Month: July 2026

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[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [00:00:40] in dentistry. Your hosts [00:00:45] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:50] gives me great pleasure to welcome Cheyenne Patel onto the podcast. I don’t [00:00:55] know if I’m going to call this one of the, you know, future Dentists kind of series [00:01:00] or because shines a dental student, but a bit different to most dental [00:01:05] students. It’s the reason you’re here, my buddy.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. I mean, I don’t know if you’re having a slow day at the office and I [00:01:10] got the call, but I appreciate the invite.

Payman Langroudi: Payman fifth year of dental school [00:01:15] in Liverpool.

Shyun Patel: In Liverpool? That’s correct.

Payman Langroudi: And recently come off your BDS, a conference which [00:01:20] was unbelievable. Really, really massive, massive thing to have accomplished.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, I really appreciate that. [00:01:25] A little bit more grey and probably taking a couple years off my life, but here we are.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:01:30] where did you grow up?

Shyun Patel: Grew up in a place just outside Birmingham called Hagley. Mhm. [00:01:35] A little town and went to Kezia School in Birmingham. I [00:01:40] think a lot of dental students have actually been to that school, so yeah. Um I [00:01:45] went to that school as well, so yeah, quite a small world, but. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:01:50] did you know Tony?

Shyun Patel: Yeah, yeah, I was really, I was almost best friends with, um, his younger brother. [00:01:55] Oh really? So he and his younger brother have been to India together and Canada together and knew that. [00:02:00]

Payman Langroudi: So is he like a banker now?

Shyun Patel: Yes. He’s, uh, working at.

Payman Langroudi: Something [00:02:05] in.

Shyun Patel: Blackrock, I think. Yeah, something like that. So he’s doing really well.

Payman Langroudi: So were [00:02:10] you. Did you always know you were going to be a dentist, or when did you realise?

Shyun Patel: No. So it’s [00:02:15] a funny story. Growing up, I actually went to my GCSEs. [00:02:20] I chose German, which I turned out to be not not so good at because I was set on being an engineer. Um, [00:02:25] that was down to the fact that I love doing things in my hands. Pretty generic. And I ended up playing three instruments [00:02:30] growing up. So I thought, okay, um, engineering was, was the play for me as [00:02:35] I got older and especially going to, to quite a good school, you think you’re good at maths until you meet [00:02:40] someone that’s really, really, really good at maths. You know, the guys that introverted and can’t hold eye [00:02:45] contact but are exceptional at maths and physics. And I thought, I can’t compete with these guys. So [00:02:50] did my work experience, tried engineering and wasn’t [00:02:55] a conclusion I came to, but always been told, you know. I’ve known myself. I’m good in my hands. But I talk a little bit too [00:03:00] much. Married the two together and thought dentistry is a is a profession for me. [00:03:05] Played with the idea of medicine and just enjoyed the the autonomy aspect of [00:03:10] dentistry and the rest has kind of been been history. And yeah, so I’m loving, loving [00:03:15] the course. It’s gone gone by in a flash.

Payman Langroudi: What about the process of getting into dental school? Because my, my daughters [00:03:20] just said she wants to be a dentist.

Shyun Patel: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: And looking into it, it’s much more difficult than we went [00:03:25] in.

Shyun Patel: Year by year. It gets harder and harder. I don’t know if I want to go back if I get in. I was very fortunate that [00:03:30] I got all of my offers, so I got into King’s Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool. And [00:03:35] when people say you got into King’s, didn’t choose King’s. Everyone’s gobsmacked. But um, no, I’m, I’m [00:03:40] a avid Liverpool supporter, which is why I.

Payman Langroudi: Football.

Shyun Patel: Football. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s why you.

Shyun Patel: Went. That’s why I went to Liverpool. [00:03:45] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So people talk about King’s. But London [00:03:50] is not a good town for a student.

Shyun Patel: You went to Cardiff right. Yeah. How did you find that campus uni.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. [00:03:55]

Shyun Patel: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: I love that. I went there by mistake. I mean, when you’re 17, [00:04:00] you think you know it. All right? Yeah. So I want to stay in London. I didn’t get my grades. And then Cardiff [00:04:05] said, yeah, you can come in. I missed it by one.

Shyun Patel: Very beautiful uni I’ve heard. Picturesque.

Payman Langroudi: Just that the Welsh [00:04:10] are amazing people, amazing people, fun, funny, family [00:04:15] orientated. Very very different to what?

Shyun Patel: Well, it’s what you’re saying about the Welsh people I find with the Irish. [00:04:20] But Scousers are almost not English. We say we’re Scouse, not English. Yeah, [00:04:25] yeah. And they’ve got their own community. They’ve got.

Payman Langroudi: An Irish sort of tinge to.

Shyun Patel: Them. Yeah. They’ve got North Wales and [00:04:30] they’ve got Irish and it’s a mix of cultures.

Payman Langroudi: People in Liverpool are amazing.

Shyun Patel: They’re funny, they’re kind, they’re welcoming. [00:04:35] I love Liverpool. Yeah. And um one thing for me I’ve realised that [00:04:40] we’re we’re very fortunate that people have different stress points. So I say my [00:04:45] my brother did geography at UCL and he had stress when he graduated and he was looking for a [00:04:50] job. Whereas for us, we walk into a job, but the stress comes during the ucat [00:04:55] doing the interviews, all those processes. So it was it was definitely difficult that in [00:05:00] a way. Now come to the end of my studies, to some extent, everything I’ve done [00:05:05] from primary school to secondary school has led up to this, this moment. [00:05:10] So from GCSEs and I didn’t actually do A-levels, I did something called International Baccalaureate.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, my kids are doing [00:05:15] that.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. So. Oh, I’m so sorry that they’re doing that.

Payman Langroudi: It’s they’re not doing that. They, they chose A-levels, [00:05:20] but their school does it.

Shyun Patel: Yes. It’s, um, an interesting, interesting [00:05:25] choice. But it was, it was something I wasn’t very confident of getting in. Um, [00:05:30] I applied and academia was never my strong point. But once I got an interview, [00:05:35] I’m quite comfortable in that environment. So I think it’s just understanding what they want, [00:05:40] how to convey yourself, portray yourself and, uh, fortunately got through the process. But like you said, year [00:05:45] by year, these kids are coming out like superstars. Um, but then there’s, there’s a mix because [00:05:50] you’ve got one side of the process is a lot harder. And the second side, if you look at the [00:05:55] new generation coming through, they say they’re a lot less social. So. So it’s hard [00:06:00] to marry those two up where you’ve got a harder process, but then you’ve got a society [00:06:05] that’s more and more glued to their phones and less social. And, you know, I said at the conference, we’re not in the [00:06:10] teeth business. We’re in. We’re in the people business for sure.

Payman Langroudi: For sure. And I think it’s an interesting question, [00:06:15] right? That is it that the the best students in a level [00:06:20] make the best students in dentistry and do they make [00:06:25] the best dentists compared to my time, then she wasn’t that hard [00:06:30] to get into. It really wasn’t. Yeah. A lot of the year were failed medics. Okay. Back [00:06:35] then. Um, and it just wasn’t. So you used to get pretty practical types of people [00:06:40] into dentistry, some of them good at good at communication and all that. And like you said, communication is [00:06:45] really.

Shyun Patel: The foundation of everything.

Payman Langroudi: The key skill in dentistry.

Shyun Patel: Understanding people is everything. [00:06:50] I think. I always say, um, someone could I try to explain to, to [00:06:55] a, to a patient, you could have someone come up to you that gives you a composite filling. [00:07:00] Let’s say it’s at the back and you can’t tell. And it’s a, a ten out of ten filling and someone else comes and gives you a [00:07:05] 7 or 8, seven out of ten dental filling. And if it’s functional, you’ll [00:07:10] know and I’ll know, but the patient will know. Yeah. But the patient, the guy that gave him [00:07:15] a, the patient, a seven out of ten filling, they go, how’s your holiday? How’s your family? You know, what have [00:07:20] you been up to? It’s more likely to, to be seen and be more popular and be more successful, quote [00:07:25] unquote, as a dentist than that one that’s done a fantastic job, knows all the morphology, but in [00:07:30] and out. And I think that is something that I feel that in my opinion, my generation and being [00:07:35] in dental school is something that’s not stressed upon as much. And I think something that was very integral to your generation [00:07:40] is people and, you know, psychology. And I think that’s I.

Payman Langroudi: Mean, if I had to pick [00:07:45] between those two scenarios, you know, like a seven out of ten. Technically ten out of ten communication or [00:07:50] the opposite. I definitely go for the communication guy.

Shyun Patel: 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Because it’s heartbreaking. [00:07:55] We both know people who are very technically good, of course, and very bad on the [00:08:00] other side. And it’s heartbreaking, man, because the patients don’t know they’re good 100%. [00:08:05] Their staff don’t know they’re good. Yeah. And they might have the best matrixing, the best whatever it is. [00:08:10]

Shyun Patel: Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: Um, of course the best is if you had both sides for sure. Um, but [00:08:15] I don’t know, pick a surgeon based on his bedside manner rather [00:08:20] than his technical skill.

Shyun Patel: I don’t want to put disrespect. Maybe that’s the wrong podcast to say this on, [00:08:25] but you could teach a lot of people how to do dentistry, what you could teach a lot of people how to dentistry. [00:08:30] I feel like you could get someone to spend enough time with them. You know, these days.

Payman Langroudi: You think you can teach the communication side. [00:08:35]

Shyun Patel: I’m very you know, I think this goes to quite a deep philosophical [00:08:40] debate that we can go into where I was talking to my friends about how much can you change someone [00:08:45] you know, can, if I was some sort of, you know, mastermind [00:08:50] puppet master and I could take a baby from birth, could I turn them into Payman Langroudi with the right [00:08:55] inputs and outputs? And I kind of think, you know, when you think of standard deviation on a graph [00:09:00] and you’ve got a point here, and I think everyone in terms of balancing nature and nurture is [00:09:05] somewhere on a graph, and there’s only a top barrel and bottom barrel in which someone can [00:09:10] change. So I think majority of people can learn communication, but there’s an extent [00:09:15] to maybe which they naturally. Yeah, comes naturally. And I think [00:09:20] that learning communication is a lot harder than learning a skill because communication is all around [00:09:25] us. It’s people. It’s actually a lot more intricate, I feel. I think conversations now you [00:09:30] feel, I always say they’re like a tango, you know, it’s knowing where to step and when to push and when to pull. And [00:09:35] there’s some guy I used to get wrong a lot where people would say, hey, I [00:09:40] went to this place on holiday and I go, that’s fantastic. I went there and I’d talk about.

Payman Langroudi: About.

Shyun Patel: Yourself. Yeah. But it’s [00:09:45] more me trying to share the experience, but it doesn’t come across right. So you’ve got to actually, with time, learn how to [00:09:50] balance a conversation. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, I think.

Payman Langroudi: I think conversations are not [00:09:55] like any other art, right? There’s a big part of it is curiosity for sure. Um, [00:10:00] but you’re right in that one of the traps people fall into is talk about themselves, you know, like [00:10:05] if any sentence starts with I is always a bit of a weak sentence, you know, most definitely. Um, [00:10:10] at the same time, it’s unavoidable as well.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. I guess it’s showing relatability. [00:10:15] Yeah. It’s an interesting concept actually. So there was a book that I [00:10:20] was reading a while ago and it was Dale Carnegie. And he goes and he says [00:10:25] the key to being successful is making friends. And the key to making friends is not to be interesting, [00:10:30] but to be interested.

Payman Langroudi: How to win friends and influence.

Shyun Patel: People, of course. And [00:10:35] I know everything about me, but I don’t know everything about you. So and I think that kind [00:10:40] of feels kind of steps into my ethos that you can learn something from everyone. And [00:10:45] I don’t know whether you find it in the dental industry, but in life you have people that kind of turn their nose up to that [00:10:50] person. I can’t learn something from this, but someone can teach how to tie their shoelaces in a different way. And I [00:10:55] just think having an open mindset that every person you interact with is almost [00:11:00] can add to your toolbox of becoming this more fulfilled, better person. I think you have more enriched experience [00:11:05] of life.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And you know, the way you’re framing it there is [00:11:10] like, in the end, it’s a successful way for yourself to be [00:11:15] interested in people. But I think there’s almost like a respect question [00:11:20] for sure that the next person walking down the street, whoever that is. [00:11:25]

Shyun Patel: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Is deserving 100% to be seen by you [00:11:30] 100%. At the same time, I know friends, people who say, look, time on this [00:11:35] planet is limited. I want to spend time with people who can, you know, push me forward. And [00:11:40] they’ve got that sort of weird outlook on things as well.

Shyun Patel: Do you feel [00:11:45] so in your journey to where you are today? I feel like you don’t know what you don’t know. [00:11:50] And I found that the things that have propelled [00:11:55] me, I’ve not even gone to places directly. Let’s say you go to a conference. Fine. It’s oftentimes [00:12:00] at the restaurant or at the bar after that, have the best conversations that propels you. So it’s. Have you found you [00:12:05] find that sometimes just that conversation you thought for the pleasure of the conversation. Yeah. Takes you somewhere you don’t [00:12:10] even realise. Yeah. I think maybe that perspective would be.

Payman Langroudi: And look, this is why I’m doing this Ministry of Sound thing. [00:12:15] Yeah, yeah. Because, um, at events. What do you want from the event? Yeah. The there’s [00:12:20] the education on the screen. Mhm. But you know, you went through Covid, we [00:12:25] can get a lot of that online. Sure. Then there’s the sort of people [00:12:30] you meet. Yeah. There’s the people you meet and the enjoyment on the day. But [00:12:35] really a key thing is, can I call you later on.

Shyun Patel: And [00:12:40] build a relationship.

Payman Langroudi: Build a relationship. If I’ve got an issue, can I call you? Yeah. And you know, right now, me and [00:12:45] you can call each other, of course, because we we’ve been to ten events together. [00:12:50] Whether that event was a party, an enlightened party, or whether it was PDSA [00:12:55] where I.

Shyun Patel: Of.

Payman Langroudi: Course, you know, we see each other enough times and you get to a point of trust and, [00:13:00] hey, give me your number and all that. But I, whoever I meet, I give my number [00:13:05] to like whoever.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, including at a conference, a first year dental student. [00:13:10] I give my number to everyone.

Shyun Patel: How do you find that? So when I see you, it’s such a pivotal [00:13:15] figure in the industry. Well, I do, you know, and, uh, [00:13:20] as well as are friends now, thankfully to say. And one thing about [00:13:25] I found following PDSA is that I’ve got this, this platform and you’ve got this platform and [00:13:30] you go from maybe not yourself, but I thought I went from being a nobody to, you know, I’ve got dentists saying, [00:13:35] you’re the most popular dental student in Europe now. Everyone knows you had dental school. And I’m like, I’m just I [00:13:40] go home and make Lego sets. You know, I’m not nothing extraordinary about me. How do [00:13:45] you balance, you know, public perception of you? So one question I like to [00:13:50] ask people and I’ll ask you now is, what do you think’s people’s biggest misconception about you? [00:13:55] You know, you interact with so many different people.

Payman Langroudi: When you say [00:14:00] people, you know, like if we’re talking work, um, people [00:14:05] first of all think if you stopped practising dentistry, it must be because you’re a billionaire. [00:14:10]

Shyun Patel: Right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And I stopped practising dentistry 16 [00:14:15] years ago or something. Like several times I stopped, actually. We stopped. I stopped [00:14:20] for five years as soon as we started enlightened. And in that period, I [00:14:25] was losing hundreds of thousands of pounds. Like hundreds of thousands. Yeah. The first 5 [00:14:30] or 6 years we, I think we lost a good half a million back then, which was a lot of money back [00:14:35] then, you know. Yeah.

Shyun Patel: Well even now, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. But back there was a lot of money and I used [00:14:40] to have friends and people meet me and say, oh, you don’t practice anymore. And I say, no. And they think you’ve [00:14:45] made it so successful.

Shyun Patel: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Not to practice. Yeah. That’s one misconception. [00:14:50] Yeah.

Shyun Patel: Was that stopping practice from shifting focus or did you. [00:14:55]

Payman Langroudi: In the first five years there was no choice. I mean, there was so much going on. I just I just had to I had [00:15:00] partners, so they continued to practice and they were basically funding me. Yeah. In that period. Um, [00:15:05] but then I went back and I started doing one day a week, two days a week, that [00:15:10] sort of thing. And then I had a bad day one day and I said, forget it, you know? Yeah. I spoke to Prav. Yes. [00:15:15] My co-host and I said he used to be a doctor. Okay. [00:15:20] He studied in Oxford, and he became, like, top of his class and [00:15:25] then did research and then never practised as a doctor. Okay. Because [00:15:30] his brother Kailash has, um. Dental.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. He’s down around the corner [00:15:35] from me in Manchester, isn’t he?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And Caitlin Prav is a very clever guy. So Kayla said to him, look, [00:15:40] you’re a clever guy. Just find out about marketing. And so he read up a bit, found out about Google, [00:15:45] all that. And his practice went berserk. And and then perhaps I thought, I’m going to start doing this [00:15:50] instead of being a doctor. Yeah. And he’s got this very interesting story where he talks to his tutor in Oxford [00:15:55] and said to him, look, I’m thinking of going into marketing instead of [00:16:00] becoming a doctor. And the guy told him, um, definitely do it. [00:16:05] Really? Yeah.

Shyun Patel: Oh, nice. Yeah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Um, he sort of said to [00:16:10] him, look, if you if you if you want my advice, go. Yeah.

Shyun Patel: I think that about [00:16:15] life. You know, honestly, sometimes you don’t have it all figured out. And one thing that ethos I take is that I remember [00:16:20] Mark Zuckerberg said if he knew everything about Facebook before he made Facebook, then Facebook wouldn’t exist. And somebody’s [00:16:25] got to jump and figure it out on the way.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, Jensen from Nvidia says the same thing.

Shyun Patel: Did he [00:16:30] say same thing? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which is crazy, right? Because you think that’s the world’s most successful company. Sure. And [00:16:35] he said, if you knew the pain, he would never. And there’s massive pain.

Shyun Patel: Oh, of course. [00:16:40]

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got, you know, you’ve you’ve just done PDSA, right. And you can see there’s a thousand [00:16:45] moving parts.

Shyun Patel: 100%.

Payman Langroudi: And um you don’t, the profit isn’t even [00:16:50] a big part.

Shyun Patel: No.

Payman Langroudi: Of what you’re doing.

Shyun Patel: No.

Payman Langroudi: But what I’m saying to you about the first five years of enlightenment. [00:16:55] I was putting out fires left, right and centre and losing money at the same [00:17:00] time.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s painful.

Shyun Patel: It is painful.

Payman Langroudi: It’s painful. Especially as a dentist. [00:17:05] Right? Because all your friends are now buying practice.

Shyun Patel: And they’ve got a nice shiny.

Payman Langroudi: Shiny [00:17:10] car. It’s hard and it’s not like I’m I was doing it, sticking at it. [00:17:15] I had no choice. Yeah. All our houses were on the line. Yeah. It’s hard. Um, [00:17:20] but the other thing that people get wrong, especially younger dentists. Yeah. They think [00:17:25] there’s this sort of like, master plan kind of thing and it’s not. No, [00:17:30] it’s exactly. My head feels exactly the same as when I was your age.

Shyun Patel: Do you know [00:17:35] what someone asked me right after the conference? They go, how do you feel? And I feel exactly the [00:17:40] same. And it’s almost the the weird thing. And I don’t know if you’ve ever felt this. It’s almost a selfish thing [00:17:45] to say. It’s almost a selfish thing to say. Um, but [00:17:50] I think there’s a time where you feel a bit unprepared and you’re not sure of something. And like you said, we’ve both jumped in [00:17:55] different retrospects and over a prolonged period of time, there’s a point where you can kind of sit and [00:18:00] it’s not like in front of anyone. You’re by yourself and you look in the mirror and you go, you know what? I was, [00:18:05] I was right. It’s that that weird feeling of like, I was right to stick with this thing that I wasn’t sure. And [00:18:10] I, I’m a very big fan of like mental frameworks to get me through times [00:18:15] because I think motivation dies and dedication at times of good days and bad days. But [00:18:20] if you kind of set your brain in a certain way. I remember reading, uh, James Clear [00:18:25] Atomic Habits and he mentioned something about an ice cube. You familiar with this, this concept to [00:18:30] me so.

Payman Langroudi: So I’ve read it.

Shyun Patel: So remember he he gets an ice cube. And, um, let’s [00:18:35] say an ice cube is at minus ten degrees and you heat it up and it gets to minus eight, minus seven, minus six. There’s [00:18:40] no change. And you’re keeping up four, three, two, no change. And then hit zero. And all of a sudden starts melting. [00:18:45] Now does that mean that from heating from -10 to -5 that that wasn’t beneficial. [00:18:50] And sometimes I feel like in a society where there’s social media and even [00:18:55] go to the gym, there’s some sort of fast returns. You know, they say the two best time scales [00:19:00] to, to work on are within the hour and ten years, you know, which is quite juxtaposed. [00:19:05] But what am I gonna do in the next hour? And it comes back [00:19:10] to, um, another part. Have you heard of this? Um, I’ll try and summarise [00:19:15] it. The parable of the there’s all these different Chinese farmer. Have you heard this one before? It’s not, not [00:19:20] my coin. So I’m not going to take credit for it. But they talk about this, this farmer in China and [00:19:25] he’s running this farm and um, He’s got one horse [00:19:30] on the farm and his child is there and he’s feeding the horse. And one day the horse [00:19:35] runs away and the child runs to the Chinese farmer and he goes, dad, the horse ran away. This is really bad. [00:19:40] And he goes, well, maybe. And so the sons confused and [00:19:45] wakes up the next day and he’s doing the crops himself now.

Shyun Patel: And the horse comes back over the hill bringing ten [00:19:50] wild horses. And the son runs to the father and goes, this is amazing. Like there’s these, all these new horses. We [00:19:55] can go into the horse business and the Chinese farmer goes, well, well, maybe. Okay. So then [00:20:00] the sons then goes the next day and he’s training the horses, the wild horses, and one of them bucks and kicks him and he breaks his arm. And [00:20:05] all the people of the village go to the farm and go, this is awful news. Your sons broke his arm. And he goes, well, maybe [00:20:10] in the next day the conscription officer comes and goes, we’re going to war. And you take your son and he goes, well, my son’s arm [00:20:15] is broken. He can’t go to war. And so he doesn’t go to war. And then everyone goes, it’s amazing. He goes, well, maybe. And the point of the story is that [00:20:20] you never really know if something’s good or bad for you in the moment and something maybe, [00:20:25] you know, maybe you shouldn’t say this in case my parents are watching this, but cocaine on a two hour span [00:20:30] is not actually necessarily bad for you. But then if you take that to maybe three, four, five hours, ten hours [00:20:35] a week, these things that are things are only good and bad on a, on a certain time frame. And I feel like with, I [00:20:40] think.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right, you’re right, insomuch as a lot of us fall into the trap of thinking, is this thing good or [00:20:45] is it bad? And rather than what you’re saying, it’s good and bad. [00:20:50] Sure. Depending on what happens. And definitely, I think people’s biggest strength [00:20:55] is their biggest weakness. Mhm. Whichever wherever the strength is, you know, if you say, [00:21:00] oh, his strength is attention to detail, great.

Shyun Patel: But then they should see how [00:21:05] quickly you’re getting stuff. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Like they become like massive over perfectionists. [00:21:10] Or you could say he’s the kindest person I’ve met. Great. Yeah. But [00:21:15] then he can’t fire anyone.

Shyun Patel: They say it’s hubris in Greek. Greek mythology, where the character’s [00:21:20] fatal flaw is his own strength. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And often, [00:21:25] you know, what you’re saying is you start becoming known. It’s weird because people [00:21:30] have sort of expectation and all that. And the hubris that you can get from [00:21:35] that can really ruin your life. Sure. Because you the thing [00:21:40] that makes for me the biggest sense is that if someone likes this podcast, yeah, [00:21:45] they like this podcast because I’m just being me. Sure. Yeah. Now, if 100,000 [00:21:50] people like this podcast, it’s being me. That was the point [00:21:55] of it. If I’m now change through hubris, become this other person [00:22:00] that ain’t what they were into. They were into me.

Shyun Patel: It’s not. They don’t benefit [00:22:05] from it. But also you go home thinking they like a version of me that doesn’t really exist. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:22:10] you know, you’ve heard this thing that they say, don’t over dwell on your failures, but [00:22:15] don’t over celebrate on your successes because both of them are sort of temporary [00:22:20] things.

Shyun Patel: They say when you’re, when you’re at the top, when you’re successful, when you do something well, [00:22:25] they go, you’re not actually that good. And when you’re when you feel like you’re the worst in the world, you’re not actually that bad. Yeah, yeah. [00:22:30]

Payman Langroudi: It’s very true. It’s very.

Shyun Patel: True. And that’s why I think it’s important to have a why. Anything you do, [00:22:35] you need to have some sort of why for us.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me this though, dude. Like [00:22:40] you’re obviously obsessed with self-improvement. Sure. Um, were [00:22:45] you that five year old? Like when when what was the inflection point when you [00:22:50] became this person?

Shyun Patel: Okay, let’s let’s go back. So, [00:22:55] uh, I’m very privileged. I had a very good upbringing. Um, but my mum and dad both [00:23:00] came from a lot of poverty and built themselves up to do, to do quite well.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:23:05] did they.

Shyun Patel: Do? So my my dad’s actually a dentist. Oh, really? And my mum did business and then worked [00:23:10] my dad and they have a practice now and they’re slowly thinking about winding down now. [00:23:15] Both my parents had hardship, but in very different ways. So my, [00:23:20] my mum’s parents owned a corner shop. Typical Patel and, um, but [00:23:25] her parents worked 364 days a year, and so often she [00:23:30] would be left at home with no food, and she’d have to eat chocolate from the cupboard and left very [00:23:35] independently. And hopefully my mum doesn’t mind me saying this, but there was one point where I think my [00:23:40] mum was asked, uh, she graduated and it was hard for, for girls back in that [00:23:45] age. And um, my nan didn’t really understand graduating. She goes, do I have to come to graduation? She was very [00:23:50] neglected. Whereas my dad had very, very, very strict parents, typical [00:23:55] Indian parents were.

Payman Langroudi: Were they both here as kids?

Shyun Patel: They were both here as kids. Yeah. Um, [00:24:00] in the West Midlands. And my, my dad wanted to go play and he couldn’t go play [00:24:05] because he had to do work. Anyway, fast forward. So that kind of amalgamation of the two polars [00:24:10] of having poverty, but in a very strict way where [00:24:15] you’re thankful in the long term, but it’s very difficult and free, they say, is it freedom or loneliness? You know, that’s [00:24:20] another thing people. And it kind of created me where I felt growing up there wasn’t. [00:24:25] My parents were very not like typical. There wasn’t a lot of pressure on me, but [00:24:30] they would talk about other kids in such a positive way that it kind of created insecurity in me. So I’ll give you an example. [00:24:35] In primary school, there may be a kid that was really clean around the house, and then [00:24:40] I’d be compared to this child and I’d be like, I’ve got to be really clean. Then a completely different kid who’s really good at sport, really [00:24:45] good at sport. And I know it’s really clever. Then I’d be really. So I’m competing against these five kids, you know, [00:24:50] I’m just this one trying to fight all these, these these battles off. And then what happened is [00:24:55] my parents never really. And they do now. But I think it just comes with like, the Asian mentality never gave me [00:25:00] that validation. So that kind of built on insecurity in me. So then growing [00:25:05] up, um. I paused that thought and come [00:25:10] back to it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shyun Patel: About three years ago, I read something that really gave me kind of fulfilment [00:25:15] and kind of gave me some reassurance was they did a survey called the Great Survey, [00:25:20] where they interviewed people that regard as great. Could be Cristiano Ronaldo, Roger Federer, [00:25:25] scientists, philanthropists, just people that were regarded great in their in their career. Yeah. And they [00:25:30] asked them, what is it that makes you great? Yeah. And like an overwhelming like 70, 80% of people [00:25:35] said, I don’t strive to be great, but I’m running away from a sense of inadequacy. And I resonate [00:25:40] with that a little bit, that that feeling of not feeling good enough drove me to want to do [00:25:45] things. When I have that little voice that goes, shine, you’re not smart. I will need to create fundamental evidence, [00:25:50] so I’ll have to. I got five offers for a hard course, so I can’t be that that stupid or you’re not [00:25:55] creative, so but but shine. You play three instruments and I’m in a band, so I can’t be that not creative [00:26:00] or, you know, you’re not that charitable then I’ve worked with this, so I’ll have to create fundamental evidence for [00:26:05] myself to battle this insecurity.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:26:10] then you’re saying your parents set up this insecurity by mistake?

Shyun Patel: I think so. It’s weird. [00:26:15] Right? So it’s weird because everyone’s very quick to [00:26:20] thank their parents and I’m very grateful. My parents had a very privileged upbringing, but also everyone [00:26:25] has their upbringing is what makes you who you are in some sense, your environment. And everyone asks, [00:26:30] I wish my parents did this, this and this, but then I wouldn’t be who I was if it wasn’t for those [00:26:35] sets of events. Yeah. Um, you.

Payman Langroudi: Haven’t got any kids, have you?

Shyun Patel: No. Not [00:26:40] yet.

Payman Langroudi: Good.

Shyun Patel: No time soon. How do you find it? From being.

Payman Langroudi: The thing? The thing with kids. And it’s very [00:26:45] similar with employees as well. Yeah. It’s that. Let’s look at employees for for a second. [00:26:50] Okay. I’ve got a sales team. Yeah. The sales team are incentivised on [00:26:55] sales. Mhm. Yeah. You think that sounds like a great idea, right? Yeah. They need to get [00:27:00] sales and they’re incentivised on sales. Yeah. But what ends up happening there is you get an unintended [00:27:05] consequence of everything you put in place with [00:27:10] employees. Yeah. So on that on that simple example of if if I incentivise my team [00:27:15] on sales. What ends up happening is they go for the big sales because [00:27:20] that increases their numbers. Yeah, yeah. That’s good. Right. We [00:27:25] want big sales. But most people come to enlighten, you know looking [00:27:30] to try it once. Yeah, yeah. That’s that guy who’s just about to spend £18,000 [00:27:35] on a elite partner status with enlightened was [00:27:40] one day that guy who came in trying.

Shyun Patel: The foundation of your whole.

Payman Langroudi: Trying it once. Yeah, right. [00:27:45] And then he went up the escalator. Then they said, oh, if you buy six, you don’t have to pay shipping. Oh, okay. [00:27:50] You buy 12. Now we’re looking for one partner in each town who’s our elite partner. But he went [00:27:55] through that. Mhm. Now, if you incentivise only on sales that side of the funnel [00:28:00] where people are coming in gets ignored because this guy’s buying 1 or 3 [00:28:05] or something. Yeah, they’re not very focussed on him. Yeah. So. Oh I know, [00:28:10] I know what’s the answer to that. Incentivise new customers While you’re at it. [00:28:15] All right. Now we incentivise new customers.

Shyun Patel: A shift.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a shift there. There’s another unintended [00:28:20] consequence that comes out of that incentivise growth. Yeah. It puts [00:28:25] massive stress on the team, massive stress because it then incentivise annually [00:28:30] or by month or by quarter. Yeah, you do it by quarter. You get this thing called [00:28:35] quarter switching. Yeah. Where they take the foot off the pedal for the first quarter. Or [00:28:40] let’s say they go berserk selling like hell in the first quarter, the second quarter. No one needs anything because they’ve [00:28:45] sold so hard. They take their foot off the pedal there. Then the following quarter, they push again, and [00:28:50] then in the following year, switch it around because that second quarter was very slow. So now they can [00:28:55] build on it, you know, and it’s not their fault. You set up the system.

Shyun Patel: And there’s flaws. Like [00:29:00] I think it’s what we said about the hubris of a business. Yeah, we could almost shift it to that.

Payman Langroudi: But then, but then [00:29:05] parenting same story, man.

Shyun Patel: 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Like your parents, when they were pointing out that kid [00:29:10] who’s good at football. Yeah. Or good at studying or good at that. They were trying to get you to be good at [00:29:15] those things, for sure. But the unintended consequence of that, this feeling of not being enough.

Shyun Patel: Yes. [00:29:20]

Payman Langroudi: Well done. Yeah. You take that feeling. Some people crush under that feeling. Yeah. [00:29:25] You take that feeling and use it as fuel. Yeah. But my question is, [00:29:30] when did you become so tactical? Because it’s very early on. Yeah, I did, I, when I, [00:29:35] yeah, I went to PhD. Yeah. And I started reading self-development books. Yeah. [00:29:40] But you’re really early on this journey. Like when, when was it, how was it? So was it, was [00:29:45] it one book in particular? Was it one?

Shyun Patel: Was it one book? It was, it was.

Payman Langroudi: It was success itself. [00:29:50]

Shyun Patel: And unintended conversations. So what I mean by that. Fast forward to secondary [00:29:55] school. Yeah. Because I wanted to then be good at a lot of things. I wanted [00:30:00] to be good at a lot of different things. And they say the course of a, a person that’s a jack of all trades, jack [00:30:05] of all trades, never gets anywhere. Jack of all trades. Yeah. I liked music and I liked science [00:30:10] and I liked Like sport, and I liked all these different things. So I’ll talk to the the guys that were good at gym. [00:30:15] I talked to the guys that were, you know, starting businesses and the guys that were good. And I’d pick up different [00:30:20] things. And over time from just doing this out of pure interest of like wanting to better myself, I thought, do [00:30:25] conversations. Sometimes a new person would come into a group and no one would know what to say to them. But I [00:30:30] had some little link to them from another conversation and it started becoming beneficial to me. [00:30:35] So I thought, I enjoy talking to people, I enjoy learning about people, but actually the knowledge I gain [00:30:40] from even this conversation will actually benefit me in some way.

Shyun Patel: And then I thought, how can I [00:30:45] like with anything, get the reps in master skill? And we talk about reflection [00:30:50] a lot in dentistry. I think it was after every conversation, [00:30:55] it almost a subconscious way and it is a double edged sword. You do tend to [00:31:00] analyse the situation and think, could I have said this more? Could I ask more? How could I have made. I think it [00:31:05] comes down to how could I have made this experience better for the other person? And that allows me to reflect on myself. [00:31:10] And then I thought, well, there must be Will Smith [00:31:15] said. The two the two most important things in life are running and reading, running because you fight the little voice in your head [00:31:20] and reading because you’ll never face a problem in life that someone else in history hasn’t come [00:31:25] across, or in a book about it. So I started reading and sharpening the tools, and now I [00:31:30] feel like relatively comfortable talking to people or anyone.

Payman Langroudi: Is there a is there a [00:31:35] book that really resonated for you? More than the others?

Shyun Patel: I’d [00:31:40] probably say Atomic Habits was pretty good for me. Yeah, I’d say one of [00:31:45] the first ones is pretty stable for a lot of people, but just helped me streamline [00:31:50] my thoughts because sometimes I can go on tangents but [00:31:55] helps me keep things quite narrow.

Payman Langroudi: And what’s interesting is, you know, like whatever [00:32:00] frame of mind you were in at that moment might have made that the case. You [00:32:05] know, like you could read it again now and get different things out of it. Yeah, yeah. Maybe the moment [00:32:10] that you read it was the moment.

Shyun Patel: Sure. I think that about people in general. I [00:32:15] said to, um, my my, uh, close friend of mine went [00:32:20] for the Dental society presidency. They didn’t get it. I didn’t get it when I went for it. We can talk about that later. [00:32:25] And I didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Get.

Shyun Patel: It. No, I go into that story actually. So I [00:32:30] wanted to make an impact on people. And, you [00:32:35] know, we were talking about events just before the podcast started. And sometimes you see these guys at events, you won’t name names [00:32:40] that they’re in a nice suit and tie. They’re on stage, look super polished. And I thought, I’m not, I’m not [00:32:45] that person. I’d never be that person. And, uh, you can, of course, a bit of disparities in [00:32:50] like, there are those kinds of people and there are these kinds of people. And I always felt I’m these kinds of people. I’m never going to be like that and [00:32:55] I’m going to go for dental society president. I put Liverpool on the map [00:33:00] and I’ve got these contacts, and I thought I could do good for the society, worked the whole year, did a bunch of campaigning [00:33:05] and stuff, and I went for it and I didn’t get it.

Payman Langroudi: It crushed.

Shyun Patel: You. Yeah. [00:33:10] You. Yeah. Crushed me. I didn’t leave my room for two days, actually. Uh, yeah. [00:33:15] Just didn’t take it well.

Payman Langroudi: So interesting, dude. Yeah. Because it was some guy sitting in the back of the room who [00:33:20] didn’t even get to the point of asking to be president. Sure. [00:33:25] Like me, by the way. Yeah, yeah, I didn’t get involved one little iota in dental school. Yeah. And [00:33:30] you. And by the way, I’ve got a friend. His dad, unfortunately, took his own life. [00:33:35] Why? Because he didn’t win the Nobel Prize.

Shyun Patel: No way.

Payman Langroudi: That [00:33:40] was his goal. And, like, by the way, it’s not like as as as as [00:33:45] obvious as that.

Shyun Patel: Maybe, but. Sure, but.

Payman Langroudi: Trying.

Shyun Patel: To.

Payman Langroudi: Win the Nobel Prize broke [00:33:50] him mentally. And then he didn’t win it, so he had nothing left, whatever [00:33:55] it was, of course, whatever combination of things it was, his mother told him, you’ll never amount to anything, [00:34:00] for all I know. Yeah, yeah, but but it’s so interesting, isn’t it? Like for him, it was a [00:34:05] Nobel Prize for you. I didn’t even think anyone would ever want me as president of anything, so [00:34:10] I never even put my hand up. Yeah. So, like, how far you were ahead of me, but. And yet crushed. [00:34:15]

Shyun Patel: Yeah. Crushed. And it came to me very recently that it’s not, you know, people talk about like, you know, [00:34:20] the financial aspect of dentistry or these achievements and goals and accolades. Now it’s just my younger brother who told [00:34:25] me this, um, call it an arbitrary hypothetical situation, having [00:34:30] £1 million in the bank. Sure. Fine. And he said to me, it’s not about having $1 [00:34:35] million. It’s about who you have to become to be worth $1 million.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a nice.

Shyun Patel: Nose. I like that, and [00:34:40] I thought, you know what? I don’t I don’t see, uh, Payman and think, oh, [00:34:45] he’s got all this stuff. I think, what must that guy have gone through? Who must he have [00:34:50] had to become to be a person that can do all these things mentally? And so for me, that’s. [00:34:55]

Payman Langroudi: The really interesting thing is if I push a button, £1 million drops your account, not a single thing changes. [00:35:00]

Shyun Patel: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: To the in the moment, like nothing changes. Yeah, yeah. [00:35:05] Nothing.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not any different at all.

Shyun Patel: It’s not the destination. Right. It’s the.

Payman Langroudi: The company. [00:35:10] That’s what a brilliant speech that was. Um, but [00:35:15] you know, like, by the way, let’s call it £1 billion. Yeah. Like proper life changing. [00:35:20] Yeah. Amounts of money still right now we’re still.

Shyun Patel: We’re.

Payman Langroudi: Still, we’re sitting here talking. Yeah. [00:35:25] You’re still worried about your grandmother’s illness? Yeah. Now. [00:35:30] Okay. What can you do with that? Money can buy things, which is like, really? There’s [00:35:35] nothing. No, there is not a thing I’ve ever bought that’s made me happy. Fulfilled longer [00:35:40] than. Longer than about a week.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Nothing. Yeah, I don’t know, maybe someone [00:35:45] else has, like, had this life ambition to get a Rolex or whatever, and that was, you [00:35:50] know, important to them. Now they got it. But the thing itself, there wasn’t a goddamn thing.

Shyun Patel: It’s [00:35:55] who you become in the, in the, in the you, you can.

Payman Langroudi: Buy experiences. Yeah. That’s good. [00:36:00] That’s good. Yeah. I’ll go off to Burning Man and then travel [00:36:05] the world and go on every private jet or boat or whatever [00:36:10] turns you on, you know, like the opposite of that. Yeah. You know, sit on a top [00:36:15] of a train in Pakistan, if you will.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Experiences are cool. Experiences are [00:36:20] cool, of course. But in the end, as like a dentist guy. Yeah. What are [00:36:25] you gonna do? You got, like, I don’t know, four weeks off.

Shyun Patel: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: You could go on some five star hotels. [00:36:30]

Shyun Patel: It just ends. And you’ve got to have purpose.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Shyun Patel: Purpose. Do you do you feel like you [00:36:35] ask yourself those those some people shy away from it. They think I don’t need to think about. I’m just going to take [00:36:40] day by day. But do you ever think about your purpose and what drives you and keeps you going? [00:36:45]

Payman Langroudi: It happens to you is what I found. So some people may maybe, maybe you can sit on an [00:36:50] Anthony Robbins seminar and write it down and then go and make it happen. But [00:36:55] it happens to you, this podcast itself, this podcast. Yeah, it started off as a business [00:37:00] decision. We need to improve our, you know, reach on social media. [00:37:05] Um, so how should we do that? How much can we talk about toothpaste and teeth whitening? [00:37:10] Let’s talk about dentistry and people. Yeah, it started off that way. Yeah. But [00:37:15] now it’s a whole other thing. It’s it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s closer to a hobby than [00:37:20] to a business decision.

Shyun Patel: Passion project.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And what is a hobby? You know, something you [00:37:25] enjoy for sure. Something you try and get better at. You know, something where there’s a community of [00:37:30] you or whatever. Yeah, it’s much closer to that 100%. And then if I have to look back on it [00:37:35] and say, oh, what are you most proud of? What are you most proud of? That tube of toothpaste, [00:37:40] by the way? I really am. You know, like, of course, it took a long time to get that right. Or [00:37:45] these conversations, I say these conversations. Yeah. Because these are real, [00:37:50] right? And, uh, I bang on about this. Three of my guests are no longer with us. Mhm. [00:37:55] Yeah. And one day, you’re no longer going to be with us, of course. And this conversation is still [00:38:00] going to be there.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. Well, that’s the thing.

Payman Langroudi: When you say.

Shyun Patel: Purpose, they say, um, I, I, it’s [00:38:05] actually quite sad. I said at my grandfather’s funeral, I said, um, [00:38:10] nobody lasts forever, but you can create something that will. And whether that be a message, [00:38:15] something, something in someone. And so I think we should strive to [00:38:20] for positivity, strive to leave a positive impact on people because that’s, that’s really what [00:38:25] matters.

Payman Langroudi: I find interesting though. Yeah, there are some people who aren’t paying [00:38:30] attention to what’s going on. Yeah, they’re too busy in their [00:38:35] own world. Then there are other people who are paying attention, um, [00:38:40] but aren’t doing anything about it. So [00:38:45] I’m like that in our politics. I’m paying a lot of attention in politics. Yeah, [00:38:50] I, but I didn’t even vote for. I voted once in my life.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:38:55] Um, but then there are some people who know what’s going on and want [00:39:00] to act on it, want to do things. Yeah. And you look at your year [00:39:05] in Liverpool, you see all three of those types, most definitely.

Shyun Patel: Well in dentistry and in [00:39:10] my year in life. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course I’m interested in the transition. Yeah. Or [00:39:15] do you believe that it is some people are just like that from the beginning because there [00:39:20] is I’ve been all three of those people.

Shyun Patel: I think I have as well for sure. I think [00:39:25] even so, perspective that you may or may not get is, um, you [00:39:30] speak to young people, young events, and it’s easy for someone like you or, you know, I [00:39:35] always say to my good friend Joe Lovett, he always says to me, oh, your generation is killing it. I wasn’t like this. I was doing this. But [00:39:40] even those young people that you meet that are doing said things have gone through that [00:39:45] journey. Well, some of them, maybe not all of them, but they have gone through that journey. Um. I [00:39:50] think it comes from an experience, a conversation [00:39:55] where you think about why am I doing what I’m doing? And [00:40:00] maybe the thought that no one’s. Maybe it’s the thought for me that no one’s gonna save you. I think [00:40:05] my mum said to me once, it’s self-reliance. Yeah. No one’s gonna, you know, bad things [00:40:10] happen to everybody. And at the end of the day, if something happens. [00:40:15] Yeah, you’ve got your family and friends, but you’ve really got, you’ve really got yourself to pull [00:40:20] yourself out of holes. And whether it be in business, whether it be in life, whether it be friends, uh, it’s [00:40:25] equipping yourself that, you know, maybe [00:40:30] not on every case, but I found that certain experiences in my life have got certain [00:40:35] things have got easier as I’ve got older and I’ve realised that the they’ve not got easier [00:40:40] because the dragon is any smaller.

Shyun Patel: I’ve just got stronger. When [00:40:45] you slay that dragon because you’ve got used to failure, you’ve got used to rejection. So [00:40:50] I think it’s different for different people. Um, for me, I can’t think. Pinpoint it to one moment. [00:40:55] Well, actually no, no. Okay. Now I think about it a little bit [00:41:00] more. There was a little bit of a pivotal thing that happened in my life that kind of shaped me. [00:41:05] I’d say probably, maybe I haven’t consciously thought about it until this moment, which is why I didn’t [00:41:10] go in with it. So, you know, I’d be a little bit vulnerable [00:41:15] here, but when I was, um, and a lot of my friends know about this, but when I was 19, [00:41:20] I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease. And. I [00:41:25] self self-identity is a big thing. You know, you’re, you’re, you’re [00:41:30] a young guy, you’re a dentist, your student sports, whatever you want to identify as and identifying [00:41:35] as an ill person, but not an ill person that you can’t get rid of your illness is quite [00:41:40] a was quite a weird experience for me.

Payman Langroudi: So people mourn it. [00:41:45] People mourn.

Shyun Patel: People mourn it. Right. And I didn’t want to identify something where [00:41:50] you almost become the thing you think about. So yeah, I say to people, um, [00:41:55] after how many times of playing the piano to become a pianist, right? [00:42:00] If you wake up one day, go, I’m a pianist or you go, I’m a pianist. What would a pianist do today? They play piano. Then you, [00:42:05] you know, kind of self-fulfilling become the thing that you want to be. So I [00:42:10] had this illness and, you know, so without going into too much detail, I have [00:42:15] to go to hospital every six weeks for an infusion for the rest of my life. Right? [00:42:20] Which is, you know, one day you wake up and the next day and I think they say [00:42:25] you have 100 problems, you have a health problem, then you have one problem. Yeah. And I [00:42:30] think for me, it was like, okay, this is something that affects me. You know, I get extreme fatigue sometimes [00:42:35] and, you know, all these other issues [00:42:40] and struggles that come with it. But I never really wanted to let that stop me. [00:42:45] And it kind of made me put life into perspective.

Shyun Patel: And I think you asked me about where did this kind [00:42:50] of drive? You know, when you say the word drive in the word, it’s like you’re accelerating. You know, you’re going [00:42:55] somewhere. Yeah. Through the reflection of my own health. And, you know, there’s periods of time where I [00:43:00] think the end of my second, my biggest achievement, despite everything. And we can talk about more things in PDSA. The biggest achievement [00:43:05] of my life was in second year. It was my second year dental exams [00:43:10] and I was extremely ill in that period. Did my second [00:43:15] year exams and I finished my exam at maybe 3:00 [00:43:20] in the afternoon. I’d get home and I’d be so tired [00:43:25] that sometimes I’d get home in my jacket, lie on my bed kind of sideways, and I’d be stuck there [00:43:30] till the next morning because I’d be so I couldn’t even move. Right. And after my last exam, my [00:43:35] mum came and picked me up. I was really ill. Took me to A&E and I was in hospital for two and a half weeks. [00:43:40]

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Shyun Patel: But I still passed all my exams. I made it my mission to turn up for exams on the same day.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:43:45] this same problem.

Shyun Patel: The same, the same, the same, the same thing. Right. And, um, it’s, [00:43:50] uh. Yeah, it’s more just for me that, um. [00:43:55]

Payman Langroudi: So you feel like when that, when you got that [00:44:00] diagnosis, you feel like now I’m gonna try and make things count.

Shyun Patel: It’s more like my [00:44:05] parents. Your parents, everyone’s parents are only getting older. My grandparents are getting [00:44:10] older. Yeah. Everyone says life’s short. Yeah. Everyone goes, you know, um, it will [00:44:15] come, right? It will come to you. You get, you know, and some things do come to you. But people look at their lives. [00:44:20] You just woke up and got into dental school or you have to work for you have to kind of make a conscious. You woke up and made a podcast and you made this toothpaste. [00:44:25] No, you you sat and you thought and you made it happen. So with anything in your life, you know, you [00:44:30] could wake up, I could wake up at 30 or 40 and, um, you know, but I, [00:44:35] my, my life now, I think is, is fine. Like I’m not like a ill in that sense, but [00:44:40] it put in perspective the value of life. And I remember every [00:44:45] day I’d go to the sit outside for an hour and look at the car park and go, you know, this weird car park is now [00:44:50] my freedom. I never looked the car parks the same way. And so I thought, you know, I don’t know what’s going to happen tomorrow [00:44:55] or in three years time. I’m gonna act now. I’m gonna do it now. I’m not just gonna get in good [00:45:00] shape. I’m not going to go and live this fulfilling life. I’ve got to make it happen. So I just that day, I thought, yeah, I’m [00:45:05] gonna go and make it happen and then made it happen.

Payman Langroudi: I love.

Shyun Patel: That. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I love that. One of the [00:45:10] important things is dealing with life’s issues is gratitude. [00:45:15] Gratitude for what you do have. Sure. The other thing is with with, with things like [00:45:20] illness, often it’s a thing where if you meet other people or [00:45:25] hear of other people who’ve who’ve got it or had it or lived with it, [00:45:30] somehow it’s something about that makes it like, okay, it’s [00:45:35] not just me, you know.

Shyun Patel: This is the reason I, I can tell you now, I’ve told [00:45:40] about six people and I’m putting on a podcast. And I, funnily enough, So [00:45:45] I called my mum before I was walking in. I said, I’m going, I’m going on this podcast. And I said, should I, should I mention this? [00:45:50] Is this something, you know? And she goes, how do you feel about it? And I go, uh, I [00:45:55] was embarrassed about it or scared about it, or you shy away from these things and you realise, you know what, like I said, [00:46:00] in the kitchen, I feel like I’m at a point now where I’ve done Bdsm, I’ve [00:46:05] got this platform and I feel somewhat of a responsibility that through [00:46:10] the grace of my life and whatever there is in the universe, I have this [00:46:15] ability to I’ve built confidence over time, you know, from whatever means that’s come from. [00:46:20] And someone else may be suffering with the same thing, someone listening, a dentist, a student somewhere. [00:46:25] I think, well, if this average kid that’s ill can do this, then maybe [00:46:30] I can do do it too. And I feel.

Payman Langroudi: There’s huge value in that, dude. Huge [00:46:35] value. I had someone we ask a question. I mean, I don’t know if you’ve listened to this pod before, but [00:46:40] we ask a question about mistakes. Okay. And this. This dentist had made a mistake [00:46:45] that she was ashamed of.

Shyun Patel: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: And at the beginning told [00:46:50] me, look, I don’t want to discuss it. Mhm. And then I said, well, what is it? And then [00:46:55] it was such an important thing. Yeah. Why do [00:47:00] I ask about mistakes? Not to take my guests through pain? Right. No. It’s so that we all learn [00:47:05] from our mistakes.

Shyun Patel: For.

Payman Langroudi: Sure. Yeah. It was such an important thing. And I said. I said, look, of course [00:47:10] it’s up to you. It’s your podcast. You can take it out if you want. Yeah. But [00:47:15] it’s the most valuable thing that happened in this podcast. It was the most valuable thing [00:47:20] that was said in, in that whole podcast. And maybe in the last 30 podcasts [00:47:25] that I’ve done. So that was the most valuable thing. So yeah, you owe it to yourself. [00:47:30] The rest of us.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. The rest of us to talk about it. How have it embarrassed you are about [00:47:35] that mistake. Yeah. Mhm. Um. And we’ll see. We’ll see. [00:47:40] Well, of course, of course. It’s not my decision, right? It’s that person’s decision. Yeah. Um, [00:47:45] but we’ll we’ll see how that ends up in the same way. Of course, it’s your [00:47:50] right to keep any or all of this, any and all of this confidential for sure. But [00:47:55] there’s people listening who’s going through this and need.

Shyun Patel: I think so I think there’s a point where you look at [00:48:00] yourself and you think, why was I put on this planet? You know, I am a bit of a [00:48:05] sucker. I’m a bit of a hopeless romantic. I, I, I, I don’t know if that’s the [00:48:10] right word to put it. I, I you’re a girlfriend. I don’t actually, I was, I, um, I’m [00:48:15] actually building a dating app.

Payman Langroudi: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. You said you said, okay, let’s talk about that. Yeah. How did [00:48:20] that come about?

Shyun Patel: Okay. So I don’t [00:48:25] like being put in a box, you know? So I like living my life in paradoxes. So I [00:48:30] am a dental student that’s, you know, run a half [00:48:35] marathon that, you know, is in a band that is called the extractor. Shout out [00:48:40] to my band The Extractors. And I like doing things where you go on stage and then, you [00:48:45] know, we’ve been at the bar plenty of times. So this juxtaposed of life and I thought, okay, you know why? Why? Okay. [00:48:50] Good question. I’m not I’m [00:48:55] not majorly religious, but I believe in God or there’s something out there, right? And so I [00:49:00] believe I, I believe in God, but I don’t believe in a religion right now. [00:49:05] The issue with that maybe call it an issue with the wrong word is that you have to find what is [00:49:10] your purpose. And I had to sit and think, what was the purpose of life for me? And I found that [00:49:15] the purpose, life for me is to feel things the good, the bad, angry, sad emotions. And [00:49:20] you get emotions from striving for things. You know, the process of building a company builds emotions. And [00:49:25] so with experience, I thought, what is the one thing that builds the most emotions? It’s meeting people, speaking [00:49:30] to people. People bring the most emotions. So I thought by [00:49:35] doing a bunch of different things, I’m actually going.

Payman Langroudi: Exposing, exposing.

Shyun Patel: Things. Yeah. The [00:49:40] why, why why why why. Comes back to, you know, my purpose of life. I like feeling things. Everything will come back [00:49:45] to that. So me doing different things, me, you know, going in paragliding in Vietnam [00:49:50] and then, you know, sitting in volunteering for a charity exposes me to two different kinds of people, [00:49:55] which selflessly, I have a really good conversation with [00:50:00] that person. Hopefully they enjoy it. But also selfishly, I get to experience two different sides of life. [00:50:05] And that’s my why. That’s why I like doing a bunch of different things.

Payman Langroudi: So keep going. The app [00:50:10] then.

Shyun Patel: So then I thought, okay, um, they say don’t, don’t. When [00:50:15] kind of doing a Start-Up and creating a business, don’t try and solve [00:50:20] a problem for everyone else. Try and solve a problem that you have and assume that other people have that same problem. Yes. So [00:50:25] I thought, okay, um.

Payman Langroudi: You were having dating problems.

Shyun Patel: Say problems. It’s, um, [00:50:30] it’s more that it’s looking at the world [00:50:35] and seeing which direction is the world going in and the world is going to a more a more digital way. [00:50:40] And sure, people try and push these apps where you meet in real life, but everyone’s [00:50:45] free to do that. And I think that comes from within. And you don’t need a platform to go and meet people, you know, on the street. You can have [00:50:50] conversations and whatever the way the world is going a certain direction, and I have some amount of influence. So [00:50:55] I thought, okay, the way apps are sorted now, where there’s different little bits of information, [00:51:00] there’ll be information like you support Liverpool FC and I support Liverpool FC, so that means we’ll get on and [00:51:05] that gets you so far or you’re like Iranian compatibility. Yeah. Well [00:51:10] it’s more like your.

Payman Langroudi: Common interests.

Shyun Patel: Common interests. You have common hobbies, but you don’t have common alignment. [00:51:15] Yeah. First, second or third day. Fourth day. And then what are you talking about? You’re talking about how many kids do [00:51:20] you want and where do you want to live? And you know, what’s affected your your perception of love? What’s your relationship with your parents [00:51:25] like? Right? Yeah, I actually believe that there are about 20 questions that [00:51:30] you could ask somebody that would give you a pretty, like I could give you a sheet of 20 questions and you have 100 [00:51:35] words for each question. And I could say to you, knowing you, if you’d get on with that person or not from [00:51:40] the talk, you could probably tell yourself, I think maybe you get it wrong certain times with more, with a lot [00:51:45] of probability. I feel like you would be able to tell if you were to get on with that person or not. So [00:51:50] I.

Payman Langroudi: Hear.

Shyun Patel: You. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But look, you know, the notion of like, opposites [00:51:55] attract.

Shyun Patel: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: Are you, are you is that is that.

Shyun Patel: It’s not, it’s not, it’s not, it’s not pairing based [00:52:00] off the same answers. Yeah. It’s pairing based off. So the obstacle 21 [00:52:05] questions. Um, and I’m trying to build an MVP at the moment.

Payman Langroudi: So, so what are [00:52:10] those say four of the questions like the good ones.

Shyun Patel: Um. What, [00:52:15] what, what is a reoccurring [00:52:20] issue you’ve had in relationships that you want to change, for example? Right. And [00:52:25] I think these are questions that I see someone sat in bed a long [00:52:30] day of work on the phone, on the sub, reading someone’s answer to something about the relationship. It doesn’t [00:52:35] have to be.

Payman Langroudi: I see, I see, I see, I can see other people’s answers. Yes. Yes. Raw.

Shyun Patel: Raw. [00:52:40]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I see.

Shyun Patel: And then you almost fall in love with that person through the way they speak. But all that does is the [00:52:45] the real life interaction still needs to happen, right? That’s the fundamental.

Payman Langroudi: But how interesting.

Shyun Patel: Instead of [00:52:50] meeting someone at like, let’s say the person you’re gonna date is typical [00:52:55] dating apps get you 60 to 100% and every person on date falls within 60% compatible, 70, [00:53:00] 89 to 100. I’m trying to get you to 90 to 100 where you might not get on with everyone, but [00:53:05] for every date you go on, you know, at least.

Payman Langroudi: You know the person quite well. Yes.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. You’ve [00:53:10] hit the ground a little bit runny. You’ve opened this conversation’s something I did actually, in a different format. Um, [00:53:15] one of the feedbacks from Leeds was they wanted more networking. Yeah. I thought, look, I’m [00:53:20] confident I can come to you and talk to you about anything. Some kids can’t. So we had we had networking [00:53:25] tables and we had a stand that goes, I want to be an orthodontist. I’ve got imposter syndrome. And everyone that sits [00:53:30] at the round table. And we had one dentist on each one gets to start a conversation already. Oh, you got to, I got to [00:53:35] and then yeah, start a conversation. So yeah, something I, I, um, [00:53:40] more passion project, but.

Payman Langroudi: But how far are you with it?

Shyun Patel: Uh, early stages. Um, [00:53:45] I’m working with a developer using a bit of AI now, so AI is cool. And, [00:53:50] um, like I said, building an MVP. So it’s, um, a really viable [00:53:55] product. So it’s how quickly can I, when you start a business, it’s how quickly can I test [00:54:00] this for the cheapest amount of money to the most people? So the best way I describe is, [00:54:05] uh.

Payman Langroudi: Have you read lean Start-Up?

Shyun Patel: I haven’t no. Do you recommend.

Payman Langroudi: That’s where MVP came [00:54:10] from.

Shyun Patel: Oh okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Definitely.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Definitely.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:54:15] but have you come across lovable right.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, I built, I built the website [00:54:20] with lovable.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So MVP can make day after tomorrow. Yeah. Yeah.

Shyun Patel: Literally literally. [00:54:25] Yeah. I was looking at cloud cloud AI as well. I think there’s a good couple systems. But yeah, I think [00:54:30] the thing was you probably had loads of people go, I’ve got this idea, but how fast can you execute is the [00:54:35] basic test.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a funny thing about business ideas because [00:54:40] I was talking to my son about this, you know, like he’s, uh, doing aerospace engineering.

Shyun Patel: How’s he finding.

Payman Langroudi: That? [00:54:45] Hard? Hard, like difficult course. Yeah. Loving it. He’s loving it. He’s having a great time. Um, but, [00:54:50] uh, you know, he’s only the first year. Yeah. And I was like, okay, what are you going to do with [00:54:55] your life after that? And he’s not sure. Like one of the reasons he’s engineering was because [00:55:00] he wasn’t sure.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. It gives you options.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But like, does he want to be an aerospace engineer? [00:55:05] Maybe maybe he’s very into it. There isn’t that much money in it [00:55:10] number one. Yeah. Um it’s mainly defence. Yeah. And [00:55:15] that’s tough if you’re, if you come from the world I come from. Sure. That just gives you PTSD [00:55:20] every time you see it. Um, so there’s those things and then, you know, all his friends are [00:55:25] kids of bankers. Okay. So should he become a banker? And that’s bloody [00:55:30] boring. Yeah, but, you know, loads of money in that. Sure. And so what’s he going to do? Yeah. So I throw out [00:55:35] into the thing. Oh it could be like an entrepreneur guy. He’s like yeah but do what? Which what? [00:55:40] And I think like, I don’t know man. I think everything’s crap.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. [00:55:45]

Payman Langroudi: Everything’s rubbish.

Shyun Patel: Do you find that do you find that as a business owner, I find that I walk into restaurants or look into something. [00:55:50] I could make this better.

Payman Langroudi: No. Everything’s rubbish. Yeah, yeah I know. The only things that aren’t rubbish are maybe my AirPods, [00:55:55] but my latest ones, the rubbish.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. I’ve never been a big airport guy.

Payman Langroudi: But I’m saying I [00:56:00] can’t think of anything. Like you go to like a seven star hotel and it’s rubbish. Yeah, [00:56:05] sometimes. Yeah. There’s plenty of rubbish that everything is crap. Everything could be a bit better. There could be better [00:56:10] coffee at every moment in your life if you’re a coffee guy. Yeah, like there could be [00:56:15] much better everything. I agree. And so it’s so interesting because that means you could do so many [00:56:20] businesses.

Shyun Patel: Look around, look around.

Payman Langroudi: Make it make something better.

Shyun Patel: Yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Have you been skiing? [00:56:25]

Shyun Patel: I’ve been skiing. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So you know those, fully DOS party places on the mountain. [00:56:30]

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like that guy didn’t invent the idea of a party on [00:56:35] the mountain. Yeah. Yeah, he just made it better. He made it good. Yeah. You know? Yeah, yeah.

Shyun Patel: You have [00:56:40] to reinvent the wheel. You’re right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah, yeah. But when you’re young, you think you do. You think you’ve got to be an inventor?

Shyun Patel: Yeah. [00:56:45] I remember that the, the whole solar panel car that everyone goes through.

Payman Langroudi: And you think to invent something [00:56:50] like the number of times I’ve tried to invent some sort of interdental electric brush thing.

Shyun Patel: I think [00:56:55] everyone has had that. Yeah. Self brushing thing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. But just [00:57:00] like if you could have, I don’t know, the best anything.

Shyun Patel: Find a little margin on something that already exists. [00:57:05]

Payman Langroudi: If you had the best anything anywhere.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well, like if you could in Liverpool [00:57:10] make the best anything, anything. The best burger, the best [00:57:15] hotel, the best anything. Yeah. You’d be great a great business. Yeah, [00:57:20] yeah. Then okay. The best, whatever it is in the whole country.

Shyun Patel: Just expand your niche.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. [00:57:25] The best. Whatever it is in the whole world. Yeah. Okay, now. Even better. Now you’re really talking. That’s where the investors [00:57:30] get interested. You know, total addressable market is like $10 billion.

Shyun Patel: Or.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever it [00:57:35] is. Yeah. So if your dating app, you know, it doesn’t have to even be the best dating app, the best dating app for the [00:57:40] type of person.

Shyun Patel: Who.

Payman Langroudi: Wants that.

Shyun Patel: Kind of thing. Exactly. Yeah. But you’ve got a niche though. I think that’s what [00:57:45] things are. You just businesses are just attacking niches. Yeah. And you know, to.

Payman Langroudi: Start.

Shyun Patel: With, yeah. So [00:57:50] that’s what I’m starting with a niche, starting in a small city, building a culture, a culture building is a big thing. You’ve got it with the podcast. [00:57:55] So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Something I’ve come across, I mean, is this, is this, am I talking [00:58:00] crap? Why are Patel so like good at business? Like, what’s that about? Is it [00:58:05] true?

Shyun Patel: Yeah, there’s, there’s.

Payman Langroudi: My partner’s a Patel, my business partner.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. There’s a whole I [00:58:10] have had that as well. I said at the conference, the last thing we need is another Doctor Patel. But it’s probably [00:58:15] going to be another 50 come through next year. Um, I don’t know. Maybe [00:58:20] it’s culturally rooted. I’m not sure. Maybe it’s the Asian background. [00:58:25] Maybe it’s just we come from a background of they say Patel’s a shopkeeper’s. You know, they say [00:58:30] there’s always this joke. Or was it at school? Um, what? Patel’s don’t play football [00:58:35] because every time they have a corner, they build a shop. That’s what they say. Right. Um, [00:58:40] and I think just having that there’s a difference from working in a factory [00:58:45] that kind of style and having your own business, no matter how small it is. So I think maybe that entrepreneur [00:58:50] has always been a thing. And then I’m not sure. I think I think maybe as [00:58:55] Patel does something, you look at that Patel would do something and then herd mentality. Herd mentality is a thing, [00:59:00] isn’t it? Um, and then you’ve got this auntie saying this and this uncle saying this and you think, okay, I’ve got to [00:59:05] be this. I think that’s what it is. I’m not sure. What have you come across a lot?

Payman Langroudi: Patel’s yeah man. [00:59:10] Yeah. A dev told me, you know, dev from Dental beauty, he told me, yeah, he’d [00:59:15] be sitting in, in rooms where people were just discussing business plans when he was [00:59:20] six, and he was paying attention to that. And he said by the [00:59:25] end of it, like what.

Shyun Patel: Education.

Payman Langroudi: What he knew about business was way more because [00:59:30] it was openly discussed in the family.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, that’s a good point.

Payman Langroudi: He said, might have been a Patel trait.

Shyun Patel: That [00:59:35] is true. That is true. Your family gatherings and there’s just politics or this person’s done this and you start to think, [00:59:40] oh, maybe people everything comes.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you know, people underestimate osmosis as [00:59:45] a way of learning, you know, because my me and my brother, we used to be [00:59:50] in the same place all the time when we were kids. Yeah. But I was happy sitting [00:59:55] in the kitchen. Yeah. And my brother wasn’t. Yeah. And I wasn’t sitting in the kitchen [01:00:00] to learn how to cook. Yeah, but you can’t help it. Like your mum or your grandmother are chopping an onion. [01:00:05]

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I realised many years later, my brother doesn’t know how to chop an onion. [01:00:10] Yeah, yeah. And I do not, because anyone came and taught me because I was sitting in the room 100%. [01:00:15] Osmosis is such an interesting.

Shyun Patel: Way of, I say to students like now, as if I’m not a student, but [01:00:20] the power of showing up, right? Just show up and just. Yeah, just show up and sit there and just.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll tell you the other thing that you’re [01:00:25] very good at that more people should be like you. Yeah. Just asking [01:00:30] you be amazed at myself. The number of people who will never [01:00:35] ask for something. Yeah, I think I, I learned it when I was 45. [01:00:40] Really? Just like if you want something, ask for it. Yeah, yeah. And the number of times people have [01:00:45] asked me for something and for no reason, I’ve just said yes because it solves [01:00:50] my problem. Just because it feels good to help someone, right?

Shyun Patel: It takes a lot to ask, [01:00:55] I think. Yeah, it takes a lot. Takes a lot to ask.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But some people find it really easy and ask loads of questions and they [01:01:00] they get a lot further.

Shyun Patel: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: And some people find it really hard and don’t even think to ask. [01:01:05]

Shyun Patel: I guess asking question is technically taking a risk. You’re taking a risk. You’re putting yourself in a position of you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Putting [01:01:10] yourself out.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, you could even before you were this famous student. Yeah, you [01:01:15] could have, you could, you could send an email to Corey Ferran. And [01:01:20] ask him to shadow for a week. Yeah. And he’s the kind of guy who. Well, listen, by the way, don’t [01:01:25] do that. Not not you. I’m saying I’m not. I’m not encouraging everyone to email. Email Corey. [01:01:30] Who knows? But he is the kind of guy who might just say, yeah, come turn up to my unbelievable [01:01:35] practice in in Wimpole Street. Yeah. And stand around for a week. He might say that [01:01:40] as a as a student, you think, why would he say that? Yeah.

Shyun Patel: But actually [01:01:45] why not? I actually, I actually flip, I actually flip what you say on its on its head about why [01:01:50] would a student say yes. So I started this whole not entrepreneurship, [01:01:55] but this whole dive into the dental world through Andy [01:02:00] Acton, you know, um, your ex rival podcasters, podcasters. [01:02:05] Yeah, I don’t know, friend, frenemy, frenemy, I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: He’s, he’s a good friend.

Shyun Patel: He’s [01:02:10] a, he’s a, yeah, he’s, he’s probably the first guy that I’ve reached out to in the dentistry that gave me, gave me a [01:02:15] hand. And, uh, I just, I just, I just sent him a sent him a message. And yeah, I [01:02:20] remember the last thing I said in this Instagram DM because we don’t have, you know, messenger pigeons or, you know, that’s the [01:02:25] millennial way. Um, I said, uh, I think he has the same question. Like, which three people would you, would [01:02:30] you want to eat dinner? And I think I said, oh, I maybe next time someone asks me, I can [01:02:35] put, um, Andy acting next to, I think Cristiano Ronaldo and, uh, Joe Rogan and [01:02:40] then you go, sure, let’s go for dinner. We went for dinner. And I find that what I [01:02:45] said now it’s a different game. It’s a bit more saturated than when I first took the dive for whatever [01:02:50] reason. Is that the second you graduate, the second you get your GDC number, it becomes [01:02:55] a lot harder. It becomes a lot harder, I feel, because in some minds of some [01:03:00] people, not everybody like yourself, your competition, right? When you when you’re a student, you’re just, you’re [01:03:05] just a student that’s asking for help. And you people want to help you. If you’re young and you ask for help, I feel like people want [01:03:10] to help you. And I found that when I, when I was coming through my perspective.

Payman Langroudi: Jesus Christ, man.

Shyun Patel: I, [01:03:15] I find that that’s the best thing that I’m talking about. Andy said to me is that [01:03:20] we’re not none of us are competing. We’re competing against someone buying a new car or a new holiday. [01:03:25] You know, there’s enough patience to go about, which is what I believe. But I think my [01:03:30] generation, maybe a little bit older, there is that kind of competitive streak between people, unfortunately. [01:03:35] And I think.

Payman Langroudi: It goes back to the type of person who can get into dentistry [01:03:40] these days. It’s a competitive type of person.

Shyun Patel: True, true. You can’t blame I guess it’s, uh.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:03:45] find it overwhelmingly people don’t see each other as competitors. I mean, people see [01:03:50] each other as competitors when they’ve got practices on the same road.

Shyun Patel: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: I can see that [01:03:55] we we kind of play on that a little bit as suppliers. Yeah I do. Yeah. Um, [01:04:00] because we have one partner who is that status in that town [01:04:05] and people want to be that partner. Sure. You know, um, but people practices [01:04:10] on the same road maybe. Yeah. Sometimes teachers get competitive. [01:04:15]

Shyun Patel: Do they?

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes. Sometimes teachers get competitive. But [01:04:20] it’s definitely not the case. Overwhelmingly.

Shyun Patel: I find people want. Every person I’ve reached out to [01:04:25] has helped me, and I feel like I’d encourage students that people want to help you. They have no reason not to help you. You know. [01:04:30]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s go to PDSA. Sure. Yeah, because I was massively impressed by [01:04:35] the Leeds one passer did. Yeah. Um, just the scale [01:04:40] of the thing.

Shyun Patel: He smashed it.

Payman Langroudi: I had no idea. I hadn’t been to that part of [01:04:45] PDSA for years anyway. Yeah. But I had no idea how big it was. Yeah. 1000 [01:04:50] students, 1000 humans. Yeah. Anything times a thousand is a nightmare. Like [01:04:55] if you want to put a leaflet out for a thousand people. Yeah, that’s one, two, three, 4000. [01:05:00]

Shyun Patel: So when you see, when you see it, you’re like, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Just a leaflet, one leaflet or [01:05:05] you want to put you guys ask us for toothpaste for you put a thousand toothpaste into a thousand [01:05:10] tote.

Shyun Patel: Bags. Our living room saw it, you know, living room.

Payman Langroudi: So anything. Tens of thousands. [01:05:15] Tough. So tell me about did you volunteer for it?

Shyun Patel: Yeah. So [01:05:20] I, we talked about me not not getting Dental SoC. Yeah. [01:05:25]

Payman Langroudi: And how long did it take you to get over the crushed feeling? Were [01:05:30] you still not over it?

Shyun Patel: Still crying. I’m weird. It’s it’s it’s. I’ll [01:05:35] get past things because you can’t dwell on things. But also, maybe this is the wrong approach. You’re sensitive, [01:05:40] but having. Yeah, I take things personally because I feel like that drives me to want to go. And that’s cute. [01:05:45] Yeah. Close the loop. Got to close the feedback loop on everything so.

Payman Langroudi: You got.

Shyun Patel: Over it. The bracket was open. Yeah. Well, I [01:05:50] said everyone has a selfish and selfish reason for doing everything. Yeah. My selfish reason [01:05:55] was the same as Dan soccer wanted to show people you can be anyone and do anything. Yeah. My selfish reason was [01:06:00] I wanted to, you know, make my parents proud. Essentially, I wanted them to see me on that stage. And I said, at the [01:06:05] Dental, the president’s parents got to go on stage, got to come to the ball. They’re the only parents who [01:06:10] come to the ball, and they were going to see me on stage and be like, oh my God, I didn’t get it. And I was like, oh. So I [01:06:15] thought, okay, I’m gonna go for it. So I went for it, but I thought, if I’m going to go for it, I’m gonna fall flat on my face. So just [01:06:20] a week after Leeds. Bear in mind the AGM for voting was in July. I was like, I’m gonna start planning now. [01:06:25] You know, like I’m gonna give them irrefutable evidence. I’m going to do this. So I [01:06:30] viewed all the venues. One week after Leeds went to all the venues, went to the M&S Bank arena, went to the cathedral, went to all these [01:06:35] venues, planned it and made a logo before the thing even existed.

Payman Langroudi: Before you were the guy.

Shyun Patel: Before I was the guy, [01:06:40] I made the logo and I went to, uh, Jay Jay Patel, super [01:06:45] lovely guy, worked with aspire and we made this video, this trailer that has gone around [01:06:50] and yeah, went, went there. And I said to them, well, [01:06:55] what would you want? I thought, what would they want from someone going for this role? And when you’re pitching [01:07:00] yourself, I find everyone goes, I’m a rapper. This, this, this, this, I do this, this, [01:07:05] this, that’s fine. But if you give them an experience where you’ve got the logo, you’ve got the venue. [01:07:10] And the one thing I said is that everyone can say x, y, z. But I said, you might not remember every lecture. [01:07:15] You might not remember every drink at the bar, but you remember how you felt, right? [01:07:20] And people come back to me and say, I remember that. And they go, I gave them something that almost existed in their mind, and [01:07:25] them not voting me would have taken that away. It wasn’t something to gain. It was something to lose. And [01:07:30] so I got this. And little did I know that again. Um, fast forward [01:07:35] to November, October. There were points where if I was to go back, I probably [01:07:40] wouldn’t have done it. We talked about this naivete and my.

Shyun Patel: So [01:07:45] I got the conference. I built a committee of about 20 people, [01:07:50] average age about 21. I thought, okay, you know, leads cost about [01:07:55] 160 grand. We’re in for 190. We’ll make something. And maybe this is just poor [01:08:00] budgeting. The issue with Bdsm, which I think it’s almost harder than some businesses, is [01:08:05] that you have some sort of financial plan with the business. You know, you go, we’ve got these, you know, nails [01:08:10] and we know this is going to come in and it’s going to be north or south of this. This is what we’re planning for. It should be to say is that [01:08:15] you you sign a bunch of contracts like I’m going to spend this money. And then it’s like, well, we’ve got zero. We’ve [01:08:20] got to make this money now. And one thing that I found is that when I’m set on something, maybe it’s this obsessive [01:08:25] trait or issue that I have, I’m set on it, I want this, I want this to happen. [01:08:30] So instead of budgeting, I made more money, went from 190, became 200, 200, 210, 210, [01:08:35] 200. And in the end it was me and three other three of my team. We made, we made a quarter [01:08:40] of 1,000,000 in 8 months.

Payman Langroudi: And in total.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, in total.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s sponsorships, [01:08:45] ticket sales tickets.

Shyun Patel: So yeah, we sold, uh, 950 tickets in nine minutes. [01:08:50] And what? Yeah, we sold it in nine minutes. We sold out in nine minutes. [01:08:55] How we did ticket drop and sold out in nine minutes. We did three, four ticket drops.

Payman Langroudi: The anticipation [01:09:00] thing.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. Well, that’s the thing. I thought one thing I said, which thankfully paid off for [01:09:05] me from the second I got it, I go, this is the biggest undergraduate Dental conference in history. And it [01:09:10] wasn’t it didn’t exist. It hadn’t happened. But I just said that. I said that from the July. And [01:09:15] it was a risk but self-fulfilling. It became the biggest Dental student conference in the history of the UK from. [01:09:20]

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting with students, the. The virality is gigantic. It’s much more. I’ve [01:09:25] noticed that when I get students on this. Yeah, the virality is way more way. [01:09:30]

Shyun Patel: Really.

Payman Langroudi: Than when I get.

Shyun Patel: Why do you think that is?

Payman Langroudi: Because you guys are just more connected, more connected [01:09:35] to each other. I mean, like, for instance, the notion that you have to download the society app. [01:09:40] Yeah. To buy a ticket. Yeah, it sounds ridiculous. It sounds mad, like from a, from a business perspective. [01:09:45] What more friction? Sure. Yeah. But the, you guys know that [01:09:50] you have to download the society app and that, that news travels, you try and get that news [01:09:55] out to dentists. Yeah.

Shyun Patel: So many steps.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Come, come and buy a ticket to my event. [01:10:00] By the way, download this app first. Who’s gonna do it like with students Just news [01:10:05] travels.

Shyun Patel: I think I think what you do in your events is very similar to BSA. [01:10:10] And I’ll tell you why I want to ask you about it. So I’m not naive enough to know that not [01:10:15] every student cares about education. Want to spend a weekend learning, right? Not every student wanna do that, right? [01:10:20] But when it comes back to the thought that you don’t know what you don’t know. So you’re having an event at Ministry of Sound. Yeah, [01:10:25] that’s a cool place to be, right? Some people just want to go to ministry. Some people for [01:10:30] me just want to go to the boat party. Some people just want to go to the cathedral. This is a party. Yeah. And [01:10:35] they go for a party, and they end up walking into a lecture. Oh, I learned something there. So it’s almost like I played [01:10:40] on the people that want to learn are going to come anyway. The people that want to come for a boat party want to come to create [01:10:45] an aspect of FOMO, want to come to a big gala dinner, are going to come for that as [01:10:50] a by-product. They’re actually coming for the the conference is the by-product and they end up learning and meeting. [01:10:55]

Payman Langroudi: Someone said, we get this on our composite course. Yeah, people pay 1500 pounds for a two day hands [01:11:00] on and a number I wouldn’t say the majority. Yeah, a [01:11:05] number are just like trying to get out of the surgery.

Shyun Patel: Really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s hard. Being a [01:11:10] dentist is hard. Yeah. You have four walls and a nurse. Yeah. If you don’t get out once in a while, see the world, [01:11:15] see what’s going on, you get tired? Yeah. Um, and by the way, they’re on [01:11:20] the course. They’re on the course. But their primary driver is to maybe sometimes [01:11:25] 2 or 3 of them will get together and you know, from pals from dental school now they’re like [01:11:30] eight years in or something and they’ll say, oh, let’s have a weekend in Manchester together. Yeah, we’ll do it on the course. [01:11:35] Yeah. But their main driver isn’t to learn the skill, but they’re [01:11:40] in the course. Yeah. So sometimes we’ve had uh, warehouse project on [01:11:45] at the same time as mini smile makeover. And sometimes we turn up for the second day and [01:11:50] half the class didn’t make it.

Shyun Patel: Somehow.

Payman Langroudi: To the.

Shyun Patel: Second day. Yeah. [01:11:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And they paid £1,500 for the, for the, for the learning. Yeah. Um, [01:12:00] I mean that’s rare when half the class don’t make it. But.

Shyun Patel: But it happens.

Payman Langroudi: What? Your point [01:12:05] is, people do things for lots of different reasons. What events? You know, [01:12:10] like ministry for me is, is the idea with it was that I, [01:12:15] it started out with, I’m pissed off with gala [01:12:20] bloody dinners.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like I get.

Shyun Patel: Subpar food.

Payman Langroudi: You know, why? [01:12:25] Why do we have to dress up like James Bond?

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like, why? I mean, then you say, oh, it’s [01:12:30] a chance for the ladies to put their dresses on. Okay, fine. Yeah. And the other thing I [01:12:35] got really pissed off with is, uh, fancy bloody dress. Yeah. [01:12:40] I don’t like fancy dress. I do not like it personally. Okay. So then. Then I was talking to. Who [01:12:45] was it? Nick Sethi from bath. They’ve got a big fancy dress party. Okay. And I said, why is it we have to turn [01:12:50] up either as James Bond or Spider-Man? Why can’t we just turn up as us?

Shyun Patel: Yeah, yeah. For yourself.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:12:55] that that idea of let’s let’s do a party where it’s just us. Yeah. Was [01:13:00] the initial thoughts? Sure. Yeah. But then with events, as you know, the two [01:13:05] big costs or it depends on your, your focus, right? But for me, the two big [01:13:10] costs are the a V because all AV is terrible everywhere. Yeah. I mean everywhere.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, [01:13:15] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: If I come across a single place where the AV is any good.

Shyun Patel: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: So you have to bring it in [01:13:20] yourself. Of course. It’s a goddamn nightmare.

Shyun Patel: Expensive as hell.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the setup that [01:13:25] you have. How much did that cost? That was unbelievable. How many.

Shyun Patel: Screens? So?

Payman Langroudi: So [01:13:30] it was one gigantic screen.

Shyun Patel: It was one gigantic. And it fed in. So our overall setup for the [01:13:35] the whole thing was V6O8V30.

Payman Langroudi: Well that’s all.

Shyun Patel: Bad. It’s not bad, [01:13:40] but a lot of AV came with our room, which our room hire itself was 60.

Payman Langroudi: Oh [01:13:45] okay. Okay.

Shyun Patel: So then yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So for me AV is a massive problem. Yeah. Getting a nice [01:13:50] good screen. Yeah. Feel sound. Everything correct. Um, so Minister [01:13:55] of Sound’s got amazing AV in place, like the world’s best sound systems.

Shyun Patel: Did not come from just. You want a good [01:14:00] AV and ministry and just married the two AV.

Payman Langroudi: And then the second thing is the party, [01:14:05] the social. Yeah. Mhm. Um, for me, that’s important because of everything we said, because I [01:14:10] have fun number one. But number two, so everyone can have fun, everyone can have fun and meet each other and [01:14:15] ministries ministry. Yeah, it’s already it’s already in place.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So I suddenly realised those two [01:14:20] things are in place. Yeah. And then so the idea of a nightclub event was, [01:14:25] was the thing. And then we said, like which nightclub?

Shyun Patel: The nightclub. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s have a look. [01:14:30]

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I realised I was looking at Coco as well, which is in Camden.

Shyun Patel: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:14:35] name recognition wise. Yeah. Ministries Ministry.

Shyun Patel: Of [01:14:40] course.

Payman Langroudi: Well, and it’s so interesting. Yeah. Because if I said the minimalist at Queen [01:14:45] Elizabeth’s second conference centre. Yeah, yeah. Now you don’t know what [01:14:50] that is. You have to fully trust me on what the education is going to be like. Even if I had an [01:14:55] amazing party at Queen Elizabeth and party. It’s a cell. It’s difficult [01:15:00] to know what that is. Whereas you kind of know what this ministry events going to be anyway, [01:15:05] because it’s a nightclub event, we’re trying to make it different.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And make it very fast paced [01:15:10] and education that’s different. And treatment planning, audience participation [01:15:15] on nice. You know, which way did it, should it go? Experts say what they think. And [01:15:20] the.

Shyun Patel: Audience.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And only 15 minute lectures. Um feel different. [01:15:25]

Shyun Patel: Yeah. That’s what people want. We talk about like businesses. You don’t have to be better. You have to be different.

Payman Langroudi: Not [01:15:30] only different in a stupid way though. I just think like education’s a bit stuck.

Shyun Patel: What do you [01:15:35] think it’s going like?

Payman Langroudi: It needs to go and what it needs a shake up [01:15:40] like definitely needs a shake up dude. Yeah. Because like education hasn’t changed.

Shyun Patel: Dentistry [01:15:45] has changed. Education hasn’t changed. Yeah, yeah. It’s lagging. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve always thought [01:15:50] if I was the BAC, d or the a d, you know, like rich organisations. Yeah, [01:15:55] I would take a blank canvas event. Yeah. Have you seen it when you’re looking for [01:16:00] venues?

Shyun Patel: No.

Payman Langroudi: Some venues they’ve got things. They’ve got bars and all that. And [01:16:05] this blank, blank canvas.

Shyun Patel: Oh, you can build it.

Payman Langroudi: You can build it, whatever.

Shyun Patel: Where you have the expense there. The expensive, expensive. [01:16:10] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But but the notion of while you’re watching the lecture, we’re doing this at Missouri [01:16:15] while you’re watching the lecture, food and drink are available while you’re watching the lecture.

Shyun Patel: Nice. [01:16:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shyun Patel: So it’s an experience.

Payman Langroudi: If I yeah. If I want to have a beer while I’m watching this lecture, it’s [01:16:25] there. Yeah. And there’s, there’s waiter service in the VIP, you know what I mean. So, so it makes [01:16:30] going and I think of it as a cinema. You know, I’m not a massive movie fan. Okay. [01:16:35] Yeah. But if I ever go to a movie, I definitely go to one of those ones where there’s amazing food, [01:16:40] amazing sofas. Yeah. Because if.

Shyun Patel: The movie.

Payman Langroudi: If the movie’s rubbish.

Shyun Patel: This [01:16:45] experience was something.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’ve got I’ve still got the experience, you know, that that was the thinking.

Shyun Patel: No, [01:16:50] I like that. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then tell me a okay Massive risk.

Shyun Patel: Massive [01:16:55] risk.

Payman Langroudi: Not knowing whether you’re going to pull it off financially. All of that. These 20 [01:17:00] people were you like, did you did you ask like, what’s the best way? Or did you [01:17:05] think of it yourself?

Shyun Patel: There was.

Payman Langroudi: Was each of them in charge of one aspect?

Shyun Patel: Yeah, there was a lot of I’m a strong [01:17:10] believer that anything that you do, you stand on the shoulders of those before you. So so with Lina and Parsa, um, [01:17:15] both did amazing successful events. And, you know, we had my committee, [01:17:20] you had the exec committee, you guide me. But ultimately I had a vision. And the vision is [01:17:25] not made up of anything physical. It’s just kind of these ideas of feelings.

Payman Langroudi: How you want people to feel.

Shyun Patel: Sure. [01:17:30] And I thought sometimes it’s just you have dreams of stuff like, would it be cool to be in a boat party [01:17:35] and see fireworks? I thought, let’s just make that happen. So did it. Um, and I wanted [01:17:40] people to step in there and feel I’m not, I always say the phrase, I want the least interesting thing about [01:17:45] me to be that I’m a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Shyun Patel: Right. So, you know, [01:17:50] we’re in the people business. So you don’t talk to people about being dentist or talk to patients about being [01:17:55] a person. So come to the event I thought I want, whether you’ve got imposter syndrome, [01:18:00] you’ve got you want to be an orthodontist or you want to have 50 practices, there’ll be, there’ll be someone there [01:18:05] for you. And, uh, with the committee, it’s hard to motivate people. You’re not paying. Yeah. [01:18:10] And what I’ve learned is that people are motivated by different things in business. It may be [01:18:15] I can. Now, you might come up with a couple more, but in business, I narrow it down to three things. Motivate [01:18:20] by money, move by time, motivate by how much can I progress my career? Okay. [01:18:25] I guess committees like understanding each person’s individual, knowing what drives them. And [01:18:30] I said, the harder it is, the more fulfilled you’ll feel. And you make a name for yourselves. And we had [01:18:35] a little, um, kind of reality TV show that Artemis, uh, was [01:18:40] doing for us on our social media team. And I realised that I am, I have [01:18:45] an understanding of everything, but I’m not the best at anything, you know, maybe, you know, talking to sponsors [01:18:50] and onboarding clients. You know, I feel like I’ve got some grasp back, but the social media guys, [01:18:55] they’re better than me. You know, the people doing the ball, they’re better than me. All these different teams, all these different [01:19:00] people were better than me. So I think to be a good leader is to understand you are good at this. You [01:19:05] be in charge, you give them guidance and you can, you know, have to reshape some emails and, [01:19:10] you know, well.

Payman Langroudi: Well, that’s an important point, dude. Yeah. Because yeah, I [01:19:15] like Virginia. Yeah. We know we both the Virginia. Of course. Hey, you take care of this. [01:19:20] Yeah. Whatever the thing is. Yeah. The the delegation [01:19:25] of that task to her. Yeah. There’s one sort of easy way of [01:19:30] thinking about it is I want people to feel this way. Go for it. Yeah. And leave it all [01:19:35] up to her. Yeah. Yeah. That’s one way. Yeah. That’s not great leadership.

Shyun Patel: No, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:19:40] great leadership to even say, I want someone else to do something, I trust you. Yeah. That’s one level [01:19:45] leadership. But the next level is Success looks like this. Yeah, [01:19:50] failure looks like that. The milestones towards success [01:19:55] are five. So we’ll meet five times as [01:20:00] each of those milestones happens. Yes. And we can work out together. What’s the best thing and what’s [01:20:05] in your way and how I can help you.

Shyun Patel: Of course. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well, it’s not my natural way.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. No, [01:20:10] my.

Payman Langroudi: Natural way is. Go ahead and do whatever you want. Have to do.

Shyun Patel: Do you feel like it comes out [01:20:15] the way that you want it or you. You’re okay with that? Do you go with.

Payman Langroudi: My natural way? Man, I’m. I miss those [01:20:20] five meetings. Really? Yeah.

Shyun Patel: I kind of see it as the. I kind of see it as [01:20:25] like there’s a, B and C players in kind of businesses, companies, how good they are, how [01:20:30] good they are. But sometimes people.

Payman Langroudi: You can leave them.

Shyun Patel: Ace. Like, you know, I’m going to tell you, do [01:20:35] this, do this, do this, do this. B’s going to be like, I want this, but these are the landmarks on here. And [01:20:40] C’s like this is the goal. Make it happen. And, and I think, you know, [01:20:45] Dave and Virginia, for me, very much like could tell them things. Of course, sometimes it’s not exactly how I wanted [01:20:50] it. Sometimes it’s better than how I wanted it. But that’s when you delegate. Delegate is a tough, tough.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:20:55] one of the toughest.

Shyun Patel: It’s.

Payman Langroudi: How did you find sales? Did you find that [01:21:00] very simple? It came.

Shyun Patel: To me. I’m a. I’m a Bryant Dental rep.

Payman Langroudi: So of [01:21:05] course you are.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. Been been doing sales and.

Payman Langroudi: I just had. I just had them on. Did [01:21:10] you and Connor.

Shyun Patel: Connor. Nice. How did it go?

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. It’s um with [01:21:15] sales. I think it’s just understanding. People say, how can I provide value to this person? I think if [01:21:20] you’re trying to sell something when it comes across wrong, but you miss the point, the whole point of sales, [01:21:25] I feel, is to what value add can I add to this person? What experience have [01:21:30] they had? So what people don’t ask the question, what conference have you been to? You’re a dentist. You’re went to BACD. What [01:21:35] was really good for you? What didn’t go so well for you? And then how can we focus [01:21:40] in on the things that do provide you value. Um, and understand look.

Payman Langroudi: And then delivering [01:21:45] is the.

Shyun Patel: Delivering is hard.

Payman Langroudi: It’s hard when there’s so many. You guys, we have 3036 [01:21:50] sponsors.

Shyun Patel: Well, that’s the thing. It’s you know, I think overall there was a positive experience. [01:21:55] Someone had an amazing experience. Some sponsors didn’t have um, as [01:22:00] positive as others, but they’re all positive. But then it’s like different people want different things [01:22:05] out of it. And when you push in one direction, something else gets taken. And it’s [01:22:10] for me, the hardest thing with BSA was everyone talks about like, okay, undersell overperform, [01:22:15] but then when you’re scared of selling 1000 tickets, you kind of got to market it. So do I, do I over market [01:22:20] it and like make it this big phenomenon? Do I under market and no one comes to it. It’s that [01:22:25] balance is very tough for me and I will not be doing it again. Events for a long time, but [01:22:30] I’d have a lot more insight going forward.

Payman Langroudi: You learn loads, you [01:22:35] learn loads. Um, but I find, you know, what I find hard about selling is intention [01:22:40] to buy. Yeah. Is kind of this cloudy thing. [01:22:45] Sure. Saying yes, I will buy. Yeah. Like the yes moment. Yeah. [01:22:50] It’s difficult to.

Shyun Patel: Even even after the yes.

Payman Langroudi: The than the payment. Oh, yeah. Like payment for events. [01:22:55]

Shyun Patel: We’re still waiting as.

Payman Langroudi: A as a sponsor myself. Yeah. I personally hate paying [01:23:00] for an event before the event. Like, yeah, like with me, I like paying one week before if I [01:23:05] have to. Sure. I kind of like paying for it after the event. As, as the organiser though, you need [01:23:10] that money, especially with you guys, right? There is no other money.

Shyun Patel: There is no other money.

Payman Langroudi: There’s some other money [01:23:15] I.

Shyun Patel: Was seeing the account were down, down, down the invoices. And you’re waiting for. Yeah. And then the Po [01:23:20] number and all these things come up.

Payman Langroudi: But but then, but then, but then the cardinal sin, the cardinal sin is [01:23:25] being very attentive until the moment that people say yes. And then and then [01:23:30] just leaving them. Yeah. And it’s, it’s almost, it’s almost like a natural thing [01:23:35] because your motivations are that way. Like right now I need this headline sponsor for [01:23:40] Ministry of Sound for sure. Yeah, I need it. Yeah. So I’m following up people. I’m like, [01:23:45] hey, did you look at the thing? What do you reckon? You know, I need it badly. Yeah. So I’m following [01:23:50] up. Then when the person says yes, I’ll be the headline sponsor, your natural thing is to breathe. [01:23:55] Okay. That’s done. I don’t need to contact him.

Shyun Patel: You still need to deliver.

Payman Langroudi: Actually, you do need [01:24:00] to contact him and say, hey, let’s talk about how we’re going to make this a massive success for you.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, sure. And that’s what [01:24:05] I think. I think the event was so big, it was trying to balance. One thing I wanted to do was the experience for the sponsors. [01:24:10] So typically have trade fairs and you dot people. I allocated committee members [01:24:15] to groups of stands. I said, look, if no one said go make conversation, talk to them, bring people over. I wanted everyone to [01:24:20] have a good experience. Um, and it is a hard balance to, you know, when you’ve got the next [01:24:25] thing to the next thing to do. But ultimately the, the sponsors and I think students realise this [01:24:30] really allow the events to go to this size, then investing in the next generation [01:24:35] and hopefully there’s some value add is what makes these events possible. So I’m forever indebted to the sponsors because [01:24:40] some of them won’t realise those points. My back was against the wall and it’s not like it’s [01:24:45] very easy for me to say, but there’s a there’s a there’s a [01:24:50] point that could be argued. I don’t want to compare them where you’re in business. And sure, [01:24:55] if your house is up for sale and your back’s into one of your kids, food’s on the plate, you’re in dire situations. But if [01:25:00] I’m in a business and I could have made money and lose a bit of money, fine. But this was national humiliation. This was [01:25:05] I can’t make I can’t make a loss. I have to chase it. And when we were going to, to [01:25:10] January. Um.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so funny, isn’t it? The driving force is [01:25:15] I don’t want to be humiliated and I want to make my parents proud.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. [01:25:20]

Payman Langroudi: Like, it’s a funny thing, you know, like from the outside, you’d say, hey, here’s an ambitious [01:25:25] kid. Whatever. He’s doing his event, whatever. Yeah, but the driving force is to make my parents [01:25:30] proud.

Shyun Patel: We signed the contract, and then you sign your life away. And I was like, that’s it. Life was gone. Didn’t see my friends, didn’t [01:25:35] do it was, uh, it was a tough year. It was, uh, I was, I would say to people I did about 40 hours [01:25:40] a week on top of. Give us an.

Payman Langroudi: Example of something that went badly wrong that you didn’t expect.

Shyun Patel: I [01:25:45] did something bad that came around to be a good thing in the end. Um, so we were initially, [01:25:50] every year there’s, there’s been one venue, if you’ve been to them, the dinner and the conference [01:25:55] in one venue. And so we went to the M&S Bank arena. We wanted to have everything in one venue. That’s what happened. [01:26:00] They have in-house catering, so we didn’t know that we were set on this place. It was [01:26:05] the only place that could hold that number of people. So we either can do a conference that was smaller than last year, or have [01:26:10] to push it to 1000.

Payman Langroudi: You’d made the promise, right?

Shyun Patel: I made the promise conference. I [01:26:15] had to go for it. 1000 signed it. Everything was good before I signed it, had conversations and they would go, okay, [01:26:20] you can’t use any of the catering. And they use this company called, I won’t say this company. They have to use an in-house company. Now [01:26:25] they’re catering for all the people. And bear in mind, I’ve never done events. So I just went off what passed and I [01:26:30] go, okay, catering for the ball 13,000. Okay, okay, cool. [01:26:35] But 13,000 went to these guys.

Payman Langroudi: For a thousand people.

Shyun Patel: I don’t know how he does it. Don’t know how he did it. But [01:26:40] they had an in-house company, I think £15 each.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. They they got some Indian companies [01:26:45] going. This company. Okay. Um. How much? 8000. I [01:26:50] go, oh, okay. We’re not gonna have to have a dinner. How we can do it. So then okay, [01:26:55] I’ve got I’ve got a new venue. Can I find another venue? Do the a v for everything. Less than eight hours. I found one, they could bring it down. [01:27:00] Okay. I did it at the had the cathedral set it up. As we’re going along [01:27:05] they go. We had a really bad experience bringing in an external caterer. You’ve got two caterers to choose [01:27:10] from and this and the price for catering was like 5000. And [01:27:15] I was in a point where we weren’t going to have a gala dinner. There was going to be no gala dinner for BSA [01:27:20] for the first time ever. And it was in those times I went and spoke to Dean Virginia. It was I sat in my room [01:27:25] and my head was on the table. And I just thought, what am I going to do? So we tried [01:27:30] and tried and tried. I tried asking him, tried this sort of stuff, had a back and forth about trying to make stuff okay. We tried to build trust. Oh, [01:27:35] we’ve got the backing of the city. We can do this. We can sit down and talk to us. And one day, the [01:27:40] top guy of the cathedral sent a letter and he goes, no, no, no, you [01:27:45] got to use these guys got 50 K. And I got to Virginia and Dave got this email and I was in clinic and I got [01:27:50] this email and go, okay, so we’re not we’re not going to have a dinner. Okay. We got to figure out what we’re going [01:27:55] to do now. Panic stations. Remember the committee don’t know. It’s almost like we’re the parents and we [01:28:00] know something bad’s going to happen and they don’t know, and.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t want them to lose their.

Shyun Patel: License and [01:28:05] nobody knows. And you’re here and your heart’s palpitating. I remember we got told about, um, ten, [01:28:10] 10:00, okay. And I said to Virginia, [01:28:15] I go, okay, a sense of almost I call it delusion, [01:28:20] a delusion. It was complete delusion, complete long shot. I go, you know what we’re [01:28:25] gonna do? And this was after months of back and forth, go to wardrobe and find [01:28:30] your best suit and put and put your best suit on. And we’re going to go and knock on the front door of the cathedral tomorrow. [01:28:35] So we’ll put on our suits next day. Completely hopeless. They and [01:28:40] they, we’ve had conversations like what? They told me. They just humoured me. They just humouring me. I [01:28:45] had this delusional ideas put on our suits. Three piece suit. One suit just went to the cathedral, knocked [01:28:50] on the front door. They were like, look surprised.

Payman Langroudi: Without an appointment.

Shyun Patel: No, no appointment. [01:28:55] Just turned up, turned up to the front door and we went in there and I sat down and they see [01:29:00] this and go, look, I’m running this event, this three day event. And we’ve worked so [01:29:05] many months on this. And the last piece of the puzzle is getting this dinner sorted. And we’ve tried for months [01:29:10] and we’ve had ups and downs. And I want to look at you. And I said, look, you’ve never had a student event here. You have [01:29:15] no reason to trust me. Right? And I gave him all these reasons to why this, all these reasons, what I will [01:29:20] do will work for the team. Da da da da da. And he goes, okay, get this, get [01:29:25] this caterer. You want to bring in, get him to sign a proposal. Like two weeks later, I wrote a proposal, got it approved, [01:29:30] and I flipped it around. But it was it was no logic. It was nothing. It was just a sense of just [01:29:35] let’s just go. And I think no analogy for life. Just go knock on the front door and just amazing. Just see. Yeah. [01:29:40] So lots of ups and downs, a lot of, uh, grey hairs gained. But, uh. [01:29:45]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about practice.

Shyun Patel: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: What do you want to tell [01:29:50] me about?

Shyun Patel: Yeah. So, uh, your practice. Yeah, yeah, it’s [01:29:55] an interesting thing to say to me. So I’ve got a pretty [01:30:00] interesting, interesting story. I have a dental practice. Now. [01:30:05]

Payman Langroudi: How did you fund it?

Shyun Patel: I [01:30:10] had an interesting business. So when I was 19, I, [01:30:15] you know, like typically typical young Asian [01:30:20] kid, like I got a whatever I do in life, I wanted to make an upstream impact on upstream and wherever [01:30:25] I landed on for me, I wanted to make impact, you know, in terms of as a clinician, you impact your patients. Like, how can I impact [01:30:30] the, people, the dentists, the impact the patients and make as much impact as possible. I like talking [01:30:35] to people. That’s my strength. I’ll, I’ll go down the group of practices. And my plan was I was going to get [01:30:40] one in my first year, my first one two years out. But I thought, okay, to [01:30:45] to do this goal, you need some capital. And I was 19, I tried dropshipping, I [01:30:50] tried trading, tried forex, I made a couple thousand, lost more thousand, didn’t really do much. [01:30:55] Right. So and then one day I was, I was in my living room at home. I was scrolling [01:31:00] through Facebook Marketplace and everyone’s probably watching this saying, you should go touch grass, go [01:31:05] outside. But there I was scrolling through this marketplace and I saw that people were selling fridges on Facebook Marketplace. [01:31:10] But the weird thing was that they were selling them for free. I was like.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:31:15] just take it away from me.

Shyun Patel: Take it away from me.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s a problem, right?

Shyun Patel: Yeah. And I was so have you seen like a [01:31:20] fridge or a sofa on the side of the road? People often see them. And I thought, why, why, why do people do this? [01:31:25] Did what? Research? And turns out there’s CFCs and chemicals in and fridges that make them really [01:31:30] hard and dangerous to dispose of through landfills. It’s quite expensive process. Yeah. And, um, [01:31:35] I thought, okay, sat and I thought and I thought and I thought and I thought, okay, the same way Uber [01:31:40] don’t make cars and Trivago don’t make hotels. I’ll connect product to consumer. [01:31:45] So I one day went on Facebook [01:31:50] and I reached out to a guy selling a fridge and, um, [01:31:55] said I hired, I think the first one was with my car like a small one. And I went [01:32:00] and picked up this fridge and put it in my polo. And then I did a bit of research about, [01:32:05] you know, it was in pretty good shape this first one. And then I sold it.

Payman Langroudi: Was it working?

Shyun Patel: It’s working, [01:32:10] it’s working, it’s working. All of these ones are working.

Payman Langroudi: The guy just wanted.

Shyun Patel: To just.

Payman Langroudi: Get rid of rid of it.

Shyun Patel: They want new [01:32:15] fridges, but they wanted.

Payman Langroudi: To sell it on Facebook Marketplace.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, we did a bunch of someones Facebook Marketplace, uh, [01:32:20] eBay, bunch of different stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Got it for free from Facebook Marketplace and then sell it.

Shyun Patel: And then what I did is, [01:32:25] um, is that I realised that there’s something here, you know, being the middle man. And [01:32:30] I then used to, like, you know, hire vans, uh, pick up fridges from all over, all [01:32:35] over. I was at uni.

Payman Langroudi: Facebook marketplace.

Shyun Patel: Facebook marketplace, eBay tree, [01:32:40] bunch of different websites.

Payman Langroudi: Loads of people were trying to get rid of fridges.

Shyun Patel: Fridges, fridges, and sometimes there’s [01:32:45] forums just this. You find crazy stuff online and pick them up and then we just [01:32:50] sell them. And I hired a bunch of people, um, knew what to look for [01:32:55] and things were faulty. You got to be careful because you need specific engineers to drain the gases and stuff and. [01:33:00]

Payman Langroudi: Fixing them.

Shyun Patel: Not not fixing them. It’s more like just taking a good, well, well, [01:33:05] um, fitted fridge that was functioning, cleaning it down. If [01:33:10] parts change. We did that, we kind of, um, freelanced that I bought relationships through the years and [01:33:15] then you sell them and then, uh, made a good amount of money and, uh. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:33:20] this is in dental school.

Shyun Patel: This is in dental school. Yeah. And, um, something that I don’t really talk about too [01:33:25] much, but yeah, I just thought, let’s now look at anything like TV. Microphone. There’s cup. I think someone’s [01:33:30] made 100 grand or a million off.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. This I look at fridges now and I think yeah, it’s great. [01:33:35] And unfortunately like the, the legislation, um, around fridges [01:33:40] has changed to change the chemicals and things. But that was something I did and it was, uh, just a gap in the market I saw. [01:33:45]

Payman Langroudi: So interesting.

Shyun Patel: And yeah, just used to be the fridge man and just, uh, buy and sell [01:33:50] fridges and did pretty well and then got a bunch of capital and [01:33:55] from there, you know, did a little bit in forex and then pushed it a little bit. [01:34:00] And then.

Payman Langroudi: When was the Bryant thing in this.

Shyun Patel: Bryant thing was more [01:34:05] in.

Payman Langroudi: Before or after fridges? Uh, during.

Shyun Patel: Towards the end of it, [01:34:10] Brian wasn’t really for monetary value. Brian was I wanted to learn, uh, [01:34:15] sales. Um, I think like a lot of people that have had contact with Bryant, the people [01:34:20] and the company, it’s very electric. I talked to George a lot And just [01:34:25] it’s just a forward thinking company. And I think like, you don’t know what you don’t know. And people [01:34:30] go and say, yeah, I want to build this big DSO big company. But like DSO is not structured the same way that [01:34:35] a single practice is, you know, these, these practices are almost structured more like a corporate company. [01:34:40] So having insight into manufacture, having insight into companies and [01:34:45] structure and people. And also, like I said, sometimes I’m talking to students, sometimes talking to my tutors. [01:34:50] And when you’re selling to, to dentists, it’s quite an intimate thing. So you’re having a conversation and they’re being [01:34:55] vulnerable with them. And as a person, a lot of most of these guys are sales reps, but I was a dental student. [01:35:00] So you learn a lot from talking to these guys. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Listen, working for Bryant might be one of the best things [01:35:05] you could do as a dental student. Yeah. But what I find really interesting is their insight to [01:35:10] understanding the students will make good salespeople. Yeah. Because no one else is. No [01:35:15] one’s really done that.

Shyun Patel: I think only now recently other companies are catching on. But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So it could be anything, [01:35:20] anything.

Shyun Patel: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: But that insight is a really interesting insight that they kind of built their.

Shyun Patel: Shoes [01:35:25] are hungry now more than ever. They want, they want, they want to.

Payman Langroudi: But, but, you know, you going into [01:35:30] 100 practices or whatever, however many you went into meeting 100 dentists, you could get [01:35:35] a job with one of those guys if you want. You’re more like the employer type than the employee. So [01:35:40] you made all this money?

Shyun Patel: Yeah. And then what happened was I would [01:35:45] so, so so I figured that clinical dentistry people talk about my tooth. I took [01:35:50] my tutors now and they go as people come out of dental school, they’re coming out. Maybe this isn’t true, [01:35:55] but this is just a thing that some people say. Maybe five trainers say that, oh, they’re coming [01:36:00] out worse and worse every year. And maybe there is not for everyone, but [01:36:05] an arrogance to some people coming out. And I feel that I am completely average dental student, average [01:36:10] every year. Nothing, nothing extraordinary academically or in terms of my with my [01:36:15] hands, I feel like it’s going to take me time to be a good dentist. I’ve got a lot to learn. I can learn off anyone. I don’t claim to be anything [01:36:20] special, but the business of dentistry. There are people, there are books. There [01:36:25] are videos you can learn about CQC. You can learn about comply SEO. You know, you can [01:36:30] learn about these things. You can learn about how to order products, and you can learn how to structure companies. [01:36:35] And I feel like this information, I’m very privileged to be born in the generation I am, [01:36:40] is out there, and I advise people to go out there and just learn about these things. And so. [01:36:45]

Payman Langroudi: You know, it’s it’s drives me sometimes. Yeah, there’s some question. [01:36:50] I’ve got a question. Yeah. Whatever the question is, it could be sure chemistry thing with [01:36:55] I wish I paid more attention in chemistry in school nowadays. And now I’m having to hire a [01:37:00] bunch of chemists. Yeah. But it could be a chemistry. It could be any question. Yeah, sure. And you’re thinking, God, what’s the [01:37:05] answer to this question? You’re feeling a bit down about it. And then you’ve got to just wake yourself up and say, [01:37:10] dude, you are better placed to answer this question.

Shyun Patel: Than anyone in history.

Payman Langroudi: Anyone in history. [01:37:15] Now with AI.

Shyun Patel: Takes me like 10s. Yeah, you know, everything. The thing. So I think now [01:37:20] it’s.

Payman Langroudi: But it drives you.

Shyun Patel: Forward because it’s so it’s so it’s so easy to find [01:37:25] the answer to this people. And it links into the people side of things. But also you can do self-learning or [01:37:30] have more informed conversations about people. And instead of acting, asking, you know, agencies, oh, [01:37:35] like you can ask them what’s a good yield? Or what should you look for? Or what grade building should you look for [01:37:40] or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so, uh, you know, a [01:37:45] practice popped up and, um.

Payman Langroudi: Were you signed on with [01:37:50] Frank Taylor Associates?

Shyun Patel: No, I talked to Andy, but.

Payman Langroudi: For the sake of the argument.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:37:55] were signed up to all these.

Shyun Patel: All these things. And my dad helped me, like, because he has a, he’s [01:38:00] a. Yeah. So so you look, you look at practice and you understand where there’s margins, whether they’re closing early, [01:38:05] whether there’s sort of more practices, capacity, you know, all these different things that you can really spend [01:38:10] time and learn about where the margins can be for practice. And I thought found practice with good margins. I thought, I can’t [01:38:15] take a, I’m not going to take a really thriving practice. I’m practice. I’m not naive enough to, as a 2122, [01:38:20] turn to even more thriving practice, but I thought, you know, there are margins here. Heavily referral practice, [01:38:25] ortho practice. People do clear aligners. You know, people asking this, this lady, oh, do do do do [01:38:30] composite bonding, do do this, this. And they said, no, no no no no. Well, okay.

Payman Langroudi: Was there an aspect of you here [01:38:35] that was like wanting to be the youngest guy ever to buy a practice, like something like that. Because I [01:38:40] remember the first time I met you.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You specifically came and asked me, do you know of anyone younger than me? [01:38:45] Yeah.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. So, so joy is I think it’s, um. [01:38:50] Well, that was a bit of naivety there probably in a little bit of, um, you [01:38:55] know, overconfidence.

Payman Langroudi: You driving you achievement of being, um, someone who does that [01:39:00] in Dental.

Shyun Patel: I think it sounds good, but over a long term, long term it doesn’t [01:39:05] fulfil me. It’s more that they see comparison unconscious comparison. Um [01:39:10] is is can [01:39:15] cause arrogance, I think, or can cause pain, but conscious comparison can cause [01:39:20] growth. So compare yourself to yourself, but also looking at everyone else around [01:39:25] you and almost looking at sure can look at Dental, but can look at dentists as well and say, look, where am I placed? [01:39:30] Because you go from, look, let’s be real. You go from being a and being like, okay, whatever hypothetical [01:39:35] place you want to put yourself in, dental students, then you graduate and then you’re back. You’re just a student, just [01:39:40] a dentist. Then you’re not the.

Payman Langroudi: Most junior dentist in the.

Shyun Patel: World. Yeah. And so then for me, it’s, [01:39:45] it’s, I can’t say I’m where I want to be in ten, 15 years time, but you can look [01:39:50] at trajectories and look at look, if I’m, you know, doing this in my second year, then [01:39:55] I might be doing this my fourth year. So people bloom at different times. But yeah, I mean, it’s cool [01:40:00] to have something so young and it’s scary because no one’s done what you’ve done. So it’s navigating a field [01:40:05] and no one really understands or conceptualises it. But like [01:40:10] I said, it comes down to talking to people, you know, someone’s some of the guys on this podcast an extraordinary [01:40:15] younger than me, um, doing these start-ups doing things that [01:40:20] and it’s easy to look at someone else, you know, maybe even yourself on this podcast, look someone else like they’re doing amazing [01:40:25] there. But oftentimes I look at other people think, you know, they’re killing it. I could dream to be this person or even the things [01:40:30] you’ve achieved. It’s and people don’t give themselves a lot of credit. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think there’s [01:40:35] a, like a downside to all of this insomuch [01:40:40] as chasing something? No, I mean, you’re a dental student, [01:40:45] man. You know, there’s another dental student in Liverpool right now who’s just going out, getting [01:40:50] drunk, kissing girls, whatever, whatever his thing is. Yeah, yeah. He hasn’t got the weight [01:40:55] of the world on his shoulders. Um, which is correct when you’re young. Sure [01:41:00] not to have the weight of the world on your shoulders. And by the way, when he qualifies, [01:41:05] he may suddenly turn into this tactical dude who wants to become a specialist endodontist or whatever [01:41:10] it is. Yeah, sure. But do you do you feel like, I mean, every every big endeavour comes with [01:41:15] sacrifice, right?

Shyun Patel: Lots of sacrifice.

Payman Langroudi: And we can say about like, if you put it in a bracket, [01:41:20] say a big endeavour sacrifice, right? All these extra hours [01:41:25] that you spend relationships.

Shyun Patel: Relationships, friendships, friendships.

Payman Langroudi: Birthdays you didn’t go to. [01:41:30]

Shyun Patel: Yeah. No. And it’s true. And I think the funny with these, it’s like you think you work hard until you actually work [01:41:35] hard. I found that, you know, it’s it’s this, this phrase people [01:41:40] say is that you sacrifice time, you sacrifice time to get money to get time. Yeah. [01:41:45] Right. So, you know, um, and I played with this idea that, oh, I want to spend more time with my [01:41:50] family, so I’m gonna work really hard and have freedom and spend time my family and spend time my family now. So [01:41:55] it’s like, what? Um, and it’s a, it’s an interesting concept. And I [01:42:00] think contentment is something that is something that I really try and think about that I’m [01:42:05] extremely grateful for where I am, you know, from a health perspective for me, but [01:42:10] also, Like I said, for me, it’s, uh, the pursuit, you know, it’s [01:42:15] the pursuit. It’s the range of emotions I will feel getting to that point. When I get to the point, I want to feel something [01:42:20] else. So I might chase be more creative, I might chase friendships, [01:42:25] and I try and find the balance. You know, I don’t feel like I’m someone that, um, I’m [01:42:30] quite content with someone being more successful than me because I want to have an enriched life.

Shyun Patel: You know, I like music. [01:42:35] Uh, I mentioned I was in a band and I like running, like going to the gym. I like [01:42:40] going to the pub with my friends. But there is a point where when [01:42:45] you’re so invested in business and work, I [01:42:50] felt like this. I became very obsessed where I couldn’t turn, I couldn’t turn it off. And every time [01:42:55] I was with my parents, I could tell I was knowing them. And I was knowing my friends that I’m in the room, but I’m not really in the room. [01:43:00] And the cogs are turning and I’m checking my phone. I’m saying, one second Payman, I need to, uh. And it’s [01:43:05] hard because then it’s where does the contentment end? When? When are you content with life? Because not [01:43:10] being content, if not content with how you look, you go to the gym. If you’re content, you don’t do anything. So it’s like, where [01:43:15] is the balance? And that’s not an answer that I have right now. I could ask you the same question. Where does it go [01:43:20] with you to push for the next thing? Because the reason you go for the next thing is because to [01:43:25] some extent, you’re not happy with how things are right now. But then where does that.

Payman Langroudi: I find it hard, man, [01:43:30] this question of contentment and progress. I think it’s [01:43:35] bursts of each. Yeah, because they seem like they’re in opposition with each other. If I’m content, [01:43:40] why am I progressing? I’m content. Right. Sure. Um, there’s [01:43:45] another thing that when you, when, when you got your diagnosis. Yeah. That, you know, [01:43:50] that thing that spurred you.

Shyun Patel: Spurs you back into the.

Payman Langroudi: As you get, as you get older, it becomes a question [01:43:55] of how many years have I got left in this business? Yeah. And did [01:44:00] I, did I achieve, did I live up to my, to my potential?

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an interesting [01:44:05] question. Potential. Yeah. You know, I remember had Robbie Hughes. It was episode [01:44:10] six or something, and he was he was saying he’s an obsessive guy. [01:44:15] He’s one of the most obsessive guys I’ve come across. Yeah. Um, but what really drives [01:44:20] him is living up to his potential.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. And I think Matthew McConaughey says in one speech is that I’m chasing [01:44:25] myself in ten years time. And when I get there, I’ll chase myself in ten years, I’m never going to catch, you [01:44:30] know, my hero or myself. But that’s the joy of it.

Payman Langroudi: But the reason I bring it up is I [01:44:35] look at I sit here, look at you and think, wow, man, at this age, so focussed, so [01:44:40] like interested and interesting and, you know, you’re gonna I feel [01:44:45] like from the business perspective, everything’s going to be just fine. There won’t be a problem.

Shyun Patel: But [01:44:50] that’s the fact that I’m not sure of that is what drives me.

Payman Langroudi: There won’t be a problem. Yeah. It depends on what [01:44:55] your goal is. If your goal is a thousand practices, then you may not get. Yeah. [01:45:00] You know what I mean? Who knows? Yeah. I just feel like from the business perspective, you you love it so much [01:45:05] that you will be successful. But the question of the question I asked about, what [01:45:10] are you missing out on? Yeah, you’re definitely missing out on something for sure. Now you’ve got this [01:45:15] rounded career, right? You’re in a band. I, if I were you, I would [01:45:20] just stop, smell the roses and think a bit more about that. I know you’re in your final year [01:45:25] now, but your your next 2 or 3 years. Yeah. After [01:45:30] that, you’re not really young anymore.

Shyun Patel: No, it’s it’s like you said, [01:45:35] the balance of. Yeah, you can go back to Spain when you’ve got [01:45:40] all these millions and. Yeah. But there’s something beautiful about going with your friends and staying in a hostel and being a bit [01:45:45] broke.

Payman Langroudi: That speech you made, I don’t know, like, is that was that original content or whatever?

Shyun Patel: Yeah, it.

Payman Langroudi: Was.

Shyun Patel: Beautiful. Yeah. [01:45:50] So, uh.

Payman Langroudi: To summarise.

Shyun Patel: So for.

Payman Langroudi: Someone who wasn’t.

Shyun Patel: There. So so I asked [01:45:55] at the beginning of the conference, what’s better, the journey or the destination? And [01:46:00] I said to people, the question I’ve been thinking about a lot and one day, you [01:46:05] know, people might have grandchildren. The grandchildren come running up to you and they’ll go, grandma, grandma, what was better? You had [01:46:10] this amazing life, this amazing career. What was better, the journey or the destination? And I told everyone [01:46:15] to pause and to take a look to their left and look to the right. And in the end, it’s not [01:46:20] about the journey, not the destination, but it’s about the company. For it’s not where we’re going, nor how we get [01:46:25] there, but the people we do it with. And I think this podcast and the, the philosophies [01:46:30] that this podcast shows that it’s not really where it’s going or how it got [01:46:35] the people and the conversations you have through the process is really what makes life enriching. And [01:46:40] I guess for me, it’s, it’s, it’s not about it’s not even where I’m going. I [01:46:45] think all these things I’m doing just open doors to meet new people, you know, whether [01:46:50] success allows me to go to the depths of India and meet, you [01:46:55] know, people there or, you know, through the process, I get to meet even. That’s one thing that [01:47:00] drives me as a dentist, you know, who, who’s going to sit in your chair and have such interesting conversations and I.

Payman Langroudi: Miss [01:47:05] the thing I miss the most about being a dentist.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I think.

Shyun Patel: When it comes back to you, what you said about why, why, why, why, [01:47:10] why the one why that I can’t answer. The one why that I don’t have a why to is I [01:47:15] genuinely like on my like hand and heart. I love talking to people. I get [01:47:20] such a thrill. I love it, I talk too much, I love it, it’s, uh, it’s. And I can’t tell you why. [01:47:25] It’s just love the conversation, love feeling. And [01:47:30] I think that’s why I like films, you know, someone talks to you and they take you on. And I was like, what do we like to to have [01:47:35] enlightened run a podcast? I’m hearing you speak and you’ve got a son like, yeah, I never thought about life like that. And it just [01:47:40] enriches my experience of, of life.

Payman Langroudi: What’s been the biggest mistake you’ve made?

Shyun Patel: The [01:47:45] biggest mistake.

Payman Langroudi: Clinically.

Shyun Patel: First. Sure.

Payman Langroudi: Clinically [01:47:50] be perforated.

Shyun Patel: I have perforated. Yeah, I [01:47:55] have perforated.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a moment isn’t it.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. It’s your heart drops. You know.

Payman Langroudi: I have, I have. [01:48:00]

Shyun Patel: But the first time is.

Payman Langroudi: When the blood doesn’t stop at all.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, yeah. I remember the [01:48:05] first time I took out a tooth, uh, fractured it. That was, uh, that was definitely something. [01:48:10] I remember it really, really funny one. I think it was my, my second patient, Liverpool [01:48:15] was really good. My second patient ever had. We had patients, we see patients from first year. And [01:48:20] I remember this one time vividly. Um, I [01:48:25] had a patient and he had, he had two first names. So for the sake of argument, let’s [01:48:30] call him.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, Harry Tom.

Shyun Patel: Like Steven Adams, Steven Steven Adams, [01:48:35] right? His name is Steven Adams. And I go, oh yeah, Steven Adams. Come to the Steven, Steven. [01:48:40] Mr. Steven Adams and I realised about a month in that his name was Adam Stevens. [01:48:45]

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Shyun Patel: So that was that was one thing. Um I’ve had, I’ve had, you know, [01:48:50] you know, we know each other in Liverpool, so you see some stuff. Mhm. Um but [01:48:55] yeah, clinically I’ve been pretty, pretty sound. But yeah. Breaking routes um exposing [01:49:00] popes. All of that stuff. And, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Which aspect [01:49:05] of dentistry do you like the most at the moment?

Shyun Patel: Do you know what, general? I really enjoy everything in dentistry, but [01:49:10] the thing that sparks excitement to me, which is, you know, ironic because I’ve just talked about breaking roots, [01:49:15] is oral surgery. I really like oral surgery. Don’t know if it’s because it’s more scarce than other things. [01:49:20] And for me at Liverpool Dental School, when I just take it out, I just feel like.

Payman Langroudi: Have you ever cut [01:49:25] a flap?

Shyun Patel: I’ve not done that yet, but I’m grateful to be a [01:49:30] shameless A.D. rep plug. Um, and good friends with like Amit. We [01:49:35] had George at the conference as well. Manraj Rickey So I’ve gone to like ag events where they do mainly [01:49:40] focus on implants and peri dental school is very different. [01:49:45] I don’t know what to say to you. Periodontics is very different. Perio post post-grad and [01:49:50] so much more interesting. So oral surgery, perio implants [01:49:55] went to Shadow Evo not so long ago.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, how’d you find that?

Shyun Patel: I loved it. I really.

Payman Langroudi: Loved it. [01:50:00]

Shyun Patel: No, um.

Payman Langroudi: Just on their program.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. Yeah. No, I know, I did it. I think he, um. [01:50:05] I’d spoken to him about it. Um, but I spoke, I was with a guy called Amar [01:50:10] who also went to my school maybe 15 years before me. And it [01:50:15] was just for me, you know, getting people out of pain. It’s almost a superpower, right? It’s a [01:50:20] superpower that we have that we have a responsibility to do. And there’s a multitude of ways in which we get people out of pain. But [01:50:25] one of the ways is, you know, unfortunately or fortunately, taking out teeth. Yeah. Now, if you [01:50:30] have longitudinal care with a patient, you should take out the teeth and socket. But, but I think something about fixing [01:50:35] that gap with a, with a prosthetic. And that’s where kind of the, the close bracket [01:50:40] of that treatment, it kind of almost feel like when I take a tooth out and the happy and they go away, I almost want to [01:50:45] close that gap. Yeah. And I feel like watching them do full arch implants and just [01:50:50] they’re so skilled and their workflow was amazing. Just set a fire.

Payman Langroudi: And the work is very [01:50:55] important work, you know, like, like giving someone a set of teeth. Yeah. Fix teeth. Yeah. [01:51:00] Change their life. Yeah. Change their life. You understand? Like it’s hard to imagine [01:51:05] for people like you and me. Sure. What it’s like not to have any teeth. Yeah. But. But for [01:51:10] a second, for sure. Go there. Yeah. Imagine. Teeth. Yeah. Like that. [01:51:15] I can’t eat, I can’t kiss, I can’t, you know, these are fundamental. [01:51:20] Even fall in love. Who’s gonna fall in love with the person with no teeth?

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I can’t fall in love. Like, these [01:51:25] are major issues in life.

Shyun Patel: Of course.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And so, like, the great thing about Implantology [01:51:30] is it’s serious work. Number one, the work itself is serious, but it’s serious consequences [01:51:35] is in good consequences for sure.

Shyun Patel: And I think the fact that.

Payman Langroudi: If you’re into it.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. [01:51:40]

Payman Langroudi: Jump in man. Um, do you think you’re going to be a proper working dentist or have you one of these guys who wants [01:51:45] not to be?

Shyun Patel: You know.

Payman Langroudi: What?

Shyun Patel: From the beginning, I’ll be hand on heart. I love [01:51:50] clinical dentistry, and it’s all good and fine and dandy doing all these other projects [01:51:55] and businesses, but it’s almost like the business aspect of it. So I think people make decisions [01:52:00] a lot on financial. I think people make financial decisions. Most people. I want to do cosmetic dentistry. [01:52:05] Yeah, I like it. But I thought about, I don’t know, peds as well, but I went with it because equal. [01:52:10] But this has paid better. Yeah. A lot of people do that.

Payman Langroudi: I hear that a lot.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. I don’t want finances [01:52:15] to ever be affecting the choice of something I’m passionate about. And so the business [01:52:20] side of it is just keeping me afloat, paying for me to live the business, do the business things. And [01:52:25] that’s why businesses are there. I have a passion for that. But dentistry, I want to think, I want to do implant if I [01:52:30] didn’t get paid.

Payman Langroudi: Like a hobby.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. If I didn’t get paid for it, I genuinely am fulfilled from the work I genuinely fulfilled from [01:52:35] going there and doing dentistry. And of course you can graduate and you don’t know what you don’t know. So I don’t be naive [01:52:40] and say, yeah, I’m going to do this and streamline it and I’ll come back to you. And I’m an orthodontist. Who knows? Um, but [01:52:45] yeah, right now that that’s.

Payman Langroudi: My advice is go like, you know, my advice is opposite [01:52:50] to all your friends, your mentors advice is to, yeah.

Shyun Patel: Tell me, tell me.

Payman Langroudi: Most people say try [01:52:55] lots of things. Decide. Find out what you love and chase that. I’m like, pick [01:53:00] anything.

Shyun Patel: And then just.

Payman Langroudi: Go and get really good at it and you’ll end up loving it.

Shyun Patel: Sure. [01:53:05] That’s very true as well. I think the hardest thing in life is knowing what you want to do and then taking the steps. [01:53:10]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, within dentistry, like if you had some outsider, you know, someone had nothing to [01:53:15] do with our world. Yeah. And he was listening to you and he was like, oh, you can’t make up your mind whether you’re going to focus [01:53:20] on gums or root canals or, or whatever. You know, like restorative [01:53:25] or. Yeah. Can’t make up your mind on that outside of like, what the hell, like get good [01:53:30] at any of them.

Shyun Patel: Do you know what? Even even for me, I like I like general dentistry. I know, I [01:53:35] know, I know, um, maybe a lot of young people I’ve heard speak, like have a speciality. I [01:53:40] like general, I love, I love it and you know what? Even just.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the thing to get really good at. [01:53:45]

Shyun Patel: As well. I’ll tell you one thing as well. Even if I was to have, you know, whatever success in business, [01:53:50] I, I do like the. And I’ve not lived it. So people are probably listening to this like, no, get out. I [01:53:55] like the hustle and bustle of like NHS dentistry. I want to I, [01:54:00] and I think it’s, I think some.

Payman Langroudi: People like it, some people.

Shyun Patel: Like it. I want to build foundations.

Payman Langroudi: Some people like the fast moving [01:54:05] nature of it.

Shyun Patel: I’m not saying forever. I’m not saying forever.

Payman Langroudi: But some people love the fact, the consequences a little bit [01:54:10] less because your patient hasn’t really properly paid for it.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, but I’m not one of those.

Payman Langroudi: Some people like the fact that it gives [01:54:15] you lots of experience very quickly. Yeah. That’s that’s where you’re when you [01:54:20] ask your teachers, they’ll say this. They say, go do something, you know, get your miles in. Yeah. It’s true. [01:54:25] Yeah. Um, but I don’t, I wasn’t into it at all. [01:54:30] I hated it, I hated it. I remember in f d on the first day of f d when they said, [01:54:35] oh this is what, and it was firstly the practice itself, um, [01:54:40] didn’t make me.

Shyun Patel: I know there’s lots of red tape and I know there’s lots to it, but I wonder if [01:54:45] the financial implications. And I know there’s a multitude of maybe things that people want. But if financial [01:54:50] finances were there, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Listen, I’m wrong about this. Yeah, it’s just [01:54:55] my own bias. Yeah. Yeah. But a patient is a patient. Yeah. An NHS [01:55:00] patient needs care.

Shyun Patel: Of course.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And so if you’re involved in the care of that NHS patient, [01:55:05] you know, that’s dentistry. Sure. Yeah. I’m pissed off with third party telling me [01:55:10] what to do.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s between me and the patient. I understand patient’s got a problem. I’m the dentist. I don’t [01:55:15] want any third party telling me what to do. Sure. That’s what really annoys me the most about it.

Shyun Patel: And I think there’s [01:55:20] so much to it. And that’s a conversation we’re having. You know, this three year tie in and all [01:55:25] these things. Because when you’re with the PDSA, you go to these meetings and they have these conversations. [01:55:30] It’s interesting. I don’t know where the industry is going to be for young people.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think you’re going to be one of these DSO types? Would [01:55:35] you like to? Would you like to have multiple practices?

Shyun Patel: I would like to yeah. And it’s not it’s, [01:55:40] uh, I don’t come here thinking that I [01:55:45] can I’m better or I know something more than anyone else, But in my head, I think [01:55:50] you have to believe you can do it. I always say, if you think you’re going to succeed, you might not necessarily succeed. You’re gonna [01:55:55] fail. You’re 100% fail. And and people. My mum always tells me, don’t set expectations. [01:56:00] Expectations so high. You know, you’re gonna be crushed when you don’t get it. And I always say, you know, if you shoot [01:56:05] for the stars, in worst case, you land on the moon.

Payman Langroudi: No, I know, but but like, [01:56:10] some people wouldn’t see multiple practices as the stars.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, sure.

Payman Langroudi: I think for me, [01:56:15] it’s a particular character.

Shyun Patel: For me, I want that because I want to have, um, if [01:56:20] I’m going to go into details more, look, you can run a [01:56:25] single practice in a certain area and a certain demographic with a certain amount of stuff a certain way. Okay. And [01:56:30] for me, I want to have impact. Remember, my goal is to have as much impact. And there’s different [01:56:35] ways you can create a product technology. But for me, you know, having a group practices and impacting dentists, [01:56:40] impacting their day to day, impacting patients, having their own. But if I have one practice run a certain way [01:56:45] and I go Payman run a practice, you go. Well, you don’t know that this is a very specific circumstances. [01:56:50] If I have a practice in Norwich and I practice in London, I practice in Newcastle and I practice in Spain [01:56:55] and they’re all happy, they’re all doing well and they’re all slightly maybe this maybe this kid is [01:57:00] way of and I don’t know this, you know, I could be completely wrong. Maybe the way that he does things works [01:57:05] to some extent. And maybe that’s a selfish thing, like a selfish thing. But I really [01:57:10] want people to have a good experience day to day, because the people [01:57:15] that work for you, they come in and little things.

Payman Langroudi: But, but but, but the, the, let’s say [01:57:20] the vast majority of dentists who start a practice or work in a practice, own [01:57:25] a practice, own one. Mhm. Yeah. One. Sure. And it’s [01:57:30] much easier having a happy workplace in one practice.

Shyun Patel: Sure. [01:57:35]

Payman Langroudi: Than in ten. Sure. Like a much, much, much easier.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, I can imagine that.

Payman Langroudi: So so [01:57:40] if your goal is to have a happy workplace.

Shyun Patel: My goal is to my main goal is to impact as many patients [01:57:45] as possible.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But then impact, I used to say this when I was your age. Yeah. Um, I [01:57:50] hate dentistry for that reason. What my impact is going to be. Yeah. This room and [01:57:55] the people. But impact is as much about depth than it is about breadth. [01:58:00]

Shyun Patel: Sure. And I think.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a difficult.

Shyun Patel: Needle. That’s the balance, right.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a difficult needle to dance on. Yeah. [01:58:05] But you know impact. All right. 10,000 people will download this podcast. [01:58:10] Yeah. Impact. Yeah. Is that is that enough or do you want [01:58:15] sponsorship for this podcast? Is that impact? Sure. Yeah. It’s just a funny thing.

Shyun Patel: How do you find [01:58:20] it? Scaling versus keeping quality because that’s always the balance.

Payman Langroudi: Everything’s everything’s hard, man. Everything’s [01:58:25] hard. Believe you me. Like a hundred practices. Yeah. All working. [01:58:30]

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a massively difficult thing to pull off massively. We got to, I [01:58:35] don’t know, 29 employees. I remember it was that’s where it was at 29 employees. [01:58:40] We had a massive situation with employees. Yeah. Like someone was bullying some. Some [01:58:45] manager was bullying a bunch of people that we had no idea about. We didn’t know. [01:58:50] Yeah. Yeah. 29.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: In the same building. Yeah. Yeah. Um, [01:58:55] so, so, so my point is it gets harder and harder and harder. Now you’re saying you’re up for hard [01:59:00] things. Great. Yeah. But but you.

Shyun Patel: Have to be aware, I think I think that’s the thing. No, no, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: It’s understanding [01:59:05] like the it’s important that the driving force behind the. [01:59:10]

Shyun Patel: Decision.

Payman Langroudi: That you’re after.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is based on something that actually [01:59:15] makes a difference because, you know, like sometimes it’s convenient for it to be, I want to make my parents [01:59:20] proud. Yeah. But your parents are proud.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. No, that’s not the driving factor into the practices, I think. [01:59:25] Look, like you said, you can.

Payman Langroudi: Impact is huge.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. And there’s different ways of making impact. There’s [01:59:30] there’s different ways we all make impact.

Payman Langroudi: I’m still trying to make it.

Shyun Patel: Clinicians clinicians make him back. Clinicians make him back, you know. [01:59:35] Um, but.

Payman Langroudi: You know, you know, one of the things that dentistry does have that a lot of professions don’t is [01:59:40] that sort of Heartfelt thank you from a patient. Yeah, [01:59:45] you’d be amazed the number of professions that don’t have that. Yeah, yeah. Like if your lawyer does a great job [01:59:50] for you, sometimes your accountant does a great job for you. It’s not it’s not the same heartfelt. Thank [01:59:55] you. Yeah. And so what I’m saying is some of some of the golden bits about being a dentist. Yeah. [02:00:00] Are less impactful than you might realise. Yeah. And so impact [02:00:05] on one person. One person. Sure. Deep impact on one person [02:00:10] might be more important than shallow impact on a thousand.

Shyun Patel: And that’s why I’ll never give up clinical [02:00:15] dentistry. Yeah. Because I think there’s different impact you get. People say like, what makes you happy? It’s not [02:00:20] one thing. It’s not one thing that makes you happy. There’s some things on a really high frequency that make [02:00:25] you happy. Some things like going on a walk make you happy. Yeah. And so for me, like.

Payman Langroudi: For me, depth [02:00:30] of impact has become much more interesting to me than breadth of impact as I’ve gotten older. [02:00:35]

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. When you’re young, you just feel like, oh.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: Practice [02:00:40] in every city in the world.

Shyun Patel: And I think that as you get as I get older, you know, where I start [02:00:45] and where I end may not be because you learn things and you change. I’m not, I’ve [02:00:50] got, I’ve got, I think I’ve got a good balance of being focussed, but also being open that the [02:00:55] thing I think is the right thing to do may not be the right thing to do. Yeah. And I have one conversation that could change that or I could [02:01:00] start this. This is not really what I wanted. This isn’t worth it. This isn’t the goal. And then [02:01:05] you change. And being adaptable, I think they say, I think they said this century the best skill [02:01:10] to have is to be adaptable. Things change so quickly.

Payman Langroudi: Darwin.

Shyun Patel: Right? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what about what stands [02:01:15] out as the best lecture you’ve been to? Like what comes to mind if I say what’s a lecture that stands [02:01:20] out?

Shyun Patel: Do you know what I think? Just [02:01:25] something that someone said in the lecture. So, uh, Christian Joshi did a lecture. It [02:01:30] was in a clinical lecture at the dentistry show. And he said something. He goes, you can’t connect the [02:01:35] dots forward. You can only connect them backwards.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shyun Patel: That’s true. And it really just made me think, [02:01:40] you know what? I’m sitting here trying to plan doing this, this, this. So this is gonna be, I don’t know, all I can do is [02:01:45] sit here now and be like, that happens. I can meet this person. So this could happen. And so they say [02:01:50] what life can only be live forward, but only make sense backwards. And the way he just emulated that really just made me think, [02:01:55] you know, yeah, plan. But also you don’t know what’s going to happen. [02:02:00] You just sometimes have to go with the flow.

Payman Langroudi: What about.

Shyun Patel: Clinical. Clinical I would say. Manraj [02:02:05] Kalsi and Ricky Bhopale I [02:02:10] went to the a d I went to like a the road show and [02:02:15] just some of the ways they were talking about implants. And for me, it’s interesting that, [02:02:20] um, I, that for me was like really, really [02:02:25] informative. It’s a whole day hands on, but some of the stuff they were talking about, some things they could do, some things I didn’t know were possible. [02:02:30] And then that partnered with my experience at Evo where it wasn’t really a lecture, but I thought the whole day was kind of a lecture learning [02:02:35] experience. Um, really for me stood up.

Payman Langroudi: What about like, what’s your favourite resource? [02:02:40] Like it could be anything. It could be a book, it could be a website. It could be a [02:02:45] Instagram page.

Shyun Patel: Um. I’d say [02:02:50] Instagram in general is a, is a big resource. And I’d say as [02:02:55] much as I want to pinpoint it to, to one thing, uh, the multitude of different, different Instagrams, [02:03:00] um, some of the, you know, I look at some guys in, [02:03:05] in London or America really good at marketing. Some guys have really good clinical cases here. Um, I [02:03:10] think, yeah, there’s no, there’s no specific Instagram page, but the more [02:03:15] of them all together and then, you know, little things like, um, revising for exams [02:03:20] and also like, I know it sounds quite cliche, but the BSP and all these guidelines you can [02:03:25] read and just stay on top of them and yeah, standard resources.

Payman Langroudi: And [02:03:30] what would you say is your hero?

Shyun Patel: My hero. Um, [02:03:35] I’d probably say my hero is my dad. I [02:03:40] said, my dad’s my hero because. [02:03:45] From [02:03:50] achieving success, but coming from a humble background made me realise that no [02:03:55] matter where you go, who you become, where you come from, you should always, like, stay [02:04:00] grounded. He’s values people. He [02:04:05] always puts people first, even at the detriment of himself, which, you know, there’s a healthy balance. And I think [02:04:10] just having that humility in life, it’s so easy, especially not to get caught up in [02:04:15] noise and stuff. And I always say, you know, you [02:04:20] can go around dental school and it’s great. And people say shine, they shine that. But when I come home to my friends, [02:04:25] some of them are tradies, some of them are lawyers, some of them are unemployed. Go [02:04:30] home to the same pub, and in that pub we’re all we’re all the same. We’re all just a bunch of losers. Just [02:04:35] sat with our pint in our jackets and old friends. Yeah. And it’s just like, you know what? No matter what, I always want to [02:04:40] have those core values of what’s important in life, what’s important in my. Why did I choose to do dentistry? [02:04:45] Why not choose to do business? You know, keep in sight of the core values and not getting [02:04:50] caught up because when you’re young, when I was in first year, you can get caught up in university and things, but as I got older, I think [02:04:55] they were important things in life. My dad reiterates to me, you know, you’ve done all the successful. No, we’re just gonna, [02:05:00] you know, my mum as well. My mom’s are always six to a bag, which won’t like me saying this, but she’ll freeze milk, [02:05:05] you know, you know, my parents doing okay, but because it’s, you know, we can’t waste food. [02:05:10] And these are important, right? You just you can’t just waste life, not be grateful [02:05:15] for little things and recycle clothes and do your part for the community. These things are important. [02:05:20] So I think, yeah, my dad especially makes sure that I stay on the straight [02:05:25] and narrow.

Payman Langroudi: That’s nice. My buddy. Yeah. Fantasy dinner party, three guests. Who you got. [02:05:30]

Shyun Patel: First I’m going to say Sam Altman. [02:05:35] Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think we like him. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Would you like the product?

Shyun Patel: I like [02:05:40] the product, but I want to know, like I said, what mine take what? What mind? Um, [02:05:45] you know.

Payman Langroudi: Y Combinator.

Shyun Patel: Yes yes yes yes [02:05:50] yes. And just talk to him about his story, how [02:05:55] he thinks, how he got to where he is and just how he sees the future going. Because I think [02:06:00] AI is really shaping not just like things, but education and how we process education, information, [02:06:05] everything.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shyun Patel: Uh, then second to that. Okay. [02:06:10] So let’s take Sam Altman as someone that’s going to represent my future, someone that’s going to represent [02:06:15] my past. I’d say someone like, uh, Marcus Aurelius, right?

Payman Langroudi: The stoic. [02:06:20]

Shyun Patel: Yeah, the stoic principles of life. And one thing, Marcus, I like touching on the, [02:06:25] the last point about my dad is that he had a slave. Have you heard this? Yeah. The slave that he used [02:06:30] to ride on his chariot. And, he was a Roman emperor. Everyone used to like, you know, his head get massive and, you know, like [02:06:35] hubris. You know, the thing that makes you great could also kill you. And he had a slave that sit behind him in his chariot, and [02:06:40] he’d whisper to him, um, you’re just a man. You’re just a man. And I [02:06:45] quite like that. And I think, you know, sometimes just you’ve got to realise, you know, you just had to be yourself. [02:06:50] But I’m just a just a kid, you know, I’m just figuring it out. I’m not. Nothing more. Nothing less good on the stream. [02:06:55] No, no.

Payman Langroudi: You were a popular kid for a couple of days after the essay.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, but, you know, you [02:07:00] know what? It’s just my friends are the same friends. You know, everyone. Everyone. Everyone can be friends. Um. [02:07:05]

Payman Langroudi: And who’s the third?

Shyun Patel: The third would be da [02:07:10] Vinci. Oh, yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Just the, the different things he invented.

Shyun Patel: Just [02:07:15] just I don’t like being put in a box. And, you know, he did anatomy and art and science, and I thought [02:07:20] he pushed limits on all sides and I thought someone else could do it. Why couldn’t I do it? How [02:07:25] did he balance the three? And, uh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So, you know, since since you are [02:07:30] at that age and, you know, we had this series going on future Leaders [02:07:35] kind of series. Nice. Three years time. If everything went [02:07:40] perfectly for you, what would it look like? Or if it a bit longer? Five [02:07:45] years time.

Shyun Patel: Five years time? No, I don’t [02:07:50] want to jump too far to think, but I, I would hope that I’m, you know, still [02:07:55] working five six days. I. Would [02:08:00] hope to have a couple clinics at that point [02:08:05] and just enjoying life, but finding the understanding that I’m content where [02:08:10] I’m at and that everything I’m doing is for the right reasons and not [02:08:15] because I’m chasing some unattainable goal and getting lost in it. So yeah, I think enjoying [02:08:20] dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Clinics.

Shyun Patel: Three. We’ll [02:08:25] see. Maybe I’ll leave my. I’ll probably eat my words. Who knows? [02:08:30] I’ll have some clarity and go down a different route. But yeah, that’s I think.

Payman Langroudi: Are you Underpromising and Overdelivering? Is [02:08:35] that is that the.

Shyun Patel: I’m being extremely delusional based off nothing. So we’ll see. Uh, [02:08:40] not.

Payman Langroudi: That it’s a joke to have two clinics in five years out. Not that it’s a joke, but I just feel like you’re [02:08:45] going to be accelerated a little bit.

Shyun Patel: We’ll have to see. You know, I’ll have to believe it for it to happen. [02:08:50]

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Well, I’ve had a really interesting time.

Shyun Patel: Talking to you. I really appreciate the opportunity.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been an [02:08:55] easy, easy conversation.

Shyun Patel: It’s been a good two hours.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [02:09:00] really been simple. I really appreciate I learned a lot my buddy. I learned a lot. Thank you.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. [02:09:05] Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure you tune in for future episodes. Hit subscribe [02:09:10] in iTunes or Google Play or whatever platform it is. And [02:09:15] you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you would, um, give.

Payman Langroudi: Us a six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star [02:09:20] rating. That’s what I always leave my Uber driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks [02:09:25] a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.

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[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. [00:00:40] The podcast where you get to go one on one [00:00:45] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Adrian Dray and Kal Harron, both [00:01:00] from stack onto the podcast. Good to have you guys, man.

Adrian Dray: Thanks ever so much. It’s [00:01:05] good to be here.

Kautham Haran: Thanks for having us.

Payman Langroudi: Adrian was on a previous episode. I can’t remember [00:01:10] which number that was, but, um, you can just search in the Dental Leaders, um, feed [00:01:15] and find that long, brilliant episode. I love that episode with Prav. Yeah. [00:01:20] Um. I’ve never been on an episode of Dental. Leaders. [00:01:25] But good to have you tell me, both of you, how did you find k stack [00:01:30] or how did K stack find you?

Kautham Haran: Adrian I think your journey with stack starts a lot longer [00:01:35] than mine. So yeah, probably best to start with you.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, I think, I think to give some context, [00:01:40] you know, the, the question is why did you [00:01:45] give up a very comfortable, well-paying job in banking [00:01:50] to join a US company brand new to the UK in [00:01:55] dentistry that is known for really disliking change, right? [00:02:00] I think that’s the the thing because it seems on paper madness [00:02:05] and a massive gamble and, and it was and it, it the decision happened [00:02:10] in around 2023. But actually [00:02:15] where this started brewing happened when I came out of hospital with [00:02:20] Covid in 2021. So somewhere in the Dental community, um, [00:02:25] I got Covid really bad hospital bad. You’re going to die tonight bad. Um, [00:02:30] and my joke is spoiler alert, I didn’t, you know, but the, the, [00:02:35] the, um, uh, but the thing the reality was, is that [00:02:40] I had six months previous to that had given up my job at my dentist, thrown [00:02:45] all of my savings into setting up.

Payman Langroudi: A data, data.

Adrian Dray: Data protection.

Payman Langroudi: Officer. Yeah. [00:02:50] My dentist.

Adrian Dray: Yeah. And I thought, I’m going to help others practices and smaller groups. And I put, I moved house [00:02:55] and I put all of my investment, I had all of this savings and invested [00:03:00] into the business and all of this, uh, uh, business [00:03:05] lined up. And then after I came out of Covid in hospital, I’m in a wheelchair [00:03:10] and I can’t like, I can’t talk for more than ten minutes needing, needing to lie down [00:03:15] because my lungs are shot.

Payman Langroudi: They put you on a ventilator.

Adrian Dray: I was so close. They basically washed me down and said, either [00:03:20] going into ventilator tonight or you’re dying, right? It was sort of black and white as that. [00:03:25] So I thought, look, I want to I want to stay in dentistry. I can’t do GDPR. [00:03:30] Is there something else that I can do? And I was looking at the software scene, and I was noticing [00:03:35] there was a lot of talk about CRMs and lead management systems, but there wasn’t much that was out [00:03:40] there. And I found one which was a white label product. Now you [00:03:45] and I know what white label it is, and I realised not a lot in dentistry. No, it’s where you’ve got a [00:03:50] off.

Payman Langroudi: The shelf.

Adrian Dray: Off the shelf products, which you can then put a wrapper on where you can say [00:03:55] Adrian Dres lead management system or whatever it might be, but it’s the same system that’s being [00:04:00] used by someone else in veterinary or estate agents or whatever it might be. So [00:04:05] I thought, well, what I’ll do is I’ll, I’ll start building on this and help the community. [00:04:10] And I was got quite far with it. And then an individual in dentistry [00:04:15] who’s got a bit of a community came, came and found out about it and came to me and goes, I [00:04:20] want to get in on this. I want to help you push this out. And I was like, okay, yeah. Thank you. That sounds [00:04:25] really good. We’re great to leverage your your community. And it was just relentless day after day when you bring it out, when you [00:04:30] bring it out. And like, I nearly died like a few weeks ago, you know, can you just give me a chance? [00:04:35] And it got to the point where he wore me down so much, right? It became this sort of like, friend, [00:04:40] I’ll help you. Um, and then just went to this bully real bullish. And I [00:04:45] just got, you know what, here’s the name of the system. You take it, you do what you want. And [00:04:50] he grew a business out of it. And this software was going everywhere. As [00:04:55] more and more people were signing up, I’m watching my bank balance just come down and down and down. Right?

Payman Langroudi: What [00:05:00] was the emotion?

Adrian Dray: I was very angry at the time.

Payman Langroudi: Angry [00:05:05] at yourself. Because you gave him, I gave him.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, [00:05:10] I think I probably should have stood up for myself more, more. Um, and [00:05:15] I thought, this is this is awful. And I remember the end of that year, I was looking at my bank account. [00:05:20] I had like nothing in there. And like, this is going to really tough. Thankfully, I was living with my [00:05:25] mum at the time. And then all of a sudden, uh, this company out in the US who [00:05:30] I’d met previously wanted me to be their spokesperson because now I can talk once, [00:05:35] be their spokesperson on podcasts. I’ve talked about data security and they’re going to pay me like three grand a month.

Payman Langroudi: Just [00:05:40] cares that.

Adrian Dray: It wasn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, this wasn’t.

Adrian Dray: Exactly on its competitors.

Payman Langroudi: Um. [00:05:45]

Adrian Dray: And, uh, and then we just did this and.

Payman Langroudi: They found you.

Adrian Dray: They found me, they paid. I didn’t [00:05:50] go on one podcast, not one, right? They just they never set them up. Um and [00:05:55] but that helped me just to get back on my feet. And then I went, then I went into banking. Right. And I just kept my foot in [00:06:00] dentistry, kept my foot in dentistry. But I, I see in the groups and I saw then that [00:06:05] this product that was being used, this white label product, people were finding out it was white [00:06:10] labelled. And then they’re saying, well, why aren’t we just going straight to the company and just do it ourselves, [00:06:15] which they started to do. So the individual who sort of ripped off this idea, um, [00:06:20] he then scrambled, had to build his own product. And it was at that time I [00:06:25] realised, I know that building your own product is really hard. It’s [00:06:30] really tough to get it right. You can say made for dentists by dentists all the livelong [00:06:35] day. But if it doesn’t work right and it’s not continuously innovated, it’s there.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:06:40] you feel like you dodged a bullet in a way, because.

Adrian Dray: I feel like I dodged and learned a massive lesson that [00:06:45] if I did want to get into the software game, and it’s even makes even more sense now, [00:06:50] AI is the way it is that you need to have a big team behind you. [00:06:55] There has to be a huge vision that’s there because you know we have all something in common. [00:07:00] We deeply love dentistry. We love helping dental practice owners in [00:07:05] multiple ways. Some ways, I know Payman that you have done that. No one knows, right? Secretly have helped people [00:07:10] and I’ve done the same, done the same thing. And you, you [00:07:15] need to make sure that what you are bringing in, maybe it won’t be so great to begin with, but you’re not [00:07:20] you’re not putting people in a really bad position and you are really [00:07:25] fighting for and championing them. So now comes to the care stack bit in [00:07:30] 2022, I think it was late [00:07:35] 2022. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The post Covid boom, the post-COVID boom.

Adrian Dray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What a beautiful [00:07:40] era.

Adrian Dray: Actually, it’s 2023 now. I’m thinking of it. Yeah. It was. [00:07:45] When did you join us?

Kautham Haran: 2020 424 yeah.

Adrian Dray: It was 2023. So [00:07:50] 2023, I, um, I get this message from a mutual friend, a mutual, [00:07:55] a mutual friend, someone from the US who said there’s a, there’s a VP from [00:08:00] Straumann and the CEO of a cloud based practice management [00:08:05] system that’s coming to the UK are going to be in London on the weekend, and [00:08:10] the CEO wants ten dentists to be around a table to [00:08:15] show them this product, this cloud based practice management system. And [00:08:20] can you help me get those ten dentists? I’ll make it worth your while. And I said, [00:08:25] don’t pay me. I just want to be in the room. I want to be in the room. Right. [00:08:30] Um, because I have my background being a data protection [00:08:35] officer at my dentist, I’ve seen all these software providers, right, come to me [00:08:40] and they go, oh, we’re 100% GDPR compliant. You know, it’s like not even the ICO is 100% [00:08:45] GDPR compliant. Right? So I’m just, I’m used to all these kind of crappy answers and stuff. Like, I want to see [00:08:50] what these guys have got. I was, I was just intrigued by it. Yeah. And I sat inside their presentation [00:08:55] and I watched the faces of the other, the other dentists around the table. [00:09:00] And they were really intrigued. And I thought, there’s something here.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:09:05] so and did you get out of your compliance brain because, okay, compliance [00:09:10] is 1/20 of the product. Yeah. At that point, did you start thinking [00:09:15] product rather than how compliant is this product?

Adrian Dray: It’s a very good question [00:09:20] because my initial thought was, if I’m going to monetise this relationship, [00:09:25] I might be able to help with their GDPR position. When I saw that this this product [00:09:30] and the features it has available could help grow practices, well, [00:09:35] compliance and growth are like they repel each other, right? So [00:09:40] I’m like, if I’m going to help them, the GDPR bit is going right to one side, right. And I’m [00:09:45] just going to look at the growth side of things. Um, and that was [00:09:50] certainly that is the bit that inspired me. So I said to Abby, the CEO, and [00:09:55] for anyone who’s met Abby, he is a peculiar character. He’s a lovely [00:10:00] bloke. Um, uh, but he’s.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of.

Adrian Dray: Just very. And you never forget [00:10:05] the first time you meet Abby. Yeah. Right. Um, and we ended up having. We haven’t having [00:10:10] having a double shot of Laphroaig right at the end of this meeting. And I remember him [00:10:15] just putting his hand on my shoulder. He goes, Adrian, I think we’re going to be working with each other somehow if we [00:10:20] launch this in the UK. So I did about ten months worth of um, consultancy [00:10:25] with them for free. Right. Just to see how far they would get. And [00:10:30] that’s, that’s, that’s when, that’s when we launched, we took our first practices live and, uh, [00:10:35] it was crazy. There were moments where I just thought, why on earth [00:10:40] did I give up my comfortable, well-paying job in banking [00:10:45] because I was experiencing stressful moments [00:10:50] of a Start-Up, which I’ve never been in. I’ve never felt before. Um, [00:10:55] and we got through and, and those first three months, but it was clear. [00:11:00] It was clear at that point, I’m more on the demand generation, the creative [00:11:05] side. I am not good at operations. I can I can autosum [00:11:10] in Excel. That’s the limit of my Excel abilities.

Kautham Haran: Considering [00:11:15] you called it Autosum, I can tell. Is it not called that? What’s it called? It’s just called [00:11:20] sum. Is it a proper.

Payman Langroudi: Proper techie.

Kautham Haran: There.

Adrian Dray: Um, and then, you know, enters [00:11:25] enters Cal in into this as we’re starting to build our name, we’re starting to bring practices [00:11:30] on. And, you know, we lose one of our very first practices is, oh my goodness, what’s going on? [00:11:35] Um, and then we, we hear about, we hear about Cal. So we [00:11:40] hear about Cal working at one of the practices, one of the early practices that we take on, and this is early [00:11:45] 2020 for.

Payman Langroudi: Working at the practice.

Kautham Haran: Well, I was it was actually a friend’s practice. So [00:11:50] two of my they were my, you know, my best man at my wedding. They’re both, um, [00:11:55] dentists. They both have their own practices in London and um, I’ve, I’ve [00:12:00] listened to them talk about teeth since I think I was about 13 years old. You can imagine that dinner, there’s three of us [00:12:05] there and all they’re talking about is teeth because they’re dentists, they love their passion. And that’s what they’re that’s what they’re into. Me, [00:12:10] myself, I’ve got a fintech background. So straight out of university, co-founded a [00:12:15] peer to peer invoice finance company. Um, I did that for about eight years. So I’ve always been in that [00:12:20] Start-Up mode, not really corporate and understanding it from a kind of different viewpoint. [00:12:25] What did you study? I did maths and economics at university. We spun out of the [00:12:30] University of Warwick’s incubator program, so even they had belief in our business and things like that. [00:12:35] So.

Payman Langroudi: So in university you started this.

Kautham Haran: So in our final year, so didn’t do the kind of traditional [00:12:40] route that lots of people off our course normally do going into banking and those kind of things. So slightly different and enjoyed [00:12:45] that start up thrill. And I think, you know, like many dentists and business [00:12:50] owners here, you know, having your own Start-Up and doing it in that manner, the lows [00:12:55] are incredibly low, the highs are high. But bloody hell, when you’re sat there thinking, how am I going to pay staff? [00:13:00] And you know, those staff have mortgages, rent and stuff like this. You really do realise, you know [00:13:05] what struggle is in those kind of moments. I mean, obviously there’s much bigger struggles than life, but from a [00:13:10] business standpoint, I think that really taught me a lot. And then, you know, after I left that Start-Up [00:13:15] was looking to, you know, help my friends, you know, who was just set up his practice. [00:13:20] And I thought, I’ve got a bit of an ops head, as Adrian was saying, and I know these guys are good [00:13:25] clinically, but anything I could do to kind of help them. And in that time, I think he [00:13:30] was the first customer of voice tech, I think at the time.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, it must be the fifth, [00:13:35] fifth practice. Yeah.

Kautham Haran: And I remember going and being sitting [00:13:40] in his practice and learning it before, uh, deep Patel. Doctor Patel, I [00:13:45] guess in one Dental. So he’s got, uh, he’s just opened up his second practice, actually in Kensington. So shout out to [00:13:50] deep. He’s doing very well. And, um, when I, you know, typically [00:13:55] the process is someone from Csat comes down, teaches you how to use the software and all of that. Before they’d sent someone [00:14:00] down there, I quite figured out what we needed to, to be done and then met the third [00:14:05] of our trio, Shamanth, who’s kind of head of UK product at the time now our head of customer success. [00:14:10] And I said, oh, interesting. And then I think at that point.

Adrian Dray: I get a couple of calls, right? [00:14:15] So I get a call from from Kirsty, uh, who heads up our training now.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your official [00:14:20] title?

Adrian Dray: Who knows? Abbey’s butler. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Are you like country [00:14:25] manager? Are you that.

Adrian Dray: No no no no, I’m well, officially I’m the director of [00:14:30] partnerships. I think I direct probably about one partnership.

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Adrian Dray: I’m director of demand [00:14:35] generation. I think.

Payman Langroudi: What’s you don’t have an official.

Adrian Dray: I kind of just fit in basically. [00:14:40] Um, uh, but yeah, I, I don’t, I’m the, what’s actually really lovely just to jump, [00:14:45] just sign on, on the conversation we’re having with Cal. But, uh, we’ve had like [00:14:50] general managers, country managers in, in our team, it hasn’t really worked out well. [00:14:55] And we found that actually having this trio of Cal Shamanth and I [00:15:00] works really well and we’ve become like brothers.

Payman Langroudi: But what is that implementation? [00:15:05] Yeah, marketing.

Adrian Dray: Marketing.

Payman Langroudi: And operations.

Adrian Dray: Um, customer success. [00:15:10]

Kautham Haran: Customer before he was product. Now it’s customer success. So it’s kind of the chain kind [00:15:15] of goes from Adrian to myself to Charlotte. Yeah. So between the three of us, I think as Adrian’s [00:15:20] mentioned, it’s, it’s a peculiar situation. I don’t think you often see a trio like us without someone [00:15:25] necessarily on top of us. Um, but I think exactly what you’ve said.

Adrian Dray: It has [00:15:30] radical, radical candour there. And I think actually that’s probably what’s played in quite well because at [00:15:35] this time, right. This is early.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re not his boss?

Adrian Dray: No, no, no.

Payman Langroudi: You feel like you’re equals? Yes. And [00:15:40] the other guys? Yes.

Adrian Dray: Yeah. For sure.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And there is no. No one above you.

Kautham Haran: Yeah. I think none [00:15:45] of us want the role. I think as well, that’s probably also all of us are [00:15:50] out there.

Payman Langroudi: There’s an opening there for someone.

Adrian Dray: Without.

Payman Langroudi: Responsibility.

Adrian Dray: Yeah I [00:15:55] think.

Payman Langroudi: Can I, can I, can I get back to you? What’s something that interests me, right, is, you know, the [00:16:00] notion of your biggest strength is your biggest weakness also.

Adrian Dray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That, [00:16:05] you know, the way you gave up your software.

Adrian Dray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You could call that your biggest [00:16:10] weakness in a way, because, you know, it was an outcome you didn’t enjoy. But [00:16:15] the way that you said, I’ll work for free or I’ll come, I’ll turn up to this meeting. You don’t need to pay me. It’s [00:16:20] a similar, similar skill, similar sort of trait. And that’s one of the biggest [00:16:25] strengths someone can have to say, I’m so excited about something. Don’t even pay me, you know, [00:16:30] and you know, the what works in life for you is, is going to be [00:16:35] a combination of the good stuff that comes out of your biggest strength. [00:16:40] And, and the bad stuff that comes out of your biggest strength.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, I’ve probably become a little bit wiser [00:16:45] to it now. And it actually all comes down to.

Payman Langroudi: Harder, harder.

Adrian Dray: Harder. Yeah. Um, [00:16:50] but I think that it comes down for me having a real interest in the etymology or [00:16:55] the history of the word opportunity. So opportunity is, is, comes [00:17:00] from two Latin words and it goes right back to, uh, Mediterranean [00:17:05] maritime situation where you’ve got this old vessel that’s just on [00:17:10] the flat water. Maybe it’s just come out of a horrible storm. All the sailors [00:17:15] have got scurvy. Whatever it is, they just want to go home, right? They just want to go home. And home for [00:17:20] one. Might be just seeing these family. Home for another is like going to the tavern and having a knees up, right? Home [00:17:25] for the captain is like, let’s get this flipping cargo off so I can get paid. Yeah, [00:17:30] yeah. Right. So there’s, there’s always this thing of like, I need to get, get home. So what [00:17:35] would happen? Back in those times? I didn’t have any motors. Of course they’re relying on the trade winds. And [00:17:40] if you can just picture the scene where you’ve got this old vessel with [00:17:45] really upset and discouraged sailors who are on this flat water, who just want to go home brews [00:17:50] and bash the pieces. They start, they start feeling a wind, [00:17:55] right? That’s coming through. They don’t know if that’s the next storm or whether that’s going to be the trade wind. So [00:18:00] the navigator would say something like Tempest Opportuneness and Tempest [00:18:05] Opportuneness means well, actually look at opportunities. Two words OP means [00:18:10] going towards and port means port or harbour. So he’s effectively saying [00:18:15] this is the moment, this is the wind that will take us home.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe, maybe [00:18:20] right.

Adrian Dray: But the thing is, is that the navigator, right? Who’s calling that? He’s got [00:18:25] a big responsibility. He’s like, right, let the flipping sails down. Now this is the this is the wind that will [00:18:30] take us home. Yeah. And so when I have these moments that come up, I’ve [00:18:35] probably become a bit of a sharper navigator to think, yes, this is the [00:18:40] opportunity here, and that you have to be in the situation where you’re [00:18:45] doing, which creates momentum, which then helps you catch that [00:18:50] opportunity. So you’re right. I saw an opportunity there [00:18:55] when I got out of out of Covid hospital, and it didn’t go [00:19:00] my way, so to speak, but it certainly helped me realise [00:19:05] a much greater opportunity that’s here. And I think also the way that we recognise [00:19:10] hiring cow. So just go back to the second half of that story. I get [00:19:15] a phone call from Kirsty who’s saying I won’t do Kirsty Scottish accent because you’ll [00:19:20] kill me. Um, but she’s basically saying this guy cow is. He’s totally getting care [00:19:25] stack. He’s like a wizard with it. Shamanth calls me, he’s like, this guy’s great. I’m [00:19:30] with Abbey in London and I was talking to Abbey. It’s like, let’s let’s [00:19:35] meet him. Let’s meet him. So we’re at the Cinnamon Club. Um, you know, in town. Yeah. Indian [00:19:40] place. And it’s got little, little cocktail bar downstairs, and, uh, we arranged to meet Cao [00:19:45] Cao comes down and. And, uh, we get him a drink, and [00:19:50] it’s his first time. First time meeting Abbey as well. Um, but Abbey had a drink, so he was, [00:19:55] he was a bit more loosened up compared to when I first met him. Um, and I [00:20:00] think within 15 minutes we decided we want to hire Cao. Right.

Kautham Haran: Uh, [00:20:05] do you know what I’ve actually heard? I’ve heard that you’d made that decision earlier that day because you went to demo. [00:20:10] My other, uh, best man obeyed who runs W Dental um, in Twickenham [00:20:15] and now in Tooting. He had told me that when you had gone to see him, that you guys had potentially made the decision [00:20:20] to hire. And I thought, bloody hell, why didn’t you tell me that before I. Asked [00:20:25] for a bit more if I if I’d known that was going to be the case. [00:20:30]

Adrian Dray: That’s why we didn’t tell you. But but then, you know, Cal, [00:20:35] and we we said, look, we we’re not gonna we’re not gonna put you in the role of director straight away. Um, [00:20:40] but we’re going to just see how you sort of, you know, grapple [00:20:45] with this roller coaster that we have at the moment with a new product and we’re realising things that [00:20:50] are not working the way it should do for a UK business and all this kind of stuff. Um, but [00:20:55] there was the foundation of that absolute radical transparency [00:21:00] that, that we, that we were developing in those early days, which have even [00:21:05] with everything else, which may be chaotic at times. That’s our anchor, right? The [00:21:10] three of us with Shamanth as well. Um, to just be ever so [00:21:15] up front with each other. And if there’s a moment of ego, you, [00:21:20] you got to leave the room. And I mean, often I’m told go to [00:21:25] Stockholm, right? Go to go on holiday. Chill out for a couple of days, then come back and [00:21:30] I feel a little bit better. But yeah, but that’s um, if you don’t mind me [00:21:35] hijacking the second half of your story.

Kautham Haran: I do think, I think at that [00:21:40] time, probably when I was helping my friend out, I was looking for, you know, different roles and trying to see what kind of fits, I think with [00:21:45] care Stack when it came along, you know, when you’re young, you can do a Start-Up with [00:21:50] quite low risk. I think you don’t necessarily have a family, those kind of other things. As you get a bit older, [00:21:55] you have to take those risks on, um, and make that decision. But with Care Stack, I think the way it was, [00:22:00] it’s an established company launching a new market. It’s effectively the best of both. You can [00:22:05] kind of have your fast, agile hats on to try and change things almost daily, [00:22:10] weekly, which I tell you my team hate because of how fast I want to iterate and make sure [00:22:15] things are better. But then you’ve also got a bit more security in the company itself, because you can see what it’s done, where it’s [00:22:20] going.

Payman Langroudi: There’s not going to be a cash crisis the day after tomorrow.

Kautham Haran: Exactly that. So I think naturally, in my journey of where [00:22:25] I was, I think guess that came at a perfect opportunity. And for me then, you know, [00:22:30] when you’re saying about ego, I think I personally had a bit of an ego that there’s no way I’m not going [00:22:35] to make this work because how rare is it to find that kind of opportunity where those things align? So in [00:22:40] my head, it was quite clear what I wanted to do and how we would make this work. [00:22:45] And I think also naturally, I think when I first spoke to you, Adrian, I could see between yourself and Shamanth Shamanth [00:22:50] being more technical yourself.

Adrian Dray: Obviously not.

Kautham Haran: I could see myself fitting [00:22:55] directly in the middle, and I think that was the first thing I noticed within about ten, 15 minutes of talking to you. And [00:23:00] I think then, you know, some things are meant to be, so to speak, and I think it did [00:23:05] work well.

Payman Langroudi: And I think, look, considering how, you know, it wasn’t very long, long ago [00:23:10] when all this happened. Right. What did you say? 22, 23?

Adrian Dray: Uh, when we hired him.

Kautham Haran: 2024 [00:23:15] yeah, I’ve been with.

Adrian Dray: The company officially as an employed person [00:23:20] for two years. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s amazing because like, look, if Kiyosaki has only been around 2 or 3 [00:23:25] years. It feels like it’s been around a lot longer than that. Yeah. And that well done by, you [00:23:30] know, getting into people’s heads in a way, um, with, with the messaging [00:23:35] and then you’ve got the product itself. What kind of, I don’t understand [00:23:40] about the amount of effort that [00:23:45] Abbey is putting into the UK is that it’s a massive change, [00:23:50] right? You’ve got regulatory differences, you’ve got insurance differences, you’ve got differences. Yeah. [00:23:55] And the market size of the UK is like the same as Oregon. Yeah. [00:24:00] Or something. So is there an imperative that’s like is, [00:24:05] is breaking through the UK to do with more than the [00:24:10] income that the UK will bring.

Adrian Dray: I it’s a very good question [00:24:15] and I think you probably put it in the best, best way that I’ve ever, ever heard of it because it doesn’t make [00:24:20] on paper. It doesn’t make sense. Right.

Payman Langroudi: Well, the amount of, of, of input [00:24:25] from America, you know, it’s a lot.

Kautham Haran: Yeah, absolutely. The size of the markets. Yeah. The difference in the size [00:24:30] is huge.

Adrian Dray: And there’s like 80 plus practice management systems that you can choose from in the US. Right. [00:24:35] Right. In the in the UK is about 12.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Adrian Dray: Right. Maybe 14. [00:24:40] Um so the question comes down to why [00:24:45] on earth haven’t other US systems tried to come to the UK and why [00:24:50] did castac. Right. That’s, that’s the thing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. With such force.

Adrian Dray: With such force. [00:24:55] The the Henry Shine one have tried to bring [00:25:00] in a. Before they purchased Dentali did try to bring in a cloud based [00:25:05] system. Um and it didn’t work out for them for lots of different reasons. [00:25:10] I think from what I’ve heard, one of the big reasons is because of the development [00:25:15] required around the NHS side of things, which we know is difficult. Yeah. Um, if I got that [00:25:20] wrong, please don’t send me a cease and desist.

Payman Langroudi: So Dental is native [00:25:25] UK, right? So yeah, so NHS is.

Adrian Dray: Yeah. Um James um I’ve seen [00:25:30] him from afar. But yeah, the founder is I think, I believe he’s his dad is a dentist and they, [00:25:35] they, they built that from which is incredible journey. I mean I’ve got, I give him a lot of Dental.

Payman Langroudi: He hasn’t got a US [00:25:40] presence.

Adrian Dray: No. I think there’s Canada and Australia now. They’re they’re [00:25:45] moving. Interesting. Yeah. Um so they, you know, there, there has been attempts to bring [00:25:50] in US systems here, but most of them have been, you know, home-grown. Um [00:25:55] and, you know, to their, to their credit, they’ve done [00:26:00] very well to navigate the bureaucracy around the NHS, which can be extremely [00:26:05] frustrating sometimes and good on them. And we realise how difficult that [00:26:10] was going going to be. And there was a lot of eating of humble pie. Payman. [00:26:15] Right. You’ve got hundreds of engineers and we’re thinking, how hard can it be? Right [00:26:20] and it and it is hard. So, um, but [00:26:25] we, we had already at the point where we became ready for NHS, which [00:26:30] what we say comfortably mid last year that we were ready [00:26:35] after beta practices, but by the time we got there, we’d already taken 10% [00:26:40] of the private only market in England. Well right. So there was [00:26:45] squat practices now have started to favour care stack, um for [00:26:50] lots of different reasons. And they’re doing really well with it. Um and then [00:26:55] when you have this kind of momentum, plus you’re building the team and we’re getting this sort [00:27:00] of notoriety that even though there’s 14 systems, when you look at, you know, dentists [00:27:05] for dentists and other Facebook groups, it’s usually care stack versus another [00:27:10] large name, right? So that’s even though we have probably got the least [00:27:15] number of practices compared to top five, we have got the most mental like monopoly. [00:27:20] Had we not been able to do that, I don’t think we would have been. We would still [00:27:25] be here. That’s my personal opinion. That’s not that’s not a statement on behalf of Care Stack.

Adrian Dray: But [00:27:30] but I realise that the the amount of momentum that we’ve had to pick up an investment [00:27:35] that’s there. Now, to answer the second part of your question, what’s the kind [00:27:40] of the bigger plan or is there a bigger plan? You see, the, the one [00:27:45] thing that that Abby told me the first time I met him is that like, the biggest mistake you can make [00:27:50] is thinking that care Stack is just a practice management system company. You see a lot [00:27:55] of the big companies in the world, for example, Henry Schein have started started with distribution. [00:28:00] They’re a cradle to grave organisation. They started with distribution and now [00:28:05] they’ve gone into everything else. You can buy and sell your practice through Henry Schein. You can [00:28:10] buy technology products and this kind of stuff. We all know the importance of data now. [00:28:15] So Really starting off from a software perspective, particularly in this new technological [00:28:20] era that we’re in, allows an organisation like ours [00:28:25] to move into those other areas. So for example, we have telephony. Now we [00:28:30] have other arms like payment gateways and other offerings [00:28:35] which are now being grown in the US that potentially might come here in the UK. [00:28:40] Some of them interact with the PMS, some of them not [00:28:45] so much. Right. But it means that you start from this technology foundation [00:28:50] and we we’re not thinking, oh, how, how are we going to what are we going to like in the next couple of years? We’re thinking [00:28:55] about what we look like in the next 15, 25, 50 years. And, and [00:29:00] having that technology cornerstone puts you in a much better, much better [00:29:05] position because you come from a position of data.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So look, I mean, sacs known [00:29:10] for having a lot of features, right? And you know what? You you must know in software, [00:29:15] there must be a name for the hassle of switching platforms.

Kautham Haran: Yeah. Change management. [00:29:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So. So the last thing a dentist wants is to have eight different software’s to, [00:29:25] to manage. And stack has a bunch of it within it. Right. But that doesn’t answer [00:29:30] my question at all. Maybe you’re not aware of what’s the reason that [00:29:35] the company in the US would put so much resource into one market [00:29:40] as small as the UK? Maybe. Don’t know.

Adrian Dray: Oh yeah. Sorry, I thought I did answer [00:29:45] that. I think we got to remember that we’ve got, um, one of our [00:29:50] largest minority shareholders is Straumann as well. Okay. So you know, [00:29:55] there is there has been interest that is there because Straumann is very big [00:30:00] internationally, but particularly in the UK as well. Um, and [00:30:05] what we recognised is that with a lot of the practice management systems [00:30:10] that are available in the UK, not many of them. In fact, [00:30:15] I don’t think any of them have been purpose built for DSOs, for Dental groups. [00:30:20] Csec has. So when you’re able to provide [00:30:25] that as a choice, as an offering to Dental groups, which means that no longer [00:30:30] are they dealing with their systems across their estate and having to make changes on an individual [00:30:35] basis that now they can add add a NHS contract in minutes, rather [00:30:40] than it taking hours or sometimes weeks asking someone else to. They need to update their [00:30:45] codes across the whole group. They want to change their pricing. They want [00:30:50] to do certain campaigns for pockets of the estate. They can do this super quickly. [00:30:55] And also the reporting across the group is also super, super [00:31:00] easy.

Payman Langroudi: The dashboards makes it obvious the number of sites and all of that.

Adrian Dray: Yeah. I [00:31:05] mean, you’re probably going to correct everything I said.

Kautham Haran: No. All the all the data points that you can get out [00:31:10] of care stack as well, not just necessarily reporting within the PMS itself, but also taking that out [00:31:15] and building your own data warehouses. All of that functionality is there. So I think that [00:31:20] is the core point for us. I think as a company, seeing that opportunity in [00:31:25] the UK market, considering what the other providers necessarily weren’t attacking vigorously [00:31:30] potentially, and also thinking probably with a level of naivety that, oh, [00:31:35] if we’ve got a UK English product, let’s say in the US, dentistry in the UK, [00:31:40] can we make it, you know, map it over? I think the two things combined probably then did attack that [00:31:45] and then we realised what are our strengths in the US. Exactly what Adrian saying and knowing all those things. There’s [00:31:50] definitely opportunity here. So I think that’s that’s core reason.

Payman Langroudi: And what’s the positioning in [00:31:55] the US like as far as you know, are they are they out of those 50 [00:32:00] systems as far as uptake, where’s care stack?

Adrian Dray: I don’t know where they are in its [00:32:05] specific positioning, but what I would say is how.

Payman Langroudi: Old is care stack in the US.

Adrian Dray: Ten [00:32:10] years.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, that’s all right. Yeah. It’s all very new.

Adrian Dray: Yeah. So they are there. I [00:32:15] think one of the fastest growing. Practice management systems that are out there. Um, and [00:32:20] again, it’s the same thing. It’s, it’s the ability to have all of your main core [00:32:25] features that typically you would pay another software provider, which doesn’t speak to, even though it says [00:32:30] it integrates, it doesn’t do it properly, but having it all in one place makes life a [00:32:35] lot easier.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s go through the top 3 or 4 things. So you said, um, you know, [00:32:40] DSOs reporting. Yeah. What else? What else? What else is under the bonnet that isn’t in [00:32:45] most other systems.

Kautham Haran: I mean, I think the core thing is the functionality to be able to, let’s say a DSO [00:32:50] is split across the country, as in you would have certain area or, you know, district managers, let’s [00:32:55] say someone’s responsible for northeast, that kind of splitting up of that data where you don’t see it all under one, and [00:33:00] you could group it all into those kind of things. Oh that’s cool. So from that side, I think, you know, giving those [00:33:05] DSOs that kind of opportunity to do so it’s interesting where I think the challenge for a PMS provider [00:33:10] is always, you’ve got management who look at one thing, but you’ve also got clinicians who only care [00:33:15] about another thing and front of house, who probably care about even less, or something completely [00:33:20] different, and catering to all of them in one place while doing all of those things. You know, how [00:33:25] do you make a complex system that gives the right person all the data points, but then let [00:33:30] it be easy enough that someone who doesn’t care is just there to do their job, doesn’t care about the running, doesn’t [00:33:35] do all those things. How do you make all of those things manage? So that’s a very delicate balance.

Kautham Haran: And then [00:33:40] creating the ecosystem, as Adrian saying, if everything plugs into each other, they all talk to each other. [00:33:45] You then work out from change management, management perspective. That’s kind of what our teams [00:33:50] do is to make sure, how do you give each of those individual teams a benefit? Because at the end of the day, why [00:33:55] else are they moving if you can’t show value? Value is shown in time or money, right? For [00:34:00] from our perspective. So even then, even though fine, you could do the reporting side [00:34:05] for the DSO. But if you then have the little bits working, that then all compounds up [00:34:10] because if you’re then saving front of house two hours per day, because they don’t need to look at typing [00:34:15] call recordings or something like this. They then that then gives that front of House member more time [00:34:20] to call up patients, fill the diary, and then that leads to more revenue elsewhere. So I think naturally, [00:34:25] just the way that case that’s been built kind of allows everything from the top [00:34:30] down. And even looking at it from bottom up both ways kind of functions in a good way.

Adrian Dray: So I think from a time and [00:34:35] money perspective as well, one of the features that we have got is the ability for a practice to [00:34:40] manage their own plan within the system. So what [00:34:45] the current behaviour is, is that you go to a third party, um, they deal with the [00:34:50] direct debits and the management, all this kind of thing. The problem for practices is a, [00:34:55] a cost because they’re having to pay a fee for that. The, the second [00:35:00] thing is being able to consolidate and understand the data and whether [00:35:05] this patient is still paying for that and they’ve just cancelled, but they’ve just booked in a hygiene like [00:35:10] that sort of thing. So with Care Stark’s own plans, the [00:35:15] patient can sign up in the chair as quickly as they sign [00:35:20] up for Netflix. And now the practice is able to understand [00:35:25] the usage of that plan. They can see whether the patient has cancelled. They can try again, [00:35:30] they can reach out, and they can have tailored plans to certain types [00:35:35] of situations. So you could have a minimum or essentials plan.

Payman Langroudi: We’re talking [00:35:40] about capitation, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Adrian Dray: Or you can have a specific plan that’s for implant patients, for [00:35:45] example, which is seen as a value a value add. But what you’re able to do [00:35:50] now is you’re able to see, I’m sorry, a be able to, to get people on [00:35:55] board at speed. And B, you’ve got a cost saving. So one of our practices [00:36:00] up in the north west, um, I won’t give his figures but they’re very, very [00:36:05] impressive figures. But from from a squat practice in under [00:36:10] a year, he was able to get 800 people. And he’s mostly Invisalign. Right. [00:36:15] 800 people onto a plan that he has built within care stack, you know, in like, yeah, [00:36:20] ten, 10 or 11 months. So that’s brilliant. And it’s so quick. They come in for [00:36:25] their Invisalign. They have an amazing experience. We’ve got, you know, general dentists here. We’ve got a hygienist [00:36:30] here. Can we put you on the plan. Absolutely done.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:36:35] the plus side is all this optionality um [00:36:40] all singing, all dancing plan this that and the other, [00:36:45] the downside as I’m understanding it is that introduces complication. [00:36:50] And so what’s the issue? Like does that mean onboarding [00:36:55] harder with it?

Kautham Haran: I think onboarding is probably one of the hardest things [00:37:00] when you’re looking at it, because in general, a practice management software is the one place where [00:37:05] you do everything from payments, booking appointments, online appointments, all the kind of different [00:37:10] things charting, treatment, planning, all the different functions within a dental practice get funnelled [00:37:15] through a practice management software. Now getting everyone [00:37:20] to I mean, it’s a it’s a mammoth thing, right? And I think one of the things that we’re quite [00:37:25] open with, with our customers is it’s not going to be easy. And it’s whether [00:37:30] those practices that we’re working with are ready for that challenge or whether their teams are, um, I’m [00:37:35] not sales, I’m ops. So I’m realistic on, on, on how these kind of things work and [00:37:40] navigating that when you could have, if you’ve got someone who’s been in that practice, who’s been there for 30 [00:37:45] years on one system, how do you get that person to kind of shift over and understand why they’re [00:37:50] in it? Why are they doing this? What’s the benefit to them? How do you then explain that benefit [00:37:55] to that person, but also keep the same benefit to management and other people within that practice? So [00:38:00] it’s getting I think for me it’s quite interesting because I always talk about this a lot that [00:38:05] from a customer standpoint, the teams that are the most aligned with that vision, within that [00:38:10] practice is equal from the owners all the way down.

Kautham Haran: They’re actually the ones that handle the change [00:38:15] the best. Whereas if people are just coming in and you know, they’re just there to do their job 9 to 5, [00:38:20] they’re going to give you headaches. And that’s, that’s, that’s always a given in change [00:38:25] management. And so our team are trained on those kind of things. How do you how do you deal with those kind of people? How do [00:38:30] you talk to those people who bring down and probably bring some negative energy within it when they’re not happy? [00:38:35] How do we deal with them? How do you give them that kind of bit of TLC, to be honest, to get [00:38:40] them to see, okay, I can do this. Maybe I’m not meant to learn everything [00:38:45] in a in a week and we can learn this over a staggered period. And for us, it’s that [00:38:50] understanding of people that’s actually more important because once you know your audience, you then tailor [00:38:55] it in that different way. And trust me, that wasn’t something we knew that comes from experience as we have, [00:39:00] you know, all the different dental practices we worked with made up of composition, all these different compositions. [00:39:05] Um, and then you learn what works, um, how you train, how you do these different things. [00:39:10] So complexity is the hard bit.

Adrian Dray: And also how to prepare our teams. You know, you, you imagine [00:39:15] that they, I mean, our guys KAOS team are warriors, [00:39:20] right? That blood, sweat and tears that they put.

Payman Langroudi: The engineers.

Adrian Dray: Know this is the implementation. [00:39:25]

Kautham Haran: The.

Adrian Dray: Implementation, you know, and and we’ve got I mean, for example. Shreya. [00:39:30] Right. Shreya she, uh, she was a receptionist, what, two years ago? [00:39:35] Yeah, yeah. In a dental practice. Um, Abby did a demo at the practice, was so impressed by [00:39:40] the questions that she was asking, took the owner to one side and said, I’d like to hire [00:39:45] her. Right. Do I have your permission? We had to wait a little bit, but Shreya has gone, um, [00:39:50] from from being a very good receptionist to now, you know, basically [00:39:55] one of cows number two, right? Lead implementation person and [00:40:00] is when you meet her, one of the most sweetest, kindest people [00:40:05] you’ve ever met and has been, but is able to put up with so much like challenging [00:40:10] conversations because it’s hard, right? You, you, you really invest in your client [00:40:15] and then you’ve got some someone who can be obnoxious or ignorant or [00:40:20] whatever saying, well, yeah, the button’s not in the place where I had it on. So and so, [00:40:25] you know, take my take my eyes, but don’t take my SOE. Right. And it’s difficult. [00:40:30] So we have to kind of build those, those teams as well that don’t lose their empathy, [00:40:35] but still have a very, very thick skin.

Kautham Haran: The level of resilience needed [00:40:40] for that is, is honestly, I think, incredibly underrated. I think when you’re looking at change [00:40:45] management people, humans are averse to change just naturally. Yeah. Right. And then trying [00:40:50] to get through, smile through it and do that is incredibly difficult. And I think it is testament to my [00:40:55] team, Shreya and the others as well in the team. I mean, we’ve got X implementation [00:41:00] team members who have implementation experience and they’ve never had a job like this. Really? And they’ve explicitly said that to [00:41:05] me. It’s not like implementation in any other company they’re used to. Potentially implementing one customer [00:41:10] at a time. Whereas in K stack, you’re implementing ten simultaneously [00:41:15] at different levels of the process or different stages. But also because we’re a Start-Up, that process [00:41:20] is constantly evolving. So if you imagine it’s not a linear thing, it’s two dimensional. And [00:41:25] that is incredibly difficult to to do. And I think it’s kudos to the team and probably [00:41:30] the ethos of, of k stack itself that, you know, when I interview, I tell all of [00:41:35] them, this is going to be difficult work if this. And I tell them, you know, I’m [00:41:40] quite honest and open, I don’t want to see them here within two years from when they join, because [00:41:45] for me, they should be learning from everything and they should be pushing themselves to do more and more [00:41:50] and more, and that’s what they’re in it for.

Kautham Haran: I think building them up in that way, gaining [00:41:55] the resilience, how to fastly spot problems, how to iterate for customers, put them at number one, [00:42:00] two, three, and four, and then themselves, I think, then puts them in a position that if they then went [00:42:05] on to do any other thing, it’s that Start-Up mentality that then they can then take on probably [00:42:10] learning that from my own experience, that it sets them up in the right way for them to tackle [00:42:15] their futures in dentistry or in any other field that they want to, because they’ve dealt with the [00:42:20] pressures of probably care stack. And, you know, we have demanding customers, but, you [00:42:25] know, internal ethos of us of ours rather is, you know, doing [00:42:30] more for the customer than they pay us for. And therefore that, you know, takes a lot out of you. [00:42:35] Um, but I would say, you know, it gets to that point where I think, and I’ve had these kind [00:42:40] of conversations with them, you need to enjoy that thrill. You need to enjoy that pain, [00:42:45] so to speak. It’s a bit, it’s a, it’s a bit weird to say.

Adrian Dray: It’s like, stop trying to hit me and hit me. Right? [00:42:50]

Kautham Haran: It’s that it takes, it takes that because I think, you know, dentistry is fast [00:42:55] paced. There’s very fine margins, and making sure that we’re [00:43:00] giving the most to these customers is the most important thing. One small error from [00:43:05] our side could lead to a huge loss in revenue for the customer. And it’s not okay to just [00:43:10] say, oh, sorry, you know, we should be seeking the highest standards internally [00:43:15] to make sure it reflects the standards that they’ve got with their, you know, if they’ve got private patients that [00:43:20] they’re charging, you know, quite a decent whack for, you know, treatment plans, it’s as [00:43:25] a PMS provider, do we deserve that business? Well, we need to and to show that [00:43:30] we need to have that level of care and attention to detail that mistakes don’t, you know, [00:43:35] don’t slip through. So kudos to the team. I think it’s not not easy for sure. [00:43:40]

Adrian Dray: And we’ve never we’ve never built teams out like this before. You know.

Payman Langroudi: How many people did you have in your own fintech? [00:43:45]

Kautham Haran: Uh, at its peak we had about 15. But then we developed systems [00:43:50] that then meant you could reduce the team size.

Payman Langroudi: So were you on the up side in that business too?

Kautham Haran: Yeah. [00:43:55] Same. But you know, in a Start-Up, you always end up wearing many hats. Probably. Why? When I joined, you [00:44:00] know, never done implementation before, but I knew that I tackled most of the things that I’ve tackled. [00:44:05] It’s been okay. And I thought building that’s the big thing for me that I’ve found [00:44:10] probably the most enjoyable. And what I’ve taken out the most from Care Stack is building teams. I think watching people like Shreya, [00:44:15] Fouad and the others, um, all kind of progress for me is that [00:44:20] kind of drives me now. I think building teams, you know, it’s that [00:44:25] ethos of if I go away or I’m not there, do they have the same standards that we’ve all set? [00:44:30] Probably from Abby to us to then the next level. And I think we’re all aligned from that [00:44:35] point. Because then if, Adrian, you went away for a couple of weeks, if I went away for a month. Then [00:44:40] other teams still doing the things to the same standard, which when [00:44:45] we first started, we know was never the case when we first joined Caius. So I think that’s [00:44:50] that’s.

Adrian Dray: Kudos to five day holiday in my first year.

Kautham Haran: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s a continuous evolution, [00:44:55] isn’t it? That the way that you you’re going to go forward for the next you’re saying 25 [00:45:00] years. Yeah. Yeah. That that running of a business. Um, what it’s [00:45:05] interesting to me is that, you know, of course, wanting to be something and actually executing [00:45:10] on that thing are two totally different emotions, two different skills, [00:45:15] right? I’m definitely you need one before the other. Yeah. We want to give back more than we’re [00:45:20] getting. Sure. Right. But as the number grows, particularly as the number of customers grows, [00:45:25] that becomes harder and harder and harder to pull off.

Kautham Haran: Yeah, I think [00:45:30] where we were, I think, Adrian, you would agree on this. We we sold so fast. And [00:45:35] you know, like you said, Payman about it sounds like we’ve been around for a lot longer than two, three years. Yeah. And [00:45:40] then our operations kind of had to catch up, if I’m being honest. And I think catching up while you’ve got [00:45:45] team members. Yeah. While they’re, you know, they’re used to, you know, they’re used to being in much larger organisations [00:45:50] where on process happens. That’s it for about three, four years. You know, the [00:45:55] red tape and everything to change something. Whereas for us, it’s if we’ve done something wrong with the customer, we’ve [00:46:00] learned from it. Okay, that changes tomorrow for every other customer.

Payman Langroudi: What surprised you the [00:46:05] most about dentists or dentistry or dental practices? Because [00:46:10] you had your friends, you kind of knew.

Kautham Haran: Um, [00:46:15] for me, I think from the dentist [00:46:20] standpoint, I do think not enough of them put emphasis on their teams, which [00:46:25] surprised me because I’ve seen it. For example, maybe I’m biased with maybe [00:46:30] some of the practices that I saw early. Um, and I think for me, investing [00:46:35] in people now, obviously I’m biased based on what I was saying earlier about that’s kind of been [00:46:40] my drive recently, but I do think having the people within [00:46:45] the practice who are aligning your vision, You know, I’ve seen some practice owners who kind [00:46:50] of just do their bit. They’re used to being clinicians and individual contributors. So they’re the [00:46:55] ones the backbone of the practice. But as a business model that then doesn’t necessarily let them scale. Some [00:47:00] of them don’t want to. Right. I’m not saying that, but there are others that are frustrated that their team aren’t [00:47:05] doing the same things or believing in it the same way they are, but they don’t have shares [00:47:10] in the business. Why should they? So what is it you’re giving to your team members to let them see the vision that [00:47:15] you have? What’s the trade off? You know, I use an example where it’s like, [00:47:20] you know, if you’re trying to motivate your team and trying to bring them, you know, if they hit certain targets, [00:47:25] do you take them to Nando’s or if they smash them, do you take them to Nobu? Right. Those kind [00:47:30] of differences is, does that come through and flow through to the teams all throughout, or is it just a job for them? [00:47:35] Because in my opinion, if it is just a job for them, um, for certain members within [00:47:40] the team, it’s difficult then for you to step away from it and to scale that. So I think [00:47:45] that’s definitely something that for me, I was more surprised at, I think, uh, when speaking [00:47:50] about it with some practice owners, I think there’s, they’ve never really seen it that way, [00:47:55] which I found quite interesting. Um, I think they’re more a.

Payman Langroudi: Component of that is career progression within a dental [00:48:00] practice. Some are very good at it, but some would rather have teams. I mean, you said I want [00:48:05] you not to be here in two years time. Some would rather have the kind of person who’s not [00:48:10] interested in progression. And and so that leads to that [00:48:15] same sort of atmosphere of, you know, why should I now move, you know, the kind of person who’s not [00:48:20] interested in progressing and if and if you employ for that. Yeah. You know, [00:48:25] I come across dentists, you must too, right. They want a nurse who’s just going to be there and be the nurse. [00:48:30]

Kautham Haran: That’s fine.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an easy life.

Kautham Haran: I think those are two different paths, though. And in my [00:48:35] opinion, if you’re going down that path where you’re trying to build a team with people who aren’t that interested [00:48:40] in improving themselves or just doing that, that kind of job, your systems should be in place [00:48:45] to make sure things are, for example, checklist based because these people aren’t going to sit there and have that attention to [00:48:50] detail because they don’t really care. So your business can go down two different paths. But from an operations standpoint, [00:48:55] you as the leaders within that practice, you should understand the profile of that individual when you’re hiring them, [00:49:00] because otherwise what you’ve got is that turnover where a front of house team member leaves, and then [00:49:05] you’re hiring locums, and then your costs are going up, but maybe correctly identifying [00:49:10] those individuals so that, okay, I can, if this person isn’t interested [00:49:15] in improving, how can I get it where I get a new person in quite relatively easily. Low barrier [00:49:20] to entry, they can pick up the job really easily. That means you need the systems in place to make [00:49:25] sure that person hits the ground running, and you don’t have a huge training period, which then is a drag on your operations [00:49:30] and your finances.

Adrian Dray: Also, I think if you if you’re going to hire either all of your team [00:49:35] or part of your team on that basis of, I just want a nurse to be a nurse, I just want a receptionist [00:49:40] to be a receptionist. Then don’t give too much weight of their to [00:49:45] their opinion for big changes. Mhm. Because that’s what we that we see. [00:49:50] And don’t get me wrong, I love Dental nurses, I love reception, I love all members of the team. [00:49:55] Right. But when you’re doing this big kind of change, you shouldn’t be thinking, oh, they’re going to kick off [00:50:00] and they’re going to get really upset. I was like, well, you’ve decided you just wanted them to fulfil that particular [00:50:05] role. And if they can’t deal with this change, you, you feel that in the short and maybe [00:50:10] most importantly, the long term, that’s going to have a material impact onto your business, [00:50:15] then you need to get people in that position that can do the job, but [00:50:20] that align with your vision and don’t give you hassle for it because what’s the point?

Payman Langroudi: Very [00:50:25] true, very true. Um, I want to move on to well, [00:50:30] before we move any further, what’s the worst thing about care stack software about. [00:50:35]

Kautham Haran: Care stack as a company or.

Payman Langroudi: Software software.

Kautham Haran: Software itself. [00:50:40] I think one thing that I’ve [00:50:45] noticed about Sestak is in our emphasis to listen [00:50:50] to customers and make sure everyone’s got a voice. [00:50:55] I think there are certain things that you can see within our product that we’ve tried to cater to potentially [00:51:00] too many people in the past, too many different, not everywhere, but in certain places. [00:51:05] I think sometimes when you think about like an iPhone, you know, it is the way it is, right? [00:51:10] And do we believe that our product is built in that way that we want it to, because [00:51:15] we know the way we’ve done it gives value to our customers. I think that’s probably something for me, myself, [00:51:20] looking at our software, I can see where it probably went in early days. We maybe [00:51:25] to land in a market, you do need to kind of have that flexibility. [00:51:30] So I think that’s definitely one thing. Maybe. And from an onboarding standpoint, if there’s [00:51:35] too many different ways of doing something, on the one hand, it’s flexibility. So you can cater for more people. [00:51:40] But on the other hand.

Payman Langroudi: It’s more complication.

Kautham Haran: Exactly.

Adrian Dray: It’s the problem of the plenty. Yes, [00:51:45] that’s that’s the the problem we have. And there are multiple ways to do things. [00:51:50] And if you’re trying to do a particular type of task, you might think [00:51:55] there’s way too many clicks to do this. But actually there’s another way that’s a lot quicker. But [00:52:00] we’ve, we’ve had to present the button [00:52:05] setup, whatever you want to call it, the UI in a way that that is able to [00:52:10] accommodate certain types of users who have come from a certain type of business. Because if [00:52:15] you ask most, most dentists on, on, on dentists, for dentists, and you said, [00:52:20] do you want so exactly as it is, but in the cloud, majority of them say, yes, [00:52:25] just minimum, just put that in the cloud.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Kautham Haran: But the thing is that happened [00:52:30] a lot. Yeah, when we first started.

Adrian Dray: But the reality is, is, is the way [00:52:35] that. So which is a good system, don’t get me wrong, but the way the SSO is set up, is [00:52:40] that the right way for the modern modern future dental practice? And [00:52:45] the reality is most people won’t be able to give a yes or no answer [00:52:50] to that. They don’t know. They just say, well, I just don’t like change. But you do like [00:52:55] innovation. Yeah, I like innovation. Changing innovation is the same thing. It’s just that [00:53:00] we have change is painful. Innovation is fluffy, but it’s the same process. [00:53:05] So I think that that is one of the things that we’ve in our in our efforts to be [00:53:10] attentive, right, and accommodating. We haven’t shot ourselves in [00:53:15] the foot. We’ve just had to adapt in the way that we develop in the future. [00:53:20]

Payman Langroudi: But there are trade offs, aren’t there? There are trade offs. It’s difficult to be the best product and [00:53:25] the cheapest, you know, things like that. Very obvious trade offs. Yeah. And here we are with this [00:53:30] particular trade off. Yeah. Well I think you’ll find I mean one thing you might not be aware of in [00:53:35] dental in general, is that the sort of huge [00:53:40] barriers to entry in every way? So, you know, [00:53:45] we’ve got regulatory issues. You’ve got regulatory issues obviously with data. Um, [00:53:50] getting a dentist to change behaviour is hard. But then on the [00:53:55] other end of it, that makes it easier because competitors find it [00:54:00] much harder to take your customers compared to other businesses, you know. You know, people [00:54:05] aren’t agile in changing software every three days. Um, even, even, [00:54:10] uh, you know, dental, dental materials, they get used to something they don’t want to change. And [00:54:15] so it’s one of those slow burn type businesses. Um, and, you know, I hate [00:54:20] regulatory, I hate it. And, you know, not that I’m at all involved [00:54:25] in it, but, you know, we’ve got people we spend loads of money on every time we’re trying to go to another country, [00:54:30] another regulatory nightmare. But I do reflect on the fact that it’s not a pizza shop [00:54:35] that my brother in law could set up next door to me if he wanted to, and [00:54:40] immediately take my business. It’s the regulatory is the best and the worst thing about it, [00:54:45] and the slow sales cycle that you’re discussing is also one of the best [00:54:50] and worst things about dentistry. I want to get on to the [00:54:55] sort of mental position that the market’s [00:55:00] now got for care Stack, which I suppose, Adrian, you’re really responsible for what’s happened [00:55:05] there.

Payman Langroudi: As I say, it feels like you’ve been around a long time and what you’ve done with [00:55:10] events, um, it makes you just feel like as, as an outsider that, [00:55:15] you know, these are people I need to listen to. I need to pay attention to this company. [00:55:20] Um, and we’ve discussed many times events. Let’s go to events. Yeah, [00:55:25] we’ve discussed many times that events need a shake up. You know, that they [00:55:30] haven’t changed. I mean, I’ve been in dentistry 25 years, 30 years or something, and [00:55:35] they basically haven’t changed very much. Um, and [00:55:40] I think Covid brought it into like sharper sort of focus that if you’re going [00:55:45] to leave your house, it needs to be worth it to leave your house. [00:55:50] Otherwise you can just go, you know, and there’s a magic about, let’s [00:55:55] face it, whatever AI comes in or whatever, there is a magic about [00:56:00] breaking bread and having lunch together, right? The AI is never going to replace. And for [00:56:05] instance, when you were doing the Rory um, thing, um, massive, wonderful [00:56:10] innovation, right? Bringing someone like him to dentistry. Um, Rory [00:56:15] Sutherland the, the, you know, you could have just gone to YouTube and watched a lot of [00:56:20] Rory, you know, but being in the same room as him, there’s a magic there. Not to mention he [00:56:25] sort of made his content more Dental. Mhm. So tell me your thought process around that. Do [00:56:30] you share what I’m saying about enough of hotels and conference centres and.

Adrian Dray: Oh, it’s. [00:56:35]

Payman Langroudi: Turning up as either James Bond or or Spider-Man [00:56:40] at the socials. You know, like.

Adrian Dray: It comes down to it comes down to a feeling that I [00:56:45] have. And I think you’ll you will agree with this. Dentistry is obviously a very small world. [00:56:50] The behaviours with it, the closest that I’ve ever experienced [00:56:55] is being back at high school.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Adrian Dray: Because you have the same cliques, right? [00:57:00] Yeah. You’ve got the, the, the ones that are going for the awards, the prom king, prom queen, [00:57:05] the popular kids. Right.

Kautham Haran: Did you grow up in the UK? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which [00:57:10] is a lot of American TV.

Adrian Dray: It’s not my fault you were alone at [00:57:15] school, right? I actually had friends.

Payman Langroudi: Go [00:57:20] on.

Adrian Dray: Homecoming, but I. And then you [00:57:25] would have, like, the anti-establishment. Yeah, right, kids. And then you would have, like, the real, [00:57:30] like, nerdy Do you have the bullies? Bullies. So you have all [00:57:35] of these these these these different these different cliques. And the way I survived [00:57:40] high school is I didn’t really belong to any particular clique.

Payman Langroudi: I just everyone thinks they’re that cat. But [00:57:45] you know.

Adrian Dray: I moved between.

Payman Langroudi: All of them. Not, not.

Adrian Dray: The, not the bullies. Yeah, but but [00:57:50] I just thought.

Payman Langroudi: Where did you go to school?

Adrian Dray: So I went to a private school in Devon up until [00:57:55] year eight. Year end of year eight. And then I went to a community college in North [00:58:00] Devon. So I’ve seen the private and the non private combination. Yeah. Got [00:58:05] bullied massively in my first year of community college. But um but yeah, I was able to [00:58:10] survive, you know, just understanding that social kind of thing. And you know what it’s like, right? It’s, it’s once [00:58:15] a year or it’s a couple of times a year, there’ll be that kid who’s got the best party and [00:58:20] everyone’s talking about going to that party.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Adrian Dray: And afterwards, what happened at [00:58:25] that party?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that kid’s share price goes up.

Adrian Dray: Right, right. And what actually happens in that party, it it might [00:58:30] not necessarily even be that exciting, right?

Payman Langroudi: It’s the conversation, the hype.

Adrian Dray: On it, the hype after [00:58:35] it, the people who weren’t there, all this kind of thing. So I, [00:58:40] I was realising that this was happening right when, when we go into the [00:58:45] trade shows, it’s the same old thing, right? Whether you go there as an attendee, it’s worse if you’re a supplier [00:58:50] because you feel like you’re being robbed basically in front of.

Payman Langroudi: You, risking your. Yeah.

Adrian Dray: Um, [00:58:55] but the I, I thought, well, let’s, let’s try [00:59:00] a different, different type of event. And before I put on [00:59:05] for the doers, which happened on 19th of September last year, 2025, [00:59:10] I had started listening to Rory Sutherland about behaviour psychology, [00:59:15] about marketing and advertising. Actually joined his masterclasses, online masterclasses. [00:59:20]

Payman Langroudi: So you had.

Adrian Dray: Masters? Yeah. So I was speaking, I’ll say speaking, I was, I was, I [00:59:25] was listening, learning from Rory as part of this online class. And every month we have a call with Rory. [00:59:30] And that was really how I was able to get in front of him, to talk to him about [00:59:35] dentistry and try and see, would you be up for coming to an event? Because he’s I mean, you know, he’s [00:59:40] a he was the vice chair of Ogilvy, right? So he’s his schedule is so [00:59:45] packed, but I managed to get enough intrigue there for [00:59:50] him to say, yes, I will come and do an interview, you know, in front of a live [00:59:55] studio audience, um, for dentistry. And that was the, [01:00:00] the, the event was just going to be getting people to just listening to Rory. Right. [01:00:05] That was it. I was going to do an evening thing, get people to come in and then they’d leave. And I thought, [01:00:10] no, maybe there’s, there’s more, more to this. Um, and so what I [01:00:15] wanted to do is build the whole event, not around [01:00:20] our product, but around a particular ideal. And [01:00:25] the ideal is that there are two types of groups in dentistry. [01:00:30] Actually many other industries. But in dentistry, you’ve got the ones who love the status quo, [01:00:35] who are quite happily happy to push down anyone who wants to try something new, right? [01:00:40] We call them the Moaners. Okay. And then you’ve got the others [01:00:45] who, even though the Moaners exist, they still are bold. They dare to be different. They want [01:00:50] a better dentistry. They do that publicly. They do that behind the scenes. And we [01:00:55] call them the doers. Right. This bias towards action. Now, the commercial [01:01:00] angle on this is that if we’re able to host an event that is talking [01:01:05] about those themes, then people who are there identify as that [01:01:10] and therefore are more likely to maybe take a bet on a new product like care stack [01:01:15] and voice stack, right? Because it takes guts and you’re gambling and all sorts [01:01:20] to try something new.

Adrian Dray: It’s very easy to to pick IBM. Right. That’s the the old [01:01:25] adage. So having a having an event that was all around that and [01:01:30] then bringing in different people that are able to talk about the mindset, they’re able to talk about their [01:01:35] particular stories and present that without us even showing our product. [01:01:40] That was a bit of a risk. It was an unsanctioned event, right? It was [01:01:45] this was like off book. So, um, but we actually, [01:01:50] from a commercial perspective, we close more business on that than the trade shows [01:01:55] we had been to that year combined. So for [01:02:00] us, it just showed an in an outstanding [01:02:05] point is that these decision makers want [01:02:10] to get to know their providers well and be aligned on [01:02:15] the same things, which is we want innovation. We want the, the mindset, [01:02:20] the skill set, the strategies to try and help our teams move, to [01:02:25] help us move, to have those conversations internally that we can have because [01:02:30] we have this internal bias to action. Let’s stop talking about it. Let’s actually do it. [01:02:35] And that’s what we wanted to arm our audience members with. That’s what Rory [01:02:40] is really good at, because he’s the king about thinking differently on things and reframing problems. [01:02:45] Um, and it worked incredibly, incredibly well. And then for us [01:02:50] from a, from a mental monopoly of fame perspective, which is what you need, particularly [01:02:55] when you’re a new product. It just, it just took us to the moon.

Payman Langroudi: I couldn’t [01:03:00] make it because it was the first day of my son’s university.

Adrian Dray: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Even though I had made it through [01:03:05] the process to come to it. Yes. But for people who weren’t there. And I [01:03:10] want to get on to that, by the way, I mean, there is a magic to events. There is a it’s a [01:03:15] nightmare. And at the end of the day, how many people can you have at an event? And, you know, by [01:03:20] the way, I’m doing event coming up. Yes. Um, the nightmare of an event versus [01:03:25] the magic of an event because it has. [01:03:30] Oh, we might have 400 people, but I put a post out on social today [01:03:35] that got 1000 views this morning. Yeah. And so it [01:03:40] doesn’t make actual ROI sense and brain time sense. And [01:03:45] yet in another totally immeasurable way, it makes total sense. Yeah. So tell [01:03:50] me about the if for people who weren’t there, what, what, what are a couple of, [01:03:55] um, Rory insights into dentistry?

Adrian Dray: Well, I would say that Rory [01:04:00] insights happen right from the preparation part because I asked him about [01:04:05] how do I, how do I make this a standout event? Because this is completely new. Yeah, it’s from a company. [01:04:10] So they’re probably gonna think, oh, we’re going to get sold to for a whole afternoon. How do I do this? [01:04:15] And his insight was make it application only. Mhm. [01:04:20] Now this comes from a topic which he talks about quite often, [01:04:25] which is you want to add a level of, of frictions, often to a, to a [01:04:30] process. Because when people do this, they feel that there’s a status upgrade. [01:04:35] Now he gives an example of, um, uh, cake mix, [01:04:40] right? So when this first came out in the 70s, um, the [01:04:45] cake mix was, was made in such a way that all you had to do was add water. That was it. [01:04:50] Put it in the oven. Done. And it failed. It didn’t go [01:04:55] through. You think that’s, that’s so easy, right? But people just felt like they hadn’t really made [01:05:00] a cake. So then they changed it and they just they put a few words, [01:05:05] just add an egg. And then it, it went because there was a, there was a level [01:05:10] of action that was put there. There was a level of friction there that people had bought in. And [01:05:15] then they feel like there’s internally there’s this kind of status elevation by doing that. [01:05:20]

Adrian Dray: So the first thing we did was we made an application only now. Also, I wanted to make sure there was [01:05:25] the right split of audience in the room, which is important because if I put tickets [01:05:30] out to see Rory Sutherland and meet Rory Sutherland guaranteed it would have been just [01:05:35] a load of associates and students who’s not my target audience. So [01:05:40] I was also making sure that we had the right, the right mix, right mix in [01:05:45] the room. So starting off with Rory’s insight was that, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen another [01:05:50] event that’s done application only. And that’s all I’m going to do before the doers moving forward. The [01:05:55] other things that he was showing, which was, which was [01:06:00] interesting during during, I was actually looking back on the interview recently, insights from [01:06:05] Rory. He spoke about [01:06:10] the, the potency of other people who [01:06:15] love their dentists. Mhm. Right. And he made a link towards [01:06:20] Royal Mail. Now, Royal Mail invests a lot of money into their brand. A few years [01:06:25] ago, quite a lot, probably about ten years ago. What they couldn’t understand [01:06:30] is that whilst they put all of this investment into their brand, they were [01:06:35] still part of the country where the satisfaction rate in Royal Mail was [01:06:40] going down. Even though as well they had a higher delivery rate as well. [01:06:45] But then they would find certain areas of the country where.

Payman Langroudi: The opposite.

Adrian Dray: Was true. The opposite [01:06:50] was. So the delivery rate was worse. But the interest in Royal Mail was much was [01:06:55] much higher. Right. The satisfaction rate in Royal Mail was much higher when they investigated [01:07:00] it. The. The. It all came down to how much they liked their postie, postman, [01:07:05] postman or postwoman. Right. Right. So that [01:07:10] was that was the weird thing, right? They can they don’t mind if there’s a couple of days late, but they. When the [01:07:15] postman comes, they. Morning. How are you doing? How’s the kids? Right. All this [01:07:20] kind of thing. Now, he went to a finance director and said, you know, we need to invest more in this. [01:07:25] They think he’s always got to do is deliver the letters. Who cares? But that [01:07:30] was that was a really important, important thing. He calls it the front, the doorman fallacy, [01:07:35] where you have a really nice hotel and it’s had a doorman at [01:07:40] the front who knows everyone who comes, comes across, knows all the local gangsters, knows all the [01:07:45] police, like all those the homeless guys. Now, if you had, um, [01:07:50] one of these big consultancy firms like McKinsey that went into that hole, the first thing they would say is, well, [01:07:55] is this a doorman to get an electric door, put a CCTV camera? Yeah.

Adrian Dray: That’s it. And [01:08:00] what they would. And then you save the money on his on his salary. But then later [01:08:05] on they realise well the, the, the rate has gone down. So [01:08:10] having those kind of things which you cannot necessarily quantify [01:08:15] is a really important thing to look at. And when you’ve got a split in the audience between DSO, [01:08:20] Leaders and independent practice owners, this was really this was really true because [01:08:25] now independent practice owners are starting to look into their data more than ever, right? They can [01:08:30] go into ChatGPT, they can get a McKinsey style response to [01:08:35] a particular problem. But what they’re forgetting is what makes them unique and [01:08:40] what is a superpower for them, which is they’re a family run business, and that probably has a higher potency [01:08:45] rate than whatever ChatGPT ChatGPT spits out or [01:08:50] a consultant spits out the same way you can save money here. So that was one [01:08:55] of his, his main things that he was, he was looking at.

Payman Langroudi: What was I mean, how does the dormant fallacy translate [01:09:00] to dentistry? Is that the you the way your receptionist acts or whatever?

Adrian Dray: Exactly. So for [01:09:05] example, you know, I showed invoice stack just before we went, we went live and [01:09:10] I actually saw Rory yesterday and, um, at an event and he goes, he goes, I’m [01:09:15] plugging voice at for you everywhere. I was like, I know Rory, I’m getting lawyers called me. I’m getting finance [01:09:20] people like, can you tell them it’s just for tennis?

Payman Langroudi: You’ve you’ve become one of his stories.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, exactly. [01:09:25] Right. So, um, yeah, but you have to go into other industries like, yeah, okay. But it was just [01:09:30] focus on, on dentistry now. But what he was, what he was saying [01:09:35] is what he likes about voice stack is that it’s able to show you what’s [01:09:40] called potential opportunities. Okay, this is what happens is that say someone [01:09:45] moves into the local area, okay, they’ve driven past your practice and they see an Invisalign [01:09:50] sign, or they know that you do implants. And the previous practice, they were they know that was one [01:09:55] of the things they were talking about. Whatever the story is, that means that person calls your practice [01:10:00] and makes an inquiry. Okay, now, does every one of those inquiries [01:10:05] on that first call turn into a Botox appointment? No, no. Right. And there [01:10:10] might be multiple reasons for it. It It could be the receptionist doesn’t have the right telephone handling skills [01:10:15] for that particular type of call, or just generally, it could be that they’re distracted because they’re dealing with a patient [01:10:20] right in front of them. It could be they’re not educating the person correctly on the type of treatment. There’s [01:10:25] a whole multitude of reasons why that person didn’t book on the initial call. What [01:10:30] voice act does is it analyses that call and sees [01:10:35] this is a new appointment opportunity here. It didn’t get booked. They spoke [01:10:40] about implants. What if we had an opportunity to give them a call back and voice [01:10:45] that highlights those particular calls. It scores the probability rates that if you call this person [01:10:50] back, and if you touched on these particular types of points, there’s [01:10:55] an 80, 60, 70% chance of getting them booked back in.

Payman Langroudi: Well, now and then it [01:11:00] alerts the team to call these guys first.

Adrian Dray: Exactly. So what practices are realising now [01:11:05] is that when they have voice that before they had absolutely no understanding or idea And [01:11:10] it’s not their fault because the dumb phone systems that they’ve been using, even the AI ones, weren’t.

Payman Langroudi: Totally [01:11:15] separate to me as far as package wise.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, you can have it integrated or separately. [01:11:20]

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Adrian Dray: Um, so now what they’re saying is like, right. So [01:11:25] our practice received, let’s say 100 opportunity calls, existing [01:11:30] or new patients that are calling up, talking about, talking about treatments with an intention to book an appointment, [01:11:35] right? Not changing the appointment, intention to book an appointment. And of that, we [01:11:40] didn’t book 80% of them. Why not? And [01:11:45] now they can look at look at all of those. But it’s not just the case of thinking, oh crap, we’ve got a [01:11:50] massive problem here. The system is now nudging a treatment coordinator or someone else [01:11:55] to call that individual back. And now that conversion [01:12:00] rate is going up. Now the there’s two things that work really well here. First of [01:12:05] all, that’s reverse benchmarking because no other practice is doing that, because they don’t have a system in [01:12:10] place that actually picks up that opportunity anyway. The second thing is, [01:12:15] is that the potency level from a patient experience is so high for [01:12:20] people getting that type of callback, right. So imagine, imagine Mrs. Jones has [01:12:25] made the call. She’s, uh, heard that one of her friends has had dental implants [01:12:30] done at the practice and thought, you know, I’ve got, you know, anniversary dinner coming [01:12:35] up in a few months and I’m a bit worried. Don’t have the confidence eating into a steak or whatever. I really want to whatever [01:12:40] their sob story is around implants. Okay. And they call up whether [01:12:45] it’s price, maybe it’s something else. They don’t they don’t book in. Now, they [01:12:50] spoke to Julie on the front desk. Now, uh, Donna, [01:12:55] the TCO calls back that patient potential patient [01:13:00] and says, oh, Mrs. Jones, she spoke to Julie yesterday about this. I don’t think that we covered everything [01:13:05] on finance for you. I just wondered if you know. So you make an informed [01:13:10] choice. I get to see, even from the conversation data and speaking with practices, [01:13:15] practices, all of them have got a story where the patient is absolutely [01:13:20] over the moon from a patient experience perspective that they had that type of [01:13:25] call.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. I think as in the second person knows what happened in the first call.

Kautham Haran: And [01:13:30] you can even take it further there. I think I’ve seen some practices who do really well with this. When a patient turns around [01:13:35] and says, I’m off to the Bahamas for a, for a couple of months and I’m coming back and you get that transcript pulled [01:13:40] through and you understand it. And then you use that when the when the front of house or the TCO then [01:13:45] calls that patient and says and speaks to them next. Oh, I hope your trip to the Bahamas was. Well, yeah, that difference, [01:13:50] I think in you keep you’re keeping the ethos of what your practice is good at, you know, from [01:13:55] the dormant fallacy kind of idea, all of these things on what’s the core parts of our business family run [01:14:00] this kind of thing, making sure we’re doing right by the patients, but then you’re getting your systems to come in place [01:14:05] and just almost amplify the things that you’re good at, and that is [01:14:10] working really well for you. I think those two things tying together is the key. The system.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:14:15] there’s a CRM built in so that the team can see what’s going on [01:14:20] with respect to these.

Adrian Dray: Two things, we integrate with a few CRM. So Boxley is one of them. We’ve got [01:14:25] go high level. There’s a few others and then grow as well. Um, [01:14:30] but we do have at that a specific feature that if, if the [01:14:35] individuals just want to have a look at that potential opportunities that come in that they can just focus [01:14:40] on that. Um, the other thing that that voice stack has been really good for and has the same thing that Rory [01:14:45] was talking about is missed call response, um, is [01:14:50] like front and centre. So every practice is going to have missed calls. Okay. I spoke to a practice [01:14:55] last week. Their answer rate was 25%. [01:15:00] Wow. Okay. But they responded to every missed call. Okay. [01:15:05] In under an hour. It was. It was just weird. I said, you’re spending more time [01:15:10] on responding to missed calls than you are answering them now. We there was there was some reasons internally [01:15:15] for that. We’ve helped them with some features and this kind of thing. I checked their stats yesterday. They’ve gone to 75%. [01:15:20] Right. But the thing I said that you should take stock and you [01:15:25] know, commend them.

Payman Langroudi: Number one we’re measuring the missed calls.

Adrian Dray: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. Go on. Yeah.

Adrian Dray: But the [01:15:30] the thing is, is that I can um when you’re the fact you’re responding [01:15:35] to these missed calls at all is, is great and you’re doing it so quickly. [01:15:40] If you put yourself in the patient’s shoes, they don’t know what percentage of you know [01:15:45] you’re answering. You’re missing. They just know that.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the situation? They were understaffed.

Adrian Dray: They [01:15:50] they had a whole new reception team. And they had one receptionist. They had given that there were only a 1 or [01:15:55] 2 surgery practice. They had the same call volume as a five surgery practice I’d spoken [01:16:00] to the day before. They just got a lot of calls.

Payman Langroudi: For interesting practice.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, but [01:16:05] it might just be it could be just the area. It could be the fact that people were ringing around for NHS. There’s lots of different things [01:16:10] for this. But the, the, the, the point that Rory was saying is that he said, [01:16:15] if you put your consumer hat on, how many times have you had [01:16:20] this experience where you’ve called a big company or even a small company you’ve not got through and they’ve called you back? [01:16:25] Doesn’t happen. You just think, I haven’t got through to E today. I’ve got to call them back. Yeah. Right. [01:16:30] So the potency level or the being an exception in that patient’s mind is [01:16:35] so high because they think, oh, wow. Thank you for calling me back. That’s great. Add that [01:16:40] to potential opportunities where it’s highly personalised. Then it’s even more of a winner.

Payman Langroudi: Right?

Kautham Haran: Yeah. [01:16:45] And I think taking from that, it’s I’ve seen some practices that have done this really well when [01:16:50] they’re looking at that scenario where, for example, their call rate is so low, they then [01:16:55] have done this thing where within their teams, they’ve said, how do we address this as [01:17:00] a team and now bringing the team in to be part of that process. I always use the analogy of, um, [01:17:05] you know, Ikea furniture because you’re building it yourself. You then have more [01:17:10] care for the furniture. And in that same way, by getting team members to then address the [01:17:15] problem and be part of the solution and help define that solution, the uptake and the change [01:17:20] is completely ownership. Yeah, complete ownership of doing [01:17:25] it themselves and understanding. And because they’ve helped to develop that process, they, they think, oh, [01:17:30] I can’t not do it because I was the one who even helped to suggest this.

Adrian Dray: And when you add that voice that does [01:17:35] call scoring as well, so it looks at the individuals calls, it splits it up into different [01:17:40] areas and says, you’re great at this, but you weren’t good at this.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the back end of that? [01:17:45] You could like voice to text to LM.

Kautham Haran: Yeah, yeah.

Adrian Dray: Then presents [01:17:50] it back into a UI.

Payman Langroudi: Nightmare software is man. Because because give it another eight months [01:17:55] and the guys AI is going to call the practices AI.

Adrian Dray: That’s already [01:18:00] happening, isn’t it? This is a brilliant story, right? So this is this is why I’m I’m a little bit even [01:18:05] though we are bringing out our own like AI voice bot receptionists, [01:18:10] we have to as a, as an industry, we have to be exceptionally careful [01:18:15] with this. Um, so let me give you a quick story first [01:18:20] and then then go into the warning. There are practices out in the US that have [01:18:25] an AI receptionist voice receptionists taking calls out of hours, [01:18:30] and they’ve just picked whatever’s first the market or got the best ad campaign about [01:18:35] Dental receptionists. And they’re coming after a couple of weeks, [01:18:40] they’re going all on Facebook and saying, this is amazing. It’s booked so many like Invisalign [01:18:45] consultations. I had no idea there was so much interest at 2 a.m.. Right. [01:18:50] What it is, right, is that their competitor down the road knows they’re using an AI receptionist [01:18:55] has built their own AI patient to go and phone up, book [01:19:00] all of these fake consultations.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Adrian Dray: Yeah. So goddamn, [01:19:05] how petty is that? Now, whether that’s going to work in the [01:19:10] US or in the UK, I don’t know whether that’s going to have the same situation. But the warning is [01:19:15] here is that it does not take much effort. You don’t need any coding experience [01:19:20] to design. What is an AI Dental receptionist? Right. There’s [01:19:25] so many that are hitting the market. Yeah. The problem that we have is the same problem we had [01:19:30] when those hoverboards came out. You remember those two wheeled hoverboards, right? It didn’t start [01:19:35] with Samsung or big name brand bringing out a hoverboard. It was [01:19:40] cheap hoverboards that were being drop shipped from Taiwan and China. Yeah. Then they were [01:19:45] starting to be house fires, people getting having accidents. And that whole product line died straight [01:19:50] away because it was bottom. Top. Mhm. Right. We have we’re going to have [01:19:55] we’re going to have the same problem with AI voice receptionists, because everyone’s running to AI [01:20:00] because they’re thinking AI from an efficiency perspective. They’re not seeing AI from a value perspective. [01:20:05] And this is bad for even small dental practices should always [01:20:10] look at value. The corporates, although they shouldn’t, they they typically look at [01:20:15] an efficiency perspective because they have the restraints of being a pee backed often. Right. But [01:20:20] you know as well having a premium product, right. It’s premium for a reason. It [01:20:25] gives value for, for a reason. So you’re not why would you want to gamble with [01:20:30] a potential patient who could be dropping 30 K on a full arch or [01:20:35] very complex treatment in the hands of a, of a robot.

Payman Langroudi: Because the robots are better [01:20:40] at it than the human that that would be at that point. I mean, we’ve got a chatbot is better than most of our [01:20:45] people. And that never makes a mistake. When, when, when they it’s text, right. When they send [01:20:50] that text, they certainly we found out there’s only 27 questions that enlightened ever gets asked. So [01:20:55] she knows how to answer those 27. I’m not saying it’s an easy thing to [01:21:00] organise, but that is the moment you would do it right when when the AI answers better than the human, [01:21:05] I bet there’s a whole lot of, um, data protection nightmares in it too. Oh yeah. [01:21:10]

Adrian Dray: Because a lot of these AI receptionists that came, that came out and actually look. [01:21:15] Yeah. Um, last year, right. I was getting a spike of calls [01:21:20] to my, to my GDPR consultancy. Right. Adrian, I’ve just, I’ve just [01:21:25] got this. I’m not going to mention the name of it. Um, just got this AI receptionist that’s being pushed out on, [01:21:30] on, uh, in Facebook at the moment. Um, and it’s, [01:21:35] I’ve got a data breach. It’s starting to provide the details of the previous patient. [01:21:40] Well, right.

Payman Langroudi: So just someone asked it. Yeah, [01:21:45] it was too.

Kautham Haran: It doesn’t have the safeguarding in there to do it. And it will. [01:21:50]

Adrian Dray: Yeah. Because I was, I was getting a bit of pushback. Right. And being challenged online. It’s like, Adrian, [01:21:55] you know, you’re the face of voice tech in the UK. This AI phone system is [01:22:00] analysing where’s your voice spot? We’ve got all these other people. Where’s your one? And I was like giving our guys hassle [01:22:05] for this. And I just don’t look bad, man. And then they, they, um, they told [01:22:10] me it’s like, well, it’s not harder than you think. You’ve got complex treatment plans, you’ve got NHS, [01:22:15] you’ve got potential safeguarding. This is not easy to push out. For some calls [01:22:20] it might be straightforward. You start bringing in some complexity and it starts doing all sorts of crazy stuff, [01:22:25] including data breaches. So ours is coming out soon. I won’t [01:22:30] give dates, but um, but yeah, I can tell you that that the significant amount [01:22:35] of effort has been put in so that it gives a proper experience and importantly, it passes over [01:22:40] to the right person when it’s required.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s move on to the [01:22:45] darker part of the pod. We like to talk about mistakes. Obviously, [01:22:50] you guys aren’t clinicians, So it’s not going to be as stark. But what would you [01:22:55] call your biggest mistakes in at work?

Kautham Haran: I [01:23:00] think for me, I think, um [01:23:05] building teams is always hard. I think you learn a lot. [01:23:10] I mean, if you think about the different types of people that you come across, and I think sometimes [01:23:15] making difficult decisions around team members and sometimes [01:23:20] believing in the best in some of them as well. Now I’ve always got this, you know, [01:23:25] people come from all sorts of backgrounds. They come in, you know, they go through an interview process and you bring them in. But [01:23:30] at the end of the day, if you’ve got a high performing team, you have a duty of care to those high performers [01:23:35] that you don’t keep low performers within the team because [01:23:40] otherwise it becomes a toxic environment and doing that. So I think learning that lesson too late. [01:23:45] I know I’ve put potentially stress on the teams and the high performers without, [01:23:50] you know, needing to tackle those probably difficult decisions.

Payman Langroudi: Not firing people [01:23:55] quick enough. I think you’re saying.

Kautham Haran: I think hiring slow but firing fast is [01:24:00] definitely some a lesson that whilst I’ve been at chaos that, you know, it’s something I’ve learned. [01:24:05] I mean, I’ll be honest, when I joined chaos, I think on my second day, I was told to build a team of ten people [01:24:10] and not having been in implementation, not having been in Dental. And then I think building [01:24:15] teams fast, you then realise, hmm, okay, should I’ve done that a bit slower and picked and [01:24:20] you know, and did it slightly differently. So making that decision to, to move faster, [01:24:25] I think, you know, and probably when I have made those decisions, I’ve also gone out and probably [01:24:30] apologised to my team because I think you should sit there as a potential leader within an organisation [01:24:35] and admit the mistakes that you’ve made, because if you have caused duress on the team, it’s [01:24:40] those guys who are there to perform and you sit above and you’re meant to guide them. But it tells [01:24:45] us all that we’re kind of human and we can make those mistakes. So for me, I think that’s the one that probably [01:24:50] frustrates me a bit about my experience. But everything is a learning.

Payman Langroudi: People talk about business [01:24:55] should be more like a pro sports team than a family.

Kautham Haran: And I’m a big [01:25:00] fan of that.

Payman Langroudi: But you do feel like it’s a family. We’re a family here. We’re working together, we care about [01:25:05] each other and all of that. And so when you mix those two things up, it becomes hard to fire people. [01:25:10]

Kautham Haran: Yeah, I think so. But I think also, once you start having a high performing team, it becomes a bit easier because [01:25:15] the standard is set and I use the analogy.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of polices each other.

Kautham Haran: Exactly. And I think it’s that [01:25:20] kind of thing where I use the analogy from the movie 300, where I think they’re all meant to [01:25:25] lift their shield and cover the person next to them. If you bring in a team member that can’t lift that shield, [01:25:30] the others will be the ones at your door saying, hang on, this person’s not not up to scratch. And [01:25:35] I think that for me is probably a lesson that I’ve learned that, you know, once you’ve got good people in your team, they [01:25:40] can even tell you, you know, I don’t think this person’s cut out for it. But that’s a, there’s [01:25:45] a very fine line there because that can be a toxic work environment. So how do you police that? [01:25:50] How do you make sure when you’ve got young members in the team and they’re all early in their careers or growing the [01:25:55] human beings, they’re going to make mistakes. How do you manage that? How do you make sure everyone’s [01:26:00] singing from the same hymn sheet? And how do you cover those things? Because once you get a toxic environment, [01:26:05] um, I’ve seen that with teams, you kind of almost have to cut it all out and start again, which is [01:26:10] not easy to do. And I know that’s something that has gone through as a company, not necessarily in the UK, but in [01:26:15] I think in the US. They did that at some point. And I think that’s a lesson I’ve learned from Abbey, which [01:26:20] he told me very early on. Yeah, that was needed.

Adrian Dray: So Abbey is.

Kautham Haran: Right. And I still fell into that mistake. [01:26:25] And it’s frustrating. The good thing is he doesn’t he doesn’t really say, I told you so. No, I think [01:26:30] I think from that side, I think I didn’t I didn’t take that into consideration enough, but I’ve learned my lessons.

Payman Langroudi: Adrian. [01:26:35] Biggest mistake.

Adrian Dray: Plural or singular? I [01:26:40] think the the biggest mistake that [01:26:45] I have made since my Kazakh journey is [01:26:50] taking myself too seriously at times. [01:26:55]

Payman Langroudi: Oh yeah.

Adrian Dray: Because, you know, when we first came, I launched this with Abby. [01:27:00] We were on the road and we were. And we were very much the face, the personality [01:27:05] behind the product.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Adrian Dray: Now Abby is now mostly in the US. Um, [01:27:10] and it’s it’s me. Right. I’ve become the more of the name [01:27:15] and the face around the product. And my job is to make it famous and make it [01:27:20] popular and to be a thorn in the side to my competitors and calling out their issues [01:27:25] without mentioning their names. Right. These these are things. And you get so involved in that, that [01:27:30] creative process when things don’t go your [01:27:35] way or when mistakes happen, it’s not of a case that it’s a it’s a black [01:27:40] mark or a smudge on the Kazakh name. It’s so easy to take it as that’s a. [01:27:45] That’s a smudge against my name. Now, as soon as that happens, I [01:27:50] realise I start to lose my temper, and when I lose my temper and I become negative, [01:27:55] I take it out on cow. I take it out on Samantha. I take it out on the teams and [01:28:00] I have to take myself out of the country often just to. [01:28:05] Just to chill out. So the way that I’ve been able to, to change [01:28:10] that now is I, I’m stepping a little bit back [01:28:15] from just being the person who is who’s, who is talking on stage and [01:28:20] all these kind of things because you’ve got to know cow. Now you can see why I was like, we need [01:28:25] to have cow on the podcast because he has so much insight.

Adrian Dray: He articulates on items a lot better than I do. [01:28:30] And it’s not a case that I want cow to take the heat. Sometimes it’s a case of that there’s [01:28:35] more to this from a personality perspective than Adrian Dray, right? [01:28:40] And I don’t say that in an arrogant way. It’s just the way the chips have fallen with this. Um, [01:28:45] uh, but that’s probably the, the biggest thing. And, and, you know, the way, [01:28:50] the way this probably happened the most was last [01:28:55] year, uh, in, uh, dentist for dentist group. [01:29:00] They had an anonymous posting feature, anonymous comments feature and [01:29:05] there was conversations around care stack positive and negative. And then it just, [01:29:10] it was just a tirade of negative comments. And then it started to go against me personally, right? [01:29:15] Things like Adrian’s gone from helping protecting businesses [01:29:20] now to destroying them, right? Which is like, where’s this come from? It’s like, oh, this is it. He’s [01:29:25] just, he’s given free GDPR advice for, for years. [01:29:30] Um, and now to, you know, now only just to go and push, push a product. I was [01:29:35] like, I was doing GDPR way before he was even a thought, right, for the UK market. [01:29:40] And that really hit me. I remember sending screenshots to Cao and Sham, which I shouldn’t [01:29:45] send screenshots of. I’ll get killed for that. It was only a bit about me. Um, and it was anonymous. Um. [01:29:50]

Payman Langroudi: How are you on that site in the first place?

Adrian Dray: How? Yeah, because years of [01:29:55] giving free GDPR advice. That’s that’s honorary honorary member. Yeah. But [01:30:00] what what I later found out is that there are individuals who have a personal [01:30:05] beef with me. Were getting other people to post pretending to [01:30:10] be clients.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, anonymous post. Right.

Adrian Dray: Right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Adrian Dray: Um, [01:30:15] and I, I let them win. I let them take, take my peace of mind. [01:30:20] So now I just don’t care. I like now I view myself as a gladiator in the Colosseum, [01:30:25] which all Dental suppliers should. Right. And the audience are in the Colosseum. [01:30:30] That’s dentistry. So we are there to fight. It’s supposed to be a bloodbath. So when these things pop [01:30:35] up now, I don’t take it so seriously. It’s like, well, this is the game.

Payman Langroudi: But you’ve been guilty of taking it too [01:30:40] personally.

Adrian Dray: Yeah.

Kautham Haran: Massively so. I think on that, Adrian, I can’t give you enough credit for managing that, to be honest, [01:30:45] because the rest of us, we’ve come into dentistry. Obviously I want to be here to stay. But [01:30:50] given your longevity within this market, I think that kind of pressure where people associate your [01:30:55] name with Kessock, I think sitting there and if you’re getting these personal digs, that’s not, you know, [01:31:00] if Kessock doesn’t work or anything like this, the rest of us can walk away. But for you, I think there [01:31:05] is a significantly more risk, you know, higher risk that you’ve taken on that. That’s not easy as a person. And I think it’s [01:31:10] strength to Adrian’s character to be able to kind of manage that and also admit that [01:31:15] you were a nightmare to deal with in those scenarios when it was awful. I’ll be honest, but I [01:31:20] wouldn’t have wanted to be in your shoes, and I give you credit for that. Thanks. To get through that.

Adrian Dray: This [01:31:25] is recorded. Yeah. I’m going to play that back to you.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you’re a heart on your sleeve [01:31:30] kind of guy. Yeah. Again, it’s the best thing about you as well. Um it’s you know what, [01:31:35] the one thing I’m learning from this pod is I should spend more time on Facebook. I haven’t been.

Adrian Dray: There. You don’t [01:31:40] want to sit there.

Payman Langroudi: For a long, long, long time. I [01:31:45] was looking at my for some reason, my phone gave me my son’s screen time [01:31:50] for whatever, you know, and I thought he was like, I don’t know, two hours, 40. And [01:31:55] then I looked at my own one and I said, oh, you’re down like 24% from last week [01:32:00] at seven hours. I was like, what, seven hours? Um, [01:32:05] another social platform. I don’t know if I could manage, man.

Adrian Dray: Well, I think it’s good. You [01:32:10] know, it’s good to be able to see what’s being said.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Adrian Dray: But also taking a lot [01:32:15] of it with a pinch, pinch of salt, particularly when people are.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve had my moments on on for Dental. Yeah, [01:32:20] for sure. But I just I don’t bother with it with, with Facebook anymore. No, I’m more [01:32:25] the other, other direction. Let’s move on to our final questions. Fancy [01:32:30] dinner party. Three guests, dead or alive. Who’s going first? [01:32:35]

Adrian Dray: You go first.

Kautham Haran: Okay. For me, I think [01:32:40] Obama is one. I think Michelle.

Payman Langroudi: What’s funny about. [01:32:45]

Kautham Haran: It, to be honest, I think as an orator, he’s [01:32:50] the best, I think. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Even better than Clinton and Blair, man, which I didn’t think was possible.

Kautham Haran: I think [01:32:55] the way he speaks, and it’s probably something that, you know, for me and my career and where I want to go, I think I, you [01:33:00] know, I think being able to pick his brain and just sit with him, I think would be incredible. [01:33:05] I think number one, number two, probably for me, quite a I quite [01:33:10] like my movies. So I think Christopher Nolan, I’ve loved his movie since I was young. [01:33:15] So I think just understanding how he creates a vision within his head and plots it because, you [01:33:20] know, it’s art.

Payman Langroudi: Which is your favourite memento?

Kautham Haran: Love that movie [01:33:25] from 2000. So a film shot I think. Non-chronologically. [01:33:30] So it’s back to front. It’s very.

Adrian Dray: Weird.

Kautham Haran: Film, very good movies. If you haven’t seen it, I would [01:33:35] recommend.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve seen it or not.

Kautham Haran: Yeah, I would, um.

Payman Langroudi: Would I remember it?

Kautham Haran: No it’s not. I don’t think [01:33:40] it’s particularly popular very you know, I mean he’s known for confusing movies, but I think I remember [01:33:45] the name. Yeah. That was the kind of one that got it. Um, and probably third more [01:33:50] from a personal point of view. Um, I think, um, I never got the chance to meet my [01:33:55] grandfather. He passed away before I was born. But when I’ve spoken to [01:34:00] my father, you know, they grew up in Sri Lanka. He was the reason, you know, that set the whole platform [01:34:05] for my father to, you know, eventually leave his country due to civil war. But I think I stand [01:34:10] on the shoulders of fathers, grandfathers, mothers, grandmothers of people [01:34:15] like that. And I think seeing how, you know, my dad’s my biggest hero. So if seeing them and [01:34:20] being able to talk to the person who moulded him, I think I there’s insights [01:34:25] there that I just wish and pray that I could have. But obviously he’s passed. So [01:34:30] unfortunately I can’t. But yeah, I think there’s.

Payman Langroudi: Good reason to have him, right? Yeah. What [01:34:35] did your dad do?

Kautham Haran: Uh, my dad’s just, uh. He was a corner shop owner before. He’s now retired, but, [01:34:40] um, put.

Payman Langroudi: Myself in that corner shop owner. People say that. Yeah. The question is, what was he doing before that? [01:34:45] Because sometimes you’d be like, yeah, he was a civil engineer and then he became a corner shop. You get that [01:34:50] all the time.

Kautham Haran: Yeah. So my father left his country at the age of 21 due to civil war. Kind of [01:34:55] came over Sri Lanka. Yeah. Sri Lanka then. So he’s been a start up owner. Corner shop owner. Right. So [01:35:00] like I’ve always seen the drive to work from him. Honestly, he used to work. Really.

Payman Langroudi: You ever work in the shop? [01:35:05]

Kautham Haran: Yeah. Yeah. Back in the day.

Payman Langroudi: So massive people talk about how they manage like to [01:35:10] learn how to talk to anyone from working in a general store.

Kautham Haran: Absolutely. I think that kind [01:35:15] of just that relationship to, to talk to people from a young age, I think my dad was always against technology, [01:35:20] you know, was that, you know, those automatic tools that you got with the scanners when they first came out, I said, [01:35:25] is what I call him. I said, come on, you’ve got to get one of these, say the times. He’s like, no, why? Why don’t you just memorise the [01:35:30] price of every single item in the shop? And that’s how he runs it and how his staff had to run it. [01:35:35] And I thought, this is insane. So yeah, he did that. I think very mathsy brain, [01:35:40] which I think, and my mother as well, I’ve kind of taken on. But understanding that hard [01:35:45] work, I think comes from him for sure. And that’s kind of motivated me. They, you know, [01:35:50] they didn’t have to leave, you know, going back to Sri Lanka. I see the way they grew up. Bloody hell. You know, [01:35:55] like living, you know, three of them in a room smaller than this. Um, and growing up like that teaches you humility, [01:36:00] which I think then means that who am I to not try hard, given the opportunities I’ve given in life? So [01:36:05] that for me has been a very big kind of thing that I’m worried about future generations. [01:36:10] If they don’t see that hardship, how do you get them to to be motivated and [01:36:15] to push themselves? So, um, I think, yeah, coming from my father and those [01:36:20] generations, I think is it’s important.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting. It’s like, you know, diamonds are made under pressure, [01:36:25] whatever, at the same time, you know, like, let’s imagine your kids [01:36:30] will see what you’re doing under a different type of pressure. Have you got kids?

Kautham Haran: Not yet. [01:36:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, and then and then the kind of thing that your kid might aspire to be. There’s [01:36:40] a global thing that, you know, it’s an interesting story.

Kautham Haran: Of course, because how do [01:36:45] you teach a generation? I don’t know, I find it really interesting. When you said your kids got off to a uni right now, [01:36:50] you said, yeah, yeah. So teaching them, you know, if, if you have a parent [01:36:55] that’s successful, I think, how do you instil that fire in the next generation? They have to be [01:37:00] motivated or been brought in, understand the the push and the hard work that’s necessary. [01:37:05] But understanding that you don’t always get given things on a silver platter, I think is important. But that’s [01:37:10] all kind of how you’re brought up. There’s some, you know, comparing to your peers, all these kind of things. It’s, it’s, [01:37:15] I don’t envy you at the moment, but it’s going to be even harder for future generations. I think, um, [01:37:20] it’s a quote I always love. What’s it the good time. Sorry. Good times breed [01:37:25] weak men. Weak men breed bad times and bad times breed good men, man, right? So that kind [01:37:30] of.

Adrian Dray: Heard of that?

Kautham Haran: Yeah. I think that cycle is.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:37:35] about you? Brilliant. Brilliant. Guess who’s going to be yours.

Adrian Dray: So [01:37:40] dead or alive?

Payman Langroudi: Three. Guess.

Adrian Dray: Fiction or non-fiction. Right. Okay. [01:37:45]

Payman Langroudi: Fiction. Interesting. Cool.

Adrian Dray: So it could be characters. Sure. Okay.

Kautham Haran: Fictional.

Adrian Dray: Yeah. [01:37:50]

Payman Langroudi: Well, like Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck like that.

Adrian Dray: I don’t give it away. Um, [01:37:55] so my first one would be Alex Hormozi. [01:38:00] Oh, yeah. Right. And for those who don’t know who Alex doesn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Know Alex Hormozi.

Adrian Dray: People don’t. I [01:38:05] spoke to some. Oh, that guy from the Neck Dentistry show. I was talking to him. He didn’t [01:38:10] know who it was, like flipping it, mate. I guess there’s.

Payman Langroudi: A guy who’s not who’s not flicking as much as I am.

Adrian Dray: But [01:38:15] Alex Hormozi is just, you know, he’s entrepreneurial brain. [01:38:20] He’s ability to deal with the hard things is just great. Like that [01:38:25] guy is just a machine.

Payman Langroudi: Like just Unemotional. Yeah.

Adrian Dray: Sort of. Yeah. But also, when he does [01:38:30] tap into that emotional bit, it’s like so compelling. It’s like, wow, you do bleed, you know? Um, [01:38:35] then the second person would be my favourite character of [01:38:40] all time. And that is Quint. So the fisherman, [01:38:45] the shark shark hunter in jaws.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Adrian Dray: Oh, right.

Payman Langroudi: Because he’s [01:38:50] you want the character.

Adrian Dray: I want the character.

Payman Langroudi: Not the actor.

Adrian Dray: No, I mean, Robert Shaw would be amazing, but as [01:38:55] Robert Shaw, as Quint in that, because, you know.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve never had a character before. I [01:39:00] love that.

Adrian Dray: The ability to his storytelling ability is incredible. [01:39:05] Right. Um, and he’s quite grizzly, you know. Um, and then the, [01:39:10] the third person would be Don Draper from Mad Men. [01:39:15]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah. Yeah. The character.

Adrian Dray: The character. But Jon Hamm playing Don [01:39:20] Draper. Right. Um.

Payman Langroudi: These are some of the three most innovative answers I’ve had. [01:39:25] Bad.

Adrian Dray: Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. Because I think the conversation around that table would be so [01:39:30] interesting. Don Draper has got this very creative, almost aloof kind of personality. [01:39:35] You’ve got Quint who’s just this aggressive, you know, blue collar, almost [01:39:40] quite a nasty person, right, in many ways. And then you’ve got Hormozi, [01:39:45] who is just so like locked in to, to hard work, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Can I add one for you?

Adrian Dray: Yeah, [01:39:50] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Younger Adrian the musician. Oh, really? We didn’t really get to that.

Adrian Dray: That guy’s [01:39:55] a douchebag.

Payman Langroudi: We didn’t really get to that part of the conversation. [01:40:00] You were a proper rock star for a bit, man.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, I was a front man of a band. I was building [01:40:05] up in Stockholm, and it was a great time in my life. I was a lot [01:40:10] I almost half the weight I am now. Um, but it was brilliant writing my own songs [01:40:15] and yeah, having that.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re thinking of going back to writing.

Adrian Dray: Yeah. You [01:40:20] know, I was in, I was in Austin a few weeks ago and that country [01:40:25] music scene. And I the last sort of songs I was writing were very sort of country music based. Uh, [01:40:30] and I just got a taste for it. And I just thought for me, if I’m going to go back [01:40:35] on stage, feel more confident in myself, but also to be able to sing better because it, you know, it’s [01:40:40] breathing is a big part of it. I thought, I need to lose a buttload of weight. So I’ve set my set myself [01:40:45] a goal in November, I’m going to do a gig in Manchester and know exactly where it’s going to be. And I’ve got [01:40:50] ten songs to write and about 50, 40, 50 kilos to lose.

Payman Langroudi: And, well.

Kautham Haran: People are going to be [01:40:55] shouting, is that Don Draper? Oh.

Speaker 5: Yeah, [01:41:00] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s it’s [01:41:05] been a massive pleasure, man. I’ve really enjoyed it. Um, from you I’ve learnt go back on Facebook [01:41:10] and for you, my God, you, your brain works really beautiful [01:41:15] sort of logical way. It’s nice to see that. Nice to see how in touch you are with all [01:41:20] of that as well. And team building. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing.

Adrian Dray: Can I do one last thing? [01:41:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Of course.

Adrian Dray: Can I plug someone? A business, a small little business [01:41:30] who unfortunately was at the same had [01:41:35] the same sort of outcome that I had from that individual who took the whole CRM [01:41:40] business idea.

Payman Langroudi: From the same person.

Adrian Dray: Same person.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Adrian Dray: I’ve heard that. [01:41:45] She’s a wonderful person. I’ve looked at her, some of her work. She does branding. Uh, it’s, uh, [01:41:50] her website is Varta creative studio.co. That’s VARTA creative [01:41:55] studio.co. Um, her, her big sister’s a [01:42:00] dentist owns a couple of practices and I think if people can have a look at what she’s got, go [01:42:05] for it.

Payman Langroudi: What does she do?

Adrian Dray: So she, she does like branding website design. It’s [01:42:10] on a smaller level. But I think we should look at these, these sort of, you know, smaller businesses and [01:42:15] give them a shot. And she’s, she’s had a difficult time with that individual. And I think, you know what, [01:42:20] go ahead and have a look.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes you know the creatives for this stuff. Yeah, [01:42:25] we, we first, um, booked them 18 years [01:42:30] ago and it was just two men and now they’re this massive. [01:42:35]

Adrian Dray: Wow.

Payman Langroudi: It’s, you know, some sometimes it’s, it’s when you’re small [01:42:40] and new, when you’re most innovative. Yeah.

Adrian Dray: You’ve got nothing to lose often, you know. [01:42:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But you have to be something. You have to be outside of the box. Right?

Kautham Haran: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Lovely [01:42:50] to have you guys. Thanks. Thanks for doing it.

Kautham Haran: Thank you. Thanks so much.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. [01:42:55] If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both [01:43:00] from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has [01:43:05] had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, [01:43:10] think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you think [01:43:15] might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six [01:43:20] star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by enlighten. Enlighten is an advanced teeth whitening system. Join [00:00:05] us for online training where I’ll take you through everything you need to know about how to [00:00:10] assess a case quickly, how to use the system, how to talk to patients. Because when [00:00:15] you know you can deliver brilliant results, it’s so much easier to talk about it. To book your course, which takes [00:00:20] only an hour. It’s completely free. Visit enlighten Online training.com. [00:00:25] Now let’s get to the pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The podcast [00:00:35] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:40] hosts, Payman Langroudi [00:00:45] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Neil Seeker [00:00:50] onto the podcast. Neil has had an illustrious career, but right [00:00:55] now, chief dental officer at Bupa Dental insurance [00:01:00] and director of dentistry at Bupa, which is 360 practices. So I [00:01:05] guess representing the clinicians at all levels, right. Is that is that is that what you [00:01:10] do at Bupa?

Neil Sikka: I do, I do, I suppose I do three things. I’m a practising dentist. [00:01:15] Still see my patients once a week. I’ve got a group of them I’ve been looking after for years. I’m the chief [00:01:20] dental officer for the insurance business. And in that role, I helped to design our dental insurance products, [00:01:25] sell them into large companies, and then look at how we can streamline [00:01:30] the journey for anybody that has that insurance that might want to come into our practices. And [00:01:35] then with the director of dentistry role, I think my job is to I I’m [00:01:40] the senior clinician that sits on the board. I lead our clinical advisory team, um, [00:01:45] and our role as a gang of four, if you like. Um, we represent the, [00:01:50] the dental community in terms of dentists, hygiene therapists, nurses, [00:01:55] and I oversee the group. But our job is to build a community [00:02:00] to try and help people believe in, in what the value of Bupa can [00:02:05] bring to them. But also, we just, you know, we want to be the number one choice of employer. And our [00:02:10] role as a for clinical professionals, our role as a group of four is to do that.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:02:15] your your career, I mean, I remember you from the Barbican. Dental days. Yeah. [00:02:20] Which I was, I was still studying but, but by the time I, I [00:02:25] was thinking about opening a practice, you were putting these sort of [00:02:30] mobile units outside of like bank headquarters and [00:02:35] then and then doing the deal with the bank to get people to, to go there instead of the other dentists [00:02:40] because it saves time.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. That wasn’t actually me. Was that in terms of the mobile units? [00:02:45]

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Neil Sikka: But I had a very similar idea. So my story, [00:02:50] I suppose, started, I was working in the East End of London, Bethnal Green, you know, the heart [00:02:55] of the East End. And I was working in an NHS practice in the days [00:03:00] before CQC.

Payman Langroudi: Associate.

Neil Sikka: As an associate. Um, and my [00:03:05] room was probably not much bigger than this table. Um and I, it was so small that I [00:03:10] couldn’t have a door to go in. I had saloon doors. So I was an original cowboy dentist [00:03:15] and people used to fall into my chair and I literally would sit behind [00:03:20] the chair all day and patients would just come in. I’d see 40, 50 patients a day. [00:03:25] It was that kind of practice. You probably remember those. Yeah. And it was I mean, [00:03:30] it was hard. It was tough. And it was really difficult to provide the kind [00:03:35] of treatment that I wanted to. And I remember walking out the door one day and [00:03:40] I looked up and I saw the Tower of Canary Wharf going up. And I just [00:03:45] had that kind of moment. And I thought, I know what I’m going to do. I’m going to set up a dental practice [00:03:50] in Canary Wharf, and then I’m going to approach all the companies in the area and [00:03:55] effectively set up a dental plan for those companies so that all those employees can come [00:04:00] to my practice for treatment. And that was my kind of dream. Age 2425. [00:04:05] Um, it didn’t quite work out just like that [00:04:10] because I did approach Canary Wharf and they said, have you ever run a practice before? [00:04:15] We’re looking at some very high quality services for our environment.

Neil Sikka: You know, we’ve got investment [00:04:20] banks, law firms, blue chip firms of the world. Yeah. And I said, well, [00:04:25] no, I haven’t. But I’ve got this ambition. Anyway, I managed to find out. [00:04:30] They said that they were going to put a big health centre together and Dental was going to be part of an integrated health [00:04:35] centre. So I managed to find the name of the company that was potentially going to get the contract. [00:04:40] And I approached them and they said, okay, you know, you’ve got some good ideas, [00:04:45] but you’re 25 years old. We want to try you out effectively. They didn’t say that. Set [00:04:50] up in our building in the Barbican. We’ve got a health centre there. Let’s see how you get on. And that’s [00:04:55] how I started. And um and eventually they set up in Canary Wharf [00:05:00] and that’s how I started my business. And I just, you would literally, I would set up a [00:05:05] practice, go to the local blue chip firms and local firms as well. Um, [00:05:10] I had a dental plan that I had created, I would sell that into the, into [00:05:15] the company.

Neil Sikka: And then those employees for a set monthly fee would receive [00:05:20] services of my practices so I could grow private treatment very quickly. [00:05:25] Um, and also I, you know, I don’t know if, you know, in the early, late [00:05:30] 80s, 80s, early 90s dentistry was private [00:05:35] dentistry was the preserve of the West End of London, a few pockets around the country. Yeah, but [00:05:40] there wasn’t much private dentistry going on. And I felt that it was I [00:05:45] felt that it was quite elitist, if I’m honest. People would look down on you almost if [00:05:50] you were, you know, not if they were working in the West End. And I thought, that’s not the way it should be. We all qualify [00:05:55] the same. Yeah. Um, so I thought by introducing this way of [00:06:00] providing affordable private treatment on the doorstep for employees and [00:06:05] employers, I could make it much more egalitarian. And so everybody [00:06:10] from the CEO down to, you know, your doorman could have access [00:06:15] to treatment for a set monthly fee. And that’s how I grew it. So that grew over 20 [00:06:20] years. I had ten practices in the end. Um, and, you know, and [00:06:25] that’s how I grew the.

Payman Langroudi: Business, the mobile practices wasn’t.

Neil Sikka: You. The mobile was, um, was not me.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:06:30] was not called Barbican as well.

Neil Sikka: No, that was called mobile. I think it was called Mobile Dental Services. [00:06:35] And that was run by a chap called Mark Trupp at the time.

Payman Langroudi: So how quickly did it get to ten [00:06:40] practices?

Neil Sikka: I think I started in 92 and [00:06:45] I think by 2002 I was at ten practices, but I opened them [00:06:50] all organically. I didn’t make any acquisitions. I would spot a place where I felt [00:06:55] there wasn’t, um, much dentistry being provided, or there was a new building [00:07:00] going up with thousands of employees going in, and that’s how I would approach it.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:07:05] sort of self-finance. You didn’t have.

Neil Sikka: Self-financed. I didn’t take any debt because as I grew, [00:07:10] I, you know, you know, you can lease equipment. You just have to pay for the fit out. And [00:07:15] I just did it very gradually, if I’m honest.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so that gradual is it, it’s a one a year every [00:07:20] year. And I guess you were sinking every dollar back in.

Neil Sikka: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Busy time. And [00:07:25] it wasn’t a time where I mean now it’s a very common story, but back then it was kind of rare for multiple [00:07:30] practice. Yeah. At that rate.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. It’s [00:07:35] um. Yeah, I mean, but I had a great team and also geographically I was only in [00:07:40] central London, so I was in the city, I was in the Canary in Canary Wharf and I was in the West [00:07:45] End and that was it.

Payman Langroudi: And what do you think your value add was? I mean, was it the fact that [00:07:50] you were good at going to the companies and getting that deal done? Or [00:07:55] are you a, you know, an expert at operations?

Neil Sikka: I think, you [00:08:00] know, I mean, you’ve run your own practice in the past. Do you know what it’s like you have to learn on the job. Yeah. [00:08:05] And you I just had this idea. Yeah. Of I did not I didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever it took.

Neil Sikka: At the [00:08:10] time. Yeah. And it’s like you just fall into it, don’t you? And you go, well I’m not, I don’t know [00:08:15] if I’m a salesman, but I’ve got this idea and I think it sells itself. I didn’t think I had to sell it to anybody [00:08:20] because it was so obvious, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Um, but I mean, for instance, you’ve got Barclays [00:08:25] Bank in Canary Wharf. How did you figure out who to go to and what to say?

Neil Sikka: And [00:08:30] so in those days, you could get hold of the name of the HR director, [00:08:35] the human resources director, or, um, sometimes it was in the people team. They had different [00:08:40] titles, but it was basically the person that was running the, the benefits for, [00:08:45] for the staff, for staff, and you could get in the name and the number [00:08:50] in those days, try and do it now. It’s almost impossible to get through because there’s so [00:08:55] many gateways.

Payman Langroudi: That you got to.

Neil Sikka: Pass through. But in those days, I could literally make a call. And [00:09:00] that was before email, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that’s literally.

Payman Langroudi: Said the [00:09:05] pitch just like that, just the way you just described it.

Neil Sikka: So what’s interesting is how it first started [00:09:10] was that, um, I rented premises from a company called Barbican [00:09:15] Health. Mhm. Um, and they would give us the access [00:09:20] to their corporate clients. Um and that’s how it first started. But then eventually we [00:09:25] would do our own marketing and literally just kind of get on the phone and say, [00:09:30] we’ve got this idea. Can we send you some details? We’re just around the corner. And often it would start by going, we’ll, [00:09:35] we’ll try you out. Um, so what I’d say is anybody [00:09:40] with an emergency from your company, you call us, we will see them on the day. Anyone [00:09:45] in trouble. And that’s the way that. And we had that as a that was our policy throughout. [00:09:50] Actually, that was one of the best ways we grew the business, because we promised that we would move the diary [00:09:55] around to make sure that we would get someone out of pain. And I think if you do that, you’ve got a patient for life. [00:10:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, for sure, for sure.

Neil Sikka: Because they value the fact that you’ve, you know, you’ve gone the extra mile [00:10:05] for them. I really, it was a very personal business and I like baby.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. [00:10:10] And I like to know the fact that I knew everybody in the business. And I found that I was starting to go into [00:10:15] practices and I didn’t recognise new employees that were being taken on. And I kind of thought, [00:10:20] oh, what’s, you know, what’s happening? Am I losing control? Or and it wasn’t so much that I thought. And then I [00:10:25] looked at the structure of the business. We didn’t have any central costs. So I outsourced finance, [00:10:30] admin, PR, marketing. But I felt that if we were going [00:10:35] to get to the next level from ten practices, we probably had to be 50 because we’d have [00:10:40] to justify the central costs that were then going to come in. Yeah. And I thought, if I’m going to set up [00:10:45] that team, then I’ve got to really leverage the business and grow it considerably. And [00:10:50] I probably had been doing it nearly 20 years by then, and I thought, maybe I’m ready [00:10:55] for a new challenge. It’s really interesting because people always say, well, how did you know who to sell [00:11:00] to? And I think that’s always a, an interesting point because, [00:11:05] because it depends what you want out of it. Now, I knew I didn’t want [00:11:10] to leave the business. I wanted to continue to be heavily involved. So for me, the [00:11:15] number one thing that was important was aligning our culture and values. What type of [00:11:20] business was going to take on, you know, my practices, [00:11:25] but also my people. So how are my people going to be treated [00:11:30] in this new business?

Payman Langroudi: But so this alignment of values factor, [00:11:35] how how important was that? I mean, was that massive? No. But was there another [00:11:40] group offering you more money? But the but the, uh, those things weren’t in [00:11:45] place. Yeah. Was it something like that?

Neil Sikka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I, you potentially left [00:11:50] money on the table to make sure that your team were looked after properly. Yeah. That’s [00:11:55] nice.

Neil Sikka: And so to me, it was about longevity. It was about alignment [00:12:00] of cultural values. And you know what the future might hold. And also that synergy of the [00:12:05] approach. So, you know, they they’ve actually termed it now where you [00:12:10] have, um, where you have a company that has a product and provision and they [00:12:15] align the two, they call it a pay vida. Mhm. Um, and I’m sure you’re aware of that, but [00:12:20] at the time that’s fair. That was fairly new. Um, [00:12:25] and the fact that I was doing, and the fact that Bupa Bupa was doing it was very aligned into the [00:12:30] way that I could see the growth of the business. So that was also important as well, because I wanted [00:12:35] to see that my own practices and my own people could grow and develop in a way [00:12:40] that I probably couldn’t give them. Yeah. Um, you know, within a much larger infrastructure. [00:12:45]

Payman Langroudi: And what were the headlines as far as the size of the business, number of people, number [00:12:50] of patients turnover at that point? Well.

Neil Sikka: We were, um, [00:12:55] as I say, ten practices. We were seeing about 50,000 patients a year. [00:13:00] Um, I think we may have been about 160 people across [00:13:05] all practices. So, you know, it wasn’t big by modern [00:13:10] terms of what a corporate and it was, but it was just about manageable in [00:13:15] the structure that we had. Um, and yeah, [00:13:20] and, you know, and we were general Dental, but we, we started to bring in the specialisms [00:13:25] as time went on and as more specialisms developed, because initially there were [00:13:30] very few specialists around in the early 90s, it, it’s grown more and more as time [00:13:35] has gone on. And so you had your specialist only practices that you would [00:13:40] refer your patients to. But like all practices, we started to bring that in-house as [00:13:45] time went on as well. So we wanted to provide a really comprehensive service within [00:13:50] our own ecosystem, if you like.

Payman Langroudi: What interests me, though, is [00:13:55] when I look at your LinkedIn and I see this just cereal [00:14:00] social enterprise serial entrepreneur, [00:14:05] you know, there’s so many things you’ve done since that time that, you know, the [00:14:10] next man might have sat back, had a holiday and [00:14:15] done nothing. But but you keep on doing things. And really what I’m interested [00:14:20] in is that sort of relationship between sort of risk and reward. And I don’t necessarily [00:14:25] even mean financial risk and financial reward. I mean, when a new thing comes along, [00:14:30] you talk to someone somewhere and they say, I don’t know. I looked at one of your things. [00:14:35] It was like trying to make the nursing training pathway better. Yeah. [00:14:40] If someone said that to me, I would look at just the pain [00:14:45] points in that the next man would look at the sort of the opportunities [00:14:50] in that. And so it looks to me like you wouldn’t have done all the things that [00:14:55] you’ve done if you weren’t quite an optimist, number one, but also not [00:15:00] the kind of person who dwells on risk.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. I [00:15:05] mean, I think when I was younger, you didn’t I didn’t think about risk because I think what do I have to risk? You know, at the end [00:15:10] of the day, you had nothing to lose. You know, I, I mean, in those days, you could set up [00:15:15] a practice. I sold my car and set up the first practice. That was it. You [00:15:20] know.

Payman Langroudi: You get 100% loan, 110, 110% loan, I remember.

Neil Sikka: Right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Neil Sikka: So? [00:15:25] So there was no risk to me. I said, well, what have I got to lose? It’s all or nothing. I mean, I was 25 years old. I [00:15:30] wouldn’t think like that now, but I think from [00:15:35] a you talk about the community aspect? I think it’s always been something that’s been close to my heart [00:15:40] trying to, um, I think, you know, I think we’re in a really privileged position [00:15:45] as a clinician, as dentist in healthcare, you know, we’re in a real position to be able to [00:15:50] improve people’s lives. Yeah. And I think when you can do that and really make a difference [00:15:55] to people that just don’t have access to care, um, it’s [00:16:00] really life fulfilling. And that’s why I’ve, I’ve been involved in, [00:16:05] you’ll have seen that I’ve done stuff in India.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So go through that one. There’s a train, the train.

Neil Sikka: So [00:16:10] I mean, it was a simple thing. There’s a train in India called um the Lifeline Express [00:16:15] and it’s a hospital train that parks up in the sidings of a, you [00:16:20] know, you know, that the railways in, in India are the backbone of the country. [00:16:25] Everybody who, you know, the amount of people that travel on trains in India. So [00:16:30] what the train is, is they park on the sidings for, for about six months and they have a hospital, they have [00:16:35] eye surgery, orthopaedic surgery, they have operating theatres on board. [00:16:40] And I saw this and I thought, they don’t have a Dental carriage on the back, do they? So I wrote to them [00:16:45] and I said, I’ve got this idea about, you know, providing dentistry alongside everything [00:16:50] else. And they went, oh, we don’t think there’s a call for it. And I thought, really? Anyway, they [00:16:55] wrote back to me about six months later and said, we thought about your idea and we thought, we’ll try it out. [00:17:00] And we were inundated. Um, well, I wasn’t surprised really, because, you know, [00:17:05] it’s not like there’s an NHS in India providing dental care. It’s the last thing that [00:17:10] people think about. So I said, if you’re willing, you can pay for a dental carriage. We’ll put a couple of [00:17:15] chairs in there, come out for the inauguration treat, treat, um, meet the team and [00:17:20] provide some treatment. What I wanted to do and what I’ve always done in these situations [00:17:25] is I want to plug into an organisation that already has a really good infrastructure where dentistry [00:17:30] could be something you can add on, but it’s not something that once I’ve provided [00:17:35] the initial funding that I have to continue to be involved in, because they can they can [00:17:40] run with it.

Neil Sikka: And that’s what’s happened with the Lifeline Express. They’ve got the Dental carriage on. They, [00:17:45] um, they now they used to accept um international [00:17:50] volunteers. Um and so I used to have a kind of a spreadsheet of people that want to [00:17:55] get involved. And I’d let them know when there was a project going on because they changed their, their, um, their positioning [00:18:00] in the country and, but they plan it quite a long way ahead. Um, [00:18:05] and so, um, they, what they do now [00:18:10] is that they plan ahead, contact the local um, hospital, dental hospital, [00:18:15] college and get medical and dental volunteers to come and work because [00:18:20] they have to, when they’re doing orthopaedic surgery or something like that, you’ve got quite a lot of planning. You’ve got to know your cases, [00:18:25] you’ve got to know what you’re going to, who you’re going to treat, what you’re going to do about aftercare. All these things [00:18:30] are really important, um, less so for dentistry if you’re doing, which is pretty [00:18:35] much what we’re doing is emergency care because the call, you know, is so large, so [00:18:40] many people don’t get any access to care. And when you see the people that you treat there that have been [00:18:45] suffering and, and some of them have walked for miles and miles to get there. [00:18:50] And then they’re sitting in a 50 degree heat outside on the platform, waiting [00:18:55] for us in a nice air conditioned carriage to come out and get them in. You realise how [00:19:00] important it is to them. So, um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You paid [00:19:05] for that personally. Yeah. And just as an act of philanthropy. [00:19:10]

Neil Sikka: Well, yeah. But it was something that gave me incredible joy to be involved [00:19:15] in.

Payman Langroudi: I’m sure it did. Um, have you heard about giving directly?

Neil Sikka: No. [00:19:20] Is that a is that a platform or is it a.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a charity. But the idea is that, um, [00:19:25] that guy who’s got the toothache if you give him. $20 [00:19:30] directly. Give him the cash.

Neil Sikka: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: $20? [00:19:35] Yeah, he’ll spend it better than you can. Yeah. [00:19:40] Because he’ll he’ll go find the local dentist guy who’ll pull his tooth out for $2. [00:19:45] Right. But the cost of you and that train and all that is so much [00:19:50] higher than giving each of those patients that you treated $20 [00:19:55] to go and find their own. Now, now, of course you don’t. You don’t actually feel the [00:20:00] difference that you’re making. Yeah. But interesting idea that, you know, that me [00:20:05] going over somewhere, paying for something and providing [00:20:10] the service that I think people need is a lot less efficient than me dropping [00:20:15] $20 in someone’s hand.

Neil Sikka: I would probably challenge that. I mean, I [00:20:20] paid for the carriage and the and the units to go on there, but we’ve treated over half a million people. [00:20:25] So I think what I would have to spend to give [00:20:30] people a certain amount of money to then spend on their teeth would be far more than the half a [00:20:35] million people that we’ve treated on the Lifeline Express. And also, you’ve got [00:20:40] to remember you, you give someone $20, how do you know they’re going to spend it on their teeth?

Payman Langroudi: Well, you know, it’s [00:20:45] not for you to decide that.

Neil Sikka: That’s also.

Payman Langroudi: True. It is not for you to decide.

Neil Sikka: I [00:20:50] suppose for me, it’s like, you know, I have a skill, I have knowledge and [00:20:55] I have experience, and I want to use that for the benefit of those people [00:21:00] that can access it. So for me, I can give that money to [00:21:05] anyone anyway, regardless, but I’d want to use my skills and experience to [00:21:10] benefit people.

Payman Langroudi: Of course I get it. Of course I get it. I just think it’s an interesting thing, [00:21:15] you know, that if you do the do the maths, that you’re challenging the maths. Of course, half [00:21:20] a million sounds like a lot of humans.

Neil Sikka: It’s a lot of people and they’re incredibly efficient. I [00:21:25] think I started it in 2010. So 15 years.

Speaker 4: It’s not that long for half [00:21:30] a million people.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s very interesting. So do you still go back or not?

Neil Sikka: I haven’t [00:21:35] been back for a few years now, not since Covid. But I do other things. Um, [00:21:40] I worked on a, I volunteered and I didn’t provide anything to that [00:21:45] thing called mercy ships. I don’t know if you’ve heard of mercy ships, where they go around Africa and they park up [00:21:50] this massive great cruise liner, which has incredible funding, amazing operating [00:21:55] theatres. I mean, that is one very slick operation. And what they do is they take [00:22:00] over, um, part of a hospital on land and turn it into a kind of a ten surgery, [00:22:05] mobile practice, dental practice, ten chairs. And then people fly in for 2 or 3 weeks [00:22:10] and give their time. I mean, that’s an incredible experience. I was, I was rude because [00:22:15] you all stay on the on the ship. And I was rooming with a plastic surgeon from California [00:22:20] who had come in and flown in for a month to treat non-malignant tumours. [00:22:25] Surgical tumours that in in the West you would treat immediately. [00:22:30] But they sit there for years and years and years in Africa. So that’s you know, but the [00:22:35] I think and I haven’t done a lot of international stuff more recently because [00:22:40] we’re very embedded with Dentaid. So Dentaid [00:22:45] is another charity that I supported right at the beginning 2005, 2006, and [00:22:50] I helped them to design a chair that’s still in use.

Neil Sikka: Because if you imagine most, most [00:22:55] charities, when they go and do these, um, these kind of camps, [00:23:00] they’ll be using plastic chairs and whatever. And actually it’s very difficult when you’re trying to extract [00:23:05] teeth or you’re trying to do treatment when you haven’t got any support behind you. So we designed a chair [00:23:10] which had a which, which you headrest, a headrest at the back, but also flat seating as well. [00:23:15] So it was almost like a reclining chair, but it was hand winched. And [00:23:20] they still sell that chair now in Dentaid. But we’re I mean, I’ve always been a massive [00:23:25] supporter of Dental and, and, um, volunteered with them, but with [00:23:30] my relationship through Bupa, they are now our main charity partner for Bupa Dental [00:23:35] Care. So we’ve funded, um, a solar panel powered unit, which is much [00:23:40] more lightweight that can go into much more, um, difficult to reach places, um, [00:23:45] city centres where, you know, they’ve got, they’ve got paid massive, they get charged massive congestion [00:23:50] charges unless they’ve got a um, a Ulez compliant um van. [00:23:55] We provide volunteers all over the country and that relationship.

Payman Langroudi: Through Bupa. [00:24:00]

Neil Sikka: Through Bupa.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: So, you know, that was the way that I saw it when I came, when I, when I first we [00:24:05] created a foundation charity committee, which is funded by a, a big [00:24:10] kind of main foundation, but we have our own dental charity foundation. And [00:24:15] I pushed and I became the chair of it initially. And, um, and I said, [00:24:20] I think this is the perfect match because we have 8000 people [00:24:25] all over the country. Um, they need volunteers all the time. And [00:24:30] we can provide those opportunities to our staff, to our clinicians, to our staff, [00:24:35] to volunteer to work on these units. And I regularly volunteer with them.

Payman Langroudi: So what’s the typical [00:24:40] time amount of time that a clinician might give to that?

Neil Sikka: Well, not as much [00:24:45] as you’d like, I suppose, but a week. No, we just do a day a day literally. Because you know, [00:24:50] the whole point initially they were all a Dentaid were only based really in the South, um [00:24:55] around Southampton way. Um, but as they’ve grown, they started with just one unit. They’ve [00:25:00] now got 12 mobile units going all over the country. We’ve taken them to Northern Ireland, to [00:25:05] our practices there and our volunteers um have got involved there. We’ve now got a northern hub [00:25:10] where we’re providing treatment in Yorkshire and further north. And they’re all, you [00:25:15] know, they’re like these, all these vans going all over the country now providing free treatment to the homeless [00:25:20] and the vulnerable. Our job is to support them financially, provide volunteers, [00:25:25] and what they do is the logistics. They do all the organisation, they do the liaison [00:25:30] with the charities. Because ultimately, if you’re a clinician and you turn up, you want to treat patients, [00:25:35] you don’t want to be sitting there, you’re giving your time for a day, but you can just give a day. Um, [00:25:40] and they have different camps on different days.

Payman Langroudi: So every dentist knows that they’ve got that opportunity. [00:25:45] If they want to give their time, they can through you and Dental.

Neil Sikka: And [00:25:50] not just the dentists the nurses can volunteer to work on. And also the other [00:25:55] great thing is that they’re always looking for logistics support as well. So people to take medical histories, people [00:26:00] to drive the vans. So you if you’re even if you’re non-clinical, you can [00:26:05] still get involved.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent. So I’ve always thought this year that if there was a easily [00:26:10] accessible way for, let’s just call it young dentists [00:26:15] to give a day, a week, a fortnight to give their skills [00:26:20] loads and loads and loads would do it. And I know there is, but it’s [00:26:25] not publicised properly. I’m going to this thing. Mobile smiles. Charity [00:26:30] thing.

Neil Sikka: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: They they take people to. I don’t know Egypt and Namibia and [00:26:35] so forth. And it’s a kind of a ten day thing and it’s half of it is charity. And [00:26:40] then half of it, they go on holiday sort of thing. And I can understand why [00:26:45] a lot of people would do that if they knew about it. Right.

Neil Sikka: There’s a there’s a lot of that. [00:26:50] There are so many kind of oral health related charities that provide that kind [00:26:55] of opportunity.

Payman Langroudi: Linda Greenwald does something as well.

Neil Sikka: Linda does something, I think. And, um, [00:27:00] is it Mateusz? Uh, he, he has something in Africa that he provides. [00:27:05] There’s something that’s going on in, uh, in the Caribbean. I know that one of our dentists is involved. [00:27:10] There’s so many things like that going on. Bridge to aid, of course, has been around a long time. Even [00:27:15] Dental aid work in Cambodia. They work in Uganda, so they provide there [00:27:20] not just UK based. They’re very international as well in terms of. And they’ve grown enormously. [00:27:25] Um I always think that’s it’s great, but then you’ve got, if [00:27:30] you want to go abroad and do that, that’s, that’s kind of a week of your time. Yeah. As opposed to just say, [00:27:35] oh, I’ll do a day. Yeah. Which is, which is also a great thing to do as well.

Payman Langroudi: Crisis at Christmas. Yes. [00:27:40]

Neil Sikka: Another one. I’ve done that.

Payman Langroudi: Have you. Yeah.

Neil Sikka: I that was in South London Boxing Day. [00:27:45] Um again really you know it’s it’s so easy for us [00:27:50] to do I, but I do it is interesting though when people ask me, I say, [00:27:55] well what actually treatment do you do? I say, well, I do a lot of extractions. And they go especially the some of the younger [00:28:00] dentists that maybe haven’t, you know, if you haven’t had the experience, there’s a potentially [00:28:05] sometimes a little bit of, um, reticence there. Yeah. Um, so [00:28:10] there is that bit of a barrier sometimes because of the type of treatment that you will be providing to a [00:28:15] lot of people.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent. Tell me about your upbringing.

Neil Sikka: So [00:28:20] I’m Indian born and bred. So my dad, uh, [00:28:25] is a was an eye surgeon. He came over from India in the late 50s. [00:28:30] Um, and he did his, he wanted [00:28:35] to do his FRCs, Royal College of Surgeons. So you couldn’t do that in India. [00:28:40] He did that here and he stayed. And he got a consultant post in Lincolnshire.

Payman Langroudi: Before you were [00:28:45] born.

Neil Sikka: Uh, as I was born.

Payman Langroudi: As you were born. So I was you were born here.

Neil Sikka: I was born in Bradford.

Payman Langroudi: Uh huh. [00:28:50]

Neil Sikka: Um, and then at six months old, he got the consultant post. He was a senior registrar in Bradford Royal [00:28:55] Infirmary. He then, um.

Payman Langroudi: Which was no mean feat for an Indian [00:29:00] back then.

Neil Sikka: Well, it was interesting, actually, because, um, you know, there were very [00:29:05] few Asian.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: Um clinicians in the UK at that time. And [00:29:10] I think he was one of two Asian consultants that were appointed. Um, [00:29:15] and I mean, there’s a bit of a story behind that. He was appointed, um, [00:29:20] I think it was 1964. Um. 6364 [00:29:25] and he went for his interview and they appointed him. And then um, [00:29:30] when the local medical community found out that he was Indian, there was a massive uproar [00:29:35] and they tried to remove him, but his, um, he had a, um, [00:29:40] um, he had a reference from a, a professor at [00:29:45] Moorfields and the professor wrote to them and said, you know, you have to give me a very good reason [00:29:50] why you’re not giving him this job, having already appointed him. So he was then reappointed [00:29:55] and he was there for until until he died. And my mum’s [00:30:00] a doctor.

Payman Langroudi: As well as well.

Neil Sikka: We actually have 49 I think at last count, 49 [00:30:05] medically qualified people in our family.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of doctor is your mum?

Neil Sikka: Uh, [00:30:10] she was, she did all sorts. She was GP Psychiatry. Sexual health. [00:30:15] She’s done everything. I mean, she worked. She’s not she’s still alive. She’s. She lives [00:30:20] up in Lincolnshire in the family house. And she was working until Covid aged [00:30:25] 89.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Neil Sikka: And even now I say to her, she says to me, I’d still be working if it wasn’t [00:30:30] for Covid. And I’m like, mum, you’re 93.

Payman Langroudi: So childhood memories of [00:30:35] a kid who’s got two incredibly busy doctor parents. I [00:30:40] guess for you, it just felt normal that, you know, your, your, your [00:30:45] job takes over your life. I mean, but for doctors, it really does. With surgeons [00:30:50] particularly, right?

Neil Sikka: Well, I think I.

Payman Langroudi: Mean, like you didn’t see your dad very much. Well, I, I. [00:30:55]

Neil Sikka: I probably saw him a reasonable amount, but, [00:31:00] um, I think my mum probably worked even longer hours than my dad really. [00:31:05] I mean, but they, they, they juggled it and they made it work. I mean, I had two older sisters [00:31:10] And, um, so I was five years younger than my, my first [00:31:15] sister and then my other sister was, um, nine years older than me, so they were [00:31:20] around a bit. Um, but I was, I was at home until I was 11 [00:31:25] and then I went to boarding school. So then, you know, and I think they did that because they [00:31:30] were my, both my sisters were much older by then. And my, um, [00:31:35] parents probably thought, you know, you’re going to be at home a bit on your own. So this is a good idea. And I, [00:31:40] and I loved, you know, I loved sport, I loved music and being in a boarding school environment [00:31:45] was great for me because I was just kept busy every single moment of the day.

Payman Langroudi: You took to that. Well [00:31:50] did.

Neil Sikka: You? I took to it really well.

Payman Langroudi: Not everyone does.

Neil Sikka: No, no.

Payman Langroudi: Which school was it?

Neil Sikka: A place called Oundle, [00:31:55] which is near Oundle. Oh, UNDN okay. Which is near Peterborough.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [00:32:00] So it’s kind of close to home.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. Two hours? Yeah, two hours from Grimsby, [00:32:05] which is where home was.

Payman Langroudi: And so this sort of, uh, can do attitude [00:32:10] that you’ve got.

Neil Sikka: I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: Can you put it back [00:32:15] to some point in childhood? I mean, were you always that.

Neil Sikka: No, I don’t think I was. [00:32:20]

Payman Langroudi: What was the inflection point that made you turn into this person that, you know, like sort of I [00:32:25] mean, I know maybe you don’t want to be characterised as this, but I would say a risk taker. [00:32:30] You know, someone, someone, someone, someone who thinks outside the box completely and, [00:32:35] you know, get stuff done and then even the charitable side of it. Like what did [00:32:40] you see the roots of that?

Neil Sikka: Well, you know, I was [00:32:45] not particularly academic. I wasn’t particularly, um, [00:32:50] focussed, if I’m honest. Um, but I think it was when I went to university, [00:32:55] I just loved doing dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Where did you study.

Neil Sikka: Uh Leeds and I, [00:33:00] and I loved, um.

Payman Langroudi: I love which student were you? The swotty one. [00:33:05]

Neil Sikka: No, I wouldn’t say I was the most No, [00:33:10] I don’t think so. I was I was kind of middle of the range. I [00:33:15] think I did enough, but I also enjoyed what I did and I loved the practical side of [00:33:20] it. Um, and, and, and I probably loved the people side of it [00:33:25] too. Um, you know.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the side of dentistry I miss since I stopped, you [00:33:30] know. So we were talking before that you still doing one day a week?

Neil Sikka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I was doing one day a week [00:33:35] from around 22,007 to [00:33:40] 2012 when I, when I completely stopped. And, um, [00:33:45] then I had a bad day, basically.

Neil Sikka: And then you thought, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: It enough, you know? [00:33:50] Um, but I do miss it. And it’s only when you fully stop that you realise [00:33:55] what you do miss about the job. Because I’ve had people sitting where you’re sitting telling [00:34:00] me the thing they love about the job. Sometimes the thing I hated most about the job is [00:34:05] what someone else loved about it. For instance, I’m not that interested in Meccano [00:34:10] like, you know.

Neil Sikka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Putting the the full mouth rehab in and it all fits. [00:34:15] I’m sure it’s great when you’ve you’ve the guy behind the whole thing. Yeah. But I was never I never got far enough in the industry [00:34:20] to be that guy.

Neil Sikka: Me neither.

Payman Langroudi: But the conversations [00:34:25] and maybe this is why I do a podcast now, the conversations you have with patients [00:34:30] are golden, but you don’t really realise it when you’re a dentist. [00:34:35] When you’re a dentist, in a way, people are in the way of your job in a way. Um, [00:34:40] but I only realised how much I learned from my patients and, [00:34:45] you know, just the social interaction with all different parts of society [00:34:50] that you get by being a general dentist. Yeah. Whether private or NHS, [00:34:55] you get to meet all different types of people and understand [00:35:00] different things from their lives. And then as the families grow up and all that. [00:35:05] And I was in private dentistry. The nice thing about private dentistry is that talking to your patient is a big part of [00:35:10] the job.

Neil Sikka: Oh, definitely. It’s building that relationship. I mean, I do a day a week now. I’ve [00:35:15] been doing a day a week. It’s funny, every when I, when I started the business, I said, I’m going to give up [00:35:20] a day, a week for every practice that I open. But once I got to five, I said, I’m not giving up any more days. So [00:35:25] I stopped till one day a week, but I didn’t. I haven’t seen any new patients for probably 25 [00:35:30] years.

Payman Langroudi: So they’re just your friends?

Neil Sikka: Well, I mean, I do see a [00:35:35] lot of family and friends, but a lot of them have become friends.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what I mean.

Neil Sikka: As [00:35:40] well, because and it’s really, it takes quite a long time to get to know people. You think. Oh, a couple of years and you [00:35:45] know, you’ll know them really well, but you’re only seeing a snapshot of them. That’s right. For twice a year, [00:35:50] if you, you know, unless you’re doing in depth treatment. Um, but and it takes [00:35:55] that long time, but I’ve got this group now who I just love to see. You know, I love to [00:36:00] hear what they’re up to, how the family’s doing. I see that kids, I see some of their grandkids. [00:36:05] Um, and that’s a, you know, it’s a, and I’m just a solid [00:36:10] general dentist that tries to do the right thing for their patients. I’m not I mean, I have [00:36:15] embraced technology, you know, and I, one of my roles at Bupa is to look at innovation [00:36:20] and how we can apply that, um, efficiently within [00:36:25] our dental practice environment, which is advantageous for our clinicians, but also for our [00:36:30] patients and for the business. Um, so I have, I embrace technology, [00:36:35] but I wouldn’t say I’m like, well, like you said, I don’t do big full mouth rehabs or anything [00:36:40] like that. We’ve got plenty of specialists in the business that can do all that. Um, but I’ve tried [00:36:45] to look after my patients in the right way. The only thing now is I, you know, [00:36:50] when you see someone for 30 years, you start to look at the stuff you did 20 years ago that’s [00:36:55] still there. And you go.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s the best teacher. It’s the best teacher.

Neil Sikka: I’m gonna have to start looking at this [00:37:00] now, stuff that is starting to need replacing.

Payman Langroudi: The best teacher. Yeah. Because [00:37:05] sometimes, I mean, the longest I ever stayed anywhere was three, four years. But even in three, four years, [00:37:10] some stuff failed. Oh, some stuff failed. Yeah. And and it teaches you and it’s interesting. [00:37:15] We have a bit in this podcast. You said you’d listened before about mistakes. Yeah. And to try [00:37:20] and learn from each other’s mistakes a little bit because we tend to hide mistakes [00:37:25] in medical generally. You know, that black box thinking idea, you know that it’s [00:37:30] all about blame in medical, isn’t it?

Speaker 5: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what comes to mind? Let’s [00:37:35] let’s get to that darker part of the pod. What comes to mind mistakes wise clinically? [00:37:40] I think something that changed the way you practice.

Neil Sikka: I think you’re absolutely [00:37:45] right. You learn from your mistakes. And I will often see stuff that I’ve [00:37:50] done even five years ago. And you know what? I can do that better now. So I challenge myself [00:37:55] to come to improve all the time. And if I’m not doing that, [00:38:00] then I’m not doing right by my patients. So but I still have stuff that I’m seeing [00:38:05] that I did 30 years ago that’s still going strong. And my patients, especially when I say [00:38:10] to them, you know, this is only going to last ten years. And they, they laugh at me when they come and say, you’re not making any money out of me, Neil. [00:38:15] That’s okay. But I think what’s interesting about mistakes is [00:38:20] the approach to being a clinician. And I think we talk about [00:38:25] clinical excellence as being the most important thing. But I kind of I [00:38:30] think what I’ve learned as time has gone on, and especially having to run [00:38:35] my own business with, you know, lots of clinicians from different types of backgrounds [00:38:40] and different types of approaches is not so much about clinical excellence, but [00:38:45] how you become an excellent clinician. And, you know, we’re [00:38:50] in the medical profession, love our alliterative mnemonics. You know, we [00:38:55] remember the facial nerves and the cranial nerves and the things that we can’t repeat [00:39:00] now and how we remembered them.

Neil Sikka: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but I always think now, and I try [00:39:05] and I use that, I still use that same approach and I think about what makes an [00:39:10] excellent clinician as opposed to clinical excellence. And I think about, you know, obviously your clinical skills have got [00:39:15] to be really important. But then I think your commercial skills, you’ve got to understand your [00:39:20] value to yourself, your value to the patient and your value to the business that you work [00:39:25] in. Um, I think you’ve got to, as I said, you’ve got to constantly want [00:39:30] to improve. So that’s not just about looking at your work and saying, how could have [00:39:35] I done that better? A few years down the line. But also CPD is really important. And [00:39:40] then I think the fourth one is communication. You know, you’ve got to be [00:39:45] a good communicator or learn how to be a good communicator, a good listener to your patients, [00:39:50] but also to the people that you work with. You can’t be a good team member unless you’re a good communicator. [00:39:55] And I think finally, compassion. I think we’re in a profession [00:40:00] where we have to be compassionate. And if we can do those five things, I think those are the the [00:40:05] basic tenets of being an excellent clinician.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But I want some examples of where one [00:40:10] of those things failed.

Neil Sikka: Oh, God, I probably miss it. I mean, I can’t remember [00:40:15] the last time I’ve actually looked at a treatment as, as completely failed apart [00:40:20] from actually, no, that’s not true. Um, there was an implant, um, [00:40:25] that had failed implants. No, I don’t place I restore, but I can remember [00:40:30] recently where an implant had failed on a patient. And the reason why it [00:40:35] had probably failed was because I hadn’t realised what a bruxas they were. And so [00:40:40] I produced a cram, put it in place and the implant looked perfect. Um, I thought [00:40:45] the restoration was perfect. A year later, the implant basically fell out. Um, [00:40:50] and looking at his bite again, um, it was probably [00:40:55] down to the fact that I hadn’t properly adjusted the occlusion to allow [00:41:00] for his bruxism. So that’s a simple.

Payman Langroudi: The cause of most mistakes, even [00:41:05] in bleaching.

Neil Sikka: But then you are still learning.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. The most important thing in [00:41:10] bleaching is bruxism. Can you believe it? Ridiculous. It just gets in the way, doesn’t [00:41:15] it? At every turn. Yeah.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. And probably one of the most misunderstood [00:41:20] elements of dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: So, okay, there was that case. [00:41:25] Do you want to talk about business mistakes, like in the Barbican [00:41:30] years? Did you. Was there what was the darkest day?

Neil Sikka: I [00:41:35] think one of the darkest days is one of my corporate [00:41:40] clients rang up, really concerned about the [00:41:45] treatment that one of their employees had received from one of my dentists. And there was [00:41:50] an underlying theme that they might pull the whole contract, even though I had 2000 employees on [00:41:55] a Dental plan.

Payman Langroudi: Over one patient, what was the situation?

Neil Sikka: Oh, [00:42:00] the dentist had, um, fitted a crown post crown and said, [00:42:05] oh, this will last you forever. And it fell out.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, exactly. [00:42:10]

Neil Sikka: Never say that. Especially about a.

Payman Langroudi: Crown.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. And [00:42:15] it would come out and the but the patient had kicked up a fuss [00:42:20] and they were very senior in the organisation. And so that was quite [00:42:25] a dark moment. And I managed to to pull it back and um they remained a client [00:42:30] for the rest of the time. Um and I think that was quite tough.

Payman Langroudi: It must [00:42:35] have been a darker moment than that though.

Neil Sikka: I think.

Payman Langroudi: Did you not have like a, I don’t know, a senior member [00:42:40] of staff suddenly leave?

Neil Sikka: Well, I had a, I had a quite a difficult period. [00:42:45] I had a, um, you know, I had a partner at the beginning and we [00:42:50] didn’t get on. Um and it was for both of us, I think it was, it was a [00:42:55] dark time. It wasn’t just me. Um, and I think we just weren’t well matched. We [00:43:00] were put together, we didn’t really know each other. And um, you know, that was quite [00:43:05] a dark time to try and extricate both of ourselves in the [00:43:10] right way. Um, from that.

Payman Langroudi: How many practices in were you before that [00:43:15] happened?

Neil Sikka: Uh, two practices.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so very early on. And were you 50/50 partners? [00:43:20] Mhm. Yeah. I guess that must have been a challenge, right?

Neil Sikka: But I, you know, we sorted [00:43:25] it out, moved forward.

Payman Langroudi: You’re no longer friends. You [00:43:30] were never friends in the first place.

Neil Sikka: I think we were ever really friends, but, um.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know how some people [00:43:35] can do business with anybody? And then other people, myself [00:43:40] included, can only do business with people you fully trust? Um, [00:43:45] do you know what I mean by that? I’ve got some friends there. Like they’re on the they’ve got [00:43:50] a share in 1214 companies. And I’m like, well, how the hell did you [00:43:55] come across 14 different people like that, that you fully trust and trust isn’t even part of it. [00:44:00] They just get their bit done. Yeah. And they make sure everyone else [00:44:05] does their bit and that’s that end of it. Whereas for me, it feels like almost [00:44:10] like a marriage and you have to fully trust this person.

Neil Sikka: And, and yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Probably a more [00:44:15] unsuccessful way of living.

Neil Sikka: I’m a bit of the, I probably, I learned early on actually, [00:44:20] um, from somebody that and I was like, you, I thought you have to [00:44:25] get on really well and have to be buddies and kind of friends. Yeah. With people that you do [00:44:30] business with. And I learned from very on because I, there was somebody I was negotiating with, um, [00:44:35] who was really, I didn’t, didn’t like very much at all. And I don’t think he liked me [00:44:40] and, and um, he said that to me once he said, he said, the thing is, Neil, you don’t really [00:44:45] understand. Um, and I was quite young at the time and he said, you don’t understand Neil. You know, you [00:44:50] don’t have to like the people you do business with. You just have to get the job done. Yeah. And I kind of [00:44:55] learned that because I’m not going out for dinner with you. I’m not going out for a beer. As long as we are both, um, [00:45:00] fulfilling our needs to that relationship, that’s all [00:45:05] you need.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: Um, and I think in [00:45:10] certain situations that works really well, but I think it does help a lot [00:45:15] with the people that you work with within a business. So the people that you employ, for instance, [00:45:20] whatever that you, you like and trust them, I think that’s a different relationship than, [00:45:25] um, you know, kind of business relationships in terms of contract relationships [00:45:30] with external providers.

Payman Langroudi: How did you take to going from, you know, a [00:45:35] small business to a gigantic business like Bupa? Did you, you know, manage the [00:45:40] sort of politics, call it the corporate speak the [00:45:45] way that I don’t know, in huge organisations, you really aren’t free to say what you want. Whereas [00:45:50] in your own business you were ahead of that business. You probably. I did, [00:45:55] you did it go easily for you or did you find it quite funny?

Neil Sikka: My wife is the one that says [00:46:00] that you. I find it really surprising that you transferred from being an owner manager of quite a large business [00:46:05] to being, um, you know, an employee effectively within [00:46:10] a and, and I have to say, I, [00:46:15] I don’t know if it would have worked for me 25 years ago because I was quite [00:46:20] headstrong in terms of what I wanted to do, where I was going, how I was going to get there. But I [00:46:25] loved being part of a team. Now, you know, I’m a cog in a wheel as opposed [00:46:30] to the only person that’s effectively driving the car.

Payman Langroudi: You you don’t get sleepless nights [00:46:35] like you used to, I suppose. Not in the.

Neil Sikka: Same.

Payman Langroudi: Way.

Neil Sikka: I probably you know, it’s interesting you [00:46:40] say that I probably, um, I never used to worry at all. [00:46:45]

Payman Langroudi: I probably it’s not within you.

Neil Sikka: I think it’s I think with age you become more of a worrier. [00:46:50] I don’t know, maybe I don’t know, but sometimes I’m more anxious than I probably used to be about [00:46:55] much bigger things.

Payman Langroudi: Really? Really. Yeah. That’s interesting.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. So it’s, it is [00:47:00] interesting. But I, I, you know, I really enjoy being part of an organisation [00:47:05] that I love being part of. I mean, for me, the biggest thing about Bupa is it [00:47:10] doesn’t have shareholders doesn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Pay.

Neil Sikka: Dividends.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a very different corporate isn’t it?

Neil Sikka: A very different structure. And [00:47:15] that’s what I love about it. It means that we are there trying to really [00:47:20] at the bottom line, when you know, our strapline is longer, happier, healthier lives, brave, caring, [00:47:25] responsible, um, and ultimately it permeates the fact [00:47:30] that we don’t have shareholders, we don’t pay dividends. That idea permeates throughout the whole business [00:47:35] because we’re not just doing it for the sake of these shareholders. They’re getting paid all this money at the top. [00:47:40] So it all goes back into the business for the benefit. So I really like that. [00:47:45] Um, you know, it’s a wonderful experience. So for me, it’s, it’s been, [00:47:50] it’s not been a difficult transition in many ways. And I think it’s [00:47:55] the funniest thing is I think a lot of people find difficult is when they own a practice [00:48:00] and then they sell it and they still working in that practice and things aren’t done the way that they want them to be done. [00:48:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. The classic. Right.

Neil Sikka: It’s funny, I was like, so I still work in the same [00:48:10] practice that I, I put in place. I merged a couple of practices about 15 years [00:48:15] ago in that same building as the one that I work in, in central London, in Moorgate. And [00:48:20] now, and even when I, as soon as I sold it, it was like, well, that’s not [00:48:25] my problem. Now when something I don’t have to deal with that. And I was like, actually, that’s quite a breath of fresh air. Yeah, [00:48:30] I can come in. I concentrate on my dentistry. If there’s a problem, I highlight it, [00:48:35] but it’s not my job to deal with it. Whereas it was always my job.

Payman Langroudi: Ultimately [00:48:40] was your.

Neil Sikka: Job. Everything was my job. Yeah. You know, the buck always stopped with me at some stage. [00:48:45] Yeah. So you had to be on top of it all. But we have a very large organisation [00:48:50] now, so 8000 people in Bupa dental care alone.

Payman Langroudi: What do you struggle with [00:48:55] at Bupa?

Neil Sikka: What do I struggle with? [00:49:00]

Payman Langroudi: Not you only.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. I think, you know, I think it’s the nature of any large organisation [00:49:05] is agility. Yeah. Get things done quickly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: We’ve [00:49:10] often got to jump through many more hoops than I’d like to implement something, [00:49:15] put a pilot in place, put a new product in. That kind [00:49:20] of stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Is used to it now.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I accept it and [00:49:25] I understand the reasons why. I mean, our brand, you know, we are the leading healthcare particularly strong. [00:49:30]

Payman Langroudi: It’s a particularly.

Neil Sikka: It’s also means we’ve got, we have a responsibility [00:49:35] to ensure that it stays strong. Yeah. And that means our governance and our compliance [00:49:40] and our, you know, our processes have to be such that we don’t put the [00:49:45] brand at risk. And so as an entrepreneur, I’m like, [00:49:50] come on, let’s just get this done and let’s just try it in a couple of practices and move on. You know, let’s do this. [00:49:55] But our processes don’t allow us to do that because our head is above the parapet. [00:50:00] You know, we’re easily shot down. And you know, if some if someone’s [00:50:05] going to go for anyone in terms of regulation and compliance, they’re going to come for us. So I, [00:50:10] you know, it’s something you have to accept, but it is something that I’ve, I’ve always found challenging [00:50:15] because I.

Payman Langroudi: Want to be difficult, right? Because you’re always acting from a defensive posture rather [00:50:20] than from an attacking posture, you know, as a, as, as the entrepreneur, that [00:50:25] you were 1 to 10 practices in ten years and, you know, great new [00:50:30] ideas and all of that. It’s a sort of an attack. It’s like, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a like, [00:50:35] like I said before, it’s, it’s having sort of the future is brighter than, you know, let’s just go for it. [00:50:40]

Neil Sikka: Well, I’m still the same.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but, you know, you said it doesn’t have any shareholders. But, you know, [00:50:45] the brand is the shareholder in a way, isn’t it? Yeah. And it must be hard to make that transition. [00:50:50] At the same time, you’re right in that it doesn’t feel like another corporate when when when [00:50:55] you talk to the people at Bupa, they’re not just about [00:51:00] the bottom line, which a lot of corporates feel like they are. I mean, but I don’t mean [00:51:05] corporate dentists, even just companies.

Neil Sikka: Yeah, we I mean, we still [00:51:10] have to think about the bottom line. We have to, in order to in like in any business, [00:51:15] if you have to be able to make money to be able to reinvest for the benefit of [00:51:20] everybody. Yeah. But I think for me, I think I, I find that, [00:51:25] um, I, I still will have ideas, I still will push things forward, [00:51:30] but it’s not for me to say, no, you can’t do that. Someone else will say, no, we’re going to do this [00:51:35] this way. And we’re going to do have a policy and process in place to ensure that we do it properly. I say fine, I’ll just keep [00:51:40] bringing the ideas to the table. My job is to look at innovation, look at the future, look [00:51:45] at how the mouth body connection is going to change the way that we deliver dentistry [00:51:50] in the future. There’s somebody else’s job to say, whoa, let’s just [00:51:55] take one step at a time. So, and that’s okay.

Payman Langroudi: So I can I come to that unbelievable training [00:52:00] academy?

Neil Sikka: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, when was it? A month ago or so. Unbelievable. [00:52:05] Thank you. Really beautiful. And and not just pretty. [00:52:10] It wasn’t. It wasn’t about that. It was. It was well thought out. And I came away from it thinking [00:52:15] that, you know, only a Bupa could have done what [00:52:20] you guys did there, you know. So, you know, living up to your USP in [00:52:25] a way, what you said about the insurance product and the dental product, only Bupa can connect those [00:52:30] two dots because you have both sides, right? But knowing how slow things can [00:52:35] be, how long ago was the first time someone said, let’s do a training centre.

Neil Sikka: You know.

Payman Langroudi: How long [00:52:40] did that take?

Neil Sikka: I was surprised at how quick it went, really. I think it was. I remember the [00:52:45] first calls saying, do you think a training centre for us? Because they were looking [00:52:50] at all the business units and they were trying to put it all under one roof in terms of Bupa campus, [00:52:55] we call it. Yeah. And then the training academy would sit under the campus because [00:53:00] and they would and they were looking at all the business units, and they were asking [00:53:05] me and the other members of the team, do you think of Dental Training Academy would be of use and and [00:53:10] why? And basically, you know, we know that, um, there’s [00:53:15] a real challenge in terms of recruiting and retaining clinicians all around the country. And [00:53:20] we’re all competing for that for that pie. Um, so how can we separate ourselves? [00:53:25] So absolutely. I was right behind it. But I think, you know, I think start to finish probably 18 [00:53:30] months.

Payman Langroudi: You’re kidding.

Neil Sikka: No, I was I was blown over. Unless I’ve missed a year, I might have missed a year. It [00:53:35] feels like 18 months to me. It feels like it. And it’s been [00:53:40] you know, it’s been phenomenal because you talked about it. So many people externally have [00:53:45] talked about it. And that’s what we want because we want the industry, the Dental industry to take [00:53:50] us seriously, that we’re committed to really, you know, enabling [00:53:55] our clinical workforce to grow and develop. Um, and this is, you know, this is a [00:54:00] perfect way of doing it. So, you know, I was, I have to say, looking back, it’s probably one [00:54:05] of the quickest things we implemented.

Payman Langroudi: Very impressive. I mean, there was the virtual reality [00:54:10] piece. Yeah, there was this amazing projection mapping room.

Neil Sikka: Oh yeah. That room where you’re just [00:54:15] completely surrounded and then you just touch things on the.

Payman Langroudi: Wall and you move stuff around. And [00:54:20] for me, it wasn’t even what was being shown there. It was the possibilities. [00:54:25] Yeah. You know, like what could happen in a room like that? Because it’s all, I mean, to describe [00:54:30] it to people like the all four walls were a complete projection that you [00:54:35] could have anything touch. You could touch the wall and move anything around. You could get inside [00:54:40] the mouth, rotate things just.

Neil Sikka: From a training perspective. Amazing. Make it really [00:54:45] interactive so anyone can, you know, you can say right Payman you go and tell me, talk to [00:54:50] me, talk me through this, how you do this treatment here. And you have to do it by touching the wall. And [00:54:55] it’s amazing. I mean, the way technology is.

Payman Langroudi: What do you call that room?

Neil Sikka: I’m not sure. [00:55:00] Maybe the interactive room.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not sure. Something like that.

Neil Sikka: Something like that. [00:55:05]

Payman Langroudi: It’s stunning. Really, really, really stunning. Yeah. And I thought I wasn’t expecting things to be [00:55:10] like that. I really wasn’t there was the mannequins that were breathing and.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. [00:55:15] Or fogging up your mirror.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So interesting, so [00:55:20] interesting. So where do you see the future for you? Have [00:55:25] you got a plan or are you just loving life and you’re just.

Neil Sikka: Well, in terms of professionally, [00:55:30] personally.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: I mean, I’m a, I’m in a I’m [00:55:35] in a good place, if I’m honest. I only took this role on a, I see I’ve been the chief dental [00:55:40] officer for 11 years since 2014, but [00:55:45] I only took this new role on um, when Mark decided Mark Allen, I chief executive, [00:55:50] decided that he was going to form this clinical advisory team because he said he didn’t at that time, um, [00:55:55] have any clinical representation on the board. And he realised that we needed a clinical [00:56:00] voice.

Payman Langroudi: It’s crazy when you think about it. Yeah.

Neil Sikka: Well, he was the one that recognised it. We did have previously a clinical director, [00:56:05] but then when they left they didn’t replace in the same way. And they wanted the teams to work in a different way. [00:56:10] So they needed that board representation because otherwise, [00:56:15] you know, you know what it’s like in an operating environment. You need to have an [00:56:20] understanding of, of how things will be applied on a clinical level, not just within a, [00:56:25] within the clinical level, but also how reception teams are going to work with a new [00:56:30] new process, your practice managers, all that kind of stuff. So we need to have that and that’s [00:56:35] been great. So we are that clinical voice to the board. I love that. And that’s [00:56:40] only a year and a half in.

Payman Langroudi: That’s your group of four.

Neil Sikka: That’s my gang of four. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you Annie. [00:56:45]

Neil Sikka: Me. Annie. Annie is our head of general dentistry. Um, Caitlin is our head of hygiene [00:56:50] and therapy, and Amelia is our head of dental nursing. And so we’re the we’re [00:56:55] the for people that represent the clinical workforce to the senior leadership.

Payman Langroudi: And part of your [00:57:00] job is to go out and talk to loads of people and feedback.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. I’ve just spent two days [00:57:05] up in Yorkshire travelling around a whole load of our practices there. Um talking to [00:57:10] clinicians, talking to the practice managers. We had a lovely dinner together, really just [00:57:15] helping, you know, understanding where are the pain points, where are the challenges. You don’t get [00:57:20] that on a teams call. You get it by sitting down and having a proper chat and, and [00:57:25] really investing the time and then feeding that back. Um, as to, [00:57:30] you know, what are we doing? Right. What’s the general feeling on the ground? What should we be [00:57:35] doing differently? So in terms of where I’m going, I mean, I’m hoping that I’ve [00:57:40] got a few more years left in me yet. Um, I’m really enjoying this journey. But the thing is this. [00:57:45] I’m really excited about what the future holds. I mean, I’ve talked about the mouth body connection. I really do [00:57:50] fundamentally believe that dentists, the dental practice is going [00:57:55] to change in future in the way that healthcare is delivered through dentistry. We’re already [00:58:00] doing blood pressure pilots within the NHS, within dental practices, our own dental practices. [00:58:05] We’re starting to do, um, HB one AC, diabetic finger prick testing. [00:58:10]

Neil Sikka: You know, there are there are apparently a million people that are undiagnosed diabetics. We know [00:58:15] the links between oral health and diabetes. So why should we as dental [00:58:20] practices not be at the forefront of that? We look at our genomics project. How [00:58:25] are we going to look at genome sequencing in terms of risk factors for periodontal [00:58:30] health. You know, I was at a lecture at the dentistry show where the lecturer and I hope she won’t [00:58:35] be asked me saying Reena Wadia and she did a brilliant lecture and she said 80% [00:58:40] of the reaction to bacteria and plaque is a host response. And there’s not a lot you can do about [00:58:45] it. So that is genetic. Yeah. So how do we then find out what [00:58:50] those are? So to me, the future is incredibly exciting. And the fact that I’m doing [00:58:55] my one day a week and I’ve got all this other time to really find out what’s [00:59:00] going on and, and be in a position to influence how we implement it is a [00:59:05] great place to be.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a privilege.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. No it is. It really is.

Payman Langroudi: What grinds your gears [00:59:10] about dentistry?

Neil Sikka: What grinds my gears? It’s a [00:59:15] difficult one, really, because I’m. I’m probably not that I’m too much of an optimist [00:59:20] to really go. What really annoys me about dentistry, I think. Okay. [00:59:25]

Payman Langroudi: Deep breath.

Neil Sikka: Oh, [00:59:30] dear. Okay, I. [00:59:35] This is making me sound like a grumpy old man. [00:59:40]

Payman Langroudi: Instagram. Instagram. Are you.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. The Instagram age of personal branding [00:59:45] for dentists.

Payman Langroudi: And easy does it.

Neil Sikka: I just think I [00:59:50] think people sometimes want to run before they can walk. And I think we’re in a business. [00:59:55] We’re we’re here to deliver health care to our patients, not [01:00:00] just to give them great smiles. I know that’s part of it, but we should be able to [01:00:05] do everything. And when you see people that, um, you know, [01:00:10] that can’t that want to promote themselves in a certain way, but [01:00:15] actually can’t do the basics. I think I find that annoying because that’s what we’re here to provide. [01:00:20] Um, you know, we provide to, to provide proper care for our patients. [01:00:25] And I suppose that’s one thing that kind of gets my what if.

Payman Langroudi: What if someone is a endodontist [01:00:30] and can’t pull out teeth and can’t, can’t, can’t do anything else [01:00:35] other than endo, but they’ve got no problem with that, right?

Neil Sikka: No, I haven’t, because.

Payman Langroudi: They’ve gone through the process. Do [01:00:40] we have a problem with this other person who wants to be a whatever? I don’t know, maybe because maybe you’re thinking of what a lime [01:00:45] bleach bond type dentist?

Neil Sikka: Potentially.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. People. That guy wants to do that.

Neil Sikka: Yeah, that’s fine, [01:00:50] but it’s not. I mean, but what are they doing about the rest of it?

Payman Langroudi: Well, I mean, it’s important. They can they can [01:00:55] they can refer at the right point.

Neil Sikka: But who are you going to afford to another general dentist because you’re not going to do. You’re [01:01:00] not going to do a filling.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: I think I don’t think that’s right. As a general [01:01:05] dentist I think. Why though? Because I was brought up as a as someone, as a general dentist, you [01:01:10] should be providing comprehensive care to a certain level at least. And if it’s beyond your limitations, you refer [01:01:15] to a specialist. Referring to another general dentist means that you’re not qualified enough to do your job. [01:01:20]

Payman Langroudi: Well, I’ll tell you why. Why, why I’m much more like, uh. Happy about it than you are. Yeah. I [01:01:25] stopped practising for six years when we started the company. [01:01:30] And then I went back and started doing two days, three days, four days a week. And when [01:01:35] I went back, dentistry wasn’t my focus. Focus. Right. Enlightened was my focus. Okay. [01:01:40] And I thought, if it’s not my focus, I’m not going to just sit around doing nothing. Like, like doing [01:01:45] work that isn’t the best work. So I thought, I’m going to only do [01:01:50] the things that I’m really, really good at. And it basically came down to bleaching and bonding. [01:01:55] It did. Yeah. And I found I was referring a lot, a lot [01:02:00] of different things to different people because I didn’t need the money was the reason why I [01:02:05] was doing it. Yeah. Um, you know, if it was something that I thought I could do very well, I would do it [01:02:10] myself very well. Otherwise, I would let someone else do it. And, you know, those [01:02:15] patients ended up having better treatment because of it. Because, you know, I’m not the best in the [01:02:20] world at post crowds. Yeah. So I would never do a post crown and send that to [01:02:25] someone else. Yeah. Now, my point is this, that if someone wants to be that guy, let [01:02:30] him be that guy. But tell me about personal branding that grinds you. It’s like, do [01:02:35] you have some sort of distaste for a dentist? I don’t know. [01:02:40] Um, building audience and and working on social. I mean, some people say I’ve [01:02:45] had people say this. I find it very valid. Yeah. Social is a massive skill [01:02:50] in itself. Yeah, that takes a lot of time. Yeah. Yeah. They should be spending the time learning [01:02:55] teeth and understanding people. You know what I mean? If you’re going to put time into something, don’t put it into social [01:03:00] media. I get that, I understand that.

Neil Sikka: I, you know, I don’t I don’t mind [01:03:05] the idea of building a personal brand when it’s done [01:03:10] in the right way. What I don’t particularly like is the whole kind [01:03:15] of bling side of it that goes with it in terms of fast cars, Private jets [01:03:20] and lifestyle stuff that goes with it. I [01:03:25] am very happy for people to be promoting their wonderful work. Yeah, [01:03:30] in terms of their personal brand. And that’s, that’s that I’m completely understandable. And [01:03:35] that’s something actually.

Payman Langroudi: But tell me about the fast cars. Like what’s the problem with the guy showing his Ferrari? [01:03:40]

Neil Sikka: You know, the trouble is, is then dentists get a reputation that they’re all, you know, oh, look at all these rich dentists [01:03:45] driving around in their Ferraris.

Payman Langroudi: You think that’s the thing?

Neil Sikka: Well, I think it is, yes.

Payman Langroudi: No, [01:03:50] no, it’s a thing, I think. But irrespective of whether one dentist is showing his Ferrari or not, you know, like the [01:03:55] it’s such an interesting thing. I remember when I was a dentist, when I was associate, I always used [01:04:00] to try and ask the nurse, how much do you think the boss [01:04:05] earns? Yeah. And the numbers that would come out like these ridiculous numbers, like [01:04:10] ridiculous numbers, something you wouldn’t even get anywhere near like maybe like [01:04:15] ten times what the guy was actually earning, you know, And and and you say why, you know why, [01:04:20] why, why. Oh, he’s got a swimming pool.

Neil Sikka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: All right. He’s, he’s [01:04:25] got a swimming pool. Um, and then you’d get, you’d get some dentists who have a really nice car. They wouldn’t [01:04:30] drive to work so that their nurse wouldn’t think they’re rich or something. Yeah. [01:04:35]

Neil Sikka: I think it’s a difficult one because I think, you know, you work hard, you earn money. You, you, [01:04:40] you deserve the rewards of what you’re working. I just think.

Payman Langroudi: If I had a Ferrari, I wouldn’t stick it [01:04:45] on the internet. I get it.

Neil Sikka: That’s all I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Saying. I get it, but you know, it’s society’s got to that [01:04:50] point now where where some people want to do.

Neil Sikka: I think what you want to do in your own time, I think is absolutely [01:04:55] fine. I think it’s shoving it down people’s throats. It’s the thing that. [01:05:00]

Payman Langroudi: By the way, anyone who really has, uh, private jets and things never, ever puts it online. [01:05:05] Yeah.

Neil Sikka: So.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:05:10] all right, so that grinds your gears. Um, what [01:05:15] is the future going to be for pupa? Are you guys going to add more practices? [01:05:20] Are you going to consolidate? Is it going to be more about this, uh health [01:05:25] mouth connection?

Neil Sikka: I think the mouth body connection [01:05:30] is going to be a big focus for us. I mean, we are in a very unique position to [01:05:35] be able to leverage the knowledge that we have and the data as well within all our business [01:05:40] units. I mean, if we think about, for instance, just a simple thing like, um, [01:05:45] gum disease and, and, and so if you think about, um, [01:05:50] our claims data, if you think you have gum disease, a lot of people have gum disease will have a tooth extracted. [01:05:55] So if we look at our claims data for those people that [01:06:00] have claimed for a dental extraction, they’re 70% more likely to claim under [01:06:05] their medical insurance.

Payman Langroudi: For something else.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. For something under their medical policy. [01:06:10] Mhm. So this is us using data to start to show the power [01:06:15] of oral health. Now, we can’t say that. Oh, just because I’ve had an extraction, that means it [01:06:20] caused that. But we know that the links are there. All the clinical studies are showing that. [01:06:25] So for me, the future is, is how are we going to use [01:06:30] this incredible data knowledge and also expertise within our different business [01:06:35] units to, um, to, to really connect [01:06:40] together to deliver comprehensive care for our patients. So in [01:06:45] terms of Bupa dental for the future, I think we’re concentrating on our existing [01:06:50] portfolio, but we are looking at where we can grow our existing [01:06:55] surgeries practices because they’re at capacity. And they and we [01:07:00] know that there is the need there. That is where we’re concentrating and just being [01:07:05] much more analytical about, um, our, [01:07:10] our approach to growth. So looking at [01:07:15] the data properly, not just our, our, our provision data, but also the [01:07:20] data of our connected care businesses.

Payman Langroudi: What does your week look like?

Neil Sikka: So [01:07:25] Mondays always surgery. So that’s my [01:07:30] surgery day. I shut off my computers and I just literally concentrate on my patients. And I love [01:07:35] that day because it’s like.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you’re at 9 to 5.

Neil Sikka: And I go in at 830, [01:07:40] I probably leave about six. Um, well, I get in about eight and leave at six and it’s a, it’s a full [01:07:45] day, but that’s fine. But I, you know, and I.

Payman Langroudi: What was your day of rest?

Neil Sikka: It is, it’s almost like my day off [01:07:50] because it’s like I’m not, I’m not, I’m not having any noise around me. I’m just concentrating on the people in front [01:07:55] of me and really just enjoying the vacation.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent.

Neil Sikka: And then [01:08:00] the rest of the week, um, I probably the majority of the time is spent in my role as a director of [01:08:05] dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but physically, are you working from home?

Neil Sikka: I’ll be working from home. [01:08:10] We have a it’s funny. We have a head office right next to my practice in [01:08:15] Margate where I work, which is Angel court, which is our worldwide head office. So [01:08:20] I’ll often be in there for meetings. We have our Dental head office in Bristol, so I’ll [01:08:25] be there. We have our board meetings, um, every month we get together [01:08:30] at different sites. I’ll be out and about visiting practices. I’ll [01:08:35] be working from home. You know, I like to do every [01:08:40] week. Um, it’s probably more like every month, a [01:08:45] couple of days I try and get out a bit. Um, and then I’ve got my insurance job [01:08:50] as well. So I will be helping the insurance team to design insurance products. I’ll [01:08:55] be pitching. So when we’re going out to try and sell a dental insurance product [01:09:00] to a new client or renewal meetings with existing clients. So we’ll have. [01:09:05]

Payman Langroudi: You do that actual pitch to a company.

Neil Sikka: Yeah, because I’m not you see, I’m not selling a product. I’m. [01:09:10] I’m promoting a service which is very different. So I come at it from a clinical [01:09:15] angle and why it’s important for your employees oral health to have this [01:09:20] and to support it with the facts. So I’ll I’ll, you know, [01:09:25] I’ll be out there. They’ll, they’ll, they’ll bring me in for the big pictures. [01:09:30] Um, and I’ll be out there because that’s what I used to do. That was, that’s what I used to do [01:09:35] myself when I was for Barbican days. I was out there pitching.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll give you an example. It’s like we’re talking some fortune [01:09:40] 500 company or whatever.

Neil Sikka: All of them. Yeah. All the top.

Payman Langroudi: Like a giant employer. Yeah. [01:09:45] And you’re trying to get Dental as part of the benefits. Yes. So [01:09:50] it must be a much bigger business in the US than here, right. We don’t have here.

Neil Sikka: What [01:09:55] you’re talking about, dental insurance as a business or or Bupa in America.

Payman Langroudi: No, dental [01:10:00] insurance is a business.

Neil Sikka: No dental insurance in America is massive. Yeah. I mean, in the UK, um, [01:10:05] I think it’s around about, uh, dental insurance as a business [01:10:10] is about £200 million of insurance premiums here, which is peanuts. Yeah, but we’ve got [01:10:15] there’s massive potential.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What about the proposition for associates? [01:10:20] I’m an associate.

Neil Sikka: I’m an associate.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:10:25] I’m not an associate. But if I was an associate and I’ve got on [01:10:30] one side an independent practice principles on site, they look like they’re [01:10:35] doing things ethically. On the other side, I’ve got a gigantic corporate, faceless, [01:10:40] nameless. And then on the other side we’ve got Bupa. Let’s say, let’s say we’ve got these three choices, the value [01:10:45] prop that you present. And we talked about some of the stuff that we said about, you know, the training centre training. [01:10:50]

Neil Sikka: Academy and but.

Payman Langroudi: What is what’s the pitch that, you know, what’s, what’s what is the [01:10:55] value prop that an associate gets from Bupa sort of clinical freedom as a thing?

Neil Sikka: I mean, [01:11:00] clinical freedom is a given. You know, you there is no there [01:11:05] is no onus on the individual to work in a certain way. As an associate [01:11:10] within Bupa Dental Care, you have complete clinical freedom as a as a self-employed because [01:11:15] you’re a self-employed principal. I get it in your.

Payman Langroudi: I get it. And that sounds like fun, doesn’t it? That sounds great for for, [01:11:20] for an associate. But you talk about this brand, right? One of the most powerful [01:11:25] brands, full stop, not just brands in health care. I’m a consumer. I walk into [01:11:30] a business with that brand on the on the wall. As a consumer, I would expect [01:11:35] certain clinical fundamentals to come out from every [01:11:40] single place that has that over the wall. But now you’re telling me full clinical freedom. So [01:11:45] one associate could do X, the other associate could do Y. How do you how do you square that circle?

Neil Sikka: Well, [01:11:50] it’s a really difficult one because this is the whole problem in terms of trying to drive consistency. [01:11:55] When you have 2500 clinicians around the.

Payman Langroudi: With full freedom, right.

Neil Sikka: With [01:12:00] well, because they’re self-employed in their own right. But I mean, if you go back [01:12:05] a stage to what you said. Well, what what is it that an associate wants? I [01:12:10] mean, if I think of myself as an associate, if I was working in any environment, [01:12:15] I would want three things. I want to be working with a great team that provides me with [01:12:20] the support. I want my nurse to know exactly what she’s doing, to be really invested in [01:12:25] supporting me so that I don’t have to think too hard about, you know, I just know it’s all there [01:12:30] in terms of enabling me to do the best possible job for my patients. I [01:12:35] want to know that it’s a proud, I’m proud to walk into the practice that the environment [01:12:40] is nice.

Payman Langroudi: Feels good, looks good, feels good.

Neil Sikka: Look good. The equipment is good that the that [01:12:45] they’re investing in my future in terms of digital technology, especially because [01:12:50] that’s where the future lies. And thirdly, you know, I want to be busy. So [01:12:55] I want to I want a business that’s going to put bums on seats for me. Yeah. So those are the three fundamental [01:13:00] things. Now, I mean, there are there are some independent [01:13:05] practices that do an amazing job and they and they have incredible, um, [01:13:10] local brand awareness and power and [01:13:15] they, you know, and we, we can’t compete with them in some ways because they [01:13:20] have, you know, they, they know, they do, they do an incredible job of all those [01:13:25] things for their associates. And I think where we can, [01:13:30] um, where we can hopefully leverage those relationships is there’s, there’s [01:13:35] certainly clinical and potentially non-clinical, um, um, opportunities. [01:13:40] So within our training academy, within our management structure, there’s [01:13:45] opportunities for dentists to get involved in different ways. But if you just want to be an associate [01:13:50] and you want to come in to your practice, I think it’s, I think it’s nice to be [01:13:55] part of an organisation, as I say, that, um, puts the health, the, the health [01:14:00] care of our people first in terms of the fact that we’re not we’re not always paying [01:14:05] big dividends out to shareholders. I think that’s a really nice thought [01:14:10] to have when you come in as an associate. And just the general vibe actually, [01:14:15] that you’re part of a group of people, I’m really surprised that, you know, well, I’m not surprised. But when I go around our [01:14:20] practices, it’s just lovely to meet people that really care. And I think [01:14:25] that is something that we try and engender as.

Payman Langroudi: Difficult to pull off across 350 sites. [01:14:30]

Neil Sikka: And you’re not going to get it right every time. And, you know, and we are going to have our challenges. And also [01:14:35] this consistency that you talk about is something that is really, really difficult. [01:14:40] We try and do it in certain ways with us, you [01:14:45] know, things like our, our website and our online booking process. And perhaps [01:14:50] we’re helping to train receptionists to try and deliver similar service [01:14:55] levels to people when they walk through the door. Um, there’s no way that I [01:15:00] could say we’ve, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve nailed that at all. And it’s part of [01:15:05] a journey. Um, but we, but, but we’re very aware that, I [01:15:10] mean, I love us to be able to give a consistent. I did that at Barbican. I wanted people to have [01:15:15] a consistent, um experience, whichever of my practices that they walked into. [01:15:20] And that’s ultimately what we would like to do within our Bupa environment to [01:15:25] a certain extent, because we have NHS practices, we have purely private [01:15:30] practices, we have specialist practices and we have some we have orthodontic practices. [01:15:35] We have practices in Ireland where they don’t where we don’t have dental [01:15:40] insurance. We. So we do have different brands within [01:15:45] under under the Bupa banner. So, um, it’s not going to be always the same [01:15:50] experience, but if you would go to a certain type of practice, which is similar to another, I’d love that [01:15:55] to be consistent, but I, I won’t say we’re there yet.

Payman Langroudi: So I mean, in Barbican, when [01:16:00] you were trying to keep things consistent, were you telling the dentist they had to do anything? Like [01:16:05] for instance, if I, if I, if I had a group of practices, [01:16:10] which I don’t, but if I did, I might say to all my clinicians that at [01:16:15] this business, we take photographs of every patient for the sake of the argument. Yeah. [01:16:20] I you know, whatever it is.

Neil Sikka: I it’s funny, I think what I [01:16:25] said, I think the one thing that I said to all the associates that would come and work with me, and it was [01:16:30] about, um, it was about putting the care of the patient [01:16:35] first fundamentally. And I said, if you’re here to make a quick buck, that’s all you’re going to make. [01:16:40] But if you put the care of the patient first, I’ve got to trust that you have the experience [01:16:45] and the knowledge. If you haven’t, I will find out because we’ll do our clinical audits regularly. [01:16:50] So the quality of your treatment has got to be the same. But also the [01:16:55] difficulty is the recommendation of treatment is different between different and you’re never going to change [01:17:00] that. Um, but I put it down initially to how a [01:17:05] patient would feel sitting in your chair versus sitting in another person’s [01:17:10] chair. Because ultimately, you know, the old saying, Maya Angelou, you know, people [01:17:15] will not remember what you say. They’ll never remember what you do, but they’ll always remember the way that you made them [01:17:20] feel. Yeah. And if we can make them have that feeling, I don’t know if you’ve seen our fluffy chair campaign. [01:17:25] Beautiful. But that’s the whole point about it. It’s like we have an amazing NPS score. [01:17:30] It’s about 86 now, I think, or something. And that is, you know, it’s world leading. [01:17:35] So we wanted to support that with a campaign that shows that you can feel at ease [01:17:40] when you come into our.

Payman Langroudi: I was quite surprised when I saw that actually, I didn’t expect it to go that sort of outside [01:17:45] the box. It was quite nice to see.

Neil Sikka: I love it and it’s had an amazing response [01:17:50] from the market. Yeah. Because it’s very different.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: It’s not about we’ll do this [01:17:55] treatment or that treatment. It’s treatments just know we’ll we’ll make you feel at ease. Yeah, yeah. And that’s [01:18:00] to me, the core of everything that I would like people to do.

Payman Langroudi: A [01:18:05] couple of quick fire questions. Um, what comes [01:18:10] to mind when I say what’s the best Dental lecture you’ve ever been to?

Neil Sikka: Oh. [01:18:15] There was a chap called. [01:18:20] Do you ever remember a chap called Gordon Christiansen?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Of course. Used to do that report.

Neil Sikka: I [01:18:25] used to. Yeah. Well he still does. It’s not him but it’s somebody else that does it. It was called the Clinical Research Associates. [01:18:30] And it was a thing that you got in the post.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. But he used to come to the UK and do these [01:18:35] lectures.

Payman Langroudi: Yes.

Neil Sikka: And it was all about everything that’s on the market. He’d run through it independently [01:18:40] tested.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah I.

Neil Sikka: Remember. And he would, he would talk about, um, [01:18:45] you know, all the different products. And I thought those, those lectures were so important formative [01:18:50] because, you know, you want to be able to walk away from your lecture at least taking a [01:18:55] few key messages, right? If I could take 2 or 3 key things that I could [01:19:00] put into practice. The other person was a chap called John Cranham. I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Remember [01:19:05] him.

Neil Sikka: He was amazing. And he gave such beautiful lectures. And again, in [01:19:10] terms of design for anterior cosmetic work and just to be really formalised [01:19:15] about your approach, he was brilliant at that. Um, and the other person was a chap called [01:19:20] was it Yan Pamir? He was, he was a chap from Sweden who also [01:19:25] did such beautiful work, but also simplified it so that he, [01:19:30] you could as a, you know, humble general practitioner, could try [01:19:35] and put a few of those things into, into, into practice. When you get.

Payman Langroudi: These important what you’re [01:19:40] saying about simplifying something, because a lot of lecturers go the opposite direction. They make things more complicated [01:19:45] than they need to be.

Neil Sikka: Well, they want to show off their how brilliant they are at doing this complicated work. But then you think, [01:19:50] well, when am I ever going to do that?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. Although at the same time we supply [01:19:55] we do education as well. We do composite bonding courses. Okay. You do have to think that, [01:20:00] you know, there’s going to be someone in the room who’s quite experienced already, and then someone who’s a complete beginner. And how [01:20:05] do you pitch it so that everyone gets something out of it? Yeah. So, you know, it’s [01:20:10] a difficult needle to dance on sometimes. What about if I say favourite book or [01:20:15] resource? You know, I don’t know, uh, Instagram page. [01:20:20]

Neil Sikka: I mean, I’ve got to say I use LinkedIn a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Neil Sikka: Yeah. I find [01:20:25] it a really useful resource for, um.

Payman Langroudi: But. Dental. Dental.

Neil Sikka: Dental. [01:20:30] Dental stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Keep up with what’s.

Neil Sikka: Going health care stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: For, um, [01:20:35] just general market overview. Yeah. Um, I find it a really good resource [01:20:40] and I can flick and I can just go, oh, that’s a really interesting one. And I’ll, you know, Mark’s really good [01:20:45] at sharing things as well. So he’s a great resource.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:20:50] bet he is.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. So, so I mean, I, yeah, probably [01:20:55] use LinkedIn a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Does a teacher stand out like a, someone from university or someone [01:21:00] who inspired you or who’s a dentist who really inspires you?

Neil Sikka: Who [01:21:10] is a dentist? That really inspires me. [01:21:15] I think that’s there is there is somebody out [01:21:20] there who I have spent a bit of time with recently who is just is [01:21:25] incredible. His commitment to trying to really, [01:21:30] um, providing credible care, but also pushing the frontiers of [01:21:35] what you can do for patients. And there’s a chap called Miguel Stanley.

Payman Langroudi: I know Miguel. Yeah.

Neil Sikka: So [01:21:40] I’ve been to his clinic in. Oh, have you in Lisbon? I spent time with him. He was a keynote [01:21:45] lecturer for us at our conference in January. And he’s someone [01:21:50] who.

Payman Langroudi: Outside the box thinking.

Neil Sikka: Yeah, but also is like making me challenge my own way [01:21:55] of thinking about what dentistry should be like in the future.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, definitely. [01:22:00] That’s what you’re saying, that the mouth body connection, he’s definitely [01:22:05] involved.

Neil Sikka: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: In that. Yeah.

Neil Sikka: And he’s a forefront because he, he, you [01:22:10] know, everything is based on science with him. And he does his research. He’ll test things out and [01:22:15] he’ll he will report back on it in terms of what’s working within [01:22:20] his clinic.

Payman Langroudi: How about your free time? Let’s say you had an afternoon [01:22:25] off from everything.

Speaker 5: When’s that?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, exactly. Let’s imagine [01:22:30] I could, I could I could make that happen. Well.

Neil Sikka: I fiddle in people’s mouths, but I’m [01:22:35] also a fiddler violin.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: So I play the violin and a symphony orchestra. [01:22:40]

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Speaker 5: Do you? Yeah.

Neil Sikka: And I love doing that. Oh, that’s my Wednesday nights. Um. [01:22:45]

Payman Langroudi: As a child, did you learn?

Neil Sikka: I learned as a child, as I was saying, you know, I was sent away to boarding [01:22:50] school and I played I was a music scholar and I played it excellent. So and I loved that. I really [01:22:55] love that. It’s, it’s like switch off time. Just really just get into it. [01:23:00] And I just that I.

Payman Langroudi: So how often do you play at home?

Neil Sikka: Well, I probably [01:23:05] practice a couple of times 2 to 3 times a week. Oh really? Um, when I’ve got. Well, [01:23:10] we do four concerts a year and so I’ve got to practice for the concert. So it gives me a real [01:23:15] focus because I’m in an orchestra where the standards are quite high and I’m probably [01:23:20] one of the least proficient, so I don’t want to show everybody up.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:23:25] where do you perform?

Neil Sikka: Um, it’s called the Brent Symphony Orchestra. So it’s in North London.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. [01:23:30]

Neil Sikka: Yeah. No, I love doing that. Um, I play a very silly game [01:23:35] called Real Tennis. I was playing this morning.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Neil Sikka: Do you know real tennis?

Payman Langroudi: Real tennis? Yeah.

Neil Sikka: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Where’d [01:23:40] you play that?

Neil Sikka: Middlesex University, which is up in north London.

Payman Langroudi: Describe to someone who’s [01:23:45] never heard of it what happens in real tennis.

Neil Sikka: Oh, God. Well, it’s just something that the monks used to play in monasteries. [01:23:50] The French monks.

Payman Langroudi: Before tennis.

Neil Sikka: Right? Yeah, it was before tennis. And it’s basically [01:23:55] based around the cloisters of a of a monastery where you have a penthouse, [01:24:00] which is like a half roof that goes around, which is covered cloisters. And then [01:24:05] you have a net across the middle, and then you have a kink in a wall, and then you have holes in the wall. So [01:24:10] and it’s a it’s a normal tennis scoring, but it’s very strange about things that you [01:24:15] play in the game. So it’s too complicated to explain.

Payman Langroudi: Have you come across fives?

Neil Sikka: Yes. I used [01:24:20] to play fives at school.

Payman Langroudi: I played five. There’s that thing that sticks out the buttress thing. It’s literally [01:24:25] part of a cathedral or something sticking in the middle of a squash court. Yeah. [01:24:30]

Neil Sikka: So I did that play golf.

Payman Langroudi: Played.

Neil Sikka: Quite a lot of golf weekends. We’re a big family of [01:24:35] golfers. All five of us. I’ve got three kids.

Payman Langroudi: How old are.

Neil Sikka: They? Oh, 27, 25 [01:24:40] and 19. None of them are at home anymore.

Payman Langroudi: Any dentist [01:24:45] types.

Neil Sikka: Know I’ve got. I’ve got a paediatric nurse. My daughter is a paediatric nurse. Uh, [01:24:50] another one works in finance. He lives in Manhattan and the other one’s just gone off to university. So no, [01:24:55] no, dentists couldn’t persuade them.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent.

Neil Sikka: Even though they said it was a. It [01:25:00] would be a great career for. I said it would be a great career for them.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s been a massive pleasure to have [01:25:05] you, man. Really, really. Thank you so much for coming all the way down.

Neil Sikka: Hey, look, it’s been a great pleasure.

Payman Langroudi: For a long time. [01:25:10] Long time organising this with you guys are busy. That’s what I think I’ve learned. [01:25:15] Yeah, but, um. No, I’ve learned a lot. Thank you so much for. For taking the time.

Neil Sikka: Well, thank you so [01:25:20] much for the invitation. It’s been a pleasure.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve enjoyed that, man. Enjoyed [01:25:25] it.

Neil Sikka: Good God, is that an hour and a half?

Payman Langroudi: 20. [01:25:30]

Neil Sikka: Okay, good. Excellent. Oh, you didn’t ask [01:25:35] me about my three people I’d have around the dinner table.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, shit. Yeah, we have to do that. Oh. Do we? Yeah. Sorry, sorry, [01:25:40] sorry. So lost. Um. So final [01:25:45] question. Fantasy dinner party.

Neil Sikka: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests.

Neil Sikka: Okay. [01:25:50]

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive?

Neil Sikka: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Are you having.

Neil Sikka: So, um, [01:25:55] I think I’ve told you that I’m. I love playing golf. [01:26:00] Yeah. Uh, my favourite golfer of all time is Seve Ballesteros.

Payman Langroudi: Seve.

Neil Sikka: So, [01:26:05] you know, when I was young and he was such a magician. He’s still alive? No, [01:26:10] he had a brain tumour, and he died in his 50s, which was a real, real shame. But he [01:26:15] was a man of incredible passion, loved the game, loved to win, [01:26:20] but just played with such panache. And I think I would just love [01:26:25] to hear his stories. Um, the other person that I’d really [01:26:30] like to have around the dinner table, um, is a violinist. I said, I play [01:26:35] the violin, there’s a, there’s a violinist, um, professional violinist called Itzhak [01:26:40] Perlman.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: Who is who had polio as a child, but overcome [01:26:45] that to become one of the world’s greatest violinists. Yeah, apparently a very funny guy [01:26:50] as well. But I’ve seen him play and it’s just like he [01:26:55] is.

Payman Langroudi: He’s not alive anymore.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. He’s alive. He’s 80. Um, I don’t know if he performs anymore, [01:27:00] but I’ve had the pleasure of seeing him at the Festival Hall many, many years ago, and [01:27:05] he was just incredible. Made it look so easy, but just so [01:27:10] almost whimsical in the way that he approached things. But such a light touch, [01:27:15] but so beautiful to listen to. And I love to hear his experiences. And [01:27:20] my third one would be quite an interesting one for me. There’s [01:27:25] one book that I’ve read that I think has been incredibly profound in [01:27:30] its approach, but has really made me think about my life. And that’s called Man’s Search for Meaning [01:27:35] by a book called Viktor Frankl.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Good book.

Neil Sikka: Um, and he.

Payman Langroudi: I only read that last [01:27:40] year for the first time.

Neil Sikka: And.

Payman Langroudi: Loved it. Loved it.

Neil Sikka: I think it’s incredible. And again, I, [01:27:45] you know, we talked about lecturers that simplify things and make things easy for you to understand. He [01:27:50] has these moments and he says these things like, you know, between stimulus and [01:27:55] response, there’s a space. And in that space is your, your growth and [01:28:00] your freedom because it’s up to you how you respond. Simple, but just like perfect. [01:28:05]

Payman Langroudi: So I’d heard that from Stephen Covey, but obviously he’d [01:28:10] heard it from from there. So I thought it was the Stephen Covey original [01:28:15] thought until I read I read it last year. Yeah.

Neil Sikka: Well, he was a Holocaust survivor. And this whole [01:28:20] story is incredible, beautiful, beautiful book. So I’d have those three. And I think it’d [01:28:25] be really interesting to see Viktor as the psychiatrist analysing Seve. [01:28:30]

Payman Langroudi: True.

Neil Sikka: True. So yeah, and we probably have a [01:28:35] few laughs as well. So.

Payman Langroudi: Well, final final question. Um, It’s a deathbed. [01:28:40]

Neil Sikka: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Three pieces of advice for your loved ones on your deathbed. [01:28:45]

Neil Sikka: Well, I’ve got to say, if I think if I got to my deathbed and I was giving them advice, it’d [01:28:50] probably be a bit late. I’d probably like. I’m always imparting advice [01:28:55] to my kids.

Payman Langroudi: A week before your deathbed.

Neil Sikka: Well, funny enough, somebody once said to me, [01:29:00] um, about, um, you know, we were talking about something called intention. [01:29:05] And I said, what does intention mean? He said, intention is your emotional [01:29:10] legacy. I said, what does that mean? He says it’s imagine yourself towards [01:29:15] the end of your life. You’re sitting on your veranda with a blanket over you, looking [01:29:20] at the sunset, thinking about how you would like to be remembered. That [01:29:25] is your emotional legacy, and you should hold that with you throughout [01:29:30] your life so that that influences the things that you do so that when you look back, [01:29:35] you can look back with pride And you can look back with comfort and. [01:29:40] So that would be one piece of advice. The other thing that I, I say to my [01:29:45] kids all the time is a simple thing. It’s, it’s like, [01:29:50] you know, when they say, talk about exams and A-levels and results and [01:29:55] this I said, you know, what’s most important thing? I said, I was not the most academic person, but I said, [01:30:00] if you get on with people, you’ll get on in life. And [01:30:05] if people like you, you don’t have to be the cleverest in the room. You just have to be someone that can [01:30:10] people can equate with. So that would be my probably my other piece [01:30:15] of advice.

Payman Langroudi: What about a piece of advice? Like, I mean, this the one [01:30:20] that you’ve given a kind of, sort of I found these worked for me kind of advice. What about stuff [01:30:25] that you wish you’d you were more classically. [01:30:30] I wish I’d gone to the gym more. So you should go or I wish I was less risk averse or [01:30:35] something like that. What if it was a piece of advice like that?

Neil Sikka: I [01:30:40] wish. Okay. I think that, um. [01:30:45] What we don’t realise is that when you’re younger, you think that [01:30:50] opportunities are going to occur, present themselves [01:30:55] to you that will transform your life. And actually, there are very few. [01:31:00] And I think I would if I was looking back, I think I wish I’d grasped [01:31:05] more of those opportunities when they came. So when you think something [01:31:10] sounds like something that you really need to grab hold of, do it. Do not [01:31:15] think that something else better will come up.

Payman Langroudi: You can give me an example of [01:31:20] or not. Like what was the opportunity that you didn’t? [01:31:25]

Neil Sikka: Well, I didn’t I probably wasn’t brave enough with my business. I could [01:31:30] have probably.

Payman Langroudi: You did. Okay. But are you.

Neil Sikka: Saying I could have done a lot more if [01:31:35] I thought, you know, I could have bought an insurance company.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah.

Neil Sikka: And I could have really [01:31:40] grown that business enormously because I had all the tools to be able to do it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You were in [01:31:45] the right sort of intersection. Right.

Neil Sikka: And there was no one else. Okay, who was doing it. But yeah, nobody else [01:31:50] was in that market at all. Interesting. And I could have stolen a march on everybody.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting, [01:31:55] interesting.

Neil Sikka: But I wasn’t brave enough. You keep saying I’m a risk taker, I wasn’t. I’ve [01:32:00] seen people far more risk than me. I was I was I think I was quite cautious [01:32:05] really.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent. Thank you so much for doing this.

Neil Sikka: Thank you so much. Thank [01:32:10] you. It’s a pleasure.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure you tune in [01:32:15] for future episodes. Hit subscribe in iTunes or Google Play or whatever [01:32:20] platform it is. And you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you would, um, give. [01:32:25]

Payman Langroudi: Us a six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. That’s what I always leave my Uber [01:32:30] driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.

[VOICE]: Please welcome to the stage Head of General Dentistry, Bupa Dental [00:00:05] Care Doctor Annie Seabourne.

Annie Seabourne: Hello. Good afternoon everybody. [00:00:10] How are we all feeling? Some tired faces. But to be fair, I think people [00:00:15] have looked a lot more fresh than I thought they would be. Considering what I saw on the dance floor [00:00:20] last night. Um, two jam packed days. And [00:00:25] it has been honestly incredible. Last year, some of the feedback we got is that people [00:00:30] wanted more CPD, and what I can say is the team have knocked it out [00:00:35] the park this time, and I want to have a round of applause. Special [00:00:40] acknowledgement to Holly Harker and Nisha Patel and their amazing [00:00:45] respective teams and all the amazing speakers. So I hope you’ve had a wonderful [00:00:50] morning. We are at the end though. This is our last session [00:00:55] of the two days, and we’ve got something a little bit exciting, a little bit different. [00:01:00] And that is a live podcast recording. And it is the Dental Leaders [00:01:05] podcast, which is if you haven’t listened to it, it’s phenomenal. There’s hundreds of episodes to go back and [00:01:10] listen on your drives back. And it’s hosted by the formidable Payman [00:01:15] Langroudi, who is the clinical director and the co-founder [00:01:20] of Enlightened Smiles. And today we’ve got an amazing guest, Andrew [00:01:25] Bower, who is the product category lead globally [00:01:30] of Philips Oral healthcare. So I’m aware that the hangover [00:01:35] might be hitting, or you might be having a bit of a sugar kind of come down from all [00:01:40] the sweets and treats at lunchtime. Um, but the good news [00:01:45] is this will be recorded so you can always watch it back. However, the conversation is going [00:01:50] to be phenomenal. Um, and they’re going to discuss what dentistry is going [00:01:55] to be like in 2040 and beyond. So a warm welcome to Payman [00:02:00] and Andrew.

[VOICE]: Well. [00:02:05]

Payman Langroudi: This is a bit different to my normal podcast room, which some of [00:02:10] you have been in and several of you have been on my podcast. Massive pleasure to have you, Andrew. [00:02:15] Um, we’re looking at 2040 and although [00:02:20] that sounds like a long way away, it’s only 15 years at the same time, [00:02:25] it might be the first time in history where we don’t know what the world is going to be like [00:02:30] in two years time with AI and robotics, everything that’s [00:02:35] coming down the line. And really, um, my first question to [00:02:40] you is how far ahead do you guys think? Mm.

Andrew Bower: Fair [00:02:45] question. Um, we try and keep a ten year horizon [00:02:50] when we’re looking forward. Um, and maybe start kind of from a Philips enterprise perspective, [00:02:55] right. We’re in the in the business of improving lives. That’s our mission. 2.5 [00:03:00] billion lives is what we want to improve. And we bridge that between consumer health and medical health. And [00:03:05] so we’re always looking at the ten year horizon about what’s going to be [00:03:10] inflection points and what’s going to improve health outcomes. And I think for [00:03:15] us, it’s really a truly exciting time to be in health care, if [00:03:20] you like, as a whole, because I think the advancements in technology, it’s a somewhat industrial revolution we’re going [00:03:25] through at the moment, and the advancements in technology are accelerating unprecedented [00:03:30] speed. Where will that take us? Your guess is as good as mine, but [00:03:35] I think what it will do, it will hopefully lead to for [00:03:40] clinicians giving them more time to focus on patient care. And I think for [00:03:45] consumers, and I’m afraid that’s what we use in Philips, a lot of times consumers rather than people, but consumers, [00:03:50] is going to lead to more personalised care and more preventative care. And that’s [00:03:55] going to come through a wealth of technology, of sensors on driving behavioural change to [00:04:00] ensure that those who need critical care are going to get it quicker.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:04:05] did you you’ve been with the business 20 odd years now.

Andrew Bower: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So do you remember predictions [00:04:10] you made 15 years ago? How right do they come?

Andrew Bower: It’s [00:04:15] funny because I think if we were back 15 years ago or even ten years ago, we [00:04:20] were talking about the IoT of things, the Internet of things and connectivity. And I think [00:04:25] that’s everywhere we touch now. Right. And that was the first step towards machine learning and AI. And [00:04:30] I think, um, a lot of the promises have come true. You [00:04:35] know, if you think of how many of us are here wearing a wearable, a smart watch or something that’s given us data and insights [00:04:40] all stemmed from that IoT. And I joke, and I look back [00:04:45] and I think if you were sat here in 1950, we’d be talking about should we use plastic? Yes. [00:04:50] The world is going to change. Of course we’re going to use UI. You’re going to leverage big data, [00:04:55] and it’s going to enhance the quality of care that we can provide.

Payman Langroudi: So look, we sell [00:05:00] toothpaste for £12 and everyone Gasps £12 for toothpaste. [00:05:05] Yeah. And then right right next door to your teeth is your lips and skin. [00:05:10] And people buy £100 screen you know creams for their skin. Yeah. Do [00:05:15] you having come from all the different categories in Philips consumer that you’ve been in, do [00:05:20] you see that oral care has sort of a lower [00:05:25] priority for people? And are you doing something to sort of what do you think [00:05:30] that oral care will take a higher priority for people going forward?

Andrew Bower: Yeah, I think look, [00:05:35] oral healthcare at the minute for consumers is a daily chore. Yeah, two minutes a day. We want [00:05:40] to turn it into a daily ritual because if you can turn into that daily ritual, you’re investing [00:05:45] in yourself, investing, giving yourself confidence, right? You’re in the whitening business, so am I. You know, and [00:05:50] that’s part of it. But it’s about actually, how am I investing my time in myself and that [00:05:55] care routine to take better care of myself? I think the beauty industry is a fabulous example, [00:06:00] right? How many people have a beauty routine, a cleansing of their skin routine at the end of the day? What’s [00:06:05] an extra two minutes in that routine to actually have a sensorial experience that makes you feel fresh and [00:06:10] good about yourself, and actually knowing that you’re doing something to protect your longevity. [00:06:15] Look after your oral health and ultimately full body health. So I think [00:06:20] the job of the industry and industrial partners like us is to break the apathy, [00:06:25] right? Break the apathy around oral health, that it’s absolutely [00:06:30] integral for your health today and tomorrow. And it’s actually really easy [00:06:35] to take care of, you know, and we’re on this crusade [00:06:40] to try and break that apathy. You know, let me give you some examples. Um, globally, [00:06:45] 30% of people are only using a power toothbrush. So 70, 70, [00:06:50] 70% of people are still using manuals.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the number in the UK? Do you know?

Andrew Bower: Yeah. 52. [00:06:55]

Payman Langroudi: 52%.

Andrew Bower: 52% in the UK. Second most penetrated market after the Netherlands. [00:07:00] Really? It is. But it also shows where we are on a journey of oral health. [00:07:05] Because actually I always joke it’s kind of like the New Year’s habit. You could always keep your teeth [00:07:10] twice a day with a power toothbrush. People don’t because this is apathy, because they don’t understand the importance of it. [00:07:15] So I think, you know, the power of data and AI, and we see this with our connected apps, people [00:07:20] who use our connected app brush for longer. It leads to more, more retention [00:07:25] and a more complete, a more complete clean. And we have the data to support it, but it’s [00:07:30] people taking that, um, shall we say, active investment in their health. [00:07:35] And when they realise oral health like we heard yesterday from Ian Chappell. Right. Oral health [00:07:40] is so important. I hope we’re going to break the apathy and people are going to invest more time, more [00:07:45] effort and maybe the £60 they need to spend on that versus, I [00:07:50] don’t know, an a G one supplement or a whatever else it is they do for, for, for [00:07:55] well-being.

Payman Langroudi: As a business. How do you guys think about insurgents? Because [00:08:00] the barrier to entry of an electric toothbrush is quite low.

Andrew Bower: Yeah. I think we need [00:08:05] to be really careful here. We are seeing insurgents across the world. So as you know, in the intro, um, [00:08:10] I have global responsibility and I spend a lot of time in Asia and I see a lot of incumbents [00:08:15] coming in, a lot of Chinese tech coming through in the category. And [00:08:20] it’s fascinating, right? Because you go to China and I’m seeing robotics and I see AI, and I think the advancements of [00:08:25] technology and the speed in which it’s coming is phenomenal. Yeah. And I see incumbents in the market, [00:08:30] like, um, if you want, you smile, right. Local Chinese [00:08:35] brand, American founders flying in China full of tech. You [00:08:40] know, I didn’t know that I needed a talking toothbrush, but it probably talks to me now. It’s got light [00:08:45] colours interaction on it, but it’s not delivering the clinical efficacy that [00:08:50] it needs to do. And actually, I think some of the incumbents coming to the market are forgetting [00:08:55] that actually this is a clinical product that has to do a clinical job and deliver the care [00:09:00] that is required when you, the clinician, can’t be there. That’s what we need to do. [00:09:05] And so it also acts as a massive threat, if I’m honest with you, to the [00:09:10] industry. Um, and a perfect example of this is in Japan, right? Um, [00:09:15] or power toothbrush penetration in Japan is 24%, but [00:09:20] a huge category objectives for people going into the category, buying one and then trading out because the product [00:09:25] doesn’t deliver any benefit.

Andrew Bower: So it doesn’t deliver the clinical benefit. It doesn’t have the clinical experience. [00:09:30] So people just think, yeah, this is rubbish. And then bin it and go back to the manual brushing. What [00:09:35] they haven’t done is brought into the category, the clinically proven product that has got the evidence behind it, [00:09:40] which is going to actually remove the plaque that it says it’s going to do and help you remove the plaque where you [00:09:45] need to. And this is a big challenge because the more we see this, we’re going to see more category rejectors and [00:09:50] therefore people not believing in the benefit of power over manual and [00:09:55] with with. Power being still, you [00:10:00] know, still at 30%. So Underpenetrated, you know, we have a job to do to ensure [00:10:05] that people trade into the category at the right level and ensure that they learn how to use the device [00:10:10] properly, ensuring that it delivers a clinical efficacy for [00:10:15] what you want to achieve. And that’s why, you know, my role globally is to drive relationships with dental [00:10:20] professionals to ensure that they understand our story and actually understand how it can help them in the care they’re providing [00:10:25] to their patients. But it is a huge risk.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the biggest difference between British dentists [00:10:30] and other dentists? I mean, what, what, what comes to mind? Because, [00:10:35] you know, you obviously you guys are connecting to dentists all over the world.

Andrew Bower: I think [00:10:40] let me start with the consumer. Come to the dentist. Right? If I think about the consumer, the individual reactive. [00:10:45] Reactive versus preventive is [00:10:50] the key is the key distinction across the globe. I think we actually have a very, [00:10:55] very mature oral health system in the UK. When I compare it to many, many other regions, [00:11:00] we go regularly, we go for Check-ups, we go for prevention. I go to China, you [00:11:05] go when you’ve got a pain and where do you go? You go to the public hospital and they deal with it. [00:11:10] So I think the attitude of [00:11:15] people and consumers differs tremendously, therefore has a knock on effect to the [00:11:20] to the clinical side of things. Um, and many [00:11:25] are about fixing a problem. Get in, get out, fix the problem. It’s not necessarily about [00:11:30] patient care. I think what you see in the UK is far more patient care orientated kind [00:11:35] of system that supports people when they’re in the practice, but also when they’re at [00:11:40] home and helping them on their patient plans. Whereas in many parts of the world that still doesn’t exist. [00:11:45]

Payman Langroudi: So where where would you rank the UK? Near the top?

Andrew Bower: Yeah, near the top. I think UK [00:11:50] is pretty high. The US is pretty high. We’ve got we’ve got the discrepancy, [00:11:55] you know, and societal gaps in the US that we have to challenge. And how do we make sure people get access [00:12:00] to care. We don’t have that as much in the UK. Um but it’s certainly up there. And I [00:12:05] think what we’re seeing is that pushing the boundaries of dentistry, I think, [00:12:10] you know, what I was doing, for example, around systemic health is really pioneering. And [00:12:15] I think it’s really interesting to see where that will take us.

Payman Langroudi: So that question, what we saw with Prof [00:12:20] Chappell yesterday, the question of the mouth body connection does do you guys [00:12:25] spend time on that?

Andrew Bower: We’re obviously monitoring it [00:12:30] very closely. Right. Um, and I think there’s increasingly evidence across the globe. [00:12:35] And professor, Professor Chapman obviously is the oracle of this. And you know, we speak to many, many key opinion leaders [00:12:40] across the globe on this topic. The evidence is becoming stronger and stronger. The question [00:12:45] is, what do you do with that? Right. So if you get an early sign of diabetes, for example, [00:12:50] what do you do? Go and do with that. And where do you go. And does that need to be at the consumer’s home [00:12:55] or can it be in in the practice? So there’s a real discussion about where that should take place. [00:13:00] And then how do you integrate that into the ultimately care pathway that bridges both [00:13:05] your general practice and your, and your clinical and your, your dentistry? So [00:13:10] I think we believe in it. I think, I think what it does for us [00:13:15] comes back to that apathy point. I hope it also brings greater awareness to oral oral [00:13:20] health and that we all need to invest more time in it. So I see it also [00:13:25] as a great catalyst for consumers to be more engaged, [00:13:30] and I hope that it has that effect. And then from a clinical care pathway perspective, [00:13:35] I’m really excited to see how that comes together. Right? You know, blood tests and dental practices, etc., etc., [00:13:40] how it comes together. But from a consumer, I hope it wakes people up.

Payman Langroudi: So you reckon by by [00:13:45] 2040, your daily brushing routine will give [00:13:50] you diagnostics because of saliva testing through the brush, something like that. I mean, [00:13:55] what can you tell us?

Andrew Bower: I’m not going to go too far. It could potentially. Um, [00:14:00] but I think there’s a real question like I say, where that takes place. Is it, is it, is it useful to you to get a diagnostic [00:14:05] on a Monday morning at 630 on your way to the office? No, wait a minute. Something’s changed since yesterday. [00:14:10] And what’s the urgency of that versus what’s the role that will play in [00:14:15] the clinical setting? You know, so I think let’s think about, you know, algorithmic hygiene. Hygiene [00:14:20] is twice a year, maybe three times. And I have half an hour with them. What a great opportunity [00:14:25] for primary health, you know, both physical and mental and have them have that check [00:14:30] up. Do I need that on a daily basis? I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: But are you not working on like maybe an [00:14:35] oral version of those bands that people wear? Surely. I mean, if [00:14:40] there was going to be some sort of diagnostic information that you can [00:14:45] get from the mouth.

Andrew Bower: I think there will be diagnostic information from the mouth that you can get. Absolutely. [00:14:50] I think you look at saliva, you look at gas, etc.. I’m excited to see where the industry takes it, but I think one thing’s measuring [00:14:55] it. The other thing is turning it into actionable insights. You know, I think we’ve seen from we’ll go back [00:15:00] to the IoT discussion about raising data. Data gives you visibility. [00:15:05] Visibility drives action. So actually what we’re doing here is trying to create the invisible [00:15:10] visible for people. Right? And if that can happen, then we can drive behavioural change. [00:15:15] And I think that you’ve got to have that motivational driver to drive that behavioural [00:15:20] change. And that’s where data continues to be a positive reassurance to do that. [00:15:25] Um, do I foresee in mouth monitoring potentially. Um, again, [00:15:30] I think we’ve got to be very clear where that should take place and where it shouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: If [00:15:35] you were a betting man, how long will it be before dentists [00:15:40] are replaced by robots?

Andrew Bower: I don’t think they ever will be. I don’t think they ever will be. [00:15:45] I think I don’t think they will be. I think I’ll tell you why. Because it’s actually about care. People [00:15:50] care what I think robotics AI technology will do [00:15:55] will give clinicians more time, more time to be with their patients, to understand them. [00:16:00] And I think the role of dentists will broaden to be more holistic health [00:16:05] than just necessarily just looking at teeth perspective, maybe total oral health. [00:16:10] But I don’t think it will be replaced by robotics. I think robotics will enhance the workflow. [00:16:15]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So a bit like, you know, like Waymo, a self-driving car.

Andrew Bower: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [00:16:20] still a driver. There’s one driver driving 60 cars. Maybe that.

Andrew Bower: Maybe, [00:16:25] maybe, maybe.

Payman Langroudi: One dentist treating 60 patients.

Andrew Bower: You know, we’re human beings and we want care [00:16:30] and we want a human interaction for that care. I think technology will enhance the care [00:16:35] we get won’t replace it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but I mean, for instance, it doesn’t [00:16:40] have to be a dentist. It could be a TCO, a human, certainly. [00:16:45]

Andrew Bower: Potentially. Potentially. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you’ve worked [00:16:50] across other categories. What are examples that, you know, Philips categories, things [00:16:55] that you guys have achieved that now you’re bringing over to oral care, like which other category would you [00:17:00] spent the most time?

Andrew Bower: I spent a lot of time in women’s health and I spent a lot of time in, uh, what [00:17:05] we call our mother and child care account, uh, supporting, uh, people, [00:17:10] having families. There’s two aspects to this. There’s a commercial aspect, and there’s kind [00:17:15] of the behavioural, the lifestyle aspect, right? I think one thing we’ve done, we built [00:17:20] the world’s leading pregnancy app. You know, we have 7 million pregnant women on it every day looking [00:17:25] for guidance and education. And what we’ve done there is to really build clinical [00:17:30] insight into a communication style that’s really easily understandable. [00:17:35] So we talked about the reading age of a 7 or 8 year old, and it makes it highly digestible for [00:17:40] everybody. And actually, who we want to get that education to is probably the underserved community, [00:17:45] the people who aren’t as well educated. And so it’s been a hugely successful to [00:17:50] demonstrate better education, which then leads to better care, right? And it’s obvious for well-educated [00:17:55] people. But if you talk to well, it was in those days, NHS England and we’re saying, how do [00:18:00] you get people to stop smoking when they’re pregnant in Liverpool? It’s a very specific target audience that you’re targeting. [00:18:05] And so I think access to education and [00:18:10] care is something that we’ve really doubled down on, and ensuring that products become [00:18:15] more personalised to your to your needs across the board.

Andrew Bower: So childcare, [00:18:20] we did an awful lot of research on flex for babies and drinking and [00:18:25] understanding that process. So I think it’s kind of education adoption is to products [00:18:30] and then making it more accessible. So yesterday we spoke briefly [00:18:35] and we’re talking about the Affordable Care Act in North America, which Obama brought in. Right. [00:18:40] And he very clearly said every new mother should have entitled to a breast, a breast [00:18:45] pump, because breast milk is the most important thing you can give to your baby and put the insurance codes [00:18:50] in place to enable that to happen. Right. I would love us to have a dialogue about how do [00:18:55] you unlock insurance codes on a national level to oral care. So it’s not the expense [00:19:00] that’s coming out of your individual pocket, but it’s something that’s supported by legislation [00:19:05] to make it more accessible. And I think it’s that change in [00:19:10] the narrative and the dialogue that we need to have to make oral health care more accessible. Bringing this conversation [00:19:15] to ensure people get the best care every day.

Payman Langroudi: So in your [00:19:20] time, you’ve worked at other companies or has your whole career been.

Andrew Bower: No, no, I have worked at other companies. [00:19:25]

Payman Langroudi: But what, 20 years at Philips?

Andrew Bower: I’ve been 20 years at Philips. I started here in the UK, I’ve worked in Asia, I’ve worked in the Netherlands. [00:19:30] I’ve been around the world. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How important is oral care to Philips? Like what? [00:19:35] What percentage of its business is it?

Andrew Bower: It’s a it’s a. So if you think about [00:19:40] Philips, we have health systems on a personal health business. Our personal health business is significantly important for us. Um, [00:19:45] I’m sure you can Google our, our financial projections. [00:19:50]

Payman Langroudi: I don’t mean financially, but do you see that as the growth part.

Andrew Bower: It’s a great growth path. [00:19:55] Like we talk about consumers. We want to serve people. We want to help. Right. [00:20:00] Our ambition is to serve over 250 million people every day with [00:20:05] better oral health care. And how do we do that? Primarily with power toothbrushes. We also [00:20:10] do a lot of interdental care, and we also do whitening solutions. But ultimately, it’s critically [00:20:15] important because it links back to that systemic health story, right? Which [00:20:20] which we also actively invested on an enterprise level in a, in a health system, in [00:20:25] a hospital environment. Um, and so why [00:20:30] we have a consumer division in. Phillips is about prevention [00:20:35] and driving behavioural change for better health outcomes. So the businesses [00:20:40] that we have and we’ve kept hold of are still wholly focussed on that.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:20:45] how do you guys think about research? Do you outsource research and do [00:20:50] it in-house, or do you do it all in-house?

Andrew Bower: We we do a lot in-house. [00:20:55] We have a huge we have a great advanced development team, but we also work with a lot of clinical partners. [00:21:00] You know, um, for us, it’s absolutely critical that we have leading [00:21:05] opinions and cutting edge research from across the globe. You know, [00:21:10] um, Professor Chapel’s a great friend of ours, but we also have friends in every corner of the world. [00:21:15] And it’s really important for us to understand what’s happening in different corners of the world from [00:21:20] a research, um, but also from a beliefs perspective, right. And that [00:21:25] that informs us on our innovation process. The voice of the [00:21:30] clinician is absolutely critical in everything we do. So we’ll have them around the table [00:21:35] at our earliest concept stage of ideas, and we’ll go all the way through to clinical validation with [00:21:40] them to help us ensure that we deliver products that deliver what they should do on the [00:21:45] tin.

Payman Langroudi: But you told me that you’ve got research centres across the globe. What three?

Andrew Bower: Yeah, [00:21:50] we’ve got 3 or 4. Yeah, we’ve got four.

Payman Langroudi: And they work across categories.

Andrew Bower: No. These are all dedicated to oral [00:21:55] health care.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really? Three just for oral care. So do they work in conjunction with each other? [00:22:00]

Andrew Bower: Absolutely. And we have experts specialist expertise in different ones for different topics. [00:22:05]

Payman Langroudi: So what would you say is the biggest breakthrough for ellipses has come out with Philips. [00:22:10]

Andrew Bower: I’ll talk about oral health in this context rather than Philips. I think.

Payman Langroudi: So. I mean [00:22:15] in oral health.

Andrew Bower: In oral health, I think the big steps that change that we’re doing, have done, and you can see it now [00:22:20] is the connectivity that we brought to toothbrushes. Why was that so important? [00:22:25] We did it for kids and we did it for adults. For kids. We have [00:22:30] a character, sparkly, etc. who brushes your teeth with you, educates you, [00:22:35] and drives adherence to brushing two minutes a day.

Payman Langroudi: It’s on an.

Andrew Bower: App. It’s on an app.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andrew Bower: Really, [00:22:40] really important. And we see child adoption to brushing significantly [00:22:45] increasing. Sparkly. Goes to bed, goes on holiday. Sparkly cleans your teeth. The whole narrative [00:22:50] around it. And then we put connectivity into into adult toothbrushes. And we saw adherence again [00:22:55] to brushing significantly step up. You know, I think it’s I think it’s 80% of people [00:23:00] in the app brush for two minutes, twice a day, which doesn’t sound much, but most people just brush for 60s. [00:23:05] Right? And so it’s an example of behavioural change [00:23:10] and that connectivity allowing you to do that. It also teaches you where the brush is and how [00:23:15] to brush in the mouth. You can see where it is on the app, etc., etc.. Which again are you covering blind spots, [00:23:20] are you not? So I think what we’re trying to do is continuously bring innovation [00:23:25] that drives personalised care. It helps you understand where you’ve got [00:23:30] spots that you need to clean, where you should clean a bit more, where you should invest more time, and that will help [00:23:35] ultimately drive better outcomes.

Payman Langroudi: Does that connect to the dentist as well?

Andrew Bower: No, not at this stage. [00:23:40] We have looked at it, we’ve looked at it, we’ve looked at connecting to the dentist. What are we going to be careful? [00:23:45] And this is also from my previous roles because you get into the telehealth discussion and remote patient [00:23:50] monitoring. We don’t want to add burden to the care pathway of the clinician. [00:23:55] We want to help them effectively. And in dentistry, [00:24:00] and we’re certainly in developed markets, we’re proactively going, um, we’re [00:24:05] not. Maybe it is a specific case you want to keep an eye on, but we haven’t seen the pull [00:24:10] from the clinical world to actually have that at the minute from [00:24:15] a, from a teledentistry perspective. And there’s many, many players out there, as you know, who have explored [00:24:20] it, but none have driven to mass adoption. So for us, we very much focus on that [00:24:25] personalisation.

Payman Langroudi: Would you say there’s even mass adoption of the app?

Andrew Bower: I think, um. [00:24:30]

Payman Langroudi: I expect most people just take the brush out and brush with it.

Andrew Bower: No, they do, they do. I think so. [00:24:35] It’s obviously a certain demographic. You want it and it’s a higher demographic who are using it. And I think the adoption [00:24:40] rates, I’ll be speculating, it’s 5,060% of [00:24:45] the app and continued usage up to a year. So it’s, you know, we are seeing people engaging. [00:24:50]

Payman Langroudi: How do you guys look at positioning? Because I don’t know, correct [00:24:55] me if I’m wrong. I think Philip’s stuff is positioned sort of at the top of the market. So [00:25:00] do you ever there must be someone somewhere always telling you, why don’t you bring out a cheaper [00:25:05] toothbrush?

Andrew Bower: Look, I think if you think about our mission as a Sonicare, it [00:25:10] might sound a bit. We want to democratise oral health. What do we mean by that? We want to [00:25:15] show that every person has access to a quality product that delivers clinical [00:25:20] efficacy and does a deep clean, and we believe we can offer that. We are positioned. [00:25:25] We do have a premium brand positioning. However, you know, we have price points [00:25:30] from £30 all the way through which deliver clinical outcomes. So [00:25:35] there is this narrative that we are too expensive. But actually we [00:25:40] spent the last couple of years revamping our entry portfolio, our portfolio to make [00:25:45] it more accessible because we know it has to be to appeal to more people. And we need to break that [00:25:50] apathy again of getting into people’s hands.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, part of it is the premium positioning [00:25:55] as well, right?

Andrew Bower: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t be all things to all people.

Andrew Bower: You can’t. But I think you [00:26:00] can drive an object of desire. Right. And that’s what we talk about where you do create an object of desire. We think we do anyway. [00:26:05] And it seems to test pretty well with consumers. So we want to be an aspiration, but we want people [00:26:10] to be able to have accessibility to it. We’re not in a market of just serving [00:26:15] the premium consumer. You know, we’re in a market of democratising oral [00:26:20] health for everybody, and that makes it we’ve got to make it accessible for everybody, and that sits on our shoulders to make [00:26:25] sure we can do that.

Payman Langroudi: I want to get more onto your personal [00:26:30] journey of how how did you get to this point? Why did you move to oral care? Or did [00:26:35] they move you to oral care? How does it work?

Andrew Bower: How does it work? No, I did [00:26:40] a similar role for, like I said, Women’s Health Division before I [00:26:45] took this role. And what attracted me to oral [00:26:50] health is, is the systemic health link. You know, the bigger health implications, [00:26:55] you know, that it could play. And they asked me if I was generally interested in taking this opportunity [00:27:00] and also looking at how we change the relationship that we drive with clinicians across the globe, which [00:27:05] I think is a really nice challenge to look at because the motivational [00:27:10] drivers of them is tremendously different depending where I look. You know, I speak [00:27:15] to dentists and where they exist, hygienists, because that’s not everywhere wherever [00:27:20] I go. And it’s really interesting to learn their preconceptions now. So [00:27:25] I’m in a I’m in a dental office in China and I’m talking to the dentist. And the first question I ask them, are [00:27:30] you using a Sonicare? Now I use a manual. Why? Because I can do good. I can do a good enough job. [00:27:35] Okay. What about the literature? Mhm. So there’s some grassroots [00:27:40] education also within the industry that we need to break, break [00:27:45] through to, to. To get them to support [00:27:50] our mission effectively. Um, and yeah, so why [00:27:55] I took that role was actually because I think the challenge is fantastic. And there’s a great opportunity [00:28:00] and there’s such an underserved population out there that we can do something, something about. And that’s [00:28:05] what I get excited about.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind if I ask you what’s been the darkest day [00:28:10] on your journey.

Andrew Bower: Professionally or personally?

Payman Langroudi: Professionally?

Andrew Bower: Look, [00:28:15] I think professionally in the world that I’m in.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes it’s mixed, isn’t it? Yeah. [00:28:20]

Andrew Bower: It is, it is. And I’ll be honest with you, one leads to another. You know, if you get it wrong professionally, [00:28:25] it does have a personal impact on you. Um, darkest [00:28:30] time of my journey is when I’ve launched, I went, I launched the world’s first medical grade [00:28:35] parenting app, parenting, parenting app. So I wanted to drive data [00:28:40] on newborn children to help parents have a voice. And it didn’t [00:28:45] resonate as much as we thought it would. And that’s a bit upsetting, right?

Payman Langroudi: I’ve been, I’ve been [00:28:50] there.

Andrew Bower: It’s like you’re a corporate venturing, as you say, and it was a corporate venture and I was leading this corporate venture [00:28:55] and it didn’t resonate. And then you had to pull the plug and you’re like, there’s a tough love [00:29:00] that, you know, the element of actually accepting. We can’t afford to keep investing in [00:29:05] this. It’s a good idea. Are we too soon? The best answer is it’s too soon. Because then you [00:29:10] can say, oh, we’ll come back to it later. But no, but actually the market has to be right. And [00:29:15] if.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not, if you’re not failing, you’re not trying.

Andrew Bower: You’re not.

Payman Langroudi: Learning, you’re not, you’re not trying enough stuff. But [00:29:20] I think in corporate, sometimes everyone’s trying to sort of protect their own job. And so [00:29:25] trying stuff is quite hard.

Andrew Bower: I think, um, being I like the term [00:29:30] entrepreneurial, you know, you need people who are speedboats in oil tankers to try and drive change. [00:29:35] Um, and that’s what we try and do to try and get ahead of the curve. And that takes [00:29:40] a healthy aspect of, um, risk, but [00:29:45] calculated risk about what are the parameters you’re going [00:29:50] to work with and what not. And being very honest about when it’s working and when it’s not and when you’re going [00:29:55] to pass the scale. Right. Um, I was running a venture in India before I took this [00:30:00] role, which was really supporting women with PCOS. And [00:30:05] the goal there was. We suddenly realised the whole [00:30:10] glue to the proposition was actually about personal connection and actually [00:30:15] building a community of people who are suffering the same condition. And yes, we’re offering we’re offering nutrition [00:30:20] plans, lifestyle coaching, yoga classes. We do a whole behaviour [00:30:25] change and we actually realise it’s about human connection. So how do we how can we dial that up to help people? [00:30:30] Um, so yeah, it’s um, but that’s healthy experiment and [00:30:35] allowing the space to test that and protecting teams to do it. And I think that’s the art [00:30:40] in corporates about how do you protect a team to try something. Yeah. And then if it works, [00:30:45] how does it scale?

Payman Langroudi: Certainly some some some corporates manage. Right. [00:30:50] They do.

Andrew Bower: They do. And you know many corporates are successful in this. But you’ve got to get that balance right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:30:55]

Andrew Bower: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about the opposite. What comes to mind if I say what was the best day.

Andrew Bower: The best day. Oh [00:31:00] many, many good days. I think on the opposite side, you launch a product or service that’s [00:31:05] certainly has huge market reaction. And people, it generally improves their day to day [00:31:10] experience, their great days. And then it’s actually really nice then to do that time and [00:31:15] spend the time with the consumer and the customer having dialogues, talking about it. What’s working? What [00:31:20] can you enhance, what you can improve? But people are generally excited to help you. So the best days are when people [00:31:25] are kind of on the idea, the building and co-creating with you.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:31:30] specifically one of these apps.

Andrew Bower: Apps or one of the devices [00:31:35] or services that we bring. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about if I ask you, what’s your biggest mistake that you’ve made [00:31:40] in your career?

Andrew Bower: Mm. Biggest mistake. Um [00:31:45] biggest mistake. It’s [00:31:50] a hard one. I think I’ve launched I’ve [00:31:55] launched things that weren’t ready. And what I mean by that, I’ve put a product out there that I wasn’t happy with [00:32:00] or a service that I wasn’t happy with. And deep down, I probably knew it. And [00:32:05] there was an element you’ve got to listen to your gut.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andrew Bower: And you’ve got to listen to that gut and act on that gut. And [00:32:10] if you don’t, there’s something, there’s something wrong. So I think as you as you continue in your career, I [00:32:15] think the voice of the voice of your gut becomes a bit stronger with your experiences, and you shouldn’t ignore it because [00:32:20] it actually tells you an awful lot about is this good or is it bad?

Payman Langroudi: So [00:32:25] you don’t want to go into exactly what it was.

Andrew Bower: Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: You want to go into exactly what it was? That’s [00:32:30] a no no. We [00:32:35] could all take it. Okay. Now going forwards. [00:32:40]

Andrew Bower: 2040 back to 2040.

Payman Langroudi: Back to 2040.

Andrew Bower: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you [00:32:45] told me there’s many things you guys are thinking. There’s some things you can’t talk about.

Andrew Bower: Exactly. [00:32:50]

Payman Langroudi: What can you talk about?

Andrew Bower: Look, I think we can talk about I think we can the key consumer [00:32:55] trends. And we’re going to see consumer clinical trends, right? There’s no doubt we’re [00:33:00] seeing from a consumer perspective that there’s different motivational drivers towards oral care, [00:33:05] right? There’s the element of I just want to clean my teeth, get on with it. Element [00:33:10] of I want a healthy body. There’s an element of I want to look beautiful. And [00:33:15] so you’ve seen different motivational drivers, and I think you see the industry shifting a little bit towards that, you know, [00:33:20] self-confidence, mental health all plays a role and also connects to the oral [00:33:25] health experience. And what we offer, you know, you’re, you’re in a world of whitening as [00:33:30] well. You know, you whiten your teeth, you look after them, but you’ve got to have strong foundations to be able to whiten them. [00:33:35] Right. And I think we’re going to see, and things like that really [00:33:40] drive active interest in it. So I think what we’re going to see, certainly from consumer [00:33:45] side, different different motivational drivers and people and therefore people investing in oral health for different [00:33:50] reasons. We talk a lot about systemic health.

Andrew Bower: Some people don’t care about that if we’re honest about it. Some of [00:33:55] us just want good white teeth to look beautiful. Yeah, yeah. And so I think the motivational drivers [00:34:00] are different. And I think it’s really important that we recognise that because we’re ultimately driving the [00:34:05] same outcome, health benefits. But the path to it is different. [00:34:10] I think then, like I said, from the initial perspective, we can see great [00:34:15] integration. I think we’re going to see far more better integration. I think, you know, total [00:34:20] health health, health clinics is going to continue to explode. [00:34:25] I expect we’re already seeing it here, right? We’re going to see it [00:34:30] in the US. And I think we’re going to see far more patient record integration. [00:34:35] You know, if you think about things like epic are doing in the US and really trying to connect the data or enabling us to connect [00:34:40] the data points, that’s going to see a profound shift in the system. And [00:34:45] I’m excited to see where that goes because there’s going to be a conversion, right? When does general practice [00:34:50] singularity come together as one, right, as the total wellness place? Yeah. Um, [00:34:55] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what was the thing that surprised you the most [00:35:00] about dentists, dental practices, the dental sector? When [00:35:05] you came to us?

Andrew Bower: When I came into it. Again, [00:35:10] different things for different reasons, right? Yeah. I think [00:35:15] people in the industry, I, I was quite surprised by the entrepreneurial [00:35:20] spirit in the dentist world, if I’m honest with you. I’ve met a lot of entrepreneurs, you know, there’s [00:35:25] a lot of entrepreneurs, people who want to drive the clinical medical, but also want to run a business. And [00:35:30] looking at that, that surprised me. Um, and therefore is a knock on effect. I was quite [00:35:35] surprised by the commercial aspect in some regions and certainly in North America, you know, discussions [00:35:40] we’re having with practice managers, practice owners, how do you scale the revenue, etc.. That’s surprising me a little bit. [00:35:45] And what also surprised me was when I went more to Asia, the [00:35:50] lack of investment in oral health, you know, I everyone takes [00:35:55] good care of their teeth, right? And I’m a clinician and I can’t stand their breath. There’s something going on [00:36:00] here, right? Like, why is that? And I’m like, why, why are we [00:36:05] so much more developed here in the West? And certainly kind of Western Europe and North America than we are [00:36:10] in China. Japan when it comes to oral health. What’s the underlying cause for that? That completely surprised me. And [00:36:15] I wonder, and this is a complete hypothesis, right? Is it truly about the clinical research [00:36:20] that we’ve done there versus here and the acceptance of clinical research? I don’t know. Um, [00:36:25] but that really shocked me. It really shocked me when I came into the category.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. [00:36:30] I mean, I remember during Covid, some of the, [00:36:35] when you say businessmen, the people that even [00:36:40] a single practice owner, some of the resourcefulness that people showed at that time, [00:36:45] you know, getting, getting their team on board, communicating with their patients, all the PPE [00:36:50] stuff, when really we didn’t know what was going to happen. No one knew what was going [00:36:55] to happen. Some people, I remember thinking, what the hell is going to happen to our whole business [00:37:00] at that same time? There were people investing heavily, building out, [00:37:05] adding extra surgeries, you know, Confident in the idea that things [00:37:10] will get back to normal again. And as a profession, I think, you know, I [00:37:15] think we’re lucky in one sense that in in an uptime, [00:37:20] we do quite well.

Andrew Bower: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But in a recession we do quite well.

Andrew Bower: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:37:25] there aren’t many businesses like that.

Andrew Bower: There isn’t. And there is the, the capital, shall [00:37:30] we say, play in Covid where, you know, it’s a time to invest when the market’s down, right? Yeah, yeah. [00:37:35] Down people to invest. So if you’re selling, people are doing that. But I agree with you. It is relatively [00:37:40] robust shall we say. Um, I think we’re seeing increased consolidation [00:37:45] across the board. And, and I think why I think we’re seeing that [00:37:50] is due to the administration side of things, right. Administration doesn’t get [00:37:55] easier. It gets more intense. And how can I offload that to focus on my practice [00:38:00] and the care I provide?

Payman Langroudi: I think when you deal with Bupa [00:38:05] As as a group. And then when you deal with other groups, you see [00:38:10] how differently people manage their businesses completely. And by the way, every [00:38:15] single practice, I must have visited a thousand practices. Each one is very different where [00:38:20] you’d imagine everything’s very similar. Um, and at this conference, I’ve noticed [00:38:25] and you guys really massive kudos to Bupa that I find it difficult [00:38:30] getting culture over to our 35 people.

Andrew Bower: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And you guys are 8000 [00:38:35] people and you’ve got the same sort of feeling, nice feeling [00:38:40] in the atmosphere of this conference. How do you guys deal with culture? What is [00:38:45] it to be working at Philips? What’s the difference between working at Philips and working somewhere else? [00:38:50]

Andrew Bower: It sounds it’s all about purpose. You know, every person you speak to at Philips is about the purpose, [00:38:55] and the purpose is about improving lives. And yes, it is a a big corporate enterprise. [00:39:00] And we play in every corner of the world. But everyone is motivated to drive positive [00:39:05] outcomes for either patients or consumers and clinicians. And [00:39:10] that purpose is what drives, drives us and being very single minded on that. Um, that’s [00:39:15] the rallying message. And I think that’s been.

Payman Langroudi: Practically how do you do it? I mean.

Andrew Bower: Oh, practically. [00:39:20]

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got an office in Jakarta and you want to change something. How do [00:39:25] you get that story through so many people, how.

Andrew Bower: We do things like this, right. We do things like this conference. Yeah, yeah. You know, [00:39:30] we bring people from around the globe together. We bring them together twice a year. We talk about what’s coming, [00:39:35] what’s working, what are we going to do next? And we’ve got, since Covid, [00:39:40] shall we say, incredibly good at doing all of that virtually. Yeah. You know, we have big regional hubs. We will [00:39:45] do a big event like this. We’ll bring people in. We’ll also do big watch parties, you know, and we’ll try and drive that [00:39:50] message. And then we’ll repeat that message every time we travel and we’re in there and we’ll host something to do [00:39:55] the same thing. But repetition is key, and creating a sense of belonging [00:40:00] is absolutely key. You know, you’ve got a sense of purpose, you’ve got a sense of belonging, and you feel empowered to do your work. [00:40:05] People are very loyal and people want to achieve good things. And that’s absolutely critical [00:40:10] for driving, shall we say, engagement and driving successful outcomes, both clinically [00:40:15] but also financially.

Payman Langroudi: How have you guys implemented AI in the business so [00:40:20] far? Do you see it as being much bigger thing going [00:40:25] forward?

Andrew Bower: I think AI is going to revolutionise everything we do. I think [00:40:30] we will lead with people, will drive process with AI, and [00:40:35] we are continuously looking at user cases and piloting [00:40:40] across the business, whether that’s supply chain, whether that’s R&D, whether [00:40:45] that’s marketing, whether that’s Dental. Ai is adopted everywhere, [00:40:50] and we are on a absolute mantra to get everybody [00:40:55] using AI every day to ensure that they can drive efficiencies. I [00:41:00] think, And I. And I think it’s going to truly help. I think [00:41:05] the one thing that we’re not talking about AI is the rising cost of AI. You know.

Payman Langroudi: The token [00:41:10] cost.

Andrew Bower: Yeah, the token cost, the token cost is incredibly, incredibly low. But it’s a big business [00:41:15] risk, right? That will go up. The more we get addicted, the more it’s going to go up. So it’s something we [00:41:20] have to plan for. You know, as we look at risk profiling as a business that actually the cost of AI [00:41:25] is going to is going to tremendously increase as we we continue then. [00:41:30]

Payman Langroudi: Have you had a frank conversation about job losses at Philips [00:41:35] because of AI?

Andrew Bower: Um. We. [00:41:40] The job losses, [00:41:45] productivity, as we would call it, productivity. Yes [00:41:50] and no. Right. Have we got to the stage yet where we think AI is replacing [00:41:55] people? No. Do we think we can make people more efficient? Yes. Could that lead to productivity [00:42:00] in the long term potentially, or it means the repurposing of people where we are. You know, I [00:42:05] take my my example, right? We’ve got a, you know, a workforce [00:42:10] in the US who visiting dentists every day. And I’ve also got a big workforce [00:42:15] who sat in a central office in Nashville who are answering customer calls. Yeah. Do I [00:42:20] believe that we can enhance that customer experience and that 100% [00:42:25] with AI? Do I think we could use that workforce 100%? Can I reapply that into [00:42:30] the field 100%? I want to focus on building relationships and automate everything [00:42:35] else we can do. To me. I see it more as repurpose and focus [00:42:40] on the people and then optimise where we can with with automation.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a good way [00:42:45] of looking at it, but but at the same time, you know, the two things must go together. If you can increase [00:42:50] productivity with fewer people, then there [00:42:55] must be a conversation, which I don’t hear the conversation very much at all anywhere.

Andrew Bower: No, it’s interesting.

Payman Langroudi: What happens when [00:43:00] people lose their jobs.

Andrew Bower: Yeah, I think I think.

Payman Langroudi: Not only to them, what happens to all of us. [00:43:05]

Andrew Bower: Happens to all of us. No, I fully.

Payman Langroudi: Agree with toothbrushes.

Andrew Bower: I fully agree with you. And I think to me, the question is, is it about people losing jobs or [00:43:10] can you drive? Exponential growth in the business.

Payman Langroudi: Continued across the board?

Andrew Bower: No. Or can you drive that? [00:43:15] Can that can I help us drive step change to growth of the business that allows us to continuously invest in people? [00:43:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Very interesting. It’s been a massive pleasure.

Andrew Bower: To have you. [00:43:25]

Payman Langroudi: If there’s any questions, the QR code and I’ll read [00:43:30] out some of my favourites. Has anyone got any questions. Oh there are. What [00:43:35] is your ultimate [00:43:40] day look like. Oh personal or professional.

Andrew Bower: Oh my ultimate day. [00:43:45] Ultimate day. Get up, get up at six. Jim. Jim by 630 in the office by 830. [00:43:50]

Payman Langroudi: Do you do that? Anyway?

Andrew Bower: I do that three times a week in the office. 830 If I’m in [00:43:55] the office, ideally speaking to a customer or a consumer first thing, either [00:44:00] connect or go and visit one. Come back. Then, with the team reviewing [00:44:05] whatever projects we have going on, and then ideally spend a bit [00:44:10] of time at the end of the day, uh, reading consumer or clinical verbatims [00:44:15] of what’s happening.

Payman Langroudi: Are [00:44:20] you going to fight to zoom versus enlighten? I like that. Yeah.

Speaker 5: Yeah, that’s a great one.

Payman Langroudi: Anonymous question. [00:44:25] Everyone [00:44:30] talks about AI and 3D printing, [00:44:35] but what’s on trend in dentistry for 2040 that you think is totally overhyped right now? What a. [00:44:40]

Andrew Bower: Brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant, brilliant question.

Andrew Bower: What’s overhyped? Brilliant [00:44:45] question, brilliant question. I [00:44:50] could argue systemic health.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, everyone’s [00:44:55] talking about it.

Andrew Bower: Talking about it. We’ve got a long way to go to it, right? Um, again, [00:45:00] you know, you’ve got to drive visibility. [00:45:05] Visibility creates a bias to action. And is it how deep does it [00:45:10] have to go to make people just care, take better care of themselves?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Another, [00:45:15] another mischievous one. What sets Sonicare apart from Oral-B? I don’t [00:45:20] need to answer.

Andrew Bower: Give me 30s for the pitch.

Payman Langroudi: Go for it, go [00:45:25] for it.

Andrew Bower: Look, I think our job is to drive manual to power conversion, right? We want people who are using a manual [00:45:30] toothbrush to use a Sonicare. And I believe Sonicare is an easier way to transition because you don’t have to [00:45:35] change your behaviour how you brush. So convert with Sonicare. Do you use a Sonicare?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I do.

Andrew Bower: Good. [00:45:40]

Payman Langroudi: I love.

Andrew Bower: It.

Payman Langroudi: No, I do, I do, I do. It’s my favourite.

Andrew Bower: Good. [00:45:45]

Payman Langroudi: I haven’t tried the incumbent. Sorry. The new the new insurgent that [00:45:50] everyone’s talking about. Interesting question. Philips is an $18 billion [00:45:55] global health tech. Org with heavy regulatory, safety and quality obligations [00:46:00] at smaller start ups don’t carry. How do you innovate at speed, especially when [00:46:05] clinicians increasingly want to trial new solutions quickly and start-ups can iterate in [00:46:10] days rather than quarters. What a brilliant question.

Andrew Bower: A brilliant question, and hit the nail on the head, right? How [00:46:15] do you drive agility in a corporate, in a corporate? And that’s actually one of the key challenges, right? Yeah. [00:46:20] We have to continuously look at how we drive that agility to keep up speed, but [00:46:25] nothing compromises on quality. And what I mean quality, I mean also [00:46:30] regulatory. And I also mean clinical efficacy. So we will only deliver products that [00:46:35] truly add a benefit. And that takes a little bit longer than me going to China buying a toothbrush and put it on the market. [00:46:40] I could do that tomorrow. I won’t do that. I’ll make sure that it works. Yeah. [00:46:45]

Payman Langroudi: But but the question still stands insomuch as how, how do you do, [00:46:50] how do you do agility across such a.

Andrew Bower: So I think for us Supertanker. Well, it comes back [00:46:55] to. Actually, it comes back to your first question. How far ahead do you think. Yeah. You think on a ten year horizon [00:47:00] it’s actually not about the agility of the day. It’s about actually predicting the future and making [00:47:05] sure you have your work streams in place to deliver on that, on a cadence that makes sense. And actually [00:47:10] looking at the business cadence of what you deliver is the key to beating that, because then it’s [00:47:15] sustainable and it’s replicable and builds off platforms which are critical for [00:47:20] delivering.

Payman Langroudi: Final question. Mark talks about legacy. [00:47:25]

Andrew Bower: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What do you want your legacy to be in your time?

Andrew Bower: Um, [00:47:30] my legacy to be. That’s a good question. Yeah, I think. I [00:47:35] want my legacy to be [00:47:40] that we’ve managed to again, we’ve, I’ve significantly created products and services that [00:47:45] have improved patients and consumers lives. So if I can look back on my career and say, [00:47:50] actually, these devices or services made an impact to improve someone’s well-being [00:47:55] on a day to day basis. I’d be very happy.

Payman Langroudi: Final Dental [00:48:00] Leaders question. We tend to end with the fantasy dinner party. Three guests, [00:48:05] three guests. Dead or alive.

Andrew Bower: Ernest Shackleton.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andrew Bower: Fantastic [00:48:10] leadership story and survival. Probably one of the greatest.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t [00:48:15] tell the audience. If someone.

Andrew Bower: Yeah, if you don’t know. He went. He went down to the South Pole, got stuck, spent [00:48:20] a winter trying to get out of there, then made a small boat, sailed it for another [00:48:25] few months across the Southern Ocean. Hit an island, hiked over an island, [00:48:30] came back a year later, and not one of his team members had died. Tremendous story. [00:48:35] I think Leonardo da Vinci. I think fabulous, creative, [00:48:40] but also engineer. I admire his engineering.

Payman Langroudi: Both sides.

Andrew Bower: Yeah. And I [00:48:45] admire his engineering more than his art, if I’m honest with you. I think absolute genius when it comes to engineering, [00:48:50] which is absolutely fascinating. And I’m just personally [00:48:55] interested in Nelson Mandela also from his leadership, leadership and [00:49:00] tenacity. How do you continue to keep going when the, shall [00:49:05] we say, the bricks or whatever is pretty low? Yeah. So yeah, I think it’d be quite a fun dinner. [00:49:10] Well, it might not be that fun, but it’d be really interesting doing a party.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a pleasure [00:49:15] having you. Thank you.

Andrew Bower: For being.

Payman Langroudi: So.

Andrew Bower: Open. Thank you for being here. And to you for having me here. Thank you. Appreciate [00:49:20] it. It [00:49:25] was a bit of joining in there. I like that.

Andrew Bower: So now it’s time for the final session of the day. [00:49:30] I’m going to spend about 90 minutes taking you through everything that we’ve covered. No, seriously. [00:49:35] I’m just going to do a few wrap up comments just to finish the day before I do [00:49:40] that. I must do this now. Otherwise I will forget. I’ve got to take a selfie with the whole [00:49:45] audience. So come on, show some energy like you’re enjoying yourself. Brilliant. [00:49:50] That will be on Mark Alan Dental [00:49:55] on Instagram later. I’ve I’ve got 803 followers now, so I’m [00:50:00] doing quite well. Maybe I can get to 810 by the end of the the the day. So yeah, [00:50:05] just a few closing thoughts from me. Um, first of all, I want to say a massive [00:50:10] thank you to everyone who’s been involved in putting this incredible event together. Firstly, [00:50:15] our sponsors, you’ve seen their names all over the shop on the screen, you’ve seen their [00:50:20] videos, you’ve seen their stands. And none of this would be possible without the contribution that they [00:50:25] make. So a massive thank you to everyone who’s been involved from that perspective. Um, [00:50:30] ICC [00:50:35] Birmingham, I think it’s been a tremendous location. We’ve basically taken the whole place over [00:50:40] for two days. You’ve seen Dental health is live. You’ve seen Bupa dental care everywhere, but [00:50:45] the way the venues worked and the support we’ve had has also been amazing, as has the support we’ve had from [00:50:50] telex.

Andrew Bower: Who are the team you see buzzing around, miking us up and making sure everything runs to plan? [00:50:55] So thank you to both ICC Birmingham and Telex. And [00:51:00] the biggest thank [00:51:05] you is to the team of people who’ve put this together. We started the journey of doing [00:51:10] the second Dental Health is live conference about a year ago. So much earlier than the [00:51:15] last one. Um, the team have done an incredible job. If you saw how smoothly [00:51:20] the organisation has gone, um, the, the, what’s the right, the right [00:51:25] word, they just haven’t been demanding of, of any of our time. They’ve asked us for decisions when we’ve needed them. [00:51:30] They’ve given us everything we needed. I went on and on and on about the need for [00:51:35] a beating blue heart, wherever you can see it. And they managed to deliver that. Um, honestly, [00:51:40] the organisation has been incredible and the working party, you all know who you are [00:51:45] have been superb, but in particular, Christian and Vicky, who’ve been at the forefront [00:51:50] of everything, have done an unbelievable job of putting something like this together. It’s really hard to do. [00:51:55] So thank you so much for creating the experience. So [00:52:05] you’ve probably noticed over the last two days, pretty much everything has been put together and hangs [00:52:10] on this, this formula here, the four P’s, the new places rather than practices. [00:52:15]

Andrew Bower: And then we introduced this concept of, of as one, this incredible [00:52:20] opportunity that we’ve got with all of these unique assets that we have within the Bupa group that [00:52:25] make us different to all of our competitors. And the other thing that’s been really true, I think about [00:52:30] as one is even yesterday when I was on the stage, I still felt a bit like we were still talking about [00:52:35] Bupa like some other company. Um, but I feel like somehow in the last 24 hours that’s [00:52:40] evaporated and I genuinely feel like I’m in a room of people who either work with Bupa as clinicians [00:52:45] or work for Bupa as employees. And trust me, that is incredibly powerful [00:52:50] for us to be able to now move forward as one organisation, all pointing in the same direction, and then enabling [00:52:55] us to deliver that performance health that we’re looking to do, which, as we said yesterday, enables [00:53:00] us then to keep reinvesting in the business and keep moving forward and making sure that we can be at the forefront [00:53:05] of that 2040 picture that we just heard about. Um, I hope [00:53:10] you’ve all got over the shock of a bunch of dancers appearing at the start of yesterday. Um, I, [00:53:15] I’ve watched that video back about 30 times and it gave me real energy. Um, and if [00:53:20] you remember, when I came on, I talked about that piece that they did being about empowerment.

Andrew Bower: And we said over [00:53:25] these two days, our job with all of you is to try and harness the energy here and unlock [00:53:30] something special so that we can go and do amazing things together. Um, and I feel [00:53:35] like again, that’s been really harnessed and the energy, honestly, over the last two days has been absolutely [00:53:40] superb. I guess the thing with conferences like this is. [00:53:45] First of all, they do cost a lot of money. Secondly, they take a bit of time in organising. [00:53:50] There’s a massive sacrifice from all of you to be here. Clinicians not being in in [00:53:55] surgery, you not being in your practices. Um, I saw the trading results from yesterday [00:54:00] at 1040 this morning and I felt a little bit sick and a bit depressed. Um, [00:54:05] but this is a massive investment and it’s only worth doing if we move beyond [00:54:10] just having a really nice time for two days. But if we go back to our practices, to our support [00:54:15] centre, to our functions, and basically decide that we’re going to start doing things even better [00:54:20] tomorrow, we’re going to take the stuff that we’ve taken on board, the things that you’ve learned in the in the [00:54:25] clinical sessions or the, the other learning sessions, or just the messages that you’ve picked up or the conversations [00:54:30] that you’ve had.

Andrew Bower: We have to take that and then kick on again tomorrow. And it’s [00:54:35] not about doing loads more new things. It’s about taking the spirit of this conference [00:54:40] and integrating it into your to do lists and resolving to be even better and just fill those gaps, [00:54:45] particularly that piece around the leaky bucket. So please do take this and take [00:54:50] it back in with you. Um, tomorrow there is a dental health is live [00:54:55] um, toolkit in a box. I think that’s on its way to you that you can then go back and share [00:55:00] with your practices and try and keep that spirit going. So please do everything you can to, to really [00:55:05] make sure we keep this energy going. And the final thing for me really is [00:55:10] just to say a massive thank you to all of you. Honestly, it’s been a real privilege to be part [00:55:15] of it. It’s been really great to be able to spend time with, with, with all of you watching the energy last night, [00:55:20] even people trying to drag me up. I did make it onto the dance floor. I was in the centre of the [00:55:25] mosh pit, which I thought was fine. Um, but my dance lie at the start of yesterday’s [00:55:30] session was exposed when I saw a video this morning of some really, really bad dad dancing.

Andrew Bower: Um, [00:55:35] but your energy’s been really superb. And what’s been really energising [00:55:40] for me personally is two things. One is the number of people who’ve come up to tell me [00:55:45] that the things that we’re doing are making a difference. So, you know, I’ve got this new chair. Thank you. [00:55:50] This has been great. Or I’ve learned something. That session really moved me. All of that stuff is great. [00:55:55] But what’s just as powerful is a number of you have still come up and said, can I talk to you? In fact, I’ve [00:56:00] seen you out of the corner of my eye, waiting while I’m talking to someone else. And I’ve spoken to you and you’ve [00:56:05] said, thank you for the conference. It’s been great, but can I tell you about something that’s still not good enough? And [00:56:10] that is what will help us move forward. We mustn’t lose that ability to keep calling out the things that we need [00:56:15] to do better, and particularly that us as a Dental executive team need to stay focussed [00:56:20] on so we make your lives easier so you can carry on doing amazing things for our patients. So thank [00:56:25] you so much for everything. It’s a real privilege to to have been here with you over the last two days. [00:56:30] And please have a safe journey back to wherever you’re travelling. So thanks very much.

Payman Langroudi: Anterior composites are an area that a lot of us have trouble with, and the [00:00:05] magic that you get from a patient where you haven’t drilled their teeth and yet [00:00:10] you’ve improved their appearance, is something that you know. The more whitening you do, the more aligners [00:00:15] you do, the more anterior composites you’ll have to do. If you’re not 100% on them, [00:00:20] get yourself on a course like Mini Smile Makeover with Dipesh Parmar. Visit Mini Smile [00:00:25] makeover.com for dates and details.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [00:00:40] in dentistry. Your hosts [00:00:45] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me [00:00:50] great pleasure to welcome Ian Dunn onto the podcast. Ian is a specialist periodontist [00:00:55] um taught at Liverpool You clan, I noticed [00:01:00] and also teach GDPs on as well with the um, perio [00:01:05] courses. That’s right. Um, massive pleasure to have you, my buddy. Thanks for coming. Finally. [00:01:10] It’s been.

Payman Langroudi: A pleasure. I know we’ve been talking about this for a very long time, haven’t we?

Payman Langroudi: Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: I remember getting the message from you about a [00:01:15] couple of weeks ago saying, where are we up to with this? And yeah, the last message before that was about nine months ago, I think. So [00:01:20] somehow we got lost in the aether, didn’t we?

Payman Langroudi: And you’re a Scouser? Born and bred.

Payman Langroudi: I am, yeah, for my [00:01:25] sins. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what, the University of Liverpool as well?

Payman Langroudi: No. Uh, I [00:01:30] chose I went to Leeds. Yeah. Um, but then I ended up moving straight [00:01:35] back because my girlfriend at the time was also from Liverpool. Um, and she was [00:01:40] a solicitor, so she got her first legal job there and that dragged us, dragged me back to Liverpool [00:01:45] to sort of be with her.

Payman Langroudi: That’s your wife.

Payman Langroudi: Now. Yeah. And she is now my wife, so it was a good move. [00:01:50]

Payman Langroudi: Did you meet him in university?

Payman Langroudi: No, we actually met at home. Believe it or not, she was at university [00:01:55] in Manchester. Um, we met at home. We struck up a relationship. We made it work while [00:02:00] we were both away at uni, and, uh. Yeah, it’s. We’ve all lived happily ever after.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:02:05] which which student were you?

Payman Langroudi: Um, I [00:02:10] was probably I was a bit of a work hard, play hard type person.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:02:15] I was certainly successful humans. Yeah. I needed [00:02:20] to work hard. I don’t think I’m naturally gifted in terms of intelligence. I’m not stupid, [00:02:25] but I’m not super academic. Um, I don’t mind telling you, I reset [00:02:30] one of my A-levels because I dipped out initially and did an extra year to go, you know, get what I [00:02:35] wanted. I do think once I got to university, I did thrive because I’d found the thing [00:02:40] that I loved and I found studying much easier than I had found my A-levels.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I really did. [00:02:45]

Payman Langroudi: That’s different. Yeah, people get shocked. I got shocked in university. Biochemistry and anatomy. [00:02:50] I broke my heart.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t get me wrong, the first year was a chore. But once I hit the clinical bit, I. [00:02:55]

Payman Langroudi: Love.

Payman Langroudi: That. I loved it, I absolutely loved it. Um, and so yeah, [00:03:00] but then in, in the background, I was a swimmer and water polo player. So I captained [00:03:05] the water polo team at the university. So that was a big part of my life. And also a big part of the social, [00:03:10] the social scene. Um, and I was the first person to put my hand up for a party or, you [00:03:15] know, so I really did. Yeah. University was just.

Payman Langroudi: Which one were you? What years were you in Leeds? [00:03:20]

Payman Langroudi: 93 to 98. It’s a really good time. Leeds was changing. It went from [00:03:25] a sort of a Yorkshire city town to what was quite a sort of booming, [00:03:30] more cosmopolitan city. Harvey Nicks came to Leeds at that time.

Payman Langroudi: I remember.

Payman Langroudi: Um [00:03:35] and it was great. It was a great time to be a student in Leeds, really was.

Payman Langroudi: I was there recently for a [00:03:40] okay. And it reminded me that back when we started enlightened, obviously, [00:03:45] I used to go see dentists and stuff, and I’d been to Leeds a few times and [00:03:50] I got almost like a weird sort of a flashback of [00:03:55] because it’s that pedestrianised zone, isn’t it? And I used to carry this light activated [00:04:00] machine. Teeth whitening, teeth whitening machine in Leeds. I [00:04:05] walked into a place. Do you remember those Polaroid cameras? Yeah, they were for Dental. They [00:04:10] were?

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yes, yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: Do. Yeah. So I walked into this practice carrying this machine [00:04:15] and a computer and all that.

Payman Langroudi: And they were huge, weren’t they?

Payman Langroudi: And the camera around my neck. And I remember [00:04:20] I pushed the button by mistake and took a photo. I was like, I took a photo. [00:04:25] It’s a joke, man. Um, so did you think [00:04:30] that you made a decision to be very good at dentistry [00:04:35] in university or after that? Because obviously this decision came [00:04:40] in at one point when you said you want to do periodontics, but years later. Right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But [00:04:45] I’d like to think that that was more of an accident, if I’m being truly honest. I see a lot of young graduates who [00:04:50] are very focussed and very driven. Um, I think we’re a similar vintage when you go back. I [00:04:55] qualified in 98, and that was the year that the high street specialist list was sort.

Payman Langroudi: Of coming out. [00:05:00]

Payman Langroudi: That was the that was the year it became on the scene. So prior to that, you either were a GDP or you [00:05:05] were a hospital specialist. There wasn’t really a blurred sort of high street specialist. There was 1 [00:05:10] or 2. There was your Mike Wiser’s. And in the North West we had people like David Cohen, the Endodontist [00:05:15] and Phil Green. But it really wasn’t a thing. Um, and so none of us really, [00:05:20] at that time thought about specialisation unless you knew you wanted a career in the hospital. So [00:05:25] I enjoyed my university and I didn’t want to be rubbish, but I don’t [00:05:30] think I set myself out to be anything special. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Why didn’t you, I mean, did you have [00:05:35] dentists or medics in the family?

Payman Langroudi: I’m the first person in my family to go to university. Really? So my dad [00:05:40] was a policeman. Uh, my mum worked for, of all things master suite company. Really? [00:05:45] So, uh, sort of the reverse of Willy Wonka. So the dentist, Dad [00:05:50] and the chocolatey taste son were the other way around.

Payman Langroudi: So why dentist? How did it come about?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:05:55] that’s another story. So I did maths, physics and chemistry, with maths [00:06:00] and physics being my strong subjects. Me too. Um. Pick my A-levels with a view to being an engineer. [00:06:05] And I remember going to a careers day at Liverpool University to decide [00:06:10] on whether I was going to do chemical, electrical, mechanical. And every lecture I [00:06:15] went into, I walked out going, yeah, it’s not that one. And then I go to the next one and walk out. It’s not [00:06:20] that one. And then I got to the end and I was like, oh God, I don’t know what I’m going to do. And genuinely, [00:06:25] there was a panic. Um, so I then went to a, [00:06:30] a careers evening at my school. Um, this is at lower [00:06:35] sixth and I’ve got to make a decision by the Christmas for my Ucca form, as we called [00:06:40] it back then. Yeah. And I really didn’t have a clue because engineering was written off for [00:06:45] me. It had not no one had shown me anything that ticked the boxes. And so I.

Payman Langroudi: Went. Maths [00:06:50] in engineering isn’t it? It’s like.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Very maths heavy.

Payman Langroudi: It, maths and physics. But it was what I was good at [00:06:55] and that’s why I thought that’s what I was going to do. Yeah. Um and then I picked the [00:07:00] most eclectic bunch of uh, careers to go and listen to. I went to the [00:07:05] RAF, I went to law, I went to something in sports science [00:07:10] and I went to dentistry and a guy called George Lee from Liverpool University. He was [00:07:15] a paediatric consultant. He just he said a few things that made me think, [00:07:20] do you know what that’s that sounds all right. He sort of. He sold the fact that there was a science element. He [00:07:25] sold the fact that, you know, every day is different. He sold the fact that if you [00:07:30] like, if you like people, dentistry is a great job. Um, I think too [00:07:35] many people go into dentistry who don’t like people, I think, I think, and they found that very stressful. [00:07:40] And I remember leaving that, that careers evening, uh, and a load of us bear [00:07:45] in mind, we were lower six. We all went to the pub that night and um, we were chatting [00:07:50] about, you know, what we’d seen, what we’d listened to and people saying, you know, what are you going to do? I said, you know what [00:07:55] I think? I think I might look into dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: And everyone was flabbergasted. People called [00:08:00] me a money grubbing, all sorts. And I actually genuinely didn’t know any dentists [00:08:05] apart from my own, um, didn’t know that there was that legacy, but just [00:08:10] thought it seemed like a good job. Um, my mum walked down to the bottom of [00:08:15] our road and knocked on the the practice door at the bottom and asked if I could [00:08:20] do some work experience. Uh, and I went and did some work experience with two dentists, Clive [00:08:25] Harden and Mike Horwich. So you’ll know from Simply Endo. Yeah, well, he was just a local GDP at [00:08:30] the time really. And I went and spent a couple of days with those guys and just thought, you know what? [00:08:35] That’s it. That to me seems like a really great job. Um, if, [00:08:40] if they’ve not gone to that lecture by George Lee, I’d probably be doing something totally different. [00:08:45]

Payman Langroudi: It’s so funny, isn’t it? The sliding door.

Payman Langroudi: It is.

Payman Langroudi: It kind of.

Payman Langroudi: Feels that way, to be honest. I’ve [00:08:50] got a few of those in my career, but that was definitely one of them. Dentistry was not on the table, not [00:08:55] in the family.

Payman Langroudi: Had you gone to a comprehensive school?

Payman Langroudi: It [00:09:00] was a state school, but it was essentially a state grammar school. A bit [00:09:05] a little bit different, but selective entry. But we didn’t it wasn’t private. We didn’t pay to go. Um, [00:09:10] very good school. We did. The school does very well still. Um, [00:09:15] but yeah, just a bit of a strange. It was far from a comprehensive, equally it wasn’t [00:09:20] privately funded.

Payman Langroudi: But what was going through your head, I mean, being the first person to go to university [00:09:25] in your family. Um, I’ve heard I’ve had other people sitting where you’re sitting telling me they had like a sort [00:09:30] of inferiority complex, thinking of coming from a state school. I suppose this one was quite a quality [00:09:35] state school. It was the you see, sometimes people go [00:09:40] to private school. The. The one big difference You see, it’s like almost false confidence. [00:09:45] Your kids or something.

Payman Langroudi: No, no that’s not that’s not reasonable. I think [00:09:50] you’re right. The school environment I was in was it ran like a grammar school. [00:09:55] There were prefects. There were uniforms all the way through. There were everyone was.

Payman Langroudi: Well behaved and.

Payman Langroudi: Generally. [00:10:00] Yes, you know, as much as possible. Schools have characters. Yeah. Um but there was [00:10:05] a, there was an academic, a real academic push. If you got [00:10:10] through to your A-levels, you were, you were sort of expected to go to university though. So I think I’d sort of [00:10:15] gone through the school thinking, well, if I pass my exams, well, I’ll go from GCSEs [00:10:20] to A-levels over passed my A-levels, I’ll go from A-levels to to university. That just seemed to be natural [00:10:25] progression. The fact that my family had never done that didn’t really mind. Um, [00:10:30] and I think the only difficult bit was really I remember my dad saying to me when I was trying to decide what [00:10:35] to do, I can’t really advise you on anything because we’ve never done it. Um, and he was always [00:10:40] very honest, But I’ve got to be, to be fair, both very supportive.

Payman Langroudi: So how high [00:10:45] had your dad gone in the police?

Payman Langroudi: He was a constable all the way through to retirement.

Payman Langroudi: So reflections [00:10:50] of like the son of a policeman. Like what? What.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I [00:10:55] I’ll tell you what, my wife’s father was also a policeman. He went very senior police officer. [00:11:00] Um, but we, my wife and I both, we’ve talked about this recently. We have a very [00:11:05] strong sense of right and wrong and fairness. And that comes from [00:11:10] a law and order background. Mhm. Um, never really thought about [00:11:15] it too much, but but growing up in Liverpool in the sort of 80s, I suppose [00:11:20] Toxteth.

Payman Langroudi: Riots.

Payman Langroudi: Toxteth riots in the 80s, my dad policed the Toxteth riots.

Payman Langroudi: Did he, did he.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:11:25] and there was a little bit of animosity towards children of policemen amongst [00:11:30] certain people. Even though we were in a fairly middle class school, there were still some people who gave you [00:11:35] a bit of a difficult time about that. Um, deep down I was quite proud of what my dad did. It was, [00:11:40] you know, it was one of those jobs. You could say, well, it’s a right and wrong. Catching the bad guys type thing. [00:11:45] Um, but yeah, it was there were challenges, there’s no doubt about it. A few people made things a bit [00:11:50] difficult at the time.

Payman Langroudi: So you say you’ve got this sort of ethical dimension in your thinking.

Payman Langroudi: I’d [00:11:55] like to think so.

Payman Langroudi: Give me an example. I [00:12:00] mean, a nuanced one, right? Not, not an obvious one. For instance, let’s start. Let’s start [00:12:05] with, you know, what is it to be a professional? You know, in dentistry, there’s plenty of scope, isn’t there, to, [00:12:10] to go off, off piste or, you know, no one’s really [00:12:15] looking over your shoulder. No. So.

Payman Langroudi: Well, do you know you’ve already nailed it there. I’ve [00:12:20] seen this recently and I’ve, I completely agree. Being a professional is doing the right thing [00:12:25] when no one else is watching. And even when that thing that you’re doing may not be to your benefit, [00:12:30] it might be to your financial detriment, but it’s the right thing to do at the time for that [00:12:35] patient that is part of a professional approach to a clinician. [00:12:40] Um, I think there’s also elements of just general behaviour. You know, I think the way you live your [00:12:45] life, the, the way you publicise yourself to the public, [00:12:50] you know, that that upholds hopefully trust in the profession. Um, [00:12:55] and I think there’s elements of that that is being diluted. Um, uh, social media [00:13:00] does that, doesn’t it? I think people.

Payman Langroudi: Are we talking, are you thinking of, uh, private jets [00:13:05] and um, that, that whole.

Payman Langroudi: Not even just that I mean, that reinforces the stereotype [00:13:10] that dentistry is all about finance and money. And whilst for some people, I think it is, I [00:13:15] spend a lot of time, I have a lot of people come and shadow me in the practice, a lot of um, foundation dentists, a lot [00:13:20] of people who are thinking of getting into perio, so many good people in dentistry who really [00:13:25] are just in it for the patient and just want to do the right thing, that I’d love that [00:13:30] to be seen more by the public. And I don’t think it is because we’re in a world of who shouts [00:13:35] the loudest gets the most attention. Um, and I do think that to [00:13:40] a point waters down professional the profession, whether whether we say professionalism. [00:13:45] But I think deep down it’s putting the patient first, doing the right thing. [00:13:50] Um, even like, even like when you said no one’s really over your shoulder at [00:13:55] some point, those things when you’re doing the wrong thing and they’re going to come back and bite you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Or not. Right. [00:14:00] But as you say, as you say, the one of the cornerstones of being a professional is that [00:14:05] I mean, it’s interesting because, you know, there’s, there are benefits to being a professional. [00:14:10] Yeah. Take it down to simple, you know, why, why do they patients come to you [00:14:15] to sign off their passports? Yeah. There’s a, there’s a, there’s an ethical dimension there. They’re not saying, go [00:14:20] to the pizza guy and sign your passport. And so with those benefits come responsibilities. [00:14:25] And I think the number one one in dentistry is that question of trust and [00:14:30] the privilege of the patient privilege of, of patient allowing you to be their [00:14:35] dentist and taking that seriously. Right. And you’re right, that conversation may not be had [00:14:40] enough on social. I think you mean social social. [00:14:45] Focusing on the wrong things.

Payman Langroudi: I think it is. I think you know that that doing [00:14:50] the right thing for the patient is probably not talked about. It’s not celebrated enough. [00:14:55] I think plenty of people do it.

Payman Langroudi: Um Kelleher and the daughter test [00:15:00] kind of thing was in our day was was a thing wasn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: I think so. And I think [00:15:05] I do think those tests still apply. Um, I genuinely [00:15:10] think, I like to think every night when I go to bed, every patient that see me that day is [00:15:15] better off for having seen me for sure. Genuinely clinically better off. Yes, they’ve [00:15:20] paid and they’ll pay, you know, handsomely for specialist care. But, you know, it’s rare that [00:15:25] we’re doing stuff to people that they don’t benefit from. And there isn’t ultimately an underlying [00:15:30] negative to what we’ve just done. I mean, we all have mistakes. And yeah, I’m sure you might cover those [00:15:35] later on.

Payman Langroudi: We’ll be going into those.

Payman Langroudi: But yeah, I think generally I like to, you know, I put my head [00:15:40] on the pillow and think, you know what? Today I’ve helped people, uh, people are better off and haven’t been under my [00:15:45] care. And that’s quite a nice feeling. I don’t ever sit there thinking, oh, that was [00:15:50] a bit dodgy or give them a time again. I wouldn’t do that again. You know, I lie with my head on the pillow [00:15:55] because I’ve got a family and I’m happy to tell patients, no, that I won’t do stuff. You [00:16:00] know, what people want. And what I’m prepared to do is a fine balance. You know, I’ll always do what’s right. And I’ll always try and save [00:16:05] people from themselves, um, and guide them as best possible. Uh, and I [00:16:10] think.

Payman Langroudi: But that’s kind of interesting as well, right? Because, you know, the daughter test, would [00:16:15] you do this treatment on your own daughter? Yeah, yeah. It kind of ignores the consent [00:16:20] part of, of it because, you know, it’s almost like your daughter will do what she’s told by [00:16:25] you. Yeah, yeah. And it depends, man. It depends if your daughter is, uh, whatever [00:16:30] model. And she wants to drill these teeth to put [00:16:35] veneers on them, even though she’s 24. Yeah. You, as the dentist may say, I don’t [00:16:40] think that’s the right idea, but the consent point goes to once [00:16:45] you’ve given the the information to her. Yeah, it’s her decision, not [00:16:50] yours. And you know, that sort of patriarchal thing that that doctors and dentists used to know best. Yeah. [00:16:55] That’s certainly not the case anymore. Right.

Payman Langroudi: I think that’s fair as long as the consent [00:17:00] is valid. Yeah. Because we all know you use the word trust [00:17:05] before. I think we all know that you could probably sell any treatment to any patient, whether [00:17:10] it be the right or the wrong treatment, because there is that trust and you can make anything sound good, bad or indifferent. [00:17:15] Yeah. So I think it goes back to validity. Have you really given the pros and the cons and [00:17:20] and that I’m not convinced is done across the board as well as it could be. And I think ultimately, [00:17:25] at the end of the day, we can reserve the right to say to the patient, look, you can have this done, but [00:17:30] I’m not going to be the person who does it. And we do that with our patients. We especially with some of our implant [00:17:35] patients, we. One of the practice policies and people don’t always agree with this is we say to [00:17:40] patients, we don’t put implants into smokers because we get increased failures, increased call [00:17:45] out increased complications. And we we stress you can have implants. Smoking [00:17:50] does not contraindicate you, but we don’t want to accept the additional risk. And we’d ask that you seek a [00:17:55] second opinion or you stop smoking, and then we’ll open up the floodgates [00:18:00] and we’ll do the very best for you. So I think you can still apply the door to test. [00:18:05] And the patient could still choose to have the treatment that you don’t think is right. I think we still reserve [00:18:10] the right not to do it and not have the attitude, well, if someone’s going to do it, I might as well do it. I still [00:18:15] I still like to think that if I don’t think it’s right, I’m actually not going to do it. And I’m [00:18:20] lucky that my chair is always going to be full. In the north west of England. There’s so few periodontists. [00:18:25] Um. I’m drowning in work. I can afford to say to people [00:18:30] this is not a case for me. Um. And walk away from it.

Payman Langroudi: Although when [00:18:35] we think back to that professional discussion, you know, I hear you, I hear you. You’re [00:18:40] saying the motivation isn’t even there. Um, but if you’re a professional, then you’re [00:18:45] not going to do that wrong thing anyway. But but but let’s, let’s move on.

Payman Langroudi: No [00:18:50] it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Good. Tell me, how many years did you practice as a generalist? [00:18:55]

Payman Langroudi: I did about seven years as an NHS GDP. [00:19:00] Um, in that time I had started [00:19:05] teaching a day a week at Liverpool. Initially, I just got [00:19:10] a job in the sort of A&E department sort of doing any old. I just wanted to be around the [00:19:15] academic institution really and get involved. So that wasn’t actually a teaching role. And [00:19:20] then the job came up. Um, and I didn’t want to be a periodontist, I. I [00:19:25] got this.

Payman Langroudi: Off the most sexy sounding.

Payman Langroudi: But true story this. I was on the clinic. [00:19:30] Um, I was, I was consenting somebody for an extraction on the A.D department [00:19:35] and a lady came in lady called Eileen Thiel. Uh, I had never met this lady before. [00:19:40] And she walked in and she said to me, are you Ian Dunn? And I said, yes. And she said, come upstairs and [00:19:45] see me. I need to speak to you. And when she walked out, I said to my nurse, who’s that? And they said, oh, [00:19:50] Eileen Thiel, what have you done wrong? Because she had this reputation for, you know, she was one of gay [00:19:55] people, a bit of a rollicking. Um, anyway, went upstairs, spoke to her and she said, oh, you know, your name [00:20:00] has been put forward as someone who’s a good guy. Keen. Um, we’ve got an opportunity for teaching. [00:20:05] And I thought, fantastic, let’s hope it’s something sexy like endo or crown and bridge [00:20:10] or um, and she said, it’s perio. And I thought, oh God. Right. Okay. And, [00:20:15] but I thought, right, I mean, because I needed to get off the ground floor at Liverpool ground floor was like the, [00:20:20] the workhorse department upstairs was teaching. I thought, just get upstairs, get this job. [00:20:25] They’ll realise I’m a good guy. They’ll give me one of the more sexy jobs. Let’s just take the job. Take the job. [00:20:30] And and that. That was the beginning of my career. Uh, there’s [00:20:35] more to that.

Payman Langroudi: But that opportunity was there, so it wasn’t initially a period job. But you asked [00:20:40] about general dentist about 7 to 8 years as a GDP Udas [00:20:45] were coming, and I wasn’t a high grossing dentist at all. Um, [00:20:50] there’s probably a story behind that, I suppose, but it wasn’t particularly high grossing dentist. Um, and [00:20:55] so I moved towards the private sector and ran [00:21:00] that alongside my one day a week. Uh, but, but I was building perio interest. I was [00:21:05] actually focusing my postgrad on perio at this point. Um, but I was very much a general dentist probably, [00:21:10] well, 2008, ten years, at least ten years doing [00:21:15] a significant chunk of general dentistry, which is, I think, again, very different [00:21:20] to modern young specialists. Uh, you know, I do think [00:21:25] one of the things that comes across when I lecture is I’ve walked a mile in most people’s shoes. [00:21:30] Um, I have done NHS, I have worked in fairly grotty, [00:21:35] you know, fully exempt type practices. I’ve done the whole shebang. [00:21:40] Um, and I think when I then teach, I’m not coming from that ivory [00:21:45] tower, sort of never seen it, never done it. Uh, and I, and I’m told that [00:21:50] comes across so, but yeah, a long time as a GDP and I’ve never lost those GDP skills. I’ve got [00:21:55] about 40 patients who followed me over the years. As far as they’re concerned, I’m their general dentist. [00:22:00] Still see them.

Payman Langroudi: And do you still teach in the hospital?

Payman Langroudi: No, I left in 2018.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:22:05] my question is, if in 2018 you were teaching and you saw a fourth [00:22:10] year student who was taking a particular interest in perio, and [00:22:15] they said, look, Ian, a love perio, Would your advice be still, [00:22:20] go out and do general first before focusing [00:22:25] in.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, not not even just perio. I my view is that [00:22:30] for you to be an all rounded specialist within the restorative specialities, I [00:22:35] think you’ve got to have a broad overview of how.

Payman Langroudi: Would you not get that in perio training. [00:22:40] Do they not. So I mean there must be like restorative training in period training. Right.

Payman Langroudi: They [00:22:45] do. I mean I’ve never done that mono speciality training route. And mine was a bit back to front [00:22:50] and made up as we go along a little bit. Um and I do think they, [00:22:55] you know, I listened to a couple of your podcasts, listen to Payman Minhaj. He was a Liverpool graduate from [00:23:00] when I was there.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you know her.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah I do.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, she mentioned you.

Payman Langroudi: She’s she’s going to go on and do great things. [00:23:05] Uh, she.

Payman Langroudi: Loves gums, man.

Payman Langroudi: We all love gums.

Payman Langroudi: Periodontists do love your job. [00:23:10]

Payman Langroudi: It’s a disease of its own that we love it that much. Um, but [00:23:15] yeah, she talked about working with the people and she, you know, and I think that’s [00:23:20] there. But working in a busy general practice environment, the diagnostic skills [00:23:25] that you get from seeing the aches, the pains, the toothaches, the decision making that [00:23:30] I still use that every single day. Um, and, and I’m [00:23:35] not convinced it’s as hard wired if you’ve just done the very pure mono [00:23:40] spec programs. Don’t get me wrong, it can be everything can be learned, everything can be developed, but I do. I [00:23:45] would love to see people go into speciality training just that little bit later. It’s all [00:23:50] a bit.

Payman Langroudi: It’s kind of the British way of looking at it though. Like our friends across the pond, they kind [00:23:55] of go very quickly sometimes into specialist training. And do you see that as like maybe [00:24:00] potential blind spots that they’re getting into?

Payman Langroudi: I think I go back [00:24:05] to having walked a mile in someone’s shoes.

Payman Langroudi: And referrers.

Payman Langroudi: Shoes Referrers.

Payman Langroudi: Teaching, [00:24:10] I get.

Payman Langroudi: It’s understanding the difficulties that you refer as a facing. It’s [00:24:15] understanding that they often. Especially if you’re working in NHS practices, you’re [00:24:20] often having to work within the compromise that the systems puts on you. And actually having been there [00:24:25] and done it, you understand it, and you probably just a little bit more forgiving and tolerant [00:24:30] of what you see when other people may not be quite as, as, uh, open [00:24:35] minded about it. You know, I think if you go through that only having done everything perfect forever, [00:24:40] then it becomes a bit, well, there’s only one way to do things and that’s the right way and perfection. [00:24:45]

Payman Langroudi: Um, so you made the decision once you’d gotten a bit more exposed to, [00:24:50] you know, you’re going to, I guess, sacrifice to get [00:24:55] the training. Yeah. I mean, what was, what was your period training in the end?

Payman Langroudi: So [00:25:00] the Liverpool job was purely floor walking supervised and general dentistry. [00:25:05] Uh, the students on the perio clinic. Yeah. But I, I [00:25:10] went away because So because I had got this period job, [00:25:15] I was four years qualified. I’d done loads of courses, I’d done everything occlusion, I’d [00:25:20] done endo, I’d done crown and bridge. Had I done any perio? No, because we had a hygienist [00:25:25] and they did that and that, you know, that was NHS, that was our practice. And so [00:25:30] I thought, God, I better do some proper, I better get up to speed if I’m going to be on the clinics. And [00:25:35] so I went on a course and we can talk about that later, um, [00:25:40] to get myself up to speed. And then what I found was because I was around perio and I was teaching [00:25:45] it just only basic, you know, non-surgical therapy on the clinic. [00:25:50] And because I’d been on this course, it was a four day course. And then I’d then gone back into my [00:25:55] own practice and I was just thinking about Peri a bit more. I was then starting to get better results. [00:26:00] People in my practice were starting in the NHS saying, we’ve seen some of your patients, [00:26:05] you’re getting really good outcomes. Can we send you some of our patients? And this was this [00:26:10] was, you know, this was just brilliant because people were starting to realise I was a bit bit better than others [00:26:15] at that. Some this one, this one thing. And I just thought, you know what, in going [00:26:20] back to the northwest in back, back in the early 2000, [00:26:25] we had one periodontist in the north west of England, Philip Green in Manchester. [00:26:30]

Payman Langroudi: It’s crazy isn’t it. Wasn’t that long ago.

Payman Langroudi: Mental. Um and he had a fabulous [00:26:35] reputation. He was very helpful once I put my head above the radar. Um and, [00:26:40] but Philip was the only guy. Um and Scousers don’t like going to Manchester, [00:26:45] so they, you know, they didn’t want to be referred. And I just, I saw it as, do you know what, I [00:26:50] like this and I’m good at it. And there’s an opportunity here. I then became a complete nuisance [00:26:55] to the perio staff at the hospital. I just spent every spare minute, you [00:27:00] know. Can I have my lunch with you? Can I talk to you about this? Can I watch a case that you’re doing? And [00:27:05] then again, another one of those sliding door moments. Uh, Callum Johnson moved from Leeds to Liverpool [00:27:10] as head of restorative, and he basically got rid of the mono spec [00:27:15] clinics because everything was taught individually, period, pros, cons and he [00:27:20] made everything restorative. So all the GDPs who were teaching perio were [00:27:25] moved to restorative. And Eileen Thiel, the lady I mentioned before, she [00:27:30] said, I want to keep one general dentist, uh, in the perio team. We need one extra body. [00:27:35] And so she approached me and said, look, you, you’re clearly into this. Now, [00:27:40] do you want to come on part of the team? So it’s like, great. So now now I’m starting to do actual lectures [00:27:45] and I’m running tutorials.

Payman Langroudi: But still part time, right? Still part time, still [00:27:50] GDP.

Payman Langroudi: Gdp. Well, yeah, I haven’t even started my master’s at this point. Um, [00:27:55] but they sort of spoon fed me, they gave me some very basic stuff, [00:28:00] some very, they gave me presentations to learn and deliver. Um, and then [00:28:05] ultimately, slowly but surely made those things my own. Um, but again, goes [00:28:10] back to what we were talking about before the podcast about being in the right place at the right time. But then what was coming was [00:28:15] that there were basically two people in that Perry department, plus me, and one of them was heading to retirement, [00:28:20] and they needed someone to be able to do some of the perio [00:28:25] surgery in the hospital. So because I was part of the team, they then trained [00:28:30] me up in the hospital to do perio surgery. And it was literally I would nurse for one of [00:28:35] the periodontists and watch a procedure. And then the second the next procedure that same morning, [00:28:40] they’d nurse and I’d do the procedure. It was like, see one, do one, teach one almost. [00:28:45] Um, and we, we did that 2 or 3 weeks on the road, the same procedure, [00:28:50] the same type of treatment. And then they’d let me loose to go and do that basic [00:28:55] type of treatment. And once my hands were working better, they then say, right, you’re now ready to do some sort [00:29:00] of soft tissue grafting and we’ll show you that. And we did the.

Payman Langroudi: So the type of surgery you were doing [00:29:05] back then. I remember you kind of. If non-surgical wasn’t [00:29:10] working, then you’d say, oh, now let’s do it surgically. As far as Débridement and all of [00:29:15] that, that was the kind of work. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Basic sort of pocket reduction type surgery. [00:29:20] You know, old school, modified widman flap type stuff that, you know. But yeah, simple, relatively [00:29:25] simple, but very effective at the time, you know, treatment.

Payman Langroudi: But fast forward is that [00:29:30] today no longer.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, we still I think we do a lot less surgery than we did probably 20 years ago. [00:29:35]

Payman Langroudi: Well, so what’s changed our understanding of like the patients we.

Payman Langroudi: Know how well non-surgical [00:29:40] therapy works. I think we also understand our clinical end points a bit [00:29:45] better that, you know, we used to be sort of terrified of leaving a pocket over three millimetres, [00:29:50] four millimetres. And now, you know, the BSP has come out with statements that pockets over, [00:29:55] you know, five, even maybe six millimetres that don’t bleed may not be active. And we [00:30:00] can, you know, actively monitor those cases. I think also when we do do surgery, we [00:30:05] probably do a bit more regenerative stuff. We’re trying to build build back rather than just resect. [00:30:10] So I think the surgery’s moved forwards and I think we’re also a lot less it’s a lot less [00:30:15] surgically aggressive.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s more minimally invasive.

Payman Langroudi: I’d like to think so.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re working more towards reattachment. [00:30:20] Is that right?

Payman Langroudi: Reattachment. And where we can rebuilding of the periodontal apparatus, [00:30:25] the the bone, the periodontal ligament with the regenerative techniques. But that’s there are limitations [00:30:30] with that. Um, but, but that’s developing all the time. It’s exciting where that [00:30:35] can go. But that was my hospital background. I was essentially then working as a staff grade, uh, [00:30:40] one day a week and I was still in NHS GDP, but it was off the [00:30:45] back of that, that I then realised I, I could do it, but I didn’t actually know the literature. [00:30:50] I didn’t know why I was doing the stuff sometimes. And that’s when I went off and thought, [00:30:55] right, I need to go and do a master’s now. And, and that’s, that’s what I did. And so my.

Payman Langroudi: Time.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, part [00:31:00] time.

Payman Langroudi: For four year.

Payman Langroudi: For three years with it wasn’t the full sort of [00:31:05] M Clin dent down here. I went up to. Yeah, yeah. Because I was, I was I had the clinical [00:31:10] components. I was doing that sort of over the shoulder stuff for about four years or [00:31:15] more really. Um, and eventually running my own list in the hospital being referred [00:31:20] stuff from the consultants, the sort of the prosthodontists and the endodontists to do surgical [00:31:25] perio. Um, and so I had all of that sort of over the [00:31:30] shoulder hospital training, but I just needed the academic component to fill in the gaps. And that even [00:31:35] that was for my own benefit really, because I was doing the job and I was good at it, but [00:31:40] I just felt the need to almost validate myself academically and just.

Payman Langroudi: And so was it worth it [00:31:45] in terms of do you think it was it was just an itch you had to scratch or did you actually learn [00:31:50] a lot?

Payman Langroudi: Um, I just I loved every minute of it. Did [00:31:55] you. Yeah, I was.

Payman Langroudi: Just deep dive into it.

Payman Langroudi: I decided that I love Perrier [00:32:00] and just.

Payman Langroudi: Wanted as much as.

Payman Langroudi: Possible. So it was like, tell me as much as you can. Tell me. Tell me why we [00:32:05] know this and tell me, tell me about all the classic studies and tell, you know, we I was lucky at the [00:32:10] time to be taught by um, Jose Zurdo and Cristina Romano, husband and wife team from based [00:32:15] up in the Midlands at the Carisbrook. Um, and they were, they’d been trained in Gothenburg by Jan [00:32:20] Lindhe and all like the perio gods. So I just loved every minute of spending time [00:32:25] in their company. They’re still good friends. Um, I was going back to the university [00:32:30] with all this new knowledge and annoying the periodontist there with just my enthusiasm. [00:32:35] Um, but yeah, I got, I got loads out of it. Did it make me better?

Payman Langroudi: I mean, [00:32:40] which aspect of perio at that point turned you on because you couldn’t go deep [00:32:45] into the whole autoimmune cellular level? No perio. Or you can obviously [00:32:50] go into the surgical side. You can go.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s be honest, as a youngster, you just love to do surgery, don’t [00:32:55] you? You just.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, is that it?

Payman Langroudi: You know, it was that sort of, I can do something that other people can’t do and [00:33:00] I can I can take something. You know, it. You felt different. You there was an element of [00:33:05] this is exciting. You know, surgery is exciting. I think one of the one of the running jokes, often [00:33:10] in specialist training is they can teach you surgery in three months, but it then takes three years to teach you when [00:33:15] not to do it. Um, and that’s one of the things as you, as personally as I think, [00:33:20] as we get older and more experienced, I’m less surgically aggressive than I used to [00:33:25] be. Um, just again, comes with experience and it comes from complications. [00:33:30] It comes from all sorts.

Payman Langroudi: And much less predictable than hard tissue work, [00:33:35] isn’t it? I mean, in so much, as you know, you put the gum back on that day, it looks [00:33:40] completely wrong. And then you have to sort of do it correctly so it matures into [00:33:45] the correct situation.

Payman Langroudi: I think that’s very fair. And I think you [00:33:50] ask any of the implant guys who, you know, drill holes in bone, they once [00:33:55] they’ve got that skill, they. They know that’s not the skill. It’s the manipulation. Manipulation of the soft [00:34:00] tissues, the making, the making the implant look like a tooth. And not just a not just a [00:34:05] screw in bone. Um, and you look at, you know, the guys who [00:34:10] are very, very good at their implant and their soft, their plastic surgery [00:34:15] is, is as good as anyone in the country, if not the world. Um, so yeah, it’s soft tissue [00:34:20] is very, everything heals eventually, but it can also be very unforgiving. And you know, [00:34:25] when you, when you cut something hard, like a tooth or bone tends to do as it’s told. Yeah. [00:34:30] And soft tissue, you’ve got to really know how to handle Palmer.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. He, he’s now going [00:34:35] quite deep into plastic surgery. And he was telling me that the rate of improvement [00:34:40] is so much slower than composite. Yeah. Because it’s so unpredictable. [00:34:45] It is, it is.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting that he’s going into that. I always say deep down everyone loves [00:34:50] Perrier. They just don’t know it yet. It’s a sign of maturity when you realise that perio is everything. [00:34:55] But, um. So tell him. Well done. It’s not too late.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I know, [00:35:00] he’s super interested in it. He’s even got a periodontist. Well, someone with a special interest work in the practice, but. [00:35:05] So I said to her, why are you bothering with this guy? Could do it. And he said, it’s just super interesting. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But then do [00:35:10] you know what? That it doesn’t matter what. When you find something you love, you [00:35:15] just want to dive into it as much as you can, don’t you? And I see that with, you know, I work with a couple of really good endo nerds [00:35:20] and, and they’re brilliant and they, they just love every aspect. I couldn’t wait to stop doing [00:35:25] endo.

Payman Langroudi: But do you think my thesis is wrong? You must have heard my. I’ve said it so many times. The notion of you [00:35:30] love whatever you’re good at.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t really. There isn’t. There [00:35:35] isn’t a thing in your brain that makes you more loving of gums than endo. [00:35:40]

Payman Langroudi: I think there’s. Oh, well. But then I would also say, I would argue that different [00:35:45] personalities are going to be good at different things, because perio has a huge chunk of psychology [00:35:50] and, and patient behaviour and communication, whereas [00:35:55] endo rubber dam on don’t speak to me just, you know, no disrespect to my endo friends [00:36:00] by the way. That’s true. But you know, it’s it’s a bit more, although when I say surgical, [00:36:05] it’s a bit more, I’m going to do this to you and it’s going to be fine perio, [00:36:10] the psychology and the behaviour of the patients and that that winning [00:36:15] them round and getting them on board, that is something I love that I don’t know that I’d get from [00:36:20] Endo. So I think there’s.

Payman Langroudi: More to it than that question, she said. By the time they get to me, behaviour [00:36:25] change has already been sorted. Is that not correct?

Payman Langroudi: We get a self-selecting [00:36:30] group of patients, but then we also get a group of patients who, um, [00:36:35] think they can throw money at a problem and don’t have to change their behaviour. Yeah. I mean, I’ve [00:36:40] treated people who high up in the Sunday Times rich list who just think they can just throw money [00:36:45] at me and make I’ll make everything go away. But their lifestyle is chaos. Mhm. Um. [00:36:50] It’s, you know, there is a huge amount of psychology and kid [00:36:55] ology, but you are right. We have as a, as a specialist, you, you’re, [00:37:00] you’re consult fee and even just travelling to see someone is a, is a [00:37:05] barrier. And so when a patient chooses to go over that obstacle, [00:37:10] you’ve already got a self-selecting patient. You’re already halfway there. So I don’t think that’s unreasonable. [00:37:15]

Payman Langroudi: And some periodontists then kind of move very seamlessly into [00:37:20] implants. You’re one of them, right?

Payman Langroudi: No, not oh well, I did, I dabbled. [00:37:25]

Payman Langroudi: Oh you didn’t really.

Payman Langroudi: Did not love it. Oh, really didn’t excite me as much as the perio excited [00:37:30] me. Um, why do you know? I don’t know, because the surgery [00:37:35] is is not dissimilar. Yeah. Um, I, I honestly, um, [00:37:40] Payman I can’t can’t put my finger on it, but I didn’t love it. I didn’t hate [00:37:45] it. Uh, but I did have to make a decision because again, and this has come up on a few [00:37:50] of the podcasts I’ve listened to of yours, you do have to go all in with that stuff. Yeah. The days [00:37:55] of dabbling in implants have gone, you know, placing a.

Payman Langroudi: Massive field now, [00:38:00] isn’t.

Payman Langroudi: It huge? It’s a speciality on its own. And everyone accepts that, even though it’s not a specialist list thing. Um, [00:38:05] we all know who the people who are fully invested in it are. Um, [00:38:10] and for me, there was a decision. Do I go all in and, or do I not? And [00:38:15] I worked in a, I work still in a practice now with a guy called Paul Swanson who big [00:38:20] implant placer. He was part of the FDP diploma and he just did it better than [00:38:25] me. They were. When I restored his implants, they restored them my own. My [00:38:30] hourly rate would drop when I did implant work because it wasn’t something I was doing all [00:38:35] the time. And my rate.

Payman Langroudi: Was. Is there something about, uh, the disposition [00:38:40] of an implant surgeon is more like an orthopaedic surgeon. Sort of. Get [00:38:45] in there. And the disposition of a surgeon is more like what? Like a vascular [00:38:50] surgeon. Like, what would you say?

Payman Langroudi: I think you know what I’m. I’m going to annoy [00:38:55] lots of my my my implant colleagues and friends because a lot of them are very plastic aware. [00:39:00] Um, but there is I mean, Paul wouldn’t wouldn’t criticise me for [00:39:05] saying it. Paul Swanson is all about the surgery, loves it, loves the the, the [00:39:10] stress that goes with it, the complex, the complexity of the cases and is happy to have [00:39:15] all of the restorative work done by somebody else. And and he’s, he’s in doing bits of plastics, [00:39:20] but other stuff he’ll send to me to do. Um, but [00:39:25] I think there is, there is definitely a cohort of almost orthopaedic style implant guys [00:39:30] with perio plastic skills without any shadow of a doubt.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, still not many women going [00:39:35] into Implantology.

Payman Langroudi: No, I do, I think the a D are doing well on that though. I think they [00:39:40] really are pushing it. You look at a few people over the last few years that we’ve had female ID presidents [00:39:45] and and I think they are very conscious of that and looking to support women [00:39:50] in Implantology. Again, that you ask yourself, why is it a testosterone [00:39:55] thing where it’s very male driven? Is it that because of that all or nothing nature [00:40:00] and family commitments, that it’s not something that people go into? I don’t know, but certainly [00:40:05] in the northwest we’ve got some very, very good. Shahzad Jeffreys, a superb Implantologist [00:40:10] who works in the northwest. She was mentored by Paul in our practice.

Payman Langroudi: I come across much more nowadays, [00:40:15] but still it’s it’s interesting.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a male dominated, male dominated. [00:40:20]

Payman Langroudi: Whereas Peri, I don’t think is or.

Payman Langroudi: No, I don’t think. I think historically dentistry was probably [00:40:25] male dominated, but that those days have been long gone. Yeah. Um and I think perio [00:40:30] probably yeah, we definitely, I can think about the, the cohort that’s just graduated from [00:40:35] King’s, I think in, in fact, I think they were all female. I think I may [00:40:40] be wrong in that, so I apologise if I’ve ostracised somebody. But yeah, the very [00:40:45] female heavy cohort. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to you a bit of [00:40:50] Peru.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: I know we were talking about, but but clinically I stopped practising years [00:40:55] ago, 2012, and I stopped learning about perio after [00:41:00] my house job. So years ago, what’s changed? I mean, the you [00:41:05] said you alluded to the more minimally invasive approach. Um, people [00:41:10] talk about things like laser perio, bony infill that [00:41:15] we used to think that was impossible before. Is it still a little, um, what’s, what’s, [00:41:20] what’s, what’s new other than classifications? Because you guys.

Payman Langroudi: We’re going to change [00:41:25] that next.

Payman Langroudi: Week. Like you guys like changing classification.

Payman Langroudi: Because we need something new. [00:41:30] Yeah. Um what’s changed. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you know, the mouth body connection [00:41:35] thing were you, are you guys fully onto that? Yeah. Because because it’s not taught very well in undergrad. [00:41:40]

Payman Langroudi: I think we’ve been on that for at least probably 20 years.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s not really taught very well in undergrad, is [00:41:45] it? In undergrad, you’ve got this patient in front of you who’s got gum disease. You don’t you got to take a medical history. [00:41:50] If there’s diabetes in there, you kind of think, well, maybe that’s affecting. It is affecting [00:41:55] things, but not really making a connection in undergrad. So in [00:42:00] postgrad.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s I think it’s the awareness is significantly better, I think. You know, we’ve got so many [00:42:05] consensus groups where you’ve got organisations like the BSP or the EFP [00:42:10] working with endocrinology and cardiology and producing consensus reports. I think I think [00:42:15] it’s better. And that will filter down much better than it did when you and I were at university, because it wasn’t really [00:42:20] a thing then. It was. And you know, it’s a cheesy sentence, [00:42:25] isn’t it? But for too long, dentistry and the mouth has been outside of medicine, [00:42:30] outside of the body. And it’s mental to think that they’re not connected. Um, [00:42:35] and we’ve, you know, we’ve known since you and I were undergrads about the diabetes link, but we’ve now [00:42:40] got all of the arthritis links the Alzheimer’s, cardiovascular, [00:42:45] kidney disease. Lots of associations and, you know, very [00:42:50] plausible linkages. So I think it’s important. I’ve got to be honest, I don’t [00:42:55] I don’t labour that with patients. I don’t like to scaremonger patients with that because I always just think you’re treating period [00:43:00] to save your teeth. And as an adjunctive benefit is that your systemic health will be better. [00:43:05] But I don’t I try not to sort of go down the floss or die route with my patients. [00:43:10]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I get it, I get it, but but but the notion that you’ve now suddenly got a period [00:43:15] of period breakdown, is there something going on systemically that [00:43:20] we don’t know about? Yeah. Like like a period referral to a GDP, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Gmp [00:43:25] that’s not happening. And the, the, I think the medical awareness is [00:43:30] bad. I think we as a profession are reasonably good at knowing about this stuff. I [00:43:35] had a, a diabetic specialist nurse referred to me for perio treatment, [00:43:40] and I didn’t know she was a diabetic specialist nurse. And we talked about the major risk factors [00:43:45] smoking, unstable diabetes, stress. Um, and she said diabetes. [00:43:50] What? What do you mean? No way. I was like, you’re. And then so when I told her, she was like, where [00:43:55] have you read that? And I said, I said, why are you asking that?

Payman Langroudi: She said recently, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: In the last, [00:44:00] uh, the other side of Christmas. And she said, where have you read that? I said, well, [00:44:05] we’ve known about it for 30, 40 years. We’ve got international consensus. [00:44:10] Why? I said, why are you asking that? She said, well, I’m a diabetic nurse. I’ve never heard of it. Wow. [00:44:15] That’s a massive problem.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an interesting thing. I mean, as a profession, we didn’t get through [00:44:20] to the public that the frequency of sugar. Yeah. It’s [00:44:25] interesting. We never got that through. But everyone knows sugar. Yeah, but no one knows that frequency [00:44:30] of sugar. Yeah. But this bit of information. My goodness me.

Payman Langroudi: It’s frightening.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:44:35] really it really bad. It is. It’s pretty bad.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, to be fair to people like Ian [00:44:40] Chappell, he’s written articles in editorials in The Lancet to try and make [00:44:45] people aware. We’ve had a few initiatives as part. I’m part of the British society. Um, [00:44:50] we’ve had a few initiatives where we try and push and. But you, [00:44:55] you know, your GP is so busy. Diabetes [00:45:00] is one disease that they have to look for. You can’t expect them to be on top of everything, especially what they [00:45:05] would see as maybe a, a nuanced small area. But we know it’s huge. We know, [00:45:10] you know, we know that if you stabilise perio, it’s the it’s the equivalent of the patient having one [00:45:15] additional drug. Wow. That’s the power of stabilising perio. So when you explain [00:45:20] that to a GP and they think, well, blimey, actually, you know, think about the cost impact on the health service [00:45:25] of that additional drug, not to mention the complexities of polypharmacy of multiple medications [00:45:30] just by switching off their perio inflammation. It’s like them having another [00:45:35] drug, not only, but you’ve also switched off other inflammation elsewhere. Um, we do [00:45:40] need to do a better job of educating other professions. Um, but we’re working on [00:45:45] it a bit slow. And like I say, they have other things that where everyone wants a slice of them and it’s [00:45:50] difficult. It’s difficult for a general dentist to stay on top of all aspects of everything. So the same [00:45:55] goes for our GPS, of course.

Payman Langroudi: What else? What else has changed? I mean, you must have had [00:46:00] in your career things come and go. I remember when I was a young dentist putting [00:46:05] putting little antibiotic. What was that called? Periochip.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Periochip. And putting dentomycin. [00:46:10] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Dentomycin. Yeah, I used to charge extra for that. It was like a, it was like a money maker for me. [00:46:15] I was like, oh, yeah, this makes a lot of sense. Um.

Payman Langroudi: That’s definitely changed.

Payman Langroudi: Stuff [00:46:20] is just stuff. Stuff comes along that claims to solve everything and then not much of it [00:46:25] does. I worry though, yeah, that let’s imagine I come up with a breakthrough. Yeah, [00:46:30] it’d be 30 years before I convinced Periodontists. [00:46:35] Because you guys are so fully like like like think that no, [00:46:40] it’s all the same problem and you’ve been lied to so many times, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, I think that’s [00:46:45] fair. I think, um, I mean, you ask what’s changed? Yeah. [00:46:50] The you just the example you gave of the local delivery systems [00:46:55] that went with the thinking at the time of how we understood the disease worked so late, late, [00:47:00] early, late 80s, early 90s, all the socransky stuff. Um, and so we were [00:47:05] almost treating it like an infection and the periopathogens. So that’s where all the antibiotics [00:47:10] came from. Um, and then we realised that actually not, that’s not quite specifically [00:47:15] how these things work. And so I think our treatments develop as we in [00:47:20] every medical speciality, as we understand more, we are definitely less chemically [00:47:25] driven than we used to be. Antibiotics, antiseptics.

Payman Langroudi: Is it not a role for systemic antibiotics. [00:47:30] In some situations.

Payman Langroudi: There is without any.

Payman Langroudi: Situation.

Payman Langroudi: Young patients with what you [00:47:35] and I would have called aggressive periodontitis. That is certainly an indication. There are some more [00:47:40] controversial indications. Um some people will advocate using them in [00:47:45] long standing non-responding chronic periodontitis. I’m using [00:47:50] old definitions now, but some people.

Payman Langroudi: Did it for me.

Payman Langroudi: I’m here for you, [00:47:55] Payman. Um, no, but we sort of. That’s quite controversial [00:48:00] whether you use them or not. Uh, I think certainly in general practice, the BSP have been very clear. If you’re thinking [00:48:05] of writing a prescription for a patient, you should really write a referral. They don’t want prescriptions [00:48:10] written for perio in general practice because it’s inappropriate. Those patients really need to be managed [00:48:15] at a specialist level. And a lot of the stuff that gets sent to me where it’s suspected they might [00:48:20] need something else, they just need treatment done, done better, or the patient needs to have their bar [00:48:25] raised a bit or there’s something being missed. So we we really do restrict [00:48:30] and limit them. But my I work in a practice where we’re so busy. I’ve got a couple of dentists [00:48:35] with special interests who work with me. So my we triage the patients. [00:48:40] I tend to see most of the youngsters. I tend to see most of the mucogingival, most [00:48:45] of the failing implant stuff. Um, and because my patient base is skewed towards that younger, [00:48:50] more aggressive style periodontitis, I will write prescriptions fairly frequently for [00:48:55] perio. But my my day list is not normal. Um, [00:49:00] so there’s a role, but yeah, it’s still very, very limited. And most people shouldn’t need them to be able to get on top of [00:49:05] their disease. Um, what has changed? Regenerative stuff [00:49:10] is getting more predictable. So growing bone back in vertical bone defects that we’re [00:49:15] still using a lot of the same materials, but how we use them has changed. Um, you know, your end [00:49:20] gains, your bio-oss and bio guides. I think we’re just, we’re more, more, um. [00:49:25]

Payman Langroudi: Refined.

Payman Langroudi: With slicker at using them. We know why things work and when to use which product, when. [00:49:30] Um, I think we’ve talked about plastics that is, that’s [00:49:35] just constantly evolving. And like you said, it’s getting better. You look at the Italians [00:49:40] and probably the Germans who just drive that that world.

Payman Langroudi: Is it driven by cosmetics?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:49:45] plastics very much. That is much less about health.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:49:50] not it’s not like is it predictable that you can reduce sensitivity with plastics or not? Is it not [00:49:55] predictable?

Payman Langroudi: I would hate to sell that as a primary outcome because if I if I do [00:50:00] a root coverage on, let’s say, a tooth that’s got eight millimetres of recession and [00:50:05] I cover seven millimetres of it, that’s a good outcome.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But if that one millimetre [00:50:10] has still got dentine hypersensitivity, I’ve failed. I would, I would never do that. I would never [00:50:15] sell it. And ultimately if your problem is sensitivity. Colgate Pro relief or [00:50:20] you know, some sort of desensitising toothpaste would be my go to. Um. A secondary [00:50:25] benefit of covering up roots is usually that you reduce sensitivity. But I’m always [00:50:30] I do hear people selling it. You’ve got to be so confident you are going to achieve 100%. And [00:50:35] whilst we’d like to think we are, like we’ve already said, soft tissue doesn’t [00:50:40] always do as it’s sold. So, uh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I think and when you’re referred [00:50:45] a patient by someone planning to do a big whatever it is, [00:50:50] whether it’s a restorative plan or an implant plan or whatever, that [00:50:55] people, patients don’t seem to sort of understand that the period [00:51:00] like, you know, people think how much is an implant? Yeah. And, and the nuance [00:51:05] of explaining to that patient, like, you know, the implant that looks like a tooth or an implant doesn’t look like a tooth. Is [00:51:10] that something that’s left to you by the referral? Oh, without a doubt. Is that one of your jobs?

Payman Langroudi: I think without a doubt. [00:51:15] And I think one of the hardest things, I think as a general dentist or hygienist therapist [00:51:20] is getting patients to understand why they need to go see the specialist. You know the common. I get asked all [00:51:25] the time. What do I say when a patient says, what are they going to do that you can’t do? Because they just think we’re [00:51:30] just, you know, going to do more of the same, but charge them more. Yeah. Um, sometimes we [00:51:35] are, sometimes we’re going to do more of the same, but do it better or do it differently or elevate the status of the patient. [00:51:40] But I think most of the time it is. But you’re so right. People will pay. People will [00:51:45] pay £900 for a specialist endo because it gets them out of pain. People [00:51:50] will pay £3,000 for an implant because the tooth is no longer there and they want something fixed, but [00:51:55] they’ve got a disease that isn’t painful and they don’t perceive there to be a problem. And why should [00:52:00] they pay a few thousand pounds to stabilise my perio? And there is the education phase [00:52:05] of that is huge. Um, I remember listening to again, Philip Green, [00:52:10] I’ve mentioned him already when he was BSP president quite a long time ago now. He [00:52:15] was asked the question, what would you do to make Peri make people take Perrier [00:52:20] more seriously. And his answer was, I’d make it painful. Yeah, because.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:52:25] a good point.

Payman Langroudi: If if if you know because because it’s inflammation. If Perry was painful, your [00:52:30] patients would be there knocking on the door going, get this sorted. The fact that it’s this silent disease, [00:52:35] they don’t know it’s happening until it’s too late. Um, is a problem. Um, and then, you [00:52:40] know, we’re having to educate them as to why they’ve got to do all this behaviour change, why they’ve got to change their lifestyle, [00:52:45] why we’ve got to do all these treatments. It is, uh, a sales pitch it, [00:52:50] but selling health ultimately. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:52:55] think that the difference between what would you say good periodontist, [00:53:00] great periodontist. What’s the difference?

Payman Langroudi: Um, I think [00:53:05] there’s probably two definitions. There’s there’s great hands and some people are just gifted. [00:53:10] Um, again I’ve mentioned Rob, although he’s not periodontist I would, [00:53:15] he’s got the skills of, of any of the best presidents in the, in the country, if not the world. Um. [00:53:20] I think communication, being able to, you know, [00:53:25] you know, yourself and one of our, one of the challenges of our job is, [00:53:30] is the management of the individual, the dentistry relatively simple, even the complex [00:53:35] stuff when you, when you’re doing it all the time, it’s relatively simple. It’s managing the patient who’s attached to that dentistry. [00:53:40] Um, and so I think communication is just everything because we’re [00:53:45] often sent patients who are quite late presenting and we’re often having to give [00:53:50] difficult news and then talk to them about difficult conversations about where they go next. And so [00:53:55] I would say, and I said it before, you’ve got to like people and you’ve got to be good with [00:54:00] people, and you’ve got to be able to work with all of those personality types. And I [00:54:05] think empathy, empathy, and dentistry full stop, is.

Payman Langroudi: Humanity of that moment, right? When you’re telling someone [00:54:10] he’s got to lose lots of teeth. Yeah, it’s an important point. It’s a funny man with [00:54:15] the enlightened. We talk about or ask people whether they want teeth whitening. [00:54:20] Yeah. And then a lot of them worry about that, right? They don’t want to embarrass their patient. They don’t want to [00:54:25] annoy them. And I tell them, look, do you know how embarrassing it is to be told [00:54:30] you’re not brushing your teeth properly? Yeah. Like by someone younger than you? Yeah. You know, if I, if I [00:54:35] was a I am a 50 year old guy and some 28 year old hygienist says you’re [00:54:40] not brushing your teeth properly. It’s massively embarrassing. Yeah. Massively embarrassing.

Payman Langroudi: It’s also a [00:54:45] barrier to behaviour change. What comes next?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That patient thinks that you think that they’re dirty. [00:54:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s huge.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s it’s such a we’re so in it that we don’t [00:54:55] see that. Right. But it’s a really important nuance.

Payman Langroudi: We talk about that a lot in our [00:55:00] courses. Yeah, we really do.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Because there’s a there’s a really good video [00:55:05] that was put out by the, um, European Federation of Periodontology a few years ago called The Sand [00:55:10] of Periodontitis. And they interviewed three patients. And in the first scene they [00:55:15] talk to a lady called Angela. Um, and they ask her how she felt about her diagnosis and she talked [00:55:20] about, um, she felt ashamed. She felt that she couldn’t talk about it to her friends. [00:55:25] She talks about, um, she could talk about her cancer diagnosis to her friends, but not her diagnosis [00:55:30] because she was embarrassed because it was her fault, because she was dirty. And I, we [00:55:35] play that on every single course that I run to remind people, because we do get into a conveyor [00:55:40] belt of another patient, another disease, another patient, just it’s it’s all day, every day. [00:55:45] Just we’re used to just dealing with this stuff and we process people in and out. And I say to [00:55:50] my delegates, when you diagnose perio, patients are going to have a. Some patients are going [00:55:55] to have a bit of a moment. They’re going to think that you think they’re dirty, they’re going to have a shameful, God, this [00:56:00] is all my fault. And you have to remember that human side of this disease. It’s a [00:56:05] bit different to you’ve got a hole that needs filling. Perio has a bit of stigma attached to it. [00:56:10] And while sometimes that stigma is appropriate because a lot of the time there is lifestyle and [00:56:15] behaviour. There’s also all the other stuff that goes with it, you know, genetics and stress [00:56:20] and, you know, medical conditions. It’s not as simple as you’ve not cleaned your teeth properly. And we have to just, [00:56:25] we have to work with patients to make them understand that and downregulate that shame. It’s really important. [00:56:30] I mean, really important.

Payman Langroudi: One thing that comes to mind is you must be at [00:56:35] the stage you’re at, you must be in touch with the manufacturers, right? The toothpaste [00:56:40] manufacturers, the toothbrush manufacturers, some of the biggest companies in the world. Yeah. [00:56:45] I mean, you know, we think of our biggest companies in dentistry might be align [00:56:50] and Henry Schein, but Colgate and GSK.

Payman Langroudi: And. [00:56:55]

Payman Langroudi: Oral-b, they are ten times the size of of those companies. [00:57:00] So those massive budgets and on our screens all the time, there must be an element [00:57:05] of education that needs to happen from them. And it’s a weird thing. Yeah. Because [00:57:10] you know, the guy selling this microphone isn’t. We’re not asking him to educate anyone. Yeah. You know, you might do [00:57:15] if you’re into it, you might say, oh, conversations are important or whatever, but are you I [00:57:20] mean, you’re in touch with these guys, right? You must be.

Payman Langroudi: Do you personally, I work with some [00:57:25] of them in terms of lectures, lecture opportunities. Um, and I think through, through some [00:57:30] of the work I do with the BSP, we work with some of these organisations. Um, I [00:57:35] think, I think we’d like to think that they could do [00:57:40] a bit more. I think some of the companies, what you don’t always see behind the scenes, um, certainly [00:57:45] people like GSK, Haleon. Um. Johnson [00:57:50] and Johnson, they, they support the BSP with sort of like non restricted [00:57:55] grants. So they don’t, they don’t get anything back, but they support the work that we do and the promotion. So that [00:58:00] is a good thing. But they’re relying on us to do the physical promotion there. I think I would love to see [00:58:05] some of these companies do more publicly because you’re [00:58:10] right. You know, the the BSP or Ian Dunn is never going to put an advert in between Coronation [00:58:15] Street and the adverts because it’s just too big a campaign.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, from their perspective, I say, well, [00:58:20] you know, we’re paying millions for those ads, so screw you.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s a missed opportunity.

Payman Langroudi: My [00:58:25] friend was playing golf with the CEO of Colgate okay, in the US. And [00:58:30] um, you know what he said? He said um Colgate is in more households [00:58:35] than any other product in the world.

Payman Langroudi: I can believe that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So something like 65% [00:58:40] of all global households have Colgate Palmolive product [00:58:45] in them. And the way he, he was talking to him was, well, you know, like [00:58:50] almost like in a conservative way, they’ve won. So they just want to keep everything the same. Yeah, [00:58:55] yeah, I get that, I get that. But but, you know, if you’ve got access to 65% [00:59:00] of households in the world.

Payman Langroudi: You’d like to think there. [00:59:05]

Payman Langroudi: Should be a.

Payman Langroudi: Big corporate responsibility.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right.

Payman Langroudi: That’s sort of what you’re asking me. Yeah. And [00:59:10] I would like to think that that there was a bit more of that. I think at the end of the day, a [00:59:15] lot of the especially I mean, you’ve mentioned sort of the toothpaste mouthwashes. That’s almost farmer type [00:59:20] stuff. Yeah. And they are in sales. And we have to remember that, don’t we? Yeah. But I do think [00:59:25] I do think they could do more. Um, there’s no two ways about it. I’d love to see them take [00:59:30] a slightly more bigger picture view because I don’t think they’d sell any less product.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly. [00:59:35] And the other thing is, I used to think when I used to think about this when I was younger, I used [00:59:40] to think, well, the end of the day it’s just teeth. But then when even today, [00:59:45] today, right now, the biggest cause of GA in children is teeth. It’s [00:59:50] amazing. 2026. That’s the case.

Payman Langroudi: Alder hey and Liverpool spend £1 [00:59:55] million a year on paediatric GA extractions. £1 million [01:00:00] a year.

Payman Langroudi: I thought it’d be more than that.

Payman Langroudi: It’s devastating. That’s probably an eight year old figure.

Payman Langroudi: Actually, it’s probably [01:00:05] more. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And they probably could do it. They probably just can’t get through anymore. Um. It’s huge. [01:00:10] And that’s just one city. You know, that’s going to be that’s going to you multiply that by, you know, your [01:00:15] Manchester’s your Birmingham’s. They’ve all got bigger populations.

Payman Langroudi: In a preventable disease. That’s that’s the key point. Right. [01:00:20]

Payman Langroudi: Key point.

Payman Langroudi: Um what grinds your gears about [01:00:25] dentistry. The market. Let’s let’s let’s start [01:00:30] let’s start before you worry yourself about. No, no. Let’s start with with relation to [01:00:35] in relation to perio. Like what do most generalists not know about perio that they really [01:00:40] should.

Payman Langroudi: I wouldn’t say it’s that they’re not know I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Well not acting [01:00:45] whatever.

Payman Langroudi: What people don’t remember is actually the power [01:00:50] that the patient has to control the disease. I think we’re so ingrained as [01:00:55] a profession that our only value is perceived when we’re physically doing something to the patient.

Payman Langroudi: Treatment. [01:01:00]

Payman Langroudi: I’m either diagnosing or I’m scaling, or I’m drilling or I’m extracting. And when you’re doing [01:01:05] something, that’s my value and I can charge you for that. And I think we forget and [01:01:10] the the S3 period guidelines that came out a few years ago have changed the way we’re [01:01:15] trying to get people to think about this, telling the patient, do more, but physically, properly [01:01:20] sitting with them and educating them on oral hygiene and not just paying lip [01:01:25] service that can produce similar clinical outcomes to you or I do in a clinical [01:01:30] intervention. And if patients, if you’re working in an environment where patients can’t afford expensive care, [01:01:35] educating them to help themselves is the bit that we fail on. We really [01:01:40] do fail on that. Um, I also see with some dentists, [01:01:45] some of my referrers, they don’t always believe in perio that it [01:01:50] actually works. Now, if you believe that, then you’re right, it won’t work. But [01:01:55] I’ve had I had a referral from me a couple of weeks ago, and it was a strange phone call because [01:02:00] he said, I just needed to ring you to see What was it you did that achieved such an amazing result? And [01:02:05] I couldn’t remember the patient. So I had to go open the computer up and have a look and and all [01:02:10] we’d done was we’d actually treated the case from start to finish. Non-surgically. But the case [01:02:15] was a disaster when he walked in.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, is that you physically.

Payman Langroudi: That [01:02:20] depends on the patient. So we I have some great hygienists that I work with. So I, [01:02:25] we do a lot of, um, we give a lot of that to the hygiene team. There [01:02:30] are certain patients when I’m treating youngsters with aggressive disease and I’m prescribing antibiotics, [01:02:35] I will often do that myself. Um we have some patients who will say, you know, I’ve seen a hygienist [01:02:40] before in other practice, I want to see you. Um, and I explain that it will be more cost [01:02:45] effective and equally just as good if they see one of our hygiene team and some people say, no, no, I’m here [01:02:50] now. You’re the guy who I’m putting my trust in. And so they, they pay for me to do that work. And I [01:02:55] don’t I don’t dislike that work. It was interesting. I listen to Payman and she said [01:03:00] she couldn’t wait to get rid of that and just wants to do surgery. But but I also think that also comes with that stage [01:03:05] of career where, you know, I’ve trained to be special. So I want to do special stuff all the time. [01:03:10] I really don’t mind doing the scope of practice that is required for the patient that’s in front of [01:03:15] me.

Payman Langroudi: But the value add of you doing it with the hygienist. Do you think it’s anatomy? [01:03:20] Like literally that’s what it is. You’re literally kind of more aware of [01:03:25] what needs.

Payman Langroudi: I think in terms of non surgical outcomes, the. [01:03:30] There’s two hygienists in our team that do a lot of my work for me because I work [01:03:35] in a mixed practice. As in I say mixed. It’s all private, but it’s general and specialist. So um, [01:03:40] we have quite a big team, 17 surgeries. It’s a beast of a practice. Beast of a. [01:03:45]

Payman Langroudi: What’s that called?

Payman Langroudi: Uh, Rose Lane dental practice. Uh where’s.

Payman Langroudi: That.

Payman Langroudi: Liverpool. Liverpool. South. [01:03:50] Liverpool.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Payman Langroudi: South towards down the airport end. Yeah. Um. Now I know [01:03:55] that if Helen or Yvonne do a case for me that they’ll get the same outcomes [01:04:00] because they think like I do. They treat the same same treatment philosophy. They will. So they’ll get [01:04:05] great outcomes as well. Um, some patients just yeah, the added value [01:04:10] of I’m a bit greyer, I’m a bit older. I’ve got that badge that says I’m a specialist. [01:04:15] I’m charging a bit more for that. Does add value to some patients. Yeah. Um, but [01:04:20] yeah, I don’t mind doing those bits myself, but I think going back to the question you were saying, [01:04:25] we seem to have this thing where our only value is when we physically do something. And [01:04:30] actually in perio and also, I mean, if you boil it down to everything, the prevention [01:04:35] in all dentistry comes down to communication, but we’re not getting paid to do it. So we don’t do it. Um, [01:04:40] that grinds my gears, I suppose a bit because that was the, you know, I [01:04:45] think we could, we could achieve so much more for so less input if [01:04:50] we really did have a true preventative model. Um, it’s one of the [01:04:55] things in dentistry that grind grammar.

Payman Langroudi: School and tell me a few others. You alluded to the social media [01:05:00] thing.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t mind social media. We’ve got to accept it’s it’s a, it’s a, it’s a, a [01:05:05] modern beast. It’s how people communicate. I’ve got grown up. I’ve got my, my youngest daughter’s [01:05:10] 19 at the weekend, my eldest, 23. So they’re, they’re in that world. And that’s how they live their lives. So [01:05:15] I understand how we have to operate in there. Um, and I think [01:05:20] social media has been brilliant from a resource point of view for us being connected. Yeah. Uh, [01:05:25] I also think that drives, um, anxiety amongst the profession. They [01:05:30] sort of the, the comparison envy that people think, oh, I’m not, I’m not successful because I’m not, [01:05:35] you know, not that person. I’ve not done that. So I think that, that annoys me because I don’t think a lot of that is real. [01:05:40] Um, I think some of the stuff that I see on social media, you [01:05:45] know, if my principal said to me, look, we’re going to do a TikTok video or we’re going to do some [01:05:50] crazy dancing reception, I’m gone. I’m out of that practice. I’m leaving because [01:05:55] that’s just not for me. Um, and that I just think sometimes is a bit demeaning, but equally, I understand [01:06:00] that that’s the market that some people are appealing to, and that’s not going to be so that what I said [01:06:05] that grinds my gears. Probably not. I just scroll past it and let it wash over me. Um, I [01:06:10] would, you know, I genuinely would love to see CPD better [01:06:15] regulated than it is. Um, I feel like when we qualified, [01:06:20] you would look around the country and you, you knew who the good guys were, you knew who. [01:06:25]

Payman Langroudi: Now there’s so much of it.

Payman Langroudi: There’s just volume. And I’m not convinced [01:06:30] that all of that volume is as good as it could be. Um, you know, I really enjoyed listening to Nick Sethi’s [01:06:35] podcast the other week and what the work that they do. I know Nick through tubules, great [01:06:40] guy, uh, good mates with Riaz. We worked at Liverpool in the hospital together. You know, there [01:06:45] are people who are doing great stuff. I’m down here teaching with monarch for tomorrow, people who are [01:06:50] doing high level really well. Cpd type stuff, but then [01:06:55] I just see some people who just churning out quick fix short but but [01:07:00] dressed up diplomas and I sort of wonder just how much can you learn [01:07:05] in that short space of time? I’ve got no problem with short courses, but don’t dress it up as [01:07:10] anything more than a short course. It’s, you know, a five day course is not a diploma. Um, [01:07:15] and I think the.

Payman Langroudi: Diploma kind of is whatever you want to call it, right. It’s a funny thing. [01:07:20] I think it.

Payman Langroudi: Is.

Payman Langroudi: Nowadays. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I think there was a time though, you know, when a certificate was [01:07:25] a year course, a diploma was a two year course. Masters was a third year course.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right, that’s right.

Payman Langroudi: And I think so. [01:07:30] It means very different things to different generations. Um and I do [01:07:35] worry that.

Payman Langroudi: But what else? What else should go on. I’ll tell you some of mine. [01:07:40] Um, I don’t like, uh, people who call themselves [01:07:45] professor when, when they’re not, when they’re not professor. I don’t like that. Um, [01:07:50] Because it’s a funny thing. It’s a it’s a foreign university thing. Often, [01:07:55] I think like if you’re, if you’re teaching a university in France, Italy, Spain, or [01:08:00] many places, America, all teachers in university are called. Professor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:08:05] But here it’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Associate professor.

Payman Langroudi: The top guy in the department. So [01:08:10] to use it here just seems so, so disingenuous. Yeah. I think that’s that’s not, not [01:08:15] unreasonable.

Payman Langroudi: Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about awards? I bet you don’t like awards. Do you like awards? [01:08:20]

Payman Langroudi: No, I really don’t like awards.

Payman Langroudi: Go on, go on, go on. Articulate what you don’t like. Because the younger [01:08:25] generation can’t even understand it. And I have to. I have to get them to to tell me what they think [01:08:30] it is. What is it for you? The crux of awards that you don’t like?

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:08:35] I don’t like the idea that, you know, there can be 7 or 8 best young dentists [01:08:40] this and 12 best old dentists that. And because even [01:08:45] though I’m good at what I do, I’m, I am I the best? How do you measure that [01:08:50] best? And does that best give you an advantage? When do you deserve that advantage? [01:08:55] I just I find that sort of I find it all a little bit crass, not professional.

Payman Langroudi: Right back to [01:09:00] that.

Payman Langroudi: It goes back to professionalism.

Payman Langroudi: Professionalism.

Payman Langroudi: That also goes back to me being old. If I’m being, you know, and [01:09:05] just probably, you know, grey old grumpy, um, it’s [01:09:10] just not what we did. And I just find it all.

Payman Langroudi: At the, at [01:09:15] the same time. Do you recognise what I’m saying about like Ken? Ken Finley is a good, good [01:09:20] friend of mine and I remember when they started, it was them, it was, it was FMC that [01:09:25] really pushed all of this awards, uh, top 50 at the time [01:09:30] you had the BJ that wasn’t you weren’t allowed to put a photograph or do you [01:09:35] remember you couldn’t even put any image in a BJ article? Maybe a graph. [01:09:40] Yeah, but nothing else. That’s where we were at. And Ken comes along and [01:09:45] says, well, let me do the sun And it was a good thing, you know, like it opened [01:09:50] up.

Payman Langroudi: We couldn’t advertise, could we? When we first.

Payman Langroudi: Arrived.

Payman Langroudi: We couldn’t advertise. And then that changed. And that was [01:09:55] the beginning of this opening up of, you know, the marketing and everything that we’ve now got. Um, [01:10:00] I’ve got to be honest, I don’t, I don’t, I would never think less [01:10:05] of somebody who does the awards. And I know people who are part of that industry. And [01:10:10] if you’re going to enter the awards, you are practising to a very high standard because [01:10:15] you have to to be.

Payman Langroudi: Approved to do it.

Payman Langroudi: And you’ve photographed your work, you’ve shown good [01:10:20] thinking. So, you know, there was elements of that. I think my validation [01:10:25] would come from other places. So you just listen to Nick talk and you [01:10:30] talk about Bard, you know, and you’ve got like Bard accreditation. And you know, if you, [01:10:35] if you’re accredited by Bard, you know, your stuff, you are the bee’s [01:10:40] knees, you know, and even the best people who are going through that process will be stood there [01:10:45] nervous at the front. You know, it doesn’t matter whether you’re Finley Sutton or whether you’re you know, you’re going to be [01:10:50] grilled.

Payman Langroudi: By everyone on it.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re going to be. And and you’ll know your stuff and you’re [01:10:55] going, I’m going to get through this. But that to me is sort of. That’s the sort of validation [01:11:00] I would seek or I want someone to say to, you know, that, you know, someone I respect, like, [01:11:05] I don’t know, like an academic like Ian Chappell or somebody go, yeah, that Ian Dunn’s a good guy. That’s sort [01:11:10] of what I that that to me would be better than any piece of plastic that is voted, you know, that I’ve entered and [01:11:15] been, you know, um, do I think less of people for doing that? No, not at all. I [01:11:20] think if you abuse that and, you know, and actually start to believe that you are [01:11:25] better, that’s probably a bit of an issue.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, people use it in their marketing, don’t they? So do you find [01:11:30] that distasteful?

Payman Langroudi: Not necessarily distasteful. I think if you’ve done it, it’s like I say, it [01:11:35] shows a commitment to, to, to a high standard because [01:11:40] I’ve yet to see any of those winning cases where I thought, God, that’s rubbish that you are. [01:11:45] You are working at a high level if you’ve won those awards.

Payman Langroudi: So I guess the funny thing, I’m no longer in [01:11:50] it, right? So it doesn’t bother me at all. But I can imagine if [01:11:55] I was working in Liverpool and some dude won [01:12:00] Best Dentist Liverpool. Yeah. And if I was really good at dentistry, by the way, if I was really good at dentistry [01:12:05] and some dude wins best dentist Liverpool and I’ve not even applied, [01:12:10] I can imagine how that might grind my gears. Yeah, I can see it. I can see it. [01:12:15]

Payman Langroudi: I work with, um, I work with a specialist prosthodontist guy called Steve Barber, one [01:12:20] of the best dentists I’ve ever worked with. I mean, his work is just second to none. You’ve never [01:12:25] heard of him because he’s so under the radar. Um, and I see people [01:12:30] winning awards locally and, and yeah, that works okay. It’s good. It’s not as good as Steve’s. It’s [01:12:35] just, you know. And do I feel sorry for him? No, because he’s busy. People who [01:12:40] refer to him know he’s great. There was a time. There was definitely a time. [01:12:45] And you’ll have seen me on social media do it where I was like I was. I felt like the police. I wanted to [01:12:50] argue with everyone. And you’re wrong.

Payman Langroudi: The Facebook.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, social media platforms. [01:12:55] And, you know, and I’m at the point now where I sort of think I can only treat who’s in front [01:13:00] of me. I can only teach who turns up to my courses and I can’t control anything [01:13:05] else. And so why should I bother? And maybe I’m maturing. Maybe I’m getting [01:13:10] more laid back. But you know, I chat to people like you. He’s a good friend of yours, Drew Shah. [01:13:15] I know Drew’s not a fan of that sort of that sort of. Oh, he hates it with [01:13:20] a passion. I think him and I are equally paralleled in grumpiness when it comes to [01:13:25] comes to those things. So um, but yeah, we see we. It [01:13:30] goes back to that comparison envy and the comparison. That same [01:13:35] comparison is a thief of joy. One of my favourite expressions. And I see people who I [01:13:40] mentioned before, people who come and spend days with me and they’re saying to me, you know, I’m [01:13:45] looking after my patients and I care, and I spend too much time on this, and I’m not earning very much money that and [01:13:50] I’m not winning awards and I’m not driving a Ferrari and I’m and I’m saying, yeah, but you’ve just [01:13:55] told me that you’re looking after your patients and you’re doing good work and you’re only three years qualified, relaxed, [01:14:00] just relax. You’re doing all the right things. All that will come if you keep [01:14:05] doing the right thing. I suppose that side of the awards and that I’m [01:14:10] not there and I’m, I’m not successful until I’m that I think people [01:14:15] need to look at how they measure success because success could be you could be going work in community [01:14:20] dentistry on a salary. And you could be treating all that special care type patient group [01:14:25] that that success, if that’s what you love and you’re doing a great service, don’t [01:14:30] measure success in bank balances or cars or, you know, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Success [01:14:35] could be working two days a week and taking the kids to school the other three days, you know, like. [01:14:40]

Payman Langroudi: Spending.

Payman Langroudi: Your life, that’s what.

Payman Langroudi: You’re walking the hills in the Lake District and, you know, having to schlep into work and [01:14:45] do those two days so you can have the five days off. You’ve got to measure, you’ve got to decide what success looks like [01:14:50] for you and not measure it by other people’s yardsticks. It’s, um.

Payman Langroudi: All [01:14:55] that said, you’re one of the more kind of famous guys [01:15:00] about between between generalists. [01:15:05] Right?

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: General dentists up north, who can we think of? Who are the guys? [01:15:10] You. I mean, maybe it’s because of teaching. Yeah. Yeah, it probably is because of.

Payman Langroudi: Teaching probably.

Payman Langroudi: Is. Um, and [01:15:15] if you’re going to be a teacher, you’re going to have to tell your story and people need to come and come and come on your course [01:15:20] and all of that. Yeah. Um, do you find that your, it doesn’t come naturally to you [01:15:25] sort of self promotion and whatever it takes to fill these courses, what does it take to fill these [01:15:30] courses? I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s got really difficult. The last few years has become increasingly difficult. [01:15:35] Yeah. I think as as undergraduates, I was chatting to a couple of foundation the other [01:15:40] day and they were saying how many of their lectures were delivered via video, pre-recorded on [01:15:45] demand. So they’re not even understanding the value of face to face teaching at their undergraduate [01:15:50] level. So trying to get them to come on courses and part with money is, is increasingly [01:15:55] difficult. Um, I do find self promotion difficult. I, [01:16:00] my, my former self promotion is just being out there and being available to people. I, [01:16:05] I’ve been on the train coming down here today. I’ve answered five Facebook private messages from people [01:16:10] who don’t know me and I’ve never met them before, not even been on my courses. Hi. Can I ask you a [01:16:15] question? And my answer is always yes. I’ll answer that question when I get a minute. I’ll answer it. And [01:16:20] I always put myself out there on social media platforms as someone who’s knowledgeable and approachable. That’s [01:16:25] my promotion. But I’m not going to stand there going, I’m the biggest. I’m the best, maybe to my detriment. [01:16:30] Um.

Payman Langroudi: One thing I really like about your content or Intensol was um, [01:16:35] the way you the, the way you talk about hygienists [01:16:40] and therapists as a, as equals. Um, and [01:16:45] that’s, I think it’s such an important thing. Yeah. Because, you know, Perry is a team sport. [01:16:50] Yeah. And dentistry’s a team sport.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And too many practices [01:16:55] have too much hierarchy going through them.

Payman Langroudi: The profession has too much hierarchy going through it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:17:00] But practices.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right. You know, you’re right.

Payman Langroudi: The thing about practice is, you know, there’s a king of that castle and [01:17:05] then too many the stories you hear from hygienists. Yeah. Because [01:17:10] they’re only like one day here, one day there, they’re not treated as staff members. And I [01:17:15] just remember your the way you write about hygienists and therapists. Yeah. [01:17:20] It’s with a sort of respect that you don’t often see.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:17:25] there’s multiple streams to that though, because, well, I want to believe it, you [01:17:30] know, and there are good dentists and bad dentist. There are good hygienists and bad hygienists and therapists [01:17:35] and you. So and I’ve been lucky enough to work with some great hygienists, um, who’ve [01:17:40] made me look very good. Um, let’s be honest. You they’ve made me [01:17:45] look very, very good. Um, so some patients will come in, see me for a consult, go to one [01:17:50] of the hygiene team, come back to me and I discharge them because they’re fixed and I get [01:17:55] all the glory and they’ve done all the hard work. So it would [01:18:00] be disingenuous of me not to acknowledge that and also not to stand up for that. [01:18:05] Um, you have to look at, you know, most let’s, let’s [01:18:10] just say the, I don’t know whether what’s true about this, but let’s say the average size of practices for [01:18:15] surgeries, let’s say there’ll be three dentist surgeries and one hygienist surgery. And then if [01:18:20] you go to the staff room, the dentist won’t be in there half the time. And the dentists are all together having their butties, [01:18:25] and then the nurses will all be in the staff room and the hygienist is in this no man’s.

Payman Langroudi: Land isolated role. [01:18:30]

Payman Langroudi: Really isolated and that’s where their organisations are really helpful. The best. And [01:18:35] BADT to to give them that that outlet. Um but I think, [01:18:40] you know, with I don’t know whether, you know, I, I’m admin, one of the biggest hygienists and [01:18:45] therapist forums on Facebook for the UK. Um, and it’s just [01:18:50] a release valve for them to know.

Payman Langroudi: What I’m reading the stories.

Payman Langroudi: They’re not that their [01:18:55] experiences are not unique and it’s a bit like dentists for dentists for us, you know, that it’s [01:19:00] somewhere where you can go and speak and know that there’s going to be support, know that you’re not alone. And [01:19:05] so for me, you know, I’ve been very lucky now to get myself into a position where, [01:19:10] as you say, people know who I am. And through my work with the BSP and the [01:19:15] teaching and all the different things, I sort of owe it to them to support them because [01:19:20] that, yeah, there are a lot of Periodontists one, two [01:19:25] dentists don’t want to do perio per se. So three give it to the people who do want [01:19:30] to do it and are pretty good at it. And don’t don’t treat them as a second class citizen. [01:19:35] Um.

Payman Langroudi: Not to mention the way it’s looking. Therapists are going to be a major part of the future. [01:19:40]

Payman Langroudi: Huge. I listened to Amber Alpin’s podcast. Amazing, [01:19:45] brilliant. What a great setup.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: And there’s loads of them in the northwest. We’ve got a handful [01:19:50] of hygiene and therapy owned and LED practices. And why [01:19:55] not? They’re making a great go of it. They’re doing great work. There’s a lady on the [01:20:00] Wirral, Jules Fisher, who runs at the Hygienist Only Centre and is [01:20:05] one of my best referrers. You know, she she takes patients as far as they can and then she knows when to [01:20:10] pass them on. And it’s a great model and the patients get great care. Yeah. Um, we [01:20:15] just, we’ve got to get rid of this protectionism element because there’s, we’re not going to run [01:20:20] out of work.

Payman Langroudi: One of the biggest uses is owned by a nurse ex nurse. [01:20:25] Okay. Um I want to get on to Liverpool because it’s such an [01:20:30] interesting town. Um, again, enlightened biggest users have always [01:20:35] come from Liverpool. From the beginning.

Payman Langroudi: I was going to say Liverpool or Kent, I would have thought would be your two big. [01:20:40]

Payman Langroudi: Well no. Essex. You’re thinking. Sorry but no, it’s more Liverpool or Newcastle, more North northwest [01:20:45] or northeast. Newcastle. Sunderland?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The people up there just want white teeth, man. Yeah [01:20:50] yeah yeah. Um but Liverpool as a town, I’ve been going there for years now [01:20:55] and what a change. Yeah. The people are amazing. [01:21:00] Everyone’s a comedian and, and funny and [01:21:05] just, just, just like real salt of the earth. I always think of Liverpool Manchester [01:21:10] as like complete opposites in so much as in Manchester. Everyone looks quite polished. Okay, but you’re not [01:21:15] sure what to think about it. But in Liverpool they’re quite raw. But everyone’s cool. Everyone’s [01:21:20] everyone’s just like, uh, worth talking to. Um, but the change in [01:21:25] that town.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s huge. But you know what? That really makes me feel quite proud that [01:21:30] you’ve just said that. I hear it all the time.

Payman Langroudi: Love that.

Payman Langroudi: City. And there is such a stereotype about [01:21:35] Liverpool that that once people have been, they realise that it’s not what it was, I think. You know, you [01:21:40] mentioned when my dad and the police and Toxteth riots, there is such a stigma and Harry Enfield and the [01:21:45] Scousers and all that, you know, shell suits and trackies and calmed down and all that stuff. There is that stereotype. [01:21:50] Um, Liverpool has had its difficult times. You know, the 80s, [01:21:55] even into the early noughties when I went when I left Liverpool to go to university, Liverpool had [01:22:00] big problems. Um 2008 we got all that capital of culture money [01:22:05] and it absolutely transformed the city. I mean, I was back [01:22:10] living there at the time. I was living in the docks, um, in sort of warehouse living type [01:22:15] stuff. And it was just a great time. But that, that the city transformed and it is [01:22:20] an absolutely fantastic city to live in. And like every city, it’s got issues and [01:22:25] it’s got idiots. But the majority are, like you said, up for a laugh.

Payman Langroudi: The people [01:22:30] are so unique.

Payman Langroudi: Man cannot wait to chat to you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I ran a course last week. Uh, [01:22:35] we had 16 hygienists therapists come over for a two day course. Um, [01:22:40] from all over the country and the WhatsApp group the night before, because they were all coming in on the Wednesday night. We were teaching [01:22:45] Thursday and Friday was, oh my God, Liverpool is so friendly. I’ve had so many random conversations. [01:22:50] And my teaching colleague Helen Maria teaching us, we were just texting each other going [01:22:55] makes me feel quite proud about that. It’s good. Yeah, I am born and bred in Liverpool. I’ve [01:23:00] escaped for a bit and moved back and uh, it’s it’s a great place to be.

Payman Langroudi: Great restaurants, [01:23:05] great shopping that Liverpool won the Duke of Westminster project. Yeah, yeah. Liverpool [01:23:10] won like I find really good places there.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Good culture. We’ve got multiple theatres, [01:23:15] comedy scene, live music.

Payman Langroudi: What I love is that kind of city that’s [01:23:20] big enough that you can go and find yourself a Wagyu steak if you really want one, but small enough [01:23:25] that everyone kind of knows each other kind of bumping into each other. And then with Liverpool [01:23:30] as well, like, you know, it was at one point it was one of the richest cities in Britain, the richest city in Britain. [01:23:35] At one point when the slave trade. Yeah, I’m not sure. I’m not sure.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, it was [01:23:40] built on that.

Payman Langroudi: But those, those massive buildings, not not just the warehouse, the [01:23:45] massive bank like buildings, you know, they’re really special. You don’t get [01:23:50] that in many places.

Payman Langroudi: But we’ve got more royal liver.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Craziness.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve got more grade [01:23:55] two listed buildings than any other city outside of London.

Payman Langroudi: Is that right?

Payman Langroudi: Because it was bombed in [01:24:00] the war.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Too far.

Payman Langroudi: So I think it wasn’t deemed to be strategically important. So the architecture [01:24:05] is phenomenal. And if you if you walk around with your head up and look around. Yeah. [01:24:10] You’re right. It’s, uh, it’s, it’s architecturally beautiful in [01:24:15] parts. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to the darker part of the pod.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about [01:24:20] mistakes. Clinical errors that you’ve made that the rest [01:24:25] of us can learn from.

Payman Langroudi: Um. I [01:24:30] can think, well, maybe whether other people can learn from it, I don’t know. But [01:24:35] arrogant sort of the arrogance of youth. You know, I was, I was doing [01:24:40] my perio surgery stuff and I was generally pretty good at it. And I had a patient [01:24:45] who was referred, I mean, just this, just the horror. It’s more of a is it a mistake? It was a bad [01:24:50] clinical outcome. She came to me with an an upper right central incisor that was root filled [01:24:55] and dark with a little bit of recession on it. And I was asked to cover the root up and also thicken [01:25:00] the tissue so the dark root didn’t show through. Done it a few times, multiple times before at this [01:25:05] point. Um, yeah. No problem. Uh, but the tooth was root filled. It was a protected there was [01:25:10] scar tissue. The surgery was a complete nightmare. I got really good coverage that it [01:25:15] seemed to go okay, but it was difficult. Um, she got really bad healing. She got, [01:25:20] she went from having two meals, a recession to six mils of recession. I’d caused it. My, [01:25:25] my, my healing response was horrendous. Um, she’d gone through two [01:25:30] and a half years of ortho, by the way, to get to that point. And I was the, I was the penultimate bit [01:25:35] before they replaced the crown on this tooth. Um, that was pretty bad. Uh, [01:25:40] what.

Payman Langroudi: Happened?

Payman Langroudi: I just had to, I, I had to own it and I just had to, I redid [01:25:45] it. Um, I can’t say I did anything massively differently and we got a really good outcome the second [01:25:50] time. Um, but it was you then working with the patients who is [01:25:55] doubting you and yeah, there’s a trust issue now. And actually she’s gone from a two mil [01:26:00] recession to a six mil recession on a tooth that is dark. Um, it was a difficult, [01:26:05] difficult period.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the learning outcome from that?

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:26:10] what was.

Payman Langroudi: There was an error. What was the era? Was it a communication error? I mean, I suppose.

Payman Langroudi: You did ask [01:26:15] me about it. Could I say there was an error? Maybe.

Payman Langroudi: You said. You said you wouldn’t have done it any differently.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t think I would have [01:26:20] done it any differently. So maybe it wasn’t. Or maybe it was just like we said that sometimes you just don’t get the healing you want. Not [01:26:25] all soft tissue.

Payman Langroudi: Is consent error.

Payman Langroudi: I think thankfully we consent for all sorts [01:26:30] of problems.

Payman Langroudi: Did you tell them that that could have happened? Yeah, possibly.

Payman Langroudi: Graphs can fail. Things can heal [01:26:35] unfavourably. So yeah, I think we always have thorough conversations. So whether that was a dark [01:26:40] time, it was a stressful time because of the I mean, the other thing I would say that.

Payman Langroudi: The patient [01:26:45] didn’t do anything right.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t know patient trusted me. We we’re she [01:26:50] has to wait 3 to 4 months for that site to mature before we can go back in. Walking [01:26:55] around with a front tooth that’s like now got more recession. She was, with [01:27:00] hindsight, incredibly tolerant. Um, and the one thing I would always [01:27:05] say to people, if you’ve got a problem, just own it, be all over it and, you know, smother the patient in [01:27:10] kindness and, um, don’t try and quick fix, don’t try and distance yourself. Don’t you know? [01:27:15] Um, I think the only time to say distance. The only time if you if you can’t [01:27:20] fix it, if you’re not the guy, make sure that they end up in front of the guy or the girl who can [01:27:25] fix it. You know, do whatever it takes to make this right for that patient. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:27:30] give money back straight away, man. I mean, even don’t even ponder on it, although not as easy [01:27:35] as you think. Sometimes you work for a corporate, it has to go up the up the ladder and back down. Um, [01:27:40] what’s, what’s been what, what comes to mind if I ask you what’s been your darkest day [01:27:45] professionally?

Payman Langroudi: Uh, the day I got my GDC letter. [01:27:50]

Payman Langroudi: From a patient.

Payman Langroudi: From a. Yeah. So, um, long story [01:27:55] short, I was, I was still a GDP, but only just at this point, I was very [01:28:00] much perio trained and MSC nearly finished. And um.

Payman Langroudi: Was [01:28:05] it during that peak, GDC 2015, 2016 time?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, probably.

Payman Langroudi: Every single [01:28:10] dentist was.

Payman Langroudi: A little bit.

Payman Langroudi: Earlier. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Probably about probably about 2008. Oh, can’t quite remember. [01:28:15] But it was it was peak. It was.

Payman Langroudi: It was.

Payman Langroudi: Peak time of a type of severe distrust [01:28:20] with the profession. Yeah. Um, and I had a guy who knew patient consult, I treated his [01:28:25] family, uh, and he came in with a lesion lower right on his soft tissue on his gingiva [01:28:30] in his attached gingiva. Didn’t look great, but he said to me, oh, I’ve had this before. [01:28:35] And I said, what was it? And he said, I don’t know. I said, what do they do? He said, oh, I was up [01:28:40] in Glasgow. They lasered it off and you know, I said, well yeah, but what did they tell you? It was, [01:28:45] I can’t remember. And I said, well and I again, to add value to the story, it [01:28:50] was the 21st of December. So I said to him, look, doesn’t look great, [01:28:55] but you know, don’t know what it is. Um, let’s get it checked. And [01:29:00] I said, but you know, try not to worry about it because you’ve had it before. It was nothing. You’ve got it [01:29:05] again. It’ll probably be nothing. Don’t worry about it. Um and his [01:29:10] wife said for the consultation with him, uh, so off he goes. I write the [01:29:15] letter to oral surgery to oral medicine, and we start [01:29:20] over from a.

Payman Langroudi: Good old days.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. We fax it over and we actually ring oral medicine. [01:29:25] Say, have you got the facts? They said yes, because I did it as a two week, uh, referral. So [01:29:30] he then gets an appointment for the 3rd of January to go and see [01:29:35] them, bearing in mind how many bank holidays we’ve got in that period. So we’re doing all right. And then [01:29:40] on that day, there was a massive snowfall in Liverpool and his appointment got cancelled and [01:29:45] put back two weeks. And in that two weeks he comes in to see me again. Because now he’s he’s actually [01:29:50] in a lot of pain and he opens his mouth and everything’s changed and it’s clearly something very [01:29:55] horrible. Um, and so, but at this point I’m working at the hospital. [01:30:00] So I take a photo and I go in and speak to the head of oral medicine and say, look, [01:30:05] this guy was doing last week. He’s not coming in for another, you know, have a [01:30:10] look at this further. Two weeks and straight away they said, oh God that’s clearly a squamous cell [01:30:15] carcinoma. So I so they said, you know, we more than [01:30:20] just a concert. I will know when he’s coming in. We’ll have it all ready.

Payman Langroudi: We’ll do the biopsies. We’ll just, we’ll run the case. [01:30:25] And so, so I’m thinking this is this is great service that’s doing really [01:30:30] well. And then um, about the Easter, I get [01:30:35] the, the letter that or the book, the, the, the case booklet from the GDC [01:30:40] because this patient’s now going after everybody, uh, he’s going after the hospital for delaying [01:30:45] his care. He went after the Maxfax team for, you know, and they, they [01:30:50] just threw the hospital’s lawyers behind it. No one had done anything wrong. It was it was it was a desperately sad [01:30:55] case. He was lashing out. Um, there were no winners. No winners at all in this scenario. [01:31:00] But he went after me for failing to diagnose and failing to [01:31:05] treat his problem. And now you and I would hope that a GDC [01:31:10] caseworker would have looked at that and made it just go, you know, quick letter, [01:31:15] dear. You know, dear patient, this dentist has done everything he’s done more than everything, [01:31:20] you know, taking photos. I’d gone in and spoke to oral medicine because I had the luxury of that, that, that access, [01:31:25] um, that took 11 months for that to go away.

Payman Langroudi: 11 [01:31:30] months of back and forth as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Back and forth. Um, [01:31:35] it was such a difficult time. I, I was working at the hospital, [01:31:40] uh, and I remember going to speak to Callum Johnson and I said, look, I’ve got this problem. And I [01:31:45] said, look, if I don’t want to bring any shame on the hospital. And he said, you’ve done nothing wrong. Don’t worry about [01:31:50] it. I just started working with Amin up at clinic three, three, four.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, [01:31:55] I love that guy.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well, we we’ve worked together for 12 years, but I just started there with him. And [01:32:00] I approached him and I said, look, I don’t want to bring any embarrassment on the clinic, you know, because [01:32:05] my my back in the days we’d get the GDC booklet like once a month and [01:32:10] the case hearings would be in there. I thought, I’m going to be on there. I’m just building my reputation [01:32:15] at this point. I’m like ten years in, I’m just, I’m just just about building a name. I was [01:32:20] just started teaching with Phil. I said to Phil, look, I’ll stand back and I don’t want to bring any shame on your [01:32:25] great reputation. And I look back at all of them, said, you’ve done nothing wrong. [01:32:30] This is going to go away. Just you keep working with us, no problem. [01:32:35] But at the time, there was such a distrust of the GDC that [01:32:40] I doubted. I knew I’d done nothing wrong. I can tell a story now, and I know that given [01:32:45] my time again, I couldn’t have behaved any better. And everything was, you know, um, and [01:32:50] it, but it was a dark time. That was because I, you just constantly doubt yourself. [01:32:55]

Payman Langroudi: Everyone around you is telling you you’ve nothing to worry about. I remember coming down to London. Um, I [01:33:00] was with I’m with Dental protection and Jane Merivale, who’s now I think with BDA, was my [01:33:05] liaison. She was brilliant. She was. The support I got from from them was brilliant. And they brought in [01:33:10] external counsel because it was such a serious claim that if it was proven, the [01:33:15] consequences were going to be enormous, even though there was nothing to prove. But they brought in external [01:33:20] counsel. And I remember being in London, I had this meeting for about an hour, and I [01:33:25] felt totally reassured that everything was great. And they and they got to the end. She said, look, [01:33:30] don’t worry about this. Go away. Don’t worry. This is the easiest case that we’ve got to deal with at the moment. That [01:33:35] said, we don’t have a lot of faith in the GDC at the moment, and all of that hour of positivity [01:33:40] was undone and that’s how I slept. I didn’t sleep that night with that last sentence. Um, [01:33:45] that was dark and I was I was horrible to live with. [01:33:50] You know, I had young kids, um, I wasn’t present.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:33:55] was the emotion?

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Is it fear?

Payman Langroudi: Do you know what it was? [01:34:00] There was a fear of a. With hindsight, it’s ridiculous.

Payman Langroudi: And if anyone’s [01:34:05] losing your. Your.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, the profession and my one way of earning a living for my family and [01:34:10] my children. Um, we had not long moved home [01:34:15] house to the house we’re in now. We bought a doer upper. So the house was battered. Um, it [01:34:20] was our forever house in the project. And I thought, you know, how are we going to ever afford to run this and [01:34:25] make this work? There were visions of, you know, what else am I trained for? I mean, [01:34:30] we hear that in our profession all the time. What else can we do? And we can do a lot because we’ve got a lot of skill sets. [01:34:35] Yeah. Um, but just just a oh my God. You know, I’m going to embarrass [01:34:40] I’m in, I’m going to embarrass Phil. I’m going to let my family down. And [01:34:45] nobody could get through to me. You’ve actually done nothing wrong. This is going to be okay. [01:34:50] I just I knew it and I nodded and I just didn’t believe it until I got the letter [01:34:55] that.

Payman Langroudi: It was a funny time with the GDC at that point. It was really. It was an unknown entity. Yeah. Like [01:35:00] what was going to happen next?

Payman Langroudi: I think it was pre caseworkers as well. I think it didn’t it didn’t [01:35:05] go to a full hearing, but it went close to.

Payman Langroudi: You know it’s really interesting. It took 11 months [01:35:10] and you’ve done nothing wrong. Imagine you’d done something wrong. I mean you know like in [01:35:15] a career, sometimes you miss stuff. Sometimes you, you know, you make a mistake.

Payman Langroudi: All day long. [01:35:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s it’s the humanity side of that should be there too. But imagine now [01:35:25] you’ve done something wrong. Yeah. And you’re 11 months in.

Payman Langroudi: I genuinely don’t know how to cope with that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:35:30] And and concerned. You’re not going to be able to pay your kids school or your whatever it is, your mortgage or, [01:35:35] or whatever.

Payman Langroudi: I’d like to think we’re they’re better. I would like to think [01:35:40] they’re better. And I hear from people that they are.

Payman Langroudi: Improving, I think. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I still think we’ve got a way to go [01:35:45] because we you and I still see it on the forums. Yeah. The fear of of being [01:35:50] struck off. And I’ve said it before on, on forums, I actually think it’s relatively difficult to be [01:35:55] struck off. You’ve got to be a real idiot. And you’ve also, even if you make a mistake, the GDC don’t mind mistakes [01:36:00] as long as you show us how it’s not going to happen again. Show us that you’ve done some training. Show [01:36:05] us that you’ve. You know, I think, you know, I think the it is a better environment, [01:36:10] but I still think there’s a way to go. Um, but that was dark.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a funny thing because it’s [01:36:15] an irrational fear in some ways. Yeah. But, but at the same time, you go back [01:36:20] to that. What is it to be a professional? Yeah. One of the things is to be a professional is to be regulated. [01:36:25] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You’ll know from your wife that it’s the with lawyers, it’s the [01:36:30] same organisation that’s there, BDA and their GDC. Yeah. So, [01:36:35] so that that kind of goes to shows the point that it understands both sides. It understands [01:36:40] regulation and it sounds practice. But with us, there’s this sort of walled off, you [01:36:45] know, the BDA is like your friend, GDC is your enemy sort of thing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I think there was [01:36:50] definitely that mindset. And I also think, you know, thankfully, my wife never had any regulatory [01:36:55] issues that she had to deal with of her own. But I always saw with things like the Law Society [01:37:00] that there was an element of, we’re going to back our own and protect them. But if you prove that there that [01:37:05] this person’s a baddie, then obviously we’ll sort this out. And I think the one thing that we always [01:37:10] used to see with the GDC was that there was the fear that we were guilty until proven innocent. [01:37:15] You had to prove your innocence, not the other way. Not they didn’t have to prove your guilt. And [01:37:20] I think that was a fear, um, that we had, whether it was rational.

Payman Langroudi: Lawyers have one for [01:37:25] sure, dude. Yeah. Because notes have become this complete like, like you could have been the best [01:37:30] dentist in the world, but if you forgot to write that thing in the notes, that could be, you know, something [01:37:35] they get you on. Um, not to mention what’s it called? Dental law partnership. [01:37:40] Uh, they buy, they buy a case, you know about that. They go out there [01:37:45] and buy cases from all the other lawyers. Oh, your wife’s a lawyer. So you know how these.

Payman Langroudi: Ex-lawyer.

Payman Langroudi: Now, these sort of things work? Yeah. [01:37:50] Um, I feel like it needs to be an issue. Every dentist must have at some back [01:37:55] of his head something about standards and regulations, but not the number one, two, three, [01:38:00] four, five. Most important thing he’s thinking about, you know, number one, two and three should be [01:38:05] all around the patient. Yeah. You know, maybe then your team. Yeah. All of that then. Number 11. Yes. [01:38:10] Don’t be an idiot. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And you know, it’s interesting because I do a little bit [01:38:15] of teaching with, um, Leo Briggs from MD. You. Yeah. Um, he supports some of the [01:38:20] courses that we do and, and he, his view and I don’t want to put words in his mouth, but is [01:38:25] that we write too many notes. Yeah. And you actually, and I see it with some of the younger colleagues [01:38:30] I’m working with. When I get one of their patients referred in house, I can’t [01:38:35] actually find the pertinent information that I need because there’s all this noise. Yeah. And [01:38:40] our notes were always meant to be for us. You were supposed to be able to pick up someone else’s notes, know what [01:38:45] was done last time, know what’s supposed to be done next time. And it was, it was that. And obviously [01:38:50] if something bad happened, You. You told the story in the notes, but you didn’t record every [01:38:55] ounce of every conversation. And actually, you now look at people’s notes and you think, there’s [01:39:00] no way all those conversations actually happened.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a disease of the West, man.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Did you know [01:39:05] about this? Like in China, the last three Leaders Xie and Dong Xiaoping and whatever [01:39:10] they were, all of them were engineers. Okay. That’s why when they build skyscrapers, it goes up quickly [01:39:15] and all that. Okay. Over on this side, lawyers are in charge. Yeah. Lawyers are in charge. And it’s [01:39:20] like when you put lawyers in charge and lawyers win. I feel like they have in in Dental. Yeah. Then [01:39:25] then regulatory becomes over important and stuff like this happens. [01:39:30] You know what you’re saying there is very pertinent, right? Patient outcomes are getting worse [01:39:35] because you can’t find the important bits of the notes, let alone you’ve got to spend the time writing [01:39:40] those essays. Patient outcomes are getting worse. But lawyers have won.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:39:45] It’s quite.

Payman Langroudi: Crazy. It’s crazy.

Payman Langroudi: Can we do the grind the gears question again? Yeah. [01:39:50]

Payman Langroudi: Does your wife not practice anymore?

Payman Langroudi: No. [01:39:55] She left law a long time ago. She had a couple of careers over the years. Um, she did about ten years as a [01:40:00] property lawyer, but she’s done a few things since.

Payman Langroudi: Are you gonna do your own place, [01:40:05] or do you feel like you’re an associate?

Payman Langroudi: No, no. Um, I’ve nearly bought a practice twice. [01:40:10]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Um, nearly bought a practice many years ago, um, and got a bit shafted [01:40:15] at the 11th hour. Um, I had the option to buy into Rose Lane, um, a few years [01:40:20] back, but it would have meant, um dropping everything else. I did all my [01:40:25] teaching, my other clinics, my hospital at the time, because the only way to make it work was to be there [01:40:30] four and a half days a week. And I was only there three days a week. Um, and I made a conscious [01:40:35] decision. My wife and I made a conscious decision to that. We didn’t want to do that. I [01:40:40] loved teaching, I genuinely love teaching. Uh, it’s great fun. It’s [01:40:45] a, it’s a privilege. Um, And so I just thought, you know what? It’s not for me. And [01:40:50] with hindsight, I don’t for a minute regret it that I’ve not bought a practice and done it. I think [01:40:55] specialist practice, the goodwill is not worth the same as a general practice anyway. Um, I don’t [01:41:00] know that I’d, I’d have been a nice employer, but nice employers are not always the best, you know, [01:41:05] not the best business people.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and specialist associate is quite an interesting position isn’t it. Because [01:41:10] you get better, better um splits than generalists. Yeah. [01:41:15] I think plus the prices are higher. Yeah. So from the business perspective that’s cool. And [01:41:20] isn’t that a happy associate is one of the happiest jobs in the world. [01:41:25] Yeah. Yeah. You know, if you can, if you can do as a specialist, no one’s going to get in your way and tell you what to do. So you can [01:41:30] do what you want to do. All you need is patience, basically. That’s it. Yeah. End of no, [01:41:35] I would agree.

Payman Langroudi: I think all of those things that you’ve said, I, I, you know, yeah, you can command [01:41:40] a slightly better sort of split. You are working on a better split of a higher [01:41:45] fee. Um, you don’t need to be there five days a week because you’re not their general dentist, [01:41:50] you’re not there, you’re not there for the cement crowns. So you can do piecemeal work. The [01:41:55] peripatetic sort of work. Um, the only thing I’d say to [01:42:00] any associate listening is you’ve got to, you’ve got to understand the business [01:42:05] side of a practice though having nearly bought a couple of practices over the years, nearly done that. Yeah. [01:42:10] I, when I go to a practice and I’d hope that anyone I’ve worked with will testify [01:42:15] to this, I’m all in. It’s all it’s about me and I want the best for me. But actually, [01:42:20] I also want the best for the practice. And I’ve always done everything I can to promote the practice and [01:42:25] also promote my colleagues in the practice, because we we all benefit [01:42:30] when we all pull together.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely. Right. I mean, when I was an associate, I used to make an [01:42:35] absolute point of defending the principle amongst the nurses. Yeah. You know, like that [01:42:40] us and them thing that can go on. Um, number one, but number two I see it on mini [01:42:45] smile maker on our um composite course you get some associates come and [01:42:50] there’s a, there’s a friction between them and their boss that they 100% [01:42:55] will not buy a goddamn thing. Yeah, yeah, I get it. By the way, I [01:43:00] get it. If your boss keeps on changing your percentage and treating you like terribly, you [01:43:05] start to think, well, why should I put my hand in my pocket? But then you get the other side. You get these super [01:43:10] associates, whatever they call it. The guys bought his own scanner. He’s come he’s [01:43:15] buying everything from us, you know, and and he’s very happy. I mean, he I guess again, [01:43:20] you know, it’s a winner you’re talking about, right? Someone who’s managing to bring his own patients [01:43:25] in and all that.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: But then but then everything in between as well. But your [01:43:30] point is excellent because the associates job is, is much more than take [01:43:35] care of these patients. If you’re going to be someone who’s going to, you know, enjoy your work, right? [01:43:40] Enjoy your work, Understand that running a business is tough, and [01:43:45] the number of associates who don’t even realise they’re making a loss for their practice. A number of principals don’t [01:43:50] realise associates are making a loss for their practice. There’s a good amount you have to earn as an associate just [01:43:55] to be cash flow positive for the practice.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. Um, [01:44:00] I see as you see on some of the platforms on social media, you know, I’m an associate. I pay my [01:44:05] X percent. I want this, this and this. It’s all very, it’s all very me, me, myself [01:44:10] and I.

Payman Langroudi: Entitled.

Payman Langroudi: And yes, you are your own business. And yes, you’ve got to look after yourself. But [01:44:15] at the same time, you know, you are a business within a business and that your business is only going [01:44:20] to survive if that business does well. And it, I don’t know, I’ve been at Rose Lane now [01:44:25] for 15 years in.

Payman Langroudi: A happy place.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s a really good place.

Payman Langroudi: You’re blessed [01:44:30] man.

Payman Langroudi: You’re blessed that every now and then there are issues a 17 [01:44:35] surgeries we’ve just moved to. It’s so.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Just expanded. It’s a great 17 [01:44:40] surgeries for floor. Fully digital in the house lab practice in the practice in-house.

Payman Langroudi: All [01:44:45] the specialities as well.

Payman Langroudi: Every everything apart from maxfax. Um so yeah, perio. [01:44:50]

Payman Langroudi: Who’s the who’s the principal.

Payman Langroudi: Guy called Paul Swanson.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Paul Swanson.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, he’s done really well. He’s [01:44:55] a good guy.

Payman Langroudi: What a hero.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know what the one thing about Paul, he’s never, never [01:45:00] over promised anything and not delivered.

Payman Langroudi: To.

Payman Langroudi: You. To me, I’d say, um. But equally, [01:45:05] if I if I want something, I can’t have it, he’ll tell me why. Um, he’s also [01:45:10] whenever, if ever there was a time where there was a, you know, a split where it [01:45:15] could go 51% in my favour and 49% of his, that’s what he’d take that because it was like, [01:45:20] well, I don’t need that 1% makes no difference. But Ian will be happier. He’s just got he’s had a bigger picture [01:45:25] attitude about not the next six weeks, but the next six years or 20 years. [01:45:30] And you know, I’ll I won’t leave that practice. I’ll retire from there. I’m there three days a week. [01:45:35] I’m a high grossing associate. He knows I look after the patients well. My perio [01:45:40] feeds his implant work because I get sent stuff that Harry Potter couldn’t fix. You [01:45:45] know? So it’s a win win.

Payman Langroudi: How old is he?

Payman Langroudi: He’s actually. He’s [01:45:50] younger than me now. He’s 49.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, amazing. Amazing. So you really will be there for the rest [01:45:55] of your career? Yeah. He’s a good guy. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: He’s. He’s been a good guy to work with. He’s a good friend. And yeah, [01:46:00] a lot of respect. And what he’s built is, is quite incredible. Yeah. Good on him.

Payman Langroudi: We [01:46:05] come to the end of our time. I’m going to end with the usual questions. Um, some quick fire ones. What stands [01:46:10] out to you as one of the best lectures you’ve ever been to? Or a course lecture? I like lecture I’m quite [01:46:15] interested in.

Payman Langroudi: I’m going to give you two, if you don’t mind.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Of course.

Payman Langroudi: So in terms of inspirational, [01:46:20] like blow Your Mind lectures, you’re looking at people for me, like Otto Zur in Germany, [01:46:25] the plastics guy. Um, okay. So while [01:46:30] some of the Italians are truly inspirational, they also often come with big egos. And Otto [01:46:35] is someone who is is quite humble considering how skilled he is. And I’ve spent time with him and [01:46:40] he wants to talk more about Bayern Munich and Liverpool Football Club than just about plastics. [01:46:45] And I’ve spent time over there and they. That blew my mind. What they can achieve and the evidence [01:46:50] base that the way he teaches it was phenomenal. Um, I’ll go back to fill our [01:46:55] though it was 2002 when I got Liverpool job and I [01:47:00] thought, I need to go and do a course and I went and did a four day section 63 [01:47:05] NHS, I think it was three I think Aintree Hospital. And [01:47:10] that blew my mind. I just it was like for all the training [01:47:15] we’d had at undergraduate level, I didn’t really understand anything. We just scraped stuff off teeth [01:47:20] and then we did it again six months later and they just like the. The clouds parted [01:47:25] and just there was clarity and everything made sense off the back of it. And I remember [01:47:30] leaving thinking, is it really that simple? You know, yes, perio can be very complicated, but [01:47:35] actually most of it is very simple fundamentals, doing the basics really well. And [01:47:40] that probably goes for tooth whitening and you know, do the basics really well and you’ll get good [01:47:45] results. And that that, you know, Arlene Thiel well, she changed my life because she [01:47:50] gave me the job that I didn’t really think I wanted. But then fill hour was the one who lit the little fire underneath [01:47:55] me because within, within four years of me going on that NHS [01:48:00] section 63 course, 2006, I went to Madrid to my first Euro perio. [01:48:05]

Payman Langroudi: You guys love that, don’t you? It’s like.

Payman Langroudi: Perio Olympics.

Payman Langroudi: Glastonbury, it’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Olympics. [01:48:10] Every three years in a major European city. 10,000 people, 10,000 [01:48:15] people.

Payman Langroudi: How many? 30 stages or something?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, you’ve usually got at least ten stages [01:48:20] at any one time. The main auditorium is normally about six, 5 to 6000 people. They’re big.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:48:25] interesting.

Payman Langroudi: That’s great. And it’s not all perio. A lot of implant stuff, a lot of research stuff. It’s [01:48:30] it’s. Yeah. And every three years we’re all we’re all going to Munich in 2028. It’ll be great.

Payman Langroudi: Nice. [01:48:35]

Payman Langroudi: So yeah. So. So yeah, the flower thing probably for me was the [01:48:40] career changing lecture. And it wasn’t a lecture, it was a course, but it really did.

Payman Langroudi: What about [01:48:45] if there was no time or money constraints. What course would you jump into tomorrow?

Payman Langroudi: I [01:48:50] would go and do the whole [01:48:55] Otto and Marcus Hertzler talk. The whole program. You look, it’s about [01:49:00] it’s about 30, 40 grand a year. So it’s almost like a mini masters, but it’s it’s [01:49:05] more just the hands on stuff. Um, those guys are gods. It doesn’t matter who you are, you’re [01:49:10] going to be able to learn something from them. I went over and did something just before the pandemic. Um, and [01:49:15] just, you know, remember feeling like I actually knew nothing about anything. And because I’d [01:49:20] had a couple of difficult, I’d had a couple of cases not go perfectly well. And I thought, you know what, even though I was teaching [01:49:25] some of this stuff, I thought, I need to just go back and have a refresh. You know, everyone should do that. You know, [01:49:30] no one’s too big to go on a course. And every time you go on a course, you learn something new anyway. [01:49:35] And so I went over to Munich, spent three days with with the two of them, um, and [01:49:40] just just tweaked everything and came back and then everything started working again.

Payman Langroudi: I got [01:49:45] massive respect for teachers who go on courses, man, you know, like a, it might be [01:49:50] difficult, you know, like for socially difficult to turn up as a delegate. Um, [01:49:55] but it’s.

Payman Langroudi: A bit of humility though.

Payman Langroudi: You know. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t know it all. You never [01:50:00] will know it all. Yeah. You know, you can learn from monarch. Monarch [01:50:05] can learn from someone else or learn from it. It’s just no [01:50:10] one’s got all the answers. And so, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Very true.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I actually think it’s almost [01:50:15] wrong to have a guru. You know, I always think you should if you if you your world is composite, you [01:50:20] should hear the gospel according to 3 or 4 different people. Gallup or, you know, [01:50:25] I think we had D-Day over at the weekend and we were Gulfport, D.J.. You know, [01:50:30] you should go and listen to other people and think, right, whose philosophy fits with me? And that’s the same for perio. So [01:50:35] for us, is it Otto? Is it Zucchelli? Is it Amit Patel? Is it me? Is [01:50:40] it who is it? You know, um, the the Peri Academy. Who is it? Go [01:50:45] and listen to people and decide who do I fit with? Um, because we don’t know. [01:50:50] No one knows it all.

Payman Langroudi: So what comes to mind when I ask what’s your favourite resource? What’s your favourite [01:50:55] book?

Payman Langroudi: Uh, the, the Perry Bible, I [01:51:00] suppose is the, the Lindy textbook. It’s like double volume. Don’t really go to [01:51:05] that much anymore. That was my go to book when I was studying. Um, again, I [01:51:10] keep I’m going to get sponsored by these guys, but Otto’s uh, has, has the big pink book that everyone [01:51:15] talks about the Perry plastic surgery. Yeah. So teeth and implants, that’s just one of the most [01:51:20] beautifully photographed and put together Bibles on the planet. You know, it’s just amazing. [01:51:25]

Payman Langroudi: Love in your face when you say it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just it’s just Kool and the gang stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what about [01:51:30] resource like maybe website, uh, blog, uh, Instagram page or [01:51:35] whatever it is.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know, I’ve got to be honest from a point of view, I don’t follow [01:51:40] many. Um, I tend to follow people. Lecture wise, I’ll go to conferences [01:51:45] because they’re there. Um, I prefer live in, [01:51:50] in event type learning. Um, I think in terms of keeping [01:51:55] in touch with the profession, you know, for dentists by dentists is the biggest platform. [01:52:00] Um, and I’m on there and I contribute and I listen and you [01:52:05] take stuff in. Um, and in terms of personal resource, if I, if I’m [01:52:10] struggling with something, I’m very lucky that through my work over the years with people like the [01:52:15] BSP, I’m quite well connected. I can, I can send Ian Chappell or Philip Preece or a [01:52:20] WhatsApp and, and just have that back up that I’ve, I got this [01:52:25] right Or am I.

Payman Langroudi: Doing this wrong that we all need that.

Payman Langroudi: Mentors or peer support? You know you’ve [01:52:30] got to do it was Nick, wasn’t it? The network effect. Build [01:52:35] your network. Yeah. Whatever world you’re in, build a network, build people that you can, you [01:52:40] can just go, I need a favour or can I ask you this? Or, you know, we [01:52:45] I think we do it. We do it all the time and people do it to me. And I think, you know, when [01:52:50] you’re lucky enough to be part of other people’s network, be there and be be present and [01:52:55] give your time. Because we’ve all had a hand up, haven’t we?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So I was going to say, you must [01:53:00] have that now with mentees, right. Huge, you know, getting people excited about, [01:53:05] you know, people did that for you. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well, even if it’s just a couple of people coming in and [01:53:10] watching me in the clinic or, you know, coming on the course or wanting some mentorship or just some just a Facebook [01:53:15] message and advice, you always, I always just think, well, I had this support, so you [01:53:20] got to pay it back, haven’t you? Yeah. For sure. It’s, um, I think people need to remember [01:53:25] that.

Payman Langroudi: Final question. Yeah, it’s a fantasy dinner party. Three [01:53:30] guests, dead or alive. Who are you having?

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:53:35] so I did think about this one because I knew I hear the song, all you podcasts. [01:53:40] I’m sort of going to go with a bit of a musical theme. So [01:53:45] it’s not it’s not that musical, but you’ll get it when I explain. So my grandad, my mum’s [01:53:50] dad, um, he passed away before I was 18. Uh, [01:53:55] he never knew I went to dental school. I’d loved to have. I’d loved him to see where I’m. What I’m doing [01:54:00] now. Um, he had a real passion for music. So my musical [01:54:05] tastes are very weird and wonderful. Quite eclectic. One of his things was he [01:54:10] bought every number one single, whether he liked it or not, on on seven inch for about 8 [01:54:15] or 9 years. It’s a collection. Every single one. So whether you know, um, and [01:54:20] he always taught me that a good song is a good song, whether it’s hip hop, R&B, country [01:54:25] and Western rap. You know, just.

Payman Langroudi: I think that I think I agree with that, with the foreign, you know, like sometimes I don’t understand [01:54:30] a word of what’s being said, but it’s good music. Yeah, it’s a good song.

Payman Langroudi: If it’s a bassline or a riff [01:54:35] or something. So my granddad for that reason, and he was a good [01:54:40] guy. One of the people, he was the life and soul of a party. So he’d be great to have a dinner party. Um, [01:54:45] next one’s a bit weird, but I was chatting to my wife about this, but I. Chris [01:54:50] Evans is someone I really like, the radio presenter, Chris Evans.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I know Chris Evans because he. [01:54:55]

Payman Langroudi: I just think.

Payman Langroudi: Back in our day he was on fire. Do you remember.

Payman Langroudi: Well, there was TFI and there was [01:55:00] don’t forget your toothbrush. And he was living quite a wild hedonistic life wasn’t he? Yeah, yeah. [01:55:05]

Payman Langroudi: Um what’s he up to now?

Payman Langroudi: I think he’d have great stories. I think so. He’s [01:55:10] now on. Well he was on radio two for years and now he hosts Virgin. And he’s he’s [01:55:15] totally different to who he was. He’s now teetotal and he’s he’s into running. But he’s actually [01:55:20] incredibly positive. And some people will hate that. Some people don’t. You know, it’s just too annoyingly [01:55:25] positive and upbeat all the time. Driving into work every morning. I quite like the [01:55:30] start to the day. Yeah. And I just think he I like his outlook on life and I like [01:55:35] and, and also he’s got that music background. He’s interviewed, he’s, he’s interviewed and partied with [01:55:40] some of the big, big names. Yeah, for sure. So he’d be good. Um, and my [01:55:45] last one is probably a sort of a musical sort of sort of hero would be Billy Joel. Oh, [01:55:50] um, another guy who’s probably been a bit of a hellraiser in his time and would have some good stories. My granddad [01:55:55] wouldn’t fit in because he was almost teetotal, but he’d fit in with Chris Evans new model. Um, but [01:56:00] yeah, Billy Joel, he’s, he’s someone who I’ve only seen live once. Um, but it was someone that my [01:56:05] granddad got me listening to. Um, and yeah, I think that would make [01:56:10] for an interesting evening. Um, but yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Last question is a deathbed question. Three [01:56:15] pieces of advice for your loved ones on your deathbed.

Payman Langroudi: Um. [01:56:20]

Payman Langroudi: You know what? You know what? Let’s skip that. Let’s skip that, because the chances of that seem [01:56:25] to be very similar every time I ask them. Okay, like another one. Um, how would you like to be remembered? [01:56:30]

Payman Langroudi: As a nice guy who doesn’t [01:56:35] take himself too seriously and will always help if you [01:56:40] ask, that would do.

Payman Langroudi: Love that. Perfect.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s [01:56:45] that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Me. That’s someone who’s not taking himself too seriously. Yeah. No, that’s a perfect answer. [01:56:50] Good. It’s been amazing, man. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been good fun.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. [01:56:55] Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure you tune in for future episodes. Hit [01:57:00] subscribe in iTunes or Google Play or whatever platform it is. And [01:57:05] you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you would, um.

Payman Langroudi: Give us a six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star [01:57:10] rating. That’s what I always leave my Uber driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks [01:57:15] a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.