Month: March 2026

[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get to go [00:00:10] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:15] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:00:20]

Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis [00:00:25] of that is to really believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened [00:00:30] online training on enlightened online training to understand how to assess a case [00:00:35] quickly, how to deliver brilliant results every time. Next time. Whitening underwhelms. Try [00:00:40] and lighten. Now let’s get to the pod. It gives me great pleasure to welcome J.W. Oliver [00:00:45] onto the podcast. J.w. is a renowned author, speaker, [00:00:50] serial entrepreneur, philanthropist, started loads and loads of [00:00:55] companies from when he was 12 years old. But it’s all sort of Now accumulated [00:01:00] into the business process outsourcing area. Or I know you like to call it insourcing. [00:01:05] J.w. Zim works out of Zimbabwe and now really [00:01:10] focusing in quite a lot on the dental profession with support DDS, where you’re [00:01:15] a huge player in the US and recently started in the UK with with my [00:01:20] good friend Gina representing you here. Welcome to the pod.

JW Oliver: Oh thank [00:01:25] you. It’s a great, great pleasure. Shoot. I’m just lucky I’m able to be on here. And you use some words there [00:01:30] that, uh, renowned. I might have to strike that, I think. Just some some [00:01:35] words there. That may be a little much, but, uh, I’ll accept the compliment.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re sitting in [00:01:40] Texas right now. How’s the weather there?

JW Oliver: Uh, well, it’s cold. We’re [00:01:45] coming up, uh, here early December, and it’s been chilly. But, you know, in Texas, as [00:01:50] they say, just wait a few minutes and it’ll change, because I think it’s supposed to be, uh, [00:01:55] much warmer tomorrow, but it’s been freezing the last couple of days as well.

Payman Langroudi: Give [00:02:00] me a bit of your backstory. How did you how did you grow up and how did you chance [00:02:05] on outsourcing?

JW Oliver: Wow. Yeah. That’s a that’s an interesting [00:02:10] story. You know, I never thought I would be sitting here at 60 years old today and, [00:02:15] and, and running a business in Africa and Costa Rica. And so [00:02:20] that’s that’s a different story. You know, I grew up, uh, came from a very we were [00:02:25] well below the poverty line. Um, mom, dad divorced at age [00:02:30] five for me and and mom raising three girls. And I was the youngest a boy. So four [00:02:35] kids. And just luckily, we had good, good grandparents and support systems [00:02:40] that really helped us get through it. And and, you know, I remember Payman I remember when being in [00:02:45] high school. So 15, 16, 17 I was kind of introduced to some [00:02:50] folks that were really very wealthy, uh, some kids whose parents were very wealthy, I guess [00:02:55] I should say. Yeah. And I’m just I remember thinking, well, what did they do? What did they [00:03:00] do and why, why, why, why am I living where I’m at? And why are they where they’re at? You [00:03:05] know, is it luck? Is it hard work? And so I remember just developing this affinity [00:03:10] to thinking I didn’t want to be poor. I remember my mom used to, uh, [00:03:15] go to the grocery store, and I would be in the basket, you know, sitting there, and I [00:03:20] can really remember her, uh, putting stuff in the in the basket. And then she had a little calculator, [00:03:25] and she would take stuff back out of the basket and put it back up. Right. Just realising [00:03:30] not going to have enough money for these groceries. And so, you know, I remember [00:03:35] those kind of things and they were just impactful for me. So you know I went to university, got [00:03:40] my degree, I got a degree in political science. I thought I was going to be in law enforcement. Uh, [00:03:45] kind of fell into getting into the the dental equipment business way back in 1986. [00:03:50]

Payman Langroudi: What were you selling?

JW Oliver: Uh, we were selling actually refurbished [00:03:55] dental chairs, lights, X-rays. This was pre-digital, right? [00:04:00] So we were selling old film processors and, uh, but we were selling [00:04:05] refurbished. And it was, it was it got started by accident. I did it out of my mom’s [00:04:10] garage for a number of years, and then grew that into a fairly [00:04:15] large business. Sold that in 2010. Um, and, [00:04:20] and then was trying to kind of find my way as to what I would do. I got back into [00:04:25] the, uh, digital imaging was kind of making a force at that time. Let’s call this around [00:04:30] 2012. And so I got back into selling recertified [00:04:35] phone beams, uh, and other digital imaging equipment from [00:04:40] then and still have that company. It’s a company called Global Imaging. It’s a smaller company, and, uh, [00:04:45] it’s still very active and serves a purpose. But then how [00:04:50] I got to where I am today, in 2015, My wife and I went to this, uh, [00:04:55] Christian marriage conference. It was actually a fundraiser for a group called National Centre for fathering. And, [00:05:00] uh, I meet a guy from Zimbabwe. Uh, small group. Only 25 [00:05:05] couples were there. I meet a guy from Zimbabwe, and he was like, hey, we should get together and have [00:05:10] have meet sometime. I’m like, meet where? So we ended up meeting them. Oh, it was about eight months [00:05:15] later in Italy and just became friends with him. And he was like, man, we should get into [00:05:20] business together. And I thought, doing what? And he said, well, we got these great, great [00:05:25] people in Zimbabwe.

JW Oliver: They just don’t have jobs, but they’re well educated. They speak the [00:05:30] Queen’s English, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, well, I maybe could hire a couple for my company [00:05:35] and see how it works out. So we hired two. This was in 2017, [00:05:40] uh, end of 2017. And I remember going back to him and saying, hey, this works out pretty well. [00:05:45] They’re really smart. They’ve got they speak great. It doesn’t sound like you’re, you know, speaking to a foreign [00:05:50] country. It works. And so, um, I remember [00:05:55] in, uh, let’s see, February of 2018, we had eight [00:06:00] people working for us. And I’ve got a picture of us. We’re standing around, we’re in this big building that we didn’t have [00:06:05] full. And, um, I was thinking, man, where’s this going from here? And, um, [00:06:10] so today we’re at 1700 people. Uh, we’ve grown [00:06:15] grown enormously in the last eight years. We’re continuing to scale. Uh, we’ve got centres, [00:06:20] uh, two in Zimbabwe, 1 in 1 in Harare. We’ve got an IT centre in Vic Falls. [00:06:25] We have an office in Lusaka, Zambia, and then we have a bilingual centre down in Costa Rica. And we’re still [00:06:30] continuing to grow at somewhere between 30 and 40 new team members each [00:06:35] month, and a net of so. So yeah, it’s been fun. We’ve expanded into the UK and uh, [00:06:40] so that’s a, that’s a sorry for the long story, but it kind of tells you where we is, where we are [00:06:45] today.

Payman Langroudi: I’m interested. I want to take you back to when you sold that first company. [00:06:50] Was it for an amount that you could have sort of sat back for a while or not? [00:06:55]

JW Oliver: Well, interesting. Um, by that time, Payman [00:07:00] I had been I had been broke officially once and probably unofficially two more [00:07:05] times. And and at that time I was offered a reasonable [00:07:10] sum to sell it. And I was kind of tired of the business, to be honest with you, I, I scaled [00:07:15] it, I was kind of burnt out. And because we were doing a lot of things, I mean, we were selling like refurbished [00:07:20] view boxes, if you remember, old view boxes, you know, we would. I don’t even know why we’d bring [00:07:25] them in for $2, paint them and sell them for $30 or whatever. But we were doing also chairs and [00:07:30] and we just had an enormous number of, of problems and people. [00:07:35] And so they kept negotiating me down on the price. And finally I really almost [00:07:40] just gave it away. But I was really tired of being in the business. So, no, [00:07:45] I was far, far, far from being able to, um, sit back on a [00:07:50] beach for probably even a month, but, uh, I was able to I was [00:07:55] able to use it as a time to to think about what I wanted to do. And I [00:08:00] knew at that time. It’s funny because you your mind goes through these changes and, [00:08:05] and at that time I thought, you know what? I’m going to have me 1 or 2 employees, uh, I’m going to [00:08:10] operate this really small little niche business, make a decent living, and just [00:08:15] sit on a beach ride off into the sunset. Uh, and then that business grew, [00:08:20] and it’s not. It’s not big. There’s probably less than 20 people in that company now. It stayed pretty [00:08:25] small, uh, but, you know, scaled on the other side, right, with what we have currently now, [00:08:30] uh, to to the place we are. But yeah, it’s been it’s definitely been a journey.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:08:35] I mean, you’re clearly now sort of super ambitious about growth. [00:08:40] So do you feel like something happened was an inflection point where, [00:08:45] you know, you went from being this sort of small business guy to a, I guess, a [00:08:50] medium size or large business. Was that a shift in your mindset? [00:08:55]

JW Oliver: Well, I think it was purpose. Um, because, [00:09:00] you know, you you can get to a point where you have everything [00:09:05] you need and that’s probably realistically a pretty low number, right? I mean, I can pay the bills, I can drive a nice car. [00:09:10] I take vacations when I want to. But when we started employing [00:09:15] the team members in Zim Works and our current organisation, [00:09:20] um, my, my business partner and I said, well, hey, we’re doing other [00:09:25] businesses at the same time, so let’s give 51% back [00:09:30] to the kingdom, both coming from Christian backgrounds. We said, let’s do this with ministries. How can we help orphanages? [00:09:35] How can we help various groups? And so we decided we were going to donate [00:09:40] 51% of our profits. And this is right when we started in 20 2018, 2017. [00:09:45] Um, and I always kind of laugh at that. I tell people for the first 4 [00:09:50] or 5 years that was easy because 51% of nothing was nothing, right? I mean, like, that check [00:09:55] was easy to write. Um, sure. We’ll donate it all if you’d like us to, because it’s nothing. [00:10:00] But now that’s become a significant number that we’re able to to donate, uh, on a regular [00:10:05] basis.

JW Oliver: We actually have a VP of philanthropy, uh, who, who manages all this, [00:10:10] our workplace wellness, our VP of philanthropy systems. So, uh, now it’s a labour of [00:10:15] love. I mean, we’re seeing the passion from not only, uh, the ministries [00:10:20] we do, as I mentioned, through our support, but we’re providing a really needed [00:10:25] service to not only Dental, but other healthcare arenas where we’re helping people [00:10:30] to be able to, to to run their businesses and operate it more efficiently. [00:10:35] Uh, and then the team members, I mean, when you see people, you know, we’re in areas Payman [00:10:40] where the, the unemployment rates can be from anywhere from [00:10:45] 70 to 75% unemployment. Now there’s a lot of people working [00:10:50] in unofficial sectors, you know, selling soaps and oils and cooking utensils and handmade [00:10:55] crafts and things. But official employment is probably around 20 to 30%. And [00:11:00] so when you see people whose lives are changed because now they have a job, [00:11:05] they can pay their rent, they can probably support their children or their or their siblings [00:11:10] or their parents. That’s what really makes an impact. So that’s what really drives me today. [00:11:15] Um, probably more passionate about what I do today than I’ve ever been.

Payman Langroudi: Nonetheless, [00:11:20] giving away half of your EBITDA seems amazing [00:11:25] and so seems crazy. That’s that’s kind of the Christian side, right?

JW Oliver: Well, [00:11:30] and what’s what’s interesting is when you look at my I’ll [00:11:35] take my personal finances. I’m now making more personally than [00:11:40] I ever have in my career, But yet I’m giving away, uh, [00:11:45] you know, these are seven figure numbers. Now that we’re able to give away and make an impact. And [00:11:50] it’s a full time job for somebody. So when you when you see that you’re [00:11:55] able to to live out a greater purpose where you’re not only providing job but providing [00:12:00] a needed service and then also being able to, to to make an impact. [00:12:05] Uh, it really is it changes everything. It changes the way you approach today.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:12:10] guess it’s I guess it’s that thing where it’s a lot nicer giving a present than getting a [00:12:15] present, right? Yeah.

JW Oliver: 100% true.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s [00:12:20] go into support deeds. You are providing outsourced. [00:12:25] You like to call it in-sourced services to dental practices. [00:12:30] The kind of support is things like. What is it? I looked on your website. What does it mean? Director [00:12:35] of first impressions. What does that mean?

JW Oliver: Yeah. So, um, I [00:12:40] think and let me explain the insourcing piece, if you don’t mind just just real quickly. Uh, [00:12:45] we had a friend there. That was there. He was a dentist, and it was probably almost. Well, it was 2019, [00:12:50] I remember. We were we were there. And he says, you know, this is not really outsourcing. This is insourcing [00:12:55] because you’re providing team members who become part of an organisation. For [00:13:00] instance, if a dental office hires Gina to work in their office [00:13:05] from our Zimbabwe, Zambia, Costa Rica offices, we want that person to feel [00:13:10] part of their team. We don’t we don’t we don’t like the word because when you say that word outsourcing, it comes [00:13:15] with a little bit of a stigma, right? Like, okay, I’m going to be calling somebody overseas. I’m not going to be able to understand [00:13:20] what they’re saying. Um, and it’s just cheap, low level labour. Well, [00:13:25] ours is really very high in labour. Uh, again, university educated. [00:13:30] Uh, very we train them to go through these processes. So insourcing [00:13:35] is just that they become part of your interior team, if you will. Um, [00:13:40] the different roles have changed over the years. We first started with [00:13:45] just what we called a Dental coordinator, meaning they could do a host of functions. They [00:13:50] could help with front desk, they could answer the phone, they could help with scheduling. They could do, [00:13:55] uh, you know, the hygiene re care calling people back in for their cleanings, things [00:14:00] like that. And then we got to where it was becoming much more specialised.

JW Oliver: So a director of first impressions, [00:14:05] if you look across the gamut of of dental offices, whether it’s in the US or the UK, uh, [00:14:10] somewhere around 30% if not higher of incoming phone calls just don’t get answered. [00:14:15] So so many practices are saying, well, you know what I need? I need more marketing, [00:14:20] right? I need to spend more on digital advertising. I need to do more mailers. And we [00:14:25] say, well, first of all, just answer your phone. You know, let’s, let’s, let’s just keep it real [00:14:30] simple. Just pick up the calls. Um, you’ll you’ll solve some of your problems [00:14:35] right there. And so, um, what we’ve said is a director of First [00:14:40] Impressions is basically just that because, you know, as an, as a in a dental office can be super busy, [00:14:45] right? I mean, front person, maybe scheduling a call they may be having on the phone, they [00:14:50] may have somebody walking in, somebody walking out. So we say when you have a dedicated resource that [00:14:55] can spend time with you, find out what your needs are, have a little empathy with you on the phone. [00:15:00] Your success rate is going to be much higher to convert that to a to a long term patient. [00:15:05] So that’s, uh, the director of first impressions. And then there’s other things [00:15:10] we’ve got people doing. Uh, remote treatment coordinator work remote tcos who, uh, [00:15:15] we’ve worked with, we’ve, we’ve got all kinds of roles that can be performed, [00:15:20] accounting roles as well, obviously. Um, but but lots that can be done. [00:15:25] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Pay payroll and all of that payroll.

JW Oliver: Human resources. Kind of a [00:15:30] generalist, uh, helping with accounts payable. Uh, we even employ chartered [00:15:35] accountants. So people who are looking to do everything at even a higher level [00:15:40] is possible as well.

Payman Langroudi: So look, we’ve got enlightened. We’ve got, [00:15:45] uh, five of our employees in South Africa and, [00:15:50] um, it works very well for us. They actually we directly employ them ourselves. There’s no there’s [00:15:55] no middle middleman. Um, but if I had to sort of, sort of [00:16:00] straw man, the thing, it’s like, say, what is the worst thing about it? I’d say difficult [00:16:05] for us to get the culture over to [00:16:10] someone we’ve never met. And, you know, over after a while it does get through. But [00:16:15] we have been sometimes surprised, um, where someone’s done something that, [00:16:20] you know, we just wouldn’t think they would ever do and you suddenly realise, wow, I thought [00:16:25] I knew this person. But, you know, at the end of the day, I’ve never met this person. Now our people [00:16:30] are working from home, so they’ve I guess each one got their own [00:16:35] sort of culture, if you like their work ethic or whatever. Yours are all centrally. They [00:16:40] come in. So I guess they’ve got the culture of Zim Works or, you know, support des. Is [00:16:45] that right?

JW Oliver: Yeah. And look, I tell people all the time, [00:16:50] they have to they have to use what works. You know, I’ve had people say, you know, I can get somebody [00:16:55] for half the cost in the Philippines or India or maybe, maybe in down in Durban or Cape Town. [00:17:00] And what we do is, is we say, well, we just have a different model. Um, [00:17:05] we actually bring people in, put them through an interview process. We actually screen [00:17:10] them for language, skill sets, etc. they go through our our Dental coordinator program [00:17:15] so that they do get a skill set. They learn about the different practice management softwares [00:17:20] and and also just voice scripts, things they say and also the process. Um, [00:17:25] and then you’re right. Then we bring them into our culture where they’re going to be seated around other [00:17:30] people, other team members doing very similar tasks. We [00:17:35] employ subject matter experts, so if they’ve got a question, rather than having to call enlightened and say, [00:17:40] hey, I’ve got a question, how do this? They may be able to turn around and ask their subject matter expert, hey, how do I do this? [00:17:45] So it’s a little quicker. And as you know, um, working from [00:17:50] home and in places like Africa can have its challenges when one of the reasons [00:17:55] we don’t is, is many reasons, but but, uh, one, we want to develop that culture. That’s probably [00:18:00] number one. Number two power. You know, you need you need to have power full time and sustainability. [00:18:05] So, uh, we’ve got backup, uh, in place as well.

JW Oliver: Uh, [00:18:10] good internet connections is another one. But you’re right, creating that culture. I mean, Payman, [00:18:15] we’ve done all kinds of things. We now have a what we call the grind. It’s a it’s a coffee shop internal [00:18:20] to our own teams. We have it at all, all of our centres so they can go down. We’ve got a barista [00:18:25] that works there and they can get they can get cappuccinos and coffees. And I see you’re drinking a coffee now. See how it’s important [00:18:30] to have a little coffee And so they can go down and get that. We we do [00:18:35] events, we’ve got team sports, uh, we’ve got the fun zone where they can go down on their [00:18:40] breaks and, uh, play foosball or, uh, you know, they got we got bands that [00:18:45] happen, we got hot dog days. So again, all these things we, we do is intentional [00:18:50] to try to create a culture. I mean, our average age is, uh, just under 27, [00:18:55] 26.4 or 6 or something. And so, you know, they, [00:19:00] they, they really they love the professional environment. They kind of enjoy dressing up [00:19:05] nice and coming to work and getting a sense of self respect, if you will. Um, [00:19:10] so I think that’s why we’re different. But look, all, all modes work. It [00:19:15] really depends on the, the individuals. Some people don’t want to build [00:19:20] a centre because I gotta provide equipment or gotta provide, you [00:19:25] know, the workspace, etc.. So, um, I think we’ve just tried to be focussed in on what our [00:19:30] model is good at too.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s go through like a typical kind of use case. [00:19:35] I’m a practice in the UK. Let’s say I’m doing some [00:19:40] marketing with a with a local marketing agency. There’s leads [00:19:45] coming in. And you’re right, one of the biggest issues is I find the same thing. [00:19:50] There’s no point doing marketing if you’re not following up leads correctly. In fact, I’d say it’s [00:19:55] better not to do marketing, isn’t it? You go to the wrong place faster if people aren’t answering, [00:20:00] and we did a bunch of marketing for our users and listened to the phone calls and [00:20:05] it was so disastrous, um, that we stopped. We just stopped completely [00:20:10] doing that, and we realised we need this other entity that takes care [00:20:15] of this. So so I come, I don’t want to, you know, hire people here. So I come [00:20:20] to you and I say, look, I need a team for what happens. You sort of work out the scope of [00:20:25] the, the project, how how long, how many people so forth. Is that [00:20:30] right?

JW Oliver: Yeah. I think what we would if I, if I was doing what we call a discovery call with you, [00:20:35] I would say, uh, hey, doctor, tell me, tell me what you’re struggling with. You know what? What [00:20:40] are your main points? And you might just say something like, you know what? We’re we’ve got this marketing. [00:20:45] Uh, we got 500 calls. We only picked up 310 of them. [00:20:50] And then of the ones we picked up, we put them into our our CRM or our lead lead manager. [00:20:55] And, uh, you know, we haven’t we got a hundred of them we haven’t even followed up [00:21:00] with yet. And here we are three weeks down the road and and you know that. And that’s the reality of what [00:21:05] happens, right? You miss the calls. Some didn’t get followed up. A couple people didn’t answer the phone. When you [00:21:10] called them back. They set an appointment. They didn’t show up. And so that’s a [00:21:15] really good example. And maybe the best use case for the UK we found is is saying but [00:21:20] but there’s a trust factor here because you do marketing. And I was to come to you and say, you [00:21:25] know what Payman what I would do, I would push all of my new patient calls. [00:21:30] I would have it directed to this certain phone number. Right? I would push all those to our office and [00:21:35] we’re going to put two people together. They’re going to answer the calls from [00:21:40] 7 a.m. to 7 p.m.. So we’re going to catch early and late. And then the other thing they’re going [00:21:45] to do are things like, uh, we’re going to confirm the appointment they made.

JW Oliver: We’re going [00:21:50] to call them at least five times to to follow up on the call that they made. Uh, [00:21:55] we’re going to when they when they do schedule appointment, we’re going to follow up after the appointment [00:22:00] to, to see if they want to proceed with the treatment, etcetera, etcetera. So, you know, the new patient [00:22:05] journey is so important, as you know. Um, you know, I always get [00:22:10] cracked up when these, uh, some of these doctors will, will tell me, oh, yeah, we’re we’re [00:22:15] we’re we’re killing it. We’re seeing 162 new patients a month. I’m going. Well, [00:22:20] your back door must be wide open, because where where are your where [00:22:25] are your recurring patients going? Right. You must be losing them faster than you’re getting them. So there’s something [00:22:30] to be said about. Yeah, you have to have new patients, I get that, but you. There’s something to be said about creating [00:22:35] that user experience for these patients. Because you know this, you [00:22:40] can even send a marketing piece to a potential patient. [00:22:45] They read it, they go, they call your number, you [00:22:50] don’t answer. And they’re saying, man, I’ve really been wanting to do these clear aligners that, that, [00:22:55] that enlightened has listed here. Let me get online and see who else does that. Because you didn’t [00:23:00] answer the phone. They may drift off and they’ll call the next one on the line. Right. They’ll, [00:23:05] they’ll they’ll just pick up.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes that’s the, the decision making. I mean, I’m thinking of we do events. We do [00:23:10] events for dentists. Sometimes we want to do an event in a new city. [00:23:15] I’m trying to look for the best hotels. I contact the three best that I can find. Often [00:23:20] I end up working with the one that responds quickest and is most reactive. Often. [00:23:25]

JW Oliver: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely. It’s an interesting thing because. Because you [00:23:30] forget how important that is sometimes. Um, you know, the the immediacy. [00:23:35] When I’m thinking about the problem, I’m looking for the solution, not 24 hours [00:23:40] later. Even, you know.

JW Oliver: Well, I’ll give you an example. This is a not related, but [00:23:45] it is related. I travel a lot. I’ve had two suitcases. [00:23:50] I’ve had suitcases. I’ve had all of these samsonite’s. I’ve had all the expensive ones. I’ve had [00:23:55] the cheap ones. Um, and when I’ve had to get service on many of those many times, I [00:24:00] have to send an email. They respond 72 hours later, they say, is it [00:24:05] under warranty? Did you file it with your airline? And I’ve got a little brand called noble. [00:24:10] Noble? Uh, I really liked it. I bought a few paces. I had one of the wheels [00:24:15] break. Send them an email within, I don’t know, a couple hours. They responded [00:24:20] back. Oh, Mr. Oliver, we’re so sorry that happened. Uh, we will be sending you an. We’ll send you a replacement [00:24:25] wheel out immediately. Didn’t ask me what happened. Didn’t ask me any questions, but they sent [00:24:30] me probably what amounted to AA3 dollars. We’ll probably what their cost was. [00:24:35] But now I’m like, oh, if I buy another suitcase, it’ll be noble. I mean, no doubt [00:24:40] about it. Right?

Payman Langroudi: You’re with them, with them forever. And you’re right. Yeah. The the way a company [00:24:45] handles a mishap really says a lot to the to the consumer really [00:24:50] does. That’s when you need them.

JW Oliver: More than when you do stuff better. Yeah. The way you handle something bad [00:24:55] says more than when you do stuff, right? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely right. Absolutely right. Tell me this. Um, [00:25:00] if you had to sort of say, what’s the worst thing about using your company, [00:25:05] what would that.

JW Oliver: Uh, I would say it’s the, the training [00:25:10] process, uh, because we’re going to train them on [00:25:15] the basic skill sets. Right? It would. And I would probably compare this to a dentist. You know, [00:25:20] you go to dental school, you get trained to be a dentist. But how good were you your first week? [00:25:25] How good were you your first month?

Payman Langroudi: You wouldn’t want to be that patient, I tell you.

JW Oliver: Yeah, yeah. [00:25:30] Please. No. Not me. Yeah. And and so I think what we have to [00:25:35] we, we we don’t have any long term contracts. We do these 30 day agreements, [00:25:40] but we have an initial 90 day onboarding p piece. And I think [00:25:45] that is the most critical because when I say look here’s Gina [00:25:50] we’ll keep picking on Gina here. But here here’s Gina. She’s been trained uh, [00:25:55] she’s got a very she’s actually done this for another office. Uh, she’s been trained in here. [00:26:00] You’re going to bring her in and you’re going to start using on her your software. Maybe you’re using Dental or [00:26:05] care stack or whatever. And you go, okay, now I gotta train them. The the worst part [00:26:10] is you have to train them for the next 90 days, because if [00:26:15] you’ll spend if somebody from the office will spend an hour a day. [00:26:20] Each morning. The first week. Maybe that’s four days a week and it starts to trail off. [00:26:25] You’re going to find at the end of 30 days, they picked up about 25 or 30% of what you need. [00:26:30] At the end of 60, maybe 50%. At the end of 90, they’re probably 7,580% [00:26:35] of where they need to be. So we try to set that expectation. But most [00:26:40] people are saying, oh, I can’t believe I did this. These people don’t know what they’re doing. Well, they [00:26:45] don’t know what you want them to do. And so that is probably where we struggle [00:26:50] the most is trying to explain that, that there is it’s it’s just like if you hired [00:26:55] somebody at your front desk, somebody’s got to train them, right?

Payman Langroudi: To train them.

JW Oliver: Yeah, you have to train them. So that’s [00:27:00] probably the that’s probably our biggest pain point and struggle is, is getting.

Payman Langroudi: That was when I was, I was [00:27:05] thinking when we were coming up to this point I was thinking, you know, could I use a company like this? And [00:27:10] uh, the first thing that came in my head is we use NetSuite as our, as our, um, [00:27:15] and netsuite’s really tough. And the first thing that came into my head was, [00:27:20] can I would I be able to train your team on NetSuite? [00:27:25] Um, I know we’ve we’ve trained these guys in South Africa on it. Um, and it took a [00:27:30] lot of work. It took a lot of work. So yeah, it’s interesting because that that’s that’s the sort [00:27:35] of pain point that you think that’s you think that’s going to be the obstacle. But you’re right in that even if I had someone sitting [00:27:40] in this office, I’d still have to train that person.

JW Oliver: Yeah. If you hired somebody, uh, [00:27:45] around the corner and they come in and out, you still gotta train them on NetSuite, right? Maybe a little easier because [00:27:50] you’re side by side, potentially. Yeah, yeah, but but the bottom [00:27:55] line is that there has to be some training, uh, as well. And you’re right, NetSuite is a a little [00:28:00] more complicated. As much as they have some sandboxes and some training videos and some libraries, there’s [00:28:05] there’s still a process.

Payman Langroudi: So I want to get into your faith in [00:28:10] so much as is it something that has evolved? [00:28:15] Is it something that you were just born into. And, you know, for the sake of the argument, you know, trained [00:28:20] into. And where I’m really interested is when was your faith most tested? [00:28:25]

JW Oliver: Mm. Oh, wow. Uh, that’s a really good question. [00:28:30] Um, so. You [00:28:35] know, I grew up in, uh, a faith based family. [00:28:40] So we, we went to the Methodist church. We grew up in a small church. Uh, um, even [00:28:45] from coming from a divorced family. Well, my mom made sure on Sundays we were [00:28:50] we were in church. Right. And, uh, we, of course, you had your Sunday best on and and, uh, you look the part. [00:28:55] Um, I definitely through high school, um, through [00:29:00] through through university and even post [00:29:05] schooling. Uh, I just kind of fell away. I wasn’t I wasn’t antagonistic, [00:29:10] I wasn’t, uh, you know, I didn’t become an atheist or agnostic. I just like, okay, well, [00:29:15] Faith’s over there and and not. I have to say, [00:29:20] um, there was a time I was, I was in it was in the summer [00:29:25] of 94. Um, I was business was not going that [00:29:30] good. I was weighing about, oh, £80 [00:29:35] more than I do right now. Which which is, I don’t know, 40, 45 kilos greater than I am [00:29:40] today. And and, uh, I was, I was, I was in a relationship that I [00:29:45] didn’t like. And, and my father passed away and, uh, kind of suddenly of [00:29:50] a heart attack and, and, uh, in the summer of 94 and a young guy, 62 and [00:29:55] so or 61 at the time. And I remember thinking, man, what am I [00:30:00] doing? You know, and that was when God just really kind of stirred in me that [00:30:05] I could live a different life.

JW Oliver: I could be in a relationship that I wanted to [00:30:10] be. I could treat my body as a temple and and eat better and and you [00:30:15] know and do different there and and I realised I was in love with this girl who’s [00:30:20] now my wife. We’ve been married 31 years now and, and so I just decided to make a holistic [00:30:25] change. But I think it was a nudging, uh, at the time, through some, through some tragedy [00:30:30] of loss of my father and, and through some realisation that I really [00:30:35] didn’t have a, a life based on anything. Right? I was just I was just going through the [00:30:40] motions. Um, and so that was a, that was a big, a big turning point with [00:30:45] me. And, and I tell you, what’s happened since then is my [00:30:50] Christian faith has become stronger because [00:30:55] every time something, any type of calamity happens and they’re all, you know, I [00:31:00] remember I read one time they said, you’re either you’re either coming out of a [00:31:05] problem, you’re going, you’re going into a problem, or you’re in the middle [00:31:10] of the problem. Right? It’s one of those three. You’re coming out, you’re in the middle or you’re you’re you’re coming out into one. [00:31:15] And I think that’s true. And I and I think what I have to do every time something happens [00:31:20] that I see is what short, you know, short [00:31:25] term could seem bad.

JW Oliver: You’re like, what do I need to learn from this? And, uh, and that’s what it’s really [00:31:30] taught me. I can I can lean on God, I can lean on Christ [00:31:35] and say, hey, man, I, I need to, uh, I need to figure out [00:31:40] what it is I can do. You know, I now carry these around with me all the time. It’s, uh. I don’t [00:31:45] know if you can see that. It’s my little Jesus. It’s very small. Um, I hand these out [00:31:50] all the time. I buy them and just hand them out, and I say, you know, sometimes, sometimes to get through the day, I [00:31:55] just need a little Jesus. And so it’s really helped me to stay centred. It’s [00:32:00] helped me to, um, I won’t get too deep into it, [00:32:05] but one of my, one of my favourite scriptures is Ephesians 429. It says, let no unwholesome talk come out [00:32:10] of your mouth, but only that which builds others up. And to me. Payman that I have [00:32:15] to look at how I treat people. Um. The words matter. [00:32:20] Words we say matter. And as a leader of an organisation, and [00:32:25] again, I think there’s a big difference between a leader and a manager. A leader of an organisation, the person casting [00:32:30] the vision. Man, you can lower the temperature in a room with just 2 or 3 words, or you [00:32:35] can raise that temperature.

Payman Langroudi: Body language even. Right.

JW Oliver: Body. Oh, yeah. Just coming in. [00:32:40] I mean, what if I came to this podcast and I said, hey, Payman, how you doing today? You know. [00:32:45] Yeah. Boy, it’s good to be here. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for having me. You’d be like, [00:32:50] how do I get this guy off of here as quickly as I can? So, yeah. And so, [00:32:55] so to me, those simple things, uh, I love [00:33:00] the I love they asked when they asked Jesus, you know, what was the what was the most important scripture? And [00:33:05] he says, uh, love your neighbour with all thy heart and, uh, and and, [00:33:10] uh, and love God. And I think that was learning to love our neighbours and learning to love [00:33:15] ourself, uh, has been real important. It’s been that really good journey for me as well.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:33:20] think it’s it’s it’s a beautiful thing that you have a faith. It’s clear that, uh, it helps [00:33:25] you in your life. Yeah. I guess when, when you, when you’re a little bit lost, you kind of look [00:33:30] in that direction and get answers. Um. I don’t have a faith. Yeah, and it’s actually [00:33:35] quite hard. It’s actually quite hard. It can be hard. Um, I’ve got a friend. He’s a devout, you know, sort of, [00:33:40] uh, he’s he’s actually a muslim. Um, yeah. And sometimes he’s going through something difficult, [00:33:45] and suddenly his eyes were kind of glazed over and not in a bad way, in a nice way. [00:33:50] And he’ll say, but you know what? I know it’s going to be okay. And I’m thinking, well, how the hell do you know it’s going to [00:33:55] be okay? And with him, you know, he’s he’s got his connection to God. But [00:34:00] how do you process things like terrible things happening? [00:34:05] Kid gets born, dies the next day, you know, because of a bomb dropping on top of him or [00:34:10] something. What do you. How do you process that? Is that okay? God moves in mysterious [00:34:15] ways, if you like. But what about for that kid? I mean, what what happened there from [00:34:20] the God perspective?

JW Oliver: Yeah. Look, I think that’s as I think anybody of [00:34:25] any faith. That’s probably the hardest one, right? I mean, when we see, uh, why is there a war in [00:34:30] the Ukraine? Why is there war in Gaza? Why are why is there a shooting in Washington, D.C.? [00:34:35] You know, all this stuff that you, you, you realise [00:34:40] or you try to understand why? You know, people say, why would a good God do that? And I always say, well, why would a bad [00:34:45] devil do that? Right? So from coming from my background, we [00:34:50] believe that the the fall of man was, you know, Adam and Eve in, in the garden [00:34:55] and that and that by, by taking that bite out of the apple. And that [00:35:00] could be an analogy. But by, by stepping into the unknown, it revealed [00:35:05] the evil in the world. And and I don’t think God allows [00:35:10] bad stuff to happen. I think there’s evil in the world that does bad things. [00:35:15] Um, and I’ve had that stuff happen in my life. You know, my my wife lost her mother just [00:35:20] a few years ago. Suddenly it’s like, well, why did that happen? She lost a brother to a a drug overdose [00:35:25] suddenly at age 50. Wow. Why did that happen? Um, and so I [00:35:30] struggle with that one. But ultimately, I think it comes around to, uh, [00:35:35] in in my faith, it’s. I have to have trust. And [00:35:40] that’s the faith in something greater.

JW Oliver: Right? In that there is a greater [00:35:45] good. Uh, to be done. And all I can do is have that faith and [00:35:50] also be a light. I mean, have you ever. I’m guessing your friend, too. And hopefully with [00:35:55] me, I know I, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been in a room Payman and I’ve said, uh, [00:36:00] talking to somebody and they’re just going on and on. Says, are you a Christian? [00:36:05] And nine times out of ten, maybe 99 times out of 100, they go, how [00:36:10] did you know that? And I say, man, it’s just written all over your face. Your joy, [00:36:15] your your your zeal for life, the way you smile, the way you put [00:36:20] yourself out there. And I think it’s true because when you have this, I’m not saying other [00:36:25] people can’t have it, but I think when you’ve got this light inside of you that shines pretty [00:36:30] bright, then it’s just it attracts other people as well. And I believe that to be [00:36:35] true. And I don’t look, I’ve, I’ve got great Muslim friends, I’ve got great non-believers, [00:36:40] I’ve got some really good friends who are Buddhists. Uh, and we can have great conversations [00:36:45] about who’s right and who’s wrong. But at the end of the day, I think you just got to love everybody, right? [00:36:50] I, I love people of no faith. I love people of other faiths. And I think that’s that’s [00:36:55] really the bottom line.

Payman Langroudi: I like that, I like that. Back to support [00:37:00] deeds. What are the headlines like? How many humans work for you now. So [00:37:05] you’ve got the two centres in Zimbabwe, one in Zambia, one in, um, Costa [00:37:10] Rica.

JW Oliver: Correct?

Payman Langroudi: How many humans are we talking?

JW Oliver: Uh, 1700. [00:37:15] We just went over the 1700 mark. Uh, our biggest one is [00:37:20] in Harare, which is in Zimbabwe, where we started. Uh, we opened up an IT support [00:37:25] centre for healthcare. So we we do it support for medical dental facilities [00:37:30] who are needing help with their, you know, merging their PMS with their imaging [00:37:35] software or they’re just having IT problems. Uh, so we developed that and then uh, [00:37:40] our bilingual centre in Costa Rica and then and then Zambia is growing quite rapidly, uh, [00:37:45] just because the availability of space there. And we’ll open up one more geography. [00:37:50] Uh, we haven’t announced it yet, but, uh, the first of the year, we’ve got one more spot that [00:37:55] we’ll go into, and, and then we’ll kind of settle into that, uh, at that point.

Payman Langroudi: Which [00:38:00] side of the world.

JW Oliver: Uh, be in Africa. Yeah. We’re looking at one more in Africa. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:38:05] then what about, like, the org chart? How many people do you have centrally [00:38:10] in the US?

JW Oliver: Uh, us very, very few. We’ve got, uh, I believe [00:38:15] about ten people. Maybe there’s 11 in the ten. I think it is in the US. [00:38:20] Uh, and the rest are all in Africa. And we have Gina in the UK.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [00:38:25] wow. I assumed there’d be, like, a big sort of head office in the US.

JW Oliver: No, [00:38:30] uh, we actually do not even have an office. We work remotely from our. Everybody [00:38:35] from home. Um, and, uh, then most [00:38:40] of our support teams and our administrative supports, I mean, we have them in each office. [00:38:45] Office, as you can imagine. You’ve got to have it support and talent acquisition and human resources [00:38:50] and whatnot. And then our Harare office probably has the biggest where they have, uh, [00:38:55] support teams there too.

Payman Langroudi: But then the sales role, your internal like your you selling [00:39:00] your services to dentists. Is that done from Harare as well?

JW Oliver: Uh, both. We’ve got, [00:39:05] uh, some, some sales executives in the US, uh, only about four that that [00:39:10] go to events and and participate in different, uh, you know, as you know, there’s [00:39:15] so many events in the US on a weekly basis. So we, we attend probably 40, 35 [00:39:20] or so a year. Um, and then we have a big, uh, what we call business [00:39:25] development teams and support teams for the sales in our Harare office, [00:39:30] which, uh, there’s probably another and, and Zambia as well. There’s probably another [00:39:35] 15, 12 that support the sales from that angle as well.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:39:40] would you say each of the operators in in Zimbabwe, for instance, works fully [00:39:45] for, for one company? Does that mean what if I need the guy one [00:39:50] day a week? Does he not. He works for another company for the other four days a week. Is that right?

JW Oliver: Uh, [00:39:55] yeah. We don’t we don’t do any part. Well, I shouldn’t say that. We’ve got a program now with our executive [00:40:00] assistants. We do provide personal assistants, executive assistants to to a large group. [00:40:05] We do do a half and half. So you could you could select hey, I need 20 hours a week and [00:40:10] then somebody else will work the other 20. But in the Dental space it’s full time only. So we [00:40:15] provide dental offices with a full time person. So they are fully employed [00:40:20] and tethered to one, uh, company on [00:40:25] this.

Payman Langroudi: On this pod, we like to talk about mistakes. And generally the guest would be [00:40:30] a dentist. So we could talk about clinical mistakes so that we can all learn from them. But [00:40:35] I’d like you you know what comes to mind when you think of business mistakes. And [00:40:40] we could all learn from yours.

JW Oliver: Um, yeah. You [00:40:45] know what I, I well, probably two things. Um, number [00:40:50] one, I think when, when, when and I’m going back to my equipment business [00:40:55] and the 2000. Um. I [00:41:00] think whenever I didn’t react fast enough to changing economics [00:41:05] when when the business slowed down. As an example, I was having this [00:41:10] conversation with a couple of people I used to work with yesterday. Um, and, and [00:41:15] matter of fact, it’s we’re the old company that I sold. And I said, you know, the biggest mistakes I made was, [00:41:20] was hanging on to a large group of people while the business was in decline. [00:41:25] So, you know, let’s say you had 80 people working and yet the business was off by [00:41:30] 30%. You’re like, okay, we’re going to we’re going to get our business back. And and [00:41:35] some of those really broke me. And, and, um, that was on me for, for trying [00:41:40] to, uh, invest in those people. In reality, I needed to protect the business. [00:41:45] So, so I would say not reacting quick enough to changing, uh, [00:41:50] economics or industry trends is number one. And I think that could apply [00:41:55] to a dentist as well, right? Maybe he says, I’m not going to do those, uh, [00:42:00] get into those clear aligners or I’m and or I’m going to keep doing clear aligners and nobody’s [00:42:05] buying them. And yet I’ve got five people that are focussed on clear aligners. Um, and then the [00:42:10] other one would be making sure and this is probably the biggest [00:42:15] one, you know, I love what Zig Ziglar said years ago. He said failure [00:42:20] is not a person, it’s just an event. And we [00:42:25] fail. I fail a little bit every day. And I definitely have had big failures, [00:42:30] financial, um, relational friendships. And I [00:42:35] think the key is to to really learn to, to to reflect and learn from those, [00:42:40] those mistakes and make sure they don’t happen again. So maybe a failure [00:42:45] to learn from your mistakes would be the biggest one. And reacting quick to those those changing economic times [00:42:50] too.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting that you say that, you know, because your first point, [00:42:55] the resilience, if you like, definitely is one of the [00:43:00] key skills or one of the key sort of sort of important things that you need in business to stick [00:43:05] at it and keep showing up every day. Um, but as the environment [00:43:10] changes, sometimes resilience, if you’re that guy who never gives up, [00:43:15] it could be your biggest strength. But it could also be your biggest weakness.

JW Oliver: Your biggest weakness. [00:43:20] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I think.

JW Oliver: Pride gets in our way. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’ve been guilty of it as well. Not even [00:43:25] pride. It’s like, I don’t know that giving up is an option. You know, like [00:43:30] it’s my blind spot. It’s it’s also it’s also my biggest strength as well because the first [00:43:35] six years of the company, we were making losses and just, just, you know, just trying to get through it. [00:43:40] You know, someone else might have given up after two years. Yeah. And so knowing, you know, [00:43:45] I guess that’s the skill, the pivoting kind of thing. And when you’ve had new businesses [00:43:50] and you’ve had a few, How long would you give it before? I mean, the [00:43:55] nature of entrepreneurship is you always. You’re so optimistic. You [00:44:00] always think the next thing that I’m going to do is going to be the big thing. How long do you give [00:44:05] it before deciding? How do you know what? How does one decide that.

JW Oliver: You know [00:44:10] that that that’s a that’s a really good question, because I [00:44:15] probably have always, uh, tried [00:44:20] to long with businesses that were, were, were failing. I remember I, I bought a, I [00:44:25] bought a gym years ago and it was struggling and I was like, oh, I’m, [00:44:30] I can make this work. You know, I’m, I’m super smart. And I was, gosh, [00:44:35] this is 20, 30 years ago now, 25 years ago, I remember I can make this work. I’m I’m great [00:44:40] at marketing. I’m a people person. And and, you know, I went in there and, um, [00:44:45] probably stayed around a year or two long and [00:44:50] realise, man, I probably lost half $1 million trying to make this thing [00:44:55] work. You know, I just kept pouring into it and pouring into it when everybody [00:45:00] around you, including my wife, was like, what are you doing? Like, give [00:45:05] it up. Right. Let’s just close it down. But you’re like, no, I think I can make it happen. [00:45:10] And that comes from I don’t know if you’re familiar with, like, the Enneagram charts. I’m a, I’m [00:45:15] a I’m a seven on the Enneagram. You know, I love new stuff. And I want to make it happen. And I want [00:45:20] to I’m excited about this new venture, and I’m always optimistic, but that’s definitely can be a detriment. [00:45:25] So what I would say to that is making sure you surround yourself with really [00:45:30] good people.

JW Oliver: For instance, I’ve got a really good, uh, CEO Rick and helps keep [00:45:35] me grounded in like, you know, he’s very he’s very tactful about it, but he’s like, yeah, you [00:45:40] think we should really do that? I don’t know about that. That’s. Let’s think through that. Right? You’re [00:45:45] like, okay, well, maybe I better heed a little warning to that or that’s not [00:45:50] working out. I do believe I act a lot faster now. I remember, uh, [00:45:55] a little over a year ago, we were going to give the the veterinary industry a try. And [00:46:00] so we went to some events, spent some good money, did some marketing, and really, we either [00:46:05] we just didn’t know enough about the business or it just wasn’t there. But I quickly [00:46:10] was able to say, all right, I’m done with that. You know, let’s let’s move on. And so I think [00:46:15] being able to, to to learn to make quicker decisions is good because you’re right, you’re going to be [00:46:20] the same as me. Like I can pull it out. I can do it. I’m just going to sell more. You know, [00:46:25] I used to say, I’m going to sell us out of this problem. It’s like, that’s probably a bad a bad [00:46:30] angle to go. It’s not a good action plan.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a similar question with people, isn’t [00:46:35] it? You know, like when I look around at my friends who run companies, everyone does it differently. [00:46:40] Some people will hire, hire, hire and fire quickly as well until [00:46:45] they find the right person. And then you get other people. I’m a bit like this. [00:46:50] I’ll make excuses for the person. I’ll blame myself. I’ll change their role trying [00:46:55] to make it work. And I guess it’s part of the same issue about not giving up, right? Um, [00:47:00] and, you know, it’s a similar thing with people as it is with, um, with, with projects. [00:47:05] But I had do you know, uh, Pearl. Pearl AI.

JW Oliver: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:47:10]

Payman Langroudi: I had a fear on the, the CEO on this pod, and I was asking him, [00:47:15] I just had to fire someone once who had done nothing wrong. Um, [00:47:20] it’s simply the job had overtaken what this person could [00:47:25] do. And I remember thinking to myself, I will never fire this person because when Covid came, [00:47:30] they were just brilliant, brilliant, absolutely brilliant. You know, they said, look, don’t even pay me. [00:47:35] Um, whenever you get out of it, I thought, this is someone that’s going to be with me for life. [00:47:40] And then three years later, I’m thinking I need to fire this person. So I asked a fear. [00:47:45] I said, have you ever you know, he’s got a couple of unicorns. I said to him, um, [00:47:50] have you ever had to fire anyone who didn’t deserve it? And, you know kind of what you said, right? You had [00:47:55] this big team and you had, you know, not not all of those people or the ones that you should have gotten rid of [00:48:00] would have deserved it. They just, you know, the market had turned. And he said, every [00:48:05] single person I’ve ever fired has been like that. I was like, what do you mean? And he [00:48:10] said, look, uh, if they’ve done something wrong, they would have been fired by someone like their line manager [00:48:15] well below me. Yeah, right. Right. And he said he’s done it like, 300 [00:48:20] times.

JW Oliver: Well, you know, that’s interesting.

Payman Langroudi: I, I lost innocence.

JW Oliver: That’s that’s [00:48:25] a good I mean, that’s a really good point because, um, I’m like I’m, [00:48:30] I’m, I would lean towards more like you like, oh, that’s I’m what am I doing wrong? I’m not managing. I’m not leading [00:48:35] this person well. But you know, there’s there’s a there’s a couple of reasons [00:48:40] I think you have to let, let people, uh, go or relegate them to a different [00:48:45] role. Uh, one would be there. Just not a good culture fit, you know? And [00:48:50] I’ll just use a silly example. But, you know, you go to events and your leadership [00:48:55] team is getting up and having dinner, and they’re getting up and going to the gym at 530 the next [00:49:00] morning. Then there’s that one guy who stayed out and got drunk till two in the morning, and he waddles [00:49:05] in the conventions at 930. You know, you start to look around and go, is that person a good fit for our [00:49:10] organisation? Right. Is he does he have the same vision and values as where we’re going? Again I’m not. [00:49:15] Look, I drink too I’m not saying drinking is a bad thing. I’m just saying people have different ways that they [00:49:20] they look at things. And then I think there’s people, you know, we just we just started challenging [00:49:25] our executive leadership team, um, because we have an objective [00:49:30] by 2032 to get to 20,000 team members. So we’ve got a very aggressive growth [00:49:35] plan.

JW Oliver: And, uh, we’re, we’re marching towards that. But next [00:49:40] year we’re going to have some tremendous growth. It could be as high as about 60%. And [00:49:45] I’ve said, um, are you the person who can lead an organisation [00:49:50] that employs 3000 people in your team, whatever that [00:49:55] department was? And I’m trying to get people to self evaluate a little bit as well [00:50:00] to say, are you the right person? And, you know, somebody may come to you and say, [00:50:05] hey, you need to find a replacement for me. I’m not I can’t, I don’t I don’t even want to [00:50:10] do this because a lot of people, you know, Payman a lot of people will tell you, man, I want to grow. I want to [00:50:15] grow a grow this massive company, $100 million and making $10 million [00:50:20] a year. But they really don’t. They’re really happy with their status quo, [00:50:25] and they don’t really want you to upset that. They may agree with you on the rah rah side, but [00:50:30] in reality, they don’t have the capacity nor really the drive to do that. So, uh, [00:50:35] as a fear pointed out, I think I think what you have to do is, is say, do I have [00:50:40] the right people on the team? And you may have to let people go that have done nothing wrong. Um, they’re [00:50:45] just not the right fit to where you have the vision for where the company is going to.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. [00:50:50] Very interesting that you go from running a [00:50:55] company of 20 people to running a company of 20,000 people in [00:51:00] a few years.

JW Oliver: And look, I questioned myself. I actually had a conversation earlier [00:51:05] this morning. I was like, you know, I don’t know if I’m the right guy. I don’t know if I’m the visionary to run a company that size. [00:51:10] I may have to bring somebody in and run it at a different level. I think self-awareness [00:51:15] is big.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about authoring. Authoring books, because to me it seems [00:51:20] like I mean, even if I was able to write one book, there’s [00:51:25] like, you know, they say there’s one book and everyone. Um, what’s the process [00:51:30] of even writing a book? Do you find it really easy? Like, is it is it [00:51:35] the words just flow from you, or do you use a ghost-writer or do you, uh, dictate [00:51:40] into a recording machine. How do you do it? What’s your process?

JW Oliver: I’ve done [00:51:45] it both ways. Um, and now we’re in the process. [00:51:50] I’m actually in the process of a couple of more books I want to do next year. One of them is more personal. Um, [00:51:55] uh, kind of a life, a little bit of a more of a life story. And then the others are some industry, and [00:52:00] I guess, you know what it was initially, I wanted to be [00:52:05] this guy who had a typewriter. And, you know, I blocked out the world. [00:52:10] And I sat on a beach, and I.

Payman Langroudi: Romantic. The romantic.

JW Oliver: Yeah. And I was [00:52:15] just visioning. And I closed my eyes and I could just type and write for hours. But [00:52:20] the reality is, my mind doesn’t work like that. My mind drifts into, oh, [00:52:25] I need to call Payman this afternoon at two. And then I start writing and go, oh man, I need to go pick up the [00:52:30] laundry, you know? And so that doesn’t work for me. So what I what we have now is we have [00:52:35] a creative team, um, that are creative writers. And so what I [00:52:40] do is, is I now set out what the agenda looks like, right? Like, [00:52:45] here’s the headlines, here’s the main chapters, and then here’s the the bits and pieces, and then [00:52:50] let them craft the chapters and the words. And then I can go edit and change that. [00:52:55] And I feel that’s better because I know what I want to say, but I’m and [00:53:00] I would think I have an okay vocabulary and I can write okay, and I can do it, [00:53:05] but I don’t want to do it, if that makes sense. Yeah. So it’s like I have the I have [00:53:10] the vision of what I want to get on paper, but then I need to let somebody else really put the pen to paper.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:53:15] what’s the motivation? I mean, let’s start with the sort of the business motivation for writing [00:53:20] your book. Are you trying to sell books and profit on the sale of the book? [00:53:25] No. You’re giving the books away to.

JW Oliver: Yeah, we give them away. Uh, I think it’s [00:53:30] two things. I think one, it does position yourself as a, as an authority [00:53:35] in the role. And, and quite frankly, we probably well we are we’re the biggest we’re the biggest [00:53:40] Dental outsourcing company in the United States or the UK, right? I mean, we we definitely [00:53:45] are positioned in that. So I can write from a position of authority, at least in that realm. [00:53:50] So that’s number one. You know, you yeah. You know I get amazed at people will come by [00:53:55] and they’ll pick up a book and sometimes they’re like, would you sign this for me? I’m going, look, this is not a this [00:54:00] is just a it’s like a lead magnet for me, right? I’m like, okay. Um, so I [00:54:05] think it’s I think it’s number one to position yourself, uh, from a position of authority. And [00:54:10] then I think the second thing is educating, uh, we do try to write them so [00:54:15] that the questions you’re asking right now, we put it into a I thought I [00:54:20] had one right here. It’s a, you know, it’s an easy read, 100 pages or something. You could read it on an aeroplane or [00:54:25] two flights or something to let somebody know, hey, here’s what we do, right? And here’s how we [00:54:30] do it, and here’s why we’re different. So I think it’s those two reasons. It’s it’s definitely, [00:54:35] to to put yourself in that position of authority and then also [00:54:40] to educate people. I’ve got a personal one. I want to write that. That’s more about my journey and [00:54:45] overcoming failure and coming from a divorced family and, and and I want [00:54:50] I might see that as again, not selling books, but could I help somebody? Could I really help somebody who’s [00:54:55] going through a difficult time to realise this is just a blip on the radar screen? [00:55:00] It doesn’t matter, you know, it’s just a small piece.

Payman Langroudi: I think coming from a divorced family [00:55:05] has, I don’t want to call it like an upside as such. But do you think that you’re sort of more [00:55:10] self-reliant, more grown up, because you [00:55:15] came from a divorced family? You know, you know how they say pressure kind of forms you. And [00:55:20] sometimes I worry with my kids, you know, they’ve got it too easy in a way. You know, um, I remember [00:55:25] when Covid happened. I remember thinking, this is the first challenge my kids [00:55:30] have ever been through. You know, suddenly schools closed. And in a way I was [00:55:35] happy about it. Of course, I wasn’t happy about people dying, but in a way I was happy about it just [00:55:40] for them to see. Because, you know, I come from Iran. We had a revolution. There was a, you know, [00:55:45] a fire with loads of people, died in a cinema, then caught, um, soldiers on the [00:55:50] streets and helicopters in the air and people getting executed and and then and then run [00:55:55] away. Come here. Um, when you came here, you were very well prepared for [00:56:00] difficulty because you’d had so much difficulty before. Um, so from that [00:56:05] perspective, do you think, do you think your, your childhood and the divorced family, with all of its issues, [00:56:10] formed you into a stronger person?

JW Oliver: Oh, there’s no doubt about [00:56:15] it. And and to a side note on that, I’ve, I’ve met so many Persians, uh, [00:56:20] Iranians that that I’ve met over the years. And most of them are quite successful. And, [00:56:25] and I think it’s because they saw this tragedy. They saw these things happen. [00:56:30] I think it was the reason there was so many, uh, successful people that came out of World War one, World [00:56:35] War Two, a lot of these, these the, you know, the, as I say, the last great generation because they [00:56:40] had this. And you’re right, if you think about if you think about our children’s lives, [00:56:45] my my kids are both around 30 years old. They’ve they’ve not faced any [00:56:50] wars. They’ve not faced any famines. They’ve not seen really big economic downturns. [00:56:55] You know, even the oh seven call that a bubble, right? I don’t think they haven’t really [00:57:00] seen anything. That’s, that’s you know, they haven’t seen violence in the really the streets and [00:57:05] they just haven’t seen any of that. And so you’re right, I think it, uh, um, why [00:57:10] we want to protect our kids. I think at the same time we, we’re like, well, yeah, you need to experience [00:57:15] some of this tragedy. But then his parents would go, well, wait a minute. Not that not that much. Hey, hang on. That’s that’s too much. Yeah. [00:57:20] Dial that back just a bit. Um, but but, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tough times [00:57:25] make soft people, right? That that old.

JW Oliver: Time. It’s it’s it’s exactly right. [00:57:30] And uh, and so, yeah, no, there’s no doubt. I mean, I [00:57:35] always tell, I think, I think coming from a poor family, [00:57:40] yet we had we had everything. I mean, I was in church on Sundays. We we had something to eat on the table. [00:57:45] We got one new pair of tennis shoes every year. Um, I went to a very, [00:57:50] uh, very, very poor elementary school with a bunch of kids who are still great friends [00:57:55] today. Right. I’ve learned to adapt to all these different levels, but no [00:58:00] doubt about it, you know, you know that diamonds are made under pressure, [00:58:05] right? And I think that when you look at that, how [00:58:10] you grew up, single parent, uh, mother and dad, uh, divorced [00:58:15] and, and really going through difficult times on my own. I think [00:58:20] you’re right. It does it does form you into who you are today and just make you a [00:58:25] much better person. You know, I the only thing. It’s funny how those little things affect you. [00:58:30] I gotta tell you this little funny story. I was, um, ten years ago. I was at a marriage conference. [00:58:35] My wife and I. I was here in Dallas, and I remember the, uh, the gentleman speaking. [00:58:40]

JW Oliver: He was talking about what happens when people go through divorces. He goes many [00:58:45] times if they if a parent has left them when they get married, they’re going to always [00:58:50] think that their spouse is going to leave them. And I literally my wife was sitting next to me and [00:58:55] I looked at her and went. I didn’t even realise for the first 20 years of our marriage [00:59:00] that I have always been afraid that you were going to leave me. Wow. Right. That I [00:59:05] was going to wake up because my dad literally left in the middle of the night and was gone. And, I mean, we [00:59:10] ended up with a great relationship as a father. But, you know, I thought that was going to happen to me. And until [00:59:15] that guy said that ten years ago, I was like, why am I so worried about, [00:59:20] is my wife going to be is she going to run off with somebody else? Is she love me? And I realised it was [00:59:25] back directed at my father. So yeah, we learned a lot as we go through and realising that, [00:59:30] uh, everything has leaves an indelible mark on us as well.

Payman Langroudi: But you managed [00:59:35] to keep the contact with your dad, did you?

JW Oliver: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, we actually had a great relationship. [00:59:40] Uh, he suffered. He was manic depressive, so he suffered from some some issues until the [00:59:45] day he died. But, uh, I spent my summers with him. He lived in North Carolina. I was in Texas, and. [00:59:50] But I spent, uh, probably 10 or 12, probably 12 years in a row. I spent my [00:59:55] whole summers out there. So he was really. And he helped form me, who I was a lot with, with discipline. [01:00:00] And it was yes, sir and no, sir. He came from a military background. So, you know, I picked up a [01:00:05] lot of good things from him, and I picked up a lot of good things from my mom, which which is how we get to where we are today. [01:00:10]

Payman Langroudi: You know, on that subject of of pressure forming, you, uh, I [01:00:15] know these days, uh, immigration is kind of, uh, it seems like it’s been [01:00:20] it’s been big up as the biggest issue in all these Western countries. Um, [01:00:25] but Sometimes, you know, you talk to the Uber driver who’s a [01:00:30] guy from Zambia for the sake of the argument. And you know [01:00:35] how you when you look at an older person, you sometimes forget that older [01:00:40] person was a younger person 20 years ago or 30 years ago. You just you just see them as that. And [01:00:45] when you look at a cab driver, you just see him as a cab driver. Um, but you [01:00:50] have a little conversation with him and you realise that this guy has a degree, [01:00:55] uh, was an engineer. He’s gotten up and come all halfway [01:01:00] across the world, which makes him, you know, a get up and go kind of person. You [01:01:05] know, maybe Uber driving for a for six months while he supports his family and, [01:01:10] you know, maybe starts a business, let’s say, for the sake of the argument. Um, it’s [01:01:15] interesting it’s interesting that often, you know, I don’t know, man, with everything [01:01:20] going on in the world today, um, I feel like immigrants are being used as, like [01:01:25] a cheap shot. Yeah, and we’ve had it in the UK before, you know, maybe 15, [01:01:30] 20 years ago. It was. They used to blame everything on, uh, people claiming benefits, you [01:01:35] know, uh, single moms, single moms used to, used to get benefits. Some of them used to get a [01:01:40] a council house. And people would say, yeah, these women, these these girls go and have children just to [01:01:45] get a council. And, you know, blaming someone, always blaming someone for the problem. And interestingly, always looking [01:01:50] down, not very often looking up. Yeah, exactly. [01:01:55] Um, how’s your view? How do you feel about everything going on in [01:02:00] the world? I mean, we don’t want to get politics, but you’re a politician.

JW Oliver: No, no, I think it’s a I think it’s.

Payman Langroudi: A politics [01:02:05] major. Yeah.

JW Oliver: No. And yeah, 100%. Yeah. I, I’m [01:02:10] always very interested in it. I think that I think what’s happened is we’ve crossed [01:02:15] a line between, uh, immigration and illegal immigration. Right. [01:02:20] Um, my, my wife’s own father at at [01:02:25] two years old, uh, was four years old. Was on a boat that came [01:02:30] from England to the US. He came with his mother and, uh, they were divorced and she resettled. [01:02:35] They ended up in Iowa. And. And his name is on Ellis Island. You know, it’s on the documents [01:02:40] when he came across in Ellis Island. And so, you know, I see things like that. [01:02:45] And those are great stories. But I always say they did it legally, right. They came across, they did it [01:02:50] the right way. They got the right papers and and look some of the I’ll give you a quick example. [01:02:55] Um, 6 or 8, eight months ago, I was taking an Uber from the airport [01:03:00] back home and a nice young man, BJ from Nepal, driving [01:03:05] the car. And I’m like, where are you from? He said, oh, I’m from Kathmandu. I said, oh, I went to Kathmandu a few years [01:03:10] ago, did Everest base camp. We got to talking about all this stuff and, and uh, he said, yeah, I’m a, [01:03:15] I’m actually, uh, have an engineering degree or a computer science degree, and I’d like to get into [01:03:20] this.

JW Oliver: I’m like, well, we’re looking to hire somebody at our imaging company there. I said the last [01:03:25] I talked to them, they were looking for somebody in it. So, um, I just said, well, here, I introduce [01:03:30] you to our general manager. And they went from there. Well, he’s he’s working there now, and he’s actually, uh, you kind of [01:03:35] understand this. He actually went out and is now installing cone beam X-rays and bringing them back in [01:03:40] for refurbishing. And I’m thinking, but this guy works hard. He was he was driving an Uber. [01:03:45] He was looking he was working two jobs at the time. Now he’s got a full time job. I think he [01:03:50] still does some driving on the weekends whatnot. But that’s a good story of immigration. And he also [01:03:55] came here legally. Uh, so I think we love those stories. [01:04:00] And those those typically are the stories you love to hear about [01:04:05] because they’re becoming self-made people as well. They’re making a difference, changing their family and [01:04:10] making a bigger impact. So I, I think those I think immigrants, uh, [01:04:15] if you want to hire some great people, it would be starting right there as well.

Payman Langroudi: I think [01:04:20] the US is amazing in that sense that I’ve got cousins who moved to the US. I don’t know, not [01:04:25] four years ago now, but four years ago, 20 years ago. And I remember, [01:04:30] you know, they’ve been in the country for four years and they’re like USA, they’re proper, [01:04:35] fully integrated into the US. Yeah. And then [01:04:40] again over here, it’s actually almost the opposite. It’s [01:04:45] almost like I mean things have changed. Things have changed a lot here. But there was a time I remember [01:04:50] in university thinking, you know, the dean of this university could never be anything other than a [01:04:55] white man. Like, impossible. And then I went to San Francisco for my [01:05:00] elective. You know, where you can do, like, a six month period?

JW Oliver: Yeah. Abroad? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Six week period, [01:05:05] actually. And, um, the dean in San Francisco was a black gay man, and [01:05:10] and I remember he took me for sushi and we talked and all that, and he was [01:05:15] totally. He was totally out and open about it. Yeah. And this was, I don’t know, 193. [01:05:20] I just remember, like my jaw opening, thinking, there is no way that [01:05:25] someone in the in the in that role in the UK could be black and gay. Now things [01:05:30] have changed here with respect to that as well. Um, but [01:05:35] you know that that that question of, you know what what is. I [01:05:40] mean, legal and illegal immigration is you’re talking about is, [01:05:45] at the end of the day, the same person. It could be the same human coming in because [01:05:50] there is no legal route. Yeah. That’s right.

JW Oliver: And if there’s no [01:05:55] legal route, then there’s a problem. Yeah, yeah. No, you’re exactly right. Well, and and I think you’re right. And [01:06:00] I think when I look at what people in, in the US think as well, Americans, uh, always [01:06:05] like to see us as we think. Um, I think that’s what we’re asking [01:06:10] is if you’re going to come here, assimilate into [01:06:15] the culture and become a About USA. Usa. What I think people have a problem with [01:06:20] is you have people coming into the US or the UK and other countries [01:06:25] and they’re saying accept me as a citizen, but you need to respect my flag from wherever [01:06:30] and I and it’s like, well, wait a minute, I don’t know if you can have both. You can be a [01:06:35] you can have proud heritage of your country you came from. Like you can be a proud Iranian, [01:06:40] right? But the reality is you are in the UK and [01:06:45] I think people coming to the US should come to the US. They probably need to speak English [01:06:50] and they they probably need to assimilate. Right. And I think that’s where it’s those those lines have [01:06:55] gotten a little blurred. Um, and I and look, I don’t take a stance on either side, I. [01:07:00]

Payman Langroudi: I think, I think it’s important, it’s really important to understand the other side of it. Yeah. Because we [01:07:05] had.

JW Oliver: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: We had some riots here. Um, uh, three, three, [01:07:10] three children got stabbed by, by, uh, the African guy and, [01:07:15] uh, they, they there was some sort of idea that had been covered up by the [01:07:20] press. They weren’t making enough of a sound about this guy being an illegal immigrant. It turned out he was he [01:07:25] was actually born here. But then there were riots, the riots in the streets. And then, you know, they were they were [01:07:30] going and trying to burn down hotels where immigrants were staying and all this. It was a [01:07:35] terrible thing. But I thought actually, at the time to understand why it [01:07:40] spilled over into a riot, you know, why is it that someone, um, feels [01:07:45] like they’re not getting from their own country the benefits [01:07:50] that that some immigrants are getting, for instance. And what’s actually going through? What [01:07:55] is correct, what’s actually going through their minds to understand the other side of the debate? I mean, even [01:08:00] in a war situation, Russia, Ukraine, whatever, you pick one of those sides. Super important to understand [01:08:05] the other side’s.

JW Oliver: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Point of view, you know.

JW Oliver: Yeah. [01:08:10] I think you got to be careful in today’s world with just make an assumption. [01:08:15] Like like if you just said, oh yeah, all immigration is bad. Well, wait a minute. There’s there’s all kinds [01:08:20] of sides and pieces and there’s, there’s nuances as well. And uh, but [01:08:25] yet the UK and the US, either one can’t be the saviour to the world, right? I mean, we can’t [01:08:30] accept everybody that wasn’t that wouldn’t work either. Uh, we would we would have a broken system. So. Yeah, [01:08:35] that’s it’s a tough issue. I mean, it’s I think it’s one of the toughest ones we face today [01:08:40] is, is the, the whole immigration policy, right. It seems to be changing [01:08:45] on a weekly basis.

Payman Langroudi: I didn’t think our conversation would get to this point, but but [01:08:50] it’s been super, super fun talking to you. Um, we usually [01:08:55] end this on the same question, and it’s a fantasy [01:09:00] dinner party. Three guests, dead or alive. Who are [01:09:05] you having?

JW Oliver: Oh.

JW Oliver: Dead or alive? Uh. [01:09:10] Well, I would [01:09:15] say the first one would be Ronald Reagan. I was a big Ronald Reagan fan. I think he was [01:09:20] one of the great unifiers of the entire world. So I would say Ronald Reagan. Mhm. [01:09:25] Someone who’s become one of my favourites is Winston Churchill. So I would say [01:09:30] I would, I would love to have, um, a Winston Churchill [01:09:35] in the room with Ronald Reagan. And then um, [01:09:40] I would have to say and again, don’t please don’t read political views into [01:09:45] it. I’d like to have Donald Trump there as well.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting guy.

JW Oliver: Yeah. [01:09:50] I thought you were going to say I thought.

Payman Langroudi: You were going to say Margaret Thatcher. That she would have fitted very [01:09:55] well into that group.

JW Oliver: Well, I was going to actually I was, I was.

JW Oliver: Going to say Queen Elizabeth. I thought, well, [01:10:00] Queen Elizabeth, that was my last one. I was debating that, but I thought I kind of kind of leaders of the free world, [01:10:05] you know, as, as we kind of, uh, kind of by the way, I went to the, the I’ve [01:10:10] been to London dozens of times, but I just recently went to the, uh, the war room and, [01:10:15] uh, was was able to see that. And the funny thing, as I was, as I was, my [01:10:20] wife and I were standing there, we were at the front. There was not not it was a low time of day. Gentleman comes [01:10:25] walking out and I told the security guy, I said, hey, there’s a Winston Churchill. And he goes, oh, [01:10:30] uh, that’s one of his grandkids. And I went, oh, really? [01:10:35] He’s like, yeah. And he was kind of he looked just like him. You know, I thought I should have got a picture.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:10:40] that’s his grandkid was actually an MP. Maybe it was him. I forget [01:10:45] his, his name.

JW Oliver: Um, um, probably would have. Yeah, he was probably. He looked like he might have been in his 70s [01:10:50] now, you know, a little, little older guy. But yeah, he goes, yeah, he comes here. He comes here fairly [01:10:55] often. So yeah, it was kind of fun.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind when I ask what was the darkest day in this [01:11:00] journey for you?

JW Oliver: The darkest [01:11:05] day. Oh, that’s a good question.

JW Oliver: Um, [01:11:10] I don’t know what it [01:11:15] is. In the summer of 2000. [01:11:20] I remember I had [01:11:25] to, and I keep in mind I’ve only been married at that time, six [01:11:30] years, and my kids were [01:11:35] about four and two. We [01:11:40] were in a hotel room in Orlando. We were. We were on Disney. I literally had to I literally [01:11:45] had one of those big five gallon water jugs. Uh, we I used to put my change in [01:11:50] it. I remember I had to I had to take that change to the bank because [01:11:55] I promised we were going to take our kids to Disney, and I had to cash in that change. And there was about $1,400 [01:12:00] in there or something, and I was able to use that to go. But I remember that was [01:12:05] the moment I had to. I had to tell my wife that we were officially bankrupt [01:12:10] and and and I was I was [01:12:15] expecting this mad reply like, [01:12:20] you’re an idiot. You know, I’m done with you. I can’t believe you’ve done this to our family. [01:12:25] And I’ll just remember, she just. We were laying in bed. I remember she she reached over, [01:12:30] gave me a hug, I was crying and she says, don’t worry about it, [01:12:35] I trust you. We’ll get through this just fine.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

JW Oliver: And you [01:12:40] know, I remember the agony of trying to tell her that, and I thought, she [01:12:45] is going to leave me. I really thought she’s just going to leave me. And, uh, and that [01:12:50] that I remember that that was probably one of the darkest moments I ever had.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I, I give advice [01:12:55] to people. People are thinking about getting married or whatever. And I always advice I [01:13:00] give is marry the person you want to push your wheelchair because it doesn’t. It’s [01:13:05] not your actual wheelchair life is full of wheelchairs. Um, and we can all have [01:13:10] fun on Ferraris and private jets. And everyone’s a lovely person in those situations. But [01:13:15] it’s the person who, in that moment does that that’s the right person to marry. So [01:13:20] you chose well.

JW Oliver: Well thank you, I did. I got, uh, that’s the Lord blessed me with that [01:13:25] for sure. And it’s made, uh, it’s made going through those difficult times real easy. She’s [01:13:30] always been my greatest cheerleader, too. So that that’s that’s been helpful.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing, man. It’s [01:13:35] been a massive pleasure to talk to you. And and and, you know, before I met you, [01:13:40] I had you built up this, like, super executive guy. And actually, you’re just a just [01:13:45] a normal guy. Just a normal person. You mean?

JW Oliver: Man, I did wear my fancy t shirt today. [01:13:50]

Payman Langroudi: I’m sorry. Exactly.

JW Oliver: And my and my, I did put on a clean hat for you, so. Yeah. No, [01:13:55] you know what I want. I’ll leave you with this. One of the things [01:14:00] that I, that I take a lot of pride in is, is I treat the people. [01:14:05]

JW Oliver: We we.

JW Oliver: Uh, we call them our excellence team. The team that that, uh, you know, [01:14:10] sweeps the floor and cleans the bathrooms and all of our facilities. I [01:14:15] want to treat that person the exact same way as I treat [01:14:20] our C-suite. They’re all just part of our journey. We just [01:14:25] have different roles and functions. Uh, and so I think it’s important to to do that. And [01:14:30] to me, that’s a real that’s a real key, is just making sure that I don’t see myself [01:14:35] as I don’t let anybody call me mister. Uh, like, I’m not Mr. [01:14:40] Oliver. That was my father. I’m just J.W.. And so I think helps, hopefully keep me a little more humble and [01:14:45] grounded as we move forward as well.

Payman Langroudi: It’s like that famous thing in the Apollo program, isn’t it, that the janitor [01:14:50] who’s like, I’m helping put someone on the moon, but but I think even even beyond your [01:14:55] people, right? You show it with your philanthropy. The next human needs [01:15:00] to be treated with respect. Just the next human, whoever that is. It’s been a wonderful [01:15:05] conversation. Thank you so much for doing this.

JW Oliver: Hey, thanks for having me. It’s been a joy. [01:15:10] You’re easy to talk to you. You’re super fun. So, uh, thanks for having me on to [01:15:15] Payman appreciate it.

Payman Langroudi: Appreciate it. Man. Thank you.

[VOICE]: This [01:15:20] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one [01:15:25] on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:15:30] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:15:35] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [01:15:40] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve [01:15:45] had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. [01:15:50]

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [01:15:55] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so so much for listening. [01:16:00] Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get to go [00:00:10] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:15] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:00:20]

Payman Langroudi: This podcast comes to you from Enlighten Enlightens, an advanced [00:00:25] teeth whitening system that guarantees results on every single patient. We’ve treated hundreds [00:00:30] of thousands of patients now and have a really clear understanding of what it takes to get every [00:00:35] patient to that delighted state that we want to get to. If you want to understand teeth whitening [00:00:40] in much further detail, join us for online training only takes an hour completely free. [00:00:45] Even if you never use enlighten as a whitening system, you’ll learn loads and loads about whitening, [00:00:50] how to talk about it, how to involve your teams. Join us enlighten online training comm. [00:00:55] It gives me great pleasure to welcome Mike Hesketh onto the podcast. Mike is [00:01:00] a serial practice owner with a history in the military. Um, [00:01:05] a brilliant story. And the reason why I ask you, Mike, [00:01:10] is because some of my favourite interviews have been with people who are your [00:01:15] clients, and, um, clearly there’s something, something you figured out. [00:01:20] Um, I’ve listened to your other podcasts, and I actually [00:01:25] recommend that, um, my favourite one was when you did with Amon. Um.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. [00:01:30] Amon up in Leeds.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was lovely. And I don’t think he’s doing that [00:01:35] podcast anymore, but it’s still it’s still there. It’s called Dentistry Unmasked.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah it is. There is another one from [00:01:40] America called Dentistry Unmasked. So I don’t know if it was something to do with that.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really?

Mike Hesketh: We haven’t really talked about it since, but there [00:01:45] was a bit of a clash of, uh.

Payman Langroudi: A brilliant episode. A brilliant, brilliant episode. Listen [00:01:50] to that last. I really enjoyed that very much. Um, I don’t mind repeating some of the ground, but [00:01:55] at the same time, um, just for my own curiosity. I go go to other places too. Please [00:02:00] do, please do. You were born and brought up. Where?

Mike Hesketh: In North [00:02:05] Wales. So. Yeah. So until I was 18, I didn’t know which way England was. I [00:02:10] was so, like, entrenched in North Wales.

Payman Langroudi: A tiny place.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. A little seaside town about [00:02:15] half an hour from Liverpool. So I’m a Liverpool football fan. Um, grew up in a large state [00:02:20] school playing football, um, and enjoying that very much. And then at 16, [00:02:25] I won a scholarship for a really fancy private school down the road, which was all about rugby, [00:02:30] Welsh rugby. And so for my A-levels, I went to a private school on a scholarship for sciences [00:02:35] and sport and um, yeah, really enjoyed it. Opened my eyes to sort of [00:02:40] what the rest of the world was like, but I was actually arrested three times when I was 16.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. [00:02:45] It was. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Nice.

Mike Hesketh: Well, 14, 15, 16. I don’t I don’t think [00:02:50] my parents thought it was very nice, but, um. Yeah. So, uh, yeah, just for three sort [00:02:55] of minor incidents. Um, it was it was, I think is the biggest state school in Wales that was [00:03:00] in and I was the captain of the football team. And I could have gone both ways, really, um, as [00:03:05] a sporty lad. And a few of my mates have gone the wrong way as they do, and one of them played for Liverpool. Um, [00:03:10] actually scored in the cup and, and has just got out of prison. Um, so yeah [00:03:15] there’s, there’s interesting stories but you know like everyone um, normal state school um, I [00:03:20] was good at sciences and I managed to get quite a few A’s, which is interesting because [00:03:25] my 13 year old daughter is asking me about that now, and I don’t know how it equates to nine sevens [00:03:30] and eights. I don’t know how. How old are your children?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, 18 and 15.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, yeah. So [00:03:35] in the new language it’s nine seven and eights and sixes. And I said, well, I don’t know what I got darling, but it was six [00:03:40] A’s and I don’t know how I did it, to be honest. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And unfortunately, your father passed [00:03:45] away in a car crash when you were eight.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. He did, he did? Yeah. So my brother was ten [00:03:50] and I was eight, and my mum, um, got a knock on the door in the middle of the night [00:03:55] from a policeman. I was in the middle of night. It was a couple of hours later. He used to do the three ring [00:04:00] thing, and he was working up in Broughton, where the aerospace makes wings for planes, [00:04:05] and he was a local manager, and he was driving along the coast road of North Wales, back to where [00:04:10] we lived. And unfortunately, someone pulled out on him out of a pub, um, and luckily [00:04:15] there was a taxi driver behind who who witnessed it all. And, uh, it [00:04:20] took 2 or 3 years, but I remember feeling very vulnerable at the time. Um, [00:04:25] I don’t think I was, you know, my grandparents were in the same town and both sets, and [00:04:30] my mum was very strong. She immediately became a father and a mother at the same time. So she became a ninja [00:04:35] mum. Two boys, both sporty. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But when your own [00:04:40] kids got to eight, you must have reflected on that.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. Horrendous, really. [00:04:45] And I think there was a moment where all the businesses were quite hard a couple of years ago, and [00:04:50] it was full on. And, you know, as an entrepreneur yourself, how hard and all encompassing the 360 [00:04:55] degree pressure you can have from business. And I looked at my boy in a little Welsh shirt and he was eight, [00:05:00] and I thought, oh, Jesus, you know, reminded me of me, um, back in the day. Um, [00:05:05] and so, yeah, it does, it does. It becomes much more real. You don’t realise [00:05:10] what you missed out. I felt like I had a pretty happy childhood, really. And other than this big sort of. [00:05:15]

Payman Langroudi: Event.

Mike Hesketh: Event in the middle of it. But everyone rallied round. He was a rugby player, um, [00:05:20] the local rugby club. So all his friends got around us and, um, [00:05:25] you know, my mum, um, eventually 4 or 5 years later, married his old best friend. So [00:05:30] that was quite nice. It was a continuity of stories and, um, you know, [00:05:35] um, sort of history. Um, but it’s only now when I get to sort of mid 40s [00:05:40] that I think, oh, that was probably more traumatic than I thought it was. [00:05:45]

Payman Langroudi: Do you think that was formative in terms of, I mean, positives and negatives? Did you [00:05:50] find out? Did you find that now, when you reflect back on it, that you have a sort of a level of [00:05:55] self-reliance or something that.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, I remember playing football a lot in sports. [00:06:00] Bricks in my shoes falling apart. And I went home and my mom was like, well, [00:06:05] we can’t buy any more shoes now. I don’t know whether that was just me being a plonker or whether [00:06:10] we could actually not afford any shoes. I remember the insurance didn’t pay out for 2 or 3 years, so [00:06:15] I don’t want to, you know, you made from your history, everyone on [00:06:20] the podcast and everyone you see, you know, is formed from a certain way. Um, it’s [00:06:25] there is a self-reliance. I remember thinking, I don’t want to be poor. I remember thinking, I’m [00:06:30] getting out of here, I’m getting out. And and maybe that was it. At 15, 16, [00:06:35] I was playing county level football, having a few trials, um, [00:06:40] starting to get good at things for the first time, get good at sciences at [00:06:45] school, enjoying it, um, wanting to do well, So I suspect probably it did [00:06:50] drive me on to actually. Think I don’t want to be vulnerable.

Payman Langroudi: Because in retrospect, you think someone [00:06:55] who went through that whole military experience and the leadership training and all that, [00:07:00] it makes a lot of sense for that person to go out into the commercial world and sort of transferable [00:07:05] skills. But not every soldier does that, right? No. And so, [00:07:10] you know, that question of, you know, wanting to be comfortable kind of what you’re alluding to right now. Yeah, [00:07:15] maybe maybe that I mean, what is the difference between a soldier that comes out of a [00:07:20] sort of a difficult, engaged war situation [00:07:25] and we hear stories of soldiers who are homeless and and PTSD [00:07:30] and all that. Yeah. And then you get other soldiers who, you know, use that and propel themselves [00:07:35] through the business world. Oh.

Mike Hesketh: That’s a it’s a sort of a deep question [00:07:40] that in a way, um, I didn’t feel any trauma from Afghanistan. [00:07:45]

Payman Langroudi: Did you know.

Mike Hesketh: At the time. And I think that’s again mid 40s. You start to think [00:07:50] back and go, geez, I dream about it now. I dream about the explosions, the gunshots more than I ever [00:07:55] did 15 years ago.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. I think about it, compartmentalised it a little bit. And [00:08:00] I when I finished my tour, sort of 6 or 7 month tour of Afghanistan, [00:08:05] I was in Helmand and it was the most dangerous place on the planet at the time around Sangin [00:08:10] and Helmand Valley, and I was embedded as a dentist with 40 Commando, Royal [00:08:15] Marines. And so I’ve got lots of war stories. Basically, the first [00:08:20] three months was the worst three months of my life, but I was in the hospital. I was in the main hospital [00:08:25] as a dentist during the day, and as people were blown up and injured, they’d come back on the helicopter to [00:08:30] this hospital and they’d stand at the bottom of the beds because all the doctors, the [00:08:35] padre, the medics were all further forward, keeping the lads alive to get them on the helicopter. [00:08:40] And then, because I’d been embedded with the Royal Marine unit for 3 or 4 years prior to deploying, [00:08:45] I knew everyone, so my patient base was 7800 Royal Marine commandos, Mega [00:08:50] fit individuals, alpha males all the way. Mission is to close with and to kill the [00:08:55] enemy. That’s it. As brutal as it sounds, that’s exactly what the mission is. To close [00:09:00] within. To kill the enemy. The chosen enemy at the time. And so [00:09:05] my job was to be a dentist within that. But I’d done the commando course so I could keep up with them. [00:09:10] And I’d also done a medics course, and we could talk about that more later. But [00:09:15] to answer your question about the trauma of it, I’d gone through three months of standing at the end of the beds of my friends [00:09:20] with lost limbs, horrific injuries, my friend like literally [00:09:25] my mates.

Mike Hesketh: Um, and then I’d go. I’d walk along to the, uh, joint [00:09:30] operations cell, and at 8:00 at night, every night there’d be a brief. There’d be 50 men, [00:09:35] hard men in the room making decisions about the thousand men further [00:09:40] forward. And I’d do a brief every night and I’d talk. I’d say, right, marine [00:09:45] X is going to end up in hospital within two hours. He’s lost one [00:09:50] limb and another limb. Um, the questions would always be from the lads at the [00:09:55] front. Has he still got his tackle as he’s still got his private parts? That’s all the lads asked about. [00:10:00] Um. And then I’d do, I’d keep the spreadsheet and then that [00:10:05] was my data. And I did that for three months. And then it was almost a relief when the commanding [00:10:10] officer said, look, we’ve hit Christmas time halfway through the tour. We need to do some hearts and minds. [00:10:15] And because you’ve done the medic training and because we trust you, your [00:10:20] lead a team on the ground and you’ll go to the forward operating bases where all these soldiers [00:10:25] have been injured, and you’ll take a team forward and you’ll try and do hearts and minds from a medical [00:10:30] shuras meet the local chiefs, um, take female medics, [00:10:35] Gurkha engineers, and they’ll be your team, and you’ll be officer in command of outreach. And [00:10:40] then, in a weird way, those three months felt better. It felt better to be in [00:10:45] the fight because unfortunately, every time we went out the gate, we got [00:10:50] shot at or blown up. For every patrol, every every patrol was ambushed. [00:10:55] I don’t remember a patrol that wasn’t. And that went on for three months.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. [00:11:00] And so I was a medic. So the dentist kit, I took an American piece of kit the [00:11:05] size of a suitcase, and I became a dentist for the lads because they were living out in these austere [00:11:10] environments. They had dental injuries, and the aim was to keep the force forward. So they. I’d be a dentist, [00:11:15] outreach and a medic. So three different jobs. And it’s varied. And [00:11:20] I did this three months. Ended up um, putting a lot of guys on [00:11:25] the helicopter as opposed to meeting them off the helicopter and, um, put in intraosseous, [00:11:30] um, fluids into them, um, eyes, abdomen wounds, limbs [00:11:35] lost, stretcher bearing, um, getting the rounds down, [00:11:40] firing at the enemy, and, um. Yeah. So the last [00:11:45] three months were sort of full on, but I remember flying back to the UK and, [00:11:50] uh, within a week after coming off the battlefield, I [00:11:55] was stood in a hospital in Portsmouth as a maxfax sho doing head and neck cancer. [00:12:00] And so, to answer your question about business, from that experience, I [00:12:05] think there was a little bit about me where I’d just gone straight from the military, uh, war zone, [00:12:10] a year of Maxfax I knew I was leaving, Laura was pregnant with Poppy, [00:12:15] our daughter, and I just wanted to get on and control the money. And [00:12:20] we got ripped off in north London, uh, by a Dental corporate owner, a small independent, [00:12:25] and, uh, didn’t pay us at all. I did two, three months worth of work, and he said, oh, that’s all retainer. [00:12:30]

Payman Langroudi: Was that your first time?

Mike Hesketh: My first experience. Yeah. Yeah. And I was 30, so I never [00:12:35] did NHS.

Payman Langroudi: So you were kind of Institutionalised up to that point.

Mike Hesketh: Exactly. Yeah. And I [00:12:40] said to my wife, I came home and I said, we just need to control the money. This civilian world is brutal.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:12:45] is. Right.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It’s it’s. And when I say 360 degree pressure, I [00:12:50] mean, when you wear a uniform in a war zone, you had a 360 degree battle space. But [00:12:55] your job is very defined. Defined job. Whereas as you know, as an entrepreneur, your [00:13:00] jobs change all the time, really rapidly. And in a way, it’s a completely different set of pressure. But [00:13:05] I almost didn’t care. I had a bit of a devil may care attitude. We had £20,000 [00:13:10] saving age 30, didn’t have any equity in the house because it was after the financial crash. The house price [00:13:15] that we’d bought in the military had plummeted. So I had no money. And I said to my wife, look, what [00:13:20] can they do? They can take a house with no equity offers. We’ve only got 20 grand. Let’s have a crack at it. Let’s just [00:13:25] buy something. And I we this house was down in South West, [00:13:30] so we just bought it near Exeter before.

Payman Langroudi: Before you go any further, just. I know as [00:13:35] a soldier, as a as a sort of someone in the middle of a war zone. You [00:13:40] wouldn’t be a very good soldier if you questioned it. That’s that’s not that’s not what you [00:13:45] want from your soldiers. Right. But now 40, 40 years old, when you question [00:13:50] it, when you think about it.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Two questions. Really. Was there [00:13:55] some times where you thought you were being asked to do things that that, you know, [00:14:00] it wasn’t correct. It wasn’t. I’m not I’m not saying from the from the geopolitical perspective, [00:14:05] I’m saying there’s a mission. And you didn’t have the resources for that mission. I’m under-resourced, [00:14:10] that sort of thing.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my honest opinion, I think that [00:14:15] they they took they threw about a fifth of the resources needed at Afghanistan, the Helmand [00:14:20] Valley itself. If you look at what the US Marines took to their areas and [00:14:25] to dominate the ground, it’s called against the Taliban. Okay. And we weren’t fighting Afghans. We’re fighting Taliban. [00:14:30] Okay. And there was a lot of civilian Afghans not interested in fighting whatsoever. [00:14:35] They were the ones who have insurance with and trying to bring some order. Educated. Really well educated. [00:14:40] Um, there was a lot of moments where both locally, on a tactical [00:14:45] level and on a strategic level where you question it and you think, right, okay. [00:14:50] I mean, I could tell you so many horrific stories about, uh, people [00:14:55] under pressure in a, in a war zone and fighting, um, that [00:15:00] men it’s very easy to see with hindsight and from a distance in the newspapers. [00:15:05] Well, why did they do that? Yeah. Well, if every two days you’re [00:15:10] 18, 19, 20 years old, you’re going to get shot at and bombed, and then your best friend gets hurt [00:15:15] or killed. There there were men in front of me in lines [00:15:20] that started to lose it because of the constant gun fighting. [00:15:25] And we’d cover ground, drive the enemy away, find a bomb maker, [00:15:30] come back to the base, and then they’d re-infiltrate that ground and drop and put mines in the place [00:15:35] where we’d walked the day before. Well, yeah. And so there wasn’t.

Payman Langroudi: You were under-resourced [00:15:40] to that extent. Right.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. So my feeling is it became a training exercise in a tick [00:15:45] box for the British government. My feeling strategically. And I’m happy to talk about that. It doesn’t [00:15:50] I mean, I was a dentist in the commando unit. I’m not the most you know, I wasn’t the guy driving policy. But [00:15:55] if they wanted to achieve what they wanted to achieve, they needed to put five times as much resources into it. But it became [00:16:00] the losses were too big. Um, you know, and two [00:16:05] high profile that they almost by not risking any more, [00:16:10] they put us all at risk by under-resourcing us. And if you’d lost someone from the [00:16:15] front line with a dental injury. Now the men move in groups of four. So for [00:16:20] eight, if you lost one of those four, you’d lose. You [00:16:25] know, a quarter of your your gunfire, your firepower. And so that’s why the armed Forces [00:16:30] Dental service exists because in the First World War they lost 15 to 20% of [00:16:35] their of their firepower due to dental injuries in trenches.

Payman Langroudi: So isn’t [00:16:40] caries like.

Mike Hesketh: The decay and.

Payman Langroudi: Disease injuries? Gunshots to the mouth?

Mike Hesketh: I mean, if [00:16:45] you think about it, they were they were living there for two years. We were living there for seven months.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, yeah. Um, and [00:16:50] these forward operating bases, if you think about them as satellites around the [00:16:55] sun, the sun was sank in, and then we were protecting this residential area. And [00:17:00] these satellites. Now, to get in and out of those satellites was a helicopter, hopefully [00:17:05] because you wanted to avoid road moves all the time because you’d either run over a legacy Russian mine from the mujahideen [00:17:10] time or you’d have to, um, you know, hit an [00:17:15] ambush with the Taliban. They’d know we’d come in. We were coming. And so these [00:17:20] satellite units were super dangerous. And all my job was for three months was to pop between [00:17:25] each of them, a couple of weeks in, each, trying to bring hearts and minds. But it’s so dangerous that [00:17:30] you didn’t want to, uh, you know, go on the ground as much, as much as possible, [00:17:35] basically.

Payman Langroudi: And I know you said they’re the enemy, right? But did you ever look at it from their perspective? Like, do you ever [00:17:40] think about what if a bunch of Russian soldiers landed in Cornwall? And would you be [00:17:45] the one to resist that?

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. You do. Yeah. Yeah you do. And every time. But [00:17:50] you come back to your original question, you don’t. Um, it’s a funny thing, you know, [00:17:55] you have to have some faith in your government.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Hesketh: To make a decision about where you’re [00:18:00] going to go. And at any one time, the the UK Armed forces is deployed around the [00:18:05] world doing all sorts of things that no one. That just doesn’t make the news. Some of it good, some of it bad. [00:18:10] And you can. It’s easy to be sceptical and cynical about [00:18:15] the efforts. It’s, uh, at the time you’re you’re [00:18:20] trying to survive with your mates. And I think as a marine or a soldier on the ground or a sailor, [00:18:25] you’re just trying to survive with your mates and you sign up to something. I [00:18:30] did see moments where there was a lot of, uh, [00:18:35] British, um, restraint trying [00:18:40] to stop other countries from being too aggressive.

Payman Langroudi: Americans? [00:18:45] Yeah, I said that to you.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, but, I mean, [00:18:50] um, modus operandi is, you know, the Americans is very aggressive, very aggressive, whereas [00:18:55] we wear a lot of berets, we are much calmer. You don’t hear any shouting [00:19:00] at all from UK armed forces in a, in a in a war zone. It’s, uh, [00:19:05] it’s calm.

Payman Langroudi: And then the training to become this sort of elite [00:19:10] soldier.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I suspect right. There’s loads of physical training. [00:19:15] Right.

Mike Hesketh: It’s mental.

Payman Langroudi: But mental. Yeah. That’s where I was going to go.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, yeah. You’re right. [00:19:20] I mean, it’s, uh, it’s mental. All shapes and sizes. It’s whether you can keep going. So, they [00:19:25] have this line. It’s called Strength of Mind. And they had an awful marketing campaign [00:19:30] which was 99.99%. Need not apply.

Payman Langroudi: Well. Jesus. [00:19:35]

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, yeah. So my brother and his best friend were in, [00:19:40] um. My brother was with Royal Marine Reserves, Merseyside, and his best friend was SBS. And [00:19:45] they used to, you know, come back home and talk about it. And I think this SBS [00:19:50] chap said.

Payman Langroudi: What’s a special boat.

Mike Hesketh: Special boat service. Yeah. So the.

Payman Langroudi: Sas for the.

Mike Hesketh: Navy SBS.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Of [00:19:55] the Navy.

Mike Hesketh: Uh, yeah. Yeah. They’re combined.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah yeah. So based [00:20:00] out of Poole and so they go, UK Special Forces training is one year long and the first three [00:20:05] months is the Hills training, and the second three months is jungle training. And then you do the remaining [00:20:10] six months speciality training with the SAS or SBS. That’s how it used to be. I don’t know what [00:20:15] it is now. I haven’t read up on it, but yeah, they used to talk about it and they and this, this friend of [00:20:20] ours said I think one of each of the three Commando units based in [00:20:25] Somerset, Plymouth and Arbroath in Scotland. I think they’ve all got their own dentist. Um, [00:20:30] and I was 21 years old at Leeds Uni and I said, [00:20:35] okay, what’s that about? And he said, well, I think they get to do the commando course. And [00:20:40] about um, about a month later a recruiter came to [00:20:45] Leeds Uni and I met him and I said, how do I join? And you do an Admiralty [00:20:50] interview board down in Portsmouth, and you learn and you pass as an officer, as a general [00:20:55] officer, and medics and dentists do quite well in that because we’re quite logical, [00:21:00] we’re scientific and we’ve often done sports captains of sports teams.

Mike Hesketh: And [00:21:05] so they give you a point score out of 900. And the medics and dentists do quite well against normal, [00:21:10] uh, Royal Navy officers. But I was always earmarked and pinged to [00:21:15] be a commando dentist even from that point. And you get [00:21:20] put in a commando unit for 3 to 4 years as a dentist, which is a long time for [00:21:25] a normal military posting. And so they pinged me for that as I passed the Admiralty Interview [00:21:30] Board. And then as soon as I’d done my vocational training year in, in Gibraltar [00:21:35] and down in Portsmouth, they said, right, you’re off to 40 Commando. And then [00:21:40] when you’re there, you get loaded on a course called the All Arms Commando Course. And that All Arms Commando [00:21:45] course is where you physically get thrashed and you’re and it’s designed [00:21:50] to break you essentially. A lot of soldiers, sailors, airmen will [00:21:55] do that course before they go and try the year long special forces training. So I was in there [00:22:00] on my course. Do you ever watch 14 Peaks on Netflix?

Payman Langroudi: I heard it’s a mountain [00:22:05] climbing thing. Yeah, I’ve seen it. Yeah.

Mike Hesketh: Did that. He was a Gurkha. Um, Ant [00:22:10] Middleton from SAS Who Dares Wins? Um, he taught me to soldier [00:22:15] in the Congo, in Sierra Leone. Um, sorry. In Sierra Leone, not in the Congo. We hid off the coast [00:22:20] of the Congo for three months. Once. That’s another story.

Payman Langroudi: So being a Royal Marines dentist [00:22:25] basically means you get involved in stuff that they’re doing, which by its very nature is more dangerous, [00:22:30] more exciting, whatever. Yeah.

Mike Hesketh: And I think that’s what I wanted. I qualified it and [00:22:35] I was 18 when I went to Leeds, and I just turned 18 in the summer. So I qualified at 22. [00:22:40] But at 22 and one month I was in, I was down in Portsmouth because they were [00:22:45] paying me. They paid me for the last two years of uni and then they put me straight through all of the courses. [00:22:50] Royal College in Edinburgh, Royal College in London, Maxfax so it’s a great [00:22:55] employer as a dentist, but your patient base is very limited. You spend about half your time being a dentist [00:23:00] on very easy patients, um, who are compliant and [00:23:05] fit and well, and then you spend half your time doing officer things or [00:23:10] atls advanced trauma life support courses, but you do battlefield versions [00:23:15] where the mechanism of injury is blast injury or gunshot wounds as opposed to road traffic. Yeah [00:23:20] yeah yeah yeah. So you you do those courses to, um, get better at medicine, [00:23:25] but it’s the only course we’ve ever come to us because I was against Marines.

Payman Langroudi: So. [00:23:30] Yeah. You had a better.

Mike Hesketh: Medical course I ever came.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So [00:23:35] then, okay, you come out, you decide. How many years would you. Were you contracted to stay?

Mike Hesketh: Seven [00:23:40] years. But I did eight. So age 22 to 30. And then I left in 2012.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:23:45] you literally couldn’t leave before that, right. Is that the.

Mike Hesketh: Way it works? Well, I think you paid back some of the money you paid at uni. [00:23:50] Okay. I mean, there were people that sort of got around that I think, who didn’t want to be. But, um, [00:23:55] you asked before about the All Arms Commando course. Yeah. Half will [00:24:00] pass, half will fail, and it’s an eight week course as opposed to 30 weeks to get [00:24:05] your Green Beret if you come off the street because we were trained officers, you do eight weeks and you do each [00:24:10] of the criteria tests each week. And I used to tell myself stories, books in [00:24:15] my head on the marches, because the marches can get bleak. Yeah, it can be horizontal [00:24:20] snow, rain, wind, um, on Sennybridge or Dartmoor. And [00:24:25] you sleep outside for two weeks, essentially. And you soldier and you. And then you have to do all [00:24:30] the sentry duty. It’s wet, wet, dry routine where you put wet clothes on at night, um, and [00:24:35] get into your. And then you get into your dry clothes. It’s all about discipline and it breaks and [00:24:40] it’s all men, really. There’s there has been 2 or 3 women that have got through it, [00:24:45] um, over the recent history, um, which is amazing. Um, because it’s just [00:24:50] so physically and debilitating. Um, but yeah, [00:24:55] so but the mental thing is keeping going and telling yourself stories and being able to switch off to the pain. [00:25:00] Um, and then at the end of the 30 miler, which is a race across Dartmoor, essentially [00:25:05] carrying loads of weight, you, um, all of the recruiters come along. So [00:25:10] all of the Special forces come along, recruiters, and they start talking to you as you’re come in off the 30 mile, [00:25:15] and they want to know whether you’re a diver, whether you’re an airman, what’s your background? I had a chat with [00:25:20] one chap and he said, well, I was a dentist. I don’t think you need to be joining the Special Forces. [00:25:25] He’s like, what are you doing here? I was.

Payman Langroudi: Like. [00:25:30]

Mike Hesketh: I don’t know, I’m on. I was on a six figure salary line in the stream. I have no idea. But, [00:25:35] you know, when you’re just like, well, I’m going to I’m going to get the coveted Green Beret. So it was I mean, there was. [00:25:40]

Payman Langroudi: A degree of obsession, right? To succeed at that.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. I mean, it’s [00:25:45] trying to keep up with your peers. You know, you’re in the unit and there’s 700 Green Berets, and there’s only four blue [00:25:50] ones. The padre, the doctor, the education officer and the dentist. I used to I used to say we used to double the IQ [00:25:55] of the unit. And then when the under-slung loads came in from the Chinook helicopter, [00:26:00] the food in the forward operating bases, they’d go, Dental, it’s your paycheque. They’d [00:26:05] be taking the mick out of me.

Payman Langroudi: So do you reckon you’ve got a sort of an obsessive [00:26:10] personality? I mean, did it carry through?

Mike Hesketh: I want [00:26:15] to complete things that I start. Yeah. And I want to, um. There’s a saying in the Marines, it [00:26:20] pays to be a winner. And they’d see a tree on the hill and they’d say, run to that tree and back, [00:26:25] and all of you would run there, and the first two could stop and sit out the next bit. [00:26:30] Oh, yeah. And it pays to be a winner, gentlemen. You know, it is unashamedly [00:26:35] alpha, and it’s not in vogue with the modern world in any way whatsoever. But [00:26:40] there is a point where there will be forces needed to do things, and [00:26:45] you need to be able to rely on the person next to you that they’re not just going to quit halfway through [00:26:50] and advance to contact when the rounds are coming in, and they’re going to be disciplined to [00:26:55] follow orders and the fire. And it became apparent in Afghanistan that was [00:27:00] really important.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you must have seen Simon Sinek. He he draws quite a lot of inspiration from [00:27:05] Seal teams and all that. Yeah. He does for business. Yeah.

Mike Hesketh: Leaders eat last. Well, that’s [00:27:10] it’s quite funny, actually, listening to him talk about it, because it’s just normal. [00:27:15]

Payman Langroudi: It’s normal.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, yeah. You stand at the back of the food line. You just the lads you never take [00:27:20] from the lads, you know, you, um. And that’s the same if you equate it to Dental world hygienists. [00:27:25] So there’s a way that hygienists are on at the moment, which is incorrect, how [00:27:30] associates are paid for the use of of hygienists. People have this system where they where they [00:27:35] charge the associate for the use of the hygienist and their pay membership pay. It’s the wrong way round. They’re taking [00:27:40] from their team. So there’s all these little nuggets that I talk about that, um, destroy [00:27:45] the ethos of the leadership. So I was came out in the military at age 30. [00:27:50] I think I was a little bit, um, devil may care. I have a [00:27:55] very, very strong wife who gently, very clever wife who gently nursed [00:28:00] me through life. I didn’t even realise what I was getting, you know, pointed in the right direction [00:28:05] by her, very supportive, very loving. And that’s [00:28:10] where we took the risk to buy the first business because. But if you think about it as a blank [00:28:15] canvas, I didn’t know anything about the real world as much as it was an experience [00:28:20] in the military. I didn’t know anything about how to build business. I didn’t know what the word invoice meant. I [00:28:25] remember asking my accountant, I.

Payman Langroudi: Said, you forget. I didn’t know what a word invoice meant when we started enlightened. You forget [00:28:30] you did the things you didn’t know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mike Hesketh: And you do. And I said to my accountant, I was like, which way does the money [00:28:35] flow with that? Is that like, in or out? I was 30, you know, how cosseted [00:28:40] and how narrow minded and people go, Jesus, you’ve done a lot in the military. I was like, no, you just it’s very narrow. [00:28:45] And when you come out into the brave world and you’re dealing with money [00:28:50] and you’re dealing with sharp operators who have a different ethos, [00:28:55] yeah, to the one you’re used to, um, you can end up getting yourself in trouble, I [00:29:00] think. And maybe that’s where ex-military people suffer. Um, they can’t understand it.

Payman Langroudi: Especially [00:29:05] because they want defined rules. Yeah. And and it’s not like that [00:29:10] out there, right?

Mike Hesketh: No.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And maybe also though your biggest advantage. Right. [00:29:15] Because like that sort of clean slate that you’re talking about. You didn’t go into it with habits, [00:29:20] um, with, with, with the same sort of, you know, boundaries that we [00:29:25] all sort of take for granted. No. You know, sometimes you look at someone like Elon Musk or something, [00:29:30] and he questions the boundaries that we all take for granted. [00:29:35] And that’s his massive, you know, superpower. Yeah. So yeah. So you saw this practice. [00:29:40] Did you sort of strategically buy this practice as in.

Mike Hesketh: No, no, [00:29:45] no. I just, um, wanted to control the money. So we got ripped off and I said [00:29:50] to my wife, we need to control the money. We’ve got 20 grand to put down. And the broker was very good. [00:29:55] Um, David Brewer, Frank Taylor and Associates, very good broker.

Payman Langroudi: Raised the money.

Mike Hesketh: He raised them. Well, he was very [00:30:00] good in the fact that it was for sale through those guys. And, um, and I said to David, how [00:30:05] much can I raise? And he said, well, that’s a 10% deposit, 15% deposit. [00:30:10] Um, and so you need to look for practices around the 202 50 mark. I mean, it [00:30:15] was in 2012. Yeah. It was um, and it was turning over 500,000 at the time. [00:30:20] It was three gentlemen who wanted to retire, didn’t want to be tied in two brothers and their friend, and [00:30:25] they’d been trying to sell it for 3 or 4 years. A lot of people had looked at it in the city of Exeter. [00:30:30] Um, there was ten private practices within a mile of it, but it was basically all we could afford. [00:30:35] And I and I said to my wife, well, if we want to control our own destiny, let’s see what we can do. [00:30:40] This is my little secret weapon was that Lara was a talent manager in [00:30:45] central London, so had been in, um, competitive business. But being heavily pregnant [00:30:50] with Poppy didn’t want to carry on working in the city centre, obviously. So moved back down to the West [00:30:55] Country to have our daughter and is in charge of the creativity [00:31:00] and the branding and as a leader in herself, in her own right of the business. Um, [00:31:05] I’m the front man, and I have the awkward conversations with people, which is fine. Um, [00:31:10] but really, there was an assurance from her in business, so there was some business [00:31:15] knowledge. I it just wasn’t in me, you know? And I said, oh, let’s just fix teeth. Come on. Let’s [00:31:20] just fix some teeth and, you know, it’ll work. It’ll be fine. Um, you know, let’s see how [00:31:25] we go. And I had a coach in 2012, um, and [00:31:30] he was fantastic.

Payman Langroudi: And a business coach.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, yeah. So I’d gone to a, [00:31:35] um, like a Premier Inn or something off the coast, off, um, the M5. [00:31:40] Um, and it was hosted by Lloyds Bank who were lending us money. And they said, look, I think you should [00:31:45] come and listen to this, coach. And it was my first experience of business coaching. And I went [00:31:50] there and this coach was talking about growing dental practices, being [00:31:55] innovative, being creative. And I said, oh, Laura was at home. [00:32:00] I think she was like only a week or two from giving birth. So she was at home and I walked up to him at the end and [00:32:05] I said, um, okay, how do I get your help? Because I’ve just nearly [00:32:10] completed on a business and I need I need some support. He said, it’s £800. I was like, oh, oh, [00:32:15] brilliant for the year. And he went, no, a month. I was like, what? [00:32:20] You know, because you, you’re sort of reference points of money is [00:32:25] from where I grew up, you know, and the military was just.

Payman Langroudi: It was a bit shocking.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. [00:32:30]

Payman Langroudi: But you went ahead anyway.

Mike Hesketh: Well, I wasn’t going to. I told my [00:32:35] wife all of the good things about what he’d said about how he could. And I said, look, his bottom tier is a group thing, [00:32:40] and it’s £800, um, a month, so I don’t think. And she said, you should [00:32:45] do that. So you see how the influence of Lara, then I wouldn’t have done [00:32:50] it, because I would have thought it was too much money and I would have made so many mistakes. But when you said a blank canvas, [00:32:55] when the when you go through the commando course, they do something called a two [00:33:00] footed landing. When you jump into dark water and you do a two footed landing, [00:33:05] because if you do a one footed landing, you break your ankle. Okay. When you’re climbing the ropes, you lose [00:33:10] your you use your legs, not your arms, because your legs are four times stronger than your arms when [00:33:15] you’re going horizontally across the ropes. If you ever see Bear Grylls doing that, he uses his legs, not his arms, [00:33:20] because his arms, your arms blow out really quickly, especially when you’re carrying ammunition and [00:33:25] weapons. So I always just did what the [00:33:30] physical training instructor and the Royal Marine commander has told me to do how to clean a weapon, how to strip [00:33:35] down a weapon, um, how to, um, soldier in the jungle, everything. [00:33:40] And I just followed the rules. And so I [00:33:45] was paying this coach, and I said, right, I’ll.

Payman Langroudi: Do whatever he says.

Mike Hesketh: I’m going to do whatever you say.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:33:50] super interesting. I heard this in your previous pod, and and I reflected on it might have been [00:33:55] the most valuable thing that you said insomuch as I [00:34:00] go round practices and corporates and yeah, he [00:34:05] on here maybe talking about what should you do if you want to increase your whitening through the roof. Yeah. [00:34:10] And I can think of a couple. Yeah. Couple. Two literally two people [00:34:15] who did exactly what I told them to do. And they ended up being fantastically [00:34:20] successful in whitening. Now, I’m not saying I’m some sort of genius. I’m actually thinking of those guys. Yeah, [00:34:25] those guys had that sort of foresight to just follow the instruction. And the [00:34:30] crazy thing, one of those guys thinks I’m I’m the genius. I kept trying to tell him, I’ve [00:34:35] said that same thing to a hundred people. You’re the only one who just took it fully on.

Mike Hesketh: It’s bonkers, [00:34:40] isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: It’s bonkers that people don’t do that more. You know, I can’t.

Mike Hesketh: I couldn’t believe it.

Payman Langroudi: Because it was your military [00:34:45] training.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, but because I was in the group, I’d driven up to Bristol. Our group was meeting in the southwest, [00:34:50] so it was part of his group in the southwest, and we’d meet in the Marriott in Bristol and, um, [00:34:55] driving back after the first meeting, I wrote to him and I said, because, [00:35:00] you know, I was getting really stressed with the purchase of the practice in 2012. I was like, this [00:35:05] is really hard. I don’t know anything. And I said, look, I can’t be surrounded by [00:35:10] negativity in the room. I’ve put my house on the line, put my money on the line. I kind [00:35:15] of do want it to work. Um, I’m trying to box things off in my head, but that [00:35:20] was the most negative meeting I’ve ever been in.

Payman Langroudi: From the other delegates.

Mike Hesketh: From the other delegates, the other dentist [00:35:25] owners in the room that all had big practices. It was horrendous. And so [00:35:30] I said, I’m just going to do what you tell me to do. I’m going to send you stuff. And if you could just read it, I’ll [00:35:35] still pay you £800. But I’m not coming to the meetings. I don’t want to be surrounded by the negativity.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. [00:35:40]

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, it’s terrible, isn’t it? And so then, to be fair to him, he was a very good coach. It was Simon Hocking down in the [00:35:45] South West. Lovely man, lovely man. And so he, um, he then said, right, we’ll move [00:35:50] you to a more dynamic group. We were thinking about shaking the groups up. Anyway, we’ll put you in like the entrepreneurial sector. [00:35:55] But even in that entrepreneurial group, I just did what he told me to do, and I messaged [00:36:00] him and I said, we need to change the name of the practice and rebrand it, and we’re going to open seven days a week. [00:36:05] What do you think? He said, yeah, do that. I went, okay, is that easy? [00:36:10]

Payman Langroudi: This was early on. You decided to do that, right?

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. In, you know, in the city centre, because there was half a [00:36:15] million people walking 50 yards from the front of the practice. So I didn’t understand why no one was open seven days a week. [00:36:20] And the way to make seven days a week work is you work one weekend in five. Everyone. [00:36:25]

Payman Langroudi: Everyone does that.

Mike Hesketh: Everyone. One weekend in five, you give them the Friday and the Monday off of that [00:36:30] weekend, and you shorten the days on the Saturday and the Sunday. So the days get shorter, but you pay [00:36:35] them the full pay. Yeah. As they would do on a Friday and a Monday.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Hesketh: And then everyone, including [00:36:40] the owner leaders eat last. So it works the weekend.

Payman Langroudi: And was it [00:36:45] were you were you doing the 8 to 8.

Mike Hesketh: No no no you can’t do both.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t do both.

Mike Hesketh: No. Can’t do [00:36:50] both. Now I know that this practices there are and I know there’s a really big one in Birmingham that does 24 hours of dentistry [00:36:55] and stuff like that, and I get all that, and that’s their brand ethos. But if you want to make it sustainable and not run your practice [00:37:00] hot, you do one or the other. And to me, if you’re going to muck up someone’s weekend on [00:37:05] a Saturday and make them work a Saturday, muck it up properly.

Payman Langroudi: Take the whole thing.

Mike Hesketh: Take the whole thing, give [00:37:10] them the Friday and Monday off. And then a lot of the time these are busy mums in the business. They [00:37:15] get a Friday and a Monday to themselves and then on the weekend they’re [00:37:20] cool, calm, collected in a nice practice. When it’s really quiet. It’s seven shares [00:37:25] in the practice, so one was being operated and they’re doing a root canal at 2:00 on a Sunday [00:37:30] and it’s cool and it’s calm and they’re having a really peaceful weekend. And [00:37:35] so people think seven days a week is is noise. It’s not. But [00:37:40] if I was to open one in London, Birmingham, any of the cities, I would be opening seven days a week [00:37:45] and I’d just do one weekend of five and I would work one weekend of five. And you can’t really swap that weekend because it becomes [00:37:50] a rota nightmare for everybody. But you pay them the full whack. You don’t do time and a half, you just pay them the [00:37:55] full hours. Then the hours are eight till half, eight till six or something, or half eight till half, five [00:38:00] and a normal working day. So you pay them up, but you only ask them to come in ten till four on a Sunday. But you pay in full [00:38:05] hours.

Payman Langroudi: So from the management perspective, if a member of staff says I’m not willing to do that, or [00:38:10] is it that that doesn’t happen because you get the buy in from the [00:38:15] get you.

Mike Hesketh: Try and do it with, you know, panache and style. But there’s a benefit to everybody. I [00:38:20] outlined one of a peaceful weekend. Um, the other one is that you? If you’re a [00:38:25] self-employed associate, you’re always full because you get so many new patients on the weekend that [00:38:30] you end up with extra people doing it. But there is a very clear it’s the [00:38:35] accidental way or Dartmoor way, and that’s really important. Some [00:38:40] people are too delicate with their brand and aren’t don’t [00:38:45] really know their purpose. And so you need to be really clear about one of your brand values might [00:38:50] be accessibility. Well, if you’re accessible, you either need to do late nights or you need to be doing the [00:38:55] weekends if that’s one of your brand values. So it’s knowing your brand and. [00:39:00]

Payman Langroudi: Communicating your brand to your people.

Mike Hesketh: And so you just attract like minded people. I never I’ve [00:39:05] never really gotten rid of anybody really, other than, um, people just self-selecting out [00:39:10] of the business, just leaving because they, they weren’t in line with the brand values.

Payman Langroudi: Not [00:39:15] the financials of this business were just extraordinary. Right. So just go through that [00:39:20] because you sold it, what, 4 or 5 years after you bought it.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, yeah. So we bought it for 230 K [00:39:25] in the end.

Payman Langroudi: Turning over 500.

Mike Hesketh: Turning over 500. Yeah. And [00:39:30] then four years later it was turning over 2.5 million. And we sold it [00:39:35] to Bupa for a £3.2 million.

Payman Langroudi: Extraordinary.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. [00:39:40] And winning the lottery.

Payman Langroudi: You’d expect in order to get that level of growth you’d [00:39:45] expect to be not only working seven days a week, [00:39:50] but also grinding the team on sales and and bringing [00:39:55] in loads of new services and all that. Is that the case or with with these guys doing so little [00:40:00] that it was easy to. Yeah. It’s never easy to go from half a million to no. [00:40:05] 2.5 million.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. No. Sometimes like one of the growth was like, you know, 600,000 [00:40:10] back in the day. It was when it was quite competitive as well. It was pre-COVID. Um, but [00:40:15] what we do is we create a whirlwind. Okay. So everyone picks a lane. So each of [00:40:20] the associates picks a special interest a specialism. Yeah. And they have to do a master’s in it. So [00:40:25] you have your endo your oral surgery, your ortho, your and you know, all of [00:40:30] it prosthetics.

Payman Langroudi: So that you don’t refer out.

Mike Hesketh: So you refer no work out. Yeah. And then you create a work and [00:40:35] you walk around banging the drum for world class care. Yeah. You present the case to the university tutor at the end [00:40:40] of the course of treatment, as if you were going to present the case. Okay?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Hesketh: And [00:40:45] we didn’t get there, but we were a long way towards it. And what we do is we create a whirlwind [00:40:50] of internal referrals and a team approach to dentistry. And it worked really well [00:40:55] in a city centre location. The practice was over six floors, cosmetically based all on [00:41:00] fours doing advanced dentistry. Not many children know NHS contract denplan [00:41:05] list. So a very different brand to our current practice Dartmoor. [00:41:10] But we created this system where we just have internal referrals and refer no work [00:41:15] out. But each associate that joined, there’d be one of them [00:41:20] that would do ortho, one of them that would do implants, one of them that do endo not two.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. [00:41:25]

Mike Hesketh: And I said to them if you want to work here as a generalist then you have to do one [00:41:30] weekend in uh five. And no one is bigger than the team. It’s [00:41:35] a one in all in military ethos. And I will not stop investing [00:41:40] until we have everything that’s in the market that makes you efficient equipment. [00:41:45] Facilities. Laura knew how to do the customer service [00:41:50] and the ethos of the practice. And I knew how to bring high quality [00:41:55] clinical care, because a lot of my patients were seen by other dentists in the military [00:42:00] who were, Eastman qualified. And and so you become well calibrated as a dentist. [00:42:05]

Payman Langroudi: And marketing wise, you must have done a lot of marketing, right?

Mike Hesketh: So we [00:42:10] we did a bit of PPC and a bit of SEO. We did. We got we cottoned on to the Google [00:42:15] local listing really quickly in 2012. And we just knew everyone was using Google. Yeah. And [00:42:20] so but we had three new websites within three within 3 or 4 years. So we, we changed the websites, [00:42:25] did a bit of blogging, but really about £1,000 a month. Um, on marketing we [00:42:30] got up to 200 new private patients a month.

Payman Langroudi: So where did they come from? Word of mouth?

Mike Hesketh: I think so, [00:42:35] yeah. Because once you start investing, um, and driving the standards higher, [00:42:40] people talk and all of a sudden if you refer in no work out, they’re getting everything [00:42:45] in one in a, in a one stop shop. Um, it just snowballed so quickly [00:42:50] that like on a Monday we get like 28 new patients call. And I used to say to them, you could [00:42:55] have called yesterday, we’re open yesterday. But even on the front line of the business, it was open seven days a week. [00:43:00] They were like, oh, you’re open on a Sunday. I’m like, yeah, seven days a week. You know, you could have called [00:43:05] yesterday, really, but you’d end up with 28 new new patients on a Monday calling when it was [00:43:10] difficult to get them. Um, it was like a whirlwind of business growth [00:43:15] that, um, it was making 500,000 a year at the end. [00:43:20] But I was only working. I’d stopped clinical at year three, and I was only working [00:43:25] two days a week before that.

Payman Langroudi: So you were taking 500,000 out of the business, [00:43:30] only working, not working.

Mike Hesketh: And I was I was I was a student.

Payman Langroudi: Were you doing that [00:43:35] on purpose?

Mike Hesketh: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Or was it just that, you know, you decided you didn’t want to be the clinical [00:43:40] guy. You’re more excited by the management side.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, well, I [00:43:45] don’t think I could cope with the clinical work as well as the rapid growth of the business. [00:43:50] It was too many inputs and so something needed to give. And one of my patients was a university [00:43:55] lecturer at Exeter Uni. And she said, oh, if you’re a local entrepreneur that [00:44:00] we’d like to give people a free MBA. Free? Yeah. For free. A 30 grand MBA. And I was [00:44:05] like, okay, what’s this about? She said, well, we have a lot of international students whose first language are not is not English, [00:44:10] and they find it difficult. So we need like a fulcrum of the quota. Yeah. First, first [00:44:15] language English in the room. And so they gave out eight of them. And she said if you get your application [00:44:20] within within 48 hours, I can get you a free MBA at Exeter University, which is a, [00:44:25] you know, it’s top ten university business school. And so I was like, okay, so I’ll do [00:44:30] that. And that gave me a, um, explanation to the patients of why I’m not [00:44:35] clinical anymore. But it was very affirmatory of affirmative. And an MBA was. There was modules [00:44:40] on AI, modules on blockchain. It was in 2016, 2017 modules [00:44:45] on accountancy. I’m not sure I learnt a lot except [00:44:50] I should have bought Bitcoin.

Payman Langroudi: I was going to ask you, do you, do you recommend dentists to do an MBA? [00:44:55] Because I know loads of people who’ve done an MBA. Non dentists and I don’t know, [00:45:00] they come into one of two types when I asked them about it. Uh, one is they [00:45:05] meet a lot of people on the MBA. So it’s that sort of contacts way of things. [00:45:10] Um, some of them want to go and run, you know, multinationals. Um, [00:45:15] but a lot of them say that, you know, it’s like they wanted to plug a weakness. [00:45:20]

Mike Hesketh: Um, I think if you’re a small business owner in dentistry or any other small business. Yeah, [00:45:25] it people go, oh, I should probably do an MBA. Yeah. And when you’re on it, you could probably do teach some of [00:45:30] the modules, especially if it’s a small business owner.

Payman Langroudi: Really? Really. Yeah.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, yeah. Because the modules are divided into as I [00:45:35] described. So I mean, even on, um, the, um, some of the statistics module, [00:45:40] you know, you start with an actuary who’s, you know, who is a brain size of a planet working out [00:45:45] pensions. I mean, they can teach that lesson on statistics. Um, and [00:45:50] sometimes they’d have a guest lecturer in. And I couldn’t bear listening anymore. Like, especially when the [00:45:55] banks came in, you know, and they tell you how the world is and you’re like, hang on a minute. That’s [00:46:00] that’s rubbish. You know, so you’ve got to bite your tongue. But what it did do was [00:46:05] it again, it was a bit of an enlightenment. Enlightenment, um, moment. [00:46:10] This whole small business thing coming from the military was, you know, I was in a very British, [00:46:15] you know, environment, then a small business, and then you go [00:46:20] into an international environment of a university as a as a postgraduate, [00:46:25] so to speak. And you’re with Chevening scholars from the South America [00:46:30] or Africa, who were the brightest of the brightest of the British government, paid for to have soft power influence [00:46:35] around the world. I think there’s 20 or 30 presidents of countries that were British Chevening scholars. [00:46:40] And so you sat with these people who think differently, talk differently. And [00:46:45] I’ve tried to not always be forceful, try to listen [00:46:50] and understand and know my limitations of where I grew up, and try and listen to these people [00:46:55] that have different challenges. And to be honest, I would say [00:47:00] 75% of the course were very left wing and you’re just not surrounded [00:47:05] by that. You know where I grew up. And so, um, and you think, ah, [00:47:10] and they had very valid points, um, around social justice, around [00:47:15] caring for people.

Mike Hesketh: And I enjoyed it and I actually enjoyed [00:47:20] my friends from it. And there were 5 or 10 years younger than me, but they’re really good friends [00:47:25] and they’ve gone on to do wonderful things. Um, but I was doing that whilst the practice, [00:47:30] I’d do the morning huddle and I’d walk up the hill to the Exeter University and [00:47:35] the business would just go on without me. Seven chairs turning and burning. And I’d just [00:47:40] do that. Morning huddle, ten 15 minutes drop Poppy at school, at the Cathedral School in Exeter and then [00:47:45] walk up the hill. Um, it was a very good time. And then it was about three quarters [00:47:50] of the way through the MBA that I bumped into Dental elite at a show. And I [00:47:55] said, oh, um, it was actually Dental elite. We bought the practice through. And, um, [00:48:00] I said, well, we bought it for 230, its EBITDA. Is this what do you think [00:48:05] it’s worth? And they said, oh, you could probably put it on the market at 3.1 million. Whoa. Jesus. [00:48:10] Wow. And I think it was a four year turnaround. And I just wanted [00:48:15] a break. I’d gone to uni at 18, Navy at 22, bought [00:48:20] a business at 30, and I was 34. I just wanted a break. And [00:48:25] so, um, Poppy was five, Hugo was [00:48:30] three, and I said I just wanted to spend more time with him, probably coming [00:48:35] back to my father. Um, and I just wanted to spend more time with him. So I said, let’s sell. We know [00:48:40] we we’ve got a fantastic financial planner in Thomas Dixon of Wealth. And he said, you’re going to have to go [00:48:45] again. The computer program says, you’re going to have to.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not enough money.

Mike Hesketh: For [00:48:50] the rest of your life, because you still had about 700 grand a.

Payman Langroudi: Day because you were too young.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, yeah. Too young. And [00:48:55] you’re going to need to, he said. But people like you go again. I was like, no, I’m worn [00:49:00] out. Like I it’s been such a rapid growth. I’ve got my MBA now. Um, and, [00:49:05] um, yeah. And travelling around the world, um, and we just.

Payman Langroudi: How was that?

Mike Hesketh: The [00:49:10] best part of my life? The highlight of my life. Um, I just [00:49:15] wish we could go back and do more of it. Um, we set off, [00:49:20] um, down to Singapore and an old Navy mate that was in Afghanistan with five years before [00:49:25] or three. Four? Yeah, five years before. Um. And he was [00:49:30] working for Lloyd’s of London ship crashes investigation. And if you ever fly into Singapore, it’s [00:49:35] something to behold. The bay there and the amount of ships. So I can see why he’s late. He’s located there. And [00:49:40] so he was doing well for himself. So, um, we stayed in his place in Sentosa Island, [00:49:45] which was fantastic, of Singapore. And he put us up for a week or two, and we just decided [00:49:50] to travel so slowly. And I’d been to enough rough places. I said to my wife, [00:49:55] we’re not going to go anywhere controversial, like even, you know, more [00:50:00] than what you’d class modern countries, I’d say, right. We’re just going to go to easy places, not going [00:50:05] to need any vaccines. We’re not we don’t have to worry about. We’ve got five and a three year old in tow and [00:50:10] a couple of weeks in Singapore.

Payman Langroudi: Did you large it? Were you going like business [00:50:15] class? I mean, £3 million just hit your account.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, yeah. So, uh, it was funny actually, [00:50:20] because I rang Thomas once and I was going into Exeter city centre and [00:50:25] I said, I’ll wait there a minute. I just got get on the bus. Give me a second. He was like, why are you getting on a bus? And I [00:50:30] don’t know. It’s just easier. I live in Devon and there’s a bus, so there’s not. There’s not over, you know. And he [00:50:35] was like, yeah, you could just get a taxi into town, couldn’t you? Shopping. And I was like, I don’t know, mate. [00:50:40] I just get on the bus. So we bought £1,000 student ticket to go around the world. [00:50:45] And so four of them. And it’s one of those ones you remember back in the day in uni sta travel? [00:50:50] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And you divide the world into orange segments and you can’t go back on a segment. Yeah, yeah. So we did [00:50:55] that. So we, um, we did this orange segment.

Payman Langroudi: Just to be sensible.

Mike Hesketh: I [00:51:00] don’t know, really. And then. Yeah. And then we did Airbnb. Um, but we got really good at it. Um, [00:51:05] even travelling with small children. Um, because then we went to Australia, New Zealand, the Cook [00:51:10] Islands and the Cook Islands. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What was that like?

Mike Hesketh: Amazing. That’s where Hugo really came alive. [00:51:15] He. I remember him jumping off a boat and swimming down the anchor chain. Like he’s an outdoor boy. [00:51:20] I think he might end up being a commando. We’d spend a lot of time sleeping outside on Dartmoor. [00:51:25] Just he and I with the dog. He loves it. He says, dad, I feel free. I okay [00:51:30] anyway. So yeah, he he loved the Cook Islands and um.

Payman Langroudi: Is it as you would imagine. [00:51:35]

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Paradise.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. And it’s collecting crabs. It’s five hours from New Zealand. It’s [00:51:40] like halfway to South America. It’s if you ever look it up on a, it’s a dot in the middle of [00:51:45] nowhere. And, um, it’s part of New Zealand in some weird way. But [00:51:50] Poppy turned six in New Zealand on one side of the dateline, [00:51:55] woke up in the morning, had a presence and we had a flight that day on a birthday. Flew to the Cook [00:52:00] Islands, which is on the other side of the dateline. Went to bed and [00:52:05] she woke up and she was six again.

Payman Langroudi: Had her birthday again. Yeah. So we did it. We did. We did the whole party.

[BOTH]: Because how many [00:52:10] times are you. Six. So we had this party and uh. Yeah. And I think.

Mike Hesketh: You [00:52:15] know, um, marriage when you’ve got businesses and [00:52:20] pressures and Laura had put up a lot with a lot. Um.

Payman Langroudi: It gives a bit, right?

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, [00:52:25] it was hard. And I think as soon as we hit Singapore relaxed and we [00:52:30] had two suitcases, two little children travelling slowly, we educated Poppy [00:52:35] just by going to the local libraries in every city that we went to. And it was a very small world [00:52:40] and we followed the sun. So we only needed shorts, shorts and t shirts with the odd little [00:52:45] jumper. So. And then as it turned to spring and summer in the northern hemisphere, we [00:52:50] just shovelled rice. We saw a volcano go off in Hawaii. That [00:52:55] was a and the children talk about it now in school that they’ve sat on the end. We just got lucky. We [00:53:00] went to a national park there and it erupts every 20 years. And we just checked in and [00:53:05] the lady at the desk said, oh, you’re lucky you bought this six months ago. These, these rooms. I was like, yeah. [00:53:10] And the room was overlooking a lava spouting and the room at night was orange. [00:53:15]

[BOTH]: So we had all these.

Mike Hesketh: Experiences that travel brought us [00:53:20] and, uh, yeah, it’s the best time of our life, really. We were evacuated, actually, in [00:53:25] the end from that. So that was the only slightly dodgy place that we went to. We had to get away. We actually [00:53:30] got a lot of messages from friends saying, we can see from your Instagram you were near that volcano that’s going off wrecking [00:53:35] towns. Like, yeah, we’ve moved now and we’ve got to fly out of here in a couple of days, so we’re fine.

Payman Langroudi: What was [00:53:40] the highlight of that trip?

Mike Hesketh: Oh, um, I love Byron Bay. [00:53:45]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Yeah.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, because I was there as a student, you know, backpacking, um, I [00:53:50] was experience. That was amazing. Um, and so, yeah, I like Byron Bay. My [00:53:55] wife likes the Hamptons.

Payman Langroudi: In New York.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. Oh, and I was like, I think there’s a [00:54:00] reason we live in Devon. We don’t want to compete with London money. And I said, we’re not buying in the Hamptons. We’re not [00:54:05] competing with New York money. Darling, we’re not giving you with that. Uh, but she. But, [00:54:10] like. Yeah, the Hamptons. Lara has really high standards of everything that [00:54:15] she does. And she worked in the centre of London. She worked for a really good talent management company, [00:54:20] Really good friends.

Payman Langroudi: When you say she was responsible for the creative. Yeah. Oh. Is [00:54:25] it. Do you mean broadly, or do you literally mean the brand? Um, [00:54:30] is it something else broadly?

Mike Hesketh: The customer service, the end to end patient journey, the [00:54:35] brand, the standards and the evolution of the brand? Um, which is important. [00:54:40] A lot of people will take their business at 500 grand, and then they’ll [00:54:45] do really well. They’ll grow it, they’ll double the turnover, and it will take like a couple of years. And then you [00:54:50] say, well, is that the same business as that one? But they keep the same brand, and [00:54:55] there is an evolution of a brand that happens in small business that people, um, [00:55:00] don’t keep up with. It costs money to re website. Um, keep on top of your [00:55:05] colours, keep on top of your theme. But Dartmoor Dental, our current business has done [00:55:10] exactly the same. And so Laura did a brand within 24 hours. Um, [00:55:15] I’m still in trouble for. But did a brand, um, quickly for me when we bought the business, and [00:55:20] then we shared that with the team, took the brand standards to them. And [00:55:25] then three years later, she’s now going through the brand standard again and a completely different [00:55:30] but that business, Dartmoor. We was turning over 700 K when we bought it. It’s now doing [00:55:35] 2.5 million. Three years later, those two businesses are different. It’s got different people in [00:55:40] it even serves different.

Payman Langroudi: Different time as well. Right?

[BOTH]: Macroeconomically yeah, [00:55:45] yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Totally different time.

Mike Hesketh: We bought it just after Covid and now it’s, you know, we [00:55:50] you know, we don’t do any cosmetics. We haven’t done any cosmetics or aligners or anything to get that growth. [00:55:55]

Payman Langroudi: Really.

Mike Hesketh: There’s no there’s no cosmetics or aesthetics. It’s just just drive the standards higher.

Payman Langroudi: Implant. [00:56:00]

Mike Hesketh: Um, yes. We’ve got a very good visiting implantologist who’s done a thousand [00:56:05] straumann implants. He’s brilliant and he’s a good friend. Um, he was recommended from a mutual friend [00:56:10] to come and join us. Um, and so we did a bit of implants, but not full arches, you [00:56:15] know, 1 or 2 placements and put all all the growth is around this whirlwind [00:56:20] of a system of of each dentist picking a lane. And then we’ve got five therapists [00:56:25] and then the five therapists then cover the NHS contract, which is our social contract. [00:56:30] I treat it as a charity, and we’re the only one of six practices in the town that do NHS, and [00:56:35] we look after the poorest in society and it costs us double what the NHS [00:56:40] pays us to look after 3000 children and 1000 adults, and these 1000 adults have [00:56:45] got no money.

Payman Langroudi: What are you doing it almost out of philanthropy.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, yeah. So we so we do, um, [00:56:50] we supplement the NHS care with our private work. [00:56:55] And so say the contracts, 350 grand or something to look after 4000 people. [00:57:00] We I think it costs us around about 600, £650,000 [00:57:05] to, to deliver that care. So that’s 300,000 that we out-of-pocket. Yeah. [00:57:10] Yeah. I mean it’s not the brightest business strategy in the world. No. In the round [00:57:15] of the world. It’s going to come good. I’m sure. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, let’s [00:57:20] just walk through that. Is it that you can literally see need and as part of that [00:57:25] community you want to you’re there, you want to service that need.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. And I think it probably takes me [00:57:30] back to the medical Shuras sat in the middle of Afghanistan. Sounds awful because of the Dental desert in Devon [00:57:35] and Cornwall. There’s no clinicians.

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Mike Hesketh: Um, but luckily, one of my good friends from [00:57:40] Afghanistan, Ewan MacColl, is the dean of Peninsula Dental [00:57:45] School, and I think he’s chair of this, that and the other on a national level now. But he’s my mate. [00:57:50] We spent a lot of time running together in Afghanistan, him much faster than me. And [00:57:55] so he very kindly recommends us to the dental school, hygiene [00:58:00] therapy school and the dentist down there. So he does sort of recommend us highly, which is [00:58:05] nice, but I tried to live up to that. So I have a connection, a network of military [00:58:10] or ex-military clinicians in the southwest. But if you put an advert out for an NHS [00:58:15] dentist, you’re not going to get one. So what we try and do is go around the problem and [00:58:20] use therapists. Um, but to full scope, um, and then associate dentists [00:58:25] to do it and everyone, including the highest grossing dentists in our practice, [00:58:30] have to do NHS work, including me.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. So for the last, we’re all zoned in [00:58:35] the diaries, and it’s the last hour of the day. We turn into an NHS clinic and everyone does [00:58:40] the children as they leave school. And the aim is to, um, look after all the children [00:58:45] of Tavistock and the five villages around us. And I know there’s NHS rules on accepting [00:58:50] everybody, but we look after our own backyard. I don’t even live there. It’s an hour away from me. It’s [00:58:55] not even my, um, community.

Payman Langroudi: You know, you could. I don’t want to be reductive about it. Yeah. [00:59:00] Because it’s a beautiful thing. And so. Yeah. There it is. It’s fine. But you could have take that £350,000 [00:59:05] and given it to fallen soldiers families or to Afghanistan. [00:59:10] You could have done anything with that £300,000, but you choose to do it. Are there other benefits to [00:59:15] the business? Like is there a one for all? All for one? The fact that all the clinicians are having to do this [00:59:20] NHS thing.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. And and you know, you asked before about what happens if they don’t do seven day opening. Well [00:59:25] if someone doesn’t it’s too good to look after the NHS patients. And [00:59:30] they don’t.

Payman Langroudi: They’re not right for you.

Mike Hesketh: They’re not right for us. But I still want them to be high end dentists. And you think, well, how do [00:59:35] they switch? Well, they don’t switch.

Payman Langroudi: They just do high end dentistry on the case.

Mike Hesketh: That’s why it costs you so much. So it’s [00:59:40] not a great business strategy. So in any way, it’s not really. But, um, what what it has [00:59:45] done, its part of the brand values is we list it as socially aware. So we try and [00:59:50] walk the walk. Um, and yeah, of course, there’s, um, a lot of parents that [00:59:55] don’t qualify because it’s an exempt contract. So it’s children. And like I say, a thousand people who can [01:00:00] get benefits can qualify for it. We can’t take any more patients on. But we [01:00:05] took on a thousand last year. Um, we just put some messages out on [01:00:10] Facebook and to the local schools and said, we’ve got some space for children. And so we took on children [01:00:15] and it ended up with 1000 extra children. That made the BBC news. So [01:00:20] from a brand awareness, you could say, yeah. [01:00:25] And the PR, the power of the BBC is ridiculous. Yeah, yeah. Um, and the [01:00:30] local Facebook groups as well. It gives, gives us credibility. Um, [01:00:35] and the business, you know, still makes 15, 20% profit. It’s [01:00:40] fine. Um, we’re investing heavily. It’s a 200 year old manor house. [01:00:45] So I’ve got.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve.

Mike Hesketh: Got builders everywhere. Yeah, yeah. So, um, we’ve we’ve refitted eight [01:00:50] surgeries in those three years, and we’ve just put in a ninth this week, and we’ll put a 10th in next [01:00:55] week. Um, and, but every facility has been upgraded. The [01:01:00] first thing we did was the female changing rooms because they were gross. They were in the basement and we refitted all of those. [01:01:05] But what I most love is that the. There’s a couple of partners that have stayed on out [01:01:10] the four that I bought it off and they’ve really embraced it. And so one of them that [01:01:15] um, it was advised to me to get rid of at the beginning I was like, no, [01:01:20] let’s have a little let’s have a think about this is now grossing 40,000 a [01:01:25] month, is doing high end dentistry, is, um, absolutely beautiful [01:01:30] work. And he’s admitted himself he wasn’t very keen [01:01:35] on me at the beginning and what the changes we were going to bring. But we’ve invested so much, [01:01:40] um, that it’s brilliant bringing people on, even partners [01:01:45] who have stayed there for quite a while.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s that’s quite an achievement. Right. Well, he could [01:01:50] have switched off completely reactivated him, took him the other way.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. And there was no tie in. I just gave him all the money [01:01:55] and said, stay or don’t stay, I don’t I’m not into tie ins. It’s [01:02:00] easy to control when it’s me. You know obviously for corporates it’s different and for independent groups who have [01:02:05] got 20, 30 practices. That’s fine. But for me, I don’t. You [01:02:10] know, if someone doesn’t want to be there, don’t worry about it. It’s fine. But we are going to put £1 million [01:02:15] investment into this place. So why wouldn’t you be here? And by the way, [01:02:20] you get to pick a lane and that’s all about you. And we’ll highlight you and we’ll develop you and we’ll give [01:02:25] you the best chairs, we’ll give you the best equipment. And by the way, your turnover will go [01:02:30] from 10,000 a month to 40,000 a month. It was a seven year practice doing 700 grand. So you [01:02:35] can imagine the style of dentistry doing 100 grand per chair. So I work on ratios of turnover [01:02:40] per chair.

Payman Langroudi: And your 20% that you’re talking about, is it still 20% bearing in mind all the investment. [01:02:45]

Mike Hesketh: No no no no no.

Payman Langroudi: It’s once the investment is done it’ll be 20%. Yeah, yeah.

Mike Hesketh: So [01:02:50] we have a do you know I have a dental accountancy firm.

Payman Langroudi: You own one?

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. [01:02:55]

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. By, um, by just, um, need [01:03:00] necessity for the profession. Right. Okay. So I’ll tell you about this. So, um, [01:03:05] when we had Exeter, I had this amazing accountant who was a friend, um, in [01:03:10] the southwest. I was talking to her, and I said, I need some help with numbers. And she said, [01:03:15] okay, but she’s a chartered accountant from outside of dentistry, and she’s my sage [01:03:20] advisor. She tells me when I’ve got it wrong, she tells me, you know, almost like a business advisor in a way, and [01:03:25] kept it close to my chest. And the consultancy that I [01:03:30] do, um, comes about from meeting with Ashley Latta. And Ashley said, could I do an entrepreneurs [01:03:35] group talk for him? And I’m currently doing the Chris Burrow 100 club talk [01:03:40] for him, his series and all of that was good. But one [01:03:45] of the four pillars that I work with people on, the last one is financial command and control, and command and control [01:03:50] is very military term. Yeah, but what we had was a couple of clients [01:03:55] that came on board with me and I said, what? What’s X, Y and Z are your numbers? And [01:04:00] we could see errors all through their accounting software zero 30 [01:04:05] page reports being generated. Automated generated, just useless data [01:04:10] built on sand because the bookkeeping wasn’t good enough. So many errors, double [01:04:15] invoices, statements posted. I said, look, I, I’m wary that I’m trying to create [01:04:20] family wealth, time and money for you as a consultant and you don’t know your numbers. And it came to [01:04:25] a head. There was a client in bath and, um, there were so many errors [01:04:30] in their accounting system from a Dental accountant, C um, [01:04:35] based in the southwest as well, who got it so wrong that they [01:04:40] were almost going to get sued.

Mike Hesketh: And so I spoke to Jodi, who I’d kept close to my chest, and [01:04:45] I said, Jodi, we need to help this person out, clean up all the mess in their accounting system based on [01:04:50] zero and these reports. And Jodi went through and cleaned it all up, and then [01:04:55] that person then told someone else, and then that person told someone else. And so then Jodi said to me, look, [01:05:00] there’s a problem in the profession of lack of accuracy of bookkeeping. Like financial [01:05:05] rigour on bookkeeping, these. These firms aren’t doing it. They’re passing it to junior clerk who’s pasting [01:05:10] statements to the accounts. So I said, okay, what [01:05:15] is the problem for everybody? Right. She said, yeah. She said, well, why don’t we start an accountancy [01:05:20] firm as well. So I have this accountancy firm with now, I think we’re coming up to 30 clients [01:05:25] that we work with on a bespoke level. It’s Jody, it’s her [01:05:30] team, and they start from bookkeeping. And because now they they [01:05:35] also Jody has a small share in Dartmoor in our practice. She is [01:05:40] an owner. She understands running a large dental practice and where the errors are made. Associate [01:05:45] pay um interest rates are incorrect from the bank. She got a client [01:05:50] back £13,000 overnight a couple of months ago. Um, she goes through the [01:05:55] associate pay calculations, and we found a client who’s overpaying by £17,000. And [01:06:00] these were Dental accountants. Oh, yeah. By each month to associates just on their pay structure. [01:06:05] So now when I work.

Payman Langroudi: Here, the error could be in that direction as well. It’s [01:06:10] always tends to be in the other direction.

Mike Hesketh: It’s funny isn’t it, how the errors always fall in the bank’s favour. So [01:06:15] yeah, I own an a Dental accountancy. I don’t know how we got on to that, but I now [01:06:20] own a Dental accountancy that’s growing nicely and and, um, it’s it’s a joy, really, [01:06:25] because I operationally, I have minimal input to it, but it’s my name on it. It’s called [01:06:30] Hesketh Healthcare accounting. Um, and, and every week we sign up a new client. And [01:06:35] Jodie really loves undoing the mess that’s behind the scenes. A lot of [01:06:40] people don’t even know there’s a mess.

Payman Langroudi: Now that you’ve been exposed to, I guess three different [01:06:45] business models, right? The Dental practice model. Yeah. The, um. [01:06:50] Consulting. Yeah. And now the accountancy model. Yeah. [01:06:55] How how do you rate dentistry as a business? I mean, I think we all [01:07:00] understand. Hey, it’s a safe business. Um, we don’t, you know, not [01:07:05] many. The 24 years we’ve been operating, not many of our customers have gone bust. No. It’s [01:07:10] happened, it has happened. Some some people overspend right at the beginning. Sometimes. That sort of thing. [01:07:15] Yeah. Um, at the same time, not many do exactly [01:07:20] what you did that grow it so quickly. And I mean, that’s a ten-x exit [01:07:25] you got after four years. Yeah. Um, grow it that quickly and and exit and then do [01:07:30] it again. And it’s obviously in a totally different practice. You’re repeating it. Yeah. How does [01:07:35] it compare? I mean, consulting is nice, right? Isn’t it. It’s words. It’s [01:07:40] it’s not you’re not you’re not having to break your back.

Mike Hesketh: I think it’s a soft profession. And [01:07:45] the barriers to entry are really high, aren’t they. You’ve got to be on the register in some way or the other. Um, and I think [01:07:50] there’s 8000 independent practices in the UK from the Christie’s report and about 4000 [01:07:55] within corporates. So there’s 8000 practices that are owned single [01:08:00] single owners.

Payman Langroudi: Do you mean the competitive environment is limited by that barrier to entry?

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, there’s a [01:08:05] high barrier to entry and also the cost of the rooms. You know, the surgeries are 50 grand aren’t they. Yeah. So the cost [01:08:10] to entry is high for medical compliance. So you need a bit of weight behind your money wise. Now [01:08:15] there seems to be a lot of squats opening up, especially around Birmingham and London at the moment.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:08:20]

Mike Hesketh: Um, I think they’re the ones that I worry about. Worry about a little bit, because I [01:08:25] think the Instagram bubble is is passing as well because of AI [01:08:30] and the content creation. And so they’re being drowned and it’s not good enough just [01:08:35] to have, you know, fancy plastered walls and, uh, a nice, a nice front desk anymore with [01:08:40] a, with a nice sign. I think there’s a danger I get phone calls from people saying we [01:08:45] haven’t got enough patients. These squat Start-Ups. Now, they’re not all like that. And some are very successful. Um, [01:08:50] I can think of ones that have gone to 2 million turnover within a couple of years, but [01:08:55] I think it’s harder to do that right now because the barrier to entry is quite high. So if you can [01:09:00] get hold of a practice that you can buy and layer on, I’ll probably always just buy practices and [01:09:05] layer on success over the top of them, um, and try and do things better. Mainly [01:09:10] because I follow the advice from coaches that we talked about right at the beginning, and I try and [01:09:15] put everything in place to make it world class.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I think I heard you say something about [01:09:20] principals get too emotionally involved in, in so many aspects of their [01:09:25] business. Yeah. And you were talking about leakage and I thought about we [01:09:30] leak, we enlighten, we leak loads. Yeah. But I don’t see it as personal [01:09:35] leakage. I see it as the company. Yeah. But going back to the squat thing, a lot of [01:09:40] people, they want they want to do this dream. Yeah. Sort of blank canvas [01:09:45] thing. Yeah. And you know your motivation for what you do, it’s [01:09:50] very interesting.

Mike Hesketh: Well, if you can.

Payman Langroudi: If it scratches a particular rich for you.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah it does. [01:09:55] But if you if look, be honest with you. Everyone’s going to do what I ask in my own business. Yeah. Because of [01:10:00] the way that I approach it. Um, so to me, it is a fresh start up. [01:10:05] I bought what was called Limmeridge House Dental, changed the name, rebranded it. We always rebrand. [01:10:10]

Payman Langroudi: This Dartmoor.

Mike Hesketh: To Dartmoor. Yeah. So I bought that in 2022. So it’s three years old now. And, [01:10:15] um, I was always going to layer on, um, a different systems and [01:10:20] processes. So it’s like a squat to me, but it just happens to have 700 grand a turnover [01:10:25] when we started. And a lot of loyal patients.

Payman Langroudi: 0 to 700 is the hardest, isn’t it.

Mike Hesketh: That’s [01:10:30] what I’m saying. Yeah. That’s what takes sort of five years really 3 to 5 years for a lot of people. [01:10:35] I know that there’s I think sometimes the squats that do really well are squats from people that own [01:10:40] others and they know the game. But, um, I know people who have had three practices [01:10:45] and done a fourth squat and they said the squat was the hardest, um, to get going. And it’s just [01:10:50] a niche they want to scratch. And can we just do it? Because you don’t want to pay that purchase price, [01:10:55] but there’s so much value in the purchase price that especially if you can, you know, use [01:11:00] that 700 to £1 million springboard straight away. I think Dartmoor last year grew 900,000 in [01:11:05] 1 year. So we’re saying 0 to 700 is hard to get. The momentum [01:11:10] we grew last year 900.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. Once you start to get and everyone starts to get it. [01:11:15]

Payman Langroudi: And how do you feel. So I guess you don’t agree with that advice that says, don’t [01:11:20] come in and change the name and change the processes straight away.

Mike Hesketh: Change everything, change [01:11:25] everything.

Payman Langroudi: Talk me through it. Because because the standard advice is kind of don’t scare everyone off [01:11:30] at the first moment. And you know, I’ve got this place I buy, um, fruit, [01:11:35] fruit and veg, right? Yeah. It’s God, that’s very expensive. It’s [01:11:40] right opposite my, my kids school. It’s very good. It’s very good. Yeah, [01:11:45] it’s expensive, but it’s good. Yeah. You get the fruit and veg in this place that you just don’t get anywhere else. Right, okay. [01:11:50] It got sold and on day one I walked in and [01:11:55] the till wasn’t where it usually is. It was somewhere else. Yeah. Now what was going [01:12:00] through my head was what about the fennel. Yeah. Is the fennel still going to come from [01:12:05] the same supplier or not. And by the way, I got over it. I’m still I’m still shopping there. Yeah, but [01:12:10] but the advice is don’t go change everything. Don’t scare the staff, don’t scare the patients. [01:12:15] And evolution rather than revolution. Yeah. So you differ from that.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. We we differ from that. Bearing [01:12:20] in mind what we buy though, we buy massively underperforming practices that have scope for growth. [01:12:25] One of the.

Payman Langroudi: First time you didn’t even realise you were doing that right. The first time you were just buying. But the second time took [01:12:30] me through that. The second time you were looking for that, were you?

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. So we’re looking for something that has been on the market for 2 [01:12:35] or 3 years. It’s probably too big for a new associate to take on. It’s seven chairs [01:12:40] turning over 700 grand, and I originally offered 800 to buy it, but I [01:12:45] got it for 600. Just when you go for the due diligence and work through the process. Um, and [01:12:50] they’re, you know, they’re rough and ready, you know, um, loyal patient base probably been there the practice. Been [01:12:55] there a hundred years. Um, in the southwest. It’s a very stable patient base, a lot of retirees. [01:13:00] So they’ll tell you, you know, they don’t like the change. But the key thing, what you [01:13:05] talked about the fruit and veg is you gave them a chance. You gave them one chance. You turned up once, you knew it had been [01:13:10] bought and sold. And you’re like, oh, the tills in a different place. Maybe that gave you a trigger, but ultimately you gave [01:13:15] it a chance. You probably give it another chance. And and just to weigh up another [01:13:20] drop off or another pickup. Do I like it? Do I not like it? And so you’ll give it a couple of chances. [01:13:25] So the key is, is those chants. And so people are loyal either to the dentist that’s retiring [01:13:30] or they’re loyal to the building. They’ll give the building another chance.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Hesketh: Um, [01:13:35] and don’t get me wrong, there will be ten grams from [01:13:40] patients who will write very eloquently about why I’m the worst person in the world of [01:13:45] a couple of thousand members.

Payman Langroudi: Now, don’t take that personally. [01:13:50]

Mike Hesketh: If I took that personally. I mean, I do have a bit. I do have a bit of fun with it. I, um, [01:13:55] I, uh, ring them.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Mike Hesketh: Do you? Yeah, yeah, I ring them and I go, [01:14:00] oh, can I just to try and turn them. We try and kill them with kindness. That old adage and, uh, the [01:14:05] team are built around that, so. But you will get ten naysayers. And a [01:14:10] lot of the time, people that have been coming to the building, having the dentistry, they go, yeah, it [01:14:15] needed investment and it needed change, and they’ll give you a chance. But bear in mind [01:14:20] that there are six practices within the same town in Tavistock, and all the others are private and we’re private, [01:14:25] but with this NHS contract, um, and so they give you a chance and [01:14:30] so then you’ve got to try and do it with empathy, with care, with communication. [01:14:35] And you say, right, the brand values are we’re moving to this, we’re changing the name. [01:14:40] Limmeridge House is a manor house. It’s 200 years old. It’s always been called Longbridge, [01:14:45] but we’re going to call it Dartmoor Dental around a national park which is aesthetically pleasing [01:14:50] and desirable. Um, and we will try and give an experience [01:14:55] to patients. Um, but I don’t really buy into this, um, something [01:15:00] new. Um, we we’re not reinventing the wheel and, you know, sort of the strap [01:15:05] lines doing dentistry differently from corporates and mini corporates. And you’re just [01:15:10] raising the standards, which is great. Everyone’s investing and raising standards, but no one’s really doing much different. [01:15:15] You know, we’re not reinventing the wheel in those 8000 practices. And I don’t think many they [01:15:20] might be buying them different, different ownership structures. But in reality it’s just [01:15:25] a catchphrase really.

Payman Langroudi: But to grow them the way you have, you must be. Now, when you say raise [01:15:30] standards, you’re comprehensively treatment planning. Yeah. And I guess sometimes you’re breaking [01:15:35] bad news to people, right? I mean, you know, if the dentists have been sort of very laissez faire [01:15:40] And then you come in and say, right, full mouth rehab. Yeah. How do you manage that? [01:15:45] Because, by the way, they watch the place being done up. Yeah. That cynicism comes in as well.

Mike Hesketh: And [01:15:50] actually my hygiene.

Payman Langroudi: For it or whatever.

Mike Hesketh: My hygienist and we were at the private dentistry awards on [01:15:55] Friday night. So, uh, we won most improved practice, which is a brilliant, um, [01:16:00] thing for us in the hygienist that I chose to join us. Um, they’re so expensive. Those [01:16:05] awards, I can only bring one staff member. So my manager was up for an award, and then the hygienist, [01:16:10] who’s very loyal, and she told me a story about a patient saying, well, I can see where the money is going [01:16:15] now. And she said, yeah, you can now because the previous partners used to go on a lot of holidays. [01:16:20]

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. And so there’s a pushback from the team to say [01:16:25] hang on a minute. We never had airflows, we never had this equipment, we never had chairs [01:16:30] that went up and down smoothly and lights and cameras to show people. And so all of a [01:16:35] sudden people, you’d be surprised that how even patients are accepting of the new world [01:16:40] and how it moves on. And so long as you deliver it with empathy and you don’t [01:16:45] criticise your predecessor, I mean, it’s just a lose lose if you criticise your predecessor. [01:16:50] Yeah. Um, and so I remember a patient in Exeter in particular. [01:16:55] I felt sorry. For who? A gentleman who was sharp. And he said, why wasn’t this [01:17:00] picked up previously? Um, by the gentleman I’d been seeing for 20, 30 years? I think that was [01:17:05] a complaint. But to be fair, there was a retainer left by the gentleman there, a very honourable man, you [01:17:10] know, it was just paid out of the retainer for that. So I can remember the individual cases [01:17:15] of complaints. It’s not like it’s a wholesale. Oh, my God, there’s 11,000 patients at Dartmoor. [01:17:20] Um, and we’re gaining. But in numbers of patients [01:17:25] having a net gain. But all of them, I can’t actually tell you whether any [01:17:30] of them that have gone. Do you know what was the last two retired dentists doing? None [01:17:35] of them really. They kind of people move on and they go, oh yeah, the [01:17:40] the GRC fill ins are falling off and we do need some proper dentistry now. And I understand that.

Mike Hesketh: And to be [01:17:45] fair, they’re in a phase a lot of the time where they have some money from house downsizing and they go, it’s really important that [01:17:50] I can eat what I want. So we talk to the patients about the end point being straight white teeth. [01:17:55] We don’t even can’t even do straightening. We can now. We’ve just recruited someone who can do straightening. Um, [01:18:00] but ultimately, because straight white teeth are healthy teeth. Now, do we get there? No. [01:18:05] And patients can get off the train at any one point and get back on the train. Don’t mind that. It [01:18:10] depends on the resources of time and money, but what we what I say to the team and I have quarterly [01:18:15] meetings with the whole clinical team. I take them out for a dinner in a local hotel and we do a [01:18:20] we base everything on audits, so we audit our clinical results and then we [01:18:25] do case presentations. And um, it’s and it’s chaired not by me, but it’s chaired by [01:18:30] clinical lead in the practice. So I always appoint a clinical lead. And the clinical lead is the most valuable [01:18:35] person in the practice for me as an owner, because their decisions are untainted by money. [01:18:40] Their they are driven by clinical standards. So the material choices. But [01:18:45] when they make a choice of the type of composite, it is uniform across the practice so [01:18:50] that we have good business principles in not lots of composites going out of date because people have done different courses. [01:18:55]

Payman Langroudi: Um, how do you pick the clinical lead?

Mike Hesketh: Usually the youngest. [01:19:00]

Payman Langroudi: The youngest. Yeah.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, yeah. It’s not don’t pick the oldest. Don’t pick the youngest. Implanters. [01:19:05] Yeah. The youngest. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So explain that, um. How young.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. [01:19:10] It’s close to qualification as possible.

Payman Langroudi: The clinical Leaders course.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, yeah. [01:19:15]

Payman Langroudi: How does that.

Mike Hesketh: Work? And it’s the era of that person within the business.

Payman Langroudi: So tell [01:19:20] me. Tell me the chat you have with that person.

Mike Hesketh: Oh, well, it’s really powerful, actually, because, um. [01:19:25]

Payman Langroudi: I love that. It’s very interesting. I did not expect you to say that.

Mike Hesketh: Well, it comes from, um, [01:19:30] the Maxfacts unit. I was in in Portsmouth, in QA hospital and half [01:19:35] the team were old and bald. Military surgeons, Falklands veterans, [01:19:40] so real, you know, singly qualified some of them and but had dealt with Exocet [01:19:45] missiles through ships. So really interesting gentlemen and professors and [01:19:50] all sorts of on civilian side. And there’d be nine consultants and they’d have a load of shows, [01:19:55] um, half from the military, half from civilian world. And [01:20:00] the, the most recently qualified consultant would then step up as [01:20:05] the clinical lead, and they would then set the standards because they were the closest to the education. [01:20:10] So these were very dominant males, men who would [01:20:15] listen to their junior peer. So again, another learning from the military. [01:20:20] And so the clinician that I chose in Exeter is [01:20:25] now an associate professor at Peninsula Dental School. But he was an NHS dentist when [01:20:30] we recruited him, recruited him Recruiting from Lincolnshire, moved his family down to Devon and fair [01:20:35] dues to him took a gamble on us. Um, and I said, look, would you be the clinical lead because the [01:20:40] team are coming to you to talk about complaints from patients. They’re coming to you to [01:20:45] talk about material choices, about difficult cases. And I will pay for [01:20:50] your endodontic masters or half of it. Um, and [01:20:55] would you do two years? And he said, yeah. And I said, it’s a £500 [01:21:00] stipend per month. So they get £500, but you’ve got to do 2 or 3 hours a week on [01:21:05] driving the team on audits. So we audit filling success rates. We audit, [01:21:10] um, radiographic audits, note keeping audits on a quarterly basis. And [01:21:15] then he then set the standard for winning the wish list, which [01:21:20] is how we buy equipment. So he gets given a budget of a couple of grand for not just stock, but [01:21:25] new new equipment that we want to bring into the business like enlightened.

Payman Langroudi: Mm.

Mike Hesketh: Um, and so [01:21:30] he did that for Exeter. And then, um, he, [01:21:35] he essentially and took it all the way through to the end because we were selling it. Um, but within Dartmoor [01:21:40] there was Chrissy, who’s doing an MSC at Peninsula, [01:21:45] and it’s the era of Chrissy. So she did two years and you can extend it by one [01:21:50] year. Um, but then it’s important, you call it and you say, right, that’s the era of [01:21:55] her. And now it’s another lady called Rebecca. And Chrissy was 27 when she took her, and [01:22:00] she was an associate in the practice with four older men and hadn’t been supported. [01:22:05] I don’t feel as much as she could have done. Um, but that was their own, you know, lots of things [01:22:10] going on at the time. It’s not a criticism, but, um, she came in and then she drives the standards [01:22:15] towards, um, evidence based dentistry. And funny old thing, if [01:22:20] you put a young lady in charge, the standards go through the roof, you know, [01:22:25] and then she takes the team with her clinically. Um, and then a dental therapist [01:22:30] or a dental hygienist can be the clinical lead as well. But it’s a yin and yang to me. At [01:22:35] the end of the day, I can pretend I’m not a businessman and I can say, you know, do all this charity, [01:22:40] you know, effort. But in reality, I am biased because I’ve got to pay the payroll at the end of the month. And, you know, [01:22:45] that’s the thing we all look forward to and try and make sure that we’ve got enough in the cash in the account for, um, [01:22:50] and so my advice or my decisions are always going to be tainted by money. And [01:22:55] the clinical lead isn’t tainted by money. They’re driven by high standards and evidence based [01:23:00] dentistry. If we just did evidence based dentistry, the turnover like it had in Exeter [01:23:05] and Dartmoor just goes through the roof and they go from seven chairs to ten chairs. It’s [01:23:10] just evidence based dentistry. We’re taught at uni, but I wasn’t tainted by the NHS system. That taints [01:23:15] a lot of.

Payman Langroudi: And I guess I guess treatment planning from first principles as we were taught in uni is [01:23:20] big treatment plans, right?

Mike Hesketh: It’s perio. And so the first thing we do is write a perio protocol I [01:23:25] need to get a periodontist in to train the team again. So it’s all about the perio to begin with, [01:23:30] and then we layer it on filling success rates. Biomimetic Samba Composite course, [01:23:35] which is a course that I’ve done recently, um, doing really good bio bases, [01:23:40] Non-sensitive composites.

Payman Langroudi: Um, to your clinical right now.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. So [01:23:45] I was saying earlier that, um, I sort of fell out of love with it. I don’t think I ever [01:23:50] fell into love with it. I was just too distracted. Yeah. Came back from travelling, started consulting [01:23:55] with Ashley’s team, and then, um, people wanted 1 to 1 advice [01:24:00] and started to build my consultancy firm. And then we bought Dartmoor, and [01:24:05] I started being clinical again. And then my clients started [01:24:10] inspiring me. I thought, it sounds really dramatic, melodramatic, but [01:24:15] if you spend half an hour talking to Amber Aplin about doing composites that last a lifetime and doing [01:24:20] them really well and doing onlays and not doing crowns, you can’t help but get inspired. So I’d be [01:24:25] talking to her about business. Every week on our Thursday call. I talk to everybody on a Thursday morning [01:24:30] for 40 minutes. You know, each each of the individual 1 to 1 clients. And by the end of [01:24:35] it, we’re always talking a little bit about clinical. Same with Gareth and Zach down in smiles [01:24:40] stories. Um, Amy and Stuart up in King’s Lynn or AJ and his wife up [01:24:45] in North Norfolk. Um, you know, Doctor Rhys in Liverpool. Um, [01:24:50] I talked to all of these, Martin and Nick. I just talked to them, and all of a sudden you just can’t help but be [01:24:55] inspired. I don’t think I’ve done enough dentistry. And so the course that I want to do [01:25:00] next year is occlusion, because at mid 40s people want me to do their dentistry [01:25:05] and it’s really lucrative doing dentistry for me personally. I’m [01:25:10] in pyjamas all day. I’m in an air conditioned surgery with patients that I like, with [01:25:15] the nurses that we have a laugh and we enjoy ourselves.

Mike Hesketh: And I think actually this is a [01:25:20] good way to work. So I’m at a crossroads where my [01:25:25] clinical work, I’m getting more and more interested in it, which I never thought I’d say. Um, [01:25:30] I kind of ticked the coaching qualifications from Henley Business [01:25:35] School, the consultancy qualifications, the leadership qualifications. So I’ve kind of in my way [01:25:40] finished the business development of myself. And so it’s the clinical bit [01:25:45] that’s interesting to me now, which is different to a lot of mid 40s dentists. [01:25:50] And then my consultancy um, is I equate it the same to dentistry. [01:25:55] So I make as much from my 1 to 1 consultancy as I do from dentistry. And, [01:26:00] but it’s working with my hands so it uses my time. So it’s what I call like a level [01:26:05] one business. So it requires me to do it both very lucrative and [01:26:10] I don’t know which one to do more of if I’m honest. I’m at a crossroads. And [01:26:15] then obviously level two is sort of buying businesses like local businesses buying. I could buy [01:26:20] a practice closer to home, that would probably be sensible. As well as keeping Dartmoor um [01:26:25] and a level three business is enlighten. So a national brand that’s done [01:26:30] really well got into so many different practices based on high standards. Um, and [01:26:35] that I feel would come from Laura. So Laura would say, okay, actually there’s a niche in [01:26:40] scanners or there’s a niche in something outside of dentistry. Um, [01:26:45] and that’s whether we take that moonshot at the minute or whether we just do [01:26:50] what we’re doing now, which is obviously.

Payman Langroudi: I want to ask you specifically [01:26:55] about two things. Right. Um, but before I forget, I’m going to ask you about another thing. Sorry. [01:27:00] Yeah, I.

Mike Hesketh: Do, I go off on tangents a bit.

Payman Langroudi: So your nurses, [01:27:05] your team leaders and the, the way the thing [01:27:10] runs smoothly. Yeah. What’s the what are some key points to [01:27:15] making that happen in a practice? Because one thing.

Mike Hesketh: As a leader.

Payman Langroudi: As a leader.

Mike Hesketh: Dental Leaders podcast. [01:27:20]

Payman Langroudi: As a Dental leader, because one thing a lot of us are guilty of is sort of micromanaging.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. [01:27:25] So.

Mike Hesketh: Um, I have no interest in micromanaging and taking the emotion out of it. Um, [01:27:30] I think that does come from military training. And the closer you can get to that in business, the better. I’m not saying don’t be [01:27:35] passionate, but, um, we carry a lot of, um, weight with our, um, [01:27:40] forceful views as owners, and we have to be cognisant of that. And some of the junior [01:27:45] staff are very wary to how we say things and look at them. Um, and so the [01:27:50] power that we wield around the business as a captain of the ship is important that we we tread very carefully. [01:27:55] Um, and so I talk in the third party. So I talk [01:28:00] about building Dartmoor Dental. I talk about building extra Dental centre. And [01:28:05] I don’t talk about what Mike wants. Um, I don’t talk about what Laura wants. I talk about what [01:28:10] the business needs. It’s a legal entity, and I’m currently the director of Dartmoor Dental. [01:28:15] So I have a legal responsibility to do it as an entity. So I very much segment [01:28:20] it in my head. So on a practical level, walking around the business, I talk in principles and mantras. [01:28:25] I believe that the ship keeps sailing. Doesn’t matter who’s on board the ship. It comes [01:28:30] back two years later with a different crew in the Navy. So the same with Dartmoor, same with Exeter. It keeps [01:28:35] on growing without me. No one’s bigger than the ship. Okay, I talk [01:28:40] about delivering the patient to a tutor at the end of the treatment plan.

Mike Hesketh: I talk about leveraging every [01:28:45] part of innovation and digital technology in a sensible manner. So not being at the forefront [01:28:50] of software companies that might be here might not be here in a year. So, you [01:28:55] know, being careful because there is 11,000 human beings we’re looking after for their patient care. [01:29:00] Um, I talk about being on time. It’s [01:29:05] a non-negotiable. Um, I talk about, um, cleanliness. We’re [01:29:10] a healthcare provider. And so if we have clutter in the practice, in any of the drawers, then [01:29:15] we can’t keep it clean. So we can’t pretend we’re clean on one side and then have clutter in [01:29:20] a drawer, paperwork and all that. Um, so we do monthly deep [01:29:25] cleans of every surgery. Everything comes out of every surgery, and every surgery is deep cleaned. I [01:29:30] talk about evidence based dentistry. I think people get too into the weeds of their [01:29:35] business and don’t do enough standing back and surveying the horizon. Fundamentally, [01:29:40] my role as a leader is to scan the horizon for opportunities. Speak to the [01:29:45] fantastic clients that I work with. Speak to yourself, speak to, listen to this podcast and [01:29:50] understand some inspiration from out there that maybe the team don’t do. I scan the horizon for opportunities [01:29:55] and where I should be taking the business. And then I have a very good manager who operationally, [01:30:00] um, is the enforcer. And it’s important that you have an enforcer.

Payman Langroudi: So you don’t micromanage [01:30:05] the human, but you do micromanage the SOP. Yeah.

Mike Hesketh: So [01:30:10] so we have a we have a protocol folder for everything. No.

Payman Langroudi: No, [01:30:15] it’s not like that.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. So protocol would be, um. No. So. Yeah. God, that’s my worst nightmare of having [01:30:20] a written instruction of everything. Oh, SOP is standard operating procedures. Yeah. It’s a very [01:30:25] military term. They have a 600 page document for how to run a dental practice. No, not that it’s in the real world. [01:30:30] We’re a small business. We have limited resources. But what we do do is say the patient journey [01:30:35] should look like this.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Mike Hesketh: You know, they should have x, y and z. Um the [01:30:40] support of the building itself, the building maintenance should look along the lines of this, [01:30:45] um, how we deliver certain clinical aspects like composites [01:30:50] or um occlusal rehabilitations, those [01:30:55] sort of things should look like this. And it’s important that people, um, have [01:31:00] a written protocol, but it’s a guideline. It’s not a it’s [01:31:05] people. People fall into rigid things really quickly. Right. Well, I’ll write a protocol on that. [01:31:10] It’s my worst nightmare. You know you want to set almost like a Bible. I call it a Bible, [01:31:15] you know? And you think about the Bible, you know, it’s not dictating you. [01:31:20] You are trying to follow a set of rules.

Payman Langroudi: Basic principles.

Mike Hesketh: Basic principles.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:31:25] believe in God.

Mike Hesketh: Um, yeah, I think I do now.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, we’ll get to that.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, yeah, [01:31:30] I do, I do now. Yeah, yeah, I do now. Yeah. Well, I believe in a higher purpose I [01:31:35] think. Yeah, yeah. Um, but but you’re talking about principles, whether [01:31:40] it’s Quran or whether it’s the Bible, you’re just, you’re trying to set a tone for the team. Um, [01:31:45] and it’s an ethos. And then that is then shared in a brand and [01:31:50] a brand book, and we tell a story for a book.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting. Yeah. Because you are pretty hands on. [01:31:55] That means. Yeah, because, look, I talk to a lot of corporates, right. In our world, corporates are a big [01:32:00] part of our world. And and I asked them that question sometimes if your logo is on top of [01:32:05] this practice, what does that mean from the patient perspective. Yeah. [01:32:10] And and some of them find that a very difficult [01:32:15] question to answer because.

Mike Hesketh: We just do dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Hesketh: But then they’re redefining dentistry, [01:32:20] remember.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Hesketh: That’s a that’s a cynical.

Payman Langroudi: Some of them do very well. Some of them do very well. Yeah. But some [01:32:25] of them do it very badly. Yeah. And and of course. But [01:32:30] listen, by the way. Yeah. You walk into a Louis Vuitton shop. Yeah. In Mumbai or [01:32:35] one in Auckland. You’re going to get this seven star experience in both of [01:32:40] those shops. And that’s a massive call. It’s a much bigger corporate than any of the ones in dentistry. So [01:32:45] it is possible to deliver superb service across a big thing. [01:32:50] More in products than in services. Yeah. But I’d argue walk into a Louis Vuitton [01:32:55] shop is a service.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, it’s an experience.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an experience.

Mike Hesketh: They don’t they don’t really focus enough [01:33:00] on the experience. They focus enough on the product, you know, and when they’re trying to set their fees, um, [01:33:05] practice owners, they, they go well either compare to locally or to see what they [01:33:10] think they can they can push to.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your advice on that?

Mike Hesketh: Setting fees I mean, [01:33:15] looking at someone’s fee guide on a on a practice is like looking into their soul.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Mike Hesketh: Yeah [01:33:20] yeah, yeah. It shows me. It shows me where they’re confident, where they’re not confident. So [01:33:25] if they.

Payman Langroudi: Solid example of that.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. Well if for instance, if they, if they write it like an. [01:33:30] So treatment plan and expect a patient to understand the fee guide I’ll [01:33:35] say that they’re cluttered and they’re trying to um.

Payman Langroudi: They’re not looking at the business from the patient’s perspective.

Mike Hesketh: They’re not they’re not confident, you [01:33:40] know. And then there’s some areas where they’ll go into town on maybe the cosmetics, or they’ll go into town on the different [01:33:45] types of dentures or something. And you’ll see that’s where they’re really confident, and then they’ll just have one little fee for something. I [01:33:50] also think there’s a clarity. There’s not a clarity of thought. So there should be one fee for root canal. For [01:33:55] every root canal should just be one fee because it’s all the same value. Um, [01:34:00] yes, I know some take different times, but it doesn’t matter who delivers it in the practice, whether [01:34:05] they’ve got an MSC or whether it’s an associate. The patient is getting a root canal from Dartmoor Dental. [01:34:10] So it needs to be a certain price and it needs to have a certain audited success rate. [01:34:15] And so the fee is this it’s not an associate fee and an MSC fee and a specialist visiting specialist [01:34:20] fee. It’s just one fee. So if you look at our website, it’s one fee and it’s a front two for a back tooth because [01:34:25] the patient values the front tooth more than the back tooth. Sometimes that’s a generalism, [01:34:30] but they will very much value their front teeth hopefully. Um, and so [01:34:35] the fee should be one fee. So it’s a very clear clarity of thought. And if someone’s done that I know that they’ve really thought about [01:34:40] their proposition, their positioning, and they’ve worked really hard at it. But if you look at most practices, they’ve got fees all over [01:34:45] the shop for root canal, premolar, molar incisor, two stage, one stage. They [01:34:50] don’t know what they’re offering. They’re not they’re not thinking about the output. They’re thinking [01:34:55] about what it means to them, not to the patient.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. Um, that’s [01:35:00] a that’s an example.

Payman Langroudi: And what about positioning itself? I mean, would you tell Uh, someone who [01:35:05] wants to open a squad.

Mike Hesketh: To shortcut on positioning.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Hesketh: 40 year old [01:35:10] female in Western society. That’s a shortcut. So the reason why is [01:35:15] the 40 year old female in Western society is a decision maker for one one across, one down. And [01:35:20] so they will make a decision for their parents, make a decision for their partner and make a decision [01:35:25] for children. And that’s backed up by academic research that I did on my [01:35:30] MBA out of the United States of America. So they so if you want a shortcut in UK dentistry, [01:35:35] target a 40 year old female. What they like and a lot of the 40 year old female owners [01:35:40] basically just need to target themselves and their friends. That’s a shortcut. That’s an [01:35:45] easy one. On positioning. I would say that Exeter did that in the city centre and [01:35:50] also Dartmoor in a little town also does that, I think. Well, how’s [01:35:55] that work? Well. What does a 40 year old female in Little Town want? Versus what does a 40 year old female [01:36:00] in a city centre want. Different stages or different feelings about their life. [01:36:05] But usually it’s a higher standard than most people are willing to go to. It’s [01:36:10] a higher standard of cleanliness and, um, care [01:36:15] for children than people deliver. And empathy for children. It’s [01:36:20] a higher standard of, um, flexibility and, um, [01:36:25] ability to book appointments for their partner. And it’s a higher standard of, um, decor [01:36:30] and feeling and the senses, the smell, the sight, the the feel [01:36:35] than what most people are willing to work to. And so basically, [01:36:40] Lara, you know, my you know, my.

Payman Langroudi: Wife does that then follow a higher price as well.

Mike Hesketh: It ordinarily [01:36:45] as you raise raise standards and the experience using your Louis Vuitton um description. [01:36:50] If you if you do a bigger experience you charge more. And [01:36:55] so what happens is we have no real ceiling to our fees.

Payman Langroudi: And so was Dental [01:37:00] the most expensive practice in Exeter, and.

Mike Hesketh: We tried to push it 25% above the market. Um, [01:37:05] I mean, I’m sure there’s other sort of smaller practices that charge more for the [01:37:10] specialist skills of a single chair practice owner.

Payman Langroudi: But I find it really funny [01:37:15] that people commoditize in the sense I don’t buy commodities. I don’t mean drive prices down. [01:37:20] I mean that people think there’s a direct relationship between price and volume in a, [01:37:25] in a service like dentistry.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. You’re right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. And people really believe that. You know, people believe if [01:37:30] I increase the price of my whitening, if I double the price of my whitening, I’ll do half as much. Or if I half the price, I’ll [01:37:35] do double as much. And it’s never like that.

Mike Hesketh: Not at all. Yeah. No, it never is.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s [01:37:40] not a direct relationship like it’s not. It’s not a commodity. It’s it’s something much more complex than that.

Mike Hesketh: It [01:37:45] is. And if you think about the risks that we take, both medical legally and for the patient, you’re essentially, [01:37:50] um, grievous bodily harm on a patient every 30 minutes if you’re doing a filling or and so, you [01:37:55] know, that’s a reasonably stressful job for people. And if you’re only going to charge £120 [01:38:00] for a filling as opposed to, you know, another commodity that you can [01:38:05] buy on the high street, be it whatever you are charging too little. Most of the UK dentistry [01:38:10] doesn’t charge enough for the level of risk that they take and the care that they take, but that’s [01:38:15] because the culture is based around the low fee NHS model. Yeah, [01:38:20] and I saw that the Chancellor had just announced a Competition and Markets [01:38:25] Authority investigation into private fees in UK dentistry. Yeah. Well say you set [01:38:30] that fee at a low level. You’ll go the way as Holland. In Holland they have a set fee [01:38:35] by the government and all the practices are struggling to make a profit. And they have to use [01:38:40] dental nurses to do fillings. And and they run three dentists run three chairs at once and they can’t make a profit. [01:38:45] I mean, the macroeconomic, um, deficit of, [01:38:50] of being involved in setting fees for private dentistry is just a disaster because essentially [01:38:55] you’re just going to have the UK reputation of poor teeth because of the NHS again, but you’re just going to [01:39:00] do it on a private level, and people aren’t going to be able to afford to use the itero scanners.

Mike Hesketh: The [01:39:05] enlightened, the, uh, to do the better quality kit and equipment and [01:39:10] service that people want to do is, you know, 99% of clinicians [01:39:15] want to do really high standard dentistry. They don’t want to, um, you know, put poor [01:39:20] quality fillings in. But the NHS system has always driven over decades, putting [01:39:25] poor quality work in and doing it quickly. I know that there are NHS dentists that don’t work [01:39:30] like that, but essentially it’s really hard to keep up with compliance if you don’t earn enough money. So [01:39:35] if they were to limit the private fee level. So if you think about that in reverse, there isn’t really a limit [01:39:40] to what you can charge privately if you get the experience right through the business. And [01:39:45] so it’s this whirlwind of an experience within the practice that we try and generate.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:39:50]

Payman Langroudi: I want to talk about your consulting clients. Some of my favourite [01:39:55] conversation I’ve had so far was with Zack.

Mike Hesketh: Oh, Zack and Gareth in Smile stories.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t want to [01:40:00] get Gareth on just to be more exposed to those guys. Um, but but what [01:40:05] I’m really interested in is. And we had Amber on. She hasn’t. We haven’t put that one out yet. Amber. [01:40:10] Okay. But but the. And I’ve had Nick and Nick and Martin as well. [01:40:15] Um, what I’m really interested in is when someone comes to you as [01:40:20] a consulting client, are their problems [01:40:25] very similar, or are they each very different? Because I know every practice [01:40:30] is very different. Having been to lots of practices, it’s very clear every practice is very different. [01:40:35] Yeah, but but the blind spots that people have that you can point out, like what [01:40:40] are the common things that people miss?

Mike Hesketh: No, I don’t think all practices [01:40:45] are the same, to be honest with you, with the, um, consultancy, I think that’s where you [01:40:50] go into coaching as well as when I did the Henley Business School coaching qualification. It was. [01:40:55] I felt like it was a hole in my armoury. So obviously consulting, I can tell people the right answer because [01:41:00] I live and breathe it. I walk the walk myself with my own practices. We have the growth that we’ve talked about, [01:41:05] but every practice that I work with has a different brand, a different positioning, [01:41:10] a different team, a different situation, different resources. And so a lot of the time I need [01:41:15] people to find their own answer, which is what coaching is. And that’s a top tip as well. To be a leader, become [01:41:20] a coach as a model called the growth model from John Whitmore. And [01:41:25] if you read about that, it’s one of sort of ten coaching tools that you can use, and [01:41:30] you can play with it in conversations with your team to get good at it. But when I’m having conversations with [01:41:35] clients on a Thursday morning, I often will slip into the growth model. What the goal is, what the reality [01:41:40] is, what the options and what will they do to get them to commit to something. And so [01:41:45] now when I’m working with clients on a 1 to 1 basis, like the clients that you talked about who [01:41:50] are fantastic in their own right, I divide it into four pillars. So leadership, [01:41:55] infrastructure, branding and financial command and control.

Mike Hesketh: And I [01:42:00] think that if they get that those four pillars sort of singing in their practice is 80% [01:42:05] of the way there. And obviously leadership I’ve got okay weighed off got lots of [01:42:10] qualifications in it through the military and through Cranfield University, all sorts of different places. [01:42:15] The branding is where I struggled with the most as I came out of the military, because [01:42:20] that’s where I leaned on Lara. But now I understand it a lot better and the infrastructure is [01:42:25] what I live and breathe, the physical and the digital infrastructure. So checkpoints, the flow through the business [01:42:30] and then the financial command and control. It wasn’t out there, so I had to build our own accountancy [01:42:35] to make that work. And so when I’m auditing clients in my head as I’m talking [01:42:40] to them each week, I’m looking at those four pillars thinking, okay, which are the hundred spinning plates that are [01:42:45] divided into those four pillars. Do they need to be working on at that time? And the answer [01:42:50] is usually what will increase turnover. So what thing will increase turnover. And [01:42:55] now turnover is vanity. But we do this one document called cash flow forecasting. So I [01:43:00] know how much money is going to be in Dartmouth’s account in a year’s time. I know that because most [01:43:05] things in dentistry aren’t reinventing the wheel. Like I said earlier. So clients [01:43:10] need a lot of, um, structure, I feel, in the consultancy and coaching. But [01:43:15] I’m happy that in my armoury, I’ve been formally qualified and taught [01:43:20] from recognised universities in this.

Mike Hesketh: And I think that’s important. I think just because [01:43:25] you’ve been in the game for 10 or 20 years doesn’t make you a consultant. Um, because you have to take people [01:43:30] with you on the journey, which I think is what you’re alluding to with with these owners of practices, [01:43:35] they struggle, um, to be told what the answer is. And maybe that’s why when we [01:43:40] both started out and helping people that only you can think of, a [01:43:45] handful of people have just done what we’ve said. So you go, well, is that them or us? It’s [01:43:50] probably us. Yeah, yeah. In our consultancy world. And you go, well, how can I coach them? How can I get them to find [01:43:55] their answer? And in a way, that’s the harder challenge. Yeah. I can tell someone how to grow a dental practice really [01:44:00] quickly. It’s fine. Um, I find it quite, um, you know, enjoyable, but [01:44:05] really, the coaching is is the real joy. And say, Amber Aplin at the moment. [01:44:10] Um, she won um, practice of the year in the North on Friday. [01:44:15] And considering where we were 18 months, two years ago and confidence [01:44:20] levels, um, the clinical excellence was always there. It just needed bringing out. It [01:44:25] just needed showing. And I said, well, most clients are too quiet about how good they [01:44:30] are. I’ve got a client who does a lot of choice, spending tens of thousands [01:44:35] on courses in in Seattle and America doesn’t tell anyone.

[TRANSITION]: Um. [01:44:40]

Mike Hesketh: But if I wanted a full mouth rehabilitation based on good occlusal principles, I’d probably [01:44:45] go see my client in North London. You know, they’re amazing. They’re [01:44:50] fantastic clinicians, but they don’t tell anyone. And so a lot of the time is trying to bring out that inner [01:44:55] confidence, um, and make them realise how good they are at, um, at [01:45:00] dentistry. Um, a lot of them have got a bit of I work with practices, you know, we’ve had some [01:45:05] resources behind them because I work on a 1 to 1 bespoke basis. So it takes [01:45:10] up time. So it’s relatively expensive, but hopefully they get value for it. It’s 12 months contract. [01:45:15]

Payman Langroudi: Do you mind me asking how much it costs?

Mike Hesketh: No, it’s, uh, 3300 a month plus [01:45:20] that 1 to 1. Um, and it’s a set, 12 month contract, and [01:45:25] I’m not a gym membership, so I won’t be there after 12 months. Um, that we can just carry [01:45:30] on rolling that on. They can message me, and then we always. I become friends with the owners.

Payman Langroudi: 2300. [01:45:35] How much is that a year? 40.

Mike Hesketh: So it’s about I think it’s just shy of 50 grand investment. [01:45:40] And they only work with three practices at any one time. So I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Three. [01:45:45] Only three?

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, I started at ten. Um, I was at ten. [01:45:50] And whilst trying to build Dartmoor and become a better clinician and actually try and be a father [01:45:55] and do all, everything else, it was too much. So I’ve rapidly, um, as patient [01:46:00] as clients have dropped off, I’ve just created a waiting list and I just [01:46:05] say to clients, look, I’m full for 2026, but, um, you can [01:46:10] always message me and I’ll always talk to you, and things happen. You know, people do drop off [01:46:15] eventually, and then I’m ready then for another client. But what I try and get clients [01:46:20] to do is grow £500,000 per year. Um, so that’s painful. And that requires [01:46:25] a lot of intense effort from me and my team.

Payman Langroudi: Based on the 20% number, [01:46:30] though, that means they have to increase their turnover by 250,000. [01:46:35]

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, we aim for 500.

Payman Langroudi: To pay you.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:46:40] then the other 250,000 is. This. Yeah. Gravy.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. And [01:46:45] also that’s another.

Payman Langroudi: I guess what they’re paying you that’s going to last them a lifetime.

Mike Hesketh: Well that’s another it’s 500 [01:46:50] grand every every year isn’t it. Yeah. Um, yeah. And it’s just to have the same rapid [01:46:55] growth that we have in our practices. And because we do it ourselves, we know what we’re doing. And it’s quite easy [01:47:00] for me to see through a lot of systems within practices. Now, I’ve seen so many. I’ve worked with [01:47:05] 50 practices on a 1 to 1 basis throughout the country. And, you [01:47:10] know, they um, I think that I’m better at selecting clients [01:47:15] now that will go with. Yeah, yeah. That will I think [01:47:20] that’s something over the 5 or 6 years that I’ve been doing it that I’ve got better at and said, actually, [01:47:25] I’m not sure they’re in the the right state to listen. I think they might want to be, you know, [01:47:30] more antagonistic with the advice. And, and I turn more clients [01:47:35] down than I take on.

Payman Langroudi: You not ever minded to talk to a private equity [01:47:40] guy and make your own little mini corporate.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. Um, [01:47:45] I wrote a dissertation on it on the MBA. Um, obviously, we we have a certain [01:47:50] system that works in growing rapid practices. Um, it might be the next [01:47:55] stage. I said earlier, I’m at a crossroads between consulting, clinical buying [01:48:00] a practice, I think, by, um, doing a corporate or building a group, [01:48:05] um, is not without its energy drain. And. [01:48:10] Yeah. And so you have to be certain that you want to do that. And we’ve met some really lovely people [01:48:15] that have built corporates and, you know, independent corporates sort of ten, 20, 30 [01:48:20] practices. And and they have that energy to do it. And so it’s just I just need to be careful [01:48:25] with what I do next that I want I really want to do it as a purpose. And maybe [01:48:30] um, that might be an option. I get offered practices all the time to buy, um, good [01:48:35] practices as well. Nice ones. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I think the model that might work really well is you’ve got an attendant [01:48:40] is working in this practice as they want to go and open their own [01:48:45] practices. They open corporate satellites. You know, [01:48:50] maybe the Dev Patel model, the 5149 model.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. But yeah, there [01:48:55] is um, there is a corporate like that in the southwest already. Um, and they do very well with it. They’re [01:49:00] up to 7 or 8. They’re my friends. Um, and then they have a structure where the owner owns [01:49:05] part of it. You’re right. Um, and I think these are innovative ownership structures. I’m just not [01:49:10] sure that they deliver dentistry as differently to each other. You know, when you come to the [01:49:15] face of it. And, um, I think that ownership of practices, [01:49:20] um, is something that is an option for us. And [01:49:25] we could do it. I always thought we’d do three practices and try and make ten get to 10 million turnover, [01:49:30] but that’s like such an arbitrary number. What’s the point? You know, you go, well, I [01:49:35] can pretty.

Payman Langroudi: Much your financial planner said, oh, if you do that then you can retire.

Mike Hesketh: And I could retire [01:49:40] now. So, you know, I could sell and retire now. You know, I’m 44, but, um, so [01:49:45] it’s more of what’s the purpose? And my wife is all about purpose, and I don’t think [01:49:50] she’d let me just buy something like Exeter again just for the sake of buying it. Um, [01:49:55] and in a way, we wanted to do Dartmoor an hour away from [01:50:00] us, um, in a harder location. Um, just [01:50:05] to prove that the first time wasn’t a fluke. Um, and it and hope, you know, luckily and [01:50:10] with a, you know, a bit of grace, we’ve, we’ve managed to have a success of that, um, of the second [01:50:15] one. But if you think about, you know, we’ve built a house, um, we [01:50:20] built an architectural house. Um, so we have that.

Payman Langroudi: What, like a grand design? [01:50:25]

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, yeah. Lovely. So when we came back from, um, uh, travelling with the bungalow [01:50:30] opposite was for sale on the river on the River exe. So we, uh, we bought the bungalow and knocked [01:50:35] it down and built a big, um, you know, architectural house. So, um, [01:50:40] overlooking the river. So we’ve got that, um, I think as a want really, I think [01:50:45] as a want. And at the moment, I really enjoy the private dentistry awards on Friday night, [01:50:50] bumping into so many people that we both know and enjoying ourselves and, [01:50:55] um, having a lot of joy from my accountancy firm, [01:51:00] my consultancy firm from Dartmoor itself. Um, I [01:51:05] suppose I should.

Payman Langroudi: If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, yeah, there is that. And I quite like the [01:51:10] diversity of the week. I don’t work a Wednesday, so I go and watch my children do sport on a Wednesday afternoon. And [01:51:15] so I have a little mini weekend in the middle of the week. And I’m clinical Monday, Friday. And then [01:51:20] I do my consultancy on a Tuesday Thursday. So Tuesday I go and see them, um, if I have to see them. [01:51:25] And then on a Tuesday, on a Thursday doing my zooms, and then I follow up in the afternoon with anything written [01:51:30] that I need to write for them. Um, so yeah. 5050 between Dartmoor and the [01:51:35] consultancy. But it’s got to the point where I don’t need to be clinical at Dartmoor and financially, [01:51:40] you know, especially put the ninth chair in this week. So yeah, [01:51:45] it’s um.

Payman Langroudi: Is your advice to your consulting clients to do less dentistry? [01:51:50]

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. It used to be, um, now I call it ration as [01:51:55] again, military term rations, um, rationing dentistry because obviously [01:52:00] I’ve gone the other way. Now I’ve become enlightened. Um, I’ve ended up doing more dentistry. [01:52:05] So I used to say, oh, you know, if you want an associate led practice, you need to do this, that and the other and you can do. But [01:52:10] I would find it quite odd not being a clinician now, um, because I’ve [01:52:15] booked on Ambers, uh, second course, which is coming up in the, in the spring, I want [01:52:20] to go and do an occlusion course. So I’m open to suggestions on occlusion, like how to really understand it. [01:52:25] I think it’s a real gap in my armoury of clinician clinical work. I want to be able to do [01:52:30] a full mouth rehab. Um, and so, yeah, these are the [01:52:35] things that I want to be doing. And I’ve been looking at Tipton’s courses, um, and I know that there’s people [01:52:40] around the country who do really great occlusion work. Um, yeah. [01:52:45] So we’ve got the options of doing lots of different, different bits. I’m at a crossroads, [01:52:50] really. Um, which is a nice place to be, because 18 months ago, Dartmoor wasn’t easy. [01:52:55] Um, it was full on. It was on a calf strain. But because we, [01:53:00] um, do a cash flow forecast, we know we knew it would be fine, but we [01:53:05] were investing so much and we put £1 million into the place already. But we’re actually a month ago [01:53:10] we’ve refinanced it. So yeah, we’ve managed to refinance it and borrowed another 500 grand on top. [01:53:15] Well, so the idea is, is that we keep that going as a business, a ten chair [01:53:20] that, um, is stable, growing it, driving the standards higher still. [01:53:25] Um, to keep up with some of the consulting clients that I do. Um, [01:53:30] yeah, that I work with.

Payman Langroudi: What’s what’s been the darkest day? I don’t mean military, [01:53:35] but.

Mike Hesketh: Not in the military.

Payman Langroudi: Dental.

Mike Hesketh: I think it’s pretty dark in the military. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. [01:53:40] Um, but relatively relatable for people. Um, I [01:53:45] think before I bought Exeter, I think I came off the back of that [01:53:50] coaching meeting with eight people in the room and hearing the negativity who are more experienced than [01:53:55] me. I remember going out in the middle of the night and doing, uh, push [01:54:00] ups and runs like at midnight and just going, oh, [01:54:05] and, you know, this is really hard work. And I’ve always felt like physical exercise, always, [01:54:10] you know, endorphins. And it makes you feel good. Um, and so, but I’m a [01:54:15] bit allergic to physical exercise, so I have to force myself to do it. Um, so, yeah, I, [01:54:20] uh, I had to go for a run. I would say, you know, that was probably the closest. That was in [01:54:25] 2013. That was the most difficult time. Um, but since [01:54:30] then, I mean, it was fine. Within a few days, it was all right, but it was just like, wow, gosh, [01:54:35] there’s so much pressure. But I suppose your capacity expands as a person to [01:54:40] deal with complexity. Yeah. Um, I mean, Dartmoor, when we bought it, um, I made [01:54:45] some wrong turns at the beginning, and I had, um, um, an [01:54:50] established team, um, from Exeter that, [01:54:55] um, the manager that had brought down was good in a smooth [01:55:00] sea, um, but wasn’t good in a rocky sea.

Mike Hesketh: The manager from Exeter bought. [01:55:05] I bought in right at the end, after everything was done by the team. And then all of a sudden [01:55:10] they started with Dartmoor and they couldn’t do the build phase. They didn’t know what they were doing, they didn’t know how to practice, [01:55:15] manage essentially because I didn’t realise it. But Exeter had a team of 50 people and they did everything [01:55:20] for this manager and they walked, you know, they talked the talk but didn’t walk the walk and [01:55:25] that was kind of known around Exeter. Um, but unfortunately, this this manager [01:55:30] was um, at, uh, um, say, you know, are you are you on [01:55:35] board with this or not? And she self-selected to leave. And then I brought in the actual [01:55:40] team from Exeter who did do it, the sort of, you know, the, the real quality, [01:55:45] um, people who had the ethos of the business and then they came in.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:55:50] lost all those people.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. Eventually. Eventually, I mean, years later, you know, [01:55:55] years, years and years later, five years later. But yeah, then I brought in the quality sort of the [01:56:00] front of house lead. And, and the practice manager at Exeter was a lady called Corina. [01:56:05] And then she came down and stayed, steadied the ship and she is good. She was the first employee [01:56:10] we had in Exeter. I just didn’t realise how much she did in Exeter towards the end and she was the actual driving force [01:56:15] of the business and she came down to Dartmoor and she did all of the, um, sort of leading of the team for us. [01:56:20] Um, and then, um.

Payman Langroudi: Do you recommend to incentivise the [01:56:25] team.

Mike Hesketh: Um, we do one incentivization. So we do one key [01:56:30] performance indicator. Everyone overcomplicates this because it’s dentists. So you’re only allowed to do one key performance indicator. [01:56:35] So if you want to embed a culture within your business say Google reviews, um, how many whitening starts [01:56:40] you do you incentivise the whole business around that one key performance indicator. And [01:56:45] so, um, everyone needs to know on a daily basis where they’re at, and it’s a monthly target. [01:56:50] And so what we do then is either do them a lunch, a warm lunch, because we gamify it, um, [01:56:55] and we talk about it in the morning huddles and um, or we used to give £50 [01:57:00] a month to every staff member, but it didn’t matter whether you were the decomp person or you were the front of [01:57:05] house and you were in charge of selling memberships, whatever the target was, whatever you wanted to embed in [01:57:10] your business. So Google reviews for Exeter. We sold it when it had about 150, 160. [01:57:15] It’s now got 500. Now, I’m not sure Google are very good at getting Google reviews. There [01:57:20] was a culture embedded into the business at Dartmouth has gone from zero to over [01:57:25] 400 quickly by embedding a key performance indicator.

Payman Langroudi: So would you change it every [01:57:30] quarter or so?

Mike Hesketh: We change it every 6 to 9 months. We embed the culture, then [01:57:35] we’ll change it. But there is a there’s a good ideas club in UK dentistry consulting. [01:57:40] Where.

Payman Langroudi: What do you mean.

Mike Hesketh: You’re paying me. So I’m going to give you a spreadsheet to do. It’s [01:57:45] too much data. Yeah. Um, owning a small business, I know how much resources [01:57:50] I’ve got in my own head. I know how much resources operationally my team have. And [01:57:55] so I think a lot of consultants justify their existence by giving spreadsheets to people to fill [01:58:00] out. And they just layer on, layer on, layer on spreadsheets and key performance indicators. [01:58:05] So often when I come into practices that have been coached or consulted [01:58:10] with in the past, I have to delete most of it. And I have to say, right. Simplify, simplify simplify. [01:58:15] And we want to embed a culture. And so I spend most of my time deleting stuff to be honest with you, in [01:58:20] practices that are over overcoached. But that old adage you can’t manage what [01:58:25] you don’t measure. It also works in the other way. You can’t measure everything you’re trying to manage. And you, you. I [01:58:30] just say to people, measure what you can have influence over, measure [01:58:35] what you really can have an effect on the business. Stop measuring everything just because [01:58:40] you can, because the dashboard. And if you have to fill out spreadsheets, make it like [01:58:45] an automated dashboard and make it automated. Especially now with AI and [01:58:50] all the back end stuff. You don’t never fill out a spreadsheet. You know, if it can’t be automated, [01:58:55] don’t bother.

Payman Langroudi: But the kind of KPIs that you do focus on from the management perspective. [01:59:00]

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. So financially we go by the Nasdaq. So we do quarter. The [01:59:05] quarterly management accounts are important for the banks. Yeah. And they benchmark you [01:59:10] and you do what’s called exception reporting right. So you look at things that just outline. So you don’t discuss [01:59:15] things that are in in the realms of normality. You either something that’s going really well or something [01:59:20] that’s going really poorly. And you look at that as a financial, so you can look at the percentage of your turnover of [01:59:25] the wage cost, for instance. But even that’s difficult nowadays with the advent of therapists, especially if [01:59:30] they’re employed, and we actually have an employed dentist. So and which I think are the way the market is going [01:59:35] anyway, because we create this playing field where they can excel. I don’t know why we would make keep someone [01:59:40] associate self employed. So that might be a change that’s coming in the future. It [01:59:45] might not be. So yeah we use financial benchmarking and then we have a [01:59:50] great front of house lead at the moment in Dartmoor called Rob. And Rob’s come from a [01:59:55] different backgrounds and one of them was corporate, and he has a load of data and spreadsheets that he is [02:00:00] sort of well-versed on doing. And so it’s unpicking a bit of that, but [02:00:05] also recognising the value of what Rob is the front of house. He focuses on his [02:00:10] own key performance indicator of occupancy. And actually that’s really valuable for the business. [02:00:15] But the whole team don’t know about it. But he and I discuss it, and what I try [02:00:20] and do is I fit the business into a cadence, a rhythm.

Mike Hesketh: And so he and I will. He and I will have a [02:00:25] vent point every two weeks. Sorry. Every month where it’s a board meeting sounds [02:00:30] a bit grand, but myself and the key lieutenants in the practice, um, the heads [02:00:35] of the departments, will then sit down and we will make the decisions, and they’ll each sort of talk [02:00:40] about where their departments at, and then we’ll in front of each other and I’ll spend 1 to 1 time with them. [02:00:45] So it’s a whole day every every month. And I’ll just basically try and support them and help them and give them [02:00:50] more resources towards what their challenges are. Um, and so he we talk about occupancy [02:00:55] and customer service. And then for someone else, it might be compliance for their, um, [02:01:00] uh, practice administrator or building maintenance for them. Practice manager. It might be HR, [02:01:05] um, issues that we have with that job descriptions, training agreements. Um, [02:01:10] but yeah, it’s um, it’s important that you fit the business into a rhythm, [02:01:15] a cadence. So it all moves forward together quickly. Um, but there’s also a vent [02:01:20] point. So they meet on a fortnightly basis to vent any issues. [02:01:25] And what by having a rhythm to the practice, you end up with a business [02:01:30] that has, um, a place where the nurses know that if they tell their team leader, [02:01:35] it will be discussed with the other people if there’s a problem within what’s happening. I also think it’s [02:01:40] important, as the owners, that we’re not in those meetings.

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Mike Hesketh: Because there’s a lot of things that [02:01:45] the team don’t really want us to know.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it.

Mike Hesketh: Comes back to that as wielding, you know, too much power. [02:01:50] And so they don’t really want us to know everything about themselves. And they want the problem solved on a local [02:01:55] level, which is fine. I don’t need to know everything. I need just need to know the safety stuff. [02:02:00] And I need to know, um, you know, the really high performance stuff, you know, um, [02:02:05] and we try and create a safe environment for the, um, for the team. So that [02:02:10] work is a good place, a good part of their life. And that’s very important to me. So [02:02:15] yeah, the rhythm of meetings, clinicians, meetings on a quarterly basis, [02:02:20] the annual appraisals happen every year. I always find it odd in the military where you get given [02:02:25] the rank and you don’t do your one job, which is to report on the 30 people that are underneath you. And [02:02:30] your job is to do that. So we make sure that we do annual appraisals and training [02:02:35] plans for everybody and everyone on a course at any one time. The [02:02:40] standards with all the four pillars that I talk about, um, I try and push everyone into. [02:02:45]

Payman Langroudi: Very impressive, man. And you know, what’s more impressive is like your humility around it. If you haven’t [02:02:50] got the hubris that you would expect for someone who’s done what you’ve done, let’s face it, quite a young [02:02:55] age. Yeah.

Mike Hesketh: Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: How old are you?

Mike Hesketh: I’m 44 now. Um, I was 35 [02:03:00] when we sold Exeter. 30 when I left 35. Yeah. So it was [02:03:05] like winning the lottery? Yeah, it was cool. Um, but. Yeah. So, I mean, I’ll talk [02:03:10] to my wife yesterday, actually, we were talking about sort the next phase because our children are 13 and 11 [02:03:15] now. And so there’ll be a stage where they’ll be leaving school. And what do we do after that? Do [02:03:20] we stay in the West Country? Do we, you know, what do we do?

Payman Langroudi: Follow the sun again.

Mike Hesketh: Follow the sun again. Yeah. [02:03:25] And, um, but I think we we like the excitement. We like the buzz of London. Um, [02:03:30] we like, um, sort of business opportunities. Um, I [02:03:35] don’t worry about them anymore. Um, because obviously we’ve had an exit already. We’ll [02:03:40] probably have another exit within ten years with Dartmoor, but everyone knows that. Um, and [02:03:45] so, um, yeah, we’ll keep Dartmoor until the children at least finish school. [02:03:50] Um, and then, like you say, there might be just an opportunity too good to [02:03:55] not buy another practice because. Because Tottenham was bleeding cash. So, you know, it might be the [02:04:00] point in a year where we go. Right. Well, we should actually buy something near as it makes, you know, it’s an opportunity [02:04:05] that someone’s come to me with.

Payman Langroudi: You know what the worst thing about being a dentist? Now I, [02:04:10] think crystallise this for you when you stop. The best thing about [02:04:15] being a dentist and the worst thing for me. The best thing. The human connections, you [02:04:20] know, wonderful thing. And you miss it when you don’t have it. Yeah. The worst thing about being a dentist is [02:04:25] literally turning up, having to turn up. Um, it sounds strange [02:04:30] to say it, but.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, I know what you mean. You’re constrained by eight hours in the same place.

Payman Langroudi: By the building. [02:04:35] Almost.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, yeah. So you’ve got to be there.

Payman Langroudi: If I were you, I would look at sell that [02:04:40] one eventually or sell whatever practices you’ve got. By the time the kids are 18, 21, [02:04:45] whatever it is. Yeah, but the consulting business really pushed that into remote. Yeah. [02:04:50] And then literally follow the sun and continue with the with the consulting. Consulting.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. That, [02:04:55] that.

Payman Langroudi: Because that is something you could do from New Zealand. Well New Zealand is a bit difficult, but someone from something you could [02:05:00] do from South Africa. Yeah. For the sake of the.

Mike Hesketh: Argument, I never thought that we’d build businesses in proper business, [02:05:05] you know, and I don’t say that like dentistry is proper business, but where the barriers to entry are so low [02:05:10] that anyone can be a consultant. And I think, I think there is a market for high standard consultancy. [02:05:15] When I see what people offer out there and try and advise, and the fact that I go into practice [02:05:20] is and undo most of it, um, and try and, you know, especially with the numbers and things.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [02:05:25] when you sold Exeter, you got to pay out and [02:05:30] you didn’t have to stay at all.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. It was a walk away deal. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So did you do you think you got less because [02:05:35] of that?

Mike Hesketh: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or you didn’t care? You wanted to walk away?

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. No, it was a purpose. Um, [02:05:40] I mean, it was six times, so that’s an okay EBITDA. Um, yeah. [02:05:45] So we just, um, the walk away was, [02:05:50] um. I think if you heard a bhatner. No, um, [02:05:55] it’s a term for negotiation. Um, we did we did a module on it on the MBA, which is best alternative [02:06:00] to a negotiated agreement. How do you walk away from the table and keep what you’ve got? [02:06:05] So the best alternative was just keeping the practice, making 500 grand a year, not having any [02:06:10] influence on it really, other than the full morning huddles. But the problem is, as you know, there is a noise [02:06:15] in the back of our head as entrepreneurs of business owners that have to think about our [02:06:20] businesses a lot. And even if I said that I wasn’t clinical and [02:06:25] I said that I wasn’t running the business, my house was still on the line. And, [02:06:30] you know, the before, it would have an opportunity to to fall down if I [02:06:35] wasn’t, um, influencing it possibly. I don’t know, after a year or two, you might [02:06:40] start going downhill. Losing the associates loses its feel. And so it [02:06:45] wasn’t really an option just to keep it and then go travelling for a year. Um, [02:06:50] the aim was to to have a break sort of midlife and have the best year of my [02:06:55] life. And I mean, everyone talks about this, but then hardly anyone does it. Yeah, yeah. So [02:07:00] so we just did it. And it’s the same as like building your own house. You just did it and [02:07:05] buying a business just did it. And doing the commando thing and just trying to achieve stuff, you know. And [02:07:10] then the next thing, there’ll always be business opportunities. You know, now that we’re wiser and [02:07:15] connected as well network with I find my network as well is just lovely [02:07:20] people like and genuinely I just, you know, I meet with really caring individuals [02:07:25] all the time that want to build family wealth and time wealth for themselves. And [02:07:30] we’ve mentioned a few names either here or before, and they’re just all lovely people. [02:07:35] Um, and so.

Payman Langroudi: I think we’re very lucky in dentistry, you know, in, in that sense. [02:07:40] Yeah. It’s a very friendly community. Yeah. A small enough that you can [02:07:45] know loads of people. Yeah. And then as a business, I mean, I [02:07:50] don’t want to be reductive about it, but I’ve been to maybe a thousand practices. [02:07:55] Right? And I’ve met all sorts of people. Very alpha people. Yeah. [02:08:00] Totally beta. Whatever. Is that a thing?

[BOTH]: Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah, yeah. [02:08:05]

Payman Langroudi: Totally different types of people. Um, running successful businesses [02:08:10] by. You know, I know it’s much more complicated than this, but being good [02:08:15] to your patients, being good to your staff, it’s almost.

Mike Hesketh: Go a long way.

[BOTH]: From. [02:08:20]

Payman Langroudi: That’s that’s a simple thing.

Mike Hesketh: There is that. But but also you can [02:08:25] dope your business. You can financially dope your business by being a clinician. You can put half £1 million turnover [02:08:30] across your business, which solves a lot of business issues that say, you know, you’ve got a product business, [02:08:35] how you describe it, really. But, um, you’ve got a business where you can’t, you know, dope your [02:08:40] business. So it’s built on different principles. And, um, [02:08:45] I think you’re right, being nice and kind and gentle, it gets you so [02:08:50] far. But a lot of the time it comes at the cost of time. And people that contact me [02:08:55] have one and a half, £2 million businesses that unfortunately are [02:09:00] enveloping their time and they go, well, how do you go have a Wednesday off [02:09:05] every week? And and you run 4 or 5 businesses. So I take them through those principles. [02:09:10] And I only work with the old New Zealand no [02:09:15] dickheads thing. I kind of do. Um, the thing about [02:09:20] the Royal Marine Commandos to go back to that is, um, I [02:09:25] mean, don’t get me wrong, there’s all different types of people, but, um, the lads will [02:09:30] quickly find you out if you are inauthentic or [02:09:35] you are selfish. There there [02:09:40] is a very it’s a very good environment for that. Um, and [02:09:45] they are very honest with each other about high performance. And if [02:09:50] you look at the successful sports teams, they’ll go down to Lympstone, which is where they [02:09:55] train the Royal Marine Commandos, which is the longest course in NATO. Um, and like I say, makes [02:10:00] up about 70% of UK special forces. And there’s a reason why the England rugby [02:10:05] team do 2 or 3 days down there, and they get a report on each of the players on their mental attitude [02:10:10] for pressure. Um, it’s a very levelling [02:10:15] playing field, whether you’re super tall, super short or middle [02:10:20] like me, you end up, um, struggling with something.

Mike Hesketh: You [02:10:25] leave a struggle on the load carries or you struggle on the anaerobic physical activity. And then it’s [02:10:30] what you do when it when they want to see your weakness and what you do in your weakness. [02:10:35] It might be you. Not very good with lack of sleep. You might not be very good with the cold, [02:10:40] you might not be very good with the heat. And so they always that everyone [02:10:45] will fail something on the course where they need the person next to them to get them through it, and [02:10:50] how they react to that. And so it’s a very humbling experience [02:10:55] to go through the commando course. Yeah it is. And and so you, you take [02:11:00] that into consultancy. You know, everyone has weaknesses. I have lots of weaknesses. I, I admire [02:11:05] creative leaders. I’m a type of leader. Uh, Lara raises the [02:11:10] energy of the business when she turns up and but her worst nightmare would be having an awkward conversation with a staff member. [02:11:15] And she doesn’t want to be responsible for anyone else’s work. But everyone follows her. She’s so different [02:11:20] to me. The clinical leads are different. They’re cerebral leaders based on evidence. You know, [02:11:25] you don’t have to be a mike esque if you can be your own type of leader. So when I’m working with consultants [02:11:30] and clients and these nice people, I want them to I want to understand how they operate [02:11:35] and what makes them tick, um, really deeply understand it. [02:11:40] And to do that, you can’t do it. I don’t think, on the groups. I think I need to do it on a 1 to 1 basis, [02:11:45] which is I find it more valuable mentally and enjoyable. [02:11:50]

Payman Langroudi: Excellent. Final question. Yeah. It’s a it’s a [02:11:55] fantasy dinner party.

[BOTH]: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests, dead or alive? [02:12:00] Yeah.

Mike Hesketh: Probably wouldn’t mind my dad. Uh, yeah, that’d be [02:12:05] good. Um, don’t really remember conversations with him, so that’d be good. Going back to that. [02:12:10] Um, I had a mate, John Thornton, killed in Afghanistan, uh, [02:12:15] landed in the UK, and I put my bags down on the living [02:12:20] room. We got away, got away? We had one man killed in a whole tour. [02:12:25] We had a very good officer in charge, commanding officer, and we got away with it until [02:12:30] the last 2 or 3 weeks. And we lost John and his colleague. Um, [02:12:35] and he was 22 years old, and he was an [02:12:40] amazing soldier. And I talk about him. I’m doing the quarter talks at the moment for Chris, and I talk about [02:12:45] that. Um, it would be lovely if he was still around. Um, and [02:12:50] then probably inspirational. I don’t know, it’d be quite funny. Sat there with Muhammad Ali, [02:12:55] probably in his prime. Um, I always, I just, I always followed Muhammad Ali when I was little and [02:13:00] enjoyed that.

Payman Langroudi: So when you’re going into a tour, you’re very aware of that, that not all [02:13:05] of you are going to be coming out?

Mike Hesketh: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is that like you really? Everyone understands that?

[BOTH]: Yeah. Yeah. And [02:13:10] everyone knows because.

Mike Hesketh: Because it only. How is it. How is that in it when it was worst. Because [02:13:15] 2005 the Paras was when it kicked off. Sorry Eric. [02:13:20] Five it was called. So every six months is given a number. So Herrick five was [02:13:25] where it really got bad. And then Herrick six and then it was us [02:13:30] in Herrick seven and alternating between the paratroopers and the commandos. [02:13:35] As the spearhead elite forces in UK, soldiering was [02:13:40] what needed to happen to control the Taliban at the time. And we never lost a gunfight. We just, [02:13:45] um, lost the the war in a way. But, um, [02:13:50] never lost the battle. Um, Maybe the political war. I don’t know. But, [02:13:55] um. Yeah, you know, that people are gonna, you know, and so they make you fill out, [02:14:00] um, a will and they, like, on a piece of paper, and then they make you write a letter [02:14:05] to your to. I was engaged at the time, wasn’t married, but my grandma died. [02:14:10] And so bearing in mind my dad had died. So my grandparents, his parents helped raise [02:14:15] me. There were a couple hundred metres away in our small town in Wales. And so they raised me. And my [02:14:20] grandma died while I was in Afghanistan. Mhm. And so I just got a phone call from Lauren. She said, look, [02:14:25] I’m sorry to tell you, I didn’t tell, I think I told [02:14:30] Laura, but I didn’t tell my mum that I’d gone forward. I told everyone I was still in the camp back in the [02:14:35] desert, a bit like mash, you know, like volleyball and all that lot, even though it was [02:14:40] horrendous. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Going forward means getting to front line.

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there’s a, there’s.

Mike Hesketh: Like [02:14:45] a massive base in the middle of the desert that the Taliban can’t get anywhere near. It’s never attacked. And then and it’s got [02:14:50] all the firepower in the world. All the planes and the Apache gunships. And then when you [02:14:55] go into the valley, there’s a town, and then there’s satellites around it in the agricultural areas where the population is. [02:15:00] So then that’s where that’s where all the gunfights. And they’re.

Payman Langroudi: Much more vulnerable.

[BOTH]: There. Yeah.

Mike Hesketh: And so [02:15:05] they I mean, we’d be in a gunfight and the Apache gunship would come overhead and and [02:15:10] open up on the hillside in the distance and rain down fire [02:15:15] to drive the enemy off. Um, and also Harrier jump jets. And that’s [02:15:20] why Prince Harry was with us. Because Prince Harry’s job was to talk to the [02:15:25] Apache gunships and the Harrier jump jets to drop bombs. It’s called a Jtag Joint tactical Air [02:15:30] controller. And he was in the valley next to us in Muscala, and, um, [02:15:35] but he had to call in the air support with our jetpack, and so he on. [02:15:40] Before you go, you do, um, training together. And so I slept in a tent [02:15:45] with Prince Harry for a week. Um, not on our own. That would have been a bit weird if [02:15:50] we’re on our own. Um, but he, uh, you know, he’s made some interesting things, but he was he was attached [02:15:55] to us for a week. Yeah. So he did some training with us, and then it was when he was really young, and he was a very [02:16:00] good soldier. Um, and so, um. Yeah, he he [02:16:05] was in danger. He was he was in danger on his first tour when he wasn’t a pilot [02:16:10] and when he was a soldier on the ground. Yeah, he was on very. And that’s why they had to whip him out. Actually, John [02:16:15] Thornton, the chap I mentioned earlier for the dinner party, he did an evacuation [02:16:20] radio. The next time I heard John Thornton, after being with [02:16:25] him in Kajaki Dam, there was a hydroelectricity plant the Taliban were trying to blow up.

Mike Hesketh: We were trying to [02:16:30] bring electricity to the valley. So John’s company of men were to protect this hydroelectricity [02:16:35] plant. And I spent a couple of weeks with him, watched a movie with him about the mujahideen [02:16:40] killing everyone in that valley a few decades earlier. A bit of like morbid, morbid entertainment [02:16:45] in the evening. And then, um, the next time I heard him was in a different base, [02:16:50] and they say something called contact. Wait out. And all the radios die straight away because [02:16:55] someone’s hit a mine or someone’s in a gunfight, and they need the airline. And, um, it [02:17:00] was John Thornton, and he was so good on the radio, so calm. And [02:17:05] he was evacuating a marine that had lost an arm and a leg called Ben McBean. That [02:17:10] was Ben McBean that was put on the helicopter on the plane back to Selly Oak that [02:17:15] Prince Harry was evacuated with. When the Aussie journalist announced that Prince [02:17:20] Harry was in in Afghanistan and put him at risk with the Taliban. So he’d done about 3 or [02:17:25] 4 months on the ground and got his soldiering in. But then he had to be evacuated because [02:17:30] he became a target for everybody. Um, the men around him as well. And so he [02:17:35] was on this plane looking at Ben McBean. Ben McBean was evacuated by my mate John Thornton. Now, [02:17:40] that’s what inspired the Invictus Games. So the Invictus Games that Prince [02:17:45] Harry was was him staring at Ben McBean.

Mike Hesketh: Remember, Dean was Charlie Company, 40 Commando. [02:17:50] So he was one of us. And so that’s what the Invictus Games came [02:17:55] from, you know. So, yeah, you know, when you go that [02:18:00] you are going to lose friends and get injured. And I had a very [02:18:05] sane conversation with a friend with my Singapore friend who was a reservist, [02:18:10] the ship’s chap. He, uh, we had a conversation in the back of the wagon at [02:18:15] one point where we rationalised, look, if we, what would we accept [02:18:20] to get out of Afghanistan? Um, and we we decided that a below [02:18:25] knee amputation was acceptable. Weird. Like, who has [02:18:30] conversations like that? I was a dentist. Well, and I [02:18:35] vividly remember it. And he wrote it in his journal and he was a good journaler. So he he’s brilliant because [02:18:40] when I post on LinkedIn about being a dentist in this environment, he will [02:18:45] often pop up and go, oh my journal. That day we talked about a below knee amputation [02:18:50] would be acceptable for us. We got out of one vehicle once transferred [02:18:55] to another because we were being moved together, and the vehicle reversed. The [02:19:00] other vehicle we’d just gotten out of, reversed up a hill a bit and hit a tank [02:19:05] mine, and the back end of the vehicle was blown to smithereens. We’d been sat in about [02:19:10] five minutes before, just reversed over a mine in the middle, in the middle of nowhere, and it was [02:19:15] a Russian mine.

Payman Langroudi: Just one left behind from.

[BOTH]: Just left behind.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. And [02:19:20] so then they were like, right, okay, well, it’s called a Viking. It’s worth £10 million. So it’s in two parts. And [02:19:25] the back part was destroyed, which Pete and I were saying. And then, um, so we had [02:19:30] to go up on the Hill line and everyone was like, do you want to fire some rockets at it? Because we’ve got to deny it to [02:19:35] the enemy. So then they called in an airstrike, and we’re watching the best fireworks show ever of an airstrike [02:19:40] landing on our own vehicle that we were just sat in half an hour earlier was [02:19:45] destroyed. Denying it. I mean, there’s funny stories like that. Like [02:19:50] the Padre. There’s another one the Padre got went in a vehicle and, [02:19:55] uh, probably shouldn’t have done, but he, uh, he got in a vehicle. We were, I was [02:20:00] in I was working out with a guy in the middle of the in the middle of one of the forward operating bases, and a [02:20:05] Chinese missile came over and detonated in the middle of the of the base. So we all bomb burst [02:20:10] and legged it to accommodation. And then all of the what happens is everyone runs to the walls and opens fire. [02:20:15]

Mike Hesketh: And the direction of where the target, where the hits come from, and they’re firing in [02:20:20] rocket propelled grenades and the whole earth shakes and you’ve got to get down really low. [02:20:25] And it’s. And it’s not like the rock running through or Jason Statham when [02:20:30] they see these explosions, the whole world, all your senses are debilitated when the missiles come in and the rockets [02:20:35] come in. But the Padre jumped on a vehicle and reversed it up the to [02:20:40] the top of the bun line so that they so the marine on the back could fire a 50 cal, which [02:20:45] is a big weapon down at where these missiles were anyway. So that attack finished. And then the next [02:20:50] day there was a parachute drop of, um, food into the desert. And so [02:20:55] the so the Padres vehicle was one of the ones that went out there and it hit a mine, but with [02:21:00] a three different crew on it, and it was blown to smithereens with three men on it, and [02:21:05] all of them walked away.

Payman Langroudi: Well.

Mike Hesketh: And so everyone then decided [02:21:10] that they were religious and that the Padre had blessed this vehicle the day before because he just sat in [02:21:15] it and driven it. So yeah, it’s just all these weird scenarios. But.

Payman Langroudi: So [02:21:20] when I asked you, you said, I believe in God. Now, did you change your position?

Mike Hesketh: I [02:21:25] think there’s a higher being. Yeah, I think there’s a purpose. I think as you become more enlightened and less I [02:21:30] think there’s a higher being. Yeah. As, as far as I get with it, really. Um, [02:21:35] but yeah, I’d like to think so as well, because there are others on [02:21:40] Schmidt, who was a bomb disposal chap who made a mistake on his fifth [02:21:45] bomb disposal of the day. He’s got an obituary in the Times, and [02:21:50] he was on the commando course with me, and he was the best sergeant I’ve ever been with a heart and soul guy. He became [02:21:55] very high profile because of the pressure the bomb disposal guys were under in Afghanistan. [02:22:00] He was killed, um, a guy called Tom Sawyer who [02:22:05] was the best officer I’d ever seen. A little snip of a ginger chap, but just [02:22:10] a natural leader. And he was killed by friendly fire. Oh, yeah. By, um, [02:22:15] in a different tour. So all through this period, seen [02:22:20] men, friends killed. Um.

Payman Langroudi: How’d you go on? Do [02:22:25] you compartmentalise it? Are you trained to go on? After that happens, [02:22:30] you.

Mike Hesketh: Do.

Payman Langroudi: Two days. Are you too busy saving your own life?

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. Yeah. No. You just. Yeah. No, it’s. [02:22:35] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is it?

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. It’s to remember. It’s to close within to kill the enemy of [02:22:40] the chosen time. And so then when people apply decision [02:22:45] making now of whether they should attack a village or not, attack a village from the distance of [02:22:50] the, of London in the newspapers. Yeah, yeah. It’s hard. It’s not, you [02:22:55] know, it’s kill or be killed.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mike Hesketh: Which is brutal. Um, [02:23:00] but you do it with care and attention and professionalism. Um, [02:23:05] but we’re only, you know, a few short steps [02:23:10] from that, and I don’t think I don’t buy into this millennial Gen Z rubbish. I [02:23:15] think that people step up. There’s always ability within the within. [02:23:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I don’t like.

Mike Hesketh: That, I hate.

Payman Langroudi: Those, I don’t like.

Mike Hesketh: Generalisations.

Payman Langroudi: It’s rubbish.

Mike Hesketh: I hate [02:23:25] it. I just think that even at the time I think people would say, oh, you know, this generation isn’t as [02:23:30] good. Well, I just watched these guys at 19 years old getting a gunfight every 2 or 3 days [02:23:35] and willingly walk back out the gates and go again for six months.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a child, isn’t [02:23:40] it? A 19 year old child. Can you.

Mike Hesketh: Imagine?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s crazy that that’s [02:23:45] that’s what ends up happening. Like those children go out. [02:23:50] Yeah.

Mike Hesketh: I mean, it’s a very formative stage, [02:23:55] and I think it’s more powerful now as I get older, in my mid 40s, [02:24:00] that I go, oh Jesus, that wasn’t normal. Mhm. Um, and I don’t know whether [02:24:05] I should have um, you know, to answer your question. [02:24:10] No, you don’t get any support unless you’re looking for it. Um, but it’s not like de facto. [02:24:15] Hey, um, they take you to Cyprus on the way back and you’ve [02:24:20] got to stay there for 2 or 3 days. You just get drunk and you just drink [02:24:25] your way through it for 2 or 3 days, and then you land back in the UK, and, and I ended up in an A&E with a commando [02:24:30] beret on, with a uniform and a manager of a hospital berated me at two in the morning telling me that I wasn’t [02:24:35] moving patients through the unit quick enough. I think that was the closest I got to nearly losing my [02:24:40] temper with someone professionally.

Payman Langroudi: Did you get PTSD?

Mike Hesketh: No, [02:24:45] not diagnosed with it or anything like that. But I think, you know, you just talk about it, don’t you? But I’ve always talked about [02:24:50] it. You know, I’ve always.

Payman Langroudi: That helps.

Mike Hesketh: I it does me. [02:24:55]

Payman Langroudi: Other people bottle it up.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah. I talk about it with with my wife. Um, you [02:25:00] know, at the time, um, and then, you [02:25:05] know, actually, it’s been very, very therapeutic talking about it on podcasts [02:25:10] and also doing it with colleagues because it’s it’s an [02:25:15] interesting reaction at the moment where I’m doing these talking series. We’ve talked about 400 practice owners [02:25:20] and people throughout the UK as part of this series. Um, [02:25:25] I’ve had 2 or 3 people at each time come up to me at the end and go, thank [02:25:30] you for your service. And service. And I never think like that. But there were just lovely people and [02:25:35] quite a few mums with children in the military that [02:25:40] I then think, oh, I need to be careful, you know, um, [02:25:45] with the honesty, there’s a reason I didn’t tell my wife and my mum [02:25:50] that I was forward in the operating bases for three months. Um, there’s a [02:25:55] reason I didn’t tell them I was on the ground being a medic, stretcher, carrying injured Marines [02:26:00] with eyes hanging out and abdomens hanging out. Um, there’s [02:26:05] stuff people just don’t really need to know. But, um, does business [02:26:10] faze me? No. Not really. They have a saying at the end which is called cheerfulness [02:26:15] in the face of adversity, cheerfulness in the face of adversity. Well, [02:26:20] you have, like you’d imagine, the other commando qualities of courage, determination and all that stuff. [02:26:25] But I always find that really funny. But the Marines are are [02:26:30] generally cheerful.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting.

Mike Hesketh: Yeah, it’s quite funny.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [02:26:35]

Mike Hesketh: You know, um, because if it’s not, if you’re not laughing, then there’s something. [02:26:40] You’re thinking too much, you know?

Payman Langroudi: I think I always tell young dentists, you know, go [02:26:45] do a stint of maxfax just to get just just to just to never be scared of [02:26:50] dentistry again. Yeah, yeah. But this this is a higher level of that, isn’t [02:26:55] it? For life.

Mike Hesketh: I wouldn’t I wouldn’t advocate it.

Payman Langroudi: Not much is going to happen in life that’s going to faze you.

Mike Hesketh: Not [02:27:00] really, but I would say that everyone’s got an Afghanistan in them. You know, I heard stories from [02:27:05] on the MBA by Venezuelan, um, student who told me about his kidnapping. He was kidnapped [02:27:10] and taken into the jungle in Venezuela and, you know, kidnappings, a big business over there. And he had to talk his way out [02:27:15] of it. What do you think? Yeah, and I didn’t know that. And then other friends who’ve had, [02:27:20] you know, personal tragedies. It doesn’t matter what your Afghanistan is. It just [02:27:25] matters that, you know, that life can be worse than when you run your business and no one’s dying.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [02:27:30]

Mike Hesketh: And that puts things into perspective a little bit. And so the cheerfulness in the [02:27:35] face of adversity is one of them.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I really, really enjoyed [02:27:40] it, man. I really, really enjoyed it. Thank you so much.

[VOICE]: This is [02:27:45] Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [02:27:50] leaders in dentistry. Your [02:27:55] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [02:28:00] for listening guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge [02:28:05] thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and [02:28:10] what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value [02:28:15] out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend [02:28:20] who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t [02:28:25] forget our six star rating.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is mind movers [00:00:10] moving the conversation forward on mental health [00:00:15] and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:00:20] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Hi [00:00:25] everyone, welcome to another episode of Mind Movers. I haven’t been on for a very long time because I think a [00:00:30] lot of you will know that I went and had a baby. I was in ICU for two months, but I have [00:00:35] been back for a very special podcast just before Christmas, and I [00:00:40] was so excited when they told me that he had the amazingly wonderful Nellie Patel. For those [00:00:45] of you that don’t know, Nellie Patel is an incredible cosmetic dentist based in the famous Kiss Dental [00:00:50] with Kailash Solanki, and she is also a superstar [00:00:55] from the TV show MAFs. Now, I have to admit, I only started watching MAFs. The very first [00:01:00] season that I watched was during my maternity leave. So when I saw there was a cosmetic dentist, I [00:01:05] got really excited. And obviously, I think that we can all agree that she was incredible [00:01:10] on the show. For those of you that didn’t watch the show, the premise of the show is, is that a bunch of experts get together [00:01:15] when you apply, they match you up with someone that they believe to be your soulmate, and the first time [00:01:20] that you meet them is on your wedding day. You then go on to get married. The marriage then [00:01:25] progresses. You have check ins with the experts. You see what the dynamics are with your family, how it [00:01:30] is living with each other. And I love all that sort of experimental stuff. So it’s going to [00:01:35] be a really interesting conversation to learn from somebody who has got the media spotlight in dentistry, [00:01:40] but also to understand how to navigate relationship dynamics in the modern day world. [00:01:45] So welcome, Nelly.

Neelima Patel: Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Really excited. [00:01:50] Um, I’m going to jump straight in there because I know pay is like, this is going to turn into like two women. So [00:01:55] obviously, as I said, you know, you have been an incredibly credible cosmetic dentist [00:02:00] at Kiss Dental. I want to actually start with that. How did [00:02:05] your journey start? So you told me you’re from Loughborough, but what university did you go to?

Neelima Patel: I [00:02:10] went to University of Sheffield.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, amazing. And did you know you wanted to be a dentist from a young age? Did [00:02:15] you just kind of fall into it? How did it happen?

Neelima Patel: Honestly, no. I think my dream job was to be like an astronaut [00:02:20] for a bit. I had no idea. And then I think when I, you know, when it was time to [00:02:25] sort of start choosing your A-levels and stuff, I always knew I was a science girl. And I’m [00:02:30] like, good with people. Yeah. Um, so it was either, you know, I was tossing up between dentistry and medicine for a very long time, [00:02:35] and then, um, I chose dentistry. It was honestly really 50 over 50. Just chose [00:02:40] it because I think I knew I wanted to do surgery or something like. And, yeah, I [00:02:45] knew I wanted to do surgery. I think with medicine, it’s really difficult. Like I wanted to if I [00:02:50] was going to do medicine, I was going to do the surgery side of it. That includes nights I wanted to I wanted to have a life where [00:02:55] I could have a family and stuff, and I think dentistry allowed me to go down that path if I wanted to.

Rhona Eskander: So you qualified in [00:03:00] 2017, which is a lot later than me. I am an old bird now, and I would love [00:03:05] to know how you got into such a successful cosmetic practice, because I think that’s what a lot of young dentists would want to [00:03:10] know as well. You only graduated seven years ago, eight years ago [00:03:15] now in 2026. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. But you know, [00:03:20] you how was your kind of cosmetic dentistry journey. How did you get into that field?

Neelima Patel: To be honest, I [00:03:25] would say I mean it’s something that’s always interested me for a while. And then I met Kailash, [00:03:30] um, through a friend, um, on a night out. And then we I sort of followed [00:03:35] him on Instagram, and I saw that he was doing sort of the mentorship program that he does. And so I literally [00:03:40] just messaged him on Instagram and I said I’d really be interested in it. And then, yeah, it kind of it kind of just [00:03:45] spiralled from there.

Payman Langroudi: How long have you been there now?

Neelima Patel: So I started in 2020. So yeah about [00:03:50] five and a half years.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Amazing I love that. So what does the mentorship program involve? Quite interested. [00:03:55]

Neelima Patel: So it’s two years. And then on the first year you do three clinical days, two days shadowing. [00:04:00] And it’s just shadowing Kailash um, all day. And then the second year you drop to one [00:04:05] shadow day and have four clinical days. And it’s just literally watching him learning how to do [00:04:10] the restorative stuff, um, or the like all the yeah, all the cosmetic stuff that you kind of [00:04:15] you don’t get taught at uni.

Rhona Eskander: I always say to people that I think mentorship is really underrated. Like, I’m sure you’ve [00:04:20] got a lot of young dentists and like, it’s one of the best things that you can do. Like one of my mentors at the moment [00:04:25] is Christian Coachman, and I remember watching him at Bacd in 2000 and I [00:04:30] want to say 12 or something. Was that the year I think I can’t remember, but anyways, and now I’ve invested [00:04:35] in kind of doing like a mentorship program with him. And I always say it’s like it’s such a good thing to do because you just learn [00:04:40] so much from people that have done it, and it’s definitely a great investment. Okay, amazing. [00:04:45] So have you enjoyed dentistry?

Neelima Patel: Yeah. You know what? I think since starting [00:04:50] I think Since starting at Kiss, I’ve actually really enjoyed it. I think it’s the clinic. I really enjoy being there. [00:04:55] I think the people are great, but also I’m really enjoying the sort of treatments I do. Sounds cheesy, but you know, [00:05:00] making someone smile and actually improving their confidence. It’s nice.

Rhona Eskander: Amazing.

Neelima Patel: It’s quite it’s like fulfilling. [00:05:05]

Payman Langroudi: You landed on your feet, right? Because it. Have you ever been to kiss?

Rhona Eskander: No, I’ve never been to [00:05:10] kiss.

Payman Langroudi: It’s like. It’s like a very busy, very private [00:05:15] practice, you know, like, normally. Yeah. But normally, normally practices are either busy or they’re [00:05:20] private. Yeah. You don’t see both at the same time. Or you go to kiss his waiting room. There’s loads of people [00:05:25] waiting. There’s loads of people coming and going. And then you realise, oh, it’s one of the sort of higher end practices [00:05:30] as well.

Rhona Eskander: Would you say that also in northern practices like, well, where northern dentistry [00:05:35] is, there’s less competition than London?

Neelima Patel: No, no.

Rhona Eskander: Really. So a lot of [00:05:40] a lot of dental practices because I don’t really kind of I studied in Leeds, Manchester.

Neelima Patel: There’s so much competition [00:05:45] in Manchester.

Rhona Eskander: Oh really. That’s interesting. That is interesting because I didn’t know. [00:05:50] You know, because obviously London, you think it’s so big and you’ve got all the different areas, etc..

Payman Langroudi: Maybe it’s not as [00:05:55] bad as London, but I mean, probably the second most competitive.

Neelima Patel: Leeds and Liverpool and all those places around as well. So [00:06:00] you’re competing with all those areas because.

Rhona Eskander: And are they as popular, do you think Manchester’s The Hub.

Neelima Patel: Liverpool’s [00:06:05] pretty busy. There’s some really good clinics in Liverpool, Leeds as well. But like yeah [00:06:10] I think those two areas are our main competitors really.

Rhona Eskander: Would you say it’s a certain type of aesthetic that [00:06:15] people want because, see, like in London with Chelsea, people are so [00:06:20] picky as in like they really don’t want people to know they’ve had their teeth done. So this has to be like undetectable cosmetic [00:06:25] dentistry, you know, it has to be like, that’s it’s a lot harder. You know, you’re never going to have anyone go for [00:06:30] bl1 like it’s.

Payman Langroudi: A lot of SB, SB one composite up north. [00:06:35]

Neelima Patel: Yeah, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So I’m trying to ask, is it do people want to look like they’ve had their teeth done if that makes sense? Yeah. [00:06:40] I mean.

Neelima Patel: Don’t get me wrong. Obviously I’ll have an array of patients. I have a lot of people that will say I just want something subtle. [00:06:45] Often it’s I want people to know I’ve had my teeth done, but I don’t want them to look overdone. And I’m just like, [00:06:50] watch it. I’m like, yeah, right. Okay. I’ll figure it out. I’ll figure it out when I’m there. Um, but a lot of times [00:06:55] it’s like, yeah, no, I want people to know I’ve had my teeth and I just don’t want them to have been done in Turkey. And I’m like, well, at least you’ve gone for the [00:07:00] sensible option and get them done safely here. Yeah. Um, but yeah, it’s just I guess everyone has different. [00:07:05]

Payman Langroudi: You know? Matty. Matty talks about this Matty Parsons. He’s he’s in Liverpool. And [00:07:10] he says as long as the patient says I want, he’s okay. [00:07:15] If the patient says, I want everyone to know I’ve had my teeth out. I want big white teeth, I want this. He [00:07:20] says the problem is when the patient says, you decide.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Then he doesn’t know. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And then? [00:07:25] And then he does something. And then the patient’s, you know, idea of that was totally different. To what? Yeah. You [00:07:30] know that. You must get that a lot. Right.

Rhona Eskander: No. Yeah. Sometimes. And I think also, unfortunately, [00:07:35] because of my social media, people do put me on the, like, holy grail sometimes and they think [00:07:40] that I know better. And I think one of the most challenging things about being your own brand and [00:07:45] dentistry. And one thing that I regret and I’m having to do is basing the brand on you. And I think one thing that [00:07:50] Kailash has done really well is pivoted the brand away from him and reverted it back to kiss, [00:07:55] which now I’m trying to do with Chelsea Dental, because, see, for example, I would say I have some clinicians [00:08:00] in my clinic that are better and more talented than me, but the patient, even if they get diverted [00:08:05] to them and they’re not happy, they’re like, but I wanted to see Rona anyways. This wouldn’t have happened with Rona. And it’s like, [00:08:10] it’s the patient. It’s not the dentist, you know, because I know those dentists are much more capable than me. So [00:08:15] it’s quite an interesting psychology. You know, there was a patient that was disgruntled with one of my dentists, and then [00:08:20] she was like, all of Rona’s patients are happy on Instagram. You’re not going to show your [00:08:25] bad bits, you know? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So we used to talk about it all [00:08:30] the time with Kailash and Prav. The question of can you bottle Kailash [00:08:35] before he started that program? Yeah. And, um, now he’s really shown that you can because [00:08:40] you guys, you know, there’s so many of you who’ve come through that program. And doing well, right? [00:08:45] You know, like working high level. High volume, high price. [00:08:50] Um, so it’s an impressive thing. You should look at that. You should look at that.

Rhona Eskander: I mean, I think it’s [00:08:55] interesting, but also, like, I don’t have the time to dedicate. You know, I recognised as well that mentorship [00:09:00] requires so much time. So whilst now juggling like being a mum and running a. I [00:09:05] already do so much so like my, my kind of pivot as well is like doing a lot of PR for [00:09:10] my other dentists and getting them to treat journalists and celebrities so [00:09:15] that people then say I want to see them, which is like models that some other practices have used as well. So don’t [00:09:20] just push one person. So I went to my PR and I was like, okay doctor, [00:09:25] Rona PR def and Chelsea Dental PR different, you know what I mean? So like before it used to be [00:09:30] like Rona at Chelsea and now it’s like I’m now sent the biographies of all my dentists and going [00:09:35] for that, because we have had younger dentists in the practice and they have been really good. [00:09:40] But I think with the mentorship that you’re talking about, like, I can’t be watching them every minute of the day [00:09:45] because also I’m treating patients sometimes and their confidence is different. And Chelsea [00:09:50] is really tricky. Like, the patients are kind of on another level of pickiness. And even [00:09:55] my very experienced dentists now, Doctor Justin and Doctor Pete, they both [00:10:00] said like Chelsea, patients are very well versed in dentistry. They don’t come in being [00:10:05] like, hey, like, this is what I want. They like they know about line angles, they know about translucency. They’re very [00:10:10] well versed, like their sort of patients that have done their research. They buy very quickly, but [00:10:15] they know what they want, you know. So anyway, we understand the kind of like kiss journey. [00:10:20] So fast forward to last year. Was it filmed last year?

Neelima Patel: Yeah, filmed last year. [00:10:25]

Rhona Eskander: Okay. Amazing. How did you get on to MAFs? How did it start?

Neelima Patel: So started. I got DM [00:10:30] on my Instagram and then it just kind of rolled from there, really. So it was. It wasn’t [00:10:35] even for married at First sight. It was for another show. Love is blind. Yeah, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: And then I [00:10:40] feel like that’s also somewhat better in some ways, but go on.

Neelima Patel: Yeah. Well I remember and then but that was sort of very towards [00:10:45] the end of the casting process. Um, so then they were like, look, it’s not going to happen this time. Can [00:10:50] we keep your stuff on file? And I said, yeah, but I don’t really can imagine myself on [00:10:55] any other shows. I can’t really I can’t really see it. Um, and I didn’t realise at the time that it’s the same production [00:11:00] company for Maths and Love Is Blind. So then I was like the only one I could go on, maybe would be something like maths. [00:11:05] And he was like, oh great, um, I’ll keep your number on. And then a month later I got a phone call and it just sort of went from [00:11:10] there, really.

Rhona Eskander: And what was going through your mind at that point? Like, were you like excited? [00:11:15] Were you thinking, this is something I’ve always wanted to do? Were you worried about what? Your family, your friends, what anyone thinks?

Neelima Patel: Yeah, [00:11:20] I think at the time, well, I didn’t think it was going to happen because you don’t really get confirmed until quite late [00:11:25] on. But all the meetings and stuff, I just had it in my head, as probably, I probably will get pulled [00:11:30] out last minute. It won’t happen. I didn’t really think about it, if I’m honest. It was only towards the very end where [00:11:35] contracts and stuff were coming through. I just thought, oh my God, I’m really going to have to choose now. Um, [00:11:40] spoke to I think everyone around me was hesitant. I had one person that [00:11:45] was like, yes, absolutely have to do this. Everyone else, a lot of my Dental friends were like, don’t do it. [00:11:50] Um, Kayla said not to do it. Why? I think they were very much like there was a stigma [00:11:55] attached with it. Um, and what if you mess up? What if you get cancelled? Um, [00:12:00] just loads of things.

Rhona Eskander: Can I tell you? Um, I think it’s one of the bravest things you’ve ever done. And if you [00:12:05] ask me, one of my biggest regrets is in life. It was not going on a reality TV show when I got asked [00:12:10] when I first qualified in 2010, about 2011 Made and Chelsea had just started, [00:12:15] I knew quite a lot of the cast. I got put forward like by three people. I [00:12:20] said no because I was too worried what people think for all of those reasons, and I think it’s one of the worst decisions [00:12:25] I ever made in my life.

Payman Langroudi: What would have happened to you if you hadn’t gone on that?

Rhona Eskander: But you’ll never know. But at the end of the day, [00:12:30] I think that, you know, it gives you a platform and it gives you like opportunities that you [00:12:35] may never have.

Payman Langroudi: And we had. We’ve had guests.

Payman Langroudi: Here saying that it ruined their lives.

Rhona Eskander: True. [00:12:40] It can happen, and we know that. And I’m sure Nelly will tell you the same about some people that have been at MAFs, that their mental health [00:12:45] was probably on a string. You know, some people. But at the end of the day, I think it’s a brave thing to do. It’s [00:12:50] a brave decision.

Payman Langroudi: So how did you feel going against everyone’s advice? Yeah, that must have been.

Rhona Eskander: Did you worry? [00:12:55] Did people impact you and be like, oh, should I, should I do this?

Neelima Patel: Yeah. I mean, I felt like a bit of a badass. I was like, you know what? [00:13:00] I don’t care what anyone thinks. I’m going to do it anyway because I never I very much care what people think. And I think [00:13:05] for the first time in my life, I thought, no, I’m going to do it. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But Nelly, you know, talking to you [00:13:10] before. Yeah. One thing I noticed about you is you’ve got very cool parents.

Neelima Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like, not [00:13:15] your typical Asian parents.

Neelima Patel: No, they’re the best, aren’t they?

Payman Langroudi: So, you know, maybe that gives you.

Rhona Eskander: Did you talk [00:13:20] to them about it before you?

Payman Langroudi: What did they say?

Rhona Eskander: What did they say? Or did you talk to them after you got confirmed?

Neelima Patel: No, I told I told [00:13:25] them before my dad was like, this is a ridiculous idea. It is my mum and my mum [00:13:30] was there. Like, I think it sounds great because she watches it. So she was like, that sounds fun. And [00:13:35] my brother and sister were very hesitant. But I think my mom and dad, I kind of said to them, like, look, I’m going to do [00:13:40] what I want anyway. So you either get on board with it or you don’t. So that’s why my dad came around. They’ll never stop me from, [00:13:45] like, doing. I think he knows that he can never stop me.

Rhona Eskander: Have a question for you. Why did [00:13:50] you want to go on a reality TV program based on love? Did you feel at that point in [00:13:55] your life you were ready for love, and you’d almost kind of given up on dating? Did you feel like you wanted [00:14:00] to put your love life in experts hands? Like, what was the catalyst? Because there’s love and blind and maths. And if [00:14:05] the premise is essentially meeting somebody, connecting on that level and moving things very quickly. [00:14:10] Right. So something inside of you must have felt, I’m ready for this. Is that fair [00:14:15] to say?

Neelima Patel: Yeah, 100%. Like I was very ready to. I hate the dating scene. I [00:14:20] didn’t enjoy it. Then I’d stop dating for a little while, and I just kind of thought, well, I’m getting on a bit and [00:14:25] it’s fun. I think I find reality TV fascinating. I watch it, um, and I thought, what if I [00:14:30] get to be one of the lucky ones that actually gets matched up perfectly well and they end up together.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, so that was the.

Neelima Patel: I [00:14:35] really did want to meet someone. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Okay. So they called you up and they said you’ve been successful. Yeah. [00:14:40] At that point, did you know anything about the person they were setting you up with?

Neelima Patel: Literally not a single thing.

Rhona Eskander: Fine. [00:14:45] And did you then have to with work what happened? Because I’m assuming the filming schedule [00:14:50] conflicted. You know, how did you have to tell Kailash? Did you have to get time off kiss? How did it work?

Neelima Patel: Yeah. So I took [00:14:55] like ten weeks off work. I rang Kailash when? [00:15:00] Not before. I was before I was confirmed, actually, I rang Kailash just to tell him, like, look, this is in the pipeline. It’s something [00:15:05] that I really do want to do, but I’ve not decided yet. And I was very 5050 at this point. And K was like, [00:15:10] um, look, I don’t I don’t think you should do it. I don’t think it’s a good idea. But if you do, I’ll support you. [00:15:15] And that was the green light for me. Yeah. So. Well, it was nice because I just thought, well, I’ve got time to think [00:15:20] about it then I’ve got at least I know I can have it off if I need to. Let me actually just go into a decision based on. [00:15:25] Yeah. So then, um. Yeah. So then I had [00:15:30] to take off 12. Well, ten weeks. Sorry, I took off ten weeks. Um, with my patients. Why? I [00:15:35] did a lot for a lot of people try to finish their treatments off. So I did like extra evenings, did a few weekends, [00:15:40] finished them off, and then any new patients, I saw any remedial work. I had [00:15:45] Lucy, who works at Kiss and she appeared on the show, but she basically looked after all my patients. [00:15:50]

Rhona Eskander: Okay, fine. Amazing. So first you rock up and I remember that [00:15:55] first scene and you looked absolutely stunning. You didn’t see it. She was in her beautiful traditional [00:16:00] Asian wedding.

Payman Langroudi: Is a wedding. Wedding so mad.

Rhona Eskander: Well, the first scene is The Bachelorette, so, [00:16:05] like, you kind of get to know the bachelorettes and the bachelors, and they, they meet each other and they [00:16:10] chat for a little bit, but you don’t really get a great deal.

Neelima Patel: Yeah. We don’t meet the other husbands, we.

Rhona Eskander: Just meet the other ones. But [00:16:15] then then it goes straight basically into the weddings. So yeah, I remember it was an incredible scene. [00:16:20] She’d come in in this incredible, beautiful outfit and traditional outfit, [00:16:25] um, Indian bride. And you see this guy at the altar, and that’s the first time. [00:16:30]

Payman Langroudi: They take your feedback on what you want your wedding to be like or.

Neelima Patel: Like a little bit. So they said, [00:16:35] choose some colour schemes like tick out of the box what you like. And then that was pretty much it. [00:16:40] And then I said, I can’t get married without Paeonies and that’s pretty much all I got.

Rhona Eskander: And then they, I guess they [00:16:45] set the budget and stuff for the wedding, right? Because the TV show paid for it. Uh, and the experts, how many [00:16:50] conversations do you have with them about what you want?

Neelima Patel: The only. So we actually [00:16:55] have, um, just one.

Rhona Eskander: That’s it. That’s scary. Huh?

Payman Langroudi: So [00:17:00] then they match you based on.

Neelima Patel: Because we do, like, there’s loads of forms and stuff. We do loads of personality tests, [00:17:05] that kind of thing. And then we have, like, a face to face.

Rhona Eskander: I have to say though, I think they get it so wrong. Like [00:17:10] as the person that watches the TV show, like as like objectively or subjectively, I [00:17:15] was like, I think they’ve got this so wrong. And I actually think it was quite a poor reflection on the experts. I’m just going [00:17:20] to come out there and say that, and I absolutely adore someone like Paul, for example. But I was [00:17:25] just like, how have they got like, not just for you, but on so many levels of so many different people?

Neelima Patel: Well, technically, [00:17:30] I don’t actually know whether I’m allowed to say this or not, but they have like a so on that day where you [00:17:35] choose your what you kind of want for your wedding and stuff, they have a psychiatrist [00:17:40] who does your personality. She basically does all these questions and stuff and then she technically matches [00:17:45] you. I don’t know how it works. I still don’t know how they.

Rhona Eskander: The experts aren’t the matchmakers.

Neelima Patel: But then I think but we see we don’t [00:17:50] even still know. I don’t know whether they get to do last approvals of them or they say, look, this person [00:17:55] could match either this I would it makes sense to say this person can match these three people. Who do you think is [00:18:00] going to work best? And then the experts have a say. But I think the experts I remember watching a clip that Paul said [00:18:05] that he doesn’t get to choose us. He just gets to choose. These are the people that are presented to him, and then the experts [00:18:10] have to match within that.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so interesting. You know, like it’s fascinating.

Neelima Patel: I’ve been on the show. [00:18:15] I still don’t know how exactly they match.

Payman Langroudi: There’s so much about it. It’s an arranged marriage.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, [00:18:20] but I think but I think that’s the premise. And that’s why I find it so interesting. I interesting. I think, that we’ve become [00:18:25] an age and society where women have become so disillusioned [00:18:30] with the dating scene and the promise of happily ever after, [00:18:35] that they’re happy now to put their lives in someone else’s hands. Like, that’s why these dating shows are so popular. [00:18:40]

Neelima Patel: Out there, man. It’s really rough on the dating scene, I’ve got to tell you.

Payman Langroudi: And we’ll go on, go on. Expand on [00:18:45] that, because.

Rhona Eskander: Payman.

Neelima Patel: Do you want to have a look at my dating apps and then you’ll understand.

Payman Langroudi: No, but really, it’s been [00:18:50] a while, so it’s just horrendous. The story.

Neelima Patel: Nothing. It’s just just I mean, the types of men [00:18:55] I’ve dated, obviously they weren’t great because that’s why I went on MAFs, but it’s just hard. I think even [00:19:00] dating now, like even trying to get a connection. I think this the swiping culture is so people will always think, [00:19:05] and I’ve been guilty of it too, of I can do better. Or if you kind of start talking to someone and it [00:19:10] veers off, or you kind of been dating them for a little bit and then.

Rhona Eskander: Fizzles.

Neelima Patel: Fizzles, I think before, because [00:19:15] it’s so hard to meet someone organically, you kind of want to try and work at it a little bit or find out, but now you just think, [00:19:20] whatever, I’ll just swipe and find somebody else.

Rhona Eskander: I think. Listen, I think ultimately [00:19:25] as well. I saw a clip the other day that I did about attracting narcissists, [00:19:30] and I think, like, there is definitely something to be said for women that are high powered career [00:19:35] women. And we’ve talked about this a lot and pay and I yeah, it is difficult because I think naturally [00:19:40] also the kind of men that we get duped by or attracted to isn’t good. [00:19:45] And that’s why we say like it’s really important to do the work. And when you change your mindset about what you find [00:19:50] is attractive, it really does help. You know, because I’ve gone through like three years [00:19:55] of just like, picking the wrong people. Yeah. And I think, you know, I was like, well, I’m also the [00:20:00] common denominator because I’m allowing them to come into my life. I [00:20:05] remember seeing at the altar I didn’t like him from day one. I’m not gonna lie. Yeah.

Neelima Patel: So many people have said this that they picked [00:20:10] up on.

Rhona Eskander: It, but he was just like, you know, you are this high, empowered, incredibly [00:20:15] educated woman. And I just felt like he was just very much Jack the lad. [00:20:20] Just just.

Payman Langroudi: You.

Rhona Eskander: Know, but I think that he just he was to me. [00:20:25] He wasn’t there for the right reasons. I think you could tell that from the beginning. Like he was there for a bit of fun. And then when the story [00:20:30] unravels, which we’ll talk about, he was he wasn’t taking this seriously.

Neelima Patel: He had a whole [00:20:35] girlfriend before he ghosted her on the wedding day.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. See. Yeah, yeah. And he’s he’s [00:20:40] he’s he’s he’s got children, which obviously there’s nothing wrong with that. But you think that somebody [00:20:45] with that amount of responsibility would be a little bit more mature about these situations, but you weren’t feeling [00:20:50] that that was somebody that was like capable of like huge amounts of responsibility, you know? Yeah, that [00:20:55] was my intuition.

Payman Langroudi: When you first saw.

Rhona Eskander: It. Yeah. What was your thing when you first.

Payman Langroudi: Saw the attracted? What [00:21:00] how did.

Rhona Eskander: You what happened?

Neelima Patel: I my attraction is based on personality. Like, I mean, [00:21:05] when I saw him, I thought, yeah, great. Kind of. What? I’ve dated over six foot tall. [00:21:10] That was that was it. And I thought, oh, his eyes. Yeah. It looks like he’s got [00:21:15] nice eyes. Which on the now I watch it back and I think they [00:21:20] look very evil sometimes, but. Yeah. No. Um, yeah. I think when I first saw him, I was just like, yeah, [00:21:25] okay, I can, I can, I can work with this. We can get to know each other. Yeah, I was happy I was yeah, I was [00:21:30] really happy on the day. I was.

Rhona Eskander: Kidding. You said the honeymoon went really well.

Neelima Patel: The honeymoon was perfect. Yeah, it was really, really good.

Rhona Eskander: Do [00:21:35] you feel like he was pretending to be someone he wasn’t?

Neelima Patel: Yeah. Or maybe. See, [00:21:40] I sometimes I think, is it that he was pretending to be that person? Or because [00:21:45] he pretended extremely well on that honeymoon like it was. It was wild, but. Or was it that when [00:21:50] he came back to the apartments and he saw all the other wives? I don’t know.

Rhona Eskander: Question [00:21:55] for you as well. Maybe you are not allowed to say this. Do you get legally married? I know that sounds weird. Or is it until not until [00:22:00] the renewal of the vows?

Neelima Patel: I think it used to be a legal marriage, but it’s not anymore. But they have, like full on [00:22:05] celebrants that they hire and stuff, so it makes you feel like it is a really.

Rhona Eskander: But it’s not signed, sealed, delivered. Right. [00:22:10] Is the is the renewal of the vows? No. No neither. Okay, fine. So in theory, they’re [00:22:15] not real, as it were. Was, and that they’re not legally binding.

Neelima Patel: Not legally binding. But you do feel like [00:22:20] it’s really real. Like the experts are very like it’s very real that you refer to each other [00:22:25] as your wife and your husband. Like, you wouldn’t just be like my mate over there or my girlfriend or whatever.

Payman Langroudi: On [00:22:30] this question of who should you marry? Yeah, the I mean, you’re [00:22:35] saying the honeymoon went well. Yeah. The for me and you’ve just been through it. Yeah. [00:22:40] The person you should marry is the one you want to push your wheelchair.

Rhona Eskander: Well, I’ve said this to [00:22:45] you before, so Payman and I have had this argument and let me finish, because now, having [00:22:50] been through so Payman always said like he believes. And we had actually an amazing neuroscientist [00:22:55] on the podcast just before Christmas that like real love is when you can’t sleep. [00:23:00] You’re so anxious, you feel like you do anything.

Payman Langroudi: You’re like, I feel like you educated me a bit.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Thank you. And we [00:23:05] educated him and I said, that’s that’s a trauma bond and that’s you. Actually, that’s your nervous [00:23:10] system telling you in some way something’s not right. Because when you start and you experience that with [00:23:15] Stephen, I feel like the moment you start feeling your nervous system firing, that’s not love. That’s [00:23:20] trauma. Do you see what I mean? Because you’re feeling like something is really being ignited. And like, as you [00:23:25] had as you had said here, the person that pushes your wheelchair like, that’s [00:23:30] definitely my husband. Like, he’s a very. And Buddha even says Buddha. So you [00:23:35] listen to Buddha. Buddha says, when you beat the Buddha says that when you meet the right person, you’ll feel [00:23:40] a sense of calm. You’re not going to feel a sense of stress and anxiety. And that’s the thing. Like the person [00:23:45] that makes you feel calm is the person you should be with the person. And I’m not saying boring because [00:23:50] people often like conflate that. And actually, Esther Perel was the one that said that human [00:23:55] beings really struggle with safety and desire because in itself you can’t have desire with [00:24:00] safety because it’s deemed to be quite boring. And that’s why she works a lot with couples, because [00:24:05] that fiery up and down is like a drug. It’s like having a high and then a low and then a high and [00:24:10] then.

Neelima Patel: A full on chemical imbalance.

Rhona Eskander: In your brain. Yeah, exactly. And you take consumes your whole day and it consumes [00:24:15] your whole, like, thinking process. Yeah. So.

Payman Langroudi: But but then on that point, [00:24:20] you’ve been in a few relationships before. When you think about the ones that were right [00:24:25] or wrong, whatever that question of how do people react [00:24:30] in difficult times? Do you agree that that’s I.

Neelima Patel: Think it’s very [00:24:35] telling.

Payman Langroudi: Key point? Yeah, because life’s full of difficult. I mean, we can all enjoy Ferraris [00:24:40] and private jets. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, anyone. Absolutely.

Neelima Patel: Yeah. [00:24:45] No, no, 100%. I do agree with that.

Payman Langroudi: So then. Okay, so on the honeymoon you enjoyed, but the honeymoon, [00:24:50] I expect was somewhere nice and whatever.

Neelima Patel: Yeah, I was in Jamaica. Had the best.

Payman Langroudi: Time.

Neelima Patel: There. Yeah, it was lovely. Yeah. Um, and then we came [00:24:55] back, moved into the apartments, and then you have, like, your first dinner party when you [00:25:00] meet all the other couples and see who everyone’s been matched up with.

Rhona Eskander: Do you feel that’s when it changed?

Neelima Patel: There [00:25:05] was something like just on that first initial. Just [00:25:10] when we move back to the apartments, like intimacy had stopped and it just was a bit strange and [00:25:15] it was a bit different. And I just felt.

Rhona Eskander: Literally just from the moment you came.

Neelima Patel: Back. Yeah, really, really odd. But it [00:25:20] was obviously really different on honeymoon. I remember coming back and, you know, just feel an energy shift. [00:25:25] And then I thought, maybe it’s just because we moved in and I’ve never lived with a guy before, and maybe I’m being the weird, awkward [00:25:30] one because this is this is alien to me. And then I just asked him, like, is everything all right? Like, you’ve been [00:25:35] a bit. And he was like, yeah, no. Fine. So then obviously you start internalising it and thinking, I’m going insane. Is it [00:25:40] just me? And then I had to. And then. Yeah, at the apartments. That’s when I continued to call him out on it. [00:25:45] And that’s when everything started. The moment I really called him out on it and said, no, I need an answer from you. [00:25:50] Um, you haven’t been the same. That’s when his behaviour really changed. [00:25:55]

Payman Langroudi: This is all on camera.

Rhona Eskander: No, this wasn’t.

Neelima Patel: Seen was we were all at the pub on a Sunday. [00:26:00] That’s where all the arguments used to happen.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Neelima Patel: Off camera, because we’d all go for a drink.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. No, [00:26:05] I didn’t see that bit there. And then. Did you find it? Obviously. Then I saw, [00:26:10] you know, you see the relationship develop. You see how much he was gaslighting you. You see how difficult [00:26:15] it was. At what point did you think, oh my God, I just don’t know if this is going to work. Do [00:26:20] you think you knew deep down from the beginning?

Neelima Patel: I think, I [00:26:25] think when I thought this really like hand this work was when [00:26:30] Paul Brunson had told well said, said like, you know, you’re gaslighting her. But then [00:26:35] in that same breath, he’d also said, you know, I don’t think it’s intentional and people can change bad behaviour. It’s not [00:26:40] a bad person. It’s just it, you know, it’s a good person, a bad behaviour. And then Stephen really had fixed up that next [00:26:45] week we did a 180. We were we were really happy again. So then I think that probably [00:26:50] suckered me back in and made me think, okay, look, he’s learning. He’s willing to change. You know, I obviously liked him. [00:26:55] Um, obviously watching it back, I’m like, you silly girl. Yeah, but yeah, [00:27:00] that’s. Yeah. It’s hard.

Rhona Eskander: So the one thing I knew that you got a lot of shit for which I think was really unfair, [00:27:05] is when people were saying that you were projecting insecurity and that it was your fault. And obviously [00:27:10] there was drama. Julia, Ruth, let me just update you on that. There was this girl that caused a lot of drama. She was like the villain of [00:27:15] the show. I don’t know if she actually was, but that’s the way they labelled her. Who knows? That could have been me. Made in Chelsea. But anyway, [00:27:20] um, she ultimately developed a crush on this guy and [00:27:25] was, like, accusing Nelly. Yeah, it’s all a bit messy. Um, she’s basically accusing [00:27:30] Nelly for being too insecure and that he deserves a strong, empowered woman [00:27:35] and that, like. And obviously, you can see Nelly as a strong, empowered woman. So she was she was really being a pick me girl.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:27:40] a pick me girl.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. So pick me, pick me. Yeah. You know girls that like [00:27:45] another man’s side, that kind of vibe. Yeah. Um, so ultimately. Yeah. [00:27:50] And I think that unfortunately, a lot of people in the public were also like, Nelly, stop being so insecure. [00:27:55] And then I think you had realised as well that you needed to give yourself more self-love and self-compassion. But [00:28:00] I feel like we’ve really been there. Like, you know, when you feel like something’s slipping away from you and [00:28:05] you clutch as hard as you can before it slips. I feel like that’s typical human behaviour, so I think it [00:28:10] wasn’t fair that people didn’t give you the grace. But how was that for you? Because that must have been quite difficult to see [00:28:15] and hear from people.

Neelima Patel: Yeah, I think so. I mean, look, we all have our insecurities and I remember when I got that trolling, [00:28:20] I was a bit like, I didn’t expect that. I’m like, there’s obviously there’s very obviously objectively one [00:28:25] person who’s behaving poorly here. Yeah. And it ain’t me. Yeah. So yeah, I was like, how is this turning around [00:28:30] on me? Um, for the first few days, I was actually getting really frustrated and I thought, you’re all going [00:28:35] to feel so stupid when you all realise I was right. And I think that’s what got me through. It was a couple of hard weeks where I was just [00:28:40] getting trolled a lot. But yeah, I think me knowing I was like, all those people trolling me, you’re gonna eat [00:28:45] your words when you watch the reunion, because you will understand that my insecurity [00:28:50] wasn’t insecurity. It’s called intuition.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Question for you as well. Um, [00:28:55] do you feel that it didn’t show [00:29:00] the right actual situation that had happened? Do you see what I mean? So when the edit was done at that point, do you feel like it wasn’t [00:29:05] reality? And that was done for TV? So they had sort of taken away the reality of what was happening [00:29:10] to keep you on tenterhooks.

Neelima Patel: Yeah, I think there was an aspect of it because like, for example, you know, [00:29:15] the whole thing about me saying, you know, with Julia Ruth that she plotted to take him away. She wanted him for [00:29:20] partner swap. She wanted to stay in the experiment for however long people. Loads of comments were [00:29:25] very much, well, how do we even know that’s happened? Nellie’s just made that out of thin air and no one said anything when I called her [00:29:30] out at the commitment ceremony. It’s because Maeve and Kiera told me. And then obviously Julia Ruth at the commitment ceremony said, no, [00:29:35] no, it wasn’t me. That’s not how it happened. They cut the bit out of Kieran Maeve saying, yes, it did, [00:29:40] yes you did. Like that’s why there was no other arguments. Everyone was like, well, obviously you’ve said it. Two people who were [00:29:45] your friends have called you out on it because they don’t agree with that behaviour. So little things like that get cut out. So [00:29:50] then it becomes a well, who’s right, which I get for entertainment. So I remember you get welfare calls [00:29:55] all the time. Like they are really, really like every single day you get a call. If you’ve got a particularly rough episode, you’ll [00:30:00] get a call in a briefing. You can ask for transcripts as well and stuff. Um, so, like, for some really triggering [00:30:05] episodes, I had, like, you get calls and stuff, but apart from that, like, I remember ringing them going, [00:30:10] are you not having me on? I went, this is ridiculous. I was like, I look like a psycho. Yeah, like, [00:30:15] this isn’t me. And they were like, yeah, fair enough. They’re like, but remember, it is. They’re like, we have to [00:30:20] the basic the drop is going to be even better.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Neelima Patel: So yeah. So I think [00:30:25] that’s what it was.

Rhona Eskander: And what kind of things were people trolling you on?

Neelima Patel: Um, a lot about mostly about [00:30:30] my insecurities and that I need therapy and that I shouldn’t be with anybody until. [00:30:35] Well, don’t we all need therapy? And I have therapy, and you don’t have to be. I don’t agree with the whole. [00:30:40] You have to be fully healed before you meet somebody.

Rhona Eskander: Listen, I’m still in therapy. I mean, we’re all there. We go. [00:30:45]

Neelima Patel: Like, we’re all healing. Like we’re all growing. Yes, I’m if you compare me my mindset to this time [00:30:50] last year, I am a different person. Yeah. Um, there’s been loads of growth. Which maps has really helped me [00:30:55] with. But yeah, I think a lot of the trolling was insecurity That you [00:31:00] need to be healed. You shouldn’t find you should find someone once you’re healed. And then a lot on my nose. Whatever. [00:31:05] It’s wonky, I don’t care.

Rhona Eskander: Oh my gosh. But people, people troll me still all the time about [00:31:10] the way I look.

Neelima Patel: I’m just like, okay. I’m like, thanks for your observation.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, no.

Neelima Patel: I’m too busy to look at your comment because I’m at [00:31:15] work.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. No good. I think you have to have that really thick skin.

Payman Langroudi: And then the there [00:31:20] was a sort of a inflection point when he asked you, how much do you earn?

Neelima Patel: Oh, yes. [00:31:25]

Rhona Eskander: It was that. I didn’t see that.

Neelima Patel: No, that wasn’t it wasn’t filmed. It was on the honeymoon when we were waiting for the [00:31:30] camera crew was setting up the last dinner, so we were having some drinks at the bar, and that’s when I noticed the energy [00:31:35] shift. But then I told myself it wasn’t that. But now I think it probably was.

Payman Langroudi: It came up on Shivani’s pod, which [00:31:40] I listened to and go on. So what happened? He said, how much do you earn?

Neelima Patel: We’ll. Yeah, we’ll just sat [00:31:45] at the bar and then he just kind of said like, oh, like, how much do you earn? And I remember thinking, I don’t really [00:31:50] want to go into that because I can bet it’s going to be more than you like. Do you know [00:31:55] what I mean?

Rhona Eskander: Like, listen, I think, look, I say this to pay and I think, I think this is a conversation [00:32:00] and a topic that should be discussed. A lot of men, [00:32:05] I don’t think will like women outearning them. And to be honest, [00:32:10] this is a bit controversial. I don’t really like myself out earning a man when [00:32:15] I. I didn’t ever pick a partner for money because I didn’t need it. As you know, as [00:32:20] dentists, we don’t need it. But it was important to me that the partner [00:32:25] that I was with displayed ambition and even more so, being a mother, when you have to [00:32:30] take that time out, and even more so when you have an unpredictable life situation.

Payman Langroudi: Ambition. [00:32:35]

Rhona Eskander: No. But listen.

Payman Langroudi: Ambitious.

Rhona Eskander: Like listen life situation, life [00:32:40] situation, cancel him. Life situation. Like when you have a life situation, [00:32:45] for me, it’s really attractive when a man can step into [00:32:50] looking after me and the family. And a lot of people might not appreciate me saying [00:32:55] that a lot of people might be like, oh, don’t, you’re so materialistic. But I think that’s.

Neelima Patel: 100%, because that’s exactly how I feel. [00:33:00] I always say to my friends, they always say, you know, you don’t need to worry about what they earn. And I agree, I don’t because I [00:33:05] can look after myself. I can look after. I can look after, you know what I mean? I can look after families or whatever. But I just [00:33:10] think, yeah, but if I want to have children, I want to have a family. I’m gonna have to take time off work. [00:33:15] I’m self-employed, I don’t have. Yeah, so I couldn’t.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Payman will tell you. I was in that hospital [00:33:20] for two months. I could not even look at anything to do with Chelsea Dental. I could not fathom it. Like [00:33:25] my baby was in an incubator. I was in ICU like I could not, and my husband [00:33:30] stepped in and did everything because he could. And he has the academic ability, [00:33:35] the ambition and the drive to like, look after me. And I think that that is [00:33:40] rare, but that’s also what’s important to me. It might not be important to other people.

Payman Langroudi: How do you feel about that? [00:33:45] So do you feel like your ideal partner would earn the same [00:33:50] as you?

Neelima Patel: More in an ideal world, he would earn more than me. Because then we could have.

Payman Langroudi: More [00:33:55] money.

Neelima Patel: Together. But yeah, I look. I mean, there is no problem. [00:34:00] It just depends, doesn’t it? Like.

Rhona Eskander: But obviously with Stephen it didn’t bother you, right? Because at that point [00:34:05] you.

Neelima Patel: Were like, I’m here for.

Rhona Eskander: The.

Neelima Patel: Love. Yeah, I’m here for the love. And also I’d pretty much sort of in my [00:34:10] head, I’d gathered from.

Rhona Eskander: What he does.

Neelima Patel: People who are earning, [00:34:15] men who are earning more than me aren’t going to be on a reality show.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Neelima Patel: Do you know what I mean? So I knew I kind of knew that going [00:34:20] into it, but I thought, you know what? If he is the perfect guy and he’s still driven, he’s still ambitious. Exactly. So you.

Rhona Eskander: Can still have [00:34:25] ambition.

Neelima Patel: And I can have an intellectual conversation with him that’s not just about like, football or something. [00:34:30] I was like, if he’s a good person, then fine, I don’t like not that I don’t care about the money, but that isn’t going [00:34:35] to be as big of a factor as how I feel about you. Yeah, I think that was when actually I thought, [00:34:40] you know what? I’m going to stop going for also high achievers. I think that’s what my friends would always say. You know, [00:34:45] you are one. How do I say it? I feel you used to filter [00:34:50] men not based on what they would earn, but depending on their job, like if it was going to be miles [00:34:55] apart, then I just know that power dynamic is never going to work. Yeah, like I have to be realistic about it and it [00:35:00] is a controversial subject. But I’m like, if we are worlds apart, how are you ever going to be okay with that? You’re not.

Rhona Eskander: I [00:35:05] don’t think it should be because also men have it that way too. Like you told me, you have some friends that would [00:35:10] find it really difficult being with a woman that would earn more than them. Or you’ve had a friend like [00:35:15] that and they really struggle with that power dynamic, you said. I think it works both ways. Like some [00:35:20] men don’t want to be with women that earn more than them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know those traditional gender [00:35:25] roles, as much as we like to say they don’t exist, they do. They do exist. [00:35:30] Right. Yeah. And and so but the question is what [00:35:35] happened? So you figured out or you told them how much you earned.

Neelima Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:35:40] then what you felt you felt like he felt he was insecure about it.

Neelima Patel: Well, yeah. Because then I was like, well, [00:35:45] in my head I was like, well, I’ve just told you, you tell me. Then I was like, well, what do you earn? And then it was it was [00:35:50] again. It was still a good salary, but it I obviously I think I earned like three, 2 or 3 times more than [00:35:55] him. So then I remember thinking and then he just got really quiet. And I remember just thinking, oh hell, [00:36:00] I shouldn’t have done that. But it was it was the best week we had. Like, we had such a lovely week. We’d [00:36:05] like got to know each other. And I just thought.

Rhona Eskander: If that’s going to be the.

Neelima Patel: Moment.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, no, but it’s a funny [00:36:10] thing, man, because I know guys who are the other way round, you know, they go they go for rich girls. And [00:36:15] so.

Rhona Eskander: If.

Payman Langroudi: If, if he was like, oh great, you earn three times what I earn, I’d be kind of worried [00:36:20] about that too.

[Transition]: Yeah. There’s no right answer, isn’t that. Yeah.

Neelima Patel: Just want someone that’s not [00:36:25] that doesn’t even care. Don’t don’t ask me.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. I mean listen, I always said like again. And it’s [00:36:30] funny because I just came back from Dubai as well with my partner. And my partner has always been so supportive [00:36:35] of everything that I’ve ever done and career wise. But my best friend that lives in her in [00:36:40] Dubai, she pretty much gave up her career in her 20s because her husband really likes [00:36:45] the traditional roles and now an Arab. No, he’s not actually, he’s like a north London [00:36:50] boy from London. But they moved. They did expat life basically. Um, in, in, [00:36:55] in, um, you know, around the world. And I think now that the kids are older because they had kids like, [00:37:00] I don’t know, when she was like 30, she now wants to move into that, like, oh, I want a career. [00:37:05] But you can see that it makes him nervous. He’s like, you don’t need to work. You don’t need to work. Do you know what I mean? He’s like, [00:37:10] you know, you do what you do best, which is look after the kids, you know, and to be honest [00:37:15] with you, you know, like, it works for some people. I guess it all depends on that. And I find it [00:37:20] interesting that the experts or the matchmaker, whoever it is, doesn’t have that conversation, because [00:37:25] I think that’s a really important part of matchmaking someone long term, I really do. I think [00:37:30] that money conversation has to be had.

Neelima Patel: Yeah. Well, I think what was hard as well, I think he’d sort of said he was an investment [00:37:35] banking kind of it. Everyone sort of thought he was.

Rhona Eskander: A finance.

Neelima Patel: Bro. Yeah. And he wasn’t.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah [00:37:40] yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Neelima Patel: So I think like everyone got a bit bamboozled. Yeah I think everyone was like oh right. [00:37:45] Okay.

Rhona Eskander: I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. Because maybe you had also mentioned during your interviews that you [00:37:50] wanted to be with someone that was, you know.

Neelima Patel: That was we spoke about this. Yeah. With when I spoke to the like, [00:37:55] um, the psychiatrists and stuff, she’s like, what do you want in a man? I was like, I want someone ambitious, driven. Yes, fine. They [00:38:00] don’t have to earn as much as me, but just someone who still has a decent job, a [00:38:05] decent job, salary. I was like, you can’t. The gap can’t be that big between us. Otherwise it would just be a bit weird. Yeah, [00:38:10] but then I also said I, you know, I’m aware that men who go on reality TV shows wouldn’t tend [00:38:15] to.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So the whole thing is ten weeks, right? Yeah. [00:38:20] And what, as the show progressed, do you feel like more and more [00:38:25] his true colours started to come out?

Neelima Patel: Yeah. To be honest, I was surprised that he didn’t. He couldn’t last longer [00:38:30] than. Well he kicked off quite early on.

Rhona Eskander: When do you say what about after two weeks. [00:38:35] Three weeks?

Neelima Patel: Yeah, 2 or 3 weeks. I think that’s when it started sort of going wrong. Um, but [00:38:40] yeah, I just think, I mean, I would say all the time and say like he hates me. Or I [00:38:45] know deep down that this guy doesn’t like me. Um, but it got to a point where I was like, [00:38:50] he’s venomous. And I would say to him, I was like, there’s venom behind what you’re saying and what you’re doing. And then [00:38:55] it was hard because then I’d get some of the guys like, nah, he doesn’t mean it. He doesn’t, you know, he doesn’t mean to [00:39:00] say it like that. Then he would say, no, I didn’t mean it like that. And then you kind of think, well, am I? Am I seeing [00:39:05] these things? Obviously some of these things I’ve now watched back and I’m like, no, there was so much venom there. [00:39:10] But you don’t I don’t even like, for example, I think the.

Rhona Eskander: Do you think that’s his character? Do you know what I mean? Like, I feel like [00:39:15] it’s not you. I feel like he would have been venomous. I feel like he’s been venomous in the past. I don’t think you’re the first.

Neelima Patel: I think he’s venomous [00:39:20] to a woman he doesn’t like or. Or some. I think he’s venomous to somebody who holds up a mirror. He [00:39:25] doesn’t like the reflection. So unfortunately, I would. I would hold it up constantly. [00:39:30] Yes. It took me a while to, like, have the courage to really stand up for myself, but I would question things along the way. [00:39:35] I think a lot of people were saying, you know, why did the experts allow this to go on [00:39:40] for so long? They’ve kicked out other couples when it’s been too toxic in the past. Um, like on the [00:39:45] on mafs, UK. But I think the reason they probably didn’t was because, yes, Steven’s behaviour [00:39:50] was manipulative and it was toxic, but I think because I was questioning it throughout, I think [00:39:55] they probably saw that she’s got room for growth. Um, so.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, you made some [00:40:00] amazing girlfriends though as well. And the people that were depicted as villains, were [00:40:05] they actually villains?

Neelima Patel: Who would you say was depicted a villain?

Rhona Eskander: I’d say Sarah and Julia. [00:40:10] Ruth and I actually felt really sorry for Sarah, if I’m honest with you. Which, again, I thought was just such a terrible mismatch. [00:40:15] I was like, how did they get it so wrong?

Payman Langroudi: Explain, explain to someone who doesn’t know what the hell’s going on.

Rhona Eskander: So. [00:40:20] So ultimately, um, Sarah was another character, and she’d always gone for, like, the bad [00:40:25] boy with tattoos, like, a very type of aesthetic. And she was like, I’m really ready to meet the nicest [00:40:30] guy in the world. But when I tell you, they went for the most polar opposite of her physical type [00:40:35] and they kind of stitched her up. So people thought because he was the nicest guy in the world, [00:40:40] that she was a bitch because she didn’t like him. But it was like, you can’t go for someone. You can’t match [00:40:45] up with someone that’s so physically opposite of what she would go for, and then expect her to fall [00:40:50] in love. Do you know what I mean? It’d be like you saying like, oh, I want a really nice lady, but then going so opposite. [00:40:55] And I think it was really me because she got really trolled and people were like, you’re [00:41:00] awful, you should die. Like it was awful. The comments I saw it like, he’s the nicest guy. He’s [00:41:05] so nice. But if you’re not attracted to him, you’re attracted to him. It’s end of story. Do you know what I mean?

Neelima Patel: Yeah. See, Sarah’s actually a really, [00:41:10] really nice girl. Like, really, really nice girl. So that was really unfair.

Rhona Eskander: Julia. Ruth.

Neelima Patel: Julie. [00:41:15] Ruth. Julia. Ruth. Do you know what I mean? She came in. I mean, I hope she’s [00:41:20] done some growth from it. Um.

Rhona Eskander: Clearly not. She’s been with, like, three of the men on the show.

Neelima Patel: Yeah, [00:41:25] I mean, what.

Rhona Eskander: They were partnered up for someone else pick me.

[Transition]: Yeah. [00:41:30]

Neelima Patel: So the thing is, if you if you and your husband don’t want to be together, you leave the experiment together, [00:41:35] and that’s it. Your time’s done. It’s not like a wife swap. It’s not like a Love island.

Rhona Eskander: Oh, I can just go in.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, so, yeah, [00:41:40] it’s setting you up for that situation that. Let’s say this guy wasn’t into you and [00:41:45] he wanted to get out. But if he did get out, he wouldn’t be on the show any longer. So then [00:41:50] that’s the show makes it that people will lie. And if I mean, [00:41:55] you know, at the end of the day, someone who’s being on a a show wants to stay on the [00:42:00] show. Yeah. Is that right?

Neelima Patel: To an extent, I think there’s a point where you’re just like, there’s no show that [00:42:05] can keep me here in this hellhole.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, yeah.

Neelima Patel: Do you know what I mean? But sometimes you’ve just. I mean, [00:42:10] look, people go on there. Definitely.

Rhona Eskander: So there was. I mean, listen, who else? And. Oh, I forgot her name. [00:42:15] Now, the one that was with Ashley Grace. Yeah, she also was villainized as well.

Neelima Patel: I really [00:42:20] like Grace. I have so much time for Grace. I think she’s she’s really, really nice. I think the edit was quite. [00:42:25]

Rhona Eskander: Basically it was.

Neelima Patel: Really interesting.

Rhona Eskander: Because she’s again, poor matchmaking. This is what I think super duper [00:42:30] feminist like hardcore.

Neelima Patel: Like she would do anything for a woman. She would walk through fire to [00:42:35] help out another woman. She really.

Rhona Eskander: Would. But they matched up with quite a traditional guy. Do you see what I mean? [00:42:40] You know, like. So she made him, like, read books on feminism and like, there was so much personality clash [00:42:45] and was like, I don’t think either of.

Payman Langroudi: Them makes for good TV.

Rhona Eskander: But that’s why I’m saying, like, you know, that’s [00:42:50] why I worry about the intentions of these reality TV shows. Like, is the intentions pure [00:42:55] because you have people that I think a lot of them that are going into the experiment truly wanting to find [00:43:00] happiness. And you have a group of experts that really, [00:43:05] you know, are are experts in their name. It says that they have to be super professional [00:43:10] and you’re just doing you can even see Payman not watch the show. And he’s like horrendous. How [00:43:15] could they be matching these people? You know, someone you’re not physically attracted to, someone that [00:43:20] has completely different values to you? Do you know what I mean?

Neelima Patel: Like it’s not. You’ve got to remember like I don’t we still again, [00:43:25] we still don’t know. But we we all have a little bit of a theory that they must have some couples that are [00:43:30] in there obviously for entertainment purposes, like they must know that Sarah and Dean were never going to work. [00:43:35] Do you know what I mean? But then I think they obviously put couples in there that they they do think could work.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:43:40]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Neelima Patel: So people actually were like, I think they put Nelly and Steven in there as a couple that could actually work.

Rhona Eskander: Who worked [00:43:45] in the end?

Neelima Patel: Um, Abby and John.

Rhona Eskander: That’s it. I always knew. I feel I feel.

Neelima Patel: Like. [00:43:50]

Rhona Eskander: I feel like how many couples are there?

Neelima Patel: 11.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, one out of 11, you [00:43:55] know, stayed married.

Neelima Patel: Yeah. They’re moving in together this weekend.

Payman Langroudi: I still [00:44:00] think it’s amazing. It’s amazing.

Neelima Patel: I mean, don’t get me wrong.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an amazing thing that one couple, you know.

Neelima Patel: Like [00:44:05] they’ve made, like, love is blind.

Rhona Eskander: Sometimes you get, like, up to two. But the American.

Neelima Patel: One, one of them’s had a baby.

Rhona Eskander: Really? [00:44:10]

Neelima Patel: Yeah. And then I met Kieran and Meg recently when I went to Sydney. There in Sydney at the same time. So we all met up. [00:44:15]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Neelima Patel: They’re really in love.

Rhona Eskander: Really in love? Yeah. They’ve all. But I feel like. Yeah, that you [00:44:20] could tell that that was really real. Mhm. Um, okay. So my question for you as well is, [00:44:25] is that when you, you said you were in a hellhole and it was done. How. Let’s [00:44:30] talk through that whole incident. When your friend told you that he was on a dating app.

Neelima Patel: My [00:44:35] favourite part?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Go on. I bet you’ve been asked about this a million times.

Neelima Patel: So we’d come for homestays. [00:44:40] Um. And that’s when your partner, you basically go to each other’s homes for like a number of nights, [00:44:45] meet family, etc..

Rhona Eskander: You basically hate him. Be honest.

Neelima Patel: Yeah. My brother is not [00:44:50] a fan. Yeah, you can see his comments on the videos. I get like 3000 likes. Yeah, he’s [00:44:55] so funny. But yeah, my family, look, my family and friends really don’t like my ex-husband. But, um, [00:45:00] yeah, so we go for homestays and then. But Steven decided not to come. I [00:45:05] didn’t really give a reason. And at this point, look, we I think we pretty much knew it wasn’t gonna, wasn’t going to be [00:45:10] working, but also the experiments still going on. And also you talk we spoke about, [00:45:15] you know, how we’ll always remain friends at this point if things don’t happen or whatever, but it’s like just come [00:45:20] to I think the reason I wanted him to come to Manchester was just to prove to be like, could you even do that as a [00:45:25] friend? And the answer is no. So I think I just needed that sort of confirmation. But anyway, he he didn’t [00:45:30] come. He went and met up with his, um, ex-girlfriend that he’d ghosted before the show. [00:45:35] And then he came to Manchester. They filmed, like a conversation [00:45:40] between him and I, just to, I guess, end things. Um. Well, well, [00:45:45] they filmed a conversation between him and I. I think it was more for me to kind [00:45:50] of discuss where I was at, but also, yeah, pretty much to end things. But we were still technically [00:45:55] together at this point. You know, he walked in like, I’ve still got my ring on. I’m a one woman man. And then [00:46:00] my friend at work had been on hinge and had matched him that day.

Neelima Patel: Um, [00:46:05] and so she so we, me and Steven went to film, like at 11:00 in the morning or something. [00:46:10] I think at half ten, I was just getting my hair and makeup done well, doing my hair and makeup. And the producer [00:46:15] rang me, said, we’ve had to push the scene back to four. And in my head I was thinking, oh, is there like an issue with trains or something? I just thought, [00:46:20] whatever. I didn’t think much of it, but it’s because Lucy got. Lucy was one of my emergency contacts, so had the [00:46:25] production numbers. She I didn’t have my phone at this point. I was on home stay, so I don’t have my phone for [00:46:30] the number of weeks that I’m in the experiment. So I still don’t have it. Um, but Lucy rang the producer and [00:46:35] she was like, I have just found Stephen on Hinge. I need to tell Nelly so I know they’re having a conversation, like, [00:46:40] can I ring Nelly? Can I speak to her? And the producer was like, no, you’re going to have to come into the scene. So she had two [00:46:45] veneer patients that day, and she came home straight after that. Like that’s why she had no makeup on. They didn’t even let her [00:46:50] in the apartment to brush her hair like she had a tracksuit, like threadbare socks. We always laugh about it. Yeah. And then [00:46:55] she was like, yeah, I had no makeup on and was finished from work, and I had to then come [00:47:00] for Stephen.

Payman Langroudi: Well, they pulled her into the show there and then.

Neelima Patel: Into the scene. They were like, when you come home, [00:47:05] wow. They literally mic drop outside the apartment. And then I didn’t know she was going to be [00:47:10] in the scene. So I was just chatting to Stephen. I think we’ll probably be talking about how the relationship’s been. And [00:47:15] then she just walks in and I thought at first I thought, oh, she’s here to give him a piece of her mind, because the night [00:47:20] before, we’d filmed a scene where I basically spoke to Lucy about the whole relationship and how he how [00:47:25] he’d been, and I thought, oh, she’s coming here to give him an earful. But I didn’t expect that news. Yeah, [00:47:30] that’s a great entertainment.

Payman Langroudi: On on air. She tells you that this has happened.

Neelima Patel: She was like, I’m [00:47:35] so sorry. She was like, because she said she basically comes from. And she’s like, you know, do you think it’s appropriate [00:47:40] for a married man to be on a dating website? And he’s like, what dating website? And she’s like, and I turned around and I was [00:47:45] like, what? And she was like, I’m really sorry I had to do this. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Denied it.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Lol. I mean, his photos [00:47:50] there. He’s like, no, not me.

Neelima Patel: It’s not me. And then Lucy’s like it’s verified.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah [00:47:55] yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Cheater. I literally it was.

Neelima Patel: Like it wasn’t me.

Rhona Eskander: Did he still [00:48:00] continue to deny it after that?

Neelima Patel: Oh yeah. He denied it right up until, you know, the commitment [00:48:05] ceremony. But the reunion commitment ceremony.

Rhona Eskander: I actually didn’t watch it in the end. I think I got back to work at that point. [00:48:10] But tell me what happened.

Neelima Patel: Yeah. Um, did you watch a reunion?

Rhona Eskander: No, it’s still on my list.

Neelima Patel: It’s. [00:48:15] That’s my favourite episode.

Rhona Eskander: Okay. Tell me.

Neelima Patel: Um, but the reunion dinner parties where I basically, [00:48:20] like, come from. And then the commitment ceremony. I remember sitting there on the [00:48:25] couch and we were having a break, and I just turned around to him and went. Seeing as you’re being honest and you’re trying to be a new person, [00:48:30] are you going to finally admit to the hinge thing? And he was like, no. And I said, Steven, you don’t understand [00:48:35] what you’re doing. I went, it’s verified. It was like, it’s not just it’s, you know, matching [00:48:40] with your face. So you’re now questioning the integrity of a safety feature on $1 billion app [00:48:45] was like, do you understand what you’re doing and the implications this will have? I mean, there probably [00:48:50] would have been none, but I was like, hinge is going to have to come out and say a statement. Yeah. And he was like, and I was like, [00:48:55] so you should admit it my friend. And then it worked. Yeah, I was bluffing. I was like, you really need to say [00:49:00] something. But I put on my big girl pants. I was like, listen. And then I had Beck next to me going in, like, me [00:49:05] and her were going in like Rottweilers, like you need to say it. I was like, look, stop denying it. It’s embarrassing. And [00:49:10] then finally he said it. And then the producers had picked up on it. So they ran over to us. They’re [00:49:15] like, stop. This conversation needs to stop because obviously they want it on the cameras. And then we were next to be called up on the couch. [00:49:20] So then that’s when I had it out again with him.

Rhona Eskander: And did he ever take any accountability and [00:49:25] apologise to you?

Neelima Patel: He’s said many apologies, [00:49:30] but they’ve not. I mean, I said this at the reunion. I was like, this isn’t genuine. You’re only saying this because the [00:49:35] cameras are here and the you know, everyone’s.

Rhona Eskander: Never contacted you off camera.

Neelima Patel: He contacted me off camera [00:49:40] when his ex-girlfriend came out and did a whole TikTok series about how she was dating him, and then he ghosted her on the wedding [00:49:45] day and met up with her and.

Rhona Eskander: Never told her that she was going. He was going on the show?

Neelima Patel: No, he messaged her on [00:49:50] the wedding morning saying, um, I’ll speak to you later. I’m off at work now. And then he had a like, [00:49:55] we all got burner phones, but but he contacted her throughout the show when things [00:50:00] weren’t going well between us. And she’s posted all this proof on TikTok.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Wow. That’s crazy.

Payman Langroudi: He goes [00:50:05] to on the wedding day just before coming on the show.

Neelima Patel: Yeah, like on the wedding morning.

Rhona Eskander: So you [00:50:10] say to me when she says it’s rough out there, she means it’s rough out there.

Neelima Patel: I’m like, who’s got the. I was [00:50:15] like, could you be bothered? I couldn’t keep up with the lying. I’d be. I wouldn’t be able to remember.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. So [00:50:20] my question is as well, did you find the experience overall traumatic [00:50:25] or extremely enlightening?

Neelima Patel: I think both I think both [00:50:30] can, I guess, co-exist. You know what I actually had like the trauma from it is. Yeah, it was [00:50:35] it was pretty bad the way I was treated. And I think it.

Rhona Eskander: Was your self-confidence. Really low, extremely low. [00:50:40]

Neelima Patel: But then I had the girls that I kept picking me up, but I did. My confidence was at an all time low. Um, [00:50:45] but then in the same breath, I’ve had so much [00:50:50] growth. Like, my confidence has now never been as as high as it is. Is that the right word? Has [00:50:55] never been as. Yeah. I’ve never been as confident in my life.

Rhona Eskander: So you feel like it gave you a real opportunity [00:51:00] to reflect on what you want from men who you want to pick as a partner, things like that.

Neelima Patel: Yeah, [00:51:05] like I look at men differently now. Like before, I would think I want these things. And now I look at a man and I think, [00:51:10] well, would he be kind? Yeah. Would he be kind? Would he be honest? Would he make would he give me [00:51:15] space to be emotionally vulnerable? And you know, these are things I didn’t really know.

Rhona Eskander: But we don’t. And [00:51:20] I think, I think.

Neelima Patel: This.

Rhona Eskander: Is the problem. Like what I get really upset about when I and this is before [00:51:25] I did the work as well. When you ask someone who they would like describe as their ideal person, [00:51:30] they never list characteristics that matter. Honest kindness, [00:51:35] ambition, no, they’ll list all the superficial things.

Neelima Patel: Those are my. That’s what [00:51:40] I talk about.

Rhona Eskander: They’ll say someone’s got money. Someone that, like, has got a certain aesthetic [00:51:45] build whatever, whatever, whatever.

Neelima Patel: Likes to work out, keep fit.

Rhona Eskander: Plays tennis. Like whatever [00:51:50] floats your boat. But you’ll never hear them say things like kindness cares about their family, [00:51:55] like integrity, like all of this stuff. And yeah, it happens all the time. And I [00:52:00] talk to my friend who’s a psychotherapist, and I feel like until you’ve done the work on yourself and gone [00:52:05] to therapy, you recognise and this is what I say to you, you know, when the going gets tough, [00:52:10] like I had in my own experience, all the superficial shit goes out the window. [00:52:15] Like you said, you get cancer, you end up in a wheelchair. Your baby is not well. Whatever. Whatever. Those [00:52:20] are the things you want people to really be there for you, you know, not the people. And at the end of [00:52:25] the day, even as a woman in dentistry, at any point our careers could start going down as well. [00:52:30] Do you know what I mean? It’s that person to pick you up and hold you when they can. So I do think [00:52:35] I think it’s it’s tough times out there. And I think it’s really important. Like, [00:52:40] don’t get me wrong, I think men need to fix up and we’re not going to blame women on the men loneliness [00:52:45] pandemic because I think people have been talking about that quite a lot, saying it’s loneliness. Yeah. So ultimately [00:52:50] it’s become a big thing where ultimately a lot of men, particularly the ones that subscribe [00:52:55] to the Andrew Tate ideology and read Red pill, you know, like Red pill, they’re [00:53:00] basically saying that women are to blame for the men loneliness pandemic. And that’s because [00:53:05] women are demanding too much of what they want from men. But women aren’t to be blamed [00:53:10] because in a way, women are also saying, hang on a second, you’ve told us [00:53:15] for decades that we need to do X, Y, and Z like us. As women have elevated, we fixed up. You [00:53:20] should fix up if you want us to be. If you want us to choose. There’s a guy called, um, Scott [00:53:25] Galloway. You know him? I’m sure. Right.

Payman Langroudi: Prof.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Prof. Galloway. And they.

Payman Langroudi: Before you go. What is the men? [00:53:30] Loneliness. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So basically, because so many men aren’t in relationships, can’t have a relationship. [00:53:35]

Neelima Patel: Choosing to be single.

Rhona Eskander: Women are choosing to be single. And they’re like, they should be choosing [00:53:40] to be in relationships. And they’re like, sorry if you’re not going to add value to my life. And also there was a newspaper [00:53:45] article or a Vogue magazine article, and the Vogue magazine article said it’s officially [00:53:50] embarrassing to have a boyfriend. Yeah. And the premise? And everyone went mad for it. So it’s really [00:53:55] polarising with men and women. And basically the article was stating that even [00:54:00] if you have a partner, you don’t show your partner online because in some way it’s [00:54:05] frowned upon to be like, hey, I’m in a relationship, or hey, I’ve got a man. It’s a bit cringe, like people know that. [00:54:10] And also some people feel that they’re never even sure if the relationship’s going to last, so they don’t post [00:54:15] them online. There’s all these different things that ultimately women are kind of like, you know what? I’m so proud of my friends in my [00:54:20] life. That’s what I show. I don’t really show men, you know? And whilst I [00:54:25] understand it, I don’t think we’re moving anywhere closer to people finding ultimate happiness. [00:54:30] I do think women, women can be happier single because that’s the premise of it. [00:54:35] But I don’t think we’re moving towards. And I do think when you look at it, which again, a [00:54:40] lot of people don’t question. And again, Prof. Galloway talks about this. Most women, [00:54:45] based on their superficial criteria job height, build, blah, blah, blah, [00:54:50] will actually end up choosing the 2% of men on the [00:54:55] dating app. They’ll get rid of the 98%, and within that 98%, you might have [00:55:00] a guy that’s super good looking, but he’s not over six foot. You might have the guy that is like really [00:55:05] kind, has a good job, but like, I don’t know, doesn’t go to the gym whatever. Yeah. [00:55:10] And he’s saying that the fact is, is that then you’ve got 98% of women fighting [00:55:15] for that 2%, and that 2% of guy might not even be the right kind of guy for you. And [00:55:20] I get that argument. I have to say, I do get that argument.

Payman Langroudi: But listen, you choose to be single, [00:55:25] then it’s not surprising that you can’t find a husband.

Neelima Patel: It’s [00:55:30] the men that are complaining.

Rhona Eskander: It’s the men complaining.

Neelima Patel: Listen, women. I’m very happy. Single. I’ve never been happier. And I [00:55:35] always say now. Like I would never, ever be with somebody that disrupts the peace that I bring myself because I’m having a [00:55:40] really good time.

Rhona Eskander: Have you been single since? Yeah, completely. Have you started dating again or not?

Neelima Patel: Not at all.

Rhona Eskander: You [00:55:45] just felt like you needed to process and focus on.

Neelima Patel: You know what? Not even that. I was [00:55:50] coming out of it. I was like, yeah, I have been in that sort of focus on me mood, but I just. I have no interest. [00:55:55] Yeah, just not currently. I don’t know, I just don’t have an interest. Although during winter I [00:56:00] was like, oh, I guess it would be nice to have a cuddle. But then I got over that within five minutes I was like, whatever, I’m over it.

Rhona Eskander: And do [00:56:05] you feel so now you have a very clear understanding of [00:56:10] where you want to be, right? Yeah. And you have a clear understanding of the kind of guy you want to be with. And I guess you’re [00:56:15] like, I’m not going to compromise on any of that.

Neelima Patel: Yeah. Like, I’ve been in awful relationships. I’ve been where, [00:56:20] you know, I’ve been with people that have made me really sad, and I never want to be in that position again. Um, [00:56:25] so I’m very much like, I love the life I’ve built. I love how I live my life. I’m very happy [00:56:30] at the moment. If someone can fit into that, great. But like and I do. I’m not saying, you know, someone is. [00:56:35] Someone ruins my peace. It’s over. Like, I completely appreciate. It’s normal. Relationships need [00:56:40] work. You know, it’s not going to always be plain sailing. But if there is a pattern of it’s more bad than [00:56:45] good, like, I just. I don’t want it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, you have to be careful with the words. Yeah, because compromise [00:56:50] is the whole of marriage is compromise. Yeah. Um. And I’m so happy. I guess you’re saying [00:56:55] you don’t want a toxic. You don’t want compromise on that?

Neelima Patel: Well, I lost myself in that relationship.

Rhona Eskander: I’ve been there. He really reminded [00:57:00] me of my ex-boyfriend, where I really lost myself. And I was so enamoured with him for all [00:57:05] the superficial reasons. Enamoured, and in the end he was a gaslighter, a narcissist. Pulled [00:57:10] the floor. And then because they do that, like as you said, like after the honeymoon. For me it was three months. I was like, [00:57:15] but what have I done? Because I don’t understand what’s changed. Like just overnight, you know, because then you start questioning yourself and [00:57:20] you do everything wasn’t going to the places that I used to love going, didn’t speak to my friends, was not living [00:57:25] the life I wanted to live, and it’s just not worth it in the end, you know, especially if you have a life that’s rich and full. [00:57:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, you told me before you got here, we were we were talking and Nelly was saying, she [00:57:35] gets recognised in the street. Yeah. And you know how I feel about that. I [00:57:40] find that very vulnerable. I don’t want to be recognised. I don’t want to be. I don’t [00:57:45] want people to know where I’m going. I just feel that’s weird. Yeah, but you always told [00:57:50] me you like it when that happens. But I’m quite interested in the question of now that everyone [00:57:55] knows exactly what you’re like. Does that make you feel vulnerable?

Neelima Patel: No.

Payman Langroudi: Because is [00:58:00] it empowering?

Neelima Patel: Yeah, it’s empowering because I back myself. I’m really happy with who I am. So I’m like, I’m. Yeah, [00:58:05] it honestly, it doesn’t really bother me. Take it or leave it.

Rhona Eskander: All right. Question though for [00:58:10] you. So obviously you’ve gone back to being a full time dentist. Has this made you feel like you’d rather go into [00:58:15] a different career path being on TV or you’re like, no, I’m happy being a dentist. I was in the experiment. [00:58:20] Cool.

Neelima Patel: I would love for a way to intertwine them both, but I don’t know [00:58:25] how that could work.

Rhona Eskander: You can do that. I’ve been doing it.

Neelima Patel: I know, that’s what I mean. I would love to do that. Like, I actually [00:58:30] really enjoy. Yes, it was traumatic at some times, but I actually really enjoyed the TV side of stuff. [00:58:35] Like I find it really interesting. I, I love, you know, talk. I don’t know, [00:58:40] I would love to be able to find a way to do both.

Rhona Eskander: I think you will. I think you will.

Neelima Patel: If I could, yeah, that would be my ideal. [00:58:45] Like if I could do dentistry and or just even do how I did, like blocks, blocks of dentistry and blocks [00:58:50] of this kind of stuff. I would love that. Or, you know, I would love a way to intertwine [00:58:55] them both, but I would never I would work so hard to be a dentist. Obviously, you know how hard it is. I would never get rid of that. [00:59:00]

Rhona Eskander: I find it interesting because I think there’s been a real wave and social media now where [00:59:05] so many doctors, not necessarily dentists, but so many doctors, are literally leaving [00:59:10] being a doctor to become a full time content creator. And I don’t judge it at all. [00:59:15] But I’m like it is. I find it hard to resonate with because I’m like, you studied 6 [00:59:20] or 7 years to become a doctor and whilst we know the NHS is broken [00:59:25] and whilst we know that it’s completely burns them out, it is interesting [00:59:30] to see this transition of these doctors being like, do you know what? I’m not actually going to practice medicine. I’m going to talk to you about [00:59:35] skincare products instead, you know, and they can make a more lucrative career about it. Yeah, but as Nelly was saying. [00:59:40]

Neelima Patel: It’s hard to make that good money from.

Rhona Eskander: It. But as Nelly was just saying, like, I honestly, you’re gonna [00:59:45] think I’m really weird for saying this. I honestly feel so happy when I’m doing [00:59:50] dentistry. I’m going to tell you that.

Payman Langroudi: Why not? Why not?

Rhona Eskander: I could not imagine doing [00:59:55] anything else but dentistry. And actually, when I’m treating the patient like, forget the complaints, [01:00:00] forget the patient management. Forget like running a practice when I’m actually in there [01:00:05] physically doing the dentistry, I feel like it’s actually my time off in my head because [01:00:10] I’m actually so focussed on what I’m doing. It’s almost like being in an art studio or being a painter, by [01:00:15] the way. That’s when I switch off.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so important for people to have a career for that reason, [01:00:20] right? You know.

Rhona Eskander: What do you mean.

Payman Langroudi: Master your art, right?

Rhona Eskander: And because you didn’t enjoy it, you [01:00:25] told me you enjoyed.

Payman Langroudi: I used to enjoy it, I enjoy it, but.

Rhona Eskander: But why did you leave?

Payman Langroudi: You know, the [01:00:30] opportunities changed. But my point is this. Your friend in Dubai, who doesn’t [01:00:35] have a career and is sitting at home looking after the kids, is [01:00:40] missing a really important cornerstone of life. It’s not only, of course, I [01:00:45] understand what you’re saying about worst case scenario. She can feed her children or whatever. Yeah, by [01:00:50] having a career. Yeah, of course you understand that. But it’s much more than that. [01:00:55] Yeah. Having a career is an important part of being someone. And then when you become [01:01:00] a mother, I’ve noticed my wife used to say going to work was a break. Going [01:01:05] to break from the children, you know, which is which is something that doesn’t get talked about enough either. [01:01:10] You know, that, you know, as a as a guy, you haven’t got the constant kid pressure, [01:01:15] but as a mother, you do. And so you need an identity apart from mother, [01:01:20] you know. And so your identity as principal, business owner, you [01:01:25] know, dentist, social media star, podcaster, these [01:01:30] identities feed you, right?

Rhona Eskander: No, I think listen, I think your job gives you a lot of self [01:01:35] confidence. And I said that to my husband, like, when I got back to work, I was like, dentistry gives [01:01:40] me so much confidence because. And I’m sure you get the same, especially when you do the kind of work we’re doing where you’re [01:01:45] actually changing people’s smiles. And listen, we’ve discussed this at length. This is why we started Mind [01:01:50] Movers. It has one of the highest suicide rates of any profession dentistry. And you know, [01:01:55] the litigation, the governing body is like, come on, we live with that sort of thunderstorm on [01:02:00] our heads every single day. And it’s really sad that they’ve created that [01:02:05] system for us because honestly, I feel like people would enjoy dentistry much more if [01:02:10] we felt like we had people on our side, you know what I mean? Protecting us. Or if we felt like we could be protected as depression. [01:02:15]

Neelima Patel: It’s scary.

Payman Langroudi: You talk to your patients, okay? The ones who do well, none of them have [01:02:20] an easy life. So, you know, this is dentistry’s problems come around with this [01:02:25] litigation issue. Yeah, but, you know, you’ve got patients doing really well. You’ve got [01:02:30] patients doing really well. Who’s got an easy life, man? No one’s got an easy life who’s doing something worthwhile. [01:02:35] Life is hard, you know, like, I know.

Rhona Eskander: I know, like I’ve [01:02:40] spent three hours crying this morning, so, like, you know, life [01:02:45] is tough.

Payman Langroudi: What I’m saying is it depends on how you frame it. Yeah, if you like. I’ve got all the [01:02:50] people. Kids at school. They’re parents of my kids friends. They’re all [01:02:55] banker types here. Listen. Like your husband. You could frame that as he sits in a chair and pushes a [01:03:00] button. Yeah, you could say that’s what it is. Yeah, but when pushing that button could mean, like, make or [01:03:05] break your career, you know, that decision and and playing around with other people’s [01:03:10] millions and, you know, like a couple of bad years and you’re out and you know that that [01:03:15] it’s much more pressurised than, oh, this patient might give me a complaint. Yeah. But [01:03:20] in our world, we.

Rhona Eskander: Think I think it’s different. Nelly will agree with me because I know she agrees, like it’s the thought that a patient [01:03:25] has the control to ruin your entire career that you’ve worked eight years for. And our our skill isn’t [01:03:30] necessarily transferable. It’s not like I could suddenly be like, you know what? I’m gonna be a finance girl now. Do you know what I mean? [01:03:35] Like, you train to be a dentist so specialised. And the fact that one patient can [01:03:40] have their, like, whole, like, threaten your entire career, it’s something that’s always been on the heads of all of us, [01:03:45] you know. And that’s the problem.

Payman Langroudi: The particular issue with dentistry, right? Yeah. If you’re a corporate [01:03:50] lawyer. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I’ve got my my lawyer. My [01:03:55] parents lawyer is so not scared of anything. Like he was like, yeah, my old job had taken me to like, [01:04:00] the legal board because I feel like also lawyers know how to argue like they know their argument, so they’re in a different [01:04:05] sort of thing. Nelly. So tell me as well. I’m so happy to hear you’ve been on this, like, journey of [01:04:10] self-love and you’ve been, you know, really at peace with the [01:04:15] situation that happened on MAFs. Would you do anything differently if you had a chance?

Neelima Patel: I [01:04:20] would stand up for myself more, and [01:04:25] I wouldn’t because I think, yeah, [01:04:30] I would stand up for myself more and I’d probably leave a little bit earlier than I did. Yeah, [01:04:35] yeah, I think so. I think I think, you know. Yeah, it’s [01:04:40] hard. I think there’s a lot the thing is, part of me want to say, no, I wouldn’t do anything differently because then would I have had that [01:04:45] growth. Do you know what I mean? Um. Yeah, [01:04:50] I think just stand up for myself [01:04:55] a little bit more and actually believe in myself more. I think what was really hard when watching it back was comparing [01:05:00] myself directly to Julia Ruth, and I think about it now as if you even said that out loud. [01:05:05] As if as if you even thought it, but as if you even. I think that’s when you could tell [01:05:10] my confidence was at an all time low, because it’s so wild that I think, how are you comfortable saying that out [01:05:15] loud to people? Um, but yeah, I think directly comparing myself and thinking that I’ll never be as [01:05:20] good as she is and and I could never compete with her, so why bother? I think I would, I [01:05:25] would never I was sad watching that that I thought that about myself.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. And I’m just gonna tell you that that’s [01:05:30] absolutely not true at all. And, you know, we have to as women, stop [01:05:35] thinking that we’ve got, like, little self-worth. I have you have. You should see the conversations I have in my head. I’m tired, [01:05:40] I haven’t slept, the conversations I’ve had in my head, like putting myself down. Yeah, but you’re amazing. You really, really are. [01:05:45] And as I said, like, what you’ve done is incredible. I always admire people that have put themselves [01:05:50] out there. And, you know, I think that you’re an incredibly inspirational dentist to so many [01:05:55] people and showing that you can go out there, you can fulfil your dreams, you can be in [01:06:00] media and the spotlight and also you can reflect. And you have been able to change the narrative [01:06:05] about what has been said about you. So yeah, and I’m really grateful. And I was really [01:06:10] excited about doing this podcast. I can’t see what’s to come because I think it’s just the only the only just [01:06:15] just the beginning for you.

Neelima Patel: Thank you so much.

Payman Langroudi: Honestly, I think, you know, you were always one [01:06:20] of the coolest chicks in dentistry anyway. For sure.

Rhona Eskander: For sure. Did you know her? Pre-math. [01:06:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Of course.

Rhona Eskander: Oh, really?

Neelima Patel: Manny? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because, you know, Kayla and all that. [01:06:30] But, um, you were always one of the coolest. And then you and the reason you were cool was because you were authentic. [01:06:35]

Neelima Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then you go on that show and you’re authentic again, so. Well done.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Amazing. [01:06:40] Nellie, I can’t wait to see what’s to come. Okay. Thank you so.

Payman Langroudi: Much.

Rhona Eskander: Thanks for coming.

Neelima Patel: Thank you so [01:06:45] much for having me.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get to go [00:00:10] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:15] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:00:20]

Payman Langroudi: This podcast has been brought to you by Mini Smile Makeover. Mini Smile Makeover [00:00:25] is a two day anterior composite course led by the extraordinary talented [00:00:30] doctor Dipesh Palmer. Two days of full on, hands on composite training, [00:00:35] purely focussed on anterior work composite veneers, polishing, finishing, [00:00:40] shade matching. You also get a free enlightened kit. Plus we have a great time and a party [00:00:45] in the middle. Find out the dates. Mini smile makeover.com. Now let’s get back to the podcast. [00:00:50] It gives me great pleasure to welcome Bilal Ahmed onto the podcast. Bilal is a chartered [00:00:55] accountant, tax advisor, business consultant to dentists. White dentist [00:01:00] buddy underserviced community.

Bilal Ahmed: Uh, massively underserviced so happened [00:01:05] purely by accident. If I’m honest, my wife’s a dentist and then I was employed at the time [00:01:10] we got married, moved up to the northwest, and, um, as any sort of 30 year [00:01:15] old man at the time was looking for a football game. And then my wife was like, well, my friends husbands all play football. So she put [00:01:20] me in touch and it was the same conversation I was hearing time and again is I don’t [00:01:25] know what my numbers are. I can’t doesn’t tell me anything. I was like, well, this is nothing like the accounting that I’m used to because I’m used to working the [00:01:30] accounting corporate sector, which is you look at your numbers regularly, you use those to plan to move forward and do something [00:01:35] with. I’m saying if you’re using your numbers for his tax, why is it so late in the game? Is [00:01:40] it the accounts fault? Is it the dentist fault? Is it a bit of both or is it just [00:01:45] broken? Is the system broken? So as more and more I looked at it, I was like, this is super underserviced. There’s [00:01:50] an opportunity here for me to take what I’ve learned in my corporate career and apply it to a [00:01:55] demographic of people that a, you know, have money to do something with, so the decision making is rewarding, [00:02:00] if that makes sense.

Bilal Ahmed: You know, there’s more you can do with someone who earns more money. And then the linear [00:02:05] progression is then I’m a dentist, I make good money. I [00:02:10] want to jump off that journey and do other things. I might want to invest in other areas, that kind of thing. Or I want to go open up a practice. [00:02:15] Not that I think it’s a logical progression, but it seems to be the case is and then it’s, well, right. How do we [00:02:20] now help you do that? How do we help you make that successful. And it’s been that’s been our journey to to [00:02:25] date. And it’s been it’s been quite fun to be honest. And I don’t see us stepping outside of dentistry for a while. [00:02:30] And in all honesty, one of the reasons why I like working professionals is they’ve got as much [00:02:35] to lose as I have. And you’re not going to ask me to do something we shouldn’t be doing, because if your GDC registration [00:02:40] is on the line.

Payman Langroudi: From a reputational perspective and all that.

Bilal Ahmed: You know, if you seem to be doing something, [00:02:45] you know, downright dishonest, could, could could you be struck off the register? Theoretically. Um, I know [00:02:50] I can if I’m doing anything that so if someone’s got something to lose, um, who’s who’s going [00:02:55] to toe the line a bit better? Look, I’m okay with pushing thresholds and getting as far on the right side of the line, [00:03:00] but I don’t want to cross that line.

Payman Langroudi: And professionals understand that more.

Bilal Ahmed: Understand that more.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:03:05] it’s an interesting point. Yeah. What other nuances are there about dentistry? I mean as [00:03:10] far as yeah, we know the, you know, the kind of nuances you [00:03:15] have to understand about associates and principles and those things. But, you know, I [00:03:20] find dentists are sort of large small businesses. Yeah. You know. [00:03:25]

Bilal Ahmed: There’s some cool nuances. And I use the term cool because I know that all of this stuff. [00:03:30] So there’s certain things like how you can even come to acquire one, um, [00:03:35] practice. Yeah. So if you acquire a practice, um, with [00:03:40] a partnership, kind of an incorporated body, be a partner within a partnership. And what impact, what [00:03:45] impact does that have on the partnership? So if you’ve got, let’s say, husband or wife who’ve been operating [00:03:50] as a limited company for however long, use that money to then go buy a partnership. Partnership, dental practice, [00:03:55] and the contract can’t be incorporated because it has to be the name of [00:04:00] the dentist and has not been incorporated. Contract. How can you still use the money in the limited company tax efficiently to buy the practice? The [00:04:05] short answer is you can, but it gives you a knock on long term implications, which is like you can’t claim capital [00:04:10] allowances. I’m not going to get too into the weeds of it, but there are specific nuances specifically around things like [00:04:15] trading status, Ir35 and more. So things like, you know, if [00:04:20] you’re a female dentist, I’m not to be misogynist. If you’re a male dentist and you get pregnant and [00:04:25] you’re, you’re party to to to the maternity pay scheme, then is it worth incorporating at all? [00:04:30] And, um, if you do still want to incorporate, how do you split your income so that the NHS goes [00:04:35] into the sole trader so you still benefit from paying superannuation? Private goes into the limited company, but then is it still [00:04:40] worth it. Um, and then you’ve got, you’ve got the things like the nuances around training [00:04:45] and development because you know, I think there’s an amount spent by every [00:04:50] dentist every year on further education, on training and enhancing their skills. But [00:04:55] there are certain nuances as to what is tax deductible and what isn’t. Um, so if you’re enhancing existing [00:05:00] skill that is tax deductible, if you’re learning a brand new skill, then no, it’s not.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not tax deductible. [00:05:05]

Bilal Ahmed: It’s not. You can’t claim the tax relief on it.

Payman Langroudi: If I go to a implant course and I have never done implants [00:05:10] before, well.

Bilal Ahmed: See, this is where this is where the line starts getting a bit fuzzy. Now is [00:05:15] could you theoretically place an implant outside of outside of university? [00:05:20] You’ve been to dental school. Could you theoretically place an implant? Would you place an.

Payman Langroudi: Legally I.

Bilal Ahmed: Could [00:05:25] yeah. So that’s where the, that’s that’s where the definition comes into it. Now your own your own skill, [00:05:30] your own, you know, patient care. You want the best possible outcome for your patient means I don’t [00:05:35] think I should do it because I don’t think it’s the right outcome for the patient. So therefore I will go enhance that skill [00:05:40] so that I can ensure recovery time is kept to a minimum. You know, the trauma is kept to an absolute minimum. And [00:05:45] I’m paying the patient’s leaving with the best possible care. And that would be an example of enhancing existing [00:05:50] skill. Now where you’re learning a brand new skill would be, I’ve left dental school. I cannot place an implant. [00:05:55] They did not teach me how to place an implant, and I should not or I can’t, or legally, I’m not allowed to [00:06:00] place an implant. I now have to go train to place an implant that is now learning [00:06:05] a new skill, not enhancing existing skill. So when you ask about nuance, yeah, [00:06:10] there’s nuance. Uh, so there’s nuance and that’s where that’s where this [00:06:15] whole thing becomes quite fuzzy. And then you’ve got things like VAT, for instance. So if Payman [00:06:20] is a dentist and he operates via a limited company and he works at a practice, and that practice [00:06:25] treats him as a franchisee, and I, you gross the income, they take their licence fee [00:06:30] and so on and so forth. And I’ll talk about that a bit more detail. But if you’re going [00:06:35] in and you’re just doing day rate dentistry and you’re doing whatever’s put in front of you, they [00:06:40] tell you how to do it and you go in and do it. Are you now a contractor and is your limited company [00:06:45] now an agency which is now subject to VAT? So [00:06:50] you’ve got to make sure your contracts are set up the right way, because you know, the way the contract should be [00:06:55] set up. Is Bilal’s a dentist for for Payman. Yeah. And, um. [00:07:00]

Payman Langroudi: The associate contract. Right?

Bilal Ahmed: The associate contract? Yeah. So when we’re talking about associate contracts, we’re talking [00:07:05] about, um, the true nature of a contract, right? So it’s the practice is the practice is the practice is [00:07:10] the lead funnel is the source that brings all the patients, puts that patient into dentist chair. From that point [00:07:15] onwards, it’s all dentist. So the dentist decides whether they’re going to see a dentist, decides the treatment [00:07:20] care the course and course of care, the materials they used, how they do it, when they do it, and [00:07:25] it’s all within them. So what happens then is dentist says, I’ll do all this treatment plans five K [00:07:30] and of that five K there might be £1,000 worth of lab bills. We take half the lab bills and we [00:07:35] take half the revenue share. But then your accounts have to reflect that. So most [00:07:40] most accounts that we see don’t gross up the revenue. They will they will record the revenue in the accounts [00:07:45] as a net payment to them. So if they did like 12 grand and two grand was labs and five grand. [00:07:50] And then they’ve hit five grand, hit their bank. But that’s not the true reflection of their contract. True reflection. The contract is I know I [00:07:55] generated 12 grand, I’ve paid £1,000 out in lab bills because I paid £2,000 [00:08:00] at lab bills, got a grand back and I paid five grand out in licence fee. That’s how the contract should. That’s how your accounts [00:08:05] should be reflected. Because if HMRC ever investigate the first thing they’re looking at, show [00:08:10] me the contract, just show me the contract. Because now we’re looking at substance over form. We’re looking at nature. [00:08:15] We’re looking at is is is what’s represented represented [00:08:20] in the contract and does it match. If those things don’t match then you get into the realms [00:08:25] of HMRC compliance checks, which is not a fun process for anyone. So we make sure that everything [00:08:30] is above board and as it should be and as it should be presented.

Payman Langroudi: So we took like a tax investigation, [00:08:35] right? Let’s talk about those while we’re there. While we’re here. Yeah. What triggers [00:08:40] a tax investigation. So is it like a statistics thing.

Bilal Ahmed: So it’s statistical. Yeah. So there’s [00:08:45] a couple of things. So um I think it’s like 1 in 50 will be completely random, so it will be computer [00:08:50] said this year we’re just going to check Payman. Yeah. There’ll be no reason. There’ll be no rhyme or reason. Nothing. [00:08:55] So how that journey looks, how that journey goes, is somewhere something is triggered, a tax investigation. [00:09:00] We’ll go through what triggers it. First one is completely random. Yeah. Second is the [00:09:05] data you’ve presented on your self-assessment is not consistent with other dentists in your area, [00:09:10] in your demographic. So if you’re a dentist in central London and all [00:09:15] dentists have a have an expense base of 12% of their revenue. So if you’re showing £100,000 [00:09:20] revenue, your expenses are about 12 grand. Therefore you pay tax on the other 88. But [00:09:25] if your expenses are coming out like 30 grand and you’re an associate, then why is it so out of [00:09:30] kilter? Yeah. Now, bearing in mind the way the accounts are submitted, it’s all digital and everything’s put into neat little tranches [00:09:35] anyway. So if in that year you’ve done, um, let’s say you’ve done loads of training that year that [00:09:40] gets represented in staff costs. So it’s just staff costs that are out then HMRC. [00:09:45] Well, well we know. I don’t know that the algorithm will say something like I don’t know. We know statistically over [00:09:50] a three year period it bounces back to this number. So if we just look at this year and now look at the year before and the year [00:09:55] after, it all bounces back, nothing will to do.

Bilal Ahmed: You won’t even get you won’t even get anything communicated to you. But [00:10:00] if it’s consistently high, how can one person be spending so much money as an associate dentist when nobody [00:10:05] else is doing it? That then results in something called a knock letter. Knock letter is, um, [00:10:10] Payman. We’ve had a look at your accounts. Are you happy with the numbers you’ve presented? And [00:10:15] it might just be as broad as that. So are you happy with the numbers you’ve presented? Are you happy with [00:10:20] the numbers in your limited company accounts or your partnership accounts, or your self-assessment? The [00:10:25] answer is binary, right? It’s either yes or no. And if it’s no, I’ve noticed an error. Let me fix it and I’ll [00:10:30] put it right. Yeah. If it’s yes, I’ll send it off. Yes. Completely. Fine. That’s when they come back to you and [00:10:35] say hold on. Why why is this number now out? And they want to say, give me all the invoices, give me all the receipts, give me [00:10:40] all the proof of these costs for these areas. And then they’ll come back. And either you can prove it or you can’t. [00:10:45] And if you can’t prove it, that’s where you get into a world of hurt. Because now you’re looking at 100% fine on the outstanding [00:10:50] tax, due interest and penalties charged backdated from the time when it was due. So [00:10:55] does it pay? Was it worth it? Probably not.

Payman Langroudi: Is it only financial or [00:11:00] is it? For instance, I went through a period of, uh, [00:11:05] parking my car wherever I wanted, wherever I wanted. I mean, I wouldn’t park in a disabled bay. [00:11:10] I wouldn’t be a dick about it. I wouldn’t park in some stupid place where it’s going to stop buses [00:11:15] from. But I did the calculation that I’d rather park wherever I want, save [00:11:20] the time on that. But for me, time was the most important variable. Um, [00:11:25] get a ticket once every 4 or 4 weeks because the, you know, the enforcement [00:11:30] wasn’t there. Yeah. And not pay parking at all. And [00:11:35] for me, it worked. Now you. Some people could say you should never [00:11:40] park in a double yellow or double yellows are there for safety reasons, and I’m doing something immoral. [00:11:45] Yeah, yeah. But I’m saying from the accounting perspective, if someone says I’m gonna [00:11:50] cheat, if you like, on my taxes, I’m not going to spend the money, I’m going to invest [00:11:55] the money. And if I get caught, I’m going to pay the fine. Where [00:12:00] do you stand on that?

Bilal Ahmed: So there’s probably three things we need to go through there because there’s like three.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a bit off [00:12:05] the wall.

Bilal Ahmed: Yeah. So so I’ll go through the first one. So. So I do this sometimes. So let’s say um [00:12:10] I’ve got Team Day in Manchester and the nearest bit of parking I can get is, is the one right [00:12:15] outside the building. But it’s got a two hour limit. So I’ll say I’m here for six hours. It’s two [00:12:20] hours. I don’t want to get out. Move my car. It’s not worth it. I’ve got all my team here. There’s great expense incurred here for me to then [00:12:25] dip out and go find somewhere. I’ll just take the ticket. So I’ve overstayed my welcome in a bay. [00:12:30] I’ll take the £25 ticket because it’s cheaper. Because realistically, I’d rather pay that £25 ticket than someone [00:12:35] dinged my car in a car park and pay a £200 repair shop bill. So that’s so, yes. [00:12:40] Is it tax deductible? No. It’s never taxable. Fines and penalties are not tax deductible. [00:12:45]

Payman Langroudi: So you know. But I mean I’m there there I’m not paying my parking. What if I decide I’m not going to [00:12:50] pay some tax.

Bilal Ahmed: That’s a separate attacks. On what. Whatever it is. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever it is I’m going to [00:12:55] I’m going to start expensing family holidays for the sake of the argument. And [00:13:00] if I get caught, I will pay the fine. So is is it does it [00:13:05] go beyond the financial. Do I now have some sort of criminal record sort of thing.

Bilal Ahmed: So it depends on what [00:13:10] it is. So um, it could be a slap on the wrist or it could be, you know, fraud. [00:13:15] Yeah. We’re talking about different things. So, um, with things like, [00:13:20] you know, we we do see it. We, you know, why are you putting this through the business? Like, you know.

Payman Langroudi: And what are the limits? [00:13:25] What are the limits? I mean.

Bilal Ahmed: So the definition of an expensive business is something that’s wholly and exclusively incurred for business. [00:13:30]

Payman Langroudi: Wholly and exclusively.

Bilal Ahmed: Now.

Payman Langroudi: So I buy a laptop. If I use it at home, it’s not [00:13:35] wholly.

Bilal Ahmed: No. So there’s certain things that aren’t, um, that say like Incidental [00:13:40] additional use is by the by like a mobile phone is really good example of this. So [00:13:45] I as I as an employee give all my staff mobile phones and they have unlimited, unlimited, [00:13:50] unlimited minutes texts and data if they use that whilst they’re out and about. I don’t really care because there’s no [00:13:55] incremental cost to me. And if they use it for personal gain, there’s not they’re not subject to benefit in kind tax because it’s incidental [00:14:00] that they’re using it for, for for the purposes intended. And if they’ve done something personal it’s incidental.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:14:05]

Bilal Ahmed: Where something that’s wholly and exclusively like where in your podcast studio right now, if you bought [00:14:10] a Ferrari F40 and parked it in the background, use as a prop that’s wholly exclusively [00:14:15] for business. The moment you drive a single person a mile in that car now is now subject to benefit in kind [00:14:20] tax. But if you drove that to business meetings and you drove it to client meetings or supplier meetings, business [00:14:25] expense, completely fine business vehicle. But where where someone like me, for instance, [00:14:30] that works from home. If I went and bought a GT3 Rs and said I only used it for content and [00:14:35] I rigged it up for cameras. That said, every time I get in the car, I press a button. I’ve got camera one, two and three set up, and [00:14:40] it records me as I’m going. And I only use it for business purposes. And I’m well within the realms of what I’m [00:14:45] allowed to do, because it’s parked at my house means it’s available for personal use [00:14:50] by virtue of the fact that now it’s available for personal use, I’m subject to a benefit context [00:14:55] whether I do it or not. So it’s it’s where things where you start toeing the line look. And [00:15:00] I had a conversation, I had a consultation with someone last week. The consultation lasted six minutes. [00:15:05] The reason why the consultation lasted six minutes because he hit every single red flag. And the [00:15:10] call started with, this is how much I earn. Um, I can’t get Ahold of my account. He’s moved [00:15:15] to Dubai. I’m looking for a new account. What do you want from an account? Well, before he left, he said I could set up [00:15:20] a child trust fund in my grandparent’s name. And, um, declared dividends up to the trust [00:15:25] fund, and then that could pay for my kids private education, well known tax avoidance scheme. And so well known [00:15:30] that HMRC are now saying if I know about it and I don’t report it, even if [00:15:35] I didn’t set it up.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Bilal Ahmed: I’m. I’m liable for £1,000 a day fine for [00:15:40] not reporting it. Well, personally. Well, not personally. My business is but £1,000 a day. Fine. I’m [00:15:45] reporting you because I’m not losing £1,000 a day. But I also said to him, I can tell you how that [00:15:50] conversation went because he didn’t put it in writing, did he? No. He told you a phone call, didn’t he? Yeah. He told you how to do it as well, [00:15:55] didn’t he? Yeah. Anything. Tie it back to him. No. So he walks away with his hands clean. You pay [00:16:00] a nice, handsome fee for the tax advice. Tax advice and where this scheme falls down. And this is the conversation [00:16:05] we were having before we hit record is when this tax avoidance. Tax avoidance or when is it effective tax planning. So [00:16:10] that scheme means what happens is you have you set up this um trust fund [00:16:15] in grandparents name and instead of you taking dividends personally, you declare dividends [00:16:20] up to the trust. And the trust uses that to pay for the child the child’s education. So quite tax efficient scheme to do [00:16:25] that. Where that whole thing falls down is there is no reason for you to have just given shares [00:16:30] to somebody in your business. You wouldn’t just give me 20% of your business now would you? There’d have to [00:16:35] be a commercial reason for you having done that. Yeah. So when we were talking about substance over form previously, is [00:16:40] HMRC want to know the commercial reason for why you did what you did? If you can prove commerciality [00:16:45] then it’s fine.

Bilal Ahmed: There’s a commercial reason i.e. my grandparents stumped up the cash originally [00:16:50] to pay to help me run my business instead of taking loans from the bank. I took it, took [00:16:55] from my grandparents, and instead of them paying me back, we did a debt to equity conversion and the debt was equal [00:17:00] to 10% of the business. So I gave them 10% of the business. What they do with their money thereafter is up to them, and [00:17:05] that’s completely fine. But if there’s no commercial reason as to why you’ve just given somebody shares, it makes no sense. [00:17:10] And that’s where HMRC will get you. So as I said, there’s three things to unpack. Is [00:17:15] is there’s a lot more to this. There’s a lot more nuance to go through than just to say yes or no and just sort [00:17:20] of go back to the start of this conversation was there is a third reason that might lead to a tax investigation. Someone’s [00:17:25] dobbed you in. If someone just does not like you and they it [00:17:30] could be a disgruntled employee. It could be someone that knows you’re doing all and sundry through your business, and you [00:17:35] run it through and off it goes. And you know, then they’ve got something. And then now people are incentivised because [00:17:40] the whistleblower scheme now means people can get paid a proportion of the reclaim and the whistleblower [00:17:45] gets paid and protected throughout, throughout the entire process now.

Bilal Ahmed: Yeah. So those are the three reasons that [00:17:50] you might end up with a tax tax investigation from HMRC. And from our perspective, just [00:17:55] to go back to that conversation that was having with the guy last week. So that was the first red flag [00:18:00] and the second red flag is, well, how do I not pay any tax? I was like, well you can’t because tax [00:18:05] is a proportion of profit. So if you want to pay no tax, make no profit. So if you’ve made 200 grand profit, [00:18:10] go spend 200 grand and you’ll have no tax to pay. Super legal but I’ll pay tax. I [00:18:15] pay VAT every quarter. We work with dentists. Dentists aren’t that registered. So that’s 16.6% of my top line [00:18:20] that I’m just giving to HMRC. Hmrc probably make more for my business than I do. So 16.6 of the top line and [00:18:25] then I give them 25% corporation tax. I still pay employers National insurance, and I still pay income tax on the money that I take out. And [00:18:30] I bought a house this year, so I paid him a whopping bit of stamp duty as well, and if I could have made that zero, I [00:18:35] would have done. But it’s not zero. It’s a stupid number and I hate it, but I pay it.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:18:40] I mean, you make an interesting point right around the [00:18:45] question of, you know, what is the difference between a good accountant [00:18:50] and a great accountant? Yeah. And I just want to I know, [00:18:55] you know, you’ve got your own sort of area sector specific answer to this, but [00:19:00] but what is the difference between a good lawyer and a great lawyer. Yeah. For [00:19:05] me is the great lawyer says the good lawyer says these are your four options. [00:19:10] Yeah. The great lawyer says these are your four options. I would pick option three. Yeah. [00:19:15] If it was me. Yeah. Um, and it’s almost around the communication [00:19:20] sort of area. What would you say if I said good, good [00:19:25] accountant. Great accountant. What’s the difference?

Bilal Ahmed: So my background’s corporate finance and I’ve only ever reported at board [00:19:30] level. So it’s if I’m working with decision makers, really why I enjoy what I do now. [00:19:35] So why I hated the corporate world was you’re steeped in bureaucracy. Yeah. There’s layers of people that want to [00:19:40] take credit. There’s layers, layers of people that has to go through. You’ve got to have.

Payman Langroudi: Conversations.

Bilal Ahmed: In corridors. It’s slow, it’s laborious. [00:19:45] The right person has to get the right credit before something moves on. Everyone’s so risk averse and nobody wants [00:19:50] to do anything. And then we end up getting sort of paralysis through analysis. Hated it. Would really enjoy what I [00:19:55] do, what I do now. So it’s as you’ve said, that’s what we stamp on. So that’s what we work on. So if I’m [00:20:00] working with subject matter experts is I will say these are your options A, B and C. This [00:20:05] is, this is then we quantify a b and C then we rank them that says if [00:20:10] you want to do A these are the approaches to A. If you want to do B, these are the approaches to B. If you want to do see these approaches [00:20:15] to C. C is a vanity project. Put it to one side, throw it in the bin. It’s not worth doing. Now everything [00:20:20] that C is categorised under is long grass. We’re talking about if the business succeeds you want to [00:20:25] do this well let’s focus on that. So that takes a and B a and b. The options are and if we if we [00:20:30] achieve A, then it might be worth an extra 100 grand to your bottom line. If we achieve B then it’s extra 50 [00:20:35] grand. Well the answer is now super obvious. It’s A. That is the one that we should go for with a now [00:20:40] is then. It’s not not just option. It’s option to implementation [00:20:45] is how do we now take a and put it into reality. So we take all of A [00:20:50] and we run that into a Gantt chart for the year that says what are the code dependencies for a. [00:20:55] So there might be six objectives that we want to achieve on A, but we can’t do 4 or 5 and six until we’ve done one, two and three.

Payman Langroudi: To [00:21:00] make it an example. So A might be.

Bilal Ahmed: I’ll give you a real example. So we’ve just done this [00:21:05] with a practice. So we they I call it silly season. I call Covid silly season [00:21:10] because pre-COVID you could go buy a practice as a principal. And the evaluations were pretty, pretty [00:21:15] sensible around that time. And the debt factor was really low. You could go buy practices as principal and still cover [00:21:20] your income, what you’re earning as an associate. Yeah, and you’d be fine. Covid knocked all that out the wall. [00:21:25] Then you had the the economic or the sort of economic within dentistry factor where you had dentists [00:21:30] and Portland fighting for every purchase and then skewed multipliers. So, you know, there’s people [00:21:35] getting ten times multipliers on exits that shouldn’t have been ten times multipliers. That factor was still really [00:21:40] low. Now, what you’ve done is set an unrealistic expectation for what practice is worth. And everything was [00:21:45] just on this adjusted EBITDA figure. So it says if it did this, then it’s worth this. Well, [00:21:50] if my Ford Fiesta had a Ferrari engine, I’d sell it as a Ferrari. But it doesn’t. It’s a Ford Fiesta. So you’re going to buy it as a Ford [00:21:55] Fiesta. So this is where this is where the numbers got a bit got a bit wayward. So [00:22:00] what then happened is private dentistry went crazy through Covid again.

Bilal Ahmed: Economic factors. You had furlough, you had [00:22:05] free money. People sat at home doing nothing, and those that were working were on zoom calls looking at themselves, wanted all the [00:22:10] cosmetic work because it was free money. The bills got to come due at some point, right. So [00:22:15] people are then stocking up for all this work. What you’ve got is where we refer to as [00:22:20] teeming and lading, where new money is paying for, um, past costs. So Invisalign [00:22:25] is a really good example of this because I refer to Invisalign as a Ponzi scheme, and I think it’s [00:22:30] a I think the only person that wins out of Invisalign Invisalign labs. The reason is you go, you [00:22:35] go price something at three three and a half grand for Invisalign Payman Invisalign take a third of that, [00:22:40] the associate takes a third and you’re left with a third. But you’re left holding the baby for 18 months because you’ve got to do all the treatments, [00:22:45] all the chair time, all the nurse costs, all the overhead costs. You really don’t make that much, much out of it unless [00:22:50] you price it correctly or you’re the one doing it. Or you can close that treatment down about 3.5 hours. But that’s a whole [00:22:55] different conversation for another day. So if you’re now doing all these Invisalign open days and you’re [00:23:00] using all that money that’s coming in to pay off yesterday’s debts, it’s fine.

Bilal Ahmed: As long as the revenue [00:23:05] keeps going up the moment that line flattens, now you’ve got an issue. The bigger issue [00:23:10] comes when the revenue starts decreasing, because now you haven’t got new chair. Time to pay for all debts and you start building up [00:23:15] all your liabilities. So to give you an example of how we would do this and what a real world example is, we went in and looked at a business, [00:23:20] and we identified about £1 million worth of business that wasn’t worth them doing because it was losing their [00:23:25] money on, on, on every treatment. So if you’re discounting your top line just to bring the money in [00:23:30] and we can work out your profit margin historically was about 13%. It’s actually lower. It’s about 9.8%. [00:23:35] And you’re discounting everything about 20%. You’re losing money on every single thing on [00:23:40] for this, for this million pound. So what was the solution on the back of that solution? On [00:23:45] the back of that is you close your three surgeries, you stop discounting and then we can lose the associate overhead [00:23:50] cost. So what does that mean then? We’ve lost £1 million of revenue. Business must be crippling. No, because [00:23:55] now we’ve we’re not losing money on those treatments.

Bilal Ahmed: Now we’ve shut down the surgery. [00:24:00] So we haven’t got the corresponding overhead cost. So we’re now five surgeries. Profit now increased on less revenue. [00:24:05] But that’s pure that’s action down to implementation. And even to the point where [00:24:10] we introduced a sliding scale payment that says look we want to rationalise want to bring this number [00:24:15] down, but the sliding scale has to be at these rates. We will now work out at what point the sliding scale [00:24:20] pays up. So you can have 40%, 42.5%, 45%. And we’re paying accelerator. So [00:24:25] if you’re now if you’re over. So if you’re revenue prior exceeds a certain amount for the month, then we’ll pay you 50% [00:24:30] everything. Because we know once you get past the point of revenue, the incremental cost doesn’t move with it. So now you’re [00:24:35] more profitable. But it also prevents sandbagging, which is. So if I’m currently at 45%, [00:24:40] why would I start this treatment this month? Why wouldn’t I do it for next month. So my revenue so I’m bolstering my [00:24:45] next month. So by paying the accelerator you stop sandbagging. So it all goes into the month that it should go [00:24:50] into. So so it drives the right behaviour and it rewards the right behaviour. But this is a conversation [00:24:55] we were having offline.

Bilal Ahmed: Right. Which is what is the point of a KPI. A KPI is only as good as the action you can do on [00:25:00] the back of it. What is the KPI here? Revenue per hour. What is revenue per hour? Tell us, how much money are we going to make? [00:25:05] How profitable we are in the period, how much cash we’re going to generate and how much money I’ve got to do all this stuff. But if you’re [00:25:10] only going to look at revenue per hour and do nothing with it, then it’s pointless. Kpi is nothing without the action you can take [00:25:15] on the back of it. Yeah, and that’s a real example that says implementation to action. And that’s [00:25:20] what we do as a business. So we’re kickstarting a project with one of our clients down in Essex who’ve [00:25:25] decided they want to sell, and we’ve worked out if they sell today, they’ll get about 1.5 million. If [00:25:30] we can achieve everything we want to achieve over the next 12 months, they’ll get about 1.9 million. So there’s a there’s 400 [00:25:35] grand on the table. They will decide where they want to get off that journey. Because even if we get halfway through, [00:25:40] still two grand more than they would’ve got if they didn’t do it. And it’s worth it for them.

Payman Langroudi: And is that [00:25:45] in, in in essence, sort of every pound you save in cost becomes [00:25:50] £7 in. Yeah. It’s in multiplied EBITDA. [00:25:55]

Bilal Ahmed: Correct. There’s a bit more to that. So this practice that we’re doing it with. So they’ve tried to [00:26:00] sell it previously. And the feedback they had from the brokers was you’ll get you’ll cap out at about three, three [00:26:05] and a half times EBITDA because it’s principle led. So what we’re saying is over [00:26:10] the next year, what we’ll do with you is, is make it more associate led. So how we’ll do that is they’ve [00:26:15] got five associates across. The practice is we will monitor the the profitability of each associate. [00:26:20] So we can do panels and profitability per associate, which now drives [00:26:25] the principles objective, which is don’t worry about your pocket over the over the short term, [00:26:30] because yes, your revenue will drop, but the outcome is more money to you at the end. So all you do is you’re deferring it [00:26:35] now for for this project, your time and energy should be now on systems and processes and [00:26:40] building up the capability of your associates, because that’s what gets us the best multiplier after [00:26:45] the fact. Because if we can now prove to a buyer that it that we’ve done all these systems [00:26:50] and processes, then we’re pushing beyond seven times EBITDA, we’re probably in the realms of 7.1, 7.2, 7.3. [00:26:55] And then we’re taking away less deferred element of that of that purchase as well. [00:27:00] So someone, you know, one of the big corporate buyers will say, well, if it does this, this and the other will pay you eight times, but we’ll defer this [00:27:05] bit of it. We can argue, no, we’ve done it.

Bilal Ahmed: So you can see we’ve done it. We can demonstrate we’ve done it. [00:27:10] We want to defer less, which is a conversation we’ve had with buyers that says, no, we can evidence we’ve achieved this [00:27:15] and go, yep, we can see it. We can see it in the numbers. We can see your logic. You can see how you’ve come to that assessment. So when they’ve done [00:27:20] their financial due diligence it ring fences. How we’ve done it. Because I’m used to having all my numbers audited. [00:27:25] So when I worked in corporate Deloitte came and checked my numbers. So financial and non-financial. [00:27:30] So my process is always logical, which is can I prove it? Can I substantiate it? Can [00:27:35] I take you on a journey of how I got there? It wasn’t just a finger in the air job that says, this is how I got it, because then it’s not. [00:27:40] It’s like doing your math, your math test, right? If you can’t show your working, then the answer is useless. You have [00:27:45] to show your working. So the idea in the background is, how do we take all of this? Present it in such a way [00:27:50] that you can buy it or the seller can get seller can have confidence in what they’re buying, and it makes that entire process [00:27:55] really good, because the other side of it is, and we’ve been on the right side or the wrong side of the [00:28:00] table is without having done all the PhD, the buyer will pull in an 11th hour move.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry. [00:28:05] The 11th hour.

Bilal Ahmed: Yeah. And say X and Y Z’s happen. We’re paying you £1 million less, or [00:28:10] we’re going to defer an extra million pound to, you know, if you achieve x, y, z objective. No. Not doing it. So we can [00:28:15] pre-empt that. So we can we can pre-empt that at the start of the journey. So that doesn’t happen. But then [00:28:20] if I’m on the buy side and I know there side hasn’t done any of this, I’m ripping the whole thing apart. [00:28:25] And I’ve just done this with one of my clients who buying a practice. We’ve just got 150 grand off the asking [00:28:30] price, so it was on the market for 1.25 million. We’ve got it for 1.1 million. Still 50 grand more than [00:28:35] I wanted to pay for it, but it’s not my money. So went to my clients and said, look, this is what this is what it’s doing. Currently, [00:28:40] I can’t see a 1.25 valuation. I can see 1,000,050. Any [00:28:45] overage is is up to you guys, but I think you can get it to a £1.7 [00:28:50] million in about a year and a half, two years by doing X, Y and Z. And they’ve gone, well, we’re [00:28:55] happy to pay 50 grand over because we can see the trajectory now to 1.7. So we’re then giving our buyers confidence. [00:29:00] But conversely is I did one about [00:29:05] six months ago, one of my clients, I told him to walk away from it. That’s not worth buying. [00:29:10] Don’t even pay for the bank valuation because it’s two and a half grand bank bank valuation, and I know what it’s going to come back [00:29:15] to. It’s not worth doing because the business has been in decline for about three years, and [00:29:20] some of the information that we had in the background was the reason why the.

Bilal Ahmed: So this singular practice [00:29:25] was a part of a group of practices, and we were selling it separately because it was pulling down the EBITDA of all the other practices. [00:29:30] So what does that tell you about the shape of the practice? And then when you start running the data in the background, you can [00:29:35] just see decline year on year, decline year on year decline, year on year decline. And it’s not worth it. So you’re almost better [00:29:40] off just setting up a squat at this point. And in that case, the practice isn’t worth any more than its underlying squat value. [00:29:45] So fixtures and fittings and anything there’s no goodwill you really. And so client yet and [00:29:50] walking away from it bumped into the person that went and bought it. They’re not having a great time with it [00:29:55] and they’re not having a great time because they’ve overpaid for it. And they they thought the package was going to be busy than [00:30:00] it was and it wasn’t. And as they’ve come in, the staff have now left in the background as well. So what was the point? [00:30:05] Now you’ve got this big debt over your head with no corresponding revenue and [00:30:10] not the thing that you even wanted, and you haven’t got enough revenue coming in to even change it the way you want it to look. So there’s all there’s [00:30:15] all these, you know, depending on what side of the table we’re on, we behave and act different ways. Obviously we can’t [00:30:20] we can’t be on both sides of the table because we’re negotiating.

Payman Langroudi: The same deal. They can’t know.

Bilal Ahmed: We’ve [00:30:25] got a weird one at the moment where we sort of are, but we’ve had to create walls [00:30:30] in our own business that says, I can’t see Southside. I’m not allowed to see Southside. So my.

Payman Langroudi: Direct. [00:30:35]

Bilal Ahmed: Yeah. So my directors, my fellow director Kieran is looking at Southside and we’re doing that through [00:30:40] our other business, Intel Beacon, where he’s acting on sell side. So Heath or green which is the accountancy [00:30:45] firm is acting on buy side. So I can’t get involved in that. I can’t look at how he got his [00:30:50] numbers. So and I would approach it, I would evaluate it in the exact same way I would do any of the business. We’ve had to go back to our indemnity, [00:30:55] even our governing body, the ICW, to say, can we even do this? And I said, look, as long as you’ve, you’ve, [00:31:00] you’ve met your ethical constraints. So that threat to independence, subjectivity, objectivity, [00:31:05] and as long as you can prove you’ve done that which we have, then it’s fine to do it. But that’s where the ethics then comes [00:31:10] back down to it. That says, as a chartered accountant, I’m bound by a set of ethics, and I have to take the right decision. [00:31:15] On the back of that says this isn’t the right thing to do, but it is in this case.

Payman Langroudi: Look, obviously in the [00:31:20] in the buying of a practice, you’d like to know as soon as possible that someone’s thinking about buying a practice, right? [00:31:25] Yeah.

Bilal Ahmed: I want to know whether it’s a fleeting thought.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the same on the sell side. Yeah. You want [00:31:30] to know as soon as possible. So you’ve got that runway of time to prepare the thing, not [00:31:35] just for sale.

Bilal Ahmed: So it’s. We can demonstrate time and again is, is [00:31:40] if you’ve got up and you’ve lost a love for it, sell it. Because every month that goes by, every [00:31:45] pound, you now start losing in efficiencies. Now you’re losing £7 on exit. So if you’ve got to the point [00:31:50] now where you’ve lost the love for it, sell it and we can package it up to sell it straight away.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But what I want to [00:31:55] know is let’s say I’m not looking to buy or sell. I’m running a business. Yeah. How often do [00:32:00] I consult with you, my accountant? And how involved do you get in, in [00:32:05] in the, you know, showing me what to do? Yeah.

Bilal Ahmed: So the day to day stuff is, is really where our [00:32:10] bread and butter is. So most of what we do is the in life management. So we’ve been working with a [00:32:15] one of our practices in the Midlands. Fantastic clinician. And she’s she’s absolutely amazing [00:32:20] at what she does. And I’ve got a lot of love for her. And she’s taught me loads. And the way she looks at her business is phenomenal. And then [00:32:25] I’ve got a practice in the North West across three sites that does the same thing. And the way they look at the business is [00:32:30] fantastic. So what we’re doing with them is understanding the what next bit. [00:32:35] Yeah. So in life don’t want to sell. We’ve got we want to exit. We want we want maximum [00:32:40] value so we can do something else. So we’ve we’ve we’ve been on this journey with this practice now to go from two surgeries [00:32:45] to five. And one of the things was, is then at what point do we incorporate into a limited company? Because [00:32:50] all the money we’re making at the moment is getting plugged back in to take it from two surgeries to five. So we can now help you understand [00:32:55] when to recruit, how to recruit, how much to pay. Because if we’re now, we can then say, right, [00:33:00] we’re all all the numbers are green, all the KPIs are where they are. Budget says we were going to do [00:33:05] surgery three in August. You’re actually beating budget. You need to start now. And by start now, you need to go recruit [00:33:10] now. Because what we can’t have is surgery three open and then surgery three is now open.

Bilal Ahmed: Now you’re going to go [00:33:15] find a nurse because. Too late. What we almost want to over recruit slightly beforehand. Get them [00:33:20] to know these systems and processes and get them. We can help you identify that. But then what was cool about this one was [00:33:25] so this was a different one. In the same sort of thing though, is we did a walk through the practice and [00:33:30] we said, for you to do surgery 3 in 6 months later, do surgery four, that’s twice you have to shut [00:33:35] down the front of the practice. I’d rather you did surgeries three and four now and take and [00:33:40] not take the the sunk cost or the opportunity cost. Don’t don’t take the opportunity lost down the road. Go through that pain [00:33:45] once and we can do it. And surgery five is going to be an annexe at the back anyway. So it had no had no impact on the main [00:33:50] building. This is what we would get involved in at the start that says and then one of our practices [00:33:55] in the Midlands is now come to the end of building a mega site. So eight surgeries, [00:34:00] we’ve done a walk through and worked with the builders, existing practice and their second [00:34:05] site. We’ve done a walk through the builders to help identify what they can, claim capital allowances, and [00:34:10] make sure they get the maximum tax deductibility because not everything is tax deductible when you build your practice out. So if you’ve got [00:34:15] things like disability ramps can’t claim not tax deductible. Can claim. Yeah. No [00:34:20] claim on the back end when you sell the practice.

Bilal Ahmed: Can’t do anything about it up front. Now they’ve got like a ten foot [00:34:25] drop on the front where they’ve had to dig it out and then landscape it so it’s safe. But [00:34:30] that on its own you can’t tax deductible because it’s got nothing. It’s not holding exclusive. [00:34:35] Your business has no impact. But when working with the contractors we identified, they would have had to have done that. So [00:34:40] we can so where all the irrigation for all the surgeries runs through, runs through the practice, [00:34:45] down the middle, at the front and out to the side, well, we would have had to have dug it up so [00:34:50] we can put irrigation in. So we’re going to so again we, we we speak to HMRC beforehand that says look this is [00:34:55] what’s happened. We had to do this to put it back. It’s going to cost us this. Yep. Fine. Tax deductible. So if I [00:35:00] know about it beforehand then I can deal with it where you’ve got the relationship with the contractors and it’s happening. I can do something [00:35:05] about it because I can get them to make sure their invoice, their statement of the statement of work or reflects what [00:35:10] I need to reflect. If it’s after that, you’re never going to get hold of the builder afterwards. They’re not going to change anything afterwards. They got no incentive [00:35:15] to do anything afterwards. So whilst the relationship is good and they’re still working for you and they’re still doing things with [00:35:20] you, is we can make sure that it reflects the nature of the work and you get the maximum tax deductibility. [00:35:25]

Payman Langroudi: But can you play the other side of it for me, whereby can [00:35:30] you tell me about an example of where the numbers are saying do x, [00:35:35] y and z? But the immeasurables said [00:35:40] do something else. And I mean, you look [00:35:45] at you look at a business purely, purely through through the numbers. If if you look at the business [00:35:50] purely through the numbers, you could say the cost of, I don’t know, whatever it is isn’t [00:35:55] worth it. Yeah, yeah. Whereas in a business and especially in a service [00:36:00] business, some of the gold, some of the most important sort of cornerstones of success [00:36:05] of that business are immeasurable. Yeah. Agreed. Yeah. So if an [00:36:10] accountant or someone, you know, someone who’s looking at numbers and KPIs is [00:36:15] allowed to make the decisions. I know, you know, you’re you’re an advisor. Yeah. But let’s say that [00:36:20] the principal is making decisions based purely on numbers. Have you you know, there must be examples [00:36:25] of where it’s gone wrong. Yeah.

Bilal Ahmed: Yeah. So. So to [00:36:30] ring fence, what you said before about what makes the difference between a good and a bad lawyer.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well, good and great.

Bilal Ahmed: Good [00:36:35] and great. Yeah. Sorry. Good and great. By the time you need a lawyer, you’re already [00:36:40] in a pickle. A great accountant should be putting out fires before they become fires. That’s [00:36:45] what a great account should be doing for you. So before it becomes a problem, they should have put out the fire and fixed it and given it to you. [00:36:50] Where? Where the immeasurable, where things haven’t gone right or [00:36:55] wrong is. I think it’s down to an expectation gap is we can’t come in and run your business for [00:37:00] you. We’re not allowed to. There’s a specific, specific bit of legislation called client managed services, where if I’m now seen [00:37:05] to be running your business for you, I’m personally liable, not Heath or green bill ALS personally reliable. [00:37:10] Well. So that’s my personal assets at risk. That’s my that’s my livelihood. That’s everything. So we don’t cross [00:37:15] that line. So accountability is a big thing here that says we can show you the path. We can illuminate [00:37:20] it. And we do this through our company called Intel Beacon, where we use power BI to rip all the data out [00:37:25] your PMS and show you. But we spend a lot of time on the educational side of things.

Bilal Ahmed: So when [00:37:30] any any client joins us on this journey, I spend two hours with them on a strat call. We don’t talk numbers. I [00:37:35] want to know why. I want to know what’s motivating you. Why do you want to do this? [00:37:40] Because I’ll be honest. I talk a lot of people out of doing this stuff because I can’t see it. I can’t [00:37:45] see how they’re going to make this successful because there’s there’s there’s a negative there’s no correlation [00:37:50] between a great clinician and a great practice owner because there just isn’t. I like eating at restaurants. Does not [00:37:55] mean I should open up a restaurant, because if I don’t understand, you know, turnover rates, dinner [00:38:00] service, recruitment, marketing, HR, legal, then those things aren’t going to correlate. So, [00:38:05] um, where we’ve taught clients out of doing stuff is because we just can’t see [00:38:10] how they want to do it, but then they go, sod it, we’re going to do it anyway. Fine. If you’re going to do it anyway, it’s not [00:38:15] like I’m going to wash my hands of you. I’m still going to be around. I’m still going to be on your side, because I still have an obligation to.

Payman Langroudi: Make what I mean, what I mean, [00:38:20] though, what I mean, maybe you’re your KPI tells you this [00:38:25] associate is earning less per hour than this associate. Yeah, but [00:38:30] maybe in if you qualitatively looked at it. Yeah. [00:38:35] This associate is building trust. So so that in six months time he can [00:38:40] present gigantic um treatment plans. And the other one who’s earning more right now [00:38:45] isn’t being great with his patients. He’s overcharging or whatever. Now, from the stats, [00:38:50] it looks like the one earning more is doing well. And we need to go talk to the one earning less. Yeah, yeah. [00:38:55] And when you do that, if the guy is doing what I said, if he’s, if he’s going [00:39:00] slow, building trust, you know, small bits until, you know, later [00:39:05] on he’s gonna he’s gonna present big treatment plans if a, if [00:39:10] a, if the principal comes to and says, hey, my accountants told me you’re not making enough money, that kid [00:39:15] who’s probably a really great dentist, is that that nuance, right? That nuance. And I can [00:39:20] imagine principals beating the heads of associates with the stats. Now, [00:39:25] sometimes it’s correct. But I’m saying examples of times when it’s not correct.

Bilal Ahmed: Advice, [00:39:30] though, that if an accountant does that, they’re not in the right. They should not be advising you. Because if [00:39:35] all they’ve done is look at the numbers, I’ll I’ll give you I’ll give you a real world example. So when I was employed, I worked for [00:39:40] National Express. I worked in group finance for National Express. There was a team of six of us that looked after about £2.2 billion [00:39:45] worth of business. This is where I trained. So I trained as a pure technical accountant at National Express Group finance. [00:39:50] I got to do some weird and wonderful things. I got sent out to the Middle East to go help build a bus network in Bahrain, [00:39:55] build tenders for projects out in Mecca, you know, tendering for a fifth of [00:40:00] the bus network in Dubai to go private. Got to do some weird and wonderful things. One of the things I got to [00:40:05] do was work alongside the health and safety director of the entire group, and one of the key [00:40:10] metrics before any of the board of directors got paid their bonuses was, did we kill more people [00:40:15] this year than we did last year? Now, you can imagine how popular I was around bonus season, because my number then quantified [00:40:20] whether they got paid their bonuses or not. So again, qualitative information an [00:40:25] absolute number is pointless. Did we kill more people than we did this year versus last year? [00:40:30] No. But if you put 20 people more in comas and lifelong care, did [00:40:35] we do better or worse? So the rail uses something. Rail network uses something called an fwi [00:40:40] fatalities weighted index, which weights every last time injury, minor or major injury [00:40:45] as a percent as a proportion to a fatality.

Bilal Ahmed: So fatality is one. A major injury is 0.1 [00:40:50] a last time injury is 200th and a minor injury is 1,000th. So we’re taking all of these things in aggregate. Now [00:40:55] that says why is this happening? So I then had to go back and do three years worth of data and restate [00:41:00] prior two years data with this new metric, with this, new with with this, with this new figure. And it [00:41:05] got checked by Deloitte. Yeah. So again numbers numbers on their own are pointless. [00:41:10] They do not tell you anything. So where you’ve got America that’s telling us every single thing that. Why [00:41:15] is America. Bear in mind we’ve got the biggest bus network out in in Spain. [00:41:20] So ulcer bus network out in Bahrain. Um. Not Bahrain in Morocco. Rail [00:41:25] network in Germany. Rail network CTC in London. Um National [00:41:30] Express coaches. The the bus network out in the West Midlands, the West Midlands travel [00:41:35] and then all the little yellow American school buses in America. And you think all these stats coming [00:41:40] out of America are crazy? Like why is there volume of injuries so significant, lost [00:41:45] time, injuries so significant? When you take a step back and you start looking at root cause you’ve got first principles they [00:41:50] have to report last time injuries so they can go to the doctor and the insurance will pay for it if [00:41:55] you just go to the doctor and don’t report it. That comes out of your pocket.

Payman Langroudi: Insurance doesn’t pay.

Bilal Ahmed: Correct. So you have [00:42:00] to report it. Yeah. So now does that mean we’re hurting more people in America? No. It just means there’s more incentive for them [00:42:05] to report. Yeah. So. So we normalise that data. So that sort of answers your question that says a number in isolation is [00:42:10] pointless. Yeah. So let’s take associates. Let’s take an associate an example here. So we [00:42:15] had an associate finish a qualification. And he said I now I [00:42:20] now want to earn 50% of everything I do. So we had a conversation with associates. Right now you [00:42:25] lose this money by being here. So your average average revenue per hour is £850 [00:42:30] for you to break even. I need you at £1,400 for you to be viable, and I need you to do it in about 18, £1,900 [00:42:35] a day. So let’s work out how we’re going to do that. So mine isn’t to [00:42:40] now tell you how to do dentistry, because I’m not a clinician and I never stop and never cross over that line. But I want to show the associate [00:42:45] what this actually means. From that, we work with the principle that says, you’ve got [00:42:50] to make a decision that says you’ve got to work with your associates because that’s part of your job. But if you’re stuck in surgery, then you’re doing [00:42:55] wrong by your associates.

Bilal Ahmed: You keep beating with a stick when you’re the one not showing them systems and processes. So have they [00:43:00] got the right training? So do you want to sell? Do you want to send them on a bedside manner? Course. You [00:43:05] know, effective effective communication course that helps them get to where they want to get to. But what we know with dentists [00:43:10] and it works really well is look, I’m just going to assume you’re all really smart because you had [00:43:15] to be to get to where you where you got to. And one thing for certain is you’re super competitive because you want to get to where you are without [00:43:20] the competitive gene. They shy away from numbers because it’s something they’re not certain on and [00:43:25] with anything. If you’re not happy with it, you’re not certain with it. You bury your head in the sand. So let me take you on that journey of certainty. Let [00:43:30] me show you how I’ve measured. You tell me it’s fair. Tell me it’s unfair. Tell me the nuance that I [00:43:35] don’t know behind what you do. Because if I can see your hourly rate currently is 850 an [00:43:40] hour. But I can see all these.

Payman Langroudi: Daily.

Bilal Ahmed: Hourly rate. Sorry. Yeah, a daily rate. But if I can [00:43:45] see. Thank you for correcting me because that.

Payman Langroudi: Would have made.

Bilal Ahmed: A difference a big difference. But if I can [00:43:50] see your open treatment plans in six month time are going to turn this around, then that’s a [00:43:55] different conversation altogether, because now it’s a conversation of who’s going to speak to the open treatment plans. Do we need a pico? [00:44:00] Do we need a patient coordinator treatment coordinator to do this? Because one of the key metrics for us for [00:44:05] any practice isn’t the number of big ticket items. It’s your number of distinct patients and number of new [00:44:10] patient assessments. Because new patient assessments tell me what the business is going to do six months from now. Your big ticket items [00:44:15] are going to tell you you’re gonna pay your bills at the end of the month. So so your best barometers, especially this time of year [00:44:20] where everyone’s trying to do offers, I really want everyone to come in for assessments because then you [00:44:25] can treatment plan them. You can get them booked in for the end of Jan into Feb. And that then tells me you’re gonna have the best Q1 you’ve [00:44:30] ever had, because it’s not about beating people with sticks, it’s about showing them how we’ve how we’ve assessed [00:44:35] it. Because if you can’t improve, if you can’t measure it, you can’t improve it. But this is where the skill is. We’re not just we’re [00:44:40] not just here to look at raw numbers, because if the world was left to accountants, we’d all we’d all be on the trains and buses and nobody would [00:44:45] enjoy cars. Right. So, so like, sports cars aren’t built by accountants. Ferraris aren’t built, built, by [00:44:50] the accounting team, built by people who are enthusiasts, who love what they do and engineers. And sometimes [00:44:55] you can tell the accountants get out of the way.

Bilal Ahmed: Mine isn’t to stop anything. Mine is to quantify that says, if [00:45:00] I can show you and then you as the entrepreneur, you as the CEO, you as the person who’s got the feel of your business and your [00:45:05] staff tells me to go stuff it. You’ll see it work. By all means, let’s do it. And then now, if you’re [00:45:10] going to do it anyway. All I’m trying to do is mitigate the risk. That’s all. I’m trying to look as accountants, we’re all risk averse. We [00:45:15] have it drummed into us. If it can go wrong, it probably will go wrong. So when I’m building a business plan for a practice [00:45:20] I’m not looking at, best case scenario, I’m looking at breakeven points. Your job is to look at best case scenario, [00:45:25] because if things are now going better, we now need to recruit. But I need to know you can pay your bills. I need to know you can pay [00:45:30] yourself. I’m not trying to. I’m not trying to say each surgery is going to do 2 to 5 per day for five days, because [00:45:35] we’re all living in la la land there. But I can show you what that journey looks like. So look, it does go wrong, but [00:45:40] it’s how do we mitigate the downside. And by accountants we’re super pessimistic. So [00:45:45] a lot of the downside is mitigated just by us being pessimistic anyway. And sometimes, you know, [00:45:50] have we made wrong decisions in the past? Yes. Can we recover from them? Yes. [00:45:55] Is there anything we’re going to do that’s going to put your business on its ass? No, we don’t get into any of that. It’s not. We wouldn’t [00:46:00] we? We’d be out of business.

Payman Langroudi: Associates retain you as well.

Bilal Ahmed: Associates do retain us. Yeah. So [00:46:05] I’m meeting with one Tuesday evening, do some forward planning. So 12, 18 months. [00:46:10] He’s had a couple of he’s had an expensive two years. And now he wants to know where he can put his money thereafter. [00:46:15] So I won’t get into financial advice. I won’t say.

Payman Langroudi: So. What are common mistakes associates [00:46:20] make from the from the, you know, tax and business?

Bilal Ahmed: Two I mean, [00:46:25] two things. One is they don’t treat themselves as a true business. They treat themselves as contractors. Because [00:46:30] if you don’t know what goal you’re setting yourself, then what are you working towards? [00:46:35] You’re just sort of ambling through and then and then you’ll let’s [00:46:40] say the associate journey is you’ll qualify, you’ll probably do. First year will be, what, [00:46:45] 7% NHS, 30% private, it’ll start petering out towards more private by about 30. You’ll do mostly [00:46:50] private. It’s certainly the journey that we see with our associates. Our demographic is skewed because they’re [00:46:55] the more entrepreneurial dentists who want more hands on. We typically don’t deal with like 100% dentists because [00:47:00] their needs and wants are different to what we can offer them. But then you’ve got what now? So a [00:47:05] lot of them will now start focusing heavily on the hourly rate and reducing the amount of clinical days. So they’ll [00:47:10] want to get to about three and a half days clinical maintain income level. So that then says specialism. How [00:47:15] do I value my time. What courses should I be then going on. Then they’ll hit a point that says I’ve got this excess liquidity. What do I now do with [00:47:20] it? I can’t tell you to invest in. Well, I can tell you to put money into your pension. I can’t [00:47:25] tell you what pension product to use. I can’t tell you to invest in property. But if you wanna invest in property, I can show you the best way to do it. [00:47:30] And then the idea is, as long as we’re talking ahead of time, then this is the journey you should take.

Bilal Ahmed: The [00:47:35] biggest mistake associates make within this is not looking at it like that. It’s not looking at the hourly rate, not valuing [00:47:40] their time discounting and then not planning ahead, not looking beyond month by month. Because [00:47:45] I asked this every time I do a presentation is not show of hands. If it’s around a bank holiday, how [00:47:50] many of you planned your bank holiday weekend? Hands go up. How many? You know how many times you planned your birthday? Hands go [00:47:55] up. And how many of you go on holiday? Hands go up. Have you planned for that? How you get to the. How you [00:48:00] get to the airport. Um. Where are you going to stay. What flight you’re going to take? Where are you going to eat? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. How many [00:48:05] of you planned your businesses? Crickets. Crickets. And you’ll 1 or 2 hands [00:48:10] go up. So why are you not looking at it like a business? How are you? Why are you not valuing your time? Why [00:48:15] are you not looking at things like marketing for your own, for your own social media, or your own marketing endeavours [00:48:20] so people know who you are, what it is you do? Because there’s 43,000 dentists in the UK, there’s 55 [00:48:25] million people over the age of 18 in the UK. And that’s what, 1300 people per [00:48:30] dentist in the UK. How are you speaking to your 1300? Because you only really need five of them to come see you, and [00:48:35] then you’ve got a rolling, you know, you’re seeing them on a on an annualised basis.

Bilal Ahmed: And then then we’re looking [00:48:40] at lifetime journey. We’re looking at patient recalls. How many of your patients are you actively bringing back in? [00:48:45] Because once you start getting into the weeds of that, that’s when you become a principal. Because once you’ve exhausted [00:48:50] all of that as an associate, and now you’re frustrated with the practice because it’s not on the same journey as you, that’s [00:48:55] when you should open your own practice because you’ve done what you’ve done it, or you’ve treated yourself as a business within a business, and then [00:49:00] you should do that. That’s what that’s the biggest issue that associates aren’t making. But again, financial literacy [00:49:05] is low because they’ve never been taught it. They’ve been dropped in at the deep end. They uncomfortable [00:49:10] with it. So they bury their head in the sand. We chase. We want we you know, we want to be speaking to our clients [00:49:15] on a rolling six month basis the same way. Look, you want me to brush my teeth twice a day and come see you every six months? But [00:49:20] you’re not going to be in my bathroom checking my toothbrush is wet, right? I want you to speak to me every six months. Speak to me three months [00:49:25] before the end of the year so we can plan your year end. Close what options you can take before the end of the year to maximise tax efficiency. [00:49:30]

Bilal Ahmed: Talk to me three months after so we can use so we can wrap up the year that was we can set the scene for the year [00:49:35] that’s coming. You get into that tax becomes a known certainty, then put your money aside. Don’t worry about it. [00:49:40] And then we’ve got associates who take us on and engage basis. We want to speak to us every single month. We want to [00:49:45] go through the numbers. We want to go through how much money they should have set aside for tax. But we’ve got we’ve got one associate who [00:49:50] just pays his money. He’s just got HMRC on a direct debit that says I’d rather just pay them [00:49:55] and not have to think about it and not have to think about a lump sum that goes out. So I just pay them an amount. If I’ve overpaid, I get it back. [00:50:00] If I’ve underpaid, I top it up. That’s a good way to do it. Because they pay you interest. They pay you interest on it as well. So. Oh do [00:50:05] they. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s not taxable I don’t know don’t quote me on that. I don’t think it’s taxable income from HMRC [00:50:10] anyway. So it’s quite cool from that perspective. So you know where this goes. Well is [00:50:15] we sat down with one of our orthodontics orthodontist clients and we worked out once [00:50:20] he gets beyond 250 starts well we worked out on his own. He can’t do any more than 250 starts.

Payman Langroudi: He [00:50:25] starts.

Bilal Ahmed: Starts. And then we’re looking and he works across five practices and Fridays [00:50:30] are sacred for him. This is where the human element comes into it is look, I could say, of course you could do more than [00:50:35] 250 if you worked on Friday but doesn’t want to work a Friday. So it’s like, well, I’ve got to work with those within those constraints now. Fine. [00:50:40] He’s got family. He’s got more. Things are more important to him. So he’s like, right when you because you can’t [00:50:45] do any more and you’re in five places. You need a, a, um, orthodontic therapist. But [00:50:50] then at what point do you need an orthodontic therapist? And at what point do you need more of their [00:50:55] time? Yeah. So if you get to 300 starts, you probably need them a day a week. [00:51:00] If you get to 310, you probably need two days a week. But then we can work out where you can be, because now you can theoretically [00:51:05] be in two places at once and it works really well. And what he’s got down to a T is [00:51:10] his his journey. So he doesn’t do any of the restorative, doesn’t do anything like that. So if it goes back, goes back to dentist, it comes back to him and [00:51:15] he does really well from it. But that’s really looking at your business as a business and now saying I understand [00:51:20] what I can do. He understands his pricing, understands what he can charge. What that then allowed him to do was [00:51:25] put some money into marketing for the year. So he then committed about 25 grand to marketing and then agreed [00:51:30] with the principle to split on the the orthodontic therapist. But then it also meant we could then negotiate [00:51:35] his fee, his split, because if he’s incurring 24 grand marketing, the the practice then benefits for. And [00:51:40] he’s paying half of the therapist. Why should he still be on.

Payman Langroudi: Based on stats, right? So it’s a [00:51:45] more sort of cogent argument he’s putting to the principle.

Bilal Ahmed: Win win win has to be [00:51:50] a win win. Everyone wins from that conversation.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about squats, because they seem to be much more popular these [00:51:55] days. You know, the the goodwill values seem a bit, you know, inflated. [00:52:00] So a lot a lot of lot of squats I see opening up.

Bilal Ahmed: Not inflated at all. [00:52:05] Um, squat journeys work really well, so the best return on investment, pound for pound, is a squat.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. No, [00:52:10] no, I mean, goodwill values for existing practices seem high.

Bilal Ahmed: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So people are starting squats. [00:52:15] Yeah. But the, the sort of the pitfalls of that from the [00:52:20] way I look at it that don’t expect to make any money in the first 18 [00:52:25] months sort of thing. The cash flow sort of keep, keep staying alive in that period. Yeah. [00:52:30] Really is the key point.

Bilal Ahmed: So we do a lot of these. Yeah, we do a lot of these.

Payman Langroudi: Am I right about [00:52:35] that 18 months or.

Bilal Ahmed: It’s about 12 months. You can break even by by the end of month 12. And that’s with us being pessimistic. [00:52:40] Yeah. Um, we see them go really well, but the, the biggest, the biggest [00:52:45] factor.

Payman Langroudi: The marketing side, the money for that.

Bilal Ahmed: It’s the biggest success factor [00:52:50] for. And I’ll give you some I’ll give you sort of both sides of the coin. The biggest success [00:52:55] factor that we see with anything is someone who’s treated their associate business as a business, i.e. [00:53:00] as an associate. They they are responsible for most of their own patients and [00:53:05] will now convert that into a squat. The single best success criteria by the end [00:53:10] of month, by the end of year one, when.

Payman Langroudi: You say responsible is in their Instagram but brought those patients in. [00:53:15] Correct.

Bilal Ahmed: So their marketing, their Google, their website, their landing page. But I can tell you unequivocally, [00:53:20] by the end of year one, they will be a millionaire on paper. Because if you’ve got an associated practice [00:53:25] that generates 150 grand EBITDA at the end of year one, you’ll be worth just over [00:53:30] £1 million seven times. Multiply will see you do that if you’re a principle led practice. And then we’re looking at three and a half [00:53:35] times multiplier. You’ve got to be doing about 300 grand and you’ll be a millionaire by the end of year one. Now, [00:53:40] those those numbers aren’t aren’t unrealistic and they’re not crazy, but they are [00:53:45] the exception. They are not the rule. And everyone thinks, uh. Whenever [00:53:50] I have a consultation with someone that [00:53:55] opens a squat, my first question is, why do you want to do this? And if you say the words clinical freedom to [00:54:00] me, I will turn off the call. I will get off the call. I’m not going to spend any more time on this call. If you use the word clinical [00:54:05] freedom, if you use any antonym, anything, anything around the phrase [00:54:10] clinical freedom, you are not ready to open up a squat practice because it does not give you clinical freedom. [00:54:15] It doesn’t. You are beholden. Well, it might give you clinical freedom.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, you can get clinical freedom from an [00:54:20] existing practice. What’s the difference?

Bilal Ahmed: It frustrates me. I think it’s a cop out answer. And I don’t think I think [00:54:25] it’s I think it’s I think.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe they didn’t understand your question.

Bilal Ahmed: No, no. I asked them the number one motivation and they talk [00:54:30] about clinical freedom. The principle doesn’t let me do the things the way I want to do them. I want to go do them myself. All right. Fine. Whose patients are [00:54:35] they? They’re not yours. You’re not on the patients? Yeah. So how many of those patients [00:54:40] came in to see you specifically? Uh, well, you know, I get a couple of referrals. No, no. How many? Quantify it. How many of the [00:54:45] patients that you saw last year. So I’ve got your accounts in front of me. You netted about £150,000 last year, and [00:54:50] now you think you grossed about 450. Therefore, the practice took all their bit. You’re now thinking about what you’ve [00:54:55] left on the table. And that’s why you want to open a practice. Because all the money that you left behind. Fine. How [00:55:00] much? How much do you think you’d make as a principal? Doing the same sort of thing? Well, I’d make more. I’d make 450. No, you’d gross [00:55:05] 450. You’ve still got to pay wages. You’ve still got to pay labs. You’ve still got to pay HR. You’ve still got to pay marketing. You’ve still got to pay legal. [00:55:10] You’ve still got to pay HMRC. You’ve still got to pay the waste, the waste waste disposal, [00:55:15] you’ve got to pay rent rates, all that kind of stuff. Yeah. How much you think you’re actually gonna be left with at the end of it? Because I can [00:55:20] tell you on about 450 you’ll be left with about 20% of it after you’ve paid the associate.

Bilal Ahmed: But if you’re the [00:55:25] associate, you’re left. You’re left with a bit more because you haven’t got that cost. But where are you gonna get that 450 from? So [00:55:30] that’s 2250 per day, four days a week, 48 weeks a year. The reason we use [00:55:35] that metric because it’s about 74% occupancy. Where are you going to get your 450 from? Where are you going to make [00:55:40] about 285 an hour. And then never got an answer. They’ve almost never got an answer. So that’s what [00:55:45] you should be focusing on because as an associate where you are currently, if you looked at it like that, [00:55:50] you’d make more money as an associate straight away. If you treat your business within a business, you’d make more money straight away, [00:55:55] because then you should then look at opening up a school principal benefits you benefit, everyone benefits. [00:56:00] You’re in a risk free environment that says if it goes tits. Pardon my language. If it doesn’t go very well, [00:56:05] then what have you lost? The 24 grand you might put in marketing. If it goes wrong as [00:56:10] a squat, it goes very wrong and your house is on the line. But where we can see for [00:56:15] squat journeys, we do a lot of this, um, with people that want to open squats is we get into the meat and [00:56:20] bones of why they want to do it. What are their motivations? Have they truly considered [00:56:25] what it takes to be a squat to open up a squat?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So what are the what do people not realise [00:56:30] that like the the how quickly they’re going to get patience piece. [00:56:35] I think it’s.

Bilal Ahmed: Honestly I think I’m going to get a lot of stick for this is I think a lot of [00:56:40] its hubris is I make this much money as an associate. I’m going to go do this for myself. [00:56:45] Yeah, but they don’t really consider where it’s going to come from.

Payman Langroudi: But let’s say they they want to do it. By the way, a lot of times [00:56:50] it’s a, it’s a control thing as well. Yeah. Like there’s a particular patient journey that [00:56:55] you imagined or even sometimes as ridiculous as not ridiculous as this [00:57:00] particular decor and building that you like, you know, that you want to make if.

Bilal Ahmed: Your [00:57:05] goal is that patient journey. Yeah, I’d say open up a squat. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because now I’ve decided to do it. [00:57:10] What’s the common mistake that people make around like, do people overestimate how many [00:57:15] patients are going to walk through?

Bilal Ahmed: No. So they they underestimate the size of the probability [00:57:20] on the back of it. They underestimate the size of the task for marketing. They they underestimate when they should [00:57:25] be marketing. And this is this is where we’d put them in touch with someone at Prav, for instance, beforehand. [00:57:30] So when it’s a conversation, go speak to Prof. Because the reason why I like talking to Prof. Is Prav approach is marketing [00:57:35] the same way I do numbers that there’s a there’s a science behind it. There’s, there’s there’s a flow. There’s, you know talk to people little [00:57:40] and often and good things happen on the back of it. So I’ll give you some really bad examples where you’ve got, [00:57:45] um, four partners who’ve set up a squat and they’ve all they’ve [00:57:50] overspent, you know, they didn’t have a budget to start with. They’ve put about 500 grand into a squat. That should [00:57:55] cost them 350 grand. They’re going to open next week and they’ve not got anything. They’ve got no marketing. So how are people [00:58:00] going to know you exist? So, you know, by virtue of the fact that you’re on the high street, fine. It could [00:58:05] work.

Payman Langroudi: And they will come mentality.

Bilal Ahmed: Yeah. So that’s [00:58:10] where the frustration for someone like me is that says I can’t quantify this. I can show you what your run rate costs are. I can show you what overhead costs. [00:58:15] I can tell you how many patients you need to break even, but I can’t tell you how to get them. And now, where are you [00:58:20] now? Because they’ve overspent on the practice there now. Reluctant to spend any more money on marketing when they’ll have spent 25 [00:58:25] grand on a sign like, what good is a sign if nobody knows you’re there? Why, [00:58:30] why why have you used the most expensive tiles for your bathrooms when nobody knows you’re there? [00:58:35] So, you know, there’s certain things that you should focus on beforehand. So there’s things like if [00:58:40] you’re going to open a squat, do you do you recognise you’d have your staff in place of party staff probably three months [00:58:45] before you open. So they’re contacting all these inquiries and waiting list people so that you’ve [00:58:50] got someone to see from day one. And it’s not about doing Invisalign open days. It’s not about doing implant [00:58:55] open days. No, it’s about new patient assessments. Get them to come in. If you believe in your journey and you believe [00:59:00] in this beautiful thing that you’ve built, show people.

Bilal Ahmed: Get them in a new patient assessment and create a [00:59:05] compelling offer for the new patient assessment. Walk them through the journey, get them signed up to a plan, and then get them in [00:59:10] hygiene. And then when they come back in, do the treatment plan with them and show them. But don’t scare them with a 15 [00:59:15] grand treatment plan because it’s going to run away. But you’re now if you’ve done this badly, you’re trying to convert everything [00:59:20] that walks through your door. But it’s lifetime value of patient. We know if over a decade this patient’s going to be worth [00:59:25] 1015 grand, then let’s let’s focus on the reds. Let’s focus on, on on the restorative first. [00:59:30] Then we move into the ambers, the nice to haves, you know, a bit of amalgam that we need to take out. You know, there’s a crown that might fail whilst [00:59:35] we’re doing this one. We might as well. Do you want to replace both? We might want to replace some fillings. Do you wanna look at whitening, all that kind of stuff. [00:59:40] Fine. We’ve done all that. Now let’s look at the nice to haves, the cosmetic stuff. You know, the bonding, the veneers, the the Invisalign [00:59:45] or anything like that. But if you throw it all out right at the start, you’ll scare him off.

Bilal Ahmed: It doesn’t work. So again, [00:59:50] where does this go wrong? Is we were working with a practice that was musical differences [00:59:55] towards the end, where they were charging nearly a grand for three fillings. So you can’t charge [01:00:00] a grand for three fillings because that will be probably the first time the patients needed anything from you. They’ve [01:00:05] reluctantly paid it because there’s a reason they need those three things. There might be pain, there might be something that, but then they will go everywhere [01:00:10] else because you’ve immediately given an anchoring price to all your services. So [01:00:15] it’s like there’s no need to charge a grand for three fillings. It’s about 450, realistically. But if you’ve got now [01:00:20] every patient going on finance with fillings and declining or failing, then they go to practice [01:00:25] down the road that says, hold on, we’ll do it for £400. You’ll never see that patient again. So lifetime value is only as good as [01:00:30] the patients you can retain. Show them what you’re doing and show them what you’re doing in the back of it. So there’s the expectation [01:00:35] that we’ll do open days. They’re horrible. It’s a bad way to start. It’s about new patient assessments [01:00:40] slow burn, brighter burn. But marketing and then.

Payman Langroudi: A kind of dispute what you’re saying [01:00:45] there around the things. I mean, if my positioning is that my positioning is expensive dentistry, [01:00:50] then that’s my positioning.

Bilal Ahmed: Who are you telling? So if you’re if you’re if your position is expensive dentistry and you’ve done no [01:00:55] marketing.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, you’ve got to do marketing.

Bilal Ahmed: This is the other side. But if you’re doing any marketing. [01:01:00] So my wife and I, so my wife and I, we’re gonna open a practice. Every time we’ve gone to practice we’ve had another kid. So this is [01:01:05] probably it’s probably God telling us something here. So we were going to buy a two surgery. What in essence, [01:01:10] what was a squat in not off the high street. So it was recessed back. But we [01:01:15] were going to do it as super private private dentistry in Cheshire. Yeah, yeah. Inhale. So it had private [01:01:20] car park. You could drive in. You could drive in. We’d drop the shutters. Nobody know you’re there. Yeah. [01:01:25] Super private private dentistry is what we were going to do. But my wife has nearly 30,000 followers on Instagram. [01:01:30] She has been only she has only been seeing her patients for maybe the last five years [01:01:35] that see her specifically for what she does. So if we then created a marketing message around that, it [01:01:40] would have taken longer to achieve. But I was happy to bankroll it and cover the losses [01:01:45] up until we got it to where we wanted to get to because we knew it would work. I don’t know, the baby didn’t do it. No, [01:01:50] it’s God telling us other things, but this will answer your question. If that’s your offering, then fine, because we’ve [01:01:55] got clients who do this, but their messaging is on is on. That brand is on is on that. Yeah, it’s on message. But [01:02:00] this practice specifically, it wasn’t it was just we just put our prices up every year. There was no logic [01:02:05] behind it. There was no, no, no because their prices, their implants was really competitive. The price of their Invisalign was super competitive. [01:02:10]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bilal Ahmed: But it was like daft things like, why are your crowns 850 but your fillings are three crowns [01:02:15] up. Drop your fillings.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. No, I see it sometimes in whitening as well. Sometimes. Yeah. Some [01:02:20] some are charging, I don’t know, £850 for enlightened, but then less than [01:02:25] that for a crown. You know, it makes sense. Yeah, yeah. What about treatment specific? Have you [01:02:30] found there are some treatments that the margins are higher?

Bilal Ahmed: Oh, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: So we work with [01:02:35] obviously the corporates have these softwares that can tell them that. And whitening is right [01:02:40] up there. Right. In terms of huge.

Bilal Ahmed: So when we spoke previously about [01:02:45] one of the key success factors for practices is distinct patients. So a distinct patient [01:02:50] is let’s say for instance I’ve come in as a new patient assessment on that new patient assessment. I’ve then had hygiene and [01:02:55] then I’ve gone to take a treatment, let’s say filling for instance. And that’s three visits. We would only class that as one. [01:03:00] So a distinct patient would be one. Yeah. So one distinct patient. So over a 12 month period Bill’s [01:03:05] been in three times. We can’t use one. So what we’re always looking at is distinct patients in the period because it takes out the inefficiency [01:03:10] inefficient use of surgeries. Yeah. The other thing we’re then looking at is new patient assessments. Yeah. So those two [01:03:15] things yeah that then kicks down into two criterias is we’re looking at fillings and [01:03:20] whitening. So we’re looking at uptake on fillings of whitening and whitening. Because we know those two things are good, [01:03:25] then it means my treatments in about six months time are going to work, because we know the correlation between people who take whitening to then take on [01:03:30] cosmetic dentistry is quite high. The two things are correlated. But then we also know things like the relationship between [01:03:35] crowns or fillings is really high. So what we’re looking at is proportion of crowns to fillings. So before we get into the weeds [01:03:40] of all these KPIs, with the practice that’s done, none of this, we’re probably only looking at 3 or 4 things at a time. [01:03:45]

Bilal Ahmed: Once they go green, we just monitor and we go on to something else. So where you’ve got [01:03:50] the technical term is sensitivity is how much can I push a price on something before [01:03:55] it becomes a unethical and B reduces uptake. So a crown for instance [01:04:00] is something we refer to as being inelastic is the reason why it’s so. It is elastic. The reason why it’s [01:04:05] the demand doesn’t change based on price to a point. So if you’re charging [01:04:10] 550 for a for for for an Emax crown for instance, you really depending on outside London you could [01:04:15] get to 859 liquid and it doesn’t decrease uptake. But what is the cost of an [01:04:20] Emax crown? About 160. What is your margin on that now? Super high. How [01:04:25] much? How much time is that patient taking? Very little compared to everything else. Crowns [01:04:30] make millionaires more crowns you fit, the more profitable you are. We like good general [01:04:35] dentistry. As a firm of accountants, we like good general dentistry. If your good general dentistry is [01:04:40] operate in about 220 an hour and you’re overlaying it with big ticket items, you’ve got [01:04:45] a fantastically run practice and then you’ve got things like whitening. And we know the uptake on [01:04:50] the correlation between things like whitening and cosmetic treatment is high. So you don’t need to pull the pants down everyone that [01:04:55] walks through your door whitening.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Although, you know, let’s say I’m doing a crown for £600. [01:05:00] Yeah. And then let’s say that it was elastic. [01:05:05] And every time I raised the price, fewer people go for it. Yeah. Which isn’t the case. But [01:05:10] in health, in health and beauty, there’s almost an inverse relationship. But let’s say it was let’s [01:05:15] say I now start charging 1200 from my crown. Yeah. And let’s say [01:05:20] it’s directly proportional and half the people don’t go ahead because [01:05:25] I’ve doubled the price. Yeah, yeah, I’m still better off. Correct. [01:05:30]

Bilal Ahmed: Because you’ve got your increased share time maximisation. Because now you create capacity in your diary, which means you don’t need to open as [01:05:35] longer. You don’t need to run as many.

Payman Langroudi: Lab costs less. I’m still better off.

Bilal Ahmed: You are better.

Payman Langroudi: Off. It’s [01:05:40] important to understand that, right? You know, just the fact that some people won’t go ahead doesn’t necessarily [01:05:45] mean that I’m not better off.

Bilal Ahmed: So look, I’m probably going to piss people off saying this will upset people [01:05:50] by saying we put out prices, we’re going to go through exercise, we’re putting our prices up. So we’ve got clients who’ve been with us from when we opened [01:05:55] an obscenely low price. Yeah, but I know I could put my price up to a point where they’ll leave [01:06:00] and I don’t want them to go. Yeah, because we’re a service led business. Yeah, but I’m not expecting all of [01:06:05] them to take it up. And some of them will leave and we’ll wish them all the best. But in order to offer [01:06:10] the level of service that we want, we have to charge the price that we’re going to have to. Yeah, there’ll still be a discount on it for any existing [01:06:15] clients. But what it then means is, you know, we don’t we don’t need all of them to take it up. So if I put my prices [01:06:20] up, 20% and 10% of them leave still up, because I’ve got costs [01:06:25] as a business and my wages are increasing year on year, my corporation tax has gone up. Employers, national insurance, [01:06:30] pension contributions, all those things just keep increasing like HMRC have put up some of their baseline costs [01:06:35] nearly 100% and our AML and anti-money costs are going to go up 33% [01:06:40] this year just by HMRC taking it back in house, which is frustrating. So we have to review our pricing, [01:06:45] not because I want more money from it, it’s because I have to because our input costs have gone up. And that’s [01:06:50] the other thing is a lot of practices are resistant to put their prices up for that reason is, oh my God, people are not going to take it. But it’s [01:06:55] okay because you don’t need to convert everyone. You just need to know what your conversion metrics need to be so you can [01:07:00] have the confidence to make those decisions.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Is it true? Um, self-assessments changing. [01:07:05] Yeah. To what, four times. Five times a year.

Bilal Ahmed: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:07:10] it’s good for you guys. No no.

Bilal Ahmed: No. God, I.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t [01:07:15] want to do it. So that’s the high ticket items? No, it’s not even that. No, it’s.

Bilal Ahmed: Chasing [01:07:20] people once. They chase you five times now.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right. People ignore you to chase you.

Bilal Ahmed: Well, [01:07:25] exactly. So there’s.

Payman Langroudi: So how is this happening? For sure? Or is it something they think is happening?

Bilal Ahmed: Well, [01:07:30] 100% happening for sole traders currently. So if it will be based on [01:07:35] your 2425 return. So the returns that are going in now. Um, so if that figure shows more than 50 [01:07:40] grand from 1st of April, you will. Revenue, revenue top line.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah. Yeah. [01:07:45] So that’s everyone, which is everyone.

Bilal Ahmed: Yeah. Every sole trader. You’ll have to do four returns a year, so it’s not as [01:07:50] ominous as it sounds. So we all of our clients are on bookkeeping software. So we [01:07:55] don’t do anyone on paper. We don’t. That’s part of our assessment criteria, is you’ve got to be comfortable using tech, [01:08:00] and you’ve got to be able to use it and make sense of it all. So we take a zero.

Payman Langroudi: Awesome.

Bilal Ahmed: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s it [01:08:05] depends.

Bilal Ahmed: On complexity of business. So if you’re a practice we’d put you on zero. If you’re an associate we’d put you on something called freeagent, [01:08:10] which might suggest it’s free, but it’s not. It’s like, I think it’s like £20 a month, [01:08:15] unless you’ve got a qualifying bank account and then it’s free, which, if you don’t have to pay for something, don’t pay for it. Right. Um, [01:08:20] but we can then take a live feed from your bank account so we can then see [01:08:25] what you’re spending and what you’re what your income is. And that’s what we want to see on a quarter. That’s what HMRC [01:08:30] want to see on a quarterly basis. So it’s your income and expenses. Push a button. Send it up [01:08:35] there saying current release not going to change when you pay tax.

Payman Langroudi: Oh so it’s not like a self-assessment.

Bilal Ahmed: No, [01:08:40] it’s just a declaration of income and expenses on a quarterly basis. Then the fifth one is your [01:08:45] big wrap up and your tax is still due Jan and July. So that’s that’s remaining unchanged. [01:08:50] Um, and it’s trading income. And then if you’re a partnership you don’t have to go into it. Um, [01:08:55] but it’s if your income from trading income exceeds that, then you’ll do five returns a year. Yeah. [01:09:00]

Payman Langroudi: So a regular associate needs to.

Bilal Ahmed: A regular associate that operates [01:09:05] as a sole trader will have to do these from next year from from the 1st of April. So on a quarterly on a quarterly [01:09:10] basis. But if you’re you’re the type of associate that pays £200 [01:09:15] for your tax return and gives everything to your accountant in January, that you’re going to have to change. Yeah, that’s [01:09:20] not going to work.

Payman Langroudi: That’s not gonna work anymore.

Bilal Ahmed: Not going to work anymore. And then the threshold for the following year drops to 30 K. [01:09:25] The threshold for the year after drops to 20 K.

Payman Langroudi: One last area that seems [01:09:30] to confuse me and a lot of people is the question of expensing. [01:09:35] Like if I, if I take out 30 of my customers for dinner. Yeah. [01:09:40] Am I cool to expense that. So. Another [01:09:45] example we do a course. Yeah 30 people come to the course. The course the middle [01:09:50] of the course is dinner. Yeah I paid for that as the course organiser.

Bilal Ahmed: Let’s, let’s, let’s take those two examples. [01:09:55] So one one. Yes one.

Payman Langroudi: No okay.

Bilal Ahmed: Okay. So no if, if [01:10:00] you took me out for dinner now uh, actually let’s say.

Payman Langroudi: You took.

Bilal Ahmed: Let’s say, [01:10:05] let’s say you took you I don’t know, you had people come visit the site, and as part of the site, you went and took them out for dinner. [01:10:10] Five people. You paid for the dinner. That class is business entertaining. The company can pay for it, but you [01:10:15] have to deduct that amount from your tax return. Yeah, so the company can still pay for it. You still use company’s funds? Yeah. Company [01:10:20] can’t claim tax relief on it, which is weird, right? So it reduces your tax [01:10:25] bill. So accounting profit isn’t the same as taxable profit.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I see.

Bilal Ahmed: So let’s say you made a hundred grand profit this year. [01:10:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bilal Ahmed: Within that number will be things like depreciation amortisation and non tax deductible. So we add them all back [01:10:35] on and we remove your capital allowances. Gets us to taxable profit. So there is always a difference. So your [01:10:40] accounts might show a hundred grand profit of which you’ve spent five grand entertaining people throughout the year. You can’t claim that. [01:10:45] Yeah. So it just gets added back on. You pay tax on 105 K. Your course example for instance, [01:10:50] is different. Your course example is different. So where your course example differs is that cost [01:10:55] for paying for your delegate’s food is part of your PNL for your course. So they pay whatever [01:11:00] they pay to attend the course, and within that the enlightened will pay for, I don’t know, accommodation [01:11:05] and food and travel and everything else, and we’ll pay tax on the difference because that’s baked [01:11:10] into the offering. So it’s different. So where are you just taking people out for dinner willy nilly. Company can pay for [01:11:15] it. You can’t expense it. So it stops people doing things like, I don’t know, taking everyone out for corporate events [01:11:20] and then claiming the tax relief on it. So it stops people doing things like that. If it’s your staff, then [01:11:25] it’s different because you can do it for your staff. So there’s a couple of things you can do for your staff. First [01:11:30] is you have something called an annual party allowance. It’s referred to as Christmas party, but it’s not limited to Christmas parties. [01:11:35] You have £150 a head limit per year per staff [01:11:40] member, plus a guest.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Bilal Ahmed: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So? So if I want to go £250 per [01:11:45] head, that doesn’t.

Bilal Ahmed: Know. So once it goes, if it exceeds £150 even by a penny, [01:11:50] then the whole thing becomes disallowable. And it’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Whole.

Bilal Ahmed: Thing. Yeah. Then it’s subject to benefit in kind tax [01:11:55] because it’s then you’ve seen to giving your employees a benefit.

Payman Langroudi: Is that.

Bilal Ahmed: Right? Yeah. So that £150 again [01:12:00] doesn’t have to be just on the part. So you might do two parties a year. Yeah. And then that might be split 7575. You [01:12:05] might do two parties a year and it’s 5050. And then you’ve got what do you do with the other £50? Because you use it or lose it, [01:12:10] you could give them a hamper. Yeah, yeah. So you might do 5050 and a Fortnum Mason £50 hamper. As long as [01:12:15] it doesn’t exceed £150 then it’s fine. It’s £150 plus [01:12:20] a guest. So in essence you’ve got £300 per pairing.

Payman Langroudi: Oh plus.

Bilal Ahmed: Yeah. So it does. [01:12:25] It does. I mean you’d be hard pressed. I mean you’ve got like ten staff, you’ve got like ten, 15, 20 staff. That’s quite a big budget. You [01:12:30] start playing with um, that’s what we do. So but then if you like, we’ve got on Friday [01:12:35] we’ve got a staff event and within that we’ll take I’ll pay for the dinner. I’m paying for [01:12:40] all the Ubers and trains and all that, all that’s tax deductible because it’s holding exclusively for business. But [01:12:45] if I was going to have some guests or clients joining us and I pay for their lunch, I’d have to discount that bit. [01:12:50]

Payman Langroudi: What about. I’m I’m I find a Dental course in New York. I [01:12:55] want to go to it. And how [01:13:00] can I what can I expense everything to do with that trip?

Bilal Ahmed: I’ll give you a really interesting [01:13:05] case of this. So this is a HMRC documented case. And so the short answer is yes. So [01:13:10] if you go so go back to our start the conversation holding exclusively for business. It’s well [01:13:15] within the realms of your scope of practice.

Payman Langroudi: And okay what if I stay a few days extra. No. No [01:13:20] what.

Bilal Ahmed: Can’t claim the whole thing becomes disallowable.

Payman Langroudi: The whole.

Bilal Ahmed: Thing. Because now. Because within wholly, exclusively [01:13:25] comes the second rule that you’ve overlay called duality of Purpose. So what’s the main [01:13:30] premise of what you were doing was wholly and exclusively. Yeah. But now that you’ve added all this other stuff, you’ve now [01:13:35] crept into duality of purpose. When you creep into duality of purpose, you can do one of two things. You [01:13:40] can either claim proportionate amount or the whole thing becomes disallowable.

Payman Langroudi: So I can say those two days [01:13:45] were coarse, and those two days.

Bilal Ahmed: For business travel specifically. If it creeps into duality of [01:13:50] purpose, HMRC say no because everyone would, wherever they’re going on holiday, would go book a days course, [01:13:55] right. And so I’ll claim the proportion of that. So HMRC has cottoned on to this and [01:14:00] said no where business travel breaches duality of purpose. The whole thing [01:14:05] becomes disallowable.

Payman Langroudi: All right. I go to IDs in [01:14:10] Cologne with my business partner, and that night we go to Michelin Star restaurant and [01:14:15] have a £300 a head dinner. Yeah. Can. Can the company [01:14:20] pay?

Bilal Ahmed: Yes. Hmrc also then claim it has to be reasonable. But don’t give us a definition of what [01:14:25] is reasonable.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so it’s just depends on what.

Bilal Ahmed: Yeah. Basically. Yeah. So [01:14:30] so with that. So business travel is really so it’s a it’s a question that comes up constantly. So it’s let’s [01:14:35] say you’re going to go to New York for a five day course. In fact I’ll use a real example. [01:14:40] Brazil. You know they do the implant course in Brazil. You go out, you probably out there for two weeks, and you’re probably doing 40 cases [01:14:45] because you’ll do all of that. Let’s say you’re out for the for two weeks. You [01:14:50] can claim the 14 days of the course a day before and a day after. That’s it. Yeah. Because we [01:14:55] recognise jetlag.

Payman Langroudi: Travel and jetlag.

Bilal Ahmed: You know, you want to get set up. You don’t want to jump into it. Knackered. [01:15:00] So day before, day after 14 days off. So 16 days you can claim in total. You [01:15:05] can claim all the associated costs. So the cost of travel, getting to the airport. If you’ve [01:15:10] had to buy stuff when you’re out there, you can claim all of that as long as you don’t take the piss. So there is certain [01:15:15] allowances that.

Payman Langroudi: I want to take a week’s holiday after that. Yeah. No, no, I know, [01:15:20] I know, I just don’t claim that week. Right.

Bilal Ahmed: I just bought the flight. The return flight then [01:15:25] is is incidental. Or are you now jimmying the return flight on the back of it?

Payman Langroudi: So [01:15:30] these are the areas here where you need your accountant to say look by the letter of the [01:15:35] law, you can’t do this, but HMRC aren’t going to come after you if you do some [01:15:40] stuff like that. No, no. If you’re if you’re going to.

Bilal Ahmed: If you’re going to go do another week, let’s use a Brazil example. Yeah. And then [01:15:45] you’re going to do two weeks of the course. And then you’re going to go shadow a dentist for the other five days.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:15:50] But I want to go like a week to Rio and enjoy myself. Yeah.

Bilal Ahmed: As long as you don’t tell [01:15:55] me. The short answer is the the truth is the [01:16:00] letter of the law is if you then do a week after to enjoy yourself, it then becomes the whole thing becomes disallowable. Um, [01:16:05] and in specific circumstances, we could do something called pre-clearance with HMRC. [01:16:10] So let’s say that whole thing, that whole course with the cost of everything is 50 grand and you want to take [01:16:15] that week we would write to HMRC and say we present the facts, this is what’s going to happen. And they would [01:16:20] say yes but or no but or we, we use a third party. So there’s accounts for [01:16:25] accountants. They only talk to accountants and you have to postulate your questions a very specific way. Highlight the specific [01:16:30] references the cases and the the the HMRC guidance and the accounting standard that you [01:16:35] want clarification on. We present it to them. If they come back and say yes, then it’s a then it’s a [01:16:40] yes, it’s indemnified. Yes. If it’s a no then it’s a no and it’s a no. It’s a short answer but there’s a cost associated [01:16:45] to that. So then there’s a time value that says if all of this I’m going to save a grand in doing it, but [01:16:50] it’s going to cost me two and a half grand to get an answer. Then is it worth it? Right.

Payman Langroudi: And someone told me about this. [01:16:55] This must be illegal, right? He told me. Yeah. Um. My nanny who [01:17:00] looks after my kids is an employee of my company. So is [01:17:05] that illegal? That’s a benefit in kind. Right.

Bilal Ahmed: Let me answer. Let me answer the [01:17:10] question. In the realms of legality. Yeah, yeah. So. Who [01:17:15] you employ becomes irrelevant. You are not penalised for being a bad businessman. So [01:17:20] if you’ve got 15 employees on your books, but you only need 12, that is not a penalty. [01:17:25] That’s just you being a bad businessman, right? Yeah. Not not not not what I liked at the start of this, you went into whisper [01:17:30] tone.

Payman Langroudi: So I’ve heard this.

Bilal Ahmed: And I think it’s a little bit. That’s how all the questions start.

Payman Langroudi: Getting.

Bilal Ahmed: Their [01:17:35] head bobbing. I’ve heard this and it’s a bit. It’s a bit illegal. Whisper tone. Start setting in because you’re waiting for [01:17:40] me to tell you you can’t do it. So the short answer to this look, as long as they’re treated [01:17:45] like any other employee and there’s a genuine role for them to do, and there’s a contract that [01:17:50] states, this is your work, can they look after your kids as an employee? No, of course not. It’s a benefit in kind. [01:17:55] You shouldn’t be going anywhere near the accounts, but if you’ve got a genuine job for someone at your workplace [01:18:00] that happens to also then look after your kids whilst they’re there for half an hour after they come back, but they’re in office and [01:18:05] their office.

Payman Langroudi: If they’re nothing to do with the office, obviously not.

Bilal Ahmed: You can’t put it through the business. No, no, we get this [01:18:10] a lot. So, you know, we we get this a lot. My mate, my mate Dave down the pub said I can [01:18:15] do this.

Payman Langroudi: But it must be super frustrating for you, right? Because a lot of people [01:18:20] equate a good accountant with one that you end up paying the least tax. [01:18:25] And you could say a good accountant is the one that keeps you out of trouble the longest number [01:18:30] of years. You know, like whether it’s from the investigation perspective or from the, you know, early [01:18:35] warning perspective. Yeah. But I guess it’s like any business, [01:18:40] isn’t it? Like some some dentists are massively talented and can’t haven’t got chairside [01:18:45] manner. Yeah. And then and then the opposite as well. Yeah.

Bilal Ahmed: Taxes. Taxes. [01:18:50] Heavily nuanced. And if you’re basing I’ll give you some real examples. And we’ve [01:18:55] had to tell clients we’re not going to work with them, because if I take on the engagement, you are now breaching [01:19:00] so many laws that I’m obligated to report you, and I don’t want to get there. I don’t want to get there. [01:19:05] So we’ve heard some horrible things, man. So I’ll give you a real example. Client clients [01:19:10] been with us for years, and when they came to us, their existing [01:19:15] account was, I think it was on his deathbed. He was on his way out. He wasn’t responding. I think he was his of ill [01:19:20] health. He didn’t want to leave him, but their business was they needed support with the business. Right. So [01:19:25] I’m looking at the business and I went, why is your NHS contract running through your limited [01:19:30] company? And they went the accountant told us to do it that way. I went, we’ve got proof. No. Your [01:19:35] contracts in your name. There is no reason for that money to be [01:19:40] running through the limited company. You’ve not incorporated them into his contract. There’s no subcontract arrangement. And then you’ve not incorporated [01:19:45] the business anyway, because there should have been a capital gains tax issue event somewhere. I said, [01:19:50] show me your show me the calculation. We didn’t do it. And I went, whose name is sexy in [01:19:55] our names. So your business technically isn’t registered, because if it’s a limited company [01:20:00] that’s offering all the services and isn’t registered, and you are, if you get inspected, [01:20:05] they’ll shut you down and then they’re gone.

Bilal Ahmed: Fine. Fix it. [01:20:10] So fixed it had to redo three years worth of accounts and contact HMRC and explain to them what’s happened. Four years [01:20:15] on, I’m still trying to sort this out with HMRC. Four years on so I’m still trying to get what what I did was [01:20:20] I worked out all the taxes and I said the account made them pay 20 grand worth of corporation tax, which shouldn’t be there. [01:20:25] It should be on the sole trader and they’re like, fine, we’re not going to change it because it’s too much time has elapsed. [01:20:30] Too much time has lapsed because you keep losing my letters that I keep writing to you. And I can prove to you because I’ve got I’ve got [01:20:35] you signed for them within the time frame. Payman three years, I finally got [01:20:40] them to accept. We’re going to change it over because all this accumulating interest, once they accepted the wipe off the interest. [01:20:45] So it is what it is. So they’ve had to back pay about three and a half years worth of taxes, realistically, [01:20:50] because they’ve taken all the money out of the business anyway. They weren’t better off operating as a limited company, so we’ve had [01:20:55] to undo all this headache. So it’s it’s why even get yourself into that [01:21:00] process in the first place? It’s frustrating. And then we see we see we see things like um, [01:21:05] VAT is a massive one.

Bilal Ahmed: So when it comes to facial aesthetics or even aesthetics led businesses [01:21:10] and, um, dentistry, VAT is a nuance when you’re asking about what the what the accountant [01:21:15] and the accountant, especially within this space, is. Do you understand the nuance of VAT? So [01:21:20] where if if my business was just to sell enlightened smiles and you allowed [01:21:25] me to do it as a non dentist, and I sold it without any sort of clinical back, once my revenue hit £90,000, [01:21:30] I would have to register for VAT and I have to start charging VAT on all my [01:21:35] whitening kits. But if I’m a dentist and I include the whitening [01:21:40] kits as part of an overall treatment plan where the underlying is to treat or prevent an underlying condition and [01:21:45] qualified to do so, then it doesn’t become viable. And there’s so nobody [01:21:50] likes paying VAT. And you know, we were with we were going back and [01:21:55] forth with his client about his VAT because we do like we do an assessment. So they say, yeah, we want to go ahead with you. We go through the business and we’re just [01:22:00] making sure we’re ticking all our boxes. He went, well, typically what happens is I get to the end of the period and I want to pay about [01:22:05] this much. So I make the numbers work and I pay this much out. No, you can’t [01:22:10] do that.

Payman Langroudi: That’s not how it works.

Bilal Ahmed: That’s not how it works. It’s like, if I could do that, I’d love to do that. You can’t do it that way. It doesn’t [01:22:15] work. That’s just. That’s just fraud. You get inspected, you’ve got no basis to how you come [01:22:20] up with these numbers. It’s not going to work. And then you’ve got things like and within [01:22:25] the scope of specifically around with associates. And [01:22:30] the accounting side of things is when they’ve switched to limited company and [01:22:35] their contracts still in their name, they’re still paying into superannuation. They’re still they’re still getting pension [01:22:40] contributions. Well, then the two things don’t marry up and it wouldn’t [01:22:45] work. And that’s where that’s where things become really unstuck. And it becomes really, really difficult for us to fix, [01:22:50] where we will just say no to that to start with and say, look, it’s not worth us even get involved in and it’s not worth [01:22:55] the time or headache. Go back to your accountant to fix it.

Payman Langroudi: What’s been the sort of the most [01:23:00] scary thing you’ve seen in a dentist from from these perspectives?

Bilal Ahmed: Hmrc [01:23:05] general attitude towards money.

Payman Langroudi: Well either.

Bilal Ahmed: So we’re [01:23:10] pretty good at spotting clients. So my initial assessments we give everyone a free consultation. Yeah. [01:23:15] And what I’m looking for is can I work with this person. And are we on the same ethical [01:23:20] wavelength. Are we are are we you know, is there goal congruence in what we’re trying to achieve? Because [01:23:25] if your singular objective is to pay as little tax as possible. I’m not the accountant for you. Look, [01:23:30] I don’t want to pay a penny more than I have to. And I can promise you, you won’t pay a penny more than you have to. But I’m not going to promise a crazy tax bill at the back [01:23:35] of it. It’s just not. It’s not how any of this works legally, because tax is a mathematical certainty. Once you’ve got your expenses. [01:23:40] So that’s what I’m looking for. And then if we can talk about growth, scalability, [01:23:45] investment, exit value, that’s I’m all game for that. That stuff, you know, is me as an accountant, [01:23:50] as a nerd’s dream. That’s that’s that’s the kind of business I want to get involved in.

[TRANSITION]: So all all the schemes. Are [01:23:55] they all dodgy?

Payman Langroudi: This is the word. There’s a clue in the word, right? Yeah.

Bilal Ahmed: Anyone? [01:24:00] Anyone that comes across a scheme. Get the promoter to put it in writing. If [01:24:05] they put it in writing, then it’s probably legit. If they’re not going to put it in writing, then [01:24:10] that that’s your that’s your that’s your acid test straight away. They’re not gonna put it in writing. Get away from [01:24:15] it. Had a consultation with someone who told me about a scheme that he was putting. Money. Oh, this [01:24:20] is a cool one. This is. Say you want to invest your money and you don’t want to pay capital gains tax on your investment. [01:24:25] There’s a scheme you can invest in trees, nurseries [01:24:30] where it can grow. They sell, they sell the wood off, [01:24:35] and you pay no capital gains tax on your return. But you’re locking your money away [01:24:40] for what could be a decade or decades. And there’s super risky [01:24:45] because what it one bit of it could. It could all go to. It could all.

Payman Langroudi: Go. Well that’s [01:24:50] legitimate.

Bilal Ahmed: Legitimate. No capital gains tax on it. It was at the time. I don’t know what the updated bit is, but we tend [01:24:55] to stay away from schemes. Completely legitimate. However, what there’s [01:25:00] a nuance to this is if you’re selling the wood untreated or unprocessed, and it’s free [01:25:05] of capital gains tax if you’re now part of the processing, um, i.e. you’re going to turn it into something, [01:25:10] then it’s not. It just goes. It’s not it doesn’t benefit from exempt. No. So you’ve got to grow it, [01:25:15] get rid of it. Take the money on the harvest. But they were told by their financial advisor, not even [01:25:20] an accountant, they could deduct the cost of the investment across their taxable profit. [01:25:25] So if they made 50 grand and spent 50 grand on the scheme, they could offset the profit. And off [01:25:30] you go. And you pay no tax. No, no investment works that way. Investments are made after tax, [01:25:35] the post tax and you take the money. Because if you take capital gains tax benefit you now you double dipping the tax benefit doesn’t work [01:25:40] that way. Another scheme and this is a horrible one. And I did a video on it where um, [01:25:45] about £60,000 worth of back taxes and fines, where [01:25:50] the total tax you would have actually saved was about 35. So she’s about 25 grand down. And [01:25:55] what what this scheme is and we see this a lot.

Bilal Ahmed: And we’ve seen a lot of people get caught out with this because I think it was popular [01:26:00] maybe 10 or 15 years ago was remuneration trusts was you would set up a scheme whereby [01:26:05] you put money into remuneration trust. And I’m not going to go too much into it, but you [01:26:10] can then immediately borrow back off the trust. So let’s say on paper you put [01:26:15] let’s say your tax was 50 grand, so your taxable profit is 50 grand. And you want to wipe out 50 grand’s worth of [01:26:20] profit. You put five grand into the scheme, claim it as tax relief. Five grand comes back out and [01:26:25] you loan it back off the trust, and you put another five grand in, but another five grand in wash the same five grand around ten times. On [01:26:30] paper, you’ve made ten lots of five grand investments into the trust and then you claim it. But now you [01:26:35] owe the trust £50,000 and then you’ll never repay it. It’ll just falter. And then you claim the tax relief on it. [01:26:40] Bollocks doesn’t work. And a lot of people have been caught out with this and I’ve been stung with back taxes, [01:26:45] fines and penalties because like I was saying before, it’s 100. It’s up to 100% fine and interest [01:26:50] and penalties from the date first assessed.

[TRANSITION]: So what’s.

Payman Langroudi: Happened there? The guys asked his accountant [01:26:55] and his accountant said, yeah, go for it.

Bilal Ahmed: Probably two, probably two things is [01:27:00] I’ve heard from someone, you can do this. And then they put them in touch with their guy who’s gone and [01:27:05] done it, and they’ve got it done it through somebody.

Payman Langroudi: Just making a quick buck. Yeah. Sorting it out for people.

Bilal Ahmed: All the accountants [01:27:10] coming to them with a scheme and then putting me in touch with someone else to do it and saying, oh, look, I’ve got a [01:27:15] way you can do this. And then Teflon Don, they’ve got their hands clean of it. There’s no there’s no proof they [01:27:20] did it.

Payman Langroudi: There’s no link.

Bilal Ahmed: There’s no link. And your ultimate response because this is the thing that nobody really [01:27:25] gets it. Like if I went to a dentist and if I, God forbid, I took one of your kids and something bad happened, [01:27:30] you’re liable for that. You know, this is your product. It’s your name on your name, on your reputation, your brand, everything. [01:27:35] You go to an accountant to do your accounts. Unless you can prove they told you to. Dodgy. You’re [01:27:40] responsible. Especially with a limited company. As a director, you’re wholly responsible for those accounts. [01:27:45] You signed them off. You didn’t know what you were signing off. Hmrc does not accept ignorance as an excuse because [01:27:50] you have a fiduciary responsibility, a legal responsibility to look after the business [01:27:55] assets and the best interests of the shareholder might be the same person. Doesn’t doesn’t the letter of the law [01:28:00] doesn’t see it that way? So unless you can prove what the adviser or this person said to you, then [01:28:05] it doesn’t matter. But then if the other person’s got no legal recourse and it’s just a dude that does tax avoidance schemes, [01:28:10] what are they going to lose anyway? So if it sounds if it if [01:28:15] it sounds like if it flops like a horse, sounds like a horse, walks like a horse, it’s a horse. Let’s not [01:28:20] try to put it down as a zebra for tax purposes.

Payman Langroudi: And can we, can we finish with inheritance tax [01:28:25] or is that a lawyer thing?

Bilal Ahmed: No. Well, within the realms of what we do.

[TRANSITION]: So what’s [01:28:30] what’s a what’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Legitimate way to minimise inheritance tax.

Bilal Ahmed: There’s a couple of good ways. [01:28:35] So um, so inheritance tax, it should be on everyone’s mind. It [01:28:40] should always be on. Look, because every business you build, everything you acquire should always be thought to exit. And when [01:28:45] we’re talking about generational wealth, we’re talking about all the hardships of everything we’ve done has got to go somewhere, right? And we don’t [01:28:50] want the government taking 40% of it because it’s horrible. There’s a couple of ways to minimise inheritance tax. Effective tax [01:28:55] planning is really important to start with. So there’s certain allowances that you want to make use of. So everyone’s [01:29:00] got I think it’s 370,350 grand allowance everyone has. And then for your primary residence [01:29:05] you get another 1.5125. So theoretically husband and wife on the same house for £1 million. [01:29:10] Um, you can gift that to your kids and suffer no inheritance tax. And, you know, it’s not like when [01:29:15] Sonic gets hit, all the coins come out and then the government takes their bit. So there’s [01:29:20] effective ways to minimise this.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bilal Ahmed: So right now one of the.

Payman Langroudi: One the first million around [01:29:25] is, is is okay.

Bilal Ahmed: First million around that when when you consider primary residence. Yeah. Now we’re [01:29:30] talking about everything else. Okay. So there’s things like gifting. So the seven year rule. So what happens with the seven year [01:29:35] rule is that 40% diminishes across seven years. So by the time you get to the end of the seventh year, [01:29:40] there’s no capital gains tax to pay.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s completely legitimate.

Bilal Ahmed: Completely legal. Yeah, it’s effective tax planning. So [01:29:45] let’s say you’ve got a rental property and you want to gift it to one of your kids, gift it to one of your kids. And as long [01:29:50] as you stay alive for seven years no capital gains tax. Yeah. Perfect.

Payman Langroudi: And it tapers depending on how many years [01:29:55] you say correct.

Bilal Ahmed: It drops about 8% each year or eight points each year from about year two onwards. Yeah. [01:30:00] And then the there’s a specific bit of nuance around that. It [01:30:05] has to be a gift without reservation, i.e. I gift my kid [01:30:10] the property, but whilst I’m still around, I’ll take the rental income. You know, it’s your property. I’ll [01:30:15] take the I’ll cover. No, that doesn’t work. It’s a gift with reservation.

Payman Langroudi: Also the nuance [01:30:20] around if it’s the primary residence, if the place they’re living. Yeah, they have to start paying the kid [01:30:25] rent.

Bilal Ahmed: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Bilal Ahmed: Yeah. Yeah. Because. Because if the reservation is, if I’m not now [01:30:30] if I’m. Because how HMRC rules work around buy to lets or residential properties or non-residential properties residential [01:30:35] property but for rentals. Is if you gift me the and [01:30:40] I’m connected party. If I’m now paying below market rate, I still pay tax on the market rate rent. So [01:30:45] so people think, you know I’ll give it to my sister for £100 a month. No, because if the market rate says it was a grand, you still [01:30:50] pay tax on £900, or if it’s done through a company, then that difference is then subject to benefit and contacts [01:30:55] to you. So there’s some weird, wonderful things around that. Now where you’re in business is specifically [01:31:00] for dental practice owners. There’s a couple things that you want to do for inheritance tax. Historically, one of the most one [01:31:05] of the most exciting schemes was like a small self-administered scheme pension scheme where [01:31:10] you could put in 60 grand a year, and if it was like you and your wife owned or you and your partner owned the practice, [01:31:15] you put 120 grand a year tax deductible pension contributions, build up the money and go buy the [01:31:20] freehold off yourself because then pensions were outside of inheritance tax. It’s a fantastic scheme.

Bilal Ahmed: But [01:31:25] Labour had brought it in. So Labour so pensions is going to be a horrible one because [01:31:30] what people don’t realise is the additional administrative burden that’s going to come with it. Because if you’ve [01:31:35] been like for me, for instance, I had a number of jobs before I became self-employed. Someone’s [01:31:40] got to find all those pensions. Someone’s got to pay for that. And the the, the amount of cost that’s now incurred [01:31:45] with the state or like, um, probate is ridiculous because they get paid first, right? So [01:31:50] pensions now come inside of inheritance tax. What does all this mean [01:31:55] for effective lifetime planning? One of the biggest changes for entrepreneurs [01:32:00] is something called business. Um, business property relief. So [01:32:05] historically, you could transfer 100% of your trading business into a trust and incur no tax [01:32:10] on that transfer. Yeah, that that limit is now being tapered to the first million. [01:32:15] And then it’s 50% relief on anything over a million. So if you now want to look at long term [01:32:20] planning before the 1st of April, you want to look at trusts. Because where trusts now work outside of inheritance [01:32:25] tax is, um, you move everything in effective trust. I’m not going to get [01:32:30] much into the weeds of it because.

Payman Langroudi: There’s different ways to set it up.

Bilal Ahmed: There’s different ways. But you need legal. You need accounting. [01:32:35] You need you need specific people. But like my structure, for instance, I have my holding company that [01:32:40] owns my trading company and my shares and my other investments, my holding companies owned by my trust. And if [01:32:45] I pass, everything moves over to my trust. Um, and there’s no inheritance tax, but every [01:32:50] decade, there’s a 6% charge on the underlying asset value.

Payman Langroudi: Every [01:32:55] decade, 6% charge that you pay the government.

Bilal Ahmed: Yeah, you pay the [01:33:00] government. So this is what people don’t realise that trust is this magic way of not paying any tax. But no, [01:33:05] they still pay tax. It’s just calculated slightly differently. And over time it will balance out because 6% over 100 years [01:33:10] is you know, you now pay effectively 60%, right? Whereas if you just pay the 40% upfront then [01:33:15] you would in the long term you’d have been fine. Math doesn’t work that way because you haven’t lost [01:33:20] 40% of the underlying asset value from day one. The idea is you should be able to cashflow your assets in the trust, and [01:33:25] then as long as you’re putting 0.6% aside every year, then you should have enough by the end of the decade [01:33:30] to pay it up. And that’s effective financial management where the benefit of something like a trust comes into it [01:33:35] is you have control, but they’re not classed as gifted reservation. So [01:33:40] things like bloodline clauses so only beneficiaries of your specific bloodline can benefit from from [01:33:45] the trust.

Payman Langroudi: Not husband and wife. Divorce protected.

Bilal Ahmed: From divorce. Protect from litigation [01:33:50] protected from any underlying thing. Protected from stupidity. So if you gift your kid a [01:33:55] property, you stay alive for seven years. But by year four, they’ve got themselves into a spot of bother and that [01:34:00] property now disappears with them. Something you’ve worked your ass off for? Yeah, a trust protection from that to an extent. [01:34:05] But what it also gives you is I said, I think I’ve said it offline is I’ve got three kids. [01:34:10] The goal for me, everything I do is to make sure they, they enjoy a life that I’ve set [01:34:15] up for them and it preserves and it continues. So the incentive is you do not withdraw from the trust [01:34:20] unless you absolutely need to. And then once they reach a certain age, [01:34:25] they remove the trustees, so they become trustees and beneficiaries. And one of the things in there is [01:34:30] they have to agree in on everything in unison. Everything in unison has to be 100% vote every single [01:34:35] time. They can’t outvote one another, they can’t mistreat one another. And it means that they protect that. Look, realistically, [01:34:40] what’s going to happen is if I’ve got three kids, whatever I build up might divide nicely between three. They then [01:34:45] have three kids. Is the pot going to cover nine ways? Probably not. But if you teach them good financial [01:34:50] education from the start and then they then they’re now incentivised to not [01:34:55] only utilise the pot but grow the pot and not just take from the pot. That’s how you maintain generational wealth [01:35:00] and maintain everything you’ve worked your ass off for. That can continue to stand [01:35:05] the test of time. I think trust is liquidated after like 120 years anyway. Is that right? Yeah. So they all [01:35:10] sort of moves out. Again, don’t quote me on that. But it’s by the time [01:35:15] it’s done anything, the people who benefit will be strangers to me. Right. So you know, as long if I stay alive long enough, [01:35:20] I might, I might meet my grandkids or my great grandkids. Beyond that, everyone’s a stranger to me. [01:35:25]

Payman Langroudi: I like that. Let’s end it there, man. It’s been a massive pleasure [01:35:30] to have you.

Bilal Ahmed: Thank you for having me. It’s been fantastic.

Payman Langroudi: I’m glad you look like the average chartered accountant. I [01:35:35] like that it’s like my dad’s a chartered accountant. Oh, nice. But he looks. [01:35:40] He always has looked like the.

Bilal Ahmed: No, I refuse to do it, man.

Payman Langroudi: This is your USP, huh? [01:35:45] Just like to. To be like, an outlier, I think.

Bilal Ahmed: No, look, I want to talk to people [01:35:50] like people. Right? And people buy from people. People have to trust people. And I just want to dress comfortably, [01:35:55] man. It’s like it’s taking me two hours to get on the train. Why not? And I want to be comfortable when I’m doing it.

Payman Langroudi: But even on [01:36:00] your content and stuff, you’re like, you’re not. You’re not the normal archetype you want, one imagines.

Bilal Ahmed: No, [01:36:05] but I don’t think I went through that normal, archetypal journey. So like my dad, my dad was a butcher. [01:36:10] First generation immigrants. And the only thing I know is business. And I didn’t really suit the corporate [01:36:15] world very well. Um, I did well at what I did. You know, I was I won [01:36:20] awards with places I worked, but I think I just wanted to go and do stuff, and I [01:36:25] liked the impact. And I don’t play the game very well. I can’t do brown nosing. I can’t do any of that. [01:36:30]

Payman Langroudi: I just can’t.

Bilal Ahmed: I can’t. I just want to see. Action result, action result, action result. [01:36:35]

Payman Langroudi: That’s so much better having your own than. Yeah, definitely.

Bilal Ahmed: It’s way more fun as well. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing, [01:36:40] man.

Bilal Ahmed: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

Payman Langroudi: Really enjoyed that.

Bilal Ahmed: Appreciate you.

[VOICE]: This [01:36:45] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one [01:36:50] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:36:55] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:37:00] for listening guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just [01:37:05] a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to [01:37:10] say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you [01:37:15] did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share [01:37:20] this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so so much for listening. Thanks. [01:37:25]

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.