Month: September 2026

Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] enlightened Online training.com to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time. Whitening Underwhelms try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where [00:00:30] you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and [00:00:40] Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Catherine [00:00:45] Bell onto the podcast. Catherine is a dentist with a very interesting backstory, [00:00:50] um, a general practitioner from Chippenham with [00:00:55] a massive interest in facial aesthetics, um, part of the Colosseum [00:01:00] group, the practices and internally a key opinion leader for facial aesthetics. [00:01:05] I’m really interested in getting into that. Um, Catherine’s also been invited to [00:01:10] women in DSO conferences, will be at Dental forum, interested in the whole question [00:01:15] of women in business and in dentistry. Lovely to have you.

Kathryn Bell: Oh, thank you [00:01:20] so much for having me. I’m really grateful to be here and have the opportunity to chat with you. [00:01:25]

Payman Langroudi: Well, it’s great that you’ve come all this way. It’s been a long time coming because you sent me a message.

Kathryn Bell: I did.

Payman Langroudi: On [00:01:30] the Dental Leaders Instagram, which is woefully [00:01:35] not looked after, and I missed it completely. And [00:01:40] then I got back to you and you’ve driven all the way. So it’s it’s really nice to have you.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. No worries.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:01:45] let’s start with that story of your brain tumour.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:01:50] old were.

Kathryn Bell: You? 17. I was, um, I was six [00:01:55] months past my 17th birthday And flew out to [00:02:00] America, which is where the kind of story all unfolded. It [00:02:05] was quite a chance occurrence, actually, that I happened to be [00:02:10] where I was at the time, that it was discovered. I’d had headaches for well [00:02:15] over a year in advance, and I’d been referred to specialists [00:02:20] for investigations. And one specialist had told me that I had chronic [00:02:25] sinusitis, and another told me that I was a lazy teenager and needed more exercise. [00:02:30] Um, but my mum had never given up and she’d actually said because I was at [00:02:35] the point where I was waking up every morning, um, and I was waking up with an excruciating [00:02:40] headache and I had to take 800mg of ibuprofen [00:02:45] half an hour before I was able to get out of bed. Because if I didn’t, I stood up and like, my [00:02:50] vision blacked in. And I, you know, my head felt like it was going to explode. So that was [00:02:55] just my, my daily routine at the age of 17 to to be able to to go about my day. But, [00:03:00] you know, it didn’t stop me from living my life as a 17 year old. Um, [00:03:05] I distinctly remember my 17th birthday, um, as a typical 17 year [00:03:10] old, kind of snuck into a club with a friend, um, and blacked out.

Kathryn Bell: I [00:03:15] was actually at the bar. Um, I really wanted a glass of water. I was just super thirsty. I blacked out at the bar, [00:03:20] and I remember waking up and people were asking my friend, you know, what had I taken? She’s like, [00:03:25] she hasn’t taken anything. She’s she hasn’t actually had any alcohol either. Um, and so I think that was [00:03:30] probably the first time where it was a, [00:03:35] well, I became aware of how serious it was. Um, and obviously, you [00:03:40] know, I didn’t tell my parents that I’d passed out in a club on my 17th birthday. They didn’t know I was there. [00:03:45] Um, and it was an April Fools Day when we flew out to America. [00:03:50] It was a school exchange trip. So I was going without my parents. There was, [00:03:55] I can’t remember. There was 6 or 7 of us all from the same school, and we’d been paired with, [00:04:00] um, students from a high school in Louisville, Kentucky. Um, [00:04:05] and the second day that we were there, I was in like a very minor [00:04:10] car crash. So, um, I was with Tara, my exchange [00:04:15] partner, and we’d pulled out of the, the school onto the road outside and the road was [00:04:20] slightly wet because it had been raining and the car behind us just didn’t stop in time.

Kathryn Bell: Uh, [00:04:25] just shunted into the back of us enough force that we kind of went into the car in front, but [00:04:30] it wasn’t massive. The car. There was no real damage to the cars. Um, [00:04:35] but it was enough to be the trigger for, um, [00:04:40] the discovery of the brain tumour, because I think it was about 5 or 6 days later [00:04:45] and I woke up, um, in the early hours of the morning in [00:04:50] the house of this family that I’d known for less than a week. And I had like, this [00:04:55] black dot. It was like a void in my vision. Yeah. So [00:05:00] it’s literally like a like a black hole in my vision. Yeah. And my left arm was, was really [00:05:05] heavy. Like I couldn’t get it to move properly. And obviously I was 17 and I [00:05:10] was lying in bed going, I don’t feel well, but it’s like silly o’clock in the morning [00:05:15] and I can’t wake this family up. I don’t I don’t know them. And [00:05:20] in the end, I kind of had this internal argument and I was like, no, I just, you know, [00:05:25] they’ll get me some painkillers and I’ll be back to bed. It’ll be fine. So I kind of [00:05:30] stumbled down the hallway and knocked on their bedroom door.

Kathryn Bell: And I [00:05:35] remember Carolyn’s face. She was the mum of the family. She literally took one look at me [00:05:40] and turned to her husband and said, you need to take her to the ER. It was like [00:05:45] she said, I was like a grey colour, but my my cheeks were flushed red and [00:05:50] um and so they kind of sent me back to bed whilst they made arrangements [00:05:55] of, you know, because they had their lives to live. They were meant to be going to work that day. [00:06:00] And so they had to plan their day to get me down to the hospital. And [00:06:05] also because my parents weren’t with me, my legal [00:06:10] guardian was actually the teacher who’d come with us. So they then got a call [00:06:15] at 4:00 in the morning or whatever time it was. Um, and we had to go and pick her up on [00:06:20] the way to the hospital. Um, and so we arrived at Norton [00:06:25] Hospital in Louisville. And if you Google that hospital, it’s, [00:06:30] I mean, even to this day, I still kind of get chills thinking about this, but it is one of [00:06:35] the leading neurosurgical institutes in America. And I do wonder [00:06:40] if it wasn’t there that I’d presented at, would I actually [00:06:45] be here today? So I kind of arrived and, um, you [00:06:50] know, they, they admitted me and took me for a CT scan, and I was [00:06:55] very much in and out of it at this point.

Kathryn Bell: I don’t remember a vast amount. I do remember [00:07:00] being really agitated by the nurses asking me questions like, what’s your date of [00:07:05] birth? Because I couldn’t remember the answer. What I do remember is, um, [00:07:10] one of the doctors pulling up his chair close to the bed where I was lying [00:07:15] and saying, Katherine, I need you to open your eyes. [00:07:20] I was very reluctant to open my eyes because I was quite sensitive to light at this point. Um, [00:07:25] and he shone a light in my eyes just to check my, my pupil reaction. And he [00:07:30] said, Katherine, you’ve got a brain tumour and it’s caused [00:07:35] a brain haemorrhage. And that’s kind of the last thing that I remember for a few days. [00:07:40] But at the time, you know, people always think that when I, when I was [00:07:45] told that, you know, what was my reaction and my first reaction. I [00:07:50] mean, I wasn’t really with it, but my first reaction was very much, oh, that makes sense, because [00:07:55] it just explained all of those headaches, the blacking out on my 17th birthday [00:08:00] and the kind of, you know, my vision closing in in the mornings. It just [00:08:05] made complete sense.

Payman Langroudi: How come it was so misdiagnosed before that? Did they not take a [00:08:10] scan?

Kathryn Bell: No, I’d never had a scan.

Payman Langroudi: Never had a scan.

Kathryn Bell: Never had a scan? No. And and [00:08:15] I’d seen at least two neurologists. My GP, bless him. He hadn’t [00:08:20] given up. He was he was still trying like he. He was the one that prescribed me the ibuprofen. [00:08:25] He’d tried acupuncture in case it was like cervicogenic headaches. Um, [00:08:30] and like he was he, you know, I think he was kind of just at the point where he’s like, I don’t know, I don’t know where [00:08:35] else to send you. You’ve seen two neurologists. Um, but no, but then this was [00:08:40] 1998 and scans were not as prevalent as they are now. [00:08:45]

Payman Langroudi: By the way. I mean, CTS don’t really show as much as MRIs, either in the brain. [00:08:50] No. So, um, so the CT.

Kathryn Bell: Scan was just like the initial diagnosis. [00:08:55] And then prior to the surgery, I had an MRI and a bit more. [00:09:00]

Payman Langroudi: So then what happened? What happened after that? I guess you came straight back home or what happened? Oh, you had a treatment [00:09:05] there?

Kathryn Bell: Well, I had a brain haemorrhage.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you had to have treatment.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. Um, so [00:09:10] my parents then got this phone call, um, like half the world away. They were, [00:09:15] I think they were just sitting down to breakfast in the morning and they got this phone call to say, your [00:09:20] 17 year old daughter is literally fighting for a life. Um, and they had to make a [00:09:25] choice, so they needed one of them to stay by the phone in England because [00:09:30] I was 17 and so under the age of consent, and I couldn’t give consent [00:09:35] anyway because I was so out of it. Um, and then obviously the other to fly out to be with [00:09:40] me and what they were hoping is that they would keep me stable for as long as it took for [00:09:45] one of my parents to arrive with to be with me. Um, but so, I mean, [00:09:50] you know, you’re a parent yourself. You imagine one of your children as, as you know, you’ve [00:09:55] given them that freedom to fly to America on an exchange trip and you get up one [00:10:00] morning, you’re just going about the morning phone rings, and it’s a doctor in America telling you that your [00:10:05] daughter is dying, essentially. And so my mum [00:10:10] flew out to be with me and my dad stayed at home, and this was my [00:10:15] mum’s second time on a plane. She’d only ever been on a plane once before. She was obviously [00:10:20] flying out on her own and to a country she’d never been before, to people she’d never [00:10:25] met. I mean, I just I cannot imagine what that must be like as a parent.

Kathryn Bell: It just [00:10:30] baffles me. And she’s I remember I spoke to her afterwards and she said that she, like [00:10:35] she was just the pain. The plane was flying so slowly it seemed to her. She was like she wanted [00:10:40] to get out and push. It felt like it was taking forever. Um, but [00:10:45] whilst she was in the air my pupils blew. So [00:10:50] they became fixed and dilated. They’d already drilled a hole in my skull to release [00:10:55] the pressure. Release the pressure. But my intracranial pressure was just getting [00:11:00] too high. I couldn’t control it anymore, and they ended up having to phone my dad [00:11:05] to get permission to do the emergency surgery whilst my mum was still [00:11:10] flying over. So all of this is based on, you know, I have absolutely [00:11:15] no memory of this whatsoever. So these bits have been filled in from from the people that were [00:11:20] around me at the time. Um, and that includes Pat who was like, he was, [00:11:25] you know, this was like I said, this was a family had not met before, but they, they stepped up, you [00:11:30] know, and Marie, my teacher who was there, they were the ones that were advocating on my [00:11:35] behalf because, you know, I couldn’t do it myself. I was just out of it. So [00:11:40] they were, you know, there by my bedside, looking after [00:11:45] me and doing everything they could until my mum arrived and Pat [00:11:50] collected her from the airport. And the first thing he like literally, [00:11:55] I think the first thing he said to her was, she is alive.

Kathryn Bell: She’s in [00:12:00] surgery. So that was like, yeah, that was all, you know, at that moment. That was [00:12:05] the information that she needed to know. Um, so he, she was like, [00:12:10] he said to her, you know, do you want to come to our house? Do you want to freshen up? She’s like, no, I just need to get to the hospital. [00:12:15] So he drove us straight to the hospital and she arrived whilst [00:12:20] I was in the middle of this operation. Nobody knew what the outcome of that was going to be. [00:12:25] Um, and again, I’m immensely grateful [00:12:30] for all of the exchange families because they never at [00:12:35] any point left my mum on her own. She always had somebody with her. [00:12:40] Um, and they met all of her needs. So if she wanted to sit in silence, [00:12:45] they just sat in silence with her. If she needed a drink, whatever it was, they [00:12:50] just rallied around and made sure that she had what she needed. Um, [00:12:55] and then eventually at the end of the surgery, I was taken to intensive care. [00:13:00] Um, and I was in a coma for a couple of days after [00:13:05] the operation. Um, and again, this was that point where nobody really [00:13:10] knew what um, sort of condition I’d be in when I woke up. And [00:13:15] me and my mum had always been really close and we’d always loved watching things like er [00:13:20] and casualty and all the kind of hospital dramas. And alongside [00:13:25] that we’d had this conversation, both of us, about if we were ever in a [00:13:30] situation about where we were unbelievably [00:13:35] brain damaged and, you know, we wouldn’t be able to function as ourselves, you know, and there was [00:13:40] an option to turn off the life support.

Kathryn Bell: What would we do? And I’d always said that if it came [00:13:45] to it, I wanted my life support switched off. And so obviously this was running through my [00:13:50] mum’s head all of this time sitting by my bed. Um, and [00:13:55] then, uh, eventually. So funnily enough, I had the surgery [00:14:00] on Good Friday and I woke up on Easter Sunday. So, um, [00:14:05] I woke up and, and the first person I saw was [00:14:10] Pat, who was just that was him. He was always there for everybody. [00:14:15] That’s, that’s just the person that he is. He’s, he’s very calm. Um, [00:14:20] got an incredible dry sense of humour, amazing guy. And he was just there [00:14:25] and he explained that my mum had been persuaded for the first time [00:14:30] since she’d arrived in America, to actually go home and get freshened up and get [00:14:35] a change of clothes. And of course, that’s the moment that I chose to wake up. Wake up. So when she’d gone, Um, [00:14:40] and so at this point, I still had a ventilator. I was [00:14:45] actually strapped to the bed. Um, so I had restraints around my wrists [00:14:50] and ankles. I had tubes everywhere. Uh, and so Pat kind of, um, [00:14:55] explained what was going on, um, and, and what had happened [00:15:00] and why I was lying there and why I was strapped to the bed. Because even [00:15:05] whilst I was unconscious, I’d been trying to pull out the tubes and the, I’d been fighting against everything. [00:15:10]

Kathryn Bell: Um and so he kind of filled in the gaps. And not long after [00:15:15] that, a respiratory therapist arrived and, um, [00:15:20] uh, she offered to take the tube out and [00:15:25] I kind of looked at Pat and he was like, well, it’s up to you. And they said, you [00:15:30] know, do you want do you want to wait for your mum? And again, he was like, it’s entirely up to you. I was like, no, I just, I just [00:15:35] want this out. So and then obviously I could talk, but the. The most. The thing I wanted [00:15:40] most was I just wanted a drink of water and I wasn’t allowed. I couldn’t have a drink of water. So they gave me [00:15:45] this really disappointing wet sponge lollipop that I can suck on. [00:15:50] Um, and so when my mum arrived and obviously they phoned my mum to say I was awake [00:15:55] and I think she’d literally just stepped through the door, so turned round and came straight back to [00:16:00] the hospital. So when she arrived, she saw me sitting up in bed. [00:16:05] Um, and I kind of smiled at her and she said she, she, she knew, she knew straight [00:16:10] away the minute she saw me that I was going to be okay. Um, you know, she could see [00:16:15] it in my eyes. So, um, huge relief really. I mean, your [00:16:20] only daughter. Yeah. Going through all that halfway around the world. Um, [00:16:25] so I spent a few days in intensive care.

Payman Langroudi: But the tumour was still [00:16:30] there, so.

Kathryn Bell: No. So they, they’d removed the tumour.

Payman Langroudi: Removed the.

Kathryn Bell: Tumour? Yeah. They removed the tumour as part of the surgery [00:16:35] to deal with the haemorrhage. So that had all been cleared out. It was a benign tumour with [00:16:40] a very, very long name called a cerebellar hemangioblastoma, which is basically [00:16:45] a collection of blood vessels. And the, uh, the car [00:16:50] accident that we were in had literally just knocked it enough that it had caused a slow bleed. [00:16:55] Um, and that’s why it had taken more or less a week for it to be discovered. [00:17:00]

Payman Langroudi: Interesting to think what would have happened if you didn’t have the car accident.

Kathryn Bell: They told me.

Payman Langroudi: Go [00:17:05] on.

Kathryn Bell: So, uh, Doctor Shields, who was the consultant neurologist, he [00:17:10] came to see me once I’d been moved down to the general ward. Um, and he said that I could have [00:17:15] had a fatal stroke just walking down the street at any moment. Yeah. So the [00:17:20] series of coincidences that led me up to being [00:17:25] in that hospital at that moment in time is absolutely [00:17:30] mind boggling. You know, it just seemed when when it just doesn’t seem real. [00:17:35] Um, it’s it’s crazy.

Payman Langroudi: And in our text exchange, you alluded [00:17:40] to sort of some sort of guilt of survival.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. Big time. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Explain that to.

Kathryn Bell: Me. So, [00:17:45] um, I mean, brain tumours are the biggest [00:17:50] killer of under 40s. And I survived. And it’s that, you [00:17:55] know, people are it’s one of those things. It’s people think, well why me? Why did I have a brain [00:18:00] tumour? No, no, for me it’s why me? Why did I survive when so many people don’t? [00:18:05]

Payman Langroudi: But had you become friends with others, was it something like that?

Kathryn Bell: No, it’s more kind of [00:18:10] re like. I remember not long afterwards reading about, I think it was a two year old boy who who’d [00:18:15] died from a brain tumour or, um, you know, [00:18:20] and I read of other people who’ve, who’ve died from brain tumours because and [00:18:25] I tried to explain this to somebody else. There’s no such thing as a truly benign brain tumour. [00:18:30] You can have ones that, that don’t metastasise, that aren’t cancerous in that [00:18:35] way, but anything inside your brain is going to have some sort [00:18:40] of effect. Um, and a lot of the time that’s catastrophic. Whether that’s [00:18:45] speech impairments, hearing vision, personality changes, you know, [00:18:50] it controls everything. So the fact that not only did I survive, [00:18:55] but I survived to the level that I have done. And that’s, that’s [00:19:00] taken me a I mean, I wouldn’t even say I’m 100% okay with it now. [00:19:05]

Payman Langroudi: It’s I kind of understand my, what my, my, uh, someone in my family [00:19:10] had a stroke and then we went, she was okay. And then we went [00:19:15] to a check up kind of thing at Queen’s Square. And almost [00:19:20] everyone else in the waiting room had a massive either walking [00:19:25] or talking or something disability. And she didn’t. And I [00:19:30] kind of thought, you know, that like the luck of that and why do we, you know, get that [00:19:35] luck and everyone else got the bad luck. But you’re kind of then associated some guilt with that, right? [00:19:40]

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. Survive. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Survivor’s guilt and the guilt still, still bothers you to to this day. What we’re talking 25 years [00:19:45] later or something. Yeah. So interesting. Yeah. Okay. You know, what I’m interested [00:19:50] in is that when you sent me your original note about all of this. I thought [00:19:55] that you were still sort of defining yourself by this, which I’m sure you are to some extent.

Kathryn Bell: I’m the girl that [00:20:00] survived, for sure. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But then I listen to your podcast with Jaz Gulati and it wasn’t mentioned.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. [00:20:05]

Payman Langroudi: At all.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, so it’s good that you also have the other side of it where you’re moving forward [00:20:10] and you’re not letting it define you. Yeah. By the way, great podcast. I recommend anyone to listen [00:20:15] to that.

Kathryn Bell: Thanks so much.

Payman Langroudi: Episode 180 of Protrusive. Yeah. Great [00:20:20] pod.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, let’s move on. Yeah. Had you already decided [00:20:25] to be a dentist? You must have been 17. Had you already decided to apply [00:20:30] to dental school when this all happened.

Kathryn Bell: Yes. So, um, I was doing my A Levels [00:20:35] at Sale grammar school, which is where I grew up around there, south South Manchester. And [00:20:40] um, I, I think it was our chemistry class, we had this little note delivered, [00:20:45] uh, and the teacher read it out. It was basically a local dental practice that was looking [00:20:50] for somebody interested in sort of a medical field, and they were looking [00:20:55] for somebody to do one night after school a week as a dental nurse. So [00:21:00] this was before you had.

Payman Langroudi: The good old.

Kathryn Bell: Days? Yeah, the good old days when you could just go along and, and [00:21:05] do those sort of jobs without any registration or anything like that. So, um, and that had really [00:21:10] piqued my interest. I think in, in dentistry, I’d already [00:21:15] figured out that I wanted to do something healthcare related. Um, and [00:21:20] again, I kind of maybe that’s due to all those lovely hospital dramas that I used to watch, but it [00:21:25] kind of fitted in with how I was as a person, uh, you know, where [00:21:30] I wanted my life to go. And so I started doing this this one night a week as a [00:21:35] dental nurse. And I was predominantly working with the hygienist, actually, who was just an absolute [00:21:40] sweetheart. She was lovely. Um, but that kind of opened my eyes [00:21:45] a bit more to what was involved with, with that kind of aspect of, um, [00:21:50] healthcare. And it really appealed to me because I’ve always been quite [00:21:55] creative as well. So for me, it was that real combination of [00:22:00] the healthcare, but also with that creative element alongside it as well. Um, [00:22:05] and so I’d, I’d chosen my A levels based on doing [00:22:10] something healthcare based. So I was doing chemistry, biology and psychology. Um, [00:22:15] and then general studies as well, which is a bit of a, a nothing a level, but um, [00:22:20] and so yeah, so every Thursday I was going half three till [00:22:25] 8:00, uh, working in a dental practice, literally just down the road from [00:22:30] my school. And it really I really enjoyed that experience because [00:22:35] it did show me like the the other side of the dentistry. You know, I’d been a dental [00:22:40] patient, but I’d never seen that kind of other side what the actual inner workings of a dental practice [00:22:45] were. And that was really.

Payman Langroudi: What I expect the tumour must have got in the way of that.

Kathryn Bell: It did so. So obviously [00:22:50] I’d been working there and then um, I had the brain tumour and then I got meningitis [00:22:55] and then I got hydrocephalus. Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:23:00] was this all as a result of the operations?

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I had, uh, [00:23:05] the meningitis I developed whilst I was in America. So not long after I’d um come [00:23:10] out from the original hospital stay. But then the hydrocephalus developed [00:23:15] a little bit later. So that was treated in the UK. So I ended up having another two week stay when [00:23:20] I got back to the UK. Um, so all in all I lost a whole term [00:23:25] of school. Um and obviously the kind of inner workings of the dental practice [00:23:30] as well. And I was faced, I had to face this really difficult choice [00:23:35] at the age of 17. And that was, did I carry [00:23:40] on and go into year 12 and year 13 and [00:23:45] sit my A-levels? Probably not then able to get the [00:23:50] grades that I’d need to go to university.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. But then that was then, you know, some [00:23:55] of my friends I’d known since I was 4 or 5. You know, I’d been through the whole school [00:24:00] system. And at 17, that’s a massive thing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I.

Kathryn Bell: Know. Um, just the thought of having to, [00:24:05] to drop down to a year where I knew nobody really.

Payman Langroudi: It’s mad, isn’t it, that that’s so important. [00:24:10] I know in hindsight one year. Absolutely. Um, so you decided to [00:24:15] skip a year.

Kathryn Bell: I dropped back, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And applied the following year.

Kathryn Bell: And and and repeat. So [00:24:20] I repeated year 12. So which was good because that meant that the first two terms [00:24:25] were essentially revision. And given that I was recovering from having my [00:24:30] brain fiddled with, it was quite useful.

Payman Langroudi: Some of this, I mean, I’ve often heard cancer [00:24:35] survivors talk about a new lease of life. And, you know, in a way sort [00:24:40] of making sure every day counts after that. Do you? I’m sure there’s [00:24:45] an element of that in you right now.

Kathryn Bell: Always.

Payman Langroudi: But was it was it even as a 17 year old, did you [00:24:50] feel. Yeah, I’ve been given a chance and I’m going to make the most of it now.

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: It became [00:24:55] really.

Kathryn Bell: Important to me. Yeah. Basically. Yeah. I was like.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of person were you before and [00:25:00] what kind of person did you become after? Like, were you? I don’t know, I don’t know, I’m [00:25:05] disorganised and lazy. Let’s say if I survive something like that, I might [00:25:10] pull up my pants and really become organised. I don’t know if that will work, but yeah. [00:25:15] Come on. What changed about you?

Kathryn Bell: I’ve always been very self-motivated. [00:25:20] Um, um. And I think that was. I [00:25:25] think it was. I don’t think I changed. I just think that certain elements of my personality were [00:25:30] enhanced in a way. So kind of that self-motivation. [00:25:35] And my parents always gave me the choice. They, you know, even at 17, [00:25:40] they, they trusted me to make the right choice for myself because they [00:25:45] knew that they could. I’d already proved that I, I could do what [00:25:50] I needed to.

Payman Langroudi: What were you, the oldest?

Kathryn Bell: No. My brother is eight years older than me.

Payman Langroudi: Are the two of you?

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. [00:25:55] Yeah. It’s just the two of us. Um, but, you know, I. In [00:26:00] year ten at school, I had been. I was a teenager, [00:26:05] and I let boys distract me for a little while, and I was in detention quite a lot. But then [00:26:10] when it mattered in year 11, that’s when I pulled my socks off. I was like, right, I, I can do better [00:26:15] than that. And again, it didn’t come externally. This was all from internal motivation. It’s like, [00:26:20] I want to do well and I’m basically going to prove everybody.

Payman Langroudi: U11’s GCSEs.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. [00:26:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So my my my kids go to French school is.

Kathryn Bell: Different, different different.

Payman Langroudi: System. So [00:26:30] GCSEs you pulled your your socks.

Kathryn Bell: My socks up and I was like, and that’s actually when I started with [00:26:35] the headaches. But even despite the headaches, I was like, I say, I was still getting up every [00:26:40] morning. I was still going to school every day despite these horrendous headaches. Um, [00:26:45] because of that internal motivation, I was going to prove to all the people that said I [00:26:50] couldn’t get the GCSE results. I was going to prove to them that I could. Um, and I do quite like proving [00:26:55] people wrong in, in that regard. Um so, so [00:27:00] it didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: It’s funny though the people like that are very interesting to me. I’ve had loads of people sitting where you’re not where you’re [00:27:05] sitting, but in the previous studio in the previous studio saying the same thing. Yeah. That I [00:27:10] don’t want, I want, I want to prove people wrong. And I’ve, I’ve noticed as a manipulator, [00:27:15] you can really use some reverse psychology on people like that.

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You [00:27:20] tell me I can’t do something. And I’ll be like, okay.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t use enlightened though. It’s [00:27:25] not. You’re not up to it.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, I know exactly. I don’t think you can do it for [00:27:30] two weeks at home.

Payman Langroudi: So you, you went to Leeds?

Kathryn Bell: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And so I [00:27:35] guess Leeds, you grew up in Manchester. It’s a fair enough distance away.

Kathryn Bell: Yes. Again it [00:27:40] was that thing of I.

Payman Langroudi: Which Dental student were you at. So because of all of this were you the super [00:27:45] swot?

Kathryn Bell: Oh yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. I still class myself [00:27:50] as a geek, a 100%. And I am proud to be a geek. I have no qualms about that [00:27:55] whatsoever. I love to learn. I love to know stuff. And if I don’t know something, I [00:28:00] will go and research it until I know it inside and out. That’s.

Payman Langroudi: I can tell from the way you talk. You’re [00:28:05] very precise about names of people and dates and all of that. Yeah. And so when [00:28:10] you’re learning is that question that you want to know the full story?

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely. Yeah. I [00:28:15] don’t just want to know on the surface.

Payman Langroudi: I want to learn the three facts.

Kathryn Bell: No, I want to know [00:28:20] the. I want to know it inside and out. I really do. That’s. And again, I think that’s why I ended up doing [00:28:25] a master’s, because it’s a subject that I was super interested in and I wanted to know it.

Payman Langroudi: The master’s [00:28:30] was in what.

Kathryn Bell: Aesthetic medicine.

Payman Langroudi: Aesthetic medicine?

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. So, uh, in [00:28:35] fact, my results might be out today. So I literally handed in my dissertation about a month ago. And I think [00:28:40] today as results.

Payman Langroudi: Day was the station.

Kathryn Bell: Um, so I looked at, um, [00:28:45] how social media has the potential to influence the [00:28:50] perception of um, um, not ageing, [00:28:55] but more how, how people, aesthetic patients perception might be distorted [00:29:00] by social media. And it’s specifically looking at women aged 35 [00:29:05] to 55 because it’s a massively underrepresented age group [00:29:10] in research, in facial aesthetics. And yet they are one of the biggest age groups [00:29:15] that’s treated.

Payman Langroudi: And what was what was something that you found out that was so interesting.

Kathryn Bell: I [00:29:20] developed a whole, um, dysmorphic influence index.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:29:25] good on you.

Kathryn Bell: To assess how, [00:29:30] um, certain social media posts might have the potential to influence [00:29:35] people’s perception. Um, and it kind of, um, it had certain markers [00:29:40] and creates a score. So, and then it’s grouped as high, moderate or [00:29:45] low.

Payman Langroudi: I’d like to get into it because, because, you know, you could have, we could have be having this conversation 20 years ago [00:29:50] and someone could say media. Mhm. You know, TV, TV and [00:29:55] films.

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: We could be having it 40 years ago. Someone would say magazines and radio or [00:30:00] whatever it is.

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: But social has it’s got a particular sort of I don’t know how [00:30:05] you describe it. Is it like a comparison thing? You know, [00:30:10] it’s a great way of making you feel terrible about yourself in all realms of life. [00:30:15]

Kathryn Bell: Well, in all, yeah, all realms of life. Absolutely. Because I [00:30:20] hope that it is changing and that more people are actually trying to show the other side [00:30:25] of this side. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas a lot of it is manipulated [00:30:30] or people only show the best parts of, of their lives or the best results or, [00:30:35] um, any, anything related to that. It is all very not manipulated, [00:30:40] but curated, very curated. Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Um, by the way, your own page, [00:30:45] beautifully curated. Absolutely.

Kathryn Bell: It is.

Payman Langroudi: Perfectly [00:30:50] manicured.

Kathryn Bell: Thank you to my social media manager. [00:30:55] Shout out to social media sister. Um, [00:31:00] but no, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: But the type of posts that particularly is harmful [00:31:05] to go into that.

Kathryn Bell: So before and afters and filtered images, they’re [00:31:10] the two. Um, so one of the things you might have noticed on my page is that actually I don’t have a lot of before [00:31:15] and afters. And that is for that reason because, um, I [00:31:20] mean, thankfully people don’t generally manipulate them, [00:31:25] but there’s no way of easily determining whether the images are manipulated [00:31:30] in any way.

Payman Langroudi: Well, actually, you know, there’s a lot more manipulation going on than we [00:31:35] realise. Um, and I don’t know if you talk to big time [00:31:40] lecturers, all of them say that many people manipulate their, their Dental images, [00:31:45] even for teaching, which really surprised me.

Kathryn Bell: I know.

Payman Langroudi: Surprised.

Kathryn Bell: It’s a real [00:31:50] shame. Yeah, it’s a real shame. But then isn’t that down to our own insecurities [00:31:55] or their.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you can build a whole career on manipulated images, right? Because, you [00:32:00] know, if you can just rub out that little bit of whatever it is, suddenly everyone will think like, [00:32:05] wow, he’s a genius. Yeah.

Kathryn Bell: Exactly. That is absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Right. At [00:32:10] the same time, I mean, we do a lot of social media, but before and after images work.

Kathryn Bell: They do. There’s no doubt about [00:32:15] that.

Payman Langroudi: Why are you even doing social media?

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely. It’s really hard to get that balance. [00:32:20] And, um, certainly one of the Acer stipulations [00:32:25] is to try and avoid using before and afters because they can, um, create [00:32:30] unrealistic expectations. And also everybody, because somebody might come [00:32:35] in asking for a certain treatment and say, I just don’t think, you know, that’s just [00:32:40] not the right treatment. And they’re like, well, I saw this image of that, you know, before and after where you did it. And they looked like [00:32:45] me before. And it’s like, yeah, but that isn’t your face.

Payman Langroudi: And everybody, it’s not [00:32:50] a car clutch. You’re changing.

Kathryn Bell: No, exactly. Exactly. Everybody’s anatomy is different. [00:32:55]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about facial aesthetics and how would you class the different sort of [00:33:00] categories. Firstly, in the career development of a dentist [00:33:05] who wants to go into it, and secondly, for patients, because, I mean, [00:33:10] let’s take it from the patient’s perspective. They could go to a full on, you [00:33:15] know, facelift. Yeah. Plastic surgeon on the one end. [00:33:20]

Kathryn Bell: Yep.

Payman Langroudi: Or on the other end. They could buy some cream.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s the sort of the [00:33:25] spectrum from a patient as well as let’s say the mental side of all of this.

Kathryn Bell: Oh. [00:33:30]

Payman Langroudi: But what about for the dentist. I mean I’ve talked to loads of dentists. My wife, one of them um [00:33:35] who say, you know, she’s even done some training, but [00:33:40] the question of how to bring it up with patients at the very beginning. If you’ve just become someone [00:33:45] who’s just starting with some injectables or whatever it is, let me know. How do you start? [00:33:50] How do you start introducing that to patients?

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, it’s so tricky. I mean, it really is. And this [00:33:55] is the biggest barrier. I think I would liken it a little bit to [00:34:00] how you introduce whitening.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kathryn Bell: Um you ask that question. [00:34:05] I’m curious. You know, I’m just wondering, does [00:34:10] this bother you. And if they say no, you move on quickly. If they say yes. [00:34:15] But I’ve never known what to do about it. It’s like, well, there are some possible solutions. Would [00:34:20] you be interested in knowing what they are? So it’s never, ever. I’ve noticed this. You [00:34:25] could look so much better if we do this, you know. It’s very gentle because it isn’t for [00:34:30] everybody. And that’s totally okay. There’s nothing wrong.

Payman Langroudi: With [00:34:35] a patient who you know will benefit and you really want to help [00:34:40] them. You’re going to be. Aren’t you going to be a little bit more enthusiastic than that? Or is that [00:34:45] really how you start? You start very gently.

Kathryn Bell: Very gently. Yeah. I mean, if it’s a hard no, fine, [00:34:50] absolutely fine. Because what looks [00:34:55] like an imperfection to one person can be a characteristic to somebody else. You know, somebody [00:35:00] who’s bothered like a chipped front tooth. It might just be part of who they are. You know, they’re not bothered [00:35:05] even diastema. Right. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: I very enthusiastically when I was a dentist years ago, a as [00:35:10] a young dentist, I very enthusiastically told someone, yeah, I can fix this problem. And [00:35:15] she she was offended.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, when you’re too young to know.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:35:20] she was like, I don’t see it as a problem. And I could tell she was offended by the way I approached [00:35:25] it. Yeah. I was too young to know that some people could be happy with that. Yeah, well.

Kathryn Bell: You do, [00:35:30] because you I mean, when you’re taught at dental school, you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Taught this.

Kathryn Bell: Stuff. No, you’re not taught that. [00:35:35]

Payman Langroudi: You said psychology was your number one A-level. Your most useful A-level.

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:35:40] not the one that was required at all.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, exactly. And and even at university [00:35:45] we did behavioural sciences. But a lot of that wasn’t actually [00:35:50] relevant to, to what.

Payman Langroudi: You know, in whitening, the way that we teach on how to get over [00:35:55] this issue is to take it away from personalising it to that patient. [00:36:00] Yeah. And for instance, if the question is, have you ever thought about teeth whitening? Yeah. The [00:36:05] next part of that question is we’re asking everyone.

Kathryn Bell: Oh yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because yeah. [00:36:10] Because it’s important to um in your world it would be. Have you ever thought about [00:36:15] a facial analysis. We’re asking everyone because yeah, yeah, yeah. As [00:36:20] long as you take it away from that individual. Yeah. Suddenly it’s cool.

Kathryn Bell: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:36:25] Have you ever tried that approach.

Kathryn Bell: No I’ve not I like that I’m going to steal it.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s good for once. Yeah. Have you [00:36:30] ever thought about, uh, braces? We’re asking everyone because we’ve got this new scanner.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Whitening. [00:36:35] We’re asking everyone because there’s an offer. Yeah. Facial aesthetic. We’re asking everyone because we’ve got a new service.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, exactly. [00:36:40]

Payman Langroudi: It’s good for once.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, this is it. And I. And I’ve got, um, quite nicely. I [00:36:45] have got a facial scanner.

Payman Langroudi: Have you.

Kathryn Bell: Have you, have you. Yeah. And again that is um [00:36:50] just a really useful tool.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So, so you answered that bit how to get the initial sort [00:36:55] of thing going then I expect you must be well known, well known now in [00:37:00] Chippenham for being, you know, one of your facial facial aesthetics expert. What’s [00:37:05] the next? Let’s call it marketing level. Is it purely sort of organic [00:37:10] Instagram or do you do you do some paid stuff or.

Kathryn Bell: I don’t do any paid stuff. [00:37:15] Are you.

Payman Langroudi: Out there somehow in the community shouting about.

Kathryn Bell: It? No not particularly. We do [00:37:20] like localised, um, like events within the practice. In fact, we’re working [00:37:25] on.

Payman Langroudi: Open day type.

Kathryn Bell: Stuff. Exactly. So our next one is actually based on skin treatments [00:37:30] rather than injectables. Mhm. Because there is still quite [00:37:35] a lot of fear around injectable treatments understandably. Absolutely. And it’s [00:37:40] I think, again, predominantly it is around how they are portrayed. [00:37:45] People worry that they’re going to be noticeable. They’re going to have big fish lips or, [00:37:50] you know, frozen faces when actually you can individually [00:37:55] individualise results so that they’re not.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s so interesting, isn’t it, that when [00:38:00] when it’s the same with, with, with cosmetic dentistry, right? When you can see it, it’s [00:38:05] because it’s been done not so well.

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely. That’s exactly it. It’s the [00:38:10] the subtle results where, okay, somebody who knows you really, really well and has [00:38:15] known you for a long time may notice. But other people are just going to say.

Payman Langroudi: Something [00:38:20] you said in the jazz podcast about, let’s say you’re doing lips, do it in small increments. [00:38:25]

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Such an interesting point. So so true. Sometimes I remember [00:38:30] years ago, I did some veneers for a patient. She was over the moon and nurse was over the moon. I was over the [00:38:35] moon. Everyone was happy. Went home. Someone said something, came back and said, I want them changed. Yeah. And [00:38:40] you know that other person, that third party or family member or whatever is [00:38:45] a key person. I remember afterwards, after that happened, obviously with veneers, you can’t increase them [00:38:50] incrementally. I used to tell patients, someone in your in your life is not going to like them [00:38:55] to give them that warning.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Do you do that too?

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, absolutely. And it’s really important. [00:39:00] Um, but for aesthetics, as I say, Generally, I [00:39:05] don’t do big changes because often it’s too much for the patient [00:39:10] themselves. They don’t want to see that big difference. They want to look in the mirror and think, oh, I [00:39:15] look fresh faced. And some of the treatments that I do, they’re not immediately noticeable. [00:39:20] But after about 3 to 6 weeks, you can see it. And often I [00:39:25] warn people, I say, look, you’re not going to notice anything, but in a few weeks you’re going to look [00:39:30] in the mirror and you go, oh, my skin looks amazing. And that’s the treatment that I’ve done that. [00:39:35] Um, so I feel like a slow builder is so much [00:39:40] more beneficial than a massive wow. I mean, for some people, if that’s what they want, then maybe actually [00:39:45] it’s surgery that’s going to be a better option. And it’s important to discuss that as [00:39:50] an option for people as well. As you say, there’s a massive spectrum and people need to know their treatment options [00:39:55] just as for any other treatment.

Payman Langroudi: I had no idea what a big area it was. Now [00:40:00] I’ve been talking to some dentists about it. Um, but tell me the bit that the obviously [00:40:05] the difference between injectables and skin creams and treatments and peels and [00:40:10] all of that. But do some, do some people not offer both? No. Most people offer [00:40:15] both.

Kathryn Bell: Um, no. Well, actually no, most people don’t offer both. Offer both. Yeah. But then [00:40:20] again, it’s it’s, it’s not only a journey for patients. It’s often a journey for the practitioner. [00:40:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, that’s what I mean.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so let’s, let’s go through the skin treatments [00:40:30] first.

Kathryn Bell: Sure. So I mean, there’s a whole whole range. Some of them I don’t offer myself, but there’s things [00:40:35] like lasers, peels of different levels, microneedling, exosomes, [00:40:40] they’re kind of the predominant non injectables. But then you go onto [00:40:45] injectables like skin boosters, polynucleotides um things [00:40:50] like.

Payman Langroudi: Injectables other than toxins and fillers. I didn’t [00:40:55] know about this.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. This is all this.

Payman Langroudi: Is, is this new?

Kathryn Bell: I mean, not, not that new. [00:41:00] There’s the there have been bio stimulators out on the market for quite a long time. But [00:41:05] there’s I think, again, the public perception is coming around to this idea of [00:41:10] actually work with what you’ve got, but just boost it. You [00:41:15] know, and again, it’s for people who don’t necessarily want the kind of reduced [00:41:20] muscle movement or the increased volume, which is basically what toxins [00:41:25] and filler do. There’s other things that can be done. And I think that’s [00:41:30] the bit that’s.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve definitely heard the word bio nuclear, but what does it do?

Kathryn Bell: What’s that? Sorry? The polynucleotide.

Payman Langroudi: Polynucleotide. [00:41:35]

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. So they, um, they’re basically a strand of RNA. [00:41:40] And so they work with, with your own um, biology to enhance [00:41:45] the skin. So really useful around the eyes because they help with [00:41:50] um angiogenesis. So blood capillary blood vessel [00:41:55] formation and skin thickening. So one of the things around the eyes as we age is skin [00:42:00] gets thinner. So if you’re increasing the robustness of the skin around there, [00:42:05] it helps to reduce the appearance of fine lines and that crepey skin that you get. Um, [00:42:10] and also even very, very fine hyaluronic acid. So not [00:42:15] so much fillers, which are quite thick, but very, very fluid hyaluronic acid [00:42:20] materials around the eye just increases the hydration as well. So there’s all sorts of, [00:42:25] and the exosomes which are basically, um, cell to cell [00:42:30] communication. And we’re looking at activating the fibroblasts, which stimulate [00:42:35] collagen production and just improving the health of the skin from within. So [00:42:40] the skin looks healthy and the tone is, is less because [00:42:45] we associate kind of pallor and almost that kind of waxy appearance [00:42:50] with age. And so that’s kind of looking at, um, not reversing it, but slowing [00:42:55] that process down. Um, I remember going to a Frank Speer [00:43:00] lecture, and I don’t know if it was his words or if he was quoting somebody else, [00:43:05] but it was helping your patient to get worse at the slowest possible rate. And so, [00:43:10] and that’s basically what facial aesthetics.

Payman Langroudi: So you’ve used all of these. Which one stands out?

Kathryn Bell: Oh, [00:43:15] that is really difficult because it depends on the patient.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I suppose. [00:43:20]

Kathryn Bell: It depends on the patient. But I a polynucleotides are probably the newest kid on the block. [00:43:25] There isn’t as much research into them, but there is some really [00:43:30] interesting early research research about the impact of it. Um, [00:43:35] and I think that they are going to be massive over the next few years as that research, [00:43:40] um, comes about.

Payman Langroudi: And risks wise. Any of them, any of them risky? [00:43:45]

Kathryn Bell: I mean, all treatment has risks. Yeah. Um, not to the same sort [00:43:50] of level as the, the fillers. I mean anything with hyaluronic acid you have got [00:43:55] the risk of.

Payman Langroudi: Blood vessel occlusion.

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely. So even even the [00:44:00] fine ones, the biggest risks are things like bruising, swelling, um, [00:44:05] uh, a allergic reaction or infection. But again, all of [00:44:10] those things you try and reduce the risk of when, when you’re carrying out the treatments.

Payman Langroudi: And from the [00:44:15] business side. Which one of these is most expensive or the one that you can [00:44:20] make the most out of or.

Kathryn Bell: The, the that is all down to combination treatments. [00:44:25] So, um, for example, I have a patient [00:44:30] who comes in every three months for her toxins. And [00:44:35] then in between she’ll come in for her polynucleotides and skin boosters. [00:44:40] So I see her about every six weeks. Um, so I think it’s those combination [00:44:45] treatments.

Payman Langroudi: What is it like £300 every six weeks? Is that. I don’t [00:44:50] want to be reductive.

Kathryn Bell: No, no no. So we’re looking so that’s around about £800 every [00:44:55] six weeks.

Payman Langroudi: And a relatively stress free appointment for you. Yeah, compared to drilling [00:45:00] and filling. Yeah.

Kathryn Bell: I mean, this is somebody that I see regularly and I [00:45:05] know her really well.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting, isn’t it? You don’t need many of those before you’ve got a whole career. No. [00:45:10] I mean, how many of those do you need? 20. Yeah. That’s it exactly. [00:45:15]

Kathryn Bell: Exactly. But again, for her, we’re not doing we’re not doing any fillers. We are [00:45:20] looking we’re doing the skin and the muscle. We’re not going on the deeper layers. It’s just [00:45:25] maintaining. She’s very well maintained.

Payman Langroudi: So tell [00:45:30] me a horror story.

Kathryn Bell: From facial aesthetics.

Payman Langroudi: One of your own.

Kathryn Bell: Not not yeah of course.

Payman Langroudi: No [00:45:35] not not not one you’ve heard from someone else like what’s gone wrong.

Kathryn Bell: So I think with facial aesthetics, [00:45:40] the hardest thing is the psychology. Um, and I [00:45:45] had a patient who, I [00:45:50] bless her, she, I knew that something wasn’t. Okay. [00:45:55] You know, there.

Payman Langroudi: Was something something.

Kathryn Bell: Was going on. Something was going on. Um, [00:46:00] and she, she actually came to me from another practitioner. [00:46:05] And that’s always a little bit of a okay.

Payman Langroudi: You know, just like dentistry, right?

Kathryn Bell: Just like dentistry. [00:46:10] Absolutely. And, um, and she was having, she had [00:46:15] previously had fillers. Um, and again, she was very well maintained. Um, [00:46:20] and I was asked during the consultation, [00:46:25] I, you know, I was, I was assessing kind of her responses to the [00:46:30] questions I was asking. And I like to drop in a little bit about, you [00:46:35] know, how much, how much does this bother you? How long do you spend worrying [00:46:40] about this? But she was very blasé. But still there was this little alarm [00:46:45] bell going off. But and I didn’t listen to it. And that was my biggest mistake. [00:46:50] So I did go ahead and treat her. And then she came back for [00:46:55] the review and she brought a mirror, her own mirror, out of her bag. And I think [00:47:00] it must have been like 50 times magnification. And she kind of held it about here and, [00:47:05] um, and she was asking about an area here and I was like, well, this was an area that [00:47:10] we treated. And she goes, well, who, who puts fillers there? I’m like, well, you can, you [00:47:15] can basically put fillers anywhere. And she’s like, well, this doesn’t look right. And [00:47:20] I was like, okay. Now, luckily I had taken before photos and so I was able [00:47:25] to bring those up and we discussed them about them. But regardless, she, she was, she wasn’t [00:47:30] happy. And again, there’s, there’s definitely an element of, of dysmorphic [00:47:35] disorder. Um, and it has to be handled so carefully [00:47:40] because you don’t want to offend, you don’t want to turn around and say, [00:47:45] this is all in your head because it isn’t, you know, it’s a real, it’s [00:47:50] real. Um, but I, you know, I said, okay, no, I appreciate [00:47:55] that, but I just don’t think I can do any more for you at this point. I just don’t [00:48:00] think that I can achieve what you want me to achieve. Um, and [00:48:05] so she left very unhappy. But yeah, so I think that’s, that’s [00:48:10] probably one of the.

Payman Langroudi: I like it, but not a lot.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have you got a more juicy [00:48:15] story?

Kathryn Bell: A more juicy.

Payman Langroudi: Story? Like something actually goes wrong.

Kathryn Bell: I’ve never had anything like a vascular [00:48:20] occlusion. Never. I’ve been very lucky.

Payman Langroudi: Never had anyone try and sue you. [00:48:25]

Kathryn Bell: Uh.

Payman Langroudi: For facial?

Kathryn Bell: No.

Payman Langroudi: Body dysmorphia [00:48:30] is interesting. Yeah. Because I know someone who’s got body dysmorphia and he he he’s fully aware. [00:48:35]

Kathryn Bell: Oh, interesting.

Payman Langroudi: And he has things done in, in almost like [00:48:40] in a way that I don’t know if you, let’s say you want to give up alcohol or something, you go for one last [00:48:45] party or something. He’s like that. He’s like, once I fix my [00:48:50] ears, then I’m going to really have a go at, you know, understanding this. And it’s [00:48:55] and it’s a strange thing. It comes and goes, but then you’ve got other people who are undiagnosed, [00:49:00] if you like, massively. That’s the real problem.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s much more [00:49:05] prevalent, obviously within aesthetics because they are often the people [00:49:10] who seek treatments.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and often I heard you say in [00:49:15] the other pod that body dysmorphia has a link to sexual abuse as a child, but [00:49:20] any abuse as a child. Right. Bullying, that sort of thing. It’s anything, [00:49:25] anything that has anything to do with the way you look in any sense, I suppose.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Did [00:49:30] you do you have you had to go down that road asking those questions or.

Kathryn Bell: No. No, [00:49:35] because that’s not for me to do. My my job is to screen [00:49:40] and then refer.

Payman Langroudi: I was do you know Gabor, [00:49:45] mate?

Kathryn Bell: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: I was at his talk last night. Oh, really? And he was saying. He said, who [00:49:50] here has seen a specialist doctor? Almost everyone put their hands up. He [00:49:55] goes, who here has been asked by their specialist doctor what their childhood was like? And no [00:50:00] one had. And obviously he’s got that whole thing where he says, everything’s to do with your childhood.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, [00:50:05] yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But but it’s an interesting thing that we don’t, you know, we stick [00:50:10] to our own narrow area. And the more we specialise, the more we [00:50:15] stick to our area.

Kathryn Bell: So true. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but someone like you who’s, who’s got [00:50:20] the kind of the, some sort of psychology background might want to go into that. [00:50:25]

Kathryn Bell: Right. I mean, I do. I mean, I’m quite an open person myself. So, [00:50:30] you know, I mean, within limits with patients because you [00:50:35] have to have that professional line. But I do ask my patients, you know, what’s going [00:50:40] on at home. Mhm. And I know, for example, that this patient [00:50:45] who presented for treatment and I’m almost certain had [00:50:50] body dysmorphia. I know that her. She was caring [00:50:55] for her husband at the time. Um, and he was becoming increasingly [00:51:00] ill, so her world was almost becoming much smaller as a result. [00:51:05] Um, and I think that probably had a massive impact, um, for, for how [00:51:10] she was perceiving herself, um, because her role in life had changed [00:51:15] and she was basically her husband’s carer now. Um, and so I think, I mean, you [00:51:20] know, again, I’m not a psychiatrist, but that has to surely have some sort of play [00:51:25] in it. And maybe again, you know, that was something happened to her when she was younger and it was kind [00:51:30] of just triggering. Who knows. But, um, I think it’s you’re right. [00:51:35] We need to have an awareness, but it isn’t our job to, to diagnose in [00:51:40] that kind of.

Payman Langroudi: What percentage of your work is facial and [00:51:45] what percentage is just regular dentistry.

Kathryn Bell: So at the moment I [00:51:50] do around about 27 clinical hours, um.

Payman Langroudi: In [00:51:55] total.

Kathryn Bell: In total. Um, and facial [00:52:00] aesthetic treatments probably makes up around about two hours a week. [00:52:05] Now. In the past I’ve done more. Um, but we are in [00:52:10] a, an area, so I’ve only been at the practice for about two and a half years. [00:52:15] And part of the reason I was brought in was to grow that area. I’m not the only [00:52:20] aesthetics practitioner within that business. Oh, really? Um, and so, um, [00:52:25] myself and Emma are actively trying to grow this and this is why we’re doing kind of our, [00:52:30] our skincare evening, where we’re going to bring out the skin scanner [00:52:35] and try and focus on that element of the facial [00:52:40] aesthetics, because that is often it just reduces people fear about [00:52:45] aesthetics. So we are trying to grow.

Payman Langroudi: Do you only work in this one? Colosseum dental.

Kathryn Bell: Practice.

Payman Langroudi: Yes, [00:52:50] but you could you could work in a facial aesthetics place, right? Yeah. And I’ve been doing a lot more.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. [00:52:55] And I’ve worked in facial aesthetics clinics previously. Um, [00:53:00] I still, I still like doing dentistry. I just want to [00:53:05] grow the facial aesthetics a bit more. And that’s, and that’s what my, what my current role [00:53:10] is, is there for is to kind of grow that field.

Payman Langroudi: And this col role that you’ve [00:53:15] got within Colosseum. So first of all, how did that come about?

Kathryn Bell: So [00:53:20] Fazeela asked me to do that. And again, because, um, the facial aesthetics [00:53:25] had jumped quite a lot. So I started within the business in June 24th. [00:53:30] And then for the year of 2025, the facial [00:53:35] aesthetics had really grown within the business. Um, and so that was on the back of that. [00:53:40] She asked me to, to be the col for, for the business. And [00:53:45] part of that role is kind of working with suppliers and, um, training [00:53:50] providers and also developing our own training so [00:53:55] that we can concentrate on, um, because I think at the moment, I think there’s around [00:54:00] about 30 dentists who offer facial aesthetics within the business. [00:54:05] Um, and there’s seven, I can’t remember how many dentists are within [00:54:10] 80 practices. There’s 80 practices. Yeah. So there’s a lot of dentists, but they’re not [00:54:15] active within with the facial aesthetics. So I want to try and build it and [00:54:20] work on how we can get that. I almost my vision [00:54:25] is to have almost the aesthetic side to be, I want [00:54:30] Colosseum dental to be synonymous with dentists providing aesthetics. [00:54:35] So I just want people to almost think that when they hear Colosseum Dental, that’s [00:54:40] the. They’re the dentists to go to.

Payman Langroudi: Challenging though, because Colosseum’s practices historically [00:54:45] were very NHS. Right. So you know, it’s it’s a big challenge to pull [00:54:50] that off.

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely. Absolutely. But then, you know, it’s [00:54:55] all about people’s priorities, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: And what [00:55:00] you can change these things. Of course. Of course. My priority is to get Colosseum talking about enlightened. Right? [00:55:05] Yes.

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Good people at Colosseum.

Kathryn Bell: Oh.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know Charlotte as well?

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, I love [00:55:10] Charlotte. Yeah. She lives down the road from me.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Absolutely amazing. What’s her role? The COO? [00:55:15] Yes, chief operating officer.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant. And so I’d like to go into this women [00:55:20] in dentistry kind of talking about Colosseum looks like dominated by women. Yeah. So, [00:55:25] um, hopefully you might go up the ranks as well. Are you [00:55:30] interested in that.

Kathryn Bell: Oh absolutely. I can see, I mean.

Payman Langroudi: A management role.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. I mean I, I [00:55:35] love educating. I love educating and I, and I’d [00:55:40] love to grow into a leadership role. Um, again, kind of focusing on helping [00:55:45] other clinicians and helping to develop them [00:55:50] within their own roles. I would love that. I’d absolutely love that.

Payman Langroudi: And you said you’re going [00:55:55] to do a course internally.

Kathryn Bell: Yes. That’s my, that’s my aim. Um, so I’ve, I’ve built [00:56:00] a course and hoping to. So it’s an aesthetics based course, [00:56:05] kind of. Um, and I’m hoping to deliver that in kind of January, [00:56:10] February time.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s the start. Yeah, absolutely.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. So it’s already [00:56:15] been built. It’s there, it’s ready to go. Um, but yeah, delivering that hopefully in kind of January, [00:56:20] February time.

Payman Langroudi: So what’s your view of women in dentistry right now? I mean, as a, what would [00:56:25] you say state of the union wise? You’ve been in, you’ve been in what, 20 years.

Kathryn Bell: 21 [00:56:30] years now? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So compared to when you qualified to now, do [00:56:35] you think we’re heading in the right direction? Do you think there’s plenty more to do. Do you think? What [00:56:40] I mean? How? How much should we do? Are you. Are you in favour of women [00:56:45] only lists for jobs or you know how how how much should we do? [00:56:50]

Kathryn Bell: It’s about. It is very much. I, I am very much about [00:56:55] equality, I think, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But do you think there isn’t.

Kathryn Bell: Well, to a certain extent. [00:57:00] So my year at Leeds was the first year where the female [00:57:05] students outnumbered the male students. And I think dentistry [00:57:10] on the ground with patient facing clinicians is now [00:57:15] predominated by women. I think there’s a higher percentage of women. But [00:57:20] as you get further up the ladder into kind of practice, ownership and leadership roles, it’s [00:57:25] heavily weighted the other way. Um, and I, and again, coming down to [00:57:30] kind of psychology, is that down to the fact that women do take career breaks for [00:57:35] having families, you know, we are still the primary caregiver [00:57:40] in the majority of cases, not in all cases, but in the majority of cases. [00:57:45] Um, and so, you know, is that one of the things that is great about dentistry is [00:57:50] there isn’t a pay gap. Female dentists are paid the same as male dentists. It is [00:57:55] exactly the same. Um, whereas obviously in other industries that isn’t the case. And [00:58:00] people with the same job will be paid differently.

Payman Langroudi: That’s real.

Kathryn Bell: What’s that.

Payman Langroudi: Pay.

Kathryn Bell: Gap?

Payman Langroudi: I [00:58:05] don’t believe in it.

Kathryn Bell: Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Because if that was real, then you’d just hire women, wouldn’t you? [00:58:10] If that. If that was the case.

Kathryn Bell: Well, you’d.

Payman Langroudi: Think, why would you hire a.

Kathryn Bell: Man? No, I agree.

Payman Langroudi: If you could pay a woman less. [00:58:15]

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. No I agree.

Payman Langroudi: I think I think women do earn less because of what you said before.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. In [00:58:20] terms of childcare and all that career breaks.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but [00:58:25] I don’t know, man. I think dentistry is one of the areas where women are very much as [00:58:30] equal. Yeah. I would put a sort of proviso to that, a caveat to that. And I’d say that [00:58:35] we’ve got a huge issue with women in dentistry, but not amongst dentists. No, [00:58:40] I’d say amongst the nurses, the receptionist, the hygienists, some of the ways they talk [00:58:45] to, maybe even by women, I don’t know. Yeah, I don’t know. There’s a massive hierarchy issue. [00:58:50]

Kathryn Bell: I hate.

Payman Langroudi: That dentistry. And one of the things I love about corporates is that there is a good career [00:58:55] pathway.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, you can start as a trainee nurse and end up as chief operating [00:59:00] officer of a corporate if you play your cards right. If you’re in the right corporate. Whereas a lot of times [00:59:05] in practices, one of my bugbears is I talked to some dentists and they literally don’t want [00:59:10] their nurse to be ambitious because.

Kathryn Bell: They’re.

Payman Langroudi: Nurses to stay there and be a nurse. You know, [00:59:15] by the way, some some nurses want that too. They put their own lives, they want to turn up, do their [00:59:20] job and leave.

Kathryn Bell: Brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: But your reflections on what it was like 20 years ago, [00:59:25] what it’s like today, where you’d like to see improvement.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. So again, it’s more about [00:59:30] that career progression for female dentists, clinicians, And [00:59:35] I think, um, and certainly for myself, obviously with having Fazila as [00:59:40] our CMO having. Yeah. Brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: So inspirational.

Kathryn Bell: So, so inspirational [00:59:45] because it’s that kind of view. It’s like, well, if she can do [00:59:50] it, then there is proof that we can do it. You know, we, we can get into leadership [00:59:55] and Charlotte as well, you know, we can get, we, there’s, there’s leadership roles for women [01:00:00] within dentistry. And I think that’s, I think that’s a big deal because it’s [01:00:05] one thing being told it, but it’s another to see it. And, um, yeah, I mean, I, I [01:00:10] really love the, the team within Colosseum is that [01:00:15] they’re, they’re all very approachable. It’s not like there isn’t that [01:00:20] hierarchy.

Payman Langroudi: I think they’ve tried really hard on the retention of dentists side, because [01:00:25] not long ago that people were leaving.

Kathryn Bell: Big churn rate.

Payman Langroudi: Big, [01:00:30] big churn. I mean, she’s she said 60% in two years or something, and [01:00:35] now it’s completely been turned around.

Kathryn Bell: I think it’s really low. I can’t remember. Something like 11%. [01:00:40] I think it is now.

Payman Langroudi: And one interesting thing is that as a corporate, even as [01:00:45] a single practitioner, maybe your your customer is the dentist, not [01:00:50] the patient. And of course, the customer is the patient. But, but the customer is the dentist as.

Kathryn Bell: A certain [01:00:55] extent. Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Especially as a corporate. Right. Because there’s this sort of issue with.

Kathryn Bell: You haven’t got [01:01:00] a business without your dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. Um, I mean, [01:01:05] like, I mean, you haven’t got a business without your patients, but you haven’t got a business without, without your dentists [01:01:10] as a well corporate or DSO or whatever you want to call them.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me, why do [01:01:15] you think you’ve never gone down the road of opening your own practice or buying your own practice? I mean, this [01:01:20] this comes down to this question of, you know, why aren’t more women owners?

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: What do you [01:01:25] reckon it is?

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely. Right.

Payman Langroudi: There are the the six kids going for four [01:01:30] step kids and two of your room.

Kathryn Bell: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, yes, that has absolutely [01:01:35] played a part. Um financially as well as anything. But I mean my, my husband [01:01:40] is a mortgage advisor. So you are absolutely right. Why haven’t we opened our own business. [01:01:45] And I think.

Payman Langroudi: It raised the money. Right.

Kathryn Bell: Exactly, exactly. Especially at the moment [01:01:50] I think it’s. Isn’t it. 0% finance on um. Yeah. He [01:01:55] was telling, he was telling me that um but I think it’s boils down to timing. The timing just hasn’t [01:02:00] been there. Um and it’s only really now [01:02:05] at 45, nearly 46 that, that kind of leadership role. [01:02:10] But now having worked within a corporate, I feel that I’d [01:02:15] like to almost do it on a bigger scale if I can, you know, that kind of, um, [01:02:20] leading from within type of.

Payman Langroudi: Certainly you can feel like you’ve [01:02:25] had more impact. Exactly. 80 practices.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, exactly. So I [01:02:30] feel that that might be the area that I’m growing into now, for sure.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:02:35] no regrets on that side? No.

Kathryn Bell: No, I and again, I think this boils down [01:02:40] to what happened to me at 17. I don’t have any regrets because I wouldn’t [01:02:45] be the person that I am now if I had made different choices along my life. [01:02:50]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get on to mistakes.

Kathryn Bell: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: Usually I talk about clinical mistakes, [01:02:55] but I think we’ve kind of been there. But. But whatever comes to mind. What would you reckon an error [01:03:00] that you’ve made in your career?

Kathryn Bell: Um, there was an error [01:03:05] that I made. Well, again.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, I’m up for another clinical mistake. If if you don’t want to go for facial aesthetics.

Kathryn Bell: No [01:03:10] that’s fine. This was this was down to, again, kind of career based. Um, [01:03:15] and it’s only now with hindsight that I don’t necessarily see it as [01:03:20] an error, but I think that’s more to do with the fact that I like to learn from things that haven’t necessarily [01:03:25] gone the right way. Um, but it was Following the birth of [01:03:30] my son, who’s now 12. And, um, I kind of got headhunted, [01:03:35] so I was working in a very, very busy NHS practice, [01:03:40] and I had been thinking about kind of making a move towards doing more private work, um, [01:03:45] having previously. So my history was that obviously I went to university [01:03:50] at Leeds. Um, and I lived and worked in Yorkshire for five [01:03:55] years after that. And then my now husband and I got together, he was playing rugby [01:04:00] in bath at the time, and it was much easier for me, for me to get professionally. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:04:05] really?

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Bless him. He’s broken now. But he had a long professional [01:04:10] rugby career. Um, and so it was easier for me to move up sticks and move down [01:04:15] here. Um and so I went from being in a predominantly private practice back [01:04:20] to working in the NHS, which was okay at the time. Um, but I’d reached a point where I was like, [01:04:25] I, I’m a bit broken from this now and and and then I got pregnant with my [01:04:30] now 12 year old. And I kind of got headhunted while I was on maternity [01:04:35] leave for a start up. But it was a Start-Up within [01:04:40] a corporate. So it was at a, a health centre in [01:04:45] Bristol. Um and they’d previously had a um, [01:04:50] I think it was a breast care centre within the building and they [01:04:55] changed it into a dental service and they were looking for a dentist, [01:05:00] a nurse and a hygienist. Um and so I think [01:05:05] it was via LinkedIn that they reached, I can’t remember how they, I think it was that they reached out to me and [01:05:10] I was like, yeah, great timing. Let’s, let’s have a look at this. And so I [01:05:15] joined this practice and, uh, I was [01:05:20] on a day rate of £300 a day.

Kathryn Bell: And it was [01:05:25] meant to be for the first three months because they were like, you know, with the, um, [01:05:30] the schemes that we’ve got going, we’re confident that you’re going to be booked up. And I was only [01:05:35] returning, I was looking at doing three days a week, um, because my son was only a few months old at that point. [01:05:40] Um, and so three days a week and hopefully within [01:05:45] about three months, my days would be full. Um, but after three months, my days [01:05:50] were still basically seeing one patient a day and I was like, look, I can’t make [01:05:55] an income on this. You need to keep me on the day rate for longer. So they did. They extended the day [01:06:00] rates six months later, maybe five patients a day. And [01:06:05] I was like, I can’t make a living from this. And in the end, I ended up staying there. I [01:06:10] think about 18 months. And still at the end of that, I, I [01:06:15] just didn’t have a full day at all. So I just the [01:06:20] planning or marketing or whatever that had gone into opening. [01:06:25] It, and it must have cost so much money.

Payman Langroudi: To the stress of private. Right? Yeah. A lot of people think you [01:06:30] leave the NHS and you just as busy doing much more expensive dentistry, but private [01:06:35] is full of that stress, right? Yes. Not enough patients.

Kathryn Bell: Big time.

Payman Langroudi: Sitting around a lot. [01:06:40] Yeah. And as dentists sitting around if you feel so wrong. Yeah.

Kathryn Bell: I [01:06:45] just think it’s not built into us that that doing nothing.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you could write, you could do [01:06:50] something, but somehow you’re just sitting there.

Kathryn Bell: Staring.

Payman Langroudi: Waiting job like that. Luckily, [01:06:55] I thought thought up enlightened in that in that time. But but it was just a lucky thing. [01:07:00] It wasn’t. Yeah. It’s such I get asked this all the time. You know, young dentists [01:07:05] want to avoid NHS altogether. And then they’ll say, I’ve been offered a job where there’s no patients. [01:07:10] What do you think?

Kathryn Bell: How do you get experience though? It’s tricky, isn’t [01:07:15] it?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah. Although I don’t normally give that advice of you have to do NHS. [01:07:20]

Kathryn Bell: No, no no.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I mean some people do and some people don’t. It depends the part of country you’re at, the time you’re [01:07:25] at and all that. Yeah. Um, the idea of I get my experience on these NHS [01:07:30] patients and then I’ll use it for my private. In a way, I find that weird a bit strange, [01:07:35] you know, although it is good experience. It’s good experience.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. I mean, in [01:07:40] all sorts of ways it’s, it’s a good experience.

Payman Langroudi: But I think it’s a bad experience as well because it gives you sort [01:07:45] of bad habits as well because you’re rushing all the time.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. That’s that’s well, it wasn’t so [01:07:50] much the rushing that I found difficult. Um, but I reached, I reached a point where [01:07:55] I burnt out in the NHS mentally. Yeah, absolutely. I mean mentally, physically, I [01:08:00] think every, every level I was just.

Payman Langroudi: Do you want to talk about.

Kathryn Bell: It. Yeah. Happy to happy to um [01:08:05] so I mean, I was, it was, you know, standard NHS practice like 30, 40 [01:08:10] patients a day. Um, I had, I think I worked 830 [01:08:15] till 530. Lucky, like many lucky to get a lunch break because you’re running late. [01:08:20] Um, and I had Wednesdays off. I can’t remember if I had a half day or a full [01:08:25] day off on a Wednesday, but I know I had some time off on a Wednesday. Um, and I think it’s, [01:08:30] it’s difficult because on the NHS, there’s, there’s pressure from [01:08:35] every, every aspect. So there’s, there’s pressure from the practice owners, [01:08:40] you know, you’ve got to deliver, there’s pressure from the patients, there’s pressure from yourself. [01:08:45] Um, and I found it really tricky because there’s [01:08:50] also that aspect of you’ve also got to convert patients to try [01:08:55] and almost sell private treatment. And, and [01:09:00] that, that I found really difficult to mentally because. [01:09:05]

Payman Langroudi: Especially when the rules say, you can’t say one’s better than the other and all of that.

Kathryn Bell: Exactly. [01:09:10] And, and that was the bit that I found hardest. And the, the. [01:09:15] And with private dentistry, you offer the best treatment. [01:09:20] You know, you recommend as as women, so you recommend the best treatment [01:09:25] for that patient. You discuss other options, but you are allowed to say, I think [01:09:30] for you in these circumstances stances, this would be your best option. And [01:09:35] I trying to have conversations with patients [01:09:40] in ten minute appointments.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a, it’s a nightmare. Yeah. I take [01:09:45] my hat off to anyone who manages to pull it off.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. Same here. I have [01:09:50] so much respect for dentists within the NHS because I couldn’t do [01:09:55] it. I mean, we.

Payman Langroudi: Did it for many years, right?

Kathryn Bell: I did, I did um.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me about the burnout moment. [01:10:00]

Kathryn Bell: So again, I think there was a point where, um, I was, I [01:10:05] was just so burnt out and it showed in my ability to turn up for work. So [01:10:10] I was taking sick days where there were days where, I mean, I was just sick all the time. [01:10:15] Um, because I was just every level Physically [01:10:20] burns out. Emotionally burnt out.

Payman Langroudi: Couldn’t get out of bed.

Kathryn Bell: Couldn’t get out of bed, you know, [01:10:25] and, and to the point where I was actually genuinely ill with like one [01:10:30] thing. I mean, I’m prone to getting ill anyway. Um, but this was and [01:10:35] bear in mind that I am the person that at 17, literally dragged myself to school every day when [01:10:40] I had horrendous headaches.

Payman Langroudi: Did you link those to sort of the mental [01:10:45] side of those two events?

Kathryn Bell: Never. No, no. But I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so [01:10:50] what you’re saying is that you actually could get through.

Kathryn Bell: At.

Payman Langroudi: 17 stress and headache to get [01:10:55] yourself to work, get yourself to school. Yeah.

Kathryn Bell: But then when I hit burnout, I couldn’t, [01:11:00] I just couldn’t, I was just.

Payman Langroudi: What did.

Kathryn Bell: You do?

Payman Langroudi: Um, did you see a doctor?

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. Yeah, [01:11:05] absolutely. Yeah. I was prescribed antidepressants. Um, and [01:11:10] I, to be honest, I just struggled on and then obviously I fell pregnant [01:11:15] and I think. And then I got headhunted. So it just came.

Payman Langroudi: This was around that time?

Kathryn Bell: Yeah [01:11:20] yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So it came at the right time.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, yeah. And again, it is like I say.

Payman Langroudi: Your [01:11:25] baby saved your life.

Kathryn Bell: My baby saved my life. Thank you. Zander.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:11:30] interesting.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. Bless him. He’s he’s a he’s he’s a great guy. Um, but [01:11:35] yeah, so it was, it was just one of those things again, where things just kind of slotted [01:11:40] into place and, um.

Payman Langroudi: Should take a role in Colosseum around that too. You [01:11:45] know.

Kathryn Bell: I’d love to.

Payman Langroudi: Because there’s a lot of NHS going on Colosseum.

Kathryn Bell: Well this but.

Payman Langroudi: This is there may be, there [01:11:50] may be, you know, there’s 30 facial aesthetics practices. There may be 30 people in Colosseum in the same. [01:11:55]

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Sort of.

Kathryn Bell: Experience.

Payman Langroudi: That you’re.

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely all [01:12:00] heading that way.

Payman Langroudi: And I would look at that, you know, I would look at that, you know, sometimes [01:12:05] in, in work, like I do this podcast, right? And, you know, [01:12:10] we don’t even take adverts.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: On this podcast. Yeah. We, we could, [01:12:15] we could all the time people are asking and I even change that situation, I don’t know. But [01:12:20] this is the bit of my work that gives the least financially. And [01:12:25] yet, I’d say it’s the most valuable bit of my work as well. And [01:12:30] often that can be the the thing, you know. Sometimes the best things about [01:12:35] something are the bits you can’t really measure.

Kathryn Bell: I agree. Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: A lot of times, you know, [01:12:40] you’ll see in corporates and you know, I’ve got my my CEO is also used [01:12:45] to be the CFO. Right. Yeah. So when, when, when you, when you have, uh, financial people running [01:12:50] the show, they want measurable KPIs.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And often the [01:12:55] magic is in the immeasurable. Yeah. You know, and you might find that you find, you [01:13:00] find meaning in, in that work. Yeah. Because you’ve been through it yourself, I think.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. I [01:13:05] mean, I mean, my life experience is, is quite unique. Yeah. Um, [01:13:10] and as I’ve said, kind of touched on before, um, the [01:13:15] psychology a level that I did is is still to this day the most valuable one. [01:13:20] Um, and I remember actually at the time, um, my [01:13:25] psychology A-level teacher saying to me, uh, would I consider going [01:13:30] into medicine and psychiatry? And I was like, I don’t think it’s for me. Um, and [01:13:35] I still, you know, I still don’t necessarily think that’s right, but certainly some sort of mentorship [01:13:40] or coaching. I could certainly, you know, I, I’m quite [01:13:45] a people person. I like talking.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got a cousin who’s a psychiatrist in the US, great life. [01:13:50]

Kathryn Bell: Really.

Payman Langroudi: Great life, fantastic life. Most of her work is on Zoom. [01:13:55]

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. As it would be now. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s wonderful. She can go to Italy on holiday and [01:14:00] still earn loads of money like.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. But I, [01:14:05] I do, I like, I mean, the same reason a lot of dentists get into dentistry is [01:14:10] because they want to help people, anybody getting into sort of healthcare and maybe I’m at that stage where actually [01:14:15] I want to help other clinicians, not just patients.

Payman Langroudi: Give back a little.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, [01:14:20] definitely. Yeah. And I think that’s part of the reason that I I’m embracing the [01:14:25] col role as well is that side of things.

Payman Langroudi: A couple of quick fire [01:14:30] questions I’m interested in. What’s the best lecture you’ve been to or maybe [01:14:35] the best lecturer or the best course.

Kathryn Bell: Do you know. Um I’m actually going to [01:14:40] take you back way, way, way, way back to when I was a student. And [01:14:45] um Professor Callum Youngson was actually our [01:14:50] restorative. He was a restorative consultant. He was our restorative tutor. And [01:14:55] I can’t remember what the lecture was actually meant to be about, [01:15:00] but um, and again, it stuck with me my [01:15:05] entire life. And you’ll understand why when I, when I explain, I remember he [01:15:10] asked, there was 53 of us in the lecture hall and he said, okay, as [01:15:15] a dentist, who is the most important person? Obviously Hans went up [01:15:20] and patient the patients, the most important person. He’s like, no, you’re wrong. And they’re like the nurse. [01:15:25] The nurse is the most important. No, no, you’re wrong. The most important person is you. [01:15:30] And you have to look after yourself so you can look after your patients. [01:15:35] It’s that old oxygen mask theory. You know, you’ve [01:15:40] got to put your oxygen mask on before you can help other people. And then he said, [01:15:45] okay, so in the hierarchy of your life, who comes next? And again, patient [01:15:50] comes next. Patient. No, no, it’s not the patient. Your family comes next because to your [01:15:55] patients, you can be replaced by another dentist, but you’re irreplaceable [01:16:00] to your family. So and I think that is that I mean, it’s, [01:16:05] you know, it wasn’t the whole lecture, but it was a big part of the lecture. And that has [01:16:10] really stuck with me. And, and I think that’s something that it is very easy [01:16:15] for us to forget when we’re in the day to day running of our [01:16:20] lives as a dentist. But it’s prioritising. [01:16:25] I mean, you have to. And then, you know, after that it’s probably the patient and work, but you [01:16:30] can’t you can’t do your job without your health and your family cannot do [01:16:35] without you.

Payman Langroudi: So this, this came up from one of my, my school friends. He’s a big time [01:16:40] surgeon at the Marsden cancer surgeon. Yeah. And he’s busy, as you can imagine. [01:16:45] Yeah, yeah. You know, there’s people he does operations that hardly anyone else in the country can do. [01:16:50] Yeah. Then his wife got breast cancer. Yeah. And this guy can never take time off. [01:16:55] Yeah. Yeah.

Kathryn Bell: And but because of the waiting lists and absolutely everything. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:17:00] for the first time, he took three weeks off. Mhm. And you know what you’re saying there is, right? Yeah. [01:17:05] At the end of the day, the priorities have to be there.

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely, Absolutely. [01:17:10] Because, I mean, hats off to him. Amazing. He’s probably not replaceable in [01:17:15] that sense of the word. But to your family, there’s there’s nobody else there is, [01:17:20] you know.

Payman Langroudi: So that lecture was in university was it.

Kathryn Bell: Was at university. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about the best [01:17:25] facial aesthetics training you’ve had.

Kathryn Bell: Okay. So that so I did my foundation [01:17:30] training. Um, when I was, I was working in Bristol and I did foundation [01:17:35] toxins, foundation fillers and I didn’t again, I didn’t really [01:17:40] use it. I kind of dabbled a little bit here and there, but it was only [01:17:45] when, um, Tim Eldridge, who just [01:17:50] is such a lovely guy and he runs a practice in Cheltenham and he’s got a training academy as well. [01:17:55] It’s called Myface. And he did um a training [01:18:00] course with one of the fillers companies and it was facial aesthetics for dentists, [01:18:05] but it was just like he’s again, he’s just one of those really calm people. [01:18:10] He kind of took the fear out of it and made it really tangible. [01:18:15] And it was more about and this was the bit that was really important. It was about looking at [01:18:20] the whole face rather than looking isolated features, which is what foundation [01:18:25] training often does is it’s looking at individual features rather than actually looking at how everything [01:18:30] fits together. And it was then from there that I did quite a lot of training with him, [01:18:35] um, because he just made it so approachable and real. [01:18:40] And um, so I hats off to him. I’ve, you know, he’s probably the [01:18:45] main reason why I kind of went into the facial aesthetics field. Yeah. A lovely guy, [01:18:50] really nice guy.

Payman Langroudi: What about if I asked resource like what’s your how do you keep up?

Kathryn Bell: Oh, so [01:18:55] a number of different ways. But my favourite resource is something we talked about earlier and that’s the Protrusive podcast. [01:19:00] Yeah, I mean, I love that. I mean, jazz is just so wonderful. Oh he [01:19:05] is isn’t he? He’s great. Yeah. Such just such a genuine giving. [01:19:10] Um, and again, has that ability to bring people into his world. [01:19:15] Um, and yeah, absolutely. I wouldn’t be without the producer. In fact, I was listening to it on the way here. [01:19:20] So that’s what I often do when I’m driving or I’m going anywhere as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I keep up with clinical [01:19:25] with that way as well because I stopped practising a long time ago.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:19:30] been a lovely conversation. I’ve really enjoyed it. Thank you. We’re gonna we’re gonna end with the usual questions that we ask everyone. [01:19:35] It’s a fantasy dinner party.

Kathryn Bell: Ah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: So three guests, dead [01:19:40] or alive?

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. So first off, I’m going to go for a really sentimental [01:19:45] one. And I would invite my mum. My mum died when my daughter was four months old. [01:19:50] So. And obviously, as I’ve already talked about, she’s a massive rock to me during [01:19:55] some of the hardest parts of my life. So I would give anything to have just a few more hours [01:20:00] with her. And then alongside my mum, I would have Tina Turner.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry [01:20:05] she had you when she was a teenager?

Kathryn Bell: Uh, no, she had my brother. Yeah, yeah, but then [01:20:10] my mom had breast cancer when I was 14.

Payman Langroudi: Is that right?

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, yeah. Um, so that was [01:20:15] that was, you know, as a teenager when you’re going, I mean, I was being bullied at school at [01:20:20] the time as well. So that was yeah, that was really rough. Um, but yeah, so she had breast cancer when I [01:20:25] was 14. And then when I was 17, I had a brain tumour. So we had a bit of a rough time for [01:20:30] a few years and laughing about it now. But yeah, not, not.

Payman Langroudi: And your dad was around all the [01:20:35] time.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. My dad was around all the time.

Payman Langroudi: Tina Turner.

Kathryn Bell: Tina Turner because I [01:20:40] think.

Payman Langroudi: I watched the musical. Did you watch that?

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, honestly.

Payman Langroudi: Very good.

Kathryn Bell: What a life.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kathryn Bell: Um, [01:20:45] and talk about rising from the ashes to build a career in her 40s. I mean, the stories [01:20:50] she’s got to tell. I would love to just chat to her, I think, and find out a bit more [01:20:55] about that. Um, so and then for a little bit of light relief, let’s go [01:21:00] for Bob Mortimer completely out there. Have you watched um, what’s it called? Last one laughing [01:21:05] on Amazon Prime. No.

Payman Langroudi: Is it good?

Kathryn Bell: If you if you if you’re having [01:21:10] a bit of a rubbish day and you just need to really laugh your socks off.

Payman Langroudi: I like him, [01:21:15] I do like him.

Kathryn Bell: Honestly. Last one.

Payman Langroudi: Laughing.

Kathryn Bell: It’s um, the premise is that there’s, [01:21:20] I think there’s 12 comedians locked in a room for six hours [01:21:25] and they’re not allowed to laugh, but they’ve got to try and make everybody else laugh. Brilliant. It’s [01:21:30] hilarious. So it’s broken down into, I think six episodes. Each one’s [01:21:35] like an hour. So it’s basically those six hours that they’re in there. It’s honestly [01:21:40] one of the funniest things I’ve watched in a long time. So yeah, if you’re ever having a down day and you [01:21:45] just need something to make you laugh, stick an episode of that on, I highly recommend. So yeah, I think I’d have Bob [01:21:50] Mortimer because, you know, Tina Turner, that might get a bit heavy. Um, [01:21:55] so let’s have a little bit of light relief as well.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe one last question. What grinds your gears? What pisses you [01:22:00] off in dentistry?

Kathryn Bell: Um. Oh. What pisses me off [01:22:05] in dentistry. Um. I [01:22:10] don’t like lateness.

Payman Langroudi: For staff, you mean, or just.

Kathryn Bell: In general? I [01:22:15] just, I mean, and I hate being late myself if I’m ever late. I’m [01:22:20] so apologies if I. I mean, I think it’s partly because I am [01:22:25] on the you know, I understand the impact of it to other people, but if I’m ever late for anything, [01:22:30] I am so.

Payman Langroudi: Profuse.

Kathryn Bell: I’m mortified. And I say, [01:22:35] look, I’m so sorry. I’ll rebook. I know, I’m so sorry, but I think [01:22:40] it’s when people turn up to something late and are just they [01:22:45] don’t, you know, just make assumptions that it’s okay. It’s like, [01:22:50] but you’re you’re I mean, time is our most valuable commodity.

Payman Langroudi: Some people off more than others. Yeah. [01:22:55] I’ve got my, my partner. If a member of staff is five minutes late to work, it breaks his heart. [01:23:00]

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And for me it doesn’t bother.

Kathryn Bell: But time, time, time is our [01:23:05] most valuable commodity. Out of everything that we have.

Payman Langroudi: Respect doesn’t it? It shows an element of respect. [01:23:10]

Kathryn Bell: But I think it’s I mean, if like, again, if somebody turns up late and they’re super apologetic, [01:23:15] that’s completely different. But if somebody turns up late and they’re just like, yeah, nonchalant.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kathryn Bell: Then then [01:23:20] it kind of yeah, that that annoys me.

Payman Langroudi: That’s interesting. I like that. I’ve never heard that one before. I [01:23:25] thought you were gonna say, oh, dentists, who do you know do too much Instagram or something? [01:23:30]

Kathryn Bell: No, not at all. You do. You boo. Um, but yeah, I’d say.

Payman Langroudi: What do [01:23:35] you think of awards?

Kathryn Bell: Um. Oh, I know this has been something you’ve been talking about again. [01:23:40] You know, it’s each to their own. It’s not something I’ve ever really gotten into. And again, for a lot of the reasons [01:23:45] that I think you’ve spoken about in that it is all about [01:23:50] pushing yourself forward. And you can have the best dentist in the world just in a [01:23:55] little back room somewhere up in Bradford, just doing their own thing and doing amazing work. [01:24:00] And nobody’s shouting about it because they’re so busy that they don’t have time [01:24:05] to submit an application.

Payman Langroudi: But what I’m not cool with is the fact that a lot [01:24:10] of them have nothing to do with clinical work at all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you could be, you could be crowned [01:24:15] best young dentist North, whatever. And no one’s even asked a question about clinical. [01:24:20] Yeah. Whereas from the patient’s perspective, when I see best young dentists, I’m going [01:24:25] to think, well, this guy knows his clinical. Yeah.

Kathryn Bell: But it could be their charity work.

Payman Langroudi: Or.

Kathryn Bell: It could be. Yeah. [01:24:30]

Payman Langroudi: Although, you know, I’m smart enough to know if I if I see best curry London, it’s not [01:24:35] necessarily the best curry in London. But it just that that grinds my gears.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kathryn Bell: No I [01:24:40] get that. I think it’s yeah. You’ve got to keep in mind, I [01:24:45] think when you’re looking at these things from an outside. How well represented. [01:24:50]

Payman Langroudi: I’m all for marketing. Yeah. I think there is enough marketing um, [01:24:55] in our area. So I’m a bit torn, you know, because it’s definitely good for marketing. [01:25:00]

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah yeah yeah. No, absolutely. There’s it’s one of those things there’s there’s [01:25:05] positives and negatives to it isn’t there for, for lots of different reasons. [01:25:10] Um, yeah, massive marketing plus. [01:25:15] But then the reality of it, I’m not, I’m [01:25:20] not against them. I’m not against them, but I don’t know if I’d.

Payman Langroudi: Enjoy some of the parties. [01:25:25]

Kathryn Bell: Who doesn’t enjoy a party, who doesn’t enjoy a party?

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive [01:25:30] pleasure. Thank you so much for coming all this way and being so open. Thanks a lot.

Kathryn Bell: Oh thank you, I’ve enjoyed it.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:25:35] for listening guys. Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure you tune in for future episodes. [01:25:40] Hit subscribe in iTunes or Google Play or whatever platform it is. [01:25:45] And you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you would, um, give.

Payman Langroudi: Us a six star rating. [01:25:50]

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. That’s what I always leave my Uber driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks [01:25:55] a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast has been brought to you by Mini Smile Makeover. Mini Smile Makeover is a two day anterior [00:00:05] composite course led by the extraordinary talented doctor Dipesh Palmer. Two [00:00:10] days of full on, hands on composite training purely focussed [00:00:15] on anterior work, composite veneers, polishing, finishing, shade matching. You also [00:00:20] get a free enlightened kit. Plus we have a great time and a party in the middle. Find out the [00:00:25] dates mini Smile makeover.com. Now let’s get back to the podcast.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [00:00:40] in dentistry. Your hosts, [00:00:45] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:50] gives me great pleasure to welcome Dipali Dalia onto the podcast. It’s an amazing [00:00:55] story moving from general dentistry to specialist [00:01:00] periodontics, to the law and becoming a barrister. [00:01:05] And then it going sort of full circle and going back into perio. [00:01:10] Lovely to have you.

Dipali Dalia: Thank you so much for having me.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks for coming all this way with your knee.

Dipali Dalia: Oh, no. That’s my pleasure. [00:01:15] It’s good to get out, to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: I’m very interested in this idea of, you know, [00:01:20] motivation, you know, like what motivates [00:01:25] us to do what we do. Mhm. So a lot of us have parents sort [00:01:30] of pushed us this way or that. I remember mine, I had no idea. They said, try dentistry [00:01:35] like your uncle. I liked the guy. So I tried it. And that’s how it happened. Right, [00:01:40] right. But then motivations for what you want to achieve. And and we were [00:01:45] talking before the mics went on about contentment and this this sort of affair. And [00:01:50] so was it that you had you wanted to become a lawyer and your parents told [00:01:55] you to go to dentist or, you know, what was this itch you were trying to scratch?

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, well, that’s a really interesting one because I [00:02:00] was when I was about 13 or 14, I wanted to be a barrister then. Um, [00:02:05] I think possibly it’s not.

Payman Langroudi: Just look.

Dipali Dalia: Cool. I think it was, it [00:02:10] was about communication, about being able to fight someone’s argumentative. [00:02:15] I think, I mean, that’s the thing, you know, actually to be an effective barrister you shouldn’t [00:02:20] be argumentative. But there are probably in my in my teenage years, there probably was that element of, [00:02:25] you know, I want to I want to fight, I want to win my side of the argument kind of thing. Um, [00:02:30] and, you know, we were watching things like LA law at the time, weren’t we?

Payman Langroudi: That’s a blast [00:02:35] from the.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. Oh my God, I love that show. So, um, it was yeah, a [00:02:40] combination of things I suppose at that time. But then the bar wasn’t very diverse [00:02:45] then. And so I’d spoken to a few people who I think had scare [00:02:50] mongered a bit. I mean, now I see there are female Asian cases, you know, who are [00:02:55] my age. I could have done it, probably, but I was scared a little bit into, you know, [00:03:00] you’ll do all that, you’ll do all that education and then you won’t get you won’t get a tendency, [00:03:05] which is the equivalent of an associateship. And so that [00:03:10] made me think twice. Um, and then my dad [00:03:15] said, and then I thought, I know I’ll become a doctor. That sounds pretty cool.

Payman Langroudi: Were your parents lawyers or doctors? [00:03:20]

Dipali Dalia: My. No, my dad’s a pharmacist, was a pharmacist and had his own business. [00:03:25] So typical Gujarati Indian background business, you know. [00:03:30] So dad said, oh, why do you want to be a medic when you have to do all these long on calls? Why didn’t [00:03:35] you become a dentist? Because I said, I don’t want to become a pharmacist. Why don’t you become a dentist? Then you can have your [00:03:40] own business, you know. Oh. All right then. So I did some work experience. [00:03:45] Um, at.

Payman Langroudi: Where, where did you grow.

Dipali Dalia: Up? I grew up in Reigate, in Surrey.

Payman Langroudi: Still [00:03:50] there.

Dipali Dalia: Yes, I’m in Redhill now. Yeah. So just the town over. Um, I [00:03:55] kind of went back after living in London for a long time, so, um. But yeah. [00:04:00] And so dad arranged for me to do some work experience with a client of his who [00:04:05] was a dentist, who he used to supply medicines to. And um, it [00:04:10] was um, a kind of a very swish practice actually. It wasn’t the reality [00:04:15] of dentistry at that time. Ah, I worked there and I did some work experience there [00:04:20] and I thought, well, I could do this. You know, I didn’t probably really have any great. [00:04:25] Yeah, I will have a job at the end of it. That was the, that was the, um, [00:04:30] I think that was the main driver really. Um, I was quite good [00:04:35] with my hands, I suppose I, you know, and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Always, [00:04:40] always worked hard and was aiming for the best, you know, [00:04:45] pushed I suppose to I think early on, you know, it was almost [00:04:50] like in order to make my dad proud, you know, I had to do [00:04:55] well at school. You know, he was a busy man. And to get his attention, I found that was the most [00:05:00] effective way of getting his attention. But that kind of then became a part of who [00:05:05] I was that then I just, you know, just always challenging myself to, to be [00:05:10] the best. And yeah, studious kind of worked hard. I wasn’t, I wasn’t the brightest, but I [00:05:15] didn’t do too badly at school. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How do you reflect on that? I [00:05:20] mean, I don’t want to be silly about it, but like the conditional love that that happens [00:05:25] sometimes in that situation, but it’s a bit dramatic to call it good.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. I mean, I think.

Payman Langroudi: I think [00:05:30] we do it to our children too. I mean, I don’t think it’s.

Dipali Dalia: Intended as being.

Payman Langroudi: No, no.

Dipali Dalia: No, it’s [00:05:35] it’s the perception though. And it’s the thing that you see that, you know, what are my parents [00:05:40] going to it’s when kids act out, right. I’m not a parent. So but I I’ve you know, [00:05:45] seen enough my nieces, children’s friends, kids, etc. to [00:05:50] see that, you know, if you act out and you and you get the response, you’re going to act out [00:05:55] again because you’ll keep getting a response. Um, and at least it was, it was a positive thing, I [00:06:00] suppose, that, you know, elicited a response from, from my parents was doing well at school. [00:06:05] I think it’s a very, you know, an immigrant child, you know, [00:06:10] experience, isn’t it? Um, but, um, but yeah, it [00:06:15] was and then I say, as I say, it became sort of ingrained in my own character. And.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:06:20] are you the youngest?

Dipali Dalia: I’m the middle.

Payman Langroudi: Middle. Yeah.

Dipali Dalia: They’re three of us. So [00:06:25] I’ve got an older sister. She’s about seven years older than me and then a younger brother who’s 13 years younger [00:06:30] than me. So we’re.

Payman Langroudi: Those two end up.

Dipali Dalia: Doing we’re kind of, uh. So my sister’s a pharmacist, actually. Um, but [00:06:35] my brother’s a he’s a civil servant who works in the Foreign Office, so.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:06:40] but yeah, I guess by the time your brother comes along, it’s a whole different.

Dipali Dalia: Completely different, completely.

Payman Langroudi: You know, [00:06:45] they set up more, aren’t they, by that time.

Dipali Dalia: Well, I think also the opportunities that [00:06:50] were available.

Payman Langroudi: The world changed.

Dipali Dalia: The world changed. Like it wasn’t dentist, doctor, lawyer, engineer. It was. [00:06:55] Oh, well, actually, I’d never even thought of having a job in the civil service. It never even occurred [00:07:00] to me, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Um, I mean, it’s an interesting thing that the cycle [00:07:05] of recommending your kids to do medicine, dentistry. Um, I used to think, [00:07:10] no way am I going to do that to my kids. And now I’ve told my daughter, yeah, it’s a really good idea.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. [00:07:15]

Payman Langroudi: Well, and if we just keep on doing that. I mean, it’s a nice thing, right? You get medical [00:07:20] families. Mhm. At the same time, there’ll be no movies. There’d be no, you know, anything [00:07:25] interesting. If all of us end up being.

Dipali Dalia: Absolutely, absolutely. And actually, my brother [00:07:30] started off he did engineering at university, but with no intention of actually [00:07:35] becoming an engineer. He just enjoyed physics and maths and and then, you know, [00:07:40] and then he was open minded was just like, so now he’s kind of and he’s a linguist as well. He’s [00:07:45] proficient in French and Arabic through his work. And that’s nice. And it’s like, God, actually, [00:07:50] if I could rewind that, wouldn’t that would almost be something [00:07:55] I’d also be interested in doing, you know, learning languages or doing something completely different. [00:08:00]

Payman Langroudi: But you married an English guy.

Dipali Dalia: An Irish.

Payman Langroudi: Irish guy. How did that go down?

Dipali Dalia: Well, [00:08:05] I met him in a pub after.

Payman Langroudi: What did your.

Dipali Dalia: Parents oh, I see. Oh, yeah. [00:08:10] No. By the time I actually met him, I think they were just grateful that anyone was hoping to get married [00:08:15] to me. I met him when I was 36. I’d been eternally single up until that [00:08:20] point. No, no, they loved him. They absolutely loved him. My parents were because they came to this country when [00:08:25] they were very young. They were very liberal, actually. Um, and, you know, I [00:08:30] think possibly when I was younger, there was a bit of a oh, you know, we’d prefer if [00:08:35] you married someone Asian, but, you know, by the time I got into my late 20s, early 30s, there [00:08:40] was none of that. You know.

Payman Langroudi: The truth. I’m surprised how few Asians marry out, you [00:08:45] know, in this day and age. Yeah, yeah, I would have thought by now there’d be a lot more. There [00:08:50] are. I know. Yeah, I know loads who have.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But yeah, compared to the the percentage wise [00:08:55] it’s still a tiny number.

Dipali Dalia: I guess I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: And whether or not it’s a good. I’m not saying it’s good [00:09:00] or bad. I mean I would just just expected more.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. I wonder if it’s exposure though. Like it’s I [00:09:05] don’t know if you go to Newcastle University to do agriculture. Yeah. [00:09:10] You know, then your cohort is going to be more mixed. And I think, you know, at Dental school when I look at my [00:09:15] friends.

Payman Langroudi: What did you study.

Dipali Dalia: At King’s and.

Payman Langroudi: Near to just sort of go out to halls at least. [00:09:20]

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah. So and Hauser Lightfoot Halls on the King’s Road and, [00:09:25] and then, uh, I lived in intercollegiate halls. That was really good fun. Then we were in a house in [00:09:30] East Dulwich, but. Yeah, but your cohort is predominantly Asian, right? So I wonder [00:09:35] if there is a degree of that, that what is your exposure? Um, I [00:09:40] think it is becoming more, more mixed. Um, and, but I certainly [00:09:45] think that there’s just not that, um stigma anymore at [00:09:50] all really. Yeah. I, I don’t know, I might be wrong maybe, you know, in [00:09:55] some places of, in the country, in some communities it might be, but I think it’s a lot [00:10:00] more relaxed than it used to be.

Payman Langroudi: I had someone here recently and she was saying she had a daughter, [00:10:05] not a son. And, uh, parents were unhappy.

Dipali Dalia: Oh, right. [00:10:10] Oh, really?

Dipali Dalia: Oh, well, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I was, I really.

Dipali Dalia: I still think we were that past. [00:10:15] Past.

Dipali Dalia: But this is it, isn’t it? Within every community, you’re going to have most people in the, [00:10:20] in the, in the middle part. And then, you know, you’re going to find the extremes, aren’t you? So so I [00:10:25] guess my parents were on the on the liberal side. And, and even though my husband is Irish, actually. [00:10:30]

Payman Langroudi: What kind of Irish is he like Republic or.

Dipali Dalia: Yes.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, yeah, he’s from Cork. Yeah. Um, [00:10:35] but his parents are very similar to my parents and they got on like a house on fire. [00:10:40] The two sets of in-laws are really close. Very, very good friends. Um, [00:10:45] and it was, I think for them, it was more about, you know, is the [00:10:50] family nice? You know, is the, is, is the boy going to look after me? Kind of be good to me, [00:10:55] you know, more than anything else. Um, because yeah, just because you marry someone [00:11:00] who is the same, has the same background as you is, is no guarantee.

Payman Langroudi: For plenty.

Dipali Dalia: Of horror stories. [00:11:05] Exactly, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: So so yeah, what about on his side? Was there [00:11:10] any friction on his side at all? Nothing at all.

Dipali Dalia: Love that. No. No they they yeah. They were so.

Payman Langroudi: Involved. [00:11:15] Is he involved in law or dentistry or.

Dipali Dalia: No, no. He um he works for BMW. So [00:11:20] yeah he is um he kind of works on the business side. So he’s in head [00:11:25] office. Um but no, not not uh, not um anything. [00:11:30]

Payman Langroudi: So you qualified. So how were you as a student? Were you, were you, um, which student were you? [00:11:35]

Dipali Dalia: I think I was a work hard, play hard student. Yeah, yeah, I think [00:11:40] um, yeah, I mean, I can certainly remember a, you know, a good few [00:11:45] memorable nights out and so on. But I think when it came to exams, I did buckle down [00:11:50] and I, you know, I was, I was blessed with a good brain as well. Like I, I, you [00:11:55] know, I was lucky in that respect that things seemed to kind of stick in my head.

Payman Langroudi: A lot of times. [00:12:00] You know, people blessed with a good brain don’t work very hard, you know, because, you know, they, they, they pick stuff up [00:12:05] quickly.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, yeah. I think I was too scared though. I was, yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: Was fear of.

Dipali Dalia: Dad. I [00:12:10] was all my, all my uni friends, if they hear this they’ll just be rolling their eyes right now because [00:12:15] I was that I’m going to fail. I’m gonna fail girl. And then I did all right. And so I’d be like, oh, for [00:12:20] God’s sake, just shut up.

Payman Langroudi: So how how long before you decided [00:12:25] you want to specialise? Was it something you decided early on?

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, I think so. [00:12:30] Because like I say, I, I did, um, I Really [00:12:35] did not enjoy general dentistry. So when I did maxfacts to see, you know, what else is going on. [00:12:40] Yeah. And I loved that. It scared the living daylights [00:12:45] out of me, I was terrified.

Payman Langroudi: Where was.

Dipali Dalia: It? Um, Wolverhampton. So Dudley and Wolverhampton. [00:12:50] Yeah. Yeah. Um. But yeah, like being on Call of [00:12:55] Duty. I used to lie awake just looking at my bleep praying it wouldn’t go [00:13:00] off.

Payman Langroudi: You know I’ve done a job like that.

Dipali Dalia: It was. But it was a baptism of fire and it gave me [00:13:05] such confidence.

Payman Langroudi: Cancer cases.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. Yeah. But I mean yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Just.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah [00:13:10] yeah. All of that. And that was just brilliant to watch these. Oh my. I worked for a man [00:13:15] called Nick Weir and he had the hands of an artist. I mean, he is, he was [00:13:20] just brilliant. He was so very frightening consultant to work for. You know, you had [00:13:25] to really be on, on your game back then.

Payman Langroudi: It was almost part of being a surgeon.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. [00:13:30]

Payman Langroudi: To scream at people.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because I remember I had a guy, he You scream the hell.

Dipali Dalia: Out of me. Yeah, yeah, [00:13:35] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I just thought it was me. And then we said. We said, oh, before. Before the war drowned us all. Have [00:13:40] breakfast. Yeah. And he screamed at the, the lady serving him the bacon as well. Oh [00:13:45] my God. Yeah. And I was like okay. And I just thought he must be under pressure. He was under pressure.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: He [00:13:50] was under pressure. But back then it was like part of the job.

Dipali Dalia: It was. Yeah, exactly. Like I remember once we were.

Payman Langroudi: Doing I [00:13:55] can’t imagine anyone would get away with that stuff.

Dipali Dalia: Oh God. I mean, I, I was he was doing a parotidectomy [00:14:00] once I remember this really clearly and I was, you know, you’re there with your retractors you’re like, what’s going on? And [00:14:05] I just leant over and he not quite headbutted me, but he used his head to push my head out [00:14:10] of the way. And he was.

Payman Langroudi: Like.

Dipali Dalia: Get out of my fucking light. He was like, okay, fine, I’ll just stand [00:14:15] here like this. And, um. But God, he threatened to hang one of the hose [00:14:20] out the window by his ankles and things like this, or by his underpants or something. And it [00:14:25] definitely wouldn’t fly now, but, you know, we just took it and it was character building, you know, you [00:14:30] knew he gave you a line and you. You couldn’t cross it and you had to do [00:14:35] your job, and quite rightly so. This is a really, really important, [00:14:40] you know, surgeries that you’re assisting in or very vulnerable patients you’re looking after. You have to [00:14:45] be on it. But at the same time, he was, you know, he was very kind and, and gave praise where praise was due. [00:14:50] So, um, how.

Payman Langroudi: Long did you.

Dipali Dalia: Do that? I did that for a year.

Payman Langroudi: So then a year had gone by. [00:14:55] You were kind of deciding, do I go into oral surgery?

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. So I knew [00:15:00] I’d have to. Well, I thought I’d have to go back into general practice. So but [00:15:05] I, um, I wanted to carry on with the oral surgery. So I called Pat Reynolds, who [00:15:10] is one of our tutors in oral surgery at King’s, and said, look, um, I don’t mind doing it. Even [00:15:15] an honorary job, even if it’s like one day a week. I don’t mind if you don’t pay me, [00:15:20] but I want to keep my hand in the oral surgery side of things. And she said, well, actually, look, we’ve got some jobs, staff grades. [00:15:25] So that was not just doing the clinical work, but and it was oral surgery, not maxillofacial staff [00:15:30] grade. So it was all, uh, moss stuff for teaching as well. So I had [00:15:35] my first taste of teaching, um, quite early on, really in 2002 to 4. [00:15:40] And then during that time I was considering doing, uh, [00:15:45] surgical dentistry as a speciality. Um, because I really just, I just didn’t want to [00:15:50] do general practice. I think that was my main kind of reason.

Payman Langroudi: I hate it so much.

Dipali Dalia: I [00:15:55] don’t know, I think I just wasn’t I think drew said, because I listened to Drew’s episode [00:16:00] and he said something which kind of resonated with me. And he said that he felt he didn’t have that [00:16:05] technical somehow, that technical thing with his hand, you know, for, for doing [00:16:10] all aspects of. But he enjoyed the surgery. And I think I’m very much like that. I was much [00:16:15] better with a scalpel than I was with a handpiece. And I somehow don’t know if I didn’t have that 3D perspective [00:16:20] on, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Um, because lots of people are the opposite. Aren’t [00:16:25] they.

Dipali Dalia: Scared?

Payman Langroudi: Scared of a scalpel? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Last thing I want [00:16:30] to do is cut a flap. Yeah.

Dipali Dalia: Actually, one of the other reasons I did, Max [00:16:35] fax is because I was terrified of taking teeth out. You know, I wasn’t very good at it.

Payman Langroudi: Leant in.

Dipali Dalia: So [00:16:40] I thought, I’m not going to wake up every morning being absolutely terrified that I’ve [00:16:45] got an extraction on my list. I cannot go through the next 40 years of dentistry feeling that way. I’ve got [00:16:50] to sort this out. And that’s also why I didn’t apply to him, but on a bigger teaching hospital, [00:16:55] because I thought, I’m going to get drowned in all the shows. I’m never going to get a chance to do anything. Um, [00:17:00] and so yeah, being one of four, uh, was quite good because we had [00:17:05] lots and lots of hands on experience. So, um, but yeah, I know it was scary, [00:17:10] you know? Um, but yeah, so then, then I, um, was.

Payman Langroudi: Back [00:17:15] to.

Dipali Dalia: Practice. Yeah. So, so I was back to practice. No, sorry. I went to oral surgery, did [00:17:20] the oral surgery. And then, um, we did work in practice at the same time as well. [00:17:25] So doing was doing this the two side by side. Um, and then, uh, my friend Sammy, [00:17:30] Sammy Darwish said, oh, he was applying for perio and he thought it would be a, you [00:17:35] know, something for me to think. And I thought, actually, yeah, you know, at that time there was [00:17:40] a really big sort of demand for it. And in general, in practice rather, um, [00:17:45] it was something that we were all aware that dentists had not really [00:17:50] taken too seriously and there was going to be a big litigious boom, you know, with all of this. And, [00:17:55] and it was, it is a surgical speciality. Um, so, so that’s really where my [00:18:00] perio journey started.

Payman Langroudi: Where did you study period?

Dipali Dalia: Guys.

Payman Langroudi: Full [00:18:05] time.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. Uh, no part time. So four years, four years. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And practising at the [00:18:10] same time.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. Practice.

Payman Langroudi: At one point I was like.

Dipali Dalia: Two years, two days in practice, three days [00:18:15] at college and either a night or a weekend doing [00:18:20] EDS, emergency dental. It was, it was a full on, really full on. But I loved [00:18:25] it. It was brilliant. Um, it was, it was tough. [00:18:30] It was a hard the bar course was really, really hard. Um, and [00:18:35] did nearly kill me at the end. But my um clin dent, it took me years to recover [00:18:40] from it. It was.

Payman Langroudi: Tough. Yeah.

Dipali Dalia: I’ve heard that it was really tough. Um, and [00:18:45] especially at the end when you’re presenting your cases, you’re getting your case presentations together, you’re selecting [00:18:50] your cases, you know, how am I going to showcase my talents? And, and you think certain patients [00:18:55] are going to work out and you’re working to the wire because you have to review them a certain amount of [00:19:00] weeks before your exam. And oh God, the whole thing was, and I had some great [00:19:05] friends in my year though, and we all got each other through it.

Payman Langroudi: So someone’s going to hear this, and they might be at that point in their [00:19:10] career where they’ve just qualified. Yeah. And they’re considering which way to go. Mhm. [00:19:15] And you know, if we, let’s say you want to, I mean, it’s definitely [00:19:20] makes sense to learn more, right? Let’s say you want to learn more and you’re considering [00:19:25] specialise or not, and you’re considering [00:19:30] which speciality. And I hear this from dentists all the time. Really. Like, you [00:19:35] know, it’s obvious why you don’t know, do you? You’re not sure, but you get young dentists says, I don’t [00:19:40] know. I don’t know which speciality to go into. And I don’t even know if I should specialise because I could become a [00:19:45] DWC or whatever it is. I could do courses. Yeah. What are your thoughts around [00:19:50] that? I mean, is it a particular type of person who subjects themselves to the qualification? Did [00:19:55] you consider not getting the qualification and doing courses or were you just like.

Dipali Dalia: No, [00:20:00] I think I was quite hard to get qualification and I think I wanted it wasn’t so much qualification. [00:20:05] I just wanted to be very proficient in one thing and commit to that. Um, [00:20:10] and so, you know, but I do think that there is, and [00:20:15] I, and I forgive me if maybe I’ve got this wrong, but I seem to. I feel [00:20:20] that there is a tendency for dentists now when they’re young, wanting [00:20:25] to specialise before they really even experienced [00:20:30] life and practice. Um, because there is this ambition, right to, [00:20:35] to do and, and it is apparently the thing to do, I suppose after it’s not just, [00:20:40] you know, it’s kind of the next step on general dentistry or what, and I don’t know why [00:20:45] they’re thinking about specialising even before they know whether they do or don’t like general [00:20:50] dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: I get it very common in the US. Yeah, very, very common.

Dipali Dalia: But [00:20:55] I, I, I know generalists who are absolutely incredible clinicians [00:21:00] who haven’t specialised.

Payman Langroudi: My, my point is this that if let’s say like you, you, you were going to [00:21:05] specialise, you decided you were going to specialise.

Dipali Dalia: But that was my exit from general dentistry. [00:21:10]

Payman Langroudi: No, no, but it would have been absolutely fine if in your third year. Yeah. You you [00:21:15] decided you wanted to be a periodontist And within that time. I’m not [00:21:20] saying you were qualified to decide. Yeah, yeah. But if you had decided. Yeah. Um, within [00:21:25] that time you, you know, with guys or you were in kings, you’ve got some of [00:21:30] the world’s leaders in, in perio. Yeah. You could have talked to, to, to, to that person. [00:21:35] He could have recommended you go and see his friend in San Francisco. You could have very early [00:21:40] on gone down that path and gone straight from qualifying to, to residency [00:21:45] program or something in the US for the sake of the argument. Yeah, yeah. And there isn’t something [00:21:50] that says you would have been a periodontist because the the course would have [00:21:55] taken care of that. Yeah. Now are you qualified aged 20 one third [00:22:00] year of dental school to say I want to be a periodontist? Yeah. I don’t know. At the same time, [00:22:05] don’t you think you love anything you’re good at?

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, but I didn’t know I was good at it. Yeah. [00:22:10] I suppose I see what you’re saying, but, like, say, for example, as an undergraduate, I loved paediatric dentistry. [00:22:15] Yeah. I would hate to treat a child now. You know the reality [00:22:20] of it.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve evolved to a different person. But let’s let’s say you you said endo. Yeah. And you got really [00:22:25] good at endo. You’d love endo.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. I suppose it depends [00:22:30] on what your motivation is to do it. Right. So if you know you’re really good at something and [00:22:35] you have a passion for.

Payman Langroudi: It, you would get good at it by becoming a specialist, right?

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. But [00:22:40] it’s a, it’s a lot to.

Payman Langroudi: Look.

Dipali Dalia: At. It’s a big commitment to, to undertake.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:22:45] get.

Dipali Dalia: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: That. Your side of the argument is very obvious. You [00:22:50] know, who are you at that age? But what I’m saying is if you don’t know. Yeah. [00:22:55] There’s one thing that says go, go start doing general. And then where do they go? They go to an NHS [00:23:00] practice. They start de-skilling.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. But I mean, but you can also you can [00:23:05] if you really do have um a, an interest in a particular speciality, [00:23:10] there are and this is where, you know, I was talking about the collegiate aspect of our of our profession. [00:23:15] Yeah. That, you know, if there are people who are out there who are willing [00:23:20] to mentor you, you know, okay, as a new graduate, you don’t want to be taking two [00:23:25] days off a week to go and to go and shadow someone, you know, you’ve got student loans to pay, you’ve got, [00:23:30] you’ve got to be effective in sort of your in generating an income as well. But once [00:23:35] a month, you can go and, you know, reach out to a specialist. Can I come and shadow? I’ve had lots of [00:23:40] people come and shadow me. I’m more than happy to sit and talk to, to, to.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a very [00:23:45] good point. A lot of people don’t ever think about even reaching out.

Dipali Dalia: You don’t have it’s not all or nothing. You know, there are. [00:23:50] You can go on courses. You can. You know, if I do a hands on periodontal course, [00:23:55] are my hands going to do what I want them to do? Is this going to suit me? I thought when I did my perio [00:24:00] specialist training that I’d be putting in implants left, right and centre. I’m not very good at it. I [00:24:05] just don’t see it in three dimensions. It’s not something I choose to do. It’s not something I enjoy [00:24:10] having even sort of done the specialist training in it. Um, so [00:24:15] I think you can figure out really whether it’s something that there is going to be [00:24:20] worth you investing time, effort, energy, you know, it’s [00:24:25] loss of income, it’s not just fees in that time.

Payman Langroudi: Do you talk money? How much does it cost?

Dipali Dalia: Then [00:24:30] it was I think the whole course cost about 25 grand.

Payman Langroudi: 25 grand [00:24:35] a year.

Dipali Dalia: Oh, I dread to think. I dread to think. It must be. It must be nothing.

Payman Langroudi: Less [00:24:40] than that.

Dipali Dalia: No. Well, I mean, if you think how much undergraduate training is that? It’s [00:24:45] you know.

Payman Langroudi: But you’re right about the lost income as well.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Two days a week. Three days a.

Dipali Dalia: Week. Yeah. Yeah. [00:24:50] It’s significant.

Payman Langroudi: So you become a periodontist. Mhm. What’s your next move?

Dipali Dalia: So then I worked, [00:24:55] um, as a sort of visiting specialist in a number of. So I worked [00:25:00] in a, my main job was in a special with a specialist practice which I’m still in now, [00:25:05] so near Portsmouth, near Portsmouth and Havant. It’s called Emsworth Specialist Practice. And [00:25:10] basically one of my period tutors had a she was starting her practice or she had started. [00:25:15] It was quite a small thing. She was getting very busy. She invited myself and my friend to go and join her [00:25:20] to help. Um, and I thought I’d do it for a few years. But nearly two decades on, I’m [00:25:25] still there.

Payman Langroudi: Most of the work there is by referral.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, all of it. Yeah, we’re a referral practice. [00:25:30] Back then we only did perio and she was on oral surgery list [00:25:35] as well. Um, so she did a little bit of surgery, but it was predominantly perio. [00:25:40] Now we have a prosthodontist and an implant surgeon that comes in, but it is still fundamentally, [00:25:45] uh, you know, a periodontal practice.

Payman Langroudi: So the trend now is much more for people to bring [00:25:50] specialists into their own practices.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I guess this one’s been around long enough to sort of. [00:25:55]

Dipali Dalia: I think so I think it’s been around long enough. I think we do have our, you know, we’ve had [00:26:00] people who’ve been referring to us for a long time, a number of whom have retired now. And so the landscape [00:26:05] is changing and there are a few more specialists sort of in the area [00:26:10] as well.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I mean, I think it’s really interesting that in little pockets, um, [00:26:15] uh, specialists can go and dominate. I knew a [00:26:20] guy, uh, I know a guy, uh, Pete Strand.

Dipali Dalia: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, you taught me. Oh, yeah. [00:26:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Dipali Dalia: Great guy. Yeah. He’s lovely. He’s fabulous.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, but in Ashford, yeah, him and, uh, had [00:26:30] a had a practice.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, there was, there wasn’t a periodontist for [00:26:35] miles around.

Dipali Dalia: No. Well, that’s the same as us in Portsmouth. Yeah. Yeah. But there was no one. We had someone [00:26:40] in 1 or 2 people in Southampton. There was one [00:26:45] person in Winchester.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Dipali Dalia: And then there was no [00:26:50] one until Brighton. So we had a really, you know, big catchment area. [00:26:55]

Payman Langroudi: Um but you know, earlier we were talking about the West End and, and the difference between [00:27:00] getting, getting, going somewhere like that. Yeah. And making a sort of centre [00:27:05] of excellence locally. Yeah. Compared to being in the West End, where.

Dipali Dalia: There’s.

Payman Langroudi: 100 periodontists. [00:27:10]

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s an interesting idea. Not everyone thinks about it.

Dipali Dalia: No. And I’m really grateful [00:27:15] to have been able to jump onto, you know, Amanda’s bandwagon. Amanda Biddle was my tutor. Um, [00:27:20] you know, when we. And she’s just the way that she ran, [00:27:25] her practice was very efficient. The workflow was amazing. Um, and, [00:27:30] you know, and I’ve, I’ve kind of duplicated that workflow into other places. So I did [00:27:35] work in, in, I mean, when I first graduated or qualified as a specialist, I was probably in about [00:27:40] seven different practices and then slowly, slowly whittled that down for for one reason [00:27:45] or another. Um, but yeah, you know, the workflow was good and, and [00:27:50] it was good to be kind of working with someone who had trained me. [00:27:55] So they knew or rather I knew or we knew [00:28:00] how each other worked because it was the same sort of approach [00:28:05] to, to looking after the patients. So it was a very good foundation, [00:28:10] which.

Payman Langroudi: As a dentist who relies on referrals, your [00:28:15] customer air quotes is kind of the dentist. [00:28:20] Yeah. As opposed to the patient. And of course, the patients. Absolutely.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But tell [00:28:25] me about that. I mean, because I was really surprised that now I’ve been talking to a lot of specialists, how [00:28:30] few referrals each specialist has insomuch as it’s [00:28:35] not about the numbers, but the number of referrals. Right. But the reliance on a [00:28:40] few dentists and how precarious that is.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, someone retires, [00:28:45] someone moves and completely changes your referral situation.

Dipali Dalia: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:28:50] do you know what is it? What what value add do you have as a as a periodontist. Like if I [00:28:55] refer to you, what do you do to keep me referring to you? [00:29:00]

Dipali Dalia: Well, I think firstly, we’re very good with our communication. So, you know, the letters that go out, [00:29:05] they’re very comprehensive. Um the and you know, and we [00:29:10] will sort of share even if we don’t treat the patient, [00:29:15] if the patient’s got very minor disease, we’re very happy to provide a treatment plan. You know, so I [00:29:20] think that, um, that in itself, just this kind of openness [00:29:25] and willing to kind of communicate with the dentist. And I always say to my patients, me and your dentist [00:29:30] will work together to provide a team approach for your care. And I think that is fundamental. [00:29:35] Um, so not only will I, will, I write to [00:29:40] them, but in certain situations, I’ll phone dentists, I’ll, you know, if, if they feel [00:29:45] that something is an appropriate thing, but I might have a different take on it. I’d rather I’d say to [00:29:50] the patient, we will have a discussion. We will decide between us what we think is the best way to move forwards, [00:29:55] etc.. Um, I think making sure that we’re very clear [00:30:00] on not providing any further treatment.

Payman Langroudi: Depending on their toes.

Dipali Dalia: No, [00:30:05] treading on that is absolutely paramount.

Payman Langroudi: I remember I used to refer to Pete and [00:30:10] I as a young associate. My question was, can these teeth take a crown or not? [00:30:15] Yeah. What’s the like the the common situation I had and what he would do is he would [00:30:20] he would treat the perio and the patient would come back saying, yeah, the expert said, I should definitely have those [00:30:25] two crowns. Yeah. And it was so interesting. It was such a great thing because he’s the expert.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, [00:30:30] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so the patient comes back not only perio sorted but also now [00:30:35] restoratively reinforced.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. Well I think and that is that is.

Payman Langroudi: That goes a long way.

Dipali Dalia: It does go a [00:30:40] long way. It does go a long way. And I think that, you know, if and [00:30:45] again, it’s that situation of if I really felt that a tooth is not restorable or shouldn’t [00:30:50] be, I wouldn’t say that categorically to the patient.

Payman Langroudi: The whole reason the patient sent to you.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, but I wouldn’t [00:30:55] necessarily. But if the dentist is if I’m feeling that the dentist wants to crown it, I’m not gonna throw [00:31:00] the dentist under the bus by going, oh, no, I don’t know why they’re thinking that. I’m gonna say.

Payman Langroudi: You figured out that [00:31:05] delicate, delicate dance.

Dipali Dalia: It is a delicate it is a it is a you know, it’s a masterclass in diplomacy, [00:31:10] you know, and, uh, and at the end of the day.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, classically, classically, [00:31:15] he’s lost a tooth. Mhm. Now, there are two abutments.

Dipali Dalia: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Should you bridge [00:31:20] these very involved teeth or should it be an implant or what should you do? That’s where you get [00:31:25] stuck as a generalist.

Dipali Dalia: Exactly. Yeah. But it’s and I think what’s important [00:31:30] the or the power in the decision that you make or explaining [00:31:35] or persuading the dentist or the patient that your, um, [00:31:40] recommendation is the right one is by breaking it down saying, well, because of this, [00:31:45] this, this, and this, it’s a good idea or because of X, Y, Z, it really isn’t a good idea. And [00:31:50] then when everyone, rather than saying yes or no, it’s the explanation that goes with it [00:31:55] so they can understand what you’re thinking is. I think there’s a lot of power in that as well. [00:32:00]

Payman Langroudi: So what is the decision making criteria in a situation like that? Well the amount of bone. Yeah. [00:32:05]

Dipali Dalia: The amount of bone.

Payman Langroudi: The occlusion.

Dipali Dalia: The occlusion, the restorability of the teeth, [00:32:10] you know, are they endodontically involved? Are they deep fillings in there? I mean, it’s yeah, it’s [00:32:15] nothing.

Payman Langroudi: There’s no.

Dipali Dalia: Magic. There’s no.

Payman Langroudi: Formula.

Dipali Dalia: No. Absolutely not. There’s no [00:32:20] kind of. Yeah. Um, it’s, it’s basic dentistry, you know, and that’s [00:32:25] the thing is that, you know, we have this moniker specialist, but that doesn’t mean that we don’t [00:32:30] lean, rely heavily on all our generalist training and, and that I think [00:32:35] that empowers you as a specialist to remember. Well, actually, I can you [00:32:40] know, I often see on these forums, dentists have sent patients to the hospital and [00:32:45] the hospitals come back and said, well, I want you to do X, Y, z, a, b, c and the dentist is like a I’m [00:32:50] an NHS practitioner. B this patient’s, you know, mouth opening [00:32:55] is so limited. I am not a you know, I’m not trained to a a [00:33:00] secondary care level in providing endo. How are they expecting me to restore this [00:33:05] upper right. Seven. You know, um, and I think it’s being sort [00:33:10] of thoughtful of, of what that I can give my ivory tower answer. [00:33:15] It’s impractical. That’s not helping anybody, you know, least of all the patient. [00:33:20] Um, and so I think, you know, remembering how or thinking [00:33:25] if I was a generalist, would I want to do this is, is, is really important. [00:33:30] And I think it, I think that also helps the specialist to be the kind of [00:33:35] person that a generalist wants to refer to that they’re not having these lofty ideas [00:33:40] that, you know.

Payman Langroudi: That aren’t. It makes a lot of sense. It’s the real world, right?

Dipali Dalia: It’s the real world. Exactly. [00:33:45]

Payman Langroudi: And how much of your work is perio disease and how much of your work is things like, uh, aesthetic, [00:33:50] like, you know, when you’ve got recession and.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean plastic surgery, that sort.

Dipali Dalia: Of thing where [00:33:55] we are mostly is disease. Yeah. Um, and, [00:34:00] you know, we do have some recession cases that come in. I, I’m quite conservative in my approach [00:34:05] to these things in that, you know, if someone’s got 3 or 4mm of [00:34:10] lower incisor recession they’ve had for ten years after ortho, and it’s not got [00:34:15] any worse. I’m not going to be rushing to graft that. You know, I don’t think [00:34:20] that that’s just because I enjoy doing it or just because, you know, it might look [00:34:25] pretty, but no one’s going to see it. The patient has to spend over a grand or whatever having [00:34:30] it done and it might fail. You know, that’s not something that I that [00:34:35] I’m going to be doing loads of. But we don’t the predominantly what is [00:34:40] referred to us is, is disease management. So yeah, I would say that that is the bulk of our [00:34:45] work and. Peri peri Implantitis management. Peri implantitis.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about that [00:34:50] bit.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, there’s a lot.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a lot of it.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And the treatment of [00:34:55] it. Is it predictable?

Dipali Dalia: No.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Dipali Dalia: And again, you know, I’ll [00:35:00] say there’s so much that will inform the predictability of that [00:35:05] kind of treatment. So if it’s a patient who is not periodontally susceptible [00:35:10] and has had an implant placed, and there was a little bit of [00:35:15] cement that was retained and has caused this bone loss, you [00:35:20] kind of know if you clean it all up, it probably will resolve. [00:35:25] It probably will improve if they’ve got a rip roaring periodontal [00:35:30] disease, they’re very periodontally susceptible. And they’ve had, you know, [00:35:35] peri implantitis around other implants that have not responded, then, [00:35:40] you know, you’re kind of on a hiding to nothing. It is about it is about the patient, not just about what [00:35:45] you do. It’s about how they respond to what you do. Um, and so, you know, [00:35:50] the first thing I’ll say to all patients is it’s not very predictable, but [00:35:55] if we can stop it in its tracks. So if the bone [00:36:00] loss is to a certain point where, you know, if there’s two thirds of the bone lost over [00:36:05] a short period of time, you’re on a hiding to nothing. It’s a waste of everyone’s time. [00:36:10] You know, if it’s been going on for a long time and it’s maybe a third [00:36:15] of the bone has been lost, you might take a bit more of a equivocal [00:36:20] approach and just say, well, let’s treat it, but [00:36:25] I’m warning you, this might not be the end.

Dipali Dalia: So I tend to do non-surgical treatment with [00:36:30] some adjunctive antibiotics. See how that responds. And quite often [00:36:35] that will help to resolve the inflammation. Um, and you get [00:36:40] sort of, uh, pocket depth reduction to the point where patients can clean well around the implant, [00:36:45] etc. and then they can stay stable for many, many years. [00:36:50] If you try it non-surgically and then if the pockets start coming back or [00:36:55] you haven’t got very good resolution, then you might take a step to do some surgical intervention. [00:37:00] Um, and then, you know, I won’t talk more about that because [00:37:05] everyone’s going to have different opinions on whether you bone graft or whether you put membranes, whether you [00:37:10] resect, you know, we all have very different ideas. And I know what I do, but I don’t know if [00:37:15] everyone else would agree with me. I tend to take more of a receptive approach unless unless it’s in the [00:37:20] aesthetic zone, and then it just becomes tricky anyway. So, you know, but [00:37:25] it but the, the heart of anything you do or the first thing you have to warn everyone is this [00:37:30] might not work. This is a last ditch attempt. And it’s better that we try [00:37:35] this than you go through having to have this implant refined out of your jaw, [00:37:40] you know, which is not uncomplicated surgeries. So yeah. [00:37:45] And again.

Payman Langroudi: How soon are you seeing? I know it’s different in every case, but what’s [00:37:50] the shortest period of time where you see actually, this this this implant is failing.

Dipali Dalia: Um, it [00:37:55] is really difficult actually, because some, some of them within.

Payman Langroudi: As early as [00:38:00] 18 months after it’s placed.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. But then that means it’s probably not integrated properly in the first place. [00:38:05] Okay. There might be an element of that anyway. Um, but probably [00:38:10] yeah, a couple of years, 2 or 3 years. It could be. Yeah. Very, very minor [00:38:15] beginning. Some of it of course is just the um the alveolar [00:38:20] ridge just resorbing and settling, you know, and then there’s this. And then sometimes [00:38:25] it looks like there’s a sort of, there are bony defects, but it depends on the shape of the abutment as well. Okay. [00:38:30] And where the um fixture head level has been placed, there are so many different, [00:38:35] you know, factors. I’m, I think at what I’m seeing is [00:38:40] patients I’ve been seeing for a long time that have had implants, have had no problems. Once [00:38:45] they start coming to the 10 to 12 year mark out of nowhere. [00:38:50] They’re then beginning to develop issues.

Payman Langroudi: Ageing, right?

Dipali Dalia: So I don’t think [00:38:55] ageing is necessarily got. Oh really? Yeah. Yeah. I’m not convinced [00:39:00] that because periodontitis is not something that is age dependent. It is. [00:39:05] It’s about. No, no. So I’ve had 80 year old patients who have come. [00:39:10] They’ve got very little bone loss. Um and might, might actually end [00:39:15] up being referred to us because they’ve actually got a perio endo lesion um or something like that. [00:39:20] Um or they’ve got one tooth where there’s a bit of a furcation involvement, but generally [00:39:25] they’re quite periodontally resistant. So it depends on their genetic susceptibility really [00:39:30] as opposed to um it’s not part of the ageing [00:39:35] process. I mean obviously if you’ve got calculus that’s been in someone’s head for 45 [00:39:40] years is going to have less of a or more of a problem than if it’s only been in their head [00:39:45] for ten years. Right. Because it’s time dependent.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, obviously you’re the expert. I would have thought, you know, [00:39:50] there’s enough undiagnosed prediabetes out there that and that [00:39:55] tends to be a thing that comes with age. And so maybe there’s a, there’s a.

Dipali Dalia: I mean, I think, [00:40:00] I think the diabetes thing, if you’re, if you have some inherent susceptibility, it can tip you over.

Payman Langroudi: You’re [00:40:05] right. Right, right, right.

Dipali Dalia: But I think it’s about the inherent susceptibility first, like there are diabetics out there who [00:40:10] won’t have any gum disease. It’s it’s not, it’s not like.

Payman Langroudi: I thought it was like.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. No. Not necessarily. [00:40:15]

Payman Langroudi: And are you enjoying all this movement towards the sort of mouth body [00:40:20] sort of connection?

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Actually I must be for a periodontist.

Dipali Dalia: It’s really, it’s really fascinating [00:40:25] actually, because I think there was a point where when I was doing my max fax job, you talk about the, [00:40:30] um, focal infection theory and how it was debunked and, and all of [00:40:35] this. Now really essentially that’s kind of coming back into play. Um, well, there was [00:40:40] a BSP that we went to a couple of years ago where we had a couple of doctors come and talk to us about, [00:40:45] you know, kind of this very compelling evidence of inflammatory markers being increased and, [00:40:50] you know, periodontal pathogens being found in, um, in the brain or [00:40:55] in or in, uh.

Payman Langroudi: The heart valves.

Dipali Dalia: Exactly [00:41:00] in arteries or rather in the coronary arteries and crossing the placenta and [00:41:05] things. And that was very, I was quite kind of not 100% sure whether it was a bit of a, oh, he’s just [00:41:10] scaremongering our patients. But I do really believe that an increase in inflammation in your in [00:41:15] your mouth will cause, you know.

Payman Langroudi: I went to a lecture by, uh, Professor Chappell. Oh [00:41:20] yeah. At the Bupa thing.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And it was eye opening. Yeah, it really was. [00:41:25] I’m quite interested in this notion. Yeah. That, you know, when you’re in, especially in perio, there’s [00:41:30] a lot of crap that comes and goes like the companies try. And to. [00:41:35] I remember in my day there was this thing. Perio chip. Yeah.

Dipali Dalia: He’s not [00:41:40] a fan.

Payman Langroudi: Topical. Topical antibiotic. Yeah. I remember as an associate, [00:41:45] I remember I had the rep come over and say, yeah, this is brilliant. This [00:41:50] is the next thing. And by the way, you can charge an extra £60 for it or something. And there I was doing my deep [00:41:55] scaling and I was like, oh, putting that in charging. And I was happy with my life. And then Pete told [00:42:00] me, look, it’s crap. It’s not, nothing’s gonna happen here. But but my point to him was [00:42:05] that you have to you’re a specialist, right? You have to not be [00:42:10] the first person that jumps on something, but also not be the last person. And [00:42:15] how, how do you keep an open mind to whether you know the latest things [00:42:20] when you’ve seen so much rubbish come along and you [00:42:25] kind of it kind of it kind of you, you become jaded.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. I suppose understanding [00:42:30] the biology is fundamental to that really.

Payman Langroudi: Something actually makes actual sense. [00:42:35] Yeah. But this, this could make actual sense, right? Period. Yeah. But if you.

Dipali Dalia: If you stick [00:42:40] a foreign body into a pocket, how is it ever going to heal?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dipali Dalia: Do you see what I mean? It’s like it might leech out a [00:42:45] bit. And you got gingival crevicular fluid coming out all the time. It’s washing all of that stuff [00:42:50] out. That’s the whole purpose of it. So when you get down to those kind of fundamental, [00:42:55] you know, biological, it just kind of.

Payman Langroudi: Since you qualified as a periodontist, [00:43:00] what, what’s one thing that’s changed that [00:43:05] you didn’t expect?

Dipali Dalia: That I didn’t expect?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Dipali Dalia: Because in terms of [00:43:10] how do you mean?

Payman Langroudi: Well, well, I don’t know.

Dipali Dalia: Guided by therapy.

Payman Langroudi: For [00:43:15] instance.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. I mean, you know, again, you know, that’s that has [00:43:20] kind of mixed reviews, mixed approach. People love it. People don’t love it. It’s, you [00:43:25] know, the thing actually, for me that I thought would have been a game changer was all this guided bone [00:43:30] regeneration and, you know, using membranes and so on the cortex. Yeah. And all [00:43:35] of that. And, you know, biofilm by, by a guide and, um, bio-oss and, [00:43:40] you know, unfortunately or [00:43:45] certainly in my hands, I wouldn’t be using those things to try and, and grow [00:43:50] bone around people’s teeth. It has its place in implant dentistry, I believe things like [00:43:55] emdogain, you know, they’re far more I, I see better results, although, [00:44:00] you know, sometimes in my non-surgical treatments, I see infrabony defects filling in. So you [00:44:05] kind of think, is it just because I’ve just got the crap out over there that it’s improved? Or is it these stem cells that are working? [00:44:10] Um.

Payman Langroudi: I think you do the non-surgical therapy yourself.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. [00:44:15]

Payman Langroudi: Are they not hygienists who do that?

Dipali Dalia: Um, there are and some people [00:44:20] do have their hygienists do it, but I want to feel myself.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly. [00:44:25]

Dipali Dalia: Exactly what’s going on. I want to know that I’ve taken the responsibility to remove those deposits [00:44:30] and nothing is left behind. I then can get a sense of what the root morphology is [00:44:35] like, you know? Can I get into the furcation? This a furcation probe when a patient isn’t numb, can only [00:44:40] tell you so much once they’re numb and you can get right in there, you can learn a lot more about sort of [00:44:45] the anatomy of the roots and, and sort of what’s going on. So I like to do that myself. And the [00:44:50] thing is, my non-surgical treatment is effective. So if I [00:44:55] can do that and get them to a place of stability rather than, you know, [00:45:00] and I have worked with hygienists who are, you know, better than me, [00:45:05] and I’m sure, but they’re few and far between. At the end of the day, they don’t have, you know, the [00:45:10] level of training that we have, um, where they’re so brilliant in behaviour [00:45:15] change and, and, and, you know, really kind of building [00:45:20] relationships with patients so they can communicate with them effectively. And, you know, they’re so good at that. But [00:45:25] that technical getting right into a fur coat because that. To be fair, I only [00:45:30] learned how to be effective non-surgically by doing surgical and by doing surgical periodontal [00:45:35] treatment so I could see exactly what a furcation was like when the flap was lifted. When you’ve cleaned it all up, [00:45:40] what is this defect like? I’m visualising what’s going on in my head.

Payman Langroudi: That’s interesting. [00:45:45]

Dipali Dalia: You know, when I’m doing it because I’ve seen it before. Um, so [00:45:50] yeah, so I think it’s, it’s kind of incumbent. I feel it’s incumbent [00:45:55] upon me to provide that initial treatment because that could be the end of it for that patient [00:46:00] rather than someone doing 95% of it really well, but then they’re still being a little bit left, then [00:46:05] that’s a cost. It’s a morbidity issue.

Payman Langroudi: If it ain’t broke, why fix it? I guess that’s a very important [00:46:10] point, right? The referrer has trusted you to fix this problem. And you’re. [00:46:15]

Dipali Dalia: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: You know what you’re doing. I mean, I, you know, Basil Mizrahi, right? People think of him as the best dentist [00:46:20] in the whole country. Yeah. And, um, we were talking about digital. Yeah. And he was [00:46:25] saying, look, at the end of the day, I know what I can do with within. [00:46:30] Yeah yeah.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. No, exactly, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but [00:46:35] now it sounds like you, you’re happy in this job. Yeah. But [00:46:40] something was telling you to become a barrister.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So I [00:46:45] go on self-analyze to figure out what it was, because, [00:46:50] you know, anyone else would say, look, it’s a brilliant job. You’re a specialist, your patients are happy, [00:46:55] you’re Referrers are happy, you’re making good money in a practice that, you know, [00:47:00] not many of us have worked in practices where we’re actually happy, you know, clinical [00:47:05] freedom or whatever it was that made you happy, all of that stuff that you liked.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. [00:47:10]

Payman Langroudi: And yet, I mean, is there something about you that is like never happy with what you [00:47:15] have? Or was there something. Yeah, I think it was itchy to move. Yeah.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. And looking for the [00:47:20] next challenge. What can I do that is going to elevate me to being the next [00:47:25] level. Next level of myself, you know? How can I be? How [00:47:30] can I get to that point where I think, yeah, I’ve really done something now that sounds ridiculous. [00:47:35] When you think, you know, you do put yourself through specialist training. Et cetera. Et cetera. But it had been [00:47:40] so I qualified in 2008 as a specialist. And, and I started [00:47:45] then having thoughts about doing something different [00:47:50] about ten years later. And, you know, I [00:47:55] just was getting to that point where my brain was, it [00:48:00] was needing something. It was needing to be. I love learning, I’m, I’m a [00:48:05] learner holic, you know, I just love learning new things, reading about things I’ve never heard [00:48:10] of before, you know, whatever. But and this law thing was something [00:48:15] I’d always unfinished business. Yeah, exactly. That’s a really good way of putting it. [00:48:20] And so I thought first, shall I do the medical law and ethics? [00:48:25] Msc?

Payman Langroudi: You could have gone into, I don’t know. Laser perio treatment, but you could have gone [00:48:30] into implants. But you’ve gone into this total change.

Dipali Dalia: I think fundamentally [00:48:35] and I, you know, look, I love my job and [00:48:40] I, and I love.

Payman Langroudi: It.

Dipali Dalia: But but it was never my great passion. It was never my great [00:48:45] work. You know, I’ve got friends. I’ve got friends who are periodontist are so passionate about clinical work. I [00:48:50] wish I had a bit of that. You know, I did perio to get away from general practice, you [00:48:55] know, and I love it. And it served me well. And it’s and it’s my favourite speciality of, of everything you [00:49:00] can do in dentistry, but it still hadn’t fulfilled me completely [00:49:05] at that point. Fair enough. And I just thought.

Payman Langroudi: And how old were you?

Dipali Dalia: 42. 41. [00:49:10] 40. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Took some guts at 42. Yeah. [00:49:15]

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. And I just thought, well, look, let me see what this is all about. So first I thought, shall [00:49:20] I do the medical law and ethics thing? And then someone [00:49:25] else who was kind of interested in the law said to me, well, I’m thinking about doing training as a barrister. [00:49:30] And then that made me think, hmm, can I do this? So I had a word with my husband and [00:49:35] I said, look. And he was kind of scratching his head thinking, you’re a dentist. Like, why? Why do you [00:49:40] want. Why do you want to pivot away from this? And I said, I don’t, I think I just need something else. [00:49:45] And so he was like, yeah, go for it, you know, find out.

Payman Langroudi: So was it opportunism in it that you could see that [00:49:50] legal was exploding?

Dipali Dalia: Well actually it’s yeah. I mean, that’s a very good point. I did also [00:49:55] see this, you know, our profession, the litigious nature [00:50:00] of dentistry. And actually, you know, rather.

Payman Langroudi: Than it working against [00:50:05] you, you thought, let me work with it.

Dipali Dalia: But also to come from this kind of unique [00:50:10] perspective. Yeah. Um, you know, there are, there are a few, um, dentists [00:50:15] who have become barristers, but there’s only about a handful, you know, in the [00:50:20] country. There are more doctors who have done it, but it is a unique perspective. And, you [00:50:25] know, when you hear of the horror stories and people, you know, really suffering with their mental health because [00:50:30] of, you know, litigation. And I thought, well, you know, maybe I can bring something to the table [00:50:35] here as well. And so that was a driving, you know, for [00:50:40] reason as well. Um, but yeah, I thought, well, let me let’s see what [00:50:45] all of this is about. So I kind of went online, I had a look at some, you know, [00:50:50] some information about how do you train to become a barrister? Okay, you need to do the law conversion first. [00:50:55] Um, and then, you know, you’ve got to do this bar course, etc., etc.. [00:51:00] So I applied for a scholarship from, uh, one of the Inns of Court and [00:51:05] I got that and I thought, well, that’s got to be a sign then, you know, it’s um, [00:51:10] something somewhere is someone, somewhere is telling me that this is, you know, a door has opened. [00:51:15] Maybe there’s something in this. So then I did the lore conversion and [00:51:20] I did that over two years. That was over lockdown, actually, I did my first year. Um, so that was quite good because [00:51:25] I had something to do.

Payman Langroudi: How your 42 year old periodontist brain handled [00:51:30] this subject. I mean, there’s loads of reading in it.

Dipali Dalia: It was hard. [00:51:35]

Payman Langroudi: It was hard. You didn’t take to it naturally. Well you did.

Dipali Dalia: I mean, I love reading and I [00:51:40] think I think, you know, I was a bit of an all rounder at school. I’m going to sound like a bit of a but [00:51:45] I was an all rounder at school, you know, I was equally as good as English. In fact, I would probably say I was [00:51:50] probably better at English in history than I was at the sciences, but my path was kind of forged, so I went [00:51:55] with it. You know, I’m naturally inclined to that kind of thing, writing essays and so on. Um, [00:52:00] so it was the volume. What the thing that I found the hardest was retaining the information. Actually [00:52:05] in my 40s, that was I found and my brain was already full and [00:52:10] still being occupied by the previous subject. You know, I didn’t have a [00:52:15] blank canvas, you know, so it was difficult to retain the information. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:52:20] it’s a law conversion is one year.

Dipali Dalia: You can do it in one year, but I did it part time because I had to work. [00:52:25] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And then two years, then you start going barista training.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. So then I took a year [00:52:30] out because my dad was quite poorly. Um, and so we were juggling a lot with, with that. And then [00:52:35] I started the bar course in 2022. And that was [00:52:40] then. So the law conversion was online. So that was great. It was a, that’s the other [00:52:45] thing actually about the law conversion. You don’t learn as in depth the [00:52:50] subject as in depth as you do. If you’re doing a, you know, an LLB or whatever. Yeah. [00:52:55] So it is, it is.

Payman Langroudi: You were still practising to pay for all this. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah. Interesting. [00:53:00]

Dipali Dalia: Um, and then started the bar course and I was still working three days a week then. [00:53:05] Um, but that was uh, sort of weekend course where you’d go into college. So I was going up [00:53:10] to the University of Law in Bloomsbury, I love that. I just love the going back into a classroom [00:53:15] and and being taught rather than being the teacher. You know, that was that was it was [00:53:20] it was great.

Payman Langroudi: The funny thing is, it’s.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just sitting.

Dipali Dalia: There and just imbibing.

Payman Langroudi: Institutionalised. [00:53:25] There’s, there’s, there’s a comfort in it. It’s comforting where there [00:53:30] are rules and rules.

Dipali Dalia: And also I think I’m a very goal driven [00:53:35] person. Yeah. So I am the happiest when I’ve got something to achieve or I’ve [00:53:40] changed a bit now, you know, things are my brain has shifted. But at that time, you [00:53:45] know, I loved kind of having that next piece of coursework to do. Having that next piece of advocacy [00:53:50] to prepare or whatever. Um, and, and I’ve just always [00:53:55] taken studying very seriously, you know, and I am, you know, I do work [00:54:00] hard, but I, but I enjoyed it. It was, it was seven days a week though. So, you [00:54:05] know, my three days in practice, the two days I wasn’t in practice, I was studying and then weekend going [00:54:10] into college. So my poor husband really, um, really [00:54:15] was very understanding and supportive of, of, of all of this, you know, [00:54:20] so yeah. And then God, that’s so the first year split into two. [00:54:25] So I did it again over two years. You do criminal law in the first year in civil practice in the second year. [00:54:30] And I had major surgery in the, in my first year. So I deferred my exams [00:54:35] till the August of that year, where I should have sat them in there in the June. And [00:54:40] then, yeah, the second year it was all civil practice really. Like you have to basically [00:54:45] essentially learn the civil procedure rules. There’s two thick books. [00:54:50] Well, predominantly one of them. It comes in two volumes, but called The White Book. [00:54:55] And you’ve got to learn this thing inside out, back to front. And my brain was not the criminal stuff, I think [00:55:00] was just more fun, even though I never would have been a criminal practitioner had I continued with it. [00:55:05] It just it just seemed a lot more interesting. [00:55:10] And those facts stuck in my head a lot better. Civil practice can be a little bit more dry, [00:55:15] so I struggled with that a bit more. But you know, I managed to managed [00:55:20] to get through.

Payman Langroudi: Were you open to, you know, leaving, uh, negligence work and doing [00:55:25] criminal law, for instance, or.

Dipali Dalia: Um, I would have if, if I’d secured a pupillage [00:55:30] where it was part of it, then I would have happily done it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Dipali Dalia: I think work as a criminal practitioner [00:55:35] is really tough. Yeah. You know, it’s um. Yeah. And [00:55:40] especially again, at my age, I don’t think it would have been so easy for me to, [00:55:45] to really to work that hard for such little money as well, to be honest. I’ll be [00:55:50] frank, completely frank with you. You know, there there is very little money in criminal practice. And when you have a house and you have a [00:55:55] mortgage, you know, you’ve got to think about your responsibilities as well. But I wouldn’t have minded [00:56:00] doing a little bit. Um, but yeah, so it was always going to be the sort of negligence, [00:56:05] but I was I was open to any area of civil practice. So, you [00:56:10] know, inquests, uh, clinical negligence, inquests, employment, [00:56:15] even um, through my work as a county court advocate, I, you know, [00:56:20] um, handled quite a lot of property work. So landlord and tenant cases, mortgage repossession [00:56:25] cases, things like that. So it’s quite open minded.

Payman Langroudi: You know, compare [00:56:30] and contrast. Yeah. Dentistry and, and law as far as [00:56:35] both the training and the life.

Dipali Dalia: So I think so things [00:56:40] that are similar are particularly as a specialist, you know, as a barrister, you’re kind of the specialist [00:56:45] and the solicitor is the general dentist. So you work on a referral basis, [00:56:50] I suppose you have duty of care to your um your referrer [00:56:55] as well as your client or your patient. You know, you’ve got to be um, communicating [00:57:00] with both of those triangle. Right? Yeah, exactly. And in a way that everyone [00:57:05] understands, everyone is is on board. Um, you know, you’re working to their instructions. [00:57:10] You can’t just go off on a tangent and do your own thing. It’s very much similar. Um, [00:57:15] and that you are, I suppose as a specialist barristers, let’s say if you are a clinical negligence [00:57:20] specialist, you’ve got a solicitor that’s slightly more generalist. They’re looking for you to really hone [00:57:25] the points that are going to be most relevant to your, you know, to give you that really deep [00:57:30] insight into that. Yeah, exactly. Um, so there’s [00:57:35] a lot of similarities there. Um, the difference is probably come in. [00:57:40]

Payman Langroudi: Well, let’s not forget it’s a privilege, both a privilege, right?

Dipali Dalia: Oh my God. [00:57:45]

Payman Langroudi: You know, you’re.

Dipali Dalia: Huge.

Payman Langroudi: We think we think in medical, you know, we’re privileged. We are. Yeah. [00:57:50] But that’s someone’s whole life you’re talking about.

Dipali Dalia: Oh my God, you’re right. [00:57:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And it’s, it’s a it’s a responsibility. A huge responsibility goes with that privilege.

Dipali Dalia: Huge responsibility. [00:58:00] Absolutely. And and this is why I say, you know, you’ve got this duty [00:58:05] of care, you know, and it’s it’s very much a profession that is, is based [00:58:10] in being absolutely and utterly honest. You know, you cannot be [00:58:15] dishonest or hide anything very much as, as, as expected of us and [00:58:20] dentistry, you know, um, so yeah, a huge privilege. Um, [00:58:25] and, and, and very stressful because, you know, it’s similar responsibility [00:58:30] that goes with it.

Payman Langroudi: So the differences.

Dipali Dalia: The differences I think are that, [00:58:35] um, you know, in dentistry from when you start practising [00:58:40] pretty much, of course in your first few years, you know, you are, um, [00:58:45] you’re probably working in mixed NHS and private practice or whatever. Um, [00:58:50] you really have to build up your um skills and your portfolio [00:58:55] and your relationships with your solicitors to get good instructions and become sort [00:59:00] of doing the kind of work that really is then going to be paying you well. So there is [00:59:05] a time of uncertainty is when you’re very junior, I suppose, um, you [00:59:10] could be instructed on a case, you know, the night before you might be [00:59:15] given the papers the night before, you’ll be up all night. You’ll be working, you’ll be in court in the morning. [00:59:20] You know, that’s what you’ve got to do in dentistry. It’s very civilised. [00:59:25] You’re in a 9 to 5 profession. You know exactly where you are, and you don’t have to take your work home with you unless you [00:59:30] own a practice different, different matter altogether. But as an associate, you know, as [00:59:35] long as you’re proficient in doing your letters or whatever it is, you will be leaving your work at work. [00:59:40] Um, I certainly know barristers who, who will be, you [00:59:45] know, in preparing for trial for weeks and weeks and weeks beforehand [00:59:50] and you might be working from home, you might be in chambers, but you could be working from 7:00 [00:59:55] in the morning till 10:00 at night. You know, there is no end to that work. Um, [01:00:00] and then you won’t necessarily be in court all the time as a junior, you might [01:00:05] be doing a bit more, um, sort of more simple cases. So you’re in court a [01:00:10] lot more, but as you become more senior, you know, you’ll be sort of doing, like I say, bigger trials and [01:00:15] more prep.

Payman Langroudi: And maybe I’m not, I’m not familiar with it. Yeah. But the, the law [01:00:20] side sounds more stressful than the Dental. What would you which [01:00:25] would you say is a more stressful job?

Dipali Dalia: I think it’s that it’s that it’s.

Dipali Dalia: The immediacy [01:00:30] of the stress and it’s the consistency of the stress. So every [01:00:35] if you’re working in practice five days a week, from the minute you sit down to the minute you get [01:00:40] up.

Payman Langroudi: That relentless.

Dipali Dalia: You’re relentlessly managing one on one. [01:00:45] A person who is nervous, who doesn’t want to be there, [01:00:50] who thinks you’re a charlatan and is trying to, you know, you’re managing. Not only that, your [01:00:55] team, your nurse, your time, that it’s so immediate that stress.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [01:01:00] a barrister. You’re more of a lone wolf.

Dipali Dalia: As a barrister. You’re very much a lone wolf. Yeah, [01:01:05] yeah. And and that there will.

Payman Langroudi: Have pluses and minuses. Right?

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, [01:01:10] absolutely.

Dipali Dalia: And I guess, you know, as you again, as you become, you might as a junior, [01:01:15] um, be led by a senior barrister or vice versa. [01:01:20] But a lot of the work you do on your own, it can be quite an isolating profession. Um, [01:01:25] but you know, I think that with the law, um [01:01:30] the, what’s the word I’m thinking of the implications of [01:01:35] what you do can be, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Severe.

Dipali Dalia: Quite severe. Exactly. I mean, the implications [01:01:40] of what we do can be quite severe as well. Um, but you’re [01:01:45] not expecting to come up against those problems on a daily basis.

Payman Langroudi: If you haven’t been involved [01:01:50] in the law. Luckily I’ve only once been involved with it, but if you haven’t been involved before [01:01:55] that time, you kind of as a as a man in the street, you kind of think, yeah, [01:02:00] it’s like the truth will out or something.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Whereas once [01:02:05] you get involved, you realise the quality of your lawyer. Like it’s [01:02:10] it’s everything. Yeah. Honestly, and the language they’re talking, it’s, it’s, [01:02:15] they’re talking their own language and what you say or do something that your lawyers. [01:02:20]

Dipali Dalia: It’s how the evidence comes out. Yeah. Yeah. Like I did a couple of, um, small [01:02:25] claims trials, um, as part of the advocacy work. And, you [01:02:30] know, actually when you listen to your client’s version of events, [01:02:35] they seem quite plausible. But when the judge is looking at the paper [01:02:40] evidence and then how your client is giving evidence when questioned by the other side, it’s [01:02:45] what that judge hears on the day. And who persuades that judge on the day that [01:02:50] is going to, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Swing it one way or.

Dipali Dalia: The other. Exactly. Exactly. And that is [01:02:55] down to how good your witness is, how good your solicitor’s preparation has been, [01:03:00] and how good your questioning has been to elicit the another thing.

Payman Langroudi: Another thing you’re [01:03:05] not properly prepared for as a civilian, let’s call it, is you think there’s been a grievance? [01:03:10] Right. You’re not sure? You think there has been a grievance? You can find [01:03:15] a lawyer and you say, I’ve got this grievance. And the lawyer just basically says, yeah, yeah, I can see that. [01:03:20] I can see what you’re saying because, you know, there is a there’s an argument that says you’ve got a grievance. Yeah. As a civilian, [01:03:25] you think that’s it? That’s it. I’ve got a grievance. And the lawyer said I have as well. And you think that’s that’s [01:03:30] the end of it. That’s the very beginning. Yeah.

Dipali Dalia: No, exactly, exactly. And then [01:03:35] it’s the nitty gritty about the law and the legal precedents there might have been before, or, you know, [01:03:40] what is actually illegal or legal or, you know, what is. So yeah, it’s [01:03:45] they say the law is an ass. And, and, you know, there have been a number of times [01:03:50] where I thought, how can this be? But, you know.

Payman Langroudi: It’s one of those professions you can’t [01:03:55] live with and you can’t live with that bit like dentists, I guess.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: What I found, I mean, some of the cleverest people I’ve ever [01:04:00] come across are lawyers. Mhm. Oh, definitely. Um, and the difference [01:04:05] in a good and a great lawyer is what I think.

Dipali Dalia: Well, as [01:04:10] a barrister, I think the difference between a good and a great barrister is how you can think on your feet in that moment. [01:04:15] You know, when a being able to control what your witness is bringing [01:04:20] out, not allowing them to go off on a tangent, whereas you’re you’re so well prepared [01:04:25] that you know exactly what your story is, exactly what your facts are, and [01:04:30] you’re only asking questions that you know the answer to. But then if you’re challenged that you [01:04:35] can think on your feet immediately to circumvent that challenge. And [01:04:40] some people just have it’s about being logical, knowing, [01:04:45] preparation, knowing what you’re talking about being logical, but also [01:04:50] being very clear and confident in your delivery as to, you [01:04:55] know, make someone think, oh yeah, you know what? Actually, I kind of get [01:05:00] your point.

Payman Langroudi: And that delivery that is really reliant on like an amazing grasp of English, [01:05:05] right? That the language, the right word at the right time.

Dipali Dalia: Yes. [01:05:10] It requires such precision. Yeah, it really does. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, like you don’t [01:05:15] know. You okay? You were good at English and when you were 16 or something, but you don’t know. You don’t know [01:05:20] if you’ve got what you have. Do they teach able to how how do they teach that. [01:05:25]

Dipali Dalia: Have advocacy classes? Yeah. So, um, so you’re [01:05:30] basically, you know, you’re taught how to cross-examine, do an examination [01:05:35] in chief, which is to, um, basically question your own client, bring [01:05:40] out their story, how to do a cross-examination. So that’s to get your own story [01:05:45] across in a way that really doesn’t matter what your. So you’re asking [01:05:50] closed questions, not open questions. Um, kind of making applications [01:05:55] to a judge. So how to use case law or statutes in order to, um, [01:06:00] bolster your argument that you’re trying to make to the judge for them to, to grant you a certain application [01:06:05] of some sort. But yeah, so that’s part and parcel of, of the training and, and it is sort [01:06:10] of something you will continue to do all the way through your career as a barrister. [01:06:15] Um, there’s advocacy training that goes on all the time. But [01:06:20] what I definitely have learned witnessing because I’ve done so much work experience as well, sort [01:06:25] of watching barristers, is that the most, the people [01:06:30] who speak in the most simple, concise way and don’t use flowery language [01:06:35] and don’t try and act all clever, are the ones that tend to be the [01:06:40] most persuasive because they’re the easiest to understand. They’re just getting their point across [01:06:45] without, you know, and judges hate it. Judges hate it when there’s all this, you [01:06:50] know. Too many words. They don’t like too many [01:06:55] words. They’re like, just get to the point because they don’t know the case. They will have flicked through [01:07:00] the case papers. They’ll get a gist of it. They’ll go, they’re relying on you as the [01:07:05] barrister to simplify it and give them the bare facts so they can make a judgement. [01:07:10] You’re the mouthpiece for your client, but you’re also assisting the court.

Payman Langroudi: What about the tactics? [01:07:15] Because one barrister will say, let’s go this way, and another barrister [01:07:20] will say, let’s go that way.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, I mean, I suppose that’s case dependent, isn’t it. You know, it [01:07:25] depends.

Payman Langroudi: But are there like, is there like, is there a barrister that’s like more risk [01:07:30] averse? And one that’s more like, you know, is that what’s the difference between different barristers? [01:07:35]

Dipali Dalia: Like, yeah, I mean, I don’t, I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, the, the solicitors, the ones who know the answer to [01:07:40] this, like, how does the solicitor typical virus. How does he know.

Dipali Dalia: Who to pick? I mean, like, how does a [01:07:45] general dentist pick a specialist? It’s like, you know, experience. You know, you’ve seen them, you’ve seen, [01:07:50] you’ve either seen.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve used them before.

Dipali Dalia: You’ve used them before you, you know, or [01:07:55] the, or the client comes back to you and says, oh my God, they’re amazing. They were so good. You know, I was so happy [01:08:00] to have them in my in my corner, you know, all of these things are gonna persuade a solicitor [01:08:05] to I don’t I think it will. I think every barrister is going to be like every dentist. [01:08:10] It’s, you know, the personality, there’s so many permutations. There are so many [01:08:15] factors that will influence how a barrister is on that day. It might be that that [01:08:20] that judge they’ve been in front of before. They know how to handle that judge in a particular [01:08:25] way. They know that that judge isn’t going to like X, Y, or Z. So they’re going to behave in this way. [01:08:30] Um, yeah, I think I don’t think it’s as clear cut as. [01:08:35]

Payman Langroudi: And then the client can get very emotional, right? With it goes the right or wrong way? [01:08:40]

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How did you manage that? Is that is that similar to a dentist?

Dipali Dalia: I mean, I guess, yeah, [01:08:45] it’s I suppose the difference is that when you’re a barrister, [01:08:50] the outcome depends on the judge’s decision. And all [01:08:55] you can do is your best for the client. And all you can reassure your client of is, [01:09:00] I will do my absolute best for you, you know, whatever the outcome. And [01:09:05] you’ve got to be honest. You’ve got to say, look, these are the pros of your case. These are the cons of your case. [01:09:10] You know, it is likely that these things are going to work [01:09:15] out in your favour, but this might not. And so you’ve got you’ve got to tell them the strengths and weaknesses of [01:09:20] their own case. You’ve got to kind of prepare them. But the decision [01:09:25] rests with the judge. As a dentist, it’s all about what skills [01:09:30] are in your hands. It’s all about your decision making. It’s about how you perform that skill or that [01:09:35] task. So it’s all about you.

Payman Langroudi: So you’ve got the the biology, [01:09:40] the the the the the patient response.

Dipali Dalia: Well exactly. Well, yes. Absolutely. Of course. Are [01:09:45] they using their tips.

Payman Langroudi: Or not as you reminded me.

Dipali Dalia: But but it is I mean, I think that’s. Yeah. [01:09:50] It’s yeah. I mean, I think if you prepare your your [01:09:55] client and explain why their case, you [01:10:00] know, well, they more likely to win or not, then at least they’ll be prepared. Like if you [01:10:05] consent a patient for, you know, this tooth.

Payman Langroudi: Has.

Dipali Dalia: Got 70% bone [01:10:10] loss and a furcation involvement. You know, I’m not really going to be able to tell you what the prognosis is until [01:10:15] I’ve treated this tooth, but I’ll do my very best. Be prepared. You know, all [01:10:20] that peri implantitis thing we were talking about, be prepared. This may not work out, but we can give it a go. [01:10:25]

Payman Langroudi: So let’s now go on to, I guess, the the painful reality [01:10:30] that the grass isn’t always greener on the other side. I mean, yeah, You [01:10:35] massive time, money risk, investment [01:10:40] in this. Let’s just say this. If you had have gotten the pupillage. [01:10:45] Yeah. Do you think you would have carried on or do you think overall you decided dentistry [01:10:50] is better than than.

Dipali Dalia: I think if I had got pupillage, that would have felt like [01:10:55] a big step towards continuing.

Payman Langroudi: But you kind of ran out of [01:11:00] gas like mentally when you didn’t get.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. I think well, no. Well, I think like I say, it was after I [01:11:05] lost my dad, that’s when everything changed. You know, I was ready to give it another round of applications, [01:11:10] you know, and like I say, I was working in the county courts to get some advocacy [01:11:15] experience. All of these things. I was really doing everything I possibly could to make [01:11:20] this thing work for me. And then I [01:11:25] lost my dad, and I just thought it was the realisation [01:11:30] that this man had worked so hard all his life, [01:11:35] and he had done so much for the family. I mean, he came to England [01:11:40] when he was 25. He had the weight of the [01:11:45] expectations of his family. You know, one of his brothers businesses [01:11:50] had not done well. Another brother had some problems in his his work. [01:11:55] So everything was like on him. And, you know.

Payman Langroudi: He was it.

Dipali Dalia: Was.

Payman Langroudi: That he turned up.

Dipali Dalia: 68, [01:12:00] 69, sorry. February 69th.

Payman Langroudi: Different Britain as well. Right. Totally different. [01:12:05]

Dipali Dalia: My God. And what they endured. My mum was 21, 22 when she came to this country [01:12:10] and as children they worked so hard, so hard to, you [01:12:15] know, give people back home a life. But to bring up, give us every [01:12:20] opportunity. I mean, they’re just incredible. And then, you [01:12:25] know, he had a heart attack at 48. Had a quadruple bypass Then [01:12:30] slow down after that working and retired [01:12:35] at about 6667 and then got dementia. Not that we realised [01:12:40] until about, you know, sort of seven, eight years later. And [01:12:45] don’t get me wrong, they had a great life and they travelled and they, you know, really [01:12:50] enjoyed themselves as well. But he worked and worked and worked [01:12:55] and then didn’t feed his soul because then he didn’t know what to do [01:13:00] after he retired. He loved cricket, as every Indian dad does, but [01:13:05] he didn’t really have because he’d never given himself the time to find hobbies. Or, you [01:13:10] know, what shall I do in my next chapter? I think it was a bit lost.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:13:15] think anytime anyone passes away, it’s almost like [01:13:20] a lens zooms in on you and anyone, let alone your [01:13:25] dad.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. And so then I just suddenly had this flip, and I thought, why [01:13:30] am I doing am. Who am I trying to impress by doing all of that? Like, [01:13:35] what is the point? What is the point in me? Yeah, it could be great. It could be a wonderful [01:13:40] career, but at what cost? 60 hour weeks when I’m just about to turn 50, not [01:13:45] spending any time with my mum. Junior lawyers as a junior lawyer would do at [01:13:50] least you know, my mum’s 79. I want to make her [01:13:55] life easy. I want to be there for every hospital appointment. I want to, you [01:14:00] know, take her out, go on holiday with her. You know, we’re going to have a finite period [01:14:05] of time with her. Do I want to waste this precious time that I have.

Payman Langroudi: Particularly seeing dementia [01:14:10] in your dad, right. Because it’s not you know, someone said to me once I was much younger. I didn’t [01:14:15] understand what he meant. He said, talk to your parents while you still can. This is a big thing. I thought [01:14:20] he meant before they pass away. But even if it’s not diagnosed as dementia, [01:14:25] as they get older, they become harder and harder to talk to.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:14:30] so you know your points, right about your mum, you know, while you still can be there, it makes [01:14:35] sense. But it’s a really interesting thing that these itches that we [01:14:40] want to scratch the things we want to achieve. Yeah. The, I [01:14:45] guess what you’re saying is in the end, you’re kind of become aware that you’re not going to be around [01:14:50] forever.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. At this age we do. Yeah. Why? We just had this event at [01:14:55] Ministry of Sound. I call it crisis.

Dipali Dalia: I like.

Payman Langroudi: That.

Dipali Dalia: That’s [01:15:00] very good.

Payman Langroudi: Before I die. But but suddenly dying becomes a [01:15:05] question in your head. Yeah. Um, and then, you know, the, what you were saying [01:15:10] before about sort of almost being defined by the next goal.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. [01:15:15] Yeah. So that’s now I think it.

Payman Langroudi: Must be quite empowering now not to have.

Dipali Dalia: That. [01:15:20] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And actually ladder to climb. The whole time.

Dipali Dalia: I felt I felt very empowered making the decision [01:15:25] to stop. And actually, if you ask me, what is the thing that I’m most proud of [01:15:30] in my life is that.

Payman Langroudi: I love that.

Dipali Dalia: It’s that is knowing what is [01:15:35] serving me, knowing what and not caring. You [01:15:40] know, I don’t care if people what people think or what that happens to you naturally [01:15:45] anyway, when you turn 4045. But really.

Payman Langroudi: Even yourself. Even yourself. Yeah, like [01:15:50] there’s so many ways of looking at a thing. Yeah, you can be reductive about it and say, I [01:15:55] wasted time and money.

Dipali Dalia: No.

Payman Langroudi: Or you could, you can, you can say, you know, I looked into something. It’s a hobby, [01:16:00] you know, it’s I learned something. Yeah. You know, they’re both this exact same situation. Exactly. [01:16:05] But looked at from two different perspectives.

Dipali Dalia: But what’s really interesting is, is, you know, as as it [01:16:10] does happen to, to a lot of people is, you know, after dad died, I kind of started reading a bit [01:16:15] more Hindu philosophy and sort of and one of the big things is it’s about [01:16:20] the action, not the outcome. Don’t give attachment to the outcome of the action. Because [01:16:25] if you attach, if you are worrying too much about what the end point is [01:16:30] going to be, you’re not really being mindful about what you’re doing. It’s [01:16:35] the journey, you know, and that really resonated with me that [01:16:40] I could be worrying all the time what’s going to happen if, you know, um, I [01:16:45] don’t know if I don’t practice the law or what will people think? [01:16:50] Or oh, if I can only work two days a week in this practice, what’s going to happen? You know, just keep [01:16:55] going. Just do it. And also, nothing should frighten you from taking that step. You [01:17:00] know, if you do have it could be you want to be a [01:17:05] singer, right? And you’re in your 50s and you think, oh, I’ve never sung, go and have a singing class. [01:17:10] Go and sing with a choir. Nothing should stop you from feeling [01:17:15] the joy, from doing the thing that you want to do.

Payman Langroudi: It’s, you know that you. [01:17:20] We convince ourselves, right, of of the boundaries of our our [01:17:25] life and we blame those things. Sometimes I made some crappy excuses [01:17:30] for why I didn’t do whatever it was, whether it was like, why didn’t, why didn’t, why [01:17:35] didn’t enlighten raise £5 million in the first five years of losing 600,000? [01:17:40] Yeah, because I made it up in my own head. I didn’t want someone else controlling [01:17:45] my company or whatever. We make excuses. Yeah, but but what the point you’re making is [01:17:50] that we have agency. And as I say, [01:17:55] as we get older, we realise now’s the time to act.

Dipali Dalia: But but part of that age, part [01:18:00] of that agency is saying, I don’t want that. I don’t want that person in my.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever it is, whatever [01:18:05] it is.

Dipali Dalia: Or I don’t. Yeah, I don’t want this now. And it’s, you know, and it’s okay because, and I, [01:18:10] I’ve really become a firm believer in everything will work out. Everything [01:18:15] happens for a reason. I.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t believe [01:18:20] a lot of religious people are in that mode.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. I’m not, I’m not. I wouldn’t say I believe in [01:18:25] God, but I, but I do believe then. Yeah. Because I think, yeah, kismet, [01:18:30] destiny, karma, you know, that there’s a reason for why [01:18:35] we’re here and why we do what we do. Um, that’s a whole, that’s going to be a whole other [01:18:40] conversation, you know, and I’m, I’m very in the very early throes of learning.

Payman Langroudi: Things happen for [01:18:45] a reason.

Dipali Dalia: Things happen for a reason. And, you know, the bad things that happen for you are it’s a, it’s [01:18:50] testing who you are and it’s testing your, um, your [01:18:55] mettle, you know, your resilience. And you will learn if you think back to every crappy [01:19:00] thing that’s happened to you. Yeah. And I would go, I would say I wouldn’t change [01:19:05] anything that happened in my life because I know that I’ve grown from the negative thing that has held [01:19:10] the bad thing. That’s bad in inverted commas. Thing has happened to me and things happen [01:19:15] as a pivot, right? So when I qualified and I applied for [01:19:20] VAT, I didn’t get VAT. I was in the top three of my year qualifying from [01:19:25] dental school. There are three of us that had or two of us that had three distinction vivas. Right? [01:19:30] So let’s say I was number two. I didn’t get VAT right. So [01:19:35] that academic excellence meant nothing. So then a very good friend of mine, David [01:19:40] to Sarah.

Payman Langroudi: I know David.

Dipali Dalia: You know David, he’s such a sweetheart. So he was working [01:19:45] in a practice in Surbiton with a guy called Arif Lalani. And Arif ran the um [01:19:50] Kingston um scheme scheme. And David [01:19:55] very kindly asked Arif, look, do you think we can make. There was this new scheme that was starting called the Newham [01:20:00] Scheme. Right. So they got me.

Payman Langroudi: Otherwise known as the Narm scheme. Yeah. I’m [01:20:05] joking, I’m joking, I’m joking. My, my brother’s a doctor. He did a stint in Newham. [01:20:10]

Dipali Dalia: Oh I see, oh.

Payman Langroudi: They used to call that.

Dipali Dalia: Like and and. Yeah. And [01:20:15] so, so I, you know, and I got through that and then, you [01:20:20] know, I did did this house job and then I wanted a job at guys in pathology [01:20:25] and oral pathology. I didn’t get that. So I ended up [01:20:30] doing the oral surgery job from the oral surgery job came my perio thing, the [01:20:35] early doors of my conversion to law. I got a scholarship from Inner [01:20:40] Temple, I got a scholarship from the University of Law. I was getting, you know, mini pupillages, [01:20:45] um, which you have to apply for. And then they shortlist you and they select every door [01:20:50] was opening until they closed until that door closed. And then I pivoted. [01:20:55] I just feel that it was all supposed to happen in that way too.

Payman Langroudi: For [01:21:00] like, you, you, you’re, you’re so used to succeeding [01:21:05] that you hadn’t ever failed properly. Like, I don’t know, [01:21:10] I was never top of anything. Yeah. I wasn’t top of my school class. I was nowhere near [01:21:15] top of the Dental class. I failed left, right and centre, whereas someone who’s like, I [01:21:20] worry for my son, you know, he’s always done very, very well. There’s going to come a moment.

Dipali Dalia: I know there will. [01:21:25] But I think I think you almost have to remind kids that are going [01:21:30] through that and which something I learned probably later on is that you [01:21:35] have to just take it’s going to come like that failure is going to come, but it’s not a [01:21:40] failure. It’s a redirect. Yeah. You know, and that there [01:21:45] are certain things that are in your control, but there are certain things that aren’t in your control. [01:21:50] And if someone if in that pupillage interview, you just don’t come across [01:21:55] as being someone that they are convinced by, even though you are qualified [01:22:00] for nearly 25 years as a dentist and you are a very responsible, [01:22:05] effective practitioner, you know, they’re just not going to be convinced [01:22:10] by you. But that’s okay because something else will happen and something else will come. It is [01:22:15] again, it’s about this. All this. Think about the action and not the outcome kind of thing, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Do you think you’re [01:22:20] a happier periodontist now than you were before?

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. Because I think I don’t feel like there’s [01:22:25] something else out there waiting for me. Mhm. I, you know, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve opened [01:22:30] that door. I’ve had a look and I’ve gone. Oh, actually, look at this job. [01:22:35] I have been here for so long. My team is amazing. My patients I’ve since [01:22:40] I’ve been off, when I’ve hurt my leg, I’ve had so many patients who’ve said, oh, no, we’ll wait for Deepali to [01:22:45] come back. We don’t really want to see anybody else for a periodontal review. You know, it’s not [01:22:50] anything grand, but that is so affirming. And [01:22:55] and actually, you know, I, I have been very effective and I’ve realised [01:23:00] I think for a long time I took for granted the impact that [01:23:05] I had on my patients. You know, you might do an anthill. [01:23:10] You might whiten someone’s teeth. They go, oh yeah, that’s great. They go away and [01:23:15] they love it and they’re smiling in photos and they’re, you know, feeling confident. [01:23:20] And it might, they might go on a date and meet someone. You don’t know the ripple effect of [01:23:25] that little thing that you’ve done.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve been amazed at Invisalign. My, my daughter’s [01:23:30] had my, my wife’s had my son’s had not Invisalign, but ortho. But the effect it has on them. [01:23:35] Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. And it’s so weird, I should know.

Dipali Dalia: And there are some things that you wouldn’t [01:23:40] even notice that someone’s got misalignment of their teeth, but they will focus on that thing.

Payman Langroudi: No, I’m [01:23:45] saying it’s only by living in the same house as them that have actually come to fully appreciate how good straight [01:23:50] teeth are for people. Yeah, exactly. So we do forget, especially when it’s it’s our day to day, we [01:23:55] forget.

Dipali Dalia: The thing.

Payman Langroudi: And you’ve kind of now come back and been reminded of.

Dipali Dalia: This.

Payman Langroudi: Important [01:24:00] things, right.

Dipali Dalia: And that even as a barrister, if I’d started practising now [01:24:05] or next year, I’d have really to be being [01:24:10] impactful for a person who I’m representing. I’d [01:24:15] have to be five, six, seven years down the line before I was that, you know, I can do it now. Mhm. [01:24:20] You know, and it is it’s, you know, we get paid well for what we [01:24:25] do. We can control our hours. I can do, you know, two days a week, three days [01:24:30] a week. I can do whatever I want. I can make it fit around me. What’s [01:24:35] not what’s not to love? What’s not to love? And it’s. Yeah. No, [01:24:40] it’s it’s a very interesting journey that I’ve had. And if anyone [01:24:45] is just thinking that they want to try something different, my [01:24:50] advice to them is just go try it. It just if it doesn’t work out, it’s fine.

Payman Langroudi: We [01:24:55] define ourselves. We, we define ourselves as dentists. And I think that our skills aren’t transferable, but [01:25:00] they definitely are.

Dipali Dalia: Oh, definitely.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I know, I know a guy. He was a doctor and [01:25:05] he became a barrister. Oh, yeah. And his mum was a doctor. His dad was a barrister and [01:25:10] he kind of switched allegiance. Did both. Yeah. And he’s now he’s still a barrister. [01:25:15] He’s. Yeah. He’s. Yeah he’s good. I was I was talking to him about impact. I was saying do you think you’ve had [01:25:20] more impact in law. And he he did family law.

Dipali Dalia: Right. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: He didn’t [01:25:25] want to do family law. He wanted to do human rights or something.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s the same thing they were talking about. Yeah yeah yeah. [01:25:30] But it’s the same thing. Yeah. Getting a pupil is just such a big deal. Um and he said yeah, I think I’ve [01:25:35] had more impact as a barrister.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. How long was he a doctor for though.

Payman Langroudi: Five. [01:25:40] Six years. Not long.

Dipali Dalia: That’s the thing though isn’t it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Dipali Dalia: It’s the longevity of the time that you’ve [01:25:45] had in that speciality. I mean you I’ve got I’ve got a friend who was a consultant neurosurgeon [01:25:50] and now she’s a barrister. Yeah. I mean, she.

Payman Langroudi: Stopped practising.

Dipali Dalia: For about [01:25:55] five years I think. Um but yeah, so she, she [01:26:00] became disillusioned with, with, you know, medicine or whatever and then tried. But one [01:26:05] might argue that as a consultant neurosurgeon, you know, there are a paediatric consultant [01:26:10] neurosurgeon. Goodness me. You know, so it’s but that didn’t it just wasn’t suiting [01:26:15] her.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me, how do you think differently to the rest of us about, um, our friends, [01:26:20] the dental law partnership?

Dipali Dalia: No.

Payman Langroudi: Do [01:26:25] you not look at them from the legal side, like.

Dipali Dalia: No, it’s about.

Payman Langroudi: It’s still [01:26:30] ambulance chasing is the lowest form of law, right?

Dipali Dalia: Every [01:26:35] patient should have recourse, right, if they’re treated negligently. That’s [01:26:40] what that’s what it’s all there for. And, you know, I’ve seen patients come into my practice [01:26:45] who have been seeing the same general dentist for 20 years and have undiagnosed [01:26:50] raging perio. They’re about to lose their teeth and they’re in their early [01:26:55] 50s. It’s not right. There should be recourse, right? There’s a place for all of that. But [01:27:00] the point at which it becomes a fishing expedition. Look, [01:27:05] I don’t know enough about them, but from what I hear, you know, or any any company, when [01:27:10] it becomes a fishing expedition and you start going through all the notes and you start kind of like no [01:27:15] one is perfect, everyone is fallible. Why is there this belief that dentists should [01:27:20] be absolutely perfect at everything, yet everyone else gets a break, you know? Yeah. [01:27:25] And, and where it becomes destructive and where it has this knock on effect, [01:27:30] right. So dental law partnership comes after you. You call your indemnity for advice. [01:27:35] Indemnity gives you some advice. There is a belief amongst some people that [01:27:40] then your premiums go up, you know, and this is all, then they won’t. Then they ask you [01:27:45] to settle. They won’t defend you. Right. Then the patient gets their case settled. So they think, [01:27:50] ah, okay, I’ll tell my friend. Friend goes, this, this whole shift [01:27:55] in the whole dynamic because of this pursuit of.

Payman Langroudi: You know, they [01:28:00] buy all the dental cases.

Dipali Dalia: Do they?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Dipali Dalia: I didn’t know that. [01:28:05]

Payman Langroudi: Because they, they figured out how to make money out of dental cases. Right. They if, [01:28:10] if, if a negligence case comes into any lawyer, they know they can sell it to dental law partnership. [01:28:15]

Dipali Dalia: I had no idea. There you.

Payman Langroudi: Go.

Dipali Dalia: It just shows how disengaged I am with all of that. [01:28:20] But, um, yeah, I mean, you know what? This is ultimately at the heart [01:28:25] of what we do is caring for people. And if you can find a way to vilify [01:28:30] people, for caring for people, there’s got to be a bit of an issue in that, hasn’t [01:28:35] there? Just, you know, from a moral viewpoint.

Payman Langroudi: I just thought maybe because you’ve been on the other side, maybe, [01:28:40] you.

Dipali Dalia: Know, I mean, like I say where, where it is, where someone has behaved [01:28:45] in a negligent manner, they should be held to account.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, absolutely.

Dipali Dalia: But you can’t [01:28:50] chase just for your business, you know. Not that I’m saying that they are, but if that is part [01:28:55] of their model, that it’s that they’re doing well financially because they’re maybe [01:29:00] doing a bit more or chasing, you know, these cases a bit more and they know we no win, no [01:29:05] fee thing is, you know, I don’t know. It just doesn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Unfortunately, [01:29:10] we come to the end of our.

Dipali Dalia: Time while with me, but oh thank you.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve really enjoyed it.

Dipali Dalia: I [01:29:15] really enjoyed it too. Yeah. How long has it been?

Payman Langroudi: Hour and a half.

Dipali Dalia: Oh, [01:29:20] wow.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Gosh.

Dipali Dalia: It’s been really good.

Payman Langroudi: But the final questions [01:29:25] that we always ask everyone.

Dipali Dalia: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a fancy dinner party.

Dipali Dalia: Oh my goodness. Now [01:29:30] I have been thinking about.

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive.

Dipali Dalia: I have been thinking about this and I [01:29:35] actually was asked as a pupillage, um, the, uh, question, a paper question. [01:29:40]

Payman Langroudi: Same question.

Dipali Dalia: Same question.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Dipali Dalia: And, and I was looking back at my answers and I [01:29:45] was thinking, God, this is so contrived. I put Gandhi, Banksy, um, [01:29:50] Malala. I was like, oh, for God’s sake, I wouldn’t have given myself an interview either. Um, [01:29:55] who would I?

Payman Langroudi: Banksy is a good one.

Dipali Dalia: Banksy is a good one. Well, yeah. Um, [01:30:00] I think, oh, there’s, uh, Elizabeth Holmes.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah. Just [01:30:05] to find out.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like, what was she thinking?

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. What what was going on in that brain [01:30:10] of hers? I think that would be really interesting. Yeah, yeah, that was mad [01:30:15] like how you can and where that insane self-belief [01:30:20] and confidence came from [01:30:25] to convince presidents, you know, that what she was [01:30:30] doing was this groundbreaking thing when there was nothing to back it up.

Payman Langroudi: It becomes like a pyramid scheme in the end, you know, [01:30:35] you have to keep on going. Yeah.

Dipali Dalia: This is it, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting guess though.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. So [01:30:40] she she’s she’s an interesting one. Um, I think one of my ancestors [01:30:45] on like a maternal ancestor, great grandmother, great great grandmother. [01:30:50]

Payman Langroudi: Someone you haven’t.

Dipali Dalia: Met, someone I haven’t met because, You know, certainly [01:30:55] on my dad’s side of the family, like all the cousins were made to learn every single [01:31:00] grandfather, great grandfather and so on and so on. We haven’t got a clue what any of the grandmothers [01:31:05] names are. Don’t know what their experiences were. Nothing. So that that’s. [01:31:10]

Payman Langroudi: An interesting thing. They say it’s less than 0.1% of [01:31:15] the population know the name of their grandmother’s grandmother.

Dipali Dalia: Really?

Payman Langroudi: No [01:31:20] way. It’s not that far away. You know your grandmother’s grandmother? Yeah. That’s crazy. [01:31:25]

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, well, yeah, we’ve got about, I think on my on my dad’s side, I think it was about 8 or 9 generations [01:31:30] of the of the fathers and a third person. Oh, I don’t know, someone mad [01:31:35] like Mozart or Caravaggio who was very, very amazing at what they did, [01:31:40] you know, real geniuses, but absolute lunatics. And Caravaggio [01:31:45] was a murdering, you know, absolute nightmare, [01:31:50] but painted these divine pictures and same with Mozart. Alcoholic. [01:31:55] That’s how he died, isn’t it? Young because of his alcoholism. Yeah. So someone who [01:32:00] is such a kind of dichotomy.

Payman Langroudi: I love this. Yeah, I love this. [01:32:05] And I’ll let you have that as well.

Dipali Dalia: Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll let you have that. I could tell from looking at your [01:32:10] your profile how close you were to him.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. He, um, I think I, I feel [01:32:15] like I’ve really I am who I am because of, of him and [01:32:20] that my I think my empathy and ability [01:32:25] to manage people has come from watching him manage his patients in [01:32:30] his pharmacy kind to a fault. So kind, but [01:32:35] wouldn’t take crap from anybody. He was.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a difficult balance, isn’t it? Very difficult.

Dipali Dalia: Balance. [01:32:40] Very. You know, he had such a level of self respect and he would [01:32:45] put you in your place in a really calm way. But you wouldn’t You wouldn’t [01:32:50] mess with him again, you know, and he wouldn’t take you and he would have his lines. You cannot [01:32:55] you cannot overstep that line with him. But he will be. And [01:33:00] he would always see things from other people’s point of view, even if people were a bit. You know, he [01:33:05] would, like I say, make his point. But then privately he would say, [01:33:10] yeah, but there’s a reason they’re behaving that way, you know? Think about take take a few steps [01:33:15] in their shoes and you might understand is really is fundamental, fundamental [01:33:20] to everything that we do, especially in our professions. When that person walks through the door [01:33:25] and the first comment is, I don’t want to pay for your holidays. Why [01:33:30] is that person feeling so, you know, threatened? Usually it’s it is [01:33:35] being nervous and you just want to kind of have a go back, right?

Payman Langroudi: Even [01:33:40] even that even even I think like, I don’t know, I’m not I’m no fan of Nigel Farage. [01:33:45] Yeah, yeah. But it’s very, very, very important for me to understand [01:33:50] why he has so many fans.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I understand.

Dipali Dalia: Absolutely. [01:33:55]

Payman Langroudi: It’s very it’s very easy to say, oh, I think he’s a racist or whatever. Whatever you think he is. I [01:34:00] don’t actually like him. He’s funny. Yeah. But but in which in whichever [01:34:05] area, whichever area you think you’re on one side or the other, very important to understand [01:34:10] the other.

Dipali Dalia: Understand the other point. Otherwise you won’t have the conviction of your own point because [01:34:15] you’re just brainwashed then, aren’t you? And you know, and there are times where I’ve been very [01:34:20] staunchly on one side of an argument, but then, you know, I’ve read a bit more and I’ve thought, well, at least [01:34:25] I can see that.

Payman Langroudi: It’s good to be. I’m happy for you to be staunchly on one side, as long as you understand what the other side [01:34:30] is.

Dipali Dalia: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: You know.

Dipali Dalia: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: That’s that’s an important thing I find in our [01:34:35] profession sometimes, you know. You were saying it’s more collegiate in law.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: With us, based [01:34:40] on patient’s best interests, we can be bloody nasty to each other.

Dipali Dalia: But I. But I think some [01:34:45] of the patient’s.

Dipali Dalia: Best interests is, is all of us looking after [01:34:50] each other?

Payman Langroudi: No, no. But based on I’m talking for the patient. Yeah. I can say the worst [01:34:55] thing in the world to you. Yeah. Under the cover of. I’m doing this for the patient.

Dipali Dalia: Oh, I see what you mean. [01:35:00] Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Under the guise.

Payman Langroudi: Under the guise of. Under the protection.

Dipali Dalia: I’ve got the [01:35:05] patient’s best interest at heart, but actually, I’m just trying to.

Payman Langroudi: Actually, you’re a charlatan. Yeah. [01:35:10]

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. No, exactly. Exactly. It’s. Yeah. So?

Payman Langroudi: So it wasn’t so bad in law.

Dipali Dalia: Oh, [01:35:15] I’m sure there are people. But from my experience, like any. Even if.

Payman Langroudi: I’m [01:35:20] collaborative.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. Or any. I remember once going to see some, some pre-trial [01:35:25] preparation hearing of a criminal case and it was a murder case or something. And I was just [01:35:30] sitting there like, you know, and I saw the, the senior, the KC or QC, as he would have been at the time, [01:35:35] but his junior was with him. And I chased her out the courtroom and I was like, look, do you mind if I [01:35:40] contact you if I, you know, I’m just this is what I’m thinking of doing, gave me my gave me a [01:35:45] card. She said, email me. I’ll email you back so you know you’ve got the right you know, please contact me at any [01:35:50] time and any person, be it a Casey or a, [01:35:55] you know, senior or a junior or a pupil, I’ve everyone’s always [01:36:00] looking to push everyone else ahead there isn’t this. Well, if I, if I, if [01:36:05] I give you the tools to get ahead, I’m going to be left behind. There doesn’t seem to be [01:36:10] that. Now there might be within a speciality, within a clinical negligence speciality, or there was one guy actually [01:36:15] who I asked if I could shadow him, and then he tried to put me off the whole thing [01:36:20] full stop, because he didn’t didn’t want me treading on his, you know. Yeah. Um, treading [01:36:25] on his toes, but more often. And I just and you just see these two [01:36:30] barristers, they’ll be talking before the case and they won’t be [01:36:35] trying to do each other down.

Dipali Dalia: They will be trying to get rid of the issues that they [01:36:40] can agree before they have to go into the judge, because I guess the whole point of the barrister [01:36:45] is to assist the judge in making the decision whilst representing the best interests [01:36:50] of their, you know. So, so yeah, so it is, you’re coming from a slightly different place, [01:36:55] which I, I guess then doesn’t raise that competition level quite so much. Yeah. [01:37:00] Um, but yeah, it was people were just kind and supportive. You [01:37:05] know, there are a lot of arrogant. I mean, there, there are a lot of arrogant people as well, don’t get me [01:37:10] wrong. You know, people who just, you know, why do you want to why are you wasting your time doing this? [01:37:15] Blah, blah, blah, not just kind of being, you know, positive about it, but, um, [01:37:20] but yeah, I think amongst, and, but I do think that the senior [01:37:25] people, so I’ve, you know, looked through your list of people that you’ve, um, interviewed [01:37:30] and you’ve got some people who’ve done some amazing things, but, and in the few episodes [01:37:35] that I’ve listened to so far, even though these people have done these grand things. [01:37:40] The underlying thing that is theme is humility.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:37:45] know, you’re right. Often, often the people who achieved the most are the most [01:37:50] humble.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. Because they don’t have to prove anything to anyone. But also it’s probably [01:37:55] just their will to do their best. You know, and not to get one over anyone else that has driven [01:38:00] them and they’ve not been sidetracked by it as well. You know, it allows you to be focussed [01:38:05] in what you do and you’re not worrying about what anyone else is doing.

Payman Langroudi: Final question. Final question. Woman [01:38:10] in dentistry. Woman in law. Is there a difference? Is there.

Dipali Dalia: Uh, again, [01:38:15] I think to be honest, it’s hard for me to answer [01:38:20] that question because I haven’t spent enough time. [01:38:25]

Payman Langroudi: In.

Dipali Dalia: Law. In law. But from what I. [01:38:30] So, for example, this neurosurgeon that I was telling you about, she was, um, [01:38:35] quite small, looked quite young and was constantly underestimated. [01:38:40] She’d be in multidisciplinary meetings where, um, other surgeons [01:38:45] would be saying, oh, have you ever done one of these before? Because she’d be taking notes. They thought she was an HR or reg or [01:38:50] something, and she was a consultant. So she and she said she hadn’t really felt that at all in the law. [01:38:55] That’s one. That’s a that’s a case. That’s a case history. Right. So that’s not a randomised [01:39:00] controlled trial. But um, but I don’t, you know, from what I [01:39:05] experienced, again, the judges just want the facts and they just [01:39:10] want to, you know, I don’t think they’re underestimating you if you’re delivering [01:39:15] what they want. So yeah. And I think, um, in terms of numbers, [01:39:20] it’s definitely a lot more equal than it used to be. Male, female. Um, [01:39:25] and chambers are very like, they’re very hot on equality and making [01:39:30] it, you know, being flexible for mothers with kids and things like that. So Yeah, [01:39:35] yeah. And dentistry, I think again, it’s it depends on how [01:39:40] like I haven’t felt I have felt some things where [01:39:45] I probably am have been underestimated [01:39:50] when I was a lot younger by patients and [01:39:55] possibly by employers who think, oh, well, she’ll go off and have babies. And so, you know, you might not get certain jobs [01:40:00] or whatever. Um, but I think once they know you, you [01:40:05] know what you’re talking about, then I think patients, I’ve not had that much sexism [01:40:10] in dentistry, I feel, unless I just can’t remember it [01:40:15] because I’m so old.

Payman Langroudi: There certainly was plenty. It was, it was.

Dipali Dalia: Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it was pretty [01:40:20] much. I mean, back in our day, definitely there was much more of it than now. But I’d [01:40:25] say it’s one of the professions where, you know, it’s, it’s the it’s the relationship between [01:40:30] you and the patient.

Dipali Dalia: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a very direct relationship. You know, yeah. We’re not having to climb corporate [01:40:35] ladders.

Dipali Dalia: And.

Payman Langroudi: Things.

Dipali Dalia: No, no. Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Or, you know, glass ceilings in terms of pay.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah [01:40:40] yeah yeah. That’s very equal like that, which is great. And I guess, you know, I do have, [01:40:45] like I said, that trait that I’ve inherited from my dad of please don’t push me. Like if [01:40:50] you’re overstepping, you’ll soon know about it. Is that you as well? I’m quite yeah. I’m quite like [01:40:55] I, I get all the difficult patients when patients ring up to make appointments and then [01:41:00] reception are like, I think we need to put this one with Dipali because she’ll sort them out.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s [01:41:05] been amazing. It’s been amazing. Thank you. Thank you very much. Well, thank.

Dipali Dalia: You for having me.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for [01:41:10] listening, guys. Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure you tune in for future episodes. [01:41:15] Hit subscribe in iTunes or Google Play or whatever platform it is. And [01:41:20] you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you would, um, give.

Payman Langroudi: Us a six star rating. [01:41:25]

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. That’s what I always leave my Uber driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks [01:41:30] a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by enlighten. Enlighten is an advanced teeth whitening system. Join [00:00:05] us for online training where I’ll take you through everything you need to know about how to [00:00:10] assess a case quickly, how to use the system, how to talk to patients. Because when [00:00:15] you know you can deliver brilliant results, it’s so much easier to talk about it. To book your course, which takes [00:00:20] only an hour, it’s completely free. Visit enlighten Online training.com. [00:00:25] Now let’s get to the pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get to [00:00:35] go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:40] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:00:45]

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Bijan [00:00:50] Shukri onto the podcast. Bijan, funny spelling for your name. It’s perfect. I like it [00:00:55] because A.J. wouldn’t have done it. Yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: So I mean, this was a [00:01:00] big one when I was young. First of all, I love it that you can say my name properly. That’s one of the biggest things no one gets right the first time, obviously. [00:01:05] Fellow Iranian. Right? Yeah. But, uh, but yeah, Jay always looked wrong and it kind of people would say [00:01:10] Bijan, but.

Payman Langroudi: Did you decide yourself?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Uh, no, I can’t say.

Payman Langroudi: Obviously someone made a [00:01:15] decision there.

Bizhan Shokouhi: It might have been my parents. Right. But I’m glad because.

Payman Langroudi: I know loads of Bijan J’s.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah, [00:01:20] sure. Yeah. Me too.

Payman Langroudi: But you’re what, z h?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah, because z h you know, is so. [00:01:25]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, like in the Eastern European way, right?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I see, I see, of course. [00:01:30]

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That all makes a lot more sense. So Bijan is a specialist oral surgeon. [00:01:35] Um, I first heard about you through my other guest, Pavan. Yeah. Uh, [00:01:40] when I asked her what was her favourite resource book, internet, whatever. And she [00:01:45] said your Instagram page. And I thought, okay, she’s a periodontist. It must be perio [00:01:50] thing. And it turns out, you know, it’s an oral surgery page. And when [00:01:55] I started following you, suddenly I started getting interested in oral surgery. So brilliant [00:02:00] content, brilliant content, amazing content. I think for anyone who’s in dentistry [00:02:05] should be following. What’s it called? Doctor.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Doctor. Doctor.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah. Nice. [00:02:10] Nice complicated.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Name. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: We’ll put it into the show notes. Um, so that’s a pleasure [00:02:15] to have you. You are working as an implantologist oral surgeon [00:02:20] in private practice and teaching on several MSc [00:02:25] courses. Which ones are.

Bizhan Shokouhi: They. So the Bristol MSc in implants. [00:02:30]

Payman Langroudi: That one.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. And then I kind of teach a mentor just privately outside as well. But that’s, that’s [00:02:35] the main kind of didactic.

Payman Langroudi: Thing.

Bizhan Shokouhi: That I do.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And so are you there all the time.

Bizhan Shokouhi: No, no, [00:02:40] no, I couldn’t because there’s like a three hour commute for me. I couldn’t do.

Payman Langroudi: It. So it’s all remote.

Bizhan Shokouhi: So no, no, no. It’s like on [00:02:45] average it works out about ten days a year. Okay. So um, yeah, so we have [00:02:50] like, because I do at the moment clinical supervision, which means I’ll go in and [00:02:55] these are students that are seeing patients. So we’ll take them through the whole kind of process [00:03:00] of assessment and all the way through to the end surgery and restoring. And I’m there [00:03:05] for every stage. So it works out around ten days a year. I’m there with them. Um, yeah. Spread out [00:03:10] throughout the year.

Payman Langroudi: And your day guys, what do you do then?

Bizhan Shokouhi: So there I’m just one [00:03:15] of the specialists there. So it’s not a teaching role.

Payman Langroudi: Treating patients.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Treating patients. Yeah. So clinics [00:03:20] and I have an IV list basically. Um but yeah, as part of the job, there’s a lot [00:03:25] of teaching always incorporated into it just from yeah, from the more junior staff [00:03:30] kind of asking for help and so on. And there’s a little bit of undergrads coming and shadowing as well. But [00:03:35] it’s not, I’m not a, I’m not a, um, undergrad teacher, like a, I’m employed by [00:03:40] the trust as a staff.

Payman Langroudi: So your typical work week is four days in practice, one day in [00:03:45] guy’s and then here and there you.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Do, I do, um, on average, I would say three [00:03:50] days of clinical.

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Bizhan Shokouhi: So it works out about two days of practice, one day of guys [00:03:55] and then one day is always off. That’s like family time. And then one day [00:04:00] is teaching and mentoring.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Okay.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. So it’s very mixed. I couldn’t tell you [00:04:05] like each week would be slightly different, but the average is work out three days. [00:04:10] Clinical one day guys. And then one day teaching mentoring. Yeah. [00:04:15]

Payman Langroudi: So look I look at your work and it just screams excellence. [00:04:20] Thank you. And you know really, really detailed. I mean a lot of oral surgeons don’t don’t [00:04:25] get into emergence profiles and you know, beautiful lab work and, and [00:04:30] all of that. When did you become excellent? Were you always like, were you an excellent [00:04:35] six year old? Or like, do you do you think do you remember an inflection?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Um, [00:04:40] I mean, what you’re describing is the big difference between oral surgery and kind [00:04:45] of more perio implant side of things, right? And yeah, I see that a lot. And I think for good reason, [00:04:50] there’s this reputation that oral surgeons don’t have that aspect of it. But yeah, I’m glad [00:04:55] you see that because I hope I can show that that doesn’t have to be the case. But one of the biggest things I would say [00:05:00] is that I wasn’t always into oral surgery. So when I actually qualified, I didn’t even know I wanted to [00:05:05] be an oral surgeon.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Um, so I actually went into practice thinking I’m going to be a [00:05:10] restorative dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Bizhan Shokouhi: And yeah, I did a lot of restorative stuff. I did courses in that. And [00:05:15] that taught me a lot of things that are applicable now into implants. Right?

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. [00:05:20]

Bizhan Shokouhi: But then there came a point. I realised I like surgery more, so I put all my eggs into that. But but [00:05:25] that’s been. So what’s so good about the journey in terms of not just being an oral surgeon? So I’ve got all the [00:05:30] other aspects of dentistry that I can put into use.

Payman Langroudi: How many years were you in general practice before [00:05:35] you specialised?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Um. So I did, and then I did, um [00:05:40] one year in practice because at that point I didn’t even know I want to do kind of any [00:05:45] hospital jobs. Yeah. But then that year taught me that I actually don’t want to [00:05:50] be full time practice. So then only then. And this is kind of a funny way to do it [00:05:55] because most people do hospital first and then they decide. So I did practice first, but then I did a max fax job. Um, [00:06:00] and then that told me that I actually don’t want to be a full time hospital.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:06:05] that was where was that?

Bizhan Shokouhi: That was Sidcup. Queen Mary’s. Yeah, yeah. And this was [00:06:10] um, before, for example, their A&E closed down. So it was full on. It was like full on max fax and yeah, [00:06:15] uh, I hated it at first, but then I loved it. It was like amazing. And I encourage everyone [00:06:20] to do max fax. I think it’s one of those.

Payman Langroudi: How long did you do it for?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Just one year. That was enough to kind of.

Payman Langroudi: Make [00:06:25] it for you. What’s that? Makes a man of you? Yeah. I was gonna say.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Character building, right? You [00:06:30] kind of just have to get on with it. And it just makes you it doesn’t, you know, you don’t get phased as much as you would do [00:06:35] otherwise. Yeah, but but yeah, at the same time, I realised that Max fax is the thing is such [00:06:40] a lifestyle choice. Right.

Payman Langroudi: And yeah. Did you even consider doing medicine [00:06:45] and.

Bizhan Shokouhi: So not medicine. I never thought about doing medicine. So um, So [00:06:50] both my parents are doctors. I’ve got two brothers. The elder one is [00:06:55] the youngest, the elder one’s a doctor, the middle one’s a dentist. So I kind of I was lucky I could see what’s involved, [00:07:00] I suppose. And and yeah, medicine didn’t really appeal to me. [00:07:05]

Payman Langroudi: No, but I mean medicine after dentistry, like.

Bizhan Shokouhi: No, no, no, I mean, I guess that goes along [00:07:10] with what I’m just saying. Just even start with I never wanted to do so again. All of that is very much [00:07:15] you really have to love the job enough that. Yeah. And one thing I knew from [00:07:20] very early on was that I don’t want my job to be my life. You [00:07:25] know, as much as I love my job now, you know, I enjoy my life more than my job. [00:07:30] So and I think some of these things, you have to kind of commit to a lot more than others. And [00:07:35] don’t get me wrong, when I look back at what I’ve done.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, you look very committed. [00:07:40]

Bizhan Shokouhi: I was going to say there’s been a lot of hard work, but then medicine and then more.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:07:45] you mean you’re talking about you saw your parents and by the way, my brother’s doctor, [00:07:50] hospital consultant. I kind of see what you mean. It can be. It has to be sometimes all encompassing. [00:07:55] Yeah. So you saw that and early on decided that’s not for me.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Partly, [00:08:00] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of doctors are they?

Bizhan Shokouhi: So my dad’s a surgeon. My mom’s a internal [00:08:05] specialist. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Are they still working?

Bizhan Shokouhi: No, they’re retired now. But, um, [00:08:10] I would have loved to be a surgeon, by the way. Like something like neurosurgery. That that sounds amazing. [00:08:15] But when I saw what you have to do to get to that, and then the kind of life you have when [00:08:20] you become that. And then when I compared that to what dentistry could be, it just seemed [00:08:25] more of a balanced life, I suppose.

Payman Langroudi: And definitely.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah, I think most people would say [00:08:30] that. Right?

Payman Langroudi: Definitely. Especially if you’re talking UK. I mean, other countries, maybe [00:08:35] not. Maybe maybe the benefits can outweigh some. My my cousin’s [00:08:40] a psychiatrist in Arizona. Right. And okay, she came out [00:08:45] of university with a $500,000 of debt, but the amount [00:08:50] of money she can make.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Now about.

Payman Langroudi: That. And really like, it’s not what we were [00:08:55] saying about takes over your life. She’s medical director of something and [00:09:00] she said, so how often do you get a you know, anything from me? She said, you know, two [00:09:05] emails a week come in for that. And she gets a whole salary for that. And then, you know, the doctors in [00:09:10] the US, they can have a great life if they want to. Here it’s more difficult, [00:09:15] I think, for a doctor. And on balance, I keep on saying maybe I’m doing the wrong thing here. I keep on telling [00:09:20] like, you know, friends, children when they say medicine, I said, don’t do it. Do [00:09:25] dentistry.

Bizhan Shokouhi: I agree.

Payman Langroudi: I.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Agree. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So, so okay, let’s get on to work life balance then. [00:09:30] Um, because to me, from the outside, it does look like you’re full on all in [00:09:35] on work. I’m wrong about that, am I?

Bizhan Shokouhi: It couldn’t be anything further from [00:09:40] the truth.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. Really interesting. Like some weeks I feel like [00:09:45] I’m not working enough, like, but but that’s what I mean. I really consciously try [00:09:50] and balance it, right? You know, with the two young boys and I, [00:09:55] you know how I said I was very conscious, I don’t want just work taking [00:10:00] over everything. And the more you do stuff, the more you realise how it can suck you in. [00:10:05] Yeah. And once you get to a certain kind of level of doing stuff, it’s hard to kind of then back out. Yeah. [00:10:10] So I’m always very kind of kind of up and down in terms of commitments and [00:10:15] whatever I do. But um, yeah, and look, it’s not like I [00:10:20] don’t feel like that balance is there. And that’s one thing I, I think no one has quite a balance. [00:10:25] It’s, it’s, it’s always a. Struggle to get that [00:10:30] balance. Basically, you have to kind of constantly gauge where you are, how much more you want to do. Um, [00:10:35] and yeah, kind of work, work your way around it without trying to commit too much. But at the same time, [00:10:40] obviously you want to work to your full potential, right? But, but yeah, you know, I want to be there for my kids. I want to be there for [00:10:45] my family. And like, there was a funny quote. I read that by [00:10:50] the time your kids are 12, you would have spent [00:10:55] 75% of the time you ever spent with them. Have you heard this?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’ve heard it and I’m living it. I’m [00:11:00] living it right now. Yeah, because you’re right. My my son’s 19 [00:11:05] and you don’t see him much. He’s at university. If you if you [00:11:10] accumulate the total number of minutes you see him in a year. Yeah. It’s not much. It’s [00:11:15] not much at all. But it’s an interesting thing because, you know, I guess [00:11:20] you’re saying you didn’t get as much exposure to your parents as you wanted. [00:11:25]

Bizhan Shokouhi: Um, I never actually thought about that. Like everything I’m saying isn’t [00:11:30] as a result of, or at least consciously anyway, of kind of what family was like when I was younger. [00:11:35] Um, yeah, my dad used to work more, I guess my mum was naturally around more, especially [00:11:40] when we came to the UK. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, So I remember, you know, [00:11:45] this whole question of should you have a nanny or not? Yeah, yeah. In Iran, it was very normal.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So I [00:11:50] had one nanny. My brother had another nanny. And and by the way, I loved that woman. Love [00:11:55] that woman, you know. But there was never any question about who was my mum [00:12:00] and I was my nanny. Yeah. So, you know, this this idea of. I want to bring up my [00:12:05] own kids. You know, it’s sometimes I’m not sure. At the same time, I’ve [00:12:10] got friends who’ve put all their kids into boarding school. Mhm. And you think, what time [00:12:15] is so short? Why would you shorten it even more by doing that? Yeah. But then they say things like, [00:12:20] um, the school takes care of all the crap, and then you end up having just [00:12:25] quality time with your kids, which is very.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Very limited time. Right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, [00:12:30] I wouldn’t do it myself. I wouldn’t do it especially I went to school where there was boarding and a lot of them had a terrible time.

Bizhan Shokouhi: But [00:12:35] you didn’t board yourself.

Payman Langroudi: I didn’t myself, I mean, maybe times were different back then, but still still. Um, [00:12:40] yeah. So that question of, you know, homework or sports [00:12:45] and all that is taken care of by the school. And then, you know, these days, boarding school is convertible. [00:12:50] It’s like you can opt not to board for three weeks if you want. Really? Yeah. Actually, [00:12:55] they actually love it, right? Because they don’t have to feed you and house you for that [00:13:00] period. Yeah, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t do it myself.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, this sounds unfair [00:13:05] sometimes, but it’s just like, why have kids if you’re going to just send them to.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Right. [00:13:10]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, listen, man, there’s different ways of living.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Oh, sure. That’s what I’m saying. It’s different [00:13:15] for everyone. But I don’t know, for us, we had kids because we wanted to spend that time with them and see them grow up [00:13:20] and whatever. Um, yeah. So and that’s why I’m saying in terms of work, I didn’t [00:13:25] want to be the one that’s just five, six days a week working and.

Payman Langroudi: And so both of you are oral surgeons. Both of you [00:13:30] have the same one day off during the week. Is that right?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. Yeah. So Linda. That’s good. So [00:13:35] she’s, uh, she works slightly less than me, especially since our second child. But hopefully once he starts going to [00:13:40] school, she’s going to pick up a bit more. Um, but yeah, basically at the moment it’s fairly balanced. I [00:13:45] do a little bit more work. She does a little bit more, uh, with the kids, but it’s always one of us with [00:13:50] him at home, which works out.

Payman Langroudi: No nanny.

Bizhan Shokouhi: No nanny. Yeah, we’ve thought [00:13:55] about it, but then I don’t know one. Logistically, trying to rely [00:14:00] on someone always is difficult. You know, we’ve had so many friends that the nanny [00:14:05] will just quit tomorrow and then you’re stuck. Um, but also, again, it comes down to [00:14:10] no one’s gonna love your child as much as you do. And we just wanted to be there for them. So it just didn’t [00:14:15] for us. We’re very lucky, especially with our jobs, that we can be flexible enough that we’re just always there for them. So [00:14:20] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, maybe one of the best things about the job that you can.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You can [00:14:25] be flexible.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Particularly as a, as a specialist. I mean, we’re so blessed that we can kind of [00:14:30] pick and choose the days and times we work. So that’s yeah, that’s been amazing.

Payman Langroudi: All right. I [00:14:35] want to get into a few things. I want to get into Implantology and the way [00:14:40] your your implantology journey yourself, how you became you. I [00:14:45] also want to get into. Am I right in thinking you’ve worked in quite a lot of practices or [00:14:50] not fair few.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I want to get into lessons, good and [00:14:55] bad, that you’ve learned from working in these different places. Yeah. So where should we start? [00:15:00] Should we start with Implantology?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah, sure. Um.

Payman Langroudi: What was your journey? So how did you [00:15:05] get into implants and how did you get good at implants?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah, I think, I don’t know if I mentioned I, [00:15:10] I didn’t, I think I said I didn’t, I didn’t know if I want to be an oral surgeon. Implants were one of those things that [00:15:15] I didn’t think I wanted to do at all. It’s crazy to think about it now. Like I remember very specifically, [00:15:20] we had an implant guy in our practice, um, and he used to go shadow him and stuff. And I used to think, oh my God, like, who [00:15:25] would ever want to do this? But obviously things changed. Um, and [00:15:30] this is one of the biggest advice I give to people at a young stage is [00:15:35] don’t going to.

Payman Langroudi: Rule Anything.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Else? Exactly. You don’t know what you’re going [00:15:40] to like and not like. So just kind of expose yourself to everything and slowly you develop [00:15:45] what you like and you can see things. And yeah, so especially [00:15:50] undergrad students, you know, fourth years and fifth years, they all tell me I want to be an orthodontist. I want to be this like, [00:15:55] there’s no way, you know, at that point, I think anyway, so, um, [00:16:00] yeah, so, you know, I was, I said I was doing a lot of restorative stuff, just [00:16:05] general practice. Um, but then I was doing oral surgery and then I was exposed to [00:16:10] implants a bit more. So then I was able to kind of place a few here and there. Uh, and [00:16:15] then yeah, as my oral surgery kind of interest developed, I realised I don’t want to just do oral surgery [00:16:20] because the reality is, especially in practice, oral surgery is a bit limited. I mean, the biggest thing is wisdom [00:16:25] teeth, right? If we’re gonna be honest about it.

Payman Langroudi: The old apicectomy.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Exactly. I mean, we do cysts in exactly, but most [00:16:30] of its teeth, right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: And that just got a bit boring after a while. And. [00:16:35] Yeah, so you’re just going to look for the next thing. And then implants was the next natural thing. So [00:16:40] then I did an MSc, the same place I teach in Bristol. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [00:16:45]

Bizhan Shokouhi: And that was yeah, that kind of just led full time. No. So that’s part time again.

Payman Langroudi: Part time. [00:16:50] Yeah. So how long is that.

Bizhan Shokouhi: So three years. Um, yeah. Again, spread out throughout the year. [00:16:55] There’s academic days. There’s teaching days with patients. And yeah, the unique, really nice thing about that was that [00:17:00] how I’m saying I go unsupervised. So there are practical days was [00:17:05] in a dental practice in bath. It’s called the dental implant clinic. Yeah. And [00:17:10] it’s a it’s a private practice. It’s like a normal practice, but it’s joined with the Bristol course. [00:17:15] So it’s very practical. So in terms of how things are run and how to see patients and so on. So [00:17:20] that was amazing. And then when I finished that you realise that it’s only [00:17:25] the start.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So how many implants did you put in in that in that three years.

Bizhan Shokouhi: On [00:17:30] the course. It’s not much. So the course and this is this is a big thing people ask about. Um, [00:17:35] so on the course you do one per year or one case per year. Okay. That [00:17:40] one case may have more than one implant, but, but that’s the point. Like you can do ten [00:17:45] implants or 20 implants, 50 implants, but not know the process properly and not kind of know [00:17:50] the basics properly. Yeah. But we make sure that that one case is done properly. So [00:17:55] you know everything how to do it properly. And of course some people then need the practice. [00:18:00] So then that becomes a bit of a challenge sometimes to kind of setting them up in practice. So then there [00:18:05] are other courses that, you know, you hear about the courses, you go to Brazil or whatever, and you do kind of 15 [00:18:10] plants in a weekend. Yeah. That can’t be kind of a starting point. Maybe if you really [00:18:15] want to build your confidence, fine. But I think as a foundation course, I [00:18:20] think you just need to know the basics properly. And that’s what we try and do. And for me, that [00:18:25] was great because I had the surgical skills, but then I just want I needed [00:18:30] the, yeah, the basics, the foundation to kind of understanding of what implants are about, [00:18:35] both the surgery side and the restorative side. And that’s another big thing.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah. [00:18:40] Do you reckon your knowledge of restorative helped a lot right.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. [00:18:45] Big time. Big time even to this day. Yeah. Because one of the biggest [00:18:50] things I see my oral surgery colleagues struggle with is just [00:18:55] the fact that they don’t have as much restorative background so they can do the implant side. [00:19:00] But then when it comes to restoring it, it’s not so easy. And you got to remember that even [00:19:05] just doing the implant is prosthetically driven, right? So if you don’t have an understanding [00:19:10] of that, then it becomes trickier. Yeah. Like in the olden days, you would just put the implant [00:19:15] wherever the bone is. You know, we clearly know that’s not the case anymore. So. Yeah. Yeah for sure.

Payman Langroudi: So then what [00:19:20] you did, you did the MSC. What else did you do next?

Bizhan Shokouhi: So, um, a lot of [00:19:25] kind of cases with mentors. And that’s the biggest thing that kind of helps you kind of progress. [00:19:30]

Payman Langroudi: How did you find a mentor?

Bizhan Shokouhi: It’s difficult. I mean, I was lucky that [00:19:35] in the hospital I work, we had some amazing guys that could help us in [00:19:40] practice. But, you know, I knew them through guys. Um, and yeah, through the course, there were obviously the [00:19:45] tutors could help you mentors and stuff as well. Yeah. I mean, it was word [00:19:50] of mouth.

Payman Langroudi: So then, okay, you’ve done the three big cases. [00:19:55] You’ve got a mentor. How do you get into the sort of getting patients [00:20:00] to do more?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: This is how does that work?

Bizhan Shokouhi: And this is one of the most difficult [00:20:05] things. So it’s easy ish to kind [00:20:10] of know what to do. But then to put it into practice, I think is what you’re saying. Yeah. Um, and yeah, sometimes [00:20:15] you just have to kind of step out of your comfort zone and just kind of go for it. Obviously while you’re staying [00:20:20] safe. But, but yeah, that’s why I’m saying this course, for example, where you see how things are run in [00:20:25] a practice helps you put it into practice easier. Um, just [00:20:30] from kind of the assessment, what you do, you know, how [00:20:35] do you talk to the patient about it? How what things do you check? And then what do you do? Now the at the end of the appointment, [00:20:40] how do you then lead on to the next appointment? All of these little practical things, not a lot of people teach you. Mhm. [00:20:45] Um, and yeah, a lot of it you learn by yourself, but a lot of it mentors, again, they [00:20:50] kind of you see how they do it and you kind of copy them and then you tailor it to your own style. [00:20:55]

Payman Langroudi: So look, now you’re teaching that same course and [00:21:00] what are you bringing to it? I mean, you’re obviously a very, very talented communicator. [00:21:05] What do you see are the main hurdles when someone’s in an [00:21:10] MSc, when someone’s just starting out on Implantology? What what do most people not [00:21:15] understand about that journey?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Biggest one. Communication.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [00:21:20]

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Patient communication.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. Yeah. When you hear about this in every field. Right.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:21:25] yeah, I wasn’t expecting you to say that. Yeah. No, it’s.

Bizhan Shokouhi: I think it becomes even more important [00:21:30] in big things.

Payman Langroudi: Important things you need to talk. [00:21:35]

Bizhan Shokouhi: Trying to trying to explain something big in a simple term.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: You know, you don’t how you [00:21:40] word things don’t make it sound scary and you don’t. And it’s not just about putting the patient off, but [00:21:45] when you can’t explain something in an easy to understand way, one, [00:21:50] they’re not gonna understand the whole process. The consent just breaks down.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. [00:21:55]

Bizhan Shokouhi: But then yeah, it can put them off as well. Right. So you know, the words you use how you word [00:22:00] things.

Payman Langroudi: Give me examples.

Bizhan Shokouhi: I mean, the most obvious one is like just [00:22:05] describing what an implant is. You know, some people say, oh, it’s a titanium screw. You. Drill it into the bone, you know, don’t [00:22:10] talk like that. Right. It’s I mean, it’s cliche, but, you know, say [00:22:15] it in simple terms that, yeah, it’s the best replacement we’ve got for a tooth. It’s [00:22:20] a little post that goes inside. Um, you know, you, the patient doesn’t need to [00:22:25] know Detailed to that point. They want to know what what the end result [00:22:30] is, how you get there. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Um, yeah. And this is one of those things [00:22:35] that it’s hard to teach. I’ll say, especially if you’re not there with them every [00:22:40] day. Uh, but it’s so important because [00:22:45] again, you can be the most talented clinician. And I mean, I’ll say this [00:22:50] from learning this myself, but unless you’re a good [00:22:55] communicator, unless you can kind of also build rapport on things, then there’s no point because it’s [00:23:00] just especially in private practice, because you got to remember patients when they in [00:23:05] private practice, the first appointment, they’re not really there for the implant. They’re there to kind of size [00:23:10] you up. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah, like communication [00:23:15] is one of the biggest things I try and always teach.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so interesting. Yeah. I think one of the mistakes [00:23:20] we make is to be an implantologist. You need a degree of an engineer’s brain, [00:23:25] right? One of the mistakes we make, particularly I see it with young dentists, is they download [00:23:30] directly what’s in their head into the patient. And this is what you’re saying that it [00:23:35] needs to be a patient filter. Yeah. You know.

Bizhan Shokouhi: You need to tell them enough, right. [00:23:40]

Payman Langroudi: Enough for consent. Exactly enough for consent. But the patient doesn’t need to know everything [00:23:45] in your head. Yeah. And the other mistake I see people making is they say, oh, these are the seven choices. [00:23:50] Yeah. And even if you’re going to give, I think seven is ridiculous. But let’s say three choices. Yeah. [00:23:55] There needs to follow on from that. And my recommendation is choice B, you know. Yeah. [00:24:00]

Bizhan Shokouhi: When you start, you start with your top choice. You don’t say yeah, yeah. You [00:24:05] know, the choice is leave a monitor denture. You start with, you know, and if this is if if [00:24:10] it’s actually true. Right. You say, look, the implant’s your best interest in this case, but [00:24:15] these are the other options. You know, then you can talk about that. But but yeah, for sure. You know, just [00:24:20] listing stuff is pointless, right? Because how’s the patient going to know what to do. Right. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. [00:24:25] And the other thing is, you know, you say you don’t want to put people off. I think sometimes it’s reassuring [00:24:30] from the patient perspective to point out everything [00:24:35] that could go wrong. I mean, of course, everything. But but as a young clinician, a lot of times we think [00:24:40] we’re putting the guy off. And I don’t want to scare him. But as from the patient perspective, [00:24:45] I don’t know when was the last time anyone, you know was patient, like someone you really care about was a patient when [00:24:50] when the the surgeon says this could go wrong. [00:24:55] That’s reassuring in that he knows what could go wrong. Yeah. [00:25:00]

Bizhan Shokouhi: And you’re honest enough to tell them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I’ve been in a in a consultation with my [00:25:05] dad, with a surgeon once. And the guy kind of promised the earth man, he really overdid [00:25:10] it. And I remember thinking, really, man, like, is that going to happen? He was like, you know, he couldn’t walk [00:25:15] 20m. And the guy said, yeah, after this operation, you can climb stairs. And all of that. [00:25:20] And it put me off a little bit. And that may be Maybe because I’m from the medical background, but [00:25:25] he oversold it, you know? And my dad never complained.

Bizhan Shokouhi: So everything I’m [00:25:30] saying about trying to communicate things in a nice way, I never, [00:25:35] um, overpromise and I’m very honest about [00:25:40] what implants are and what they can do and what they can’t do. So, you know, I always, always have a little chat about them. And look, implants [00:25:45] are not permanent. Don’t expect them to last your whole lifetime. And I’ll go into kind [00:25:50] of the problems with implants equally as much as the benefits as well. Because, [00:25:55] uh, yeah, like you said, they appreciate knowing that and I think they trust you more. And [00:26:00] obviously it’s the decent thing to do, you know. Um, but at the same time, you’re not [00:26:05] putting them off, you’re just being honest about it. So there’s just going to be a balance about being [00:26:10] able to communicate those things properly.

Payman Langroudi: So what else? I mean outside of communication, what else [00:26:15] do. What’s the common myths that need dispelling for someone who’s going to go into implant [00:26:20] training?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Common myths. Um, I mean, the biggest.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Other thing I [00:26:25] say is. So there’s something I always sit down and talk to people about when they say I want to do implants. [00:26:30] So I first I ask them why. What is it about implants that kind of attracts [00:26:35] you find attractive? Is it the surgery side of it? Is it the money? Um, [00:26:40] and then that leads me on to kind of talking to them about how much there is [00:26:45] to do with implants is huge. Like even to [00:26:50] this day, I’m not done learning. I don’t think I’ll ever be done learning. You know, it’s one of those fields that the more you [00:26:55] learn, the more you realise, oh my God, there’s so much more to learn. Right. It’s like undergrads, you know, fifth year you finish, you realise, [00:27:00] you know. Yeah. Same with implants. So, um, I always [00:27:05] tell them, look, are you happy to be committed to this for the rest of your career? Basically, are you going to [00:27:10] be kind of going conferences, courses, reading journals? Because if you’re not, it’s not [00:27:15] the right thing for you. All right. Um, yeah. So how much goes into [00:27:20] it, I think is important.

Payman Langroudi: It tends to be one of those all or nothing kind of areas, isn’t it?

Bizhan Shokouhi: This [00:27:25] is what I mean. And it can’t be.

Payman Langroudi: One of those.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Things that you’re doing like a case here and there [00:27:30] in between your patients, right? You’re either that guy that does the implants or [00:27:35] just don’t bother. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. The other thing that people don’t appreciate, I guess, is you [00:27:40] can’t have a 9:00 implant patient and the night before be [00:27:45] drinking till 1 a.m. like, you know, you can’t. Yeah. You can be that dentist. You [00:27:50] can’t. Let’s face it. Yeah. You can, you can, you can, you can. It depends what it is. Right. It’s [00:27:55] possible. Yeah. I could be out till 2 a.m. going the next day. Do a couple of exams, [00:28:00] a couple of fillings. It’s possible as an implantologist. Yeah. It is not possible. Yeah. It’s [00:28:05] impossible.

Bizhan Shokouhi: You’re not going to be a good implantologist.

Payman Langroudi: But. No. But the the situations [00:28:10] you can get yourself into. Yeah. A bit different from an Mo. Right. Yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: I [00:28:15] think surgery as a whole, it’s quiet. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so and by the way, you could say that about some [00:28:20] pilot or something, but but, you know, things become ordinary, you know, things that start out being difficult [00:28:25] end up being ordinary to you. But it’s something to appreciate that if you are an implantologist you doing implants [00:28:30] every day, your other life, your home life is affected by [00:28:35] that in the same way as your surgeon dad, it’s whole, complete life was affected by being a surgeon. [00:28:40] Yeah, yeah. You’re a surgeon now. Yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: It’s different. Yeah for sure. And that’s, that’s [00:28:45] another thing kind of in terms of the work life balance, like there’s [00:28:50] definitely kind of evenings that I’m kind of more stressed and thinking about my work more than I [00:28:55] want to.

Payman Langroudi: Write.

Bizhan Shokouhi: But that just comes along with the job, you know, accept that.

Payman Langroudi: And then what about [00:29:00] when a patient comes in? You’ve never met them before. After you’ve gotten [00:29:05] the whole rapport, you’ve explained everything they leave. How much sort of thinking time do you do before [00:29:10] the actual treatment plan goes out to that patient?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Well, I mean, when I say loads, it depends on the case, [00:29:15] but it can be loads. So I mean, if it’s a very routine straightforward case. Yeah. Not much. Nothing basically. [00:29:20] But yeah, other other things other cases would need. Yeah. Lots [00:29:25] of planning. Um, and lots of lots more engagement with [00:29:30] the patient. So for big cases, you never go from one appointment from the initial appointment [00:29:35] to the surgery, right. So you’d get them back, you’d go through more stuff. You’re [00:29:40] going to show them wax up, you try things in. Uh, yeah, it can be. And that’s why you have [00:29:45] to be able to kind of plan things and kind of quote for things properly. But [00:29:50] also you don’t want to promise things too early. So [00:29:55] there are cases that I wouldn’t have decided that I’m even going to treat the patient until [00:30:00] I’ve seen them 2 or 3 times.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. Because in what sized up [00:30:05] their commitment to it.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, there are some surgeries that realistically [00:30:10] is going to take 1 or 2 years to finish if you’re going to do it properly. Yeah. And some people don’t [00:30:15] just don’t want that, Which is fair enough. And sometimes the patient doesn’t know that and you don’t know [00:30:20] that on the first appointment. So you kind of tell them the general gist of it, but then you get them back. [00:30:25] They’ve had to think about it. You go through things a bit more detail. Um, [00:30:30] yeah. Like you want to be sure that you don’t start something that either yourself or your patient [00:30:35] is going to regret later.

Payman Langroudi: And so, you know, you know, how in, in orthopaedics, [00:30:40] you cut it down into yet another sort of subspecialty of like hand [00:30:45] or wrist or whatever it is. Which implantologists are you? Like? I was talking to Andrew, [00:30:50] Andrew Dawood about this. He was saying so at the very end of it, what’s what is [00:30:55] your point on the narrative? And he said something about, um, 3D [00:31:00] thinking means that you end up keeping operations much simpler. Yeah. And, [00:31:05] and he was saying often you go, you go some implantologist will say graft [00:31:10] here and extra implants there. And, and he was saying that somehow that can be lazy [00:31:15] thinking as well, and making things a lot harder for the patient by overcomplicating things. [00:31:20] So which which implantologists are you having? If you reflect on what’s [00:31:25] your contribution to the implant narrative?

Bizhan Shokouhi: It’s a difficult question. [00:31:30] Um.

Payman Langroudi: Like what’s the bit of it that [00:31:35] you think you’ve sort of changed compared to what you were taught?

Bizhan Shokouhi: I [00:31:40] think just being from a background of surgery, [00:31:45] being able to kind of do the perio and pro side of [00:31:50] things.

Payman Langroudi: Properly.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Properly. Yeah. Particularly perio. I mean, some people I’ve [00:31:55] been honoured, people have called me an honorary periodontist when they’ve seen someone [00:32:00] work. Yeah. Which yeah. I mean, I really appreciate it because I do put a lot of effort into that.

Payman Langroudi: Are [00:32:05] you talking sort of the aesthetic side, the anterior or what are you talking about? Aesthetics.

Bizhan Shokouhi: This is [00:32:10] one of the biggest things. I guess there’s a misconception about implants as well. And we’re [00:32:15] understanding about this more and more is that soft tissues are equally as important, [00:32:20] sometimes more important than the bone.

Payman Langroudi: In terms of how long it’s going to last.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Exactly, and how well [00:32:25] the whole thing is going to look and work at the end of it. So it’s not even just about. So even a molar, if you if you don’t think [00:32:30] about the tissues too much, you’re not going to get a good result. It’s not going to last as long. So [00:32:35] being able to identify that and know what to do about it.

Payman Langroudi: So, you know, give me an example.

Bizhan Shokouhi: I [00:32:40] mean, the obvious one is just how much keratinised tissue you’ve got and how [00:32:45] the quality of it was thick or thin. Is it attached and unattached. Um, and this is stuff they don’t [00:32:50] teach you in oral surgery, right? Uh, but yeah, like even a single molar, [00:32:55] there might be tons of bone where the tissues just rubbish. So that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Then [00:33:00] you treat both. And yeah, this is one of the things that I’ve kind of really learned along [00:33:05] the years and I encourage everyone to really understand this point. It’s not just about bone.

Payman Langroudi: So when [00:33:10] you say you treat both what you build it, build it out more.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Like you do. Connective tissue graft of some sort. [00:33:15] Yeah. Along with the surgery. Yeah. But. And you see this where the [00:33:20] implants done. And it looks beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: On the X-ray.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. Yeah. But even in the mouth, [00:33:25] it’s in the right place. Okay. But then the tissue’s all wrong. Right. It’s really kind of depressed, [00:33:30] and the, um, it’s too thin. And then when you put the crown on the connect, [00:33:35] the keratinised tissue is not good enough around it. Mhm. That that needs addressing. [00:33:40] And we know this very, very well documented. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:33:45] see.

Bizhan Shokouhi: And in other terms you’re asking about [00:33:50] kind of what things am I interested in. So grafting, bone [00:33:55] grafting stuff. But, uh, the digital side of things, that’s a big one that’s coming in now. [00:34:00] I mean, it’s been around for a while, but digital planning and then kind of [00:34:05] guided surgery as well. I think that’s, that’s, that’s huge at the moment.

Payman Langroudi: Do you [00:34:10] believe in people first learning Non-guided?

Bizhan Shokouhi: No. Absolutely [00:34:15] not.

Payman Langroudi: Go straight into guided.

Bizhan Shokouhi: No no.

Payman Langroudi: No. The opposite.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. The opposite. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Learn it [00:34:20] free hand.

Bizhan Shokouhi: First you have to you have to as in it’s not even an option. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Really really.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Really. Yeah. So if anyone [00:34:25] tells you otherwise it’s not true. Um we have a saying if you can’t do [00:34:30] it freehand, you shouldn’t be doing it guided. Oh just because. You [00:34:35] need to understand the, the basics. [00:34:40] You know, we’re always going to come back to this. You need to understand the basics first.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: And there’s [00:34:45] going to be some cases that you can’t use a guide properly or halfway. You realise you have to kind [00:34:50] of make some adjustments. And if you if all you know is guided, you [00:34:55] will get stuck. And I’ve seen it, it’s not the right way to go.

Payman Langroudi: It’s, it’s like, you know, you know, the plane [00:35:00] lands itself, but the pilot still knows, needs to know how to land it in a stormy, in [00:35:05] a stormy treatment. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: It’s a tool, right. It’s a tool. That’s how I would say it. [00:35:10]

Payman Langroudi: Okay, so the technology now what’s what’s moved on? What’s the latest thing that [00:35:15] you it’s interesting you in terms of.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. So the degree of planning you can do now. [00:35:20] Preoperatively.

Payman Langroudi: So is it a software thing?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah, yeah. [00:35:25] Like you can plan everything on a software to the.

Payman Langroudi: The nth degree.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. And you [00:35:30] know, even, even where not just the implant goes where the abutment goes, which abutment, [00:35:35] the height of the abutment, the angle of the abutment, how they relate to each other. Yeah. [00:35:40]

Payman Langroudi: What’s that software called?

Bizhan Shokouhi: I mean, there’s several, there’s. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:35:45] quite a regular thing.

Bizhan Shokouhi: It’s. Yeah. It’s a big thing now. Yeah. Yeah. And then how AI is being kind [00:35:50] of incorporated into all of this. So there’s, you know, if we’re talking about particular softwares, [00:35:55] there’s a particular thing called smile cloud, which is a really cool AI [00:36:00] kind of cloud based database of, I [00:36:05] don’t know how many thousands of smiles and kind of anatomies of teeth they’ve got, and [00:36:10] it’ll wax up things exactly how it’s most functionally and aesthetically [00:36:15] pleasing, really. And then you base all the plan on that. You can make fine adjustments. Um, [00:36:20] it even does kind of little video simulations and stuff. So you’ll put one picture in and it kind of makes [00:36:25] a video out of it for the patient to see the potential result.

Payman Langroudi: So interesting. Yeah. [00:36:30] But what what? Surely soon treatment planning is [00:36:35] going to be not completely done by AI, but it’s happening. It’s already happening. [00:36:40]

Bizhan Shokouhi: There’s things so there’s I think most of them are still in beta versions.

Payman Langroudi: But.

Bizhan Shokouhi: There [00:36:45] are ones. It’s just one click. And the software will do all the planning.

Payman Langroudi: It will give you one idea of yeah. [00:36:50]

Bizhan Shokouhi: And the next natural thing from that which is already happened is robots placing the implants. [00:36:55] Have you seen.

Payman Langroudi: This? I’ve seen that. Yeah, I’ve seen that. How long do you think it’s going to be before a robot does it all? Uh, [00:37:00] dentistry. I mean.

Bizhan Shokouhi: I mean, the rate things are advancing, it’s always [00:37:05] surprises you, but I don’t think it’s ever going to be hands [00:37:10] off in our lifetime, really, in terms of I think we’re still going [00:37:15] to rely on a human to operate it and to kind of okay IT regulations and kind of. [00:37:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And trust to that extent. To that extent. Yeah. So, you know about the driverless cars.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. [00:37:25]

Payman Langroudi: There’s still a driver, you know, he’s driving 50, 60 cars at a time. Exactly. Once [00:37:30] the thing hits the problem, it reports back to base. But how long will it be before [00:37:35] you visit the dentist? And okay, it could be a human.

Bizhan Shokouhi: In a pod, or.

Payman Langroudi: It could be a human. They’re [00:37:40] just not a dentist. You know, like, yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: The, the other thing I think is more relevant [00:37:45] and is different from just driverless cars is that human connection.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Um, [00:37:50] and it may not be important to every patient, but I.

Payman Langroudi: Think there could be a human there.

Bizhan Shokouhi: In [00:37:55] terms of.

Payman Langroudi: The TCO like some. [00:38:00]

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. That, that then would just be you using it as a tool, right. Which we already are. But if you’re talking about [00:38:05] in terms of you just turn up somewhere and you sit somewhere and the robot just does.

Payman Langroudi: Everything.

Bizhan Shokouhi: That I’m saying, [00:38:10] I can’t see that happening anytime soon.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, like, look, there are certain things that this whole AI robotics conversation, [00:38:15] right? There are certain things that won’t ever change about being a person. Yeah, yeah. Like, [00:38:20] uh, we will have a meal together or, you know, break bread. [00:38:25] Yeah. If you want to get poetic about it. But at the same [00:38:30] time, the, you know, I’m starting to kind of think of my Gemini [00:38:35] as a bit of a buddy. It started to happen. Yeah. I don’t know how much use [00:38:40] Claude or whatever. Once you once it knows you and stuff.

Bizhan Shokouhi: No.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. And it’s [00:38:45] a very interesting question, right. Of what is it that gives something, right. Yeah. [00:38:50] You know, is.

Bizhan Shokouhi: It what makes us human? Right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And or for instance, let’s say they come up with a way of [00:38:55] downloading your brain into a robot. Yeah, yeah. And [00:39:00] then unfortunately, you pass away. Now, now we’ve got this robot who is exactly you. [00:39:05] Do you not count anymore? Now, you know, it comes down to that [00:39:10] spiritual debate.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Have you have you have you watched Westworld?

Payman Langroudi: I [00:39:15] haven’t, I have ever heard.

Bizhan Shokouhi: It’s exactly.

Payman Langroudi: What I’ve heard. Oh, really? Is that what it is?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Partly.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, shit.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Um, [00:39:20] I love all this. All this sci fi stuff, I love it. Blade runner is another one. Yeah. So [00:39:25] that’s kind of to do with this.

Payman Langroudi: Futurism is an interesting thing, isn’t it? Like trying to think where the world will be. [00:39:30] Yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Um, and it’s interesting how there comes [00:39:35] times that what was once science fiction is just reality, right? And we’re kind of crossing that [00:39:40] at the moment.

Payman Langroudi: Star Trek and all that. The computer.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I do remember there was a show, it was called. [00:39:45] I can’t remember the name. It was like, it was like the [00:39:50] every episode, the guy would wake up in someone’s life and his whole mission was to change [00:39:55] something. And, and he had this, this sidekick and the sidekick [00:40:00] used to have this little unit and he’d go and he’d go, yeah, she, you know, she, she had [00:40:05] a car crash. And if it wasn’t for that car crash, her mum would have done this and become the president of United States. She had [00:40:10] changed that. I remember thinking, there is no way this will ever happen. Yeah. And I thought, even if you [00:40:15] manage time travel and all that, that little device the guy’s got that knows everything, that’ll never [00:40:20] happen. There’s nothing quite like it’s happened like ten years after I saw that [00:40:25] show. It happened. Right?

Bizhan Shokouhi: But there are scary things about it as well. Right. You’ve [00:40:30] got a Neuralink, obviously, right?

Payman Langroudi: Neuralink.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Neuralink.

Payman Langroudi: Neuralink. Yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. And like, how [00:40:35] do you feel about that?

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s inevitable I think.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Would you do it. Would [00:40:40] you imply.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll tell you what they will do to make everyone do it.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. Make everyone do it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:40:45] Yeah. Because it’s a bit of a wet dream of, of, of some sort of, uh, billionaire [00:40:50] trillionaire people. Yeah. To do that. Yeah. The idea of I’ll put a chip in [00:40:55] this population. Yeah. And the population will kind of work for me. Yeah. By the way, [00:41:00] we’re already there with. I’m holding up my mobile for anyone. We’re already there. Yeah, [00:41:05] I saw my latest screen report. Scared the hell out of here. So we’re already there. The question [00:41:10] is inside you or not? Yeah, there will be. There will be some false flag. Yeah. Where everyone [00:41:15] who had the chip will live and everyone who didn’t have the chip will die. Yeah. [00:41:20] And at that point, yeah, your wife will trot your kids to the GP or actually probably the dentist [00:41:25] to have that chip inserted. Yeah. That’s how they’ll do it.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Scary thought right. [00:41:30] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: In the same it’s a bit like, if I don’t know, 20 years ago you held up [00:41:35] a mobile and said, would you carry one of these or you cannot exist in the world without one.

Bizhan Shokouhi: It’s become such [00:41:40] a norm now, right?

Payman Langroudi: It’ll be that there might be, you know, the best.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Or would it be more like, [00:41:45] you know, how AI right now people are saying you either keep up with it or you kind of. Yeah. Yeah. Like, is [00:41:50] it going to come to a point where people that have the chips in their heads, [00:41:55] they’re going to be so much more advanced that you feel like you need it to keep up.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:42:00]

Bizhan Shokouhi: But at the same time, are you are you willing to sell your humanity for it? Yeah, yeah. Well you are.

Payman Langroudi: No, [00:42:05] I don’t do it. I don’t do it happily. Yeah, but to get me to do it. Yeah. [00:42:10] Just make me q a lot. Yeah, yeah. Once. Once I have to queue a lot for everything. Forget [00:42:15] it man. Like it’s the worst thing in the world for me to queue. Yeah, yeah. You could say my liberty is worth the queue. [00:42:20] Yeah, but it would be something like that. Many things like that.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like [00:42:25] how to live in the world will be defined by which chip. The other thing is you’re going [00:42:30] to have to start paying like we’re all paying now, right? I’m paying as a company. We’re paying three, 400 a month [00:42:35] now for, for AI. Yeah, yeah. And it’s going it’s increasing quickly. Yeah. I think [00:42:40] as households, yeah. You’ll start having to pay everything subscription. Mr. Musk [00:42:45] to defend you. Yeah, yeah. Like your AI will have to defend against other AIS [00:42:50] that are gonna attack. And it’s very scary, man.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: Can see the most scary part of it is even [00:42:55] when you see interviews with the guy from anthropic and the guy from all of them are like, yeah, yeah, [00:43:00] you know, the world could end. They’ve got like, no one’s saying everything’s going to [00:43:05] be okay.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, the other one is people will lose their jobs. There’s no doubt [00:43:10] about that. Right. I had, I had, I had a guy, a corporate guy I was talking to, and I asked [00:43:15] him that question. So you’re having, are you having that conversation about job losses? And [00:43:20] he gave the cliche answer that people are giving now about no, no, no. The same people will do a lot [00:43:25] more work. Yeah, it’s possible, it is possible, but very possible. A lot of people are [00:43:30] going to lose their jobs, you know. And what is what is society going to be like when [00:43:35] that happens?

Bizhan Shokouhi: No one knows.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: No one.

Payman Langroudi: Knows. It’s the first time ever that we don’t know what the world’s going [00:43:40] to be like in three years time, you know? So on this journey that implants [00:43:45] we’ve kind of been through, now tell me about other oral surgery. Like, okay, [00:43:50] wisdom teeth. What else? What else isn’t oral surgery that you’re doing?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. So [00:43:55] typically oral surgery is done to alveolar, right. So anything to do with teeth and the bones around it. So we do um. [00:44:00]

Payman Langroudi: Are you doing, you know, like when, when there’s uh.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Like a. [00:44:05]

Payman Langroudi: Periodontist.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Only as part of my implant treatment. Mhm. Not, not just separately. Um, [00:44:10] and only, I mean, I’d say I know how to do [00:44:15] it from everything I’ve learned, but yeah, it doesn’t make sense to kind [00:44:20] of go into the perio as a thing separately. So yeah, no, I’ll just do the implant [00:44:25] plus the perio that’s involved with that. And then yeah, the oral surgery is kind of ectopic [00:44:30] teeth exposing bonds, cysts, sinus work, [00:44:35] anything to do with sinuses. Um, yeah, it tends to be that. And then obviously high risk cases to do with the nerve. [00:44:40] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the limit of your implantology. Like do you do zygoma. [00:44:45]

Bizhan Shokouhi: No. So at the moment no. And that’s one of those things. So I don’t do a lot of full [00:44:50] arch. First of all.

Payman Langroudi: Are you doing. Why is that.

Bizhan Shokouhi: So. I just [00:44:55] don’t get the cases, to be honest. Yeah. Like where where I work. I [00:45:00] need to really market for it. So the clientele that I get, they honestly, [00:45:05] they just don’t need that level of full arch that I’d be doing a lot of them. Mhm. Um, [00:45:10] and yeah, I just don’t feel like I need to market for it. I’m happy with all the kind of work I’m doing. So, you [00:45:15] know, I’ll happily do advanced grafting and whatever else is involved with it. But, but yeah, I don’t, [00:45:20] I don’t do a lot of full articles.

Payman Langroudi: Like always when you say advanced grafting, what does that mean? [00:45:25]

Bizhan Shokouhi: So, uh, just to give you an idea, like in terms of grafting, we have [00:45:30] generally speaking, horizontal bone graft or vertical bone graft. So horizontal is [00:45:35] known to be fairly not easy, but more routine and predictable, whereas vertical is a whole different story. [00:45:40] Um, you know, you get what I mean by vertical.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Of course. Uh, [00:45:45] so yeah, I’ll, I’ll do all of those cases basically. And any kind of soft [00:45:50] tissue reconstruction that goes along with that.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. And so grafting, where [00:45:55] do you take it from?

Bizhan Shokouhi: It varies on the technique, but almost always the gold standard [00:46:00] is you use at least some or even sometimes all autogenous. So just from the [00:46:05] patient. Yeah. And then you mix it usually with something else. Sometimes it’s you would have heard of cow bone xenografts, [00:46:10] but sometimes it’s human bone. So we call that allografts. Um, there’s [00:46:15] synthetic materials as well. But yeah, it depends on the technique. So there’s no kind of one technique for everything. [00:46:20] And it’s one of the other big things. You have to understand what works for where. And you need to understand the biology to be able [00:46:25] to kind of understand that.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me what like obviously it’s a big subject, but.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah, so. [00:46:30]

Payman Langroudi: How did you, how did you decide?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. So as a very kind of, I mean, [00:46:35] this is really dumbing it down.

Payman Langroudi: But that’s what I need. Yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: But there’s a, there’s kind [00:46:40] of a universal truth to it that let’s say. You’re [00:46:45] doing something within the bony envelope. So [00:46:50] it’s a just to explain that. So everyone has almost [00:46:55] a genetically determined limit to where your bone is.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. [00:47:00]

Bizhan Shokouhi: You know, our mandibles are shaped a certain way. And then any bone outside of that would consider that [00:47:05] outside of the genetic envelope. So if you graphed that [00:47:10] outside bit with just your own bone, the body’s natural reaction [00:47:15] is to kind of just put it back to where it was. So then you need to think of doing something else. And that something [00:47:20] else is usually mixing it with some xenograft. So xenografts the cow bone, the animal [00:47:25] bone is much more resistant to these kind of resorptions. It basically [00:47:30] never resorbs. It always stays where it is. So then it holds its structure, but [00:47:35] then it also has downsides, potentially, because it’s not depending on how much of the [00:47:40] xenograft, the animal bone you use, it’s not as much real bone like you want as much real [00:47:45] vital bone. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s one of the biggest things sometimes happens [00:47:50] that results in failures is just using a xenograft, for example, 100% [00:47:55] of just the powder. That just doesn’t work because it’s not going to turn into real bone. And then [00:48:00] people think, oh, why did that fail? It wasn’t because of the material, it was because of how you used it. Um, [00:48:05] so yeah, that genetic envelope is a big thing. So outside you would use [00:48:10] different materials. Inside you can use just Autogenous or allografts, which is a human bone as well. Yeah. [00:48:15]

Payman Langroudi: What were you like as a dental student at London Hospital?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. [00:48:20]

Payman Langroudi: Were you into it? Uh, you could have.

Bizhan Shokouhi: I was always quite studious, I [00:48:25] guess. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which years were you? What were you were you there?

Bizhan Shokouhi: What years were there? So I qualified 2008. [00:48:30] So 2003 to 2000. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And like when the first [00:48:35] time you saw Whitechapel, did you.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Oh.

Payman Langroudi: Was it on your interview day? It [00:48:40] must have been. Yeah. It must.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Have been.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So where were you, where were you growing up before at that [00:48:45] point?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Um well not that far actually, but the other side of the Hammersmith line, Edgware Road, basically. [00:48:50] Okay. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so as as a place to work and study and all that. [00:48:55] Did you come to love it? Because they do. People end up starting by, by going, what the hell is this? Yeah. [00:49:00] I mean, I couldn’t.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah, I wouldn’t say love.

Payman Langroudi: But, um.

Bizhan Shokouhi: It was all right. I mean, [00:49:05] you’re there to, to, to learn, right. It was. Yeah. And I think it’s changed a lot now. Right. It’s I haven’t [00:49:10] been back for.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s kind of cool now. It’s it’s got a cool edge to it.

Bizhan Shokouhi: This is before the new hospital. [00:49:15]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: I distinctly remember do you remember those really old brown dental chairs and wooden [00:49:20] tops? Yeah. I mean, that’s what we had.

Payman Langroudi: I didn’t get into the London hospital. [00:49:25] I that’s where I wanted to go. Okay. I ended up in Cardiff, but it didn’t quite hit the grades. But [00:49:30] um did you not consider leaving London?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yes. I mean, when I applied, I [00:49:35] got also into Bristol and Birmingham. I didn’t get into King’s [00:49:40] because they said I’m too young. So, so I was, yeah, [00:49:45] I was going to be 17 when I kind of was joining uni and they had they just had a rule that [00:49:50] you have to be 18, which is whatever. Um, so yeah, but um, also [00:49:55] gave me a place and yeah, like, I mean, it was, it was convenient, [00:50:00] right? It was just down the road, almost one tube and yeah. So no, I didn’t think of that going.

Payman Langroudi: So you lived at home. [00:50:05]

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You didn’t do that proper uni experience then. Yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: No. And honestly I don’t regret [00:50:10] it. I don’t feel like I missed out.

Payman Langroudi: No you definitely did.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Did.

Payman Langroudi: I. Yeah yeah yeah yeah [00:50:15] yeah. Like because you’re a child. You’re a child at that point. And [00:50:20] then when, when you go and live somewhere where you have to buy salt and pepper and [00:50:25] vacuum your own floor and, you know, stuff like that, it makes it turns out I did.

Bizhan Shokouhi: All that later for and [00:50:30] just, but.

Payman Langroudi: Took to it like a duck to water. Yeah. There’s [00:50:35] so much to it though.

Bizhan Shokouhi: I know.

Payman Langroudi: I know your own kids. Would you tell them to stay? You know, for instance, my [00:50:40] son did engineering. My son’s doing engineering.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Best school for engineering. Imperial [00:50:45] College. A good school, but it’s literally the building next door to his school. Yeah, and a [00:50:50] bunch of kids go from his school to Imperial College, and I just forbid it, I said. That [00:50:55] just can’t be. You’ve got to move a little bit. You’ve got to evolve a little bit. Right?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. No, I [00:51:00] totally get that. But, uh, yeah, maybe. Yeah, I don’t know, maybe [00:51:05] kind of my view on different things would have been different if I.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, by the way, I was that kid. Yeah. Because at [00:51:10] 17, you think you’d know it. All right. So I wanted to stay in London. Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, you’re in London, right? [00:51:15] Yeah. But it was the best thing ever. Leaving the best thing ever with with [00:51:20] my son. I really gave him that advice. And actually, he just came back after his first year. And I said [00:51:25] to him, what do you think? What do you think of the advice? And he said, yeah, you were right. I wanted [00:51:30] a year out as well. Did you did you ever consider that?

Bizhan Shokouhi: I did.

Payman Langroudi: But parents shut it [00:51:35] down.

Bizhan Shokouhi: No, honestly, my parents were very supportive of anything I wanted to do. Yeah, they would have. Oh. That’s nice. Yeah. [00:51:40] Like even just doing dentistry, it was never like between medicine or it. Was never that kind of conversation. [00:51:45] Um, yeah. Like, uh, the [00:51:50] living out thing. I’ve thought about this a lot, but I don’t know. It was again, [00:51:55] it was convenient. I saved up a lot of money and. Sure. And yeah, like one of the [00:52:00] other things is like, I’m very close to my family. So I never felt like, you know, some kids, they, they want to kind of just [00:52:05] go and explore and stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was, I don’t know, it was fine for me.

Payman Langroudi: If your kids [00:52:10] want to be dentists, would your advice be to go for it or not?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Honestly, [00:52:15] no.

Payman Langroudi: No, really. Go on.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Go on. That’s interesting.

Bizhan Shokouhi: And I’m saying [00:52:20] this from a position of being very happy as a dentist. Yeah, I love what I do, but when I think [00:52:25] about what I’ve done to get here and yeah, [00:52:30] I mean, it’s been tough, right? It’s a lot of work.

Payman Langroudi: It is.

Bizhan Shokouhi: And then [00:52:35] when you kind of think what kind of stresses you have in life and, [00:52:40] And kind of distil the kind of commitments you need to be [00:52:45] a dentist at this level. It just feels like there’s kind of maybe easier, less [00:52:50] stressful ways to make a living. Well, I don’t know. And everything’s changing so [00:52:55] much. So like in ten years, maybe there’ll be. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Look, the thing is, when you stop. I [00:53:00] stopped 15 years ago. When you stop, you realise what it is about it. That’s brilliant. Yeah. [00:53:05] And I’ve got friends who’ve. Who’ve actually someone coming in straight after you who was a dentist, [00:53:10] became a periodontist, became a barrister, [00:53:15] and then went back to become periodontist after that. Yeah. [00:53:20] And, and the question of, you know, let’s bring it down to like reductive. [00:53:25] Let’s talk about money. Yeah. If we’re talking just let’s talk about money. Only pound [00:53:30] per stress. Yeah. Do you know pound [00:53:35] per stress? It’s everything worthwhile is stressful.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. [00:53:40]

Payman Langroudi: It really.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Is. Yeah. Different kinds of stresses.

Payman Langroudi: Like you might think some guy sitting on a terminal [00:53:45] pushing a button to buy stock isn’t stress. He’s more stressed sometimes. Often when [00:53:50] he’s losing. Then when that implant’s going in the wrong direction. Yeah, yeah. So, [00:53:55] you know, you’re clever enough to have taken all of this into account. Yeah. And yet your conclusion [00:54:00] is.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Different kinds of stresses and different lifestyles, [00:54:05] right? So yeah, like one of the big things has become a thing [00:54:10] is working from home, right? Which we can’t.

Payman Langroudi: Do, can’t do. That’s the worst thing.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. Like when you see your friends [00:54:15] kind of just.

Payman Langroudi: That is the worst thing.

Bizhan Shokouhi: This is what I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Or working from Bali or whatever, you know? Yeah. [00:54:20] That it’s doable. I’ve got few people maybe. I hope they’re not listening. I’ve [00:54:25] got a few people who work here that they could say anything. They could say, I want to work from New Zealand.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah, [00:54:30] same. I’ve got friends. Like.

Payman Langroudi: No, they could say I’m talking about my employees. They could say I want to work from New [00:54:35] Zealand. And I would find a way because they’re that important to me, I would find a way to [00:54:40] make that happen.

Bizhan Shokouhi: We have no flexibility.

Payman Langroudi: There is no way we can do that. That’s true. That’s true. Especially [00:54:45] if you have the travel bug. You know, like, you know, a lot of people do these days, right?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:54:50] let’s, let’s move on to the darker part of the pod. We [00:54:55] like to talk about errors, clinical errors. What comes to mind if I say what, what’s a clinical [00:55:00] error that you’ve made that kind of stuck with you.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. Um. I [00:55:05] mean, I, I’ll give you an actual example in a second. Uh, [00:55:10] but I’ve been lucky. I’ve never had any big disasters or anything drastic. And, um, [00:55:15] one thing I always, because I’ve heard you say this in other podcasts as well, uh, [00:55:20] why are we calling it a dark side?

Payman Langroudi: Like, okay, the [00:55:25] lighter part.

Bizhan Shokouhi: It should just be more open about it, right?

Payman Langroudi: We should, we should.

Bizhan Shokouhi: But that’s why it just gives it quite [00:55:30] a negative, scary connotation. Do you know what I mean?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, you’re right. That’s the whole point of it is to get it out of there.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. [00:55:35] And honestly, one of the big things is we need to be talking about complications more.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I just, I just think. [00:55:40]

Bizhan Shokouhi: I get it. I just think it sounds cool. I totally get what you’re saying, but I hope you get what I’m saying.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely, [00:55:45] absolutely.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Um, yeah. So I’ve made lots of small mistakes. Like any, [00:55:50] any mistake you can think of, I’ve probably made along the years and, uh, like everyone [00:55:55] tells you that those really are the biggest things that teach you regardless of what courses to teach you, right? You don’t learn [00:56:00] unless you’ve done it yourself. But anyway, um, yeah, in terms of a particular case that always [00:56:05] kind of sticks in my head. So I had this patient, a really [00:56:10] lovely lady in her 80s. I’d taken some teeth out for her and a [00:56:15] big cyst as well. But then by this point she was edentulous. So then she needed teeth. And [00:56:20] we really got on by that point. And she trusted me with everything. And she, [00:56:25] I mean, naturally she asked, can I do it for her? And I had a look and [00:56:30] it was one of those really difficult denture cases. And by the way, she couldn’t, she didn’t want and she couldn’t afford [00:56:35] having big. Grafting, fixed teeth basically. So it was going to be dentures [00:56:40] plus or minus implant over dentures. Yeah. So [00:56:45] it was one of those kind of the upper was all flabby.

Bizhan Shokouhi: The lower was just no bone, you know, it was basically [00:56:50] resorbed to the floor of the mouth type situation. And I had a look and I said, look, I can do the implants, but [00:56:55] I’m not an expert at dentures. But I know a good guy, you know, prosthodontist [00:57:00] down the road. I’ll refer you to him. Um, and yeah, so I told her about that [00:57:05] and she looked up where he is. It was only for half an hour away for, for her it was like a big commute. [00:57:10] And she said, look, I really want you to do it. Please. You know, it’s one bus [00:57:15] to come here, I trust you. Can you just do it so you can probably tell what [00:57:20] this is going right. So I did it for her. And, and yeah, so initially [00:57:25] it was, you know, and I did everything by the book. So, you know, I know how to make dentures. I’ve done them [00:57:30] before as part of my training as well. So I did a whole steps, all the steps [00:57:35] you have to do. I even used green stick.

Payman Langroudi: Blast from the past.

Bizhan Shokouhi: All [00:57:40] the things. And yeah, the top denture was actually pretty good even with the flabby [00:57:45] ridge just by itself was good. The lower upper two implants in because that’s the gold standard you know, you have [00:57:50] if you’re.

Payman Langroudi: With the bar or.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. Or attachments.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Attachments separate. Yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: And [00:57:55] the implants were fine. So that that wasn’t difficult bit. And the denture initially was fine. [00:58:00] And you know, it clicked in. But then of course she kept [00:58:05] coming back. You know, it was in function. It’s a totally different story right. It kept kind of moving [00:58:10] rubbing and you know adjustment after adjustment, she [00:58:15] somehow broke the lower. This was a chrome base. She broke the acrylic. Um, [00:58:20] so I remade it for her. And I think last time I counted it, it was something like over [00:58:25] 20, almost 20 something visits. Wow. Over about 18 months.

Payman Langroudi: Adjustments, [00:58:30] adjustments.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Remakes. And I didn’t charge her for any of this, by the way. It’s um. And [00:58:35] yeah, look, they just came to a point. I said, look, I was gonna say Mrs. Jones, that’s not her name, but I said, Mrs. [00:58:40] Jones, I’ve done everything I can. I really need to send you to the Prosthodontist. [00:58:45] And, and yeah, that’s what I had to do. I mean, as kind of a bigger [00:58:50] defeat as it makes you feel like you kind of just have to kind of say, look, this is as far as I can do. [00:58:55] And I’m not saying this to say that she made me do it. It was my [00:59:00] responsibility. Basically, I against my better judgement, you know, I made that judgement [00:59:05] that it’s a difficult case. I should refer it, but I still kind of did it.

Payman Langroudi: Often. That’s when stuff [00:59:10] goes wrong, isn’t it? Against your better judgement? Yeah. When you’re doing someone a favour.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. And you [00:59:15] feel like it honestly wasn’t the time that I had to spend. It was the time I wasted [00:59:20] for her dragging her back so many times. And, and yeah, the most painful [00:59:25] thing is at the end, she still had to go to someone else and try and sort it out. Um, yeah. [00:59:30]

Payman Langroudi: But what was she left feeling. Did she feel like she’d been let [00:59:35] down?

Bizhan Shokouhi: I mean, I could see her, bless her. She’s really she she she she wasn’t a complainer. [00:59:40] Like she was one of those. Every time she would call up to come in, she’d be like, oh, I’m so sorry. I’m coming in again. I’d be like, oh, [00:59:45] you know, so I was so lucky with that, obviously. Right. So and that’s one of the other biggest things [00:59:50] you learn is you’re really at the mercy of the type of patients you have, right? [00:59:55] So if she was a different character.

Payman Langroudi: If your relationship was different.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah, it would have.

Payman Langroudi: Been [01:00:00] a whole different communication.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah, yeah. And that’s the other thing. I was very kind of caring [01:00:05] throughout the whole thing. I was never dismissive and kind of just brushed. [01:00:10]

Payman Langroudi: Off what happened. Did the specialists do something different or you don’t know?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. I mean, he obviously did what? [01:00:15] I mean, first of all, he had one look, he said, what were you even thinking, trying to do this.

Payman Langroudi: Because [01:00:20] it was heroic antics.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. As in it was never going to be easy even for him to do it. So what [01:00:25] were you doing? So. But anyway, um. Yeah, I haven’t heard from her since. And that’s probably because [01:00:30] I mean, hopefully everything’s fine, but probably also because she’s just one of those [01:00:35] that’s, I don’t know, embarrassed to kind of keep coming back to me. But, um, but.

Payman Langroudi: So the learning point on that one is [01:00:40] trust your gut.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Trust your gut and, um, do, yeah, do what you think [01:00:45] is.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t be led on off the.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Path. And again, I’m not saying this to kind of blame the patient because [01:00:50] this is one of those other.

Payman Langroudi: Patients are patients. It’s like blaming the sea if you’re the captain of a boat. [01:00:55] Yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Because you hear this, for example, in situations where let’s [01:01:00] say someone’s done something that maybe shouldn’t have done, but then they say, oh, but the patient consented for [01:01:05] it. They knew what they were signing up for. And you’re like, well, that’s not how it works, right?

Payman Langroudi: It’s, [01:01:10] it’s a bit of a get out.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I like it, but I don’t like it enough. It’s [01:01:15] kind of a happy ending in the end.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Happy. But I’m still not happy. Yeah, I [01:01:20] know what you mean.

Payman Langroudi: I like that too. I like that, I like that that’s what’s stuck in your head. That that story is the one [01:01:25] that’s stuck in your head. Yeah. There must be another one, though. Like a better story than that one.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Genuinely [01:01:30] ought to think.

Payman Langroudi: Did you not ever plan something incorrectly or. [01:01:35] I don’t know.

Bizhan Shokouhi: I mean, there’s been little things, right? I mean, I’ve had implants fail. I’ve had grafts fail. [01:01:40]

Payman Langroudi: There’s been I don’t want to hear a nightmare story. I want to hear a story of a failure that [01:01:45] made you learn and teach something differently. You know, [01:01:50] you used to do it this way. You saw this failure you didn’t expect. And now you do it. You [01:01:55] know, that’s a learning we can all. Anyone who’s getting involved in implants can. What comes to mind if I say that, [01:02:00] uh.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Soft tissues again? Oh, really? I can’t stop talking.

Payman Langroudi: About it enough. Yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Because [01:02:05] that’s one of the things that took me maybe longer than it should have to kind of understand and learn. Um, [01:02:10] maybe partly because of my surgery background, but yeah, like I would, you know, I knew [01:02:15] the importance of it, but I’ve had, you know, more than one case where the end result [01:02:20] was very obviously to me not adequate. And then trying to fix that is much harder [01:02:25] than if you just identified that at the start. And and do it again. So that’s why I kind of bang on about it so much and try [01:02:30] and teach all my students about it as well. But, uh, but yeah, I mean, fortunately, again, these [01:02:35] are not cases that makes or breaks it in a immediate way, but [01:02:40] I know for sure that they’re kind of not lined up to be ideal long term. And that kind of hurts as well, right? Because [01:02:45] when you do something, you want it to last forever. But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I had a guy, he said [01:02:50] for him, Implantology came down to the suturing. Um, I did not [01:02:55] expect that. It’s different for different people, right? Different people think about things in different ways.

Bizhan Shokouhi: But [01:03:00] I think there’s more to it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Of course. Yeah. But you know, the other thing is, you know, if I [01:03:05] could tell you 2 or 3 things that in my head would give you the whole key to my [01:03:10] company and my life, and, and you could go and do exactly what I did by knowing these 2 or 3 things. Yeah. [01:03:15] But you buy the thing is, you take it for granted. Yeah. All the other stuff, you know, you take [01:03:20] for granted. So, you know, for him, I guess he knew a bunch of stuff. But suturing had become.

Bizhan Shokouhi: The. [01:03:25]

Payman Langroudi: Thing he was he was facing.

Bizhan Shokouhi: You know, where he’s coming from.

Payman Langroudi: Really.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Because one of the [01:03:30] biggest things that makes a difference in implants is the suturing, but also the beginnings of the flap. Oh. [01:03:35] So it’s, uh, we’re again, we have a saying that the first [01:03:40] five minutes and the last ten minutes of the surgery are the most important.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Bizhan Shokouhi: I [01:03:45] mean, that can five, ten minutes can be a bit longer if it’s a complex case, obviously. But um [01:03:50] yeah, so as soon as you put your blade down, that’s when everything’s decided, you [01:03:55] know, it doesn’t matter if you do the most fancy suturing at the end, if you did a wrong flap or if you didn’t handle [01:04:00] tissues properly, it’s not going to give you the same result. Um, [01:04:05] and along with that, if we’re asking about what’s important as a surgeon in terms of, [01:04:10] uh, the actual surgery, so just having, doing [01:04:15] things, doing things deliberately. So, you know, when you raise a [01:04:20] flap, you cut in a certain way, you don’t just, you know, you hold your blade [01:04:25] a certain way, you place pressure in a certain way, you [01:04:30] do things gently. So one, one thing makes a big difference in the immediate [01:04:35] post doc phase is if you’re rough.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Bizhan Shokouhi: And this is with extractions as well. You [01:04:40] know, if you’re gentle and just deliberate about everything you do, honestly, everything’s [01:04:45] just much, much cleaner and the results are better. And then obviously all the other stuff about kind of [01:04:50] 3D planning goes into it as well. But you know, you can put the implant in the perfect place. Yeah. But [01:04:55] you kind of you’re just really rough with the flat.

Payman Langroudi: These nuances are the key, right? This is what I mean. I think all [01:05:00] of us sort of understand the thing in the bone, but these nuances. Yeah. The difference between good and great. [01:05:05] Right? Yeah. Yeah. So the other thing I noticed on your Instagram is the piano. [01:05:10]

Bizhan Shokouhi: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Pretty good piano. Yeah. Let’s talk about [01:05:15] Instagram. Were you did someone have to put you up to it? I saw your first ever post was [01:05:20] like, finally I’m being pushed into it. But [01:05:25] you don’t seem to me like the kind of influencer type.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah, I’m really. I’m [01:05:30] really not. And yeah, I mean, it took me it took me ages to kind of, I [01:05:35] don’t know, I, I was going to say have the courage to do it, but that’s making it too big. But yeah, [01:05:40] I’m not into social media. I mean, when I say that to people, I think what with my Instagram, but yeah, I don’t I don’t use [01:05:45] Facebook, for example.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t it’s interesting that you say courage. Yeah. So we do this composite course, um, [01:05:50] MSM and we ask every time who has got a, um, [01:05:55] a Dental account. Yeah. And you’d imagine like the kind of person who comes on a composite bonding [01:06:00] course.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s is that way inclined. Yeah. And yet [01:06:05] of the 30 delegates, normally it’s like 4 or 5. And [01:06:10] when you ask, okay, what’s the reason? A lot of them say it’s like [01:06:15] a confidence issue amongst your peers. It’s one of the big ones. And then the other one is like, [01:06:20] oh, I don’t want my auntie to people what I’m doing. So. So when you say confidence, [01:06:25] were you worried about that or are you worried about what your peers will think?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah, sure. Partly, but [01:06:30] partly also.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t want to be seen as that guy. I get that.

Bizhan Shokouhi: I get that. So [01:06:35] it’s like a reputation thing, almost like.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: I’m sure you know that Instagram sometimes [01:06:40] doesn’t have the best reputation in terms of, oh, is that guy that puts stuff on Instagram kind of thing. But, [01:06:45] um, but but yeah, at the same time I saw that it doesn’t have to be that way. And I’ve [01:06:50] shown through my account that it doesn’t have to be that way. So, um, you know, you can do it more of a, I try [01:06:55] as best as I can every post to some degree, at least have some educational value, [01:07:00] for example.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but did you like look into it? Were you naturally [01:07:05] good at it or?

Bizhan Shokouhi: No, what you said about did someone put me up to it is true, basically. [01:07:10] So.

Payman Langroudi: But how did you know what to do? How did you know what works and what doesn’t? And I was. [01:07:15]

Bizhan Shokouhi: Looking at, yeah, when I look back at my original posts, I. Yeah, they’re [01:07:20] no way as good as kind of an engaging as what I post now. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But, but even like the cadence piece [01:07:25] of it, you know, you’re doing it every other day. You’re posting from the beginning. I know every [01:07:30] three days.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. I don’t do that anymore. I’ve become a lot more lax. But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know what I [01:07:35] mean? Just a lot of people don’t know to do.

Bizhan Shokouhi: That on Google, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Just look it up [01:07:40] and.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Research what works and what doesn’t. Yeah. And you try it right until.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Um, and one [01:07:45] of the other big things is you just need time, I think. Yeah, you just got to persevere and it gets.

Payman Langroudi: Honestly, [01:07:50] thank goodness that you did it. Yeah. Because the number of people you’re helping with that, you know, if [01:07:55] you want to look.

Bizhan Shokouhi: At impact, I mean that’s what I’m doing. Hopefully. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: If you want to look at impact, you know, you’re probably having much more impact [01:08:00] with that than you are with your other job.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah, no, I do get messages like that. I [01:08:05] mean, I’ve had messages that I think they’re exaggerating here, but they say, oh, I learned more from your Instagram [01:08:10] than my whole diploma or something. I’m like.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, interesting.

Bizhan Shokouhi: It’s flattering. But yeah, you get the idea.

Payman Langroudi: No, it’s [01:08:15] brilliant though. It’s it’s a brilliant thing. Thank you. Um, I was talking to George. George the [01:08:20] dentist on Instagram.

Bizhan Shokouhi: I know of him.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. I was talking to him about it as well. He. He does this thing where he [01:08:25] doesn’t really spend too much time. He’s a busy. He owns multiple practices and all [01:08:30] of that. But the day to day things that come up for him, he [01:08:35] just takes a lot of photos. Yeah. And people love that account.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Because when when [01:08:40] people ask me, I must take you ages to do this stuff. Yeah. Of course. It kind of takes some time to kind of put things and make [01:08:45] it look nice, but the stuff’s there, right? I’m taking pictures. I’m not taking it for [01:08:50] the Instagram like I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Where did you learn photography? Because that’s excellent to.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Um, learn [01:08:55] to. Over the years I’ve not done a course or anything, if that’s what you’re asking.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re the kind of person that if you want [01:09:00] to learn something, you just dive in yourself and find everything you can about it.

Bizhan Shokouhi: I’ve always [01:09:05] had this feeling that nothing’s out of reach. Um, [01:09:10] and Linda, my wife, we think the same and we’re going to try and instil [01:09:15] this in our kids as well. Like if it really. It’s so cliche, but it really depends [01:09:20] on how much you want something. Uh, especially in this day and age, there’s so much [01:09:25] out there, right? If you want to learn anything, it’s. Yeah, go learn it tomorrow, basically. But, um, [01:09:30] but but yeah, um, like being resourceful and kind of just getting in there [01:09:35] and doing stuff.

Payman Langroudi: But no, but some people will think when they have an issue, they’ll think what [01:09:40] is the answer to the issue? Some people will think who um, [01:09:45] by the way, both are really good. Both. I mean my, my business partner, he’s always thinking who. [01:09:50]

Bizhan Shokouhi: Who in terms of what do you mean?

Payman Langroudi: We’ve got a question we want to answer. He’ll [01:09:55] say, should we hire someone to, to give us the answer to that? Mhm. Um, [01:10:00] when we started the podcast, my partner Prav [01:10:05] first thing he said was, let’s go find the world’s best podcast coach.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Um.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:10:10] wouldn’t have even dreamt of a person like that. You know, um, there’s different [01:10:15] ways of, of learning, you know.

Bizhan Shokouhi: And.

Payman Langroudi: I there’s a guy called Mike grey. Have you come across him? He’s [01:10:20] like a restorative dentist. He’s, he does, he does this thing called poise. It’s [01:10:25] for veneers. Right. And it’s like, I don’t know what it sounds like. Path of insertion, whatever, [01:10:30] whatever the rest of it. Se yeah. And, um, he’s, he’s done this. It’s [01:10:35] a way of doing veneers where because it path of insertion is slightly different. You don’t [01:10:40] need to cut anywhere near as much, but he overlays these scans on top of each other [01:10:45] and the thing shows up. You just need to remove this much of the central that much of the lateral this. [01:10:50] And he preps six veneers and 15 minutes. Right. You know, because he’s just [01:10:55] taking a bit off here and bit off there. And then and he said he’d never been on a restorative course. [01:11:00] Yeah. But but every time he wants to learn about something, he just shuts himself off [01:11:05] for a couple of weeks, gets every book, every resource he can on can. And [01:11:10] he’d rather just learn it all than go to a course and, and, you [01:11:15] know, learn from someone. And yet he’s got a course, right? So people come to him. It’s [01:11:20] an interesting way that different people kind of learn about something.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So is [01:11:25] that are you more the second way.

Bizhan Shokouhi: I think depends on the subject. The subject. Yeah. [01:11:30] Yeah. So something like taking photography as an example. I feel like that’s enough. [01:11:35] It’s easy enough to learn from books and websites and whatever. But but [01:11:40] things like, let’s say implants, it’s such [01:11:45] a thing, that big thing that the thing about kind of you don’t know what you don’t know is [01:11:50] so relevant here. Yeah, yeah. And then I wouldn’t want to just go into it by myself. And [01:11:55] that’s one of the big things about kind of having a mentor. It kind of starts [01:12:00] everything for you and you learn from their mistakes. True.

Payman Langroudi: Um, tell me about the people, the [01:12:05] mentors along the way. Or who do you look up to in Implantology?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Um, lots [01:12:10] of people, but one of the biggest ones who I did his course is called Esteban [01:12:15] Urban. He’s a he’s from he’s Hungarian Budapest. [01:12:20] So he’s one of the, if not the biggest name in vertical [01:12:25] bone regeneration and just general grafting. And yeah, he’s honestly, [01:12:30] he’s amazing. So in terms of both as a clinician and as a person. Yeah. [01:12:35] Like if you’re asking, who do I look up to? Like when I see what kind of surgeon he [01:12:40] is and what kind of, and he’s like such a down to earth guy and like, he’s not arrogant at all.

Payman Langroudi: The course [01:12:45] over.

Bizhan Shokouhi: There. Yeah, yeah, he’s in Budapest.

Payman Langroudi: Great town as well. Great.

Bizhan Shokouhi: It’s great. I love.

Payman Langroudi: It.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah yeah yeah. I’m going again this [01:12:50] year. So he runs a conference every two years. Okay. So I’m going there again.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And what graftings [01:12:55] the sort of or is it implantology in general.

Bizhan Shokouhi: No, no. It’s a hard and soft tissue grafting.

Payman Langroudi: That [01:13:00] conference is all about hard and soft tissue graft. Yeah, yeah. Amazing.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Who else? Who else?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Um, [01:13:05] I mean, there’s lots of kind of names [01:13:10] within the implant world that kind of.

Payman Langroudi: Come along your journey. Like, which mentors [01:13:15] did you like learn the most from?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Okay. So in [01:13:20] terms of one of the first people. So the he’s retired [01:13:25] now, but the program director in Bristol, his name is Jonathan Jonathan Schofield. [01:13:30] He was yeah, he was very inspiring as well [01:13:35] in terms of both as a clinician. So he wasn’t a specialist [01:13:40] but he was. And there’s one thing I was going to try and point out to people being a specialist isn’t all that [01:13:45] it kind of indicates some degree of training and [01:13:50] expertise, but some of the.

Payman Langroudi: Best like carte blanche.

Bizhan Shokouhi: You know, like some of the best dentists as [01:13:55] a whole dentist that I know are not specialists. So, um, [01:14:00] yeah, so he was, uh, he was, you know, he was a general dentist, but [01:14:05] implants was his thing and he was the program director. And yeah, his work was so good, but also his attitude was [01:14:10] was just so kind of positive. But also he always had this kind of can do attitude. [01:14:15] And, um, and it was one of those people that you [01:14:20] just feel good about yourself after you’re with him. You know what I mean?

Payman Langroudi: Like some people have that talent.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. Like I know [01:14:25] other people that are really good technically and they’re amazing and, you know, very knowledgeable, but then they’re [01:14:30] always just a bit of a downer once you, you know, you know what I mean, right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

Bizhan Shokouhi: And, and [01:14:35] yeah, well, he was the total opposite and everything kind of had a solution. And yeah, so I tried to really [01:14:40] spend as much time as I could with him and learn from him.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s move on to that other question [01:14:45] then. You’ve worked in a bunch of practices. Do you ever envisage yourself having your own?

Bizhan Shokouhi: No, [01:14:50] honestly.

Payman Langroudi: Can’t be bothered.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. And it’s just I’m [01:14:55] obviously very much a clinician and I enjoy it. And [01:15:00] I just don’t feel like there’s anything missing, if that makes sense. Yeah. I remember someone told me [01:15:05] when I was obviously I’ve thought about this a lot over the years, But someone told me, do you [01:15:10] wake up every day really wanting to practice? And I’m like, no, of course not. [01:15:15] No. So then that’s kind of my answer. So unless and this is what I’m saying, I was saying before, [01:15:20] you have to really want to have to want something. And that [01:15:25] passion is not there for.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, there’s nothing like a happy associate job. It’s a wonderful thing. [01:15:30] Yeah. It’s rare, by the way. You’re very lucky.

Bizhan Shokouhi: I I’m very aware of that.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, we [01:15:35] were talking earlier on about don’t you want to go to the West End or whatever, and the way you kind of what your face said to me is, [01:15:40] why, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Yeah, sure. So I do get that. [01:15:45] Um, although the reason why people with different reasons, but one of the main reasons why [01:15:50] people start their own practices is control. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, [01:15:55] and it takes a boss who pisses you off to make you think, God damn it, I want [01:16:00] to do it my own way. That said, looking at your account, looking the way you like to do things you could [01:16:05] write, you could. Let’s say it was a. In events, they call it blank canvas. Let’s [01:16:10] say there was this blank canvas place. Yeah. And if you are, [01:16:15] you are the kind of person who is kind of idealistic. You want to do something excellent. [01:16:20] You could do something excellent, right? Something that, you know, now I can’t be bothered. I haven’t [01:16:25] got time to practice.

Bizhan Shokouhi: You mean to set up a practice? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s possible. You know, like because. Because you’re that way inclined. [01:16:30] You’re excellence inclined. There is something to be said for it.

Bizhan Shokouhi: I mean, [01:16:35] without sounding arrogant, I know I could do it.

Payman Langroudi: I love that.

Bizhan Shokouhi: But [01:16:40] but yeah, it’s just I have to ask myself, why do I want to do it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I know [01:16:45] that, you know, I’m one of those people. If I’m going to do something, I’ll, I’ll [01:16:50] do it properly. And it’s just one of those things that I know is going to suck out so much of my [01:16:55] time and energy to do properly. And I just feel like I yeah, [01:17:00] it’s just at the moment anyway.

Payman Langroudi: Um, young kids are difficult, but you [01:17:05] know, when I ask people, people sitting here all walks of, of life, right? And I’m trying to get [01:17:10] to their motivation for doing what they’re doing. Yeah. Um, you know, [01:17:15] Anoushka Brogan from Three Children, 50 practices. Yeah. What? Why [01:17:20] does she have to go from 42 to 50? You know, there’s no there’s no logical [01:17:25] reason to do that. Right. But some people say I want [01:17:30] to live up to my potential as a as a reason for doing something. [01:17:35] Some people really do want jets and boats. You know, that’s, [01:17:40] that’s what they they term as success. You know, you could say to [01:17:45] me, success is not having to worry about paying the bills going on my three holidays a [01:17:50] year and happy children. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. Like if, if you managed to, to, to [01:17:55] filter that down, the one thing I would say is that life does sort of change your position on [01:18:00] all of this.

Bizhan Shokouhi: I think to, to get to the The bottom [01:18:05] of this, you have to really know your own core values. Yeah, right. You have [01:18:10] to know yourself, which is easier said than done, right? You learn over the years. But [01:18:15] but this is what I’m going back to in terms of I knew very early on I didn’t want my [01:18:20] life just to be about my work. Yeah. Um, and like what you just said about, um. [01:18:25]

Payman Langroudi: Living up to your potential.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. So on that point, [01:18:30] what I would ask is, would you rather live [01:18:35] up to your full potential, would not be at peace with yourself or be [01:18:40] content? And that’s the thing not, you know, I think [01:18:45] there’s a big difference between being happy and content, right? Be content, but know [01:18:50] that you’re kind of working within your within [01:18:55] your potential, not to the fullest of your potential. Right? And for me, the [01:19:00] second is more true. It’s interesting. Like I’m not. Um. Yeah. Like one [01:19:05] of the biggest things I value in life, just like you said, is just having that inner peace. Just knowing [01:19:10] that, you know, tomorrow I don’t have to wake up [01:19:15] and worry about X, Y, and z, right? So yeah, like just going to sleep [01:19:20] with a peaceful mind and waking up with a peaceful mind. That’s, I think one of the biggest.

Payman Langroudi: And did you discuss this with your [01:19:25] partner? Is it Linda? Linda. Linda, do you guys discuss this.

Bizhan Shokouhi: About [01:19:30] having a practice?

Payman Langroudi: No. The question of like, your basic principles being about this.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah, [01:19:35] yeah. Of course. Yeah. And we’re very much like minded. I would say she’s very [01:19:40] much on the same page. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You just don’t assume that for oral surgeon types, you know, you just [01:19:45] think the opposite. Yeah, yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. I don’t know how it’s worked out, but um, yeah, [01:19:50] we’re not. Yeah. I don’t know how.

Payman Langroudi: Assumptions can be wrong. Right. [01:19:55] So what comes to mind if I say what’s the best lecture or course? Is it [01:20:00] this guy in in the course.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. Easily. Like that was the the thing that kind [01:20:05] of really propelled me, I would say, from being an okay surgeon to like, really? Yeah. [01:20:10]

Payman Langroudi: What about lecture? Like even even early on or something like a lecturer.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. So I can tell [01:20:15] you one that I still remember, um, you know. Martin Keller. Yeah. So, so yeah, [01:20:20] there was a, I think it was one of those bd a evenings.

Payman Langroudi: The daughter test kind of one [01:20:25] that.

Bizhan Shokouhi: It was along those lines. Yeah. So and it was funny. I don’t know if they, they kind [01:20:30] of did this on purpose, but it was two speakers. There was him. But then [01:20:35] before him was someone talking about veneers and.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I think I remember this, [01:20:40] I think I remember this.

Bizhan Shokouhi: And it was just great because and you know what he’s like, [01:20:45] he just says what he thinks, right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah yeah yeah, yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: And he just came up and obviously he had his talk, but the way he kind [01:20:50] of not directly but indirectly ripped into the first guy and just [01:20:55] saying, I don’t care about, you know, what people think, you know, he kind of really just laid it out there. [01:21:00] That. And you got to remember, this was ages ago, before all this minimally invasive thing became [01:21:05] the norm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was one of the first people to really kind of talk about it.

Payman Langroudi: It was before Invisalign [01:21:10] properly.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Got out.

Bizhan Shokouhi: There. Exactly. Like he was the guy before. Was talking about full on [01:21:15] full prep veneers I’m talking about. Um, and yeah, it was just so refreshing to see in terms of, [01:21:20] you know, talking about the things that matter, but then also not being afraid of saying [01:21:25] what needs to be said.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a funny time, right? That people are afraid of saying these days. [01:21:30] Yeah. Things.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: For fear of being politically incorrect, for fear of whatever [01:21:35] it is. Yeah. And, but I think it’s incumbent on that class, [01:21:40] the professorial class, to speak their mind because in a way, that’s [01:21:45] one of the reasons we’re paying them to be professors is to speak their mind. Yeah. But [01:21:50] sometimes politically they’re the most constrained. Yeah. You know, they can’t they’re not they’re they’re [01:21:55] they’re they are the system. Yeah. And I was sitting next to Ian [01:22:00] Chappell. Do you know him?

Bizhan Shokouhi: I know of him. Yeah, I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: And. And I [01:22:05] was sitting next to him at a at a dinner. And then I’m good friends with Avi Banerjee and [01:22:10] just trying to understand. Right. If these guys want to say something, can they? Mhm. [01:22:15] Yeah. And in the end, it came down to. Yeah. They’ll say it in private.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Mhm. But on the air.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:22:20] not in public. But and Kelleher.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Was he was.

Payman Langroudi: Kieran was bucking that trend.

Bizhan Shokouhi: That’s [01:22:25] what I mean. That’s what was so nice about it. Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah for sure. It’s [01:22:30] been a massive pleasure to have you man. We come to the end of our time. I tend to end it with the same questions [01:22:35] every time. Um, fantasy dinner party. Three guests. [01:22:40] Dead or alive.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Who you.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Talking to? Our friends about this. And I think it depends [01:22:45] on my mood, but. Right. Changes. Right. But [01:22:50] I’d say, um. Derren Brown. Oh, yeah. Do you know him? Yeah, yeah. Have you [01:22:55] seen his shows? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well, no, I haven’t gone.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Have you not gone? Is it good? Amazing. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:23:00] hypnosis.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. Mentalism.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. He’d be.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Fun. He’d [01:23:05] be very fun. Yeah. So like, his shows are much better than his TV stuff. And he’s written a [01:23:10] lot of books.

Payman Langroudi: He’s I wasn’t aware.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. So he writes a lot about, um, [01:23:15] like happiness, but also like stoicism, which I’m big into. [01:23:20] Yeah. I think he’d be fun. Um, second person, I mean, it’s a bit out [01:23:25] there, but on the topic of stoicism, Marcus Aurelius I think [01:23:30] it’s really interesting.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not the first time he’s come up.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Has he not?

Payman Langroudi: He’s come up before. Yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Just [01:23:35] because. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Just because of how long ago he was saying the stuff he was saying. Right.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. And how it still [01:23:40] applies today.

Payman Langroudi: Still applies.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Today.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, listen, we’re Iranians, right? You we’ve Iranians, [01:23:45] you sit around with your parents talking poetry like thousand year old poetry. That’s [01:23:50] still, still applies today. Yeah. And, you know, we were talking about this conversation of, um, AI, [01:23:55] But there are certain human truths, right? Certain human truths that will never [01:24:00] change.

Bizhan Shokouhi: But there are things he writes in his book about, um, I don’t know, like [01:24:05] comparing yourself to others, for example, like we think it’s a very modern thing on social [01:24:10] media.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: But you think back 2000 years ago, they were still thinking about [01:24:15] the same things. So yeah, there is some. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Who’s your third? What an interesting dinner [01:24:20] parties already turning out to be.

Bizhan Shokouhi: So this one I’m gonna cheat a little bit. [01:24:25] I’m going to say Muhammad Ali.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: But both in his prime and [01:24:30] also when he retired, there’s two different.

Payman Langroudi: Characters to see the to see it. Yeah. Yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Because [01:24:35] I would just want to know because, you know, he got Parkinson’s when he was like 42, 43, something [01:24:40] like that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Yeah. Was it all worth it? You know, we keep talking about [01:24:45] this topic of kind of living up to your potential and.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bizhan Shokouhi: But then, you know.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:24:50] mean, you’re right. You know, apparently Gandhi’s wife hated him.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Oh, is that right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:24:55] I don’t know. I shouldn’t. I shouldn’t throw out something. So. So general. Yeah. [01:25:00] But these. It happens. It exists. I’ve got friends, you know. Like your dad. Eminent [01:25:05] surgeon. Never home. Never home. You know that. So you know it’s a real thing. [01:25:10] Is it worth it to live up to your potential? It’s a brilliant question. Yeah. Should we. Should we? Should we [01:25:15] call that the pod? The name of the pod. We’ll leave. We’ll leave. We’ll leave it up to, uh. Is it [01:25:20] worth it? The copyright. Is it worth it? Was it worth it?

Bizhan Shokouhi: Was it worth it? Was it worth the journey?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. No. [01:25:25] Thank you so much. I’ve really enjoyed talking. Thanks for coming.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Thank you for having me. It’s been a pleasure.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Bizhan Shokouhi: Thank you so much. [01:25:30]

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure you tune in for future [01:25:35] episodes. Hit subscribe in iTunes or Google Play or whatever platform [01:25:40] it is. And you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you would, um, give.

Payman Langroudi: Us a six [01:25:45] star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. That’s what I always leave my Uber driver. [01:25:50]

Payman Langroudi: Thanks a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.

Payman Langroudi: If a Dental event isn’t super fun, stay at home. Don’t waste your weekend. September 18th [00:00:05] and 19th downtown is flipping the script. Not only an insane Line-Up. Probably the best in the [00:00:10] UK this year, but also a festival atmosphere and a super cool, enlightened party on the Friday [00:00:15] night. My talk on Friday will be in the business hub all about pure practice growth [00:00:20] with whitening, and every single attendee will walk out with a free enlightened kit. On Saturday, I’ll be interviewing [00:00:25] one of my all time heroes, Galip Gorrell, about his crazy, veneer cutting [00:00:30] robot. See you there. Let’s learn, connect and enjoy together. Downtown on September [00:00:35] 18th and 19th.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:40] is Dental [00:00:45] Leaders. The podcast where you get to go one on [00:00:50] one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:55] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:01:00]

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Anita Pradhan onto the [00:01:05] podcast. Anita is a Nepalese dentist, not Nepalese [00:01:10] trained, Indian trained. Is that right? Indian trained? Yes, yes. But I met you through an ulcer. Is [00:01:15] that right? Yes. Yeah. Um, who is over in the UK now? But your [00:01:20] main focus now is training with the Phoenix Dental Academy, [00:01:25] mainly. Ori. What does Ori stand for?

Anita Pradan: Overseas registration. [00:01:30] Examination?

Payman Langroudi: Oh of course. So [00:01:35] right now it’s a hot topic, right? Because we don’t have enough dentists. And [00:01:40] so people are coming from the outside and the auras are famously [00:01:45] difficult examination. Yeah. Um, how did you get into education [00:01:50] instead of just being a dentist?

Anita Pradan: It was not really intended, [00:01:55] but I did my Ori as well.

Payman Langroudi: Which year was it?

Anita Pradan: Oh my God, that was very [00:02:00] long ago. So I did a Completed My Aura Part 2 in 2012.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:02:05]

Anita Pradan: And it was quite a difficult journey despite [00:02:10] being from a Dental family. My dad’s a dentist as well.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really? [00:02:15]

Anita Pradan: And he practices here in the UK.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really?

Anita Pradan: Yes. Um, but despite all [00:02:20] the advantages I had, I think it was still quite a challenging exam and [00:02:25] I didn’t have the best support. And it was quite frustrating because [00:02:30] it took me, I started my journey in 2007.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Anita Pradan: So you [00:02:35] can see how many years it took me. Um, but I thought that if I ever [00:02:40] had an opportunity to guide other overseas dentists like myself, [00:02:45] then I would definitely take that opportunity.

Payman Langroudi: That’s how it came about.

Anita Pradan: That’s how it came about. Yeah. [00:02:50] But I thought, I’m going to do it, you know, for a couple of months, maybe a year, [00:02:55] because I really loved clinical dentistry and I never thought I could [00:03:00] teach. I never taught before. And yeah, that’s [00:03:05] what inspired me to begin my journey teaching. And then I really enjoyed [00:03:10] it. Um, I enjoyed it so much that I can’t stop. So [00:03:15] yeah, so here we are.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s go through Ori itself. Yeah. Understand there’s some [00:03:20] bits of it you can only repeat four times or something. Yes. Is that right. Four times. Yeah. [00:03:25]

Anita Pradan: So each part. So it has two parts.

Payman Langroudi: Two parts. Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. So the part one [00:03:30] is computer based. And the second part is like on phantom heads. And there’s a lot [00:03:35] of communication skills or skills and treatment planning medical emergencies. So [00:03:40] each part you can repeat four times, but within a span of five years [00:03:45] only. Yeah. So if you can’t.

Payman Langroudi: If you can’t do part two within [00:03:50] five years, it’s all over.

Anita Pradan: It’s over.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You can’t start again. Do part 2.1 again. Oh, well. [00:03:55]

Anita Pradan: I mean, you have an alternative route, the LDS.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: But I think [00:04:00] once someone starts that journey giving part one and preparing for part two, I think [00:04:05] if you can’t complete it within the five years, it’s quite disheartening. Um, yeah, [00:04:10] but I know quite a lot of people who have not made it in the oh three and [00:04:15] then gone and done the LDS and got their registration. Yeah. [00:04:20]

Payman Langroudi: And what is what’s the LDS route? What’s the difference?

Anita Pradan: So that’s why it’s from [00:04:25] the Royal College. You get a diploma as well at the end of it. Um, it has three [00:04:30] parts instead of two. Um the basic structure of the exam is quite similar, but [00:04:35] the LDS is more clinical based. So I think people who [00:04:40] are like a lot of like, you know, hands on clinical type people will prefer the LDS route. [00:04:45] It’s, it’s easy to navigate because you’re thinking more clinically. Um, [00:04:50] but Ori is quite rigid. So it’s like more textbook kind of preparation. [00:04:55]

Payman Langroudi: Um, but you can do one without the other. Nothing to do with each other, you know.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. [00:05:00] So both will lead to registration with the GDC.

Payman Langroudi: And what about [00:05:05] this other route that people come in and become hygienists?

Anita Pradan: Oh, yeah. So that they [00:05:10] had it for a while. Now. We don’t have that route anymore.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? That’s gone.

Anita Pradan: That’s gone. But we [00:05:15] did help quite a lot of our own candidates when, [00:05:20] you know, when when there was Covid, obviously there was no exams. So a lot of them registered registered [00:05:25] through that route as hygienists or therapists.

Payman Langroudi: Without exams.

Anita Pradan: Without exams. But [00:05:30] it’s quite a tough application process.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Anita Pradan: Um, and it’s quite rigorously, [00:05:35] uh, marked by the GDC. They go through everything and then they give the registration. [00:05:40] So we have quite a lot of dentists from overseas who are now.

Payman Langroudi: They become therapists and [00:05:45] then then do the or if they want to be a dentist.

Anita Pradan: If they want to be a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Or otherwise, it stays therapist [00:05:50] Yes. Hygienists. Yes. Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. We have quite a lot of [00:05:55] our past delegates who attended our training who have now they’re [00:06:00] working as therapists and doing really, really well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: You know, if they’re earning nine, [00:06:05] ten grand a month, they’re like, why do we need to go and sit there and have. [00:06:10] Obviously, it’s a much more like, you know, there’s much more litigation.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:06:15]

Anita Pradan: The scope of practice is larger and they’re like more risks. So I think they’re [00:06:20] happier.

Payman Langroudi: Therapist led care is becoming a big thing in the NHS I’ve noticed. Yeah. [00:06:25] But we’ve also we’ve got someone coming to that event, uh, Amber Aplin, that if you come across her, [00:06:30] she’s got this thing about therapist led private dentistry. And her idea [00:06:35] is that if therapists are trained to the same level as dentists in, you [00:06:40] know, post-graduate. Yes. Then they should charge the same as dentists.

Anita Pradan: Yeah, I think [00:06:45] so.

Payman Langroudi: And from the, you know, from the practice perspective, obviously it works very well because they pay them an hourly rate [00:06:50] and then they can charge as much as a dentist charges. And then that frees the dentist [00:06:55] to do the sort of the crown and bridge and exactly higher value work. So [00:07:00] who has to take the O.R. right now? What’s the European Union story? Like, if I’ve qualified [00:07:05] in Spain, can I.

Anita Pradan: Go? No. You have to take the O.R..

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Already?

Anita Pradan: Yeah. [00:07:10] Uh, a lot of the countries. You do have to take the O.R.. I think there’s still some exempt countries [00:07:15] and some exempt universities, but it’s, again, you have to apply to get [00:07:20] that exemption. So you still have an evaluation. It’s not a, you know, [00:07:25] automatic automatic. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But so at what point did that change.

Anita Pradan: The EU [00:07:30] uh well after Brexit, but they did give some time. No, no, they did give. [00:07:35]

Payman Langroudi: Some kind of recently.

Anita Pradan: Yes. It’s very recently.

Payman Langroudi: So so then there’s loads of people who don’t get into dental school [00:07:40] in the UK or don’t want to get into dental school and they go and study in Spain. They have to do re.

Anita Pradan: Now [00:07:45] not all of them. So they. But they do have to do the same. It used to be [00:07:50] known as plv, right. So a training like v t training for overseas, [00:07:55] uh, qualified clinicians, they still have to go through that process. Um, [00:08:00] so one maximum of one year under mentorship. But again, now, [00:08:05] because obviously because we don’t have enough dentists, even that time frame [00:08:10] depends upon each individual of how much clinical experience they have, um, [00:08:15] their competency, they evaluate all that and then they, [00:08:20] they tell you what time frame you need to spend under mentorship. So [00:08:25] a lot of the clinicians still have to do that period, even though they don’t [00:08:30] have to do the or they still have to spend that time under mentorship. It’s quite [00:08:35] difficult to get those jobs, to be honest, especially as, you know, newly qualified dentists, [00:08:40] even from the EU. Um, the practices of course are looking at previous [00:08:45] work experience. And when they see that you are newly qualified, [00:08:50] um, they don’t want to give you the job.

Payman Langroudi: So although it’s [00:08:55] kind of disconnect between the number of dentists that we need and [00:09:00] allowing dentists to come in and fill those roles, like if you were the queen of the world, [00:09:05] what would you change?

Anita Pradan: I think in terms of, uh, in [00:09:10] terms of this whole process of overseas clinicians coming and working here, [00:09:15] um, I think there’s a big void of mentors who are going to, [00:09:20] you know, train the new clinicians may not be willing to I mean, they may [00:09:25] not be new clinicians. You know, there are different categories. Like there might be someone who’s well qualified [00:09:30] number of years of clinical experience abroad, but they are now navigating the NHS [00:09:35] system. You know, our rules and regulations here, but no [00:09:40] one’s willing to give any of their time to train overseas clinicians. [00:09:45] Young clinicians are the like, you know, the most at [00:09:50] disadvantage because they don’t have the clinical experience. So no one wants to [00:09:55] take them. No one wants to spend time training them. So I think if we were to have a [00:10:00] really ideal world, we would have to have practices which were dedicated [00:10:05] to mentoring, you know, and they would have maybe like a six month period [00:10:10] where they would have like really intense mentoring and then they go out [00:10:15] and, you know, they can practice with more confidence with maybe not as much mentorship, [00:10:20] but the mentorship that that is provided. Now, whenever they have a problem, they can approach [00:10:25] someone, their senior clinicians. So I think that would be like an ideal, you know.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:10:30] sometimes you hear stories of those dentists being sort of exploited.

Anita Pradan: Oh my goodness. [00:10:35]

Payman Langroudi: That’s a big thing, right? Because because they’ve got no experience, they’re coming. They’ve [00:10:40] got nothing on paper really that that sets them apart. And then you [00:10:45] get the kind of on the other side, the principal that wants to yes, exploit type [00:10:50] of stories. Like what a terrible stories that you’ve heard. Because I heard I read some [00:10:55] awful stuff.

Anita Pradan: We have awful stories. I have a personal one. Oh, really? Yes. So obviously [00:11:00] I gave my all and then I was quite keen to start my clinical practice. [00:11:05] Yeah. Um, fortunately, I hadn’t stopped working more than a couple of months [00:11:10] when I applied. Um, I got an opportunity, [00:11:15] an interview in London at one of the practices, um, and I went for the interview, [00:11:20] which was, it was very late in the evening in the [00:11:25] winter time, so it was dark and I was already quite anxious. The [00:11:30] area was very, very poorly lit. The practice, it [00:11:35] was so dimly lit. I was like, am I in the right place? So the principal dentist, [00:11:40] he came out, had a chat. It was not really an interview. It was just a very [00:11:45] short chat. And then he offered me the job and he said, well, it’s a three [00:11:50] year contract and you’ll be paid a monthly salary, 1500 [00:11:55] per month.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s.

Anita Pradan: It. Yeah. That’s it.

Payman Langroudi: Less [00:12:00] than 50.

Anita Pradan: Yes. And, um, and if you leave before [00:12:05] your three year term, you’ll have to pay 15,000 per year.

Payman Langroudi: Wow. [00:12:10]

Anita Pradan: And of course I had to decline. [00:12:15] So I, I, you know, obviously politely thanked him for the opportunity and said, [00:12:20] um, I don’t think it will suit me because I need to move away from home. So I don’t [00:12:25] think I can cover my expenses in London for that amount. And, um, [00:12:30] but I was grateful. And he was so angry.

Payman Langroudi: That you didn’t [00:12:35] jump at that chance.

Anita Pradan: He actually shouted at me and said that, you know, people [00:12:40] would have jumped at that opportunity and I was so ungrateful.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Anita Pradan: Uh, it [00:12:45] was quite shocking that, you know, you know, things like that happen. But since [00:12:50] then, of course, I’ve heard so many more stories. Um, people signing [00:12:55] contracts, which have, uh, they’re not hidden clauses, to be honest. They’re [00:13:00] quite clearly written on paper. And people have signed those without understanding [00:13:05] their contracts.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of things have people put in those contracts?

Anita Pradan: So one of my, um, [00:13:10] my batch mates from my university, so he signed a, he was not, [00:13:15] it was not as a dentist, but it was as a therapist, but he signed a contract [00:13:20] that tied him in for five years. And if he left [00:13:25] earlier than the five year term, then he would be paying back the projected [00:13:30] income for the remainder of the term.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Anita Pradan: I [00:13:35] mean, projected you could project anything.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: So [00:13:40] they were very, very high earning therapists in the practice who were making like 10,000 per month. [00:13:45] And if they were projecting based on them, he would.

Payman Langroudi: Owe [00:13:50] half £1 million or something.

Anita Pradan: So he [00:13:55] was so terrified because and the other thing is that the practice was making him do really [00:14:00] unethical things. Mhm. You know, things that patients didn’t require. And he [00:14:05] refused. And they were very, very upset with him. And it was just like a bad environment [00:14:10] for him to work. So he just wanted to leave. But his contract was obviously [00:14:15] what he signed was this. Um, so he end up just, he ended up [00:14:20] leaving and just going back, um, without telling the practice.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so he [00:14:25] didn’t, he didn’t fulfil that side of the contract. No. Uh, probably. Right. But [00:14:30] there should be some way of like some GDC way of not allowing that to happen, [00:14:35] right? I mean, I’ve heard I’ve heard of situations where the practice hasn’t paid [00:14:40] the person. And then when they’ve said, hey, where’s my money? Report them to the GDC, [00:14:45] um, for something that they made them do. Yes. So [00:14:50] that’s what’s so awful. The idea that, you know, you might be in this situation where you’re having to do unethical [00:14:55] work because you haven’t got the time or the equipment or the policy says such and such happens [00:15:00] this way. Yeah. So you’re putting yourself at massive risk from the patient side, and [00:15:05] there’s nothing you can do about it. You can’t leave. Yeah. Awful.

Anita Pradan: And I think like.

Payman Langroudi: Do [00:15:10] you cover this in your course as well.

Anita Pradan: We do.

Payman Langroudi: You should. Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. Because we have, you [00:15:15] know, starting an NHS practice. We have an introductory course. And in this we talk about all these [00:15:20] things like what, what problems you could face and how to tackle them because it’s [00:15:25] quite difficult as a, as a new clinician starting a new country, you’ve moved, [00:15:30] you’ve, you know, maybe taken a alone, sold everything that you had and you moved [00:15:35] and and you feel like you have to like you don’t have any other option. [00:15:40] And a lot of the time, you know, you feel like, um, there [00:15:45] is no way out. You can’t, you feel like you can’t speak against the practice [00:15:50] because they might report you for something. You might lose your job and your income. But [00:15:55] it’s such a sad situation.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: No, it’s really sad.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s so [00:16:00] funny because the funny is the wrong word. It’s so interesting that someone could be [00:16:05] an Indian graduate who is now practising dentistry in the UK and [00:16:10] on paper back home, or whatever their family or themselves. [00:16:15] This is an amazing thing. He’s a dentist, graduated now in the UK. Everything’s [00:16:20] going to be okay. Yeah. Whereas the reality of it could be much, much more difficult than [00:16:25] that. Yeah. It makes you sad to think that, you know, like dentists [00:16:30] and or dentist kind of suffering that can go on.

Anita Pradan: I know it’s [00:16:35] terrible. And obviously, you know, you see all these I’ve seen some of some of my delegates. [00:16:40] They they join practices. They, they, you know, they contact us to say that they are suffering. They [00:16:45] are going through all this. But on their Instagram, the story is very different. [00:16:50]

Payman Langroudi: Go on, go on, go on. How interesting.

Anita Pradan: You know, on Instagram, you see like, you know, they’re [00:16:55] having a nice life. They’re taking all these holidays abroad. You know, they’re [00:17:00] living in a nice place, driving a nice car. But the, the truth behind it is that they [00:17:05] are suffering. They’re struggling. And you can’t see that like, [00:17:10] you know, for, for other people who are aspiring to come to the UK, all they can see [00:17:15] is things that they see on social media.

Payman Langroudi: That’s so true, so misleading.

Anita Pradan: And [00:17:20] I feel sorry because then these people, they’re like, oh, let’s go, you know, we’ll have a great life. [00:17:25] And of course you can. There are many clinicians who have great lives.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me the best story [00:17:30] you’ve heard. Like so. So do you know? Do you know Sandeep Kumar? Yes. He came over, [00:17:35] um, as an Indian graduate. Didn’t even speak English. [00:17:40] He said. He said he was very weak on English. He became a dental nurse and, [00:17:45] uh, swept the floor of the dental practice and all of that. And [00:17:50] eventually he had. Well, I don’t know if you know about him. He’s [00:17:55] a massive chain of dental practices and the biggest NHS contract in the Midlands. [00:18:00] And the My Smile network and yes, all of that. Do you have stories like that? You must [00:18:05] have a couple of guys.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. So um so of course, like I’ve been teaching for a [00:18:10] long time now. Yeah. Um, this is my 13th year, so I’ve seen like maybe five, 6000 [00:18:15] overseas dentists.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anita Pradan: So some of them of course still keep in touch and [00:18:20] um, a lot of them have their own practices now.

Payman Langroudi: Um, that must make you feel proud.

Anita Pradan: Very [00:18:25] like, and then when they call you to say, you know, can you come for my practice opening? [00:18:30] Like, you know, I couldn’t have done this without you. It feels amazing. And I think that’s what keeps me going, [00:18:35] you know, to see that I am making a difference.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a [00:18:40] funny thing, isn’t it? Like that, the non-measurable things that make such [00:18:45] a difference, like all the way from as a dentist, it might be the patient says, thank you. [00:18:50] Yes. In a really, you know, genuine way from a dentist [00:18:55] perspective, that’s way more valuable than the money he gave you.

Anita Pradan: The money is.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. [00:19:00] It almost doesn’t make sense. Right? Yeah. And then the stuff you’re saying here, I think [00:19:05] of it in mini Smile makeover. At the end of the course, someone gives you a hug and says you were [00:19:10] brilliant. Or this was the best weekend or something.

Anita Pradan: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Non-measurable stuff. [00:19:15] Yeah. And especially in business, I find a lot of times people put everything down to numbers and measurable. [00:19:20]

Anita Pradan: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Things. And and sometimes the real magic [00:19:25] in a business and a product and service is the stuff you can’t really [00:19:30] measure.

Anita Pradan: Exactly. I definitely think that 100% that’s that’s very, very true. [00:19:35] So one of my, uh, my delegates, so he’s, he’s my friend [00:19:40] now as well. So he did his, uh, so he did his LDS exam. And that [00:19:45] was quite a number of years ago, maybe around 2000 and maybe [00:19:50] 1314. I just started teaching and, um, he’s [00:19:55] opening his sixth practice now.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Anita Pradan: So it’s so amazing to see, like, [00:20:00] you know, and he came from Pakistan with nothing with a massive loan. [00:20:05] So his parents had sold their land to pay for his exams [00:20:10] and his, uh, you know, airfare and all that. And he [00:20:15] was suffering with quite a lot of health problems as well.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Anita Pradan: And [00:20:20] he struggled when he was giving the exam. And obviously at that time when I was teaching, [00:20:25] I was earning per day. And, um, you know, to me, like, even [00:20:30] if I had ten, 12 won, it didn’t really make a difference. And we had a lot of free classes for, [00:20:35] for this particular person. And he passed the exam and, uh, he started [00:20:40] working somewhere, didn’t hear from him for quite a number of years. And then suddenly one day he [00:20:45] was like, you know what? I completely, uh, you know, forgot to contact you, but you’re [00:20:50] always on my mind. And I’ve opened my second practice, and now he’s opening [00:20:55] his sixth practice.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Anita Pradan: And doing really, really well. It’s so amazing to see. [00:21:00] It’s it’s just. And then you feel like I try to [00:21:05] remember, like, did I really contribute so much? Because it’s [00:21:10] like, I couldn’t have done this without you. Without you, this day would never have come.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:21:15] interesting because I, I go around dental practices sometimes teaching them about [00:21:20] teeth whitening. Yeah. And sometimes the person completely [00:21:25] takes what you’re saying and implements it. It’s [00:21:30] actually not very often. Maybe I’m not the best teacher, but some people do that. And [00:21:35] for them, let’s say it works out. That person ends up thinking, you’re amazing. But [00:21:40] actually he’s amazing. He’s the one who took the advice and ran with it. Yeah, I [00:21:45] was trying to explain. I’m thinking of one person in particular. I was trying to explain to him. Listen, I just [00:21:50] said the same thing to you as I say to everyone. Exactly. But you took it on and and, and implemented [00:21:55] it.

Anita Pradan: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: And so in our courses, for instance, [00:22:00] I come across students who delegates who are [00:22:05] amazing. Some of them have even pre-prepared before they get to the, [00:22:10] let’s call it the composite bonding course, pre-prepared. Before they even get there, they contact you three [00:22:15] days or one week before saying, I’m coming. I’m really excited. Then on the day they’re [00:22:20] that contributing. And then after the course, putting it [00:22:25] into practice straight away.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then the opposite.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What’s [00:22:30] your view on on that? Like, why is it one person is [00:22:35] one way and one person is another way? And how soon can you tell? By now you must be able to tell.

Anita Pradan: I think. [00:22:40]

Anita Pradan: You can tell almost.

Anita Pradan: Instantly.

Anita Pradan: You can tell.

Payman Langroudi: I was surprised by that.

Payman Langroudi: Tell you the truth. But lots of teachers [00:22:45] told me that. So you could tell instantly. I thought really? But now you can almost tell straight away.

Anita Pradan: You [00:22:50] can almost tell instantly. It’s it’s. I think when you see so many [00:22:55] delegates, I think you can you can gauge how each person is. And I think [00:23:00] that’s what like I like about teaching is that everyone’s so different. [00:23:05] And when you are like, it’s not the same. Like, you know, you might think that, okay, you’re just [00:23:10] teaching or course, it’s quite simple to be honest, very simple, but it’s [00:23:15] leading to something And you can see that some [00:23:20] people are, as you said, they are already prepared. They already [00:23:25] know quite a lot and they are super engaged. And sometimes [00:23:30] there are people who might not appear to be engaged only because on my courses especially [00:23:35] is because they’ve been away from dentistry for very, very long. And I’ve [00:23:40] seen delegates who have not touched, you know, forget the phantom head, like they’ve [00:23:45] not seen a patient for like maybe ten years.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Yeah. How’s that?

Anita Pradan: So [00:23:50] they might have like, got married, you know, have children.

Anita Pradan: They’ll be starting again.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:23:55] yeah.

Anita Pradan: It’s quite challenging. And you can see that they are [00:24:00] hesitant not because maybe not because they are not engaging. It’s because [00:24:05] they don’t remember much. And I know that I’ll have to put in more effort for [00:24:10] that person. So I know that during the course I’ll have a mixed group sometimes. And [00:24:15] you know.

Payman Langroudi: And you have to account for that. Yeah, that’s that’s an important point. Yeah. That accounting [00:24:20] for those different learning styles, if you like.

Anita Pradan: Exactly. So you can’t teach the same way for every group. [00:24:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Every time you have to make some subtle changes to your teaching style. And sometimes, [00:24:30] you know, you teach and they don’t understand and you need to have another method by which you’re going to [00:24:35] teach. And I think, you know, years of teaching has taught me that. And [00:24:40] I’m, I really love it. You know.

Payman Langroudi: You were a general dentist. You weren’t a teacher [00:24:45] of any sort. No. And then you start the academy. And are you the main teacher in the academy? [00:24:50]

Anita Pradan: So I used to teach for a different academy before.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I.

Payman Langroudi: See.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:24:55] another academy?

Anita Pradan: Yes. Another.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, okay.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Anita Pradan: So around maybe four. I [00:25:00] taught for around eight years there.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I.

Payman Langroudi: See.

Anita Pradan: Till Covid.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I.

Payman Langroudi: See. Yes. [00:25:05]

Anita Pradan: Um, so I used to work as the general manager of the whole company as well. [00:25:10] So they had a manufacturing company as well. And I worked as [00:25:15] the main, um, like basically I had to manage the academy as well. And I [00:25:20] used to teach the mannequin courses as well, but I used to, you know, do everything for every other [00:25:25] course as well. So there was a lot on my plate and during like before [00:25:30] Covid, actually, it, it just got too much because I used to work 8 to 8 nearly [00:25:35] every day, um, without any significant break or holiday. Um, [00:25:40] so I reached a point where I had [00:25:45] to stop or I was feeling like that’s the end of me. You know.

Payman Langroudi: Covid [00:25:50] was an interesting time for that. Make people reflect on their lives.

Anita Pradan: Actually, it saved my life.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. I [00:25:55] must say.

Payman Langroudi: Because you were, you know, you were 8 to 18 and not looking up.

Anita Pradan: Yeah, I was at [00:26:00] you know, there were days when I used to have palpitations. I used to think I’m going to have a heart [00:26:05] attack today.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Anita Pradan: It was so stressful. My job, it was a lot. Um, but [00:26:10] of course, I learnt a lot from that job, I must say. I mean, without that, I don’t think I would.

Anita Pradan: Be [00:26:15] where I.

Payman Langroudi: Am. It’s also a classic entrepreneur story that you’re working in a place and you [00:26:20] think, well, I could do this myself. It’s it’s definitely a way a lot of entrepreneurs [00:26:25] start.

Anita Pradan: Yeah, I think so.

Anita Pradan: And I think for me, like, I, I took that break as, as a [00:26:30] very positive step. Um, I was just driving down the motorway one day and I [00:26:35] just stopped on the hard shoulder and cried.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Anita Pradan: I took [00:26:40] my laptop out of my boot, typed my resignation.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? [00:26:45] Really?

Anita Pradan: I was like, you know, I need to. I need to save myself first if I’m [00:26:50] going to do anything, you know?

Payman Langroudi: What did they teach you? I mean, okay, you resigned. Yeah, [00:26:55] yeah. So did you. Did you feel like. Why, why, why did you resign? What [00:27:00] did you do? You now treat your people differently to the way you were being treated by these guys? [00:27:05]

Anita Pradan: Hundred percent.

Payman Langroudi: Give me some examples.

Anita Pradan: So first of all, there’s no like there’s [00:27:10] no working and not getting paid? No. If you do a job, [00:27:15] you know you deserve it. You deserve to be paid and paid properly, you [00:27:20] know? Not like two pennies for, you know, stuff that, you know, people [00:27:25] exploitatively. No, not at all. I don’t I would never do that to anyone [00:27:30] and pay on time.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Were you not getting paid.

Anita Pradan: No, not.

Payman Langroudi: On working 8 to [00:27:35] 8. I’m not getting paid on time either.

Anita Pradan: No.

Anita Pradan: I like, you know, people have bills to pay. People [00:27:40] have.

Anita Pradan: Lives.

Anita Pradan: And even if they don’t need the money, they’ve earned it. So [00:27:45] despite the fact, you know, they need to be paid on time.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. 25 [00:27:50] years in this business, we’ve never, ever done that to an employee. It’s mad.

Anita Pradan: No.

Payman Langroudi: You’re [00:27:55] not going to keep employees that way.

Anita Pradan: No, no, not at all. And of course, like, you know, it’s a family. [00:28:00] You grow together. So I don’t believe in like, you know, keeping things for just the company or [00:28:05] myself. We all are part of it. And we, we take a percentage of [00:28:10] everything and at the end of the year, we give bonuses. We are very small, to be honest, but [00:28:15] everyone who deserves deserves it. You know, we take care of them if [00:28:20] they have any problems like, you know, in the family or anything like that. They need our support. We are here. Whatever [00:28:25] I can do, I will do for my for my tutors. So [00:28:30] we have like a tutorial team of now 15.

Payman Langroudi: Teachers.

Anita Pradan: Teachers, and [00:28:35] we have support staff. We have our admin team.

Payman Langroudi: So how many people in total?

Anita Pradan: Um, [00:28:40] total. We have around 23.

Payman Langroudi: Well that’s.

Anita Pradan: Small. It’s small.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not that small. [00:28:45] So it’s a lot for an education business. It’s a lot.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. [00:28:50]

Payman Langroudi: You know there’s plenty of education businesses with less less people than that.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. [00:28:55]

Anita Pradan: I think every like when I left from that company, everyone because they had joined, [00:29:00] because.

Anita Pradan: They had taught them.

Anita Pradan: And they wanted to teach alongside me [00:29:05] and they were very, very happy. You know, I used to support them, obviously, to do their jobs and [00:29:10] make sure that they were getting paid on time and being fairly treated. So [00:29:15] when I left, it, just everyone left.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, wow.

Anita Pradan: So [00:29:20] yeah, so obviously I didn’t want them to leave and they should do [00:29:25] what’s best for them. Um, but I guess it’s, uh, you know, it’s your relations [00:29:30] y, you know, you work somewhere because you, you love the place you want to be around [00:29:35] those people because for them, for teaching is not a full time job. You know, it’s, it’s [00:29:40] part time. It’s what you do because you love doing it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: So for them, it didn’t [00:29:45] matter if they did it or not. They were there because we worked as [00:29:50] a team and it was fun. It was a lot of fun. And I think now we [00:29:55] have that again. And I started Phoenix actually because of a few [00:30:00] of my, uh, delegates who I taught who were still preparing for their aura. When [00:30:05] I left, They tried to book a course at my old work, and then they [00:30:10] were like, oh, she’s left. So they contacted me. They were like, so where are [00:30:15] we supposed to go now? They were like, you must start your own. You have to. [00:30:20]

Payman Langroudi: And so were you kind of profitable from day one?

Anita Pradan: Our first course was [00:30:25] surprisingly so. I invested very, very little. To be honest. [00:30:30] It just generated its own money. Um, so yeah, [00:30:35] it was quite profitable. I didn’t expect that. And it [00:30:40] was quite, quite an amazing start, like, because obviously it was Covid started in the middle of Covid. [00:30:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: So everything was online and we had to think of ways we’re going [00:30:50] to maintain the social distancing. And at that time, all our courses were [00:30:55] in person and quite close. Like, you know, if there was a demonstration, everyone was [00:31:00] gathering around in small groups and looking at the instructor, but then we’re like, that’s not [00:31:05] going to work now. So we had cameras projecting on the screen. And [00:31:10] I think now everyone’s taken that on, obviously. So we could deliver our [00:31:15] courses remotely as well. And we were the first ones to do that. Um, [00:31:20] out of necessity. Yeah. Yeah. But it was an interesting start and [00:31:25] it took a lot of effort and very fortunately, uh, very [00:31:30] soon after I was offered a job at the College of Medicine and Dentistry [00:31:35] in Birmingham, which is a part of Ulster University. Uh, huh. Um, [00:31:40] so I, I went up there actually to attend a course myself.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: And [00:31:45] you know Professor Raj Ryan.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Great guy.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. So he’s my dad’s friend and he was [00:31:50] teaching on that course and he saw my work. He was like, has your dad ever seen [00:31:55] your work? Honestly, he hasn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Your dental work.

Anita Pradan: My dental work. [00:32:00] So I said, no, he hasn’t. He was like, he should. And he was quite happy with, [00:32:05] you know, with the work that I was doing. And he knew that I was teaching courses. [00:32:10] So he introduced me to the dean at the time, and he offered [00:32:15] me the job the same day.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the reason you’re sitting here right now is [00:32:20] because that first time I met you. Yeah. I thought, who is this sort of can do person? [00:32:25] You know, like, I mean, the story’s becoming clear [00:32:30] now, but would you would you put it down to, I mean, this, this sort of burning [00:32:35] sort of I don’t know if the words ambition. I don’t know what the word [00:32:40] is, but I, I execution.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because it’s not easy. [00:32:45] It’s not easy in another country doing something like this. Um, education’s [00:32:50] famously difficult. It’s very famously difficult business in dentistry. A lot of competition [00:32:55] people, you know, don’t want to leave their homes and stuff.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. It is a [00:33:00] very difficult.

Payman Langroudi: When did you become this person? Were you this? Were you like no. 12 year old? No, no, [00:33:05] I wasn’t.

Anita Pradan: I wasn’t at all. I was I was very privileged, [00:33:10] I must say, because my my father did very, very well. He was. [00:33:15] So he’s from Nepal and he’s a maxillofacial surgeon.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Anita Pradan: Yeah. So [00:33:20] he did his fellowship here, Royal College. And he had a very, [00:33:25] very amazing practice in Nepal treating diplomats. [00:33:30] He was a, you know, dentist to the royal family and he was [00:33:35] in the army. So I had a really good childhood. Um, and to be [00:33:40] honest, in the beginning, I thought, I’m going to be a dentist. And somewhere along the way I was like, [00:33:45] no, this is not for me. But then my dad, well, I joined dentistry [00:33:50] because of him. And then I thought, this is going to be easy for me, you know, because he’s a dentist [00:33:55] and I’ll be a dentist, so I’m just going to inherit everything. That’s not true.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not how it works.

Anita Pradan: No, [00:34:00] that’s not how it works. It’s very different. But no, I wasn’t like [00:34:05] this. I was quite laid back. And, um, I didn’t really I [00:34:10] think I did go through a lot of hard times at one point [00:34:15] in my personal life. And after that I just became [00:34:20] a different person. I just woke up one day and I was like.

Payman Langroudi: Not [00:34:25] necessarily.

Anita Pradan: Not necessarily, but that really changed me and [00:34:30] that I literally, without exaggeration, I woke up [00:34:35] one day and I said, I’m going to do this.

Payman Langroudi: How interesting. Because, look, we all know children of [00:34:40] successful people can go in many directions.

Anita Pradan: Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: 100%. [00:34:45] I’m thinking about friends of mine. Your brother’s one of them. I mean, it’s a very [00:34:50] successful parents. One of them. Very successful, ambitious guy. The other one? Not [00:34:55] at all. No.

Anita Pradan: You’re definitely is not inherited.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: And just because [00:35:00] your father is, doesn’t mean you are going.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes you almost like because your father is you’re not [00:35:05] going because you’ve had everything handed to you or whatever it is, you know. So you made that [00:35:10] if you remember the day you flipped.

Anita Pradan: I remember it, I remember it very clearly [00:35:15] getting up out of bed because I was feeling sorry for myself, you [00:35:20] know, for months, months. And I was thinking, I’m not going to do anything with my life. [00:35:25] And one day I woke up and I thought to myself, no, I am [00:35:30] going to do something with my life.

Payman Langroudi: Yes.

Anita Pradan: To be honest, like, you know, [00:35:35] when I, when I was applying for university here, so I went to, um, I did my A-levels in London, [00:35:40] so I applied to many universities and my final choice, [00:35:45] which was not Dental was environmental science. So my thought was that [00:35:50] I really want to do something which will impact a lot of people, potentially [00:35:55] the world. But yeah, that was my that was my thought [00:36:00] when I was applying for my university. And then [00:36:05] I just went down the dentistry path and I felt like, okay, this is what I’m going to do. Um, [00:36:10] but that one day, I think it changed me as a person. [00:36:15] And I just, I, I was so different after that [00:36:20] day and anything that came my way without exaggeration, I applied maybe [00:36:25] after Ori, I still have those emails for maybe a thousand [00:36:30] jobs.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Anita Pradan: So many. I got interviews [00:36:35] at three places. So one was a practice in Southend on Sea. One [00:36:40] was a hospital in Edinburgh for a dental show [00:36:45] and one was this teaching job. To be honest, I wanted all of them and I thought, [00:36:50] can I juggle all of them? And the answer is no. So I took the, [00:36:55] the the private, the practice, and I took the teaching job only because Edinburgh [00:37:00] was really far. But out of 200 applicants, I got that job and [00:37:05] there were six, six places and I got the job and I was. I was so [00:37:10] determined after that day that whatever I’m going to do, I’m going to do to the best of [00:37:15] my ability.

Payman Langroudi: You know. Anthony Robbins talks about this, that the moment [00:37:20] of change is a moment. Sometimes it’s ten years thinking [00:37:25] about that. Like, I don’t know, they say you want to give up cigarettes. The last cigarette you have takes [00:37:30] two minutes. Yeah. But sometimes mentally, it takes ten years to prepare for that moment. [00:37:35] Yeah.

Anita Pradan: It’s surprising.

Payman Langroudi: It’s kind of interesting idea.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. I thought of that as well, because [00:37:40] for so long, like months and months, I was wallowing [00:37:45] in sadness. And then there was that one day I so clearly remember [00:37:50] that day I just got up and I was like, that’s the [00:37:55] end of that. And I’m going to pass this exam in this next one, which I’m giving. So [00:38:00] my mom had already booked the exam for me and there was a month left. So I prepared for part [00:38:05] 2 in 1 month. And when I went for the exam, I did brilliantly. [00:38:10] You know, I was so determined.

Payman Langroudi: He said part two is [00:38:15] the more hands on piece. So do you teach both the hands on part and the, um, [00:38:20] theory part? Yes. So where do you do the hands on? Do you have a facility?

Anita Pradan: We, [00:38:25] uh, right now we hire a dense play.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry.

Anita Pradan: Yes. [00:38:30] In Surrey. It’s just like 20 minutes from where I live, and it’s brilliant. [00:38:35]

Payman Langroudi: How many phantom heads have they got?

Anita Pradan: They have eight. So we have small group teaching. Um, [00:38:40] but it’s a wonderful space to learn. And I really believe in, you [00:38:45] know, the environment in which you learn. It does make a very big impact. It’s so open [00:38:50] and spacious and, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Cool and clean.

Anita Pradan: And beautifully [00:38:55] maintained. And, you know, everyone’s so welcoming. And I think that’s very important when you’re [00:39:00] doing a course.

Payman Langroudi: Have you been to that new Bupa teaching?

Anita Pradan: Oh yes I have.

Payman Langroudi: We saw each other. [00:39:05] We saw each other there. Yes.

Anita Pradan: That was that was amazing.

Payman Langroudi: That was interesting. Yes. What they’ve done [00:39:10] with that. Yeah. I was I’ll tell you the truth. I was a bit surprised at how interesting that was. You know, I really [00:39:15] like that space. It was bloody good. It blew my socks off. Yeah yeah yeah, yeah.

Anita Pradan: You do brilliant [00:39:20] things in there.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. But you’re right. I was talking to Richard Porter about this as well, you know Aspire Academy. [00:39:25] Yeah. He’s just opened this brand new place. And it’s funny though, [00:39:30] you know, anytime anyone opens a brand new place, you know, it costs you could you could tell he spent money [00:39:35] on this place and you see it sometimes with dental practices, right? There’s a regular [00:39:40] dental practice. Then the guy just does it up. Yes. Yeah. And the cost is huge. But, you [00:39:45] know, on the day one, after you do it up, it’s still your own patience. Yeah, like the money [00:39:50] coming in is nowhere near how much went out? Yeah. No different to the day before you did that? Yeah. Eventually, [00:39:55] I guess. Eventually it works. But his he’s got this whole thing about, um, [00:40:00] Socrates and Plato and the way that learning works best and the environment [00:40:05] and, and, and so on. It’s an interesting sort of notion. Right. [00:40:10] Yeah. Tell me about what typically the person [00:40:15] has to do on the hands on part.

Anita Pradan: In the hands on part. It’s um [00:40:20] cavity preparations.

Payman Langroudi: What does the mods or whatever.

Anita Pradan: Yeah, yeah. Last [00:40:25] ones, class twos, you know, amalgam and composite.

Payman Langroudi: How, how, how anal.

Payman Langroudi: Are they about that. Is it [00:40:30] like very. Oh really. Like all the rounded sort of line angle.

Anita Pradan: Yes, exactly. [00:40:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yes.

Anita Pradan: So we followed the, the Gdc’s consortium, the guidelines [00:40:40] which they have given on the website. Um, and that’s what we follow and it’s [00:40:45] quite very specific. And that’s I think that’s why it is difficult. [00:40:50] And obviously there’s crown preps, there’s root canal, but root canal, very basic root [00:40:55] canal. Um, you know, things like impressions and temporary crowns and things like [00:41:00] that. Yeah. So how do you do.

Payman Langroudi: A temporary crown on a, on a phantom head? Is it doable? Yeah. [00:41:05] It’s not all stick together and no.

Anita Pradan: The [00:41:10] only thing I find it’s more difficult than on a patient, to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. No, [00:41:15] I can imagine.

Anita Pradan: Because the patient’s gums are attached. Yeah. So there’s no space. Right. But on the [00:41:20] phantom head there’s no attachment. So all the material just goes in between.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. [00:41:25]

Anita Pradan: So when you have to take it out, it’s just like gooey.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: It’s all gone everywhere. [00:41:30] Yeah. So it’s slightly more difficult, but yeah. Doable.

Payman Langroudi: So which parts of the [00:41:35] course do you personally teach?

Anita Pradan: I teach the, the mannequin the hands on.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really?

Anita Pradan: Yeah. [00:41:40] I’ve always been hands on. I think that’s why I did dentistry, to be honest, because [00:41:45] of the hands on part. Um, that’s always quite artistic.

Payman Langroudi: So did [00:41:50] you go off and train more or read more or whatever you’d never taught before? Now you’re teaching. Yes. [00:41:55] Wow. What was that process?

Anita Pradan: So when I taught [00:42:00] at my the old place where I used to work. So the.

Payman Langroudi: Did you [00:42:05] attend lots of classes? Eventually learn.

Anita Pradan: So the the way that the training worked. [00:42:10] So we had, I had an interview in which I had to perform tasks. Um, one of [00:42:15] them was a Gold Crown prep and uh, the, the trainer, the lead trainer [00:42:20] there was very happy with my work. And I was on the train back [00:42:25] after the interview and they offered me the job, but the criteria was that I would [00:42:30] first be simultaneously preparing as the trainer was [00:42:35] delivering the classes and perfect my skills as well. And [00:42:40] usually they used to take like around six months before you can independently [00:42:45] teach.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: But I took around three weeks.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Anita Pradan: Yeah, but [00:42:50] it was intense. You know, you had to, like, do the preparations every day and, [00:42:55] you know, get it perfect. Um, up to the standard beyond the standard of the exam. [00:43:00] Because when I passed, I thought I was good. Now I look back on those preps [00:43:05] and I think, oh my God, no.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think it’s [00:43:10] fit for purpose? The exam?

Anita Pradan: Not really. No.

Payman Langroudi: Not yet. What [00:43:15] happens that people get good at passing the exam. But they’re not. The exam itself isn’t doesn’t make you a good [00:43:20] dentist.

Anita Pradan: Not at all. I think there are aspects which are really brilliant. [00:43:25] Um, like for the hands on, I think the only part which is really [00:43:30] helpful is the Crown preps because Crown preps are Crown preps, right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Um, but [00:43:35] the rest is, is very textbook, you know, on your patient, [00:43:40] you’re going with the caries and how to diagnose caries.

Payman Langroudi: Can you [00:43:45] old school, black, black classification, that sort of thing.

Anita Pradan: But that doesn’t help us much with [00:43:50] the patients because you’re not looking at radiographs, you’re not looking at the patient [00:43:55] a real patient. You’re not, you know, modifying your cavity design according to [00:44:00] what you see in the mouth. All that’s not there. So I don’t think it’s very [00:44:05] useful in that way. But of course it does reinforce your principles [00:44:10] and you know, the basics of dentistry. But I think what’s useful is [00:44:15] treatment planning.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Because to be honest, I studied at a very [00:44:20] good university in India, Manipal University, and we did do treatment planning, but [00:44:25] not in this way. I mean, not in a very realistic way. I think the exam is quite [00:44:30] close to what you would do in a clinical practice, a very ideal treatment planning. But I [00:44:35] think it’s good practice because, you know, if you can do a good treatment planning, you can deliver good treatment [00:44:40] without a plan. I don’t.

Anita Pradan: Think.

Anita Pradan: You can really.

Anita Pradan: Do.

Payman Langroudi: Much. Huge isn’t.

Payman Langroudi: It?

Anita Pradan: So I think it does [00:44:45] help overseas clinicians kind of gauge what they’re going to get into when they come here. [00:44:50] But there is a very big gap between passing the exam and actually [00:44:55] working on patients here. It’s huge still.

Payman Langroudi: So I’d [00:45:00] expect that the main sort of jobs for overseas, [00:45:05] the big the big thing is corporates. Mhm. Is that correct? Yes. Because they need they constantly need [00:45:10] more and more people. Yeah. So do you have a relationship with it or is that is that why you were at Bupa that day. [00:45:15]

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: For instance.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Bupa. And of course, because we were going to deliver [00:45:20] some of their training as well.

Payman Langroudi: And who are we training.

Anita Pradan: Are we training [00:45:25] and also other training because we do other courses as well. Not just oh yeah [00:45:30] we do.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your second biggest course LDS. The third biggest course.

Anita Pradan: Therapist. [00:45:35] Therapist.

Anita Pradan: Yes. Therapist. Refresher course. That’s big as well. And now we are [00:45:40] starting like we already have like return to practice or back to practice courses for dentists.

Payman Langroudi: Nothing to do with [00:45:45] worry at all. Nothing to do with overseas.

Anita Pradan: No. And then.

Anita Pradan: We have, uh, we have, [00:45:50] um, recently done a course with Austin for implants as well. And we have [00:45:55] another one coming separate. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, excellent.

Anita Pradan: So we are doing more now like implants. [00:46:00] Uh, prosthodontics. So all that is coming up in the next few [00:46:05] months.

Payman Langroudi: And a year course. Is that, is that the final yes. Destination. [00:46:10]

Anita Pradan: Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: It should be, you know, like, because it’s if you sell someone [00:46:15] an implant course, it’s a bit like dentistry, you know, with a patient, it’s a game of trust [00:46:20] more than anything else.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And you people [00:46:25] tell me, oh, teeth whitening. I have not able to sell it at £500 or whatever. [00:46:30] Yeah. And I just whenever someone says that to me, I just think, well, you don’t understand. Dentistry [00:46:35] is a game of trust.

Anita Pradan: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: You know, because they’re very happily selling crowns for £1,000. [00:46:40] Yeah, but can’t sell teeth whitening for £500. It’s a crazy story, but it’s a [00:46:45] game of trust.

Anita Pradan: It is.

Payman Langroudi: And if you if someone trusts you enough to pay you on how much you charge [00:46:50] for your day course, like, I don’t know, £900 for a day course. Yeah. It’s. [00:46:55] Interestingly, they might trust you enough to pay you £900 a day times 12.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: People [00:47:00] tell me this about raising cash as well. Like if you’re borrowing £1 million from an investor, he [00:47:05] still has to trust you.

Anita Pradan: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: To £1 million. Yes. It’s like if he’s going to trust you, borrow £10 [00:47:10] million instead of 1 million. Yeah. Yeah. Because the trust.

Anita Pradan: Question. Yeah.

Anita Pradan: It is it is a [00:47:15] trust question. Like right now we had these promotions on our courses and it just showed that, [00:47:20] you know, we, we are trusted because we, we had a package which [00:47:25] will give them all the, our comprehensive courses, but also the mock exams, [00:47:30] which they may take now or may take next year, but they’ve bought it in advance, [00:47:35] like the whole package. I don’t know if you didn’t trust someone.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anita Pradan: You’re [00:47:40] right.

Anita Pradan: You wouldn’t really buy the whole package. You’d say. You know, I’ll buy the comprehensive for now and see how it [00:47:45] goes. And buy the, you know, the mocks later. But. But they have, you know. And then we do [00:47:50] have these therapist courses as well. And we do have other providers for them. And our [00:47:55] courses, to be honest, are more expensive than others. But we do provide a lot, a lot [00:48:00] in that course. It’s wonderful. It’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Course you provide socials as well.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. [00:48:05]

Payman Langroudi: You do what? Dinners and.

Anita Pradan: Things. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, cool.

Anita Pradan: So I think when [00:48:10] you see that, you know, that, you know, people do trust you. And these people, these [00:48:15] delegates have come to us before, say maybe for training.

Anita Pradan: And then yeah. [00:48:20]

Anita Pradan: Then they want to do further training with us. And if we are working in partnership with someone, [00:48:25] then they are more than happy to go on that course because they trust us to, [00:48:30] you know, give them the right guidance. And we we work in partnership with other academies [00:48:35] as well, which is great.

Payman Langroudi: Which ones?

Anita Pradan: Um, for ortho Ceph tactics. [00:48:40]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Anita Pradan: Yes. And I did my ortho from there. So I can say with.

Payman Langroudi: Lots [00:48:45] of good things about.

Payman Langroudi: Them.

Anita Pradan: Very very amazing. Absolutely mind boggling. Yes. [00:48:50] Because when I, I really loved ortho from like many, [00:48:55] many years and I did a lot of ortho, uh, you know, recall appointments for my orthodontists [00:49:00] in Nepal. So I had done a lot already. And I, I really liked it. I [00:49:05] just didn’t get an opportunity to do it myself.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: And when I came here, [00:49:10] um, so tactics. Raj Jabbal. He’s my he’s my batchmate [00:49:15] from university.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Anita Pradan: We’re from the same batch. So he told [00:49:20] me, come and do the course. I was like, yeah, definitely. And he’s absolutely amazing. And [00:49:25] Ines oh my God, when you go for the course, it’s just so now we can say with [00:49:30] confidence that. Yes, definitely. You know, it’s not just because Raj is my friend, but because [00:49:35] the course is absolutely brilliant. And similarly, you know, if we have other [00:49:40] partners, then we refer to them as well. So and if they [00:49:45] have someone giving a worry or any of our courses, then they refer to us as well. So I [00:49:50] think it’s like, you know, nice to have that partnership with, you know, academies and trainers who are already [00:49:55] doing the courses and doing a brilliant job.

Payman Langroudi: No point reinventing.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:50:00] partnership with ace. Yeah. You know.

Payman Langroudi: Them. Yes I know.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s been wonderful. It’s been a wonderful thing [00:50:05] for us to have that partnership. Yeah. I hope you feel the same about us as we do. But [00:50:10] that’s in the education in the education part. And I’ve definitely spent [00:50:15] a lot of time with Chris Hau and people. And his course is set up quick, [00:50:20] you know, and people love, love going there.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:50:25] but the year course thing is a very interesting thing in that you’re telling me. And [00:50:30] I totally believe you. People. People who do aren’t the finished product.

Anita Pradan: No. [00:50:35] And?

Payman Langroudi: And depends what you’re calling the finished product. Yeah. Because maybe, maybe, you know, [00:50:40] you’ve come from a good university, a great university in India. Maybe I want to come and I want to work private [00:50:45] industry. I don’t want to work in the NHS.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So to turn someone from that not finished product to a [00:50:50] finished product takes longer than a couple of days a week, a month. It [00:50:55] takes longer.

Anita Pradan: And I think because we’ve worked with like seen them [00:51:00] before and because I studied abroad and, you know, I’ve worked abroad the [00:51:05] way we do things here and there, it’s very different. And the [00:51:10] understanding like people have of the system here is, is not very clear. [00:51:15] You know, they think that they can come and do dentistry the way they used to in their [00:51:20] home countries, but it’s not really true. So I think these courses more than like some, [00:51:25] some of them might have done a masters like we have someone now who, who’s going [00:51:30] to join this? Like it’s a two day implant course. So it’s basics, but he [00:51:35] wants to join it nevertheless because he’s done his implant training in India. But he [00:51:40] wants to see like, you know, is there a difference when he practices here? And that’s quite important. And [00:51:45] sometimes we have such brilliant courses here from so many providers. But [00:51:50] I think for overseas clinicians, sometimes they’re not at that level yet. [00:51:55] And they may not, you know, gain as much from those courses. [00:52:00] So our courses are going to be kind of bridging courses, you know, not so advanced that, [00:52:05] you know, they don’t get the most out of it, um, but good enough so that they can [00:52:10] implement it clinically almost immediately. And then once they have done that, we definitely [00:52:15] would like them to go on, you know, more advanced courses, um, to, you know, [00:52:20] get their skills to even higher level.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your, what’s your level of ambition for, [00:52:25] for work.

Anita Pradan: Well, at the moment [00:52:30] my whole, whole focus is on Phoenix. But, [00:52:35] uh.

Anita Pradan: But.

Payman Langroudi: For instance, might you open a dental practice chain?

Anita Pradan: I [00:52:40] don’t know what a chain.

Payman Langroudi: Chain is a big.

Payman Langroudi: Word, but. Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Yeah, I [00:52:45] think so.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. I, I have ventured into it a couple of times.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Have [00:52:50] you.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. But I just had to give up because it was with, with [00:52:55] another like on one occasion with two other partners and one occasion with another [00:53:00] partner. But I think it’s maybe the timing wasn’t [00:53:05] right the first time. And the second time is just not the right person. So I think it [00:53:10] taught me a lot though, because I think when you when you go through some struggles, you [00:53:15] learn what not to do the next time.

Payman Langroudi: You haven’t got partners in Phoenix.

Anita Pradan: No.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:53:20] interesting the question of partners here because for instance, I couldn’t do anything without partners. I’m [00:53:25] too scared. I don’t scared is not the word. I’ve got too many blind [00:53:30] spots of my own. And you could say, hey, hire people for those blind spots. [00:53:35] But somehow, for me, I would not do any business on my own. I would always [00:53:40] want someone. Mhm. But sounds like you’re the opposite. Sounds like you want to be.

Anita Pradan: It’s [00:53:45] not.

Payman Langroudi: Well, well.

Payman Langroudi: Listen.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe you just haven’t found the right.

Anita Pradan: Partner. Yeah, I haven’t found the right partner. [00:53:50] Maybe that’s.

Anita Pradan: That is the that is the.

Payman Langroudi: But do you wish you had a partner in Phoenix?

Anita Pradan: I do, I.

Anita Pradan: Do.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:53:55] it’s lonely, isn’t.

Anita Pradan: It? It’s very lonely.

Payman Langroudi: When stuff goes wrong. It’s really lonely.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. And you know, you.

Anita Pradan: Need someone [00:54:00] to bounce ideas off and, you know, to grow bigger. You do need that person. You [00:54:05] know, some extra brains to support you. I mean, your brain might be good, but not that good, you [00:54:10] know? And then you’re good at something, but you’re not good at everything.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: And I think that’s [00:54:15] where I do like, I do wish I had a partner, but I just haven’t found the right person. [00:54:20] And, um. Yeah, but for the practices, I think, yeah, [00:54:25] definitely. I want to have my own practice. Um, especially.

Payman Langroudi: Have you got appetite [00:54:30] for it? I mean, why, why is it you’re not a practising dentist now is it because you’re too busy or is it time. [00:54:35]

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You’re too busy.

Anita Pradan: Because right now. So we started [00:54:40] obviously Phoenix just in, in the UK online. And then we started doing face [00:54:45] to face classes. And then we started, you know, growing the type of courses that we [00:54:50] have and it’s just kept growing, which is great. And then we have now [00:54:55] overseas courses. So I think to Turkey. Yeah, Turkey. We just came back from [00:55:00] Turkey last month. Uh, we have another collaboration in Malaysia and [00:55:05] we are providing our training through Smile Academy in [00:55:10] India.

Payman Langroudi: Through what gin and.

Anita Pradan: Kirsch? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: In India, in India, I [00:55:15] love.

Anita Pradan: That. So it’s a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Those [00:55:20] two are such collaborators. Yes, I really take my hat off to them in that sense. They constantly [00:55:25] collaborating with loads and loads and loads of different people. Yeah, and some people are so the opposite, you [00:55:30] know, they, they want to keep everything to themselves and.

Anita Pradan: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Um, like for [00:55:35] instance, you could do this year course, day after tomorrow.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: If you wanted.

Anita Pradan: To. [00:55:40] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Because you could have different people teaching it.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: End of story. Yeah. Or you [00:55:45] could say, I want to teach most of it myself.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then it will take a lot longer [00:55:50] for it to happen. Do you think? Yeah, definitely. That first type.

Anita Pradan: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. There’s just this. Want [00:55:55] stuff to happen.

Anita Pradan: It happened so quickly.

Anita Pradan: You know, they asked me, do you want can you do the course [00:56:00] in India for us? I was like, yeah, we can. I think it was like in a week.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: It [00:56:05] was a week.

Anita Pradan: It was, it was it was being marketed. We were getting delegates [00:56:10] on board. It happened really quick. We’re on our fourth cohort, fourth. [00:56:15] It’s quite a lot in such a short I think it’s not even been a year now. So it’s really [00:56:20] quick and I do work with them one day a week as their clinical lead for overseas [00:56:25] clinicians.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well, the existing ones in practices, in [00:56:30] their practices.

Anita Pradan: In their practices.

Payman Langroudi: How interesting. So tell me in [00:56:35] your week, do you get questions from that lot?

Anita Pradan: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: What is it like? What kind [00:56:40] of question are we talking?

Anita Pradan: Most of the questions are like basically navigating the NHS [00:56:45] system. And a lot of the clinicians are quite young, so [00:56:50] they might have problems in the treatment. Like, you know, they send me radiographs to see [00:56:55] and do the treatment plan with them. I have gone to the practice [00:57:00] and supported some, uh, some clinicians as well, which was quite fun. [00:57:05] So, so yeah, it’s an interesting role, but, uh, [00:57:10] yeah, but it’s not just dentists, it’s therapists and hygienists [00:57:15] as well who came from that route.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so how much [00:57:20] of your day is spent on each aspect of your life? Like what’s your. What does your [00:57:25] week look like? What happens on a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.

Anita Pradan: Mondays I work for Jen and [00:57:30] smile. Yeah.

Anita Pradan: All day.

Payman Langroudi: From home.

Anita Pradan: No. At Watford.

Payman Langroudi: At [00:57:35] one of the practices.

Anita Pradan: Yes. So from.

Anita Pradan: The headquarters.

Anita Pradan: Watford. Yeah yeah yeah.

Anita Pradan: And then [00:57:40] Tuesday, usually on Tuesdays and Wednesdays I teach in Birmingham.

Payman Langroudi: At [00:57:45] a different institution.

Anita Pradan: Yes, in the College of Medicine and Dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Oh the one.

Payman Langroudi: Who said [00:57:50] yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anita Pradan: So on Monday I would travel to Birmingham right after.

Anita Pradan: Every week.

Anita Pradan: Every week, Wednesday, [00:57:55] Tuesday, Wednesday I’m there and Thursday I’d like [00:58:00] Wednesday I’d come back and Thursday usually we have a three day course. [00:58:05] So Thursday, Friday and Saturday at Dental fly. Yeah. Our [00:58:10] own courses. If we don’t have a three day course, we normally have a Saturday Sunday course.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:58:15]

Payman Langroudi: So.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s it.

Anita Pradan: That’s the rest of the days [00:58:20] I do admin. Obviously there’s a lot of admin to do. Yeah. So I still. [00:58:25]

Anita Pradan: Have to.

Payman Langroudi: Have to do the Birmingham piece.

Anita Pradan: I absolutely love that. I [00:58:30] love teaching in large groups. And I think you can only have it at a university. So [00:58:35] I teach like, uh, right now, the current cohort was like 30. [00:58:40] So I teach 30 per day. I have taught in [00:58:45] a week 100 as well. So 100 students in a, in three days. [00:58:50] So I think.

Anita Pradan: Is.

Payman Langroudi: That as well.

Anita Pradan: It’s restorative, but it [00:58:55] has all aspects as well. So I cover all of Ora and some restorative and endo as well.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:59:00] percentage of your delegates are India. Pakistan.

Anita Pradan: Oh very [00:59:05] very massive.

Payman Langroudi: 99.

Anita Pradan: Not 90 maybe. 80. [00:59:10]

Anita Pradan: 80. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And the rest from all over.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so what reflections [00:59:15] have you got about like for instance, different universe. What’s what’s been surprisingly good. Like [00:59:20] which country?

Anita Pradan: You won’t believe it. Turkey.

Payman Langroudi: Turkey provides good dentists. [00:59:25] Surprisingly good.

Anita Pradan: Dentists. Yes. Their work.

Anita Pradan: Is. It’s actually really good. [00:59:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: The the work that they produce is really good. I think where [00:59:35] they are a bit not that great is communication.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Anita Pradan: But [00:59:40] the dentist, the Turkish dentist whose English is good, they are absolutely [00:59:45] brilliant. You know, because when we started this collaboration with Turkey, I [00:59:50] thought, are we going to have turkey, turkey teeth? But no, it’s not. [00:59:55]

Payman Langroudi: You know, Gallup Grill, my hero, my hero in dentistry, Gallup Grill.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: He’s Turkish. [01:00:00]

Payman Langroudi: He’s Turkish.

Payman Langroudi: One of the best dentists in the whole wide world. You know, it’s like anywhere, right? You get [01:00:05] good and bad everywhere, right?

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: But they are generally quite good. And I think, um, [01:00:10] Dentists from Pakistan have good, uh, very [01:00:15] surgical skills.

Payman Langroudi: Is that right?

Anita Pradan: Surgical skills. And even like in terms of communication, [01:00:20] if you compared India and Pakistan, dentists from Pakistan have better communication [01:00:25] skills.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Which I found quite amazing.

Payman Langroudi: And do you find [01:00:30] particular universities provide better than graduates than others?

Anita Pradan: Yes, [01:00:35] definitely.

Anita Pradan: Definitely. Some universities are absolutely brilliant, like, uh, delegates [01:00:40] from Nepal. Um, they are really good [01:00:45] because, you know, I though I spent, I spent some time in [01:00:50] Nepal and my, my father, he is a shareholder and founder [01:00:55] of some of the dental colleges there. So I got the opportunity to go and visit [01:01:00] the colleges and, you know, have a look at their teaching styles. And, and also we [01:01:05] did mentoring for some of the final year students at our practice in Nepal are [01:01:10] really good. I was quite amazed, like the communication skills [01:01:15] really good. Even their skills in dentistry, the understanding, really, really [01:01:20] good foundation.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting the cultural differences, right? Because I’m from Iran that [01:01:25] dentists in Iran, some of the most successful people in society.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It [01:01:30] just happens to be the.

Payman Langroudi: Way.

Payman Langroudi: The way Iran set up.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: People want specialists [01:01:35] as well like this for years. But people want to see specialists. Yeah. And [01:01:40] then they make up specialities of their own, you know, like he’s composite bonding specialist or [01:01:45] whatever, whatever it might be. Um, so you know what I mean? Like it’s not [01:01:50] just about, hey, the GDP of that country. It’s about the culture, the dental culture [01:01:55] in that country. Plus here we’ve got the NHS. No, no, not no. [01:02:00] A lot of the population aren’t saving for their teeth at all.

Anita Pradan: No.

Payman Langroudi: Like they don’t expect [01:02:05] to spend a dollar on their teeth.

Anita Pradan: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: And so, you know, Britain might be the fifth richest country [01:02:10] in the world or.

Payman Langroudi: A.

Payman Langroudi: Bit down there, sixth richest country in the world. And yet because [01:02:15] of that NHS system, you know, dentistry is not where it could have been.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Where it could have been. [01:02:20] Definitely. Yeah. I was quite surprised because when I was preparing for [01:02:25] my Ori, I was working as a dental nurse and I was [01:02:30] quite disappointed, you know, with especially I was in, in [01:02:35] Kent, um, and I did a lot of nursing with a lot of the practices there. And [01:02:40] I was really disappointed that I couldn’t see like great dentistry. And I [01:02:45] was very young at that time. And I was, I was thinking maybe I can learn a lot while I’m nursing, but [01:02:50] it was quite disappointing. Um, because obviously all that time [01:02:55] I’d been seeing my, my father work and I learned so much from [01:03:00] him, um, more during, I think during my b.d.s days [01:03:05] than after. But I always remembered even the smallest things that he said. [01:03:10] I would, you know, keep that in mind and implement them. And that made a [01:03:15] lot of difference.

Payman Langroudi: Is there a bit of you that has to get out of the shadow of your father?

Anita Pradan: There was [01:03:20] in the beginning, you know, I thought things as I told you, I thought things are going to be so easy for me.

Payman Langroudi: No. [01:03:25] But the idea that, you know, I’m sure he’s, like, very respected. And everywhere he goes, he’s like, yeah, [01:03:30] venerated. If you like the. I don’t know what that even means, but you know what I [01:03:35] mean? People respect him a lot.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. They do.

Payman Langroudi: And then and then you have to make [01:03:40] your own way out of that, right? Because you could be the daughter of him. But [01:03:45] what I’ve noticed is people like that hate being called the daughter of him. They want to [01:03:50] be known for themselves. Right.

Anita Pradan: To be honest.

Anita Pradan: I never.

Anita Pradan: I.

Anita Pradan: Think I never [01:03:55] thought of it like that. And I was quite happy to be his daughter, of course, and [01:04:00] be known as his daughter. But I think Uh, when he when [01:04:05] I started practising in Nepal, he had already moved here. Um, [01:04:10] so.

Payman Langroudi: Did.

Payman Langroudi: He do.

Anita Pradan: He did the, [01:04:15] the older version of the LDS, but he just walked [01:04:20] into the exam and just destroyed it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: You know, he, he [01:04:25] said it wasn’t really much of an exam because he, he was doing his fellowship at that time. He’s [01:04:30] really brilliant, to be honest. He’s very brilliant. And I keep telling him, I wish I had your brain [01:04:35] and I wish I knew as much as you do. I would have done courses like no one [01:04:40] could touch. So I keep trying to push him to do some courses, [01:04:45] but he’s quite shy that way. He’s a brilliant clinician, and I think he did [01:04:50] a lot of, you know, charity work and did a lot for the country for Nepal. [01:04:55] And I think it’s quite inspiring because he he made a difference. And I [01:05:00] think that’s what inspired me to do something which would make some difference somewhere. [01:05:05] But yeah, but in terms of, uh, being in a shadow, I think [01:05:10] I never felt that way. And when I started practising in Nepal, I think people, [01:05:15] they came to me more than the other associates who I had, who were much [01:05:20] more qualified than me and experienced because of, of his name. [01:05:25] They were like, oh, okay, his daughter. So she must be as good. Um, so I [01:05:30] had to live up to that. And I think.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know if it’s like this in, in [01:05:35] Iran, the older you are, the better doctor you are.

Anita Pradan: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Do you have that as well?

Anita Pradan: Yes. Of course.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:05:40] not. That’s not the case here.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Here you get a 75 year old doctor. You think he’s [01:05:45] not. He’s not. He’s old timer. He’s not he’s not up with the newest stuff, which he isn’t a lot of times. Right. [01:05:50] But in Iran, literally it’s the older you are. And sometimes they keep on going. Yeah. You know they haven’t got the same [01:05:55] sort of pension at 65.

Anita Pradan: I know exactly.

Payman Langroudi: You see this 85 year old [01:06:00] guy like walk, walk into the guys like past it. Yeah. But [01:06:05] there it’s all about age.

Anita Pradan: Yes. You have the similar thing. Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Well, I [01:06:10] remember when I used to, when I saw my first patients, everyone was like, they [01:06:15] used to go out to reception. I used to do the check-up, book them in for the next appointment, and they’d [01:06:20] go out and be like, um, how old is she?

Anita Pradan: And, and.

Anita Pradan: I looked younger [01:06:25] than what I was. And that was not great for me. But I did have [01:06:30] that here as well. When I started in Southend on Sea, I remember my, my nurse, [01:06:35] who was also the receptionist, used to say that, oh, the patient, they looked happy inside, but outside they [01:06:40] were asking me how old you are and do you have any experience? I’m like, I’m not that young.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:06:45] a blessing in other ways, right?

Anita Pradan: Yeah, in other ways.

Anita Pradan: But I was like, [01:06:50] oh, I wished I looked a little bit older because I was like maybe 35 at that time. And [01:06:55] I was like, and they were like, has she completed her studies yet. Um, [01:07:00] but yeah, but it’s, it’s interesting, but my, my dad, although [01:07:05] it’s interesting because of what you said, like he’s, he’s 82. [01:07:10]

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Anita Pradan: But he is so [01:07:15] obsessed with everything. Like, you know, sometimes he comes and tells me, oh, did you hear about that recent [01:07:20] thing in dentistry? Like I’m going for that course next week. Um, and [01:07:25] I’m like, I haven’t heard of it and like, come let’s have a look and do you want to go with me? And he’s [01:07:30] like, does everything like, you know, whatever’s, you know, coming up, he [01:07:35] knows about it. He provides. Yeah, he did retire. He [01:07:40] retired three years ago. He had a retirement party.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Anita Pradan: Two months after that, [01:07:45] he was like, I can’t do this.

Anita Pradan: Because.

Payman Langroudi: He’d become the job. [01:07:50]

Anita Pradan: If you look at him, he’s like, he’s in his 60s. So he has too much energy. He’s [01:07:55] he’s just so. And he loves dentistry. You [01:08:00] can see he loves it. Obviously he still wants to go back to work. He doesn’t have to. But I [01:08:05] think until he can, he will.

Anita Pradan: And yeah, on this.

Payman Langroudi: On [01:08:10] this journey, what’s been the hardest day?

Anita Pradan: Um, the journey, [01:08:15] the journey.

Payman Langroudi: Of life. Well, the business.

Payman Langroudi: The business [01:08:20] journey.

Anita Pradan: The business journey.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Um, I think sustaining [01:08:25] it and keeping it alive.

Payman Langroudi: Is the hardest.

Payman Langroudi: Thing.

Anita Pradan: Is [01:08:30] the hardest thing. And to be motivated all the time to keep it [01:08:35] alive. Because obviously it’s a business and it has its ups and downs. And [01:08:40] I haven’t studied business. You know, it was an idea [01:08:45] that I thought I’m going to do for a while, and I don’t know how it’s going [01:08:50] to go and if it’s going to last and will I be able to sustain it?

Payman Langroudi: Did [01:08:55] you come to a point? I mean, I came in the early days many times, like [01:09:00] death experiences.

Anita Pradan: Many times.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Many times. [01:09:05] Oh my God.

Payman Langroudi: And we had we had the bank came in, we missed a payment to the [01:09:10] bank, which you must never do.

Payman Langroudi: Right?

Payman Langroudi: No, we missed the payment to the bank. And they [01:09:15] came around with these accountants who they were billing us for as well. It was all this [01:09:20] financial trouble. They said, these are turnaround accountants. These guys were fools. But anyway, we [01:09:25] had to pay those guys as well. And then um, I remember Dental showcase. [01:09:30] By the way, have you ever have you ever exhibited.

Anita Pradan: No.

Payman Langroudi: So Dental showcase when you were [01:09:35] small. Exhibiting Dental showcase is life and death anyway. Yeah, because it’s so expensive. [01:09:40] Yeah. Like last Dental, uh, dentistry show. We spent £80,000 [01:09:45] on our stand.

Anita Pradan: Oh, my.

Payman Langroudi: God. Stand hotel.

Payman Langroudi: Everything.

Payman Langroudi: Dinners, [01:09:50] whatever it was. Yeah, but mainly stand. Yeah. And when you’re smaller that okay, that number [01:09:55] could be 200 £0, right? But even £20,000 is a hell of a lot of money.

Anita Pradan: For a small company. [01:10:00] Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So you’re risking everything. And this particular Dental showcase, I was [01:10:05] literally it was life and death. Yeah. Because we’d spent everything just to get [01:10:10] there. These turnaround accountants were on our backs, and they were going to report back to the bank and say, [01:10:15] you know, is this business viable or should we shut it down? Should we pull the plug on this business? [01:10:20] And I remember the show opening and literally looking at my business partner [01:10:25] and saying this, we’ve got to decide. And based [01:10:30] on the sales on that day, and we had record sales that day, you [01:10:35] know, the agony and ecstasy as well. Like it’s so close to death. And then [01:10:40] record sales come in and they but based on that, we were, we were able to like, just keep going. [01:10:45] Yeah.

Anita Pradan: It’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: It’s madness man. So tell me about mistakes. [01:10:50] We like talking about mistakes. What comes to mind?

Anita Pradan: Well, [01:10:55] in my clinical career, sure.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s start.

Payman Langroudi: There.

Anita Pradan: So [01:11:00] in my clinical career, fortunately, I’ve been very [01:11:05] well supported. So I’ve not had like tremendous mistakes as such. [01:11:10] But one thing that comes to mind, because it was one of the first things I ever did on [01:11:15] a patient away from university. Yeah. Um, so it was my first week [01:11:20] working in my dad’s practice and I was already under in Nepal.

Anita Pradan: In [01:11:25] Nepal.

Anita Pradan: Under a lot of pressure because I had to live up to his name. So [01:11:30] I did a crown prep for a patient. The patient had a lot of gum recession, [01:11:35] bone recession, like, you know, very big embrasures. [01:11:40] And I.

Payman Langroudi: Got I.

Payman Langroudi: Got stuck. I [01:11:45] did gum. Was it that one of those very hard gum.

Anita Pradan: It was. [01:11:50] That was the only thing that was there. I asked my nurse to mix, uh, the impression [01:11:55] material. Give it to me in gum. Didn’t even think about it. [01:12:00] Put it in the mouth. Couldn’t take it out.

Payman Langroudi: And so what happened? You drilled it.

Anita Pradan: Off? Yes. [01:12:05] First of all, I tried, I tried, and then the patient was [01:12:10] like, you know, he’s salivating everywhere.

Payman Langroudi: And you were a new dentist.

Anita Pradan: I was a new dentist. [01:12:15] I was sweating, it was my own practice and I didn’t know what to do. There was no dad around. No, [01:12:20] there was no one else on that day.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, wow.

Anita Pradan: I was like, this is not coming out. I was like, I told my [01:12:25] nurse, I need to cut it off. Cutting off an impression. [01:12:30] Oh my God. I think that was the most traumatising experience [01:12:35] ever.

Payman Langroudi: You hear about it now, but at that point, you probably never heard of that idea. No. [01:12:40]

Anita Pradan: Not at all. I was like, it’s just an impression. You know, I’ve done the [01:12:45] hard part. I’ve done the local anaesthetic. I was so new. I’ve done the local anaesthetic. [01:12:50] It was amazing. I’ve done the crown prep. Looks good. You know, I’ve [01:12:55] done the opposing alginate. And now this was my final step. And oh my God. [01:13:00] I think that really stood out. Till [01:13:05] now, whenever I teach impressions, I always talk about it because in the exam they gave them [01:13:10] gum.

Payman Langroudi: Because that’s a complaint in the UK.

Anita Pradan: In the UK. [01:13:15]

Payman Langroudi: No complaints can break your heart sometimes.

Anita Pradan: Yeah [01:13:20] they can, but I haven’t had a complaint in the UK, maybe [01:13:25] because I’ve not done any real complicated stuff and not done that much, [01:13:30] to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, you know, some people are really good at keeping it within their scope. Some people are [01:13:35] really bad at keeping it within their scope. And it’s a funny thing because you’ve got to do everything for the first [01:13:40] time in your life.

Anita Pradan: You have.

Payman Langroudi: To. So you know, your scope can’t just stick to what [01:13:45] you’ve done before. You can’t.

Anita Pradan: Yes, I think I think I learned a lot from my dad as well because he [01:13:50] worked. Obviously, he’s worked in the NHS for over 40 years, and the [01:13:55] main thing is to recognise the patients and how they, [01:14:00] you know, how they are as people, their personalities, which not always [01:14:05] shines through, but still to engage.

Payman Langroudi: Helps a lot with that.

Anita Pradan: Yes. To gauge as [01:14:10] much as possible and not to be pressured to do [01:14:15] treatment. You’re not, you know, very confident delivering. And [01:14:20] I think that that I always keep in mind because some, you know, sometimes you have that patient [01:14:25] do the extraction, you know, it’s fine. Uh, you know, you’re like, no, it’s I did have [01:14:30] a patient like that once full mouth extraction. He was quite, [01:14:35] um, quite a tall man and quite heavy built. And [01:14:40] to be honest, like he had been to that practice, um, for years, [01:14:45] but they couldn’t deliver all the treatment on site because he [01:14:50] was quite anxious. He came to me for a few appointments, and then his [01:14:55] sister came along with him and said that he’s really happy with me and he wants to do all [01:15:00] his treatment. And it was a compliment, but not, not really, because [01:15:05] he had full mouth extractions and then he wanted dentures. So I told him that the [01:15:10] thing is that his treatment had to be done in an upright [01:15:15] position because the chair couldn’t be reclined back.

Payman Langroudi: And he’s nervous.

Anita Pradan: And he’s nervous [01:15:20] and I’m short, so I couldn’t really.

Payman Langroudi: Reach themselves [01:15:25] were difficult.

Anita Pradan: Yes, the extractions were difficult. Some of them were root stumps. [01:15:30] And I thought.

Payman Langroudi: You were doing them all in one go.

Anita Pradan: No, in quadrants. And [01:15:35] I did tell him that one of the teeth that it it seems like [01:15:40] it’s quite badly broken down and I might not be able to get it out. It’s better to refer him. He’s like, no, just [01:15:45] try it anyway. But it was on the lower left side [01:15:50] and I was trying to reach the lower left side from his right side.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:15:55] you couldn’t move the chair at all.

Anita Pradan: I couldn’t move the chair, and nor could I stretch over because I’m [01:16:00] not tall enough. I think maybe I needed a stool, to be honest. So I pulled my back [01:16:05] in the process. Thank goodness the tooth broke as [01:16:10] expected. I knew it’s going to break. And then he was. He was still okay. [01:16:15] He was like, yeah, just file it down. It’s not giving me any problems. It was Nonvital. And [01:16:20] he was like, I’ll go to, you know, the hospital to have it extracted. But even through [01:16:25] all that, like he was, he was such a nice guy. But I thought, I’m going to get [01:16:30] a complaint now. But I just remember working [01:16:35] there and seeing all these patients from a practice which had shut down And [01:16:40] thinking to myself that I am going to get a complaint from here because [01:16:45] there were patients who were not mine who had come after us, especially. Quite [01:16:50] a lot of them came after root canal completion in pain. When [01:16:55] I took the X-ray, there’s there’s no filling in there. Open the tooth. [01:17:00] There’s no no root canal filling. It’s just like cotton in [01:17:05] the pulp chamber. That’s it.

Payman Langroudi: God.

Anita Pradan: But [01:17:10] fortunately, I was fine. And I completed all those treatments, and they were quite happy. [01:17:15] So I think my lesson, which I’ve learned from my [01:17:20] father, is that, you know, to know your scope. And of course, as you said, we have to try it [01:17:25] someday. We can’t say that. Oh, everything’s out of my scope. But, but to know the limitations [01:17:30] and to get proper training and, you know, to have guidance from, from your mentors [01:17:35] or whoever can support you, that’s quite important when you start.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:17:40] we’re getting on to the sort of final questions, a bit [01:17:45] of quickfire. Mhm. What’s the favourite lecture you’ve been to.

Anita Pradan: The [01:17:50] tactics lectures. Orthodontics. Absolutely amazing. [01:17:55] Brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: For someone who doesn’t understand like, what was it about that particular ortho [01:18:00] that blew you away?

Anita Pradan: The lecture was actually one that really stands [01:18:05] out is from Doctor Ines. And she was delivering the lectures on [01:18:10] um aligners. Anyway, I found Find orthodontics [01:18:15] really mesmerising, but the way that it was delivered and the, the [01:18:20] passion with which it was, it was absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Are you telling me it was more the content [01:18:25] than more the delivery than the content?

Anita Pradan: No, the content and the delivery. Both.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So she was she was [01:18:30] great deliverer. But content wise, what was it like tactically? What were they doing differently [01:18:35] with aligners or thinking differently with aligners?

Anita Pradan: First of all, obviously it was covering all types of aligners. [01:18:40] It was not focussed on anything in particular, but it was, you know, just to, to [01:18:45] open up your mind to think about aligners as, you [01:18:50] know, not to only think that, okay, I’m going to deliver aligner therapy for this patient, but to [01:18:55] be blind to the fact that you might not be able to do everything with aligners to know [01:19:00] the limitations and also to know like, you know, to what extent can you go with [01:19:05] it and, you know, the modifications, what you can do to, you know, to deliver that [01:19:10] treatment and to know the restrictions and you know.

Payman Langroudi: What it’s good at, what it’s [01:19:15] bad.

Anita Pradan: At. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It was the ways around the things that it’s bad at.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. And to, you know, to [01:19:20] troubleshooting. And it was just so comprehensive. It [01:19:25] was just absolutely amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Love that.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about your favourite resource [01:19:30] like your favourite? I don’t know, some people will say a book, some people will say a website, some people [01:19:35] will say an Instagram or YouTube.

Anita Pradan: Well, in recent times, I [01:19:40] think I’ve not read too much of Dental books, to be honest with you. The most I [01:19:45] read is the BDA, and I do find a lot of the articles very, very interesting. [01:19:50] But when I was at university, the book which I used to love most [01:19:55] was radiology. Eric Waite’s book. Oh really? I don’t know why I loved it so [01:20:00] much. I just found it. So I think I. I loved physics and a [01:20:05] lot of it physics. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: I love it. It’s funny, my daughter wants to be do dentistry now and [01:20:10] physics isn’t necessary. Yeah, but she loves physics. Physics [01:20:15] is. Now she’s going to do five A-levels just to include physics. Yes. And I’m [01:20:20] not sure that’s a good idea.

Anita Pradan: I don’t know, I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Not sure it’s a good idea. Five. Five is a lot of A-levels. [01:20:25]

Anita Pradan: It’s a lot of A-levels.

Payman Langroudi: Yes, yes.

Anita Pradan: But yeah, same with me. I think [01:20:30] I did physics because I just loved it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the best science. I think anyone says it’s so amazing. I mean, we [01:20:35] should say biology. We should, we should in my world, actually, [01:20:40] I wish I paid more attention in chemistry because chemistry has become huge in my world. I [01:20:45] have to now hire chemists all the time, and I don’t fully understand what they’re saying. Some [01:20:50] of the words are like familiar. Yeah, really [01:20:55] get it.

Anita Pradan: Sometimes when I was at school, I used to love physics and I [01:21:00] had this physics teacher in in Nepal and I studied in India as well, my [01:21:05] secondary school.

Payman Langroudi: So and then did you dad move to India as well? Is that why? Why were [01:21:10] you in India?

Anita Pradan: No. Um, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Just.

Anita Pradan: A lot of Nepalese people go to India to [01:21:15] study. And obviously India has very good education. So I did my, uh, secondary [01:21:20] school in India in boarding school, and then I did my A-levels here [01:21:25] in London, and then I went back to do my dentistry in India again.

Payman Langroudi: What an education [01:21:30] man. What an education. So interesting. All those different types of education. [01:21:35] Yeah.

Anita Pradan: I think the hardest thing was to come [01:21:40] for A-levels to London. That’s the hardest move because obviously you’re [01:21:45] already in a system and then you are doing very well, and suddenly you’re [01:21:50] in a completely different system where things are taught completely differently. Yeah, because India is [01:21:55] quite spoon fed, like everything, you know, you’re memorised. Yes. And here you come [01:22:00] to do A-levels and it’s like there’s no particular textbook. You’re just like, you know, doing [01:22:05] a lot of experiments, especially, you know, physics and like lots.

Payman Langroudi: Of levels are tough, man. It’s [01:22:10] really tough anyway if you’re in the system. But you’re right coming from an outside. Yeah. [01:22:15] System. And then I think they’ve got it. Part of it is they’re trying to say, all right, you’re no longer [01:22:20] a child. Yes. Now go off and start to become an adult.

Anita Pradan: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And [01:22:25] I remember in my school, the teachers had this thing about, hey, you know, if you don’t [01:22:30] do your homework or your test that’s on you. You know, it’s [01:22:35] a totally different way that they used to talk to you when you were 15 or 16. Yeah. Like it was on them and [01:22:40] they were going to punish you or whatever it was. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I guess [01:22:45] it’s, it’s the way of thinking of half adulthood, isn’t it? Yes. Yeah. [01:22:50] So final question. Fantasy dinner party, [01:22:55] three guests.

Anita Pradan: I thought about that. I can’t think of any [01:23:00] other alive. I was like, maybe, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, we just had our dinner [01:23:05] party.

Anita Pradan: Yes, we had our dinner party. Can’t really think of anyone to have for [01:23:10] a dinner party.

Payman Langroudi: Well, I mean, Einstein, Gandhi, you know, you know what I mean. You [01:23:15] got Einstein and your grandmother’s grandmother. You [01:23:20] know, it’s.

Anita Pradan: Actually, maybe. My, my, I [01:23:25] can’t think of three people, but definitely, I would say my grandmother on [01:23:30] my dad’s side because I never met her. And my grandfather [01:23:35] always, always talked such wonderful things about her.

Payman Langroudi: What were the stories [01:23:40] you say?

Anita Pradan: My grandmother, she passed away when my father was doing his dentistry. [01:23:45] So he always used to say that, you know, so my grandfather, [01:23:50] he, like he had another wife before, but she passed away. And that this grandmother is my [01:23:55] dad’s mother. So he always used to say that, you know, she although [01:24:00] not having had too much of an education, she was so intelligent, [01:24:05] you know, and the advice she used to give was absolutely brilliant. And she was [01:24:10] so warm and welcoming. And, you know, just the things she used to say. And I [01:24:15] think it’s quite a reflection of my dad in a way.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Um, but not [01:24:20] necessarily his siblings because they are quite different from him, but I would have loved [01:24:25] to have met her. Uh, yeah, I think she’s one person that, [01:24:30] uh, she never got to meet, but I think would have made a big difference [01:24:35] in in my life.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you know, when, when, when stories like that, [01:24:40] when, when someone died a long time before and stories like [01:24:45] that keep coming up. Mhm. It’s a sign that they were a special person. Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Yes. [01:24:50]

Payman Langroudi: Um, anyone else you can think of?

Anita Pradan: Um. [01:24:55] Not really. I haven’t really thought [01:25:00] about it.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. We’ll leave it at that. Thank you so much.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. Hope [01:25:05] you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure you tune in for future episodes. Hit subscribe [01:25:10] in iTunes or Google Play or whatever platform it is. And you know, we really, [01:25:15] really appreciate it. If you would, um, give.

Prav Solanki: Us a six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. [01:25:20] That’s what I always leave my Uber driver.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:25:25] a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.

Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] enlightened Online training.com to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time. Whitening Underwhelms try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where [00:00:30] you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and [00:00:40] Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Ben Barta [00:00:45] onto the podcast. Ben is a long time [00:00:50] member of the dental support kind of group. The the people who [00:00:55] set up events started out with open rooms. Um, and, uh, [00:01:00] then now doing your own thing. Yeah. Good to see you, man.

Ben Barter: Good to see you, too. Payman. Thanks [00:01:05] for having me.

Payman Langroudi: My pleasure. Um, you’ve been in Dental. Since when?

Ben Barter: Since, [00:01:10] well, full time 2015, I would say. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:01:15] what surprises you the most about the Dental industry or what surprised [00:01:20] you? What’s different about it to what you thought it would be?

Ben Barter: I think as a non [00:01:25] dentist and as someone who, to be honest, has, [00:01:30] you know, relative to the people that I spend time with in the industry, has very little knowledge [00:01:35] at all. Uh, everybody’s incredibly friendly, incredibly welcoming, very [00:01:40] respectful because, you know, you’d be forgiven for thinking like, this guy’s [00:01:45] not worth my time. He’s not, you know, he’s just organising an event, for example. But actually, you [00:01:50] know, people really give you the time of day and want to know about you. And yeah, I think that’s it’s. [00:01:55]

Payman Langroudi: A small world, right?

Ben Barter: It’s a great community. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a small world. Um, for [00:02:00] sure. Everybody seems to know everybody. Yeah. Um, which again is great, but [00:02:05] also I guess we work across quite a few different industries. The thing [00:02:10] I find about Dental is that everybody knows everybody, not just from a professional [00:02:15] point of view, but it’s there’s a lot of personal relationships in there.

Payman Langroudi: And what are the other industries you’ve worked [00:02:20] in?

Ben Barter: So we’ve worked well currently on this business. We work in veterinary [00:02:25] and petrol stations as well. Also done a bit of work in pharmacy [00:02:30] in data centres, which was not so successful. But yeah, [00:02:35] Dental.

Payman Langroudi: Kicked off all of those at the same time. Did you?

Ben Barter: Yeah, we did all of them at the same time. Yeah. [00:02:40] Um.

Payman Langroudi: So how do you how do you go about it? Let’s say you want to do something in um petrol [00:02:45] stations. Do you find someone who’s already selling something to petrol stations and recruit that guy. [00:02:50] How does it work.

Ben Barter: So a lot of it is about building some really strong [00:02:55] initial connections that are influential within whatever industry it’s in. So if you’ve [00:03:00] got the, you know, the petrol station industry, for example, if [00:03:05] we can find someone who knows people very well, um, [00:03:10] and is well connected, then he can introduce, he [00:03:15] can introduce us to, you know, a range of different people.

Payman Langroudi: Literally, what do you do? Do [00:03:20] you go and ask everyone you know, do you know anyone in that industry or what do you do?

Ben Barter: We normally [00:03:25] normally use LinkedIn, find a find a couple of people. Yeah. Um, I guess it’s a bit different now because the [00:03:30] ones, the industries that we’re working in at the moment, we’ve had, we’ve got a grounding in them. We, we know [00:03:35] people, uh, through, you know, other experience, but if say, it was a brand new [00:03:40] one, um, we would look at who are the key players and [00:03:45] try and onboard them in a consultant level or engage them [00:03:50] with wanting to speak at an event, something like that to break [00:03:55] the ice. And then as we build on those relationships, hope and kind of expect [00:04:00] that they connect us with other people or teach us a bit about the industry. Um, and [00:04:05] then we, and then we go from there and it’s kind of a domino effect.

Payman Langroudi: Are you noticing that most industries [00:04:10] are the same? What are the nuances about the pharma industry or the vet industry [00:04:15] that you wouldn’t expect compared to the Dental industry? Or would you say everyone’s kind of similar? [00:04:20] Uh, no.

Ben Barter: No, there are big differences for sure. There are big differences. Like, [00:04:25] um, the pharmacy industry that we’re, we’re not in in a [00:04:30] large capacity at the moment, but, um, it’s incredibly political, [00:04:35] isn’t it? So yeah, there’s a lot of that going on and, um, it’s [00:04:40] not, it’s not the same as the Dental industry where everyone just comes in, they, they all get on [00:04:45] incredibly well. There are different like relationships within that. Um, it’s a bit more complicated. [00:04:50] It’s interesting, but there is like a large political angle to, um, [00:04:55] to all those relationships and what people are wanting to achieve. [00:05:00] There are lots of associations. They don’t necessarily just.

Payman Langroudi: Align.

Ben Barter: Always play [00:05:05] nicely together. Um, so that is very different. Um, [00:05:10] but then we.

Payman Langroudi: Should explain, we should explain to, to anyone who doesn’t know what the basic business [00:05:15] model in the dentistry arena anyway, is that you hook up [00:05:20] corporate dentists, people with lots of practices to suppliers. Yeah. [00:05:25] Weekend away, someplace nice. And then the corporates [00:05:30] get to come for free. And the suppliers pay for the sort of 15 minute, ten [00:05:35] minute speed dating that you set up. And then there’s an amazing [00:05:40] social sort of calendar around that sort of breakfast, lunch, dinner party kind [00:05:45] of thing. Yeah, that’s the basic formula. That’s brilliant. That’s a brilliant formula. It is two brilliant. [00:05:50] So so are you doing the same formula across all the different, um, you [00:05:55] know, segments like.

Ben Barter: We’re doing the same formula. Yeah. I think that’s the thing that we’ve, we’ve always found [00:06:00] works really well. And if it’s not broken, don’t fix it. And I think the, the [00:06:05] original structure remains the same as when, you know, I first [00:06:10] experienced it 11 years ago. And, you know, the founders [00:06:15] of Open Room, for example, they started it over 20 years ago. The the structure is, is [00:06:20] the same. It’s effective.

Payman Langroudi: Did they did did they copy it from somewhere or was that was that their original [00:06:25] idea?

Ben Barter: I think that, you know, I can’t I can’t quite remember, but I think [00:06:30] there was, um, I think they kind of took a [00:06:35] similar concept and put it into what is this [00:06:40] format of? Yeah, speed dating for businesses really.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I take my hat off [00:06:45] to you because events are extraordinarily difficult, really hard. I just did that Ministry [00:06:50] of Sound event. And it’s hard. It’s so hard. So many moving parts [00:06:55] and everything made for this one day, two days, and [00:07:00] like a wedding or something, isn’t it? Something’s going to go wrong and you have to sort [00:07:05] of think on your feet.

Ben Barter: It’s a lot of work for building up to one particular [00:07:10] moment.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ben Barter: And I think like across a lot of different industries, you don’t really get [00:07:15] that. It’s like a building over time. Yeah. And you see the results. Whereas we are building [00:07:20] this over time. But then it’s the you see the results, they’re either good or they’re bad. Yeah. In, [00:07:25] in two days, which is yeah, it is quite different. It puts a lot of pressure on. [00:07:30] I’d say that we’re quite used to it now. We actually thrive on on that. [00:07:35] And getting to the execution stage is that’s the bit that we really enjoy. [00:07:40] We find it rewarding, you know, spending time with the people that we’ve been kind of putting [00:07:45] this together for is, is a great experience. [00:07:50] And, um, you know, if you’re doing that with nice people as well, that’s, that’s even better, which [00:07:55] we, which we always are. Um, but yeah, I think as, as, as you know, from [00:08:00] the ministry of sound event, it’s like there’s always something that goes [00:08:05] wrong, right? As much as it can look incredible. And I thought that like [00:08:10] that, all the photos that I was seeing from that just looked like the production levels [00:08:15] are absolutely insane. And I think, but, but [00:08:20] always as the organiser, I don’t know if you find this, but there’s always something that [00:08:25] hasn’t gone to plan.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it does go wrong. Yeah.

Ben Barter: But it’s whether the people notice that [00:08:30] yeah is the key thing.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it’s also like knowing who your customer is, right. In [00:08:35] a way. Because one of I know my ministry of sound event. I [00:08:40] mean, of course, enlightens biggest users were they were the VIPs in [00:08:45] the room, right? Yeah. Because, you know, that’s my company. But the. In [00:08:50] our event, the sponsors were the customers. Yeah, not really the [00:08:55] ticket holders, the sponsors because they put up so much of it. Yeah. And [00:09:00] you know that moving that’s a, that’s like a four layered thing, isn’t it? You’ve got yourself, [00:09:05] your company, your team, then you’ve got the delegates, then you’ve got the sponsors. [00:09:10] And in, in our situation at that point, I wanted to make sure sponsors really, [00:09:15] really got value out of it. And that’s very different. When you turn up to an [00:09:20] event, you don’t you don’t necessarily think it’s for the sponsors, right? Yeah. But it is. Yeah, [00:09:25] exactly.

Ben Barter: It’s got to be they’ve got they’ve got to be happy to, you know, whether people like it [00:09:30] or not. Yeah. That’s how it works. That’s why the event is there. The [00:09:35] sponsors have made that happen. We might have been the ones organising and facilitating, [00:09:40] but without the sponsors we can’t do anything.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So your own background, [00:09:45] how did you get into events?

Ben Barter: It was very, very random, to be honest. [00:09:50] Um, it was my first job out of university. Um, so I [00:09:55] guess background, my, you know, my mum was friends with, [00:10:00] uh, Fiona who started open rim. Okay. Um, and so [00:10:05] through that got a bit of work experience while I was at university. And I loved it to the [00:10:10] point where actually after my first year of uni, I thought, should I just go and work? Um, this [00:10:15] might be a better fit for me. Um, but I carried on through university. [00:10:20]

Payman Langroudi: And then did you study something completely unrelated?

Ben Barter: I studied economics, politics [00:10:25] and international relations, which. Yeah. [00:10:30] I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Instead of the UN, you joined Dental forum. Ah.

Ben Barter: I can’t [00:10:35] say I learnt a huge amount, um, at university, to be honest. It was like [00:10:40] what I got out of it was um friends and growing up a bit [00:10:45] more, I think. But in terms of actual stuff that I learned throughout three years, I [00:10:50] don’t think I’ve ever put any of it into practice since since leaving. Yeah, it’s [00:10:55] it’s a piece of paper that I’ve got at the end of it.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s so interesting that if you’d studied event management, [00:11:00] that’s nowhere near sort of a high level degree as economics, [00:11:05] but that might have given you like so much more. I mean, well or not or [00:11:10] not, you know, who knows, maybe event management degrees are terrible, but, you know, like [00:11:15] it’s looked down on that kind of degree. And yet that that’s the degree that might [00:11:20] have helped you loads in what you’re doing.

Ben Barter: Yeah. I mean, it’s such a good point. Like if, if [00:11:25] I had my time again, I’d probably do like business studies or something. [00:11:30] That’s a bit more practical.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ben Barter: Um, you know, or marketing or something like [00:11:35] that that I could put into my day.

Payman Langroudi: Media studies was a real cop out. But now you’re thinking [00:11:40] media. Like if you know media, it’s very useful. Yeah.

Ben Barter: Yeah. [00:11:45]

Payman Langroudi: So then, okay, you was your first job with the Open Rooms.

Ben Barter: First job [00:11:50] was with open Rooms. Yeah, and I was there for five years. Stayed there for five years.

Payman Langroudi: And what an execution. [00:11:55] What a brilliant execution those guys did. What did you learn? What were the positives that you learned about business management from? [00:12:00] From those two.

Ben Barter: Got endless, really. I think vast [00:12:05] majority of stuff that I know now, I would, I would say I learned learned from being there [00:12:10] in the certainly in the first five years, but I, I [00:12:15] was incredibly lucky because what I was the seventh employee, I think there. [00:12:20] So every day have a direct communication with the founders, [00:12:25] you know, being. They were also my managers. They taught me how to do [00:12:30] everything. So getting that exposure was, was great. And also it could be taken as far as [00:12:35] I wanted to as well. I’ve always had an interest in kind of running [00:12:40] my own business. At some point. I had had that since I was younger, so the [00:12:45] ability to be able to kind of explore that and see just from learning [00:12:50] and seeing what they’re, what they’re doing, um, ended up meaning that I got kind [00:12:55] of a really well-rounded education, if you like, from, but.

Payman Langroudi: What were.

Ben Barter: The, the [00:13:00] different parts of the business?

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s kind of weird because it was your first job, so you might take it for granted, [00:13:05] take the lessons for granted. Right. But you know, when like you say with dentists, they go work in six different [00:13:10] practices and then they learn good and bad from some of the people, [00:13:15] you know, the, the running the business.

Ben Barter: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind if I say what was like the top lessons [00:13:20] you learned from them?

Ben Barter: Okay, so probably the number one. And it’s [00:13:25] still they would always say, if you’re going to fail, fail quickly. Um, [00:13:30] which I think is a great lesson and just help [00:13:35] my understanding of when is it going wrong. And then is [00:13:40] that is it possible to change when it’s going wrong? Yeah. Or is this just something that’s going [00:13:45] to keep on going the wrong direction? And I’m actually wasting my time and energy and distracting from [00:13:50] something that might be much better. So I’d say that’s probably one thing.

Payman Langroudi: It is [00:13:55] difficult though, isn’t it? Because sometimes sticking at it is the best move.

Ben Barter: And sometimes [00:14:00] it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Hard to know what’s the right time to pivot.

Ben Barter: But I think I think if I can [00:14:05] think about every time where something was going in the wrong direction, I’ve [00:14:10] whether I’ve listened to it or not, I’ve always had a gut feeling that there’s been a moment where [00:14:15] it’s been like, this is not going in the right direction, and something should change. And [00:14:20] whenever I’ve listened to that is resolved, and that might be just a little pivot, [00:14:25] for example, or that might be just canning it all together, but not [00:14:30] listening to that is probably the times where actually the mistakes grow bigger.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:14:35] do you trust your gut? Yeah, because that’s a big kind of [00:14:40] like sometimes you go against your gut, don’t you? And then you realise later it was a mistake. But [00:14:45] but some people don’t trust their gut. I remember as a young man, I wasn’t, I was, I was trying to be so scientific. [00:14:50] I’d go, what’s this gut thing? I’d almost go against it on purpose. Do [00:14:55] you find what are you good at? Are you good at sizing people up or opportunities or what?

Ben Barter: I think [00:15:00] probably reading people, um, I would say is something [00:15:05] that I’ve to date done, done fairly well. Um, I [00:15:10] think looking at an opportunity and deciding whether it’s, it’s worthwhile also [00:15:15] like I like taking a risk, but I think the [00:15:20] kind of trust in my gut thing has allowed me to manage that a little bit. I think like, you [00:15:25] know, probably ten years ago, I’d have been happy to take any risk. Yeah, [00:15:30] going.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ben Barter: Even if it was just plain stupid. But but now [00:15:35] it’s more like calculated risks. And I think that comes from [00:15:40] trusting my gut.

Payman Langroudi: So in between Dental forum and [00:15:45] Dental assembly, there was Covid. Yeah. And you did your own [00:15:50] Start-Up?

Ben Barter: Yes. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Tell us about that.

Ben Barter: Well, I mean, that was a big [00:15:55] leap. And talk about trusting your gut. Yeah. Uh, [00:16:00] because it seemed like quite a crazy move at the time. Um, I mean, [00:16:05] not in the sense that it was Covid and it was not possible to put on events. So [00:16:10] timing worked in that.

Payman Langroudi: Because that was a pivot because events were.

Ben Barter: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I see.

Ben Barter: So [00:16:15] this, this happened in April 2020, but [00:16:20] I think I was ready to kind of do something different and get a different experience anyway. So [00:16:25] the timing was good on that front. But what it we started a business, uh, my business [00:16:30] partner who also worked at open room at the time, um, flinty, um, [00:16:35] and we started a business that was price comparison app for [00:16:40] beauty products. The crazy part is that I’m, I was not, [00:16:45] I didn’t know anything about beauty products and I didn’t know anything about technology. [00:16:50] So the two things like that is kind of, yeah, [00:16:55] some people might say stupid, but saw an opportunity thought actually [00:17:00] perfect timing. You know, we’ve got some time to really get our heads down. Nothing to distract us. [00:17:05]

Payman Langroudi: People were buying loads of stuff online. Suddenly, right.

Ben Barter: Online sales were going through the roof. And [00:17:10] and there had been an underlying trend anyway, before that with beauty products [00:17:15] that sales online were going up, they were becoming a larger percentage of. [00:17:20]

Payman Langroudi: And was it price comparison for the same product or for the same ingredients, or what? How did [00:17:25] it work?

Ben Barter: It’s the same product. So so our.

Payman Langroudi: The actual branded product was sold here for this much [00:17:30] and here for somewhere else.

Ben Barter: Exactly. So designed to be a bit like Skyscanner, but for beauty products. [00:17:35] And then we also put a social element in there [00:17:40] because beauty products on social media, massive thing. But [00:17:45] we wanted somewhere where it could be exchanged or maybe a friend level [00:17:50] rather than influencer to consumer. So the friend level being that [00:17:55] and you know, the app still going. I’m not involved in the day to day, but, [00:18:00] um, what you do is you put the contents of your washbag onto [00:18:05] a virtual shelf, all the products on there. And then the idea being that, [00:18:10] um, if you wanted to know what this person was, was using or [00:18:15] what perfume they were wearing or something like that, you’d be able to have a look on their shelf [00:18:20] and see what that product is.

Payman Langroudi: Quite interesting.

Ben Barter: Yeah. And it’s, [00:18:25] I think that that kind of nosiness amongst consumers was really [00:18:30] like, was really appealing and people and people got it. Um, when [00:18:35] we were initially scoping out the idea and then you add on the price comparison to that. So the idea [00:18:40] being that you’ve got the contents of your shelf and whenever one of the products is discounted, we’ll send [00:18:45] you a notification. And the average saving doing it by that method was 26% [00:18:50] is 26%. Um, maybe even increasing now because [00:18:55] there’s always a deal going somewhere. The issue is finding it.

Payman Langroudi: And what about the tech? [00:19:00] I mean, who did the tech?

Ben Barter: The tech. The tech was a steep, steep learning [00:19:05] curve for us. So we were, I think had it not been covered, [00:19:10] there might have been different things that we would have done. For example, like neither of us are technical [00:19:15] and we didn’t know anybody technical personally. So [00:19:20] if we were going to bring on a technical co-founder, it would have been a case of finding someone, interviewing them by Zoom. [00:19:25] And potentially at that stage, it looked like not meeting in person for six months, [00:19:30] which just felt wrong to us. So we decided to go down the agency route [00:19:35] and then we could get a fixed cost. We knew how much we needed to raise, and we found this company that [00:19:40] was that scoped everything out. We got, [00:19:45] I don’t know, 50 page document exactly what you’re going to get. And this is the fixed price. So it wasn’t [00:19:50] going to be like it’s taking longer and you need another ten K to do this or that. So [00:19:55] we went ahead with that, which was it served its purpose for what we needed. But [00:20:00] over the years, we quickly outgrew that, outgrew that solution. And we’re spending [00:20:05] a lot of money on development. We’ve now got, and [00:20:10] part of the reason why, you know, I transitioned away from the business was to [00:20:15] kind of change the, the makeup of the founding team to make it a bit better. [00:20:20] Um, so we’ve got a technical, a CTO [00:20:25] who used to be pretty senior in Google, um, has some [00:20:30] amazing experience and he’s now leading the product. And honestly, the changes that that has made [00:20:35] in the space of six months are remarkable. So glad that we’ve got that in place now. [00:20:40]

Payman Langroudi: Are you only out of it for six months?

Ben Barter: No, no no, I’m out of it. I’ve been out of it since 2000, [00:20:45] 2024. So, um, when I came back to open room, [00:20:50] I then took myself away from skin and [00:20:55] now I I’m still involved. I still speak to my business partner who’s also [00:21:00] a good friend of mine. Um, but that’s very much on a, like, you know, let’s have [00:21:05] a chat about stuff and I’ll give you some advice. And I’ve got some shares in the business, but not involved [00:21:10] on a day to day level, nor will I be.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, and you guys go on to Dragons Den.

Ben Barter: We [00:21:15] did? Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me that. How did you how did that come about? Did you actively seek to go [00:21:20] out on Dragon’s Den or.

Ben Barter: So yeah, when we were in our early stages, [00:21:25] we put in an application to go on Dragons Den and we were doing a fundraiser. So [00:21:30] we thought kind of naively, oh yeah, we’ll put in an application for that. Maybe that will turn around [00:21:35] really quickly and we’ll get some money in. Um, and we didn’t hear anything [00:21:40] back. We closed the round, got on with it, and then just randomly out of the blue, [00:21:45] I get a phone call. Um, I think, you know, over a year later saying [00:21:50] basically, uh, we like what you guys are doing. Do you want to [00:21:55] come on? Um, so yeah, obviously we said yes. We happen to [00:22:00] be doing another raise at the time as well. So we genuinely needed the money as well. We weren’t just going [00:22:05] on for a marketing from a marketing perspective, which I know a lot of businesses do, and I can [00:22:10] understand why. Yeah. But the dynamic was slightly different for us that [00:22:15] we were like, right, this is going to be great exposure, but it’s not going to come out for a year after filming probably [00:22:20] or almost. So we actually need to close and get some money as a result [00:22:25] of it. Um, which we did, fortunately. Um.

Payman Langroudi: What? You accepted [00:22:30] an offer.

Ben Barter: We accepted an offer. Yeah, yeah, we got, we got an offer that we were really happy with, actually.

Payman Langroudi: Which [00:22:35] dragon?

Ben Barter: Uh, Sarah Davies, who? And she’s brilliant. She really [00:22:40] does get involved in the business, the businesses that she invests in. So she [00:22:45] organises a retreat once a year, um, where she gets all the businesses that she’s invested in [00:22:50] together for a couple of days and exchange ideas. There’s always something [00:22:55] to learn from these other people, even if they’re doing something completely different. [00:23:00] There’s always someone who’s fundraising or having, you know, hitting a wall [00:23:05] with their marketing or whatever that may be. And also just her time and [00:23:10] expertise. So she’s a fantastic investor. Um, and she’s, she’s [00:23:15] no longer on the show as well, which I mean, from a selfish point of view is, is great because [00:23:20] I think it means that, well, maybe not anymore, but Flynt, he gets to [00:23:25] spend more time with her, which is great.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me, how long was it sort [00:23:30] of bootstrapped? How long before you raised the first dollar and all of that?

Ben Barter: Um, [00:23:35] so I mean, I’ll go back to talking about risks here because again, [00:23:40] this is something that this is a case of just trust your gut. I think that we, we came [00:23:45] up with the concept. We knew what we wanted to do. We went and spoke to the developer. [00:23:50] We signed a contract with that developer. And I think between us, we [00:23:55] had a bit of money that we could kind of kick start the the expenses that we needed to incur [00:24:00] in order to get the ball rolling. But we signed a contract for 50 [00:24:05] K, um, the developer. Yeah. [00:24:10] And we had not raised a penny. So then we were like, okay, right. We’ve [00:24:15] got to go out and raise some money. We’ve got to do it fairly quickly to, you know, to finance [00:24:20] that. So we, we did an initial round, um, which was [00:24:25] kind of made up of mostly kind of friends and family and connections through that. [00:24:30] Um, got to the point where we did like a soft launch of the app. [00:24:35] And then we did a further round, which was then going away from that. We’ve, we’ve never [00:24:40] done any VC funding, but we’ve, we’ve done what I think we’re on our fourth [00:24:45] round of fundraising now. Um, so again, it’s, it’s getting more into just [00:24:50] getting in touch with angel investors on LinkedIn.

Payman Langroudi: But you’ve never done that before.

Ben Barter: Had you never done that before? No. [00:24:55] No. So that was, that was quite that was an interesting it was a really difficult [00:25:00] experience, actually.

Payman Langroudi: Go on.

Ben Barter: I think.

Payman Langroudi: Constant rejections.

Ben Barter: Constant [00:25:05] rejections. I’m fine. Fine with that because, you know, I’ve been working in sales [00:25:10] for open for five years.

Payman Langroudi: Like you used to.

Ben Barter: Get used to it. I think the difference [00:25:15] with fundraising is you’re selling yourself. You’re not selling a product or finding [00:25:20] a fit. It’s are we the right people [00:25:25] to take.

Payman Langroudi: The right job.

Ben Barter: To do this? Because I don’t think there was any ever any question [00:25:30] about whether the idea was good. Like all the data was suggesting, it’s the right [00:25:35] thing to do. I fully expect that if you look ten years down the line, this [00:25:40] will be quite a normal thing amongst beauty consumers. But [00:25:45] it was whether we’re the right fit to do it. And that was where it was difficult because we had and [00:25:50] I don’t blame people, but we had no relevant experience whatsoever. So you do get a lot [00:25:55] of rejection because it’s someone then that on the basis of like half an [00:26:00] hour phone call or Zoom meeting, they’re going to they’re like, okay, I’m going to take [00:26:05] a punt on these guys. And that’s what investing is at the best of times, but certainly with people [00:26:10] with no relevant experience, it’s even more so. So it was it was hard, but we managed to [00:26:15] do it.

Payman Langroudi: And and what would you like to say in the end if you had to distil it? What [00:26:20] do they want? They want a big market that you [00:26:25] might be able to get a bite out of. Is that right? And so then what? You have to come across [00:26:30] as all confident or what? What did you what did you what are the insights?

Ben Barter: It [00:26:35] really varied between, between different people that we [00:26:40] spoke to. So there was never because I think after every call we’d be looking at like, okay, [00:26:45] what’s the, what’s the trend here? What questions are we falling short on?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:26:50]

Ben Barter: Where do we need to improve? But there was never a consistent answer which made it really difficult. [00:26:55] Um, but I’d say the market people want to see, see [00:27:00] a great market for that product. They want to see product market [00:27:05] fit being the initial one. But then what’s the size of the opportunity. How big can can this [00:27:10] go. Total addressable.

Payman Langroudi: Market. Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Barter: Especially at [00:27:15] such an early stage business. They’re like, right, you guys obviously want to reach for [00:27:20] the stars and try and get as far as you can. But if you were saying all of this, like, what happens [00:27:25] if you’re doing 20% of that, is this still a good business? And I think that [00:27:30] was a.

Payman Langroudi: Tough question to answer.

Ben Barter: Isn’t it? Yeah, it was a really tough question. And I think in the beginning [00:27:35] we were really confused by it. We’d never done this before. And we’re like, what are you talking about 20%? [00:27:40] Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, maybe we’re prepared questions on 75%, [00:27:45] maybe even 50. But going that low down. And I can completely understand why they [00:27:50] asked those questions. But that was a bit of a learning curve for us. And then [00:27:55] I think the other thing that they just wanted to see from us, have [00:28:00] we got the capabilities to put it together? So have we got the [00:28:05] the grit to go and keep to keep going? And I think that’s [00:28:10] how we raised most of it, to be honest. It was it was through putting ourselves across [00:28:15] like that when we got when we took it away from the. Like on paper, this [00:28:20] is a great.

Payman Langroudi: We wanted it bad enough.

Ben Barter: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ben Barter: Yeah. [00:28:25]

Payman Langroudi: All right. And then so with Dental assembly, what’s the finance model [00:28:30] for you? Have you had to raise money for that?

Ben Barter: We did. Yeah. Yeah. So [00:28:35] we I guess it’s pretty different to, to skin, which we, we knew always with that [00:28:40] one that we were going to have to raise round after round. This was a [00:28:45] case of, I mean firstly we, we got a huge amount of experience between my business [00:28:50] partner Dominic and myself. We’ve got 16 years doing [00:28:55] this. So I think you’re having very different conversations with people. We were able [00:29:00] to forecast a lot more effectively what we needed. [00:29:05] Um, and we went out and we just raised that amount and it was a much more straightforward [00:29:10] process if, if I’m completely honest, but I think it’s the combination of all of that experience [00:29:15] before that made it so.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, the first time was the first time [00:29:20] as well.

Ben Barter: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s a real difference. It’s a real difference. And the second time [00:29:25] in a market, you really understand, I can imagine that you’re totally different [00:29:30] situation.

Ben Barter: A very different proposition. Yeah. I think when when we’re being [00:29:35] asked questions and we know we can say this is definitely we [00:29:40] can speak with Definites, which, which we would never in the beginning of at the beginning [00:29:45] of starting skin, we were never able to do that. It was all maybes.

Payman Langroudi: Now, in [00:29:50] this market that you’re in, which is essentially bringing DSOs [00:29:55] and suppliers together, suddenly there’s a massive surge of companies doing this. [00:30:00]

Ben Barter: Yeah, yeah, it’s crowded.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s suddenly become a crowded market. I mean, it wasn’t in your open [00:30:05] rooms days. You were the only ones in Dental anyway. Yeah. Um, [00:30:10] so how are you negotiating that? I mean, what are you saying? Is your USP over [00:30:15] the others.

Ben Barter: So I think I.

Payman Langroudi: Want to be clear. We’ve got [00:30:20] a couple of events coming up.

Ben Barter: Yeah, yeah we do.

Payman Langroudi: In September and November and November. [00:30:25]

Ben Barter: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And you’ve decided to split it up into big, big companies and small companies. [00:30:30]

Ben Barter: That’s right. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What was the thinking behind that?

Ben Barter: So we’re looking [00:30:35] at our overall objective is to is to be focusing on quality, not quantity. [00:30:40] So and I think that where, where we want to differentiate is [00:30:45] having small groups of people and building a real community. Now, when we, [00:30:50] when I first got involved in this in 2015, that’s very [00:30:55] much what it was. It was small groups of people. Everybody would spend time with everybody across the [00:31:00] two days. And it it was, you know, a close knit group every every time, [00:31:05] I think. So we wanted to carry that into that mentality, into this one. [00:31:10] Yeah. And by splitting it up, it means that we can cater for a [00:31:15] large part of the the whole DSA market really in [00:31:20] the UK? Yeah. Between having one event that caters for groups that have [00:31:25] got ten plus practices, um, and everything around that event is focussed on groups [00:31:30] of that size. It’s very, you know, it’s very considered, it’s very targeted towards them.

Payman Langroudi: In [00:31:35] what sense? Well, I think the, the education program.

Ben Barter: The education, [00:31:40] the content, the suppliers. Um, it’s very different peer to peer networking. [00:31:45] I mean.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting you say that, but you know, someone’s got 15 practices very, [00:31:50] very different. Someone who’s got 400.

Ben Barter: Is very different.

Payman Langroudi: But go on, go on.

Ben Barter: It is. And [00:31:55] obviously there’s going to be that that difference. But you know, for someone [00:32:00] who’s got 15 practices being amongst groups that have [00:32:05] got 400.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the next.

Ben Barter: Great exposure, isn’t it? It’s um, [00:32:10] you know, it’s good peer to peer time as far as we’re concerned. [00:32:15]

Payman Langroudi: So smaller groups.

Ben Barter: The smaller groups.

Payman Langroudi: Anything else?

Ben Barter: Um what [00:32:20] smaller groups of people. And then we’ve got the second event which caters for smaller.

Payman Langroudi: Smaller. [00:32:25]

Ben Barter: 1 to 10 practices. And I think that probably is quite an underserved part of the market. If we look [00:32:30] at a DSO and the kind of event that we’re putting together. Certainly, I know, [00:32:35] I know this from our previous experiences. We focus on the biggest ones, and [00:32:40] then we kind of work down from there. And this allows [00:32:45] us to look at a part of the market that where there are people that might not necessarily [00:32:50] be going to these other events on the market. So it creates variety for everybody [00:32:55] in the room, not just suppliers, but also the other Dental groups that are going.

Payman Langroudi: And let’s walk [00:33:00] through the process that each of the practice groups puts down a list of sort [00:33:05] of, uh, suppliers they want to meet. Yes. And vice versa. The suppliers [00:33:10] put down the list of the practice groups they want to meet.

Ben Barter: They do.

Payman Langroudi: And you put that all together into [00:33:15] how many meetings.

Ben Barter: We put that together into. On average, everybody’s going to have between [00:33:20] 12 and 14 meetings across the 210 minute meetings. Uh, [00:33:25] 15 minutes.

Payman Langroudi: 15 minute meetings. Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Barter: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then socially, because [00:33:30] a lot of the business happens in the bar, right?

Ben Barter: Well, you’re right, you’re right. It’s really important. [00:33:35] And this is this is part of what we were looking at when we were mapping this out [00:33:40] and, um, thinking it’s really important part to get right. [00:33:45] But over the past few years, we hadn’t been getting it necessarily [00:33:50] spot on. So we wanted to look at how we can change that. And the example [00:33:55] that I would give is that we, when we were looking at the venue, the hotel [00:34:00] that we’re using, which is a beautiful hotel, beautiful by the beach.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:34:05]

Ben Barter: Five star, but it’s got a setup that we can [00:34:10] give people variety, but keep people together in the same place, which is very unique. [00:34:15] And there are very few hotels out there that cater for things [00:34:20] in that way. There are probably 4 or 5 that that I can think of that we know [00:34:25] of in Europe that meet those requirements and this being one of them that we [00:34:30] can we can gradually scale up in terms of what we’re doing on [00:34:35] the social side of things. So like a casual first night dinner by the beach, [00:34:40] um, with a, you know, a bar going late into the night afterwards [00:34:45] and then through to the second night dinner where we’re going to have a slightly more formal event, [00:34:50] um, you know, again with beautiful sea views. Um, we’re [00:34:55] going to do an awards ceremony. We’ll have a special guest there. We’ll have some entertainment. And [00:35:00] then through past the dinner location, we’ve hired out [00:35:05] a nightclub which will be private to all the Dental Assembly attendees. So trying [00:35:10] to facilitate.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t leave like they normally do.

Ben Barter: They don’t leave. Yeah, exactly. And they get [00:35:15] you know, they still get that experience. They can, you know, drink late on into the night, [00:35:20] but it’s going to be quality networking time at the, at the same, um, you [00:35:25] know, with everybody in the same place together. And as you said at the start, a lot of [00:35:30] the business does get done at the bar. Yeah. And it’s really, really important that we pay, [00:35:35] pay attention to.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I’ve, I’ve, I [00:35:40] didn’t expect that my Ministry of sound event, the number of people who didn’t go [00:35:45] to the actual lectures.

Ben Barter: Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, we, we had sort [00:35:50] of in our head, okay, 200 people will be there and 50 people will be there, two rooms. And there [00:35:55] was a room in the middle, which was the breakout room, but continuously there was 100 people in the in [00:36:00] the breakout room all the time. But then, okay, it was fun. It was it was Ministry of Sound. [00:36:05] But but I hadn’t considered that that would be the case. And I thought about myself. And when [00:36:10] I was a dentist, that was the dentist. I was, you know, short attention span. [00:36:15] And for that reason, I kept the talks very, very short 20 minute talks in 17 minute [00:36:20] talks. Um, but, you know, understanding the dynamics of the group and [00:36:25] I was explaining to someone, if you and another dentist are at the bar [00:36:30] talking about the Seychelles, that’s work. Yeah, [00:36:35] that is work.

Ben Barter: 100%.

Payman Langroudi: There’s nothing about that that isn’t work. Yeah. [00:36:40] You may you may think talking about the Seychelles isn’t work, but two business [00:36:45] owners talking about switching off and where they would switch off in the same industry [00:36:50] is massive. And you know, that conversation is going in different directions isn’t just [00:36:55] about the, you know, surfboards of Seychelles. Yeah. Um, but, but [00:37:00] understanding that fact, yeah, it’s the same reason all our events, we have a social element, You know that our [00:37:05] composite hands on course, we have a social element for the night time [00:37:10] because that’s when people ask real questions. Yeah.

Ben Barter: Yeah. I think the better [00:37:15] you understand somebody, the the easier it is to work with them, the better it is in sales. [00:37:20] Yeah, yeah. You’re going to be so much better at understanding how best to communicate with them. How, [00:37:25] but you know, how you can provide the best service to them. [00:37:30] And I think so much of it is based on the personal element.

Payman Langroudi: Have you [00:37:35] considered the application into single practices? It’s difficult. I think [00:37:40] I thought about it a lot. It’s difficult. But but it’s interesting that [00:37:45] that you can have a single practice owner make an appointment to see you from then [00:37:50] till then, even if it’s five minutes. Yeah, but it’s difficult.

Ben Barter: I think the difficulty [00:37:55] is, and it comes back to, you know, when you were talking about sponsors and how [00:38:00] important they are to the event. It’s about delivering [00:38:05] the right value. I think we in our experience, [00:38:10] we’ve always felt that the format that we run, it works so much better abroad because it’s not just [00:38:15] about the speed meetings, it’s about the overall experience that we’re [00:38:20] giving to people and that being memorable. And then in [00:38:25] turn, when you talk about those relationships, you know, when you’re having a conversation by [00:38:30] the bar about the Seychelles, like if you’re doing that at Ministry [00:38:35] of Sound in your case, or you’re doing this in Portugal in ours, like then [00:38:40] that becomes much more memorable, I think. And it is about where you’re doing [00:38:45] it as well. But the challenge that comes with that, doing it for single practices is we [00:38:50] would need for the sponsors to make it attractive to get so many of them to come. Yeah, that [00:38:55] from our point of view, we just haven’t found a way that we could make that work yet. [00:39:00] Now, that’s not to say that we would never do that because in all honesty, like [00:39:05] if you had asked me five years ago, would we be doing one for the, you know, 3 to [00:39:10] 10 practices probably would have said no. So these things can develop.

Payman Langroudi: What I’m saying [00:39:15] is that there is a qualified lead, if you like. Yeah. Yeah. Like, [00:39:20] so even if it’s a single practice owner. Yeah. Comparing it to when we go to, uh, the [00:39:25] huge, you know, Dental showcases and all that. Yeah. We spent loads of money on these [00:39:30] stands. Yeah. Proper money. And then, I [00:39:35] mean, you know, we want to see nurses, hygienists and students. We do. It’s [00:39:40] part of the reason we’re there. But if there was one section of my stand dedicated [00:39:45] to serious qualified leads who before even coming, had expressed an interest. [00:39:50] Yeah. Then that would make that that show way, [00:39:55] way, way more attractive from the from the sponsor side. Yeah. From the, from the trade [00:40:00] side because sometimes you don’t know who you’re dealing with. And it’s actually [00:40:05] the reason why forum and all of those works so well was that once in a while at [00:40:10] Dental showcase, someone would turn up who had 34 practices and you’d go, oh, let’s [00:40:15] sit down, and you’d say, oh, the whole thing was kind of worth it because of this one guy, which is [00:40:20] why forum does work.

Ben Barter: Yeah, exactly. Well, there’s always been, always [00:40:25] been the approach that you just need one good conversation.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ben Barter: And that I [00:40:30] think that’s, that’s the basis of it really. When you’ve got [00:40:35] people there with multiple practices, one good conversation with them can [00:40:40] give you a return on investment. And it’s about ensuring that [00:40:45] in order for us to maintain the quality over quantity approach, [00:40:50] that one good conversation could lead to somebody saying, I had a great experience, [00:40:55] or we hope that everybody has a great experience, but I had a great experience [00:41:00] and there’s some business to come out of it as well that’s going to help us [00:41:05] grow.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think there’s any mileage in charging the groups a little something, [00:41:10] I guess. I suppose they’re spending time and time is the [00:41:15] most valuable asset, right?

Ben Barter: Yeah. I mean, their time is pretty valuable and it’s incredible. [00:41:20] It’s increasingly valuable given the number of events out there, [00:41:25] I think. Um, so I think for us to go and charge [00:41:30] the groups, I think they’d be like, right, okay, well, I’ve got so many other events that I could go to. [00:41:35] I actually think that it’s now about, it’s not just, I think it will turn that it’s not just [00:41:40] they get to come for free. And it’s in Portugal, for example. It’s [00:41:45] like it’s got to deliver some value. I think, I think it really does. And I think that [00:41:50] this is putting everybody under pressure to, to make every [00:41:55] every moment well spent and worthwhile.

Payman Langroudi: I had a really interesting moment [00:42:00] where I was spending time with the groups in, um, Spain, [00:42:05] with the groups while they were about to go into [00:42:10] their meetings with the suppliers and listening to what they [00:42:15] were saying to each other about, oh, God, we’ve got another meeting now. Who’s going to go? Will you go? [00:42:20] No. You go. And remembering the previous [00:42:25] time I’d gone, uh, we’d spent so much money, man. I think in total, we’d spent [00:42:30] 16, £17,000. Right. To be there and to [00:42:35] hear the other side of it that like, it just it was painful to listen to, to say. [00:42:40] Yeah. Because I know how much pressure we were under to make it count. You know, [00:42:45] as a supplier. Yeah.

Ben Barter: Yeah. It’s not ideal, is it? It’s not what you [00:42:50] want to hear before you arrange the meeting. But then [00:42:55] that’s the perfect opportunity to turn them around, isn’t it? Of course. Let them have it.

Payman Langroudi: Of [00:43:00] course. I mean, you know, at the end of the day, business is all about solving these problems, [00:43:05] isn’t it?

Ben Barter: It is. Yeah. Yeah. And I think giving people something different in the in [00:43:10] the ones ones as well. I think I can understand it from a group point of view. If you’re getting [00:43:15] like, if I was just sitting through everybody whipping [00:43:20] out their laptop and giving me a 15 minute presentation on why my product [00:43:25] is so good that I would find that very draining. But if I had somebody come [00:43:30] in, say to me, right, okay, where are you struggling here? Like what? What are your biggest pain [00:43:35] points? Not related to my product necessarily, but you know, what have you guys, [00:43:40] what are you guys doing at the moment that you feel could be working better? How do you want to grow? And [00:43:45] does that fit into then what you’re offering? Yeah. Um, [00:43:50] and I think that’s a much better way of going about it.

Payman Langroudi: But I think one thing you guys have. Right. And [00:43:55] the format has right, which we really try to inject at Ministry of Sound, was that fun [00:44:00] is the number one priority. Fun is very important. Yeah. Yeah. Because like we said, [00:44:05] time is very important. If I’m spending my time getting on a plane, going all the way there. Yeah. [00:44:10] I must enjoy that time. It’s very, very, very important.

Ben Barter: Oh, yeah. If you’re coming [00:44:15] back and saying that was dry, then it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah.

Ben Barter: It’s not going to work.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly. But no, but you [00:44:20] go to a lot of Dental events. Yeah. Where fun isn’t built in or, you know, it’s [00:44:25] like you have to turn up as either James Bond or, um, Spider-Man.

Ben Barter: Which [00:44:30] ones that.

Payman Langroudi: You know, like it’s either fancy dress or [00:44:35] gala gala or whatever. I know the reasons why it happens. Yeah.

Ben Barter: But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:44:40] know what I mean? Like it’s difficult. It’s difficult to have fun or some people think fun shouldn’t be part of [00:44:45] it. You know, it’s almost like it’s in their head that work and fun can’t be in the same blurred [00:44:50] equation.

Ben Barter: Oh, [00:44:55] God, that’s such a shame. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I. Yeah, I think so. [00:45:00] Your Ministry of Sound event, it was two till two, right? Yeah. 2 [00:45:05] p.m. till 2 a.m..

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ben Barter: When do you reckon was the peak in terms of the number of people that [00:45:10] were there.

Payman Langroudi: Three. Three in the afternoon. But it was funny. [00:45:15] It was a lunch, a coffee break at 330. Um, and, [00:45:20] uh, we had the guy live playing, uh, Adagio for [00:45:25] strings on a girl, a girl live playing Adagio [00:45:30] for strings on the, on the, on the keyboards and the DJ mixing it in lights [00:45:35] going. But you know, an event, um, energy [00:45:40] is a big issue. Yeah. How do you sort of get the energy going? And in a place like you, [00:45:45] you literally push your buttons and you can change the energy in a, in a moment, you know? So [00:45:50] it was super cool. It was super cool. People were really enjoying themselves.

Ben Barter: Yeah, I bet, and also, [00:45:55] it’s the kind of thing that people really do remember. It’s so different. Yeah, yeah. That anyone [00:46:00] who’s there, they had a good conversation. Yeah. They’re going to remember that. [00:46:05] And I think as you say, you can change the energy. And that’s, that’s really [00:46:10] cool to have that ability and to be able to change it up that quickly [00:46:15] as well throughout a day is very good going.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:46:20] know, I told you before this thing the day before, I said I would never do this again. [00:46:25] Yeah. And the day after I was like, when are we going to do it again? You, you must go [00:46:30] through that continuously, right? You’ve got, you’ve got that sort of, you know, events business. [00:46:35]

Ben Barter: Yeah. So the problem is we have to do it again. Yeah. No choice. Yeah. No. [00:46:40] I say that’s a problem. Actually I we I [00:46:45] don’t really have that thought anymore. I think it’s more seeing through. [00:46:50] Three things with [00:46:55] a with a very critical eye and trying [00:47:00] to think about how are we going to do this better? How are we going to improve this process? And I think particularly [00:47:05] it comes down to the month before. And every time we’re saying, okay, how can [00:47:10] we improve this process so that it’s more streamlined and we feel more [00:47:15] relaxed, and therefore the attendees beforehand are going to feel [00:47:20] more relaxed and excited? And it’s something that we’ve consistently worked on. It’s something that we [00:47:25] was one of the first things that we thought about when we were coming up with the idea of [00:47:30] assembly in the first place, is, how do we make that as smooth as possible? Because that month [00:47:35] is what has the direct impact on the overall experience for, for [00:47:40] the attendees?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, definitely. I think one thing we looked at as well was that to [00:47:45] try and get away from the fact it’s one day or two days by, you know, pumping [00:47:50] the social media before and after, you know, making it for [00:47:55] from, from the sponsors perspective. Yeah. Yeah. More, more than just the [00:48:00] live event as their exposure to the market. Um, you [00:48:05] should look at it too. Yeah. You’ll be amazed. The number of, uh, you know, companies who just [00:48:10] haven’t got proper social media output, you know, and [00:48:15] just would love to have some social media output. You know.

Ben Barter: It’s, it’s [00:48:20] so important now. And LinkedIn is I mean, our team lives [00:48:25] on LinkedIn. We’re constantly on there. And whenever we put [00:48:30] stuff out, we get something back from it as well, which is great. I mean, we do have a focus on [00:48:35] we don’t want to be spamming because then we might not get the same return on [00:48:40] it. But how.

Payman Langroudi: Many people are.

Ben Barter: You know, it’s so important. There are there are five of us. Yeah. [00:48:45]

Payman Langroudi: Um, and how many events have you done so far? None at all.

Ben Barter: Or so the Dental Assembly in [00:48:50] September will be our first official one. Now, something that we have done [00:48:55] already, and I think it brings it back to talking about sponsor value as well and not [00:49:00] making it just two days. There’s the social media side. There’s also for us, we do two days [00:49:05] in a foreign country. We don’t have any touch points throughout the year [00:49:10] in um, you know, in London, for example. So we wanted to again, [00:49:15] with the new business with Dental Assembly, we wanted people to have multiple touch [00:49:20] points. Um, so they get that extra value from, I guess [00:49:25] hopefully in a while being like a member of Dental assembly. But, um, we did an [00:49:30] event, uh, at the shard in March and we got all [00:49:35] of our early supporters from across Dental. Um, the [00:49:40] petrol station, which we refer to as energy because a bit nicer term. [00:49:45] Um, and the veterinary industry. We bought all of them together and had a [00:49:50] drinks party. Um, and it was, it was brilliant. It was firstly, [00:49:55] it’s the first time that any of us have seen like multiple different industries come together, which was really cool. [00:50:00] And there was actually, weirdly enough, there was some, a bit of crossover there.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ben Barter: Um, [00:50:05] but also I think it was our first opportunity to say like, this is the standard that we want to set and [00:50:10] we, we want to be continually delivering, um, you know, [00:50:15] strong events in amazing venues and that will continue beyond as well. So we’ll do September, we’ll do [00:50:20] November, but we’ll have more drinks evenings throughout the year where if [00:50:25] people are around, they come along, they, you know, enjoy some free drinks in a great venue [00:50:30] and, and catch up with people that they know, maybe even meet new people as well. So [00:50:35] that’s what we’re trying to do with that.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a good idea.

Ben Barter: Yeah. Um, yeah, September [00:50:40] will be the first official one. Um, and it’s yeah, it’s getting close now.

Payman Langroudi: Looking [00:50:45] forward to it, man. Well, I’m looking forward to it.

Ben Barter: We’re we’re just about to announce. Very exciting. [00:50:50] Yeah. We’re looking forward to having you as, as chair.

Payman Langroudi: Um which that’s going [00:50:55] to be fun. That’s gonna be fun. So tell me, um, we like to talk about mistakes [00:51:00] on this pod. What comes to mind when I ask you about mistakes? It comes from that. [00:51:05] I don’t know if you’ve seen Black box thinking, which is about plane crashes.

Ben Barter: I [00:51:10] haven’t actually. No.

Payman Langroudi: So the idea is this when a plane crashes, they [00:51:15] want to know what went wrong. So they look at the black box and then they [00:51:20] figure out what went wrong. And then the key [00:51:25] point is they do it without blame.

Ben Barter: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, [00:51:30] then they share that information across the whole pilot community and [00:51:35] then they decide what are we going to do differently to stop something like that happening again? Yeah. [00:51:40] So that’s.

Ben Barter: Smart.

Payman Langroudi: That’s plane crashes. Yeah, but with medical mistakes, [00:51:45] it’s quite the opposite. It’s all about blame. Yeah. And so in [00:51:50] general, mistakes people don’t like to talk about. Um, but when they do talk [00:51:55] about it, the idea is that talk about mistakes that we’ve made so we can all learn from them. [00:52:00] Obviously, if you were a dentist, we’d be talking about some clinical error.

Ben Barter: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But what [00:52:05] comes to mind if I say errors? What mistakes have you made that others can learn from, let’s say in business or whatever? [00:52:10] In life?

Ben Barter: Tons of them. Um. Well, I’ll. Yeah. [00:52:15] Um, I think. I [00:52:20] think probably a life one is, [00:52:25] is a better one start. And, and this might sound a bit strange coming [00:52:30] from, uh, you know, a founder of a business, it is, uh, [00:52:35] just about to go past its first full year of operating. But I think from [00:52:40] previous experience, I think letting. I don’t think it’s a good [00:52:45] idea for people to let work [00:52:50] take over their life. I think there’s more to it than that. And [00:52:55] I think in the you know, when we started skin, there was certainly [00:53:00] a period of 6 to 12 months where I let it dictate every single part of my life. [00:53:05] And obviously, you’ve got to be hugely invested [00:53:10] to start a business. Um, but [00:53:15] there is also more to it. And I think certainly as far as I’m concerned, [00:53:20] I do better if I’ve got a bit more balance, if [00:53:25] I’m putting every single thing and all my focus and all my time, all my energy [00:53:30] into, you know, work.

Payman Langroudi: Go on. What were you doing? Were [00:53:35] you spending weekends at the office and this sort of thing?

Ben Barter: I think it [00:53:40] was. Yeah. I mean, there was that, um, and [00:53:45] it wasn’t necessarily always about the number of hours as well. It was about the amount of time that it would occupy. [00:53:50]

Payman Langroudi: Brain hours.

Ben Barter: In my mind. Yeah. And the knock on effects [00:53:55] of that, but also the decisions that I would make.

Payman Langroudi: So did you feel like it affected your health, your [00:54:00] mental health? What what was the sort of effect of it?

Ben Barter: I think it certainly [00:54:05] had me in a less positive frame of mind. Yeah. Certainly. Because especially [00:54:10] when things are things are quite tough and it’s always tough starting a business. [00:54:15]

Payman Langroudi: They always it’s very tough.

Ben Barter: So letting that have an impact [00:54:20] on, on everything outside rather than seeing like [00:54:25] having that balance so that outside.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the answer to that problem, you [00:54:30] could say, all right, spend less time at work and more time at home or something. But [00:54:35] I find the answer to that problem itself is experience of you’ve [00:54:40] seen so many problems come and go that then they stop having the effect [00:54:45] on you that you thought at the beginning. You just haven’t seen enough problems.

Ben Barter: That’s [00:54:50] that’s that’s fair. Yeah. And I think once you’ve seen.

Payman Langroudi: It come and go and, you know, [00:54:55] some toothpaste manufacturer didn’t do what they said they would do and it’s not coming on time. And [00:55:00] I remember the first time that happened, I felt my whole world had fallen apart like it had. Right. [00:55:05] Yeah. We had customers we couldn’t supply to you. And someone had stolen our money on the other side. Something [00:55:10] like this. I thought the whole world was turning upside down. And then once you’ve been 20 years [00:55:15] of these problems, you. I think it’s like a roll with the punches kind of move. [00:55:20]

Ben Barter: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, it’s a problem, but you kind of. You’re carrying on. [00:55:25] Yeah.

Ben Barter: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: So you made a mistake sort of managing [00:55:30] those moving parts, huh?

Ben Barter: I think so, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what would you [00:55:35] have done differently? Not gotten yourself so down about things.

Ben Barter: I would have had more variety in my life, [00:55:40] I think.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I see, I see I became your singular focus.

Ben Barter: Yeah. Um, I think having such [00:55:45] a singular focus doesn’t work for me. And I know that it does. It does work for some people, but I think [00:55:50] I need a bit of variety sometimes. Like you can work on a problem for half [00:55:55] a day, take an hour break from it and come back and it’s [00:56:00] just like, okay, actually, this is how we should.

Payman Langroudi: Actually helps.

Ben Barter: You get past.

Payman Langroudi: The problem. Yeah.

Ben Barter: And by not [00:56:05] actually working on it, the problem is solved. Kind of sounds [00:56:10] contradictory.

Payman Langroudi: But it makes sense. It makes sense. It’s the, you know, the I said this, you know, [00:56:15] Archimedes theory of water displacement. You [00:56:20] do.

Ben Barter: You.

Payman Langroudi: Do. No, you do, you do, you do the guy, the king told him, how do I know this crown is gold? [00:56:25] And he was wearing. His wife told him, look, take a bath. Yeah. And then the crown fell [00:56:30] in the bath and water level raised. And then he ran through the streets Them shouting, Eureka! [00:56:35] Eureka! Because he figured out the density of the metal would move the wall [00:56:40] anyway, that. The point is, the wife told him, take a bath. Yeah, yeah, he. [00:56:45] You know, he relaxed for a second. Um, [00:56:50] and it’s important. It is important. And I hear what you’re saying about some people [00:56:55] thrive on the on the hyper focus. There are people like that, you know, definitely. Um, [00:57:00] I like it, but not not a lot. [00:57:05] I’d like another mistake.

Ben Barter: You want another mistake? Yeah. Do [00:57:10] you want do you want personal or professional? Here.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll leave [00:57:15] it up to you.

Ben Barter: I mean, I can get. I [00:57:20] know I can get quite specific, um.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever [00:57:25] you think.

Ben Barter: But. I [00:57:30] think. Yeah. [00:57:35] I mean, I’ll give you an example of, I don’t know, a, [00:57:40] a mistake that we’ve made at an event. Yeah, [00:57:45] yeah. Um, yeah, I can, I mean, there’s so many examples of that, like [00:57:50] opening.

Payman Langroudi: Up.

Ben Barter: A can of worms. It’s, it’s very difficult to [00:57:55] choose. But and also, I think this comes back to what we were talking about before about [00:58:00] trusting your gut.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben Barter: So, um, we, we [00:58:05] were, we were running an event in Dubai and before the official [00:58:10] event started on the morning of, there was going to be a site visit to this um [00:58:15] petrol station that was 15 minutes, 20 minutes drive away. Um [00:58:20] and we’d organised a big bus to take people and kind of the demand of [00:58:25] it would normally be kind of 20 or 30 people, but actually we’d had huge demand and I think we were expecting [00:58:30] somewhere between 80 and 100. So, um, you know, it was, [00:58:35] it had become a much bigger deal than it, that sort of thing normally would be. And this [00:58:40] is in amongst setting up for the official event as well. And um, we get [00:58:45] to the morning of and I’m like, okay, I’m just going to check in with the bus driver, um, [00:58:50] about an hour before and I give them a call and we have a chat and he’s like, and he’s [00:58:55] struggling to understand what I’m talking about in the beginning, where the booking came from and stuff. [00:59:00] And, and we seem to have worked it out, but just in my gut, I was like, I’m not sure that [00:59:05] that booking is there. I’m not sure that they’re, they’ve got this anyway. [00:59:10] I, I’m like, there’s so much to stress about. I’m just, I’m just gonna leave that. [00:59:15] He said he’s going to come.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Ben Barter: And we get to kind of ten minutes before [00:59:20] and I’m like, I’m just going to call him again. Just check. And at that point he discloses [00:59:25] that actually there’s not been any booking there. And the earliest that they could send somebody [00:59:30] would be in an hour’s time. So I’m like, that [00:59:35] is an absolute nightmare we’ve suddenly got. And the lobby is now filling up [00:59:40] with all of these people expecting to get this bus 20 minute drive away. Um, and [00:59:45] so we’re like, well, shit, what do we do? Um, so we just start. Fortunately, [00:59:50] we’re kind of quite central Dubai. So we just start bundling people into taxis and [00:59:55] get getting them over there. And we managed to get them there. All right. But because of all that stress [01:00:00] going on and then the setup that we needed to do, I just went on my own to [01:00:05] this site visit and then I’m at a petrol station. I’m like this in the middle of nowhere now, [01:00:10] and how am I going to get people back? Like suddenly we need like loads [01:00:15] of taxis to show up and it’s just not going to happen. So I’m desperately, while we’re going [01:00:20] through this site visit, meant to be on the health and safety front as well, managing [01:00:25] 100 people on my own and also trying to sort out the the [01:00:30] bus and.

Payman Langroudi: I’m getting PTSD just hearing this story.

Ben Barter: It does actually turn up [01:00:35] after they have a short window to wait, but it’s yeah, I mean, that that was a case of the mistake [01:00:40] was I had this gut feeling that it wasn’t right and I should have doubled down on that. [01:00:45]

Payman Langroudi: I think one thing with events is there’s a, there are things that have to go right. And [01:00:50] there’s a kind of in your head, a percentage chance that that thing’s going to go wrong. [01:00:55] And if that percentage is more than 20%, [01:01:00] you’ve got to have contingencies for that thing, isn’t it? [01:01:05] And contingency, I it’s the first time I’ve considered contingencies. But but they’re really [01:01:10] important. You know, if if the percentage chance of that thing going wrong is like 40% [01:01:15] contingencies are everything. Right? So, you know, you have to what if it. Yeah. [01:01:20]

Ben Barter: Yeah. If you haven’t asked that question enough, there’s gonna be a big problem. [01:01:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. What would you say is your greatest resource? Like [01:01:30] if you want to, you know, sort of important but not [01:01:35] urgent kind of area where you want to learn about your work. What would be your [01:01:40] resource? Where do you look for business sort of help or I don’t know what you’re into. Are you into [01:01:45] AI or.

Ben Barter: Uh, yes. Yes, but [01:01:50] I think it can be really overused. So I think there is a [01:01:55] balance that needs to be achieved with it. And, um, [01:02:00] I’m certainly on the kind of less reliant end of the scale, but also [01:02:05] seen like some people who use it just all the time and it kind of becomes [01:02:10] almost a way of managing your life, your work, everything. Um, but [01:02:15] AI, I think in terms of learning is actually is, is fantastic. [01:02:20] Um, because I think the way that it can summarise things and how it can guide [01:02:25] in in certain directions, and I can read something [01:02:30] and just ask it a question, which often you’ve got [01:02:35] to go to another person to be able to do that. And obviously that is the best still [01:02:40] is the best way of doing it. But if I had 15 minutes to spare, [01:02:45] and I want to learn something about what’s going on in the dental industry this [01:02:50] week, to be able to use that as a resource to.

Payman Langroudi: But is that to understand? Is that where you go?

Ben Barter: That [01:02:55] would be where I would go. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is there not like an Instagram page, a YouTube or [01:03:00] something, a book?

Ben Barter: There’s a book to be honest. Oh, favourite.

Payman Langroudi: Book? I [01:03:05] mean like business book. Um, novel. Favourite favourite. How to.

Ben Barter: Yeah, [01:03:10] I’m glad you asked me that question because I’ve read shockingly few books in my life. [01:03:15] Um, but I think it’s quite a niche one, but I [01:03:20] think maybe one of the most memorable Would [01:03:25] be that I was on holiday in Greece when I was, I think, just [01:03:30] left school. Just left university.

Payman Langroudi: On holidays when people tend to pick up books. It is. It is. [01:03:35]

Ben Barter: It’s the only time where I would ever pick up a book. Um, but yeah, I just left [01:03:40] university and was kind of thinking about what I wanted to get out of the [01:03:45] next stage of life. Yeah. Um, and, you know, starting a business, being a big [01:03:50] part of that. And I read, um, I read Duncan Bannatyne autobiography [01:03:55] and it just, it had me completely gripped for [01:04:00] 2 or 3 days. And I think it just kind [01:04:05] of maybe gave me a bit of realisation of like, yeah, I really want to start a business [01:04:10] that that’s what.

Payman Langroudi: I.

Ben Barter: Really want to want to do.

Payman Langroudi: You went on Dragon’s Den, right? Always [01:04:15] interesting. In Dragon’s Den. I always find it interesting how different dragons have different [01:04:20] appetites for different risks and different opportunities. And that [01:04:25] Ballantine man, he wants to put the minimum in and get maximum out. Very, [01:04:30] very greedy, but probably the source of his success as well.

Ben Barter: Smart. [01:04:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well, it’s been a massive pleasure, man. I’m gonna [01:04:40] end it with the same question that I ask everyone at the end. It’s a fantasy dinner [01:04:45] party. Three guests, dead or alive.

Ben Barter: Oh, such [01:04:50] a difficult question. That one. Um, and I feel like it always it can [01:04:55] often change the answer to this as well. But I [01:05:00] would say first off, I’m, I’m a big football fan, um, [01:05:05] big Liverpool fan. And I would because.

Payman Langroudi: Your dad.

Ben Barter: Was to [01:05:10] know actually.

Payman Langroudi: How did you become Liverpool fan?

Ben Barter: Just really random. Um, [01:05:15] but I joined a new school when I was five years old I think. And [01:05:20] um everybody there was really into football, and I barely even knew it was a [01:05:25] sport. And the people that I was trying to make friends with were asking, who do you support? So I [01:05:30] just turned the question back on them. I said, who do you support? And he said, Liverpool. One guy. And [01:05:35] I said, oh, me too. Yeah. And that was that. And I think within [01:05:40] two years I had become absolutely obsessed and he wasn’t [01:05:45] into football at all. So it’s really weird. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So who’s your Liverpool hero.

Ben Barter: Uh [01:05:50] Jurgen Klopp. I think he well [01:05:55] he’s he’s managed the team. That’s uh yeah. Given [01:06:00] me a lot of joy. Um but I think just as it’s actually as a person, I [01:06:05] think like he’s a ridiculously seems like a ridiculously good [01:06:10] leader. He’s very charismatic man. I think he’d be great fun and [01:06:15] also really interesting and yeah, very good teeth. Yeah [01:06:20] yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And he’s he’s going to become Germany’s, uh, [01:06:25] manager.

Ben Barter: So I’m hearing. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which yeah, my lucky, my two best friends are [01:06:30] Liverpool fans and they also adore Jurgen Klopp. How could you. I thought you [01:06:35] were going to say like I don’t know Bill Shankly or something. No no no dog [01:06:40] leash. Okay, cool. So who else?

Ben Barter: Um. I [01:06:45] definitely have my mum. My mum? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is she still with us? [01:06:50]

Ben Barter: No, she passed away last year, sadly. So definitely have her. [01:06:55] I think that’s enough, to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:07:00] might as well include Gandhi or Einstein or God.

Ben Barter: Could be.

Payman Langroudi: Who could be.

Ben Barter: The plus [01:07:05] one.

Payman Langroudi: Mums come with Gandhi. Yeah.

Ben Barter: Yeah. [01:07:10] Not a bad shout. Um, I tell I tell you what. Actually this is probably [01:07:15] not one that would would like stand the test of time, but right now, um, [01:07:20] I’ve got a lot of time for Pedro Sanchez, the Spanish prime minister. [01:07:25] Yeah, yeah, I think he’s a great guy. I like the way he stands.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [01:07:30] I liked him, I liked him, I liked what he was doing about Gaza and all that. Um, but [01:07:35] then I spoke to two different Spanish people, and [01:07:40] both of them were really like, uh, I don’t know, they were saying he’s a bit too left wing or something, [01:07:45] something like that. I wasn’t really paying attention. But you’re right from the outside, without talking to [01:07:50] these two, I really liked it the way he would. Just like principle that which you don’t see much anymore. [01:07:55]

Ben Barter: Yeah. I think he’s not afraid to speak up for what he believes in. And I think it’s really like I can [01:08:00] understand why people wouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ben Barter: Why it’s hard, I think. [01:08:05] But I’ve got a lot more time for people who do.

Payman Langroudi: Where did you grow up?

Ben Barter: Um, [01:08:10] I grew up in the countryside in Buckinghamshire. Oh, yeah. What, [01:08:15] like.

Payman Langroudi: The sort of the stockbroker belt bit. Or which bit [01:08:20] was it?

Ben Barter: I’m not familiar with that part. No. Um. Kind of between Buckinghamshire and Northamptonshire. [01:08:25] Oxfordshire. That that sort of area. Okay. Um. Yeah. Really nice. Like [01:08:30] countryside. Spent an awful lot of time outside. Um and.

Payman Langroudi: Until [01:08:35] you were 18 you were out there.

Ben Barter: Until I was 18. Yeah. Yeah. Um [01:08:40] and then.

Payman Langroudi: Uni was where.

Ben Barter: Uni was Oxford Brookes. So I didn’t exactly go [01:08:45] far. Um which was great. Yeah. Because I was like an hour away from home. Perfect. But [01:08:50] I had my independence.

Payman Langroudi: In a way, I guess. Right. It’s going to be, it’s going to be a great uni [01:08:55] tail.

Ben Barter: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Um, no, I loved it there. And to be [01:09:00] honest, it’s probably somewhere that I would consider, like, ending up. Really? Yeah. [01:09:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful.

Ben Barter: Great place to live. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And big enough as well. You know, I like Cambridge, but it’s small. [01:09:10] Yeah. You know, you can’t get everything there. Yeah. Oxford’s a proper city isn’t it?

Ben Barter: It is, it [01:09:15] is. Um. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Traffic jams.

Ben Barter: A lot of traffic jams. [01:09:20] Yeah. Yeah. I think they’re closed. They’re closing even more roads. It’s like you can barely drive in there [01:09:25] anymore.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive pleasure, man. Thank you so much for coming all the way.

Ben Barter: Well, thank you.

Payman Langroudi: For having me. Best of luck. [01:09:30] I know you’ve been in this industry a few years, but at the end of the day, it’s your first few [01:09:35] years in a business and you need all the luck you can get in that [01:09:40] point in time, right?

Ben Barter: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: I look back at that time I called firefighting, firefighting. [01:09:45] It just feels like it was one fire after another. Yeah. So really, I like what you’re doing with it. Well [01:09:50] done man.

Ben Barter: Thank you, I appreciate that.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure [01:09:55] you tune in for future episodes. Hit subscribe in iTunes or Google [01:10:00] Play or whatever platform it is. And you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you [01:10:05] would, um, give us.

Payman Langroudi: A six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. That’s [01:10:10] what I always leave my Uber driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.