Month: June 2026

Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] enlightened Online training.com to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time. Whitening Underwhelms try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where [00:00:30] you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and [00:00:40] Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Sheena [00:00:45] Gillan onto the podcast. Sheena has just finished [00:00:50] DC Dental Corps Training two and is in practice. [00:00:55] Yeah. Yeah. So first time I met you, you were a T plus one. F [00:01:00] t plus one.

Sina Gilannejad: Just finished.

Payman Langroudi: So did you go f t straight into DCT or did you have a stint [00:01:05] in practice?

Sina Gilannejad: I went, I went f d straight into DCT straight in DCT. Yeah. I um [00:01:10] I finished f d and I just had like [00:01:15] a crippling anxiety for extractions was the main thing. So if I had [00:01:20] an extraction the day after or the day before, I wasn’t sleeping, stress stressed the whole time and [00:01:25] I’d always end up like snapping at the roots of everything. Like just it haunted [00:01:30] me. And it sucked because in dental school, I was really good. So I was like, that’s [00:01:35] to summarise it. But I was like, I cannot live my life like this. [00:01:40] So I, I did DD1I went to to where you studied. Yeah. [00:01:45]

Payman Langroudi: When was that for DC1 and two.

Sina Gilannejad: Uh, no, that was just for DCD1. Oh yeah. So finished PhD in [00:01:50] Manchester. Uh, did DC.

Payman Langroudi: Studied in Sheffield.

Sina Gilannejad: No. Studied in Bristol. Bristol. [00:01:55] Yeah. Oh I knew the Sheffield lot like Adam. Well Adams. He was Leaders. I just knew through mutual [00:02:00] friends.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. And, um. And yeah, [00:02:05] I just, you know what? Moving. So for those of you that don’t know, [00:02:10] um, moved from Northern Ireland is where I was born. My parents are Iranian, so [00:02:15] I’m all over the place. Grew up in Northern Ireland, had an amazing time, amazing childhood. And then we’re. [00:02:20]

Payman Langroudi: About.

Sina Gilannejad: Uh, in Lisbon, ten minutes from Belfast.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah. I’ve been there. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: You’ve been to [00:02:25] Lisbon?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s kind of southwest.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah it is. Why would you do the Lisbon practice? [00:02:30]

Payman Langroudi: The what?

Sina Gilannejad: No way. Yeah. Lots of old people there. Yeah. It was [00:02:35] lovely place. Like back in Northern Ireland. I was like the most at that time, the most diverse thing [00:02:40] that there actually was. But like, I wasn’t really diverse because I was still white. So it was very easy for people to digest, [00:02:45] you know? So I had a lovely time growing up, played lots of rugby. It was my big thing. [00:02:50]

Payman Langroudi: Good people.

Sina Gilannejad: Good people, man. Yeah, really nice people. The kind of place where you go walk your [00:02:55] dog and you’ll be in half an hour conversations for a while. You just have to talk. It’s expected. [00:03:00] Yeah. And, um, and then I got to, I finished my A level and I was always [00:03:05] a home bird. I was always going to just stay where I was. Um, and [00:03:10] then I finished my A levels and I kind of just looked around and it’s such a small place. So you just see [00:03:15] everyone everywhere. And I just looked around and I was like, you know what? Not too many of you are actually [00:03:20] like good friends. Like you’ve done some sly stuff, things like that. I [00:03:25] think, I think I might just spread my wings a bit. So I just applied anywhere and everywhere [00:03:30] in the UK and Bristol took me, um, they gave me an interview, went, did an interview, [00:03:35] passed and then I just had to get the grades, slipped up the grades. I got two days in a B because I took physics, [00:03:40] which I loved. I loved physics, that’s why I did it. But it was hard. And then, uh, took a year out, worked [00:03:45] at my dad’s pizza shop that whole year, which was one of the most transformational [00:03:50] things of my life, like, especially in terms of communication [00:03:55] and dealing with the public. It. It’s taught me everything I know [00:04:00] about how to deal with patient interactions. And I find, you [00:04:05] know, and I think that’s probably like one of my main strong suits, if not only is [00:04:10] how I speak and treat people and, um, and I think it’s just because, [00:04:15] you know, you can, you can mess up someone’s tooth, but if you mess up their food, it’s game over.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:04:20] was that the first time you’d worked in your dad’s place?

Sina Gilannejad: I, I was in and out like a while, but was the first time [00:04:25] I properly like every every weekday, some weekends and stuff was working there and he did [00:04:30] gruelling shifts man. You know, he’s, he’s the he’s the the working class. He [00:04:35] came he moved over from Iran 40 years ago just before the revolution. And [00:04:40] and he just got to work. He was working in London first, um, did black cabs. So he like remembered all [00:04:45] the streets and everything. And then he was in KFC for a bit, became manager there and then I [00:04:50] think he moved to um Northern Ireland for cheaper education at Queen’s. He [00:04:55] did textiles or something and then he opened his his pizza shop and it was just his baby, [00:05:00] you know. And and it’s still to this day, um running. I think it’s just had its [00:05:05] 30th, if not more. It’s not even 30. I think it might be like coming up to 40th anniversary [00:05:10] as well. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is it one of those late night places you get.

Sina Gilannejad: No, not even it used to be. So when I was working there, unfortunately, [00:05:15] it was like from 4 to 1 a.m. it was hell. And working [00:05:20] that long is hard enough. But working with a family member, especially when you’re like an angsty teen like I was, [00:05:25] oh my goodness, it’s a wonder we’re still in touch.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what my dad, my dad studied in Queens [00:05:30] as well. No way. In Belfast in the 50s. In the 50s, economics?

Sina Gilannejad: No [00:05:35] way.

Payman Langroudi: And I’ve got loads of friends who are half Iranian, half Irish. [00:05:40] Yeah, because of all his pals. Yeah.

Speaker 4: There’s a, there was a like.

Sina Gilannejad: You knew everyone [00:05:45] in that time. You knew everybody. That was because the Iranian community was really so small at the time. [00:05:50] Yeah. Um, you y’all just saw each other everywhere and.

Payman Langroudi: Become a really good town now as well.

Sina Gilannejad: Belfast is [00:05:55] good. You know what’s even better? I don’t know if you’ve been to Bangor. Bangor. It was a small seaside [00:06:00] town and that they’ve innovated it so much that they’ve give it a city status as well. So [00:06:05] yeah, so it’s nice. It’s just a really simple place to go. And, [00:06:10] and that’s nice. Especially like if you’ve like, you know, been in mainland, we call here in mainland, [00:06:15] um, or London for so long. It’s a nice place to just, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But good restaurants and [00:06:20] things now food.

Sina Gilannejad: Is good. Yeah. Seafood obviously is amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Nice to see.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s, it’s, [00:06:25] it’s, I always say it’s, this is in the past. It used to be always at least like ten, [00:06:30] 15 years behind everywhere else, like, um, with legislation like [00:06:35] gay marriage, he got legalised here and then like ten years after it took at least for [00:06:40] Northern Ireland to do it. So it was always lagging behind. But now I think it’s [00:06:45] improved itself so much that the younger Your generation, who [00:06:50] the young professionals would stop moving out so much and actually stay in the city. And, [00:06:55] and it’s booming, you know, like we actually finally have fried chicken there now. Yeah, it took a while.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve [00:07:00] had some good food there. And also we did the event. We did our composite course there quite a lot. [00:07:05]

Sina Gilannejad: Nice.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know, man. Like it’s one of those places where good news travels fast and bad news probably as well.

Speaker 4: Yeah, [00:07:10] yeah yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: So we had a lot of word of mouth. And so we did it there 4 or 5 times massively. [00:07:15]

Sina Gilannejad: And like, you know, you’re talking about the education side of things, especially my last two years in hospital, [00:07:20] I spent, you know, I got I was so fortunate to work with hundreds of consultants and so [00:07:25] many of them did a residency in Northern Ireland. Really? Because the troubles back then, you had so much trauma [00:07:30] to. Yeah, you had so much experience. And funnily enough, the sort of tail [00:07:35] end of that was, you know, whenever I was deciding, am I going to do dentistry and medicine because I liked I like the sciences. [00:07:40] I like talking to people. So it was, it was always going to, and I didn’t want to sit behind a desk the whole time. So it was always [00:07:45] going to be between dentistry and medicine. And I did a work experience at the hospital for [00:07:50] medicine and it put me off. But I saw first of all, like at that time, [00:07:55] because I didn’t have the skills to help anyone, I felt very hopeless and, you [00:08:00] know, melancholy and sad at the hospital, it was just grim. And then I was in A and E and like, [00:08:05] some poor guy got kneecapped as they did back in the day. There he was just crawling across the floor. I was like, yeah, no, [00:08:10] I think I think dance should be better. Yeah. Um, but it’s crazy that, you [00:08:15] know, in the career that I’ve had so far, I actually kind of went full circle and [00:08:20] ended up doing a lot of work in hospital. So nice place to come from, man. But yeah, [00:08:25] I got, I got bored and I saw everyone. I was like, ah, let’s, let’s meet some new faces. And then Bristol accepted [00:08:30] me.

Payman Langroudi: What a great town. Bristol is amazing. I love that town.

Sina Gilannejad: Fantastic. I, [00:08:35] I had the best five years. Full [00:08:40] stop.

Payman Langroudi: Full stop.

Sina Gilannejad: Full stop. That’s it, that’s it. Put on the t shirt. It was. The people were [00:08:45] so lovely. It was a perfect mix because, you know, I was like, I’ve been to most student cities now. [00:08:50] Like Liverpool was way too studenty for me and still lovely, great fun as [00:08:55] well. But Bristol had a lovely mix of student family life. So much to do, so unique [00:09:00] in itself.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful.

Sina Gilannejad: Beautiful. Yeah. Unfortunately now it’s just so expensive. [00:09:05] Um, but back then it was just about affordable and the Dental school was [00:09:10] amazing.

Payman Langroudi: It knew right?

Sina Gilannejad: Not. So I was fortunate when I was Dental [00:09:15] president there, I was actually on the board who we designed the new hospital. So [00:09:20] unfortunately when we built it and opened it, I got to see around it. But by that time I was graduated. [00:09:25] So so I didn’t get to study in it. But I know the facilities it they’re insane. [00:09:30]

Payman Langroudi: So you were the president?

Sina Gilannejad: I was the president. It would have been just after Covid. Okay. [00:09:35] 21 and, um, that was another really, really good year of my life. [00:09:40] And it was if I hadn’t done that, I would have never met my wife as well. So it’s really good.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re that [00:09:45] cat, the one who says, I want to be the president?

Sina Gilannejad: Um, I [00:09:50] kind of like it.

Payman Langroudi: I wish I was there.

Sina Gilannejad: I think, I think I [00:09:55] think early on it was always that kind of thing. And I was so close [00:10:00] to not doing it in the end. So early on, I did always want to be the Dental president because [00:10:05] I obviously, like you’re younger, you see, like the prestige that comes with it and everything. But it’s like the, the idea [00:10:10] that you can actually make some not to be cringey, but to make some real change. Yeah. And [00:10:15] like I said, like everybody wants to feel unique in a, in a certain way. And, [00:10:20] and I, from that experience I had with working at my dad’s, I really did feel [00:10:25] and was told that my, my unique selling point was just being able to [00:10:30] talk to people as a human, like getting, getting that patient interaction perfect, [00:10:35] like dealing with an angry, patient, sad, patient, happy, patient, um, you know, anxious patient. [00:10:40] That was my selling point. And, and that came through to to my interactions [00:10:45] with my friends as well. When I was younger, I was always called like the agony [00:10:50] uncle, like the person everyone would come to, and I was seeking it. I was seeking to help people’s problems and looking [00:10:55] back over it and doing like a lot of like, you know, reminiscing and analysing. It was definitely [00:11:00] from a place of trying to busy myself with so many other people’s problem that I wouldn’t deal [00:11:05] with my own. Interesting. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What? How interesting.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. Yeah. It [00:11:10] took me a while to figure that out. And then once I figured that out, I tried to stop doing that as much. But [00:11:15] from from a place like that was was why I wanted to do presidency. And I was so close to not doing it [00:11:20] before the pandemic. I just felt like, you know what? There’s so many lovely [00:11:25] people around me that would be so much better. They’re way more organised than me. They’re way more proactive and [00:11:30] stuff academic. They would do better. So I wasn’t going to put my name for it. And [00:11:35] then the pandemic hit. So I was in fourth year. No, I was in third year. Fourth year [00:11:40] is whenever in Bristol you can apply for presidency. And [00:11:45] I said when the pandemic hit, a lot of people pulled out [00:11:50] because it was obviously such a tough time and we all realised what was important and and [00:11:55] just wanted to sort of get back in and get back to normality and didn’t want that extra weight on. [00:12:00] And at that point, I was kind of like, everyone’s losing their minds, everyone’s freaking out. I [00:12:05] feel like maybe this is something I can get involved in now. Like I felt like in [00:12:10] an emergency situation in my head, I wasn’t so worried about messing up anymore because [00:12:15] I was like, anything is better than this.

Sina Gilannejad: You just need to calm people down almost. And so I did it and [00:12:20] I had such a great year. We did so much. Um, you [00:12:25] know, just the, the new Dental school alone took up so much of my time. And, and if [00:12:30] that was all I did, it was great. But we did so much at that time, like it was during like BLM, we did [00:12:35] decolonise the curriculum per se. And um, what They colonise [00:12:40] the curriculum. I can’t even say curriculum. Yeah. So it was in [00:12:45] essence exactly what it says. So the a lot of the oh, well, oh, a good example [00:12:50] is it’s much it was actually when we did, we looked into our research, we found [00:12:55] out that the problem was more with the medics than the dentists. And it’s basically that a lot of [00:13:00] the research and evidence based practice that we have is on the typical white [00:13:05] 70 kg male and didn’t account for people of [00:13:10] different backgrounds, different skin colours and how conditions would look look like [00:13:15] as well. So a big part of decolonising the medical curriculum was a, I can’t remember the name of it, but a lovely [00:13:20] book, um, uh, that was released of skin conditions in people of [00:13:25] different skin Pigmentations.

Sina Gilannejad: Um, and that was in essence, you know, that inspired [00:13:30] us to do the same with dentistry. So one of the big ones was, um, that you always [00:13:35] hear floating around, but no evidence was really given Was teeth being harder to extract [00:13:40] in African Americans. And because of the density of the bone. Now I’ve [00:13:45] still been looking around. There’s no good studies that have been done anecdotally. I think a lot of us, especially me, having [00:13:50] spent so much time in oral surgery, anecdotally, a lot of us probably agree with that. But because there wasn’t [00:13:55] anecdotal, sorry, because there wasn’t an actual good evidence about that, we had [00:14:00] to sort of refine, like how we deliver that to patients [00:14:05] to, to students, to students. And then another big thing was oral medicine as well. Um, you’ve [00:14:10] got lichen planus. Um, you can get it obviously on skin as well. You’ve got other conditions, like blistering [00:14:15] conditions that can also get it on skin as well. We had to, we went through all [00:14:20] of our oral medical stuff and actually thankfully, um, and really reassuringly, we were actually [00:14:25] quite good. We, we were on board, we did show them in different populations [00:14:30] and different cultures and different.

Payman Langroudi: But that sounds like there’s a, there’s a sort of political, ideological. [00:14:35] Yeah. But sort of angle on it. So explain it.

Sina Gilannejad: 100%. Explain what [00:14:40] the decolonisation part.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: So it’s again, it’s just making sure it was making sure that the curriculum [00:14:45] wasn’t just based around the white male that we trained our students to [00:14:50] a point where they, because.

Payman Langroudi: Because our patients are diverse, are so diverse.

Sina Gilannejad: And in London, it’s a [00:14:55] really easy way to see that, isn’t it? Yeah. You live, you work in one borough, you’ll have a completely different [00:15:00] demographic. You know, you live in one borough. You’re treating, um, mainly Caribbean [00:15:05] patients. You’re living one. It’s it’s all, um, Bengali patients. [00:15:10] You have one Sudanese, you’re the ones all white. So, um, it was to gear [00:15:15] them up for that.

Payman Langroudi: It could be, it could be seen as purely a, you know, Dental medical thing, right? That, you [00:15:20] know, we’re not we’re not covering this cohort of patients. But was there like a timing issue around BLM [00:15:25] that made this definitely become a thing?

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, this was the thing. It was very, uh, [00:15:30] a big part of what I was worried about is coming off performative. [00:15:35] And that was a massive thing I was worried about, especially with like, how.

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t want to virtue [00:15:40] signal. Yeah, exactly what you mean by performance.

Sina Gilannejad: I think we’re on the same page. You know, like [00:15:45] a lot of the companies and stuff were advertising [00:15:50] it, but not actually doing anything to action. Exactly. So like that.

Payman Langroudi: So like greenwashing.

Sina Gilannejad: Exactly. [00:15:55] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That’s what I was really worried about. But then at the same time, part [00:16:00] of the movement is educating yourself. Yeah. So that’s, that’s how we did. And, and, um, another big [00:16:05] thing was being in the community. So the equality, diversity and inclusion, um, which [00:16:10] turned out there was no one of much diversity in [00:16:15] that not and, and again, it’s finding out why was that the case? It’s just because no one knew about it [00:16:20] and no one actually. Then when they knew about it, no one bothered to join. So that was a really difficult part. It’s [00:16:25] like, it’s really hard for me to vouch for you from for your background. I [00:16:30] can get your opinions and stuff, but you know, sometimes you need someone that’s there to [00:16:35] actually vote for themselves as well. But that’s not easy and not everyone’s built for that. So it was a really interesting [00:16:40] time.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve ever been politically active, like outside of this little piece.

Sina Gilannejad: No. [00:16:45] And I’ll tell you why I was so scared of politics growing up in Northern Ireland. [00:16:50] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s on being an Iranian as well.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. Oh yeah. That’s a really. Yeah, absolutely. [00:16:55] Exactly. There was two like it was almost two kind of Canadian ways of thinking [00:17:00] about it. Like very much I didn’t want to upset anyone. I didn’t want to get anything wrong. So [00:17:05] I just dug my head in the sand. And, and that definitely wasn’t the right way to do it. [00:17:10] It’s just I, I was almost scared of having an opinion or [00:17:15] thought that me being so okay with everybody’s opinion was [00:17:20] my opinion. But I’ve changed a lot since then. I’ve tried, I’ve backlogging [00:17:25] always trying to educate myself a lot more and like the history of North [00:17:30] America.

Payman Langroudi: It was a funny time back then because we were. The number one issue that everyone was [00:17:35] worried about was not offending. Yeah. People.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And if you, you know, it’s really difficult [00:17:40] to to sort of talk. Mhm. And only [00:17:45] talk in a way that offends no one. Yeah. You end up only being quite [00:17:50] vanilla.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. And you can have such.

Payman Langroudi: A if that’s your primary concern. I mean, of course I don’t want [00:17:55] to offend anyone, but if it’s my primary concern and there was a level of fear involved in it, like a [00:18:00] fear of getting cancelled, fear of saying the wrong thing and all that.

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, cancel culture was huge.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:18:05] Huge. And, you know, whatever you want to say about Trump. And there’s a lot you can say about Trump. Yeah. The [00:18:10] fact that that pendulum got swung a little bit back. I mean, the trumpet song many, [00:18:15] many kilometres. But but but it had gone too far. It had gone too [00:18:20] far.

Sina Gilannejad: It went in a you almost and like you said, with [00:18:25] that idea of trying not to offend anyone, you do so much talking and end up not actually having said any points. And [00:18:30] that’s hard. And I think and I think unfortunately, that’s just the way society [00:18:35] had brought us up. And I think we should be and hopefully are coming to a place where we can [00:18:40] have our own beliefs and they can be strong beliefs. But we’ve lost so much of that [00:18:45] respect that’s in between. It’s it’s, it’s, it’s so hard to [00:18:50] have a communication. Like, let’s just break it down into left and right. You can’t talk to each other because [00:18:55] you just end up fighting against me or you, or you automatically assume that they’re wrong. Because I, [00:19:00] I’d like to think we could probably all agree that the right answer most of the time is quite [00:19:05] in the middle. But where we just swing on extremes the whole time.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:19:10] one thing I find quite interesting is, let’s say you’re you’re [00:19:15] naturally left wing. Mhm. I find it quite interesting listening to [00:19:20] right wing stuff. Mhm. If I’m a left winger.

Sina Gilannejad: In terms of. [00:19:25]

Payman Langroudi: Like the, the I listen to a lot of podcasts. In my case would be podcasts. And [00:19:30] it’s painful. It’s painful because it’s, you know, there’s your natural bias [00:19:35] is to listen to what you agree with. Yeah. But then that becomes a bit of an echo chamber. Yeah. [00:19:40] I’m very much interested in what the other side. If other side, if you like, inverted commas [00:19:45] are thinking and saying, yeah. And so but the weird thing about that is you [00:19:50] then do end up getting affected by that and actually moving towards that [00:19:55] direction a little bit more.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. Well, yeah, you start to see exactly.

Payman Langroudi: You see the other side of the argument. Right.

Sina Gilannejad: Exactly. [00:20:00] And you said, well, yeah, that actually that is a problem. I don’t have an answer from that, from [00:20:05] this extreme point of view here. So you’re right. It does drag you more into the middle. And that’s and that’s exactly what you need. You [00:20:10] need to be open. And you’ve just said it. The reason we don’t do it because it is really uncomfortable.

Payman Langroudi: It’s uncomfortable. I still get [00:20:15] I find it hard. It’s like a painful tooth. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s pushing it.

Sina Gilannejad: You [00:20:20] listen to a podcast like most of the time these days, we have it when we’re talking to a patient and [00:20:25] they obviously they all of a sudden say something, they get comfortable, then they say something and you’re like, I don’t agree [00:20:30] with that. But this is obviously not the place to get into a political argument with you or something like that, you know? And [00:20:35] that’s the thing, like even me, I’ve just straight away said a political argument. Yeah, I could have just had a discussion [00:20:40] and we’ve lost that a lot. And, and I to try [00:20:45] not to boil things down to one single causing factor. I do think [00:20:50] it’s probably in the political Leaders is the [00:20:55] political leaders benefit for that to be the case, to polarise people? [00:21:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. I had a friend, I tell you where I first lost my innocence around [00:21:05] politics. I mean, being an Iranian, you’re gonna you’re born with [00:21:10] that. But but I had a friend. He was, um, quite political. His dad had been [00:21:15] something in government and then he was quite political. He was at LSE. Um and he was very much [00:21:20] a right winger. Um and you know back then it was like Thatcher time Right. But [00:21:25] you didn’t. You weren’t young and right wing. This guy was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Today [00:21:30] it’s kind of changed. But back then, all young people were a bit left. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You got a mortgage and all [00:21:35] that? This guy was quite right wing, and he was standing for some president of, uh, [00:21:40] LSE Student Union or something.

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, wow. He’s. Oh, he’s probably into it. Like I.

Payman Langroudi: Said.

Sina Gilannejad: Not just opinions. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: He’s he [00:21:45] said to me, come, come. We’ve got some. What is it, hustings. Whatever it is. Yeah. He said come and just [00:21:50] support me, you know, just like clap when I say something. So sure man. You know childhood friend. [00:21:55] Yeah. A few of us went and um, they introduced him and [00:22:00] they said, yeah. And representing the Green Party, him and I was like, what? Green [00:22:05] party? Yeah. He was the most right wing person I’ve ever come across. Yeah. And I kind [00:22:10] of couldn’t understand it. And he made his speech and then he came down and I went up to him and said, dude, what [00:22:15] the hell is this Green Party stuff? And he just looked at me and he goes, you don’t really think I was going to be a conservative [00:22:20] in LSE, do you?

Sina Gilannejad: Really?

Payman Langroudi: And I was like, what? And he went. You think I’m gonna win as a conservative, [00:22:25] right? Buddy, I lost so much innocence on that day. This 18 year [00:22:30] old. Yeah, yeah. True. Yeah. And and the pursuit of power was [00:22:35] was the thing that this dude was after. Yeah. And and and I saw it in its truest form. [00:22:40] You know, like it’s.

Sina Gilannejad: Scary, man. And I mean, that’s, like you said, the loss [00:22:45] of innocence. Obviously, you kind of get your eyes get open. It’s like, what the heck? It’s almost like you [00:22:50] want to not believe it. Yeah. You hear them on the movies and stuff like that. You don’t want to not believe it. Then all of a sudden [00:22:55] you got the files coming out and all this stuff. You’re like, wow, this is what we know now. Like, what don’t we know? It’s [00:23:00] crazy.

Payman Langroudi: I used to, I used to listen to this conspiracy thing. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: I was literally thinking.

Payman Langroudi: About years ago, years [00:23:05] ago. And the guy said, yeah, there are these Satanists who like kill babies. And I [00:23:10] was like, this guy’s an idiot.

Sina Gilannejad: What’s going on? We’d all say.

Payman Langroudi: That. Well, this guy’s like mainstream. [00:23:15] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. You probably.

Sina Gilannejad: And that’s crazy to think, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: I [00:23:20] remember telling my buddies, you know that your mobile is constantly recording everything you’re saying. [00:23:25] Yeah. And my my two closest friends, they got worried about me and they [00:23:30] had like an intervention. Yeah. They were like, dude, we’re really worried about you. You’ve become paranoid. [00:23:35] And then literally six months later, the Snowden Snowden stuff came out [00:23:40] and said, yeah, everything. Everything’s being recorded. So I went back to them. We pissed off. And [00:23:45] then it’s so weird. They both completely forgotten that conversation immediately. Of [00:23:50] course, you know, it’s weird how like that, you know, they call it the Overton window.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like shifts. What’s [00:23:55] what’s acceptable to talk about?

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, massively. And you know what? Like I was actually thinking this [00:24:00] because obviously on the way here, um, I had my own podcast. [00:24:05] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I should have introduced you like that. I’m so sorry.

Sina Gilannejad: That’s all right.

Payman Langroudi: It wasn’t my most of the presenting [00:24:10] complaint, which was one of my favourite. I used to listen to that.

Sina Gilannejad: So sweet. Yeah. So me and, um, [00:24:15] Adam.

Payman Langroudi: Adam, who I had on this pod.

Sina Gilannejad: You did? And Adam, a lot of people will probably know from [00:24:20] his original thing that he had, which was, uh, the the positive [00:24:25] smiles club. Well, positive smiles club.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right.

Sina Gilannejad: That’s right. And that’s [00:24:30] how I first met Adam and became friends with him was through that. So it was such a lovely. It just [00:24:35] brought. So it was at a time where I was a student and I was just doomscrolling on Dental [00:24:40] Instagram comparing my pegs of crime preps. If. Well pegs is is [00:24:45] giving it. They didn’t have the height to be a peg. It was just a stump of, uh, crime preps and [00:24:50] just getting so beaten up by how like terrible my skills were. And, [00:24:55] um, and then I saw Adams and it was just, it’s exactly what it is. Positive [00:25:00] smiles and, uh, talked to these amazing dentists that everybody respects and [00:25:05] to hear like some real true, it’s how they feel and how they actually [00:25:10] act and realising that they’re all human. And actually the beliefs that I have are so unrealistic. So, [00:25:15] um, from that, uh, met up with Adam and Leaders. We instantly bonded, instantly [00:25:20] gelled, really good friends. And then when I was I had a really struggled [00:25:25] in my foundation year, my year, um, after dental school, because I, I’ve, I really thrived [00:25:30] in dental school, um, socially, academically, I did quite well as well. [00:25:35] And, um, just everything really went my way. I was, I was really fortunate and I didn’t [00:25:40] get the imposter syndrome or anything like that, that everybody else got during the time. [00:25:45]

Sina Gilannejad: And that’s not just sounding big headed. I just had a really good time. But all of that hit me when I went [00:25:50] into PhD. You know, there was a big break over the summer, um, and [00:25:55] then lost a few skills as well. Came into the real world in dentistry. And, and it really affected [00:26:00] me. And the thing that made it worse for me was actually, I had a fantastic, I got [00:26:05] Manchester as my DCT, my, sorry, my PhD post, which was the, the hardest to come [00:26:10] by. I think I ranked like 12th in the country for um, the sjt and things [00:26:15] that you had to do to, to rank. Um, so I did so well in that I got the top place in the country. I had [00:26:20] the best practice, the best is the best nurse, lovely [00:26:25] patient. I had everything. So to have all that and still like feel so anxious [00:26:30] of extraction, so anxious for any treatment I did that I wasn’t going to go well. Patient was going to hate me. It [00:26:35] made me feel worse. I was like, I’ve got it’s so much better than everyone else and I’m still struggling. [00:26:40]

Sina Gilannejad: So like double down. And there came a really real point. [00:26:45] I was crying so many times a week, you know, I really, really struggled. [00:26:50] I had family things that were going on at the same time as well. And when they those [00:26:55] family things, thank God, got better. I still felt really bad. And that’s when it really hit [00:27:00] me like a massive weight. I was like, oh no, the problem is, is inside. It’s with me. [00:27:05] So I started therapy and started [00:27:10] to understand myself more, started to deal with that childhood stuff that I was really saying at the start that actually [00:27:15] all this help I was doing for other people was pushing down. Or [00:27:20] just maybe I wouldn’t say, you know, I had a lovely upbringing as well. Maybe I didn’t [00:27:25] have much going on back then, but I didn’t deal with any small thing and it just [00:27:30] built up. Um, and it led to that massive confidence thing. [00:27:35] Um, and I got scared. I said, if this is going to be the rest of my life, I [00:27:40] don’t know what I’m going to do. So that’s one of the massive drivers [00:27:45] that took me to seeking DCT. I [00:27:50] just I needed a DCT.

Payman Langroudi: Move on before you move on. Yeah, give me an insight. Like in your particular [00:27:55] case, what was the problem and what was the unlock? [00:28:00] I mean, was there like a perfectionism that you were trying to achieve? And [00:28:05] that came because of when you were a child, something happened or and then what was the unlock [00:28:10] understanding that that’s where the, the, the root of it was because one thing that we do a mental health [00:28:15] podcast. Me and Rona. And one thing I realised about mental health after having [00:28:20] a few conversations, is that the same stimulus can give two people totally different responses. [00:28:25] Yeah. Um, based on the way that you take that stimulus. And so [00:28:30] it doesn’t make any sense for me to say, hey, why, why did that bother you? Because it’s just something [00:28:35] so simple. Um, or, you know, one, one person can go through war and, and [00:28:40] come out of it, okay? And the next person can have their mom say something and [00:28:45] break up over it, you know? Well, give me your reflections on that, the process [00:28:50] of finding that out. Um, was it painful? Was it the opposite of painful? It [00:28:55] cathartic.

Sina Gilannejad: It it was painful, actually. [00:29:00] Yeah. So I listened, I listened a lot to your podcast on that mental [00:29:05] health. I know like how many professionals you get in as well. It’s so nice to hear their thoughts. And I think [00:29:10] you two have such a lovely relationship to not challenge each other, but you know each other enough [00:29:15] to call out something and, and explore that. And I love that. And, um, [00:29:20] I think, I think if I’m digging back to sort of the childhood kind of stuff, [00:29:25] you, you kind of, you touched on it before, you know, like you’re [00:29:30] in this area where politics feels so taboo, a lot of different opinions feel so taboo. [00:29:35] So you just want to be a people pleaser. You want to say the right thing to be on everyone’s [00:29:40] side and, and never get cancelled, things like that. Um, and that happened for so long that it [00:29:45] just, it just became my personality and.

Payman Langroudi: And it weighed [00:29:50] on you.

Sina Gilannejad: It weighed a lot. Yeah. And in dental school, I can’t [00:29:55] say I did much different, um, in terms of sort of sticking true to myself or having [00:30:00] my own like actual beliefs rather than trying to understand. Yeah, I’ve always [00:30:05] understand everyone, but always trying to agree to their point. And so that [00:30:10] was a massive thing. Another thing just [00:30:15] digging into perfectionism was, was, and still is my biggest difficulty. I, [00:30:20] I have a problem of starting so many new hobbies [00:30:25] or starting things, not being instantly amazing at it and kicking it to the kerb. But [00:30:30] when, when you’re in dental school, you have this massive [00:30:35] goal of becoming a dentist. And that is fantastic. It’s, it’s good motivation to get you through it. [00:30:40] So those rubbish coin preps, I just, I honestly, the crown preps were [00:30:45] my worst thing. I was so bad, so bad.

Payman Langroudi: And would you laugh at now. [00:30:50] Right.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. It’s so funny. And it would ruin it would ruin me. Like I remember I was in the [00:30:55] clinical skills lab in Bristol and, um, she’s not there anymore. She’s in a different [00:31:00] profession, but the, um, nurse that was in charge, um, [00:31:05] Adele, she’s such a dear friend to me. She would always be signing you in, signing you out and everything. [00:31:10] And she was so good at people’s mental health and everything because Clinical Skills lab gets to you, gets [00:31:15] to you like having.

Payman Langroudi: This time you’re doing everything.

Sina Gilannejad: Exactly. Seeing like how long on the [00:31:20] road actually is. And there’s this one time we came back, I think it was start of third year.

Payman Langroudi: Wait, [00:31:25] clinical skills lab is the phantom head. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And we had to do [00:31:30] a full metal prep. Um, and we just got back from like summer holidays and I saw it and I looked at it, I [00:31:35] was like, I just got angry. I got filled with rage. And I said, Adele, I’m going. Where are you going? I’m going to the gym. I just need [00:31:40] to get rid of this energy. It’s like, you can’t, you can’t leave. You get in trouble. She was like, just try. I have tried. [00:31:45] And she said, no, no, no, it can’t be that bad. And I showed it to her and she just looked at it and she was like, okay, I’ll sign [00:31:50] you off. And I was like, right, no, I’ll take that as a, as a plus. Thank [00:31:55] you. And yeah, so, so, but, but you were in the environment. Everyone was trying to get better. [00:32:00] You have this goal to become a dentist. The, like the first hardest thing was actually getting into a dentist school. The [00:32:05] second thing is actually completing it. And then I got there, I practised, I did so much work [00:32:10] that made me such a good person, such a good dentist. Sorry, maybe not such a good person, such a good dentist. Um, [00:32:15] and like actually being able to do the, the, the preps and [00:32:20] everything like that. You can see the development. It’s great. That’s the nice thing about a practical job. You [00:32:25] can physically see yourself improving and that’s good motivation. And then became a dentist. [00:32:30] And then all of a sudden, one of the main drops that sort of led to the spiral [00:32:35] was I lost a massive goal. I was like.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, because you’ve become a dentist.

Sina Gilannejad: Become a dentist [00:32:40] now, like now what? And, and all I did back in my life was set massive unattainable [00:32:45] goals, like goals that I thought that I couldn’t make but I could work towards. And like I said, [00:32:50] rugby was a huge part back in my life because, you know, you’re a young kid with all this testosterone [00:32:55] and energy and you need to put it towards something. And it was rugby. And being an Iranian, I hit puberty [00:33:00] fast. So that helped a lot. And then I somehow I then got to the [00:33:05] the top team in rugby and I was like, that’s the first big goal. So then I’ll do dentistry. And then I became a dentist. [00:33:10] And then all of a sudden I was at a point in my life where I didn’t really have a [00:33:15] massive goal for myself. I’m not talking about like finding.

Payman Langroudi: No, [00:33:20] I get it.

Sina Gilannejad: You know, a relationship, finding a wife, it just a personal goal.

Payman Langroudi: I get it, and [00:33:25] I don’t think it’s talked about enough. Yeah. That that first day and first few months in [00:33:30] the PhD job. It’s hard, man. It’s hard. You’ve got no, no no one [00:33:35] around you anymore. I mean, you do write on that, on that.

Sina Gilannejad: But no one like on the same level. [00:33:40]

Payman Langroudi: As you.

Sina Gilannejad: In this exact same place, same number.

Payman Langroudi: Of days. You know, the other thing, my daughter’s just announced she wants [00:33:45] to be a dentist. 15.

Sina Gilannejad: How does that make you feel?

Payman Langroudi: Uh. Happy, happy, happy in the end. Happy [00:33:50] in the end. But but but. 15. Yeah. Yeah. Until the day when [00:33:55] you arrive and feeds. 24.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And, and, you know, [00:34:00] arguably she’s been working from 2013 to, to be top of her class or whatever, whatever it is. Yeah. [00:34:05] You talk about like ten years of struggle.

Sina Gilannejad: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Proper struggle. Yeah. We all know [00:34:10] getting into dental school now, a complete nightmare.

Sina Gilannejad: It was hard back then.

Payman Langroudi: Now it’s a complete [00:34:15] nightmare. And then surviving dental school. Complete nightmare. And then you. And [00:34:20] then you get to this point, you’re like, Now I’m a dentist. Yeah. All right. Yeah. And suddenly [00:34:25] it’s not that interesting. Yeah, exactly. It’s one of the reasons I started enlightened in the childishness of that [00:34:30] feeling. Yeah. I was like, oh, I need more impact. Yeah. Um, but, but let’s [00:34:35] move on and, and sort of talk about, you know, the perfectionism [00:34:40] being on, on the one end, you know, like every, everything you are is your [00:34:45] biggest strength and your biggest weakness. Yeah. Your perfectionism is a massive strength. Yeah. Yeah. And yet, as [00:34:50] you’ve just discussed, a massive weakness, have you now learned to be more forgiving [00:34:55] of yourself because, you know, you can perfectionism to you could mean being the best [00:35:00] crown prepper in your practice. Yeah. Or it could be being the best crown [00:35:05] prep in the whole of Dental beauty. Yeah. Or in the whole of the UK or in the whole world. I [00:35:10] mean, it just goes on and on and on. It’s impossible to be perfect. So have you found yourself, [00:35:15] like, forgiving yourself a little bit more, being kinder to yourself? I think is that the unlock or is there a different [00:35:20] unlock?

Sina Gilannejad: I think I have not, I [00:35:25] only did a small stint of therapy, and I’m definitely gonna be going back [00:35:30] and making a regular thing, I think.

Payman Langroudi: But how did you find your therapist? [00:35:35]

Sina Gilannejad: Uh, so I used a practitioners health and, and that’s something I advocate [00:35:40] a lot on me and Adam’s podcast. Um, it’s a free NHS service for dental [00:35:45] and medical practitioners. Oh, really? Yeah. To use. And so you sign up, um, and [00:35:50] they, it’s about two month wait, three month wait, it was back two years ago, [00:35:55] which is not bad to get free cognitive behavioural therapy. So that’s what’s, that’s what they prescribed [00:36:00] me in a way to do an initial assessment and then see like, which way would go. And [00:36:05] the whole premise of it is that everybody knows your medic, everyone knows your dentist. Everything you know is confidential. [00:36:10] And they you don’t have to waste time explaining the stresses of your work, you know? [00:36:15] Um, so that was really nice. And the main thing for me was I was free to be honest, because I’ve just [00:36:20] started PhD. I’m living away from home. Yeah. You know, I got everything I wanted when I [00:36:25] was a kid, but by no means was there very much surplus. So that was a big thing.

Payman Langroudi: And so [00:36:30] what did you learn? What did you learn? So you the signs, the early signs of.

Sina Gilannejad: Well, I actually [00:36:35] learned what exactly was wrong with me, which is crazy because I [00:36:40] went in, I went in like a sociopath. I went in being like, they’re gonna say this. [00:36:45] I’m gonna tell them this, this, that, and they’re gonna say it’s because of this, this, this and that. I was like, [00:36:50] cocky about it. And I was like, I’m just not gonna help. I was, I’m definitely the worst patient. [00:36:55] And I went in and I thought at that [00:37:00] moment everything that was wrong with my life was my family issues, health, [00:37:05] health of my family issues, you know. Um, and [00:37:10] that once that was over, I’d be okay. That’s what I thought. [00:37:15] And the reason I actually then went to the therapist was because.

Payman Langroudi: It didn’t get better.

Sina Gilannejad: It didn’t get better. And [00:37:20] that, like you said, was that a relief? Was that a what? It was a massive crushing weight. That [00:37:25] was the moment where I was like, I remember so well [00:37:30] sitting in my room getting the call and everything was good, and [00:37:35] then just sitting and I was so happy. And then I hung up the phone and I just, I just remember just staring [00:37:40] off in the distance and just literally saying out loud shit, because it just hit me. I was [00:37:45] like, oh, this is it’s all inside. It’s me. It’s not [00:37:50] my external factors and things are going to get better once it’s done. It’s with me. And I’ve used so many things as an [00:37:55] excuse to mask that until now, like I can’t run away from it anymore. So then I got the [00:38:00] therapist, and when we talked, I talked about the family stuff the whole time. Sorry, I thought I would be talking [00:38:05] about the family stuff the whole time. And in that first session, I talked about it and [00:38:10] the whole premise of I’m going to do this, you know, I’m not going to do it justice right now. But [00:38:15] the main premise of cognitive behaviour therapy is really taking a thought that you [00:38:20] have. So me saying, I’m not a good dentist. Okay, why? Because [00:38:25] when I do a crime prep, it’s not perfect. Okay. What is perfect? Oh, [00:38:30] with this and this and much. Okay. What? Like did what you do still work? Yeah. Okay. Well, then [00:38:35] why are you upset about it? Can, you know you can get better? Yeah. And do you think that’s unrealistic? What you thought is. Yeah. So [00:38:40] it’s it’s d catastrophizing everything.

Payman Langroudi: Breaking it down.

Sina Gilannejad: Breaking it down, taking that thought, seeing [00:38:45] how unrealistic it is and how I actually don’t really care about that. And [00:38:50] then what do you do afterwards. And, and instantly that was the family stuff. So after I had, I think maybe [00:38:55] eight sessions after the first session, I didn’t talk about my family ever again. [00:39:00] I was like, at any time, like I said, that psychotic part of [00:39:05] being like, I’m gonna say this. They’re gonna say that never, ever once said anything that I thought. And [00:39:10] that blew my mind. It I, I got so much trust in that therapist. And I always say to my [00:39:15] patients, now, you know, and this is another topic we’ll get on later. But the whole like patient, [00:39:20] oh, the society outlook on dentists, how negative that is. [00:39:25] And I have a massive proponent. I am a massive believer. My a huge opinion. I have [00:39:30] working in hospital and working in practice. So being the referrer being the one you [00:39:35] refer to, the dentists are the worst people for this relationship that we have. Obviously [00:39:40] back in the day, it’s a hot topic. I should, I should have get through that. Back [00:39:45] in the day, dentistry was completely different. All right. You’ve all heard that story of [00:39:50] dentist did this without numbing, and they were on my chest and all that stuff. And we all know like the stuff that [00:39:55] patients can incorrectly perceive, but we can [00:40:00] all you have to understand that she absolutely was different back then. 100%. So people do have very [00:40:05] real trauma that comes about it and they say this, this and that. But the last dentist, and [00:40:10] then from what I’ve seen, what most dentists just shovel the shit.

Sina Gilannejad: They’ll [00:40:15] say, oh, they did this, they did that or this, this, that. There’s always excuses. There’s never [00:40:20] there. Obviously there is, but it’s hardly ever listening, understanding, first [00:40:25] of all, acknowledging to the patient like, that sounds like a lot. I’m really sorry that that’s what you [00:40:30] went through. Um, if it means anything, seeing from what your dentist did, I [00:40:35] don’t necessarily think they did anything wrong. It was just a really tough situation for you and them. [00:40:40] And unfortunately that relationship broke down. I’d like to hope that we can do something different, um, and [00:40:45] get on board with that. And that’s it. You’ve not put down another dentist, you’ve not done that. You’ve [00:40:50] not had the upsell here, upsell there, You know, I’ve had in practice so [00:40:55] much bad talk about hospital. Mhm. I, [00:41:00] I know I work in practice now. I know how busy and crazy practice is. And [00:41:05] you are the first interface a patient comes to. And when you can’t [00:41:10] solve the problem and you have to tell the patient, there’s this much weight, it’s really hard. And the patient [00:41:15] comes back like, oh, they left the root in there and blah, blah, blah, stuff like that. And then it’s so easy to talk bad about hospital. But [00:41:20] I’ve also been in hospital where they talk bad about dentists. So I’m so fortunate that I took that experience to see [00:41:25] all the sides. Um, and I think the one, the main thing that we can control is how [00:41:30] we treat each other. Patients will, you know, if a patient [00:41:35] has decided they don’t want to like you, they won’t like you.

Payman Langroudi: So true.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about [00:41:40] DCT.

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, DCT was such a journey. Best decision I’ve ever made. [00:41:45]

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Sina Gilannejad: Best decision I’ve ever made. So?

Payman Langroudi: So you’re. Is that your advice [00:41:50] for everyone.

Sina Gilannejad: My my advice, and you’ll hear this a lot in me and Adam’s podcast. Me [00:41:55] and Adam’s podcast to to generalise it. This was the premise we had was I [00:42:00] had just finished PhD, had a terrible time mentally and was in a place [00:42:05] where I felt like, like you said, the main thing you said was you just don’t have that person [00:42:10] there to talk to anymore, to rationalise, to be like, oh, I’m feeling exactly the same and this, this, that and this. And [00:42:15] that’s what I wanted to fix. I needed to hear that. So the premise was Adam had just started PhD [00:42:20] and I had just started DCT. So as we’d start, we’d both reflect on [00:42:25] week on week. Yeah. And obviously I had the advantage [00:42:30] of having done PhD. So when Adam was feeling this way, I’d tell him about my experience. And through [00:42:35] that we shared it with everyone else. And that was the main feedback that we got. So many people said, [00:42:40] I just really needed to hear this. Like, it was so nice to hear that I’m not the only one. And this advice that [00:42:45] you sort of said to try and get ahead was so good, because I’m a keen dentist, [00:42:50] but I’m not sitting at night scrolling through all these articles [00:42:55] and things like that and listening to all these Dental like, like, you know, the meaty [00:43:00] like, like an amazing podcast like this or Protrusive dental podcast where they’re actually [00:43:05] giving you amazing advice. I just can’t like, I just, I was like, I don’t want to think about dentistry anymore, which is why I [00:43:10] listened to a lot of the mental health one that you have. Um, and Adam is much more keen, but he’s very [00:43:15] realistic. So we went through that and my DCT one. So after [00:43:20] PhD.

Payman Langroudi: Just explain to see one and two, like what happens? Do you zoom in on a particular [00:43:25] area?

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. So to, to summarise it, if you want to do [00:43:30] Dental core training, which is usually ends you up in a hospital or the community dental practice setting, it’s [00:43:35] the only requirement it is, is if you ever want to specialise through a hospital pathway, [00:43:40] you need to have done DCT one and two.

Payman Langroudi: There’s like, like house jobs in our day, [00:43:45] right?

Sina Gilannejad: It’s exactly that. It’s replaced what used to be a senior house officer. Okay, it’s exactly that. Okay. [00:43:50]

Payman Langroudi: Um, so what subject were you?

Sina Gilannejad: So I, when I finished PhD, I [00:43:55] was lost. So I said, I want to get better at extractions and see what everything else I can do. And [00:44:00] I want to teach. So you the way it is, you’ve got a massive list [00:44:05] of all the posts in the country that offer txnrd1, and each one of them will say, this is DC [00:44:10] one in restorative, this is DC one in Max, this is DC one in oral medicine, every single [00:44:15] speciality or a combination. And that’s what Cardiff was. I had six months, uh, oral [00:44:20] surgery and oral medicine. And then the next six months [00:44:25] was um, was more oral surgery. It was restorative. [00:44:30] It was mainly it was just restorative. But I still did like the emergency clinics and all. Yeah. There [00:44:35] wasn’t, I was lucky there was no uncle and I didn’t do maxfax. That was the main thing. I didn’t do. Maxfax. It was it was [00:44:40] the one thing I missed out. And I had a blast. First of all, taking [00:44:45] the foot off the pedal from practice because hospital. One of the main things [00:44:50] is it is definitely a slower pace. It is much nicer.

Payman Langroudi: Slower, more social.

Sina Gilannejad: Way more social, which [00:44:55] I thrived off. I love it, I love sticking my head in here and having a gander and talking to this and then like treating one patient, [00:45:00] go into the next room treating another patient. Loved it, loved it, really thrived in that aspect. And you know, the [00:45:05] people pleaser in me had a great time. Yeah. And, um, and I learned so [00:45:10] much, like once you finished dental school, all those stupid lectures that you just had to learn all of [00:45:15] a sudden then you do a year in practice, you start to see actually what is important. You start [00:45:20] to filter out things and then actually you become more interested. I hated oral medicine in dental [00:45:25] school because I just was so bad at remembering things, and there were so many small details to, to [00:45:30] learn. And then I went into Cardiff and I had the best time.

Payman Langroudi: Mike Lewis, did [00:45:35] you have him?

Sina Gilannejad: I had my first of all, I had his book and the first day I was working there.

Payman Langroudi: Mike Lewis was one of the best teachers. [00:45:40]

Sina Gilannejad: He.

Payman Langroudi: Full stop. Not just teachers of oral medicine. Unbelievable. [00:45:45] Teacher. I know he was. He was Dean and all that, but.

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, he was he was.

Payman Langroudi: Everything. But when I was there, he just come. He’d just come [00:45:50] from Bristol, I think, or Glasgow. He, he was, he, he was [00:45:55] such a brilliant teacher. Every single person in my year and in our cohort [00:46:00] the, the years around. Yeah. All of us or medicine was our favourite subject [00:46:05] because of Mike Lewis.

Sina Gilannejad: And it shapes you. It does.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant teacher.

Sina Gilannejad: Absolutely. And they always say like, if you ever end [00:46:10] up specialising, someone asks you who taught you because they just inspired you. So true. That’s it. Because [00:46:15] all aspects of dentistry, it’s pretty fun. And if you actually get inspired to [00:46:20] learn about it, it’s great. So Mike Lewis, the first one I met when I went to Cardiff, um, and then, [00:46:25] uh, Phil Atkin I met as well. I think he would have been there at that time as well. And [00:46:30] I fell in love. Mike Lewis something that he above his teaching, above everything is the charisma [00:46:35] that man has. Oh my God. Yeah. He can speak. Oh you know what. Thank God he’s on our side. [00:46:40] If he was like a Nazi or something.

Speaker 5: And it’d be over.

Sina Gilannejad: It’d be over. He’d probably turn the whole country. That’s how [00:46:45] much charisma he has. Yeah, yeah. Um, so, uh, so yeah, I, I had a, the [00:46:50] oral medicine, the subject I hated the most. All of a sudden I was researching and [00:46:55] I was looking and I was really into it and I loved it. I started to understand it so much more. Oral [00:47:00] surgery, oral surgery is funny. I didn’t get any [00:47:05] surgical experience that I wanted. I just had a lot of simple extractions. I got [00:47:10] some like surgical here and there, no weights or anything like that. So that was a big reason for me going for.

Payman Langroudi: At least you got good traction. [00:47:15]

Sina Gilannejad: And, and you know what? And the nurses, they would throw a fit [00:47:20] if it went surgery would be like, oh, it’s gonna be so much effort. I’m doing this that so the fear of, of hearing [00:47:25] that made you make sure you luxated properly elevated properly. And I got very good at [00:47:30] simple extractions, which is definitely a good the foundation you need to then move into Surgicals. That’s [00:47:35] right. And then Restoratives as well. I, I got to see everything you could do, you [00:47:40] know, the obviously just the secondary pathway in itself was amazing. And [00:47:45] then something I really fell in love with in restorative was getting to treat the oncology patients. [00:47:50] These people that had radical head and neck therapy like.

Payman Langroudi: Radiotherapy. [00:47:55]

Sina Gilannejad: Obturators, these crazy things, you know, half their face cut off and somehow these prosthesis [00:48:00] put back in and Cardiff, uh, one of the most advanced, if not the most advanced [00:48:05] um lab in the country. They have 3D printers out the wazoo, scanners out [00:48:10] the wazoo. They’re doing charity work for dogs that have had half their face shot off. [00:48:15] And really in Puerto Rico somewhere it was, I can’t remember. And they’ve got like a skeleton [00:48:20] mesh framework of that. And they send it off. They do so much. It’s a fantastic. They’re they’re also [00:48:25] now working with the general surgeons and the surgeons to make custom prosthesis, 3D printing. [00:48:30] Fantastic. That was amazing to work for. And yeah, so I got so much confidence [00:48:35] through that. And I always. And from that experience, I kept telling Adam on the podcast. Look, when [00:48:40] it comes when you just start PhD, you have to apply for DCT. So soon [00:48:45] you won’t know if you actually want to do it or not, but just apply for it. It’s free, apply for it. And if you don’t want to do it, don’t [00:48:50] do the stuff. That’s fine. At least your name’s there.

Sina Gilannejad: If you want to specialise, great. But [00:48:55] most of the time going into hospital makes you not want to specialise. And that’ll be the consultants [00:49:00] that tell you themselves because they say, look, what do you want to do? I want to be really good at restorative. It’s okay. Learn here, go [00:49:05] do it privately or become a staff grade here. You don’t have to specialise so much time, so much money [00:49:10] is what you want to do. You don’t actually need to specialise for oh, okay. So you [00:49:15] start to learn what you can do. And that’s a massive thing for oral surgery as well. So the advice would [00:49:20] be if you’re dead set, then yeah, you do DCT because you need specialise. If not, do it because [00:49:25] you learn so much about the career. At least you know where you’re sending your patients. You know, the state that the NHS [00:49:30] is in right now as well. And I it would never go down, [00:49:35] but I really and I was told this as well. I I really believe my dk2 was in Max Fox, and I think there [00:49:40] should be at least a six month rotation in Max Fox.

Payman Langroudi: Mandatory.

Sina Gilannejad: Mandatory. [00:49:45] It makes you an amazing. It. I was at the end. I was like, I don’t [00:49:50] have surgical experience. I want to do another DCT because I’ve got the freedom to move around. [00:49:55] I want to do it somewhere good. And because I think I’ll never go near Max Fox again, or sorry, [00:50:00] I’ll never go near Max Fox if I don’t do it now. I want to try Max Fox. And I was humming and eyeing and I [00:50:05] was. I was tearing myself apart, just trying to think like, is it worth it? Like I’ve heard these horror stories and everything. And then [00:50:10] one of the oral surgeons finally said to me, they looked at me and they just said, look, whatever [00:50:15] you choose, you’re going to learn clinically, you will 100% max. You’re going to learn [00:50:20] so much about yourself. And we said in the way here, you did Max Fox stint as well, and you said, it [00:50:25] makes a man out of you. It it absolutely does. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And it puts stuff into [00:50:30] context, man.

Sina Gilannejad: And that’s what I needed for a perfectionist. Yeah, that’s exactly what for someone that’s [00:50:35] scared of the worst case scenario. What’s the worst case scenario? Someone could die.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Go [00:50:40] to the max box. You’ll see the worst case scenario.

Payman Langroudi: Scare the shit out of you, mate.

Sina Gilannejad: I was so scared. So [00:50:45] I had a lovely, lovely friend. I still have a lovely friend in 2 or 3 years above [00:50:50] me. Name is Maria. And I put up my Instagram. You know, I we we got, we [00:50:55] got really good traction with the audience on Instagram since our podcast. And I put on Instagram, I was like, [00:51:00] I didn’t know where to put. I was like, oh, I should put a store on Instagram. I said, anyone know anywhere good for Max wax? Um, [00:51:05] and then she popped up and she just said, Go to Chesterfield. I was like, what the hell is Chesterfield? [00:51:10] I’ve never heard of Chesterfield, bro. Um, and um, I said, okay, why? [00:51:15] She said, you know, there’s no Night-Time, uncles, no weekend uncles, you’re [00:51:20] on call, but really supportive practice place and you’re only one of two [00:51:25] seats. So you’ll have so much.

Payman Langroudi: You’ll see a lot.

Sina Gilannejad: You’ll see a lot, do a lot and do a lot. [00:51:30] Yeah, absolutely. And then any of the major stuff, like the really, really crazy stuff that comes through and he goes to Sheffield. It’s [00:51:35] like sick.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s kind of a good point. Yeah. Because you you sometimes think if I go to a major [00:51:40] teaching centre, that’s the place to learn, but that’s the place to see. Exactly. Not [00:51:45] the place to do 100%.

Sina Gilannejad: That’s exactly it. And that was another thing that was told to me when I [00:51:50] was in Cardiff. They said, go to a district general. So District General Hospital for people that know is just a [00:51:55] smaller hospital. It’s not a city centre hospital like a London one. It’s like somewhere in like a [00:52:00] Surrey’s own hospital or something like that. And it’s a smaller hospital, which means you’ve got less patients [00:52:05] going through. And for some really maybe not great reason. Um, [00:52:10] good for you. I don’t think it would have been maybe it’s been ten years plus now, but [00:52:15] before these district journeys would be doing all the major surgeries. So if you’ve got like these 12 hour [00:52:20] head and neck surgeries, they do them. But then something called centralisation happened. And actually all the major [00:52:25] surgeries, those like the major cancer surgeries, all that they have to be done in a central hospital. [00:52:30] So again, those were sent to Sheffield, which meant that I didn’t get much experience in the cancer [00:52:35] surgeries I did because I took like some weekends off and I actually went and saw them [00:52:40] and. But I didn’t like so keen. Yeah, no, just to see it. And then I’d be like, yeah, good.

Payman Langroudi: It’s super [00:52:45] interesting. It’s super interesting. It’s, but to, to, to build on your point, I, I went to, uh, [00:52:50] I mean, it was a place for underprivileged people [00:52:55] in Iran. My, my uncle was a dentist. And, uh, in one [00:53:00] day I was, I was second year dental student in one day I took out 45 teeth. [00:53:05]

Sina Gilannejad: Amazing. Which is what I did in five years.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, [00:53:10] you know, there was a queue outside and my uncle would go outside and inject everyone in the queue so they’d [00:53:15] be fully numb by the time they literally standing in the street getting injected by him. It [00:53:20] was the government, you know, like the, the, the, the, the sort of safety net government thing, only [00:53:25] extractions. That’s what it was. But, uh, you learn right when you learn when you do. [00:53:30] Yeah. So. Okay. So you one thing, you’ve [00:53:35] got a responsibility here insomuch as a lot of people are going to come [00:53:40] to you and ask for advice. Mhm. Even in your limited career, I mean, you’re you’re [00:53:45] still a baby, right? Yeah. Mhm. But because of the podcast and all of that, people are [00:53:50] going to come and ask advice. Yeah. And there’s a responsibility in giving that advice. And one [00:53:55] thing I would always tell anyone who’s asking for advice is to bear in mind [00:54:00] the bias of the person you’re asking.

Sina Gilannejad: Massively.

Payman Langroudi: It’s kind of makes sense anyway, [00:54:05] right? If I ask you what I should do, you tell me what you did. Yeah. And you give me that. [00:54:10] It makes sense because that’s all you know. Yeah. Yeah. But as the person giving the advice, you do [00:54:15] need to sort of bear that in mind. Like, like discount for that bias. [00:54:20]

Sina Gilannejad: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Because, you know, one guy might have fitted to do what you [00:54:25] did. Mhm. But then like, for instance, your wife Mantsebo shouldn’t do any of [00:54:30] this, right? She went to.

Sina Gilannejad: She went straight into.

Payman Langroudi: Practice. Yeah. Yeah. And and the benefit that she got in practice [00:54:35] while you were doing this stuff might be right for someone who, who gives who’s coming [00:54:40] for advice 100%. But that whole advice bias thing, because, [00:54:45] you know, bear in mind from my from my position, yeah, I get lots and lots and lots and lots and lots [00:54:50] of people asking me for advice. What should I do next? I’m not going to tell all of them to start, you know, like [00:54:55] Dental supply companies. Yeah, yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course. But if I, if I just [00:55:00] told them what I did. Yeah. Which a lot of people do, you know, then everyone gets the same advice [00:55:05] from you.

Sina Gilannejad: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s an important responsibility of someone in your position. And you’re only [00:55:10] newly in this position.

Sina Gilannejad: Well, I graduated in what is it, [00:55:15] 24 years. 2022, bro. It was like, it’s just about to be four years since I [00:55:20] graduated. So that’s why I’m very conscious not to come on here and talk like, uh, Bill gates or someone. [00:55:25] I am a I’m still a Dental baby. But and this was what the podcast was so amazing [00:55:30] for, because we talked to those other people, I talked to so many other people and I had Adam and [00:55:35] the main, the main advice most of the time, especially for the young ones, is hospital [00:55:40] versus general practice. Yeah, I’ve done both now and even when I was in hospital because [00:55:45] I saw it. So most people want to do restorative. And I asked him, what do you want to do? Restorative? Okay. [00:55:50] Do you want to treat head and neck cancer patients? No. You’ll do more cases in practice. How [00:55:55] do you get good at something? Repetition. I get to take out tons of teeth [00:56:00] in hospital because that’s all we do. That’s repetition. That’s. I needed to go to that hospital. [00:56:05] Maxfax you can’t do in a practice, so have to go to hospital.

Sina Gilannejad: But if you want to get good at restorative, [00:56:10] then do restorative, stay in a general practice, do the work. If you can afford the courses, do the courses [00:56:15] and you’ll get there. You and you will get there much faster. To become a restorative [00:56:20] consultant. You’re the main things you’re getting is much more responsibility. You have to [00:56:25] oversee all the staff grades and everyone that’s. And everyone getting referred from the country to that, to that [00:56:30] to your place. Yes. You get to try some crazy innovative stuff and you’ve got the protection of the hospital behind [00:56:35] you. But if you want to do smile makeovers, you [00:56:40] go to a hospital for get good at the basics in general practice. Get good at [00:56:45] making getting people out of pain. Get good at taking teeth out. Um, so that when things go [00:56:50] wrong, you can just take it out at least. Um, and then invest in these courses. There’s [00:56:55] so many courses. The hardest, the hardest thing would be to choose which course to go on. Um, and for [00:57:00] that one, you just have to talk to people or specialise.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Sina Gilannejad: Or specialised. But Payman [00:57:05] what a lot of the awakening moment for me was, um, [00:57:10] I had a, I only had him for one teaching session and he said to me, my biggest regret [00:57:15] in becoming a specialist was um, rushing to become a specialist. He said, I [00:57:20] did the straight pathway. I did dental school training year then into the speciality pathway. [00:57:25] Oh, sorry. One two. Into the speciality pathway. He didn’t take a break in between. He said I regretted that so much. [00:57:30] I could have specialised at any time I wanted. Yes, I was fresher, yes. I wouldn’t have had a family and stuff like that. But I’ve had [00:57:35] my family and everything.

Payman Langroudi: Where’s the regret?

Sina Gilannejad: The regret was doing it too much, he said. Too quick because he could have [00:57:40] been in practice for a while, learned that stuff, get good at the basics and then do it or take [00:57:45] things chill. Like he’s got all this responsibility. You take time off. A half a dozen [00:57:50] people just died for some reason.

Payman Langroudi: The thing about specialising is expensive. Yeah, massively. That’s it. [00:57:55]

Sina Gilannejad: Massively.

Payman Langroudi: That’s really it. It’s hard. Expensive. Anyone can do it. I know people, I know people who [00:58:00] knew nothing and no one. If you like that phrase. Yeah, [00:58:05] specialised and you everything and everyone. Absolutely.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: They [00:58:10] went from NHS practice to full mouth rehab. Yeah. In Harley Street [00:58:15] because of a three year course. Yeah. Yeah. Nothing wrong with that. [00:58:20] Yeah. Nothing wrong with that. Um, I get your point. You don’t have to. Some of the best dentists [00:58:25] I know aren’t specialists, right? You can you can go to Spear and Kois and and a [00:58:30] bunch of other courses here and practice. Practice really important. Yeah. [00:58:35]

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. And that’s the it’s just a way of trying to take pressure off those young dentists [00:58:40] because that’s the pressure I had. You get taught in a, you [00:58:45] know, all the dental schools in the UK, you can have your opinions and which ones which. But all of them are [00:58:50] global. You know, they’re up there, they’re up there. They’re top, top ten, top 20. [00:58:55] They’re absolute institutions. So you’re going to learn from really [00:59:00] successful and really good clinicians. Obviously some of them we know are rubbish, but [00:59:05] you’re going to and you’re going to be inspired to become a specialist. So you come out thinking that’s the pathway next. That’s the next [00:59:10] big goal. And then in my head, I was like, is that the next big goal? I guess maybe, [00:59:15] maybe that will help me. And when I went into hospital, I started to see I [00:59:20] could do it. But I don’t know if that would feel what [00:59:25] this hole is at the moment. I’m still looking for that.

Payman Langroudi: So are you looking to be [00:59:30] restorative?

Sina Gilannejad: Um, I want to be perfectionist. [00:59:35] I want to be able to be good and [00:59:40] predictable with as many things as I can.

Payman Langroudi: Um, like a super generalist.

Sina Gilannejad: I [00:59:45] think.

Payman Langroudi: Like, have you considered a year course aspire crystal. [00:59:50] Yeah, I have.

Sina Gilannejad: I’m at a place unfortunately where financially I can’t [00:59:55] commit to it yet because I’ve got a lot of financial commitments that I have made or want [01:00:00] to make, and I, and I don’t want to rush into things [01:00:05] I really don’t from, from all the advice that I got from these, you know, accomplished [01:00:10] staff grades and specialists in hospital, it’s [01:00:15] made me just realise that it’s not a race. And actually I’ve realised that. And [01:00:20] and one of the biggest parts of my healing has been realising that maybe dentistry wasn’t [01:00:25] everything. It wasn’t as important to me as I [01:00:30] wanted it to be.

Payman Langroudi: What does that mean?

Sina Gilannejad: It means that I. I thought [01:00:35] it needed to be my life’s work and passion. Mhm. But then after Max factor, then realising [01:00:40] how quickly these things can go away and actually. And [01:00:45] after getting married, I was kind of like, oh, I like this a lot more than dentistry. [01:00:50] And and it’s okay. And I want to be fulfilled by the work that I do, which [01:00:55] I was in hospital and the skills that it’s given me. I, I am in general practice [01:01:00] now, but I want to be fulfilled and let it pay [01:01:05] for the life that I want to live. And [01:01:10] that’s a life that I think I’m still trying to figure out which [01:01:15] direction that is. Is that a non I love teaching. Teaching was the best and Cardiff. [01:01:20] I got so much opportunity in Chesterfield. I got to teach a lot of the Sheffield grads [01:01:25] as well, and it was so nice because I felt like I was healing myself [01:01:30] at the same time by trying to give like the advice that I wish I got back then. [01:01:35] And, and I think a lot of me wants to [01:01:40] invest more into that side of things. So I’ve not ruled out hospital. Um, but [01:01:45] it was really nice to, it is really nice to come to general [01:01:50] practice and I almost started as an PhD again. Yeah. The first three months was so [01:01:55] hard getting used to.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about that. Tell me about that to Dental beauty. You’ve got [01:02:00] a principal there.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah. So I’ve been working in Dalston and I’m working in Basildon. [01:02:05]

Payman Langroudi: On two different.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. Two different, both Dental beauties.

Payman Langroudi: Are they both the same principle or two different.

Sina Gilannejad: Two different principles as [01:02:10] well. And um enjoying it very much in both places.

Payman Langroudi: Is that a coincidence or [01:02:15] was that like.

Sina Gilannejad: It was thankfully, because, uh, my wife has been here for multiple [01:02:20] years and she was working with Dental Beauty as well. She got to know a lot of them [01:02:25] as a small circle. Yeah. And so she told me that wants to go for. Yeah. And that’s it. And they were the first [01:02:30] ones I applied for and I got them. And a massive thing that I could bring to them was my sedation experience [01:02:35] and, um, an oral surgery experience. So, um, a lot of my work [01:02:40] is general and then the majority of the, the work I do extra is the extraction. [01:02:45] So I do the wisdom teeth. I did a surgical extractions.

Payman Langroudi: Um, are you fully confident with [01:02:50] wisdom teeth?

Sina Gilannejad: Like it’s a whole different because, because like I said, I didn’t [01:02:55] do any surgical in DC one. All my surgical experience with DC two. That was one year. Yeah. Um, and [01:03:00] obviously in that year, you got to get, you know, the speed of things, getting on call, going to A&E [01:03:05] and stuff and the surgical stuff. There’s a whole other aspect of Maxfax. But I got so much experience. [01:03:10] I got taught by someone who is absolutely my best [01:03:15] friend now, um, is Andy. He’s he’s a staff grade. He’s [01:03:20] everything I think that I want to have, like, I want to farm. I want to be [01:03:25] able to like, just get in and do anything and, and, and be the one to save the day and stuff if it can’t [01:03:30] come out and, and we get on so well. And, and I was he [01:03:35] just let me be the lead surgeon. And no matter what, he’d always be there for me. And, and a massive thing about [01:03:40] learning is, yes, the, the repetition, the practice, but just knowing there’s [01:03:45] a safety net, the idea of knowing me, especially like for me anyway, I can only really [01:03:50] compare it to, well, I’ve done all aspects now, but knowing that someone’s there for you to [01:03:55] save the day for an extraction makes you actually go for it and do it properly. And, and he [01:04:00] was a massive thing for me. And having not having that safety net now is [01:04:05] so scary.

Payman Langroudi: You find that difficult.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, it’s it’s scary. And, you know, I’ve [01:04:10] had, you know, teeth Did something. I got told I’m a [01:04:15] very through my prime. What was it? Throw my toys out the pram kind of person. [01:04:20] So you know if the exception doesn’t go right for me, if I leave a retained root of an eight, you know, [01:04:25] or it’s like massive, dense bone and nothing’s moving, I have to leave it behind. I take it to heart really badly [01:04:30] and it’s still a problem. I’m getting better with it every time. But, um, that happened in practice and [01:04:35] patients fine. And she’s so lovely. Um, I was, I was almost taking it [01:04:40] more to heart. I did take away more to heart than she did. And it came to a point where I had to check myself so she wouldn’t [01:04:45] start consoling me. And after that, I definitely hit a crossroad [01:04:50] where I was like, I kind of feel like I’m either never going to be the [01:04:55] special interest oral surgeon and do these again, or I’m this is where [01:05:00] I, I buckle down, book more in and learn and show myself that I can [01:05:05] do it. And thankfully I did that. And after the next week or two, um, I did like a [01:05:10] few more wisdom teeth and I actually went as expected and it brought a lot of confidence back, but it’s still so [01:05:15] scary. It is still scary.

Payman Langroudi: Listening to you. My, my first instinct is someone [01:05:20] like you who’s comfortable with flaps and all of that. Mhm. Implants, man. [01:05:25] Learn implants. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: And a lot of people have told me that.

Payman Langroudi: And implants, man. I mean, [01:05:30] like, like super accelerated implants. Like, like make that the number one goal for the next [01:05:35] five years. Yeah. Yeah. Now, listen, you don’t have to do.

Sina Gilannejad: No, no, no.

Payman Langroudi: Go. [01:05:40] Go into endo. Yeah. Go into endo. Yeah, yeah. Like make that the number one. Yeah. For the next five years [01:05:45] or whatever. But someone like you who’s very super comfortable with blood and and oral [01:05:50] surgery, you’re already sort of.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, you’re [01:05:55] not. I got the basics. I got halfway there. Yeah. You’ve got the basics.

Sina Gilannejad: I’ve known my anatomy. Like you said. I know how [01:06:00] to stop things when they go wrong. And and all my consultants were saying the same thing. They said, you know, you’re the [01:06:05] person that should be doing implants. You know, you’ve done the max stock’s trading. If you [01:06:10] just do the chorus then that’s it.

Payman Langroudi: Like why are you all in on implants.

Sina Gilannejad: I should and you [01:06:15] know what?

Payman Langroudi: I’m stopping you.

Sina Gilannejad: I don’t know if I like implants, I just.

Payman Langroudi: What do you.

Sina Gilannejad: Mean I don’t know. I, I. [01:06:20]

Payman Langroudi: Listen, I don’t like implants and I do like, uh, what, what? [01:06:25]

Sina Gilannejad: I don’t know, that’s the thing.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what.

Sina Gilannejad: I that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Not. Listen, you like whatever you’re very [01:06:30] good at. Yeah, yeah. You don’t like implants because you don’t have implants. Yeah, but you’re nowhere [01:06:35] near like you. That that same, that same sort of, um, you know, they say do difficult [01:06:40] things and comfort zone. That same comfort zone that you jumped out of to do your oral surgery [01:06:45] is now implants and you have to like implants is such a big subject [01:06:50] here that you have to keep on doing that, keep on doing that. Five years, not really [01:06:55] very long. No, no. Yeah. But accelerate like like go all in, [01:07:00] go all in on it.

Sina Gilannejad: That makes sense. And obviously I.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever you go all in on, you’ll enjoy. Yeah, [01:07:05] yeah. And implants happen to be something that like, make a massive difference to people’s [01:07:10] lives. Yeah. Yeah. There aren’t enough implantologists in the.

Sina Gilannejad: Uk, and it’s becoming more of an expectation [01:07:15] that every dentist should or every practice at least should have someone that does implants.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:07:20]

Sina Gilannejad: So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There’s massive cash in it.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what I, what I, what I do worry [01:07:25] about for implantologists is the risks are high. Yeah. And, and someone like you who [01:07:30] suffers anxiety with risk. But you’ve been, you’ve been through that with oral surgery. Yeah. But but [01:07:35] but the risks are high. I mean, that’s.

Sina Gilannejad: What I’m worried.

Payman Langroudi: About. The next day you’ve got a big case. [01:07:40] Yeah. Tonight you can’t sleep late. Stuff like stuff like [01:07:45] that.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. But in saying that, like booking myself impacted wisdom teeth still gives [01:07:50] me the same, like maybe some of the sun. Yeah. The thrill. Now it’s a thrill rather than an anxiety. [01:07:55] And I can’t sleep the night before. And the more I do, the more I sleep, so I know I can get through it. So it [01:08:00] is definitely something I should think is the next step.

Payman Langroudi: But for someone like you, someone who’s been through the steps you’ve been [01:08:05] through. Yeah. Yeah. And do you notice what I’m saying about like, I’m not telling you to go [01:08:10] manufacture implants, which is what I did.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But for someone like you. Yeah. [01:08:15] By the way, do anything but do dive heavily, deeply [01:08:20] into 100 practices. If you want to do that and dive deeply into [01:08:25] perio, if you want to do that, but dive heavily, deeply in like there’s no excuse [01:08:30] now. Yeah. You’ve done DCT. You’ve done some general practice deciding [01:08:35] which one of these you like or not. Come on man.

Sina Gilannejad: I think that’s exactly [01:08:40] the point that I’m at. I’m. Pick one. I’m scared. I’m scared of the commitment. And and that’s. And that’s honestly [01:08:45] the truth.

Payman Langroudi: But you’re not scared of committing. You just got married. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: That’s the easiest decision [01:08:50] I’ve ever made.

Payman Langroudi: Old. Were you when you got married?

Sina Gilannejad: I was, I, uh, last year. Last year, 27. [01:08:55] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Young. Young.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. I think especially in this day and age, definitely [01:09:00] young.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t some of your friends or parents or whatever tell you, hey, bit young?

Sina Gilannejad: Well, my friends in Northern [01:09:05] Ireland, you either get pregnant at 16 or then you get married at 20. You know something? [01:09:10] So, um, it’s all about, uh, relatively, isn’t [01:09:15] it? But, um, they when when [01:09:20] you marry the person that I did, as soon as they met her, they understood.

Payman Langroudi: I love you, [01:09:25] I love you, I get it, I get it, but, but what I’m after [01:09:30] is like the I remember getting married. Yeah. I remember thinking it’s a big step. [01:09:35] It’s a big, big step.

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, yeah. Massive.

Payman Langroudi: You know, not not I don’t mean the wedding. [01:09:40] No being married.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Big step. And I was on this like delay as long as possible [01:09:45] moment in my life. But but you seem to like the opposite. Like jump in, [01:09:50] I think.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. I think I’m an all [01:09:55] or nothing person. And I think that, like you were saying, it’s a benefit and it’s a it’s a big negative as well. Um, [01:10:00] it means that right now I, I need to go all in or nothing into something. Implants make sense, but I’m like, well, [01:10:05] what if what if I can’t do this stuff anymore? But but I’m very much going towards what [01:10:10] you said for sure. And it’s been heavy on my mind. But when it comes to marrying [01:10:15] man, I don’t know if she’s gonna kill me for talking about it so much, but it was such an [01:10:20] easy decision. Like she understood me instantly as [01:10:25] a person and understood things about me that I didn’t understand about myself.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. And [01:10:30] and aside from that, the people that she’s brought into my life, her friends, [01:10:35] her family has only been even better. Uh, [01:10:40] you know, I probably would have never met you. That’s true for her. And, um, you know, [01:10:45] her, her, all her immediate friends, her closest friends are now my friends. Um, [01:10:50] and it, it was an easy decision to make, and it was very quick [01:10:55] to see that it was the right decision. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about going [01:11:00] forward.

Sina Gilannejad: Going forward, it’s a scary topic. That’s the thing I’m most scared about.

Payman Langroudi: Do [01:11:05] you want kids?

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, eventually.

Payman Langroudi: Do you want to maybe [01:11:10] open a practice? Like there’s two of you two dentists.

Sina Gilannejad: I’m scared to open a practice [01:11:15] because.

Payman Langroudi: It might make sense to dentists.

Sina Gilannejad: It makes so much sense, and. But I don’t know. Is [01:11:20] the money there? Is it as profitable as it used to be? A lot of people say it’s not.

Payman Langroudi: Not not like it [01:11:25] used to be.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. Well, nothing’s really as profitable, is it. That’s true. But if it’s profitable, fine. But my [01:11:30] biggest concern is that I really enjoy or the kind of [01:11:35] person I am. Everything that I’ve said so far, a 9 to 5 suits me really well, because at 5:00, [01:11:40] I shut off. I don’t have to worry about anything else. I’ve got patients the next day.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:11:45] the thing is, you could you could land on your feet. I mean, there are some practices where the associates [01:11:50] are just so super happy, so super happy. It’s possible. But the best way, [01:11:55] the best execution of of the long term associate is what we call the super [01:12:00] associate, right? And the super associate comes with a bunch of Instagram like [01:12:05] marketing.

Sina Gilannejad: So loads of places are looking for how many followers you have now. Yeah, that’s a requirement [01:12:10] that’s on your marketing.

Payman Langroudi: Like it’s a real thing. Because if you, if you can, if you can bring the patience [01:12:15] because you’re marketing so good. Yeah. Then you can walk into any practice.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, 100% and they’ll make room [01:12:20] for you.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely. And it makes sense for them to make room for you. And you can negotiate terms and all that. And [01:12:25] that’s one of the best lies in the whole wide world. Yeah. Of course it means learning Instagram. Yeah. And [01:12:30] you need to like with that. If you’re saying that’s the guy you want to be the long term [01:12:35] associate, you need to look at Instagram, social media as [01:12:40] a skill, just like you look at, you know, wisdom teeth as a skill.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. And that’s the biggest I’ve [01:12:45] been so busy with the max factor, with the marriage, with settling into.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve been busy. [01:12:50]

Sina Gilannejad: I’ve been busy, man. We’ve been talking about it. Well, we were coming. We were we were trying to have this discussion [01:12:55] two years ago. That’s right, that’s right. And finally made some space for it. Even though I was [01:13:00] trying the whole time and, um, I, I, I want [01:13:05] a, we all want a full life and I don’t want to be stuck in work the [01:13:10] whole time. So I want to invest in, uh, probably, like you said, narrow my clinical [01:13:15] field of practice, invest in something else that can make money whilst I’m [01:13:20] not there and, and have that form.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of thing is that?

Sina Gilannejad: I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: I have because [01:13:25] it’s the worst thing about being a dentist. Yeah. There’s many good things about being a dentist, but the worst thing [01:13:30] about being a dentist is that you kind of you can’t you can’t sort of be sit in Bali and [01:13:35] be and be a dentist.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What are you thinking about [01:13:40] that? Have you thought anything about that?

Sina Gilannejad: I’ve thought of anything and everything, and a lot of it has been like [01:13:45] social media based and the platform I loved the podcast I did with Adam. [01:13:50] I, it just, it was so hard to fit it in with everything else. And it’s still hard. I’m not [01:13:55] saying my life’s got any quieter? I’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Just wait till you have kids, man. [01:14:00] That’ll change. That’ll change the game.

Sina Gilannejad: What you think? Get even busier.

Payman Langroudi: Much busier.

Sina Gilannejad: Well, I can’t. [01:14:05] I can barely do this, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But listen, when you’ve had. Let’s say you’ve got two kids. Yeah. [01:14:10] How many friends do the two kids have? Yeah, generally. Yeah. They’re [01:14:15] in a class of 15 kids. Yeah. Yeah. Then that those 15 kids have [01:14:20] birthdays? Yeah. That’s 30 birthdays a year.

Sina Gilannejad: I don’t like [01:14:25] this math.

Payman Langroudi: 30 birthdays a year that you have to attend. Yeah. And sometimes [01:14:30] on the same weekend, Manitoba will be with one kid at a birthday. And you’ll be with a different kid at a different [01:14:35] birthday where you don’t know one. Yeah. That’s just the birthdays. That’s. That’s [01:14:40] 30 out of 52 weekends. You’re at a birthday party? Yeah. Let alone everything else. [01:14:45] It’s hard. Yeah. It’s hard. By the way, it’s amazing also.

Sina Gilannejad: And that’s what I’ve heard also. And [01:14:50] you know what, Max? Fax again. I’ll I’m sure like my [01:14:55] nurses and everyone’s so sick of me talking about it to them or to patients. But it was life [01:15:00] changing. I was so scared of doing the wrong thing.

Payman Langroudi: Just made him out of you, [01:15:05] huh? Huh? It honestly did.

Sina Gilannejad: It did. And and, you know, like people. What? [01:15:10] Like people are scared for Max for the on call, but you everyone gets used [01:15:15] to it if you don’t leave. All right? And and you end [01:15:20] up with this confidence of that. Okay. What is the worst thing that can happen in a practice? [01:15:25] Someone has a heart attack. Cpr when you work in a hospital long enough, you know, in hospital CPR rates, [01:15:30] you know, if you give someone CPR, they’re most likely going to die in a practice way more likely to die [01:15:35] on the street, probably dead. So you know that actually the worst case scenario, you’re doing the best thing you can do, like you’ve seen it. [01:15:40] So that’s nice. The other worst thing that they’ll bleed, you can stop the bleeding now. If you can’t, it’s something [01:15:45] crazy. And then the hospital again, you’ve done what you can. So and then all of a sudden. It [01:15:50] it it it puts you face to [01:15:55] face with humanity. And that’s all because there are people that have been stripped bare. They’ve [01:16:00] got cancer. You’re seeing them as a what was I like [01:16:05] a two, three year old qualified dentist. And I thought the worst [01:16:10] thing would be to tell a patient, oh, you’ve.

Sina Gilannejad: I’m sorry, but this is [01:16:15] cancer. You’ve got cancer. And the worst thing actually, by far [01:16:20] was sitting there and I cried so much last year and my [01:16:25] mum and my wife said the general concern, rightful concern, saying are you sure this is for you [01:16:30] because you’re very emotional, soft. At the end of the day, this this is going to hit you really hard. And I said, I, [01:16:35] I need, I need to to feel it. And [01:16:40] I felt it. And, and I was sitting there and the daughter [01:16:45] of this patient, the patient, she had tumour after [01:16:50] tumour, cancer after cancer in her the mouth. There was nothing left to cut. And so at one [01:16:55] point the consultant and he was a Mr.. Or is is is his name. He was [01:17:00] Northern Irish as well. Bless him. So was a, you know, piece of home. And he’s one [01:17:05] of the best men I’ve ever met and one of the best surgeons I’ll ever meet. And [01:17:10] he said to her, and he had an amazing way of communication. And my communication is talking enough until [01:17:15] I’ve said the right thing. His communication was always saying the right thing.

Payman Langroudi: On point.

Sina Gilannejad: On point, [01:17:20] and leaving the silence for the conversation to continue. And he said to this patient, he said, she [01:17:25] said, first, I don’t know if I can do any more. I don’t know if I can have [01:17:30] any more treatment. And he said, I don’t know if I can do any more treatment for you either. [01:17:35] I don’t want to cut you anymore. And then and then he went, [01:17:40] and I was there with her and her daughter and her daughter’s sobbing in tears. And she looks at [01:17:45] me like, look, I get it. Like on the way here, we already came to terms with [01:17:50] the decision. And we know like, this is it. She’s going to die. We know. [01:17:55] We don’t know when she’s going to die, but can you tell me how she’s going to die? And [01:18:00] I looked the mom was she she made her peace, [01:18:05] but the daughter hadn’t understandably. And looking [01:18:10] into her eyes and. And I said to her, I said, look, I, I, [01:18:15] I don’t know if I can describe that for you. I don’t think it’s [01:18:20] fair. And she said, I understand, just please, I need to [01:18:25] know. And sitting there and looking at her and saying, well, there’s so many different ways. If [01:18:30] you’re lucky, your, your mom will just waste away and just lights [01:18:35] go off. Or the [01:18:40] tumour will block her windpipe and she’ll suffocate or she’ll have the [01:18:45] tumour will eat away at one of the major arteries and bleed everywhere. And that [01:18:50] was I. God, I couldn’t stop crying that day. And the next day I just sat with the [01:18:55] consultant outside and we had a little four year that we had. It was a lovely sunny day in [01:19:00] Chesterfield. And, and I just, and I just, I just asked him, I was like, I just felt like I was going crazy.

Sina Gilannejad: And I said, there’s [01:19:05] this job just ever get too much for you? And he just looked at me and he was like, man, [01:19:10] I’m like, my patients die. Yeah, it’s a lot. It’s so much. But you [01:19:15] know, I’ve got to remember the ones that I can help and that I have helped. And even those that died, [01:19:20] I helped them along the way. And, uh, and at that point, I was like, that [01:19:25] kind of me being so worried about a stupid crime prep just doesn’t matter anymore. And [01:19:30] at that point, that was it. Then I got married and I said, this is all I want to focus on. I just, you know, anything [01:19:35] else can come. And I need to remind myself so many times of just thinking of that story again, has reminded [01:19:40] me all these stresses and stuff that I have about going forward and what am I going to do? And this was like, at least I, I’ve, I’ve [01:19:45] got a life. My parents worked so hard to let me [01:19:50] do dentistry. You know, they didn’t have any chances to do it. They gave me the chance. I got to do it. [01:19:55] I’m living in London, uh, in a city where so [01:20:00] many people across the world want to come and live. And I’m saying, oh, the rent is high and this [01:20:05] and that, but I’m here, I’m living, and I’m paying the rent. And and I’m so grateful. So [01:20:10] it’s nice to take a step back and just take the pressure off myself in terms of what’s to come next. [01:20:15] But that’s why I think positive or negative, [01:20:20] Max will have such a, a strong impact [01:20:25] on you for the better.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a deep cut. It’s a deep cut, deep [01:20:30] cut. But thanks for sharing that man. That must can’t have been easy to.

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, man. But you’ve [01:20:35] been there as well. You know it as well. It’s it’s these these final moments when people [01:20:40] have nothing. You realise actually what’s actually important.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:20:45] met my first night of Maxfacts. [01:20:50] The patient passed away. Jeez. They operated on that day. Jeez. And [01:20:55] it was a new consultant as well. So he, you know, he had that nightmare [01:21:00] and I, I, I didn’t it was my first night. [01:21:05] I had no idea what to do next. I was a dental student and first night [01:21:10] and I didn’t write it in the notes because I didn’t know I was a patient [01:21:15] died.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, I wouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: The next day. The next day, consultant said, right, give give me the [01:21:20] notes. And obviously he was having a hard day himself. Right. He just arrived. It was like the first operation [01:21:25] he’d done. And he goes, it’s not in the notes. The patient passed [01:21:30] away.

Sina Gilannejad: I thought you knew.

Payman Langroudi: Who was on call. I was like, sticking [01:21:35] my hand and he screamed through [01:21:40] the notes, and I can’t blame him. Right? But that was my first night. It [01:21:45] was hard, but.

Sina Gilannejad: It’s not something you would think like first.

Payman Langroudi: Like you.

Sina Gilannejad: Said. Yeah, like surely [01:21:50] you haven’t record the Fish is dead. Why do I have to say in the notes like patient is not moving when I poke them? Yeah. But [01:21:55] yeah, man, that’s the so the future is probably [01:22:00] at another crossroads.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to the darker part.

Sina Gilannejad: That wasn’t the dark part.

Payman Langroudi: The dark. [01:22:05]

Sina Gilannejad: Part.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, the dark part of this pod is around errors. Mistakes?

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What mistakes [01:22:10] have you made and what, what can we all learn from your mistakes? From black box thinking. [01:22:15] You know about black box thinking. No I don’t. Black box thing is about plane crashes. Oh, compared [01:22:20] to medical errors where planes crash, they discuss, they find out what happened [01:22:25] in the black box. Then they tell the whole pilot community what happened. So everyone learns. Whereas [01:22:30] in medical we’re trying to find who was at fault. And so for that reason, we all hide [01:22:35] our mistakes. Yeah. So we never learn from each other’s mistakes. And even though I [01:22:40] acknowledged that in the end, you learn from your own mistakes because they they they strike [01:22:45] deeper. Yeah. To buck that trend. I want you to sort of come up with errors you’ve [01:22:50] made that the rest of us can learn from. So so so I don’t want a one day I dropped something [01:22:55] and yeah, you know.

Sina Gilannejad: I, I’ll give you two things. I’ll give you a clinical one and, [01:23:00] uh.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, cool.

Sina Gilannejad: Look one. Yeah. First the outlook one. And [01:23:05] I’m sure everyone knows this, but doesn’t practice it. Do not put [01:23:10] your self worth into a tooth. It’s so unpredictable, so interesting. [01:23:15] It’s so unpredictable. And honestly, like, it sounds stupid saying it, but if you’ve done [01:23:20] a deep filling, that tooth loses vitality. Uh, so many of us and me, [01:23:25] I was like, oh, well, that is, um, that means I’m a bad dentist, which means I’m a bad person. That was [01:23:30] it. And it sounds so stupid to say that’s one thing. Do not put your self worth in this. I was [01:23:35] going to say in this job, but obviously you can be proud of who you are and as you should be. You work very hard to get [01:23:40] here. But do not put your self-worth.

Payman Langroudi: Self-worth only in this job.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, 100%. [01:23:45] Do not do that. Biggest clinical mistake. I’m [01:23:50] trying to think of which one to tell you. I’ve made many, [01:23:55] as we all have. And that’s what happens whenever you step out of the comfort zone. [01:24:00] Um, I think I would have to be, uh, [01:24:05] drilling the cheek. Oh, yeah. So, um, if you’re doing a surgical extraction [01:24:10] or just drilling weight, it’s very easy to get super focussed [01:24:15] on the tip of your drill and not remember what’s around you. And then all of a sudden you got a big buccal fat pad [01:24:20] just wrapping its way around your drill.

Payman Langroudi: Loads of bleeding.

Sina Gilannejad: Lots [01:24:25] of bleeding. If you’re lucky enough, the drill is going fast enough. It cauterises at the same moment. So you’ve done a little gingivectomy [01:24:30] of the well, you’ve got buccal mucosa. Ectomy. Yeah. Um, so that’s not good. [01:24:35] So be aware of your surroundings. For example, if you’re doing a surgical for the first [01:24:40] time, don’t do it with your lips on. You might have used your lips for donkeys, but you’re still not going [01:24:45] to see that cheek.

Payman Langroudi: That’s for this reason, your field of view.

Sina Gilannejad: Absolutely. For this reason. And another main [01:24:50] one is and again, done it. And I’ve had friends that have done it. Many people will keep doing [01:24:55] it. Uh, just be careful of the floor of the mouth because someone will swallow it comes up, wraps around [01:25:00] you. That really wraps around your bro. You can’t cauterise that one. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I like it, but not a lot. [01:25:05] What the the the error.

Sina Gilannejad: Okay, let me think what you want something worse.

Payman Langroudi: Just more, uh, [01:25:10] worse or better. I like it, but not a lot. Okay.

Sina Gilannejad: Fine. Uh, [01:25:15] in a hospital setting.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Uh, saw a patient. They had a swelling. I [01:25:20] forgot to look at the background and forgot that this was a hospital. And [01:25:25] the swelling doesn’t always just mean antibiotics. You got to do bloods, you got to check, and you got to check for signs of sepsis and things like that, [01:25:30] which I didn’t do. And then the patient came back two days later in A&E on a drip [01:25:35] or on the verge of not having sepsis, so that was really [01:25:40] bad. Overlooked a lot of signs and the learning outcome [01:25:45] there was just calm down. Remember your environment and [01:25:50] just if you have a set protocol to look at for each patient, you [01:25:55] won’t forget it. And that is a massive thing that actually in the dental community we’re taught by [01:26:00] pilots, aren’t we? Yeah. A lot more of them are coming and teaching us, uh, this, uh, root [01:26:05] cause analysis and how to set up protocols so you do not make the same mistake. And [01:26:10] one of the most common mistakes we get is what leads to sharps injuries is that you treat the [01:26:15] patient and you see the patient has a, what a, let’s say a blood marker like HIV. [01:26:20] And then all of a sudden, because you’ve seen that you start acting differently. That is the main reason why protocols exist. Protocols [01:26:25] exist so that you’re acting the same way for every patient as you would for that patient. But then you start doing [01:26:30] that for every other patient, and then all of a sudden you see a positive patient and you start acting differently. And [01:26:35] all of a sudden the needle is not where you usually left it and you didn’t know, you always left it there, but you’ve done something different [01:26:40] and then you get a sharps injury that is so common. I’ve seen that so many times. [01:26:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I like that one more. I like that one more. What comes to mind if I say, what’s your [01:26:50] favourite lecture or lecture that really stood out for you?

Sina Gilannejad: Is [01:26:55] it is it bad to say one that I did?

Payman Langroudi: I probably [01:27:00] won’t accept it, but go on. Fair enough. Go on. No, no, but go on.

Sina Gilannejad: I did a lecture in Cardiff. I did [01:27:05] two lectures. I did one for oral medicine and it was an absolute intensive lecture [01:27:10] of all the stuff, uh, in oral medicine that’s going to be on the exams.

Payman Langroudi: For [01:27:15] the students.

Sina Gilannejad: For the students. Yeah. And it was, it [01:27:20] was I’d done teaching before that, but after I did that, I left and I felt I [01:27:25] could do this for the rest of my life. I absolutely love that. The thrill of [01:27:30] just the public speaking, The. The anxiety of [01:27:35] it became the thrill of it and the, you know, the absolute attention I had of everyone [01:27:40] and being in their place. So when they asked a question, I was like, oh, let me explain it to you in a way that I [01:27:45] understood it, to see if you understood it that way and the feedback you get from that and that it thankfully went well. [01:27:50] And it was my first.

Payman Langroudi: Teachings, great teachings. Great. The problem with teaching is it’s difficult [01:27:55] to make money teaching. Yeah. It’s, you know, as a career. Um, [01:28:00] but it’s great man. Um, by the way, you can make loads of money [01:28:05] teaching if you play it right. If you, if yeah, if you’re amazing.

Sina Gilannejad: Sell of.

Payman Langroudi: Course, but it’s [01:28:10] tough. It’s not easy. It’s much easier making money doing dentistry than, than teaching teaching.

Sina Gilannejad: Then that’s [01:28:15] the thing I kept finding. There’s actually all these loopholes to find so much easier just to do dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:28:20] about what stands out to you? Like the best lecture you went to?

Sina Gilannejad: Best lecture.

Payman Langroudi: I went to one that [01:28:25] stands out to you, one that inspired you, maybe.

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, [01:28:30] inspired me was the one that inspired me to do Max. [01:28:35] Max. I was at a conference. Uh, it was a Welsh [01:28:40] hospitals, all Wales hospitals. Something was called. I can’t remember what it was. It was all the Welsh hospitals. [01:28:45] And they were showing um, a case where basically [01:28:50] it was a cancer in the base of the tongue. So if you’ve got a really bad cancer base of the tongue, you either [01:28:55] have to do a subtotal or total glossectomy, which effectively means cut out part of the tongue [01:29:00] or all of the tongue. Grim. You can, you can already think of the massive [01:29:05] impact to your life. You can’t talk, you can’t eat. You can’t swallow properly. [01:29:10] Hell, just losing your voice alone, you know, it’s like a little mermaid. Except [01:29:15] so much worse. And, um, the surgery, you’d have to get that rather than [01:29:20] going into the mouth and cutting it out, you’d actually have to go underneath, drop everything, cut [01:29:25] it out, stitch it back up. So that was extremely invasive in itself, even though you’ve taken the tongue out. Um, [01:29:30] but actually this one was the innovations that we’re having. And it was a little robot that can go to the back of the tongue [01:29:35] and laser it off, which was pretty cool, but that just kickstarted the, [01:29:40] the whole like.

Payman Langroudi: Fascination.

Sina Gilannejad: Fascination towards Max Fox that.

Payman Langroudi: And who gave that lecture? [01:29:45] Do you remember?

Sina Gilannejad: It was she was a lead [01:29:50] consultant in Scotland, maybe Glasgow, and she was a fantastic [01:29:55] speaker.

Payman Langroudi: We don’t know her name.

Sina Gilannejad: No, I don’t know her name. I’m not good with names, but [01:30:00] I remember her face. She was fantastic. Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Did you love Cardiff, by the way?

Sina Gilannejad: I loved. [01:30:05]

Payman Langroudi: It.

Sina Gilannejad: Such a good city. I’ve been so lucky, you know, being [01:30:10] in Bristol, then Manchester, then Cardiff. Bristol.

Payman Langroudi: Good places.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, Cardiff. So [01:30:15] good. The people are so lovely. Amazing, amazing. The patients are amazing. The clinicians [01:30:20] are amazing. The. I love the accent.

Payman Langroudi: I think that whole thing about the way you said in Northern Ireland, everyone [01:30:25] wants to talk to you. Yeah. Same same in Cardiff.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. You go for a walk. You’re going to have a conversation, [01:30:30] a 30 minute conversation. And it’s it’s amazing, I loved it. I made such [01:30:35] good friends in Cardiff, which was a massive, again, part of my healing process because it was so social. [01:30:40] We had, we had tons of so in, in, in Maxfax I was one of two ducts, [01:30:45] whereas in Cardiff I was one of, I think like 15 plus and we were all friends. We were all friends, had [01:30:50] a great time and you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, there’s a, there’s a size of city that, that is so fun [01:30:55] because the size of city that Cardiff or Bristol are Manchester obviously bigger, but Cardiff [01:31:00] and Bristol are. You can pretty much get everything. Yeah. It’s compressed. Let’s [01:31:05] say one day you want, I don’t know, Wagyu steak.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You can pretty much [01:31:10] find wagyu steak in Cardiff or Bristol or you are, I don’t know whatever [01:31:15] it is. Yeah. Yeah. You can find pretty much. Oh I don’t know. You want to go to a concert. [01:31:20] Oh yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: That was good Theatre.

Payman Langroudi: Stadium they’ve got there. Or you want to go to a sports thing. Yeah, [01:31:25] there is all that. But then it’s also small enough that parking [01:31:30] and traffic and all of that isn’t a big deal. But what I loved [01:31:35] about it, especially as a student, was you keep bumping into people [01:31:40] in the street.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which never happens in London. No, no. If you bump into someone, it’s like, let’s [01:31:45] have lunch or something.

Sina Gilannejad: It’s crazy because you bump into someone in London, you’re like, this world is tiny. [01:31:50] But like you said, it’s a normal occurrence in Bristol, Cardiff and things like that. And Cardiff, like you said, [01:31:55] I went to the theatre, I went to the Six Nations rugby games. Cardiff [01:32:00] has for some reason, the one of the best sushi restaurants I’ve ever been at. I love the sushi, everything. [01:32:05] It’s got everything.

Payman Langroudi: Like, uh, AP watch. Like you want to buy a [01:32:10] £100,000 watch. You can buy it.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah, it’s everywhere.

Payman Langroudi: Like it didn’t, by [01:32:15] the way, when I was there, it didn’t have that.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah. Different times. Yeah. [01:32:20] But I love Cardiff and it would definitely suck leaving there. I [01:32:25] had a really good time. Sheffield. Great place as well.

Payman Langroudi: Big student city right.

Sina Gilannejad: Massive student [01:32:30] city. Very even more students. Way more. Way more surprisingly. So it’s got like a really [01:32:35] old miners like actually like they were mining community. So [01:32:40] your whole, you know, Sheffield Steel, you hear all about stuff that obviously that’s not nationalised anymore because that would make too much [01:32:45] sense. Yeah. They sell that all abroad and, and, and then there’s no in between. [01:32:50] And then there’s students. There’s tons of them.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s a big population there as well. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: It’s massive. You [01:32:55] don’t realise it feels small.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Because the city centre is pretty small.

Payman Langroudi: Really small. We got this [01:33:00] map. It was like a map that supermarkets use to figure out where to put the next supermarket. [01:33:05] Oh, cool. Because we were putting, um, we have this thing called regional centre of Excellence [01:33:10] one per region. Ah. And we were trying to figure out what is a region. And then [01:33:15] so it’s a population density map, right. And Sheffield’s got the two places [01:33:20] that surprised the hell out of me. Sheffield and Leicester.

Sina Gilannejad: Really interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Population density. [01:33:25]

Sina Gilannejad: Interesting.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s like some I knew about Glasgow, for instance. Like it’s not Edinburgh, Glasgow, [01:33:30] Glasgow where the population is. But I kind of knew that. But I didn’t know Sheffield and Leicester had such [01:33:35] huge population density like that either.

Sina Gilannejad: But and you don’t feel it when you’re there. You’re not in like massive [01:33:40] obviously just traffic in every city. It’s not crazy in.

Payman Langroudi: The the area. [01:33:45] It’s not just exactly.

Sina Gilannejad: There’s actually a big outskirts to it. And obviously then you’ve got like the peaks [01:33:50] and everything like that. And that’s another.

Payman Langroudi: Super.

Sina Gilannejad: Beautiful, gorgeous place. Honestly, if [01:33:55] you want to be proud of where you live, you got to go there where the peaks are and everything, not where all [01:34:00] the flags are in the cities.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your favourite resource to [01:34:05] learn about dentistry? Is there a book? Is there a website? Is there a Instagram page, [01:34:10] a YouTube channel?

Sina Gilannejad: I enjoy all the series of the [01:34:15] The Good Clinicians Guide. Was it the good practitioners? They’ve got loads of those things like the Good Practitioners [01:34:20] Guide to Prosthetics, to end though. It’s got all those. They were amazing. And they’re all.

Payman Langroudi: What is that?

Sina Gilannejad: Books. [01:34:25] They’re all books. They’re all books and they’re all available. Uh, it’s not a sponsor. Um, but they’re on the BDA [01:34:30] library. A lot of people have a BDA membership, so they’re all in the library digital and it breaks things [01:34:35] so well, um, for a student dentistry in nutshell was fantastic. Um, [01:34:40] I didn’t use it, I didn’t buy it because I was so broke, even though it was a reasonable price, unbelievably [01:34:45] broke. But um, I used my friends and it was such a good resource and something I [01:34:50] really love and I’m trying to remember the name of it. It was a book that had hundreds of cases. [01:34:55] It’s like Cornell’s or something. I need to find that and [01:35:00] put it in because it’s so good. It literally each, each, every two pages is [01:35:05] a case. And it could be oral med oral surgery, uh, restorative. It was so good [01:35:10] to test yourself because when it comes to finals, the units are just going to test you to see if you’re a safe dentist, if you [01:35:15] can look at this and pick out the important things. And that was perfect for that. It would you would look at the case. It would [01:35:20] give you all the information on the pictures and then it would tell you, um, how to break it down [01:35:25] and what all the things were and then how to treatment plan it. So good. That was fantastic.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:35:30] about doing DCT? Did they pay for you to go on courses?

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, DCT [01:35:35] another reason if you want to go on DCT is the amount of free courses [01:35:40] you go on. So um, first of all in Cardiff. So it changes as you [01:35:45] go up these days you tend to do less study days in DCT one most not I think it’s like [01:35:50] 50 that you’ve got loads of study days made for you. Cardiff was phenomenal for that. [01:35:55] We had only consultants teaching us and they like it was intensive [01:36:00] days. For each week we’d have intensive day of just a full lecture on this, that and whatever.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:36:05] they made their own sort of they made their own.

Sina Gilannejad: Absolutely. They made their own curriculum. Oh, interesting. And it was fantastic. We [01:36:10] learned everything from the best people and that was great. And then you get a study budget as well, not a DCT [01:36:15] one because they put oh well in Cardiff anyway. Sorry because they put so many programs on. You only had a small [01:36:20] budget, but I got to use it to fly to. Was it. Where did it go? Glasgow, I think it was Glasgow. [01:36:25] I went for an oral medicine conference and got to do it. Loads of people went to restorative conferences, [01:36:30] oral surgery, all that. Um in DC D two, I got fully funded to do [01:36:35] my sedation training and most DC places will do that for you. Even if you [01:36:40] take up a community job, they’ll probably pay it for you. And that’s like, it’s not cheap. It’s like well over a thousand. [01:36:45]

Payman Langroudi: And a great thing to have under your belt for.

Sina Gilannejad: Massive thing. And then, and well, the thing.

Payman Langroudi: That’s got you the job in. [01:36:50] Yeah, yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, the course itself is fine. Yeah. It’s expensive [01:36:55] 2000 something. But then if you don’t have a hospital setting to, uh, or a mentor [01:37:00] to actually do the cases, you need to get qualified, that becomes quite expensive very quickly if you’ve got to pay [01:37:05] the course provider to do those cases. So yeah, you get loads out of it in that. [01:37:10] And it’s, it’s only one two year. If you did the first year, you don’t like it, don’t do it again.

Payman Langroudi: If there was if there was no [01:37:15] time or money Constraints. Firstly, what course would you jump [01:37:20] straight into?

Sina Gilannejad: Uh, I do the, uh, the London Oral surgeons [01:37:25] extraction courses. He does, uh, normal ones and uh, as [01:37:30] a normal teeth and wisdom teeth, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Is that his Instagram name? The London. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: London [01:37:35] oral surgeon in insane quality, insane. Like he take [01:37:40] the clinical photos he takes of each stage of like a surgical extraction is [01:37:45] insane. I’m like, where’s the blood? Where’s it gone? And it’s so beautiful. And I can’t even well, I can [01:37:50] now, but I struggle to take a good anterior photograph. And he’s all the way in the back of the [01:37:55] mouth there taking his beautiful photos. So I’d, I’d do that.

Payman Langroudi: I do he’s got a [01:38:00] course. Does he.

Sina Gilannejad: He does. Yes. Yeah. He has got, he’s got courses. Um I think they’re all fully booked now. [01:38:05] Um I do that do implants. If money wasn’t an issue for sure implants would be [01:38:10] done by now. Um and then I would It really [01:38:15] get into the digital side of dentistry. I really would like [01:38:20] to have, um, to, to know and learn how to use [01:38:25] the software to like model all these things to do provisionals, things like that. And then [01:38:30] the 3D printer to print whatever I want, like exocad. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: And then I’d probably make some [01:38:35] grills I sell.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s that’s good man. That’s just [01:38:40] a lot of skills you want. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Maybe money and motivation to [01:38:45] actually implement everything that I’ve learned.

Payman Langroudi: Final questions please. Fantasy [01:38:50] dinner party.

Sina Gilannejad: Fantasy dinner party.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests, three guests. [01:38:55] Dead or alive.

Sina Gilannejad: Ooh. Uh, I mean, I’m [01:39:00] always gonna. There’s always going to be a cop out, but I would, uh, my [01:39:05] granny that’s in Iran, she’d be with me.

Payman Langroudi: That [01:39:10] your mum’s mum?

Sina Gilannejad: Mum, mum, mum! My mum’s mum. I’d [01:39:15] have her with me and she’s alive, thankfully. But I just don’t know when, if ever, [01:39:20] I’m gonna see her again. Uh. Neil [01:39:25] deGrasse Tyson.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I love [01:39:30] that astronomer guy.

Sina Gilannejad: I just love the passion that he speaks about space. That’s why [01:39:35] I did physics. I love the idea of space. The idea of there was this, uh, quote that he had. [01:39:40] He was like, someone asked him, what’s the, like the scariest thing about [01:39:45] space and what’s the best thing about space? And he was like, it’s the same thing. He said, we’re all made out of the same atoms, [01:39:50] um, as the stars. We’re all made out of carbon. Um, well, [01:39:55] carbon, nitrogen, oxygen. Um, and I’m missing one as well. Um, and [01:40:00] that means we’re all so alike, but at the same time, we’re the same material as stars that are [01:40:05] billions and billions and billions of light years away. We’re so insignificant. We’re [01:40:10] just the same as that little speck that’s over there. And that was a very comforting fact [01:40:15] because I was like, ah, this is such a tiny little planet. The grand scheme [01:40:20] of things, things don’t really matter.

Payman Langroudi: You know?

Sina Gilannejad: And I needed to feel that. So that’s two. And [01:40:25] the last one, dead or alive? Oh, [01:40:30] I probably do like something crazy, like a conspiracy theory to [01:40:35] find out, like what actually happened.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: So, you know, something crazy. [01:40:40] Like, if I don’t know, is it bad to say, like Madeleine McCann? That’s [01:40:45] what I know.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, herself.

Sina Gilannejad: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: How interesting.

Sina Gilannejad: Like [01:40:50] what happened?

Payman Langroudi: How interesting.

Sina Gilannejad: I hope she’s okay. I’d like to [01:40:55] think that she’s okay. And she’s got a lot of money.

Payman Langroudi: And who knows? Yeah. How interesting. I never had [01:41:00] that before. Mm. How interesting. I went on a different podcast and I told you the guy [01:41:05] said, oh no, it was, it wasn’t you. The guy said, the guy said, um, where would you like [01:41:10] to be A fly on the wall. Oh, oh.

Sina Gilannejad: I don’t know if I want anymore. Like [01:41:15] knowing, like seeing all these Epstein files and everything’s came out. I’m scared to to fight.

Payman Langroudi: But where would you like to [01:41:20] be? A fly on the wall.

Sina Gilannejad: Like.

Payman Langroudi: I’d.

Sina Gilannejad: Do you know what I would like? [01:41:25] I probably would be crazy. And so the fly on the wall, I’d like to be basically [01:41:30] all those hot mic situations, like in the limousine where the celebrity just [01:41:35] gets out from the thing or like just at the press conference as they leave, I want I want to hear that the big crash out for [01:41:40] like the living reporter said this and that stuff that’s. I’d like to do that. Yeah. What [01:41:45] about you?

Payman Langroudi: I well, my answer on that show was when they when they gave [01:41:50] the order to kill JFK. Oh. Like who? Like I want to.

Sina Gilannejad: See this is what.

Payman Langroudi: I mean on that one. Like [01:41:55] in that same conspiracy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then I thought, um, uh, you know, when the dinosaur [01:42:00] extinction event happened. True. Fly on the fly on the tree in. [01:42:05]

Sina Gilannejad: A very safe tree that’s still alive today. That’s true. Was it? Yeah. [01:42:10] Was it?

Payman Langroudi: What the hell went down?

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What did it look like? What it looked like. You know.

Sina Gilannejad: It’d be crazy. Yeah, that’d [01:42:15] be so true. That’d be good. But I wouldn’t have a dinosaur at the dinner party because that would be messy.

Payman Langroudi: No, that’s a different question.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. [01:42:20]

Payman Langroudi: Final. Final question. Uh, it’s a deathbed question. It’s a bit unfair. Someone [01:42:25] as young as you.

Sina Gilannejad: Well, yeah, hopefully it’s not too.

Payman Langroudi: Soon, but on your deathbed, surrounded [01:42:30] by your loved ones.

Sina Gilannejad: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Many years from now. Three pieces of advice.

Sina Gilannejad: Three [01:42:35] pieces of advice. Um. Uh, [01:42:40] again, it’s going to be things we hear all the time, but we just don’t put into actions. It’s, it’s [01:42:45] definitely going to be like, not to take things so seriously or [01:42:50] be a perfectionist about everything. Um. I’d [01:42:55] say as well to, [01:43:00] and I get told this all the time is focus. Focus [01:43:05] on the action, not the outcome for and and [01:43:10] the biggest thing for that is, you know, just do what you enjoy and the money will come afterwards. That’s the main thing. And, and you’ve [01:43:15] just got to believe it until it happens. And again, just be careful with that because you, you keep thinking, [01:43:20] when’s the money coming? When’s it coming? And then you look around you and you realise all your spending has gone up and everything you know, you’ve not, you’ve [01:43:25] not sort of that person that the money that you want keeps going up. And obviously [01:43:30] that’s inflation in general. But you can you can control some of that. And the last thing that [01:43:35] I would say on my deathbed. It [01:43:40] wouldn’t be advice. I’d love to be on my deathbed. And just to say that I had [01:43:45] a fantastic life and, you know, don’t waste [01:43:50] after today. Don’t waste any more tears for me. I, I want you to to live happy as well. [01:43:55] And I hope you only think about like the best times that we had together. Yeah. [01:44:00]

Payman Langroudi: That’s super nice.

Sina Gilannejad: Thanks. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I’ve had a lot of people sit over here. [01:44:05] Yeah. But, um, I think your guest 330. Nice. Yeah. Or [01:44:10] something like that. Um, but the, the thing I love about you, [01:44:15] you’ve got this authenticity, like you’re, you’re answering the question completely, [01:44:20] honestly. That’s sweet. You can see it in the, in your eyeball, you’re looking up or you’re [01:44:25] not, you know, you’re not even for a second trying to filter it. You’re just telling it.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. [01:44:30]

Payman Langroudi: Um, which is beautiful. It’s beautiful.

Sina Gilannejad: I take that with a lot of, of, [01:44:35] you know, I’m really grateful for that. Thank you. Payman. And that’s why we get on so well because.

Payman Langroudi: We’re a massive [01:44:40] pleasure, man. Thank you so much for doing this.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make [01:44:45] sure you tune in for future episodes, hit subscribe in iTunes or [01:44:50] Google Play or whatever platform it is. And you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you [01:44:55] would, um, give.

Payman Langroudi: Us a six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. That’s [01:45:00] what I always leave my Uber driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast comes to you from enlighten. Enlighten is an advanced teeth whitening system [00:00:05] that guarantees results on every single patient. We’ve treated hundreds of thousands of patients [00:00:10] now and have a really clear understanding of what it takes to get every patient to that delighted [00:00:15] state that we want to get to. If you want to understand teeth whitening in much further detail, join [00:00:20] us for online training. Only takes an hour. Completely free. Even if you never use [00:00:25] enlighten as a whitening system, you’ll learn loads and loads about whitening, how to talk about it, [00:00:30] how to involve your teams. Join us. Enlighten online training.com.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:40] podcast where you get to go one on one with [00:00:45] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Megan Chard onto the podcast. Megan, I’ve [00:01:00] known you. I was thinking about it today, at least a decade since you [00:01:05] qualified. Basically, I think I knew Simon, you’re a little bit famous husband maybe two [00:01:10] years before that. I knew since he was a student. And you’ve got an even more [00:01:15] famous aunt. Um, we’ll get to that. Um, lovely [00:01:20] to have you.

Meghan Chard: Thank you for having me. It’s a privilege. And, um. Yeah, [00:01:25] I’m happy to. I’m excited to have a chat and, uh, see where things go.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:01:30] tell me, Megan, you are principal of roughly. [00:01:35] How do you say it?

Meghan Chard: I know it’s a tricky one. Yeah. I think technically it’s roughly lodge, roughly [00:01:40] Lodge. It’s basically it’s named Rothley Lodge because Simon’s parents got married in a place called [00:01:45] Rothley Lodge in, um, Quorn up in sort of the East Midlands, whatever it [00:01:50] is, Leicestershire. And so when they bought the practice they called it that. And that’s why it’s called Rothley [00:01:55] Lodge, but it’s kind of spelled Rothley Lodge, and I think no one really knows how, how it’s meant to, you know.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:02:00] yeah, that was, that was Simon’s dad’s practice or parent’s practice. Yeah. And you guys bought that [00:02:05] in 20 1716.

Meghan Chard: That sort of eight years ago. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And expanded. [00:02:10]

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so I’m interested in all of that really. [00:02:15] So you know, your, your, your plans when, when you think back to [00:02:20] you qualified, how many years you were a dentist before you decided we’re going to [00:02:25] buy the practice? Yeah. Your plans there, all of that.

Meghan Chard: So [00:02:30] um, so Simon and I were trained together. So we’ve always sort of, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [00:02:35] go on. How did you meet? Go on, go on. I’ve heard it from Simon. I need to hear it from you.

Meghan Chard: Uh, so basically [00:02:40] I did the five year undergrad course and Simon did the four year [00:02:45] undergrad course. So he did pharmacology at Bristol first. So, you know, you can [00:02:50] do the, um, what’s it called? I don’t know, I can’t remember now too many years ago, but you can sort of bypass the first [00:02:55] year and coming to the second year. So that was my first year and I was like, there’s just [00:03:00] no one here for me. I’m not marrying a dentist. There’s no one here for me. I’m just gonna have a good time. [00:03:05] All good, you know, you know, whatever.

Payman Langroudi: So this is kings.

Meghan Chard: This is kings. Yeah. And so the [00:03:10] first day of the second year, um, I was, I went on the first day, didn’t make an effort, [00:03:15] you know, didn’t put my lenses in, just put my glasses on and you know, just went to the lecture just thinking [00:03:20] again, same, same crew, just first day of the second year, but [00:03:25] they did not tell us is that there’s a whole new cohort of fresh meat. And [00:03:30] I remember walking in and being like, oh my God, who are these? [00:03:35] Like, it was like, and it was like, there’s an excitement in the air. And I noticed Simon in the lecture [00:03:40] theatre, he was wearing a red hoodie and I thought, oh my God, Crikey.

Payman Langroudi: And the tallest guy in the room.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, [00:03:45] yeah, exactly. And even taller with his hair. His hair was quite spiky then. Yeah. And, [00:03:50] uh, and actually I was living in Chalk Farm at the time, so I was walking up Camden High Street and I was on the phone to my mum and I was like, oh [00:03:55] my God, mum, there are some hot people in my ear. It’s very exciting. So that’s kind of when I first sort [00:04:00] of saw him. And then that night was the truffle shuffle, which was this 80s night. So everyone got dressed [00:04:05] up. I looked like I’d fallen into a bag of clothes, like brightly coloured clothes. And we started [00:04:10] talking and we both liked electro music, talking about our like, favourite DJ’s and then sort [00:04:15] of just friends for a little while. And then, yeah, after a couple of months, one thing led to another and um, cheesy [00:04:20] saying, but the rest is history.

Payman Langroudi: But but I remember his version of events. He had a girlfriend at that [00:04:25] point. Oh, did you know this?

Meghan Chard: Um, not at first. Um, [00:04:30] not until.

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t tell.

Meghan Chard: You didn’t tell me at first. Uh, and then. Yeah, kind of, um. [00:04:35] Yeah, you find out in the end, don’t you? But um. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You were leaving it at that.

Meghan Chard: It [00:04:40] was, it was pretty much on its last legs anyway.

Payman Langroudi: So you know, that’s cool. [00:04:45]

Meghan Chard: It’s fine. We’re married now. It’s all good. It’s all.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Yeah, yeah. So. Okay. Yeah.

Meghan Chard: I [00:04:50] didn’t realise he told you that bit. So you’ve just caught me a bit, you know, in the spotlight.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:04:55] then what? You okay? You went out. I remember first time I met you. You weren’t married? [00:05:00]

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, yeah, you and I was saying delay, if you remember, I was. I always [00:05:05] say delay. Um, but you got married. And so then what? You were both [00:05:10] associates.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. So both associates doing our own thing. And then we actually worked part time for size [00:05:15] parents as well. Mhm. Um, so that’s kind of where we got our feel for the practice. Um, [00:05:20] and then, you know, sort of one thing led to another. And then Simon’s parents wanted [00:05:25] to retire and it’s sort of kind of just the momentum sort of happened and it just kind of was the next step [00:05:30] really. So we worked as associates for, I think like what, 2013 [00:05:35] to 18. So five years, we’re associates there. And then we took over bought, bought [00:05:40] it off them. And then, um, yeah. And then the biggest thing though was that we bought the practice [00:05:45] literally a month before I gave birth to our eldest. Wow. So that was like, that [00:05:50] was mega. You know, I remember being in labour in the hospital trying to figure out how to pay people for the first time. I hadn’t paid people. [00:05:55] Yeah. Um, so that was like a, that was like two major milestones happening, colliding, [00:06:00] should I say, at the same time. So that was quite major.

Payman Langroudi: You you’re more involved [00:06:05] in running it than he is. Is that correct?

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: He’s he’s out and about lecturing.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. But he’s [00:06:10] he’s more he’s more business minded. If I’m completely honest. I didn’t train to be a business person. I [00:06:15] trained to be a dentist. So it doesn’t come as easy and as naturally to me to do business things. [00:06:20] Yeah. Um, whereas it’s very, very easy for Simon. And, um, so we have like our strengths [00:06:25] and weaknesses and I’m more kind of, you know, so yeah, I mean, I don’t run it day to day [00:06:30] because, you know, we’ve got managers, but like there’s always something to do and there’s, you know, you’re always having to chase up on something or, you [00:06:35] know, like what, you know, something’s been left in the past. I’ll pick it up and say, what happened with that? And you’re always having to think that [00:06:40] way. But I’m definitely more ops sort of, um, ops minded and size [00:06:45] more like kind of direction leading, leading that way, you know.

Payman Langroudi: So then what? He who [00:06:50] does the hiring and firing, do you both.

Meghan Chard: Um, so now we’re sort of delegated [00:06:55] the hiring of the nurses to our managers. Yeah. And then the associates, [00:07:00] I would probably, I’d probably interview them and then I would probably um. [00:07:05] Yeah. I think I’ve interviewed mostly sometimes I’ll bring Sai in depending, but some, a bit of both, [00:07:10] but mainly me, I would say.

Payman Langroudi: And you get like you must do, you must get fan boys and girls [00:07:15] saying I want to work here because it’s you too.

Meghan Chard: Uh, I think Simon does. They don’t really message me that much, which is fine [00:07:20] by me. But yeah, I think more for Sai. He does? Yeah. He gets.

Payman Langroudi: So does that mean the associate that turns [00:07:25] up at your interview is expecting more than just patients in the practice. [00:07:30] He’s expecting like some form of mentorship. Or is that something you offer to get the [00:07:35] right associate or what.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the deal for an associate at Rothley Lodge?

Meghan Chard: Yeah, [00:07:40] I think so. Cider’s like one to ones with them and stuff like that. Um, and [00:07:45] do you know what it is? We’ve had like a really large NHS contract for so many years.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:07:50] did you carry that on when you bought it?

Meghan Chard: Yeah, it was massive [00:07:55] and it was.

Payman Langroudi: Still in NHS.

Meghan Chard: We still have some NHS but it’s much smaller.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Meghan Chard: We [00:08:00] had to reduce it because it got to the stage where we’d actually, even with size profile, we couldn’t actually find [00:08:05] it really hard to get associates. Mhm. Um, because they didn’t want to do the NHS and the NHS basically. [00:08:10] So now kind of in a slightly different situation where, you know, we’ve got [00:08:15] a much smaller NHS contract. So dentists now, you know, it’s much more easier [00:08:20] to get really good associates now I would say.

Payman Langroudi: And talk me through. I mean, Simon’s [00:08:25] both his parents are dentists. You said your uncle is a dentist. Talk me through the [00:08:30] sort of the I don’t know the I want to call it privilege that [00:08:35] that gives you in dentistry because now my my daughter’s announced that she wants [00:08:40] to be a dentist. And in a way I’m thinking, well done. At least someone. One of our kids is [00:08:45] because both me and my wife were dentists.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, so, [00:08:50] you know, when you went, how much planning? I mean, knowing Simon, you guys probably had [00:08:55] a big plan for what you were going to do to this place outside of building work. I mean, you did building work. [00:09:00] You expanded it.

Meghan Chard: In the practice. You mean. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But I’m thinking of like the, the mindset [00:09:05] going in. Were you going in thinking we’re going to make big changes?

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Yeah, I think [00:09:10] so.

Payman Langroudi: Did that annoy people. It must have done. It’s like there must be there must have been people who were [00:09:15] working there thinking everything’s been stable, everything’s been fine. Now these guys are talking about digital [00:09:20] or whatever it was marketing, whatever it was.

Meghan Chard: I don’t think it ruffle any feathers because I think [00:09:25] we weren’t sort of saying how it was done before was bad because it wasn’t it was, you know, his parents were [00:09:30] did an amazing, amazing job. Yeah. Incredible job. And they grew it from like a two surgery practice [00:09:35] to a five surgery practice. Um, but, you know, just naturally, you know, [00:09:40] the younger, the younger you are, the more sort of in the know you are of the newer techniques and technology. [00:09:45] Right. Um, so it’s just kind of a natural progression that we could see things that were happening, [00:09:50] um, and could and, and saw we could incorporate that and improve and grow the practice. [00:09:55] So it didn’t ruffle any feathers. And I think, you know, um, I mean, my dad still works at the practice [00:10:00] and he. Yeah. And he’s, and he like, he, you know, he was still owning it when we bought the Sarasin. And [00:10:05] so he’s always up for kind of trying new things. Yeah. Um, so no, it was, yeah. It was, [00:10:10] it was um and we implemented things slowly. You know, it was like bit by bit. So I think it was, it was a [00:10:15] natural transition.

Payman Langroudi: And you had to pay him for it properly, right? Because size got brothers [00:10:20] and sisters.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, we got it valued and we had to.

Payman Langroudi: Get it handed to you.

Meghan Chard: We bought it. We bought it at market, [00:10:25] market price.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah. And so were you involved in sort of the financial [00:10:30] planning as well?

Meghan Chard: Uh, with all of that when we bought it. Yeah. I mean, it’s a bit yeah. I mean, I’m [00:10:35] very lucky that, you know, my in-laws are amazing. Um, but obviously it can [00:10:40] be quite tricky with like knowing each other’s insides and outs and business [00:10:45] and things like that is like a very fine line that we have to be careful treading on. Um, but, you know, we [00:10:50] manage, we manage it, we kind of navigate our way through it. And, you know, we still have a really [00:10:55] good relationship and things like that. So we’re quite lucky that way. But it has been challenging.

Payman Langroudi: But you know, what I mean is what I [00:11:00] mean is anyone who’s buying any practice has to have a good understanding of the numbers and [00:11:05] understand that the numbers are very different. Once you bought the place because you’ve bought the place for [00:11:10] a huge number that needs paying off. Yeah. So, so this is my [00:11:15] point. Like if I’m going to start a practice, what do I have to learn? Did you, did you [00:11:20] have to go and, you know, watch YouTube videos or whatever and learn anything about this? Or did [00:11:25] you find.

Meghan Chard: Running a practice? Do you mean?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. But the numbers, what do we need to grow?

Meghan Chard: I’m still we’re still figuring it out now, [00:11:30] to be honest. Really, it’s still like, you know. Yeah. Because I mean, as you say, you know, [00:11:35] you’re just your dentist, aren’t you? So you’re kind of learning on the job.

Payman Langroudi: You know. Do you have a handle of it now? Like running [00:11:40] costs like these?

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Yeah. But it’s taken a few years to get that way. To be honest, I’m not gonna lie. We’re winging it [00:11:45] quite a lot of the time. But now I do.

Payman Langroudi: This.

Meghan Chard: Business. Yeah, I do feel like now we’re definitely. And [00:11:50] I think parlour has massively helped with that. Oh, really? Yeah. To be honest, because, um. [00:11:55] Size, I had to learn about how to actually, you know, so in dentistry, you know, it’s quite, uh, [00:12:00] the money’s quite patients come in coming in and so not easy to make money, not [00:12:05] that way, but.

Payman Langroudi: Compared to toothpaste.

Meghan Chard: Like. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, your patients come in and it’s quite, you know, [00:12:10] you don’t have to do too much, especially if you’ve got, you know, an NHS contract and patients come in and see you regularly and they’re coming in. So, [00:12:15] so whereas with, with parlour, he had to, you know, really know the numbers and really sort of [00:12:20] um like reject. Yeah. And also just really, um, you [00:12:25] know, expenditure, you know, what the expenses are really have a handle on what’s incoming and [00:12:30] outgoing and things like that. So that’s sort of translated into our practice. Um, so that’s [00:12:35] been amazing because I’ve kind of learned from him then and now. We definitely have a much better handle [00:12:40] on it. And we know, you know, what materials are and this and that and the percentage. And, you know, we’re kind of finally [00:12:45] getting.

Payman Langroudi: Surprised you the most about practice ownership. Like even [00:12:50] though you’ve had all these people in your history who’ve been dentists, someone going into [00:12:55] practice ownership as an associate, what surprises you?

Meghan Chard: I [00:13:00] think the staff management is really tricky.

Payman Langroudi: Trickier than you thought it was.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, yeah. Um, [00:13:05] and then also the legality side of that, you know, like, you know, just.

Payman Langroudi: Kind.

Meghan Chard: Of. Yeah. And [00:13:10] yeah. And all like your actual responsibilities and like pensions and this and that. And actually this is so it’s [00:13:15] like, it’s a whole, a whole job in itself is people have HR departments. Yeah, yeah. And that’s, you [00:13:20] know, you’re learning all that as you go along and you make some mistakes and you have some hairy moments and you’re like sugar, [00:13:25] you know? Um, so that I think is the hardest bit of, and I think when you ever speak to anyone [00:13:30] who’s a business owner, they will always say it’s managing the staff that is so challenging. Um, [00:13:35] so yeah, that’s what, that’s what I would say.

Payman Langroudi: So what are the top tips for managing staff [00:13:40] that you’ve learned in the last what is it eight years.

Meghan Chard: Top tips.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:13:45] let me give you an example. One thing I’ve learned, and I should have known this a long time ago, is that almost [00:13:50] body language is super important as the principal, you know, as, as the guy [00:13:55] at the top, when you walk in, you know, you gotta.

Meghan Chard: Bring the energy, you gotta bring the.

Payman Langroudi: Energy. Yeah. [00:14:00] It’s super important. Yeah. Um, there’s a, there’s a responsibility to being the boss. [00:14:05]

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So like you say, bring the energy, but go on.

Meghan Chard: It’s like, it’s almost like being a parent in some ways. Like you’ve got [00:14:10] to show up every day and like, even if someone’s like annoyed you or someone has done something that you think is [00:14:15] really disrespectful, it’s gotta let it go. And like the next day it’s wake up and turn up and just bring [00:14:20] the energy. You can’t if you’re in a bad mood and you’re leading the team and you come in and you’ve given this negativity, [00:14:25] then it’s just going to infiltrate in throughout the team. So you have to show up every day and just bring the energy. And remember, [00:14:30] they’re looking up to you. Um, And you’re trying to lead them and trying to bring them on your [00:14:35] on this journey that you’re visualising with you.

Payman Langroudi: Then. Okay. I mean, you know, we’re [00:14:40] talking about delegating, for instance. Yeah. And some people are really good at it naturally and [00:14:45] others aren’t. You know, like I’m not delegating. Yeah. Yeah. Um, some people will say, look, [00:14:50] this is the goal. These are the milestones. This is how we’re going to check in on each other. Yeah. This is what success [00:14:55] looks like. This is what failure looks like. And really, you know, stick to that. Yeah. That’s a great delegator, right? I’m [00:15:00] more like, yeah, this is the end. Go figure it out. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Which one would you say you are? [00:15:05]

Meghan Chard: Um, what I probably do is give them the end. Then I realise it’s [00:15:10] not working and I have to backtrack and say like, okay, this is actually how we need [00:15:15] to do it. Um, but I think, yeah, it’s all in the communication, isn’t it? But it takes a while to delegate. I mean, at [00:15:20] first I was definitely doing everything, trying to do everything myself.

Payman Langroudi: Trusting.

Meghan Chard: Anyone. But then you can’t do it all. [00:15:25] Yeah. So you just gotta delegate and just. And then just keep checking in, I suppose. But, um.

Payman Langroudi: But I see, like, look, [00:15:30] I know Simon so well. Okay. I’d say his super strengths are he’s laser [00:15:35] focussed, he’s super ambitious, and he thinks in long [00:15:40] time frames. What would you say are your superpowers?

Meghan Chard: I [00:15:45] am like a little bit hyperactive, like in terms of like, I [00:15:50] can’t sit still. Some might call it ADHD. No, I joking. I don’t know who [00:15:55] knows what it is, but I just like to get things done. So like.

Payman Langroudi: Do you make decisions quite [00:16:00] quickly?

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Which might be borderline impulsive.

Payman Langroudi: Do you trust do you trust your gut? [00:16:05]

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I do actually, especially with people. Do you. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:16:10] a.

Meghan Chard: Super strength. And actually I think I’m really empathic. Like I’ll know if someone, something’s off with someone. [00:16:15] I’ll just sense it immediately.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a super.

Meghan Chard: Strength. Yeah. And that’s what I think. And I’ll be like that. [00:16:20] Something’s not quite right there.

Payman Langroudi: I remember in the early days when my wife was involved in enlighten, [00:16:25] I remember sometimes we used to sit at night talking about one person’s life, one person’s [00:16:30] issues in their life and, you know, so involved with the team that it was almost like a [00:16:35] family nightmare sometimes.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Does that does that resonate? Did you do that before, [00:16:40] or did you manage to dissociate and have the manager take.

Meghan Chard: There’s so many team. You do get sad, obviously [00:16:45] about certain things, but I think you just have to like you [00:16:50] can’t take everything on, on your shoulders. You’ve got your own stuff to deal with and you’ve only got a certain amount [00:16:55] of emotional bandwidth. Yeah. Um, and I think, I think you can’t take everyone’s, you know, worries [00:17:00] and struggles on. So you can, you can do what you can to help. But I think we’re quite good [00:17:05] that way. I mean, I’ll feel a bit say you hear some really bad news, you’ll feel really sad about it and down about it for [00:17:10] a little while. But then, you know, you’ve got to, you know, just you’ve got to crack on with other things, I suppose. But yeah. [00:17:15]

Payman Langroudi: You’ve had you had kids or pregnancy right at the beginning. And so [00:17:20] maybe that gave you some sort of understanding, some sort of, you know, like, you know, you gave some, some difference to like [00:17:25] your home life. And whereas we didn’t have kids when we started the company. Yeah. And I guess it was like a kid [00:17:30] in a way.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the juggle.

Meghan Chard: The juggle? The juggles a [00:17:35] lot.

Payman Langroudi: It is.

Meghan Chard: It’s a lot. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Mothers who I have here, you’ve [00:17:40] got three kids. How old are they?

Meghan Chard: Seven. Four and one.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness.

Meghan Chard: You [00:17:45] know, we’ve just in the.

Payman Langroudi: Past month you manage to [00:17:50] do it.

Meghan Chard: All. I know. Honestly in the past month though my youngest has started sleeping through like properly. So I’m getting [00:17:55] seven hours of sleep now. So I feel like we’re entering a new era. Mhm. Um, are [00:18:00] the you know, what I find really hard is obviously [00:18:05] you’ve got the drop off and the pickup and all that sort of stuff, but I find it really hard to have like a clinical brain and [00:18:10] then a business brain and then a home brain and then like a wife brain. [00:18:15] I find it really hard to switch between all those things. And I think just being a mom alone, you’ve got [00:18:20] thousands and thousands of decisions you have to make, you know, and think about, you know, all the homework and what uniform [00:18:25] they need, because every day is a different uniform or they’ve got a party coming up, so you need to buy some presents, and they’re [00:18:30] growing out of those clothes and they’re going away next week. So we need to like get some new socks or some new shoes, like the decisions, [00:18:35] you know, you go out for the day and you’re like, right, I need, you know, I’m thinking, right, spare clothes and nappies [00:18:40] and snacks because we might not get home just quite on time. So I need to make them snacks and dessert.

Meghan Chard: And I think [00:18:45] I know Simon’s got a lot on his plate, but I think the difference between a mom and a dad [00:18:50] is that we take that all that on. And I think it’s draining. I think it’s like it just [00:18:55] your brain never stops. Um, so I find that hard trying to switch between [00:19:00] the different roles and even at work, you know, um, I’ll sedate [00:19:05] patients sometimes and things like that. So I was running late in the morning and I was sedating [00:19:10] a patient for two other dentists. So they were waiting for me to finish and I was running late. So [00:19:15] I was getting a bit flappy, and I had to nip upstairs to the office to get all my sedation stuff [00:19:20] out. And then my manager was like, oh, Meg, um, just need to a. Quickly talk to you about fire the staff [00:19:25] fire training. So I booked into it and I was like, I can’t, I can’t, I can’t like switch [00:19:30] to that brain. And that’s what I find really hard. Like I’m always multitasking and switch and switch tasking [00:19:35] and I just find that really draining. Yeah. Um, so yeah, it’s, I think that’s hard when [00:19:40] you’ve got like different elements going on.

Payman Langroudi: My wife used to say that she used to see doing [00:19:45] the actual clinical work as me time. Yeah.

Meghan Chard: Because you can just focus on [00:19:50] one thing at a time.

Payman Langroudi: Sad state of affairs. Man with crown prep is me time a. [00:19:55]

Meghan Chard: Real.

Payman Langroudi: Luxury?

Meghan Chard: Uh, yeah. No, I can relate to that. I can understand, so yeah, it’s [00:20:00] it’s, um.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, I look at Instagram and I know this is the way Instagram looks, right? [00:20:05] You look like you’ve got it all, you know, you’re on one minute you’re on holiday, next minute you’re [00:20:10] on a, on a one on one date night with Simon. And there’s kids and clearly [00:20:15] none of us have it. All right.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. No. And I don’t think you can have it all either, to be honest. [00:20:20]

Payman Langroudi: It depends what all is. Right.

Meghan Chard: And everyone’s all is different.

Payman Langroudi: You know, you’re.

Meghan Chard: I mean, I do have it all in some ways, but, [00:20:25] you know.

Payman Langroudi: Of course, but.

Meghan Chard: You.

Payman Langroudi: Could be 100 practices. You haven’t got that right.

Meghan Chard: And clinically I’m, you know, [00:20:30] like I’ve been, to be honest with you, um, you know, I feel like I’ve been hiding under a rock for the last eight [00:20:35] years because I’ve been trying for a baby, pregnant, having a baby, trying for the next baby [00:20:40] pregnant.

Payman Langroudi: This is what I was going to ask. What gives? Yeah. For you. So you’re saying your clinical [00:20:45] progression gave a little bit?

Meghan Chard: Yeah, I don’t think I could. You can’t. For me, that was [00:20:50] for me. I’ve always wanted a family that was like a priority for me. Yeah. So that was what I wanted. [00:20:55] Um, so as a result I had to take a step back from clinical and then, you know, you’ve got the practice side of [00:21:00] things as well. So maybe if I didn’t own a practice, my clinical would have gone that way. But then we have a practice. So [00:21:05] that gives us our lifestyle and things like that. So, um, and our flexibility and our autonomy. [00:21:10] So that’s kind of the priority in that. So, um, so clinical has definitely taken [00:21:15] a step back. Um, and now if I’m being completely honest, I feel [00:21:20] after three kids there’s probably about a three three brain cells left in there, so it’s really hard. My [00:21:25] memory is gone and it’s a real thing. Yeah. And, you know, it’s, um, you know, [00:21:30] we’re friends and I know my friend’s kids names, but in the moment I’m talking and I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Like, yeah, I know that.

Meghan Chard: I can’t think [00:21:35] of like my best friend’s kids names and it’s awkward and you’re like, oh, you know, you know, your [00:21:40] little love, you know? And so it’s, I find that really challenging. Like, I find it really hard to kind of get clinically [00:21:45] kind of keep remembering things and trying to learn things, you know, because I feel like I’ve got, you [00:21:50] know, a million plates spinning in your brain and there’s only so much you can hold on to, you know, [00:21:55] so that’s, that’s challenging because I used to be, you know, I used to be, you know, like [00:22:00] I used to be really like, really on it, you know, and love learning and doing all the new [00:22:05] techniques and things and, and then, you know, for the past eight years, I’ve had to take a step back, which is fine because [00:22:10] I’m so happy with what I’m so happy with what I’ve, what I’ve got. I’m like, I’m so happy. So, but [00:22:15] something has to give essentially.

Payman Langroudi: To give is the point, right? And you know, it’s not going to be the children. Yeah. [00:22:20] It’s not going to be the business. Yeah. Um, looks like you’re not you know, you’re taking care of yourself. [00:22:25] You’re going for runs and things often it’s that.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. No, exactly. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The relationship. Yeah. Let’s [00:22:30] not you know let’s not beat about the bush. The relationship needs time as well. Right. Um, but something has [00:22:35] to give and I speak to people.

Meghan Chard: You need to have a holiday.

Payman Langroudi: Holidays. Holidays. Do you have a [00:22:40] nanny? Yeah. You need a nanny? Yeah. You need a.

Meghan Chard: Village. You need a village, to be honest with you. [00:22:45] Do you know we. For my third, I thought I’m gonna treat myself to. So we have, like, um.

Payman Langroudi: A night [00:22:50] nanny, a night nurse.

Meghan Chard: No, I never, I never had a night nanny.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Okay.

Meghan Chard: Just just [00:22:55] it was a martyr for that one. Just did it for all three. Just took the took the hit. But it’s [00:23:00] fine. You know what? It’s you know, it’s part of part of motherhood. Um, yeah, we have a nanny now. Um, [00:23:05] my two clinical days that I go to work, she comes in at 6 a.m. and she stays at 6 [00:23:10] p.m. and that means that’s why you might see, you know, an Instagram me and Sy in the same room because [00:23:15] we have that time to exercise. Otherwise we never exercise together. Otherwise we have to tag team it. [00:23:20] But on those two days we get to exercise at the same time. And like this morning we did some hierarchy [00:23:25] training. We went for runs and and that’s amazing. And I remember when [00:23:30] I just had two kids, you know, we didn’t have a nanny that would come in the morning and I would basically [00:23:35] do my workout, get the kids ready, you know, get our lunch ready, get our scrubs ready. And like, it was just, [00:23:40] it was just so busy. And by the time I got to work, I was just so stressed, like dropping one kid off here and another kid off [00:23:45] here. And I remember thinking, oh my God, it is such a juggle. And then third time around, we just treated [00:23:50] ourselves to a nanny and she’s amazing. And, um, yeah, I’d say she comes at 6 a.m. and [00:23:55] we come to work and I’m like, right, I’m ready to take on the day. It’s so nice. Honestly, it’s worth [00:24:00] every penny. And it’s just to kind of give your life some harmony and some balance. Yeah. Of course. Um, that was [00:24:05] a game changer. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course, I think it’s so important for a woman to have a career so [00:24:10] important, you know, why not? Yeah. That’s correct. That piece of your head that [00:24:15] that addresses progression and being good at something and, you know, you [00:24:20] know, giving something to the world, it’s giving something back to the world. It’s a really important part of your brain. [00:24:25] Um, God forbid something happens. You can, you could, you can feed your children. There’s [00:24:30] that obvious, obvious part of it as well.

Meghan Chard: But we’re so lucky in dentistry. Yeah. Because not a lot of flexibility. [00:24:35] Yeah. You know, when you speak to other mums in the playground, like they don’t [00:24:40] work because they can’t have something that’s flexible or the money’s just not enough that it’s not worth, [00:24:45] you know, the sort of childcare and things like that. Or you have to work full time. It’s really tricky. So I feel very [00:24:50] privileged that way.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t want to talk about kids the whole time. But you said [00:24:55] you definitely wanted children. Have you always definitely wanted children, or was there a time where you weren’t [00:25:00] sure or, you know? Because I come across lots of teams, team members say, oh, I never want [00:25:05] a kid now have three children. Yeah. What was that like? Do you relate it back to your [00:25:10] own childhood or what was it about you knowing that you want to be a mom?

Meghan Chard: Just always loved [00:25:15] babies. When I was a kid, I was young, you know? I was the youngest of four. Okay. So I think I always wanted my parents [00:25:20] have another baby, but obviously I’m the youngest of four. They already had enough. And [00:25:25] so they obviously never had any more. And I always wanted a younger brother or sister. And so any time [00:25:30] there was a little baby around, I always loved like playing with them. Um, and so yeah, that was that was [00:25:35] it really just love, love kids.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and that decision just stuck through to adulthood. Yeah. It’s interesting, [00:25:40] isn’t it?

Meghan Chard: I know, and like I wanted my own family since I was a little girl when you were a child yourself. It’s very strange, [00:25:45] but obviously it’s that internal drive, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Of course. Yeah.

Meghan Chard: You know, it’s biology.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Meghan Chard: So, um. Yeah, [00:25:50] always, you know, always wanted kids. Um, kind of always wanted it all really. That’s the thing, you know, I wanted the [00:25:55] kids wanted to have like a career, um, always fiercely independent. I’ve always wanted to be able to like, [00:26:00] support myself as well. That was kind of my main focus. Um, so [00:26:05] yeah, that’s kind of my background really.

Payman Langroudi: So well, [00:26:10] While we’re there, let’s talk about your aunt. Your your aunt by marriage [00:26:15] was president of Ireland. Yeah, it’s pretty.

Meghan Chard: Major.

Payman Langroudi: Mary [00:26:20] McAleese. Yeah, I’m a massive fan. I’m a. That’s good. Your aunt’s way more famous than your [00:26:25] husband. Um, I’m a massive fan of hers. But tell me that. I mean, [00:26:30] the question of, like, in your family history, was there something about, you know, women being empowered, [00:26:35] educated? I know she was an academic, wasn’t she?

Meghan Chard: Yeah, yeah. But she came from like, she’s [00:26:40] the eldest of nine kids. Really? I don’t think they had a lot of money, but yeah, she, I think so [00:26:45] my, my parents and, and my uncle, my auntie, they’re from Belfast. So like they were Catholics. [00:26:50] Um, and I guess going up during the troubles, they were like second class citizens. Um [00:26:55] and so I think for them just to get out of poverty, you know, there are a lot of jobs that weren’t available for Catholic people and [00:27:00] things like that. So for them, education was like, number one, to get out of poverty and get out, [00:27:05] you know, to get yourself up in the world. So.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so in your house, was that like an ingrained [00:27:10] to you kids ingrained?

Meghan Chard: My parents were both teachers. So and, you know, obviously, you know, [00:27:15] they, they gave us everything they had, but they had four kids and they gave us piano lessons and this lessons [00:27:20] and that and that. So we didn’t have a lot of money. Don’t get me wrong, you know, we weren’t on the breadline, but we didn’t have we didn’t have luxuries [00:27:25] growing up, you know, we didn’t go on like holidays and things like that. Like, you know, we’d go to Ireland on holiday. [00:27:30] That was a holiday to see family. Um, but.

Payman Langroudi: They were you not in Ireland.

Meghan Chard: Or. No. So basically [00:27:35] they left Ireland because of the troubles.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I see.

Meghan Chard: And my parents met in Manchester, [00:27:40] they went to become teachers in Manchester and then they never went back to Belfast because it was 80s. [00:27:45] And it was like stuff was, you know, shit was going down. So they actually went to the Bahamas [00:27:50] interestingly. Well, yeah, like completely different. And when I think about that, I think, wow, like [00:27:55] going from Belfast to like a tiny island in the middle of like, oh my [00:28:00] God, like a completely different, um, so they went there for a few years and then eventually they decided [00:28:05] to go back to Manchester because the troubles were still going on. So yeah, I kind of grew up a bit in Manchester [00:28:10] and then went back to Ireland for my secondary school and then we came back to Manchester. [00:28:15] So I’m kind of like an Irish Mancunian is how I describe myself basically.

Payman Langroudi: Belfast. So interesting. [00:28:20] My dad studied at Queens.

Meghan Chard: Oh really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And back in the 60s. And he [00:28:25] said because he was neither a Catholic or Protestant, they always used to [00:28:30] come to him to, to like him and his friends, to like be president of the students union or whatever. [00:28:35] Brilliant.

Meghan Chard: You know, neutral territory. I love.

Payman Langroudi: That.

Meghan Chard: What did he study? [00:28:40]

Payman Langroudi: Economics. Economics. And it was like a big group that used to get sent by the oil [00:28:45] company to, to study abroad. And for some reason Belfast was a place that they studied.

Meghan Chard: But [00:28:50] it’s so random.

Payman Langroudi: But my dad’s like a very strict atheist. He’s [00:28:55] very much does not believe in God. And he was saying how funny it was that these, these two groups that [00:29:00] were so close to each other trusted him. So he doesn’t believe in God.

Meghan Chard: And [00:29:05] they’re fighting over and.

Payman Langroudi: They’re fighting over the smallest thing.

Meghan Chard: I know.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:29:10] the troubles, I mean, we go to Belfast a lot with our course and [00:29:15] what a great town it is now. What a great. It goes to show, doesn’t it, that if you let a let a people [00:29:20] thrive, they can thrive.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And yet your parents had to leave. Yeah. Because [00:29:25] of the troubles. Yeah. It’s really tough, man.

Meghan Chard: I know, but it’s a great place. The people are [00:29:30] so friendly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. It’s hard. I can understand the accent, but I can imagine other people cannot [00:29:35] understand.

Payman Langroudi: You say, come again?

Meghan Chard: Yeah, the accent is great. [00:29:40] I mean, Simon couldn’t understand my dad at first. My dad would be like, could you pass the salt, please? [00:29:45] And I’m like, you have no idea.

Payman Langroudi: Boy, can they drink. Yeah. You know, when [00:29:50] we go out on the social. My goodness, everyone’s out till 3 a.m. and [00:29:55] then the next day, everyone looks like they’re completely okay.

Meghan Chard: Like I I’ve lost those that [00:30:00] ability. I’m like, you know, the hangovers are unreal for me now, but, um.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, so [00:30:05] look in amongst all of this now you’ve found an interest in airway obstruction. [00:30:10]

Meghan Chard: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And childhood airway obstruction.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which is super interesting. So [00:30:15] let’s, let’s talk about that because airway dentistry is becoming very fashionable. [00:30:20] Mhm. And I guess we’re talking about sleep apnoea and snoring and all of that. And devices [00:30:25] you can put in adults. Yeah. For a start to help with that. But let’s talk about what are the for [00:30:30] children? What are the firstly, the signs and symptoms of a child who’s having airway [00:30:35] obstruction. Yeah. What should we be looking out for. And then what are the treatments.

Meghan Chard: So [00:30:40] the thing is sleep disordered breathing is kind of the sort of big headline the title. [00:30:45] And essentially it’s like a disruption in a child’s, you know, you know, even [00:30:50] adults obviously can have sleep disordered breathing. And essentially it’s a disruption in their normal breathing [00:30:55] habits while they’re sleeping. And it’s a spectrum. So it ranges from kind of mouth breathing at [00:31:00] night to sort of some snoring to upper airway resistance syndrome, to obstructive [00:31:05] sleep apnoea. So it ranges from kind of resistance and restriction. So not getting as much oxygen [00:31:10] in um, all the way to kind of complete collapsing of the airways and getting no oxygen in at all. [00:31:15] And what that means is, um, it affects the amount of oxygenation that’s occurring in [00:31:20] your body at night when you’re sleeping and it affects your ability to get into deep restorative sleep. [00:31:25] And, you know, obviously deep restorative sleep is essential. You know, you have so many.

Payman Langroudi: Sorts of different.

Meghan Chard: Systems, everything, [00:31:30] everything in your body, you know, you need to sleep, you know, if you don’t sleep, you actually will die. So, um, [00:31:35] you know, during deep restorative sleep, you have, you know, your brain is flushed out of toxins and [00:31:40] waste products. Um, and actually build up of these products is linked to kind of Alzheimer’s and dementia. So [00:31:45] it’s really important that, you know, when you’re sleeping, you have continuous deep sleep. So this process can keep [00:31:50] happening several times throughout the night. Um, so obviously.

Payman Langroudi: You on, on one of the posts, you [00:31:55] had a picture of an MRI of someone who slept really well.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And someone who hasn’t slept is massively different. [00:32:00]

Meghan Chard: Yeah, the firing up there, the brain, you know, and you know, those areas are involved with memory, decision [00:32:05] making, problem solving. So if they’re not firing up properly, like, you know, you know, [00:32:10] it’s like, for example, sleep deprived parents, you know, they struggle. They’re like, you know, your memory, you know, your.

Payman Langroudi: Brain [00:32:15] fog.

Meghan Chard: Brain fog, you can’t think, you can’t really function. It’s really tough. Um, and the reason [00:32:20] why I’m so passionate about it with children is because children are going through such rapid [00:32:25] growth and development. It’s like it really affects them way more than an adult. And with an adult, [00:32:30] it’s really bad. Like, you know, it can cause depression, obesity, diabetes, heart disease, stroke. It’s linked, [00:32:35] you know, with all these things. But in a child, they’re like massively growing, you know, and. [00:32:40]

Payman Langroudi: The mental.

Meghan Chard: Stuff. And they need that oxygen. That’s their powerhouse, you know, and so, [00:32:45] um, then therefore it’s going to affect them massively at school with their learning, with their behaviour. [00:32:50] You know, I know I’m emotional wreck if I’ve not had a good night’s sleep, but you know, with children, um, [00:32:55] with their focus, with their attention, Um, you know.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so crazy, isn’t it, that even when [00:33:00] you were a kid, you remember there was some kid who used to come to school like, um, naughty [00:33:05] or. Yeah, you know, something. And, and, you know, okay, nowadays we call, we call that [00:33:10] ADHD, but I heard sleep apnoea has something to do with that.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. So, so, so [00:33:15] sleep disordered breathing is kind of linked with like, so let me [00:33:20] rephrase. So 50% of ADHD cases have sleep disordered breathing.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [00:33:25]

Meghan Chard: Yeah. So what you should always do is if your child’s been diagnosed with ADHD is always [00:33:30] look at the sleep. It might not be the sleep, but always look at the sleep because there’s a 1 in 2, 1 in 2 [00:33:35] children sleep anyway. Right? Exactly. Um, but obviously if your child is, [00:33:40] say, mouth breathing, which is kind of the main things that I’m trying to like educate people on [00:33:45] if their mouth breathing, it’s limiting the amount of oxygen that they’re getting in. Imagine, you know, with an adult, [00:33:50] you know, we provide them with a, if they’ve got if they’re snoring, we provide them with a the mandibular [00:33:55] advancement splint. Yeah. And you’re doing that because it’s opening up the airways, right. [00:34:00] So if your mouth breathing as a child. And that’s because when they’re snoring, their snoring, because their mouth [00:34:05] the mouth’s open and the snoring with the, with the oropharynx is it’s like kind of that vibration, right? So [00:34:10] same thing was the child. When the mouth is open, the jaw hinges back and [00:34:15] it compresses the airways. Yeah. And actually, um, which I find mind blowing, an [00:34:20] average seven year old’s airways is seven millimetres in diameter. Uh, [00:34:25] and if that mandible hinges open just by half an inch, it can actually close it up by [00:34:30] six millimetres. I’ve actually got some straws in my bag to show you. Can I show you? Sure. Of course. [00:34:35] So this is an average sort of airway of a seven year old. And if their mandible drops open by half an [00:34:40] inch, it can actually do that, right. So can you imagine trying to breathe all your essential oxygen when [00:34:45] you’re a child through something like this?

Payman Langroudi: So we’re looking at a massive straw and a tiny straw, basically. [00:34:50] Yeah. Yeah. That really that shows it.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Right. So, um, and so then what happens [00:34:55] is the child is getting fragmented, deep restorative sleep. So they’re basically sleep deprived. [00:35:00] And so it affects their body in so many different ways. And what that looks like that they, they, the symptoms, [00:35:05] the outward symptoms of this are basically they look to the outside [00:35:10] world when you don’t know that they’re linked, they look random. So they could be, could be bedwetting, tooth [00:35:15] grinding, um, ADHD symptoms, um, you know, sweaty, restless sleep, [00:35:20] morning headaches, eczema, asthma, um, you know, all these [00:35:25] things and people then start treating them separately, right? So if you’ve got like eczema, you need all these lotions, [00:35:30] if you have asthma, your inhalers, if you’ve got ADHD medication, [00:35:35] you know, or you know, you’ve got anxiety, you know, if [00:35:40] you don’t have enough sleep, you’re anxious the next day, anxiety, a case of therapy or whatever, or medication. [00:35:45] So all these things are kind of looked at separately.

Payman Langroudi: And do we have any idea what percentage [00:35:50] of children are having this issue.

Meghan Chard: Well, there’s lots of different studies [00:35:55] that show different things. I mean, I’m linked with this company by which, you know, we can talk [00:36:00] about later or not. I don’t mind forever, but um, the baby, um, they have done some studies [00:36:05] and I know obviously it’s, they’ve done their own studies, but it’s just an indicator of the scale of [00:36:10] the problem. So they did a study on 500 children, and nine out of ten of those [00:36:15] children were displaying at least one sign of sleep disordered breathing. And there were other studies that [00:36:20] are showing 70%, 60%, 80%, but a lot of children.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: Are [00:36:25] like, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Um, suffering.

Meghan Chard: Suffering from this. It’s an endemic. And, [00:36:30] you know, in America, in Australia, they are all over it. All the American academies. [00:36:35] So the American, uh, paediatric, orthodontic, the Ada, they all [00:36:40] say that dentists should be screening for sleep disordered breathing in children. Um, [00:36:45] and in the UK, unfortunately we’re quite behind, uh, in that.

Payman Langroudi: We tend to be. Yeah, but [00:36:50] tell me. So when you say screening, what do I do as a dentist?

Meghan Chard: So you, um, so [00:36:55] I use a sleep questionnaire and what I would do is I would do when I see a child for an examination, [00:37:00] the first thing I look at is basically any tooth wear. And I’m parents come to me all the [00:37:05] time. I’m like, oh, they’re grinding their teeth. I can hear them through the next door. Is that normal? And before I knew [00:37:10] any, any of this, I used to think, oh yeah. I mean, you know, they’ll just kind of grow out of it. Didn’t really know what to [00:37:15] do and couldn’t make them a night guard because their teeth were exfoliation. Right. And you’re like, you know, unless [00:37:20] their parents are millionaires and they want to every six months, you know. Um, but now I [00:37:25] know that it’s a bit of a red flag. And so if I see tooth wear, I’ll then look at the palate and I’m like, oh my goodness, [00:37:30] the palate is really high and narrow. Or I look at the baby teeth and there’s no spacing between the baby teeth that [00:37:35] they’ve got the perfect aligned teeth already. And they shouldn’t have that because they need the space for the adult [00:37:40] teeth to come through or, you know.

Payman Langroudi: So as you see these signs, one after the other, it [00:37:45] gives you it’s almost like detective work. Yeah, exactly. You get you get the sort of stronger and stronger inkling that there is a problem. [00:37:50]

Meghan Chard: And then I’ll say, so, you know, I had an emergency patient in a couple of weeks ago and they came. The parents were worried [00:37:55] that a tooth had come out and was coming, you know, just something that wasn’t really an emergency. But they were, you know, how [00:38:00] some parents can be a bit bit worried about a tooth coming through in the wrong place or something. So they came through [00:38:05] and she was five or something, and all her baby teeth at the front were like perfectly aligned, [00:38:10] no spaces. And then I looked at her palate and it was narrow and her teeth were a bit worn. So I just [00:38:15] said to them, does she snore at night at all? Like, how’s her sleep? And they were like, yep, she snores. [00:38:20] She’s so sweaty. She’s up several times in the night. She sleeps in [00:38:25] all these funny positions. So she’s there like she sleeps with the neck always like this. And that’s, [00:38:30] that’s the child’s way of trying to body’s way of trying to keep the airway, trying to keep the airway open.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Meghan Chard: And [00:38:35] all these things. And they’re like, we’ve been to paediatricians and they just said she’ll grow out of it and this and that. And, [00:38:40] and they were so relieved I’d actually asked these questions because they knew deep [00:38:45] down that something wasn’t right. But no one knowing the no. You know, no one knew what [00:38:50] was going on. And so when I was asking these questions, I felt like a massive relief that actually, oh [00:38:55] my goodness, there is something going on here.

Payman Langroudi: So by the way, such a beautiful moment. That moment.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, yeah. I mean, [00:39:00] honestly, I get like, I get goosebumps and like teary every time. Yeah. The parents like, because the parents get really [00:39:05] emotional. Um, because they know something’s not right, but they don’t know what and they go to the GP [00:39:10] and, you know, we’re not trained on this sort of thing. So no one really, obviously I’m in a group, [00:39:15] so I know lots of people now in the industry, but it’s kind of like, you know, on Instagram, the algorithm, it [00:39:20] knows that I’m into airway space now. So all I see is airways. So I think there’s, I think everyone knows about [00:39:25] airways, but really not really that many people do. So I feel really passionate about trying [00:39:30] to, um, spread the word on this because, uh, yeah, I think it’s, it’s mega.

Payman Langroudi: I think the moment [00:39:35] of diagnosis. We need to talk about it more. It’s such a beautiful moment. It’s such a beautiful thing. I think when, [00:39:40] when I’ve had a parent or someone who’s had a particular issue, we don’t [00:39:45] know what it is. And then someone definitively says that x plus y plus [00:39:50] z equals this diagnosis. And at least, you know.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, it’s a relief, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Yes. And, [00:39:55] and one of the privileges of our job really, because, you know, there’s things like taking people out [00:40:00] of pain. Yeah.

Meghan Chard: It’s massive, isn’t.

Payman Langroudi: It a beautiful thing? But then I expect once you do [00:40:05] the treatment, does the parent is the parent now expecting bruxism to stop? So [00:40:10] what do you say about that?

Meghan Chard: I mean so I mean. When [00:40:15] you say treatment. So I mean there’s obviously lots of different. So what is [00:40:20] really important to note about sleep disordered breathing is that it’s a massive jigsaw puzzle. Yeah. And there’s lots [00:40:25] of different pieces at play. So it’s not one. You can’t just wave a magic wand and [00:40:30] fix things because there’s usually several things going on at the same time. So it could be that, you know, they’ve got massive [00:40:35] adenoids and tonsils and that’s blocking the airway. So so they might be mouth breathing because [00:40:40] the adenoids are massive and they can’t breathe through their nose, so they’re opening their mouth. So that’s [00:40:45] kind of one element.

Payman Langroudi: Do you end up do you look for that?

Meghan Chard: Yeah, I look for that. Look for the tonsil size now and I’ll refer out [00:40:50] if they’re if they’re big in T.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Um or I’ll tell parents [00:40:55] that’s really big. You need to go and speak to your GP and get referral or whatever. But again, a lot of GPS are not really [00:41:00] don’t really know about it. So I’ll just do referral to ENT now myself to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but ENT [00:41:05] is on to it.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Well, I don’t know. I’m in, I’m in like a, a [00:41:10] a a group, you see, so I know certain, but I don’t think all of them, I don’t think there’s that many paediatric ents. [00:41:15] Mhm. Um because I think most people think you take your tonsils out for tonsillitis, [00:41:20] but you don’t, you take them out for airways. That’s kind of the reason why you would take them out more than tonsillitis. [00:41:25] Um but what else. You know, if the tongue isn’t like working properly, [00:41:30] then you need to train it up and strengthen it with myofunctional therapy. Because as dentists, I mean, [00:41:35] do you know how important the tongue is? The tongue’s like so important and we just were not trained on it at all. An undergrad. [00:41:40] But actually the tongue like positions. It shapes your palate.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:41:45]

Meghan Chard: Um, and we all know if you’ve got a thumb sucker, we know about a low tongue position. Well, it’s mega because [00:41:50] you know, that palate is so narrow. And if that palate is so high and narrow, that’s going to interfere [00:41:55] with the nasal airways, then, which then means that child can’t nasally breathe as efficiently. And [00:42:00] that’s going to impact them into adulthood because nasal breathing is like really a basic pillar of health. [00:42:05]

Payman Langroudi: Um, so let’s keep going step by step. So you start noticing some of these signs and [00:42:10] symptoms. Yeah. You look for the other stuff that might need referral. Yeah. They filled out a form [00:42:15] and all of that. Yeah. What do we do as far as treatment [00:42:20] from a dentist side?

Meghan Chard: Yeah. From a dentist. So if you’re. So it depends on what stage the child’s in. [00:42:25] Yeah. Because if they’re kind of in their mixed dentition. Um, and you know, they’re adult, you know, the adult teeth are starting to [00:42:30] come through now then I would probably at that point and I can see this crowding, there’s not enough space for like the [00:42:35] twos or threes to come through. Then at that point, I would refer to an early interceptive orthodontist. [00:42:40] So we have Doctor Yasmin George who works for us. She’s amazing. I know a few, you know doctor [00:42:45] she’s amazing. There’s lots you know doctor Stefan Decker there’s a few early interceptive orthodontists [00:42:50] who will try and expand the palate at that point to then optimise, optimise [00:42:55] the space the teeth to come through, but also open up, you know.

Payman Langroudi: With a with a device. So that’s a [00:43:00] device maxillary.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Um expansion.

Meghan Chard: Expansion. Yeah. Um so at that point [00:43:05] and then, you know, you let the teeth come through and then, you know, hopefully there’s more, there’s less, less crowding [00:43:10] less need less chance of needing teeth taken out. So that’s obviously amazing. Um, [00:43:15] so it depends on what.

Payman Langroudi: What age group can you do that in. Rapid maxillary expansion.

Meghan Chard: I think I mean [00:43:20] it depends. It depends on what what your sort of um I mean I’m not an expert. [00:43:25] Can I just point out on this. You know, I’m obviously learning as well.

Payman Langroudi: As you send it to them and they.

Meghan Chard: Said to them, yeah, but I mean it depends [00:43:30] on what it depends on the nature of the child. You know, I think if you’re, if your child’s really compliant, then maybe [00:43:35] five, you could even do it from. Yeah, but I think usually 7 or 8 is probably a good age because they’re kind of [00:43:40] a bit more aware and a bit more compliant at that point. Like my daughter is going to go for it. I’m going to get her a expanded. [00:43:45]

Payman Langroudi: Much of intercepted you. I don’t know if you know this, but how much of interceptive orthodontics [00:43:50] is airway led and and how much of it is actually like alignment [00:43:55] led.

Meghan Chard: Or linked though. That’s the thing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But but but when, when they see a patient or [00:44:00] orthodontists onto the airway question.

Meghan Chard: Are orthodontists in general. Yeah. [00:44:05] Um, I mean I don’t want to speak out of turn or anything like that. So, um, I think [00:44:10] it’s becoming more and more commonplace. Yeah. But I think the issue is the NHS is so like integrally [00:44:15] tied into orthodontics that it’s tricky.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t get any of this on the [00:44:20] NHS.

Meghan Chard: You can’t know. That’s the thing. Um and it’s really tricky because, you know, I think if money [00:44:25] was no object and in an ideal world and we lived in an ideal world, you know, all children [00:44:30] would be assessed by 6 or 7. And then in America they do that. You have your first orthodontic orthodontic assessment [00:44:35] by seven. So in the UK, that’s what I would, you know, I would love to see happen, but [00:44:40] there isn’t the funding for that. That’s the issue. Um so orthodontists hands are tied. Um and then the [00:44:45] issue is even if you do expand the arches, they may still need orthodontics later. So it’s [00:44:50] quite expensive. Um and again, not everyone can afford that. But in an ideal world, I [00:44:55] think you would start early, expand as much as you can, and then hope that everything [00:45:00] you know is optimum and you don’t need people. Children don’t need extra well or less. Children [00:45:05] need extractions and things like that.

Payman Langroudi: I guess it depends on the percentage of those that actually do benefit. [00:45:10] Yeah, that would make the big difference as to whether or not you’d sort of screen everyone. If [00:45:15] we’re talking from the alignment perspective. Yeah. But the airway perspective.

Meghan Chard: From the airway perspective, because I think.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:45:20] much more compelling.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, 100% because it’s, it’s wellbeing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: It’s like a, it’s how [00:45:25] your, it’s your body, you know, it’s, you know, by just nasal breathing alone, you get 18% more oxygen. [00:45:30] So, you know, oxygen is like it’s your powerhouse, right? It’s your energy source.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so [00:45:35] last week I was, I was, I was in Sweden and, um, our business [00:45:40] development manager gave me one of those stickers to put on my nose.

Meghan Chard: Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: To open my nostrils. And [00:45:45] I had the best night’s sleep ever. Yeah. I loved it. Yeah. I got on Amazon and bought, like, 100 of them. Um, [00:45:50] is that a thing?

Meghan Chard: I’ve not. Do you know what.

Payman Langroudi: Is.

Meghan Chard: That? No, I think it is. I mean, [00:45:55] I’ve never used them because I feel I’ve got quite good nasal. Yeah. Like patency I suppose. [00:46:00] Um but I. Yeah. People swear by them and I’ve mouth taped a few times. Um I’ve [00:46:05] quite often I mouth tape not every night because sometimes I’ve got that many lotions and potions on [00:46:10] my face. It won’t stick to my oils. Um, you know, mouth [00:46:15] tape.

Payman Langroudi: Kids, do you ask, do you tell parents that they should do that?

Meghan Chard: I don’t know. I mean, I wouldn’t tell anyone to do that [00:46:20] because it’s like I just but but it.

Payman Langroudi: Seems a bit.

Meghan Chard: Much. I’ve done it on my own kids. Oh. Have you? That’s my kids and that’s my [00:46:25] responsibility. Yeah. Um, but I won’t tell anyone else’s. You wouldn’t. I wouldn’t do it in a dental professional Like [00:46:30] capacity. No way. Because I just think like. But even you can, [00:46:35] but I wouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. If not us, who who’s going to do it?

Meghan Chard: No, I know, but I think there’s so much like, you [00:46:40] know, like you need to make sure, you know, Nick can easily breathe. And, you know, there’s all this, like, what if they’re sick in [00:46:45] the night and, you know, all this sort of stuff. But I mean, I’ve, I’ve done it with my kids. Um, [00:46:50] and it’s been fine. And I, and I know people who have done it with their kids and they’ve had really positive responses [00:46:55] from it. Um, but I as a dentist, not saying that, you know.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:47:00] get it.

Meghan Chard: And that’s just my personal sort of thing.

Payman Langroudi: And so tell me about the association with this, with [00:47:05] this product, what in what capacity are you associated?

Meghan Chard: So kind of a consultant for them in a way. [00:47:10] Yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And how did it come about?

Meghan Chard: I know it’s a bit random, but [00:47:15] basically so, you know, it kind of all started, I did a snoring course when I, you know, a couple of years ago [00:47:20] for adults. So I’ve always kind of been interested in the airway space. And I’ve known Doctor Yasmin [00:47:25] for a while. In fact, Simon had his first job with Yasmin. Oh, really? And so we’ve [00:47:30] always known she’s been into early interceptive orthodontics and how it’s kind of linked with like bedwetting and things like [00:47:35] that. So I’ve always found that whole thing really interesting. And then I read Breath by [00:47:40] James Nestor. Have you read that?

Payman Langroudi: Well, yeah, we had someone on who was talking a lot about it. I haven’t read it. Oh.

Meghan Chard: Jamie, [00:47:45] you probably have. Jamie. Anyway, um, it’s an amazing book, I love it. I’ve read it several times. It’s [00:47:50] really, it’s fascinating. Um, and so I’ve kind of got into that. And then my second, my [00:47:55] middle child is a thumbsucker. So like, you know, it kind of stresses me out as a dentist [00:48:00] because I have no control over it. I’ve tried everything and I can’t get him to stop it. And his palate is so high, [00:48:05] narrow, and his teeth are like, he’s got an anterior open bite and his teeth are crowded at the front. And I and I’m [00:48:10] like, I know too much.

Payman Langroudi: I know.

Meghan Chard: Too much. I wish I didn’t know as much. So it causes me [00:48:15] a lot of stress. Um, anyway, we were um, in Portugal about two years ago [00:48:20] and um, we went for lunch with Miguel, and Miguel suddenly went for lunch with Miguel and his family. [00:48:25] And my son, um, was sucking his thumb.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: And we were talking, you know, about airways [00:48:30] and things like that. Um, and then and I was saying I was interested in and actually Miguel’s been [00:48:35] involved with this company, um, for a while and he was saying, oh, this company’s amazing. My children are [00:48:40] wearing this device. It does this, it does that, you know, and he’s.

Payman Langroudi: So ahead of his time, isn’t.

Meghan Chard: He? I know he’s yeah, [00:48:45] he’s very inspirational.

Payman Langroudi: I feel like we’re all going to be doing dentistry. Like Miguel’s been doing like in 20 years time [00:48:50] or something. Exactly.

Meghan Chard: He’s going to be doing it in a rocket or something then. Um. [00:48:55]

Payman Langroudi: And so his kids were on the same device.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. And so he got me, he kind of [00:49:00] introduced me to the CEO, um, Leslie of B boy. And they’re called.

Payman Langroudi: An American company.

Meghan Chard: An American company. [00:49:05] They’re called Atherton. And actually Leslie is the daughter of the founder and he’s [00:49:10] a professor, Professor Burgess. And he was a specialist orthodontist. So he designed he created these [00:49:15] in the 1960s. Um, and he, you know, he studied like cephalometric cephalometric [00:49:20] radiographs, like the growth of children. Like he really knows what he’s talking about. So he created these [00:49:25] appliances. And then he’s kind of it’s a family business. And I just love their ethos. Like they genuinely do [00:49:30] really care. And they, you know, they, they like, they’ve been evolving this appliance over the last [00:49:35] however many decades. And so I kind of really aligned with their values, um. [00:49:40]

Payman Langroudi: Different ones. Or are they all the same appliance?

Meghan Chard: There are different appliances. So [00:49:45] there’s, there’s some, there’s a habit. The one that I’m sort of like trying to educate people on is a habit [00:49:50] corrector. Mhm. Um, and there are several different types, um, different brands [00:49:55] available. Um, I’ve chosen, I think, uh, b boy is [00:50:00] um, is different to anything else in the market because it’s got myofunctional therapy inbuilt [00:50:05] within the device. Whereas with other devices, you need to have myofunctional therapy exercises alongside [00:50:10] it, which is not necessarily a bad thing. You know, it is good to have myofunctional therapy is, is really, really important. [00:50:15] But at the same time, you know, um, compliance is really, I know that I personally, [00:50:20] I’m so busy with my kids and my life that I just, I’ve got homework to do this and that. It’s like [00:50:25] another thing to think about, and I get that. And whereas so when it’s inbuilt within the device, when [00:50:30] the child is wearing it at night and they’re swallowing hundreds of times a night, they’re doing these little kind of myofunctional [00:50:35] therapy exercises. So that’s why I think it’s quite unique.

Payman Langroudi: It’s kind of a mandibular advancement.

Meghan Chard: It’s [00:50:40] not advancement. It holds. It’s a class one. It holds the child, but it stops it from slipping backwards. [00:50:45] So hold it in a class one position and then it encourages more forward growth, [00:50:50] which is better for the airways.

Payman Langroudi: And encourages the tongue up.

Meghan Chard: It puts the tongue up and it encourages the tongue [00:50:55] to swallow in the right way as well, which is which is really important because the tongue.

Payman Langroudi: And that itself [00:51:00] makes expansion of the.

Meghan Chard: Tongue. The tongue is like nature’s natural palate expander.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:51:05]

Meghan Chard: So when you’re swallowing, it’s such a thick, heavy, strong muscle that when you’re swallowing properly, [00:51:10] it kind of that continuous light pressure helps to.

Payman Langroudi: And how long, how long does the treatment last? How [00:51:15] long does it take? How many months do they have to wear that?

Meghan Chard: Well, I think they say treatment is kind of well, [00:51:20] they say like you need to wear it about for a year or so, but, um, it kind of depends. [00:51:25] You know, it depends. It’s not every child is different and some lips are really flaccid and, [00:51:30] but even then it’s kind of like even after a year or so, the child gets such benefit [00:51:35] from it and feels like they’ve had such a good night’s sleep from it. It’s kind of really comforting.

Payman Langroudi: Oh they continue.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. They continue [00:51:40] to wear it because it’s like it’s directing everything. It’s still helping. Uh, you know, it’s helping to put the tongue [00:51:45] in the right way and direct, you know, forward growth of the airways. Um, and, um, [00:51:50] also the amazing thing about it is that it’s not custom made, it’s stock. So it’ll actually last. So, you know, you [00:51:55] don’t have to take impressions every six months. It’ll last them. So for example, it ranges from 2 [00:52:00] to 4 and then 4 to 6.

Payman Langroudi: When there is it kind of boil and bite. [00:52:05] No, no just no.

Meghan Chard: And it’s it’s made like, no, it’s not, it’s not silicone. [00:52:10] It’s not, it’s not, you know, it’s not no far, it’s no, you know, um, BPA, it’s [00:52:15] like non-hazardous. Um, again, which I think makes it different from other appliances on the [00:52:20] market, I think. And it’s made an American factory. Yeah. So basically it’s 4 to 6. And then when [00:52:25] the child’s first adult molars come through, then it’s six plus, and then that child has that appliance until [00:52:30] their second molars come through. So you can have, you can have that, you know, say the second molars come through in the 10 [00:52:35] or 12. You can have that appliance for 4 to 6 years technically. And because it’s, it’s, [00:52:40] it’s like it’s just one device, you know. So that’s why, that’s why I think it’s great because it can last them a few years. [00:52:45]

Payman Langroudi: And what does success looks like? Well, the child’s having better sleep and all that. Exactly. What does failure look [00:52:50] like? I mean, do some cases not work?

Meghan Chard: I guess compliance can be an issue. You know, you’re dealing with children so [00:52:55] compliance can be an issue. Um, and then, you know, I think so. So one study was done [00:53:00] with this device, um, on over 220 children. And [00:53:05] out of those 220 children, 75% of the cases improved, their symptoms improved. And they, [00:53:10] they investigated symptoms such as headaches, sore throats, um, bedwetting, um, [00:53:15] you know, sweating, you know, tooth teeth grinding. It was 2000 symptoms altogether, and [00:53:20] in total, of all the children and 75% of cases had an improvement, which [00:53:25] is amazing. And out of those symptoms, 38% had a 100% correction. So completely [00:53:30] went. However, 75% means that 25% didn’t notice anything. [00:53:35] So you have to always explain to parents, and I always explain to parents, look, this works in most people. Most [00:53:40] children, um, if they’ve got symptoms, obviously, if they’ve not got symptoms and they [00:53:45] don’t need it, um, but you’d make them um complete a sleep questionnaire first. So obviously [00:53:50] they have to, they have to be positive on certain things to make to, to, to show that they actually have, [00:53:55] you know, a strong signs of sleep disordered breathing. Um, and so yeah, I always explain [00:54:00] to patients to parents that, you know, in 75% of cases it’ll improve, but there’s always a, [00:54:05] there’s always a chance it might not. So you have to take the risk, obviously with that.

Payman Langroudi: And so you’ve been doing it long enough to see [00:54:10] some kids then thrive.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. You know, I’m still early on in it all. You know, I’ve [00:54:15] I’ve you know, so as I say, I’m my disclaimer is I’m not an expert. There’s people out there who’ve had [00:54:20] way more experience and things like that. But, you know, you’ve got to start somewhere. And I’m just passionate about getting the message out. And [00:54:25] do you know what I’m going to use, Simon? Use all the hard work that Simon’s done. You know, [00:54:30] he’s got his platform and you know, just just helps get the word out there basically. So, [00:54:35] um, yeah, I mean, I’ve had one, I’ve had several cases, but one particular case, um, [00:54:40] he was struggling with English, sorry, struggling with his reading and writing. Um, [00:54:45] he was very fidgety and difficulty in focusing at class. So [00:54:50] they gave him a stand up desk and he was to be assessed for ADHD. He [00:54:55] would sort of wet the bed every month. He would have sore throats, tonsillitis every couple of months, needing antibiotics, [00:55:00] time off school. Um, he, his mum would report his sleeping, [00:55:05] you know, he was very sweaty, very restless. Would knock things off the shelves up in the night, [00:55:10] wake up. Unrefreshed dark circles under his eyes. Um, and then basically [00:55:15] after like six and a half months, seven months of wearing the bee bite, um, he has had not one bedwetting [00:55:20] episode, not one sore throat. I’ve seen him for like a year and a half review now. [00:55:25] He’s never had tonsillitis since wearing the bee bite. Um, when he was having it every other month. He’s [00:55:30] not wet the bed once.

Payman Langroudi: Um and the mum, the mum’s attributing all of this to the mums like. [00:55:35]

Meghan Chard: Yes, like.

Payman Langroudi: He wakes up.

Meghan Chard: Feeling. Yeah. Honestly, I literally it makes me teary. Like he wakes up feeling [00:55:40] refreshed. He has won, uh, the headmaster’s award coming on leaps and bounds with his English, his [00:55:45] reading and his writing. I’m like, it’s incredible because I guess you’re just giving someone a good night’s sleep. Basically. [00:55:50] I’ve had another another case, for example, has had has eczema and the mums [00:55:55] tried like loads of different creams over the years.

Payman Langroudi: Steroids.

Meghan Chard: Everything, nothing worked. You know, just [00:56:00] after one month of wearing the bee bite, the kid was like, I’m less itchy. Like, isn’t that [00:56:05] mad? And again, school reports like the parents evening, normally the child’s like a bit sort of, you [00:56:10] know, not listening very well, you know. A bit fidgety, a bit distracted, really positive teachers [00:56:15] reports and things like that, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I can imagine someone listening to this feeling very [00:56:20] sceptical about all this. Yeah. But at the same time, when you take it back to.

Meghan Chard: The basics of [00:56:25] what it.

Payman Langroudi: Is, a good night’s sleep for a child. Yeah, it’s completely foundational. [00:56:30] It makes sense, doesn’t it? A good night’s sleep. Water nutrition. Yeah, exactly. A bit of [00:56:35] brain and exercise.

Meghan Chard: That’s.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. That’s all a kid needs. You know, there’s those things [00:56:40] we’re talking about one of the four pillars of childhood. And then you really would [00:56:45] think anything’s possible with a better night’s sleep.

Meghan Chard: I mean, if you’re if I’m in a funky mood [00:56:50] or I feel a bit low or something, I just I just know I need a good night’s sleep. I just know I need to go to bed early, [00:56:55] get a good night’s sleep, and the next day I’ll be a different person. Yeah, it just makes you bring it back to [00:57:00] the basics. It just makes sense. You know.

Payman Langroudi: Once I didn’t sleep for two nights in a row [00:57:05] cramming for finals or something, cramming for something. It was some exam. Two nights in a [00:57:10] row. Yeah. We found these caffeine tablets if you’ve ever tried them.

Meghan Chard: The pro [00:57:15] plus ones.

Payman Langroudi: On the second night, they weren’t working anymore. And then someone, someone [00:57:20] found this, like this orange powder. That was for, like, bodybuilders. Yeah, but [00:57:25] it was, it was it kept you awake. It kept you awake. So I had that.

Meghan Chard: But were you even productive, though? I [00:57:30] mean.

Payman Langroudi: This was this was going to say the reason we did two nights in a row was because it was two exams [00:57:35] in a row. The first one, I was like, thank God, because, you know, there was no way I would [00:57:40] have passed. Yeah, I needed that night. Yeah.

Meghan Chard: Just to kind of get the last bit in.

Payman Langroudi: But the second one I [00:57:45] was, it was all surgery. And the question was differential diagnosis of a swelling in the palate. [00:57:50] Yeah, I was writing bullshit. Yeah. I knew I was writing bullshit, but I couldn’t [00:57:55] stop myself. It was almost like an inhibitory mechanism wasn’t kicking in. You know, like, you [00:58:00] know, like, I don’t know if maybe this is just me. You know, you’re driving your car and you think, should I just drive straight into an oncoming car? [00:58:05] And you think, no, no, I better not. You know that inhibitory thing? Yeah. That [00:58:10] wasn’t kicking in. Yeah, I was writing crap. I wasn’t even using like, like medical terms. [00:58:15] I was like, yeah, if you have a hot pizza and stuff.

Meghan Chard: But [00:58:20] I mean, I have either that is why.

Payman Langroudi: Two night’s sleep.

Meghan Chard: It’s like the Japanese is a form of torture.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, [00:58:25] yeah, yeah. You’re right. And then, you know, people who take their own lives often can’t [00:58:30] sleep.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And again, I’m sure there’s an inhibitory thing going on.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. 100%. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:58:35] yeah, I’m sure it affects everything. I want to talk about parlour. [00:58:40]

Meghan Chard: Um.

Payman Langroudi: How’s that been for you guys? I mean, it’s a I’m [00:58:45] in toothpaste, right? It’s a bloody hard business. Bloody hard. Anything that’s [00:58:50] like, you know, £10, you have to sell hundreds of thousands of them.

Meghan Chard: It makes dentistry look so much [00:58:55] like easy, doesn’t it? In some ways. Like you just do a filling. Yeah. How many, how many, how many, how many toothpaste [00:59:00] tubes is a filling?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The lovely thing about a dental practice is you need about, you need to convert [00:59:05] about a thousand people’s opinions. Yeah. And you’re done. Yeah. If a thousand people love [00:59:10] you, you can have an amazing Dental practice or practice or whatever. But in a business [00:59:15] like that, literally, you need to move the market. Yeah. Um, and I [00:59:20] remember when we started the first six years were disgusting. I mean, disgusting, [00:59:25] terrible. We were literally firefighting for the whole of that time. [00:59:30]

Meghan Chard: Yeah. I can, I can, I can very much, you know, imagine relate that.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:59:35] tell me. Yeah. Tell me about that. The what [00:59:40] did you think it was going to be like before you started? What was it like as you started the, [00:59:45] the. Simon told me the moment. The moment it got into boots, he thought that was the end of it. And [00:59:50] he thought. He thought that.

Meghan Chard: Was.

Payman Langroudi: Everything’s everything’s over. He’s made.

Meghan Chard: It. Yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah [00:59:55] yeah yeah, exactly.

Meghan Chard: Um, do you know Simon gets his ideas? And I was kind of let [01:00:00] him go with it. You know, he gets lots and lots of ideas. Like sometimes this is kind of a bit.

Payman Langroudi: Of a it’s a massive strength, [01:00:05] by the way.

Meghan Chard: Oh, it’s amazing, honestly.

Payman Langroudi: Of yours, of yours to let him.

Meghan Chard: To.

Payman Langroudi: Let.

Meghan Chard: Him go. [01:00:10]

Payman Langroudi: Go for it. Yeah. Like you could have, you could have just extinguished that flame in a moment if you wanted [01:00:15] to. Right.

Meghan Chard: You know? Yeah. But, you know, I think that’s why I obviously love love about being [01:00:20] with Simon. You know, like, um, I feel like I’m on, like, a rocket ship, to [01:00:25] be honest. I’m strapped in and, you know, I think for me, you know, [01:00:30] you know, this has. So for me, just to be a dentist was basically my ultimate goal. [01:00:35] Right. And for me, I was like, I’ve made it. I’ve done it right. That’s like his. [01:00:40]

Payman Langroudi: Boots.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. I was happy with that. And I genuinely was so happy. I was like, right, jump through all these hoops I’ve got [01:00:45] there now. I’m so happy. I’m so proud. That’s great. And I’d be happy. [01:00:50] I would have been happy plodding along, but I would have probably lived a very ploddy life and a very like [01:00:55] autopilot life, to be honest. Um, happy, but like a bit, but not living [01:01:00] to my full, full potential. And I feel like with being with Cy, he keeps pushing [01:01:05] our like boundaries to the next step, which is amazing because now the [01:01:10] life that I’m living now is something that I could never have even imagined. Like I literally [01:01:15] am living my best life, you know? I’m so lucky. Um, and but he keeps pushing [01:01:20] even still, you know, which is a blessing and a curse in some ways. I can imagine. Um, but for me, [01:01:25] I’m just happy to go along with the ride because it’s not my mental headspace thinking about this. I’m [01:01:30] just like the OP. So if Cy has an idea, I’ll just kind of go along with it. But it doesn’t [01:01:35] like, like I’ll take one step at a time and go along with it. But I’m not, it’s not the [01:01:40] headspace for me to like, be thinking about all this, you know? Yeah. Um, so, um, yeah, [01:01:45] so my point is, sorry, I digress here. So my point is, yeah, when Cy had this idea with, you know, [01:01:50] the toothpaste. And to be fair, my caveat is like actually at uni, he did say he always wanted to [01:01:55] make his own toothpaste toothpaste. I remember like, you know, studying and.

Payman Langroudi: I was a BS just now and [01:02:00] I bet a thousand people want to make their own.

Meghan Chard: Tv. Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Doing it.

Meghan Chard: That’s exactly [01:02:05] so. Well, exactly. So when he said, you know, when he said he was going to do it, I was kind [01:02:10] of like, okay, fine. You know, I didn’t really think much of it. I just thought, you know, he’ll try it and that’s it. But [01:02:15] because he’s trying to do something else before in the past, he tries to do some smoothies, I guess, make a smoothie with his brother. [01:02:20] Do you know about that?

Payman Langroudi: I remember I met his brother, it’s.

Meghan Chard: A great name. Blends with, blends with benefits. [01:02:25] It’s quite good. And we used to do all the tastings. I know he’s got this entrepreneurial sort of [01:02:30] spirit, so I just thought, let’s just, you know, you know, I encourage it because, you know, I otherwise [01:02:35] he’ll just leave a very he’d lead a very bloody life with me otherwise. So I let him just like fulfil [01:02:40] that sort of, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But, but okay. But so then they started. But I want to get into the [01:02:45] sacrifice that, that. Yeah. Yeah. Because I don’t know, every time we bring a new product out, I [01:02:50] feel like the whole year before that, and particularly the final [01:02:55] 2 or 3 months before the product comes out, this massive sacrifice. I mean, there’s [01:03:00] brain time that’s going to it. There’s missing stuff. There’s meetings where you don’t know what the hell [01:03:05] you’re talking about. Yeah. I mean, the hopes and dreams. Agony and ecstasy. Yeah, [01:03:10] that comes with it.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. So it’s honestly an emotional roller coaster.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: Because you [01:03:15] have some amazing highs, like incredible highs. You also have a lot of lows. Yeah. So it is an emotional [01:03:20] roller coaster. But I’m really proud. So a lot of sacrifice. You know we’ve got three young kids. So he [01:03:25] he tries to be as disciplined as he can. But like on holiday, like you can’t ever switch off. And [01:03:30] we have that with our practice as well. We always you know, it’s hard to switch off anyway. But you have that and [01:03:35] parlour. So we’ll have to do certain things whilst on holiday.

Payman Langroudi: Credit you guys with the [01:03:40] reason why we took 80% of the plastic out of our Evo.

Meghan Chard: For what [01:03:45] what from like inspo sort of like from parlour, you mean.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but actually it [01:03:50] was you. It was me. Yeah, me. Yeah, it was you. Because we were somewhere and [01:03:55] I said, hey, you’re doing this, environmentally friendly thing, right. And then you said [01:04:00] something like, every time I throw some plastic in the bin, it makes my heart race. [01:04:05] Yeah. And I said, really? And you went, yeah, yeah. Because, you know, kids, I’ve got kids. [01:04:10] And. And when I saw I saw that up to that point, I was thinking, oh, these guys are jumping on some [01:04:15] green bandwagon. Yeah. You know, at the time I remember like green became an issue. [01:04:20]

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. There were the pictures of the, the.

Meghan Chard: The turtle and the straws and yeah. But it just kills [01:04:25] me.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s emotive. It is emotive. But but I’d seen the picture of the turtle as well. But [01:04:30] then when you you said you really feel it and, and you weren’t, you know, messing around like you [01:04:35] meant it. Yeah. And I saw that and I went, oh, shit. It’s real. Like, this is real. And then [01:04:40] we were doing the next version of evolution and we said, look, let’s take as much plastic out of it as [01:04:45] possible.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. That’s great.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah.

Meghan Chard: That’s good. Well, you know, no, I mean, I try and be as eco [01:04:50] friendly as possible at home. Yeah. Genuinely, you know, have compostable cloths, you know, like just yeah, just, [01:04:55] you know, like I buy bars of soap and, you know, cardboard, like don’t buy plastic hand soaps and, you know, just [01:05:00] try, you just try what you can, you know, that’s all you can do, really.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to the darker part of this [01:05:05] pod.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: We like to talk about mistakes, clinical mistakes. But I kind [01:05:10] of want to. Before we do, I want to hear about what would you class as your darkest day from [01:05:15] the professional perspective in this ten year, ten years, eight years, eight years. [01:05:20] When did you.

Meghan Chard: Call it holding a practice or qualifying for 14 years. Oh, really? [01:05:25] Uh, yeah. 14 years.

Payman Langroudi: Old enough. Thank you. So, [01:05:30] yeah.

Meghan Chard: So there’s lotions and potions.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Meghan Chard: Toothpaste.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind when [01:05:35] when I, when I say that what the darkest days in this journey.

Meghan Chard: Um, I mean, Covid [01:05:40] is pretty bad.

Payman Langroudi: Oh yeah.

Meghan Chard: That’s pretty dark.

Payman Langroudi: So after you bought the place, right.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:05:45]

Meghan Chard: That was two years. So you still trying to find your feet? And [01:05:50] I mean the stress of that. I mean, that was quite, you know, before you knew everything, you know, once you got into the swing of [01:05:55] things, you’re right.

Payman Langroudi: But once the word furlough came.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. And like we were like, honestly, you know. Well, yeah, exactly. [01:06:00] Before furlough though. So I remember in March, we actually closed. We actually closed, decided to close the practice before [01:06:05] we were even told to close the practice because all the staff were panicking. Yeah. And we were like, we’re gonna [01:06:10] close the practice. I remember me and sign looking at our bank account being like, okay, right. How many months can we pay the staff [01:06:15] for? Like, like, how much have we got in the bank to pay the staff? And, and we were like, we’re [01:06:20] crying because we’re like, okay, we can only do a couple of months, really only two years into owning a practice. And we’re [01:06:25] like, and then you’re also like, and how, how are we going to survive? Like, what are we going to do? And, you know, furlough [01:06:30] hadn’t even been mentioned at that point. And you were thinking, oh my God. So that was really like, I remember we was [01:06:35] crying. We were just non-stop crying at that, like that day. That was.

Payman Langroudi: Hard. We had all our team up here and [01:06:40] we said, we’ve got two choices. We lose half of you or everyone takes pay cut. [01:06:45] Yeah. And they said, oh, everyone take a pay cut.

Meghan Chard: Oh that’s good.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know it was that was that.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Yeah. It [01:06:50] was really bad. And then furlough fellow came in and you’re like, oh my God.

Payman Langroudi: You guys had NHS income or you weren’t even sure.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, we did have [01:06:55] NHS. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You weren’t.

Meghan Chard: Sure about. No, we didn’t know about that until later.

Payman Langroudi: Income at.

Meghan Chard: That point. No, no, [01:07:00] that’s what I mean. We didn’t um you know it was fine in the end. But [01:07:05] before you knew about all that, it was totally not fine. And then there was the threat of us going to the Nightingale. [01:07:10]

Payman Langroudi: Oh of course.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. We were like having to go to the we were having all these emails saying, you’re gonna have to go in. [01:07:15]

Payman Langroudi: Such a crazy.

Meghan Chard: Time. And we were like, oh my God, we’re gonna die. Even though we wouldn’t have died because it’s Covid, it’s like, [01:07:20] you know, we’re fit and healthy. It’s fine.

Payman Langroudi: But I remember I bought these FFP, whatever, three. I remember [01:07:25] that. Yeah, I bought these.

Meghan Chard: And the fit testing and all that.

Payman Langroudi: I bought these ten masks, ten [01:07:30] for £160, £16 each.

Meghan Chard: Oh my.

Payman Langroudi: God. Yeah. [01:07:35] To give to my brother who’s a doctor. Um just to, to wear in, in hospital. [01:07:40] Yeah. He went in with one and they told him he’s not allowed to wear it because [01:07:45] everyone else hasn’t got one. And then I think it was like [01:07:50] six days later, six days later, he wasn’t allowed not to wear it.

Meghan Chard: It was.

Payman Langroudi: A complete [01:07:55] it.

Meghan Chard: Was a it was a shit show.

Payman Langroudi: But the nice thing about Covid is that that massive [01:08:00] peak after Covid.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: None of us really expected. Yeah. Was extraordinary. [01:08:05] And so when you think back to Covid, you always had that feeling as well. The nice feeling.

Meghan Chard: So sunny [01:08:10] as.

Payman Langroudi: Well. Yeah. Yeah yeah. That’s right.

Meghan Chard: Like the garden. Uh, no, but that was like, that was like one of the, that was the darkest [01:08:15] day. And then I mean, I mean, there’s been lots of ups and downs. Um, I mean, [01:08:20] you know, I can’t.

Payman Langroudi: What we like at Dental school. Did you, did you find it easy or did you find it [01:08:25] hard?

Meghan Chard: You know, I.

Payman Langroudi: Who finds it easy.

Meghan Chard: I know I find it quite hard, [01:08:30] but I was like I came from I went to a state school. So [01:08:35] I had this sort of had this sort of chip on my shoulder, to be honest with you, that like.

Payman Langroudi: An inferiority.

Meghan Chard: Complex. Yeah. [01:08:40] And I remember the first week my sister was a lawyer and she worked in bank across the road from London [01:08:45] Bridge. So I remember after the first week there was this panic. Everyone went to the library and were getting all these books out [01:08:50] and I was like, oh, I don’t know what book to get. So I literally went to the library and I got like, honestly, the worst. I don’t even know [01:08:55] what books I got, but they were like thick, thick, heavy anatomy textbooks. And I put in my bag. The [01:09:00] bag was like carrying basically a bag of bricks. And I remember panicking. And I remember like, [01:09:05] after the first week, I went and met my sister for a drink. And I remember I just sobbed and cried and I was like, I’m [01:09:10] not clever enough to be here. I’m not good enough to be here. It’s quite teary. I was like, I’m not. I’m not [01:09:15] clever enough to be here. Shouldn’t be here. Because like, I was just so not used to like all these, all this confidence [01:09:20] and like, you know, when you go to a state school and everyone else has went to private [01:09:25] school, you do have this inferiority complex, to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: So I’ve heard that before [01:09:30] from people.

Meghan Chard: So yeah, it’s like, and I’m not saying, oh, feel good private school, like it’s not like that, but [01:09:35] they have this like.

Payman Langroudi: And then you go out with the poshest guy on the planet. Yeah, exactly.

Meghan Chard: And he goes the [01:09:40] roughest girl on the, you know, you know, the, you know, the Irish, Mancunian and [01:09:45] and um but you know, so I, but it was good in some ways because it really pushed [01:09:50] me to work hard. Yeah. And you know, I, I actually graduated second in the year [01:09:55] in the end. Um, so I was really proud of myself that way. But again, like always, like I always [01:10:00] after every exam, I thought I failed it, every exam, I was crying, I failed, I failed it and didn’t fail. I got like, you [01:10:05] know, like I did really well in it. So it’s just a constant like inferiority thing that I, I’ve had [01:10:10] to kind of develop like just kind of work with and overcome.

Payman Langroudi: Um, it’s such [01:10:15] an interesting thing because my, my daughter’s about to go to a levels and she’s in this [01:10:20] French school in.

Meghan Chard: French.

Payman Langroudi: School. Yeah. In South Kensington. And by its [01:10:25] very nature, the French people who decide to come to London tend to be like hotshot bankers. [01:10:30] Yeah, yeah. So she’s been surrounded by these rich people throughout school. Yeah. [01:10:35] As I was, as I was. But then now she did an entrance [01:10:40] exam for this school for underprivileged children.

Meghan Chard: Really.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s very unlikely [01:10:45] she’s going to get in.

Meghan Chard: It’s turned around now. It’s flipped, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Well, it’s very unlikely she’s going to get into that school because [01:10:50] the first four sort of qualifiers she doesn’t qualify for. Yeah. So they’ve said yeah if [01:10:55] you if you have to pay for your school meals, if you do this, if you do that, if you qualify, and then there’s a number [01:11:00] five, which is like, if you’re a complete genius, you know, and there’s like 800 to 1 trying to [01:11:05] get that one. Yeah. And we were having this discussion of, let’s imagine she gets in. Yeah. [01:11:10] It’s a very good school. They send loads of people to Oxford and Cambridge. Let’s imagine she gets in. Should she go or shouldn’t she [01:11:15] go, you know. And my wife was saying, well.

Meghan Chard: Well, because they’re kind of getting any [01:11:20] as in because it could they’re basically prioritising underprivileged over [01:11:25] intelligence.

Payman Langroudi: Well no, no there is they’re all very intelligent.

Meghan Chard: Okay. So there has to be intelligent. [01:11:30]

Payman Langroudi: Should she carry on where she is being surrounded by these super dupers banker’s children? You know, [01:11:35] those are the people who are going to inspire her. Or should she go to a school where everyone around her is underprivileged? [01:11:40] Yeah. And I was saying she’s she’s already done the banker piece. [01:11:45] Let her do the underprivileged piece, you know, to see the someone who’s got whose parents haven’t [01:11:50] been able to give him everything she’s had, who’s managed to be even cleverer than she is. And [01:11:55] but my wife was saying, no, no. Um, you know that 17, 18 is when you [01:12:00] really want to be inspired by the people around you. And for her point, it was I wouldn’t have [01:12:05] started enlightened if I wasn’t surrounded by my buddies who had conglomerates all over the world. You know, there’s this sort of question. [01:12:10] Yeah, yeah. You know, what you’re speaking to is, you know, I lived with one of [01:12:15] my partners and enlighten, you know, the guy had nowhere near the privilege that [01:12:20] I had. And he inspires me. He inspired he was top of our our class. [01:12:25] Yeah. And I was scraping through, you know. Yeah. So it’s an interesting question. [01:12:30]

Meghan Chard: Yeah. It’s difficult because you want to you don’t want to muddy cuddle your child either. Do you want to like, but [01:12:35] then you also want because I think I think um it’s [01:12:40] the connections as well are really important. I think you don’t underestimate who you know, and the [01:12:45] connections and not necessarily they give you a leg up, but like, it’s just, it’s important to say inspiration [01:12:50] or aspiration. I think, um, yeah, I don’t know. I’m not sure.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:12:55] did you get over the, let’s call it inferiority complex by coming top of your class?

Meghan Chard: Like, yeah, [01:13:00] I think I think fix.

Payman Langroudi: It for you.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, I think that, yeah. But funny enough, I won an award. So [01:13:05] they kind of give you awards, you know, once you’ve graduated, whatever. And I didn’t check [01:13:10] what the award was for. I just kind of was like, um, so I didn’t know I came second in the year by the way. Oh, [01:13:15] I see, um, I just knew I graduated with honours, whatever it was. So I didn’t know I came second [01:13:20] in the year and I received the Saunders Award and I was like, oh great. Yeah. And [01:13:25] um, it was only when I was like, what was the award for? I was like, oh, I don’t know. He like rang up for me and [01:13:30] was like, what’s the Saunders Award for? And they’re like, oh, it’s for coming second in the year. And I was like, wow, I like, you [01:13:35] know, I did not even know that. So yeah, I think that that really helped.

Payman Langroudi: Not a joke in King’s coming second. [01:13:40]

Meghan Chard: Well, well, hold on to it until I’m like. I’ve done nothing since then, but I’ve got to hold on to that [01:13:45] till I’m like, on my deathbed, you know what I mean?

Payman Langroudi: It’s a bit mad, though, that your aunt was president of Ireland [01:13:50] and you still had an inferiority complex. Is it crazy? Um, I get I get it. [01:13:55] Yeah. So your aunt could be whoever. You still have an inferiority?

Meghan Chard: Exactly. Auntie. My auntie. Like [01:14:00] I’m incredibly proud of her. Like, from where she’s come from, where she is. And what I love about her [01:14:05] now is that, you know, she’s lived in the Arizona, in Ireland, which is basically the white House [01:14:10] is a copy of it, this big, big white House in the middle of Phoenix Park. And I’ve been there like I’ve [01:14:15] stayed there. I took me there when I was dating him. I took him there because he was president for 14 years. [01:14:20] But like, she’s so down to earth. Yeah. And she like EFS and Jeff’s like, [01:14:25] she’s Irish. Obviously it’s like second language, but she EFS and Jeff’s and she’s so down to earth and, um, [01:14:30] you know, she just like would get on the bus with her like pension with her, like bus pass sort of thing. That’s what I [01:14:35] love about her. You know, they’re just like, um, yeah. Um, just genuine people.

Payman Langroudi: I encourage anyone to listen [01:14:40] to that interview that I listened to the first time I listened to, properly listened to her. I remember her being president, [01:14:45] but the first time I probably listened to it was it was a leading interview [01:14:50] with, uh, Rory, um, and Alastair, Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart. Brilliant, [01:14:55] brilliant.

Meghan Chard: She’s got some amazing stories. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So brilliant.

Meghan Chard: She was like friends, [01:15:00] not friends. Okay, let me take that back. We tried that. She wasn’t friends with Gaddafi, but [01:15:05] she’s met Gaddafi and she’s gone to stay with, um um Nelson Mandela [01:15:10] in his like villa in like Zimbabwe. She’s been there. Like the story she can tell you are unbelievable. [01:15:15] You know, when the new pope was ordained, is the Pope ordained? I don’t know, um she’s [01:15:20] Ireland, right. And that every um country’s leader was there and it’s alphabetical [01:15:25] order. So she’s Ireland. Right. And she was in between Iran and Israel. So [01:15:30] she had to be like the peacekeeper between these two people So I’m like, oh my God, [01:15:35] the stories are unreal. I bet she has got some stories. Yeah, it’s really, really funny.

Payman Langroudi: What insight have [01:15:40] you got about public life from, you know, being a being close to her?

Meghan Chard: Um. [01:15:45] What insight? She’s the queen. The queen came, you know, [01:15:50] she’s the queen around. And like.

Payman Langroudi: Honestly, surely the privacy question, I mean, that must be an [01:15:55] issue, right?

Meghan Chard: I think she’s like, I think it’s I think I think being the president of Ireland [01:16:00] is quite chilled. I think people aren’t trying out to get you. I think I think everyone likes the idea. Everyone likes [01:16:05] the Irish don’t they?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah that’s true.

Meghan Chard: I don’t know about the security side of things now. Um, [01:16:10] no, I don’t think like my cousins, they don’t have any security.

Payman Langroudi: Perfectly normal.

Meghan Chard: Oh, [01:16:15] they’re so down to earth like. Like they are like absolute jokes. Like you would not know this. They’re [01:16:20] like so clever, but like, they’re so again, effing and jeffing like it’s [01:16:25] yeah, they’re so they’re lovely. They’re really down to earth, lovely people actually. Let’s get.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get [01:16:30] to the clinical errors.

Meghan Chard: Clinical errors.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind if I say, you know, from that sort [01:16:35] of black box thinking, we want to learn from each other’s clinical errors rather than in medical. [01:16:40] We tend to hide our errors because blame is such a big thing. Um, whereas if [01:16:45] we could all learn from each other’s errors, then yeah, that would help everyone. What comes to mind when I say [01:16:50] that?

Meghan Chard: Um, I mean, there’s like, there’s like the safe error [01:16:55] that I could tell, you know, that there’s a safe, there’s a safe bet that I could tell you.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, kind of, I’ll probably reject that one. And then [01:17:00] we’ll have to get to the dangerous one. But go on.

Meghan Chard: Um.

Payman Langroudi: So now that you’ve put [01:17:05] it out there, I know, I know.

Meghan Chard: Um no, well it’s not even safe, but basically it [01:17:10] was really embarrassing, to be honest with you. But you know, those CCD X-ray images, [01:17:15] CCD, right? So, you know, the sensors with the with the with the wires.

Payman Langroudi: The wires back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:17:20]

Meghan Chard: We had some of those at the practice.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: And it’s really embarrassing. But basically, I mean, you might say it’s lame. [01:17:25] But anyway, I had one patient and I was taking some X-rays on her. And normally the way my surgery was [01:17:30] positioned, I’d put the X-rays in sort of behind that kind of to the side of the patients behind the [01:17:35] patient, so that the wire was in front of me. So but on this one occasion, I [01:17:40] was like, in front of the wall, I was on the side of the wire. Right. So I put the, the, [01:17:45] the right wing in and taking a bite wing X-ray and I step over the wire, but I trip over [01:17:50] the wire.

Payman Langroudi: Tug rips the thing out of his. Does he, does he get [01:17:55] hurt?

Meghan Chard: And thank God there’s no teeth or anything. But the patient’s like are obviously in agony [01:18:00] and I’m like mortified. Um, and I was like, I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry. [01:18:05] And then obviously I, like sent some flowers and I just but like, it was a lady. She was so nice. I [01:18:10] wrote her a letter. I said, I’m so sorry. Like I’ve learned from it. I’m now will never do that. I’ll [01:18:15] always make sure I step this side. And she was fine. She came back and saw me as a patient, so [01:18:20] it was okay. But that was like really quite mortifying at the time.

Payman Langroudi: I like that one, but I don’t I’m not [01:18:25] gonna accept it for two reasons. Number one.

Meghan Chard: I know I don’t do you know what?

Payman Langroudi: Number one. Number one. There’s [01:18:30] nothing you could have done about that. Yeah. You know that you tripped. Yeah. Okay. You could say you had a good, good [01:18:35] relationship with her. And people who like us don’t see us. Not that she’s going to sue you for tripping. Um, [01:18:40] but number two, it was a happy ending. Yeah. I’m [01:18:45] looking for a more unhappy ending from a situation that you could have had more [01:18:50] effect on.

Meghan Chard: You know.

Payman Langroudi: I’m trying to tell me something. Something [01:18:55] around it happened in your practice. It doesn’t have to be your own error. Tell me something about [01:19:00] maybe a treatment modality that you thought was great. I used to put stick veneers on everyone’s teeth, and then [01:19:05] for six years down the line, it didn’t look so good. Like something like that. Or if you’ve [01:19:10] got it in your head, the dangerous one. Just tell them. Tell me, and then we’ll cut it out.

Meghan Chard: So. [01:19:15] Well, I mean, there’s one that keeps jumping to my mind and it’s really annoying because I’m like trying to [01:19:20] suppress it and like, forget about it. Yeah, yeah. But I’m like a really honest person. So if you ask me [01:19:25] something, I can’t lie.

Payman Langroudi: Basically, I love that too.

Meghan Chard: But you know what? Like, I’ve [01:19:30] listened to some other podcasts and I think some people have been really open about it. So I think, you know what, the whole point of the question, [01:19:35] whatever. It’s fine. And yeah, it’s quite a sad ending, to be honest with you. So it’s not really [01:19:40] it’s not light-hearted or anything, but basically I had this patient who was lovely. I’d seen her [01:19:45] for a couple of years and she was a teacher and she was about to retire. And, [01:19:50] um, she had this really niggly tooth, a lower right six, uh, [01:19:55] had a furcation involvement. She had a little bit of perio ongoing, so she’d see the hygienist regularly. [01:20:00] And this lower right six had a root treated as well. And [01:20:05] she was getting like aching and pain a little bit around there and a little bit of swelling around the gum. And [01:20:10] it was ongoing for like probably a year or so. And like, you know, I kept trying to clean it and like, give it some, give [01:20:15] her some antibiotics didn’t really seem to settle, but I just didn’t think anything of it because it just because I had [01:20:20] a root canal treatment in it and it had furcation and a bit of perio. I just thought this was like an inflammatory situation. [01:20:25] Um. Oh my God, I’m feeling quite serious now actually. Um, and then [01:20:30] she went away and then it bulged [01:20:35] it like fungating essentially. Yeah. And um, and essentially, [01:20:40] uh, she came back and it was a squamous cell carcinoma. And um, basically [01:20:45] even at that, even at that point, it kind of gave it a little bit, but I still was [01:20:50] so like, sure of my, so I’ve seen squamous cell carcinomas before and I’ve referred [01:20:55] before, like white patches under the tongue and things like that.

Meghan Chard: But this was like just really threw me because, [01:21:00] because it was treated and it had furcation and a bit of perio just thought it was inflammatory. [01:21:05] So even then, I still didn’t think it was like, like cancer, the [01:21:10] big C and, um, one of my colleagues like, no, it definitely is an urgent referral. And anyway, um, [01:21:15] I felt really bad because she’d like built like she trusted me in what I, what I thought it was, I thought it was just [01:21:20] like a infection. And anyway, it turned out to be squamous cell carcinoma. And like her husband [01:21:25] basically sent me a really like. Like a really angry letter. Understandably, because she’s about to retire this person. [01:21:30] Um, and he sent me a really angry letter being like, you know, he basically thought [01:21:35] I was like incompetent essentially because I was quite young, young dentist. Um, and, you [01:21:40] know, I was like, so I literally when I found out I was like the worst day because I literally, I [01:21:45] literally, I thought I’d killed this person and, you know, like, I don’t know what [01:21:50] happened to her. In the end, she went and got her jewellery, but I never knew what happened to her. Um, but [01:21:55] I remember just crying because I felt so guilty, um, that I’d, like, missed [01:22:00] this thing. Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: It’s easy to, it’s easy to miss.

Meghan Chard: And.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:22:05] easy to miss.

Meghan Chard: But, you know, anyway, I wrote him a letter being like, I’ve literally, I’ve [01:22:10] literally got a letter from another patient saying I’ve saved his life because I’ve referred so early. I caught something so [01:22:15] early and I’m. And I’m and I, and I rate myself an oral medicine. I’m quite like Simon always gets me in for [01:22:20] oral med. Format. Quite good with oral med.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s easy to miss. It’s easy to miss.

Meghan Chard: There’s no doubt about that.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:22:25] there’s no doubt about that. And what a brilliant one to bring up. Yeah, because that is important, [01:22:30] isn’t it? That and the way you talk about it is very, very clear. As soon as you said endo and [01:22:35] you said perio, what’s going off in my head is perio endo perio endo lesion. [01:22:40] Not for a second did I consider you were going to say this. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, [01:22:45] but but the letter. Yeah. I stopped practising 14 [01:22:50] years ago or something and still a letter where someone sort of questioned my [01:22:55] intent.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Still sticks with me. And it was, it was nothing like this, [01:23:00] but that, that question of, you know.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, yeah. It’s your intent.

Payman Langroudi: Your intent is completely [01:23:05] there.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s easy to miss. And yet a patient thinks that and that can hurt. [01:23:10]

Meghan Chard: Yeah. I mean, I wrote him a letter back and nothing ever happened from it. And, you know, um, [01:23:15] and I obviously said sorry, but I didn’t I said like, you know, she was a non-smoker. She didn’t drink alcohol. [01:23:20] She was none of the risk factors. But yeah, anyway, that was like, that was like [01:23:25] the darkest clinical day for me. Um, and then, you know, since then I’ve referred patients [01:23:30] where the teeth have like lost bone and like, I’m like, oh my God, that’s definitely cancer. And it’s like, no, it’s just perio, [01:23:35] you know, anyway, you know, but yeah, I got caught out at that time and um, yeah, really, really [01:23:40] sad story really.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re really brave to share that I really do and well [01:23:45] done for doing it because honestly, honestly, that you sharing that can save another life. You [01:23:50] know, 10,000 people are going to listen to this. Yeah, 10,000 dentists are going to listen to this. And [01:23:55] all of them are now going to be looking out a little bit more. Yeah. For that. And you [01:24:00] know, it’s weird that we learn from our own mistakes. You know, next time you’re going to think [01:24:05] about that thing more. But we can learn from each other, right? Yeah.

Meghan Chard: That’s it. You know, you know, like if [01:24:10] you read that, um, that book black box thinking where like actually pilots share [01:24:15] all their errors.

Payman Langroudi: This is about that.

Meghan Chard: You know, they share all their errors and actually, like medical professionals are [01:24:20] so scared to like be sued or be blamed that they have to like, not hide them, but they won’t share them with other people [01:24:25] because, you know, they’re embarrassed or ashamed about.

Payman Langroudi: You know, there’s a really famous one, isn’t it, about [01:24:30] the big, uh, plane crash where the junior guy could tell [01:24:35] that what the captain was saying was going to cause a crash, but he was junior and [01:24:40] the captain was very senior. And the learning from that was that if you’re a junior, you have [01:24:45] to say it. If you think you know, the captain said. Right. Engines full ahead. Yeah. And he kind of went, are [01:24:50] you sure? And then he just shut up. And that was recorded. And the flight recorder was it. And then they spread that [01:24:55] around the whole pilot community. Yeah. That doesn’t matter how junior you are. You know.

Meghan Chard: You’ve got a concern.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of like [01:25:00] safeguarding. Yeah. It doesn’t matter how small. Yeah. How little. You think it might [01:25:05] be a problem. Bring it up. Yeah. You won’t get in trouble. Basically. You know, that. That sort.

Meghan Chard: Of thing. I think it’s [01:25:10] so important. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Super important that we talk about these things super important and [01:25:15] you know, the way you feel is totally normal and missing it is totally normal. Let’s [01:25:20] face it. You know, we mustn’t punish ourselves about missing something like that in [01:25:25] that situation. No, thanks for doing that. So going [01:25:30] forward, I bet Simon’s got a plan to open 100 of these practices. [01:25:35]

Meghan Chard: Going, I.

Payman Langroudi: Think.

Meghan Chard: Well, strap yourself into [01:25:40] the rocket.

Payman Langroudi: Has that be the question?

Meghan Chard: Yeah I think.

Payman Langroudi: Are you going to get a second one.

Meghan Chard: I think we will. [01:25:45] Yeah. I think we’re just you know like our youngest is not even two. It’s one. You know I think we’re just trying to. But [01:25:50] yeah, I think it’s definitely something we want, we want to do.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and 20 like, [01:25:55] is that the way I bet he’s thinking like that.

Meghan Chard: Probably, you know, it’s like, I mean, one at a time [01:26:00] to be fair.

Payman Langroudi: Um, it’s not though, is it? I mean, you could go for private equity. You could, you know, you could. [01:26:05]

Meghan Chard: Yeah. I mean, it’s the thing is one year to the next so [01:26:10] much changes. Yeah. So you know we’ll see.

Payman Langroudi: But your operations you’re working on today?

Meghan Chard: Yeah. [01:26:15] I’m like, how much, you know? Um, but yeah, I think so. I think so like, like definitely in the future, [01:26:20] nothing immediate, but yeah, definitely. I think in the future, I think I would aspire to have more.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:26:25] you’re Catholic.

Meghan Chard: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Do you believe in God?

Meghan Chard: You’ve [01:26:30] got a few times on your podcast haven’t you? Do I believe in God? Um, not [01:26:35] as like a not like I believe in something. I believe in a higher power, I think, but [01:26:40] I don’t believe like in a man made religion that makes sense. Like I believe in [01:26:45] like a collective, like a collective kind of like.

Payman Langroudi: Oneness of humanity [01:26:50] and everything.

Meghan Chard: And like connected to everything, like nature and the universe and energy and like, you know, we’re [01:26:55] made of stardust.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Meghan Chard: Like there’s more. I, I believe in something. [01:27:00] I’m not an atheist. Um, and so I just think there’s so much we don’t even know. Like I can [01:27:05] sense when someone comes in and there’s something not right. I can sense that. I mean, it’s proven there’s like neuro [01:27:10] you’ve got like a sort of force field around you and your energy is sort of mixed. And there’s some [01:27:15] people that your energies really combine with and some that you don’t. Like the what is that about? Like it’s [01:27:20] got to be something bigger.

Payman Langroudi: But then but were you brought up as a Catholic.

Meghan Chard: A Catholic, and went to church until [01:27:25] I was 18 every.

Payman Langroudi: Sunday. Do you remember a moment when you sort of thought, screw this? Like, I’m [01:27:30] not going to go into I’m not going to go after organised religion?

Meghan Chard: Probably not.

Payman Langroudi: I think [01:27:35] not that late.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. I [01:27:40] mean, my parents, my mom especially has very strong faith. She prays like every day.

Payman Langroudi: My wife does.

Meghan Chard: Um, [01:27:45] and I love that. And I think I’m a bit jealous, really, that she’s, like, so strong in her faith. Um. For [01:27:50] me, um. Yeah, I went to church until I was 18, mainly because I had to.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:27:55]

Meghan Chard: I was forced by my parents, um. And Easter. [01:28:00] Oh my God. Thank God when I got to uni, the Easter celebrations, I didn’t have to do any more because there’s so [01:28:05] many church ceremonies. There’s like Good Friday is about three hours long. Then there’s like Easter [01:28:10] Saturday, Easter Vigil, then there’s Easter Sunday. Oh my God.

Payman Langroudi: So I [01:28:15] went to a Catholic school for three years.

Meghan Chard: They really know how to.

Payman Langroudi: Like.

Meghan Chard: Really long things out, don’t they?

Payman Langroudi: And [01:28:20] long ceremonies as well.

Meghan Chard: Oh, you know, I just think, you know, the.

Payman Langroudi: Buttons up a little bit. Buttoned [01:28:25] up, you know, like. Yeah, it’s not fun.

Meghan Chard: Chanting and chanting and up and down. It’s about chanting.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not supposed to be fun.

Meghan Chard: You don’t [01:28:30] need to change it up a little bit. Yeah. But I do believe I do think we’re missing. I do think religion and [01:28:35] community is what we’re missing in today’s society. I think a lot of young people are lost now because there’s no sense of [01:28:40] community, and it’s all very much about themselves. And what do I want and what do I need, which I think that was that’s our issue. I [01:28:45] think, you know, decades ago is very much like the community, you know, the bigger [01:28:50] picture. So I think that’s what we’re missing now. So I think there’s.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re kind of alluding to what used to go to [01:28:55] church on a Sunday. Yeah. And you’d meet your your community there. Yeah. And there [01:29:00] was a warmth and a society there. Yeah. That people haven’t got now, which is true. Like, [01:29:05] I don’t really know my next door neighbours. Really?

Meghan Chard: Yeah. It’s really sad, isn’t it? Everyone keeps [01:29:10] themselves now and then. Then we’ve got like, loads of loneliness as well. So I think we’re missing [01:29:15] something there. Um. But am I religious? Um.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not.

Meghan Chard: Spiritual. [01:29:20] You know what I mean? I feel like energies, but then.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, but you know how it’s, it’s kind [01:29:25] of helpful to be religious sometimes, right? When someone passes away. Yeah. You [01:29:30] feel like.

Meghan Chard: It helps you to process death and what it means and things like that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well, you know, there’s lovely things like going to a better [01:29:35] place or looking down on me or all of these things. Do you still have those sort of feelings [01:29:40] or have you become like me where I think, oh, when someone dies, they’re dead? And that’s a [01:29:45] terrible thing, right? Because.

Meghan Chard: No, I do believe in ghosts. I do believe in spirits. Spirits?

Payman Langroudi: Do you believe in karma?

Meghan Chard: Um. [01:29:50] Kind of. Yeah. Well, I kind of believe that, you know, because [01:29:55] I know I just listened to a podcast for you saying like, is it selfish? You know, like you’re being nice, [01:30:00] you have good energy back. But I just think it’s more harmony, you know? So I think, yeah, I do kind of do [01:30:05] believe in karma. And I think like you kind of get what you give. And I think if you’re not always, obviously, because [01:30:10] sometimes life is unfair and things happen that you have no control over. Um, and [01:30:15] I don’t necessarily believe in fate. Sometimes I don’t know, I don’t know how I believe in fate because, you know, I just think the children and, you [01:30:20] know, Gaza, like that’s not their fate. I don’t know, but I, um, [01:30:25] I, yeah, I kind of deal in good energy. I believe in good energy and bad energy. And I think if you’ve [01:30:30] got bad, bad energy, it’ll come around in a different way because of what you put out to the world. If you’re like positive [01:30:35] and you’re kind.

Payman Langroudi: Practically, yeah.

Meghan Chard: Then, you know, if you’re smiling at someone, yeah, they’re gonna smile [01:30:40] back to you. It’s that kind of thing. If you’re, if you’re growling at someone, you know, that’s it’s that kind of reciprocation. [01:30:45] I think. So, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I do see you talking about the future. [01:30:50] You and Simon sort of carried on the practice from his parents. Do you feel like you [01:30:55] guys are kind of looking to pass whatever businesses you [01:31:00] do onto your kid? Do you think of it that way, or would you like if someone came along and said, here’s [01:31:05] 20 million, you’re going to leave? Because I don’t know if you listen to the episode with Anushka. No. Dental [01:31:10] she’s she’s on 43 practices now.

Meghan Chard: 43 wow.

Payman Langroudi: And, [01:31:15] and three kids.

Meghan Chard: That’s what I mean. I’m like, how, how do you go from. That’s what I mean. It’s like, it can’t be. I, [01:31:20] I can’t imagine it, but I’m like 1 to 2 must be the biggest step.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. 1 to 2 is huge.

Meghan Chard: Because [01:31:25] then I’m like, how do people I meet people all the time and they’re like, yeah, I’ve got three, I’ve got five. And I’m like, what? [01:31:30]

Payman Langroudi: But I’m, I’m constantly telling people not to go from 1 to 2 until they’ve squeezed everything [01:31:35] out. Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, even if you want to own two or 3 or 4, you should be sweating [01:31:40] those assets. You know, if if your practice isn’t open seven days a week, then what you’re [01:31:45] doing going from 1 to 2. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. Keep one away. Yeah. And late hours and all that. Yeah. I [01:31:50] know it’s hard. I know it’s hard. I’m talking like I own a practice.

Meghan Chard: I know, I know, I know, yeah. [01:31:55]

Payman Langroudi: But you know sometimes I go to places right. There’s plenty of space for redevelopment. Like you added those rooms and [01:32:00] they’re talking about the second practice and there’s a vanity.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, there is an ego and ego. [01:32:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. So so so how do you think about succession?

Meghan Chard: Do you know my [01:32:10] kids are, you know, very young, you know, so we’re not we’re not you know, what if they were a bit older? I mean, they’ve they’ve said they wanted [01:32:15] to be a dentist, you know, but, you know, they but also, like my middle one said, he wants to be a T rex when [01:32:20] he’s older. So you’ve got to take that with a pinch of salt. Um but you know our second [01:32:25] he lines things up. He’s very everything’s, you know, I think he’d be a very good cosmetic dentist. Um, [01:32:30] but no, there’s no pressure. But if they wanted it to be then. Yeah. Um yeah. I mean, [01:32:35] but they’re so far away from that actually being a genuine like question that like, it’s [01:32:40] not really something we need to think about right now.

Payman Langroudi: The weird thing is though, yeah, that often they don’t know what they want. [01:32:45] I mean, my son did, but my daughter didn’t at all.

Meghan Chard: Well, why would you like [01:32:50] 16 to 18? I think it’s reasonable. Like you should almost do it how the Americans do it, to be honest. It’s like do [01:32:55] an undergrad, see what you like. But you know.

Payman Langroudi: How did you end up in dentistry? Was it your uncle? [01:33:00]

Meghan Chard: Well, indirectly. So. You know, we lived in Manchester a [01:33:05] lot, and. And between Ireland and Manchester. But like. I didn’t see my Uncle Martin that much. Like we only [01:33:10] saw him occasionally. So he didn’t have like a direct, a direct influence, but it was more. I knew that he was [01:33:15] a dentist and to be honest, we went to visit his house in Ireland. They were even there. They were [01:33:20] off because like Mary obviously had a big political career before she became a the president. We [01:33:25] went to their house and had a big harp in the hallway.

Payman Langroudi: Was it Mary’s husband? Who’s the dentist?

Meghan Chard: Yeah. [01:33:30] Oh I see. Yeah. Okay. And, um, we went to the house, an amazing harp in their hallway and, like [01:33:35] a beautiful house. And, like, you need to put two and two together, you’re like. Mm. You kind of just work things [01:33:40] out a little bit. Like, you know, we didn’t have a half in our house. There was no space [01:33:45] for half in our house. But so, you know, um, I think, yeah, I think, um, [01:33:50] and then I always like, you know, I always had, like, I know it sounds lame, but I always had a good experience going [01:33:55] to the dentist as a child. I never had braces as a child. So I was quite fortunate that way that my teeth were quite aligned [01:34:00] and.

Payman Langroudi: There are loads of people become a dentist because they love their orthodontists.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Really? [01:34:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Meghan Chard: Because you spend so much time there. Yeah, I don’t know. Yeah. Weird. And then do you know what I, I never [01:34:10] even thought I could do it because I was always a bit like average in the class. I was never like, you know, I was like just in the middle and [01:34:15] um, for my GCSEs, I did really well. And like, that was the first time I was like, oh [01:34:20] my God, I actually could do, I actually can do this. So, um, and then [01:34:25] just, you know, you kind of think, oh, and actually I was told in my careers by the careers person at college that I couldn’t do dentistry [01:34:30] because I didn’t have the right subjects. So I did biology, chemistry and performing [01:34:35] arts because I really, I at least love acting and singing and dancing. And I did that as an A-level. [01:34:40] And then they said I wouldn’t be able to do it. And I thought, I’ll try [01:34:45] anyway. And actually it is a perfect, it’s a perfect actual, um, compliment [01:34:50] because it’s communication and it’s like kind of showing up and being a persona and making a patient [01:34:55] feel welcome. And so actually, yeah. Anyway, I got in the Kings obviously felt it was [01:35:00] suitable and I got in. But yeah, so I just kind of jumped the hoops and that’s kind of, you know how I got in really. [01:35:05]

Payman Langroudi: I know this is really hard to imagine for you now. Yeah. But just for the sake of the argument, [01:35:10] let’s say you had a day off from everyone, including [01:35:15] Simon. What would you do?

Meghan Chard: A day off.

Payman Langroudi: Like [01:35:20] no one, nowhere to report. Do whatever the hell you want.

Meghan Chard: Okay, [01:35:25] so I’d get up in the morning, I’d do some exercise. I’d probably go in the [01:35:30] sauna. I’d go for a walk. Actually, in a forest.

Payman Langroudi: By yourself?

Meghan Chard: By myself?

Payman Langroudi: Bathe [01:35:35] in the forest.

Meghan Chard: No music? No. Yeah. No podcast. Just like. Yeah, just [01:35:40] like the nature kind of, you know, that’s what I would do because I feel like I never go walking in a forest because [01:35:45] when I’m carrying a million kids and they want snacks and they want to be picked up and they want, you know, so [01:35:50] I just love to go to a forest. Um, what else I do me like a massage or a facial or something, you [01:35:55] know. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But then, but then friends or.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. [01:36:00]

Payman Langroudi: Dinners or I don’t know, drinks or like.

Meghan Chard: I mean, I mean, [01:36:05] you know, I can keep going, can I? Lovely. Okay. I thought I’m going to pick up the kids right now. So [01:36:10] I’m not picking up the kids today. Um, yeah. Then I go for like a nice boozy lunch with some friends and [01:36:15] dance in the kitchen, basically. Probably.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your favourite place in the world? You’ve been in so many places. What’s your favourite place [01:36:20] in the world?

Meghan Chard: Oh, favourite place in the world? Um, I really like Cape Town.

Prav Solanki: I [01:36:25] love Cape Town.

Meghan Chard: It’s like got a magnetism.

Prav Solanki: I love.

Meghan Chard: The mountains, I love it.

Prav Solanki: It’s got it [01:36:30] all.

Meghan Chard: It’s got it all. Love, love.

Payman Langroudi: Mum from there.

Meghan Chard: She’s not, she’s from [01:36:35] Joburg.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Um so Cape Town I really [01:36:40] love I mean we’ve just come back from the Maldives. That’s just a very special place. Like I just feel so [01:36:45] switched off there. Um, that’s probably like the favourite. Yeah. Favourite places basically. [01:36:50] Um, is that a bit boring I don’t know. How about you. What’s your favourite place?

Payman Langroudi: I like, I like Cape Town a lot. Yeah, [01:36:55] I like Thailand.

Meghan Chard: Thailand.

Payman Langroudi: I like the food. I like the people. And you know, there’s enough. Enough. [01:37:00] Germans and Dutch guys have gone to Thailand to find themselves a bride. And those guys, when they build [01:37:05] villas, they don’t mess around. Yeah. You know, like they build these amazing villas. You [01:37:10] get, like, amazing.

Meghan Chard: Would you go to a villa if you went there? Would you go to a hotel?

Payman Langroudi: I [01:37:15] do, yeah, I prefer Airbnb to hotels.

Meghan Chard: You know, I’ve got three young kids, so I’ve tried. We [01:37:20] tried that in October. We went and did an Airbnb. And then after a few days we were like hotel. [01:37:25]

Payman Langroudi: It depends. It depends. I went to Dental forum. Do you know about that? It’s like [01:37:30] the power room in dentistry. It’s like it’s all the all the corporates and all the suppliers. [01:37:35] Right. And then you do speed dating, right? And for us, it’s a massive deal, right? It sometimes it [01:37:40] takes months to find out the name of the human that you have to focus on to get your product into [01:37:45] some big group. Yeah. Now, now you sit with the CEO of the group, CEO of the next group, CEO of the group. [01:37:50] So it’s a really good thing to go to. Yeah. Um, but, um, why am I, why am I [01:37:55] talking about. Oh, yeah. The last time, last time we went, it was they, they got the venue got messed [01:38:00] up and they had to in a hurry. They had to get another venue and we ended up in the W Hotel [01:38:05] in Barcelona.

Meghan Chard: Oh, nice.

Payman Langroudi: And it totally whipped me up to what [01:38:10] it is to go to a cool hotel. Yeah. You know, because I’ve been I’ve been stopping going to hotels for [01:38:15] the last ten years.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And the, as soon as I got my room key, wherever I wanted [01:38:20] to go, some guy would say, show me your key, please. Room key, please. Room key please. I was like, what the hell? Why do they keep [01:38:25] checking my room key, man? And then, uh, the one day later, you [01:38:30] realise, oh, that’s why they’re checking for the room key. Because the benefits of being in the [01:38:35] hotel, like sonar was on during the time we were there and they were having [01:38:40] a massive event in the pool. There was a whole queue. The whole town was there trying to get [01:38:45] in, but your room key would just get you straight into that event, you know? Yeah. You it’s certainly understood [01:38:50] that. Right?

Meghan Chard: I love a nice hotel. Just like. Come on, just relax. I don’t want to cook. I don’t [01:38:55] want to clean. I just want to relax when I’m like on holiday.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But in Thailand and in South Africa, they [01:39:00] have cleaners in Airbnbs.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like it’s standard. Like when we were in Cape Town, the guy [01:39:05] didn’t even bother to tell us that every day a cleaner would come. He just took it for granted.

Meghan Chard: Really [01:39:10] love.

Payman Langroudi: That.

Meghan Chard: That’s the dream.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. A couple of quick fire questions [01:39:15] for you. Best lecture. What comes to mind or course if you want.

Meghan Chard: Course. [01:39:20] Well, I mean, do you know what like I’ve been, as I said before, I’ve been hiding under a rock for the last [01:39:25] eight years, you know, so clinical hasn’t been my priority. And part of me has been like, I can’t [01:39:30] what’s the point in spending money and doing a course and doing this? Because I’m literally on maternity leave and I can’t get, [01:39:35] you know, but I actually went on a really interesting, um, I attended a lecture, an interesting [01:39:40] lecture in September, a guy called Malcolm Levin kind, I think he’s a paediatric dentist. [01:39:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: He is. Do you know him?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: Fascinating. Basically, the connection between children’s [01:39:50] teeth and their posture.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Meghan Chard: Fascinating. And he basically analyses [01:39:55] the child, and he has these mirrors around him and a mirror on the top. And the child has to, like, [01:40:00] stand. And so you see from all angles the child’s posture and, you know, this is linking [01:40:05] it back to airways. But a child who’s got an airway issue hyperextends their neck forward. And that’s the body’s [01:40:10] way of trying to open up the airways. So quite often you’ll see these children like this. And when he corrects the bite [01:40:15] and corrects the airways, the child’s posture just naturally is more straight. Mhm. [01:40:20] What blew my mind was this one child who was sucking her thumb and sucking her thumb [01:40:25] to the side. You know, you can obviously suck your thumb in different ways. She was sucking her thumb to the side, and [01:40:30] when he got her, when he took a photo of her, just her natural [01:40:35] pose was like one leg was slightly bent and she was kind of to one side. Right? And [01:40:40] he took a photo. Then when she put her thumb in her body, Uprighted. And [01:40:45] I found that. I found that mad. I was like, so her body is doing what? The body [01:40:50] is so clever. The body knows that. Like for some reason, by putting the thumb in there, it [01:40:55] kind of aligns her body to open up the airways and, you know, make her straight. And then when you take the thumb out again, [01:41:00] the kind of postures back and everything’s all it was just blew my mind. And I think, you [01:41:05] know, we kind of, I think we should be more integrated with osteopaths because. [01:41:10]

Payman Langroudi: We do that thing, don’t they, where they put an appliance in the mouth and then suddenly the power of the arm gets more.

Meghan Chard: It’s [01:41:15] crazy. Yeah. And I think there’s so much, you know, it makes sense. It’s like the airway thing. It makes sense. [01:41:20] Like the teeth. If the bites completely out, then that’s connected to the jaw joint. The jaw joint [01:41:25] is connected to the head and the neck.

Payman Langroudi: The song of the body.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, exactly. It’s like we learnt it when we were six. [01:41:30] The spine was connected to the, you know, it’s like, um. So that just blows my mind. I think that’s [01:41:35] like, that’s what I love about what’s coming up now. I think we’re integrating it all more with the body.

Payman Langroudi: Body connection [01:41:40] has become a huge thing. It’s become a huge thing. And not before time, you know. Yeah. Um, [01:41:45] and like you say, we tend to be behind on these things in the UK a little bit. What about resource? [01:41:50] Like what comes to mind if I say what’s your favourite dental resource?

Meghan Chard: Instagram.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Is [01:41:55] there a particular account?

Meghan Chard: Um, no. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I mean like like George dentist. [01:42:00] His accounts are amazing. Yeah. I kind of stay in touch with that end of restorative dentistry [01:42:05] through him.

Meghan Chard: Really?

Payman Langroudi: That bit of it. You know, that sort of.

Meghan Chard: Um, might be him. [01:42:10]

Payman Langroudi: Or is there a book.

Meghan Chard: You know, like I’m kind of on the airway thing now. I find it so fascinating. I found, [01:42:15] um, Shereen Lim. Do you know Shereen Lim? No, she’s Australian dentist. It’s called breathe, [01:42:20] sleep thrive. That was an incredible book. It’s like breath. James Nestor, like [01:42:25] incredible book. But Shereen Lim is like more dental focussed.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Meghan Chard: And it goes through everything from like, the [01:42:30] importance of breastfeeding and why breastfeeding is really important and things like that that has like got so many, um, [01:42:35] like really interesting and like, say saved by the mouth by Katie Lee. I love that book, you [01:42:40] know, talks about, you know, like, well, the mouth body connection. So they’re kind of like, I love those books [01:42:45] basically.

Payman Langroudi: Are you on the sort of longevity kick the way Simon is? Is he is he ploughing, ploughing, ploughing drugs down [01:42:50] you every day? Yeah, we’re still.

Meghan Chard: On most nights. Honestly, I’m obsessed with the sauna and cold plunge. Cold [01:42:55] plunge is a bit more six monthly. Like the winter is not really getting that much. You might see that a bit less on the Instagram, but [01:43:00] in the summer. But it’s coming to spring now, so I’m going to have to start getting into it. No, but it is amazing. But you [01:43:05] know, Brian Johnson has said that the sauna is like the number one thing for detoxing your body. Honestly, I’m obsessed. [01:43:10] Every night I feel so good just like sweating it out.

Payman Langroudi: So what do you do before [01:43:15] bed?

Meghan Chard: For bed? Yeah, it’s really great. Just like no TV, no phone, nothing like no book. Even [01:43:20] like just being, you know what I mean? No distraction. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Just a form of meditation [01:43:25] in itself. Yeah. So how long do you spend in there? What, ten.

Meghan Chard: Minutes. And sometimes me inside, [01:43:30] like so like that’s basically our business like planning as well. Like we basically start our business out when we sauna as well, [01:43:35] but like solving all the business issues during that sauna. So sometimes it goes really quickly [01:43:40] as well, you know. But um, no, I love it. And like it just apparently it’s really good for, for detoxifying against [01:43:45] microplastics in your body.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Meghan Chard: Yeah. So I love it. Obsessed. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Look at the [01:43:50] end of our time.

Meghan Chard: Oh, it’s been so much fun. So quick. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Final questions. Fantasy [01:43:55] dinner party.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests. Dead or alive. Who [01:44:00] you got?

Meghan Chard: I find these questions really hard to answer, but yeah. Had a little think about it. [01:44:05] David Attenborough. Right. I just think what a legend.

Payman Langroudi: Like he’s the number [01:44:10] one in the country, man.

Meghan Chard: I mean what I mean what’s going to happen. I mean I don’t even dare dare to think so. Um, [01:44:15] yeah. I mean, he’s been on the screen since I was a child, right. So I would just love to have him there. I think he’d be [01:44:20] a legend. I absolutely love him.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not the first time he’s been invited, is it?

Meghan Chard: Not really.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: Number [01:44:25] two, Tara Swart. Oh. Do you know Tara Swart.

Payman Langroudi: Rings a bell.

Meghan Chard: She’s [01:44:30] a neuroscientist and, like a medical trained doctor. She’s been on, um, Stephen [01:44:35] Bartlett’s podcast a few times. Okay. I just think she’s like, so she’s neuroscience, but she’s also quite [01:44:40] spiritual. And I love how she kind of like links the two together. So that should be quite interesting. [01:44:45] And then the third one I found really hard to think about because I was going to go for like, you know, like [01:44:50] Nelson Mandela or someone, you know, someone like that. But yeah, you know, and I’ve gone for something a little bit different. I think Davina [01:44:55] McCall.

Payman Langroudi: I like Davina McCall.

Meghan Chard: She’s like.

Payman Langroudi: Like, I like, I liked it when she was [01:45:00] young and I like her now as well.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, she’s brilliant. And I think, you know, she’s really fun. I think she has a really real [01:45:05] zest for life. She like is really into fitness. I think there’s not many like 50 [01:45:10] year old like, um, kind of who’s your inspiration? Who’s your role model? I think in certain [01:45:15] ways she’s like a role model to me. So like, I think Davina would be quite fun.

Payman Langroudi: She even talks about menopause, which [01:45:20] is like super important.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. And she’s like a brain tumour recently and yeah. And I think she actually [01:45:25] got breast cancer as well. Now I know, and, but she’s like so positive and like, she’s into her fitness and she’s [01:45:30] like, just fun. I think. So yeah, I think that would be my three be a bit interesting, a bit of an interesting one. Um, [01:45:35] but yeah, maybe those three.

Payman Langroudi: I like that. What would you have done differently?

Meghan Chard: Well, [01:45:40] career wise.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: Oh, no. Okay. Um, what [01:45:45] would I have done differently? I think, you know, I always wanted to, to, [01:45:50] to, to work in Australia for a few years. I really wanted to do that, like live abroad, [01:45:55] um, before we had kids and like live that life where you were earning and working in the sun [01:46:00] and things like that. But to be honest, I am Irish. So like.

Payman Langroudi: You’re kind of doing.

Meghan Chard: My skin like I’m 100%. [01:46:05] I’m not 100%, but I’m like 88% Celtic. My genetics. So [01:46:10] like, I think it’s actually like a, it’s like not really reality. I’d have been burnt. I’ve been like a red, a [01:46:15] red sweaty mess to be honest. So, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Do you like Australian?

Meghan Chard: Um. My brother lives there. [01:46:20] So yeah, I do like it’s very far away. Yeah. So I’ve been a couple of times, but, um, [01:46:25] yeah, the vibe.

Payman Langroudi: Is it more like South Africa? Yeah. Like America. I’ve never been.

Meghan Chard: It’s like South Africa, [01:46:30] South Africa kind of vibes. Yeah. It’s like really beautiful, like lots of nature walks. [01:46:35] Like everyone does their fitness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s quite and [01:46:40] quite similar culturally to like England. I would say it’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Massive, massive pleasure. I really [01:46:45] enjoyed it.

Meghan Chard: Oh, thanks for having me on. Payman. I really enjoyed it.

[VOICE]: This [01:46:50] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one [01:46:55] on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:47:00] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:47:05] for listening guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [01:47:10] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve [01:47:15] had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. [01:47:20]

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [01:47:25] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. [01:47:30] Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

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[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in [00:00:40] dentistry. Your hosts [00:00:45] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure [00:00:50] to welcome Henry Totterdell onto the podcast. Henry is a very interesting grad [00:00:55] graduate student, graduate dental student who I [00:01:00] met. Where was dentistry show?

Henry Totterdell: We met at the dentistry. Yeah. Dentist.

Payman Langroudi: I saw fire in your eyes that day. Yeah. [00:01:05] So, um, you you you’ve become an engineer [00:01:10] first, a mechanical engineer first. That’s right. It’s kind of an interesting route to dentistry, then worked [00:01:15] for a good ten years before choosing to go back and become a dental [00:01:20] student. Aged what?

Henry Totterdell: I was 34 when I started. Yeah, 37 [00:01:25] now.

Payman Langroudi: And now the third year in Bristol.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. Year three. Bristol Dental School. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And also [00:01:30] running a sort of a innovations hub at Dental Innovations Hub that where you sort of have [00:01:35] bits outside of the regular dental course for the students.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. That’s right. That’s the little like side project [00:01:40] on the side of the main course that sort of keeps me, keeps me interested in what’s going on in dentistry outside [00:01:45] of the actual clinical course, which is quite exciting. Allows me to give something back to the students as well, which [00:01:50] I really like.

Payman Langroudi: And not not to mention I look at your Instagram, it looks like an amazing travel blog. [00:01:55]

Henry Totterdell: Oh yeah, of course.

Payman Langroudi: You’re constantly away, right?

Henry Totterdell: I’d say I’m like a net absorber [00:02:00] of Instagram and social media rather than a contributor. I find it quite hard to go out there and [00:02:05] sort of post, post about myself, but every now and then I’ll be like, oh, I’ve been on this really cool trip. Like, I like my [00:02:10] friends want to know about that. So I then put up some, some trips. I’ve been really fortunate actually. I think that was [00:02:15] the, the perk of like my grad job and just like just being me, I had the, the time and [00:02:20] just go an adventure anywhere that I wanted to do.

Payman Langroudi: What are some of your favourite places you’ve been?

Henry Totterdell: Oh gosh, there’s so many. Um, [00:02:25] so somewhere like locally, I just, I love just going around France, but Slovenia. [00:02:30] Triglav National Park. The hiking there is unreal. And the the Alps there are very different than most [00:02:35] like a, I don’t know, like a Martian landscape that really jaggedy and aggressive. The hiking there is incredible. [00:02:40] Uh, Colombia. Absolutely love Colombia. India. Um, just so different to the [00:02:45] UK. Like really opens your eyes up to just humanity around the world. I absolutely love that. [00:02:50] Yeah. Colombia. I can’t put a single thing like a finger on my finger on a single thing. [00:02:55] Like what’s amazing about it? It’s just in general, it’s a really great.

Payman Langroudi: Did you travel around Colombia?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I [00:03:00] spent six weeks there back in 2019. Yeah. It’s just like popping around all the major cities. A [00:03:05] couple of hikes up in some national parks, like a really great country. People. People are so lovely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. My [00:03:10] my son’s going Colombia because he he didn’t take a year off. Yeah. Which I really feel [00:03:15] like I’m a failure for not persuading him to.

Henry Totterdell: Do it after uni. Like when you’re a bit older, you’re more confident.

Payman Langroudi: But what [00:03:20] he’s doing is he’s joining some of his buddies who did take a year off. I love that. And but he’s he’s going to Colombia, [00:03:25] but he’s not going to Bogota or Medellin or he’s not there in a different part of their [00:03:30] travels at that point where he can make it there.

Henry Totterdell: It’s such a big country. Yeah. Because you’ve got everything there. You’ve [00:03:35] got cities, mountains, like seaside. Then you’ve got jungle, so you can have some [00:03:40] rainforest. Beautiful place. Yeah. So you can have like the most diverse adventure you possibly want. It’s such a [00:03:45] great country. Yeah. He’s gonna have.

Payman Langroudi: Fun for travel, I think. Like, travelling young is super important, you know, like. [00:03:50]

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I would agree with you. Like, whilst you’ve got that freedom to do it. Your mind is super open. [00:03:55] Yeah. You’re inquisitive. Yeah, yeah. And I think it then gives you so much more back. Um, [00:04:00] when you then take that experience into whatever you do next, you definitely have a much more rounded [00:04:05] perspective on, on life and humanity, which I think is, is really important. And you, it gives you a confidence [00:04:10] as well to like, go and say hi to people. Yeah, to meet people to do.

Payman Langroudi: You travel on your own as well?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, mostly. [00:04:15] Yeah. Which is good. Yeah, I’ve done a lot of it. Um, or I’ll like meet people on the way for like a two week period [00:04:20] on the way. Yeah, yeah. I was glad actually, when I went to India, I was glad my friend was doing his grad scheme [00:04:25] out there. I landed in the middle of Mumbai. I’d never been abroad by myself before. And it’s quite a quite [00:04:30] an intense place.

Payman Langroudi: Mumbai.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Just got stuck in a traffic jam I’ve ever been in.

Henry Totterdell: Oh, yeah. You [00:04:35] can be stuck as a pedestrian.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: You literally sit there. You’re on the pavement. I can’t go anywhere right now. Like [00:04:40] what is happening. But it’s part of the joy of it, right? And so that I think really sort of, uh, got [00:04:45] gave me confidence to go and go wherever I wanted by myself and knew that I would meet people [00:04:50] and have a good time. And if I didn’t meet people, I have a good time by myself.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been far East.

Henry Totterdell: Uh, only as [00:04:55] far as Thailand. So yeah, it’s good, isn’t it? Yeah, like a really great country, [00:05:00] really nice place to travel around as well. People are so lovely. So much to see and do. Food is amazing. Yeah. [00:05:05] I think that’s one of the joys of travelling.

Payman Langroudi: It’s my favourite place this time.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I love it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a bit far [00:05:10] but but but now with Dubai it’s kind of like.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, exactly.

Henry Totterdell: You do need to go there [00:05:15] for like, you know, quite an extended period of time, I think to, to really make the most of that flight. But it’s so easy. [00:05:20] Like I say.

Payman Langroudi: Think back to your childhood. You grew up in Stroud.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. I grew up in a place called [00:05:25] Stroud in Gloucestershire. Yeah. Um, sort of like a family of five.

Payman Langroudi: So your parents [00:05:30] involved in dentistry or medicine at all or anything?

Henry Totterdell: Uh, well, my dad was a vet, so he was [00:05:35] on the medical side. Yeah. I think he was probably always a little bit disappointed. None of us followed his footsteps. [00:05:40] Um, but now I finally am, so it’s quite, quite exciting. I did my vet work experience, [00:05:45] which was good. I just don’t think I ever was passionate love for animals and things [00:05:50] like that. So I sort of like put that back to one side and follow.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of vet was he?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. Predominantly [00:05:55] small animal. But he’d do anything. Yeah. Absolutely anything. Yeah. He loved like the I guess of the patient. [00:06:00] I say the patient management, the the owner management and then the surgery. He could just operate all, all [00:06:05] day long I think. Yeah, yeah. He trained in London. Um and then yeah. So he was the, that’s where the medical [00:06:10] side comes from. Mum’s side of the family. Like farming and engineering mainly. So yeah, there’s a huge [00:06:15] number of engineers over in that side, which is quite.

Payman Langroudi: So you decided engineering.

Henry Totterdell: I decided engineering. [00:06:20] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How how random was that decision. Did you kind of know what you were getting into or you.

Henry Totterdell: I [00:06:25] think I didn’t know what the course fully involved. Yeah. I think I think like a lot of people [00:06:30] like you get to the end of A-levels or GCSEs and you say, well, what am I good at [00:06:35] at school? Cool. Well, I’ll, I’ll follow, follow that route. It seems like the next thing to do. So, [00:06:40] you know, I liked maths, I liked physics. Yeah. And so those types of subjects, um I took a [00:06:45] year or two out because I don’t know what to do at university. And then eventually decided to travel. [00:06:50] I didn’t then actually, no, I went to and then I injured my knee. So I needed to have surgery and things. So that sort of put [00:06:55] an end to that. But it allowed me to go back to back to college actually, and get the chemistry because I was looking at [00:07:00] medicine alongside engineering at the time and was like, well, if I do medicine, I need chemistry. So I focussed [00:07:05] on that and then came to the decision of, well, I like taking things apart, understanding how machines work, [00:07:10] maths, physics, I do engineering, it seems like the right route and threw myself in up at Loughborough. [00:07:15] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And which kit number are you?

Henry Totterdell: I’m the middle child. Number three. Yeah. Number two.

Payman Langroudi: Number [00:07:20] two.

Henry Totterdell: Number two. Yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh five.

Henry Totterdell: Well actually I do have five. Yeah. So I’ve got [00:07:25] two half sisters. Okay. Yeah. Who are from my dad’s previous, previous life. Um, [00:07:30] and then like my brother and sister. So I always say I’m just the middle child.

Payman Langroudi: Middle child.

Henry Totterdell: Those three amongst [00:07:35] the three of us. Yeah, yeah. Older brother, younger sister.

Payman Langroudi: So then you studied in Loughborough.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. [00:07:40]

Payman Langroudi: Great sporting place, amazing place.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing sort of campus [00:07:45] life.

Henry Totterdell: Really? Yeah. It’s one of the biggest campuses in the UK. Yeah, maybe not as big as somewhere like Manchester. [00:07:50] Yeah. But it’s sort of 4 or 500 acres. Everything happens on that campus from sport [00:07:55] to all your departments where you live. Um, it’s a brilliant place. And so it creates like this community. [00:08:00] There’s not much else to the town of Loughborough. I don’t know if you’ve ever been.

Payman Langroudi: But. Well, yeah, my son [00:08:05] went and he said he said the exact same thing. Yeah. And I said, well I think there must be a town nearby, right?

Henry Totterdell: Like there [00:08:10] is a town nearby.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Coventry. Where is.

Henry Totterdell: It? Well, it’s right in the middle of between Nottingham and Leicester [00:08:15] and it’s in the middle. So you’ve got big cities in a short trip.

Payman Langroudi: Coventry is a different [00:08:20] one. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: Coventry is I guess over near Warwick.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Warwick.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. So.

Payman Langroudi: So. All right. And then [00:08:25] so you said you enjoyed it. I loved it and you enjoyed the course.

Henry Totterdell: You enjoyed the course. Yeah. Yeah it was.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:08:30] was.

Henry Totterdell: Hard. Yeah. It was hard. Yeah. Yeah. No doubt about that. It’s uh, it’s pretty full on. Um, [00:08:35] yeah, a lot of lectures, a lot of coursework on top of that, a lot of exams. [00:08:40] And so you’re constantly sort of working towards it.

Payman Langroudi: When you compare engineering with dentistry, would [00:08:45] you say it’s harder than dentistry or less difficult?

Henry Totterdell: Oh, that’s a good question. I thought you might ask that. [00:08:50] Um it’s different I context to it. I was a lot younger when I did [00:08:55] engineering and my priorities in life were probably different. I was there to have a good time. So all the [00:09:00] extracurricular stuff was really high on my agenda is jam packed. I think, I think I probably [00:09:05] found engineering harder. Um, I think it was certainly, but I’m only halfway through dentistry, [00:09:10] so I’ve not got to the most demanding years yet. But I just remember there being a lot more coursework, a lot more expectation [00:09:15] on everything you did. Um, and therefore it took up a lot more of your time, you know. [00:09:20] Quite often you’d be sat there waiting for a computer to process overnight so that you could like if someone damaged [00:09:25] that model, you’d have to restart the next day. And you don’t really have that with dentistry. But I think dentistry [00:09:30] is about to get quite intense in years four and five when we’re on clinical day every day. So yeah, they’re [00:09:35] very different and there’s different ways of thinking as well. Engineering is very much objective. Maths like you get [00:09:40] to the outcome of your problem and you solved it. Whereas dentistry is like lots of remembering [00:09:45] facts and then applying those facts to things.

Payman Langroudi: So, you know, the engineers end up doing [00:09:50] all sorts of different things. So they go into finance, they go into so. So do you reckon [00:09:55] the training of engineering sets you up for dentistry somewhat.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. I [00:10:00] think you’ve hit on a really good point about engineering there. Like it’s so broad and it teaches you to problem [00:10:05] solve and think like so early on and always go back to first principles. Like you can solve any problem if you really [00:10:10] understand the basic building blocks to it. So I think that will really help me when [00:10:15] I get to get to dentistry. I already think about it now. So like, if you’re doing like all of our treatments ultimately [00:10:20] are almost like a, a series of steps and you need to include those and not include them. There’s like hundreds of [00:10:25] permutations as I’m learning, but ultimately you can, you can see the building blocks and think, well, how do I then turn this [00:10:30] into a treatment plan or a solution? So it will. Yeah, it definitely will help me and Mick.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:10:35] did. Yeah. Is what like, what’s the difference in mech engine for someone who doesn’t know. Mech engine. [00:10:40]

Henry Totterdell: Mech engine.

Payman Langroudi: Civil engineering.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I guess one of the.

Payman Langroudi: It’s like. It’s like the [00:10:45] core one, right?

Henry Totterdell: It’s one of the core ones. Yeah. And it’s all about, I guess, how things [00:10:50] move and how energy is, um, sort of like move between different things in order to get outputs.

Payman Langroudi: So all sorts of [00:10:55] machines.

Henry Totterdell: So yeah, you do lots of, lots of things like you work out the forces on things that [00:11:00] move or spin or like how energy is transferred from a fuel to a useful [00:11:05] output at the end. And you learn how to, uh, understand what the energy in is and understand [00:11:10] what the energy out is, and then turn it from one form to the other into something useful. Yeah. Whereas [00:11:15] civil would be much more structured space. I need to build this bridge. How do I build this bridge [00:11:20] in the right way? Yeah, mechanical is much more about getting getting energy to do something useful.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing [00:11:25] about it. So then you then go and do some jobs. You finish. [00:11:30] So was it three years?

Henry Totterdell: Uh, I did five total.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Did you do a year in industry?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I did a year in industry [00:11:35] and I did the Masters. Oh, it’s one of the few courses you can do on undergraduate masters.

Payman Langroudi: So it was [00:11:40] a four year course to start with. And then you added a year.

Henry Totterdell: It was yeah, four years of the course, one year of year in industry. [00:11:45] Yeah. So that was I guess my first real.

Payman Langroudi: Commitment to something to then give it all up. Right. [00:11:50] But it is I want to talk through that process.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. I feel it’s a big commitment. I think give ups [00:11:55] may be the wrong word. I feel like it gave me so much. And it’s just like a another part of my journey and like a [00:12:00] tool I have in my armour.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve stopped being a dentist.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, exactly. But like, how much do you get out [00:12:05] of that knowledge? Yeah. It’s incredible. Right. It’s, um, so it took me a long time [00:12:10] to give up, I guess through the degree I did my placement year, I worked in defence [00:12:15] mainly, um, down in Plymouth. So in the dockyards. Amazing experience. I think as a, [00:12:20] a young engineer who doesn’t know what they want to do to see like big machines that [00:12:25] like you can’t build in many places in the world, getting built and fixed and repaired is, is [00:12:30] something quite special. And that gave me a lot of a lot of focus to go back to the rest of the course and really knuckle down working. [00:12:35] Actually, it’s probably the the kick up the backside I needed after my first two years to, [00:12:40] to knuckle down and work and then finished the degree. Wasn’t sure exactly what to do [00:12:45] job wise. I had a job lined up with the company that I’d done my placement years with, which was [00:12:50] brilliant. I knew it’d be interesting, but it wasn’t giving me that that energy or fire that [00:12:55] I really wanted. Um, so I took a year out. I think like a lot of people, um, that was the [00:13:00] first time I’d ever really travelled the world by myself.

Payman Langroudi: So, so when you land in India.

Henry Totterdell: That’s when I landed in India. Yeah, [00:13:05] yeah. So when was that? December. After I finished, I spent a few months getting some money together and [00:13:10] then go. But in that time that I spent getting money together, I applied for other grad jobs. One [00:13:15] was with a consulting firm called Newton. Um, and I went to a presentation by accident at university. [00:13:20] A friend was like, oh, I’m off, off to this presentation by this company. She’d come along. I was like, yeah, sure. Sounds interesting. [00:13:25] And I got there and the first image was one of the submarines that was in the dockyard that had just been working [00:13:30] at. And that’s when they, they joined the engineering sort of problem solving [00:13:35] with sort of like the business side. And I was hooked on the idea of doing work for that company. It [00:13:40] gave me the chance to go and work in, you know, big defence projects, lots of different manufacturing [00:13:45] environments, social care, healthcare, grocery stores. And so [00:13:50] that that variation with using your problem solving skills.

Payman Langroudi: Would it be like a time limited bit of consulting that. [00:13:55]

Henry Totterdell: It.

Payman Langroudi: Might pull you in for?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, most often I think my first project was, say nine months up in Edinburgh on [00:14:00] the aircraft carriers, sort of like helping basically shorten the schedule of building those [00:14:05] and get everything really under control.

Payman Langroudi: And you were like a junior consultant.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. You’re just going as a consultant, [00:14:10] that’s it. And they give you four weeks of training.

Payman Langroudi: And they sort of rent you out at a higher hourly rate [00:14:15] than they pay you, I guess. Oh yeah.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the business model.

Henry Totterdell: The business model is very good if you’re the, [00:14:20] the owners. I mean, it’s very good if you’re a consultant as well.

Payman Langroudi: How is it as a career? I mean, did you, did you double [00:14:25] your salary in the first five years or not?

Henry Totterdell: Uh, just about as I said. [00:14:30] Yeah. It’s good. Like if you’re not sure what you want to do for a career and you love like [00:14:35] meeting people and you love tackling problems and, and really staying curious and [00:14:40] focusing on them. It’s a brilliant way to get a really broad set of skills that you can take anywhere. So it’s [00:14:45] like the perfect adjunct to engineering really in that sense. Um, and then yeah, you’re [00:14:50] on the road a lot. That’s probably like the big downside. Um, and you don’t get to integrate into a big [00:14:55] company, say, and settle in, but you’re part of a consulting body. So Monday to Friday, I was with [00:15:00] a load of other mid 20 year olds living in a hotel and just having a great [00:15:05] life. Like, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Is it as hard as a management consultant for us? I mean, [00:15:10] I’ve got friends.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. It’s a branch of.

Payman Langroudi: Friends who went into that. Yeah. And they were constantly [00:15:15] travelling and, and working their butts off. I mean, they’re working felt [00:15:20] like 24/7.

Henry Totterdell: It was tough from that point of view. Like every week you’d get on a train or a flight [00:15:25] somewhere and work, but you were quite lucky in that the engagements are quite long. So you did get, like nine [00:15:30] months in one place. Yeah, it was pretty good. The company I worked for were very keen on having that [00:15:35] work life balance. So you were home by 6:00 on a Friday and if you worked on a weekend. I [00:15:40] remember getting told off once they were like, why did you work on the weekend? Don’t do that. So they were good at that. But in the week it [00:15:45] could get quite intense, but probably 730 to 6 every day, something like that with maybe an hour in.

Payman Langroudi: The evening, [00:15:50] deadline driven work.

Henry Totterdell: A lot of it is. Yeah, yeah. Because I mean, that’s a set fee.

Payman Langroudi: They’ve is [00:15:55] there like politicking you have to be aware of like when you go into a business, you have to sort of understand [00:16:00] the relationships of the.

Henry Totterdell: You definitely have to understand people because I think sometimes [00:16:05] the mere fact you’ve got consultants in like, say, for example, if you’re going into a factory, um, [00:16:10] it might be to improve the efficiency of that factory or reduce the cost per unit of the [00:16:15] item that you’re making. Um, it’s usually the managing director or the general manager who’s, who’s [00:16:20] supposed to come in. Yeah. And then you’ve got the middle management who run the day to day operations, [00:16:25] suddenly having a group of quite young, very bright people with loads of energy [00:16:30] come in saying, hey, we can, we can help you fix this. But so I [00:16:35] say there’s definitely politics, but it’s, it’s more a real exercise in like [00:16:40] how to build relationships with people, how to build that trust and do it very quickly [00:16:45] so that you, you turn that sort of like maybe slightly hesitant person into someone who’s [00:16:50] on board and you’re solving the problem together, right? You’ve got to be so careful. It’s not, we’ve got a solution. [00:16:55] Um, do what we say. And it’s actually like we can help.

Payman Langroudi: Take them with you. [00:17:00]

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, we can help you get there. We know you’ve got a problem. Like we’re some resource to help you solve that problem. Let’s [00:17:05] do it together. And you keep us on the right track and we’ll tell you what we think the the direction.

Payman Langroudi: Look, it sounds like a [00:17:10] super interesting, super cool job. So what was wrong with it?

Henry Totterdell: It was super interesting, super cool. Um, [00:17:15] a few things I think. I think I started to find I sort [00:17:20] of lost my purpose. I wasn’t something, um, I ended up just being like, you know, you [00:17:25] go and help a company if.

Payman Langroudi: You’re a band aid.

Henry Totterdell: And then yeah. And then, well, hopefully the [00:17:30] goal was to leave something a bit more, you know, to fix the broken bone, not just not just to hold it [00:17:35] together. Um, and it found like you go from factory to factory or, and it was [00:17:40] sort of like rinse and repeat. And I couldn’t see myself like doing that forever. I wanted to [00:17:45] like, you know, say what I do and people be like, oh, I know what that is. I wanted to sort of be something. [00:17:50]

Payman Langroudi: That’s quite.

Henry Totterdell: Funny. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The motivations are so funny.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. It is. And [00:17:55] I want to be something that like could contribute to people and society.

Payman Langroudi: But did [00:18:00] you not feel like you were contributing by making the price of that can of drink cheaper?

Henry Totterdell: Sort of. But [00:18:05] I did have a manager once say to me, like, we’re talking about the moisture content [00:18:10] in mashed potato. And he’s like, you’ve got to try and think about it. Like if you make it more consistent, then you’re [00:18:15] benefiting society. And I think I lost it at that point. I was like, you know, that was that. And therefore, like, [00:18:20] because I wasn’t fully bought in, I was, I was never going to make partner or anything like super senior. So like [00:18:25] that just wasn’t my skill set. And I think I realised cool, that was the case. I was like, right, well, [00:18:30] I’ve got to get out of here. Um, so.

Payman Langroudi: What did you do.

Henry Totterdell: Next? So next I went [00:18:35] and did some internal consulting. So I joined a, joined a company just outside bath. That’s a pharmaceutical company, [00:18:40] a real niche part of pharmaceuticals I never knew existed. They prepared en masse, [00:18:45] uh, chemotherapy and antibiotics for IV injection. So yeah, they would [00:18:50] take 100 vials of a small molecule or a monoclonal antibody and turn it into [00:18:55] 20 IV drips, ship it out to a hospital so the nurse can just put a needle on and [00:19:00] put it in. So that was their that was their core business. And they had a home care business on the side that [00:19:05] um, administered treatments in patients homes and things like that, which is quite cool. So they found.

Payman Langroudi: Your job was [00:19:10] to optimise their sort of their operations.

Henry Totterdell: Exactly that. So at the time they had a [00:19:15] huge like waiting list of orders that weren’t being fulfilled. Like the order lead time was getting longer [00:19:20] and longer and longer. So working out well, how do we improve capacity on one hand, but also sort of like [00:19:25] tempered demands on the other to make make sure it’s much more balanced. And then sort of throw me [00:19:30] any problem I can get involved in, whether it was just purely operational, output focussed, or whether [00:19:35] it was sort of like helping us sort of manage quality improvements, for example, like the MHRA [00:19:40] was a huge.

Payman Langroudi: So interesting, like what comes in useful when you know. Yeah, I [00:19:45] remember I did, I did chemistry a level again, I couldn’t [00:19:50] see the applications properly or whatever. Yeah. And today I wish I paid more [00:19:55] attention at that. Yeah. Like, you know, or, and by the way, now I’m going back to chemistry. [00:20:00] Right. Um, but I never thought I’d be involved in chemistry. Yeah. But [00:20:05] now it’s like, it’s.

Henry Totterdell: Amazing how it comes full circle.

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t doing a toothpaste, whatever. It’s, it’s all chemistry, right? [00:20:10]

Henry Totterdell: It comes straight back to you. And you have no idea that at some point.

Payman Langroudi: So that pharmaceutical world.

Henry Totterdell: Yes. [00:20:15]

Payman Langroudi: What what was it similar to all these other businesses that you’d consulted for.

Henry Totterdell: From [00:20:20] the outset, right? Raw materials go in. Yeah, product comes out and people [00:20:25] people manipulate that in the middle and turn it into that product.

Payman Langroudi: And so did you find because that was chemotherapy or [00:20:30] did you find that more purpose driven?

Henry Totterdell: Oh, hugely. Yeah. I like the fact that I [00:20:35] could see like you would get feedback from patients or from hospitals. And you could like, everybody [00:20:40] knows someone who’s had cancer, um, and has been impacted by it. And to know that you [00:20:45] could actually play a part in that value chain and help, um, help deliver the care [00:20:50] that people needed was, yeah, that felt much more purposeful than what I was doing before. And so I think [00:20:55] that started me back on the thoughts of, well, maybe I should go and look back at medicine. It was nice. [00:21:00] It was nice to move into that.

Payman Langroudi: So then what went wrong with that?

Henry Totterdell: What went wrong? Well.

Payman Langroudi: Why [00:21:05] didn’t you, you know, you know, you could have whatever. You could have gone deeper into that field.

Henry Totterdell: Absolutely. Could have [00:21:10] stayed deeper in that field. Um, what went wrong? Probably a couple [00:21:15] of things. I think an itch to do medicine never went away. I wouldn’t say something necessarily went [00:21:20] wrong with that. I just sort of started to ask myself, like, I guess I was given the [00:21:25] opportunity a couple of times to shape what my job would look like there. And each time I couldn’t couldn’t [00:21:30] pinpoint, like I could write down this job description. Sounds really good. I want to get involved with this and [00:21:35] this, but at the end of it, I wasn’t like, I can’t wait to sign that contract. And this itch to do medicine [00:21:40] didn’t go away. And I thought, well, if this keeps happening, then I need to. I [00:21:45] asked myself if I got to 70 or 80, would I regret not at least having researched [00:21:50] it and I thought I would. So I said, I’ll go and research medicine before I go any further, thinking [00:21:55] that would be enough for me to go. I’ve looked at it. I’ll bury that forever. But [00:22:00] what actually happened was I looked at it and thought, no, I really want to go in. I really want to go and study. And so at that [00:22:05] point, I said, well, I will stay working until I go and do my course. And then so yeah, found the path [00:22:10] that I actually wanted to follow.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think that’s something to do with your dad’s influence that [00:22:15] this need to do medicine?

Henry Totterdell: Maybe. Perhaps not the need to. But I think the [00:22:20] things that we find interesting, like one of the things I missed most when I transitioned, [00:22:25] I guess, into the corporate world was just using my hands like I would be, you [00:22:30] know, typing in Excel or making slide decks all the time. And I missed just like making something and [00:22:35] being a bit more creative. And I know that was something like he absolutely loved [00:22:40] about like surgery. Yeah. Surgery in particular. He could operate all day, every day. And [00:22:45] I loved doing things like he did. So like he would do all the DIY at home and build things. And I’m like, well, you know what? I love doing [00:22:50] that too. I used to my toys when I was a kid were always about building things and making things. [00:22:55] And so I think I really realised that actually I missed hugely that part of, of, um, [00:23:00] of a career and really, really needed that.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting, right? You the [00:23:05] training to become a dentist or, or an engineer. Yeah, yeah. If someone [00:23:10] has a 12 year old, I tell them, hey, get him to build things.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. [00:23:15] Oh, totally.

Payman Langroudi: You know, get him, get him into DIY and all that. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: Know how to use your hands to actually.

Payman Langroudi: Do. [00:23:20]

Henry Totterdell: Something?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. We do a composite hands on course. Depeche. Honestly, [00:23:25] once in a generation. Talent. Yeah. He says the thing that gave him the most was design and technology a [00:23:30] level.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, it doesn’t surprise me.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve got more than physics or chemistry or biology. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: One [00:23:35] of our lecturers always says that he finds the the students who have done a lot of DIY [00:23:40] or similar, they just know how to problem solve and know how to use their hands and, and achieve [00:23:45] things with what they’ve got in front of them and the tools. So it’s definitely useful.

Payman Langroudi: So how long was it between deciding [00:23:50] you were going to leave engineering and start dentistry? The [00:23:55] decision to do that and actually doing it.

Henry Totterdell: Uh, probably two and a half [00:24:00] years.

Payman Langroudi: Save some money.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. So I had to, I had to save money firstly in order to, to fund [00:24:05] it. Uh, I then had to check where I wanted to go and also reassure myself [00:24:10] that it was actually the right decision. And go through that wavering process of like, am I [00:24:15] really.

Payman Langroudi: Did you go to some dentist?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I went to shadow some dentists, gave a bunch of dentists a cool, just had coffee [00:24:20] with them, uh, you know, spoke to dentists a lot at the time. I was dating a dentist, so that was really [00:24:25] useful. Got really good insight into, uh, into it. Um, and then yeah, so two and half years and [00:24:30] then you’ve got to go through the application cycle.

Payman Langroudi: So which is tough as well, right?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, yeah. And then wait to start. [00:24:35] It’s probably one of the hardest bits. I think it’s because so many people try to get into dentistry these [00:24:40] days.

Payman Langroudi: And how do they view grads.

Henry Totterdell: Um, it varies by university. I [00:24:45] felt, uh, when I went to Bristol and I looked around, I got a real sense [00:24:50] that they were so open to people with all different backgrounds, which really then made like attracted [00:24:55] me. I was like, right, okay. Like I feel like I can, I can get into this dental school, uh, [00:25:00] other dental schools. I’d ring up and say, hey, I’ve got a degree. I’ve got these A-levels. Like, what’s [00:25:05] the approach here? And they’d be like, oh, you need, I don’t know, biology and chemistry sat in the same year. I’m like, well, I can’t, [00:25:10] I can’t do that. I set my A levels 15 years ago like this just can’t. So it was a non-starter. [00:25:15] So I went to schools that felt like I felt most welcome when I looked around. Um, [00:25:20] it’s not saying I wasn’t welcome at other schools, but they were, they were the most, you know, adaptive in their application [00:25:25] process, which, which was useful.

Payman Langroudi: And how much do you pay? You pay like regular regular. [00:25:30]

Henry Totterdell: Uk tuition fees. Uk edition this year it’s nine 500. I think it’s just gone up. And then [00:25:35] next year is a bit more.

Payman Langroudi: So it makes no difference that you’re a grad in that respect.

Henry Totterdell: No difference. No, no. The only bit I [00:25:40] can’t get is because I’ve got an undergrad degree already. I can’t get the student funding, which is a pain. Yeah. [00:25:45]

Payman Langroudi: That’s. So you had to save up?

Henry Totterdell: Yes. I had to save up. And then of course, because you’re you’re not earning for [00:25:50] five years, whereas you used to be earning it’s change of lifestyle savings to live, see friends and have fun [00:25:55] still.

Payman Langroudi: And are you are you working on the side as.

Henry Totterdell: Much as I can? Yeah. So I’ve been quite fortunate. I think the [00:26:00] first three years they’re a bit less intense than the last two. So summer, just try and get a [00:26:05] contract for sort of ten, 12 weeks. And then I’ve just I’ve just started a new [00:26:10] project actually as of yesterday with a consultancy in London that specialises in health and [00:26:15] social care. So I’ll be helping, I’ll be working with a county council looking at, uh, [00:26:20] this sort of social care around mental health and learning disabilities education.

Payman Langroudi: So for doing that all at [00:26:25] the same time as the Dental course.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. Do that on the side as much as I can. Um, so sometimes it’s [00:26:30] a couple of days a week, sometimes it’s nothing. And then I try and consolidate into the holidays what I can [00:26:35] and just basically trying to make sure that when I get to year five, I can still go and see my friends and have a have a good [00:26:40] time and enjoy life. Not just not just struggle through.

Payman Langroudi: And when you get in there as a grad, [00:26:45] yeah. Do you recognise the faces of these young 18 year olds? Like, do you see yourself in [00:26:50] them? And the I mean, obviously they’re trying to have a great time and you’re now being very serious, I guess. [00:26:55]

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Were you going out there having a good time?

Henry Totterdell: Definitely much more focussed on like, [00:27:00] I’m at university for a reason to get the degree and then like get back on with, with my [00:27:05] new career. Um, yeah, it’s really nice actually seeing them go through that transition [00:27:10] of like, I can remember the first time I left home and arrived at uni and seeing them all go through [00:27:15] that. And you just see how quickly people grow at university to like how immature I was when I went to university [00:27:20] first time around that first week, and then three years later, you, you can look back and think, [00:27:25] oh wow, I knew nothing at 18. I’m now 21 and I probably still don’t know nothing. But yeah, you really start [00:27:30] to appreciate that growth. So it’s really lovely seeing them all go through that, that journey, journey of life. [00:27:35]

Payman Langroudi: Look, you’ve had a few years to sort of understand the, the sort of different [00:27:40] areas of engineering that you could have gone into and what you enjoy and what you don’t and all [00:27:45] that. Do you would you think about going forward like it’s different if we have [00:27:50] you in front of me and another third year sitting here who just, you know, 21 [00:27:55] years old, you know, that third year could easily say, look, I’m just going to try and do [00:28:00] a bit of everything, figure out what I like, and then decide from there where I’m going. You, [00:28:05] with your sort of experience of life so far, might have a different outlook [00:28:10] on that. I mean, what I’m what I’m getting at is, for [00:28:15] me, you enjoy anything you’re really good at.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, [00:28:20] yeah, yeah. I think that’s true. I think everyone like we all.

Payman Langroudi: And you know, obviously [00:28:25] you can’t say, right. I could be really good plumber or I could be a really good vet or I could be a really good [00:28:30] rocket scientist. All right. But within dentistry, I think outside of oral surgery, which [00:28:35] is like slightly less lateral kind of skill, the rest of them, you [00:28:40] could, you could dive into any of those and enjoy the hell out [00:28:45] of them by getting better at them.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, yeah. I think that’s so true. I think that’s, [00:28:50] um, all humans are like that, right? We, we all always have a tendency to move towards the [00:28:55] things that we, we really enjoy. Yeah. I think, I think that’s one of the things that’s most exciting about dentistry is [00:29:00] that as I’m learning a new treatment. Every time I find myself enjoying more and more and more, and [00:29:05] I just can’t wait to do more of these treatments on patients, I can really learn what what I like when I’m actually [00:29:10] delivering that care to someone. Yeah. Um, and then I don’t feel I’ve [00:29:15] got that pathway mapped out yet. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I’m not necessarily saying you need to give me the full, full [00:29:20] life cycle. But but before we were talking, you were saying, you know, the idea of having a practice. Yeah. [00:29:25]

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s which is a beautiful thing.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: A beautiful thing, a practice where, you know, you set the situation [00:29:30] in that practice and you do the best you can and you perfect it and perfect it and perfect it a beautiful thing. [00:29:35]

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. So that really excites me. It’s like the idea of creating something that’s a bit more than just [00:29:40] me as a dentist in a room. I want to create an environment for, for other people [00:29:45] and also for society as well, for like for patients to come and actually get the care that they, [00:29:50] they deserve.

Payman Langroudi: And the next man can say 50 practices. Yeah. Yeah. And [00:29:55] then I’d say the sooner he decided that or she decided that the sooner, [00:30:00] the sooner you could, like, think about private equity and all the stuff that that takes. Yeah. You know, it’s not it’s [00:30:05] not like going to the bank and saying, can I borrow £500,000? It’s a much bigger situation [00:30:10] than that.

Henry Totterdell: It’s so true. I think I’ve probably set myself a deadline to get things up [00:30:15] and running with that sort of like 3 to 5 years out of the university. I want to pass a course, [00:30:20] like become a dentist. That’s step one. Do my DFT. Yeah. I’m quite excited about the idea of doing DCT [00:30:25] just because I think the clinical learning would be.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s normally that’s in a hospital [00:30:30] right?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. In a hospital one one of the things that I worry I’ll miss most when [00:30:35] I become a dentist is the bigger team. Like I’m very aware that.

Payman Langroudi: It’s much [00:30:40] more social in DCT than in practice.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. And that’s what.

Payman Langroudi: Practice is very isolating. The first time [00:30:45] you sit in it, you even feel it in in in PhD. Yeah. The first time you sit in that [00:30:50] room, which generally is the worst room in the practice because you’re the PhD. Um, with that nurse [00:30:55] and you think, is this it? Is this room everything? [00:31:00]

Henry Totterdell: That’s one of the things I think will I find hardest to adjust to you. It’ll just be me and my nurse [00:31:05] and then the patient who comes in every, I don’t know, ten minutes, perhaps you get a new patient and missing [00:31:10] that bigger team. So DCT excites me from that that point of view as well. And then I’ll spend the next [00:31:15] two to 1 to 3 years just trying to become good at dentistry and, you know, confident [00:31:20] in what I’m doing. Understanding is still huge journey to go. And then I know by that point I’ll [00:31:25] be on a track to either. Right. Let’s work out how do I get a practice set up? Or if I want [00:31:30] to specialise, like how do I go and how do I go and do that? Um, but I’m just enjoying like finding [00:31:35] each new treatment quite exciting at the moment. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so you’ve, you’ve, you’ve organised [00:31:40] these sort of extracurricular learning for your, for your peers. Yeah. [00:31:45] Out of the ones that you go through some of the things that you’ve, you’ve done. So tell me what you thought of them. [00:31:50]

Henry Totterdell: In a nutshell. It’s, uh, it’s sort of like a community to introduce the dental school students [00:31:55] to innovation that is present in dentistry right now. Um, sort of [00:32:00] stuff we don’t learn on our course every day. So we had a couple of events so far. We try and do a big, uh, [00:32:05] sort of like I guess Keystone or cornerstone event every term. Um, so one was about the [00:32:10] digital patient journey. So everything from, uh, sort of like the clinical exam. [00:32:15] So the note taking and making that digital or semi-automated with tools like Heroku followed [00:32:20] by new digital scanners, and then sort of like chairside milling. And [00:32:25] so you can see that whole patient journey from they turn up to they get definitive treatment. The next one was much [00:32:30] more about the business of dentistry. We don’t learn anything actually about business [00:32:35] in dental school from the very simple, like what is revenue? What is profit? What [00:32:40] are costs? Like, we don’t really know how much everything costs yet. We’re they’re squirting half a tube of ledermix [00:32:45] onto a thing to use a tiny pea sized amount.

Payman Langroudi: So who did you get to talk about [00:32:50] that?

Henry Totterdell: Uh, so we had, um, three speakers for that. We had one of our supervisors, [00:32:55] Brad Hall. He’s brilliant. He’s got his own practice in Bristol, but he’s just so passionate about [00:33:00] sharing his knowledge and expertise with students. So he talked to us a very [00:33:05] high level overview of what a what a practice is and everything he thinks about when when he clocks [00:33:10] off from surgery every night, what else does he think about? We then had an ex Bristol grad called Edith. [00:33:15] Edith Kagan, um, who has just set up a practice in Bristol. So he went from Bristol grad [00:33:20] to having his own practice. What was his journey like? How did he go through it? And then finally we had, um, [00:33:25] a company called Spot on Business Planning. I know them, you know them. Yeah. So they came and gave a talk on cost controllers. [00:33:30] Yeah. How do they, how do they help you actually understand what the costs are involved in every appointment? [00:33:35] And then how do you use that to maximise your revenue? Um, so that gave like a really nice [00:33:40] introduction to like what’s an endless topic for?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, which is very [00:33:45] cool. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: So that’s sort of our big events. And then we have, uh, we started to do smaller events [00:33:50] because the big ones take quite a long time to organise and you’ve got to find people to pay for pizza and things like that to get students [00:33:55] to come. So we’ve got like some brilliant, brilliant supervisors at Dental School. So we said, [00:34:00] well, how can we utilise their enthusiasm more? And so we’re now doing lunchtime lunch and learns [00:34:05] on photography with one of our supervisors. And also we’ve got several Dental microscopes [00:34:10] at the school. So having our endo leads show us how to actually use those microscopes, not just for endo, but [00:34:15] even just for taking pictures of a prep you’ve done for a filling. So, and just trying to get as many students [00:34:20] through those events as possible and, and give them a bit more to their course, a bit more around experience [00:34:25] and help them use the tools that are available to us.

Payman Langroudi: It’s super important, man, because the rate at which the Dental [00:34:30] course changes is really sluggish.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. It is. Yeah. [00:34:35]

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know what the process of changing the Dental course, what happens? Like who decides what, [00:34:40] but it doesn’t change.

Henry Totterdell: It’s a good question. A lot has to go. I think it’s probably a legacy [00:34:45] of university always being quite bureaucratic. There’s always committees, and then you’ve got the regulator that you’ve got to [00:34:50] satisfy on the side, and therefore you end up with like, well, if you want to change this on the course, we’ll do that [00:34:55] in two years time. Yeah, I’m sure it could change faster with really good communication relationship [00:35:00] with the regulator. And then sort of like a determination to be a bit more agile in [00:35:05] the school, but it takes a big change from everything.

Payman Langroudi: Scanners as far as if you weren’t doing the scanner [00:35:10] piece, does the school do a scanner piece?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. So we’re at Bristol, I don’t know. The school has a slightly different [00:35:15] setup to other dental schools. We’ve got brand new school right next to Temple Meads station [00:35:20] opened in my first year. So 2023.

Payman Langroudi: How lucky for you.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, it couldn’t have been [00:35:25] more lucky with that. Like really, really fortunate. But I think one thing they have done is sort of separated themselves from [00:35:30] the NHS. So the school is much more in control about the equipment we have and what’s in the what’s [00:35:35] in the course, what’s taught, which will allow them to move more quickly because the school decides [00:35:40] now what’s taught, but it also means they’ve been able to invest in things like scanners. So we’ve just had delivery, I think, of 11 [00:35:45] new scanners, and we’re all slowly starting to have an intro to how to use the scanner. As we’re learning [00:35:50] how to do crown preps, we can then go and learn how to scan it. So the schools really like forward thinking. It’s [00:35:55] grabbing it by the horns and saying, well, if you’ve got like, what can we do to actually get students ready for how dentistry [00:36:00] will look when they graduate? So it’s quite an exciting place to be from that point of view.

Payman Langroudi: So, so far, what sparked your interest. [00:36:05]

Henry Totterdell: In, in general dentistry? Um, so clinically, [00:36:10] I’m very, very junior, but did my first extraction the other week. Oral surgery is brilliant. [00:36:15]

Payman Langroudi: That’s a wonderful moment. The first extraction.

Henry Totterdell: It was a wonderful moment. And like the tutors there are fantastic. [00:36:20] The patients are great. You know, they’re all volunteers. So I don’t know how they feel about having people who’ve [00:36:25] never done it before, but it was just something really satisfying about, I think. I think perhaps it’s easiest to get [00:36:30] clarity on what you’re doing, like patients there with a tooth that can’t be restored or they’ve opted to have it out, [00:36:35] you give the treatment, send them home, and as long as it’s all good, you don’t need to review it. It’s done. [00:36:40] Um, so I’ve loved that. Um, and then just the other bits that I’ve absolutely loved is just [00:36:45] having a patient in the chair and just being able to help them. Um, I’m probably too junior in like other procedures [00:36:50] right now, whether it’s restorative.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a privilege, man. It’s a privilege when someone [00:36:55] trusts you to. I just had some dental work done. I hadn’t had any for [00:37:00] years and years and years. And my wife was a dentist. And she’s very, very gentle. Yeah, but [00:37:05] it’s horrible, man. It is horrible. And you have to keep remembering that because as you’re nowhere near at that moment [00:37:10] of sort of where it becomes second nature, but very soon it becomes second nature. By the time you’re [00:37:15] 50, you’re giving 20 injections a day and getting blasé about it. It’s so [00:37:20] true. But each time on the receiving end of that injection. Right.

Henry Totterdell: That’s the first one I’ve had in years.

Payman Langroudi: Horrible [00:37:25] feeling, you know, and then even a scale and polish. Isn’t that nice?

Henry Totterdell: No, it’s not.

Payman Langroudi: From the patient [00:37:30] experience.

Henry Totterdell: Especially, they catch you with the tip of the scaler. Yeah. So just having a patient in chair and being [00:37:35] able to, to help them and, and especially I’ve had patients long enough now that I can see [00:37:40] them improve on their own or just change their diet or something where I’m like, okay, [00:37:45] I’m actually having an impact on this person’s life. Then you do a filling on an anterior and you can see them look at it and [00:37:50] look at the photo of it next to you and you’re like, okay, you can just see the smile come on their face. And [00:37:55] so that bit I’m probably loving more than more than anything, I think.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, you know, the [00:38:00] funniest thing is some of the best bits of being a dentist are like patient says, thank [00:38:05] you. Yeah. And it like really means it. Yeah. It makes you feel so good because you went out of your way for them. Yeah. [00:38:10] It’s such a funny thing. You know, it shouldn’t, it shouldn’t mean that much, but it means it’s the best thing [00:38:15] about the job. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: Totally agree.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s.

Henry Totterdell: I think that’s one of the things that I really miss most in like my [00:38:20] old job was just like, not like almost not feeling like I could see what I was helping. Whereas [00:38:25] now I can and like, now I know that I’ve had an impact on someone’s life. Yeah. And you know, that might be on one hand, like, [00:38:30] really like egocentric on my side, but actually, like, I find it so rewarding [00:38:35] to know that I can make a change to that person.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s, let’s get on to the darker [00:38:40] part of the pod. Yeah. We like to talk about errors.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Clinical [00:38:45] errors.

Henry Totterdell: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: A lot of us made our clinical errors in dental school.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I think everyone does. [00:38:50]

Payman Langroudi: I think I perforated in dental school. I, I put I put the [00:38:55] forceps around the wrong side tooth. Okay. And then realised yeah, I realised. [00:39:00] Yeah. But I think I’d injected the wrong side. By that time.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:39:05] else did I do? Well, those were the worst. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: We all got to learn. [00:39:10] Yeah, it’s part of learning. What about you? Um, there’s probably like two. Two quite simple [00:39:15] ones, I guess. Spring to mind so far. Um, one of the first times I ever scaled and polished someone, [00:39:20] they had a lot of calculus. Um, they had a mobile tooth and scaled either side of that, whereas [00:39:25] I probably should have left it because calculus was holding the tooth in, or at least keeping it more stable. [00:39:30] It needs to be removed anyway, but the patient wasn’t ready to have it removed. They didn’t know that that procedure.

Payman Langroudi: Out there [00:39:35] and then.

Henry Totterdell: It didn’t pop out. Luckily, no. And I’ve since done an impression on it and it still plenty of Vaseline. It’s still there. [00:39:40] Yeah, yeah, but it’s given me some study models. But it’s just a simple thing like that. Like the patient is expecting [00:39:45] to have to clean their teeth. The risk was they went home without a teeth, without there without [00:39:50] being consented for it. And so I felt pretty, pretty bad after that. Uh, and then another one [00:39:55] as assisting. So we all assist like the year fives, um, and just got the wrong cement out for a crown. [00:40:00] Uh, luckily it was still a suitable cement. Um, but the moment when I picked up the packaging [00:40:05] and realised that I picked the wrong cement and mixed it, we stuck the crown in with it, [00:40:10] my heart dropped and then.

Payman Langroudi: The guide asked for a different cement.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, yeah. And these two things, the packaging is [00:40:15] exactly the same. Just a different, different word. Um, it’s still some Zoe based cement. Um [00:40:20] and so yeah, mixed it up, gave it to them. We glued it on, it was stuck. And then I picked [00:40:25] it up. I was like, oh, that’s not what he asked for. I just had to, you know, you just own up. You’re like, hey, I’ve [00:40:30] made a mistake. Is this okay? And luckily, like he was like, yeah, that’s absolutely fine for this material. [00:40:35] We’re okay. And I was like, phew, thank goodness.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the worst thing that’s happened to you.

Henry Totterdell: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: But there must [00:40:40] be something else.

Henry Totterdell: Ten patient appointments so far.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I see. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: So it’s, um. Yeah, it’s [00:40:45] quite early days. You know, I’ve probably like, prodded someone a bit hard with a scaler or [00:40:50] something like that. But you know, I’ve only done two, I think two fillings so far.

Payman Langroudi: Should we get into engineering errors? [00:40:55] Oh, God.

Henry Totterdell: There were so many of those. Like just consulting. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Consulting. Oh, yeah. [00:41:00] Can you tell me a story there where you thought things could have gone better?

Henry Totterdell: Oh, gosh. There’s lots. Um, [00:41:05] there’s very simple again. So when I was a grad, it’s probably like six weeks in. I forgot to print something [00:41:10] out for someone, but it’s like an a one sheet that this guy had to present to his whole team with. And [00:41:15] I turn up and he’s like, Henry, where’s my printing? Like everyone just stood around him. Like the office is like 20 minute [00:41:20] walk away. It’s a huge dockyard. I got a dressing down that day like from him, like rightly so. Like [00:41:25] such a simple error. I had a checklist of what I needed, and I hadn’t checked, checked, checked through that. Um, [00:41:30] I’m trying to think of some other ones. Factories were always fun. Um, I, [00:41:35] I spent a year working in Canada in a meat factory. It was just [00:41:40] south of Toronto in Hamilton. Um, so we live in live in Toronto. On the weekends [00:41:45] and commute down to Hamilton. I love Toronto. I just love Canada.

Payman Langroudi: Me too.

Henry Totterdell: There’s something [00:41:50] so.

Payman Langroudi: Good. Canadians.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. And, um, uh, I’m trying to think of the specifics [00:41:55] around the example, but this is a meat processing facility. It was all about making sliced [00:42:00] ham for companies like subway or the equivalent that they have in, in Canada. And [00:42:05] so you could change a setting on that slicing machine, and you go from neat stacks of ham to like just an [00:42:10] enormous pile. And I remember one time we were trying to change some settings in [00:42:15] order to make the. There were two things. Firstly, can it slice faster so you can get through each log of ham more [00:42:20] quickly, but also, can you get those stacks to stack perfectly so they go straight into the [00:42:25] the packaging. And we made an error where these, uh, these, these basically was jamming [00:42:30] up the sealing machine. So like ham was not sitting inside. It’s jamming up. And again, I just remember that was [00:42:35] due to us changing the settings, and the lion man just picked up this pile of ham and just slams it against [00:42:40] the wall. And he was like, really? Like, I loved it because he was a super like, emotional. You knew exactly what he was thinking. [00:42:45] He was so emotional and like, wore his heart on his sleeve. But at that moment, like the whole line just stopped. [00:42:50]

Payman Langroudi: And so manufacturing is so interesting. I’ve got a couple of friends in manufacturing, and once I went to a one [00:42:55] of their events, like a trade show where they buy machines. Yeah. [00:43:00] And I was so surprised, like the, if you buy the, if you’re buying some line that [00:43:05] makes something like a chocolate bar. Yeah, the number of chocolate bars per [00:43:10] minute that it puts out can double or triple the price of that machine. Yeah, just [00:43:15] the speed of it.

Henry Totterdell: It’s amazing. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so interesting. And when we’re talking machines, they’re like £1 million [00:43:20] each. Suddenly it’s a 2 million or £3 million machine that does the same thing quicker.

Henry Totterdell: But when they [00:43:25] make, you know, what was in the ready meal factory, we’re making a million meals a week, right? Yeah. [00:43:30] You need a machine that can perform reliably and with with very little waste [00:43:35] like manufacturing margins, particularly in commoditized things like food and drink, are so low [00:43:40] that, you know, £100 million factory might only make £1 million a year on top. So everything has [00:43:45] to be ship shaped.

Payman Langroudi: Did you not think of starting your own engineering [00:43:50] business?

Henry Totterdell: Um, I mean, the idea I danced with the idea.

Payman Langroudi: Because that would have that would [00:43:55] have given you meaning as well. Right. It would have your own business. You could have focussed it on any aspect. [00:44:00] Yeah. Did you, did you sort of have a risk issue with it or was the call of medicine [00:44:05] was too strong or what was it.

Henry Totterdell: Probably I’m quite open to risk. I think the fact [00:44:10] I’ve gone back to studying. Yeah. That’s like probably the sort of like I’ll jump in and [00:44:15] think later about the consequences. Not with everything. I know when to like, I need to understand the risk first. [00:44:20] Probably a bit of like, I probably didn’t feel I was strong enough at anything to say, [00:44:25] hey, I, I’ve got a brand around this skill that I can set up my own business for and [00:44:30] that’s probably the limiting factor. It would have been great fun to do, but I think a few [00:44:35] years away being nearly strong enough to to do that. So I just don’t think I’d have been very good at it. Yeah. [00:44:40] Or or not ready to do it or not. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not for everyone, right. It’s not for everyone at [00:44:45] all.

Henry Totterdell: I was going to see it much more clearly of how I’d get there as a dentist. I [00:44:50] can really see that path and and map it out.

Payman Langroudi: What’s a lecture [00:44:55] that comes to mind if I say some some lecture? By the way, feel free [00:45:00] to go in both directions. A lecture that really stands out to you. That sort of rang [00:45:05] as a brilliant lecture.

Henry Totterdell: I’ve got a few. Um there’s one I always remember from [00:45:10] my engineering days. I think it was my probably my third year and it was uh, the [00:45:15] combustion engine had just started that module and the lecturer walks in, covers all the smoke [00:45:20] alarms and then just sets lights, this thing at the front of the class. And what it turns out to be is like an [00:45:25] old beans can. He’s just drilled a little hole in the top, put some fuel in and set fire to it. And that’s the [00:45:30] most simple engine you can get because then you just get this pop, pop pop pop pop pop pop, pop as the you know, it [00:45:35] explodes, goes out, comes back. And then I just remember that because it just captivated me. [00:45:40] And I was like, right, I know why I’m doing this module. Um, and then more recently at dental school, there’s probably [00:45:45] been a couple, we had a evening lecture once by a guy called Doctor Nasser. Yeah, [00:45:50] yeah. The implantologist. Um, not that that’s a phrase, is it? I never know what [00:45:55] it is.

Payman Langroudi: People say.

Henry Totterdell: It. Yeah. Um but he came and showed his work and what he does and went [00:46:00] through 3 or 4 cases one evening at the dental school. And it really, I think it just [00:46:05] really opened my eyes to like how far you can go in dentistry. And that learning never stops. And, [00:46:10] you know, you can really focus down one narrow niche and become so incredibly good at it and [00:46:15] passionate. And that’s what gave me that buzz of like, cool, I can, I can see, see where I’m going. [00:46:20] Um, what can I think of for a more junior lecture? [00:46:25] Let me just check.

Payman Langroudi: I can. You’re good with blood.

Henry Totterdell: Oh, I’m absolutely fine [00:46:30] with blood. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you think implantology surgery? Oral surgery?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. I’ve never been particularly [00:46:35] squeamish or anything like that.

Payman Langroudi: So squeamish. But. But, you know, like, some dentists just script [00:46:40] themselves and think. I’m not going to be a surgeon.

Henry Totterdell: No, I like that idea. Yeah. Not necessarily [00:46:45] of like all the blood and stuff, but like, I just it doesn’t put me off like, yeah, [00:46:50] well, it comes on.

Payman Langroudi: Super focusing on, on implants and yeah. Or perio [00:46:55] or, or surgery because I think there’s such a shortage of dentists who are happy [00:47:00] to jump into that area.

Henry Totterdell: No, I’d be quite excited to. Yeah. I’ve never, never been put off by that that [00:47:05] at all. But no, the implants bits got me thinking about another lecture again. It was another evening one, um [00:47:10] a guy called Pratik who’s just set up, it’s a Swindon dental clinic, [00:47:15] something like that. He’s part of the ITI but he just came to give an evening lecture on, uh, [00:47:20] just how do you care for an implant? And he just communicated so, so simply [00:47:25] like just quite complex ideas and made it so open to like me as a student. And yet all [00:47:30] the other dentists who are sat in the room who do implants day in and day out and it just yeah, [00:47:35] part of that just made me think, cool, that’s really great teaching. Um, I feel way more confident. I [00:47:40] feel welcome in this community. And yeah, it was really nice because that’s what I’m searching for. As I, as I [00:47:45] go through my training.

Payman Langroudi: We get some, uh, students onto our composite course [00:47:50] to watch. You know, they don’t, we don’t give them the hands on bit. Yeah, but just to [00:47:55] watch and it’s so interesting, like how they, they’ve never seen some of them have never seen anything [00:48:00] like that. Yeah. And so inspired.

Henry Totterdell: I can imagine.

Payman Langroudi: So inspired. [00:48:05] You should come by.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. I’d love to.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’ll organise that.

Henry Totterdell: Oh thank you.

Payman Langroudi: Um so inspired by [00:48:10] it. And the question of education itself has come up a lot for me. Um, but [00:48:15] you know, like we do a lot of education, we do a lot of online education and we do a lot of um, [00:48:20] in-person, um, courses and I [00:48:25] go to a lot of courses. What is it that makes [00:48:30] a course brilliant? Over, over one that isn’t so brilliant. Right.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, [00:48:35] that’s a good question, I think.

Payman Langroudi: And you’ve set up these courses basically we might [00:48:40] as well call them courses. I mean you’re not you’re not selling tickets to them, but they are courses.

Henry Totterdell: I think you’ve got to focus on outcomes. [00:48:45] Like what can that person take away? They can actually action, um, especially in a practical session. [00:48:50] And for that person to actually go away thinking that they can do, do it. So you give them confidence. [00:48:55] I think if you spend half the day just, I don’t know, waffling about yourself or. [00:49:00]

Payman Langroudi: No, but you say outcomes, but like, you know, Amy showed a case. Yeah. You’re not, you’re not going to action [00:49:05] that the day after tomorrow. But but the inspiration piece is as important.

Henry Totterdell: I think it’s so important. [00:49:10] Yeah. And I guess it depends like, what is the goal of the course? Like the goal of me going to that course [00:49:15] was to have my eyes open to more about dentistry and the industry I’m getting into. Therefore, [00:49:20] I got everything I wanted wanted from it. I guess if it was a practical course you [00:49:25] want much more about, I can go away confident that I can actually do what. I’ve come to this course to learn [00:49:30] to do. Um, so yeah, I think you’ve got to think about it. What’s the goal? Why has the course been put on? Um, [00:49:35] I.

Payman Langroudi: Think a really important goal of if I’m, if I’m going to, especially post Covid, right, where [00:49:40] you can get a bunch of information online, a really important course of a goal of a [00:49:45] course is to meet people. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: Totally.

Payman Langroudi: To bounce ideas off each [00:49:50] other there. Yeah. But also to have these people to call on [00:49:55] later. Yeah. Even though we’ve got much more communities, [00:50:00] if, if you want to call it like, I don’t know, you could, there could be a dentist in Peru [00:50:05] who you feel as close to as someone who sat next to you at a course because you’re on [00:50:10] Instagram.

Henry Totterdell: Constantly.

Payman Langroudi: Messaging him. Yeah, there is something special. If you’re going to get up and leave [00:50:15] your house and go to this Event. Yeah. Something has to happen [00:50:20] for me. Something has to happen that makes it worth leaving your house.

Henry Totterdell: I couldn’t agree more. [00:50:25] Yeah, I think.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a.

Henry Totterdell: Magic thing is so important.

Payman Langroudi: But there’s a magic in whatever [00:50:30] robots and AI come in, there’s going to be, you know, breaking bread with your [00:50:35] family or with your peers isn’t going to get replaced by AI. Yeah. So there’s [00:50:40] a magic in humans, you know, why do I bother getting you to come to the studio rather [00:50:45] than we could have done this all on Zoom. There’s a, there’s a magic in humans being next [00:50:50] to each other and interacting.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. I think like humans must exist to [00:50:55] like connect with each other.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Henry Totterdell: And to build relationships. That was one of the hardest things when going to dental [00:51:00] school. Actually. A lot of lectures now are online. Yeah. So pre-recorded and you’re like, oh, [00:51:05] I’m just sat here. Me and my screen. Yeah. Like I think the thing that that leads us to miss [00:51:10] out on most is sitting with our peers all day, every day being like, what did you think of that lecture? Like, what did you learn? Like, [00:51:15] did you understand this? Yeah. And I think you’re spot on with like, if you go somewhere, it is because you build connection [00:51:20] as well as you get the, the key objects of the course. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So I’m doing this ministry [00:51:25] of sound, which I told you about. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: No, that sounds super exciting.

Payman Langroudi: Really, really focussed on that. One thing I find really [00:51:30] difficult is, is changing the energy in the room. And like sometimes just [00:51:35] some, some speakers, some rooms, some lighting energy is down. Yeah. Right. [00:51:40] In this place, you can push a couple of buttons and you can completely handle the energy.

Henry Totterdell: It’s one of the skills of [00:51:45] a DJ, right? You can read a room and make those subtle differences just by pressing play.

Payman Langroudi: On.

Henry Totterdell: The [00:51:50] lights, the smoke, or the next song. Yeah. It’s, uh, it’s a, a tough, uh, [00:51:55] a tough skill. I think that especially if you struggle with like some, some people, you can just listen to [00:52:00] all day when they talk and they’ve just got this natural energy, charisma. And I think people who are super passionate [00:52:05] about what they do, like just always interesting to listen about, like they just emanate [00:52:10] energy and passion. And I think if you don’t have that, it can be be very, very hard.

Payman Langroudi: But, [00:52:15] you know, as as a dentist, one of the key skills is, is soft skills, [00:52:20] right? And you’ll, you’ll notice as you become more involved [00:52:25] that you’ll find some of your friends have got one and not the other. Mhm. Yeah. [00:52:30] And, and some have both. Yeah. Some have neither. Yeah. Um, [00:52:35] but so interesting, insomuch as from the patient’s perspective. I [00:52:40] can’t tell what you’re up to in my mouth.

Henry Totterdell: Oh. No idea.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So most [00:52:45] of what a really diligent dentist does is kind of for himself in a way. Of [00:52:50] course it’s for the patient, but no one, no one will know about about that. The [00:52:55] way that you wedged that matrix. Yeah. Not even your nurse can really see what’s [00:53:00] going on. So true. Yeah. And and so okay, we do that. That’s what being a professional [00:53:05] is, right? Is, is, is what you do when no one else is looking. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: That’s the integrity. [00:53:10]

Payman Langroudi: Defines. Defines a professional. Over every other category of person. Right. [00:53:15] Integrity. Um, but the soft skills are even [00:53:20] more important in a way.

Henry Totterdell: That’s so important. Yeah. Yeah. It’s, um, I think people.

Payman Langroudi: Often [00:53:25] look like you’ve got those. You’re like very naturally good at talking and connecting and all that.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is that something [00:53:30] that’s developed in like, like accelerated development of that while you’ve been in dental school?

Henry Totterdell: I [00:53:35] think I think most of it developed that first time I went to uni and then through consulting a consultant. Yeah. [00:53:40] It was, you’d have to have that, um, just confidence. [00:53:45] You could walk into a room of 100 people and just say hi and find the person you needed to talk [00:53:50] to. And so you’ve got very good at just talking to anyone and everyone. Um, and then I think, I think [00:53:55] probably also just grew into it as I got older through well through first time at university and then dental school, [00:54:00] I guess is helping, uh, cement that. It’s certainly making me think more about, um, how [00:54:05] do I understand the person in front of me and work out what’s important to them? Like, are they the engineer who [00:54:10] wants to know absolutely everything that you’re doing in my mouth. Or do they actually just care more that they’re going to get the procedure [00:54:15] at the end, and they’re comfortable just knowing that they don’t want to know the details because it makes them feel squeamish.

Payman Langroudi: And the emotional [00:54:20] intelligence to, to understand which is which. And one big mistake I see young dentists make [00:54:25] is they download everything in their head into the patient. Oh.

Henry Totterdell: Just I must read all of this off because [00:54:30] that’s how I do it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And it’s kind of sometimes it’s interesting to us. Yeah. Sometimes they think they’re being a really [00:54:35] good dentist by telling the patient everything. But very rare that a patient wants to know the details [00:54:40] of the way you’re going to cut. Yeah. It’s so true. They’re much more interested in the outcome. Yeah. That’s [00:54:45] that’s something.

Henry Totterdell: I think often. Yeah. And I most will tell you how much they want to know as well. And you can gauge it like if they [00:54:50] start asking more questions.

Payman Langroudi: Intelligent. Yeah. But a lot of, a lot of us are so busy trying to just [00:54:55] get through this moment that we forget that that’s a key point. Yeah. How [00:55:00] much does the patient should the patient know about this? Yeah. I mean, the patient doesn’t need to know which [00:55:05] anaesthetic you’re using for the sake of.

Henry Totterdell: They just want to know, will I feel pain? Yeah. And like, for how long? [00:55:10] Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly. Right. Um, so that’s one mistake I see. And then the other mistake I see sometimes is too [00:55:15] many choices. Mhm. Um, you know, we’re taught that sort of surgical sieve way of doing [00:55:20] things, you know, missing tooth. It could be a denture.

Henry Totterdell: It could be a bridge.

Payman Langroudi: Every single [00:55:25] tell them every single one and not make a recommendation. Yeah. Because, you know, we think, oh, it’s patient [00:55:30] centred. The patient decides it’s all well and good. But you know, whenever you’re in that [00:55:35] situation, you know, I’ve got a lawyer sometimes. Yeah. And he’s saying these are the three ways we could go. The difference between a good lawyer [00:55:40] and a great lawyer is which way would you go? Yeah, yeah.

Henry Totterdell: And they know which one’s right for you. [00:55:45] Yeah. Yeah. Because they understand you. It’s so true. I think on our consent forms, there’s always [00:55:50] the. What other options can you do? And you have to be like, we can do all of these things and just tell them. But you tend to [00:55:55] skip over those not not fully, but just give the lightweight intro of what they are. Yeah. But yeah. [00:56:00]

Payman Langroudi: Something else I would, I would sort of caution you on is as, as a junior, [00:56:05] you think that if you go through all the things that could go wrong, you’re kind of scaring [00:56:10] the patient or you’re putting them off the treatment. But it’s kind [00:56:15] of reassuring, kind of reassuring to know that, you know, what could go wrong. Yeah. You know.

Henry Totterdell: The [00:56:20] hard one to get right though.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah. It’s a delicate needle to dance.

Henry Totterdell: Patient come back and be like, oh, you [00:56:25] never said that. Yeah. Yeah. You do want them to.

Payman Langroudi: And the other important [00:56:30] best three words you can learn is, um, I don’t know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember [00:56:35] as a young dentist thinking I’m never allowed to say, I don’t know.

Henry Totterdell: And it’s so important to [00:56:40] know when to stop.

Payman Langroudi: No, but I don’t know. It’s such an important like, now when I talk to anyone, anyone, [00:56:45] and they say, I don’t know. I respect them more, not less. You know, [00:56:50] the last thing I want is someone who’s just making it up. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: If you don’t say, I don’t know, it gets you into so much trouble. [00:56:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: Like you just say, oh, I can work that out. It’s like, well, can you. And then you come back and you fail and they’re [00:57:00] like, instantly. And it just builds trust, right? The moment you I.

Payman Langroudi: Mean, I had, I had it, I had it in my head [00:57:05] that patients think once you’ve done an examination that might have taken 20 minutes, you must [00:57:10] know what happens next. That should be a simple process. Step two. And then [00:57:15] I look at some of the top dentists in the country sometimes spend four hours thinking about which [00:57:20] way to go.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, but there’s so many different permutations of all the treatment you can do. I’ve really, [00:57:25] really started to see that that difference when I talked about oral surgery. And then I go on to restorative, [00:57:30] like the restorative permutations of like, what do you do all this treatment in?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:57:35] I mean, you get three, three dentists, five treatment plans.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. It’s so true.

Payman Langroudi: That’s really true. [00:57:40]

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. And then like two patients with exactly the same problems, but like two different treatment plans again, because [00:57:45] it suits them and it’s right for them.

Payman Langroudi: What regrets have you got? Do you [00:57:50] regret coming into it as late as you did? Would you sort of maybe not done the pharmaceutical [00:57:55] job or whatever?

Henry Totterdell: Oh yes and no. I mean, I would never [00:58:00] have been ready to do it, I think. Five years ago, just financially, [00:58:05] probably more than anything. Um, I would love to have, I think worked out. [00:58:10] If I go back, I’d like to know what I could do. Like 15 years ago that [00:58:15] would have helped me get greater clarity on what I really would love in work. It’s probably [00:58:20] like that million dollar question. Like nobody, like you can’t quite crack it. If someone can crack [00:58:25] that, then like it’ll change our education system and like careers of people forever. Uh, that’s probably [00:58:30] like, I don’t feel like I can really regret it though, because I don’t feel like it’s something I didn’t learn. [00:58:35]

Payman Langroudi: It’s a funny word. Yeah, it’s a funny word, but you seem like quite an ambitious person.

Henry Totterdell: I feel yeah, fairly ambitious. [00:58:40] I would like to I would love to have done this earlier in life. Like that’s probably if I could change one thing, [00:58:45] it would be to have done it, done it earlier because I just feel like quite excited about the, the course [00:58:50] I’m on now. I can really see where I’m going. I can see all the different routes and almost like the logic that I’ll take [00:58:55] to decide which one I’ll go down. So yeah, I wouldn’t say a huge, huge regrets.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:59:00] like that, man. I like that, you know, the I remember the the grad [00:59:05] in my course. He was very good. He was very good as well. But the rest of us were getting drunk. [00:59:10] He was working shit out. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: I try and get the balance right. [00:59:15]

Payman Langroudi: You know.

Henry Totterdell: There’s two bits to dental school, isn’t there? There’s the. You’ve got to pass your exams, which are like all [00:59:20] the the academia. And then there’s becoming a dentist. I’m really trying to focus on the like [00:59:25] becoming a dentist, like passed the exams I need to and make sure I’m safe and like have the [00:59:30] background knowledge. I do, but actually.

Payman Langroudi: But do you have something in your head that’s kind of saying, oh, I’m behind. I [00:59:35] better hurry up. Is that is that part of your thinking?

Henry Totterdell: Not not [00:59:40] really. I think because I was there when I was a grad, I was probably like 2 or 3 years older than my manager [00:59:45] sometimes. And so I’ve always been quite comfortable with the fact that there’s people who are far younger than me who [00:59:50] will be way better than me, and they always will. They’ll always be there. You know, that prodigy or the genius who comes [00:59:55] along and.

Payman Langroudi: Just.

Henry Totterdell: Absolutely nails it first time round. Like sometimes I probably [01:00:00] one of the things I find hardest actually is like, I feel like I’ve paused everything and it’s a long pause. [01:00:05] And so now I see all my friends continue to excel and it’s so lovely, like watching them do well. But sometimes like, [01:00:10] oh, I wish I could have that. I’m progressing a little bit more because Dental still does feel quite slow, [01:00:15] but I.

Payman Langroudi: Wouldn’t.

Henry Totterdell: I wouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Worry about it. I remember, you know, like with doctors, you get this all the time, right? [01:00:20] I remember having a few of my doctor friends so ambitious. I want to be [01:00:25] a, the youngest consultant in, in, in the, in his cohort. [01:00:30] And you think why man? Yeah. What if he became a consultant three years after the youngest [01:00:35] consultant? Yeah, yeah. What would be the problem with that? What would be the problem with that? You know, nothing [01:00:40] but putting himself in a massive pressure, you know, regarding that notion of what you don’t want to [01:00:45] waste a year. Yeah, yeah. Um, now with you. Okay. It’s been, you know, a good 14 [01:00:50] years.

Henry Totterdell: 14, 15.

Payman Langroudi: Years that you could have started dentistry before. But it’s, [01:00:55] it’s Destructive force. Yeah, I think to worry too [01:01:00] much about anything like that, you’ll be left behind or whatever else.

Henry Totterdell: I much prefer focusing on like, well, where [01:01:05] am I now? Yeah. And what am I doing to make sure that the steps ahead of me are delivered as best I can? [01:01:10] Definitely like, because like you say, you can spend forever looking backwards. But actually it’s, you’ve [01:01:15] got to focus on what.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve done an amazing thing. Yeah. The combination of your skills. I’ve [01:01:20] not come across before.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. It’s interesting one, there’s not many.

Payman Langroudi: Have you come across anyone who was an engineer who’s become a dentist? [01:01:25]

Henry Totterdell: I’ve bumped into people who’ve done engineering, then gone very quickly into dentistry. There’s a guy in our final [01:01:30] year who I think did an engineering degree first, but I don’t meet many people who then gone and done a sort [01:01:35] of 1010 year career stint before then packing it all in and coming back. So yeah, it’s quite unusual. [01:01:40] It’s quite fun.

Payman Langroudi: Where do you see dentistry going with your engineering brain on? [01:01:45]

Henry Totterdell: Oh God, where do I see it going? Um, I think it’d be really [01:01:50] interesting to see how we include more automation, particularly like mechanical automation will [01:01:55] that like, where will patients be comfortable with having machines doing things in their mouths? [01:02:00] Not not humans. And can we get machines to have like the sufficient tolerance [01:02:05] and control in order to do crown preps and things perfectly? Definitely that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, definitely. [01:02:10] The second part of your question.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. You know, and like, you know, you can have that tolerance on that prep. So I think it’d be [01:02:15] interesting to see where that goes. I mean, digital pathways are so ingrained now. [01:02:20] I just see that becoming quite ubiquitous. Uh, such.

Payman Langroudi: An interesting thing. So you’re saying that you [01:02:25] see in the next eight years. Yeah. Let’s say a machine that’s fully [01:02:30] capable of.

Henry Totterdell: Well, I don’t know how far away that is, but what are the fundamentals of it exist [01:02:35] for me.

Payman Langroudi: For me. Look, the brain, the GPT in eight years time would be amazing. Yeah. Then all we’re talking [01:02:40] is hands and eyes, right? I mean, come on, that’s it. Can’t they figure it out? Well, we’ve.

Henry Totterdell: Got the motor control. Like you can [01:02:45] mill a crown in a chair side. Yeah. All you need is one on the end of a six axis [01:02:50] robot arm that can just roll around in the mouth.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t see that as a problem. So that’s there. The hand and eyes and [01:02:55] all that. I don’t see what you said before. What will patients accept the empathy? I think that’s part [01:03:00] of it.

Henry Totterdell: That’s going to be the tougher step to take is, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Because because it’s scary [01:03:05] and all that. Um, but then at the same time, my, my cousin’s an eye surgeon, [01:03:10] you know, and, you know, whether or not it’s him sticking a needle in your eye [01:03:15] or this machine sticking a needle in your eye. I’m not sure, man. Yeah. I. [01:03:20]

Henry Totterdell: I think it’s maybe like one of the same challenges. We’re talking about Waymo earlier. Yeah. Like it’s [01:03:25] taking people a long time to accept they can get into a car without a driver. Yeah. Just because they feel like they’re out of control. [01:03:30] I think it’s probably a similar like if you’re asleep under general anaesthetic, people probably don’t [01:03:35] care.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Henry Totterdell: Or they care, but not in the same way. But when it’s actually they’ve got a machine coming to like will it [01:03:40] stop. Won’t it stop. Like I don’t have enough trust yet of this. I think once we overcome that hurdle, [01:03:45] we’ll then probably quite quickly move into.

Payman Langroudi: I think what’s so interesting is how everything’s a bit rubbish, [01:03:50] Like everything can be improved.

Henry Totterdell: In what way?

Payman Langroudi: Everything is rubbish, isn’t it?

Henry Totterdell: I o [01:03:55] in the world or in the world, like. And certification or whatever it is where.

Payman Langroudi: Something’s wrong, I don’t [01:04:00] know. Uh, the phones kind of good. Yeah. Yeah. Um. What else is good? Like [01:04:05] nothing else is good.

Henry Totterdell: It sometimes feels that way. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: My point is, like [01:04:10] every service, every, every hotel and restaurant is could be a lot better. [01:04:15] Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: It’s true.

Payman Langroudi: Every product in dentistry, like almost every move [01:04:20] we make, you feel like it’s a bit rubbish. Yeah. Yeah. So someone with a brain like yours. [01:04:25] Yeah. Could really make some interesting changes.

Henry Totterdell: It would be quite exciting. [01:04:30] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And especially because you’ve been in pharmaceutical. Yeah. You understand that? You know what that sort of supply [01:04:35] chain kind of thing is. Um, and all the consulting, all the different things that you’ve seen in consulting, [01:04:40] um, if I were you, I’d cast my net a little bit further than. [01:04:45]

Henry Totterdell: Just.

Payman Langroudi: I’m going to be a single surgery practice owner. Yeah. By the way, [01:04:50] by the way, amazing thing being a single surgery owner. Amazing thing. Wonderful. One of the most [01:04:55] happy people I know, or types of people I know are people who have a single surgery [01:05:00] because the king of that castle. They do things exactly how they want to do it. Treat your patients [01:05:05] well, treat your team well, and you’re pretty much happy life. Happy life. You know, you can go on holiday, you can [01:05:10] send your kids to private school, whatever it is. Yeah. But it’s such a unique set of skills you’ve got [01:05:15] now.

Henry Totterdell: I’d love to learn more about what’s happening in that world, actually of dentistry. Like who are the movers [01:05:20] and shakers who are actually exploring? How do we get machines into.

Payman Langroudi: You know, about Zuckerberg’s [01:05:25] dad?

Henry Totterdell: I know nothing about Zuckerberg’s dad.

Payman Langroudi: He’s a dentist. Is he? Yeah, and he [01:05:30] was one of the earliest investors in Facebook. So now he’s a billionaire.

Henry Totterdell: Oh, right. He’s done well. [01:05:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And so now he invests. He’s got a fund that invests in Dental. Yeah. It’s interesting. Start-ups. [01:05:40]

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I need to read more about this and go and explore it more because it’s a whole world of dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Imagine [01:05:45] having nano robots or whatever. You know, like there’s so much, there’s so much you could do.

Henry Totterdell: So [01:05:50] true. And we could bring the speakers to the school, start to build a network and actually, you know, start to explore what innovations [01:05:55] are out there because I think it will change. It could change quite quickly as we go.

Payman Langroudi: Nice to see you’ve got this constant smile on your [01:06:00] face.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How is it? Life hasn’t sort of taken that away from you.

Henry Totterdell: I don’t always [01:06:05] have it.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t always have it. I, I try and.

Henry Totterdell: I probably quite relentlessly optimistic. [01:06:10] I always try and think like things can be always better or things will be good and people mean [01:06:15] well. Um, yeah, I just think like, if you smile, like the world tends to smile back at you. And I think [01:06:20] it opens, it opens doors. I smile at people, say hello, and before you know it, you’re half [01:06:25] an hour into conversation. Uh, I guess it’s like how we met. I saw you at the show. I was like, oh, hey, I listened [01:06:30] to your podcast.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: And you were like, cool, let’s walk that way and talk and here I am. Yeah. No, I just [01:06:35] try and be happy as much as I can and try and focus on the things that I can impact and [01:06:40] change. Yeah. And I’m quite good at.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know such a such an optimistic guy. They want to be negative, [01:06:45] but what’s the darkest day so far in this journey?

Henry Totterdell: Oh wow.

Payman Langroudi: Or [01:06:50] what are some of what comes to mind?

Henry Totterdell: I think, um, I think how universities changed [01:06:55] through Covid compared to when I first went, when I first went, we were lucky if there were any lecture slides [01:07:00] online, it was like, you got there. There was a plastic projector with the [01:07:05] oh yeah. Oh yeah, the OHP that’s it. Or a chalkboard. Yeah, yeah. Um, and that’s what [01:07:10] I envisaged learning to be like. Whereas now like it talked about like pre-recorded online lectures. [01:07:15] I was like.

Payman Langroudi: Is it no choice to even go in?

Henry Totterdell: No, no, not for a lot of them. We have lectures [01:07:20] in person, but there’s a whole series which are just like, no, that’s how they’re delivered. And.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:07:25] it was literally Covid that did that.

Henry Totterdell: I think that was the transition. I can’t really pinpoint it. Like before that the Dental [01:07:30] school used to be in all the time. And I think this is Dental schools across the country. And I don’t think it’s helped by things like funding. [01:07:35] And, um, I think students want a very different experience now. It’s much more transactional, [01:07:40] um, university, you’re paying a lot more and you’re just like, I’m here to get this. Therefore, [01:07:45] we will do it.

Payman Langroudi: I see, I see, I see.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. And I think that’s.

Payman Langroudi: The first time round you weren’t paying as much.

Henry Totterdell: Oh, three, three [01:07:50] grand a year.

Payman Langroudi: Oh is.

Henry Totterdell: That it? Yeah. It’s great.

Payman Langroudi: Like when I went, it was free.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. Like even better.

Payman Langroudi: They even paid you. [01:07:55] They even paid you if you were. If you were. If you qualified.

Henry Totterdell: So good. Right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: You know, that’s [01:08:00] probably a conversation or debate for another day of like, how we changed.

Payman Langroudi: Did you come out of the Loughborough with, [01:08:05] uh, debt?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I had about was it maybe 30 grand, 25, 30 grand.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. [01:08:10]

Payman Langroudi: So you spent the first ten years paying that off? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: So it was, [01:08:15] that was fine, but it felt like, uh, a realistic amount to pay back off. Yeah. Whereas [01:08:20] now it feels like it’s not. But going back to yeah, darkest days, like just those, [01:08:25] like getting through all those lectures, I was like, what have I signed up for? I thought I’d be immersed in like [01:08:30] a lecture theatre right now. There are a couple of mornings I woke up and I was like, I’m in a I’m in a bad way right [01:08:35] now. I need to call my friends and like, go for a beer. Like, really? I’m on the cusp of like, throwing it all in. This [01:08:40] is what I thought I was signing up to up.

Payman Langroudi: To first year.

Henry Totterdell: Uh, first year. And then like that [01:08:45] first term of second year in that first term, there was like a six week period where we must have had about a hundred [01:08:50] lectures or 80 just shy. Um, and I was like, I’m just sat here watching a screen by [01:08:55] myself. And, you know, there’s always the, well, why don’t you go and do it with someone else? I’m like, well, they’re gonna be on a different [01:09:00] we can’t talk. I’ve got my headphones in. And so that was, I found that the toughest. And that’s [01:09:05] when I really started questioning, like, have I made the right decision here? And it was still the right. I still wasn’t [01:09:10] so far in. I could jump out and have a really interesting story to tell whoever I went to [01:09:15] try and get a job with afterwards. But that’s what I found hardest.

Payman Langroudi: And you were living out of [01:09:20] town? Not in halls.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So, so not really involved in the sort of the social [01:09:25] side.

Henry Totterdell: As, as a bath, living in bath at the time, commuting in. Um, I’m very fortunate. [01:09:30] I’ve got a really great group of friends in Bath and Bath and Bristol. They’ve all migrated out of London. [01:09:35] So I had like a really good social social scene around there. Okay. But I guess it made me [01:09:40] feel quite isolated from the course in that sense. And I wasn’t at uni to like it sounds bad, but [01:09:45] like to go and make a whole new like life and wealth of friends like I was when [01:09:50] I first went to uni where I was exploring and finding myself. Um, but.

Payman Langroudi: The [01:09:55] compounding effect of these online lectures and.

Henry Totterdell: But I did want to get involved. I did want to like get to know [01:10:00] everyone and like, as we’ve become more clinical, I get to do that more and more and more. And it’s so lovely. Like getting to know people, even [01:10:05] though we’re like completely different stages in our life. Many of us, like I found, yeah, just by, just [01:10:10] by owning the fact I’m older people are super inquisitive and it’s great, great to see them too, because they bring something [01:10:15] new to me, like new ways of learning, thinking, and yeah, people 15 years younger than [01:10:20] me. It’s great. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What pisses you off about dentistry?

Henry Totterdell: Oh, what pisses [01:10:25] me off about dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: So.

Henry Totterdell: Far? Oh, that’s that’s a good question. [01:10:30] One thing I find maybe doesn’t piss me off. I find a bit sad is how many people don’t like the dentist. [01:10:35] And it’s not like they don’t like you as a person. It’s not they don’t like you, sorry. It’s they just don’t like the dentist. [01:10:40]

Payman Langroudi: Nervous? Nervous?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. Nervous. Bad experiences. It’s a very peculiar thing, having someone you [01:10:45] don’t know put their hands in your mouth. Like barely anyone puts their hands in someone else’s [01:10:50] mouth at the best of times. So I find that a bit sad. And I’d love to find a way to [01:10:55] to change that.

Payman Langroudi: And become that dentist, right?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I become that dentist that’s really good. With nervous patients.

Henry Totterdell: It [01:11:00] would be good. I think. I often like look at people overseas in the US and like so many people I’ve [01:11:05] spoken to, they’re like, oh, I love going for my cleaning or I love going to this. And I’m like, what’s being done differently there that [01:11:10] we can’t bring over here and make that experience here? Um, that annoys [01:11:15] me. What else? Nothing. Really.

Payman Langroudi: Become that dentist. Honestly, such an important skill. [01:11:20] Yeah. It is. My wife’s really good at it. Yeah. Painless injections. Yeah. Completely painless. You [01:11:25] have no idea. There’s been an injection until it starts becoming numb.

Henry Totterdell: She is one of the systems that designed for just [01:11:30] straight up.

Payman Langroudi: She puts a lot of a topical for a long time. Yeah. Like a good seven minutes [01:11:35] of topical. I mean, you can only do this privately.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Seven minutes of topical [01:11:40] on a dry mucosa and then very gently goes and then [01:11:45] and amount of time she spends on the plunger. It’s like a long, long, long. You [01:11:50] just don’t feel it. You just don’t feel it at all. That’s good. But but just that one skill, I mean, I guess [01:11:55] she’s gentle or whatever with gentle touch after that. But that one skill she’s has patience [01:12:00] following her around practice to practice to practice.

Henry Totterdell: Makes such a difference.

Payman Langroudi: Bringing families along with them. And [01:12:05] I guess there’s that other sort of empathy side as well of, of, of, you know, when, [01:12:10] when the guy says, I’m scared, reassuring and saying, don’t worry, we do things differently. [01:12:15] It’s a massive practice builder, a massive practice builder.

Henry Totterdell: Just build that set [01:12:20] of repeatable customers.

Payman Langroudi: I had a boss like that too. Um, my God, this [01:12:25] practice was, it was by a long way the most expensive practice in the town. I mean, he was, he was very good. [01:12:30] He was very charming. He was like head of the whatever railroad rotary thing. [01:12:35] Um, and he was cool and funny and all that, but when as he [01:12:40] practised, he always told me, any time you touch the patient, make it one third the amount [01:12:45] of force that you think you should use.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, yeah. So easy. Just bang. Yeah. Just [01:12:50] pull your lip here. Yeah, yeah. Your stretches. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I’d come out of I’d done a restorative house job where the, [01:12:55] the consultant was saying actually sometimes you have to push hard [01:13:00] to get things right. And it’s true. Right. There are times where you need to push and.

Henry Totterdell: Push a lot [01:13:05] harder than you think you can as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Balance. But I’d come out of that job thinking that’s the technician [01:13:10] I am. I do what it takes. And this guy taught me that what he said. And then I saw [01:13:15] my wife as well and I realised, no, no, no, no, no. Gentle, gentle is like an MSc. [01:13:20] Yeah. It should be.

Henry Totterdell: It should be on that.

Payman Langroudi: It should be on your.

Henry Totterdell: In your. Yeah, [01:13:25] yeah, yeah. I find it interesting. She loves having all their initials after their [01:13:30] name. Yeah, I’ve never really seen that, I guess before, but that’s a very.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s [01:13:35] like a marketing thing.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I think it is. Yeah. I think it would give me more confidence as a patient.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think of what do you [01:13:40] think of the things that some people are unhappy about, things like awards ceremonies and dentistry [01:13:45] and these sort of things. How do you feel about that?

Henry Totterdell: I’ve never been to one, but [01:13:50] like from the out, like looking, looking in from the outside, I guess I quite like the idea. I [01:13:55] think it’s nice to celebrate each other. Nice to sort of stop for a moment, be like, oh, I’m [01:14:00] proud of where I’ve come and I’m proud of where I’m going. I want to show other people and [01:14:05] tell other people about that. I think it helps us like celebrate each other and celebrate the industry. It’s good. I think if it creates [01:14:10] unhealthy, sort of like competitive strategies, it can be a bit poor. There’s that. But, [01:14:15] you know, I think in general I like the idea of it in principle, I think yeah, I think it’s always good to celebrate success. [01:14:20] And you know, if anything it gives us an excuse to get together again. Yeah. And also [01:14:25] like something to help give patients that reassurance.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. But then, you know, when someone gets voted best [01:14:30] dentist in Bristol by that process. Yeah. But the actual best dentist in Bristol [01:14:35] hasn’t even.

Henry Totterdell: There is.

Payman Langroudi: Even even entered.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. There is always that risk [01:14:40] with um sort of self nominated. Yeah. Events isn’t there. Do you have to pay to like [01:14:45] become what it’s like the best graduates. You have to pay to be on that.

Payman Langroudi: You pay for the, the awards night. [01:14:50]

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: But not I don’t think it affects the result.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. Okay. So it’s not like you can only [01:14:55] enter if you are going to turn up on the night.

Payman Langroudi: No, we I get I get companies all the time say, do you [01:15:00] want to buy one of these plaques that says you’re the best teeth whitening company in Britain?

Henry Totterdell: I think you’ve gotta be very [01:15:05] careful with this. Like, yeah, I’ve just bought this title. And it’s like, [01:15:10] well, hang on. I think where there’s like real, genuine, um, genuine [01:15:15] nomination and reward or like, uh, consideration of the applicant [01:15:20] and then the outcome is good.

Payman Langroudi: Well, I think it’s genuine and I think it improves the practice a lot. [01:15:25] Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: But it gives you a reason to improve as well. I think we all like it when other people. [01:15:30]

Payman Langroudi: Don’t like.

Henry Totterdell: It.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, a lot of them don’t like it. I guess the more old school ones.

Henry Totterdell: What are the reasons for that?

Payman Langroudi: Like [01:15:35] I say, the fact that you get nominated, you get called the best dentist.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And, um, [01:15:40] you might not be. Yeah. That that gets their goat. Yeah. Um, what about [01:15:45] this? The thing that the top 50.

Henry Totterdell: Top 50. Yeah. Yeah. I remember a lot of people don’t like that. We used [01:15:50] to be on the top 50 list of like fastest growing. I think we sponsored the list. It’s like, well, of course we’re on it. [01:15:55] So little things like that. Yeah. Again, it’s getting the balance right. Like [01:16:00] who nominates I think is probably I think it’s really nice when you have ones where somebody else [01:16:05] has to nominate you. Um, and almost like without you knowing, I think that’s when you get to like the most special, [01:16:10] special reward because then it really feels like you’ve earned it because your peers recognise you as being good. [01:16:15]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, of.

Henry Totterdell: Course. And I think that’d be like the ultimate reward ceremony, I think for me.

Payman Langroudi: So you look [01:16:20] back on this journey.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s quite, quite a sort of, a journey [01:16:25] of discovery, right? Self-discovery. We [01:16:30] said often you don’t know what being an engineer is going to be like. And all of that. Do [01:16:35] you reflect back on like the your upbringing that, you know, what made [01:16:40] you so confident or confident enough to say, I’m going to do this, then I’m going to stop this [01:16:45] and I’m going to try that. Then I’m going to jump into dentistry. Yeah, it’s a confident guy that does that.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, [01:16:50] it’s quite interesting. Um, what about growing up?

Payman Langroudi: Were you always very confident? [01:16:55] Like was there an inflection point?

Henry Totterdell: Wasn’t always super confident like socially and particularly I think. Oh really? Yeah. I [01:17:00] was always like played sport and things. I think if you play sport at school you sort of team sports. Yeah. You sort of get [01:17:05] friends and yeah, it probably saves you. That’s probably a bit of a nerd through school. Um, but [01:17:10] I think, I think probably just support from my parents. Like it was never, oh, well, you’ve made that decision. You [01:17:15] must always stick with it. There was always the. Well, you can change it. Yeah. You can change. You [01:17:20] tried it like that’s, that’s the right thing to do. Like, you know, if you hadn’t [01:17:25] tried it, you’d never known. So you’ve tried it.

Payman Langroudi: So you went to your parents with these decisions and they were supportive.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, [01:17:30] I definitely spoke to my parents about it. Yeah, it’s quite interesting. My mum jumped through a lot of careers when she was growing up. So [01:17:35] I feel like maybe I’ve sort of like just got that like it’s normal, normal to do. Um, so [01:17:40] I felt I was very supportive from that point of view and was always encouraged to be like, just follow what I was interested in. [01:17:45] And there’s always a much bigger focus on, um, do what makes you happy than. [01:17:50] And that’s sort of the biggest or best outcome you can have for life than trying [01:17:55] to focus on something funny.

Payman Langroudi: I think about my Middle Eastern parents when I told them, I want to stop being a dentist and start manufacturing [01:18:00] teeth whitening products that are illegal. At the time, they were illegal. It [01:18:05] was totally different. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: I think, I think depending on what they yeah, [01:18:10] what I was doing, they might, they might draw a line somewhere. But I think if I, yeah, showed that I thought about it and had that and [01:18:15] they challenged me on it. Then it was. Yeah, they’re very supportive. Amazing. I think I [01:18:20] thought I was a bit bonkers. But it’s your journey. You do you, do you like we’ll support you and what you decide, [01:18:25] which I’m very, very lucky to have because I realise a lot of people won’t get that. That’s right. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right. It’s [01:18:30] been a massive pleasure having you, man.

Henry Totterdell: Thank you so much. It’s been a real honour.

Payman Langroudi: With the questions that we have.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, [01:18:35] sure.

Payman Langroudi: For everyone. Um, fantasy dinner party.

Henry Totterdell: Fantasy dinner party.

Payman Langroudi: Three [01:18:40] guests.

Henry Totterdell: I was thinking about this. This is a tricky one. Um, I think maybe a classic. [01:18:45] To start off. I’d have someone like Barack Obama. I just think, like, he’s [01:18:50] got a brilliant way. I think of summarising what like a good society [01:18:55] looks like and like bringing people together and always seeing like good and stuff. And he must have some amazing [01:19:00] stories and he always seems really well thought through and really well meaning in what he thinks [01:19:05] through. And I think that’s always a nice way to be. Um, and [01:19:10] then I think to help make those stories a bit funnier and like, I think, I think Brett would [01:19:15] tell them in a really good way, but I think someone like Bob Mortimer, I think he’s one of the funniest comedian. Yeah, the [01:19:20] most naturally funny people that’s ever existed. And like, he does it like he’s [01:19:25] not trying. It just seems like effortless. So I think he like, help turn [01:19:30] those brilliant, interesting stories into like, quite an exceptionally funny event. [01:19:35] Um, and then the final one is maybe a bit of a curveball. I hadn’t really [01:19:40] thought about it before. Um, starting to think about coming here. Um, I think we [01:19:45] all wonder how the pyramids were built. Yeah. And so I bring back. Is it Khufu.

Payman Langroudi: The [01:19:50] architect or whatever?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. The Pharaoh at the time whose tomb is in it and just [01:19:55] learned like, not just what society was like, but like, how did we get to having this 150 million, [01:20:00] 150 metre pyramids?

Payman Langroudi: It’s a very good point.

Henry Totterdell: And, and just I [01:20:05] think I’d answer so many questions for so many people.

Payman Langroudi: I was on different podcast. The guy said, where would you like to have [01:20:10] been flying a wall? Yeah. And I was, you know, classical Iranian, [01:20:15] uh, conspiracy theorist when they decided who was going to kill JFK. Right? But then [01:20:20] but then when I really thought about it was, you know, those events, those global sort of Ice age type [01:20:25] events, like when things start exploding. Yeah, yeah. With the dinosaurs as they’re getting extinct. [01:20:30] Just imagine, like watching that. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: You could you imagine just being like, I want to be on the moon when [01:20:35] that happens and just watch from afar.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Fly on the moon at that.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. [01:20:40] You know, you’re watching. You’d be like, wow, is this really happening?

Payman Langroudi: Final question. Yeah. Three [01:20:45] pieces of advice for your loved ones on your deathbed.

Henry Totterdell: Pieces of advice. Um, I [01:20:50] would say like smile and say hello to people. I think [01:20:55] just.

Payman Langroudi: Good at that.

Henry Totterdell: Man. Just building connections with people. Like you never know where it’s going to get you. Yeah. For sure. I was [01:21:00] on the train, not today, but two weeks ago coming to London. The guy sat next to me and he was like, oh, you’re working on a Saturday? [01:21:05] I was just typing away. I was like, oh yeah, and I could have just ended it there, but I just got chatting to him. Turns out he’s [01:21:10] the bursar at one of the Oxford colleges, and before we knew it, we had a long conversation, left his contact [01:21:15] details and was like, you know, when when you’re looking Start-Up in practice, just get in touch. And, you know, I [01:21:20] might be interested in investing. So I was like, great, okay. Um, what would be another way?

Payman Langroudi: It’s rare [01:21:25] to have both of those sides locked down, you know, the maths brain and social [01:21:30] brain together. I don’t know.

Henry Totterdell: There’s a stereotype.

Payman Langroudi: Right? Stereotype. Yeah. That’s probably [01:21:35] a.

Henry Totterdell: Third of my engineering degree. You could really see like sort of like mainly [01:21:40] mainly guys as well. Like I think 140 guys, ten girls on the course. And [01:21:45] a lot of us had probably spent a lot too much, too much time gaming and things.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, yeah. And then suddenly you [01:21:50] get the world. I think that’s the joy of uni. You suddenly meet people who are like you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:21:55]

Henry Totterdell: You never had the chance to meet at school. That’s true. Second piece of advice. Um, [01:22:00] like stay curious. I think just always be interested about the world around you and then [01:22:05] like, just don’t stop, like trying to figure out what’s going on and going on and, and figure it out. Um, [01:22:10] just because it, I think you just get enjoyment from understanding things more and more and more.

Payman Langroudi: I think [01:22:15] also as a as a I mean, you tell me, but I think as a as a counter point [01:22:20] to that to realise you can affect things. If things don’t [01:22:25] aren’t just the way they are, you could, you can change something.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. 100%.

Payman Langroudi: It’s such an important point. Yeah. Because [01:22:30] people are really good at analysing stuff. Yeah. But think that’s it. I can’t I can’t do anything about [01:22:35] any of this. It’s so, so true.

Henry Totterdell: Like and you know, you just have to accept like what, [01:22:40] what do you care about something being done about and what don’t you care? And as long as you know, like which side and [01:22:45] if you care enough about it, go and go and do something. Yeah. And then I think the final piece is, [01:22:50] uh, just say yes to things like to opportunities. Like, especially [01:22:55] when you’re young, like if you’re young and you spend a couple of hours doing something, realise you hate [01:23:00] it. So what, like you’ve learned so much from that opportunity. Um, like coming [01:23:05] along today, like, you know, just by saying hi, like I’ve ended up here talking to you and [01:23:10] who knows where that might lead, you know? Yeah. But like, just say yes to things that like help you explore and [01:23:15] help you do new things, even if it puts you outside your comfort zone. Because soon enough, you won’t feel outside your comfort [01:23:20] zone. You will feel like, oh, cool, I’m doing something. I don’t know what it is, but that’s fine. I’ve done it before. [01:23:25]

Payman Langroudi: Although the opposite advice a lot of people give as well. Yeah, just say no to things.

Henry Totterdell: That are.

Payman Langroudi: Really important. [01:23:30]

Henry Totterdell: As soon as you know that you definitely won’t like something or it’s not for you, like, yeah, be really [01:23:35] clear why, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, but like, if you’re a busy guy, if you’re a busy guy and you say yes to everything.

Henry Totterdell: You end up.

Payman Langroudi: With a problem, you end [01:23:40] up with a problem. Yeah. And so like, I don’t know, you hear this a lot with like executives are like, no, no [01:23:45] to say no quickly. Yeah. So it doesn’t take up any further of your time.

Henry Totterdell: It comes with a caveat of like, [01:23:50] no, when you like have the scope to say yes to stuff and.

Payman Langroudi: Like, but you’re absolutely [01:23:55] right at the.

Henry Totterdell: Beginning saying yes to you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely right at the beginning. Absolutely. You know, you have no [01:24:00] idea where each of these interactions could end up.

Henry Totterdell: Exactly. That. You know, a friend says, let’s go and see this. [01:24:05] Go and see it. Like, yeah, yeah, as long as you you’ll have fun. And then you soon learn what you like and don’t. [01:24:10] And then, like you say, don’t overwhelm yourself.

Payman Langroudi: A super, super enjoyable. I’m so happy I asked [01:24:15] you to come on.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. Thank you so much. It’s been such a treat to come down to London and. Yeah. See you and be on it. Really? [01:24:20] Thank you for having me. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks. Thanks for doing that, man. I really enjoyed.

Henry Totterdell: That. Thank you.

[VOICE]: This [01:24:25] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one [01:24:30] on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:24:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:24:40] for listening guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [01:24:45] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve [01:24:50] had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. [01:24:55]

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [01:25:00] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. [01:25:05] Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast comes to you from enlighten. Enlighten is an advanced teeth whitening system [00:00:05] that guarantees results on every single patient. We’ve treated hundreds of thousands of patients [00:00:10] now and have a really clear understanding of what it takes to get every patient to that delighted [00:00:15] state that we want to get to. If you want to understand teeth whitening in much further detail, join [00:00:20] us for online training. Only takes an hour. Completely free. Even if you never use [00:00:25] enlighten as a whitening system, you’ll learn loads and loads about whitening, how to talk about it, [00:00:30] how to involve your teams. Join us. Enlighten online training.com.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:40] podcast where you get to go one on one with [00:00:45] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Ali al-Hassan to the podcast [00:01:00] known as Doctor Ali Smiles. Is that it on socials? [00:01:05] Yeah just doctor Ali yeah doctor it easy.

Ali Al Hassan: Look at socials. You’ve got to keep it easy. Keep it simple.

Payman Langroudi: You are [00:01:10] a master of socials. It’s just it’s nice to have you my buddy. Good to see you. Um Ali’s [00:01:15] a young dentist. She still qualifies young don’t you. Yeah. Young dentist who is, [00:01:20] um, really making wonderful progress from super associate to, uh, [00:01:25] practice owner, um, moving around the country a lot. Um, for [00:01:30] me, maybe the, the world, the world, the world a lot on holidays, you’re [00:01:35] always on holiday.

Ali Al Hassan: Um, that’s, that’s a great thing to talk about. Work life balance. Yeah. That’s a big thing to talk. [00:01:40]

Payman Langroudi: About because, because I was going to say for me, the walking embodiment of work hard, play hard is [00:01:45] this guy. So I want to know how you pull that off as well. So lovely to have you buddy.

Ali Al Hassan: Thank you. [00:01:50] Thank you. Um, you know, I was just saying, you know, we met quite a long time ago, but, um, [00:01:55] when you were, We met a very long time ago, and then it felt like we’d [00:02:00] see each other every few years. And it’s almost like one of those like infinite, you know, like I’m investing [00:02:05] money in stocks. Like now I’m seeing you like every I got out of the Uber and you were there. I [00:02:10] was a little bit creeped out, but no, I’m just kidding. Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:02:15] we met at the BAC, d conference when you were a student.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. Fourth year. Yeah. Very long time ago.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:02:20] had that with, uh, Simon Child as well, and Richard Field and all these characters. [00:02:25] But, um, you know, you look at [00:02:30] your life from the outside. Yeah, it does look a bit like a lot of fun and everything [00:02:35] good. And you know that. But what are you struggling with?

Ali Al Hassan: Struggling [00:02:40] with? Um, I think spending, there’s a few things actually spending, [00:02:45] spending time with family. Um. Meeting [00:02:50] a lot of people makes it difficult to have meaningful relationships with like [00:02:55] a like, a few people. Oh, yeah. Um, and, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Expand [00:03:00] on that one for me a little bit.

Ali Al Hassan: Because you’ve [00:03:05] got to kind of choose how you spend your time, right? You only get it once. And so in this phase, I’m kind of like travelling [00:03:10] a lot, meeting people, making a lot of new connections inside dentistry, outside of dentistry. [00:03:15] Um, we can talk about this, but I like to travel once a month, so I’ll go somewhere [00:03:20] once a month, every single month, mostly with like a few close friends. But, but [00:03:25] you meet a lot of people and then they all want to do things. And you’ve got to kind of, uh, [00:03:30] start to pick and choose. But then, um, you don’t necessarily have as much time for, [00:03:35] uh, your family or your like OG’s or like your old friends. And then you’re in this [00:03:40] situation where you’re like, how do I delegate my time? What do I actually want to do? And if I [00:03:45] do what I want to do, does that make me a good person or a bad person? Or am I just doing what I want to do? Yeah. Um, [00:03:50] but, uh, I think, uh, there’s [00:03:55] a saying, um, uh, this lady said, uh, Layla Hormozi. Alex Hormozi wife. [00:04:00] Yeah. She said, you can’t have the 50% good without the 50% bad. And that [00:04:05] really resonated with me. I genuinely think like, whatever stage you are in life, whatever, [00:04:10] whatever you’re doing, no matter how successful you are. Um.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:04:15] sacrifice.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, exactly. The only way you can have the good is if you have like the, uh, [00:04:20] oftentimes equal amount bad and you’re like, you’re grateful for all the good you have, but you’re also [00:04:25] you, you learn the lessons and you reflect on the bad part. And that’s just part of being a human. And it’s, [00:04:30] and it’s, and you have to accept it. Um, you know, you highs and lows, you know, uh, [00:04:35] peaks and troughs, it kind of all comes together. You just choose where your peaks are and where your troughs are, and then you [00:04:40] kind of live with it.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, like that classic cliche of don’t ponder on either of them [00:04:45] too much. Yeah. You know, because I definitely don’t ponder on the troughs too much. Definitely [00:04:50] not that. Yeah. But also don’t ponder on the peaks too much because they’re all so transient, [00:04:55] you know? Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Just just be just be present. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. And often, [00:05:00] right at your age, you’re kind of being taught by society who [00:05:05] you are kind of thing. Yeah. And that’s a, that’s a worry because society [00:05:10] teaches in sort of broad strokes without nuance.

Ali Al Hassan: Tries to put you in [00:05:15] a box.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And so you end up kind of believing what people say about you. And that can take you [00:05:20] in both directions too far. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: 100%. You know, and dentistry [00:05:25] is very much it’s like a personification of that, right? Especially even people who become dentists, right? [00:05:30] We all kind of envisaged it when we were younger. Yeah. We worried about it, stressed [00:05:35] about it.

Payman Langroudi: Talking about it.

Ali Al Hassan: Did our A-levels. And it’s like everything on your mind. You do the [00:05:40] you do the university, you get the grades and then you’re in dental school and you’re like, it’s going to be easy, but it’s not. And then [00:05:45] dental school is really difficult and everyone has their issues with dental school or whatever, you know. I [00:05:50] had a tutor trying to. I’m sure everyone has this. I feel like everyone has a story like this, but there’s always someone in dental [00:05:55] school who’s trying to make sure you don’t graduate. I feel like I’m sure you had that too. I had that there’s always [00:06:00] someone who’s trying to like gatekeep you and then, um, and then you graduate and you’re like, well, now it’s going to be easy. And [00:06:05] then you’re in the dental world and it’s like, and you follow that path and you’re like, I’m going to be an associate. I’ll start [00:06:10] doing NHS and then I’ll move into private and people will trust me to like pay money to look [00:06:15] after their teeth. And then one day I’ll be a practice owner. And then that’s like the pathway that’s kind of set for you. [00:06:20] Yeah. Um, I’d like to think that I’ve kind of broken out of it [00:06:25] in terms of like, I do a few things outside, but also I really do, um, [00:06:30] I enjoy dentistry, I’m very grateful for it.

Ali Al Hassan: And I’m thankful for my parents for kind of pushing me that way. Um, [00:06:35] I tell people, you know, they’re like, um, why did you choose dentistry? I was like, my dad told [00:06:40] me I could do whatever I want growing up as long as it’s medicine or dentistry. So, um, [00:06:45] So, so so I picked dentistry. Um, [00:06:50] but it is a very, you know, it’s, I as you agree, it’s an amazing career. It gives you a lot [00:06:55] of freedom. You can do so many different things. And, um, you know, in the same token that there [00:07:00] is a pathway, you can obviously branch out and do things at your own pace and kind of do other things. Um, [00:07:05] so, so I’m grateful for that. But you’re totally true general society. They put you in [00:07:10] a box. They want you to be a worker. Um, you know, they don’t want you to be entrepreneurial. They don’t want you to have [00:07:15] your own business. They just want to put you as a cog in the system. Hmrc is taking the tax. [00:07:20] I’m fully on that thing that you need to kind of break out of the get out of the matrix.

Payman Langroudi: At [00:07:25] the same time, the matrix is um, one of the reasons we’re in it is because the matrix [00:07:30] is so clear. Yeah, yeah. You know, the, you know, the whole start your own practice thing. It’s [00:07:35] a brilliant little life, man. It’s a brilliant little life for someone who wants to, you know, [00:07:40] be of service to their community, send their kids to private school, go on a holiday. [00:07:45] You know, it’s a brilliant little life, man. Yeah. Yeah. So the breaking out of that matrix thing that you’re [00:07:50] pointing out. Yeah, yeah. One of the brilliant things about it is that life [00:07:55] can fund you breaking out of the matrix. Exactly. And if you can’t quite break out, you get back to that life, [00:08:00] which is super important. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Or try and juggle the two. Yeah. Be in that weird, like, transient [00:08:05] Schrodinger’s dentistry phase where it’s like, you’re kind of in and you’re kinda out.

Payman Langroudi: So you grew up [00:08:10] in Swindon?

Ali Al Hassan: Uh, born in east London. Yeah. Um, and moved to Swindon. [00:08:15] Yeah. When I was like five years old. And then. But I’ve been all over. I went to school in Gloucester Grammar [00:08:20] School in Gloucester and then studied in Cardiff, and then between kind of London [00:08:25] and Swindon and now a little bit in the Midlands.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So what were your parents moving [00:08:30] around as well?

Ali Al Hassan: No. So I used to get the train every day. Yeah. My parents, my dad was very much like grammar school. [00:08:35] Um he didn’t, he didn’t know that he kind of emigrated to the UK. And someone just mentioned to him that grammar [00:08:40] schools are good schools, and he just got it in his head. There were no grammar schools in Swindon. So um at [00:08:45] that time there were, there were no like bus transfer services. Now there are like it’s become a whole business. [00:08:50] Um, but I used to from 11, he just like dropped me to the train station, I’d get [00:08:55] on the train to Gloucester, get off the train to Gloucester, get on the 94 bus to the school, [00:09:00] and then I’d get home. So my secondary school days, I would get home every day at 6 p.m., [00:09:05] um, every single day. So which was quite long, but, um, but [00:09:10] you know, like the hardships are what make us what makes us stronger ultimately.

Payman Langroudi: What did your dad [00:09:15] do?

Ali Al Hassan: Uh, he was in it. Software engineer became a project manager, whatever [00:09:20] that means. That kind of situation. Um, [00:09:25] he never really enjoyed it. Um, my dad came to this country. He, [00:09:30] uh, he didn’t even really speak English too well, and he got [00:09:35] someone else to fill out his uni application and to the point where even picked the course, he was like, [00:09:40] I don’t care. So my uncle just wrote him down for the same thing that he wanted to do, [00:09:45] and that became my dad’s career. So it’s crazy that that’s literally a true story. Wow. [00:09:50] But he never liked it. He was good at it, but he never liked it. He did well, quite well [00:09:55] for himself. And then, um, but he was like to you guys like go into healthcare. Healthcare is good. And [00:10:00] it’s, I think in Asian families, it’s just see, I’m in Iranian families. I’ve got loads [00:10:05] of Iranian friends that medicine, dentistry. It’s just seen as some, uh, it’s put on a pedestal, [00:10:10] right?

Payman Langroudi: It’s put on a pedestal. But, you know, you got to remember, like, we, we ended up a lot of us running [00:10:15] away from home. Yeah. Suddenly, without, without plans, you know, overnight we’re [00:10:20] going. Yeah. And so in that, what you tell your kid when that’s been [00:10:25] the situation is, is safety. You like, you know. Yeah. And, [00:10:30] um, the doctors and dentists who a lot of our friends were qualified [00:10:35] out here. Yeah. They came straight in and became doctors and dentists here, you know. And that little move [00:10:40] was was. But you’re right, you’re right. I got I didn’t get pushed, but I didn’t know what I wanted. So [00:10:45] they just led me along. Yeah. Yeah. My brother though, on the other hand, he, he loved maths. [00:10:50] Okay. And he said, I want to do maths. And he even said, I want to be an actuary and all this. And I said, no, no, no, be a doctor. [00:10:55] Yeah. And he still pissed off about that. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, they did kind [00:11:00] of force him. Mhm. So Cardiff best [00:11:05] university in the world.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course. Tell me, tell me like, how did you, like, get on? Which which student [00:11:10] were you? Um.

Ali Al Hassan: I was, um, I [00:11:15] was very conservative in university. I was, yeah, I was football team. I played for [00:11:20] the football team. I played video games in my room, um, watched films with the boys, I soc [00:11:25] Islamic society. Um, and, uh, yeah, I had a great time. Like, [00:11:30] you know, we’d watch movies on Sundays, play, you know, a little bit of Call of Duty, FIFA and, [00:11:35] um, I played a lot of football, so I was playing for like the the local Football League seven [00:11:40] a side. You know, they used to have the seven a sides and all of that. I was playing football like 3 or 4 times a week. Um [00:11:45] didn’t really get involved too much with the social side of university. Um, and [00:11:50] uh, yeah, it was kind of like focussed on, uh, my [00:11:55] studies and work. Cardiff was a nice uni. Great people, great food.

Payman Langroudi: You take to it.

Ali Al Hassan: Well, city [00:12:00] road, um, yeah, I think the first year was kind of hard. Uh, well, like the beginning of the first [00:12:05] year, you’re kind of like moving away. And I make this joke. You’re in a different country, even though it’s like just over the [00:12:10] just over the bridge. Um, they used to have the toll, remember? Yeah, yeah. And then now it’s gone.

Payman Langroudi: Is it. [00:12:15]

Ali Al Hassan: Gone? Yeah. It’s gone.

Payman Langroudi: It’s I’ve driven there for years. Like really. I take the train.

Ali Al Hassan: Ah, okay. It’s [00:12:20] it’s, yeah, it’s not been, it’s still kind of surreal, but yeah, it’s not been there for even I’ve not been for a while. [00:12:25] Um, but they eventually I think paid it off and then that’s it. They got rid of it. Great.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:12:30] I love the people in South Wales, man. I really love the people. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Just happy um, [00:12:35] Independent. Hard working. Yeah. Um. Just great. If I had my time in university, I [00:12:40] definitely would have explored and did things more. But I think I was very much in terms of like, at that [00:12:45] point I was in survival mode. I need to get my degree. Um, I need to like [00:12:50] work and have a little bit of enjoyment. But I used to love my video games. I’ve always been a video game advocate. [00:12:55] I play video games now. Yeah, maybe like 2 or 3 times a week, whenever I can, whenever. [00:13:00]

Payman Langroudi: I can find someone to play with, I play. Yeah, I don’t like one play. I like two.

Ali Al Hassan: Yes, I play online, but online, [00:13:05] like.

Payman Langroudi: With.

Ali Al Hassan: The not so it can just be me, but I’m playing with randoms.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your favourite game?

Ali Al Hassan: Um, used [00:13:10] to be kind of the first person shooters like Call of Duty. Um, and then over uni I used to play [00:13:15] Destiny. Um, it was a game by have you remember Halo. Yeah. But by Xbox. [00:13:20] So they made another game called Destiny. I used to, I used to smash that game. [00:13:25] Um, I’ve got a fun. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a first person shooter. So the first year that that [00:13:30] game came out, you can um type in your login on some third party website, and it tells you [00:13:35] how much time you played. Like cumulatively in the first year that game came out. I [00:13:40] played that game for, um, one month in two days. So [00:13:45] in a 12 month, every, every, every 12 hours [00:13:50] of my life in a year, I was on that game for an hour and a little bit. That’s [00:13:55] genuinely they were like neighbours, noise complaints. [00:14:00] There was like, um, it was crazy. Honestly, that was like my, for me that was breaking [00:14:05] out. Like to be able to just play all night when I was, um, when I had like assisting in university, [00:14:10] if I was assisting the next day, you, you do need to be mentally there, but you don’t really need to be mentally [00:14:15] there. Like, you know, you don’t need your faculties to be amazing. I just remember I just, I’d always be, I just pushed the edges so [00:14:20] I would just play all night, go in, function, just sleep in the day, whatever. Play football [00:14:25] later. Assisting day was so unhealthy.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: That was me. Like I’ve [00:14:30] always been the person to test my sleep a little bit.

Payman Langroudi: Me too. Me too. My game was football, but [00:14:35] not FIFA Pro Evo Pro Evo. If you’re aware with the fake names. Yeah, I was that guy. Yeah. [00:14:40]

Ali Al Hassan: It wasn’t Ronaldo. It was Ronaldo.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [00:14:45] right.

Ali Al Hassan: Let’s play in the Champions League.

Payman Langroudi: So when [00:14:50] do you remember turning into this sits before me. Um when was [00:14:55] the inflection point? Like were you always always super hard working. I [00:15:00] was always playing hard. I guess play hard to you was computer games back then. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. [00:15:05] Um, I think a lot of it was work hard. And then, um, when you start [00:15:10] kind of seeing, um, I think when you, I, [00:15:15] I’m not trying to big myself up, I’m just asking your question, but it’s like when you, um, [00:15:20] start doing cool things for the first time, let’s say, you know, whatever it may be, it kind of [00:15:25] just opens the door and I’m that person where I will not just like, you know, dip my toes [00:15:30] in, I would sort of jump in the ocean of like new experiences. Um, so [00:15:35] I think I was set up very well. Um, I [00:15:40] was, um, I talk about this actually a lot, but the, the sort of the, [00:15:45] the dopamine curve is, um, now it’s kind of a little bit fried, but [00:15:50] I was held down in the dopamine curve in my life very, very well. And I [00:15:55] thank my parents for that. There wasn’t like, uh, you know, I was lucky to be in a generation where we [00:16:00] didn’t have phones or anything like that growing up. So like where you live, you know, you go out and [00:16:05] you just meet people. You’re lucky to not have phones. So you have so at that early stage, [00:16:10] your dopamine compared to people right now was very low. The amount of stimulation you’re getting all the time was very low. [00:16:15] Um, I went to, um, so I had a normal kind of, um, [00:16:20] a secondary school experience university as well.

Ali Al Hassan: I was, I was kind of, I kept [00:16:25] away from a lot of stuff. Um, Um, and, uh, just was kind of [00:16:30] sports movies, video games, and then kind of uni. So like not the craziest university [00:16:35] experience. And then while working, I actually moved back home. Um, initially I was just [00:16:40] in Swindon probably for like the first three, four years and there’s nothing to do in Swindon. So I [00:16:45] was literally just working all my, my creative outlet was just dentistry. It [00:16:50] was like, um, I went through the phases like the rubber dam fam phase [00:16:55] and taking posterior pictures of like rubber dam and getting like rubber dam obsession, [00:17:00] getting latex, you know, fetishes. And then, um, and [00:17:05] to then kind of doing more like anterior dentistry, um, then kind [00:17:10] of starting to like zone my diary, uh, learning the hacks and the tricks, you know, like [00:17:15] learning scripts, scripting, um, learning more about sales, getting interested [00:17:20] in that side. I, I think I really got deep into the associate side of dentistry [00:17:25] and there was kind of a transformation. So I do a I’ve done one talk on this, but [00:17:30] I’ve got it stored on my laptop. But it’s like becoming going from like associate to a super associate. [00:17:35]

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. Um, that’s, that’s a super interesting subject. Yeah. Let’s talk about it in [00:17:40] detail, man, because I know a few super associates here. Yeah. Do you know Matty up in [00:17:45] Liverpool? Yeah, I know a few. I know a few. Yeah. Um and the number [00:17:50] one for for the practice. It’s amazing. Yeah. [00:17:55] Yeah. Number two for the associate. It’s amazing because associate was the best job in the world. [00:18:00] Really? Yeah. As long as you’ve got clinical freedom. Yeah. As soon as you got like, no [00:18:05] one’s telling you what you have to do and to the patient, you can do what you want with the patient. Yeah. And then you [00:18:10] don’t have to worry about any of the running of the place. 9 to 5 good earnings. Yeah. Um [00:18:15] doing.

Ali Al Hassan: And if they’re really good they let you do your own systems. Yeah. I can make my own spreadsheets and [00:18:20] people just go along with them. Um, if.

Payman Langroudi: They.

Ali Al Hassan: Trust you, if the.

Payman Langroudi: Terms because [00:18:25] of it. Yeah. So let’s talk about that. What are the cornerstones? What’s what’s what’s the difference between a associate [00:18:30] and a super associate.

Ali Al Hassan: So if you’re, um, if you’re I mean, if we so [00:18:35] if we just kind of talk through it, if you’re a normal associate, right, you’re, um, you’re think about a lot [00:18:40] of the associates these days, right? When they speak to you, they’re expecting the practice to bring you patients. Um, [00:18:45] there as, as, as a, as a reflection of that, the [00:18:50] practice is going to take bigger percentage. Um, your fees are tied [00:18:55] to the practice. You’re, you’re basically, I think an easy [00:19:00] way now that I’m saying it is like you’re kind of employed. Yeah, you’re in a system, you have to follow that [00:19:05] system. Uh, that’s what you do. Uh, the good news is, is you don’t have to be the [00:19:10] one benefit, which personally, I believe is not a benefit. But some people would say it’s a benefit is you don’t [00:19:15] have to be proactive. You’re just there. You turn up, you do the dentistry, you [00:19:20] get paid, you go home. There’s absolutely nothing else that you need to worry about. Yeah. Um, [00:19:25] so your fees are set by the practice. Your. And from a practice ownership point [00:19:30] of view, that’s you. That’s a good thing to have as well. Like you’d love to have an associate like that. Also [00:19:35] who fits into your brand follows everything to the letter. If you could clone that person, you know, a hundred [00:19:40] times, that’d be great too. Sure. Um, and so at that point, you’re an associate, your earnings [00:19:45] are definitely going to be lower. Um, what [00:19:50] do you think the average associate earns? Let’s talk about money. What do you think the average associate earns in the UK? Because [00:19:55] when you.

Payman Langroudi: Look funny.

Ali Al Hassan: When you look online there’s it’s always like 60 to 80 K. [00:20:00] Do you do you believe that.

Payman Langroudi: Because average is a funny measure. Uh, so [00:20:05] let’s say median.

Ali Al Hassan: Let’s talk about not hospital, not salaried. So we’re talking about, um, [00:20:10] we’re excluding, we’re excluding. Um, let me know if we’re going on a tangent.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, I want to go on [00:20:15] tangent.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. Okay. Great. So um, if we take take away like, you know, uh, know, salaried [00:20:20] positions, like all the hospital stuff, all of that, you know, DCT, [00:20:25] DFT, all that stuff. And, um, for example, community, let’s just talk about in your, in a [00:20:30] dental practice, like a normal traditional dental practice, you’re working your sole trader, limited company, whatever [00:20:35] you are. What would you say? What do you think? Obviously, you’ve probably got average though.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a funny, [00:20:40] I’d say it’s very low. I’d say it is in the eight area. [00:20:45]

Ali Al Hassan: You think it’s around there. So like if you’re working five days a week, uh, or you’re working [00:20:50] like full time over the month, you’re taking home about six to 7KA month, something [00:20:55] like that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think it’s [00:21:00] higher?

Ali Al Hassan: So. Yeah. I think maybe it’s marginally higher. [00:21:05] I would say, um, because remember the outliers are dragging it up.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [00:21:10] lots of people earning less than that though. Like true. True. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: But a lot of them are part [00:21:15] time. We’ve got to like pro rata it for like, I think.

Payman Langroudi: No, but this.

Ali Al Hassan: Is another gripe I have. Like, people just don’t want [00:21:20] to work anymore. So it’s like, um, but, but if we, if we stick to this topic [00:21:25] first, the, um, uh, the reason I brought that up was because again, [00:21:30] that’s like where you are. Let’s just say, I don’t think I’m far off that. I think I’m very close to that, maybe [00:21:35] a little bit higher. Um, but that’s kind of what you’re expecting to earn, which is still a great income. [00:21:40] Yeah. Um, very lucky, very fortunate. Um, you know, to be in this country in [00:21:45] general, personally, I think as a whole, but then obviously to be, to be, you know, earning well above average. Um, [00:21:50] that’s the, that’s, that’s kind of the associate bar and that’s, [00:21:55] that’s, uh, what you get. Like I say, the only, the only benefit I think you get is [00:22:00] the fact that you don’t need to be proactive. Personally, though, I think that’s a negative [00:22:05] as a person. I think all people should strive to be more proactive. And I think there’s, um, if [00:22:10] you kind of, uh, just follow all your life, um, you, You. [00:22:15] You’re kind of. There’s a lot of happiness that you’ll never [00:22:20] see. But then at the same time, if you never see it, does it even count? Like I think about that stuff too.

Ali Al Hassan: Um, [00:22:25] you know, so it’s interesting. There’s some people, uh, I’ve got, I’ve got a cousin, he’s [00:22:30] an optometrist and he’s literally just been through the pathway works at Specsavers [00:22:35] next door to where he lived, works a 9 to 5 takes, you know, home, you know, [00:22:40] decent money, a little bit less than what an associate would earn. Goes home every day, never goes on holiday. And he’s the [00:22:45] most, uh, he’s, he’s, he’s just as happy as anyone else. And that’s like what he’s chosen. [00:22:50] So to be honest, I’ve, I think when I say it’s a negative to not have [00:22:55] to be proactive, I think I’m saying that now that I’m thinking about it and reflecting on it, that’s how it would be [00:23:00] for me. But for some people, it’s amazing and like, and that’s just what they want. [00:23:05] But but everyone’s different. Yeah, exactly. So so that’s the associate way. Now moving [00:23:10] on to like being a super associate, it just flips everything. Right? So Your. And [00:23:15] I think the the first thing that has to be said is that you’re bringing in the patients. [00:23:20] The patients are coming to see you. Um, if the patients are coming to see you, uh, [00:23:25] instead of the practice having the agency, you you are bringing in the [00:23:30] patients, you have the agency over those patients.

Ali Al Hassan: So you’re setting your fees [00:23:35] now based on what you think you are worth. Um, you’re, uh, bringing [00:23:40] money into the practice rather than the practice bringing money in. [00:23:45] And you’re kind of servicing that money by the practice, bringing in the patients, you’re bringing them in. So you’re [00:23:50] doing the practice more of a favour in that way in a direct like financial way. Um, [00:23:55] as a result of that, you can negotiate a higher percentage because the [00:24:00] practice has to make a decision versus, you know, do I want 45 or 40% [00:24:05] of this versus 60% of like five times less than this, which obviously, [00:24:10] you know, more money is just more money. Um, if it works, you know, in that case for the brand [00:24:15] and, um, you have, you have much more freedom and, uh, [00:24:20] you’re, you have, you have the agency, you’re being proactive. So you’re doing campaigns yourself, [00:24:25] you’re speaking to patients, you’re out there with social media or your works just amazing. And [00:24:30] you don’t need social media and people are coming in just from referrals. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And all of those [00:24:35] things, right? Yeah. Not one of those, all of those things.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, exactly. Uh.

Payman Langroudi: And so you do, obviously [00:24:40] you do social media. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: So for me, the social media thing for me is what kind of took off, [00:24:45] took it off. Yeah. Um, but.

Payman Langroudi: You do, but do you do paid campaigns as well.

Ali Al Hassan: No, no [00:24:50] no, no, but, um, I, um, so I’m uh, so as if you’re a [00:24:55] super associate or in my case, I’m very lucky. My practice owners have supported me the whole way. [00:25:00] But if I want to do a campaign, the practice just pays for it and does it for me. Yeah. [00:25:05] And it doesn’t.

Payman Langroudi: I keep you on.

Ali Al Hassan: Site and they take no cut. Sorry. They they pay for [00:25:10] the whole.

Payman Langroudi: Thing, pay for the whole thing.

Ali Al Hassan: They pay for the whole thing. So I don’t see any side of that. But I’m like, let’s do an open day here, here. [00:25:15] Um, but there’s a story behind that though. So we, we run an Invisalign, for [00:25:20] example, open day model, uh, in Swindon. Um, and we will get, uh, I did a post [00:25:25] on, um, on that, uh, Dental advertising page, but in three days we’ll [00:25:30] get like 50 patients to come in and like, uh, 8 or 9 out of ten of them will pretty much [00:25:35] go ahead. So we do like a lot of Invisalign cases. Um, and, uh. [00:25:40]

Payman Langroudi: What, what do you say about yourself and that? Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: So, so, so in that [00:25:45] case, what I’m saying is, um, uh, so I’m working in this practice and I was like, look, we need to start doing [00:25:50] paid ads. Paid ads is like the thing to do at this time. I’m still doing like Udas. [00:25:55] Um, but I’ve just started doing Invisalign and my practice owners were like a bit iffy about it. [00:26:00] This is like right at the start, this is we’re talking like 2018. So yeah, you know, seven, eight years ago. [00:26:05] Um, and to be honest, they made a really fair offer. They were like, look, I was like, it’s going to [00:26:10] pay itself back. All right, Ali, you pay for this one. Just do it. [00:26:15] We’ll we don’t really understand how this works. This ignite growth marketing agency. Shut [00:26:20] up. Derek. Um, we, we, we don’t really understand [00:26:25] this, but but we’re open to it and we want to kind of move into the new age. You do it, [00:26:30] you pay for it. If you make the money back, we’ll reimburse you. So I fronted the money actually, for [00:26:35] the first Invisalign open day, I paid ignite directly myself their fee as an associate, [00:26:40] um, who wasn’t earning a lot. Like I said, I was just doing like 000 days in a bit of private on the side. [00:26:45]

Payman Langroudi: Um, this is kind of how it goes kicking off.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, yeah. So and this was at that time and I [00:26:50] with so many things, it’s about timing as well. This was kind of right before that big boom 2018, [00:26:55] right before, I think right before Covid. And then there was the whole kind of Covid boom and you rode that wave. [00:27:00] But, um, so not to digress, I paid for the open day, did the open day, we got like [00:27:05] six patients. Um, But that was still seen by me at that time as a wild [00:27:10] success. The things I did then I don’t do. We’ve iterated massively and if I was to look at myself [00:27:15] then I was like, you, you. You didn’t take deposits or like more than half the people didn’t turn [00:27:20] up. You didn’t really know what to say. I’d just done the Invisalign course myself and done like an ortho [00:27:25] course. So I wasn’t super. I didn’t have the hundreds or, uh, cases under my belt [00:27:30] to, to have the experience either. Um, got six patients, I think I’ve [00:27:35] paid out about just under £3,000 for everything. Like the, the [00:27:40] fee, the ads at that time, ads were a lot cheaper. A lot of practices weren’t even [00:27:45] on that marketing trend. And then, um, the practice owners saw that and then they paid me [00:27:50] back in kind of the rest was history. And then we started doing so much Invisalign in the southwest. [00:27:55] Um, we’ve kind of become known there. So in my area, um, if you search for Invisalign, [00:28:00] basically I’ll come up, um, in my, in my local town kind of a surrounding as [00:28:05] top. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But what do you do differently now? So before you were buying some ads. Yeah. [00:28:10] What do you do differently now that so.

Ali Al Hassan: So now the practice just does it for me.

Payman Langroudi: I, they buy ads.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, [00:28:15] yeah. They literally so they’ll do, they’ll do the open day model. Um, they’ll do Invisalign open day every quarter. [00:28:20] Yeah. Um, and then there’s, but there’s patients coming in as drips and drabs through social media, whatever. [00:28:25] So, so, so that side happened, um, at the same time, I, I was very lucky when [00:28:30] I got out of university, my trainer made me take photos of everything and I used to hate it. Um, [00:28:35] and he had a clinical camera and this is my vto, my DFT. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Where did you do that?

Ali Al Hassan: Um, in [00:28:40] Cwmbran. Oh really? Yeah. So in East Wales, where did you do yours in Kent. In [00:28:45] Kent. Okay, fine. So I was East Wales. There’s a whole like East Wales family anyway, but um from that [00:28:50] I just met, I was like, okay, I’ll make an Instagram, I’m taking pictures. And um, that kind of hit me. That was [00:28:55] when the Dental Instagram boom kind of happened as well. Yeah. Again, catching it very [00:29:00] early on. And I would post, uh, three times a week for three years. I [00:29:05] didn’t get a single patient. On the fourth year, I remember I got my first patient from Instagram [00:29:10] who wanted to see me just thinking, wow, this patient’s come on social media. [00:29:15] They’ve seen what I do. And this was a very new concept back then for me at least. [00:29:20] And I was like, this person actually just wants to come in and see me. They’ve not walked past the practice or come in like a normal [00:29:25] patient. They’ve not come in through the practice. They just want to see me because they’ve seen my pictures. And [00:29:30] by the fifth year, um, every single patient, 99% [00:29:35] is coming through Instagram DMs. Um, which is also kind of word [00:29:40] of mouth at this point. Now everyone just kind of like if someone recommends me in Swindon, if someone’s [00:29:45] on a night out and they see teeth and they’re like, oh, you should come to Doctor Ali. He does everyone’s teeth in Swindon. They’ll [00:29:50] be like, well, how do I contact him? They’ll give the Instagram.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s not, let’s get into let’s get into the mindset of [00:29:55] the guy who sees that maybe dentistry on Instagram [00:30:00] might be a thing to do. Yeah. Are you the kind of guy who then delves deep into how [00:30:05] does one succeed on on Instagram? Get yourself educated. Or did you. Or are you [00:30:10] the kind of guy who calls up the person you know, who’s closest to that and get some advice on it? Or [00:30:15] are you the kind of guy who just feels your way around and plays it by ear?

Ali Al Hassan: Because I definitely [00:30:20] felt my way around and played it by ear. But what I would say now is for social media, um, [00:30:25] three things you need to be really good [00:30:30] at what you do. You know, ultimately, if you’re.

Payman Langroudi: You mean the actual thing?

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. The actual thing. Yeah. The [00:30:35] actual thing you need to be good at. Because if you’re not, that’s never gonna, it’s never gonna translate. Even [00:30:40] if people come in, they’re not gonna be.

Payman Langroudi: In the wrong place.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. Exactly. Right. So, you know, if you have amazing social media and you [00:30:45] do concrete slabs, but they look horrible. Yeah. Um, it’s not going to work. So that’s the number [00:30:50] one foundational thing is actually be really confident, get the hours under your belt. They say what 10,000 [00:30:55] hours and you can be, you know, 90% of people at anything get the 10,000 hours in [00:31:00] and be really confident at what you actually want people to see you for. Um, second thing then is, [00:31:05] um, be, uh, obviously be good at photography, um, and [00:31:10] media. So, so that’s like, for me, it was just using a camera and then slowly over time, it’s like making videos and [00:31:15] stuff like that. Um, you need to have proof. Uh, proof is very, very [00:31:20] important. Social proof, uh, proof as in, um, you know, I’ve [00:31:25] won awards. That’s proof to a patient. Um, I’ve done thousands of smiles. Scroll down. You can [00:31:30] see them. That’s proof. Um, which, which, which I’ve liked I, I like teeth like that. Therefore [00:31:35] I want to see this person. Um, you could be amazing at your job, have just started an account, [00:31:40] not really showing much. Someone thinks your work looks amazing now, [00:31:45] but there’s not proof. There’s not like years and years of posts. You’ve been doing it for a long period of time. Um, [00:31:50] so, so you need to have, uh, the actual proof. And then finally, uh, the frequency, [00:31:55] right? You need to be posting, um, as much as you can. So I [00:32:00] used to post three times a week and I used to think that’s a lot. Right now I’m posting, [00:32:05] uh, on all.

Payman Langroudi: Three times a.

Ali Al Hassan: Day on all. So you say three times a [00:32:10] day, I’m three times I’m doing, um, one short form video every single day on [00:32:15] TikTok, Instagram and YouTube shorts. So that’s three.

Payman Langroudi: The same one, right?

Ali Al Hassan: The [00:32:20] same one, but it’s going to three different channels. Um, I’m then posting my stories, [00:32:25] which is maybe 3 or 4 a day. Um, and then I’ll also be on top of that, doing three actual [00:32:30] posts three times a week. And essentially in a week, I’m probably sending out about [00:32:35] 20 to 30 pieces of content. Um, and that’s again, from like a business [00:32:40] mentor that I looked at online who was, who’s, um, some of these big business, you know, like, yeah, [00:32:45] like, or yeah. And, or like these big advertising agencies, they’re making about two, [00:32:50] 300 pieces of media content every single day. So it really opens your eyes [00:32:55] to kind of to what’s possible. And ultimately.

Payman Langroudi: And now with AI. Yeah, [00:33:00] I mean, you can, you can say, hey, for my business, I think, uh, this, this [00:33:05] girl with blonde hair would be good, but then you can throw out 300 different [00:33:10] avatars and find out which one of those there’s.

Ali Al Hassan: A person for.

Payman Langroudi: Everyone that’s really working, right? [00:33:15]

Ali Al Hassan: Girl or.

Payman Langroudi: Guy? Yeah. Yeah. But it’s what’s interesting to me. Is that okay, you [00:33:20] say all of that, but I would say the main sort of gift [00:33:25] that you might have had that made this successful was tenacity. [00:33:30] Well, one of the main tenacity. Yeah, because there’s loads of people, [00:33:35] loads of people. If they post three times a week for even three [00:33:40] months. Yeah. And they’re not getting engagement. They’re just either out of shame or laziness [00:33:45] or whatever will just give up. But you, you went on for three years. [00:33:50] Yeah. That that tenacity point number one, Um, super important.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. Even [00:33:55] then, though, I wouldn’t say tenacity, I think I was, I enjoyed it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think you can only [00:34:00] do it that long for that stretch of time if it’s fun. So I enjoyed taking the pictures. [00:34:05] I enjoyed posting online, seeing other. I was that sad person who I actually really enjoyed [00:34:10] posting. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I think over how did you get over the worry that some dentist [00:34:15] is going to judge you?

Ali Al Hassan: I used to get, you know, in the early days I’ve still got. I probably can’t dig them out now [00:34:20] because it’s so late, but I used to get dentists from like UK and overseas messaging me and [00:34:25] um, look, I’m not, I’m not, I’m not. Yeah. Like, like, [00:34:30] no.

Payman Langroudi: You shouldn’t, I don’t even mind that.

Ali Al Hassan: You shouldn’t be posting this. Your cavity design is not correct.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:34:35] I don’t even mind that in public.

Ali Al Hassan: That’s that’s not that’s not good to your patient. I’m like [00:34:40] who that’s crazy. Like how like who has who, who knows [00:34:45] people like that. Like, how do people like this actually exist? Like it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Crazy. They do exist. And [00:34:50] in dentistry, you can sort of get away with it because it’s kind of I’m doing this for the patients for the [00:34:55] betterment of the world. Um, but I saw one where it was the footballer, you, you [00:35:00] put one thing on. Yeah. And almost the first comment is some guy saying where’s the rubber [00:35:05] dam. Yeah. And um and then I remember that.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And [00:35:10] it was a brilliant post like it was remember this guy?

Ali Al Hassan: And yeah, the goal.

Payman Langroudi: The goal [00:35:15] going.

Ali Al Hassan: Into the Lanzini West Ham. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And it was a brilliant post. It was really well done post. [00:35:20] And the first guy was some guy who said where’s the rubber dam? And I noticed you engaged with [00:35:25] it. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s a funny one because number one, it’s a bit rude of him [00:35:30] on a, on a, on a, on a B to C kind of post to kind of do that to you in front [00:35:35] of the world or whatever. But the problem is replying to him is what makes it a thing [00:35:40] because, you know, but, but I understand why you did it because you don’t want to like, say you did something wrong. [00:35:45]

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, but then initially you’re and you don’t have the confidence [00:35:50] I have now. And remember, proof is outward. It’s great to patients, but proof [00:35:55] is you are as a person, right? As we’ve got older, we’ve done things more. We believe in our proof [00:36:00] ourselves. So. And the more you believe in your own proof on a certain thing, the less other people’s opinions [00:36:05] and words and things matter. But in those early days, you know, when someone who’s much more [00:36:10] senior than me is writing me an essay about cavity prep, I’m thinking, am I in the right profession? Like, [00:36:15] what’s going on? How do I block it out? I’m thinking about that at night. Um, you know, that’s why [00:36:20] I was like, I’m moving to anterior dentistry now. I’m just kidding. But, um, that kind of happened on [00:36:25] its own, but but 100%, you know, you’ve got to be, you’ve got to have a little bit of a thick skin. Um, [00:36:30] but that comes over time.

Payman Langroudi: Look, on our composite course, we ask who’s got a dental account? [00:36:35] Simple. Who’s got a dental account?

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. Mini smile makeover. Yeah, yeah. [00:36:40]

Payman Langroudi: And they say, um, two thirds of the room don’t have one. Yeah, yeah. Then we say, [00:36:45] okay, why not? Why not? And it comes down to I’m worried about what other dentists will think [00:36:50] about it. I haven’t got time. Yeah, I’ve got time. Or there’s [00:36:55] just like, I just don’t want to be that dentist. Right? But okay, you don’t want to be that dentist.

Ali Al Hassan: It’s [00:37:00] not that dentist. It’s your shop front. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you have a physical shop front? Yes. If [00:37:05] you don’t have a digital shop front, you’re missing. Probably. It used to be half the traffic. Now [00:37:10] it’s like most of the traffic. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um so so but on the point of being worried about what [00:37:15] others think about you, you, you had that and you just went through it.

Ali Al Hassan: You, the only [00:37:20] thing that that can, uh, you need to outwork your self doubt.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. [00:37:25]

Ali Al Hassan: If you don’t, once you’ve outworked, you need to work to a point where there is no self doubt anymore, [00:37:30] where you’ve done the thing so many times and you’ve seen it come back and you’ve stayed in [00:37:35] the same place, I’m at the same practice. Uh, most of my clinical [00:37:40] time is at the same practice that I started straight out of the same place. [00:37:45] Not not left. I’ve been there eight years now, still doing three days a week there. Um. [00:37:50]

Payman Langroudi: Because you see your own errors as well.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, yeah. And that’s the proof. That’s the so you see what works, what doesn’t [00:37:55] work when, when you have that surety kind of yourself, then other people’s opinions [00:38:00] really, really don’t matter. You’re not even worried about them. Now I do posts and I don’t even like [00:38:05] I like to.

Payman Langroudi: Read the comments.

Ali Al Hassan: I reply to them, but just robotically in terms of for engagement. [00:38:10] Yeah, you know, it’s Instagram likes it if you reply to messages and stuff, but ultimately it’s just there to get [00:38:15] patients right. I’m not trying to some people probably post their stuff to like show off to other dentists [00:38:20] as well.

Payman Langroudi: They want to set a course for me.

Ali Al Hassan: I’m very robotic about it. I’m like, I’m getting X [00:38:25] media bits out a day. Um, patient leads are coming through and, and I’m getting it out and [00:38:30] I’m try and systemise it as best I can. Um, but, uh, do the thing. [00:38:35] Don’t worry. And that applies to that’s such a big, um, piece of life advice for [00:38:40] anyone in any situation is so many people are held back by two things. One is [00:38:45] that other people’s opinions. Um, and secondly, limiting beliefs that, [00:38:50] you know, this isn’t possible. Um, you know, uh, that’s, [00:38:55] that’s why these coaches do so well is they, they break through, um, you know, [00:39:00] these, these kind of limiting beliefs. Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And the work itself, what [00:39:05] do you, what do you do? What don’t you do?

Ali Al Hassan: So 90%, um, [00:39:10] Invisalign and composite, 80% Invisalign composite, a little [00:39:15] bit of porcelain, 70% Invisalign composite 20% like porcelain, indirect. [00:39:20] Um, and then 10%, just all sorts of general. But I don’t do any endo anymore [00:39:25] except for family and friends. Yeah. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: Fillings, [00:39:30] not much.

Ali Al Hassan: If someone needs one, I’ll just do it. Or if it’s a patient I’ve done cosmetic work for [00:39:35] and they need one. I’ll do it and I don’t mind it, I enjoy it, I’m happy to do it. Um, but I’m [00:39:40] a big believer in niching down. It’s quite you know, it’s pretty common knowledge. But [00:39:45] if you want to be amazing at one thing, if you want people to see you for something, you need to be amazing at that [00:39:50] thing. How are you amazing at that thing? You’re sacrificing other things to give yourself more [00:39:55] time to do that thing. So you can build X amount of proof over time. So people are going to see you. [00:40:00] So I’ve done, you know, relative to myself, loads of ortho now, loads [00:40:05] of composite. I can see what works, what doesn’t work, a lot of indirect smile makeovers, that kind of [00:40:10] thing. I can I know how to get a patient who wants a better smile [00:40:15] to get a better smile, leave, and have that for a substantial amount of time where they’re happy, [00:40:20] they’re happy to obviously pay money and their life’s like improved as a result. Uh, [00:40:25] and that just kind of snowballs. Um, and I just, I’m a big believer in just do [00:40:30] the same thing for an inordinate, for an inordinate amount of time with [00:40:35] no, like immediate reward, but then kind of just let it compound compound compound, compound [00:40:40] compound to like you’re just, you know, you’re the person at that thing. Um, or [00:40:45] one or, or 1 or 2 things. If they’re kind of like complimentary whitening goes along with that as well. So, you know, we’re [00:40:50] doing whitening for all of our, um.

Payman Langroudi: Ortho, as Kunal would say, a, b, c [00:40:55] yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, a lot of a, b, c. So I met a funny little sidekick. I met Kunal, one of [00:41:00] my closest friends in dentistry, uh, well, close to my, one of my closest friends, um, [00:41:05] at mini smile makeover.

Payman Langroudi: Know.

Ali Al Hassan: When I went there. Yeah, I went to mini spa.

Payman Langroudi: He was teaching. [00:41:10]

Ali Al Hassan: So I went to, I had my first full arch, like 8 [00:41:15] or 10 teeth composite case ever shitting bricks. I was like, um, you know, [00:41:20] I’ve done single tooth. I’ve, you know, because you evolve, right? I feel like everyone goes through this phase. You go from like posteriors. [00:41:25] Great. Because it’s that safety. If it looks shit, no one’s going to see it. You don’t need to worry about [00:41:30] it. And then I kind of, I got deep into that whole rubber dam family movement. [00:41:35] Remember that? Where like posterior composites and like the long mirrors and patients like, why [00:41:40] are you like just spending half of my appointment taking pictures and but I really [00:41:45] enjoyed that side. I’ve always enjoyed the media pictures. Then you start doing like a front filling and a patient’s like, well, actually, [00:41:50] you know, that’s amazing. Like, I know this is NHS, but I can’t even tell there’s a filling in that front tooth. [00:41:55] Um, and then you, you might build up like a whole tooth. Um, and then you might do [00:42:00] 2 or 3 teeth. And so this was at that point where I was at my first, like, we’re doing a set of teeth on a young [00:42:05] lady who wants to look better. She’s a good looking girl that’s on you. And I actually had my, the [00:42:10] course was, I believe, on a Saturday and I had the patient in on Monday. [00:42:15] So I was as as they say, as [00:42:20] they say in East London, man’s was prepped. Um, 8 or 10. It was like a.

Payman Langroudi: 8 [00:42:25] to 10 for your first.

Ali Al Hassan: Time. Yeah. I remember her name. Um, she’s, she works in the local estate [00:42:30] agents. I still and I still see her, by the way, every day. But, um, how did it go on my way to lunch? Yeah. [00:42:35] So I went to a mini spa makeover, um, practised on the set of teeth. And [00:42:40] to this day, I still people like if I want to just do a composite course for like smile makeovers. [00:42:45] That was the one that I went on. So I tell a mini spa makeover. Depeche was their amazing teacher. Um, [00:42:50] you were there. Um, did we party? I remember a few. [00:42:55] A few of your lines are coming out. You know, I don’t know if I want to. Um.

Payman Langroudi: We did, we didn’t we.

Ali Al Hassan: No, [00:43:00] no no no, not at that time.

Payman Langroudi: Was it Covid?

Ali Al Hassan: I didn’t even know what a party was [00:43:05] at that time. No I was not that. Yeah. That that’s that’s pre that’s that’s pre Ali [00:43:10] not post Ali.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: So because I’m building that proof that you need everything in its [00:43:15] time right. Yeah. So um but you were teaching about Enameloplasty. I remember you were talking about enamel [00:43:20] plasty and how in those days you used to charge like crazy money for like, enamel Plasty remember you were saying. And [00:43:25] then and then I was like, listen, you need to get a scanner. I was the thing, you know, love teeth, dental. [00:43:30] And, um, I was probably gonna watch this. So I’m going to say now this is [00:43:35] this is when um, Canal did his talk, he came outside and then he was just on his laptop working. And [00:43:40] um, I was like, wow, Canal, your talk was so amazing. He was like, yeah, I just do the big cases now. And I was like, [00:43:45] I want to be like that guy, the guy who does the big cases. Yeah. And, um, he, and he convinced [00:43:50] me to get an itero. So that came off that too. And then I saw, I saw the girl. Um, um, [00:43:55] let’s just say Georgia on the Monday and, um, she was super, super happy Everglow [00:44:00] composite. Um, I haven’t used that for years and years. Polished [00:44:05] up really well. She still got it, still going strong. I’ve still got the pictures. And [00:44:10] um, that was the start. That was my first ever full set case, straight off mini smile makeover. [00:44:15] True story.

Payman Langroudi: That’s funny because Matty, he tried a composite [00:44:20] bonding on his nurse. Yeah. Messed it up and decided, oh no. And then came on mini smile makeover. [00:44:25] And then he eventually, like, he was booked out, like in the heyday. Yeah. When the [00:44:30] post Covid heyday. Yeah, he was booked out for like seven months.

Ali Al Hassan: Six, seven months.

Payman Langroudi: Composite bonding. [00:44:35] Yeah. Were you as well?

Ali Al Hassan: I was like three, four months. Wow. At the. [00:44:40] Hey. Yeah, absolutely. Um, it’s. That was a crazy time. [00:44:45] Like, now I’m like half a month ahead, but back then, and [00:44:50] it’s probably, that’s probably the least it’s been probably ever since Covid. I feel like [00:44:55] I, I do think there’s been a downtick in patients who want to do cosmetic treatment. [00:45:00] I’m still, I’m, and I think now’s like a pretty difficult time. You’ve got to be [00:45:05] really good at what you do, have a really good brand and to still be able to kind of do it. But, um, yeah, [00:45:10] those times were crazy, honestly. Like, I mean, furlough money was flowing. Everyone [00:45:15] was on Zoom.

Payman Langroudi: You haven’t been a dentist during a recession yet, [00:45:20] have you?

Ali Al Hassan: No, except I would kind of say we’re in a mini one. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: No, we’re definitely [00:45:25] kind of a recession. They haven’t called it that. Yeah, but it is a kind of a recession. Yeah, but I remember [00:45:30] very well that 2008. My God, man, 2008 dude. Something [00:45:35] happened on the news, like private dentistry.

Ali Al Hassan: And you’re like, suddenly your diaries are just.

Payman Langroudi: No, like, like, [00:45:40] like a bank went down. Yeah. People just, like, suddenly lost all their jobs.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. The mortgages. [00:45:45]

Payman Langroudi: The phone stopped ringing for two and a half days. The [00:45:50] phone did not ring at enlightened. And back then it was phone, right? Phone for two and a half days. And [00:45:55] we started the company like 7 or 8 years before that. And I’m looking around with my team going, [00:46:00] are the phones right? The phone systems.

Ali Al Hassan: Go back to Cardiff.

Payman Langroudi: Two [00:46:05] and a half days. Dude, the phone didn’t ring. I turn around to my partner and I said, dude, what if [00:46:10] it just never rings? Yeah, but the good thing is, dentistry does do quite well in [00:46:15] a recession quite well compared to everything else.

Ali Al Hassan: People really do prioritise their smile. [00:46:20] Yeah. Or their teeth.

Payman Langroudi: Well, one of the nice things about like there’s, there’s other businesses that do [00:46:25] well in recession, but they tend to be sort of dirty businesses like, you know, insolvency [00:46:30] businesses do very well in recession or whatever. But the great they [00:46:35] don’t those businesses don’t tend to do very well in the up times. But dentistry tends to do [00:46:40] well in both.

Ali Al Hassan: You can feed off the uptake. And there’s always there’s always drips and drabs.

Payman Langroudi: Survive.

Ali Al Hassan: The [00:46:45] times. Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And you know, we that’s important man. [00:46:50] That’s important. All right. So we get back to this switch [00:46:55] journey.

Ali Al Hassan: So so you start to do more anterior cases. Yeah. Um, doing [00:47:00] start to do a lot more, uh, combination of the Covid boom, lots of cases to suddenly [00:47:05] do lots of patients with money in their pockets doing lots of anterior dentistry, do the Invisalign [00:47:10] course, start doing these open days at a time where it just.

Payman Langroudi: Started auto training. Did you what have [00:47:15] you done for authors? Is it.

Ali Al Hassan: So I’ve done, I did, I did the I did the Invisalign course. [00:47:20] Um, I did a lot of mentoring with Doctor Afan who’s with Space Dental [00:47:25] now. Um, he did a lot of my, uh, ortho mentoring back then. He’s amazing. Learned so [00:47:30] much from him. Um, a, uh, Tiff Qureshi, uh, a a a [00:47:35] b s yeah, s Academy and the he did that course a line bleach bond [00:47:40] course. Um, and then, uh, yeah, and I did [00:47:45] a PG cert. Oh, this was so long ago, um, with, [00:47:50] uh, Shiraz Khan and that had like, um, a big like ortho component to it. And, [00:47:55] um, but yeah, it was more just kind of getting through the cases. I feel like Invisalign is a great system. Um, [00:48:00] and patients love it. Like if you can do ortho, it just unlocks [00:48:05] so much for you. Um, and it goes with, uh, cosmetic [00:48:10] enhancement.

Payman Langroudi: Say you get yourself in an ortho situation. Who do you call.

Ali Al Hassan: If [00:48:15] I’m in ortho situation? Uh, you.

Payman Langroudi: Got a.

Ali Al Hassan: Friend? I, I use the, I [00:48:20] kind of just use the forums.

Payman Langroudi: Other forums.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, yeah, [00:48:25] I don’t, I don’t think I have a direct like, I know I [00:48:30] know people in ortho, but there’s not I’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Or do you ever use one of these treatment [00:48:35] planning services? Have you ever.

Ali Al Hassan: No I’ve never no, I, I do all the stuff. I’ve always been like a [00:48:40] myself kind of person. Like I try and delegate as little as possible, but that’s just me. Um, but they do, [00:48:45] they do kind of have these services. Um, but, uh, I’ve always been, yeah, [00:48:50] I like to kind of do my plans myself according to like how I like to do, um, [00:48:55] how I like to do my iPod. I know you can set all of these things. Um, but I’ve kind [00:49:00] of put in a little system for myself. So I’ve got my spreadsheets for my ortho across the practices [00:49:05] and all the stuff for all the practices, know how my spreadsheet works and a patient starts on the [00:49:10] spreadsheet colour coded, they move through from like lead to there’s [00:49:15] probably, there’s probably software that does this, but I’ve, I’ve just become so comfortable with it. Yeah. Um, [00:49:20] that goes from like start to end to getting the aligners on your teeth to finishing retainers, all of that stuff. Um, [00:49:25] I don’t think ortho.

Payman Langroudi: Is that complicated.

Ali Al Hassan: I don’t want to [00:49:30] piss off the orthodontists.

Payman Langroudi: But just for my.

Ali Al Hassan: I don’t I don’t think it is.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but so explain [00:49:35] it to me, dude, because I wouldn’t have the balls to treat lots of people in ortho. I didn’t [00:49:40] do much ortho. Yeah, I did some Invisalign and.

Ali Al Hassan: I was very nervous, like doing my first [00:49:45] composite cases. I was very nervous doing my first ortho cases. But I think when you.

Payman Langroudi: Cornerstones. [00:49:50] Cornerstones. What cornerstones does one need to be to have to be safe with [00:49:55] GDP. Invisalign. Yeah. Number one, got to know when not to treat [00:50:00] the case.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So you learn this on all these on the courses. They literally teach you the things [00:50:05] to look out for. Um the things to look for managing expectations, ortho assessment forms, [00:50:10] make sure you’re filling all that stuff out.

Payman Langroudi: But then the next thing along, like if you’re trying to get really [00:50:15] good at it, really slick at it. Yeah. Let’s hear some tips. Like, like how to manage [00:50:20] more volume in ortho. How to sell it. How to manage the patient. [00:50:25] How to like what are your.

Ali Al Hassan: So so so so if you’re so if you’re if you’re in terms of selling it [00:50:30] paid paid advertising bar none is the quickest way to increase like your patient flow. You’ve got [00:50:35] to spend money. But if your ads are good, you’re going to get more money out. You need to have a system to track patients, [00:50:40] whether it’s these like, um, call tracking systems that are coming out now, but you need to make sure that [00:50:45] anyone who’s interested targets you helps to have a good relationship with Invisalign. So you’re coming up on their search. [00:50:50] Um, these are all things.

Payman Langroudi: You’re saying in the ad, like, what are you saying about you?

Ali Al Hassan: Uh, it’s [00:50:55] just we’re doing an Invisalign open day. There’s X number of discounts. Um, and it’s going to [00:51:00] be with Doctor Ali, but that in my hometown, um, you, [00:51:05] you, you build a name for yourself. Yeah. So. Exactly. Yeah. So there will be someone who sees that he’s like, oh, Doctor [00:51:10] Ali’s doing the offer again. Jump in now kind of for the offer. Yeah. Um, or [00:51:15] like for the social media, but ultimately you want to be get really good at doing [00:51:20] the thing. Show people that you can do the thing and do it so [00:51:25] many times again that the self-doubt part is gone and touch wood. [00:51:30] I that’s kind of where at you’ve just got to do it so many times. I was when I did my first big cosmetic [00:51:35] case or with ortho or everything, everything’s difficult the first time. Everything’s worrisome. The [00:51:40] first time you think everything’s going to go wrong. The first time. When you do something a few hundred times, [00:51:45] it’s kind of you don’t really stress when you start doing things multiple hundreds of times or thousands of times, [00:51:50] it doesn’t really bother you anymore. Ultimately, you’re just trying to like, I look at things very simplistically. [00:51:55] You’re just putting a little bit of force on teeth to move them. You know, there’s lots [00:52:00] of like scientific things going on at the same time. But ultimately, like people used to do it in Egyptian times, [00:52:05] like you just pull teeth a little bit, they’ll move the body adapts to it, and it’s kind of where it needs to be. I’m [00:52:10] very simplistic when I look at these things. Ortho people are gonna hate me. But genuinely, um, [00:52:15] Um, you know, you’re just moving teeth.

Ali Al Hassan: A patient comes in and they want a tooth to be in a [00:52:20] different position to where it is. You want their bite to be in a better position. Obviously from that side as a doctor, so that [00:52:25] maybe you can do other things. Um, and Invisalign is a piece of plastic that’s moving them. It’s applying [00:52:30] the forces don’t use too much force. Uh, plan the case correctly, make space in the right places. But that just [00:52:35] comes with experience, you know, with mentors, like you say, but so much helps available online now. I’ve [00:52:40] learned so much from YouTube. Youtube is probably my biggest mentor in dentistry, like [00:52:45] bar none. So interesting. The amount of things I’ve learned because I grew up on like YouTube [00:52:50] gaming, and whenever I wanted to learn something, it was like, well, how do I pick up this [00:52:55] achievement? Some guy does it on YouTube, shows me how to do it. So I’ve actually learned a lot of [00:53:00] stuff from these American dentists who built all these free YouTube webinars on like [00:53:05] veneer preparations. And so I do a lot of my, um, stuff kind of, uh, [00:53:10] more the Americanised style, but I feel like Americans as well. Then they don’t get [00:53:15] too into the nitty gritty. They’re more like, um, uh, some of them do. But [00:53:20] I think American dentistry in general sees it coming from a more macro perspective and less of a biological [00:53:25] perspective. It’s like we’re getting the patient in. We’re doing this for them. We’re moving [00:53:30] the teeth. Whereas in the UK, there’s so much like regulation and do this and you have [00:53:35] to do the tick boxes and obviously we do them. But I think ultimately, um.

Payman Langroudi: Look, you’ve done a lot [00:53:40] of Invisalign cases now. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: So that makes you an experienced user. Yeah. What is [00:53:45] an experienced user. Someone who’s made some errors. Um otherwise. Yeah. [00:53:50] If you haven’t made some errors then you’re not very experienced.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s get to the darker part [00:53:55] of the pod. Okay. Discusses. Yeah. What’s what’s been your biggest difficulty? Like let’s start with [00:54:00] Invisalign. What like, which case comes to mind when you think that went a little [00:54:05] bit wrong? I would have, I would have done things differently.

Ali Al Hassan: Um. I’m [00:54:10] trying [00:54:15] to think. I’ve never had a case where someone’s teeth have just fallen out. Thank God.

Payman Langroudi: Touch wood. Good.

Ali Al Hassan: Trying to think. [00:54:20] Um. I’ve moved, I’ve moved. I’ve got a funny story. I’ve moved [00:54:25] a dead tooth. That should have been. No. So I’ve. I had a patient, an old lady. [00:54:30] She’s got a central incisor. Um, that’s just, uh, [00:54:35] periodontally involved and the tooth just totally dead. And it needs to just be extracted. [00:54:40] And she’s like, I just want to leave it in the gum in that position, but I’ve got like a bit of a gap. Now I [00:54:45] just want to close the gap. That tooth is like, it just needs to be extracted. She’s like, she’s like, no, [00:54:50] I was like, there’s no way we can do anything with this because look, I’ve got money. [00:54:55] What I want you to do is and she, she knows what she wants. And she’s a lovely lady. She’s like, I want you [00:55:00] to move these two teeth and close the gap. That’s what I want. I’ll do it. And you’ve got to ask yourself, look, ethically, [00:55:05] what are you actually trying to do here? The tooth’s already dead. It needs to go. She can do something [00:55:10] else. But I’ve literally moved that tooth. Close the gap. She wears a retainer on it every day.

Ali Al Hassan: Most [00:55:15] of the day she still comes in for her check-ups. And that tooth is. It’s not even attached. [00:55:20] Literally, I think you could flick it and the tooth would come out. I’ve moved it. She wears her retainers [00:55:25] on it, and it’s there. And and, um, again, it goes back to [00:55:30] what are you trying to do? Are you trying to help the patient or you are trying to fit like a cycle? [00:55:35] Because if you look at that purely from a biological perspective, that’s not the correct thing [00:55:40] to do. But if you’re looking at it from, I guess this kind of explains my point. If you’re looking at it [00:55:45] from a human perspective, what are you actually trying to do? In my case, I’m trying to help people [00:55:50] and make a living along the way. And if I’m helping them and doing them no harm, then, [00:55:55] um, that’s absolutely fine. But but I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t call that like an [00:56:00] error. I’ve had, I’ve had bad, I’ve had bad. Um, ortho’s probably a bad area [00:56:05] to talk about my worst mistakes because honestly, genuinely touch wood. I’ve been very lucky with.

Payman Langroudi: All you [00:56:10] get. You get what I’m saying? That I wouldn’t call you a very experienced user.

Ali Al Hassan: I’ve had I’ve [00:56:15] had a recession that’s got worse, but patients have been fine with it because I’ve had the communication really [00:56:20] good. For me, the horror story of ortho is like, if you move a tooth like out of a [00:56:25] bone or a tooth, that was fine comes out. Um, [00:56:30] okay. I’ve got um, a gentleman, um, eastern [00:56:35] gentleman. He, uh, came in for ortho and [00:56:40] uh, he, his perio was worse than I thought it was. Um, and [00:56:45] we did ortho on his lower teeth and they, and they were nice and straight, but he developed, [00:56:50] he went from like grade one mobility to like grade three mobility [00:56:55] on his lower, like 2 to 2. And, um, and his [00:57:00] perio actually just got worse throughout. He wasn’t really like looking after his teeth. And actually he kind of stopped wearing [00:57:05] his retainers as well. So it’s like he’s paid this money. His teeth were straight. They’ve kind of gone bent [00:57:10] again. And now they’re like wobbling in the wind. And we kind of had to extract them and just make a [00:57:15] bridge. Yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: It wasn’t part of the plan.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, yeah. And I’m thinking, obviously we probably [00:57:20] should have just made that bridge from the get go. And he’s just spent that extra money to get the ortho done. [00:57:25] And he made a comment about that. But that’s probably. But but again, [00:57:30] what.

Payman Langroudi: Can we learn? What can we learn from that one?

Ali Al Hassan: Communication is key. He could have kicked [00:57:35] off and another patient would have kicked off. But I kept him really well informed. [00:57:40] Um, I know him. His family sees me. I always ask him how his family is, how [00:57:45] his daughters. We’re more like we’re we’re we have a we have a very good relationship. Very [00:57:50] honest, open and up front. You know, this isn’t working anymore. You’re not even really wearing [00:57:55] your retainers. We’re just going to have to take these teeth out. I’m sorry. We should have done this beforehand. Um, [00:58:00] the thing and and, um, be better at your I, should [00:58:05] have been better at picking up on that patient and kind [00:58:10] of seeing that ortho was not the best way to go. I’m someone who is willing to test limits, [00:58:15] so I will do I will do ortho on periodontally involved patients if I think [00:58:20] that their oral hygiene is good. And I even say to them, your teeth are going to move quicker, there’s [00:58:25] less bone up. And genuinely, I think I’m helping that. In a lot of cases, [00:58:30] when people are periodontally involved, the occlusion is just too strong for the amount of bone around the teeth, [00:58:35] and their teeth are sort of drifting. So you need to kind of restabilize them in a good position and you’re kind of helping [00:58:40] them out. Um, but I’ve not had any. That’s my worst horror story [00:58:45] and I can’t in ortho.

Payman Langroudi: But no, listen, maybe.

Ali Al Hassan: But maybe I stick to maybe I stick to quite simple. [00:58:50] I do Invisalign go and I’ve always done Invisalign go. Oh really? Yeah. So 5 to 5 [00:58:55] then 6 to 6. There’s not a lot in my again, I don’t want to simplify it, but.

Payman Langroudi: You’re [00:59:00] not doing massive movements.

Ali Al Hassan: That can go wrong. Exactly, exactly, exactly. I’m not doing palatal [00:59:05] expanders and screws and any of that stuff.

Payman Langroudi: How about how about if I said your [00:59:10] most difficult patient.

Ali Al Hassan: My most difficult patient. [00:59:15] Um. I’m just trying to think right now. [00:59:20] Is there any patient that I’m that I’ve got. I genuinely go to sleep right now. [00:59:25] And there’s honestly patients wise, there’s nothing I’m trying to think in the past.

Payman Langroudi: Dentist [00:59:30] like eight years or something.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve been who is your most difficult patient.

Ali Al Hassan: Difficult patient. Um, I’ve [00:59:35] had difficulties with like staff members that we can go into. Yeah, [00:59:40] I could. So my should I tell you my biggest dental issue? Yeah, I can tell you that because I’m happy to go into t but I don’t really [00:59:45] I’ve been so lucky. My biggest superpower is I get on with people. So with patients, [00:59:50] even if something goes wrong, I’ve always had a great relationship with the patient and I’ve never had something touch [00:59:55] wood that I’ve had. I’ve, I’ve had a, a stand off relationship with a patient. No patient [01:00:00] has ever gone to lawyers regarding me. I’ve never had to do any of that stuff. [01:00:05] I’ve refunded people and stuff, but it’s been between us together. I’ve been lucky in that way. Um, [01:00:10] I really pissed off, uh, a practice. Uh, I [01:00:15] need to, I need to not give too much detail here, but, um, let’s say I’ve, I’ve really, [01:00:20] I do my own thing. As you kind of know, sometimes though, if you don’t, if [01:00:25] you’re not good at following instructions, it can piss people off. Um, at a certain point I’ve [01:00:30] had a staff member, um, do a GDC [01:00:35] referral about me to the GDC literally like, um, not [01:00:40] making stuff up, but taking things and then, uh, changing them like five times [01:00:45] worse to make it into something bad. Um, and then sent that to the GDC. [01:00:50] So I got the GDC email through and it was literally like, Ali, you’ve done, you’ve done [01:00:55] this, um, having lunch with patients, talking [01:01:00] about patients, uh, in a, in a, in a joking way, um, saying that, [01:01:05] you know, patients are good looking or not good looking and that you would date them, etc., [01:01:10] whatever. Um, and I can’t even remember what the rest of the stuff was about, but it was like, really, [01:01:15] it was like taking just normal dental practice conversations and just making it [01:01:20] sound, uh, very horrible. Yeah. And, um, it was all hearsay.

Payman Langroudi: Did you piss [01:01:25] someone off?

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, yeah. So I actually didn’t. I’m so oblivious, but I didn’t even know this person, [01:01:30] like really disliked me, but I left a position. And then as soon as [01:01:35] I left the obviously, um, there was, uh, [01:01:40] a situation where I’m not benefiting said place anymore because [01:01:45] I’ve left. Yeah. So on, on that tail end, you can, and I’ve [01:01:50] heard of this happen to a lot of associates where they’ve, uh, sometimes, for example, left the job and [01:01:55] then, well, now, you know, we can, if there’s been if it’s not a clean break or a good break. Yeah. [01:02:00] Um, you can whatever get reported for whatever. Yeah. Now, I was very, I was very [01:02:05] proactive. I literally got the GDC email through saying this is the charge [01:02:10] sheet. We just want to let you know this is what’s been said. We’re just looking into it for now. And we [01:02:15] just need some details from you. Your indemnity. They asked for indemnity. They ask for just make sure [01:02:20] that you you’re covering everything. So I sent that. I was like, by the way, this is all made up. And [01:02:25] I actually went back to this, uh, organisation and um, the, [01:02:30] the other people who I did have a really good relationship with, um, I [01:02:35] was like, would you be willing to, to write a letter to say, none of this is true? It [01:02:40] was totally nonclinical. It was all like hearsay stuff. It was the weirdest things. Like one of the [01:02:45] actual things was having lunch with patients. A lot of my patients, my friends, they come in for [01:02:50] treatment and I’ve been seeing them for like three, four years. And, um, we’ll just get lunch afterwards. [01:02:55] Like guys and girls. Yeah, we go for a Nando’s. That [01:03:00] that was on the thing, having lunch with patients.

Payman Langroudi: So why did you piss [01:03:05] this person off? What was it they. Was it that you were changing job?

Ali Al Hassan: And um, they [01:03:10] were very, they were like, you need to, they’re trying to put me into [01:03:15] the associate box of you have to do this and we want you to come in.

Payman Langroudi: So you left, you got. [01:03:20]

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. You want to come in. I kind of dealt with it for a few years. Um, and [01:03:25] we, and we were doing well, but I would just do my own thing. I’d come in when I won, I’d see patients when I won. [01:03:30] And it works really well for me in the other places where I’m just kind of given [01:03:35] the freedom, that’s what I need to work. I’ve learned that about myself, and this was a place that didn’t really [01:03:40] want that or like that. And, um, someone in management, um, [01:03:45] was, uh, really, really didn’t like that. And kind of looking [01:03:50] at it back there, probably get the feeling that this person doesn’t give a shit about me. They’re doing their own thing. [01:03:55] Um, they’re really happy. They’re going shopping and [01:04:00] they’re like, kind of working, coming and going. And, um, personally, [01:04:05] I think there’s a bit of jealousy there. Um, I could be wrong, but then, but [01:04:10] then you get a GDC charge sheet with all this, like made up.

Payman Langroudi: I really want to caution you against the jealousy, uh, [01:04:15] explanation for I.

Ali Al Hassan: Don’t think it’s an.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent. No, but I [01:04:20] want to caution you on it. Yeah. Insomuch as there may be jealousy, there may be jealousy, [01:04:25] but it’s a very easy way of not confronting what the actual situation [01:04:30] was.

Ali Al Hassan: The actual situation was I just do what I want to do, and this person doesn’t like that. [01:04:35] They’re very, uh, managerial. You have to come in at this time. You have to if, for [01:04:40] example, like if I, um, let me, let me.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So, so you, you, you know, her [01:04:45] authority was being, uh, is it it didn’t exist.

Ali Al Hassan: I just acted like it didn’t exist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, [01:04:50] yeah. And, um, so.

Payman Langroudi: You disrespectful.

Ali Al Hassan: Owners didn’t care.

Payman Langroudi: Her authority.

Ali Al Hassan: No, but yeah, but never like, not [01:04:55] even a bad word said.

Payman Langroudi: No, but to her.

Ali Al Hassan: Authority, I just ignore. Yeah, I just ignore like I will just do what [01:05:00] I want to do and I will not, I won’t even engage. I won’t even try and convince someone if I want to do something [01:05:05] and they want to do something else and I won’t even have the chat, I’ll just do because [01:05:10] I know like I’m good and I’m comfortable in myself. Um, anyway, so, so this comes through. [01:05:15] I get this letter written by all the other, but I’m, I’m shitting bricks. I’m like, this is crazy. [01:05:20] Tell a few close friends and then, um, and then you hear about these things sometimes go on for years and [01:05:25] years and years and years and years. And I’m like, I’m just going to have this like hanging over my head. And I was like, you [01:05:30] know, like whatever. And I start thinking, I start mentally training myself like, this is going to be there for years [01:05:35] now. You’re just going to be there. It’s just another thing that’s there. Ignore it. Don’t worry, it’s fine. You’ll get [01:05:40] over it. But do everything you can. Be proactive. Um, I get a letter written by [01:05:45] four people totally to counteract, um, signed [01:05:50] and everything. And before the GDC even asked for it, when they asked for my initial details, I sent [01:05:55] that letter in. They come back to me. So it’s been like a week. They come back [01:06:00] to me and they say, um, Ali, uh, thank you actually for your [01:06:05] details and thank you for this letter as well. Um, can you confirm the contact [01:06:10] details of these people? These people were actually very scared to put their [01:06:15] names to this because, um, they didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Want to get fired. They were.

Ali Al Hassan: Fearful. Exactly. [01:06:20] And, um, that was, we had that relationship and I, and I was like, look, it’s confidential on [01:06:25] their side. I confirmed from the GDC, it’s confidential on both sides. And, um, it, [01:06:30] uh, and, uh, so, so they were able to directly the GDC. Then [01:06:35] I gave the email addresses, the GDC.

Payman Langroudi: Anonymously.

Ali Al Hassan: The GDC emailed said people. [01:06:40] Yeah. Um, the Ali’s given this letter to say that, you know, this is all.

Payman Langroudi: Made [01:06:45] up or whatever was real.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, exactly. And then they all emailed back, you know, thanks to them. Love those [01:06:50] people. They know who they are. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And they dropped the case, right.

Ali Al Hassan: And they [01:06:55] dropped the case in three weeks. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So, you know, that’s like that. They call that blue on blue, [01:07:00] you know, like dentist on dentist violence. Yeah. Yeah. At the GDC.

Ali Al Hassan: I think that’s what most of it [01:07:05] is.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s a massive component of it. I mean, this probably wasn’t a dentist, but but still. Yeah. Same [01:07:10] story. Do you reckon you learned something by it? Like, you know, I’m interested [01:07:15] in the would you do things differently?

Ali Al Hassan: Why learn was put yourself in the. It wasn’t. I would [01:07:20] act differently. It was. Put yourself in an environment which you know, [01:07:25] you can thrive in. Um, I put myself and I’m a I’m a big believer [01:07:30] in, um, nothing I don’t, I don’t blame other people or anything else. I’m, [01:07:35] I’m a self. It falls to you. The only thing you can control is you. The only thing that [01:07:40] you can change is your decisions. Anything you can’t control. Don’t worry about what could you have done differently? [01:07:45] What I could have done differently. There is just, um, uh, not been [01:07:50] in that position where it didn’t work. Like money was good and everything, but, [01:07:55] um, how the system wanted to work versus how I wanted to work were at odds. And, [01:08:00] um, there was a big clash with like management and like other and some [01:08:05] other members of staff, um, not in like a verbal way or a physical way, but just in terms of [01:08:10] like, I would just disengage and do my thing. And that can really annoy some people if, [01:08:15] if, if they’re, if they’re seen in that way. So don’t put yourself in that environment. Um, [01:08:20] but I’ve been quite lucky in that I’ve, I’ve settled in good environments, mostly 80% on [01:08:25] the whole, and I’m still in all of those places. And now I’m kind of, I don’t really think I’ll ever, I don’t [01:08:30] see myself changing jobs in like a, in. I’ve changed jobs once. [01:08:35] And that was the only time, you know, otherwise I’ve just started. But you hear about other [01:08:40] people who are like, they work in one place for a year and then they jump to another and they jump, jumped. And then they wonder why they’re not getting [01:08:45] like loads of cases ceptance or doing loads of amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Word of mouth. Word of mouth is on a real like exponential [01:08:50] curve. It is. So it is like, you know, a small difference at the beginning makes a big difference.

Ali Al Hassan: And [01:08:55] all of these things compound doing the same thing for a very long amount of time. That’s compounding. [01:09:00] You’re in the same area. So people are talking about you and that word of mouth is spreading. That [01:09:05] compounds. You’re getting better and better at media. You start by taking pictures, then you get more confident [01:09:10] in doing videos. You’re getting more confident speaking on camera. Now you’re seeing more things on social media, [01:09:15] so you’re getting more ideas of what you want to do on social media. That’s compounding your confidence [01:09:20] in.

Payman Langroudi: Your critical mass, isn’t it? Like I remember with every new product we do same story, mini [01:09:25] smile makeover. We’re like, yeah, loads of people were really happy. Yeah, but we weren’t getting many word of mouth. Yeah. [01:09:30] I mean, what’s going on? What’s going on? And what it was was it wasn’t loads of people. It was actually a tiny number [01:09:35] of people because it was early.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: As the years go on, the number of humans increases. [01:09:40] You know, like it’s a it’s an important thing to bear in mind. Yeah. Tell me about [01:09:45] Dental opulence.

Ali Al Hassan: So do. My best friend in the Midlands [01:09:50] was like, Ali, I see you doing lots of this amazing dentistry. I’ve got a unit free. Let’s just [01:09:55] open a clinic. And, um, I was kind of a little bit against it. I was very free in what [01:10:00] I wanted to do. He was like, Ali, I will handle all of the logistical stuff. So all [01:10:05] the hands on stuff, the paperwork stuff, the, the all I want you to basically put [01:10:10] your name on it, put the, your portion of the money towards it, obviously, and um, [01:10:15] if you want to work there, you can work there. If not, we’ll do it together. But just do be that clinical person because he’s not a [01:10:20] dentist. Yeah. Um, and um, I was like, okay, let’s do it. So we kind of, and [01:10:25] it’s for me, it was like more of a life experience. You know, I want to know how opening a practice is. So, you [01:10:30] know, you learn about building, you learn about putting a surgery together. You learn about CQC, you [01:10:35] learn more of the kind of background, like marketing side and everything from a practice [01:10:40] point of view. You’re trying to get other dentists busy now, not just yourself. Um, in a city where I’m [01:10:45] not really known. So, um, this was our thing was like, if we can make that work, [01:10:50] we can make anything work. Um, and then we were like, we’re going to expand [01:10:55] from there, but we’ve kind of just been having too much fun the last two years to be doing that. But again, [01:11:00] it’s that balance, right? It’s like, when do you choose to jump out of the rat race and start enjoying some [01:11:05] of your time versus we keep working, expanding, working, expanding, working with you.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not an either or though, [01:11:10] is it? You’re doing both at the same time.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, yeah. But I would say I can, I, I’m more [01:11:15] than happy to confirm and say for the last two years, I would say I’ve been on the [01:11:20] work side. I’ve been stagnant but stagnant at a level that I’m happy. [01:11:25] I’m happy in terms of like what I’m earning. Like I haven’t really, I’m not doing [01:11:30] more than what I was doing, uh, for the last sort of year and a half or so. But then, but the [01:11:35] extra effort for me has been like travelling the world, seeing things that I never thought [01:11:40] I would see. Just going to these experiences and just kind of probably living [01:11:45] life to a level that I didn’t really live it. Um, probably from my early days. [01:11:50] Yeah. Um, you know, catching up on that dopamine, as they say. Yeah, yeah. And, um, but, [01:11:55] but that’s you got to get the most out of life, right? You know, you get one shot and works amazing [01:12:00] and helping people and that and that sense of duty. At some point we’re gonna, we’re gonna, [01:12:05] you know, there’s definitely more practices on the way. Um, and there’s even like plans in [01:12:10] the works for that.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me, tell me some of the highlights of Dental opulence. Like how, how long [01:12:15] was it a complete squat?

Ali Al Hassan: We, yeah, we just put a little bit of money in every single month. He’d [01:12:20] put a bit of money in. I’d put the money in. We’re like, what can we pay for? It took us like, because, you know, you can fit out these surgeries [01:12:25] really quick. Now we just did it the old school way. We didn’t take any loans. Um, it cost [01:12:30] it’s, it’s like a one surgery boutique practice cost about, I would say all [01:12:35] in all about. I think I might get the number to. I can’t remember [01:12:40] if it’s. I might have to, um, just [01:12:45] trying to think how much was it? I think it was like one 180 [01:12:50] zero zero £0 around there. All in all done. We should have made it a two surgery, [01:12:55] but we’ve learned that for the next one when we get around to it. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And then a different [01:13:00] associates work there or one associate.

Ali Al Hassan: Three associates, um one three days a week, one [01:13:05] two days a week, one like one day a week.

Payman Langroudi: Um, or any of them super associates.

Ali Al Hassan: No, [01:13:10] but one guy’s getting really, really good. Um, we took him from just purely NHS to [01:13:15] referral from word of mouth that he’s a good dentist in the local area, train him up to do composite and loads [01:13:20] of ortho, which he’s doing now. Um, but they’ve not really hit, they’re not good on this. They don’t do their [01:13:25] socials, they don’t like you, you with socials, you have to enjoy it to do it, or [01:13:30] you have to just pay someone to do it for you. And the people who don’t enjoy it. Unfortunately [01:13:35] for them, also don’t want to pay someone to do it for them. And, um, I think [01:13:40] that if you look at all the super associates, they’re big on socials. I don’t, I think it’s hard to, [01:13:45] you know, and I don’t even think I’m that big of a super associate, whatever. [01:13:50] Um, but these super associates are.

Payman Langroudi: Linked to social.

Ali Al Hassan: Are doing well.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [01:13:55] no doubt about it. Yeah. There would be no super associates without super social. Yeah. Well, really [01:14:00] so but what did you learn? Was it easier or harder than you thought? [01:14:05]

Ali Al Hassan: Uh, it was more. It’s just taking the steps. I wouldn’t even [01:14:10] call it easy. You know, you’ve you have.

Payman Langroudi: Well, how well did it do? I mean, you you.

Ali Al Hassan: So we we.

Payman Langroudi: One [01:14:15] room.

Ali Al Hassan: We made we made our money back. Yeah. Both of us. So we put in what, um, [01:14:20] like about 90 grand each. Yeah. We made our money back in um 7 [01:14:25] or 8 months.

Payman Langroudi: Oh nice.

Ali Al Hassan: In a one surgery. So we, we got [01:14:30] that money back. Um, yeah, it was, it was really good. [01:14:35] Um, we did, we did it. He, he’s got a big accounting business, uh, [01:14:40] up there, so they know loads of small to medium sized business owners, thousands of them on their books [01:14:45] so that they’ve all got money in their pocket. They’re coming in to get their teeth done. He knows a lot of the local celebrities, [01:14:50] so we did a lot of the local celebrities. We did some rappers, we’ve done some Aston Villa footballers. Um, [01:14:55] and um, when I kind of made my money back, that’s when I was actually doing [01:15:00] um, what I was doing. I was doing two days a week in the beginning [01:15:05] over there. And then I stepped back and I was like, right, I’m just going to do associate lead now. I’m going to [01:15:10] come just for two days a month. Um, and now I’m, you know, it’s a new challenge. [01:15:15] Like, you know, trying to get other dentists busy, uh, trying to be a good mentor when I’m [01:15:20] like, not on holiday or not working or not doing my own thing. And, um, you know, kind of just letting, [01:15:25] letting it sort of take its course, but a squat if done well, some people like, you know, when you see those, [01:15:30] um, you see those posts online and it’s like, don’t expect to earn any [01:15:35] money for three years. And um, yeah, make sure you’ve saved up for it’s [01:15:40] very like, can be very doom or gloom when people are like giving that sort of advice in. We, [01:15:45] we, we, we, we had good foundations in terms of like my socials already and the work [01:15:50] that I know about and the systems that I knew and his local, uh, connections [01:15:55] in the area. But, but if you want to find a winning formula to begin with, find [01:16:00] your advantage and then push it. Yeah. But you can, you can do very well. And there’s people who’ve done much [01:16:05] better than, than we have honestly. Um, and, uh, yeah, so, so, but [01:16:10] the plan is to grow dio um, it’s a good little brand we’ve got.

Payman Langroudi: I love the [01:16:15] brand.

Ali Al Hassan: Dio.co.uk.

Payman Langroudi: Have.

Ali Al Hassan: You don’t do.co.uk.

Payman Langroudi: I love that you know, when, [01:16:20] when you see a logo. I don’t know about you man. Every time I see a logo I always want to critique it, make it better. Yeah, I [01:16:25] can’t.

Ali Al Hassan: You know, Shaz from Digimarc says their brand. No, [01:16:30] but he’s like, you’re. That’s the best thing. So we were just sitting there and we were like, and we just [01:16:35] we saw the Adobe logo, the Adobe with the two D’s. And we were like, let’s just [01:16:40] do that, but do like a D like as a half circle and then an O, and then there’s so much [01:16:45] like you can turn it on the side and it’s a man, it’s a person or it’s like a smile the other way around. [01:16:50]

Payman Langroudi: It’s cool.

Ali Al Hassan: Man. And um, yeah, so.

Payman Langroudi: You should do more of those eventually.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. [01:16:55] So we and on the, on the Deo social page we built, we just follow, we don’t follow [01:17:00] because some this is some people build Instagram by following loads of people. This is like a strategy [01:17:05] on Instagram where you can, um, some people to grow their Instagram will follow thousands of people and X [01:17:10] percentage will follow you back. And it’s a way of like growing. We don’t follow anyone, but we’ve grown the [01:17:15] page in two years to like 6000 followers. Um, to [01:17:20] put that in perspective, I’m on my Insta, it’s like 18,000, but that’s [01:17:25] nine years, which is a business. So it’s almost harder [01:17:30] because it’s not a person.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not a.

Ali Al Hassan: Person. So it’s grown to five and a bit in [01:17:35] two years. Yeah. So, um, just why [01:17:40] is that posting regularly all the time. Having a nice brand [01:17:45] and be good and confident at what you do and people will, people will kind of find [01:17:50] you.

Payman Langroudi: I think for, for social consistency really is a really important point. Absolutely. [01:17:55] Yeah. Not only because the algorithms love, love it. Yeah. But [01:18:00] I don’t think the algorithms love it as much as they used to.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, exactly. But having your shop front. [01:18:05] Yeah. It’s your shops either closed or open. And so you need to 24 hour running story. If [01:18:10] you’re if you’re posting once a week, just think of time. If you’re posting once a week, [01:18:15] when someone sees your story cumulatively in that week, it’s like a snapshot of time. If [01:18:20] it’s a post your digital shop is open to ex [01:18:25] outside, a person who sees it, which most people don’t even see it, but someone who sees it. Just think about. Think [01:18:30] about all the minutes that you have in a week. Your digital shopfront is open for like three [01:18:35] seconds. Yeah, out of those millions of minutes or how many minutes there are in [01:18:40] a week, you need to have a rolling story. You need to always be there. And because no one else is doing it [01:18:45] and you’re doing it, you’re obviously cleaning up. You know, you want to be that person [01:18:50] who, if people hate doing the thing, you be the person who’s getting in the weeds and doing it and [01:18:55] you’ll see the benefit from it.

Payman Langroudi: What do you say to people? And there’s lots. Yeah. In my generation, [01:19:00] say the amount of time you’re spending on social, you should be dedicating [01:19:05] to clinical learning more than you already know.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And, [01:19:10] uh, you know, things like, you know, you know, my generation hates awards. [01:19:15] Yeah, yeah. Do you understand? Do you understand the concern?

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, it’s it’s. [01:19:20]

Payman Langroudi: It’s tell me the concern. Like what the.

Ali Al Hassan: Concern about awards is. It’s your you’re [01:19:25] pushing to patients that you’re like a BAFTA [01:19:30] winner of Oscars, for example, and there’s been like a whole judging panel or whatever. And [01:19:35] you’re saying now I’m an award winner. And it’s kind of the the thing is, you’re misleading patients [01:19:40] to come to you. And then people who don’t engage in it hate it even more because other people are using [01:19:45] it and they’re not using it. And then they might see said people, you know, advertising it, [01:19:50] putting it on their websites and whatever. And they’re like, this is, um, this can be seen as whatever, like misleading. [01:19:55] It depends on what your mentality is. My mentality is, is, look, if [01:20:00] it’s the rules of the game, if it’s acceptable and allowed, you know, I’m [01:20:05] going to use it. If I’m, if I, if, if I’m running at you and you’re the goalie and I have a guy on my [01:20:10] left, I could shoot or I could use the guy, but I just use what’s available to you. [01:20:15] Um, the awards are there. I’m agnostic towards it. I’m, I’m very much like, [01:20:20] is this beneficial to me? Are patients going to come through the door if I use this? [01:20:25] And am I going to get in trouble if I use this? So the answer is no. I’m not going to get in trouble. I can use it. [01:20:30] Other people are using it. Um, patients are going to come through and it’s going to give you proof. And I’m happy [01:20:35] in what I’m doing, but it’s just something else that’s going to give you more proof. Um, I’ll use it. What’s [01:20:40] your goal? What are you trying to do? Are you trying to help more people? Yes. [01:20:45] So if you win an award, whatever kind of award [01:20:50] it is, which there’s all these companies or whatever. But let’s say now you win one and you put it on your website. Do [01:20:55] you think reasonably you’ll get X number more people coming through when they see that [01:21:00] the answer would be yes, right. Compared to what.

Payman Langroudi: I get, though, of course I get that. Yeah, of course I get that. [01:21:05]

Ali Al Hassan: So and that means you can help more people. Don’t you want to help more people?

Payman Langroudi: Of course I get it. But look, we have [01:21:10] them. Yeah, yeah we have. I can pay 1500 pounds. Yeah, yeah. [01:21:15] To eight different organisations and get eight awards. Yeah. Should I, for [01:21:20] enlightened say, oh, best best teeth whitening system. [01:21:25] This most improved. It’s very easy. You know about this? There’s companies that sell those [01:21:30] awards. Yeah. One of one of our competitors loves them. Yeah. Yeah. Should I now. I [01:21:35] don’t want to. It’s not. It’s not what I’m about. Yeah, yeah. But but it’s not the end of the world.

Ali Al Hassan: But does it. [01:21:40]

Payman Langroudi: But but I’m not even saying.

Ali Al Hassan: Is it about you? You’re not talking about you.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not saying.

Ali Al Hassan: Just use it as a marketing [01:21:45] tool.

Payman Langroudi: I could do, I could do.

Ali Al Hassan: Why wouldn’t you.

Payman Langroudi: Should I do you buy? I [01:21:50] just buy a bunch of awards.

Ali Al Hassan: Do you want your business to do better?

Payman Langroudi: I’m not necessarily saying it would. [01:21:55] See, that’s. That’s.

Ali Al Hassan: So you physically think it wouldn’t translate to much?

Payman Langroudi: So it’s important in B2B. Definitely [01:22:00] in B2C is different, but in B2B, yeah, if I bought eight awards that anyone [01:22:05] can look and see, these are bought awards.

Ali Al Hassan: No, no, but no, but that’s your you’re in a bubble [01:22:10] there.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, B2B, B2B is a.

Ali Al Hassan: Bubble. No, I know, but no, but 90, 90% [01:22:15] of dental practices probably still don’t even know the. Not 90, but like half [01:22:20] of dental practices don’t even know the awards even exist still.

Payman Langroudi: Well, why don’t you put professor [01:22:25] in front of your name?

Ali Al Hassan: But when they see it.

Payman Langroudi: You know what.

Ali Al Hassan: I mean? Yeah, I, I don’t I.

Payman Langroudi: Because I get [01:22:30] into trouble. You’re saying yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah yeah, yeah. If you exactly. But also I don’t even necessarily think that’d be good. But [01:22:35] look, if you have a website that offers a great service and let’s say a thousand patients come through it, just [01:22:40] if you now take that same website and you put an award in, it’s more proof you’re going to get more people. [01:22:45] So if your goal is you want to help more people, just think about what your foundational principle is. Is [01:22:50] it to is it to make lots of money so you can live your life and help the world? Is it or selfishly, [01:22:55] is it to help lots of people on a. Whatever your goal is, you’re going to be able [01:23:00] to do more of what you want to do. If you have more proof and an award shows proof to [01:23:05] other people, and if. And it’s not gonna, it’s not going to turn people away. The only thing that will [01:23:10] turn people away is your product. That’s the only thing that will ever turn people away. But [01:23:15] the more things you have as proof, that’s going to get more people, like through the door. Um, don’t [01:23:20] even it’s not an honour thing. People make it like all about honour and like, it’s not [01:23:25] that it’s look, we’re gonna, we’re on this, we’re in this on this planet for like a [01:23:30] minute. We’re going to be dead. Everyone’s going to forget everything about us. Just do the thing and do it to the fullest. [01:23:35] Like it’s not, it’s not that deep. Do if it’s going to help you do more of what you want to do, then, [01:23:40] um, then do it. So, so I’m on that side, but I totally understand what you’re saying. But [01:23:45] most people.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not what I’m saying. It’s, it’s what people are saying. Yeah. Some [01:23:50] people are saying, yeah. Um, it’s, it’s important. My point is, it’s important to understand [01:23:55] these concerns. Yeah. Like by the way, by the way, you could say, no, it’s not, you.

Ali Al Hassan: Didn’t used [01:24:00] to allow it to be even advertising for dentistry. Right? In the old days, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: You could, you could say, no, it’s not, it’s not. [01:24:05] I’ll focus on, you know, enjoy my life instead of focusing on these things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if we’re [01:24:10] discussing what’s going on out there. Yeah. Like if I, if let’s say, uh, this, [01:24:15] uh, Israel Palestine thing. Yeah. Yeah. I, I actively [01:24:20] see search out Israeli news sources to hear. What are they saying? Okay. [01:24:25] What what are they saying? Yeah. Yeah. Even though overall, I feel like more worried for [01:24:30] the Palestinians. Yeah. Yeah. And let’s say I actively search [01:24:35] out, um, Nigel Farage content. Yeah. To see what are those [01:24:40] guys saying. Like what is the actual issue. Yeah. Blame immigrants for everything. Yeah. [01:24:45] But why, why is this guy having to blame immigrants to understand it? Yeah. Yeah. I’m not going to vote for Nigel [01:24:50] Farage. Yeah. I’m not a pro like Zionist king or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. But I want to hear [01:24:55] what those people are thinking. It’s important, you know, because yeah, it’s very easy to tribally kind [01:25:00] of say, you know, one thing or the other. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m of the view [01:25:05] of just do what’s best for you. Like don’t even it’s not even about why you even part of the debate. [01:25:10] Just don’t waste your time on it. Do just ignore everything else and just do what you want to do. That’s my. [01:25:15] I’m not even like trying to. I’m like, what do you need to do? Stick to that. Do [01:25:20] more of that. And just whether that’s working, balancing doing [01:25:25] both of them, um, just do what you can to, to do more of that stuff. Yeah. And don’t [01:25:30] worry about what other people think, honestly, except for your parents, you should listen to your parents at all times. [01:25:35]

Payman Langroudi: Very nice caveat. Let’s talk about travel. You’re always away. [01:25:40]

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. So, um, once a month. I’ve got a long weekend. I [01:25:45] like to go somewhere, um, with my friends. It’s like a really, uh, it’s [01:25:50] like an amazing reset. Go somewhere for nights. That’s the sweet spot for [01:25:55] nights. Go anywhere. Go Europe. Europe’s really good in summer. You’ve got amazing destinations. Uh, [01:26:00] we’re going to Sweden, Stockholm, um, next [01:26:05] weekend, and I just find, uh, I’ve time I a timetable in my holiday like people [01:26:10] timetable in my work. I’m on a four week work timetable, so I’ll work [01:26:15] three and three quarters weeks. And then that last quarter I’ll take off. Um, [01:26:20] and we’ll go somewhere, uh.

Payman Langroudi: The same group of people.

Ali Al Hassan: Pretty much. [01:26:25] Yeah. You, if you, if you find people that you get on really, really well with, um, yeah, [01:26:30] literally like you’ve met Ali, like I go with Ali a lot. Iranian fellow Iranian, um, up in Manchester, [01:26:35] he’s a, he’s a funny dude. But yeah, if you, if you find, yeah, if you find someone you can just co-exist with, [01:26:40] um, and have a good time and have laughs. Like I think there’s no higher experience [01:26:45] for a man than just shits and giggles with the boys. That’s my personal experience. Look, [01:26:50] you can say family, you can say all of this stuff. You can say like the connection [01:26:55] with, um, a man to a woman and like, look, there’s no better male experience [01:27:00] genuinely than sitting with a bunch of boys, having a laugh, doing whatever you want to do. And [01:27:05] that crosses any kind of economic barrier. Um, so I like to do more of that [01:27:10] because I want to have loads of great times in my life. Loads of great.

Payman Langroudi: Like, you know, at the beginning you were saying not having enough time [01:27:15] for old friends. Yeah, that for me, school friends.

Ali Al Hassan: You have to break.

Payman Langroudi: School friends [01:27:20] are the ultimate. Yeah, yeah. University of course. I mean, I’m in I’m in business relationships with [01:27:25] people I used to live in. Yeah. I live in university with, but school friends, man, when [01:27:30] you say shits and giggles. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, yeah, honestly, like, um, you know. The [01:27:35] holidays. Um, I would encourage anyone [01:27:40] to travel you. It changes you. You start meeting. [01:27:45] So, so one thing I’ve learned recently is, um, a superpower is just being able to meet [01:27:50] lots of people, which you do, for example, like through the podcast. And we’re very lucky in our [01:27:55] profession that we get to meet so many people during Covid when everyone’s locked up at home, we still got to [01:28:00] meet loads of people. It’s such a big I think it gives you so much life force that you don’t even kind of think [01:28:05] about that even even on the professional level. But then on holidays, you’re meeting people who are doing amazing [01:28:10] things in totally different industries. You make friends in different countries. [01:28:15] Um, it just inspires you and opens your eyes.

Payman Langroudi: It feeds an extrovert, but [01:28:20] not an introvert. I mean, like an introvert gets tired by meeting people. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: So I’m, I’m, [01:28:25] when I’m in my work zone, I’m very introverted. [01:28:30] I like to max out almost both. So when I’m in work mode, I’m these [01:28:35] days, I’m kind of just like keeping to myself, going to the gym, um, sleeping on my work days. [01:28:40] But when I’ve got like a weekend or I’m going somewhere, I really want to kind of like, you know, do the thing. [01:28:45] Yeah, exactly. Like, um, I think, but some people [01:28:50] do like that quiet, introverted life, like my, like my cousin. And then some people like want to be [01:28:55] fully out there and whatever. Um, sometimes I ask myself, which one do I fit into? Because [01:29:00] I can be comfortable in both. And traditionally I’ve been the introverted person [01:29:05] in a university. I was very like, I had my close group of friends, but I wasn’t like a very social [01:29:10] person. But then, but now, like you go to like whatever south of France or you, [01:29:15] you go on these summer holidays to like Mykonos and, and you’re meeting all these like amazing people doing [01:29:20] great things, business owners, um, enjoying life. The sun’s shining and that [01:29:25] kind of seems amazing to us.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me, tell me about, um, Dental [01:29:30] excellence and Robbie because you you, uh, got [01:29:35] work there? Yeah. Down the road for me, I, I tried it four times a day. Yeah. [01:29:40] Um, tell me about it. Like, how did you get involved with Robbie?

Ali Al Hassan: Robbie kind of mentioned it [01:29:45] to me, and I was making a move in London. I was moving from east London to west London. Um, [01:29:50] so it was kind of driven by my, just my personal. I was like, look, I’ve been in East London, boy, now [01:29:55] when I’ve been in London, I’ve been in Canary Wharf now for like five, six years. I was like, I want to be a west London [01:30:00] boy. Now let’s just see what the West like. So that drove it. So first I got a flat moved [01:30:05] up, and then I kind of put the word out. And Robbie also [01:30:10] let me know that he was kind of opening a location. And I’ve been through, um, it’s testament to kind [01:30:15] of the courses and stuff that they put together, but I’ve been through all of that stuff. So I understand their systems and [01:30:20] I, and I get on with their systems and I really get on with their people. Um, you know, I’ve taught a [01:30:25] few of Robbie’s courses as a delegate who’s been through it and then done like, you know, um, [01:30:30] like the injection mould and stuff I’ve taught and I’ve, I’ve done really well, obviously from that stuff. I’m very grateful. [01:30:35] Um, and um, me and Robbie have always got on as people, so it was kind [01:30:40] of like um, there was no job. It was just like, I’m moving here. I’m opening a place. Cool. [01:30:45] What days do you want to do? Done. And then that’s it. I’m there tomorrow.

Payman Langroudi: And are you [01:30:50] getting patience for that from your socials as well? Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Pretty much just from mine. Well it [01:30:55] has just been from mine. I don’t even think they’ve got their, their marketing machine They’re getting [01:31:00] spinning now, but from now it’s been pretty much. Yeah, just just me. Um, [01:31:05] my, so my Instagram is like London, um, Swindon and Midland. [01:31:10] It just finds the right people. Yeah. You can see the analytics, but it just, it finds the right people. [01:31:15] I know my target market. It’s like, uh, 40% boys, 60% girls, [01:31:20] 24 to 35 age range. Um, you, you learn [01:31:25] so much kind of by, by looking, by looking at that data. Um, but yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:31:30] you’re building this house.

Ali Al Hassan: I’m building a house. Yeah. So I bought a house. Um, and [01:31:35] so it’s, it’s near where my parents live in Swindon. So [01:31:40] yeah, like I, I needed to get a, I’m not gonna move into there, but I wanted to jump [01:31:45] on the property ladder. So I got a house, but it was a really doer upper. It was absolutely written off. The owners [01:31:50] died, um, two years. So they didn’t live there for two years. They were in old people’s home. They died [01:31:55] and it got sold.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re kind of doing build in public, right? Like, yeah, yeah, it’s step by step.

Ali Al Hassan: Exactly. [01:32:00] Yeah. So done the driveway doing the heating electrics. But that’s what life’s about. Honestly, life’s just [01:32:05] about new journeys. Um, I’m getting involved in investing. Like I love investing [01:32:10] crypto. Um, no, just, just literally finding financial investing and funds and stuff. Um, [01:32:15] when the, when the Covid, um, uh, bubble happened [01:32:20] for, for six months when everyone stopped working, um, the practices closed for [01:32:25] about six months or so. Uh, I took the bounce back loan and I stuck it in airline stocks against [01:32:30] the advice of my, um, accountant. Uh, but, uh, it [01:32:35] wasn’t even my idea. My dad’s friend works for Intel in their investment division, and I was like, [01:32:40] look, man, airline stocks have plummeted. No one’s flying. I was like, why don’t you just why [01:32:45] don’t I buy airline stocks? And, um, he was like, yeah, here’s a few American things [01:32:50] I’d look at, but he’s like, you’re not putting a lot of money in, are you? I was like, no, I put the whole 50 K bounce back loan [01:32:55] in. Um, and, uh, at that time, I had not a [01:33:00] clue what I was doing, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, but you got the.

Ali Al Hassan: You know, about leverage.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Of course.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. So I didn’t, [01:33:05] so I made an account not knowing that I was 20 times leveraged, [01:33:10] which is the that’s just on that particular platform. That’s [01:33:15] just how they start you off.

Payman Langroudi: So you made a lot of money very quickly and got addicted, completely addicted. So that’s [01:33:20] what happened. So I’ve not told you this story.

Ali Al Hassan: I’ve not told you this story, but um, yeah, so [01:33:25] I’ll finish it. So I put this, um, I put it into airline stocks and [01:33:30] um, I just remember the stock going down a little bit further, but my 50 [01:33:35] k went to 20 K and I’m like, what’s happened here? And I’m like doomsday scenario. I [01:33:40] lose all of this. Look, if I lost all of this money, I knew in a year or two I’d earn it back. So it’s not the end of the world. Did you.

Payman Langroudi: Ever stop? [01:33:45]

Ali Al Hassan: I remember speaking to my brother and I was like, bro, should I just take it out and just take this 20 out? I can [01:33:50] earn the 30 back in whatever. A year ago, he was like, no, bro. In for a penny. In for a pound. [01:33:55] Let’s see what happens. And then it was the first year of Covid. And do you remember when, [01:34:00] um, they started saying that after the summer that by Christmas everything will be normal? Obviously [01:34:05] the opposite happened, but towards the end of summer, everyone was like the waves kind [01:34:10] of gone. Covid, although it took three, four years in that first year, halfway through the [01:34:15] first year, they were like, by end of year, it’s going to be gone. Everything’s fine. Sentiment just kind of rose. And [01:34:20] um, yeah, like I, it [01:34:25] shot up. Yeah. Like crazy. Like, um, [01:34:30] mortgages were paid off. Um, got my dream car. That’s when [01:34:35] I got the black Gt-r. Um, um, and uh.

Payman Langroudi: From that one investment. [01:34:40] Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: My brother, my brother, my brother quit, my dad retired and [01:34:45] my brother quit medicine.

Payman Langroudi: You were massively leveraged on this 20.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, I was [01:34:50] 20 x Leveraged. So if you’re if your if your money’s was going to go up 10%, [01:34:55] instead, it’s going to go up ten times 20. So 200%. Okay. And, and [01:35:00] there was, there was a decent doubled. There was a decent like needle shift. Yeah. Like, like, [01:35:05] yeah, like three like, like it kind of like three exed almost. And then, [01:35:10] um, me and my brother became traders for a little bit. So remember I’m still not working [01:35:15] and neither can my brother. My brother sees this money come in and it just seems like, um, it [01:35:20] seems like it’s just on, um, uh, like a video game. It’s crazy. My dad just retires. [01:35:25] Yeah. So, so early. I’m not working anymore.

Payman Langroudi: You guys are good.

Ali Al Hassan: And, uh, [01:35:30] my brother, he was, he was doing he wanted to be an ophthalmologist. So he went in his second year. And [01:35:35] he was one of those very stud, like he’s, you know, you have to do all these poster presentations and you’ve got to be very nerdy [01:35:40] and like, kiss up to the consultants, but you have to do that to get into these specialities. And, um, [01:35:45] he was like, button this. He, and he just started working. Um, [01:35:50] he just started doing A&E. He became one of those A&E doctors for four night shifts [01:35:55] a week or three night shifts a week is like the same money as what a consultant earns, which is crazy, [01:36:00] by the way. But but I guess it depends if you’re money motivated or what you want to go into, but you earn the same money as [01:36:05] a doctor doing three night shifts a week as what a consultant salary is after working [01:36:10] for like, yeah, consultants earn base from like 80, but you earn 83 nights a week, you’re doing [01:36:15] 12 hour shifts, but you get paid like, you know, like there’s a shortage of doctors supply demand. Yeah, exactly. And [01:36:20] you get these big like locum rates, right? And he just started learning trading. So my brother’s a full time trader [01:36:25] now.

Payman Langroudi: Is he?

Ali Al Hassan: He’s. Yeah. So and this is going back to I can’t even remember the first year of Covid. [01:36:30] Was it 2019.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: 2020, 1920. Uh, because it started in March. [01:36:35] Right. I’m just trying to think if that was March 2019, March.

Payman Langroudi: 2020.

Ali Al Hassan: 2020. So it was that first year [01:36:40] anyway. So, um, we at that time, I’m like, I’m still doing dentistry [01:36:45] because I enjoy it, but I’m literally seeing patients in between. I have financial positions. [01:36:50] And um, at this time we didn’t know it, but, um, we, [01:36:55] we sold that, by the way, um, my brother, I took like half the money out, [01:37:00] thank God, because you’re gonna hear the rest of the story. Um, and, uh, we [01:37:05] had no experience with trading at this point, but we were just, uh, at that time, everyone had money. [01:37:10] Same reason why the Dental boom happened and loads of retail investors started investing, had [01:37:15] the same idea as me. Yeah. So pretty much whatever you buy would go up because [01:37:20] it was on a wave, right? And me and my brother were on Reddit. We’ve always been like kind of computer [01:37:25] nerds, gaming nerves. So we were on that Wall Street bets and we would just read the top [01:37:30] post that most people have liked it. Let’s buy this. It’s half a cent, and [01:37:35] some of these things were going up to like 4 or $5, uh, penny stocks. The reason we got involved [01:37:40] with penny stocks is my family’s like quite religious and my brother’s like, listen, leveraging is haram is [01:37:45] not allowed. You’re taking. You’re taking a loan. And. But the amount of money we’d made, normal [01:37:50] investing just felt like.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, there’s.

Ali Al Hassan: No.

Payman Langroudi: It was on steroids doing. [01:37:55]

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, yeah. So we. So then we found penny stocks. Penny stocks is like Wolf of Wall Street where [01:38:00] there’s legit stocks, which are like half a cent and people just nothing’s [01:38:05] happening with it, but people just pump it up together. If you can find a big enough group of people, they’ll [01:38:10] invest in it and it’ll go to like 3 or $4. And at this time, everyone was putting money [01:38:15] into the stock market.

Payman Langroudi: Someone had money.

Ali Al Hassan: So that was happening on steroids. And also people couldn’t go to work. Yeah, [01:38:20] yeah. You’re sitting in front of your computer. So you know, when you’ve always fancied yourself a trader, you’re going to do it now because [01:38:25] you’ve got nothing.

Payman Langroudi: Else to do. I’ve been there. I’ve been there. Yeah. Yeah. The problem with it, you feel like Gordon Gekko [01:38:30] when things are going up. Yeah. You feel so good.

Ali Al Hassan: So for the whole year.

Payman Langroudi: So, so.

Ali Al Hassan: So moving through that [01:38:35] year because it ended in February. But um, we, my brother, [01:38:40] um, literally went from like a five figure account to a seven figure [01:38:45] account. I had a seven figure account and we like. This is crazy. Our friends are [01:38:50] calling us like, uh, what? Like the world just felt like [01:38:55] a different place. It was for six months. February hit and we genuinely [01:39:00] thought, I’ll show you the screenshots after, but we genuinely thought, um, we couldn’t go [01:39:05] wrong. We were like, this is crazy. Every bet we’re making is spiralling. It’s either [01:39:10] we’re like, a bad case scenario is we’re making 20, 30%. A good case scenario is we’re like [01:39:15] 4 or 5 X our money. We have no concept of risk. We’ve not learnt or studied this [01:39:20] this stuff at all in any way. And then February comes around, people start going back to work [01:39:25] and um, the big climb down happens and we watched our [01:39:30] positions drop over a period of like 2 or 3 months by little drips at a time. We could have taken the money [01:39:35] out. We didn’t, but I watched seven figures go back down [01:39:40] to five figures over time. Just the pride of it, you know, I know I’m right. It’s [01:39:45] going to go up and we’re going to make more. I’m not I’m not taking half the money now. It’s just gonna just the pride [01:39:50] of it. And I’ve still got that just kind of sitting there like [01:39:55] I, if you can, I, I’m just going to show you something for a second if I can. We’re [01:40:00] not going to put it on the thing.

Payman Langroudi: But the problem is that the number of when you see the highest figure, [01:40:05] you kind of peg yourself to the highest. Yeah, exactly. Every other figure just seems incorrect [01:40:10] after that.

Ali Al Hassan: And so, and so my, my brother was like, um, when that happened, [01:40:15] then my brother. So luckily we took a lot of money out just from the initial thing. And very lucky for that. Um, [01:40:20] but, uh, my brother’s like, I’m actually going to learn this now full time. So he [01:40:25] just started doing. Yeah. So he properly sat down and he’s been doing it for years and now he’s doing it, he’s, [01:40:30] um, he’s, he’s, he’s pretty, he’s profitable now. And I’ve been investing [01:40:35] a lot of my money with him. Um, and, and in other funds like index, [01:40:40] I’ve got involved with index funds and, you know, like when you put your money in the S&P and it goes up 10% [01:40:45] and you’re like, if you do that for like 20, 30 years, it adds up to a lot of money. A lot of people don’t think about investing. [01:40:50] I’ve got so many dentists into it as well. Just put a little bit of money aside, max out your Isa, [01:40:55] tax free up, use family members as well. Um, you know, and [01:41:00] that money will kind of just multiply, multiply, multiply, and that will be like your nest egg. Um, but [01:41:05] we enjoy investing, but um, the amount of shits and giggles investments we made. Um, I [01:41:10] have to show you this.

Payman Langroudi: Why do you do that? What comes to [01:41:15] mind when I say, what’s the best lecture you’ve ever been to? The best lecture.

Ali Al Hassan: I’ve ever been [01:41:20] to. The best lecture, the most. The biggest [01:41:25] lecture that comes to mind is not necessarily the best lecture. It was like a shock, but [01:41:30] it was our first anatomy lecture by Professor Moxham at Cardiff. Uh, [01:41:35] for people just left. They just started crying and left. We literally [01:41:40] lost four people from dental school in that lecture and I remember trying to write things down. [01:41:45] I’m like, what the hell is going on? Like, I’m, I’m not in school no more. Yeah. This is like [01:41:50] a space stock that I bought. How much down I am on that. Look how much down I am. The [01:41:55] amount of shits and giggles. Yeah. No, but that’s just what. That’s how much that’s where the [01:42:00] what? The fluctuations I’m talking about. I’ve got multiple just fluctuations like that. Um, [01:42:05] I’m back to dentistry now, but my brother does that stuff. But honestly.

Payman Langroudi: He’s an older doctor at all. No. [01:42:10] Interesting.

Ali Al Hassan: No. So now he just trades. Um yeah. He just trades and like, you know, [01:42:15] that that kind of, um, trading lifestyle and I give my money to him and he invests it [01:42:20] and um.

Payman Langroudi: Any other course or lecture come to mind.

Ali Al Hassan: So, uh, [01:42:25] course or lecture I really liked there’s a course called, um, have [01:42:30] you heard of, uh, assif. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Business course. Yeah, yeah, yeah, [01:42:35] yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Squadron strategy. Really good. So there’s an FQ course and a Pip [01:42:40] course. Um, I think people get really hung up over the physical courses like [01:42:45] how to do this, how to do that. I think mindset and, um, having [01:42:50] systems is five times all of that stuff, all of that stuff. So I’ve, I’ve [01:42:55] mentored dentists who’ve literally tripled or quadrupled their income, not [01:43:00] from being any better at dentistry, but just to understanding, first of all, breaking [01:43:05] their limiting beliefs. Second of all, making sure that they’re communicating better with their patients [01:43:10] to, um, make sure that they know everything about their oral health and, and [01:43:15] positioning themselves better, um, getting better case acceptance and [01:43:20] zoning their diaries. So they actually have the diary space to do what they’re already doing, but 3 [01:43:25] or 4 times more treatment mix to, um, like not treatment mix. [01:43:30] And they’re doing the same thing and they’re literally double or tripling their the income? It’s crazy. Um, [01:43:35] I can go. So I’ve got, um, a friend of mine, very close. He loves doing crowns. [01:43:40] He’s like, I hate doing composite. I hate doing, um, uh, Invisalign, [01:43:45] but I do like doing indirect. I do a little bit of indirect this and that.

Ali Al Hassan: And I was like, oh, cool. Um, so how many [01:43:50] crowns are you doing? Uh, like a week? He’s like, I do, I do like one every day. [01:43:55] And I know he hasn’t. He’s, I’ve talked to him before. He’s in an old demographic kind of area. And I was like, how many [01:44:00] exams are you doing a day? He’s like, I’m doing, um, about, uh, 15 [01:44:05] to 18 examinations every single day on like old people. I was like, [01:44:10] I might be wrong on this, but if I’m seeing 15 to 18 old people [01:44:15] every day, I see very I see 2 or 3 consultations. I’m totally different to him. But I was like, if I’m [01:44:20] really being honest, if I’m seeing, uh, ten old people’s teeth every single [01:44:25] day, I reckon I would find a use case where you need, [01:44:30] you know, a crown maybe I would say, you know, probably ten times on ten patients. [01:44:35] Like there’s, there’s, there’s, there’s going to be big fillings there that ultimately will last longer if they’ve [01:44:40] got cuspal coverage. There’s going to be, um, failing restorations. There’s going to be [01:44:45] cracked teeth, there’s going to be this and that. And, and um.

Payman Langroudi: So it seemed low to you.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. [01:44:50] He, he wasn’t, he just, he wasn’t. And I, and he was like, um, he was like, yeah, I [01:44:55] mean, when people have these big fillings, I just kind of just leave it and I don’t say anything. And I was like, um, [01:45:00] when you’re doing an examination, it’s so important to be thorough [01:45:05] with it and letting patients know exactly what’s going on. Because the flip side is [01:45:10] you’re actually, I was like, to him, I was like, by not telling these patients that there is an option of a crown, [01:45:15] you’re, you’re not only missing it, you’re being negligent. They could turn around. That tooth could fracture. [01:45:20] You never offered it. And let’s say they they could make an issue for you. You need [01:45:25] to lay everything out on the table. So many dentists don’t even kind of lay [01:45:30] it out, or they have a self-limiting belief that someone’s come in with, [01:45:35] with, uh, you know, six amalgams in their back teeth or all and, you know, evidentially, [01:45:40] if you crown those teeth, they will last longer in my opinion. Um, [01:45:45] and, you know, or, or they have cracks in them, but you see that there’s six [01:45:50] of them and you don’t want to tell the patient because you’re like, I don’t want to stump up this big sum of money because [01:45:55] I’m feel uncomfortable having that conversation.

Payman Langroudi: But Frank Speer talks about it in, [01:46:00] in, in the terms of like, if your mother goes to a cardiologist, yeah, you want [01:46:05] the cardiologist to give you the full story. Yeah, just.

Ali Al Hassan: Lay it all out and you will be shocked by [01:46:10] how many people actually want you to help them.

Payman Langroudi: But the, you know, if the hand [01:46:15] on heart truth on whether or not you’re on lay is going to make this tooth [01:46:20] last longer. Yeah. Or a crown or a crown. Yeah. It needs to be [01:46:25] nuanced. It needs to be nuanced in insomuch as you know, the amalgam has been there for 30 [01:46:30] years. You take that amalgam out, you cause a problem sometimes, right? And it’s, you know, this [01:46:35] is this is consent, right? This is what consent is.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. But give them the option.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Give them the option. Um, [01:46:40] and um, just by laying out the options, getting an intra oral camera, taking pictures. [01:46:45]

Payman Langroudi: Scanner. Right. Yeah. Scanner.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. Or you have.

Payman Langroudi: You bought your own scanner?

Ali Al Hassan: No, I’ve got the practices.

Payman Langroudi: Everyone [01:46:50] has.

Ali Al Hassan: It. Yeah. Yeah, everyone has one. But, um, if in terms of, [01:46:55] uh. But you can get a £30 intraoral camera if.

Payman Langroudi: You do you see jazz, jazz. Galati just did a thing. [01:47:00] Uh, I think he might have even selling it. He’s got this like a pair of glasses that has [01:47:05] a screen in it. And then the intraoral camera comes up on the screen in the glasses.

Ali Al Hassan: Oh, [01:47:10] yeah, that seems like an amazing idea. Yeah, exactly. But but for just to any normal [01:47:15] associate, one amazing tip, two amazing. A few amazing tips. Get, um, get a camera, [01:47:20] start taking pictures of your work. Non-negotiable. Just do that. Everything will get better. Your [01:47:25] work gets better because you see it time and time out. You see what didn’t go well. So next time you do [01:47:30] it, you’ll kind of work on it. Um, second thing is, is um get [01:47:35] an intra oral camera. Yeah. Um, TIFF’s really big on this too is, uh, when you start showing [01:47:40] there’s a difference between you telling and you showing. If you can’t afford a scanner, your practice isn’t going to buy a scanner. [01:47:45] You can get a £30 Intraoral camera that will USB in. It’ll be fine. It comes with [01:47:50] the sleeves, everything. Um, and, uh, don’t be afraid [01:47:55] to just lay it out for the patient. It’s not for you to decide what a high sum is or a low [01:48:00] sum is. Just make sure you’ve laid out all the information. Um, you’ve given your suggestions and [01:48:05] the options and just do that for every single patient.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, do you, for instance, give a patient [01:48:10] a treatment plan at the end of the examination? Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. So I’ll be like, I [01:48:15] think we should do this. They’ll come in saying, I, I, this is what I want to achieve. Um, [01:48:20] you active listening, you need to listen to them. You need to really hear what their problem is, what [01:48:25] they want. Um, make sure that they position yourself well. Position yourself [01:48:30] well. Means make sure um, you need to you are an expert in your field, [01:48:35] but you need to make sure you show the patient that. And that comes from your nonverbal communication, [01:48:40] showing the patient you’ve listened to them by repeating the information back to them and you [01:48:45] see them nodding. So, so subconsciously they’re ticking that box that this guy understands me, this, which you do, [01:48:50] but you need to show that to the patient. Otherwise they won’t trust you to do the treatment to help them. Yeah. Um, there’s [01:48:55] so many little things like this that I’ve kind of incorporated in the psychological game is [01:49:00] so strong. Remember, the ultimate aim is to help the patient, but you need to help the patient, help themselves [01:49:05] to trust you and believe in you if you believe you’re doing the right thing, which we all do. Um, [01:49:10] so, uh, yeah, get get the patient in position yourself. Well, make sure [01:49:15] you hear the problem. Be clear about what the problem is. Then you do your clinical stuff. [01:49:20] Um, communicate back to the patient regarding what’s going on, and then tie it off by [01:49:25] saying, this is how that’s going to fix your problem. And these are the treatments that I recommend. I’m [01:49:30] not a you can do this, you can do this, you can do this, you can do this, you can do this. It’s your choice. Yeah. [01:49:35] It’s not that’s personally, I think that’s not, it’s not helping you and it’s not helping [01:49:40] the patient.

Payman Langroudi: I think as he talks about this. Right.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that’s what going back to that course there [01:49:45] they they they got off their bum. They left home. They if you go [01:49:50] do you go to Asda for no reason. No, no. You go to Asda because you need to buy something [01:49:55] there at the dentist because they want you to give them your opinion. Yeah. Um [01:50:00] I’m very much give give your opinion and back yourself up. If you, [01:50:05] if you start letting the patient run around with um and choosing everything, I think that’s [01:50:10] how a lot of people run into issues and problems because then they’re doing something that they don’t [01:50:15] fully back themselves. Um, and then that’s going to snowball into incidents with patients. [01:50:20] You know, I do so much, um, composite bonding. I never [01:50:25] discuss shade with patients.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. I literally just say, do [01:50:30] you. I listen to what they say. Yeah. They either say I want. [01:50:35] I can’t remember the last time I got shade about. We don’t even talk about colours. They either say they want [01:50:40] really white teeth and I know what shade that is or they say they, they [01:50:45] um want composite bonding and they’re like they like said and said person. I use [01:50:50] three shades. I literally use three shades. Um, the whitest of the white shade, the, [01:50:55] the, the, the normal composite bonding shade. That’s quite white, but it’s not the whitest [01:51:00] of the white. Yeah. And then the slightly toned down BL for kind of just [01:51:05] above B1 version for the people who aren’t natural, just make it simple. That’s yeah, that’s that’s [01:51:10] the tone down. That’s the tone down in my, in my demographic. That’s the tone down me and you are far away from [01:51:15] that, by the way. We need to, we need to get some whitening done. After this, you should do a podcast [01:51:20] while whitening, but we won’t be able to talk. Um, but, uh, and they, um, they. [01:51:25]

Payman Langroudi: They did discuss whether you’re going to do with you decide yourself.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. I’m like, yeah, I, I just do [01:51:30] it just, um, take it in your hands.

Payman Langroudi: Have you ever done bonding in the patients hated it.

Ali Al Hassan: I’ve [01:51:35] had um.

Payman Langroudi: Too bulky sometimes.

Ali Al Hassan: I’ve, I’ve, I’ve had, uh, 90% [01:51:40] of people, uh, half the people are shocked, but then happy [01:51:45] a few weeks later and half the people are happy straight away. I’ve had a handful of cases where they’ve just started crying [01:51:50] and they’ve said, take it off. But from me, from myself, I’m happy with [01:51:55] how it looks. And I wouldn’t let you look at the teeth if I wasn’t happy. So [01:52:00] I know you walking around with these teeth is going to be a compliment to you and not a detriment. And I believe [01:52:05] that to my core. And I’ve refused and said, look, I’m I’m not going to I could take it off. I’m not going [01:52:10] to give me two weeks. Yeah, yeah. I’ve, I’ve. And both in both [01:52:15] of those cases, I’ve not had to take the composite off. They’ve come back and been fine and I’ve not [01:52:20] touched would ever had to. Um. Yeah. Just do it and just take it off. You know, like those turkey [01:52:25] cases where I had a patient message me yesterday who went to Turkey, got it done, hated it. And she’s like, they’re taking it all off [01:52:30] in the morning. I’ve had to do that for other people who’ve been elsewhere, but I’ve [01:52:35] never had no, none of my patients who’ve had composite bonding have gone back to not bonding. Uh, luckily. [01:52:40] Um.

Payman Langroudi: And do you recognise the sort of the fragility [01:52:45] of composite and. Yeah, absolutely. It’s not the best material [01:52:50] in the world.

Ali Al Hassan: It’s not, but it works.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very unforgiving, very unforgiving, um, [01:52:55] material.

Ali Al Hassan: It’s unforgiving. Again, if you’ve not put in the hours.

Payman Langroudi: You take time on each, each [01:53:00] tooth like longer than, longer than people think. Right to get.

Ali Al Hassan: It. So I’ll do, I’ll [01:53:05] do ten teeth, composite veneers, ten teeth. I’ll do, but it’s slow down over time. [01:53:10] But now I’ll do. Um, sorry, it’s sped up over time, but these days I’ll do ten teeth [01:53:15] freehand. I will do in probably about an hour and a half to two hours. No way. Yeah, I’ll do 20 [01:53:20] teeth in a morning, like from an 830 to and and that’s like with time to spare. But [01:53:25] it used to be a full arch in a full morning when I did that mini smile case, I think it was eight teeth. Yeah, [01:53:30] it was the whole morning. And for the longest time it was like that. But um, you, [01:53:35] you say you, you mentioned that it is technique sensitive and everything, but just [01:53:40] put the 10,000 hours in, everything becomes predictable, uh, in the scope [01:53:45] of time. Once you’ve done it enough times and you just understand it works. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:53:50] the key to it then.

Ali Al Hassan: The key to it is.

Payman Langroudi: Some of the keys to.

Ali Al Hassan: So the keys [01:53:55] to it is, is use a material that works in your hand. So Venus Pearl has always [01:54:00] worked very well for me. So I’ve always used Venus Pearl. Um, and stick [01:54:05] with it. Um, go on a course which teaches you more like the full [01:54:10] arch approach, if that’s what you want to do. Which mini smile makeover gave me the confidence to do that and [01:54:15] have that case lined up?

Payman Langroudi: Many of your cases are injection moulding compared to.

Ali Al Hassan: I [01:54:20] don’t injection mould at all anymore. Yeah, injection moulding was like a season. I probably did [01:54:25] like 100 120 cases.

Payman Langroudi: But then do you feel like you don’t have enough control? [01:54:30]

Ali Al Hassan: I kind of, um. No, no, no, it was just it was just business lab fee. Oh, [01:54:35] no lab fee. Now, I was able to kind of I was able to recreate it 80% [01:54:40] as well for you. Once you see those teeth shapes so many times [01:54:45] and then you’re doing the modifications after anyway, you just, you’ll just get an eyeball for it. [01:54:50] So what I would say is actually injection mould teaches you the free hand. It’s almost the training [01:54:55] wheels for the free hand. Um, and then when you see those shapes so [01:55:00] many times. Yeah. So, you know, I don’t actually, um, you know, I finish my teeth upside [01:55:05] down, you know, all the, you know, all the smile of yours you see On [01:55:10] the video or whatever when you see them. I’ve not seen the teeth yet. This [01:55:15] way around until the patient sees them. That’s one weird thing about me. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t bring the patient up to check. [01:55:20]

Ali Al Hassan: I’ve never seen them until I see them in the mirror on my mum’s life. Every [01:55:25] finish you’ve seen, I’ve finished with them like this. And I’ve been behind them upside [01:55:30] down, taking the picture, sat them up. And then we do the reveal. And that’s the reveal. And [01:55:35] I see them the same time as them.

Payman Langroudi: I’m shocked.

Ali Al Hassan: But it’s what you’re used to.

Payman Langroudi: I’m shocked. [01:55:40]

Ali Al Hassan: I’m used to seeing teeth upside down. I’m used to seeing teeth upside down.

Payman Langroudi: You need to bring him up to.

Ali Al Hassan: It [01:55:45] kind of makes sense, right? But no, I’ve not needed [01:55:50] to.

Payman Langroudi: It’s your. It’s your superpower.

Ali Al Hassan: When when I see. I think what it is is when I see them smile before [01:55:55] I can kind of see where the lens needs to go and not go. And I have the memory to remember that when I’m [01:56:00] doing it that way. Um, and so.

Payman Langroudi: Have you got something on the screen you’re copying?

Ali Al Hassan: Sometimes I’ll refer [01:56:05] to if it’s difficult. We’re changing a lot. I will get my camera and look at their smile picture and [01:56:10] I’m like, wait, how much do we need to add to this incisor I’m doing upside down, but when the patient [01:56:15] sees their teeth right side up, that’s first time I see the teeth right side up every single time. Um, [01:56:20] we’ve genuinely.

Payman Langroudi: Come to it’s.

Ali Al Hassan: Whatever your quirks are, whatever.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve [01:56:25] come to the end of our time. I’m gonna, I’m gonna end it with the usual questions we ask everyone, okay, fantasy [01:56:30] dinner party three guests. Dead or alive. [01:56:35] Who who are you thinking?

Ali Al Hassan: Fantasy dinner party. [01:56:40] Um. Elon Musk is going to be there. Uh, [01:56:45] Mbes. Mohammed bin Salman [01:56:50] is going to be there. Oh, yeah. Um, who else do I really? There’s [01:56:55] loads of people I’d want to talk to. Who else would I want to talk to? Um. Just [01:57:00] someone who’s very, very [01:57:05] Accomplished. Um, I’d [01:57:10] also want to. They’re the two that stick out to me. I almost can’t even, like, think of a [01:57:15] third, but I really want to meet and speak to Elon Musk. Um, and [01:57:20] I, I would, I, I’ve always like, I mean, I would say another guy is, um, [01:57:25] uh, a guy called faker. He’s a guy, uh, he’s the, he’s the biggest guy in [01:57:30] a video game that I spend all the time.

Payman Langroudi: Playing.

Ali Al Hassan: And he’s like the goat. The best ever, unquestionably. [01:57:35] Um, they’ve done a world championship for this game over the last.

Payman Langroudi: Like, how [01:57:40] high did you get in the rankings? Be as high as like the 15 year old boys.

Ali Al Hassan: When I [01:57:45] was younger I was much better. And now I’m just like stuck in middle league. But it’s fine. Like I understand [01:57:50] like it’s it’s it’s all good. Um. Um, [01:57:55] I just, I just feel like he’d be very interesting.

Payman Langroudi: He’s a funny guy to speak to. One of my friends met [01:58:00] him. Yeah. He liked him. He liked him.

Ali Al Hassan: But yeah, he loves gaming too.

Payman Langroudi: Is that.

Ali Al Hassan: Right? Yeah. He loves her. [01:58:05] That’s he. The Saudis love video games. They grow up playing video games. Call of Duty, [01:58:10] all of that stuff. They’re very big on that. That’s why they’re importing a lot of their sports washing a lot of the video games [01:58:15] over there. Um, but I just think it’s a very interesting part of the world to be in. There’s [01:58:20] a few Leaders you could talk to.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting what he’s doing with Saudi.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, yeah. But but also [01:58:25] just talking about that whole geography as a whole, like sometimes I think, what do these people like know that we [01:58:30] do not know? Um, you know, and like what the elites know that we don’t know all this stuff, [01:58:35] all this stuff coming out with like the Epstein files. I find that stuff really interesting. Like [01:58:40] I, I, I, I follow all of that stuff, um, with America and, [01:58:45] uh, yeah, I just like kind of.

Payman Langroudi: Are you like a news junkie? Do you like.

Ali Al Hassan: Not a news junkie, [01:58:50] but more in terms of like conspiracy theories.

Payman Langroudi: Do. Me too.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. So it’s not even [01:58:55] like everyday news. It’s more like stuff to do with conspiracies where it’s like stuff’s been hidden and [01:59:00] people don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very common these days. Yeah, it’s very common these days.

Ali Al Hassan: The hidden world. I’m very interested in the hidden [01:59:05] world.

Payman Langroudi: You know, it’s a funny thing.

Ali Al Hassan: And I think over the last few years, I’ve seen part of The Hidden World from a lot of these [01:59:10] travels and meeting lots of people. I’ve seen things that I didn’t know existed. Um, I’ve had experiences [01:59:15] that I didn’t think were possible, um, without going into too much detail, but, um, you [01:59:20] start seeing that there’s stuff out there that you didn’t even fathom as an experience, [01:59:25] you know, growing up, you didn’t even know if it’s existed.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so funny because like, I [01:59:30] don’t know, I was a conspiracy theorist when it wasn’t fashionable to be conspiracy theorists. And I say [01:59:35] to my friends, guys, they’re recording everything. They’re like, your phone is constantly recording [01:59:40] you or something. Yeah, yeah. And a couple of my friends did an intervention. They were like, dude, we’re [01:59:45] really worried about you. This sort of thing. Really? Yeah. Ben.

Ali Al Hassan: Did you put a sticker on your [01:59:50] laptop? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But I saw. I saw so many. Like, I saw Bill gates sticker on his lap.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, [01:59:55] exactly.

Payman Langroudi: But then, but then. But then that Snowden event happened. Yeah, [02:00:00] it’s all true. When they said no, it is actually recording. Right. So why not? So I went [02:00:05] back to my buddies, my two guys who did the intervention. I said, what are you thinking now? And they’re like, what? And I said, [02:00:10] well, you know, Snowden and, and they didn’t they didn’t even like apologise.

Ali Al Hassan: Some [02:00:15] people prefer their heads in the sand and everyone’s different. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But some people just, you know, [02:00:20] um, silence is golden. Ignorance is bliss, right? That’s true. Um. Yeah. [02:00:25] Crazy. Crazy.

Payman Langroudi: How do you how would you like to be remembered?

Ali Al Hassan: How [02:00:30] would I, I don’t, I don’t really even fancy being remembered. I don’t that’s not something I’m. I will [02:00:35] be forgotten. And I’m okay with being forgotten. But what I want to know is for me, I had an amazing life, [02:00:40] I did good, and I looked after my family. That’s. If I can do that. And if I’m ticking those boxes, [02:00:45] like right now, I’m happy remembered. You’re going to be gone. You’re not even going to experience it. Think about it. [02:00:50] So why even give effort?

Payman Langroudi: It becomes a big thing for people, you know, like, why does Trump want a [02:00:55] peace prize that your legacy?

Ali Al Hassan: I think if it.

Payman Langroudi: You as you get older, [02:01:00] it becomes a big thing for.

Ali Al Hassan: Me. I’ve never had I’ve never been an egotistical person. Like I genuinely. I’m [02:01:05] happy to be like, I’m the I, I’m, I’m just in my own bubble. I’m [02:01:10] living my life like I’m, you know, because people are like, oh, I want to set up my kids. And I’m like, [02:01:15] the opposite of that. I’m like, no, I want them to have, they’re going to have nothing. They’ve got to start from zero. I’m [02:01:20] not trying to, I think, um, I focus on my life. I want to have the best [02:01:25] I want to be on in years future. I just want to say that I lived a life that probably [02:01:30] like no one else, uh, or like, you know, I lived the top 0.0, [02:01:35] nought, nought, 1% life. Not like Elon Musk level. Um, he’s probably [02:01:40] done some crazy stuff. Um, but obviously and, and obviously on the good side, but I just want [02:01:45] to have experienced things, been places, done things. Um, you know, because you, only you, [02:01:50] you get one shot at it and then.

Payman Langroudi: You’re definitely squeezing the lemon man. You’re definitely squeezing.

Ali Al Hassan: I [02:01:55] want to squeeze it till there’s not a drop left.

Payman Langroudi: I like that. I like that. Long may it continue, buddy. It’s [02:02:00] lovely to see you. Yeah. I’m enjoying.

Ali Al Hassan: I’ll see you again soon.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. Ministry of sounds [02:02:05] going to be good.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right, that’s right. We’re going to have a bloody good time. Amazing. Thanks for doing this. [02:02:10]

Ali Al Hassan: Awesome. Thank you so much.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, [02:02:15] the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [02:02:20] in dentistry. Your hosts Payman [02:02:25] Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. [02:02:30] If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from [02:02:35] me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has [02:02:40] had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, [02:02:45] think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you think [02:02:50] might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

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