25] what we do. Yeah. And I think we can have a more positive spin on it. I think we’re a little isolated. [01:42:30] I think dentists are a little bit alone.

Payman Langroudi: Why do you think dentists kill themselves?

Richard Porter: Um, I [01:42:35] know, so men [01:42:40] and women kill each kill themselves for slightly different reasons. But [01:42:45] for men, it’s particularly like it’s much higher in men. And so I’m not excluding women from the answer. [01:42:50] But if you look at your negative emotion lists, when your brain predicts there [01:42:55] is nothing of value in you to anyone else or any future experience [01:43:00] that makes it worthwhile. We call that emotion hopelessness. So people kill themselves because [01:43:05] they feel completely hopeless. Now, to give someone hope, it has to be hope [01:43:10] for something that is valuable to them. So what’s valuable to you might be different to what’s valuable to your [01:43:15] wife. For you, it’s going to be a sense of purpose. I’m not saying a sense of purpose isn’t important to [01:43:20] your wife, but for you, that might be prime, that you are value to the people who love you and need you. I [01:43:25] just said I’ll be miserable for my kids if it meant they were happy. That sense of being [01:43:30] needed is absolutely key. Dentistry strongly [01:43:35] predisposes people to burnout, and [01:43:40] burnout, in its simplest definition, is being asked to give from an account of which is already [01:43:45] empty. You’re asked to give something you don’t have anymore, and it manifests as [01:43:50] your lack of enthusiasm. Exhaustion, depersonalisation to patients [01:43:55] become a risk rather than a human. What you and I have been talking about all this time, and then a [01:44:00] decrease in your ability to do your job so you get rubbish at your job, you get really unfriendly around [01:44:05] patients and you’re just exhausted all the time. And I was I was actually invited to give a talk about [01:44:10] that at the British Society of Prosthodontics recently.

Richard Porter: I always wanted to go there because [01:44:15] it’s the Royal Institute and it’s where like Newton spoke and stuff. [01:44:20] Not that I’m comparing myself to him, but it was nice to be in the same halls and and so [01:44:25] then you can look at the risk factors for it. And a lot of the there are internal and external risk factors [01:44:30] for burnout. And that sense of hopelessness and the external ones are very [01:44:35] prevalent in dentistry, which is a demanding workload, social and sort [01:44:40] of professional isolation. Like you sit in a room, you don’t get to move around much. You’re often working [01:44:45] without much natural light. The ability to move your body produce myokines from your muscles. Um, [01:44:50] a sense of, uh, apathy and no hope for the future. You’re not going to develop anymore. [01:44:55] You’re on this routine. The risk of patients complaints, they loom over us a lot. Regulatory [01:45:00] overregulation. So the external risk factors are huge. There’s the big one that people don’t [01:45:05] talk about is emotional. We call it emotional instability, which [01:45:10] in personality psychology has the term neuroticism. We call it an end score. [01:45:15] So you have an end score out of 100 and so do I. And so does [01:45:20] everyone else you meet. And the higher your end score, the more internally predisposed to [01:45:25] burnout and sensations of negativity and indeed, God forbid, hopelessness. Everyone is. [01:45:30] So I’m very passionate about saying to someone the [01:45:35] the Temple of Delphi, you know, Apollo’s temple was know thyself, understand [01:45:40] what you’re like. Understand if you do feel stressed and you bring it into [01:45:45] your body and you ruminate, and how predisposed to anxiety and depression and sadness and negative emotion are you [01:45:50] because it’s different for everyone, literally on a range from 0 to 100.

Richard Porter: And if you’re very, very high, [01:45:55] you need to be aware of that. You don’t. It doesn’t make you a bad person. It makes you incredibly good at detecting tigers [01:46:00] in the forest, which I ignored, which is why I’m dead. So your threat sensor is really good, but if it’s [01:46:05] too good and you’re predicting misery, and you have a bad thing because you will have bad things in dentistry, [01:46:10] you will have bad days and it destroys. You know yourself and you’ve got two options [01:46:15] one, change your end score. You can definitely do that. So if somebody is really heavily [01:46:20] predisposed and they’ve got very high end score, very high neuroticism, like 96, 97. [01:46:25] You can bring that down. There’s evidence based things of things you can do to bring it down. Doesn’t [01:46:30] change you, just enhances your experience of life. Or you need to build a life [01:46:35] where you’re less exposed to it. And that might be niching. So that might be you do do a a [01:46:40] line bleach and bond. And that’s you’re not trying to do Indo and prose and perio and everything. [01:46:45] You just say, I’m just, I’m just or I’m just going to set up a whitening practice and I’m gonna do whitening and bonding [01:46:50] or I’m just going to do, you know, you either structure the external world or alter your internal world. [01:46:55] And I’m very and that’s why I if someone kills themselves [01:47:00] because of their profession, it angers me. I, I don’t like that at all. [01:47:05] I don’t think I that that shouldn’t happen.

Payman Langroudi: You know, we’re treating life [01:47:10] patients who are scared as well. You know, my my cousin’s an ophthalmic surgeon. He says his [01:47:15] GA days are relaxed. Yeah. His LA days are much, much more stressful. You [01:47:20] know, they’re having to stick needles in people’s emotional.

Richard Porter: Emotional mirroring is.

Payman Langroudi: Real. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know, there’s a very [01:47:25] tense person and you’re there all day looking after this very tense person. [01:47:30] Yeah. You know, it brings on a lot of stress to you.

Richard Porter: And we work inside one of their orifices. [01:47:35] I’m not being crude, but you’ve got a few orifices on your body. But there’s only one [01:47:40] that’s involved in eating speech and gets decorated every day. And you put lipstick on. [01:47:45] It’s like maybe you put earrings on that’s decorating this orifice. You know, but that’s it. [01:47:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Richard Porter: And it’s it’s an awful, you know, it’s so important. And that emotional mirroring [01:47:55] is brutal. I’ll be honest. You know, if you give an example of that Payman, you’re you’ve got a really [01:48:00] calm manner about you. So you and I haven’t met today before today. But [01:48:05] you have helped me here just because you’re relaxed and chill and kind [01:48:10] and, you know, emotional mirroring is absolutely real. And you would have known if I turned up here and, [01:48:15] you know, it was absolutely terrifying. And you would have you would have turned it on even more and [01:48:20] you would have given me more emotional support. But how much would that cost you? And if you do that 20 times [01:48:25] in a row, you.

Payman Langroudi: Think.

Richard Porter: It’s this podcast going anyway?

Payman Langroudi: Did you have delegates who [01:48:30] are paralysed by fear of litigation?

Richard Porter: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a much more common thing these days.

Richard Porter: Yes [01:48:35] it is.

Payman Langroudi: And what do you do for them? Do you, do you sort of. Is it like, is it the same as being phobic [01:48:40] of spiders or something. You have to.

Richard Porter: So I mean, so if somebody’s got [01:48:45] a real, um, the only thing about a spider [01:48:50] in the UK isn’t really going to hurt you. So a phobia is when it’s probably [01:48:55] not justified. Yeah. I think you should be aware of litigation. [01:49:00]

Payman Langroudi: No, but paralysed by it. You know, I’m not trying anything new. I’m. But hate every day [01:49:05] because I’m worried. Every patients.

Richard Porter: That happens all the time. Yeah, that happens not all the time, but at least once [01:49:10] a year.

Payman Langroudi: It’s kind of common, isn’t it?

Richard Porter: I’ll have 5 or 6 people like that.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Richard Porter: Really. And I think you can go down [01:49:15] the rational route. But then I would ask that. So you can that’s cognitive behaviour [01:49:20] therapy. And then partial exposure to risk at the titrated dose. That’s right [01:49:25] for them. Yeah. But if if you’ve got two people who are both really bright, they’re both dentists [01:49:30] and they’ve got the same level of risk, but one is paralysed and one isn’t, then the difference is in the external [01:49:35] world is the internal. So it comes back to that end score. And I would say to that person, let’s [01:49:40] talk about ice baths. Bear with me for a second. Yeah. One [01:49:45] of the when you’re talking about the mind, you have to say it with humility because [01:49:50] it’s infinite. 729 trillion synapses. So [01:49:55] all we can do with the mind is use models. And if I’m going to use a model for the mind in this situation, I would [01:50:00] say you’ve got a coach voice in your head and a critic voice, and the critic voice [01:50:05] is your paralysing voice. It’s the one. Don’t start a whitening company. [01:50:10] Don’t, don’t do this. Don’t go into aeronautics. Don’t do this. Don’t put your ideas [01:50:15] forward. Don’t invite this stranger into your podcast. You might be drunk or whatever, you know. Don’t [01:50:20] take chances. It’s the same voice that says, don’t get in an ice bath. It’s the same [01:50:25] voice. And so if I have an ice bath, it’s extremely cold. The weather’s turning [01:50:30] now and there’s not once I look at it and go, oh, get me in there. Every single time I look at it and I [01:50:35] think, oh God, this is going to be horrible.

Richard Porter: I’ve chosen my music, I’ve got some Viking chant going on, and [01:50:40] I think, right. What kind of person, Richard, are you? Are you going to become. Where’s your identity? Get in the ice bath. Shut up and get on with it. [01:50:45] But I still hear the critic voice. So what I would do for those people is say [01:50:50] externally, what can we control? What can we mitigate? What are the systems? What are the level of assurances [01:50:55] and what’s actually rational. And then internally, let’s have a look at how you look at life. [01:51:00] Because the same voice that says I’m paralysed, stay safe, [01:51:05] don’t go into work is the same one who says don’t have the ice bath. So it’s [01:51:10] a small, trivial example, but we try and change that threat sensor, [01:51:15] that amygdala response to perceived or even real threats. And [01:51:20] I think the harshness of it is that there are real threats. Yeah, there are difficult patients [01:51:25] and there are problems and there are procedures that can go awry. But most of them won’t. And [01:51:30] it’s you being resilient enough by changing your internal architecture. [01:51:35] So you become the sort of person who can say, listen, I’m never going to silence my critic [01:51:40] voice. I’m never going to silence it, because we can measure this over time, measure it in score over time. But [01:51:45] I can at least dampen it down so I can have the life that I want, that that I love helping [01:51:50] people become.

Payman Langroudi: Can I ask you some quick fire questions?

Richard Porter: Oh, this is a scary.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:51:55] what’s what’s what comes to mind if I say, what’s the best lecture you’ve ever been to?

Richard Porter: Uh, best [01:52:00] lecture I’ve ever been to. Dental. Not not non Dental. Um, [01:52:05] I would say the the the best lecture I’ve ever seen was, [01:52:10] uh, TJ power, who is a neuroscientist. He’s got a book out called [01:52:15] dose I recommend everyone to. And I’ve seen him online give a lecture. He gave a live lecture I couldn’t [01:52:20] attend just recently at a big health event. Jay Powell I know, ridiculous name. And [01:52:25] and you think you’re going to see some David Goggins like warrior and you’ll see this small, [01:52:30] diminutive, nerdy looking, really lovely, super smart. And if he watches this. [01:52:35] Hi, TJ, uh, um, neuroscientist, and he’s wrote a book called dopamine. [01:52:40] Dopamine, which is, which is, uh, sorry, called dose, which is dopamine. Oxytocin. Serotonin, endorphins. [01:52:45]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I think I’ve heard him. Yeah.

Richard Porter: I’m going to come back with all these books.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve heard him I’ve [01:52:50] heard him on a on a podcast.

Richard Porter: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant. Excellent, excellent. Yeah, yeah. And Dental. [01:52:55]

Richard Porter: Dental. Um, I, I going to do, you know, [01:53:00] I’ve in terms of content, I’ve heard Daniel Hoff when he was [01:53:05] first talking about Emacs, I’ve heard, um, the lecture I was most blown [01:53:10] away with was Marcus Hertzler, and Marcus Hertzler was showing how to [01:53:15] do the tunnel technique when it was first pioneered with a connective tissue graft from the palate. Not [01:53:20] raising a flat but undermining everything. Plumbing it in, using composite to close your contacts [01:53:25] and suturing this position. And I remember I was at the British site of restorative dentistry, sitting next to Sian and my consultant [01:53:30] colleague. Just thinking blown my mind venini the first time I ever saw him years [01:53:35] ago, showing lots of and thinking my composites are A3 and yours are [01:53:40] like nine shades of composite and they’re thinking that’s absolutely brilliant. I’m going to put a shout out for Martin [01:53:45] Keller because, uh, Martin is [01:53:50] is afraid to stick his head above the parapet and say, this is what I think [01:53:55] is right. You can agree or disagree. I’m just here to talk to you about it. This is what I think is the right [01:54:00] thing to do by your fellow human being.

Payman Langroudi: Do you mean the the water test and all of that?

Richard Porter: Yeah, yeah, I do, [01:54:05] I do.

Payman Langroudi: I think, by the way, one of the most important sort of things that he did manage to [01:54:10] get that into the narrative.

Richard Porter: Just just to make it and to get your foot in the door. Yeah. With the conversation, [01:54:15] you’ve got to.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Richard Porter: And it’s brave.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. I [01:54:20] don’t know. I mean, it’s we should be able to agree and disagree with each other [01:54:25] in dentistry without it becoming toxic, although it does often become [01:54:30] toxic. And I always think about that, you know, why is that?

Richard Porter: And why do you think it is?

Payman Langroudi: Well, I think [01:54:35] there’s a couple of things here. One is you get a bunch of egos because, you [01:54:40] know, they’ve they’ve done something a certain way. They’ve been successful. It’s quite easy [01:54:45] to be successful as a dentist compared to as a marketeer, let’s say. So the guy’s been successful. [01:54:50] He’s done something a certain way. Now someone’s saying that was the wrong thing to do. It almost gets [01:54:55] at your identity, you know? But then you can hide behind the patient, and [01:55:00] then you can do the most awful things to each other under cover of of patient [01:55:05] care. You know, is my concern. Yeah. You can, you know, it gives it gives you license to say [01:55:10] anything about you. As long as there’s a patient. We’re talking.

Richard Porter: Yeah, yeah. The benevolence.

Payman Langroudi: Of healthcare. Yeah.

Richard Porter: Yeah, [01:55:15] yeah. I’m that’s we call that moral spiralling. You know, I’m sitting I’m [01:55:20] ever higher. My moral. And once you’re morally superior to everyone, you can cast aspersions.

Payman Langroudi: Wherever [01:55:25] you want. More spiral. Spiralling.

Richard Porter: Spiralling. Yeah. You just sit on your moral spiral. And if if [01:55:30] I think if you, you know, you can gossip about another dentist and I do, I think you’re right. I think it [01:55:35] does happen in dentistry more you get to feel morally superior without doing anything.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Richard Porter: You know, without [01:55:40] doing anything moral.

Payman Langroudi: We could all do with a bit of moral superiority. Do you do you think.

Richard Porter: The, um. [01:55:45] Do you think there is more envy in dentistry than in other professions?

Payman Langroudi: No, [01:55:50] I doubt it, I doubt it, although I’ve spoken to people, you know, um, people who come from banking [01:55:55] into dentistry and, uh, you know, they own corporates and all that, but but they actually saying [01:56:00] that people in dentistry are much more horrible to each other than bankers are should try builders. I’m [01:56:05] surprised. I was surprised when he said that the guy, [01:56:10] um, Kunal from Tooth Club, he’s got 15 practices or something, I think. [01:56:15]

Richard Porter: I think he’s right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, he must be. I mean, he’s seen both sides, right? I just thought bankers were, [01:56:20] like, real, you know, do each other’s in, do each other in. No morals and all that.

Richard Porter: Yeah. Yeah. Well, [01:56:25] I mean, they’re in it for one reason and that’s to make money.

Payman Langroudi: Although although I noticed my buddies who [01:56:30] are in corporate, you know, banks and things, they’re so politically sort of [01:56:35] aware, you know, of what they can and can’t say and do and you know, that corporate speak and.

Richard Porter: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: For [01:56:40] sure, it’s part of working in a big company. Whereas the dentists, many of us are mavericks, you know, like [01:56:45] we haven’t worked anywhere other than our own place. Yeah, it’s true, it’s true, [01:56:50] it’s true.

Richard Porter: But there is. And you know, dentists we don’t get trained to do we.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t get trained to talk.

Richard Porter: To [01:56:55] a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly.

Richard Porter: But not to run a business.

Payman Langroudi: But but even, you know, I personally I’m terrible [01:57:00] at meetings. But, you know, in a meeting, there’s a certain way of carrying yourself, and you know.

Richard Porter: You’re not good.

Payman Langroudi: At [01:57:05] listening to people, and I love that. I hate meetings. So do I don’t like meetings.

Richard Porter: So do I. It’s [01:57:10] all performative.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know, but I, you know, I know how little I like it when it’s [01:57:15] in my own company, on my own subject, with my own people. And [01:57:20] half an hour in, I’m going crazy. Yeah. You know, like, it couldn’t be more about me [01:57:25] than that. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay.

Richard Porter: So where’s your discomfort come from, do you think? [01:57:30]

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know, I just don’t like it. I don’t know. Adhd, whatever. I don’t know, something like that. [01:57:35]

Richard Porter: Yeah. Yeah I love it though I you’re seeing from him she I want to listen to so. [01:57:40] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah very very much. Yeah. You know the reason I hate meetings is because [01:57:45] they take take too bloody long. Yeah. You know, and if you schedule, let’s say you and I had to talk [01:57:50] about a particular subject and we schedule an hour for it. It’ll take an hour if we schedule. It’s called Peterson’s. Yeah, yeah. If you say [01:57:55] we’ve got ten minutes, we’ve got to bang this out.

Payman Langroudi: Ten minutes. So, so, so true. I try and keep it very short.

Richard Porter: Yeah. When I go to a meeting, [01:58:00] I say, right, this is the agenda. If you waffle, I’m going to silence you. You know I will. Yeah. [01:58:05] Somehow I’m going to move on. No waffling. Point one. Let’s do it. A [01:58:10] well-run meeting. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your favourite Dental book?

Richard Porter: Uh, you know, I’ve got an easy [01:58:15] answer for that. An easy answer. Mike Wise no, it’s not, but I want I want [01:58:20] to say this slowly. I want to say it slowly. Because this book to me and [01:58:25] again, goodness me, I wish I bought you one. The author is a man called Farhad Naini, and [01:58:30] Farhad Naini is an orthodontist I was blessed to work with. I think he’s the most [01:58:35] published, scientifically published dentist in the UK, probably Europe. I [01:58:40] swear to you, this man is a genius. And he wrote a book on [01:58:45] aesthetics and orthodontics, facial aesthetics and orthodontics. And you [01:58:50] can read this book like a novel. He is an exquisite genius. [01:58:55] He is one of the kindest, most eloquent, [01:59:00] brilliant people you could ever work with. I am biased because I’ve worked with him and he’s helped me so many times.

Payman Langroudi: The name of the book [01:59:05] I.

Richard Porter: Yeah, yeah, let me get it. Word for word. Do you mind if I look it up on my phone? Let me get it. Absolutely. [01:59:10] 100%. And, um.

Payman Langroudi: His name is Farhad Naini. Yeah.

Richard Porter: Farhad [01:59:15] Naini.

Payman Langroudi: Naini.

Richard Porter: Farhad Naini. And, um, he, [01:59:20] um, I remember he’s a very, very interesting guy in that he, um. [01:59:25] He’s like a fourth Dan black belt.

Payman Langroudi: Of [01:59:30] course. Of course. You meet him and you think. You think you’re talking to the most.

Richard Porter: Gentle, [01:59:35] kind person you could ever meet in your entire life. And, uh, but he’s obviously a [01:59:40] very, uh, very, very impressive guy. He’s talking at an event I’m going to soon. And [01:59:45] so there’s a there’s a guy called Daniel Hamermesh who wrote a book called Beauty [01:59:50] Pays. And he talks essentially about the halo effect and how, you know, bond [01:59:55] looks like bond looks, and Danny DeVito is never going to be Batman. And you know, I’m afraid [02:00:00] what the stuff you and I were talking about aesthetics matter. And, um, he lectures [02:00:05] often with him.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Richard Porter: Farhad lectures on like, a level that is just [02:00:10] sort of stratospheric.

Payman Langroudi: To how cool.

Richard Porter: But, you know, a lot of people, he’s so humble, [02:00:15] you won’t know him. Um, let me get it absolutely correct here. Um, [02:00:20] and obviously, I’m searching him up and it’s buried, buried, [02:00:25] buried, buried. Although book. Maybe we get a screenshot and I’ll put [02:00:30] it up. Um, facial aesthetics and Concepts by clinical [02:00:35] diagnosis by Farhad Naini.

Payman Langroudi: Nice.

Richard Porter: Nice facial aesthetics concepts [02:00:40] and clinical diagnosis. But, you know, when you read that book, I’m sorry. I’m staring at it because [02:00:45] it’s so.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful when.

Richard Porter: When he when you read that book, it goes into the history and [02:00:50] all the symbolic history and concepts of beauty. And I just remember thinking, wow, I’m [02:00:55] blessed to be close to your mind. Have I sold it enough?

Payman Langroudi: You have? Yeah. [02:01:00] What’s a course you’re desperate to go on? Like if I. If if there were no time constraints, [02:01:05] no money constraints, no constraints, you could click your finger and get get yourself through [02:01:10] a course or a program or whatever. What would you do?

Richard Porter: Dental. Um, do you know, you [02:01:15] always had this sense of inadequacy? And, you know, I’m reasonably well known for doing implants and things like [02:01:20] that, but working in Maxfacts, if there’s anything zygomatic or or further back in the pterygoids, [02:01:25] that would always fall to our maxfacts consultants. So if somebody could say, right, Rich, I would give you these [02:01:30] skills, it would be deeper surgical skills where you could do that dissection yourself. I think from a clinical [02:01:35] point of view, from a non-dental point of view, I, I do study, uh, like [02:01:40] behavioural cognition and psychology now, but I would do that forever. And if [02:01:45] I could.

Payman Langroudi: Avoid fascinated.

Richard Porter: If I could do it. Yeah. If I could avoid sleeping to not waste time [02:01:50] with sleep, I would study it forever. Like understanding for me. Sorry. I know you’re doing [02:01:55] quickfire questions, but you invited me. It’s your mistake. The. I think the [02:02:00] internal motivation, remember, starts with curiosity. Two universities. We can be endlessly [02:02:05] curious about the cosmos, nature, flora, fauna, the incredible natural world. [02:02:10] There’s always something to study. And the internal. There’s two infinite universes. External, internal. [02:02:15] And I will study the internal University of human psychology forever.

Payman Langroudi: Love [02:02:20] that.

Richard Porter: Thanks. Love that.

Payman Langroudi: Final questions. I will be.

Richard Porter: Quick, [02:02:25] I promise.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, you don’t need to be quick. Um. Fantasy dinner party. Oh, three guests, [02:02:30] dead or alive.

Richard Porter: I’ve got to have Friedrich Nietzsche.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [02:02:35]

Richard Porter: I have apparently he was miserable and sad all the time, but I think [02:02:40] he was the brightest man who ever lived. Probably, um, Scarlett [02:02:45] Johansson, for obvious reasons. I’m still human, Um, [02:02:50] who else do [02:02:55] you know? Uh, another living Naval Ravikant, I think, is navel. [02:03:00]

Payman Langroudi: Navel? Yeah.

Richard Porter: Yeah, I just think he’s, you know, he’s he’s wicked. Yeah, he is absolutely wicked. [02:03:05] My, there’s essential reading. And, uh, you know, when breath becomes air. [02:03:10] I don’t know if you read it. No, it’s just an incredible book. And, uh, the guy that [02:03:15] wrote it died. And it’s the story of his death. Actually, I would love to meet him. I [02:03:20] forget his name so much. But when breath becomes air. If anyone wants a book recommendation, [02:03:25] just.

Payman Langroudi: You can have. You can have breath.

Richard Porter: And when I die, that’s [02:03:30] it.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s that.

Richard Porter: He’s a cardiologist. Genius cardiologist. Yeah. Incredible.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely [02:03:35] incredible. The final, final question is a deathbed question. Okay. Um, I [02:03:40] should ask you one more. Um, three pieces of advice for your deathbed, for your loved ones, without [02:03:45] doubt.

Richard Porter: Number one. And I’d make it two and three if you’d allow me, is know thyself. Self-awareness [02:03:50] and understanding.

Payman Langroudi: Why do you think self-awareness, though [02:03:55] is is is something you can train?

Richard Porter: Yes. I didn’t used to, but I [02:04:00] do.

Payman Langroudi: Really.

Richard Porter: I do. I think you can create metacognition in people. I think you can say to them I [02:04:05] being trivial. I use the example of. So it’s [02:04:10] Monday night, Tuesday next week you’re going to dream. Your [02:04:15] brain is extremely active at night. Massively. You’re going to have emotions in your [02:04:20] dream events going to happen in your dream. You have no control of what’s going to happen. So don’t tell me you’re in [02:04:25] charge of your own mind or you get to do is observe it. Your conscious mind can observe your unconscious [02:04:30] mind. So all we do with metacognition is to say, let’s have a look at your your unconscious [02:04:35] mind. Let’s see why you think. Why do I like Payman like, don’t [02:04:40] just say I like him. That’s that’s pretend world. Why? What [02:04:45] are the reasons, You know, go into it. It’s because he makes you feel this and he was this way and just [02:04:50] understand the reasoning. And as soon as you do that, you realise that that crucible we talked about, you know, [02:04:55] your your mind, your soul, whatever it is you lives in, your brain, gives you emotion, thoughts, feelings, your [02:05:00] personality. You need to understand that this personality contends with all the [02:05:05] 7 billion other personalities and how you behave towards them, how you behave. [02:05:10] Understanding how you behave determines how they react now. How they react is [02:05:15] your entire life. From the minute you’re four years old and you become self-aware up [02:05:20] until your last breath, if you know that how the world presents itself [02:05:25] to you is determined by how you behave. So I think as soon as you can get [02:05:30] that click in people’s head, they go, wow, it’s difficult sell because it means accountability and responsibility. [02:05:35] And you know, you’ve got to be humble about it. But if you can make people self aware, um, [02:05:40] I think it’s the biggest asset you can ever give them.

Richard Porter: It’s just a harsh lesson. [02:05:45] Beautiful two would be stay curious and [02:05:50] appreciate beauty and awe and seek it in all things. And with that, [02:05:55] I sneaking in 2.5 because it gives you gratitude. You should be grateful. Like if I say [02:06:00] to you, now we’re in a room without natural light. If I say to you, hey, it’s a beautiful day outside, [02:06:05] I’m using that. You know exactly what day I’m talking about. You know it. So appreciate [02:06:10] it. Feel the kiss of the scan on your skin. And think about how that feels when it’s May and [02:06:15] that first spring day. Just cherish those all filled moments because they [02:06:20] will end. Um, it will come to an end. And I guess my third piece would be just don’t quit. [02:06:25] Just don’t ever quit. Don’t give up. Find your future self. Find that [02:06:30] orientation and just even small steps toward it. Feel amazing no matter what situation [02:06:35] you’re in, even if you’re close to hopelessness, I’d actually say if anyone watched them, they’re close. Give you a call, give [02:06:40] me a call. We’ll go out for dinner for sure. Whatever happens, you [02:06:45] are of value. Every human has a value. Every single one. And [02:06:50] you will have duties that I need you for. So don’t quit. [02:06:55] And wherever you are in life now, you can. You can go again. And you [02:07:00] can build from whatever position you’re in. And next, the next day can be better than yesterday, no matter where [02:07:05] you are. So don’t quit. And then when you you get to a position, you think, okay, I’m in a stronger position [02:07:10] now to help other people watch the joy that follows him from that. It’s just unbelievable.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the way [02:07:15] you answered those three were very much along the lines of, I’m trying to be like this myself, so you should [02:07:20] too. But what about the opposite? Like, what if the if the thing was, I [02:07:25] wish I had been more what what would more of a risk taker, more [02:07:30] of a.

Richard Porter: Oh, you know, I think I think that’s so hard. I think that’s such a hard question to answer because [02:07:35] I certainly don’t want to come across. I’m saying people like, be like me. I wouldn’t do that, but I would. I [02:07:40] would say that, um.

Payman Langroudi: You know what I mean? I don’t go to the gym. I might give that piece of [02:07:45] advice, though. I might say, go to the gym. Yeah. So, so, so from thinking [02:07:50] of it that way. What? What do you wish you were more like that? You’re not.

Richard Porter: Oh, [02:07:55] God. I mean, I’ll tell you something. I wish I was better at finding [02:08:00] peace in my own mind. I wish I was better at that. Um. And [02:08:05] I’m not very good at that. And, you know, I’m not comparing myself to Elon Musk. But Elon [02:08:10] Musk said many people think they want to be me, but they wouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [02:08:15]

Richard Porter: My mind is a storm and you don’t understand. And so I think it’s [02:08:20] that. So I guess what would what advice would I give more? I mean, I [02:08:25] should have been more compassionate to people in the past. I think if you’re very able [02:08:30] to create positive emotions with tactical intelligence, you can be hurtful. I regret hurting people. [02:08:35] Um, I, um, I’ve [02:08:40] wasted time. I stopped drinking years ago. Most of [02:08:45] my regrets and stupid things. I’ve done nothing terrible, but was [02:08:50] being drunk. I wish I’d never. I wish I’d never been drunk in my [02:08:55] life. I do. Yeah. And, uh, I guess, you know, a lot of this is. What [02:09:00] would you say to your kids to not go wrong?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Richard Porter: You know, and I, um. Yeah, just [02:09:05] just understand that every choice and action and behaviour you present to the world will have a reaction.

Payman Langroudi: A [02:09:10] massive pleasure, man. It’s been. I’ve kept you here longer than you probably want to be. I [02:09:15] have no.

Richard Porter: Idea.

Payman Langroudi: I feel like I can’t let this opportunity.

Richard Porter: I feel I feel awful because you’re [02:09:20] you’re you’re very good at asking questions, and I, I feel uncomfortable being this. I [02:09:25] want to, you know, I, I was walking in here and I was thinking, I want to find out about you. [02:09:30] I want it to be like a conversation.

Payman Langroudi: You have a podcast studio in the building. We do. We call it [02:09:35] studio. Yeah, yeah.

Richard Porter: What will happen with that? I mean, I want to do a lot of psychology work in there. Yeah, yeah. You know, [02:09:40] because because if you can teach people, we call it the algorithm of life. And if you can teach that and [02:09:45] personality science around it. So that’s very good from that point of view. Yeah. Yeah. We do have a podcast. You know, [02:09:50] all about me.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a, it’s a brilliant um, I don’t know with you, man. It’s like, you know, the, the, the [02:09:55] wonder of a child that gets squeezed out of us the older we get. You [02:10:00] seem to have that in abundance. And and yet, obviously, children don’t talk about interesting subjects, [02:10:05] a subject as interesting as yours. So the combination is brilliant. Yeah, well, you’re very. [02:10:10]

Richard Porter: Kind, mate.

Payman Langroudi: It’s nice to.

Richard Porter: See. I’ve been curious. Do you let me ask you a question. Do you enjoy podcasting? Do [02:10:15] you enjoy.

Payman Langroudi: Interviewing? Yeah.

Richard Porter: So I’m going to ask you more questions briefly. Yeah. Enjoying [02:10:20] someone as a skill. And I was with a guy called Andy Galpin recently who’s [02:10:25] been he did six episodes on Huberman. Yeah. I’ll drop a name for you. And, um, so he’s an [02:10:30] incredible neuroscientist. Unbelievable. And, uh, I was asking [02:10:35] him about being interviewed because he’s done so many podcasts. And I said, it’s a real skill, isn’t [02:10:40] it? And he said, yeah. He said, it’s an absolute skill to be sitting where you are and do it really, [02:10:45] really well. And I said, have you had good and bad? He said, yeah, I’ve had some terrible interviews and [02:10:50] and other ones that have gone really, really well. I’m not trying to blow sunshine up your arse. You’re you’re amazingly [02:10:55] good at it. Thank you. You’re incredible. Did you practice?

Payman Langroudi: Well, it’s been, you know, 320. [02:11:00]

Richard Porter: I was I was looking through the last 50 or 120, you know. Was he going to ask? But [02:11:05] yeah, I was looking through it all. Do you think you’re better than you were then? Do you mind me asking?

Payman Langroudi: Uh, bit. Not [02:11:10] a lot. Not a lot. You know, I listened to episode three yesterday, and, um, I like [02:11:15] that. Um, it was harder back then because there was two hosts, um, with Prav now, [02:11:20] Prav does it whenever he feels like. Okay, but one, 1 to 1 is very easy.

Richard Porter: Yeah, it’s different, isn’t it, I [02:11:25] find. Were you always good at talking, though?

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know.

Richard Porter: You’re too modest.

Payman Langroudi: But you [02:11:30] know, I don’t. People. People tell me they like listening and that’s just an amazing thing.

Richard Porter: I think you can build [02:11:35] this empire without being good at it, I think. You know, so much comes down to connection. It [02:11:40] really does. I think you’re going to.

Payman Langroudi: Connect you to say so, man. So, so lovely to meet you. [02:11:45]

Richard Porter: It’s really good to meet you. I’ve really enjoyed our time.

[VOICE]: This is [02:11:50] Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [02:11:55] leaders in dentistry. Your [02:12:00] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [02:12:05] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge [02:12:10] thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and [02:12:15] what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some [02:12:20] value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a [02:12:25] friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And [02:12:30] don’t forget our six star rating.