Month: May 2026

Payman Langroudi: Dental educational events need a shake up? I’m really happy to announce that we’ll be doing [00:00:05] a new event in June called The Minimalist Conference at Ministry of Sound, [00:00:10] where we’re going to have 30 speakers and two parties. It starts at 2:00 [00:00:15] and finishes at 2:00 as well on the 13th of June, which is Saturday. [00:00:20] Check out the Instagram page at minimalist dot join [00:00:25] us.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:40] hosts Payman Langroudi [00:00:45] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome [00:00:50] Ashley King and Sophie Lovitt onto the podcast from Pearl AI. [00:00:55] Um, nice to have you. Finally, both of you. Would you both do [00:01:00] at Pearl? What’s your job title and what’s yours?

Ashley King: Do you want. Job title [00:01:05] or what we actually do? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Go on. Both.

Ashley King: Well, I mean, this is the I [00:01:10] would say probably everyone. Everyone says this about working [00:01:15] at Start-ups that you wear a million hats. Yeah. So I lead partnerships internationally, [00:01:20] but it’s so much more than that. I would say beyond that, a lot of go to market [00:01:25] strategy. For example, right now I just came back from Australia. We’re kicking off [00:01:30] there. We’ve been there for a couple of years, but now we’re really focusing on it. So looking for hire, getting new [00:01:35] partners out there with integrations, etc.. Sophie. Sophie, I feel like your role has changed [00:01:40] a million times at Pearl, but nonetheless, you’re very valuable.

Sophie Lovett: Who am I today? Um, yeah, [00:01:45] actually, Australia’s great, isn’t it? We kind of went into all markets and we’ve stripped it back. [00:01:50] And I know you’re working across every single time zone at the moment. And so I’ve just changed. [00:01:55] My roles just changed. I’m now doing the international market development. [00:02:00] I’m leading the team there. So this is exciting, but it doesn’t [00:02:05] mean that I’m not doing any of the old things I was doing. As Ashley said, we’re we’re [00:02:10] a Start-Up within a Start-Up. So we’re doing a lot. We’re doing the sales, we’re doing the go to market. We’re doing [00:02:15] the partnerships, but we have a fantastic team behind us.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:02:20] both of you on a plane a lot.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. I’d say Ashley’s got more air miles than [00:02:25] me. Yeah.

Ashley King: I, when I, when I was flying back actually yesterday from, we were at [00:02:30] a wedding in Greece for one of our partners that we work with. And it was fantastic. [00:02:35] But I, I was thinking, how many hours have I been on a plane in the last month and I calculated [00:02:40] it’s over 100. Wow. Yeah. Which is insane.

Sophie Lovett: You did something quite smart, didn’t [00:02:45] you? You went to the to Australia and then the US, and then you’ve ended up back in the middle. So [00:02:50] it’s almost like you’ve outdone the jet lag.

Ashley King: Yeah. I don’t even my body doesn’t know what time [00:02:55] it is. Sometimes I wake up in the hotel room and I’m like, where? Where am I?

Payman Langroudi: When you go somewhere, do you do you [00:03:00] strictly keep it as work or do you like.

Ashley King: No, no.

Payman Langroudi: I give it a couple of days either side or.

Ashley King: I try to [00:03:05] write. I don’t I think I don’t want to look back at this time and regret having to [00:03:10] go to all these pretty cool places and not do things beyond that. Another really great thing, [00:03:15] and Sophie and I have done a lot of work travel together because we work on some of the same things, partners [00:03:20] specifically, and you really get embedded into the culture [00:03:25] when you’re going to see someone that works in a different country, like Norway is a great example. [00:03:30] Um, I knew nothing about Norway and I feel like I’ve really, truly started to understand [00:03:35] like how Norwegians think about certain things, their culture, their differences between, [00:03:40] you know, other, even Nordic countries.

Payman Langroudi: Norwegians are.

Ashley King: Cool. They’re cool. Yeah. And like they show [00:03:45] you around, you have a like guaranteed tour guide when you’re going for work. People love to show. [00:03:50]

Payman Langroudi: You, right? It’s different to real tourism, like to normal tourism because it’s a bit [00:03:55] the difference between like getting an Airbnb and a hotel.

Ashley King: This is it. Yeah, that’s exactly right.

Payman Langroudi: You sort of feel more [00:04:00] part of it.

Ashley King: Yeah. I’m like, I know, I know, I’m down with the Norwegians, you know, like I know what their vibe is. [00:04:05]

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, but they don’t let everybody in. That’s the thing, you know, every country’s different, especially in the Nordics. They’re [00:04:10] so different even between Norway and Finland and Sweden. And, uh, there’s definitely [00:04:15] a feeling when you’re not quite in. And then when you’re in, it’s such a good feeling. And yeah. [00:04:20]

Ashley King: I think the ticket there is, at least in Norway, it was going to karaoke. Uh, that [00:04:25] seems to be my ticket with partners is like, let’s do a karaoke night and just [00:04:30] maybe take a few tequila shots.

Payman Langroudi: What makes the decision as to whether you work with a distributor [00:04:35] or whether you set up an office and it’s like a company owned office?

Ashley King: Yeah. Um, I mean, how do you decide [00:04:40] we’re running so lean? And also we don’t, like I said, we don’t know the culture [00:04:45] of even dentists and what they’re looking for. Germany, great example. They’re very [00:04:50] scared of AI in that country. So we don’t speak the language. So right now internationally, [00:04:55] our default is distributor.

Payman Langroudi: But not here, for instance, not here. So [00:05:00] why is that? I mean, how did that work out?

Ashley King: Oh man. I mean what would you say Sophie?

Sophie Lovett: Because we’re [00:05:05] here. We’ve got we’ve got a team here. Um, and you know, it’s English [00:05:10] speaking. And so this was just a place where we could kind of have a natural [00:05:15] hub. But we’ve realised with that some of the nuances of the different countries that it’s really, really tricky. [00:05:20] Like you said, we thought we could just go to Germany and kind of replicate the strategy. Um, but [00:05:25] what works is just not one size fits all. And for example, our Netherlands dealer, we, [00:05:30] I don’t even know how we got in with him, but he is fantastic. Um, [00:05:35] but we, we just kind of have the strategy down here. We work really well with distributors [00:05:40] and suppliers here, but.

Ashley King: I think also time zones, like simply for the fact that [00:05:45] our, our main office is in LA. So working with Finland, for example. [00:05:50] It’s like a ten hour time difference. It’s kind of impossible to be successful doing that.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:05:55] I had I had Officer Tan, who’s the founder, episode 203 about [00:06:00] must have been two and a half years ago. Yeah. And anyone who wants to know how Pearl came [00:06:05] about needs to listen to that episode. But let’s just summarise what what is [00:06:10] the product? It’s an AI enhanced radiograph interpreter. [00:06:15] Is that correct?

Sophie Lovett: I mean you couldn’t have said it better. Yeah. [00:06:20] Essentially what it’s doing is it is looking at radiographs. And it’s using [00:06:25] millions and millions of pieces of data and data points to be able to interpret greyscale, [00:06:30] to look at all sorts of variables and have a look at different pathologies. So [00:06:35] in a matter of seconds, you take the radiograph and the AI is going to appear. So we’re looking at not [00:06:40] just caries. We’re looking at bone loss. We’re looking at periapical radiolucency [00:06:45] and we’re looking at nerves. We’re looking at all sorts of different things. We’re We’re looking at being able to compare it over time as well. [00:06:50] But it’s here to help enhance the clinician. Right. [00:06:55] So, um, it’s like spell check. You know, it’s there as a support mechanism, [00:07:00] but where the human eye is limited to, I think 50 shades [00:07:05] of grey. Um, this can see hundreds, thousands. So it’s [00:07:10] really there as a second opinion, an assistant tool for reading those radiographs. [00:07:15]

Payman Langroudi: But a communication tool too. Right. I mean, I don’t know. I haven’t practised [00:07:20] for a few years now, but you that sort of blank face of a patient when you show them an [00:07:25] X-ray.

Sophie Lovett: Right.

Payman Langroudi: And people pretend to understand what you’re saying, but it’s very difficult. Yeah. [00:07:30] Very difficult to see what’s going on. So would you say it’s more of a communication tool [00:07:35] or more of a diagnostic tool or both or what? What’s the story?

Ashley King: I would say it’s more patient [00:07:40] education. Yeah. And I think dentists forget that [00:07:45] non-clinical people, when they look at an X-ray, we have no clue what [00:07:50] is going on. Yeah, and I’m guilty of this even in my life, talking about AI with my friends, I’m [00:07:55] like, oh, well, okay, I thought this was, you know, beginner level knowledge. [00:08:00] And then I talked to my friends about certain AI tools that I’m using. And they’re just like, minds [00:08:05] are blown. So I think it’s very easy to forget when you’re deep into a field [00:08:10] that actually this is like, I don’t know, rocket science to [00:08:15] people, essentially.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: So my friend came home once and she [00:08:20] said to me, because she’s my old housemate, she said, my dentist has given me a filling. [00:08:25] I said, your dentist hasn’t given you a filling. You know, you’re not flossing. Uh, [00:08:30] uh, you know, you’re not maybe brushing the right amount of time, not using a fluoridated toothpaste. [00:08:35] You’ve kind of given yourself a filling. I then showed her the AI, not her own [00:08:40] radiograph, but just kind of an example. And it was that real eureka moment. There’s [00:08:45] a fantastic dentist in the north. Doctor Kunal Rai from Meliora Dental, and he posted something [00:08:50] yesterday on Instagram of an area of decay that hadn’t quite gone [00:08:55] past the enamel yet. So it was showing up on pearl as this yellow [00:09:00] blob. And then he put up a post saying the patient didn’t accept [00:09:05] treatment. Um, so he was looking at early preventative treatments. And now this area of decay had progressed [00:09:10] past the enamel into the dentine and beyond. So now the patient is [00:09:15] accepting treatment. But last year they hadn’t seen that the pearl, they hadn’t seen the colours. They hadn’t seen the tooth part segmentation. [00:09:20] So they just didn’t get it. So they didn’t work early enough to do something that would [00:09:25] have helped preserve the lifespan of that tooth.

Payman Langroudi: And then what about what are the [00:09:30] problems with it? I mean, false positives. False negatives.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean what’s [00:09:35] the rate of that? Have you got a rate of of errors that it makes.

Ashley King: It’s dependent on the image quality of course. [00:09:40] Yeah. So it’s hard to quantify that, but I mean, anyone that uses [00:09:45] AI knows that it doesn’t always get it right. Sure. So I say it’s like your GPS or [00:09:50] sorry, you call it satnav here. Um, it tells you where it thinks [00:09:55] you should go, but you’re still the one driving the car, which is why it’s called second opinion.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. [00:10:00] Um, so we have some of the most fantastic minds at Pearl. [00:10:05] So we’ve got a computer vision team. They’ve just improved our caries model by [00:10:10] 13%. So when we’re looking at provided [00:10:15] the quality of the image is acceptable, we’re looking at about 9,394% [00:10:20] accuracy. But then within that with, as I said, we’ve just improved that by another [00:10:25] 13%. And so we’ve got some fantastic minds working on it. But the reason that it’s [00:10:30] not here to replace is because it’s not perfect.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: That’s, you [00:10:35] know, it’s always going to have to work alongside a clinician and equally, you know, do you want a here is your [00:10:40] report from a computer? No. It has to still be delivered by the clinician. I like [00:10:45] the fact it’s not perfect because if you ask me, this is controversial. I’m going to say it.

Ashley King: I [00:10:50] like.

Sophie Lovett: It. I hope, I hope no one’s listening. I personally wouldn’t let [00:10:55] students have it straight out of university. I’m sorry.

Ashley King: That’s contrarian.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. [00:11:00] Because I think people really need to cut their teeth on being able to read radiographs as well [00:11:05] and being critical of the AI. The reason that we [00:11:10] have approvals and we have certifications is because it has been proven [00:11:15] that when you work with the AI, the clinicians, the clinician, and, you know, [00:11:20] together they work better than if it was just one or separately. But I do really [00:11:25] think it’s important that we don’t just fully rely on something. Um, yeah. [00:11:30] So that’s, that’s, that’s my controversial opinion.

Ashley King: I, I will, I agree with you [00:11:35] to a certain level. So I think that it’s a good, It shouldn’t be the default. So for [00:11:40] example, now in university, everyone’s writing their essays, right? With ChatGPT or whatever [00:11:45] their LLM is. And personally, I wrote some very [00:11:50] long, robust research papers in uni. And I think that it taught me a lot. [00:11:55] So but I wish that I had ChatGPT to do two things. [00:12:00] One, like spell check and just maybe give some suggestions, but two, to do [00:12:05] the sources because that was the worst. But I think if I was a clinician that was just entering [00:12:10] the field, I would use it after I looked at it first, essentially as like you said, a spell check. [00:12:15]

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. And actually, I find that most clinicians are quite competitive anyway, which is great. You know, what [00:12:20] do you got to do. Get four A’s at a level now to become a dentist? Three. Three. Yeah. [00:12:25] Um so you know, they’re pretty good anyway and they’re quite competitive. So where [00:12:30] it takes ten 20s anyway for the AI to overlay, a lot of clinicians are [00:12:35] kind of competing with themselves. And then, you know, it comes through and it’s, oh, gosh, you know. Yeah, yeah, [00:12:40] it’s a.

Ashley King: Good way to think about.

Sophie Lovett: It. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s a funny thing. Yeah. Because [00:12:45] what will happen to society because of AI is the [00:12:50] first time you can’t tell in 3 or 4 years time what life is going to be like.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, really. [00:12:55] But what about the industrial revolution? I mean, we.

Ashley King: Would have the internet when it came out. We didn’t know Uber [00:13:00] would exist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. But the rate of it is really quite crazy. My daughter says she wants to be a dentist [00:13:05] and she’s 16. And I’m saying by the time she becomes a dentist eight [00:13:10] years time, surely a robot’s going to be doing it, you know?

Ashley King: I think so, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Man, what does [00:13:15] it take? It takes it takes a brain. The brain’s already better than ours. Yeah. It takes AIS. [00:13:20] It gets X-ray vision thing going on. And then. Are you telling me they can’t make hands better than these? [00:13:25] They’ll make hands that can rotate. 360 hands come out of their hands. You know what I mean?

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, but you still got, you [00:13:30] know, where you look at that in surgery, where you’ve got people doing remote surgery, even from different [00:13:35] countries. Yeah. Yeah. You know, those robot arms are so much better than the, you know, the human shaking [00:13:40] hand. But again, I just see our relationship with [00:13:45] AI, with technology improving at the moment. We’re just we’re in the dating [00:13:50] zone with, with this sort of tech. And we don’t know whether they want to go steady with [00:13:55] us or whether they just want to carry on. You know, it is we’re all a bit unsure, but I [00:14:00] think that as we progress, we’ll find our relationship sweet spot with AI. If we don’t, that’s [00:14:05] a human problem. But do you know what’s making AI humans?

Ashley King: So I think the pendulum [00:14:10] is actually going to swing in terms of.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, you’re right.

Ashley King: People are going.

Payman Langroudi: To be in person. [00:14:15] Stuff will be, this is it. So we’re doing this event at Ministry of Sound, whatever. Yeah. But in [00:14:20] the same way as now, the pendulum swung like people want vinyl records.

Ashley King: Yeah, exactly. [00:14:25]

Payman Langroudi: It’s a it’s a niche thing. Yeah. So as a niche thing, yeah, I hear you.

Ashley King: I [00:14:30] don’t think that I don’t think it’s niche to want real human interaction. I think that’s just [00:14:35] how we biologically are. So I even think about going to a restaurant, right? [00:14:40] Uh, if there were robots serving versus, you know, [00:14:45] and sorry, you know, serving is once again another UK term, as we say in the US, robot waitresses [00:14:50] versus, you know, real waitresses. I’m going to choose the one with the real, even [00:14:55] if the robot ones are more efficient because I want to be around people. [00:15:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: People buy from people. People buy from.

Payman Langroudi: People. I wouldn’t be surprised if my kids [00:15:05] married a robot.

Sophie Lovett: Well, that’s probably, well.

Ashley King: Not parenting male loneliness [00:15:10] epidemic. So maybe if you have any.

Payman Langroudi: Because like you look at you look at your discovery.

Sophie Lovett: I hope [00:15:15] you’re very proud.

Payman Langroudi: Listen, you look at your discover page. You look at your discover page. That goddamn thing knows you [00:15:20] better than you know yourself. Yeah, but so, so.

Ashley King: Scary thought if.

Payman Langroudi: The robot, if the robot [00:15:25] knows you better than you know yourself, like knows exactly what you want, and then you put some pair of glasses on and it looks like [00:15:30] whatever you want it to look like.

Sophie Lovett: And would you marry yourself.

Payman Langroudi: If [00:15:35] the programming is perfect? Yeah. Then then why wouldn’t you? You [00:15:40] know, in a way, it’s a bit sad to say.

Sophie Lovett: But I just think it’s the same.

Payman Langroudi: As my children. My grandchildren. [00:15:45]

Sophie Lovett: Maybe your grandchildren will be. And we’re all very proud of them. And what [00:15:50] a great ceremony. And I hope it’s not too expensive for you. But, I mean, you could say, [00:15:55] you know, why didn’t the people who invented the wheel fall in love with the wheel? You know, we all fall in love with [00:16:00] some people do. But, you know, it’s just people are intrinsically [00:16:05] linked to people when we all saw each other.

Payman Langroudi: Have you enabled voice on ChatGPT [00:16:10] or Gemini? You can have a two hour conversation with.

Ashley King: Oh yeah, I mean, I do sometimes. [00:16:15]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Me too. Yeah.

Ashley King: Absolutely. I did before this podcast.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve never done that.

Sophie Lovett: So I, [00:16:20] I always talk to it. Yeah. But I listened to an AI podcast [00:16:25] to see if I could listen to it. And it sounds so real, but it’s [00:16:30] so not. There’s just something about human.

Payman Langroudi: I know it’s very early days.

Ashley King: I [00:16:35] think there’s something like esoteric spiritual that you.

Sophie Lovett: Can’t.

Ashley King: Explain [00:16:40] when it comes to human connection. I don’t think.

Payman Langroudi: Are we going to get to God, though? It’s [00:16:45] a bit early in the podcast.

Sophie Lovett: Payman always finds [00:16:50] God.

Ashley King: I mean, you know, there’s something bigger than us. We don’t know everything. [00:16:55] We don’t know why we’re here. So I think there may be unexplainable neurobiological. [00:17:00] They might be explainable as well. But you’re right.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right, you’re right. We don’t know everything. That’s for sure. That’s for sure. [00:17:05]

Sophie Lovett: Can I just touch on that? Payman. Do you think there’s something bigger, bigger than us? Do you think there’s a [00:17:10] sort of higher.

Payman Langroudi: Higher energy? Whatever.

Ashley King: Oh, yeah. We had this conversation in a cab in. [00:17:15]

Sophie Lovett: This.

Ashley King: Conversation after the dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Show me. Every time we meet, we talk, [00:17:20] we talk about. We talk about God. Um, yeah. Listen.

Sophie Lovett: We [00:17:25] love.

Payman Langroudi: Listen, listen, listen. There is. There’s definitely something else other than this. This. Yeah, there’s [00:17:30] something else. But I think it’s more like, you know, doors of perception kind of thing. Yeah. That, you know, we [00:17:35] can right now perceive some stuff. We can’t see all the radio waves [00:17:40] and UV rays going on. So those things are here, but we can’t see them.

Ashley King: So the [00:17:45] 3D reality.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Ashley King: So what we see.

Payman Langroudi: But but the question of is there good and bad. [00:17:50] That’s where I sort of fall over. Yeah. Is there good and evil?

Sophie Lovett: I think we got really existential. [00:17:55] And I think this is probably you know, it takes us back to why do clinicians want [00:18:00] to use Perl? And I think you can use AI, or you can use Perl, or you can use whatever [00:18:05] for good or evil. You know, you can totally sit back and do nothing and [00:18:10] you can, you know, have something that’s a support. But actually everything works better when you have a good [00:18:15] relationship with it. Um, if I look at the best clinicians, I [00:18:20] know they are using every thing to give everything they possibly can for the patients [00:18:25] to give them the best consent journey, the best treatment planning. And if something [00:18:30] goes wrong, then they’ve done all that they possibly can. Things go wrong. Things go wrong all the time.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting [00:18:35] listening to you. You’re talking and you’re using sort of Dental vocab. Like it’s like [00:18:40] second nature to you. But you’ve only been in dentistry for how long?

Sophie Lovett: Nearly three [00:18:45] years, isn’t it? I mean, I went to my first dental event when I was 18, so.

Payman Langroudi: It feels like you’ve [00:18:50] been in dentistry much longer than that, which is like, I guess a, you know, testament, right. But I [00:18:55] want to ask you, how long have you been in dentistry?

Ashley King: I started in dental [00:19:00] in 2018, so about eight years.

Payman Langroudi: But 2018.

Ashley King: I’ve, I’ve had a few pivots [00:19:05] along the way. I will say Sophie, clinically, she has far more [00:19:10] knowledge than me, but I think I think it’s because she’s just been extremely curious.

Payman Langroudi: But you went with Pearl [00:19:15] 2018. There was no Pearl.

Ashley King: No, I wasn’t I was with my now boss, Erica, [00:19:20] and we were at Voco, which is. I’m sure you’re familiar. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:19:25] so I want to ask. I mean, dentists think we’re so different, you know, to [00:19:30] everyone else. We think it’s a very like nishi. Interesting. It’s different to everything else. What [00:19:35] is it about dentistry that surprised you the most?

Sophie Lovett: I think [00:19:40] especially when we look at the comparison between the US and the UK, the UK [00:19:45] dental market is so small. Everybody knows everybody. [00:19:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s a cottage industry, right?

Sophie Lovett: It is. But it’s it’s tiny. And I think [00:19:55] that’s really exciting because you can work with people you actually really enjoy working with. And [00:20:00] I mean, when I’m at dinner and the dental chat gets [00:20:05] going, I honestly, my dad is just bored to tears with it when I’m with my father, my [00:20:10] poor father.

Payman Langroudi: But because both your brothers.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, I have four brothers. [00:20:15]

Ashley King: And now I come to the family dinner sometimes.

Sophie Lovett: Ashley’s family.

Ashley King: And he’s like, please [00:20:20] don’t invite her. Don’t talk about dentistry.

Sophie Lovett: I was like, oh my goodness me, [00:20:25] what a boring conversation. It’s so exciting. And but it’s because [00:20:30] I think if you look at, um medical and GP [00:20:35] practices and hospital and stuff, I don’t think they’ve got so much choice about what they can do on a day to [00:20:40] day basis. Whereas I think principal dentists and groups, etc. [00:20:45] have a lot more access to technologies, to changes [00:20:50] in a way that’s almost unprecedented. You know.

Payman Langroudi: That’s why he targeted dentistry, [00:20:55] really, because hospitals are, you know, the decision making process is so difficult. Yeah. And [00:21:00] you’re right, GPS are very slow to adopt stuff.

Ashley King: There’s so much more bureaucracy in healthcare and monopolies [00:21:05] and.

Payman Langroudi: Dentists like toys.

Ashley King: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The kind of there’s a lot of dentists [00:21:10] who are early adopters on toys. Yeah. But but you know, what are the reflections about dentists? [00:21:15] What you know, what, what is it about dentists that you sort of didn’t expect.

Ashley King: I [00:21:20] mean, I have a really interesting lens, I think, because I came from the US [00:21:25] and then to here, it’s it’s night and.

Payman Langroudi: Day difference between American and UK. So American is [00:21:30] much more commercial.

Ashley King: It is. And I mean, they go through more schooling. They spend a [00:21:35] lot more money on schooling coming out of, you know, with 250 [00:21:40] K in debt. And then but they’re guaranteed to make a lot more money. Right. [00:21:45] Um, some pulling the standard is 500. Probably, I don’t know. I would have to [00:21:50] look, but you know, millionaires essentially. And I think the reason people go [00:21:55] into dentistry is maybe a little bit different because it is more of [00:22:00] a lucrative career. I know that it’s lucrative here as well. But [00:22:05] in terms of your upside financially, um, it’s [00:22:10] more money focussed. Yeah. So if I’m being honest.

Payman Langroudi: Versus let me tell you an example, we do a composite [00:22:15] course here.

Ashley King: Right?

Payman Langroudi: We do the exact same composite course in Chicago with same teacher, [00:22:20] same content. Yeah. In Chicago we charge twice as much as we charge here. [00:22:25] Um, the every single dentist who comes to the class ends up [00:22:30] buying product. Every single one. Here we’d have to charge half as much. [00:22:35] And, you know, you get you sell a better stuff here and there, but it’s not like there’s not that [00:22:40] that sort of go getter ness from the dentist. Yeah. Um, so I’d [00:22:45] expect like selling Perl much easier in America than here. Is that correct or. No.

Speaker 5: I would say. [00:22:50]

Sophie Lovett: I think people are pretty open to it in the UK.

Ashley King: I think the [00:22:55] value translates in both.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Ashley King: Because it’s not solely about just [00:23:00] direct ROI. While that’s a big piece of it. It [00:23:05] also is about building patient trust and your day to day right. And offloading your workload. [00:23:10] This is a problem that exists in both territories. You know, dentists are running a [00:23:15] business. They didn’t go to dental school to run a business. They went to dental school [00:23:20] to learn how to provide great patient care. And that’s a problem that exists across every [00:23:25] single global market.

Sophie Lovett: You know what? I think you’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Have you sold to American dentists? [00:23:30]

Sophie Lovett: Yes. It’s the easiest thing in the world. Yeah. I just put up the price. No. [00:23:35] Yeah. It’s I don’t know, it’s more.

Ashley King: Expensive in the US.

Sophie Lovett: I think. I think it’s just [00:23:40] because of the British accent. Hello. Would you like to buy something? You know, it could be. Yeah. It’s, [00:23:45] you know, so I, I don’t actually know how easy or hard it is to sell that, but [00:23:50] my experience is it’s fairly easy. But what was.

Ashley King: It Jackie like? Went to a show in [00:23:55] the US and.

Sophie Lovett: He made.

Ashley King: The most sales.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Ashley King: Americans love, you know, an English [00:24:00] accent, which.

Sophie Lovett: Is novelty factor. But I think in the UK where we do really well is you’ve [00:24:05] got people who purchase from us exactly as Ashley said, for the the return, [00:24:10] because it’s a product that very easily brings a return, but actually on the other side, [00:24:15] you have the clinicians who use it because they’re super moral, because [00:24:20] they want to give their patients all of the communication. They don’t ask [00:24:25] about any return on investment. They just want everything that is available for them.

Payman Langroudi: The latest thing.

Sophie Lovett: They [00:24:30] want the latest thing, but they want something that is, yeah, it’s all about the patients for some of them. So that’s [00:24:35] why we have we don’t really have an issue at all with when we speak with UK clinicians.

Ashley King: I would say what [00:24:40] this has happened to me a few times here in the UK when I’ve spoken to clinicians [00:24:45] is they’re doing a lot of NHS dentistry and this is [00:24:50] bad, but there have been a few dentists that have said to me, oh, I don’t want your tool [00:24:55] because, you know, we surface up to 30% more detections. And that means I’m going [00:25:00] to have to provide more treatment to my NHS.

Payman Langroudi: Patients supervised neglect kind of idea. [00:25:05]

Ashley King: Because if I see it on the now, I actually have to address it. So that’s [00:25:10] bad. But there are some dentists that think that way. Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: But the [00:25:15] thing is, though, again, there’s that moral thing of, okay, you may not be able to treat as much, but you’re [00:25:20] seeing far more. So you just have to be a bit more discerning about who you are treating. So it’s not a case of, [00:25:25] you know, I’m blindly not looking. It’s just they just have to treat the most important things. But [00:25:30] that’s, you know, that’s the problem that I see personally, um, [00:25:35] when I’m looking at England, Scotland and Wales as well, the devolved governments and how [00:25:40] different dentistry is and how it’s run in terms of the NHS. And I just don’t see how [00:25:45] it’s sustainable, particularly within England and Wales. And that’s one of the most eye opening things [00:25:50] about working in dental is the difference between private and NHS. I like [00:25:55] the Scottish system as a comparison to the.

Payman Langroudi: Which is a cheaper [00:26:00] item.

Sophie Lovett: It’s a fee per item, you know, it’s not perfect, but if you look at the comparison, if you look at the kind [00:26:05] of general happiness of Scottish clinicians, it seems on par Paul [00:26:10] more elevated. But the crazy thing is, is you’ve got people who know very little [00:26:15] about dentistry, puppeteering, things in the NHS. There was a [00:26:20] talk at the Parliament the other day, and they were talking about giving a few million more pounds to [00:26:25] NHS dentistry, and there was a nice little clap in the room. But a few million pounds is absolutely [00:26:30] nothing in the grand scheme of the NHS. So the biggest eye opening [00:26:35] factor for me is how can we get these people who have done really well at school, [00:26:40] who’ve gone to university for seven years, who are putting their heart and soul into something? How can [00:26:45] we pay them? How can we pay them better? How can we level the playing field between private and NHS? That [00:26:50] for me is the the craziest thing.

Payman Langroudi: Look, I think it’s problematic, right? Because [00:26:55] if we compare to the US for instance, the healthcare. Yeah. [00:27:00] If if your grandma had an issue a medical issue. Yeah. [00:27:05] I’d be very happy to tell my grandma. Go to your local GP. Yeah. For free. [00:27:10] Yeah. And I’d be very happy for her to be referred to a local hospital for free [00:27:15] and be seen. And I think that’s a that’s a good level of care. Yeah. In the US they’ve got this thing about listen, [00:27:20] go find the best doctor in the country. And you know, the best doctor in the country isn’t going to be free. And you know, there’s that [00:27:25] level of agency people want with their healthcare. They want to pick the best guy. Yeah. [00:27:30] So there’s that. But if my grandma had toothache, yeah. I wouldn’t [00:27:35] hand on heart say go find an NHS dentist. I wouldn’t.

Sophie Lovett: You know, wouldn’t you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, because the NHS [00:27:40] hasn’t got time or money to fix that tooth.

Ashley King: It’s the time piece. Absolutely. I’ve [00:27:45] had a discussion with an NHS dentist at the show, and she was telling me how [00:27:50] just she has to move through patients so quickly, and even how second opinion would be great for her, [00:27:55] because then she would have to spend less time looking at X-rays. But I mean, it’s insane how what is expected [00:28:00] of NHS given.

Payman Langroudi: The opposite advice to friends and family. I definitely don’t find an NHS [00:28:05] dentist for this problem, but.

Ashley King: It’s not their fault, right?

Payman Langroudi: It’s his fault, but the system’s fault, [00:28:10] right?

Ashley King: Exactly. And like Sophie, you said, they’re saying, you know, we’ll throw a few million at it. It’s like, well, it’s a fundamentally [00:28:15] broken system, which, by the way, I have many thoughts about our system in the US, insurance wise. Insurance [00:28:20] companies in general are just problematic in creating a lot of issues for us. But here it’s also [00:28:25] fundamentally broken. Don’t don’t throw money at it. Like look at the I.

Sophie Lovett: Mean, if you’re going to throw money [00:28:30] at it, throw more than a tenner as well, right?

Payman Langroudi: But there’s health care inflation as well. I mean, it’s the [00:28:35] crazy thing is here that we’re spending more on health per capita now than ever before. [00:28:40] And yet the NHS is more on its knees than ever before because stuff’s [00:28:45] getting more expensive. Health care is getting more expensive.

Sophie Lovett: Life is just expensive. And you have these specialist dentists [00:28:50] as well, who could be earning 300 plus thousand pounds a year, and they’re having to save. Now [00:28:55] people are having. Yes, it’s a we there’s a lot of issues that need sorting [00:29:00] out. Um, but, you know, essentially Pearl is there to make clinicians [00:29:05] lives easier. And there’s we love it, don’t we, doctor Amanda Bassey [00:29:10] Duke in in Scotland. So she just decided to take it upon herself [00:29:15] to time how much she was saving per visit.

Payman Langroudi: Because of per.

Sophie Lovett: Because of per. Yeah. [00:29:20] And we were saying this to dentists weren’t we. Up and down the country. She’s saving I think it was nine minutes, 33 [00:29:25] seconds or something. And an NHS dentist stopped me and said, you know, I’d [00:29:30] have less than six minutes left of my appointment. You can’t be saying that. You know, that’s the difference between Scotland [00:29:35] and England and saving of nine minutes in some Dental [00:29:40] per what? Per per appointment, per appointment.

Ashley King: In terms of diagnosing [00:29:45] herself and then speaking to.

Sophie Lovett: The nation, isn’t that incredible? So she actually took it upon [00:29:50] herself to time every single visit. She makes me laugh. She she, [00:29:55] if you ask her, why wouldn’t you have Pearl? She is [00:30:00] so fervent about it, you know, why wouldn’t you have it? It’s absolutely fantastic system. She just doesn’t [00:30:05] understand why everybody doesn’t have it. It has been completely transformative for [00:30:10] her. Um, and, but I just thought that was incredible case study. And we have some people who’ve [00:30:15] done case studies for us where it really surfaces things that we wouldn’t even thought about.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s go [00:30:20] through the process. Let’s say I’m a dentist, I decide I want Pearl, I call you Sophie. What happens next? [00:30:25]

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. So we look at what imaging system that you’re using and then we go [00:30:30] based on that. So if you’re I mean, we work with pretty much every single imaging system. So [00:30:35] we would then set you up with it. So it all happens remotely. You don’t need to do anything.

Payman Langroudi: No one visits. [00:30:40]

Sophie Lovett: No no, no, it’s all everything’s remote, you know, it’s a. And then what we would [00:30:45] do is you would just take your radiographs as you normally would, and then we can give you a system. So [00:30:50] it’s a separate web browser. And then you’d be able to access all the AI. So you can [00:30:55] access everything from there. But what we’re trying to do and this is where Ashley has been working, [00:31:00] is we’re trying to improve that workflow. So [00:31:05] we now work with the likes of Dental Vision. So the AI that you have in there, dental vision, AI, [00:31:10] DB, AI that’s pearls technology. So you’re not even having to move the you’re not even [00:31:15] having to change browser clinicians do not like clicking, do they? Actually, yeah, we work with we [00:31:20] work natively. So natively means when we are embedded within an existing system with [00:31:25] the likes of Care Stream and Rumex, I mean, you can talk much more about this actually, because you’ve been working on [00:31:30] those partnerships and getting them up and running.

Ashley King: Yeah. Your point about [00:31:35] clinicians not wanting to change their workflow has been a focus for us. [00:31:40] We want to make lives easier, not harder, obviously. Um, so yeah, I would say most of [00:31:45] the main imaging systems people are using in the UK and globally, like [00:31:50] the top 3 to 5 were integrated and yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, what happens now? [00:31:55] You she’s got, she’s, she downloaded something and she’s got, she’s got the. Is [00:32:00] there training.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. So we, we’ll pull from the server again. So it’s all just streamlined [00:32:05] there for you. So what I would say is so we’ll send out video training. Um, [00:32:10] you can train yourself on the things that you need to know in five [00:32:15] minutes.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really.

Sophie Lovett: And everything that is nice to know in [00:32:20] less than a day. And that is feedback that I’ve had from clinicians who’ve told me that it’s [00:32:25] scary again, actually, I think you mentioned earlier your friends saying about, oh, AI, and [00:32:30] we kind of just assume that people know exactly what we’re talking about. And I do not want to assume [00:32:35] that people will be able to learn in the same way or anything like that, but you [00:32:40] cannot break it. So what it will do is it will just overlay with the AI, you’ll have a list of pathologies, [00:32:45] they will automatically be selected for you. And then we have just this patient presentation [00:32:50] button which is called tooth parts, which is the colour overlay. Um, that is [00:32:55] the one button that I would want to just train on everything else. You can learn yourself edits, printouts, [00:33:00] enhancing the image, um, flipping it, changing it, inverting colour, etc.. [00:33:05]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s say I’m not on Dental. How do I get that that extra into the notes, the pearl [00:33:10] into the notes.

Sophie Lovett: Um, so in terms of your note system, what you can do is you can [00:33:15] just select to save it. So you can just pull it down as a PDF into your notes, so straight [00:33:20] into your notes. But what happens is because it’s a separate web browser, if you’re not in Dental, [00:33:25] for example, um, you can access it all the time. So I know when I first start [00:33:30] showing people it, they think, how do I get into my notes? How do I get back to it? It will all [00:33:35] stay there. One of the nice things about that is that that then makes it fully remote for [00:33:40] you as well. So where clinicians were, you know, using wet film or using, um, server [00:33:45] based products really kind of tied them to the [00:33:50] practice. Now you can access your radiographs from home or in your case, your, your yacht [00:33:55] in the Riviera, and you could do your notes from there, for example.

Payman Langroudi: Then. [00:34:00] Okay. How much does it cost?

Sophie Lovett: It’s £249 [00:34:05] per month plus VAT currently.

Payman Langroudi: Per dentist.

Ashley King: Per.

Sophie Lovett: Clinic, per clinic. [00:34:10]

Payman Langroudi: Or per clinic.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. So we, you know, what is it works out around pound per [00:34:15] patient in some practices.

Payman Langroudi: However many chairs I’ve got.

Ashley King: Up to.

Sophie Lovett: About ten [00:34:20] chairs 10 to.

Ashley King: 15. We’re pretty flexible on it. We have a.

Payman Langroudi: One chair and ten chairs. Same cost.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. [00:34:25] So around 250 to £300 per month is what you’re going to your pitch.

Payman Langroudi: Your [00:34:30] pitch is you’re going to make that up in the in the treatment uptake because patients [00:34:35] will trust you more because is that what you’re saying?

Sophie Lovett: So as Ashley mentioned earlier, we are surfacing about [00:34:40] 3,033% more diseases being detected. So one [00:34:45] you’ve got that. So, you know, sometimes our eyes can be focussed on a specific area. We may have missed something. [00:34:50] Secondly that acceptance of treatment because of the. Aha! I understand [00:34:55] what I’m looking at. It’s far quicker. That’s where Doctor Amanda’s nine [00:35:00] minute, 33 seconds time saving came in. So yeah, quicker treatment acceptance. [00:35:05] If for example the patient isn’t the bill payer as well, we’ll give them something to take home [00:35:10] so that they can show somebody else. Seeing is believing. If I go to the mechanic, don’t [00:35:15] want to fix my car, but I really want to know what I am paying for. Um, [00:35:20] so when we’ve got patients who don’t know what it is because [00:35:25] they can’t feel it, you know, they don’t know what’s going on, you know, the second that you’ve got something that is, is [00:35:30] non-sentient, it doesn’t feel there’s no reason for the AI to be detecting [00:35:35] any more or less. It’s just that it’s a shame, but it’s that, okay, I trust you now. [00:35:40]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, dentistry is a game of trust. 1,000%. Right? Because [00:35:45] most of the time you can’t tell as a patient anything that’s happened. Yeah. In your mouth, which [00:35:50] is hence, you know, people get lovely waiting rooms and stuff like that to try and say, hey, you know, [00:35:55] the other signs that I’m good other than the teeth don’t hurt. Um, [00:36:00] and then just get this wrong sometimes, you know, like the trust point is the [00:36:05] key point. Um, if you know, we have people asking us, oh, if I [00:36:10] drop the price, will I do more whitening? And it’s not.

Sophie Lovett: All [00:36:15] the time.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not a commodity, you know, like commodities work that way. Yeah, yeah. But it’s not a commodity. [00:36:20] It’s the exact opposite of a commodity. It’s like, you know, very personalised care. Yeah. And [00:36:25] the question of, you know, if I’m selling, we’ve got, you know, some guys got cheap whitening for £300 [00:36:30] and now we’ve got expensive whitening for £600, let’s say. Does it mean if I, [00:36:35] if I’m selling 600 will I sell half as much. They really people really believe that. Whereas [00:36:40] actually, if the patient trusts you to 300 they’ll trust you to 3000. [00:36:45] It’s the trust point. That’s the key. And I guess, you know, if I can increase trust with [00:36:50] Pearl. It’s huge. It’s huge. I wouldn’t for you guys. I wouldn’t even go in selling [00:36:55] pounds per second or nine minutes. I know these are things that you’re going to add on. Yeah. [00:37:00] But it’s trust. If I can increase trust from my patients, it’s gigantic.

Ashley King: I think we [00:37:05] forget as well how it does improve trust, because AI in [00:37:10] some instances has become a bit of a dirty word, probably because of fear. Yeah. [00:37:15] But we ran a survey and what was the percentage? 70% of 70 plus percent of patients [00:37:20] said that they trusted their dentists more because they were using AI. Yeah. [00:37:25] And it goes back even to the conversation we were having before about, you know, it’s about person [00:37:30] to person, interpersonal communication, all of these things, relationships. [00:37:35] You can’t replace that. And you have to build it in order to be [00:37:40] truly successful. There’s no AI will never actually replace that, but it can enhance it. [00:37:45]

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. I talk to students a lot of the time and they [00:37:50] I when they’re still at university and when they finish university. [00:37:55] And something I hear so much is my patients aren’t [00:38:00] accepting, I’m not able to sell it. The word sell in dentistry is a real surprising [00:38:05] word that I never expected.

Ashley King: It feels very American.

Sophie Lovett: It’s a real. It’s a. I think it’s a real shame. [00:38:10] Why is it that we’re having to. Or clinicians are having to sell what they know that they’re doing. So [00:38:15] if I walked into the hospital.

Payman Langroudi: You can you can stick another word in it, but it’s selling.

Sophie Lovett: But [00:38:20] you are like, because why are we convincing this patient that they need a root [00:38:25] canal? It shouldn’t be that we’re looking.

Ashley King: You know what, I imagine it feels like I’m not a clinician, but as a [00:38:30] when you go into the supermarket and you don’t buy anything and then you leave and you [00:38:35] are like, I didn’t do anything wrong. But I’m wondering if someone’s assuming that I’m like doing [00:38:40] something wrong. You feel kind of guilty and weird. That’s probably what it feels like when you have a patient walk in. [00:38:45] Maybe that doesn’t have pain and maybe you find, you know, three carries, you’re asking them to [00:38:50] get treatment and you’re like, oh, like you feel this weird feeling. [00:38:55] I imagine that’s what it’d feel like.

Payman Langroudi: As a dentist.

Ashley King: Will you.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me? You’re right, you’re right. And then often [00:39:00] you don’t know when was the last time this person saw a dentist? Yeah. And plus, get three dentists, [00:39:05] get four treatment plans, you know, like that’s it.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: People disagree with each other. Um, [00:39:10] you’ve met my wife? Yeah. She’s a total let’s wait and see type [00:39:15] of dentist. She is excellent. And then you get the other type who’s like early intervention, like get in as quick [00:39:20] as you can before it gets any worse. Yeah. Like, you know, like, let’s crown it while we still [00:39:25] can kind of approach and very the US approach actually.

Ashley King: Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: They [00:39:30] might not be wrong. You know, those 3 or 4 different people who have got different decisions [00:39:35] on something, they might all be right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. That too. That too.

Sophie Lovett: And then I think that [00:39:40] just wherever we have a vacuum and this happens so much in Covid, we fill that [00:39:45] vacuum with information when we don’t know, and that’s what patients are doing. And I think it’s so important that we [00:39:50] try to remember what it’s like when we knew nothing about dentistry, even [00:39:55] the language, you know, when the language was completely changed since I came into dental, that’s why I’ve got [00:40:00] my little Oxford Book of Clinical Dentistry, because the language I had to learn how to understand it. I’m [00:40:05] going to be completely honest. I didn’t know what a Carie was. I didn’t know what caries were trying [00:40:10] to.

Payman Langroudi: But now it’s so native to you. Like you trot it off. It’s nice.

Sophie Lovett: But then I feel like when I when I’m [00:40:15] speaking with people who are outside of dentistry, I would say decay. So again, I think it’s [00:40:20] with everybody kind of has to remember or we find [00:40:25] ourselves kind of just mixing within Dental. I think when you’re in it a certain amount of time. So then we just forget [00:40:30] the language of bubble. It’s a bubble. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about you live you live here now? [00:40:35]

Ashley King: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of kind of. Tell me about your reflections on like, London, [00:40:40] living in London. What’s what’s the best and worst thing compared to the US?

Ashley King: Oh man. [00:40:45]

Sophie Lovett: Oh, I like that.

Ashley King: I think London is the best city in the world, which is, [00:40:50] I know, a hot take.

Payman Langroudi: Even all the places you’ve been.

Ashley King: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Ashley King: And [00:40:55] maybe I’m just gaslighting myself because I’m here.

Sophie Lovett: But it is a sunny day today.

Ashley King: It [00:41:00] is also a beautiful day outside. Ask me next January. I’ll tell you how I really feel. But no. Um, [00:41:05] I think, Sophie, I think you said this to me. It’s a hard city to be [00:41:10] truly successful in. It’s almost like New York in the US where, you know, if you’re living [00:41:15] in London, it’s expensive. You have to be a grafter. And I think [00:41:20] there are some very hard working, intelligent people in this city. It’s not hard [00:41:25] to find them and people from all over the world. So I really like that. What [00:41:30] I don’t like about it, I mean, being away from my family, of course.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:41:35] outside of that.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. Come on, give us the scoop. Give us the tea.

Ashley King: There is some.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, [00:41:40] surely service here can’t be as good as it is in the US.

Ashley King: Oh yeah. I mean, that’s true.

Sophie Lovett: I feel [00:41:45] like you quite like that though.

Ashley King: I like it when people.

Sophie Lovett: Are like to.

Ashley King: Me. I’m like yeah. Oh I [00:41:50] have to earn your love. Like bring it on. It’s probably some childhood trauma thing. Yeah, [00:41:55] exactly. Um, it can be a bit much when you go back to the US, but [00:42:00] like you walk in the elevator in five different people walk in and they all say hello to you. You know, especially [00:42:05] where I’m from, North Carolina, everyone’s very friendly, so it’s good in different good and bad in different ways.

Sophie Lovett: No. [00:42:10] Come on, tell us what’s the worst thing?

Ashley King: Uh, okay. You know that I’m, like, hyper critical of the US, [00:42:15] so I hope that anyone listening to this doesn’t think that I’m like, America is so much [00:42:20] better. We’re the best country in the world. Freedom. We’ll talk.

Payman Langroudi: About the worst things about America as.

Ashley King: Well.

Sophie Lovett: For [00:42:25] anyone listening. Ashley’s wearing a t shirt that says back to back World War Champs. Yeah. [00:42:30]

Ashley King: Um, I would say [00:42:35] there’s something so beautiful about the American dream [00:42:40] and the American spirit. Um, which is actually sort of dying in the US at this [00:42:45] moment with the younger generation. But this idea that you can become [00:42:50] whoever you want to.

Payman Langroudi: Be and do. Kind of.

Ashley King: Yeah. And be proud of what you’ve accomplished. [00:42:55] I think it’s a little more toned back here. Like people [00:43:00] are afraid to talk about their successes or even [00:43:05] dream really big and do that out loud. You’ll be judged.

Payman Langroudi: So I [00:43:10] think you’re right. If you if in the UK, if you say, I’ve got an idea, loads of people will tell you why [00:43:15] it’s not possible. Right. And I’ve noticed in America it’s the opposite. I mean, people were [00:43:20] saying why not.

Ashley King: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s for real.

Sophie Lovett: It’s the complementing as well, like [00:43:25] self complementing. If somebody said that they were the best at something, I’d say actually this person [00:43:30] said that they were the best at something the other day. Whereas I actually think it’s really good to celebrate your [00:43:35] successes. Um, but I think we’re trying to learn that as Brits. [00:43:40] But it’s slow, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, my, my business partner moved to Dubai, so [00:43:45] it’s just so.

Sophie Lovett: They could complement themselves.

Payman Langroudi: Within, within three months of being there. [00:43:50] He’s got people helping him in ways he’s never had here.

Sophie Lovett: Wow.

Ashley King: That’s that’s another really great point. [00:43:55] Every all of my early success in my career, which has brought me here, has been because [00:44:00] people I met, people that wanted to help me. Yeah, yeah. And so, for example, when I started at [00:44:05] Voco, the reason I got that job is because I was in Houston for on [00:44:10] a work trip. I went to a gym that I booked on ClassPass, and this girl in the class started [00:44:15] talking to me who worked at Voco. She ended up getting me hired there. Wow. And it, it [00:44:20] was just because we had a conversation and then we became friends. And I don’t think [00:44:25] we do that as much here. People don’t talk to each other and they’re not looking for friends. Like, we have [00:44:30] golden retriever energy in the US where it’s just.

Payman Langroudi: Like a question on that sometimes in America, I’ve sat [00:44:35] on a plane and the guy sitting next to me straight away. How are you doing? Yeah. And sometimes we have [00:44:40] a nine hour flight and we talk for the whole nine hour flight.

Ashley King: This happened to me the other day, but it can be annoying. [00:44:45]

Payman Langroudi: At the end of that nine hour.

Ashley King: Flight.

Payman Langroudi: I thought, I thought I’ve really connected to someone. You know, like [00:44:50] this is going to be a friend for life or something. Because we spoke for all that time. We got we got to where [00:44:55] we were getting to and he was like, okay, see you later. Bye. Yeah. And if.

Sophie Lovett: I transient.

Payman Langroudi: If I, yeah, [00:45:00] if I’d had a conversation like that in the UK that I’d be like in touch with that person. [00:45:05] Yeah. And it made me realise, yeah, that you guys get into things much more quickly, [00:45:10] but maybe like getting very close takes a long time. Whereas [00:45:15] here you can sometimes sometimes you meet someone and you just straight away, straight away, you know, like that person’s [00:45:20] like someone you’re going to, you’re going to be knowing for a long time and you can get very close quicker, [00:45:25] very close quicker. But you’re right, people don’t talk. People don’t [00:45:30] talk.

Sophie Lovett: Say Ashley’s really quite European in that sense. Ashley herself. Yeah, yeah. [00:45:35] I would hope so. As in you, you. And it’s, um, um, [00:45:40] it’s like your love and respect is earned over [00:45:45] time, and I find that much more valuable in terms of you’re always super polite and warm and everything, but [00:45:50] you’re not, you’re not that kind of golden retriever, which is, uh, hey, hey, hey hey hey. And [00:45:55] then leave it, you know, it’s you really do build those relationships. And, um, [00:46:00] I’m an introvert. I’ll see you was asking me about it. He’s he’s from France, but he lives in LA, [00:46:05] so I’m not going to do the accent because, you know, sort of thinks [00:46:10] a Parisian surfer. Um, but he was saying, you know, how do Ashley and [00:46:15] Sarah create these relationships in Europe? Europeans don’t love Americans [00:46:20] and said, it’s not about loving Americans. It’s about the individual. And actually, [00:46:25] you know, Ashley can speak to anybody.

Payman Langroudi: I think British people do love Americans, though, over here.

Ashley King: More than I [00:46:30] thought.

Payman Langroudi: I was here.

Ashley King: I thought I was going to be a cringe, you know, a person. But it [00:46:35] turns out it’s not too bad.

Sophie Lovett: It’s all these airport. That’s an airport accent that you’ve cultivated. [00:46:40]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I mean London, everyone’s a foreigner, right? It’s hard to find a Brit in [00:46:45] London. Honestly, what’s the worst thing about being in Benidorm? [00:46:50]

Ashley King: The worst thing.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the worst? What would you say, Sophie.

Sophie Lovett: About living in the UK?

Payman Langroudi: No, us. [00:46:55]

Sophie Lovett: What’s the worst thing about the US? Yeah.

Ashley King: I have an [00:47:00] answer. Go on. Um, like we are all. John [00:47:05] said this to me. John Schwarz, who was 13 for a bit and is a close friend, and he said, [00:47:10] um, Americans are on a lifeboat. That’s how they live their [00:47:15] lives. Like they’re on a lifeboat. So everyone, because think about it, our our [00:47:20] health care is tied to our job.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Ashley King: We’re trying to survive. And [00:47:25] even like, you can’t just walk to the store in the US. You have to get in your car. That car is [00:47:30] costing you $400 a month, and then you have car insurance. It’s just all these extra costs. [00:47:35] And being so capitalism focussed. Yeah, I think people [00:47:40] have lost, I guess, just a little bit of authenticity [00:47:45] and like, it’s almost like touch grass a little, you know, like, but people are trying to survive so they can’t [00:47:50] touch grass. So.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but wouldn’t you say financially in America, people are slightly better off than here? [00:47:55] No, I don’t think here the system takes more money from them.

Ashley King: Statistically, salary wise, yes. [00:48:00] But when you add up all those extra fees and then just not even being able to walk to the [00:48:05] supermarket, you know, it’s we don’t have and we don’t prioritise relationships. [00:48:10]

Payman Langroudi: And I think what annoys me about America. Yeah. That it’s only about [00:48:15] the money.

Ashley King: That’s right. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s a good thing in a way. Right. Because here there are places it doesn’t matter how much money [00:48:20] you’ve got, you’re not getting in.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, yeah. We’re about snob long term snobbery. And there’s.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [00:48:25] jobs. Yeah. There’s jobs. Yeah. It’s not about like the money. It’s about who [00:48:30] you are, who, you know, like, whereas in the US at least, you know what it’s about. It’s about money. Yeah. So that’s, [00:48:35] that’s a good thing. You can, you can put it down.

Ashley King: More surface level, like easy to expose.

Payman Langroudi: But, but, [00:48:40] but once I was, I was skiing in America and I lost my goggles or something. So [00:48:45] I went to look for some more and I tried a few on. And the service is great isn’t it? They get, [00:48:50] they get giving me them and taking them out. Try them on. And then I came to pay for it and I looked, I couldn’t find [00:48:55] my wallet. Yeah. I said, oh, I’m so sorry. I left my wallet. And the way she turned on me, man, [00:49:00] she turned on me, man. And you know, then you realise it’s only about [00:49:05] the money. Like the bartenders, this amazing guy. As long as you’re ordering more drinks and and giving him tips. Yeah, [00:49:10] the moment you’re not that guy, who’s the other guy?

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. Then you get.

Ashley King: Good.

Speaker 6: Service too. [00:49:15] So it’s like, it’s good.

Sophie Lovett: You know, and this is exactly it’s all about this balance. But I [00:49:20] think you were asking what I personally think is the worst thing about the US. And [00:49:25] I, I mean, I go to the US most years. I love the place, the geography, the people. [00:49:30]

Payman Langroudi: Where’s your favourite.

Sophie Lovett: Place? Charleston in South Carolina. Absolutely love.

Payman Langroudi: It. Her [00:49:35] hometown.

Sophie Lovett: Uh, you’re from North Carolina. Charlotte, right.

Ashley King: But very close to. I grew up going there. [00:49:40] It’s a beautiful.

Sophie Lovett: City. Just stunning.

Ashley King: One of the only cities where we haven’t knocked down all the old buildings [00:49:45] and replace them with, like, cardboard apartment buildings.

Sophie Lovett: So it’s really pretty nice. [00:49:50]

Payman Langroudi: Why have you been there?

Sophie Lovett: I’ve been all over the US. Um, it’s just, I [00:49:55] don’t know, just. I’ve been there twice, actually. Normally don’t go back to the same place, but it’s just somewhere that really drew. [00:50:00] I don’t know, I was drawn to it. They call it the Europe of the South. Um, and [00:50:05] the Europe of America. But one thing that I find really confusing [00:50:10] is the lobby groups. So if if something is bad for you, you know, [00:50:15] I don’t know, antibiotics in pork or um, OxyContin, [00:50:20] um, or guns, you can have these big kind of short [00:50:25] termist groups that will lobby for something that is just [00:50:30] for, you know, to commercially help themselves. I’m not against, you [00:50:35] know, making a buck at all. But I think, you know, you’ve also got to [00:50:40] think about what’s the next generation, how’s this going to impact? And I do think that.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:50:45] politics is more corrupt.

Sophie Lovett: But it’s just intrinsic. You know, that’s not going to change [00:50:50] about now. But yeah.

Ashley King: This is a bigger picture [00:50:55] of what we were talking about with, you know, private versus public health care. Yeah. When [00:51:00] you’re a politician, you’re supposed to be a public servant. It’s the same as if you’re providing health care. We [00:51:05] have privatised these things and made them about money. And that is why, [00:51:10] I mean, it’s kind of all crumbling down in a way if you if you look at it.

Sophie Lovett: But [00:51:15] yeah, you look at Europe though, and you know, I’m bashing this, but I’m also, you know, you look at Europe and the UK and I [00:51:20] don’t think that we’re productive anymore. I think we’ve got a little bit lazy. So there has to be [00:51:25] I think there’s we’ve just become so polarised in terms of this almost Marxist [00:51:30] communist, a super high capital. You know, there’s where is the middle ground [00:51:35] of let’s be able, let’s enable people to make money, but also let’s [00:51:40] be altruistic. And, you know, let’s have a rising tide.

Payman Langroudi: The middle is not holding. You [00:51:45] know, that’s the thing. We’re not in that era of the middle. No, we are in the polarised era. [00:51:50]

Sophie Lovett: When was the era New Labour?

Payman Langroudi: Blair.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Speaker 6: I saw a video about.

Ashley King: This actually on [00:51:55] Instagram today and it was talking about how in Manchester the [00:52:00] there was a seat. I’m sorry, I don’t know much about politics here. I just try to stay out of politics [00:52:05] in general, which is very privileged. But anyway, um they had, they were very concerned that [00:52:10] this Labour seat was going to go to the other side. And then in terms what [00:52:15] ended up happening is it went to the Green Party and their thing was you need to be ultra left [00:52:20] in order to like, even out the right.

Speaker 6: Yeah.

Ashley King: And I think this is why Kamala [00:52:25] lost in the US to Trump because she was almost too centrist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Although they [00:52:30] put her on a bit late, didn’t they? That was that was the thing.

Ashley King: Well that didn’t that didn’t help. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but but you know, [00:52:35] this question of like the centre. The middle. Yeah. Um you almost what you’re [00:52:40] saying is you have to be a populist, you have to come out with populism, whether [00:52:45] you’re right wing or left wing.

Sophie Lovett: What do you go back. It’s like moving bees. You can’t just move them a little bit. You’ve got to move them [00:52:50] a lot to get them back to.

Payman Langroudi: You know, like the pendulum swings too far [00:52:55] in both directions.

Sophie Lovett: It’s a shame that we’ve allowed the pendulum to shift. I mean, [00:53:00] I just I’m.

Ashley King: It’s the horseshoe theory. Have you heard of that?

Payman Langroudi: No.

Speaker 6: Go on.

Ashley King: It’s like what [00:53:05] you know, this is the the left. And then you’ve become so right that you’re.

Speaker 6: Actually on the other [00:53:10] side of the horseshoe.

Payman Langroudi: Like a Nazi is closer to the communist than he is.

Ashley King: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: But one [00:53:15] thing I’ve noticed though, whenever I’m with Ashley, people always ask about politics. Go straight into it. [00:53:20] It’s just kind of the default at the moment.

Payman Langroudi: Of Trump and all.

Sophie Lovett: That.

Ashley King: I feel like I’m on an apology tour for my country. [00:53:25] Like, I’m just like, I’m sorry about. I’m sorry about what my president tweeted on Easter. [00:53:30] Like, I do not ascribe to that. You know what I mean?

Payman Langroudi: You said you’re not political, but how do you feel [00:53:35] about the Republicans like representing the worker nowadays? [00:53:40] I mean, it’s a weird thing, isn’t it? Like we’ve got a similar situation. Like, you [00:53:45] know, Labour were for the workers, conservatives for the for the, you know, the owners call [00:53:50] it. Yeah. But in America, it’s kind of switched around. Whereas, yeah, before [00:53:55] the Democrats were for the workers and the Republicans were for the money people. Now it’s kind of switched [00:54:00] around. The Democrats are more part of the elite now.

Sophie Lovett: And no, I do.

Ashley King: I think it’s actually [00:54:05] if you look at the policies, for example, the tax cuts that Trump did, [00:54:10] it benefited billionaires more than it did the average person. So I [00:54:15] think we I think Republicans, they cosplay as helping [00:54:20] the average person. But if you look at people who switched.

Payman Langroudi: People don’t generally switch. People [00:54:25] generally are either.

Ashley King: I would say I switched.

Payman Langroudi: You.

Ashley King: Switched. I grew up very Christian, conservative. [00:54:30] And, you know, my family was like pretty, [00:54:35] not blue collar, but I mean, my grandpa grandpas were both trained engineers.

Sophie Lovett: And your me. [00:54:40]

Ashley King: Me, me malls were stay at home moms, you know what I mean? So like, we’re from West Virginia, [00:54:45] you know, pretty, pretty Republican. But no, I and I’ve seen even my family, [00:54:50] they’ve become more centrist even. So, yeah, maybe not even [00:54:55] centrist. I think people in the US are like almost looking for like, you’re lucky here. You don’t have [00:55:00] the two party system. We’re stuck with two parties, and a lot of people find they don’t [00:55:05] identify with either. That’s how I would describe myself.

Sophie Lovett: Do you not say that we’ve predominantly had a two party, [00:55:10] certainly in my lifetime these days.

Payman Langroudi: Now it’s looking like more coalitions. I mean, for the next [00:55:15] election you had the Greens like, like Labour’s losing to the Greens on one side and to reform on the other [00:55:20] side, and it probably will end up being some sort of coalition.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Ashley King: This is good though. You [00:55:25] need to have options. We were we weren’t designed as a country to be a two party system. But I think it’s really [00:55:30] messing us up.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: I think Rory Stewart calls for kind of like government jury duty, [00:55:35] doesn’t he? Where it should just be. Everyone does it for a year. And then [00:55:40] back to I.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s going to be AI in the end. Yeah. Ai.

Sophie Lovett: I don’t understand why. It’s why [00:55:45] things aren’t gone. I feel like our current government, [00:55:50] I just wish they would have put it through AI. You know, some of the I.

Ashley King: Will say, I know we’re [00:55:55] using it in war and it’s made some mistakes.

Payman Langroudi: Of course, of course. [00:56:00]

Ashley King: So I think once again, it’s like using AI on an X-ray. You want to make sure you’re.

Payman Langroudi: How are. [00:56:05]

Ashley King: You using.

Payman Langroudi: Ai in your work outside of Pearl itself being an AI.

Ashley King: System? Oh, man.

Payman Langroudi: Are [00:56:10] you into Claude?

Ashley King: Oh, I am into what I call her Claudia. Because I’m like a man would [00:56:15] never be this helpful. So it’s a woman. Um, but yes. Claude [00:56:20] Cowork, um, I think I was messaging one of my colleagues. I spent £60 [00:56:25] this month so far on extra tokens because I keep running out of usage. [00:56:30] Wow. Um, it’s worth it though. Time is money.

Payman Langroudi: So what are you doing with it?

Ashley King: Okay, so, um, [00:56:35] we’re very fortunate at Pearl, by the way, to be able to be pretty [00:56:40] open with the AI systems we use.

Sophie Lovett: They really encourage it.

Ashley King: So many of my friends who I’m [00:56:45] like, are you using Claude Cowork? Like, I’m like a Claude evangelist, I should get a referral [00:56:50] code or something. But, um, what I do is I connect my gmail, [00:56:55] my notion, my meeting recording notes, my Slack, all of these different [00:57:00] entities that I’m working on into it. And then I use it to.

Payman Langroudi: Run [00:57:05] your whole life.

Ashley King: Run my entire life. Yeah. Like every morning it runs through my emails and tells [00:57:10] me which ones I should respond to automatically types out a draft in my like vocal. [00:57:15] How I would type my voice.

Payman Langroudi: Voice?

Ashley King: Yeah. Um, and this is just, this is surface [00:57:20] level stuff. But if you look at my Instagram algorithm, you were talking about the discover page earlier. It’s all about [00:57:25] clouds. That’s how I learn my scroll time is just flawed.

Sophie Lovett: But it’s we were [00:57:30] talking about this the other day and somebody described you absolutely beautifully, didn’t they? They said your toxic [00:57:35] productivity, um, Ashley is basically productive. So [00:57:40] we were talking about, although you’ve got all these automations, it’s [00:57:45] still not saving you time because you’re actually surfacing other things and newer things. So even [00:57:50] though you are productive in that you’re because you are now so productive, [00:57:55] you’re being asked to do more things. And so.

Ashley King: This is working at a Start-Up and you know.

Sophie Lovett: Exactly, [00:58:00] I think.

Ashley King: The, the, if I was working at an average job, corporate [00:58:05] especially, and, or even being a dentist, like the How I think about AI [00:58:10] for everyone is it’s going to do the stuff that you don’t want to do. [00:58:15] Sending emails. No one likes to check their emails. You know, all these things to allow you to do [00:58:20] actual meaningful work and also to do things like this. Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: Have conversations. [00:58:25]

Ashley King: Conversations with humans.

Payman Langroudi: And what we were talking about yesterday, we had a meeting and, uh, [00:58:30] I was discussing with my partner, there’s a few people in our organisation who’ve taken it on like [00:58:35] fully and a few who haven’t. And you can see the [00:58:40] ones who’ve taken it on are accelerating. Yeah. I mean, beyond anything, I [00:58:45] mean, we’ve got one, one girl who works for us who she’s started. She knows [00:58:50] more about toothpaste than I do, like in a, in a period of three months. Yeah. [00:58:55] We had a meeting with this chemist. Yeah. Like, and I was just [00:59:00] watching her talking to this chemist like three months ago. She had nothing to do with [00:59:05] toothpaste. Yeah. Wow. But she’s the type of person who will just dive into something, isn’t it? Yeah, [00:59:10] yeah, yeah.

Sophie Lovett: I think you have to be curious. And do you know what I, I [00:59:15] feel really lucky that we, I don’t feel that we worry about our [00:59:20] jobs because we’re looking at ways of adopting AI ourselves and working with it and, [00:59:25] you know, finding other other things to do to.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you mean you mean you’re not going to get replaced by AI?

Sophie Lovett: I [00:59:30] personally well, hopefully.

Payman Langroudi: Not, not yet.

Sophie Lovett: But, you know, there are you were mentioning, you know, it [00:59:35] can do emails and stuff. So I can see it being a huge worry for people. You know, if I was just doing data entry, [00:59:40] for example. Yeah. And things that. But, um, what I would like to stress [00:59:45] though, you know, not just with Pearl AI, but all these other LLMs, the large language [00:59:50] models, other AI’s is that we, we who use [00:59:55] it don’t ostracise others by making it sound too complicated because they, [01:00:00] they, anyone can use it. But I think people feel really, really shy [01:00:05] and nervous about using it because they just haven’t dipped their toe in the water yet. And people are almost creating [01:00:10] language that is a barrier to other people who haven’t yet dipped their toes in the water. [01:00:15]

Payman Langroudi: It’s serving us. It’s we’re serving it.

Sophie Lovett: So then that’s what you’re saying. You know, almost 50% of your [01:00:20] staff are 50% aren’t. You know, it shouldn’t be that way. You know, people should all be trying it. [01:00:25] Um, and, you know, if I could explain how to use it really, [01:00:30] really simply, it is, don’t use it as a way of googling something. You know, [01:00:35] what you put in is what you’ll get out. So you can, if you are super smart and you can do the essays [01:00:40] like you did at university, it will just help enhance that. But you still have to have the smarts to [01:00:45] put in to get the smarts out.

Ashley King: It’s a mirror. Just anything in life is a mirror. Let me tell you where I’m [01:00:50] concerned about. You know, the the people that are and aren’t using AI. I’m [01:00:55] worried about women because there’s a I saw a stat and it was like, [01:01:00] I think 50% less women are using AI tools [01:01:05] than men, right? And let me tell you why.

Sophie Lovett: That’s really interesting.

Ashley King: There’s this whole [01:01:10] one big reason. There’s a whole debate around the ethics of AI. [01:01:15] The amount of energy that it consumes, you know, and this is. Yeah, exactly. People [01:01:20] are also just worried that it’s going to take us away from the human element that we’ve spoken about. Very valid. [01:01:25] Any new technology that happens, we have fears, but I think women [01:01:30] tend to be more empathetic to that. And if you even [01:01:35] look at the jobs that women have, we’re more likely to be nurses, teachers, whatever. Whether that’s socially [01:01:40] programmed or inherent, that’s another topic. But because of that, a lot of [01:01:45] women, because of ethics are not using AI.

Payman Langroudi: They’re [01:01:50] worried about the planet, the environmental planet.

Ashley King: Also, just the fact that, you know, [01:01:55] robots take over, especially.

Payman Langroudi: Women are like slower adopters than men on tech tech. [01:02:00]

Sophie Lovett: I think it’s this boys club again, though, you know, it’s almost like.

Payman Langroudi: Ring.

Sophie Lovett: Fencing. Men are ring fencing. Things to [01:02:05] be like, oh, don’t worry, don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Look at it. Men haven’t done it. They like. Eyes moved so quickly. There’s a man telling you [01:02:10] not to go on.

Sophie Lovett: No, but I think, again, it’s this kind of ostracising by language, but also by, you know, [01:02:15] you know, don’t worry about looking at that. Don’t worry about it.

Ashley King: It was created by men as well. All most LMS are [01:02:20] were trained by men like the programmers were men, probably 80% of them. [01:02:25] And now men are using it and women are like, I’m worried that we’re being left behind and we’re going to regret.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get [01:02:30] on to the whole women, women in the workplace kind of subject. Yeah. Now let’s talk about [01:02:35] that. Let’s do that outside of AI. Leave AI to one side.

Sophie Lovett: We just talk about how our [01:02:40] team is just formed of the most indomitable women. Yeah we [01:02:45] are.

Payman Langroudi: We’re on purpose or by mistake.

Sophie Lovett: Um, I think it’s [01:02:50] by purpose that we’re all. I really think it.

Ashley King: Might partially be on purpose, even from some of our leaders [01:02:55] who have made hires. Yeah, absolutely. I’ve spoken to a fear about it. He’s like, I the [01:03:00] all the women that I’ve hired, they are the hardest workers. Yeah, they’re they get [01:03:05] things done. They don’t look at things surface level. They look at the entire picture and. [01:03:10]

Payman Langroudi: They say, okay, let me give you an example of what could be holding women back [01:03:15] in the workplace. And actually it’s for me, it’s like a double edged thing because I’ve [01:03:20] noticed not all women, but quite a lot of women. Yeah. Don’t [01:03:25] ever ask for a pay rise. They they wait, they wait. Not, not [01:03:30] you too. Obviously. They.

Sophie Lovett: Actually tell us what you got told [01:03:35] off for us.

Payman Langroudi: Let me give you some of my favourite employees. The [01:03:40] type of person who doesn’t ask.

Ashley King: You’re absolutely right. By the way, one of those essays I wrote.

Sophie Lovett: No [01:03:45] no no.

Payman Langroudi: No no, I’m telling you, they, they suffer by not asking.

Sophie Lovett: Totally because.

Payman Langroudi: There’s other people who [01:03:50] push hard. And in the end, you just don’t want to lose that person. So you give them more. Yeah. [01:03:55] And it’s it’s as I think it’s a female thing. Yeah, that too many women, you [01:04:00] know, maybe. Maybe it’s a man problem being over aggressive. Yeah, but too many [01:04:05] women wait to be asked or wait, you know, they don’t they don’t put their hand up.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. So for [01:04:10] me personally, I feel like everything had to be the right environment for me [01:04:15] to ask it. And I kept thinking about all the things that I was doing wrong that didn’t warrant it. Whereas [01:04:20] I think that sometimes men can just use a lack of critical thinking to go [01:04:25] in there and just be like me, one nasty, almost caveman like.

Payman Langroudi: Almost like a man who doesn’t [01:04:30] deserve it will last. But a woman who does deserve it won’t ask.

Sophie Lovett: And I think that sometimes [01:04:35] women also wait for times. We’re always like, [01:04:40] the diet will start on Monday, or we’re going to ask for it next quarter, or we’re going to ask [01:04:45] it in January when I know somebody else was. And I think that sometimes we almost adhere ourselves [01:04:50] too much to these timelines, whereas men I don’t know whether it’s because they don’t have kind of [01:04:55] lunar cycles are just like, now is fine, now is fine. So, [01:05:00] um, I, yeah, like I said, I, you know, I was joking about it, but Ashley and I have been [01:05:05] through this recently and I’m sorry, but it’s going to happen again in a couple of weeks because we really [01:05:10] want to buck that trend. And I think there are ways in which we can enable women [01:05:15] to do these things, but it does start with ourselves that we have to ask more because when you ask, [01:05:20] you get.

Payman Langroudi: At the same time, I don’t really believe in a gender pay gap.

Sophie Lovett: Um, [01:05:25] tell me more.

Ashley King: Okay, so one of those ten 000 word essays I wrote was [01:05:30] on the gender.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve looked into this.

Sophie Lovett: Um, ding ding ding.

Ashley King: Yeah. So, and [01:05:35] I didn’t write it with ChatGPT. So I actually remember when I wrote this was like ten [01:05:40] years ago, but you’re right in your theory, in terms of your theory of women do not ask [01:05:45] for raises as much as men. And, um, however, while that’s a big piece [01:05:50] and I’ve seen it even with my friends who I speak to, um, that don’t work at Pearl. [01:05:55] They’re they’re just very afraid. We’re we’re less risk averse in general. [01:06:00] That comes with socialisation as well. But if you do look at women [01:06:05] who have been successful and the higher the role of a woman. [01:06:10] So say I’m a CEO, you’re a CEO, the pay gap increases. [01:06:15]

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Sophie Lovett: So there’s not as many female CEOs [01:06:20] in the same industry.

Ashley King: Correct. And so if we’re a CEO in the same industry, [01:06:25] like let’s say you’re working for a competitor, um, you’re [01:06:30] probably making $0.40 on the dollar more than me versus [01:06:35] 20.

Payman Langroudi: But then don’t you think if that was the case, I would only hire women, [01:06:40] wouldn’t I? Because women are cheaper.

Ashley King: Maybe that’s why we have so many.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. But then okay, so you’ve got a woman [01:06:45] sitting in front of you. She’s great, but she’s just got married and she’s 31. [01:06:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ashley King: What do you what’s next.

Sophie Lovett: In your mind? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s going you’re right. It’s [01:06:55] going through my head. It’s going through.

Sophie Lovett: What’s going through your head.

Payman Langroudi: She’s going to have maternity soon.

Sophie Lovett: So why [01:07:00] don’t you just have a whole host of women, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Well [01:07:05] we do. We’ve got more women than men, right?

Sophie Lovett: Um, but so I was being facetious there. Right. [01:07:10] You know, I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Just if I’m honest in that situation, I’m thinking she’s going to be off soon. Maybe [01:07:15] for, for childcare. Yeah. That’s right. Now the reason for the pay gap is the childcare. [01:07:20] Yeah. Like that’s, you know.

Ashley King: Part of it.

Payman Langroudi: If your career gets cut by four years. That’s [01:07:25] absolutely part of it. You’re going to be behind. I think there’s not because you’re a woman. I think it’s twofold.

Ashley King: I [01:07:30] think it’s twofold. So you have we’re less likely to ask. [01:07:35] You have also maternity leave, things like that. Yeah. There is an inherent [01:07:40] bias that we all carry for whether it’s internal misogyny, like racism, [01:07:45] whatever bias we have, stereotypes that we hold, we might not even realise it. And I do think [01:07:50] I’ve experienced this, which I try to just not acknowledge it in my head because I think [01:07:55] your thoughts create your reality. So like, let’s not focus on this, but if I go to [01:08:00] my boss and ask for a raise every couple of months because my title keeps changing, [01:08:05] versus if a man who did the same thing did it, she’s also a woman. She might [01:08:10] not realise it, but it might piss her off that I did it versus him.

Speaker 7: Do you think [01:08:15] I mean.

Ashley King: Do you think people hold inherent biases?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:08:20] Well, then should we take it to the other side then? Let’s go. Surely [01:08:25] there’s some advantage to being a woman selling to some man.

Sophie Lovett: I’ll tell you what. I never used to think of any advantages [01:08:30] of being a woman. And now I see it all the time. I really do. I think that, um, [01:08:35] I think the the women are talking, you know, we are grouping together. Now. I [01:08:40] am talking more and more to my friends about, okay, where’s the best savings account? [01:08:45] How are we going to invest? You know? The conversations are really, really shifting. We’re talking [01:08:50] to each other about how, you know, you need to go in that room and ask for a pay rise. I [01:08:55] think the conversations are really shifting and shifting away from just [01:09:00] using the kind of preconceived notions of femininity, [01:09:05] but now using looking at femininity as more power. And [01:09:10] yeah, I think also women have always talked more. [01:09:15] And I think that makes us incredibly lucky. And we’ve got an advantage over men because [01:09:20] you just don’t open up, as you know, and being you know what’s interesting?

Payman Langroudi: I’ve been in some [01:09:25] I mean, maybe a few years ago, some like a boardroom in the US where there’s a woman [01:09:30] executive. Yeah. And she’s being incredibly aggressive and acting like a man. Yeah. [01:09:35] And I think this, this is the shift that we really need to see, that you don’t want to act [01:09:40] like an aggressive man. Yeah. As a woman, that’s that’s the.

Sophie Lovett: Worst shift, haven’t we, from that like, oh, [01:09:45] you’ve got to be a man. And to know we’ve now found our new thing. We’re not giving you [01:09:50] the secret, though, because I.

Ashley King: Think it goes back to have you. Have you [01:09:55] guys seen the Barbie movie? There’s that whole speech that. What is it, Cameron? I forget [01:10:00] her name, but she gives. She’s like, you have to be aggressive, but you can’t be too aggressive. You have to be [01:10:05] beautiful, but you can’t be too beautiful. It’s like all these things where it’s like, you [01:10:10] know, this is the way I think about life in general. We are all dealt a hand of cards. [01:10:15] Play your cards right. Don’t worry about what was dealt to you. It’s in your hand. Play [01:10:20] it like I could sit around and focus on. Does this person have an inherent bias? And is that [01:10:25] why they’re not giving me a raise? But that’s a waste of time. What hand have I been dealt [01:10:30] and how can I play it to the best of my ability? Um, I think I would. I’m [01:10:35] so glad that I’m a woman right now. I look at my mom and my grandma. They did not have the same opportunities as me [01:10:40] and.

Payman Langroudi: The shift then, I mean, you two are earning well, you’re, you know, [01:10:45] powerful businesswomen, right? The shift in society in that you no longer need [01:10:50] a man to look after you. Yeah. Like the, the classical old, like [01:10:55] the way your mom and grandma had to, like, get security from a marriage.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, yeah. I always had. [01:11:00]

Payman Langroudi: To.

Sophie Lovett: Come out to my parents.

Payman Langroudi: To relationships then.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Ashley King: Women expect men to have empathy [01:11:05] now. Oh, really? Basic empathy is required.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Ashley King: I think whereas before, [01:11:10] if you were providing financially, that was enough.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. I almost had to [01:11:15] kind of come out to my parents that I’m not going to get married and have children. And they [01:11:20] were really upset because I’ve got four brothers.

Payman Langroudi: You’re the only girl.

Sophie Lovett: I’m the only girl. And I [01:11:25] said to them, I then kind of framed it in a different way, um, and said, you know, [01:11:30] what do you want for me in general? And they said, we want you to be happy. And I said, this is what makes me happiest. [01:11:35] You know, the, you know, and I’m not a kind of I don’t think I’m doing it in [01:11:40] a masculine way, but I’m Working really, really hard and not saying that [01:11:45] that’s because I’m not with somebody and because I don’t have children, but I just really enjoy [01:11:50] this, this phase of my life. I really, really like it.

Payman Langroudi: But you never know because, I mean, I’ve [01:11:55] heard that so many times. And then the person’s got three kids.

Ashley King: You never know.

Sophie Lovett: I’m too old [01:12:00] for that now anyway.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Ashley King: No you’re not. What was it like? Cameron Diaz [01:12:05] had a baby at, like, 50 or something. Yeah, you never know.

Sophie Lovett: No. Thank you. I appreciate the.

Payman Langroudi: Reflections. I mean, [01:12:10] the difference does that in in dating, in marriage and all that. The [01:12:15] fact that you’re powerful, you’re self-reliant. Has that changed? Has that changed your relationship [01:12:20] with men?

Ashley King: I think for the better.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ashley King: Yeah. [01:12:25] I would say even just in the last year, I, I recently became single [01:12:30] at the end of last year and I was in a really long relationship before that. So [01:12:35] before and after I went from being pretty like low level, you know, trying to get by [01:12:40] to, you know, succeeding fairly well. I shouldn’t say that to British people. Sorry, we’re not [01:12:45] allowed to say that.

Sophie Lovett: I think I’m doing okay. I think because.

Ashley King: You’re approaching it, you’re [01:12:50] approaching dating when you’re in a circumstance like us is like, it’s just extra. [01:12:55] It’s it’s something to add. I’m a fully formed person. I expect you to be the same. Um, [01:13:00] it’s like I saw this thing and it said one plus one doesn’t equal two in a relationship. It equals 11. [01:13:05] The idea is that you’re both fully formed people. You come together and then the [01:13:10] your output is exponential.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Ashley King: That’s how I see it. So not having like [01:13:15] the scarcity like mentality around it is nice, but then no one has to give you.

Payman Langroudi: Anything like marriage [01:13:20] no longer as important as it was.

Sophie Lovett: I mean, for me, no, I mean, just I really [01:13:25] like my own space. I like coming home. I like looking after myself. I like doing, I it’s all about timing for me. [01:13:30] I want to do what I want to do on my own timing. And I know that that sounds and is [01:13:35] inherently selfish. But the choice for me is I want to do what I want to do [01:13:40] with my time.

Ashley King: I think it’d be selfish if you weren’t building and doing cool things that are ultimately [01:13:45] helping society, but.

Sophie Lovett: You will never know what it’s like to be a parent. And the [01:13:50] the real selflessness that goes into that.

Ashley King: I think I hot take this is contrarian. [01:13:55] Someone said this the other day, actually, it was a few months ago, but he was like, oh yeah, [01:14:00] I’m not I’m not having kids yet. I’m still being selfish. I actually think in a way, having kids [01:14:05] is selfish. And the reason I say that is twofold. Obviously, the fact [01:14:10] that we just already have so many people on this planet, like 8 billion people, that’s insane. [01:14:15] Do we need more people? You know, and we have limited resources on this planet. So [01:14:20] I think that’s a little selfish. But also, I think so many people have [01:14:25] kids because they’re looking for their children to provide them with a purpose. And it’s the default way to do that. It’s a very [01:14:30] easy way to find your purpose. And I think it can be a bit of a lazy way to find your purpose. This [01:14:35] is another thing.

Payman Langroudi: So you don’t want kids. Why are you not sure?

Ashley King: I’m not sure.

Sophie Lovett: I [01:14:40] don’t think either of us have written it off entirely. But at the moment, I think we’re kind of living for the moment. [01:14:45] I. I had this date once, and I didn’t. I don’t [01:14:50] know what happened, but the guy said to me, I have a real fetish of powerful women. I [01:14:55] was like, what? When did that become a thing?

Ashley King: Was this the guy that worked at, like, Jiffy [01:15:00] Lube? Sorry, that’s not like it’s like a.

Sophie Lovett: It was a nice guy, but [01:15:05] it was like, when did this become a fetish? And also, you know, I don’t know why I’m doing to come [01:15:10] across as this kind of powerhouse. It’s strange. It’s almost like.

Payman Langroudi: Did [01:15:15] it put you off?

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, I find it really strange. I found [01:15:20] it quite. Do you think you.

Ashley King: Come off as, like, masculine and powerful when you’re dating?

Sophie Lovett: No, but a bit. Maybe [01:15:25] a bit. Kind of. I if if something if somebody. I don’t like dilly dallying. Right. [01:15:30] So if it comes to the bill and somebody’s dilly dallying, I’ll just pay it.

Ashley King: Oh, yeah. No. Not [01:15:35] me. See, I’m. I’m the opposite in dating than I am at work. Like I’m at work. I’m [01:15:40] masculine. I’m getting shit done. When I’m dating. I’m like a totally different [01:15:45] person.

Payman Langroudi: Well that’s interesting.

Ashley King: Yeah. I step into my feminine energy because [01:15:50] I’m, you know, I’m a woman.

Sophie Lovett: Is that because you think guys like to kind of look [01:15:55] at you feel that they want to look after somebody?

Ashley King: Um, like I [01:16:00] don’t, I don’t necessarily, I don’t know, I think it’s like our masculine [01:16:05] and feminine energy complement each other, obviously. And there are some relationships [01:16:10] where the woman is more masculine, the man is more feminine, and it’s even and personally, [01:16:15] like we’re always, everyone has masculine and feminine energy, even boys. And for [01:16:20] me though, I just like feel most relaxed when I’m in my feminine [01:16:25] more leaning toward my feminine energy. And I want a man to pay and plan. Okay, [01:16:30] then I’m there.

Payman Langroudi: Controversial, controversial question. Then I look at my friend group [01:16:35] here and out of the people I know, there’s maybe four couples [01:16:40] where the woman’s clearly out earning the man. Yeah. And [01:16:45] I used to think, why not? Yeah. I think what’s what’s wrong with that? You know, [01:16:50] completely like egalitarian, sort of progressive kind of view on it. But when I [01:16:55] look at those four relationships, only one of them’s really worked. Yeah. And that one, her [01:17:00] father had 100 million. You know, there was no way this.

Ashley King: What do you think the difference is between [01:17:05] them?

Payman Langroudi: So this is the thing. I think it’s a little bit for a man emasculating. It’s a little bit like for [01:17:10] a man, let’s say you have an argument, a guy and a girl and the woman is [01:17:15] earning more than the man. Yeah. In that argument, if money comes up, which often, [01:17:20] often money is a cause of friction, right? If money comes up in that argument, [01:17:25] a man to be told he’s not earning his keep is a [01:17:30] much bigger insult than for a woman.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, so, so, so it [01:17:35] and a lot of women are aware of the size of that insult to a man. Like for a man, it’s [01:17:40] a big deal not being able to provide.

Ashley King: Why do you think that is?

Payman Langroudi: Because of programming. Yeah. But but yeah, but [01:17:45] also because of maybe the way we are chemically. Right. And like the way you switch in, in your dating [01:17:50] to this feminine thing because you are this feminine thing. Yeah. That’s real. Yeah. Maybe you’re switching at [01:17:55] work to this masculine thing. You know, the real you is the, the date you, you know, for whatever. [01:18:00] I mean, not.

Ashley King: Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: And those relationships just aren’t right. You know, if the man is feeling inferior, [01:18:05] if the woman is feeling like she needs.

Payman Langroudi: How do you feel about dating or marrying someone [01:18:10] who earns less than you? And by the way, it’s a huge industry. It’s a huge.

Sophie Lovett: Industry like ambition. [01:18:15] And I like lack of laziness and I like drive. And I think that if you’re striving towards [01:18:20] something, often that yearning towards something is then [01:18:25] shown as earning. So I think it’s about a drive and an and energy.

Payman Langroudi: But not always. [01:18:30]

Sophie Lovett: No, no, no, but it’s not. And you know, you can have people who start businesses. But I just think that, um, I [01:18:35] just really.

Ashley King: Wanted to the you’re worried about the person’s values versus their income.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. [01:18:40] That’s it.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So let’s say you get together with someone and you earn twice what he [01:18:45] earns, and then you’re buying a house or something and you’re paying twice as much for this house.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. Well, I [01:18:50] pay for everything anyway. And secondly, I’m always going to live alone and not with anyone. So it just doesn’t it just [01:18:55] doesn’t bother me. I didn’t do.

Payman Langroudi: Any rule on this. Do you find it, like, problematic [01:19:00] if you’re dating someone who earns less than you?

Sophie Lovett: I mean, I find it.

Ashley King: It’s probably I [01:19:05] would say that it’s statistically likely that someone would [01:19:10] earn less. I think it’s like 80% of people in the UK, like make less than 60 K [01:19:15] or something or 40 K.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But statistics.

Ashley King: Are statistically. Yeah. But um, [01:19:20] no, you know what, I think I agree with you, Sophie, that it’s the values that [01:19:25] matter. I want someone that’s a hard worker. But also there’s to me, you can provide [01:19:30] value outside of money and capitalism, right? Like [01:19:35] if you’re doing the little things like making sure we don’t [01:19:40] run out of milk for our tea in the morning, you know, it’s much more [01:19:45] than just a dollar amount.

Sophie Lovett: Tightness is a curse. Tightness is a curse, you know, [01:19:50] but you can.

Payman Langroudi: Overspending is a curse.

Sophie Lovett: Overspending is a curse. But you go to places that are fit [01:19:55] within what you can afford, you know, so it wouldn’t. I think the good thing about women is that we do [01:20:00] not need to be showing off all the time. As soon as a man is earning a certain amount, I actually, this [01:20:05] is the one thing that I really think has changed recently in my mind about why [01:20:10] it’s so good to be a woman is that as soon as a man starts earning more, [01:20:15] he then has to start going to the clubs that show he earns more. He has to send [01:20:20] his kids to private school to, you know, then go to the private dentist or go to the clubs [01:20:25] and have, you know, I’m a member of this. I’m a member of that. I’m wearing the.

Payman Langroudi: Woman to buy a handbag or whatever. [01:20:30]

Sophie Lovett: But they don’t have to, you know, it could be that the woman could just do much more [01:20:35] silent wealth. We don’t have to, you know, our friendship groups tend to stay the same. We actually tend to stay with. [01:20:40] And then.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right in that a man’s value ends up sometimes being how much money he makes, and.

Sophie Lovett: Then.

Payman Langroudi: It can.

Sophie Lovett: Cost [01:20:45] so much more. So actually, when they sometimes when people earn more, it means it unlocks [01:20:50] different opportunities that can be much more costly [01:20:55] where. And also it’s, you know, if other men because as [01:21:00] I said, I’ve got four brothers. If other men don’t see that person spending in line with their new [01:21:05] wealth, that will be questioned, whereas women will say, well done, this is amazing, you know, [01:21:10] and then they’ll start talking about how how they can get there. I have a I had a really interesting [01:21:15] week this week already. I did, um, a specialist [01:21:20] training with two different specialist practice this week. One was all [01:21:25] female specialists and one was all male specialists. I’ve never had that before.

Payman Langroudi: All female [01:21:30] specialists.

Sophie Lovett: All female specialists. And then I like that you weren’t surprised about the all male specialists. Um, [01:21:35] but the difference in the conversation, the women were saying [01:21:40] whenever someone was asking a question, they were saying, oh yeah, I want to know that too. Can you expand on it? And it was kind [01:21:45] of like this group mentality of everyone was supporting each other. So when I did [01:21:50] the male specialist training, I don’t know how it happened like this. They were po faced. [01:21:55] They didn’t say anything. It was the hardest one. And then they just fired these questions and it was almost [01:22:00] like they were.

Ashley King: Like, gotcha questions.

Sophie Lovett: Oh yeah.

Ashley King: Rather than like curiosity.

Sophie Lovett: Competition, competition. [01:22:05] And nobody was saying, oh, I wanted to find that out too. And well done. And then in the corridor, they [01:22:10] all came up to me and they were secretly asking questions and saying how much they loved it. I [01:22:15] thought, what did you say in the South? Oh, bless your hearts. You know, it’s a shame that [01:22:20] they couldn’t do it.

Payman Langroudi: The reason I bring up this earning thing here. It’s huge in dentistry. There’s loads of [01:22:25] women are primary earner dentists that they [01:22:30] are dentists. The husband isn’t. Yeah. And dentists earn a lot. Some of them. Yeah. So there’s loads of [01:22:35] those. And there’s loads of hygienists who are the primary earner in their house. [01:22:40] And so I’d say it’s a bigger issue. I mean there are more not an issue. [01:22:45] But there’s there’s more women who are primary earners in dentistry than there [01:22:50] is out there in society. And as I say, I like [01:22:55] ultra progressive to the end. And yet now when I see these couples [01:23:00] that I’m talking about now, I’m thinking maybe.

Sophie Lovett: Don’t worry though, because the grandkids are getting married to [01:23:05] robots.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah.

Ashley King: That’s a concern. But I [01:23:10] want to weigh in.

Sophie Lovett: Question is mu.

Ashley King: Let me tell you, like all of these all [01:23:15] these conversations we are having, I think they start off [01:23:20] as how is the patriarchy affecting women? Is what we could say, right? Yeah, yeah. Okay. [01:23:25] But one thing we don’t talk about is how it’s affecting men as well. [01:23:30] So you just gave a great example, Sophie. But I also think that [01:23:35] this like, fundamental way that it’s programmed us men and women [01:23:40] hurts us. So in terms of if I’m in a relationship and I’m making more money, [01:23:45] and I’m with a man who, rather than actually being like in his true healthy masculine [01:23:50] is almost too programmed by the patriarchy to overvalue [01:23:55] the dollar amount. Yeah, yeah. Then it’s not going to go well [01:24:00] because his ego is just going to be hurt the entire time. So I think it’s the answer [01:24:05] to me is absolutely, those relationships can work, but you need someone who’s very secure in themselves [01:24:10] and isn’t ascribing to these like, ideals that are coming from these systems. [01:24:15]

Payman Langroudi: Have you been you’ve been to Holland? Yeah, I’ve.

Sophie Lovett: Been to the Netherlands.

Payman Langroudi: In in in Netherlands, you can’t hold a [01:24:20] door open for a woman. It’s a bit rude.

Sophie Lovett: I know we kept walking into.

Ashley King: The door open for everyone, but [01:24:25] for men and women.

Payman Langroudi: As a man, it’s a bit rude, you know, like the after you like it’s it’s not.

Sophie Lovett: On [01:24:30] there that that that saying go Dutch, go Dutch. Exactly.

Ashley King: I held the door open yesterday in [01:24:35] Greece for a man. He was very offended. Is that right? So you got to be careful holding [01:24:40] the door open for people, apparently.

Sophie Lovett: But, you know, so we were in the Netherlands not too long ago at the Netherlands [01:24:45] Dental show.

Payman Langroudi: And I love the Dutch. They are.

Sophie Lovett: Amazing. We love it. They come [01:24:50] up to us and they say we we hate you. We hate the look of you. We don’t like this. And [01:24:55] we think, oh my God, they’re so honest. Yeah. And then they say, and you think, oh gosh, [01:25:00] what’s the point of being here? And then they say, we will buy ten of your products. It’s just [01:25:05] it’s, you know, but yeah, it’s, it’s great. The honesty. We, we like that, don’t we? But [01:25:10] yeah, and what I found even in the Netherlands is a lot of people coming up and saying, [01:25:15] and a lot of hygienists own practices out there, and they say, I’m just a hygienist. [01:25:20] So I was thinking all of this great progression that they have in the Netherlands, [01:25:25] but people are still saying, I’m just a hygienist. I was like.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a there’s [01:25:30] a hierarchy in dentistry. You know, it’s difficult, but it’s real.

Sophie Lovett: But I’m talking about [01:25:35] there were probably about seven people who said that to me. All practice owners hygiene [01:25:40] only. So it’s not. So again, one thing I’ve really, really noticed about dentistry is it’s a pyramid [01:25:45] scheme of this kind of God figure at the top. And then it’s just always this pyramid [01:25:50] scheme. But you know, when you take away the that what is perceived as the head [01:25:55] of the pyramid scheme, i.e. the dentist or the specialist dentist away from it, why should [01:26:00] anybody be just, you know, why is anyone just we’ve got some amazing hygienist therapists, you’ve got Kat [01:26:05] London therapists and stuff. I think perceptions about roles really need to change [01:26:10] as well. And I think, again, that’s a feminine thing, a feminist thing. I think that we need [01:26:15] to start really talking ourselves up and being like, we’re doing a hell of a lot more as therapists and hygienists as some [01:26:20] dentists are. But I just thought that I’m just a was really surprising, particularly [01:26:25] in the Netherlands, where.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a country like that. Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: And, you know, my arm was hurting from having [01:26:30] to open my own doors.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s get to some quick fires. What [01:26:35] would you guys say is your favourite business influence? Like your, your [01:26:40] person in business that you admire the most.

Ashley King: Inside or outside of Pearl? [01:26:45]

Payman Langroudi: Outside of Pearl?

Ashley King: I’m really into Fred Kaufman right now. Who’s [01:26:50] that? He talks about compassionate leadership.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Ashley King: Not many people know [01:26:55] about him. I learned about him from the CEO of LinkedIn, Jeff Weiner. Um, [01:27:00] he has this theory that businesses [01:27:05] fail because they go down two paths, which is I’m [01:27:10] responsible for my portion. You’re responsible for yours. So it’s more of like a democratic. And [01:27:15] then like what we do individually will make the company succeed. So that’s one path. Then there’s like the [01:27:20] more communist path, which is like we all pitch in, but we all know that that model does not [01:27:25] work. Um, his thing is in order to mitigate [01:27:30] silos, but also not be too communistic, you need to have [01:27:35] compassionate leadership, which is undying support and love for the people [01:27:40] that you work with. And so it’s almost like this emotional piece fitting [01:27:45] in with the logic of business. And I just think [01:27:50] it’s beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting though, you said to me, I said to her fear about, um, business [01:27:55] being like a bit of a family, which is kind of what you’re alluding to. And he said, he said, [01:28:00] certainly not pro sports team, not family.

Ashley King: No, I agree with that statement. And [01:28:05] okay, let me let me put it this way. You’re a goalie. What’s your job? [01:28:10]

Payman Langroudi: Uh, Cody.

Ashley King: What’s [01:28:15] your what’s your job on the team? What’s your. Yeah, [01:28:20] but what do you do?

Sophie Lovett: I say he doesn’t like football.

Ashley King: You save goals. I don’t [01:28:25] like football either. But everyone knows what a goalie does, right? And most people’s answer [01:28:30] is block the ball from going into the goal. Right. But no, that’s not their job. Their job is to win. [01:28:35] Yeah, yeah. And so it’s this idea that people can, in a [01:28:40] company, you can become so self-focused if you don’t have support and love for the people [01:28:45] around you, you won’t be actually successful. I don’t the family thing is toxic. [01:28:50] Yeah. Like they say, you can’t fire your family. I think that’s what a fear said. Um, we’re [01:28:55] all working towards one goal together though, and it’s going to be a lot more fun. We’re going to be a lot more [01:29:00] successful if we actually like each other and support each other.

Payman Langroudi: For sure, for sure. And you’re kind of alluding to that famous [01:29:05] story about the janitor at the NASA who’s helping put the guy on the moon or whatever. Yeah. [01:29:10]

Ashley King: Same with the hygienist, right?

Sophie Lovett: Do you know what? I’m gonna be really [01:29:15] boring here, but every day I’m looking at what makes a commercial dental [01:29:20] practice or group run. And I’m not not found [01:29:25] the sweet spot yet because it’s it’s so different. But you can look at people like [01:29:30] Anushka from Dermira Dev Patel. I mean, what Fazeela has done for Coliseum. And then [01:29:35] you can look at something completely different, like Mark Allen’s impact at Bupa. [01:29:40] And I think that I know these aren’t people who’ve written well, maybe they are haven’t necessarily [01:29:45] written books, but they’ve all done something that is completely different. I mean, [01:29:50] dev looks at the US model and he’s got the kind of beauty partners model they’ve they’ve [01:29:55] just bought in Curadon. You’ve got Anushka who is just [01:30:00] I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Extraordinary.

Sophie Lovett: Extraordinary in every sense in terms of how [01:30:05] she procures, how she runs her team. Everything. I mean, I [01:30:10] there must be 70 of her. I don’t know how she how she does it. And then she goes and does a marathon.

Speaker 8: Three [01:30:15] children, three children.

Sophie Lovett: Stunningly beautiful, you know. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: I was thinking [01:30:20] more outside of that.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. But I mean, I’m just looking at it from the commercial perspective as well, because now [01:30:25] nowadays where we’re looking to move, you know, we’re moving much away from the NHS model and [01:30:30] we’re still within an NHS system, how people are making this commercial [01:30:35] entity drive in. Um, you know, we’ve, we’ve went from kind [01:30:40] of like veneers ten, 15 years ago now we’ve got composite [01:30:45] and then it’s clear aligners and stuff. These people are constantly changing but constantly evolving and adapting [01:30:50] to this crazy commercial landscape. Um, and outside of, [01:30:55] outside of dental. Um, my absolute [01:31:00] mentor, um, Jess Clydesdale, who I went to university with [01:31:05] has been instrumental in, um, absolutely everything I’ve done in [01:31:10] terms of what jobs I’ve taken, what I should ask for, who I, who I speak [01:31:15] to about getting a pay rise. Like we bully each other up. Um, and I’m going to be a [01:31:20] complete sycophant here and say that Ashley and I talk every single day about how we can be better [01:31:25] every day. Um, yeah. Like I can look to these books and stuff.

Speaker 8: But man, [01:31:30] you.

Payman Langroudi: It’s obvious you’re enjoying yourself at the same time. It’s obvious you’re very professional. [01:31:35] You know, you’re, you’ve got a goal. You know, it’s not just fun.

Ashley King: It’s like you’re in it to win it. But [01:31:40] we’re.

Payman Langroudi: Also.

Ashley King: We’re best friends. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And but it’s obvious you’re loving it. You know, you’re loving relationship. [01:31:45]

Sophie Lovett: You know what? We’re not always we don’t always. I feel like we don’t say what we want [01:31:50] to hear all the time. Like we say the things that are harder hitting that, you know, when [01:31:55] you love somebody so deeply that you can say things that are going to be constructively critical. [01:32:00] One of the best, best things that’s happened in my life is Ashley King in terms of [01:32:05] I think we’ve just really kind of supported each other up and we don’t [01:32:10] get jealous of each other. We are so excited. I mean, this was just supposed to be you today and [01:32:15] we just could be apart.

Ashley King: We’re a package deal. I there’s stats [01:32:20] that say if you work with your best friend, you’re more productive and you’re more likely to stay at your company. [01:32:25] Makes sense. And then at previous companies, I still talk to my best friend at that last [01:32:30] company. Like one of them, she just had a baby. And we send voice memos, you know, [01:32:35] weekly. And so I think it goes back to we’re spending most of our time at work. Why [01:32:40] not love the people that you work with? And it doesn’t mean that you’re the identity of your relationship [01:32:45] has to revolve completely around work. And it doesn’t mean that they have to [01:32:50] be family, because I think you can use and abuse people if you label them that way. But, [01:32:55] um, there’s just, I mean, we’re spending the time at work. Why not [01:33:00] do the most important thing in life and build relationships that matter.

Sophie Lovett: I think pearls is quite lucky [01:33:05] that it has such a well, it’s, you know, it’s done things. It’s done so many things right, [01:33:10] but it’s got such we’ve got such a good team. We’re about what, 300 now in the company. And but [01:33:15] there’s people who like working together. And because of that, I mean we work more hours than we [01:33:20] would if we didn’t enjoy each other’s company. Yeah. We have the best team here in the UK.

Ashley King: We’ll go to [01:33:25] dinner sometimes and, you know, just end up talking about work the whole time and then we’ll solve a [01:33:30] huge problem. But you know, you think about Paul Graham, who he he’s over Y Combinator. [01:33:35] He’s been a bunch of the early start-ups tech start-ups. He says don’t [01:33:40] start a company without a co-founder.

Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah. His big thing.

Ashley King: Yeah. It’s [01:33:45] super important. So you need to have your people and Sophie’s mine.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:33:50] about if I say, what’s your biggest mistake you’ve made in business? [01:33:55]

Ashley King: Um, for me, I would say trying [01:34:00] too hard.

Payman Langroudi: Trying to sell something [01:34:05] to someone who doesn’t want to buy it.

Speaker 8: Yeah.

Ashley King: Or just, you know, you work with a partner, it’s not working [01:34:10] or you’re trying to go into a territory. The territory is a good example.

Sophie Lovett: I think it’s [01:34:15] a mistake. I love, you know, we’re.

Ashley King: Still working on it. We haven’t given up. But like we just don’t [01:34:20] have the right people or things in place right now to be successful there. Yeah. And it’s like sunk cost fallacy [01:34:25] almost. But I look back at all of the amazing things [01:34:30] that have happened to me and my successes, and a lot of them did not involve an [01:34:35] enormous amount of effort of trying to make it work.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right.

Ashley King: It’s I believe.

Sophie Lovett: It was something that [01:34:40] just fit like it’s.

Ashley King: Alignment. Yeah, yeah. So I think, and, and when you’re trying [01:34:45] too hard, you’re not having fun.

Speaker 8: Yeah. You’re right.

Sophie Lovett: You know, something Ashley does is she’ll [01:34:50] tell you what she’s great at. And then you look at what she’s great at. My biggest mistake in [01:34:55] business and life was I used to not speak very nicely about myself, so I would go [01:35:00] in maybe for a 1 to 1 with a manager and I would say, I’m so sorry I haven’t done this yet. I’m [01:35:05] so, you know, apologising, you know, maybe not to that extent, but directing people towards my [01:35:10] flaws.

Speaker 8: Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: And again, I think that this is where I’m trying to change that. Maybe it’s a masculine thing [01:35:15] where you go in and you say, I have done this, I’m doing amazingly. How you know I’m [01:35:20] indispensable.

Payman Langroudi: It’s kind of a self-confidence issue, I guess.

Sophie Lovett: And it’s totally changed in [01:35:25] the last few years. Um, it has completely transformed. And now I just feel so confident [01:35:30] about going in and saying, here’s what I’m doing. You need me. But for a long time, that wasn’t [01:35:35] the case. Or in my perception was that. But perception is reality, as you always say.

Ashley King: I [01:35:40] think that you made a good point about it being a confidence thing, because what [01:35:45] Sophie is, is very authentic. But if if you’re being authentic [01:35:50] and you don’t actually like yourself, yeah, you know, authenticity is great, [01:35:55] but make sure you like yourself first.

Sophie Lovett: But we have. We collectively [01:36:00] we have been. Some of our biggest mistakes are that we have ground [01:36:05] ourselves to the bone. Right. And we have worked so hard. And then every now and then we just need to stop and say, what’s it [01:36:10] for? Okay. You live life once. We also need to go. Have a lovely time.

Ashley King: Yeah. Go [01:36:15] on.

Sophie Lovett: Holiday. Yeah. And I think both, every time we reset and do something that’s away from work, [01:36:20] we come back with just a better mentality, a way of going [01:36:25] about things. And, you know, it’s not just about being in this bubble.

Payman Langroudi: I also think it’s [01:36:30] important to have those times during the week, you know, times where you’re not full on. [01:36:35] Yeah. Times, time. I think it’s important to have time where you’re not expected [01:36:40] to do anything. Yeah.

Ashley King: Are you talking about. I [01:36:45] think of this in two ways. Like personal selfish time has nothing to do [01:36:50] with work or anyone else. It’s like pursuing.

Payman Langroudi: What I’m saying. It’s good for work. It’s good for.

Ashley King: You. So you’re talking. So the second [01:36:55] way I was going to say is, and this is what two women who are very successful at our [01:37:00] company have told me, they said you need at least 90 minutes a week, preferably [01:37:05] a day to strategize. Yeah. You’re not doing anything. So I’ve [01:37:10] tried to like bake that into my schedule.

Sophie Lovett: And what, like strategizing about your life outside of work? [01:37:15]

Ashley King: No. At work? Yeah. Like if you’re in meetings.

Payman Langroudi: When I was when I was an associate dentist, I [01:37:20] mean, as a practice principle, like it’s a different story, but an associate dentist, I went from [01:37:25] 5 to 4 days, and on the fifth day I thought I’d be [01:37:30] enlightened. Yeah. Yeah. There would be no enlightened if I was working five days a week.

Sophie Lovett: Is that what you called it? [01:37:35] Enlightened? Was it an enlightening moment for you on that fifth day? Sounds [01:37:40] quite biblical.

Payman Langroudi: But honestly, I wouldn’t have. I really wouldn’t have. Because on that [01:37:45] fifth day, I was reading self-development books. 26 year old kid. I was reading self-development books [01:37:50] and I was thinking about what to do and all of that. Um, and, but now [01:37:55] that I reckon 90 minutes a day is actually right. Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: One of our core values [01:38:00] at Pearl is be an owner. Mhm. And yeah, that really feeds [01:38:05] into that. And I think they genuinely do not micromanage. They allow us to do [01:38:10] our thing, you know, provided that you’re doing something that is for the cause. And it’s allowed [01:38:15] us, as you said earlier, doing this, doing things that have really got Pearl’s name out there. I [01:38:20] mean.

Payman Langroudi: Now you’ve done a good job, you’ve done a good job.

Sophie Lovett: I think we’ve done an excellent job. Yeah. [01:38:25] I mean, who knew about Pearl wasn’t here before 2020, [01:38:30] 2019. And now, you know, if you haven’t got [01:38:35] it, you know about it. This is based on a few people in the UK team.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:38:40] think maybe now’s a good time to talk about your competitor.

Sophie Lovett: Go on then.

Payman Langroudi: Go [01:38:45] on.

Sophie Lovett: We don’t see them.

Ashley King: We have we have several competitors. Yeah we have a which one are you talking about. [01:38:50]

Payman Langroudi: So what’s your USP? As as you know, in this in this category, in this space, compared to [01:38:55] competitors USP, I mean, um, let’s just go with Overjet for the sake of the argument.

Sophie Lovett: I [01:39:00] like this question. Right. So we have been put on this land on this UK territory. [01:39:05] Yeah. To learn and listen, the reason that we have partners in the Netherlands [01:39:10] looking for some in Australia, in the Nordics is because Pearl knows [01:39:15] that dentistry is different in every single different territory. What really sets us apart [01:39:20] is the product here is not the same as it is in the US. It’s different. We have [01:39:25] gathered information that’s allowed us to be super compliant [01:39:30] in the different territories. Some of them, some of our, our, um, competitor [01:39:35] products. They’re not patient facing because they’ve not got the compliance because they don’t know where to look. [01:39:40] So I think one of the things is the robustness of the data that’s trained the product. And [01:39:45] that’s not just we’ve just looked at people in the US, The product has been trained on [01:39:50] radiographs from all over the world. Okay, we’ve listened to what is needed. We’ve [01:39:55] got rid of what’s extraneous and what’s not required for the UK or other territories. [01:40:00] And we’re here. We have clinicians in the UK who work for Pearl who [01:40:05] understand UK dentistry. Again, our partners have clinicians in [01:40:10] the Netherlands and the Nordics who understand UK dentistry territory dentistry. That [01:40:15] is for me, the biggest differentiator. And first and foremost, [01:40:20] we’re actually within the products themselves. So we understand the workflow as well. We do not sit [01:40:25] in our rooms all day. We go out, we go into.

Payman Langroudi: The positioning of Pearl compared [01:40:30] to other competitors.

Ashley King: So I think like right now, Sophie gave a good picture as [01:40:35] to why we’re different in this moment. Fundamentally, [01:40:40] as an organisation. My big I’m [01:40:45] like an evangelist on culture. It’s really annoying and it sounds really cheesy, [01:40:50] but culture eats strategy for breakfast.

Sophie Lovett: Mhm.

Ashley King: The [01:40:55] people at Pearl and our mission and vision is what differentiates [01:41:00] us from our partner or our competitors. I also ascribe [01:41:05] to. I’m reading 0 to 1 right now by Peter Thiel. Say what you may about him. He’s [01:41:10] a genius.

Payman Langroudi: The book.

Ashley King: Yeah. Yeah. Good book. And his thing is, competition is for losers, right? We [01:41:15] created a product where really no one had had created a 2D detection. [01:41:20] We have a few competitors now, but where we’re moving and the movements [01:41:25] that we’re making, you can see in the US to add on workflow efficiency [01:41:30] products, etc.. And we plan on doing this globally as well, [01:41:35] catered to the specific markets. It goes back to what our ethos [01:41:40] is, which is allowing dentists to provide the best patient care and get back to dentistry. [01:41:45] Um, and I think because we have this fundamental [01:41:50] altruistic in a way, like we want to make dentistry, we’re elevating [01:41:55] the standard of dentistry, right? This is our why. And that that’s going to be out any [01:42:00] competitor where that’s not clear.

Payman Langroudi: So look, I mean, if you had $1 billion [01:42:05] exit before. Yeah. So he knows what he’s doing. Yeah. But what is he doing. [01:42:10] I mean, how is it that the culture is so like you’re on the other side of the world? How do they get their culture [01:42:15] over to you?

Ashley King: I think I mean, you said it, he he could have probably just retired [01:42:20] if he wanted to. He’s doing it for the love of the game. And he’s doing it because he wants to impact an industry.

Payman Langroudi: Like [01:42:25] if you were advising me, I want to get culture through to my team.

Sophie Lovett: He came here, right?

Payman Langroudi: There’s only 40 of them. [01:42:30]

Sophie Lovett: He comes to see us. This is the thing. You know, he has a real presence.

Ashley King: Number one for sure.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [01:42:35]

Sophie Lovett: He really is a presence. Yeah. It’s his baby. And you’ve got to remember, he is the son of a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:42:40] yeah, yeah.

Sophie Lovett: And, uh, the his co-founder, Doctor Carl Stanley.

Ashley King: I think it’s really [01:42:45] basic. It’s like it goes back to the Simon Sinek start with why like all this, what’s your [01:42:50] why? But the way that you actually execute on it is [01:42:55] showing up. And you have to tell your team what it is and [01:43:00] keep saying it over and over. Repetition, get them bought in. Also, I’m like so much more excited to go to work [01:43:05] and say, I’m, I’m fundamentally changing dentistry than I’m glad I’m, I’m adding shareholder value. [01:43:10] Like no one wakes up in the morning wanting to do that.

Payman Langroudi: Of course.

Sophie Lovett: I think he, you know, I think he likes the people he works with as well. [01:43:15] You know, he wants to have this. He’s a cool guy. He’s an amazing product. He’s an absolute [01:43:20] genius, isn’t he? Yeah. But this weekend he was whatsapping me. You know, he it feels really [01:43:25] personal. And again, it feels like that we’re passing that on [01:43:30] to our users as well. We work with people we like to work with, but we also [01:43:35] provide value with this product. That’s excellent. I think you kind of have to have both. You [01:43:40] know, the reason that people buy something sometimes is like, oh yeah, it’s a great product. But actually [01:43:45] I really like who I’m working with. These guys know what they’re doing. We know what we’re doing, and [01:43:50] I think we really listen as well. And that’s what affair does. He still runs all the company calls [01:43:55] us. And you know, if he wants to chime in [01:44:00] and say something, he will. It’s really personal.

Ashley King: It’s authentic. It just goes. And [01:44:05] you know, you’re talking about the 3D reality and what we can see. But they say authenticity [01:44:10] has like the highest vibration and like wavelength. That’s what the spiritual world says. [01:44:15] And I think that that is what it’s authenticity. Yeah. We’re [01:44:20] all here. And you trust me, you’re not going to work at Pearl if you don’t believe in the mission and vision, because you’re going [01:44:25] to work really hard for something you don’t care about, right? We’re all here because we love the [01:44:30] mission we have. And like, we love the game. So. And that comes from [01:44:35] top down, right?

Payman Langroudi: It is cool.

Sophie Lovett: It’s really cool, isn’t it? I was doing some filming, uh, with [01:44:40] a group called Jen Smile. Stunning practices, by the way. Went to my first dental [01:44:45] practice with a swimming pool. Thank you.

Ashley King: Okay.

Sophie Lovett: It was gorgeous.

Ashley King: Can we go there this summer and just [01:44:50] get a tan? Absolutely.

Sophie Lovett: Jen, smile if you’re listening. Um, and, uh, so I was doing the filming [01:44:55] and this videographer came along and he said to me, it was really nice filming something [01:45:00] where I understood the product whilst I was filming it. So he had no idea about it beforehand. But [01:45:05] um, he said he got it really, really quickly. He said it [01:45:10] was such a cool product, but it also makes him filming a lot easier because [01:45:15] he knows where to sort of change things, cut things when when he knows what it is. He says he films [01:45:20] so many times where he just absolutely has no idea what the person does or the company does.

Ashley King: Wow. [01:45:25]

Sophie Lovett: Um, so we’ve just got so many different things. We’ve got so many [01:45:30] strings to this bow that just, I feel really privileged to be able to work here. It’s, I mean, there’s people [01:45:35] lining up to work here. It’s it’s tough. It’s so tough. Um, [01:45:40] but it’s so rewarding as well.

Payman Langroudi: I did a bit on another pod. Yeah. And I [01:45:45] enjoyed it. So I want to throw it in now. It’s unrelated to kind of work. It’s kind of a guilty pleasures [01:45:50] section. What’s your guilty pleasure when it comes to food? [01:45:55] Fast food.

Ashley King: Honest [01:46:00] burger.

Payman Langroudi: Honest.

Ashley King: I’m a big fan.

Payman Langroudi: Have you had have you had the black [01:46:05] Bear?

Ashley King: No.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness. There’s one around the corner. Unbelievable.

Ashley King: Let’s go.

Sophie Lovett: What’s yours? [01:46:10] Is that.

Payman Langroudi: Kfc? Kfc?

Sophie Lovett: No, no, no, it’s not that.

Ashley King: That’s a [01:46:15] good choice.

Sophie Lovett: My mum used to make when she was at university. She’d like, does this whole, uh, woe [01:46:20] is me thing? And she went to Preston Polytechnic, which I think is now the University of Central Lancashire. [01:46:25] Um, but she used to make soup with KFC bones. [01:46:30]

Payman Langroudi: Oh yeah.

Sophie Lovett: She was a poor student, apparently. And so no, not, necessarily. [01:46:35] I don’t know, whatever I have anything.

Payman Langroudi: Guilty pleasure. Music.

Ashley King: Oh. [01:46:40] Like 90s. Country. Country.

Sophie Lovett: 90s country.

Ashley King: Shania Twain. [01:46:45] Oh, yeah. I’m going out tonight. Looks like we made [01:46:50] it. Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: I could just listen to divorced.

Ashley King: After that song.

Sophie Lovett: I [01:46:55] could listen to The kinks and and Fleetwood Mac and Beatles all day on repeat. [01:47:00]

Ashley King: Oh, sunny day by the kinks.

Payman Langroudi: Before your time.

Sophie Lovett: Slightly before my time, yeah. And the kinks, [01:47:05] yeah. I love the kinks so much. They’re so good.

Ashley King: You put me on to them. The kinks. [01:47:10] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about if you had nothing like. No, no no work, no expectation. You had half a day to yourself. What would [01:47:15] you do?

Sophie Lovett: I’d probably download Candy crush.

Payman Langroudi: Do you like it?

Sophie Lovett: No. [01:47:20] I really have to avoid having games on my phone. I just think. [01:47:25]

Payman Langroudi: You get addicted.

Sophie Lovett: Oh, yeah, they are, but they are designed to do that. You know, I think a lot of people would probably [01:47:30] think that and not say it, but, I mean, I love a cryptic crossword. I’m such a loser. So [01:47:35] either give me a cryptic crossword or Candy crush. No, I don’t have Candy crush. But honestly, if I had. [01:47:40] If I had no work to do. I hate being bored. I hate being bored. But I would probably download [01:47:45] phone games. Oh.

Ashley King: That’s so funny.

Sophie Lovett: Sorry. Oh no, I wouldn’t read. I’d just waste.

Payman Langroudi: Time [01:47:50] stuck in the guilty pleasure bit. Oh. What about.

Ashley King: You? Half day off.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ashley King: Oh, [01:47:55] man.

Payman Langroudi: Go berserk. Whole day off. Honestly, like no expectation.

Ashley King: I’m. [01:48:00] My ass is in a chair on the beach. And I’m getting a tan. I’m drinking pina [01:48:05] colada.

Payman Langroudi: That’s why you’re in London.

Sophie Lovett: Oh, I thought you meant if we couldn’t do. If we had no, like, money.

Payman Langroudi: Or you’re [01:48:10] in.

Sophie Lovett: London.

Ashley King: Yeah, right. I know, I know, maybe maybe I’m [01:48:15] in Kent on the coast on a nice sunny day.

Sophie Lovett: We’re in. We’re in a small swimming pool in Dorchester. [01:48:20]

Ashley King: No, Saint Ives is great. I went there two years ago. It was beautiful. But yeah, [01:48:25] I think I would.

Sophie Lovett: Do one hand strawberry daiquiri, the other.

Ashley King: This is. That’s like Sophie’s thing. She’ll order [01:48:30] both at one time.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent.

Ashley King: She looks like a total alcoholic.

Sophie Lovett: It’s called a Miami [01:48:35] Vice. Yeah. And I do like Miami Vice, but I like to have. I feel very even. [01:48:40] When am I going to Dental forum? Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent.

Sophie Lovett: Are you.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:48:45] don’t know.

Sophie Lovett: I tell you where we are going.

Payman Langroudi: Two days after the Ministry of Health.

Sophie Lovett: We’re going to the Ministry of Sound, aren’t we, Ashley?

Ashley King: We [01:48:50] are.

Sophie Lovett: We fought for this.

Payman Langroudi: So you have to go to Dental forum. Like you have to leave. You know you can’t leave on the Sunday [01:48:55] morning. You have to.

Sophie Lovett: Leave. I’m having I’m having a day recovery from. No, we might leave [01:49:00] slightly early. I don’t think we’re going to drink at the Minimalist Ministry, are we?

Ashley King: Definitely not.

Payman Langroudi: Final [01:49:05] questions. A fantasy dinner party. Three guests, dead or alive? [01:49:10]

Ashley King: Okay, so I was thinking about this. It depends on what the vibe is like. [01:49:15] Are we. Is this like a fun dinner party? Am I trying to learn?

Payman Langroudi: If you want to have fun. [01:49:20] Have fun. Invite invite a fun guy. Okay.

Ashley King: I [01:49:25] my answer to you would be Mur Mira [01:49:30] murati. She is a. She was the CTO of OpenAI.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [01:49:35]

Ashley King: And now she runs thinking labs.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Ashley King: She’s like one of the more prominent women [01:49:40] behind the AI movement that no one knows about it. Um, [01:49:45] so I would like to.

Payman Langroudi: Wish you from Romania.

Ashley King: She’s Albanian, I think. Albanian.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I’ve [01:49:50] seen I’ve seen the profile.

Ashley King: And I keep trying to find different like podcasts and like, she just has [01:49:55] very little presence. So I would like to sit in a room with her and ask her some [01:50:00] questions. She seems like a genius. Um, the second person. So this [01:50:05] is, by the way, this dinner is like trying to learn everything that I can. Dinner. [01:50:10] Not a fun dinner. So, Sophie, I think you’d be really bored if.

Sophie Lovett: Ashley’s, like, real. [01:50:15] So she sends me on Instagram. Have changed from being, like to, like, code. Yeah. [01:50:20] Claude hack.

Ashley King: This is my toxic productivity. Taking [01:50:25] a fun exercise and turning it into. Anyway, um, the next person who [01:50:30] I would like to learn. Paul Graham um, and then Nikola [01:50:35] Tesla.

Payman Langroudi: Nikola Tesla. Yeah. Yeah. Well done.

Ashley King: Um, I feel like there’s a lot that [01:50:40] he discovered, especially around free energy and all these [01:50:45] scientists that have been dying. There’s like 12 different scientists who are studying something adjacent to what he.

Payman Langroudi: Said, something [01:50:50] about propulsion.

Ashley King: And like anti-gravity. And I think all of it goes back to the free energy. [01:50:55] And so I’m very fascinated. That’s I have ADHD, so I get like very. Did you study in uni, public [01:51:00] health and biology? Oh, really? Yeah. So yep. That’s who it would be a [01:51:05] very interesting. Everyone would be way smarter than me. But that’s how you learn.

Sophie Lovett: Who [01:51:10] do I have? I’m not going to go Joe Lovitz route and say my partner. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:51:15] don’t allow I don’t allow that.

Sophie Lovett: In my partner.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t allow that answer. I never allow that.

Sophie Lovett: She’s Cuban though, [01:51:20] so, you know, so I would probably have, oh my gosh, I’m such a loser. But I just love Rory [01:51:25] Stewart So much Rory Love Rory Stewart so much. Do you know who I [01:51:30] would love to hear from? Whether it’s in her voice or her [01:51:35] fake voice is, I want to know what Elizabeth Holmes actually thinks. I [01:51:40] wouldn’t have that.

Ashley King: Sophie has like a weird she’s like, weirdly, she’s even wearing the black shirt [01:51:45] like like black turtleneck.

Sophie Lovett: I was talking today about like, how I can change my voice. Um, I [01:51:50] just think like, once you go lower, then you become more successful.

Ashley King: So if Sophie starts a [01:51:55] company after this, be concerned.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, if I, if I, if.

Payman Langroudi: You’re fascinated by the way she pulled the wool [01:52:00] over everyone’s eyes.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. And if like, how much she’s deluding [01:52:05] herself about what she did and didn’t know. Right.

Ashley King: Like I feel like she was actually, I think she actually believed [01:52:10] that she could do it. Like, I don’t think she went into minutes.

Sophie Lovett: Five more minutes, right? Like 5 [01:52:15] million more.

Ashley King: She was just so pathological that she believed her own lies kind of thing.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. Um, [01:52:20] I need someone funny. Um, I mean, you can come to my dinner party if [01:52:25] you want. No, no. No, man. Um, Nick garrison from Pearl. [01:52:30] So funny.

Ashley King: Also super smart.

Sophie Lovett: So [01:52:35] smart.

Ashley King: Went to Harvard. Smart guy.

Sophie Lovett: Um, no, I don’t know.

Ashley King: I think that’s a good answer. We’ll leave it at [01:52:40] Nick.

Sophie Lovett: Let’s leave it with Nick.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Sophie Lovett: Have you met Nick?

Payman Langroudi: No.

Sophie Lovett: He, like, he, um. [01:52:45] He. He’d come in in his overalls. You’d be like, oh, this room doesn’t need painting [01:52:50] today.

Ashley King: Our joke with Nick is, like, which tradesperson are you dressed as today? Yeah. [01:52:55]

Sophie Lovett: You, like, dislike.

Ashley King: Struggling artists.

Sophie Lovett: Disney.

Ashley King: Bouncers.

Sophie Lovett: And architects.

Ashley King: But [01:53:00] he actually is good style.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. And like, this guy will give you the brutal [01:53:05] truth as well. Like.

Payman Langroudi: Is he based in L.A., though?

Sophie Lovett: He’s based in LA. His ideas [01:53:10] and morals are so spot on as well. He’s he’s really trying to do a [01:53:15] lot now for the UK and um, in terms of how we can support [01:53:20] paediatric dental care as well. He’s he’s a really kind of moral smart guy.

Ashley King: He is [01:53:25] he he’s also someone who I think has really maybe [01:53:30] he’s more vocal about them, but he has contrarian beliefs compared to what I like. [01:53:35] I’ll say something that I think is a great idea. And then he’ll be like, no, you’re completely wrong. And let me [01:53:40] tell you why. And I’m like, damn, yeah, yeah, you’re kind of right, actually.

Sophie Lovett: And [01:53:45] also he’s.

Ashley King: Like, he.

Sophie Lovett: Just, he like, he kind of like [01:53:50] morally name drops as well. So he’ll just be like, oh yeah, Jen [01:53:55] and Jen and Brad or like Jen and.

Payman Langroudi: Get into ministry. Well.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, [01:54:00] he’s a good guy. Ministry. Yeah. A lot of people want to come to ministry. Tell us [01:54:05] about ministry.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, we’re gonna have so much fun.

Sophie Lovett: We’re gonna have so.

Payman Langroudi: Much, so much fun trying experimental [01:54:10] education in this new, new setting.

Sophie Lovett: Can I ask you a question?

Payman Langroudi: Sure.

Sophie Lovett: If [01:54:15] you were principal again, would you have Pearl?

Payman Langroudi: Oh, of course, I [01:54:20] was never a principal there. I never owned a practice.

Sophie Lovett: Make Payman principal again. [01:54:25] But you say. You say, of course. So definitively. [01:54:30] What makes you say that?

Payman Langroudi: The trust question. What I said about trust. It’s [01:54:35] huge. I was good at knowing what dentistry was about. I was, I enjoyed it, I enjoyed [01:54:40] being a dentist. Um, definitely. It’s about trust. Yeah. Yeah. That’s [01:54:45] the key point. Um, it’s a bit like, you know, you know that thing EMS do that. Uh, gee, [01:54:50] what’s it? Guided biofilm therapy. Yeah. On paper it sounds ridiculous. [01:54:55] Yeah, it’s a 200 £0 scaler. That’s crazy. Whereas it’s, you know, it’s the [01:55:00] regular scale is like $500. This thing’s like 20 grand. Yeah, it sounds ridiculous, [01:55:05] but every single patient goes through that thing and it makes a [01:55:10] cleaning much more comfortable. Yeah. And when you realise that the value [01:55:15] of it’s way more than 20,000.

Ashley King: Right.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s, it’s one of those things.

Sophie Lovett: So seeing past [01:55:20] the face value of something and then looking into.

Payman Langroudi: Like a no brainer.

Sophie Lovett: It isn’t a.

Payman Langroudi: Total [01:55:25] no brainer. And I didn’t even realise it was that cheap. I thought it’d be much more.

Sophie Lovett: I know, I know, when.

Ashley King: I joined, I was like, [01:55:30] that’s all we charge. But now, you know, we get pushback on price all the time. So I don’t [01:55:35] know. It depends.

Sophie Lovett: People often say, and who you are is that, like you said, is that that’s not per [01:55:40] practice. Is that per chair?

Payman Langroudi: Per chair?

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. But people do have single chair practices who pay for it. I [01:55:45] mean, and I’ve said to everybody, cancel it. If if it’s not making [01:55:50] that return and we have no cancellations, do we. It’s um.

Ashley King: Very low churn.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, [01:55:55] yeah. It’s an incredible product. We’re very lucky to be working here.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:56:00] wish my people were as enthusiastic about my stuff as.

Sophie Lovett: They love working.

Ashley King: Sometimes I feel like I’m in a cult. I’m like, am [01:56:05] I gonna realise like, ten years from now? You know, like hindsight is 2020, like.

Sophie Lovett: Send [01:56:10] us that special water, don’t they? That we have to drink?

Ashley King: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. That medicine, that pill [01:56:15] we have to take every morning. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t turn up to that final meeting at Mafia’s [01:56:20] country home.

Ashley King: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sophie Lovett: He sent us.

Ashley King: He said something about kool aid. [01:56:25] I don’t know, it was weird.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive pleasure. Thank you so much for coming. I really [01:56:30] enjoyed.

Ashley King: It. Thank you so much.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, [01:56:35] the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:56:40] Your hosts Payman [01:56:45] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki : Thanks for listening guys. If [01:56:50] you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me [01:56:55] and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to [01:57:00] say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about [01:57:05] subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get [01:57:10] some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki : And don’t forget our six star [01:57:15] rating.

 

Payman Langroudi: This podcast comes to you from enlighten. Enlighten is an advanced teeth whitening system [00:00:05] that guarantees results on every single patient. We’ve treated hundreds of thousands of patients [00:00:10] now and have a really clear understanding of what it takes to get every patient to that delighted [00:00:15] state that we want to get to. If you want to understand teeth whitening in much further detail, join [00:00:20] us for online training. Only takes an hour. Completely free. Even if you never use [00:00:25] enlighten as a whitening system, you’ll learn loads and loads about whitening, how to talk about it, [00:00:30] how to involve your teams. Join us. Enlighten online training.com.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:40] podcast where you get to go one on one with [00:00:45] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Professor Tara Renton, OBE [00:01:00] onto the podcast. Does that mean I have to call you Dame now? No.

Tara Renton: Absolutely [00:01:05] not. It was the latest I know. I can’t believe it. [00:01:10] I’ve got goosebumps even talking about it. And have you been. No [00:01:15] no no no. You get you get a letter from um the Cabinet [00:01:20] Office like in big letters on the envelope I think. Oh my God, what have I done? This was like end of November [00:01:25] or what had my husband done more importantly. And um, and you open it [00:01:30] up and it basically is three sheets as a questionnaire. You fill in if you’re accepted or not, and a bit about your [00:01:35] E and D bits and pieces. And then, um, basically the letter says, um, [00:01:40] you have to keep this secret. You’re not allowed to tell anyone. Mhm. Um, and you’re [00:01:45] sort of in a state of disbelief. Um, and I managed to keep it [00:01:50] quiet for my husband for who’s of 39 years. Um, my sort of, my, [00:01:55] my, my biggest supporter, my silent weapon. I like to call him. Um, no, [00:02:00] no, actually for nearly two weeks. But the person I was most desperate [00:02:05] to tell was my 87 year old mum, I bet, and I was, and I just thought, I can’t, I can’t, [00:02:10] I’m so glad I didn’t. Um, and so I told my husband, we didn’t tell anyone. And then we were at a [00:02:15] New Year’s party with friends and one of them and found out and you get [00:02:20] this little trickle of people who obviously there’s some people obviously study it every year, like in depth. And I’ve got some [00:02:25] lovely emails from people and texts. Um, and then one of my girlfriends has seen it and [00:02:30] announced it at the dinner party. So most, not all, but most of my good friends know. [00:02:35] So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And you’ve told your honour.

Tara Renton: I’ve told my mum. Yes. I think.

Payman Langroudi: She’s.

Tara Renton: I think [00:02:40] she’s inventing people to ring up and tell she’s absolutely buzzing. Bless her. So [00:02:45] she’s, she’s widowed. Um b 30, 32 years [00:02:50] this year. My father was a dentist and died at 62 on an exercise bike. So [00:02:55] um, as I mentioned, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Four generations, four generations. [00:03:00]

Tara Renton: Yeah. So, um, three guys, I make another Wolfson [00:03:05] candidate, a bit like Richard Porter and others. Um, but um, [00:03:10] yeah, my, my father was a GP. Um, he was, he did his national, he did [00:03:15] his guy’s dentistry and then he did, um, LDS and then he did national service. Um, [00:03:20] and that’s how he met my mother. He was out in Cyprus during the Suez crisis. And my mother’s father was a, in [00:03:25] the army. So they met and married um there and then my grandfather was a dentist, [00:03:30] a private dentist in Golders Green. So he did dentistry with um, with um, uh, [00:03:35] basically, um, what do you call it now? Just just. [00:03:40]

Payman Langroudi: Operated.

Tara Renton: Yes. Well yes, it was, there was a trundle his front room in his house at number [00:03:45] 11, North End Road. If anyone was, was his surgery, they had that distinct smell and we used [00:03:50] to go and visit them. Um he was just up the road from the um the the the palladium [00:03:55] golden screen palladium. So he had always his, his, uh, his waiting room, which was [00:04:00] doubled up as a dining room at the weekends, a big fish tank always people like Sid James [00:04:05] and Hattie Jakes, all the big names were often sitting [00:04:10] in the waiting room.

Payman Langroudi: And your great grandfather.

Tara Renton: My great grandfather’s a bit more of a leap because [00:04:15] he did. He qualified in surgery in 191887 at [00:04:20] Barts, and he, um, went into the Indian [00:04:25] Army Medical Corps, and he, I think he did 3 or 4 tours there. So he [00:04:30] was there for a long time and a bit of a naughty boy. So he, um, he, um, [00:04:35] my grandmother, my great grandmother left him, came back with my grandfather [00:04:40] and his brother, who’s brother actually ended up being the royal vet Proby Cautley. And [00:04:45] um, and, uh, he retired, came back to England. And [00:04:50] in those days before the dental Act, he could, he decided to do dentistry, and I always thought that was a bit of an [00:04:55] odd choice. But it turns out, thanks to when I did a bit of research for courtly Dental dynasty for [00:05:00] the British Historical Society. He was one of six officers, [00:05:05] medical officers that were invited back to do a special course at Guy’s Hospital and [00:05:10] doing dental extractions, because obviously we all know with the Napoleonic saying, can’t bite, can’t [00:05:15] fight, we know the repercussions in the army of dental unfitness. And in [00:05:20] that in that era, I mean, it was after the Boer War where more people, as many people, [00:05:25] died of toothache as they did of being shot. Yeah. Apparently, um, in [00:05:30] those days it was a real problem. That’s what made made, rendered servicemen just unfit. So they basically [00:05:35] thought, well, we’ll bring six surgeons, medical officers back, teach them how to do dental extractions. [00:05:40] And that was the beginning of the Army Dental Corps. That’s really interesting. So that obviously swayed [00:05:45] his choice. He thought he’d retire in Norfolk and become a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So I heard a statistic that 3,040% [00:05:50] of the of the military, the front line were [00:05:55] debilitated by dental pain, you know, back then.

Tara Renton: I’m not surprised.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so interesting.

Tara Renton: It is [00:06:00] fascinating. We live in today. I mean, we think 30% of, you know, the kids.

Payman Langroudi: Gas. [00:06:05]

Tara Renton: Gas. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s the most common reason for kids under 12 to be [00:06:10] admitted to hospital is, is dental caries. It’s just, it’s, [00:06:15] it is shocking. And I, if you ask me about bugbears, that’s one of my bugbears. And [00:06:20] I know you’ve touched.

Payman Langroudi: On isn’t that like societal in the UK and that there [00:06:25] is a neglected bottom 10% in the UK or whatever percentage it is, but the. [00:06:30] And by neglected, I don’t necessarily only mean by the the the healthcare [00:06:35] system. It’s almost like the bottom 10% of everything in the UK has just been [00:06:40] let go. Everything. You know, you can have the best universities and you [00:06:45] can have the worst. You can have the best schools and the in the world and some of [00:06:50] the worst, the best restaurants in the world.

Tara Renton: And some of the words. I’ve never thought about it in percentages wise. [00:06:55] I mean, all these amazing initiatives, you know, Dental smile in Scotland [00:07:00] where they they get kids to read and brush their teeth with teddies and try and [00:07:05] encourage the parents to read with the kids and brush their teeth. I mean, there’s some fantastic incentives and you and [00:07:10] also increasingly now in nurseries, you know, I’ve got my first ever grandchild and [00:07:15] they’re talking about nurseries and we’re talking, they get breakfast and they get their teeth brushed.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s [00:07:20] how does it feel to become a grandmother?

Tara Renton: Oh my God, I never saw it. So surreal. 5th of December last year. [00:07:25]

Payman Langroudi: Is it surreal?

Tara Renton: It’s amazing. It’s amazing. And I’m not the most maternal person. [00:07:30] I, um, I never thought I’d have kids. I honestly didn’t all be married. No, I never did. [00:07:35] Never did. No. So all happy circumstance. I’ve got three lovely kids, and our eldest [00:07:40] son Tim’s had little sac and we were babysitting him yesterday. It’s. You can’t describe [00:07:45] it. I don’t think you just can’t describe it. It’s incredibly special and also slightly [00:07:50] anxiety producing as well. You think this world and what we’re talking about and yeah, [00:07:55] it’s.

Payman Langroudi: So did you feel the weight of becoming a dentist when [00:08:00] you were deciding this stuff? Because did you know about the three generations before you?

Tara Renton: I didn’t know, [00:08:05] no, I knew obviously my grandpa and obviously my father, but I didn’t know. So it’s a really good question. [00:08:10] Payman. Because actually, um, I thought perhaps in retrospect, [00:08:15] but actually at the time, I remember my dad being stressed all the time and [00:08:20] he loved his work. He loved his patients. He loved the NHS. It took me a while [00:08:25] to figure out at his funeral, actually, he was 17 when the NHS was invented. He was a massive [00:08:30] advocate of never doing private work, always doing NHS dentistry, and a lot of your [00:08:35] podcast people talk about the amount of admin work you do in general practice. My father was there till [00:08:40] midnight, 1:00 every night, every morning, doing all his old brown cards.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Tara Renton: Yeah. [00:08:45] I mean, they saw so many patients. He had a dual surgery, he’d numb one patient up. [00:08:50] And then, you know, I mean, the volume of.

Payman Langroudi: And was it the traditional setup where you lived above [00:08:55] the.

Tara Renton: No, no, no separate practice. No. We lived about a mile up the road.

Payman Langroudi: Where where was.

Tara Renton: I? [00:09:00] Uh, Taunton, Somerset.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, a lovely place.

Tara Renton: It’s still a still a big practice. Now Bupa practice number [00:09:05] one. Staplegrove road. Yard house. So, um, so I grew up with my dad, and I could never [00:09:10] figure out he loved his work so much. And he was very, very dedicated. I could never understand what [00:09:15] it was. And it was sort of penny dropped, really. He never relaxed. He only ever took like two weeks holiday in [00:09:20] the summer. Um, and it was essentially at least 1 or 2 of his [00:09:25] partners just stressed him out. He hated taking time away from the practice because he’d come back and [00:09:30] something had been done or. Mhm. Um, and that was his big stress or he wasn’t probably the most [00:09:35] business oriented man either, which is I’ve inherited that. So I understood [00:09:40] that my. Yeah, I, I felt no pressure at all because actually when I [00:09:45] told him I could only do maths, I was pretty dyslexic at school, never diagnosed. I failed [00:09:50] my English O-level. Um. I struggled reading probably up until I got to university. Still, I struggled [00:09:55] then um and uh, but could do maths and physics. I got into girls grammar school, [00:10:00] you know, worked incredibly hard. Um, loved the sciency stuff. And I remember [00:10:05] thinking, what can I do with sciences? And I could do medicine, possibly do veterinary. [00:10:10] Um, in those days, probably still the same at some girls schools. I was offered nursing [00:10:15] or teaching. I was my mum was very ambitious for me. She never had a career, so she wanted me [00:10:20] to be independent and I did too. Um, and I remember thinking I kept coming back [00:10:25] to dentistry because I love art, I love using my hands. I love making things. I love using my brain. [00:10:30] I just thought, actually, I can travel, I can earn good money. I can work part time. What, [00:10:35] what a better job is there, you know, and, um.

Payman Langroudi: Back then was the percentage of women, much less. [00:10:40]

Tara Renton: Uh, well, it was my year at guy’s when I went to guy’s at 1979, was [00:10:45] the first year they had 50% girl students, so the movement had started. [00:10:50]

Payman Langroudi: 79. The year we got to Britain.

Tara Renton: Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Winter of discontent.

Tara Renton: Yes. [00:10:55]

Payman Langroudi: It was a tough time.

Tara Renton: It was.

Payman Langroudi: Tough. We were coming from Iran, which was like. It [00:11:00] felt like, I don’t know, whatever Dubai must feel like right now or something. Yeah. And we got here and it was dark [00:11:05] and it was raining and there was rubbish piled up because they hadn’t collected the rubbish. [00:11:10]

Tara Renton: All the strikes.

Payman Langroudi: Everyone was on strike.

Tara Renton: Yeah. And I thought such different times.

Payman Langroudi: And they [00:11:15] built it to us. You know, we were kids. Right. They built it to us as we’re going to England. It’s going to be great. I [00:11:20] was like, what happened here?

Tara Renton: Whereabouts in Iran did you come from?

Payman Langroudi: My, [00:11:25] we’re from the north. But. But we were living in Tehran. Right. Um, and we were very [00:11:30] lucky to get out in time. My dad had a few English people working for him. And when the UK embassy [00:11:35] told them, get out, we got out.

Tara Renton: So.

Payman Langroudi: So many people [00:11:40] didn’t manage to get out in time.

Tara Renton: You know, it’s a story that’s not told enough, I think. My husband was involved [00:11:45] with BP in Iran.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Tara Renton: And all through that transition, actually, it’s very interesting. [00:11:50] And I was very lucky. I got invited to lecture there about eight years ago and we went.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Tara Renton: It’s the most [00:11:55] beautiful country and lovely people. So sad. What’s happening? Yeah. [00:12:00] You must have friends and relatives. I’m so sorry.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah, yeah. I mean, and, you know, they even managed [00:12:05] to block Starlink now.

Tara Renton: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: It’s you can’t even, you know, my [00:12:10] uncle, we’ve only spoken to him once in the last three weeks, and [00:12:15] he was too scared to say anything. Um, he just kept on saying I’m okay, [00:12:20] I’m okay. But he wouldn’t talk about the situation because, you know, [00:12:25] this sort of 1984 thing that’s happening across all countries. Right. Yeah. [00:12:30] Um, it’s it’s a weird thing. I remember reading that book thinking it was, [00:12:35] it was a warning about communism or something. And I think it was right. That’s Sorry. And [00:12:40] thinking like, that’s, that’s, that’s a period in the past rather than that’s a period in the future. But [00:12:45] you feel like with data and AI and all of that, we [00:12:50] are merging with the machines. It’s one of those crazy things that there’s no getting in the way [00:12:55] of it now, because billions and billions are being thrown at it. Yeah. So those people aren’t going to stop? [00:13:00]

Tara Renton: No.

Payman Langroudi: Do you have any thoughts about my my, my daughter was saying she wants to [00:13:05] be a dentist.

Tara Renton: Well, you see, when I, when I came back from school, having had this really [00:13:10] awful session with a careers advisor, loosely termed, I remember saying to dad, [00:13:15] you know, I really wouldn’t mind doing dentistry. And he went absolutely over my dead body.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [00:13:20]

Tara Renton: And I said, but you love your work. He said, I love the work, but I don’t like the business. [00:13:25] And I find it very you know, I never said stressful. That was not one of [00:13:30] his vocabularies. But he just said, I don’t want you to do dentistry. So in the end, um, [00:13:35] I he was, he was both my parents were very sporty and played lots of hockey. We used to watch them [00:13:40] play hockey at the weekends and we. We all got shoved out to do sport as well, so we weren’t under their feet. And [00:13:45] um, he said he, he sort of capitulated and said, well, okay, okay. [00:13:50] And he said, do medicine or do, do veterinary. And, and I just said, well, I don’t really know [00:13:55] what they do. So in the end, he said, well, I’ll tell you what, um, I’ve asked my veterinary veteran [00:14:00] hockey team and I think there was a vet, there was a medic, there was a psychiatrist, there [00:14:05] was a solicitor, a barrister, an accountant. Um, what else was there. Oh [00:14:10] there was a manager of a, of a hardware store. Anyway, he said um if [00:14:15] you go and do work experience with all of those and come back and say you still want [00:14:20] to do dentistry, he wouldn’t have me in the in the surgery, he, I had to go and work with one of his partners.

Tara Renton: Uh, [00:14:25] then we’ll have a conversation. So I did, I dutifully did, I lasted probably [00:14:30] 15 minutes at the vets, the first little fluffy creature that I was going to be put down. That was it. I was out of there. [00:14:35] Um, I remember thinking with the GP and these are the days where you [00:14:40] couldn’t have someone sitting in there or you could with patient’s consent. But, and I remember thinking, God, [00:14:45] these, these blokes are stuck in a small room with mad people all day. And arguably that’s [00:14:50] what I’ve ended up doing. But, you know, and, and I had no concept of specialisation [00:14:55] or what possible things there were in the future. But I came away from that thinking, [00:15:00] I definitely don’t want to do medicine. I definitely don’t want to do veterinary. I definitely don’t [00:15:05] want to do accounting. Um, and, uh, and, and I had [00:15:10] a conversation with dad and he said, well, okay, um, then then [00:15:15] go for it. But he, you know, he did say caveat. You’re like me, young lady. You don’t have [00:15:20] any business acumen. So be very careful.

Payman Langroudi: You know, you listen as an aside, [00:15:25] let’s talk about that because I know it’s a tough business. It is a tough business. You’re breaking your [00:15:30] back. You’re in it rather than on it. At the same time though, the [00:15:35] economics of it work out that you don’t have to be Gordon Gekko to make [00:15:40] some money as a dentist. You’ve just got to be good to your patients. Good to your staff. Yeah. [00:15:45] Obviously, the basics of any like a corner shop has to pay its taxes and [00:15:50] and its rates and all that. But but you know what I mean. As a business, I wouldn’t call it a difficult [00:15:55] business. Much easier business than the one we’re in. Yeah. Yeah. This business overnight could [00:16:00] could, could be worth nothing. Yeah. You know, based on some global competitor. Yeah. [00:16:05] Whereas if you want to practice in Surrey and you’re nice to your people and nice to your. It’s [00:16:10] not a bad business.

Tara Renton: No, but still, essentially, I think you have to be comfortable with running [00:16:15] a business, comfortable putting your face out there, promoting yourself, asking [00:16:20] for money. None of those things were something that I.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t come.

Tara Renton: Naturally. No. And certainly [00:16:25] didn’t come naturally to my father.

Payman Langroudi: You go. You go from Taunton to the big city. [00:16:30]

Tara Renton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Firstly, how were you with that? I mean, that must have been super exciting. [00:16:35]

Tara Renton: I was super excited. I was I got in, I was a bit younger, so I was just [00:16:40] 17 and I was ready. My grandma and I’d been the odd visit to my grandpa [00:16:45] and he’d taken me to Hamleys and a couple of. He introduced me to ballet, which was one of my passions. Oh, nice. [00:16:50] Um, so I sort of, I definitely, definitely was ready to go to a big city. I got into [00:16:55] several places. I got into Bristol and Manchester. Um. Um, [00:17:00] but actually I thought London was for me for four and a half, five years.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:17:05] I didn’t manage to do the introduction properly yet. But you’re right now you’re a world leader in [00:17:10] orofacial pain. Um, tell me just just make me, make me feel better and [00:17:15] tell me that you weren’t always that sort of super ambitious, super focussed person? [00:17:20] No. So as a student, you would just.

Tara Renton: I worked hard, I think because of my [00:17:25] dyslexia. I, I, I, it’s quite interesting before [00:17:30] all these types of learning. All my O-levels. My bedroom wall was covered in [00:17:35] coloured bits of paper.

Payman Langroudi: So obviously your strategy for getting around.

Tara Renton: That’s how I could remember things [00:17:40] and how I could learn things. And I got, you know, I failed my I mentioned I failed my English O-level, but luckily it was a girls [00:17:45] grammar school. So we did all those basic five a year early. So I had another chance [00:17:50] to bite at the cherry I managed to pass it with. But you know, I was getting A’s and I was in top sets [00:17:55] for everything, but asked me to read out loud in an English class. I just wanted to die. [00:18:00] And I, you know, I had a tough time for some of the, some of the teachers as well who just think [00:18:05] thought I was just not trying just so I had this, um, ethos. And obviously, [00:18:10] as I said, my mum was quite ambitious for me, definitely to work very hard [00:18:15] and I did work hard. And I remember my first day at 17 at Guy’s Hospital in a biochemistry [00:18:20] lecture and I thought, I have arrived, I love this, I could [00:18:25] swear, love this. Um, I just knew I was in the right place. I [00:18:30] loved all the dissection. I loved that smell of formula. And I love the Gordon Museum. I love [00:18:35] all of that. That was just my you know, and I, I’m very, very [00:18:40] curious, you know, on all fronts.

Payman Langroudi: I’m horrified by dissection.

Tara Renton: I [00:18:45] just thought we were so honoured.

Payman Langroudi: Those people, of course.

Tara Renton: You know, I saw it from that perspective [00:18:50] and I just thought it was just so interesting. And you know, every which way did [00:18:55] different angles. I, I absolutely loved it. I was flying the first two years. Um, [00:19:00] did you party? Yes, yes. I had a lovely boyfriend at the time. [00:19:05] Very healthy social life, didn’t do much dancing, didn’t do much sport, had a [00:19:10] bike. So I did a bit of cycling, which I still do now. Very passionate about that. But um, no, no, I [00:19:15] had a really, really good time. Lots, lots of drinking.

Payman Langroudi: And what would you say then if we’re talking, [00:19:20] what was the sort of inflection point to go from that to? You’ve [00:19:25] put out 250 papers now.

Tara Renton: There wasn’t Payman.

Payman Langroudi: There was [00:19:30] no there must have been an inflection that you said, I want to be the best at something or I want to specialise. [00:19:35] I mean, not what tiny proportion.

Tara Renton: Specialise when I, when I walked out of, I got the [00:19:40] final year prize, I came second in the year, but that’s because I was loving [00:19:45] what I was doing and I worked hard. It wasn’t out of some focus of ambition. I [00:19:50] definitely, definitely knew I did.

Payman Langroudi: Not class yourself as an ambitious person.

Tara Renton: No.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [00:19:55]

Tara Renton: No.

Payman Langroudi: I love that.

Tara Renton: No. It’s serendipity. Honestly, I’ve [00:20:00] I’ve landed in a corner of my life in an area that I absolutely love. [00:20:05] I really enjoy the people I work with. I love still seeing the patients, [00:20:10] um, part. Retiring and moving away from surgeries made me realise how much I missed that. [00:20:15] Mhm. I don’t miss the admin. I don’t miss all the hassle that goes with the NHS. [00:20:20] Now. It’s so difficult to do things. So difficult to change things. Impossible [00:20:25] to be innovative. But no, I would not say I was an [00:20:30] ambitious person. I would always do. I always do my best on everything. And as I say with [00:20:35] that background, I just was doing in an area that I love. I remember qualifying in, [00:20:40] in dentistry, thinking, I’m never, ever going to come back and have to do any academic work ever again. Seriously. [00:20:45]

Payman Langroudi: How funny.

Tara Renton: But then I knew I didn’t want to do peds because it was just [00:20:50] too stressful working on children and their family. I knew I didn’t orthodontics.

Payman Langroudi: Similar [00:20:55] issues.

Tara Renton: And perio weren’t for me. And I remember Richard [00:21:00] Haskell was one of the consultants, an oral medic consultant, absolutely Armenian. [00:21:05] And he was a genius. He was intellectually brilliant. I remember him doing a giant [00:21:10] diagnosing giant cell arteritis and doing like a giant temporal artery biopsy, [00:21:15] just like that, you know, just and I sort of thought that’s the sort of person I would [00:21:20] really like. I’d like to be that good. I never thought I would would be anything like it. But, um, those [00:21:25] are the people that really inspired me.

Payman Langroudi: And did you, you must have had crisp and.

Tara Renton: Crisp [00:21:30] and Scully I love but never taught me. I had Roy Roy Castle, Roy Coulson, who was [00:21:35] an inspirational, inspirational Frank Ashley that comes later. [00:21:40] He was the one that pushed me to do a PhD. In the end, he was really.

Payman Langroudi: Edwina.

Tara Renton: Kidd. Edwina Kidd I [00:21:45] saw recently at the Dental day.

Payman Langroudi: Was she when you were.

Tara Renton: She was restorative. She was like a young lecturer and restorative. [00:21:50] Really. Richard Palmer. Oh, he was lovely. He’s still a good friend. He was a great mentor, actually, [00:21:55] as a student. Really lovely man.

Payman Langroudi: Have you put implants in as well? Yeah.

Tara Renton: Did implants. [00:22:00] This is how old I am. I think I put some of the first ever branemark and cor [00:22:05] vent and imz implants in, in my max fac training in Melbourne. So we’re.

Payman Langroudi: Going.

Tara Renton: Um, [00:22:10] when’s that 1987, 88, 89.

Payman Langroudi: So how long did it take [00:22:15] between qualifying and doing max max training. Was it pretty.

Tara Renton: Quick. Not, not it [00:22:20] was not an intentional thing. Nothing’s been intentional. And when a lot of the kids come up to me and say, oh, can [00:22:25] I have some career advice? I’m saying you’re asking the wrong person about career advice. My, my, you know, I [00:22:30] sort of focus down. I wanted to do a combination of, of medicine and surgery. [00:22:35] And the only options then were max fac. So basically, like a lot of people, you [00:22:40] know, the rich and porters of the world and other people, you think, actually, I’d like to get my first part [00:22:45] fellowship and I’d like I didn’t got an show with my, um, uh, [00:22:50] with Don Gibb, the Max fac surgeon who was the most of them were singly qualified or [00:22:55] singly qualified. Don Gibb um, and I remember did my first essay [00:23:00] and I thought, no, I really quite like this, you know, the, the casualty. And I’ve got some great stories about [00:23:05] what happened in casual and bits and pieces. And I really, I guess I just like being stretched [00:23:10] and in an area that I love and it just the potential just keeps.

Payman Langroudi: Going, going.

Tara Renton: And, [00:23:15] um, and then with Don Gibb’s help, I suspect I got shortlisted [00:23:20] for a Esho at Torbay Hospital and I was a massively keen windsurfer at the time. [00:23:25] So I applied for all the jobs along the South coast and I got the job at Torbay [00:23:30] and I was there for a year as an SHO. Stayed on for another year as a SHO forward slash registrar. [00:23:35] Hugh Brock he used to rock up to work either on a horse or on a motorbike. [00:23:40] He was a real character, had handlebar moustaches and a handlebar moustache and alongside [00:23:45] bands. He was a genius of a man and sadly died of bowel cancer far too young. Another [00:23:50] inspiration in my life. And um, I loved that work that and again, [00:23:55] work hard, play hard. Great doctors, great, great people. A lot of people just stayed [00:24:00] in Torbay. I don’t blame them. Um, and that was amazing.

Payman Langroudi: The work.

Tara Renton: It was, it [00:24:05] was, it was.

Payman Langroudi: Hard. The whole thing.

Tara Renton: Yeah. 1 in 2 on call, I think I did. Oh I did nine 1 [00:24:10] in 8 years, 1 in 2 on call. You add it all up. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The old NHS. [00:24:15]

Tara Renton: The good old days. Yeah. 72 hours on. Yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But you loved [00:24:20] it. Oh, I loved it. So then you decide to do Max factor training?

Tara Renton: Well, no, because I had [00:24:25] with my family guys, I was offered to do free medicine. And I remember thinking, [00:24:30] going back to that girl who did the work experience with her dad’s veteran hockey team, I don’t [00:24:35] want to do medicine. What is it going to change me? You know, surely I can do what I want to do without having [00:24:40] to spend another five years of my life doing. I don’t want to do that. Um, what I hadn’t realised [00:24:45] is obviously that time expired senior registrars were just beginning to happen. So [00:24:50] there’s still a chance you could get through single qualified. But actually I just on [00:24:55] principle I was not going to do that. So I thought I did really just under three years [00:25:00] at Torbay Hospital. I thought right, I need some time out. I’m not sure if I want [00:25:05] to use my ovaries or not. I need time out just to think about what I want to do. So I got a job as a ski rep with Inghams, [00:25:10] and in the first two weeks I met my husband who helped to put my skis on the [00:25:15] back of the bus and he was working in Australia, so I quit that job, went back, got a job [00:25:20] in practice in Bournemouth with my windsurfer, Barry Nibbs, a real character, recently retired [00:25:25] and did eight months in practice whilst I waited for my migrant visa to come through. And we got [00:25:30] married and I followed my husband out to Australia. So we knew each other for two weeks.

Payman Langroudi: Whirlwind, [00:25:35] but especially for someone who decided not to. Wanting not to get married and have kids.

Tara Renton: I [00:25:40] was telling my brother the night before I met Tony, I’m never going to get married. I [00:25:45] have a certain type if I do, if the biological clocks. The clock [00:25:50] is ticking. I’ll just go to a Danish, Asperger’s or sperm [00:25:55] bank pick and, you know, like the Scandinavians [00:26:00] and all. Yeah, and the rest is history. The perfect man [00:26:05] turned up the next day. Yeah. I knew he was the one. I told my mum. I went back for Christmas. My [00:26:10] mum and I said to mum, I think I’ve met the man I’m going to marry. She said, oh, don’t be so stupid. [00:26:15] To finish the washing up and, uh, and yeah. And then two weeks, a week [00:26:20] later, he proposed, went off to Australia and I went out for a holiday to meet [00:26:25] him, but he was posted in Papua New Guinea for most of that time, which was disastrous. Um, but [00:26:30] yeah, got married in August. That was 39 years ago.

Payman Langroudi: Were you not considering staying in Australia [00:26:35] after that stint?

Tara Renton: I never wanted to go to Australia. I went I followed Tony to Australia, but the the reason I’m telling [00:26:40] that story is in order to get my migrant visa, I had to get jobs in practice. So [00:26:45] I got jobs in practice. I registered with Victoria State Dental those days it wasn’t federal [00:26:50] Dental board, it was um state. Um, so I ticked all the boxes to try [00:26:55] and maximise getting my migrant visa. And that included getting offered jobs in, in practice. [00:27:00] So I was working three days in dental practice, two days a week as a volunteer at the National [00:27:05] Art Museum. That’s my passion is. And I just thought, actually that’s what I was going to do. I was going to [00:27:10] finally do art. You know, my my dad had Pooh poohed that right at the start. Um, and [00:27:15] I remember Carlo Roberts, who’s a South African, uh, practice, [00:27:20] uh, principal real character took me on two days a week in lovely Beaumaris in Melbourne. [00:27:25] And, um, I’d finished a day’s work and um, he [00:27:30] said to me, oh, Tara, I’m supposed to be giving this tutorial tomorrow night. I just can’t be bothered, [00:27:35] you know, more about you’ve done more oral surgery and wisdom teeth. Why don’t you give the tutorial [00:27:40] about wisdom teeth? So I thought it’s fair enough. He’s done lots of favours. I can do that.

Tara Renton: And [00:27:45] there was about it was for the Royal Australasian College of Dental Surgery. So the RA [00:27:50] CDs, which is the RCS equivalent here. And um, [00:27:55] there was about 12 young mainly blokes, um sort of students, not [00:28:00] post-grad. No, they’re postgrads. And um I gave my tutorial [00:28:05] and there was a bloke sitting at the back and then I thought very old bloke sitting at the back and [00:28:10] he didn’t introduce himself, he just disappeared off. And then two weeks later, I got this telephone call [00:28:15] at work saying, um, is that Tara Renton? I took all my married name because I used to be Tara [00:28:20] Courtly. And, um, and I said yes. And he said, oh, it’s a professor Peter Reid here. I run [00:28:25] the Oral medicine, Oral pathology and Oral maxillofacial program at Melbourne Hospital, [00:28:30] Melbourne University. Um, I listened to your I was very impressed [00:28:35] by your talk you gave the other day, and I’m sorry I didn’t introduce myself. I had to rush off. He said, I just wanted [00:28:40] to ask you, um, this was November, [00:28:45] late October, early November. He said, um, we have a very good, um, [00:28:50] maxfax maxillofacial program, which is four and a half to five years. [00:28:55] And we have two candidates a year and one of the candidates just dropped out and [00:29:00] it starts in January. So I remember thinking, oh my.

Payman Langroudi: God. [00:29:05]

Tara Renton: And I thought, and I remember thinking, I don’t want to do max work. And what it was is [00:29:10] max FAC program very much like the American model. So basically integrates medical studies. You [00:29:15] don’t end up you don’t walk away with an M.D. but and it’s very orthognathic [00:29:20] lots of trauma, lots of dental alveolar, a smattering of head and neck, [00:29:25] bit of plastics. So it was very much the American model. And of course, I didn’t have to go and do five [00:29:30] years of medicine. And I thought, actually, I’m quite tempted by this. But then I didn’t [00:29:35] know how long we were going to be in Australia for because Tony was on a temporary visa with BP. So the reality was two, [00:29:40] two and a half years max. So I went back and had a chat with my long suffering husband [00:29:45] and just said, actually, I’m really quite tempted by this. He said, well, look, if you want to do it, do it. But [00:29:50] you know, I don’t think he realised how what hard work it was going to be. And it was hard work, but [00:29:55] incredible training. So that’s how I ended up with a max fac qualification. But then when [00:30:00] I came back to England five years later, pregnant with my firstborn unintentionally. [00:30:05] And, um, yeah, for those girls in the audience on the pill and, [00:30:10] um. And couldn’t get a job. Why so [00:30:15] xenophobic about foreign qualifications? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So interesting, isn’t it?

Tara Renton: Couldn’t [00:30:20] get a job. Um, so I managed to scrape in through the back door back at guy’s with Pat [00:30:25] O’Driscoll, and I did a locum SPR for him in max vac. I did that till [00:30:30] I dropped my first born, Tim. Um, and that’s really good that I did that in a way, because [00:30:35] it just got my foot back in the door and people remembering who I was. And, and so [00:30:40] when I had sort of six months just looking after Tim, I was hoping to get back to work part time, [00:30:45] no part time jobs in oral surgery didn’t exist. It was just max vac, [00:30:50] um, oral medicine. And you needed medicine to do that as well. So what I did is I put my [00:30:55] CV in the post to three main teaching hospitals in London and heard back from two [00:31:00] of them. And one of them was Mark McGurk. Professor Mark McGurk, who basically said, [00:31:05] look, I’m prepared to take a risk. And he did. I had an interview with him. To my chagrin, [00:31:10] I managed to get pregnant with my second son after being offered the job before starting it. Wow. Um. [00:31:15] And, uh, but anyway, he was, he was great. So three days a week, he was doing research [00:31:20] for the Royal College of Surgeons, sort of some research funding he had. And it was basically three, [00:31:25] it was three days. I did three, um, uh, 3GA [00:31:30] third molar lists and three clinics. And I did that for ten [00:31:35] years.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Tara Renton: Um.

Payman Langroudi: And were you at this point now thinking of research [00:31:40] as well?

Tara Renton: Well, because it was the research, because it was already research. Yeah, I was, [00:31:45] I was doing it and I used to bump into Frank Ashley. I mean, I then had two young [00:31:50] boys, um, and, uh, and I remember thinking, actually, this is great part [00:31:55] time ticks all the boxes. Loving the research side of it. Um, really [00:32:00] loving the operating sort of ticking all the boxes and sort of five, five years in and then just [00:32:05] just about to have my daughter. And I remember thinking, what’s the career prospects here? There was none. So [00:32:10] I was I had been made an associate specialist. Um, definitely [00:32:15] wasn’t going to do medicine. Um, because I didn’t think how that would change my practice and it wouldn’t [00:32:20] have done.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: And, um, sort of got started thinking and I was thinking, [00:32:25] you know, what to do. And every time I was late, often late doing my, you know, finishing [00:32:30] off everything, I’d get in the lift at guy’s. And one of the downsides of that of the [00:32:35] guy’s hospital on the, you know, the Dental hospital on different floors is you rarely interact with [00:32:40] people, different specialities. But one of the upsides is that blooming lifts, because you’re waiting for them [00:32:45] for ages and you’re in them for ages. And I used to see Frank Ashley a lot, who was then Dean, and he used to say [00:32:50] to me, Tara, you should be doing a PhD. The research you’re doing is really good. And I said, look, [00:32:55] for God’s sake, I’ve got two young kids. I’ve got another one on the way. I can’t do a [00:33:00] PhD. And he said, yes, you can. So I spoke to Mark about it and he was very, [00:33:05] very supportive. Something that got me going as well as [00:33:10] that, they advertised for a bombs trainee and I didn’t get it and I was really upset about [00:33:15] that. Um, so I thought actually the only option is to have a career is to do a [00:33:20] PhD. And that would give me the options to follow through with academic oral [00:33:25] surgery. So that was the academic omfs as it was called. So that was my only option. And so [00:33:30] call me ambitious, I don’t know, I just I knew that what I was doing was not enough. [00:33:35] Um, it ticked a lot of boxes. Um, but [00:33:40] I wanted more, I wanted to do more. And I guess I did want [00:33:45] some recognition for it. Looking back, I guess I did that I wasn’t happy just to sit doing [00:33:50] all that work. Um, as an associate specialist.

Payman Langroudi: I’d like to, I’d like to delve [00:33:55] into the juggle of being, you know, that person with three children, [00:34:00] you know, the, in that in that era as well. Um, [00:34:05] how you pulled that off. But I’m even more interested in the notion of the [00:34:10] recognition and the, you know, the driver [00:34:15] for doing things. I was, I was funny, I was talking to my wife about it that [00:34:20] let’s say we sell enlightened for a stupid amount of money, like $1 billion. It’s, [00:34:25] it’s not worth anything near that. I was saying to her then then we’d be going [00:34:30] walking, trying to get a coffee like we are right now. Yeah. Having done that. But [00:34:35] it’d still be me and you going to try and get this coffee and. But there’d [00:34:40] be something in the back of your head that you feel like you achieved something or some something like that. [00:34:45] Yeah. But what’s, where’s the deficit that [00:34:50] wants me to feel that feeling? And of course, there’s, there’s, you know, whether you want to call [00:34:55] it ambition or deficit or whether these are bad words, maybe, but but, you know, like recognition, [00:35:00] is there an aspect of, you know, you have that the weight of the generations before you. [00:35:05] So you want to show that you did something.

Tara Renton: That’s not Payman that’s not my driver.

Payman Langroudi: Or is it something else? Is it is [00:35:10] it is it someone who underestimated you as a, as a woman or whatever? As a as a [00:35:15] young girl? Like, where does this come from? I’m so interested in it.

Tara Renton: It’s it’s fascinating. [00:35:20] Um, such an interesting question. I think for me, I’d [00:35:25] look at it as a different perspective, as a curious person. I think it’s the what’s next? [00:35:30] So you’ve sold your company for zillions of. Zillions of pounds. You’re walking down the road to get [00:35:35] a coffee with your lovely wife. You’re going to be thinking, what shall I do now?

Payman Langroudi: Maybe, maybe. [00:35:40]

Tara Renton: So for me, I’m flipping it. But that’s probably more where I was. [00:35:45] I had no aspirations to do more academia. I regard [00:35:50] myself as academia.

Payman Langroudi: You know how you said when you got an OBE, the first person you wanted to tell was your mum? Yeah, yeah. [00:35:55]

Tara Renton: That’s probably that’s probably it.

Payman Langroudi: There’s something there. Yeah. Why? Why was the first person you [00:36:00] want to tell your mum to sort of tell her that all her hard work was worth something?

Tara Renton: Yeah. No, [00:36:05] she was very ambitious for me and I never realised quite so much. [00:36:10] And she had a she basically never had proper schooling. She was an army child. So they were post-war [00:36:15] Germany. Then they were Malta, then Cyprus. So. And she’s a very bright, [00:36:20] bright lady, one of five Cornish family um, did all sorts of jobs [00:36:25] when I was growing up. So I grew up with a working mother. She was a PE teacher, green shield stamp lady, a model, um, [00:36:30] second hand clothes shop, uh, rental, wedding rental business. So [00:36:35] that’s interesting. Always working. She’s always finding a channel.

Payman Langroudi: Your definition of normal, [00:36:40] seeing your mum was someone who was working really hard.

Tara Renton: Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. My father, my father, we hardly [00:36:45] saw dad. Yeah. And the only time I could speak to my dad was coming downstairs at 1030 [00:36:50] at night, and he’d have his unofficial second dinner, which my mum was always. He’s always [00:36:55] on a diet and he’d have his big jar of Horlicks, and like a jam [00:37:00] and bread, and with all his dental notes, doing his dental admin. And that was the one time [00:37:05] I’d often. Often, if I’d come back from a party, you know, or come back from the pub with [00:37:10] friends, I’d sit down and chat with him. And that’s when I had my valuable time with dad.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [00:37:15] talk about the juggle.

Tara Renton: Yeah. The juggle. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about the juggle. Three kids, academic [00:37:20] career, PhD research. I mean, it’s a lot. What [00:37:25] gives in that situation? Did anything give. Do you feel like something gave.

Tara Renton: Oh, [00:37:30] definitely. Um, I don’t think you at the at the time you’re just in [00:37:35] the jungle. You’re fighting the fire. Yeah. Um, and you’re very aware of the compromises [00:37:40] that other people are making for you particularly. Um, I think there’s a, I don’t think [00:37:45] it’s just women, but you have this guilt, you know, I’m a rubbish mother. I’m a rubbish wife. Um, [00:37:50] I mean, I do talk about my husband. He really is my secret [00:37:55] weapon. He’s been so supportive. And I mean, I did a part time PhD five [00:38:00] years with three kids under five. I mean, I was it [00:38:05] was it was only like a couple of years later when Ella was like 3 or 4 and she was doing, you know, those stick pictures [00:38:10] they do at school. There was Mummy and Daddy, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Pictures. Yeah, yeah.

Tara Renton: So it was Mummy and Daddy, two [00:38:15] brothers, Cat and Ella and I had this big square black box here. [00:38:20] My laptop.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, no.

Tara Renton: Yeah. So and also, you know, [00:38:25] it’s just and I was aware I was, I was aware, I mean, I did function, I got them to school, I got [00:38:30] them to all their clubs. I was working three days a week. I didn’t have the nanny when the two days a week I wasn’t working. So I [00:38:35] was trying to be a good mum. Um, and we did lots of stuff at the weekends. I’ve [00:38:40] never been ever. My husband doesn’t encourage me to talk about work at home, so that’s [00:38:45] sort of off limits, which I think is really healthy actually. Um, and [00:38:50] it’s only since the kids have left home and we’re both retired that we’ve actually realised [00:38:55] some of the similarities we have. I would say we were completely polar opposites. But you know, we both [00:39:00] love getting things started. He, you know, he’s a bit of a businessman. He likes getting things started. [00:39:05] Has some great ideas. So we have a lot more in common than we probably realised [00:39:10] during this fire fighting period. Um, but his career came first. You [00:39:15] know, when we were BP and and I was working part time, he was working quite hard. And then, [00:39:20] um, serendipity in a way. At 52, he’s the clever, smart one.

Tara Renton: He was [00:39:25] on the full pension. He could walk away from BP and he wanted to. And we had a long chat about that. And obviously, [00:39:30] you know, he had other opportunities. He could have travelled and done gone up the chain. And but [00:39:35] we made he made that conscious decision. And at that point, that’s when I got offered [00:39:40] the job at QM. Shmuel. After doing my PhD. So I was offered a senior senior lectureship [00:39:45] at Shmuel. Um, uh, and it was full time or [00:39:50] nothing. So that was just serendipity that those phases worked in. So [00:39:55] he could be, um, he still was working. He was making much harder. I joke, having left [00:40:00] BP, we always call it the protected workshop. A lot of these corporates, you know, it’s not so much now, [00:40:05] but you know, end salary schemes, secretaries super [00:40:10] well looked after. Yeah. So he started up quite a few bits and a few companies. [00:40:15] He’s been very successful. So he was working but he was at home a lot of the [00:40:20] time still boxing, boxing a little bit. Um, but I and that we sort of basically swapped, you [00:40:25] know, um, yeah, still working very much as a partnership, but that’s probably that [00:40:30] facilitated that.

Payman Langroudi: So then the skills it takes to become [00:40:35] a leading academic specialist, I can, I can [00:40:40] take, I can, I can imagine some of them, right? You’ve got to work hard. You’ve got to be imaginative. Yeah. You’ve [00:40:45] got to think outside.

Tara Renton: The.

Payman Langroudi: Box passionate. But what about like the politicking [00:40:50] and.

Tara Renton: The power.

Payman Langroudi: Games that go on.

Tara Renton: Not very good at that. I have I [00:40:55] have literally been. I was offered the job at [00:41:00] QM and had a difficult [00:41:05] time. That was another learning experience there. I have to say I was I was very badly bullied. There [00:41:10] was an article about it in the times, I think December 24th about [00:41:15] the culture change of the misogyny, and it was really bad. So I was the only [00:41:20] single qualified person in the group in the department. And, um, it [00:41:25] was tough. It was really tough. I lost about a third of my hair. I lost my eyebrows, my eyelashes. When I look back [00:41:30] at the pictures now, I just hadn’t realised the physical. I was commuting like an [00:41:35] hour and a half, two hours a day.

Payman Langroudi: Um, each way.

Tara Renton: Each way full time. [00:41:40] It was only full time job. Um, and that’s when thing cracks became [00:41:45] really happen. And it was the first time in my life I didn’t want to go to work. I’ve always [00:41:50] loved my work. Um, always jump out of bed in the morning [00:41:55] and, you know, skip to work. It’s the first time, and I really didn’t want to go. My husband was just saying, walk. Just walk. It’s [00:42:00] not worth it. And I thought about whistle blowing. Came very close to that. Actually spoke [00:42:05] to a few different people. Um, everyone knew. I mean, sounds very [00:42:10] much like things may not have changed that much, but who knows? Um, and, [00:42:15] you know, a lot of there have been a lot of catastrophes before me. Um, mine [00:42:20] was just another, you know, one along the road and I [00:42:25] basically, um, went to my boss at the time. Lovely, lovely boss [00:42:30] and just said, look, either I go part time and I don’t have to go to these consultant [00:42:35] meetings and be humiliated and screamed at on a regular basis for nothing, or [00:42:40] I walk. And that was a really hard thing for me to do because I, [00:42:45] you know, love my work. Um, she capitulated and that [00:42:50] made life much better. So I was offered that job in the first place, which, you know, was a learning [00:42:55] because I often was very dismissive of there were not many girls in that environment, obviously. But, [00:43:00] you know, girls were talking about fellow fellow women talking about being bullied, bullied at work. And I always [00:43:05] remember thinking, oh goodness, just stand up for yourself, you know? Boy, oh boy, was [00:43:10] the shoe on the other foot during that period. It was awful.

Payman Langroudi: And the kind [00:43:15] of woman who goes into oral surgery tends to be the get on with it type of person.

Tara Renton: Absolutely. [00:43:20] Well, as Stephen, Stephen was saying, is it something like 8% of [00:43:25] surgeons are psychopathic?

Payman Langroudi: That’s right, that’s right.

Tara Renton: And I’ve always joked, actually, I think you have to [00:43:30] be a little bit psychopathic to cut into another human being. Yeah, maybe as a dentist as well, I don’t know. But [00:43:35] you have to have that bit of your personality.

Payman Langroudi: But who do you blame for this incident? I [00:43:40] mean, clearly the perpetrator, but it’s.

Tara Renton: The culture of the department is, you know, is ongoing [00:43:45] for years there being, no female fatalities before? Before [00:43:50] me who’d been, you know, come and gone.

Payman Langroudi: But the culture of the the the profession, [00:43:55] I mean, you know, it starts in dental school, isn’t it? You get you get some [00:44:00] some poor student who gets targeted by by some teacher.

Tara Renton: Well, [00:44:05] there’s bullying everywhere. There’s bullying in the schools. I mean, thank God, you know, all this social media stuff has got worse, [00:44:10] I think. I’m so grateful. A, I didn’t grow up with that. And B, my kids, my kids. [00:44:15] 33, 31, 28 we didn’t, I mean, mobile phones were just coming [00:44:20] through. My daughter was going to senior school, so we were so lucky to. And my kids are lucky to have not. [00:44:25]

Payman Langroudi: But would you say the culture in academia is any better now?

Tara Renton: Uh, yeah. No, it is, it is, [00:44:30] it is. There’s still, you know, relatively fewer women, um, in [00:44:35] senior academia, particularly in, in medicine. Um, no, I think [00:44:40] it, I think it’s pretty good actually. I’m, I’ve not never been that. [00:44:45] So I was going to say that I then got. Basically offered to apply [00:44:50] for my job that, you know, I now have a Kings. And I know when a difficult time was happening [00:44:55] and I’d gone part time and I was thinking I was part time for about six months. I then got that message from Nan Wilson [00:45:00] saying, you know, um, the job I, the job I thought I was going to offer [00:45:05] you 18 months ago no longer exists, but actually there’s a chair first chair [00:45:10] in oral surgery. Would you, I want you to be at the interview. And I remember saying to him, I don’t have enough tickets [00:45:15] for that. So it’s not me aggressively looking for the next step up. I’ve, you [00:45:20] know, on three counts max fac training in Melbourne, I would argue actually even [00:45:25] the show at Torbay, I’ve been given those opportunities. You know.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes [00:45:30] it’s nicer. It’s nicer when someone doesn’t go for an opportunity. Like those are the people [00:45:35] you want to push forward sometimes.

Tara Renton: Well, there’s an element of that. I think there’s a lot less of that now. I think I think [00:45:40] in the dental environment, you know, our trainees, the kids that want to come and do oral surgery. [00:45:45] I mean, the ratio of applicants to successful training posts is [00:45:50] ridiculously high. And most of those kids are worthy of it for sure. [00:45:55] So it’s, um, it’s, it’s probably. Yes. [00:46:00] I’m not very good at playing the political games. I’m very aware of that. So [00:46:05] meetings, I would avoid those as much as possible. I always felt there were great waste of time. [00:46:10] I would go to meetings where I thought there might be a change at the end of it, something concrete. [00:46:15] But I often felt that actually it was a lot of meetings. For meetings sake. I was great [00:46:20] at getting in there doing. I loved, I ran the the undergraduate oral surgery program [00:46:25] for 11 years and made that really good. I loved it, great teachers, some still [00:46:30] around, which is amazing.

Payman Langroudi: You were head of department, right?

Tara Renton: Yeah, head of department. I was the first chair, first chair in [00:46:35] oral surgery appointed and obviously the first female. And there’s been lots since. Um. [00:46:40]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s let’s talk a little bit about orofacial pain. Yeah. And [00:46:45] about surgical safety. Mhm. Which [00:46:50] are your two main areas of interest? Um, firstly, [00:46:55] I, I’m really interested in this notion of it seems clear that [00:47:00] psychological stress, uh, sorry. It seems clear that that [00:47:05] chronic pain causes psychological stress, but it’s not so obvious. [00:47:10] But but it’s certainly true that psychological stress brings on pain.

Tara Renton: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s a two way [00:47:15] road.

Tara Renton: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And when you’ve got that patient in front of you that several others have probably looked at [00:47:20] and, and baffled by or, or it’s a difficult patient. Do you start [00:47:25] by trying to unpick the which which came first, the chicken or the egg or does it not? [00:47:30]

Tara Renton: You have to.

Payman Langroudi: Oh you.

Tara Renton: Do. You have to. So, I mean, I was so blessed in my job at King’s. [00:47:35] Um, I wrote several business plans, which obviously a bit of a challenge for me and set up [00:47:40] this multidisciplinary clinic. So we have, um, uh, headache neurologists. [00:47:45] Peter Goadsby, who’s like king of migraine. He’s the guy that did a lot of the research [00:47:50] behind the antibodies for migraine. He’s super, super, super chat. So [00:47:55] some of his fellows would come and work with us. We have, um, a liaison psychiatrist, [00:48:00] which is really interesting. Never been taught anything about psychiatry. Wow. That was an eye opener. [00:48:05] Then we had a fantastic clinical psychologist, Sarah Barker, who now works privately. And [00:48:10] we have a big psychology team at the dental school in Kings, um, at [00:48:15] Denmark Hill. And we have a neurosurgeon and we had, uh, [00:48:20] we have visiting ENT and some other specialists and obviously restorative the [00:48:25] likes of Martin Keller, her and Serpell before she retired, we dragged them down and asked them questions. [00:48:30] Is this crown? You know, um, Endodontists you know, Rachel, she popped down [00:48:35] and help us out with some of the patients because I haven’t done dentistry for proper dentistry [00:48:40] since early 88. So I’ve done [00:48:45] lots and lots of wisdom teeth, lots of operating, lots of, you know, maybe some bits and pieces, but but [00:48:50] not not general dentistry as we know it. So going back to your question, that [00:48:55] team basically opened up my eyes. It was one of the best things, probably one of my biggest achievements work [00:49:00] wise, because you actually learn from we’re so siloed in our training. And [00:49:05] I think particularly dentistry, that’s one that is a big bugbear. We’re underappreciated and we’re very [00:49:10] siloed, and it’s partly our own fault a little bit. Um, the it [00:49:15] was fascinating. Payman I and even now I get a kick going, you know, [00:49:20] um, so obviously, um, there.

Payman Langroudi: Was some, some [00:49:25] examples of cases that came through. So yeah, so.

Tara Renton: One of my take home stories, which [00:49:30] I talk about sometimes in my lectures is never, ever judge a book by its cover. And I’ve always [00:49:35] thought that anyway, if you’re dealing with people, you never can. But this is a really good example. She [00:49:40] was Iranian. Interestingly, she was 23. She was drop dead [00:49:45] gorgeous. She was wearing all her matching Gucci boots, everything super.

Payman Langroudi: Super [00:49:50] uniform.

Tara Renton: Super, super. Yeah. Don’t don’t get me started. She had a gorgeous fiance [00:49:55] who would patiently sit in the waiting room. Now she’d had a wisdom tooth out. Very straightforward [00:50:00] and ended up with a lingual nerve injury, which was painful. And that’s what I did, my PhD. And that’s how I got into [00:50:05] pain. So and I remember, and I see a lot of these, I mean, I probably [00:50:10] advise like sometimes up to ten cases a week even, you know, of LA [00:50:15] or Endo or whatever. And I remember she, [00:50:20] um, she was broken and I just couldn’t figure out this young, [00:50:25] beautiful girl with seemingly everything. Why, why was her response [00:50:30] so brittle? Why was she so vulnerable? And, um, and I, [00:50:35] tried to try to work my magic. So, um, all through this multidisciplinary [00:50:40] care, we pre assess our patients. So we do a plethora of tests around looking at [00:50:45] anxiety, depression, PTSD is relevant in these cases. Sleep. Um, [00:50:50] so we look at OSA sleep disorders. Um, we look at prior abuse and neglect. [00:50:55] Um, and we look at some types of personality disorders that are associated with chronic [00:51:00] pain. Um, so, so this is something that I started doing and I actually, I [00:51:05] even did it in my PhD. I even did a chapter because I remember seeing [00:51:10] when I was doing my part time PhD, it was all around wisdom tooth surgery. Smartest move I ever did. If [00:51:15] you do a PhD, do it around something that you love doing and that you’re doing lots of at the time, [00:51:20] and you can actually make it happen without having to take five years or three [00:51:25] years out of your life and transplant somewhere else, then come back.

Tara Renton: So, so I was basically doing [00:51:30] patients after third molar surgery, morbidity and looking at nerve injuries. And what I couldn’t [00:51:35] understand is these patients had numbness and they had pain. And that would never that was never recognised before. [00:51:40] So we now notice neuropathic pain. We didn’t know then. That’s what it was. So I was thinking, [00:51:45] how can these people have numbness and pain at the same time? And that’s basically what nerve injury does. Sensory [00:51:50] nerve injury does. And if if you’re having breast surgery thoracotomy limb [00:51:55] amputation, there’s like a 30, 30 to 45% chance you will have that [00:52:00] pain for the rest of your life having those procedures done. It’s massive. Massive. Um, [00:52:05] any trauma, surgery, trauma, physical trauma, burns, radiation, chemotherapy [00:52:10] can all cause neuropathic pain as well as diabetes and M.S. and other things. So [00:52:15] I go this patient and it just, it didn’t compute for me because I’d seen quite a lot of patients and I [00:52:20] was, you know, done my PhD and felt fairly expert in the area. [00:52:25] And I kept thinking, why is she so brittle? And I, I, [00:52:30] you know, pre assess the patients. I knew she had some degree of anxiety, depression. I [00:52:35] knew she definitely had PTSD. I was about 70% of all patients with nerve injuries have PTSD, if they [00:52:40] particularly have the pain.

Tara Renton: And, um, and I sort of do [00:52:45] my very open lots of hugs, apologise, you know, on behalf of the profession. I’m really [00:52:50] sorry this has happened. You know, I know you’re warned about it. And it’s like, you know, [00:52:55] we all know when you walk across the road, you can get run over by a bus. No one sees this coming. And when [00:53:00] it happens, if you’re the wrong personality type, anxiety, depression and no sleep, it’s [00:53:05] going to hit you really, really hard and you may not actually get over it properly. So [00:53:10] I was thinking at that time and I said, look, I think you need to see my I saw her twice. And I said, I [00:53:15] think you really should see our clinical psychologists, you know, and [00:53:20] maybe, maybe the psychiatrist. Anyway, I got her back. [00:53:25] She wouldn’t she wouldn’t do it. So I got her back for the third time. And I, and I spent quite a long time, at least 45 [00:53:30] minutes with these patients. And this time I just said to her, look, I I’ve done my best [00:53:35] with you. And normally by this stage after one visit, most people understand become [00:53:40] a little bit more accepting, understand what the neuropathic pain is. It’s, it’s nerve injury that’s sending [00:53:45] signals to your brain like a text message. Emma Beecroft is great at this. And her lectures, [00:53:50] text messages is going to brain saying, pain’s still happening in my finger or in my tooth, but actually it’s [00:53:55] the brain that’s misrepresenting the signals going through.

Tara Renton: And, [00:54:00] um, she, she broke down again [00:54:05] and I just said to her, look, what can I do? And I just said, you know, what’s [00:54:10] happened? And she said, well, obviously it’s confidential, but [00:54:15] no one knows who she is. And um, she said, well, my parents brought [00:54:20] my sister and I to London when actually, you know, my parents brought [00:54:25] me to London when I was five years old When I was nine, [00:54:30] my parents had a difficult marriage. When I was nine, my mum had my baby [00:54:35] sister and a year after that, or 18 months after that, my [00:54:40] dad was killed on a bike on his bicycle outside Selfridges. So my mum was obviously [00:54:45] very dependent. I think she had one, quite some family members in [00:54:50] London and she looked to them to support this [00:54:55] patient, then got sexually abused by one of the uncles. And [00:55:00] obviously bigger stressor was to make sure that it didn’t happen to her younger sister. This [00:55:05] fell out. Her mother decided the best place for them to go back to Iran. So [00:55:10] they went back to Iran to be closer to other family members. Um, and [00:55:15] her, it didn’t go well. So she [00:55:20] obviously she had an English passport. She came back to England, basically cared for [00:55:25] her sister, brought her sister back so her sister could go to university in England and [00:55:30] she’d set up a very successful business. Um, put all this stuff behind [00:55:35] her, met her lovely fiance, goes the dentist, has a wisdom tooth taken [00:55:40] out.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Tara Renton: And has a nerve injury. And this is the proverbial straw on the camel’s [00:55:45] back. And she just could not pick herself up afterwards. And you think. [00:55:50] And I got I get goosebumps just recounting. I’ve got so many stories like this. You [00:55:55] know, she.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, look, interestingly, it took three visits to unlock that story. Well it’s. [00:56:00]

Tara Renton: Time. Yeah. It’s a time and trust.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: And you talk about that a lot. You know, and, [00:56:05] you know, I talk about it a lot with wrong site surgery and bits and pieces. Because [00:56:10] as a specialist, you generally just see patients. And with increasing with the NHS demands on [00:56:15] time, you have such limited time to build trust with that patient. And actually trust really [00:56:20] underpins consent. Yeah. You know, effectively, you know, Henry Marsh who [00:56:25] Stephen referred to the neurosurgeon. He talks about he did a fantastic seminar [00:56:30] on consent at the Royal College of Surgeons a couple of years ago. And he basically says, you know, consent is [00:56:35] about trust. If my patient needs to understand what I’m doing when I’m taking a brain tumour out, they need to go and do 11 [00:56:40] years neurosurgery training and like another ten years post-grad. Then they’ll understand what I’m doing. [00:56:45] It’s trust. So that’s what I try and establish with my patients. I think [00:56:50] I am very empathic, I’m very interested in their stories. I have time for them to tell me [00:56:55] their stories. But for me, one of the key things is to have this pre-assessment. And for the life of me, [00:57:00] I don’t understand why. In general, medicine, dentistry and physio, beauticians, particularly [00:57:05] aesthetic aestheticians, I don’t know how I couldn’t work now [00:57:10] without having this. I’ve developed a web app with a partner with my PhD students, which basically [00:57:15] gives you all this summarised very simply. It’s a brilliant tool. Orofacial [00:57:20] pain facial pain.org. It’s geared for orofacial pain patients, [00:57:25] but it could definitely have a use just to see how difficult your patient’s going [00:57:30] to be or what a difficult time your patient’s having.

Tara Renton: And like you say, it’s a flip side [00:57:35] stress because of this or stress already before it. Yeah. So we know if you have high levels of [00:57:40] anxiety, depression, those same neurotransmitters and neural pathways, anxiety, depression, [00:57:45] stress, they’re the same as chronic pain pathways. So if you’ve got stuff going [00:57:50] on already in those pathways and you’ve got like this new nerve pain, the system just doesn’t [00:57:55] cope. And, and you’re much less resilient if you’ve had prior life abuse, neglect, [00:58:00] adverse events. And we know that your brain developed now is they [00:58:05] used to say women 2022 men 2224. They think it’s even later. [00:58:10] Now it’s like late 20s when your brain, your somatosensory system, your neuro system is [00:58:15] fully developed. If you have a critical life event during that development, something [00:58:20] happens. It makes you much more fundamentally at risk of chronic disease, [00:58:25] not just chronic pain, diabetes, cardiovascular. Yeah. So [00:58:30] those resilience, your resources are diminished significantly if you’re not sleeping, [00:58:35] if you’re anxiety anxious, you’re depressed, your resources diminished, you [00:58:40] can’t cope with this extra stuff that’s happening. So, so you cannot see a lot of patients, [00:58:45] I would argue, not just chronic pain patients without fundamentally understanding what’s going [00:58:50] on behind the patient, behind that very nice smiley face and a Gucci handbag when they turn [00:58:55] up to your clinic. Yeah. You need to understand what’s happening there, particularly, I think if you’re doing complex [00:59:00] elective work. So, you know, doing implant work, aesthetic work, I think you need to be able to understand [00:59:05] if that patient’s motivations are right.

Payman Langroudi: Of course. [00:59:10]

Tara Renton: And not falling into that trap, that horrible, horrible medical legal trap where [00:59:15] things go, go wrong of.

Payman Langroudi: The patients that you get sent, which are [00:59:20] the ones that are sort of most common and easy for you to clear [00:59:25] up and which are the opposite. Like.

Tara Renton: Oh, I love a toothache. Give [00:59:30] me a toothache.

Payman Langroudi: Toothache as well. You don’t the person doesn’t know. [00:59:35]

Tara Renton: I tell you, the toothache, the chronic toothache, pain. I’ve got some great examples.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so then you [00:59:40] work with the endodontist on that or.

Tara Renton: Well, no. Generally the tooth is. By the time we’ve seen one, the pain clinic [00:59:45] know it’s time for extraction. Yeah, yeah. I tell you, I love I really miss [00:59:50] my wisdom tooth list. It was just so nice. Pericoronitis. Take the tooth [00:59:55] out. Oh, I miss those days. Um. Yeah. No, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: If [01:00:00] you break them up into the kind of categories.

Tara Renton: Okay, so tooth related. What else? So you’ve got odontogenic [01:00:05] pain. Um, so there’s I cop International Classification of Orofacial Pain published in 2020. [01:00:10] Cephalalgia. I was part of an international team. We’re revisiting it at the moment. It’s [01:00:15] a faulty document. But the aim was there’s this massive conglomerate so that if you go to pain [01:00:20] meetings, which I’ve been to a lot in my life, you’ll have the rheumatologist and the headache neurologist arguing [01:00:25] who’s more important, who, which owns the most pain in the world. And, and [01:00:30] arguably, they both kind of like up their 40% ish. Um, [01:00:35] so, um, what was I going to say? We were talking about, uh, [01:00:40] I’ve lost my, lost my focus on that. What was the question?

Payman Langroudi: Different types of oh, [01:00:45] different types of pain.

Tara Renton: So I got basically, um, so the going back to headache neurologists, they, uh, [01:00:50] international Association of study of Pain iasp is massive. And basically they [01:00:55] have these big classification systems and the big classification system that touched on our region [01:01:00] was the International Headache Society and the International classification of headache [01:01:05] disorders HD. So they have that and they have like trigeminal neuralgia in there. They [01:01:10] have some neuropathic pain, uh, no acute pain. So so when [01:01:15] you’re doing this work, you’re trying to use the right diagnostics to make sure that the research is valid and robust. [01:01:20] But we didn’t really have a good classification system. We didn’t have one that is aligned to those. [01:01:25] So we’re talking the same language, and we didn’t have one that included acute pain. So a [01:01:30] chronic and acute. So we now have a system that’s acute and chronic. So there’s toothaches. [01:01:35] So odontogenic pain not just toothache. It’s um mucosa bone teeth but dental [01:01:40] alveolar salivary salivary gland. Yeah. And [01:01:45] then there’s muscle group which is mainly temporomandibular joint myogenous group. Then [01:01:50] there’s arthrogenic TMD joint pain. And then there is [01:01:55] the title. It’s basically neuropathic pain cranial nerve lesions of cranial [01:02:00] nerves leading to pain, which includes trigeminal neuralgia. Glossopharyngeal really [01:02:05] rare. But the most common thing is post-traumatic neuropathy, which is nerve injury, which is what I deal with. And that’s what I [01:02:10] did. My PhD in burning mouth, burning mouth, I think should be neuropathic burning. So we’ve [01:02:15] got neuropathic, then we’ve got, uh, neurovascular conditions mimicking headaches. So we [01:02:20] see loads and loads of migraine in the face that’s misdiagnosed and trigeminal [01:02:25] autonomic cephalalgias, which is cluster headaches. Loads and loads. And then the last one clinical [01:02:30] group is the um idiopathic which I hate, which includes at the moment [01:02:35] burning mouth, which I think should be neuropathic and actually persistent idiopathic facial pain and persistent [01:02:40] idiopathic or persistent dento alveolar pain. So intra-oral extra-oral [01:02:45] idiopathic persistent pain. Most of those have neuropathic features. So I’m hoping one day that [01:02:50] that number six will go. And then the seventh category is the axis two, which obviously is all important. [01:02:55]

Payman Langroudi: Axis two.

Tara Renton: Which is psychological.

Payman Langroudi: Or psychological.

Tara Renton: So that’s all important because [01:03:00] you can’t. So so it’s a really nice classification.

Payman Langroudi: So out of those ones which are the hardest [01:03:05] to spot, which are the hardest to spot.

Tara Renton: The conditions, it’s the patient.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, okay.

Tara Renton: Just [01:03:10] like dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Tara Renton: You know, um, Richard was talking about doing? [01:03:15] I can’t remember. It was a simple procedure. If the patient’s really difficult. And I think [01:03:20] that’s something we underestimate, I think, well, I’m longer in the tooth than you are, but after a certain time [01:03:25] seeing patients, you get like an antennae, a feeling that something’s not quite [01:03:30] right here. Yeah. Um, you know, I think we should be much more out there thinking [01:03:35] about what personality? The hateful patient that again, Richard [01:03:40] alluded to and the Richard Groves paper in 1978. I talk about this. We’ve just published [01:03:45] a paper in um Dental update about complaints. Now, is it the patient or [01:03:50] is it the procedure or is it the. And a lot of it, you know, I, I’ve [01:03:55] had one complaint against me in my career that I know about that went to the GDC. This guy [01:04:00] complained about eight people at the dental school. So that’s the only complaint. And I remember [01:04:05] getting a letter, another long story anyway, from the GDC, didn’t even know the complaint had happened, saying the [01:04:10] complaints dismissed. And I just thought, oh my God, I didn’t know I had a complaint. And it was like [01:04:15] literally like, I think a year, the last year of retirement.

Payman Langroudi: Pretty good going in a 40 year [01:04:20] career in in pain.

Tara Renton: Incredible.

Payman Langroudi: Pain. It wasn’t 40 years in pain, but it was 20 [01:04:25] years. But high risk area.

Tara Renton: It is. It is. And they’re very tricky [01:04:30] patients. So so for me, it’s not the condition that’s difficult. That’s the that’s [01:04:35] the low hanging fruit. I mean they’re difficult to manage. But you’re not managing [01:04:40] the pain. You’re managing the patient with the pain. And I think if you’ve got a complex patient, [01:04:45] which some of them are, I mean, I’m seeing private patients now mainly online, um, [01:04:50] and see some to face to face. Um, but you go through the history and [01:04:55] it is, it’s heart sink. I mean, there’s so much stuff, but often what’s [01:05:00] really relevant is what’s happened before. So, you know, another, another group of patients, the [01:05:05] idiopathic facial pain, which I hate and I don’t believe in it. So definition of pain, you can feel pain without [01:05:10] physical injury. Yeah, we all know that. When my daughter started at Surbiton School, [01:05:15] two days in, she had her mobile phone. I was in the middle of a busy clinic. The phone goes. [01:05:20] I’ve got on the wrong train. I’m thinking, oh, [01:05:25] God. So I said, calm down, darling. You know, which train are you on? Well, I’ve just left Kingston, [01:05:30] but I don’t know where it’s going. It’s not going home. And I said, well, can you look for a nice lady and [01:05:35] just let me speak on your phone? So find nice lady talking to the nice lady on the phone.

Payman Langroudi: Was she like 12?

Tara Renton: She was 11.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:05:40]

Tara Renton: And, um, and the woman’s going. Oh, yes. No, no, your daughter’s here. Yeah. No, it is the wrong train. [01:05:45] Don’t worry. I’ll. I’ll get her out on the platform and get her going in the right direction. Oh oh. Oh, no. And [01:05:50] I said what’s happened? She said, oh, I think your daughter ran back to get her bag. And the doors have closed. [01:05:55] So my daughter’s now on the wrong train with no phone, no one to talk to. And I remember that [01:06:00] even now, I get that visceral pain. Yeah, it’s a really good example. There’s loads of different [01:06:05] examples, but that’s how I, you know, you don’t need to have physical damage to have pain. So we [01:06:10] see patients who have decades or sometimes decades, but many, many [01:06:15] years of chronic pain, difficult patients, complex history, [01:06:20] lots of anxiety, depression. There’s a bit of PTSD going on there. And [01:06:25] you get chatting to them. And sometimes they’ve just had a terrible, terrible [01:06:30] early year life. But sometimes it’s something like the [01:06:35] husband dies. There’s this massive tax bill that they didn’t know about. The dog’s [01:06:40] ill. Their best friend’s had some bad news. It’s just these little red flags, [01:06:45] these tipping factors that just tips them. They can’t cope anymore. And actually we’ve got [01:06:50] I keep meaning to write it out. We’ve had nine patients, um, one man, [01:06:55] mainly mainly ladies and basically their pain went with grief counselling. Um [01:07:00] so that makes sense. It makes total sense that if you’re managing the patient holistically. [01:07:05]

Payman Langroudi: You must be really good at by now. You must be really good at sort of explaining [01:07:10] to the patient that the stress is a big factor.

Tara Renton: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: But but I remember [01:07:15] I used to do one session a week with a guy called Doctor Jagger in [01:07:20] Cardiff.

Tara Renton: Yes, I remember that.

Payman Langroudi: He used to have a pain clinic as well. It was, it was kind of a TMJ [01:07:25] clinic. But but you’d get burning mouth syndrome and trigeminal neuralgia thrown in there. [01:07:30] And I remember as a young dentist, just really struggling with trying to get over [01:07:35] to the patient that, look, the number one cause of this issue is stress. Whereas [01:07:40] sometimes when you say to a patient, look, it could be that there’s something psychologically or stress going on, [01:07:45] a lot of times they think you’re dismissing them. Yeah. And just trying to get through that, that it’s a real [01:07:50] thing. Don’t worry about it.

Tara Renton: No, it’s really it’s really true. But I think there’s much more acceptance around [01:07:55] that now. I mean, when I’m talking to my patients, I’m talking about anxiety. [01:08:00] Obviously I’ve got fantastic measures. Now I can actually broach that subject. People are more open to that. [01:08:05] I always remember thinking when we started doing the psych screenings, we started off like hard copy. I [01:08:10] remember thinking, none of the patients are going to do this, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Tara Renton: To be fair.

Payman Langroudi: I’m talking a [01:08:15] 25 year old story today. The taboos are much, much easier.

Tara Renton: It’s very, very rare. [01:08:20] We get patients saying, actually, I don’t want to do your questionnaire because there’s too many personal questions there. [01:08:25] It’s very rare we have that. It’s more around technical issues that they can’t do the online thing.

Payman Langroudi: Because [01:08:30] they.

Tara Renton: Can’t use a keyboard or something. But that’s not too often. But it’s just so important. [01:08:35] And I love it because I have my summary and I get my consultation [01:08:40] documents together. That’s how I’ve worked for the last 20 years, and I feel like I know what’s coming [01:08:45] through the door. I’m prepared for what’s coming through the door rather than spending like the first 15, [01:08:50] 20 minutes of the consultation, which would be much more difficult because you’re not ready for the [01:08:55] patient. You know, we had a little summary on the computer screen, anxiety up there, depression [01:09:00] up there. Ptsd, no sleep, you know. Um, it’s [01:09:05] just makes total sense to me that we should be doing that with all our patients. Yes. [01:09:10] And I’d love to see a day when we and, you know, arguably it’d be very interesting to look at personality disorders [01:09:15] because those are the people who are really difficult, difficult to manage. They have, you [01:09:20] know, with pain. They have to accept that they have to take tablets, they have to do other things like improve their [01:09:25] nutrition and their microbiome. Talk a lot around my patients around, you know, cheap [01:09:30] pain. You know, you don’t like taking tablets. Well, there’s evidence base for these vitamins [01:09:35] that will reduce migraine. There’s evidence base that actually, if you eat this kind of diet, you’re going to have [01:09:40] loads more dopamine going around serotonin, serotonin, you know, all those natural pain [01:09:45] endorphins you can make with a good diet.

Payman Langroudi: What do you mean? Which diet gives me more serotonin [01:09:50] and dopamine? So tell me immediately.

Tara Renton: Well, I can give you.

Payman Langroudi: I’m a bit of an addict of those two [01:09:55] substances.

Tara Renton: All of my websites, all of my orofacial pain.org.uk. And [01:10:00] then there’s a specific one nerve injury. But and actually I’ve got a I do an annual I call them my [01:10:05] two virtual children, not my three real children. And I do an annual update. The annual update is happening in February. [01:10:10] So there’s a lot more stuff around nutrition going in there as well. And again, it was really refreshing hearing Richard talk about [01:10:15] that as well. And actually a couple of other much more. A microbiome is an amazing thing. And I’ve [01:10:20] had time now I’m retired. I cycle every morning. Um, I take much more care about [01:10:25] my tummy.

Payman Langroudi: Is it like kefir and this sort of stuff? Yeah, yeah.

Tara Renton: There’s a, it’s a mix of stuff. It’s [01:10:30] different colour, you know, the good old Zoe kind of stuff, you know, nuts, seeds.

Payman Langroudi: Several [01:10:35] different different.

Tara Renton: Vegetables.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent.

Tara Renton: I haven’t, I haven’t touched red meat for years. [01:10:40] Have you got. I will do if someone serves it at a dinner party I’ll eat it. But yeah. Um cutting [01:10:45] down the alcohol, which is probably for me the toughest thing.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I find coffee difficult [01:10:50] to like. Coffee. Giant amount of coffee. Do you?

Tara Renton: I used to, I went off [01:10:55] at all three pregnancies and red wine and I’ve never gone back there. So yeah, it’s funny, isn’t it. But coffee can be [01:11:00] really good for you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I heard.

Tara Renton: There’s some headaches that respond to coffee. You drink coffee last thing at night, [01:11:05] and it cures your headaches. So there’s some really interesting things.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get on to the darker part of [01:11:10] the pod. Actually, before we move on. Yeah. It’s such a privilege as a [01:11:15] dentist to be able to alleviate pain. Mhm. Yeah. And we’ve all done it. Your [01:11:20] patient comes in toothache, you extirpate it, and you kind of find [01:11:25] a few canals. And, you know, when that patient gets home and things are warmed up, you’ve [01:11:30] done a you’ve done a great job. They’re your sort of detective work that you have to do that [01:11:35] when you finally get to a solution for someone like that [01:11:40] Iranian lady you were talking about, there must be a massive sense of of achievement. [01:11:45]

Tara Renton: Absolutely. Love it. Payman. And the problem with chronic pain is you don’t necessarily get the patient [01:11:50] out of pain.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Tara Renton: But you’ve dealt with all these holistic [01:11:55] issues. You’ve given them a clear diagnosis, A clear prognosis [01:12:00] and some possibilities, some tools that they can do. I love it. I do feel like [01:12:05] Inspector Clouseau on the clinic.

Payman Langroudi: Sounds like it. Yeah.

Tara Renton: Because you’re literally at different pebbles, [01:12:10] different things.

Payman Langroudi: Lifting up different bits.

Tara Renton: So interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s now get to the darker [01:12:15] part of the pod. We like to talk about mistakes. And now with your medico legal work, [01:12:20] you see loads and loads of mistakes. So I’d like to get into some of that. How, how, how do people [01:12:25] avoid the common things. But I also like to get into any clinical [01:12:30] areas that stand out. Your own clinical areas that stand out to you.

Tara Renton: Um, I’ve got [01:12:35] one not so funny for the patient and one. I mean, I, so [01:12:40] I remember my father taking out the wrong premolar on his best friend, his orthodontist [01:12:45] friend’s daughter. So for me, that was I remember him coming inside. Yeah. Wrong side. [01:12:50]

Payman Langroudi: Oh my.

Tara Renton: Goodness. And and I remember he was like that pale grey colour before you have a coronary. [01:12:55] He was like that for like three days. So that’s been always with me. But I only reappeared when [01:13:00] I was involved in the lock slips and the wrong site surgery. And I’ve done it. I’ve taken out [01:13:05] four wisdom teeth on a 60 year old or 17 year old boy. I should have had just two wisdom teeth taken out. [01:13:10] Didn’t realise. Gah! Just no. Just just routine. [01:13:15] I’d written it up wrong. You know, I always wrote my own treatment plan. Never, never delegated anyone else on [01:13:20] the board in front of me with the X-ray checked. And I managed to do that. And I remember as [01:13:25] soon as I.

Payman Langroudi: Realised.

Tara Renton: Realised I just I and I went, obviously [01:13:30] the patient was taken to recovery and I went straight at his mother’s in the waiting room and I just said to look, I’ve [01:13:35] made, I’ve made a mistake. I’ve taken out all his four wisdom teeth.

Payman Langroudi: The uppers instead of [01:13:40] two.

Tara Renton: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I said, look, I’m really, really sorry. Um, [01:13:45] this is, you know, wrong. Um, I’ll give you my details. And and she [01:13:50] said, oh, thank God for that. She said, because we were telling the orthodontist said the dentist said that [01:13:55] he only needed two out, but actually we wanted to have four out because he’s going travelling next year. So I was [01:14:00] so lucky. But it’s very poignant because it stays with you. It’s just so [01:14:05] easily done. I mean, when I was others, I’ve written lots of papers around wrong site surgery [01:14:10] and and, and patient safety. What we do as dentists [01:14:15] is really, really difficult. And I know you’ve touched on this on quite a few podcasts. So [01:14:20] we as dentists, as you say, we’re individual practitioners. Yes. We have our dental nurse with us. We’re in [01:14:25] a room by ourselves most of the day, or none of our patients want to come and see us. They all know they’re [01:14:30] going to get pain, even a little, tiny bit. They’re going to get pain. Most patients actually [01:14:35] just even looking at the appointment card, if you take an MRI of their brain, [01:14:40] the amygdala, the limbic system is lighting up basically that, [01:14:45] you know, that non-physical pain is already happening in their brain when they get into the [01:14:50] car park. It’s almost actually happening before you get a needle or anything near them, and then [01:14:55] when they see the dental chair or they hear their drill and in the next door surgery, or they [01:15:00] see a syringe. Yeah, they’ve already got the pain. You can literally just [01:15:05] do.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: And they’ll have the pain. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, and you know, we, we [01:15:10] work in that environment. We are immune to it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. We’re normalised.

Tara Renton: And I have said, [01:15:15] you know, if I ever became dean of a dental school, which I haven’t and I won’t, I always said if I would change [01:15:20] dental training, I would say you sit down with your patient in a medical conversation, a medical consultation [01:15:25] model. You sit eye, eye to eye level in two chairs next to each other and have a conversation. [01:15:30] You do the consultation like that. You you do your consent [01:15:35] like that. You only put them in the dental chair to examine them, take them out again to carry on [01:15:40] the conversation about what you found, and then you put them back in the dental chair to do your treatment. And I honestly [01:15:45] think if we did that, patients would retain more, they’d hear more and actually probably be better [01:15:50] in a room without the dental chair because that’s a massive, massive trigger for many, many patients. [01:15:55] Can we give painless blocks, painless injections? I don’t [01:16:00] think so. I mean, with all the stuff I’ve written about LA around minimising nerve injuries, but more [01:16:05] about optimising pain management patients, you don’t need to give blocks very often. You use [01:16:10] infiltration dentistry. All Implantologists been doing that for years and you’re [01:16:15] smart. You know, you can give them topical local anaesthetic or a bit of ice. It’s probably [01:16:20] the most effective. Give them the articaine buccal articaine get it so that you’re blanching [01:16:25] the lingual mucosa without going, you know, lingually.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t push so hard on the plunger. [01:16:30] Right.

Tara Renton: Just gentle. I mean, and also, you know, it’s, [01:16:35] it’s just we’re immune. You know, we there’s no way that [01:16:40] you can do dentistry with an ID block painlessly. You can’t. The pulpal anaesthesia rates are [01:16:45] so poor. If that injection was invented now and said, oh, dentists, we’re going to be doing this from it, we’d laugh them [01:16:50] out of the room. It’s just it just doesn’t work well enough.

Payman Langroudi: Do you have any tips and tricks on.

Tara Renton: I [01:16:55] have some good tips and tricks.

Payman Langroudi: Well, don’t do them.

Tara Renton: No, no, no, it’s not that. [01:17:00] So I’m, I’m not a great advocate of um of of the direct [01:17:05] Halstead. I rather do indirect. So you’re not going through the lingual nerve. In fact what I started doing in [01:17:10] my later years, if I was going to give a block is do a gow-gates. Go higher. They’re just as effective as a Halstead, [01:17:15] but they. They completely miss the lingual nerve. Okay. And the ID nerve. [01:17:20] So you just go higher up and you just follow along the the the top of the wisdom teeth [01:17:25] into the little fossa retromolar fossa and just go direct. You don’t have to be near the nerve. [01:17:30] We know that you can be a centimetre and a half away from the nerve. The local anaesthetic we use is so good, so [01:17:35] strong. It works. But you do need to wait ten minutes for a block to work for the optimum [01:17:40] pulpal anaesthesia, which is another reason why it’s so short.

Payman Langroudi: Ten minutes, ten minutes.

Tara Renton: And if you’re a [01:17:45] patient or a red haired patient or an anxious patient, which most of them are, could [01:17:50] take up to 20 minutes to get optimal pulpal anaesthesia from an IDB, which is why [01:17:55] they’re so rubbish.

Payman Langroudi: Why, oh why do they?

Tara Renton: Because there’s lots of theories. It [01:18:00] might be an enzyme thing. It might be laxity. Laxity of the connective tissue, a bit like in pregnancy. They [01:18:05] don’t really know. But they’ve got a really high resistance to local anaesthetic. Um [01:18:10] poor things with all the other stuff that they have to deal with.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, so in general you’re saying go a little bit higher [01:18:15] than you think.

Tara Renton: Well, the first thing was don’t give an inferior dental block [01:18:20] unless you have.

Payman Langroudi: To, unless you have to.

Tara Renton: So I would do infiltration dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so. [01:18:25] Articaine.

Tara Renton: Articaine. Buccally. Yeah. Um, the, the anterior mandible is [01:18:30] very porous, so it works brilliantly here. Don’t stick it into the mental nerve. Don’t go anywhere near nerves. [01:18:35] Mhm. Um but the, but the lingually, the mandible is very porous. So what [01:18:40] you can do is you can give your I used to say get a cartridge of articaine and do [01:18:45] in front and back of the tooth, go slightly higher up. So you blanch the lingual mucosa. [01:18:50] And then if you need to go in, if there’s still pulpal sensitive, you can give a lidocaine [01:18:55] and not know only if you’re doing extractions. Never give in to ligamental unless just [01:19:00] infiltration. Okay, but often you don’t need to do that. If you’ve got a polycytic tooth or [01:19:05] a big zit somewhere like a big acne spot or any inflammation in the trigeminal system, [01:19:10] your sodium channels will be absolutely, um, sensitised. So that’s [01:19:15] another reason why your your local anaesthetics not working. So give them ibuprofen, solubility, ibuprofen, [01:19:20] as long as they can take it about 20 minutes before the giving the local anaesthetic and that will optimise [01:19:25] your local anaesthesia because it’s basically reducing the sodium channel hyperactivity. Old [01:19:30] stuff. Ken Hargreaves, 1980s champion, Endodontist [01:19:35] pharmacist, dean of Houston dental school wow. Mega guy. It’s all out there. [01:19:40]

Payman Langroudi: Interesting.

Tara Renton: So a lot of this stuff infiltration and you’ll have much more comfort [01:19:45] for the patient. There’s much nicer injection to have. Much more effective pulpal anaesthesia. [01:19:50] And I just don’t know why we’re not doing more and more of that. And if you probably the patients you have to give [01:19:55] a block for would be a complex prosthodontics. If you’re doing long procedures, [01:20:00] you can top it up like you would in an IDB in the old days. Um and possibly [01:20:05] endo. Um, and the endodontic is actually probably the best [01:20:10] trained of all of us in managing, uh, managing postoperative [01:20:15] pain. I just operative pain.

Payman Langroudi: In general, pain in general.

Tara Renton: It’s a big part of their training [01:20:20] program. I mean, going back to that, you know, again, so many [01:20:25] things, but in vets get something like 40 hours of pain [01:20:30] training. Really medics for [01:20:35] six.

Payman Langroudi: That’s crazy. Dentists none.

Tara Renton: Half [01:20:40] an hour if you’re lucky.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: It’s bad.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: And it was and I hadn’t realised, you know, [01:20:45] Richard was talking about what a stressor it is for a lot of people doing DBS.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Tara Renton: Well it [01:20:50] shouldn’t be.

Payman Langroudi: I took, I took five years off when we started the company and [01:20:55] then my wife got pregnant. And then I went back part time after that. And [01:21:00] after five years of not giving an ID block, I had massive stress.

Tara Renton: I’m not surprised. [01:21:05]

Payman Langroudi: My first. But actually something had happened. I’d forgotten something that they [01:21:10] started. I was started becoming not very good at ID blocks after [01:21:15] five years off. And I.

Tara Renton: Think you’re a bit more just a bit more critical.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe. But I just [01:21:20] remember going back to my wife and saying, let’s talk about this. How do you do it? Because [01:21:25] I don’t remember having a problem before.

Tara Renton: It’s waiting. It’s waiting. That’s all it is. [01:21:30] It’s waiting.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So in private industry, it’s very easy to wait because I take that time to talk [01:21:35] to the patient and that’s the best thing you can do anyway. Talk to the patient in NHS. They do the other thing sometimes. [01:21:40] I don’t know if it’s still a thing. Wait in the waiting room? Yes. That used to work very well.

Tara Renton: My dad [01:21:45] did these two surgeries next.

Payman Langroudi: To each.

Tara Renton: Other.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that used to work very well, didn’t it? I guess that’s why [01:21:50] those patients were properly anaesthetised. Um. I can’t see being able to do [01:21:55] that in private anymore, though. No, no.

Tara Renton: No. I think it’s probably not. Not possible.

Payman Langroudi: And how [01:22:00] do you how do you manage the wrong site surgery? By putting protocols [01:22:05] in where two people are checking at a time.

Tara Renton: You know, you you can’t take the wrong brain out and you can’t take [01:22:10] the heart out. Wrong heart out. Because obviously you’ve got one of those kidneys. It’s possible, you know, [01:22:15] and limbs it’s possible and lungs it’s possible. But um, dentistry, we’ve got [01:22:20] four quadrants and we’ve got two dentitions. So honestly, it’s like tiger country. Yeah. [01:22:25] And um, as my, you know, my dear old dad used to say, shit happens. And I say that a lot [01:22:30] at work and I to my patients and to, you know, um, play with [01:22:35] fire. You’re going to get burnt sometimes. It doesn’t matter how many protocol wise.

Payman Langroudi: What do you suggest? [01:22:40] What did when you did the work and decided.

Tara Renton: Oh, I see, well, the loxp stuff. Yeah. [01:22:45] No, it’s um it’s out there. It’s a big committee. The Royal College of Surgeons and we [01:22:50] did specialist locks for each domain. So a lot of it’s around checklists and [01:22:55] just, you know, making sure that your radiograph is, is labelled correct, labelled correctly. [01:23:00] Obviously it’s on screen now so it’s less likely to happen.

Payman Langroudi: That got me. I draw the wrong side.

Tara Renton: That’s [01:23:05] you see that happens a lot. And I think one of the key things is if you’re doing the surgery, the onus is [01:23:10] to you the medical legal. Even if the anaesthetist messes up, it’s still the surgeon’s problem. So you [01:23:15] just have to plan and be clear. But also just make [01:23:20] sure, put your plan, you know, up somewhere on a piece of paper and [01:23:25] you check with your nurse and a nurse. A dental nurse twice has stopped me doing wrong site surgery [01:23:30] really. And that’s, you know, talking about having your nurses. I always say, if you’ve got a really [01:23:35] good nurse, they’re good enough to be a dentist. And they should be. I think they should [01:23:40] be able to do it, to be honest. But anyway, I just think having that team approach [01:23:45] and people being able to speak up, that’s such a good sign that, you know, my couple [01:23:50] of times Dental have said actually, um, Tara, your and you know, I’m never Tara, [01:23:55] I’m think your forceps are on the seven or the six.

Payman Langroudi: Goodness [01:24:00] me.

Tara Renton: It’s fantastic. Why wouldn’t you want that in your team?

Payman Langroudi: Of course. Yeah. [01:24:05] Of course. So for instance, in black box thinking that yeah, they found one of the big [01:24:10] crashes, famous ones, uh, Canary Islands. There was [01:24:15] a massive plane crash where one plane went straight into another one on the runway. And just [01:24:20] before it was it was a very famous captain. Yeah. Just before [01:24:25] he said, he said, okay, full power ahead. Yeah. And the first officer who was a junior [01:24:30] said something like, sir, are you sure there’s a plane? And then there was this muffle [01:24:35] of him saying that. Yeah. And then the plane went forward and smashed. And then they made [01:24:40] a protocol with pilots of this sort of like.

Tara Renton: Listen.

Payman Langroudi: Whistle blowing kind of [01:24:45] that if you as a junior, if you see a senior doing something there [01:24:50] and then speak up and, and, and, and, you know, he was too scared to really say it. [01:24:55]

Tara Renton: Yeah. Well, the protocol, you know, our student protocol now is you check and recheck. So you [01:25:00] make sure you’ve got the right, you know, you double check your notes, you double check you’ve got the right patient. You double check you’ve [01:25:05] written the right treatment plan up there. Um, you, um, when you’re giving the local anaesthetic you check with [01:25:10] your nurse. I’m doing the right side. Yeah. Yeah. And when with your nurse again you say right, I’m taking out the lower right [01:25:15] six and I’m putting my forceps on the lower right. Six and it’s all with your, [01:25:20] with your, with your dental nurse or your or your. So it’s a, it’s a team [01:25:25] team work. They have to have that confidence to be able to speak up.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about teaching [01:25:30] in Kings and you’ve seen generations of, of dentists go through. Um, [01:25:35] can you tell? Pretty early on who are going to be the stars? Um.

Tara Renton: Um. [01:25:40]

Payman Langroudi: What about what about the, the teaching itself. I mean, we’re [01:25:45] about to do this event. You should come, by the way, we’re about to do an event at Ministry [01:25:50] of Sound. Oh, are you a Dental conference at Ministry of Sound?

Tara Renton: Fantastic.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:25:55] but where that comes from? Yes. Is that particularly post-COVID? [01:26:00] I feel like Dental education, if we’re going to get up out of our homes [01:26:05] and out of our jobs and come somewhere. Yes. That that there needs to be something about going [01:26:10] somewhere that makes that makes sense to that, you know, it’s got to be either super fun or [01:26:15] you’ve got to meet people who you’re going to network with later on, and it’s going to work. Something [01:26:20] different has to happen. I mean, you’re standing on a stage presenting a lecture. You might as well be on the on [01:26:25] the other end of a computer in California presenting a lecture, you know. Um, but what [01:26:30] are your reflections on the course, the Dental course itself. Um, and. [01:26:35]

Tara Renton: It’s, it’s a frustration because, um, like a lot of people, I, and [01:26:40] again. I’ve heard you talk about this on previous podcasts. Um, I [01:26:45] don’t think they, the Dental students come out ready cooked. I mean, there’s more and more, more and more [01:26:50] emphasis on I mean, they’re, they’re, they’re just psychologically, they’re [01:26:55] an interesting generation. Obviously, I’ve got three kids, so they’re very anxious about things, very [01:27:00] self-critical, very fearful of doing anything wrong.

Payman Langroudi: Especially this this generation, anxious, [01:27:05] high achievers, the ones because dentistry is much harder to get into now.

Tara Renton: Well, and that arguably [01:27:10] I would just say that. Are we selecting the right people? I think we need empathic listeners. [01:27:15]

Payman Langroudi: Empathic carpenters.

Tara Renton: Yes. Well, not just that, but but no, you [01:27:20] it’s the empathy is the most important thing. And I think about being patient. I mean, my [01:27:25] whole career has been patient centred and very, very patient centred. And I just think actually [01:27:30] a better qualification for people coming into healthcare would be that they volunteer or they [01:27:35] do a year, not national service, but a year working and helping in a hospital or an old people’s [01:27:40] home or kids nursery.

Payman Langroudi: It’s one of the requirements.

Tara Renton: I would love that to [01:27:45] happen. I’ve been saying that for years. I think that would tell us more and also would tell the kids more whether [01:27:50] they actually made for that particular, you know, and you need a variety [01:27:55] of people. You need a variety of people to make up a team. But dentistry, as in general, dental practice [01:28:00] is very much you and the dental nurse. Yeah. Um, whereas in other domains [01:28:05] of working in a dental team, multidisciplinary teams, you need [01:28:10] different personalities. You need someone who’s going to make sure the T’s are crossed and the i’s are dotted.

Payman Langroudi: But if [01:28:15] you, if you were queen of the world and you could redesign the dental course, which bits would [01:28:20] you take out to to include these bits that you want to put in?

Tara Renton: I think I’d take [01:28:25] out quite a lot and put a lot more.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so, so [01:28:30] the traditional, like, would you take out things like biochemistry? I would, I.

Tara Renton: Would love I, [01:28:35] I think at the element of that definitely. Yeah, I would love to see dentists. You know, one of [01:28:40] my ambitions, which never came to fruition was I’m very jealous of Richard’s new development, I have [01:28:45] to say, is.

Payman Langroudi: Is.

Tara Renton: To have like a 1012 surgery high street [01:28:50] unit that teaches students and postgrads. [01:28:55]

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Tara Renton: Um, and, and one day it’s pros, one day it’s oral surgery, one day [01:29:00] you can still do this.

Payman Langroudi: You could still do this.

Tara Renton: I’d love, I’d love to do I think oral surgery is so [01:29:05] stressful and so difficult for the students. That whole concept of. And it’s a horrible [01:29:10] thing to do what we do to our patients. I started saying, as dentists, you know, we’re, as [01:29:15] you say, dealing with patients who don’t want to see us. They know they’re going to get pain. [01:29:20] The trigeminal nerve basically has a one way, one ticket transfer [01:29:25] to the limbic system. So if you’re in threat of having pain to this area [01:29:30] or having painted this area. Your brain is like.

Payman Langroudi: It’s.

Tara Renton: On fire.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: And [01:29:35] that’s what we do in dentistry. We work in the try the most difficult nerve in the whole body. That’s [01:29:40] basically amplifying all the stress and everything going on in our head related [01:29:45] to pain. And we just we do it on awake patients. I mean, [01:29:50] did that happen because of barber surgeons? Barber surgeons took out teeth. Dentists [01:29:55] invented GA and let them blooming surgeons run away with the GA. So all these fancy surgeons just [01:30:00] operate on the sleep people. I know there’s it’s changing, thank goodness. And that’s partly due to chronic pain [01:30:05] actually, because we know that a lot of the post-surgical chronic pain, neuropathic [01:30:10] pain is actually probably to do with central sensitisation. So if you get very, [01:30:15] very intense pain transmission to the brain, particularly the para ductal grace just [01:30:20] sits below the amygdala, that area sensitised. And that probably has a memory of pain. So if [01:30:25] you block it with local anaesthetic like we do in dentistry doesn’t happen. So if you go and have [01:30:30] breast surgery, limb surgery, still big enough anatomical areas, you [01:30:35] can’t block it off with local. But the anaesthetist will give strategic local anaesthetic.

Payman Langroudi: For that reason.

Tara Renton: To [01:30:40] minimise chronic pain. Isn’t that fantastic? They’re taking a lesson out of dentist. We do that for years. You [01:30:45] know, I would argue that a lot of stuff we do, patients should be sedated. I don’t think it’s [01:30:50] fair. A lot of the stuff we do that they’re awake. But going back to the, to to rearranging dentistry, [01:30:55] I think a lot of it should be like my grandpa did more of an apprenticeship. Still think you [01:31:00] need the academic knowledge, not to the extent of forays [01:31:05] or four nines or whatever it is these days. I don’t think you’re selecting the right people. I [01:31:10] did actually.

Payman Langroudi: You must have been on the selection board for some time now. Um, you [01:31:15] know, getting.

Tara Renton: Specialists never, never for undergraduates. Oh, really? Yeah. Too busy teaching [01:31:20] and doing the research. I mean, the whole system is ridiculous at university because the [01:31:25] kudos and the money comes with the research. Still not with the teachings, the teachings. Always trying [01:31:30] to get the patients in, trying to deal with the NHS managers who say we can’t be arsed having the [01:31:35] dental students in. They don’t do enough work. We’re basically giving away our our salary, our [01:31:40] income. They don’t want. So you’re fighting all these levels that are running. The undergraduate program was [01:31:45] so stressful because you want more patients in. You want your students doing stuff. [01:31:50] These wonderful people who come in and give up their salary in clinical practice to come and teach our salt [01:31:55] of the earth. Not appreciated, not dealt with very well. And [01:32:00] it’s such a frustration. So I would love it that you have a nice practice [01:32:05] where people want to be there, the teachers want to be there, and then they give the kids a good [01:32:10] time, good experience, and I’d love to see that. And I don’t think that happens an awful lot. I’m [01:32:15] quite cynical or critical about the haptic stuff, and I don’t think that prepares [01:32:20] people for dealing with patients. And as nearly every one of your [01:32:25] podcasts that I’ve listened to, it’s all about the patient. It’s all about the patient relationship. If things are going to go well, [01:32:30] you know, I shouldn’t say this. You know, if your patient loves you, you can do shit dentistry. [01:32:35] But that’s not what we’re advocating.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, but it’s important. Your patient can love you and you can do brilliant.

Tara Renton: And [01:32:40] you have a better day if you have your patients, your dental nurse liking you and your patients liking you. Yeah, you’re going to have a [01:32:45] much better day.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, exactly.

Tara Renton: So and that’s down to, you know, um.

Payman Langroudi: So, [01:32:50] so, so changing the course, you take out lots of the basic science I’m taking.

Tara Renton: I would.

Payman Langroudi: Do, you’d [01:32:55] put in a lot more on relationships.

Tara Renton: I’d put in a lot more face to face, hands on. [01:33:00]

Payman Langroudi: Work as well.

Tara Renton: Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: Communication.

Tara Renton: Absolutely. And psychology. [01:33:05]

Payman Langroudi: And I’d even say business, you know, like.

Tara Renton: Business should.

Payman Langroudi: Be the basics of business.

Tara Renton: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: I think it should [01:33:10] be in school, let alone dental school. Yeah. They should, they should talk. I was going through my daughter. [01:33:15] She’s she’s only at GCSE level. Yeah. Yeah. But you forget you know, GCSE maths [01:33:20] still quite hard. Like I couldn’t, I couldn’t remember how to do this stuff. I was going, yeah, [01:33:25] you know, differentiation or something. I remember the word.

Tara Renton: I gave up trying to help my kids with [01:33:30] their homework a long time ago.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I referred her to ChatGPT at me. But [01:33:35] but then but then this is what I’m saying, that going to quite complex mathematical sort of thing, but [01:33:40] no idea how to apply for a mortgage, like a life, like a very important.

Tara Renton: Life bank account.

Payman Langroudi: Open a bank [01:33:45] account, money in and money out, these sort of simple things, simple.

Tara Renton: Things. The education system [01:33:50] is not fit for purpose either.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, Elon’s got an idea. I’m calling him like he’s my best [01:33:55] friend. But Elon Musk got an idea of, you know, in schools you have sets.

Tara Renton: Yes. [01:34:00]

Payman Langroudi: But he’s talking about sets that you can move within years. So, for instance, [01:34:05] this nine year old could be in 14 year old physics class. But being [01:34:10] seven year old maths, not maths.

Tara Renton: He’d probably be I would have been kindergarten English [01:34:15] and like probably if I was lucky O-level maths. But yeah, no, I [01:34:20] get that.

Payman Langroudi: So you wrote all these papers. How did you get over your English and dyslexia [01:34:25] and all that to write papers?

Tara Renton: My husband still jokes about champion, not [01:34:30] shampoo paper, what I wrote. It’s my first ever publication. Oh [01:34:35] my God, it was hard. Looking at a blank piece of paper is the most difficult thing. [01:34:40]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: Um, and I, but I’m a massive reader now as well. I love reading, [01:34:45] which I, you know, I never did before, but I love reading.

Payman Langroudi: While we’re on it, what’s your favourite book?

Tara Renton: Uh, [01:34:50] my favourite book would be Patrick Suskind perfume.

Payman Langroudi: Which is a.

Tara Renton: Novel. [01:34:55] It’s a novel. Yeah. I do like quite dark, dark things. [01:35:00] So, um. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And what about your favourite Dental book?

Tara Renton: Favourite [01:35:05] Dental book? Well, I love Dental update. Oh, yeah. Not just because I’m on the editorial [01:35:10] board. Because actually, because I don’t do routine dentistry. I love reading those articles and I love [01:35:15] the editorial board meeting. They’re the best people. They’re the best and.is there as well. Such [01:35:20] talented people.

Payman Langroudi: Just.

Tara Renton: Just Leaders o. But also leaders in their fields are so [01:35:25] inspiring. So I love that because it’s just nice for me to understand, you know, it’s [01:35:30] so technical and so, so different than what I was taught.

Payman Langroudi: You on social media.

Tara Renton: Yes, I am. [01:35:35]

Payman Langroudi: Instagram and all that.

Tara Renton: I am, yeah, but not as you know me. So Instagram is [01:35:40] all stuff that I make. Oh, really creative stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Okay. And what do you [01:35:45] make?

Tara Renton: Oh. All sorts. I’ll make anything. I love a project. Always like a project. [01:35:50] So the last thing I made was my two mad Scottish friends who had us around for [01:35:55] New Year’s Eve dinner party. They loved dressing up and, um, [01:36:00] they have these mad selection of, of Christmas hats like turkey upside down [01:36:05] and all sorts of things. And I thought I had some fabric left over because I make these [01:36:10] really ornate Christmas stockings for gifts for people when I’m in the mood. And I had this fabric left over and [01:36:15] I thought, actually, I could make them some really good crowns. So I made these fantastic crowns for them, for Lindsay and Nigel, [01:36:20] and they were great. But anything I can make jewellery. I made my husband’s [01:36:25] wedding ring. I made cufflinks, make jewellery, make clothes, [01:36:30] pay my, pay my way through dental school, making evening dresses and party dresses for [01:36:35] the 80s.

Payman Langroudi: If Etsy was around back then, you’d be a millionaire.

Tara Renton: I would have been killed. I would have not done dentistry. I would have [01:36:40] walked away. I doubt it somehow.

Payman Langroudi: And did you ever get involved in sort of the digital [01:36:45] side of dentistry, or. I guess.

Tara Renton: I have.

Payman Langroudi: Just not.

Tara Renton: The web app is, I suppose.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: No. [01:36:50] So yeah, my sort of chosen course would be probably, well, more psychology [01:36:55] because I love it, but um, MIT in health, I’d love to do a course sort of around [01:37:00] AI and health.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so listening to you now, I feel like just [01:37:05] endless curiosities, like a massive, massive, like [01:37:10] it’s a, it’s a prerequisite to becoming someone like you.

Tara Renton: I think it [01:37:15] helps. It makes the journey much more fun.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: Um, yeah. No, [01:37:20] I think it’s a very, very cool thing I would say actually, and just interested in lots of things. And I [01:37:25] belong to the RSPB. I’ve just been to India. My husband’s involved in tiger conservation. [01:37:30] So big animal lovers and um, love nature. [01:37:35] I cycle every morning in Richmond Park when I can, so I have my own safari every morning. All [01:37:40] the birds.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful.

Tara Renton: Took a video of the stags this morning, crossing the road in front of me.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:37:45] what did you say was the lowest point? Was it this bullying part incident, like [01:37:50] in this 40 year journey?

Tara Renton: Yes. Um, I was sexually [01:37:55] abused. 11. That was pretty tough. Didn’t tell my mum until about five years [01:38:00] ago. That was horrible. And that’s probably part of my personality as well, just [01:38:05] digging my way out of that. So that was pretty awful. Um, and [01:38:10] then yeah, the bullying at at that, that particular job was tough actually.

Payman Langroudi: Did you feel [01:38:15] like one mirrored the other? Like in your head?

Tara Renton: Uh.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes [01:38:20] does, you know, like sometimes.

Tara Renton: The one I wasn’t there out of choice. And the second [01:38:25] one, the bullying scenario I was going to into work every day. So some submissive, [01:38:30] you know, submitting to this horrible behaviour. So that’s slightly different. And that [01:38:35] made it harder in a way. Um, yeah. So yeah, no sort [01:38:40] of character building as my mom says, tough, tough love.

Payman Langroudi: If you like. So [01:38:45] then now going forward, basically retired, but [01:38:50] you’re working. You’re working. Yeah. On, on the legal side and.

Tara Renton: Uh, not doing much. I’d [01:38:55] love to do more. I’d love to do more medical legal actually. So I’m just, um, um, [01:39:00] involved in writing an opinion paper, uh, for the BDJ [01:39:05] on the, uh, Winterbottom case. Yeah, yeah. Um, and I’ve got [01:39:10] Irish is involved and he honestly, he’s been through the wringer and he. It’s completely. [01:39:15] Judgement seems very odd. Doesn’t seem right. So [01:39:20] I’m very, very interested in exploring that from a clinical and legal perspective. [01:39:25] So Linda Cruz is doing that with us. Excellent. That’s something I want to pursue. Again, I’d love [01:39:30] when I retired I thought I might do a law degree actually. Really. I don’t I’m not I’m [01:39:35] not a thing. I’m going to do that.

Payman Langroudi: There’s that course at Cardiff that’s like law for doctors or [01:39:40] something like that.

Tara Renton: I might look into that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: I find it fascinating because they think in such a different way. [01:39:45] Yeah, yeah. Totally different way. So I’m not sure I get.

Payman Langroudi: Some of the most impressive professionals I’ve come across are lawyers. [01:39:50]

Tara Renton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Some of the most annoying as well. Yeah. Some of the most impressive.

Tara Renton: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, [01:39:55] yeah, I’ve noticed that along the way. Yeah. So do you, do you miss the rough [01:40:00] and tumble or are you.

Tara Renton: I miss the I miss my team at work. Yeah. Not seeing them, I [01:40:05] miss operating. Yeah. Um. I’m still seeing patients. That’s still a challenge. I’m [01:40:10] still Invited all over the world to. Lecture won’t be going on for much longer because I won’t be [01:40:15] current for much longer. Um. I’m still. I’m writing a paper for [01:40:20] BMJ Practical Neurology. So breaking down the silos around facial [01:40:25] pain, teaching neurologists about toothache, basically. Um, I’ve [01:40:30] got a load of I help still. I’ve got two clinical fellows who want to do PhDs. [01:40:35] I can’t supervise them, sadly. Crazy thing. Retire, return [01:40:40] only you’re only allowed to return for two years at King’s. I mean, the different universities have different [01:40:45] regulations. I’d love to be doing more. You know, I wouldn’t be charging them anything like free [01:40:50] pro-bono. No, no.

Payman Langroudi: No, not even that.

Tara Renton: No, no. Can’t do [01:40:55] it. I don’t know the regulations.

Payman Langroudi: People like.

Tara Renton: I don’t I obviously don’t want people hanging around [01:41:00] like a bad smell. And I’m very aware of that. I don’t want to do that either. You know, I really don’t. I want to [01:41:05] not hang around and be one of those people in the room think, oh God, he’s still here.

Payman Langroudi: What comes [01:41:10] to mind if I ask you? Like, what was the lecture? Or a lecturer? Yes, that [01:41:15] that blew you away.

Tara Renton: Um. Probably two. So when I was a dental [01:41:20] student, um, we had, uh, Mark Ferguson, I think it was who did the, um, [01:41:25] discovered that crocodiles in utero didn’t scar when they repaired their cleft lip and palate. [01:41:30] I know it’s weird, but I love that. Yeah. And then my probably seminal lecture was [01:41:35] listening to Irene Tracy, who’s now provost or vice provost at Oxford [01:41:40] University. She is a pharmacist, but did some of the seminal work around [01:41:45] pain perception using MRIs, which is where I ended up. I was hoping to work with her, [01:41:50] but she never came to London and we nearly did. Um, but I’ve done a huge amount of MRI work, [01:41:55] and on that front, I’m very much involved in developing MRI neurography. [01:42:00] So we can see nerves for the first time in imaging, which is very exciting.

Payman Langroudi: How does [01:42:05] that work?

Tara Renton: It’s basically clever mathematicians. So basically you have an MRI. [01:42:10] Um, just a normal MRI, which is fantastic. But what you do is you have a [01:42:15] specific coil that actually, um, accentuates the concentration [01:42:20] of the, of the MRI in those areas. And um, Frederick van [01:42:25] de Crusnes, one of my star PhD students, I’ve had 14 PhD students over the years. They’re all my work [01:42:30] babies. They’re amazing. He, he developed this. And you can actually see all the cranial [01:42:35] nerves on an image. So and you can see if the, for example, lingual nerve is broken, if [01:42:40] it’s swollen, if it’s hyperintensive inflamed. So we’re just developing that first in Manhattan [01:42:45] at King’s at the moment. So they’ve got it up and running in a few centres in the in the US [01:42:50] and a couple of centres in Belgium. But first here, which is really exciting. [01:42:55] So that’s a project that I will not let go because I just think it’s fascinating. It’s going to be a whole new science. [01:43:00] And we’ve never looked at nerves before, never been able to do ophthalmologists, headache [01:43:05] neurologists. They are gagging for this stuff.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s.

Tara Renton: Fantastic. Cancer surgery [01:43:10] planning. It’s amazing. Um, and what the clever guys. So so basically [01:43:15] the and we also use contrast. So gadolinium, which helps obviously [01:43:20] visualise the nerves. Um, so what you can see is and what they’ve done is they’ve basically sort of refined [01:43:25] the, the mathematical algorithms. So you can actually differentiate nerve tissue from fat. Um, [01:43:30] and obviously water content for other arteries and bits and pieces. So the scans [01:43:35] are developing that I’m working with the team at um Slam or um, IOP [01:43:40] in the Institute of Psychiatry Psychology. They’ve got a big central neuroscience neuroscience imaging [01:43:45] centre there, which is where I’ve done most of my research. So blessed, such interesting people, [01:43:50] so clever. And they’re basically developing an MRI scan that could do [01:43:55] bone arteries and nerve. So it’s really super exciting. So that’s one of the projects. My web app [01:44:00] is a big project. Um, I’d love to commercialise that. So it can actually be just take [01:44:05] a psych assessment of patients before you see them. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Should do that. [01:44:10]

Tara Renton: I’d love to do that.

Payman Langroudi: If it works, then the next step to do that I’d love to do that.

Tara Renton: And [01:44:15] then because I, one of my heartbreaking things around seeing patients for these many, many [01:44:20] years is delayed or wrong diagnosis. So many patients sit around some [01:44:25] unfortunately, with cancer, not too many, thank God. But then people, you know, they’ve had [01:44:30] all this dental work and they’ve actually got a migraine of v3 mandibular branch or maxillary [01:44:35] branch, or they’ve got a cluster headache type thing going on. Um. [01:44:40]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I spoke to someone.

Tara Renton: So many patients.

Payman Langroudi: Who said, you’re a dentist. I said, yeah, and [01:44:45] he said, I’ve got to ask you about this thing. Uh, trigeminal neuralgia.

Tara Renton: Everyone knows about neuralgia. [01:44:50] It’s the least common facial pain.

Payman Langroudi: So I said, yeah, what do you want to know? And he said, [01:44:55] I went through 12 years of going through different doctors until [01:45:00] someone said, this is what it is.

Tara Renton: And it was.

Payman Langroudi: Ten. It was ten, [01:45:05] and it had an operation to resect MVD.

Tara Renton: But [01:45:10] one of the few indications for surgery and.

Payman Langroudi: A tear came to his eye when he mentioned the name of the guy [01:45:15] who finally figured it out, you know. Yeah, yeah.

Tara Renton: No TN is we do see [01:45:20] it’s the least common diagnosis that we make very, very life impactful for [01:45:25] patients.

Payman Langroudi: Because the pain is severe. Right?

Tara Renton: Well, the pain is severe. You get either elicited or spontaneous. [01:45:30] Often around this area. It’s probably sodium. It’s inherited and [01:45:35] 18% of patients really onset spontaneous starts, usually 5060 year [01:45:40] olds. Yeah. Sort of almost equal distribution men and women. Um, and [01:45:45] uh, haven’t found the cause yet. Mvd basically peels of an artery [01:45:50] or a, or a vein off the stem of the nerve as it comes out, but still, we don’t really [01:45:55] understand how that works. But it’s the most effective treatment after medical treatment initially. Mhm. But if [01:46:00] you’re a pilot or a HGV driver. You can’t tolerate the medications because they just slow you down, slow [01:46:05] your responses. So but that’s I think that’s pretty well treated. There’s a guy called Cruccu [01:46:10] in Italy who’s the lead. He’s done some exceptional work around TN. So I think it’d [01:46:15] be unusual now. I mean all medics know about TN because they remember the trigeminal neuralgia case on their neurosurgery [01:46:20] ward round. So that’s the only oral facial pain that most medics know about. They all know about it. [01:46:25] And that’s frustrating to me because all that gets it’s always TNTNTN. But actually toothache [01:46:30] can mimic migraines, can mimic TN, can mimic all sorts of different conditions. [01:46:35] And then obviously post-traumatic neuropathy, nerve injuries is a biggie. Much bigger and [01:46:40] bigger than TN because you have you touch it, you get electric shock, you get mechanical allodynia or [01:46:45] thermal allodynia, which is a feature of that, of that condition. So that’s often misdiagnosed [01:46:50] as well. What about. So that’s what the web apps come about, is to try and develop a sort [01:46:55] of diagnostic app that will direct patients either to neurologists or to a dentist [01:47:00] or to ENT so they don’t end up going to an ENT surgeon having sinus washout and septal [01:47:05] deviation correction, and then being told that they’ve got, you know, cluster headache or going to [01:47:10] the neurologist and having five years of, of headache medication when they’ve actually got, you [01:47:15] know, tooth or embedded carious wisdom tooth that no one’s picked up on and [01:47:20] a long cone periapical.

Payman Langroudi: So is the least common. What’s the most common migraine?

Tara Renton: Migraine [01:47:25] is very, very common. So and migraine always generally in [01:47:30] most patients affects v1, v2, v3.

Payman Langroudi: All the way down.

Tara Renton: It does. And we forget that. [01:47:35] And there’s an increasing number of patients now that come to us who’ve got misdiagnosed pain. And actually [01:47:40] it’s migraine. So you can actually screen that’s part of our screening. It’s hit six. You can screen out migraines [01:47:45] very, very easily and find out if there are migraine.

Payman Langroudi: And has has bruxism increased. [01:47:50] And TMJ.

Tara Renton: Is not a pain condition and bruxism.

Payman Langroudi: Is not.

Tara Renton: There’s really good evidence [01:47:55] now that bruxism does not drive muscle pain and.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really, really, really.

Tara Renton: So, you know, we’ve had patients [01:48:00] where they’ve got no teeth, like one millimetre of tooth tissue above their gingival level. Yeah. [01:48:05] No pain.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Tara Renton: So bruxism, there’s two there’s awake and sleep, bruxism, sleep [01:48:10] bruxism. Nocturnal bruxism, bruxism. Increasingly. Another inspirational lecture. [01:48:15] Danny. Danny Eccles. He’s a sleep [01:48:20] physician researcher. Adelaide. Incredible. And [01:48:25] um, his work is international based but they basically [01:48:30] showing that actually nocturnal bruxism is an activity that coincides with periodic [01:48:35] limb movements. So restless leg syndrome at night. Yeah. And actually it’s all to do with the arousal [01:48:40] phase of sleep. So it’s a neuromuscular phenomenon. It’s not stress. [01:48:45] Oh really? Yeah. And actually what you need to do, how you I mean stopping [01:48:50] restless leg syndrome. It’s the same old drugs we use for a lot of chronic pain conditions, relaxant, muscle relaxant drugs. [01:48:55] But actually you just need to protect the teeth and reassure the patient. Daytime [01:49:00] I definitely clench is probably stress related, but it doesn’t drive [01:49:05] pain.

Payman Langroudi: So to that, that bit of information that I have is, I guess, old information. [01:49:10]

Tara Renton: It is. I think it’s coming through. I mean, the other thing that’s very interesting as well, that I’ve published quite [01:49:15] a bit on recently is myogenous TMD. So muscle based jaw joint pain, a [01:49:20] lot of that is migraine.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really?

Tara Renton: So you need to and again, [01:49:25] it’s something dentists should be doing routinely is if the patients presenting with a pain [01:49:30] just say, do you get headaches? Do you get migraines? And they know most patients will know [01:49:35] if they have a history or they currently get intermittent migraines.

Payman Langroudi: So much of it is going into that [01:49:40] functional medicine kind of that’s.

Tara Renton: Where.

Payman Langroudi: We should be interaction. That’s where we should be. Mouth body connection. [01:49:45] I wouldn’t expect that from someone coming from, you know, oral surgery, you know, but [01:49:50] you’re very much everything you’ve said is in that sort of.

Tara Renton: It is that’s where we need to be. [01:49:55] That’s the whole place we need to be to optimise the treatment for our patients. And [01:50:00] and that’s not what’s being taught, sadly. And it’s so much more interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:50:05] it’s very interesting. It’s very interesting. It’s been a massive pleasure to have you, professor. [01:50:10] Stay awake. Dame. Stop it. Please [01:50:15] don’t do that. Can I can I finish off with the usual questions where you ask the fantasy [01:50:20] dinner party? Three guests, dead or alive. Who are you having?

Tara Renton: Um, [01:50:25] I’ve got no name. Uh, so, um, [01:50:30] Atul Gawande, who’s the medic? The Indian American medic who was Obama’s medical [01:50:35] adviser, who’s done a huge amount around lots and lots of areas, [01:50:40] but he was Mr. Checklist. He was one of the first people to introduce the W.H.O. [01:50:45] checklist, which is now surpassed. But it’s I think it’s entered the culture of most.

Payman Langroudi: It speaks very [01:50:50] well as well.

Tara Renton: He’s a fantastic speaker. Yeah. Um, I think he was on, um, [01:50:55] Rory Stewart, wasn’t he? Uh, Campbell and Stewart.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. That’s right, that’s right, that’s right. Politics. [01:51:00] Politics. Leading. Leading. Yeah.

Tara Renton: He’s really good. Um. And then [01:51:05] I wrote an actress name down and I’ve had a mental block now.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what was she in? [01:51:10]

Tara Renton: She was a jungle queen. Um, she was a sort of kick [01:51:15] ass woman. Didn’t take any prisoners. We were going back to the 1950s movies. I grew [01:51:20] up, my dad was a great movie buff. Um, Katharine Hepburn.

Payman Langroudi: Katharine Hepburn loved her. Okay.

Tara Renton: Trousers. [01:51:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tara Renton: Did her own thing, but in a nice way. Um, and [01:51:30] then, um, who else would I invite? [01:51:35] I mean, I don’t think Elon Musk would be. He is phenomenal. I don’t like him. He’s [01:51:40] not a nice person, but he’s phenomenal.

Payman Langroudi: He is I think on the net net you have to say he’s an asset. I [01:51:45] mean.

Tara Renton: Yeah I think I’d agree.

Payman Langroudi: With you. He could be a Nazi whatever whatever he is a right winger, [01:51:50] whatever he is. But if you look at what he’s done, you’ve got to say it’s so impressive. [01:51:55] Humanity’s moved forward. Yeah.

Tara Renton: It’s so impressive. And he talks about his busy. [01:52:00] I have a busy brain, which is why, you know, I don’t I have I don’t have when someone, a couple of people [01:52:05] have asked me if I have therapy and I’ve never done that, but I say my bicycles, my therapy. And [01:52:10] I learned that, you know, with long time back when really busy family [01:52:15] look back, I just can’t believe what we did, you know, spinning all those plates and doing everything. But [01:52:20] the one thing I did was I bought a second hand Brompton bike on eBay because [01:52:25] I was frustrated. I was getting no exercise. And it basically meant I could take it [01:52:30] everywhere and I could cycle between meetings, cycle to work as much as I could cycle home. And honestly, [01:52:35] I could have the shittiest day from hell. Want to kill everyone? Get on [01:52:40] the bike. Five minutes cycling from Denmark Hill to Vauxhall.

Payman Langroudi: Solve [01:52:45] it.

Tara Renton: And that’s what I learned. Actually. That’s probably.

Payman Langroudi: Some [01:52:50] lime bikes for that, but.

Tara Renton: No lime bikes.

Payman Langroudi: Even though there’s not much work going on. No, no. The [01:52:55] speed of acceleration. Yeah. No, but you’re right. And in winter it’s [01:53:00] harder, isn’t it? Yeah. In winter I don’t use them as much. No. And actually feel it, [01:53:05] you know. Oh do you. And somehow I make a point. You use 2 or 3 a day. Yeah. I’ll cycle here. [01:53:10] Cycle back, cycle wherever. I should make.

Tara Renton: A point of doing it more.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: As I say in Norway, it’s not the [01:53:15] wrong weather. It’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Wrong place. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Tara Renton: Very much. I cycle snow, rain, everything. [01:53:20]

Payman Langroudi: You do, you.

Tara Renton: Get out. I love it, it just makes me feel.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. There is something.

Tara Renton: A dose of mindfulness. [01:53:25] Nature. Get home and I’m ready for the rest of the day. I love it so I don’t [01:53:30] I think Elon needs to do probably more cycling. I don’t know. He’d be less productive if he does more cycling. But it’d [01:53:35] be interesting to sit next to someone with that much of a busy brain, or maybe a bit of a misogynist, I don’t [01:53:40] know. I’ve had enough of those in my life, but.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got a deathbed question.

Tara Renton: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Lying [01:53:45] on your deathbed, surrounded by your dearest and [01:53:50] nearest and dearest many years from now. What three pieces of advice would you [01:53:55] leave for them and for the world?

Tara Renton: Stay curious. Probably? Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: That [01:54:00] seems.

Tara Renton: Clear. That’s my biggest joy. Um. Priorities. [01:54:05] Prioritise your friends and family. I’ve got eight girlfriends. [01:54:10] I wouldn’t be here sitting here now without my amazing husband. Three [01:54:15] kids. I’m incredibly proud of that. I haven’t fucked up completely. Um, [01:54:20] and the girlfriends we’ve seen each other through.

Payman Langroudi: Which era are they from? From [01:54:25] school, university, or.

Tara Renton: A couple I’ve known for 40 years.

Payman Langroudi: Uh huh.

Tara Renton: Um. Uh, [01:54:30] yeah, about half over half of them I’ve known for 38, [01:54:35] 40 years. And then there’s a few new add ons that we met at antenatal [01:54:40] with our Firstborn’s 33, 33 years. I can’t believe I’m saying [01:54:45] that.

Payman Langroudi: There’s nothing like old friends. Nothing like old friends.

Tara Renton: So friends and family, I think, are really, [01:54:50] really up there. Curiosity. And I would say, stick to your guns. [01:54:55] If there’s if you’re principled, if I look back and think, I could have made some really dumb [01:55:00] decisions, like not doing medicine, I didn’t do it. I was right, I was very lucky because [01:55:05] oral surgery came in, you know, and then I. Yeah, no, stick to your [01:55:10] guns, you know, you know, know who you are. And, and if you have a goal, [01:55:15] just, just keep at it. And if you keep hitting a brick wall, just walk around that wall. Find a way [01:55:20] around that wall.

Payman Langroudi: What do you wish you were more like.

Tara Renton: Uh, [01:55:25] my husband.

Payman Langroudi: In what sense?

Tara Renton: Calm. Kind. [01:55:30]

Payman Langroudi: You seem calm.

Tara Renton: I am calm.

Payman Langroudi: You seem kind.

Tara Renton: I am kind.

Payman Langroudi: Um. [01:55:35] What is it? What is it you’re bad at? You know. That’s what I’m getting at.

Tara Renton: I think I, I have [01:55:40] I can have the element of irritating people. I don’t mean hating people. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: In [01:55:45] what sense?

Tara Renton: Um, there’s a family joke really that I, you know, I’m ADHD [01:55:50] and. Yeah, I’m a bit busy. Mrs. [01:55:55] McHenry.

Payman Langroudi: From.

Tara Renton: Magic Roundabout. So yeah, probably. But [01:56:00] then that’s part of my charm, I guess. A lot of people tell me, I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the [01:56:05] thing is, you could say I wish I was better at politicking in I guess. Yeah, [01:56:10] but but but the charm of it is that you’re not.

Tara Renton: Yeah, I guess so. Well, it’s it’s not [01:56:15] served me too badly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: And I’d be a very different person if I was better at that kind [01:56:20] of stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly, exactly.

Tara Renton: Probably be nice just to have a little tiny bit of commercial [01:56:25] DNA.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah.

Tara Renton: Yeah, yeah. Because I really haven’t.

Payman Langroudi: That sounds like your husband’s got that [01:56:30] in spades.

Tara Renton: He. Yes. He has.

Payman Langroudi: So you should do a project together. You should do this teaching centre.

Tara Renton: I’d [01:56:35] love to do it together. Well, I was just. I ring up Richard Porter and just say, [01:56:40] do you want your oral surgery or a facial pain I love. I’d [01:56:45] love to train oral facial pain. Do you know, I get a lot of people asking me about doing special. There’s [01:56:50] no speciality in oral facial pain. Yeah, but I think it would be a fantastic thing if certain dentists are interested. [01:56:55] I think you do your dentistry for 4 or 5 days a week, and then you do one day speciality, [01:57:00] and that would be make an awful lot of sense for for, you know, maintaining interest. [01:57:05]

Payman Langroudi: So this is something I want to go into at this thing at ministry, right? Is the question of [01:57:10] should I specialise or should I go on Richard Porter’s course? Yes. [01:57:15] Or for the sake of the argument, Frank spear or yes or whatever. [01:57:20] But you know, should I specialise? And the other question, which speciality should I do? [01:57:25] Because I think oral surgery. I say all surgeries, one on its own in a way. [01:57:30] But for me, when I when a young dentist ask me which, which one should I do? I’m [01:57:35] not sure which one I like the most. I’m going to do whichever one. Yeah. Like get very good at anything. [01:57:40] Yeah. And you’ll enjoy it. Outside of. Also, I’d say all surgery and max facts and blood [01:57:45] and flaps and bone. Some people are made for that, and some people just don’t want to [01:57:50] go anywhere near that.

Tara Renton: And I understand that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But whether it’s.

Tara Renton: A lot of people do.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. A lot of people [01:57:55] do. A lot of people do.

Tara Renton: And it’s incredibly rewarding.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the thing we don’t have anymore is that, you know, the failed [01:58:00] medic syndrome. Yes. Because it’s just as hard to get into dentistry as to get into medicine.

Tara Renton: Well, it’s. [01:58:05]

Payman Langroudi: Harder. It’s harder in my day that that was the thing. Yeah. It was you couldn’t quite get into [01:58:10] medicine then that you came to dentistry. And then then and then those guys end up becoming Max fac surgeons because [01:58:15] they wanted to be doctors. For me, you said it for me.

Tara Renton: I was biting my tongue, which is very [01:58:20] unusual, which is not a great that’s not a great solution. No, it’s [01:58:25] not a great professional way to select your future career. Yeah. No, I think and it’s not. And, [01:58:30] you know, saying that now it’s and [01:58:35] the part of the reason I originally chose dentistry is I know that I, I knew that I could work [01:58:40] in a practice for one or 2 or 3 days a week and do whatever I wanted to do. The other [01:58:45] time. So I think there’s that pressure of I think the kids put themselves under a lot of pressure. [01:58:50] They want to be Instagram influencers. They want to be this. They probably want to prefer to be that than actually [01:58:55] doing a lot of the dentistry, to be fair, which is a shame for the patients. Um, [01:59:00] but I think it’s not just about pleasing. [01:59:05] I think there’s so much out there, like, well, like orofacial pain, there’s no speciality in orofacial pain. [01:59:10] There’s no speciality in lots of aspects of teeth whitening.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: No implants. Implants.

Payman Langroudi: Not going [01:59:15] with that. Should I specialise, should I go on a course? Should there be some sort of hybrid? Yeah. Which [01:59:20] is what you’re suggesting.

Tara Renton: I think it would be great.

Payman Langroudi: Like even even at one from institutions, you know, like [01:59:25] it could be that you could go. And I know it’s like a part time MSc. They have these things, right? [01:59:30] But but something where people could, could follow an interest.

Tara Renton: And have [01:59:35] a network, a supportive network.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: And that would be a UK wide. I mean, another [01:59:40] going back to undergraduate. Why don’t we have national curricula in orofacial pain? [01:59:45] You know, I heard you saying one of your podcasts about when you first qualified from Cardiff, [01:59:50] you went into BT and you had you could see that some people were really good at this, and [01:59:55] some people were really good at that and, you know, identified some of the weaknesses in your own training. Yeah. [02:00:00] I just think, actually, why aren’t we just. And that’s an argument for even the NHS as well, [02:00:05] when there’s all this good stuff happening, why aren’t we harnessing that and spreading the love? [02:00:10]

Payman Langroudi: Because we’re very slow to change. We’re very slow to change. But you’re form of the system, [02:00:15] right? Can you can you understand why we’re so slow to change?

Tara Renton: Well, I think one of the [02:00:20] problems, like talking about ID blocks and, and, and diagnosing TN, we’re [02:00:25] still doing the same stuff we were taught at dental school.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but look, your kids are in, you know, it [02:00:30] data science, AI changing weekly.

Tara Renton: Yes, but I’m just.

Payman Langroudi: Saying those industries [02:00:35] are very quick to change, but Dental medical.

Tara Renton: But they’re still teaching the same stuff I was taught [02:00:40] at dental school and that’s wrong. It’s mad and it’s wrong. It’s completely wrong and it’s not [02:00:45] fit for purpose. And I feel sorry for the kids for that because they’re already predisposed to anxiety. [02:00:50] They don’t have their confidence is not built up enough, I think, [02:00:55] and their interpersonal skills, they don’t know who they are.

Payman Langroudi: How have you managed to navigate all [02:01:00] of this and keep such a like, smile on your face? Because [02:01:05] that’s I’d say that’s the the biggest success of your sort of career. Like we like meeting [02:01:10] you properly is that, you know, you know, a lot of people get jaded and [02:01:15] lost.

Tara Renton: I’m always well, it’s the curiosity and I’m always hoping for. I [02:01:20] feel most sorry for people that go to work and do the same thing over [02:01:25] and over again. Never question, never think about how they can make things better [02:01:30] for the patient. Go home and have dinner.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Tara Renton: That would be, for me, the worst possible [02:01:35] work life environment I would have. Yeah I [02:01:40] am. I have managed with grit and determination, [02:01:45] but mostly curiosity and energy to, you [02:01:50] know, identify something that seems like a really good idea. Changing practices impossible. [02:01:55] Like the guidelines and everything. You just get all these, you know, depending on their different personality disorders. [02:02:00] Yeah. And we can’t do this because of that. And we can’t do that. You know, the, the negative this and but yeah, [02:02:05] I think, I think if you’re patient centred, then that that is obvious. The choice [02:02:10] is obvious that actually that’s the right direction, the right factor. We go in.

Payman Langroudi: You know, [02:02:15] and you’ve, you’ve lectured all over the world. Are there different research [02:02:20] cultures.

Tara Renton: Oh my goodness. Different Dental cultures. Yeah. Different conference cultures.

Payman Langroudi: So for [02:02:25] instance, one, one thing I heard that the, the Chinese research is much more [02:02:30] centralised. And so much as they look at a big problem and direct all [02:02:35] the resources towards these big problems in university.

Tara Renton: Well, that’s what they do in [02:02:40] corporates and R&D and corporates. Yeah, exactly. It’s exactly the same process. It’s much more commercial.

Payman Langroudi: So where we’re [02:02:45] at with with universities is almost it’s almost like a passion projects of [02:02:50] or of course, there’s the, the funding side of it as well. Yeah, [02:02:55] I think the passion is an important part of it. Right. But do you think there should be more coordination like [02:03:00] UK wide, wide. We should coordinate research.

Tara Renton: Should be much less barriers, much less [02:03:05] silos. Yeah. And much more collaboration. Yeah. And I think that’s something [02:03:10] that’s probably one of my other skills. I was never frightened to Praveen Anand, [02:03:15] who’s a is a fantastic, godlike neurologist at [02:03:20] Hammersmith Hospital. He led the whole research into nerve growth factor [02:03:25] in diabetic neuropathy. Mega brain. I wanted to as part of my PhD, [02:03:30] I wanted to use this equipment. It’s called medic and it basically is quantitative sensory testing. [02:03:35] So you have, um, hot and cold and you look at different fibre types A-delta C fibre [02:03:40] and how they react and pick up the different thresholds. Anyway, this really [02:03:45] expensive machinery and the rep was really lovely penny. And she said, oh well Prof Adnan’s [02:03:50] got that at Hammersmith Hospital. And I said, well you know, she said, oh I’m [02:03:55] sure, I’m sure he’d let you see the equipment. So there’s me [02:04:00] and I, you know, I’ve never been backwards and coming forward, I will front up and take a [02:04:05] challenge. Um, and I, you know, I remember going to his clinic and I honestly, it felt [02:04:10] like I was in hyperspace. There was him, there was a very bright Peter [02:04:15] neurophysiologist from Queen’s Square. There was Rolf Birch, really famous orthopaedic [02:04:20] surgeon who first talked about brachial plexus syndrome and pain after orthopaedic surgery. He [02:04:25] used to wear a Deerstalker and a pipe. I was in this clinic. It was like surreal. [02:04:30] And I really probably fundamentally understood less than 2% [02:04:35] of the conversation. It’s like dumb blonde, you know? And I just but it [02:04:40] didn’t stop me, you know? And he was brilliant. He let me he persuaded [02:04:45] the company to lend me a machine for one of my PhD chapters. That’s that’s how [02:04:50] to be is not afraid to if you’re that curious in something and you’ve [02:04:55] got the energy and the drive, things are going to happen.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [02:05:00] it reminds me of one of my school friends. He’s become a world expert [02:05:05] at, uh, psychology.

Tara Renton: Oh, interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Fungus disease. [02:05:10] That he’s a doctor, but he’s become a real top guy in that. And he invited me to his professorial [02:05:15] lecture. And, um, honestly, slide two. [02:05:20] I was completely lost. Completely lost. And I thought I knew it. You know, I [02:05:25] thought I’d understand a few medical terms or.

Tara Renton: I’ve had so many.

Payman Langroudi: Experiences. Like I told [02:05:30] him. Slide two. I was I just couldn’t keep up. And he goes two. I [02:05:35] was like, and you know, when they’re in their own world, aren’t they for them? And there’s [02:05:40] other people in the room that they’re trying to impress or whatever they’re talking. He was talking so matter of fact [02:05:45] ish and I literally couldn’t keep up after slide two.

Tara Renton: And I’ll tell you the worst scenarios that you have [02:05:50] someone like that lecturing before you get up to lecture after them. Even worse. I felt like the village idiot [02:05:55] quite a few conferences. Like I’m obviously just there for the entertainment. I’m not really there for any kind of the [02:06:00] intellectual knowledge base.

Payman Langroudi: Place you’ve been.

Tara Renton: Oh golly, I’ve just been to the Andaman [02:06:05] Islands, which is very. The Andaman Islands are an archipelago [02:06:10] of islands, uh, east of India and west of Myanmar. [02:06:15] Oh, so they’re like. And if you follow the archipelago down, it becomes the Philippines. [02:06:20]

Payman Langroudi: Was it beautiful or Indonesia?

Tara Renton: Indonesia. Indonesia. Absolutely. Stunningly beautiful. [02:06:25] Impossibly difficult to get to.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. How’d you get there?

Tara Renton: By boat. Hardly [02:06:30] any European. You do? By boat, by plane, by plane, by plane, by boat. Um, [02:06:35] but absolutely, absolutely beautiful. Um, [02:06:40] did a bit of diving, which I haven’t done for ages.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful in the sort of the yellow sand, kind of beautiful. [02:06:45]

Tara Renton: Beautiful beach something. We lived in Australia for five years and I go back a lot. My kids have been based in Australia [02:06:50] on and off for eight years. So beautiful beaches, beautiful beaches, a beautiful beach. But [02:06:55] um, the you land there basically. Um, the north Andaman is [02:07:00] basically there’s over 300 islands and only um 23 are [02:07:05] inhabited and only three of the islands have tourists on. Oh, and when [02:07:10] you fly over it’s this dense tropical forest.

Payman Langroudi: Forest.

Tara Renton: And [02:07:15] most of these lovely islands you go to is like the Maldives. It’s like pretty flat. And they’ve got these beautiful [02:07:20] hills. But when you go and go into the forest, I’m not kidding you. It’s like something out of [02:07:25] Games of Thrones. These trees are like Norfolk pines [02:07:30] and thick trunks. Beautiful. They go up 20m [02:07:35] at least.

Payman Langroudi: So would you get on a boat and and go to these different islands? [02:07:40]

Tara Renton: You can you can visit different islands or you just stay on one of them. We were on Havelock Island. They’re [02:07:45] all named after old British officers. Um and um [02:07:50] I think they’re trying to change the names, but they haven’t got around to it yet.

Payman Langroudi: So they call the Andaman.

Tara Renton: Called the Andaman.

Payman Langroudi: Andaman [02:07:55] Islands.

Tara Renton: Andaman Islands. Yeah. So that’s probably and [02:08:00] it was on the back of going to one of Tony’s Tiger annual Tiger conference. So he’s involved [02:08:05] in tiger conservation. So it just combines all that lovely thing that he does, which is I’m [02:08:10] really proud of him that he does that. So that was a very, very special trip. Yeah. But [02:08:15] I mean I love Cornwall, so I spent my first few years in Cornwall. So probably [02:08:20] my favourite place on earth is Cool Sand beach.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Tara Renton: Yeah, that’s where my [02:08:25] ashes are going to be.

Payman Langroudi: Doesn’t feel like the rest of the UK, does it? It just feels like a different country.

Tara Renton: Where the people are [02:08:30] very different.

Payman Langroudi: People are different. It’s just different. Everything different. Different landscapes, different hilliness. [02:08:35] Yeah.

Tara Renton: I love it.

Payman Langroudi: There it is cool.

Tara Renton: The walks are great. The sea. Just [02:08:40] being in. I swim every day.

Payman Langroudi: Have you got a place there?

Tara Renton: My mum’s my mum’s house. Oh, your mum’s on the beach.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [02:08:45]

Tara Renton: The pub’s five foot outside the front door.

Payman Langroudi: And.

Tara Renton: The back, back gate goes onto [02:08:50] the beach. I don’t think there’s a better place on earth. I love it there.

Payman Langroudi: Good food and stuff as well. [02:08:55]

Tara Renton: Uh, it can be, it can be variable. But yeah, no, generally pretty good food. Excellent. Yeah. [02:09:00]

Payman Langroudi: It’s been such a massive pleasure and a real privilege to have you. So thank you so much for coming [02:09:05] all the way.

Tara Renton: My pleasure.

Payman Langroudi: Really, really enjoyed that and learned so much from you. I don’t your [02:09:10] mindset particularly is just such a such a beautiful way of looking at things, you know, like curious, [02:09:15] positive, um, uh, I always thought that was a young person’s [02:09:20] outlook, but it’s lovely to see someone continuous to be continuing to be that [02:09:25] way, you know, post retiring from all of your jobs.

Tara Renton: I think the family would like me just to kick off [02:09:30] the shoes. It’s never going to happen.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much for doing this.

Tara Renton: My absolute pleasure. Payman. [02:09:35] Thank you for the invitation.

Payman Langroudi: Pleasure.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, [02:09:40] the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [02:09:45] in dentistry. Your hosts Payman [02:09:50] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. [02:09:55] If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both [02:10:00] from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest [02:10:05] has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, [02:10:10] think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you think [02:10:15] might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six [02:10:20] star rating.

Payman Langroudi: Dental educational events need a shake up? I’m really happy to announce that we’ll be doing [00:00:05] a new event in June called The Minimalist Conference at Ministry of Sound, [00:00:10] where we’re going to have 30 speakers and two parties. It starts at 2:00 [00:00:15] and finishes at 2:00 as well on the 13th of June, which is Saturday. [00:00:20] Check out the website at minimalist dash dot dot [00:00:25] app, or check out the Instagram page at minimalist [00:00:30] dot join us.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:40] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [00:00:45] leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Mike grey onto the podcast. Mike is a. Legendary [00:01:00] is the best word I can find for it. Yeah yeah yeah. [00:01:05] I’ve got a degree of hero worship for you, man. Um, [00:01:10] they say never meet your heroes. But, you know, it’s a massive pleasure that you’ve come.

Mike Gray: Oh, no. It’s my [00:01:15] pleasure. Like I said, I. I think you got the wrong guy. Like I said, because it’s Dental Leaders [00:01:20] podcast and look at me, you know, but, uh, no absolute pleasure. And, uh, [00:01:25] yeah, it’s, uh, much respect for yourself as well and everything. Well, you [00:01:30] know, it’s, you’re a perfect person to speak to of life outside dentistry, [00:01:35] you know, because, uh, which is, and it’s awesome. And I think you don’t realise that [00:01:40] when you start dentistry, um, because you think, well, you know, I just have to drill people’s mouths and yet [00:01:45] you done all this, which is awesome.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very flexible, isn’t it? Dentistry that [00:01:50] my daughter’s thinking of going into it. Although these days you never know with, uh, robots [00:01:55] and you know what’s going to be like eight years time when she.

Mike Gray: Was working on it, aren’t they?

Payman Langroudi: Exactly. [00:02:00] I mean, the brain, definitely the the language model. And it’s time. It’s going to be the [00:02:05] super computer. Right. But then the only other thing is like, you know, the eyes and the hands. Yeah. And [00:02:10] you know, man, if they can’t make hands better than human hands in eight years time.

Mike Gray: Then when [00:02:15] Musk was on about it, I saw something the other day.

Payman Langroudi: He’s like, go to medical school. Yeah, I saw that.

Mike Gray: Well, it’s. [00:02:20] And it’s right. Yeah. I’d give that advice in this country for different reasons.

Payman Langroudi: But your mom’s [00:02:25] a doctor, right?

Mike Gray: Yeah. She is. She is. And she said, don’t do medicine. It’s 2004. [00:02:30] I went to university, so, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But you’ve got an amazing sort [00:02:35] of history insomuch as not only are you an expert at restorative dentistry, [00:02:40] some innovative stuff that I’ve seen you’re doing and teaching. Yeah. Um, around [00:02:45] minimally invasive stuff around full mouth stuff and surgical stuff. Yeah, yeah. Um, [00:02:50] photography. Yeah. But actually your journeys come through mountain [00:02:55] Biking at the highest level. Travelling the world. Doing that. [00:03:00] Yeah. Yeah. And a music career.

Mike Gray: Yeah. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: How did this.

Mike Gray: Career. [00:03:05] I shouldn’t say failed because I did I did all right. Yeah. Um. Yeah. And I [00:03:10] think I would say that’s a big strength in that just [00:03:15] from coming from those worlds. It means I approach things quite [00:03:20] different now. Um, so yeah, mountain biking, I did that. I’ve [00:03:25] always been two wheels, anything, two wheels, um, from about the age of ten. And, uh, I used to race [00:03:30] a race pretty much professionally. I raced over the World Series over three [00:03:35] different disciplines like downhill, which is getting from the top of the mountain to the bottom as fast as you can, and then full cross [00:03:40] where it’s for people like head to head. And then a little bit later, I, um, did World Enduro, [00:03:45] which is more endurance based, but you kind of pedal up the hill and then race down over a couple of days. So a [00:03:50] couple of days. Yeah. So it’s so it’s, um. It didn’t mix [00:03:55] too well with dentistry. Lots of injuries, uh, point to anywhere on my body. There’s nuts [00:04:00] and bolts and various things holding it together. I never got the, um, the sort of the, [00:04:05] the, you know, like the insurance insure your hands sort of thing because my premium was always too high [00:04:10] when you have to list your injuries prior. So, uh, waste of time on that one. [00:04:15] But, uh, yeah, it came from that realm, which [00:04:20] is, it’s something I learned early on is you [00:04:25] got to work hard wherever you want to do to, to, to get to the top to.

Payman Langroudi: To get anywhere.

Mike Gray: Well, I [00:04:30] think what to do well is a different one because you’ve only got to work a little bit harder than average because [00:04:35] you just got to work, you know, a little bit more than the average person, you’ll do well. But if you want to get to the top, like. [00:04:40]

Payman Langroudi: Obsession.

Mike Gray: Yeah, it’s that side of it. And so, but it’s [00:04:45] also an element of, okay, well, what am I going to do different to everyone else [00:04:50] that’s going to because everyone’s working hard, everyone’s putting in the hours, everyone’s putting in the training. So when [00:04:55] it’s racing, for example, you’re looking at your bike. What can I tinker with this? What can I change? Can I change my tires or pressures [00:05:00] or this or that or that side? And you’re always looking for that edge. And then, um, [00:05:05] and similarly music came after that. Um, and with [00:05:10] that, there’s, there’s 1,000,001 people doing it and you don’t have to do it better than everyone [00:05:15] else, but you’ve just got to do something a little bit different. And it could be that you do it slightly better or [00:05:20] you don’t have to, you know, sort of reinvent the wheel, you know, as Elvis or someone [00:05:25] like that. And so it’s just that sort of mindset [00:05:30] I put to the dentistry whenever I’m doing it, it’s like, okay, well, what, [00:05:35] how can I do this a little bit different? Everyone’s doing it this way. I’m told to do it that way. What can [00:05:40] I change? And my brain’s constantly going with lots of, for example, I, [00:05:45] I hate placing retraction cord And [00:05:50] I haven’t found a better way of doing it. Uh, and for anyone [00:05:55] says sort of retraction pace. No, it can be an adjunct, but you’re not replacing sort [00:06:00] of double cord and things like that, but just packing it and placing it is awful, I hate it, it’s a bit of my day. [00:06:05] I do not like. I haven’t come up with a better way to do it yet. So every time I sit there and resent it, but it’s constantly in [00:06:10] my head, it’s like, how can I change this? How can I do that? How can I make this a better experience, slicker, [00:06:15] more efficient, whatever. Yeah. And so I do that a lot with everything.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the answer to that? [00:06:20]

Mike Gray: Oh, the retraction cord. I don’t know yet. If you can tell me what’s an instrument?

Payman Langroudi: There’s an instrument. I stopped practising [00:06:25] 12 years ago, so maybe things have moved on. But there was an instrument that was like a half moon.

Mike Gray: Yeah. [00:06:30]

Payman Langroudi: Do you know the one I’m talking about? There’s lots of.

Mike Gray: Variations. Yeah. You get little cord packers with little teeth and [00:06:35] things like that. And it’s like, I don’t think I’m too cackhanded when I, you know, compare [00:06:40] my work to others. But when it comes to retraction cord fingers and thumbs and, and I think that’s [00:06:45] just the way it rolls. And, and so.

Payman Langroudi: I’m quite interested, I’m quite interested in, you know, [00:06:50] the things, little tips and tricks that every dentist, every dentist [00:06:55] has. Now, you as a sort of innovator, as a teacher, you’ve got more tips [00:07:00] and tricks than, than the next man generally. But you know, if [00:07:05] someone does come up with an answer.

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Where do they go now? We’ve never [00:07:10] been at a better time.

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Now than than than before. I mean, I remember [00:07:15] 25 years ago, you know, it’s about who you bumped into by mistake was the [00:07:20] key thing.

Mike Gray: It’s there’s so much opportunity and in a way that can be difficult because [00:07:25] there’s just so much it’s, you know, similar to that whole music side of things before you [00:07:30] had to go out gig and this. Whereas now everything’s just online and, and sort of doing it that way. And yeah, [00:07:35] it’s things are so accessible because so I love that I love, um, that sort of [00:07:40] innovation side. And I suppose a snippet into my psyche is, is I’ve taught [00:07:45] myself CAD. Um, and that world of CAD combined with 3D printing, which [00:07:50] you do as well. Whatever you dream up, you can draw up and print within the same day. It’s incredible. [00:07:55] So, um, what’s.

Payman Langroudi: Your approach when you are about to dive into something? [00:08:00] Is your approach? Who should I call first? Or is your [00:08:05] approach what book I should read? What, what resource? What do you do? Do you Google it? What do you do? [00:08:10]

Mike Gray: My approach should be who do I, you know, who do I call in that I’m not very good. [00:08:15] I’m very much sort of run solo. And I’m not saying that’s the best way. That’s my personality type. [00:08:20]

Payman Langroudi: The best way is to call some people I know, but I’m the same as you. My my first instinct [00:08:25] isn’t.

Mike Gray: I’m getting better at that. I am getting better at that. Um, so it’s, [00:08:30] it’s usually it would be if I have an idea, um, I’ll just get obsessive [00:08:35] and I’ll sit there and I’ll literally.

Payman Langroudi: What do you do? So you said, you said on another part, I [00:08:40] heard you say, uh, photography. Most people would go on a course. Yeah. I had [00:08:45] to learn it all inside out. So what do you do?

Mike Gray: Yeah, I’m changing that a little bit because [00:08:50] courses are great and I think I’m it’s weird. I’m almost starting my [00:08:55] career later because I didn’t put any effort into dentistry. I hated [00:09:00] it, like I said. So I graduated in 2009, did about four years of hospital jobs, [00:09:05] um, got my place in med school for max FACs. Um, uh, [00:09:10] and that was, you know, which we touched on earlier where [00:09:15] my, you know, my best friend took his life and he was one of those where I was like, oh, I’m [00:09:20] going to step back here. And I went back to racing bikes for a couple of years. Not necessarily [00:09:25] the right answer. Again, that whole obsessive side of things and burying yourself, you think [00:09:30] you’re being good, but actually you’re not giving yourself time to process anything.

Payman Langroudi: What was [00:09:35] the emotion that that he took his own life in dentistry. And so you were angry at dentistry [00:09:40] or something?

Mike Gray: Um, no, I think a lot of it was.

Payman Langroudi: Shook you out of what.

Mike Gray: You think. It’s [00:09:45] the guilt. I hadn’t seen him as much as I should have or. And it’s not, you know, I know the reality [00:09:50] is, is I was there for him as a mate and I was a buddy. And, you know, it was a good friend and that side of it. But Max [00:09:55] factor is all consuming. You know, he’s working 110 hour weeks. It was, you know, all [00:10:00] in and not being able to have that quality time. I was just kind of like, [00:10:05] ah, this, this is this sucks. This is rubbish. This is this is not life. And so I’m [00:10:10] just gonna, I’m gonna step back. I’m not doing this. And then and a lot of it was I was trying to cope but [00:10:15] wasn’t coping. I think it’s the honest answer. Um, and you know, nothing’s better than [00:10:20] world level sport. Just burying your emotions. Just train every day, [00:10:25] all day. Go and race here, there, everywhere. And you don’t actually have to sit with anything. [00:10:30]

Payman Langroudi: So you stop completely, completely.

Mike Gray: No, I was never fast enough to earn enough money. So [00:10:35] that was good for my dentistry because it kept my hand in so that I’ve got experience. [00:10:40] So even though I didn’t really learn anything. I was gaining experience over those years, so [00:10:45] I used to work part time, sort of living on a shoestring and like so with the racing, I’ll get bike sponsors, [00:10:50] you know, flights and hotels and stuff paid for that sort of thing, but nothing serious to, [00:10:55] to, to live properly.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me about that life. It’s a load [00:11:00] of training, I guess.

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then, and then. But you’re travelling all over the world.

Mike Gray: Yeah. [00:11:05] Yeah. So those two years that I raced the World Series went everywhere from Chile to Spain [00:11:10] to Colorado to, you know, Italy just, just all over. And it’s, [00:11:15] it’s, it’s awesome in that a lot of the people you race with, certainly [00:11:20] the racing I was doing was against the clock. So when you’re against each other, but when you’re racing against [00:11:25] the clock, you don’t have any of that animosity, that sort of right. So your body’s so you’re in these [00:11:30] incredible places.

Payman Langroudi: With incredible.

Mike Gray: People. Yeah. And, and often it’s not touristy. [00:11:35] So you’re off the beaten track. And so you get to experience parts of the world that you just, you would just [00:11:40] never see, which I love to go back and do that. But at the time I was doing that, I [00:11:45] wasn’t present. There was nothing there. You were completely focussed on the event. And I get emotional thinking back [00:11:50] of all the crazy places and beautiful things I’ve seen, and I wasn’t actually soaking it in. Um. [00:11:55]

Payman Langroudi: But, and I guess there’s a, there’s a sort of reflection [00:12:00] of that on every aspect of your life, right? Yeah. It’s not only when you’re in Chile not paying [00:12:05] attention to Chile. Yeah, yeah. It’s when you’re at home not paying attention to your best friend or not your mum [00:12:10] or whatever it is.

Mike Gray: Yeah, yeah. And I’m a lot better now. Um, it’s, you know, [00:12:15] anyone that hasn’t seen a good therapist, like whether you feel you need it or not, definitely recommend. [00:12:20] Uh, it turns out I needed it. It’s funny actually, because I [00:12:25] would say I’m a high achiever. I’m used to, you know, just picking stuff up, sorting things out, flying through, [00:12:30] done early, whatever. And, uh, I was with my therapist for about two and a half years and, and he was like, [00:12:35] I think you’re ready to sort of fly the nest. And I’m like, yeah, yeah. You know, So there I was like, oh, how long do most [00:12:40] how long do you spend with most people? He’s like, oh, about six months. I was like, oh, so not high [00:12:45] achieving. They’re not high achieving there. But one of the best things I ever did just to bring [00:12:50] you in touch with yourself.

Payman Langroudi: And while we’re on that subject.

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:12:55] was the thing that made you switch from I don’t need a therapist to, okay, let’s try this. [00:13:00]

Mike Gray: It was never I didn’t need it was, uh, a friend of mine [00:13:05] had gone. And so then, you know, it made me think, well, I couldn’t [00:13:10] give myself a good reason not to. And that was why I went, um, I genuinely I didn’t [00:13:15] think I really needed it, you know, at that side of it. But when I presented myself with argument of, [00:13:20] you know, give me a reason why you shouldn’t go, you can’t give [00:13:25] yourself a good reason.

Payman Langroudi: And so it tends to be that I don’t need to. Yeah. Like, for [00:13:30] instance, by the way, I’ve given the advice a hundred times. Go get a therapist. Yeah. But but [00:13:35] personally, I feel like I don’t need to. Yeah, it’s an interesting switch between. I don’t [00:13:40] need to to. Let me try this. Yeah. And what? Really? Now it’s playing on my mind so [00:13:45] much. Yeah. I’ve got a couple of members of staff who their thing is like, why would if you could afford it, why [00:13:50] wouldn’t you? Yeah. Like it’s a want, not a need kind of thing, you know? And that’s really getting [00:13:55] to me now. Yeah. Because I said.

Mike Gray: Well, you know, Payman you give yourself a good reason why you shouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well, I’ve [00:14:00] got so many good reasons I shouldn’t have you just.

Mike Gray: Like I’m not smart enough.

Payman Langroudi: I’m going back [00:14:05] to the back to the writing.

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Who were the other people? Were [00:14:10] they like, uh, people from all over the world? Yeah. Yeah. Competitors.

Mike Gray: World champions, like, you know, everyone. So [00:14:15] I used to, uh, over the various different disciplines. I’d sort of sniff [00:14:20] around between 50th to 70th in the world, something like that. Um, which [00:14:25] was, like I said, it’s a hell of a cool level to reach, but unless you’re [00:14:30] sort of top 30, top 20, you’re not making any money. So you’re just doing it for.

Payman Langroudi: You might have been [00:14:35] number one in the UK. Yeah.

Mike Gray: Well. Number champion. Well yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:14:40] But number 40 in the world and 40 in the world doesn’t cut it as a career.

Mike Gray: No no no not in not [00:14:45] in the mountain biking. I think road cycling would be a bit different. So, uh, it’s [00:14:50] uh. Yeah, I went down the wrong discipline.

Payman Langroudi: And typically what would happen, you’d arrive in Chile?

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:14:55] is the next day, the competition or would you have to acclimatise or so.

Mike Gray: So for example, Chile, [00:15:00] I think there was something like, yeah, 14 hour flight. You pack everything up in your bag. And again, [00:15:05] if you’re you’re further up the roster, you’ve got big team around you. So they’re sorting all the [00:15:10] bikes and mechanics.

Payman Langroudi: Whereas you are you going by yourself?

Mike Gray: Oh yeah. Kicking around by me. It’s like I’m a [00:15:15] mechanic and that sort of thing. Got to get myself there, organise everything, feed myself. No masseurs, none of that. [00:15:20] So um, so yeah, I just packed my bike up in a bike bag. Carry what? Spares [00:15:25] I could, um, and just set out on the aeroplane and I think it’s like it [00:15:30] was a long way to Chile. It was two flights and the first one was like 14 hours. And [00:15:35] then when I got there, I just hired a car, put the seats down, throw everything in [00:15:40] the back. I got stopped by the police within like five minutes for doing something wrong or going the wrong [00:15:45] way. And then yeah, make way. I had like a two, [00:15:50] four hour drive. I can’t even remember. Um, South of Santiago, up to [00:15:55] the mountains. And you rock up, find your hotel, acclimatise yourself a bit, [00:16:00] and then you’re into sort of practice then, um, so you would [00:16:05] get a couple of days to you get to, for example, the world enduro, I think Chile, they might have [00:16:10] been like five race tracks. So but you have to pedal [00:16:15] up on your own steam. So you’re pedalling up five mountains. So it’s, it’s, and that’s just the [00:16:20] training. So you’d have enough time to practice each track once, but [00:16:25] they’re so long, you don’t really know where you’re going. So you just hitting stuff. Uh, the expression [00:16:30] is blind. You don’t really know what’s around the corner, which is hard when you’re trying to race fast. It’s [00:16:35] crazy.

Payman Langroudi: Because you just imagine mountain.

Payman Langroudi: Biking is an adrenaline sport. Yeah, but it’s not adrenaline [00:16:40] for the first. Climbing up for a few days. Well, yeah.

Mike Gray: No, see, obviously when [00:16:45] you come down. So you pedal up and you wouldn’t get time pedalling up. You just had a time frame, so you had to get to the top with [00:16:50] it. So you couldn’t take it easy. So you had to pedal like you had to be fit to pedal up. And then, uh, you would [00:16:55] race down and that’s where you’re timed. And so you’re going as fast as you could. And the downs would be anywhere from about 5 minutes to [00:17:00] 25 minutes. And at the end of it, they add up all the times and he’s done everything quickest sort of wins there. So you’d have [00:17:05] a couple of days practice, but you’d be burning 8000 calories a day. So it was it [00:17:10] was tough just on the training.

Payman Langroudi: Side itself as an adrenaline junkie.

Mike Gray: Yeah, definitely. [00:17:15] Um, and I still sort of, and I listen to that voice [00:17:20] in my head a lot more now. That’s maturity. It’s like 1340 this year. And [00:17:25] so that voice that says that’s not a good idea. I pay attention to it, whereas [00:17:30] I didn’t before and obviously got myself in trouble with lots of injuries and doing stupid things, but [00:17:35] I do. I do still enjoy that side. For example, um, [00:17:40] week after next, I’m taking my motorbike to Germany to do the coldest motorbike rally [00:17:45] in the world. And why do I want to go and ride my motorbike and sleep in a tent in -12? [00:17:50] I don’t know, but well, I’ll tell you why. You know, I love motorbikes. [00:17:55] I love the experience. The group of friends I’m going with are great. They’re a load of old race buddies and [00:18:00] they’re the type that would make cyclists. Yeah, you know, some of them are. And [00:18:05] then and then, uh, uh, they’re the type of friends [00:18:10] that make a trip to the supermarket fun. Um, so normally every year we do [00:18:15] something called the Dragon rally, which is a motorbike rally up to North Wales. [00:18:20] And it’s supposed to be grim.

Mike Gray: So it’s usually first weekend of February and you go and camp [00:18:25] in a field in uh, in Snowdonia. And so this year we’ve moved it on to [00:18:30] this elephant rally, which is which is in Germany. But you’ve got to be sensible though, because again, [00:18:35] being younger and more stupid, first time I did the Dragon rally, you can only take whatever [00:18:40] you can fit on your bike. So it’s not much. And so had a little one man tent and I’m about sort of six [00:18:45] three. And this, this tent was tiny as like a sort of a saggy coffin. And, [00:18:50] uh, I remember getting a bit more drunk than I should have and ripped my tent getting [00:18:55] in, got one leg in my sleeping bag and passed out. And then I woke up [00:19:00] covered in snow. It was snowing, it was buried. I was borderline hypothermia. [00:19:05] And, uh, I managed to sort of climb in my sleeping bag and survived the night. But [00:19:10] after that I was like, yeah, it’s actually, you need to be a little bit sensible on this sort [00:19:15] of thing there. So, uh, I won’t be getting so inebriated in, in the Bavarian forest. [00:19:20]

Payman Langroudi: So was the thing that made you stop that you felt like you couldn’t pay for your life this way?

Mike Gray: Uh, [00:19:25] no. That was the music. Music. I got pissed off with that side. Um, so [00:19:30] I used to race all through from the age of ten competing, [00:19:35] you know, bikes, motorbikes, mainly mountain biking and, and all the way through uni up until final [00:19:40] year. Um, and then I knuckled down in final year, which, which because I never. [00:19:45]

Payman Langroudi: That’s when the oral surgery kicked in.

Mike Gray: Well I, I never, I never knew how to [00:19:50] study. Um, in school, my parents never made me do my homework. Um, [00:19:55] and luckily I was smart so I could get away with it. I had about like 80% attendance for my A-levels, [00:20:00] which works out missing a day a week. And it was and uh, achievement. [00:20:05] Well, stupid. No, I wouldn’t encourage it, but, you know, I’d be. I want [00:20:10] to go race my bike or I’m tired from racing or I wasn’t skiving off just kicking, you know, kicking around the [00:20:15] bus stop. But, um, and then when I got to uni, it’s the first time I was like, oh shit, I [00:20:20] actually have to work to pass these exams.

Payman Langroudi: You southern Bristol.

Mike Gray: Yeah. So that was in Bristol. But [00:20:25] then, you know, the fatal error as far as my [00:20:30] motivation, there was, you know, being told that, oh, dentistry is just a pass or [00:20:35] a fail. So I was like, okay, what’s the minimum amount of work I need to do to get by that?

Payman Langroudi: I made [00:20:40] that mistake.

Mike Gray: Oh, dude. So it was a bit stressful though. So I sailed too close to the wind [00:20:45] for a couple of years. I was, I was just scraping.

Payman Langroudi: Through out like that. But, but it’s, it’s a mistake [00:20:50] inasmuch as you put it in your own head that that’s all the only two outcomes are pass and fail. [00:20:55] Yeah. Which by the way, I failed. Yeah, but but but the outcomes are so different. I see some students [00:21:00] now. I don’t know if you come across students now. Yeah. My goodness man. You know like going on [00:21:05] hands on courses. Yeah. There were a few students. There’s 2 or 3 students I can think of who [00:21:10] are more connected in the dental world than me. Yeah. Been in it for 25 years. Some [00:21:15] dude sitting in the third year of dental school connected. Yeah. You know, it’s. [00:21:20] I guess it’s the internet again, right? It’s allowing that sort of thing to happen. [00:21:25]

Mike Gray: Yeah. It makes us. That’s just.

Payman Langroudi: Been. But you know that kid when he comes out, you know he’s going to be [00:21:30] much more ready to go than I was. Yeah.

Mike Gray: I had no idea I was I was massively naive [00:21:35] to the world and, uh. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So how much oral surgery did you do [00:21:40] before you started thinking maxfax.

Mike Gray: Uh, so I did a GP t, which [00:21:45] was two years. So did my first year dentistry and I was in a sleepy town in Swanage [00:21:50] on the south coast. So did a lot of dentures. And I’m like, oof, dentistry is not for me. And then [00:21:55] I was attached then to Poole Hospital, which was known as the Republic of Poole. Um, [00:22:00] most incredible job I ever had. Um, and, uh, [00:22:05] that’s where I did the oral surgery side. And then I did a four year maxfax [00:22:10] after that. And then I stayed in the hospitals then for sort of 3 to 4 years. And I [00:22:15] went to, um, I did a restorative job in Cardiff, but then I used to locum, um, [00:22:20] uh, night smacks facts, which again is stupid. Working 24 hours.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:22:25] did that.

Mike Gray: Job. Yeah, yeah. In the heat. In the heat.

Payman Langroudi: I did cry Cardiff Infirmary [00:22:30] was the. Yeah. The nightmare of. But, you know, some people thrive like it sounds like you thrived. [00:22:35] Yeah, yeah. Adrenaline junkie guy. Yeah, I hated it. Hated it, hated you. I [00:22:40] loved I still think it was good for me. Yeah, yeah. It was definitely good for me because nothing in life [00:22:45] has come close to.

Mike Gray: Oh, no. I think it should.

Payman Langroudi: Be compulsory that the.

Mike Gray: Student should do a year’s max [00:22:50] fax.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe. Maybe.

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or nothing in life has come anywhere near as challenging as [00:22:55] being this just qualified dentist looking after people who had like pint glasses smashed [00:23:00] in their face, or some poor person who’s got terminal cancer and they’re doing [00:23:05] a gigantic operation on them. And you’re the doctor, the junior.

Mike Gray: It’s crazy. My [00:23:10] first patient on my first day was, well, they did three days later. Yeah. [00:23:15] And it was like Ludwig’s angina in a patient with severe dementia. [00:23:20] And what is it? What am I supposed to do? It was a yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I remember [00:23:25] the nurse on the ward telling me, yeah, now you’ve got to, you know, pull the catheter out. I was like, [00:23:30] what? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mike Gray: I didn’t sign up for this. The trick with that is don’t make eye [00:23:35] contact. It’s just you just go about it like business. Um, so [00:23:40] yeah, so I did that.

Payman Langroudi: But how did you, how good did you get at what? Eventually by the end of this, could [00:23:45] you, I don’t know, obviously take out wisdom teeth. Could you do things like, [00:23:50] uh, you know, Lefort operations.

Mike Gray: Uh, no, I couldn’t do, I did, I did a lot of mandibles, [00:23:55] did a lot of tracheostomies, um, zygomas that side. Um, [00:24:00] so, and most of that stemmed from my first couple of years down in pool, [00:24:05] because if anybody wants good math facts experience, go to a small, busy hospital [00:24:10] and you’ll get all the hands on it, preferably somewhere where there’s no plastics. So they don’t take any of that. [00:24:15] And so I put the time in though, to impress. Like, you know, the more you put in, the more [00:24:20] you get out and that sort of role. So like I said, I was there 12 hours a day minimum. Um, but because I [00:24:25] was put in that time in the consultants were, you know, well, crack on because I remember there was [00:24:30] a consultant, Sajjad Walji and, uh, we do a surgical tracheostomy [00:24:35] and, uh, he said, you watch one, you do one. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Next [00:24:40] one came along. I was like, okay. And I was like, are you kidding? So I [00:24:45] had to do the surgical tracheostomy. I’m two years out of dental school. Um, and it’s [00:24:50] terrifying. You cut a little window in the trachea and they’re like, okay, you’ve got two minutes to get that tube in. Otherwise they’re dead. And [00:24:55] you’re just like, but this is incredible passage.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Crazy.

Mike Gray: So [00:25:00] because I got a lot of hands on, the more you do, the more people will depend on [00:25:05] you and appreciate you sort of doing those bits. And so yeah, a lot of that surgical, [00:25:10] I did a lot of skins down in Poole as well, which was great for.

Payman Langroudi: Basal cell carcinoma.

Mike Gray: Yeah. Bccssx, [00:25:15] that sort of thing. And rotational flaps. Pedicle flaps.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re now [00:25:20] very comfortable with surgical in every sense. Did you put implants in now?

Mike Gray: Uh, I [00:25:25] do implants now. Yeah, yeah, I was late to that one though. Um, I, like I said, I wasn’t, I [00:25:30] wasn’t trying to move my career along then I was trying to do everything but be a dentist because like I said, got to [00:25:35] had my place in med school, three year Manchester. Um, and [00:25:40] yeah, my buddy passed away. I’m like, oh, screw this, like this, you know? And the other [00:25:45] thing is I could see the NHS going down the pan, which is sad. It’s really makes me really sad. Such a beautiful [00:25:50] system. Yeah. Care free at the point of delivery. But if it’s not working, [00:25:55] what does it matter if it doesn’t what it costs, you know? Um, and [00:26:00] so took that time out. I was like, I’m gonna race bikes again. So race bikes. [00:26:05] Um, yeah, like I made it as a semi career, [00:26:10] but I was, you’re never going to set yourself up on that. So then interestingly, in the max [00:26:15] facts, it probably was a coping mechanism. I started picking up guitar and just writing songs. [00:26:20]

Payman Langroudi: Before you move on to the music, what was the hairiest thing that happened [00:26:25] in that Max factor or some of the hairy things that happened to you? [00:26:30]

Mike Gray: We used to in Birmingham, it’s level two trauma centre. So at [00:26:35] time, you know, when I was there, you were getting everything from like Afghanistan and that. So people were stepping on, [00:26:40] you know, explosives in that side. And because often somebody steps on an [00:26:45] IED, obviously arms and legs get blown off, but everything comes and [00:26:50] hits the chin and jaw and all that side. And it’s the one I [00:26:55] used to find it difficult. Whenever you actually connected with reality, it was very easy in [00:27:00] Max factor to separate yourself of that a patient, um, or you know, it’s just parts [00:27:05] you’re, you see them unconscious. You don’t even build a relationship in the hospital. You just come in and [00:27:10] we’re going to operate. You don’t even talk to them, somebody else is whatever. And you just in theatre put them together, usually [00:27:15] unconscious when you’re finished. But the odd time when you do see him on the ward [00:27:20] afterwards and you realise, because the one that hit home for me was a young girl, 17 or [00:27:25] 18 in a in a RTA, and it didn’t even think, you know, you laughing, [00:27:30] joking around in theatres, sorting stuff, and then came by to you afterwards on the ward rounds and then a [00:27:35] Mother’s Day sort of like, oh, you don’t deserve this. And that’s give me goosebumps now thinking of it. And like, actually [00:27:40] there’s some really nasty stuff that you sort of see and humanity is can [00:27:45] be disgusting, which you see in max facts as well, because anyone fighting and doing horrible things [00:27:50] to one another usually involves injuries of the face and that side. So it’s a pretty [00:27:55] dark topic in that side, but incredible then as well what you can do and sort [00:28:00] that out. Um, but oh yeah. Hairy things. Yeah. I mean [00:28:05] saw everything from that. I did some really stupid things as well. I think you chat about mistakes afterwards.

Payman Langroudi: So Should [00:28:10] we go there now?

Mike Gray: I mean, it’s so dentally related. You [00:28:15] get called from A&E, docs come down. Somebody lost their [00:28:20] teeth. Um, and typically dentists, we look down on those as doctors [00:28:25] whenever it comes to the mouth. Yeah. I think that’s our one saving. Yeah. We got this. Yeah. You [00:28:30] know nothing you know. Yeah. And, uh, so I had a phone and it’s like, oh, you know, I’ve had a go at putting the [00:28:35] teeth back in, but can you just come and come and check? And I’m like, oh, what’s he gone and done, you know? So [00:28:40] I got down there and this gentleman sat there and, uh, he must have had a bit of perio because [00:28:45] you’d teeth like a burnt down fence, bless him. And, and I looked at it and I’m like, oh, what [00:28:50] have you done here? So I got his two front teeth and silly buggers gone and put them in the wrong way round. [00:28:55] So I swapped him round, put him back in the socket, stepped back and said to his wife, [00:29:00] I was like, you know, how’s that looking? We’re both sort of cocking her head and she’s like. And [00:29:05] then I’m like, oh no. So I leant back over him so that he [00:29:10] couldn’t see, and quickly swapped the teeth back around to how the doctor [00:29:15] had done it. And then I stepped back and I was like, how about that? And she’s like, yeah, yeah, that’s him. And I [00:29:20] learned a valuable lesson that day. You know, as far as ego and that side, the only doctor was [00:29:25] spot on and everything, right? And me as a professional came down, took the teeth back out, put them in the [00:29:30] wrong way round and yeah, got it all wrong. I like that. So, uh, learned a valuable [00:29:35] lesson that day.

Mike Gray: Another one was a poor kid. Um, he was a cleft patient, [00:29:40] um, of the, of the hospital and, uh, he’d come into A&E, fallen off his bike [00:29:45] or something, landed on his chin and he was sitting there and I’m like, this guy’s just been being a wimp. Like, it’s like he’s [00:29:50] blessing him. He’s had all his surgery with cleft and a lot of, you know, people who have been through in the mill [00:29:55] hospital environments are difficult. And so I’m like, uh, you know, and he [00:30:00] sat there and he’s making a fuss and he’s, uh, not really closing his jaw or anything like that. Took [00:30:05] an opt. Everything’s fine. No fractures, nothing. And [00:30:10] so I’m trying to send this kid home. I’m like, look, you need to toughen up. You just bruised your TMJ, that [00:30:15] side of it. And, uh, luckily there was a switched on A&E consultant who said, kids [00:30:20] in too much pain. It’s not just a bruise. And I’m like, yeah, it is. What do you know? You know, I’m the I’m the facial expert [00:30:25] here. And, uh, but so he overruled me and admitted him. And luckily my [00:30:30] reg came round. Um, this kid had managed to fracture his condyles [00:30:35] up through his mastoid bone into his brain. His condyles were sitting in [00:30:40] his brain. Wow. And that’s why he couldn’t close his jaw because they were stuck in there, but in a freakish [00:30:45] way. He’d done it without fracturing the condyles because you’d much more likely to fracture the condyles. [00:30:50] And I just felt awful. I’m busy there. I’m like, telling this kid to sort [00:30:55] of man up. Um, dude, you said a little. Meanwhile, his jaws sat in his brain [00:31:00] and, uh, so again, learnt a hell of a lesson then, you know, just.

Payman Langroudi: What was the incident [00:31:05] that caused that?

Mike Gray: Landed on his chin and fell off like fell over, fell off his bike, landed on his chin and [00:31:10] must have just got everything just right and happened.

Payman Langroudi: To be a cleft patient. Yeah.

Mike Gray: And [00:31:15] that’s and so it’s me just jumping to conclusions thinking I know more than I do.

Payman Langroudi: And so what [00:31:20] happened there?

Mike Gray: They planned a joint case with Maxfax neuro because they’re like, oh, we got to do [00:31:25] it. And the the anaesthetist anaesthetised him, intubated him, popped it out. And they’re like, oh, [00:31:30] job done. So left it there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, oh [00:31:35] my.

Payman Langroudi: Goodness. That’s the juiciest one we’ve had on the podcast ever.

Mike Gray: I know, but.

Payman Langroudi: They’re going. [00:31:40]

Mike Gray: About like lethal bliss. And I, like I said, I feel awful even thinking about it now. Oh, another [00:31:45] one. Let’s just do Maxfax. And you have all these stories. Cardiff. Cardiff. [00:31:50] I can give you one. Yeah. Go on. Um, again, so I worked restorative [00:31:55] during the day, which to be honest, you need to work two jobs if you’re doing restorative. Chill [00:32:00] chill af you stroll up at nine, you see about one patient. [00:32:05] Then you maybe have one patient in the afternoon and then you’re done early. And [00:32:10] so I used yeah, locum. Then Max faxed through the night and maybe [00:32:15] not a good idea being tired. Um, but I had a gentleman come in and he had like a sebaceous cyst [00:32:20] right in the middle of his forehead that got infected. Big throbbing, full of pus, red, angry [00:32:25] and being tired. I went to give him like a supraorbital block, but [00:32:30] must have gone way too low and actually went into his eye socket a bit, not hitting eyeballs or anything, [00:32:35] but I caused something to bleed so I just swelled up shut. So I’m like, oh great.

Mike Gray: So I’m having to do IOPs [00:32:40] and monitor that. So I’m already like, Mike, what have you done? And then, uh, [00:32:45] so eventually then after panicking about swelling, getting his eye swelling [00:32:50] up shut, then I’m on to incise and drain, uh, this sort of infected cyst [00:32:55] on his forehead. And I didn’t make a big enough incision. So I’m panicking about [00:33:00] this. I didn’t make a business. So I make an incision and I’m trying to get the pus out, and it was just too much pressure. [00:33:05] And then suddenly you know where this is going. Oh, in my face, pus exploded [00:33:10] in my face. And you’re trying to be professional. And this guy sat there. I’ve already balled up and he’s thinking, [00:33:15] who the hell is this cowboy that I’ve got this. You know, I don’t look old now. I looked even younger then, and, [00:33:20] uh. And I’m there just trying not to retch. Trying not to scream. Try not to run out [00:33:25] this professional where I sort of go around his back and then just, like, are trying to get. [00:33:30]

Payman Langroudi: Clean myself up.

Mike Gray: Oh, goodness. So yeah, I’d say that’s a that’s a terrible one [00:33:35] as well. So I’ll stop with that hat trick before.

Payman Langroudi: No they’re good. I enjoyed [00:33:40] those.

Mike Gray: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then music.

Mike Gray: Music. Yeah. So [00:33:45] that yeah. I think a coping thing with the Max factor was I just pick up a guitar and [00:33:50] play. And I used to play a lot of slide blues and that side of things.

Payman Langroudi: You could already play guitar.

Mike Gray: Yeah, I started [00:33:55] learning when I was about 13. I’m nothing incredible, but I get by And [00:34:00] I just started playing and writing songs, you know, later in life, really [00:34:05] the most musicians because I was 25, 26 at that point. [00:34:10] Um, and that’s where it started. And [00:34:15] then I went and had these couple of years of letting my hair down racing. And over [00:34:20] those couple of years, the music, it got to a point where I’m like, maybe I’ve got something. [00:34:25] And again, it was like, well, unless you [00:34:30] try, you’ll never know unless you know to put your money where your mouth is sort [00:34:35] of thing. So I dug into my pocket, asked around my old. And a good [00:34:40] friend of mine was in a band before. So I’m like producer, you know, give me a good [00:34:45] producer, whatever. So he put me on to this guy, Gethyn Pearson. And um, yeah, [00:34:50] sent him a demo and a lot of, you know, a lot of producers, if they don’t like it, they won’t take it on, you know, and so [00:34:55] he liked what he heard and because he where he was going. And so yeah, I went to a cool [00:35:00] studio, um, just for two days.

Mike Gray: Two songs. Oh, music industry’s wild [00:35:05] for hours as well. You can see there’s so many drugs involved and like, so you’d start, you’d [00:35:10] start in the morning and you’d stop when it’s done. Um, so often you’d go to like 2 a.m. that sort [00:35:15] of thing, which I don’t like. I don’t think it’s the best way to be productive, but that’s kind of the culture. So [00:35:20] we went in the studio, I did two days, two songs, Stupid Hours, and [00:35:25] came out with these two songs. And uh, it blew my mind where you could take it because I was kind of like [00:35:30] a one man band setup when it was not everyone was doing it. I had my nans suitcase [00:35:35] that I’d turned into a drum, but I put little drum triggers in there so you could make it sound like whatever you wanted. And [00:35:40] I had a tambourine, but drum triggers and stuff on that, it’s a massive sound. Guitar went to three different amps, [00:35:45] three different sounds, just huge sounds. And, uh, so [00:35:50] yeah, I did, uh, did, um.

Payman Langroudi: But at the end of that sort of session [00:35:55] in a, in a The studio is the talent of the producer is a big deal, right?

Mike Gray: Oh, [00:36:00] massive. That makes it. You got to be able to write the song. You got to be able to do bits. But the producer has [00:36:05] a big part of it as well. I mean, they take a big cut like that, you get screwed [00:36:10] left, right and centre as an artist in the music world. And so for example, [00:36:15] um, a producer would take uh, four points, [00:36:20] so they call it four points, 4%. So that’s what that is. Yeah. So 4%. Um, [00:36:25] and you think, oh, 4%.

Payman Langroudi: That’s nothing of what of turnover.

Mike Gray: Well, so royalty [00:36:30] wise, then on average, let’s say even if you’re a successful artist, [00:36:35] um, but certainly new artists, you’ll get about sort of roughly 12% [00:36:40] royalties. Yeah, yeah. So the rest goes to labels, everything else [00:36:45] and that side and that that four points comes [00:36:50] out of your cut. So it’s more like 40% of what you.

Payman Langroudi: Goodness.

Mike Gray: You know, [00:36:55] what you’re taking in is so that four out of that 12 leaves you with, uh, you [00:37:00] know, eight there. So it’s yeah, sorry, I got an A in maths and maths [00:37:05] goes in dentistry. Simple addition subtraction.

Payman Langroudi: But of your brains.

Mike Gray: Yeah. No [00:37:10] binomial expansion no more, you know. Um so.

Payman Langroudi: So so then now you had a couple [00:37:15] of songs. How does that progress on to.

Mike Gray: So from that one, [00:37:20] these songs, um, it just music [00:37:25] industry, it’s, it’s all who, you know, um, and it’s, it’s such an incestuous [00:37:30] world as well. And just off the back of that, these songs started circulating amongst different people [00:37:35] and that, and before you know it, I got a manager. Um, and that was a really cool [00:37:40] experience because he, um, uh, he owned like a [00:37:45] promotions company. So just run loads of music nights and loads of music venues [00:37:50] across the UK. So I went straight from a nobody. So he picked me up as [00:37:55] a manager back in, recorded some more bits, and then he just put me on stage with bands like Fun [00:38:00] Criminals and Alabama three and touring with them just off the back of Nothing [00:38:05] to Play into thousands of people. Um, which was incredible. Baptism of fire, but [00:38:10] a hell of an experience. Um, and so did.

Payman Langroudi: It, like standing on [00:38:15] a stage with thousands of people. The bigger the stage, as you would imagine. Yeah. [00:38:20] It’s.

Mike Gray: It’s the bigger the stage, the easier it is.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:38:25] you can’t make out faces.

Mike Gray: You can’t see anyone, you can’t see anything. You’ve got lights in your face, a huge audience [00:38:30] out there. So it’s they’re the hardest gigs I ever played. Were the empty [00:38:35] pubs when no one’s listening because you can. You can hear every conversation, [00:38:40] see everyone, see that absolutely nobody.

Payman Langroudi: Forming as a comedian or something [00:38:45] like that.

Mike Gray: Is the hardest because it’s very real right in front of you. Whereas [00:38:50] big stage, It’s almost very impersonal.

Payman Langroudi: But you know how in dentistry, like we qualify, [00:38:55] we, you know, start out doing a few procedures, mess it up. Yeah. Not that great [00:39:00] at communication. And then you learn the things, the important sort of cornerstones. What, [00:39:05] what’s the equivalent of that in, in that world? I mean, okay, you’re in a pub playing in front [00:39:10] of people who aren’t listening, but you get better at it. Did you did you feel like you were improving?

Mike Gray: I, [00:39:15] um, I, I’m still very envious of those people who [00:39:20] can go out and they’ve done that sort of pub circuit and they’ve put in way more hours [00:39:25] than me because I skipped, I skipped so much of it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Gray: Yeah. It’s [00:39:30] like they, they, I skipped so much of it because I, I got lucky with my manager [00:39:35] owning all these cool venues. And so rather than having to hustle with the little gigs, I [00:39:40] went straight into these, these big gigs. And so I didn’t, I didn’t earn it. I didn’t put my hours in [00:39:45] of people throwing shit and asking stupid requests and booing or whatever, Or not listening [00:39:50] or crashing into the sea.

Payman Langroudi: Pinch yourself a little bit in that moment, right?

Mike Gray: Yeah. [00:39:55] But again, now I look back far more appreciative of the time. [00:40:00] Just a million miles an hour, not taking it in as well as I could.

Payman Langroudi: Stopping and smelling the [00:40:05] roses.

Mike Gray: Yeah, absolutely. And just not not taking that time to be because I’d [00:40:10] rolled on from, you know, terrible things to, to racing bikes straight into music. [00:40:15] Suddenly that took off like as a whirlwind. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And how far did you [00:40:20] go with the music?

Mike Gray: So I had one sort of manager and starting getting people [00:40:25] in there and that sort of petered out. And um, so everything [00:40:30] that I had sort of was all taken down because music industry is very much about control [00:40:35] of who sees what. And that’s even within the industry. They love to play.

Payman Langroudi: They sort of FOMO [00:40:40] like, um, love to play.

Mike Gray: Games with one another.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Gray: It’s like, oh, I’ve got this artist and like, they’ll drip [00:40:45] feed what they want to different people knowing how it’s going to spike their interest. Sort of thing. [00:40:50] Um, and so everything was taken down. And so again, starting from nothing. [00:40:55] I’m like, oh, this is rubbish. So um, same thing again a bit more cash. I’m [00:41:00] like, alright, cool. I’m going to record another couple of songs. And then I started releasing on my own and off [00:41:05] the back of releasing, uh, I only just put out two tracks of my [00:41:10] own. Um, because luckily I smart thing is, I own all the rights to it. Not so smart because [00:41:15] it’s just sat on a hard drive now doing nothing. So I own all of nothing at the minute. [00:41:20] Um, but I got, yeah, [00:41:25] I had a couple of people reach out basically to management people. There was one based in London, [00:41:30] so one was um, a guy, uh, I can’t remember his name now. [00:41:35] Um, but Jax Jones, I don’t know if he’s a sort of a sort of a sort [00:41:40] of a dance music type, um, sort of big deal is his manager.

Mike Gray: Um, and so he [00:41:45] sort of reached out And then I had another guy from LA and within a short space of time, like I had people coming [00:41:50] to my house sort of wanting to represent from a management side. Um, and [00:41:55] I ended up going with, uh, sort of London based and, [00:42:00] uh, so that happened that way. And so then I’ve [00:42:05] got a manager and they help build a team. So then you’ve got a promoter and that side and I [00:42:10] had some cool experiences. But again, this is the bit I found difficult with music in [00:42:15] that I love about dentistry now because I hated dentistry. Love it. Now, um, in [00:42:20] that again, music or anything as we’re talking about to do. Well, you got to work hard. Um, there’s [00:42:25] no substitute in music. You’ve got to work hard and have a bit of luck. And it went [00:42:30] the other way for me. So for example, I had a guy called Mike Smith come to my house [00:42:35] in Wales and he is at the time he was head of Universal Publishing. [00:42:40]

Payman Langroudi: So he came to a house in.

Mike Gray: Wales, in Wales.

Payman Langroudi: So he kind of wanted to blow your [00:42:45] socks off. So this was that.

Mike Gray: Whole sort of romanticising my managing you to sort of he, [00:42:50] he was a romantic at heart to tap into that. And at a time I was living in like a 500 year old [00:42:55] stone house in the depths of Wales. You come across a little bridge over a river and just that [00:43:00] whole story. And so, yeah, he came, he came over from London and, and he signed everyone from like, [00:43:05] Coldplay to George Ezra.

Payman Langroudi: He’d be like a major guy industry.

Mike Gray: He was [00:43:10] the head of Universal Publishing. It was as big as you get. Like in the UK. Massive came to my house [00:43:15] and I played a small set for him in my living room. So I had like this huge PA system, which I bought so I could [00:43:20] just gig myself. And I played this set for just him and my manager and he’s like, cool. [00:43:25] Yeah, you got something, you can do it this way, or you can get involved with us and we do it this and [00:43:30] that side. So I’m like, oh, sign me up. Cool. And sadly, his, his wife, [00:43:35] um, about a week later was diagnosed with cancer. Um, it was horrible story. And you know, [00:43:40] that that trumps my music. Um, but that was that door that opened. [00:43:45]

Payman Langroudi: He disappeared.

Mike Gray: He disappeared. And again, music’s very much you’re attached to the individual. [00:43:50] So it’s not like the company would be like, oh, yeah, come on, we take you on now. No. You’re done. Like [00:43:55] you get signed to a label via by an A&R and they get fired or change. [00:44:00] That’s you done. You’re done. So there was a lot of bad.

Payman Langroudi: Luck came out of your [00:44:05] career at that point.

Mike Gray: Uh, no, I mean, that was things kept moving. Covid, Covid absolutely [00:44:10] put the nail in the coffin for me with music. So it was building ahead, building a team around me. [00:44:15] I had Peppa, Peppa Pig, uh, funding me. Peppa [00:44:20] pig was bankrolling me. So, um, e1 um, uh, [00:44:25] they’re big earners. Peppa Pig, obviously they do lots of [00:44:30] films and that, um, and they were expanding into music. Uh, and I think their big band they had [00:44:35] was like Lumineers. And so I was basically signed up to them. Um, which [00:44:40] is cool because you go, you go to the HQ and they’ve got a little cinema downstairs, and there’s [00:44:45] just Peppa Pig all over the wall and that sort of thing. And, uh. So, uh, yeah, [00:44:50] Peppa Pig was bankrolling me, and, uh, I, yeah, [00:44:55] had a good year lined up for 2020. So I was playing, [00:45:00] uh, some big festivals like Boomtown Boardmasters. So I was going to be [00:45:05] same stage of Kings. Leon Boardmasters uh.

Payman Langroudi: Do they pay?

Mike Gray: Ah, [00:45:10] nothing like. So I’ll be first on when everyone’s sleeping. And I think my [00:45:15] pot for a summer of festivals was up to about 7 or 8 grand if I played them. Um, [00:45:20] you know, you’re not going to sniff at it, but it’s not, you’re not going to live on that.

Payman Langroudi: Do you at least [00:45:25] like have an amazing time because you’re backstage or whatever? Oh, I.

Mike Gray: Know loads of.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Gray: Cool, cool stuff with that. [00:45:30] And, and, uh, but 2020, I had that lined up and then Covid came along. Uh, [00:45:35] and then that was music off.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Just as we talked about the sort of the craziest oral [00:45:40] surgery stories. Yeah. What was the craziest music story you had?

Mike Gray: To be.

Payman Langroudi: Honest.

Mike Gray: It’s [00:45:45] the music is, you know, I’ve got a group of buddies now. I’m into my old [00:45:50] motorbikes. My my old Harleys are choppers and of course, the vaccine. And so I’ve got [00:45:55] a couple old Harleys. I’ve got like 1976, which is I’ve painted like leopard print and built up from [00:46:00] various bits and pieces. And then I’ve got another old Shovelhead 1979 and the [00:46:05] boys are hanging around with for that. No one comes close. I don’t [00:46:10] try and compete along to pieces, but it’s one of those like, you just step back and let him go. [00:46:15] Um, so I would say the music industry is tame compared to those boys.

Payman Langroudi: Really are just. [00:46:20]

Mike Gray: Next level. But it’s, you know, they’re all fantastic, you know, hearts [00:46:25] and that side, but a wild, a wild bunch. But um so music. [00:46:30] Yeah, I didn’t, I was, I wasn’t your typical sort of artist [00:46:35] in that I, I suppose at this point I’m trying. I’m realising that. [00:46:40] Come on, you got to start enjoying this and that. And so again, you know, [00:46:45] I was I was touring with Alabama three and I don’t know um they [00:46:50] famously made a mistake in music is like always take, always play [00:46:55] the long game, take royalties. Um, that side of it. Don’t, don’t go for the cash. Um, [00:47:00] and they um, were approached for the [00:47:05] soundtrack for the Sopranos. Right. And they were offered 80 grand [00:47:10] for the song or royalties and they took the 80 K um, if [00:47:15] they’d taken royalties.

Payman Langroudi: Millions o Sopranos wasn’t famous at that wasn’t famous.

Mike Gray: So in the, [00:47:20] you know, before it’s even a thing. Yeah. Um, and, and so I was, [00:47:25] I was touring with them and I, it felt quite sad because I [00:47:30] started the tour with them and they all came out sort of bright eyed, [00:47:35] bushy tailed. Um, and then, but then you [00:47:40] get the drugs and things like that. And the next day they’re [00:47:45] all like zombies and they’re zombies until 5 p.m. when the next [00:47:50] load of drugs arrives. And that’s getting snorted off the manager’s desk and hell of a show. And they put it on, [00:47:55] which I think in music, a lot of people become dependent on that. It’s like, I can’t perform unless I’m doing [00:48:00] this because otherwise I’m just boring. I haven’t got that side of it. And you know, by the end of the [00:48:05] tour, it’s the same clothes that I started in, and no one’s actually seen any of these [00:48:10] cities because they’ve been sleeping in the tour bus, uh, sleeping off, raving all night. Um, [00:48:15] and yeah, it wasn’t that, so I didn’t fit in in that because, you know, in [00:48:20] my dressing room, it’s like, oh, you know, would you want there just like some tea bags, please? You know, that’d [00:48:25] be me set, you know? And so, uh, yeah, so I was pretty boring in that respect.

Mike Gray: Um, [00:48:30] and so no sort of crazy or too two wild stories. I’ve played some wild gigs, [00:48:35] um, the wildest though being for I won’t name specifics, [00:48:40] but it’s basically the SAS. There was a bunch from about to be shipped out somewhere somewhere [00:48:45] awful. Couldn’t tell me because before I showed up they’re like, oh, can you play this? And I was like, yeah, yeah, sure, sure, [00:48:50] sure. And they’re like, okay, right. No, no photographs. I’m like, all right. Yeah, no, don’t tag anything on social media. [00:48:55] Like nothing. I’m like, all right. And then I got there. I had no idea who the audience was. [00:49:00] And like I said, it was just 80, like bloodthirsty, like trained [00:49:05] killers and ah, get some beer in them. Oh my goodness, it’s [00:49:10] wild. There was fighting going off. There was all sorts like trying to play things being thrown. It [00:49:15] was just absolute carnage because I think you’ve got to have something a little bit sort [00:49:20] of screw loose for SAS. Yeah. And that side.

Payman Langroudi: So and all along that bit [00:49:25] of your journey, you were still being a dentist here and there. Yeah. Paying your bills.

Mike Gray: Part time, you know, [00:49:30] two days a week, something like that. Uh.

Payman Langroudi: So one night. One night you’re playing in front of the SAS. [00:49:35] Next minute you’re doing a scale and polish. Yeah yeah.

Mike Gray: Yeah [00:49:40] yeah. Nhs.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my God.

Mike Gray: Save my time. Which was good. You know it got the numbers in. You [00:49:45] know I wouldn’t take it back. I think it’s a different story now. Like before people had approached me.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:49:50] take issue with that question. Right. Yeah. Because people say yeah take do your three years on the Nash and get your numbers in. [00:49:55] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But in three years doing anything. Yeah. You would have progressed somewhat, [00:50:00] just like three years doing max facts. Yeah. You progressed. Yeah. Three years doing private. [00:50:05] You would progress three years doing anything. You would have progressed. So, so this notion that Nash [00:50:10] is the place to go to progress, I just think every other country in the world, [00:50:15] they don’t do that. Right.

Mike Gray: So and this is I would have disagreed with you ten years [00:50:20] ago, fully agree with you now because.

Payman Langroudi: It’s changed in the last ten years to that. That’s [00:50:25] the that’s what you’re saying. Yeah.

Mike Gray: You don’t get to do anything now. They’re not getting hands on like before I [00:50:30] was doing crowns, bridges, dentures, extractions. Endo, you did the lot. And [00:50:35] so, you know, you got all those numbers. Now it’s they’re not getting [00:50:40] that hands on. So actually.

Payman Langroudi: Why aren’t they. Because the system doesn’t make [00:50:45] sense.

Mike Gray: Just the contract and that now and everything is now. It’s just okay. Yeah. I [00:50:50] get you in give you an exam, emergency treatment, but anything else is going to have to wait or [00:50:55] just refer it on or bounce it on. It’s just so restrictive now. So no, I couldn’t agree with you more now [00:51:00] it’s a shame. And it’s but so yeah, I was part time, [00:51:05] so I never earned any money as well. It’s always that thing. Oh, dentists, you’re rich. And I was, [00:51:10] I was a dentist who was not rich because I didn’t get the money racing bikes. I just earned [00:51:15] enough to pay for my food and my accommodation. Um, music was the same. And, [00:51:20] and, uh, and so yeah, I’d be, yeah, gigging and I used to use work [00:51:25] to recover from the weekends, which I again now. So maybe it’s an age thing. [00:51:30] I’m 40. I need my weekends to recover from work. Yeah. I need to just just chill out and catch up. Otherwise I’m [00:51:35] in trouble. Whereas it was, I would hit Monday absolutely wiped. [00:51:40] So I would sit there and just go through, do what I needed to do and recharge through [00:51:45] my days working and then back out again. Um, and yeah, very different.

Payman Langroudi: How did this turn [00:51:50] into the expert that I see on social media? [00:51:55]

Mike Gray: Oh, luck. No. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:52:00] mean, you know, the, the, the max factor with the surgical skills. Yeah. But the [00:52:05] restorative side.

Mike Gray: Are I was awful. It’s it’s.

Payman Langroudi: So how did you learn? What did.

Mike Gray: You learn? So [00:52:10] Covid came along, put a nail in the coffin the music and going back to that, [00:52:15] working hard versus luck. I was sick of working [00:52:20] really hard and getting nothing. Uh, and and maybe I could try again or whatever. [00:52:25] But dentistry is beautiful. Like the harder you work, the more you get. [00:52:30] It’s a straight graph. It’s fantastic. And that’s that’s not to be sniffed at. [00:52:35] And you see loads of people doing these incredible things. And. But it’s only a very small percent. The [00:52:40] vast majority of people who aren’t near the top, like, for example, with the biking where I was kicking outside the top [00:52:45] 30. Um, yeah, it’s a hard life.

Payman Langroudi: If you’re the number 40 dentist [00:52:50] in the world, you’re on fire, right? Oh, unreal. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mike Gray: 40 dentists in the [00:52:55] UK. Like it’s and it’s just a beautiful thing. You work hard, you get paid more or you progress or you’re there. [00:53:00] Whereas music, I’m busting my balls. And then again, it all goes. And so [00:53:05] I was sick of nothing correlating as it should. Yeah. Um, and so that was when [00:53:10] I always had in the back of my head, like you got dentistry. At some point you’re going to have to knuckle down. Um, we [00:53:15] don’t have to, but it’s not.

Payman Langroudi: A bad guy. You are right. Yeah.

Mike Gray: It’s not a bad fallback. [00:53:20] And so like I said, I absolutely hated it. But as soon as I pulled my finger out of my arse and started [00:53:25] putting that effort into dentistry are the level of satisfaction went straight [00:53:30] up and love what I’m doing. Got into this and got into that and I was very lucky. In [00:53:35] the clinic. I ended up at um in Swansea Parkway clinic in Swansea. Fantastic [00:53:40] clinic, huge clinic. It’s kind of like the gateway to the rest of Wales. There’s nothing [00:53:45] else past that. Stop. So the amount of cases that would [00:53:50] just come that way, whatever you wanted to do, there was cases. And so to, [00:53:55] to hone my skills, there was abundance of patients to sort [00:54:00] of go that way and.

Payman Langroudi: Lots of other experts to talk to. Right? Yeah.

Mike Gray: So it’s one of those places [00:54:05] where there’s a bit of everyone under the roof. Max facts, um, endo perio, uh, [00:54:10] that side of it.

Payman Langroudi: Because I came to your other practice, the lodge. Yeah. Again, very impressive. [00:54:15]

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Very, very impressed. Not many.

Mike Gray: I there’s not many practices. We’ve got a bar next [00:54:20] to the surgery.

Payman Langroudi: Beautifully done.

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And also, you could see it was [00:54:25] a big centre sort of pride. Was it a specialist private.

Mike Gray: So there’s two halves. [00:54:30] Yeah. The half you came to was like the referral centre and the other half is sort of general dentistry. Yeah. [00:54:35] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you knuckled down to dentistry. What did you do. What did you do to.

Mike Gray: Again [00:54:40] this is going back to what you said with the photographer. I very much the crazy thing is restorative. [00:54:45] Other than the SHO job I did for a year um in Cardiff. [00:54:50] Um I’m self-taught. Um so I haven’t done a single restorative [00:54:55] course. So aesthetic wise, whether it’s composite or veneers or that side. And [00:55:00] in that I wouldn’t say it’s the way to do it. If someone says to me, you know, what’s the best way to learn? Go [00:55:05] and learn from someone incredible. You know, that is absolutely the best way. And this is where [00:55:10] at the time, like, I don’t need to do that. I’ve been going on courses. Later, I go on surgical courses [00:55:15] and my tunes changed. I’ve kind of feel like I’ve got a little bit too far with the prosthetic side, where I [00:55:20] don’t get good bang for my buck in what I’m going to learn. So less so, though I could still learn [00:55:25] a lot. Um, and so I just used to just get my head down and [00:55:30] just read around it. Research. I always have a few things in my head of when [00:55:35] the right patient comes along, I’m going to try this. So I’m not scared to try new things. But [00:55:40] what I make sure is that the right patient comes along to try it on. [00:55:45] I don’t just try it on the next person in that they’re chilled. It’s a low lip line. Uh, [00:55:50] you know, if it does go wrong, it’s not the end of the world sort of thing. And so that sort [00:55:55] of attitude, I sort of try things. And again, yeah, I always tend to learn the hard way. Um, [00:56:00] but I’ve just sort of developed and things like, you know, composite are [00:56:05] go and just layer some teeth up in my garage, work it out. Like, how am I getting there? If [00:56:10] it’s an instrument that I want or I can’t just make it. So, um, um. [00:56:15]

Payman Langroudi: So I saw that, um, camera thing. Yeah.

Mike Gray: The bracket a [00:56:20] little bit risky?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Is it just me or is there something about it?

Mike Gray: Uh, I just again, [00:56:25] the way my brain works is I got into my photography, which again is a great [00:56:30] thing to do. Yeah. Um, not just from advertising yourself on that side, but actually reflection [00:56:35] on your work. Um, and again, yeah, go, go [00:56:40] on. Course. You know, that’s make life simple for yourself. Don’t be stupid [00:56:45] like me and just lock yourself in a room for three days and read everything you can about it and that way. [00:56:50] Um, but that’s and I tried the twin flash brackets. [00:56:55] Um, and I found they either had not enough movement or too much. So I’m like, well go in [00:57:00] the garage, hack up a bit of aluminium and knock one up. And I had this ratty bit of kit [00:57:05] that I used for about a year. And I’m like, actually works. I love to just set and forget. [00:57:10] I haven’t got time for faffing. So and I hate the way with particularly the twin flash brackets, [00:57:15] you put it down and it moves there. And the minute anything moves, your flash is in a different place. You’ve got a different [00:57:20] picture, so your befores and afters aren’t consistent or that side of it. And so I knocked up this [00:57:25] and I was like, it kind of works. I should do a proper job of that. So I did a proper job of it and realised how [00:57:30] much, how hard it is to earn money outside of dentistry. Yeah. It’s not, you know, [00:57:35] as in so try a trying to get stuff made in the UK was a nightmare. Um nobody wants [00:57:40] to work. Um so it took me ages trying to, I got my laser cut in Bridgend, then I got them anodised [00:57:45] up in Birmingham and then, uh, laser etched in Port Talbot. And at the [00:57:50] time, you know, it took forever. And then I’m having to thread stuff myself and put stuff together, [00:57:55] box things up, you get an ordinary and you get your emails, and then you’ve got to run it to the post [00:58:00] office and, and.

Payman Langroudi: Then your overall profit on that item £40. It’s like, yeah. [00:58:05]

Mike Gray: And so again, it makes you go, that’s not bad.

Payman Langroudi: I’d rather do it.

Mike Gray: Hard [00:58:10] living in the real world, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Gray: So, um, so I did a bit of that cool thing about that though, is, [00:58:15] you know, because obviously dentistry and limited company and things like that. Um, as long as you attempt to make [00:58:20] profit at something, uh, you can run that through the business. So I can get tools on my limited company. [00:58:25] I love tools, so I’ve got a lathe in the garage and things like that. So hence why I make [00:58:30] some of my own surgical instruments in that I bought some megabucks and I looked at it and I’m like, [00:58:35] I could make that. That’s. So sure enough, I wanted like a pillar elevator for some of the microsurgery [00:58:40] stuff. So I went in the garage and knocked one up on the lathe and use that in my kit, you know? [00:58:45] Um, and so my brain’s always going like that. And so I’m always trying things, always trying things [00:58:50] different. And I think the nice thing, it was the hard way to try and teach myself [00:58:55] and work it out myself, but then it because I wasn’t being told by anyone [00:59:00] how to do it. And often the danger of that is you get shown how to do it. This [00:59:05] is how it’s done. This is how you always do it. Um, because I hadn’t [00:59:10] been shown by anyone, I’d worked out my own way, which allowed me to approach [00:59:15] it completely, sort of in a different way, which which I. You know, I love for that and [00:59:20] that.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a beautiful thing. I mean, one of the. We do this course with Depeche Palmer. [00:59:25] Yeah. And young Depeche Palmer was like you. He [00:59:30] hadn’t been on many courses at all. Yeah. And then his mentor told him maybe. [00:59:35] Don’t. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s all original. Yeah. And some of the [00:59:40] insights that he’s come out with are his own. They’re clearly his own. Yeah. Yeah. [00:59:45] And the danger of going on a lot of education if you want to be a teacher. Is that you’re regurgitating [00:59:50] someone else’s work. And for the, you know, you get the delegates that you see [00:59:55] in lots of different courses, they, they can definitely see, you know, where it’s come from. Yeah, yeah. [01:00:00] Whereas we need people like you and him to come up with [01:00:05] totally new ways of looking at it. Um, because [01:00:10] what the hell is progress in the end, right?

Mike Gray: Oh yeah. I mean, there’s been a huge spike. [01:00:15] I would say, um, since digital dentistry has been on the scene, like [01:00:20] the amount of control it can give you and the things because like, again, if you go to the formal [01:00:25] teaching route, articulators. Facebow. Articulator. I haven’t used one for 5 or 6 [01:00:30] years. I do full mouth rehab all the time. You are. I don’t waste of time. Explain that. So [01:00:35] it basically it makes, in my opinion again, I’ll set some people with this. It makes [01:00:40] it more complicated because you’ve got to. You’ve got the added process of taking [01:00:45] a facebow and registering all that side of things. You’re adding cost and lab side of things. You’re also [01:00:50] adding inaccuracy. There’s just none of that you need to do with digital. Um, because [01:00:55] the beauty of digital, you can. All right, maybe articulator you get a [01:01:00] virtual articulator on something like Exocad, which is the dental software again, use that. [01:01:05] Yeah, I do a lot of my own.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t mean exocad. I mean the virtual articulator. [01:01:10]

Mike Gray: Uh, occasionally. A lot of the time, you don’t need to. You put the tooth in the right place and you’re not going to be [01:01:15] too far off. Um, but the beauty of, of, of digital dentistry is you can transfer. So [01:01:20] I don’t call temporaries temporaries, they’re prototypes and that’s what they are with digital. So [01:01:25] you transfer these prototypes into somebody’s mouth. You can take as long as you want. So the [01:01:30] first full mouth rehab that I approached, um, useless. Didn’t know [01:01:35] what I was doing. Um, as long as you manage the patient’s expectations, which is the biggest thing of any part of [01:01:40] dentistry, managing those expectations, then you [01:01:45] you’re set. So for me on a full mouth rehab, rather than being like, cool, I’m going to prep everything, [01:01:50] put some temporaries on, see how it’s going, and then go to the finals. I’d be like, [01:01:55] oh, this is really difficult. So we’re probably going to take a couple of months to get this bite right [01:02:00] on that side. And so you manage those expectations. And so then I was able to fart around [01:02:05] for as long as I wanted to get it right. And basically you prep the teeth, you put your [01:02:10] prototypes in place and you get your occlusion and everything right where you want. So for me, I [01:02:15] like to put the aesthetics where I want them first, and then I want to make the occlusion work to that aesthetic. [01:02:20] So then I go into the function and you can get your [01:02:25] occlusion exactly where you want it just from tweaking it chairside. And once it’s perfect [01:02:30] and again, if you want, you can send the patient away for a month and, you know, keep dialling it in, make sure [01:02:35] nothing’s broken. And when it’s you feel it’s perfect. Whether you’re reorganising or not, you just [01:02:40] scan. Yeah, you scan that and you, there’s a few little tricks in order to ensure [01:02:45] the accuracy of overlaying scans on one another is good. Um, but if you what. [01:02:50]

Payman Langroudi: Are they, what are.

Mike Gray: They? Oh, just little things that you sort of work out. Like if you’re the [01:02:55] hard thing with laying scans over one another is a point of reference.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:03:00] like a three dimensional point of reference.

Mike Gray: Yeah. So teeth are great for that because they’re hard and they don’t [01:03:05] move and they’re accurate. But if you prep them all well, you’ve just destroyed all your reference points.

Payman Langroudi: So attention [01:03:10] to that fact.

Mike Gray: So little things like if you’re scanning, get a load of the palette. It’s [01:03:15] not the most accurate, but it’s not going to change as much as the sort of buckle surfaces. So that’s one extra. If [01:03:20] I’m doing a full mouth rehab, I like to if I can leave the back teeth untouched, I can easily [01:03:25] come back and do those at the end. So again, you’ve kept your points of reference posteriorly. If you’re prepping [01:03:30] crowns at the front, when you fit your temporaries, just leave the margin showing on the palatal. [01:03:35] So you’ve got another hard point of reference. So you’ve kind of got this three point, uh, match up [01:03:40] with, uh, with your scans. And so they actually match up, which means then you can [01:03:45] accurately record the occlusion. So for example, on my prototypes, I’ll leave the articulating marks. [01:03:50] So the lab have.

Payman Langroudi: Oh before scanning. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Gray: So you leave them on. So they’ve literally [01:03:55] got blue red marks where the occlusion where the guidance isn’t it. Oh, so you know, [01:04:00] okay, I need to get this perfect and there’s a little slice tool they can adapt [01:04:05] the ceramic to. With pretty much 100% accurate 99.99, you [01:04:10] know, fractions of a millimetre out. So accurate they can copy that. And as long as you’re transferring [01:04:15] things accurately, then you’ll come back with the exact occlusion that you had in your prototypes, [01:04:20] which is crazy. So you’re fitting stuff and having perfect canine guidance and all that side. And [01:04:25] there’s just no stress, there’s no stress. And, and I hate that about myself in that when I started [01:04:30] the full mouth rehabs, I’d be like, I can’t wait to get to a stage where I’m not stressing before every appointment. [01:04:35] This is horrible. I’m like, ah, and as soon as I get there, because now, like full mouth rehab does not stress [01:04:40] me. And I’m like, all right, I’m a bit bored now. And so then I’m doing something else. And, and [01:04:45] stupidly, I opened the implant can like, unless you’re willing to dive [01:04:50] in.

Payman Langroudi: Implants is all or nothing.

Mike Gray: Leave it alone. Oh my goodness. And I was slow getting to [01:04:55] it because of the surgical background. And I did a lot of soft tissue stuff and things even before placing. I’ve been [01:05:00] restoring them for way before I started placing. Um, and so I kind of did everything a little [01:05:05] bit ass backwards, but I’m on that implant side now. And yeah, I’ve been at it a couple of years and love it.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:05:10] would you be mad if you didn’t go into the implants, though, with all of your surgical background? You know, [01:05:15] because it’s just, yeah, especially like where you are and all that, you know, the competitions. Yeah. [01:05:20] It needs there’s, there’s a supply issue. Yeah. You need, you need people. [01:05:25] Why is it, what do you think is the difference between someone like you? Who how many [01:05:30] full mouth rehabs do you do now? Like, uh, how often do you do you do it?

Mike Gray: It’s the different [01:05:35] I because I get bored doing the same thing. I do a [01:05:40] lot of different things. And so re like a full mouth rehab, I’ll [01:05:45] have, you know, sort of maybe one going a month or something like that.

Payman Langroudi: So someone like you, the difference in someone like [01:05:50] you, who’s, who’s throwing yourself in, reinventing the wheel, you know, [01:05:55] like making your own tricks and tips and tricks up. And then I come across [01:06:00] a bunch of people paralysed by anxiety about being [01:06:05] sued and, and all that. Like you could if you could think to yourself, Jesus, [01:06:10] dude, I’ve made my own instruments. Yeah, I’ve put this into this [01:06:15] guy’s mouth. What if something goes wrong? Yeah, but you’re not thinking that, is it? The fact that [01:06:20] you’ve been through these much harder things that makes dentistry look a bit more like child’s [01:06:25] play?

Mike Gray: I mean, that’s a good point in that I get stressed, I definitely get stressed.

Payman Langroudi: And what stresses. [01:06:30]

Mike Gray: You? Um, I the biggest thing is, is when [01:06:35] I mess up or I don’t do as well as I feel I should have. And that’s not necessarily healthy. And I think [01:06:40] a lot of us are unhealthy in that way as sort of self-criticism and beating ourselves up. Um, but that’s [01:06:45] probably the biggest thing when, when I know I can’t blame it on anything or anyone but [01:06:50] myself, that’s when I’m like, oof, I’m gonna have to take five minutes. And I used to struggle. It [01:06:55] used to play on a bit, but now it’s like, all right, I’ll have a sulk. I’ll sit in those emotions and I will [01:07:00] get past it. But it’s a good point, and I think a lot of it comes [01:07:05] to calculated risk. So you’re going back to the mountain bikes. Um, it’s like, [01:07:10] oh, you know, aren’t you scared of crashing? You are scared of falling off your bike or that side of things. And, [01:07:15] and it’s no, you’re doing it day in, day out. And it’s, you’ve built your skill up to a level [01:07:20] where it’s a calculated risk. And so it’s, it’s the same as, you know, what [01:07:25] was it like when you drove a car for the first time? It’s scary as hell. Like you don’t shit your pants every time [01:07:30] you go in a car. Now you respect it, but it’s that side. And so I suppose it’s that sort of perspective. [01:07:35] It’s like, you know, and for example, the downhill race, you fly all the way to, uh, [01:07:40] you know, uh, you know, Canada or anywhere across the world, you’ve got to, you [01:07:45] sat on the start line, you’ve got a TV camera in your face, you’ve got one run three minutes to get it right and [01:07:50] putting your life on the line. Um, that’s the sort of pressure, you know, or you’re [01:07:55] on stage or that side of it, um, or playing for somebody in your living room, [01:08:00] you know. Uh, and that’s that sort of pressure.

Payman Langroudi: And so it seems a little bit easier than those things. [01:08:05] Yeah.

Mike Gray: But then it’s down under. I still respect it in a [01:08:10] healthy way. And I, and I think a lot of us don’t realise how hard it is and how stressful it is. It’s, [01:08:15] it’s just insane. Yeah. It’s and it sounds really bad because, um, [01:08:20] my wife’s American, I met her in, um, through the music, so, [01:08:25] you know, good thing out of the music. I was in Nashville, I was doing some songwriting there.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, was she like a groupie?

Mike Gray: Uh, no, not at all. Not [01:08:30] at all. Just unimpressed. Um, I met her at a little dive bar in Nashville, [01:08:35] and I managed to convince her that Newport was better than Nashville.

Payman Langroudi: Where everything is.

Mike Gray: Now. But, [01:08:40] um. So, uh. Yeah. So, uh, it’s. [01:08:45] Oh, where was I going with that? I got, got caught up [01:08:50] in, in my wife being mad at me, and I’ve lost my train of thought.

Payman Langroudi: Dentistry is difficult.

Mike Gray: Oh, yeah, that [01:08:55] was it. And so this year we opened up. Uh. Up last year, now 25, we opened up an Airbnb in [01:09:00] Nashville. Um, okay. And, but that’s a project, you know, I give you some cash for it and that [01:09:05] sort of thing. And so she’s, she’s now responsible. And, and she was getting stressed and secretly, [01:09:10] I enjoyed it a little bit until that stress started getting taken out on me because I didn’t [01:09:15] realise how much stress I coped with on a daily basis. Um, [01:09:20] and just took it as normal. And the vast majority of [01:09:25] people don’t, uh, on that side.

Payman Langroudi: And so when I stopped dentistry for [01:09:30] five years and then started again the first two [01:09:35] weeks, you, you suddenly realise, oh my God, is this what [01:09:40] I used to do? Yeah, yeah. And just turning up bitch.

Mike Gray: Oh [01:09:45] man.

Payman Langroudi: And to turn up then, then now, now on, on stage for [01:09:50] that many hours. Yeah. And the weird thing about it was I was, I was trying to do enlighten [01:09:55] at the same time. Yeah. The only time you’ve got is just like weird, like lunchtime [01:10:00] or. It depends how you run your book. Right? I used to run long, long appointments, [01:10:05] so I used to get like 15, 20 minutes here and there. Yeah. And if you want to do anything, at the end of the [01:10:10] day, you’re pretty much burnt out. Yeah. Especially in private. I found private, [01:10:15] you know, would burn your brain. Yeah. Nhs would burn your body almost. Yeah. It [01:10:20] was that hard. Yeah. Your soul. Yeah. Um, so you’re right. It [01:10:25] it is a lot of stress. And the empathy side is important [01:10:30] and tiring. Yeah.

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I’ve said this before, my, my cousin who I saw last [01:10:35] night, he’s a, he’s an eye surgeon. Yeah. He says when, when the patient’s not either [01:10:40] heavily sedated or, or GA, he has a much more stressful [01:10:45] day than when he’s doing a GA list. Right. Because he goes but la inside people’s eyes. Yeah. [01:10:50] And that anxiety comes and you know, we’ve got that at a level continuously [01:10:55] all the time.

Mike Gray: And unfortunately, everyone hates you, even if they’re nice [01:11:00] about it. Oh well. Big change from my practice now though, which I’ll come on to. But have you heard of like, [01:11:05] you must have heard of compassion fatigue?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And your mental health [01:11:10] wise.

Mike Gray: Yeah. And so that’s, that’s a real thing in like the therapy world where everyone’s coming and [01:11:15] trauma dumping on you. And if you’re not careful, you’ll soak it up like a sponge. So like therapists [01:11:20] and that they get up and they have different ways to combat it. Like something might just be stand up, shake your arms and [01:11:25] legs or run your hands under some sort of running water. They check in with their own therapists [01:11:30] every couple of weeks. And in dentistry, we get that every day. It’s like even [01:11:35] the the there’s plenty of people that outright be like, I hate you. I’m [01:11:40] like, oof, okay. And then, but there’s other people that are really polite about it, [01:11:45] but all their body language is telling you, I’m scared of you, I hate you. Um, and [01:11:50] you take so much.

Payman Langroudi: So funny that we take that personally. I mean, I don’t. [01:11:55]

Mike Gray: Like the massive difference now.

Payman Langroudi: Just the words themselves.

Mike Gray: So I purely do, like I said, [01:12:00] aesthetic and surgical dentistry, it’s all elective side of things. Yeah. Everyone [01:12:05] wants to be there. So nobody moans about the injection. Nobody moans about paying, nobody moans [01:12:10] about that. It’s it’s a completely different approach. And I didn’t realise that big wave [01:12:15] that was lifted. And when I started seeing these patients versus my [01:12:20] average day, and I’m doing way more complex and difficult stuff, but that burden is way lighter. [01:12:25]

Payman Langroudi: You’re right on.

Mike Gray: That.

Payman Langroudi: Side. The other thing is, uh, my, my, [01:12:30] um, two kids had ortho. Yeah, one normal ortho [01:12:35] and the other Dental monitoring ortho. Yeah. And Dental monitoring ortho [01:12:40] only visited five times or something. Yeah, yeah. And as a dentist, you [01:12:45] think, oh, that’s like the number of hours that she spent with my daughters. Not many hours. And we paid all [01:12:50] this money, but from the from the other side of it. Hell. Great man. Like going to the dentist. [01:12:55] Yeah. Is not pleasant. How much we think we make our waiting rooms nice. [01:13:00] And yeah, it’s not a pleasant going anywhere. It’s not pleasant to somebody.

Mike Gray: That enjoys that there. The scary patients.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:13:05] yeah. Like going to the hairdresser isn’t pleasant. Like spending.

Mike Gray: Time. Like people [01:13:10] hate the dentist. Oh my my, this is my bubble, my personal space. And you’re in.

Payman Langroudi: It.

Mike Gray: You know, you can tell [01:13:15] I don’t like the hairdresser. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s it’s pleasant going to a restaurant or going to a doing [01:13:20] some sports or going to a show or it’s, it’s not pleasant going to any form of therapist, [01:13:25] right? It’s like, you know, but we fool ourselves because we’re having sometimes meaningful relationships [01:13:30] with the patients. We fool ourselves into thinking they’re having as much fun as we are. Yeah.

Mike Gray: And [01:13:35] that’s, and that’s why I think I love, you know, education. I think that’s so important. [01:13:40] You know, we were talking about before. So for example, the course I run poise protocol. Um, what’s it called. [01:13:45] Poise protocol poise poise. Yeah. So path of insertion and structural enhancement. It’s basically [01:13:50] that goes in my head the minute I approach anything indirect. It doesn’t matter what it is [01:13:55] because I’m asking myself, cool. So is there a path of insertion for the ceramic? [01:14:00] Yes or no? Do I need to create one? And structural enhancement. You know, is there enough strength [01:14:05] in the material I’m using and the tooth that I’m putting on? And when you think about it like that, you’re [01:14:10] always going to do the right thing for the tooth. And what the crazy thing, which it blows my mind, [01:14:15] which I feel everyone should know from the aesthetic side, is you [01:14:20] can provide ceramic veneers so, so minimally invasive [01:14:25] in that way. And it’s, I think I’ve gone full [01:14:30] circle in like everyone’s done composite, everyone jumps on composite and composite is [01:14:35] great. It is fantastic. It has its place.

Payman Langroudi: It’s fantastic. But you wouldn’t have it in your [01:14:40] own mouth, isn’t it? I mean, I’ve got it. My front teeth, my teeth.

Mike Gray: Have had a hammering, you know, again [01:14:45] relating to lifestyle.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but but tell me, explain it to me because so you’re saying a virtually [01:14:50] no prep. Yeah. So indirect porcelain veneer that you’re bringing [01:14:55] in in a, the path of insertion is not, not the normal path.

Mike Gray: So again. [01:15:00]

Payman Langroudi: Is that what you’re.

Mike Gray: Saying? When I started looking into that, because again, I was sick of comments like if anyone who does a lot [01:15:05] of composite, I don’t care what people are telling you with courses, the good educators will tell you the truth [01:15:10] about composite and that it’s fantastic, but you’re going to get chips, you’re going to get stains unforgiving. [01:15:15] Yeah, absolutely. And and it has its place. It’s perfect for anything that for me that it isn’t full [01:15:20] coverage, it’s composites. Great. Anything that’s full coverage. So, you [01:15:25] know, veneer ceramics, ceramics, way better. I, I had [01:15:30] one veneer fail in the last five years. I do not have veneer fractures or problems [01:15:35] or stains in my diary. It’s just not there. I am way less stressed with the ceramic [01:15:40] because I know I’m going to put that there. I have my protocols right and I’m not going to see him again. It’s [01:15:45] you know, it’s fantastic. And basically when I started looking into the whole prep list, because [01:15:50] I don’t, I like to try and be as minimally invasive as possible, which is different as an aesthetic dentist. I don’t [01:15:55] use cosmetic. That’s a dirty word in America. Um, so aesthetic dentist [01:16:00] side. And, um, when I approached it, I went to the lab a lucky [01:16:05] again in that a good relationship with my lab.

Mike Gray: And I got a really good lab technician, Anthony Bailey and Cardiff, [01:16:10] um, prime ceramics and we’re good buddies now because I’ve been back and forth for years and, [01:16:15] um, so I’m in there pretty much most weeks and he’s taught me all my ceramics. Like I do all my ceramic, [01:16:20] I do all the CAD side. He’s been my mentor through all of that. And when I first approached [01:16:25] him about ceramic, he’s like, um, felspathic. That’s the cool thing. That’s like [01:16:30] the sort of the, the creme de la creme sort of, of that side. And to [01:16:35] find someone to do feldspathic, um, well is difficult. Um, [01:16:40] you need a really talented clinician. And then when you look at the flexural strength, it’s like 70 [01:16:45] megapascals. It’s less than flowable composite. Um, and obviously you put it on a solid [01:16:50] base. You get that strength. So he said to me, call Feldspathic is really weak and it’s really hard for [01:16:55] someone to do it. And in the dentistry side of things, we’re kind of told, oh, stars need to align [01:17:00] to do prep less because it’s just not for everyone. And so [01:17:05] immediately I was like, well, I don’t want to dedicate my time and effort learning [01:17:10] about a material that was invented in the 70s that’s difficult to do [01:17:15] and not very strong.

Mike Gray: So I’m like, okay, well, how are we going to get the benefits of that out [01:17:20] of modern materials? And so you look at like the lithium disilicate urimax is like your sort of your trade [01:17:25] name and things like that. And, um, you can place, [01:17:30] uh, lithium disilicate 0.3 mils thick, which [01:17:35] is nothing. So if you’re not prepping, you’re not exactly adding massive bulk. When you look at margins, [01:17:40] okay, well, we need a margin. In my head, it was like, okay, I have to prep a margin. [01:17:45] Otherwise there’s going to be a big ledge. Oh yeah. And you’re going to have bacteria in the you look [01:17:50] at the papers. Um, you get more longevity with, with propolis [01:17:55] because you’ve left all that enamel there. Gingiva is healthy. And again, so you look at bop concepts [01:18:00] and that side of it, there’s no margins there and [01:18:05] everything’s completely healthy. It’s more about that sort of profile of what’s going on. You look at implants, you [01:18:10] know, a huge obviously it needs to be the right shape. But, you know, there’s no such thing as [01:18:15] a margin there. So you don’t actually need margins. And then with digitally you can act.

Payman Langroudi: So there’s an [01:18:20] actual ledge.

Mike Gray: Uh, so.

Payman Langroudi: A very thin one.

Mike Gray: No, no, no, no, there’s no ledge knowledge. You don’t prep a [01:18:25] margin at all.

Payman Langroudi: No. But so now you’ve got this veneer on there. How, how is it as long as you.

Mike Gray: Have [01:18:30] a nice smooth transition onto it. So not a square edge, then things are happy. And [01:18:35] again, digitally you can accurately place them. 0.3mm Subgingivally super [01:18:40] easy to do that with, with modern sort of digital scanners. And the beauty of it is [01:18:45] with modern scanners, you can scan a mouth. And when I say the stars need to align [01:18:50] path of insertion, point, path of insertion, you have to have a path of insertion for the ceramic to go [01:18:55] on. When you actually analyse it digitally, you can move it around and roughly [01:19:00] for a veneer you coming from the labial, but I like to come a bit of like 45 degrees to the incisal. [01:19:05] If you come to labial, gingiva starts getting in the way, but by immediately coming labial, you’ve been minimally [01:19:10] invasive. You have to remove less tooth structure. So you start fighting around with these scans, [01:19:15] um approaching from the labial. And the beautiful thing is they have [01:19:20] buttons that you can identify undercuts. See it’s not meant for [01:19:25] this. It’s meant for checking your prep. And have I got rid of it. You just put that on [01:19:30] on prep tooth, move it around a bit. It shows you exactly where the undercuts are.

Payman Langroudi: For that path of insertion. [01:19:35]

Mike Gray: That path of insertion. You change the view to path Preferences and you can fart around and it [01:19:40] shows you exactly where those paths of insertions are. So what I do then is I work out the best approach [01:19:45] for each tooth, the um as far as path of insertion. And [01:19:50] it highlights in blue depending on what sort of software you’re using. Um, but most [01:19:55] scanners will have an undercut button on there and you can create a preparation map and it, [01:20:00] it shows you exactly the bit of tooth you need to remove in order to create a path for insertion. [01:20:05] And what you will realise is it’s bugger all apps. So a full arch [01:20:10] of preps will take me five minutes in that you just get a little disk and you [01:20:15] go, yeah, yeah, according to your preparation map and a veneer is going to go on there. Um, [01:20:20] and, and other than structural enhancement with veneers, sharp line angles, [01:20:25] things like that, that you need to smooth off so you don’t have crack propagation. There’s nothing to do. [01:20:30] So a prep mouth looks untouched. I don’t numb them up. I do it as a point to [01:20:35] demonstrate to the patient, I’m not hacking your teeth to bits. And so it’s [01:20:40] incredibly minimally invasive. Like truly invasive. Because my argument against composite [01:20:45] is, you know, I think it’s false advertising when you say teeth are untouched [01:20:50] because this isn’t going to last forever. What happens when you take it off and they say, oh, I’ll be careful and [01:20:55] I’ll take that. Even polishing by nature is removing tooth structure. That’s the act of polishing. And [01:21:00] I see cases where they’ve had 2 or 3 lots of composite that I’m redoing. [01:21:05] And you take that composite off. That’s not a virgin tooth underneath. Someone’s been a bit slack or a bit rushed [01:21:10] or a bit lazy or just they’ve had so much. It is not an untouched tooth. And so you do that [01:21:15] 3 or 4 times, or you have ceramic where you’ve carefully according [01:21:20] digitally and super accurately recontoured this tooth and you’ve [01:21:25] got a veneer that’s going to last 15, 20 years and you’re not touching. And so it’s.

Payman Langroudi: How do you avoid the tooth [01:21:30] being bulky?

Mike Gray: It’s not 0.3 mil like.

Payman Langroudi: Across the whole thing.

Mike Gray: Yeah. You can have [01:21:35] 0.3 mil thickness and, and so that side of it, and obviously you can thicken it out way more [01:21:40] like the big thing for me. Yeah. The big thing for me on volume is lip line. [01:21:45] If somebody, as a general rule of thumb, if somebody’s got a high lip line, you want to keep the volume down because otherwise they look like [01:21:50] those sort of stuck on bits of teeth. Um, but yeah, you’re adding.

Payman Langroudi: Typically, are you doing [01:21:55] sort of a line bleach then that.

Mike Gray: Oh yeah, I’m a massive pro ortho before, like I [01:22:00] said, it’s uh, if someone’s, uh, the question I asked myself is, is this [01:22:05] patient going to die with their teeth by the time I finish with them? And if they are [01:22:10] older, I will give them the option of prepping versus not prepping. I still prefer not to prep. So even if somebody comes [01:22:15] to me in their 50s and they’re like, I want full mouth veneers, I’m like, cool, give me a good reason not [01:22:20] to do ortho because everyone’s life is easier. Uh, you know, my life as far as preps, [01:22:25] masking whatever is easier. But I say, look, best thing for you to do is to ortho first. But if they [01:22:30] say no, I’m like, fine. As long as it’s not crazy and I’m not hacking away too much to structure. I’ll be like, cool, I’ll [01:22:35] prep a younger patient. I don’t even give him a choice. I was like, no, you want veneers? It’s also first or nothing. Um, [01:22:40] and that side and again, coming back to the prep list, way easier to [01:22:45] do a full mouth than it is 1 or 2 teeth talking about that book. Because if you start back here, 0.3 [01:22:50] mil doesn’t look like you’ve added anything, um, onto the front, even if you start at the back. So works [01:22:55] a lot easier with, with, uh, sort of full teeth and things like that.

Payman Langroudi: So, and then [01:23:00] when you come to cement, um, each one of them is going in at a different angle. [01:23:05]

Mike Gray: No, you be pretty much going at that sort of 4545. [01:23:10]

Payman Langroudi: Generally.

Mike Gray: It’s your conventional veneer approach when you just wiggle it around a little bit [01:23:15] to, to keep it minimal, that’s all you’re doing. And you don’t want to go too [01:23:20] crazy with your approach because particularly on veneers, if you’re going too far from like, say, [01:23:25] laterally you, that’s when you have to start or I have to cement this one first and then that one. So [01:23:30] you want to keep it fairly, but again, it will blow your mind. I haven’t got my laptop [01:23:35] in my bag. I’ll show you after like how minimal it is that you’re actually to create [01:23:40] a path of insertion for every single tooth in the head. The vast majority, like you’ll have 4 or 5 teeth. Don’t touch. [01:23:45] Don’t even touch them. Um, and so that that world of prep is [01:23:50] just rather than being able to do it on 5% of people, you’re up to like 90% [01:23:55] of people. And the cool thing is, you know, I’d love to save enamel [01:24:00] everywhere in that the number of cases I see now where somebody’s prepped a full mouth, [01:24:05] um, conventional veneers, you’d think could I’ve done that a different way and that side. [01:24:10]

Payman Langroudi: And I think without, without prep you’ve got a much better bond, right.

Mike Gray: Oh yeah. No, I [01:24:15] mean, because the main success of a veneer is, I mean obviously you can look at occlusion and that not [01:24:20] to enamel. Yeah. It’s it’s that bond. And and you’ve left it all there. It’s there’s acres of it. [01:24:25] You couldn’t have a better starting point as to where you want to go. So yeah, [01:24:30] it’s awesome in that side and digital makes that all possible.

Payman Langroudi: Did you come up with this yourself? [01:24:35]

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like there wasn’t another guy in Peru who I saw.

Mike Gray: I mean, there’s a lot of things that [01:24:40] I think I’ve been clever and invented, and I’m probably not the first person, but.

Payman Langroudi: But you just came up with this yourself. You just step by [01:24:45] step by step.

Mike Gray: Five years. Yeah. That that sort of way. Interesting. And it’s, it’s, it’s, I love [01:24:50] it. I absolutely love it.

Payman Langroudi: So is that what your course teaches this?

Mike Gray: Yeah, yeah. And it’s basically I don’t [01:24:55] teach the conventional prep side because you can get that everywhere else. But the whole workflow of, [01:25:00] you know, planning to smile design to, um, actually, [01:25:05] yeah, executing and cementing and, and sort of all that side. [01:25:10] Um, but then yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Where’d you run the course?

Mike Gray: So I run that a lodge, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Lodge.

Mike Gray: Itself. Yeah. Lodge [01:25:15] itself. I like to keep smaller numbers. Um, we’ve been three years sold out now, which is cool. [01:25:20] Um, I need to.

Payman Langroudi: Do it once a year.

Mike Gray: About twice a year, twice a year. So I need to [01:25:25] release some dates. Um, but again, going back to the core side, [01:25:30] I love to create a space where people can just come and speak to other [01:25:35] like minded people, because such a stressful profession as we talked about it. And so come [01:25:40] and let your hair down. If you want to learn, you can learn. But you know, I put people I got to stop because [01:25:45] I don’t make any money. I don’t that’s the business side of me that’s useless. But I put people up in [01:25:50] a five star hotel, nice food, getting some wine tasting or whisky tasting. And [01:25:55] I had an ice cream van and barbecue at the last one. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I think, I think, I [01:26:00] think education needs a shake up.

Mike Gray: Oh no. But.

Payman Langroudi: You know, in this sense, it’s awesome.

Mike Gray: And I [01:26:05] love what you were talking about earlier, where you’re effectively getting a sort of a really [01:26:10] cool space to get everyone together.

Payman Langroudi: So we’re doing this thing at Ministry of Sound. Yeah. Which [01:26:15] I think you’re going to be at. So that would be great. Yeah. Yeah, that’ll be great. Check your diary. Yeah, [01:26:20] it’s.

Mike Gray: I think I did, like I said, with the American wife, as long as it’s not you saying it’s June.

Payman Langroudi: June, June [01:26:25] 30th.

Mike Gray: June 13th? Yes, as long as it’s not July 4th, Independence Day, you’re there. I [01:26:30] should be there. I set, I’m set. Otherwise, I’m on a lake, eating hot dogs, drinking beer and watching fireworks.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s [01:26:35] so interesting. Like, you know, the guy who invented Invisalign was some sort of banker. [01:26:40] Yeah. And it’s sometimes you have to zoom out or not be in [01:26:45] it. Yeah. To come up with solutions that are, you know, like, in a [01:26:50] way, it’s so interesting. You haven’t been on any cosmetics courses or particularly hadn’t [01:26:55] been on any cosmetic courses by the time you started coming up with this solution. Yeah. Um, [01:27:00] and yet look at it from a different angle. And I’m quite surprised at what you’re saying [01:27:05] about the margin that the, the margin isn’t an issue. Yeah. And, but you’re right in that, in that sort of [01:27:10] vertebrate world, we. Yeah.

Mike Gray: No you don’t.

Payman Langroudi: No one’s worried.

Mike Gray: About. I can show you, you know three [01:27:15] five year post-doc with. And we can all we all know what healthy gingiva looks like. Yeah. Brand new. Uh, [01:27:20] and, uh, yeah, it’s it’s, uh, The biggest question I get [01:27:25] whenever I talk on it is, is like, what about the gum health? Yeah. And because [01:27:30] it just doesn’t make sense. And that’s where you kind of condition. But it’s. Yeah. No.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:27:35] are you bad at?

Mike Gray: Uh.

Payman Langroudi: Bad dentistry.

Mike Gray: Yeah. [01:27:40] Um, things that involve patience, as [01:27:45] in not physical patience. The the act of being patient. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Short. [01:27:50]

Mike Gray: So Endo, for example. I’m good at endo. I was been a while. Yeah. Um, [01:27:55] I opened my first tooth over the Christmas period, um, for a long time and I was, I was, I [01:28:00] was, I’m working like, where are these canals? How many are there? Okay. Right. It’s a molar. Uh, but [01:28:05] it came back. Oh yeah. No, we got out [01:28:10] of pain, so succeeded there. But um, things like endo, [01:28:15] endo and I did great until it [01:28:20] got fiddly And I just got too impatient and I would snap something [01:28:25] or ledge something. And that was it. Like orthodontics. I, I [01:28:30] want it done now. I want it done now. And this is something I struggle with [01:28:35] on the surgical side because you have to wait for everything to mature. And I don’t. So like, you [01:28:40] know, I get a case I’m really excited to finish, but I’m going to do this bone graft now and then I’m going to wait four months and [01:28:45] then I’m going to sort of vertically graft the tissue and wait another four months. And then I’m going to condition [01:28:50] it to develop the Pontic site. And so 12, 18 months later I might get to the end. [01:28:55] And, and I struggle with that because I just want it now. And so yeah, anything [01:29:00] that sort of involves patience is my mind goes because I just want it.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:29:05] about Lifewise? What’s the like.

Mike Gray: Failure?

Payman Langroudi: I’d say.

Mike Gray: It’s failure. [01:29:10] Um, in that.

Payman Langroudi: Punish yourself mentally.

Mike Gray: No, it’s I’m just I [01:29:15] think I should imagine there’s a lot of dentists like this is. And you’re a high achiever, [01:29:20] right, to get into dental school. So you’ve done well in school. You’ve done well in university and [01:29:25] on that side. And so dealing with failure isn’t [01:29:30] something you’re used to. And this is where I suffered in the music. Uh, [01:29:35] the setbacks and things there. It’s I expected, oh, you work hard, you do this [01:29:40] and you pass. Um, and so that door opens and you move on [01:29:45] and somebody goes, nah, I don’t like that. Closes the door. I [01:29:50] couldn’t deal with that. It’s like I’m a failure. I’m no good. I’m not. And whereas you look at [01:29:55] people that deal with failure, which is most of life and most of business, it’s handling that rejection. [01:30:00] Uh, and, and you do because it’s something like, is it the Mormons? Like there’s a real, uh, [01:30:05] high percentage of the sort of the entrepreneurs, um, because they spend [01:30:10] first two years of their adulthood get sent on like pilgrimage and, and door [01:30:15] to door rejection, everyone slamming the door in their face. And so somebody [01:30:20] else closing a door. It means nothing to them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Gray: Somebody closes a door on me, I fall apart. [01:30:25]

Payman Langroudi: I saw this thing on probably on TikTok or something. It was like, if you if your kid [01:30:30] is top of his class and good at sports and all that, he hasn’t come across resilience [01:30:35] against rejection and failure, you know? And [01:30:40] I thought about my daughter, like she, she goes to ballet. She goes to ballet every week, every week. [01:30:45] She’s not the top of her class at ballet. She’s not here, but she keeps on going. Yeah. And I [01:30:50] was thinking, man, you know, if you give that much time to something, at least give it to something that you’re going to be like really [01:30:55] into or whatever. And then when I saw this, I thought, at least she’s building that muscle, [01:31:00] right? That muscle of resilience muscle, you know, which is a really important thing [01:31:05] in adulthood. Right? Definitely.

Mike Gray: Because unfortunately, that is life. Yeah. You know, [01:31:10] and.

Payman Langroudi: You get knocked back in life.

Mike Gray: Right? Yeah. So much. And, and that side. And that’s where [01:31:15] I wish I’m getting better. Um, but I’m so I’m building [01:31:20] that resilience a bit late.

Payman Langroudi: I’m quite interested in this question here of on in any endeavour, whether [01:31:25] it’s one of your ones that even or even, you know, photography or whatever in any [01:31:30] endeavour. Yeah. How much should you rely on resilience and just keep going and [01:31:35] keep going and keep going. And how do you know when’s the time to pivot? You [01:31:40] know, and, and I guess there’s no clear answer to that question. Yeah, [01:31:45] but but for instance, with me, the notion of giving up on something just doesn’t [01:31:50] cross my mind. So I tend to hold on to things a bit too long. Yeah, yeah. [01:31:55] Like sometimes my, my business partner, he’s great. He’s unemotional about he’s just like, let’s kill that product. [01:32:00] Yeah. And I just, I, I’m just so attached to it.

Mike Gray: But that’s, and that’s where I’d make a terrible CEO. [01:32:05] Um, I think I see myself as that I’m the type of person that [01:32:10] a CEO would love to get on board because they’re just fanatical and whatever. And [01:32:15] they work hard. Um, but that’s the whole point of, you know, them [01:32:20] trying to make it successful. You want lots of people around it. You can’t do all that yourself joking.

Payman Langroudi: You’re bad at [01:32:25] delegating or trusting other people.

Mike Gray: Terrible. Again.

Payman Langroudi: Control freak.

Mike Gray: Yes. [01:32:30] It’s less a control freak. And it’s again, without sounding too arrogant, I’m good at a lot of things. And so [01:32:35] to do a good job, often it’s, you know, you want a job, you probably do it yourself. And [01:32:40] so a lot of the time, I do a lot of things myself because of the quality or level that [01:32:45] I want it done. However you just.

Payman Langroudi: Limiting. Yeah.

Mike Gray: You can’t, you hit a [01:32:50] ceiling very quickly.

Payman Langroudi: One thing I’ve learned here is that if you’re giving a job to someone, [01:32:55] by the way, I’m not the best delegator. My best partner is excellent at it. I’m really not that great. But [01:33:00] if you give a job to someone, something. Let’s take it like, I don’t know, I was running the social media of [01:33:05] enlightened myself. Yeah. In the first whenever five years of social media. Yeah. [01:33:10] Right. Then it got to a point where I’d give it to someone. There’s going to be a dip. Yeah, there’s going to be a [01:33:15] period of time where that person’s doing it worse than what you were doing it. Yeah. Yeah. [01:33:20] And you’ve got to be like, allow that dip to happen. Bearing [01:33:25] in mind once you’ve done it a few times, that at one point that person’s going to be doing it much better than you. Yeah. Because [01:33:30] that person’s 100% focussed on that thing. Yeah. But some perfectionist types, [01:33:35] they can’t face that dip. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember like seeing some of our output [01:33:40] at that moment thinking, oh, you know, that’s not my brand. Yeah. Yeah. But [01:33:45] and I think through laziness, I didn’t address it. Right. But then this person ended up being much better than [01:33:50] me at that. Yeah. Yeah. I went on some course, you know, like completely focussed on that. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Gray: And it’s, [01:33:55] I think my wife’s good for that one in that I will fret over like stupid things. And she [01:34:00] used to, she did jewellery design for about ten years. And in that world everyone’s stealing everyone else’s [01:34:05] ideas and this sort of thing. And I’m like, I’m trying to come up with these inventions. And like, I worry that this [01:34:10] leaked or something like that, I’m like, oh, it’s going to get copied. And she’s like, shut up.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You’re [01:34:15] fine.

Mike Gray: Um, on that side. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: Chuck, are you going to do your own practice? [01:34:20]

Mike Gray: Should really potentially purely because I [01:34:25] would love to have that control of how things are. But then again, there’s [01:34:30] so many things that I love to spend my time doing now, which I know I would have to sacrifice. [01:34:35] That’s true. And, um, so for example, again, going back, I suppose I say I’m [01:34:40] bad at delegating, but then I think with my education, like obviously now I’m taking it seriously. [01:34:45] Um, I’ve been smarter about that in that, for example, [01:34:50] I gatecrashed, I forget what university it was and they had like a sort of a paper reading [01:34:55] day, um, a literary review and um, the person leading [01:35:00] it at the start said, you know, why do we make you do this? Um, and [01:35:05] it was because even though you can read summaries of these papers [01:35:10] and all that, and it’s an abstract put for you. You. If unless you read it [01:35:15] the paper yourself, you won’t generate your response. And it might be different [01:35:20] to what somebody else has done. And I think that’s a valid point. But for me, I’m [01:35:25] just going to ask somebody that I trust that’s read the paper, and then I don’t have to spend my time [01:35:30] reading a paper from 1985. Uh, I can spend.

Payman Langroudi: It these days. Ai, right?

Mike Gray: Well, [01:35:35] yeah, there’s that side that summarises. Great. Um, but it’s, I [01:35:40] can then put my time into learning CAD. I can, you know, learn 3d printing. I can [01:35:45] on that side. And so I’m still working just as hard as somebody else. And, but I’m terrible [01:35:50] at quoting papers and that’s like absolutely useless. But then you just have.

Payman Langroudi: Does it stress you that someone’s [01:35:55] going to turn up on your course and bedazzle you with like, uh, [01:36:00] science from another.

Mike Gray: Absolutely. And I think.

Payman Langroudi: I tell you, you’re a charlatan. [01:36:05]

Mike Gray: That’s every lecturer’s nightmare, I think, and I’ve been fortunate [01:36:10] in that I certainly with my course, it’s a lot of. It’s been word of mouth [01:36:15] and everyone who wants to do it is really passionate and they just want to be there. [01:36:20] And so everyone’s been awesome. It’s been incredible. And I think I’m [01:36:25] sure I will get that if it keeps building and then somebody’s doing it because they feel they ought [01:36:30] to do it because their bodies did it or they need to keep up and, and, and, and that side and [01:36:35] the best approach I find is just to be honest and say, I don’t know, you [01:36:40] know, you could have a point.

Payman Langroudi: I so respect people who say, I don’t know.

Mike Gray: Yeah. And, and, and [01:36:45] it’s because as well, you’ve got to be careful. I learned this, [01:36:50] um, uh, I lectured in UPenn last year. Um, and, [01:36:55] uh.

Payman Langroudi: How’d that come about?

Mike Gray: Uh, Celine. Uh, [01:37:00] Celine. Yeah. Yeah. So she’s.

Payman Langroudi: She’s there.

Mike Gray: Now. She’s there now. And so I know [01:37:05] her. And then, um. Marcus Blatz and that side. And, uh, I sort [01:37:10] of you can find a paper to support anything. Um, now, so whatever you’re trying [01:37:15] to say, you can just Google, you know, ChatGPT, whatever, or the various other resources [01:37:20] to, um, to, to support what you want to say. And so everyone does that. And, and she’s like, don’t [01:37:25] do that in front of Marcus. And so I’m like last minute taking down all these references [01:37:30] in there and, and it’s much better. It’s much better to even find a paper that argues against [01:37:35] what you’re trying to say, uh, and just be authentic in that side. Um, and [01:37:40] yeah, it’s, I, I respect that too. And I really respect lecturers [01:37:45] who talk about their mistakes. I’m trying to be brave enough to incorporate more of that [01:37:50] into what I’m doing.

Payman Langroudi: It makes for a much better experience for them.

Mike Gray: Because [01:37:55] that’s how I learned the hard way. Um, and so there’s so much value in [01:38:00] that side of.

Payman Langroudi: Things about papers. Yeah. Is that when you’re at To near the [01:38:05] forefront of something you realise much of the literature is [01:38:10] is, is whether you want to call it incorrect or whether you want [01:38:15] to call it out of date or whatever it is.

Mike Gray: You’re never going to be at the cutting edge. [01:38:20] I mean, you will, but it’s yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like, like I’m waiting.

Mike Gray: For 12 [01:38:25] years.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I draw an insight. I draw an insight here from from 140,000 [01:38:30] treatments. Yeah. Let’s say I’ve got data on 140,000 [01:38:35] treatments. Yeah. I draw an insight from that. Yeah. Yeah. And then someone will quote me a paper [01:38:40] with 42 patients. Um, and it’s a, it’s a world renowned, you know, name. [01:38:45] Yeah. On 42 patients decided the opposite of my insight that [01:38:50] I’ve brought from 140 000 cases. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like, and [01:38:55] I’m hundred percent sure about this insight. Yeah. If you Google it. Yeah. Hardly [01:39:00] any paper says that that’s true. Yeah. And so it’s almost like, you know, [01:39:05] when you when you understand something or when you’re involved with something, you realise how [01:39:10] like, let’s say, have you ever been involved in a news story where there’s a [01:39:15] journalist involved? Yeah. Where there’s a journalist involved. I mean, news story sounds a bit dramatic, a [01:39:20] PR story where there’s a journalist involved and you’re part of it and you’re close to the situation, [01:39:25] and you read the article and it’s just like, the details are all incorrect. Yeah. You know, and the conclusion [01:39:30] is incorrect. Yeah. So sometimes when you, when you know about something, but [01:39:35] then in our, in our world, where’s the evidence? It’s like a very good question you should [01:39:40] be asking. Yeah.

Mike Gray: And it’s just that balance, isn’t it. And I think that’s part of developing yourself [01:39:45] as a clinician or anything in the world. It’s just using your brain to pick out what’s sensible, [01:39:50] isn’t it on that side? But yeah, because I guess you look at me on paper, you tear [01:39:55] me apart like I shouldn’t be doing any of the treatments that I do. Like, you know, right now I love my soft tissue [01:40:00] work, so I’m doing everything around implants like vertical grafting, rebuilding, papilla, all [01:40:05] that. Oh, really? And and, you know, full mouth rehab, all [01:40:10] that. Technically, I always think, like, what happens if I end up before the GDC and [01:40:15] there’s a panel expert. Yeah. And it would be traditional, say prosthodontics trained [01:40:20] and they’ll be sort of critiquing how I do it. [01:40:25] And technically, you know, there’d be far more by the book. And so it’s, yeah, [01:40:30] it’s a weird one. But like, like you said, it’s applying that common sense. And [01:40:35] for you, you, you, you, you’ve got all that wealth of data and things [01:40:40] to support what it is you’re thinking. So, you know, it’s legit. And again, coming back to that whole margin side, [01:40:45] I worried at first. I’m like, oh, if I don’t drill a margin, but then I’m like, well, we’re putting all [01:40:50] these composites on and they’re definitely thicker than 0.3mm.

Payman Langroudi: Which is not very much, is it? [01:40:55]

Mike Gray: Yeah. And everything’s fine. And so actually, I’ve got [01:41:00] everything in front of me. It’s telling me. Know what you’re thinking of doing. Isn’t that crazy? [01:41:05] Um. And so yeah, you’re fine on that side.

Payman Langroudi: What about Instagram? [01:41:10] Do you find it easy to know?

Mike Gray: It’s hard.

Payman Langroudi: You find it hard.

Mike Gray: It’s a double edged sword, isn’t it? I think [01:41:15] double edged blade in that you you kind of need to do it. I [01:41:20] think in the modern world, I think one of the best things have come out of it is sort of networking and [01:41:25] meeting people. And also the University of Instagram, you see lots of stupid stuff. But again, [01:41:30] that’s down to you to take apart properly. But then there’s so much incredible things everyone wants to [01:41:35] show off. So they’re showing you all these amazing things and it’s like, oh wow, do they do that? How can I do this? How can I tweak that? How [01:41:40] can I apply that? And you can work it out, break it down and, and apply it to where you want to go. So it’s, [01:41:45] it’s awesome in that respect. Um, but then it’s more work. It’s a lot [01:41:50] of work to do it properly. I’ve been terrible these last few months of doing it because I’m focusing, I’ve got other projects [01:41:55] top secret, um, which at some point, uh, when when the pattern [01:42:00] clears, you’ll know about it. But, um, so I, you know, putting time into other [01:42:05] things and that side and the social media side suffered. And because you, you have [01:42:10] to commit yourself or like you said, get someone to [01:42:15] take that over for you. And that again, is probably me. And my [01:42:20] thought process is wrong on this thinking, like, if somebody does it, [01:42:25] they’re not going to get the right angles. They’re not going to try and say, because a lot of my posts are more for dentists, not patients, um, [01:42:30] pretty much all of them. And so that educational side and, and that bit, I feel it [01:42:35] would be difficult for someone to get right unless it’s me, but of course there would be ways around it. I just need to invest [01:42:40] the time and, you know, and plan it. And I’m sure I could. Um, but it’s, uh, [01:42:45] yeah, it’s, it’s a great thing and not a great thing on the same.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s finish with [01:42:50] some quick fire questions. What comes to mind when I say what’s the best lecture you’ve been to?

Mike Gray: Ah, so [01:42:55] my, um, can I have a favourite lecturer? So you know doctor Alice Roberts, [01:43:00] she, she does all that sort of coast to coast thing. She’s an anthropologist. Um, so all [01:43:05] this sort of discovery channel, things like, you know, they’re trying to work out Henry the Eighth.

Payman Langroudi: Or.

Mike Gray: That sort of thing. [01:43:10] Ah, she taught us in Bristol for anatomy and I fancied her. So [01:43:15] I was front row every lesson for, [01:43:20] for, for anatomy. So definitely. Uh, yeah. Doctor Alice Roberts, favourite lecturer.

Payman Langroudi: Nice. [01:43:25] If there was no like constraints at all time or money or anything, is [01:43:30] there a course you’d jump into tomorrow? Like what? What comes to mind?

Mike Gray: I was, I was signed up [01:43:35] to do, um, and it was hard and soft [01:43:40] tissue, a week of hard and soft tissue augmentation. And I’ve just spent too much money. [01:43:45] Uh, and it was, it’s like an eight grand course literally for a week. Um, and [01:43:50] so yeah, I, I want to get that done. Yeah. Tick that off a. It’d be nice to go to [01:43:55] Italy for the week. Both incredible. And I don’t do sort of block grafting. So that’s. [01:44:00] I need to tick that off and get that done. Because the type of implant work [01:44:05] I do, it’s all the sort of the difficult anterior stuff that people don’t want to do. That’s most of my cosmetic [01:44:10] now. I do a lot of the rehab stuff and that’s where. But a lot of it is, you know, [01:44:15] generally working between canines, often trauma or bad dentistry or that side of it. And so [01:44:20] that’s where I want to tick that block grafting side of things. Um, and yeah, [01:44:25] so.

Payman Langroudi: And what comes to mind if, if I say, um, [01:44:30] dentally, what, what, what if you had to give someone advice about, [01:44:35] do you think you’re qualified to give advice on, on this, like career wise, some, some younger [01:44:40] dentist wants to know what, which direction to go or not necessarily. I don’t want you to say ortho [01:44:45] or endo. Yeah, but, but which mindset to have because the thing I’ve been most impressed with you is [01:44:50] the mindset of like, anything’s possible kind of mindset that you’ve got going on as [01:44:55] long as you obsess into it. Yeah. But it’s also you’ve also got [01:45:00] a real like pragmatic edge to that. Yeah. You know, because, you know, someone can dive [01:45:05] into something and not be pragmatic. Yeah. What would you say? What advice would you give to a young dentist? [01:45:10]

Mike Gray: For me, just a broad foundation I think is fantastic. [01:45:15] Um, it’s difficult again, because and this [01:45:20] sort of ties in with stay in your lane, like, and, uh, because it’s [01:45:25] I’m terrible for this. I used to be even worse when I just graduated. Like, oh, such and such gone [01:45:30] off. And they’ve already done a post-grad training and they’re doing this. Oh, they’ve bought a practice and [01:45:35] you just, you look at yourself and be like, I’m useless. Like, what have I done? And [01:45:40] stay in your lane? And like I said, for me, my dentistry was terrible up until 5 or 6 years ago. [01:45:45] Um, and not terrible. I was decent for not knowing anything, but it wasn’t until I [01:45:50] put in started putting in that effort. Um, and so [01:45:55] it’s, yeah, stay in your lane. Just worry about yourself. Um, and again, social media [01:46:00] is terrible for that, isn’t it, with people portraying what they want to portray and not necessarily reality. [01:46:05] And then, um, it’s that broad foundation. I think [01:46:10] it can be very tempting because you think, oh, everyone’s doing this, I need to do this and I need [01:46:15] to specialise. Um, that you can get sort of [01:46:20] coaxed along into finding your niche too early. Whereas [01:46:25] for me, I had a huge base from surgical to restorative. One of the [01:46:30] profs I was with in the restorative process was endo. So I did a year of microscope endo. [01:46:35] Don’t do any of that now. Use it every day in my case assessment and [01:46:40] things. And so that foundation being so broad means I can, [01:46:45] you know, approach a lot with a, in a sensible way. Um, and.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. [01:46:50]

Mike Gray: Even things outside of dentistry. You look at the, the mechanics on [01:46:55] the motorbikes and like, you know, metal fabrication or woodwork implants [01:47:00] are a self-tapping screw. I’ve done that a million times in metal and wood and all that side of it. So all [01:47:05] the principles stay the same and you can start then tearing things apart. Because when I’m looking at [01:47:10] implants now and I look at how we, we talk a bolt, which is something it’s crazy how precise we [01:47:15] try to be with implants. We’re so imprecise when we. The simplest thing of screwing [01:47:20] a, a bolt in and we talk it. Because you speak to someone [01:47:25] in a machine shop, which I do regularly when my bikes are falling apart. And that. And it’s like, okay, so talk [01:47:30] well, with the torque wrench, the bolt needs to be in motion when you’re talking. Otherwise, [01:47:35] the minute you stop, you’ve got coefficient of friction involved in that. You should lubricate the torque. What temperature [01:47:40] are things at? And we don’t look at any of that. We just kind of nip it up and it’s done.

Mike Gray: And it’s [01:47:45] so inaccurate and so straight away. Then I’m thinking, okay, how can I do things? So when I do my [01:47:50] implants, I call it a shakedown. When you build a motorbike, you take it out for a ride [01:47:55] and then you get it back and you check all the nuts and bolts and tighten up whatever’s come loose. So [01:48:00] whenever I fit an implant, I get them back two weeks, two months later, after they’ve been chewing on it and [01:48:05] check the torque on that bolt and again, checking the torque, you think, oh, you just nip it up. No, you have to back [01:48:10] it out first so that the bolt is turning without the coefficient of friction [01:48:15] having to overcome that. So you can actually get an accurate torque reading every [01:48:20] time. It will nip up a little bit. And whether that’s because of a temperature change or that side of it. So [01:48:25] when I say my implants out for a shakedown, always nips up a little bit afterwards, and there would be science [01:48:30] behind that. And somebody, somebody do a paper that won’t.

Payman Langroudi: Be verbal skills. Yeah. So because.

Mike Gray: It’s [01:48:35] that. So it’s that broad base.

Payman Langroudi: Debate says his design and tech GCSE [01:48:40] was much more useful is much more useful to him than chemistry [01:48:45] Biology. A level off for me. Agree?

Mike Gray: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah [01:48:50] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Gray: Absolutely. And and it’s it’s that sort of, you know, [01:48:55] that and I and putting into that side of things. So, uh, yeah, broad [01:49:00] based though it can be frustrating, but nothing is wasted in that. And [01:49:05] like I said, there’s so many treatments I don’t do now, but because I’ve had experience and I understand them, it [01:49:10] all helps with building that foundation of the bigger cases [01:49:15] I’m doing now.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to the final, final bit of the pod, which [01:49:20] starts off with fancy dinner party. Um, three guests.

Mike Gray: Are. [01:49:25]

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive?

Mike Gray: No. So for me, it’s it’s, you know, call [01:49:30] it, uh, sort of soft or cuddly or friends and family. [01:49:35] It’s, it’s, uh, like I said, I had the sad thing [01:49:40] of one of my childhood besties passing away, uh, New Year’s. And [01:49:45] would I be more sad if I went for [01:49:50] dinner with somebody famous or somebody passes away? Or [01:49:55] I went for a dinner with my friends and family and it’s I’m going to have the best night with the people. I get on with the. [01:50:00] I can have the most fun joke and laugh. And so yeah, just nearest [01:50:05] and dearest, closest friends. That would be my dinner party.

Payman Langroudi: It’s beautiful. It’s beautiful. I don’t normally allow [01:50:10] that sort of answer, you know, but on this occasion I will think on this occasion I will because, [01:50:15] you know, I’m like, you know, come on surely, Gandhi. Yeah. If you could sit with him. [01:50:20] But but on this occasion I will.

Mike Gray: And again, maybe that’s me being blasé because [01:50:25] I’ve been fortunate to meet lots of incredible people. I’ve met world champions, multiple world champions [01:50:30] in sport I’ve met.

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t interest.

Mike Gray: You. People at the highest level in music. In [01:50:35] surgery. I’ve been fortunate to meet some of the best surgeons.

Payman Langroudi: That was that bit you did about the peeing [01:50:40] in the toilet? Even even Oasis have to pee in this toilet.

Mike Gray: But [01:50:45] that’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Thing. Yeah, that’s a good point. That was from that was from Rockfield Studios.

Mike Gray: So again, [01:50:50] I was fortunate to to have a recording session, Rockfield Studios, which famously Bohemian Rhapsody [01:50:55] was was created on the piano there. And like I said, you’ve had Oasis in there and they [01:51:00] did the album. What’s the what’s the story? Morning glory. And yeah, famously, they [01:51:05] had a microphone in the hallway that picked up some of the birds. So whenever you go there, everyone always puts this microphone in the hallway [01:51:10] and, and records it. But at the end of that hallway, there’s just a, just a grotty little toilet. Um, [01:51:15] and, and it’s funny, I went there to, to use the toilet and [01:51:20] I stood there and looking at this toilet and I’m thinking of all these incredible people that have [01:51:25] had to take a pee in that toilet before me. And it’s like, so again, advice [01:51:30] to anyone out there and young people, all these incredible dentists and things that you’re looking up to, whether you’re looking [01:51:35] up to me or yourself or anyone like that, they’ve all got to pee like you and I. [01:51:40] Yeah. So, uh, yeah, it’s a beautiful story. It’s a beautiful analogy.

Payman Langroudi: Love that man. It’s [01:51:45] been a massive pleasure, dude, a massive pleasure. I really learned a lot from your outlook. Uh, [01:51:50] you know, you say that broad base, but then you dive deep. Yeah. You know, that combination [01:51:55] is facilitates that though.

Mike Gray: And I think that’s, that’s that important side and that [01:52:00] stops you getting trapped.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Gray: Uh, like we said in that, oh, I have to do it this [01:52:05] way because this is how I’m, how I’m told.

Payman Langroudi: So kid on the way, huh?

Mike Gray: Yeah. [01:52:10] Got a baby due end of April, so I’m sure life would change.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Go berserk. Go [01:52:15] berserk from now until the baby’s done. Yeah. Yeah. Like, [01:52:20] go travel with that one year old. Yeah. It’s amazing. Yeah. Number one, you don’t pay your ticket. Yeah. You [01:52:25] know, once you start paying four times a flight to Thailand, you realise. Oh my [01:52:30] God. Yeah. Yeah. Enjoy. Enjoy it as well.

Mike Gray: As the [01:52:35] business side.

Payman Langroudi: Stop and smell the roses, too. Yeah.

Mike Gray: Yeah. Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Lovely to have you, man.

Mike Gray: Thank you. No [01:52:40] thank you ever so much. And like I said, absolute pleasure and privilege.

Payman Langroudi: To get a party together. Yeah. [01:52:45] In ministry. Yeah, absolutely.

Mike Gray: I’m looking forward to it. I’m going to be there.

Payman Langroudi: It’s going to be good.

Mike Gray: So, uh. Yeah. [01:52:50] Can’t wait.

Payman Langroudi: Sounds incredible. Thanks, man.

Mike Gray: No, thank you so much.

[VOICE]: This [01:52:55] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one [01:53:00] on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:53:05] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:53:10] for listening guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [01:53:15] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we [01:53:20] had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. [01:53:25]

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [01:53:30] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. [01:53:35] Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] enlightened online training to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time. Whitening underwhelms try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you [00:00:30] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:00:40] Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Jawad Quinn [00:00:45] to the podcast. Um, Rawa is a dentist who’s [00:00:50] now branched out into tech. Yeah. Um, with your Medicube product. [00:00:55] That’s correct. I’m very interested in that whole founder journey. Um, [00:01:00] everything that it takes. And I haven’t done it myself. Right? Yeah. The sort of Earth’s [00:01:05] gravitational pull, which I call dentistry and, you know, coming out of that [00:01:10] and, uh, your, your journey so far with, with the investment [00:01:15] co-founders, all of that really want to get into all of that. Yeah. [00:01:20] Lovely to have you.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Payman really appreciate it.

Payman Langroudi: All the way from Belfast. [00:01:25]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. So I live in Belfast now.

Payman Langroudi: How long have you been there?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: So I’ve been there for four years. [00:01:30] Um, it’s a great place. It’s very safe. Like you can leave [00:01:35] stuff anywhere and people won’t steal. Yeah, because everyone knows each other. Um. [00:01:40] So. No, I love Belfast. It’s really good.

Payman Langroudi: Where were you before? Belfast.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: So I used to live in South London, [00:01:45] so I was like round Clapham.

Payman Langroudi: You grew up in South London?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Um, I grew up on the Kings Road. [00:01:50] Did you? Yeah, but we weren’t, we weren’t well off like we lived. Um, we lived [00:01:55] in a flat on the Kings Road.

Payman Langroudi: Um We’re both.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: So literally [00:02:00] like it was, I think it was called there was a Guinness building. [00:02:05] We weren’t the Guinness building, which would be ironic. Me living in Belfast now. Um, [00:02:10] no, it was um winch house, that’s where we lived. So it was like right in the centre [00:02:15] of the King’s Road that like our flat is worth so much money. Now if we bought it, [00:02:20] but we didn’t. Um, and yeah, it was a nice upbringing. Well it was, [00:02:25] I went to Ashburnham School. It was a little school, like right near it. And [00:02:30] actually the community was so lovely. Like none of us like were very well off. [00:02:35] Um, you know, like high, like low socioeconomic. Um, [00:02:40] you know, loads of like very low household income families. [00:02:45] Um, but it was a really nice community and I’m like in touch with loads [00:02:50] of my friends from school.

Payman Langroudi: Um, they’re the best.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: They’re really nice.

Payman Langroudi: They are the best.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. [00:02:55] Like I really wish them well. And they’re very sweet. Like.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I’ve got friends from school, from university [00:03:00] family, all that school friends or something else.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Weird, isn’t it? What I find really [00:03:05] interesting is how little people change. You know, when we’re all 50, whatever, 52, whatever it is, 53. [00:03:10] Um, same character as the kid was when he was 11, you know?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: God, [00:03:15] I’ve had that realisation recently. Yeah. Like, I think even from the age of three, you [00:03:20] can kind of tell someone’s character. Yeah. And it sort of doesn’t ever change. [00:03:25]

Payman Langroudi: And where did you study dentistry?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: So I studied in Liverpool. Um, [00:03:30] and it was great. Yeah, I really enjoyed. I’m still in contact with some of the lecturers actually, and they’re [00:03:35] very helpful. Um, with Medicube as well. They’ve been fantastic.

Payman Langroudi: Was [00:03:40] that on purpose you went to Liverpool or by mistake?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: No. Well, I wanted to get out of London, to be honest. [00:03:45] Yeah, I did, I was like.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a good foresight to have that foresight to want to get out [00:03:50] because I didn’t.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Want.

Payman Langroudi: You know, when you’re 17, you think you know it all. I didn’t want to get out. I was [00:03:55] forced out like I didn’t get the grades. I ended up in my reserve place. [00:04:00]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: It’s typical though, isn’t it? Yeah, it happens to so many.

Payman Langroudi: I adored it. It was the best thing that [00:04:05] ever happened. And then I forced my son, who just went to university, to leave London. Really? He [00:04:10] was thinking of Imperial College, which is like the building next door to his school. And he goes to the [00:04:15] lycée. The French school.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: And I said, listen, like, [00:04:20] leave and reinvent. And when I say reinvent, I don’t necessarily mean make up a new [00:04:25] person. It’s almost like this. This there’s someone in you who you’re not letting out because [00:04:30] of the, the guardrails, the kind of the framework that you’re growing up in. And [00:04:35] then you get to the new town. Were you like that when you got to Liverpool?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, I think Liverpool. I went there and I [00:04:40] did go mad and I was away from like family.

Payman Langroudi: Which year was it?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Um, so [00:04:45] God, it’s so long ago, 2009. So I was, I went mad, [00:04:50] I was wild. Were you, were you. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: And I think that was what was so funny. Like [00:04:55] even those friends that I made, they’re still in touch with still really good friends. Um, it’s [00:05:00] harder now to reach out, like as often, but whenever we see each other, it’s like nothing’s changed. [00:05:05] But they, they must have thought I was absolutely nuts because we’d [00:05:10] go on a night out. We’d have, like, so much fun would be wild and whatever. And then it [00:05:15] got to like February and I just like started to become really elusive and [00:05:20] they like, wouldn’t see me anymore and I would be in the library, like constantly because [00:05:25] the other side of me came out of like, oh my God, I’ve been having too much fun and like, I’m [00:05:30] gonna fail.

Payman Langroudi: Wait, were you like a girly swot in school?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Well, no, [00:05:35] I was a real, um, I think at school, I was like a drifter. [00:05:40] I was always a drifter. Just drift between different groups. Um, and [00:05:45] then. But I would work really hard because, like, I am actually like dyslexic. [00:05:50] Um, and that was diagnosed very late, that was diagnosed at university. [00:05:55] So I had a lot of coping mechanisms and strategies. I used to like work really, really [00:06:00] hard. And, um, university was hard for me. Like academically, [00:06:05] I’ve really actually found it very difficult. Um, so yeah, my friends would find it so funny [00:06:10] because like from February to June, you wouldn’t see me. I would be in the library like, [00:06:15] so.

Payman Langroudi: Put it, verbalise it for me. Like the feeling of being dyslexic. Are [00:06:20] there certain concepts you just can’t pick up and others that you find really easy?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: No. Like [00:06:25] now honestly doesn’t show for me. My dyslexia is like really not obvious, but I’ll [00:06:30] explain it like this. When I was a kid learning about the world, I couldn’t [00:06:35] grasp why things were done a certain way. So like when I was taught the [00:06:40] alphabet and the time, those were two times I specifically remember at school being [00:06:45] incredibly frustrated. I would like, I just couldn’t understand because I was like, [00:06:50] really? I was smart, but when it came to those two things. I couldn’t understand [00:06:55] what they were teaching me. Why they were teaching me, what was the value of what I was learning. [00:07:00] And it really frustrated me. And I would like get I would get really upset and [00:07:05] like, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Because you were undiagnosed as well.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yes, yes. And back then [00:07:10] it wasn’t like dyslexia wasn’t a thing. It was like, okay, you’re not listening. You’re not focusing, [00:07:15] you know, so I that was what I found really hard. Um, but actually it’s been [00:07:20] a bit of a superpower, if I’m honest, like.

Payman Langroudi: Some of the most successful people are dyslexic.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I mean, [00:07:25] yeah, I mean, only recently I’ve been able to like account a lot of my success to [00:07:30] my dyslexia. The upside is huge. Like so, okay, so things like this, like [00:07:35] I can read loads of different books and topics that are completely unrelated [00:07:40] and I can see like a thread of how they link and I can like reapply [00:07:45] concepts. So it’s really fun. Like I am a big picture thinker, so [00:07:50] I can see I can like basically learn something about, yeah, completely unrelated topic, reapply [00:07:55] it somewhere else. And it’s really fun. I love doing that. And that’s how I’ve always learned [00:08:00] actually, even, um, I think with maths, even I loved learning [00:08:05] to do things the long, hard way because that meant I understood them [00:08:10] and I can re-apply pieces to different. Um, so.

Payman Langroudi: Is that when you, when you’re looking [00:08:15] at something, do you have to understand it fully?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Some people, some people [00:08:20] like that.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: And I am like that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s a pain, but it’s also brilliant because yeah, once you [00:08:25] understand it fully, then you can really like adjust it and make it yours.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Totally. [00:08:30]

Payman Langroudi: I noticed that with people I know who are like that, but if you want to explain something to them, you can’t just gloss [00:08:35] over it. You have to go from the beginning.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, that’s what’s frustrating for a lot of people. [00:08:40] Like explaining stuff to me, especially my husband. He gets so wound up trying to explain [00:08:45] stuff, but it’s because like, so where it’s been so beneficial is [00:08:50] in dentistry as well. I struggled so much to learn [00:08:55] dentistry. And then when I came out into practice, I don’t know what happened. [00:09:00] It just like all came together so fast and like I could see, um, [00:09:05] I can’t explain it. Like I just, I was so focussed on like, okay, [00:09:10] this is what I want to do in my career. I had this goal three years in. I was like, I want to be the best [00:09:15] dentist in the world. And that was like what I was working to. And very early on, I worked [00:09:20] in really high end private practice and I was mentored. Actually, [00:09:25] I had lived in Belfast in 2017 and 2018, just for a year and a half, worked [00:09:30] at a really high end practice there called Gentle Dental Care, was mentored by the dentist there. [00:09:35] She is incredible. Like I would still.

Payman Langroudi: Chat her up.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Worship her. Lucy [00:09:40] Stock she’s amazing. She’s amazing. Dentist. Um, and then [00:09:45] I did like the crystal course and um, that was incredible as well. Really good foundation. [00:09:50] Everything just came together and I just realised, um, I [00:09:55] think I just, I like really my career just leapt forward really fast. Right? And I got [00:10:00] really good at doing dentistry, but then I realised that it [00:10:05] just sort of came crashing down really early where I was like, this isn’t enough. [00:10:10] Like this isn’t going to make me happy. I can’t do this forever. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That [00:10:15] feeling too.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How old were you when that happened?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Uh, 29. [00:10:20]

Payman Langroudi: 28.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Were you? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know what, I was sitting. I figured out how to do veneers. [00:10:25] I think it was at the time. There was no Invisalign back then. I’d figured out veneers, and I was really happy [00:10:30] about veneers. I was making loads of money, and I suddenly had this moment [00:10:35] where I thought, even if I do the best [00:10:40] job in the world, my impact is five miles radius of [00:10:45] this building. And at the time I was in Folkestone somewhere. You know, I was in. Yeah. V t plus [00:10:50] one kind of job. Yeah. And I wanted more impact. I childishly, [00:10:55] if I have to be honest, be honest with you. It was a bit childish because you can have impact, right? [00:11:00] You can open 100 practices if you’re man enough or woman enough. Yeah, yeah. So I could have had impact. But [00:11:05] somehow in that childish moment, I thought my impact has to be something other than being a [00:11:10] dentist.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, I totally see that. I do see that completely. And I think [00:11:15] for me, there was, there was a bit more of a frustration, not [00:11:20] the impact so much. What I found was like, you could build [00:11:25] a really strong foundation in one practice. Then if something [00:11:30] happened to that job and you were not happy and you had to move to another practice, you’re starting again training [00:11:35] a team, um, building that trust in the [00:11:40] team and the workflow and everything. And that was a huge problem for me. And [00:11:45] then what I found was I’ve worked at a lot of practices, by the way, I’ve worked at 16 practices [00:11:50] and I’ve really and that’s another one of my superpowers that really gets [00:11:55] underestimated. I can walk into a practice. I can work there for [00:12:00] maybe two weeks. And I can tell you exactly, uh, pretty [00:12:05] much who shouldn’t work there, who’s not interested, who’s, who’s not trainable. [00:12:10] You know, there are people who take on jobs, and you can’t train [00:12:15] them to be any better than they are because they’ll never care. Um, I get that sense really fast. [00:12:20] And, um, so.

Payman Langroudi: It’s like an EQ thing rather than an IQ thing.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I don’t [00:12:25] know, I don’t think.

Payman Langroudi: I have emotional intelligence that you sort of understand people quickly.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I don’t think I have great [00:12:30] EQ, I honestly don’t. Like I’m not, I’m not that like, you know, there are people that are really charming [00:12:35] and they can like sell anything. I don’t think I’m like that, but I don’t, I. [00:12:40] I don’t know what it is. I can just tell straight away, but usually I have to work with someone. I have to get [00:12:45] a sense of their, um, how they complete their tasks.

Payman Langroudi: Like a member of staff, [00:12:50] a nurse or something.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Their attention to detail, reception team, pretty much everyone. I get like a strong sense of. [00:12:55]

Payman Langroudi: I definitely want to talk about this then because whenever I talk to a specialist. Yeah, you know how specialist, a [00:13:00] lot of them jump between 16 practices.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: I’m really fascinated by the notion of, [00:13:05] so what lessons do you learn from like good and bad from different practices? [00:13:10] I do want to go there.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Not right now, but I do want to go there because, you know, it’s [00:13:15] one of those I’ve only ever worked in for practices. So and [00:13:20] each one was completely different. And so, you know, your experience and practices is [00:13:25] quadruple mine, right? So I’m interested to hear those lessons.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: And even like I’ve worked at big [00:13:30] practices as well. So you see huge teams. Um, so you’re exposed to a [00:13:35] lot of people. So I’ve worked at really big, really small NHS private, high end bog [00:13:40] standard. I’ve done, I’ve done it all. I think that was also my my piece of my dyslexia. [00:13:45] Being like, I really need to understand dentistry before I really know where I want [00:13:50] to place myself. That probably is part of my I mean, I don’t know if it’s dyslexia or my personality [00:13:55] really.

Payman Langroudi: But a couple of things are a bit of a rewind. You said you were in, uh, [00:14:00] Chelsea. Westminster. Sorry. Chelsea and Kensington. Kensington, Chelsea in [00:14:05] a low socioeconomic group, but both your parents are doctors.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So how [00:14:10] does that play out?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Well, um, so we so basically we used to live [00:14:15] in Kuwait, um, when I was young, and then the war broke out between Iraq [00:14:20] and Kuwait and I’m Iraqi while.

Payman Langroudi: Living in Kuwait.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: While we were living in Kuwait.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:14:25] Iraq was number one.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. Which is so interesting because like, I’ve never in my [00:14:30] life really been able to understand, like actually what [00:14:35] happened to us in like a, like visceral sense because like we had [00:14:40] all of our assets seized. Um, so my parents lost everything. Like [00:14:45] we were living a great life out there. You know, they were doing very well. Um, what.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of doctor’s.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Orders? Um, [00:14:50] so my dad’s a paediatrician. He didn’t do that anymore. He went into GP and my mum, I [00:14:55] don’t think she actually specialised in anything. She was just a general, um GP [00:15:00] uh, sorry. General doctor went on to be a GP and um so yeah, [00:15:05] we had all of our assets seized. It was me, my brother and sister, you know, I was like [00:15:10] three at the time. My sister was um like ten and my [00:15:15] brother was like eight. And uh, yeah, we just had to.

Payman Langroudi: Run [00:15:20] away to the UK.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. Came to the UK.

Payman Langroudi: Um, start from completely zero.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. [00:15:25] And it was really difficult as well because back in those days, like you would. So my dad would was [00:15:30] trying to get recruited to be in the army and all of this stuff. And it was really hard. So it was, it was [00:15:35] really uncertain time. But anyway, we got to the UK. Um, and then yeah, [00:15:40] we didn’t really have anything and my parents had to basically train up from being like the equivalent [00:15:45] qualify. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because they studied in Iraq.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, essentially. Yeah. [00:15:50] Well they studied in Egypt.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, yeah. So they had to kind of, um, [00:15:55] start as a v t basically not a v t um.

Payman Langroudi: During the doctor.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Junior doctor. [00:16:00] Yeah, exactly. Which I think was a bit of, you know, it’s a bit humiliating for [00:16:05] a doctor who’s worked so long and has done so well for themselves. And now you’re just training with like new [00:16:10] grads. So, um, and they were working a lot. They were doing a lot of night shifts, [00:16:15] um, different parts of the UK, like my mum [00:16:20] was in Doncaster at one point, my dad was in Wales. Um, but at the time.

Payman Langroudi: Was [00:16:25] it enough to put you off medicine?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: 100%. Oh my God, 1,000,000%. [00:16:30] Like I see, I see people now that are doctors that are married and [00:16:35] I just I listened to their story now and they’re like, yeah, we don’t have kids because we [00:16:40] don’t know how we’ll make it work. So I think now it’s like people are very responsible. When [00:16:45] you bring a child into the world, you want to have a good, you know, a good [00:16:50] life for them. And I think it’s put a lot of doctors off, but it’s very unfair on them. [00:16:55] Like I don’t think it gets enough publicity on like how hard it is for them to raise kids, [00:17:00] how traumatising it is for their children. I mean, that was a huge part of like, [00:17:05] um, you know, my upbringing was like very much like my, my sister [00:17:10] when I mean, my mum had to kind of go and work when I was maybe like six, [00:17:15] um, my sister was 16 and it was really difficult, like [00:17:20] my sister was taking on like the role of caring for me. Um, and [00:17:25] that was hard. That was really.

Payman Langroudi: Underestimate it when both parents are in medicine. I mean, I know [00:17:30] loads of people where one of them is a surgeon and the other one is running everything at [00:17:35] home. But then I know loads of people, two doctors, and either one of them has to take [00:17:40] a real break on their career or, you know, nannies come into [00:17:45] play.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Payman Langroudi: But that notion of, you know, my brother, my brother and his [00:17:50] wife are doctors, both of them. And right now at this moment, they’ve got two young kids. And [00:17:55] there isn’t one day that all four of them are together. Yeah, even during the weekend.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: It’s so.

Payman Langroudi: Sad. Which [00:18:00] is which is difficult, right? It’s so hard trying to address it, but yeah, but you’re right, it doesn’t get talked about enough. [00:18:05] Tell me about the ambition piece because you’re clearly very ambitious. It’s very [00:18:10] obvious.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Is it.

Payman Langroudi: Obvious? Yeah. Were you always know? [00:18:15] Was there an inflection point?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Oh, God, I was. So this is actually I think this goes a lot back [00:18:20] to my upbringing. I was very underestimated as a child. Oh, yeah. So I, um, look, [00:18:25] I grew up in a, in a household where I, you know, I had to figure a lot out for myself. [00:18:30] And it was it was very difficult. Like it wasn’t like I wasn’t [00:18:35] like read bedtime stories and I wasn’t like, you know, I, I just got on [00:18:40] with it. And it was hard. Like it wasn’t a nice, um, [00:18:45] upbringing. And I think what that did was it created a sense [00:18:50] of, okay, so as a child, it created a lot of confusion. [00:18:55] Um, because I.

Payman Langroudi: They were positives, right? Self-reliance, that sort of thing.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: No, but as a child, you don’t [00:19:00] see it that way. As a child, you think everyone has your life. So then [00:19:05] you go to school and you pick up on things like, I don’t know, really unusual things [00:19:10] like just how cared for people other people are. And you do sort of [00:19:15] think, huh, that’s weird. Like, you know, just it just, [00:19:20] it just occurs to you and you don’t really understand why they’re living such a different life to you. [00:19:25] Um, and then as you get older, you kind of realise a [00:19:30] bit more what happened. And then I think it takes a really long time to process your childhood. I think a lot of people [00:19:35] in their 30s are still processing their childhood. And for me, um, very [00:19:40] early on, I realised that being a child was it just was [00:19:45] it sucked. And the reason it sucked is because I had no say in what I do. So after [00:19:50] that, it was like, when I’m an adult, I’m going to take full control of my life. And [00:19:55] I think what happened was I just realised that there was like, nothing I couldn’t [00:20:00] do if I put my mind to it. So the ambition piece comes from the self-belief [00:20:05] of like, I genuinely know that there’s like nothing [00:20:10] that I can’t do. Like if I. It might take me years, it might take my whole [00:20:15] life. But if I put my mind to it, like I’ll do it. And [00:20:20] so I think it’s just, it’s self-assurance, it’s belief.

Payman Langroudi: Um, it’s interesting, [00:20:25] you know, like some people thrive in like, institutional setup? [00:20:30]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, I noticed that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Some people love school and uni love rules. You know, [00:20:35] like they like hard lines. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, almost it [00:20:40] breaks their heart when someone breaks one of those rules and, you know, they almost feel like, well, how come [00:20:45] I’m following the rule and this person isn’t? For the sake of the argument and other people thrive in [00:20:50] the opposite situation where, you know, like you say you can in your life and business, [00:20:55] you can make massive leaps if you make the right moves. Whereas in school, you can’t, [00:21:00] you can’t. You’re stuck in that system and people thrive in that. You [00:21:05] know.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: That’s actually so interesting because that’s what I picked up on like at school. I was so [00:21:10] underestimated.

Payman Langroudi: So are you the type of person if someone says, I don’t believe [00:21:15] you can do that, that drives you to.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I just find it funny when people say things like [00:21:20] that because I’m like, how do you know what I can do?

Payman Langroudi: No, but I used to live with a guy and he was a medic. [00:21:25] Yeah. And we were getting to the end of our course, and this guy was scraping through, continuously scraping through, [00:21:30] almost getting kicked out. And then we got to the end and he said, yeah, I want to be a surgeon. And I went, [00:21:35] come on, man.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, why don’t you just become a GP? Yeah, because, you know, and he went [00:21:40] on to become one of the world’s top surgeons in his area. Wow. And I had dinner with him and he said, [00:21:45] you know that thing you told me? That’s what made me do because you underestimated me. And [00:21:50] so I was like.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I love.

Payman Langroudi: That.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. I mean, I think there’s a bit of that. [00:21:55]

Payman Langroudi: It’s like a red rag to a bull, you know, like.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, yeah. But I think honestly, I think, um, sometimes you’re [00:22:00] underestimated.

Payman Langroudi: Underestimated your parents.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Um, I.

Payman Langroudi: Would.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Say, I’d [00:22:05] just say everybody, like I would say everyone probably in my early life underestimated.

Payman Langroudi: Why? Because [00:22:10] you were like, uh.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Quiet, quiet. I was very quiet.

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t come across quiet.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I’m [00:22:15] not anymore. Yeah, but this is the thing. I think you have, like.

Payman Langroudi: That reinvention piece in Liverpool. [00:22:20]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, well, I think I’ve reinvented myself so many times, but now I’m like, I [00:22:25] think after a while you’re sort of like, who actually am I? And then you remember who you are, who you are deep [00:22:30] down and stuff. So a lot of it is like, for me, I honestly don’t care if people [00:22:35] think I can do something or not. I’m very stoic about things now. I’m like, if I need [00:22:40] you to believe in me, I will put some energy into that, [00:22:45] right? But if I don’t, then you can do what you want. I’ll do what I want. We’ll move [00:22:50] in our own circles. So I just have this thing where I’m like, I conserve my energy for what’s important. [00:22:55] And in terms of like, there’s a lot of self-belief, [00:23:00] but there’s a lot of feeling like I need to do things because, um, [00:23:05] it’s weird. Sometimes I feel like you’re guided by something like I definitely feel guided, [00:23:10] like I feel guided by, I don’t know whether it’s a higher power or um. [00:23:15]

Payman Langroudi: But you said you don’t believe in.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I’m not religious, but I believe in God. Yeah. I do believe [00:23:20] in God. I mean, I don’t believe in like God in the same sense that like necessarily how [00:23:25] other people talk about God. But I do believe in like a higher power. Um, I believe we’re all connected. [00:23:30] I’ve always believed that, um, pray, I pray at [00:23:35] night time, but my prayer is more like, um, so I do a lot of, um, uh, [00:23:40] gratitude and, uh, I just pray for just people to be well, [00:23:45] um, and yeah, and just, yeah, just be, I just be grateful for a moment [00:23:50] and I just like thank, um, like I usually just thank the universe, but that’s for me, that’s the [00:23:55] higher power that I’m thanking. Um, but yeah, I think, I think the key thing is, [00:24:00] I do believe we’re all connected. So that’s a huge, um, part of how I live my [00:24:05] life. Like I don’t do things to hurt people because I’m like.

Payman Langroudi: Like in a karmic way like that. [00:24:10]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think that we’re all kind [00:24:15] of the same person walking different lives. We’re all connected. You just need to want well [00:24:20] for everyone. So, you know, when it comes to like, if I need people [00:24:25] to believe in me, it’s got to be like, you know, if I need do [00:24:30] you know what I mean? Like it’s got to be stoic. So I want well, for other people, if they don’t believe in me, I’m not going to be upset about [00:24:35] it. But yeah, it does drive me sometimes because I’m like, but also [00:24:40] not really anymore because I know where I’m going. I know what I’m doing. I know why I’m doing [00:24:45] it. If someone doesn’t believe in it, then I don’t care. How old are you? I’m 35.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [00:24:50] you look a bit younger. Do I? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: How old did you think I was? That’s [00:24:55] compliment. I like being.

Payman Langroudi: Told. I wasn’t saying that for a compliment. Just like. No, but. But there is something [00:25:00] I don’t know. Do you think women take longer to get to this point that [00:25:05] you’re at, or sort of knowing yourself?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: No, I don’t think that actually. [00:25:10] I think the opposite.

Payman Langroudi: I come across 1 or 2 women who say that, right? They say, oh, you know, for a [00:25:15] woman, knowing yourself takes longer. And, you know, in uni, I didn’t think that [00:25:20] I come across, you know, 18 who know themselves quite well.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. I [00:25:25] think do you know what’s really interesting? I think I really got to know myself after I, um, [00:25:30] got pregnant and that’s really strange. But when I got pregnant, I felt so spiritual [00:25:35] and it was like, it was very, it [00:25:40] was really, really like spiritual amazing time for me. Um, [00:25:45] and then after when I, you know, had my little girl, I think now I just feel so connected [00:25:50] to her. Like I almost think we’re telepathic sometimes. Like it’s just so strange. [00:25:55] Like, I’ll have a thought and she’ll have a thought. We’ll wake up at the same time and think loads of weird [00:26:00] things. And she’s three and a half.

Payman Langroudi: Is you any kid?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, she’s my only child. Yeah. [00:26:05] God, I don’t think I can handle going through it all again, but no, I think, I think, [00:26:10] um.

Payman Langroudi: How do you feel around the subject of, like, wanting it all.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: About what?

Payman Langroudi: Wanting it [00:26:15] all.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: What do you mean, wanting it all?

Payman Langroudi: You know, like you want a child, you want a husband, you want [00:26:20] a business, you want a.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I want it all. I do want it all. Yeah, yeah, I want it all. And I don’t think that’s a problem. [00:26:25]

Payman Langroudi: I think. Do you think like, something’s going to give? Like something has to give? In this situation. [00:26:30] So. So then what gives? Right? So yeah, so so let me tell you what I think. Like [00:26:35] your relationship with your child is not going to give.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, yeah, I know.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not going to let your business give [00:26:40] because the moment you let your business give. That it goes away all together. Yeah. And it tends [00:26:45] to be either your own health and happiness. That gives or [00:26:50] your relationship sometimes being the. I find the second kid does that more. [00:26:55] Than the.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: First probably. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But but you know that notion that we’re sold that I can have it all. I [00:27:00] found it’s a little bit toxic, a little bit toxic in that in that, you know, what is all. [00:27:05] Uh, the next person could say all is 100 practices. Yeah, yeah. So can [00:27:10] you have 100 practices and a Start-Up and a woman and a child and a had, um, [00:27:15] Anushka from the mirror.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Oh, yeah. Cool.

Payman Langroudi: Three children, 600 employees, 43 [00:27:20] practices.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: She’s done well. She’s done amazing. I remember applying for a job with one of her [00:27:25] practices in like 2015, 2016, and I think they had half the number they have now. [00:27:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: She’s amazing. Yeah. She sounds brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I think of Linda Greenwall [00:27:35] for children. She’s written books. She travels all over the world. Lecturing has her own [00:27:40] massive practice at the same time. But something my point is, wanting [00:27:45] it all will lead to disappointment. Yeah, and it doesn’t matter. Doesn’t matter. It’s fine. Yeah, [00:27:50] but the notion of something’s going to give. And then don’t let that break your heart.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. [00:27:55] Look, I agree with you. I know when I started this journey, [00:28:00] especially with the business that something was always going to have to give. [00:28:05] And founders will say it all the time. No, you’re hard. [00:28:10] Like know what you’re willing to give up. And I know what I’m willing to give up there is [00:28:15] like I’ve said, I’ve, you know, said it very clearly. [00:28:20] Even when like I do set my intention for the day, I know exactly what [00:28:25] I’m focussed on and what will suffer. And for me, it’s not a choice. [00:28:30] It’s just what I have to do to make this business go. And it just means I don’t have [00:28:35] like, you know, there’s loads of people that have an amazing social life. They’re out all the time partying, having fun. [00:28:40] I just know I can’t do that. Like with what I’m trying to achieve at this point, like I can’t [00:28:45] go out and have fun. I can’t go drinking whenever I want. I can’t, [00:28:50] you know, do all these things. I have to be really focussed. I have to [00:28:55] be, you know, like, and with my daughter, it’s hard. Like I did find there was a period where I [00:29:00] wasn’t spending as much time as her with her as I should, but what I did was I changed that [00:29:05] narrative to the time I spend with her is ring fenced. It’s precious. [00:29:10] We spend really rich time together and, um. Yeah. [00:29:15] And, uh, and that’s funny. No, we don’t have a nanny. We have. No, [00:29:20] no, we don’t have a nanny. It’s just we just manage like, it’s really hard, but [00:29:25] we have like. Yeah, to be fair, I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: How you wouldn’t [00:29:30] do dentistry without a nurse.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Doing a child and a business without a nanny.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. [00:29:35] You’re right.

Payman Langroudi: It’s hard.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: You’re right. To be honest, in Belfast, it’s not that easy to locate nannies. [00:29:40] Um, you can get. Yeah. It’s not part of the culture. You can get [00:29:45] babysitters. So we have babysitters. Yeah. Um, but yeah, no, we work really hard. Even [00:29:50] me and my husband work really hard and it isn’t easy. Um, and yeah, so that, that [00:29:55] we know that things.

Payman Langroudi: But this thing you’re saying about quality time. Yeah. Rich time nanny [00:30:00] really is perfect for that.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. That’s good. That’s true.

Payman Langroudi: Like, I don’t know, it’s [00:30:05] a bit like, do you have a cleaner? Yeah, yeah. So, you know, like in the time that the cleaner is ironing, [00:30:10] you could be having quality time with your child. Yeah, yeah, it’s a similar kind [00:30:15] of thing.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right. As this business takes off and you’re nowhere, right? 23 is [00:30:20] nothing.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You might have to be in Europe [00:30:25] once a month. You might. You know, it might be.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I know. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: My top customer [00:30:30] was in Amsterdam for, for years. You know, like it was, you know, that was where he was. Um, [00:30:35] it’s just, it’s just, you know, especially if you have a second.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. [00:30:40]

Payman Langroudi: Are you saying you’ve ruled that out?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Haven’t ruled it out? I don’t know how we’ll do it, but [00:30:45] you’re right. Maybe that’s it. A nanny?

[BOTH]: Yeah. Yeah.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: There you go. I’ll take that on board.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [00:30:50] go on to. Okay. You. You qualified?

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You started working in different [00:30:55] dental practices and these 16 practices you worked at.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s go on to that piece. [00:31:00] What were the what were the lessons you learned, good and bad?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Well, [00:31:05] the main one, I would say, and they say this a lot, but as [00:31:10] an associate, I think a lot of associates don’t pick up on this, that your reception [00:31:15] team is a huge part of why you might be getting [00:31:20] complaints. So your reception team can be really upsetting [00:31:25] and annoying patients without you knowing. Um, and what it tends to do [00:31:30] is kind of upset the patients, but not enough that they’d complain. But then as soon [00:31:35] as something else goes wrong, they’ll complain. Then they’ll write a letter. And what was [00:31:40] frustrating for me is when you receive those letters where like most of it, [00:31:45] is about how the practice is run or like their dealings with the reception [00:31:50] team, and then like maybe two lines on something that happened clinically. [00:31:55] And then as an associate, you’re given that complaint to handle and you’re sort [00:32:00] of thinking, yeah, but is this really is this really towards me? Um, [00:32:05] so I picked up on that a lot. Um, I think reception teams are essential. [00:32:10]

[BOTH]: They’re like, do you think it.

Payman Langroudi: Emanates from the top though?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Like, yeah, I do. Absolutely. I think [00:32:15] the culture comes from the very top. I worked at some practices where the [00:32:20] owner was, uh, amazing. I mean, he was like on [00:32:25] site every week with the practice managers getting [00:32:30] an outline of how people were performing. And he would have reviews [00:32:35] with each dentist. He would have like performance reviews. Um, he [00:32:40] had internal courses. And I think I learned a lot from observing [00:32:45] that because, you know, most practices don’t do that. They don’t speak to their associates like [00:32:50] the owners will not, you know, especially if it’s corporate won’t really speak to their associates. Um, [00:32:55] so I think embedding a structure and a culture in [00:33:00] your practice is really important, but it’s a tricky one because associates [00:33:05] are self-employed. They don’t like to be over scrutinised. Um. I don’t think [00:33:10] there’s like a perfect answer, but what I have um, found and this was a huge part of why [00:33:15] we launched Medicube is that you’ve got to give your associates [00:33:20] the tools they need to make money. Like if you’re trying to make cuts and you’re [00:33:25] sort of like, oh, we can’t really get an optra gate or we can’t get like that [00:33:30] clamp you want or whatever it or even like a face bow like they [00:33:35] are, you know, get them a face bow, for God’s sakes. Like if they’re asking you, they’ve done a course, they want [00:33:40] to get it for them because they’re going to generate, you know, ten X that in revenue or whatever, [00:33:45] just do it. But I see a lot of, um, practices trying to make cuts. If [00:33:50] you’re not going to give your associates the tools to make money, they’re not going to make money.

Payman Langroudi: So true, man. [00:33:55] I don’t know, maybe it’s the one moving part they can affect. [00:34:00]

[BOTH]: I mean, yeah, but.

Payman Langroudi: The total cost to the practice of all the materials [00:34:05] they buy, if it’s a crazy spender, is, [00:34:10] I don’t know, 8%. And if it’s a totally tight guy, [00:34:15] it’s like 6%.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s not going to make a big difference to the final. [00:34:20] Yeah. But you’re right about the associate. If there’s a material or a technique [00:34:25] that is the right one, and then you can hand on heart, tell your patient, I can do [00:34:30] this. The tonality in your voice is going to make that treatment go through. You’re going [00:34:35] to do it right. You’re not going to get an unhappy patient at the end of it. Like all these little things. Yeah, but [00:34:40] but somehow it’s like people are more focussed on the cost of things than on the profit [00:34:45] that they can generate.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: And they’ve got it so wrong. And you know what’s really frustrating [00:34:50] when you’re dealing with a, um, you know, a [00:34:55] head nurse or something and you have to go through the head nurse to get this piece of equipment, [00:35:00] but it makes no sense.

Payman Langroudi: It’s in the corporate setting.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I mean, I’ve seen that a lot, not [00:35:05] just in corporate settings. I think they, they, you know, often be done to, [00:35:10] you know, ask that person and then that person has a budget and, you know, and it’s [00:35:15] kind of like, okay, but it’s going to take me an hour longer to, [00:35:20] you know, and at my hourly rate. Is that really going to make sense? What if we [00:35:25] order this tool, we have it and you know, everyone’s happy. Patients are happy, [00:35:30] you know? So I think that I think there is maybe there’s just actually [00:35:35] a bit of a problem with how dentistry is structured. And like, I really [00:35:40] enjoy like thought experiments and like disruption. I really, really like love things [00:35:45] like that. I do think like the whole head nurse thing, [00:35:50] like, does it work? Like, does it really work? You know, head nurse ordering stock, [00:35:55] um, and things like that. I don’t know if there needs to be like another. [00:36:00]

[BOTH]: Um, what you often.

Payman Langroudi: See the opposite problem, where they haven’t [00:36:05] assigned any one head nurse and someone like the owner himself is, is doing the work [00:36:10] that the owner shouldn’t be doing, you know? So you see that side as well?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. And then you [00:36:15] see the other thing where sometimes the practice manager does everything and they’re non-clinical and they don’t [00:36:20] understand. And so I don’t.

[BOTH]: Know, you’re.

Payman Langroudi: A hooper now.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I’m at Bupa now.

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And have you been [00:36:25] at other corporates as well.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I’ve been at a lot of corporates.

[BOTH]: I’ve probably.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Been at five [00:36:30] different.

[BOTH]: Corporates.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: About five corporates. And then independence. So I [00:36:35] worked at Smart Dental for a bit. I worked at Obex. [00:36:40]

[BOTH]: Oh were you? I worked at.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Inspire. I think [00:36:45] it’s called inspire. Um, um, I honestly, [00:36:50] I need to, I need to look at my CV. No, I nearly took a job with my dentist. [00:36:55] I didn’t take one in the end with them. They use R4. I’m not really keen on R4.

Payman Langroudi: Any [00:37:00] war.

[BOTH]: But they don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about now.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Um, so Bupa is good. [00:37:05] Bupa is good. I like the way they run. Um, but no, I don’t [00:37:10] have a lot of opinions really on the way. And also I find with Bupa as well, like I [00:37:15] know I’ve spoken to management a few times like the higher tier management. Um, [00:37:20] and they’re not that open to receiving feedback either, [00:37:25] which I find really interesting. Um, so I think generally in the Dental world, you do find like [00:37:30] they don’t, people just sort of don’t want to know if you’ve got feedback for them. [00:37:35]

Payman Langroudi: I don’t think generally you can, you can, you can generalise about that. Yeah. Because there are lots of very [00:37:40] innovative dentists out there with the corporate you have to understand, right. 8000 [00:37:45] people under Mark Allen, you know.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: 8000.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:37:50] With over 100 number of sites they’ve got.

[BOTH]: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Um I mean [00:37:55] I get it as well, insomuch as even if he wants to do X, Y, and Z. Not possible. [00:38:00] That’s a tanker.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I find quite interesting in that they they sort of high [00:38:05] on their own supply of, of that question of we’re a non-profit, which is cool [00:38:10] in a way. Yeah. It’s nice. It’s a nice thing, you know, that profit isn’t the absolute [00:38:15] centre of everything.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And yet in the end, profit is. Right. [00:38:20]

[BOTH]: So yeah, you’ve got to.

Payman Langroudi: Someone’s got to be responsible for budgets.

[BOTH]: And.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:38:25] all of that. But it’s just nice to hear them talk the way they were.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very [00:38:30] idealistic.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I mean, but you know, I’ve looked at I looked at buying a dental practice [00:38:35] a few years ago. Yeah, yeah. So I really explored what I was going to do for a long time before I decided [00:38:40] I was going to do this. Um, and I looked at the [00:38:45] margins of dental practices and I can see how they are very tight at [00:38:50] like it is hard for dental owners. I wouldn’t, I don’t envy all of their positions [00:38:55] too, To because at the same time, like I’m talking as an associate, and if I was [00:39:00] in that situation.

[BOTH]: Very.

Payman Langroudi: Different.

[BOTH]: Very.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Different, I would fully understand. Like their margins are tight. You [00:39:05] know, you’ve got a lot of moving parts. You’re keeping a lot of people happy.

[BOTH]: People short staffed, [00:39:10] all of this.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got a friend. He’s, uh, doing a nuclear power station. [00:39:15]

[BOTH]: Oh, cool.

Payman Langroudi: Sounds like a crazy notion, right?

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I was asking him, you know, like, [00:39:20] like, where do you even start? Like a nuclear power station, you know? And [00:39:25] he said, you know, there’s not that many humans involved. Yeah. And, and, and it’s humans [00:39:30] that are the problem.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Humans are the problem.

[BOTH]: I think.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: That’s so terrible to say.

[BOTH]: But, but.

Payman Langroudi: In dentistry, right? It’s, [00:39:35] it’s only humans, right? It’s patients, it’s staff, you know, it’s all about humans. [00:39:40]

[BOTH]: And so it’s such an unknown.

Payman Langroudi: Um, thing. And I [00:39:45] was in a restaurant last night. Yeah. And you realise even in a restaurant, you realise it’s only humans. It’s [00:39:50] not about food. You know, the food is a very simple process that they’ve, they’ve got down to a t.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: They [00:39:55] know how to make their food. But, you know, there was a rowdy table on one side. [00:40:00] There were people walking in saying they had a reservation even though there wasn’t a table available [00:40:05] for them. Like just stuff like that.

[BOTH]: Yeah, I’m watching.

Payman Langroudi: Watching the staff, you know, because you do when you, [00:40:10] when you when you’ve been in business for a while.

[BOTH]: You start watching how.

Payman Langroudi: Is the business operating?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I’ve noticed [00:40:15] that.

[BOTH]: About.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: When I go to dinner with other business people and they’re like, I was left waiting at the door [00:40:20] for ten minutes and can’t do that in Mayfair.

[BOTH]: Yeah. And I remember.

Payman Langroudi: Going to [00:40:25] a private practice in the city, um, from Kent. I [00:40:30] was in Kent in a private practice and I thought to myself, I’m killing in Kent. [00:40:35] I really was, I was having a great, I was doing these veneers.

[BOTH]: Amazing. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then, and then I thought, if I go [00:40:40] to the city, imagine I’m going to destroy. I’m going to be amazing.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I got to the city and totally [00:40:45] different patients. Yeah. Number one and a nightmare to to sell anything to them because they’re [00:40:50] all salesmen themselves, right? Um, but number two, if you kept them waiting. Five [00:40:55] minutes. Five minutes. Yeah. I had a massive complaint because I was five minutes late for [00:41:00] someone. And by the way, he didn’t even wait. He left. He left. His [00:41:05] appointment was, you know, 130, whatever it was. At 135, he was out. Yeah. He left and made a [00:41:10] massive complaint, you know, and it’s like such a nightmare. It’s like humans, right?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. [00:41:15]

Payman Langroudi: Um, give me your private practice.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Experience.

Payman Langroudi: Experience. [00:41:20] But also, you know, there’s a bunch of people who in the health service were in mixed [00:41:25] and they’re looking to go private.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What are your sort of takeaways from [00:41:30] surviving and, and excelling in private compared to NHS?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: This [00:41:35] is so it’s do you know what I would say. Payman like I thought [00:41:40] I worked NHS and I work private and I always thought it was greener on [00:41:45] the other side, you know, like, oh, it’s better if you work private. Oh it’s better if you work NHS because you get all [00:41:50] these updates, you know what you’re getting and vice versa with private. But I don’t think [00:41:55] there’s one easy answer. I think with NHS, you’re [00:42:00] just. The key element is you’re switching tasks regularly. So [00:42:05] that’s very hard on your, uh, brainpower basically like a lot. There’s a lot [00:42:10] of people that don’t do well with task switching and especially your nurse is [00:42:15] probably going to ask you, oh, what were you doing for the next one? What am I setting up? Do you want to make tricks? Do you want this? And [00:42:20] that’s quite hard, right? But whereas when you’re seeing when you’re doing private, you’re only seeing maybe like [00:42:25] ten, 12 patients, but you’re having a lot more discussions, you’re having to document [00:42:30] more. Um, it’s just, it’s just different. I mean, personally for me, [00:42:35] I am somebody that doesn’t like task switching. So for that reason, I prefer [00:42:40] private, I enjoy private, I enjoy doing big cases. I do a lot of full mouth [00:42:45] rehab cases. Yeah, yeah, I do. And I love them. I absolutely love them. They’re my favourite thing. [00:42:50]

Payman Langroudi: Did you learn those? Chris Hall, Chris or.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I also did the Dawson Academy course. They were fantastic. [00:42:55] Yes. Yeah. Before he, uh, closed. I was so lucky to get in before he closed. [00:43:00] He was amazing. And. But I go to. I will go to America sometimes [00:43:05] for conferences, you know, like the New York Dental conference, the Chicago Dental conference. I’m going to [00:43:10] do that more and more now. Um, because I love American dentistry. I think it’s [00:43:15] amazing. Like I love.

Payman Langroudi: I love their optimism around [00:43:20] it.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I just love Americans and the way they are. Like, they just, [00:43:25] I don’t know, they’re just so funny. Like there’s, they’re just so optimistic about everything. Yeah. [00:43:30] Um, but yeah, I think, you know, going back to what you said about like, what’s [00:43:35] better, I think private practice, you are seeing less patients. [00:43:40] It’s usually more methodical. It’s less stressful in that [00:43:45] sense. The patients tend to be like paying, you know, some form [00:43:50] of insurance now. So I don’t know, we get that a lot on Bupa where they’re like, you know, sometimes you get dem [00:43:55] plan patients or you get people on.

Payman Langroudi: Have you been benefiting from this Bupa thing where they’re sending you patients with £300? [00:44:00] Uh, what.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Do you.

Payman Langroudi: Mean? Well, if you’ve got Bupa health insurance, maybe it’s not the same. If [00:44:05] you’ve got Bupa health insurance, Bupa is now saying you can turn up at Bupa dentist with [00:44:10] £300 credit and spend.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Oh no, they’re not doing that where I am. No no no I [00:44:15] haven’t seen that. No no. Do dentists like that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Oh okay. Suddenly books are full of people [00:44:20] who’ve got £300 to spend.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Good. Yeah, that is good.

Payman Langroudi: Obviously from the Bupa perspective they spend £301 [00:44:25] before anything, before they get any credit, keeping their dentists happy, [00:44:30] you know.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: That’s true. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I’m sure other people are a bit pissed off about it. But but but then, you know, if Bupa [00:44:35] doesn’t leverage this sort of thing, what’s the point of having a Bupa, you know?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. So is it coming off of Bupa kind [00:44:40] of revenue.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. They’re they’re giving each medical [00:44:45] I suppose. Look their main business is medical insurance, so keeping those people happy is their main business. [00:44:50] Keeping their dentists happy is their second business. You know, when you own a corporate, the way [00:44:55] to think about it is your customer is the dentist.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. That’s true.

Payman Langroudi: You know, because.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: That is [00:45:00] true.

Payman Langroudi: Dentists turnover is the most expensive thing that can happen.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Oh, God. You’re absolutely right. I [00:45:05] mean, they pay like a lot of money for these sorts.

Payman Langroudi: Of things.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Right? Yeah. [00:45:10] No. It’s crazy.

Payman Langroudi: Um, let’s get on to consent. Medicube. [00:45:15] Why did you go in this direction? So we’ve got the basic idea [00:45:20] of why you were having sort of these existential thoughts. Because I don’t know, man, if [00:45:25] I, if I didn’t know that you started this business, I’d say, here’s a real super happy dentist. [00:45:30] Oh, you’re doing high end stuff.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I’ll tell you what it is.

Payman Langroudi: Practice. You know, like things [00:45:35] are good.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Well, I’ll tell you what it is. So the question you asked me about why NHS, why private. That’s [00:45:40] that’s very relevant. Because what I realised was I realised very early on, like I did a bit [00:45:45] of everything and nothing. Um. Firstly, nothing was keeping me happy, but [00:45:50] also if a complaint happened, it was so detrimental to my [00:45:55] health and wellbeing I would be so stressed about it. I’d be up like, you [00:46:00] know, probably for two months. I’d be like really ruminating over it.

Payman Langroudi: Listen, I gave [00:46:05] up dentistry 13 years ago. Yeah, one letter still bothers me. Nothing. [00:46:10]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Nothing came of it. It’s a real thing, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: But it was the sentiment in the letter.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: But [00:46:15] the interesting thing is that’s not that’s not actually understood outside of dental [00:46:20] circles. So the pressure and how much it impacts you. And in [00:46:25] addition, because I worked at so many practices, seeing how other people’s behaviour [00:46:30] can actually like pass a liability on to me. It made [00:46:35] me think, I can’t do this job because I can’t actually control anything. Like [00:46:40] it’s too unpredictable. There’s no system. I start from scratch every [00:46:45] day, pretty much everywhere I go. Then I’m given a random new nurse, or there’s a new person [00:46:50] or reception who doesn’t know how I work. I was like, I can’t do this. This is impossible. [00:46:55] And I thought, even private practice doesn’t really mitigate that stuff. So then realistically, [00:47:00] it was like, well, what’s going to fix this? And that was exactly why Medicube [00:47:05] was born. Um, because now like my interaction with [00:47:10] the patient, okay, we have an interaction in the surgery, but within seconds, [00:47:15] like I’ll say them, I’ll say to them, by the end of the day, you’ll receive a personalised information pack about you, [00:47:20] about what we discussed. Um, if you’re happy to go ahead, next steps, get yourself booked into, [00:47:25] um, you know, your digital smile design appointment will start planning.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Um, [00:47:30] you know, I’ll lay out that foundation, they’ll go home, I’ll send them the information pack. [00:47:35] Everything they need to know is on there. They’ll sign it, they come in. I ask, have you got [00:47:40] any questions? And they’re generally happy. And it’s just super easy. Like, I don’t even need [00:47:45] a treatment coordinator. I don’t need anything. Like I literally [00:47:50] can just make, I can secure high ticket sales by myself without [00:47:55] having to ask a receptionist, can you send this for me? Or having to ask anybody [00:48:00] else, can you do this for me? So it actually creates a little bit of consistency for me. It creates my own [00:48:05] workflow. Like I have my own images that I embed in there. I tell them all the risks that I want to [00:48:10] tell them. Like in addition to, you know, your standard risks, um, it’s something [00:48:15] I can control and I can control it. So, you [00:48:20] know, so to such a high degree that it just gives me that absolute peace of [00:48:25] mind, but not only me.

Payman Langroudi: But where are we at with the product? I mean, is it way past minimum viable [00:48:30] product?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Like, yeah, it’s live, it’s live.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a live working.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: It’s live in Dental practices. [00:48:35] Um, it’s, uh, not many. We’ve got a closed, um, group of [00:48:40] pilot users.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and so talk me through it. So why is, why is it so easy to [00:48:45] produce this document?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Well, so we have, we basically, so we’ve, we’ve piloted this [00:48:50] for two and a half years. We’ve been talking to users. We’ve had like over 130 dentists use it [00:48:55] and tell us what, what they. Um, so.

Payman Langroudi: What were the insights?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: So the insights were huge. Like we [00:49:00] found out things like people want extra signature functionality, which [00:49:05] we built in. Um, some like implant dentists want to be able to send videos. [00:49:10] So we looked at that. So we came up with a solution with that. Um, we, [00:49:15] you know, found that for a lot of dentists, like they can’t explain things like what onlays [00:49:20] are and they’re using like Google search to like, find images and then show it to patients. [00:49:25] So we came up for a solution for that.

Payman Langroudi: So now video library of.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. So now we basically [00:49:30] have a product where we have like we’ve built AI into it as well. So we’ve got like an AI letter [00:49:35] generator. So in seconds you can generate a letter based on like appointment [00:49:40] information, for example.

Payman Langroudi: Based on the notes.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So usually based [00:49:45] on the notes, that’s like the easiest way to do it. Um, and you can have a, um, [00:49:50] just a friendly letter. You can embed your consent forms, you can add different [00:49:55] signature functionality. You can, um, add like Google search images [00:50:00] that are unlicensed and things like that. Uh, you can add videos. It’s [00:50:05] super easy. And the associate in seconds can compile that, send it to a patient because it has an integration. [00:50:10] So that’s it. Like it doesn’t take you any time at all. You [00:50:15] can do it for ten, 12, 15 patients that day if you wanted. [00:50:20] Um, it’s just a completely different way of working. And those patients [00:50:25] feel so cared.

Payman Langroudi: For, plugged into all the different softwares. The patient.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: It’s a web application, so [00:50:30] you just log in. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But how do you get into your care [00:50:35] stack or your.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: So, so we have an integration with Dental at the moment. So [00:50:40] Dental users are the other key focus at the moment. But we are going to build a [00:50:45] Non-integrated version that’s standalone. Um so other users [00:50:50] can enjoy the benefits as well.

Payman Langroudi: So for now you’re only focussed on Dental.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: For now we’re just focussed [00:50:55] on Dental. Yeah. Um, but we’ve done like two and a half year pilots and in that time we found that [00:51:00] complaints firstly, like very few complaints happen. When they do [00:51:05] happen they de escalate so quickly because you’re covered. Well no, not because you’re covered [00:51:10] because you just say to the patient, by the way, do you remember that information pack I sent you? Can you look over it again? They’ll, [00:51:15] you know, you can resend it to them because you still have access to everything. We don’t delete [00:51:20] anything. And patients literally have chosen [00:51:25] to de escalate complaints. They’ve literally said, okay, fair enough. And [00:51:30] they’ve just not taken it any further. We’ve had no refunds. We’ve actually had like half £1 [00:51:35] million worth of private work go through our process. No refunds, no [00:51:40] complaints, no escalations. So it really speaks for itself. We’ve done [00:51:45] very long pilots, and there’s very few products that can [00:51:50] say what we can say, like, you know, patients actually love it. [00:51:55] And we also give patients a survey at the end and like the of [00:52:00] the patients that fill in the survey, like 96% of them are glad that they were sent that additional information. [00:52:05] Um, you know, you’ve got, you’ve got 40% of patients [00:52:10] saying they trust their dentist. More, 60% are saying they’re more relaxed going into their next appointment. So [00:52:15] we’ve got like really key data points.

Payman Langroudi: So just, just, just walk me through it like a [00:52:20] child a little bit. Yeah. So you’re giving them this document, which is part treatment plan, part [00:52:25] consent, and you’re just saying it’s easier [00:52:30] to produce this document really quickly and really and dotting all the I’s [00:52:35] and crossing all the T’s. Yeah. So. But but how? So I’m going to treatment plan a [00:52:40] whitening composite bonding. Yeah, I don’t know. Green. Amber, red. Yeah. In the, in the [00:52:45] in the long run. Full mouth rehab.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: So we, we do an integration with Dental. So you’re doing your [00:52:50] dental visit.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve put that in the notes.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: We have an integration handles that. Yeah. So you. [00:52:55]

Payman Langroudi: And what does it do? It says whitening. These are the risks. These are the benefits.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: So you basically set up your [00:53:00] own templates on our site, on our platform. And we’ve done like a really [00:53:05] nice, um, onboarding, um, with semi semi-automated, [00:53:10] the onboarding. So you can set yourself up with your templates really quickly. Uh, once you’ve got your templates [00:53:15] set up. Yeah, it will pull all the right treatment data, um, from that. [00:53:20] So basically, if you’ve got a treatment plan with whitening, um, veneers and your templates, [00:53:25] uh, look a certain way, it will pull them together. You can add an AI generated [00:53:30] letter. We’ve got a little, um, library, you can select, uh, images [00:53:35] and then you click next. There’s a video section, you can skip it or you can add videos from our stock [00:53:40] library or embed them from third party videos. [00:53:45] Uh, yes, we did. Yeah, yeah, we made them with videographers and then we got dentists to check them and things. [00:53:50] So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So I mean, I expect you can reverse engineer it to some extent. I [00:53:55] know, you know, obviously the whole point of this is to save time and make it, yeah, a clean process. [00:54:00] But I could copy and paste my identity notes into Gemini and tell it to write a [00:54:05] letter and, you know, do it myself.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, you can, you can, but then you’re [00:54:10] still having to, uh, paste that all into. Okay, so there’s a few things [00:54:15] here. So you’re having to paste that into your, uh, interdentally send it to the patient. [00:54:20] You also get no, so you get no information about whether the patient’s opened it. [00:54:25] You get no information about how even how many times you’ve sent that email, um, [00:54:30] how the patient has interacted with it. We log all of that in a report that you’ll [00:54:35] be able to see.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s a receipt from the email.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Uh, well, no. So the [00:54:40] there’s like summaries. So you can like go into that patient’s summary and see what’s happened. So.

Payman Langroudi: But how do [00:54:45] you know he’s opened it? It says it.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: In the patient summary. Yeah yeah yeah. So we’ve got like [00:54:50] so patient summary can go in there. You can see you can just refresh your memory. What did I send them? What [00:54:55] videos did I send them? How much of it is watched? Like we actually log how [00:55:00] much as well is watched? Um, so you get like a lot of intelligent insights. [00:55:05] And we’ve had cases where some of our users have said to us, [00:55:10] some of our dentists have said to us, oh, patient, a patient said they didn’t receive the email and [00:55:15] then they’ve logged, they’ve logged in, looked at the summary and it said, patient’s logged in [00:55:20] and it gives you a time. So like, it’s just so funny because it [00:55:25] helps a lot. Like you do have some patients say, oh, I didn’t, You know, I’ve [00:55:30] had loads of cases where patients say, oh, you quote me a crown. It was a different price. And I’m like, no, [00:55:35] log in, have a look. You’ll see it. Um, it’s so easy and it’s really [00:55:40] easy for patients to log in and verify. Um, I can’t [00:55:45] go into too much detail about that, but we’ve like, you know, we have, our [00:55:50] team is really strong by the way.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about that. So you decide to do this company. [00:55:55] Where did you find your co-founder? Did you go to an accelerator? You did, didn’t you accelerate her. [00:56:00] What was that I saw?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, yeah. So basically in 2019, um, [00:56:05] I decided I was either going to buy a dental practice [00:56:10] and create my own corporate with a few other people, or I was going to like not [00:56:15] do dentistry at all and go into tech. Tech had really, um, interested me because [00:56:20] I had, I was listening to a lot of podcasts about tech. I was obsessed actually [00:56:25] from 2017. I was obsessed with tech and listening [00:56:30] to things about AI and how AI was going to change the world. I mean, they knew there were going to be job losses, [00:56:35] like they suspected in 2018, that there would be 40% of people [00:56:40] jobless because of AI. That was back then. And so anyway, I used to go to a lot [00:56:45] of tech events. Um, and I went to one. It [00:56:50] must have been completely, um, a stroke of luck from the universe [00:56:55] genuinely, because this event was put on Eventbrite, right? It was [00:57:00] actually for UCL students and it shouldn’t have been on Eventbrite, but I saw it. It was a hackathon [00:57:05] at UCL. I was like, it was sponsored by Microsoft.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I was like, I am going. Absolutely. [00:57:10] It was on my day off. I went, um, and the, the lecturers [00:57:15] there were like, oh, we’re so sorry. This is actually just only for students, but you can stay if you like. [00:57:20] So I did, um, and I kind of watched what the students were doing and what they were building [00:57:25] and it was so interesting. And they’re so brilliant, those students. And, um, my [00:57:30] co-founder was doing his PhD at the time. And so I started speaking [00:57:35] to all the PhD students and we just, we just like really got on and we kept [00:57:40] in contact. And then I think it was about six months later, he contacted me [00:57:45] and he said, like, the students need to do something healthcare related. Do you have a project [00:57:50] in mind? And that’s when I started working with the students and building prototypes with them. And [00:57:55] I started doing lots of courses on UX and UI design and learning about [00:58:00] just tech and how to manage a team and how to manage sprints and all of this. And, [00:58:05] um, then.

Payman Langroudi: Is that what you do? You do sprints?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. We do. Yeah, yeah. Basically, [00:58:10] I wouldn’t say I’m the best at it, but like, to be honest, I’ve been managing a team for like [00:58:15] five years.

Payman Langroudi: Two weeks sprints.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, yeah, we do two week sprints. Yeah. So you just basically [00:58:20] we use Trello and we just have like list our requirements. [00:58:25] And, you know, it’s actually very simple. Um, and so now [00:58:30] we’re like UCL bronze part, we’re a UCL bronze partner. So we go, we, we work with students a lot, [00:58:35] um, which is really incredible because they are so brilliant and we work with master’s [00:58:40] students now. Um, so.

Payman Langroudi: You’re basically getting that for free, huh?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Through my co-founder. [00:58:45] So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Otherwise you’d have to pay for all that.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, yeah, you’d have to pay a lot of money for [00:58:50] it.

Payman Langroudi: So did you raise cash as well?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: We, um, won a few awards, so [00:58:55] we put in some applications and we won awards and they came with cash awards. So it was [00:59:00] like tech starts. So, um, so basically they’re grants and some of them were [00:59:05] awards, some of them were grants, um.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of better than an investor, right? Just cash. Yeah, [00:59:10] yeah. How much like how much can you get from something like that?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: So it varies. Um, but [00:59:15] I mean, in total, we, I mean, we haven’t taken a crazy amount. We’ve, we’ve built our product [00:59:20] with about Thousand of pounds worth of money that we were awarded [00:59:25] from various different grants.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, we’re super [00:59:30] lean, we are super lean. But then also, you have to remember that like my co-founder is [00:59:35] a professor at UCL and his time is worth a lot. So he puts in all this time. [00:59:40] So it’s all the goodwill as well.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but does he own some of the company?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, yeah, [00:59:45] yeah. He’s a co-founder. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, and yeah, it just, [00:59:50] it was just so interesting, our journey and then we just started to onboard users.

Payman Langroudi: Test pilot not [00:59:55] profitable yet.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Uh, no, no, I think so.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your runway? I mean, how much longer have you [01:00:00] got.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Now that I can’t talk about that I can’t talk about.

Payman Langroudi: You must be like you’re [01:00:05] aware of that number.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, yeah, 100%. We’re fully aware.

Payman Langroudi: You have to raise money.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So [01:00:10] we are looking to raise um, and yeah, I think we’ve, [01:00:15] we’ve not wanted to, we’ve held it off. We’ve bootstrapped for pretty long actually. We’ve [01:00:20] done really well. Um, because we were like, we are revenue generating.

Payman Langroudi: That’s interesting, isn’t it? [01:00:25] Crowns and fillings are kind of paying for this company.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I was the same with an item. It was the same. It [01:00:30] was the same with the lighting. My wife’s dentistry and my partner’s denture. I gave up altogether and [01:00:35] just focussed on this for the first five years. Yeah, but my three I’ve got three partners are [01:00:40] all dentists. Yeah. And they were paying me like some ridiculously small amount of money [01:00:45] to, to, to, to do this. Right.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Amazing. Is that how it worked? Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:00:50] yeah. But but but I mean, it was a different time. Yeah. It was. Yeah. They weren’t things [01:00:55] like accelerators and.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. Yeah. So we’ve, I mean, [01:01:00] I think you’re right. So the accelerator thing we got on that um, through that NatWest [01:01:05] and you know Barclays Eagle labs do that. So we apply for a lot of things and we get a lot [01:01:10] of things to be honest like but.

Payman Langroudi: So the journey from dentist. [01:01:15] Yeah. You’re clearly talking all the language of Start-Up now.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:01:20] know it’s a good thing. It’s a good thing. But the, the I’ve seen people go through [01:01:25] that process, right, of someone who comes to me. People come to me all the time with little ideas, right? [01:01:30] Try this, try that. And you can see this person is clueless. There’s no idea [01:01:35] what the hell they’re talking about. And then I’ve often my. These days, my advice is often [01:01:40] just go to an accelerator because they tend to weed. Weed out.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: And then [01:01:45] sometimes they get going on an eight week accelerator, not even a long thing, and come out the [01:01:50] other side talking a whole other language. Yeah. And, and much clearer [01:01:55] on where they want to go with a co-founder. And, you know, we’re making investment pitches left, right. [01:02:00] Yeah. And it’s a wonderful thing. It’s a wonderful. So is that what you know? Is that your education? [01:02:05] I mean, you’re saying you’re saying you you were going to tech conferences on your own back.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I mean, yeah, [01:02:10] for me, it was very different because again, like 2019 was quite a different time. So [01:02:15] for me, I did a lot of research into tech, really understanding what I wanted to do.

Payman Langroudi: Tech. How [01:02:20] did it come about? Tech. Have you got like a brother or a sister or a friend or something?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: No, no, I tell you what it was, it’s funny. [01:02:25] There was one moment like there was actually one defining moment for me. And that was, um, so [01:02:30] I was, I was watching, uh, it must have been like it was [01:02:35] a documentary. It was either like horizon or something like that. But they were talking about, [01:02:40] um, how they were creating AI, GPS and that was back in [01:02:45] 2018 again. And Babylon Health was doing it and they, the GP could [01:02:50] diagnose a human just through asking a set of triage questions with 80% [01:02:55] accuracy. And a human did it to the same level of accuracy. The single issue was [01:03:00] that sometimes it missed highly risky, um, you [01:03:05] know, misdiagnosed a highly risky case. That was the only reason they couldn’t release [01:03:10] it. Now since then.

Payman Langroudi: 2018.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Now fixed that by now.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. [01:03:15] And I think a lot of um, the, the way culturally people have changed, [01:03:20] like the way people think about AI. That’s happened a lot in the past 2 or 3 years. And they’ve been saying [01:03:25] that like the Turing test, Turing test was like, basically, do [01:03:30] you know what it is? Yeah I do. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Say it, but say it.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. So basically where, you know, can [01:03:35] an AI pass as human? And people were saying for a long time, no, that won’t ever happen. [01:03:40] And like we’ve completely.

Payman Langroudi: Gone.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Past that and no one [01:03:45] spoke about it. And I remember hearing that on a podcast recently and thinking how funny that was.

Payman Langroudi: But I’ve talked to my team, [01:03:50] you know, people who pick up the phone and I’m trying to explain to [01:03:55] them, you know, that, you know, that’s not going to go on for much longer. And [01:04:00] sometimes they’re sceptical and they say, oh, there’s no way a machine can do better than me. And [01:04:05] then I kind of remind them that, you know, like I go on Amazon and I buy something. [01:04:10] I don’t want to talk to a human. I go on Amazon, I pick the thing, I push the button. [01:04:15] It arrives. Yeah. And the notion that everyone wants to talk to a human. I [01:04:20] kind of don’t want to talk to a human. Yeah. You know, I.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Think that’s a London thing, by the way. [01:04:25]

Payman Langroudi: But if I want to buy a flight or something, there was a time. If you wanted to buy a flight, you had to talk to a human. [01:04:30] Yeah. Now we all take it for granted. Yeah, yeah.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, totally.

Payman Langroudi: You know, so the world [01:04:35] is going to change. Your job is not going to get taken by an AI. Your job is going to be taken by someone who knows how to use an [01:04:40] AI, right? You can who can leverage. And this thing you’re saying about 40% of jobs [01:04:45] will go. It’s highly possible.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But it really depends on the number of new jobs that are [01:04:50] made by AI.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: That’s it. So I think that’s the. So I listened to a lot of things like Ray [01:04:55] Kurzweil and, you know, Geoffrey Hinton and all this and what they’re saying.

Payman Langroudi: About who wants to meet his dad. [01:05:00] His dead dad.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: It would be amazing, but I do [01:05:05] honestly, those there. I mean, they are the most pioneering, [01:05:10] you know, AI specialists out there. And they’ll say things like, you [01:05:15] know, that it’s very like, okay, Geoffrey Hinton is saying like, things are really worrying and stuff. But [01:05:20] aside from that, in terms of the jobs they are saying, you know, realistically, [01:05:25] even 100 years ago, the jobs we had were very different. We lost all [01:05:30] of those jobs and new jobs.

Payman Langroudi: Agriculture.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Exactly. So it’s very likely there will be new [01:05:35] jobs. It’s just people have to be adaptable. That’s the key thing in [01:05:40] this world. You have to be adaptable, open minded.

Payman Langroudi: You know, what’s interesting is there are some [01:05:45] things, some services and products that this elasticity of [01:05:50] demand. So let’s say something. If something gets cheaper, [01:05:55] it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s going to be the same number of that thing being sold. There [01:06:00] are some areas that if the thing gets cheaper, the volume goes through the roof. And so [01:06:05] those things are going to benefit massively. Yeah. So I take the example, my [01:06:10] brother radiologist eyes can read these scans. Yeah, but there’s [01:06:15] way more scans being asked for now.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Interesting. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There’s still medicolegally. The [01:06:20] radiologist has to sign it off. So his life has actually gotten a lot better in a way because [01:06:25] they used the AI tool. A doctor has to sign it off. So he’s still getting paid for being [01:06:30] the doctor. And yet they can put a whole lot more scans through than before. And surprise, [01:06:35] surprise, the the the doctors are asking for the scans are asking for way more [01:06:40] scans. Yeah. There’s elasticity in it.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. That’s great.

Payman Langroudi: So those areas, whatever [01:06:45] they are, like whatever business you’re in, if, if more of it cheaper is going [01:06:50] to get more demand. Yeah, those areas are going to be amazing.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I think you’re right. Like, [01:06:55] I think we’re just pushing towards being more of an efficient civilisation really. That’s like [01:07:00] the key thing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But there’s someone’s job in enlightened to answer, uh, lab [01:07:05] problems. Yeah. Now her job, the number of lab problems [01:07:10] coming in isn’t going to increase even however good we good we get [01:07:15] at answering those questions. Yeah. The number of lab problems that come in are the number of lab problems. So [01:07:20] her job is a much more dangerous position than someone whose job they’ll increase. [01:07:25] Ai will increase the amount coming.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, absolutely. And I think also well, [01:07:30] I think they’re talking a lot about now like AGI, because if you can create [01:07:35] artificial general intelligence, then, you know, it can be used for multiple [01:07:40] tasks realistically. That’s kind of the way it will go. So you’ll still need humans [01:07:45] in the loop is what they call it, where humans are maybe specialists in [01:07:50] areas and they’re managing, you know, the AGI.

Payman Langroudi: Loads [01:07:55] of loads of robots.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. I mean, it’s like, I like my co-founder is the best [01:08:00] person to talk to about this because he’s got all these like great opinions that, you [01:08:05] know, he, because he, he’s like, he even said we had a meet up yesterday actually [01:08:10] with some dentists and he was some of them were asking him about AGI and he was saying that, [01:08:15] um, you know, he, because he’s got contacts in like that are working on Google DeepMind [01:08:20] and all of that. So his opinion is a lot more, um, configured to actually [01:08:25] what thing, what’s out there? Um, whereas I think for most of us, [01:08:30] we’re speculating on, you know, what, what we’re gauging, but we don’t [01:08:35] see the full picture. There’s a lot happening in the labs that we don’t know about. [01:08:40] And there’s a lot of breakthroughs that we don’t know about. And we won’t know about them for another few years. So [01:08:45] I think that’s kind of the what makes people feel a bit uneasy.

Payman Langroudi: Along [01:08:50] with along with, you know, you know, we’ve all had it hallucinate like her. [01:08:55]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And yeah, and that sort of non-zero risk that something crazy [01:09:00] will happen by by mistake. Yeah. Not even on purpose. Yeah. I worry more about the on purpose [01:09:05] thing. Like if someone’s got some AI that’s much more powerful than everyone else. That person [01:09:10] can rule the world, right?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. I mean, that’s the thing I worry about the most. I’m not actually worried about AI. I’m worried [01:09:15] about the humans controlling the AI. Um, and it’s a big, it’s a big thing. Like, [01:09:20] you know, people talk a lot about diversity and I think it gets such a weird [01:09:25] polarity of opinions. But I think realistically, because we have [01:09:30] AI and we’ve got super, super computers, quantum computers, [01:09:35] all these things, you do actually need representation at these top levels [01:09:40] because if you’re not getting it, you’re going to have, um, well, it’s just, [01:09:45] it’s like things are not going to be very user friendly, like to put them in a very simple term, [01:09:50] because if they’re building worlds for people like themselves, it’s not, it’s not going to be good for [01:09:55] everyone. And realistically, I think children get forgotten about a lot generally [01:10:00] in the world. And I think by having representation, you are going to build [01:10:05] a better world for children. I think that’s the most important thing. Like, we can’t just think about the [01:10:10] world for ourselves. We do have to think about the children growing up and what their experience [01:10:15] is going to be like, and how we can ensure that they’re not going to be growing up in a world that’s [01:10:20] like quite dangerous, really, or savage towards them.

Payman Langroudi: I reckon. I reckon [01:10:25] mine and your kids yours particularly because younger um, [01:10:30] could easily date a robot. God, I really believe that. Yeah, I honestly [01:10:35] believe that.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Would you be okay with it?

Payman Langroudi: Well, I just believe it’s going to happen. Yeah. Because. Yeah, [01:10:40] you know, like your for you page on Instagram, let’s say the robot knows you better than you know yourself [01:10:45] like that, like that for you page knows you better than you know yourself. And how far are we from [01:10:50] a humanoid robot, right? That’s affordable.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, not that far.

Payman Langroudi: I.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Think.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Let’s call [01:10:55] it four years.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I think they’re releasing them now. There’s like a £30,000 one [01:11:00] going on the market or something.

Payman Langroudi: There you go. But let’s say, let’s say it’s it can do everything a human [01:11:05] can do. And the brain, a brain of four years [01:11:10] time. Chatgpt.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: So you know what’s interesting about that? Yeah. I think what that’s doing [01:11:15] is playing to our very, uh, reptilian [01:11:20] minds of basically us being fooled [01:11:25] on a subconscious level.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not talking about shagging the robot. I’m not saying that. I’m not saying that.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Well, naturally, [01:11:30] that probably is.

Payman Langroudi: I think the version of that will be with a pair of glasses that messes with your brain, [01:11:35] you know, like you dream it or something. Yeah, but my point is, if the robot can do everything a [01:11:40] human can do in terms of motor skills and spraying is ChatGPT from four years [01:11:45] time. Yeah. Like it’s not only people sitting in front of a screen whose jobs are going to go. [01:11:50] The plumber’s job’s going to go, you know, like the dentist job is going to go potentially potentially. [01:11:55]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, potentially. Yeah. I mean, it’s difficult to imagine what the world would be like, but like [01:12:00] I’m talking on an emotional level, emotional level as well, like partners and stuff. [01:12:05] It could be that, yeah, people start competing with robots for, [01:12:10] for partners. Like that would be insane. But I think that, you know, hopefully [01:12:15] there’s still a human need for companionship that [01:12:20] an AI that knows you really well and says exactly what you want to hear can’t [01:12:25] necessarily satisfy.

Payman Langroudi: Really knows you.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But that’s not [01:12:30] necessarily going to tell you what you want to hear. It could give you exactly what you need. Yeah, yeah. The unpredictability [01:12:35] of a human. Yeah. I find this really interesting question. Yeah. That [01:12:40] if we could transfer your brain to a robot. Ray Kurzweil’s dream come true. Yeah. [01:12:45] If you could transfer your brain to a robot and that robot can look like you and act like you, then [01:12:50] when you die, that robot can carry on as you. Yeah. [01:12:55] Now, for you, it doesn’t really work. Yeah, but for everyone around you, it does in a way. Yeah, I.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Think [01:13:00] no, I don’t think so. I don’t think so.

Payman Langroudi: I think because your soul’s not there.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, well, no, no, I [01:13:05] would say, look, I’ve battled with the soul question a lot and I’ve listened to Sam [01:13:10] Harris. And I honestly, if I’m honest, I can’t really actually stand the guy. I think he comes up with some really [01:13:15] terrible theories.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I like him apart from his Islamophobia.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Oh, [01:13:20] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I like him. Honestly, I like him.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: He I think he he’s very [01:13:25] flawed, actually, in the way he thinks he’s he’s very emotional. That’s what I’ve picked up on him with [01:13:30] him. Um, his theories don’t really make a lot of sense. But in terms of the, in terms [01:13:35] of if you’ve ever loved someone in your life, like really loved them and lost them, [01:13:40] um, there’s a, there’s a, there’s a connection and a magic [01:13:45] about it that you’re, you’re easily not [01:13:50] be satisfied by a robot that just looks like them, says what they want to say or says, you [01:13:55] know, kind of is extrapolated from their past data points, essentially, because [01:14:00] it’s really just making a prediction on how they would behave. But [01:14:05] I just don’t think that’s there’s something missing. There’s like a magic in connecting [01:14:10] with that person. And maybe it goes back to my belief of thinking that we’re all connected, that, you know, you can’t possibly [01:14:15] really connect with a robot. Um, but then what connects us? I [01:14:20] don’t know, it’s difficult. I don’t think I’ll ever have an answer to this question. I’m just.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a funny thing. [01:14:25] I went to a friend’s house. They had a puppy.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, they say puppy eyes. Yeah. [01:14:30] I was staring at this puppy’s eyes. There was something, man. There was some sort of connection, [01:14:35] like you say. Yeah, between me and that puppy. And it was just like. Yeah, [01:14:40] like a love. Just pure love coming out of this puppy’s eyes.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I mean, yeah, but there is, there is something. [01:14:45] There’s something like, you know, they say that we’re mostly made of [01:14:50] space. Um, you know, we’re just like, like most of us [01:14:55] is empty space, right? But we perceive each other. I mean that if [01:15:00] you think about that, like that’s completely separate, we’re sensing each other. And [01:15:05] so how can a robot replicate that? What we’re sensing of each [01:15:10] other that electromagnetic.

Payman Langroudi: The thing is, though, you know what I think about sometimes, let’s [01:15:15] say, um, let’s just keep it really simple. Let’s say you get drunk. Yeah. [01:15:20]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And and you know, the way your mind and and, and vision [01:15:25] and decisions are when you’re drunk. Mhm. Yeah.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I know what you [01:15:30] wanted to say. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Now, let’s say that that is [01:15:35] that was normal. Yeah. And this was drunk. Yeah. [01:15:40] Yeah. And there’s no reason why, you know, anything is normal or not. Like. Like if we could [01:15:45] see X-rays and if we could see radio waves, this would be a very different [01:15:50] room. Yeah. They’d be crap going through. Yeah, but we can’t. Yeah. So. So I [01:15:55] often wonder about that. You know, like, is my chemistry maybe slightly different [01:16:00] to your chemistry? Yeah. And you’re seeing my orange is blue and I’m seeing your blue as [01:16:05] red. Yeah. And then, but then real the experience piece, you know, like you’re saying, you seem [01:16:10] so sure that we’re all connected. Yeah. Why?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Well, I think, um. [01:16:15]

Payman Langroudi: You’re experiencing it somehow.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, I think you’re right. I mean, like, a lot of, uh. What’s [01:16:20] really interesting is like, your body grows your brain and your brain [01:16:25] controls your body. And there’s like that connection between your brain and body and, [01:16:30] but your brain chemistry is a lot of it is kind of environment. It’s part environmental, [01:16:35] part inherited. So you’re going to have traits that run through your family [01:16:40] and your perception will likely be similar to, yeah, your, your, [01:16:45] your family and you could turn out very different, but that’s going to be the perception piece of [01:16:50] maybe how you perceived your environment. Um. But [01:16:55] yeah, it’s, it’s, you’re right. There’s a lot. I think we have to be very [01:17:00] mindful of our limitation that we have, um, a human brain, which isn’t, [01:17:05] you know, even the capacity to which it functions at is quite low. Yeah. Isn’t it [01:17:10] like 10%?

Payman Langroudi: Probably.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: It’s something really like stupidly low. And have you [01:17:15] heard that? Apparently we’ve got 36 sensors, something along those lines.

Payman Langroudi: I can imagine. [01:17:20]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: That we we’re not aware of apparently.

Payman Langroudi: Like time space.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. Yeah. Loads like [01:17:25] loads of things like, um, like even, uh, you know, they say one of them is like when you [01:17:30] think someone’s going to call you or you think about someone and then they call you, you know, that one?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’ve got a theory [01:17:35] on that one.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Go on.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So let’s imagine me and you are buddies, like, like like your buddies with your friends in [01:17:40] Liverpool. Yeah, but you and one of them. Yeah. Call each other, like, [01:17:45] within a five week or five month timescale. [01:17:50] Yeah. And there’s actually a very accurate clock in your head. That’s counting [01:17:55] that time potentially.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s a subconscious clock in your head. [01:18:00] It’s a feeling you get when that time comes around. When you’re four and a half weeks in, the clock in your [01:18:05] head is going, haven’t. It’s about time I contact that person. Yeah. And [01:18:10] it’s similar with the clock in her head. And so you’re thinking about it and then suddenly it rings.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I [01:18:15] feel like that’s way more complicated than telepathy. It [01:18:20] could be. I mean, I’ve had situations where I, I’ve got friends that I don’t message really [01:18:25] like ever. This was at school even, um, and I remember messaging [01:18:30] somebody and he messaged me at the same time and it was so [01:18:35] bizarre. And we were like, did you just message me? And I was asking him about a school project or something. But [01:18:40] things like that have.

Payman Langroudi: An element of assigning meaning to coincidences.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right. I want to [01:18:45] make meaning of the world. You’re right, by the way. I’m not rejecting it.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: No, no.

Payman Langroudi: Who’s to say? But [01:18:50] you know.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: A thousand years ago, no one understood light or electricity or whatever, you know. [01:18:55]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. But I think I do think that, um, with human experience, I think sometimes when [01:19:00] you experience stuff, you know, it’s real and it’s just intuition. You don’t know how you know it’s [01:19:05] real. You can’t explain it to anyone because you’ll sound crazy, but you just know.

Payman Langroudi: But you know, the reason [01:19:10] I’m saying about, I think experiences and AI and all that is, you know, you have a dream [01:19:15] feels really real. Yeah, yeah. Is it real? It’s not, [01:19:20] it’s not. Well, there are certain chemicals going on in your head that making this dream happen. Yeah.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: So [01:19:25] that’s a good point.

Payman Langroudi: Once, once they figure out those chemicals. Yeah. They say, oh, in his dream, like, [01:19:30] state what you can, you can download a dream into someone’s head. Yeah. Then like [01:19:35] the sky’s the limit.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: It’s true. It’s interesting. Why do we dream? And I mean, they’ve done a lot [01:19:40] of research into it.

Payman Langroudi: How do we dream? Why? I get some sort of processing or whatever for the information. [01:19:45] But if you could do that, if I could download a James Bond dream into your head and [01:19:50] you can now go and have that experience. Yeah, like it’s as real as it could [01:19:55] possibly be while you’re asleep. You feel like it’s really happening sometimes. Yeah. I haven’t [01:20:00] dreamt for a long time.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: But again, you have people that say things like, [01:20:05] I had a dream about something.

Payman Langroudi: And then it.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Happened and then it happened. And so how do you explain that? [01:20:10] You know, again, it could be coincidence. It seems like a very unusual coincidence when you have [01:20:15] deja vu where you’re like, I have dreamt this before.

Payman Langroudi: So deja vu, I heard someone was saying, it’s like the left [01:20:20] and right side of your brain, right? There’s a there’s a lag between the communication.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Between. [01:20:25]

Payman Langroudi: Left and right. Well who knows? But that’s what I read. There’s a lag between the connection between the left and right. And so in a way, [01:20:30] you feel like you’ve been here already.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: But that’s I’ve had a lot of very, [01:20:35] very spiritual experiences in my life. Actually, when I, when I think about it, what do you.

Payman Langroudi: Mean by that? [01:20:40]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Um, it’s weird stuff. Weird.

Payman Langroudi: It’s difficult to put it into words. Yeah. Because by its very nature, [01:20:45] you say spiritual. It’s almost like words. I know it sounds.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: So crazy [01:20:50] and airy fairy and stuff, but no, I’ve had I’ve had dreams where, um. Oh, and [01:20:55] I honestly don’t talk about it a lot because it’s weird, but I’ve had dreams where like, [01:21:00] um, I’m, I’ve woken up really emotional and [01:21:05] it, it tended to be when I was younger, like I don’t get them as much anymore. But when I was really young, I would have, uh, [01:21:10] I had a really crazy dream about my grandma contacting me and [01:21:15] I didn’t see her face. I just saw her hands. But I knew it was her. And she was passing on a message and a few things [01:21:20] that happened in the dream, like played out in the next 20 years. And it was just really [01:21:25] highly emotional. And my mum had kind of done a reading for her the day before, which I didn’t know about. [01:21:30] Um, and uh, yeah, it was just, it was honestly [01:21:35] very strange, but she would, she had basically told me, um, that she was [01:21:40] really not happy in this dream. And it turned out like we, yeah, we had [01:21:45] a few really awful things happen in our family over the next 20 years. And then when I look back at the dreams, [01:21:50] I realised kind of the scenes that were happening, what they meant. [01:21:55] Um, so it’s just very hard to explain, but that [01:22:00] was a really unusual moment in my life. Like I’ve probably, that was probably the only one [01:22:05] time. And, um, I’m certain that that was [01:22:10] something extraordinary and not normal. Um, and that’s happened a few times [01:22:15] to me. And another time when I was pregnant, I had, um, an experience and, [01:22:20] um, sorry, my boots are rubbing and, um, [01:22:25] and, um, yeah, I had an experience and I know that it was just very [01:22:30] strange. It could have been somebody from the other side. And I know that sounds so crazy, but [01:22:35] you’re so sure of it because it’s, it’s, it’s [01:22:40] a collection of things that would be too much of a coincidence otherwise. Um. [01:22:45] But anyway, at the risk of sounding like.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you can’t rule any of this stuff out, man. You can’t rule any of [01:22:50] this stuff out. We don’t know.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: But I’m really into physics, right?

Payman Langroudi: And that’s I find that quite interesting. Right?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Physics [01:22:55] is physics talks about, you know, different universes.

Payman Langroudi: Multiverse. [01:23:00]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Thing that’s ever that could possibly happen has happened. Um, there’s, [01:23:05] I think physics is so wacky that [01:23:10] anything’s possible. It almost gives you a reason to believe this stuff. [01:23:15]

Payman Langroudi: Like quantum entanglement.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like I.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Couldn’t explain what it is, but yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:23:20] but it’s like you get two, two particles entangled, right? And it doesn’t matter if they’re [01:23:25] on the other side of the universe. When this one moves, that one will move. [01:23:30] Yeah. And we know the speed of light, you know? Question. So how the hell are these [01:23:35] two associated with each other?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That far away, like it seems impossible, [01:23:40] right? But but it’s a real thing. Quantum tunnelling is a real thing. Yeah, they’re talking about that’s how we would [01:23:45] eventually, once Elon gets to Mars, that’s how we’ll communicate. Because if you if [01:23:50] you rely on the speed of light, it takes eight minutes to get to Mars or whatever. Yeah.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: These [01:23:55] are all this is like literally how things should be innovated. Like you use these concepts. [01:24:00] Yeah. And, um, and I think, yeah, maybe that’s, maybe that’s why I am, I come across [01:24:05] so wacky is because like, I don’t, I think anything’s possible. No, no, genuinely like I think [01:24:10] anything’s possible. And I do think that, um, you’ve got to trust your intuition [01:24:15] a lot. Like as a human, we’re very lucky. Yeah, yeah, 100% trust my intuition.

Payman Langroudi: Have you always. [01:24:20]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: No, it’s more of a recent thing.

Payman Langroudi: Me, too.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So I used to be [01:24:25] the opposite of intuition. Yeah, I used to, so not believe in it. Yeah. That if [01:24:30] I felt like, oh, I should turn right here or whatever the decision was, I’d go the [01:24:35] opposite. Just to prove that I’m a scientist, although. And it would just, it would get me in all sorts of trouble [01:24:40] and then sometimes, or a lot of times you see like really successful people [01:24:45] and they say, just feel it in my stomach. And I go with that feeling. And I thought, let’s try that. [01:24:50] In the last ten years, I’ll be much more like trying to be intuitive. Yeah. And it serves you. It’s like, it’s [01:24:55] almost like you’re skiing downhill instead of uphill. Yes.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, it’s very true. I think if you’re very [01:25:00] clear on, I think with intuition, if you’re very clear on your goal, you’re [01:25:05] very clear on where you’re going and why you’re going there, then intuition will guide you. Like [01:25:10] I’m a big believer in that.

Payman Langroudi: But do you get like a bad feeling about [01:25:15] someone and for no reason? My business partner is like, he doesn’t he doesn’t like that guy. He doesn’t [01:25:20] know why.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Do you know what’s funny? I have had that in my life. And then sometimes I realise that it’s because they [01:25:25] remind me of someone I don’t like and I’m like, oh, damn, that’s that’s like my reptilian [01:25:30] brain just being stupid. So no, you have to, you kind of have to obviously like, but [01:25:35] look, I think when you’re we’ve got to be More nurturing [01:25:40] towards that side of our human self that perceives stuff that [01:25:45] we don’t necessarily know is happening. And I think that’s what is important to trust [01:25:50] in your life, you know? Um, you know, if you know who you really are and you know [01:25:55] why you’re doing something, then naturally you’ll trust your intuition. [01:26:00] It is going to guide you. It’s going to help you see the right opportunities. And it’s subconscious. [01:26:05] I think like a lot of it is kind of your internal calculator [01:26:10] sort of being like, oh, this is the right path. You got to trust it because I also like doing [01:26:15] what I do. I speak to a lot of business mentors and I get really frustrated actually, [01:26:20] because like, I’ve got a lot of business mentors that are amazing and they, they will tell me exactly [01:26:25] like what I’m doing right, what I’m doing wrong. And they will almost tell me where [01:26:30] I’m going to go wrong and they’ll get it right. And that’s like, oh, I should have listened to them.

Payman Langroudi: Where do [01:26:35] you find these business mentors from the, oh, like accelerator programs?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. Different programs like accelerator [01:26:40] programs. Um, honestly, sometimes I just meet them randomly. Um, [01:26:45] like, again, really weird coincidences, like met one business [01:26:50] mentor on the plane when I was flying with my nine month old daughter. I [01:26:55] was flying for a business thing as well. And, um, I just started talking to him about my business [01:27:00] and he’s been one of my best mentors and he’s like guided me through a lot of [01:27:05] stuff. Um, and we just kept in touch and he’s been great. I think a lot. You know, that’s intuition [01:27:10] though, isn’t it? Like you start speaking to someone.

Payman Langroudi: I reckon you’re a real sucker for, for [01:27:15] kismet. Like for for for for fate. Yeah. And coincidence. [01:27:20] You know, someone could take massive advantage of you that way, you know, like, maybe, you know, that notion of [01:27:25] arrange. You can arrange a couple of coincidences.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I [01:27:30] am very.

Payman Langroudi: You’d fall for that?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: No, not at all. I’m super sceptical. I mean, my [01:27:35] upbringing, like I have to figure things out.

Payman Langroudi: And have you heard of that? That that idea? Let’s [01:27:40] imagine that you go to the play and [01:27:45] someone’s sitting next to you, and then you sit on a plane and that person sitting next to you. Like for you.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Oh, no, [01:27:50] I’m not like that.

Payman Langroudi: For you, that would that would tell you all sorts of stories. No.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I’m [01:27:55] not that gullible.

Payman Langroudi: You know.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I’m really not.

Payman Langroudi: Well, that’s an amazing coincidence.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I’m really not. Like [01:28:00] when I, when I talk about, um, people that I’ve built these relationships [01:28:05] with, it’s been over years, you know? So I [01:28:10] gauge character over a long period of time. I’m not someone that’s like, oh my God, [01:28:15] like a coincidence. We must open a business together. Like, [01:28:20] no, I’m, I am a very I’m actually a very sceptical person. Um, but [01:28:25] I realised how wacky I probably sound with. But no, I [01:28:30] genuinely think when you learn about physics.

Payman Langroudi: Your mind opens.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Your mind [01:28:35] opens.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I agree, massively.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Massively.

Payman Langroudi: We like to talk about mistakes on this [01:28:40] pod.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course I want to talk about clinical error and I want to talk about business mistake [01:28:45] you made.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Of course. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s start with the business mistake. While we’re on business.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Business mistakes, I [01:28:50] would say. Oh, God.

Payman Langroudi: So many. Right?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I think [01:28:55] no, I.

Payman Langroudi: Think.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: No, no.

Payman Langroudi: There’s so many to choose from. For me. [01:29:00]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: It’s a difficult one because I think you you never know when you’re going right or wrong in business. [01:29:05] You actually see.

Payman Langroudi: In retrospect, you.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: See the aftermath after. Right? So I would say for me. [01:29:10]

Payman Langroudi: I suppose he only been two years, isn’t it?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Well, we start we started.

Payman Langroudi: Business.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: In 2022. [01:29:15] End of. Yeah. Uh, launched our pilot six months later. We’ve been running them for two [01:29:20] and a half years. Um, I guess I won’t really know my mistakes till a couple of years down [01:29:25] the line. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a bit early.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, but I think.

Payman Langroudi: But would you like, for instance, for instance, [01:29:30] some people might think. I wish I’d gotten into it earlier.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: No, I think my, my, my mistakes [01:29:35] genuinely are not being. Sometimes more assertive. And that’s what I’m learning. [01:29:40] Like.

Payman Langroudi: Um, with staff and stuff.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Uh, so with teams. [01:29:45] Yeah, so that’s, I’m learning like to manage a team basically now. Um. And [01:29:50] I think again, when you’re feeling a bit like I’m not getting what I [01:29:55] need out of. Certain people and are they right for this role? Like now I’m a lot [01:30:00] clearer on that and I’m. A lot more kind of self-directed. Um, so I think.

Payman Langroudi: Do [01:30:05] you have a staff or are you.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, we do, we work. We have like eight people and they’re all amazing. Um, [01:30:10] but we have had in the past, like very early on where we’ve, you know, we’ve shifted a lot. We [01:30:15] had like different staff members we were working with. So I think that’s a big thing. [01:30:20] I’m learning, like if it, if you feel like you’re not getting the best out of someone, you need to explore [01:30:25] that feeling. And I would say that’s probably been connected to my biggest [01:30:30] mistake in business, like not speaking earlier. If something [01:30:35] doesn’t feel right, if I’m not getting the results I need. Um, you’ve got to be like direct. [01:30:40]

Payman Langroudi: Avoid conflict kind of thing.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I think look as okay, if you want to talk about being a woman, right? [01:30:45] Being a woman, you’re taught to be a good girl. You’re taught to be [01:30:50] go with the rules, play by the rule book. And what I’ve learned is I [01:30:55] have to do things my way. I’m not a man. I can’t behave like a man. [01:31:00] I can’t adopt, um, male styles of leadership. [01:31:05] I’m still a woman, and I still have to find my style of how I’m going to do this. I think that’s [01:31:10] confusing for people. So when I work with people, they’re often a little bit unsure. [01:31:15] Um, of yeah, of how it’s going to go, how my leadership [01:31:20] style is going to be. And that’s okay. It takes time. Um, but also having [01:31:25] the confidence to be assertive, like I’m definitely at a point in my life now where, yeah, I don’t [01:31:30] I don’t think very much about what people think about me because I’m not really interested. I know what, what we [01:31:35] need to achieve, where we’re going. And I think that takes a lot of, um, pressure [01:31:40] off of myself. And as well, it’s good for other people to feel [01:31:45] that because then they’re not so self-conscious about what they’re doing. I’m very forgiving with, with people [01:31:50] I work with as well. Like they can win things back. But I have to trust that [01:31:55] if I’m not getting the best out of them, you know, you have to talk about whether it’s the right role [01:32:00] for them.

Payman Langroudi: Have you fired anyone?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: We had to let go of someone. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:32:05] know, once once you get in it for a few years. Yeah, yeah. You end up like [01:32:10] sometimes you have to find someone who’s done nothing wrong.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Why would you do that? Just because [01:32:15] of costs.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes it’s costs. Sometimes it’s the role has overtaken [01:32:20] them. Um, you know.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: How did you find that.

Payman Langroudi: A nightmare? [01:32:25]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s horrible letting people go. A to a nightmare in itself, but then you realise [01:32:30] later on you realise like that’s many, many people get fired through [01:32:35] no fault of their own. Yeah, like many people like my buddy with a nuclear [01:32:40] power station, he let 2000 people go. No way in in one moment. [01:32:45] Yeah, because you know that that’s what the business needed it to do.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Wow. That’s [01:32:50] cutthroat.

Payman Langroudi: But he had no choice. He had no choice in that moment. Yeah, yeah. And [01:32:55] I was talking to the guy from Pearl AI. He was saying every single person he’s ever fired didn’t [01:33:00] deserve it. Yeah, because. Because he said if they deserved it, someone else would have fired them. [01:33:05] So by the time it gets up to his level, he’s got a thousand employees or something.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: That’s the thing. Yeah, [01:33:10] it’s it’s heartbreaking. Yeah. And I guess you just that’s being a [01:33:15] leader. You have to do things.

Payman Langroudi: You know, you sort of like the different businesses, right? You’re the culture [01:33:20] of your business. Could be this family thing. Mhm. And that’s not very useful [01:33:25] when it comes to firing.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: People.

Payman Langroudi: Because, you know, you can’t fire people in your family. Um, [01:33:30] but you know, these are all business in the end is just solving problems like [01:33:35] this. Yeah.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: It’s all about learning.

Payman Langroudi: About clinical errors.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Clinical errors. [01:33:40] Um, so yeah, I’ve been quite lucky. I’ve not done a [01:33:45] lot of clinical errors. Um, I the.

Payman Langroudi: Most difficult patient.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. [01:33:50] I had a patient that actually, that’s a really good question because I did have a patient that, [01:33:55] um, was quite crazy. I’m not sure if they had a little bit of [01:34:00] like, uh, Alzheimer’s or something. Um, I had a patient [01:34:05] like, um, basically do really bizarre things. [01:34:10] And he was, he agreed to a treatment plan. We prepped [01:34:15] two of his teeth. He had like very worn down like laterals. And [01:34:20] we, um, we had in order to save them, we had to crown them. So we prepped them. [01:34:25] He came into the fit appointment and said he doesn’t want the crowns anymore. And [01:34:30] we were like, we’ve done like a full consent on you. You know, this was actually before Medicube [01:34:35] as well. So we were like, we’ve done a full consent and we’ve spent quite a bit of time on that. And um. [01:34:40]

Payman Langroudi: The funny time to get buyer’s remorse.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Was like, we prepped your teeth, like under those temps, [01:34:45] you’ve not really, you’ve got stumps, you know that. And, uh, and then anyway, he left. [01:34:50] Um, and then he stood outside of our, um, surgery and he was [01:34:55] listening while me and my nurse were sort of trying to understand what happened.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:35:00] juicy.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. He was like listening and so and so.

Payman Langroudi: Listening, like his ear to the door. Yeah. [01:35:05]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, yeah. So me, me and my nurse were sort of like.

Payman Langroudi: You were bitching about him. [01:35:10]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Well, no, but I mean, we were confused. We were we were stressed out by the situation. And I [01:35:15] was sort of saying to her, did I was it something I said, do you think, do you think I wasn’t very [01:35:20] clear? And she was saying, well, no, he knew exactly what he was doing. You don’t go to Sainsbury’s [01:35:25] and at the checkout like go. Oh, like I’m gonna. [01:35:30] Like you don’t take the food home basically and go, oh I don’t want to pay for it. So um, anyway, he heard that [01:35:35] and then, uh, called the practice and like started being really weird with us. And [01:35:40] it was just really bizarre. We didn’t know what was going on. That was one of the hardest.

Payman Langroudi: Resolve or [01:35:45] didn’t resolve.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Did you what did he do? Did he go on with the with the temporaries? [01:35:50]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: No. Like I just I fit them in the end for free. No, [01:35:55] no, he he paid, we gave him money back. We did give him some money [01:36:00] back.

Payman Langroudi: Is it for no reason at all.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: But for him it was. I was a bit like. Does he have something [01:36:05] psychological? Like I wasn’t sure I was like Alzheimer’s or.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever it could [01:36:10] have been.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Or bipolar. We really weren’t sure. I still haven’t resolved that one, but [01:36:15] that was the one time I was I was really caught out with the patient. I was like, there is something quite [01:36:20] unusual about his personality that.

Payman Langroudi: What about what about what about. I’m not looking [01:36:25] for a terrible story. Yeah, I am, really. But but but what about, you know, you [01:36:30] do full mouth rehabs? Yeah. What about the stuff you’ve done that you’ve [01:36:35] learned from? You know, like we learn from our mistakes a lot of the times. So, [01:36:40] you know, what? Were you doing something a certain way. Realised that wasn’t the best way of doing it. Now [01:36:45] you do it a different way or you know what are gems around? Full mouth rehab, man. It’s a big [01:36:50] thing.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, it’s a big thing. But I think if you.

Payman Langroudi: What have you, what have you broken it down into? Like, what’s [01:36:55] the crux of it? If I’ve never done one occlusion, I’ve done.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Essential. Everyone talks about occlusion, [01:37:00] don’t they? But like the key thing is like, I hear a lot of dentists say like, oh, get, get [01:37:05] like, um, their back teeth, like their bite through [01:37:10] their back teeth. And I’m like, what are you talking about? Like the, the key thing is you always [01:37:15] need solid anterior guidance. Like that is like number one thing in occlusion, like you [01:37:20] need solid anterior guidance and you need. You know, if you can get good solid [01:37:25] anterior support, that’s like the beginning of a full mouth rehab. And [01:37:30] then you go on to your posterior contacts because if you work the other way around, [01:37:35] that patient is going to feel very uncomfortable. Their bite is going to feel really uncomfortable. So [01:37:40] that’s like my big take home message for like, if I’m talking [01:37:45] to like, you know, other, um, dentists earlier on in their career in [01:37:50] my practice.

Payman Langroudi: But is it, is it that that’s an awesome thing? And there’s another way of doing it that starts at the back. [01:37:55]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I mean, I think all the institutions basically say, even Chris all [01:38:00] said, like, you know, when you think of occlusion, you think of your jaw joint and you think of an anterior stop. Basically, [01:38:05] that is like the solid it seems.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Basis of occlusion. Yeah. [01:38:10] Everything else. Okay. Canine guidance. You know, they talk. I [01:38:15] think Frank Speer talks about modified canine guidance, which is where you guide on your premolars anterior [01:38:20] guidance. I think I’ve heard anterior guidance might be a myth from [01:38:25] one of them, I can’t remember. Anterior guidance or canine guidance. There’s like this this like, oh, maybe it’s [01:38:30] a myth, I don’t know. But that’s kind of going really deep into the topic. But I think the basis [01:38:35] of it is, yeah, um, you know, your TMJ and an anterior [01:38:40] stop, that’s like the key thing and you really can’t go wrong from there. Like if you get that right. And then [01:38:45] also, you know, there are, it does get more complicated when you’re, um, going [01:38:50] into like centric relation and stuff like that. If you’re doing like a reorganised approach. [01:38:55]

Payman Langroudi: Did you have a moment like were you doing a reorganised approach and couldn’t get [01:39:00] it right?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Um, I think, um. No, [01:39:05] I.

Payman Langroudi: Haven’t done a reorganised case.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: No, no, I have done them. So basically you just, [01:39:10] you need like a leaf gauge. I mean, the most annoying thing is when your nurse loses your leaf gauge and you’re like, oh, for God’s [01:39:15] sakes, like, I need this. And I have had to have situations where I’ve had to get them [01:39:20] to bite on like, um, no, I’ve had to like, I’ve had [01:39:25] to like do a workaround basically where I’ve got like I had, and this was really, really like annoying [01:39:30] because we couldn’t find it anywhere, but I had to get them to buy on, um, some [01:39:35] gauze and grind forward and back, forward and back and squeeze because we didn’t have a Lucia [01:39:40] jig as well. And sometimes you’re just in situations like that where you have to like make things work and [01:39:45] then, you know, you get the bike ride and you, you know, do that. So there’s ways around it. Like I wouldn’t, [01:39:50] I wouldn’t want to publicise that, but that’s like situations where you’re like, ah, what am [01:39:55] I going to do? Like the patient’s here. We, you know, are we going to really like rebook them our diaries [01:40:00] full? Um, so you do find workarounds sometimes, but.

Payman Langroudi: Comes to mind if I say, what’s the best [01:40:05] dental education you’ve had like lecture wise or course wise?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, I would say [01:40:10] definitely Crispr is amazing. And, um, the Dawson [01:40:15] Academy, I’d say both of them. I’d say they are incredible. And I would say like, there’s a lot [01:40:20] of, um, for me, I think if you get functional, if you get functionality correct, [01:40:25] the cosmetic side comes with it.

Payman Langroudi: So the link between those two [01:40:30] is quite interesting, isn’t it? Because we sort of see them as separate things we do.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a bit like mind body like. [01:40:35] Yeah, they’re not separate things.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. And I think because they say that your, your um upper [01:40:40] central incisors, like the position of them is the most important in the whole mouth. [01:40:45] If you get that right, then things just fall into place. But I think, you [01:40:50] know, occlusion is taught in a way that it’s so complicated. It sounds like a bit of wizardry or something, [01:40:55] but it’s really not that complicated. You just want, you know, there’s like five pillars [01:41:00] of occlusion. I think that Dawson teaches and you just so I would say reading his book, um, [01:41:05] now I’m not somebody that like reads and highlights every chapter, [01:41:10] but I get, I get the gist and I’m like, yep, I know what I’m doing. Um, but yeah, [01:41:15] I would say, I would recommend that to dentists trying to get good with occlusion. That’s like.

Payman Langroudi: Dawson.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Dawson’s [01:41:20] book is amazing.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s your.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Book? Yeah. And Dawson lectures. Um, [01:41:25] I think they’re worth their weight in gold for teaching you. And, like, not just. It’s not just for full mouth rehabs, [01:41:30] though. If you’re doing like a single crown, you need to understand how to check the occlusion [01:41:35] properly on. Yeah. You know, protrusive movements, lateral [01:41:40] excursions, you need to understand what you’re looking for. And he’ll just like lay it down in a way that’s really [01:41:45] simple.

Payman Langroudi: One of the very obvious, very simple things that people don’t do. [01:41:50] And it’s when you when you figure it out, it seems so obvious, right? It’s look at the occlusion before [01:41:55] you start drilling.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, yeah. That’s true.

Payman Langroudi: So damn obvious.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Hindsight is a beautiful thing. Yeah. [01:42:00]

Payman Langroudi: Even for filling. Yeah. Like look at where’s the occlusion on this this. Yeah. That’s true. We [01:42:05] all do it at the end.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. You’re like, oh, should I check this at the start? I know I [01:42:10] used to actually check it at the start, but I’m way less way less uptight with my dentistry now. [01:42:15] I’m a lot more relaxed. And yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How about none? Dental. So you [01:42:20] said you went to all these conferences where was like an aha moment in those tech [01:42:25] in the tech space?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Oh, in the tech space. Oh, what do you mean? Like an [01:42:30] aha moment where I was like, oh, I know where I’m going.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, like, for instance, you know how to conduct [01:42:35] a sprint. Yeah. Well, I don’t know if I talk to you. Four years ago, you wouldn’t know what a sprint is.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Oh, [01:42:40] no. But that’s all boring stuff. That’s all.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, so what was it?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: What was it? Learning online and stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what [01:42:45] what is it in the moment in the entrepreneurship tech, particularly [01:42:50] tech entrepreneurship. I mean, the SaaS space, right? You’ve got yourself into like a space that’s quite [01:42:55] competitive.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, 100%. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, there are competitors out there too. Your product. [01:43:00]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Who does dentistry? Does one.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. There’s loads.

Payman Langroudi: Are there loads? [01:43:05]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, yeah. There’s not like a handful. There would be. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:43:10] anyway, in in that area of tech entrepreneurship, where [01:43:15] did you learn something? What was an aha light bulb moment for you?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I honestly just think every [01:43:20] time I go to a tech conference, I’m like, this is insane. Like, I went to the AWS conference [01:43:25] about a year ago and it was incredible. And I was like talking. It’s so funny.

Payman Langroudi: Web [01:43:30] services.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, yeah. And what was so funny is like, you talk to dentists and they’re really impressed [01:43:35] with all these services. And then you go to these tech conferences and you see like how [01:43:40] much of them there are like the market you [01:43:45] follow? Mm.

Payman Langroudi: Do you follow?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: What do you mean, do I follow?

Payman Langroudi: When you go to an AWS talk, [01:43:50] do you understand what the hell’s going on? Do you understand what they’re saying?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, dude, [01:43:55] I do, but I’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Been hard to follow that sort of thing.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Tech conferences for, like, six years. I mean, [01:44:00] I’m not a developer, so there would be, you know, there would be a.

Payman Langroudi: Massive.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Gap. Yeah. [01:44:05] And I sort of say to my co-founder, what does this mean? You know? Or I’ll go on ChatGPT and just research [01:44:10] it and come back to him with all this spiel. And he’s like, what, ChatGPT? [01:44:15]

Payman Langroudi: One of my buddies from school, he’s a mycologist. Yeah, a fungus expert, right? [01:44:20] And he’s global, globally famous guy. And he just became a professor [01:44:25] and he said, oh, come along, come along to my. They have a professorial lecture. [01:44:30] They give. And I said, sure, of course I came. And you know, I went through [01:44:35] dentistry. I thought a little bit, one slide in, I didn’t, I couldn’t follow anymore.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: One slide. Yeah. [01:44:40] But that’s fungus. That’s fungus. It’s a bit different.

Payman Langroudi: It was a 45 minute lecture [01:44:45] about his research. Yeah. After one slide that was lost.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: But I do think because we use tech [01:44:50] products that actually you’ll be surprised how much you will understand.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:44:55] plus you, you’re filtering for that, right? You’re like, yeah, in a way, your algorithm is now sending [01:45:00] you tech stuff and you know, you’re chasing, you end up seeing what you’re after in a way.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. I [01:45:05] mean, when I go to tech conferences, I know exactly like what I’m looking for, like whether I’m looking for [01:45:10] specific partners, whether I’m looking for like what innovations happened? Um, yeah, [01:45:15] so, but I would, I would say, like, honestly, being a founder is so [01:45:20] hard. I don’t think you have aha moments. I think every day is like, God, [01:45:25] there’s so much like, like I had a call just before I came here with, [01:45:30] uh, one of my mentors and I was like, so confident we knew exactly what we were [01:45:35] going to do. And he just like threw everything, threw a spanner in the works. Basically. [01:45:40] He was like, why don’t you do this, this, this, this, this, this is what you should do this. And then like, you’re [01:45:45] going back to the drawing board and going with your team and then trying to manage everything. You know, you’re trying to manage like [01:45:50] your users, like your accounts and then your roadmap, and then you’ve got [01:45:55] your mentors saying crazy things all the time and you’re just trying to make sense of it. So [01:46:00] it’s, I get less of those aha moments because I don’t think your brain has the freedom to just be [01:46:05] like. You know, free. Um, it’s [01:46:10] just so intense. You’re just constantly, um, but it’s fun. It’s why [01:46:15] I do it. Like, I love the challenge. I don’t think I could live not doing it. Like [01:46:20] now I find dentistry so unstressful. It’s so funny how like I’ve recalibrated. [01:46:25] Yeah. As my break. Yeah, yeah. I’m like, this is like a chilled [01:46:30] out day, like the.

Payman Langroudi: Number of mothers I come across. So they say dentistry is their me time.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: That [01:46:35] is the craziest thing.

Payman Langroudi: I hear that a lot.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I hear that from [01:46:40] patients when they lie back and they’re like, oh, this is so relaxing. And I’m like, oh, [01:46:45] you have a child.

Payman Langroudi: Saying it was the most relaxed part of her day was [01:46:50] seeing a patient.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: That’s hilarious.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been it’s [01:46:55] been a massive pleasure, man.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Oh, thank you Payman. I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:47:00] I’m gonna leave you with the final question.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: Fantasy [01:47:05] dinner party.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Oh, yes.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I’ve [01:47:10] got. I’ve got a really funny one, but I would have to have this guest. Um, [01:47:15] Stephen Hawking, I absolutely love Stephen Hawking. He actually inspired [01:47:20] me so much as a child. Um, so Stephen Hawking [01:47:25] definitely.

Payman Langroudi: Was the first superstar scientist, wasn’t he? It’s interesting.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, but do you know what? Do you know [01:47:30] why I love him so much? Actually, there’s the key reason I love him so much is [01:47:35] because if you saw Stephen Hawking in a nursing home without his equipment, you [01:47:40] would think that, you know, he was incapable and there [01:47:45] was nothing. You know, you wouldn’t think that he was having all these thoughts. Um, he I [01:47:50] mean, I don’t think there’s been a single person in history that has made such a movement like [01:47:55] he did without even being able to really so much as lift a finger. I [01:48:00] just find him like one. He’s he’s literally 1 in 1,000,000,000 or 1 in [01:48:05] 1,000,000,000,000.

Payman Langroudi: He’s wrote beautifully. You know what I found with I, I knew who Stephen Hawkins [01:48:10] was. Yeah. But I wasn’t following particularly. Um, then I got, I got my [01:48:15] phone broke and had to take it to the Apple shop. Um, they said, yeah, we’ll need it for 2.5 [01:48:20] hours. I was in Cardiff. I wasn’t even at home. So I’m like sitting around without [01:48:25] my phone, like completely addicted to my phone. Right?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, now I didn’t have satnav. [01:48:30] I didn’t know where to go. I couldn’t get an Uber. I couldn’t get a line bike. [01:48:35] I couldn’t do anything. It’s totally debilitating. Yeah. So what should I do? I saw a bookshop. I [01:48:40] went to look and it was a second hand books. And the one out of all the ones that were there [01:48:45] was his.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Which one did you pick? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I had three hours [01:48:50] to just sit and read, which I hadn’t done in such a long time. But he wrote so beautifully. [01:48:55]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Oh he’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: It wasn’t just scientific. It was really like.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like experiential. [01:49:00] Almost like.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: It. Yeah. See, I think he’s he’s a very intuitive thinker. Yeah. And, [01:49:05] um, it’s just so interesting because I think, yeah, I think the way [01:49:10] he thinks is more intuitive than scientific actually. And I think a lot of breakthroughs [01:49:15] are made that way. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, because people think differently in that situation.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Not even [01:49:20] differently. I think sometimes, again, it’s like a reflection of like another concept you’ve seen [01:49:25] and you’re likening it. So there’s a, there’s a thing, I don’t know if you’ve heard of this, but there’s like [01:49:30] in a philosophy, like there’s the saying like as above, [01:49:35] so below. And that is meant to be like how, um, in astronomy, [01:49:40] um, the stars, how they kind of move sometimes that reflects things [01:49:45] that are happening down here and that’s used in like hermetic, hermetic philosophy. [01:49:50] So a lot of the times in philosophy, a lot of those movements [01:49:55] were affected by the observations they were doing in the universe [01:50:00] at the time. So Aristotle and Socrates were all like around at a similar time where they were making [01:50:05] massive breakthroughs about the universe, like the known universe. So yeah, so [01:50:10] I think that’s why I love physics so much. I think there’s so much to learn, even.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the best science. [01:50:15] It is.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Oh, it is, it’s not. I feel like it’s not even a science. It’s, it’s bigger than a science. It’s like [01:50:20] a science and an art mixed together. It’s amazing. But yeah. So Stephen Hawking’s second guess. Um, [01:50:25] I think David Attenborough, he always really inspired me as a child too. Um, and [01:50:30] I really struggled with the third guest. The third [01:50:35] guest, I just, um, I really struggled, but I think for [01:50:40] the sake of this podcast, I’m going to.

Payman Langroudi: Say you struggled. You couldn’t think of anyone.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: No, I could think of someone [01:50:45] and I couldn’t. So like.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, your grandma. How about that? No, as simple as that.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. [01:50:50] She was she was an absolute boss, that woman. Yeah. Um, but yeah, like probably [01:50:55] a family member that we’ve lost, like that would be my natural intuition to [01:51:00] like pick that person. But for the sake of this podcast, I’m going to say, um, Andrew [01:51:05] Carnegie because I would love to know more [01:51:10] about what he did 100 years ago with the steel business and all of that.

Payman Langroudi: I like [01:51:15] that. I like Andrew Carnegie. Before, actually, I’ve never had any of those before. Yeah. [01:51:20] Amazing.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Weird bunch.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve really enjoyed it, man. Thank you. I really enjoyed it. [01:51:25] I’m really super impressed with what you’re doing. Oh, by the way, it’s a product available to buy now or no it is. So [01:51:30] how much is it?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yes. So for associates, it’s £43.50 a month. [01:51:35] For dental practices, it’s £180 a month. So that.

Payman Langroudi: Covers. Can you put in [01:51:40] there.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: That actually is unlimited at the moment. We’ve kept it. Yeah, very very simple. And if you go on to Medicube [01:51:45] site, just register your interest and just drop your email and [01:51:50] we’ll contact you and we’ll sign you up.

Payman Langroudi: Seems fair to £43 [01:51:55] a month. Later. The first treatment plan. Oh my.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: God. What I didn’t mention, which I really wanted to mention, [01:52:00] is how much my income has like doubled since using Medicube.

Payman Langroudi: Just [01:52:05] because it sells things easier.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Easy. Like I don’t have to book endless reviews, you know? You get a lot of patients [01:52:10] that are just so like they want the treatment. They know, like their veneers.

Payman Langroudi: What is it about [01:52:15] it that does that? Is it like pleasant? Honestly.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: You’ll have to ask our patients. But, [01:52:20] um, but I think for patients, they just want that moment of like, okay, first, [01:52:25] firstly, having a personalised information pack about you is really like nice. [01:52:30] And I think they enjoy that moment of having, of reading about themselves. And [01:52:35] in addition to that, I think it gives them a time to research [01:52:40] at home rather than otherwise they’ll be going on Instagram and maybe looking up like, oh, [01:52:45] what is like, what are veneers? What are, what is a root canal or whatever? And you can’t control what content [01:52:50] they’re looking at. So there’s that huge explosion of like misinformation Online, and [01:52:55] you’re kind of controlling that by sending them a personalised info pack. They are getting. [01:53:00] Yeah, the content that you’ve verified essentially, and you know the specific [01:53:05] information that is relevant to them. So it’s really nice for them because they don’t have to [01:53:10] go and search for that information somewhere else. You’d be surprised how patients feel really misinformed [01:53:15] generally.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing man. I keep thinking back to [01:53:20] when I was three years in to this business. I was nowhere near as organised [01:53:25] as as, as, as relaxed as you are. I didn’t [01:53:30] have those, uh, grant payments that we were just constantly, constantly [01:53:35] underwater.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Must have been very hard for you to be fair to have Dental partners. And it’s like [01:53:40] having investors, though, isn’t it? Yeah. Like we’re lucky we’ve not got investors, but as soon as we have [01:53:45] investors, it’s going to be intense. Like I know it will be, but we’re ready for that. I think [01:53:50] we’re we’ve actually spent too long in this phase. I think we’re ready to to move on. And we’ve [01:53:55] got a really like.

Payman Langroudi: But you know, you’ve done very well, man. You’ve got you’ve got the products ready and you know where [01:54:00] you are. You know who you are. You know what you want to achieve. It’s a beautiful thing. So thank you. Thanks [01:54:05] so much for coming.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Thanks so much for having me. I’ve really enjoyed being here.

[VOICE]: This [01:54:10] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one [01:54:15] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:54:20] hosts Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:54:25] for listening guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just [01:54:30] a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say [01:54:35] and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you [01:54:40] did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this [01:54:45] with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. [01:54:50]

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.