Kevin Shannon discusses leaving dentistry to focus on his dental software startup, DigitalTCO.

Kevin shares how his frustration with the inefficiencies of dental note-taking and a difficult patient complaint inspired him to create DigitalTCO, which uses AI to automatically generate clinical notes and consent forms from audio recordings of patient consultations. 

He taught himself to code to build the software, which is now used by over 350 dental practices.


In This Episode

00:01:10 – Backstory

00:16:10 – Discovering dentistry

00:20:35 – Dental school

00:22:25 – Early jobs

00:27:30 – Frustrations

00:38:00 – Digital TCO

00:56:35 – Digital TCO vision

01:00:50 – Technical aspects

01:05:20 – Scaling and growth

01:09:25 – Last days and legacy


About Kevin Shannon

Kevin Shannon is the founder of DigitalTCO, the dental notetaking software used by hundreds of UK practices.

Kevin Shannon: So it’s like it’s simply what it is is it’s, uh, some buttons and each one says, like, composite [00:00:05] bridge, crown, whatever, all your different treatments. Yeah. And then you just put the patient’s name [00:00:10] in on the website interface type thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. On the website interface. [00:00:15] So then you just log on under that, click the button. Whatever treatments you want to do composite [00:00:20] bridge extraction hit generate and then gives you a big form just [00:00:25] like an under 10s. So I posted that on people are like oh and it generated a bit. It’s funny when I posted [00:00:30] that I was like so like, oh my god, are they going to delete my post? Am I going to? I was so anxious about the film thing, thinking, [00:00:35] people are going to think I’m an idiot anyway. And then I ended up with like over 200 dentists in [00:00:40] the Facebook group and in the WhatsApp group. So I was like, okay, like there’s something, there’s something in this here.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:50] is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go [00:00:55] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:01:00] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:01:05]

Kevin Shannon: Ladies and gentlemen, it gives me great pleasure [00:01:10] to.

Prav Solanki: Introduce Kevin Shannon on the Dental Leaders podcast. [00:01:15] And Kevin came across my radar, I think [00:01:20] by accident really. And it’s through jazz variety. So he I [00:01:25] was on Instagram and then he put this post up saying digital TCO, I’ll [00:01:30] never have to write notes again. And I thought, you know what? If someone else has said [00:01:35] that this is just sort of a load of bollocks, but with jazz, when he puts something out [00:01:40] there and he talks about a product, I know it’s going to be high quality. So what I did is [00:01:45] I signed up for a free trial for digital TCO because it was curious and nosy, [00:01:50] nosy, and because I’m in the software development game, I thought, let me see what this is all [00:01:55] about. And I pretended to be a patient and I dentist. Sorry. And I, [00:02:00] um, press record on this thing and it got the transcription band gone, which for a [00:02:05] mancunian is really, really tricky and strange. And in addition to that, it [00:02:10] sparked a load of notes and I was really impressed by it. And [00:02:15] so I picked up the phone and spoke to jazz and he said, listen, mate, this is game changer for me. [00:02:20] And I’m at the moment preparing for a talk I’m going to [00:02:25] give at Clearcorrect Elevating Excellence event. And I’m talking about [00:02:30] the ultimate Clearcorrect consultation or clear aligner or orthodontic [00:02:35] consultation. Call it whatever you want. Um, and I thought, actually, you know what? I [00:02:40] want to learn how something like digital TCO would stop you ever writing [00:02:45] notes again. And we’re going to talk about what digital TCO is. But and Kevin, before [00:02:50] we get stuck into this, welcome to the podcast. And we just like to just [00:02:55] get a little bit of information about sort of where you grew up, um, [00:03:00] what your upbringing was like. So welcome to the podcast. You just like to start by just [00:03:05] telling us about your upbringing, where you were born, brothers and sisters, sort of family you [00:03:10] were born into. Yeah.

Kevin Shannon: Thanks, Prav. Uh, thanks for having me on. Um, yeah. [00:03:15] So I grew up in a little town outside Glasgow. It’s called Kilsyth. It’s [00:03:20] literally right on the on the hills. So from from the back of where I grew up, it’s [00:03:25] just like up into the hills. Into the Campsie hills. Like a beautiful place to grow up. So we grew [00:03:30] up a lot, you know, climbing trees, running about, playing about outside, all that kind of stuff. Had [00:03:35] a really good upbringing. We didn’t I didn’t really come from any money at anything at all, single parent family. [00:03:40] So my mum brought up me and my brother. But we have a really close family, [00:03:45] not massive family. My mum’s got three sisters a bit, you know, so my cousins and you [00:03:50] know, it was a really good, um, a really good upbringing. Didn’t have a lot of money but didn’t know it, [00:03:55] if you know what I mean.

Prav Solanki: Totally get it, Kevin. And then when you say you had a close family, were they close [00:04:00] in proximity as well? Were you mucking about with your cousins and your aunties and your and your uncles [00:04:05] and stuff like that, or really quite far. You know, you said you were just climbing trees and stuff. [00:04:10] Was that with sort of with sort of fat, close family who live nearby. [00:04:15]

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. Well, some live nearby. And then my grandparents, they left a little bit further away, some [00:04:20] other cousins that lived further away. But my grandmother always take is like, you know, like, you know, six, [00:04:25] seven of us away up in like caravan holidays for like weeks during the summer as well. So [00:04:30] yeah like just had had a really good, had a really good childhood. I would wouldn’t [00:04:35] change a thing. Happy childhood. Happy childhood indeed.

Prav Solanki: You mentioned something there like you didn’t [00:04:40] have you didn’t come from money. You didn’t have money, but you didn’t realise it or know it [00:04:45] either. And what makes you think back now, reflecting from today, looking [00:04:50] backwards and say, well, we didn’t have money. And how would [00:04:55] you describe that if you were to just sort of say, well, why? Why do you even say that?

Kevin Shannon: I [00:05:00] think it’s important because it gives me quite a lot of drive to do all this [00:05:05] stuff. It’s always kind of given me a drive. I think I’ve got a natural natural [00:05:10] intelligence that, you know, a gift that I’ve been given. And yeah, [00:05:15] I think that’s really just the main thing. It’s just I’ve got this drive that comes from that, [00:05:20] a stubbornness. It may be sometimes a bit too much of an ego that occurs [00:05:25] because of that, because I’m like, I’ve, you know, I’m I’m going to do this because of this, this. And the next [00:05:30] thing if you don’t want me.

Prav Solanki: Is there a part of you, Kevin, that says, I had nothing and I’ve got a band. And [00:05:35] to prove this, that I can do this on my own. I can come from nothing and [00:05:40] have a success story, or I want to just do better for myself because I’ve [00:05:45] had that. I don’t want to say struggle, but because it doesn’t sound like you did struggle [00:05:50] as a child because you said you had a very happy childhood and you didn’t know it. [00:05:55] And I think, I think that in itself is pretty amazing that, um, [00:06:00] you know, happiness doesn’t revolve around things. And, you know, you [00:06:05] can have so much fun climbing trees and looking around like we did on that as kids. [00:06:10] We were just bombing around on BMX and skateboards and stuff like that and getting [00:06:15] it getting into trouble. Yeah, we didn’t have money, right? We, you know, we didn’t [00:06:20] even get the caravan holidays. Right. And I remember we did like holidays didn’t exist and going [00:06:25] abroad was just it was something so foreign that it didn’t happen. Right. But [00:06:30] me and my brother and our mates, we used to muck around with really happy childhood and we [00:06:35] didn’t have money, but we also weren’t surrounded by friends who had it either, so we didn’t know [00:06:40] what we were missing, if that makes sense.

Prav Solanki: But looking back now and I think about what my children [00:06:45] have got sometimes I think the spoilt sometimes I think wouldn’t be good [00:06:50] for them to have a similar upbringing to us. But at the same respect I look at and think, well, I want to give them what I [00:06:55] didn’t have is that it’s always a constant sort of internal battle I have with myself [00:07:00] for, you know, with yourself. Was was there ever any time as a kid [00:07:05] where you thought, hmm, be nice if I had this or had that? Or was we just totally oblivious [00:07:10] to it? And secondly, like you, you say you’ve got this drive now, right? Does [00:07:15] that does that have its roots in the fact that, well, I’ve come from nothing and I’m going [00:07:20] to prove it to either myself or the world or whatever. You mentioned your ego, but I’m going to [00:07:25] I’m going to do this.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. Um, yeah. I think you touched you touched on something, [00:07:30] I think when you said, like, you know, oh, I’m going to do this, do this myself. And I was like, yeah, I [00:07:35] think that’s that’s probably my own. This isn’t directly answering that question, but I think sometimes that’s to my own detriment. [00:07:40] Um, that I do that I need to be able to open up things up [00:07:45] more and connect. With with more things, more people to [00:07:50] help with it further myself because like, yeah, I think I’ve been quite narrow focus. I can do this and [00:07:55] do this alone because that’s the way I’ve always had to be essentially. Mhm.

Prav Solanki: I guess the thrust [00:08:00] of my question is, does the fact that you’ve come from not very much drive [00:08:05] you to be even more. Is that a driving force for you from, for me growing [00:08:10] up it was part of that. It was part I was brought up in a single parent family as well. But my [00:08:15] it was my dad, not my mum. And there was two driving factors for me. [00:08:20] One was we had nothing and I’m gonna I’m gonna build a future here, right? And I’m [00:08:25] going to be successful, whatever successful means. And that definition of success has changed for me over the years. [00:08:30] But also I wanted to make my dad proud. Yeah, I wanted [00:08:35] to do right by him. And I’ve always seeks my father’s [00:08:40] approval, and he has been a massive driving force in me [00:08:45] doing what I do even today. Yeah, as a 46 year old adult, [00:08:50] I still seek my father’s approval for things that I really [00:08:55] shouldn’t have to do. You see what I mean? Is there any sort of parallels there for you? [00:09:00]

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, I think it’s a lot about, you know, looking after my mum and my [00:09:05] mum’s just done everything for me and my brother. You know, it’s [00:09:10] unconditional love, you know, thankless thanklessly just doing so much stuff. [00:09:15] You know, it’s just you could never you could never repay that. So [00:09:20] I think that’s like a big, a big factor. But I’ve kind of had the drive [00:09:25] but then lost the drive and then refound the drive again. I think it’s really what’s happened in [00:09:30] my life, just as things became a bit routine. And so I feel like there is that aspect of it, [00:09:35] but there’s also the aspect now where I just because it’s my own [00:09:40] frustrations and things, it’s I want to be able to help other people. And as I’m and as I’m seeing how this [00:09:45] thing is helping other people, it’s just pushing me on even more. So. Yeah, it’s interesting [00:09:50] because I don’t know exactly what it’s about. It’s just right now pretty [00:09:55] much a complete obsession. Like it’s just constantly on my mind, if [00:10:00] you know what I mean.

Prav Solanki: So just going back to your childhood. So what what did mum do [00:10:05] as bringing up two young boys? What what is it that you in terms [00:10:10] of how does she make ends meet when when you were younger? Just, just I just want to paint [00:10:15] a picture of what that was like growing up in a single parent family in Scotland. [00:10:20] And what you went with, what you went with out, and what mum was doing at that time [00:10:25] to give you where you are today.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. Well, um, my [00:10:30] mom worked as a dental and a medical receptionist, so she was she [00:10:35] did a few different jobs, things before that, but then, then she started doing that. But we didn’t live in like, a, [00:10:40] like a nice area as well either. It was pretty, pretty rough. Like, the street was [00:10:45] pretty rough and but you know, we were kind of always sheltered from that [00:10:50] just, you know, she really brought us up well, taught us, you know, [00:10:55] just manners and how to be, you know, reasonable people.

Prav Solanki: Hey. [00:11:00]

Kevin Shannon: And then both me and my brother are, you [00:11:05] know, successful in what? In what we do. But we like [00:11:10] we like the thing that we do. And if I look around about, you know, in that street that other people who are there, [00:11:15] you know, I can maybe name one other person who’s maybe got out of that. And that’s I think that’s [00:11:20] the thing is, like, she she’s given us the route out of there. You’ve broke [00:11:25] out.

Prav Solanki: You’ve broken out of that circle cycle, whatever it is of your [00:11:30] local environment and do well, whereas other kids maybe [00:11:35] haven’t or have gone down the wrong path. Right. And as I’m talking to you, Kevin, I’m thinking [00:11:40] about my own childhood because me and my brother were brought up on in on [00:11:45] the back of quite a rough estate. And it was literally, you know, whether people [00:11:50] were getting into scraps, selling drugs, getting expelled from school, all [00:11:55] of the above. And although we hung around in that environment [00:12:00] and knew everyone, dad always used to push education. And he’s like, listen, [00:12:05] I don’t want you to be like these guys, right? I want you to build a future, and I don’t [00:12:10] want you to do what I do. So we had a corner shop, he drove taxis, [00:12:15] he worked in factories, but he he did everything he could. And it sounds [00:12:20] like he mum did the same to break us out of that sort of cycle. So just [00:12:25] talk me through. What is it? What does your brother do and at what point did you decide [00:12:30] I’m going to be a medical dental professional?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. My brother, he’s [00:12:35] a barber, which is interesting because back in the day, a barber and a dentist were the same thing. [00:12:40]

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Kevin Shannon: He’s gifted in other [00:12:45] ways. Like, I’m not really so good with people, like, because [00:12:50] I liked it, you know, have to think things through. And I could do all that kind [00:12:55] of stuff. And he is a very, very good with people. So he’s [00:13:00] manages and runs this, you know, these barber shops. So he’s very, [00:13:05] very good at that. That’s doing great.

Prav Solanki: What’s the age gap between you both covered.

Kevin Shannon: Three years. [00:13:10]

Prav Solanki: Right. All the younger.

Kevin Shannon: He’s the younger brother and the older brother. The younger brother [00:13:15] right.

Prav Solanki: That’s really interesting. So my dad is younger than me. I’m [00:13:20] okay with people, but my brother’s a lot better. A lot better. Yeah. Yeah, he’s [00:13:25] got the gift of the gab. He’s a social butterfly. It’s really interesting [00:13:30] that, um, I am a little bit more. I definitely more academic than my brother, [00:13:35] for sure. Yeah, but you put us both in a room with [00:13:40] a group of people. He will work that room, work that audience, and it will. [00:13:45] We’re like chalk and cheese in that respect. He’s so much better than me socially. Yeah. [00:13:50]

Kevin Shannon: And that’s, I think, coming back to them, coming back to my mum again about that because I went to school [00:13:55] and then I just, you know, straight straight, everything’s just all this. So then when he was going through [00:14:00] school, teachers would try and compare my brother to me. Yeah. And [00:14:05] my mum just would never stand for it. You know, you’re two different people. Really [00:14:10] an asset and he was never pressured that you have to do this or have to do that. Like she allowed us to just [00:14:15] be your be yourselves.

Prav Solanki: It’s funny. And you look back at that and I think [00:14:20] that, you know, your mom’s almost like doing everything that these parenting books tell you to do now, and all these sort [00:14:25] of things of how you bring children up and stuff, right, is to raise you to be to very decent human [00:14:30] beings and be the best of who you are. Right? So talk me through [00:14:35] the dentistry side of things. When did that so you were at school and you were smashing your grades, [00:14:40] right? You were. Whether you were working hard, revising or whatever you had was tuned in. I [00:14:45] can get me A’s and me A’s and all the rest of it. So I guess career options [00:14:50] were open to you. And what made you choose at what point during sort of school and that, did [00:14:55] you decide? Right? I mean, they were doing this.

Kevin Shannon: I was thinking about doing [00:15:00] maths. Um, okay. First of all, that was my kind of my first [00:15:05] thought. And then my cousin, she was working as a dental therapist and [00:15:10] she was like, oh, um, come in and just see what I do. So then I went in there [00:15:15] and then I went back, you know, and just did a bit of shadowing. Right. So this seems to be quite a good, a good thing. And I just thought, okay, [00:15:20] well I’ll do that. I thought about doing medicine as well, but I didn’t like the idea of which is this is a funny [00:15:25] thing, which I guess we can come back to, um, that I didn’t like the idea of I [00:15:30] don’t want to have to go through all this stuff and not really get a job until I’m in my, you know, early [00:15:35] get my real job until I’m in my early 30s. Um, yeah. So I kind [00:15:40] of liked the idea I could go and do that and do the dentistry. But what feels like what’s happened is that is exactly what’s happened. [00:15:45] I feel like the dentistry was just like this kind of thing that I did, and now I’ve found my real job. [00:15:50] Yeah. So, yeah, it’s kind of funny.

Prav Solanki: Um, and, um, [00:15:55] so at what point? So you did this work experience. What? At what point did you say. Yeah, I’m. [00:16:00] At what age? What what age were you at? What stage in your education were you where you were [00:16:05] sort of yeah, I’m going to be a dentist.

Kevin Shannon: Like 16 years old.

Prav Solanki: Wow. [00:16:10] And what was it? Was it that was it at that [00:16:15] stage that. It’s a career where I could make a decent living. Was [00:16:20] it? I’ve been on work experience and I’ve seen the patient interaction in the journey, and I want to do that. [00:16:25] Was it. I want to fix things like teeth. What? What was it at that age [00:16:30] that made you say, yeah, I’m at the dentist?

Kevin Shannon: I think it was all just a bit of of all, all of [00:16:35] that. The working with. I like the idea of being able to do things with my hands and make things. [00:16:40] I like that. Yeah. And then the money. Funny thing is, when you’re applying, you don’t [00:16:45] speak about the money. You know, it’s like, don’t don’t mention the money. But really. Yeah, it was very [00:16:50] much forefront in my mind. Yeah, I could do this job and I’ll do this and it’s like a 9 to 5 job and blah [00:16:55] blah blah. That was my thinking at the time. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Um, and you can make a few quid. [00:17:00] Going back to my brother, it was everything. It was just about money for him. That was it. So [00:17:05] he did work experience with a dentist. That dentist played [00:17:10] golf on a weekend, and he took my brother to play golf. He drove a really flashy Mercedes at [00:17:15] the time. And, you know, like like like we we grew up with [00:17:20] with, with no money. So my dad had a really rusty Ford Escort where [00:17:25] the bumper was hanging off. And then to see someone pull up in a Mercedes was like, wow, do [00:17:30] you know what I mean? That guy has made it. And so my brother was held back because I am going to become [00:17:35] that dentist. I’m going to make that money and I’m going to have that life. And so that was the the but you don’t [00:17:40] talk about it during the application process, do you? Uh, no. Even even though that’s [00:17:45] the that’s the driving force. And do you think that that coming from where you come sort of motivated [00:17:50] you further in terms of making that decision that actually, do you know what I’m going to break out of this [00:17:55] cycle? Yeah.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, yeah. And then and [00:18:00] then doing it, you know, going to university, it was just like just so much fun. [00:18:05] It was just absolutely brilliant. What did you go? At Dundee.

Prav Solanki: Dundee. [00:18:10] Okay, so not too far from home.

Kevin Shannon: Not. Not too far away from home, but also the only place [00:18:15] I got in. Right.

Prav Solanki: Okay, okay, so we went through [00:18:20] the application process. Was it interviews back then or was it just paper exercise or what [00:18:25] was the process like?

Kevin Shannon: My my interview was how did you get here? I got the [00:18:30] bus. Right. Okay. There’s a there’s a bus. Fine. I was like, yep. Okay. See [00:18:35] you in August. You know, it was like it was nothing complicated. It was as easy as that. [00:18:40] Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Prav Solanki: And so what was what was dental school like for you in Dundee [00:18:45] in terms of mixture of between work and fun and all the rest of it. And then [00:18:50] I sort of like the first time you were like properly away from home.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. So [00:18:55] it was like 17 moved out of the house, you know, moved away up. You’re up there. It [00:19:00] was quite good because pretty much everybody in the year, there was no one really from Dundee. Everybody [00:19:05] was from all over the place. So a good mix of people. Um, yeah. [00:19:10] It was just it was a fantastic, fantastic time. Just a lot of drinking and a lot of partying, a [00:19:15] lot of then a lot of late nights in the library, uh, and then.

Prav Solanki: Squeeze through your [00:19:20] exams. And during that time, when you were at uni, did you know what you wanted to do in dentistry? [00:19:25] Did you have an idea? I want to be a business owner or I wanted to do cosmetic dentistry. I’d [00:19:30] like to niche down on this. Or are you too focussed on partying [00:19:35] and drinking at the time?

Kevin Shannon: No, I thought, I thought I really, I thought I wanted [00:19:40] to be the best that I, that I could be in this. Yeah, I did think about at some point where I’ll go down the route [00:19:45] of this funny thinking now, but I’ll go down the route of like, you know, being a consultant in something [00:19:50] or being a specialist. Um, I did always want to have my own business. I always wanted [00:19:55] to, I thought I always wanted to own a practice as well. So that’s what. [00:20:00] That’s what I thought when I graduated, I thought, well, go and do the vet and [00:20:05] then we’ll see what happens. And then as I started doing that, I was thinking more about, [00:20:10] okay, well maybe get the business and whatnot. But then my thoughts on that started to change over time, really. [00:20:15]

Prav Solanki: So walk me through a potted history if you get your dental degree. [00:20:20] What happened next in terms of first job, second job, [00:20:25] whatever, and how dentistry panned out for you in that first job, was it what you [00:20:30] expected? Just talk me through your career since graduating.

Kevin Shannon: Wasn’t [00:20:35] what I expected. I mean, I guess it was what I expected. You’re doing the work. But that’s [00:20:40] really when I realised that I really had to kind of separate [00:20:45] out the day job from the night thing and not be bringing that home. I realised very quickly, [00:20:50] like, I can’t be bringing this stuff home, you know, when I’m like in. You’ve [00:20:55] made it, you’ve done a crown and it’s like not fitting in and you’ve had to do like six revisions on this crown [00:21:00] for this patient or whatever, because you’re just absolutely useless. You can’t just be like letting that go [00:21:05] through your head constantly at night. And so I did that job for a year. [00:21:10] And then I wanted to that was up in Dundee. And then I wanted to move back down to, to [00:21:15] Glasgow. So then I just, I took a job down and stayed here, but it was like a brand new, um, squat [00:21:20] practice that had opened up, but it was very NHS area. So [00:21:25] I was working like six days a week and hardly making anything because it was just extractions and NHS dentures.

Prav Solanki: And [00:21:30] did you, did you move back to Glasgow to be close back, close to mum or [00:21:35] family. What was the what pulled you back?

Kevin Shannon: Um, I just wanted to be down here. [00:21:40]

Prav Solanki: I guess you want to see that as you always seen that as home that draws [00:21:45] you back in terms of this is where home is or.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, this [00:21:50] is the home. But I just kind of wanted I’d never because we’d lived in Kilsyth. I hadn’t really lived in the city down here before. [00:21:55] So I just wanted to like, live down here in the city and see what it’s all about. So. [00:22:00] So we did that. We moved down here, did that job for [00:22:05] a for a year, and then I got offered pretty good job. Um, with good [00:22:10] dentist who was building up a group of practices. So it’s all [00:22:15] the marketing, the sales. Everything’s all really well organised. [00:22:20]

Prav Solanki: Who was that?

Kevin Shannon: Mark skimming.

Prav Solanki: I know that, yeah, yeah. [00:22:25] Hey, free group.

Kevin Shannon: Pain free group.

Prav Solanki: Yeah yeah yeah I know Mark. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. [00:22:30]

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. Give me that really good opportunity at that job in there. [00:22:35] And so because working with Mark then it was I was just doing a lot of courses [00:22:40] and learning a lot more and just trying to, just trying to really better myself with. With dentistry [00:22:45] and just trying to trying to do that. But, you know, I would just I think then I started to let things [00:22:50] get to me a bit too much with patients that are like, what? People [00:22:55] not liking the danger that you’ve, that there’s nothing wrong with it. And, uh, you [00:23:00] know, this, these kind of things. Um, and I didn’t I just didn’t get on with the manager [00:23:05] in there as well. And it’s upon reflection, when I look back at it now, you know, it’s [00:23:10] it’s on me, really. And it’s just because of. This is why what I’m [00:23:15] doing now really suits me, because I like to have the thing in my head and then and then go [00:23:20] for it. When I’m getting loads and loads of questions about why are you doing that with the Buddha? We can’t do that. But I’ve it [00:23:25] was just too much butting of heads because I’ve got my own ideas about things and I don’t really like [00:23:30] being told what to do. It’s taken a long time for me to realise that and accept that, [00:23:35] I think. Um, but yeah. So then after that I left there because I [00:23:40] just really couldn’t handle that anymore. Um, and then I got [00:23:45] another job. But that job. Then what happened as lockdown hit? So that was just like [00:23:50] a year and a half of, like, just floating about.

Prav Solanki: So before we go on to that, Kevin, the [00:23:55] Mark Simmons practice, did you start making money there? Yes. Is that [00:24:00] the first time in your life where you thought to myself, Now I’m making money?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. [00:24:05] Yeah, we did like, we did like, a lot of good things. You know, we had a lot of a [00:24:10] lot of a lot of fun, a lot of nice places. Seen a lot of good food eaten and all that. Just [00:24:15] a totally opposite life from what I’d grown up into. Totally [00:24:20] different world. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: And so at that point where you’d sort of said, right. [00:24:25] Was that a point you said, right, this the future is great. Now I’ve cracked it. I’m making money. [00:24:30] It’s great. Obviously, I’m bashing heads with people here in this role. And, you know, [00:24:35] on reflection, it’s me. Back then, maybe you didn’t realise that and you moved on, but it was at [00:24:40] this point in your life where you thought, I can make a few quid in this career now of I’ve made it. Was [00:24:45] that a sort of a and then it was like that was it at that point you sort of said, well, I can afford these luxuries [00:24:50] and stuff like that. Was that the turning point around that time where you went from that NHC [00:24:55] type role to this?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, I think so. But I don’t really know if it was like a like [00:25:00] a turning point, really, because I feel like I feel like I [00:25:05] didn’t really funny to say, like I didn’t really appreciate it so [00:25:10] much because I don’t think that I really enjoyed the job. I [00:25:15] didn’t it didn’t equate in my mind, you know, it didn’t equate [00:25:20] my mind that I’m going these things here are then given me this money. It was like, I need to do this job, and then [00:25:25] I’ve got this money. And like there was no happiness really in amongst it. It [00:25:30] wasn’t it wasn’t a fulfilling thing for me. Um, is.

Prav Solanki: Is that because you were [00:25:35] stressed in your role and you were having a hard time and you were bashing heads and pissed off that people didn’t like your dentures, [00:25:40] and that was mixed in with the money. And so the happiness you used [00:25:45] to get from having £0.30 in your pocket and bumming around on BMX and [00:25:50] climbing trees was a totally different thing for you.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, [00:25:55] yeah, I think I’m just not suited for it. It’s not my vocation [00:26:00] and that’s it. It’s dentistry is a vocation and I’ve and I’ve, I’ve done this thing and it’s not always meant to do [00:26:05] long term. Okay, because I think one of the things [00:26:10] that I just that I don’t particularly enjoy is hopefully having that list [00:26:15] of patients in front of me and going, I need to do all of this before I can [00:26:20] get home. Just it’s, you know, because I’m, I like to do things quickly. [00:26:25] And if I’m, if I have to see a patient and then there’s a bit of a gap or, you know, I’ve preferred the days when it was just [00:26:30] jam packed full. You get three patients in three different rooms and you’re running around about just, you know, like, yeah, [00:26:35] yeah. Because then the days going by quick, you know, if it was a bit of a, there’s a bit of a loner. [00:26:40] It’s just like sitting around going, oh come on, you know I could be doing this. I could be doing that, you know, all [00:26:45] these other things. Yeah. So what happened next?

Prav Solanki: You left that role and you got another, [00:26:50] another role somewhere else.

Kevin Shannon: Is that right? Yeah, I got another role. It was like a Covid. I just, I think [00:26:55] that was like a Covid year or Covid year in a bit. So that was like just, you know, bumming [00:27:00] around pretty much. And yeah. And then I got another I got another [00:27:05] good private job. And then that ended up pretty much in the same fashion. Uh, okay. You know, [00:27:10] not, you know, not not getting on with the managers again. Same same thing. So [00:27:15] then that’s where, you know, there’s a bit of a repetitive pattern here. Maybe, uh, me [00:27:20] maybe, maybe, maybe I am the problem and not everybody else. Yeah. Yeah. [00:27:25]

Prav Solanki: Um, yeah.

Kevin Shannon: So then I got this other, this other job, which I really actually enjoyed. [00:27:30] But then, you know, again.

Prav Solanki: Where was where was the other job? It’s still [00:27:35] still in and around Scotland, Glasgow, where it.

Kevin Shannon: Is around these bits. And I got this job and I really enjoyed [00:27:40] it. And, um, I was kind of building things up and it was getting like quite good. And [00:27:45] then, um, we were just chatting before and you were talking about how you got to this stage [00:27:50] and you just fired all the customers. So, you know, by this, by this point, I’m getting to that [00:27:55] point of like, patients are coming in, I’m going, I don’t want to work with you. Really. Um, and [00:28:00] I’ve had the had you’re talking about these dangers.

Prav Solanki: Why. So I’ve [00:28:05] got a couple of questions in and around this job that you really like. Why did you really like [00:28:10] it? Was the manager in sync with you at that time was, you know. Yes. Because it seems [00:28:15] it seems like the reason why you left these roles is you were butting heads with the manager, right? And [00:28:20] then you get into this role and you’ve just said, I really liked this. Now, was it because you were doing better dentistry, [00:28:25] making more money, or was it just that you had an easier time? Was getting less shit off your manager? What what [00:28:30] made you say that? I really enjoyed this job.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, I had a bit more freedom. Everything. [00:28:35] Everything at the end of the day comes back to me now about freedom. The [00:28:40] freedom to make the decisions, essentially. So yeah, we we had we could we could have the conversations, [00:28:45] we could work things out. And yeah, it was good that way. And. [00:28:50]

Prav Solanki: So you’re in this role. Manager’s not giving [00:28:55] you any grief. You’re enjoying it. And then you turn around. So you turn around. I’ll probably say this to a patient, I [00:29:00] don’t want to work with you, but in your mind, you may think it. I just don’t want to see this. I don’t want to treat [00:29:05] this patient. Whatever. So what? Just talk me through that and what I can next.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. [00:29:10] So I just said to the patient, you know, look, as you should see, [00:29:15] there’s a breakdown in the patient dentist relationship here. I don’t think that [00:29:20] I’m the best dentist for you. Yeah. You don’t seem to be happy with what I’m providing you, [00:29:25] even though you. I’ve asked you multiple times and you’re saying. Yes, but, you know, just [00:29:30] nothing was matching up. Um. And I was like, this is just a complaint waiting to happen. So [00:29:35] I said that I’ll help you find an identity or whatever, blah, blah, blah. And [00:29:40] they just did not like that. It was it was almost like, uh, from [00:29:45] from how I, how I was or what [00:29:50] the situations have happened in these other practices with these managers, how we butted heads, [00:29:55] then we butted heads with the patient. But this time it was like, you know, I [00:30:00] was getting it. This thing is my is my karma. That’s what [00:30:05] it felt like. So they began a tirade that lasted. [00:30:10] By Tay Tay ten months, 11 months [00:30:15] of just complaints. And they were [00:30:20] just essentially just poking everything just until they could find the, the, the link [00:30:25] in the chain. Um, but then again, I’d, [00:30:30] I’d found out from the indemnity that the this was a serial patient [00:30:35] that they were aware of this patient and who they were and what they were doing and all this kind of stuff.

Kevin Shannon: So [00:30:40] then when I found that out as well, then that’s when I was a bit like, I don’t I’m not having that. Like, this [00:30:45] is if they’re going to be doing this at like, I would much rather they did it to me because I can [00:30:50] handle it. Rather than they go round and they get they get the vet and some other practice and they just cause them [00:30:55] untold hell. And then somebody in their home, you know, specially it can’t get to sleep at night and all these things. I was like, no, I’m not [00:31:00] having it. I’m going to I’m going to stick up for myself with this. And. So [00:31:05] I fought against them, which was, you know, I should have just at the end of the day, just gone take [00:31:10] your money back because that’s eventually what happened at the end of the day. And that’s what made them go down. Yeah, [00:31:15] sure. But, you know, sometimes it’s hard to do that.

Prav Solanki: Yeah yeah yeah yeah [00:31:20] yeah. So what happened next in your career, Kevin. In this in this better job. [00:31:25] Obviously you had a problem. Patient management was okay. How did you get from there? To [00:31:30] retiring from dentistry and now being a [00:31:35] dental software entrepreneur. What was the journey?

Kevin Shannon: So, [00:31:40] well, off the back of those patients, I was like. If [00:31:45] I had. You don’t because my notes are not good. My [00:31:50] notes are not good. My consent forms, things just, [00:31:55] you know, and actually, I had quite a lot of stuff for those patients. But at the end of the day, it still wasn’t good [00:32:00] enough. So I was like, see if I could have just had like a for like a form that [00:32:05] said, look, and it’s not for the GDC, really. It was more just so I could say to them, look, I [00:32:10] told you all of this, it is here, it’s written down, you know, and if it was just easier for me to do [00:32:15] that. And so I thought, right, I’m going to make a thing that does that [00:32:20] and just see what happens. So I just gave it a go. It worked, and [00:32:25] I went on to found Dentist by Dentist Facebook group, and I just posted a [00:32:30] thing on there and said, I’ve made this thing I make, I make a WhatsApp group. Anybody can join it if they want to join it. [00:32:35]

Prav Solanki: And what was the thing? Tell me about this thing. What was it? Describe this thing that you met and you were still, at this point, [00:32:40] a practising clinical dentist. Right? Or not?

Kevin Shannon: Still dentistry?

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Still doing dentistry. [00:32:45] Describe the thing that you’d made and what problem is solved.

Kevin Shannon: So it’s like it’s [00:32:50] just simply what it is is it’s, uh, some buttons and each one says composite bridge, [00:32:55] crown, whatever. All your different treatments. Yeah. And then you just put the patient’s name in on the website. [00:33:00]

Prav Solanki: Interface type thing.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. On the website interface. So then you just log on under [00:33:05] that, click the button did, did, did whatever treatments you want to do composite bridge extraction [00:33:10] hit generate and then give you a big form just like an under 10s. [00:33:15] So I posted that on people are like oh and it generated a bit. It’s funny when I posted that I was like, so like, oh my [00:33:20] god, are they going to delete my post? Am I going to? I was so anxious about the film thing. I think if people are going to think I’m an idiot, I’m [00:33:25] going to anyway. And then I ended up like over 200 dentists in the Facebook group and in the WhatsApp [00:33:30] group. So I was like, okay, like there’s something there’s something in this here that.

Prav Solanki: I’m still trying to wrap my [00:33:35] head around. What? You created a web interface where you press Composite bridge or whatever. You press a button and it [00:33:40] generates a form. What does that generates a form with what? Like what [00:33:45] information or what consent form. Right. Yes. Okay. Got you. Sorry I [00:33:50] missed the point there. So basically what you’ve done is you’ve created a piece of software [00:33:55] that no matter what treatment is press a couple of buttons. Boom. There’s your consent [00:34:00] form. Hand it over to the patient. It’s got you back. Yeah. And you spent the [00:34:05] time going through all the information that you had about consent forms and thought, I’m [00:34:10] going to make life easier for them. Now when it comes to consent, I’ve got a button you can press no matter what treatment [00:34:15] is. Boom. There’s concern for any kind of commercial thing [00:34:20] behind this. Or was this just like a, hey, I’m going to give this out to the world and [00:34:25] see what feedback I get, and I want to get some validation from my community. [00:34:30] I’ve, I’ve, I created something that’s only useful for me. Or is it useful for the rest of the community? [00:34:35]

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. I mean, there was a bit of that. There was a bit of as well thinking like, you know, after [00:34:40] having that with those patients, I was thinking, is this, is this what I want to be doing? You know, [00:34:45] like, because I’m, I waking up in the morning, am I happy? And I’m starting to [00:34:50] get to that realisation of that maybe this just isn’t the thing for me. So [00:34:55] yeah. So I guess I just I put it out there. I mean, there was, there’s obviously the thought of [00:35:00] the commercial output of it, but at that point in time, um, [00:35:05] it was like I was just giving people a tenner just to cover some running [00:35:10] costs. And like a few people signing up, a few people signed up, like almost straight away, [00:35:15] and they’re still paying a tenner. Ten a month, ten a month. They, uh, [00:35:20] and they’re still paying a tenner. I’ve just let for for the early support. I was like, you can keep it. [00:35:25] You can keep it as a tenner. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Early adopters. Yeah. Um, founding members.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. Indeed. [00:35:30] Indeed. Which I’m very grateful for. Um, but. Yeah, but then the feedback [00:35:35] was good and then it was just all the other ideas and things that people were having. And then I was thinking, well, there must [00:35:40] then there must be a way that we can just make everything else more efficient, because I did, you [00:35:45] know, I I’ve got that obsession with efficiency. Everything’s like, you know, you pick [00:35:50] that up and you use it until it’s done with, and then you put it down and then. Having [00:35:55] the bend in the right place so the nurse isn’t having to walk around the boat. Um, I [00:36:00] always like the the Ray Kroc story about setting up the McDonald’s and having all. Yeah, you [00:36:05] know, systemised.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Kevin Shannon: And there’s that. There’s the movie where they make it and [00:36:10] you see them designing it and the the basketball field, and they draw it all out and stuff like that, you know, [00:36:15] just having it all. So you’re just not wasting any movements, I get it. [00:36:20] Um, so I thought that from that after that point, um, I [00:36:25] thought, well, I’ll just have a look at maybe doing some notes next, because that’s the thing I was rubbish at, um. [00:36:30]

Prav Solanki: As well. Okay. So what happened? So what happened next? [00:36:35] You’ve created this piece of software, you maintain a tenner a month off a bunch of dentists. [00:36:40] You’re still working as a dentist. But in your mind, what’s going on? [00:36:45] Are you saying I actually want to quit? What did you say? I want to quit dentistry. [00:36:50] Until full time into this software development. Quick and easy [00:36:55] for them was the returning point was a rapacious what what [00:37:00] happened? And what was that day where you said, right, I’m done. I’m handing the drive up now for God.

Kevin Shannon: Hey, [00:37:05] well, I think I was. We went because you’re in Manchester, aren’t you? Yeah, [00:37:10] yeah. Had a big night out in Manchester. And then after that, you know, rough [00:37:15] hung over and things. I was like, man, this is just not the, the [00:37:20] way to be going through life. I don’t think so. I was like, I’m going to make a few changes. [00:37:25] So I started making just start making those changes. So I stopped. So [00:37:30] I left my work at that point and I thought, I’m going to give this my all here [00:37:35] with really no safety net whatsoever. Just dive in and. [00:37:40] Diving two feet first, because I knew if I was still kind of hovering about [00:37:45] dentistry. I just I just didn’t see how that was going to work. I was like, am I [00:37:50] enjoy this? Like when I’m doing this, I’m it’s filling me with like some sort of pleasure. [00:37:55] So, um, maybe I should just give it my all. So that’s what I did. Stop [00:38:00] working in.

Prav Solanki: Making that decision of stopping the work. Was [00:38:05] there a moment where you thought, okay, now the software bit is making me enough money for me [00:38:10] to afford to give up? Was there was there a a financial decision here, or did you just think, you know, [00:38:15] dentistry is not for me. And in order for me to give this everything, [00:38:20] I need to stop doing dentistry. Where was your head at that point? Because I [00:38:25] speak to a lot of I have a want to be business owners or business owners that have got like, let’s [00:38:30] say, a side hustle and this, that and the other. And the advice I usually give them is this you’ve [00:38:35] just opened a squat and you’re working three associate jobs. There’s a point where you’re going to have to give [00:38:40] those up and put 110% into that squat, otherwise it’s going to be as successful as [00:38:45] 15% of your time, energy and headspace you’re putting into it. So you either go all [00:38:50] in. Will you carry on plodding along, and your business will always be a fraction [00:38:55] of what it is. And then that’s always the advice I give when it comes to sort of taking [00:39:00] this high risk approach. And where is your head at that time? What [00:39:05] were you thinking in terms of, well, what money have I got coming in? Did you have some savings in the bank [00:39:10] and thought, do you know what, I can cover myself for a few months or a year or whatever, but I’m going to go all in on this [00:39:15] now. And actually, I’ve had enough of dentistry. Well, where was your head?

Kevin Shannon: I [00:39:20] definitely couldn’t afford it. Definitely couldn’t afford to do it at that point. Um, [00:39:25] interesting. My. Yeah, my partner has supported [00:39:30] the beginning of this business. Like, it would have been completely impossible to do it without [00:39:35] Sophie. Like allowing me just to live.

Prav Solanki: Kudos [00:39:40] to Sophie.

Kevin Shannon: Kudos to Sophie. Yes yes indeed. Yes indeed. Brilliant. [00:39:45] Yes. She’s she’s allowed me to to do it. She’s like being because [00:39:50] this isn’t like to me this does not feel like real work. You know, like getting up and just mucking [00:39:55] about on a computer all day is is so easy compared to dentistry, [00:40:00] you know, it’s that it’s like it’s such a difficult it’s a difficult job. It’s [00:40:05] you need to work so hard like this is just, you know, this is nothing [00:40:10] really compared to doing that. So I’m really grateful for her for, uh, allowing [00:40:15] me to do that. But yeah, no, I couldn’t I couldn’t afford it. But that’s why I’ve, I [00:40:20] it’s one of those things I’ve don’t really I’ve never really taken a pause to think and make a decision. I think with all [00:40:25] these things we’ve been speaking about the dentistry, the jobs. I’ve just [00:40:30] always, um. Made a snap decision and just just random. Um, [00:40:35] which is. I guess in the short term being [00:40:40] to my detriment. But over the longer term, I think all the things have worked out because it’s all led to this [00:40:45] point.

Prav Solanki: I always think that certainly [00:40:50] the people I work with are myself the hardest, [00:40:55] the biggest, the boldest decisions that I’ve made or even [00:41:00] those that I’ve observed other people have made have led to the biggest successes. [00:41:05] Like, how did that decision or the more difficult it is, or where you’re at that cliff edge and you [00:41:10] think, should I jump? Or should I just ease back and get myself a rope and lowered [00:41:15] myself down slowly? Do you see what I mean? Like those that have made the leap and the [00:41:20] risky jumps. Those are the decisions that have had the biggest impact. [00:41:25] And it just sounds like you’ve just sort of like, screw it. Just going all in now. Right. [00:41:30] Yeah. Um, this is it.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. But like you’re saying, there’s like, I know what that other [00:41:35] I know what that other road is. If you go that other road, you know what’s going to happen. It’s going to be a [00:41:40] bit easier and a bit more comfortable, you know? And that’s fine. Maybe. But yeah, um, [00:41:45] this is a bit more of an adventure because I have absolutely no idea what’s going to happen. [00:41:50] Um, I always had a I’ve always had a path. Set out for me [00:41:55] from school. You could do this. You get these grades, you go here. You do this year, you do that, you do [00:42:00] five years of this, then you do the VTI, then you get the job. Then I got the [00:42:05] job and I was like, oh my God. Like, well, you know, 35 years of this. And it just I [00:42:10] felt like I was just gonna say it. Yeah, like I could. And that’s why I didn’t want to get a practice, [00:42:15] because there was, there was all there could have been opportunities for that to buy any practices or anything. And I just thought [00:42:20] I. So then I was at that, I was at that crossroads of like, I, where am I going to go with this? Because I [00:42:25] do not want to own a practice. It just wasn’t it just wasn’t for me. After thinking it was something that I really wanted to do. [00:42:30] Um, yeah. Yeah. So yeah.

Prav Solanki: Okay. [00:42:35] So you’ve got this concern for generally are you [00:42:40] getting ideas from clinicians? So tell me about now [00:42:45] your journey as a computer maker about a software [00:42:50] guy, SAS producer call it whatever you want. Right. You know, I think I was mentioning [00:42:55] earlier that, you know, I think I signed up to a free trial period of this software. [00:43:00] And as a non clinician, I mucked about with it and I pretended to play [00:43:05] dentist. And the AI generated a transcript of what I’ve said, which [00:43:10] is a mancunian. It says it’s not an easy thing to do. There’s other software platforms that think I’m Welsh and, [00:43:15] um, it produced a pretty accurate transcript. But what I, what I was really [00:43:20] impressed with was the summary that it produced and the notes. And then I spoke to jazz [00:43:25] about it and I said, this is effing insane. They just did this, that. And it really goes, mate, you’ve [00:43:30] not scratched the surface. Have a look at jazz mode. He goes, what that will do. [00:43:35] And this is how I describe your software. And I like to look at things from a very, [00:43:40] very simple point of view is that I can now have a consultation with [00:43:45] a patient flicky software on and wear a microphone and forget about my notes. [00:43:50] And then what I do is that instead of thinking, I’ve got to do this consultation [00:43:55] and write the notes and do all the content razzmatazz, I just have a conversation with gauged [00:44:00] with that patient or jazz says what he’s done is he’s slightly [00:44:05] changed how he talks to patients so that the software captures things [00:44:10] in the right way. But it’s small tweaks. And then at the end of the consultation, [00:44:15] the notes are written, but he’ll still cast his eye over it and maybe tweak [00:44:20] a few things.

Prav Solanki: But he’s telling me now that the amount of tweaking he has to do is become less [00:44:25] and less, and you notice it don’t. You’re not worried? As my nurse got my back, [00:44:30] did she capture that thing I said or this thing? And the AI [00:44:35] summary is insane. And then it produces your treatment letter for you, and that’s pretty decent as [00:44:40] well. And so when I sort of like, how do you speak to this guy? This is brilliant. Absolutely [00:44:45] amazing. And if jazz endorses it then it must be okay. And [00:44:50] so we see you here at this point where you’ve created a piece of software that I think is [00:44:55] is amazing. And from my perspective, somebody who teaches sales [00:45:00] and communication and is involved in that part of the patient journey for a lot of practices [00:45:05] and a lot of the courses that are done, anything that gives you time back [00:45:10] with the patient so you can develop a better relationship with them, have more rapport, and [00:45:15] not be thinking in the background and distracted about this thing called nurse [00:45:20] has got a bit positive, right? So you’ve produced this software [00:45:25] is where it is. Tell me about like the day in the life of a SAS product [00:45:30] owner. Where’s your head at now? How many people are using your platform? What’s [00:45:35] the best thing about it and what’s the worst that what are the bugs? Tell me about [00:45:40] the things that have gone wrong, as well as as somebody who’s got a piece of software myself that [00:45:45] loads of stuff go wrong. So I just want to learn about the highs and lows of that. Right. [00:45:50] As somebody who’s created a piece of software that people have signed up to. Yeah.

Kevin Shannon: So [00:45:55] I guess the day in the life is, is I’ll get a wake up and [00:46:00] I go. Which, and this is interesting because as a dentist, [00:46:05] I never woke up and I thought, right, how can I go and help people today? It was all it was always, how [00:46:10] can I go and put as much money as I possibly can into my pocket?

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Kevin Shannon: You know, just [00:46:15] being honest was very much.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, yeah.

Kevin Shannon: Pretty much the thinking. But it’s now.

Prav Solanki: And [00:46:20] what’s and what’s getting in the way of the pocket is a few fill ins, some align the treatment blah [00:46:25] blah, blah, blah blah. And those are jobs and tasks that you’re going to do that’s going to generate [00:46:30] cash at the end of the month. And that is purely how you saw it, right?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. Just completely like [00:46:35] a transactional thing. But it’s not a good way to be doing that job. Cool. Okay. [00:46:40] What’s the shift?

Prav Solanki: What’s the shift now? As, as as a guy who’s producing [00:46:45] software. What is this. What is the shift for you? Helping people.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, [00:46:50] okay, I can go, right? I wake up and I go, right, how can I? What can I do that’s going to help people today? [00:46:55] And I can do it all day. I could start at 6:00 and I could finish at 10:00 at night. I could [00:47:00] finish at 11:00. I could be literally sitting there all day. Some days I get up and I go, oh my God, I’ve [00:47:05] hardly moved today. My legs are like, you know that? Like jelly and numb.

Prav Solanki: And another [00:47:10] feeling. Yeah.

Kevin Shannon: So but it’s just like it’s complete passion. Like I really just enjoy [00:47:15] it because you’re doing different things, chatting to people, sorting things out for people and improving [00:47:20] it, building other features. Like, I can see [00:47:25] where it’s all because you’re asking me, you know, what was my product roadmap and all that for this? Like, [00:47:30] it all just exists in my head and on the back of napkins that are all scribbled around about the place at the moment. It needs to just get a little [00:47:35] bit more tightened up. It’s called it’s called forward. I think that’s really the next [00:47:40] kind of stages building a team. So I really need to do. But yeah, so the [00:47:45] the good things are well it’s at the moment it’s in over 350 practices. [00:47:50] We’ve got 350 practices using it. So that’s.

Prav Solanki: Amazing.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. [00:47:55] And a really short period of time. And you got.

Prav Solanki: 300 and have you got 350 subscribers [00:48:00] using it.

Kevin Shannon: Um, yes.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Kevin Shannon: Pushed [00:48:05] over that.

Prav Solanki: And out of interest of those 350 [00:48:10] subscribers, how many of them are using it every day in their [00:48:15] day to day consultation process?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, but probably [00:48:20] looking a bit like it’s probably about 80% at the moment. What’s [00:48:25] happening is it’s becoming like an integral thing. [00:48:30] Yeah. You know, if sometimes I’ll get these messages like, oh, this is it’s not working, you know, and [00:48:35] it’s like your microphone is running out of battery, you know. But it’s the, the, the panic [00:48:40] that I can sense is like, oh, this is yeah. You know, it kind of makes me smile a little bit [00:48:45] like I’ve built something that’s become so useful that without it it’s like, oh, what am I going to do? [00:48:50] I’m actually going to have to write this, write these notes. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: And so [00:48:55] it’s almost becoming the way of working for clinicians for, for at least the I [00:49:00] would say, well, maybe 300 out of the 350 or so clinicians who are using it. It’s become [00:49:05] that way of working. Right?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. Um, yeah. So we’re over [00:49:10] like 20,000 notes created.

Prav Solanki: Wow.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. [00:49:15] It’s just it’s crazy.

Prav Solanki: So how many how much communication do [00:49:20] you have with your users? Do you have a sort of. Do you get a ton of emails every day and you say, great, I’ve got to sift [00:49:25] through this. There’s these 20 are asking this question, which I’ve answered [00:49:30] a hundred times. So I’m going to create a little video and send this out. What’s your how do you deal [00:49:35] with the product feedback? For us, when we’re developing products, we take [00:49:40] everything in from our customers. Then that goes to the team. And [00:49:45] then we look at it and say, right, what is the biggest impact we can have with our software? [00:49:50] That’s going to be the easiest thing to implement that will impact the most people. And then we have [00:49:55] like a matrix of what our roadmap looks like and how are we going to do it. How do you deal with [00:50:00] like with that many users, all the people requesting things, [00:50:05] telling you, hey, this isn’t working. If only you could do this. It’s just done this. It’s just done that. What? What’s your [00:50:10] day look like? Are you dealing with that throughout the day? Are you dealing with actually [00:50:15] producing, writing code or producing the software? What what what [00:50:20] are you doing?

Kevin Shannon: I don’t really have too much problems with people using it [00:50:25] because I’ve done the job. It’s built to be easy to use, [00:50:30] easy to update, easy for dentists. And the little example I give is like [00:50:35] your GI, you know, any product that you buy or material that you use [00:50:40] has this simple instructions. You put this on and you do this and you do it like a monkey could do it. [00:50:45] That’s how I’ve built it. Like it should be easy to understand. There is a [00:50:50] kind of small learning curve with it, so it’s a lot of the time it’s trying to explain the concept [00:50:55] of how it works, because there’s a specific concept behind it that [00:51:00] once that’s understood, then the rest of it’s just it’s all pretty straightforward. So I [00:51:05] have some times just a little bit of explaining of the concept, um, or [00:51:10] adjusting some things for people. At the moment I’m just trying to do [00:51:15] some, um, uh, marketing things, just kind of get it out there a bit more making [00:51:20] making some ads, making videos, these kind of things. These are all these kind of things that I learned [00:51:25] when I was working with Mark, like how important that is. Yeah. To be doing, getting getting [00:51:30] the videos, getting the stuff and all that. Um, the thing I love the most is the coding. [00:51:35] I love doing it. I love creating the okay, how can we get this to work? And just the problem [00:51:40] solving of that, however, it’s I don’t know if it’s where I’m going to be best placed. [00:51:45] Going forward, you know, as we’re building a team up and whatnot. [00:51:50] So it’s a really.

Prav Solanki: Interesting thing you said earlier on in this podcast. And he said when [00:51:55] I was thinking about dentistry. I was also thinking about doing [00:52:00] maths. Yeah, right. And and what [00:52:05] you do and certainly what my software engineers, the way their brain thinks [00:52:10] and they’re some of the best software engineers are very good mathematicians. [00:52:15] Yeah. And they use mathematical basis to their problem [00:52:20] solving, if that makes sense. And as soon as you said that, I thought to myself [00:52:25] that maybe the reason why you’ve landed here is your brain is [00:52:30] a logical mathematical software development type setup [00:52:35] where that’s where you get your kicks. Yeah. That’s what [00:52:40] drives you. That’s what gives you your sense of accomplishment. And even now you’ve just [00:52:45] said, I like getting stuck into the weeds of the code. Yeah. Which [00:52:50] I am guessing, Kevin, because you are not a software developer by [00:52:55] education or trade or whatever, you kind of having to learn it as you go along as [00:53:00] well, right? So you write in the code, you’re learning about it, you’re figuring out how to make it more efficient [00:53:05] or whatever, but you’re not a software developer as such. And [00:53:10] so I think it’s incredibly amazing that you’ve built a piece of software that’s 350 [00:53:15] people are paying money for, and it’s making a difference and it’s impacting [00:53:20] their every day. And have you written every line of code? Yeah, yeah, [00:53:25] yeah. It’s pretty amazing isn’t it?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. It’s been a lot of YouTubing [00:53:30] and all that good stuff and googling things, but it’s [00:53:35] just like it’s all there for you. Like it’s, you know, if it’s if it’s the kind of thing that you [00:53:40] that you like to know, it’s there. And that’s [00:53:45] the thing, you know, dentistry’s very closed with it’s, um, education. Everything’s [00:53:50] you go to university and after that, if you want to learn anything more, it’s, you got to go do all these courses, all [00:53:55] this kind of stuff. Tech is just all out there on online for free to learn.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, [00:54:00] yeah, but you can say that. But but how many people have implemented [00:54:05] and executed this. Right. So it’s all about execution as well right. Yeah for sure. [00:54:10] And so what what are the next steps for digital TCL as you see it [00:54:15] Kevin. Like I’m assuming now that um, you don’t need to rely too much on [00:54:20] and um, you can you can treat it to dinner every now and then and, um, you [00:54:25] know, take her out and whatnot, and she’s not having to support you as much. And things are [00:54:30] looking better financially for you.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, yeah, we’ve got a bit more freedom. [00:54:35] Um, again, although, like, I was, we went out for dinner last night, [00:54:40] and, uh, that was a little treat. Okay, let’s go get some dinner or we’ll go to the place that you like for food. And then. So [00:54:45] we ended up having anaphylaxis, so I don’t really know how to treat that was maybe I should just stay [00:54:50] on the computer, you know. Um. Yeah. Yeah. But the. Yeah, [00:54:55] I think my, my vision has always been that if you’re doing something on a computer. So it [00:55:00] started off with a consent forms, but it’s also just the repetitive nature of everything on the computer and having [00:55:05] to or when I click on the patient record I have [00:55:10] to click here, click there, click there to find out the piece of information that I want to find. I [00:55:15] just want I see this vision where I just everything is really efficient. It just all [00:55:20] works the way you want it to work. Um, like an iPhone of [00:55:25] management management software in the in the dental surgery [00:55:30] essentially like the real vision is you chart, you do your composite, you charge it [00:55:35] through and everything else happens. That’s it. All you need to do is just click that charge charge button. [00:55:40] That’s it. That’s what I want to make.

Prav Solanki: An absolutely [00:55:45] seamless user experience. Right. The the simplest and the simplest requires [00:55:50] no training, requires no instruction manual. You [00:55:55] just go there, press that button. Everything else just happens in the background.

Kevin Shannon: Ideally, [00:56:00] you know, it sounds a bit like a pipe dream, isn’t it? No, it’s a bit, uh, a bit mad, but I [00:56:05] think I can see it. And I think this is it’s my naivety and [00:56:10] my lack of because I’ve spoken to people that this is what I want to do. And they go, oh, we’ve thought about [00:56:15] doing this and, you know, but because I’ve not really thought about doing it and I don’t have that knowledge [00:56:20] about it, then I’m like, okay, well, I’ll just I’ll just give it a go and deal with the challenges as and when they, they arise. [00:56:25] Um, rather than sitting there worrying, I won’t be able to do this, am I going to get that done? Because [00:56:30] I’ll just. I’ll not get anywhere if that’s, um. The mode of modus operandi.

Prav Solanki: So [00:56:35] what? So where? Where is your digital teeth? You got 300 [00:56:40] users. Now, if you to wave a magic wand or if you say, look. Well, this is [00:56:45] what my dream is. Where is it? How far can this product go, [00:56:50] do you think in terms of I know you said you’ve got a few clients in the States and they’re [00:56:55] not as worried about their nose, so it’s not as big a deal or whatever. So do [00:57:00] you see this? Do you see yourself sort of sort of dominating the UK [00:57:05] market mainly. Is that is that the addressable market for you or are you sort of thinking [00:57:10] actually the boundaries are not anywhere, and you want to take this product [00:57:15] essentially global? What does that what does that look like if we if we [00:57:20] if let’s say we were sat here in, um, 1st of June 2025 [00:57:25] and we were sat having a meal or a drink at a bar [00:57:30] or something, and you looked back to this day, what must [00:57:35] have happened for you to say this has been a success? I have really smashed [00:57:40] this year. What’s what’s in your vision for the next 12 months?

Kevin Shannon: Um, [00:57:45] I want to I want to get, like, the next thing I’ve got coming is [00:57:50] a treatment planner process. So have that coming in with users using that [00:57:55] and then. Have probably. Also [00:58:00] more just more people on this, because the more people that are using this, the better is going to get. [00:58:05] The more people that are using digital TCO is just going to get exponentially better. But the main thing [00:58:10] is, is I think to have like version one of the patient management system. Yeah, [00:58:15] built and maybe a couple of people on using that. That [00:58:20] would be the ideal thing for the for the next year. But [00:58:25] over maybe the next 5 to 10, I would like it to be just a thing that [00:58:30] everybody uses. It’s just that this is just the thing that’s in the in [00:58:35] the.

Prav Solanki: Lack of trust we need safe.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. And like a scanner should be for [00:58:40] everybody as well. That should be a thing that everybody.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, just has.

Kevin Shannon: Scanners, intraoral camera. [00:58:45]

Prav Solanki: But it sounds like it is the thing for those 300 dentists, [00:58:50] right? That, like you say, that if they think it’s broken or something, it’s like the world’s [00:58:55] falling apart, right? You can sense the anxiety that. Hold on a minute. My digital tko’s not [00:59:00] here today. Um, see what I mean? So I think I think it is the same for, [00:59:05] for a lot of people right now. Um, yeah. I guess it’s just taking that to the masses, [00:59:10] right?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, I think I think really that would be the answer is to have my [00:59:15] 1000 true fans. Because that’s really what I’m trying. That’s really what I’m trying to build. I’m really [00:59:20] trying to make something for for the people. So it’s so cheesy, right? But like, [00:59:25] if I could have that in a year’s time, that would be pretty good. Amazing.

Prav Solanki: Okay. [00:59:30] And, um, so how do people get access to this? I know you’ve got, um, [00:59:35] obviously your website and stuff, and, uh, do you offer, like a free trial or something like that? [00:59:40] So Dennis can can play around with it and whatnot? How if, if I’m [00:59:45] a dentist listening to this podcast, I think, oh, this digital SEO sounds all right. How do [00:59:50] I get involved and where do I sign up?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, just Google it. Go [00:59:55] with the website digital Tsuyako UK. Uh, you can try it for 28 days [01:00:00] for free. There’s different methods, so you can just dive straight into doing the full appointment [01:00:05] recordings, but you don’t even have to do that. Like there’s other there’s other things that it’s all [01:00:10] fully explained out. I take I take people through the process of how I would recommend that they actually [01:00:15] go about using it. Um, but to really to start off, you just need any sort of microphone [01:00:20] that you can plug in and you’re good to go. You have a button, you speak your notes [01:00:25] and then that’s it. It’s done. So just try it. Try 28 days. Yeah, hopefully it just [01:00:30] makes life a little bit easier. What are the.

Prav Solanki: What are the downsides of this piece of software? [01:00:35] I spoke to a few dentists about and they said, yeah, but what if the AI gets things wrong [01:00:40] and then drops me in the shit and and stuff like that? So have you had any sort [01:00:45] of negatives about that?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, but people do worry about that. Like the [01:00:50] AI is going to make stuff up. But yeah, it’s not designed. It’s not designed [01:00:55] that way. Because what it does is it takes your voice input and converts [01:01:00] that into notes. So it’s not making anything up. It’s just taking what you tell it and writing [01:01:05] it out nicely. And a very, very simplified format. Um, [01:01:10] but at the end of the day, it’s like it’s just a note taking system. Like anything else, it’s still [01:01:15] the dentist responsibility to check it and make sure that. That [01:01:20] is correct because it’s there. It’s your patience, your record. At the end of the day, what [01:01:25] it does is, is it just makes it 95% easier to do that.

Prav Solanki: Um. [01:01:30]

Kevin Shannon: The other the other problem is, um, there’s a couple of funny things. [01:01:35] Well, well, the other problem is people not understanding the overall concept of it because it works differently [01:01:40] from other systems, which is other things like addition and subtraction [01:01:45] to the notes. This is not addition or subtraction. That’s not how it works. Um, it addition subtraction [01:01:50] to templates. Sorry. Um, doesn’t work like that. And the the funniest [01:01:55] thing that people have a thing is about the output style. They don’t like the style, they [01:02:00] would rather they could have bold headings. And it said the tooth in this [01:02:05] format or that format. Never mind that it does it for you automatically. It’s not. Yeah. No it’s not I [01:02:10] like I like to have a line break at that point, you know whatever. So yeah. Are you working [01:02:15] on that? Um, yeah. Working on it. However, it’s very small. [01:02:20] You know, there’s a balance that has to be struck between not [01:02:25] having to do any work and the style [01:02:30] of the output.

Prav Solanki: I get it, you know, the, the we’ve got, we’ve [01:02:35] got the piece of software. Right. And we got a lot of, um, a lot of people saying, well, if we could do this or we [01:02:40] could do that, and we think, just think about what it’s already doing for you. Right? It’s a bit like patience, [01:02:45] I think. I take it like this. It’s a bit like patients who come in and their teeth [01:02:50] are mashed. Right. Absolute car crash. Right. And you come in and you give them [01:02:55] perfectly straight teeth and they look beautiful and all the rest of it, and they come back and go, but this little [01:03:00] tooth is a millimetre off. And this little thing gave me like look at you before [01:03:05] picture, you buffoon. Yeah. This is where you started me and but [01:03:10] you know, I think I think the thing is with software that you will always have people [01:03:15] giving you feedback. And I think feedback is, is a great [01:03:20] thing for product development. It’s just. How [01:03:25] you integrate that into the future. Right. And so maybe making this [01:03:30] thing bold is not as important. And headaches and migraines line breaks [01:03:35] as as writing your treatment plan for you for example. Right. Like [01:03:40] that’s definitely a bigger, more important problem to solve. And you’ve just got to manage those challenges. [01:03:45] Has there ever been a point during the development of this [01:03:50] where things went absolutely tits up and you had a really low moment.

Kevin Shannon: And [01:03:55] it’s not that’s not happening quite yet. There was a day, though, where [01:04:00] um, it was quite early on. And I [01:04:05] just thought, I think I just actually it’s got shared around a bit. And then a [01:04:10] WhatsApp group run about it’s not my, not my thing that I had, but another group. Yeah, it was [01:04:15] like a big burst of signups. It happened. And then that day it just all completely crashed [01:04:20] and I wasn’t anywhere near the flat I was that was out. So I had to sprint halfway across Glasgow, [01:04:25] um, to get back in here. And I had to very, very quickly recode [01:04:30] just, just everything that was like the that [01:04:35] was the how long did that take?

Prav Solanki: How long did that take?

Kevin Shannon: Well, I say record everything. I just did the certain [01:04:40] bit. I just fixed the, the crash bits. I think it went down about 11:00 [01:04:45] and I had it back up by one. So a couple of hours. But this is this is the thing. It’s just me that’s doing this. [01:04:50] So I’m. Going forward as well, that in a year’s time, having a having [01:04:55] a team a bit of. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Do you have any concerns [01:05:00] about that next step like going from UI, the [01:05:05] developer, the marketeer, the customer support, the [01:05:10] guy that deals with things when shit goes wrong, the product roadmap guy [01:05:15] you are the business right? Do you have any sort of concerns [01:05:20] anxieties like you must have thought about what the future is. What’s holding you back? What? What [01:05:25] are your, um, what’s stopping you jumping off that cliff and making that leap and setting out on the [01:05:30] go for it now. No.

Kevin Shannon: What about the team and all this kind of stuff and giving it up? [01:05:35]

Prav Solanki: Well, you did it. You did it with.

Kevin Shannon: Dentistry.

Prav Solanki: Right? You hung your drill up and said, I’m out of it. Yeah. [01:05:40] Dropped your mike and said, this is me done now, right? I’m going fully Sophie’s [01:05:45] support me. Happy days. Right. What’s the next big [01:05:50] leap with this? And is it getting the team? Is anything holding you back? [01:05:55]

Kevin Shannon: Uh, there’s nothing really holding me back, I guess. [01:06:00] For example.

Prav Solanki: For example. Trust.

Kevin Shannon: Um, [01:06:05] I’m not so sure about this trust thing. I think I would trust people. I mean, it is [01:06:10] I am a bit of a control freak over it and that trying not to micromanage every single [01:06:15] detail of it. Yeah. But I think because I’ve been, you know, [01:06:20] speaking to people, they’ve said, you know, oh. You could hire, you know, software [01:06:25] engineer and things like that. And I think that I’m not sure if that’s the road that would go down for building [01:06:30] the team. It would be more the marketing and the interesting sales. And, [01:06:35] you know, all those kind of things would be more, more beneficial. Yeah. [01:06:40] Well, hope is holding me back really. Just even more. I [01:06:45] either need to go out and get investment or I need more numbers so that I can pay people. [01:06:50]

Prav Solanki: Uh, yeah. Essentially.

Kevin Shannon: So at the moment, it’s got to a point where [01:06:55] it’s allowing me to live my life. And from the business and do all this kind of [01:07:00] thing. But it’s not a stage where I could be going out and hiring a team of people. [01:07:05] So it’s either that I just keep on bootstrapping it or it’s investment.

Prav Solanki: Okay, so [01:07:10] how many subscribers do you think you would need? Before [01:07:15] you’re able to. So it’s either a [01:07:20] investment thing or it’s a I’ve got enough subscribers so that [01:07:25] it’s making enough money to be able to fund the team. Where does [01:07:30] that what does that need to be for you to say? Right, I can get a team on board now, whether [01:07:35] it’s marketing, whether it’s the software development side of things. I would [01:07:40] be in a marketeer myself and a software [01:07:45] guy. I’d probably argue that you need the software people, [01:07:50] right? But that’s that’s just my opinion, right? You’ve without [01:07:55] that, you’ve single handedly created a phenomenal platform [01:08:00] that supports 300 plus dentists. I mean, that’s that’s [01:08:05] phenomenal. For somebody who was bootstrapped that as an individual and done [01:08:10] that herself. So, um, don’t necessarily listen to what I’m telling you to do. Um, it’s [01:08:15] just what I would do. But where does that need to be for you to be able to say, right, this business [01:08:20] can wash its own face and I can get him on board. Is it is it that [01:08:25] thousand raving fans? Is it does it need to be more than that?

Kevin Shannon: I think things started [01:08:30] getting a team sooner than that. To be honest, it’s probably getting quite close. Maybe another 100 to [01:08:35] 100, and your work will really be able to get people on board. But that’s something [01:08:40] that I really don’t know anything about, you know? So it’s really. But as with everything, [01:08:45] it’s just. You’ve just got the go. Go for it and learn as you go and make your mistakes. It’s [01:08:50] really the only way to learn is to do something and be [01:08:55] willing to mess it up.

Prav Solanki: You will make a ton of mistakes, but it’s just it [01:09:00] is the way it is. Do you know what I mean? That’s business. That’s whether it’s practice ownership or software [01:09:05] or whatever. Yeah. Britney and Kevin, this brings me towards the end [01:09:10] of the podcast and we have some we have some questions that we ask all of our guests. [01:09:15] Um, and one of them is that, um, imagine it was your last [01:09:20] day on the planet. Kevin. Yeah. Um, and you were surrounded by your [01:09:25] loved ones, and, um, you had to leave them with three pieces [01:09:30] of wisdom. What would they be?

Kevin Shannon: Three pieces of wisdom.

Prav Solanki: Three [01:09:35] pieces of wisdom that you didn’t put out into the world. What would they be based on your own life [01:09:40] experiences?

Kevin Shannon: And. You have to have the courage [01:09:45] just to do things, especially the things that really scary. You’ve just got [01:09:50] to do them because that’s where most the most growth comes from. That’s where most of my youth has come from, when [01:09:55] I’ve been really scared and I’ve just gone and done it.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Um.

Kevin Shannon: That. [01:10:00] Uh, it’s really important [01:10:05] is to be trying to just be as honest as you can in life. And but, I [01:10:10] mean, it’s like having that vulnerability with people is just really [01:10:15] important. So, so that you can connect with people because if you can’t connect with people, that’s [01:10:20] why you have problems. I think that’s the biggest thing I’ve learned about what we’ve been talking about there with these other jobs that [01:10:25] just are never, ever really connected with anybody. And. [01:10:30] And just. Just enjoy it, isn’t it really? Just try [01:10:35] and enjoy. Just try and enjoy it. Because. If you’re [01:10:40] not enjoying it. It’s not really, it’s not really much point. And if you’re not enjoying [01:10:45] it, just. Do something else. Really change it. Make a change [01:10:50] because you’ll be all right. I think that’s a thing. You’ll be okay. That’ll be my final one. [01:10:55] Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Good. Good. Can you go back to those moments of where [01:11:00] nothing really mattered? You didn’t have a pot to piss in, but you were having loads of fun climbing trees. [01:11:05] Yeah.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, that’s that’s that’s that’s the aim of this. Yeah, [01:11:10] but build a big treehouse.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Brilliant, brilliant. Kevin. Actually, [01:11:15] I’ve got one more question. Payman would shoot me for this. Ask this question. Um, which is [01:11:20] fantasy dinner party. Three people, dead or alive. Who [01:11:25] would they be? Three guests.

Kevin Shannon: Julius Caesar. Napoleon [01:11:30] Bonaparte.

Prav Solanki: And Fatima and. [01:11:35]

Speaker4: Mm. Right?

Kevin Shannon: Probably Steve Jobs. [01:11:40] Good, good, good.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant. [01:11:45] Kevin, thanks so much for your time today. Um. It’s been it’s been really cool [01:11:50] speaking to you. And, um, you know, just learning about your journey. [01:11:55] Um, not many people have the courage to just hang up that drill and move on and pursue [01:12:00] their dream of passion. And, uh, I really do hope digital TCO does [01:12:05] very quickly like to sit down with you this time next year and talk about your thousand raving fans [01:12:10] and where, where it’s got to. But but I think it’s really cool that you’ve followed [01:12:15] your passion, taken those leaps and, um, and shared that story with us today.

Kevin Shannon: Well, [01:12:20] thank you so much. I really, really appreciate it. I’ve really enjoyed the conversation we’ve had this morning. It’s been [01:12:25] a good it’s been a good morning. So thank you so much.

[VOICE]: This is Dental [01:12:30] Leaders the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [01:12:35] leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. [01:12:40] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for [01:12:45] listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge [01:12:50] thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and [01:12:55] what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value [01:13:00] out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend [01:13:05] who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t [01:13:10] forget our six star rating.

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