Month: August 2026

Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by enlighten. Enlighten is an advanced teeth whitening system. Join [00:00:05] us for online training where I’ll take you through everything you need to know about how to [00:00:10] assess a case quickly, how to use the system, how to talk to patients. Because when [00:00:15] you know you can deliver brilliant results, it’s so much easier to talk about it. To book your course, which takes [00:00:20] only an hour. It’s completely free. Visit enlighten Online training.com. [00:00:25] Now let’s get to the pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The podcast [00:00:35] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:40] hosts, Payman Langroudi [00:00:45] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Bashar Al-turk [00:00:50] to the podcast. This is a long time coming, dude. It’s been what? When was the first time [00:00:55] you contacted me? A good year and a half. Two years ago.

Bashar Alturk: I think so, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You must have been a third year [00:01:00] dental student back then.

Bashar Alturk: That’s correct.

Payman Langroudi: But I was just qualified as a dentist. Fingers crossed. [00:01:05] Um, got your graduation coming up. And, uh, also [00:01:10] an Olympic hopeful at the very highest level of, uh, trampolining. Just missed [00:01:15] out on the last Olympics because of an injury and still training.

Bashar Alturk: That’s correct. [00:01:20] Thank you very much for the invitation. And thank you so much for the warm introduction. [00:01:25]

Payman Langroudi: My pleasure. So you’re at Leeds finishing off five years. Just [00:01:30] give me that feeling.

Bashar Alturk: Mixed emotions. I think [00:01:35] just I think I don’t look at it as five years. I think it’s [00:01:40] been the 20 ish years of education. Yeah. It’s it’s it really [00:01:45] is going to be a win for me and my family massively. Um, really excited. [00:01:50] Looking forward to the future. Sad. You know, it’s going to be the last [00:01:55] time. And I do appreciate with all of us together as a group, as friends. [00:02:00] The last time you can go out with your friends on a random day and enjoy yourself. [00:02:05] But I think ready to move on. Really looking forward to it.

Payman Langroudi: And what’s [00:02:10] your feelings about Leeds, the town you grew up in? Manchester.

Bashar Alturk: That’s [00:02:15] correct.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. These are good student town it is. But what? You know, just give me [00:02:20] some Leeds reflections.

Bashar Alturk: Smaller than Manchester. Yeah, I’ve really liked [00:02:25] it. Very similar.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: As a student city. Amazing. Whether it’s the nights [00:02:30] out or you’re only 25 minutes away from the countryside or you’re not too far away from the Peak District. [00:02:35] Um, I’ve loved it. Just middle sized city. [00:02:40] But the student life and the student connections been amazing. And [00:02:45] I’ll miss it.

Payman Langroudi: I thought I was in Cardiff and the size of city. I reckon Cardiff [00:02:50] and Leeds are similar. Um. It’s a, it’s a brilliant sized city. Yeah. Because I grew up [00:02:55] in London But the nice thing about those cities is they’re big enough that [00:03:00] if you want to see a live music performance, you can. Or you want [00:03:05] to go to watch an ice hockey game. There is. Yeah, but they’re small [00:03:10] enough that if you bump into someone for the first time, if you meet someone for the first time, you [00:03:15] know, at some point in the future, you’re going to bump into that person again. And that’s super interesting [00:03:20] for me because in London, it’s quite the opposite. You know, you will never see this person ever again. It puts a [00:03:25] different sort of slant on the relationship. Yeah. Does that resonate.

Bashar Alturk: Massively, [00:03:30] even to the point where you meeting people in Leeds and even, [00:03:35] let’s say for the second time, and you’ve seen the person before and you’re a bit like, yeah, I remember [00:03:40] you and was like, you know, coming to London today and it’s just a complete different world. [00:03:45] Yeah. But going back to Leeds, I quite like it. There’s, there’s more of a connection, [00:03:50] but also a pressure because I know, like you said, you will see this person again and this person will know this [00:03:55] person and who will also know this person.

Payman Langroudi: So it also means, you know, that people are nicer to each [00:04:00] other because of that. Yes. Yeah. Because if you think I’m never going to see this guy again and you’re [00:04:05] an idiot, you might, you know, whatever, not hold the door open for him, let’s say. Yeah. Yeah. But [00:04:10] whereas if everyone’s kind of connected, I remember in Cardiff, you’re standing in the queue in some shop trying to buy a bottle of [00:04:15] water, and everyone’s talking to each other in the queue. The Welsh are very special that way. [00:04:20] The Yorkshire people are too.

Bashar Alturk: I can imagine it’s very similar, I can imagine.

Payman Langroudi: Did you find the difference between Yorkshire [00:04:25] people and Manchester people? They are different.

Bashar Alturk: I think very similar. The [00:04:30] accents different.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, I know that.

Bashar Alturk: But I think personally [00:04:35] what I found up north are a lot more lovelier, if [00:04:40] that’s a word. Um. Chirpy. Um. Happy to smile in your face. Yeah. [00:04:45] Um, when I’ve walked past London today, everyone’s, you know, busy just like, like [00:04:50] a rat race, as they say quickly. So I’ve, I’ve quite enjoyed being up north. I think, [00:04:55] um, or living up north. Um, I think they’re very similar, um, kind, happy [00:05:00] to help, um, easygoing people I think.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I find that Manchester [00:05:05] it’s got, it’s so kind of got everything. Yeah. That people kind of hold themselves a little bit, [00:05:10] you know, they, they, you know, they might be dressed in designer gear and this and that and [00:05:15] having Wagyu steak or whatever. Manchester’s got everything. Yeah. You know, so that attitude, for [00:05:20] instance, I find Liverpool people much easier to talk to. Like cold, cold [00:05:25] approach. Cold talk to someone you’ve [00:05:30] never met before. Yeah, a Liverpool person. I just find it easy. It’s like water. Yeah. [00:05:35] They’re just so cool and funny and friendly.

Bashar Alturk: Similar to the Irish, I find [00:05:40] very lovely people. Yes. Now you mention Manchester, [00:05:45] so I know old Manchester. I think Manchester itself is changing rapidly. [00:05:50] Um, and I think now I’m going into, you know, mid 20s when I [00:05:55] see that that sort of side of people, the, the nice designer gear, the dresses, and they’re going out to [00:06:00] fancy places. Whereas the people that I’ve met from Manchester through growing up slightly different. [00:06:05]

Payman Langroudi: Um, which part of Manchester did you grow up?

Bashar Alturk: So I grew up in North Manchester, which people [00:06:10] will say sometimes is the darker side of Manchester. Yeah. Um in a place called Prestwich. Um but [00:06:15] I’ve loved it um very close to town, very close to everything, whether it’s a gym, [00:06:20] um travel or takeaway, [00:06:25] you’ve, you’ve got it all in fact, um I was saying gymnastics, I lived [00:06:30] four minutes away from, from the gym. So that was beautiful. It was and that’s what got me into the sport [00:06:35] at first. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about that. How old were you when you first did gymnastics? [00:06:40]

Bashar Alturk: I think I was around two years old.

Payman Langroudi: Two.

Bashar Alturk: Two years old. So I’ve known my original [00:06:45] coach since I was two years old.

Payman Langroudi: Bloody hell.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Cool.

Bashar Alturk: Um, Santa [00:06:50] was close by. I think the original story was mum just wanted [00:06:55] us to get into as much sports, whether it was swimming, horse riding, um, [00:07:00] trampolining, whatever was close by and whatever we could do at the time when we’d put everything [00:07:05] into us.

Payman Langroudi: Pushy, pushy Arab mum.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. Pushy Arab mum.

Payman Langroudi: But.

Bashar Alturk: Purely for the [00:07:10] love of us, like.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, of.

Bashar Alturk: Course, you know, mum put us first financially, everything. [00:07:15] She just wanted us to have as many experiences. There’s four of us, including me. Oh, [00:07:20] really? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which number are you?

Bashar Alturk: I’m the second. So. Oldest boy. Um, older [00:07:25] sister. Me younger sister, who’s just below, like a year, I think. [00:07:30] And then a younger brother who’s quite considerably younger, about 14 now. Um, so [00:07:35] it’s a, it’s a nice dynamic. I’ve really enjoyed that. So mum. Yeah. She took us to the sport. [00:07:40]

Payman Langroudi: What kind of a house is it. Would you class it as, as a Jordanian house.

Bashar Alturk: I’d [00:07:45] like to say Jordanian, but I think the bigger word is chaotic. It’s [00:07:50] the most chaotic house. And since living back, living [00:07:55] at uni and walking in back at home, I say, mum, dad, I can’t do this.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:08:00] stuff happening all the time.

Bashar Alturk: Stuff happening and little [00:08:05] arguments. We all love each other. But yeah, I’d say very Jordanian. Um, a very [00:08:10] Jordanian household, I like that.

Payman Langroudi: So then, okay, two, two years old jumping [00:08:15] around in the gym. All right. Yeah. How did that become Olympics.

Bashar Alturk: So [00:08:20] yeah, just I think we’d all gone together. Me and my two older older sister, me and [00:08:25] my two sisters. And I’d gone in and just sort of played around. Um, [00:08:30] I think the coach really took a liking to me at this point. Um, if you get to know me, I’ll try everything. [00:08:35] I’ll do anything jump off, um, a really high cliff as long as it’s safe to, to a [00:08:40] degree, I’ll do it. I’ll have to skydive. I’d love to do what? What? Whatever is cool. I’ll go [00:08:45] for it. And I remember going back when I was about four years of age, 4 or [00:08:50] 5, and they were better than me. So the first competition that we ever did actually jump into that, both [00:08:55] of my sisters beat me considerably. So it was very interesting, but I stuck at [00:09:00] it and I loved it. And there were periods that we’d stopped. And I remember [00:09:05] being around 5 or 6 at the time, and we had a garden in the back, trampoline in the garden. [00:09:10] We had a trampoline in the garden, and I landed on my head. So this was [00:09:15] the start of my injury prone career.

Bashar Alturk: And I remember being rushed off to hospital. Um, [00:09:20] I think I’d only bruised my neck or something, but it was really like my mum was like, no, you [00:09:25] really enjoy this. Focus on it. Let’s take you into training again. Um, and [00:09:30] from then it just, it just flourished. Um, every Friday after [00:09:35] school we’d go to training and um, the coach spotted me, um and [00:09:40] from that regional national and really accelerated quite [00:09:45] quick, um, with anything that I do. I put a lot of effort into it and [00:09:50] I adore trampoline just stuck with me. Whether I was in school, I wouldn’t be thinking about, [00:09:55] um, what we were being taught. I’ve got like old sketchbooks [00:10:00] and I’ve just been drawing like trampolines and me on a podium with a Chinese and a Russian [00:10:05] guy, and I just adored it. I just YouTube was just trampoline and I [00:10:10] think it was from applying myself inadvertently. I didn’t know what I was [00:10:15] doing, but I was so engulfed in the world of trampoline. I just started to get better and better. Um, [00:10:20] and I really loved it. And then I got into the squads and, and [00:10:25] that was it.

Payman Langroudi: Do you consider yourself super competitive? Right. Must be.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah, massively, majorly [00:10:30] competitive.

Payman Langroudi: And an adrenaline junkie.

Bashar Alturk: Massively as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. No, I [00:10:35] read a thing about adrenaline junkies here that, uh, like much like your first trampolining [00:10:40] was age two. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, in a way like your body shape [00:10:45] as it’s if you’re doing something as it’s forming that goes into your [00:10:50] sort of muscle memory, if you like. Yeah. And I’ve noticed, like, I don’t know, when [00:10:55] I was 27, someone told me, know when you ride a bike, the toe of your bike [00:11:00] needs to be on the pedal, not the, not the, the arch of your, your foot. Okay. So at 27, [00:11:05] I decided from now on, I’m going to just do that. I’m going to always have my toe on the front of [00:11:10] the thing. Yeah. And from 27 to 47, that’s how I rode. And it [00:11:15] never felt right. Yeah. No. Because from two till 27 I was doing it the other way. And [00:11:20] my muscles had moved, you know, in that direction. Yeah. So I know [00:11:25] physically jumping around at two, two years old, your body ends up forming. And [00:11:30] but I’m more interested in the mental side of it here. So you said to me before [00:11:35] you, you at school, you had short attention span and, and that sort of thing, ADHD [00:11:40] and naughty in class and all that. But [00:11:45] what would you say is the mental side of for you [00:11:50] of being an elite athlete?

Bashar Alturk: I [00:11:55] think it’s an adjunct. If anything, I think having [00:12:00] ADHD. Sport [00:12:05] gives me something. Um, focus, focus. It makes me focus not just in sport, [00:12:10] hyper fixated on the sport, but also outside. So we didn’t really know I had ADHD [00:12:15] until it was Covid time. Oh really? So it was in school and [00:12:20] I was very naughty in school.

Payman Langroudi: And you were in school during Covid?

Bashar Alturk: Um, well, I had to go back to school during Covid [00:12:25] because I found it so hard to stay at home.

Payman Langroudi: But you were a school kid at that point? [00:12:30]

Bashar Alturk: Yes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It makes me feel very old, man. Yeah. Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: It’s such a [00:12:35] long time ago. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It feels like day before yesterday. So [00:12:40] what were your A-levels at that point?

Bashar Alturk: Um GCSE first year of A-levels. Okay. [00:12:45] And it was a shock to the system. And it was it was really hard. And I’m not sure what [00:12:50] Covid was like for yourself, but.

Payman Langroudi: Scary.

Bashar Alturk: Scary, scary. Did you know you’ve [00:12:55] got I found you’ve got two sides of people, those who adored lockdown and.

Payman Langroudi: Oh [00:13:00] yeah, I adored the time. I adored the time. But you know, business is going to go under. Yeah. [00:13:05] You know, at that point we were over extended as well. We had like 40 people.

Bashar Alturk: Oh, [00:13:10] wow.

Payman Langroudi: And we were moving. We were putting a lab in and all this, you know, financially with business. You said you love [00:13:15] business. Yeah. With business, as you know, you’ve had a couple of businesses at least your own. As [00:13:20] you know, there are times where you risk the whole business at the beginning. Yeah. You risk the whole business [00:13:25] on one move. Yeah. Because it’s the beginning. You’ve got nothing. Yeah. Now obviously [00:13:30] it’s a different thing. Like I know some people do do that. Elon Musk. Elon Musk famously [00:13:35] risked Tesla and SpaceX at the [00:13:40] same time. Yeah. Um, anyway, but yeah, so we were overextended. So in business, [00:13:45] sometimes you do get overextended financially. Yeah. And then suddenly overnight. And so [00:13:50] I think at the time we were bringing in, it was like £18,000 a day was coming in [00:13:55] at the time. Right. Suddenly overnight zero. Yeah. And we were overextended. Yeah. [00:14:00] So 0000000. And then it was like, wait a [00:14:05] minute. What’s going to happen? How am I going to pay the team? Yeah. And then they announced the furlough [00:14:10] scheme over here. But loads of countries. There was no there was no furlough scheme. Yeah. Even in America, [00:14:15] some loads of businesses went under in that fear of that was like [00:14:20] a real. Imagine in your head was a massive. But every business owner went through it.

Bashar Alturk: I [00:14:25] can imagine how difficult that was.

Payman Langroudi: And so. So did you go see a doctor, [00:14:30] a psychologist, someone like how did you get this diagnosis that I am ADHD just.

Bashar Alturk: It was always [00:14:35] pushed during school, but I don’t know if it’s similar to Middle Eastern parents. Mum was like, no, he’s fine. [00:14:40] We’re going to work on it. He’s okay.

Payman Langroudi: We were talking about this last night. Yeah, my cousin’s [00:14:45] a psychiatrist. No, we were saying the Middle Eastern position on mental health is either crazy [00:14:50] or sane. Those are the only two positions.

Bashar Alturk: Exactly. [00:14:55] But I thought it was almost advantageous. Oh, yeah. Looking. [00:15:00] We’ve discussed it a lot in depth with my mum, but from primary school we’d [00:15:05] have an assessment, but it would always be stopped before we get the diagnosis. And my mum [00:15:10] didn’t believe in labelling. It’s a very, very dangerous territory because one [00:15:15] could argue a lot of help could have been given.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry. Bless you.

Bashar Alturk: But [00:15:20] one could argue that a lot of help could be given at the right time. But for me, I found [00:15:25] that not labelling myself, I had to apply myself in the same way I did with [00:15:30] sport. This is just me. I knew that I found it difficult to focus. So [00:15:35] I finished training around 9:00 and during GCSE period and go home and just revise, [00:15:40] and I’d be sat down at a desk for 4 or 5 hours, not really doing [00:15:45] anything, and then time would go and I knew there was something. So [00:15:50] yeah, going back to it, mum was just like, no, no, don’t want to get him to Labour. I just [00:15:55] had to work really hard, hit Covid and that was it. There was no sport, there was no [00:16:00] socialising with friends, everything got cut short and it was very clear [00:16:05] and it wasn’t. Adhd for me isn’t just focusing um on on [00:16:10] tasks or is it just focusing in school? It’s the wider picture, it’s relationships, [00:16:15] friendships, liaising with people, emotions as well. [00:16:20] Um, and we found it really hard during Covid. I just not sure what to do at the time.

Bashar Alturk: Um, [00:16:25] so we discussed it with school and we was getting to the point where I was going to sit my [00:16:30] exams and part of me thought this will get me some extra time during my, you know, applying for dental school. I’ll [00:16:35] take the help. And yeah, we saw a psychiatrist [00:16:40] and educational psychiatrist, one through the school and that was liaised with, um, and [00:16:45] diagnosed me. I scored incredibly high on the test. I remember, um, and [00:16:50] the difference is now sometimes if [00:16:55] I’m really struggling and I found that school incredibly hard, sometimes I, you know, I’ll be on the phone [00:17:00] to my mum and I’ll say, yeah, it’s, I’m finding it really difficult to focus now and I can almost [00:17:05] subconsciously blame. It was I think if I’d done that very [00:17:10] early on during my education career, maybe I’d be at a different point of view. So reflecting on it, [00:17:15] I think delaying the diagnosis has worked in my favour. [00:17:20] I wouldn’t advise it. I’m not sure what your other alternative was, [00:17:25] but it was very useful for me because I didn’t have anything to blame. [00:17:30] I just had to work hard. Just.

Payman Langroudi: I think this is a mindset in itself, isn’t it? Like [00:17:35] another person, a losing mindset, would blame it for not getting to the Olympics [00:17:40] or something. Yeah, yeah. It’s a mindset in itself to take something negative and turn it into positive. [00:17:45] Do you think that’s kind of you anyway?

Bashar Alturk: Massively. And it’s not always been me. There’s definitely [00:17:50] been times where I’ve really struggled, but I think say with whatever, whether it was the [00:17:55] businesses that we discussed or Dental school or sport, I’ve always found it sink [00:18:00] or swim. Loads of times people have told me, don’t do this or don’t try this [00:18:05] or just focus. Don’t be a jack of all trades. You need to be a master of one, which I can appreciate. [00:18:10] But no, I do it and sink or swim and just keep [00:18:15] trying. And if I fail, there’s a lot of stuff I’ll learn from. And there’s been loads of stuff like, [00:18:20] for example, I’m sure we’ll get on to it. The injuries for a good few months. I [00:18:25] definitely wasn’t the positive person. I wasn’t saying thank God. [00:18:30] I was saying quite the opposite, in fact. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s go through [00:18:35] it. Let’s go through it because it’s very interesting. Uh, as a pro sports guy and injury is a [00:18:40] setback. Yeah. Yeah. Um, at the same time, I’d imagine to be [00:18:45] at the very top of anything, you’re going to have to injure yourself because you’re pushing and pushing and pushing [00:18:50] to yourself to a limit. Yeah. And in trampoline, I don’t know how it works. You’re on a quadruple. [00:18:55] Whatever. Yeah. The first time in your life you’ve never done it before. You’re going to hit your head or hit [00:19:00] your shoulder or whatever it is. Yeah. So there’s that. But the, the parallel [00:19:05] that I’d like to look at is, okay, let’s say dentistry and trampoline. [00:19:10] Yeah. You’ve got an injury in, in, in trampoline. That [00:19:15] equivalent of that in dentistry might be failing an exam or getting sued by a patient [00:19:20] or whatever it is. Um, the thing that I’m really interested in is when, [00:19:25] when that’s happened to me, bad things in dentistry. On top of [00:19:30] the bad thing that’s happened. You’ve got the identity crisis. Yeah. I was [00:19:35] nowhere near the best Olympian dentist in the world. But your identity [00:19:40] is whatever it is. Like it might have been. I’m the best cosmetic dentist in this practice. [00:19:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s my identity that I’ve given myself. Yeah. That I’m proud of. And I’m happy to walk around [00:19:50] with. Yeah. Then I get a complaint from a patient, and the complaint might be a complaint. Might be something [00:19:55] like, you tried to steal money from me. Let’s say something like that. It’s not something that really goes to your [00:20:00] ethics or to your intent rather than your skill even. Yeah. Or you didn’t have the skill to do. [00:20:05] Now, not only I’ve got an unhappy patient that I have to deal with, not [00:20:10] only I’ve got to deal with my career, just, you know, also my whole identity is the best cosmetic [00:20:15] dentist in this practice is now in question. So for you, you must you know, [00:20:20] in gymnastics, your identity is the best trampoline in Manchester. Yeah. That goes [00:20:25] then the best trampoline in the north, then the country, then the Europe. Then you’re [00:20:30] trying to say, I want to be the best champion in the world. Yeah. Tell me about that. Does it does it get to you as [00:20:35] when you injure yourself, when you get a set back? Massively identity wise, [00:20:40] you start questioning yourself massively.

Bashar Alturk: I think identity, [00:20:45] I sort of started, let’s say university and I was an athlete, wasn’t an athlete. I was a [00:20:50] student athlete. Yeah. Student being the first part of it, especially for the first few years of my degree. [00:20:55] And. I remember being three months into my first year, [00:21:00] and I’d completely ruptured all the ligaments in my knee and I was lost [00:21:05] for my whole first year of university, I found it really difficult because I wasn’t this trampoline [00:21:10] sports scholarship sort of athlete that I was at university. I [00:21:15] felt like nobody really very just.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:21:20] first time.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. The first that was the first major injury. When I was [00:21:25] younger, I’d snapped my tib fib, so I was in a wheelchair actually for about six months. Wow. [00:21:30] But whilst you’re young, I don’t think you really appreciate what’s [00:21:35] going on and I find it quite fun. I was in a cast and my friends were signing it, going around school in a wheelchair at [00:21:40] the time. It gave me a lot, a lot of appreciation for people who have to go through that every day. [00:21:45] Massively for my family as well during that period. Because just [00:21:50] on a side note, I guess when you’re injured, it’s not just you mentally as well. Who am I affecting [00:21:55] around me? But the physical side of who’s helping me? Who’s taking me to the bathroom? So [00:22:00] yeah, I got injured in first year and this was the first major injury. Whilst, you know, [00:22:05] I’ve just moved away from home, you know, new life, new school, university, [00:22:10] just just new routine. And it was cut short. I [00:22:15] didn’t know how to deal with myself and it was really hard. I [00:22:20] found it. The only rock I had at the time was my mum and. [00:22:25] And there’d be times at university that. Just not sure what to do with my day. My usual [00:22:30] day would be wake up at six, I’d go to the gym or do some sort of rehab like like prehab sort [00:22:35] of stuff. We’d have university nine till five, sometimes nine till two and straight to the gym. [00:22:40] I’ll drive. Last year my routine was. I’ll drive straight to Sheffield around. We train two till [00:22:45] four and I’d do some schoolwork in between. And I’ll go to the gym in the afternoon and I’ll drive back from Sheffield [00:22:50] around 10:00. Back to bed.

Payman Langroudi: Every day.

Bashar Alturk: Every day, not weekends. [00:22:55] So it was hard to have that ripped away from you. It [00:23:00] was I was not sure what breaking, devastating. I remember being told by the doctor [00:23:05] and I was really lucky at the time, a doctor called Doctor Barkat Ali, an amazing guy. [00:23:10] And I remember being told you’ve ruptured your knee and just [00:23:15] burst out into tears. And for us, we had an experience with another highly [00:23:20] talented athlete. He ruptured also his ligaments in his knee. I’m [00:23:25] not sure if his surgeries weren’t as advanced as they are at that time, but that was it for him and [00:23:30] he tried a lot, and that’s what I thought.

Payman Langroudi: So because he had no idea whether you’d get through it or not. [00:23:35] Right. Actually, when you’re in the moment might be career ending.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. And that’s what I [00:23:40] thought. And, and I almost swore the first time I ruptured my knee. I’m not touching a [00:23:45] trampoline again. That sort of it’s almost all or nothing. And it’s a lot with me in [00:23:50] a lot of stuff. I like to really apply myself. So when I can’t do it, I was like, we’re done. All [00:23:55] my hopes that we’re going are gone. Comes to the second time. Now we’re in [00:24:00] fourth year and I’ve got exams at this point and quite difficult exams. I’ve ruptured the right hand side. [00:24:05]

Payman Langroudi: Same thing on the other side.

Bashar Alturk: On the other side.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Bashar Alturk: Devastating. [00:24:10] A couple of weeks before final exams and fourth year. And I just got to the point where [00:24:15] I felt this is going really well. Now we’re looking to the future. We’re thinking about the next [00:24:20] Olympic cycle. You know, I was doing multiple triples in the routine and the coaches were really [00:24:25] happy. And I think I finally got over the left hand side, just chanced. [00:24:30] I hit just come to the side, hit like a metal pot on a trampoline. So trampoline [00:24:35] is such a fast sport. We have forces six times our [00:24:40] body weight, so that’s the weight that goes through us. More G force and astronaut on takeoff. So any [00:24:45] slight error mistake it’s gone. Um so again having [00:24:50] to pick myself back up during exam season. And the honest answer was I didn’t. [00:24:55] It was just having a really good people, good group of people around me, good friends, [00:25:00] good family, um, which made made the difference. And in time, [00:25:05] you know, we’re a year on from the injury now I’m starting, you know, time heals everything, [00:25:10] whether it’s it’s injuries or life in general. And um, I’ve [00:25:15] now started to train again and really not wanting to push forward. Um, even with [00:25:20] dentistry, um, it happens the same. I think there is a big loss of identity similar [00:25:25] to what you were saying about being a cosmetic dentist. Um, I like to do the best [00:25:30] and that comes from, you know, when I see a patient, especially at university, I found [00:25:35] that I, I over promise sometimes and as a student under deliver and [00:25:40] I found that really hard again and making those mistakes.

Payman Langroudi: Um, you’re listening [00:25:45] you’re going into feet next, right?

Bashar Alturk: That’s correct. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a big mistake of young dentists. [00:25:50] Yeah. That they think that being a dentist is [00:25:55] somewhere where you go, you get seen for 20 minutes or NHS even [00:26:00] less than that. And that you’re expected to give this authoritative answer on the [00:26:05] solution to that problem. Yeah. There and then. And it has to be right and everything. And [00:26:10] what young dentists end up doing is they overconfident? Yeah. Come [00:26:15] across as overconfident. Yeah, I can deal with this. I’m your dentist. I can handle it. They [00:26:20] can’t deal with it. Um, whereas if you think about it, dude, [00:26:25] you’ve been to, you know, top coaches or whatever. Yeah. If you ask your top coach a [00:26:30] question and he says, I don’t know, you kind of respect him a bit more. Yeah, yeah. [00:26:35] Because you know, he he knows what he doesn’t know is a big thing. [00:26:40] Yeah. So never worry about saying I don’t know. And I’m going to ask someone [00:26:45] that question. Yeah. I remember when I was your age, I had a mentor. And every time [00:26:50] I mention the mentor. So I’m going to ask my mentor. That would help. Yeah. With the patient. [00:26:55] Tell me about this. What’s the crux of trampoline? [00:27:00] So I’m guessing there’s some sort of you have to optimise [00:27:05] the bounce from that. What do you call the bit that bounces.

Bashar Alturk: The trampoline bed?

Payman Langroudi: The bed. You have [00:27:10] to you have to optimise that bounce. Yeah. And so so there’s that. Yeah. [00:27:15] Then then you have to. Up in the air. Was it like a visualisation [00:27:20] story? How do you know? Like what’s the difference between a great trampolinist and a good [00:27:25] trampolinist in that sense?

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. So so what? We’re judged off. Yeah. [00:27:30] We’re judged. So trampoline and judged off execution. How neat the elements are [00:27:35] similar to gymnastics and other sports. How difficult the elements are. So the more twists, [00:27:40] there’s more somersaults. Um, and also how high. Um, so there’s a [00:27:45] laser underneath the trampoline that measures how high you can go and the time spent in the air. And [00:27:50] the last one is just keeping it very central, but you.

Payman Langroudi: Have to be very stiff to get the maximum. And then you have to be very supple [00:27:55] to. It’s weird. It’s a really weird, weird.

Bashar Alturk: Athlete profile because [00:28:00] you have to be so fast, but also so powerful and strong, which sometimes [00:28:05] don’t go in. So some of the the Chinese and the Russians that I’ve competed against, they [00:28:10] are, you know, 55 kilos, 58 kilos, whereas I’m more [00:28:15] 82, 83. And so that’s been really hard itself in trampolining. [00:28:20] It’s it’s it’s what makes a good athlete. It’s, it’s the mentality. It’s the honest answer. It’s [00:28:25] the hard work. It’s being able to be injured or, you know, not [00:28:30] do a skill properly and get back up and do it again. It’s the fearlessness, you know, as [00:28:35] kids learning skills. We mentioned it before. We you have [00:28:40] to try skill. You build it up in increments and, and, and it’s what I take from trampolining into dentistry. [00:28:45] And in any life you build, you build a skill, you do one somersault. Okay, now you can [00:28:50] try one and a half, well, one and three quarters and now you can try two. But there’s [00:28:55] times in trampoline where you’ll just lose yourself and you don’t have the vision points. [00:29:00] So if I was to answer your question, build a perfect trampolinist someone who’s really strong, powerful, [00:29:05] very light, but also has a spatial awareness. And I think [00:29:10] that’s think sometimes something that’s gifted rather than worked for. [00:29:15] Um, and you find it funny. I’m actually on the other side [00:29:20] very not spatially aware at all. Really. Yeah. So a lot of the injuries, [00:29:25] actually one of them is I’ve just lost my self up there and you just spin, spin, [00:29:30] spin, spin until you hit the floor at the trampoline bed and you either hit the floor, the trampoline bed, you [00:29:35] don’t know where. Whereas some of my, um, some of the athletes I, um, I train with, they know [00:29:40] exactly where they are in the air and it’s just practice.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. And then mentality [00:29:45] wise. So you said, okay, you get the Chinese 55 kilos and you 82 kilos. Are [00:29:50] there different mentalities that succeed like I think of it in business, right? This, [00:29:55] this, there’s some business people they want, they want the minimum input for the maximum [00:30:00] output. Yeah. And they see the world like that. Yeah. Those are the opportunities they [00:30:05] chase. Yeah. Otherwise you just sit on Dragons Den, right. You’ve got the four. The four of them. And each [00:30:10] of them goes for something and doesn’t go for something different. Are there different mentalities [00:30:15] that end up being this sort of really good at getting up and dusting yourself [00:30:20] off? Yeah. Are they?

Bashar Alturk: I think so. I mean, with anything, it’s it’s you’ve always [00:30:25] got the really talented person who somewhat works hard.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: Guided. [00:30:30] And you have the person who’s has a small amount of talent. You have to have a little bit more talent [00:30:35] I reckon in whatever. And who works really hard. Yeah. There’s there’s those [00:30:40] who work differently. So I think I work very different to [00:30:45] um, the next gymnastics. I like to turn up [00:30:50] on time, but not early for training, which is odd. I like to the [00:30:55] session to be running. I’ll come in, I’ll warm up really quickly and then I’ll work hard. Whereas [00:31:00] if there’s I know some athletes that will roll around for an hour before they get onto [00:31:05] the trampoline, and they like to prepare themselves in that way.

Payman Langroudi: What about on competition [00:31:10] day? How do you keep nerves away? How do you make sure your performance is the best [00:31:15] it’s going to be? I mean, there’s lots of parallels to that, right? I’m going to have to stand up on the stage of [00:31:20] Ministry of Sound and deliver this event. Yeah, I’m going to have some butterflies in my [00:31:25] tummy at that point. Do you do you have strategies for that or is it that you’ve done it so many times? It [00:31:30] becomes a second nature now.

Bashar Alturk: It’s a mixture. And it’s also, I’d [00:31:35] say just the pure thrill, adrenaline and enjoyment excitement. Absolutely. [00:31:40] So quite, you know, on the contrary, [00:31:45] a small competition, which is, you know, a regional national level that, you know, not many spectators. [00:31:50] I’ll get more nervous of there than when we were at the [00:31:55] Asian Games with 32,000 people packed out arena watching cameras [00:32:00] everywhere. So in a normal competition day, you know, I listen to music. Visualise [00:32:05] mirror the routine. I’m going to do it. I’m going to do it. And it’s just a positive self-talk. [00:32:10] Um, on the competition floor, when there’s cameras around you, I thrive. [00:32:15] I love it and I’m almost exhibitionist. Yeah, massively. If [00:32:20] you know, if, if you speak to any of the friends at uni.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really?

Bashar Alturk: That I love [00:32:25] to be, I love to be in the limelight. I’ll enjoy it. And it’s the same with dentistry, like a little bit like [00:32:30] we’ve done BDS a or um, been president at dent SoC last year. Speaking of [00:32:35] stage, I don’t mind it. I do get very nervous though, and it’s just just giving it a [00:32:40] go. And I think my peers would find very odd [00:32:45] that yeah, I do get very nervous. So in a competition competition day, it’s just distraction. [00:32:50] I distract myself with the cameras, wave at them, kiss the badge, um, [00:32:55] and then just visualise a routine and listen to music.

Payman Langroudi: What would you say is the sort [00:33:00] of the biggest downside of being this elite athlete. There [00:33:05] must be the sacrifice, right?

Bashar Alturk: Massively, I [00:33:10] think. I, I don’t believe I had really any proper friendships until Covid [00:33:15] time because my life was trampolining and and we’ve [00:33:20] not mentioned I used to do swimming as well. So I used to have to, you know, from the year [00:33:25] five, if I remember 5 a.m. starts, I’d go swimming before school [00:33:30] at train, go to school, love school, come home, go [00:33:35] to training and then and that’s it. So I think it’s the sacrifice. Sacrifice with time. [00:33:40] You know, from the age of 12, I didn’t go on a family holiday. So [00:33:45] every year we’d go to Jordan and go back home. But because I’d be [00:33:50] major competitions coming up in September, I wouldn’t go away with my family. And that’s really [00:33:55] hard. I found for for a youngster, you know, at the age of 12, just [00:34:00] seeing everyone go away and me and my dad staying behind just just to train. And I think that’s [00:34:05] been the hardest bit about being injured because you expect hard work [00:34:10] to equal success. And it doesn’t it doesn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Dentistry.

Bashar Alturk: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [00:34:15] the interesting difference. I had a guy, uh, Mike grey I don’t know if you heard his pod. He’s like [00:34:20] number 42. Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: And the bikes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Bicycle in the world. Yeah. And he was saying number 42 [00:34:25] in the world just doesn’t get you anywhere. Like financially, it’s like you basically pays for your flights. [00:34:30] Yeah. Um, but he was saying in dentistry, the more effort you put in, [00:34:35] the more you get out of it. Yeah. Whereas in, in bicycle he said somewhat, but it was more a mental [00:34:40] game. Okay. Yeah. Uh, he was also a musician. Yeah. And he was singing. Music has [00:34:45] nothing to do with the amount of effort. I mean, of course there’s effort, but, you know, it’s who you know and, and you know what [00:34:50] trends and you can put loads of effort in and not get out. Yeah. Like you’re saying. Yeah. [00:34:55] Um, I also remember Annie Seaborne. Do you know her?

Bashar Alturk: Yes. [00:35:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. Um sports dentists as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So she was doing lacrosse for [00:35:05] Wales. Yeah. And then had an injury at the same time as finals, uh [00:35:10] dentistry finals. And she said to me, I didn’t give a damn if I didn’t become a dentist. [00:35:15] That injury that didn’t take me to the Olympics was much, much bigger for me than, you know, she was that obsessed [00:35:20] by it. But then that’s what happened. Yeah. And do you know Robbie Hughes? [00:35:25] No.

Bashar Alturk: No. Oh no. Oh no. Oh yes. Yes. Liverpool. [00:35:30] Yeah. Of course. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So he was a pro kickboxer.

Bashar Alturk: I didn’t know that for years. [00:35:35]

Payman Langroudi: Years and years and years. Wow. Um again travelled all over the world and he [00:35:40] was talking about the reason why he’s doing what he’s doing now, which is you can see [00:35:45] he’s very busy with avant garde dentistry and all that is he’s got this thing drilled [00:35:50] into him from childhood that you’ve got to live up to your potential, which is a very interesting [00:35:55] way of looking at something, you know, why would you work so hard at a business. Is it [00:36:00] the you know, is it is it the Rolex you’re trying to buy or whatever? You’ll soon find out once you’ve got that Rolex [00:36:05] is a total waste of time. Yeah. Like honestly, like even [00:36:10] I’ve got a friend who just bought himself Pagani. Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: And he said after about three weeks [00:36:15] he’s bought of of that.

Bashar Alturk: It wears off.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. The stuff doesn’t do it. [00:36:20] Then you say okay, experiences, you know, then there’s this other piece that’s like [00:36:25] a little like almost like a missing part of you that you’re trying to fill.

Bashar Alturk: Which [00:36:30] is no way.

Payman Langroudi: That you’re trying to fill you. And whether you call that your [00:36:35] ambition, your living up to your potential. Like maybe when you were a kid, [00:36:40] someone said, you’ll never be. That’s that little bit sometimes. Yeah. Even someone like someone [00:36:45] who adores you, like your mother could have said something to you that can that can create this little void. [00:36:50] You know, you don’t do it on purpose. Sometimes. Often by mistake. Yeah. Um, so [00:36:55] okay. You’re now going to do dentistry and [00:37:00] you’re right at the beginning. Do you remember? Did you do you sort of think, oh, I’m not [00:37:05] very good at this yet? You’re not whatever you want to think. You’re not very. Yeah. And do you remember what it was [00:37:10] like to be not very good at trampolining? And you’re kind of mirroring. You’re thinking I will be the best in the world. [00:37:15] Are you? What? Do you want to be a dentist? Do you want to be Olympic level?

Bashar Alturk: Yes. Do you? Yeah, absolutely. [00:37:20] You know, I love the business side of dentistry and I’m very interested in that side. Yeah. [00:37:25] But I really love the clinical side. And I know my experience is university [00:37:30] level. I’m very appreciative. I can turn around and we have I have two tutors. We see four patients [00:37:35] a day. I know it’s going to be very different next year, but I absolutely [00:37:40] adore it. And I think it’s I think it’s just the same as sport. You like you said, the harder [00:37:45] you work, the better you get at it. There’s so many avenues you can take. Yeah, you can beat this person. You need [00:37:50] to be better. You’re always evolving. You’re always learning. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But I don’t want to be. I [00:37:55] don’t want to be the fly in your ointment or the saliva on your etched enamel or whatever. Yeah, but. [00:38:00]

Bashar Alturk: Neither.

Payman Langroudi: But but but and I understand [00:38:05] why, you know, you got to this stage in, in gymnastics by being this. [00:38:10] So now, you know, it comes naturally to do the same thing in dentistry. But the [00:38:15] fact you told me that you didn’t have any real friendships by being that obsessive [00:38:20] cat, do you not think maybe there’s, there’s an idea that you don’t need to be an Olympic dentist? You can be, [00:38:25] you know, county level dentist. Yeah. And by the way, you don’t need [00:38:30] to be number three in the world in dentistry, if you were number 37 in the [00:38:35] UK, you’re amazing. You’re on fire. Yeah, yeah. So do [00:38:40] you not think maybe there’s an evolutionary like if you look back and say, okay, I had all these injuries. No [00:38:45] friends. Yeah, okay. I got to this level and I loved it. Yeah, yeah. Do you think [00:38:50] maybe in dentistry don’t follow that same playbook.

Bashar Alturk: I think I’ve learned a lot. [00:38:55] I think so. Um, I think one take thing I take from it from the [00:39:00] sport and.

Payman Langroudi: Take.

Bashar Alturk: The best bits, take the best bits, but also just to work hard. But [00:39:05] I do see what you’re saying in, in the fact that there is more to [00:39:10] life than just working hard away. And [00:39:15] I think I’ve tried to implement it. Implement that. I’m a big believer that everything happens [00:39:20] for a reason. So for example, when I got injured, I, I was like, [00:39:25] well, what do I do now? And I think the, the core group of friends I have at uni now, and [00:39:30] I think knowing everyone on, you know, a big thing I pride myself is just knowing everyone [00:39:35] on the course. It’s a small course, just making a connection with everyone. I don’t think I would have been able [00:39:40] to do that if I was training full time. So answering the question, [00:39:45] I think. So I think there’s a lot of lessons I’ve learned at uni that I’d want to [00:39:50] take them back with me and being the best I can be, but also not [00:39:55] forgetting what life’s about. And I have two very, very [00:40:00] successful uncles. However, they’re not married and that’s a big [00:40:05] thing of mine. And so going on to what.

Payman Langroudi: Was a big thing of.

Bashar Alturk: Yours, as in, you can be as successful [00:40:10] as you want. I’m very aware you can have the nice Rolex, you can have the amazing Ferrari. But [00:40:15] for me, real success genuinely is having that nice [00:40:20] like a cool family. And I think you can work as hard as you want for [00:40:25] success. And I hope this doesn’t come across in the wrong way. And I really [00:40:30] believe one day I will be successful. But I think and.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s called ambition, [00:40:35] right?

Bashar Alturk: Thank you. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But but do you see the fact that they’re not married as failure. Yeah. [00:40:40] And that’s maybe that’s their choice or is it not their choice.

Bashar Alturk: I’m not sure. [00:40:45] Um again I think it is their choice. It is their choice I think. So I think, I think Yeah, [00:40:50] in a sense, but it’s just not the life I want to live. But then I’m not sure. Can [00:40:55] you work hard for that side of life? Can you can put yourself out [00:41:00] there. But I think true success, and it is very cliche is genuinely just having that family [00:41:05] and having, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But listen, let’s imagine you let’s say you do run the same playbook, [00:41:10] okay, in dentistry as you ran in gymnastics, now you’ve got a wife and two kids. Yeah. [00:41:15] And you’re completely ignoring them. You’re not, you’re not with them at the weekends. Yeah. Because you’re obsessed. [00:41:20] Yeah. One weekend you’re off at Frank spear. And, you know, in America next weekend [00:41:25] you’ve come to Ministry of Sound next next weekend, you know, you know what I mean? Yeah. Enlightened. It’s very [00:41:30] at the beginning, very easy to to lose your family. I wasn’t with my [00:41:35] kids much at all. Yeah. In the first ten years of, of, of enlighten, um, [00:41:40] sometimes there’s like a, I’ll do this now so that later I can [00:41:45] take my kids to the moon. Sometimes there’s that move. Yeah, yeah, I get that. Yeah. [00:41:50] But when you you said a couple of things that interest me. Number one, you said I think everything happens [00:41:55] for a reason why. I mean, it plays to that question. [00:42:00] If you take your lemons and turn them into lemonade.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But is it just a belief? [00:42:05] Is it like the best way to live your life? Why does everything happen for a reason? In the past you’ve noticed [00:42:10] it.

Bashar Alturk: I think I’ve noticed it in the past. It’s a belief that’s instilled [00:42:15] in us, in religion, but with anything religion. Personally, for myself, it’s [00:42:20] what do I take from and what do I learn from it? Um, and I’ve found [00:42:25] that, for example, when I injured my first knee, I was down [00:42:30] for a good amount of time. Or what I believe to be is down and I couldn’t [00:42:35] see a reason why. But the. And I hated it and I was angry at the world. [00:42:40] I was angry at everything.

Payman Langroudi: Why did this happen to me?

Bashar Alturk: Why does this happen to me? There’s [00:42:45] no one looking out for me, it’s it’s everything bad happens to me all the time.

Payman Langroudi: Did you think [00:42:50] there was a God looking out for you? Yes, [00:42:55] grandma or something. It’s like some people think that way. Um.

Bashar Alturk: I [00:43:00] believe you make your own luck. So I think it [00:43:05] looking out for me. Yes, but I don’t think I really [00:43:10] understood the what that meant. But [00:43:15] until only until recently, if you asked me the honest answer, I probably still don’t understand [00:43:20] it completely. But you know, if I wasn’t in, if I didn’t get injured, [00:43:25] I wouldn’t have. I don’t think I would have focussed as much into my dentistry at the time. I don’t wouldn’t have met the friends. I wouldn’t have [00:43:30] gone out with people.

Payman Langroudi: Give me this, give me this. Yeah, it’s a, it’s a bit it’s a bit deep. [00:43:35] There’s, there’s, you’ve, you said you had some Palestinian ancestry, your [00:43:40] parents even. Right. Yeah. Um, there’s a kid bomb dropped on his head today And [00:43:45] he’s three years. Three days old. Was there a God looking out for him for that kid? Like, what was God doing in that [00:43:50] moment? Was it was it something like showing you to, you know, that kid didn’t have [00:43:55] what you’ve got, so you go get it. Kind of. Was that the move? If [00:44:00] it is that.

Bashar Alturk: From my perspective.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: I think it’s very hard. It’s very [00:44:05] hard. You know, a child dying or anything bad happening in someone’s life, the belief [00:44:10] is or belief that’s instilled in us that the good will come [00:44:15] from that in a point of view that because you’ve witnessed that, or [00:44:20] for that parent who’s, you know, who’s lost their child, there’ll be a place in heaven for them. There’s [00:44:25] always a reason to that happening from, from, [00:44:30] you know, I think whether you’re religious or not, it’s, it’s a journey and it’s a journey [00:44:35] of belief, man. That’s hard. And even as a, as a religious person, I can sit here and [00:44:40] say, if that happened to me.

Payman Langroudi: I get it. You could say to me, listen, don’t even be so presumptuous [00:44:45] to understand what God is thinking.

Payman Langroudi: No no no no no no no.

Payman Langroudi: It’s real. Right? If God is this, you know, completely [00:44:50] all powerful thing. But who am I to ask? I get that right. I get that. Um, [00:44:55] that that that’s certainly one thing. And you could say, oh, that child’s going straight to heaven type [00:45:00] stuff. Yeah, I get that. Um, what is your faith [00:45:05] being most tested? Was it during the NE period?

Bashar Alturk: Yeah, I’d say so. [00:45:10] Definitely during the NE period to be honest. Anything [00:45:15] that’s, you know, been in my world severely bad. Um, yeah. [00:45:20] Especially during the period I was just didn’t understand why. [00:45:25] And I don’t think and at times I would blame life. [00:45:30] Sometimes God and I speak with my parents and I’d look deeper into [00:45:35] it. And it’s a journey in that sense. And I think [00:45:40] none of us can really understand why. And I say the why, even just the beauty [00:45:45] that I got to make friends. I don’t need to find a really deep, meaningful. But that was [00:45:50] also because I’ve recovered from it and there was good that came out from it, for [00:45:55] that child, for that mother or father who lost their child, maybe I’d be saying [00:46:00] something different. And that’s the honest answer, is that I don’t know this.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know as beautiful [00:46:05] in situations where you can’t prove it. Yeah, that’s and faith is like that. Yeah, yeah. [00:46:10] You don’t even need to say anything else other than you don’t know. Yeah. You know, it’s [00:46:15] your intent. That’s the most important thing. If your intent is pure, you’re [00:46:20] trying to be a good person. That’s the key point. Yeah. Let’s talk [00:46:25] about you. Tell me you have a phantom head in your student room. Go [00:46:30] on. That’s the first time I’ve heard that. Where who came up with that idea? Was that you? [00:46:35] Yeah. Does anyone else have a phantom head? Does anyone else I should ask the audience.

Bashar Alturk: Not [00:46:40] that I know of at the moment. Um, it’s such.

Payman Langroudi: A cool idea. And [00:46:45] a drill. An electric drill.

Bashar Alturk: Everything. So so Micromotor electric [00:46:50] handpiece. Um, multiple like models. Phantom head pieces. [00:46:55] Composite.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant idea man. Everything I’m gonna tell my daughter wants to be [00:47:00] a dentist now. Yeah. So I’m gonna tell her that’s what she has to do.

Bashar Alturk: I’ll show you where we got it from.

Payman Langroudi: That one. Well. [00:47:05]

Bashar Alturk: Actually, I know, on the contrary, a lot of it’s from China.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [00:47:10] yeah. Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: And and it would be a, uh, a physical model from China. [00:47:15] So all Nissan model from China.

Payman Langroudi: So go on, go on, go on. What what point in the Dental course did you [00:47:20] get a phantom head into your room?

Bashar Alturk: It was midway through third year or start of third year. We started to [00:47:25] see patients. And again with the trampoline. I want to practice more. But school, you can’t [00:47:30] go practice more. And I remember I went on to the clinics. I grabbed myself a phantom head. I [00:47:35] tried to practice. I got into trouble. Obviously not supervised. Um, they [00:47:40] weren’t, they weren’t happy. But I got a slap on the wrist and just said, you can’t do that. [00:47:45] I think in school they’re big on making it an equal playing field. If I’m [00:47:50] going to get five hours of practice time, he also has to get five hours in heel. So I wanted to take matters [00:47:55] into my own hand. So I researched how much then Phantom Head Unit was originally, [00:48:00] and then they can go for thousands. So back to the drawing board. Um, [00:48:05] and I looked online at, you know, like warehouses, China and I thought, okay, [00:48:10] and I just found it all there. And I got myself into a loophole of buying [00:48:15] everything and everything from like at the time, sexual [00:48:20] matrices. And I didn’t know what sexual matrix was. So but having it there made me [00:48:25] learn. Um, so yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is this how you got into the loops business as well? Yeah. [00:48:30] So you started a loops company.

Bashar Alturk: That’s correct.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Were you inspired by Bryant?

Bashar Alturk: Massively.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve [00:48:35] just had them on the pod actually. No way. Yeah. So that’s coming out. So go on. So. So suddenly you’re [00:48:40] looking at China, you’re finding all this cheap dental stuff and you’re thinking I’m going to start a company. [00:48:45]

Bashar Alturk: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: And how far did you get with that?

Bashar Alturk: We did really well, [00:48:50] to be fair. At the time I think we sold.

Payman Langroudi: The.

Bashar Alturk: Two. I’d like to say it was me and [00:48:55] two other friends at the time. So, um, a boy that I lived with, um and another boy who did, [00:49:00] um and um he did law and good friends of mine and [00:49:05] I knew I was going to fourth year of dental school. I was the president of the society at the time. I [00:49:10] was doing the BDS, I was doing sport. I was like, I like the idea, but I’m not [00:49:15] going to be able to execute it alone. And I think with everything in sport, it’s it’s having a good team. And [00:49:20] I saw the way that some of the other companies had set up. So I know Brian was set [00:49:25] up by student by Connor Bryant at the time. Um, not the time by Connor Bryant who set up set it [00:49:30] up when he was a student at the time, and other companies also. Um. Well, [00:49:35] why can’t we set up some sort of research where some companies [00:49:40] buy their, um their loops from or um and where they’re [00:49:45] getting the materials. Um and yeah, I’ve searched them and found China.

Payman Langroudi: Um [00:49:50] and did you, did you have this thing that was your, what was the positioning of your loop compared [00:49:55] to other loops?

Bashar Alturk: Student student price. We were.

Payman Langroudi: Price.

Bashar Alturk: Price [00:50:00] point. That was our USP. We sold five x refractive loops. And the idea is [00:50:05] hopefully to continue that on. It was called Dental Optics Co, and it was to provide [00:50:10] a price point where students could afford loops. Massive believer in loops. Again [00:50:15] it’s it’s with that sport just wanting the best of the best. Yeah. I think it’s impossible. [00:50:20]

Payman Langroudi: Did you do research. Sorry. What is the current cheapest loop on the market.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. So I mean originally.

Payman Langroudi: You undercut that [00:50:25] guy.

Bashar Alturk: Um yeah. Massively.

Payman Langroudi: Um but then didn’t you think that the next guy will come and undercut [00:50:30] me. No it wasn’t just didn’t run through time.

Bashar Alturk: So hours were self adjustable, [00:50:35] so we weren’t making them through the loop through the lens. So there wasn’t a manufacturing process tailored to the [00:50:40] student. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so take me through your thinking. Were you at every point being super like [00:50:45] frugal to make sure that this is the cheapest way that anyone in their right mind would try and sell [00:50:50] it? Yeah. Like it’s kind of the prem way, you know, the boutique way. Yeah. Yeah. The [00:50:55] price he’s selling it at is difficult to sell less than that price. Yes. His his [00:51:00] product. Yeah. I mean, but lots of people have.

Bashar Alturk: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Lots of people have. And [00:51:05] the important thing to understand is price can’t be the only thing factor. [00:51:10] Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: And I learned a lot. It was a lesson that was learned. And I think with loops, [00:51:15] that comes not just the sale of the loops, but the aftercare. And it’s something I learned after. [00:51:20] Yes, I might be selling loop for X amount. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: How much are you selling them for?

Bashar Alturk: Um, £350 [00:51:25] at a time.

Payman Langroudi: How much are you buying them for?

Bashar Alturk: Um a hundred. Um [00:51:30] about a 100 and bulk sale in the end.

Payman Langroudi: Landed.

Bashar Alturk: Landed.

Payman Langroudi: 100. [00:51:35] Landed. Yeah. And you were saying for 350.

Bashar Alturk: And at the time. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not bad.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. And it was, there [00:51:40] was there was.

Payman Langroudi: Not so many of them to make any money.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. We, we, we didn’t at the time. We, [00:51:45] we sold loads.

Payman Langroudi: Who was your first customer people in your year.

Bashar Alturk: No, actually it was through [00:51:50] Shopify. Shopify online. We were selling to.

Payman Langroudi: The.

Bashar Alturk: Area. We were selling a website [00:51:55] and they were selling it to around. So it was um Bulgaria. Um, at [00:52:00] first.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and what about stuff like the person buying it from your website? Yeah. [00:52:05] Did you have your own brand name on it or did you.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. So we [00:52:10] had our.

Payman Langroudi: Own Dental optics.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. These were the loops that I was using in clinics. So I believed in [00:52:15] them. So I, the whole original story happened was I wanted a pair of loops. I couldn’t afford a pair of loops [00:52:20] at the time.

Payman Langroudi: Alibaba.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah, exactly. I tried to find a solution that was purely. [00:52:25] We bought the loops. At first. A lot of students buy. I thought, well, oh no, I want refractive loops. [00:52:30] But at the time I didn’t want to spend the money on refractive loops. So research for myself. I [00:52:35] used them for a year, loved them. And I thought, well, if I’m using them, why can’t everyone else use.

Payman Langroudi: The refractive [00:52:40] as well?

Bashar Alturk: They were refractive and that was the whole point. So I was using them and I loved them. So I thought, [00:52:45] let’s start. Yeah. And so we sold online. They would get the whole branding. [00:52:50] It was it was branded in a box with the logo name. They could get their name customised on it. [00:52:55] Um, it was on loops, the branding, and then it’d be a video and we had the returns process [00:53:00] and period. There was a video that would teach them how to adjust the loops if they had.

Payman Langroudi: You made.

Bashar Alturk: That [00:53:05] we made and if they needed any help, um, then they would contact us with the other students. [00:53:10] Not not so much. And then when we start to sell, we sold a few in our year. Um, [00:53:15] and it was through that that was hard. I mean, that was another lesson I looked, I learned [00:53:20] from the loops was not just the aftercare, but within dentistry, working [00:53:25] with friends and selling to friends.

Payman Langroudi: I still find that hard.

Bashar Alturk: Difficult and [00:53:30] even a lesson I’ve learned. Treatment. On on on a on on a family [00:53:35] friend or someone you know. It’s hard.

Payman Langroudi: It’s hard. Yeah. Definitely harder than a real patient.

Bashar Alturk: Massively. [00:53:40] And it’s throughout that.

Payman Langroudi: I guess just to give me an example, give [00:53:45] me an example. You sold one to someone in your year. Yeah. He wasn’t 100% happy. It kind of affected the [00:53:50] friendship kind of thing.

Bashar Alturk: No, to be honest with with the boy, at first it was perfect. Um, [00:53:55] and yeah, it was fine. It’s the unease of it, though. [00:54:00] Yeah. It’s it’s the most transactional. The pressure on me, I felt to [00:54:05] make sure they were good. I text him like every two weeks, like, how are you getting on [00:54:10] with him? Are you okay with them? How are they doing? And I think for first, like 150 [00:54:15] days, I was very nervous just. And it’s the same. I’ve [00:54:20] done loads of stuff. I used to sell cars, um, during university. Really? Yeah. So I’d [00:54:25] buy cars on line and I’d get them fixed up and I’d send them on for a profit. And [00:54:30] I remember I sold one of my friends an Audi A3 at the time, um, [00:54:35] at the time his father had passed away and he got a lump sum of money and he wants to buy a car. So [00:54:40] we sold him a car almost two years. I was nervous every time [00:54:45] like the MOT would go through because electronics are cars, a car, customers [00:54:50] are customers. The issues are going to arise. It’s making sure it doesn’t [00:54:55] affect the friendship and it’s definitely lessons learned. I try to avoid it. Um, the car [00:55:00] was perfect, thank God, but I didn’t know that I did did my best to make sure it was good, but anything [00:55:05] can break at any point.

Payman Langroudi: And it also it goes to your mindset around sort of complaints [00:55:10] if you like, like, for instance, in our business, you know, the toothpaste part of our [00:55:15] business, there’s no way you can sell thousands, hundreds of thousands of [00:55:20] tubes of toothpaste without someone. Or Let’s [00:55:25] say you sell 100,000 tubes and a hundred people complain. Yeah, [00:55:30] that’s 1 in 1000 people complaining. Yeah. It’s nothing. It’s irrelevant. Yeah. [00:55:35] But in our other business, the the Dental business that we’re selling to [00:55:40] dentists, one complaint ruins our day completely ruins everyone’s day. Enlightened. And [00:55:45] and people, we’ve changed whole processes because of one complaint all [00:55:50] the time for the last 25 years. It’s like it’s one of our superpowers that we keep on getting better and [00:55:55] better and better. But if if your mindset in the toothpaste business is [00:56:00] that one complaint is going to break your heart, you’re not going to you’re not going to do that business because you know, it’s [00:56:05] that’s the way it goes. Yeah. Yeah. And then some people will take that to another extreme, you [00:56:10] know, they’ll say total crap. Yeah. Total crap. Yeah. You know what it’s like online? [00:56:15] Shopify, right? You make a promise, a photo of something that you’re not even going to send them. [00:56:20] Don’t deliver it and they don’t care. Yeah. So yeah, it depends on what your mindset is. Um, [00:56:25] and it sounds like you really want to do well for people that you sell something to.

Bashar Alturk: Yes. [00:56:30]

Payman Langroudi: Indeed.

Bashar Alturk: And I found that being really hard.

Payman Langroudi: How do you feel about delegation? [00:56:35] Because sometimes that control freak nature [00:56:40] means you can’t delegate. Have you ever had to delegate? You must have been a. [00:56:45] Yeah, you were delegating all the time, right?

Bashar Alturk: Pdsa conference Dental the [00:56:50] Dental Society.

Payman Langroudi: What have you learned about delegation?

Bashar Alturk: Massive. Massive. Massive [00:56:55] amount. I’d say at first being dance president or even with PDSA, I was [00:57:00] very nice to people and that was hard. I think there’s a line that has to be [00:57:05] drawn where something has to be done. So for example, I think [00:57:10] dental societies, especially the way the way they’re run now, or even PDSA, they turn out the turnovers, [00:57:15] ridiculous of of money coming in from sponsors. It’s a [00:57:20] business more than a society. Um.

Payman Langroudi: You know, the one in Leeds was [00:57:25] the biggest Dental conference I’d ever been to. Wow. Yeah. I mean, I’ve been to [00:57:30] loads of Dental conferences, 25 years of Dental conferences. It was the biggest one I’ve ever been to. And the fact [00:57:35] the students pulled that off, it sort of gave me the warm and fuzzies, you [00:57:40] know? And by the way, a lot of it didn’t. But but but yeah, all events are like that. Yeah. [00:57:45] Yeah. Every, like every wedding, something goes wrong. Yeah. You know, in Arab weddings, they have this thing where they throw [00:57:50] the doves into the air.

Bashar Alturk: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. We. I got married in Beirut, and we threw the doves into the [00:57:55] air, and they just dropped on the ground. They didn’t fly.

Bashar Alturk: To [00:58:00] make you nervous.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, well, the wedding, I don’t care, but. But one [00:58:05] of the family was like, that’s a really bad omen. You have to do something now. No [00:58:10] way.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah, but you laughed with it.

Payman Langroudi: I was cool, I was cool with it, I was cool. I’ve got that [00:58:15] sort of superstitious about doves flying. Yeah. But. Okay. Delegation.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. [00:58:20] Hard.

Payman Langroudi: You decided not to be such a nice guy, then?

Bashar Alturk: No, it took me.

Payman Langroudi: But doesn’t come naturally [00:58:25] to you. Not to be a nice guy.

Bashar Alturk: No. And it took me halfway through. I remember through presidency, and [00:58:30] there was things that was going wrong, and I sort of sat down and looked and I said, no, things have to go. [00:58:35] You have to be harsh sometimes. And I never understood it. I’ve worked I’ve worked for people before. [00:58:40] I’ve worked as a coach, and at times I’d watch stuff. And he’s quite harsh [00:58:45] on that person, or he’s let that person go and I’m really unsure why. So what did I learn? [00:58:50] I have to make everyone accountable. [00:58:55] If there’s a deadline set, no matter who that person is, the deadline is set. [00:59:00] The job has to be done by that point. Not to overtake everything as well, because there’ll [00:59:05] be times something’s not done.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll just do it myself.

Bashar Alturk: I’ll just do it myself. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So those two points are really [00:59:10] good points. Yeah. Your first one about having to be harsh. I get it if you’re a complete [00:59:15] doormat. Yeah. Yeah. And by the way, TSA like running something like [00:59:20] PDSA. Whenever I talk to students who are thinking about doing this sort of thing, I tell them 100%, do [00:59:25] it for the learnings. Yeah. The fact that those people are volunteers, they’re not employees. [00:59:30] Yes. Yeah. In a way, you haven’t got authority to tell them to do something. Yeah. [00:59:35] And and if you piss them off, they’ll just stop doing that thing altogether. Just walk out.

Bashar Alturk: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Employees [00:59:40] don’t really walk out unless you really piss them off big time. Yeah. So it’s a different you know, it’s a [00:59:45] harder thing than running a business in a way, because everyone’s kind of. On the other hand, there’s the sort [00:59:50] of purpose led part of it. Yeah. Yeah. And purpose is gigantic. [00:59:55] Yeah. Like if we’re all in it together, I don’t know, you know. Dentinal tubules.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: They’re [01:00:00] all in it together, man. It’s a massive, like thing. It’s like you [01:00:05] can you can reduce things down, can’t you? You can say, what does enlightened even do? Man, it [01:00:10] makes rich people’s teeth whiter.

Bashar Alturk: No.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You could you could be reductive about it. Or [01:00:15] you can go a different direction. You can say, oh, the amount of joy if you whatever. You [01:00:20] know what I mean? Like the cumulative joy that enlightens brought into the world by making yeah, the humans [01:00:25] teeth or whatever smiles love all of that. Exactly. But when you’re [01:00:30] dealing with these students, it’s a funny thing, you know, uh, what [01:00:35] you said is brilliant. The thing about delegating and keeping people accountable. Unfortunately, [01:00:40] people like me and you, ADHD types. Yeah. Aren’t good at that second piece. Yeah. [01:00:45] We’re not good at keeping ourselves accountable, let alone keeping other people accountable. So did you find a technique [01:00:50] or tactics that you write everything down? Yeah. Like simple stuff [01:00:55] like that doesn’t come, come, come naturally to ADHD. No.

Bashar Alturk: It [01:01:00] was really hard. I had a great team as well behind me. And it’s again, it’s just [01:01:05] those who were around me. And the honest answer is no, I don’t think I found a tactic at the time, but I just [01:01:10] learned a lot.

Payman Langroudi: You should do.

Bashar Alturk: This. This should be done. So then I’d speak to someone else, and can [01:01:15] we make sure that this is also done at this point? And then make sure just, just conversation communication. And [01:01:20] I think that’s the massive power trait of ADHD is being able to effectively [01:01:25] just communicate with people. I found that, so it’s that side. But I [01:01:30] think with all of it, whether it was the essay or the lessons learned, it’s that sink or swim, again, [01:01:35] we made mistakes, a lot of mistakes, but sort of learned [01:01:40] from them. The same with the loops business. We made loads of mistakes in that business that I can take on to the next one. Um, [01:01:45] and I know that again, my personal belief is you need a team with you and around [01:01:50] you to help. If I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Know, it’s so interesting when you’ve been involved in a few things like you’ve [01:01:55] been involved in, then you go to a Zara. Yeah. And [01:02:00] in Zara, if you’ve been involved in a few things, you start paying attention, you know, like what’s [01:02:05] the staff situation here? Like, why do they do this lighting design here? [01:02:10] Or it’s very easy just to walk in as a consumer and look at a shirt. Yeah. And I’ve [01:02:15] noticed here, people who haven’t been involved in events have no idea [01:02:20] what it takes. Even like someone very close to me who who should know [01:02:25] better. Yeah. Don’t understand at all. Yeah. Like the risk. Yeah. [01:02:30] The risk in every direction. Right. You know, there’s financial risk. There’s reputational risk. [01:02:35] There’s risk of disaster. Things going wrong, people not turning up. [01:02:40] All of that sort of thing that go go through it. For someone who’s [01:02:45] never done an event like your PDSA, what were the moving parts? Venue sponsored [01:02:50] one. There’s loads to it. There’s loads.

Bashar Alturk: Even. Let’s say something as amazing as this. They bring [01:02:55] it right back down to a Dental school ball.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. It’s incredible. Our Dental [01:03:00] ball ball cost us £23,000 as a student society. That’s. That’s money. It’s [01:03:05] incredible.

Payman Langroudi: It must be much more than that.

Bashar Alturk: It was a lot more.

Payman Langroudi: I must have been at least 100 over. [01:03:10]

Bashar Alturk: I mean, from ticket sales, you at least, you know, if you have 1000 students and you’re way [01:03:15] over over. Um, and I know even Liverpool this year did an amazing [01:03:20] job.

Payman Langroudi: Big, big.

Bashar Alturk: Event. They did even more, uh, numbers. Um, and these guys all were [01:03:25] all friends and they’ve, they’ve all done amazing.

Payman Langroudi: So with various elements, for someone who doesn’t understand what [01:03:30] events are.

Bashar Alturk: She needs sponsors. First of all, you need a venue, you need to place it somewhere. [01:03:35] You need people to attend. You need ticket sales where you want.

Payman Langroudi: Ticket ting, ticketing. [01:03:40]

Bashar Alturk: Ticketing. Where are you going to sell the tickets? You need a platform to sell the tickets. On what commission are they [01:03:45] going to take? How much is the event going to cost us? What’s the upfront cost? Sponsors.

Payman Langroudi: Uh cash [01:03:50] flow right. Cash flow is gigantic.

Bashar Alturk: Because you start from a pot of almost zero, pretty [01:03:55] much especially for like dent SoC. And I guess like BSA, you’ll have a small [01:04:00] budget to try and secure a deposit for a venue, but that’s it. And [01:04:05] to try and build something from the ground is, is, is incredibly difficult and [01:04:10] at times I’ve not been the best at it. And there’s people who have learned from who are, you know, who are, I’d [01:04:15] say, okay, yeah, I like how you’ve done that. I take it from it.

Payman Langroudi: And then I kind of took over [01:04:20] from you. Yeah. And I remember pastor telling me the water bill was like £1,000. [01:04:25] Yeah, yeah. For bottles of water. Yeah. Let alone bits of [01:04:30] furniture.

Bashar Alturk: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Tech. Tech. Yeah. Like those [01:04:35] screens you had.

Bashar Alturk: I remember that itself was, I think planning it [01:04:40] like 4050.

Payman Langroudi: For the tech.

Bashar Alturk: Piece. I’m pretty sure. Yeah, I remember [01:04:45] and then going yeah, so massive great friend of mine. And the way he sees stuff [01:04:50] sometimes compared to the way I see something completely different. And, and you learn [01:04:55] from, from it. So I’ve learned so much from pastor.

Payman Langroudi: I massively impressed by that.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. [01:05:00]

Payman Langroudi: And that’s how he keeps himself so calm. Yeah. Um, for, for a child [01:05:05] that’s not a bad man. Yeah. Not bad.

Bashar Alturk: So much props. We’ve had our graduation [01:05:10] ball, this, this that went over and um, at the weekend and the level [01:05:15] of detail. I even said.

Payman Langroudi: How did he do.

Bashar Alturk: That? Yeah, I even said, I said I wouldn’t have [01:05:20] been able to do this level of detail, but I think it’s fine. I think it comes back from going back to [01:05:25] sport and everything. I’m not going to be the best at everything, but learning [01:05:30] from those, I surround yourself with those who are good. You know, I’ve learned so much from from other people and, [01:05:35] and yeah, so, um, parson did like the latter half of the BSA and an [01:05:40] incredible job. Um and we learnt so much from that, that [01:05:45] process itself and yeah, it was good.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s go on to if [01:05:50] everything goes your way, who would you like to be in ten years time in dentistry? [01:05:55] Because you told me you love business. Yeah. You told me you kind [01:06:00] of like drilling teeth and stuff too. Yeah. Are you thinking, [01:06:05] what 50 practices guy? Or are you thinking like more like our [01:06:10] thing selling to dentists, selling to the what? Have you got any thoughts?

Bashar Alturk: Are [01:06:15] specialising not [01:06:20] sure about specialising. I think the goals I’ve set for myself and [01:06:25] I love the idea of reaching for the stars. Or is it aim for the moon and you [01:06:30] landing the stars and so yeah, I’d love to have a corporate is is the answer. [01:06:35] I’d love to have as many practices as possible. And that in itself is pretty difficult. [01:06:40]

Payman Langroudi: What is it about as many practices as possible that turns you on? Is it brand [01:06:45] recognition kind of story?

Bashar Alturk: Yeah, I think that’s part of that. But [01:06:50] then again, there’s quality and there’s quantity, and there’s the debate between those.

Payman Langroudi: Is [01:06:55] it like, mum, I’ve made it kind of story?

Bashar Alturk: Definitely. That’s massive part really. Yeah, [01:07:00] massively. Mum sacrificed everything for us. Absolutely everything. So to be able [01:07:05] to show her anything of it. So like, I can’t wait to get my first paycheque and [01:07:10] do this thing of just handing it over. It’s, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: About the multiple [01:07:15] practices. Why does that turn you on?

Bashar Alturk: Just success. I think it’s always been I think [01:07:20] it does delve down to sport. And we were discussing all those really high, successful, high performing [01:07:25] people in dentistry. And maybe there is a void. I’m not sure. I’m not sure, but I want [01:07:30] to be the best. And why so.

Payman Langroudi: Many? But let me explain something to you. Like one of my dental [01:07:35] heroes, Andrew Darwood. Yeah. Uh, I mean, he’s massively [01:07:40] successful. There’s no there’s no success problem. Okay. There. He’s massively successful. [01:07:45] Um, he’s got one. I’m sure he’s got a few. He’s [01:07:50] got other, other, many, many other assets I’m sure. Yeah, yeah. But one extraordinary [01:07:55] 17 chair specialist centre in the West [01:08:00] End. One. Yeah. Yeah. And and his point of view [01:08:05] is it’s impossible to do two like this. Yeah. If you’re not in both places. Right. [01:08:10] I point out to him. Yeah. Louis Vuitton’s got shops all over the world. Right. They can manage it. Yeah. [01:08:15] But he’s kind of maybe saying this is more than it is. It’s like it’s implant [01:08:20] surgery. He does maxfax implants and this, that and the other. Yeah. He’s got a whole lot of stuff [01:08:25] going on. Yeah. But what my my general point to you is your mum will be just as proud of you if you’ve got one amazing [01:08:30] practice and or a hundred. Yeah. But yourself in terms of happiness. [01:08:35] Yeah. Some people get high on the notion of I’m this business executive [01:08:40] that goes around handling my 100 centres. Sounds [01:08:45] I like it like the sound of it. Yeah. Yeah. But there’s a lot of [01:08:50] pleasure in being the king of this one place where you’re looking [01:08:55] for perfection. Yeah. I’d say it’s a bit more like becoming that gymnast. [01:09:00] In one place, perfecting it, getting better every day, better every day. You [01:09:05] try and do it for 100 year. There’ll be there’ll be some embarrassing moments. Yeah, a bit, [01:09:10] a bit like that. Uh, you know, loops customer in Bulgaria who wasn’t happy or whatever. Yeah. [01:09:15] You know, so so what I’m saying is don’t necessarily script yourself into multiple locations [01:09:20] because sometimes, sometimes it’s a vanity metric. Yes. [01:09:25] Yeah. It’s, it’s something that sounds good. I agree sometimes.

Bashar Alturk: And [01:09:30] there’s probably an element to that. I’d love to be famous one [01:09:35] day. But yeah, I, yeah, there definitely is an element of it. And [01:09:40] it’s the death of financial element. I want to be successful. But and the honest [01:09:45] truth is the answer is I want to be able to do. I know there’s a level of wealth and above [01:09:50] that level of wealth, that happiness isn’t really going to come from that. Yeah, I [01:09:55] want to do good in the world is is the honest answer. Where do I want to open a charity I want. I [01:10:00] want to be able to have the opportunities to do something good. Do I need. [01:10:05] Do we need 100 practices? No. There’s probably other ways of going [01:10:10] around.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but listen, man, if it’s your dream, it’s your dream. Yeah. Like it might be. [01:10:15] It’s my dream to be a trampolinist. No no no. Yeah. It’s your dream. Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: Anything in business, I think, [01:10:20] is the answer. The idea is to, you know, if we go for 50 and we end up with three, [01:10:25] then then that’s more than enough.

Payman Langroudi: I like that, I like. So you’re saying just you want [01:10:30] you want to aim high. You want to live up to your potential.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah, massively. Aim high and live up to all potential. [01:10:35] And if it’s in business or if it’s in dentistry or if it’s just being a family man, I think [01:10:40] all of them. I think that’s major teaching. I like [01:10:45] the idea of teaching. I mean, again, there is an element of selling a course, um, [01:10:50] but doing right by that course and having something to really sell. So we’ve discussed it. And I think next [01:10:55] year I’d love to open something for students to come and learn and practice a little bit further. Um. [01:11:00]

Payman Langroudi: Listen, I’ve had several students who’ve had communities, [01:11:05] businesses, things aimed at students. Yeah, yeah, it’s all well and good, but students [01:11:10] don’t have any money.

Bashar Alturk: No.

Payman Langroudi: True. Yeah. Communities are fine. But if you’re, you [01:11:15] know, if you’re excited by monetising something. Yeah. Even if it starts out with students [01:11:20] the same way as Conor did. Yeah. You you have it as some sort [01:11:25] of application to everyone. Yeah. So, you know, if your your business is called [01:11:30] student Phantom, whatever, that’s not going to work. You know, so, you know, think [01:11:35] of it like that. You know. Yes. Start on students, practice with students, whatever. Yeah. You know.

Bashar Alturk: But it [01:11:40] would be. Yeah. So if it was a course, I completely agree. It starts it starts with students. And then I guess it would go [01:11:45] those students graduate. And it’s been about building a reputation for those brands. [01:11:50] That’s obvious. I think that’s in the future with more experience.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so it seems to me [01:11:55] that you’ve got a notoriety. Kind of a missing piece. [01:12:00] That’s the wrong way to look at it. But notoriety, you want to be known?

Bashar Alturk: I’d [01:12:05] like to. Yeah, I think so.

Payman Langroudi: Is that your whole generation, or is that. Are you more than that? More than the average [01:12:10] Gen z Z alpha.

Bashar Alturk: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Like [01:12:15] why why do you want to be known, by the way? Look [01:12:20] at me. I’ve got a podcast. I got, you know, it’s just cool. I’m not, I’m not telling you off for wanting to be.

Bashar Alturk: No, no, not at all.

Payman Langroudi: But my, [01:12:25] my business partner, he, he’s the CEO of enlighten. You know, nobody knows who he is. He [01:12:30] doesn’t want to be known. Yeah. Do you have a feeling for why you want to be known?

Bashar Alturk: I’m not [01:12:35] sure. And again, there’s probably a vanity in that, but I [01:12:40] think I’ve done it before. So, for example, at university in like the first [01:12:45] month, because we were on a sports scholarship, we had to do a photo shoot for the university. And those photos were everywhere. [01:12:50] And so everyone would know you. And yes, it’s nice to be.

Payman Langroudi: Known on campus.

Bashar Alturk: Yes, unfortunately. Unfortunately. [01:12:55] Yeah. So it was, um, everyone would come up to you like, oh, you’re [01:13:00] that person. And yeah, there’s definitely an element of vanity in that sense. But [01:13:05] I also think you can impact a lot of people if you’re known people come to you, people ask you questions. [01:13:10] You can be kind to everyone. So for me, I’d spend time talking to every person [01:13:15] who ever came up to me and just being kind. I think being known, I guess, [01:13:20] is it a metric of success? Some some could say.

Payman Langroudi: When I was your age, I used [01:13:25] to think everything’s so rubbish. Okay. Yeah. And everything’s so rubbish. I want [01:13:30] to be impact. I want to make things better. Yeah. Do you feel everything’s rubbish? [01:13:35] I still think everything’s rubbish, by the way. Yes. Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: I think there’s a lot of things that could be [01:13:40] improved in general. I mean even yesterday we attended a conference, a, [01:13:45] an adult conference, a dental conference and the British Society of Restorative Dentistry. [01:13:50] Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Um, that’s very high end.

Bashar Alturk: It was. It was just in Leeds. And they. [01:13:55] They asked a few of us at the University would you like to go attend? And so we attended and I sort of sat there [01:14:00] and the contacts way above our heads at the moment, but I was thinking [01:14:05] this could be improved a lot more and it was an amazing. It was a good event. I kept [01:14:10] thinking, right, we could improve here. We could do that. We could do this, this. We got almost had to hold myself [01:14:15] back before speaking to the the president saying like, because in the end, at the moment I’m a nobody. [01:14:20]

Payman Langroudi: The problem with events is, as I’m finding out at Ministry of Sound, the better the event is, the [01:14:25] more money you lose. Yes. Or the less money you make. Yeah. You know, like that’s, [01:14:30] that’s the issue with events. I mean, you could, you could say the same thing about products, but with events, there’s like a, like, listen, [01:14:35] my personal bugbear at events. Crap. Coffee. Yeah. Why can’t it be great coffee. [01:14:40] Now I’m finding out great coffee. 3500 pounds. Ridiculous. [01:14:45] And then it’s like, oh, do I spend that 3500 pounds on great coffee? Or do I spend it on something else? Something else? It’s [01:14:50] ridiculous. It’s it’s that sort of equation sometimes. [01:14:55] But, you know, like, you know, that notion of, um, the journey rather than [01:15:00] the destination. Yes. In gymnastics, did [01:15:05] you, you sound like you loved the journey. Absolutely. But it’s [01:15:10] very destination kind of determined as well because you’re going for that top level, [01:15:15] you know, intensity. You’ve got to enjoy the journey. Yeah. And enjoy it a little bit more. [01:15:20] Yeah. Than than gymnastics insomuch as see your friends, uh, make [01:15:25] friends, make friends in the first place. This thing you’re saying about this nuclear family that you’re interested [01:15:30] in. Yeah. It’s a massive issue. Yeah, it’s a massive issue. [01:15:35] Yeah. You can’t be away more than one weekend in three.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. And also, I want to. Not [01:15:40] just yet. Yeah. At some point. Yeah, I know massively.

Payman Langroudi: Um. [01:15:45] So let’s talk teeth now. Yeah. [01:15:50] Which aspects of the teeth do you like and which aspects don’t you like so far?

Bashar Alturk: So [01:15:55] at university, I was very lucky again. Communication [01:16:00] skills. I think we had the most amount of totals. Almost raised [01:16:05] an eyebrow at the time. I’m not going to say quality and quantity means quality. So [01:16:10] we got to see a vast array I think at dental school. We’ve done over 180 fillings [01:16:15] even, which I saw quite a lot. Um, pros. [01:16:20] I love doing crown preps, but I guess the other side of pros like dentures I’m not a fan of at [01:16:25] the moment.

Payman Langroudi: See like fixed pros.

Bashar Alturk: Yes. Fixed pros. Um, what I [01:16:30] really enjoyed was I got to do a tooth wear case at university. Um, and then we did a competition, [01:16:35] um like the like British undergraduate conference and we ended up winning that. Um, [01:16:40] and I think that’s the side of dentistry I really would like to go into because [01:16:45] just how holistic it is.

Payman Langroudi: What full mouth rehab? I think so, yeah. Okay. [01:16:50]

Bashar Alturk: Really, really enjoyed just just the difference you [01:16:55] could see from the start to the end how multidisciplinary it is and complex. [01:17:00] And almost I, from what I’ve understood and researched, quite risky. [01:17:05] You know.

Payman Langroudi: It’s dangerous, like not dangerous, but it’s important work.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. Important. [01:17:10] Yeah. Risky. And also I mean very, um, fortunate at the university. You know, [01:17:15] if a composite chips, I can replace it. I guess in practice that’s a cost that you’re going [01:17:20] to have to factor in and if everything keeps failing. Um, I learnt a lot from. [01:17:25]

Payman Langroudi: Interested in blood.

Bashar Alturk: I would love to go into like maxfax [01:17:30] and that sort of stuff in general.

Payman Langroudi: I mean blood could be perio. It could be implants. [01:17:35]

Bashar Alturk: Implants for sure.

Payman Langroudi: But blood, you know, like you have to be for something like implants. [01:17:40] You’d be very happy with flaps bone. Yeah. Uh, it’s very like, you know, [01:17:45] again, high risk work. Insomuch as you know, things can go even further wrong. Yeah. [01:17:50] Are you. You’re up for that, right?

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. More than happy. I spoke to we don’t do many service [01:17:55] calls at university, so I spoke. We finished. We graduated this week. Um, and I spoke to one of the consultants [01:18:00] said, please, can I come in and just learn how to do a surgical extraction before I leave? And [01:18:05] so yeah, I think on that side I’d be really happy.

Payman Langroudi: Um, listen, I mean, [01:18:10] I did max fax house job. Yeah. In your world, that would be called what they call it [01:18:15] something else. Now.

Bashar Alturk: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Dct, DCT there. I was very [01:18:20] happy to watch this guy cutting off a bit of the guy’s foot and stick it in his jaw and all that. But [01:18:25] the doing piece here, and I did, I did some of the, um, you know, A&E [01:18:30] stitching faces. Yeah. In the middle of the night. I hated that. But [01:18:35] listen, if you don’t mind blood implants for sure, man. Jump jump [01:18:40] in, jump in now. Yeah. I’d say make some decisions now. [01:18:45] Not the corporate 100 practices type decisions. You get to that, by the way. Yeah. [01:18:50] Yeah. But for now, jump into one of these aspects. They’re kind [01:18:55] of different full mouth rehab and kind of but you know, sometimes it’s the same patient, often it’s [01:19:00] the same patient. So you have to understand restorative to do implants.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah, exactly. No, I [01:19:05] think the implant side, like I said, like the full mouth rehab, but the implant side I really looked into [01:19:10] understanding I’ve had, and I don’t know your opinion on it is like you said, just jump in. And I spoke to some people [01:19:15] and it’s start tomorrow. Yeah. You know, don’t wait around for five, six years. Go [01:19:20] and learn. Learn.

Payman Langroudi: I think I also don’t want people to think that if they [01:19:25] do nothing for five years, it’s a bad thing, you know? [01:19:30] Yeah. It’s not. No no, no. Let’s say you’re super tired. Yeah. Let’s say [01:19:35] you struggled. Not you. Someone else. Yeah. Struggle through dental school. Super tired [01:19:40] now? Yeah. All right. Spend four years doing simple [01:19:45] stuff. Keep everything simple. Yeah. The only trap is to. Then if that carries on, you [01:19:50] know, and it can. And and then you start to hate work because you’re not getting better at it. Yeah, but [01:19:55] it shouldn’t feel too bad. Take three years off and then do something. But okay, my [01:20:00] general advice is pick something and dive in. Okay. You know, so like, let’s say it’s [01:20:05] implants, you know, really go talk, shake hands, shadow start. [01:20:10] Let’s say, let’s put your first implant in by this time, you know, like it’s [01:20:15] good advice to like, really focus in on one of them. Yeah. But like, I don’t know, trampoline [01:20:20] over was the ring. Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah, yeah. Well [01:20:25] we’ll see. Give us a if we ever speak again on the podcast in, in ten years time, what sort [01:20:30] of difference would be? And then where, where we actually, it takes.

Payman Langroudi: Ten years to [01:20:35] become a really good dentist.

Bashar Alturk: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: It does. Um, by [01:20:40] that time, maybe you’re on practice 73.

Bashar Alturk: No.

Payman Langroudi: See, look, we like to talk about mistakes on [01:20:45] this board. Yeah. Clinical errors. I like I’m [01:20:50] interested in other kinds of mistakes you’ve made. What comes to mind when I say that?

Bashar Alturk: They [01:20:55] call errors straight away. Comes out to me is is that [01:21:00] over over promising over attaching myself to the [01:21:05] patient that that need and want to do the best for the patient can be very [01:21:10] detrimental at times. Um, and I think it’s led against like [01:21:15] loss of confidence sometimes and not being able to deliver it at the moment. It’s been great because I’ve learned a [01:21:20] lot from it and been able to learn different things clinically. [01:21:25] I mean, I remember the first first ever in there. I did, um, I fractured a file in the apical [01:21:30] third, um, of, of, of the canal.

Payman Langroudi: Um, that’s all right.

Bashar Alturk: It was, [01:21:35] they couldn’t get out um at the time. Um but That was probably the worst [01:21:40] thing I’ve ever done on clinics at the moment, but I was very happy to do [01:21:45] it, in a sense, and we consented the patient for the risks and explained the, the process after [01:21:50] um and I learnt a lot and I think I’m sure it will happen again [01:21:55] at some point. I’d say that’s my Dental clinical mistake. Um. [01:22:00] In life. I [01:22:05] think it has two sides to the coin. Is that sort of that [01:22:10] want and need to learn and just jumping in the sink or swim [01:22:15] mentality. It can be massively advantageous. It’s put me in rooms [01:22:20] and places in positions where, you know, I’ve learnt so much compared [01:22:25] to someone who hadn’t put themselves in that position, especially, for example, like the loops company at the moment. [01:22:30] Um, it caused me a lot of lot of issues at the time.

Payman Langroudi: Um, how far did you get with that, by the [01:22:35] way?

Bashar Alturk: We, we sold loads, we sold about 60 and then the school put a stop to it at the time. [01:22:40]

Payman Langroudi: School figured it out.

Bashar Alturk: They they weren’t happy with with it. Students buying, [01:22:45] coming back and complications of it at a time and had to [01:22:50] go through a whole procedure, um, of, of explaining it to a board and, and like school warnings, [01:22:55] etc. and we, we said at the time.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:23:00] was it, what was it?

Bashar Alturk: Loss of argument of my payment, um.

Payman Langroudi: Or [01:23:05] failure to thrive clause that one.

Bashar Alturk: They quoted some of the GDC [01:23:10] principles.

Payman Langroudi: Just to practice.

Bashar Alturk: Yes. And a sense of like, well, if you’re going to focus [01:23:15] on why you’re not focusing on dentistry, which I wasn’t, and it was the fact [01:23:20] that you’re not a salesman.

Payman Langroudi: Were you failing dentistry?

Bashar Alturk: No, [01:23:25] no, no, no. I was, you know, as hard as I found, dental school has been very, very fortunate. Touch wood. That [01:23:30] was doing very well. I mean, clinically, it it it was raising eyebrows [01:23:35] of what we were doing in the cases, etc. and they were all doing. I mean, under the guidance of the tutor. [01:23:40] And he was very happy. Those who worked with me loved me.

Payman Langroudi: How long did it take you to sell [01:23:45] 60. Like, how long was it from beginning to the end [01:23:50] of that business? A year longer.

Bashar Alturk: Year and a half. No, 60 or 60 [01:23:55] sales as well. Those would be 60 pairs of loops that have left us in [01:24:00] that sense. Some sales, some give us [01:24:05] some at cost price to friends. Just trying to get loops out there. [01:24:10] And I think I’ve still got probably 62 was the order. I think [01:24:15] I’ve probably still got 8 or 9 just sat in my room at the moment. Just, yeah, just just [01:24:20] just sat there and something to consider in the future, um, of [01:24:25] going back to it. Um, but again, I don’t, don’t regret it at all. It caused [01:24:30] me a lot of stress in fifth year going through all that, all, all the stress.

Payman Langroudi: To business turnover [01:24:35] was like ten zero zero £0.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah, we’re free as well. [01:24:40] I think if we go I see I wasn’t involved with the accounts, which was which was good. I [01:24:45] was good and bad. I was the face of it being the face of it in the Dental. The [01:24:50] other two boys weren’t dentists. They would come back and um, all [01:24:55] the issues would come to me. Yeah. Because I was the the dental person. Yeah. So yeah, [01:25:00] it was hard. Um, but it allowed us and I bought a pair of loops that I use at the [01:25:05] moment and we learnt a lot from it, but it was, it’s definitely hard. It’s hard [01:25:10] as you know, it’s hard to set a business up and I’m sure you’ve probably set others that no [01:25:15] one perfect.

Payman Langroudi: Who focussed on this one. Um, but yeah, [01:25:20] I lost money for some years. For the first three years we lost money. Yeah. For years and [01:25:25] then for another 3 or 4 years after that. Not making much money. Yeah. Um, not everyone’s like that [01:25:30] though. When you talk to some people, they like profitable day one. There’s some people are just real talent. Yeah, some businesses [01:25:35] are more like that. You know, if it’s not a product business. Yeah. If it’s a service business. Yeah. You know, like [01:25:40] it could be education. I got ten people in the room. Now they’re all paying. If I had eight people [01:25:45] in the room, I’d just cancelled the whole event and give everyone their money back. You know, like, you know, you can’t be that way. [01:25:50] Yeah. Um, what comes to mind if I ask you, what’s your favourite resource [01:25:55] in dentistry?

Bashar Alturk: Uh.

Payman Langroudi: Website, [01:26:00] maybe a Instagram or.

Bashar Alturk: Website or.

Payman Langroudi: Instagram [01:26:05] page or a book.

Bashar Alturk: Massive. So with the training, [01:26:10] travelling hours per day, so podcasts, like you said, your podcast, massive fan, listen [01:26:15] to loads of them. Um, you said jazz.

Payman Langroudi: Jazz. Yeah. Very good, very [01:26:20] good, but incredible podcast.

Bashar Alturk: So the Protrusive dental podcast, just learning little, little. [01:26:25] That’s it with dentistry I found, oh, even support with trampoline little just a little bit [01:26:30] And our podcast.

Payman Langroudi: Doesn’t do trampoline podcasts as well.

Bashar Alturk: No, there isn’t any at the moment. [01:26:35] And there isn’t. There isn’t one. I’d love to start a podcast at some point. Um, but there [01:26:40] isn’t many YouTube I found for students. I was, I was, you [01:26:45] know, sometimes I had like third year students coming up and wanting to use that tool to phantom head in my room and said, like, I’ve got a test [01:26:50] tomorrow. Please can we just borrow it for a bit? And I’m like, yeah, of course you can. And I’ll sit there and I’ll actually teach. And I [01:26:55] almost feel like a fraud because in the honest truth, what do I know at the moment? But, um, [01:27:00] I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Just watching this idea, like in your student room.

Bashar Alturk: Two free.

Payman Langroudi: Youtube for [01:27:05] kids drilling genuinely.

Bashar Alturk: And, um, yeah, [01:27:10] YouTube’s incredible resource. Just searching for particular procedures and there’s like Stevenson [01:27:15] Dental solutions. They’re very good. Just, just, just learning. And I think that for any resource, [01:27:20] put yourself even with the restorative, um, conference yesterday, 90% [01:27:25] of it’s going to fly over my head, but that one little bit will make the 6 or 7 hours or so [01:27:30] worth it. So I think so.

Payman Langroudi: It’s funny, I’ve been telling I’ve been telling these speakers for ministry. They’ve [01:27:35] only got 20 minutes for their lectures. Cool. Yeah. I was saying that that one little bit that everyone bangs [01:27:40] on about. Yeah. If they get 1 or 2 little bits from each speaker. [01:27:45] Yeah. Yeah. Because it’s 20 minutes. There’s a lot of speakers going out. Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: That’s incredibly smart. [01:27:50] Those 20 minutes, your audience will be captivated for difficult.

Payman Langroudi: As a speaker, it’s very difficult. [01:27:55] The shorter it is, the more difficult it is. I can imagine you have to take stuff out.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, [01:28:00] like there’s there’s Andrew Darwin’s going to be speaking. He’s doing this mass massive. Like, [01:28:05] uh, I’ve told him, I’ve asked him, can you do something maxillofacial? Okay. [01:28:10] And just like talking about it will take your time.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah, I can imagine.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:28:15] but I, it’s interesting, like to introspect. Yeah. When, when you think about talking about dentistry, [01:28:20] introspect and think, what is my 1 or 2 contributions [01:28:25] to this whole narrative. Yeah. And you’ll appreciate you’re a bit too early [01:28:30] in dentistry, but you’ll appreciate in trampoline. Yeah. There is 1 or 2 things that’s [01:28:35] you. Yeah. You know that it’s your innovation. Yeah. And that’s really [01:28:40] the difference between a teacher and all the rest of us who are not such great teachers, is that [01:28:45] they’ve got more of those 1 or 2. They’ve got 4 or 5 things that they’ve come up with themselves [01:28:50] that, you know, it’s a really interesting thing to think about that, you know, what is the 1 or [01:28:55] 2 things that you’ve put into the world? Yeah, yeah. And I can see from your the way you’re talking, [01:29:00] you’re definitely that sort of Steve Jobs kind of. No, no, not, not that you [01:29:05] are. But Steve Jobs has this thing about you can make a dent in the world. Yeah, yeah. Like [01:29:10] the same thing I was saying to you. You can walk to Zara and pick a shirt up, or you can walk into [01:29:15] Zara and say, what are they doing here? You know? You know what Dental are they putting into the world? Yeah. [01:29:20] What comes to mind when I ask you, what’s the best lecture you’ve been to? Lecturer.

Bashar Alturk: It’s [01:29:25] a big, big question. Payman because there’s a lot of times [01:29:30] I’ll sit and look at the lecture and switch off within a couple of minutes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, the education system [01:29:35] doesn’t cater for loads of people with ADHD kind of thing. No. [01:29:40] Low concentration types?

Bashar Alturk: No.

Payman Langroudi: What does come to mind? Even like [01:29:45] Ted talk. Tell me like something. Like something not Dental.

Bashar Alturk: I mean, honest [01:29:50] answer genuinely is podcast like these, you know, Dental Leaders the protrusive one itself. [01:29:55] I can tune in. I find it very.

Payman Langroudi: Very good.

Bashar Alturk: Very, very.

Payman Langroudi: Good. His [01:30:00] voice is brilliant for that.

Bashar Alturk: So calming. Yeah. Um, conferences. [01:30:05] I remember watching Amit Patel at um, [01:30:10] PDSA one year and it was just very, uh, [01:30:15] implants at the time. Perio implants. He’s a cool dude. He was very, very cool. And that’s [01:30:20] it captivated the audience just the way he spoke. Yeah. Interactive wasn’t [01:30:25] too serious. I think that was the main thing. And it just [01:30:30] involved the audience and in genuine that’s [01:30:35] the word, I think, for all of you, whether it’s yourself or whether it was Amit Patel, it’s it’s [01:30:40] just been genuine. And you can tell that through a podcast or a lecture or a podcast. [01:30:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bashar Alturk: You can, you can tell.

Payman Langroudi: Final question. Fancy [01:30:50] dinner party, three guests dead or alive. [01:30:55] Are you having.

Bashar Alturk: Oh, I’ve been debating and debating [01:31:00] debating it for like the past two weeks even. I was driving, I was walking on here. We’d gone [01:31:05] to the to the wrong building. I said to my mum, oh, I’m still not sure the first one would be [01:31:10] my grandfather. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Dad’s mom’s.

Bashar Alturk: Dad. Mom’s dad. Yeah. Never [01:31:15] met him, never met him. He.

Payman Langroudi: The stories were the legends about him.

Bashar Alturk: He sounds [01:31:20] like an absolute incredible person, and I think I would have had a lot to learn from him. He [01:31:25] he was like the Minister of Industry in industrial [01:31:30] in Jordan.

Payman Langroudi: He oh, in government he yeah. He was a [01:31:35] businessman before that.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. He he he sorted like loads of factories out. He was the first [01:31:40] to send his sisters like. So he sent all his sisters to university and all his [01:31:45] like all the girls, he was a big pioneer of of that side and you know, education first. [01:31:50] Um and he was ill during the whole time. So he had pulmonary fibrosis [01:31:55] at the time. And so my mum lost him very young, but [01:32:00] the stories of what he did and how modern his way [01:32:05] of thinking was at that time, I love to have a conversation with him and [01:32:10] just sounds amazing. And I just learned he was an not RAF, he was, [01:32:15] um, an engineer in the Army as well. So I think, yeah, it’d [01:32:20] be really cool to learn from him. Second one for me. I love boxing and [01:32:25] would be Muhammad Ali. Um, just for what he stands for.

Payman Langroudi: He was so much more than boxing, [01:32:30] wasn’t he?

Bashar Alturk: But so much more.

Payman Langroudi: Because I hate boxing. But but Muhammad Ali I love. Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: It’s [01:32:35] just the adversities. And you know during that period what he had [01:32:40] to overcome I incredible. Third [01:32:45] one I struggled with a lot. Um for me [01:32:50] is is dong dong. It’s um, he’s like a five. His [01:32:55] name’s dong dong a Chinese.

Payman Langroudi: Dong.

Bashar Alturk: Dong dong dong dong dong dong.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: Chinese jumping. [01:33:00]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. Um. World champion. Olympic [01:33:05] champion. Multiple. Um, like multiple Olympic medallists. Just incredible. [01:33:10] He is the pioneer of the sport. Um.

Payman Langroudi: When was it around? When [01:33:15] was.

Bashar Alturk: He. He won his first medal in 2008 and his last 1 in [01:33:20] 2020. Um and through he Olympic medal we’re talking it dominated [01:33:25] the sport. And and now he’s a coach. But just he [01:33:30] was incredible. And um we’ve been in the same room at times. So I’m hoping to get the conversation [01:33:35] at some point. Um, last time we were in China. Um yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What’s [01:33:40] China like? Have you been there recently?

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. So we went there in [01:33:45] 2023.

Payman Langroudi: It’s unbelievable. Now it’s it’s looks futuristic. That’s [01:33:50] it.

Bashar Alturk: Really genuinely that’s it. It’s a different world. It’s like London massively [01:33:55] busy populated. People are genuinely lovely. But [01:34:00] just the technology and how quick they can put buildings up and things. It [01:34:05] was, you know, the the Olympic Village that we, we, we stayed in um for the Asian Games. [01:34:10] They built a whole village for, for these athletes within like a [01:34:15] year. It was, it was, it was incredible. And I remember there was like a there was a robot and I was playing tennis [01:34:20] against a robot in a.

Payman Langroudi: Really, really, really.

Bashar Alturk: So which yeah, it was, it’s [01:34:25] an incredible. Um.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the experience of being in that sort of Asian [01:34:30] Games village or whatever? What’s that feel like? Is it fun in itself just being there? [01:34:35]

Bashar Alturk: It’s it’s insane.

Payman Langroudi: You give yourself the time to enjoy it or you sort of focussed [01:34:40] on the I loved it.

Bashar Alturk: No, I love up until the day before the competition, I loved it.

Payman Langroudi: Stop [01:34:45] and smell the roses.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah, it’s genuinely. Everyone from different countries, different [01:34:50] kits.

Payman Langroudi: Has everyone meeting and happy to meet and.

Bashar Alturk: Everyone’s happy to meet. Um, [01:34:55] massive like Food Village and the Food Village itself is incredible. Like as much [01:35:00] KFC, McDonald’s, like all these like just and foods as much as you wanted activities [01:35:05] to do the way you treated like a VIP, [01:35:10] staying in these really nice places and walking into that, like the, the Chinese [01:35:15] people really treated you as a celebrity. So I was walking around and people were asking for my signatures. I was like, [01:35:20] uh, yeah, I’m just like, uh, okay. And yeah, [01:35:25] it’s a competition on that level. It’s just amazing. You go and watch [01:35:30] other sports so you go support other sports as well. It’s such an experience, but absolutely [01:35:35] like petrifying at the same time.

Payman Langroudi: Petrifying what? [01:35:40] The actual competing piece.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. I remember the day before just almost like just being in tears from the pressure. Like [01:35:45] just, just I remember I met like the queen, uh, sorry, the princess of Jordan. They, they came [01:35:50] to watch me, um, at the time, but like that didn’t add pressure, but it was just the whole [01:35:55] event and you really feel.

Payman Langroudi: So were you Jordan, at this point?

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. So that was what I was. I moved over [01:36:00] to Jordan after the injury.

Payman Langroudi: Before that you were Great Britain?

Bashar Alturk: Yes. I represented Great Britain and England at the [01:36:05] time.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So interesting man. And the sort [01:36:10] of overall feeling is like massively positive. Or do some people not not find [01:36:15] it positive? Some people not enjoy being there.

Bashar Alturk: I think I [01:36:20] think those who go to that, I.

Payman Langroudi: Mean, the pressure, if it’s bringing you to tears. Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah, [01:36:25] I.

Payman Langroudi: Remember it’s such an agony and ecstasy kind of thing.

Bashar Alturk: I think those of that [01:36:30] competition would have I assume a lot of them would enjoy it. Yeah. I think I’ve seen so many people [01:36:35] who can’t handle the pressure and that’s okay. There’s different avenues. Um, who [01:36:40] are talented and can’t handle the pressure leave the sport earlier. I think when you get to that stage, [01:36:45] you’ve already qualified, you’ve done big events before to get to, to the competition of that [01:36:50] calibre. I think a lot of them would would enjoy it.

Payman Langroudi: Scratched your itch a little bit for [01:36:55] the whole being famous piece, right?

Bashar Alturk: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But tell me the feeling of when someone gives you a medal [01:37:00] at the end of some competition that you’ve worked your butt off for. Is it relief? Is it what [01:37:05] is it like? What’s that feeling feel like.

Bashar Alturk: Pure joy of the [01:37:10] event. And you do really enjoy it When you finish the routine and you know you’re in cameras, [01:37:15] you see yourself on the screen and you get the score and you’re with your coach and you’ve won. It’s just amazing. [01:37:20] Even even though I came sixth in Asia, so I didn’t even win at that point.

Payman Langroudi: That’s big.

Bashar Alturk: As well. That was the you know, I even [01:37:25] FaceTimed my parents at the time whilst I was in the arena and oh, it was, it was a massive [01:37:30] experience. It was, it was really good, honest answer. And maybe as cliche as it [01:37:35] sounds, the medal. No one cares. You’ll sit there.

Payman Langroudi: The item.

Bashar Alturk: The actual [01:37:40] item. Yeah. The all in my room.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Bashar Alturk: You’ll never ever look at it [01:37:45] again. And it is that the journey up to there, the moment of everyone.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:37:50] is there an element of relief or is it, is it just just excitement?

Bashar Alturk: Um, [01:37:55] all excitement up until maybe an hour or two after the [01:38:00] event. And then it’s the relief at the time.

Payman Langroudi: And then when you come back and your mum says, take the rubbish [01:38:05] bin out, that must be a real downer.

Bashar Alturk: It’s hard, especially the third year. So third year I went to the Asian [01:38:10] Games. It took me months. I really.

Bashar Alturk: Really, really, really.

Bashar Alturk: Months. You [01:38:15] on such a high. You almost not in contact with anyone on the outside [01:38:20] world. Sport, sport, train, focus, sport and you’re there for, you know, you’re there for two weeks, [01:38:25] um, give or take like the whole from opening ceremony to the closing ceremony. And [01:38:30] so you live in this bubble and you leave and it’s massive part of my life. I know trampolines, not football, but [01:38:35] for me, it was incredible. Everything. It was everything. So coming back and even going back to [01:38:40] training, it’s like, well, it takes a while. It’s like, well, and there’s a lot of athletes that talk about sort [01:38:45] of like a, a depression period after major events because they’re not [01:38:50] sure what to do with themselves. And I found it hard.

Payman Langroudi: Like it’s real, man. I even come back from mini smart about [01:38:55] a composite. Yeah. Hands on course. Yeah, yeah. And that night when I’m taking the rubbish out, I feel a bit poor. A bit low. [01:39:00] Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: Like holiday blues.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Bashar Alturk: But amplified because.

Payman Langroudi: Times [01:39:05] a thousand.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. Because everything had worked to for me, I’d achieved at that point. [01:39:10] I’d lived that dream for me and I was like, well.

Payman Langroudi: What now?

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. [01:39:15] Like, I mean, there’s so much, if you really want it to look like nowhere near the best in the [01:39:20] world. But for me, it was good. Um, yeah, it’s [01:39:25] it’s hard.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve really enjoyed this, man. It’s been a massive pleasure. Learned a lot from you. Thank [01:39:30] you. Brilliant mindset. You’ve got brilliant, brilliant mind. I’m really looking forward to seeing how you develop. Um, [01:39:35] but make sure you stay in touch.

Bashar Alturk: No, massively, massively appreciate being here. And I’ve. I’ve loved [01:39:40] it and all the waffle I’ve said. So thank you so much.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Bashar Alturk: Thank you.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:39:45] for listening guys. Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure you tune in for future episodes. [01:39:50] Hit subscribe in iTunes or Google Play or whatever platform it is. And [01:39:55] you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you would, um, give us.

Payman Langroudi: A six star rating. [01:40:00]

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. That’s what I always leave my Uber driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks [01:40:05] a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.

Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] enlightened Online training.com to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time. Whitening Underwhelms try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

VOICE: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where [00:00:30] you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and [00:00:40] Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Afzal [00:00:45] Haq onto the podcast. Afzal was an endodontist interesting [00:00:50] road to endodontics. It’s a full on practice owner, ten [00:00:55] years of general practice before deciding to go down that route in South Manchester. Indo [00:01:00] 41 is the name of the Indo branch.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. M41 [00:01:05] Indo.

Payman Langroudi: M41.

Afzal Haque: Is the postcode of where we are. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And the practice squad. [00:01:10]

Afzal Haque: What’s the practice is Stretford Road Dental practice. That’s my main practice. But I have a little Indo [00:01:15] branch in there. Call M41 Indo.

Payman Langroudi: And you trained with some of the people I’ve had on the show already.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. So [00:01:20] shout out to uh Amal Hourani. He was in my in my group. So [00:01:25] when we did our specialist training, there was four of us. Um, and he was one, he was one of the four. So I [00:01:30] spent a lot of time with him. Um, Rob Jacobs he was the above me. A good friend of mine lives [00:01:35] locally to me. We, we chat a lot. Um indo and non indo stuff. Um [00:01:40] sanj has he been on your, on your podcast. No, but he’s a good friend of yours isn’t he. Yeah. You know [00:01:45] him well. Yeah. Um he taught me um so a lot of a [00:01:50] lot of the Indo guys, um and then other people as well that I’ve been on kind of, I know quite a few [00:01:55] NASA came on not long ago.

Payman Langroudi: Manchester’s kind of a small place in that sense.

Afzal Haque: Everyone [00:02:00] knows it’s a good place. I’ve been born and bred there, so it’s. I’ve never left it really, apart from just to [00:02:05] go to Liverpool for three years.

Payman Langroudi: Did you not want to leave Manchester for uni?

Afzal Haque: So. So [00:02:10] going back to very, very beginning I was okay. Student average student, [00:02:15] just getting into dentistry was just like everything to me. So I got [00:02:20] an offer from Manchester. It was my first offer given to me not offer interview. [00:02:25] Yeah. Um, and I went along to that and literally the next day I [00:02:30] was given the, the offer. And I think from what I remember, you could only pick one and one, the other one had to [00:02:35] be non dentistry. So as I was applying and the interview started coming, I just cancelled [00:02:40] everything else because my dad said, you know what, you got Manchester, no need for you to go anywhere else. It’s just easier [00:02:45] for us. It’d be easier for you. You’ll thank me for it. Um, and and that was it. So I never [00:02:50] really had a desire to.

Payman Langroudi: To go away. A shadow of regret.

Afzal Haque: I think when I went to Liverpool, [00:02:55] I went as a as a 34 year old and I, [00:03:00] I we’ll come on to it later. But I spent one year there alone and that [00:03:05] was very new to me because I’ve never lived alone.

Payman Langroudi: Did you live at home during university as [00:03:10] well? I did, I lived at home.

Afzal Haque: Well, I only lived two and a half miles down, down from the university. One bus, [00:03:15] 15 minutes and I was there. It made no sense to to live in.

Payman Langroudi: My son [00:03:20] did engineering. Yeah. And the best school for engineering is one of the best is Imperial College. [00:03:25] Yeah, but Royal College is the building next door to his school. Yes. I banned him from even applying.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, [00:03:30] yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I’ve got kids now. I mean, what would I advise them, um, if they wanted [00:03:35] to? There’s no problem. But I don’t feel I missed out on university life because [00:03:40] my parents were very trusting, very, you know, modern thinking said, do you know what? As long as you’re back [00:03:45] home for a decent time, do what you want. So my mates lived in halls [00:03:50] and I’d, I’d go to uni and then go and meet them in their halls and spend a lot.

Payman Langroudi: If If you want to come home in an indecent [00:03:55] time.

Afzal Haque: Indecent time, well, I’d have to give him a call before that. I’d have to give him a call just just to warn them where I am. [00:04:00] That happened a few times. And and mothers never sleep. My dad was fast asleep, [00:04:05] but mothers, this.

Payman Langroudi: Was the days before mobile phones were like, yeah, yeah.

Afzal Haque: I think we just got our mobile phone [00:04:10] then. So it would have been what, 2001? Okay, see that one? Yeah. So I had, you know, the typical Nokia [00:04:15] with the big buttons where you step on them to, to, you know, to, to dial, dial the numbers. [00:04:20] Um, but my mum would never sleep. She’d come home, she’d give me a look and she’d just look at me and [00:04:25] she, I think she would just analyse what I looked like at that time of night. And [00:04:30] she said, fine. But yeah, it was, they were very, very good with me. So I never felt like I missed out [00:04:35] on university. Yeah. I didn’t live on my own. I didn’t fend for myself, um, at that time. Um, [00:04:40] but we were brought up to, to do a lot of stuff by ourselves. So even at home, we were kind of doing our own [00:04:45] laundry and just helping out. Mum did help, of course, and dad also helped.

Payman Langroudi: What do your parents do? [00:04:50]

Afzal Haque: So my dad is a retired school teacher. So he came from India, um, [00:04:55] in, in the 70s, a long story, but um, he came over [00:05:00] here, um for medical treatment. So he’s, he’s, he’s the [00:05:05] son of a, of a, of a doctor from India. My grandfather was a surgeon. Um, my [00:05:10] father as a young child, she used to suffer from severe headaches. So my [00:05:15] grandfather used to, used to give him injections. I’m, I’m guessing it was probably morphine at that time. [00:05:20] And he, my dad used to said to me, he goes, your grandfather used to say, oh, either you going to this pain is going to [00:05:25] go or you’re not going to wake up. Because my dad said this. The pain was [00:05:30] that severe. So my grandfather did his postgraduate training in Manchester. [00:05:35] Um, so he did his primary medical degree from India, came over here, his post-grad training, went back [00:05:40] to India. So he knew colleagues in Manchester, my dad’s sister. So my dad’s number [00:05:45] in contact, you know, for context, my dad’s number, seven of eight children.

Payman Langroudi: Whoa.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. Big family, [00:05:50] big Indian family. So his sister, who would have been number four or number five, [00:05:55] was a fair bit older than him. So maybe, maybe ten, 15 years older than him. She [00:06:00] was married to an accountant and had settled in Manchester. So my grandfather knew that [00:06:05] his sister’s there. So he said, well, I’m going to send you over to Manchester and let’s get you fully checked out. So. So that [00:06:10] took years. So my dad came here probably at age 11, enrolled in a school, lived [00:06:15] with his sister and in an area of South Manchester called Worsley. Years [00:06:20] went by and diagnosis came out that everything was fine. I think [00:06:25] the suspicion was he had a brain tumour, but he didn’t. Eventually, as he. As he got older, he grew out of it. But [00:06:30] then he was fully fledged in the local society. He was he was a student. Um, so [00:06:35] my grandfather left him. Um, so he ended up staying here. So during [00:06:40] his, I think 16 or 17 years old, maybe GCSE A levels would have been O-levels [00:06:45] at the time. His sister emigrated to the Middle East with her husband. They got a new job. [00:06:50] So then he became a lodger with one of his class fellows families, an Irish [00:06:55] family.

Afzal Haque: Um, yeah. His friend was called Anthony. And, um, we call him Uncle Anthony today because [00:07:00] he’s actually he’s more my dad’s brother than he is a friend. So they keep him. He’s [00:07:05] moved to Australia now. So my dad lived with them at the time of living with them. He [00:07:10] obviously worked, studied, worked, studied. He didn’t have any family support. So his [00:07:15] dream was to be a doctor. But he lost a few years because of his illness. And then, you know, [00:07:20] um, appointments, this, that and the other. And he, he couldn’t concentrate long for studying [00:07:25] because the headaches would come. So he was very good at biology. And then he said, look, I need to [00:07:30] do something that’s going to be quick. I can get through it. I can get myself a career and move on with it. [00:07:35] So he did. He did zoology as a primary degree and then went on to do a [00:07:40] masters and did a teaching degree and started off as a technician. [00:07:45] A lab technician in a school became a teacher in that same school and 40 years later [00:07:50] retired at that school.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Afzal Haque: So that’s how he did it. So he was a he, he was he was self-made. [00:07:55] Pretty much no family support, um, moral support, phone calls, all that kind of [00:08:00] stuff, but not financially. Um, and then in 1979, he went back to [00:08:05] India, married my mother and brought her back over in 81. And I was born 82. [00:08:10]

Payman Langroudi: Did she work?

Afzal Haque: No, my mom didn’t work here. So my mom was, um, a school teacher in India. So [00:08:15] she taught Hindi and she, she was, she had a degree in sociology, so she taught primary school children. So [00:08:20] she was working there. But then, um, after marrying my dad, um, came here housewife [00:08:25] hated it here. Absolutely hated it.

Payman Langroudi: You could imagine. Absolutely.

Afzal Haque: So [00:08:30] my mum um, comes from quite a, a noble background back home. Um, I don’t [00:08:35] know if you’re aware of how the, the Indian um aristocracy, um [00:08:40] kingdoms used to work back in.

Payman Langroudi: The.

Afzal Haque: Maharajahs. Yeah. Uh, Hindus were with Maharajahs [00:08:45] and Muslims were were nawabs. So my mother was a granddaughter [00:08:50] of Nawab. Oh, yeah. So the stories that she tells [00:08:55] us, I can’t imagine that happened. But she was saying that her childhood, they [00:09:00] played with elephants and all that kind of stuff. That was that was the pets that they owned. Um, so she seen quite [00:09:05] a lot. And then she married my father because he, he was, um, family, [00:09:10] friends of her family. He was abroad, he had a good stable job, but she knew [00:09:15] how to do nothing. She didn’t cook, she didn’t clean. And then she came here and realised that I’ve got to [00:09:20] do everything myself. So that was a shock to her. Um, a big cultural shock. So [00:09:25] when I was born, um, she took me back to India. Um, so I was born here in Manchester, but at the age of [00:09:30] about nine months, my father was like, you’re struggling. I’ve got to work. Let’s you go back [00:09:35] home, um, for a year while he’s young and you get all the help. So she went and took me back home. I don’t remember [00:09:40] any of it, but I seen pictures.

Payman Langroudi: You’re the oldest.

Afzal Haque: I’m the eldest. Yeah. Brother and I’ve got one younger brother. [00:09:45]

Payman Langroudi: What does he.

Afzal Haque: Do? He’s a pharmacist. He’s a pharmacist. He actually works for the GDC [00:09:50] equivalent of pharmacy. So he was a clinical pharmacist. He owned his own pharmacy [00:09:55] and did it for years but didn’t quite gel with it. But then he developed his pharmacy [00:10:00] from nothing to a profitable pharmacy and got [00:10:05] very much involved in the admin and the, the politics side of things. And then he got recruited to, [00:10:10] um, be an insulator. Yeah. Regulatory inspector. So very lovely job. Works from home. Um, [00:10:15] managed his own diary, goes a few days a week to do inspections. [00:10:20] He’s back home by two. Great job. So, so that’s what he does. Yeah. So my mum [00:10:25] going back to my mum. So so I went back to India for a while and then [00:10:30] and then then after a year we came back and my dad and my mum just started [00:10:35] a family. My brother was born a couple of years later and that was it. So my dad was the sole owner of the house, [00:10:40] lived in a very humble part of Manchester. And um, it was all about education, [00:10:45] education, education.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting. Quite a lot of dentists are children of [00:10:50] teachers.

Afzal Haque: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve, you know, I’ve had a few people sit where you’re sitting telling me their parents were teachers. [00:10:55] What’s it like? I mean, being is there like no option [00:11:00] but to study and. Yes. So as a child of a teacher, as an Asian child of a teacher.

Afzal Haque: In my [00:11:05] family, 100%. Um, so, so I’m lucky. I’m very lucky. Fortunate. All my cousins [00:11:10] have done very well in life. They’re either doctors or some sort of medical profession or lawyer. [00:11:15] They’ve got some sort of profession. Um, so my dad’s my dad didn’t make it as a doctor. [00:11:20] He wanted to be a doctor, but through illness, he didn’t. It’s not like he didn’t have the intelligence. He just didn’t have the opportunity. [00:11:25] Um, and time was on on his side. Wasn’t on his side. But my dad lodged when [00:11:30] he was at university. He went to Manchester University and his, two of his best mates were dentists. [00:11:35] And um, he got on with them very, very [00:11:40] well. Um, and to this day he still, still good friends with him. They’ve all got kids similar age as us. So as [00:11:45] young children we used to visit them and.

Payman Langroudi: So you could see what was going on in [00:11:50] their lives.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. And my dad would tell me. So, you know, obviously these, these uncle come uncles [00:11:55] are our dentists, you know, was this something that you’d, you, you know, you might want to be interested [00:12:00] in. So he, they, one of them was a general dentist, one was an orthodontist. And the general dentist was in Manchester. [00:12:05] So we used to go as patients. So he’d do his check-up. And I remember looking at the surgery thinking, [00:12:10] this is cool, you know, you know, that smell that that you have when you when you when you hit a dental [00:12:15] surgery, it hits you straight in the face. Um, I remembered that and I was like, oh, I wonder what [00:12:20] he does. And then his kids were all in private schools. We weren’t, um, they [00:12:25] had nice holidays, you know, they had a nice lifestyle. So I used to ask my dad, I said, dad, what do they do? And he [00:12:30] said dentist. And that’s how I started to get interested in more because [00:12:35] it was Uncle Navin, uh, who was in Manchester. Um. Big respect to him and Uncle [00:12:40] Afzal. I was named after Uncle Obzl. Um, because my dad, um, [00:12:45] really liked him. He was a good man. Um, he’s retired orthodontist about a couple of years ago [00:12:50] now. So then we got familiar with with their families and, um.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:12:55] Little did you know, that was the Jedi mind trick your dad was playing.

Afzal Haque: Maybe. So I think I [00:13:00] think deep down, he wanted me to be a medic. But then I think he, you know, because he spent a lot of time with these guys, he [00:13:05] was like, these guys were good life.

Payman Langroudi: You could see they were happy.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, they were happy. They were successful. The kids were doing [00:13:10] well. And that’s all you want as a parent, don’t you? You want you know, all fathers, [00:13:15] mothers want them to do better than they’ve done. So that was his.

Payman Langroudi: Traditionally, I just follow the line, [00:13:20] go and say what happened next, what happened next? But I’m interested in the inflection point that took you to [00:13:25] Indo.

Afzal Haque: Oh, right. Yeah, yeah. Here we go.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s go straight there.

Afzal Haque: Let’s go straight there. Right.

Payman Langroudi: So so were you already quite [00:13:30] good at Indo as a general practitioner?

Afzal Haque: As a, as a, um newly qualified dentist. [00:13:35] I hated endo like.

Payman Langroudi: Like all.

Afzal Haque: Of us. Like all of us. No, but seriously hated it.

Payman Langroudi: Had you perforated in college? [00:13:40]

Afzal Haque: I’ve done everything. I’ve done everything.

Payman Langroudi: As a young.

Afzal Haque: Man. As a young man, I hated it. Um. And [00:13:45] when I got married to my wife in 2009, she and her sister, who’s also a dentist, they were doing [00:13:50] their own sort of, they were, um, opening up a practice and they had done and [00:13:55] they were kind of doing their own thing. I was doing.

Payman Langroudi: Qualified in India.

Afzal Haque: No, no no no. Um, my, my [00:14:00] wife, she qualified with me Manchester. She was in my year. Yeah yeah yeah. Sister qualified five years [00:14:05] um ahead of her. So the two of them were setting up a squat practice. So [00:14:10] she had bought all the equipment etc.. So very early on in our marriage, um, I, I just remember [00:14:15] the night before the endo, I just wouldn’t sleep, just wouldn’t, just wouldn’t sleep. And then she’d be like, what [00:14:20] is wrong with you? Why are you panicking? It’s just work. And I was like, I’ve got this endodontic treatment. Um, [00:14:25] I don’t know where to start. I’ve had some problems in the past. And she was like, why [00:14:30] are you so bothered about it? And she’s like, what are you using? And at that time, we weren’t taught rotary instrumentation [00:14:35] at university. Just hand files. I told her I’m using this, and we had this gigantic handpiece that [00:14:40] you put a file in and just does a quarter turn, basically reciprocation at the time. I had no idea [00:14:45] about other stuff. And then she was like, well, I’ve got this new kit, why don’t you use this? And I said, I don’t know about [00:14:50] this. I can’t just take this tomorrow. And she goes, tell you what. Um, I’ll come with [00:14:55] you one day. We’ll do some practice, then I’ll come with you and I’ll watch you do it and I’ll show you how to do. And that’s [00:15:00] how it started. As soon as I started to get used to this rotary stuff, I thought, this is amazing. What is [00:15:05] this? And then one treatment. Next treatment. Next. Start to get better and better. So that’s how [00:15:10] Endo started to get better at it. But then family came and everything came and I thought, right, how can I improve [00:15:15] my skills? So I took on a part time master’s.

Afzal Haque: So it’s 2012. [00:15:20] No start again, 2014. I started my son. Son had been born then. So [00:15:25] did that part time. That was simply a brilliant course. And at that time it was in it [00:15:30] was in South Manchester. So that’s how I started and that’s how I got better. But in 2013, [00:15:35] we got my we we bought our practice. So that was the environment I could start doing. [00:15:40] And so once I started to get know the patients a little bit, you know, we started, I started to do a bit more complex treatment [00:15:45] and started a bit more, you know, being a bit braver. And [00:15:50] that’s how that started initially. But I always were looking for the next stage. And I got [00:15:55] to a point where I said, well, I thought, how do I do this day in, day out? I wasn’t confident enough [00:16:00] at the time to just completely give up general dentistry. I thought that was my safety net and I did enjoy it to [00:16:05] a huge extent, really. But then it was in 2015, so [00:16:10] 2015, there was an endodontic conference in Southampton, and I went there to buy a microscope [00:16:15] because I was like, I’m formalising my education, I’m going to get the right equipment. And I was using Loupes at the time, [00:16:20] which was great, but I wanted to step it up. So we went to Southampton and I was looking for a microscope [00:16:25] and just seeing it like you do, see all the reps, see what the best deal is on the day. But my aim was to come back with a [00:16:30] deal. That was the aim. And I met my very good friend, colleague, [00:16:35] mentor Sanjay.

Payman Langroudi: Sanjay Bhandari for the first time.

Afzal Haque: No, no, I met him. I’ve known him through [00:16:40] the endo circles. He was actually my one of the tutors at undergrad at Manchester. So I [00:16:45] think he was, um, he was, he was relatively new to Manchester at the time and he [00:16:50] was teaching there as well. So I knew him. So he remembered me and he just, we just bumped into each other and said, oh, what [00:16:55] are you, what are you, what are you doing here? And I said, well, I’m interested in endo. I’m doing a little bit of endo. I’m doing the simply [00:17:00] endo course. He said, do you do a lot of it? I said, yeah, I do a fair amount. I said, but I want to get really better. [00:17:05] And he goes, why don’t you why don’t you become a specialist? I’m like, um, [00:17:10] because I’ve got wife, two kids. I live in Manchester and at [00:17:15] the time I only was aware of courses in London. So I live in Manchester. [00:17:20] There’s no way I’m going to, you know, down to London at the time, my brother in law um [00:17:25] is a specialist periodontist. He was doing his specialist training In in [00:17:30] the Eastman. Oh, so he was doing it then. So he was like, I’ve got a flat here. [00:17:35] Just come, come to London. I was like, well, it’s not as simple as that. Um, and recently we just bought [00:17:40] the practice. So 2015 we bought the practice 2013. So I was like, no, this is not [00:17:45] the right thing for me.

Afzal Haque: Then Sam said, um, why don’t you just do it in Liverpool? I’m like, what? Liverpool? [00:17:50] Apart from football, I didn’t know anything else about Liverpool. Um and he said, well they’ve [00:17:55] just started of course 2013. They just started um what we call the doctorate of um [00:18:00] dental science degree in endodontics. And it’s a three year full time specialist training course. He goes, [00:18:05] it’s local to you because I warn you, it’s hard work, but it’s doable because [00:18:10] of where you live. And he said, go and speak to the programme director, um [00:18:15] Prof. Prof. Gerard and just just get [00:18:20] a feel for it. So I came back with a microscope which my wife was absolutely [00:18:25] fuming. She’s like just spent God knows how much money. And this silly idea in her [00:18:30] mind at the time to to do this specialist training. But we thought [00:18:35] about it and then she was like, my wife was my it’s my biggest, biggest support, [00:18:40] biggest fan. And if it weren’t for her, there’s no way this would have happened. So she [00:18:45] was like thinking about this more. And she was like, you’re [00:18:50] good at this. We’ve got our own practice. We’re in our [00:18:55] 30s. Dental career, God willing, can be many, many years. What’s [00:19:00] three years if you can get on to it? And she [00:19:05] said, well, you must try, because I know now. But at [00:19:10] the back of her, she always wanted me to be the best I could be.

Afzal Haque: So she, she had a dream [00:19:15] that, you know, I’ll try and push him as far as he can. If he can make it to specialist level, that would be brilliant. [00:19:20] But she never. She never pushed me. But when this opportunity she got wind of it, she was like, right, okay. Um, [00:19:25] she said, go and meet them. Go to Liverpool, go meet, go meet Faddy. So I made an appointment, [00:19:30] went and saw Faddy and he was lovely. He was very nice. He showed me around [00:19:35] and he just said to me, look, this is really tough. Course it’s going to take over your life. You [00:19:40] cannot work in the in these three years. Um, I know you’ve got a practice. I [00:19:45] know you’ve done postgraduate training. Um, sorry. Um you’ve done postgraduate [00:19:50] master’s already. He goes but it’s very different. Um he goes, have a think about it. [00:19:55] And if you want to do it, my advice would be to make an application. [00:20:00] I was trying to read in between the lines. I was like, okay. And I had no, um, [00:20:05] prior to that, no formal, um, pathway. So I went from straight to [00:20:10] being an associate straight to owner of practice. So did a no show job, no publications, no CV, nothing. [00:20:15] My CV was just practice, practice, practice. I’m thinking I’m the wrong person to do this. Um, anyway, [00:20:20] so I went back and I said.

Payman Langroudi: What was the cost?

Afzal Haque: The cost at the time was about 20 grand a year, 20 [00:20:25] grand.

Payman Langroudi: A year. And the lost income.

Afzal Haque: And the lost income as well.

Payman Langroudi: So just the financial calculation was huge. I mean, [00:20:30] did you have to make changes at home?

Afzal Haque: Yeah. So then when when we came, when I came back and we did all the all the maths, my [00:20:35] wife said to me, she goes, you know what, forget about the money at the moment. Just go and apply. If you get [00:20:40] it, we’ll think about it. If you don’t get it, we’ll draw a line, move on. Nothing lost because I had [00:20:45] no expectation to do it because I’m not the right candidate and well, the right CV. Um, [00:20:50] so when I applied, I got the interview. Interview [00:20:55] went fine. The next day I got an email saying, you’ve [00:21:00] been very successful in the interview. We offer you a place on this course. This is March [00:21:05] 2016. Starting in September. I came, I told Zara, [00:21:10] I told my wife and she was like, well, she goes, well, you’re gonna have to do it, aren’t you? I was like, [00:21:15] what do you mean? I said, Zara, this is not a small amount of money we’ve invested. [00:21:20] We bought a house a few years prior to that. We’ve got a practice. All the money is tied up. [00:21:25] You know, we’ve got kids, we’ve got. How’s this going to happen? I haven’t got 60 grand, [00:21:30] you know, just sat there in my account to go and do this. And she was [00:21:35] like, she looked around and we sat in the house at this time, we sat in the front living room and she looked around and she goes, [00:21:40] this is just bricks and mortar. I was like, what? She [00:21:45] goes, we’re selling the house. I was like, Zara, do you understand what [00:21:50] you’re saying?

Payman Langroudi: Do you have children?

Afzal Haque: Yeah, I had two children. I had a four year old daughter and a two year old boy [00:21:55] at the time.

Payman Langroudi: What a cool chick, man.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, absolutely. She’s legend, absolute legend. So she [00:22:00] said to me, she goes just the way she did it. I remember it vividly. I’ll never forget it. We were sitting in the front room. The kids [00:22:05] were playing around. She goes, this is this is bricks and mortar. She goes, we’ll get rid of this. She goes, what I [00:22:10] don’t want to do is work more to support the house. I’d [00:22:15] rather go into a smaller property. My kids are very young at the moment. I’ll focus on the practice. I’ll do a little bit of work, but focus [00:22:20] on bringing up the kids. You go and do what you need to do. She goes because she [00:22:25] goes, we will. We can buy a house again in the future. She goes. They come [00:22:30] and they go. People upgrade all the time. You know, they move house all the time. She goes, this is setting [00:22:35] us up for the future and getting you to do what you want, [00:22:40] and you’ll be in the happiest place. Because although I like general dentistry, [00:22:45] um, I found it quite challenging, but [00:22:50] it suited me. So what? I couldn’t believe it. And I said, are you serious? So she she [00:22:55] started the process.

Payman Langroudi: She’s a wise person, but very.

Afzal Haque: Wise.

Payman Langroudi: Person. Go into that. Why? Why was [00:23:00] general dentistry challenging? And endo so peaceful. Like what was it? So what is it about endo? [00:23:05]

Afzal Haque: I just find it very relaxing. I find it very relaxing. I find [00:23:10] the fact that you’re treating disease the challenge, and I like that. [00:23:15] Um, I’m not saying the other parts of dentistry aren’t aren’t challenging.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not a salesman?

Afzal Haque: No, [00:23:20] not at all. Not at all. I like treating disease.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the best thing about endo. There’s no selling.

Afzal Haque: There’s no selling. No [00:23:25] selling whatsoever. It’s already sold. Um, and you just got to, when it comes to [00:23:30] me, literally in the most, most respect, I am the end of the line. Either [00:23:35] it’s going to work or it’s not going to work. And the patients really, really trust us. [00:23:40] So I found dentistry. I think dental is much harder than being a specialist. I think being a specialist [00:23:45] is actually very, very easy. My job now is brilliant. Um, general [00:23:50] dentists, you’ve got 15, 20 patients, 30, 40 patients depending on where you work, 40 [00:23:55] different personalities, 40 different problems.

Payman Langroudi: 40 different hellos and goodbyes and.

Afzal Haque: 40 different. [00:24:00]

Payman Langroudi: Solutions that.

Afzal Haque: You got to come up with on the spot. And I think it’s actually my wife do this and I think she’s great. I think [00:24:05] your job is actually harder than mine. It really is. And a lot of my colleagues [00:24:10] and, and people say to me, oh, it’s all right for you now because you only see [00:24:15] three, four patients a day. I said, it’s all right now, but the journey is the problem. It’s the biggest [00:24:20] challenge of the journey. So that’s why I found it challenging. It’s not that I couldn’t do it, and I [00:24:25] do miss aspects of general dentistry. Ten years I did it, I did the NHS, did the uda’s, took [00:24:30] the teeth out, immediate dentures, everything, all the composite stuff. Um, [00:24:35] but I found my niche there. I thought rubber dams on, I can get on with it. It’s nice and relaxing. [00:24:40]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s just get to the but the your in terms of your schedule. Yeah, yeah. How many days a [00:24:45] week are you seeing? Four patients a day.

Afzal Haque: So probably about three days. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And the others.

Afzal Haque: The others the one day [00:24:50] a week I work as a senior lecturer at a university in Lancashire. Yeah. Which is.

Payman Langroudi: Formally.

Afzal Haque: Uclan. [00:24:55] Yeah. Yeah. So I teach the they’ve just um started a new specialist [00:25:00] training programme um from, from this last September and it’s a doctorate um indent [00:25:05] where they will go on to become hopefully specialists in endodontics. [00:25:10] So I’m teaching them one day a week.

Payman Langroudi: And did you have anything to do with that syllabus.

Afzal Haque: Oh The [00:25:15] syllabus is all done with a lady called Shalini. She’s lovely. [00:25:20] She qualified at Kings specialist Endodontist. So she invited me to come and join [00:25:25] the team and it’s been brilliant. So I do that one day a week. I love teaching. Teaching is [00:25:30] my.

Payman Langroudi: Nice.

Afzal Haque: Man, I love it. It’s nice the way I think about teaching. My father’s a teacher [00:25:35] and he always said to me, he goes, if you can explain something to somebody, means that you’ve understood [00:25:40] it. Yeah. And and you know what you’re talking about. So that’s how I feel is like, if I can, if my [00:25:45] students can understand where I’m coming from, understand the concepts I’m trying [00:25:50] to, um, show them and, and they implement it, then job [00:25:55] done, job done. And it’s a great, it’s a great day. Um, so yeah, so that’s what I do on a Tuesday, [00:26:00] on a Friday I have, um, it’s officially a day off, but I use it as an [00:26:05] overspill day. So if I need some patients that need to be seen sooner and they can’t wait. [00:26:10] So I try and have a, um, a two week turnaround from referral to seeing [00:26:15] the patient. And if that’s getting busier, which it which it can do, it depends on the season. I’ll throw [00:26:20] in a Friday. Um, I also do a little bit of um. Work [00:26:25] for the CQC as well. So I’m not the inspector but I’m the guy [00:26:30] that goes along with the inspector. So that’s a new role that I took over. Um, and I do that ad [00:26:35] hoc as and when they may need me. So having the odd day here and there.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about that. Do you [00:26:40] have to get trained to do that?

Afzal Haque: Yeah. You do. So we as a practice got inspected about two and a half, three years ago now. And [00:26:45] um, the inspections now are so much better than they were when we first got inspected. So when [00:26:50] we took over the practice in 2013, literally week eight got a phone call. Right. We’re coming to inspect you [00:26:55] like we’ve just started, you know, what is all this all about? We’re in the middle of doing some building work as well. The [00:27:00] person that came was like an ex-banker and they were more interested on in the fact that, you know, [00:27:05] we couldn’t, you know, get rid of the dust as quick as it settled because we were having building works. We’re having [00:27:10] building work. Didn’t get that. Um, but it went fine. But this time was a proper, [00:27:15] you know, detailed inspection. And we used it as an opportunity to show off, not [00:27:20] as a we didn’t look at it as this is not going to be, um, you know, this [00:27:25] is gonna be bad. So my wife, um, she’s dead positive, dead positive, proper trooper. [00:27:30] She said to her staff, um, said to all of us and said, are we, are we gonna, um, [00:27:35] just pass this or are we, are we going or are we going to smash this? You’ve got two options.

Afzal Haque: I’m [00:27:40] going to go for smashing. We’re gonna smash it. And that’s the mentality [00:27:45] that we had. It was a lovely day and it went really well. So I, I thought to myself, [00:27:50] if this opportunity ever comes up, I’ll give it a go. Because when you’re on your own practice, it’s good to keep up with what’s going [00:27:55] on. It’s good to see what other people are doing. You learn from them. So it came up, I think there [00:28:00] was a there was a job of about 15, what they call s spars, which is specialist advisers, [00:28:05] um in the country. And I applied, I got interviewed. [00:28:10] I went. I got through it. They offered it me and the training for it. So it’s good we do it every so [00:28:15] probably do maybe 1 or 2 a month if I’m if I’m lucky. Um, but it’s nice. It’s [00:28:20] a nice little thing to do and keep up to date with the regulations. So nothing scary at all.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:28:25] the endo itself. Yeah. How much of it is from the referral, from the practice [00:28:30] and how much of it is referred from outside the practice?

Afzal Haque: I’ll be honest, 95% of my work is external. Comes from outside the practice. [00:28:35] Yeah, I get very little from my own practice. I will get some cases, but I actually did an audit [00:28:40] about this last year and I got about about 95% of my patients I saw were were [00:28:45] external referrals. So I’m heavily reliant on external referrals.

Payman Langroudi: That’s that life of being [00:28:50] a referral dentist. Your customer in a way is the general [00:28:55] dentist rather than the patient. The patient comes in under the rubber.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I [00:29:00] know there’s a general shortage of endodontists. Yeah. Is that the case? Is it?

Afzal Haque: Well um. [00:29:05] Specialists. Yes. Yeah. So registered specialists, I specialist. I don’t think there’s. Last time I looked there’s about 350 [00:29:10] registered.

Payman Langroudi: In the whole country.

Afzal Haque: The whole country. Um, having said that, mono [00:29:15] spec even less. A lot of those people who have got specialist title in endodontics are [00:29:20] restorative consultants. So they’re on all the lists. Uh, or they may have done restorative training [00:29:25] and they’re on prosto and they’re on endo. So the actual pure mono spec is, I don’t think there’s that many. [00:29:30] Um, but because of simply endo, because of uclan and other courses, there are a lot of [00:29:35] dentists who are, who are doing endo, who have got special interests. It’s essentially what I was essentially what [00:29:40] I was. Um, so, so it’s not as, um, what’s the [00:29:45] word I’m looking for now? It’s not as exclusive as it used to be. Um, so you’ve got [00:29:50] to work for your referrals. There’s got to be something special about it.

Payman Langroudi: So what I want to know outside of the clinical.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. [00:29:55]

Payman Langroudi: What do you, what do you if someone wants to be any referral. Referral. [00:30:00] Yeah. Dentist. What are what are tips tricks things that yeah. [00:30:05] Things that things that you should be aware of.

Afzal Haque: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So I mean, I guess, am I right that your day teaching [00:30:10] helps bring in some referrals?

Afzal Haque: So my day teaching is I’m, I’m teaching postgraduates, so I’m [00:30:15] teaching my competition. That’s essentially what I’m teaching. But the reason why I do that is because.

Payman Langroudi: Just [00:30:20] to be on top.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, because a lot of stuff that gets referred to the hospital is stuff that generally doesn’t happen [00:30:25] in practice. So it’s good to know and be at the forefront of the, of the knowledge and the research. [00:30:30] But yeah, going back to, um, how, how you.

Payman Langroudi: How you find new referring dentists.

Afzal Haque: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So word [00:30:35] of mouth.

Afzal Haque: So I’ve done a few, a few webinars. I do a few. So I’m keeping [00:30:40] in leader for oxidant as I use their, their files agenda. I’ve been using them for last [00:30:45] 2 or 3 years. I’ve used everything, but these are the ones I click with. So I’ve created a relationship with them [00:30:50] and through them I’ve done a few webinars that gets me the odd person.

Payman Langroudi: Did you do that on purpose or did they find [00:30:55] you?

Afzal Haque: So they found me. So, um, they had a rep who was actually Manchester based, and I get [00:31:00] lots of reps that come in and say, oh, do you want to use that? I use everyone’s file because I give everyone a chance. Um, [00:31:05] you don’t know what you don’t know. And there may be something that comes up that that is absolutely amazing. So I’ve [00:31:10] used every system, some systems I gel with, some systems I’ve not gel with and their [00:31:15] system I did gel with. So we created a relationship. Um, [00:31:20] I use them now exclusively. Um, and I, when I do my teaching, I do [00:31:25] teach their system, but other systems are just whatever works for you [00:31:30] is essentially the, the answer to that. But, um, through them, I’ve managed to do a few webinars [00:31:35] and that helps get some interest. Yeah. I’ve done a few, um, webinars [00:31:40] for PhDs as well about career, uh, pathway, like how one has become [00:31:45] an endodontist that’s really helped because that creates interest, but also people [00:31:50] want to come and shadow. So that’s a lot, a lot of things that, um, now [00:31:55] nowadays I’m getting a lot of people coming to shadow. So they’re saying, oh, can we come and watch you? So they’ll spend a whole day [00:32:00] with me. Um, and that really helps because they’ll do endo themselves a little bit better. But then they’ll, it’ll [00:32:05] help them recognise the cases that they feel is beyond them. And a lot of it is about assessment and just knowing [00:32:10] what I can do and what, what the other guy, what, what could be referred [00:32:15] because you should be doing it. In all reality, all dentists are trained to do it, so [00:32:20] they should be doing it. But the um, the clever ones are the ones who can recognise. [00:32:25]

Payman Langroudi: Which cases.

Afzal Haque: Which cases is the one I should be taking on. And sometimes we [00:32:30] just get dentists just phoning me up. So I’m going to treat this case today. Um, if you’ve got [00:32:35] any advice for me and I’d be happy to spend the time with them. Um, and if they, they’ll ask me, [00:32:40] some of them will ask me, should I be doing this? And I’ll just go into a bit more detail and find out, you [00:32:45] know, how much they’ve done, what they’re comfortable with. And then through that, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll work out whether [00:32:50] it’s right for them or not. So yeah. And as soon as I’ve got a new referral, it’s creating [00:32:55] a good relationship with them, like giving them a call, um, have a chat with them. Um. Try [00:33:00] and see the patient quickly and try and get the, the the correspondence [00:33:05] out quickly. And if there’s any issues have free rein range for them [00:33:10] to come and speak to you. I think that’s what builds up, builds up good relationships. You know, we send everybody a little [00:33:15] gift over the over the Christmas and New Year. That always helps. But it’s relationships. [00:33:20] I think when the patients come in, um, from the referring dentist, I think [00:33:25] one of the good things is, is I always like to big up their dentist.

Afzal Haque: And [00:33:30] because I get most, most happen to so many referring dentists, [00:33:35] why can’t my dentist do this? Why have I got to pay you £1,000? And [00:33:40] my dentist does root canal for £75? And why have I got [00:33:45] to pay you? So part of the conversation is the spiel. Yeah. The part of [00:33:50] the conversation is, well, you don’t realise how lucky you are to have that dentist because they’ve spotted [00:33:55] something that is beyond what what they feel comfortable doing [00:34:00] and should they should. Should they have done that? You’d be in a worse off position. So, you know, [00:34:05] I agree. You’ve got to pay to come and see me, but you should be congratulating your dentist because I am. And [00:34:10] they turn around and go, oh wow. And when you show them the radiograph showed them [00:34:15] the extreme curvatures or calcification, you know, point it out and explain [00:34:20] I use a microscope, etc., etc. that that really helps. And I think they go back to because we [00:34:25] have a policy, we don’t, because I’ve got a general practice attached to my referral practice. We don’t take any patients on that. Come [00:34:30] on. That’s that’s a rule.

Payman Langroudi: And you send them back with the only sold no.

Afzal Haque: Yes, 100% [00:34:35] Cuspal coverage. Um, will be sold. Uh, they’ll go back with a course as [00:34:40] little the dentist needs to do. All they do is prep the tooth. That’s my philosophy. Do as much as I [00:34:45] can to help that help the dentist. Uh, and they’ll be getting a crown. Um, [00:34:50] so that is really important to have that relationship to make sure they get something out of it as well. Otherwise you’re not going [00:34:55] to have any anyone referring, but.

Payman Langroudi: Do you want education days at the practice as [00:35:00] well?

Afzal Haque: So have done. Yeah. So I’ve done a few um evening study clubs. So um [00:35:05] we get, we get opted in to help us a little bit and then they, they will help me get [00:35:10] um, all the, all the, you know, flyers out etc. and we, we, we [00:35:15] invite about 10 to 10, ten delegates in and we’ll do, we’ll talk about access [00:35:20] or we’ll talk about some diagnosis, something quite simple that they can go away and, and utilise [00:35:25] the next day and we’ll have a little hands on session as well.

Payman Langroudi: So. And are there some dentists that refer all their endo to you.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, [00:35:30] there are a few.

Payman Langroudi: Just there are a few.

Afzal Haque: So, so there’s some dentists who are excellent [00:35:35] implant dentists. Yeah. So they still do general dentistry, but they will do majority of their [00:35:40] expertise work is implants. So when they’re taking these scans they may find few lesions here [00:35:45] and there. And I’m finding implant dentists um are very good [00:35:50] at kind of wanting to save teeth. They’re not so much wanting to place the implant in unless it’s necessary. [00:35:55] So they will refer those cases. So I love those dentists.

Payman Langroudi: Five years [00:36:00] out to start enlightened. Yeah. And then when I came back, everyone was on rotary. Yeah [00:36:05] yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. I had never done rotary. Yeah yeah yeah. So when I came back I said I’m not gonna do any more. But [00:36:10] it’s one of the features of referral practice that you’ve got. [00:36:15] I don’t know how many of those like 4 or 5 people like that who have too much power [00:36:20] over you because all it takes is for a couple of them to drop [00:36:25] off, whether they sell their practice.

Afzal Haque: Or they move somewhere, move somewhere. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s [00:36:30] a major effect on your business.

Afzal Haque: It does.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. And I was surprised to learn that, you know, even [00:36:35] the super famous guys in all specialities have got [00:36:40] a churn rate. I mean, there’s a there’s a rate of people constantly dropping, dropping off.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you have to constantly [00:36:45] be putting them in. So that’s why.

Afzal Haque: It’s so important to keep doing these things, keep inviting people into the [00:36:50] practice. Because you’re right, either they retire.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Afzal Haque: Or they go or they do [00:36:55] or they leave NHS practice. Yeah. And they go to private practice and they start doing a bit more themselves. Found that happened [00:37:00] in Covid a lot because the private industry went like that. Yeah, yeah. So everyone [00:37:05] was doing their own endo.

Payman Langroudi: It kind of woke people up.

Afzal Haque: And everyone upskilled everyone upskilled, [00:37:10] which is great, which is great for the, for individuals and, and dentists as a whole. But I [00:37:15] noticed at that time referrals reduced a lot because um, people [00:37:20] were doing their own. And then the cases you would get were all the, the challenging cases because they’ve not gone well [00:37:25] or there’s a problem that’s happened. Yeah. Um, I think that’s levelled out a bit now because now NHS has [00:37:30] gone back to normal and people are back on the um doing their udas. So yeah, you’re right. So it’s [00:37:35] constantly having to, you know, be out there and.

Payman Langroudi: While we’re still on the business [00:37:40] side.

Afzal Haque: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What do you charge the same amount for all teeth. You charge [00:37:45] one for back teeth, one for front.

Afzal Haque: So so I’ve kept it very simple. So I know a lot of my colleagues [00:37:50] and friends, they will have an anterior to posterior tooth at one visit fee or two visit fee. So I have [00:37:55] essentially three fees. Fee number one is consultation fee. And I [00:38:00] make sure I consult everybody, as many people as I can. And people ask [00:38:05] me, why do I need to do that? And the reason I do that, because I think it’s [00:38:10] so good to build that rapport with that patient. Yeah it does. You do lose time. It’s not as [00:38:15] financially beneficial, but you’ve won that patient. They know exactly [00:38:20] what their problem is. They need to understand it, and they need to understand it at a time where they can process it and not say, hi, how are you? Yeah, [00:38:25] you’ve got this upper left six and he’s doing your dentist. It needs to be done right. Um, my name is Afzal. These [00:38:30] are the risks. Here we go. Here’s the local get started. That works for a lot of people. And I get that for me doesn’t [00:38:35] I like the, um, the human touch where I’m gonna get to know them, find out [00:38:40] a bit about them.

Afzal Haque: So I spend about 30 minutes to do that. And once they’ve signed [00:38:45] up, the next fee is the treatment fee. So it doesn’t matter whether it’s a front tooth or a back tooth, a primary [00:38:50] treatment or a retreatment. I charge the same fee. And my philosophy behind that is because nothing [00:38:55] that comes to me is going to be easy. So a front tooth is never going to be an easy, uh, [00:39:00] an easy endo or a primo is never gonna be easy. And it’s always going to be a calcified tooth. It’s going [00:39:05] to be strategically very important. It’s going to have some issue. So just to keep it easy, [00:39:10] one fee and the last fee if we do surgical endodontics. And that’s [00:39:15] one thing. So I that’s how I keep it. I don’t there may be some [00:39:20] caveats as well. Like, for example, if they need a post and that dentist asked me, then there might be a little bit here and there, but if they’re [00:39:25] paying close to £1,000, an extra 50, £60 is not going to break the bank for them. So I’ve kept [00:39:30] it very simple. So the Referrers know, three fees, consultation fee, treatment fee and surgery. [00:39:35]

Payman Langroudi: The restorative build up I built that.

Afzal Haque: Can be fee. I built it into the [00:39:40] fee.

Payman Langroudi: But sometimes that’s a big.

Afzal Haque: It can be a.

Payman Langroudi: Deal or no deal at all.

Afzal Haque: The [00:39:45] way I look at it, it’s like udas.

Payman Langroudi: Swings and roundabouts.

Afzal Haque: Swings and roundabouts. Yeah, you’ll get one. That’s very simple. I’ll do in ten minutes [00:39:50] and one I will know I have to spend a bit longer with. So that’s what the consultation is very important.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:39:55] it is you who does that. So deep marginalisation the whole thing.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. I’ll do it as much as I can. [00:40:00] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Cutting gum, putting them.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. So I will assess that at the consultation. So [00:40:05] if I looked at.

Payman Langroudi: You.

Afzal Haque: It’s a big deal restoration. So I’ll book my time accordingly. Yeah. So I [00:40:10] might book, you know, for, for the first. So I’ll say the first visit, I might spend 90 minutes. [00:40:15] But the second visit, you know, I might not, I might get to the end or done or majority done [00:40:20] on second visit. I just need time to operate and build up the tooth. So I might not have to book as long or might be the opposite [00:40:25] where I’m after second visit might be longer because I’ve got to control the gingiva. I’ve got to control the bleeding, [00:40:30] all that. So I’ve built that into the fee. Um, I just want referrers to find it easy [00:40:35] to refer. And so I can tell the patients is this and this that’s it. [00:40:40]

Payman Langroudi: And how much of your day is spent filling out like the communication back to the dentist. [00:40:45] So every day you.

Afzal Haque: Have to do everything. But. But I’ve started to use AI.

Payman Langroudi: Have [00:40:50] you?

Afzal Haque: Yeah, yeah. So I use, um, a program called Heidi and it’s, I think it’s [00:40:55] Australian originally designed for medics. But once you play with it, [00:41:00] start, start playing with it. It’s fantastic at writing letters. So I can just dictate into it [00:41:05] and it will devise a letter. And before that patient has left the building, the letters done. [00:41:10] Oh, so I’ve got a very good team. That’s one thing I’ve got that I’m very lucky. And [00:41:15] it’s taken us years to get this, uh, again, with the driving force, she makes sure my [00:41:20] life is as easy as possible because it’s our reputation, it’s referrers that we want [00:41:25] to be happy and we want it all to go smoothly. So she’s recruited the best nurses [00:41:30] to work with me, to be able to make sure that journey is is so smooth from [00:41:35] phone call to discharge. That whole journey has to be bang [00:41:40] on. So even when I’m not there, like I’m, I’m not there today, but we may have an endodontic [00:41:45] emergency or somebody that’s been niggling the tooth niggling the.

Payman Langroudi: Post.

Afzal Haque: Op. [00:41:50] Post op. Yeah. Yeah. Although I’ve mentioned it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Afzal Haque: But we will. Oh. Everyone gets a courtesy [00:41:55] call. So the staff are on it. And if there’s any problems, they are so well equipped to deal [00:42:00] with that problem that generally we won’t need to see that patient again or we, you know, [00:42:05] they will reassure them and we can sort them out at some point. So having the team, [00:42:10] my work doesn’t become, um, half as good as it can be without the staff. [00:42:15] Yeah, sure. Absolutely. They are like my my left arm, for [00:42:20] example.

Payman Langroudi: Are you the highest earner.

Afzal Haque: In the practice? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s weird, man, because you almost [00:42:25] know how much you’re going to earn every day. There’s no.

Afzal Haque: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There’s not much variation.

Afzal Haque: There’s not much variation. There [00:42:30] will be the odd one where you open up the tooth and there’s a big crack in it. Yeah. And then you’re like, well, I booked out 90 minutes. [00:42:35] And I’m not only going to get a proportion of the fee, but that’s okay. That again is [00:42:40] swings and roundabouts. You can’t plan for these things. Sometimes it’s very obvious before you even start, but, [00:42:45] um. Oh, am I doing what’s called an investigation? So the patient knows that at this point we might [00:42:50] stop. So might book a shorter appointment and the fees set. So yeah, it can be. [00:42:55] But the hardest thing is just getting that flow of referrals in regularly. And, and [00:43:00] that takes time. So I’ve been on my own for about since 2022. [00:43:05] So I worked a little bit. I, I’ve been on my own for a long time to [00:43:10] be fair, but I really focussed on my own personal referrals from about I just after Covid, [00:43:15] just after Covid. So, um, yeah, but it’s going well, it’s going well.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the kind of goal here? Is [00:43:20] the goal that eventually you’ll have another endodontist, right? Yeah.

Afzal Haque: So, so so I in an ideal world, [00:43:25] I don’t ever want to retire. I mean, I’m saying that at the moment, but I’m [00:43:30] 43, 43. I love my work. Since I’ve become an endodontist, [00:43:35] going to work is just not a problem. I just go, it’s fine. I think with any referral [00:43:40] stuff, You kind of know what’s going, especially with, you know, you know what you’re doing before the patients even [00:43:45] come in and you’ve seen the radiograph, you kind of know what’s going on. You’ve just got to gel with the patient and you get on with [00:43:50] it. So the goal is to have four, five, six days worth [00:43:55] of endodontics. Um at the moment I’ve got about three days and that’s plenty for me. But as [00:44:00] soon as we start moving to day four and day five, I’d love to get a, a colleague to [00:44:05] work with me.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and how does it work associate wise? Is it like 5050? [00:44:10]

Afzal Haque: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah. So I also, um, do a day, um, a couple of [00:44:15] days a month for my friend who’s, who’s got a practice about 20 miles from where we live. He’s [00:44:20] actually my implant surgeon. So he’s been working for me for about 7 or 8 years. But when he bought his practice [00:44:25] about three years ago, he asked me, would I come over there? So I have an associate agreement with him and it’s [00:44:30] a 50%. And that is I think that’s fair. That’s absolutely fair. I wouldn’t want any more. [00:44:35] I think anything less is is is 50%. It’s just.

Payman Langroudi: Bang on. As [00:44:40] a specialist, you deserve 50%.

Afzal Haque: I think so. I think so. Um, I mean, you hear lots of [00:44:45] things about percentages, but I always say to new graduates, who are they ask me. [00:44:50] Oh, well, they’re giving me 40% or 35%. I said, don’t focus on percentages because [00:44:55] 50, 40% of a big number is better than 50% of a small number. And, you know, look at where [00:45:00] you are, what you’re going to get out of that practice is any mentorship, anyone you can, you can learn from, [00:45:05] um, things that money won’t, won’t buy. Um, and look at your progression. [00:45:10] So I think 50% is fair. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get on to endo. It’s funny, I’ve talked endo [00:45:15] more than I’ve talked to anything else on this podcast, but it is advice I give young dentists. Yeah, that [00:45:20] too many people don’t think of endo as a because it was hard. Yeah. Undergrad.

Afzal Haque: Well, [00:45:25] that’s.

Payman Langroudi: What they just they just think to themselves, you know, they script themselves and thinking, forget endo [00:45:30] kind of implants too, right? Like surgeries and things. People just don’t like blood. Yeah. But [00:45:35] let’s talk about endo.

Afzal Haque: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is there like a. Firstly, I’m [00:45:40] quite interested in like endo porn for you.

Afzal Haque: There’s [00:45:45] lots of it around.

Payman Langroudi: Like what’s what’s your version of that? Is it like, like, who’s [00:45:50] like an endo hero of yours? And why?

Afzal Haque: Why do you know what? I don’t actually know names, but there’s a lot of American [00:45:55] guys out there that have.

Payman Langroudi: What are they doing? Like, what is it that they’re doing?

Afzal Haque: Is it they’re doing the same [00:46:00] thing as us, but they seem to have all these beautiful looking X-rays. [00:46:05] Uh, very nice. Dense white lines, sharp curves, lovely little puffs at the end [00:46:10] of the routes. They look amazing. There’s another chap in in Dublin. Um, [00:46:15] I forget his name at the moment. He’s on Instagram and his stuff is just brilliant. He’s like very minimally prepped and [00:46:20] this beautiful white lines, you can tell he’s filled the whole anatomy and and [00:46:25] you think, oh, how do they do that? But it’s a, it’s another level that it’s um, yeah. [00:46:30] So, so I can’t remember names.

Payman Langroudi: There’s ninja access. You like that, you know.

Afzal Haque: Well, funny [00:46:35] you should say that gave you a webinar about this last week. And, um, I’m not a big fan of ninja [00:46:40] access because it, it restricts what you can do. It’s great for a photograph and if you [00:46:45] can get it done and it all goes well, all well and good, but there’s more chance of [00:46:50] causing problems by doing that. Now, no one’s saying cut a big hole in it that you know you’ve completely destroyed [00:46:55] the truth. Be conservative, be, you know, follow the principles of endodontics, straight [00:47:00] line access. That’s what we want. We want to be able to see what we’re doing. Why do we want to put extra pressure and [00:47:05] stress on, on our files just so that we can have very, very tiny [00:47:10] access for Instagram, for Instagram? Well, essentially what it is. Yeah, there is a theory and I do agree with it that, you [00:47:15] know, it’s going to be better for the tooth long term if you remove less, but not if you if you can’t get all the bugs out. So [00:47:20] it’s a balancing act, isn’t it? So they look great. I’ve done a few. [00:47:25] And let me tell you, at the end it was a lot harder sweating a lot more. Yeah, [00:47:30] sweating a lot more. And then you have to.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t get your irrigant properly, right? There’s things [00:47:35] like that.

Afzal Haque: Things, things like that make a big difference. So endo is not just the files. 50% of it is [00:47:40] is the irrigation and the activation. And if you’ve got very tiny access, how are you going to activate [00:47:45] that irrigant. So you’ve got to ask yourself all these questions.

Payman Langroudi: And do you guys like do you would [00:47:50] do you and Sanj and um, Rob and [00:47:55] Amal do like the same thing? So is there, is there [00:48:00] like one thing you do differently to know?

Afzal Haque: So I would say Amar, Rob and myself, because we’ve all been trained [00:48:05] in the same institution. We’re all a Liverpool grads. Post-grads we probably do something very, very similar. Uh, [00:48:10] and we all talk to each other. We’ve got little a little endo group. It’s more like, you know, PTSD, [00:48:15] DSC, endo group. You know, we still survived like [00:48:20] a kind of group.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a barrel of laughs.

Afzal Haque: A barrel of laughs.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Afzal Haque: So there’s always someone asking about a [00:48:25] sealer or something silly like that. And it’s like, it’s like anyway. Um, so, but Rob and I, [00:48:30] and I, and I, we, we will discuss cases. So we’ve got a very similar sort of way of working. Um [00:48:35] Sanjay I would I have watched him work. I mean, we’re not too dissimilar to him. [00:48:40] The difference is he’s been doing it a lot longer than us. Um, his techniques I’ve [00:48:45] adapted the way I work by watching him. So I watched, you know, um, I’d say growing up, but yeah, [00:48:50] growing up as an endodontist, um, him and there was a, a lovely chap who sadly [00:48:55] passed away called Mark Hunter. He was a very kind and gentle endodontist in [00:49:00] South Manchester. Um, I think he actually taught Sanjay when Sandra was doing his, [00:49:05] his endo training and I watched both of them. And what I learnt was [00:49:10] lovely patient management and the holistic approach from Mark Sanjay [00:49:15] showed me that as well. But he also showed me how to be efficient with endodontics. And I think I’ve adapted [00:49:20] a lot of his efficiency into my daily practice. So it’s because at the end of the day, you’ve got to get it done. [00:49:25]

Payman Langroudi: You can do it faster.

Afzal Haque: You can do it a lot faster. Yeah. Um, so Mark would take, uh, two visits, [00:49:30] pretty much every case, three hours at a time, potentially. Um, which is great. [00:49:35] And that worked for him and that was perfect for him. Sandra’s a lot quicker, a lot more single visit [00:49:40] treatment, um, and getting things done within 90 minutes. Um, so that’s what I learned [00:49:45] from him how to be very efficient. And it’s great having the two contrasts because you can [00:49:50] pick up so much from both. Uh, sandwich is extremely efficient. Uh, and [00:49:55] Mark was, um, he took his time, but I learned that of, you [00:50:00] know, patient care and all that kind of thing. Not saying that sandwich can’t do that. It’s just different. [00:50:05] Yeah. Um, but then you take aspects of both and put it into your practice saying, well, this is [00:50:10] why I do a consultation. So my, um, philosophy of consultation came from [00:50:15] Mark. He consulted everybody where Sandra will do some and not and not others. Um, and that’s [00:50:20] fine, but that’s how I learned. So it’s brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: Um have you done any training in the US [00:50:25] or. No.

Afzal Haque: That’s something I would love to do. Um, so they run courses [00:50:30] in I think in the US, but they take you to South America somewhere weird, Nicaragua [00:50:35] or something like that. And it’s more surgical stuff. And that’s where I want [00:50:40] to really up my game because I do surgery. Um, but the way the Americans do it is, [00:50:45] is a lot different to how we do it. They’re very efficient. It’s something that is part of their daily practice. We’ll [00:50:50] do, uh, maybe the odd 1 or 2 a month, um, maybe a bit more.

Payman Langroudi: But to me, yeah.

Afzal Haque: To [00:50:55] me, but for them, it’s a regular part of the practice. So yeah, if I, if I’m [00:51:00] to do more, I’d love to go America.

Payman Langroudi: Is Apicectomy is less apicectomy happening these [00:51:05] days because more like more and those got better. Yeah, yeah.

Afzal Haque: There is that as well. But there’s always [00:51:10] going to be, uh, an element of it. So we get a lot of cases that are sent to us by very good general dentists [00:51:15] who have done everything under correct protocols, use all the right stuff. And then you think, well, [00:51:20] if they’ve done it so well, you know, what am I actually going to do to, to improve this? It’s, you know, [00:51:25] the X-rays, the root fillings right to the end of the root. Everything looks great. So then having that surgical [00:51:30] skill is quite important because if you can’t retreat it.

Payman Langroudi: There’s nowhere.

Afzal Haque: Else to go. There’s nowhere else to [00:51:35] go. And you know, patient may save it, save some money and you won’t need an implant. You might [00:51:40] get a few more years out of the out of the tooth. So I think it’s a great skill to have, which we do do it. But [00:51:45] in America, they’re very good at doing posterior teeth and things like that. So it’s a bit [00:51:50] more kind of um, it’s a bit more speciality I suppose there um within endodontists.

Payman Langroudi: Something about [00:51:55] endo that most generalists get wrong.

Afzal Haque: I think it’s diagnosis. I think tooth [00:52:00] is TTP it needs endo. Um tooth is sensitive [00:52:05] while I’m doing a crown, a crown prep. Um, can you do endo. It’s [00:52:10] TTP is not a diagnosis for endodontics. It’s, it’s part of the diagnosis. [00:52:15] It might tell you that that tooth then.

Payman Langroudi: Filling.

Afzal Haque: High filling or um, [00:52:20] bruxism, something like that. Yeah. They may have had a little bit of local trauma. Um But [00:52:25] that in itself is not a reason to do endo. Um, I find a lot of general dentists that do [00:52:30] refer to me, um, they’ve learned over the time because I tell them how [00:52:35] to do it, you know, do simple things like cold testing, just do the cold test and do that tooth and do another tooth and do it from [00:52:40] different parts on the tooth, because sometimes they’ll do it too high on the tooth and we should be doing [00:52:45] it a little bit lower down towards the gingival margin, and then you’ll get a bit of a better response. Um, things [00:52:50] like that is quite important. It’s getting the diagnosis right.

Payman Langroudi: So what’s the point. You said.

Afzal Haque: That. Yeah. [00:52:55] I find that because and also um pain management.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. [00:53:00]

Afzal Haque: It’s hard to get pulpitis tooth numb. And it’s very [00:53:05] easy for us because by the time it comes to us, it’s become necrotic. So I find that, you know, that [00:53:10] is a skill to have. And it’s just being a little bit more, um, aware of the anatomy [00:53:15] and, and just going for it really and just trying to get that patient out of pain. Um. [00:53:20] Reducing the amount of antibiotics used if possible. [00:53:25] Because antibiotics is not the first line. We need to open up these teeth. Release the [00:53:30] pressure. Um, the other thing I find um, should be better taught is [00:53:35] how to deal with emergencies. Um, we don’t need to put files in teeth. Oh no. [00:53:40] So if you’ve got pulpitis tooth, they literally need to open up the pulp chamber, release the pressure. [00:53:45] And essentially, um, if they can do under a rubber dam, brilliant. A little bit of hypochlorite to, [00:53:50] to wash the coronal pulp and just medicate that the minute they put files in the.

Payman Langroudi: Medicate it with.

Afzal Haque: With, [00:53:55] with like leather mix or something like that. Yes. And like an anti-inflammatory steroid, the minute they put files [00:54:00] in the tooth. Now my.

Payman Langroudi: Complicated.

Afzal Haque: To you might complicate it, but the thing is they’ve also got to [00:54:05] remember where did all the bugs live? They live at the top of the tooth. So so if you’re putting a file down [00:54:10] and if you’ve got no intention at that appointment to do the endo, then you’re literally pushing the bugs from the top [00:54:15] to the bottom. And what happens after that? They have patients get a post-operative flare up. And [00:54:20] that’s not a great practice builder.

Payman Langroudi: Because.

Afzal Haque: I came to you in pain and I’m worse pain now. [00:54:25] Some cases will be the exception and there will be ones that we won’t get it right. But [00:54:30] I try and teach um general dentists is is just get the coronal pulp out. Medicate [00:54:35] it, dress it, bring them back another day when you’re ready to do the endodontics or refer it on. Also [00:54:40] alleging the file goes into the tooth can’t get to the apex and keep [00:54:45] tapping tapping tapping. And it’s essentially alleged it. So when it comes to us, it’s becomes much more difficult case. [00:54:50] So the way.

Payman Langroudi: You do about it actually.

Afzal Haque: What to do about the ledge, you have to manage it.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:54:55] you you have to know it’s there.

Afzal Haque: Well, you can’t see it on a radiograph. So you feel [00:55:00] it when you go in and you think this file’s not going anywhere. And then you know, it’s been accessed. So you [00:55:05] kind of, you know.

Payman Langroudi: You do, you kind of pretend.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. [00:55:10] So so I put little sharp bends on the end of my files. And essentially what I’m trying to [00:55:15] do is walk it down the canal and just see if it, if it just, you know, sits past it and just [00:55:20] catches somewhere. If it catches somewhere, you know, you get that warm feeling inside. I’m going [00:55:25] somewhere and you try and smooth that out. Ledges is probably one of the worst things [00:55:30] that we have to deal with. It’s horrible. It can take it can turn a treatment from an hour [00:55:35] to double it. Um, and I might end up just working on that one canal for that session [00:55:40] because it can be that difficult to, you know, to get past it. Once you’re past it and [00:55:45] you smooth it, you’re back to normal again. But that can be avoided a lot of the time. Um, [00:55:50] especially in emergency appointments, I think we’ve got this philosophy that we stick files in teeth. We don’t [00:55:55] not for pulp teeth. We can just medicate it and and you’ll be surprised. Patients will will [00:56:00] get out of pain once that medication starts to work. And just painkillers, you know, giving [00:56:05] the right post-op advice. Tell them it’s going to be sore for a few days. So the expectation is already [00:56:10] there. Um, so they’ll deal with it. And patients tend to tend to not bother you if. [00:56:15]

Payman Langroudi: Look, I know it depends on the dentist. Should generalists ever do re [00:56:20] endo.

Afzal Haque: If they’ve got the skill set for it? Yes.

Payman Langroudi: It depends.

Afzal Haque: It depends on the dentist.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:56:25] yeah should they not.

Afzal Haque: I would say re endo is probably the majority of my work [00:56:30] is re endo. Yeah. Re endo um resorption these sort of cases [00:56:35] calcified canal.

Payman Langroudi: So you look at you look at the first day you kind of say I can see [00:56:40] that’s not a very good endo sometimes. Yeah. Other times you don’t.

Afzal Haque: Other times there’s a brilliant endo. [00:56:45]

Payman Langroudi: But but but the quality of endo is less is not just the X-ray is it 100%. [00:56:50] It could be the way they used irrigant. It could be the salivary.

Afzal Haque: Absolutely. You’ve hit the nail [00:56:55] on the head. So just because it’s a nice, beautiful line, it could have been washed with water. Yeah. Or [00:57:00] nothing. So you’ve got to take into mind. So these are the questions that I kind of will ask the patient. So if it’s [00:57:05] a recent endo they will generally remember if they’ve had rubber dam smell bleach or even tasted it. [00:57:10] Um, but if it’s a really old one, um, then it’s the question is, [00:57:15] AM I going to. Am I going to retreat it now? You’d be surprised if it’s quite [00:57:20] infected. And it’s such. And it looks like a lovely root canal treatment. Sometimes that GP will come out [00:57:25] quite easily because there’s infection around it. Yeah. And it’s not as bad as it looks on the X-ray. So it’s all [00:57:30] about having the right conversation with the patient, you know, giving them the options because not everyone wants to go through surgery. [00:57:35] Yeah. And, and I kind of explained, look, it’s the end of the line here. If we [00:57:40] can do something with this tooth, we will try. And what would you want to do. And [00:57:45] we’ll build in the the fee. So if we on the first visit, if I can’t [00:57:50] remove everything or there’s a problem, we can’t get to length there, the chances are if it’s got a big area on the end of the roots [00:57:55] and I can’t get to the length, it’s not going to heal. So I need surgery or extraction. And then patients [00:58:00] can be quite accepting of that because you’ve given it a go. You’ve explained it all and [00:58:05] they know they’ve got another option. If if um the retreatment doesn’t work. So [00:58:10] there is um it’s all about communication really. It’s like the happiest dentists, [00:58:15] I feel, are the ones who communicate really, really well and the ones who don’t get into trouble. Lots of things can go [00:58:20] wrong, but if you communicated well, generally you don’t have problems. But that’s what experience [00:58:25] is.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, it’s so interesting, man, because you could have two dentists, same [00:58:30] treatment, same outcome. Yeah. Two different communications. One, one [00:58:35] patient will adore you and one patient might be suing you.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So I [00:58:40] get that. I get people like, oh, do I need to, you know, should I complain to my dentist? Well, no, you [00:58:45] know, that’s the reason why you’re here. So we have to kind of I have to be very careful [00:58:50] with the language that we use with, with patients, because you don’t want to get your dentist [00:58:55] into, into hot water. Um, and some of the treatments may not be great [00:59:00] and it’s just how you project that to the patient. Um, and I explained [00:59:05] that these teeth are difficult. Root canals are very challenging treatment modality that we do. [00:59:10] Very, very difficult. Um. And that’s why you’re here.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:59:15] how come he hasn’t moved on, man? Like, why isn’t there a different filling material than JP?

Afzal Haque: I don’t know. It works. [00:59:20] It’s been working for years, hasn’t it? So filling materials not worked. Sorry, not changed much. But [00:59:25] the sealers have. So initially GP was our main filling [00:59:30] material. Like just got to get that GP everywhere. Yeah. So it was [00:59:35] a GP based obturation. Now we use these calcium silicate [00:59:40] MTA based what we call bioceramics which have really changed the um the [00:59:45] modern endodontics. So now it’s become.

Payman Langroudi: That’s feeling that all the that’s getting [00:59:50] canals.

Afzal Haque: And that’s getting everywhere and it’s almost come full circle. So we call it now a sealer [00:59:55] based Obturation. Whereas the GP is just the carrier. It’s just a carrier that [01:00:00] takes it to the apex. That’s interesting. That’s all it is. And it’s a medium to, [01:00:05] to be able to remove because bioceramics when it sets, it sets rock hard. Trying to retreat [01:00:10] a bioceramic case is very difficult. I’ve had to retreat some of my own that I did make five years ago, um [01:00:15] or longer. And it’s really difficult because it sets rock hard. But that GP [01:00:20] is the pathway to try and get you.

Payman Langroudi: Antibacterial as well.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. It’s antibacterial, it’s high pH. [01:00:25] It’s very much like like.

Payman Langroudi: Gp isn’t is it.

Afzal Haque: No, no GP is like just rubber. Rubber. Got [01:00:30] eugenol in it. Yeah. Um but the GP is, is, is the carrier. So, so [01:00:35] the philosophy is changed now initially 20, 30 years ago if we saw single cones in, [01:00:40] in as root canal fillings. It’s a single cone obturation. It’s a bad job. We’ve come back to [01:00:45] single root. So it’s gone full circle. So the simpler things now and for single [01:00:50] cone obturation is the way to go. And if you’re doing it with a bioceramic, [01:00:55] it’s even better. And that’s how they how they teach it because they say Bioceramic doesn’t, [01:01:00] you know, um, work well with heat. So, you know, the heating system. So just you make sure [01:01:05] you’ve got enough, um, bioceramic in the canal and gently placed your cone. [01:01:10]

Payman Langroudi: Is it radiopaque?

Afzal Haque: Yeah, very much so. Very much. And if you get a little bit out of the apex, although [01:01:15] not ideal, the body deals with it very well. So it’s not as irritant. So like the, um, [01:01:20] the older ones like the eugenol and the calcium hydroxide based um.

Payman Langroudi: Tubli-seal. [01:01:25]

Afzal Haque: Tube seal. Sealapex. Yeah. Um the resin ones like h plus they [01:01:30] can, they’re very, they flow a lot and they, it’s very easy to get it out at the end and it can be cytotoxic, [01:01:35] it can really make the, make it very uncomfortable for the patient. Uh, but it will settle, but it will [01:01:40] settle with the bioceramic. If I get anything out the end, as long as it’s not near any structure like you don’t want in the mental [01:01:45] nerve, you don’t want it, you know, in the sinus too much. Um, it generally will be fine. Um, [01:01:50] and it’s changed endodontics completely.

Payman Langroudi: You know, that thing that you must be getting asked about? [01:01:55] Oh, every cancer patient has a endo in their mouth. Yeah, yeah. Conspiracy. [01:02:00]

Afzal Haque: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I must come up a lot.

Afzal Haque: I’ve had a few people, um, ask me [01:02:05] that question or does it cause cancer? I’m like, no, you know, where’s the evidence? The evidence is poor. [01:02:10] We’ve been doing root canals for years. You know how many patients are dying of cancer due [01:02:15] to the root canals? It’s it’s it’s not what you read on the internet. [01:02:20] And that’s the problem. People are very well informed these days. Yeah. We’ve got ChatGPT. They’ve [01:02:25] got someone found me on ChatGPT. This is how this is how weird it [01:02:30] is. Oh, who who’s a good endodontist in the Manchester region. And my name came up. [01:02:35] I found you on ChatGPT. This is this is what people are using now to, to get their information. And you’ve [01:02:40] got to be very careful of, of what they read. So that’s why I try and tell, try and educate them a little bit.

Payman Langroudi: So you can [01:02:45] you can nlm optimise.

Afzal Haque: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So a couple of dentists contacted me because [01:02:50] we had them in a blog post and the blog post didn’t say so. And [01:02:55] so works in Liverpool.

Afzal Haque: Right.

Payman Langroudi: So can you go into that blog post and change it. Right. So [01:03:00] that when ChatGPT is looking, it knows that I’m a dentist in Liverpool because it really likes third [01:03:05] party, right? Like enlightened thinking about the dentist rather than the dentist talking about himself. [01:03:10]

Afzal Haque: Yeah. That’s interesting. Well, that was that’s new to me. But yeah, it’s just information is just [01:03:15] everywhere. It’s overload, isn’t it? So, um, yeah, you just have to educate [01:03:20] them. Um, but yeah, I remember a few years ago that Netflix movie came out.

Payman Langroudi: It wasn’t [01:03:25] this all the same thing. Yeah.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. Well, that’s what it was all about. Root canals are bad and they cause this cause that [01:03:30] there’s a lot of these.

Payman Langroudi: Are you getting asked all the time?

Afzal Haque: Not now. At the time there were. There was a few people that watch. Oh, did you watch [01:03:35] that movie? To be fair, the people that did come and see me didn’t take much notice of it. Um, but [01:03:40] going speaking to colleagues, you know, a lot, a lot of them have had to deal with people saying, I’m not having [01:03:45] that because it’s, it causes this, this causes that is it.

Payman Langroudi: Every time you take GP out of [01:03:50] a tooth, it’s kind of smelly. Yeah. So there are bacteria.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. Yeah. 100%. [01:03:55]

Payman Langroudi: The idea that there are bacteria hanging out in your in your endo.

Afzal Haque: Absolutely. [01:04:00]

Payman Langroudi: So it’s for real.

Afzal Haque: I make it a point with the patient. So because when you’re taking GP out, there’s [01:04:05] that odour, you know, that endodontic smell, you just know it. Um you smelt it that many [01:04:10] times.

Payman Langroudi: I mean I’m not saying it causes cancer. No, no. But it’s real.

Afzal Haque: It’s real. So I would, I would [01:04:15] I would explain to the patient, I said can you smell that odour there? Like I said, that’s the infection in your [01:04:20] tooth. So this is why why we need to do it. So that builds confidence for the patient I think. Yeah it’s [01:04:25] the right decision. Um but yeah most infected root canals will be like that. Yeah. [01:04:30] They’ll get that odour.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not saying so you don’t think most root [01:04:35] canals.

Afzal Haque: Um infected ones. Yeah. Yeah. Now if I’m removing [01:04:40] GP I’m generally going to be removing for a reason. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s got contaminated somehow. Um [01:04:45] so there will be some malodour from it. Yeah. Generally.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:04:50] if I don’t onlay or crown after rct am [01:04:55] I wasting my time with the city.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Or is that old? Is that old information.

Afzal Haque: My doctorate [01:05:00] was on this. Oh yeah. My doctor was on the restoration of root canal treated teeth. And the general consensus [01:05:05] is if it’s if you’ve lost a marginal marginal ridge, um, then that tooth is going to be significantly [01:05:10] weaker than a tooth that hasn’t, uh, and endo with due [01:05:15] to cutting a big hole into the tooth, doing the process of what we do will weaken the tooth further. [01:05:20] So if you’re not going to have comfortable coverage, there’s a higher chance you’re going to get a fracture. Now, some people [01:05:25] might get away with it because their occlusion might be a bit more favourable than others. But as a general rule, on a posterior [01:05:30] tooth, if you’ve lost a marginal ridge, I will be advocating minimal, um, uh, [01:05:35] comfortable coverage. Now that can be with whatever material, but some sort of cuspal [01:05:40] coverage to stop that flexing of, of, of the cusps and causing a fracture. So [01:05:45] yeah, that goes without saying. And that will be discussed at the consultation. So when you go [01:05:50] back to your dentist, because so some people may have heard it but not processed it. So you will need a crown. [01:05:55] So they’ve got to know that because that’s an additional additional cost that they will incur when they’re going [01:06:00] back to their dentist. So I explain how they talked to you about that. Well, I don’t know what they [01:06:05] charge, but this is what they’ll they’ll need to do after it protects what what we do. And [01:06:10] it could range between this and this and generally it’s fine. But yeah, Cuspal coverage. Um, that was my [01:06:15] thing.

Payman Langroudi: And while we’re here internal bleaching.

Afzal Haque: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: What do you do?

Afzal Haque: So, um, [01:06:20] I’ve not done many for a while because I generally prepare the teeth for the general dentist to do. But [01:06:25] when I did do it, I used to. Do, you know the inside outside. Yeah. The walking bleach, walking, the walking bleach.

Payman Langroudi: You close [01:06:30] the access.

Afzal Haque: Um, no. So so.

Payman Langroudi: It’s.

Afzal Haque: Open. Is it inside inside. So not walking. Sorry. The inside [01:06:35] outside. Yeah. It’s where you make them a tray and then and they, they um replenish the, um the [01:06:40] gel every so often. It’s interesting you mentioned that I went to a lecture um not [01:06:45] long ago about incidents of resorption in, in teeth [01:06:50] and obviously bleaching came up as one of them. And the, the person giving the [01:06:55] lecture was saying that, um, you know, the walking bleach is probably higher risk [01:07:00] due to the fact that there’s nowhere for the for the bleach to exhale.

Payman Langroudi: Interestingly, I heard the [01:07:05] incidence has gone down a lot.

Afzal Haque: I’m sure it has.

Payman Langroudi: Because we no longer think heating [01:07:10] the thing. Yeah.

Afzal Haque: And also the percentages have gone down as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Afzal Haque: Over the years.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But I [01:07:15] remember a time you just took a hot instrument into into bleach.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. [01:07:20]

Payman Langroudi: In the access cavity thinking hot bleach is what you want. And it’s that heat that was causing. [01:07:25] Yeah. Um, so I think Chris did a study, not study the [01:07:30] search on, on.

Afzal Haque: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: He told me that. Um, but interesting thing, [01:07:35] you know, regression, the best way to handle regression [01:07:40] after internal bleaching is externally. Yeah. Not, not internally. Right. Because [01:07:45] everyone thinks, oh, we’re internal. It’s difficult. You don’t know whether it’s going to regress or not. Yeah. You don’t [01:07:50] even let it regress. You do external one night a month or one night a week or whatever it takes for it [01:07:55] not to regress. Yeah, yeah. With with a tray externally as well.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. No. Um, so [01:08:00] so I get asked, um can you prepare the tooth for internal whitening. So I’ll [01:08:05] make sure the GP has cut the right place. All the barrier is in so the dentist can carry on and do that. But yeah, it’s [01:08:10] a great way. I used to do loads when I was doing my specialist training, so we saw great results. Um, [01:08:15] I mean you correct me if I’m wrong, but the grey, the tooth was, it was a bit more challenging, [01:08:20] but you got some change and it was, it was some of them were remarkable. The way, the way it looked. [01:08:25] I thought what’s happened.

Payman Langroudi: To white.

Afzal Haque: Something something go to white. Yeah. Yeah. And then you’re thinking, well, you’re gonna [01:08:30] have to bleach the rest of them now and not bleach that one. Yeah. So yeah, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: What we do actually. We [01:08:35] bleach everything.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. But it’s a great treatment if. And it can work quite well. [01:08:40] So it’s trauma. Yeah. You see a lot trauma.

Payman Langroudi: What grinds your gears? Like what gets you angry? [01:08:45] Getting mad about the profession.

Afzal Haque: Oh, gosh. Um, this goes back to [01:08:50] my undergraduate days.

Payman Langroudi: So the teaching, the what you’re saying the [01:08:55] teaching.

Afzal Haque: That’s what really winds me up.

Payman Langroudi: Almost like there’s abuse built into it.

Afzal Haque: It’s a level [01:09:00] of abuse, isn’t it? But but it’s not.

Payman Langroudi: I remember, I remember it’s not emotional. It completely [01:09:05] I completely resonated with me when you said what you said, I’m maybe ten years behind [01:09:10] you. Yeah. Like older than you. Yeah. And I remember thinking, [01:09:15] why is this guy being so cruel?

Afzal Haque: Well, that’s, that’s what it was.

Payman Langroudi: But I remember, I remember [01:09:20] that there was this idea that dentistry is tough, and we’re [01:09:25] gonna abuse you to see who can take it and who can’t. It was almost like this excuse [01:09:30] for abuse.

Afzal Haque: Absolutely. And, and looking back on it, I think that nobody nobody [01:09:35] learns from that. Nobody learns from I mean, you’ve got to be constructively, you’ve got to give constructive [01:09:40] criticism, but everything negative is going to bring somebody down. My experience with dental school was I [01:09:45] was the average student, didn’t do anything better than just passed my exam. That’s all I did. And I, and [01:09:50] I never failed an exam, but everything didn’t come, came to me, you know, with some effort. [01:09:55] It’s there was some of my colleagues and friends who just got everything. They just. Yeah, perfect. [01:10:00] But those tutors were, were, were quite harsh on people like us. And they would [01:10:05] say, oh, maybe you should think of another career and things like, you know, things like that. That’s not very helpful when you’re in your third and fourth year. I [01:10:10] remember quite clearly, um, a couple of colleagues, um, on clinic [01:10:15] and they were telling them for a patient, maybe you should think about another career. And I think that is just so not helpful. [01:10:20]

Payman Langroudi: And it’s.

Afzal Haque: Really annoying.

Payman Langroudi: Some people have to decide [01:10:25] age 13. Yeah, they want to be a dentist because of the GCSEs they’re taking. So you’ve [01:10:30] been working at this thing for ten years. Would you like for.

Afzal Haque: Someone.

Payman Langroudi: To tell you that half your life almost at that point?

Afzal Haque: Yeah, absolutely. [01:10:35]

Payman Langroudi: And this guy is a minute. Yeah. Yeah. You know, quite eminent, isn’t he? Because he’s [01:10:40] an academic. Yeah. You’re a student. Yeah. To hear that from him, it’s just heartbreaking. [01:10:45]

Afzal Haque: It’s horrible. It was like people taking impressions. It didn’t look good. Pick it up and throw it in the bin. Do it again. Um, [01:10:50] that really annoyed me. So.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:10:55] you were, you were saying that’s why you like teaching? Teaching?

Afzal Haque: Yeah. I mean, I can’t change the [01:11:00] world, but I can do my my own little bit. And my philosophy was, I’m never going to let anyone feel [01:11:05] like that. If there’s a problem, we’ll have an open and honest conversation, make it constructive and give them [01:11:10] a plan. It’s a bit like the stuff I do. If the practice is not is not great, you [01:11:15] don’t shut them down, address it, give them an action plan, go back, give them a chance. [01:11:20] And that was my thing. I was like, I cannot, um, teach like this. I have [01:11:25] to use a different approach. And, you know, it was horrible [01:11:30] to see that, uh, at the time. And it broke a lot of people. And I had one good tutor. [01:11:35] I will mention his name’s Amin. I’m in a minion. He a legend, absolute [01:11:40] legend.

Payman Langroudi: He loved that guy.

Afzal Haque: Lovely man and fantastic clinician, but just [01:11:45] a realist. And when we were undergrads, I must have be third year [01:11:50] or yeah, it would have been third year. And we were doing the, you know, the op tech where you you cut cavities on plastic teeth [01:11:55] and you passed that exam. Then you go on to see patients and other tutors and other groups. So [01:12:00] he was, I was assigned to his group and other, um, students. They were all getting [01:12:05] A’s and I was in from what I remember, it was a, B, C pass. [01:12:10] D was like cause of concern and would only give me C the [01:12:15] odd B, and I’m looking at my colleagues. I’m looking at obviously different teachers have different ways of marking. [01:12:20] I’m looking at my work. It’s not that bad, but I’m getting B’s and C’s. Well, B if I’m lucky. [01:12:25] And I was like, I had to speak to, I mean, and actually I remember he came [01:12:30] up to me and said, are you all right? I said, I said, look, I mean, I’ve been doing this for like a term. Now I’m [01:12:35] only getting C’s.

Afzal Haque: And he just brought me to the side. I said, look, if you’re gonna [01:12:40] get if you want A’s, you have to do this better than me because I’ve been doing this a long time. And [01:12:45] if you’re getting B’s and C’s, you are safe, you’re adequate, and it gives you room to improve. [01:12:50] And so let me tell you one thing. I did nothing else in my Dental undergraduate career than just [01:12:55] passed my exams. He goes, and that’s all you need to do. You need to be hungry to [01:13:00] keep improving. If you get the A’s, you become complacent. So that [01:13:05] stuck with me. And you know, you know, when you’re an undergrad, you look up to these guys and [01:13:10] they say, oh, prosthodontists, you know, you know, they’re brilliant clinicians. And it [01:13:15] was always like a bit of imposter syndrome. You know, when you come out of university, I will never be like him. But [01:13:20] with time, if you’re hungry and you stay humble, you, you’ll [01:13:25] get there. And I’ve still got lots to do. Yet I’ve nowhere the [01:13:30] finished article, but the journey is there and I’m still continuing.

Payman Langroudi: The things that you’ve got [01:13:35] to do where like, how do you categorise them? Like there’s business goals.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, I think there’s business goals.

Payman Langroudi: Clinical [01:13:40] goals.

Afzal Haque: Clinical goals. Like I told you.

Payman Langroudi: About.

Afzal Haque: Surgery. Yeah. I mean, I do surgery, but I want to be A [01:13:45] liquor and get much, much better at it. And that comes with time, comes with practice. I’m [01:13:50] lucky I’m working at UConn because I work with oral surgery. So we do a lot of cases together and that [01:13:55] will improve my experience and exposure to it. Um, but yeah, there’s the business goals. [01:14:00] Of course, there’s business goals I want to create. Um, so I mentioned [01:14:05] before, I’ve got a general private practice with an offshoot of endo. At the moment it’s all one, [01:14:10] but my, my plan would be to kind of make it to maybe, maybe [01:14:15] take it to a different location. Um, I’d teaching to it because [01:14:20] I love teaching at the moment I’m teaching postgraduates at the university level. Um, the [01:14:25] reason I’m not doing courses at the moment, um, is because not because I have done them in the past, [01:14:30] I focus a lot on my business. I want to get my business right. I want to get my business right. I want [01:14:35] to get that, that flow, um, of endodontic treatment coming well into, into the practice. [01:14:40] And I don’t, didn’t want to do courses too early. A lot of people do courses way too early. [01:14:45] They’ve graduated. They’ve started courses. How can you teach, you know, endodontics [01:14:50] if you’re not doing it regularly every single day? And I want to be that wet finger dentist that teaches a course [01:14:55] that today someone’s going to learn something and tomorrow they’ll, they’ll, they’ll apply it. So that’s my [01:15:00] goal. I want to create one day, I don’t know when, but some sort of like an institution where people [01:15:05] can come and treat under my supervision, because that’s one thing I think endodontics [01:15:10] doesn’t have that implants and other specialities have mentorship. Mhm. They have [01:15:15] um, so if you’re placing an implant, you can get a mentor.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Afzal Haque: But where are your mentors? Where [01:15:20] where are they? No, they don’t exist. Um, why? There must be some logistic [01:15:25] reason, but I’ve got my own practice and I’ve got space, and [01:15:30] I love teaching, so why not try and create something?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Afzal Haque: It’s [01:15:35] it’s a thought, but let’s see what happens. Um, but for that, I need a bit more time. [01:15:40]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, man. You’re young.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. So so that’s what I mean. I’m not done yet. Yeah, yeah. There’s a lot as long as I’ve got [01:15:45] energy, I’ve got the air in my lungs. An amazing wife who continues to support [01:15:50] me and my family.

Payman Langroudi: She sounds great.

Afzal Haque: She, she is amazing. You need to bring her on a podcast. You don’t need me. So I say to everybody, [01:15:55] I’m not the specialist. She’s the specialist. Because when you do specialist training, they [01:16:00] all do it with you. She does it from a different angle, supporting everything.

Payman Langroudi: Well, at [01:16:05] the Eastman, they call it the marriage break. Well, it’s it’s.

Afzal Haque: It’s it’s it’s the the divorce.

Payman Langroudi: The [01:16:10] divorce course.

Afzal Haque: Reverse course. I mean, it times have been difficult. [01:16:15] I could not say sit there and it’s been, oh, it’s been a rosy time. The times I want to give up because [01:16:20] I’m like, what am I doing this for? You know, I’m away from my family. My wife’s miserable. I’m [01:16:25] miserable. You know.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, it’s terrible. I know of several divorces [01:16:30] because of.

Afzal Haque: So do I. Yeah, so do I. My brother in law, um, who’s a periodontist. [01:16:35] Um, he studied at the Eastman. He was telling me this all the time and he says [01:16:40] it to me. Now he goes. The fact you two made it is a massive testament testament [01:16:45] to to you both, but I hold her solely responsible for everything [01:16:50] because she she she set it all up. But the difference is we both had the same [01:16:55] goal and it did help the fact she’s a dentist. She. She could see the. No one can see the future. But [01:17:00] you can.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Afzal Haque: You can aim for the same thing. And that’s what I feel. She has a [01:17:05] great skill in. But, um. Yeah, because I wanted to give up. She, you know, she [01:17:10] see me, she goes, but you’re not here. She’s your present, but you’re not present. So the kids were going swimming [01:17:15] and I’m on my phone trying to answer emails or and she’s like, this is [01:17:20] this is why I moved to Liverpool in my final year. She kicked me out pretty much. She said, you’re not no [01:17:25] use to us here. And you know, you used to yourself over there because I’m falling behind on projects. I’m not getting [01:17:30] deadlines done because I’ve got a commute. I’ve got to see my practice. I’ve got to I wasn’t I wasn’t meant [01:17:35] to work in that in those three years, but I did.

Payman Langroudi: And were you coming home at the weekends. At that point.

Afzal Haque: So [01:17:40] every day I would leave at 6:45. So before the kids were up and I’d come [01:17:45] back about 8:00 after the kids were asleep. So the first two days never saw them. So. And I’d [01:17:50] work on a Saturday.

Payman Langroudi: Even though you weren’t supposed.

Afzal Haque: You weren’t supposed to. So I came back to Manchester [01:17:55] on a Friday night, Saturday morning in my clinic for half a day till about 2:00. Then I saw the family, [01:18:00] and then Sunday I would get back to my books. So they’d be all going swimming lessons and everything. I’d be [01:18:05] missing it. And the odd time I did turn up, she’s like, you’re not here. So in the final year, when [01:18:10] I really needed to tighten everything, she’s like, right, you’re out of here now. She goes, we’re gonna go and find a flat. [01:18:15] So we went to Liverpool. She, um, in the summer, we found a flat where [01:18:20] I’d be self-contained off to share with anybody. Just got somewhere to put your head, eat your food, [01:18:25] get to university. And literally five minutes from the university walk. And she sent me on my way. So I used to go on a Sunday [01:18:30] night and come back on a Saturday morning. I wasn’t even allowed to come home on a Friday [01:18:35] night. Yeah. She was like, get your work done. So she goes, oh, [01:18:40] I don’t think you need to come back on Friday night to see us. I’d rather you come back on Saturday morning, go straight [01:18:45] to the clinic. Do that and then afterwards give us all your time. So Saturday afternoons [01:18:50] and Sunday morning breakfast time, I would be with them. And then on Sunday afternoons, [01:18:55] about three, 3 or 4:00, I’d go back because you want me back. Go to go back early so I can settle in, do [01:19:00] some work and get ready for the week.

Payman Langroudi: So that much work.

Afzal Haque: There’s a lot of work.

Payman Langroudi: So homework. [01:19:05]

Afzal Haque: Yeah. Because the course is at doctorate level. So you’ve got em condense [01:19:10] you’re researching. It’s very research heavy. It’s not it’s not hard. [01:19:15] It’s just a bigger project. So it had multiple things to do. Then there’s the your [01:19:20] own admin. You’ve got to do all your letters. You’ve got to do everything. Then you know, your audits, your, [01:19:25] you know, revising. And my colleagues, the three guys I was with, they’re all Liverpool [01:19:30] based, you know, Amar, Nick and Mustafa, they’re all Liverpool based. I’m the only one in Manchester. [01:19:35] So when they’re going for the exams, I’m not there. And [01:19:40] you learn in a group. It was much more beneficial to learn as a group. So being there was [01:19:45] important. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I think we all know bits of the Dental course we change. [01:19:50] Yeah, yeah. Are there bits of the endo training you would change because, you know, I’m sure, I’m [01:19:55] sure you’re a goddamn expert at the your doctorate thing. Yeah, but [01:20:00] is it is it too much? Is it, is it, is it stuff that they don’t teach you that they really should? Yeah. [01:20:05] Like, you know, like in an ortho morph, they don’t teach any clear aligner at all.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, yeah. So [01:20:10] in terms of endodontic, if I was going to change, change the course, I think it’s got, I mean we were very [01:20:15] lucky we got to place implants. Whoa. Yeah. So faddy. Um, I’ve got a lot [01:20:20] of, lot of time for faddy. Um, our program director, he created [01:20:25] the course so we would place implants, and I thought that was very beneficial at the time. Thinking I’m doing endo. What am I doing [01:20:30] implants for? But it was good to understand the other side of it. And I think, I don’t know where that element is still in in. [01:20:35] The course. But some element of that adding to specialist training would be brilliant because [01:20:40] you get to see the other side and also it doubles up your surgery experience as well. So so it was really good. So [01:20:45] he made sure that we did endo surgery and we did implants and we restored our implants. So [01:20:50] endodontics is an offshoot of restorative dentistry. So [01:20:55] to be a good endodontist, I think you need to be a good restorative dentist first. So in Liverpool [01:21:00] we were very lucky. We restored all our teeth. We did a lot of added dentures. I [01:21:05] understood how the, you know, the occlusion works because that was part of the [01:21:10] overall restorative training as well. So we although we did lots of nearly 200 endo cases, um, [01:21:15] maybe more, but a lot of focus was on restorative. So would I change [01:21:20] anything at the moment I keep that, uh, the implant element in um, I doing [01:21:25] a doctorate or doing a master’s. I don’t think it makes much difference [01:21:30] in terms of getting on the specialist list. It just is a bigger project. Um, how? [01:21:35] Having said that, it opens more doors up later.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Afzal Haque: And I think [01:21:40] it has for me, especially because, you know, in terms of teaching and all that kind of stuff, it’s it’s been [01:21:45] very, very beneficial to have it at the time, I hated it. Just, just hated it. Just wanted to just, you [01:21:50] know, rip it up and throw it in the bin. But you don’t realise at the time. But [01:21:55] afterwards when you reflect, you think, yeah, it was a hard three years. Well, nearly four years. [01:22:00] Um, because um I had to take an extension to, to hand in my [01:22:05] doctorate, which is quite common, but it just means you don’t finish on that third year. [01:22:10] You’ve still got to do a bit more work, but then the world of work starts and you come out, you come out without a job.

Payman Langroudi: Um. [01:22:15]

Afzal Haque: Although it’s not like medicine or even the orthodontists, [01:22:20] they come out and there’s awful practices where, you know, they’ve got contract, they can get a job. Who’s going to send [01:22:25] you endo?

Payman Langroudi: From the beginning you weren’t working.

Afzal Haque: So, so I, I obviously I’m the lucky one because I had my own practice. [01:22:30] So I was building a little bit of referral work there, but not a lot. So I came out [01:22:35] and was like, right, I’m a fully fledged endodontist. No work or very little. I’ve got [01:22:40] half a day a week.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s.

Afzal Haque: Not gonna support the family. So I had to still do a bit of general. I had to carry on doing [01:22:45] a bit of general dentistry. Yeah. And then I managed to work [01:22:50] at another practice not far from where I live, just to kind of, um, help them out. And [01:22:55] that gave me a little bit of more income. I taught at Manchester as well at the university. That wasn’t [01:23:00] great financially, but it was something to do. But you don’t get told all these [01:23:05] things, you know, you think you’re done, you go straight into a job. No.

Payman Langroudi: It’s I was saying.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, [01:23:10] you’ve got to create your own brand essentially. So why would someone refer to me? You [01:23:15] know, what is it about me? So that’s how the journey has come. Now five, six [01:23:20] years on, you start to see the benefit of all that hard work. You don’t see it straight away. And this is why I respect [01:23:25] people like Sanj, because Sanj is 2030 years of [01:23:30] that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah.

Afzal Haque: So everything is hats off to him. You know he deserves. [01:23:35]

Payman Langroudi: He’s the Don in the North.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. He deserves the utmost respect because he put in the hours. [01:23:40] You know, he left his kids to go and teach and and lecture and etc. [01:23:45] and all that kind of stuff. Um, and that’s how we built a successful business. So [01:23:50] we’re not reinventing the wheel here. It’s like any business [01:23:55] or any sort of, um, entrepreneur, if you like what they [01:24:00] do. Copy it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Afzal Haque: There’s, there’s no, there’s nothing amazing about it.

Payman Langroudi: We [01:24:05] like to talk about mistakes.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind if I say so? Clinical error.

Afzal Haque: So. [01:24:10] Well, do you want to do any mistakes or do you want to do either. Right. We’ll start with random mistakes. [01:24:15] Well there’s not one procedural error that I’ve probably not done.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Afzal Haque: And I think the best endodontists [01:24:20] are made the ones who’ve done the most mistakes because then you know how to fix that. [01:24:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Afzal Haque: So broken files. Everyone does it. Everyone does it. I broke a [01:24:30] file. Now, this. This is a true story in a tooth of a patient that I was seeing in my own [01:24:35] practice when I was a general dentist years ago. Patient was nice. Very, very [01:24:40] okay. Okay. And then that tooth over years was [01:24:45] fine. And then eventually started to get problematic. Patient was getting pain. Discomfort [01:24:50] started to get a bit upset. The patient now and everyone looks at, oh, there’s a file broken in that [01:24:55] tooth and in that, in that root. And that’s where the infection is from. Luckily, I [01:25:00] was able to remove it because I had the training. Many, many, many years later. So [01:25:05] I got away with that one. Um, but and I managed to get it out retreated and the patient’s fine, [01:25:10] but that is a common.

Payman Langroudi: Why does a broken file cause pain?

Afzal Haque: It’s not the file. And [01:25:15] this is what I try and get out to people a lot and patients that come in. Oh you broke a tool. Tool. I [01:25:20] left a tool on my tooth. I’m like, let’s take it back a bit. It’s [01:25:25] not the the tool or the file that causes the infection. It’s the bacteria that’s left [01:25:30] around it. So the way.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t fill.

Afzal Haque: You can’t fill around, you can’t clean around it. So the way I describe [01:25:35] it to patients, because that’s part of the consent process is that if especially a particularly curved tooth, we’re going [01:25:40] to mention it. I’m going to mention in most teeth, but I will mention that there’s a chance of separation of [01:25:45] a file and what that may mean it might alter the outcome. And [01:25:50] I’ll explain that if it happens early on in the treatment, it’s more of an issue because I’ve [01:25:55] not had the opportunity to clean. But if it happens towards the end, you can just fill it. And majority of the time it’s not going [01:26:00] to be a problem. So it’s not a negligent, it’s a procedural error. Um, there’s [01:26:05] ways of trying to avoid it by taking your time using small files, bringing, you know, [01:26:10] getting the shape bigger slowly. But if it does happen, first of all, tell your patient. [01:26:15] Second of all, don’t panic. Sometimes if you’ve cleaned it well, it’s [01:26:20] going to be fine. If you can see it, you can retrieve it generally. But if it’s [01:26:25] around a curve, you’ve got to think about is it worth doing that?

Payman Langroudi: You see it with your microscope?

Afzal Haque: Yeah, I can see with microscopes. [01:26:30] Generally, generally the rule is I would definitely attempt to retrieve it, but it’s around a curve. [01:26:35] There’s no chance of getting that out. So it’s not the file, it’s the bacteria around it. I will just try and irrigate as much as I can, [01:26:40] activate the Irrigant try and get as much around that file as possible. Trying to see if I can um if [01:26:45] reduce the bacterial load and eventually hopefully it will settle because it’s [01:26:50] about reducing the overall bacteria and the immune system will do its [01:26:55] bits as well. So I don’t see that as a problem. But that’s one area we talk. Perforations happen a lot. [01:27:00] And I think back in the day I would just get a big, big, um, diamond burr, [01:27:05] take it into the cavity and it’s just sank a bit too far and [01:27:10] you see bleeding. What’s that. You’ve just gone straight through the middle of the tooth. So [01:27:15] that could be avoided now by using these end cutting burs. I didn’t have them at the time. I didn’t have [01:27:20] any sort of, um, understanding of it at the time. So that’s, that’s one error. Um [01:27:25] let’s talk about a non Indo error.

Payman Langroudi: So but what [01:27:30] about an Indo era where it went wrong with the patient.

Afzal Haque: Um I’d be [01:27:35] very lucky I’ve not had that because I feel I communicate quite well. Yeah. And I think that I’ve [01:27:40] had one patient where it went a little bit funny, but we managed to deal with it. I ended up giving [01:27:45] giving them the money back. But let’s talk about that one. So it [01:27:50] was a patient where I did endodontic treatment and it just never settled. Six months [01:27:55] later, he went to see another dentist and it was an upper six. It looked fine on the radiograph and [01:28:00] it was um yeah, they still had a lesion on the tooth. The dentist decided [01:28:05] um I need to take the tooth out, but what the, what the comment that they passed on to the patient [01:28:10] was, oh this tooth has an mm two which it has not been filled.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. [01:28:15]

Afzal Haque: And I was like fine. And then I was a little bit shocked about that. Got [01:28:20] this big letter from the then from the patient. Um, what are you going to do about it? I’ve had to [01:28:25] endure all this, which is fair enough. Um, when I looked back at the notes I thought, he’s [01:28:30] in here. He was in the letter. He was saying another dentist who has not got the speciality you’ve got [01:28:35] seems to spotted there was missed me too. Why have you not done this? Then I went back to my notes [01:28:40] and I read my notes. I looked at radiographs and I said, there is an MM2 there and I have filled it. So what had [01:28:45] happened? The dentist who made that comment had taken an X-ray at an angle where the [01:28:50] MM2 and mm one superimposed over each other. He’s not seen it. And I’ve seen my [01:28:55] radiograph and I’ve taken different angles. There is an MM2.

Payman Langroudi: Filled.

Afzal Haque: Filled. [01:29:00] There is a slight difference in it because the contrast of the MM2 is slightly [01:29:05] different to the. Mm one because the it was a challenging [01:29:10] one. And um I think the apex was slightly a bit more wider than, than um [01:29:15] I would have expected. So I filled the failed majority of that with Bioceramic. So it’s there, but it’s [01:29:20] got a different contrast. So when I read the notes, I said, well, it has been done. It’s just unfortunate. [01:29:25] It’s one of those what we call 20% that won’t work. I wrote back to the [01:29:30] patient and explained that this this is what’s happened. Um, it has been filled. [01:29:35] Unfortunately, I had to write that, you know, sometimes if you’ve not got a trained eye or you’ve taken [01:29:40] an X-ray, a different angle, you may miss it, but it’s just unfortunate that it hasn’t happened. He started to get [01:29:45] all very, very upset about it. Oh no, no, no, you’re wrong. You’ve not done it [01:29:50] right. And I was like, look what’s going to make you happiest? And he was like I said, if [01:29:55] I gave you all and gave you your money back with that, would that please you? He said, yeah, [01:30:00] that’s the least I want. So we just, we just ended it there. Um, it could have got worse. Um, [01:30:05] but then I think the learning point from that was not to be aggressive [01:30:10] back. Yeah, yeah. It’s like, you know what, if that’s what you want, leave it. You know, you’ve done it right. Um, I [01:30:15] got my indemnity involved and even they took my point on [01:30:20] it because they weren’t an endodontist they, they couldn’t see what I had done when they read the notes like, ah, now [01:30:25] it makes sense. So if you want to fight it, you can fight. I’m not gonna, I don’t want to. Let’s just deal with it. Move on because [01:30:30] yeah, £1,000. It’s it’s not not the end of the world. [01:30:35]

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t tend to be the money. It’s the point. Yeah.

Afzal Haque: It’s not the money. No you’re right. It’s, [01:30:40] it’s more like, how dare they not, you know, say what they said.

Payman Langroudi: Also [01:30:45] it’s, it’s like, you know, like your intent was absolutely right. 100%. Your treatment ended [01:30:50] up being absolutely right. Yeah, yeah. And the guys kind of said, well, that’s the question that that’s. [01:30:55]

Afzal Haque: The learning point from that is that no matter how well you do the treatment, sometimes things don’t go well. And that [01:31:00] happens a lot. So you call that a mistake? I don’t think it was it was a mistake. But it was it was an an [01:31:05] interesting moment. The more mistakes I’ve had dentistry where patients have actually gone on to take it [01:31:10] further, more when I was a general dentist. So I had a patient, um, This is going back. It was 2008. [01:31:15] It’s going back a while. I got married in 2009 and she was [01:31:20] a new patient. Lots of perio. Um, and had a problem with an upper six [01:31:25] heavily, heavily filled and came in with an abscess, like a big facial [01:31:30] swelling. And we ended up extracting the, the upper six. So the upper six got, got extracted [01:31:35] and then for months I didn’t see her. And then one day [01:31:40] I got a letter from her and the letter said that she’s been in hospital, hospitalised, [01:31:45] have multiple sinus infections, has had to have surgery, etc., [01:31:50] etc.. I was like really shocked at this, like just a routine extraction and this is the way it’s gone. And [01:31:55] I remember at the time I was very cautious, checked for OAC, all that stuff. And it’s been [01:32:00] a long, long time since it happened. And then she got, she, she went further with it. And [01:32:05] this is around the time I was getting married and it really put me off, really [01:32:10] knocked me because I’m not. I’m 2006 graduate. 2008 is happening. I’m thinking, have I got a career now? Yeah, [01:32:15] yeah, I’m getting married literally in a year’s time.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. I’ve got to provide for the family. I’ve got to do this. [01:32:20] What happens at this point anyway? It got resolved through through protection. Dental [01:32:25] protection. Um, but what the outcome was, it was a very rare issue [01:32:30] with a very routine treatment. So they couldn’t they were like, we don’t [01:32:35] even know what’s happened. Anyway, the patient got what they needed. But that [01:32:40] was the, the start of like, let’s become better. Let’s [01:32:45] become better. Let’s learn from it could go the complete opposite way. I remember I got married on the, on, [01:32:50] on the Saturday and on the Monday because I didn’t we didn’t go away on our honeymoon straight away. We [01:32:55] left it a few weeks and on the Monday I was having a meeting with that lady. And [01:33:00] I remember seeing her. I just just got married. And I’m dealing with this. No, it’s your fault. It’s your fault. It’s your fault. We’re [01:33:05] going to take it further anyway, I think it’s important that. And in [01:33:10] many ways I’m so glad it happened. Not not that the patient suffered. That issue happened [01:33:15] with me because it built resilience. Like, do you know what? That’s why we pay our indemnity. [01:33:20] Yeah, yeah. I pay you to deal with the problem. I [01:33:25] think if you have that philosophy, then as long as you know in your heart you’re doing everything right [01:33:30] and you’ve done the best and most of us will will do that. What’s the point [01:33:35] of worrying?

Payman Langroudi: Oh, man. And we’re human. Sometimes we won’t do everything right.

Afzal Haque: Let [01:33:40] the lawyers deal with it.

Payman Langroudi: Let yourself off that. Yeah. That fact. But sometimes in a long career. Yeah, yeah, [01:33:45] there’ll be a mistake somewhere.

Afzal Haque: And you take it so personally.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Afzal Haque: That’s the problem. And I think [01:33:50] I’ve become a little bit more thick skinned as time has gone on. But that’s only experience. That’s not my my nature is to still [01:33:55] be upset if someone doesn’t like you. I don’t like that. Of course I don’t like that. I don’t [01:34:00] fall out with people.

Payman Langroudi: Of course.

Afzal Haque: Um, that’s just my nature.

Payman Langroudi: You’re in high end private where? It’s [01:34:05] a yes business.

Afzal Haque: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Trying to make people happy.

Afzal Haque: It’s a show business [01:34:10] in many ways, and we have to make good relations. And if somebody doesn’t like [01:34:15] you, it does bother me. So there is a part of that where I still probably will be bothered to a certain degree, [01:34:20] but then I’ll be like, well, this is why we have this service. And and they do a great job, so [01:34:25] let them deal with it.

Payman Langroudi: Would you be happy for your kids to become dentists?

Afzal Haque: Would I be happy? I wouldn’t have any objection [01:34:30] whatsoever. Um, I mean, it’s a cliche to let them do what they want. That is part of it as [01:34:35] well. But some of my kids may not be cut out for it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:34:40]

Afzal Haque: So so whatever suits them, if they came to me tomorrow and said, dad, I really want to be a dentist, I said, well, [01:34:45] go as far as you can go. I have no objection. Any career because I honestly believe you’re [01:34:50] in charge of your your destiny. Really, if you want to be the best doctor, [01:34:55] the best marketer, the best banker, best dentist, [01:35:00] just aim for the stars.

Payman Langroudi: Problem is, a lot of times kids don’t know what they want.

Afzal Haque: That’s the problem. [01:35:05]

Payman Langroudi: They come to you.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, yeah. And it’s always you.

Payman Langroudi: Would you, would you advise dentistry?

Afzal Haque: Yeah. I [01:35:10] would say yeah. I say it’s a good profession. It gives you stability. But that’s the problem. [01:35:15] Everybody will only would advise what they know. Yeah. It’s like someone comes up to me [01:35:20] and said um would you be a specialist? Endodontist. Well, yeah, of course. [01:35:25] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But I’m asking everyone though. Yeah. How long before robots do dentistry?

Afzal Haque: I [01:35:30] think it will happen, but it’s not going to happen in our lifetime, I don’t think. I [01:35:35] don’t know, I just I just feel there’s that human element of, of, of treating [01:35:40] patients.

Payman Langroudi: The social.

Afzal Haque: Emotional element.

Payman Langroudi: You can have a person [01:35:45] who’s not a dentist.

Afzal Haque: I, I, yeah, no, I see what you’re saying, but I think a lot of patients, I think a lot of patients [01:35:50] may not, may not accept that at this moment in time, having treatment done by a robot. Why? [01:35:55] Because they want to speak to somebody. They want someone to TCO.

Payman Langroudi: Like the TCO could be the [01:36:00] most charming person.

Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Afzal Haque: I don’t know, I don’t know, I know what you’re trying [01:36:05] to say, but I just I just feel there’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Lot of people, a lot of people think, what do you think?

Afzal Haque: I still think that there’s an element [01:36:10] of a human to do treatment and to speak to people. And would I want that [01:36:15] for myself now? Difficult for me to answer that because I know about the industry, but I wouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Speak to him. [01:36:20] There’ll be humans there, just not dentists.

Afzal Haque: But they I don’t know whether they want someone to actually do the treatment [01:36:25] for them or not. I think it could happen. I think it could happen. It’s a difficult one, isn’t it? Um, but [01:36:30] it is going that way. It’s just I would I want a robot to do my leg [01:36:35] surgery, for example.

Payman Langroudi: What if he’s better than the human?

Afzal Haque: Like, how do I know that?

Payman Langroudi: Because he will be by that [01:36:40] time, isn’t he? Yeah.

Afzal Haque: Well, I think until we know that. Yeah, I think I know I’ll reserve my judgement until I know that [01:36:45] if I know they can do multiple procedures perfectly.

Payman Langroudi: Then let’s face [01:36:50] it, then the way they’ll be, the way it’ll be will be that the ender will be done much [01:36:55] better than what you’re doing, because it’ll be the world’s best. Endodontists will train the [01:37:00] model. Yeah, yeah, that’s.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, well, if that happened, I’m out of a job [01:37:05] at that point, and hopefully I’ll be dead before.

Payman Langroudi: My kids saying she was [01:37:10] a dentist. She’s 15. Yeah, that means eight years time she’s going to be a dentist. Yeah, [01:37:15] it is a long time.

Afzal Haque: It is a long time.

Payman Langroudi: Ai and robotics.

Afzal Haque: I know, I know it’s [01:37:20] you know, you’re right. It’s scary how quickly these things are moving on. I suppose I’m not giving it much [01:37:25] thought. And I’ve always kind of maybe may have been maybe.

Payman Langroudi: In a Waymo like a driverless car. [01:37:30] I mean, they’re all over London.

Afzal Haque: At the moment. I wouldn’t I like to drive [01:37:35] my own car though.

Payman Langroudi: But driverless taxi.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. Again I have to be proven [01:37:40] that it’s it works and it’s fine.

Payman Langroudi: But that’s easy to prove.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. I suppose I wouldn’t have [01:37:45] any any problem with that. I suppose I wouldn’t have any problem with that. But I don’t know when it comes to the human, when it comes to. [01:37:50]

Payman Langroudi: What is it, what do you think the magic outside of the social which will take care of. We’re talking [01:37:55] a brain. The brain’s already unbelievable. Yeah, you’re talking AIS. They can sort out X-ray vision. [01:38:00] Amazing AIS. And then you took your hands. Or you don’t think they can improve on hands?

Afzal Haque: Yeah, I suppose they’ll be able to do [01:38:05] it. Well, basically, I may as well give up right now. Let’s end this podcast. I’ll [01:38:10] retrain on something else.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a pleasure having you, man. We’re gonna end with [01:38:15] the usual question that I asked. It’s been great about a fantasy dinner party.

Afzal Haque: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Three [01:38:20] guests.

Afzal Haque: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive, who are you having?

Afzal Haque: So, first of all, I’ll. I’ll always [01:38:25] have my dad. My, my, my dad has been brilliant for me all through my life. Is [01:38:30] he still with us? He’s still with us? Yeah, he’s still with us. You’re not my father. Right? Fine.

Payman Langroudi: If he’s still [01:38:35] with us.

Afzal Haque: He is still with us, actually. But, um. Okay, so we’ll start off with [01:38:40] I.

Payman Langroudi: Your wife or your kids, or.

Afzal Haque: I will start off with Sir [01:38:45] Alex Ferguson. All right, so I’m a big United fan. Yeah. And. [01:38:50] I’d love to know about his man management, how [01:38:55] he.

Payman Langroudi: Have you read the books?

Afzal Haque: I do, I haven’t, but this must be amazing. I actually have one [01:39:00] of my things I would like to do.

Payman Langroudi: I absolutely don’t care about football, but if I did, I would definitely be. I’m thinking [01:39:05] about reading them even though I don’t care about them.

Afzal Haque: You know, it’s something that I probably probably would be a really good.

Payman Langroudi: Business.

Afzal Haque: Book. Yeah. Um, [01:39:10] but it’s just how to manage people because that’s what we do day to day is how has he got the best out of people? [01:39:15] I mean, we have our own ways of getting the best out of people. But this is how Alex Ferguson, you know, [01:39:20] he won so much with United. Um, so I definitely would like to have him there. And I’d like to also know [01:39:25] from him what actually happened with David Beckham, what actually happened. What was the real reason [01:39:30] that you that that you got him out of the club? But yeah, so Alex is definitely one [01:39:35] of them. Um, the next guy I would have, the next person I would have, it would [01:39:40] have to be. And only because I followed this chap as a tennis player, Roger [01:39:45] Federer. Oh yeah. Yeah. So I used to play a lot of tennis when I was, when I was younger. And I played for, [01:39:50] for, for a local club. Just junior level. No no no no nothing. Nothing. Amazing. Um, just [01:39:55] sorry, not junior level club level, But ephedrine would be, what, maybe 18 months, [01:40:00] two years older than I am right now. But at the age of when I was about 12 or 13, [01:40:05] I remember someone in the club talking about, oh, there’s this junior coming out [01:40:10] called Roger, Roger Federer from Switzerland. He was about 14 or 15 at the time. I remember we we saw [01:40:15] we saw some saw, saw some video about him or we heard something about him. And he was in my mind from [01:40:20] that day forward. So a lot of people following him. Yeah. So a lot of people followed him, you know, once he’s become successful [01:40:25] and I knew about him. So that iconic, um, match that he, [01:40:30] he played at Wimbledon in, I think it was the fourth round or quarterfinal [01:40:35] maybe in the fourth round against Tim Henman where he beat him. But that was [01:40:40] the coming of Roger Federer, because I think the next year he came back and he won the tournament. Um, [01:40:45] so I’ve always followed him. What I like about him is just he makes tennis [01:40:50] look so lovely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Afzal Haque: And if [01:40:55] I would like to be like him in my profession, I was like, I don’t want to make want to be as [01:41:00] finesse and beautiful in my work as as he makes tennis [01:41:05] look and a gentleman family man and reached [01:41:10] the top of his game. So he was he definitely be the the one [01:41:15] that I’d have.

Payman Langroudi: And both of those two have come on dinner parties on this show. [01:41:20]

Afzal Haque: Have they?

Payman Langroudi: Many times.

Afzal Haque: Oh gosh. Um and he would be the last one. Um, [01:41:25] I mean it’s hard, it’s hard to hard to pick, pick the last [01:41:30] one. Um, but I’m gonna, I’m gonna mention [01:41:35] this, this chat and I don’t think anyone probably has mentioned this, but I’m a big United fan and I [01:41:40] grew up in Manchester. I went to school in East Manchester as a, as [01:41:45] a primary school lad, where I went to a predominantly white school working class area, and [01:41:50] I was the only coloured lad in the not in the class in the school. The reason I went [01:41:55] to that school, because my dad taught in the feeder, um, secondary school. So it was easier for him in those days [01:42:00] we got in. But my favourite footballer of all time is not going to be your obvious guy is [01:42:05] Andy Cole. Oh, Andy Cole is my favourite footballer of all time. And [01:42:10] one of the main reasons is, is that when he came on the scene when he signed for United, I think it was 95, he [01:42:15] he’s off colour and he helped [01:42:20] people like us when we were the only coloured lad in the class. We’re all playing football, we were all playing [01:42:25] football and we all want to be a player. We all want to be Eric Cantona or or so on. And [01:42:30] I was Andy Cole, I was Andy Cole and and and I played the striker [01:42:35] like he did. And he did wonders for I wonders for [01:42:40] for United. And I think.

Payman Langroudi: Did you suffer with racism. Yeah. In school.

Afzal Haque: At primary school a [01:42:45] lot a lot. So like like I mentioned, I was the only coloured lad in that school [01:42:50] and my, it was convenient for my father to send me to that school, but I. I’d have assemblies [01:42:55] on who I was because the kids [01:43:00] in the school did not did not understand what why I was brown. I had, [01:43:05] um, kids come and say to me, um, why? Why have you got chocolate on your face? Why don’t [01:43:10] you wipe it off? Or why are you brown? And why are we not and make some [01:43:15] silly remarks. And I remember it wasn’t until my brother joined two years later that [01:43:20] things got a little bit more normal, and then more kids. And there was a local pharmacist whose son [01:43:25] joined, but we would have little scraps at school, my brother and myself. And um, [01:43:30] we would, um, get called and we’d have to have an assembly. Like he is no [01:43:35] different to the rest of you. And that happened a lot in primary. Yeah. I, it didn’t, it didn’t bother me [01:43:40] so much.

Payman Langroudi: In school at that sort of age. All you want is to fit in.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And if you’ve got this [01:43:45] obvious reason why you’re not fitting in, absolutely. You can put it like a.

Afzal Haque: Massive, massive.

Payman Langroudi: Do [01:43:50] you think do you put your success down to surviving that? I don’t.

Afzal Haque: Know. I suppose at the time I didn’t take much notice [01:43:55] of it. Um, because, because, because my dad worked in a, in a similar environment, he was fine. He [01:44:00] just said, oh, just, just forget about it. But then sporting heroes, like at [01:44:05] the time, Andy Cole for United, there was Paul Ince, they, they played, played for my favourite club. [01:44:10] Um, not long after Prince Naseem Hamed came on the scene in boxing. I’m [01:44:15] a big boxing fan. I love boxing and, and he put us people of a similar colour on the map [01:44:20] and. Yeah. So these things made a difference. But no, it didn’t bother [01:44:25] me that much. But when I went to high school, I went to a very mixed high school. So the high school I [01:44:30] went to was closer to where I lived. So the primary school was further away because that was my dad worked, [01:44:35] but high school was closer to our family home, and we live in a very multicultural area. And [01:44:40] I found that bizarre, how we’re seeing people that look a bit like me and all different [01:44:45] walks of life. It was brilliant. So I don’t think it made much difference [01:44:50] because since then, since leaving that premise, I’ve never had. I can honestly say I’ve never had any problem with this. [01:44:55] Um, I know some people have, but I’ve never been, um, a victim [01:45:00] of that and I don’t think it’s ever held me back. Um, whether I can see it, I don’t [01:45:05] know, but I don’t feel it has.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I wasn’t a massive fan of him yet, [01:45:10] but, um the Prime Minister was in India. Yeah, absolutely. I didn’t think I’d [01:45:15] see that. Yeah. That was, that was brilliant wasn’t it? Yeah. I did not think I’d see that. Yeah. And [01:45:20] even though I wasn’t a fan of Rishi um his policies.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I still [01:45:25] thought good on good on Britain for doing. Absolutely.

Speaker 4: Absolutely.

Afzal Haque: And I think.

Payman Langroudi: Pulling that off. [01:45:30]

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Afzal Haque: It’s important. But um yeah it did it bother me. Not [01:45:35] really. I, um, I just, I just got to be put at the front of the class in front of everybody else. [01:45:40] And I was like the sense of retention for a few moments. But yeah, so, so he’d be my [01:45:45] third call And it’s probably no one’s going to sportsmen. Yeah, because I [01:45:50] love sports. I’m a big fan. My son is into. I’m living. My wife says you’re living your childhood through [01:45:55] your son.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Afzal Haque: So which I am doing, I’m not gonna I’m not gonna lie for him. He’s a he’s a really good sportsman. [01:46:00] So football, cricket does everything. And I love going around and, and watching, [01:46:05] watching. Yeah. It’s one thing I was a good cricketer, but my parents [01:46:10] were the limiting factor because what you’re going to do with [01:46:15] it, you know, you’re not going to make it. Uh, I was a good bowler. Um, but I [01:46:20] didn’t have that fan following that my son gets today. Um, and I think it’s [01:46:25] a world of difference makes all the difference. He looks out for me and when he’s done something good, he wants that acknowledgement. [01:46:30] And dad’s watching. Dad’s giving him the thumbs up. I think that’s brilliant. Um, I have no regrets. [01:46:35] And I don’t blame my parents because it’s a different era, different philosophy, different the [01:46:40] different circumstances. But if I had a chance, I would have loved to have progressed [01:46:45] a little bit further in in sports, but hey, we’ve not [01:46:50] done too badly.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing, man. I really enjoyed that. Um, [01:46:55] learnt a lot from you, man. Thank you. Um, you know what I should do? I should put out like a little if [01:47:00] you want to be an endodontist sort of like a highlight reel of yours and emsas and.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, [01:47:05] because they’re all different journeys. Yeah. All different journeys, but ended up in the same place. So [01:47:10] it’s, I mean.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a really, really, really small world. And like, you guys all know, like [01:47:15] everyone in the, in the community.

Afzal Haque: It’s a very small world. Like you said, um, there’s not many of us, but. [01:47:20]

Payman Langroudi: Mm. You know. Mm.

Afzal Haque: Yes. Yeah. Um, but the take [01:47:25] home message is, is that no matter where you started from, [01:47:30] you can do whatever you want. And I’m, I’m living proof of that. Um, you don’t have to [01:47:35] have that perfect CV. Um, you can go this route, that route, that route, whichever. [01:47:40] And life takes different turns.

Payman Langroudi: You’re very, very, very determined and and very ambitious [01:47:45] too. I was, as you were telling the story, I’m sitting here thinking, you know, you don’t have to like [01:47:50] you could have been a dentist with a bit of an interest in anything, but not a bit of endo. Yeah. And [01:47:55] continue to be that. But yeah, I want to get better at this. Yeah. Then, well, want to become a specialist? [01:48:00] Yeah. And I think they have another associate specialist working for you. You know.

Afzal Haque: I think you get one.

Payman Langroudi: Life naturally [01:48:05] to you. I think yeah, the stuff that comes naturally to us, we don’t sort of think of it. [01:48:10] It just comes naturally, isn’t it?

Afzal Haque: Well, I think in life generally you’ll be successful [01:48:15] if if you’re good at something and you take it somewhere, you’ll generally be quite good at it. And [01:48:20] the way I look at it, you’ve got one life.

Payman Langroudi: To.

Afzal Haque: Live up to. You do whatever you can. Um, [01:48:25] it’s like Anthony Joshua says, you know the boxer. Stay hungry, stay humble. Yeah. Always [01:48:30] have to be hungry. And if I was gonna give any advice to anybody is that, you know, the cliche term, don’t give up. [01:48:35] That goes without saying. But you can do whatever you want to do [01:48:40] as long as you have a focus and you know, you try and line up everything so [01:48:45] that so that you reach that goal. And if you don’t reach it, if you don’t become a specialist, you will be the next [01:48:50] level down. And that’s still very, very good. But don’t limit your ambitions. Um, [01:48:55] try to tell my kids this every single day driving when I drive them to school. Say, you’re the best. [01:49:00] You’re you’re brilliant. Touch the sky. Work the hardest you can [01:49:05] do. Just be the best version of yourself and go and win the day. That’s my [01:49:10] line to them. And when they get out of the car, go and win the day. Whatever it is, whether it’s sport, [01:49:15] your studies, you know, being the politest person, being the best mannered, doing something [01:49:20] nice for somebody else.

Payman Langroudi: You accept your dad didn’t say this or.

Afzal Haque: No.

Payman Langroudi: No he.

Afzal Haque: Didn’t. My dad was very tough. [01:49:25]

Payman Langroudi: And yet you, you you did. So maybe. Maybe you’re overcompensating, maybe I am. I [01:49:30] don’t know where I’m going, but my dad, the first time he told me he’s proud of me was when I stuck 16 veneers [01:49:35] on him, aged, aged 30 or something. Yeah. And now I tell my kids I’m proud of them [01:49:40] too much.

Afzal Haque: I think that’s.

Payman Langroudi: True. Meanings gone from it. You know.

Afzal Haque: My dad’s never said that. But but, [01:49:45] you know, he he acknowledges it.

Payman Langroudi: He boasts about it.

Afzal Haque: To other people. Well, he doesn’t even do that. He just, he just [01:49:50] he just goes, he just like, yeah, yeah, it’s fine if he gets silence from me. You [01:49:55] know, you’ve done all right. But you’re right. I think I probably overcomplicate with my kids, but do you know what I [01:50:00] think? You always try and give them what you didn’t have.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Afzal Haque: And every walk of life.

Payman Langroudi: Of course it’s natural. [01:50:05]

Afzal Haque: Yeah. I mean, you educate, educate them the best. You give up whatever you can [01:50:10] to make sure they have it. And I think that’s the the circle of life.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks so much for doing this. We [01:50:15] really enjoyed it.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure you tune in for [01:50:20] future episodes. Hit subscribe in iTunes or Google Play or whatever [01:50:25] platform it is. And you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you would, um, give [01:50:30] us.

Payman Langroudi: A six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. That’s what I always leave my Uber driver. [01:50:35]

Payman Langroudi: Thanks a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by enlighten. Recently, one of the groups did a survey to understand [00:00:05] what is the most profitable thing that they can do in their Dental chair and enlighten came in as the second most profitable [00:00:10] thing, coming in at £900 per hour. So if your dental chair is busy, [00:00:15] it should be busy doing things like enlighten. Come and join us on enlighten Online training to [00:00:20] fully understand how to do the process, how to talk to patients about it. Deliver brilliant results [00:00:25] every time. Enlighten online training.com.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [00:00:40] in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:50] gives me great pleasure to welcome Patricia Galuska onto the podcast. Patricia [00:00:55] is a practice manager in Warwick and I’m really happy to have a [00:01:00] practice manager on because I don’t think I’ve had many. And I [00:01:05] don’t know if you heard the episode we had with Mark Allen of Bupa, the CEO [00:01:10] of Bupa Dental, and he said that he’s a seasoned professional, like he’s [00:01:15] been in insurance, he’s been in this, that, and the other. Now he’s running 8000 people in [00:01:20] Bupa dental care. And he said the hardest job he’s come across as practice manager. All [00:01:25] the different roles you have to play with employed people, self-employed people, [00:01:30] patients, compliance and so on. And I’ve been following your content. [00:01:35] It’s one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you because it’s really lovely content, very helpful content.

Patrycja Galonzka: Thank [00:01:40] you.

Payman Langroudi: And I know how hard it is to make content alongside everything [00:01:45] else you’ve got to do.

Patrycja Galonzka: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but that’s a pleasure to have you. Um, I want [00:01:50] to kind of start with how did you end up in Dental?

Patrycja Galonzka: Thank you. [00:01:55] It’s a pleasure to be here and thank you for having me. So before I came to [00:02:00] UK, I was only 19. I finished my A-levels and my goal [00:02:05] was always to be actually in the healthcare. So it was just to really [00:02:10] decide if I want to be a dental hygienist or doing the healthcare management. [00:02:15] Came to UK over the summer time just to work before I [00:02:20] wanted to start uni from Poland. From Poland. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Was it actual A-levels or Polish [00:02:25] equivalent of A-levels?

Patrycja Galonzka: I think it’s equivalent, yes. Yes. So I was just basically [00:02:30] finishing that and then ready to go to uni. Yeah. Came here [00:02:35] with the goal just to work, save some money and go back. But I think after [00:02:40] a month we had the loss in our family. And I felt like a [00:02:45] different kind of responsibility over the night. Mhm. And I felt [00:02:50] this is the opportunity you can miss. And I decided I want to [00:02:55] stay. And I remember my mom’s reaction and my family was like, what? [00:03:00] They were not probably happy with it, but I’m so glad I stayed. [00:03:05] And I first started working as a barista and a waitress in [00:03:10] a local cafe in the morning, in the evening in the restaurant. After [00:03:15] a few years, I felt that I have to do something. I really want to be in [00:03:20] the health care. And I applied for a trainee dental nurse via CV and [00:03:25] got a job front of line. Now I’m in the clinic and [00:03:30] progressed from trainee dental nurse. Step by step to lead dental [00:03:35] nurse practice manager. And after that I moved to the business [00:03:40] manager where I’m currently at. Spi smiles.

Payman Langroudi: So this sort of [00:03:45] determination that you clearly have, would you say that sort of the inflection [00:03:50] point was when your uncle passed away?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes, I.

Patrycja Galonzka: Remember. [00:03:55]

Payman Langroudi: That person before.

Patrycja Galonzka: I was. I was really like, raised [00:04:00] in a way that discipline is something that takes you to where you want to be. Um, [00:04:05] but what he told me is the last time I remember seeing him go [00:04:10] and try. You can always come back. If you’re not going to try, you will never know. [00:04:15] And that’s my courage to today’s days to be honest. So [00:04:20] I feel like if you don’t try, you will never know if that’s something for you or not. And [00:04:25] I knew that healthcare was my goal, but doing the waitress and barista [00:04:30] job before it helped me as well to connect with different people, to [00:04:35] save them, to work under the pressure as well. So those skills were [00:04:40] very transferable to actually to the dental practice.

Payman Langroudi: We were talking about Prav before. Prav [00:04:45] is one of my cohosts. Yeah, he him and his brother. I don’t know if you’ve come across his brother Caleb.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. [00:04:50] He’s Dental.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, both of them are most super successful people, and both [00:04:55] of them put working in their dad’s shop as one of the key things that makes [00:05:00] them successful. Because both of them can talk, right? They can.

Patrycja Galonzka: Talk.

Payman Langroudi: And not rubbish [00:05:05] either. Both of them can really hold the room. Yes. And Prav was telling me, you know, like when you when you sit behind [00:05:10] the till and you have to talk to the 78 year old lady who [00:05:15] just wants a conversation and the businessman who’s in a hurry, and the kid who’s come [00:05:20] to rob your store.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh my God. Yeah, because.

Payman Langroudi: You just learn how to communicate with.

Patrycja Galonzka: People. [00:05:25]

Payman Langroudi: So you feel like that barista job was like an important point there, right?

Patrycja Galonzka: Absolutely. [00:05:30] Dealing with the.

Payman Langroudi: Public.

Patrycja Galonzka: Right?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. And especially coming to UK when I was only 19. [00:05:35] Same again. You had to save people from a different groups youngsters [00:05:40] to the elderly people. But I always connected better with elderly people. I [00:05:45] don’t.

Patrycja Galonzka: Know why. Me too, me too. Me too. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How about when? When? If I said, how would you characterise your childhood [00:05:50] in Poland. Like what was the what was that like?

Patrycja Galonzka: It was definitely [00:05:55] my mom. She’s like a superwoman to me.

Patrycja Galonzka: What does she do?

Patrycja Galonzka: So she was [00:06:00] actually a dental nurse for some time as well. Yeah, yeah. And I remember going to [00:06:05] the clinic and then I was helping her with the X-ray cards. You [00:06:10] know, the paper records. She was so cool. Um, and then she had a shop like [00:06:15] a, you know, auto shop like the performs in here in, in UK. Um, [00:06:20] but yeah, she was just raising us in such a beautiful way with very, [00:06:25] with a high discipline, like be grateful for what you’ve got and [00:06:30] just never give up. And that’s what I’m trying to say to my daughter. Just never give up. [00:06:35] Try but never give up. And now when she reads the books, she gets frustrated [00:06:40] sometimes when she can’t read it. And I can hear it like, never give up, never give up. It’s [00:06:45] just so cute to see.

Patrycja Galonzka: Which year were you born?

Patrycja Galonzka: 92.

Patrycja Galonzka: 92.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. [00:06:50]

Payman Langroudi: So. So you don’t remember the transition of Poland from communism? [00:06:55]

Patrycja Galonzka: Not so much.

Payman Langroudi: Just stories, I guess.

Patrycja Galonzka: Stories from my grandfathers. [00:07:00] So I remember going around like a lot of different people who actually [00:07:05] went through this experience and myself and a few other friends from school. [00:07:10] We actually combine all articles into like a one booklet. Really? Yeah, yeah, [00:07:15] I remember we won like a competition at school. And yeah, it was so, so [00:07:20] amazing to connect.

Patrycja Galonzka: With people in.

Payman Langroudi: That country. I’ve been there twice. Okay, both [00:07:25] times to Warsaw. But the, I think in the two times I went there was like maybe a four [00:07:30] year, five year gap. In that five years, the town completely changed.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh, yes. [00:07:35]

Payman Langroudi: And now again, right now. Now it’s kind of experiencing a golden period, right. Did [00:07:40] you ever consider going back or. No.

Patrycja Galonzka: No.

Patrycja Galonzka: I think the first few years, probably [00:07:45] a few times, Because you just missed that home, your family.

Patrycja Galonzka: It [00:07:50] takes.

Payman Langroudi: Five years. I think when you move, it takes five years. I agree because for the first 2 or 3 [00:07:55] years, you fit in nowhere.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t fit in here. You don’t fit in there anymore.

Patrycja Galonzka: Correct.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:08:00] then after five years, you start thinking maybe this is home, you know, like a.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah, [00:08:05] I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what I.

Patrycja Galonzka: Think.

Patrycja Galonzka: I think five years it’s. Yeah, I agree on that because [00:08:10] the first few years you just work hard, you try to enjoy the life and [00:08:15] you literally don’t know what you’re doing. And after that time, I’m like, oh, should I go back? Should I [00:08:20] stay? Then you question yourself. But when you hit that five years, you should [00:08:25] exactly know if you’re connected or actually, this is not for me. Maybe I should go back, [00:08:30] but for me, I knew it straight away. Really? After a few years that I want to stay [00:08:35] here. I love the diversity in this country. Lots of different backgrounds, [00:08:40] different people with different cultures, different languages. [00:08:45] I really, really love that.

Payman Langroudi: If you’re a curious person, you can’t.

Patrycja Galonzka: Be.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t be bored [00:08:50] here in that sense, right? There’s so much.

Patrycja Galonzka: To.

Payman Langroudi: Learn from so many.

Patrycja Galonzka: Different people. Exactly. [00:08:55]

Payman Langroudi: But so you know, your upbringing. Okay. A lot of discipline. All of that. And [00:09:00] then you come here and you work your butt off. Is there anything that you would change? Like when [00:09:05] you say you give your daughters the same lessons? Do you feel like maybe you didn’t live [00:09:10] your 19, 20, 21 year old because you know, that’s a, that should be a carefree [00:09:15] time, right?

Patrycja Galonzka: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And you were building and working and all of that. Were [00:09:20] you enjoying as well? Did you, did you, would you do it differently at all? And would you tell your daughter to do it differently? [00:09:25]

Patrycja Galonzka: No, I would definitely didn’t want it or wouldn’t like [00:09:30] to change the way she wants to build her future. Yeah. Um, I can pass my lessons [00:09:35] to her. I mean, we go through this as adults as well. You know, when you have your [00:09:40] parents, they tell you, please do a, B, C, d.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: But you might do [00:09:45] it and you may not.

Patrycja Galonzka: But you might do.

Payman Langroudi: X, y.

Patrycja Galonzka: Z.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly what I’m what I’m the way [00:09:50] the reason I’m asking you is I get I get a lot of young dentists contact me.

Patrycja Galonzka: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: For advice. What [00:09:55] should I do next? Yeah, that’s all the time. I mean, I like five, [00:10:00] six times a week. I get someone asking me something like this. Yeah. And and, you know, [00:10:05] in your 20s, one of the things you’ve got is sort of you can’t, you can’t wait to get [00:10:10] things going. You know, you haven’t got patience.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh yes.

Payman Langroudi: And sometimes I’ve got a 26 year old [00:10:15] dentist asking, you know, I’m thinking about doing this, but what about doing that? And, and I think to myself, [00:10:20] if they do nothing for four years, then there’ll be a 30 year old [00:10:25] dentist. Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: And yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: The time is the gold.

Patrycja Galonzka: I know, but there’ll be a 30.

Payman Langroudi: Year old and [00:10:30] there’s still a young dentist. Yeah. You could do literally nothing like sit on their hands for four years. Yeah. [00:10:35] I’m not saying do that. Yeah, but there’s an element of guilt [00:10:40] Built into a lot of people, especially like a dentist or someone from [00:10:45] age 14 has had to decide to become a dentist. Gcses, A levels, dental [00:10:50] school, all of that stuff. And so they’re so built on speed [00:10:55] that you’re thinking, hey, come on, man, go travel. And you know, like take a. [00:11:00]

Patrycja Galonzka: Year out or.

Payman Langroudi: Something. Yeah. And enjoy life a little bit.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s not the end of [00:11:05] the world. You make a decision like your your uncle said to you, you make a decision. You decide to go off the [00:11:10] prosthetics, whatever it is.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: You can reverse the decision. It’s not the end of the world. It’s nothing. [00:11:15]

Patrycja Galonzka: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: But people get themselves in a state about. I don’t think I’m doing enough and very [00:11:20] competitive. It’s quite hard to get in. So the people who get in are very competitive people to start with.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. [00:11:25] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So so that’s what I’m kind of asking, you know, like, for instance, I was trying to tell my son, take [00:11:30] one year off between school and university and um.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. [00:11:35]

Payman Langroudi: He didn’t, he did it in the end. But why not? You know, like, what’s the point of all of this? Why [00:11:40] are you working here? So that you can take a year off. Somewhere along the [00:11:45] line.

Patrycja Galonzka: I think that’s what you have to make sure you understand as much. You’re [00:11:50] building something and you’ve got a passion for it. It’s amazing. But you shouldn’t sacrifice [00:11:55] the joy or the small moments that actually makes life real. Um, [00:12:00] I think it’s the balance. Yes. Because it’s so easy [00:12:05] to get trapped in that busy, you know, reactive mode. Bang bang [00:12:10] bang. Next. But I realised and I was there to, to be honest. Yeah. [00:12:15] Like constantly one qualification, next one. I want to be Leaders now. [00:12:20] I want to be practice manager. What’s next? But I think it’s very important sometimes [00:12:25] to stop and to reflect. Um, and I had someone actually who [00:12:30] told me that because I was constantly looking for new opportunities and he [00:12:35] told me, sit down and just think and see [00:12:40] what you’ve already achieved. And I remember that day I went to the coffee shop [00:12:45] and I opened my laptop and a pen and a paper, and I’ve listed exactly what I’ve managed [00:12:50] to do. Did my first article, which Daniel, was published in the bdj. [00:12:55] All my story and I’m like, actually, Patricia, well done to you. [00:13:00] But I.

BOTH: Think.

Payman Langroudi: It’s good. That must have felt good.

BOTH: Yes.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. I was so happy. And then [00:13:05] shortly after I just applied for the awards as well. Same again. Before I [00:13:10] was just too busy even thinking about it.

Payman Langroudi: What practice [00:13:15] manager of the year type thing?

BOTH: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: So I was highly commended last year. Yes. And [00:13:20] that was just oh, it was just like cherry on the cake for me. I [00:13:25] felt, oh, okay, that feels great. And yes, of course I want to grow more and [00:13:30] achieve more. But now it’s got that a different purpose. Yeah. [00:13:35]

Payman Langroudi: Do you know about awards like people, some people think awards are really like, um, a negative [00:13:40] thing. Oh, really? Do you know about that?

Patrycja Galonzka: No. Why?

Payman Langroudi: Because, [00:13:45] you know, like, especially if it’s like, you know, they get like, oh, best dentist North. Yeah. [00:13:50]

BOTH: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: The guy who wins the award isn’t the best dentist in the North. He isn’t. Yeah. [00:13:55] The best dentist in the north might be not even in the awards, because he’s too busy being the best dentist [00:14:00] in the North.

BOTH: Yes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But then. Then the award comes out and it says, best dentist North. This cat. [00:14:05] Yeah.

BOTH: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And so this cat was the best [00:14:10] award entry in the North.

BOTH: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Which that even that [00:14:15] doesn’t make him the best dentist in the competition. Yeah, yeah. Because the award entry says, oh, what are you doing for charity? What [00:14:20] are you doing for this? He’s, like, answered these questions really well.

BOTH: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Um, by [00:14:25] the way, I don’t mind. I like it, I think like it’s, uh, anything you can get for marketing [00:14:30] or for making yourself feel like you’ve gotten somewhere. Raise the standards in general. I get [00:14:35] all the plus side of it. Yes, but sometimes you got to understand the negatives. There’s a bunch of dentists who hate awards. [00:14:40] They hate the whole culture of awards.

Patrycja Galonzka: I know a few, [00:14:45] actually.

BOTH: Yeah, yeah. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And this is kind of the reason, right? The kind of [00:14:50] the reason is that, you know, when you say this is the best or something somewhere.

BOTH: Um, [00:14:55] it.

Payman Langroudi: Gets to dentists egos, I guess.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh very much. Ego is the thing in [00:15:00] dentistry.

BOTH: Yeah, yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh for.

BOTH: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: Which I definitely want to get to one question though, before we do.

BOTH: Yes. [00:15:05]

Payman Langroudi: One of the things problems with our profession, I think, is that there isn’t [00:15:10] a very obvious career progression pathway. [00:15:15] Yeah. So but in your case, you’ve gone trainee dental [00:15:20] nurse, the lowest job in the practice.

BOTH: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: To the very top of the [00:15:25] practice. And if it was a corporate now you’d be looking at, I don’t know, a area manager or that [00:15:30] sort of thing.

BOTH: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But what about that? I mean, did you find it that it was [00:15:35] obvious what you had to do to progress? Did you find, like, I sometimes come across principals, [00:15:40] they say I want a nurse who isn’t ambitious. I want a nurse who’s always going [00:15:45] to just turn up, do her job and leave, and then come back the next day. And you.

BOTH: Know, I hear you, though.

Payman Langroudi: Which I don’t like [00:15:50] that way of thinking at all. But what I’m saying is, in our profession, especially in the DCP side, there [00:15:55] isn’t an obvious movement. Did you find that or were you lucky and [00:16:00] you found a place that was supportive of all of that?

BOTH: Um.

Patrycja Galonzka: I would say yes and no. I [00:16:05] think you need to understand your purpose. And sometimes it takes [00:16:10] time. So sometimes you have to do things that you’re not necessarily enjoy or [00:16:15] see as this is it. This is exactly what I want to do to the rest of my life. For example, [00:16:20] for me, that was even before going to dentistry. Barista. Waitress. [00:16:25]

BOTH: Mhm.

Patrycja Galonzka: I couldn’t really see a much of progression there, but I treat [00:16:30] it as a training. I can connect with the people. I know how to save them. [00:16:35] I can get my, you know, skills better. When I went to the dentistry, started [00:16:40] as a trainee dental nurse, but my goal it was being dental hygienist or [00:16:45] healthcare management, but I tried and I just explode [00:16:50] around me what was happening. And I knew I wanted to be somewhere where I [00:16:55] can help people from both sides, people who are working with me, [00:17:00] and also people who we serve. I think that finding your purpose, [00:17:05] the why is very, very important and have that somewhere, you [00:17:10] know, it’s flashing to you every so often. This is where I want to get to.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:17:15] one of those things that isn’t always obvious as well. You have to like, think about it. You have to look into yourself [00:17:20] a little bit as to why. Why is it I am doing all of this?

BOTH: Yes.

Patrycja Galonzka: And Simon [00:17:25] Sinek, he’s my big inspiration. Oh, I love him. And he talks a [00:17:30] lot about why as well. Why do I want to do this? Why? And it’s so easy. [00:17:35] Oh, because I’ll need more money or because it’s you know, this is easy. This [00:17:40] is good profession. But is that really your truly why? So for me, it’s [00:17:45] easy. I want to help. I want to build something that makes difference, [00:17:50] that raises the standards in healthcare, but help people. [00:17:55] And I think what’s happening at the moment is a lot of pressure in dentistry. [00:18:00] There is a lot of pressure. So I feel like I want to help to prevent the burnout [00:18:05] and that firefighting modes that is constantly happening [00:18:10] around.

Payman Langroudi: And so then the two sides of that, when you say the patients [00:18:15] that we serve and then the team and kind of it sounds [00:18:20] obvious, isn’t it, that like a happy team will make happy patients. Yet [00:18:25] a lot of times in dentistry, we don’t prioritise keeping the team happy. [00:18:30] A lot of a lot of practices. You must have come across that, right?

Patrycja Galonzka: I’m afraid. Yes. [00:18:35] And it’s it’s ongoing thing to be honest. I speak to a lot of people [00:18:40] and it’s not just nurses, managers. It could be clinicians [00:18:45] or principals. There is no connection between the team [00:18:50] or, you know, like something I really like the concept I heard somewhere and now I’m [00:18:55] actually trying to as well pass to other people. And the values, [00:19:00] the anti values are the unproductive behaviours in the practice. We don’t [00:19:05] talk about them. You know when you walk into the practice you’ve got beautiful posters. This [00:19:10] is our values. This is what we would like to do. This is what we expect. [00:19:15] But no one talks about the anti values such as gossip. This is not my [00:19:20] job. Blame.

Payman Langroudi: It’s huge.

Patrycja Galonzka: It’s huge. Every team have it but [00:19:25] no one talks about it. Yeah, but I’m very much. Okay, let’s talk about it. Why [00:19:30] these behaviours are coming to our place.

BOTH: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Wherefrom why? How [00:19:35] do we prevent them? How we work together to make sure they’re not coming back. [00:19:40] It’s very, very important.

Payman Langroudi: Get into it a little bit for me. Give me an example. So [00:19:45] my example to you. I’ve worked in maybe five [00:19:50] six practices.

BOTH: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: In my career.

BOTH: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: But I stopped a long time ago. But but [00:19:55] one, one one pattern that I saw was different [00:20:00] kind of power bases.

BOTH: Mhm. Power. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:20:05] classically, classically, either the manager and the head [00:20:10] nurse in one team and everyone else in another team. [00:20:15]

BOTH: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The principal, the manager and the head nurse in one tower. Everyone else, [00:20:20] or even much worse than that, I think, is when, like you have the manager [00:20:25] and her friends, and then the head nurse and her friends. [00:20:30] Like two separate power bases.

Patrycja Galonzka: And it’s a [00:20:35] competition.

BOTH: Competition.

Payman Langroudi: Everything they say is wrong. Everything they do is wrong. And [00:20:40] then when you’re in a practice, you start to realise, okay, this is what’s going down here. Yeah. Yes. And then [00:20:45] introducing an idea into that mix, the total nightmare because we used to have [00:20:50] a practice meeting. Mhm. I was young and full of ideas, so I’d go, oh, why don’t we do [00:20:55] this, that and the other.

BOTH: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And even it wasn’t even the idea itself that was being argued. [00:21:00] It was like they were arguing them. The two teams were arguing each other just [00:21:05] for power, you know, just just for the concept. So how do you in that situation, how [00:21:10] do you unpack that?

Patrycja Galonzka: I think it’s so easy to abuse your [00:21:15] power.

Payman Langroudi: You recognise it, right?

BOTH: You recognise what I’m saying? Yes.

Patrycja Galonzka: It happens every so often. Even [00:21:20] when I speak to people like recruiting people as well. They always [00:21:25] mention that really? Yes. All dentists as well. Same thing. [00:21:30] I just don’t understand why. And I feel this is my mission [00:21:35] to make sure that we realise that this is actually what blocks the growth within the [00:21:40] practice, because you can have a beautiful equipment tech, beautiful practice. [00:21:45] But if your team are not aligned together.

Payman Langroudi: I guess this is the C [00:21:50] in your culture and your Cesar framework.

Patrycja Galonzka: Absolutely. Yes. [00:21:55]

Payman Langroudi: So would you would you tell me before the Cesar framework is like a framework you’ve put together for how to manage a [00:22:00] practice?

BOTH: Correct? Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So go on then. Culture. I guess this goes down to culture, right?

Patrycja Galonzka: Culture is the first [00:22:05] pillar. So Cesar stands for five pillars in total. So we’ve got culture empowerment, [00:22:10] system authority and results. Culture is [00:22:15] the first one because without the culture you won’t be able to tick the next pillars. [00:22:20] So it’s culture based systems.

BOTH: Let’s talk about.

Payman Langroudi: Culture. How do you how do you instil [00:22:25] a good culture in a practice where you’ve got this problem, let’s say, do you all come and agree on, I don’t know, [00:22:30] the rules of engagement. We don’t talk behind each other’s backs. Is that one of them? Like, what [00:22:35] do you do?

Patrycja Galonzka: No, because that sounds really strict.

BOTH: So tell me, you.

Patrycja Galonzka: Know, like the policies I [00:22:40] remember used to review practice rules. That even sounds too much. [00:22:45] So then we’ve made a policy in our practice which we call values. [00:22:50] So we speak to our team, what our values are, what [00:22:55] we would like to achieve, what our goals are. And we really encourage [00:23:00] our team to speak with us. So when we have a meeting, I don’t say, oh, [00:23:05] what’s your do you have any question? Because you know what happens. No, no, we don’t [00:23:10] have any questions.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the opposite of fighting match? Yeah.

BOTH: Well, yes, it. [00:23:15]

Patrycja Galonzka: Can happen, but I usually like to go one by one to hear the Of perspectives because [00:23:20] it’s very important to work on things together. If you don’t work together, [00:23:25] your team can either make or break your system and the culture, as I said, the anti [00:23:30] values, they everywhere.

Payman Langroudi: You bring them up as well.

BOTH: Oh yes.

Payman Langroudi: In the team [00:23:35] you talk about.

BOTH: It, we.

Patrycja Galonzka: Talk as a generally. But when it happens, obviously [00:23:40] it’s my responsibility. You have to address it. But I think culture comes [00:23:45] from both sides as well. What you’ve just told me. It’s not just only the nurses [00:23:50] or, you know, non-clinical team. It comes from your managers, it comes from your leaders [00:23:55] and it comes from your principal.

Payman Langroudi: Principal specifically.

BOTH: Yes, yes.

Patrycja Galonzka: If they’re not present. [00:24:00]

BOTH: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Obviously that reflects the rest of the team. And I believe we [00:24:05] Leaders we bring the weather to the business.

BOTH: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: So if I will come [00:24:10] in really miserable not talking to anyone like.

BOTH: You feel [00:24:15] that.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. So for example, Monday. It’s so funny. Monday is not particularly [00:24:20] the, you know, favourite day to most of the people, but I feel I like Mondays. [00:24:25] I really like Mondays. So before I go to work I usually go for a walk anyway, [00:24:30] half an hour, listen to the podcast or something just to reset my mind. I [00:24:35] go to the practice and before I start to do anything, I [00:24:40] go to each team member and I greet them, ask them, how are [00:24:45] you? How was your weekend? And I just bring that positivity and they just [00:24:50] go on with it.

BOTH: So important.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. And especially on Monday.

BOTH: Yeah [00:24:55] yeah yeah yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Especially on Monday. So I think culture is something [00:25:00] you can’t just miss. And you cannot just leave it because [00:25:05] if you spot that anti value, that behaviour that you know, it [00:25:10] blocks your growth. If you just pass and you not address it, it becomes [00:25:15] a standard. And that’s the problem. And it gets harder and harder. You know, [00:25:20] like when you have these difficult conversations, no one likes them. [00:25:25]

BOTH: No.

Patrycja Galonzka: Like no one likes them. But this is our responsibility. We have [00:25:30] to speak. And I think it’s very easy. I’ve been there as well. Like you have [00:25:35] this conversation and all you hear is like, you did this wrong, this wrong, this wrong. You’ve [00:25:40] got that much time you need to improve. And you feel like, all right. Be [00:25:45] kind. Kindness, I think, is so important from both [00:25:50] sides. Management team.

BOTH: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Patience. When they walk into your practice, [00:25:55] they can feel it. They can see it. When you go there to a reception [00:26:00] room, sit down and the conversation that goes in between at [00:26:05] the reception, of course, people can hear it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s more than even that. It’s just a vibe, [00:26:10] isn’t it?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. Like you said.

Payman Langroudi: They can feel it. But it’s an interesting thing because kindness is [00:26:15] such an important part of what you’re saying, but it’s not thought of in the business [00:26:20] sort of vernacular, in the business narrative. Yeah. Kindness [00:26:25] isn’t something that soft skills.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s almost like if [00:26:30] it’s work, you don’t have to be kind for some reason, you know, like it’s madness in a way when you think about [00:26:35] that.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: But on the other hand, I used to think it enlightened [00:26:40] me were like, you know, let’s, let’s be a big family.

Patrycja Galonzka: Or your team is amazing. I [00:26:45] really, really like your team. Yeah, they are just incredible.

Payman Langroudi: But we thought, let’s [00:26:50] be a big family. Yeah. Like that. I used to think that was the the ultimate goal that [00:26:55] it feels like a family, you know?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: But I’ve changed my position on that now. Now, [00:27:00] now, I think you have to think of it more like a sports team or something.

Patrycja Galonzka: I completely [00:27:05] agree.

Payman Langroudi: Because, number one, you can’t fire your family. Number one.

Patrycja Galonzka: And it’s hard to work with your family.

Payman Langroudi: If [00:27:10] you like. Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: You know what I mean? I completely agree because I had this so many times. [00:27:15] Oh, join to our practice. Our practice. We’re like a family. And I’m [00:27:20] thinking, yes, I love my sister, but to work with her probably every day, we’re very [00:27:25] different.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: That could just bring a little bit more challenge, you know [00:27:30] what I mean? I completely agree. It’s a team like sport team. Achieve something together. [00:27:35] Let’s play together. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what’s your tactic for looking forward to [00:27:40] Monday morning? Is it that you simply love your job?

Patrycja Galonzka: I’m very grateful. And [00:27:45] I would say yes. So I love my job. I’ve got such a passion for it. So.

Payman Langroudi: Or [00:27:50] do you hate your home? No. I’m joking, I’m joking.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. That would be like a holiday time.

BOTH: You know [00:27:55] I’m joking.

Patrycja Galonzka: No, I think yes, I’ve got a big, big passion. [00:28:00] And I think I always had I feel grateful because I [00:28:05] work with an amazing people around me as well. So values again, we have [00:28:10] very similar values, similar goals. And we just want to win. [00:28:15] Like how in principle Doctor Dan, he always tell us that I want you guys [00:28:20] to win. I want to see you win. And I think that value is so [00:28:25] important because we all feel like we are on a mission. We have to win it. He’s [00:28:30] good. And it’s not like win it. In terms of, as you said before, there is a competition in [00:28:35] between, let’s say two departments. It’s to be a better version of ourselves [00:28:40] every single day when we talk about why patients should come and see us. [00:28:45] Yeah. Why? Because we offer amazing service. Yeah. But [00:28:50] why? And again, refer it to your why is very, very private practice. Yes. [00:28:55] It’s a fully private practice squad practice open post pandemic. [00:29:00]

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Patrycja Galonzka: From zero. No momentum, no database.

Payman Langroudi: The headline numbers [00:29:05] now like how many staff have you got?

Patrycja Galonzka: So we started from four [00:29:10] very small to about 15 now.

Payman Langroudi: And how many opera [00:29:15] trees, how many rooms?

Patrycja Galonzka: We’ve got three surgeries.

Payman Langroudi: Three surgeries, working and busy.

Patrycja Galonzka: Every day. [00:29:20] Yes, yes. Very good. Yes, I’m very, very, very proud of what we’ve [00:29:25] achieved. So it’s not like we only build this the team. We now have [00:29:30] high performing practice, amazing community around us. [00:29:35] And we have the very clear membership approach, which obviously helps the [00:29:40] practice to bring that stable income. It’s like a bread and butter I guess for you. [00:29:45] But I think, yes, the value why we are so amazing, why people [00:29:50] should come to see us. And it comes from your team. First thing, if you go on the reviews, there [00:29:55] is a lot of mention about, oh, your team is great, so kind. It’s nice to see [00:30:00] that. And I think this is very important. Like you can have [00:30:05] so many, like I said, tech Equipment. But if you don’t have your team [00:30:10] together.

Payman Langroudi: So when I go, I decided I was going to meet the top 100 [00:30:15] enlightened practices. Yes. Just because I wanted to. I wanted to have some connection [00:30:20] to the market, you know, because you forget once you stop practising, you don’t have connection [00:30:25] to what’s going on out there.

BOTH: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And, um, so I visit these guys [00:30:30] and like you say, straight away, as soon as you walk in, you can feel something. Yes. And [00:30:35] you can imagine I must have been to a thousand more. More than a thousand practices now. Mhm. [00:30:40] And I’ve seen I’ve seen it all right. I’ve seen from the ones [00:30:45] who, when you walk in, no one even looks up.

Patrycja Galonzka: Mhm. [00:30:50]

Payman Langroudi: It’s not even their fault sometimes. Yeah. It’s like there’s not enough humans. There’s not enough staff in [00:30:55] the place, you know, like, maybe it’s a mixed practice for the sake of the argument. People are busy typing [00:31:00] and, and whatever. Yeah. And sometimes I stand there for like six minutes, [00:31:05] you know, No one even acknowledges. Sometimes that does happen.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah it does. [00:31:10]

Payman Langroudi: Um, all the way to the other side. We get some, some amazing practices [00:31:15] out there, man. Some brilliant business people like this boss of yours. Yeah. [00:31:20] Thank you. Brilliant businessman, I’m sure. Yeah. If you put him on a, like [00:31:25] a scale of all businesses, someone would say he’s not even a businessman. He’s a dentist. He’s a professional. [00:31:30] Yeah, yeah. But sometimes those guys are talents. And the talent [00:31:35] really came out during Covid. I thought, you know, when everything was changing every minute and [00:31:40] we didn’t know what was going to happen the day after tomorrow, PPE, this, that and the other furlough. And [00:31:45] you saw some operators were amazing, amazing. And they [00:31:50] could be running gigantic organisations, but they’re running a practice in Blackpool.

BOTH: Yes. [00:31:55]

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And the opposite. Right. And the opposite. And so what I’m saying to [00:32:00] you is that these things have to be worked at. Right. So give [00:32:05] me your. What are your situation? Like, would it happen if I walked into your practice? What’s [00:32:10] the standard thing that will happen because you’ve trained it that way.

BOTH: So you’re [00:32:15] going to get greeted.

Patrycja Galonzka: Well, we have a lot of people knocking to the doors and it’s usually, [00:32:20] oh, sorry, the wrong shop because they think it is a coffee shop. Or they [00:32:25] explain it’s like a spa environment. So it’s not just about the look. [00:32:30] Obviously it looks really non-clinical at the start. You’ve got we’ve got diffusers as well, [00:32:35] essential oils, but it’s the team. So you will be greeted but really [00:32:40] nice team smiling, good energy. How are you today. Oh it’s great to [00:32:45] have you. Um and then would you like anything to drink. Simple as that. It doesn’t [00:32:50] cost. But if you have that connection with people because patients are coming [00:32:55] into the practices, they’re very nervous. You know, like they feel anxious. They’re [00:33:00] probably overthinking what’s going to happen? What are they going to do? Who am I going to see? [00:33:05]

Payman Langroudi: How much is it going to cost?

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh gosh. Money of course.

BOTH: Your mind.

Patrycja Galonzka: Right? Yes. So [00:33:10] we have to make sure they feel safe. Calm.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:33:15] interesting. So sorry. I forgot the point I was trying to make with you on my way to that [00:33:20] practice here in the train, I start reading the Google reviews because you said reviews.

BOTH: Yes, [00:33:25] yes.

Payman Langroudi: There’s different ways of reading reviews. I mean, number one, you’ve got Prav and his tactical process [00:33:30] for how to get more reviews, right? So there’s some sometimes you see loads of great reviews and you think, oh, these [00:33:35] guys are good operators. Yes. Yeah. They know how to get good reviews. Yeah. But what I, the way I read [00:33:40] reviews, I always kind of have a look, look at the one star ones just to see why what that was saying. It tends [00:33:45] to be like, oh, NHS treatment, they didn’t have it or something like that. Yeah. Um, [00:33:50] but I, you know, at the top it says the words that get mentioned the most would [00:33:55] be like hygienist, 16 mentions this whitening, 12 mentions the words that get mentioned [00:34:00] the most, reviews, the key words, those come up at the top. And there’s one particular word I’m looking for when [00:34:05] I go to a practice. You don’t see it often, but every time you see that word when you get there, it’s [00:34:10] a brilliant practice.

BOTH: What is it?

Payman Langroudi: Have a guess.

Patrycja Galonzka: Well, I think this [00:34:15] is what we’re just talking now. Team. Amazing. Team.

Payman Langroudi: Team. Yes. Yes. Yes! But. [00:34:20] No.

BOTH: What is it?

Payman Langroudi: I have one more guess.

Patrycja Galonzka: It [00:34:25] can’t be culture. I [00:34:30] really don’t [00:34:35] know.

Payman Langroudi: You know, in the podcast. In a podcast, silence is [00:34:40] the best thing. It’s like it’s almost built up tension.

BOTH: Yeah. So it’s [00:34:45] just.

Payman Langroudi: Keeping some silence. No. Um. Feel. Feel.

BOTH: Okay. [00:34:50]

Payman Langroudi: They make you feel so comfortable. The way they make you feel, feel, feel, feel, feel. Such a great word.

Patrycja Galonzka: Interesting. [00:34:55]

Payman Langroudi: Um, we should look up yours and see if it’s there.

BOTH: Yeah, I hope so, yeah. But [00:35:00] wow.

Patrycja Galonzka: That’s.

BOTH: Just.

Patrycja Galonzka: Got me here.

BOTH: What I realise.

Payman Langroudi: What I realise every time I see, feel [00:35:05] and I get there. People greet me at the door, people smiling at each other.

BOTH: Mhm. [00:35:10]

Payman Langroudi: Um, everyone’s kind of on time and stuff, you know.

BOTH: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Disorganisation [00:35:15] thing going on because it takes organisation to make people feel good. You know, it’s [00:35:20] like.

BOTH: It’s.

Patrycja Galonzka: A foundation.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a you have to have organisation.

BOTH: First before.

Payman Langroudi: People can [00:35:25] be smiling at each other.

BOTH: Right.

Patrycja Galonzka: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: What was the second one?

Patrycja Galonzka: Culture [00:35:30] or team? Outside team. Yeah.

BOTH: No.

Payman Langroudi: No. But. Caesar.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh. Caesar. Empowerment. [00:35:35]

Payman Langroudi: Empowerment.

BOTH: Go on. Yes.

Patrycja Galonzka: Same again. I’ve learned this from my [00:35:40] lessons. You have to empower your people in order to [00:35:45] not just progress, but to create that sustainable growth within [00:35:50] the practice. The problem is that, and I had this in the practice I used to [00:35:55] work before. I hear this every time. The practice relies on just a few people [00:36:00] and the people that are strong, they rely on the goodwill that [00:36:05] works for a short run. But for a longer run, it’s [00:36:10] going to break. Yeah. Let’s say when it gets busy, very busy. [00:36:15] Standards drop. Someone leaves, someone is off [00:36:20] sick, and then it creates that chaos, the firefighting. So [00:36:25] I’ve learned this. And now within our practice, we are very heavy on [00:36:30] empowerment. Empowerment with the systems. So we create the systems [00:36:35] for our team that they can easily follow and they have that ownership. When [00:36:40] you have the ownership, you feel more responsible for the job that [00:36:45] you do. So it’s not like, oh, this is just my job. They feel really excited and [00:36:50] I love to see when you have your team members that they have a task, that they’ve [00:36:55] never done it before. And they’re like, oh, am I able to do this? And when you see [00:37:00] them step in into that strength.

Payman Langroudi: This is the comfort zone.

BOTH: Thing. Yeah. [00:37:05] Yes.

Patrycja Galonzka: Very important. I feel so satisfied. And then if you [00:37:10] don’t.

BOTH: People don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Like change. So.

BOTH: Oh, no.

Payman Langroudi: What do you do? What do you do to encourage them to step [00:37:15] into the comfort zone? Is it do you do you? For instance, one thing I’ve noticed is very important for [00:37:20] your team to feel like if there’s a mistake, it’s better than if they [00:37:25] never tried.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes, totally.

Payman Langroudi: So mistakes are okay. In fact, if there aren’t mistakes, [00:37:30] we’re not trying things.

BOTH: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: So that giving them that confidence. Yeah.

BOTH: Yes. [00:37:35]

Payman Langroudi: I think kind of an empowerment thing.

BOTH: Right.

Patrycja Galonzka: Lead by example. So I think great [00:37:40] leaders we don’t have all the answers. I think you sometimes you need to [00:37:45] admit it. Well, I’m not too sure about it. Leave that with me. But I think [00:37:50] we should ask better questions and Micromanagement. We know [00:37:55] it’s obviously something quite common and easily to be done. Again, let [00:38:00] them be. Give them the resources. Make sure they understand and [00:38:05] they’re happy to go to try. And as you just said, mistakes and [00:38:10] errors. I like them.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t punish.

BOTH: Them.

Patrycja Galonzka: Know it’s opportunity to grow and [00:38:15] whatever happens and they oh I’m sorry. No, let’s sit down. So what happened exactly [00:38:20] why this happened. And for me, I always feel whatever goes wrong, [00:38:25] I think this is my fault because they are they they were [00:38:30] not clear what to do. Or maybe the system wasn’t good enough. So [00:38:35] then we sit down together. What’s the problem? Where is the mistake? How can [00:38:40] we prevent this? What is their solution? And I love this. Something happens [00:38:45] and then I’ve got my practice operation lead. She comes in. This is what happened, [00:38:50] Patricia. But I’ve got this solution. Are you happy with me to go ahead and do this? [00:38:55]

BOTH: Now we get.

Payman Langroudi: Back to.

BOTH: Culture. Yes.

Patrycja Galonzka: And then what happens? She [00:39:00] does this with the next person and the next person. And then you create that [00:39:05] leadership. So it’s the great book I read. It’s called One Minute Manager. [00:39:10] Yeah. So that’s basically what it is. And then myself, I’ve got [00:39:15] the time to plan, to think, to reflect, to review what’s [00:39:20] happening.

BOTH: Because.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not taking care of all the bullshit in the middle.

BOTH: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Like a firefighting constantly. I’ve [00:39:25] been there. Something breaks. You quickly run to fix.

BOTH: It, fix it yourself.

Patrycja Galonzka: Sometimes it’s [00:39:30] someone is struggling. Oh, let me do this for you. That’s wrong. You [00:39:35] should let them to try and time. Give them time. Check [00:39:40] on them as well. It’s not like, oh, this is what I expect from you to do. That’s it. Make sure [00:39:45] they understand, but make sure you check on them. Make sure it’s actually measurable and Interact [00:39:50] and you’ve got some time. Okay. This is the task. This is how we do it. This is [00:39:55] what good looks like. This is where I expect. And if they struggle, absolutely [00:40:00] fine. Why do you need more support? Do you need more training? [00:40:05] Or maybe same again, go back to the system.

Payman Langroudi: So did you learn this [00:40:10] just from books?

Patrycja Galonzka: Books, working hard in books, in the clinic, connecting [00:40:15] with people. But I think you have to get out from your [00:40:20] work environment. And I’m very much about this, not just [00:40:25] dentistry, because this it will work in GP practice, any [00:40:30] organisation or any organisation. Exactly. So you have to expose [00:40:35] yourself outside of your environment where you actually [00:40:40] day to day basis you go to and you learn and something amazing [00:40:45] from someone. I’m learning now, like you just mentioned before. Patterns. Spot [00:40:50] the patterns and you see the pattern. It happens. And then [00:40:55] now for me, when I see the pattern, I want to find a solution.

Payman Langroudi: Really resonates. [00:41:00] What you said to me about when something goes wrong. It’s an opportunity to learn. I [00:41:05] remember when I was a dentist, I used to love dealing with complaints. [00:41:10]

Patrycja Galonzka: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: And it was like a challenge. It was like, how do I make this the [00:41:15] best reaction to a complaint and turn the patient from [00:41:20] someone unhappy to someone who’s going around telling everyone, you’re brilliant?

BOTH: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And you know, the, [00:41:25] the sometimes you can even take it too far, right? I mean, I’m not going to charge you for [00:41:30] this, this or this.

BOTH: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I’m going to make sure this never happens again or whatever it was. Yeah. [00:41:35] But I used to love the process and it was so interesting. It was just a reframing in your [00:41:40] own head because a complaint used to ruin your month before [00:41:45] you take it personally.

BOTH: That’s it.

Payman Langroudi: You think the person’s an idiot? [00:41:50] What you said about taking the blame for stuff I’ve now come to realise. It’s [00:41:55] the happiest way of working is to take full responsibility for everything [00:42:00] that goes wrong yourself. Yeah, especially if you’re in a leadership role.

BOTH: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: In the [00:42:05] end, you could have fired that person. You could have not hired that person. Yeah. In the end. [00:42:10] Whereas if you don’t do that, then your happiness is [00:42:15] predicated on that person’s day. Yeah. So sometimes [00:42:20] that person comes in and has a bad day. Now you’re having a bad day. Whereas if you [00:42:25] take the blame for that person having a bad day. I didn’t train him. I didn’t give him the incentives, [00:42:30] I didn’t. Whatever it was, I hired them in the first place.

BOTH: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Now it’s your your actions [00:42:35] that dictate whether you’re going to be happy or not and not someone else’s. And especially when you’re a manager [00:42:40] of 16 people, that’s 16 variables that you’re going to have [00:42:45] to take the blame for.

BOTH: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Which is better than saying, you know, each one of them [00:42:50] is a problem. I’m a problem. That’s that’s the best way to take it. Even if it wasn’t you [00:42:55] directly, you know.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. I think this is very important for the readers [00:43:00] to understand. And as you just mentioned about the complaints, we should change [00:43:05] the mindset of how we feel and see that because we tend to, [00:43:10] as you said, take this too much personally. Yeah. Um, and I think this is where [00:43:15] you have to be very logical and then again, involve your team, because [00:43:20] if you just deal with the complaint by yourself, yes, [00:43:25] you can learn from it, but it may happen again because your team wasn’t [00:43:30] aware about it. So you have to actually sit down together and learn together. [00:43:35] And as you said, it’s a team approach. We on this together, [00:43:40] we learn together, we make mistakes. Together We win together and [00:43:45] celebrate together.

Payman Langroudi: Do you? Do you go out and stuff?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. So we celebrate [00:43:50] in different ways. Going out number one. But our celebration as well, [00:43:55] it’s creating the social media content, which is like a twice a month, but [00:44:00] we have a very chilled day. Um, and then now we came up with a different sort of idea [00:44:05] to do some reality show. So it’s such a fun day. [00:44:10] We usually like get some pizza or chips as well. But yeah, we, [00:44:15] we do celebrate together for sure because it’s very, very important to [00:44:20] keep us going to make us a line.

BOTH: You know.

Payman Langroudi: I do some in practice training [00:44:25] for enlighten and it’s part of a like a process, right? [00:44:30] It’s a process of we’re going to try for one week doing this new idea [00:44:35] of how.

BOTH: We’re going to do it.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s kind of like a, we’re going to talk to every patient about the colour of their teeth [00:44:40] and this sort of thing.

BOTH: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s different ways of doing it. Yeah. Sometimes it could be reception led where [00:44:45] they ask for permission.

BOTH: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: For shade taking. Sometimes it’s the dentists all doing [00:44:50] it. Sometimes it’s hygienist led. Anyway, it’s kind of, you know, no one likes change. Yeah. [00:44:55] So if I say in next week we’re going to do this, it’s like extra hassle for everyone, [00:45:00] right? So one thing that I say to the principals is you need to [00:45:05] do something in that week to make up for the fact that I’ve just [00:45:10] written their week by saying, you have to do all this stuff. Yeah. And then I asked the question, what would it take? [00:45:15] What? What is it? What, what could you change about work to make [00:45:20] it look forward to coming to work more than you already look forward to coming [00:45:25] to work.

BOTH: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And you’ll be amazed. The number of people and the vast majority of cases, [00:45:30] everyone just sitting there and can’t think of what to say. And then some people, some, some people [00:45:35] say, oh, give me more money or something. Yeah. But that’s a different part of my talk. Yeah, yeah. That’s more. [00:45:40]

Patrycja Galonzka: Transactional.

Payman Langroudi: There is that there is that, hey, if we hit this target, everyone gets a night out or whatever. [00:45:45] That’s another part. But this part that says, what do we have to do to make it [00:45:50] more fun to come to work? Yeah. Amazing how that should be front [00:45:55] and centre. Yeah. The most, one of the most important conversations that should be had. How [00:46:00] can we make work more fun? Yeah. And yet so [00:46:05] rare. So rare that anyone has anything to say on the matter. Yeah. Sometimes [00:46:10] there’s this little look on people’s faces that they’re never going to do anything like that. Yeah. [00:46:15] Sometimes everyone’s drawing a blank, and then I have to give them an example. Yeah. And I say, oh, what about [00:46:20] every day we finish at 3:00 instead of 5:00? And suddenly people like sit up [00:46:25] and say, wait a minute. Yeah, that would work. Right? Um, and then, you know, you talk about [00:46:30] the effect of that on the practice, but the effect of selling five teeth whitening a day to [00:46:35] the practice as well. Yeah. As, as a, you know, it makes sense. You know, like, [00:46:40] how much do you guys charge for a license? You know.

Patrycja Galonzka: It’s five, nine five.

Payman Langroudi: So any [00:46:45] number times five, nine five is a big number. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it can be transformational [00:46:50] if you talk to every single patient. Mhm. You could do, I don’t know, one per dentist [00:46:55] per day in that period where you really focus. Yeah. It could make up for all sorts [00:47:00] of things that you could provide to the team. Beats a coffee, whatever you want every day, if you want. [00:47:05]

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes, yes.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s not a question anyone can answer. It’s it’s such a funny thing. It’s [00:47:10] like, it’s almost like it’s a bad question or something. People are like, like looking [00:47:15] down.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah, I agree, and I think that’s the same again, people [00:47:20] sometimes are afraid to speak up.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Um, so [00:47:25] I would say this is undervalue and same again. Yeah, yeah. Because what happened is [00:47:30] when the meeting is finished, they go, they leave and they talk. Oh, I wish [00:47:35] I could say this. Oh, you know what? Maybe we should do this. So this is the [00:47:40] part of actually leadership and your anti values. If they feel safe. [00:47:45] And then if you are connected together they’re going to talk. They’re going to bring [00:47:50] the ideas on the table together. But if that connection [00:47:55] is not there, the culture I’m referring to, they stay quiet. Culture [00:48:00] eats strategy.

Payman Langroudi: Every day man. It does. Yes. So give me some concrete examples [00:48:05] of some of the management kind of tools that you have. I mean, let’s talk let’s [00:48:10] talk KPIs, for instance, which KPIs would you say are the key ones to look out [00:48:15] for.

Patrycja Galonzka: For the practice?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So because there is a problem of too many [00:48:20] KPIs. Yeah. You can’t track.

Patrycja Galonzka: Everything. No.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s you’re not doing anything about [00:48:25] these numbers. So for me, the fewer the better. But key ones like what’s, what are [00:48:30] key KPIs that you look at?

Patrycja Galonzka: I think for each practice will be obviously Dear friends. [00:48:35] Um, and as you just said, you don’t want to track everything because that [00:48:40] will be overwhelming. I think you need to choose up to ten probably [00:48:45] to start with. That’s from Chris Barrow. By the way, the article I’ve read, [00:48:50] it was just amazing. The ten KPIs you should really track, but let’s say five [00:48:55] you need to make sure that the KPIs that you track, you [00:49:00] know, that they deliver that sustainable growth. [00:49:05] And, you know, by seeing them and reviewing them, your business stay [00:49:10] healthy. Yeah. So we are private practice that would be different for NHS because [00:49:15] that’s very heavy on Udas. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or if you were like an ortho practice or whatever. Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Invisalign [00:49:20] referral practice. Yes. But I think private practice.

Payman Langroudi: Come on. What are the key ones. [00:49:25]

Patrycja Galonzka: So how many new patients are coming through each month? How many new exams, [00:49:30] how many new consoles, conversion of how many new patient exams [00:49:35] we convert to, the memberships, of how many new consoles we convert to [00:49:40] stage two of our consultation, or to actually the treatment recalls. [00:49:45] Absolutely, yes. Because that’s your loyal, you know, community that’s still [00:49:50] happy to come in and they want to see you. So that’s, you know, that’s coming in finance, [00:49:55] of course you need to track. And we just recently [00:50:00] added something which is Google reviews. So we did [00:50:05] it for some time, which was working really well. We tried a different systems as well, like [00:50:10] having someone in the background just to send the sms’s or emails. [00:50:15] But then I went through recently to local practices around us and I’m like, [00:50:20] if they can do it, we can do it. So I sat down with my [00:50:25] team and I’m like, look guys, I think we can be better. We just [00:50:30] have a board in our office and I said two a day. I know we can do [00:50:35] two a day, and we have 4 or 5 a day now for the last two weeks. And [00:50:40] I’m like, amazing. So like I said, you can track a lot, [00:50:45] but I think you need to make sure that the numbers you see, you know, your business [00:50:50] is healthy and then KPIs, that doesn’t really refer only to the data [00:50:55] and the numbers, but your team. So how often do you want to. [00:51:00] Once you know your staff turnover your sickness [00:51:05] as well.

Payman Langroudi: I had Andy Acton on recently from Frank Taylor Associates and [00:51:10] he was saying sickness is when he’s looking at a practice, you know, valuing a practice. [00:51:15] Yes. The number of sick days for him is a massive [00:51:20] sort of indicator of culture.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh gosh. Yes. It’s like a red flag. Yeah, [00:51:25] absolutely. Yeah. When it’s too much sickness is happening.

Payman Langroudi: And there’s absolutely nothing you can [00:51:30] do about it. I mean, if someone calls up and says, I’m sick, that’s it. There’s no there’s no.

Patrycja Galonzka: Well, you have to follow [00:51:35] the procedures. Yeah. You have to follow the procedures. But the same again. You need to track [00:51:40] it. Yeah. You need to be aware. The reason of the sickness, how often [00:51:45] how you track it. What’s your action, how you’re following up. You know, we all [00:51:50] have a different story. We all have a different luggages that we carrying [00:51:55] and then us as managers, we need to respect that. You can’t [00:52:00] just, you know, assume things happens or that person does this [00:52:05] because of that. You have to just connect with them as well.

Payman Langroudi: And how [00:52:10] clear are you on, for instance, if I said how many white [00:52:15] things are you doing? Can you pull that up very quickly? And are you are you looking at that [00:52:20] sort of stuff? The number of different treatments. Pound per second per chair type approach [00:52:25] we do.

Patrycja Galonzka: But we still actually working on it. So [00:52:30] that’s also my mission because I’ve noticed there is a lot of systems that they [00:52:35] track your numbers. Now you can easily connect to your software, but I found [00:52:40] that it’s still not enough so they can track your conversion per clinician, [00:52:45] how many treatments they managed to convert, your recall systems [00:52:50] and things like that.

Payman Langroudi: Have you heard of Medfin and Dental CFO? No, [00:52:55] I had both of them on here. Um, they’re like AI systems that, [00:53:00] um, you almost talk to it like ChatGPT and ask a question [00:53:05] about your, your patients, um, like, like literally you say, so which one of my [00:53:10] associates is doing best right now? And, and figures [00:53:15] it out. Um, and it’s connected to everything like back end, basically the whole business [00:53:20] is that the plumbing to all the different.

Patrycja Galonzka: I’ll have to check.

Payman Langroudi: Systems. Yeah. [00:53:25] But where I’m going with it is with AI, you’re going to have a lot more. I mean, give it another [00:53:30] three years I reckon. Yeah. There’s going to be the patient’s AI will [00:53:35] contact the practice’s AI to make the appointment. There’ll be no human involved in that. [00:53:40] Yeah. Because AI to AI.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Ai to humans a bit. [00:53:45] You know, am I talking to a machine and whatever it is. Yes. Yeah. Which, by the way, I don’t know about you. I’m [00:53:50] not interested in phoning Amazon to buy something from Amazon. [00:53:55] Mhm. Yeah. I don’t want to talk to a human. I want to just go on their pick my thing and get out. Yeah. It’s [00:54:00] much easier not talking to a human to buy my deodorant at Amazon than [00:54:05] to talk to a human and say, yeah, so. So we think, oh, you know, we’re a healthcare business. [00:54:10] We’re a people business. And all people are nervous. We’re always going to need people. But [00:54:15] very quickly, these things can change. You know, there was a there was a shop owner in Gdansk [00:54:20] saying, I’m in the shop. People come have a chat with me. You know, the whole [00:54:25] Prav thing. The old lady. It’s real. But there’s also this. You [00:54:30] know, like, push a few buttons and the thing arrives. So, so so going forward, [00:54:35] we’re going to have much more ability to look at numbers.

Patrycja Galonzka: I can’t wait.

Payman Langroudi: Much more time [00:54:40] for our people to care for our patients, because they’re not busy filling [00:54:45] forms and things manually. Spreadsheets, all of that will be done by machines. [00:54:50] And I was going to ask you, so do you use AI?

Patrycja Galonzka: We do. Yes, we do AI we [00:54:55] use for team training. So we use a software called Synthesia. [00:55:00] Yeah. It’s amazing. I really, really enjoy using it.

Payman Langroudi: And explain it just from beginning, like [00:55:05] what.

Patrycja Galonzka: Happens, you know, like old fashioned way you do that team presentation [00:55:10] through PowerPoint and now people use Canva or Canva as well. You can use AI [00:55:15] prompts with Canva.

Payman Langroudi: To make the thing.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh my God. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: It’s like the design.

Patrycja Galonzka: Literally. [00:55:20]

Payman Langroudi: Kidding me.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. So before I remember just, you know, doing Canva manually [00:55:25] uploading all the documents, but now I just write the specific command [00:55:30] what exactly what I want on my presentation. There we go.

Payman Langroudi: My [00:55:35] team had many.

Patrycja Galonzka: Slides and you produce a few like examples. Then you can [00:55:40] basically take it from it, do a lot of like few tweaks, tailor it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. Yeah. But this [00:55:45] is more for the team training. So we have a lot of videos that [00:55:50] we did. So whoever starts the practice with the practice, they’ve got like an onboarding. [00:55:55] So they part of actually this videos to start and [00:56:00] you can create your avatar there. And I did mine. I played with it. It was [00:56:05] so cool. So I’ve uploaded my real photo, but I can put myself in [00:56:10] any scenario. I was even on the moon.

Payman Langroudi: Talking.

Patrycja Galonzka: Talking and looking literally like [00:56:15] you. So you do a team training. So it’s not only just the Presentation, [00:56:20] but the AI is on the presentation at the same time and [00:56:25] talks to you.

Payman Langroudi: Is it good?

Patrycja Galonzka: It’s very good.

Payman Langroudi: Like it looks like it’s you talking.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes, [00:56:30] yes. So it saves time. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: And when you’re writing like a LinkedIn post for your consulting [00:56:35] business, are you learning that as well?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes, yes. So I use AI. [00:56:40]

Payman Langroudi: You know what I found right? The best thing about it is that when before, if I was going to write a LinkedIn [00:56:45] article from 0 to 1, from a blank piece of paper to, [00:56:50] I don’t know, just six headings. Yeah, that piece would take so long [00:56:55] to go, oh, no, no, that’s wrong. And it would take so long to get started. Yeah. Whereas now [00:57:00] you just say it to the thing, to Gemini or whatever, and then it immediately produces [00:57:05] something and it’s giving you your start. Now you can just put that into LinkedIn if [00:57:10] you want, but that doesn’t make sense. But the fact that you’ve got your start means that just you’re just a [00:57:15] much better place, aren’t you? That’s, that’s the key thing about it.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes, but I think what [00:57:20] you’ve just said, it’s very important. You have to review it before it goes there. And [00:57:25] it’s very easy done. You don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And it makes mistakes. [00:57:30]

Patrycja Galonzka: And it’s not you. Yeah. Like wherever you look, you know, it’s AI. But [00:57:35] take your time. Do the points, spend time actually thinking of what you want [00:57:40] to write. And as you said, say it too. It’s so cool. I used to write, now I just [00:57:45] say it. Yeah. And you produce you the start as you’ve mentioned. Yeah. And saves you [00:57:50] time.

Payman Langroudi: I find kids are very like ahead of this game. Yeah. Because they’re not allowed to [00:57:55] use AI for their homework, which is.

Patrycja Galonzka: Amazing. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: No, but they figured it out, right? They figured out [00:58:00] how to use AI and then bring it back into humanised.ai. It’s called yeah, yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Kids [00:58:05] are clever.

Payman Langroudi: It’s good. I’d be disappointed if my kids weren’t understanding how to get around these rules. You know, like [00:58:10] it’s important they know, like, you know, they know how to hack stuff.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. [00:58:15]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And another thing I think is it should be 100. You can use [00:58:20] whatever the hell you like. Yeah, because those are the tools that are out there. Yeah. Okay, here’s the question. [00:58:25] The teacher sets a question. Go berserk man. Use Gemini. Use whatever you want. Yeah. [00:58:30] Use ChatGPT. Yeah. Why not? Like it should be available in exams. Yeah. [00:58:35] Because, you know, we’ve all got everyone has the tool now. It’s the same. It’s [00:58:40] the the race is flat, you know, like, and then it’s as you know, it’s what you [00:58:45] ask it. That’s the question. Right. The important thing, not, you know, the questions, [00:58:50] the important thing, not the answer now.

Patrycja Galonzka: Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Yeah. But yeah, so [00:58:55] we use our practice. Um, but we need to make sure that we [00:59:00] use it safely.

Payman Langroudi: In what sense.

Patrycja Galonzka: Data data patient safety as well. [00:59:05] Yeah. So, um, I reach out to actually a few compliances, uh, companies [00:59:10] asking, do you have any AI policy in place that I can actually [00:59:15] review it and have a look and implement to our practice. I had [00:59:20] zero and I’m like, what?

Payman Langroudi: Well, data policy [00:59:25] itself is.

Patrycja Galonzka: Not just data because, you know, as you just said, receptionist, [00:59:30] let’s say comes to the complaint. Yeah, they will just copy paste all the patient details. [00:59:35] You don’t know where this goes to be honest. Right? Yeah. [00:59:40] So I think yes. Use it if it reduced the repetitive [00:59:45] tasks. Absolutely. It improves the patient’s journey. Team [00:59:50] communication business data. I’m for it are using it [00:59:55] as well. And make sure you train your team. So we have like not a digital [01:00:00] sessions. But I’ve always been fascinated by about AI and computers. [01:00:05] So I sit down with them. We agree on what tools we use, how [01:00:10] we use them, and what do we not say or what do we not [01:00:15] do? And everyone seems to be fine and very confident with it. [01:00:20] But at the start, of course, oh my God, AI, I had a few people. I don’t want to [01:00:25] use it. It’s too much. I’d rather to write the email.

Payman Langroudi: People don’t like change. People [01:00:30] don’t like change.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh yes. Yes. That’s the mindset we’ve got.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve got a few people here who’ve really [01:00:35] taken it on and they’ve accelerated compared.

Patrycja Galonzka: That’s it. Embraced.

Payman Langroudi: Accelerated.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. [01:00:40]

Payman Langroudi: Um, I was having a meeting yesterday with one of our team [01:00:45] and a scientist that she had found a like a toothpaste expert. [01:00:50] Yeah. And I was just sitting watching her talking to this person. Yeah. Four [01:00:55] months ago, she didn’t know the first thing about toothpaste. Nothing. She knew nothing. Yeah. In the last four months, [01:01:00] she figured out some, like the shape of the rod of hydroxyapatite. And how do you test [01:01:05] that? And so on. And the scientist is giving her the answers. And it’s because she’s the type [01:01:10] who’s just like, anything happens. She’s on there going. Yeah, yeah. Although at [01:01:15] the same time there’s two things. One, when you ask her a question about [01:01:20] something you know a lot about, sometimes the answer’s not as good [01:01:25] as you think. Yeah. When you know a lot about something. But even that’s improved even [01:01:30] that’s improved a lot depends which model you use and which, you know, the paid model or whatever. Yeah. But [01:01:35] the second thing is this girl. Yeah, she’s got ChatGPT down as the ultimate master. [01:01:40] Like insomuch as you know, we’ll say, okay, what should we do regarding this toothpaste? [01:01:45] I’ll say do this. She’ll say, but ChatGPT says, do that. Yeah. And, and, and I’m like, [01:01:50] okay, ChatGPT can say whatever it likes. Yeah, yeah, I think we should do this still. Yeah. And, but, you [01:01:55] know, she’s over reliant.

Patrycja Galonzka: We need to protect that human side.

Speaker 7: But [01:02:00] do you think it’s possible? It’s possible.

Payman Langroudi: Here. Your daughter could marry a robot.

Patrycja Galonzka: I [01:02:05] hope. No.

Payman Langroudi: I know, but but you know what I mean. Like, I [01:02:10] mean, okay, let me, let me give let me give you this example. Yeah. My daughter is 16. She’s [01:02:15] saying she wants to be a dentist. Okay, great. I’m a dentist. My wife’s a dentist. [01:02:20] Great. It’d be nice. We own enlightened. It’d be nice if someone becomes a dentist. Yes, but [01:02:25] by the time she’s a dentist, will be eight years time. Yeah, in [01:02:30] eight years? Yeah. Surely a robot’s going to be doing that job. I mean, why not? [01:02:35] What’s stopping it? Eight years time. Like the brain. Yeah. What is the dentist? He’s [01:02:40] a brain. His eyes and his hands. Yeah. The brain’s already [01:02:45] better than ours. The brains, their eyes. Come on. Think like the best camera. [01:02:50] Whatever. X-ray vision, whatever. The eyes are going to be great. And then you’re telling me they can’t do [01:02:55] hands like they’ll do hands that come out of hands? They’ll be like.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah, no. [01:03:00]

Payman Langroudi: I can see that eight years time.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then people say, oh, dentistry. People are [01:03:05] scared. They want a human. Okay, put a human, put a person. Yeah. And I a [01:03:10] very, very kind person. Yeah. But the actual work, eight years [01:03:15] time, I just feel like it’s not going to be a dentist doing the job.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah, I can see that too. [01:03:20] I mean, there is pros and cons, like with everything, what we do. [01:03:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Do you know Waymo with Waymo, the way it works is one driver drives [01:03:30] 50 cars. Yeah. So the cars are driving themselves until [01:03:35] they hit a situation they don’t understand. Then they go back to the driver and the driver handles [01:03:40] that one. And then when that one’s done, one of the other 49, when they hit a situation, [01:03:45] it might end up being like that. You know, one dentist is doing 100 fillings. There’s robots [01:03:50] doing the filling. When they hit a situation, the dentist comes and takes over. Wow. Something like that. Maybe. [01:03:55]

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Look, I can see that for sure. [01:04:00] I’ve seen a lot of things on the internet and like the robots [01:04:05] jumping over, running cleaning, you know. I mean, it [01:04:10] does make sense. Like, we use a lot of robots even in the kitchen. Yeah. Oh, [01:04:15] like now at work as well in dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: So then with AI and robotics and all that, [01:04:20] the things where there’s elasticity of demand. So [01:04:25] there are some things that if you could make, if you could increase the supply, [01:04:30] it’ll increase the demand. So let me give you an example. Like my brother’s a radiologist in [01:04:35] hospital.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: So they would like to every time you hit your head give you an MRI. [01:04:40] Yeah. But the cost wise, it’s not every time if you hit your head and [01:04:45] you feel a bit dizzy and whatever concussion, then they’ll give you an MRI. But [01:04:50] they would like to do more of those. Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Doctors generally would like to take [01:04:55] more investigations.

Patrycja Galonzka: Of course. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So as AI and robotics, everything gets [01:05:00] more more investigations can be done. So the supply demand side of that [01:05:05] will go up. Yeah, but there are other jobs, like, let’s say, the person who handles complaints [01:05:10] in your practice. Yes. Yeah. You probably. Um.

Patrycja Galonzka: And my practice operationally, [01:05:15] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The number of complaints won’t go up. Yeah. [01:05:20] Handling of the complaints will be done by a robot. Mhm. Yeah. But the number won’t [01:05:25] go up, so that job is in danger. Yeah, yeah. [01:05:30] Whereas the other job where the number will go up. Yes. As cost goes down, that job won’t [01:05:35] be so in danger. Mhm. Yeah. But it’s a worry. It’s a worry insomuch as if 30% [01:05:40] of the population lose their jobs, which is what they’re saying might happen. Who’s going to buy everything? [01:05:45] You know, like. Yes, yes. What’s going to happen to that 30%? [01:05:50]

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. It’s a it’s a lot of unknown. Yes. For sure. [01:05:55] Like we can predict, we can think what is going to happen.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the first time, though, that [01:06:00] you can’t really tell what’s going to be like in 3 or 4 years time.

Patrycja Galonzka: Absolutely, yes. [01:06:05]

Payman Langroudi: Because throughout history, even when the internet came out, you could kind of say, yeah, three [01:06:10] years time, you could kind of see what’s around the corner. Mhm. But now it’s really tough to [01:06:15] say, you know, it’s like it is.

Patrycja Galonzka: And it can be very overwhelming. Yeah, it can be very overwhelming. [01:06:20] And especially like for us in dentistry, our [01:06:25] AI can do X-rays. Ai can now answer your phone. Ai can do your [01:06:30] data and then ask us and managers as well, or leaders, we [01:06:35] need to make sure that we actually understand it, and then we can use it. [01:06:40] And the team feels confident as well to use it because it’s so easy to just get overwhelmed [01:06:45] and then you end up, I’m not doing anything. Yeah. And then you still [01:06:50] in that manual process, which is wrong.

Payman Langroudi: Because.

Patrycja Galonzka: You should [01:06:55] embrace it. I’m not saying use it all the time for everything. Take [01:07:00] step by step. And I still have a lot to learn.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:07:05] very early days yet.

Patrycja Galonzka: But I’m very excited for sure. Very excited [01:07:10] if that can help us. People behind the scenes and our patients. [01:07:15] I’m for it.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about business models that [01:07:20] you’ve seen that are different. When [01:07:25] I say business models, it could be patient journeys that are different. So [01:07:30] we’re doing this. I don’t know if you’ve seen it. We’re doing this event at Ministry of Sound.

Patrycja Galonzka: I’m coming. Are you? Yes. I’m very [01:07:35] excited. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So one of the features of it is we’re going to have um, different patient [01:07:40] journeys that are working well, like, like Ted style, like 20 minute presentations. [01:07:45] Yeah. But there’s different patient journeys. So one, one, one person, for instance, within [01:07:50] one, two years, two years, they’ve got each [01:07:55] room producing half £1 million within two years. And from a squat. [01:08:00]

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: And their whole thing is about filtering patients, saying no [01:08:05] to patients. And only the ones that that are correct end up sitting [01:08:10] in front of you. And then once they’re sitting in front of you, they’re going to go ahead with comprehensive treatment [01:08:15] because they filtered them like one thing they don’t do is treat toothache pain. [01:08:20] They when someone calls up and says, I’m in pain, they go, sorry, that’s not us. And [01:08:25] they refer them out to a different practice. Yeah. Because they’re saying that patient hasn’t [01:08:30] been through our filter.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That’s so interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So that’s a different [01:08:35] patient journey.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or there’s another one in Scotland. Amber. She’s got she’s [01:08:40] running privately, fully privately. But therapist led. Yeah. [01:08:45] So most of the work is being done by therapists. Mhm. And she’s [01:08:50] training her therapists up to like, MSC level. Wow. In, like, minimally invasive dentistry. [01:08:55] Um, there are specialists. There are dentists as well. Yes, yes. But the therapists charge exactly [01:09:00] the same price as the dentists for the for the restorations. Because why not if they’re trained to [01:09:05] the same standard. And so she’s done a killing. She’s doing really, really well. Or [01:09:10] there’s one guy he’s I don’t know, he’s bought his practice for £240,000. [01:09:15] Four years later he sold it for 3.2 million by. So then he’s opened [01:09:20] it seven days a week.

Patrycja Galonzka: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Each associate is allowed to [01:09:25] go down one particular route. So if one of them is endo, the [01:09:30] next one can’t be endo. The next one is ortho.

Patrycja Galonzka: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: The next one’s [01:09:35] uh, full mouth, the next one’s surgery. Then he makes those associates go to, um, [01:09:40] masters level that they have to go study part time and just get really, really [01:09:45] good at that job. Um, then he gets the youngest person in the team, like a 27 [01:09:50] year old dentist and calls that person the clinical director. Yeah. [01:09:55] And the idea behind that is their closest to university, and they haven’t been polluted [01:10:00] by the financial side. Yeah, the business side. So they set the [01:10:05] sort of the educational empowerment.

Patrycja Galonzka: Hey. Yes, that’s definitely empowerment. [01:10:10]

Payman Langroudi: And it’s open seven days a week because everyone in the team works one weekend in [01:10:15] five. Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: So is a rotation. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And he pays the full days [01:10:20] salary on the Saturday and Sunday. But on Saturday it’s a short day. On Sunday it’s an even shorter day. [01:10:25] Yeah. Yeah. And even he does it. He does the weekends as well. So it’s open seven days a week. And then [01:10:30] he reinvests quite a lot, you know, to make all this happen you have to reinvest.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. Of course. [01:10:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So these are these are alternative journeys right. Alternative ideas industry. Have you got [01:10:40] any.

Patrycja Galonzka: Hmm.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got one. Why do you think about it? What [01:10:45] about your lifetime guarantee on dentistry, [01:10:50] but charge double the price? Yes. [01:10:55] How much do you guys charge for a crown?

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh, if you ask me the cost, I’m not really in [01:11:00] that.

Payman Langroudi: It’ll be. It’ll be like, let’s say it’ll be like.

Patrycja Galonzka: I think it’s about.

Payman Langroudi: £900 or something.

Patrycja Galonzka: No less than that. [01:11:05] £700 possibly. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: £500. Yeah. You have a new crown. Yeah. It’s [01:11:10] £1,000 crown. Double the price. Yeah. But this crown, it’s got a lifetime guarantee on it. Yeah. [01:11:15] Now you sell it to the patient based on lifetime guarantee, right? That’s [01:11:20] that’s why it’s this price.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes, yes.

Payman Langroudi: Because there’s a lifetime guarantee on it. You’re going to have to do a [01:11:25] great job because you don’t want it to fail.

Patrycja Galonzka: Of course.

Payman Langroudi: Lifetime guarantee.

Patrycja Galonzka: So you don’t need to see that patient [01:11:30] again to.

Payman Langroudi: Replace.

Patrycja Galonzka: It. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Once you’ve done a lot of these, some of them will fail. Like, [01:11:35] I don’t know, 18 years time if you’re still there.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Something’s going to fail. The guy already [01:11:40] paid twice for it. Yeah. All of them paid twice to start with. So you can replace [01:11:45] all of them. Not you’re not going to replace all of them.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But whatever you replace, you should do with your [01:11:50] big smile on your face because you paid twice for it anyway. You paid double to start with. Yeah. [01:11:55] You say to patients, our USP is we’re the only practice [01:12:00] in the town and the country. Wherever you want that there’s a lifetime guarantee. Why do we do it? Because [01:12:05] we do it right the first time. Yeah. We want our patients to be happy. Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: That’s so great.

Payman Langroudi: There [01:12:10] is a problem, though, when you come to sell the practice. Yeah. There’s all these lifetime guarantees.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh yes. [01:12:15]

Payman Langroudi: But but you tell the buyer. Yeah. Okay. This is what you’re buying on [01:12:20] on paper based on my EBITDA. The practice is worth 3.2 million. But because of [01:12:25] these lifetime guarantees I’ll settle for three. 3 million. Like you know what I mean? You work it out. [01:12:30] So you buy an insurance product or something. Yeah, but this is what I’m asking. Variable patient [01:12:35] journeys or business models? What comes to mind when I say that? Have you thought of any. You seen any. [01:12:40]

Patrycja Galonzka: Mm. That’s a tricky question because [01:12:45] you already took the patient’s journey, which I think is so important. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But you know your [01:12:50] patient journey like you say, empowerment. Yeah. Like, did you tell your staff we want [01:12:55] the patient to be super happy, do whatever it takes to do that? Is that what you mean by empowerment or does everyone get [01:13:00] offered a flat white or what is it? You know, like.

Patrycja Galonzka: No, I think [01:13:05] what the value is for our patient’s journey is to yes, [01:13:10] of course, to help them, to make sure they feel satisfied with [01:13:15] their service, with the service we offer. But I think it’s more for us that it [01:13:20] proves that we actually deliver that exceptional patient’s journey. So [01:13:25] they refer other people. So, you know, like the marketing, yes, you can [01:13:30] have a lot of leads coming through. But in our practice, the most people actually coming [01:13:35] from referral.

Payman Langroudi: Word of.

Patrycja Galonzka: Mouth. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a healthy sign.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah, exactly. [01:13:40] So yes, we have a marketing in place, but there’s a lot of people oh, my best friend [01:13:45] or actually my hairdresser as well. And they speak to their [01:13:50] families, their friends. And I think this is really remarkable.

Payman Langroudi: They tell each other [01:13:55] about you is what their lovely. Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: So they they say that the team [01:14:00] is really nice, friendly, professional. They feel [01:14:05] heard. And also it’s clear. So when they come [01:14:10] in it’s clear what we can do. What can we not do. And when you said about [01:14:15] selection as well we we do that too. So we have a two stage [01:14:20] process of our consultation. For that reason we try like just. Oh yeah. [01:14:25] Console. Yeah. Let’s go ahead.

Payman Langroudi: To what is it a TCO that season first.

Patrycja Galonzka: We’ve got no it’s a [01:14:30] clinical LED. Yeah. Okay. Clinical led supported by the TCO. Okay. So the [01:14:35] first conversation when they come into the practice is more about finding their [01:14:40] goals, what they want to achieve. And then what can we do. And [01:14:45] that’s the proposal. Then they go to the TCO. We use time again some [01:14:50] AI videos. Um, we then do self checks for finance [01:14:55] if needed. Then we have a picture of the person that we’ve just [01:15:00] seen.

Payman Langroudi: What it’s up to.

Patrycja Galonzka: Exactly. Then we follow up and if they’re coming back [01:15:05] for the second appointment, they pretty much know that they already want to go ahead when [01:15:10] they usually pay deposit on the day, and then we book the next appointment when it’s actually [01:15:15] treatment, but we take our time.

Payman Langroudi: And do you offer a free consult [01:15:20] from the marketing?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. So we pay. They have to pay £25 deposit. [01:15:25] Yes, but it’s fully refundable or it goes goes towards their treatment. Yes. Yes. [01:15:30]

Payman Langroudi: And then the follow up process. How do you know what, who has to follow up? What is there some sort of CRM. [01:15:35]

Patrycja Galonzka: We have a CRM and we use um we had lead flow. [01:15:40] Yes, yes. Um, and then we use our TCO. So we [01:15:45] have a spreadsheet as well, which is great to have like a proper system in AI, but [01:15:50] at the moment we use a spreadsheets. So we have a different steps for follow up when, [01:15:55] how often, how do we do it? But we usually agree with the patients on the [01:16:00] day and the time that we want to call them.

Payman Langroudi: So when you see them the first time.

Patrycja Galonzka: So [01:16:05] we don’t just let them go.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a good time to call.

Patrycja Galonzka: Exactly. We agree. So they actually adding into their calendar. [01:16:10] So they know that we’re going to call or we’re going to contact. [01:16:15]

Payman Langroudi: And you know that idea that some people have decided already, some people take six months [01:16:20] to decide, oh yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Or 18 months, 18 months. Yeah, I think that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Still being clear on that. Yeah. [01:16:25] Like I remember when I was a dentist, that just wasn’t an idea. Yeah. So we [01:16:30] do the examination. The guy said, I’ll think about it. Yeah. They do two follow ups. That’d be the end of [01:16:35] that. Gone. Finished. Yeah. And but sometimes people do take time, you know, like it’s [01:16:40] a thing.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. Because it comes to the spending the money. Yeah. Yeah. [01:16:45] So if they’re coming into the practice, they already, like you said, yes. They feel anxious, [01:16:50] a little bit unsure what’s going to happen. But yeah, how much you’re going to spend. [01:16:55] And of course we talk about they start from like a few thousands. [01:17:00]

Payman Langroudi: And are you, how autonomous are you as far as recruitment? Like, [01:17:05] are you the person hiring all the nurses? And yes, without the principle involved? [01:17:10]

Patrycja Galonzka: No, of course he is involved.

Payman Langroudi: He gets involved in the hiring of all the nurses as well.

Patrycja Galonzka: So [01:17:15] we have a process for it. So same again filter. I would say same [01:17:20] thing for hiring. So hire slow fire fast. [01:17:25] So we take time. Um, and then we’ve learned as well from [01:17:30] the day when we’ve opened the practice to now going back to the values, you [01:17:35] won’t have a people who have the similar values. Yeah. So they see this profession [01:17:40] as a long term goal.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: And they feel [01:17:45] proud of working in healthcare. Yeah. Not just oh you know, [01:17:50] I can have. Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re good at it.

Patrycja Galonzka: I’m [01:17:55] getting there. I want to be better. Same again. I want to be better version [01:18:00] of myself every single day.

Payman Langroudi: I think that recruitment is such a funny thing because you can of course, you [01:18:05] can get better at it. Yeah. But sometimes you have the perfect process and [01:18:10] the person starts and it’s just not the person you thought they were, you know?

Patrycja Galonzka: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, [01:18:15] there’s even ways around that, right? Come in for trial weeks or whatever. Do you do that trial days and weeks?

Patrycja Galonzka: Not [01:18:20] the weeks. No. We do like interview zoom, some questionnaire, [01:18:25] observation and trial. Yeah. For a few hours. But you’re right. [01:18:30] You never really truly know.

Payman Langroudi: Until you know.

Patrycja Galonzka: Until you know. Yes. [01:18:35]

Payman Langroudi: And have you got, like, favourite questions? Questions that like I, I like the I [01:18:40] mean, it’s a classic. What are what you’re bad at kind of question. Yeah. Your weakness question.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh, [01:18:45] yeah. Same.

Payman Langroudi: And a lot of people don’t want to say it.

Patrycja Galonzka: Or they.

Payman Langroudi: Or they don’t, I.

Patrycja Galonzka: Don’t know. [01:18:50] Yes.

Payman Langroudi: I yeah. And I find that it’s such a turn off for me when someone says that [01:18:55] because it’s like, what? You don’t know yourself.

Patrycja Galonzka: Like I would say it’s a little bit concerning [01:19:00] as well. Because if you don’t know your weaknesses.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t know yourself, right? [01:19:05]

Patrycja Galonzka: No. And all you do is like, oh, it’s the ego thing. I know everything, I [01:19:10] know best. I can do anything really.

Payman Langroudi: And then in [01:19:15] appraisal, do you get them to give themselves a score on stuff [01:19:20] or.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh yes. Well, the thing is same with appraisals in so many practices. [01:19:25] Only happens once a year. Yeah, but I’m not against [01:19:30] doing it. But I have a 1 to 1 with my team every so often. [01:19:35]

Payman Langroudi: How often?

Patrycja Galonzka: I would say probably every two weeks. Ooh, [01:19:40] yes. Awesome times. More like together. Because your goals [01:19:45] can change. And as you said with your company, you’ve got one idea for one week. [01:19:50] The next week you have another idea. Same in our practice.

Payman Langroudi: But is it, is it like, [01:19:55] is it, um, a structured thing or you’re literally sitting, having a cup of tea with someone? Is it. [01:20:00] Are there things you’re asking them or are you trying to figure them out? What are you trying to do? Give me some sense [01:20:05] of it.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. So it’s a different frameworks you follow when it comes just purely to the job [01:20:10] role. Yes. We have to follow the procedures, make sure we fully compliant. Yeah. But [01:20:15] touch base on actually are you happy with what you’re doing. Is [01:20:20] that make you satisfied? You know, I don’t want to have people coming into [01:20:25] work being miserable and then spread that miserable vibe around. [01:20:30] And sometimes it happens, you know, in your life, you might have a bad day. [01:20:35] Yeah. Then now I’ve opened in my book. Um, there’s two slots per week. [01:20:40] Any team member can just book time with me to speak to me. So a part of [01:20:45] like the 1 to 1 appraisals, they can just book their appointment there. [01:20:50] And it’s usually like around lunch time. Two different slots. So they can literally [01:20:55] just book their appointment, let’s say sit down with me and then just talk to me because [01:21:00] it’s a wellbeing. It’s very, very important as well. So yes, you can have your goals, [01:21:05] PDP in place, hit the numbers. But actually, is [01:21:10] that all making you feeling happy?

Payman Langroudi: That could be on paper all look great, but you’re [01:21:15] actually not a happy person.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes, definitely.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a very good point. It’s a very good point.

Patrycja Galonzka: Thank you. [01:21:20]

Payman Langroudi: We like to talk about mistakes on this pod. I mean with the dentists it would be a clinical mistake [01:21:25] because dentists don’t like talking about their clinical mistakes. And so we never learn from [01:21:30] each other’s mistakes. Mhm. What comes to mind if I ask you, what’s been some of your biggest mistakes [01:21:35] in this career that you’ve carved.

Patrycja Galonzka: I [01:21:40] think I’ve got two that comes into my mind. So [01:21:45] the first one, I was definitely avoiding [01:21:50] difficult conversations with the people I was responsible for. Mhm. Yes. [01:21:55] I was the new person in the country. I think that was also a [01:22:00] barrier for me. But you didn’t want to be in that difficult conversation [01:22:05] because you were afraid that people will not like you anymore. Yeah. [01:22:10]

Payman Langroudi: Do you think do you think there’s, like, a, a line that you have to draw that you can’t get too [01:22:15] close to your people?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So have you approached that point [01:22:20] and had to like, yeah. Pull back.

Patrycja Galonzka: I had to learn because before going [01:22:25] back to the difficult conversation, like leadership is not to be [01:22:30] nice that people like you. I think it’s the kindness. [01:22:35] The kindness is care. So if you’re kind, you [01:22:40] will be honest. You will exactly say, oh, look, um, I think [01:22:45] I’ve observed or the data shows me. I think we should do [01:22:50] a, b, c how can I get you there? You need to be very fair, very [01:22:55] honest and kind. And people feel okay [01:23:00] with it because you’re not being horrible, you’re not [01:23:05] being nagging and you are there for them to show that. [01:23:10] Yes, I understand we can make mistakes, but I’m here with you on this journey.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:23:15] tactics for that.

Patrycja Galonzka: Tactics for that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like for [01:23:20] instance, do you do things like let’s, let’s say someone’s done something wrong and [01:23:25] you want to put that thing right or whatever. Do you start with what they did right first [01:23:30] and then go Going to.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. So I think there is a structure [01:23:35] how to handle these conversations.

Payman Langroudi: Second nature for you now. You just don’t even realise you’re doing it. Yeah. [01:23:40]

Patrycja Galonzka: You have to start with the good parts first. Because if you start with only the bad, the, [01:23:45] the vibe and the energy in the room is already.

Payman Langroudi: The [01:23:50] person doesn’t feel seen either. Right? They feel like you’ve already seen.

Patrycja Galonzka: It already, like, oh, what I’m [01:23:55] doing here? Or they’re just hoping for this conversation to end. But when [01:24:00] you start with the goods, then this is amazing. Great. You’ve done A, [01:24:05] B, C what do you think? How do you feel about it? Oh yeah. Great. I didn’t [01:24:10] think I could do it. Thank you so much. Okay, now let’s move to.

Payman Langroudi: X, [01:24:15] Y, and z. Yes.

Patrycja Galonzka: So I’m not saying you’re doing this wrong. However, [01:24:20] I always say I believe you could do it better. What can I do for [01:24:25] you? Oh, actually, yes, you’re right. I didn’t realise that. Would you [01:24:30] mind to help me? Yeah. Of course. And then we put the plan in place. Then [01:24:35] another 1 to 1. We sit down. We had some time to review [01:24:40] it. To try it. Yeah. Actually, I’m fine now. Amazing. We [01:24:45] can continue.

Payman Langroudi: What was the other mistake?

Patrycja Galonzka: Well, [01:24:50] I think the second mistake [01:24:55] it was. Yes. It’s something with the culture as well. So [01:25:00] going to the difficult conversations I think I [01:25:05] haven’t addressed the anti values on time. And you [01:25:10] and I feel guilty for it to be honest because you pass through them. [01:25:15] You’ve seen them. You know they were there but you’ve never addressed [01:25:20] them. Yeah. So that becomes standard. Now that becomes your operational [01:25:25] rhythm within the practice and it’s [01:25:30] too late to fix it because people think, oh, she didn’t say anything.

Payman Langroudi: So get specific though. [01:25:35]

Patrycja Galonzka: Specific.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What was the anti anti values. [01:25:40]

Patrycja Galonzka: Blaming people. Blaming other people for their [01:25:45] mistakes or resistance to change and [01:25:50] keep complaining. I don’t want to do this. I, I don’t [01:25:55] want to use this AI. Why do we want to use it. Why do I have to use it. [01:26:00] Or blaming. That’s not my fault. She said this. It’s [01:26:05] really common, but I think you have to address them. You need to speak about them being [01:26:10] transparent. And I’m not saying the antivirus only comes from your staffy or managing [01:26:15] it comes from us as well. If I say I will [01:26:20] do this for you, but I will never follow up, I [01:26:25] will never going to do it. How are you going to feel?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So next time [01:26:30] you say something like that, no one’s going to believe you.

Patrycja Galonzka: Exactly. All I’d say I know all the answers.

Payman Langroudi: How [01:26:35] do you keep organised? I mean, like, you’ve got all these conversations going on with these people. I’m going to check back [01:26:40] with you to make sure success looks like this. How is it like just a calendar? Like, how do you [01:26:45] know what to do when you might just be super, super organised person to be [01:26:50] pulling this off?

Patrycja Galonzka: Same again. That’s also a mistake and a lesson I had to learn. It’s [01:26:55] it’s the time management really, because you can get busy but [01:27:00] not effective really so easily. You busy busy in [01:27:05] that firefighting mode, one job, next job and that workload [01:27:10] never ends and you feel like you never finished. Time management [01:27:15] is the key and something I really encouraging my team to do as well. So I mean my [01:27:20] time.

Payman Langroudi: Priority prioritising the right thing.

Patrycja Galonzka: It’s like a traffic light red orange, [01:27:25] green. But I blocked my actual diary for specific tasks. So I [01:27:30] do like to do this on Sunday evenings. Some people do Fridays to switch [01:27:35] off for the weekend, but I actually do it on Sunday evening. I review the book. [01:27:40] I usually read the reports from my staff, what happened from the week before [01:27:45] so I can see what worked, what we need to work on it or improve, [01:27:50] and then I schedule my week accordingly, so I.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:27:55] do you look forward to Monday morning?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah, because I’m organised.

Payman Langroudi: How does that take you on a Sunday night? [01:28:00]

Patrycja Galonzka: Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: How long does it take?

Patrycja Galonzka: How long? I think because I do it every [01:28:05] week now. And we have a systems in place like the handover from my staff. [01:28:10] So I see what happened in each day. And I just go through it probably [01:28:15] like one hour, one hour and a half. Then I block my time. Few [01:28:20] specific key tasks.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a massive discipline thing in itself. Yeah. Like I’m sure like if [01:28:25] you go out there in public and ask 100 people in the street, do you do 1.5 hours [01:28:30] of work on a Sunday night for your job? I’m sure there’d be plenty of people completely like, [01:28:35] you know, disgusted by that idea. Yeah. On Sunday evenings. That’s my time, right? [01:28:40]

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. I heard a lot of feedbacks like that. That’s so sad. What [01:28:45] are you doing? This. But I just love my look.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got a thing. I’ve [01:28:50] got a thing. Yeah. A lot of our team are remote. Yeah. Like. Oh, yes. Your friend Lee is [01:28:55] in South Africa.

Patrycja Galonzka: I know.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and I’ve got a little bugbear. Yeah. [01:29:00] That is if I send a WhatsApp at nine at night. Yeah. [01:29:05] I don’t mind if you’re, if you’re playing tennis or you’re with your kids or whatever and you don’t [01:29:10] answer. No problem. Yeah, sure. But if you see it. Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Answer [01:29:15] it. Yeah. Because they’re remote anyway. [01:29:20] I mean, my most of my team come in one day a week or one day a fortnight. Sometimes [01:29:25] there’s nothing I can do about whether or not they’re 100% working for [01:29:30] me at that time. And, you know, you can you can have the person’s body in the building, but [01:29:35] it’s really their brain and their heart that you really want, right?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But but I’m saying you’re [01:29:40] remote. Yeah. You can get up and go to the shop at any moment, and I will. I’ll never know anything [01:29:45] about it. Yeah. But if I send you a WhatsApp at 8 p.m. and your work hours, say [01:29:50] 530, and you see the WhatsApp? Yeah, if you don’t see it. Okay. Of course, [01:29:55] you see the WhatsApp. Don’t get on this sort of high horse. I’m not working right now. Yeah, [01:30:00] it’s a bugbear, man. So but it annoys people when I bring it up. Like if I say that I [01:30:05] kind of. You’re not allowed to say that.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah, I get your point as [01:30:10] well as the other side too. But I think if you. Yeah, [01:30:15] working on things together in your team.

Payman Langroudi: Then in my mind works best at night [01:30:20] time. And by the way, there’s some people. Answer me at midnight.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. Okay. [01:30:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. There are. There’s some people like that too. Yeah, I love that. But there’s some people. 532 [01:30:30] no answer.

Patrycja Galonzka: 9 to 5 mine.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. They’re [01:30:35] out. Yeah. You can’t complain about it because that’s they’re being paid from 9 to 5 or whatever. [01:30:40] Yeah. But I’m saying because of this extra thing about remote, like you guys don’t get it [01:30:45] in a dental practice. You have to turn up. You have to, you know, see people, you have to it’s [01:30:50] a, it’s a reason why it’s so hard to get recruitment now because there’s so many people [01:30:55] working from home. Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. They want flexibility. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:31:00] interesting. We’re coming to the end of our time. I’m going to hit you with some quick fire [01:31:05] kind of questions.

Patrycja Galonzka: All right.

Payman Langroudi: But before I do, what’s your amazing outcome [01:31:10] for if we were sitting again in five years time, what would [01:31:15] you like to have achieved?

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh, I love that question. Is a very, [01:31:20] very deep question. And same again, you have to.

Payman Langroudi: Sit ambitious as you. [01:31:25]

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. So you have to really pose to know [01:31:30] where you want to go. And I would love to have my business [01:31:35] running with my Caesar framework.

Payman Langroudi: Your consulting business.

Patrycja Galonzka: Absolutely. Helping people, [01:31:40] raising the standards.

Payman Langroudi: Making the difference. You make time for that with your existing [01:31:45] job. What’s the story? What if you get a new customer?

Patrycja Galonzka: I’ve reduced my hours at Aspire Smiles, [01:31:50] hence why we are so on systems so I can still keep an eye on what’s happening. [01:31:55] The handover has been in the morning. Huddle has been just a game changer. [01:32:00]

Payman Langroudi: Are you doing morning huddle every day?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. Handovers weekly.

Payman Langroudi: What did you go through in the morning [01:32:05] huddle? Like who’s coming in? Lab work. Who do we need to get reviews from this sort of thing.

Patrycja Galonzka: It’s a mixture. [01:32:10] So at the moment, because I’m starting a little bit later, I’m dropping my daughter to school. [01:32:15] Same again. It comes to empowerment. My practice operationally does them. [01:32:20] She was very nervous at the start. A few rounds. The team had a [01:32:25] good feedback from it and she was like, Patricia, I feel like I’m in control now. Thank you. So [01:32:30] we go through a different different scenarios. What we did good yesterday, what we could [01:32:35] improve, what we have a plan for today. The main goals let’s [01:32:40] say patience. Are there any patients coming that we can either get them [01:32:45] on testimonials, social media content or if they have a birthday, go [01:32:50] get them a chocolates. So it’s a mixture of a different it’s not just a boring, like [01:32:55] you said, lab work. Yes, it’s important, but that should be already part of your system [01:33:00] checked before. Really, this should be more about qualitative. Yes, [01:33:05] definitely. Yeah. So in five years, five years, I [01:33:10] would like to have my business running fully.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Seeing [01:33:15] my results coming through from people saying, yes, Patricia, [01:33:20] we’ve reduced the chaos in the practice. There is not so much firefighting. [01:33:25] Our people enjoy what they do. The burnout goes low. And [01:33:30] I think dentistry, yes, is my first step. But I see this more as a health [01:33:35] care, you see.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, I know a couple of, uh, who are [01:33:40] they? One, one was a practice manager and one was a hygienist [01:33:45] who owned their own practices now.

Patrycja Galonzka: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And some of the things they’ve [01:33:50] done that already and some of enlightened biggest users. Yeah. But, you know, [01:33:55] the insight they’ve got is they’ll, they’ll put their associates on a course. Yes. [01:34:00] And they’ll make sure the following week this treatment that that course. [01:34:05]

Patrycja Galonzka: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Addresses. Yeah. Like we do courses or we do composite course. [01:34:10] There’s a bunch of people come on the course and don’t do a single composite bonding case until [01:34:15] six months later when they’ve forgotten everything. Yeah, but she because she’s been in [01:34:20] a practice, you know, she’s done your kind of working through a practice, understand [01:34:25] she pays for the course for the associate herself. And the following week when the [01:34:30] associate comes in this composite bonding cases and then and then suddenly that person becomes [01:34:35] a composite bonding dentist. You know, like it works. It works.

Patrycja Galonzka: It’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Practice. You’ve thought about owning [01:34:40] a practice?

Patrycja Galonzka: Not necessarily. I think a few years ago, yes. [01:34:45] And I had a conversation with one dentist. It [01:34:50] was just before the pandemic. And I’m wondering. Yes, but I’m glad I [01:34:55] didn’t, to be honest, because what I’m doing now, it gives me more flexibility [01:35:00] to be around other people. So I think this is my mission. [01:35:05] I don’t want to be stuck in one place. I want to be exposed. I want to share [01:35:10] what I went through my lessons, my experiences. And this [01:35:15] is something that is still happening. All the patterns, they are still happening. So [01:35:20] yeah. No no no.

Payman Langroudi: Quick fire, [01:35:25] quick fire. What’s your favourite business resource or book or podcast [01:35:30] or whatever you said. Simon Sinek.

Patrycja Galonzka: Simon Sinek. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Because [01:35:35] anyone else.

Patrycja Galonzka: He’s about the leadership and Chris Barro. Oh yeah. I love Chris [01:35:40] Barro concept. Um, same KPI’s leadership. Your [01:35:45] sustainable growth comes from leadership and systems. And he’s really forward thinking about AI. [01:35:50] And that connects with me a lot. Um, with regards to the books. [01:35:55] Glennis Bridges she was my mentor. So I’ve done my qualifications [01:36:00] with her. Um, oh yeah. She’s very close to my heart. She was [01:36:05] with me throughout all my journey. Believe with me even when I doubted myself, [01:36:10] to be honest. But yeah, I do love to listen to podcasts, [01:36:15] not just in dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Which one?

Patrycja Galonzka: Because it’s a business related. So from [01:36:20] Simon Sinek, Steven Bartlett, different type of podcasts just [01:36:25] then every time something new and bringing into the practice like Mel Robbins, [01:36:30] I think she’s my top one because she’s speaking a lot about mindset. [01:36:35] Yeah. So the settings in our brain and the way she explained [01:36:40] settings in your brain, like in your computer, you can change them.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the name [01:36:45] of the pod? Is it just her name?

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh yeah. It was just one of the podcasts with, oh.

Payman Langroudi: She was a [01:36:50] guest somewhere.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. Yeah. So oh, the weather, the weather you bring into the company. [01:36:55] Same again. It’s from the Mel Robbins. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Anything else come to mind [01:37:00] like resource wise?

Patrycja Galonzka: Um [01:37:05] not particularly. I think I’m like trying to explore lots of different [01:37:10] resources. To be honest.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your what’s your favourite treatment in dentistry? [01:37:15]

Patrycja Galonzka: Invisalign. Is it because I had it done?

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Patrycja Galonzka: And enlightened combined [01:37:20] it together. Yeah, but Invisalign, it was the one for me, [01:37:25] for sure. It was really interesting to understand the way [01:37:30] it’s done from the patient perspective. So yeah, I enjoyed it. It took [01:37:35] some time. I think it it taught me to be patient as well, to be honest and [01:37:40] discipline. You have to change it every week.

Payman Langroudi: And so so you’re so disciplined, right? You’re [01:37:45] so hardworking. What’s your guilty pleasure?

Patrycja Galonzka: Hmm. [01:37:50] I don’t know if it’s guilty pleasure, but I love my hot pot yoga. [01:37:55]

Payman Langroudi: Like, that’s not guilty pleasure. Well, I’m [01:38:00] thinking more KFC, man. Oh, guilty. Guilty pleasure. Guilty [01:38:05] pleasure. Some some crap thing you watch on TV or something.

Patrycja Galonzka: The thing [01:38:10] is, I don’t really watch TV that much. I think my.

Payman Langroudi: Guilt is flicking through TikTok.

Patrycja Galonzka: No, [01:38:15] I think I’m quite bad with Friday evening. I ordered some Indian food [01:38:20] every week on Friday.

Payman Langroudi: That’s all right.

Patrycja Galonzka: I think that’s my guilty [01:38:25] pleasure. And yeah, something. I just have to have it once a week.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:38:30] been a massive pleasure having you. Really has so much. I’ve learned so much from you the way you, [01:38:35] your mindset, your positivity, your positivity. Really, really excellent. [01:38:40] Thank you so much for coming all this way.

Patrycja Galonzka: Thank you for having me. Really, it was great.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. Hope you enjoyed [01:38:45] today’s episode. Make sure you tune in for future episodes. Hit subscribe [01:38:50] in iTunes or Google Play or whatever platform it is. And you know, we really, really [01:38:55] appreciate it. If you would, um, give.

Payman Langroudi: Us a six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. That’s [01:39:00] what I always leave my Uber driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks [01:39:05] a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast has been brought to you by Mini Smile Makeover. Mini Smile Makeover is a two day anterior [00:00:05] composite course led by the extraordinary talented doctor Dipesh Palmer. Two [00:00:10] days of full on, hands on composite training purely focussed [00:00:15] on anterior work, composite veneers, polishing, finishing, shade matching. You also [00:00:20] get a free enlightened kit. Plus we have a great time and a party in the middle. Find out the [00:00:25] dates mini Smile makeover.com. Now let’s get back to the podcast.

VOICE: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. [00:00:35] The podcast where you get to go one on one [00:00:40] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:50] gives me great pleasure to welcome again to the Dental [00:00:55] leaders podcast, acne. And I go back quite a long way. Um, actually, [00:01:00] it’s become internationally known as, uh, minimally invasive [00:01:05] direct composite expert. Um, goes around the world [00:01:10] lecturing and actually lecturing tomorrow in London. Um, so we’ve managed to grab you now, [00:01:15] as well as being the clinical lead at the Baltic Academy of Aesthetic Dentistry. [00:01:20] Agni is our distributor for enlighten in Lithuania. Um, [00:01:25] a bio emulation accredited. Is that the way you say it?

Agne Malisauskiene: A member [00:01:30] of bio member.

Payman Langroudi: Of bio emulation has been on ripe global, really creating a fantastic [00:01:35] career and really putting Vilnius on the dental map [00:01:40] for, you know, world experts now land in Vilnius, um, [00:01:45] through Agni. And it’s a beautiful place that I came to with the beautiful sunshine. [00:01:50] Lovely to have you.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, thank you for having me. First and foremost, it’s super [00:01:55] exciting. Um, I think we talked about this a couple years ago. Yeah. And [00:02:00] and, you know, it takes time, right. Um, it’s lovely to be here. And yes, [00:02:05] we’ve met years.

Payman Langroudi: When was it, when was the first time you met?

Agne Malisauskiene: Years ago. Um. [00:02:10]

Payman Langroudi: I feel like IDs.

Agne Malisauskiene: It was IDs. And JJ was [00:02:15] my older son. He was, um, a year and a half. So [00:02:20] that means it’s exactly seven years ago. This is when we met. [00:02:25]

Payman Langroudi: Is he eight and a half?

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah, he’s eight and a half, so it’s easy to count. Um, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: I should [00:02:30] have thrown in. Mother of two. Along with the whole thing. The juggle is real, [00:02:35] huh?

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. Um. It’s fun. It’s fun.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:02:40] from that time till now, your career has been absolutely [00:02:45] rocketing.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s a roller coaster.

Payman Langroudi: Must be. Must feel like [00:02:50] that for you.

Agne Malisauskiene: It is. I do remember when we met in the first time [00:02:55] I came to the mini smile makeover, I remember I was so [00:03:00] excited and it was. Everything was so interesting [00:03:05] and I thought, like, how and why would you, um, [00:03:10] trust in me? Because I came as a help for Depeche [00:03:15] and I was like, you met me. We talked for like, uh, I don’t know, two minutes, [00:03:20] three minutes. And you’re like, so you’re coming to mini smile makeover. I have this idea. I [00:03:25] was like, how would you. I just don’t know you though.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:03:30] knew you from before. Like that wasn’t the first time I had met you.

Agne Malisauskiene: Okay. So, [00:03:35] um, I came then and I’ve been coming for, [00:03:40] for a while, I guess up to the, up to the Covid or Brexit or whatever [00:03:45] thing. It was like.

Payman Langroudi: You know what always used to make me feel amazing like, like this mother of two [00:03:50] is getting on a plane and coming all the way to London to help out [00:03:55] on a composite course, and then go all the way back, and you must you must have done that a good six, [00:04:00] eight times. Yeah. Um, and I thought the determination of this person. [00:04:05]

Agne Malisauskiene: Was a mother of one.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you were the one back then. At the time.

Agne Malisauskiene: But [00:04:10] no, you don’t understand. I learned loads. Like I learned loads. [00:04:15] I learned a lot about, um, giving a course, [00:04:20] about teaching a course. I learned a lot about hospitality [00:04:25] of the course. Like so many things come into play and unless you’re [00:04:30] not running your own courses, you have no clue. And this is why [00:04:35] I always say that if someone really wants to do their own courses, oh, [00:04:40] I just dare them and I’m the one to. I’m just gonna watch you after the the day. I’m [00:04:45] just gonna look in your eyes.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just events are tough. It’s tough to make money. [00:04:50] It’s tough to make them amazing without losing money, is what I found. Yes. Um, like [00:04:55] the one I came to in Vilnius. What an amazing event that was. You got just that. I mean, it was amazing [00:05:00] weather, but the outside bit. You guys have done live music, like [00:05:05] some Michelin star food coming out and stuff. And, um, you know, the weird [00:05:10] that it’s kind of like being a dentist that the better, the harder you try, the less [00:05:15] money you make. It is.

Agne Malisauskiene: Always like that because you want everything.

Agne Malisauskiene: Better, you want materials better, [00:05:20] you want equipment better, you want this, that, and then it suddenly becomes you [00:05:25] buying a new camera. It’s just like a pocket money, kind of, because then you bought something [00:05:30] crazy ahead of time. And it is what it is. And [00:05:35] it’s true. And I think that I learned so much and, [00:05:40] um, I would never have done this without you. So [00:05:45] yeah. No, no, no, I told you, you’re my favourite person in Dental industry. I’ve [00:05:50] told you that many times, you know. So this is a thing, you know, I learned a lot. And then [00:05:55] I’m not the one to hide it where I learned it from. So I really like [00:06:00] to, you know, I’m very grateful.

Payman Langroudi: I like that man. I mean, you guys have been so [00:06:05] professional, much more professional than us. When I came over the mantas, [00:06:10] your husband, who handles the the back end of it, sent me all these amazing notes [00:06:15] on what to do from the airport, how to get into Vilnius, how to get to your facility, [00:06:20] all of that. And the facility there is amazing. Tell me about that. So how many people do [00:06:25] you train in your facility?

Agne Malisauskiene: It was meant for 16. Um, [00:06:30] but then we were counting because we were doing [00:06:35] it. We were like reconstructing it from like office building [00:06:40] into the training facility during Covid. So that was a gamble. Yeah, yeah. At the time you [00:06:45] had distancing and first When we started out, we didn’t know if we’re gonna [00:06:50] open at all. Yeah. And then that was a gamble. And then, um, [00:06:55] then new regulation about the social distancing came about. So we counted [00:07:00] that if we see it in every other seat into the, in the row of three, [00:07:05] we would see two. And we’re like, so the math ends up being, I don’t know, 9 [00:07:10] or 10 still okay, still fine. Still we can manage that. And I was like, it’s [00:07:15] three, three, three three. So it’s two, two, two, two eight. And then it was supposed [00:07:20] to be ten. Yeah. Because two and two in the back. And um, and [00:07:25] then it was all fine again. So it was all 16 back again. And then [00:07:30] we bought phantom heads and to move around people on phantom heads because [00:07:35] you cannot go in front and you cannot take the model. You have to go around because there’s a [00:07:40] head. Now we do 1213 um, and it’s okay. [00:07:45]

Payman Langroudi: No, But how many people have gone through your courses in total? Like, what are we talking. [00:07:50] Hundreds.

Agne Malisauskiene: Thousands.

Payman Langroudi: Thousands.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like, how often do you teach there? [00:07:55]

Agne Malisauskiene: I teach. It used to be 12 [00:08:00] times a year. Now it’s about six, [00:08:05] maybe seven, eight. Because now I’m away for too much. So.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:08:10] the rest of the time, other people come in.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course. And the list is amazing. All [00:08:15] the way from DC to Payman Langroudi. Who else? Who else have you had there? You’ve had so many [00:08:20] amazing speakers there.

Agne Malisauskiene: Lucas Lassman. You know the guy. Um oh, [00:08:25] we we had like any, anyone and [00:08:30] everyone that we wanted at the time.

Payman Langroudi: Just list a few for me. Indulge me.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh [00:08:35] dear God.

Agne Malisauskiene: This is very difficult.

Agne Malisauskiene: This is very. Okay, so I [00:08:40] would start with, uh, Ramon Gomez, Maida And, um, Howard [00:08:45] Gluckman. So all the surgical, uh, Ricardo Kern. Kern. [00:08:50] Ricardo was three times. I think he’s booked for the next time again. [00:08:55] Um, we have quite a quite a bit of interest in those surgical [00:09:00] courses as well as composite and, um, for [00:09:05] composite, it works better on hands on for surgical, we can have larger groups. I guess [00:09:10] this is how it goes. They can handle more people. Um Dia has been [00:09:15] there twice. He’s coming back for the third time. Um, [00:09:20] I don’t know. David. Gerardo. Stefan brought we.

Payman Langroudi: He’s been there many times. [00:09:25]

Agne Malisauskiene: Right.

Payman Langroudi: Javier Tapia you’ve had Javier as well.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. Like I don’t know, three [00:09:30] times.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s a country of you know, um, [00:09:35] I was just thinking because I was listening to your, uh, [00:09:40] to her podcast and she was like, she’s referring always. [00:09:45] Oh, I’m Eastern European. So this has happened because I’m eastern. I’m like, first and foremost, we’re Northern [00:09:50] Europeans.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You’re closer to Swedish than you are to Romanian. Yeah. [00:09:55]

Agne Malisauskiene: Because we kind of look more like Norwegians.

Agne Malisauskiene: I would say. Um, in Norway, [00:10:00] everybody talks to me in Norwegian. I just walk down the street. But um, [00:10:05] but it is the land of we have way too [00:10:10] many dentists. Let’s just say that we do. I think we’re like number two or now maybe [00:10:15] number three country out of dentists per capita. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is that.

Agne Malisauskiene: Right? So we [00:10:20] have a lot of dentists. Competition is super high. So everybody needs to be better, faster, stronger. [00:10:25]

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. I remember you telling me composite bonding was in vogue years and years and years [00:10:30] ago. Yeah. You know, because here it’s kind of, I don’t know, five, six years old [00:10:35] as far as, you know, becoming popularised. Maybe a bit more, Maybe a bit [00:10:40] more. Maybe 7 or 8 years old as far as becoming popularised. But you were telling me years ago.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh yeah. Of course.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:10:45] it’s kind of ahead of the curve as well in that sense.

Agne Malisauskiene: No, because it’s cheaper.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [00:10:50] is that why?

Agne Malisauskiene: No, it’s because it’s cheaper. And um we’re not [00:10:55] like we’re not the people to trust somebody else with our stuff. This is what I [00:11:00] think. I think we have trust issues, you know, being post-Soviet and all. Yeah. Um, and [00:11:05] then when you can do something with your hands, you know how it’s going to turn out.

Payman Langroudi: Control. [00:11:10]

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. It’s just a control freaks, basically.

Payman Langroudi: I also found Vilnius [00:11:15] very cool. I mean, I mean, cool is a funny word. Yeah. Because, you know, the kind of look on [00:11:20] people’s faces is kind of kind of, kind of, kind of standoffish. Yeah. But what I love [00:11:25] about it is that like, they kind of stand offish until they’re not. And then suddenly they’re the complete opposite, [00:11:30] like, trust you with their lives.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, it is. It is like that. It is like that because [00:11:35] you have to.

Payman Langroudi: Flip is amazing.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s the fact that everybody is like protecting [00:11:40] their own space, their environment.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Up until the point that they’re [00:11:45] like, you’ve been in their environment for long enough for some, you may need five minutes, [00:11:50] for some a little bit longer. And then they’re.

Agne Malisauskiene: Like.

Agne Malisauskiene: Here to get you.

Payman Langroudi: But also, but also [00:11:55] like really cool coffee shops, cool design everywhere. Um, it’s [00:12:00] you moved from here to there, didn’t you? Came here for a while. Yeah. And [00:12:05] then you moved back and what was, was the sort of the driver for that. Could you tell Vilnius [00:12:10] is happening and I need to get back. No, no, it was a.

Payman Langroudi: Driver.

Agne Malisauskiene: No, the first [00:12:15] and foremost, I never thought I’m gonna move to UK.

Payman Langroudi: I was just here for a bit. [00:12:20]

Agne Malisauskiene: Well, my plan was to be here for a year. But then [00:12:25] Mantas, my husband, he got way too comfortable. He got [00:12:30] way too comfortable. The thing was that, well, the idea was basically [00:12:35] that he was approached at LinkedIn. Someone offered him a job. Um, [00:12:40] and he said, I’m gonna apply. And before that, in Lithuania, we were working [00:12:45] both of us 8 to 8 every day. And sometimes I would come in on Saturdays because [00:12:50] somebody wanted something. And I’m, I’m a people pleaser. So I like to for [00:12:55] everybody to feel comfortable around me. So this is what it is. And I’m like, okay, I will [00:13:00] come in on Saturday. But then you see that 20 like that 8 [00:13:05] to 8, 12 hours a day doesn’t really work that well. And then he [00:13:10] got, you know, he was working at UI at that point. Yeah. [00:13:15] So they were working, I don’t know, these people don’t understand the holidays.

Payman Langroudi: Anything [00:13:20] consultant.

Agne Malisauskiene: Was.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah, he was a tax.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. They basically say here’s a [00:13:25] phone answer it any time day or night.

Agne Malisauskiene: And it was crazy. Um, [00:13:30] we would get back home around nine ish 9 p.m. or so. [00:13:35] And then so he got a message on LinkedIn. He applied and suddenly [00:13:40] he got a job and he said, what do we do in London? You [00:13:45] mean it was Brighton? Brighton. And I was started. I started [00:13:50] to cry. I said, I don’t want to be a chicken factory girl. I’m a dentist. Because it [00:13:55] looked like all of Lithuania’s who were moving. That was a long time ago. When the [00:14:00] borders open, right. They would go either to strawberry farms or chicken factory. [00:14:05] That was like it was a major joke. And I was like, I expected to go to Spain for a year [00:14:10] or something like that. But then I told him that if I can get a job really [00:14:15] fast, like in a month or so, we can move. I got a job [00:14:20] in three days. Wow, that was super fast. And and then we moved there. I [00:14:25] came a month later, um, because I had to fix [00:14:30] all the documents and everything else. I came a month later and we had a completely [00:14:35] different life. Um.

Payman Langroudi: What was your first impression of UK dentistry [00:14:40] compared to what you were used to?

Agne Malisauskiene: First and foremost, very short working hours. I [00:14:45] would work from 930 to 5 p.m. with one hour lunch break. We didn’t know [00:14:50] what to do with our time. We signed up at the library. We were reading books. [00:14:55] We were walking by the by the sea. We were working by the water.

Payman Langroudi: We would work on the practice. Was it a [00:15:00] mixed or a.

Agne Malisauskiene: It was completely private.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Agne Malisauskiene: Um, I could not do NHS. It takes [00:15:05] like a year to get.

Payman Langroudi: Oh the number.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. So just it just too long. [00:15:10] Right. So it was completely private. Um I was on a salary, not on [00:15:15] the percentage. Later on I, I was told that the salary was very [00:15:20] low, but honestly, it was, it was, [00:15:25] I don’t know. Um the problem I had very nice clinic. I [00:15:30] had my own room nobody like to share it with, and everything [00:15:35] was super clean, sterile. That I was not used to that kind of [00:15:40] a thing. So when the Covid hit in Lithuania, I was like, now it’s normal, now it’s normal, now everything [00:15:45] is clean, now it’s normal. I don’t like you filthy people. But, um, [00:15:50] so it was a lot different. Um, it was an implant clinic. So everything was [00:15:55] oriented about the implants. I came there to do only interiors. And [00:16:00] once I came, I was told three times you watch um implant placement [00:16:05] three times. And the fourth time you’re doing it yourself. And I was like implant no. And [00:16:10] they’re like, no, no, no, that’s easy. But I ended up not doing one implant ever. [00:16:15] I did do porcelain. I did endo, which I was not doing at home [00:16:20] at that moment, but it was easy and dose in UK because in Lithuania everything was calcified. [00:16:25] Like you would be like the third person going into that tooth, there is always the first [00:16:30] one.

Payman Langroudi: And what about patient mindset? Oh dear. What’s [00:16:35] the biggest difference?

Agne Malisauskiene: I’m not very sensitive person. Right. So the thing is that my [00:16:40] patients will tell you that I’m very compassionate, but only because [00:16:45] they’re Lithuanian. So they’re kind of used to being like a very, um, [00:16:50] straightforward approach. Right. I’m very direct. And, um, you know, [00:16:55] if you need, uh, what if someone comes to me like a person, right? Not a patient, like a person [00:17:00] and they’re complaining about something. So if you want solutions, [00:17:05] you come to me. But if you need a shoulder to cry on, it’s probably not. I’m not the person. [00:17:10] So I would be like, okay, we’re doing, um, panoramic X-ray and [00:17:15] we’re checking everything. And I’m like, okay, so Mrs. this and this I [00:17:20] see this is a cavity. This is a cavity. This is a cavity. This is that, this is this tooth is okay. This is that, [00:17:25] this is that. Oh, that’s neat. Root canal. This needs extraction. And then somebody’s crying and [00:17:30] I’m like, what what what what what what? So that was very [00:17:35] strange. And, um, I [00:17:40] had to get used to that. I got used to that pretty easily. So. So [00:17:45] apparently on the first visit you just get rapport. Yes, [00:17:50] basically. And then you just talk about fairy tales and, and, you [00:17:55] know, I don’t know, rainbows and butterflies and something else. And then you slowly get them into that mood, [00:18:00] you know, about talking about serious stuff, right? So I got used to that. [00:18:05] But then I was super popular amongst Italians, [00:18:10] French, Spanish, and somehow there was like a big group of Bulgarians that would come to me. [00:18:15] So I ended up being an ex-pat dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, funny.

Agne Malisauskiene: And they would [00:18:20] come to the American dentist. They would say, I want to see that American one. I was like, I’m not American. [00:18:25] I’m like, don’t worry.

Payman Langroudi: Did you speak English perfectly at that point?

Agne Malisauskiene: I went to high school [00:18:30] in the middle of cornfields in Indiana when I was 16 for a year in the military [00:18:35] academy.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I see.

Agne Malisauskiene: So I could speak not like it would [00:18:40] not be very Dental ish words, right? Yeah. Um, sometimes I still [00:18:45] have a hard time to express myself.

Payman Langroudi: So was your. What? Your dad was a military guy?

Agne Malisauskiene: No, [00:18:50] I was a smart kid. I got a scholarship in a very fancy school.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I see.

Agne Malisauskiene: And [00:18:55] I was alone by yourself. Boarding school? Yeah. For a year.

Payman Langroudi: What a formative.

Payman Langroudi: Thing to happen. [00:19:00] Like, did it form you that.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, it did.

Payman Langroudi: It must have.

Agne Malisauskiene: Right.

Agne Malisauskiene: I, um, it [00:19:05] changed me completely. Like it changed everything. What I see I [00:19:10] come from, you know, again, eastern northern Europe and I come [00:19:15] there and everything is different. It’s in the middle of cornfields. It’s a massive school. Think [00:19:20] about Harry Potter land, right? There was like kilometres and kilometres [00:19:25] of that school. And every single class happens in a different building. Everybody wears uniform [00:19:30] all the time. In a year there were like four days that you can [00:19:35] wear civil clothes that they called them.

Payman Langroudi: Whoa.

Agne Malisauskiene: And everything was counted. [00:19:40]

Payman Langroudi: It’s very un-American, isn’t it?

Agne Malisauskiene: Very inspections. Every day you stand there and then, you know, [00:19:45] for girls it was okay. For boys, it was proper left, left, left, [00:19:50] right, left. It’s like they were proper military, right. Um, for girls, it was calmer [00:19:55] kind of a thing. You still had to salute when you go to a certain place, but, um.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:20:00] you were in military uniform?

Agne Malisauskiene: Um, no, no, it looked like a preppy kind of [00:20:05] a preppy school uniform. Boys were in military [00:20:10] uniforms all the time, like all of their things that whatever. Yeah, yeah, [00:20:15] yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Stuff. General.

Agne Malisauskiene: What it gave me, it’s crazy because [00:20:20] one of the main, um, every new student [00:20:25] doesn’t matter the grade they’re coming into. Um, they had to take this, um, [00:20:30] informational literacy class. Um, that was [00:20:35] the way they taught were to get the information, how to use library [00:20:40] that’s physical, how to use PubMed for example. Right. And we [00:20:45] all had to do thesis, write research papers and do like proper research. [00:20:50] And I was. So if the ninth grader comes in, they do this. [00:20:55] I was at the 11th grade. I would go with ninth graders or 10th graders, whoever come. We, [00:21:00] we formed that class. And then we were taught that. And another very [00:21:05] important class was called leadership. So you would have robotics [00:21:10] one day. And then, um, what they were telling us and the way [00:21:15] they were teaching us is how you can be a leader. And if [00:21:20] you don’t want to be a leader, everybody’s got a space in the team. So teamwork was [00:21:25] the idea that everybody would find their own path, their own space, and [00:21:30] everybody had to take some sort of a leadership in academics. Doesn’t matter how good they are. [00:21:35] They still had to take a leadership in academics. Academics would mean you can [00:21:40] tutor Jim, you can tutor anything else you can [00:21:45] tutor, or you can help others to find something in the library. You still had a job to do, per [00:21:50] se. Everybody had a job. And then because it was a boarding school, even the [00:21:55] kids who were not boarding full time, they would have to be. And they [00:22:00] had a room and a bed that they would stay a certain amount of time per [00:22:05] semester.

Payman Langroudi: To be part of it.

Agne Malisauskiene: Because they had to be in there because in the dorm you also had [00:22:10] leadership positions. So it’s either dorm, prefect, hall, prefect, [00:22:15] someone who’s responsible for making sure that the trash is taken out [00:22:20] in the kitchen, is cleaned up, and then everybody had to have those [00:22:25] positions. And for me, that was very odd, very strange. But [00:22:30] then I came back home and I was like the one who would say hi to everybody [00:22:35] or say, oh, I really like your skirt. Oh, you look so nice.

Payman Langroudi: Normally happen in Lithuania. [00:22:40]

Agne Malisauskiene: And then everybody would look at me like, she is properly insane person. [00:22:45] And I think that contributed so much to who I am now.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:22:50] it’s so interesting, you know, because I’ve had people here who have [00:22:55] been soldiers, um, or sometimes, you know, dentists in, in the [00:23:00] military and who’ve gone on to do unbelievable things, [00:23:05] you know, using that discipline. Um, you know, following [00:23:10] instructions, a simple thing. Yeah. But you’re a teacher. Yeah. You have a class of 12 people. [00:23:15] Four of them definitely don’t follow instructions at all, and [00:23:20] four of them follow instructions really well, and then everyone else is in the middle. Yeah. And I have had [00:23:25] similar situations. There are certain individuals who just follow instructions. They do what they’re [00:23:30] taught. Yeah. And the military kind of makes you that person. Yeah. So I’ve [00:23:35] had I’ve had a guy here, um, Mike pesca and he’s, he’s like gone [00:23:40] from the military to opening a practice, selling it four [00:23:45] years later for ten times what he bought it for, then teaching other dentists and, [00:23:50] and he puts it all down to having the mindset of discipline and following instructions. [00:23:55] Then you get other types of soldiers who have been through war and [00:24:00] are damaged goods. Yeah. You know, they’ve got PTSD and they can’t relate [00:24:05] and work. And I was trying to find out from him, you know, how come one guy comes out and [00:24:10] uses uses it like that and another guy comes out and ends up homeless or, [00:24:15] or or whatever, you know, what’s the difference between those two people? But that’s [00:24:20] an aside. I want to get back to you.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, it’s a brain damaged again, I guess.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. [00:24:25]

Agne Malisauskiene: Do you know about the brain scans that they would do? They did a test from [00:24:30] the troops that would come back from Afghanistan, for example.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: They would age in [00:24:35] one session that they go they go for like what, six months in one session?

Agne Malisauskiene: One day.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. One tour. [00:24:40] They would age minimum five years. Some would age like 30 years. [00:24:45]

Agne Malisauskiene: Wow.

Agne Malisauskiene: And that PTSD is insane. Like they hear something gets [00:24:50] bombs in their heads.

Agne Malisauskiene: Like, yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: And I guess it depends where they were stationed and all the [00:24:55] rest of them and still personal things.

Agne Malisauskiene: And I used to.

Payman Langroudi: Think it’s the odd soldier that that [00:25:00] happens to, but the way people describe it to me is the odd soldier that it doesn’t [00:25:05] happen to, you know, in those conditions, like living in that condition of constantly thinking [00:25:10] something is going to go wrong. And and like you say, explosions, helicopters. Um, I’ve got another [00:25:15] friend who used to teach on MSM. And every time a helicopter would go over, he would fall to the [00:25:20] ground, you know, like because of his experience.

Payman Langroudi: Here you go.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I want to know [00:25:25] about how did you even find out about this school and why were you this swotty kid? Like, why? [00:25:30] When do you remember not being top of your class?

Agne Malisauskiene: I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve always been [00:25:35] that.

Payman Langroudi: Kid.

Agne Malisauskiene: My kid is as well.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:25:40] is there is there not a why there? So like, you know, like, you know, like some people are, there’s [00:25:45] sometimes there’s an event or there’s a situation, one person sort [00:25:50] of ends up jumping into their books.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. [00:25:55]

Agne Malisauskiene: No.

Agne Malisauskiene: No.

Agne Malisauskiene: No, just a good girl. Like.

Agne Malisauskiene: No, it was, [00:26:00] um, you know, maybe it’s odd to say, but it [00:26:05] was not like I would never study before the exam past [00:26:10] 10 p.m., I had the saying that if you didn’t eat enough, you [00:26:15] don’t have what to look from. Right. So I would never study before the exam.

Payman Langroudi: Like if I [00:26:20] the night before, you mean?

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah, if I but not any night. I would go to sleep [00:26:25] at 10 p.m. and I would wake up at seven in the morning. And, um, [00:26:30] and I think that I would always say that with your fresh brain, you can think [00:26:35] better. For me, even now, dentistry is very logical. If you [00:26:40] actually, if I needed to memorise, this is why I was bad in history. There’s no [00:26:45] logic there. Well, now I think it is because you can follow the [00:26:50] circadian kind of, uh, things that happen, right? But, um, everything [00:26:55] in school is quite logical. If you use your brain, you can [00:27:00] find the answers to things. And I think I was using [00:27:05] that brain. So for me, I would rather have my brain working rather [00:27:10] than I didn’t sleep and I didn’t do something right. So sometimes I would do like this, [00:27:15] especially I remember the, uh, an anatomy exam in university. It [00:27:20] was like so hard. And I was like, please, please, please don’t. We would have to pick out the [00:27:25] the bone kind of names. And then we have to tell everything about the bone. I ended [00:27:30] up getting, um, a palm, all the bones. And I was like, I did [00:27:35] not read about this, but then because it’s Latin, you can [00:27:40] think about the bone, where it starts, where it ends, and you can figure out the name [00:27:45] because somebody had to name these things or tuberosities or something. Yeah, [00:27:50] they had to name it and they didn’t invent the names out of like anything. [00:27:55] It was made in perfect on purpose. So I got like my, I don’t know what B plus [00:28:00] without knowing anything, it just logic’s out of that.

Agne Malisauskiene: And coming back to the school. [00:28:05] It was not the school, it’s the program. It’s called the American Secondary Schools for International Students [00:28:10] and Teachers. It’s a big program. It’s just global, right? So they take [00:28:15] 10th graders or 15 year olds at that time, generally, depending on what [00:28:20] grade you are, I guess now. Um, and then you need, um, transcript from [00:28:25] school. Uh, you need to show that you’re doing extracurriculars. So that means [00:28:30] pictures and some notes. And then you need one English teacher recommendation and [00:28:35] two other teachers recommendations. And then you send that out. Um, and [00:28:40] then their English language exam, which is very easy. And [00:28:45] then, and then there is an interview. So we were 33 at [00:28:50] the interview, the final stages, the interview. So they, they kind of a check first, the grades [00:28:55] and everything else. References. Then they choose, they chose it. My year was 110 [00:29:00] I think for the English language exam and after the exam it was 33 [00:29:05] that went in for the interview. And um you don’t pick schools [00:29:10] so it’s it’s chosen for you. I think at that time it was like 500 schools in the [00:29:15] US. And then but the interviewers, because I know now how it [00:29:20] goes. So interviewers, what they do, they kind of mark and they have kind of a, they look at you [00:29:25] and they kind of have an idea that you would belong well, in that school. [00:29:30] How would they choose a military academy for me when, when my friend got, um, [00:29:35] she was not my friend at that time. We met there and my friend got all girls school. [00:29:40] That was a lot different than mine was.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: But, um, [00:29:45] but then you get chosen and then you wait for the like I got, [00:29:50] I got in the list. So I was there and then you get a month later [00:29:55] an email with the school when you cannot really say no anymore.

Payman Langroudi: Changed [00:30:00] your life in a way, right?

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh it does. And now I’m quite active on the [00:30:05] on the on that program I do.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Agne Malisauskiene: Donate money. [00:30:10] I do.

Payman Langroudi: Believe.

Agne Malisauskiene: Because I do feel like, you know, it helped me so much. And [00:30:15] I know the organisation, the charity, the fund that is involved in organising [00:30:20] that in Lithuania. So I do that through them. It’s super nice and [00:30:25] it’s nice. I think it’s this is the American thought as well. They [00:30:30] everybody had to do charity work in school as well. Everybody [00:30:35] had to be involved.

Payman Langroudi: In the.

Payman Langroudi: Charity sector in America is gigantic.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Gigantic. [00:30:40] Partly because the state doesn’t help.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, it’s in a way that it does [00:30:45] more heavy lifting the charity sector in the US and people, people who [00:30:50] make it in the US tend to like do some form of [00:30:55] charity, whether it’s a religious thing or whether they just want to be famous [00:31:00] for being a philanthropist or whatever. As a as a country, it’s one of the [00:31:05] cornerstones. Whereas here there is charity, but there’s also a state. There’s a safety [00:31:10] net that, you know, you lose your job in America, you can fall right through the net. [00:31:15] You know, if you a couple of bad things can happen here and you could fall right through the net, the [00:31:20] health insurance.

Agne Malisauskiene: It.

Agne Malisauskiene: Is crazy.

Payman Langroudi: It’s it’s a country of winning and losing, isn’t it?

Agne Malisauskiene: You know.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:31:25] tell me this. When did dentistry come into the mix? Did you have any family [00:31:30] members?

Agne Malisauskiene: No.

Payman Langroudi: Well, what did your parents do?

Agne Malisauskiene: My. [00:31:35] My parents both graduated from, um, university. [00:31:40] That is for teachers. So, um, my dad was supposed to be [00:31:45] a teacher of, I don’t know how you call it, but this like crafts, the wooden kind of thing. [00:31:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: This is where everybody went because they wanted to go to university. That was like [00:31:55] easy escape. You just get in. You don’t apply, you just get in. And my mom [00:32:00] was supposed to be a physics teacher, though she was. She always wanted to be a doctor. She [00:32:05] was smart enough to be a doctor, but she was from a small village out of, [00:32:10] um, five, six kids. Let’s just call them. And, um, [00:32:15] her older sister didn’t get into the pharmacy the first year, and [00:32:20] she was like, ashamed of that. So she didn’t want to see that. So she just went to be a physics [00:32:25] teacher because she knew she will get in easily. Um, and [00:32:30] my dad, so my mom was working at university of those teachers [00:32:35] again.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, she.

Payman Langroudi: Was working in.

Agne Malisauskiene: She was working.

Agne Malisauskiene: At the same university. Um, and [00:32:40] my dad was a driver for the pharmaceutical company. He still is.

Agne Malisauskiene: And, [00:32:45] you know, he was like.

Payman Langroudi: What they call what your dad learned is here, they call [00:32:50] it design and tech. Yeah, yeah. Um, interestingly, you know, he did a, a level [00:32:55] final exam in design and tech, as well as physics, maths and chemistry, [00:33:00] whatever the ones you need to get into dentistry. And he says that that design and tech thing [00:33:05] helped him much more or helps him much more every day than [00:33:10] physics, chemistry and maths. Um.

Agne Malisauskiene: Of course.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:33:15] of, you know, like just a lot of dentistry is engineering in a way, right?

Agne Malisauskiene: So [00:33:20] that’s a thing. Everybody says it’s an art. For me, it’s so far from art [00:33:25] because you’re not creating anything. You’re copying what you do. You’re just trying [00:33:30] to copy something, right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And forms. Form follows. Function. Right. That’s it. [00:33:35] Really. When you first click that, I think for me, it was maybe eight years after I qualified [00:33:40] where it just clicked that why are these things, these shapes? Why [00:33:45] are they these shapes? There’s a reason, there’s a reason, there’s a reason. There’s weather. You know, there’s a contact [00:33:50] where food doesn’t get in or there’s a lip, you know, there’s the the space for your tongue. You know, [00:33:55] there’s all of it is for a reason or you’re, of course, the occlusion and the way things move over each other. And [00:34:00] it’s a very empowering idea. Right?

Agne Malisauskiene: It is. And I think of a.

Agne Malisauskiene: Dentistry [00:34:05] as engineering, but also as a craft. So it’s a craft. And, [00:34:10] and I guess if somebody asked me.

Payman Langroudi: Attention to detail is this is this what [00:34:15] you mean by craft?

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Well, crafty, that means that you can do [00:34:20] small, tiny things with your hands, basically.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Agne Malisauskiene: And, uh, [00:34:25] and if somebody asked me, oh, do you think I should go to dental school? [00:34:30] I say, did you do any crafts as a kid? Meaning you would sit for hours and do small, [00:34:35] tiny things with your hands? I don’t know whether that’s plasticine, something like moulding something [00:34:40] with your hands or knitting or crochet for me was crochet. I would make [00:34:45] like crochet napkins to all the aunts, but I would not make one. I would [00:34:50] get a set for them, and it was so fast in that I did make myself [00:34:55] like pants and purses and things like that. So it’s very hard for [00:35:00] me to sell craft because I look at it. I’m like, I was eight, I could do that. [00:35:05]

Payman Langroudi: Okay, so, so so why dentistry? Like because of that.

Agne Malisauskiene: But no. [00:35:10]

Payman Langroudi: How did it.

Agne Malisauskiene: Happen? My, um, my uncle’s wife was a dentist and [00:35:15] there was a dental chair, uh, probably super illegal thing. She [00:35:20] had a dental chair in the grandma’s wooden house where there was [00:35:25] no running water. I don’t just, I remember as a very small child [00:35:30] that she would have that dental chair. I don’t know why, but maybe it was just stored there. But [00:35:35] I remember that, uh, but we were not close to them. I just knew that she [00:35:40] was a dentist. That was pretty much it. And then, um, I was super scared of dentists. Like [00:35:45] my heart would like flutter. And when I had to get sealants, I told my mom I will do [00:35:50] it myself. She should wait downstairs. I never came in. I just went to the bathroom, sat there [00:35:55] for a little waited, and then I left and I said, it’s all done.

Payman Langroudi: Does that inform the [00:36:00] way you handle patients? Like nervous patients? Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Because I’m [00:36:05] I go through the jokes like if they say I’m scared and I [00:36:10] said, good, because I am not. It would be a problem that if I was [00:36:15] scared and then suddenly they’re like, changed their minds. I talk through [00:36:20] what I do and I say, there’s going to be a moment that you will fall asleep. And [00:36:25] they’re like, no, no, not me, not me. And I’m like, yes, there’s going to be a moment that you will fall asleep. That’s fine. [00:36:30] I will wake you up when I need to do the polishing because this will scare you, the sounds and everything [00:36:35] else. And um, so it’s quite fine. I did have patient [00:36:40] long, long time ago, after I graduated. The one that would [00:36:45] have her hands over her mouth. She was a kid. Um, it took me [00:36:50] five visits to get the hands off. Um, I was very young [00:36:55] and very determined, so I had to do this. And that kid. Oh, she [00:37:00] would go to me for forever to listen.

Payman Langroudi: People underestimate if [00:37:05] you’re good with nervous patients. People underestimate what a massive thing that is. Because, [00:37:10] you know, I don’t know about, uh, Lithuania, but here the studies that I [00:37:15] saw, half the population are scared, of course. So that means that means half the. And [00:37:20] then the great thing about scared patients is they talk to each other when they find one, [00:37:25] a gentle dentist, they talk to each other and it runs in families somehow. You [00:37:30] know, the scare stories about dentists runs. So the word of mouth is gigantic. [00:37:35]

Agne Malisauskiene: Just look at the parents.

Agne Malisauskiene: That they bring kids to the dentist and they say the dentist will [00:37:40] not do anything to you. Of course they will. Like why? It’s not gonna hurt. [00:37:45] They’re not gonna know. You don’t say that. You say yes, they’re gonna have to [00:37:50] do something, but they will tell you what they’re doing. It’s not something. It’s not the punishment that, you know, [00:37:55] parents would make this as a punishment, bringing their own kids to [00:38:00] a dentist appointment. Or this is what I realised. I’ve done that to my kid as well. [00:38:05] Not with the dentist that I said, do you want to go to the hospital? And I was like, no, you [00:38:10] should never do this because it’s not a bad place. So I was like, policemen are good people [00:38:15] who are trying to help. If you need help, you seek for one. That’s fine. It’s, [00:38:20] you know, a doctor is someone who’s trying to help you. Nobody’s trying to hurt you, you know? So [00:38:25] I think that’s just.

Agne Malisauskiene: A mindset.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of a big change in culturally in [00:38:30] Lithuania. I’m sure that when you were a kid going to the dentist [00:38:35] was I remember in Iran, right? The dentist would shout at the kid straight away.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh [00:38:40] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: They would just to just to get compliance and they could be so scared. Um, and then you look at Lithuania [00:38:45] today where, I mean, I see the way you are with, with your kids, like in a totally different [00:38:50] situation.

Agne Malisauskiene: Paediatric dentists have like hats on their like, and then there’s cartoons [00:38:55] and things are going on. And my kids, they’re like the ones that are, they come [00:39:00] to me with a single tooth toothbrush and floss every [00:39:05] night. And I sit in the corridor and they lay back like [00:39:10] they’re like a patient and I floss, and I use this thing because they brush their teeth with the [00:39:15] toothbrush, which is nothing. Right? So then they come with single tooth toothbrush and floss. This [00:39:20] is my job. And, um, Manta says, my husband, he says, this is your [00:39:25] personal time with them.

Payman Langroudi: Uh.

Agne Malisauskiene: You know, they’re a minute [00:39:30] of, uh, of, of mommy and kid time and they love it. It’s just so weird [00:39:35] because they do like the clean mouth. They do like the, I don’t know, going to a dentist for [00:39:40] them. It’s a cool.

Agne Malisauskiene: Thing.

Payman Langroudi: I want to touch on two areas that I think are kind of related. Yeah, [00:39:45] you may disagree, but I want to get to. Okay. You can be, you can be a really hard working, studying [00:39:50] person. Yeah. But not have the ambition [00:39:55] side. Yeah. Like, I think I have plenty of friends top [00:40:00] of their class.

Agne Malisauskiene: I do two.

Payman Langroudi: Top, top of their class, but now like they’re [00:40:05] in an institution, you know, institutionalised.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Almost like [00:40:10] love school and almost love rules. But, you know, out there in the real world, [00:40:15] rules, people break rules. Yeah. And they’re almost like, can’t handle the fact that people break rules. So [00:40:20] they stay in universities and schools and institutions. So but you, [00:40:25] you’ve got this sort of ambition that you can’t ignore. I can’t ignore [00:40:30] when I think about, you know, your trajectory, the ambition is huge.

Agne Malisauskiene: It is.

Payman Langroudi: So I want [00:40:35] to know where that comes from. I want to know what it feels like to be that person, but also, [00:40:40] I think the reverse side of that coin is sacrifice.

Agne Malisauskiene: Uh, [00:40:45] I don’t know. Well, first and foremost, about the ambition, um, [00:40:50] the idea for me was always, I [00:40:55] don’t play games that I cannot win. So if I play the game, I will do [00:41:00] everything competitive. I’m very competitive. Like I would go racing [00:41:05] in school. Um, running. Um, I [00:41:10] was probably not the fittest one, not the fastest one, but the adrenaline would go [00:41:15] up. Like I was the most determined and I would run the fastest [00:41:20] only because the adrenaline runs so high. I don’t [00:41:25] play poker. You know why? Because once, if I would learn how to.

Payman Langroudi: Play poker face.

Agne Malisauskiene: No, [00:41:30] it’s like I have, like, subtitles on my forehead. But then if I were to do that, [00:41:35] I would be into that, I’m sure.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I see, yeah. [00:41:40]

Agne Malisauskiene: So for me, everything is a little bit of a game.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Agne Malisauskiene: And I love it. [00:41:45] And I love competition. Anything in anything and everything from [00:41:50] the childhood. And there is a thing, and this is probably [00:41:55] comes from the background, trying to prove yourself to anyone and everyone. [00:42:00] Like.

Payman Langroudi: Are you the kind of person? If I say you’ll never achieve that, then you’re gonna [00:42:05] 1,000% achieve it.

Agne Malisauskiene: So this is what happened with that channel.

Agne Malisauskiene: At the end of the day, [00:42:10] this is what happened with dentistry. Um, because when I was in the US, I [00:42:15] had this private scholarship to go to Stanford to study economics [00:42:20] and Russian language. Wow. I’m pretty sure I would be in Siberia running some cigarette [00:42:25] business right now, but because there would be in that school, it’s it’s college prep. They would [00:42:30] come. Certain people, let’s just call them that. And they pick and choose and they [00:42:35] give you interviews and then they say, we can pay you if you go reach this great [00:42:40] SATs, SATs because you need some threshold. Right. And I did the perfect [00:42:45] score of all these exams. I never understood how I don’t have to pay what everybody else [00:42:50] pays for the exams. I never paid for any of these exams, so probably [00:42:55] somebody paid for that. I don’t know how that goes. Now, thinking about the American.

Payman Langroudi: They [00:43:00] were training you to be a spy.

Agne Malisauskiene: I’m pretty sure. Like there was something about that. And [00:43:05] so that idea was out there, you know, they’re kind of like, [00:43:10] I can go to a very fancy school, right? There’s like a dream come true. And [00:43:15] then I went back home and I went to 12th year and [00:43:20] in Lithuania and the final exam preparation is final two years, the first [00:43:25] year, which is 11th grade. What you do, you need to read all the books [00:43:30] because Lithuanian language exam is the main exam. Right. And for that main exam, [00:43:35] we had to write an interpretation or an essay. But you need to have a background of those books [00:43:40] because they give you an expert excerpt. And then you have to write down. Right. And I didn’t read any [00:43:45] of those books. So Lithuanian language teacher who was new at the school, she said, when I came in [00:43:50] to 12th grade that I made them let me go in, even though I didn’t do [00:43:55] any chemistry in 11th grade at all, because it did not fit my fancy [00:44:00] schedule in the school. But, um, so that Lithuanian language teacher, she [00:44:05] said, you will not graduate because you didn’t read books and you don’t have time anymore. And [00:44:10] I said, okay. And she said, if you fail, you will not [00:44:15] get into university. And I said, what is the hardest to get into? And she said, [00:44:20] dentistry. And I said, watch me. I got 100%. We get graded by the curve. [00:44:25] I got 100% from Lithuanian exam. I went in and I told her.

Payman Langroudi: So dentistry is the hardest thing to get into. Or [00:44:30] was.

Agne Malisauskiene: It was. Well, maybe.

Agne Malisauskiene: It still is.

Payman Langroudi: It’s become that way now when I when [00:44:35] I qualified, it wasn’t. But it’s become that way here. It’s much harder than medicine to get. Not much harder. It’s [00:44:40] harder than medicine.

Agne Malisauskiene: To get it.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s usually when, when somebody in medicine we say, you didn’t get into [00:44:45] dentistry.

Agne Malisauskiene: In my day, my day.

Payman Langroudi: Was the exact opposite. I’d say maybe half my year, [00:44:50] a quarter of my year, were people who couldn’t get into medicine.

Payman Langroudi: Think about [00:44:55] it. Just five.

Payman Langroudi: Years compared to ten.

Payman Langroudi: Years. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just five.

Agne Malisauskiene: Years compared [00:45:00] to ten.

Payman Langroudi: Years. How were you.

Payman Langroudi: As a as a dental student? Like which student were you? The hardest working one in the [00:45:05] room. That guy. The party. The party animal?

Agne Malisauskiene: No.

Payman Langroudi: Who were you?

Agne Malisauskiene: It [00:45:10] was.

Agne Malisauskiene: A small. It was 27 of us.

Agne Malisauskiene: In the year.

Agne Malisauskiene: That year. And [00:45:15] then we were divided into four women.

Payman Langroudi: Right. I noticed.

Agne Malisauskiene: Two boys.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:45:20] funny.

Agne Malisauskiene: We graduated with one. Uh, [00:45:25] whose dad was the head of the dental chamber.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:45:30] which which student were you? What kind of student were you? Did you find it easy?

Agne Malisauskiene: I mean, the practical [00:45:35] aspect. Things.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Were you were you were you?

Agne Malisauskiene: I was the one organising things. I [00:45:40] was good at school, so I was not. I was not memorising things. I was not aiming [00:45:45] for the perfect ace because I really hoped for that. Like life. I wanted [00:45:50] like a college life. Never had that Dental students don’t really have that. But I had [00:45:55] amazing classmates and we. That group of. When [00:46:00] they divided us into that was we could choose our group. So, um, [00:46:05] I was, I don’t know, I was the organiser of things and I was the organiser [00:46:10] of events because we would have those events, right? The christenings and whatever things they [00:46:15] do that in universities. So I was organiser of things. Um I was the one [00:46:20] who was doing good, but we were the group that we would get the most practical work because [00:46:25] our teachers, the whole group, so the teachers would trust us and we would [00:46:30] get patients from residents. So we had a lot of hands on. We didn’t have to help each other work. So [00:46:35] we every, you know, the fifth year, for example, it was six hour hands [00:46:40] on work on patients every day. And, um, so [00:46:45] we get to do a lot of that.

Payman Langroudi: So my question about ambition [00:46:50] and the other side of it being sacrifice. Do you not feel like you’ve sacrificed anything in this journey? [00:46:55]

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s a.

Agne Malisauskiene: Priority. You have, you have. If somebody says, I sacrifice something [00:47:00] this, this and that, you’re trying to put the blame on somebody [00:47:05] else or on something.

Payman Langroudi: So I see how hard you guys work. Yeah, I was [00:47:10] there that weekend. You had another course going on. Um, you know, multiple hours. [00:47:15] Um, the sacrifice in that, you know.

Agne Malisauskiene: Is there is the kids.

Payman Langroudi: The kids [00:47:20] number one. I mean, it doesn’t have to be the kids. I know as a mother, you always have to be sort of programmed [00:47:25] to feel guilty about how little time you spend.

Agne Malisauskiene: Like men.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t have that.

Payman Langroudi: Guilt.

Agne Malisauskiene: My little one, [00:47:30] he translates very well. He was like, mommy, no, please don’t go. Don’t go anywhere. Can I go into your suitcase? [00:47:35]

Payman Langroudi: But but but so you accept sacrifice as.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah, like a norm. [00:47:40]

Payman Langroudi: I think, you know, the interesting thing about it is I think about when doing [00:47:45] a product launch, you know, it things get so hairy, like this ministry of [00:47:50] sound thing that’s coming up now. Things, things get so much, by the way, you’re lecturing, amazing [00:47:55] things get so busy that even silly things. I mean, I missed my brother’s [00:48:00] birthday because I literally couldn’t, you know, I had to do whatever I had to do. Um, [00:48:05] as a business owner, you end up doing that. And then when you layer [00:48:10] in travel on top of that and you just got off a plane, [00:48:15] right?

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Even a short flight to, to Vilnius or from Vilnius to London is tiring. [00:48:20]

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. It is.

Payman Langroudi: It’s tiring, you know, sitting around the airport, the dehydration. Though, and [00:48:25] so did the driver. The source of the flame driving you? [00:48:30] Is it like something to do with. You want to live up to your potential? Is [00:48:35] it a financial thing?

Agne Malisauskiene: I’m pretty.

Agne Malisauskiene: Sure I’m still trying to prove everybody. [00:48:40]

Agne Malisauskiene: Wrong. Really?

Agne Malisauskiene: Really it. It is like [00:48:45] that. Um. Yesterday my friend, um, sent me this reel on Instagram [00:48:50] and on the reel they’re talking to the female. The first female [00:48:55] to the astronauts. Now, who are going on to the moon, right. So [00:49:00] there’s an interview and they’re like, so if you can say just before your flight something, [00:49:05] uh, what would you say? And she said, mom, I’m [00:49:10] a good am I good enough now?

Agne Malisauskiene: And I was like, that’s [00:49:15] the thing.

Agne Malisauskiene: That’s the.

Agne Malisauskiene: Thing.

Agne Malisauskiene: Are you good enough? And you know, [00:49:20] I grew up in the you know, my husband always says that you have to understand the environment. [00:49:25] I’m like, yeah, but no, I grew up in that environment [00:49:30] that, you know, in Soviet times, at least at that time, the [00:49:35] kids were happening. Nobody knew how they were happening, but everybody had [00:49:40] kids and they had the kids very young age. And the kids were burdened [00:49:45] at the same time as the if you have a kid, you get more food stamps, [00:49:50] so you can go get more food. Like you would not not get like, I think meat [00:49:55] stamps unless you had a child. So that was a lot different. [00:50:00] So for all of the kids that are around my age or older, [00:50:05] we were raised, um, differently. So we were raised as [00:50:10] nobody would come up and say, oh darling, I love you. The first time I heard [00:50:15] I Love You from my mom. I think that was to my kid. It was to my kid when he was around [00:50:20] two.

Agne Malisauskiene: I was like.

Agne Malisauskiene: What.

Agne Malisauskiene: Happened?

Payman Langroudi: Do you overcompensate with your own kids now? Like, tell them you love them too [00:50:25] many times.

Agne Malisauskiene: So.

Agne Malisauskiene: They are already numb in.

Agne Malisauskiene: That [00:50:30] kind of.

Agne Malisauskiene: Thing. But it’s very strange. You know, [00:50:35] it’s just it is what it is. That was different times, right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: And [00:50:40] um.

Payman Langroudi: But in those sort of pre Berlin Wall days in the [00:50:45] Soviet times, what was the sort of community situation. Did you I [00:50:50] mean were, but most kids, both parents working and then the kids kind [00:50:55] of being looked after in a, in a, in a, in a situation together.

Agne Malisauskiene: I [00:51:00] was.

Agne Malisauskiene: I was raised like, so first and foremost, um, I was two at [00:51:05] the time we got our independence.

Agne Malisauskiene: And Berlin, etc. so I.

Agne Malisauskiene: Don’t really remember. [00:51:10] I know the stories. Um, I was raised in, uh, student [00:51:15] dormitory till I was nine, so there was like a student family dormitories [00:51:20] that there’s like a corridor, right? Everybody got a room that they. And [00:51:25] it was, they call it privatised. They still had to buy something like a room [00:51:30] in there. But I was raised in that all the parents were, let’s [00:51:35] just say when I was five, all the parents were around 25 [00:51:40] and all the kids were around five. So there’s a corridor party. [00:51:45] All the kids are in one room sleeping on the chairs or somewhere like that if [00:51:50] the parents are working. I was told that they would kind of exchange [00:51:55] between each other, but at a certain time I would be alone [00:52:00] for like an hour or so when I was a baby. Or it’s very interesting. I do not [00:52:05] remember those times because, um, my sister was born when I was five. And [00:52:10] that time I remember because mom was at home because it was completely different system. Then they could stay [00:52:15] with kids and so on. But you could go out outside, play [00:52:20] with your friends for like a half of the day.

Agne Malisauskiene: And no one would know anything.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: And then [00:52:25] they would just yell.

Agne Malisauskiene: Somebody or something.

Payman Langroudi: Right. Also a beautiful thing.

Agne Malisauskiene: That was fine.

Agne Malisauskiene: And it was [00:52:30] safe somehow. Now it doesn’t.

Agne Malisauskiene: Seem like that.

Payman Langroudi: So then your your kids.

Payman Langroudi: Now what happens when [00:52:35] you’re away? Nannies and all that.

Agne Malisauskiene: Um, my mom mostly, um, [00:52:40] she’s with kids. She loves them. They’re more like caring. [00:52:45] They’re the ones that would hug and then they would sit on the lap because they’re like, they’re raised by us. [00:52:50] They’re cuties. And, and then and she likes to be [00:52:55] around them. So she’s mostly there. Then my mom as well, my sister, [00:53:00] we, we’ve.

Agne Malisauskiene: Left two kids.

Agne Malisauskiene: Sister. And then we have [00:53:05] a nanny who lives two houses away. So she would come in whenever we need her. [00:53:10]

Payman Langroudi: So tell me a typical week, a typical week where you’re teaching abroad.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, so.

Payman Langroudi: What are we.

Payman Langroudi: Talking? [00:53:15]

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s always the same. Every week is the same for me.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Agne Malisauskiene: Well, except for sometimes I don’t [00:53:20] fly. So it’s Monday. Tuesday? Wednesday. I go to the clinic. Um. I drive the older one [00:53:25] to school. I go to the clinic. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Is it your own?

Agne Malisauskiene: No.

Payman Langroudi: No. [00:53:30]

Payman Langroudi: Your associate.

Agne Malisauskiene: Rent? No, I rent a room.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you rent a room?

Agne Malisauskiene: I rent a room. It’s easier.

Payman Langroudi: Is that with [00:53:35] us?

Agne Malisauskiene: No.

Agne Malisauskiene: Mindaugas has has his own.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yes.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Agne Malisauskiene: He didn’t want me there. [00:53:40] He said we spend too much time together. He said we probably like. We [00:53:45] would not be friends anymore.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: And I said no. He’s like, what if the autoclave breaks?

Agne Malisauskiene: And [00:53:50] I’m like, no.

Payman Langroudi: So Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday you’re working. What? Long hours?

Agne Malisauskiene: No.

Agne Malisauskiene: I work nine [00:53:55] to 3 to 4, something like that.

Payman Langroudi: And then and the kind and the patients [00:54:00] are all what. Referred.

Agne Malisauskiene: Mhm. Or dentists.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Really.

Agne Malisauskiene: Half [00:54:05] of my patients are dentists.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re basically doing anterior direct on everyone.

Agne Malisauskiene: That’s the only thing I do. I have [00:54:10] a hygienist, um, and an assistant. So hygienist is the one who does [00:54:15] hygienes whitening and stuff like that. And I have an assistant who runs the whole [00:54:20] operation.

Payman Langroudi: And the referral base are all these people who’ve come to your courses basically.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Agne Malisauskiene: Um, [00:54:25] so they’re either. No not really. It’s um, people who come to my courses, I encourage [00:54:30] them to do and practice themselves. I get patients from orthodontists [00:54:35] mainly.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, okay. Post author.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: So post ortho most of the time. [00:54:40] And then the and I would like handle the patient and he would do the posteriors. I would do [00:54:45] the interior, something like that. Um so.

Agne Malisauskiene: So that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.

Agne Malisauskiene: Monday.

Agne Malisauskiene: Tuesday, Wednesday, [00:54:50] uh, on Tuesdays after work, I go to work out. On [00:54:55] Wednesdays I go to play paddle.

Payman Langroudi: Uh.

Agne Malisauskiene: Something I suck at, but I’m trying [00:55:00] to get better.

Agne Malisauskiene: You know?

Payman Langroudi: What time do you go to bed? What time do you wake up?

Agne Malisauskiene: We go to bed [00:55:05] around midnight and we wake up 650. But [00:55:10] the thing is that it’s been eight years, eight and a half years since [00:55:15] I have slept through the night. Like for the past eight years, I think I’ve slept through the night [00:55:20] maybe 20 times.

Payman Langroudi: Why?

Agne Malisauskiene: Because they wake up [00:55:25] these boys. They either come in first up till the age of like [00:55:30] four. The older one, up to the age of four, he would scream, Mama! Mama! [00:55:35] Like 2 or 3 times a night, right? So wake up, walk to his room. Go to the [00:55:40] room.

Payman Langroudi: You forget. You forget all of this as you get. As kids get older, you forget.

Agne Malisauskiene: Then [00:55:45] we got a baby.

Payman Langroudi: So that was that.

Agne Malisauskiene: He still. He’s four and a half. [00:55:50]

Payman Langroudi: He still.

Payman Langroudi: So he’s still in that phase?

Agne Malisauskiene: I don’t know if there are nights that nothing [00:55:55] would happen. And then the older one started coming into the room, into the bed. And I [00:56:00] don’t remember what it feels.

Agne Malisauskiene: Like to sleep.

Agne Malisauskiene: And even if they’re not there, I would wake [00:56:05] up and be like.

Payman Langroudi: Alert. Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Especially in the hotels. I don’t sleep well. [00:56:10]

Payman Langroudi: It’s difficult. So so that’s Monday, Wednesday, Thursday.

Agne Malisauskiene: Thursday. So [00:56:15] I either fly or I have a course at home.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:56:20] let’s imagine it’s Copenhagen for the sake of the argument. You you don’t work at [00:56:25] all on a Thursday.

Agne Malisauskiene: No, never.

Agne Malisauskiene: You don’t rent a room. I rent a room Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. [00:56:30]

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah, yeah. So?

Payman Langroudi: So you get to Copenhagen and then you’re teaching Friday, Saturday.

Agne Malisauskiene: Friday.

Agne Malisauskiene: Saturday. Copenhagen [00:56:35] is a place I like because on Saturday I can go back home [00:56:40] after the course.

Agne Malisauskiene: There’s a.

Payman Langroudi: It’s close enough and all.

Agne Malisauskiene: That.

Agne Malisauskiene: There’s a flight. It used [00:56:45] to be 920, now it’s 1055. But then I can be home at two in the morning [00:56:50] or something like that.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s go with you on these trips. No, no, he’s.

Agne Malisauskiene: He.

Agne Malisauskiene: Comes he comes to some [00:56:55] places that he wants to go to. Sometimes we take kids as well. So [00:57:00] um, so then I can spend with them Sundays at home. [00:57:05] There are places that I cannot fly home. So sometimes I’m home, like Sunday [00:57:10] afternoon, and then it’s Monday again. And on the days that I don’t fly [00:57:15] anywhere, which we try to be this, we want this to be that. [00:57:20] I would fly once a month.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Agne Malisauskiene: Now I fly 2 or 3 times and we [00:57:25] always plan on slowing down, but we’ll see.

Payman Langroudi: It’s when it’s two weekends in a row, isn’t it? That’s [00:57:30] when it hurts the most.

Agne Malisauskiene: It is. It’s gonna happen like that now.

Payman Langroudi: Victim [00:57:35] of your own success, right?

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s going to be three weekends [00:57:40] in a row now.

Agne Malisauskiene: And it is.

Payman Langroudi: Your own course. It’s the one and the two, and the three is [00:57:45] what you’re teaching when you go to these places.

Agne Malisauskiene: The one and the two. Yeah, the one and the two. I go and [00:57:50] I teach that, and on top of it, because we make a schedule for hands on quite [00:57:55] in advance, right? So we have that quite in advance. We have these spots that [00:58:00] is going to be Paris. It’s going to be March. Um there’s going to be something else. It’s going to be [00:58:05] I don’t know, Barcelona is October, so we have these places. Then we [00:58:10] schedule that quite in advance. But then there’s going to be situations or invites [00:58:15] or things that I’m going to do in between of that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like some massive [00:58:20] event in America, like you were saying.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Or a minimalist, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: So [00:58:25] these get right in between. And [00:58:30] then if I don’t have any abroad courses, then it would be Thursday [00:58:35] only or Thursday, Friday hands on at home. So then I would have a weekend off.

Payman Langroudi: What about the setup for [00:58:40] instance. You’ve got this event tomorrow.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. We’re bringing up most of it.

Payman Langroudi: The drills.

Agne Malisauskiene: Uh, [00:58:45] no. So, um, if the event in Lithuania, we have um [00:58:50] a total of I think 40 micro motors and, and, and [00:58:55] hand pieces and things like that. Um, in these places. [00:59:00] Micromotors. Um, handpieces curing [00:59:05] units come from the sponsors, so they would bring something [00:59:10] um in there. What we bring I break instrument kits. I bring, [00:59:15] uh, I don’t know, phantom heads.

Payman Langroudi: Are you.

Payman Langroudi: Bring phantom.

Payman Langroudi: Heads.

Agne Malisauskiene: I bring I have travel, [00:59:20] travel, phantom heads. Uh, so I have a travel phantom heads. I have so phantom [00:59:25] heads models. It’s it’s 40 kilos of stuff always travelling. [00:59:30]

Payman Langroudi: So where is that stuff that you send that ahead of time?

Payman Langroudi: Did you.

Agne Malisauskiene: Not hear? You can’t listen [00:59:35] here easily if it’s in the suitcases too.

Payman Langroudi: It’s in the suitcases. Everything [00:59:40] you need is in those suitcases.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s well.

Agne Malisauskiene: Packed. And if uh, if that’s. [00:59:45]

Payman Langroudi: And.

Payman Langroudi: You’re going to set up tomorrow morning. Is that the.

Agne Malisauskiene: Plan? No.

Agne Malisauskiene: In the evening.

Agne Malisauskiene: Uh.

Agne Malisauskiene: We’re alive. Well, at least we try [00:59:50] to get the place.

Payman Langroudi: And you do it yourself.

Agne Malisauskiene: Um, yeah. So now I have. I [00:59:55] learned from you. Now I have help. Uh, Michela Jarosova. [01:00:00] She’s from Czech Republic. We met on Instagram. [01:00:05] Then we met live. Um, she says that we met through Didier.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. [01:00:10] And, um. Oh.

Payman Langroudi: So she comes to some of these to help out.

Agne Malisauskiene: She comes to help [01:00:15] out. She teaches as well. Um, we have together two articles [01:00:20] coming out like now in the International Journal of Aesthetic Dentistry. [01:00:25] Um, she’s a good help and [01:00:30] um, it’s nice. It’s, it’s good to have her.

Payman Langroudi: So then, I mean, I know how tiring [01:00:35] it is. I’m not even the teacher on these courses, but so you set [01:00:40] up next day, now 830 in the morning, people are coming. You teach all day.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. [01:00:45]

Payman Langroudi: Do you always do a social.

Agne Malisauskiene: A little bit of. Yes.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s a good [01:00:50] idea.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s nicer because then.

Agne Malisauskiene: Everybody’s more outside.

Payman Langroudi: Of the classroom.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. And then they’re.

Agne Malisauskiene: More loose the next [01:00:55] day.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Because the next day is usually harder.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: And so [01:01:00] they’re more loose. It’s more of a like I call this a workshop environment. [01:01:05] I make them walk around meaning that, um, if they need any extra [01:01:10] stuff, I make them stand up, go take it and go back because otherwise they get frozen [01:01:15] and, and you know, in place and in the shrimp position or something like that.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:01:20] so then at the end of the two days, you’re destroyed, right?

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, [01:01:25] I don’t know.

Agne Malisauskiene: I think I’m, I’m feeding on their energy.

Agne Malisauskiene: Not destroyed. [01:01:30]

Agne Malisauskiene: You know, what they’re saying is like less energy. They have more energy. I have I [01:01:35] become more loud.

Payman Langroudi: See, that’s the adrenaline again.

Agne Malisauskiene: But I remember [01:01:40] there was a thing that was, um. I was in Copenhagen at the airport after [01:01:45] the after those two days, I come back and I sit there and wait. [01:01:50] And it’s like that silence, you know, when the, the, the, the cortisol goes up [01:01:55] and then everything drops the dopamine dips. And I was just [01:02:00] sitting there and I needed like, you need that dopamine back somehow. And [01:02:05] I’m like, oh, there’s Bang Olufsen, let me go in and I bought a speaker. So, so then my [01:02:10] husband was like, oh, this is why they have these shops because people are tired after. And then [01:02:15] they’re just going to need that. But it is like that. It’s very, um, kind [01:02:20] of a when it’s not, I’m not tired with people when I’m left alone. [01:02:25] This is that the moment that you’re like, oh.

Payman Langroudi: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh. [01:02:30]

Agne Malisauskiene: So that’s.

Agne Malisauskiene: The strangest.

Agne Malisauskiene: One.

Payman Langroudi: And I kind of want to get insight into [01:02:35] by emulation. I mean, I was there at the beginning with the not, [01:02:40] not that I had anything to do with it, but I was watching, I was, I was watching Panos and, and [01:02:45] the guys right at the beginning. Gianfranco, um, how did [01:02:50] you end up getting involved with them?

Agne Malisauskiene: Um.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:02:55] actually, for someone who doesn’t know, just just quickly sum up what what is bio emulation?

Agne Malisauskiene: Bio Malaysian [01:03:00] is the group of dentists dedicated to minimally invasive biomimetic [01:03:05] dentistry. Um.

Payman Langroudi: The kind of very highest end.

Agne Malisauskiene: They [01:03:10] push, they push.

Agne Malisauskiene: The boundaries, push.

Agne Malisauskiene: This is the idea. And, [01:03:15] um, I think that was one event that we were not organising. That was the main [01:03:20] thing. Um, and druskininkai we have this like largest event of [01:03:25] the dental chamber and Javier was there and Mindaugas was there and we [01:03:30] were at the party, I think, and Javi said, would you accept [01:03:35] this if we were to invite you?

Payman Langroudi: Well, it’s nice out of the blue.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. And then [01:03:40] I said yes. And I said, let me think about it. I was like, what? What [01:03:45] man? Uh, but he does that. He’s more like, I’m irrational. I’m [01:03:50] like, this is the moment. It’s okay. And he’s like, let me, let me see. And [01:03:55] I was like, what are you saying? And then by Malaysia, in London, I [01:04:00] came and.

Agne Malisauskiene: It was fun.

Agne Malisauskiene: And I think that do you remember? [01:04:05] You don’t. Oh my God. So we’re standing there talking. Panos goes by. [01:04:10] He says something. And you say, have you met Agnes? [01:04:15] And he says, yes. And he says something like, oh, you’re [01:04:20] doing a lot of stuff in Scandinavia. I follow you, I see. And you’re like, just [01:04:25] put a badge on her. And he’s.

Agne Malisauskiene: Like.

Agne Malisauskiene: We’ll see tomorrow. And he walks [01:04:30] back and I was like, and you were like, just chatting. And I was like, what [01:04:35] does it mean?

Agne Malisauskiene: We’ll see tomorrow.

Payman Langroudi: I like there’s something about him, man.

Agne Malisauskiene: And then this is what they [01:04:40] then this is what they did during the break. They said, and then they invited on the stage. It was like Oscars. [01:04:45] I was like, because they didn’t tell you.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, it was.

Payman Langroudi: A.

Payman Langroudi: Surprise.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. They didn’t tell me. I didn’t know that. [01:04:50]

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Agne Malisauskiene: And it was a surprise.

Payman Langroudi: I love you know what I love about Malaysian events? [01:04:55] That audio visual.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my.

Payman Langroudi: God. I mean, you’ve been you’ve been to so many events. Now where’s [01:05:00] the best place that you’ve seen?

Agne Malisauskiene: It is. It’s everywhere where heavier is.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. [01:05:05] I guess because.

Agne Malisauskiene: Javier is um, you know, he’s computer graphic artist. Yes. And [01:05:10] he’s one of the best. Right.

Payman Langroudi: Very good.

Agne Malisauskiene: And what he does, it’s. Now [01:05:15] did you see how he does the lecture with the 3D glasses now. So you can have a [01:05:20] lecture of his. You need the proper audio visual for that. Right. But he they distribute [01:05:25] distribute um 3D glasses and you can see the animations of the dentinal [01:05:30] tubules already.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful isn’t it. Once it’s in 3D.

Payman Langroudi: Imagine Javier.

Agne Malisauskiene: Is [01:05:35] incredible. Everything is so authentic. He’s not the one who would go and [01:05:40] steal other stuff. He gets copied quite a bit. But you know, it’s [01:05:45] so flattering. I don’t know it just because he’s so good Yes. What he does, [01:05:50] he’s very passionate and he’s like, he’s very geeky kind of a person. And you just ask [01:05:55] him. And then Pandora’s box opens.

Payman Langroudi: Is there a commitment as well? Do you have to do anything? [01:06:00]

Agne Malisauskiene: No.

Payman Langroudi: That’s good.

Agne Malisauskiene: Just give you a badge.

Payman Langroudi: Just a brotherhood. Sisterhood.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:06:05] remember when it was just men back in the day.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s still quite predominantly [01:06:10] men.

Payman Langroudi: Why do you think that is? Like, I was looking at the speakers for the minimalist [01:06:15] at Ministry of Sound. Um, and I didn’t [01:06:20] do it on purpose. I didn’t do it on purpose at all. I didn’t I didn’t think men, women anything. Yeah. But [01:06:25] it’s double it’s double the number of men than it is women.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s always.

Payman Langroudi: Like that. Why?

Agne Malisauskiene: Um, [01:06:30] because of society still and everything. [01:06:35] The idea is just think about it. Right? So now when I’m the one leaving and going [01:06:40] somewhere and mantis is taking care of kids, do you know what everybody thinks? Including [01:06:45] my mom, His mom or.

Agne Malisauskiene: Friends.

Agne Malisauskiene: Everybody [01:06:50] are like, man, what’s going on? [01:06:55] You know, he’s the one who is man.

Payman Langroudi: This is amazing, man.

Payman Langroudi: Cooking and [01:07:00] keeping us nourished.

Agne Malisauskiene: And and he works. We go to sleep. He [01:07:05] still works.

Payman Langroudi: He’s still amazing, man.

Agne Malisauskiene: He is very dedicated. You know, if I didn’t [01:07:10] find him when I was 16.

Payman Langroudi: Was it 16 high school.

Agne Malisauskiene: I met. [01:07:15]

Agne Malisauskiene: Him when.

Payman Langroudi: He came back.

Agne Malisauskiene: Just before I.

Payman Langroudi: Left. Oh, really?

Agne Malisauskiene: So I met him just before I left for [01:07:20] the US. Uh, he would have been, you know, somebody else’s catch.

Agne Malisauskiene: But. [01:07:25]

Payman Langroudi: Okay. I hear what you say about your.

Agne Malisauskiene: You know, it’s [01:07:30] just expected.

Payman Langroudi: But I think there’s there’s something else as well. Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: That there’s also the lack [01:07:35] of ambition. Everybody waits to be inspired. Be an inspiration yourself. That’s [01:07:40] a thing from women.

Agne Malisauskiene: They’re very.

Payman Langroudi: But also lack of speaking up, you know, like, [01:07:45] like I think about it with with staff sometimes, you know, there are some staff who never, ever, ever asked [01:07:50] for a pay rise. Yeah. And then there’s others who always, always, always ask for a pay rise. Yeah. And guess [01:07:55] what.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t get.

Agne Malisauskiene: What you don’t.

Agne Malisauskiene: Ask for. That’s the thing. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But but but women [01:08:00] don’t put themselves forward as much.

Agne Malisauskiene: As.

Agne Malisauskiene: They wait for an invitation.

Agne Malisauskiene: To do [01:08:05] something.

Agne Malisauskiene: They wait for an invitation. That’s the thing. This is. This is true. They wait for an invitation. Um, [01:08:10] nobody’s gonna invite you to anything. Um, if you want to. Do I get these [01:08:15] questions all the time? How can I do more anterior composites? Just go tell your boss [01:08:20] and your colleagues that you want to do anterior composites. They’re like, no, what will happen? What [01:08:25] happened when I did that? Do you know that was like, I don’t know, it was eight, eight years [01:08:30] ago that I came into the practice and I said, let’s have a meeting. We need a [01:08:35] team meeting and so on. And these were quite regular. So we had a team meeting and I said, [01:08:40] I decided that’s the only thing I’m going to do is going to be anterior composites. I will not do [01:08:45] anything else. And I expected this to be like, no. But [01:08:50] then my colleague, she was like, yes. Can I do only posterior composites? I don’t do [01:08:55] anything else. And then suddenly everything became so specialised.

Payman Langroudi: It’s actually a brilliant [01:09:00] way of running a practice.

Agne Malisauskiene: And that everything.

Agne Malisauskiene: Became specialised.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Everybody got so excited.

Agne Malisauskiene: And [01:09:05] everybody doing.

Payman Langroudi: The stuff they love doing. There’s internal referral. It’s a beautiful thing really. [01:09:10]

Agne Malisauskiene: And then you’re doomed to get good because you’re doing the same thing over and over and over. Oh, because [01:09:15] you’re repeating yourself. You get to see patterns and everything [01:09:20] goes in patterns. Dentistry is very mathematical, very engineer like, [01:09:25] right? So you, if you take apart the computer the first time you, you’re going to put [01:09:30] it back, you’re gonna have like five things on the desk, right? You [01:09:35] didn’t know where to put that. If you’re going to do that the second time, you’re just [01:09:40] gonna get better and better and better.

Payman Langroudi: Something tells me, though, that you’re very, very strong on the pattern [01:09:45] recognition.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Bone in your brain. There’s [01:09:50] some people are like that. Some people are strong on one thing. Some people are strong on another thing.

Agne Malisauskiene: I always say that.

Agne Malisauskiene: In dentistry. [01:09:55]

Payman Langroudi: That talking to you like you’re really into this notion of pattern, pattern recognition.

Agne Malisauskiene: It.

Agne Malisauskiene: It [01:10:00] is like this. I call this connect the dots.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Agne Malisauskiene: This is the idea that, you know, [01:10:05] I think that was Mindaugas idea actually. Connect the dots. This is his we were going to a course [01:10:10] in Denmark and we had to name it somehow. And I said [01:10:15] we need like a catchy phrase, right? We need a catchy phrase that will represent [01:10:20] the way we do dentistry. And we were like talking just like this, [01:10:25] this, this, this thing was going on. And he’s like, I think his kids were like painting [01:10:30] by the door thing. They’re drawing by the door thing. And he said, no, it’s connect the dots because this is what we [01:10:35] look at the tooth, we see what’s missing and we just add that on and we connect it. So this is [01:10:40] the thing now. It says every lecture of mine has the connect the dots thing. And it was [01:10:45] his idea actually. So now it’s connect the dots as patterns. Everything goes in patterns. Um [01:10:50] if you have a patient that’s always chipping, it’s, it’s not the compass, [01:10:55] it’s probably you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: You, you need to understand function [01:11:00] many more things, right? But then everything comes in patterns and um.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:11:05] was the unlock for you regarding, I mean, it’s a very different thing being a very good dentist [01:11:10] and being a very good teacher.

Agne Malisauskiene: It is completely.

Payman Langroudi: What does it unlock for you in the teaching space? [01:11:15] Because when I watched you teach, I mean, it was I, it was in Lithuania, but I could just [01:11:20] see your passion in the what, what was the moment or the, the, the kind of the [01:11:25] skill or the, I don’t know, understanding of what it is to be a good teacher, a [01:11:30] great teacher. What’s the difference in a great teacher and a good teacher? That’s that. There we go.

Agne Malisauskiene: You need to convey [01:11:35] the message so everybody understands meaning I always say [01:11:40] that, you know, any course is valuable. Any, any course that you [01:11:45] go on to is valuable as long as you’re valuable in that course. [01:11:50] If you stay put, if you listen, if you’re good, right? The [01:11:55] new information that you’re going to hear, maybe it’s going to be 5%, maybe 1%, [01:12:00] and you need to spend that time to find that information yourself, right? [01:12:05] If you come in and everything is new for me, for you, or like [01:12:10] 80% is new for you, either you’re not qualified to get to that course or somebody [01:12:15] is talking nonsense because there may be there, there are plenty of, um, you know, Dental [01:12:20] educators and educators who cannot do the work themselves. They [01:12:25] can be very good teachers at the same time, because they have this idea in their head, but somehow [01:12:30] doesn’t translate it into their hands, or maybe one thing or they’re just full [01:12:35] of shit.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, there is that. But I think, you know, there’s an element of inspiration. [01:12:40] It’s a funny thing. Yeah. Because I think I think of teaching [01:12:45] dentistry anyway as breadth and depth.

Agne Malisauskiene: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And [01:12:50] it’s a funny situation, you know, like I’m telling you at the minimalist, you can have 17 minutes [01:12:55] to talk. Right. There’s not much time. You can’t go very deep on it. But [01:13:00] but some people can inspire the audience to pay attention [01:13:05] and listen. And some people can’t. And some people are masters at it. [01:13:10] And some people are, to your point, some people are. That’s their absolute skill. Yeah. [01:13:15] And you know, what they say might be rubbish, but they’ve just they’re just showmen, you know. They know [01:13:20] how to, you know, command an audience.

Agne Malisauskiene: Of course.

Payman Langroudi: Um but, but it’s [01:13:25] a, it’s a certain kind of skill where you have to mix depth, breadth, inspiration, [01:13:30] practicality, you know, inspiration, practicality on two different levels. You know, sometimes [01:13:35] you get to buy a Malaysian. You look at what the guy has done or what he’s saying. Anything that has nothing to do with what I’m going [01:13:40] to do on Monday morning. Right?

Agne Malisauskiene: Why not?

Payman Langroudi: I remember Gianfranco talking about this layer he was [01:13:45] putting in. That was the a d j layer.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh dear God.

Payman Langroudi: Like you had the dentyne. [01:13:50] You had the enamel. But there was this other layer of, of basically see through composite that he was putting. [01:13:55] That was the a DJI looked at it, I was like, come on, man.

Agne Malisauskiene: But [01:14:00] but this is true. They’re pushing the boundaries.

Payman Langroudi: That’s their role. But this is what I’m saying about in [01:14:05] teaching, you have to mix all of those. You have to inspire people. You have to be practical.

Agne Malisauskiene: You have to inspire and [01:14:10] be practical.

Agne Malisauskiene: For me, it’s empower.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Agne Malisauskiene: Okay. So you have to give them [01:14:15] tools in the ideas. And what I say the best thing is to teach [01:14:20] how to use their eyes so the brain would [01:14:25] comprehend what the hands have to do.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Agne Malisauskiene: And this is the hardest [01:14:30] thing, right? You can show them the most beautiful pictures you [01:14:35] can Photoshop to whatever you want. Copy paste, whatever thing.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:14:40] there’s plenty of that, by the way. Plenty of photoshopping.

Agne Malisauskiene: Going on.

Payman Langroudi: In our [01:14:45] world there, isn’t it?

Agne Malisauskiene: There’s a lot of fake things, but, [01:14:50] you know. Uh, anyways, but what you need to [01:14:55] teach them is how to see that we’re like, [01:15:00] what I teach in my courses is where to look from direction [01:15:05] of you sometimes matters much more direction [01:15:10] of you because we’re used to our patients on our laps, right? If we’re very [01:15:15] ergonomic, what do we see? We see nothing. We don’t see something. We see opposite [01:15:20] view first and foremost, and then we don’t see the three dimensional [01:15:25] view of the tooth. We lose everything when the tooth dehydrates.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: And [01:15:30] we lose the all perception of volume. Then we have our loop lights and [01:15:35] then their orange filters, and then we lose all the possible depth. [01:15:40] So the volume control gets impossible unless I [01:15:45] show them what to look for and where, what side to look from. How, how [01:15:50] what I see. And then recently what I started. So I finished the Instagram post on the plane. [01:15:55] I’m quite efficient. So I try to, you know, spend time doing things. Um, [01:16:00] I started recording everything. I have a loop camera. [01:16:05] It’s not fantastic. It’s as good as it gets at this point. But I have a loop camera. I [01:16:10] record everything that means I will give them the actual view [01:16:15] that I’m seeing, right? Not random camera facing the facial view. [01:16:20]

Agne Malisauskiene: Very good point. It’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Very good.

Agne Malisauskiene: Point, isn’t it?

Agne Malisauskiene: Because it’s very important.

Agne Malisauskiene: This is super.

Agne Malisauskiene: Important. So [01:16:25] everybody would understand what I see and why I see it? And then once I have [01:16:30] these shadows, right, the dense shadowing, they’re usually sitting next to me. And then [01:16:35] they kind of like cure and everything else. There’s also now a computer open [01:16:40] that they can see what I’m seeing through my loops. They have a little bit bigger view because [01:16:45] my loops are six and there’s like three and a half or something like that, but they still see the [01:16:50] idea of it, like what I’m seeing because from their perspective, [01:16:55] it’s also a different thing.

Payman Langroudi: You know, that thing where he takes the picture of [01:17:00] the contralateral, he flips.

Agne Malisauskiene: It. Yeah, yeah, I.

Agne Malisauskiene: Do that.

Agne Malisauskiene: As well.

Payman Langroudi: And the [01:17:05] flipping, I used to think, you know, come on, man, how difficult can it be? But it’s absolutely true. Yeah. That’s an [01:17:10] extra step your brain doesn’t have to do now. Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: And then.

Agne Malisauskiene: You can focus on and I increase the. [01:17:15]

Agne Malisauskiene: The, I increase.

Agne Malisauskiene: The contrast.

Agne Malisauskiene: The chroma everything.

Agne Malisauskiene: And I can mimic that much better.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:17:20] And so it’s so interesting. It’s so interesting. The first time I saw his work, I thought he’s [01:17:25] a genius. Yeah. I called up the guys in America. I said, I found this child genius. It’s amazing.

Agne Malisauskiene: Then [01:17:30] I know.

Agne Malisauskiene: The guy in America.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. That’s right. That’s right.

Payman Langroudi: But then. But [01:17:35] then when later on I found out that is what he was doing here. It [01:17:40] makes it like no one is a bloody genius.

Payman Langroudi: Dear God.

Payman Langroudi: It’s like you said, it’s repetition. [01:17:45] It’s pattern recognition.

Agne Malisauskiene: Dentistry is easy, right? [01:17:50]

Agne Malisauskiene: We we will still make mistakes, whatever we do. Right?

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: The [01:17:55] idea is dentistry is actually easy, if you really think about it. If you [01:18:00] put the brain into it, dentistry is easy. It’s we’re copying something. And [01:18:05] if we make our life easier, not harder, we’re gonna get there faster. [01:18:10]

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: And it’s just that that’s the thing, I guess.

Payman Langroudi: You know what annoys me sometimes? [01:18:15] Yeah. It’s the culture of hacking. Like [01:18:20] cutting, cutting corners.

Agne Malisauskiene: All the great inventions Are here [01:18:25] only because someone was too lazy to do a difficult job.

Payman Langroudi: No, but it pisses me off a little bit. [01:18:30]

Payman Langroudi: Pisses me off that it’s almost a culture of amongst dentists, of how do [01:18:35] I miss steps? You know, they want to do things quicker and they want to learn [01:18:40] hacks. By the way, hacks are great. It’s a it’s a great thing to have a hack. But sometimes [01:18:45] and I have people sit in front of me, absolute experts in their field like you are. Yeah. Sometimes [01:18:50] the key to being an expert is just not hacking, but doing the goddamn steps, [01:18:55] doing every step correctly, you know, is what makes an [01:19:00] expert. You know.

Agne Malisauskiene: This is true, but, um, just give them [01:19:05] tools to do that. But tools, I mean, just maybe looking from different angle. Yeah, [01:19:10] yeah. Seeing from a different perspective, actually taking picture of your own work.

Agne Malisauskiene: Mhm. [01:19:15] To see what you did.

Payman Langroudi: Learn the most.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh my God. Yes. The best investment you [01:19:20] can have is just buying a good camera and a good lens, obviously. [01:19:25]

Payman Langroudi: Where did you learn photography?

Agne Malisauskiene: I did take like these online courses [01:19:30] of like pop a pop up I [01:19:35] did, and then everything else went through kind of a practice. I’m [01:19:40] still not really an expert because I know how to do my own photography [01:19:45] that, you know, somebody told me that I know how to show [01:19:50] what I’m showing, right? How to make a picture of something that [01:19:55] I want to show. So this is this, this is a thing. But then if you told me [01:20:00] to take a picture of a molar, I don’t know, I try I cannot work.

Agne Malisauskiene: With what you do. [01:20:05]

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. It’s just again, it’s practice.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind if I ask you [01:20:10] what’s the best lecture you’ve been to?

Agne Malisauskiene: Everybody [01:20:15] is very good. Obviously you have to attend every and every one. But then Didier [01:20:20] the second time. Because the first time. First time I was too [01:20:25] young and too cocky and too everything to actually pay attention. And [01:20:30] I did pay attention, I assume. But I was jet lagged like crazy because [01:20:35] I hacked him down. Well, my my friend traced him down. We went [01:20:40] to his, uh, three day course in Singapore.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Agne Malisauskiene: Because it was much cheaper [01:20:45] than in Geneva.

Payman Langroudi: Including the flight was.

Agne Malisauskiene: Cheaper, including.

Agne Malisauskiene: The.

Agne Malisauskiene: Flight.

Agne Malisauskiene: And [01:20:50] hotels and food.

Agne Malisauskiene: And everything.

Payman Langroudi: What a hack.

Agne Malisauskiene: Because in the room, they didn’t have [01:20:55] the 16 people. They had 40 something.

Payman Langroudi: Uh.

Agne Malisauskiene: But [01:21:00] the first time I think I got quite a bit, but the second time [01:21:05] when I got her my home, I was sitting there, I was like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my [01:21:10] God, oh my God, oh my God.

Agne Malisauskiene: And like.

Payman Langroudi: You know, repetition is huge, right? Repetition is huge. Even if it wasn’t [01:21:15] the same course. Like your mindset is different that the I still learn know that many smile makeover. I still [01:21:20] learn the. And I must have seen it a hundred times.

Agne Malisauskiene: But the thing.

Agne Malisauskiene: Is that we all of us. Um, [01:21:25] when when the teachers, the educators, we add on something.

Agne Malisauskiene: Because [01:21:30] we, if we, if we.

Agne Malisauskiene: Actually practice dentistry, right?

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: If [01:21:35] we practice dentistry. And I stress that if we practice dentistry, then we have what to [01:21:40] bring to the table every single time. And this is the thing, if you did a course three years ago, [01:21:45] it might be smart. If you liked it, that means you’re gonna like it way more now.

Agne Malisauskiene: Mhm. [01:21:50]

Agne Malisauskiene: And, um, because the, your educator is way more experienced [01:21:55] because in those three years that you did something, they did many, many, [01:22:00] many more of that. Maybe they’ll learn something about different, I don’t know, instruments, something else, [01:22:05] anything, anything. Just the way they do things. Maybe they simplify certain [01:22:10] steps into something, not cutting corners, but like simplifying something. [01:22:15] Maybe you can instead of having, I don’t know. Do you remember when it was [01:22:20] like 20 layers of of the tooth? Do we really need that? [01:22:25] You know how hard that is. And volume control becomes a super mess. And [01:22:30] the negative space and the bubbles and everything else. It’s not the [01:22:35] time for that anymore, right?

Payman Langroudi: No. But at the time, it was revolutionary. I remember enamel [01:22:40] was the the stuff. Was that back.

Agne Malisauskiene: Then. [01:22:45] Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what about what comes to mind if I ask you what is your [01:22:50] biggest clinical mistake?

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, dear. Uh, [01:22:55] you know, I don’t place implants, so my implants don’t break. I [01:23:00] don’t place implants into the nerve. I, I.

Agne Malisauskiene: It.

Payman Langroudi: Could be a management error. Like [01:23:05] a patient error.

Agne Malisauskiene: No.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, I just remembered. [01:23:10]

Payman Langroudi: It’s so funny when you ask this question, suddenly the silence happens [01:23:15] and then suddenly this.

Agne Malisauskiene: I still have the picture of that patient [01:23:20] when I talk about the evolution of my own dentistry. Because you need to humble yourself, [01:23:25] otherwise you don’t understand what’s going on. So that was years ago. I thought [01:23:30] that I’m doing great dentistry, right? And I started doing a lot of those composite [01:23:35] bondings. And I won this competition in Lithuania in 2017. I [01:23:40] won the competition that was life patient. And, uh, I want [01:23:45] it. And after that, a lot of patients get flooded, like flooded me and, and [01:23:50] had this patient with crooked teeth, two centrals. And, [01:23:55] um, she was getting ready for a wedding. She was very young, I would say 25 or something [01:24:00] like that. And she wanted me to straighten the teeth with composite, and [01:24:05] I needed to shave off a little bit of a tooth. I did that, I, and [01:24:10] I did, I shaved off, I don’t know, I cut it into dentine, of course, and I did [01:24:15] two four composite veneers or something like that. She came back for a recall [01:24:20] and I saw some brownish area underlining the, the the composite. [01:24:25] So because I was working all the time, so many like crazy hours, right? [01:24:30] I did forget and I didn’t have pictures.

Agne Malisauskiene: I did forget how much [01:24:35] did I shave off. So I was trying to remove that. And I see it’s still brownish brownish, brownish up [01:24:40] until the point that I exposed the pulp. Trust [01:24:45] me, I was all sweaty. I didn’t know what to do. Vital pulp therapy at the [01:24:50] time was not a thing. I had no clue. Um. I knew there was [01:24:55] MTA somewhere, but I was afraid to ask. So [01:25:00] I put some kind of a liner, which is the glass [01:25:05] ionomer and I covered that with some opaque composite. I did etch bond [01:25:10] and whatever. And I didn’t tell anything to the patient. I [01:25:15] could not sleep for three days. Maybe I didn’t tell anyone. I [01:25:20] called in the patient for a recall a week later. Two [01:25:25] weeks later. A month later. Um, before wedding. [01:25:30] I called her in. A year later. Two years later. Three years later. She [01:25:35] was young and healthy. It was perfectly fine. X-rays, [01:25:40] everything. It’s perfectly fine. But that was. [01:25:45] And then I promised myself. I will never, ever, ever [01:25:50] do this again.

Payman Langroudi: Which bit? Which bit won’t.

Payman Langroudi: You do [01:25:55] again?

Agne Malisauskiene: I would not cut the tooth up to the pulp.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:26:00] about the bit about not telling the patient?

Agne Malisauskiene: Ah.

Agne Malisauskiene: I [01:26:05] think it was better not to tell her, because if I told her, then [01:26:10] something would have happened. Because you know how they say maybe it’s gonna hurt, so you just wait [01:26:15] for it to hurt? Yeah, that’s the thing. It’s, I don’t know. Um, so I just promised [01:26:20] myself that I would never shave off the tooth for the matter of it looking [01:26:25] better.

Payman Langroudi: I love your openness on this subject. That’s excellent. Excellent.

Agne Malisauskiene: Because it is what it is, man. [01:26:30]

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your favourite resource book website podcast [01:26:35] I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my god. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: For you. Instagram page. [01:26:40]

Agne Malisauskiene: Instagram obviously.

Agne Malisauskiene: Which page like what are the.

Payman Langroudi: Where’d [01:26:45] you go?

Agne Malisauskiene: I don’t know anything and everything. I don’t know. Um, probably [01:26:50] the, the idea is the best book ever written on anterior composites [01:26:55] is layers two.

Agne Malisauskiene: There’s two.

Agne Malisauskiene: Um, and a salad. I always say, um, [01:27:00] the woman’s name, so it’s by the Anna salad and colleagues.

Agne Malisauskiene: Uh, [01:27:05] At because.

Agne Malisauskiene: I remember I was teaching this, [01:27:10] I had this, I’ve never read layers.

Payman Langroudi: I have layers, I’ve never looked at layers. [01:27:15]

Agne Malisauskiene: Two, I have to.

Agne Malisauskiene: Take a take a look at one thing. And I thought I [01:27:20] invented something. So I said, bevel or not, bevel depends [01:27:25] on the line angles. If you cross the line angle, that means you’re on the buccal surface. If your [01:27:30] prep of class three right crosses the line angle, you need to bevel that. If [01:27:35] you don’t cross, you don’t need to bevel. Right? I thought this [01:27:40] is my idea. So I was teaching this for like six years up to the point that layers [01:27:45] two came out and I bought it, I pre-ordered it, I got the book and I was reading it and I was like, I [01:27:50] opened the page. And this literally, this is what’s written with the, with [01:27:55] the images on probably keynote like I did, they look very [01:28:00] alike. And I was like, oh, and then I took a picture and I sent it to Mindaugas [01:28:05] And I said, what? And he says, do you know what this means? [01:28:10] And I said, yes. Great minds think alike.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, exactly.

Agne Malisauskiene: Because I’m pretty.

Agne Malisauskiene: Sure [01:28:15] it’s supposed to be on.

Payman Langroudi: You’re saying in the in the proximal.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You no longer need to bevel.

Agne Malisauskiene: No [01:28:20] I don’t unless yeah. Sometimes.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes if you don’t, you end up. It’s [01:28:25] not it’s not as obvious. But you see this kind of weird shadow if you don’t.

Agne Malisauskiene: Uh.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:28:30] hear you, I hear you.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s interproximal. That’s usually quite fine, but you have to understand [01:28:35] the, the width of what you’re covering, [01:28:40] right? So, uh, what I would say they maybe you need a little bit more opacity [01:28:45] in the shadows. Gone.

Agne Malisauskiene: True. That’s true.

Agne Malisauskiene: The thing is, what you see is the enamel. Because [01:28:50] enamel is the evil. If you have dentine, it’s very easy. Right? This [01:28:55] is why composite veneer is easy, because this is the actual composite veneer where you have nothing, [01:29:00] right? You have healthy tooth.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Porcelain veneer when you have all same [01:29:05] coloured aligned teeth is easy because this is the moment that you actually [01:29:10] have the blank canvas. Usually I don’t have blank canvas. What? I have a blank deep hole and [01:29:15] I need to work around that, right? So if you have a blank canvas, it’s [01:29:20] easy.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so interesting how we’re not taught in I don’t know you about you, but I wasn’t [01:29:25] taught a single word in dental school about Opacus. No, I [01:29:30] mean, but it may be the most important thing in a composite.

Agne Malisauskiene: Opacity is.

Agne Malisauskiene: The [01:29:35] most.

Payman Langroudi: You know, pictures. I mean, we just composite there is there was there was nothing about opaque [01:29:40] composite, not opaque composite. You know, it’s, I think when I don’t know, I haven’t been a dentist for a long [01:29:45] time, but when I was a dentist, almost every single composite, anterior composite and opaque [01:29:50] was used somewhere, you know, like, yeah, why? Why were we taught? [01:29:55]

Agne Malisauskiene: I really don’t know how we, I don’t I.

Agne Malisauskiene: Really don’t remember. [01:30:00]

Agne Malisauskiene: How we were taught anterior composites, I don’t remember. I don’t remember doing [01:30:05] them at all in uni. Like nobody.

Agne Malisauskiene: Would.

Agne Malisauskiene: Count. They just cavities you had like [01:30:10] it’s usually posterior contact that you keep blues or I [01:30:15] don’t know, overhang or whatever thing. It’s just.

Agne Malisauskiene: Unfortunately. [01:30:20]

Payman Langroudi: We’ve come to the end of our time. I could talk, I could talk for so long with you. Um, but I [01:30:25] gotta be somewhere. So I’m going to end with the usual question, which is [01:30:30] a fantasy dinner party. Three guests.

Agne Malisauskiene: I’ve had.

Agne Malisauskiene: That.

Payman Langroudi: Dead [01:30:35] or alive.

Agne Malisauskiene: I had if we were talking about dentists, I’ve had that already.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you met your heroes. [01:30:40]

Agne Malisauskiene: Yes. I’m so happy. I’ve.

Agne Malisauskiene: Who was it?

Agne Malisauskiene: I’ve eaten with all of them. [01:30:45] Uh, Newton. Paul. Didier.

Agne Malisauskiene: Pascal.

Agne Malisauskiene: Uh, Pascal. No, I haven’t [01:30:50] eaten with that, man. How do I get to that? Oh, maybe.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s gonna be that. [01:30:55] Yes.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah, to buy a Malaysian thing as well.

Agne Malisauskiene: Um, [01:31:00] what.

Payman Langroudi: About outside of dentistry? Like any three people.

Agne Malisauskiene: Okay, so [01:31:05] that would be Steve Bartlett, the CEO guy.

Payman Langroudi: Do you like it.

Payman Langroudi: That.

Agne Malisauskiene: Much? Uh, [01:31:10] amazing.

Agne Malisauskiene: I have the idea.

Agne Malisauskiene: Listen to this.

Agne Malisauskiene: So, Steve Bartlett, the second would be. [01:31:15]

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh.

Agne Malisauskiene: Okay. That would be, uh, I don’t remember the [01:31:20] name, but the, the owner, the of Nvidia.

Payman Langroudi: Nvidia.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, [01:31:25] I saw this.

Agne Malisauskiene: I saw this reel when he was like, somebody was talking to him about, um, [01:31:30] when you work, you work like, do you have what’s the balance? He’s like, what, what [01:31:35] balance? What what what? He said, no, I work. If I don’t work, I think about [01:31:40] work. I was like, man, I’m buying your stocks.

Payman Langroudi: Have you seen that clip where he says, [01:31:45] um, if I knew what I know now at the beginning of Nvidia, [01:31:50] I definitely 100% wouldn’t do it.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh really? That is going to work.

Payman Langroudi: Because it was that much [01:31:55] pain getting to. And you think the guy who’s made the world’s largest company is saying [01:32:00] you wouldn’t do it if he knew how much pain he went through? He’s such a wicked guy. I [01:32:05] like him a lot.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: I bought Nvidia stocks and that’s the only in my portfolio that’s going up, not [01:32:10] down. So and the.

Agne Malisauskiene: Third.

Agne Malisauskiene: Person would be you.

Agne Malisauskiene: Me?

Agne Malisauskiene: You know.

Agne Malisauskiene: Why. [01:32:15]

Agne Malisauskiene: Because you would ask them questions and I can chill. You know that’s [01:32:20] the thing.

Agne Malisauskiene: I would just.

Agne Malisauskiene: Sit there and enjoy. You know, I could eat and enjoy and [01:32:25] you would ask them questions.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Thank you.

Agne Malisauskiene: Thank you for having me.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, [01:32:30] guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank [01:32:35] you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what [01:32:40] our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out [01:32:45] of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend [01:32:50] who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

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