Month: February 2026

[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get to go [00:00:10] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:15] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:00:20]

Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by enlighten. Enlighten is an advanced [00:00:25] teeth whitening system. Join us for online training, where I’ll take you through everything [00:00:30] you need to know about how to assess a case quickly, how to use the system, how to [00:00:35] talk to patients. Because when you know you can deliver brilliant results, it’s so much easier to talk about [00:00:40] it. To book your course, which takes only an hour. It’s completely free. Visit Enlighten Online [00:00:45] Training. Now let’s get to the pod. It gives me great pleasure to welcome Nasser [00:00:50] Sayed and she’s bright. On to the podcast. It’s a pleasure to have you guys. [00:00:55] Um, Nasser is a dentist with special interest in oral surgery, sedation. And [00:01:00] I’m finding out now, um, quite an entrepreneurial spirit. Lots of practices [00:01:05] just go through how many you’ve got.

Nasser Syed: Yeah. So thank you very much for the invite. [00:01:10] It’s a pleasure to be.

Payman Langroudi: Here for coming all the.

Nasser Syed: Way. Oh no, it’s not a problem through the storm as well. So I got here. Um, [00:01:15] so we have um, two practices in partnership. Uh, and we’re buying a third currently [00:01:20] in partnership. Um, I have two on my own. Uh, and then my business partner has another four, so [00:01:25] there’s a bit of a group, uh, formulating, um, and. Yeah, [00:01:30] I like to buy another two soon as well. So. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So how clinical are you?

Nasser Syed: That’s. [00:01:35] I was very clinical up to about 2022. Um, so I [00:01:40] was nearly 5 to 6 days clinical where I was doing mainly oral surgery on a referral basis that [00:01:45] was part NHS and part private. Um, but then after that I realised I could probably [00:01:50] only do one thing really well. So I can either run the business and grow [00:01:55] that, or I can be a carry on doing the oral surgery with the implants and so on and so forth. [00:02:00] And I thought, well, no one’s going to look after the business better than I am. Um, so [00:02:05] I thought, well, and I can get a good implantologist in. So I thought, well, where [00:02:10] is my time best spent? So I thought, well, running the business. So I now [00:02:15] reduce my clinical capacity where I do a lot of training. So I train a lot of people in [00:02:20] conscious sedation. So I run a course called Manchester Sedation Course which [00:02:25] is SDC accredited. So we can train beginners as well. Um, so about [00:02:30] 2 to 3 days of my week is done with training dentists in conscious sedation which is [00:02:35] IV sedation midazolam drug only. And then I do one day a week teaching at Manchester Dental Hospital. [00:02:40] Uh, that’s my, uh, charity day, I call it, where I give back. Um, [00:02:45] so I teach undergraduates, postgraduates in the oral surgery department at University of Manchester, [00:02:50] and, uh, I really enjoy that. And then the other two, 2 [00:02:55] or 3 days, I will be between the practices. Just trying to put [00:03:00] out few fires if.

Payman Langroudi: You’re doing a lot.

Nasser Syed: Yeah, it can be quite. [00:03:05] I enjoy it. I think that’s the main thing. Um, I think if I didn’t enjoy it, I think. [00:03:10]

Payman Langroudi: Were you always this hard worker? I think something something [00:03:15] sort of.

Nasser Syed: I think I get it from my father. Um, my father was a considerable hard [00:03:20] worker. You know, came to this country in the 60s, late 60s. You know, grafted, [00:03:25] you know, got a job with Ford and then from there, then [00:03:30] opened his own business. Um, and then in the weekends would do some work [00:03:35] in the marketplace. You know, so he was always doing something. So I think growing up, that’s [00:03:40] what I saw. Uh, my brother, who’s nine years older than me, who’s Professor Rioja, [00:03:45] uh, he’s a very hard working as well. So I think it’s sort of [00:03:50] within the blood. Possibly, but, um, but mainly I enjoy it. Which which is important, [00:03:55] I think if you don’t enjoy it, it can become quite torturous [00:04:00] really. But I think if you’re enjoying it, it can be your hobby. Fun [00:04:05] time.

Payman Langroudi: Do you find, like there was a time earlier on in your career where like, I don’t know, Apicectomy [00:04:10] was was was turning you on and now now business turns you on.

Nasser Syed: Apicectomy [00:04:15] still turns you on, if I’m being honest.

Nasser Syed: Yeah. However [00:04:20] sad that is. Um. So.

Nasser Syed: Yeah, I still like to keep my hands in the oral surgery, so I, you know, [00:04:25] I get referrals from colleagues or or associates and so on and so forth. So I still like [00:04:30] to do that. But, um. It’s about managing [00:04:35] people. I don’t see it as I’m seeing myself as a businessman. I don’t see myself as an entrepreneur. I [00:04:40] see myself as so on, who can manage [00:04:45] people and get try and get the best out of people, and whether that is my associates or whether that [00:04:50] is my, um, employees. Um, I’m really interested [00:04:55] in what they want to achieve, what they want to get, and how are we going to do that together.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:05:00] then give you some top tips on that? Well, because I’m really interested in that too. [00:05:05] Okay. But I’m not executing as much as I’m interested in [00:05:10] it. Okay. Like do you have things that you do. Do you, do you sit down 1 to 1 with every member of staff every six [00:05:15] months or whatever?

Nasser Syed: Yeah. Well, if I focus on the associates. So we take on a lot of Fhd+ ones [00:05:20] at all our sites. And so these are really sort of fresh faced, um, dentists. [00:05:25] And I teach them at undergraduate level. So most of the time and I can understand by [00:05:30] the time they qualify, they probably haven’t done a lot of, of, of stuff, you know, [00:05:35] 15 extractions, maybe 1 or 2 endos. And so really they come [00:05:40] to me really wanting to get a lot of experience in all aspects of dentistry, [00:05:45] but also to be mentored. So we generally just meet up, I go [00:05:50] through what I offer and that can be Yes. Every month we’ll will have a performance [00:05:55] related meeting. So we can look at how you’re performing from a private [00:06:00] sector, from a UDA perspective, from from a performance perspective, from patient [00:06:05] complaints or whatever that may be. But then also what I’m interested in is how [00:06:10] has the month been? Have you had any ups and downs? What have you enjoyed? What have you disliked? And [00:06:15] as time goes on, you tend to find that some associates will, will, will like a certain [00:06:20] aspect of dentistry more than other aspects.

Nasser Syed: So it could be that they really like oral surgery [00:06:25] or composite bonding. Then we go. Right. Well now you start to enjoy something. Let’s see [00:06:30] how we get better at it. Because once you once you find out what you enjoy, you can now [00:06:35] excel because it now doesn’t become a job or task, it becomes merely a hobby for you. [00:06:40] So we then look at courses and our brothers well connected with people around [00:06:45] the country, so we can direct them to the right people to be taught properly. [00:06:50] And then it’s then putting that in practice. So then the team gets involved. So [00:06:55] say for example they want to do an Onlay. Well [00:07:00] they can go and see a man who’s fantastic or go and see my brother and learn how to do an onlay. [00:07:05] But now the treatment coordinator needs to be needs to ensure that that next [00:07:10] week they’ve got an onlay in their diary because the worst is you learn [00:07:15] a skill and then you haven’t done it in six months time. And then and then you’ve lost all that. [00:07:20]

Payman Langroudi: So you’re not the first to say this to me. And, and but at the same time, it’s not completely [00:07:25] obvious for practices to do that, but it makes so much sense.

Nasser Syed: Yes. [00:07:30]

Payman Langroudi: So much sense. It’s I mean, if the practice can give something back to the associate on top [00:07:35] of the usual stuff, this is amazing.

Nasser Syed: Well that’s it. I think that’s [00:07:40] what young associates want. Yeah, yeah. When you sit down with them, you know, they’re not negotiating [00:07:45] on UDA rates. They’re not negotiating on percentages. They really want to know how [00:07:50] are you going to develop their career? How are you going to make them better? They want something. Right [00:07:55] now you’ve got to then present to them what you’re going to be offering them. Because [00:08:00] there’s a shortage of dentists. Dentists and their associates have got a choice. They can [00:08:05] go to five other different practices. So why are they going to pick you up?

Payman Langroudi: So are you working [00:08:10] at the hospital? Part of that is the recruitment angle that that gives you for finding dentists.

Nasser Syed: It [00:08:15] does help. Yeah. I mean, my one day a week and I say it to my business [00:08:20] partner, you know, I give up one day a week. So it helps with recruitment. Um, because they [00:08:25] get to know me at undergraduate level.

Payman Langroudi: Plus you can pick the best guys as well.

Nasser Syed: Oh, well, [00:08:30] if they stay in Manchester, uh, that might help. Yeah. So.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:08:35] how soon can you tell? Because you’re seeing undergrads. Yeah. How soon can you tell who the stars are going to [00:08:40] be? Very early on or later? Or. And this thing that you’re saying about, [00:08:45] they get to find out what they enjoy. Yeah. How does that take? Because for me, [00:08:50] you enjoy whatever you’re good at.

Nasser Syed: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So in a way, pick something, [00:08:55] anything. Pick it out of the air. Yeah. The only the only caveat I would put to that is oral surgery, because oral [00:09:00] surgery just seems like a different skill skill set, different mindset to all the rest of dentistry. [00:09:05] Yeah. But if you pick Endo, perio, ortho, any of those subjects. Yeah. 100 [00:09:10] practices I want to open or whatever. Sedation, whatever it is. Yeah. The [00:09:15] nervous patient. Yeah. Pick one and go deep into it quickly. And soon you’ll [00:09:20] enjoy it, won’t you?

Nasser Syed: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well, how was it take. How long did you tell me? How does it take before they figure [00:09:25] it out? What they enjoy before they start going into it?

Nasser Syed: So, um, I [00:09:30] think that some people pick a speciality that they [00:09:35] want to develop their career into for sometimes the wrong reason. So you have people [00:09:40] who will join us and go and they know I do implants and they’ll go, oh, I want to be an implantologist. [00:09:45] So I go, okay, tell me about. What does an Implantologist do? Tell me the skill set [00:09:50] required and they get stumped. They don’t have an answer to that question, so they haven’t. They haven’t looked [00:09:55] into it. But what they see is maybe price tags, you know, whatever and [00:10:00] so on and so forth. So I’m not interested in that side I’m interested [00:10:05] in. Look, I need you to do lots of everything to start off with because only and only [00:10:10] then will you start to think, oh, I really enjoy that. And I say, look, you’ll get a feeling [00:10:15] when you see your day list the next day and you’ll see a certain treatment in there, and it will put a smile on [00:10:20] your face and then you go then that’s a feeling that I want to develop. To [00:10:25] answer your question about the undergraduates, I get undergraduates from fourth year, so I don’t get anyone [00:10:30] younger.

Nasser Syed: But why? Why? I want to see from someone who [00:10:35] I think I can develop is somewhere. You tell them what to do. They listen, [00:10:40] they reflect, and they act on it. Okay, so if I tell them how to use a cupola [00:10:45] and to extract that operates, and I give them the technique. The ones [00:10:50] that really I can see that could go far, or I believe I could, [00:10:55] I could take him to a, you know, a higher places when they, they [00:11:00] take that on and I see them do it and there’s a lot of time you tell them how to use it and [00:11:05] they’ve, they’ve either not digested that information and they don’t effectively [00:11:10] perform it. And you think, well, you’ve not listened to what I’ve just said. So then you could say it twice or a third [00:11:15] time or a fourth time, and then you’d get into a point where they’re still not doing what you can say. So the, the, [00:11:20] the student who picks that up really quickly and can act on it, you think. Right. [00:11:25] Yeah. You’re you’re listening, you’re reflecting and you’re acting. And I think I can do something with that.

Payman Langroudi: Some people are more [00:11:30] coachable than others. Right. But you’re saying that’s a key thing? Coachability is [00:11:35] a key thing. The only one thing I’d say is there’s a lot of people who in university are, you [00:11:40] know, not the most serious people. And then when they start working, they [00:11:45] suddenly switch.

Nasser Syed: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I get that. You see that? And by the way, the other way around as well, people who are [00:11:50] very good in university and then come to work and not very good. Yeah. They like institutions [00:11:55] and rules and things like that. That’s the only caveat.

Nasser Syed: No. Absolutely. And, you know, [00:12:00] it’s not a proven fast rule. You know, it depends.

Payman Langroudi: But you’ve been doing it for a while. So you kind of know. [00:12:05]

Nasser Syed: Yes. Yeah. And you can sort of pick it up. And you, you know.

Payman Langroudi: How long does [00:12:10] it take before they figure out what they like.

Nasser Syed: So that also depends. That can be that can vary. [00:12:15]

Payman Langroudi: A couple of years longer.

Nasser Syed: I’ve had dentists who joined me at PhD plus one and they go, I know what I want to [00:12:20] be. You know, I want to be a super duper prosthodontist. Right. And they are [00:12:25] switched on and they’re booked on the right courses and they’ve gone to see the right people.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what I’m saying. That’s what I’m saying. [00:12:30] Just pick something. Go. Yeah. I’m even saying at dental school pick something.

Nasser Syed: Yeah, absolutely. [00:12:35] But I would say out of all the associates I meet, 90% of [00:12:40] them are going, I don’t know, I don’t I don’t know, right?

Payman Langroudi: But the advice people give here [00:12:45] is do five years of NHS. Get [00:12:50] your mileage on the NHS, get your 10,000 hours and your experience. [00:12:55] And I just see that as a, as a D sort of skilling period. [00:13:00] In a way you learn how to do things quickly and all that. Yeah. But that’s [00:13:05] the advice, right? Do a few years on the NHS and figure out what you like and then start. And [00:13:10] my my point. No, just just go say Endo in the third [00:13:15] year of dental school. Start seeing endo wherever you look. Go on courses on [00:13:20] Endo by the fourth and fifth year of dental school. Go to America for your for your whatever. [00:13:25] Uh, elective on endo with the world’s best endodontist. Come [00:13:30] straight back and go on an endo program and come out as an endodontist, having done no fillings [00:13:35] at all. Yeah. There’s nothing wrong with that.

Nasser Syed: No there’s not.

Payman Langroudi: And that is the American way, by [00:13:40] the way. Like, I know people who’ve gone from here qualified the very next day. Got into [00:13:45] pros program in Harvard. Okay. Yeah. Without even doing a day of dentistry.

Nasser Syed: Risky, [00:13:50] though, right?

Payman Langroudi: No. Don’t worry. At the end of his program in Harvard, they’ll make him a safe prosthodontist. [00:13:55]

Nasser Syed: I get that, but is it is risky.

Payman Langroudi: And it might have been the wrong move. Yes, [00:14:00] but this guy’s been focusing on it for three years already.

Nasser Syed: And there is a small percentage [00:14:05] of people who are that focussed and know what they want. Right. But I would say the majority don’t. [00:14:10] And I think when you say sort of going into most of our practices are have an NHS contract. [00:14:15] So they, so we, we tell them right. Exactly what you say, come in and do some [00:14:20] NHS dentistry. But I don’t have the thing about they have to [00:14:25] be quick and they have to get loads of udas. I keep them on a very low UDA target and to be fair, [00:14:30] they ask for not many udas.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s time.

Nasser Syed: It’s time. Look, [00:14:35] every patient that comes through your door is an opportunity. You spend time [00:14:40] with them, you educate them. And that might be through scans, photos, X-rays. [00:14:45] And so every one of our surgeries have a big, massive TV screen in front of the [00:14:50] front of the chair. And these are predominantly NHS practices. But the thought [00:14:55] process is they come in and you educate them about the problem and you tell them the solution, [00:15:00] and that takes time. That doesn’t take five minutes, that doesn’t take ten minutes. I’m sorry. So [00:15:05] yes, you’re not going to do many udas, but at least you’re going to start to practice dentistry in the way [00:15:10] I think it should be practised. Right. Um, and so in that way, we, we don’t we have [00:15:15] very large practices. So there we have 112 surgeries. So really [00:15:20] we can reduce the amount of udas each surgery has to perform to meet contracts. So that’s how we [00:15:25] sort of look at it like that.

Payman Langroudi: So then with all of that in mind, [00:15:30] how has your career progressed into these practices? [00:15:35]

Chez Bright: In a pretty big way. So, um, so I [00:15:40] joined NASA two years ago, but before I joined NASA, um, I was a TCO [00:15:45] and a business development for a smaller practice. So I’d kind of reached my scope [00:15:50] because it was only a small practice, and it was just. Yeah, there wasn’t anything else to do. Um, [00:15:55] NASA obviously has many, many projects, so his [00:16:00] brain is like a minefield. Um, but it’s really interesting and I’ve [00:16:05] learned so much just in a short space of time, and there’s just so many different [00:16:10] projects to sort of get stuck into.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re working on several of his [00:16:15] projects?

Chez Bright: Yeah, yeah, NASA keeps me busy. Yeah.

Nasser Syed: It’s like my right [00:16:20] hand, uh, lady too. Yeah. So she, uh, she she she joined me two years [00:16:25] ago. I think I was at a point where, um, so my business partner [00:16:30] had, um, two pass at the time, and, uh, and [00:16:35] I didn’t have one, uh, and he just sat me down and he goes, what are you doing? And I said, I [00:16:40] don’t feel like I need one. He goes, you do. And then he said, why? What’s [00:16:45] stopping you? And I thought, well, look, it’s the extra cost. I’ve got to pay this and I’ve got to pay that. He goes, he just said to me, he [00:16:50] goes, do you believe in yourself? And I said, and I just thought and reflect. [00:16:55] And I thought, actually, he’s got a point. If I believe myself, I’d need these people around me. [00:17:00] So I said, yeah, nervously said, yeah. So. And then from that point, [00:17:05] I’ve just, uh, you know, uh, I’ve put an advert out. We met, we sort of [00:17:10] got on. Um, I think that’s a really important feature, just being able to get on, have a conversation. Um, [00:17:15] and then, yeah, it’s two years later, we’ve done several other things, and I don’t think I would have [00:17:20] been able to achieve it without her.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s go through that process then. You know, let’s say there’s a new project. [00:17:25] Yeah. What should we call it? One of the practices you want to introduce [00:17:30] SEO services into it, let’s say.

Nasser Syed: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: And what do you say how [00:17:35] often do you check in? I mean, have you got a process or is it [00:17:40] something that you sit down for a coffee and a dinner and explain it to her, and then let her get on with it? [00:17:45] Yeah. Is that kind of more.

Nasser Syed: It is. It is like that. So we’ll I’ll have an idea and [00:17:50] it might even be loose in my head. I haven’t put it together. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Ideas are like that. [00:17:55]

Nasser Syed: Yeah. Absolutely. And it’s a bit of mish mash. And then really I’ll sit down with, uh, [00:18:00] with Ches and I’ve got my practice manager called Artie, and I’ll just. I’ll [00:18:05] just talk it out. Yeah. Right. And at any point in the.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of like a brainstorming. [00:18:10]

Nasser Syed: Brainstorm, I.

Payman Langroudi: And they input their bits.

Nasser Syed: I like whiteboards. Yeah. Right. So I’ll [00:18:15] have an all practice with whiteboards everywhere. So and I’ll start writing things off and [00:18:20] I’ll start spider diagramming and I’ll go add in whenever, whenever. And I’m really keen to get [00:18:25] their opinion. Um, and because it’s going to be things that I have not thought about. Yeah. And then we’ll [00:18:30] sort of come out, we’ll come out with it. And I think come out of it. We come out with a list of tasks, and [00:18:35] by the end of that meeting, we’ve got at least 1 to 4, 1 to 5, whatever it may be. Um, and, [00:18:40] and then we sort of build it from there, and then. Yeah, I do then leave them quite independent at that point, [00:18:45] uh, they can check in with check in with me and go, look, I’m doing this, I’m doing that. [00:18:50] And and I might ask the question where we’re up to with this, but otherwise I sort of [00:18:55] like to leave them to it. So they’ve got that freedom.

Payman Langroudi: See? Look, that’s what [00:19:00] I do. Yeah. Same thing, but I feel like I’m bad at it. Yeah. My business partner, he’s [00:19:05] very process orientated. Yeah. Okay. So he’ll say this is what success looks like. [00:19:10] Okay. These are the milestones towards success. Yeah. Um, when will [00:19:15] we get to milestone one. Let’s let’s make them two week periods. Yeah. [00:19:20] Then they’ll have a sprint to milestone one. At the end of milestone one they’ll meet and then they’ll say okay, milestone [00:19:25] two is another two week sprint. And along the way he incorporates like changes [00:19:30] in the thing and. Yeah. And and then you know by the fourth week they’ve they’ve done [00:19:35] so much going and the person knows what success looks like. I think with me and you, [00:19:40] our goals are too lofty. Yeah. Yeah. I want to do a massive first time ever [00:19:45] event in London. Yeah. That’s a lofty goal. Yeah. My partner keeps these things quite small. [00:19:50] Quite easy. Yeah. But then he. He does go forward along the way. [00:19:55] But the thing is, you’ve got to turn up to those meetings yourself. Yeah. Yeah. And of course [00:20:00] you do. Yes. Um, and just that for me, is a nightmare. Yeah. [00:20:05] Just turning up to that meeting. I hate meetings. Yeah.

[ALL]: Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah. [00:20:10]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Different types of brains. Yeah. Is your is your other partner much more sort of process orientated, organised [00:20:15] guy like.

Nasser Syed: Um, I wouldn’t say it was organised.

[ALL]: Um.

Nasser Syed: You’d [00:20:20] hate me for saying that, but. Yeah, I sort of have to drag them along sometimes. Um, I [00:20:25] think he’s probably a bit more process driven than I am. I can’t be like that. I don’t think [00:20:30] my brain operates in that way. Um, and I, I would, I would actually like a bit [00:20:35] of that. You know what you just said there? I’d love a bit of that, because that I think sometimes [00:20:40] our projects can sometimes slow with no defined dates and so on and so forth. [00:20:45] And you think, where are we up to with that? And then another idea comes into our heads and then we’ll start, we’ll [00:20:50] start going into another.

Payman Langroudi: Thing is the funny thing is though for putting in [00:20:55] three implants. Yeah, you’ve got a complete process that you stick to step by step [00:21:00] by step by step. Yeah. But for this other stuff, yeah.

Chez Bright: Why wouldn’t you have that routine.

Payman Langroudi: In [00:21:05] place for. But I totally get it, man. I totally get it. I was the same kind of dentist. I wouldn’t do [00:21:10] dentistry like that. Yeah, because you can’t do that.

[ALL]: Yeah, yeah. [00:21:15] Things will go wrong pretty quickly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which of these hats do you like the [00:21:20] most? Or do you love the fact that you’re doing so much different stuff all the time?

Nasser Syed: I do like that. I do like [00:21:25] the variety of what I do now, I don’t think I think the idea of going back [00:21:30] to be a dentist and go back to one surgery and a list of patients. I think, [00:21:35] um, I would do it if I need to do it. So of all my plans, go to pot.

[ALL]: Yeah. [00:21:40]

Nasser Syed: Um, and, uh, have to put the house on on, on on sale then. [00:21:45] Yeah. I’m ready to lift up my sleeves and get on and do some dentistry, but I think, um, I [00:21:50] really enjoy what I do now. I my, my week varies, my [00:21:55] days vary. Um, I can be in one place and then have to be in another place. [00:22:00] Um, and I enjoy it. I enjoy that element of it.

Payman Langroudi: You still in Liverpool? [00:22:05]

Nasser Syed: Still in Liverpool. Born, born and raised in Liverpool. Scouser. Um. [00:22:10] And yeah, stayed stayed at home during university, which I loved.

Payman Langroudi: Are you older than your brother? [00:22:15]

Nasser Syed: No, my brother’s nine years older than me.

Payman Langroudi: Nine years.

[ALL]: Old. Yeah. So yeah. I’ll [00:22:20] take that as a compliment. I [00:22:25] love that, actually. Yeah. If he’s.

Payman Langroudi: So what [00:22:30] was it about your house that made like, you guys not only become dentists, but also like dentists [00:22:35] with an interest. Your brothers. One of the country’s leaders on occlusion. You’re very [00:22:40] good at. You know, the bits that you’re doing.

Nasser Syed: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Was it. Was it a house of excellence? Was it was [00:22:45] it like there was no choice but to be good at everything?

[ALL]: No.

Nasser Syed: Not necessarily. I wouldn’t [00:22:50] say that. I think I think, you know, it was a traditional Asian household. You know, your [00:22:55] parents wanted you to be a doctor, dentist or a lawyer.

[ALL]: So have.

Payman Langroudi: You got kids, by.

[ALL]: The way? [00:23:00] Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Have you told them to become doctors and dentists?

Nasser Syed: Um, I’ve got two boys, uh, 15 and 13. My. [00:23:05] My eldest is doing GCSEs at the moment. Um, I’d like him to [00:23:10] do dentistry because I. I’ve enjoyed it, but I don’t think that’s fair. [00:23:15] Um, so he’s got freedom. But, um, I think what he [00:23:20] says to me, he wants to be a dentist, but I don’t know whether that’s something he wants me to. He’s saying something [00:23:25] I want to hear. So there’s still years, Yes, I mean 15. I mean, what do you know, 15? [00:23:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. My daughter is 16, and we’re kind of very gently pushing her to become [00:23:35] a dentist.

Nasser Syed: Okay, interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Because both of us are dentists and and just be a shame if [00:23:40] one of our kids doesn’t. Yeah. You know, they get massive advantages.

Nasser Syed: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Um, at [00:23:45] the same time, this notion. I hear a lot of people in this room sit here and tell me, yeah, the kid can do whatever they like, but [00:23:50] most of the time they haven’t got any idea.

Nasser Syed: Yeah, yeah. They need guidance. They need need [00:23:55] to be directed in a certain way. And you’re right. A second generation in the same field, they [00:24:00] can really they can really build on and take it to another level and you’ll, you’ll, you know, you’ve [00:24:05] seen people who are second generation dentists or third generation, you know, they can take their business [00:24:10] to a different level.

Payman Langroudi: At the same time. My daughter’s 16, right. So by the time she becomes dentists, we’re [00:24:15] talking eight years time.

[ALL]: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Eight years time, man. [00:24:20] Robots are.

[ALL]: Gonna be.

Payman Langroudi: Like, there’s gonna be a totally different world. Yeah, it [00:24:25] really is. Have you seen those robots with their hands? They’re like making other robots.

[ALL]: Yeah. Yeah. [00:24:30]

Payman Langroudi: And imagine, with the ChatGPT of eight years time in its head. Yeah.

Chez Bright: We’re [00:24:35] talking about this before, wasn’t we? About the world of AI and how sort of dominant [00:24:40] it is now?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chez Bright: Um, and we were just saying that, like, we’re kind of feeding. [00:24:45] How old are you? Um. 38.

Payman Langroudi: So you remember you just about [00:24:50] the 2001.com bubble?

Chez Bright: Um, yeah. [00:24:55]

Payman Langroudi: Just about. You were like you were a child, but I remember you were younger than me. Yeah, I [00:25:00] remember it. It was. It was just the exact same thing. Yeah. Any company that had.com written on [00:25:05] the end of it was, was a massive, like, investment thing. Everyone was buying their [00:25:10] shares and everything and then most of them went bust. But then when it happened, [00:25:15] those six or 8 or 10, that really made it, it was even bigger than [00:25:20] we thought it was going to be. Right. So I think we’re in that phase of AI. That [00:25:25] it’s anything that says AI investors are in. Everyone’s in. Um, but [00:25:30] when it really comes, like, I don’t know, man, it’s scary. I think even they [00:25:35] themselves are scared of it. The people making it are scared of it.

Nasser Syed: And I think you can see why. I mean, [00:25:40] really, um, and we were saying this, you know, is it really going to dumb [00:25:45] down the population?

Payman Langroudi: No, no, no, I don’t think that. I don’t think that what I think is that, you know, humanity’s [00:25:50] in the end, constantly trying to sort of do each other in, get each other’s resources. [00:25:55] Yeah. And now this race to make the best AI is really a race [00:26:00] to dominate other countries. Yeah. Yeah. So that [00:26:05] risk, it’s like, you know, like the attack. Certainly we’ll all be paying £200 [00:26:10] a month for AI protection for our house.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, because, you know, it’s something I could [00:26:15] come and destroy you. The one. The one that makes the the the real [00:26:20] super brain. He’s the one going to be charging us £300 a month for security.

[ALL]: Yeah, [00:26:25] yeah, that’s a good business, isn’t it? Yeah.

Chez Bright: You’ve just given him another [00:26:30] idea.

[ALL]: Yeah. No.

Payman Langroudi: No, but, but but you know, I’ve been discussing with my team [00:26:35] see these pictures that you can see here.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: These are humans. Yeah. These are pictures [00:26:40] of people. Models. Yeah. There was a creative director. One of the world’s top photographers [00:26:45] took the pictures. We had to get a studio to rent the studio, the hair and makeup, [00:26:50] clothes, the all the different types of creatives. Yeah, yeah, it was a massive [00:26:55] cost and hassle. Then I said to my team, obviously we’re never going to have to [00:27:00] do this again. And all of them were like, no, no, no, no, we’ve got to AI, you can tell [00:27:05] and all this sort of thing.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I told my team, listen man, it’s not AI is not going to take your job, [00:27:10] but someone who knows AI is going to that. That is real. Yeah, yeah. And then the jobs [00:27:15] that will be in proper trouble are the ones where there’s no elasticity of demand. [00:27:20] Yeah, yeah. So something that can be done. My brother’s a radiologist. Ai can read [00:27:25] X-rays, but they’re asking for a thousand times more X-rays now because they can do them [00:27:30] more quickly. Yeah. So that’s just a growing thing. Yeah, but if your job is to sit [00:27:35] and answer the phone or be in front of a computer doing a task, that demand [00:27:40] side isn’t going to increase.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You’re an all sorts of trouble.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And what’s going [00:27:45] to happen in the future? It’s very, very difficult to think about as far as jobs.

[ALL]: It is.

Nasser Syed: Um, [00:27:50] I’d like to think that she’s maybe slightly protected to a certain degree. Maybe it takes a little [00:27:55] bit longer before AI take over it.

[ALL]: But I.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t think a lot. Yeah, there’s something for our kids. [00:28:00] Yes. Yeah. In eight, ten years time.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There will be a treatment coordinator type person. [00:28:05] Yeah, and a machine. And [00:28:10] my brother says it’s amazing in radiology right now because the AI is reading the scan. Yeah, but from the regulatory perspective, [00:28:15] the doctor has to give it the okay, okay. So he’s saying it’s amazing because you’re getting [00:28:20] paid a lot more because you’re doing you’re okaying a lot more scans because the AI is reading the main bit of the scan, [00:28:25] you’re not going to miss things.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Nasser Syed: And the AI is learning each time it reads a scan, right? So it’s [00:28:30] getting better and.

[ALL]: Better and better. Yeah.

Nasser Syed: It’s crazy.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Nasser Syed: I [00:28:35] don’t think I’d ask my kid to be a radiologist though, but I think.

[ALL]: But yeah, but otherwise. [00:28:40]

Nasser Syed: Yeah. Um, yeah. I think, you know, you build something, you want to pass it on, you want to preserve [00:28:45] it. Um, and so, yeah, it would be nice, like your daughter. My son. It would be nice for them. [00:28:50]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, okay. So tell me that. So is that what you’re trying to do? You haven’t. You’re not thinking of [00:28:55] selling this business and.

[ALL]: No, I.

Nasser Syed: Don’t take any card off [00:29:00] the table. Yeah. Um, so, you know, it may get to the point that I still sell the businesses, [00:29:05] and I, you know, if he is a dentist, I can help him. I can help him open one. [00:29:10] I’d be more keen on that. To be fair, he can use all my contacts know how and experience. [00:29:15] But whether someone wants to inherit a business or whether they want to [00:29:20] do it their own way. I’d like to think he’d have his own one, his own freedom of doing it his way. And [00:29:25] I could certainly help him with that. But but otherwise, to give it to him maybe [00:29:30] a little bit too easy for him. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know Anushka? Uh, um. [00:29:35]

[ALL]: Yes. Uh.

Nasser Syed: The, um. Corporate. [00:29:40]

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The mirror.

[ALL]: Mirror? Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: She wants to. She’s a third 42 [00:29:45] practices.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And she wants to at 50. Stop and give it to her children. [00:29:50]

Nasser Syed: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So none of them are. None of them are dentists.

Nasser Syed: Is [00:29:55] one of them.

Payman Langroudi: Was in dental school. Yeah.

[ALL]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So one’s.

Nasser Syed: Getting.

[ALL]: Better, but. [00:30:00]

Payman Langroudi: No, but what I’m saying she completely ruled out selling the business.

[ALL]: Really?

Payman Langroudi: She, you know, [00:30:05] she has that succession plan.

Nasser Syed: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re not at that level.

[ALL]: No. Well. [00:30:10]

Nasser Syed: Well we’re not at that sort of numbers.

[ALL]: No, no.

Payman Langroudi: But that, that level of thinking like that, you definitely want [00:30:15] to sell or you definitely want to pass it on?

[ALL]: No.

Nasser Syed: No, no. Definite in anything. [00:30:20] Uh, no cards off the table. So it may be that, you know, you don’t know what’s going [00:30:25] to happen, but, um, my son might want one particular practice, or we. He might not. [00:30:30] I’m. I be my personal, um, opinion would be. I’d like to think [00:30:35] he could. He could do something on his own with my support and help. So, um, set [00:30:40] him up something like a squat or something like that, but, um, but, yeah, rather than just passing [00:30:45] him the keys over, I’m sure would shy away.

[ALL]: Too easy. It is, it is. [00:30:50]

Nasser Syed: And also, you know, um, you want to realise all your hard work that you’ve put in as [00:30:55] well. And, um, sometimes you need to sell to do that. Um.

[ALL]: Yeah. [00:31:00]

Nasser Syed: And then from there then with that, you can help your children [00:31:05] in different ways.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the sedation course.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Nasser Syed: So the sedation [00:31:10] course I set up in 2015, um, it was just at the time when the new [00:31:15] ISO standards came out. So it was it was probably awful timing to set up [00:31:20] a sedation course, to be fair. Um, but we we set it up. I saw I was doing [00:31:25] a lot of sedation, so I was doing about 20 sedations a week, uh, in secondary and [00:31:30] primary care. So I was, I was getting through some significant numbers and I, you know, I was, [00:31:35] I was, I was good at it. Um, and I was teaching at the dental hospital at the time, um, [00:31:40] and I thought, well, um, why not just think about setting up? Of course, because the [00:31:45] nearest course was, I think was in Yorkshire. There was one um, there was sort of [00:31:50] something in Liverpool at the time, but there was certainly nothing in Manchester.

[ALL]: So.

Nasser Syed: Um, [00:31:55] we set it up. We went through the application of getting it accredited through the stack. [00:32:00] Uh, that was a bit of a rigmarole. They lost my application first time round. I [00:32:05] had to ring them a few months later. They then, um, you know, within six months. So thankfully, [00:32:10] I got accredited. And then every six months, we take on a cohort [00:32:15] of dentists and dental nurses. Uh, and that can be the beginners, [00:32:20] completely new to sedation. And then we train to spend six months training [00:32:25] them to an independent practitioner stage.

Payman Langroudi: Um, how many times a month?

Nasser Syed: So [00:32:30] they the course will consist of, uh, if you’re a complete beginner, it [00:32:35] will consist of five, five days. Uh, one day is in top dental school in Manchester [00:32:40] called Mondak. It’s a lovely lecture facility. Um, and we’ll do all the theory the [00:32:45] second day they come and see me out in practice and we book in live consultations. Because consultation [00:32:50] is key. It’s how you save your patients out. So the patients that you’re willing to treat [00:32:55] and the willing patients you’re not willing to treat. But more importantly, why? Why are you willing why are you not willing? And [00:33:00] that’s what we’re trying to get across. And also it’s the experience. You’ve got the team supporting [00:33:05] you and the practice you’re in. It’s not just about you. It’s got to be you. You know, there’s certain [00:33:10] sedations that I will do in certain settings, but I wouldn’t do it in other settings. But I’m the constant.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:33:15] are we talking inhalation solution as well as IV?

Nasser Syed: This is all intravenous sedation with single drug. Yeah [00:33:20] with single drug inhalation. Sedation I did do that as a senior house officer. Um, [00:33:25] many years ago. I think I inhaled more than nitrous oxide inhalation. I [00:33:30] came up with this really bad headache by the end of the day. Um, and, [00:33:35] you know, it’s it’s quite, um, hypnotic and it’s suggestive, and there’s a whole story [00:33:40] that you have to give with it. Um, where?

Payman Langroudi: Give me the typical avatar of the delegate [00:33:45] and the patient. So the type of delegate that comes, are they looking to [00:33:50] sedate and treat the same patient, or are they looking to go around helping other dentists for sedation? [00:33:55]

Nasser Syed: Um, they mainly come to treat their own patients.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s like an [00:34:00] implantologist or something. He wants to learn that.

Nasser Syed: Yeah, a lot of them are implantologists. So they’ll, [00:34:05] they’ll, they’ll come to me knowing that they’ve, they’ve met patients where local anaesthetic is just [00:34:10] not good enough. Yeah. Uh, and rather than the hassle of trying to find a, you know, installation [00:34:15] just to come to your practice, which is a hassle, there’s very few of them are about. Yeah. Um, they [00:34:20] thought, well, I might as well get trained in it myself. But, you know, there’s certain cases that where you still [00:34:25] have to bring a separate sedationist, you know? So, um, yes, the majority of cases they can be a sedation [00:34:30] operator, but sometimes you just have to be an operator and bring a separate sedationist. [00:34:35] And then we also get that across during the course as well. So um, by the second day they’ve [00:34:40] done the consultation and then they spend three days with me where I get through 20 cases. [00:34:45] So I supply all the cases. The all patients that are from our practices, um, [00:34:50] generally need oral surgery procedures because that’s what I do. And, um, they come in and [00:34:55] it’s all prepped for them. They, they do about seven per day and they’ll leave about 2021 [00:35:00] cases by the end of three days.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re there. So it’s all cool.

Nasser Syed: Yeah. Well I’m mentoring through the whole [00:35:05] case. So there’s a lot of we do a lot of reflection after each case.

Payman Langroudi: And so for five days [00:35:10] you’re trained.

Nasser Syed: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s good.

Nasser Syed: Yeah, it’s quite efficient. It costs, [00:35:15] um. It costs for the full five days. It’s just a little over £6,000. [00:35:20] Yeah, yeah, but it’s a [00:35:25] supply. Supplying the cases is the hardest thing about the course because you’re getting 20 patients [00:35:30] per day. Per delegate. Yeah. Um, you know, thankfully I’ve got another team, um, that, [00:35:35] that run the course, which is actually led by my sister. Um, she runs the sedation [00:35:40] course for me. She’s a dental nurse. Um, so she’s, uh, [00:35:45] she’s worked with me in rehab for years. Okay. Um, and so it was a complete no brainer when [00:35:50] she, um, wanted to help support the course. So she she runs it. So she’s [00:35:55] the contact person. All the dentists contact her.

Payman Langroudi: And two days a week, you’re busy on that? [00:36:00]

Nasser Syed: Two days a week? Yeah. Yeah. It’s usually Friday. Saturday.

Nasser Syed: Because a lot of people don’t want to take time out of their working [00:36:05] week. So they’ll come and see me on a Saturday.

Payman Langroudi: So, look, just I’m. You don’t have to answer [00:36:10] this question here, but what’s your motivation for doing this?

Nasser Syed: I [00:36:15] enjoy teaching, I enjoy taking someone from [00:36:20] not having experience with something to someone who’s competent. [00:36:25]

Payman Langroudi: Teaching is fun. Teaching is fun.

Nasser Syed: And the variety of people that you meet. [00:36:30] Yeah. You know, I’ve met people on the course that, you know, they’ve they’re, [00:36:35] you know, cryptocurrency traders. Yeah. Um, and, [00:36:40] and so you’ll end up talking to them and you’ll end up learning a lot, a lot of stuff from them. You know, I’m teaching you [00:36:45] sedation, but you’re giving me so much in return, and it’s so much fun that it’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Plus [00:36:50] their implant guys. So you’re networking on that side, right? You’re, you know, you’re learning from each other.

Nasser Syed: Yeah. [00:36:55] That’s it. We can talk about cases. Um, a lot of them want some surgery experience as well. [00:37:00] So, you know, when they’re actually doing the cases it could be an impacted wisdom tooth that’s in, you know, and they go [00:37:05] well how do you tackle that. And then we’ll go through that as well. So yes, you’re getting the sedation experience. But [00:37:10] we can we can do some flap designs, we can do some bone removal, we can do some sectioning. And [00:37:15] so they get that aspect of it as well, which I think they really enjoy. But if a if a delegate comes to me and goes, [00:37:20] look, I only want to focus on the sedation. You do the surgery, that’s cool as well. But if they go look, I wouldn’t [00:37:25] mind getting my hands a bit dirty as well while I’m here. I’m happy with that. So it can be [00:37:30] sort of a combination training session as well.

Payman Langroudi: So as if you’re not [00:37:35] busy enough, you then come out with this idea of sort of renting out [00:37:40] Dental rooms to sort of super associates.

Nasser Syed: Yeah. [00:37:45] So, um.

Payman Langroudi: What’s it called? Tell me the.

Nasser Syed: Name. It’s called hire a dental [00:37:50] surgery. Com so, so we’ve abbreviated [00:37:55] it to HDS. Um, so when we talk about it, we say HDS, don’t we share? [00:38:00] It’s a dental surgery. Com.

Payman Langroudi: We buy any car. That’s that [00:38:05] method of marketing.

Nasser Syed: Yeah. That’s it. Yeah. Um. Which I realise you couldn’t sort of paint or you couldn’t [00:38:10] trademark, but, uh. Um, but anyway.

Payman Langroudi: So there’s a building.

Nasser Syed: Yeah. [00:38:15] So we’ve purchased a practice. Um, we purchased a practice in Hale Village in Cheshire. Uh, [00:38:20] so a really lovely area of the world. And it’s a force. It’s going to be a [00:38:25] force surgery practice. It’s two surgeries currently, but we’re doing some building work. It’s going to be for surgery [00:38:30] practice. It’s going to have cbct. It’s going to have intraoral scanners. It’s going to have a microscope. It’s going to have, uh, [00:38:35] you know, whatever you, wherever you need. Um, and really, it’s for [00:38:40] the idea for those, as you said, you call them super associates, for those associates who are able to [00:38:45] accrue their own patients. Right. They’ve got a good social media following Facebook, Instagram, [00:38:50] TikTok, whatever it may be. And they need a site, right. So what they’re doing currently possibly [00:38:55] is they’re going back to their principle led practice and they’re giving a significant portion percentage [00:39:00] away. Um, but really they just need a facility and they may not want to own a practice. [00:39:05] They may not want to have the headache of owning a practice and all the HR issues, hiring, [00:39:10] compliance or everything that goes with running a practice. Uh, they just want to focus [00:39:15] on their dentistry. And so what we what we thought was, well, we’ll give them a facility. So it would be for [00:39:20] surgeries that they can warm surgery, they can hire out, they can bring their patients to that surgery. [00:39:25] They can treat their patients, they can take their own payments, and they just pay for a fee for hiring. [00:39:30]

Payman Langroudi: And it’s the idea that the the term can be how short? Like, how can I hire it [00:39:35] for a day?

Nasser Syed: Yeah, you can hire it for a session.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, nice.

Nasser Syed: Yeah. So you can do an am [00:39:40] PM session. You can do a full day. You can do multiple bookings. You can do a weekend booking. [00:39:45] You can do an evening booking. So there’s real flexibility. And also I’m not interested in buying [00:39:50] credits. You know they have to buy upfront ten credits and use it. I’m not interested in that. Whenever [00:39:55] you want it, use it. You know it’s there for you. So you you pay [00:40:00] for when you you’ve got a patient that you know you’re doing composite bonding, or you’re doing full arch implant [00:40:05] work and you’ve got a patient sitting there, you know you’re going to turn over a significant profit, but you need a [00:40:10] facility. Well, go and hire it. So you’ll. You’ll go on the website and you can do it all online. Uh, [00:40:15] there is a bit of onboarding that needs to be done. So obviously there’s going to be some compliance checks that [00:40:20] you’ll need to go through. But we’ve we’re we’re in the process of finalising.

Payman Langroudi: That the [00:40:25] sort of regulatory nightmare of it. What hoops have you had to jump through to sort of figure [00:40:30] that out. Like the CQC bit.

Nasser Syed: Yeah. So we got a QC registration [00:40:35] and our, our statement of purpose states of exactly how we’re going to utilise the surgery. [00:40:40] So they’re well aware that um, that people are going to reside with [00:40:45] on with our, within our CQC registration. But if that is the case then there’s [00:40:50] certain things that we’re going to have to do. So we’re going to have to perform audits and we’re going to have to do checks, and they’re going to have to do [00:40:55] certain things. And as long as they’re willing to do that, then they can reside within our CQC registration. If [00:41:00] they get to a point where they’re that super duper dentist and they’re accumulating. [00:41:05] You know, 4 or 5 days a week, patients of the and they’re doing lots. I would probably [00:41:10] personally recommend them to get their own CQC registration at that point. I think that that makes sense. And [00:41:15] we can also help with that if they need if they need that. Um, but in within [00:41:20] they can reside within our CQC registration and we have got that approved.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:41:25] you’ve done your sums right to make this work and to undercut existing [00:41:30] practices, you’re going to have to have a rate of it being filled up. Right. [00:41:35]

Nasser Syed: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And and so your, your challenge now is to get people to take [00:41:40] this on.

Nasser Syed: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Right. So so I mean are you clear on that. How [00:41:45] how how full it has to be. But I’m not saying tell me but yeah.

[ALL]: No, we are we’re clear. We’re [00:41:50] clear on that. Yeah.

Nasser Syed: And it’s not as much as you would think, to be fair.

[ALL]: Um, you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Charging a lot [00:41:55] per hour.

Nasser Syed: No. Well, we’re charging £500, uh, for a full day.

Payman Langroudi: For [00:42:00] full day.

Nasser Syed: Session, now £300 for a session. Um, we’re trying to keep [00:42:05] this quite economical. Um, I mean, the associates can bring will bring their own equipment because these composite [00:42:10] bonding guys and these implant guys, they bring their own stuff, right? They know. They know what composite they like, and they [00:42:15] know what implants they want to use. I’m not I’m not here to to to supply any of that stuff.

Payman Langroudi: But are you supplying basic [00:42:20] composites and all that we’re supplying?

Nasser Syed: We’ve got a list of, of an inventory of what [00:42:25] we’re supplying. But it’s basic stuff. You know, Mirror Pro, you know, bibs, glasses, you [00:42:30] know, materials. Uh, materials. No no no no no. Because again, I’m not [00:42:35] second guessing what people want.

[ALL]: Um, and.

Payman Langroudi: Are there any other value adds that you’re providing?

Nasser Syed: Yeah. [00:42:40] So they can if they wanted to store, uh, equipment at the practice, [00:42:45] then they could we provide facility for that. So if they’re using our facility 2 or 3 times a day and [00:42:50] they are 2 or 3 times a week, and they sick and tired of bringing back and forth equipment, you know, they can store [00:42:55] the use of the cbct is obviously chargeable. Then they will have no [00:43:00] motor, will have a surgical motor, will have a microscope, and these are little add ons that they’ll [00:43:05] have to pay for depending on how long they want it, session or full day.

Payman Langroudi: Nothing around. Sort of, uh, [00:43:10] follow up or payments or. No no no no [00:43:15] no reception TCO type support.

[ALL]: No not not yet, not yet.

Nasser Syed: Yeah. [00:43:20] We’re just trying with the idea off the ground. Uh, and then from there, yeah, these things, you [00:43:25] know, if our clients are asking for it, then I’m happy to look into it. Um, but it [00:43:30] may be that they want to deal with a lot of these issues themselves. Yeah, these [00:43:35] are all presumptions they’re making. And I’ve got to prove these presumptions.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But I think it’s it’s probably [00:43:40] clear I don’t know for sure, but I reckon every town will [00:43:45] end up with depending on size of the town. Yeah. Town. Town like Manchester [00:43:50] like South Manchester will end up with at least two of these one, one [00:43:55] basic one and one sort of higher end one.

Nasser Syed: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:44:00] there is space for a higher end one as well where they give you other services, you know, like follow up your patients treatment [00:44:05] plans and, and all of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Someone who wants to be the dentist only.

Nasser Syed: Yeah. [00:44:10]

Payman Langroudi: Um, yeah, I think so now. But whether whether you’re going to be that guy or [00:44:15] not, or whether you’re just happy to do one that works or whatever it is. Yeah. Um, [00:44:20] I think there is going to be demand, right?

Nasser Syed: Yeah. Well, I hope so. And yeah, and I think these [00:44:25] add ons, I mean, we’re looking at other ways of sort of marketing and help supporting dentists [00:44:30] with helping accruing their own patients, because I think that’s going to be a barrier, isn’t it? There’s going to [00:44:35] be a dentist that might not be as hot on, on, on social media platforms, and they [00:44:40] might want some help and support. So that’s another side that’s interesting. That’s a little bit of a side business that we’re [00:44:45] looking at creating. Um, and that’s in its infancy. But yeah, we think that [00:44:50] whatever the problems these people have, these associates have or these dentists have, you [00:44:55] know, we want to help and provide a solution. We’re open to that. Just being another another [00:45:00] meeting with me and Artie to discuss it.

Payman Langroudi: So are you mainly working on this now? [00:45:05]

Chez Bright: It’s been. Yeah, this has been probably one of the busiest projects. Um, [00:45:10] but it’s kind of nice to see it. Um, when we initially started off with the ideas, [00:45:15] it coming to life. So, you know, seeing the site [00:45:20] being built and the website being put together, um, I [00:45:25] mean, we were just talking about sort of the, the points of how the process was going to work [00:45:30] from the dentists and how they were going to operate on the website and how to use it and navigate [00:45:35] around it. And all of that’s kind of come together now, hasn’t it? And everything [00:45:40] that we’ve like, sort of visualised has kind of become a reality.

Nasser Syed: And I think that’s really [00:45:45] nice, isn’t it? You got an idea? We had an idea.

Chez Bright: Yeah.

Nasser Syed: And I think that’s the bit that’s the really exciting [00:45:50] bit of it coming to life. Right. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s just I get a major [00:45:55] boss.

Nasser Syed: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Name something.

Nasser Syed: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then a customer calls up and asks for that thing. [00:46:00]

Nasser Syed: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, we call it enlightened serum. Yeah. That that becomes [00:46:05] a moment where you have to name it. Right? Yeah. You have to get the logo. You have to get the logo. [00:46:10] You have to get everything right. And then three months, six months later, something’s up. I’m looking [00:46:15] for some enlightened serum. Yeah. The thing that actually exists. It came from your head. It’s [00:46:20] a wonderful thing. Yeah.

Nasser Syed: And I think also the other thing that we were chatting on the train here [00:46:25] is actually, um, about mentoring as well, in addition to the hire service. So you’ll [00:46:30] have an associate who might be doing something, um, like a loan [00:46:35] for sort of immediate load sort of thing. And, you know, they might want [00:46:40] someone there by the side of him, um, who’s very experienced. And so we’re also looking at a [00:46:45] side thing where they can we can offer up mentoring services, because in Manchester we’ve got great clinicians [00:46:50] like my brother with pros. We’ve got, um, you know, uh, Professor Julian Yates [00:46:55] for implants. Um, we’ve got Julian, who’s phenomenal. You know, we’ve got [00:47:00] really some top clinicians. I mean, I know I actually listened to his podcast before I came on. I’m [00:47:05] a big fan of I.

Payman Langroudi: Love that guy.

Nasser Syed: He’s a he’s a lovely bloke. Um, and so, [00:47:10] yeah, you know, these people might want to they might want to get a help and support [00:47:15] as well.

Payman Langroudi: So you know what it is like, the value add that you want to put here is [00:47:20] something that’s easy for you to arrange. So what you’re saying there, you’ve got a lot of contacts, specialists [00:47:25] that you can bring in easier than I can for instance here. So so [00:47:30] then you put that value add onto it. Um, but I think the there [00:47:35] might end up being in this business, an element of even attracting people away from other [00:47:40] dentists. And are you expecting nastiness in that respect?

Nasser Syed: Yes. [00:47:45] Um, I think even when I set up my sedation course, it got a bit sort [00:47:50] of, uh, nasty in 2015. Um, you know, people wondering who [00:47:55] I was, why I was setting up, and because they felt, you know, I was encroaching into their market [00:48:00] space. Yeah. You know, and I was a young guy, you know, I was I was at that point, uh, [00:48:05] nine years qualified, you know. So. Yeah. So these guys were, you know, [00:48:10] in their late 40s, you know, so, um, and so, yeah, that doesn’t [00:48:15] deter me. That doesn’t put me off. I think that’s just the nature of the game. Right? When you start to change things and you start [00:48:20] to do things and you start to move forward, there’s always someone, uh.

Payman Langroudi: That might. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s [00:48:25] almost sort of being ready for the fact that that’s going to happen and not being [00:48:30] hurt by it, you know, like.

Nasser Syed: Yeah, I’m fairly I’m fairly thick skinned right [00:48:35] into that sort of stuff. And um, if it, you know, it is going to be the nature. There’s [00:48:40] a lot of things that we’re going to learn. I’m going to have to learn quickly, and there’s going to be a, you know, [00:48:45] certain things that are going to happen that’s not so nice. But I think, you know.

Payman Langroudi: And is your plan if this works to open [00:48:50] lots of them.

Nasser Syed: Yeah. Yeah, I’d like to think so. I’d like to grow up, [00:48:55] you know, in other major cities. Um, you know.

Payman Langroudi: If you’ve got, like, a private [00:49:00] equity guy that you’ve got online that you’re going to put.

[ALL]: No, no. So that’s what.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what you should be doing [00:49:05] now.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Nasser Syed: No I haven’t actually I haven’t got a private equity. Um, I’ve [00:49:10] got some wealthy friends, but whether they, uh, whether they’re interested, um, but, [00:49:15] um, yeah, I, until I, until I prove the concept and I [00:49:20] know it’s working and I can get this a this initial practice is in the right location. It’s a beautiful area. [00:49:25] If I can start to fill up the surgery space and it’s starting to work, then. Yeah, I think I’m going to need some serious [00:49:30] money to help to grow it, because then I’m probably every city with a dental school probably would need one. Yeah, [00:49:35] and that’s probably where I would start.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a funny thing, man, to say, because every city needs everything, [00:49:40] right? You could say, oh, go borrow £50 million and open a cool ping pong bar [00:49:45] in every city. Yeah. Whether it’s going to work or not, it depends on a bunch [00:49:50] of stuff. Yeah, yeah. Um, and you’re particularly strong in Manchester. Right. So is [00:49:55] is it transferable? That’s the key question. Yes, that’s a key. Key, key question. [00:50:00] Like in a town where you don’t know everyone. Yes. Have you can you build the brand to the point that [00:50:05] when the thing touches down, the dentists know what it is?

[ALL]: Exactly. Yeah, that’s [00:50:10] the key.

Payman Langroudi: And my advice is you need some form of virality. Yeah. Um, [00:50:15] and by virality, I’m not just referring to TikTok. [00:50:20] I’m talking about word of mouth virality.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So [00:50:25] what I learned, we enlightened sort of, uh, strapline used [00:50:30] to be B1 guaranteed.

[ALL]: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: That strapline it it [00:50:35] went from mouth to mouth to mouth to mouth. It just went everywhere.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Then after ten years [00:50:40] of that, we thought, oh, we’ll change the strapline. We went to this no ordinary whitening.

[ALL]: Yeah. [00:50:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. That doesn’t travel. Yeah. That that’s why it’s not like one dentist is not going to [00:50:50] say to another dentist, yeah, I love enlighten because it’s no ordinary whitening.

[ALL]: Okay. [00:50:55] Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Although we were at the time we were thinking oh consumers. Consumers. [00:51:00] Yeah. But so, so then you know, right now people talk about [00:51:05] enlighten and they think cost. Yeah. And we want to now change that to [00:51:10] profit.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know at the end of the day yeah it’s a bigger margin. Yeah. Right. [00:51:15] And so now we want but you can’t say profit because you know consumers will [00:51:20] see that on TikTok. Yeah. So now that now we’re having to make like [00:51:25] gated walled off Instagram you know private Instagram [00:51:30] enlightened for professionals that you have to come in with the GDC number so that we can we can [00:51:35] put that in. Yeah. But my point is this virality question, this is this. [00:51:40] When it’s something new, virality is kind of easier to to achieve [00:51:45] than when there’s 20 competitors? Yeah. So I like the name. You know, [00:51:50] we we we buy any car. I like that. There’s something about that.

[ALL]: Yeah. Yeah. [00:51:55]

Payman Langroudi: But something, something something something. Like, what’s the strap? And [00:52:00] like I say, in marketing, you can only get one message through.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: We also, [00:52:05] like, interested in our own business. Yeah. That you think? Oh, I can say I’ve got refrigerated [00:52:10] gel. I’ve got the tightest, but it’s not. Yeah. There’s one message you can get [00:52:15] through and you’ve got the opportunity for that.

Chez Bright: We’ve kind of got one.

Payman Langroudi: What is it? What is it?

Chez Bright: What is it? Be your own [00:52:20] boss.

Payman Langroudi: Be your own.

[ALL]: Boss. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, we we. [00:52:25]

Chez Bright: We’ve got a few to play.

[ALL]: Around.

Chez Bright: With because we we did sort of, um, test the waters a bit on [00:52:30] the strap lines, and we, we, we kind of created the website based on these little punchy [00:52:35] kind of points. Yeah. So and.

[ALL]: I mean.

Nasser Syed: Even to the point we were naming [00:52:40] surgeries and we were calling we were calling surgeries independence.

Chez Bright: It’s all.

Nasser Syed: In freedom, you [00:52:45] know, so it’s based around the fact that, you know, the associates don’t need to be [00:52:50] tied down like.

Chez Bright: There’s no stress associated with it. You know, it’s freedom [00:52:55] and.

[ALL]: It just focuses.

Nasser Syed: Just focus on the dentistry and, and sort [00:53:00] of take care of the rest for you and, and keep, keep the profit, you know, um, [00:53:05] and really that’s that’s. Yeah. So be your own boss. Yeah. I know, thank you for [00:53:10] your advice. I think we probably need to go back to our whiteboard at the practice.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [00:53:15] just the strap line, but I’m talking about everything.

[ALL]: Understand?

Payman Langroudi: Everything. So let’s [00:53:20] say this independence thing is a is a feature. Yeah. Then I come in on, on day one, something [00:53:25] happens that makes me feel like independent. Yeah. Because, you [00:53:30] know, like something that’s in brand. You’ve got the thing, you’ve got Prem. Right. He’ll, he’ll, he’ll do like a, [00:53:35] he’ll bring a donkey to a, to a, to a trade show. Yeah. And that, you know, you’re gonna have to stop and look at that [00:53:40] donkey. But but then there is the other idea that in brand ideas. Something [00:53:45] that’s correct for the. And the lovely thing about it is right now you can build the brand.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly [00:53:50] as you wanted. Yeah, yeah.

Nasser Syed: No. Well that’s it. I think we’re really excited. It’s [00:53:55] really, um. We’re.

Payman Langroudi: So how far are we with it? Is it finished?

Nasser Syed: So, [00:54:00] um, we’re probably about two weeks away from the building work being finished. The website will be live [00:54:05] in probably within a month. Um, and then we’re just we’re going to do, [00:54:10] like an open, open event, um, where race is, is going [00:54:15] to sort of lead on that and, and really offer the mentoring side by side with that, because I think [00:54:20] that’s, that’s a really unique feature because, yeah, you can have other competitors that.

[ALL]: Can that’s a great. [00:54:25]

Nasser Syed: Thing. But you know yourself, you know, you you want sometimes you just want someone by the side [00:54:30] of you when you’re doing something complex and, and that security that you can have that within [00:54:35] the facility that we’re offering. You know, when, you know, I thought it was a brilliant [00:54:40] idea. I thought it was fantastic. It goes hand in hand with what we’re trying to breed, which is independence, freedom, [00:54:45] less stress and all this sort of stuff. And at the end of the day, the patient gets the best result [00:54:50] and that’s a win. It’s a win for win for everyone, and that’s always nice.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’d be really interesting, [00:54:55] like having a per year case treatment planning [00:55:00] fee, you know, like they do with Invisalign. Yeah these guys, that’s what they do. Yeah. [00:55:05] Other people send them their checks. Yeah. They send that what they would for £250. [00:55:10] Yeah. You should have that. You should have pros from Riaz.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:55:15] an ortho one, an implant one that you will do the treatment planning for an extra [00:55:20] £200 per case. It’s interesting.

Nasser Syed: The actual thing would be it’s going to we’re going [00:55:25] to automate it. And that’s what we were trying. What we were talking about is, is, um, they’ll be able [00:55:30] to, to have a one hour meeting with Reince before, before actually the mentoring session. [00:55:35] And, and they’ll need to submit some data. But then Riaz will sit down with them and go, here’s the pitfalls and the [00:55:40] stresses and the problems with what you’re trying to achieve. And that one hour might [00:55:45] be enough for that clinician to go right. That’s exactly what I needed. Now I can go and do it. Or they might [00:55:50] go, you know what? That was really good, actually. I want you by the side of me when I’m doing [00:55:55] this because I’m still not all there. And I go, great. And Riaz will offer [00:56:00] his services. So there’s going to be a mixture of a bit of online and a bit of, um, mentoring [00:56:05] that way and a bit of face to face whatever the clinician needs. Right? It’s what do they want? [00:56:10] What? And giving them the flexibility in that decision making.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing [00:56:15] man.

Nasser Syed: Oh thank you. Yeah it’s.

[ALL]: Been.

Payman Langroudi: I love how busy you are. And then you decide to do something. [00:56:20]

[ALL]: On top.

Payman Langroudi: Of that.

[ALL]: As well.

Nasser Syed: There’ll be another thing soon I think. Um I think.

Chez Bright: I’m [00:56:25] sure there will be.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Chez Bright: But I enjoy it. It’s really exciting, and I think [00:56:30] I like the element of doing. I’m always, like, doing something different. It’s never, [00:56:35] never the same. So. And I do enjoy it. So.

Payman Langroudi: No. And amazing to learn without. [00:56:40] Without the risk. Yeah, he’s taking it with every project. He’s taking a risk.

Chez Bright: I’m learning something.

Payman Langroudi: I’m [00:56:45] learning any.

Chez Bright: Risk at all? Yeah.

[ALL]: Yeah, yeah.

Nasser Syed: We [00:56:50] plan to sort of, um, work together until we both retire to a fair.

[ALL]: Um. [00:56:55] But. Yeah, but, um.

Nasser Syed: No, it’s good. And I say I can’t do it without [00:57:00] a team. If you don’t have the team supporting you, it’s only there’s limitations on [00:57:05] what you can do. So thankfully, you know, these guys are here supporting me and allows [00:57:10] me to be creative.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to the darker part of the pod. [00:57:15]

Nasser Syed: Okay?

Payman Langroudi: We like to talk about mistakes.

[ALL]: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Clinical errors.

[ALL]: Yeah. [00:57:20]

Payman Langroudi: You must have made a few.

Nasser Syed: Yeah, I think, uh, definitely.

[ALL]: What comes to mind? I [00:57:25] think one.

Nasser Syed: That comes to mind is very early on [00:57:30] in my career, uh, probably probably 2 to 3 years. You know, [00:57:35] you were in that position where you just want to make the patient happy. You just want to please the patient. You want to do exactly what [00:57:40] the patient wants. And the patient came in and had a postcranium with no endo. And [00:57:45] there was periapical pathology. Right.

[ALL]: Um.

Nasser Syed: You know, so some.

[ALL]: Old, old, good old.

Nasser Syed: Days. [00:57:50] Right? And she had some pain and symptoms and I thought, oh, well, I could take that post out [00:57:55] and I’ll redo it and I’ll put a new one in and. Yeah. Um, very quickly perforated [00:58:00] and, uh, all went horribly wrong. A bit hypochlorite went into the soft tissues. [00:58:05] Yeah. And then, um, she kindly went to go and see a solicitor afterwards, and and [00:58:10] that was that. So, uh, you know, and I think you then you very quickly start to learn and things like this [00:58:15] have to happen because you understand, actually, why did I do that? You have to [00:58:20] reflect on it and go, well, what made me do that? And where’s my limitations? Where’s my skill set? [00:58:25] Um, and so, yeah, I think, um, that was a very valuable lesson.

Payman Langroudi: So what are the answers? [00:58:30] What? Why did you do that? You were trying to keep the patient happy.

Nasser Syed: I just yeah, I think it was just to please, [00:58:35] um, I think my personality at that, my personality [00:58:40] was you. Look, you know, I can do any you know, you come out with cocky maybe a little bit after [00:58:45] dental school and you think, yeah, I can do these things.

Payman Langroudi: Also, we’re we’re in a yes business. Yeah, we’re we’re in a [00:58:50] service business.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: We’re saying yes is what you’re always trying to do. And [00:58:55] I think experience gets you to that point of when it’s like an alarm.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t [00:59:00] say yes to everything. Yeah, but what happened? So she sued you, and then she got paid out. [00:59:05]

Nasser Syed: She got paid out in indemnity.

Payman Langroudi: Was it quite quick or was it stressful?

[ALL]: Um. Stressful? [00:59:10] Yeah, it was my first one.

Nasser Syed: You know, I think that’s why.

[ALL]: And you were young.

Nasser Syed: That’s that’s why it’s sort of [00:59:15] probably stained into my brain. It was my first one. I went in with the best intentions, [00:59:20] you know? Um, and I felt, you know, hurt because of that. Um, [00:59:25] I think, um, and, you know, I understand things didn’t go well, and I understand [00:59:30] there was complications to that, um, and I yeah, I just I think that’s why [00:59:35] it it’s stuck into my head. But you know, you learn and I say I’m much more comfortable to say no. Now, [00:59:40] you know, if I see a patient and they want something and I don’t think it’s right, or I don’t think I [00:59:45] can do it or whatever it may be, I just go, no, you know, and I, you know, and [00:59:50] I try and get that across to my training, my associates, my, my FDA plus ones because they all come in [00:59:55] similar personality, you know, the, the sort of want to do lots [01:00:00] of everything. And they want to want to challenge themselves. And, and you say, look, you know, you [01:00:05] need to calm down a little bit. You know, you, you know, you’ve got to build up, you’ve got to I would [01:00:10] say lay your bricks. Right. You know, everyone wants to see this fancy wall where the wall is made up of individual [01:00:15] bricks, and you’ve got to lay one on top of each other to create the wall. So that’s going to take time. Um, [01:00:20] so don’t rush. Um, and, and they’ve got that relationship with me [01:00:25] where they’ll call me and go and say, I’ve got this case, what do you think? And I’ll give them my opinion. Um, and [01:00:30] so it hopefully deviates some of these problems That I experienced [01:00:35] early on my career.

Payman Langroudi: I think, you know, what you said about intent is is so huge. [01:00:40] Yeah, because I stopped practising 20, 12, 13 years ago. In [01:00:45] 2009, I got a complaint letter where [01:00:50] I was really trying to do my best, and this patient put something out. [01:00:55] He didn’t care or something. And I really took it personally. I’m talking [01:01:00] about it. 12. What was it? 14 years later I’m still talking about. It was a letter. [01:01:05] Yeah, but you know how they. The advice they give you is not to take [01:01:10] these things personally. Yeah, you have to take, you know, the error personally [01:01:15] so that you don’t make the error again. Yeah. And the error in that situation and in [01:01:20] my situation is a communication error. Yeah. I did not communicate that. My [01:01:25] intentions were brilliant. Yeah. I mean, of course some people the odd patient here and there [01:01:30] will even though they knew your intentions were brilliant, the lawyer will persuade them to write that they weren’t. Yeah, [01:01:35] but but what I’m saying is taking full sort of. What do you call it? The responsibility [01:01:40] for the error and knowing that the error wasn’t necessarily the perforation, [01:01:45] it could have been the communication. Yeah. You were a young dentist. And number two, the [01:01:50] other thing where you say no to a patient. And I always reflect on this [01:01:55] like some of the people I respect the most. And, you know, I deal with [01:02:00] like, I don’t know, commercial lawyer. Yeah. All the way to some expert [01:02:05] on, you know, German regulatory affairs or Indian are trying to [01:02:10] get toothpaste into India. A total nightmare. Yeah. Um, and some of the ones I respect the most [01:02:15] say, I don’t know all the time. All the time? Yeah. And [01:02:20] when you’re young, you feel like saying I don’t know is a weakness.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because. [01:02:25] Because you don’t know much. But some experts will say I don’t know. [01:02:30] And you think, well, well done. Thanks for saying that. Yeah. Not making it up, right.

[ALL]: No.

Nasser Syed: Well I, [01:02:35] I went to a course. It was a, it was a soft tissue implant course. [01:02:40] It was, uh, about connective tissue graft from the palate. And, um, there was a specialist [01:02:45] periodontist there. Um, and he, he was, um, he was telling us [01:02:50] about how he consults his patients, and he does a lot of, uh, gingival recession work [01:02:55] around teeth and, and, you know, a lot he gets a lot of referrals from, from [01:03:00] surrounding colleagues. And he just says to patients, you know, they go, will this work? [01:03:05] And he’s like, I don’t know. Um, I hope so. But, you know, no guarantees. [01:03:10] And and he says the patients just look at it in blank face like my, my, my dentist [01:03:15] has told me to come and see you because you I’ve been told that you’re the best and you’re going to correct my problem. [01:03:20] And now you’re going through all this, and now you’re saying you don’t know. And he’s like, no, but I don’t, you know. [01:03:25]

[ALL]: That’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Degree of confidence to.

[ALL]: Say, oh yeah, that’s the point.

Nasser Syed: And they don’t they still buy services. [01:03:30] I think sometimes when they actually look back at it, they they appreciate the honesty. [01:03:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Plus plus, you know, you’re having to go through consent processes all [01:03:40] the time right. What could go wrong. Yeah. You’d imagine if you start telling them all the [01:03:45] things that go wrong, you’ll put them off. Yeah. But actually that builds trust as well. This guy’s been around the [01:03:50] block. He knows what could go wrong here.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And again, another mistake of young dentists. [01:03:55] Um, other mistakes I’ve seen with young dentists, communication errors here where they, they almost [01:04:00] download everything in their head into the patient.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which just seems so, like, obvious [01:04:05] when you’re young. Yeah, but I’m going to just tell you everything I know. Yeah, but the patient doesn’t want everything. The [01:04:10] patient wants. Distilled version.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I find a lot of, you know, like this. You’ve [01:04:15] got this choice, and you’ve got that choice and you’ve got that choice. Yeah, I see that as a bit of a cop [01:04:20] out. Yeah. Like you’re the professional. Okay. You’ve got six choices. Yeah. Which is the one?

[ALL]: Yeah. [01:04:25]

Payman Langroudi: Which is the one? That’s the difference between a good lawyer and a great lawyer [01:04:30] is the one who’ll say, okay, there are these four choices. If it was me, I would do that.

[ALL]: Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. [01:04:35]

Payman Langroudi: But as a young dentist, you just think, oh, I’ll just get everything.

[ALL]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can do absolutely everything. [01:04:40]

Nasser Syed: But again and I get that, I get the young dentists are sitting with me through consultations [01:04:45] and I tell them, you know, I like how I converse. Actually, funnily enough, there was one [01:04:50] patient that I just finished restoring an implant yesterday, and [01:04:55] the two young associates said, can I be in with you while restoring the patient? And I said, yeah, [01:05:00] come in. And, um, restored the patient. Everything fine. And, um, I [01:05:05] said, so why do you think how did it go? And they just said they were surprised how relaxed [01:05:10] the conversation was between me and the patient, you know, and I said, yeah, but that’s [01:05:15] what the patients want. You know, they’re already a little bit anxious about coming to dentist and generally don’t [01:05:20] like being here. And you’ve got to calm that whole situation down. And in essence, [01:05:25] you become quite friendly. Um, Uh.

Payman Langroudi: And also that’s your default. [01:05:30] Like, you’ve got to not underestimate like some dentists when they become dentists. You’ve [01:05:35] been a nurse before with other dentists. Yeah. When did the dentist this sort [01:05:40] of high and mighty person. Yeah. And but some people, this disposition isn’t that. [01:05:45]

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I’m definitely from the patient perspective. They want to know you care before anything [01:05:50] else. Right.

Nasser Syed: Well that is I mean, even this the patient that I was talking about, you know, he [01:05:55] came to me and I placed implants on him before, and I said, look, I’m really quietening down now. I’m [01:06:00] not doing much surgery. You want to go and see my other guy? Uh, he’s, you know, he’s [01:06:05] really good. And the patient went, no, I want you to do it. But I said, look, really, [01:06:10] you know, I am really quietening down. I don’t really want to. And he goes, no, [01:06:15] you’re doing it. And I went, okay, fine.

[ALL]: And so I.

Nasser Syed: Begrudgingly [01:06:20] agreed to it and I finally just finished it off. Um, but yeah, you get you know, [01:06:25] I think that takes time and experience to develop that sort of communication [01:06:30] skills with your patients. But that’s what I’m trying. And still within the associates, [01:06:35] you need to be able to gain the patient’s confidence to the point that they they only just want you [01:06:40] and they’ll follow you because they do. Patients are quite loyal.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:06:45] are you really bad at? Maybe I should ask you.

[ALL]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What’s he really bad at?

Nasser Syed: That’s a good one. [01:06:50]

[ALL]: You can be honest.

Chez Bright: Don’t worry.

[ALL]: Go [01:06:55] for.

Chez Bright: It. Um. I don’t know, to [01:07:00] be honest, I don’t think there is anything that you’re bad at. I think.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [01:07:05] lots of things, I’m.

[ALL]: Sure. Yeah.

Chez Bright: I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:07:10] do you mean by that? You know.

[ALL]: Um.

Nasser Syed: I’m. [01:07:15] I’m probably a bit sort of jumpy, [01:07:20] so I jump around in different ways. Yeah. So sometimes [01:07:25] I just need to calm down a little bit. Um, um.

Chez Bright: I [01:07:30] think actually go on. Probably just having a bit of [01:07:35] a chill and a day off. A day off?

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Chez Bright: You can’t really, can you? That’s [01:07:40] probably one thing that you are bad. Actually.

Nasser Syed: I struggle with that. Yeah. Switching off even when [01:07:45] I’m abroad. Um, so I actually one of, one of my most favourite holidays [01:07:50] was I went to Thailand. Um, and the reason it was [01:07:55] really good, because by 10 p.m., you know, the kids are going off to bed and everyone’s [01:08:00] in chill mode, but it’s 2 p.m. in UK, so I can really get on top of [01:08:05] some work in the evening. Really check. Some emails are still open and I can [01:08:10] still check in and everyone. So how was work and everything? So I’ve done all the fun stuff [01:08:15] during the day and then I can still do some work in the evening. Yeah, I think I do.

Chez Bright: And then.

Nasser Syed: We’re just [01:08:20] catching.

Chez Bright: Up. When you’re on holiday now, just have a day off. Like, just chill out. [01:08:25] Just switch off, unwind, recharge and then come back with a fresh head. [01:08:30]

Nasser Syed: I always feel a little bit better when I come back. To be fair, but, um, but.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:08:35] know, the the Archimedes theory of fluid displacement. Eureka. That guy, [01:08:40] when he figured out how to figure out whether it’s a real gold crown or not. Yeah. You know, [01:08:45] so he was some scientist. The king said to him. I’ve got this crown. Is it [01:08:50] is it gold or isn’t it? Yeah. He wasn’t sure in the face. The [01:08:55] story goes, he was in the shower. He went to have a bath. His wife told him, stop working. [01:09:00] You need a bath. Okay. Yeah. His wife makes him a bath. He drops the the the [01:09:05] crown in the water, the displacement of the water. He figures out that, [01:09:10] um, you know, that you can tell that the density of the metal from [01:09:15] the amount of displacement. And then he runs in the streets naked, saying, Eureka, Eureka! [01:09:20] That’s where the eureka comes But the point of the story is the wife, the [01:09:25] wife saying, slow down and have a bath. Yeah. Yeah.

Nasser Syed: And sometimes when you’re [01:09:30] away, I get that, you know, you sort of out of the out of the mayhem and [01:09:35] sometimes you’re able to have these sort of eureka moments.

Payman Langroudi: And I’m not [01:09:40] very busy right now. Right now. Okay. As I was in the first ten years [01:09:45] of enlighten. Um, and I remember in the first ten years, I used to go [01:09:50] to my parents place in Spain, and the first two days I’d be walking around the pool with [01:09:55] my phone, you know, like, completely not. And then I’d notice by day 4 or 5, [01:10:00] I’m slowing down. By day 7 or 8, I’ve forgotten where the phone is. Yeah, it was back then. [01:10:05] You couldn’t. You couldn’t scroll, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, but sometimes [01:10:10] we’re not built for it either. Right. You know, some people want to keep going continuously. [01:10:15] Yeah, they’re good at that.

Nasser Syed: Yeah. No.

Payman Langroudi: Are you an early morning person [01:10:20] or late night person.

Nasser Syed: I’m definitely an early morning person. After sort of [01:10:25] ten half, ten, 11, I’m. If I’m working still, I [01:10:30] can see that, you know, things aren’t making sense anymore. My emails are just a gobbledegook. [01:10:35]

Payman Langroudi: So work every night?

Nasser Syed: Pretty much. Yeah, yeah. [01:10:40]

Payman Langroudi: So you come home from whatever you were doing?

Nasser Syed: Yeah, I spent a bit. I spent time with family.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:10:45] when you work again.

Nasser Syed: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Every night.

Nasser Syed: Yeah. Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. But [01:10:50] I’m not as bad as my brother, so my brother’s listening. He’s much worse than me. [01:10:55]

Payman Langroudi: Ask yourself, though, do you go to the gym and all that?

Nasser Syed: I do try, I do try. I should go a bit [01:11:00] more often, but I try and get sort of to 2 to 3 times a week. I do try.

Payman Langroudi: So there must be a [01:11:05] moment of me time. When is that? 5 a.m.. Well, what time [01:11:10] do you wake up?

Nasser Syed: Um, I’m usually up by by about 530. Yeah. Yeah, [01:11:15] five.

Payman Langroudi: Do you spend an hour by yourself doing nothing?

Nasser Syed: Um, What? I usually everyone’s [01:11:20] still asleep, so that’s why I really enjoy that time.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Wait, you don’t work at that point?

Nasser Syed: Well, I’m sort [01:11:25] of getting ready, but then I might just do a few bits and pieces. Yes, depending on what’s going on. [01:11:30] Uh, I think we’re just going to get busy and busy with some of these projects. So, um, but [01:11:35] yeah, I think, um, my mornings are it’s peaceful. It’s really peaceful. [01:11:40] Everyone’s still asleep. I can just.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of your me time. Right.

Nasser Syed: That is kind of my me time. Yeah. And then I try [01:11:45] and get to the gym when I can, and then that’s a bit of me time. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I’m amazed you thought you didn’t [01:11:50] need a PA and all that going on.

Nasser Syed: I didn’t, and you know what? I’ve [01:11:55] got a few friends who are, uh, growing practices now, and that’s [01:12:00] the exact same information I say to them who don’t have PA, I say, you must get a [01:12:05] pa, um, because you’ll notice how your life changes. Um, funnily enough, there’s there’s [01:12:10] a chap in in in Wales. He’s he owns a few dental practices and I met up with him [01:12:15] and I told him about my situation, how things have improved since I’ve got people around me. [01:12:20] He’s done exactly the same thing, and he’s hired. And he sends me messages saying, that was the best [01:12:25] advice you’ve ever given me, because you can’t do it on your own, and there’s only so much you can do, [01:12:30] and you need good people around you.

Payman Langroudi: Especially if you’re a dentist. If you’re a dentist, you’re most of your day is taken [01:12:35] up by patients. Yeah, yeah. Like it’s crazy that, you know, you’ve only got the lunchtime [01:12:40] and the whatever before patients and after patients to do something. Yeah. It’s [01:12:45] mad. Yeah, yeah. So if you want to do things you need help.

Nasser Syed: And that was the that [01:12:50] was the early stages where I owned a few practices and I was still doing a lot of clinical dentistry. So it was [01:12:55] I would sort of in between patients, go and answer some telephone calls and deal with some matters, and then [01:13:00] I’ll say lunchtime and then on the way home from work and so on and so forth. And it was [01:13:05] it was 2022. I thought, this isn’t working. Um, and you [01:13:10] have to make a decision.

Payman Langroudi: What’s been your lowest point?

Nasser Syed: In [01:13:15] dentistry or in just everything.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll have whatever you want to give me.

Nasser Syed: Um. [01:13:20]

Payman Langroudi: Well, let’s talk work first.

Nasser Syed: Um. Lowest point. Um, so [01:13:25] I attended for some oral surgery contracts. Um, and, [01:13:30] you know, I put a lot of work and effort into it and a lot of money into it, and, um, [01:13:35] and, um, and it wasn’t successful, [01:13:40] and it was just on a stupid error that that’s the bit that annoyed me the most. It was [01:13:45] a real stupid error. Um, and it was just the point. It, [01:13:50] you know, there was you could blame this person and that person and so on and so forth. But ultimately I [01:13:55] was responsible. Um, and so I had to take on the chin. Um, but [01:14:00] that that’s that has always hurt because, um, because I’m a oral surgeon. [01:14:05] Right. And to have an oral surgery contract just makes sense. Yeah. And I know I do a great job of [01:14:10] it. And I knew the patients would be treated fantastically. I knew all the people of the workforce would be great. And he [01:14:15] had it all in my mind. I had it all mapped out and then it was just a stupid error. [01:14:20] And, um, I didn’t win. Um, and I think that that that really [01:14:25] hurt.

Payman Langroudi: But okay, I understand the, the notion of it would have been good [01:14:30] and you’d put in some hours. Yeah. But did you have some sort of existential crisis saying like [01:14:35] that? That mistake was made because I’m a loser kind of, I, [01:14:40] I thought because because when I say low point, I was expecting a lower point [01:14:45] than that.

[ALL]: Okay. Yeah. No. Professionally that that was [01:14:50] quite low for me to me.

Payman Langroudi: Because with all the stuff that you’re doing, all those practices, all those associates, [01:14:55] all that implantology for that to be the low point, you.

[ALL]: Know, [01:15:00] it’s all been.

Nasser Syed: A blessing.

[ALL]: To be fair. [01:15:05] Um, I am very blessed. Um, but yeah.

Nasser Syed: That was that was that I took that. [01:15:10]

Payman Langroudi: I believe in God.

Nasser Syed: Yes, yes.

Payman Langroudi: When was it? It? When? At what point was your [01:15:15] faith most tested?

Nasser Syed: Um, [01:15:20] well, for me, um, my my mother passed away in 2022. [01:15:25] Um. Um, and that that that [01:15:30] was a massive test. Um, it’s still a test. It’s it’s [01:15:35] still painful every day. Um, you know, when you have your moment, um, the [01:15:40] person that you can’t do no wrong. Always there for you always got your [01:15:45] back. Never going to leave you, never gonna, um, do anything to harm you or [01:15:50] do anything wrong. You know, for you, you know, to lose that person [01:15:55] is. It rips. It rips a part of you [01:16:00] away. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Did you still have your dad or. No. At that point?

Nasser Syed: No. My dad had passed away before, [01:16:05] but, um, me and my mum was released. It was was. We were very close, you know, [01:16:10] every day from I would finish work, I would go and see my mom. Whoa. And [01:16:15] I’d go in, and it don’t matter how bad your day was, but as soon as you came in, it [01:16:20] just relieved. You’re stressed or relieved because your mum would just sit [01:16:25] you down and feed you, give you tea, give you biscuits and put the TV on. She’s not interested [01:16:30] in what what what you got? You know what you’re going to give her, what you’re going to do for or [01:16:35] what you’re going to. You know, she’s just there. She was just there to make things better. [01:16:40] Um, and, um, and then I it didn’t matter if I was there for 5 minutes [01:16:45] or 2 hours. It was enough of a refresh [01:16:50] for that. I could leave that, leave my mum at that point and go. Mm. I feel a bit better. Um, [01:16:55] and when you lose that part of your life, that’s, um. It’s. [01:17:00] Life’s never the same.

Payman Langroudi: No. And losing both parents, that moment of there [01:17:05] is no parent. Right.

Nasser Syed: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How does that feel?

Nasser Syed: It’s. [01:17:10] It’s difficult. [01:17:15] I mean, I’m sort of blessed with with with with my siblings, you know, I’ve [01:17:20] got my brother, um, I’ve got an older sister, two older sisters, um, and [01:17:25] my elder sister. We’re very close as well. So she gets my daily telephone calls, you know, [01:17:30] once or twice a day where, you know, we can talk about anything. Um, she’d [01:17:35] tell me about her day. I can tell, and that’s what I need. I, you know, it’s just an outlet where, [01:17:40] you know, it can be. We can be talking nonsense. It doesn’t even need to make sense. But [01:17:45] it just something where you can just outlet, where there’s no barrier, there’s no. I need to [01:17:50] think about what I say before I say it. And that constant thought [01:17:55] on your mind. And you just have a period of time where that doesn’t matter, you [01:18:00] know, it can decompress you. Um, and [01:18:05] so, yeah. So I’m quite blessed in that we all live quite close to each other. You [01:18:10] know, my eldest brother is ten minutes from my house. My other. My sister’s 15 minutes away, you [01:18:15] know. Um, so in that way, we’ve been very supportive of one another. And I think that’s [01:18:20] really helped. I think without that, things could have been very different.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:18:25] then when you say your faith was most tested at that moment, what do [01:18:30] you mean? Did you pray to God that your mum would make it and she didn’t, and that made you think [01:18:35] there is no God?

Nasser Syed: No, no, I don’t think I don’t think my faith was was ultimately tested. [01:18:40] It was a difficult part where we.

Payman Langroudi: Were you saying the opposite? Are you saying that’s when your [01:18:45] faith really helped you?

Nasser Syed: Yes, exactly. Yeah. I think, you know, that’s where my faith came into it. [01:18:50] Uh, in a sense that we we sort of believe we are going to be tested. Life isn’t [01:18:55] going to be easy. It’s all not all going to be roses. And, uh.

Payman Langroudi: And when [01:19:00] someone passes away. Right? I don’t believe in God. Right. So it’s very hard. Very [01:19:05] hard.

Nasser Syed: It’s very.

Payman Langroudi: Difficult. It’s very hard anyway. Yeah, but. But what I’m saying is, if you believe in God, [01:19:10] then you think, okay, they’re looking down on me. They’re with. They’re in a better place. They’re [01:19:15] with their own, uh, parents or whatever, you know, other people who’ve passed away. Yeah. All of [01:19:20] that stuff is kind of soothing a little bit. Of course it’s soothing, but, [01:19:25] you know, a little bit. Yeah. For me, I don’t believe in that. I don’t, I don’t, I really don’t I wish I did in [01:19:30] a way because I see it helps. Yeah. I believe when someone dies, they die. That’s gone. Yeah. [01:19:35] You’re left with almost nothing. Yeah. No one’s looking down. Yeah. They’re not in a better place. [01:19:40] None of that. Yeah, yeah, but I want to understand the other side of it. When was your faith most tested? When [01:19:45] did you think maybe there is no God? Like, what happened to you that made you.

Nasser Syed: I don’t think I’ve ever [01:19:50] been in that situation, if I’m being honest.

Payman Langroudi: A child getting run over two days old, don’t you think? [01:19:55] Where was God in that moment?

Nasser Syed: I don’t think I see it in that way. Um, I don’t, you [01:20:00] know, I don’t see that, um, that if something bad [01:20:05] happens, Then there is, you know, why did God do that? I don’t think, I don’t think. [01:20:10]

Payman Langroudi: I think.

Nasser Syed: Like I don’t question it.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Nasser Syed: No. I think my faith, um, says [01:20:15] what will be, will be. Uh, and really, our faith will get it. Get, [01:20:20] get you through this.

Payman Langroudi: In the end.

Nasser Syed: In the end, um, and in the end, we, you know, we ultimately, [01:20:25] as as humans don’t understand the whole, uh, logistics. [01:20:30]

Payman Langroudi: God moves in mysterious ways.

Nasser Syed: And all that sort sort of way. And who [01:20:35] are us to who are us to question it? Um, and so when we’re faced with these [01:20:40] calamities or difficulties, um, my, my faith is my [01:20:45] support. Uh, what will be will be.

Payman Langroudi: No. [01:20:50] Calm, calm. That’s more kismet, right? Yeah. Karma. Kind of. If I do, good, good will [01:20:55] come back. Yeah, if you believe in that.

Nasser Syed: I believe in doing good. Um, not [01:21:00] necessarily in getting something in return.

Payman Langroudi: But do you think it will? And by the [01:21:05] way, the opposite. Yeah, like of course, of course. Well, you’re good to me. I’ll be good. Back to you. Yeah, but I’m talking about sort of supernatural [01:21:10] karma.

Chez Bright: The energy that you put out into the universe. It comes back to you in the same [01:21:15] way that you put it out there.

Payman Langroudi: Someone drops something, you pick it up, and you don’t ask who, [01:21:20] who, whose £10 note is this? You go and buy something with that £10 and that thing fucks your life. [01:21:25] Yeah. Do you believe? I believe in that.

Nasser Syed: I believe in that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Nasser Syed: I do believe [01:21:30] in that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I think.

Nasser Syed: I think that we.

Payman Langroudi: You know.

Nasser Syed: Yeah. If you [01:21:35] do, if you, uh, and especially around money. Right. Because money is the root of all evil. [01:21:40] I really, truly believe that. I think money is evil. Um, if you if you if [01:21:45] your primary focus is just being rich and buying stuff.

Payman Langroudi: It tells you to.

Nasser Syed: Yeah, yeah. Because [01:21:50] then, you know, you you you’ll cheat someone to get some more money and so on and so forth, and [01:21:55] then. But that money will never be good for you. That money will never. That money will. [01:22:00]

Chez Bright: Wanted.

Nasser Syed: It’s tainted. Right? It will come. It will come out plus some, right? [01:22:05] In other ways. It will happen. And it’s [01:22:10] only when you truly reflect and go, why did that thing happen?

Chez Bright: It’s because of that. [01:22:15]

Payman Langroudi: It’s $10.

Nasser Syed: Yeah, and I lost. Yeah, whatever. And. [01:22:20] Yeah. But, um. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do what comes to mind if I say, what was the best lecture or lecturer [01:22:25] or course that you’ve been on?

Nasser Syed: Uh, lecturer I, I, I [01:22:30] was thinking about this, and I was, um, there was one lecture when I was again, a very [01:22:35] young, uh, dentist by a prof. Ibbotson.

Payman Langroudi: I remember him, yeah.

Nasser Syed: And [01:22:40] he’s just a charming.

Payman Langroudi: Charming.

Nasser Syed: And he was a fantastic speaker. You [01:22:45] know, he could really hold your attention. So it didn’t even matter what he [01:22:50] was talking about. I don’t think, you know, he just had that charisma. And, um. [01:22:55] And so he always comes back to mind. And when I try and lecture, I try and get a little percentage [01:23:00] of Yeah, why? He could. I can never achieve it. But he was. I [01:23:05] like to talk when I. When I do like I like to talk about stories. You know my experiences. [01:23:10] So yes, I’ve got 15 slides and I’ve got 20 pictures and yeah there’s [01:23:15] a, there’s, there’s, there’s a formality of what I’m going to teach you, but really I [01:23:20] want to tell you about my stories because you’re going to learn a little bit more and it’s real life and [01:23:25] you can relate to.

Payman Langroudi: It programmed to, to learn through stories.

Nasser Syed: And so I tend to just [01:23:30] tell experiences. Um, um, and so we can spend a whole two hour lecture [01:23:35] on and I could cover a few stories and, and, and then things then work off that, you [01:23:40] know, they’ll ask questions and so on and so forth. And I really enjoyed that part of lecturing rather than slide [01:23:45] one to slide 20. And I always say at the start of lecture, one lecture in particular [01:23:50] I’ve got about, you know, 120 slides, I said, if I get anywhere [01:23:55] close to halfway, something’s not going right because you’ve not [01:24:00] engaged, right? Um, and so the best time is I get to [01:24:05] lecture, I get to slide 2530, and it’s the end of time. I think that’s that’s really useful [01:24:10] because now it’s interesting. I’ve now answered your questions. Not what I think [01:24:15] you should know. Yes, I’ve got that there. And you can always come back to me anyway about it. But you’ve [01:24:20] had questions and I’ve answered those and that’s valuable.

Payman Langroudi: Have you got a favourite book Dental book [01:24:25] or resource?

Nasser Syed: Um, I do like a Dental update. Uh, yeah, I [01:24:30] do like a Dental update from time to time. Bit of a coffee and some tea and some Dental [01:24:35] update is is quite good. Uh, I should plug my book. Actually, to be fair, [01:24:40] he’s got he’s got he’s got a book that. [01:24:45]

Payman Langroudi: You haven’t read yet.

Nasser Syed: Yeah, it’s very big, but, [01:24:50] um. Yeah. So, um. Yeah. Dental updates. Quite fun.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent. I’ve really enjoyed [01:24:55] that. I’m going to end with the same question as you always end on. A fantasy [01:25:00] dinner party. Three guests, dead or alive. And you’re going to share them, right? Yeah, [01:25:05] you’re going to have two and you’re going to have one. Is that right?

Nasser Syed: Let’s do that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well, [01:25:10] you want to go the other way round. Do you want to have two or you can have three. You can have three.

Chez Bright: No, no.

Payman Langroudi: What are yours. [01:25:15]

Nasser Syed: My, my my two. So I’ll leave one for. For shares. Um, I think what [01:25:20] I grew up around Fresh Prince of Bel-Air. So Will Smith. Will Smith would be a cool [01:25:25] dinner. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And even after he punched that guy. Yeah.

Nasser Syed: Will [01:25:30] Smith during Fresh Prince of Bel-Air time.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. That was. Yeah, he was cool. He was. [01:25:35]

Nasser Syed: Will Smith.

Payman Langroudi: He was funny.

Nasser Syed: That would be really good. And the second one. Don’t judge me. Would be, uh, Pablo [01:25:40] Escobar.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Nasser Syed: I think that would.

Payman Langroudi: Be an interesting.

Nasser Syed: That would be really, [01:25:45] really interesting. Just his life. And put the drugs to one side. But, [01:25:50] um.

Payman Langroudi: Did you watch the serial? Um. Narcos.

Nasser Syed: Narcos? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The actor was brilliant. The [01:25:55] one. The one who played Escobar.

Nasser Syed: Brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: Fantastic Argentinian guy. He was brilliant. Yeah.

Nasser Syed: And [01:26:00] elements of that was based on on on his life, you know, willing to pay off the national [01:26:05] debts.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, he was interesting guy.

Nasser Syed: That is.

Payman Langroudi: Just.

Nasser Syed: Insanity. Right. But [01:26:10] the balls. Right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Nasser Syed: The courage and and so I think that would be quite fun.

Payman Langroudi: Good accommodation. [01:26:15] Yeah. Accommodation.

Chez Bright: And you see, I was going to say Channing Tatum. [01:26:20] But now I’m thinking I want to say Chris Rock because he said Will Smith to see if they kind of squash [01:26:25] this beef with Jada Pinkett thing.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting.

Nasser Syed: That would be good [01:26:30] actually. Yeah.

Chez Bright: So yeah, I’m gonna say Chris Rock now.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent.

Nasser Syed: Might end up being a [01:26:35] referee during that one. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Really enjoyed that man. Really enjoyed that. I think what [01:26:40] I’ve learned the most from you is, uh, to work a bit harder. No, [01:26:45] but but but you do it with a brilliant smile on your face. And when I came [01:26:50] to your practice, everyone seemed so happy. And for me, that’s. It’s difficult [01:26:55] to pull that off, man, when you have the number of people that you’ve got to deal with, and everyone in [01:27:00] that room was so happy. Well done.

Nasser Syed: Thank you so much.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not easy to pull that off.

Nasser Syed: And thank you [01:27:05] for coming to lecturing actually. They really, really enjoyed it. So thank you.

Payman Langroudi: Good to good to have both [01:27:10] of you.

Nasser Syed: Yeah. Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, [01:27:15] the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [01:27:20] in dentistry. Your hosts [01:27:25] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. [01:27:30] If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both [01:27:35] from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest [01:27:40] has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, [01:27:45] think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you [01:27:50] think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our [01:27:55] six star rating.

[INTRO]: I’m Ralph. I’m Bhavin Patel, and welcome to the podcast. [00:00:05] This is your place to lead. Better live fully and laugh more. It’s your blueprint [00:00:10] to optimal performance.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Hello, [00:00:15] hello, hello, and welcome to another [00:00:20] episode of the Nail It podcast. Your place to.

Dr Bav : Live. Fully lead [00:00:25] better, laugh more.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : You’ve got it in the wrong order. But I forgive [00:00:30] you. I’ll forgive you.

Dr Bav : I said I was going to get a tattoo, don’t I?

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : It’s not as if we don’t [00:00:35] record this practically every week. I mean, seriously, it should be your tattoo. Actually, yes. [00:00:40]

Dr Bav : It’s my mantra.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Yeah, yeah. Yeah. [00:00:45] That’s what they’re going to put on your gravestone, isn’t it?

Dr Bav : That’s it. Yeah.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Yeah. Always, always remember you and [00:00:50] we have an amazing guest, Bev.

Dr Bav : We do, we do. You know, I’ve been looking forward to speaking to [00:00:55] Payman. Uh, he’s a busy man. Um, we managed to nail him down and Came [00:01:00] on to the podcast. Um.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : So to introduce you to Payman [00:01:05] Langroudi, some of you may already know because you’ve heard him be this incredible host to [00:01:10] the Dental Leaders podcast. And of course, he is the Clinical Director at enlighten as [00:01:15] well. So we are truly honoured. And he’s a little bit nervous to actually be on the receiving [00:01:20] end of a podcast.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah it’s true. It’s much harder on [00:01:25] this end. Hi, how are you? Thanks for having me.

Dr Bav : Hey, Payman. Hey, Payman. You know, I’ve heard your voice and heard you [00:01:30] talking to people, asking them the questions. And we’re honoured to have the opportunity to [00:01:35] now put you on the other side and ask you the questions.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks for having me, guys.

Dr Bav : No worries. [00:01:40]

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Brilliant. So I’m really curious because I’ve had a lot of colleagues and friends who have who have been [00:01:45] on your podcast, and I’ve always been, you know, I’m always curious about when people [00:01:50] start a podcast and then particularly when it’s about Dental Leaders. And I think really you were [00:01:55] quite innovative in this before, because it’s only in more recent years. We’re really starting to hear about [00:02:00] the need for leadership in dentistry. So I’m curious, what prompted you to start [00:02:05] that podcast in the first place?

Payman Langroudi: Um, listen, I’d be lying if [00:02:10] I said that it wasn’t a marketing thing to start with. And we decided [00:02:15] to go down a content based approach to marketing when [00:02:20] social really exploded. Um, really based on the fact that I felt [00:02:25] like we didn’t pay attention to the, you know, Google AdWords and all [00:02:30] of that when that came along, we didn’t go all in on it. Um, so when social came along, we [00:02:35] said, we’re going to go all in on it. And the idea with it was to have a content approach and [00:02:40] not only talk about teeth whitening, not only talk about teeth, talk about people [00:02:45] stuck to the teeth. And, you know, it’s difficult as well because, you know, the team wants to sell a product, [00:02:50] right? So I often get the question, where’s the ROI on this podcast? Right. Um, [00:02:55] and, you know, it started out like that with my good friend Prav Solanki. Um, [00:03:00] then after a while, it today it feels more [00:03:05] like a hobby than anything else. I mean, of course there are benefits to having [00:03:10] a podcast with loads of dentists. Listen to um, from the business perspective, but I don’t look [00:03:15] at it from the business perspective anymore. I look at it as important conversations and [00:03:20] and, you know, we’ve done 320 episodes or something. And, you know, [00:03:25] three of our guests are now passed away. And, you know, to have those conversations on record [00:03:30] for their families. And, you know, we’re all going to pass away one day. Um, [00:03:35] and, you know, I find even though it’s probably the thing that brings back [00:03:40] the least for me in terms of ROI, um, it’s it’s [00:03:45] the thing that I’m most proud of that I do because, you know, it’s real stories. It’s not boxes [00:03:50] of, um, toothpaste or whatever.

Dr Bav : It is awesome. I mean, it’s probably [00:03:55] the biggest podcast in UK dentistry, I’d say.

Payman Langroudi: I’d say. I’d say jazz. Jazz. [00:04:00]

Dr Bav : Uh, you know, I’ve not insisted that the protrusive one, right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Dr Bav : I’ve heard [00:04:05] of that. I’ve heard of that. I’ve never listened to it, but, um. So how how many years have you been doing it? [00:04:10]

Payman Langroudi: Since before Covid. So maybe six years. Something like that. Yeah. [00:04:15]

Dr Bav : Nice. Um, do you know what we forgot? We didn’t ask him the first [00:04:20] question we’re supposed to ask him. Hmm.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : You see, you threw me off track words, [00:04:25] and then we just went everywhere. Oh, but wait, wait, can we come back to it? Because I was like, I was about [00:04:30] to ask you a question because I don’t want you to lose your flow. Payman. And it’s like when you talk about how [00:04:35] this it doesn’t really necessarily get ROI, and yet it is something that for you, you’re [00:04:40] the most proud of what comes to mind. I mean, of course, it’s the Dental Leaders podcast, right? And [00:04:45] of course you’re on the podcast, which is leadership. And for me, that’s the [00:04:50] pinnacle of leadership that that that peak of the triangle, which is true transcendence. [00:04:55] And when everything goes beyond yourself, you’re not just doing it for yourself [00:05:00] and you’re doing it for others, and you’re doing it for other people to grow as well and bring others [00:05:05] with you. Lift other people up with you. Which for me, I truly see that as when [00:05:10] you’ve really made it as a leader, you know that’s what you’re ultimately aiming for. And [00:05:15] and to me, from what you said, that’s what it sounds like.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, [00:05:20] I don’t know. I don’t know that, you know, we’re having a conversation, right? When you have a conversation, you have to sort of put [00:05:25] into words what’s going through your head, but what’s going through your head often are feelings. [00:05:30] And for me, I’ve got maybe a bit of, I don’t know, ADHD, whatever you want [00:05:35] to call it, I don’t know. These days everyone’s got something right, but if it’s [00:05:40] something I really like, I’ll stay up all night on it. Um, but if it’s something I don’t really [00:05:45] like, I will procrastinate like hell and be the laziest person in the world [00:05:50] on it. And so, you know, it’s lucky that, you know, when [00:05:55] you own a company, you can you can call the shots, right? You can say, [00:06:00] I want my first meeting is at 10:00 because I don’t like 9:00 or 8:00 [00:06:05] meetings. Um, I’ll have meetings like now at eight at night. No problem. [00:06:10] But eight in the morning, I don’t just as one example. Um, and so I’ve [00:06:15] got an excellent set of partners who understand me. And let me, [00:06:20] let me just do the things that I’m really good at and the things I really like doing [00:06:25] because, you know, that’s I’m that kind of cat. Anyway, I end up, you know, [00:06:30] I’m a bit disorganised. You can buy me a hundred diaries. I still be disorganised, you know, [00:06:35] and leaning into your strengths rather than your weaknesses. For me, it’s been a [00:06:40] massive revelation because there’s loads I’m really bad at.

Dr Bav : But [00:06:45] there’s obviously things you’re really good at. Um, I mean, obviously we can come on to enlighten as well. [00:06:50] But again, I wasn’t going to say this now, but, um, you when you first start [00:06:55] enlighten. You did that I’m guessing. Was that in your 20s?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. 28.

Dr Bav : 28, [00:07:00] 28 years ago.

Payman Langroudi: So 20, 28 years old, about 25 years ago. [00:07:05]

Dr Bav : You probably don’t remember this, but you apparently turned up at my father in law’s dental practice, and he [00:07:10] still remembers you to this day. So apparently you cold called in Nottingham when you were first [00:07:15] launching, uh, enlighten. And he fondly remembers you. And he he [00:07:20] he actually still says, um, you know, he he came to my practice and, you know, he you [00:07:25] stuck in his mind. So you left a really good example of my father.

Payman Langroudi: What’s his name? What’s his name? [00:07:30]

Dr Bav : His name was Dhiru.

Payman Langroudi: Patel Ventosa.

Dr Bav : In [00:07:35] Nottingham city centre. But.

Payman Langroudi: Um, one of one of our earliest users.

Dr Bav : It just goes to show [00:07:40] that, you know, you you obviously there was something that you wanted to get out there and you [00:07:45] put in the work that 28 years ago, and at that time, you know, cosmetic dentistry was sort of taking [00:07:50] off in the UK, I guess. But what made you start that? Why why did you want to leave dentistry and [00:07:55] start a company?

Payman Langroudi: Um, you know how these things work out. Yeah. [00:08:00] It wasn’t a decision to leave dentistry. That wasn’t what I wanted to do. Um, [00:08:05] we started out. We were 28 years old. Uh, we were, we were. I started the [00:08:10] company with the guys I used to live with in university, and, uh, my wife, my now [00:08:15] wife, you know, my then girlfriend. So the four of us, the two guys I lived with and [00:08:20] my and my wife and, um, we just wanted to do something a [00:08:25] bit different. And, you know, when you get to that point of you’re going to start a practice, and we [00:08:30] were going to start practices, we’re going to we’re going to do four practices because there’s four of us and [00:08:35] we’re going to be teeth whitening centres that they basically the idea was, you [00:08:40] know, these city boys would come in and have their teeth whitened, have a clean, have their [00:08:45] teeth flossed, and that’s all we do. We don’t do anything else. Um, you know, like super [00:08:50] specialist, I don’t know. Do you know the place? The steak place. There’s [00:08:55] only one thing on the menu. Right. Steak. Right. And the only choice you’ve got is, [00:09:00] you know, medium or rare or. Well done. You can’t even say medium rare. And that’s [00:09:05] that’s the that’s the only choice you’ve got. They do it very well. They’ve got their special sauce. Whatever. And [00:09:10] that was that idea of do one thing very well.

Payman Langroudi: Right. And you [00:09:15] know, you go around so many places and so much stuff is rubbish. You know, it needs [00:09:20] to be improved. And you think, you know, people if they focussed in on just the one [00:09:25] thing, if you if you made, if you had the best pizza in Norwich. Yeah. The best, the best [00:09:30] cheese and tomato pizza in Norwich, you’d have a great business. Yeah. Yeah. [00:09:35] Um, or then. Then you spread it out. You know, you say I want to be the best dentist [00:09:40] in this practice. I want to be the best dentist in this town. The best dentist [00:09:45] in the country. And then, you know, I’ve got Depeche Palmer, who I work with on the, um, composite [00:09:50] course once in a generation talent. I mean, I do come across [00:09:55] them, but once in a generation, literally like that. And sometimes the guy gets depressed [00:10:00] when some kid in Brazil does something better than him, um, because he [00:10:05] wants to be the best in the world. Right? And each of these comes with sacrifice, right? [00:10:10] It all sounds great, but it comes with massive [00:10:15] sacrifice. And, you know, now with enlightened, we’re saying we want to be the best teeth whitening system in the world. [00:10:20] Yeah. And it comes with massive sacrifice. All sorts of sacrifices that you have to [00:10:25] make to do that. Um.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : What sacrifices? Because again, this is another leadership issue, as we [00:10:30] always say. You know, ultimately there are sacrifices so that you can pursue something else. So what [00:10:35] sacrifices?

Payman Langroudi: Well, from the enlightened perspective, like, you know, there’s just product market [00:10:40] fit kind of sacrifices, right? You want to be the best in the world. You can’t be the cheapest in the world, [00:10:45] you know. So so then, you know, you can’t be both of those things. And then you get people [00:10:50] who worry about, you know, price, for instance, just just as a basic example. [00:10:55] But, you know, you have to you have to obsess over details to make things correct. [00:11:00] And you know that that takes extra people and it costs more. And, [00:11:05] you know, we take we take the gel from the factory all the way to the patient in [00:11:10] a maximum of six weeks, a maximum. So, you know, it’s all flown [00:11:15] over in refrigerated planes, refrigerated trucks. It only sits in the patient dentist [00:11:20] practice for one night. Um, because we know the date, you know, we’re going to give the dentist the date that it’s [00:11:25] going to arrive at their practice, and they book the patient in after that. So it hasn’t broken down. It hasn’t [00:11:30] become acidic. All of that takes a lot of work and a lot of hassle, a lot of sacrifice. [00:11:35] We throw away loads of gel because it gets past the. We’ve decided not to keep [00:11:40] it more than one month of absolute maximum.

Payman Langroudi: Um, you know the alternative, the alternative [00:11:45] is that we get results that aren’t as good, you know, [00:11:50] and then sometimes these goals tend to over, you know, go over each other. So we said, oh [00:11:55] we want to be more green. So we reduce the plastic in the kit by [00:12:00] 80%. Um, but then that increased our carbon [00:12:05] footprint, doubled our carbon footprint just by doing that. Um, you know, [00:12:10] you’re in a throw away gel. That’s not very green thing to do. So, so, you know, [00:12:15] these these goals, different goals that you have get in each other’s way. Um, [00:12:20] but at the end of the day, I think supply, the supply business [00:12:25] is difficult. It’s not easy at all. Um, much harder than being a dentist. [00:12:30] Much harder. Um, your patients trust you intrinsically. [00:12:35] Um, you know, by just by sitting in your chair, they trust you. Whereas [00:12:40] us as dentists, we’ve been trained not to trust, you know, that’s that’s that’s our [00:12:45] whole training is. Where’s the evidence? And it’s quite right, isn’t it? You’re not going to believe everything you’re in. [00:12:50] You know, the number of things you’ve seen come and go that promised, you know, the earth. [00:12:55] And in the end, there seems to be about the same thing. It was 25 years ago when I qualified. [00:13:00]

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Well, you know, I pushed the boundaries, right? I was that person who wanted [00:13:05] to be the best. And I became that and became the global pioneer for the use of [00:13:10] of lasers in.

Payman Langroudi: And did you.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : And I had to I had to stand [00:13:15] in front of British society of Perrier. American academy of. European federation of Perrier [00:13:20] talking about lasers when everybody’s sitting there saying, oh, there’s no evidence, there’s no evidence, there’s no evidence. And [00:13:25] there I am doing research and publishing papers and showing, but I’m showing you bone regeneration. [00:13:30] I’m showing you better patient centred outcomes. I’m showing you flapless surgery. So [00:13:35] sometimes it comes from needing to push the boundaries and truly [00:13:40] have a deep, deep belief in what it is you want, what it is you stand for, [00:13:45] and what it is you can care you can provide. Which by the sounds of it was an underlying is [00:13:50] definitely an underlying aspect with enlighten as well, because you have to you have to have [00:13:55] that deeper purpose to keep going, to keep going in your profession. I’m going for nearly 30 years, [00:14:00] and yet I still love doing what I do. And so there is a reason for that. And [00:14:05] it is because I get to be the best I can possibly be.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the other thing [00:14:10] is, you know, it’s a decision that you make. And we were number two in [00:14:15] terms of product for the first five, six years. And it was terrible. [00:14:20] It was horrible being number two, you know, the other the competitor had a better product, better looking [00:14:25] product, more expensive product. Everything about it was better. I don’t know if you remember there was a product. We started [00:14:30] out with light activated whitening. There was a product called Bright Smile. Um, [00:14:35] and this was all sort of 4 or 5 years before the zoom light came along [00:14:40] and Bright Smile was, you know, it was properly funded. They’d raised like $100 million. [00:14:45] They’d gone and got had one of these like, design firms make a beautiful robotic [00:14:50] thing. And at the time we had this sort of vacuum cleaner looking thing, you know, like [00:14:55] a cheap copy. Um, and then when it turned out that we [00:15:00] found out lights do nothing at the time, we thought they did. His bright smile had publications [00:15:05] and 30 publications on why the light was okay. Um, then when we came to switch [00:15:10] and we had to switch, zoom had come along by that time and we decided to go into tray whitening. [00:15:15] And I sat down with my partner, Sanj, who’s one of these guys. He’s just like, he, [00:15:20] he, he’s a perfectionist. Like he doesn’t mind if something goes wrong, but he never [00:15:25] wants it to happen again. And he’ll literally change everything based on one incident. Um, [00:15:30] and he said, look, I don’t care how much it costs. I don’t care what it takes. We have to have the [00:15:35] best tray system. So we worked on that for about two years and, [00:15:40] you know, broke it down into, you know what? What is it? What is trade whitening? At the end of the day, it’s [00:15:45] the gel on the tray. The impression desensitises those four things and incrementally improving [00:15:50] each of those parts. Um, and, you know, those, those incremental [00:15:55] improvements in, in the end, get you better results.

Dr Bav : Again, a real insight [00:16:00] into your personality and, uh.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Ah.

Dr Bav : How you obsess over these things. And it’s [00:16:05] amazing. You got that’s that’s what drives you. Um, well, why don’t we go back to your favourite quote then [00:16:10] maybe that gives a little bit more insight into what you’re about.

Payman Langroudi: Payman I [00:16:15] really like the Oscar Wilde quote, and, you know, I brought them up and it’s [00:16:20] amazing the number of them that are actually in the vernacular now, just like part of the language. And, [00:16:25] you know, I was looking through quotes and the Oscar Wilde ones, almost the whole page [00:16:30] was delicious. Um, but out of the ones, I’ve.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Gotta [00:16:35] narrow it down to the best one. Payman.

Payman Langroudi: Hey, I think that, you know, [00:16:40] for my child to be yourself, everyone else is already taken. Yeah, yeah, because you do [00:16:45] spend a lot of your early years trying to emulate other people until you find [00:16:50] yourself. I guess some people find themselves quite early. Um, but when you realise [00:16:55] that, you know, being yourself is the key. Yeah, it really does. [00:17:00] It’s really empowering. Um, but, you know, knows [00:17:05] the price of everything. The value of nothing. That’s one of his. But we’re all in the gutter. [00:17:10] Some of us are looking at the stars. Yeah. So many beautiful things. Yeah. Man [00:17:15] wants to be the woman’s first love. The woman likes to be the man’s last romance. It’s actually part of [00:17:20] the part of the vernacular. Now.

Dr Bav : The first one you said was. Be yourself. Everyone else is [00:17:25] taken, right? Yeah, yeah. But as you quite rightly say, it takes quite a few number of years. You know, it’s one [00:17:30] of those things that’s in your teens. You want to fit in. You want to be like everybody else in your 20s. You want to [00:17:35] impress everyone else and be, you know, be the person that everyone looks to. It takes usually [00:17:40] most people don’t do that until quite late on. Um, and then it’s like, you know, as you get [00:17:45] older, you realise actually, you know, you don’t. Nothing really matters as [00:17:50] much as you think it does. You go round and round in your head. Um, and there was a saying, um, [00:17:55] I think Sal Bloom’s, uh, book about, um, you are not as important as [00:18:00] you think you are to other people. You know, people don’t think about you as much as you think about yourself. And [00:18:05] until you realise that it takes a lot, it takes, you know, it takes you to get quite old to [00:18:10] actually understand that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s really empowering too, isn’t it? You [00:18:15] don’t have to try. And at the same time I do. I still think you’re always trying [00:18:20] to be someone else, isn’t it? Because, I don’t know, one might get completely drunk or something [00:18:25] and another person comes out? Yeah, yeah. You know, there are inhibitory [00:18:30] mechanisms at play the whole time. Right. I remember.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Going to take him out [00:18:35] for a drink and.

Dr Bav : Always up for that Payman always.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know, [00:18:40] I don’t know about you guys, I bet. Yeah, but I wasn’t right at dental [00:18:45] school.

Dr Bav : Can you not tell with all the books? Look at all our books.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, no, I can tell.

Dr Bav : Look at our backgrounds. [00:18:50]

Payman Langroudi: Look girly, girly, swot. But in dental school, I was the crammer [00:18:55] guy. Yeah. And and, um, we found this stuff that was for, you know, bodybuilders. [00:19:00] It was like some sort of protein powder, but it had something in it that kept you awake all night. So we [00:19:05] stayed awake for 48 hours, went through two exams, and then I wrote, I was on this [00:19:10] oral surgery exam, and it was like something like, what’s the differential diagnosis [00:19:15] of a swelling on the palate or something? And, um, I was writing garbage. [00:19:20] Actual garbage. But I couldn’t stop myself. Yeah. And I really [00:19:25] realised that inhibitory mechanism thing that, you know, there’s all sorts of thoughts. Sometimes you’re driving [00:19:30] your car, you think I’ll just drive over the cliff, but then something stops you. Something stops you from doing [00:19:35] that. You know, there’s inhibitory mechanisms kick in. Um, and, you know, on our podcast, [00:19:40] I did one with Rona on mental health and we asked this question of, you know, why is it [00:19:45] that dentists take their own lives? And in that moment, you know, something [00:19:50] inhibitory doesn’t kick in, I guess. And we’ll talk about why [00:19:55] later. But in the moment of doing it, something doesn’t kick in. [00:20:00] And, you know, a lot of people who are depressed or whatever haven’t had any sleep. And having had no sleep [00:20:05] for 48 hours those two days, I realised I was writing like actual crap. I was saying. Yeah, you [00:20:10] could bite into a pizza and it could burn your, you know, like not even using medical terms. [00:20:15] I knew it was incorrect, but I just couldn’t stop. Well, you know who is the real you? [00:20:20] Who knows?

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : So some of this goes into kind of self-destruction. I mean, you bavin. [00:20:25] Bavin came back and said, actually, it takes quite a long time and you seem to think it didn’t, but it does. It [00:20:30] takes a lot of maturity and a lot of growth and a lot of self-awareness to [00:20:35] really. Not just believe, but resonate [00:20:40] with that. Be yourself. Because everybody else is taken. There’s a big thing. And, you know, when I [00:20:45] do a lot of work with people in their 40s and their 50s, we realise that so much of it is actually [00:20:50] about identity because you’ve spent so long with a label the label of a [00:20:55] dentist, a business owner, a mother, a father, a parent, uh, [00:21:00] a daughter, a son, a niece, a nephew. And actually, who are you really [00:21:05] at your core? I mean, for me, that’s that’s what it encompasses. Because you have to go back to being [00:21:10] your true self. You have to be prepared to shed all of the layers of everything that you’ve accumulated. [00:21:15] And that’s the only way you actually set yourself free. So it’s not. And we do [00:21:20] see, like when some people get a lot older, right? They don’t tend to care what other people think. And and they [00:21:25] they voice things a little bit more. But I think particularly in a profession and in dentistry and this idea [00:21:30] of needing to behave a certain way, it really does create incredible limits. [00:21:35] It creates anxiety, it creates depression, it removes [00:21:40] you from being truly authentic and and [00:21:45] from actually it puts a cap on your success however you want to define success.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:21:50] Although on the other hand, dentistry does sort of lend itself to sort of being the king [00:21:55] of your own kingdom as well. You know that a dental practice is [00:22:00] it’s it’s I would define it as a very large, small business. You know, it’s [00:22:05] a small business. Um, and you can totally call the shots in [00:22:10] that small business. And in a way, it can be an expression of yourself. [00:22:15] And I do see it. I go to thousands of practice. I must have been to thousands of practices. And, [00:22:20] um, sometimes you’re in some little town and you’ve got this super happy [00:22:25] guy who loves coming to work, loves his team, loves his patients, [00:22:30] and it’s basically finding it, you know, at the end of the day, you know, keep your patients [00:22:35] happy, keep your staff happy. It’s basically all of dentistry, right? [00:22:40] You Do the teeth. Do the teeth. Well. But but keep [00:22:45] those two constituents happy. And you see people pulling it off and being the kings [00:22:50] of their little kingdom and actually being themselves. And it’s so interesting, [00:22:55] you know, from the outside, you might imagine dentists and dental practices are all the same, [00:23:00] but boy, are they not. I mean, totally different, totally different things [00:23:05] I see in practices.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : And yet we have massive burnout rates. We [00:23:10] have a huge, huge rates of burnout, depression, suicide. You [00:23:15] touched on mental health issues. So there are a lot of people out there who are.

Payman Langroudi: Really [00:23:20] thought, have you thought about this? I’ve looked into it about why dentists take their own lives, [00:23:25] because, you know, me and Rona interviewed loads of people, read a load of stuff, [00:23:30] and turns out dentists have been taking their own lives for 100 years. It’s not the [00:23:35] GDC, you know, it’s, um. One thing I thought [00:23:40] about is I’ve got a cousin, he’s a eye surgeon, and he was telling [00:23:45] me he has a day of operations LA or a day of GA. The [00:23:50] LA days are twice as stressful because you’ve got a patient there, right? Sticking [00:23:55] an injection in his eye. Now similar to our situation. Nervous live patient [00:24:00] all day, every day is a, you know, a level of stress or an amount [00:24:05] your bucket is going to get filled and then layer on that. Um, [00:24:10] let’s say your relationship with your nurse isn’t as it as good as it could [00:24:15] be. Now you’ve got someone in the room with you all day, and now that’s extra [00:24:20] stress in the bucket layer on that. Much of our work fails. [00:24:25] You know, people come back with, you know, so your self-worth goes [00:24:30] down a little bit. Um, but, you know, we don’t have the answer. We don’t have [00:24:35] the actual answer. We didn’t have it. Did you guys have a look at that or think about that.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Well, [00:24:40] I know like my own experience of of contemplating it but [00:24:45] the but the inhibitory bit definitely in but there have there have been moments because it’s almost [00:24:50] just.

Payman Langroudi: Like a dark days.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Dark days. There are days when I feel like I don’t even want [00:24:55] to be on this earth. It feels too painful. And there have been times of, you know, complete [00:25:00] decision fatigue where you just shut down. And you’re right. It’s not just the GDC, [00:25:05] but it’s just it’s suddenly an inability to just cope. And these thoughts [00:25:10] that it would, wouldn’t it just be easier to just not be here? The [00:25:15] inhibition for me was like, yeah, okay, hang on, you’ve got kids. Don’t be so stupid. And then [00:25:20] and then you kick, you kick back in again. And there has to be a way. But there are some people who [00:25:25] don’t have that level of resilience, and usually they do. For the first thing they [00:25:30] do is once they make a plan, you usually see they are much calmer and you’ve got [00:25:35] to watch out for your friends if they’ve been really depressed because the minute they seem to perk up, that’s actually [00:25:40] the danger point, because usually at that point they’ve made a plan, and once they’ve made a plan, they feel [00:25:45] better and then they execute the plan.

Dr Bav : Wow. [00:25:50] We’ve gone down a path.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Yeah, it’s and it’s tough. You know, I’m sure [00:25:55] we’ve all lost people, um, through, you know, in the profession. And it’s very it’s [00:26:00] incredibly sad. And it’s not the dentistry like you say. It’s not. It’s [00:26:05] not our care for our patients, but it becomes a massive accumulation. [00:26:10] And that’s where Payman I think we do get back to labels, you know, because we get back to the the huge burden [00:26:15] and responsibility of owning a practice, needing to make the numbers stack up, um, having [00:26:20] piles and piles and piles of more responsibility laid on you, be it through regulation or [00:26:25] taxation, remuneration and all these things where every [00:26:30] time you feel like you’re taking two steps forward, one step forward and two steps [00:26:35] back. And I know so many practice owners who feel that and they love the dentistry, they [00:26:40] just feel out of control.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but, you know, dentistry [00:26:45] business is is I mean, the word easy is, is sort of misleading, but it’s [00:26:50] an easier business to thrive in than, uh, pizza [00:26:55] shop.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, the pizza shop guy’s got taxation, he’s got remuneration. [00:27:00] He’s got all the issues that the dentist has got. Yeah. And yet the pizza shop guy isn’t [00:27:05] killing himself and the dentist is. And then you go the other way and say, oh, it’s really intricate, [00:27:10] high stress work. The brain surgeon isn’t taking his life as much [00:27:15] as the dentist is.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : But the brain surgeon isn’t running the business. The brain surgeon is getting on with brain [00:27:20] surgery. The problem is the dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Every single business.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Owner, like the pizza [00:27:25] guy, is.

Payman Langroudi: Making the pizza.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Or employing the staff.

Payman Langroudi: Or the accountant. The accountant is running. [00:27:30] The accountants running the business, the lawyers running the business. These guys aren’t taking their own lives as much as [00:27:35] dentists.

Dr Bav : I think it’s something to do with the energy as well though, right? Because you take on so much of an emotional [00:27:40] drain when patients come in to step into your room.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Dr Bav : Sometimes you’re not being [00:27:45] you. Right? You’re an actor or an actress, right? And you have got to put on this happy face, [00:27:50] uh, even though inside you may not be happy.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, you’re absolutely right.

Dr Bav : And that [00:27:55] that has got to take its toll day after day, patient after patient.

Payman Langroudi: So that [00:28:00] that thing you’re talking about of sort of being on stage, if you like. And, you know, in [00:28:05] my life I’ve done things like be a dental rep. Mhm. Yeah. When we started the company [00:28:10] we didn’t have any anyone. The internet didn’t really exist. So someone would call up from [00:28:15] wherever. Yeah. Ipswich. I’d have to get in my car work out. There was no Google.

Dr Bav : Like you said. [00:28:20] Yeah. You turned up at my father in law’s, didn’t you?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. I’d have to get up and get in my car and go there. [00:28:25] And believe you me, that’s a much harder life than being a dentist. Yeah, being a dental rep. But [00:28:30] on this question of how long are you on show? You’re on [00:28:35] show for about an hour or two a day?

Dr Bav : This is.

Payman Langroudi: It. If you’re, you know, if, I guess [00:28:40] maybe I wasn’t a very good Dental some of them maybe three hours a day at the very [00:28:45] most. Now it’s bloody hard. You gotta wake up at 5 a.m., drive, find your way there, [00:28:50] sell to the guy, come back. All those things. But you’re not on show all that time. Yeah. Being [00:28:55] being on show does take it out of you, no doubt.

Dr Bav : Yeah. But. But also, you’re inflicting pain on people. [00:29:00] You know, they’re anxious. They’re not them, you know. And [00:29:05] you know, there’s no nice way of doing what we do sometimes. But, you know, I try to make it into [00:29:10] as humorous as I can be. And, uh, you know, try to make it a nice, a pleasant experience for my patients. [00:29:15] But at the end of the day, you know, we’re working in a very sensitive area and we’re putting them [00:29:20] in very vulnerable positions.

Payman Langroudi: And by the way, by the way, loads of dentists love it. [00:29:25] Yeah, loads.

Dr Bav : I love it. You know, I love I love the profession and you know, and that’s one [00:29:30] of the reasons why we’re doing this is that, you know, we do love the profession. We want it to be great again. And we [00:29:35] want, you know, we want people to find the joy in what they do.

Payman Langroudi: Make them great [00:29:40] again.

Dr Bav : Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Get the hat. We’ve already got the hats ordered, haven’t we? Right now.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Well, make it greater, [00:29:45] right? I mean, I went into dentistry with this idea. I wanted to be a dentist who people [00:29:50] weren’t scared of. That was kind of my my challenge at the time when I went, when I went into dentistry [00:29:55] and we had literally 39 of us at the London in our year group, it was [00:30:00] tiny, and only six of us had actually chosen to do dentistry first, [00:30:05] first and foremost, the rest were still in the days of failed medics.

Payman Langroudi: Really.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : They [00:30:10] all changed their minds after med surg and doing ward rounds. They were like, actually, I’m really glad we’re [00:30:15] doing dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Um, you’ve both got kids, haven’t you?

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:30:20] have you, would you tell your kids to become dentists?

Dr Bav : I would, I [00:30:25] would. My wife wouldn’t, I would.

Payman Langroudi: Is she is.

Dr Bav : She is, she is. Yeah [00:30:30] yeah.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Yeah. My my my ex husband is a dentist. But we we would not, and [00:30:35] neither of us would be particularly keen on that.

Dr Bav : I definitely would. I think it’s a great profession.

Payman Langroudi: Well, after everything [00:30:40] that’s given you, like being a world leader, written, written books or whatever, like.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:30:45] you still wouldn’t give that opportunity to your kid.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : It’s not about giving the opportunity. They also [00:30:50] see how hard you talked about sacrifices, right? You talked about sacrifices. And [00:30:55] it’s not it’s not a job that that it’s not. I mean, no job is necessarily [00:31:00] easy, but it’s not one of those jobs that it takes really hard work to get [00:31:05] the rewards that you truly want. And so I have made a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Of if [00:31:10] if I don’t know, let’s just throw a number out here. Let’s say in your specialist [00:31:15] practice, you were pulling out £300,000 a year for the sake of the argument. Yeah. Right. In [00:31:20] any job earning you £300,000 a year, the destroy you. If [00:31:25] you if you were a lawyer. If you were a banker, if you were a if by the way, if you said I want to do it in [00:31:30] another field, like marketing or something, you’d have to be head of marketing at Procter and Gamble or something. [00:31:35] Not some dentist in Brighton. Yeah, yeah. Um, so, [00:31:40] you know, you know what I mean? The what you’re saying there, the return for the work. The work, [00:31:45] the amount in.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : No. So I’m not just talking about the money. I’m just saying the the the life, the [00:31:50] life that you want. You you have to work really hard. And for me, I’ve made a huge [00:31:55] amount of sacrifice. And, you know, I sacrificed myself to the point where [00:32:00] I became chronically ill. So that was my for me, that was my turnaround. That was my my inspiration [00:32:05] for then developing nail it to to be able to optimise your energy so that you can [00:32:10] really thrive with what you want to do. But my kids have seen that, they’ve witnessed that and they’re going to put labels [00:32:15] on that of, you know, they’ve seen me jet setting off around the world and not being necessarily being around [00:32:20] for them when they were younger because I was invited here, there and everywhere [00:32:25] to, to to speak. Um, and they want me around. So I [00:32:30] think they’ve just, they’ve, they’re inspired by a very hard working mother. But at the same [00:32:35] time, I just think they they feel they want an easier life.

Dr Bav : Yeah. And I [00:32:40] recognise that early on. So I sold my practice three, four years ago. So I had a practice in Wimpole [00:32:45] Street right. Mhm. About eight years. Seven, eight years. Um yeah. Sold that three years [00:32:50] ago. Purely because my children are six and eight and I want to be present. I want to drop [00:32:55] them to school. I want to pick them up. I don’t want to be stressing about the practice on weekends. So I made that choice. [00:33:00] And exactly as you say, Payman Dental has given me that opportunity to be able to make that choice. [00:33:05] Right. There’s not many jobs that you could say. Do you know what? I don’t want to work on Mondays. I don’t want to work on Fridays. [00:33:10] You know, I want to work, as you quite rightly say, I don’t. I’m not a morning person. I’d love to start [00:33:15] at ten, you know. But we can do that. That’s the beauty of our job and our profession. And that’s the reason [00:33:20] why I’d always sort of stick up for it and go, you know what? It’s a great profession to be in, but it’s finding that work life [00:33:25] harmony. I know, uh, I mean, uh, I’ve spoken about this quite a lot. It’s just [00:33:30] finding that I don’t want to say the word balance, but you know what I mean? It’s the it’s the finding that [00:33:35] sweet spot, let’s say.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, my my son just started aerospace [00:33:40] engineering his first year, and, um, we found out it’s all [00:33:45] defence. Like, my maybe 5% of it is, you know, formula one cars [00:33:50] and things. 95% of it is defence missiles, landing systems, you know, like planes, [00:33:55] like helmets that shoot things and and. Okay, all well [00:34:00] and good. You need aerospace engineers in the world. And then we looked at the salaries, [00:34:05] you know, the starting salaries and how quickly does it go up. And it basically doesn’t. It’s like it’s [00:34:10] awful. Like it takes ten years to get to 60 grand salary [00:34:15] or something. So he said, all right, I’m obviously not going to do that. So what am I going [00:34:20] to do? So now he’s saying, oh man, I might do a Start-Up. I might, uh, go [00:34:25] into finance, you know, and it’s all a bit in the air. And my daughter, um, she’s [00:34:30] a bit easier to manipulate. And so she’s she’s more like, [00:34:35] uh, path of least resistance. And, you know, her mum’s. My wife’s a dentist. Works one [00:34:40] and a half days, uh, a week. And she’s now said, you know, maybe I [00:34:45] want to be a dentist. And, you know, I’m happy for her. Especially as a girl. Especially [00:34:50] as a girl who can stop, start, do two days, 2 to 5 days. I [00:34:55] mean, do you think that that question of wanting it all was [00:35:00] the problem? You know, like. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Not to be the perfect wife. [00:35:05] Mother. International lecturer. Yes.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Yeah yeah yeah, yeah. The. [00:35:10] It’s the bit you touched on of perfectionism, which actually is very high. A high rates of that in dentistry. [00:35:15] Right. I had to be I had to be the best. I couldn’t be mediocre. Good enough was [00:35:20] not good enough. Everything had to be, like as good as it could possibly be. So I had to [00:35:25] be the best practice owner. Uh, the best friend, the best mother, the best lecturer, the [00:35:30] best researcher. And eventually, you know, you have to. Something has to give, right? Uh, [00:35:35] so absolutely, it’s a partly a personality thing. And.

Dr Bav : That’s one of the things that we obviously sort [00:35:40] of teach and sort of do the, um, assessments on is you’ve got to discover yourself [00:35:45] and know what your drivers are before you can help other people. Right. So you’ve got to know yourself. [00:35:50] And it goes back to your quote. It’s gone full circle is that, you know, to understand yourself. It takes time. [00:35:55] And, you know, like I say, everyone else is taken. So I’m quite mindful of the time. Um, [00:36:00] so shall we move on to your favourite pillar then of the knowledge system? Payman because [00:36:05] I’m sure arena has already got you tagged.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Write it down. Hold on.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, I like them, [00:36:10] I like them. The one I like the most is intuition. And not [00:36:15] because I’ve got this brilliant like that.

Dr Bav : Did you, did you.

Payman Langroudi: Did you write it down?

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Integrity. [00:36:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well no no I did. I looked at integrity first. Yeah. Because I like [00:36:25] integrity and I like your definition of integrity quite a lot. But in in the end, I picked intuition [00:36:30] because. And not because I’ve got a brilliant instinct. Actually, [00:36:35] quite the opposite, insomuch as I spent the first half of my life almost ignoring [00:36:40] my intuition, thinking, oh no, that’s all you know. Uh, bollocks. [00:36:45] Yeah. Are we allowed to swim? That’s that’s that. That’s all, you know, not [00:36:50] scientific. Yeah. And I almost used to go against my intuition [00:36:55] just to prove to myself that I’m like, this logical scientist. And then the second [00:37:00] half, I suddenly realised all these successful people say things like, oh, it just felt [00:37:05] wrong. And I could feel it in my in my tummy, in my stomach, you know. And I suddenly realised, oh [00:37:10] my goodness, you know, I’ve been making this mistake all these years. And now I do trust [00:37:15] my instincts a lot more. And the other thing is I really like, sort of look up to people [00:37:20] who trust their instincts because, you know, because they had it all along. And, you know, my my business [00:37:25] partner is funny. And he’ll make a decision. He can’t tell you why he doesn’t like that person [00:37:30] or that idea, but he’s so sure about it. And it used to drive me [00:37:35] crazy. But now I’ve kind of changed. And because, you know, it’s again, like a bit like that be yourself [00:37:40] thing. Once you learn something and then you change direction as [00:37:45] an adult, it really does feel really good, you know? So yeah, that’s [00:37:50] the one I like the most.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : I love that. So that’s the North Star Navigator. So it’s four [00:37:55] components. So one is about silence because we really do need to quieten ourselves enough. So [00:38:00] no distractions. We get exposed to hundreds of millions of bits of information [00:38:05] per second. So you really do need to silence it. That’s why actually people’s intuition generally does [00:38:10] tap in the most when they’re in the shower or when they’re driving, because and they’re scientific [00:38:15] fact to that. And they’ve done studies around that to show that if you’re mildly distracted with [00:38:20] an activity but silenced, then that’s when your intuition comes in. And the other bit [00:38:25] is what you touched on, which is really about trust, really needing to to trust that this [00:38:30] is truly an intuition and trust yourself. We’re back, as Batman said, to being able to be yourself. [00:38:35] So trust what’s right for you. The A from the star stands for attachment, so you need [00:38:40] to have that connection. So you need to have that connection to yourself to believe in yourself. [00:38:45] And then of course recognition recognising very much if it’s a fear, [00:38:50] if it’s a logical belief overriding it and you’re in the procrastination bit suggests [00:38:55] sometimes you get in your head, or if it truly is an intuition. So we usually encourage, [00:39:00] like if you’re starting out on intuition, just start off with a little intuition journal and just start off [00:39:05] sort of taking the actions about things you think are intuitions, and write down for yourself [00:39:10] to reflect what’s working and what isn’t until you then learn to recognise. So that’s like a [00:39:15] little tip. But yeah, I love intuition. It’s and it’s such a powerful, powerful element [00:39:20] of leadership that’s being recognised more and more nowadays. And you can train it. Don’t just have to be female [00:39:25] to have good intuition.

Payman Langroudi: I like that that you can train. It feels like that.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : It feels [00:39:30] very much so. Um. Payman. We have loved having you on. [00:39:35] Definitely. Um, yeah. There’s no no holds barred with you, that’s for sure.

Dr Bav : That [00:39:40] was a bit of a roller coaster, wasn’t it? Good.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:39:45]

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : So it’s lovely. Lovely to see you on the other side. So.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : How was [00:39:50] it for you?

Payman Langroudi: It was okay. Once I got going, you go.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Alright. Once you got going. Oh thank you.

Payman Langroudi: Catastrophize [00:39:55] things didn’t you.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Yes, exactly, exactly. Got [00:40:00] to get rid of those limiting beliefs.

Dr Bav : I need to do a part two Payman. We’ll do a part two, mate.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, anytime you [00:40:05] like.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Absolutely. Thank you so much. It’s been such a pleasure to have you.

Payman Langroudi: Lovely to [00:40:10] meet you guys.

Dr Bav : Thank you. Thank you. Payman.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : So, Bev.

Dr Bav : Yeah.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : What do you reckon? [00:40:15]

Dr Bav : Payman. Um, do you know what? He’s such a true born leader. And [00:40:20] he he’s he’s. You can tell he’s a perfectionist. And that’s why enlightened have done so well, I think, [00:40:25] and his podcast has done so well. But I don’t know if you realised halfway [00:40:30] through you do realise he’s such a good podcaster that he actually turned into a podcaster and he was [00:40:35] interviewing us. You do realise that for half of that? So I think, I think that was his defence, is [00:40:40] that his defence was his attack. So he just naturally went back to his podcasting [00:40:45] mode, which is great. We don’t mind, we don’t mind. We’ll be on the other side. Um, yeah. Yeah, [00:40:50] yeah. Exactly, exactly. And you know what? I think he’s the sort of person you could talk to for hours.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Absolutely, [00:40:55] absolutely. So thank you. Thank you for listening. [00:41:00] And we look forward to seeing you on the next episode of the podcast. Bye [00:41:05] bye for now.

Dr Bav : Thanks for listening, guys. See you later.

[INTRO]: Thanks for listening to the podcast. [00:41:10] We would love it if you would leave us a five star review. And if you’d like to feature as one of our guests or [00:41:15] you’re ready to nail it, then check out our events, programs, and educational [00:41:20] courses by visiting Dental. Com.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get to go [00:00:10] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:15] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:00:20]

Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by enlighten. Recently, one of the groups did [00:00:25] a survey to understand what is the most profitable thing that they can do in their dental chair and enlighten [00:00:30] came in as a second most profitable thing, coming in at £900 per hour. So if [00:00:35] your dental chair is busy, it should be busy doing things like enlighten. Come and join us on Enlighten [00:00:40] Online Training to fully understand how to do the process, how to talk to patients about [00:00:45] it. Deliver brilliant results every time. Enlighten online training. Com. It gives me great pleasure [00:00:50] to welcome Daniel Jones onto the podcast. Daniel is a serial entrepreneur. You’re going [00:00:55] to have to call you that now. Yes. Two three Start-Ups. Right. Um, uh, [00:01:00] Cambridge graduate studied economics and now finds himself in the Dental space, providing [00:01:05] AI powered software for the back end of dental practices [00:01:10] to make things right, to make chair [00:01:15] time as useful as possible. Give me a little summary of Medfin before we go any further.

Daniel Jones: Yeah, exactly. [00:01:20] So it’s it’s a software that essentially helps practices understand what [00:01:25] is going on in that practice. It’s like analytics. Yeah. Um, and ultimately give them [00:01:30] the roadmap to make their practice or groups work with a lot of groups, make those groups perform better, [00:01:35] like operationally and financially speaking. So I say we make software to to help dental [00:01:40] practices become more profitable.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So but then practically what happens? [00:01:45] Do I get a bunch of KPIs. Which chairs doing what. Pound per second.

Daniel Jones: Yeah, [00:01:50] exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Associate per treatment.

Daniel Jones: Exactly. So I guess traditionally when people have tried to get [00:01:55] this information in the context of groups or practices. You kind of like broadly had two options. [00:02:00] You do spreadsheets and loads of manual exports from all your systems, because one of the big problems is that [00:02:05] this is one of the problems we’re solving, is that none of the systems that Dental practices seem to use talk [00:02:10] to each other. So you have to do lots of manual reporting, chopping up the data. [00:02:15] That takes time. It’s often inaccurate. And then the other option, which is for groups, is that [00:02:20] they’ve spent a lot of money building like power BI dashboards and these sort of like custom setups, [00:02:25] which is very involved, very expensive, and is fraught with its own sort of set of problems. [00:02:30] So we built Medfin to be the sort of the third option there, where it’s software. You plug it into your systems, [00:02:35] everything draws in, calculates automatically. So you don’t have to do any of that manual calculation, [00:02:40] but you still get really rich information to basically show you, you know what? What [00:02:45] levels should I be? Should I be pulling in my dental business to improve its performance, [00:02:50] make more money?

Payman Langroudi: And from the user perspective, I use those when you say levers. [00:02:55] All right. Yeah. It tells me this chair is not performing as well as that chair. I go and chat to that associate, [00:03:00] I guess.

Daniel Jones: Yeah, exactly. So associate associate performance is a big one, right? So understanding, you [00:03:05] know, your associates, what are they doing in terms of clinical efficiency, revenue per hour, um, [00:03:10] average daily yield and then understanding why that’s a big thing. So you can have these [00:03:15] you can have these headline metrics, but often you don’t have the metrics below that to understand why. So [00:03:20] why is this person looks like they’re not as clinically efficient. Well it may be just because they’re doing a lot of [00:03:25] NHS treatment for example. And there’s nothing wrong with the way that they do dentistry. It’s just to do with their treatment split. Or [00:03:30] is it because they’re not converting new patient consultations or the treatment plan? Acceptance is low, like [00:03:35] there are so many things that you could be looking at, and our system is trying to make that as easy as possible [00:03:40] for practice owners and group owners to diagnose what is happening and how can I change [00:03:45] it? Um.

Payman Langroudi: And so your life is all about sort of connecting [00:03:50] practice management software to accounting software to is [00:03:55] that it is that is that a lot of what you.

Daniel Jones: Yeah, that’s a lot of what we do in medicine. Um, because I guess [00:04:00] the key problem is that people have all these systems, as you say, accounting software, Xero, [00:04:05] QuickBooks, sage that doesn’t talk to your practice management software and Dental or so [00:04:10] you’ve got maybe like plan patient software if you offer things. So you’ve got like a den plan portal, you’ve [00:04:15] got a CRM, you’ve got maybe a phone system, and none of them [00:04:20] necessarily communicate with each other. So you’ve got data, but it’s in like 6 or 7 different sources. [00:04:25] Lab invoices is a big one. Labs and materials. All the data for that is trapped in a PDF, [00:04:30] you know. So if you want to work out things like what’s my margin on a certain treatment to help you with pricing or [00:04:35] to understand, you know, what treatments should I be doing more of to make my practice more profitable? [00:04:40] Actually, getting to that information is bloody difficult. Um, and we help with [00:04:45] that.

Payman Langroudi: So I can I can understand clearly from a multi practice perspective it makes sense [00:04:50] to, you know, pay you some money to fix this problem. But for a single practice owner, [00:04:55] is it still viable? I mean, what’s the sort of onboarding nightmare? [00:05:00] You’re trying not to make it a nightmare, right?

Daniel Jones: Yeah, exactly. So one [00:05:05] of the things that we’ve been really focusing on is, is making onboarding as seamless [00:05:10] as possible. So if you’re a single site practice, it will take less than an hour of your time, and it’ll take [00:05:15] us a week to get set up. And then everything just flows in automatically, really. And we’ve got a lot of single [00:05:20] site practices using the platform. Um, because, you know, the interesting thing about Dental is that [00:05:25] even a single site practice is like, it’s it’s, uh, it’s a fairly big small business, you know, um, [00:05:30] in the grand scheme of things, Dental practices are profitable businesses. So. [00:05:35] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What led you to dentistry?

Daniel Jones: That’s a good question. Uh, [00:05:40] one that I get asked a lot. Um, because it’s not obvious. Right. Um, I, I, [00:05:45] I often start when people ask me that or when I hop on calls with people, or I meet people in person at conferences. [00:05:50] One of the first things I say is, you know, I’m not a dentist. I’m not a clinician. [00:05:55] Um, you know, I used to be an investment banker before going into the world of [00:06:00] Start-Ups, but I got interested in healthcare through my [00:06:05] final year of university. So when I was about 19, I got [00:06:10] I went into a GP surgery for routine. Um, it was like a basically [00:06:15] a routine check-up I’d been feeling under the weather. I had like a cough that wouldn’t go away. And when [00:06:20] you’re there, you know, you go into a GP practice and often they’ll take your blood pressure. So I remember they took my blood [00:06:25] pressure and I never forget this. They took my blood pressure. The GP looks at [00:06:30] the reading and says, oh, something, something gone wrong. Do it again. So [00:06:35] he did it again and he said, I think this is something wrong with this machine. I’ll [00:06:40] go and get another one. Do it again. And the reading is pretty much the [00:06:45] same. And it’s like sky high. And he says, you know, not to not to mince my words, [00:06:50] but you’ve got the blood pressure of a fat 65 year old smoker.

Daniel Jones: Well, um, [00:06:55] and that sparked sort of like a chain of investigations over a couple of years. And interestingly, when [00:07:00] I was younger, like when I was a baby, I had this thing called Kawasaki’s disease, which was like an [00:07:05] autoimmune disease. And one of the complications from that is that you can have [00:07:10] issues with your heart, with your arteries. So when I was growing up, [00:07:15] I used to go to cardiology units, hospitals to get my heart checked. So when they found this thing [00:07:20] with the blood pressure, they thought, oh, it can’t be as hot. So they spent a year and a [00:07:25] half testing everything in my body, kidneys and like trying to understand [00:07:30] what was causing this. Um, they’d already written off my heart because of the [00:07:35] the stuff before. They think it can’t be that I’d have [00:07:40] loads of tests. I’d have to go around all the country. And it was just a really frustrating experience. And every time, [00:07:45] you know, people would say, people say we don’t know what’s causing it. I finally, six months [00:07:50] before my final exams, went for a full body MRI, and [00:07:55] when I had this full body MRI, I remember I went to get the results and I just [00:08:00] assumed that, um, you know, I went in and like [00:08:05] every other time they’d say, we don’t know what’s wrong with you.

Daniel Jones: And I remember my girlfriend at the time said, oh, do you want me to come with [00:08:10] you? You know, thinking it’s a big thing, get the results. And I was like, no, of course not. It’s fine. Um, and [00:08:15] I went going to this room and says, look, we’ve got the results from your test [00:08:20] back. Uh, you’ve got a really serious congenital heart condition. You’ve got coarctation [00:08:25] of aorta. Aorta being the principal vessel in your heart and mind is from [00:08:30] birth. There’s a segment of it that had narrowed down to almost nothing, and [00:08:35] that was what was causing it. And they told me that if they hadn’t found it, I’d [00:08:40] have had a heart attack or a stroke by the time I was 40. Well, um, And [00:08:45] I just had such a negative, you know, it’d been missed. Even [00:08:50] after that. They told me I’d have to have open heart surgery initially. So I actually dropped out of university. [00:08:55] Or like at Cambridge, it was called, um, intermitting. So it was like [00:09:00] where I had to leave and I would come back the next year. The only reason I didn’t, I ended up completing [00:09:05] my studies that year was because my grandfather was a doctor, and he looked at my medical records and [00:09:10] he said, I don’t think you should be having this surgery.

Daniel Jones: You know, they would have sawn through my back. I’d have been sort [00:09:15] of three months, like recovery months, where I wouldn’t be able to use my arms [00:09:20] properly because of how big the surgery would be. He said, I don’t think you should be having this. And so I, [00:09:25] my family, you know, paid to get private consultations, took it back to the NHS and they [00:09:30] said, okay, fine, we’ll do a stent, which instead of like weeks and weeks in hospital, I was I was there [00:09:35] for three days and I just came out of that experience with [00:09:40] one the healthcare system that I navigated through [00:09:45] seemed to be in shambles even when I was in hospital. I remember I’d have someone come up to me [00:09:50] with the same three different nurses come up to me with the same paper form saying, can you fill this in? [00:09:55] All the times where I had to go to different specialists, they wouldn’t have my records from somewhere else. So I [00:10:00] just got this, this like sense of chaos on the organisational side within albeit [00:10:05] traditional healthcare. And when I finally got everything sorted, you know, I’m [00:10:10] okay now. I had the I had the surgery.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Daniel Jones: Yeah, I’ve got [00:10:15] a stent. When I finally came out the other side of it, I just thought this [00:10:20] this has to be able to be done better. You know, if I hadn’t have if [00:10:25] I hadn’t have had a grandfather that was a doctor. He was a GP in Wales, [00:10:30] retired. Now he’s 91. But, um, I’d [00:10:35] have I’d have had like life changing surgery and it would have completely, you know, it [00:10:40] already had a big impact, but I would have had to leave university, come back like it would have been such a massive [00:10:45] thing. And I was fortunate enough to have that. But I thought to myself, imagine if I didn’t have that. [00:10:50] Imagine how many other people out there don’t have that, or maybe don’t have the money to pay [00:10:55] for going to see a specialist cardiologist to get another another opinion. So [00:11:00] I got interested in healthcare through that. And I mean, I went into investment banking, went into Fintech [00:11:05] Start-Ups. But in the back of my mind, I was always like, I’d love to do something in healthcare. I’m a bit [00:11:10] of a nerd, so I’d like read around healthcare and like, what are the issues? And one of the big issues that I’d done a [00:11:15] lot of research into was this mess of like disconnected systems. And that [00:11:20] was one the things I found that, you know, no one would have my records when I went to different places. I mean, you’ve [00:11:25] probably found it if you move in London or move somewhere like the GP doesn’t have your records [00:11:30] from the previous place.

Payman Langroudi: It’s crazy, isn’t it, when you think about it. It’s one system. The [00:11:35] whole benefit of it being one system should be that these things should be standardised. But [00:11:40] you’re absolutely right. I mean, I’ve been through healthcare situations where it [00:11:45] was fully private. One of my best friends from school was on the surgical [00:11:50] team, so I could call him at any time I wanted. And there were still so many, [00:11:55] you know, questions that weren’t being answered or things [00:12:00] that got repeated or things that got forgotten all the time. And you. [00:12:05] It’s surprising, isn’t it? It’s surprising when you actually go through it.

Daniel Jones: And when it’s so important, you know, [00:12:10] not only is it a big industry in terms of sort of the money that people spend on healthcare, but [00:12:15] like, it’s life changing. It’s the most important thing in people’s lives. You know, [00:12:20] you can have all the money in the world, but if you’re unwell, you don’t feel like a rich person. Um, [00:12:25] and so should.

Payman Langroudi: You actually feel that, like you’re a purpose driven business [00:12:30] because of that?

Daniel Jones: Well, it’s interesting. So I think I have, [00:12:35] like, I think we’re purpose driven to to a degree. Um, [00:12:40] and I’m certainly I think I’m someone that I think [00:12:45] you can think too hard about what you’re interested in. I think there’s a lot you can overintellectualize what you want [00:12:50] to do and what you’re interested in. And I just felt this pull towards healthcare because of that experience. So to that extent, yeah. [00:12:55] Mission led. Um, but I, I guess that doesn’t really explain [00:13:00] why how I ended up in dentistry specifically. It’s vertical. So I did when I was, when I was [00:13:05] thinking of this company, I was working somewhere else at the time, you know, I had my own business and [00:13:10] I the start of the journey was basically me just [00:13:15] asking. I basically like cold call people, or I’d try and email people and say, can I get 20 [00:13:20] minutes of your time to ask you about your experience? And I spoke to people in hospitals, spoke to people at [00:13:25] GPS. Um, and unfortunately, one of the things in this country [00:13:30] is it’s very hard to do what I want to do with the NHS and NHS [00:13:35] systems. They’re they’re very difficult to integrate with.

Daniel Jones: There’s problems there are problems that even [00:13:40] if we tried incredibly hard, we couldn’t fix. And like the hostile context, almost like a bridge too [00:13:45] far. Mhm. I then looked at the US because like more, more private system, um, [00:13:50] had lots of conversations with the people in the US about maybe doing something in the hospital context [00:13:55] over there. But honestly, I thought it was a bridge too far. You know, I’ve never lived in the States. I don’t know the healthcare [00:14:00] system. I’d be operating from the UK. So then I started speaking. I was like, well, what [00:14:05] else in healthcare? Because there’s a problem in the whole of healthcare. And then I started speaking to dentists and [00:14:10] that’s really how it started. I started speaking to dentists and they said, yeah, we’ve got this exact same problem. [00:14:15] If I if I want to understand what is going on in my business, I’ve got all these, these [00:14:20] systems that don’t talk to each other. And there’s this like data aggregation problem to be to [00:14:25] be nerdy. Um, and that was really the start of the journey. And I’ve, I’ve just followed that ever [00:14:30] since.

Payman Langroudi: Um, it reminds me of fear. Do you know him from, uh, from Pearl Dental [00:14:35] Pearl?

Daniel Jones: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So I asked him the same question. He’d already had $1 billion [00:14:40] exit with his previous AI company.

Daniel Jones: Yeah, I don’t have that. Yeah. [00:14:45]

Payman Langroudi: He’s a bit older than you, but but interestingly, he’s. I asked him when when did you first start [00:14:50] looking at AI and he was like 2004 or something, you know, way ahead [00:14:55] of the game. Um, but he looked into Dental like he realised that [00:15:00] reading x rays with AI is going to be a big thing. And he said, well, why dental x [00:15:05] rays? And he said, the big thing he said was that the dental [00:15:10] practices have much more autonomy on switching systems than hospitals [00:15:15] do, which is kind of what you just alluded to. Yeah. And so for that reason, he realised [00:15:20] dentists can be quite early adopters, some of them. And so and they have autonomy to choose [00:15:25] whatever system they want. And so he pointed his software dental x rays [00:15:30] instead of any other type of x ray.

Daniel Jones: Yeah absolutely. And the other thing that, and this is one of the reasons I actually [00:15:35] really enjoy working Dental like sector in the, in the UK especially, I can’t speak to the US. I don’t have [00:15:40] experience there, but it’s so entrepreneurial. You know, like practice [00:15:45] owners often dentists, you know, all these people, entrepreneurs even associate dentists. Right. The way that it’s [00:15:50] structured in this country being self-employed. And so there’s this entrepreneurial entrepreneurial streak [00:15:55] that runs through dentistry, which makes like dental practice owners, group owners, [00:16:00] and, you know, even associates, I think think differently to some other areas in healthcare. [00:16:05] Um, there’s less inertia. You know, it’s like one of the things that really stuck out to me [00:16:10] when I speak to people in NHS trusts and the like, there was no there was no incentive to innovate [00:16:15] to to like go beyond where you are today. And dentists have [00:16:20] that, that sort of drive to innovate and be entrepreneurial and to a far, far greater degree [00:16:25] than what.

Payman Langroudi: Surprised you the most about dentistry?

Daniel Jones: It’s a good question. One [00:16:30] of the things that I’ve thought about with dentistry is it’s quite it’s quite an all consuming [00:16:35] like, um, it’s quite an all consuming career. So that’s [00:16:40] one thing that surprised me. I’ve not come across an industry where, you know, a lot of dentists, their [00:16:45] friends are also dentists. And like, there’s a lot of things that you do on the weekend. And it’s such a tight knit community, [00:16:50] which I think is great. You know, everyone seems to know each other. Um, you know, [00:16:55] I remember in the early days, like when I was doing the research stuff, you know, I speak to one person and I managed to get [00:17:00] someone else in a completely different part of the country on a call. They’d be like, oh, yeah, I heard you spoke to doctor [00:17:05] X. My, you know, my mate the other day. Yeah. How do you know that? Um, [00:17:10] so that’s I think that’s.

Payman Langroudi: A very small community.

Daniel Jones: 100%, given it’s such a big industry, like, um, [00:17:15] that’s that’s the thing that’s really surprised me, but I think it’s got its massive pluses, like, um.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:17:20] about negatives? Like what surprised you? Negatively.

Daniel Jones: Negatively?

Payman Langroudi: I mean, have you come across, [00:17:25] for instance, the egos in dentistry? Has that happened to you yet? Yeah, I think so.

Daniel Jones: I [00:17:30] think so. I think so, although I think that’s something that you often see with medical [00:17:35] professionals generally. It’s not just in dentistry. Um, so yeah, you see that, but I mean, I used [00:17:40] to work in finance, so, um, a lot of, uh, there’s a lot of that. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Also, you know, [00:17:45] working in big companies, people have like the sort of guardrails in terms of what they can say [00:17:50] and do. You know, there’s that sort of politicking of a big company. You know, finance companies [00:17:55] tend to be big companies. But dentists, it’s interesting because the majority of of practice [00:18:00] owners are these guys who by themselves started a practice, and [00:18:05] many of them are like, you know, some of the most successful people in their towns, right? And so [00:18:10] that kind of gives you a bit of ego driven thing. And then you’ve got the cover [00:18:15] of I’m, I’m want to do the best thing for my patient. And [00:18:20] under that cover we can be awful to each other like really nasty [00:18:25] to each other. Um, based on, um, you know, do the best for my patient. Yeah. [00:18:30] I think that combination of things together, you know, the a lot of us haven’t had any training in [00:18:35] that sort of politicking of the corporate world where there are certain things you can’t say and do, where [00:18:40] everyone’s very sort of conservative. We haven’t had any of that. And then we’ve started [00:18:45] businesses that maybe are doing quite well for our little, you know, like you say, a big little [00:18:50] business. And then we’ve got this thing about the patient and [00:18:55] how, you know, a dentist is often the king of his castle as he in his practice. Yeah. And [00:19:00] what surprised me about going around a lot of dental practices is how different they all are. Because you [00:19:05] imagine, basically it’s the same thing. But no, there’s [00:19:10] a lot of difference culturally. I mean, there are some very happy practices and then some very sad [00:19:15] ones. Um, and it’s funny how like even with seven staff, you can [00:19:20] have two teams fighting with each other. Yeah. You’ve not come [00:19:25] across all this yet.

Daniel Jones: Well, so it’s interesting when I so when I first [00:19:30] started speaking to dentists, just to sort of get a sense of where priorities lay, etc., [00:19:35] the first question I would ask is, you know, what’s your biggest problem today? You know, [00:19:40] if you could have someone come wave a magic wand and that problem would be fixed. Like, what’s the thing [00:19:45] that first jumps to mind? And 95% of [00:19:50] people said like staff and HR. Um, run like the day to day running [00:19:55] of the practice, the sort of management of people within the practice. That was I [00:20:00] mean, almost everyone said that. So yeah, I’ve had a [00:20:05] I’ve had a window into, into that world for sure. From speaking to speaking to practice owners [00:20:10] and group owners.

Payman Langroudi: Where are you at right now? So you just raised £1.5 million.

Daniel Jones: Yeah. [00:20:15] So we raised £1.5 million from venture capital investors back in back in December [00:20:20] now.

Payman Langroudi: So what’s your what do you reckon is your runway now with that. How long can you keep going?

Daniel Jones: Almost [00:20:25] like two. Basically two years. Two years.

Payman Langroudi: So does [00:20:30] that mean in two years time you have to find more finance or be profitable? To the.

Daniel Jones: Point? Yes. [00:20:35] I mean, the way that you calculate, the way they calculate that is basically what’s your monthly burn over how much money you’ve [00:20:40] got left? I think we’re growing at such a rate that that will [00:20:45] if like the runway will prolong, if that makes sense.

Payman Langroudi: So some money will come in.

Daniel Jones: Yeah, exactly. [00:20:50] You know, we’ve got we’ve got lots of paying customers already today. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And is it like [00:20:55] a SaaS product?

Daniel Jones: Exactly. So it’s subscription. It’s subscription product. You pay subscription get. [00:21:00]

Payman Langroudi: Depending on the number of users.

Daniel Jones: So the way this is a good question actually. [00:21:05] So when, when we first started, I’ll be honest I wasn’t sure. You know, when you first have a product, sometimes [00:21:10] you don’t know how to price it. And one of the things that you do to understand how to price something [00:21:15] is you look at other things similar to it in the market and price it on that, whereas [00:21:20] there.

Payman Langroudi: Aren’t are not many.

Daniel Jones: Exactly, and not really for what we want to do. [00:21:25] So we had to sort of think about it more from first principles [00:21:30] and the the day I knew that we should we basically price on the number [00:21:35] of like active surgeries at a practice. So how many surgeries you’ve got in use at a practice on a [00:21:40] per site basis day? I knew we should do that. It was. I went in the same day. I went to visit [00:21:45] a, um, practice in, um, London that was doing [00:21:50] like around 700,000 in, in revenues, like Scott practice. [00:21:55] Um, and then there’s a few few hours later, I was on [00:22:00] a call with a guy in Wales, like cosmetic focus practice, like 3.5 million in revenue. [00:22:05] It just occurred to me, I cannot charge these people the same price for the software. It doesn’t make any sense. [00:22:10] So that’s how we landed on the the the per site and person like [00:22:15] surgeries per site. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what is the cost.

Daniel Jones: So the cost it depends [00:22:20] on it starts at like 149 per month for one surgery and goes up in £50 [00:22:25] increments. Mhm. Mhm. And that’s monthly.

Payman Langroudi: So I guess the [00:22:30] pitch is that you’re going to save way more than that every month right.

Daniel Jones: Yeah I mean that’s what. [00:22:35] Absolutely. Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: That’s uh give me, give me an insight like an example of an insight [00:22:40] that someone found. Yeah. When, you know, if before before they had your [00:22:45] software, they had no idea. And then the software kind of alerted them to something and they managed to move [00:22:50] the right lever. Like, give me some examples.

Daniel Jones: Yeah. So one of our early customers who has a seven [00:22:55] surgery practice in the Midlands. So one of the things that the software does is it looks [00:23:00] at like your associate, um, performance and goes quite in depth on that. So you start with the sort [00:23:05] of headline metrics like that’s production per hour, how many udas you’re doing, etc., your average daily yield. [00:23:10] And we have them in sort of like a, a live view [00:23:15] sort of table. So you can see them how they compare to one another and the [00:23:20] associate in his practice that worked the most. So there’s associate in practice [00:23:25] that did the most hours out of anyone, even more than the two principals of this practice. It was the absolute workhorse. [00:23:30] But the sort of telltale sign that sparked an investigation was that his [00:23:35] production per hour was like, I think £35 below the practice average. It’s [00:23:40] like, well, you know, why is that the case? So using our platform, you can go through and you can [00:23:45] have a look at, you know, what is his average treatment plan value. What is he charging [00:23:50] relative to other people in the practice across a range of treatments. And so the practice owner and [00:23:55] this was the early days who actually went through with him.

Daniel Jones: We looked through all this [00:24:00] and we realised this guy is underpricing relative to everyone else in the practice by like quite [00:24:05] a significant degree. It’s basically just hadn’t raised his prices in line with, you [00:24:10] know, everyone else over the course of a few years and this hadn’t been picked up. So [00:24:15] the principal sat down with his associate and basically just walked him [00:24:20] through the data. And data is really useful for taking the sting out of conversations like this. You know, [00:24:25] if you say to someone, oh, you should be doing better and you know, you’re not, you’re not, you’re not doing well enough. You’re not efficient [00:24:30] enough, that can feel quite personal. Whereas if you can just say, well, this is [00:24:35] your headline metric. This is the things that are contributing to it. He had a conversation about basically [00:24:40] raising his prices. And it’s useful because you can see what other people in the practice charge and say, look, all you’re [00:24:45] doing is bringing yourself in line with everyone else. You’re not charging more than anyone else. You’re just bringing yourself in line. And [00:24:50] the nice thing about dentistry is, obviously as an associate, you benefit from that also. It’s not like a salaried job. [00:24:55] You also take home more at the end of, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Well, I think there is some nuance [00:25:00] in it that you need to be aware of. I don’t know whether whether you are or or, [00:25:05] for instance, that principle also needs to be aware of, insomuch as [00:25:10] a dentist doesn’t get paid for talking to a patient immediately, [00:25:15] but it does get paid for talking to patients eventually. [00:25:20] And it gets paid a lot eventually for talking to patients. So you could look [00:25:25] at someone, some dentists, uh, hourly rate thing and it might not be [00:25:30] that great. But for instance, one nuances if you join a practice [00:25:35] in the first check-up. So it’s the first six month [00:25:40] cycle of seeing patients. You may not want to rock the boat. [00:25:45] You may, you may, you may be in that trust phase. Yeah. And I say I’d say it’s super smart as [00:25:50] an associate in the first six months just to be very super conservative and just have lots [00:25:55] of conversations. Let the word get around that community that a good guy has [00:26:00] has now arrived, and it could be three years down the road. Those guys are going for full mouth [00:26:05] rehab at 50 grand because of the work you put in at the beginning. And so [00:26:10] although you’re right that we don’t have enough statistics that are meaningful [00:26:15] in running a dental practice. You’re completely right. And a lot of us are measuring things that we [00:26:20] never even do anything about. Which is another big disease. You know, since since this [00:26:25] KPI, the word KPIs has come into dental practice management. Everyone’s trying [00:26:30] to get KPIs. Um, but that immeasurable element [00:26:35] of it. I mean, for instance, if I was a practice owner and I had one guy [00:26:40] earning £180 an hour and the other guy earning £160, [00:26:45] a level of £110 an hour. But the guy who was earning less was loved by [00:26:50] his patients. That’s a much better associate, because love in a dental [00:26:55] practice creates word of mouth and so on. Have you have you had come across these sort [00:27:00] of issues?

Daniel Jones: Yeah. So I think the way that we think about it is that we [00:27:05] wouldn’t necessarily we wouldn’t advise someone just take [00:27:10] purely.

Payman Langroudi: Look at the stats.

Daniel Jones: Yeah, but it’s about giving them a clear part of part [00:27:15] of the picture, if that makes sense. Yeah. So and that’s why it’s [00:27:20] important to arm sort of the, the principal on the ground or the practice manager. The people that can understand that [00:27:25] nuance because it’s very what you’re describing is absolutely correct. But it’s very it’s [00:27:30] very difficult, if not impossible to pick that up in just like data or numbers. [00:27:35] And so it’s about giving people with that context that have that nuance. The [00:27:40] numbers also to be able and then they can use what’s in their brain and their experience [00:27:45] and what they know about that particular associate or that practice combined with the [00:27:50] numbers to make a good decision, if that makes sense. Yeah. So. Absolutely, [00:27:55] absolutely. So it’s the but at the moment, I think a lot of what a lot of practices and groups [00:28:00] lack is even the sort of clear picture to go alongside what they have in their [00:28:05] heads in that nuance and the knowledge. So in this case, for example, you know, he was a well-established [00:28:10] associate and been there. And patients did really like him. Um, they did love him. And [00:28:15] it wasn’t a big uplift in prices, but we calculated it was like if [00:28:20] he worked the same amount of hours, it was for the practice, not just for him, but for [00:28:25] the practice. It’s like 18 K’s worth of EBITDA at the end of the year. And what’s interesting [00:28:30] with our platform, after we can see after you can see the performance. After you can see what happens after that. [00:28:35] Um, so you can actually track what’s going on. So yeah, I think there’s, [00:28:40] there’s huge value to be had. But you’re absolutely right. It needs to be tempered with the experience, [00:28:45] the knowledge of the people that are there that have that full context.

Payman Langroudi: And on the other side [00:28:50] of it, probably there’s plenty of associates who are losing money [00:28:55] for their practice. Yeah.

Daniel Jones: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Without [00:29:00] anyone being aware of of that. And so have you got any sort of range [00:29:05] of daily sort of takings, daily revenue that an associate needs to [00:29:10] be doing in an average practice to be profitable.

Daniel Jones: So it’s a great question. Um, [00:29:15] this is one of the things that we want, want to like, solve in and we’re, [00:29:20] we’re very close to doing this next month. This will be rolled out onto the platform today. [00:29:25] When you look at when people have tried to assess things in dentistry, it’s always been, for example, as you said, [00:29:30] like 80 or revenue per hour. But you know, why do you why why [00:29:35] do you run a business? There’s lots of different reasons why someone would run a business, but ultimately a business has [00:29:40] to survive on what’s left after you pay everything. Right. It’s, um, revenue [00:29:45] is, is is great to have. It’s got to translate into something on the bottom line. [00:29:50] Um, so just looking at revenue can give you quite a misleading picture. So someone that [00:29:55] does £200 per hour, let’s say in one part of the country, a particular [00:30:00] practice might be way in the green, but someone doing £200 per hour at another practice [00:30:05] with higher costs. Maybe it’s a more premium practice. Maybe it’s in central London. Then they won’t be. [00:30:10] So you need to bring that data in. Like what does the cost base look like? What is your [00:30:15] operating cost per surgery per day. And then how much does that actually bring it in. And that [00:30:20] that’s what you need to look at. So I’m slightly loathe [00:30:25] to say like this is what good looks like because it really it just really depends. It really depends on your practice. [00:30:30] And that’s why having the practice specific context and numbers and data is [00:30:35] important.

Payman Langroudi: So why do I even feed in how much I’m spending on marketing and all of that.

Daniel Jones: Yeah. Because the [00:30:40] where that lives, it lives in like your accounting system. So it lives in with zero. We connect in with zero QuickBooks, [00:30:45] etc. so you can pull that data. And this is what’s interesting about what we do is that even [00:30:50] five years ago, probably less, it would have been very difficult to build [00:30:55] what we’ve built because you need ways of connecting in with these different data sources. Now [00:31:00] Xero and QuickBooks, you know, these are huge global tech companies, I think zero is worth [00:31:05] a few billion. It’s massive. Um, so they’ve got a good API, which allows [00:31:10] you to connect in with stuff, but it’s only just the case in the last few years, that cloud like practice [00:31:15] management software has really taken off. And if you don’t have cloud practice management software, it’s very difficult to get data [00:31:20] out of it. There’s no real APIs, etc. so we’re in some ways like a product [00:31:25] of the time. Like this is just becoming really possible because more and more practices are using [00:31:30] tech that allows you to to do that.

Payman Langroudi: So have you found some PMS are easier to connect to than [00:31:35] others, and are you still not connected to all of them?

Daniel Jones: Yeah, we’re still not connected to all of them.

Payman Langroudi: So which are the ones [00:31:40] you’re connected.

Daniel Jones: To and the principal only connect in with today is Dentally. So most of our customers, [00:31:45] like all of our customers today, are on Dental.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so you’re kind of limited by that.

Daniel Jones: Um. [00:31:50]

Payman Langroudi: Dental is growing so quickly. You’ve got plenty of customers to work on.

Daniel Jones: Yeah, exactly. And to an extent, [00:31:55] I mean, the vision is that not.

Payman Langroudi: Stack, by the way?

Daniel Jones: Well, so this [00:32:00] is the thing the vision is that we will be what you might call PMS agnostic so we can connect in with any [00:32:05] PMS. Like the vision really is that we want to connect in with any system that Dental practices. Pms or [00:32:10] not? Yeah. Um, it’s just those integrations take time. And, you know, uh, I think [00:32:15] if my software and the software engineers that work at Medford listening, they probably think [00:32:20] I don’t get enough sleep as it is. Um, so it’s more of a sequencing thing we want to integrate [00:32:25] with Care Stack. We want to integrate with systems of dentists, and then all the other tools people box, [00:32:30] the den grow and all these tools will get there.

Payman Langroudi: Nhs stuff as [00:32:35] well. Right. The compass or whatever it’s called.

Daniel Jones: Well, so that’s, uh.

Payman Langroudi: That was your nightmare.

Daniel Jones: Yeah. [00:32:40] Yeah. Well, the thing is, is that the NHS, the problem the problem is there’s a lot of great things about the NHS. [00:32:45] But there’s the problem really, is that they don’t have that incentive to [00:32:50] innovate. Really. And they’re quite in quite the same way.

Payman Langroudi: So getting your targets mainly a fully private. [00:32:55]

Daniel Jones: No. We work with a lot of mixed practices actually. Yeah. And I would say that mixed practices maybe get even more value out [00:33:00] the valuable platform because we’ve got really we’ve got a lot of stuff that looks at like your UDA you’re tracking, are you [00:33:05] on track? How many should you be delivering, how many UDA is each associate delivering, etc.. Really? [00:33:10] Yeah. So, um, we serve all types of practices, but getting data out [00:33:15] of compass is difficult. There’s no nice API for that as I mean, it’s an NHS system. So yeah. [00:33:20]

Payman Langroudi: So want to talk about starting up and [00:33:25] the process of finding these engineers like inspiring. So it’s not a very [00:33:30] inspirational subject. I know you’re very inspired by it. It’s nice man. It’s nice that you’re inspired by it. But [00:33:35] I can imagine when you’re selling this idea to some chief [00:33:40] technology guy, I guess they’re they’re into numbers and stuff anyway. But but, you know, [00:33:45] inspiring others to come on this journey with you and then selling your story [00:33:50] to investors. And I guess your previous business was, was kind of to connect founders with investors [00:33:55] anyway. So you kind of but just take me from the process of I’m going [00:34:00] to do that. You know, like and we all have lots of ideas, don’t we? And I for [00:34:05] me, it’s the idea that I end up doing is the one that just keeps on coming back. [00:34:10] You know, it doesn’t disappear. It just keeps on coming back again and again. So take me [00:34:15] through that process. You decided I’m going to look at solving problems for dentists with AI. [00:34:20] Yeah. By the way, where’s the AI in all of this? What does what does AI mean when [00:34:25] we’re talking about this?

Daniel Jones: Loads of things. Um, George, do you want to touch on there first? [00:34:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Daniel Jones: Okay. Sure. So we use AI in a few different ways. So, um, [00:34:35] the first is in actually cleaning the data. So what’s interesting is data [00:34:40] coming especially from practice management software. And again I appreciate this isn’t the sexiest [00:34:45] of topics. I spend my life looking into it. So I get excited about it. Um, but [00:34:50] when you look at stuff from the practice management software, the way that people use the [00:34:55] software, etc. can make the data that comes out of it misleading or just wrong. Um, [00:35:00] and so there’s lots of different ways that we need to correct for that. Now, if you build a [00:35:05] system where you do all these manual patches, you’re basically [00:35:10] ending up like duct taping, lots of different things. And one of the amazing things with AI is that it can you can basically [00:35:15] build an engine that’s very flexible, so you can let it loose on a data set, and it’s going to be able to detect, [00:35:20] you know, this looks wrong, why is it wrong. And it can tell you why it’s wrong, for example. So one [00:35:25] of the big ways that we like there’s loads of different ways that data goes wrong. I mean, we’ve [00:35:30] documented like 40 plus examples of data going wrong in [00:35:35] PMS to give you like a concrete example, when you’re looking at treatment plan acceptance [00:35:40] for an associate. So how good is this associate presenting treatment plans? [00:35:45] Do they get accepted? When we were first building medicine, we [00:35:50] were looking at these numbers and we’re thinking that seems low, like, you know, 20, 2,025%. [00:35:55] Um, and so we’re digging into why. And we realised that [00:36:00] most clinicians will create several treatment plans for one patient as options.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Daniel Jones: But [00:36:05] when you just look at the raw data on how many treatment plans have been created and how many have [00:36:10] been accepted, you know, I could come in or you could come into practice and they’ll draw up three different [00:36:15] plans for you, but it’s only for one. It’s only for one treatment plan, really. You decide to go ahead with that. [00:36:20] If you look at the data from the PMS, it shows that the dentists got.

Payman Langroudi: 60% drop on your conversion [00:36:25] rate.

Daniel Jones: Exactly. So we have to build we’ve built like an AI engine to clean for that sort of thing. [00:36:30] The other way, like the way that I get really excited about this, that we’re using AI [00:36:35] is bridging the gap between like your numbers and interpreting them and the insights. [00:36:40] So the future of data analysis, in my opinion, I’m quite nerdy on this is like before [00:36:45] we had think about the evolution of it. You had spreadsheets like static [00:36:50] spreadsheets. Yeah. You then come into the age of more like dynamic dashboards, [00:36:55] which is kind of like Medfin v1, if you like. Although we’ve we’ve got one [00:37:00] about to go on to another platform as well. The future, though, is that you’ll be able to basically speak [00:37:05] to your data, and your data will be able to speak to you. And the way that that works is that you have to [00:37:10] have your data in a specific sort of architecture and set up an LMS. Can large [00:37:15] language models can look at that data a bit, like when you ask ChatGPT. So with our platform today, I [00:37:20] could ask you could be a practitioner. You could ask, you know, last month who are my top three performing associates [00:37:25] and why did they perform well? Um, and it would give you an answer based on your data. [00:37:30] Now, I don’t know anyone that prefers to stare at reams of data on dashboards [00:37:35] than than that. It’s just the more intuitive way. Because often when you log into something like that, you’re looking for [00:37:40] an answer on something. Um, we’re able to use it to like, write weekly and monthly reports for practices. [00:37:45] So practices are key in this are the things I care about. These are the targets maybe. [00:37:50] And the AI is going to be able to write a report, send it to you in a PDF that it’s [00:37:55] written saying, this is how you’re doing, this is why things are happening. Um, and that [00:38:00] is the future of data analysis. And that’s where we’re putting a lot of focus today. So yeah, that’s there’s [00:38:05] a couple of ways we use AI.

Payman Langroudi: So how about areas that you don’t know [00:38:10] about yet. I mean for I mean for a start there’s a hallucination question right [00:38:15] as well.

Daniel Jones: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have you have you come across that.

Daniel Jones: Well, so, um, do you want to get really nerdy [00:38:20] about this?

Payman Langroudi: Let’s do this.

Daniel Jones: So, um, I was actually I’ve been speaking with [00:38:25] a few people about this recently, and there’s a big there’s big, this big issue with hallucinating, [00:38:30] and there’s sort of meme doing the rounds and the sort of data nerd world where someone [00:38:35] chucks in a, like a spreadsheet into chat into ChatGPT and says, can you visualise this data [00:38:40] for me? Chatgpt makes loads of charts, looks very pretty, looks very [00:38:45] nice, and then the person responds, this doesn’t look right. Did you make these numbers up? And [00:38:50] ChatGPT responds, yes, you’re absolutely right. I wasn’t [00:38:55] able to open the CSV file. Um, and this is one of the big problems AI is never going to tell you. [00:39:00] It’s just going to make stuff up, basically. Um, and this is really the limitation [00:39:05] of like chucking things into ChatGPT in order to get them. [00:39:10] In order to have something, not hallucinate and answer correctly, you [00:39:15] need to have something in your data architecture, a data architecture. So there’s a database. And [00:39:20] the thing that sits on top of the database is this thing called a semantic layer. Um, and you can think of it like a [00:39:25] translation layer. So, um, let’s say I, I type [00:39:30] in to like the Medfin platform, you know, how does payments treatment affect [00:39:35] his performance. And lamb is going to take [00:39:40] the word treatment mix. But in a database where you’ve just got columns of things, it’ll be like, [00:39:45] you know, with with no names often or just like a code for the name.

Daniel Jones: If [00:39:50] you don’t have that semantic layer, the LM doesn’t know what treatment mix is in the context of the database, [00:39:55] so it can’t answer it properly. So it’s going to get it wrong. So because there’s nothing in that database called treatment mix. [00:40:00] So you need to build this like very very crucial part of your data architecture which is very hard to do [00:40:05] called semantic layer to to give the LM context. And once you do that the accuracy [00:40:10] goes up like exponentially. So that’s, that’s that’s something that we’ve got in our data architecture. [00:40:15] We spend a lot of time working on. Um, but yeah, there’s, there’s horror stories with, with ChatGPT [00:40:20] just make, just make stuff up. You know, even in the early days with, uh, with [00:40:25] chatbots, I remember when, like, customer service, sort of like customer service departments [00:40:30] were rolling it out. People were tricking chatbots into giving them free tickets. I think British Airways had like a problem [00:40:35] where it’s like, yeah, sure, I’ll sell you this ticket for like one pence and there’s ways to break it. Um, [00:40:40] so a lot of work has to go into basically giving that [00:40:45] AI, the right context and the right architecture to perform well, it’s not as simple as just [00:40:50] letting it loose. If that makes sense.

Payman Langroudi: Back to the previous question. The idea [00:40:55] your first employee. Your first investor. Talk [00:41:00] me through that, because there’s plenty of people who have ideas. And I think in this AI world, [00:41:05] we’re less now. I remember before making my children [00:41:10] tell me like ideas, nothing without action and all of that. In this AI world, action becomes [00:41:15] a lot easier. And there’s people listening to this thinking, I’ve got an idea. Yeah, [00:41:20] well, take me through the process. I mean, what happened [00:41:25] in this company, in your previous company? What were the lessons you learned? I’d [00:41:30] like to go into the question of sort of tenacity on one side, pivoting [00:41:35] from a bad idea on the other side, how you recognise those things. Tell me the story of it. [00:41:40]

Daniel Jones: Yeah, sure. So. I mean, the overarching lesson [00:41:45] I drew from both companies, I touch on, you know, the story of them both was find [00:41:50] a good co-founder. Um, I’m very blessed to have an amazing co-founder [00:41:55] of my and my co-founder, Matt.

Payman Langroudi: And he’s the technical guy.

Daniel Jones: He’s the technical guy. He’s the brains. [00:42:00]

Payman Langroudi: You’re not technical at all. Really? Uh, well, barely.

Daniel Jones: Yeah, I you know, I know.

Payman Langroudi: I write code [00:42:05] or anything.

Daniel Jones: Not really. No. Um, I know little bits, but, like, [00:42:10] you wouldn’t want me doing the coding. So, um. Yeah. [00:42:15] Finding good co-founders. I think entrepreneurship, like. And maybe many of the people listening [00:42:20] to this will will be entrepreneurs in the sense of their own practices. Um, [00:42:25] it’s hard, right? Like, it’s a hard journey to go through this. Before this podcast started [00:42:30] and we were talking about ups and downs in that entrepreneurship journey and knowing when, [00:42:35] to your point on tenacity, knowing when to to pack it in or to keep going. And [00:42:40] is that win just around the corner. The hard times going to end with [00:42:45] just one thing about to happen. You don’t want to pack it in just in case. Yeah. Um, and [00:42:50] I think that having like a co-founder that really complements your [00:42:55] skill set is important, but also like, understands you. Um, [00:43:00] most entrepreneurs will see their co-founder like, more than they see their significant other. You know, [00:43:05] um, I see Matt more than I see anyone else like my family. You know, [00:43:10] friends like relationships, all that. And so that [00:43:15] I think I founded embark, the company had before with Matt as well. So it’s like when you found it.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [00:43:20]

Daniel Jones: Yeah, yeah. When you find a good co-founder, keep hold of him. Um, so that’s that’s [00:43:25] the first thing. But the first, the first company I started to embark was like, to be honest, a bit of an [00:43:30] accidental, um, founding story. So when I left investment banking, to [00:43:35] give you a bit of context here, I always [00:43:40] sort of like from like 15, 16. I was like, I want to go into investment banking. I think [00:43:45] I was like, you know, I read in the papers online that investment bankers get paid the most and it’s really prestigious. [00:43:50] And I where.

Payman Langroudi: Did you grow up?

Daniel Jones: Um, in Cheshire, near Manchester. Oh, [00:43:55] um, I went to a school where people were like, basically, if you [00:44:00] are smart and ambitious, you go into like a professional services sort of job or banking [00:44:05] or, you know, become a corporate lawyer. So these were funnelled towards that. And [00:44:10] I was like, that’s what I’m gonna do. I’m gonna go into banking and do my sort of two years there and go into private equity and make [00:44:15] a load of money and be, you know, be the be the man. And then I got there [00:44:20] and it just wasn’t for me on a number of levels. Um, like, [00:44:25] it’s great. A lot of my friends, like, still working. It was great experience, but it’s not what I wanted to do for [00:44:30] the rest of my life.

Payman Langroudi: And what was the main problem with it? Cut through?

Daniel Jones: Not [00:44:35] so much that it was cutthroat. It was more, Er, I just didn’t enjoy [00:44:40] the work. And, you know, uh, I would say I’m like, fairly like creative person. [00:44:45] Um, and it was like the least creative environment. It was incredibly hierarchical. [00:44:50] Um, like you’re just stuck in front of it. You didn’t speak to people. I [00:44:55] love speaking to people. Um, I was stuck in front of a computer for literally, like 16 hours [00:45:00] every day. Um, so it was there’s a number of I can go into if you want. There’s a number [00:45:05] of things. Um, but when I left that I [00:45:10] found I joined this Start-Up. I was like the third hire. It was a tiny Start-Up. I walked in first [00:45:15] day, like, didn’t even have my sort of, like, laptop set up. It was boxes everywhere. And I was kind of thinking, [00:45:20] what on earth have I done? Um, and so I went from this thing that [00:45:25] all, all of the networking and prep and everyone I knew was in this world I’d just left behind, [00:45:30] and I’d entered this new world, and I didn’t know anyone really. So I was like, well, [00:45:35] how do I get to know people? I can go for loads of coffees with people, reach [00:45:40] out to people on LinkedIn or whatever. But I thought that’s not like the best way of doing it. So I [00:45:45] made a list of people that I knew in the space was like, not necessarily. I knew them well. Seven people long, [00:45:50] and I reached out to each of them and said, can we can we chat and sort of through those chats? [00:45:55] Um, basically, I found other [00:46:00] people with the same problem, you know, they didn’t know that many people in the space. [00:46:05] They thought, well, why don’t we start something, start like a community of people that are really [00:46:10] interested in founding specifically like tech, tech businesses. That’s what I thought I wanted [00:46:15] to explore with you.

Payman Langroudi: Some of your classmates from uni?

Daniel Jones: Yeah, classmates from uni people. I went to school [00:46:20] with, just people from sort of like the London people I met in London, friends of friends. And [00:46:25] um, yeah, the first meetup was was in a pub. [00:46:30] It was like eight people. And then that really just snowballed, like people [00:46:35] wanted. It seemed like people wanted to be a part of a community. People looking for other people [00:46:40] that were also thinking about this sort of thing that they wanted to learn from, maybe find co-founders. And [00:46:45] over the course of a couple of years, we grew to like 1800 members across London and Berlin.

Payman Langroudi: Exciting. [00:46:50]

Daniel Jones: Yeah, we collaborated with all the biggest names in tech. Um, so that was that was really like, find [00:46:55] something solve. I was solving my own problem. Yeah. And then you roll with it. There was no, like, as much [00:47:00] as I’d love to sit here and say, yeah, you know, master plan, I orchestrated this. It just that [00:47:05] was just not just was not the case. Um, sort of.

Payman Langroudi: Some companies came out of that, right? [00:47:10]

Daniel Jones: Yeah, yeah. So it was, um, in fact, just before I came. So I came from Paddington today. We’re based in a [00:47:15] office building there. One of the companies that came out of that, um, one of the founders was working [00:47:20] in that building today, so I said hi to him just for this podcast.

Payman Langroudi: Very nice.

Daniel Jones: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:47:25] then you left it.

Daniel Jones: Yeah. Then I left it. Um, I mean, it was very like it was going [00:47:30] well, um, one of the interesting things with the community sort of business. I mean, we monetise [00:47:35] around the community. It was free to be a part of was that it’s one of the only businesses in the world [00:47:40] where your growth and the quality of your product move in opposite directions. So if you think of a software, [00:47:45] the better we make our products, you know, you’d hope that growth would also move that way. [00:47:50]

Payman Langroudi: Kind of.

Daniel Jones: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But so as [00:47:55] the community gets too large, it’s just becomes unmanageable. Is that what you mean?

Daniel Jones: Yeah. People [00:48:00] don’t know each other, right?

Payman Langroudi: Like, it’s not a community anymore. Community anymore.

Daniel Jones: It’s just.

Payman Langroudi: Like a.

Daniel Jones: Big, uh. [00:48:05] Yeah. Town. It’s just a big WhatsApp group. No one wants to be in the group because it’s like so many other people [00:48:10] there. So it made sense to keep it smaller.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:48:15] so on that, on that question of tenacity and pivoting, did you consider. I’ve [00:48:20] got something here. Should I pivot it or you just decide to leave? I mean, like, what [00:48:25] was going through your head?

Daniel Jones: Yeah, it’s it’s a good question, actually. Um, I [00:48:30] think it was this. Like I would say, I’m a very ambitious person. Um, [00:48:35] and I think it was the sense that this isn’t like the vehicle for that ambition, you know, like, [00:48:40] I it was amazing. Like, I loved it. Um, it’s probably the most fun thing I’ve [00:48:45] done in my life so far because it was just a community. I just got to meet so many amazing people, like [00:48:50] people that want to go out and change the world and really creative and driven. Um, but [00:48:55] I just got this sense of there was a ceiling with it. And so I [00:49:00] decided to wait and I passed it on to, um, like, [00:49:05] management, new management, um, who took it forward. And then we actually got [00:49:10] that business got acquired recently. So two months ago. This is a business called opus, um, [00:49:15] who are building like a you can think of it really like a Soho House for entrepreneurs. [00:49:20] Um, um, they acquired the community a couple months back. So it was an amazing [00:49:25] journey. But yeah, I think it was just like I wanted to do and do something. I’m a sort of itchy. [00:49:30] Itchy sort of guy in many ways. I want to I chase [00:49:35] sometimes if I think where I’m at isn’t help, isn’t helping [00:49:40] me to get where I want to go. And I think that’s what I felt when I was in banking. You know, I felt quite. Trapped. [00:49:45] Constrained. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Have you always been [00:49:50] ambitious? Like, were you an ambitious seven year old?

Daniel Jones: Good question. [00:49:55] I know that my mum says I’ve always been very, like, determined. She says that one of like, uh, [00:50:00] even when I was, like, learning to walk. She said, like, you just like, get up and fall over and you just [00:50:05] keep doing it over and over and over. Um, I mean, I obviously don’t remember that. [00:50:10]

Payman Langroudi: But do you remember an inflection point in your sort of childhood, that sort of where [00:50:15] you thought, I mean, look, it takes a degree of obsession, doesn’t it, to get into [00:50:20] Cambridge and all that and be that studier kid. Do you remember some inflection point, like [00:50:25] something, something in childhood that made you that person?

Daniel Jones: Yeah, I do actually. Um, so [00:50:30] I remember I was always at school. I was always like, [00:50:35] um, like pre GCSEs. Let’s say I’d always manage to sort of, like, coast my way through, [00:50:40] um, and get pretty, like, pretty good grades. I was quite naughty kid at school. I [00:50:45] got suspended a bunch of times. I had a pretty poor behavioural record pre like GCSEs. [00:50:50] And I remember I did my GCSEs, I got, you know, I got, [00:50:55] I got really good grades but um I’m mum if you’re [00:51:00] listening you’ll, she’ll remember this. Uh, we had like an awards evening at our [00:51:05] school for GCSE grades. And, you know, I’d always was used to getting, like, top grades, but loads [00:51:10] of people beat me in GCSEs. I didn’t get, didn’t get a shout out on, like, oh, you did really well on [00:51:15] this. And there were people that like candidly [00:51:20] that I thought, like, this might this might sound like egotistical, but I thought, like, [00:51:25] I’m smarter than that person on on stage or whatever, but I, I didn’t. [00:51:30] They’ve trounced me in this arena. And I think [00:51:35] the penny dropped that I couldn’t just coast anymore. It was like if I, [00:51:40] if I continue with what I’m doing, I’m just going to get left behind. And no amount of sort of like [00:51:45] natural.

Payman Langroudi: Being smart will only take you so far.

Daniel Jones: 100%.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right. You’re right. [00:51:50]

Daniel Jones: 100%. So that’s when the penny dropped for me. And then I kicked my ass into gear and, uh, [00:51:55] studied a lot. Um, and yeah, got, you know, the rest is [00:52:00] history sort of thing, but but pre that I just, I don’t think I took it.

Payman Langroudi: Like arriving at Cambridge when everyone’s a [00:52:05] super brain and everyone studies hard. Is it humbling.

Daniel Jones: Yeah, I think so. Must [00:52:10] be I think one of the, one of the actually one of the interesting things with Cambridge is that a lot of people [00:52:15] have a bit of a crisis when they get there, because you’re often the smartest. Not necessarily. This is not [00:52:20] the case with me, because there are smarter people, certainly smarter people than me in [00:52:25] my school that also went to Oxbridge. Um, but there’s [00:52:30] a lot of people there that, you know, they were the smartest person. They knew they were there. Yeah, [00:52:35] at their school, they were the smartest person. And a lot of their, like, self-worth and identity would have been built, built around [00:52:40] like, you know, oh, that guy is the smartest guy in school. Yeah. And you get there, [00:52:45] and now suddenly you’re sort of like, middle of the pack, this sort of bunch of incredibly academically [00:52:50] gifted people. I think a lot of people struggle with that.

Payman Langroudi: Um, is there quite a lot of pressure? Yeah, [00:52:55] must be right. Yeah. So it’s not those sort of uni days of like, [00:53:00] not doing much and partying loads. And I guess there is party, but but [00:53:05] there must be a lot of pressure. Like it must be very competitive, like amongst those smart kids.

Daniel Jones: Yeah [00:53:10] for.

Payman Langroudi: Sure. You definitely can’t be like sitting around, can you, if your class is full of [00:53:15] these kids.

Daniel Jones: Yeah, definitely. It’s 100% less fun than other universities. I made [00:53:20] sure to visit friends from school that were in other universities because I had a lot more [00:53:25] fun there. Um, it’s just a lot more studious, I think. Um, the interesting thing [00:53:30] as well, the terms are really short. So it’s like eight week terms and you do probably more like they pack a [00:53:35] lot in.

Payman Langroudi: A lot of homework and stuff during those eight weeks.

Daniel Jones: Yeah, exactly. So there’s not a lot of time to sort [00:53:40] of breathe when you get there. I mean, it was a great experience. I don’t regret doing it, but it is it’s [00:53:45] it was hard work. Yeah. For sure.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s go through Medfin then when you had the idea, [00:53:50] you had your, your Start-Up partner, your sort of your co-founder. Tell [00:53:55] me about raising cash. Did you put any of your own money in to start with? Like, what were their friends and [00:54:00] family? Was a seed stage or.

Daniel Jones: No, no. So I mean the, the we just [00:54:05] went straight to raising from.

Payman Langroudi: So what’s the process. What’s the process. How many people did you pitch in front of [00:54:10] before you got your investment?

Daniel Jones: So the way that we ran the process, so I’d [00:54:15] already I’d already quit my job at this point. So Matt and I would quit our jobs. Um, [00:54:20] looking back, it was like slightly irresponsible, to be honest, because we didn’t have we didn’t. We had a [00:54:25] vague sense of what we wanted to do, you know, around sort of like healthcare and, you know, data. [00:54:30] But I mean, it’s still vague. Um, but [00:54:35] we’re like, you know what? Like, we’re just gonna have to quit our jobs to get enough time to work on this because we’re both working full time and quite [00:54:40] demanding roles. It was like, we don’t have enough time to think about this, really. So we quit. Um, [00:54:45] and that’s part about the co-founders, like, you know, find someone that you can do that with, you trust, [00:54:50] go on that journey with. We did a sort of few months of research, you know, like just [00:54:55] calling people basically times I felt a bit like a therapist, like, tell me [00:55:00] about your problems. Because ultimately, as an entrepreneur, you know, you build a business around solving someone’s problem like that. [00:55:05] You charge money to solve someone’s problem. And if you can’t solve their problem, they’re not going to pay you any money. So [00:55:10] we spoke to lots of people in sort of different verticals about their problems. And when [00:55:15] we thought it was time to raise, you know, I was living in London. My. [00:55:20] My parents live in London. I was still having to pay rent and living expenses, [00:55:25] so my savings were going. Going down. Um, so, [00:55:30] like, we should we should raise from from VCs. I think we’re on to something here. There’s [00:55:35] a big opportunity. So basically, we we made, uh, like a spreadsheet [00:55:40] of all the funds that we knew that we would [00:55:45] fall into their remit, sort of like early invest at the very earliest stages. You know, we didn’t [00:55:50] we we didn’t really have a product or any revenue. We had no revenue at that point. [00:55:55] So really funding the founders and the idea, um, and.

Payman Langroudi: You knew from your previous [00:56:00] Start-Up which found which VCs they were. Yeah. Was that easy information [00:56:05] to get?

Daniel Jones: You could get you can certainly get that information. It wasn’t all just like in my head. Like you look [00:56:10] up sort of like pre-seed stage investors investing in London healthcare. [00:56:15] And you can build this list of people And one of the things about this sort of venture capital industry [00:56:20] is that. I mean, in many ways it’s similar to to Dental, as it can be quite a closed world. And [00:56:25] everyone knows each other. And often if you can’t get a warm introduction to a fund. [00:56:30] They they won’t take you seriously. So you need someone to basically introduce you. [00:56:35] So we had this list. These are the people we could get the money from. You then create a [00:56:40] column next to it saying like, who are the people that we know at that fund if we do? And obviously we don’t know people [00:56:45] at every single fund in London. So you make another column saying, who are the people that might know someone at [00:56:50] that? And, you know, tools like LinkedIn, you can see who’s connected to who. You can reach out saying, hey, you know, people there, would [00:56:55] you be willing to do an introduction? But the really important thing is with fundraising is [00:57:00] that you have to time bound it. So if you think about any sort of deal, when you when you move quickly [00:57:05] on something, there has to be this sense that stuff. If you don’t move.

Payman Langroudi: Urgency really.

Daniel Jones: Has to [00:57:10] be urgency. Um, so a lot of the work involved in fundraising is in the prep. [00:57:15] So you do this prep, you map out how you get introductions. You put together a pitch deck [00:57:20] like a data room. So we’ve created a data room on an app called notion, which lays [00:57:25] out all our visions. Maybe some of the research videos and stuff that we did [00:57:30] when we sat down and interviewed and recorded what what people were saying. Um, so [00:57:35] we put all that together, and then one day you’ve got everyone’s contact details, you line everyone up, maybe you’re speaking [00:57:40] to a few preferred funds before that as sort of warm up. And then one day it’s like you send out an email to everyone [00:57:45] saying, we’re fundraising. This is this is how much we’re raising. It’s for this. Here’s [00:57:50] a link to my calendar if you want to chat, let’s chat.

Payman Langroudi: How many people did [00:57:55] you send that to?

Daniel Jones: 100 and 105, 110.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:58:00] many replied?

Daniel Jones: It’s fundraising is a numbers game like you can be the most well [00:58:05] connected, intelligent, amazing founder and 90% [00:58:10] VCs will say no. Like I would say, the interesting thing is, is that as [00:58:15] soon as one says yes, often the others pile in. It’s like everything in life, right? People [00:58:20] want to be involved in what other people find interesting or valuable. [00:58:25] So really, the slog in a fundraise process is you want [00:58:30] to get to the first offer on the table for something called a term sheet as quickly as possible. [00:58:35] And once you’ve got that, the rest sort of typically falls into place. But getting to that first [00:58:40] one is really is quite difficult. So I mean, I would sit on calls from [00:58:45] 830 till six just back to back to back pitching [00:58:50] medicine. Um, you move people through a process, you define a process like [00:58:55] this is what we’re going to do, you know, here’s the resources. And then you run people through, [00:59:00] um, and you try and get people over the line. We, we got to got over the line in [00:59:05] about three and a half weeks from start. But it was intense. It was like the only thing that we were doing. [00:59:10] So it’s like.

Payman Langroudi: Not all I do.

Payman Langroudi: All day, every day. You were just zoom calling with, [00:59:15] like a half an hour. Yeah, that’s what it was.

Daniel Jones: Pretty much. And they’ll come back [00:59:20] with questions. I want to hop on more zoom calls. You need to write answers, questions that you send over email. So it’s it’s [00:59:25] better to be in my in my experience at least. And people will have different, different takes on this. But to do [00:59:30] it in a really intense way, I was lucky because at the Start-Up I joined Post Banking. We [00:59:35] raised a huge seed round like $12.5 million for seed round, [00:59:40] and I had there was a one of the founders there, this guy called Xavier. Um, [00:59:45] was he was like a great mentor to me and he brought me along. [00:59:50] I was involved.

Payman Langroudi: In that process.

Daniel Jones: In the whole I was in every single meeting. And so I’d [00:59:55] sort of seen it done before, which is super helpful.

Payman Langroudi: Makes a big difference.

Daniel Jones: Huge difference. [01:00:00] I’m very grateful to have had that opportunity because it yeah, it would have been just I [01:00:05] guess when something’s novel and new, it’s just a bit more difficult.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s fill it out. They give [01:00:10] you there’s £1.5 million land in your account.

Daniel Jones: Yeah. After after about a couple of months of, [01:00:15] um, so you get the term sheet and stuff, which technically not legally binding, but people don’t, you [01:00:20] know, it would ruin someone’s reputation to go back on it. And then you have the lawyers drafting up all legal [01:00:25] docs, etc. that takes a couple of months and then the money will drop in.

Payman Langroudi: And they’re things to [01:00:30] look out for in that legal bit. I mean, do they sometimes try and screw you over and.

Daniel Jones: Yeah. [01:00:35] Well.

Payman Langroudi: What are the sort of the common pitfalls. [01:00:40]

Daniel Jones: Yeah, I would say, um, the thing is with, with [01:00:45] them putting money into the companies because they’re buying, they’re taking a stake in your company, there’s [01:00:50] very little that they can they there’s very little they can do unless you actually break the law or you go out and buy [01:00:55] Rolexes or something with, with the, with the proceeds.

Payman Langroudi: And for them, just from their perspective, [01:01:00] typically, let’s imagine in two years time you need to raise again. Do [01:01:05] they get out at that point. And just is that how it works?

Daniel Jones: They typically ride it up. So if we raise more, they’ll put more money in. [01:01:10]

Payman Langroudi: They’ll put more.

Daniel Jones: Yeah. Um, so.

Payman Langroudi: Until the point where they do get out, wherever that is, at whatever.

Daniel Jones: Point [01:01:15] acquisition or, you know, if you’re going really big IPO or something. But you know, [01:01:20] a lot of I’m under. No. Um, yeah. A lot of, a lot of these venture capital backed companies, [01:01:25] uh, VC investors know that they’re investing in something that’s like [01:01:30] there’s a high failure rate and they invest in things because, you know, one out of [01:01:35] every 50 companies.

Payman Langroudi: They’ve got to deploy their cash and find that unicorn. Right. [01:01:40] Yeah. Yeah. And how much do they interfere?

Daniel Jones: Um, it [01:01:45] depends on the investor, but I think the best investors that [01:01:50] I know of are pretty hands off, and they’re there when you need them. So, I [01:01:55] mean, we, we, we send like, monthly updates and stuff on how we’re doing.

Payman Langroudi: And do they not [01:02:00] turn up to a sort of a board meeting once a month or something?

Daniel Jones: Um, when you grow a bit bigger, they will, [01:02:05] uh, at our stage, it’s sort of seen as overkill.

Payman Langroudi: Did that did that play a.

Payman Langroudi: Part in you deciding [01:02:10] who to go with from the investment perspective that some of these guys have a good reputation [01:02:15] for not getting involved.

Daniel Jones: 100% like you should.

Payman Langroudi: You even pick them based on. [01:02:20]

Daniel Jones: Before if you know if they’re any sort of aspiring entrepreneurs listening to this, before you [01:02:25] take on any investor, whether it’s a fund or, you know, private investors always try [01:02:30] and do reference calls on your investor. You know, they do their research on you very thorough, as [01:02:35] they should. Um, but ultimately it’s a multi-year relationship. And you want [01:02:40] to have a good relationship with your investors. You want to know.

Payman Langroudi: Your due diligence side on them. Right.

Daniel Jones: Definitely. [01:02:45]

Payman Langroudi: Interesting.

Daniel Jones: Yeah, definitely. Um, it’s so important, I think.

Payman Langroudi: And then give me an example. [01:02:50]

Payman Langroudi: Of where they have been able to help you because of everything [01:02:55] they’ve done in the past. Have they introduced you to people, to ideas, [01:03:00] you know, have they helped?

Daniel Jones: Yeah. Um, they have helped, I [01:03:05] would say. Um, it’s not like they click their fingers and like, loads of stuff [01:03:10] sort of drops in your lap, unfortunately. Yeah. Um, but yeah, they can help with introductions. [01:03:15] Um, two people. So, um, you [01:03:20] know, if there are people, other people in the industry that they know they can introduce you to help with [01:03:25] hiring. So it’s like a big thing for any technology company is hiring the best software engineers. [01:03:30] Um, and, you know, they’ll help amplify any job postings. They may know, people that you should go [01:03:35] and speak to about that sort of thing. So there’s a sort of they have a network that can often help, [01:03:40] um, when it comes to.

Payman Langroudi: Do they introduce you to customers as well? Like is [01:03:45] there like a someone funding my dentist and your VC knows who that [01:03:50] is? And is that, is that a thing?

Daniel Jones: They might be able to introduce us to customers if we weren’t building in the dental [01:03:55] space. Um, so let’s say our customers were [01:04:00] tech companies for sure. They’d be able to introduce us. Um, it’s not Dental specific. [01:04:05] It’s more just sort of like non non-tech because these guys, all the networks in tech. So.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I get [01:04:10] it, I get it. All right. So then tell me about the process of developing software. Do you do that sort of classical [01:04:15] sprint thing.

Daniel Jones: Yeah we do that sort of thing. Um internally [01:04:20] initially like the, the secret sauce is you just have to speak to the people [01:04:25] that use it as often as possible, um, to try and understand what they, what what [01:04:30] they want, what they want to see some. They’re not going to be able to tell you, I want this feature and it should look like this. But [01:04:35] I think a really important part of building a product that is impactful is being able to listen [01:04:40] to the people you’re serving like, listen, empathise, understand what they want [01:04:45] and then build it. Um, so there’s this the sort of discovery element [01:04:50] is really all about speaking to people and asking the right questions. There’s a great book on this called [01:04:55] The Mom Test. The What the Mom like Mom Test American. Um, the [01:05:00] Mumtaz will say British podcast and all that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Daniel Jones: Um.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:05:05] about how to keep in touch with with the market.

Daniel Jones: Was it to ask questions? [01:05:10] Um, two people in a way that helps surface what [01:05:15] they really think. Because often and, you know, I’m, I am as guilty of this as [01:05:20] anyone, especially British people. Like, we’re all guilty of this and that. You know, we try and we [01:05:25] don’t like something or we think something is bad. You don’t necessarily say, oh, I think that’s terrible. [01:05:30] You put a nice spin on it because you don’t want to hurt people’s feelings. But ultimately [01:05:35] when you’re building a product, you really want to you want to get to the nub of what is great and what is really bad. Yeah. [01:05:40] Um, and so it’s like, how can you ask your questions in a way that get past that?

Payman Langroudi: That’s interesting. [01:05:45]

Daniel Jones: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what other books do you reckon are essential reading for entrepreneurs? [01:05:50] Lean. Lean Start-Up.

Daniel Jones: That’s a great one. Yeah. You read that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:05:55] Although it got lost in the software piece, man. I didn’t finish it. Um, [01:06:00] I think back then I wasn’t so focussed like years ago. What [01:06:05] else? Any other books come to mind?

Daniel Jones: Uh, 0 to 1 by Peter Thiel’s good book. Like, foundational. [01:06:10] Um, it’s pretty good. I, I I’m a big fan. Like, I read quite a lot. [01:06:15] I’m a big fan generally of, like, biographies and autobiographies. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So you read about other [01:06:20] founders and what they did.

Daniel Jones: Founders and just people in general. Like there have to be sort of tech tech [01:06:25] founders. But if you’re after stuff about tech founders, like the Walter Isaacson biography on Steve Jobs is really [01:06:30] good. It’s amazing. And I think one one of the things that I love about biographies is biographies [01:06:35] like that is you often have people that really like lionised this guy, [01:06:40] but but everyone is human. They have their own flaws and they do it and they, they sort of carve [01:06:45] their own path. And I think by reading stuff like that, you realise there isn’t necessarily a blueprint. Everyone is [01:06:50] imperfect. Um, and you sort of take what you want from, from their story. But [01:06:55] I love reading books like that.

Payman Langroudi: Like, how do you feel about the sacrifice of the [01:07:00] sort of founder life? I mean, you must have people from your [01:07:05] class or whatever now rising up the banking or people you knew [01:07:10] in finance. The sacrifice element that the sort of the [01:07:15] idea that you’re going to delay your happiness until until later. I [01:07:20] mean, you know, people talk about the journey and all that, enjoying the journey. And you got a nice smile [01:07:25] on your face. Looks like you’re enjoying yourself, but it’s hard sometimes. I remember as a dentist when [01:07:30] we started enlightened, I was like three years a dentist. We started enlightened and then lost money for about [01:07:35] five years. And I remember looking around at the people in my class buying their Porsches and [01:07:40] difficult time, a difficult time, not because you never knew what the final outcome of it was going [01:07:45] to be, and working your butt off and losing money is a pain. It’s a horrible, horrible, [01:07:50] horrible thing. Do you do you sometimes reflect on it or are you calm about all that? [01:07:55] Oh.

Daniel Jones: I think in the early days of journey, I [01:08:00] did reflect on that quite a bit. Um, as you say, like a lot of my, a lot of my friends are still they [01:08:05] the route that I was going to do some banking, private equity, most of my like my personal friends still [01:08:10] do that. Um, and they’re earning shitloads of cash.

Payman Langroudi: Did you sometimes think, [01:08:15] what if I do?

Daniel Jones: Sometimes I do. I’d be lying if I said I didn’t. [01:08:20] Especially when it gets hard. You know, it’s like on some days, one of the. Maybe [01:08:25] I’d be interested to hear your take on this. I think one of the things with entrepreneurship is just how [01:08:30] much of a rollercoaster it is. You know, some some days something goes amazingly and you’re sort of walking down the [01:08:35] street and you know, those movies where someone’s whistling and they’re saying hi to everyone.

Payman Langroudi: They pass. [01:08:40]

Daniel Jones: Yeah. Sometimes you can feel like that.

Payman Langroudi: The highs are high.

Daniel Jones: The highs are so high, it’s amazing. And then there are other [01:08:45] days where just you feel like you can do nothing, right? And everything’s going wrong. It’s all falling [01:08:50] apart. And, um, those are the days you think. What if?

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:08:55] I think the more you do it, the more you learn. What the. What do they call it in boxing? The roll [01:09:00] with the punches kind of thing, where the few, the first few big disasters [01:09:05] that happened to you really are shocking. And then the more you do it, you realise. All [01:09:10] right, you know, we’ll get through this as well. But the beginning is very hard. Yeah.

Daniel Jones: Yeah. [01:09:15]

Payman Langroudi: I found that comparison piece very difficult because, you know, as you know, dentists earn a lot early. [01:09:20] It’s not that they earn a lot. I mean, they earn a lot, but but they earn a lot early. Um, [01:09:25] one of the highest earning sort of 23 year olds might be a dentist, you know? [01:09:30] And so you watch your friends, and then you’re losing money. Hello. Hello. You’re [01:09:35] like, am I doing? What the hell am I doing? Yeah. Um, I had to question myself a lot back then. [01:09:40] Um, but it’s very impressive what you’ve done. What keeps you up [01:09:45] at night? I mean, what are you really worried about?

Daniel Jones: Am [01:09:50] I moving fast enough? [01:09:55] I think, you know, um, one of the things that the [01:10:00] like my, the heart surgery sort of imbued within me was this [01:10:05] sense of, you know, if you think back to when you were 20 and I had this, it’s like you basically [01:10:10] feel invincible, like you have no sense of your own mortality. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and [01:10:15] you’re just like, well, this I’m going to be healthy and my [01:10:20] life goes on forever. And you don’t you don’t ever think about that sort of thing. And I think that [01:10:25] experience sort of made me realise that life [01:10:30] is finite, and we only do get a finite amount of time. And [01:10:35] when you compare that, combine that with, with being ambitious. Um, [01:10:40] the thing that keeps me up at night is like, am I am I going quickly enough? Am I making the most of my time to get where I want [01:10:45] to go? Um, that’s the stuff that keeps me up at night staring at the ceiling.

Payman Langroudi: Anxiety. [01:10:50]

Daniel Jones: Yeah, I would say, you know, you could certainly call it that. Um, I wouldn’t say [01:10:55] I’m an anxious person, but like, you know, things that I think about at night when I stare up at my ceiling, I [01:11:00] certainly think about that for sure.

Payman Langroudi: And so what would you say you’re [01:11:05] bad at?

Daniel Jones: Um. What would I say I’m bad at? There’s [01:11:10] loads of things I’m bad at. Coding, for one. Um, I would say, um. [01:11:15] I, I went [01:11:20] on a, I went on a date the other day with this girl and this at the [01:11:25] end of the day, she goes, do you have ADHD? Which [01:11:30] is, um, an interesting thing to hear. And, and I [01:11:35] think that I can be very organised if I put my mind to it. But my, my [01:11:40] mind often goes in like 100 different directions. Um, so that’s something that like [01:11:45] staying like super organised. There’s like Matt, my co-founder is amazing [01:11:50] at this. He’s like one of the most organised people I’ve ever met.

Payman Langroudi: Um, do you need opposites in that sense, don’t [01:11:55] you? I mean, you can’t. I’m sure you can be the creative and organised, but generally [01:12:00] it goes in opposite directions.

Daniel Jones: So I think that my organisational skills [01:12:05] can sometimes leave a bit to be desired.

Payman Langroudi: What about relationships? I mean, it’s difficult having a relationship. I [01:12:10] mean, when I was married, um, and she was paying for everything, [01:12:15] she was paying the mortgage and all that while I was trying to fix this. But like [01:12:20] I say, that that obsessional thing that, you know, a Start-Up is an obsession and [01:12:25] takes up massive amounts of time. And there are moments during [01:12:30] an entrepreneurial journey that absolutely everything has to go get [01:12:35] second place to what’s going on now, like in the three weeks that you are raising cash, you [01:12:40] couldn’t go to a funeral, you can go to a birthday, you can. And [01:12:45] during product launch phases. That happens a lot as well. Have you found relationship wise it’s actually [01:12:50] affected you being in this position?

Daniel Jones: Yeah, I think so. Um, you [01:12:55] know, I think you go into to an extent with your eyes open to that sort of thing. [01:13:00] Um, but even just just from a sort of like, time perspective, like [01:13:05] I have less time to spend with, um, family, with friends. Um, so [01:13:10] it does. It does in, in in that, in that way, I’m very lucky to have people in my life that are pretty, [01:13:15] pretty understanding, um, of that and, you know, very supportive, but no [01:13:20] doubt like it’s, it’s, uh, it does become an obsession. I think the best entrepreneurs, like, are people that [01:13:25] are prone to obsession. Obsession because that’s that’s what drives sort of just. [01:13:30]

Payman Langroudi: Gets you through the difficulties. Yeah, exactly. Let’s [01:13:35] get to the darker part of the pod. I know we’ve been through some dark areas. What [01:13:40] would you say was your biggest mistake in this journey?

Daniel Jones: My biggest [01:13:45] mistake. I think [01:13:50] a big mistake of mine was trying to follow someone else’s [01:13:55] path, or what sort of society deemed an idea of success. [01:14:00] Um, you know, that’s that’s why I started.

Payman Langroudi: The finance job, you.

Daniel Jones: Mean? 100%. [01:14:05] 100%? Um.

Payman Langroudi: I think how many years did you spend in finance?

Daniel Jones: Uh, [01:14:10] just under three. Three years. I’m. It’s quite. It’s. I’m a young guy, so it’s a [01:14:15] decent.

Payman Langroudi: Portion of my life.

Daniel Jones: Um, yeah. Because I think that [01:14:20] when you’re younger, you look around and you think, you know, there are all these different paths. And which path do I go [01:14:25] on? I think it’s the wrong way of looking at it, you know? And that’s something you only get to with, um, [01:14:30] age and wisdom if you like. But I think looking back, I’d [01:14:35] have loved to have been able to sort of start on my own path even earlier, like, [01:14:40] um, I know guys that are like 19. Um, we had a guy working with us for [01:14:45] a bit who was this 19 year old, and he was I was so impressed with the way he thought [01:14:50] about life. You know, he could have gone to a really good university. I don’t want to go to university. I want to go and do this. And [01:14:55] I think it takes real courage and independent thinking to be able to step off that route, [01:15:00] that other, to just step off the beaten track, you know? Um, [01:15:05] so I wish I’d done that earlier.

Payman Langroudi: Some people have things figured out way [01:15:10] earlier than you one and then other people or other other things they [01:15:15] haven’t figured out yet. You know, that comparison is a bit of a difficulty in this situation, you know? [01:15:20] But I get you, I get you, um, going forward, if you [01:15:25] had like a five year best case scenario, like what? What are you what are you telling these [01:15:30] VCs that’s going to happen in five years time? You’re going to be the global leader in this in this area. [01:15:35]

Daniel Jones: Yeah. Um, our goal is to become the the data layer, um, [01:15:40] for dentistry. That’s that’s a goal in the UK. Then in the US and [01:15:45] we’re incredibly ambitious. Want to be international with this. So next couple of [01:15:50] years we’re super focussed on the UK. Um and then we’d like to go to the US in our office. We’ve got a [01:15:55] big split US UK flag and we had it up since day one and I put it up and I told [01:16:00] the rest of the guys on the team, I mean, I’m no like I’m not like a massive fan [01:16:05] of America in the sense of I don’t go around wearing cowboy boots sort of thing. Um, [01:16:10] but I put that on the the wall as a statement of intent when we first [01:16:15] started saying, look like we want to we want to go big [01:16:20] with this. Um, so that’s what we that’s what we tell investors. Um, and just. [01:16:25] Yeah, it’s that’s.

Payman Langroudi: That goes back to that question of am I moving fast enough to achieve that? [01:16:30] Right? Because, I mean, I’m aware of two other Start-Ups who are trying to do what you’re saying. [01:16:35] Who knows what’s happening in America. It’s a big challenge. Big, big, big challenge.

Daniel Jones: That’s [01:16:40] what makes fun.

Payman Langroudi: Of course. Of course. Anything worthwhile is a big challenge. There’s no doubt about that. [01:16:45] Let’s end it on the usual questions. Fantasy dinner party. Three [01:16:50] guests, dead or alive. Who are you having? Oh.

Daniel Jones: I don’t know. Um. Is [01:16:55] it dinner party or is it separate? Separate dinners?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:17:00] They don’t have to. They don’t have to talk to each other. Yeah, so.

Daniel Jones: I would [01:17:05] the first person I’d like to have dinner with and sadly passed away now is my grandma. [01:17:10] So my grandmother was like, you know, sometimes maybe [01:17:15] you’ve had this. I hadn’t realised how much of an impact and positive impact she’d had on my life, [01:17:20] and she passed away when I was like 16. I think at that age. You’re too young. [01:17:25]

Payman Langroudi: Self-centred?

Daniel Jones: Yeah, you’re too young to understand. And I think that, you know, she was she was such [01:17:30] an amazing person. And she was.

Payman Langroudi: My mum’s mum.

Daniel Jones: Yeah. My mum’s [01:17:35] mum and she I mean she could be quite strict. And so there were times in my sort [01:17:40] of like early teens where we’d, there’d be a bit of friction.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Daniel Jones: Um, but [01:17:45] you know, with, with the fullness of time you realise how important [01:17:50] that is. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I’d like to see her again and talk to her again and [01:17:55] say thank you and sorry for being, you know, a little shit. Um, [01:18:00] and. Yeah, I’d like to do that. I wouldn’t have her at the dinner party [01:18:05] with the other two guests I’m about to mention. So I’d like to have that separate, if that’s all right. And [01:18:10] then. So, uh, there’s a guy called. Are you familiar with a guy called Naval Ravikant? [01:18:15] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I love the I love the way that he’s able to simplify, [01:18:20] like, very complex topics. And he just seems to have such clarity of [01:18:25] thought. I’d love to sit down with him and, like, talk to him. I think he’s he’s like a modern [01:18:30] day, so.

Payman Langroudi: Easy to listen to. But but such a big subject. He tackles.

Daniel Jones: 100%. [01:18:35] So interesting when you look at people and you’re like, you got it figured out. Like you’re sort of you’ve thought through stuff pretty [01:18:40] deeply. You’ve got to figure it out. He’s he’s that person. I really enjoy, um, sort [01:18:45] of his musings and content.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t think your grandma would like him?

Daniel Jones: Well, it’s the [01:18:50] more the third person. So the other, like the historical figure that I’m probably like [01:18:55] most interested in is Napoleon. Um, so I’ve, I’ve, I’ve read, read [01:19:00] a few books, like biographies and even like some of his writings because a lot of his diaries still exist. The [01:19:05] reason I think Napoleon and Naval Ravikant would be an interesting pairing is that naval is like, he’s like super [01:19:10] chill. He’s like action and sort of, um, doesn’t necessarily equate with impact. And [01:19:15] you can be of calm mind and still be really ambitious. And then you take Napoleon, who’s [01:19:20] like basically the opposite. He’s just like action, action, action. And he’s a very complex figure in [01:19:25] many ways. You know, like to some people he would be this sort of bloodthirsty tyrant, and [01:19:30] others, he’s this sort of like, amazing Statesman, and he [01:19:35] introduced, like so many interesting things within France around civil administration [01:19:40] laws post the French Revolution, which I just it’s such a fascinating [01:19:45] figure also that he rose from relatively relative obscurity in a, in an age [01:19:50] where there was no social mobility. So he came from like the back end of he was from Corsica, which [01:19:55] was like a backwater, to be like the emperor of France when he was 28. Um, so [01:20:00] but I think it would be interesting to see them interact, and I’d just. Yeah, I’d like to go [01:20:05] to a dinner party with him because he’s another person who’s just so complex. And I find complex people [01:20:10] really interesting, like people that you can’t sort of say they’re that [01:20:15] sort of person.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know this notion of foxes and hedgehogs?

Daniel Jones: No. What [01:20:20] is that?

Payman Langroudi: One of them is is very basic and has basic rules to [01:20:25] life. And the other one is almost like an overthinker and very complex. And [01:20:30] it turns out the basic ones are much more successful than the complex, simple, simple [01:20:35] rules they apply to life. How come there’s no hint of any sort of Manchester accent? [01:20:40]

Daniel Jones: Yeah, if I had a pound for every time someone was a little pocket.

Payman Langroudi: Of Cheshire [01:20:45] where everyone speaks like you.

Daniel Jones: Well, so none of my family are from from up north. Um, none [01:20:50] of my family are from up north. And I think, well, actually, partially, it’s because my grandma, she didn’t want me speaking [01:20:55] with a northern accent. Okay. Sorry to any northerners listening. Um, wasn’t my choice, but. Yeah, uh, [01:21:00] I think that’s why. I think that’s why. And then I’ve been down south for, I don’t know. [01:21:05]

Payman Langroudi: So you never had northern accent?

Daniel Jones: No. Not really. There’s videos of me from school, and it sounded [01:21:10] pretty pretty much the same.

Payman Langroudi: Is there a Welsh connection?

Daniel Jones: There is. Yeah. My mum’s side. [01:21:15] Jones is actually. Wyn Jones is my middle name. So. Super Welsh. [01:21:20] Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent. So who do you support if England play Wales.

Daniel Jones: In the rugby? [01:21:25] Yes, I actually support Wales because.

Payman Langroudi: I’m so happy you said that.

Daniel Jones: My, my granddad my [01:21:30] grandad’s a big Wales fan. Um, football? I mean, yeah, [01:21:35] England. Yeah. For sure.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. I really enjoyed it, man. I really enjoyed it. And good luck and [01:21:40] maybe we’ll get you back in a couple of years and see where it’s gone.

Daniel Jones: Yeah, that’d be awesome. Thanks for having.

Payman Langroudi: Me. Amazing, [01:21:45] man.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [01:21:50] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:21:55] Your hosts Payman Langroudi [01:22:00] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this [01:22:05] far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for [01:22:10] actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because [01:22:15] I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [01:22:20] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of [01:22:25] it too. Thank you so so so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

[VOICE: This [00:00:05] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get to go [00:00:10] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:15] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:00:20]

Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis [00:00:25] of that is to really believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened [00:00:30] online training on enlightened online training to understand how to assess a case [00:00:35] quickly, how to deliver brilliant results every time. Next time. Whitening underwhelms. Try [00:00:40] and lighten. Now let’s get to the pod. It gives me great pleasure to welcome Amber Aplin onto the [00:00:45] podcast. Amber has a practice in the Scottish Borders, a [00:00:50] biomimetic practice very much including therapists and [00:00:55] teachers on all that. And I definitely want to talk about that. Um, a career that started [00:01:00] out in the military, right? Is that right?

Amber Aplin: Yeah. Military? Yeah. Straight from [00:01:05] uni to the military. So. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Why did you join the military?

Amber Aplin: My [00:01:10] father was actually in the army as well. My father. So he kind of said, oh, I [00:01:15] saw the benefits of it through him.

Payman Langroudi: So as a.

Amber Aplin: Dentist. Yeah. As a.

Payman Langroudi: Dentist. Dad. [00:01:20] Yeah. As a dentist in the military.

Amber Aplin: I saw firsthand the benefits the travel through throughout the world and [00:01:25] everything. So I thought it would be great, you know, for even for a six years, it’s a great just start to [00:01:30] life and for experience. So I just went straight into it from actually third year of university, [00:01:35] joined cadetship for my last two years and got some [00:01:40] pay and some books, you know, and yeah.

Payman Langroudi: University was Newcastle.

Amber Aplin: Newcastle. [00:01:45]

Payman Langroudi: Huh. Yeah. And so let’s get into the military thing because I’m not really clear on it. [00:01:50] So what happens? What is there a deal where they say, we’ll pay you this much if you stay that [00:01:55] long?

Amber Aplin: The first. Yeah, the first step is about six years minimum, uh, [00:02:00] service. So they train you up, you go to Sandhurst. Um, I [00:02:05] think normal military would be a whole year at Sandhurst for officer training. [00:02:10] Um, and we go straight in as an officer from dental school because we’re qualified [00:02:15] with a postgrad. Yeah, um, but our Sandhurst is about five weeks worth [00:02:20] of the full year. Um, and it’s it’s pretty intensive, and it’s I [00:02:25] loved it, I loved it, it was. You’re marching around, you learn weapon craft [00:02:30] skills for shooting, um, your.

Payman Langroudi: Basic military training.

Amber Aplin: Basic training? [00:02:35] Up at the crack of dawn. You’re picking litter. Um, you’re out running at [00:02:40] six, seven in the morning, so carrying weight, going on, [00:02:45] um, mini kind of beds and stuff 3 or 4 nights away, um, all [00:02:50] really, really great fun. But they push you. They push you to you kind of near limits. [00:02:55] I think physically they try and break you a little bit.

Payman Langroudi: To then rebuild you at the point.

Amber Aplin: Um, I [00:03:00] think it’s a taster of, um, probably the full course and it’s kind of called Vicars and Tarts course, [00:03:05] I think. But actually, it’s pretty tough. You know, I was quite glad and quite proud to get through it. [00:03:10] Um, and then you go into other training at Keogh for dentist specific training, um, [00:03:15] learning about the military way of record keeping and just, you know, [00:03:20] other things like that and more kind of, um, staying away doing it’s [00:03:25] even doing lots of training in as if you’re in doing operational dentistry [00:03:30] and working with medics. So field kind of not surgeries but [00:03:35] you know, first aid and things and CPR and things. So that was a great [00:03:40] experience. You make great friends for life you know.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So now you’re now you’ve kind of got the basic training [00:03:45] of both military and dental. Yeah. Then what you just in a dental surgery, like most [00:03:50] dentists, five days a week.

Amber Aplin: I was shipped out straight away to Germany. And, you [00:03:55] know, I remember arriving in my first camp, it was it was called Fallingbostel. And [00:04:00] it was near, um, near Paderborn, I think Paderborn. And, um, I arrived there about 11 [00:04:05] p.m. at night and no one was around. I thought no one was there to greet you. This is the first step [00:04:10] of the real life, you know, and as I kind of just newly fresh faced grad, um, [00:04:15] and then just had to find accommodation somewhere and just. But anyway, the job [00:04:20] itself is, is 9 to 5. Um, but you can [00:04:25] be called to go anywhere at any time. So you’ve got to be prepared to just go with [00:04:30] it really and not really question it.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s imagine there’s no, you know, security situation, [00:04:35] your day to day, 9 to 5 appointments as you would in a what NHS [00:04:40] type situation is that what it is or do you get longer.

Amber Aplin: You get as long as you need. We’re in year [00:04:45] I did over in Germany. Um, and then all the, all the kind [00:04:50] of new grads from that intake all met together kind of once every, I think every two [00:04:55] weeks for a day away somewhere social. It was very, very social. Very, very good fun and [00:05:00] training as well into that mix as well, of course. Um, but the day [00:05:05] to day work was kind of compared to now. It was very basic. I think our main aim is to get soldiers [00:05:10] fit for deployment. So lots of amalgams, extractions and not [00:05:15] much else. Not much else.

Payman Langroudi: So if a soldier wanted teeth whitening, he couldn’t come in and [00:05:20] say gimme teeth whitening. That wasn’t available.

Amber Aplin: Anywhere. I mean, this is a long time ago now.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Amber Aplin: I [00:05:25] mean, I qualified in 1980 something.

Payman Langroudi: I want, like, ortho. You couldn’t come in and say [00:05:30] I want.

Amber Aplin: There was ortho. Oh, there was actually more for kids in the in the forces and all. So I don’t [00:05:35] think soldiers got ortho. No. No ortho, no cosmetic stuff. Um, did anterior composites. But these [00:05:40] are young soldiers. Normally.

Payman Langroudi: So not.

Amber Aplin: That much. So not much. Not much kind of cosmetic [00:05:45] stuff. Mostly fit, healthy young men. And few, obviously women as [00:05:50] well. Over there. And and kids over in Germany as well.

Payman Langroudi: And then how [00:05:55] does the pay work. You salaried.

Amber Aplin: Salaried. Yeah. Great salary straight away. Um, yeah. [00:06:00] Other benefits. Lots of travel, you know, and, um, they encourage [00:06:05] training over there. So in the forces. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: Cpd training.

Amber Aplin: Loads [00:06:10] of CPD, they encourage you to do postgrads and study and yeah, you have meet [00:06:15] together to do training days and present cases. And I did my exams through [00:06:20] the military, you know, the mjdf and I think that was about it. But [00:06:25] other other kind of training courses within the Army as well.

Payman Langroudi: So then [00:06:30] how many years do you stay in each place? So you were in Germany for say five years?

Amber Aplin: Germany? I was [00:06:35] each postings typically 2 to 3 years. Well, VTI is one year and then we move after the VTI year [00:06:40] somewhere else. Yeah. So I was in Germany for most of my career actually, because I really enjoyed it over there.

Payman Langroudi: Did [00:06:45] you learn German?

Amber Aplin: Yeah, a little bit German. Yep. Learn enough to get by? Certainly. Order food and stuff. [00:06:50] Um, I couldn’t quite hold a conversation, but I did [00:06:55] enjoy it.

Payman Langroudi: So how about during those, say, 15 years you [00:07:00] were doing that? Yeah. Was there a situation where suddenly war broke out and suddenly you [00:07:05] were taken to Iraq or something or whatever?

Amber Aplin: Yeah. I mean, we did it [00:07:10] all the time. I actually missed out on an up to, I think it was to Bosnia at the time because [00:07:15] I had a skiing injury. Um, so I had an ACL rupture, so I wasn’t able to go. And fortunately, [00:07:20] um, I did go over to I was in Northern Ireland for three [00:07:25] years. That’s kind of a bit like a deployment. It’s a little bit, um, high risk at times. [00:07:30] Some interesting situations in Northern Ireland you could find yourself in if you’re not careful. Yeah. [00:07:35] Looking under your car for bombs and things and, um, certain areas that you [00:07:40] couldn’t go to. Um, but I was quite relaxed about it. You got to live your life [00:07:45] as well. And as long as you’re sensible.

Payman Langroudi: I guess the training must address that. Sort [00:07:50] of.

Amber Aplin: It does. And I think it expects you to have a certain bit of common sense as well, you know, which I didn’t always [00:07:55] have, to be honest. So I used to compete horses and stuff. And I had, um, I [00:08:00] remember times of taking my horse in a horse box around looking for [00:08:05] a venue somewhere near the border, and ended up finding [00:08:10] this funeral procession. Um, and it wasn’t nice [00:08:15] situation to be in, and very quickly saw the the holes lining up and and [00:08:20] you trying to get out and they’re starting to wonder, you know, what you’re doing. And they obviously knew that you weren’t supposed [00:08:25] to be there and things. And so just quickly had to try and do a U-turn and get out of there quick, smart [00:08:30] and just little bits like that I’d be really careful with. And I wasn’t the most sensible, to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Amber Aplin: But [00:08:35] I still believe you’ve got to live life and make [00:08:40] the most of it and not not be scared to do things.

Payman Langroudi: So when [00:08:45] you look back on on those years, what’s the emotion that goes [00:08:50] through you? Is it is it okay? You had a lot of fun. You met a lot of people career wise. [00:08:55] Do you feel like you sort of stood still? Yeah. Dentally in that period.

Amber Aplin: I [00:09:00] kind of wish I, I mean, I loved it so much and I was ready to go when I went because I had a young family at the time. [00:09:05] So I’d, I think my three children just before I left the forces. Um, [00:09:10] and then just before you leave, you think, Crikey, I’ve been doing amalgams and extractions all my all my career, [00:09:15] and suddenly you’ve got to suddenly upskill hugely before you go [00:09:20] ready. Faced with looking for employment outside? Um, so [00:09:25] that was a time I really started to study and find training, and I [00:09:30] never stopped, really. But you’re right. I think had I left sooner and set up my own practice sooner, I’d [00:09:35] probably been slightly better off. I’m late to the game, basically with ownership, I would [00:09:40] say. Yeah, for sure.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, I mean, life [00:09:45] takes you where it takes you, right? That’s that’s that’s that’s an interesting whole question itself. [00:09:50] I do want to ask one other question about soldiers, because I wasn’t [00:09:55] really aware of this, that almost every single soldier who sees battle, [00:10:00] sees action, ends up with some form of PTSD. Is that [00:10:05] correct? Because I thought it was a tiny minority. But the soldiers I’ve [00:10:10] spoken to, they say themselves and everyone they know suffers [00:10:15] from some form of PTSD.

Amber Aplin: I would imagine so. I mean, I was very lucky not to witness anything [00:10:20] like that at all yourself. I’ve got I’ve got friends who have lost very close friends. [00:10:25] And, you know, I think that was certainly true. I would say I [00:10:30] was very lucky to come away without any of that kind of exposure, I would say. Um, I [00:10:35] mean, a great time. Loved it. Uh. Hard work. I think I actually learned a lot of resilience from the forces, [00:10:40] because you get told. Drop of a hat to go. I mean, I came back from having my third child, [00:10:45] and I was still actually feeding her at the time and straight back into work, and I was sent within a few days [00:10:50] over to Northern Ireland for just a two week, um, two week kind of visit [00:10:55] to this practice to cover some someone’s annual leave. And, um, you know, [00:11:00] I hadn’t been trained on the new system there for software, for note taking. So you just suddenly taken [00:11:05] away from all suddenly being off leave for six months, you know, and and then, [00:11:10] um, yeah, just without the proper training. It wasn’t always well thought out, actually, sometimes. [00:11:15] And, um, you just got to get on with it. It’s got to go find find the best way to get through it. And, [00:11:20] um. Yeah, I think it builds a lot of resilience. You can’t question it. You’ve just got to do what you’re told [00:11:25] to do, um, and make the best of it.

Payman Langroudi: But what I’m kind of getting at is, is a soldier [00:11:30] patient different? Sometimes? Yes. Because of these call it let’s call it mental [00:11:35] health struggles. Yeah. Do you have to did you come across [00:11:40] that situation from your patients. You know, there were people who’d been through something, and then.

Amber Aplin: I [00:11:45] was based mostly, I suppose, in recruit training places, I suppose, rather [00:11:50] than places where people came back from. Um, yeah. It depends where you’re based, I suppose. [00:11:55] And I wasn’t really based with anywhere, um, who were in the kind of fighting regiments as [00:12:00] far as I know. Um, so however [00:12:05] soldiers that we treat, the main difference is there’s no consent because [00:12:10] they don’t question it.

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Amber Aplin: You just say this is what we need to do to get your tooth [00:12:15] fit or stable. And they say, fine, you know, and and, um, it’s like [00:12:20] you need to know what I’m doing here. Is that okay? And, you know, and they don’t seem to, um, there was [00:12:25] no way they would. And again, they’re soldiers and were majors or captains. And in [00:12:30] the military, you’re not trained to question authority for even a second. So there was no consent [00:12:35] in my mind. And it was very tricky to.

Payman Langroudi: So when you came back into civilian land, [00:12:40] did you find that challenging because you had to overexplain things to people?

Amber Aplin: The biggest [00:12:45] challenge for me straight away was, um, making sure that I knew my worth, [00:12:50] because in the military, there’s no they don’t pay for the treatments over there in the transactions. There’s no transactions [00:12:55] at all for what you do. So everything is free at the point of, um, service. [00:13:00] Yeah. So, yeah. And I was straight into a job which [00:13:05] was NHS mixed private. I was there for like one year. And these patients that came [00:13:10] in that were fully private, I was like, I’m not good enough to treat these guys. You know, I’ve got just I didn’t feel like [00:13:15] I was worthy of looking after these people and I’d have to upskill so much. And [00:13:20] I felt I wanted to give them a fantastic service to make them feel they had value [00:13:25] for money. You know, it’s only I mean, this is going back, I think, you [00:13:30] know, 20 years now, um, 18, 20 years and and [00:13:35] maybe a private new patient would be about £80 at the time. And I was like, crikey! [00:13:40] You know, I’ve got to make this really, really great. Just so they know. They’ve had great value, great service. So that [00:13:45] was my mindset straight off the bat.

Payman Langroudi: I think people who come straight out of university into into private sort of situations [00:13:50] or near university, they have that same struggle and they probably am I worthy? [00:13:55]

Amber Aplin: Yeah, I would guess so. Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So how you got over that [00:14:00] in the end, right. Pardon? You got over that.

Amber Aplin: It took a while to upskill and train [00:14:05] and train and train till I felt like I was good enough. Good. And and very [00:14:10] good. And so I knew my skills were competent and great. It took a long time, actually, to be [00:14:15] fair.

Payman Langroudi: So what led you down this biomimetic route? I mean, upskilling could [00:14:20] have meant anything, couldn’t it? Yeah. You could have gone to Khoisan spear and.

Amber Aplin: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Been [00:14:25] prepping.

Amber Aplin: That’s true.

Payman Langroudi: Prep happy, I guess. You know, people call that, um. [00:14:30] Or you could have gone. You could have become an a line bleach blonde person or. Yeah, all sorts [00:14:35] of different directions. You could have gone. Yeah. What was. What was the influence that led you down this biomimetic route? [00:14:40]

Amber Aplin: I did lots of training, actually. So I have done the Tipton Restorative Long course. [00:14:45] Um, I’ve done Linda Greenwald tooth whitening. Um, I stayed away [00:14:50] from ortho, actually, to be honest, I didn’t fancy ortho or cosmetic anyway. Um, [00:14:55] yeah, I’ve done loads of training. Every. I’d always train all the time. Even did [00:15:00] a postgraduate Edinburgh um, diploma in private primary [00:15:05] dental care at the time. And that was a two year diploma. Um, I just fell upon [00:15:10] the course actually. The aliments. Who are these two Americans, father and son, who are the founders of it, really? [00:15:15] They came across to Scotland, to Glasgow for a two day course, and my work colleague [00:15:20] and friend Kira went to the course first. We’re doing two back to back courses. And Amber, you’ve [00:15:25] just got to go on this. It’s mind blowing. I said, okay, yeah, I was going to go anyway, but I wasn’t [00:15:30] really convinced because I thought I knew a lot. I thought I was great. And, [00:15:35] um, we just don’t know what you don’t know, you know? And this is me being very experienced and [00:15:40] working in private practice for about ten, 12 years, and, um, went in this two day course and [00:15:45] I literally straight away I was this is incredible, phenomenal learning [00:15:50] from this course.

Payman Langroudi: Can you think of a couple of things from that course that were the kind of unlocks [00:15:55] that made you think, shit, why have I been doing it this way?

Amber Aplin: I’ve been doing it wrong all my life.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of things [00:16:00] are we talking?

Amber Aplin: So one of the main things, one thing straight away, was they said, okay, just raise your [00:16:05] hands in this room. Who? Um. Which substrate bonds better? Enamel [00:16:10] or dentine? Enamel, of course. You know, it’s dentine and [00:16:15] dentine was the answer. And then they went into why. And then they proved it through the evidence and, and [00:16:20] um, dentine is a much stronger bond, but it takes longer to get [00:16:25] there. Oh yeah. So enamel bonds really quickly, easily. Anyone can bond to [00:16:30] enamel and it’s very predictable. Um, but denting it [00:16:35] takes time for that bond to mature. So it takes five minutes, actually. So once [00:16:40] you do the adhesive layers, you’ve got to wait five minutes before the, [00:16:45] the composites kind of layering and things for restorations. Um, but more than that, [00:16:50] it’s about the C factor and the cavity shape. That’s a big influence. Um, [00:16:55] so the bonds have to be greater than the stresses for the shrinkage [00:17:00] of the composite. Um, so C factor is really influential and [00:17:05] so is the occlusion as well.

Payman Langroudi: Do you believe in putting fibres in to affect that.

Amber Aplin: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is [00:17:10] that a real thing.

Amber Aplin: Yeah. Yeah. Um so dentine bonds differently. Different parts of dentine. [00:17:15] So you’ve got superficial dentine which is just near the um enamel that bonds really, [00:17:20] really. Well, um, you have to make sure it’s obviously caries free as well. [00:17:25] So even things like they showed a photo of a tooth that looked crystal [00:17:30] clear of any caries. And then they said, well, who can [00:17:35] spot the caries here? And they picked me because I was one of the oldest on the course. I said, well, you can’t actually tell [00:17:40] really, um, where it is. That’s that’s right. You know, but they put the caries dye on and [00:17:45] it just showed caries everywhere, you know, and they did a series of photos, about ten [00:17:50] lots of photos where they cleaned the caries away and dried it, retested it with caries dye [00:17:55] again and then revealed more caries. And they kept doing this, you know, um, this [00:18:00] kind of system and protocol until it was caries free. Because you can’t spot [00:18:05] it, you can’t feel it. It’s very objective. Sorry. It’s very subjective, you know. Yeah. [00:18:10] Um, each clinician will find caries differently and take more or less away than anybody else. [00:18:15] But if you leave any caries there, it’s just going to fail, you know? And or at least.

Payman Langroudi: The bond [00:18:20] strength is going to be less secondary. Are you talking about secondary caries?

Amber Aplin: Secondary caries. It’s bond [00:18:25] strength. It’s the restoration not bonding therefore leading to gaps forming underneath and [00:18:30] sensitivity afterwards.

Payman Langroudi: So the old thing people used to say about sort of affected dentine and just with your [00:18:35] probe, sort of that’s that’s not good enough.

Amber Aplin: Not good enough. I mean it’s a real thing affected and [00:18:40] infected dentine. Um, but I don’t think you can feel with certainty with [00:18:45] a probe.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so interesting. I mean, there are other areas that look absolutely clear, [00:18:50] but there is, there are there is caries there.

Amber Aplin: I mean, I’ve got so many photographs and I keep meaning [00:18:55] to publish more photos, you know, I need to do more of that. Yeah. And, um, I do a photo of a cavity [00:19:00] I think is crystal clear, and I do a photo. And then I put the caries [00:19:05] dye on, and it’s just like caries everywhere. And it’s like, oh, it’s crazy.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:19:10] is caries detection? Do you know?

Amber Aplin: I mean, I use their products for cura or cura [00:19:15] products and it’s a pink dye. Um, it actually just detects [00:19:20] the, um, bacterial By-Products, not the actual bacteria themselves. [00:19:25] So, um, yeah, it just tested the [00:19:30] products themselves and it just clings on to them. It’s kind of the die itself. Well, you [00:19:35] wash, you wash it away, and then any remaining dye is where the caries is. So the [00:19:40] red dye is the infected and the the pink is the affected. Mhm. So [00:19:45] you have to make sure that the peripheral area is completely 100% clear of [00:19:50] caries and cracks. And then you know the bond is going to be phenomenal in the restoration. [00:19:55]

Payman Langroudi: So if I’ve got a cracked like if I’ve got a patient with [00:20:00] an amalgam and a crack on that tooth. Do you chase that [00:20:05] crack until it’s no longer there every time? Or are there some [00:20:10] cracks that are good cracks that you can leave? How can you tell which is which?

Amber Aplin: There’s both actually. So in [00:20:15] that peripheral 2 to 3mm, you want to try and create the 100% [00:20:20] clear peripheral seal around the whole tooth so that the bond is going to be phenomenal around [00:20:25] that area. You have to leave, um, cracks and caries, which are [00:20:30] over the pulp. Yeah, but you can measure that. Measure it. Measure it from the height of the [00:20:35] the tooth.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Amber Aplin: Or the adjacent tooth. It’s five millimetres down is where the pulp horns [00:20:40] are.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Amber Aplin: And follow the inclines of the tooth to, to, um, ensure [00:20:45] you’ve got the most caries and cracks away. So in that peripheral area, you [00:20:50] have to chase cracks right down to, to reach the bottom of them so you can get 11 12 [00:20:55] millimetre, um, channels almost where the cracks are. You don’t take [00:21:00] the enamel away from the outside, though, so you’re going down the very safe zone, which between [00:21:05] the kind of between the, the external root of the tooth and down between [00:21:10] where the, um, the pulp is. Yeah. So you get a real safe zone. You can, um, uh, [00:21:15] work to find the, the crack end point, but then you leave it [00:21:20] over the pulp area because you don’t want to expose.

Payman Langroudi: And then I mean, the number. I [00:21:25] mean, I haven’t done that for 12, 13 years now, but the number of teeth that have [00:21:30] cracks adjacent to amalgams are in the distal.

Amber Aplin: Always. [00:21:35]

Payman Langroudi: Or one of the cusps you can see it’s just cracked. So you are saying we have to kind of, [00:21:40] you know, you have to chase that crack down. Yeah.

Amber Aplin: Otherwise it’ll progress. Otherwise. [00:21:45] I mean, if if you’re concerned about perforating, if [00:21:50] you really think, oh, I just can’t go any further, um, you know, without risking perforating, [00:21:55] which is going to be a worst case scenario, you can you would leave it, you know, just to [00:22:00] kind of experience and, and the skills you’ve got. But then [00:22:05] you can mitigate that with various ways to restore the tooth afterwards. You can um.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:22:10] is your, is your, is your sense that a lot of dentists are not addressing cracks? I certainly [00:22:15] wasn’t when I was, when I was an associate, I certainly wasn’t addressing every crack [00:22:20] I was. I was removing caries.

Amber Aplin: Yeah. Yeah. [00:22:25] I mean, um, before this course, I wouldn’t know how. I mean, I did this [00:22:30] course first, the two day course, then I went to do the year long mastership, which is 135 [00:22:35] articles and, and, and, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, where’s.

Amber Aplin: That lectures. It’s online lectures. And [00:22:40] then I went over to Utah as well, to work with Davey and his clinic for a few days. [00:22:45] Oh.

Payman Langroudi: What was it.

Amber Aplin: Like? Phenomenal. Just seeing the way he worked and and how, [00:22:50] um, his clinic ran and just he just does his day, day in, day out. This is what I love [00:22:55] doing as well. So over the over the time, I have learned how to [00:23:00] manage cracks in the best way. But, um, before that, I would have no idea. And if [00:23:05] a patient came in with pain on biting, I would know it’s a crack or cracked tooth syndrome, but I would never [00:23:10] know how to sort it. And, um, but now it’s so wonderful to treat [00:23:15] things predictably. I mean, you can diagnose it better and earlier [00:23:20] you didn’t want to wait till they become painful. You want to diagnose them before they show symptoms. [00:23:25] They don’t show any signs on x rays. Even so, a lot of my day to day job is, um, [00:23:30] explaining to patients of these high risk teeth, high risk of fracture, high risk of secondary care [00:23:35] like decay. Um, without. But I say, I know how you feel. You [00:23:40] know, I know you’ve got no pain and there’s no sign on the x ray, but there’s a really high risk, and [00:23:45] I can guarantee there’s a crack there. Um, so I’d recommend be treated it now [00:23:50] rather than wait. But it’s up to you and some patients, most of them actually do [00:23:55] at least one. And we pick the highest risk via various measurements of all the teeth [00:24:00] and where the occlusion is the heaviest. And then once they’ve had one done [00:24:05] and they’ve seen the photographs of their cracks and how bad it was and, and the decay there, they’ll [00:24:10] say, well, what’s next? You know, where’s the next tooth to restore? That’s my kind of [00:24:15] treatment comes from is just doing one onlay or layer overlay. Every now and again [00:24:20] on the same page.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know why. Um. Biomimetic dentists seem the most passionate. [00:24:25] Why is that? Um, but but that passion [00:24:30] itself comes through to a patient. Yeah. And and, [00:24:35] you know, in the end, dentistry is a game of trust in the end. [00:24:40] Yeah. You know that you could be the best in the world if people don’t trust you. And [00:24:45] of course, that could be that could be that could be used in a dark way, too, I guess. But but let’s stick to the normal. [00:24:50] You know, if people don’t trust you, you’re not going to be able to help them. And [00:24:55] that trust, of course, comes from, you know, doing what you say you’re going to do and all that. But [00:25:00] the passion. And why do you think biomimetic dentistry inspires passion [00:25:05] more than other kinds of dentistry? Why are they so happy? Biomimetic [00:25:10] dentists.

Amber Aplin: Are.

Payman Langroudi: What do you think it is?

Amber Aplin: I for me, um, I know it’s because [00:25:15] the it’s so predictable. It’s knowledge based, it’s evidence based. [00:25:20] So everything we say to patients is based on evidence and we know it and we can guarantee [00:25:25] treatments. The treatments themselves are, um, rewarding because [00:25:30] it’s slow, takes time. Relaxing rubber dam, you know, and, um, [00:25:35] and then the patient walks away, say this is going to be no bother at all. It’s not going to cause [00:25:40] any pain afterwards. There’s no need to do a provisional or temporary restoration afterwards. [00:25:45] If onlays, you can walk away pain free and we can sleep at night, [00:25:50] you know, and it works every single time you can imagine. You know, [00:25:55] it’s. That’s why.

Payman Langroudi: I guess. I guess it’s also, you know, it’s the bread and butter that we were [00:26:00] taught, you know, it’s it’s what every dentist does every day, but totally different [00:26:05] to, to to that. I mean, it’s still, you know, the day to day of dentistry.

Amber Aplin: It should [00:26:10] be in university. It should be taught at uni. Yeah. And it’s not.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, it’s a lot more of it than [00:26:15] than there was in our. I suspect we’re a similar vintage Dental [00:26:20] school wise, but there’s a lot more. But it’s not part of the course. What’s what’s happening [00:26:25] now is the students getting together and inviting lecturers themselves. Um, a lot [00:26:30] of that happening. Um, but yeah, I mean, I tear whatever hair I had out, [00:26:35] um, you know, uh, teeth whitening. Still not taught at dental school. Not taught, [00:26:40] you know.

Amber Aplin: Is that because it’s, um, government funded and it’s NHS kind of [00:26:45] directed?

Payman Langroudi: I think I think it’s, uh. I mean, you know, we’re not the [00:26:50] universities aren’t supposed to put out NHS dentists, they’re supposed to put out dentists, [00:26:55] you know, isn’t it doesn’t.

Amber Aplin: Feel like that.

Payman Langroudi: But it must be that, right? I mean, you [00:27:00] can’t you can’t have the university put out an NHS dentist because every year the NHS changes, [00:27:05] the university has to change, you know, as it gets, as it, as it erodes. Universities have to erode their [00:27:10] education. Yeah. Um, then, you know, dentistry density has to be a profession that [00:27:15] the university can put out. And we’re trying to be, you know, world class in the UK, for instance. Right. [00:27:20] But what I’m saying about bleaching, I think it’s historical. We’re bleaching. It was illegal until [00:27:25] 2012. Okay. But it’s interesting to see how slowly cogs move [00:27:30] that 13 years later, now that it’s legal and it’s one of [00:27:35] the most asked for procedures, the most it’s the safest thing. All the 80% [00:27:40] of the population would like a white spot. All those things. Yeah. Still hasn’t gone into any of the Dental courses [00:27:45] now. Hell, you know, I should do something about it. I should get together with all the other whitening companies [00:27:50] and do something about it and all that. But to me, it shows how slowly dental [00:27:55] education moves. You know, from my little world. I can see that part. Yeah. So [00:28:00] how long will it be before they teach immediate dentine sealing or something? They probably [00:28:05] do. Right. No, I would hope so.

Amber Aplin: I’d hope so. You know, I’ve got real [00:28:10] aspirations to try and help educate people and help them. Because I just know that once [00:28:15] you know these techniques and protocols, it’s just a game changer. You know, there’s no more kind of uncertainty [00:28:20] in your and it helps patients. You know, that’s the biggest thing we’re all here for is patient care. And [00:28:25] if we can give them composite restorations that last for decades, which is like unreal [00:28:30] or online overlays, again the bio based that we do over the tooth is permanent. [00:28:35] And that’s just amazing really. Um, is. [00:28:40]

Payman Langroudi: That what the the ideas? You mean.

Amber Aplin: The ideas? And a few [00:28:45] more layers on top of that, which is the dentine replacement? That’s kind of the the kind [00:28:50] of I tell patients, it’s the kind of shield for your tooth and that’s permanent. So that prevent any decay [00:28:55] leaking in or cracks forming or anything like that. So it’ll keep the tooth protected for life. [00:29:00] The top structure is designed to fail the onlay overlay, you know, after [00:29:05] decades, couple of decades is the evidence for that because you don’t want it [00:29:10] to, well, bonded because you don’t want to lead to a catastrophic failure. You want to have a fail safe somewhere [00:29:15] in the event of, you know, trauma or heavy occlusion or something. But the bio [00:29:20] basis is there for for life, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Is that is that controversial or [00:29:25] is that not?

Amber Aplin: I think so, I think so because it’s controversial. No, it’s not controversial. No, it’s not evidence [00:29:30] based. Evidence based.

Payman Langroudi: But people haven’t been doing it long enough to to know the [00:29:35] answer to that question.

Amber Aplin: They have I mean, the elements, um, they have restorations of [00:29:40] 26 years and counting. Yeah. So we I’m basing on their [00:29:45] evidence because this is what we’ve learned from and their protocols. So I [00:29:50] feel like we can transfer those that longevity into our practice. Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [00:29:55] So I want to go on to a couple of other things. You know teeth that before [00:30:00] you might have not been able to restore. And now you feel like you can.

Amber Aplin: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like [00:30:05] what are the limits of that in your I mean Let’s call it hero periodontics. [00:30:10]

Amber Aplin: Yeah, I like a challenge, actually.

Payman Langroudi: Subgingival [00:30:15] sort of crestal bone level. The whole matrixing thing. Yeah. Where did you learn that? Was [00:30:20] that the.

Amber Aplin: Same? You know, I think you’ve got to be a little bit if you want to push the boundaries [00:30:25] a little bit. A bit bold. I’ve been quite, quite bold as long as patients are on board. If [00:30:30] a patient tells me they’re really keen to save a tooth, and I say to them, well, this one here, [00:30:35] I won’t be able to guarantee, you know, just as long as you’re honest with patients and say, this is a bit of, um, this [00:30:40] is really borderline restorable, but we’ll try our best. And, um, the [00:30:45] actual bonding is phenomenal, but it’s just as you say, it’s if it’s really deep subgingival near [00:30:50] where the bone is. But as long as you can get that, um, copper, um, [00:30:55] to get right down next to the PDL and you get [00:31:00] a really great seal, then it’s going to bond. So, um, yeah, [00:31:05] Somebody, I’ll say no. You know, if it’s, for example, gross [00:31:10] carries through half the tooth and the roots almost kind of chopped away through the caries then. [00:31:15] No, you know, but, um, that’s it.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [00:31:20] the extent of it. Everything else I’ll save. Yeah. Has there been a situation where [00:31:25] you’ve got it wrong?

Amber Aplin: Yeah. Actually, recently, actually, um, one [00:31:30] thing we we can’t do obviously, is reverse engineer. If there’s a bacterial load in, [00:31:35] in the pulp that’s going to cause an abscess or cause the pulp to go non-vital. So [00:31:40] we can’t always tell. So if a tooth’s already symptomatic. Yeah. Um, and the caries [00:31:45] is already really close to the pulp and already deep, deep cracks there. Um, I’ll tell the [00:31:50] patient, um, there’s a high risk of needing root canal here, you know, but, um, [00:31:55] in this case, I didn’t really say it. That probably clearly maybe didn’t understand what I was saying. [00:32:00] Um, and a year later, and but it was a really crazy difficult one. And deep, deep crack [00:32:05] and everything. And I’ve got photographs as well. I always photograph every single stage. Went back and looked [00:32:10] at the photographs and it was pretty, pretty deep and difficult. Um, and then [00:32:15] he developed a big abscess literally about two weeks ago. We X-rayed it and thought, are huge abscess there. [00:32:20] And he was really cross. I’ve done about 4 or 5 onlays on this patient. So it’s a really [00:32:25] great patient, great rapport, really trusting you, said Amber. You told me this is a permanent [00:32:30] seal. You told me that it would never lead to leakage or, um, any more [00:32:35] decay or anything, or it’ll prevent the need for needing root canals. Um, you [00:32:40] know, but here we are a year later, there’s a big abscess needing root canal for £1,200. [00:32:45] Now, why should I pay for that? So I spent a bit of time and he wouldn’t accept a phone call [00:32:50] either. I was like, oh, I’d rather phone you about it rather than have to write to you. So [00:32:55] I wrote him a letter, a couple letters, and, um, but I but he’s [00:33:00] fine now. He understood. Now, you know, once the bacteria load is [00:33:05] really, um, too great in the tooth and the tooth can’t recover, then it’s going [00:33:10] to form an abscess. And we can’t help that.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got an amazing idea. Yeah, [00:33:15] like you seem so confident. Yeah, yeah. Just give [00:33:20] a lifetime guarantee. Charge more.

Amber Aplin: I would.

Payman Langroudi: Charge more.

Amber Aplin: I want to do that. I do [00:33:25] not.

Payman Langroudi: Charge more based on the lifetime guarantee.

Amber Aplin: A big practice. [00:33:30] So I believe we’ve got to do the same thing in practice. Yeah. I can’t do something different [00:33:35] to my. Well, you can, my colleagues.

Payman Langroudi: You can, you can, you can offer like. I mean, I’m not saying you have to. You’re right. [00:33:40] It’s absolutely right. If everyone’s doing it because it’s a brand thing then. But but you know what [00:33:45] the problem I see with it is if you come to sell this practice, someone then [00:33:50] has to take on that lifetime guarantee. And that that issue [00:33:55] is is the weirdness of it. But but I think like, you know, if you’re [00:34:00] hand on heart, think you are, you know, doing work that’s going to last 30 [00:34:05] years then and you’re telling patients that anyway [00:34:10] anyway, it’s causing this issue. I know it doesn’t happen often that you [00:34:15] get this issue, but that’s also part of the point of it. You’re not going to have not many people are going [00:34:20] to invoke their lifetime guarantee. And yet you can charge, let’s say, [00:34:25] one and a half times the price because of the lifetime guarantee. [00:34:30] Yeah. So any time it is invoked, it’s already paid for anyway by all those one and a half times that people [00:34:35] have paid. Yeah. I think it’s such an interesting idea. No, honestly.

Amber Aplin: This is what I want to do. And you’ve literally. [00:34:40]

Payman Langroudi: Are you going to do this?

Amber Aplin: No, I want to do this. I have this dream one day in [00:34:45] the future, um, a long time away of opening a squat somewhere and doing [00:34:50] that on my own. Because you can’t do it in a big practice. I don’t believe that our brand is so strong, and, [00:34:55] um, my colleagues are all doing the same thing. They’ve all done the year long mastership. [00:35:00] They’re all doing the same training all the same, because patients have to have the same experience no matter who they see. [00:35:05] So there’s four dentists there and three therapists. We all do the same protocols [00:35:10] for our restorations. So we’ve got to charge the same [00:35:15] therapists all charge the same for the for our treatments. Really? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Would [00:35:20] you tell the patient about the therapist?

Amber Aplin: In what way?

Payman Langroudi: About the fact [00:35:25] that they’re not a dentist.

Amber Aplin: I mean, they’re trained [00:35:30] to do, um, work within their scope. So the work they do, they’re the same training [00:35:35] level as is the work that we is. Is us really? Yeah. So that we tell them. [00:35:40] Yeah. Because they are.

Payman Langroudi: But is that what you say to the patient? Yeah. That this isn’t a dentist, but [00:35:45] the work they’re going to do is going to be at the same level as the dentist.

Amber Aplin: So do you mean if they do some treatment [00:35:50] on a patient? Yeah. Like a restoration or the.

Payman Langroudi: Patient has to know or don’t they? [00:35:55]

Amber Aplin: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So the patient has to know. Yeah. So when you tell them, what did you tell them?

Amber Aplin: Well, our [00:36:00] patients actually therapists first in our practice. So it’s therapist led care. So our therapists [00:36:05] do the private check-ups and the hygiene. And they then diagnose [00:36:10] treatments. They recommend the treatment plan. And then if the [00:36:15] treatment within their scope, they will do it themselves or at least offer the patient [00:36:20] they can do it themselves or they can refer to their dentist to do it. Yeah. Um, and [00:36:25] they refer things out with their scope to us to do so. So that question doesn’t [00:36:30] really come up because they’ve already diagnosed the problem. They’ve done the scan, the x rays, the photos [00:36:35] they’ve discussed with the patient about the secondary caries or the risk of cracks. They’ve [00:36:40] planned to do a composite restoration, for example. Um, and they’ll just [00:36:45] book it in with themselves. And the patients know their therapists, they know they’ve got the training, the skills.

Payman Langroudi: Has [00:36:50] it ever come up as an issue?

Amber Aplin: Um, [00:36:55] not that I’m aware of. When we first did the conversion, there was a handful of patients [00:37:00] that questioned it. You know, we’ve been seeing you for years, Amber. And why am I seeing a therapist now? Um, [00:37:05] and really, the truth of the matter is, I mean, we know as [00:37:10] dentists. Certainly for me, anyway, therapists are far better at the preventative [00:37:15] side of things. The far better at their prevention experts. [00:37:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. That’s right.

Amber Aplin: And our patients are all long standing kind of plan members as [00:37:25] well. Um, with generally good, stable dental health. So [00:37:30] our therapists are the experts in prevention.

Payman Langroudi: Yes.

Amber Aplin: Yeah. [00:37:35] So they see a therapist for that reason. Um, and they actually have a better experience [00:37:40] in my mind. Um, in terms of their check-up, their [00:37:45] plan member Check-up would be a longer appointment. They’re in one place for 45 minutes. They [00:37:50] have an Itero scan. They get to see their teeth, Photographs, [00:37:55] x rays, you know, have pearl, you know, communication tools and everything. So can [00:38:00] you imagine before that doing a 15 minute check-up with a dentist, then straight to a half an hour hygiene [00:38:05] treatment to now it’s a 45 minute double appointment like joint appointment [00:38:10] for it’s longer in the chair because you’re not having to walk, change surgeries, wait [00:38:15] five minutes in between, you know. Yeah, yeah. You know, and you’re doubling the conversation. You’re doubling the [00:38:20] the oral cancer screening. You’re doubling the kind of rapport building. So it’s all done in [00:38:25] one long appointment. It’s more relaxed, more tech, more information, more communication. And [00:38:30] for me, um, it’s certainly better conversions compared to us [00:38:35] dentists compared to the previous year.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re saying the therapist charges [00:38:40] exactly the same as the dentist, and you’re saying the standard of the work is as good as the dentist? [00:38:45]

Amber Aplin: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And so what’s the difference? So you pay the therapist less than you pay the dentist. [00:38:50]

Amber Aplin: Our therapists are all employed. Salaried salaried.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [00:38:55] So that’s the arbitrage from the practice perspective.

Amber Aplin: I mean, it’s not really about the money although [00:39:00] it’s about it’s about patient care. But but but the [00:39:05] business is more challenging as we go on. You know it’s getting more and more difficult to make it work. Yeah. [00:39:10] So it was a patient care thing and also a, um, [00:39:15] a business thing as well at the same time. But for business it’s phenomenal. For business. Phenomenal. Yeah. [00:39:20] Because we’ve got more time in our diaries for these high value treatments for dentists [00:39:25] and less time for these check-ups and things.

Payman Langroudi: And I’m super interested in it. I’m super interested [00:39:30] in a therapist led, private quality practice. I haven’t [00:39:35] really come across it. I have I’ve I’ve come across therapy. You know, we do a composite bonding, [00:39:40] uh, anterior composite course and we get therapists on that course. And their [00:39:45] work is better than most of the dentists. We used to give a prize out. Yeah, and the therapist would win it [00:39:50] a lot of the time. Yeah, although I thought maybe it’s self-selecting. You know, the kind of the kind of therapist [00:39:55] who’s going to pay me £1,000 to come on a composite course might be the real someone who [00:40:00] really wants to do. Well, maybe. Maybe it’s that. But. But when you’re teaching a new skill, [00:40:05] whether it’s a dentist or a therapist, it doesn’t mean the dentist is going to learn [00:40:10] it any quicker than the in fact, you know, there’s no there’s no reason to assume that, um, [00:40:15] but you would have thought in a private practice setting, patients [00:40:20] would object and you’ve kind of gotten over that.

Amber Aplin: I think it’s about communication [00:40:25] and trust. As you say, communication is key. We spent a long time writing the letter [00:40:30] to our patients, explaining about the change, the transformation [00:40:35] and the change in their care. So, um, I think the letter was the key thing, really. [00:40:40] And also before that, we were drip feeding it through our newsletters to patients about the how [00:40:45] great therapists are doing, you know, doing the, um, restorative photographs on our, um, [00:40:50] on our social media channels, just highlighting how [00:40:55] great therapists are at the practice, what therapists are doing currently, what therapists can do. Um, [00:41:00] just before the letter went out, we did a lot of that in the months preceding the kind of change just [00:41:05] help educate patients about what therapists could do, um, and what our therapists could do, because ours are [00:41:10] really great. You know, you’ve got to have therapists that really want to grow, want to learn.

Payman Langroudi: Of course. [00:41:15]

Amber Aplin: And love their job. You know, that’s a big thing, I think, as well. Like anyone, I suppose [00:41:20] any clinician. Yeah. Um, so yeah, the letter was important. So a lovely [00:41:25] letter. Two two things. One was a intro which is bullet points. So people who [00:41:30] prefer just a quick bit of info, they’ve got the knowledge that information there. Yeah. Accompanied with [00:41:35] a booklet that was beautifully branded glossy about with [00:41:40] more information about therapists and what they could do, examples of their treatments, testimonials and just [00:41:45] more information about how it’s going to be better for the patients moving [00:41:50] forward. Yeah, it worked great. We on the weekend, we, um, [00:41:55] we did the the letters went out about November, um, [00:42:00] 24 last year. Um, and the Monday afterwards, we [00:42:05] had all the phones manned, more staff in to cover any queries, you know, for reception phones [00:42:10] and the phone didn’t ring. I was like, what’s going on? It [00:42:15] was so weird. We were just, oh, right, this is good. [00:42:20] Did my list first rolled it out of my list first because [00:42:25] you have to trial it. Trial it because even though we thought we had everything right, you never know [00:42:30] till you actually trial it. Yeah. Um, and it was really successful. So we had a plan [00:42:35] to do everyone else kind of the year later, really. But it was so great. We just all [00:42:40] everyone done now. So the rest of the team were converted in [00:42:45] May of that same year.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, was this your own idea?

Amber Aplin: Yeah. This [00:42:50] idea actually, a long time ago, like I thought this this is the way to go. They [00:42:55] can do all this in their scope. Yeah, but at the time I thought, oh, it’s just massive, you know, it’s [00:43:00] huge change. And I wasn’t really confident with my team back then. And you could have a team who’s on board [00:43:05] with your vision I think before you can do that. And then I wanted to do it about three years ago, but [00:43:10] then I had two therapists on mat leave at the same time, so it wasn’t the best time either. So when [00:43:15] they both came from back from mat leave, um, it was the right time. Empty diaries, you know, and [00:43:20] perfect time to implement it. I need to push though I wasn’t I [00:43:25] knew, I knew it was right in my heart. But, um, actually I was working with, um, you know, Mike Hesketh at [00:43:30] the time, he said, I said to him when he first met me the very first day, this is I know [00:43:35] this is what we should do, Mike. I know this is the way we should go. He said, just do it. I was like, what? [00:43:40] Do it. So he gave me the nudge.

Payman Langroudi: To have him on. He’s been [00:43:45] behind a few of the few of the interesting practices I’ve come across now. Yeah, he’s [00:43:50] having you introduce me to him. Yeah.

Amber Aplin: He’s phenomenal. I must say, because we’re already doing great. [00:43:55] I must say the practice was already brilliant because the team are phenomenal. Um, so when he came, he was [00:44:00] like a great place here. And I had no social media at the time. Hardly. And he said, you’ve got to [00:44:05] shout about what you do here. And and it’s not really me. I’m quite quiet. I like to keep my [00:44:10] head down and. But you can’t really help people or patients or you can’t really recruit. I [00:44:15] don’t think if people.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t, staff.

Amber Aplin: Don’t know about you. So he encouraged me to join [00:44:20] LinkedIn and, and do more promotion about the practice and what we [00:44:25] do and all that. So he that’s, that’s that’s what his influence was for me and confidence that [00:44:30] we’re doing great as well, because you don’t really feel confident if you’re working in your own practice with your blinkers [00:44:35] on, you don’t really see the bigger picture.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Are you aware of others running something [00:44:40] like this?

Amber Aplin: Therapist led care.

Payman Langroudi: Private care?

Amber Aplin: No. No.

Payman Langroudi: So is that. [00:44:45]

Amber Aplin: I’m happy to.

Payman Langroudi: I’d love to run and all that. Is it. Is it based [00:44:50] on training people on that as well? Was it just the clinical skills?

Amber Aplin: I believe [00:44:55] it goes hand in hand actually. Yeah. So it’s been quite serendipitous how it’s all worked out [00:45:00] and didn’t know it would come together so well at the time. Yeah. So it’s two kind of parallel [00:45:05] journeys, I suppose. Or um, you know, uh, ways of changing [00:45:10] the practice. So, um, yeah, both kind of same in parallel. I [00:45:15] think the biggest thing about biomimetics and what we now teach directly from [00:45:20] what the animals taught me and all the evidence is how to diagnose things [00:45:25] predictably. So there’s four red flags for a tooth if it’s high risk [00:45:30] of fracture and things. So our therapist can measure the width of a [00:45:35] filling and can measure the width of a cusp, they can measure the depth of the filling. Look at the bite on the [00:45:40] itero scan and they tell a patient that’s a high risk tooth. It’s [00:45:45] black and white. It’s stuff you can hang your coat on. That’s what you need for therapists and clinicians [00:45:50] to plan treatment, you know. So I [00:45:55] think without having that, those kind of black and white criteria about what to refer to [00:46:00] the dentist and things, it would be very difficult for anyone to know which would benefit from an [00:46:05] onlay or a large composite. So that’s been a really great thing as the diagnostic, [00:46:10] um, element to that.

Payman Langroudi: And if it’s a large composite, generally the therapist [00:46:15] is doing it themselves.

Amber Aplin: We to be honest, we’re quite up to capacity with therapists now. Already [00:46:20] we’re looking for another a fourth therapist. So their books are pretty full with these longer um, [00:46:25] check-ups stroke hygiene appointments. They, they do do some treatments. They do all of our kids [00:46:30] dentistry as well. So they haven’t got a lot of scope for these treatments.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. So mainly [00:46:35] dentists are doing at the moment.

Amber Aplin: We’re doing a lot of stuff therapists could be doing. They will be doing some [00:46:40] composite restorations for sure. Um, I don’t think any of us do big composites anyway. [00:46:45] We if it’s kind of, um, I would say a third or half would be almost only [00:46:50] territory. So it’s either going to be a if it’s going to be a small amalgam, [00:46:55] it’s going to be a composite, a small class two or something.

Payman Langroudi: Between a direct only.

Amber Aplin: Um, [00:47:00] indirect, indirect indirect. So really, unless it’s obviously [00:47:05] a small amalgam you’re replacing, it’s going to be an onlay almost all the times because [00:47:10] our patients are older demographic, they’re all kind of 60 ish. Average age [00:47:15] all got big amalgams with cracks and things. So there’s it’s almost [00:47:20] always on those overlays anyway I would say.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. I understood you were doing [00:47:25] huge composites.

Amber Aplin: No, no.

Payman Langroudi: Well there [00:47:30] is.

Amber Aplin: My skill set is not there. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: There’s quite a lot of people doing those.

Amber Aplin: Things. Yeah, some people are doing [00:47:35] a lot of that. I think it’s where your skill sets lie and and really, um, I [00:47:40] prefer doing it on layers and overlays. A great lab works really well for us.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:47:45] so have you moved it on from quadrant to full mouth for yourself?

Amber Aplin: Yeah. [00:47:50]

Payman Langroudi: Are you doing full mouth rehabs and things?

Amber Aplin: I am, I am doing them. I don’t love [00:47:55] doing those. Um, but we have got a lot of patients with tooth wear. Yeah. So I have done that training [00:48:00] with Andy Chandra on the, the training that he’s learned [00:48:05] about. So I do use the Coy’s, um, protocols for some cases, [00:48:10] but only if it’s really great patients. If it’s a tricky patient, I’ll not be going near it because I [00:48:15] don’t do that many cases.

Payman Langroudi: And what else do you do? Do you do implants? Surgery? [00:48:20]

Amber Aplin: I have an implant dentist that comes along once a week. So we restore implants for [00:48:25] him. Um hum. Yeah. Surgicals not me.

Payman Langroudi: Not, you.

Amber Aplin: Know, no.

Payman Langroudi: Endo. [00:48:30]

Amber Aplin: Not me. I’ve got, um, I’ve got Wil Donovan, who does our endodontics. Yeah, [00:48:35] he He’s on a specialist pathway in London right now. So he’s finishing the Eastman um, [00:48:40] degree just next year. So he’s working one day, two days [00:48:45] a month right now with us on Saturdays, and he’ll work with us one day a week when he finishes [00:48:50] his degree. So yeah, he’s great. So he didn’t do any I don’t do any endo. I didn’t do [00:48:55] any ortho. No.

Payman Langroudi: I do kind of like a specialist, I do biomimetics. [00:49:00]

Amber Aplin: I do my therapist led care is so great because each clinician can [00:49:05] choose what they want it should look like for them and what where their passions lie. So [00:49:10] my day is full of probably three on laser overlays in one day, maybe [00:49:15] an implant restoration. And that’s about it, really. [00:49:20] I refer my extractions, the difficult ones. Sorry to my colleague who loves doing difficult extractions. [00:49:25] I don’t do any dentures because I’ve got two colleagues who like doing dentures. Just [00:49:30] refer sideways, you know, if you don’t like doing something and then the patients get the best. [00:49:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I took a break when we started the company. I took a five year break. Then, [00:49:40] um, I came back my my wife, when she got pregnant, I [00:49:45] came back and did some dentistry. And once I’d had the break, I thought if I did dentistry, [00:49:50] I’d just stick to the things I’m really good at and refer everything else. Um, [00:49:55] and even though obviously it’s different because financially it makes sense for you to [00:50:00] refer to your colleagues in your own practice. Whereas for me, I was losing money by doing that, but [00:50:05] I didn’t care about the money at all from dentistry because I was so focussed on this. So, [00:50:10] so I was just doing dentistry to do dentistry, you know, you define yourself as something. Yeah. [00:50:15] Um, and it is a kind of it is a happy life. It is a happy life because it’s, it’s two, [00:50:20] two different things. One, you’re doing the thing you love. Um, and so [00:50:25] that’s great. And you’re not doing the bits you don’t love. But two for everything else the patients getting [00:50:30] an absolute expert, It, you know. And so, you know, it’s brilliant [00:50:35] because the patients getting the best outcome and you’re getting the best outcome if you’re doing the things you love [00:50:40] only. Yeah, it’s a great way to live. And especially in your situation where you [00:50:45] pass it on sideways to your own associate. Yeah. So the practice is still thriving, [00:50:50] that that treatment isn’t lost or whatever, you know, as you think of if you’re an associate, you [00:50:55] know, um, it’s an interesting way to live. I like that.

Amber Aplin: I love it, honestly. In the corridor [00:51:00] we pass each other. I’m always smiling, always beaming. It’s a happy place, is it? Everyone’s just joyous [00:51:05] because we’re just. Everyone’s just working to their passions and their best skills, you know? [00:51:10] And I will take on difficult patients for my colleagues. You know, I guess being associates, you don’t have to treat [00:51:15] anybody or everybody. Sorry. So patients that they might find difficult, I’ll [00:51:20] just take them on and happy to do so I don’t mind. I quite enjoy a challenge sometimes. I love the [00:51:25] challenge of someone being quite demanding or difficult. Then I’ll kind of [00:51:30] assess whether or not they’re treatable in the practice or not, whether they’re for the practice, or whether they should be kind [00:51:35] of asked to go somewhere else. Moved on, moved on. But I love getting to know people [00:51:40] and seeing if I can work with them. It’s quite nice to succeed at that. If if, you know, [00:51:45] perhaps they’re nervous or something else, but, um, it’s quite nice to do [00:51:50] that.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve been to a lot of practices, right. I must have been to at least a thousand practices. [00:51:55] And you sometimes walk in and immediately [00:52:00] the, the receptionist sort of comes and opens the [00:52:05] door for you and says, Doctor Langroudi, we’ve been expecting you. Um, and then you hear [00:52:10] laughter coming out of a surgery, and then a nurse is going to the staff [00:52:15] room and says, hi, incidentally, you know, says hi and notices you and, and [00:52:20] and makes a joke and it’s a happy situation. Yeah. And then sometimes obviously the complete opposite. [00:52:25] Yeah. Stress. Um, it’s almost like an air of you [00:52:30] must have worked in a practice like this as well, right? An era of er of, um. When, when [00:52:35] I’m training the team, sometimes almost like I’m, there’s, there’s two camps that you’re dealing [00:52:40] with. Two, two different power bases. So sad.

Amber Aplin: It’s so sad when that happens. [00:52:45]

Payman Langroudi: But but but what I was going to what I’m getting at is do you think. Do you agree with me? I know [00:52:50] that that comes down from the top. You know, if you’re a happy person and relaxed, your team [00:52:55] will be. If you’re not, and if you’re indecisive, your team will be. [00:53:00] You know your team. Get that from the top.

Amber Aplin: I don’t know, probably [00:53:05] more than likely in most cases. Um, when I first bought the practice, though, it was [00:53:10] like that. When I first bought the practice.

Payman Langroudi: Two teams.

Amber Aplin: It was two teams. It was. But I didn’t [00:53:15] even see it. I didn’t see it. It was. It was kind of. It didn’t feel right. It didn’t feel comfortable.

[BOTH]: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Amber Aplin: I [00:53:20] didn’t see it because I’m quite gullible. I’m quite naive. I’m very naive and very trusting and believing. [00:53:25] Um, I didn’t see it going on. It was bullying under the seams, under the kind [00:53:30] of behind my back, really. And it actually came out through lockdown [00:53:35] when the team were all kind of, you know, on social, on their kind [00:53:40] of groups and talking about me, complaining about everything, bitching about me. [00:53:45] And one loyal person, let me see what was going on. I was [00:53:50] like, oh my goodness, I wouldn’t have had a clue otherwise, you know? And and then [00:53:55] how.

Payman Langroudi: Did you feel?

Amber Aplin: Oh, that’s a low point. Was it? Um, I [00:54:00] kind of felt it a little bit.

Payman Langroudi: Betrayed or something, or.

Amber Aplin: I think it’s because I always [00:54:05] mean well and mean no harm. And when someone gets you wrong and [00:54:10] or it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Doubly painful.

Amber Aplin: Isn’t it? It was very hard, actually, and that was a very [00:54:15] low point. I didn’t mind lockdown at all. It was great because I actually well, it wasn’t great, obviously, [00:54:20] but um, it was the right time for me to look at the practice. I had it three years before that. So [00:54:25] it looked at the branding, the business, you know everything. All [00:54:30] business review over lockdown just while I had time. Um, and, uh, [00:54:35] I was actually answering the phone calls to patients every day. I was, I was the point of contact for all the incoming [00:54:40] calls. That was quite nice to, um, but I had a sense that [00:54:45] people weren’t quite on the same page as me then. You know, I had the occasional zoom call, and it just felt [00:54:50] very awkward. And I was like, because you can’t see them face to face. It was very hard, you know? [00:54:55] So, um, the first experience came back was the [00:55:00] practice manager, and the senior nurse had me called [00:55:05] me for a meeting. So before that, I let them kind of run the show, run [00:55:10] the run it in the way they had done before. I didn’t want to rock the boat at all. So anyway, I had them [00:55:15] call me for a meeting saying, um, the whole team, the whole team don’t feel safe to come back to work. [00:55:20] I was like, wow, that is that’s tough to listen, [00:55:25] tough to take, you know. But in reality, it wasn’t me doing the protocols.

Amber Aplin: It was kind [00:55:30] of them, you know what I mean? So I felt I had no control over or had control, but I felt, [00:55:35] how am I how is this coming across? What am I doing wrong to let that kind of be the message? [00:55:40] Um, of course, I was keen to get going because it was a business and it was [00:55:45] a private practice. We had no funding at all from the government. Yeah. Um, luckily [00:55:50] furlough was there to save us, which the staff loved. Of course, that was a great [00:55:55] time for them to. And, um, I was like, Crikey, this is, this is really, [00:56:00] really tough. And um, so I actually phoned Chris Barrow. I said, what am I going to do here? [00:56:05] And he was a great support. Great support. He said, Amber, they’re [00:56:10] either with you or they’re not. If they’re not with you, they can go the [00:56:15] famous saying on the bus or not on the bus. Well, I had that same conversation with [00:56:20] them the very next time. I said, guys, you know, this is what I need to do to get this practice going. This is [00:56:25] what we have to do and work, you know, eight till two, then two till eight. And and [00:56:30] didn’t agree with that. I said, this is what we’re doing. You’re either with me or not. So then next [00:56:35] week they kind of like five of them said, right.

Payman Langroudi: We’re going five of them, one [00:56:40] whole power base. My goodness.

Amber Aplin: In one go. Um, so that was actually. [00:56:45]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, listen, I’m sorry, I’m interested to see how you handled that. But for someone [00:56:50] to leave their job, it’s it’s huge, isn’t it? Yeah. There’s there’s consequences [00:56:55] to your household. I guess we’re talking some junior people as well, right? Some nurses [00:57:00] or whatever it was.

Amber Aplin: It was all the senior management team, really, I suppose. And [00:57:05] I should be fair. To be fair, two of them retired because of all the PPE and everything. So it was really [00:57:10] three of the power ones left and two others retired at the same time. So the two that retired.

[BOTH]: Were [00:57:15] were you kind of.

Payman Langroudi: Intentionally harsh was, you know, was it was it was, it was it was it a [00:57:20] massive surprise and a massive nightmare. Or were you kind of happy about it at the time?

Amber Aplin: This kind of conversation happening [00:57:25] with you is very calm, very much. This is the way it has to be. Yeah. You’re either with me or you’re not. [00:57:30] We can’t have a split approach here, you know. And so it was very calm, very nice conversation. [00:57:35] And, um.

Payman Langroudi: Did it surprise you when they walked out?

Amber Aplin: I was actually [00:57:40] kind of glad. I relieved. I was like, this is a weight off. At the same time as, like, what [00:57:45] we’re going to do with these patients, plan members who we owe check-ups. Oh, hygiene for the past three months. [00:57:50]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah.

Amber Aplin: Um, diary is full of patients that were there, that hadn’t been moved at that point with, [00:57:55] um, almost no team, you know, had a handful. Well, maybe three that were left.

[BOTH]: What [00:58:00] did you do?

Payman Langroudi: Did you hire.

Amber Aplin: Recruited?

Payman Langroudi: Hard to recruit.

Amber Aplin: Recruit? It was actually [00:58:05] a good time to recruit for us in the ward in the borders, because everyone, I don’t know, people have lost their jobs [00:58:10] because of the because of lockdown and Covid.

Payman Langroudi: Businesses. Businesses.

Amber Aplin: So [00:58:15] we had a huge pool of applicants each time. So I recruited from a lot of interviews. [00:58:20] We’ve got probably two each time and thought, you’re a great person, let’s find the job for you somewhere.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:58:25] it was a really difficult time down here. I remember, you know, a lot of people had gone [00:58:30] back home. You know, London is full of foreigners, right? A lot of people have gone back home during, uh, [00:58:35] Covid and then hadn’t come back.

Amber Aplin: Right.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Um, there was inflation, [00:58:40] you know, like, uh, wage inflation. People wanted more money [00:58:45] than than than before.

Amber Aplin: That’s right. They chose to do a part time rather than.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:58:50]

Amber Aplin: A lifestyle choices.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, like many, many of our team are now in a remote that, [00:58:55] you know, whereas they were full time. Many of our team are remote. And so you have to understand [00:59:00] from your nurse’s perspective, she has a best friend who’s working from [00:59:05] home. Yeah. And so the extra of course, some people love leaving home and meeting [00:59:10] people and all that. And those are the people you want to recruit, right? Yeah. But, you know, if you see working from home as [00:59:15] a benefit, um, then you’ve got to be paid more to work from a from [00:59:20] a place. Yeah. That’s true. You know, it just changed. Covid brought a whole lot of stuff into, [00:59:25] like, accelerated a whole lot of stuff. But for you, it was kind of good.

Amber Aplin: It was great.

Payman Langroudi: Did [00:59:30] you find good people?

Amber Aplin: Yeah. Phenomenal. Phenomenal. We just kept recruiting, actually, and then we ended up developing a practice [00:59:35] a year later from 4 to 6 chairs. Developed the whole top floor for more office [00:59:40] space, bigger staff room.

Payman Langroudi: Um, it was an amazing time in terms of patience. Patience had money in [00:59:45] their pockets.

Amber Aplin: Had money? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It was, it was. I remember everyone was so high in [00:59:50] dentistry thinking everything’s going to be all right.

Amber Aplin: But I wasn’t [00:59:55] very clever, though. I was pretty, I wasn’t very clever or wise because we did not charge nearly enough. [01:00:00] We were undercharging grossly undercharging for everything we did at the time. So I was working really hard [01:00:05] six days a week trying to recover from Covid and things. Um, I wasn’t [01:00:10] very smart.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about that because, Kelso, to me, maybe I’m wrong. Doesn’t [01:00:15] sound like the richest town in the world, is it? Are there pockets, by the way? [01:00:20] Every single area has people who’ve got a bit of money in their pockets. Right.

Amber Aplin: Um, [01:00:25] there’s a mix, actually. A big mix, like you say, from wealthy farmers who [01:00:30] like to keep money in their pocket. Actually, um, there’s actually lots of big castles around there and [01:00:35] dukes and things. Um, a lot of, I suppose, um, businesses [01:00:40] in the area, business owners. I mean, we have a whole range of patients. A lot of [01:00:45] them actually are probably semi-retired as well. Moving, moving there, um, for long [01:00:50] term retirement, I guess.

Payman Langroudi: What is the positioning of the practice as far as [01:00:55] you know? Is it do you do you position yourself at the top end as far as [01:01:00] how much things cost and the quality of care or Marks and Spencer or what? [01:01:05]

Amber Aplin: We don’t really look at anyone else. I just charge what we feel is right for us. You know [01:01:10] what we offer. So we are we charge quite high, high prices. As [01:01:15] far as I believe. I don’t feel it’s enough, actually. But I think because our patients have, um, [01:01:20] are long standing, loyal patients have seen the kind of since since 2021, 22, [01:01:25] 2020. They’ve seen the the almost the huge increases each [01:01:30] year, year on year. So I’m doing a little bit gradually. If I was on my own, I’d be charging [01:01:35] more. But I’m just doing it gradually as patients can kind of cope with [01:01:40] it. But again, I’m increasing fees by about 20% for the onlays and overlays [01:01:45] from from now from January. Quite a big step again, you know, um, so we’re [01:01:50] all we’re all getting there and getting there now where the prices should be. But um, not [01:01:55] quite, not quite.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, let’s just from a cold business perspective and I know that’s [01:02:00] not what we’re in. We’re not in a cold business. We’re in a warm healthcare business. But from a cold business perspective, [01:02:05] if you add 30% to the price of everything [01:02:10] and you lose 30% of your patients. You’re [01:02:15] way ahead.

Amber Aplin: That would work.

Payman Langroudi: You’re way ahead. You’re not in the same [01:02:20] place. You’re way ahead because you’re doing much less work for the same income. It’s true. And obviously, [01:02:25] you don’t want to lose a single patient. So if you can increase your prices by [01:02:30] 15, 20% and not lose a single patient, the compounding effect [01:02:35] of that three, four years down the line, people forget that, you know, the price [01:02:40] of a crown or whatever. If it goes up 20% a year or 15% a year, pretty [01:02:45] soon it’s doubling. You know that’s.

Amber Aplin: True. That’s true.

Payman Langroudi: You know, um, I used to have [01:02:50] a boss. He was he used to say, oh, your your your patient should always be complaining about how expensive [01:02:55] you are. So really? Yeah. But he really, truly believed that. Yeah. You [01:03:00] know, he was saying if patients aren’t complaining about that, the prices aren’t high enough. Yeah. Um, and he’d [01:03:05] gone private in 1964, in, in Kent, on the seaside, you know, like.

Amber Aplin: I [01:03:10] don’t know. It’s a funny thing because I want to do right by our patients [01:03:15] too, and I want to be affordable for the majority of our patients. We can’t be for everyone, of course, [01:03:20] but a lot of our, um, our team, their family members come to us as well. [01:03:25] And, you know, it’s just a little bit of a balance there. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: Especially in a small town, you’re [01:03:30] kind of like the pillar of the community, isn’t it? You can’t. Like I said, it’s not a cold business decision. [01:03:35]

Amber Aplin: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Have you got any plans to do more?

Amber Aplin: In what way?

Payman Langroudi: More practices.

Amber Aplin: Um, [01:03:40] no. No. I mean, maybe one day, a single chair squat [01:03:45] somewhere alongside alongside alongside. Um. But I [01:03:50] love I love it so much, you know? And the team are all like family. It probably shouldn’t be, but [01:03:55] they are, I think a lot of them and, you know, very love working alongside them all and every [01:04:00] day is a privilege really, you know.

Payman Langroudi: So what do you mean? You mean you’re so happy that you don’t want to risk being unhappy [01:04:05] by opening a second one?

Amber Aplin: Um, no. I’m just I would never I would never want to [01:04:10] just move on from my practice. I love it so much and the team, I love working with them. [01:04:15] So it’s a hard thing, isn’t it? It’s a hard thing to know what to do for the best longer term. Really [01:04:20] haven’t really figured it all out yet, but I’m just very happy where I am now because it [01:04:25] just works a joy. And that’s that’s a privilege.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So important. [01:04:30] Let’s get on to the darker part of the pod. And you already discussed one [01:04:35] unhappy patient. But but if we’re talking errors, what errors [01:04:40] come to mind? Clinical errors.

Amber Aplin: Yeah I made I don’t know. One [01:04:45] that stands out was about, I don’t know, 6 or 7 years ago. [01:04:50] Um, and a patient walked in and she’s got a huge midline diastema, [01:04:55] and I couldn’t take my eyes off it. You know, just drawn to it all the time. And I said straight away to [01:05:00] her, you know, we can really help with that. You know, we can just show you how it can look with a bit of composite [01:05:05] bonding to the middle of it. And and she was horrified. And I just thought, oh, what [01:05:10] have I done? This poor lady. And she, she said, I like I like the [01:05:15] way my teeth look. And so terrible, horrible, horrible [01:05:20] person to do that. So I learnt very quickly and again through I think through actually that [01:05:25] training you learn really find out what the patient finds a concern, not what we [01:05:30] think is a concern. So I learned that really quickly from that. And I felt [01:05:35] awful afterwards. And I still see this lady and I still remember every now and again when I see her. My [01:05:40] mistake. Um, so yeah, learning that really quickly find out what the patients are [01:05:45] concerned about and not what we think.

Payman Langroudi: So do you ask [01:05:50] specifically? Ask?

Amber Aplin: Yeah, I do, um, I kind of use the [01:05:55] kind of 20 year kind of, you know, question or phrase, you know, say, [01:06:00] say when you’re kind of in your 70s or 80s, how do you want your teeth to look, feel [01:06:05] and function what’s important for you. You know, and and they always say, well, when I keep my teeth, [01:06:10] I want to have them for life. You know, and so. Well, we can help we can help you with that. You know, this is [01:06:15] what we need to do if you want to do that, basically. So it’s not just where we are now, it’s where we are in the future. [01:06:20] That’s I think, what’s important.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re saying that what the patient who [01:06:25] let’s say that patient. The patient, um, if she doesn’t mention the diastema in that [01:06:30] question, you don’t bring it up.

Amber Aplin: No, not at all.

Payman Langroudi: But if she does say I want them to look nice, then you do that. [01:06:35]

Amber Aplin: If no, I would say what? No, I’d say, what is it about your teeth you don’t like? If that was the thing, you know. And do [01:06:40] a photo, perhaps show on the screen and get her to show me exactly what it is. Because it could be a little [01:06:45] stain further back and miss the obvious thing in the middle of it. Yeah. So you’re always [01:06:50] patient led.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the brand, the gentle touch. Because I bang on [01:06:55] in this podcast about gentle dentistry. Yeah. Is it. Did you inherit that or did you, [01:07:00] did you?

Amber Aplin: You know what?

Payman Langroudi: Name it.

Amber Aplin: I don’t love the name. I don’t love the name, but I inherited [01:07:05] it when I bought it and.

Payman Langroudi: I love the name.

Amber Aplin: I [01:07:10] mean, it could be a massage parlour. It could be kind of.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:07:15] hadn’t thought of that gentle touch, but we’ve got one [01:07:20] of our big users. Gentle Dental. Oh, yeah, but but I don’t know, man. I think we [01:07:25] forget when we’re in it. We forget how scary dentistry is. And I just think it’s the lowest [01:07:30] hanging fruit of all is we’re good with nervous patients. It’s [01:07:35] so obvious to me, you know, like half the population is scared.

Amber Aplin: I hate them, though. I hate nervous [01:07:40] patients. Oh, yeah. I find it hard. Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Oh, well, then then you would have.

Amber Aplin: My [01:07:45] colleagues great with it, though. My colleague loves nervous patients. I [01:07:50] refer them to my colleague if they’re nervous. Um, no, I inherited [01:07:55] it and but made it work. So we’re gentle in more ways than one. So our branding is gentle. [01:08:00] You know, we’re subtle in our our kind of we do our aesthetics, you know, all [01:08:05] that kind of thing. But we’re subtle with that. We don’t do in-your-face lip fillers and all [01:08:10] that. It’s subtle, um, gentle to teeth. You know, we only have the guided biofilm [01:08:15] therapy. We don’t do all the everything else. So and obviously with [01:08:20] the biomimetics, we’re a preservative of teeth. We’re. Which is gentle. Really? Um, [01:08:25] yeah. Just gentle in the way we treat people and our.

Payman Langroudi: Could [01:08:30] you don’t tell patients these stories, do you? These are more internal stories.

Amber Aplin: This is it comes [01:08:35] through the brand, the branding that we do and how patients are made to how they feel when they come [01:08:40] through the practice, how they’re made to feel. You know, it’s all about what we do. And everything’s gentle. Everything’s [01:08:45] calm, quiet. Take our time, you know, professional. So [01:08:50] that’s kind of the way we want our patients to feel.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:08:55] are you aware of, you know, like from the. It [01:09:00] sounds like you’re very interested in the patient journey.

Amber Aplin: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So does that patient journey. [01:09:05] Are there specifics, touch points in that patient journey that you you [01:09:10] put in, or do you tell your team, just be really great to everyone you know, like, is [01:09:15] it very general or is it specific. Does does everyone get x, y and Z?

Amber Aplin: Yeah, [01:09:20] I mean, we’ve created this, um, kind of culture kind of culture [01:09:25] guide or culture deck.

Payman Langroudi: So in your team.

Amber Aplin: Yeah, for the whole team. [01:09:30]

Payman Langroudi: So what does it say? Stuff like you just talked about.

Amber Aplin: Yeah. Exactly. Right. So everyone’s acknowledging every single patient [01:09:35] is treated like a human being. You know, there’s no scripts. Actually, we don’t do scripts. We don’t do that because [01:09:40] it might come across as inauthentic. So actually, all of our team members are brilliant people [01:09:45] in their own right. So they’re going to treat people with respect naturally. So they’re always made to [01:09:50] feel like they’re human beings. We don’t let patients walk throughout the practice without someone being with them. So [01:09:55] we’d always escort them everywhere except the kind of bathroom [01:10:00] of obviously, you know. Yeah, but you know what I mean. So there’s always handovers there. Always. This is so [01:10:05] and so when they go into a surgery, it’s always, this is my nurse, this is Gemma here or, you know, [01:10:10] this is Tamsin. So everyone’s treated with dignity, respect. Um, [01:10:15] and it’s like everywhere, you know, it’s patient focussed. So we [01:10:20] listen to their concerns and their goals and we go along at their own pace and the [01:10:25] patients are in control. It’s just a kind of a way to be treated, I suppose. And [01:10:30] this is what we we all do.

Payman Langroudi: But then tactics wise, do [01:10:35] you encourage word of mouth? Do you do you ask patients to recommend friends [01:10:40] to you? Do you ask for reviews? Do you?

Amber Aplin: Yeah, we do actually, to be honest, we [01:10:45] I mean, um, I mean, this is the one of our receptions called Jen. She’ll [01:10:50] put on a day sheet who has Google Gmail. Sorry. So they can obviously do the Google [01:10:55] reviews. Um, so we don’t ask anybody else because it’s a real faff. If you haven’t got the Gmail account, it’s a real [01:11:00] faff doing Google reviews. So we know who to who we can ask. Um, so we try and [01:11:05] ask them if they’ll do us a favour and ask for some feedback. Um, [01:11:10] we yeah, we’ve got little handouts we hand to our great [01:11:15] patients and say, look, we love treating you and we’d be happy to refer one of your friends or family if they’re, you [01:11:20] know, looking for a dentist or something, or.

Payman Langroudi: Is that incentivised [01:11:25] in any direction?

Amber Aplin: No, no, we used to give out vouchers, but not anymore. So. [01:11:30] Yeah, it’s actually all word of mouth. [01:11:35] We don’t really do any advertising at all. We used to do a little bit dabble for a while, but we haven’t done advertising [01:11:40] for a long time.

Payman Langroudi: Do you? I mean, is there a coffee [01:11:45] machine?

Amber Aplin: This is a bit of a debate right now.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Amber Aplin: So I bought [01:11:50] I bought one for, um, for the courses I’m running in the practice. So I bought a machine for the delegates. [01:11:55] Lovely. All singing, all dancing. Coffee machine, which is a prime joy. So we now use [01:12:00] it in our staff room for the the staff. Um, so now we have the chance to offer patients [01:12:05] a coffee. You know, so it’s, um. I don’t know. How do you do that? Have you got any advice for us? [01:12:10]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, definitely hundred percent. Do it. Why not?

Amber Aplin: Before their appointment. What if it’s hot and they can’t finish [01:12:15] it before their appointment?

Payman Langroudi: I mean, look, I’m getting excellent coffee at the [01:12:20] BMW showroom when I take my car for garage. I’m not buying a car. [01:12:25] Yeah, just taking my car for a service. Yeah, it’s a car service area. Yeah. Marvellous. [01:12:30] Brilliant coffee. Excellent coffee. Um, beautiful seating area. [01:12:35] Like, by the time the guys even come over to say hi, I just feel like [01:12:40] I’ve spent 2 or £300 on that. You know, like, I feel it feels good. It feels good. Okay. So [01:12:45] in a place like yours. Why? Why not? I mean, if.

Amber Aplin: They’re going to have a treatment next. So if someone’s working in [01:12:50] their mouth, would they want to drink coffee before that?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. No one minds. No one minds about that.

Amber Aplin: We could try that. [01:12:55]

Payman Langroudi: No, it’s an amazing thing. Yeah, because I, I visited a thousand practices. [01:13:00] I’ve worked in many practices. I go to train a practice. They [01:13:05] say coffee sometimes. Not always, I [01:13:10] say sure. Yeah. Sometimes they’ve been Chris Barad and they’ll say something like, [01:13:15] oh, what kind of coffee? Yeah, I’ll go flat white. Yeah. I expect it to [01:13:20] be terrible. Yeah, but sometimes it’s excellent. Sometimes it’s excellent. I drink this excellent coffee [01:13:25] and I draw all sorts of conclusions. Even though I’m fully into I know everything. [01:13:30] I know there’s no link between your biomimetic dentistry and the quality of your coffee beans. [01:13:35] I know that. Yeah, but even I still drink this coffee thing. These [01:13:40] are good guys. They know what they’re doing. Yeah, they must know. You know, their dentistry if they’ve got their coffee. [01:13:45] Right. And I’m doing it knowing it’s incorrect. So from the patient’s perspective, [01:13:50] I mean, maybe I like coffee too much, but from the patient’s perspective, it’s just another way [01:13:55] of telling the patient it’s brilliant. It’s different to other places.

Amber Aplin: I’m thinking of doing it perhaps in December or something. [01:14:00] A takeaway cup branded, of course. And they have it to go away with after their appointment. This is [01:14:05] have it on us. Um, yeah. We’re working into our workflow somehow.

Payman Langroudi: I also think [01:14:10] that practices don’t have enough humans. You know, when compared to other [01:14:15] situations, you know, there’s it’s almost like we’ve got the very minimum [01:14:20] number of. Of course we do. We’re running a business. Right. You don’t want to pay another salary, extra salary. But [01:14:25] in a situation where it’s you feel so it’s so difficult. I’ve just had [01:14:30] some dentistry done and I hated it so much. But in a situation where the the [01:14:35] customer, the patient feels so scared, then [01:14:40] more people would help and practice seemed to run on the bare minimum. [01:14:45] Um, so my point is, if the coffee machine comes with a human Yeah. [01:14:50] Who has to? I mean, yeah, I don’t mean assigned to the coffee machine, but I’m just saying, if you need a few more people [01:14:55] to to serve coffee and clean up and all that, that’s.

Amber Aplin: A good.

Payman Langroudi: Idea. Those people you know, in those [01:15:00] minutes will also be raising the brand. The brand [01:15:05] of the practice. Yeah. Immeasurably. And and I know people like, uh, [01:15:10] Mike Hesketh and Chris Barry love to measure stuff. Yeah. But I’m sure [01:15:15] they’ll tell you. Right. Some of the most important stuff in dentistry is not measurable.

Amber Aplin: I would agree with that. [01:15:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Amber Aplin: Yeah, that’s a good idea.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. For sure. You should definitely do that.

Amber Aplin: You should have got [01:15:25] more staff. Actually, we have got more than the minimum staff as well because we like to have extra staff around. Um. [01:15:30] It’s important.

Payman Langroudi: What have you done around the sort of career progression part [01:15:35] for the team?

Amber Aplin: The team? We just find out what they’re, what they want to do and support that, [01:15:40] you know?

Payman Langroudi: But if you’ve got a nurse who is really keen. Yeah. Is she going to end up as [01:15:45] practice manager one day? Is that is that the way you think of it?

Amber Aplin: My husband’s actually doing that right now he’s running the practice. [01:15:50] Um, so he’s doing that job right now.

Payman Langroudi: Your husband’s running.

Amber Aplin: The husband’s doing it is he’s ops manager [01:15:55] or practice manager?

Payman Langroudi: Is he a.

Amber Aplin: Dentist? He’s not. No, no, no he’s not. He’s come from military as well. [01:16:00] He’s. Okay. Ex-military.

Payman Langroudi: And is that where you met?

Amber Aplin: Yeah. Yeah. So he [01:16:05] runs a practice for us. He’s brilliant with the staff. Phenomenal. Um, so. Yeah, [01:16:10] which is great to have someone to go to as well, because I can focus on my patients focus. I’m literally [01:16:15] a dentist now. It’s all I do. Dentistry. Nothing else.

Payman Langroudi: So you were doing that [01:16:20] work? I was doing it until your husband came in.

Amber Aplin: When the PM left after.

Payman Langroudi: Lockdown. Okay, okay. [01:16:25]

Amber Aplin: I was doing everything pretty much. I was staying very late and, you know, doing all the wages [01:16:30] and things.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s a great lesson there, isn’t there? Just there. There’s a brilliant lesson. I [01:16:35] mean, with your husband, it’s someone you can fully trust. So it’s kind of even easier. But the idea that, [01:16:40] you know, if you’re having a hard time in practice doing everything, it’s possible [01:16:45] someone else could come and take over some of those responsibilities and do them even better than you.

Amber Aplin: Oh, [01:16:50] far better than me. Yeah, I really wasn’t great. You know, you’ve got to focus on where your skills lie, you know? [01:16:55] So going back to the staff, of course we support them. So we’ve got some nurses that run scanning clinics [01:17:00] and do Invisalign consults. Um, and you know, if [01:17:05] they want to do more, they can. And they’ve got the implant nurses that are really well trained. And we’ve got one nurse [01:17:10] who’s now or two CEOs now as well. So of course there’s progression within the practice [01:17:15] to do a lot more if they want to.

Payman Langroudi: What are you struggling with?

Amber Aplin: Trying [01:17:20] to I’m struggling with promoting why we’re different at the practice, [01:17:25] why our.

Payman Langroudi: Treatments.

Amber Aplin: Are different. Yeah, we can do it 1 to 1 as we go along, of course, but [01:17:30] it’s getting the wider knowledge out there because, as you say, no one knows what’s different about this white [01:17:35] filling, you know? Yeah. No one knows.

Payman Langroudi: It’s my struggle too. I’m in charge of communication [01:17:40] for enlighten. And yeah, it’s a struggle. It’s a struggle, particularly struggle when, [01:17:45] you know, like you’ve tried something, you’ve said something. And you know what I’ve realised? It has to [01:17:50] come down to one statement. You know that your your public not [01:17:55] only will won’t hear more than one statement, they can’t spread more than [01:18:00] one statement between. And what I’ve realised is that, you know, for instance we [01:18:05] we settled on this no ordinary whitening. Yeah, yeah. Although it sounds.

Amber Aplin: Good, I like [01:18:10] that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it sounds good. It’s not a talk trigger. You know, you’re not going to say one dentist is not going to say to another use [01:18:15] enlightened. It’s no ordinary whitening.

Amber Aplin: No.

Payman Langroudi: That’s true. Whereas whereas, uh, the one we had previously [01:18:20] really was a talk trigger and and.

Amber Aplin: What was that.

Payman Langroudi: One guaranteed whitening it was. [01:18:25]

Amber Aplin: I’ve seen that. That’s great.

Payman Langroudi: We had that in 2008. Back then it was a really important.

Amber Aplin: Thing that [01:18:30] true. Did that work? Is that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it has been since 2008.

Amber Aplin: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but [01:18:35] but but you see what my point is this, that if the, if you want word of mouth. Yeah. [01:18:40] And you want word of mouth about the subject.

Amber Aplin: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That you want. And in your case, [01:18:45] it’s we’re doing this new thing and and it’s good for you old thing. Yeah, [01:18:50] exactly. Exactly. It’s good for you. And, um, we’re super excited about [01:18:55] it. Yeah. You have to encapsulate that in a, in a one statement that [01:19:00] people will tell each other. Yeah. And, you know.

Amber Aplin: It’s not just a feeling.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:19:05] I.

Amber Aplin: Know it’s not just it’s not a crown. We don’t do crowns anymore. I mean, you [01:19:10] know what I mean? It’s not just it’s like a thousand steps, 50 or 60 steps [01:19:15] rather than, I don’t know, ten.

Payman Langroudi: Do you love the accuracy of of biomimetics? [01:19:20]

Amber Aplin: I like the way an exactly every single step is the same. So I love [01:19:25] the way it’s so repeatable and predictable. You know, every tooth [01:19:30] is different. Every tooth is a bit of a mystery about how we’re going to solve the problem. [01:19:35] You know, the pathology led. Yeah. Um, so it is interesting for that reason. [01:19:40] Keeps it interesting, but all the steps are the same, so I do love that predictability of [01:19:45] it.

Payman Langroudi: What do you do in the five minutes while you’re waiting for that bomb to mature?

Amber Aplin: You actually can do, um, [01:19:50] if you go to, you know, a deep margin elevation, you can do the DME deep [01:19:55] part. You can do the little thin resin coat. So thin flowable [01:20:00] composite over the whole dentine surface. Um, or if it’s a class five restoration, [01:20:05] like a buckle, I would just do notes for five minutes because you can’t do anything else apart from have [01:20:10] to sit and wait. So yeah, I just couldn’t do my notes and tell the patient.

Payman Langroudi: The dam is still [01:20:15] on. The patient can’t. You can’t talk to the patient.

Amber Aplin: I say, look, I’ll just give you some time for [01:20:20] the for the bond to really mature. Um, have a rest, you know, can half close your mouth a little bit. I’ll be [01:20:25] over here doing notes and keep it really relaxed and keep it chill.

Payman Langroudi: Seems [01:20:30] so obvious.

Amber Aplin: So it’s quite good. It’s very relaxed. And I like that as well, you [01:20:35] know.

Payman Langroudi: Are you going to teach more? How much have you taught so far?

Amber Aplin: I’ve one [01:20:40] course so far in September, and I loved it, because you’re never going to know until you try it, right?

Payman Langroudi: Teaching [01:20:45] is fun.

Amber Aplin: It’s so good.

Payman Langroudi: And the first time is the hardest as well. You’ll find you’ll find it easier and easier [01:20:50] as you go.

Amber Aplin: I like about it as you have to know your stuff. You have to go back to the books, go back to [01:20:55] the papers again, and really make sure you can explain everything.

Payman Langroudi: To in case some clever [01:21:00] dick says something like quotes, a paper you don’t know or something.

Amber Aplin: You know it. You know how to do the protocols. [01:21:05]

Payman Langroudi: As a teacher, you’ve got.

Amber Aplin: To explain it, you know? So, um, I you know, I love that the next [01:21:10] one is in January, so.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Really.

Amber Aplin: So just for right now, it’s just the, um, I [01:21:15] call it intro or the level one, you know, for therapists and dentists for the direct composite [01:21:20] restorations. Um, however, dentists are asking me to do the level two [01:21:25] now, which is onlays overlays and semi-direct restorations. So I’ve got a [01:21:30] request for that for next year, but it’s quite a lot to do. So I’m not sure if I want to do it next year or not, whether [01:21:35] to defer another year. There’s quite a lot going on.

Payman Langroudi: Are you finding therapists [01:21:40] are disproportionately working on. Yeah.

Amber Aplin: Loads of therapists, which [01:21:45] is great. It’s great for them. Therapists and owners. Owners want to see [01:21:50] how it’s done because we.

Payman Langroudi: Also do go into that then.

Amber Aplin: So the first day is actually, [01:21:55] um, a theory, obviously hands on with real teeth. They see a real cracks, [01:22:00] real teeth in extracted teeth. And the caries dye obviously will work.

Payman Langroudi: Of.

Amber Aplin: Course. So that’s [01:22:05] really great. And then you just first the first half is getting rid of the caries and cracks and [01:22:10] you know the right way of doing that. And then the second half of the day is restoring it, doing [01:22:15] all the IDs resin Co and the composite. And then we [01:22:20] and also photography’s next day is a bit of photography. And then we also [01:22:25] shadow the therapists doing a therapist led care appointment and [01:22:30] also a restoration as well. And dentists will watch me doing it with microscope and a big screen [01:22:35] and thing.

Payman Langroudi: So this is all in Kelso.

Amber Aplin: It’s all in my practice. That’s the same building. So the training centre in one half [01:22:40] and the building is in the other half, the practice is the other half. So I can do both in one building. [01:22:45]

Payman Langroudi: So people I mean, do you get people travelling?

Amber Aplin: Yeah. [01:22:50] Yeah. From Exeter and Essex.

Payman Langroudi: Exeter.

Amber Aplin: All this [01:22:55] people travel. They don’t come from the local practices at the moment. They [01:23:00] travel more I suppose. Um a lot of therapists are coming along. So. Yeah, that’s [01:23:05] all good.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s a two day course.

Amber Aplin: Two day course all day and a half. They finish it by about 3:00 the next [01:23:10] day.

Payman Langroudi: Do you do like a social.

Amber Aplin: Yeah. That night. Yeah. Local restaurant and.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent. [01:23:15]

Amber Aplin: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent. I’ve really enjoyed it. Um, learning from you. Um, [01:23:20] we kind of end with the same sort of quick fire questions. What comes to mind if I [01:23:25] say best education? You’ve had best lecture. You’ve seen.

Amber Aplin: It’s got to be the course in Glasgow. [01:23:30]

Payman Langroudi: Oh yeah.

Amber Aplin: Yeah. Life changing game changing course.

Payman Langroudi: What about your favourite [01:23:35] resource? Dental resource book. Website? Social media. Which one?

Amber Aplin: Social [01:23:40] media.

Payman Langroudi: From what accounts that you.

Amber Aplin: Are going to.

Payman Langroudi: Learn.

Amber Aplin: From [01:23:45] the greats. So the almonds. Well David almonds, the son who’s [01:23:50] doing everything. And Peter Farkas um, yeah. Just all [01:23:55] those kind of biometric dentists I guess, or a whole range, I suppose. But it’s always going to be [01:24:00] Instagram pretty much for that. Yeah, I like to zone in and [01:24:05] check everything out and just make sure you’re doing everything right yourself. Just it’s almost like reinforcing your [01:24:10] if you’re doing things right.

Payman Langroudi: If you had all the time and all the money in the world, what’s the course you’re desperate to go on? [01:24:15]

Amber Aplin: I, um, I think for some point soon I want to do [01:24:20] either or both. Um, Pascal Mani, um, going train with him for a [01:24:25] while. And also Peter Farkas phenomenal dentist [01:24:30] as well. So just again, more, I suppose more. Watching someone’s clinic [01:24:35] is quite useful. Watching how they work their workflows and things is really what I want to go and see now, because it’s [01:24:40] really great seeing Davies practice. Yeah, that’s really great.

Payman Langroudi: Have you looked at small stories as [01:24:45] well?

Amber Aplin: Yeah. That’s phenomenal.

Payman Langroudi: What an amazing sort of thought process. Those guys [01:24:50] are.

Amber Aplin: Phenomenal. I love what they do.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, okay. Final questions. [01:24:55] It’s a fantasy dinner party. Question. Three guests, dead or alive, [01:25:00] who would you have?

Amber Aplin: So I think Margaret [01:25:05] Thatcher would be very interesting. I really think a lot of her. She’s great. [01:25:10] She didn’t care what anyone thought. Stuck to her guns.

Payman Langroudi: You arrived in the UK [01:25:15] five years old in 1979.

Amber Aplin: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Me too. Six of six. Gosh. [01:25:20] The winter of discontent. It was really. Yeah. I mean, I remember getting [01:25:25] here thinking, what the hell place is. So you were a little bit. I was six, I was six. [01:25:30] There was. There was a general strike. Everyone was on strike. The rubbish [01:25:35] people said it was rubbish piled up everywhere. That’s right. The guys, the gravediggers were on strike [01:25:40] like everyone was on strike. And, um, it was Labour, you [01:25:45] know. It was. It was. Callaghan was the Prime Minister back then and Thatcher was, was the prospective. [01:25:50] Okay. You know, trying to trying to, trying to win. Um, [01:25:55] but then do you remember her as a child. Yeah. So [01:26:00] she was harsh at the time, if you remember. Did you like that? Yeah.

Amber Aplin: It’s more respect [01:26:05] for her, you know, and going for what she believes in. Yeah. And not listening to doubters and [01:26:10] staying different.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right. Actually, that’s that’s what’s missing right now. Yeah. Isn’t it? [01:26:15] It feels. It feels like people. People, politicians now they almost look at the market. [01:26:20] They look at they look at the and the votes. The electorate as a market. Yeah. Yeah. They think market’s [01:26:25] swinging this way so they’ll switch. Whereas Thatcher seemed to like have her ideology whether [01:26:30] you liked it or not. She was following a particular thought process that turned out [01:26:35] to be right, I guess in the end.

Amber Aplin: Exactly. No, I thought she was brilliant. Um, also, I suppose [01:26:40] my my my grandma and grandpa because I didn’t really know my grandpa at all. Didn’t meet him and my [01:26:45] mom’s side and my grandma. She died when I was about maybe 16 or 17, so I didn’t really know her [01:26:50] very well as an as a grown up. So I’d love to have.

Payman Langroudi: Both your mom’s parents.

Amber Aplin: Yeah, I’d love to kind [01:26:55] of have them again around a dinner table. It’d be quite cool.

Payman Langroudi: Nice. Final [01:27:00] question. It’s a deathbed question. Yeah. Three pieces of advice.

Amber Aplin: Lots [01:27:05] of advice. Because I’ve actually, you know, I’ve had had cancer a couple of years ago [01:27:10] and things. And it really makes you look at what’s important in life. It really makes you look. [01:27:15] So before that, I was really happy in loving life. And but I didn’t really, I suppose, know the true [01:27:20] value of life. So I’ve got loads of advice for this one. Um, I [01:27:25] think it’s the small things in life that really appreciate [01:27:30] small things like going for a walk, birdsong, sunrises, sunsets, [01:27:35] just very small things. Really appreciate them. Invest in yourself. [01:27:40] Keep learning. Keep investing in yourself for the longer term. Um, [01:27:45] just be kind. Be kind. That’s such a simple [01:27:50] thing to do. But not everyone does that. Um, and. [01:27:55] What else? There’s [01:28:00] just.

Payman Langroudi: The experience of.

Amber Aplin: Having the best version of yourself, you know, just be the best [01:28:05] version of yourself.

Payman Langroudi: Experience having cancer. So when you say the small things, is that did that come from [01:28:10] there, where your world suddenly turned upside down and then, yeah, even a simple thing like taking a walk [01:28:15] doesn’t feel right.

Amber Aplin: Yes. Because for a while when you’re first diagnosed, you don’t know if you’re going to survive for, [01:28:20] you know, two months or two years. You just don’t know until the tests come back. So for [01:28:25] that period, you’re really soul searching, like what is important for me right now. And [01:28:30] it’s of course, family. You know, how old.

Payman Langroudi: Were your kids? Just a couple of years ago.

Amber Aplin: Yeah, a couple of years ago. So it was back [01:28:35] in 2023. So it was spring. 23 kids [01:28:40] were. 18 and 16 and 14. [01:28:45] Yeah. But you know, I think as a parent you just [01:28:50] trivialise it. You know, you don’t say you don’t tell them the whole truth. Of course you [01:28:55] say you’re unwell for a while. They know what cancer is. But of course my little boy lost. Oh it’s sad. A friend of mine [01:29:00] died of it. The same thing and same age as his good friend, you know. And [01:29:05] so it’s really sad for him because he thought that was happening to me as well. And of course, it could have happened to me, [01:29:10] and it was a possibility at the time. So I went through all the operations and then had chemo. [01:29:15] When was that again? Forget. But you know, I didn’t really that wasn’t a [01:29:20] a difficult time for me, as I say that with It’s. There’s [01:29:25] truth to that. I kind of worked normally. I didn’t let deter me from my life at all. Didn’t stop me doing my [01:29:30] work. I still did more study. I did the almonds the year long course during [01:29:35] my chemo radiotherapy. I didn’t really kind of stop for [01:29:40] a minute. I didn’t really want to. I loved what I was doing, so I wanted to focus on that. I loved caring [01:29:45] for my patients still. Probably some distraction as well, I would say. But I loved to keep [01:29:50] doing what my day to day job was still important to me at that time, but [01:29:55] still made you kind of soul search as well. At the same time, what’s important? This is where I’m really keen [01:30:00] to do more now. This has given me a new zest for life. I think this is where the training has come from [01:30:05] because I want to just do more. I want to kind of help people, help dentists, help therapists, [01:30:10] help owners with therapist led care. You know, it’s all kind of I think stem [01:30:15] from that. I would say I would never have gone to America for a week. Right? But [01:30:20] I would never. I’m so glad to have done that.

Payman Langroudi: A funny thing, you [01:30:25] know, that. Things you might not have done. And why not? Like, why wouldn’t you have gone to America? [01:30:30] There’s no reason for it. You just kind of script yourself into into the life that you’ve [01:30:35] got in a way, don’t you?

Amber Aplin: You just think, well, I’m busy. You know, you just think your life’s too busy. But you’ve [01:30:40] got to just make time for these things and. And stay curious, stay learning. Do [01:30:45] things you wouldn’t normally do. I wouldn’t normally come on a podcast. You know, this kind of thing is my [01:30:50] the new me, you know? So, um. Nah, it’s all good. [01:30:55]

Payman Langroudi: And your kids, you said 18 at the time. So is he in university? [01:31:00] She.

Amber Aplin: Matilda? Um, she. No, she was at uni. Didn’t get on with uni at [01:31:05] all. Didn’t like it. So she lived in Edinburgh for a while and she’s now just [01:31:10] doing a college course for facial things I think scarring and things. She’s [01:31:15] going to Australia for a few months in December, which would be good. And then she’ll come back, probably [01:31:20] London, I suppose, and and find a job after that at some point.

Payman Langroudi: And do you want your I mean, have you had the conversation [01:31:25] with any of your kids about being a dentist? No.

Amber Aplin: No, no. I mean, I love it, but it’s [01:31:30] I always it’s just whatever they want to do and they’ve never mentioned it at all. They haven’t really until [01:31:35] it hasn’t really old.

Payman Langroudi: Are the other.

Amber Aplin: Two. Um, now they’re now 18 and 16. [01:31:40] Yeah. Matilda and the little one have had were really badly. Had ADHD [01:31:45] but diagnosed very late. So she was 17 when it was diagnosed. So she went through, um, [01:31:50] school not being understood really. And she’s always kind of troublemaker or that [01:31:55] kind of thing, but she just wasn’t understood. So super bright, but just couldn’t really realise that [01:32:00] academic side to her. So that never is on the cards anyway for for her [01:32:05] middle child. He loves the the military actually. So he’s loved doing [01:32:10] CCF at school and wants to go to the Marines. So he’s just doing a police degree now to get enough [01:32:15] points to do that. And my little one, he is um, yeah, quite a character. [01:32:20] He loves socialising. He wants to be an entrepreneur of some kind.

Payman Langroudi: But he’ll [01:32:25] be the billionaire.

Amber Aplin: He’ll be the billionaire. That’s. That’s hope.

Payman Langroudi: So in this journey [01:32:30] of, like doing everything that you’ve done, some, some might say you’ve sort [01:32:35] of got it all. Would you say you’ve been sort of super successful [01:32:40] at that or.

Amber Aplin: I feel very fortunate and very lucky. Privileged.

Payman Langroudi: Let [01:32:45] me put it a different way. You know, I say give a piece of advice, give a piece of advice about being something [01:32:50] that you wish you had done rather than what you did do. Yeah. Like it’s like [01:32:55] some people say, oh, I wish I was less risk averse. That’s you know that. Do you wish [01:33:00] you were what?

Amber Aplin: Um, I think my biggest thing I’m holding back right now is being too [01:33:05] much of a perfectionist. It sounds like a very, very typical answer, and I apologise for that. Um, [01:33:10] but I’m working very late right now, doing letters for patients with photographs on it, you know, arrows [01:33:15] and just. I just feel I’m giving too much of my personal time [01:33:20] right now, and I just try and cut down my admin somehow, but I’m finding it hard to find a way [01:33:25] to do that. Um, so, uh, you know, it [01:33:30] comes from a place of love. I love what I do, and I want to get patients to understand their issues and things or their [01:33:35] teeth problems. But I can’t be staying until half eight at night or 9:00, you know, doing. [01:33:40]

Payman Langroudi: No.

Amber Aplin: Writing to patients and things. It’s a bit over the top, I think. I don’t work full [01:33:45] time. I do three days a week, so it’s not too bad.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s just a case of like a recorder [01:33:50] while you’re on the running machine, or I guess you’re not on the running machine.

Amber Aplin: You should get a running [01:33:55] machine.

Payman Langroudi: Go out. You’ve got wonderful countryside there.

Amber Aplin: I [01:34:00] need to do more of that, actually, um.

Payman Langroudi: A voice recorder, anyway. You know what I mean?

Amber Aplin: I [01:34:05] just use AI. I mean, I use the clinical notes, which are AI, and then stick it into AI and form [01:34:10] a letter. It doesn’t take that much time, but I still want to add a photo in and annotate that. [01:34:15] Yeah, I want to do more, more, more social media stuff. With what?

Payman Langroudi: You’re [01:34:20] too hard on yourself.

Amber Aplin: Ah, I just I can’t let go. I think just to. [01:34:25] I can’t let go. It’s really weird. I can let go because my staff have got complete autonomy and [01:34:30] I trust them completely. So I’m not controlling in the slightest. But I think for myself, I’m quite controlling [01:34:35] about everything I touch. I want to be 100% perfect. So the courses I run, I want to be [01:34:40] a best experience for the delegates. I want to do really great handouts for them. You know, the booklet [01:34:45] for them is really great, you know what I mean? I just, I can’t do anything less than [01:34:50] the very best that I can do, I guess. So it’s probably holding back a little bit because, for example, [01:34:55] the new course I want to run, there’s a lot of work to be the level [01:35:00] I want it to be at.

Payman Langroudi: The thing with courses is that the more you care, the less kind of profitable [01:35:05] it is.

Amber Aplin: It’s not for money either.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not doing it for money, but it is. It ends up costing [01:35:10] to do, to do the things you want to do. Um, that’s.

Amber Aplin: My life, though. Your say, [01:35:15] I’m not very good at business because everything is there for the patients and the staff and, you know. [01:35:20] So.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Amazing. So lovely to meet you. Thanks. Thanks for coming all the way from Scotland [01:35:25] for this.

Amber Aplin: Well, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it and really enjoyed it as well.

[VOICE: This [01:35:30] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where [01:35:35] you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:35:40] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [01:35:45]

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. If you got this far, you must have listened [01:35:50] to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through [01:35:55] and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some [01:36:00] value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And [01:36:05] if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so [01:36:10] so so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get to go [00:00:10] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:15] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:00:20]

Payman Langroudi: This podcast comes to you from Enlighten Enlightens, an advanced [00:00:25] teeth whitening system that guarantees results on every single patient. We’ve treated hundreds [00:00:30] of thousands of patients now and have a really clear understanding of what it takes to get every [00:00:35] patient to that delighted state that we want to get to. If you want to understand teeth whitening [00:00:40] in much further detail, join us for online training only takes an hour completely free. [00:00:45] Even if you never use enlighten as a whitening system, you’ll learn loads and loads about whitening, [00:00:50] how to talk about it, how to involve your teams. Join us enlighten online training comm. [00:00:55] It gives me great pleasure to welcome Doctor Pavan Minhaj onto the pod. It’s [00:01:00] been a while that I’ve been asking you to come. Um, Payman is now a [00:01:05] specialist periodontist. Um, also involved in implants and kind of [00:01:10] a big way. Um, just finished your training.

Payvand Menhadji: Just finished September, so we’re [00:01:15] in end of October now. I’m a baby specialist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And you’ve got a baby coming [00:01:20] as well?

Payvand Menhadji: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: How many weeks?

Payvand Menhadji: So 30 weeks. I’m 30 weeks. Ten weeks.

Payman Langroudi: Time. [00:01:25]

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: A lot going on for you, huh?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Lot going on. I think back [00:01:30] to years in my life where it was like that. We, I think we started the company, [00:01:35] moved house and got married in the same year.

Payvand Menhadji: Amazing. [00:01:40]

Payman Langroudi: And then other times when kids came along and it’s funny, you don’t really realise what you’re [00:01:45] achieving until many years later when you look back on it and you think, bloody [00:01:50] hell, I did all of that at the same time.

Payvand Menhadji: That was a tough year. Exactly. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:01:55] because you’re so busy you can’t even, you know, see the wood for the trees?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. You have no time to [00:02:00] reflect. Really? I’ve definitely felt that this year.

Payman Langroudi: How are you feeling about becoming a mother?

Payvand Menhadji: Excited, [00:02:05] to be honest. So I’m 34. Um, I [00:02:10] always wanted to have children, but I was. I’ve always been studying, you know, putting [00:02:15] kind of dentistry first. And I said to my husband, you know, when’s [00:02:20] the right time? And we said, okay, I’m coming to [00:02:25] the end of my training, but I didn’t think it would happen so soon. So so it happened [00:02:30] really fast. And then throughout my whole finals from April. [00:02:35] Sorry. From. Yeah. From April, May till now I’ve just been pregnant [00:02:40] sitting exams. So it’s been really tough.

Payman Langroudi: But but the I [00:02:45] don’t know the feeling of trepidation that it must be to be a mother in [00:02:50] waiting. I remember being a father about this time. I remember thinking, shit, man, like, what [00:02:55] is going to happen next? Yeah. You’re right. No one teaches you, right?

Payvand Menhadji: I am.

Payman Langroudi: Scared. For mother, it’s even [00:03:00] more.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, do you reflect on the fact that you’ve, like. Now, going forward, [00:03:05] you’ve lost all autonomy. You’ve [00:03:10] got ten weeks left, man. Like that’s it. After that.

Payvand Menhadji: You know, when you say it like [00:03:15] that, I’m fucked. Excuse me, I shouldn’t swear. Um, yeah. I [00:03:20] haven’t really sat down to think about it. I think I’ve been so busy. Yeah, but I’m slowing [00:03:25] down work next month, and I think that’s when it will really hit me that, okay, I’m going to become [00:03:30] a mother. I think feeling I’m having a baby girl. Okay. Yeah. [00:03:35] Amazing. So feeling her kick me and stuff. Um, especially during work, makes [00:03:40] it feel very real. Yeah. Um, but no, I’m really excited. I think it [00:03:45] will be a hard juggling act. I don’t know how I’ll cope.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll just think you’re going to be back [00:03:50] full time or part time or what?

Payvand Menhadji: The plan is to work four days a week. Um. [00:03:55] She says, you know, let’s see how it goes. Right. But the plan is to work four days a week for [00:04:00] six months. Um, get my mum to help out my husband. Um, see how how [00:04:05] we get on. Really?

Payman Langroudi: I mean, in many ways, I’m trying to persuade my daughter, my 15 year old, to [00:04:10] look at dentistry now. And in many ways, I think it really suits a mother. [00:04:15] Right. I think so. And, I don’t know, four days seems like a lot.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. [00:04:20] I just I still want to be really good at my craft. I feel like I’ve got to a stage where [00:04:25] now’s the time for me to actually put in the work. You know, I’ve just finished [00:04:30] my training. I’m building a name for myself, and so I don’t want to lose that skill. [00:04:35] That’s my only. That’s.

Payman Langroudi: You reckon if you did three days a week, you’d lose that skill? I mean.

Payvand Menhadji: No, you’re right. [00:04:40] I’ve just got some good jobs at the moment. I don’t want to give them up. That’s the truth. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Did you get [00:04:45] those jobs after you qualified or during or.

Payvand Menhadji: Um, two of them. [00:04:50] I’ve. I’ve kept on since, like, first year of perio training [00:04:55] and then two of them I’ve got like later on in perio training through recommendation [00:05:00] and people just realising that I’m okay at what I do. So [00:05:05] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Can you tell me the story of wanting to become a specialist and [00:05:10] when you track it back? Yeah. How how how long ago did you realise [00:05:15] you want to become a specialist? Yeah.

Payvand Menhadji: So I think dental school. I didn’t ever [00:05:20] think I’d be a specialist. I just wanted to be a dentist. Yeah. You know, it seemed like a [00:05:25] good work life balance. Um, and then it was my PhD year, actually, where I had two [00:05:30] trainers. One of them was placing loads of implants. Victor Keyhani.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Payvand Menhadji: He [00:05:35] does the ace courses. I know, nice. Um. And Sabina, um, [00:05:40] she’s the partner at the practice, so I had two really good trainers. [00:05:45] And Victor actually lived down my road in Stanmore. So we became very close family, friends. [00:05:50] And he said to me, hey, pay like. To be honest with you, if I redid my whole career, [00:05:55] I’d be a periodontist. And I really respected him. So I thought, okay, [00:06:00] let me let me look into this. Um, so I [00:06:05] shadowed actually at the time when I was like an PhD, um, I [00:06:10] went on a few courses, just, you know, cheap ones, the long deck ones and stuff. Learned [00:06:15] to raise a flap, that kind of thing. Um, and I realised I really [00:06:20] like surgery. So what did I do next? I thought, okay, I need a [00:06:25] hospital year, um, to get really good at extractions and things like that. Still wasn’t sure I’d be [00:06:30] a periodontist, but I knew I wanted to have, like, surgical skill.

Payman Langroudi: Did you? I mean, before you [00:06:35] realised you really like surgery, were you, like the rest of us, a bit worried about surgery?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, exactly. [00:06:40]

Payman Langroudi: So what was the. What was the inflection? Was it just like watching loads of surgeries?

Payvand Menhadji: Cool. Yeah, just watching [00:06:45] Victor place implants. I thought it was really nice, like life changing stuff. Um, he [00:06:50] was. He was really happy performing the implants and the patients were really happy [00:06:55] receiving it. And it just seemed like level expert, you know, which I quite liked. [00:07:00] It’s quite nice to be referred to things that are complicated. I think I like the challenge. Yeah. [00:07:05]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, have you always been a high achiever?

Payvand Menhadji: I’m a big nerd. Yeah, I guess [00:07:10] so.

Payman Langroudi: Because I noticed on your on your. I think it was Instagram. It’s just with honours with honours with honours [00:07:15] all over it. Like.

Payvand Menhadji: You make me sound like such a geek. I [00:07:20] do have a very active social life. But no, I am a nerd. [00:07:25] Yeah, I’m competitive, I guess. Are you. Are you? Yeah. Against. [00:07:30] Against myself. Like, if I set a goal, like I want to do the best. Really? [00:07:35] So I think specialist suits me.

Payman Langroudi: How long ago does that track German [00:07:40] were you compared to seven year old?

Payvand Menhadji: My Iranian mother.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine. [00:07:45]

Payvand Menhadji: Um, yeah. I mean, in sports and things. I [00:07:50] wasn’t too gifted, unfortunately. Um, but yeah, I was always pretty. Pretty high [00:07:55] achieving. And at school. Um. Yeah, I guess it’s always [00:08:00] been around. Yeah. Touchwood. I haven’t failed anything. I nearly failed my driving licence, [00:08:05] but I just passed, so. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So there might be a first time where you feel [00:08:10] like a failure when something goes not your way.

Payvand Menhadji: I’m sure it will happen. I’m [00:08:15] waiting for my downfall.

Payman Langroudi: There’s basically. There’s no way out of life, is there? There’s no way, no [00:08:20] easy way out of life. Even if you’ve had a, let’s call it a blessed life. Yeah, like you have, let’s say, [00:08:25] for the sake of the argument, eventually something will come and get you. It’s a it’s a weird [00:08:30] thing.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, my brother was always top of his class, top of everything. And then it was like, [00:08:35] I don’t know, it was like some sort of Mississippi part two. He’s a doctor that [00:08:40] finally just got him, got to him. He’d never felt anything in his life, suddenly started failing [00:08:45] and he couldn’t believe it himself.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. You know, when you’re. I mean, during [00:08:50] finals, pregnant. I’ll be honest with you, I didn’t study to that usual level that I could. [00:08:55] You know, I was in my first trimester, I was sick, I was exhausted, [00:09:00] I was nauseous, my husband would come home and be like, have you been in bed all day? You know, he could tell. I’d [00:09:05] been like, yeah, just like watching TV. Yeah. And, um, I wasn’t [00:09:10] behaving like myself, so I was scared. I didn’t think I’d fail, but I thought I’d just [00:09:15] scrape a pass. So, um, that’s the most scared I’ve been this.

Payman Langroudi: Year. [00:09:20]

Payvand Menhadji: Anyway. Yeah. It’s great. I, I scraped it. It was a [00:09:25] shock, to be honest. So.

Payman Langroudi: So then the training itself is a, what, three [00:09:30] year program?

Payvand Menhadji: Four years. Part time.

Payman Langroudi: Part time or three years full time? Exactly.

Payvand Menhadji: So the beauty [00:09:35] of kings is you can do it part time and still earn money on the side, essentially to pay for the [00:09:40] course and your mortgage.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know Eleanor? She’s doing.

Payvand Menhadji: Yes, yes. So I work with her.

Payman Langroudi: S1 [00:09:45] Okay.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah yeah.

[BOTH]: Yeah okay. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: So so for years part time. So [00:09:50] how many what was the actual commitment like how often did you have to be in how much homework.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah it’s [00:09:55] it’s a three day. You’ve got a three days. You’ve got to be in two days. You can work in practice. But [00:10:00] honestly it feels like a império. It feels like a full time course.

Payman Langroudi: Like [00:10:05] they give you lots of homework.

Payvand Menhadji: Lots of homework. You’re expected to, you know, show up all [00:10:10] the time, just like the full time is, even on random days.

Payman Langroudi: When you’re not.

Payvand Menhadji: Scheduled to. Yeah, exactly. [00:10:15] They might have something on if you don’t go. You’ve missed out that kind of thing.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Um, [00:10:20] it’s it’s heavy.

Payman Langroudi: In those three days. How much of it is actual clinics [00:10:25] and how much is not.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Um, I would say, I mean, sometimes you can [00:10:30] have three days full clinics. Um, other times it’s two days full clinics. And maybe, like, [00:10:35] there’s always so much to do. Like, I’m thinking back now, we’re always at the hospital doing stuff. [00:10:40] A lot of it’s admin. Yeah. Nhs admin is like, [00:10:45] terrible. Oh my gosh. Um, yeah. A lot of administrative [00:10:50] tasks. Research. You know, part of the dent is you do a [00:10:55] thesis, but because everyone’s so high achieving and I mean that, you [00:11:00] know, some of my friends in my course in my year were pulling out five systematic reviews [00:11:05] a year, which is crazy. I did 1 in 4 years. One [00:11:10] of my friends, Michiko. Yeah, she did, I think 4 or 5 in one year. It’s crazy. So they [00:11:15] work very hard.

Payman Langroudi: And what’s the cost?

Payvand Menhadji: The cost. So it goes up every year. [00:11:20] So when I started in 2019, um, [00:11:25] annually it was 18 K and then it goes up. And so by [00:11:30] the end it was about 21 k. So every year it would go up £1,000 or so. [00:11:35]

Payman Langroudi: And literally you were paying for it by being a dentist the other two days was that is how it works.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Paying [00:11:40] for it by being a dentist. But also it’s people don’t realise it’s a loss of earnings, right. [00:11:45] You know, I think my training costs me like.

Payman Langroudi: If you’re taking loss of earnings into [00:11:50] account, hundreds of thousands.

Payvand Menhadji: Absolutely. And a lot of the time I was thinking, [00:11:55] God, I should have just stayed working as a private GDP. I’d be much happier.

Payman Langroudi: And is [00:12:00] that what you were, a full time private GDP?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. So I did general dentistry up until my third year. [00:12:05] I was still doing veneers and crowns. Admittedly not as well as some other people, [00:12:10] obviously. Skilling. I could see myself getting worse. Um, but then I just went [00:12:15] and focussed my practice to periodontics, basically.

Payman Langroudi: Then [00:12:20] you said you studied dentistry in Liverpool? Yeah. What do you think of Liverpool?

Payvand Menhadji: It [00:12:25] was really fun. It was. You know what? It’s it’s great [00:12:30] for a weekend. Five years was a long time for me. Why? Too small? Yeah. [00:12:35] Too small. It was like the same streets, you know. Without being sounding [00:12:40] like someone from the South. You know, we just have so much [00:12:45] more to do in London. So I got a bit bored up there. Um, but made really [00:12:50] good friends. Found my husband, basically brought him back down.

Payman Langroudi: Not a dentist. [00:12:55]

Payvand Menhadji: He’s a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, he’s a dentist.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, yeah, he likes endo nutter. I know.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:13:00] Liverpool, I love it. I love that town. I love that town.

Payvand Menhadji: It’s really fun.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s quite close to [00:13:05] Manchester. Right. You’ve got that.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. So we used to do like weekend trips to Manchester and every time we [00:13:10] went it was raining so bad.

Payman Langroudi: I love the people there though.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, [00:13:15] people were good. Patients were lovely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Actually, you’re the second Liverpool graduate I’ve had today. [00:13:20] Oh, the guy before you was Liverpool graduate. Really nice. Before that you did biomedical. [00:13:25] Did you say.

Payvand Menhadji: Biochemistry?

Payman Langroudi: Biochemistry.

Payvand Menhadji: A similar thing, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What’s [00:13:30] that like? Um, did you do three years of that?

Payvand Menhadji: Three years of that. So at 18, I kind [00:13:35] of wasn’t sure what I’d want to do. I was good at science. Put biology and chemistry [00:13:40] together. Biochemistry? Yeah. Um, it was the best three years of my life. [00:13:45] Really? That was the best parties, honestly. I made [00:13:50] really good friends. Yeah. Lived out in London.

Payman Langroudi: For the whole three years.

Payvand Menhadji: Whole three years. Central [00:13:55] London. You know, you’re living your best life, basically. They were the golden years. And then [00:14:00] I really wanted to stay on at King’s because I had such a good time. Yeah, but King’s rejected me, so [00:14:05] I went to Liverpool.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so you’ve had some sort of rejection in your life?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, I have, yeah. [00:14:10] Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: So at the end, like, that’s quite a massive commitment, right? I mean [00:14:15] and we know like that’s what I was telling you about my daughter, she’s 15 and people are asking questions like, [00:14:20] who do you want to be. What do you want to be.

Payvand Menhadji: How do you know that age?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but I’m saying from 15 till [00:14:25] today.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve been working at it.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Biochem [00:14:30] such a nerd.

Payman Langroudi: But I’m saying on the day that they awarded you [00:14:35] that speciality. Sort of.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. The graduation is next [00:14:40] summer, actually.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, has it not happened yet? Has it happened yet? There must have been like a feeling. What was the feeling? Relief. How [00:14:45] would you characterise it? Pride. Were you proud of yourself?

Payvand Menhadji: I was.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. It’s [00:14:50] so funny. The motivations in life are so funny. You know, like like, [00:14:55] why does one do what one does?

Payvand Menhadji: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: You know, like, right now, Trump’s looking for a Nobel Peace [00:15:00] Prize. Like, why? Yeah. You know.

Payvand Menhadji: It’s so funny you say that. And I reflect [00:15:05] on this. You try so hard and then you achieve that thing. No one really cares. [00:15:10] It’s for you, you know?

Payman Langroudi: And I even think, like, there’s some scripting in, like, you know, [00:15:15] um, I never really fancied going to Japan for years and [00:15:20] years. I just scripted myself. I don’t want to go to Japan. And now I’m desperate to go to Japan.

Payvand Menhadji: Why do you [00:15:25] think that is?

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know, I’m just saying it’s just scripting. You script yourself in different directions. You convince yourself [00:15:30] you are this cat, and then there’s like a feedback loop because you’ve got something.

Payvand Menhadji: You believe [00:15:35] in it and.

Payman Langroudi: Some form of identity, you.

Payvand Menhadji: Know? Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And and then at the end of it all, [00:15:40] if you really examine it properly, you realise those sliding door moments in your life, like, [00:15:45] I don’t know, my dad said, let’s move to San Francisco when we were seven. Imagine that. It [00:15:50] was this whole other American cat. Exactly.

Payvand Menhadji: You could have taken a different path. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:15:55] And so many things in life are like that. Yeah. How do you feel about that? Do you feel like. [00:16:00] Are you a fatalist or are you, you know, are you do you think like everything’s random or how do you [00:16:05] feel about.

Payvand Menhadji: I think I think I’ve managed I think about [00:16:10] what the next step actually. So I’ve, I’m at a point in my life now where I’ve [00:16:15] kind of achieved, achieved everything I want to so far and [00:16:20] I’m done, you know, which is nice. I don’t think it’s fate. I’ve kind of had [00:16:25] a goal and then I’ve achieved that goal, you know, go to dental school, do perio, have a baby? [00:16:30] But now I’m done. So I don’t know what the next step is, but it’s good to, like, [00:16:35] I’m going to actually relax and my friends and family don’t believe me. They’re like, hey, there’ll be something [00:16:40] else, but I’m going to take a break. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So look, the the the [00:16:45] upside of being this person is very obvious, isn’t it? Yeah. [00:16:50] The downside of it constantly putting pressure on yourself.

Payvand Menhadji: Yes [00:16:55] you’re right. And it’s quite regimented, isn’t it? Um. I’m always doing something, [00:17:00] but I can’t sit still.

Payman Langroudi: But you, like, guilt ridden if you’re not achieving something. [00:17:05]

Payvand Menhadji: I don’t think so. I think I like the challenge. Yeah, I think [00:17:10] that’s what motivates me. I just think, like, especially if somebody says, oh, you can’t do that. And [00:17:15] this at the same time, I’m like, hold my drink, you know.

Payman Langroudi: No, I had I [00:17:20] had no idea on this pod. And I made my daughter listen to that pod. [00:17:25]

Payvand Menhadji: I mean, she’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Because the way I said to my daughter, just count how many times she was [00:17:30] too young at that point to really take it seriously. Yeah, but I but I made a little game for her. So just [00:17:35] count how many times she said, that’s really fun. Yeah. And she’d say stuff like, oh, you know, it was like [00:17:40] seven days a week. But it was really fun. I was really enjoying whatever it was.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. [00:17:45]

Payman Langroudi: What an outlook she’s got.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. I mean, she’s juggling so many hats. Um, her [00:17:50] practice, her kids, her. No, I think she’s an absolute powerhouse. [00:17:55] I’m not like Reena. She’s in another league. Um, yeah. [00:18:00] She’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think you’ll end up in your own practice the way she’s done it?

Payvand Menhadji: No. [00:18:05] I think so. My husband wants to buy a practice where hopefully [00:18:10] things will work out soon.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an endodontist.

Payvand Menhadji: No special interest. Um, [00:18:15] if we couldn’t have two crazy specialists. Too much work. Yeah. And also, like, financial [00:18:20] commitment. Um. Bless him, he supported me a lot as well. Um, so [00:18:25] hopefully he’ll have his practice. Um, he has a partner as well, so [00:18:30] that they can do their own thing. I just want to be good at my craft. I’m not in it for like the. [00:18:35]

Payman Langroudi: Do they have a practice?

Payvand Menhadji: They’re getting one. Hopefully things will work out. Yeah. Next year. Um, [00:18:40] but yeah, I just want to be good at what I do and hopefully yeah, maybe work there, but [00:18:45] maybe continue at the other practices I work at. I just want to be the person who [00:18:50] people refer really hard stuff to because they’re like, actually, I don’t know what to do. That’s [00:18:55] gangster.

Payman Langroudi: Has it started already? I mean, do you have a referring base of Dental? [00:19:00]

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How does that happen? How does like how does the evolution of, you know, not being someone [00:19:05] people refer to. Yeah. And then turn into being someone people think of to refer to.

Payvand Menhadji: Which is really nice [00:19:10] actually. Yeah. I think people talk as well. Um, people talk. So you’ve got [00:19:15] to be careful what you do to your patients. It’s such a small world. Nurses talk [00:19:20] as well. Yeah. You know, I work with so many different nurses and hygienists and you [00:19:25] got to you got to keep keep a good impression to everybody because everyone knows everyone. [00:19:30] You know, that. Um, but I think referrals started just by friends [00:19:35] first. You know, I’ve got loads of mates who are dentists, and then Instagram has kind of blown [00:19:40] up for me as well. People see your work and then they reach out.

Payman Langroudi: You’re getting a lot of patients from Instagram. [00:19:45] Yeah that’s nice.

Payvand Menhadji: From dentists though.

Payman Langroudi: From dentists.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Because [00:19:50] my aim is to appeal to dentists, not to patients. Right. Yeah. No. You know, patients are like, I’ve [00:19:55] got gum disease. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: As a specialist, your customer is the dentist. Exactly [00:20:00] right.

Payvand Menhadji: It’s a hard line not to be like. You want to be professional, but [00:20:05] not cringe. I think it’s difficult.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payvand Menhadji: On social media, you know.

Payman Langroudi: So what [00:20:10] would you say is the difference? I mean, I just had the previous guy as an orthodontist asking me, what’s the difference between [00:20:15] a good periodontist and a periodontist?

Payvand Menhadji: Um, I [00:20:20] think the problem in the UK is a lot of dentists think perio [00:20:25] is really boring and it’s just scaling, right? Gum gardening. But it’s a surgical speciality. [00:20:30] And in other countries in Europe and America and stuff, they [00:20:35] see us as like the best surgeons. But in the UK, because of our training, well, [00:20:40] I think my training was very good actually, because we had some great consultants, [00:20:45] etc. but like it’s just changing that stigma and then showing dentists [00:20:50] like actually this is what we can do. Um, it’s not just cleaning teeth. [00:20:55] I really want to step away from that, actually. Like, I just of course it’s important, but when you [00:21:00] work with such good hygienists as well, you know, you can delegate work and then they send [00:21:05] you work back and you work as a really nice team.

Payman Langroudi: So what’s the answer to my question?

Payvand Menhadji: I’ve [00:21:10] got a baby brain, haven’t I?

Payman Langroudi: Difference between a good and a great periodontist. [00:21:15] So those surgical skills.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, I think great periodontists are surgical skills. [00:21:20] Not being afraid of anything. And good treatment planning.

Payman Langroudi: And you said you’re [00:21:25] kind of area of interest is sort of that mucogingival grafting.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so [00:21:30] tell me about that. I mean, there’s a lot of it. There’s a lot more need for [00:21:35] that than I realised, actually.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. I mean, most of the time it is an elective procedure. [00:21:40] Yeah. Um, you know, patients aren’t going to die if they don’t have it, and the teeth aren’t, [00:21:45] you know, most of the time going to fall out. But, um, maybe it’s because I’m in this [00:21:50] world so much, but I’m seeing so much more of it now. Yeah. Um. So. Yeah. [00:21:55] Gum. Recession surgery. There’s so many different types of ways, um, you know, [00:22:00] tunnelling, coronally, advanced flaps, etc., etc.. So I just think it’s so meticulous [00:22:05] and can be very stressful, actually. I just [00:22:10] love being in that moment. For me, it’s like meditation, honestly.

Payman Langroudi: Go on. What’s like a the [00:22:15] key to it?

Payvand Menhadji: The key to it is, you [00:22:20] know, diagnosis is really important. So, you know, if you understand like the [00:22:25] area the defect really well then you know which surgical technique to [00:22:30] use. I think that’s what’s critical, because sometimes you might do something that, you [00:22:35] know, you didn’t diagnose right and it might, you know, be a shit show.

Payman Langroudi: What do you do? Do you get like a cbct or [00:22:40] something to literally see every bit of it?

Payvand Menhadji: No, it’s more like understanding, [00:22:45] like your limitations. So you can’t grow all the um, so for example, we’ve [00:22:50] got RT one and two and three defects. Do you remember the Miller’s classification? So there’s [00:22:55] a new one.

Payman Langroudi: Oh yes.

Payvand Menhadji: Well it’s not that new 2011. We call it chiro. [00:23:00] So it’s knowing like okay the bone has been lost. We can only grow the gum back [00:23:05] to the level of the bone. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I see.

Payvand Menhadji: I see stuff like that. Um, and then managing patients expectations [00:23:10] from the outset, um, these things are really critical to getting a good result. [00:23:15]

Payman Langroudi: And traditional perio patients, you know, with [00:23:20] them I always think of like, you know, the the patient [00:23:25] changing their behaviour is like 90% of the battle, right?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, [00:23:30] I think the as specialists, we’re lucky because when they’ve come and [00:23:35] kind of paid for a console their game, you know, because somebody already [00:23:40] the dentist has done the soft sell and then I’ve done the hard sell, you know. So [00:23:45] I think most of the time conversion rate is like, I don’t know, nine out of ten. You know, most [00:23:50] people are willing to put in the work and the effort to fix their problem. You know, they’ve [00:23:55] come to that consultation. So I don’t find I’m spending too much time, um, [00:24:00] trying to change behaviour. They’re they’re almost ready. Like the hygienists and dentists have done [00:24:05] an excellent job. And it’s just.

Payman Langroudi: I guess by the time it’s gotten to you, they’ve already taken care of that.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, [00:24:10] exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah, yeah.

Payvand Menhadji: Which is a blessing, really, because.

Payman Langroudi: I had a periodontist [00:24:15] that I used to refer to when I was dentist. And, you know, the great thing about him was like, for instance, my, [00:24:20] my kind of referral would be I want to stick a bridge. Yeah, but [00:24:25] this recession.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I’m not sure whether these teeth can take it or not.

Payvand Menhadji: Yes, [00:24:30] exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Something like that. That would be the classic. The classic. Right. But the great thing about him [00:24:35] is he would send the patient back with a full treatment plan. Yeah.

Payvand Menhadji: Restorative.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Even [00:24:40] the other side. Yeah. Like. And the patient would go, like I’m thinking, will he or won’t [00:24:45] he go ahead with this bridge. Will I, will I be able to and come back with two other crowns and all that?

Payvand Menhadji: Absolutely. [00:24:50]

Payman Langroudi: And that’s because he was good at restorative. And I don’t know if you ever came.

Payvand Menhadji: I have heard of him. Yes. [00:24:55] He was at guy’s. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, I think one of my implant consultants [00:25:00] works with him. Care of Andy?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s right, that’s right, that’s [00:25:05] right.

Payvand Menhadji: Um, yeah, exactly. So, you know, our exams are restorative as [00:25:10] well. So if you give back the dentist, more work to do. Yeah. [00:25:15] They’re going to keep referring to you.

Payman Langroudi: And the patients. Like going to respect your opinion [00:25:20] more than the dentist because you’re the together. You’re the clever specialist, right? So, like, [00:25:25] you know what I mean? That’s. That’s the position you’re in.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, so, no, I [00:25:30] think it’s that is a really good point. And we do definitely do that. We get more work for the dentist, [00:25:35] um, whether they like it or not. Really? Yeah. [00:25:40]

Payman Langroudi: Have you come across patients where, um. I mean, I mean, there must these [00:25:45] must be the ones you come across where for no reason, you can’t see why it’s not working. [00:25:50] Perio treatment isn’t working. It goes down. I kind of we kind of blame genetics. Right. Yeah. [00:25:55]

Payvand Menhadji: It’s, I think, to be honest, with good perio treatment. [00:26:00] Because now what we do is. Yeah, we do. Step one is kind of risk factors [00:26:05] supragingival cleaning. Step two is the nonsurgical phase. So we know we’ll [00:26:10] have residual pockets. So the studies say we have about 74% residual pockets on [00:26:15] average. So we’ve resolved 74%. So there’s some remaining. And then we [00:26:20] enter the surgical phase. So if you know, you could either do non-surgical [00:26:25] again, but if you do the surgical phase, then you’re eliminating those pockets and then you’ve [00:26:30] made the patient stable. So it’s never the case of.

Payman Langroudi: Something that [00:26:35] runs away.

Payvand Menhadji: Exactly. Which I think at Liverpool when I was a student, [00:26:40] I thought, oh, we’re just going round in circles. I used to make up my pocket charts [00:26:45] and like, really hate perio, but now I’ve realised, you know, you can stabilise [00:26:50] a perio patient and that is the whole point. So if you do it properly, you know. Yeah, [00:26:55] we’re not curing them but they’re stabilised. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk implants [00:27:00] from the peri periodontists perspective. So you must as a periodontist you must bring something [00:27:05] to that. Right, to that, to that discussion. I mean yeah. Are we, are we, are we talking sort of in [00:27:10] the anterior zone. You’re managing the soft, the pink so that it all looks natural, [00:27:15] better than the next guy who’s not a periodontist who doesn’t, you know.

Payvand Menhadji: I mean, I have.

Payman Langroudi: To get better. I mean. [00:27:20]

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, I have to be honest. I’m still a baby specialist, I think. Anterior zone [00:27:25] is. I think the more you know, the more you know your limitations. [00:27:30] And I think a lot of gdp’s no disrespect to GDPs. You know, they’re happy [00:27:35] to place loads of implants in the anterior zone. They don’t think of any hard or soft tissue grafting [00:27:40] and it looks shit. Um, but, you know, we we pick our cases [00:27:45] so carefully, and if it’s out of my scope, you know, I’ll team up with somebody like a [00:27:50] mentor or I’ll refer on because I don’t think I’m kind of good enough to do that yet. [00:27:55] Um, anterior zone is very complicated. Yeah. Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And at the higher [00:28:00] level. Right. I mean, where you’ve got patients paying loads of money, it’s got to be right.

Payvand Menhadji: Absolutely. [00:28:05] High smile line. You know, thin gingiva. Yeah. You got to do something about [00:28:10] it.

Payman Langroudi: In that situation. Would you handle that right now yourself or you wouldn’t you refer refer. [00:28:15]

Payvand Menhadji: I’m definitely not there yet in terms of implants, anterior zone simple implants, [00:28:20] back teeth, etc. for sure. My plan is after maternity [00:28:25] leave to really take that on. Our training at guy’s was was good, but [00:28:30] it wasn’t. I think we need more experience, you know? [00:28:35]

Payman Langroudi: Implant experience.

Payvand Menhadji: Implant experience. Yeah, we we placed a lot. [00:28:40] But it’s it’s just there’s so much to it. It’s a whole nother discipline in my opinion. [00:28:45] So to say I’m amazing at it would be a lie. You know, I’ve got a lot to learn.

Payman Langroudi: Do [00:28:50] you plan to do you plan to move in that direction specifically?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. I want my work to be [00:28:55] 50%, 50% implants. I think that’s what would make me happy. I want [00:29:00] to kind of stop the non-surgical side.

Payman Langroudi: Well, I find implantology really is an all or [00:29:05] nothing kind of thing.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So and it goes on and [00:29:10] on and on. It’s like. It’s not like. It’s just like it keeps evolving. Exactly.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And [00:29:15] like I say, the more you learn, the more you realise. Bloody hell, there’s so much to know. But [00:29:20] when people do, you know these weekend courses, you just think what on earth [00:29:25] like?

Payman Langroudi: I guess it’s the beginning of the journey sometimes.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, yeah. But I think maybe [00:29:30] because I’ve been down this academic specialist route, [00:29:35] I’m less kind of confident to just get [00:29:40] stuck in. But I think I pick everything carefully. I’m more risk averse, I [00:29:45] guess. I only perform like a surgery if I know I’m going to execute it really well. [00:29:50] You know what I mean?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payvand Menhadji: But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, the first time you do anything [00:29:55] new, you’re not going to perform it really well, are you? Yeah, but.

Payvand Menhadji: You have, like, plan B and C maybe your [00:30:00] mentor there. Right. Yeah. Whereas some people, I think they just go in blind. Implant in [00:30:05] the sinus.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes the best dentist though. Yeah. Because they figure it out like they [00:30:10] figured out differently to you, you know. Yeah. You’re right.

Payvand Menhadji: You’re right, you’re right. And some people, [00:30:15] you know, in my class, people say I’m quite ballsy. Like, I’m the, like, crazy one. And I’m [00:30:20] thinking GDPs are way crazier than I am, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Do you end up in sort of [00:30:25] the medico legal world as well?

Payvand Menhadji: Do I?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Not. Not personally. [00:30:30] What do you mean, as an expert?

Payvand Menhadji: No, I’m not.

Payman Langroudi: Doing any of.

Payvand Menhadji: That. No, I’m not into that. No, [00:30:35] I hate reading.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Um, lots [00:30:40] of. Yeah, lots of implant dentists can tend to do that, actually. I wonder whether it’s because [00:30:45] they’ve had, like, a case and then they end up doing.

Payman Langroudi: I think some people think [00:30:50] it’s easy money compared to, like, you know, spending your time sticking stuff in patients.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Maybe I’d [00:30:55] rather have the day off, to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But and I think there’s a lot of litigation.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. [00:31:00] Of course. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There’s lots of work.

Payvand Menhadji: Exactly, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:31:05] it’s one of those. It’s one of those things that, like, I don’t know, I don’t know. I [00:31:10] haven’t looked into it enough, but I guess there’s a lot of period Neglect?

Payvand Menhadji: Yes, [00:31:15] but luckily I’m on the other side of that. Right? Yeah, because I’m helping and [00:31:20] treating those patients. But I think yeah GDP is bless them.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes, sometimes forget [00:31:25] to do pocket charts.

Payvand Menhadji: Or. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah exactly. [00:31:30]

Payman Langroudi: I think I think it’s not, it’s not the most like litigious bit of dentistry.

Payvand Menhadji: It’s, it’s [00:31:35] pretty high up there. Pretty high. I haven’t checked the stats recently but I think went to a BDA lecture [00:31:40] a couple years back and it was one of the highest.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s like third or fourth or something.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. [00:31:45] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You can imagine RCTs are going to be problematic. Yeah. You can imagine. [00:31:50] You can imagine implants, ortho you know like expectation management [00:31:55] side of things. Um, now my kids have been through ortho I kind of realised you [00:32:00] become super picky, man. As the patient, you become super [00:32:05] picky.

Payvand Menhadji: This is a little bit wonky.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, because it’s almost like this. These kids been through it for two years and [00:32:10] they’re going to pull it off and then that’s it. That’s you haven’t got a chance. And the weird thing is, the moment they take it off, you [00:32:15] don’t even bother with that ever again. You don’t think about it. It’s like some little corner that was really pissing you off. Yeah. [00:32:20] You just completely forget all about it. It’s so true.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, I actually had braces [00:32:25] when I was younger and then braces again at dental school because, you know, you’re around. [00:32:30] Yeah. Relapse. And you as a dentist, you want to have nice teeth, right? And you realise [00:32:35] it’s like a hairdresser. You have to have good hair. And I had, um, fixed braces [00:32:40] for two years at Liverpool. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you work now in five different practices? [00:32:45] Yeah. And I’m sure you’ve worked in a bunch of other practices as well.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, I have.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a question [00:32:50] I kind of ask specialists because they’ve got a good insight into this. What [00:32:55] lessons have you learned about business management practice management [00:33:00] from being exposed to so many different practices? Because even the best ones [00:33:05] do things differently to each other.

Payvand Menhadji: Absolutely. I think one of the best practices [00:33:10] I work at, out. Um. It’s just so well organised. You know, they have [00:33:15] probably more staff than they need, but it’s it’s costing. But then that’s [00:33:20] reflected, I suppose, in the prices. But it makes the clinicians and the patient journey [00:33:25] just so slick.

Payman Langroudi: I just think there’s not enough humans in dental practices generally.

Payvand Menhadji: Yes. [00:33:30] But you know they can hire more. But it’s a cost isn’t it? It’s a [00:33:35] yeah. Like in.

Payman Langroudi: Private dentistry.

Payvand Menhadji: Right.

Payman Langroudi: You can make up that.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. [00:33:40]

Payman Langroudi: Quite easily. You can make up the cost of a nurse for a day.

Payvand Menhadji: I agree.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but what I’m my reflection [00:33:45] on it is you walk into a room.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or a IV? These [00:33:50] aren’t high, expensive restaurants. Right. There’s a lot of humans. There’s a lot of humans. [00:33:55] There’s someone greeting you at the door. There’s someone else taking you to your table. There’s a third person coming in. Wine person. Whatever. [00:34:00] Yeah, there’s a lot of people there’s in dentistry. We seem to really have the bare minimum. [00:34:05]

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So this place has more people, more humans.

Payvand Menhadji: More humans is important, number one. Yeah. Um, [00:34:10] I think I mean, one of these practices, we’ve got somebody who’s on, [00:34:15] you know, we’ve got two people on reception, and there’s one person working from home who [00:34:20] answering calls, answering calls. But just any time you message them, they will just sort out [00:34:25] whatever you need. You know, I’ll just be like, can you do X, Y, and Z for these appointments next week? And [00:34:30] it’s done in a minute, you know.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s just so you’re saying you’re saying not to forget that someone can sit at [00:34:35] home and do a bunch of stuff.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, exactly. Work remotely as well. And I guess, you know, if you’re a mother [00:34:40] as well, you want to work part time. That’s such a great job.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a good insight.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Yeah, [00:34:45] yeah. Remote working. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Anymore?

Payvand Menhadji: Anymore? Let me think. Um. [00:34:50] Yeah. More nurses for sure. Pay your nurses properly if you find a good nurse. Especially [00:34:55] these surgical nurses are. They’re just amazing. They’re gold. And it’s really [00:35:00] funny because I end up seeing them at the same practices. Like there’s a handful in [00:35:05] London that kind of work in all the right places, and you end up seeing them again and again. And yeah, [00:35:10] if we can keep those around. Brilliant. Just appreciate [00:35:15] them. Um, but I think more people, good nurses who?

Payman Langroudi: Any of them. If you [00:35:20] come across a practice where, um, marketing’s been amazing.

Payvand Menhadji: So [00:35:25] some of my practices, they spend so much money on that kind of stuff.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the opposite.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. And [00:35:30] I’m looking at it, and I’m thinking, what’s actually bringing in the patients? I don’t think it’s the marketing. [00:35:35] Um, I think it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Word of mouth.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Word of mouth is [00:35:40] number one. Always. Um, absolutely. But it’s tricky, isn’t it? I [00:35:45] mean, I’m not a practice owner. I think it’s really challenging, but they spend so much on marketing. [00:35:50]

Payman Langroudi: So there’s something you’re kind of. You’re saying I wouldn’t if you’re lesson [00:35:55] learnt is too much money’s being spent on marketing. Yeah. And what perhaps you’re [00:36:00] saying, like, you could push that resource into customer care or whatever.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Or like, sometimes [00:36:05] I think, um, especially as a referral centre. If you’ve got lots of specialists, [00:36:10] it’s good to hold things like CPD evenings, etc. study days, [00:36:15] get the local GP’s around, look after them, give them good food and drinks, um, [00:36:20] make a community and that’s going to bring in more patients.

Payman Langroudi: Have you been around [00:36:25] long enough for people? Someone stopped referring to you.

Payvand Menhadji: Stop referring to me.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:36:30] I’ve noticed. I’ve noticed that the specialists really they have real pain about that one [00:36:35] when that happens. And the best it happens to the best.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, yeah. You know, it’s I mean, it’s early days [00:36:40] for me. It hasn’t happened yet. I haven’t I don’t think I’ve pissed anyone off yet.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a churn rate. Yeah. [00:36:45] There’s a churn rate of customers in every business. Yeah. In your business. Right. The customers are [00:36:50] dentists. There will be a churn rate. And that’s why it’s one of the hardest things about being a specialist is you.

Payvand Menhadji: Break [00:36:55] my heart.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, well, not not only the, the the sort of that emotional side of it, you [00:37:00] constantly have to get more dentists to refer to you. Yeah. Because there is a constant churn. [00:37:05]

Payvand Menhadji: Yes, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, people move around, people sell their practices. And one [00:37:10] thing I’ve noticed with specialists is sometimes they’re overreliant on 1 or 2 referrers. [00:37:15]

Payvand Menhadji: That’s, you know, I can see that in my work. Um, I mean, luckily, the practice [00:37:20] kind of the practice is, um, give me so many [00:37:25] patients, naturally, you know, they’re in-house, but the external referrals, you know, it’s [00:37:30] it’s the same few people usually, who are just really keeping you busy. [00:37:35]

Payman Langroudi: So imagine that you’re like, imagine 1 or 2.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. [00:37:40]

Payman Langroudi: I lost. Suddenly it changes the whole, you know, economics number one. It does. But but [00:37:45] also I’ve noticed specialists get hurt. Yeah. And by the way, I get it right. I’m [00:37:50] hurt when someone leaves enlightened. It’s. I feel like it’s my my baby. Yeah.

Payvand Menhadji: Of [00:37:55] course. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It does. I do get it. Yeah. But you haven’t. You haven’t [00:38:00] gone far enough in your journey to come across that particular pain point.

Payvand Menhadji: I’ll let you know when someone breaks [00:38:05] my heart. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah I know. I know you haven’t had one of these for a long time. [00:38:10] Yeah, but what would you do if you had half a day off?

Payvand Menhadji: And actually, I [00:38:15] had one on Thursday. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: No expectations.

Payvand Menhadji: No expectations. Because. [00:38:20] Because I’m getting quite big now. I mean, the principles are taking care of me.

Payman Langroudi: You weren’t [00:38:25] big.

Payvand Menhadji: Ah. What was the question again?

Payman Langroudi: What would you do if you had a time off? If you had time to yourself. [00:38:30]

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, I’m going to. I’m going to have a facial. I’m going to get my nails done. Yeah. Self-care [00:38:35] stuff. Shopping.

Payman Langroudi: Shopping.

Payvand Menhadji: I’m not going to sit at home, basically, but I’m going to go out and look after [00:38:40] myself.

Payman Langroudi: But so you said you said you live in Battersea. Yeah. [00:38:45] Have you been to that thing? The power station thing?

Payvand Menhadji: Of course. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’m [00:38:50] there all the time, though. I don’t even like shopping. Yeah, but it’s cool there.

Payvand Menhadji: It’s cool, isn’t [00:38:55] it? You’ve got nice shops. I love Battersea Park. You’ll see me on the weekend, you know. Oh, yeah. [00:39:00] Um, but, yeah, it’s yes, it’s a lovely neck of the woods, I love it, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:39:05] going forward, do you see yourself? Just. Is this it? Is this. Is this the way you’re going to be. [00:39:10]

Payvand Menhadji: I think.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your next goal?

Payvand Menhadji: I’m going to take it. Not not not take a step back. [00:39:15] But I want to see what my husband does next, to be honest. You know, he’s a dentist, etc. he’s [00:39:20] going to start the practice. I’m going to be a mum. And do you know where.

Payman Langroudi: The practice is yet or not?

Payvand Menhadji: It’ll [00:39:25] be south west somewhere. We don’t know yet. Um, but now I’m excited for him [00:39:30] because it’s all been about me, you know, being a specialist, blah, blah blah. So [00:39:35] it’s time to, like, back off a bit. So because we were in the same year at [00:39:40] university as well. So um, and then I think afterwards after [00:39:45] mat leave, my plan is to, yeah, get really stuck in with more difficult implant [00:39:50] work and work on those skills. We’re never stopping learning, right? Yeah. I mean, [00:39:55] I told you one of my biggest mentors is Amit Patel. He’s like [00:40:00] 50 odd And his place. He wouldn’t like me saying that. Probably he’s [00:40:05] placing zygomatic implants. Now he goes to trips to Brazil.

Payman Langroudi: Still learning.

Payvand Menhadji: He’s still learning. [00:40:10] And I’m like, why are you bothering? You know, with zygotes? Why? You know, why are you doing that? And he’s [00:40:15] like, because it’s cool. Like you just want to level up.

Payman Langroudi: So do you [00:40:20] see yourself going to that.

Payvand Menhadji: At this moment? No. Maybe. Never [00:40:25] say never. Yeah. Um. Never say never, [00:40:30] but I don’t I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: Why do you think it is? There aren’t enough women in [00:40:35] surgery and implants and all that.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, it’s like a boys thing, isn’t it? We always say it’s an old boys [00:40:40] club. The, um. It could be because of maternity and stuff. You know, [00:40:45] people, women have kids, and then they just decide, oh, I’m making enough money part time. [00:40:50] I don’t really have the time to dedicate to more courses. And learning [00:40:55] could be that, um, maybe women are a bit more risk averse, [00:41:00] unfortunately. Um, but no, it shouldn’t be. And actually, through [00:41:05] the API, I’ve realised there are so much more women. Yeah, it is changing. I [00:41:10] mean, we’ve got the next, um, members forum coming up and, you know, we’ve [00:41:15] got lots of female speakers. You know, they do these things intentionally. Yeah. Um, but it makes [00:41:20] a difference. You know, last year I was watching, you know, lots of women. And then this year I’m going to [00:41:25] be speaking, and I feel like I’ve just graduated. Um, but it’s really nice.

Payman Langroudi: Are you speaking [00:41:30] at the full on event or.

Payvand Menhadji: I need to.

Payman Langroudi: Make a.

Payvand Menhadji: Presentation. No, the full on one.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. [00:41:35] Um.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s. What’s it on?

Payvand Menhadji: It’s on gum grafting. [00:41:40]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. Around implants.

Payvand Menhadji: Round implants and teeth.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:41:45] let’s talk. Peri implantitis. Is it like the time bomb? People say.

Payvand Menhadji: Um, [00:41:50] I think it’s. Listen, everything’s about prevention, [00:41:55] right? So I always use the analogy. An implant is like a Ferrari in the mouth. [00:42:00] You need a good garage and you need more frequent mots. I say that to every patient and [00:42:05] then they’re like, oh, okay, but everyone can have them. Perio patients can have them. [00:42:10] Prevention is key. Once it happens, it’s really easy [00:42:15] now for me to put my perio hat on and see like why it’s happened. Lack of keratinised [00:42:20] tissue and cleansable, you know, poor placement cement. [00:42:25] Um, and I think if you can correct those factors and [00:42:30] then kind of try to stabilise the disease, it can be okay. But if you just kind of clean the implant, not [00:42:35] correct why it’s happened, it’s going to still remain a problem.

Payman Langroudi: So whether [00:42:40] or not you can correct it. Yeah. It depends on the particular situation. [00:42:45]

Payvand Menhadji: Exactly. Diagnosis is key. Right.

Payman Langroudi: I guess it’s the same with teeth as [00:42:50] well, right?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or is there something about periimplantitis is different to teeth? I mean, in that.

Payvand Menhadji: Sense, it’s more aggressive, [00:42:55] right?

Payman Langroudi: Is it, is it.

Payvand Menhadji: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Like, bone loss around implants is so much quicker [00:43:00] than teeth. Okay, so, yeah, we have to act faster. Um, and [00:43:05] it can go undetected for so long. Right. If a dentist isn’t probing the area or taking, you [00:43:10] know, regular ads, you might just not know because the patient has no symptoms. Um, [00:43:15] so, yeah, it’s important to do.

Payman Langroudi: Do you get mobile implants that you have to then [00:43:20] remove and then I guess, figure out why that happened and not make that mistake the [00:43:25] second time. Is that what.

Payvand Menhadji: No, it’s it’s interesting. Even if an implant has about 5 to [00:43:30] 10% of bone, it can be quite solid. Oh, really? It’s really rare.

Payman Langroudi: Is that why you mean it’s not undetected? [00:43:35]

Payvand Menhadji: Exactly. It’s really rare for an implant to be actually mobile. The implant itself, [00:43:40] the crown can be mobile, and then you just screw it back in. Hopefully. Yeah. Um, but [00:43:45] it’s rare for the implant to be mobile, so at that stage, it’s hopeless. It’s got to come out, [00:43:50] and then you can gbr redo an implant if the case suits. [00:43:55] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And have you got two bone graft with [00:44:00] four implants? Is that what you mean?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Bone grafts. Um, you can use [00:44:05] xenografts. Allografts. People use mixtures of things. So. Yeah. Guided [00:44:10] bone regeneration. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And soft tissue [00:44:15] as well. Sometimes it just, you know, it’s all on alveolar mucosa and that’s why everything’s failed. Because [00:44:20] it’s like a plaque slide going into the implant neck. Whereas you need that thick [00:44:25] collar of keratinised tissue sometimes.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to the darker part okay. [00:44:30] The pod should have like a music. Um, [00:44:35] what’s what if what comes to mind as the darkest day in the journey? [00:44:40] Or some of them so far?

Payvand Menhadji: Do you mean, um, in [00:44:45] my training or whatever you want? I’ve had some dark days, [00:44:50] my friend. Have you? Yeah. Period. This year of final year [00:44:55] has been really tough.

Payman Langroudi: Really? So you reckon from your whole biochem, dentistry [00:45:00] and specialist journey, this year was the hardest year.

Payvand Menhadji: This year was [00:45:05] the hardest year of my life. Yeah, it was just we say [00:45:10] exams like. And people just imagine us just studying. You’ve got non stop clinics [00:45:15] on top. The clinics don’t stop at the hospital. So you’re still treating patients like you would normally [00:45:20] because they don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Referral patients to the hospital.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah exactly. Because it’s an NHS [00:45:25] service. Right. And I had to beg my consultants to take two days [00:45:30] of study leave extra because, you know, I didn’t have enough days. Apparently [00:45:35] you only get ten a year or something. Um, to go to the Europa Conference. You know, [00:45:40] I had to, like, beg them. So I think you have so many commitments and you’re juggling [00:45:45] so many things, and you just sometimes think, bloody hell, like, I just need a break. Um, [00:45:50] but.

Payman Langroudi: Did you have a moment? Like, was it? I lost it. I mean, sometimes these moments [00:45:55] are like the straw that breaks the camel’s back. But did you have concurrent things? It [00:46:00] was your whole.

Payvand Menhadji: First trimester, I think. Yeah. I just couldn’t handle it. Every [00:46:05] day I was, like, trying to get through the next day. Feeling sick. Had so [00:46:10] much to do. Work was piling up. Practices, messaging you. What about this patient? When are [00:46:15] you back? What are you doing? Um. Your family as well. You know, you’ve got expectations [00:46:20] of being like a daughter, a best friend, a wife, etc.. You’re pulled from all different [00:46:25] sides, but you got through it, you know? [00:46:30] And that’s the thing. There’s always a really difficult period. And then it will come to an [00:46:35] end. And then you can look back and say, God, I won’t do that again.

Payman Langroudi: That sort of [00:46:40] idea of wanting it all. Yeah. Do you accept it’s impossible to have it all?

Payvand Menhadji: Um. [00:46:45]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it depends what all is, right? Yeah, exactly. [00:46:50]

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, I’ve got everything touch with that I’ve wanted. I’m looking at someone like Rena. [00:46:55] She looks like she’s got it all, you know?

Payman Langroudi: So it depends what you call.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, it depends what you call. [00:47:00] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because someone could say, oh, I want it all, I want kids, I want to be a specialist. [00:47:05] I want 130 practices as well.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s quite you know what I mean. Yeah, [00:47:10] yeah.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. You’ve got to be realistic as well.

Payman Langroudi: There is someone like that.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [00:47:15] Of course. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean. Yeah. You can, you can laugh at it [00:47:20] and someone else will laugh at you. Yeah. And say wow, look at her and [00:47:25] laugh at her. Yeah. Look up to you and say, look at her. Got a kid on the way just did that. [00:47:30]

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but my question where it’s going is this notion of if you [00:47:35] accept that, you can’t have it all.

Payvand Menhadji: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: What gives like what aspect [00:47:40] gives? Like you just mentioned their family.

Payvand Menhadji: Something’s got to give, right? [00:47:45]

Payman Langroudi: Often it’s yourself, isn’t it? Your own health and your own mental health sometimes.

Payvand Menhadji: Absolutely. For me, [00:47:50] it was a relationship. Yes. They call it. You know, they call these courses the divorce course.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:47:55]

Payvand Menhadji: Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, my relationship, we’ve had ups [00:48:00] and downs. We’re fine, you know, but there are periods where I probably drive him crazy. [00:48:05] Um, just because you’re stressed, right? And, [00:48:10] I mean, I used to be quite fit. I was always going to the gym, and then that took a real [00:48:15] turn. Um, I’ve got the excuse of being pregnant now. I’m just scared of going back [00:48:20] to the gym. Um, something’s got to give. You’re absolutely right. And usually it is your own health, [00:48:25] isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: You need that conversation to be had more, you know, because the other side of it, of [00:48:30] I want it all. And why can’t I have it all? Yeah, that seems to have been a conversation. Like people, you hear that [00:48:35] narrative quite a lot. Yeah. But the reality end of the of that equation [00:48:40] that okay. I mean, listen, by the way that I know, um, I [00:48:45] had Anushka from the mirror here. She’s got. She’s got a naughty [00:48:50] practices.

Payvand Menhadji: The purple one.

Payman Langroudi: Three children.

Payvand Menhadji: Wow. [00:48:55]

Payman Langroudi: Um, you know, there’s a lot, lot going on, but but, you know, even she was telling me she’s she’s [00:49:00] never really travelled.

Payvand Menhadji: Yes, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: You know, and she’s she’s sunk. You don’t get to 40 [00:49:05] practices by spending the money. Yeah. You get the 40 practice by sinking every penny back in.

Payvand Menhadji: Yes. [00:49:10]

Payman Langroudi: And on her anniversary, she had to get up at 4 a.m. [00:49:15] to make sure that it didn’t affect her husband and children to go through papers. [00:49:20] She was buying seven practices that day. You know.

Payvand Menhadji: At the.

Payman Langroudi: Same time. At the same time.

Payvand Menhadji: What [00:49:25] a lady.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, but my point is, is that okay, you could say. Oh, Anoushka’s got it all. Yeah. [00:49:30] But, yeah. What a nightmare. Exactly. Yeah, [00:49:35] yeah. If you want to look at it that.

Payvand Menhadji: Way to us. Yeah yeah yeah yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but the conversation needs to [00:49:40] be had. You know, it sounds so good and easy and.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, you’re totally. People actually [00:49:45] have said to me, I’ve had people come up to me in the hospital junior years. Hey, you’ve [00:49:50] got everything. How do you manage everything? How do you do this? How do you do that? And I’m [00:49:55] thinking, I’m so stressed. And, you know, I’ve ended up in this position. [00:50:00] I’m fortunate, but it’s not happened yet. It’s not easy. People [00:50:05] see the final product.

Payman Langroudi: That’s gone into.

Payvand Menhadji: It. Yeah. Bloody hell. Like so much work, people see the end [00:50:10] result and they think are accomplished. Whatever. But it’s hard work. [00:50:15] Nothing comes easy.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, look, if what we said was I lost hair. Really? We [00:50:20] said we said this, this particular journey. If you want to go backwards, you know, maybe from [00:50:25] when you were 15. Yeah. Yeah. That’s 18, 20 years ago.

Payvand Menhadji: It’s mad, isn’t [00:50:30] it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: 20 years you’ve been working at this and you’re just at the beginning. Yeah. You’re [00:50:35] the most junior specialist in the country right now. Absolutely. Yeah, exactly. [00:50:40] It’s huge man. Yeah. It’s huge. You know, people have to listen to that [00:50:45] conversation and say, yeah, this, this massive sacrifice in achievement. Yeah. [00:50:50] How do you get over this? I’m having real trouble with this notion of contentment [00:50:55] and progress.

Payvand Menhadji: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Especially from our [00:51:00] culture. Yeah. Like if you say if you’re someone I don’t know what it is in forest, but if someone comes [00:51:05] up to you and says how are you, how’s your business? And I say, I’m really content. It’s almost like, [00:51:10] what’s wrong with them? Like, why would he be content? Yeah. Like, it’s almost a bad thing to be. Yeah. [00:51:15] And I. And I get it right because it’s almost on a string. Contentment and progress can’t like, [00:51:20] you know, they’re in opposition to each other.

Payvand Menhadji: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Like, if you’re content, why would you progress?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:51:25] But you, as this ambitious person, and you seem very like. And like. I know your delivery [00:51:30] is. You seem like happy go lucky.

Payvand Menhadji: I’m so happy go lucky.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:51:35] have you squared this circle?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. You’re right. I am very happy. Go lucky. I think I’m, [00:51:40] I forget very easily, which is a good thing. You [00:51:45] know, like, I don’t dwell on the negativity and negative things for too long. [00:51:50]

Payman Langroudi: And the past.

Payvand Menhadji: Yes, exactly. I think that is a good skill I have, and I think that’s what keeps [00:51:55] me going. Like something will piss me off. Right. And yeah, I’ll be annoyed, but [00:52:00] not for long. And then I just think, whatever. I’m just upsetting myself, and I just. I move on easy [00:52:05] and I move on from people and problems very easily.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:52:10] don’t get emotionally attached to to negative stuff.

Payvand Menhadji: No, no, no, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:52:15] how about the power of now thing? I mean, are you are you in the future all the time? Is your is your head constantly thinking three [00:52:20] years ahead?

Payvand Menhadji: Maybe. You know, I’ve not thought about that. I do always [00:52:25] I’m a to do list person. I like having a list and [00:52:30] you’re going to laugh at me now. I have like a few like, life goals as well. Like [00:52:35] what I want to achieve. By what age? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Go on, go on. Share share share. 1 or 2 of those? [00:52:40]

Payvand Menhadji: No. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Well. Are you superstitious about them as well?

Payvand Menhadji: No, no, no. It’s just, [00:52:45] you know, you set yourself targets like.

Payman Langroudi: First kid at 34.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, that kind of [00:52:50] thing. Or like, a big mansion by this age. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What age were [00:52:55] you thinking?

Payvand Menhadji: That’s why I didn’t disclose.

Payman Langroudi: Which country did you think you’re going to be in to have this big mansion? [00:53:00]

Payvand Menhadji: No. I know you can only.

Payvand Menhadji: Dream, right? But I think [00:53:05] it’s.

Payvand Menhadji: Good to have some.

Payman Langroudi: Big mansions of dentists, generally outside London. But my [00:53:10] goodness, some dentists where they get themselves these gigantic pieces of land.

Payvand Menhadji: Just [00:53:15] give me, like, decades.

Payman Langroudi: But then sometimes £1 million buys a big thing.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. [00:53:20]

Payvand Menhadji: It depends. Exactly.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Big mansion. Sounds obvious. Anything [00:53:25] else? Anything like. Not so obvious.

Payvand Menhadji: Um. I mean, I’m fortunate, actually. I made sure [00:53:30] even during perio, I did a lot of travelling. I’ve done. Yeah, yeah. Every month, even if [00:53:35] it’s a little trip, at least it’s the weekend. Um, so I’m not, like, super thirsty [00:53:40] for travel. I’d love to have some longer holidays, but it’s okay. The main [00:53:45] ones are like, yeah, I wanted to start a family and it’s just the next step. [00:53:50] I want a big house basically.

Payman Langroudi: But honestly, my honest, I don’t want to give up any of the jobs [00:53:55] you’ve got. But my honest advice is three days is ample.

Payvand Menhadji: You think so?

Payman Langroudi: Three days is a lot.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, right.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:54:00] don’t know when you’re doing five days. Three days doesn’t.

Payvand Menhadji: Seem like.

Payman Langroudi: Three days is a lot. It’s a career.

Payvand Menhadji: Because [00:54:05] one day it’s just minimum admin, you know, letters, blah, blah, blah. But we got AI [00:54:10] now.

Payman Langroudi: No, but I’m saying three days is a lot of dentistry at a high level as well. You’re talking about, [00:54:15] you know, you want to be the kind of person who gets referred complicated stuff.

Payvand Menhadji: No you’re.

Payvand Menhadji: Right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:54:20] yeah. Surgeon.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve talked to some implant guys the night before. Big case. [00:54:25] They they go to bed early and.

Payvand Menhadji: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: This sort of move.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payvand Menhadji: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. Like, so [00:54:30] what I’m saying is three days of.

Payvand Menhadji: That.

Payvand Menhadji: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Is a lot. It’s like it’s like four days for [00:54:35] a standard but five days for someone.

Payvand Menhadji: More experienced than me. Yeah. I take your advice. You’re [00:54:40] right. I’m just thinking I can do it all right now, Victoria.

Payman Langroudi: And say you’re.

Payvand Menhadji: Leaving. Yeah. Okay. [00:54:45]

Payman Langroudi: So the practices you’re at Victoria [00:54:50] and Ariane.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which is the. What’s it called? Health.

Payvand Menhadji: That’s the health society. One place. Beautiful [00:54:55] place there. So lovely as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. The vibe. The vibe in that place.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. They’re [00:55:00] just cool. They’re cool, they’re cool.

Payman Langroudi: They can’t help themselves.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Go on.

Payvand Menhadji: Um. Kills. [00:55:05] Hap kills. Love that practice. Very cool. He’s just. He’s [00:55:10] just so relaxed. I look up to him a lot.

Payman Langroudi: He knows a lot as well.

Payvand Menhadji: He [00:55:15] is an exceptional dentist. I always knew he was good, but I didn’t realise until I started working. [00:55:20]

Payman Langroudi: Exceptional for many years now. You know, it’s like.

Payvand Menhadji: Such a he’s like a god. Yeah, I really like [00:55:25] him.

Payman Langroudi: And Jaz Gulati works there too.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, jazz has come back. So he worked there before and now he’s come back. Um, [00:55:30] I work in Q as well. Um, Jaguar. He went to [00:55:35] Liverpool, actually. Okay. Um, really nice practice. Private practice.

Payman Langroudi: Private [00:55:40] practice.

Payvand Menhadji: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Um. Yeah. Really happy at those. And then. [00:55:45]

Payman Langroudi: Serene in serene and Knightsbridge.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Like there there’s [00:55:50] lots of Arabs. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like people like tourism. Like like health tourism. [00:55:55] They’ve come to London for the for the dentistry.

Payvand Menhadji: Absolutely. And sapphires contacts really. [00:56:00] You know, she um I think she has like a bit of an international presence as well now, but [00:56:05] maybe in the Arab world, um, so people will come to her and then she’ll send [00:56:10] me her cases to stabilise or like pre or post ortho, which is really nice. [00:56:15] Um, you get like.

Payman Langroudi: Is that the most expensive one of the funds you go to?

Payvand Menhadji: No, I think [00:56:20] S1 Dental is the Westminster.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent.

Payvand Menhadji: It’s full of [00:56:25] like lords and ladies.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been there a long time.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, it’s 20 years plus and it’s right [00:56:30] by the Houses of Parliament. It’s beautiful. Yeah, I think that one’s the most expensive place. [00:56:35]

Payman Langroudi: So what does it cost to see you?

Payvand Menhadji: Um. A consult? Yeah, 250. [00:56:40] Yeah, for an.

Payman Langroudi: Hour. What does it cost for, like, mucogingival surgery? [00:56:45] Like, I know it depends on it.

Payvand Menhadji: Depends. Right. But, yeah, like.

Payman Langroudi: On average.

Payvand Menhadji: On [00:56:50] average, um, it totally varies. Like a grand to [00:56:55] two grand to three grand. You know, it depends how many teeth, how long it’s going to take.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:57:00] long does it take? I mean, isn’t it quite quick?

Payvand Menhadji: No, it depends what you’re doing. Right. And maybe I’m quite [00:57:05] slow still, but if you’re doing like an area from like 2 to 6, right. [00:57:10] That’s a lot. Yeah. And I would book two and a half, three hours for that.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:57:15] have you got to the point where you can tell how it’s going to like develop [00:57:20] mature as.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course you can tell before you start from what you said about the bone [00:57:25] levels.

Payvand Menhadji: Bone levels. It’s your suturing. It’s you’re suturing at the end is so key as well. Remember, [00:57:30] I’m just a baby specialist. I’m sure specialists will listen to me now and think. How many has she done? [00:57:35] Um, but I’m still learning a lot. But, yeah, the suturing will take me [00:57:40] the longest time. The easy part, and the most fun part is the cutting. Cutting. Five [00:57:45] minutes. Get that ready. Five minutes. Get the graph from the palette. The suturing at [00:57:50] the end is what.

Payman Langroudi: Makes the.

Payvand Menhadji: Different time. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly. [00:57:55] What about that? Just being very fine. I mean, it’s interesting you ask. Yeah. [00:58:00] What’s the key to Implantology. And he said.

Payvand Menhadji: Oh did he. Yeah. For me it’s I think [00:58:05] what.

Payman Langroudi: About.

Payvand Menhadji: The suturing? Suturing? Just like positioning everything perfectly. Not taking [00:58:10] too long as well because you don’t want to damage the tissues.

Payman Langroudi: Traumatising not.

Payvand Menhadji: Traumatising. [00:58:15] You’re exactly using your really small 6 or 7 zero sutures. It’s hard, [00:58:20] you know. Um. What else? Keeping the tissues moist. [00:58:25] Just. Just positioning. Just doing a good job. You know, when you get back to an upper [00:58:30] six. Access is tricky, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payvand Menhadji: Um, not having [00:58:35] tension on the flap. Primary closure, all these, like, you know, standard stuff. [00:58:40]

Payman Langroudi: You know what? I’ve noticed that the the difference between an expert and a not expert [00:58:45] is doing the basics absolutely right.

Payvand Menhadji: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: You know.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Not [00:58:50] missing.

Payvand Menhadji: A step.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Not not skipping any steps.

Payvand Menhadji: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s so interesting how a lot [00:58:55] of our profession is around hacks and and and missing steps. Like, [00:59:00] like almost. You’re almost like on on some of the forums. It’s about what’s the best way to miss this step.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. [00:59:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And whereas every time you go to an expert in any area, whichever and [00:59:10] you’re talking to them, you try and find out where’s the magic in this? Yeah. You’re so right. It’s not magic. It’s [00:59:15] do everything right without skipping any steps.

Payvand Menhadji: Exactly. Every [00:59:20] time you do it. Yeah. So it becomes the norm, and you just. It’s like muscle memory, [00:59:25] right? Yeah. You’re so right.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, it’s really good from the manufacturer perspective. Yeah. You’d [00:59:30] be amazed how few people read the instructions.

Payvand Menhadji: I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, you’d be amazed. [00:59:35] I’d say one 5% might read instructions.

Payvand Menhadji: I’m just thinking of enlighten [00:59:40] right now. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, sometimes the instructions are very specific. Very, very [00:59:45] specific. Like dry and wet and then dry again. You know, something like that. Yeah. And, you know, some [00:59:50] chemist has gone through like hell to figure out, you know, this bioactive glass, the way [00:59:55] this works. Yeah, yeah. You’re going to have to, like, you know, first dry it, then apply it, then leave it for [01:00:00] 30s. And then. Very rarely does anyone read that.

Payvand Menhadji: Why are we [01:00:05] like that? We’re lazy. We’re humans.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. By the way, I’m just saying, if I buy some thing, [01:00:10] I never read the instructions. Yeah, some speaker or something. Yeah, I [01:00:15] never read it, but it’s one of the reasons why we do like online training.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. [01:00:20]

Payman Langroudi: You know, like an actual session of training.

Payvand Menhadji: Exactly. Even with all this baby stuff, [01:00:25] you know, I’m. I can’t be bothered to sit down and read a book, but whereas, you know, these [01:00:30] NCT classes when someone’s telling me do this. That’s how I learned. Yeah, [01:00:35] I think that’s really important, actually. It makes it more interactive.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind if I say [01:00:40] errors?

Payvand Menhadji: Administrative errors. Cool. Yeah. [01:00:45] There was a period I was, I think, hands up. At the hospital, [01:00:50] I was quite lazy with my notes because you think you’re protected [01:00:55] as well in the hospital. You’ve got this, like.

Payman Langroudi: Cottonwool around you. Yeah, yeah.

Payvand Menhadji: But, [01:01:00] you know, things do get checked. And, you know, I would get flagged up. So, um, [01:01:05] now I’ve got some good solid templates, etc.. Um, I need to [01:01:10] get I want to use Dental tco. Do you use anything like that? [01:01:15]

Payman Langroudi: I don’t practice.

Payvand Menhadji: Oh, yeah. I didn’t know that, actually.

Payman Langroudi: I stopped 2012.

Payvand Menhadji: Fair [01:01:20] enough. You don’t need to know. Do you miss it?

Payman Langroudi: I miss people.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, but [01:01:25] you’ve got all this, you know, you’ve got the Dental Leaders podcast.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s one of the reasons I [01:01:30] do it.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: But, um. Yeah. No, but I know what you’re talking about. So something [01:01:35] like Dental. There’s a few of them is like karaoke.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, exactly. So I think you need to spend, [01:01:40] like, a good, solid day to learn it, and then you can use it, but, um. [01:01:45] Yeah. Notes. I’m, I’m, I’m not good on. So that’s my biggest kind [01:01:50] of error in terms of clinical error.

Payman Langroudi: What happened? What happened? You didn’t.

Payvand Menhadji: Oh, nothing [01:01:55] really. You just kind of.

Payman Langroudi: What was the event?

Payvand Menhadji: Um, you know, you just get a slap on the wrist and, [01:02:00] like.

Payman Langroudi: Your your boss.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Consultants. Like, for example, I was about to start [01:02:05] a surgery. I’ll never forget this. Actually about to start surgery. And, [01:02:10] um, because we got a new system. It’s called epic on the hospital, and [01:02:15] I just wasn’t getting the hang of it. I’m not very. I can do dentistry. I’m not good at computers. So [01:02:20] I’d done the consent form. Hand on heart. I’d done it. Patient was. Their patient was vouching [01:02:25] for me. Like, I know what I’m doing, I signed something last week. She told me [01:02:30] all the risks the consultants like, tell me the risks. And he’s like pain, bleeding, swelling, [01:02:35] infection. And, um, I just couldn’t find it on this bloody computer. [01:02:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it was just stuff like that I’d always get in trouble for, um, [01:02:45] you fill out, then you have to fill out another form, like a date form, and [01:02:50] then just keep saying sorry.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’m not gonna accept it. Sorry. I’m not gonna [01:02:55] accept that as your error. I like it, but not a lot.

Payvand Menhadji: Okay? [01:03:00] I haven’t had any major cock ups.

Payman Langroudi: There must have been other errors.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, I know, and [01:03:05] I’ve been thinking about it. I wish I had something really juicy to tell you. Like I made a patient bleed [01:03:10] to death, but I haven’t. No. Um. I [01:03:15] mean, my biggest fear. It’s not happened [01:03:20] to me. I hope it never happens to me. But you hear of people harvesting the graft from the palate [01:03:25] and then the nurse suctions it up.

Payman Langroudi: And they lose.

Payvand Menhadji: It and they lose it. And, [01:03:30] you know.

Payman Langroudi: Are you supposed to do that point?

Payvand Menhadji: Well, you you’re meant to say sorry and pray that you [01:03:35] can take it from the other side and the patient will let you. But it’s so sore. So then [01:03:40] the whole mouth is. So every time I’m working with anyone, I’m like, look, okay, [01:03:45] but we have to communicate properly.

Payman Langroudi: Complaint. One complaint in your career.

Payvand Menhadji: Hand on heart, I haven’t.

Payman Langroudi: Really. [01:03:50]

Payvand Menhadji: Let’s not jinx it.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Payvand Menhadji: I want to say people like me. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s amazing [01:03:55] man. Yeah, that’s. How many years have you been a dentist?

Payvand Menhadji: Since 2018. Seven. [01:04:00]

Payman Langroudi: That’s amazing man. Not a single complaint. All right.

Payvand Menhadji: I swear to God.

Payman Langroudi: Your [01:04:05] most difficult patient.

Payvand Menhadji: Difficult patient? It’s the ones I mean. I kind of [01:04:10] like it as well. They quiz me so much. So just the other. Just [01:04:15] the other week, I had somebody, um. You know, I wanted to take a tooth out. It was [01:04:20] what we call hopeless prognosis. No matter what kind of perio treatment we do, This tooth needs [01:04:25] to come out. And she was saying to me, look, I get that, but I don’t want to have a [01:04:30] foreign body placed in me like an implant. And then we talked about bridges [01:04:35] for ages, implants for ages, and then the whole consult I [01:04:40] hour. I didn’t even look in her mouth. We were just speaking about this situation. [01:04:45] And, you know, she was very articulate, very intelligent, and she wanted me to like [01:04:50] quote, papers and.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. And my nurse is looking at me like, are you okay? [01:04:55] You know, are you tired? And then you finish and you just think I felt [01:05:00] very challenged. But luckily, you know, patients on board. But they’re the difficult patients [01:05:05] for me, all the questioning, it’s exhausting.

Payman Langroudi: And American.

Payvand Menhadji: She [01:05:10] was English actually.

Payman Langroudi: I know, I know dentist. Yeah. Who? Um, [01:05:15] the patient got rejected by the Eastman mid treatment because [01:05:20] he was so difficult.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And she took him on. Really? [01:05:25] Yeah. And, uh, the, you know, he wanted pulse oximeter on [01:05:30] his hand throughout treatment and all sorts of suctions all over the place [01:05:35] because of the amalgam. Uh, yeah. Yeah. And, uh, I think [01:05:40] she charged him. I don’t want to get it wrong, but it was. It was [01:05:45] in the £1,500 for a mo. Right. And and it took [01:05:50] all day.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payvand Menhadji: I mean, that’s the thing with a difficult patient as well, [01:05:55] right? You just kind of up your fee. And so if.

Payman Langroudi: She said it wasn’t worth it, by.

Payvand Menhadji: The way.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:06:00] she said it was a terrible day. Yeah.

Payvand Menhadji: Oh, my God, that is awful. But [01:06:05] that that is a, um, a trick that somebody had told me. You know, if you don’t want to see the patient [01:06:10] up your fee and then if you are seeing them, at least you’re getting rewarded for it. [01:06:15] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But in that situation, when someone’s saying, quote me a paper, what are you saying?

Payvand Menhadji: Well, [01:06:20] luckily, you know, I’ve just finished my finals, so. Yeah. Yeah. So everything’s fresh at the moment. But you [01:06:25] know me in a few years time. Well, I’ll be hopefully quoting those old papers, [01:06:30] but it’s hard to keep up.

Payman Langroudi: And I think, you know, a couple of things, a couple of things that young dentists need to [01:06:35] be aware of that they’re not so much, in my experience, is that it’s okay to say, I don’t know.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, [01:06:40] yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: When you’re young, you feel like if you say that you’re going to be found out. [01:06:45]

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, you’re right. But it’s this whole, like, specialist hat now. Like as a baby specialist, people [01:06:50] are still paying the big bucks to see you and for the treatment, so. [01:06:55]

Payman Langroudi: I know, but look, I, I’ve had a bunch of people. I’m paying too much money for their, like, [01:07:00] very specialist legal knowledge for the sake of the argument. Yeah, yeah. And [01:07:05] when I asked a question, the guy says, I don’t know. My respect goes up for him. Not [01:07:10] down.

Payvand Menhadji: At least he’s not lying.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. This is not making it up on the spot.

Payvand Menhadji: You know, it’s funny you say [01:07:15] that because this same patient, she then started talking about amalgam. And that’s not my [01:07:20] expertise. I can blag a little bit. But I did actually say, I don’t know because she [01:07:25] was asking more questions and we moved on, which was good.

Payman Langroudi: I respect for that. For that professional goes up first. [01:07:30] Yeah. Because. Because he knows what he doesn’t know. Yeah, exactly. You’re not.

Payvand Menhadji: Bullshitting [01:07:35] the.

Payman Langroudi: Patient. Bullshitting. Yeah, yeah. Um, but then then and I [01:07:40] spoke to Andrew Darwin about this as well. The telling the patient the things that can [01:07:45] go wrong. Yeah. In a again, young dentists think if I do [01:07:50] that, it’s going to put the patient off me being their their dentist.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Whereas [01:07:55] from the patient perspective again you think at least the guy knows what could [01:08:00] go wrong.

Payvand Menhadji: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And yeah, as clinicians we’ve been in situations where I’ve been in situations [01:08:05] where family members about to have a ten hour operation.

Payvand Menhadji: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s important that we [01:08:10] know what could go wrong.

Payvand Menhadji: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: In that situation. You don’t want just reassurance that everything’s going to be all [01:08:15] right.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. And I think, you know, with grafting, Going back to grafting, I always [01:08:20] tell them, like, you know, you over stress, the pain, you don’t know how they’re [01:08:25] going to respond. But I’m like.

Payman Langroudi: Under-promise kind of thing.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, exactly. I’m like, it’s going to hurt so much. [01:08:30] You know? I’m really sorry. You’re going to hate me on day 4 or 5. Then we’ll be friends again in [01:08:35] two weeks. But I and then they come back and they’re like, it really wasn’t that bad. But, you know, I really stress [01:08:40] that you’re going to have so much pain because some people do. Um, but I make sure that’s when my, um, [01:08:45] my letters are really good as well with, you know, all the risks. You have to do it right. [01:08:50]

Payman Langroudi: As a perio trainee, you’ve had all the restorative training as well. So [01:08:55] is part of that course doing like full mouth rehabs and that sort of thing or [01:09:00] doesn’t it get.

Payvand Menhadji: No. Unfortunately not. We kind of work with our colleagues. So [01:09:05] yeah. Together. Together. Yeah. Like we all do the crown lengthening but they’ll do all the like the [01:09:10] crowns, bridges, etc.. Um, we can plan together, but more [01:09:15] of the full mouth rehabs, it’s more prosto.

Payman Langroudi: And so are you doing much drilling of teeth at all?

Payvand Menhadji: No [01:09:20] no, no. I was, but now I’m not. It’s just it’s just. Yeah, exactly. [01:09:25] Just cutting and stitching. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What are [01:09:30] you very bad at?

Payvand Menhadji: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Often notes.

Payvand Menhadji: Saying [01:09:35] no.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Payvand Menhadji: People pleaser. I’m a people pleaser. That’s why I’ve got so many jobs. [01:09:40] I hate letting people down. That’s my. [01:09:45] That’s my downfall. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a terrible people pleasing. It’s a wonderful person [01:09:50] to be around.

Payvand Menhadji: I’m getting better at it. But that, truthfully, that [01:09:55] is. Yeah. I’m a people pleaser.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a wonderful person to be around, isn’t it? Everyone thinks, oh, this person is so amazing. [01:10:00]

Payvand Menhadji: Happy go lucky.

Payman Langroudi: So amazing. You know, like, if you’re saying yes to everything. Yeah. Saying yes [01:10:05] to everything your parents are saying. Yes. Everything. Your husband saying yes. Everything your kids saying.

Payvand Menhadji: Then you burn out.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yes. To everything. [01:10:10] Your work saying. Yeah. And the only thing you’re not taking care of is yourself.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. That’s me. [01:10:15]

Payman Langroudi: It’s great to be around that person. Yeah, people put that person on a pedestal, right?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. [01:10:20]

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Payvand Menhadji: And it’s something always gives, right? So for ages, I have lots [01:10:25] of non Dental friends that keep me sane, basically. And they were just like, hey, like, we’ve not [01:10:30] seen you in ages. You know, we’re not a priority anymore. All these kind of things. And I’m just thinking, [01:10:35] you bastards, I’m just trying to survive. Um, but [01:10:40] yeah, I think saying no, um, I need to work on it. I’m [01:10:45] aware of it, though. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: A couple of quick round things.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What comes [01:10:50] to your mind if I say, what’s the best lecture you’ve been to?

Payvand Menhadji: So we were talking [01:10:55] about this, um, the Europa conferences. I like the Glastonbury of Perio, and [01:11:00] they really are though. And it’s every three years, [01:11:05] it’s like 10,000 people and 10,000. Oh it’s massive.

Payman Langroudi: How many [01:11:10] screens, how many, how many stages?

Payvand Menhadji: So yeah, maybe like 3 or 4 big stages at [01:11:15] the same time, and then loads of little rooms as well. It’s it’s it’s huge.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:11:20] didn’t I had no idea.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah yeah yeah it’s massive. It’s so fun. And it’s like [01:11:25] all the big names of Perrier.

Payman Langroudi: Oh yeah. If it’s every three years, it’s like.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The [01:11:30] World Cup final.

Payvand Menhadji: Exactly. And everyone’s there and you know, the meals [01:11:35] out, the drinks. So much fun. Um, the best speaker I’ve seen speak. [01:11:40] I think it changes all the time, but it’s the. Kelly. Have you heard of him? Giovanni? Kelly? [01:11:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payvand Menhadji: He’s he’s a character. He’s like the mucogingival God or [01:11:50] self proclaimed. But he is self proclaimed. I hope he’s not listening. Um, but he, [01:11:55] um, he’s just such a personality.

Payman Langroudi: Like a great.

Payvand Menhadji: Man. Yeah. I mean, the Italians in [01:12:00] period, full stop. But he’s he always wears a scarf. We caught him like vaping on stage [01:12:05] once. Vaping in a perio conference. Can you imagine? But, you [01:12:10] know, it’s just it’s iconic. And it’s just the [01:12:15] way he talks. Like, he’ll he’ll he’ll speak really quietly and then he’ll start shouting. And [01:12:20] he wakes you up and he’s come up with so many of the techniques that we use today. Oh, really? So I [01:12:25] think yeah, he’s like every time I see him, he’s quite special for me.

Payman Langroudi: Like [01:12:30] a, like a hero worship thing.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s nice. Nice. When you start meeting your [01:12:35] heroes, it’s a nice thing. Yeah, it can be. It can be nice. Um, what about. What about if I said to you, what’s your most [01:12:40] important sort of resource like call it. It could be a book. It could be a Instagram [01:12:45] page. It could be a website.

Payvand Menhadji: Um, there’s a specialist oral [01:12:50] surgeon, Bijan Shokoohi. No, he is an amazing [01:12:55] implant and oral surgeon. And he’s.

Payman Langroudi: In the US.

Payvand Menhadji: In the UK, and he’s [01:13:00] made an Instagram fairly recently, maybe in the past six months or so. And it’s taken off. [01:13:05] It’s so educational.

Payman Langroudi: What’s it.

Payvand Menhadji: Called? Um, it’s just his name. Yeah. Doctor Bijan [01:13:10] Shokoohi. I think I’m pronouncing his name right. It’s so good. Really? [01:13:15] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll check it out.

Payvand Menhadji: He taught me it, guys, to take out teeth. Um, him and his [01:13:20] wife, actually. But his page, I’ll share it with you. Is. Is phenomenal. And I don’t think many [01:13:25] people know about it, but, I mean, he’s getting traction now, but it’s so [01:13:30] good. Excellent. That’s the best page. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Final questions. Fantasy [01:13:35] dinner party. Three guests, dead [01:13:40] or alive. Who are you having?

Payvand Menhadji: Um. I [01:13:45] so I’d want, like, um. So I’m really into, like, [01:13:50] house music.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Payvand Menhadji: Me too. Nice. So, like, I go to Ibiza every year, that kind [01:13:55] of thing. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Not any more.

Payvand Menhadji: And I just.

Payman Langroudi: I.

Payvand Menhadji: Went pregnant. My baby went [01:14:00] to a club. Excellent. Um. And I think. Yeah. Don’t [01:14:05] don’t ask me which DJ, but it would be cool to have like, a bunch of them, like high flying [01:14:10] deejays together in a room, having a chat with them. Um, also, maybe [01:14:15] like the.

Payman Langroudi: Old DJ yourself.

Payvand Menhadji: I’m not very good. I’m not like Victoria. I have, I have, I have decks, [01:14:20] but really? Yeah. Yeah, it’s actually a maternity leave project.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent, excellent, [01:14:25] excellent.

Payvand Menhadji: Um, but also. So that’s like the fun side. I’d [01:14:30] love to like. I would have loved to have meet the Shah of Iran. Yeah, that would be quite cool. Have [01:14:35] a chat.

Payman Langroudi: See, it’s not the first time he’s come up.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Really? Yeah. What [01:14:40] the hell happened, man? You know, um. And. Yeah, maybe, [01:14:45] like my granddad, I never met. Something like that. Oh, yeah?

Payman Langroudi: Who’s that? Your dad’s dad. [01:14:50]

Payvand Menhadji: Dad’s dad? Yeah. He died giving blood, actually.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, he died way before you were born. [01:14:55]

Payvand Menhadji: Before I was born. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I.

Payvand Menhadji: See. Sounds like a cool guy. Yeah? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Why? What stories [01:15:00] have you heard about him?

Payvand Menhadji: Just like, you know, because I see myself in [01:15:05] my dad’s personality, and my dad always says he was like his dad. And I just it would [01:15:10] be cool to see, like where it came from, you know, the craziness.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t come across [01:15:15] as crazy to me, man. That’s good. All right, final question. Is [01:15:20] it like a deathbed question?

Payvand Menhadji: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: It’s weird for someone as young as you, but you [01:15:25] had to give three pieces of advice.

Payvand Menhadji: Three pieces of advice? Um, [01:15:30] don’t hold grudges. We were talking about this. Get over the negative [01:15:35] things really easily. Just don’t. Don’t care about things that don’t actually matter. [01:15:40] Like, if it won’t matter tomorrow, who cares? Um. So, yeah, try not to be too emotional [01:15:45] as well. Um, and just enjoy life. She [01:15:50] says working really hard. But yeah, it’s important.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got a big smile on your face the whole time.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. [01:15:55] I have fun doing everything. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I really hope that just keeps on going. Right. [01:16:00] I was talking to my mom about this, and she was saying life in the end breaks. You know, I [01:16:05] was saying to my mom, why, why do you look so sad? Yeah. Yesterday I was like, why do [01:16:10] you say what’s wrong? And she said, life in the end breaks you. And she’s.

Payvand Menhadji: Tired. Hungry.

Payman Langroudi: Like [01:16:15] maybe it does. Maybe it does. Maybe, you know, like you’re young, right? [01:16:20]

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. You’re right.

Payman Langroudi: But I hope it doesn’t. That’s that’s that’s [01:16:25] right. How would you like to be remembered?

Payvand Menhadji: I want to be remembered as [01:16:30] a really professional, talented specialist, [01:16:35] but, like, also very humble and just, you know, very approachable. And I [01:16:40] never want to let anything get to my head, you know what I mean? Like, no ego. That’s [01:16:45] how I want to be remembered.

Payman Langroudi: Difficult though difficult, though, because once you become this very talented, [01:16:50] the plaudits come in, right? Yeah. And, you know.

Payvand Menhadji: I [01:16:55] hope to never change. Like who I.

Payman Langroudi: Am, Giovanni. You know, like.

Payvand Menhadji: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: People start hero worshipping you. [01:17:00]

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, that’s true, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: It’s going to be if you’re, if you’re that that talented. But but you’re [01:17:05] right. That pulling off, you know, dancing on that needle.

Payvand Menhadji: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Is beautiful.

Payvand Menhadji: Exactly. [01:17:10] That’s what I would aim for. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive pleasure. Thank you. Thank you so much [01:17:15] for coming in.

Payvand Menhadji: Thank you so.

Payman Langroudi: Much. 30 weeks pregnant. Yeah. Well done. Thank you. Thank [01:17:20] you.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [01:17:25] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:17:30] Your hosts, Payman Langroudi [01:17:35] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got [01:17:40] this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for [01:17:45] actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because [01:17:50] I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [01:17:55] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out [01:18:00] of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.