Kevin Shannon: So it’s like it’s simply what it is is it’s, uh, some buttons and each one says, like, composite [00:00:05] bridge, crown, whatever, all your different treatments. Yeah. And then you just put the patient’s name [00:00:10] in on the website interface type thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. On the website interface. [00:00:15] So then you just log on under that, click the button. Whatever treatments you want to do composite [00:00:20] bridge extraction hit generate and then gives you a big form just [00:00:25] like an under 10s. So I posted that on people are like oh and it generated a bit. It’s funny when I posted [00:00:30] that I was like so like, oh my god, are they going to delete my post? Am I going to? I was so anxious about the film thing, thinking, [00:00:35] people are going to think I’m an idiot anyway. And then I ended up with like over 200 dentists in [00:00:40] the Facebook group and in the WhatsApp group. So I was like, okay, like there’s something, there’s something in this here.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:50] is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go [00:00:55] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:01:00] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:01:05]

Kevin Shannon: Ladies and gentlemen, it gives me great pleasure [00:01:10] to.

Prav Solanki: Introduce Kevin Shannon on the Dental Leaders podcast. [00:01:15] And Kevin came across my radar, I think [00:01:20] by accident really. And it’s through jazz variety. So he I [00:01:25] was on Instagram and then he put this post up saying digital TCO, I’ll [00:01:30] never have to write notes again. And I thought, you know what? If someone else has said [00:01:35] that this is just sort of a load of bollocks, but with jazz, when he puts something out [00:01:40] there and he talks about a product, I know it’s going to be high quality. So what I did is [00:01:45] I signed up for a free trial for digital TCO because it was curious and nosy, [00:01:50] nosy, and because I’m in the software development game, I thought, let me see what this is all [00:01:55] about. And I pretended to be a patient and I dentist. Sorry. And I, [00:02:00] um, press record on this thing and it got the transcription band gone, which for a [00:02:05] mancunian is really, really tricky and strange. And in addition to that, it [00:02:10] sparked a load of notes and I was really impressed by it. And [00:02:15] so I picked up the phone and spoke to jazz and he said, listen, mate, this is game changer for me. [00:02:20] And I’m at the moment preparing for a talk I’m going to [00:02:25] give at Clearcorrect Elevating Excellence event. And I’m talking about [00:02:30] the ultimate Clearcorrect consultation or clear aligner or orthodontic [00:02:35] consultation. Call it whatever you want. Um, and I thought, actually, you know what? I [00:02:40] want to learn how something like digital TCO would stop you ever writing [00:02:45] notes again. And we’re going to talk about what digital TCO is. But and Kevin, before [00:02:50] we get stuck into this, welcome to the podcast. And we just like to just [00:02:55] get a little bit of information about sort of where you grew up, um, [00:03:00] what your upbringing was like. So welcome to the podcast. You just like to start by just [00:03:05] telling us about your upbringing, where you were born, brothers and sisters, sort of family you [00:03:10] were born into. Yeah.

Kevin Shannon: Thanks, Prav. Uh, thanks for having me on. Um, yeah. [00:03:15] So I grew up in a little town outside Glasgow. It’s called Kilsyth. It’s [00:03:20] literally right on the on the hills. So from from the back of where I grew up, it’s [00:03:25] just like up into the hills. Into the Campsie hills. Like a beautiful place to grow up. So we grew [00:03:30] up a lot, you know, climbing trees, running about, playing about outside, all that kind of stuff. Had [00:03:35] a really good upbringing. We didn’t I didn’t really come from any money at anything at all, single parent family. [00:03:40] So my mum brought up me and my brother. But we have a really close family, [00:03:45] not massive family. My mum’s got three sisters a bit, you know, so my cousins and you [00:03:50] know, it was a really good, um, a really good upbringing. Didn’t have a lot of money but didn’t know it, [00:03:55] if you know what I mean.

Prav Solanki: Totally get it, Kevin. And then when you say you had a close family, were they close [00:04:00] in proximity as well? Were you mucking about with your cousins and your aunties and your and your uncles [00:04:05] and stuff like that, or really quite far. You know, you said you were just climbing trees and stuff. [00:04:10] Was that with sort of with sort of fat, close family who live nearby. [00:04:15]

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. Well, some live nearby. And then my grandparents, they left a little bit further away, some [00:04:20] other cousins that lived further away. But my grandmother always take is like, you know, like, you know, six, [00:04:25] seven of us away up in like caravan holidays for like weeks during the summer as well. So [00:04:30] yeah like just had had a really good, had a really good childhood. I would wouldn’t [00:04:35] change a thing. Happy childhood. Happy childhood indeed.

Prav Solanki: You mentioned something there like you didn’t [00:04:40] have you didn’t come from money. You didn’t have money, but you didn’t realise it or know it [00:04:45] either. And what makes you think back now, reflecting from today, looking [00:04:50] backwards and say, well, we didn’t have money. And how would [00:04:55] you describe that if you were to just sort of say, well, why? Why do you even say that?

Kevin Shannon: I [00:05:00] think it’s important because it gives me quite a lot of drive to do all this [00:05:05] stuff. It’s always kind of given me a drive. I think I’ve got a natural natural [00:05:10] intelligence that, you know, a gift that I’ve been given. And yeah, [00:05:15] I think that’s really just the main thing. It’s just I’ve got this drive that comes from that, [00:05:20] a stubbornness. It may be sometimes a bit too much of an ego that occurs [00:05:25] because of that, because I’m like, I’ve, you know, I’m I’m going to do this because of this, this. And the next [00:05:30] thing if you don’t want me.

Prav Solanki: Is there a part of you, Kevin, that says, I had nothing and I’ve got a band. And [00:05:35] to prove this, that I can do this on my own. I can come from nothing and [00:05:40] have a success story, or I want to just do better for myself because I’ve [00:05:45] had that. I don’t want to say struggle, but because it doesn’t sound like you did struggle [00:05:50] as a child because you said you had a very happy childhood and you didn’t know it. [00:05:55] And I think, I think that in itself is pretty amazing that, um, [00:06:00] you know, happiness doesn’t revolve around things. And, you know, you [00:06:05] can have so much fun climbing trees and looking around like we did on that as kids. [00:06:10] We were just bombing around on BMX and skateboards and stuff like that and getting [00:06:15] it getting into trouble. Yeah, we didn’t have money, right? We, you know, we didn’t [00:06:20] even get the caravan holidays. Right. And I remember we did like holidays didn’t exist and going [00:06:25] abroad was just it was something so foreign that it didn’t happen. Right. But [00:06:30] me and my brother and our mates, we used to muck around with really happy childhood and we [00:06:35] didn’t have money, but we also weren’t surrounded by friends who had it either, so we didn’t know [00:06:40] what we were missing, if that makes sense.

Prav Solanki: But looking back now and I think about what my children [00:06:45] have got sometimes I think the spoilt sometimes I think wouldn’t be good [00:06:50] for them to have a similar upbringing to us. But at the same respect I look at and think, well, I want to give them what I [00:06:55] didn’t have is that it’s always a constant sort of internal battle I have with myself [00:07:00] for, you know, with yourself. Was was there ever any time as a kid [00:07:05] where you thought, hmm, be nice if I had this or had that? Or was we just totally oblivious [00:07:10] to it? And secondly, like you, you say you’ve got this drive now, right? Does [00:07:15] that does that have its roots in the fact that, well, I’ve come from nothing and I’m going [00:07:20] to prove it to either myself or the world or whatever. You mentioned your ego, but I’m going to [00:07:25] I’m going to do this.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. Um, yeah. I think you touched you touched on something, [00:07:30] I think when you said, like, you know, oh, I’m going to do this, do this myself. And I was like, yeah, I [00:07:35] think that’s that’s probably my own. This isn’t directly answering that question, but I think sometimes that’s to my own detriment. [00:07:40] Um, that I do that I need to be able to open up things up [00:07:45] more and connect. With with more things, more people to [00:07:50] help with it further myself because like, yeah, I think I’ve been quite narrow focus. I can do this and [00:07:55] do this alone because that’s the way I’ve always had to be essentially. Mhm.

Prav Solanki: I guess the thrust [00:08:00] of my question is, does the fact that you’ve come from not very much drive [00:08:05] you to be even more. Is that a driving force for you from, for me growing [00:08:10] up it was part of that. It was part I was brought up in a single parent family as well. But my [00:08:15] it was my dad, not my mum. And there was two driving factors for me. [00:08:20] One was we had nothing and I’m gonna I’m gonna build a future here, right? And I’m [00:08:25] going to be successful, whatever successful means. And that definition of success has changed for me over the years. [00:08:30] But also I wanted to make my dad proud. Yeah, I wanted [00:08:35] to do right by him. And I’ve always seeks my father’s [00:08:40] approval, and he has been a massive driving force in me [00:08:45] doing what I do even today. Yeah, as a 46 year old adult, [00:08:50] I still seek my father’s approval for things that I really [00:08:55] shouldn’t have to do. You see what I mean? Is there any sort of parallels there for you? [00:09:00]

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, I think it’s a lot about, you know, looking after my mum and my [00:09:05] mum’s just done everything for me and my brother. You know, it’s [00:09:10] unconditional love, you know, thankless thanklessly just doing so much stuff. [00:09:15] You know, it’s just you could never you could never repay that. So [00:09:20] I think that’s like a big, a big factor. But I’ve kind of had the drive [00:09:25] but then lost the drive and then refound the drive again. I think it’s really what’s happened in [00:09:30] my life, just as things became a bit routine. And so I feel like there is that aspect of it, [00:09:35] but there’s also the aspect now where I just because it’s my own [00:09:40] frustrations and things, it’s I want to be able to help other people. And as I’m and as I’m seeing how this [00:09:45] thing is helping other people, it’s just pushing me on even more. So. Yeah, it’s interesting [00:09:50] because I don’t know exactly what it’s about. It’s just right now pretty [00:09:55] much a complete obsession. Like it’s just constantly on my mind, if [00:10:00] you know what I mean.

Prav Solanki: So just going back to your childhood. So what what did mum do [00:10:05] as bringing up two young boys? What what is it that you in terms [00:10:10] of how does she make ends meet when when you were younger? Just, just I just want to paint [00:10:15] a picture of what that was like growing up in a single parent family in Scotland. [00:10:20] And what you went with, what you went with out, and what mum was doing at that time [00:10:25] to give you where you are today.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. Well, um, my [00:10:30] mom worked as a dental and a medical receptionist, so she was she [00:10:35] did a few different jobs, things before that, but then, then she started doing that. But we didn’t live in like, a, [00:10:40] like a nice area as well either. It was pretty, pretty rough. Like, the street was [00:10:45] pretty rough and but you know, we were kind of always sheltered from that [00:10:50] just, you know, she really brought us up well, taught us, you know, [00:10:55] just manners and how to be, you know, reasonable people.

Prav Solanki: Hey. [00:11:00]

Kevin Shannon: And then both me and my brother are, you [00:11:05] know, successful in what? In what we do. But we like [00:11:10] we like the thing that we do. And if I look around about, you know, in that street that other people who are there, [00:11:15] you know, I can maybe name one other person who’s maybe got out of that. And that’s I think that’s [00:11:20] the thing is, like, she she’s given us the route out of there. You’ve broke [00:11:25] out.

Prav Solanki: You’ve broken out of that circle cycle, whatever it is of your [00:11:30] local environment and do well, whereas other kids maybe [00:11:35] haven’t or have gone down the wrong path. Right. And as I’m talking to you, Kevin, I’m thinking [00:11:40] about my own childhood because me and my brother were brought up on in on [00:11:45] the back of quite a rough estate. And it was literally, you know, whether people [00:11:50] were getting into scraps, selling drugs, getting expelled from school, all [00:11:55] of the above. And although we hung around in that environment [00:12:00] and knew everyone, dad always used to push education. And he’s like, listen, [00:12:05] I don’t want you to be like these guys, right? I want you to build a future, and I don’t [00:12:10] want you to do what I do. So we had a corner shop, he drove taxis, [00:12:15] he worked in factories, but he he did everything he could. And it sounds [00:12:20] like he mum did the same to break us out of that sort of cycle. So just [00:12:25] talk me through. What is it? What does your brother do and at what point did you decide [00:12:30] I’m going to be a medical dental professional?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. My brother, he’s [00:12:35] a barber, which is interesting because back in the day, a barber and a dentist were the same thing. [00:12:40]

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Kevin Shannon: He’s gifted in other [00:12:45] ways. Like, I’m not really so good with people, like, because [00:12:50] I liked it, you know, have to think things through. And I could do all that kind [00:12:55] of stuff. And he is a very, very good with people. So he’s [00:13:00] manages and runs this, you know, these barber shops. So he’s very, [00:13:05] very good at that. That’s doing great.

Prav Solanki: What’s the age gap between you both covered.

Kevin Shannon: Three years. [00:13:10]

Prav Solanki: Right. All the younger.

Kevin Shannon: He’s the younger brother and the older brother. The younger brother [00:13:15] right.

Prav Solanki: That’s really interesting. So my dad is younger than me. I’m [00:13:20] okay with people, but my brother’s a lot better. A lot better. Yeah. Yeah, he’s [00:13:25] got the gift of the gab. He’s a social butterfly. It’s really interesting [00:13:30] that, um, I am a little bit more. I definitely more academic than my brother, [00:13:35] for sure. Yeah, but you put us both in a room with [00:13:40] a group of people. He will work that room, work that audience, and it will. [00:13:45] We’re like chalk and cheese in that respect. He’s so much better than me socially. Yeah. [00:13:50]

Kevin Shannon: And that’s, I think, coming back to them, coming back to my mum again about that because I went to school [00:13:55] and then I just, you know, straight straight, everything’s just all this. So then when he was going through [00:14:00] school, teachers would try and compare my brother to me. Yeah. And [00:14:05] my mum just would never stand for it. You know, you’re two different people. Really [00:14:10] an asset and he was never pressured that you have to do this or have to do that. Like she allowed us to just [00:14:15] be your be yourselves.

Prav Solanki: It’s funny. And you look back at that and I think [00:14:20] that, you know, your mom’s almost like doing everything that these parenting books tell you to do now, and all these sort [00:14:25] of things of how you bring children up and stuff, right, is to raise you to be to very decent human [00:14:30] beings and be the best of who you are. Right? So talk me through [00:14:35] the dentistry side of things. When did that so you were at school and you were smashing your grades, [00:14:40] right? You were. Whether you were working hard, revising or whatever you had was tuned in. I [00:14:45] can get me A’s and me A’s and all the rest of it. So I guess career options [00:14:50] were open to you. And what made you choose at what point during sort of school and that, did [00:14:55] you decide? Right? I mean, they were doing this.

Kevin Shannon: I was thinking about doing [00:15:00] maths. Um, okay. First of all, that was my kind of my first [00:15:05] thought. And then my cousin, she was working as a dental therapist and [00:15:10] she was like, oh, um, come in and just see what I do. So then I went in there [00:15:15] and then I went back, you know, and just did a bit of shadowing. Right. So this seems to be quite a good, a good thing. And I just thought, okay, [00:15:20] well I’ll do that. I thought about doing medicine as well, but I didn’t like the idea of which is this is a funny [00:15:25] thing, which I guess we can come back to, um, that I didn’t like the idea of I [00:15:30] don’t want to have to go through all this stuff and not really get a job until I’m in my, you know, early [00:15:35] get my real job until I’m in my early 30s. Um, yeah. So I kind [00:15:40] of liked the idea I could go and do that and do the dentistry. But what feels like what’s happened is that is exactly what’s happened. [00:15:45] I feel like the dentistry was just like this kind of thing that I did, and now I’ve found my real job. [00:15:50] Yeah. So, yeah, it’s kind of funny.

Prav Solanki: Um, and, um, [00:15:55] so at what point? So you did this work experience. What? At what point did you say. Yeah, I’m. [00:16:00] At what age? What what age were you at? What stage in your education were you where you were [00:16:05] sort of yeah, I’m going to be a dentist.

Kevin Shannon: Like 16 years old.

Prav Solanki: Wow. [00:16:10] And what was it? Was it that was it at that [00:16:15] stage that. It’s a career where I could make a decent living. Was [00:16:20] it? I’ve been on work experience and I’ve seen the patient interaction in the journey, and I want to do that. [00:16:25] Was it. I want to fix things like teeth. What? What was it at that age [00:16:30] that made you say, yeah, I’m at the dentist?

Kevin Shannon: I think it was all just a bit of of all, all of [00:16:35] that. The working with. I like the idea of being able to do things with my hands and make things. [00:16:40] I like that. Yeah. And then the money. Funny thing is, when you’re applying, you don’t [00:16:45] speak about the money. You know, it’s like, don’t don’t mention the money. But really. Yeah, it was very [00:16:50] much forefront in my mind. Yeah, I could do this job and I’ll do this and it’s like a 9 to 5 job and blah [00:16:55] blah blah. That was my thinking at the time. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Um, and you can make a few quid. [00:17:00] Going back to my brother, it was everything. It was just about money for him. That was it. So [00:17:05] he did work experience with a dentist. That dentist played [00:17:10] golf on a weekend, and he took my brother to play golf. He drove a really flashy Mercedes at [00:17:15] the time. And, you know, like like like we we grew up with [00:17:20] with, with no money. So my dad had a really rusty Ford Escort where [00:17:25] the bumper was hanging off. And then to see someone pull up in a Mercedes was like, wow, do [00:17:30] you know what I mean? That guy has made it. And so my brother was held back because I am going to become [00:17:35] that dentist. I’m going to make that money and I’m going to have that life. And so that was the the but you don’t [00:17:40] talk about it during the application process, do you? Uh, no. Even even though that’s [00:17:45] the that’s the driving force. And do you think that that coming from where you come sort of motivated [00:17:50] you further in terms of making that decision that actually, do you know what I’m going to break out of this [00:17:55] cycle? Yeah.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, yeah. And then and [00:18:00] then doing it, you know, going to university, it was just like just so much fun. [00:18:05] It was just absolutely brilliant. What did you go? At Dundee.

Prav Solanki: Dundee. [00:18:10] Okay, so not too far from home.

Kevin Shannon: Not. Not too far away from home, but also the only place [00:18:15] I got in. Right.

Prav Solanki: Okay, okay, so we went through [00:18:20] the application process. Was it interviews back then or was it just paper exercise or what [00:18:25] was the process like?

Kevin Shannon: My my interview was how did you get here? I got the [00:18:30] bus. Right. Okay. There’s a there’s a bus. Fine. I was like, yep. Okay. See [00:18:35] you in August. You know, it was like it was nothing complicated. It was as easy as that. [00:18:40] Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Prav Solanki: And so what was what was dental school like for you in Dundee [00:18:45] in terms of mixture of between work and fun and all the rest of it. And then [00:18:50] I sort of like the first time you were like properly away from home.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. So [00:18:55] it was like 17 moved out of the house, you know, moved away up. You’re up there. It [00:19:00] was quite good because pretty much everybody in the year, there was no one really from Dundee. Everybody [00:19:05] was from all over the place. So a good mix of people. Um, yeah. [00:19:10] It was just it was a fantastic, fantastic time. Just a lot of drinking and a lot of partying, a [00:19:15] lot of then a lot of late nights in the library, uh, and then.

Prav Solanki: Squeeze through your [00:19:20] exams. And during that time, when you were at uni, did you know what you wanted to do in dentistry? [00:19:25] Did you have an idea? I want to be a business owner or I wanted to do cosmetic dentistry. I’d [00:19:30] like to niche down on this. Or are you too focussed on partying [00:19:35] and drinking at the time?

Kevin Shannon: No, I thought, I thought I really, I thought I wanted [00:19:40] to be the best that I, that I could be in this. Yeah, I did think about at some point where I’ll go down the route [00:19:45] of this funny thinking now, but I’ll go down the route of like, you know, being a consultant in something [00:19:50] or being a specialist. Um, I did always want to have my own business. I always wanted [00:19:55] to, I thought I always wanted to own a practice as well. So that’s what. [00:20:00] That’s what I thought when I graduated, I thought, well, go and do the vet and [00:20:05] then we’ll see what happens. And then as I started doing that, I was thinking more about, [00:20:10] okay, well maybe get the business and whatnot. But then my thoughts on that started to change over time, really. [00:20:15]

Prav Solanki: So walk me through a potted history if you get your dental degree. [00:20:20] What happened next in terms of first job, second job, [00:20:25] whatever, and how dentistry panned out for you in that first job, was it what you [00:20:30] expected? Just talk me through your career since graduating.

Kevin Shannon: Wasn’t [00:20:35] what I expected. I mean, I guess it was what I expected. You’re doing the work. But that’s [00:20:40] really when I realised that I really had to kind of separate [00:20:45] out the day job from the night thing and not be bringing that home. I realised very quickly, [00:20:50] like, I can’t be bringing this stuff home, you know, when I’m like in. You’ve [00:20:55] made it, you’ve done a crown and it’s like not fitting in and you’ve had to do like six revisions on this crown [00:21:00] for this patient or whatever, because you’re just absolutely useless. You can’t just be like letting that go [00:21:05] through your head constantly at night. And so I did that job for a year. [00:21:10] And then I wanted to that was up in Dundee. And then I wanted to move back down to, to [00:21:15] Glasgow. So then I just, I took a job down and stayed here, but it was like a brand new, um, squat [00:21:20] practice that had opened up, but it was very NHS area. So [00:21:25] I was working like six days a week and hardly making anything because it was just extractions and NHS dentures.

Prav Solanki: And [00:21:30] did you, did you move back to Glasgow to be close back, close to mum or [00:21:35] family. What was the what pulled you back?

Kevin Shannon: Um, I just wanted to be down here. [00:21:40]

Prav Solanki: I guess you want to see that as you always seen that as home that draws [00:21:45] you back in terms of this is where home is or.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, this [00:21:50] is the home. But I just kind of wanted I’d never because we’d lived in Kilsyth. I hadn’t really lived in the city down here before. [00:21:55] So I just wanted to like, live down here in the city and see what it’s all about. So. [00:22:00] So we did that. We moved down here, did that job for [00:22:05] a for a year, and then I got offered pretty good job. Um, with good [00:22:10] dentist who was building up a group of practices. So it’s all [00:22:15] the marketing, the sales. Everything’s all really well organised. [00:22:20]

Prav Solanki: Who was that?

Kevin Shannon: Mark skimming.

Prav Solanki: I know that, yeah, yeah. [00:22:25] Hey, free group.

Kevin Shannon: Pain free group.

Prav Solanki: Yeah yeah yeah I know Mark. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. [00:22:30]

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. Give me that really good opportunity at that job in there. [00:22:35] And so because working with Mark then it was I was just doing a lot of courses [00:22:40] and learning a lot more and just trying to, just trying to really better myself with. With dentistry [00:22:45] and just trying to trying to do that. But, you know, I would just I think then I started to let things [00:22:50] get to me a bit too much with patients that are like, what? People [00:22:55] not liking the danger that you’ve, that there’s nothing wrong with it. And, uh, you [00:23:00] know, this, these kind of things. Um, and I didn’t I just didn’t get on with the manager [00:23:05] in there as well. And it’s upon reflection, when I look back at it now, you know, it’s [00:23:10] it’s on me, really. And it’s just because of. This is why what I’m [00:23:15] doing now really suits me, because I like to have the thing in my head and then and then go [00:23:20] for it. When I’m getting loads and loads of questions about why are you doing that with the Buddha? We can’t do that. But I’ve it [00:23:25] was just too much butting of heads because I’ve got my own ideas about things and I don’t really like [00:23:30] being told what to do. It’s taken a long time for me to realise that and accept that, [00:23:35] I think. Um, but yeah. So then after that I left there because I [00:23:40] just really couldn’t handle that anymore. Um, and then I got [00:23:45] another job. But that job. Then what happened as lockdown hit? So that was just like [00:23:50] a year and a half of, like, just floating about.

Prav Solanki: So before we go on to that, Kevin, the [00:23:55] Mark Simmons practice, did you start making money there? Yes. Is that [00:24:00] the first time in your life where you thought to myself, Now I’m making money?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. [00:24:05] Yeah, we did like, we did like, a lot of good things. You know, we had a lot of a [00:24:10] lot of a lot of fun, a lot of nice places. Seen a lot of good food eaten and all that. Just [00:24:15] a totally opposite life from what I’d grown up into. Totally [00:24:20] different world. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: And so at that point where you’d sort of said, right. [00:24:25] Was that a point you said, right, this the future is great. Now I’ve cracked it. I’m making money. [00:24:30] It’s great. Obviously, I’m bashing heads with people here in this role. And, you know, [00:24:35] on reflection, it’s me. Back then, maybe you didn’t realise that and you moved on, but it was at [00:24:40] this point in your life where you thought, I can make a few quid in this career now of I’ve made it. Was [00:24:45] that a sort of a and then it was like that was it at that point you sort of said, well, I can afford these luxuries [00:24:50] and stuff like that. Was that the turning point around that time where you went from that NHC [00:24:55] type role to this?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, I think so. But I don’t really know if it was like a like [00:25:00] a turning point, really, because I feel like I feel like I [00:25:05] didn’t really funny to say, like I didn’t really appreciate it so [00:25:10] much because I don’t think that I really enjoyed the job. I [00:25:15] didn’t it didn’t equate in my mind, you know, it didn’t equate [00:25:20] my mind that I’m going these things here are then given me this money. It was like, I need to do this job, and then [00:25:25] I’ve got this money. And like there was no happiness really in amongst it. It [00:25:30] wasn’t it wasn’t a fulfilling thing for me. Um, is.

Prav Solanki: Is that because you were [00:25:35] stressed in your role and you were having a hard time and you were bashing heads and pissed off that people didn’t like your dentures, [00:25:40] and that was mixed in with the money. And so the happiness you used [00:25:45] to get from having £0.30 in your pocket and bumming around on BMX and [00:25:50] climbing trees was a totally different thing for you.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, [00:25:55] yeah, I think I’m just not suited for it. It’s not my vocation [00:26:00] and that’s it. It’s dentistry is a vocation and I’ve and I’ve, I’ve done this thing and it’s not always meant to do [00:26:05] long term. Okay, because I think one of the things [00:26:10] that I just that I don’t particularly enjoy is hopefully having that list [00:26:15] of patients in front of me and going, I need to do all of this before I can [00:26:20] get home. Just it’s, you know, because I’m, I like to do things quickly. [00:26:25] And if I’m, if I have to see a patient and then there’s a bit of a gap or, you know, I’ve preferred the days when it was just [00:26:30] jam packed full. You get three patients in three different rooms and you’re running around about just, you know, like, yeah, [00:26:35] yeah. Because then the days going by quick, you know, if it was a bit of a, there’s a bit of a loner. [00:26:40] It’s just like sitting around going, oh come on, you know I could be doing this. I could be doing that, you know, all [00:26:45] these other things. Yeah. So what happened next?

Prav Solanki: You left that role and you got another, [00:26:50] another role somewhere else.

Kevin Shannon: Is that right? Yeah, I got another role. It was like a Covid. I just, I think [00:26:55] that was like a Covid year or Covid year in a bit. So that was like just, you know, bumming [00:27:00] around pretty much. And yeah. And then I got another I got another [00:27:05] good private job. And then that ended up pretty much in the same fashion. Uh, okay. You know, [00:27:10] not, you know, not not getting on with the managers again. Same same thing. So [00:27:15] then that’s where, you know, there’s a bit of a repetitive pattern here. Maybe, uh, me [00:27:20] maybe, maybe, maybe I am the problem and not everybody else. Yeah. Yeah. [00:27:25]

Prav Solanki: Um, yeah.

Kevin Shannon: So then I got this other, this other job, which I really actually enjoyed. [00:27:30] But then, you know, again.

Prav Solanki: Where was where was the other job? It’s still [00:27:35] still in and around Scotland, Glasgow, where it.

Kevin Shannon: Is around these bits. And I got this job and I really enjoyed [00:27:40] it. And, um, I was kind of building things up and it was getting like quite good. And [00:27:45] then, um, we were just chatting before and you were talking about how you got to this stage [00:27:50] and you just fired all the customers. So, you know, by this, by this point, I’m getting to that [00:27:55] point of like, patients are coming in, I’m going, I don’t want to work with you. Really. Um, and [00:28:00] I’ve had the had you’re talking about these dangers.

Prav Solanki: Why. So I’ve [00:28:05] got a couple of questions in and around this job that you really like. Why did you really like [00:28:10] it? Was the manager in sync with you at that time was, you know. Yes. Because it seems [00:28:15] it seems like the reason why you left these roles is you were butting heads with the manager, right? And [00:28:20] then you get into this role and you’ve just said, I really liked this. Now, was it because you were doing better dentistry, [00:28:25] making more money, or was it just that you had an easier time? Was getting less shit off your manager? What what [00:28:30] made you say that? I really enjoyed this job.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, I had a bit more freedom. Everything. [00:28:35] Everything at the end of the day comes back to me now about freedom. The [00:28:40] freedom to make the decisions, essentially. So yeah, we we had we could we could have the conversations, [00:28:45] we could work things out. And yeah, it was good that way. And. [00:28:50]

Prav Solanki: So you’re in this role. Manager’s not giving [00:28:55] you any grief. You’re enjoying it. And then you turn around. So you turn around. I’ll probably say this to a patient, I [00:29:00] don’t want to work with you, but in your mind, you may think it. I just don’t want to see this. I don’t want to treat [00:29:05] this patient. Whatever. So what? Just talk me through that and what I can next.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. [00:29:10] So I just said to the patient, you know, look, as you should see, [00:29:15] there’s a breakdown in the patient dentist relationship here. I don’t think that [00:29:20] I’m the best dentist for you. Yeah. You don’t seem to be happy with what I’m providing you, [00:29:25] even though you. I’ve asked you multiple times and you’re saying. Yes, but, you know, just [00:29:30] nothing was matching up. Um. And I was like, this is just a complaint waiting to happen. So [00:29:35] I said that I’ll help you find an identity or whatever, blah, blah, blah. And [00:29:40] they just did not like that. It was it was almost like, uh, from [00:29:45] from how I, how I was or what [00:29:50] the situations have happened in these other practices with these managers, how we butted heads, [00:29:55] then we butted heads with the patient. But this time it was like, you know, I [00:30:00] was getting it. This thing is my is my karma. That’s what [00:30:05] it felt like. So they began a tirade that lasted. [00:30:10] By Tay Tay ten months, 11 months [00:30:15] of just complaints. And they were [00:30:20] just essentially just poking everything just until they could find the, the, the link [00:30:25] in the chain. Um, but then again, I’d, [00:30:30] I’d found out from the indemnity that the this was a serial patient [00:30:35] that they were aware of this patient and who they were and what they were doing and all this kind of stuff.

Kevin Shannon: So [00:30:40] then when I found that out as well, then that’s when I was a bit like, I don’t I’m not having that. Like, this [00:30:45] is if they’re going to be doing this at like, I would much rather they did it to me because I can [00:30:50] handle it. Rather than they go round and they get they get the vet and some other practice and they just cause them [00:30:55] untold hell. And then somebody in their home, you know, specially it can’t get to sleep at night and all these things. I was like, no, I’m not [00:31:00] having it. I’m going to I’m going to stick up for myself with this. And. So [00:31:05] I fought against them, which was, you know, I should have just at the end of the day, just gone take [00:31:10] your money back because that’s eventually what happened at the end of the day. And that’s what made them go down. Yeah, [00:31:15] sure. But, you know, sometimes it’s hard to do that.

Prav Solanki: Yeah yeah yeah yeah [00:31:20] yeah. So what happened next in your career, Kevin. In this in this better job. [00:31:25] Obviously you had a problem. Patient management was okay. How did you get from there? To [00:31:30] retiring from dentistry and now being a [00:31:35] dental software entrepreneur. What was the journey?

Kevin Shannon: So, [00:31:40] well, off the back of those patients, I was like. If [00:31:45] I had. You don’t because my notes are not good. My [00:31:50] notes are not good. My consent forms, things just, [00:31:55] you know, and actually, I had quite a lot of stuff for those patients. But at the end of the day, it still wasn’t good [00:32:00] enough. So I was like, see if I could have just had like a for like a form that [00:32:05] said, look, and it’s not for the GDC, really. It was more just so I could say to them, look, I [00:32:10] told you all of this, it is here, it’s written down, you know, and if it was just easier for me to do [00:32:15] that. And so I thought, right, I’m going to make a thing that does that [00:32:20] and just see what happens. So I just gave it a go. It worked, and [00:32:25] I went on to found Dentist by Dentist Facebook group, and I just posted a [00:32:30] thing on there and said, I’ve made this thing I make, I make a WhatsApp group. Anybody can join it if they want to join it. [00:32:35]

Prav Solanki: And what was the thing? Tell me about this thing. What was it? Describe this thing that you met and you were still, at this point, [00:32:40] a practising clinical dentist. Right? Or not?

Kevin Shannon: Still dentistry?

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Still doing dentistry. [00:32:45] Describe the thing that you’d made and what problem is solved.

Kevin Shannon: So it’s like it’s [00:32:50] just simply what it is is it’s, uh, some buttons and each one says composite bridge, [00:32:55] crown, whatever. All your different treatments. Yeah. And then you just put the patient’s name in on the website. [00:33:00]

Prav Solanki: Interface type thing.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. On the website interface. So then you just log on under [00:33:05] that, click the button did, did, did whatever treatments you want to do composite bridge extraction [00:33:10] hit generate and then give you a big form just like an under 10s. [00:33:15] So I posted that on people are like oh and it generated a bit. It’s funny when I posted that I was like, so like, oh my [00:33:20] god, are they going to delete my post? Am I going to? I was so anxious about the film thing. I think if people are going to think I’m an idiot, I’m [00:33:25] going to anyway. And then I ended up like over 200 dentists in the Facebook group and in the WhatsApp [00:33:30] group. So I was like, okay, like there’s something there’s something in this here that.

Prav Solanki: I’m still trying to wrap my [00:33:35] head around. What? You created a web interface where you press Composite bridge or whatever. You press a button and it [00:33:40] generates a form. What does that generates a form with what? Like what [00:33:45] information or what consent form. Right. Yes. Okay. Got you. Sorry I [00:33:50] missed the point there. So basically what you’ve done is you’ve created a piece of software [00:33:55] that no matter what treatment is press a couple of buttons. Boom. There’s your consent [00:34:00] form. Hand it over to the patient. It’s got you back. Yeah. And you spent the [00:34:05] time going through all the information that you had about consent forms and thought, I’m [00:34:10] going to make life easier for them. Now when it comes to consent, I’ve got a button you can press no matter what treatment [00:34:15] is. Boom. There’s concern for any kind of commercial thing [00:34:20] behind this. Or was this just like a, hey, I’m going to give this out to the world and [00:34:25] see what feedback I get, and I want to get some validation from my community. [00:34:30] I’ve, I’ve, I created something that’s only useful for me. Or is it useful for the rest of the community? [00:34:35]

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. I mean, there was a bit of that. There was a bit of as well thinking like, you know, after [00:34:40] having that with those patients, I was thinking, is this, is this what I want to be doing? You know, [00:34:45] like, because I’m, I waking up in the morning, am I happy? And I’m starting to [00:34:50] get to that realisation of that maybe this just isn’t the thing for me. So [00:34:55] yeah. So I guess I just I put it out there. I mean, there was, there’s obviously the thought of [00:35:00] the commercial output of it, but at that point in time, um, [00:35:05] it was like I was just giving people a tenner just to cover some running [00:35:10] costs. And like a few people signing up, a few people signed up, like almost straight away, [00:35:15] and they’re still paying a tenner. Ten a month, ten a month. They, uh, [00:35:20] and they’re still paying a tenner. I’ve just let for for the early support. I was like, you can keep it. [00:35:25] You can keep it as a tenner. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Early adopters. Yeah. Um, founding members.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. Indeed. [00:35:30] Indeed. Which I’m very grateful for. Um, but. Yeah, but then the feedback [00:35:35] was good and then it was just all the other ideas and things that people were having. And then I was thinking, well, there must [00:35:40] then there must be a way that we can just make everything else more efficient, because I did, you [00:35:45] know, I I’ve got that obsession with efficiency. Everything’s like, you know, you pick [00:35:50] that up and you use it until it’s done with, and then you put it down and then. Having [00:35:55] the bend in the right place so the nurse isn’t having to walk around the boat. Um, I [00:36:00] always like the the Ray Kroc story about setting up the McDonald’s and having all. Yeah, you [00:36:05] know, systemised.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Kevin Shannon: And there’s that. There’s the movie where they make it and [00:36:10] you see them designing it and the the basketball field, and they draw it all out and stuff like that, you know, [00:36:15] just having it all. So you’re just not wasting any movements, I get it. [00:36:20] Um, so I thought that from that after that point, um, I [00:36:25] thought, well, I’ll just have a look at maybe doing some notes next, because that’s the thing I was rubbish at, um. [00:36:30]

Prav Solanki: As well. Okay. So what happened? So what happened next? [00:36:35] You’ve created this piece of software, you maintain a tenner a month off a bunch of dentists. [00:36:40] You’re still working as a dentist. But in your mind, what’s going on? [00:36:45] Are you saying I actually want to quit? What did you say? I want to quit dentistry. [00:36:50] Until full time into this software development. Quick and easy [00:36:55] for them was the returning point was a rapacious what what [00:37:00] happened? And what was that day where you said, right, I’m done. I’m handing the drive up now for God.

Kevin Shannon: Hey, [00:37:05] well, I think I was. We went because you’re in Manchester, aren’t you? Yeah, [00:37:10] yeah. Had a big night out in Manchester. And then after that, you know, rough [00:37:15] hung over and things. I was like, man, this is just not the, the [00:37:20] way to be going through life. I don’t think so. I was like, I’m going to make a few changes. [00:37:25] So I started making just start making those changes. So I stopped. So [00:37:30] I left my work at that point and I thought, I’m going to give this my all here [00:37:35] with really no safety net whatsoever. Just dive in and. [00:37:40] Diving two feet first, because I knew if I was still kind of hovering about [00:37:45] dentistry. I just I just didn’t see how that was going to work. I was like, am I [00:37:50] enjoy this? Like when I’m doing this, I’m it’s filling me with like some sort of pleasure. [00:37:55] So, um, maybe I should just give it my all. So that’s what I did. Stop [00:38:00] working in.

Prav Solanki: Making that decision of stopping the work. Was [00:38:05] there a moment where you thought, okay, now the software bit is making me enough money for me [00:38:10] to afford to give up? Was there was there a a financial decision here, or did you just think, you know, [00:38:15] dentistry is not for me. And in order for me to give this everything, [00:38:20] I need to stop doing dentistry. Where was your head at that point? Because I [00:38:25] speak to a lot of I have a want to be business owners or business owners that have got like, let’s [00:38:30] say, a side hustle and this, that and the other. And the advice I usually give them is this you’ve [00:38:35] just opened a squat and you’re working three associate jobs. There’s a point where you’re going to have to give [00:38:40] those up and put 110% into that squat, otherwise it’s going to be as successful as [00:38:45] 15% of your time, energy and headspace you’re putting into it. So you either go all [00:38:50] in. Will you carry on plodding along, and your business will always be a fraction [00:38:55] of what it is. And then that’s always the advice I give when it comes to sort of taking [00:39:00] this high risk approach. And where is your head at that time? What [00:39:05] were you thinking in terms of, well, what money have I got coming in? Did you have some savings in the bank [00:39:10] and thought, do you know what, I can cover myself for a few months or a year or whatever, but I’m going to go all in on this [00:39:15] now. And actually, I’ve had enough of dentistry. Well, where was your head?

Kevin Shannon: I [00:39:20] definitely couldn’t afford it. Definitely couldn’t afford to do it at that point. Um, [00:39:25] interesting. My. Yeah, my partner has supported [00:39:30] the beginning of this business. Like, it would have been completely impossible to do it without [00:39:35] Sophie. Like allowing me just to live.

Prav Solanki: Kudos [00:39:40] to Sophie.

Kevin Shannon: Kudos to Sophie. Yes yes indeed. Yes indeed. Brilliant. [00:39:45] Yes. She’s she’s allowed me to to do it. She’s like being because [00:39:50] this isn’t like to me this does not feel like real work. You know, like getting up and just mucking [00:39:55] about on a computer all day is is so easy compared to dentistry, [00:40:00] you know, it’s that it’s like it’s such a difficult it’s a difficult job. It’s [00:40:05] you need to work so hard like this is just, you know, this is nothing [00:40:10] really compared to doing that. So I’m really grateful for her for, uh, allowing [00:40:15] me to do that. But yeah, no, I couldn’t I couldn’t afford it. But that’s why I’ve, I [00:40:20] it’s one of those things I’ve don’t really I’ve never really taken a pause to think and make a decision. I think with all [00:40:25] these things we’ve been speaking about the dentistry, the jobs. I’ve just [00:40:30] always, um. Made a snap decision and just just random. Um, [00:40:35] which is. I guess in the short term being [00:40:40] to my detriment. But over the longer term, I think all the things have worked out because it’s all led to this [00:40:45] point.

Prav Solanki: I always think that certainly [00:40:50] the people I work with are myself the hardest, [00:40:55] the biggest, the boldest decisions that I’ve made or even [00:41:00] those that I’ve observed other people have made have led to the biggest successes. [00:41:05] Like, how did that decision or the more difficult it is, or where you’re at that cliff edge and you [00:41:10] think, should I jump? Or should I just ease back and get myself a rope and lowered [00:41:15] myself down slowly? Do you see what I mean? Like those that have made the leap and the [00:41:20] risky jumps. Those are the decisions that have had the biggest impact. [00:41:25] And it just sounds like you’ve just sort of like, screw it. Just going all in now. Right. [00:41:30] Yeah. Um, this is it.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. But like you’re saying, there’s like, I know what that other [00:41:35] I know what that other road is. If you go that other road, you know what’s going to happen. It’s going to be a [00:41:40] bit easier and a bit more comfortable, you know? And that’s fine. Maybe. But yeah, um, [00:41:45] this is a bit more of an adventure because I have absolutely no idea what’s going to happen. [00:41:50] Um, I always had a I’ve always had a path. Set out for me [00:41:55] from school. You could do this. You get these grades, you go here. You do this year, you do that, you do [00:42:00] five years of this, then you do the VTI, then you get the job. Then I got the [00:42:05] job and I was like, oh my God. Like, well, you know, 35 years of this. And it just I [00:42:10] felt like I was just gonna say it. Yeah, like I could. And that’s why I didn’t want to get a practice, [00:42:15] because there was, there was all there could have been opportunities for that to buy any practices or anything. And I just thought [00:42:20] I. So then I was at that, I was at that crossroads of like, I, where am I going to go with this? Because I [00:42:25] do not want to own a practice. It just wasn’t it just wasn’t for me. After thinking it was something that I really wanted to do. [00:42:30] Um, yeah. Yeah. So yeah.

Prav Solanki: Okay. [00:42:35] So you’ve got this concern for generally are you [00:42:40] getting ideas from clinicians? So tell me about now [00:42:45] your journey as a computer maker about a software [00:42:50] guy, SAS producer call it whatever you want. Right. You know, I think I was mentioning [00:42:55] earlier that, you know, I think I signed up to a free trial period of this software. [00:43:00] And as a non clinician, I mucked about with it and I pretended to play [00:43:05] dentist. And the AI generated a transcript of what I’ve said, which [00:43:10] is a mancunian. It says it’s not an easy thing to do. There’s other software platforms that think I’m Welsh and, [00:43:15] um, it produced a pretty accurate transcript. But what I, what I was really [00:43:20] impressed with was the summary that it produced and the notes. And then I spoke to jazz [00:43:25] about it and I said, this is effing insane. They just did this, that. And it really goes, mate, you’ve [00:43:30] not scratched the surface. Have a look at jazz mode. He goes, what that will do. [00:43:35] And this is how I describe your software. And I like to look at things from a very, [00:43:40] very simple point of view is that I can now have a consultation with [00:43:45] a patient flicky software on and wear a microphone and forget about my notes. [00:43:50] And then what I do is that instead of thinking, I’ve got to do this consultation [00:43:55] and write the notes and do all the content razzmatazz, I just have a conversation with gauged [00:44:00] with that patient or jazz says what he’s done is he’s slightly [00:44:05] changed how he talks to patients so that the software captures things [00:44:10] in the right way. But it’s small tweaks. And then at the end of the consultation, [00:44:15] the notes are written, but he’ll still cast his eye over it and maybe tweak [00:44:20] a few things.

Prav Solanki: But he’s telling me now that the amount of tweaking he has to do is become less [00:44:25] and less, and you notice it don’t. You’re not worried? As my nurse got my back, [00:44:30] did she capture that thing I said or this thing? And the AI [00:44:35] summary is insane. And then it produces your treatment letter for you, and that’s pretty decent as [00:44:40] well. And so when I sort of like, how do you speak to this guy? This is brilliant. Absolutely [00:44:45] amazing. And if jazz endorses it then it must be okay. And [00:44:50] so we see you here at this point where you’ve created a piece of software that I think is [00:44:55] is amazing. And from my perspective, somebody who teaches sales [00:45:00] and communication and is involved in that part of the patient journey for a lot of practices [00:45:05] and a lot of the courses that are done, anything that gives you time back [00:45:10] with the patient so you can develop a better relationship with them, have more rapport, and [00:45:15] not be thinking in the background and distracted about this thing called nurse [00:45:20] has got a bit positive, right? So you’ve produced this software [00:45:25] is where it is. Tell me about like the day in the life of a SAS product [00:45:30] owner. Where’s your head at now? How many people are using your platform? What’s [00:45:35] the best thing about it and what’s the worst that what are the bugs? Tell me about [00:45:40] the things that have gone wrong, as well as as somebody who’s got a piece of software myself that [00:45:45] loads of stuff go wrong. So I just want to learn about the highs and lows of that. Right. [00:45:50] As somebody who’s created a piece of software that people have signed up to. Yeah.

Kevin Shannon: So [00:45:55] I guess the day in the life is, is I’ll get a wake up and [00:46:00] I go. Which, and this is interesting because as a dentist, [00:46:05] I never woke up and I thought, right, how can I go and help people today? It was all it was always, how [00:46:10] can I go and put as much money as I possibly can into my pocket?

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Kevin Shannon: You know, just [00:46:15] being honest was very much.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, yeah.

Kevin Shannon: Pretty much the thinking. But it’s now.

Prav Solanki: And [00:46:20] what’s and what’s getting in the way of the pocket is a few fill ins, some align the treatment blah [00:46:25] blah, blah, blah blah. And those are jobs and tasks that you’re going to do that’s going to generate [00:46:30] cash at the end of the month. And that is purely how you saw it, right?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. Just completely like [00:46:35] a transactional thing. But it’s not a good way to be doing that job. Cool. Okay. [00:46:40] What’s the shift?

Prav Solanki: What’s the shift now? As, as as a guy who’s producing [00:46:45] software. What is this. What is the shift for you? Helping people.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, [00:46:50] okay, I can go, right? I wake up and I go, right, how can I? What can I do that’s going to help people today? [00:46:55] And I can do it all day. I could start at 6:00 and I could finish at 10:00 at night. I could [00:47:00] finish at 11:00. I could be literally sitting there all day. Some days I get up and I go, oh my God, I’ve [00:47:05] hardly moved today. My legs are like, you know that? Like jelly and numb.

Prav Solanki: And another [00:47:10] feeling. Yeah.

Kevin Shannon: So but it’s just like it’s complete passion. Like I really just enjoy [00:47:15] it because you’re doing different things, chatting to people, sorting things out for people and improving [00:47:20] it, building other features. Like, I can see [00:47:25] where it’s all because you’re asking me, you know, what was my product roadmap and all that for this? Like, [00:47:30] it all just exists in my head and on the back of napkins that are all scribbled around about the place at the moment. It needs to just get a little [00:47:35] bit more tightened up. It’s called it’s called forward. I think that’s really the next [00:47:40] kind of stages building a team. So I really need to do. But yeah, so the [00:47:45] the good things are well it’s at the moment it’s in over 350 practices. [00:47:50] We’ve got 350 practices using it. So that’s.

Prav Solanki: Amazing.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. [00:47:55] And a really short period of time. And you got.

Prav Solanki: 300 and have you got 350 subscribers [00:48:00] using it.

Kevin Shannon: Um, yes.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Kevin Shannon: Pushed [00:48:05] over that.

Prav Solanki: And out of interest of those 350 [00:48:10] subscribers, how many of them are using it every day in their [00:48:15] day to day consultation process?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, but probably [00:48:20] looking a bit like it’s probably about 80% at the moment. What’s [00:48:25] happening is it’s becoming like an integral thing. [00:48:30] Yeah. You know, if sometimes I’ll get these messages like, oh, this is it’s not working, you know, and [00:48:35] it’s like your microphone is running out of battery, you know. But it’s the, the, the panic [00:48:40] that I can sense is like, oh, this is yeah. You know, it kind of makes me smile a little bit [00:48:45] like I’ve built something that’s become so useful that without it it’s like, oh, what am I going to do? [00:48:50] I’m actually going to have to write this, write these notes. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: And so [00:48:55] it’s almost becoming the way of working for clinicians for, for at least the I [00:49:00] would say, well, maybe 300 out of the 350 or so clinicians who are using it. It’s become [00:49:05] that way of working. Right?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. Um, yeah. So we’re over [00:49:10] like 20,000 notes created.

Prav Solanki: Wow.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. [00:49:15] It’s just it’s crazy.

Prav Solanki: So how many how much communication do [00:49:20] you have with your users? Do you have a sort of. Do you get a ton of emails every day and you say, great, I’ve got to sift [00:49:25] through this. There’s these 20 are asking this question, which I’ve answered [00:49:30] a hundred times. So I’m going to create a little video and send this out. What’s your how do you deal [00:49:35] with the product feedback? For us, when we’re developing products, we take [00:49:40] everything in from our customers. Then that goes to the team. And [00:49:45] then we look at it and say, right, what is the biggest impact we can have with our software? [00:49:50] That’s going to be the easiest thing to implement that will impact the most people. And then we have [00:49:55] like a matrix of what our roadmap looks like and how are we going to do it. How do you deal with [00:50:00] like with that many users, all the people requesting things, [00:50:05] telling you, hey, this isn’t working. If only you could do this. It’s just done this. It’s just done that. What? What’s your [00:50:10] day look like? Are you dealing with that throughout the day? Are you dealing with actually [00:50:15] producing, writing code or producing the software? What what what [00:50:20] are you doing?

Kevin Shannon: I don’t really have too much problems with people using it [00:50:25] because I’ve done the job. It’s built to be easy to use, [00:50:30] easy to update, easy for dentists. And the little example I give is like [00:50:35] your GI, you know, any product that you buy or material that you use [00:50:40] has this simple instructions. You put this on and you do this and you do it like a monkey could do it. [00:50:45] That’s how I’ve built it. Like it should be easy to understand. There is a [00:50:50] kind of small learning curve with it, so it’s a lot of the time it’s trying to explain the concept [00:50:55] of how it works, because there’s a specific concept behind it that [00:51:00] once that’s understood, then the rest of it’s just it’s all pretty straightforward. So I [00:51:05] have some times just a little bit of explaining of the concept, um, or [00:51:10] adjusting some things for people. At the moment I’m just trying to do [00:51:15] some, um, uh, marketing things, just kind of get it out there a bit more making [00:51:20] making some ads, making videos, these kind of things. These are all these kind of things that I learned [00:51:25] when I was working with Mark, like how important that is. Yeah. To be doing, getting getting [00:51:30] the videos, getting the stuff and all that. Um, the thing I love the most is the coding. [00:51:35] I love doing it. I love creating the okay, how can we get this to work? And just the problem [00:51:40] solving of that, however, it’s I don’t know if it’s where I’m going to be best placed. [00:51:45] Going forward, you know, as we’re building a team up and whatnot. [00:51:50] So it’s a really.

Prav Solanki: Interesting thing you said earlier on in this podcast. And he said when [00:51:55] I was thinking about dentistry. I was also thinking about doing [00:52:00] maths. Yeah, right. And and what [00:52:05] you do and certainly what my software engineers, the way their brain thinks [00:52:10] and they’re some of the best software engineers are very good mathematicians. [00:52:15] Yeah. And they use mathematical basis to their problem [00:52:20] solving, if that makes sense. And as soon as you said that, I thought to myself [00:52:25] that maybe the reason why you’ve landed here is your brain is [00:52:30] a logical mathematical software development type setup [00:52:35] where that’s where you get your kicks. Yeah. That’s what [00:52:40] drives you. That’s what gives you your sense of accomplishment. And even now you’ve just [00:52:45] said, I like getting stuck into the weeds of the code. Yeah. Which [00:52:50] I am guessing, Kevin, because you are not a software developer by [00:52:55] education or trade or whatever, you kind of having to learn it as you go along as [00:53:00] well, right? So you write in the code, you’re learning about it, you’re figuring out how to make it more efficient [00:53:05] or whatever, but you’re not a software developer as such. And [00:53:10] so I think it’s incredibly amazing that you’ve built a piece of software that’s 350 [00:53:15] people are paying money for, and it’s making a difference and it’s impacting [00:53:20] their every day. And have you written every line of code? Yeah, yeah, [00:53:25] yeah. It’s pretty amazing isn’t it?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. It’s been a lot of YouTubing [00:53:30] and all that good stuff and googling things, but it’s [00:53:35] just like it’s all there for you. Like it’s, you know, if it’s if it’s the kind of thing that you [00:53:40] that you like to know, it’s there. And that’s [00:53:45] the thing, you know, dentistry’s very closed with it’s, um, education. Everything’s [00:53:50] you go to university and after that, if you want to learn anything more, it’s, you got to go do all these courses, all [00:53:55] this kind of stuff. Tech is just all out there on online for free to learn.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, [00:54:00] yeah, but you can say that. But but how many people have implemented [00:54:05] and executed this. Right. So it’s all about execution as well right. Yeah for sure. [00:54:10] And so what what are the next steps for digital TCL as you see it [00:54:15] Kevin. Like I’m assuming now that um, you don’t need to rely too much on something.now [00:54:20] and um, you can you can treat it to dinner every now and then and, um, you [00:54:25] know, take her out and whatnot, and she’s not having to support you as much. And things are [00:54:30] looking better financially for you.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, yeah, we’ve got a bit more freedom. [00:54:35] Um, again, although, like, I was, we went out for dinner last night, [00:54:40] and, uh, that was a little treat. Okay, let’s go get some dinner or we’ll go to the place that you like for food. And then. So [00:54:45] we ended up having anaphylaxis, so I don’t really know how to treat that was maybe I should just stay [00:54:50] on the computer, you know. Um. Yeah. Yeah. But the. Yeah, [00:54:55] I think my, my vision has always been that if you’re doing something on a computer. So it [00:55:00] started off with a consent forms, but it’s also just the repetitive nature of everything on the computer and having [00:55:05] to or when I click on the patient record I have [00:55:10] to click here, click there, click there to find out the piece of information that I want to find. I [00:55:15] just want I see this vision where I just everything is really efficient. It just all [00:55:20] works the way you want it to work. Um, like an iPhone of [00:55:25] management management software in the in the dental surgery [00:55:30] essentially like the real vision is you chart, you do your composite, you charge it [00:55:35] through and everything else happens. That’s it. All you need to do is just click that charge charge button. [00:55:40] That’s it. That’s what I want to make.

Prav Solanki: An absolutely [00:55:45] seamless user experience. Right. The the simplest and the simplest requires [00:55:50] no training, requires no instruction manual. You [00:55:55] just go there, press that button. Everything else just happens in the background.

Kevin Shannon: Ideally, [00:56:00] you know, it sounds a bit like a pipe dream, isn’t it? No, it’s a bit, uh, a bit mad, but I [00:56:05] think I can see it. And I think this is it’s my naivety and [00:56:10] my lack of because I’ve spoken to people that this is what I want to do. And they go, oh, we’ve thought about [00:56:15] doing this and, you know, but because I’ve not really thought about doing it and I don’t have that knowledge [00:56:20] about it, then I’m like, okay, well, I’ll just I’ll just give it a go and deal with the challenges as and when they, they arise. [00:56:25] Um, rather than sitting there worrying, I won’t be able to do this, am I going to get that done? Because [00:56:30] I’ll just. I’ll not get anywhere if that’s, um. The mode of modus operandi.

Prav Solanki: So [00:56:35] what? So where? Where is your digital teeth? You got 300 [00:56:40] users. Now, if you to wave a magic wand or if you say, look. Well, this is [00:56:45] what my dream is. Where is it? How far can this product go, [00:56:50] do you think in terms of I know you said you’ve got a few clients in the States and they’re [00:56:55] not as worried about their nose, so it’s not as big a deal or whatever. So do [00:57:00] you see this? Do you see yourself sort of sort of dominating the UK [00:57:05] market mainly. Is that is that the addressable market for you or are you sort of thinking [00:57:10] actually the boundaries are not anywhere, and you want to take this product [00:57:15] essentially global? What does that what does that look like if we if we [00:57:20] if let’s say we were sat here in, um, 1st of June 2025 [00:57:25] and we were sat having a meal or a drink at a bar [00:57:30] or something, and you looked back to this day, what must [00:57:35] have happened for you to say this has been a success? I have really smashed [00:57:40] this year. What’s what’s in your vision for the next 12 months?

Kevin Shannon: Um, [00:57:45] I want to I want to get, like, the next thing I’ve got coming is [00:57:50] a treatment planner process. So have that coming in with users using that [00:57:55] and then. Have probably. Also [00:58:00] more just more people on this, because the more people that are using this, the better is going to get. [00:58:05] The more people that are using digital TCO is just going to get exponentially better. But the main thing [00:58:10] is, is I think to have like version one of the patient management system. Yeah, [00:58:15] built and maybe a couple of people on using that. That [00:58:20] would be the ideal thing for the for the next year. But [00:58:25] over maybe the next 5 to 10, I would like it to be just a thing that [00:58:30] everybody uses. It’s just that this is just the thing that’s in the in [00:58:35] the.

Prav Solanki: Lack of trust we need safe.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah. And like a scanner should be for [00:58:40] everybody as well. That should be a thing that everybody.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, just has.

Kevin Shannon: Scanners, intraoral camera. [00:58:45]

Prav Solanki: But it sounds like it is the thing for those 300 dentists, [00:58:50] right? That, like you say, that if they think it’s broken or something, it’s like the world’s [00:58:55] falling apart, right? You can sense the anxiety that. Hold on a minute. My digital tko’s not [00:59:00] here today. Um, see what I mean? So I think I think it is the same for, [00:59:05] for a lot of people right now. Um, yeah. I guess it’s just taking that to the masses, [00:59:10] right?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, I think I think really that would be the answer is to have my [00:59:15] 1000 true fans. Because that’s really what I’m trying. That’s really what I’m trying to build. I’m really [00:59:20] trying to make something for for the people. So it’s so cheesy, right? But like, [00:59:25] if I could have that in a year’s time, that would be pretty good. Amazing.

Prav Solanki: Okay. [00:59:30] And, um, so how do people get access to this? I know you’ve got, um, [00:59:35] obviously your website and stuff, and, uh, do you offer, like a free trial or something like that? [00:59:40] So Dennis can can play around with it and whatnot? How if, if I’m [00:59:45] a dentist listening to this podcast, I think, oh, this digital SEO sounds all right. How do [00:59:50] I get involved and where do I sign up?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, just Google it. Go [00:59:55] with the website digital Tsuyako UK. Uh, you can try it for 28 days [01:00:00] for free. There’s different methods, so you can just dive straight into doing the full appointment [01:00:05] recordings, but you don’t even have to do that. Like there’s other there’s other things that it’s all [01:00:10] fully explained out. I take I take people through the process of how I would recommend that they actually [01:00:15] go about using it. Um, but to really to start off, you just need any sort of microphone [01:00:20] that you can plug in and you’re good to go. You have a button, you speak your notes [01:00:25] and then that’s it. It’s done. So just try it. Try 28 days. Yeah, hopefully it just [01:00:30] makes life a little bit easier. What are the.

Prav Solanki: What are the downsides of this piece of software? [01:00:35] I spoke to a few dentists about and they said, yeah, but what if the AI gets things wrong [01:00:40] and then drops me in the shit and and stuff like that? So have you had any sort [01:00:45] of negatives about that?

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, but people do worry about that. Like the [01:00:50] AI is going to make stuff up. But yeah, it’s not designed. It’s not designed [01:00:55] that way. Because what it does is it takes your voice input and converts [01:01:00] that into notes. So it’s not making anything up. It’s just taking what you tell it and writing [01:01:05] it out nicely. And a very, very simplified format. Um, [01:01:10] but at the end of the day, it’s like it’s just a note taking system. Like anything else, it’s still [01:01:15] the dentist responsibility to check it and make sure that. That [01:01:20] is correct because it’s there. It’s your patience, your record. At the end of the day, what [01:01:25] it does is, is it just makes it 95% easier to do that.

Prav Solanki: Um. [01:01:30]

Kevin Shannon: The other the other problem is, um, there’s a couple of funny things. [01:01:35] Well, well, the other problem is people not understanding the overall concept of it because it works differently [01:01:40] from other systems, which is other things like addition and subtraction [01:01:45] to the notes. This is not addition or subtraction. That’s not how it works. Um, it addition subtraction [01:01:50] to templates. Sorry. Um, doesn’t work like that. And the the funniest [01:01:55] thing that people have a thing is about the output style. They don’t like the style, they [01:02:00] would rather they could have bold headings. And it said the tooth in this [01:02:05] format or that format. Never mind that it does it for you automatically. It’s not. Yeah. No it’s not I [01:02:10] like I like to have a line break at that point, you know whatever. So yeah. Are you working [01:02:15] on that? Um, yeah. Working on it. However, it’s very small. [01:02:20] You know, there’s a balance that has to be struck between not [01:02:25] having to do any work and the style [01:02:30] of the output.

Prav Solanki: I get it, you know, the, the we’ve got, we’ve [01:02:35] got the piece of software. Right. And we got a lot of, um, a lot of people saying, well, if we could do this or we [01:02:40] could do that, and we think, just think about what it’s already doing for you. Right? It’s a bit like patience, [01:02:45] I think. I take it like this. It’s a bit like patients who come in and their teeth [01:02:50] are mashed. Right. Absolute car crash. Right. And you come in and you give them [01:02:55] perfectly straight teeth and they look beautiful and all the rest of it, and they come back and go, but this little [01:03:00] tooth is a millimetre off. And this little thing gave me like look at you before [01:03:05] picture, you buffoon. Yeah. This is where you started me and but [01:03:10] you know, I think I think the thing is with software that you will always have people [01:03:15] giving you feedback. And I think feedback is, is a great [01:03:20] thing for product development. It’s just. How [01:03:25] you integrate that into the future. Right. And so maybe making this [01:03:30] thing bold is not as important. And headaches and migraines line breaks [01:03:35] as as writing your treatment plan for you for example. Right. Like [01:03:40] that’s definitely a bigger, more important problem to solve. And you’ve just got to manage those challenges. [01:03:45] Has there ever been a point during the development of this [01:03:50] where things went absolutely tits up and you had a really low moment.

Kevin Shannon: And [01:03:55] it’s not that’s not happening quite yet. There was a day, though, where [01:04:00] um, it was quite early on. And I [01:04:05] just thought, I think I just actually it’s got shared around a bit. And then a [01:04:10] WhatsApp group run about it’s not my, not my thing that I had, but another group. Yeah, it was [01:04:15] like a big burst of signups. It happened. And then that day it just all completely crashed [01:04:20] and I wasn’t anywhere near the flat I was that was out. So I had to sprint halfway across Glasgow, [01:04:25] um, to get back in here. And I had to very, very quickly recode [01:04:30] just, just everything that was like the that [01:04:35] was the how long did that take?

Prav Solanki: How long did that take?

Kevin Shannon: Well, I say record everything. I just did the certain [01:04:40] bit. I just fixed the, the crash bits. I think it went down about 11:00 [01:04:45] and I had it back up by one. So a couple of hours. But this is this is the thing. It’s just me that’s doing this. [01:04:50] So I’m. Going forward as well, that in a year’s time, having a having [01:04:55] a team a bit of. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Do you have any concerns [01:05:00] about that next step like going from UI, the [01:05:05] developer, the marketeer, the customer support, the [01:05:10] guy that deals with things when shit goes wrong, the product roadmap guy [01:05:15] you are the business right? Do you have any sort of concerns [01:05:20] anxieties like you must have thought about what the future is. What’s holding you back? What? What [01:05:25] are your, um, what’s stopping you jumping off that cliff and making that leap and setting out on the [01:05:30] go for it now. No.

Kevin Shannon: What about the team and all this kind of stuff and giving it up? [01:05:35]

Prav Solanki: Well, you did it. You did it with.

Kevin Shannon: Dentistry.

Prav Solanki: Right? You hung your drill up and said, I’m out of it. Yeah. [01:05:40] Dropped your mike and said, this is me done now, right? I’m going fully Sophie’s [01:05:45] support me. Happy days. Right. What’s the next big [01:05:50] leap with this? And is it getting the team? Is anything holding you back? [01:05:55]

Kevin Shannon: Uh, there’s nothing really holding me back, I guess. [01:06:00] For example.

Prav Solanki: For example. Trust.

Kevin Shannon: Um, [01:06:05] I’m not so sure about this trust thing. I think I would trust people. I mean, it is [01:06:10] I am a bit of a control freak over it and that trying not to micromanage every single [01:06:15] detail of it. Yeah. But I think because I’ve been, you know, [01:06:20] speaking to people, they’ve said, you know, oh. You could hire, you know, software [01:06:25] engineer and things like that. And I think that I’m not sure if that’s the road that would go down for building [01:06:30] the team. It would be more the marketing and the interesting sales. And, [01:06:35] you know, all those kind of things would be more, more beneficial. Yeah. [01:06:40] Well, hope is holding me back really. Just even more. I [01:06:45] either need to go out and get investment or I need more numbers so that I can pay people. [01:06:50]

Prav Solanki: Uh, yeah. Essentially.

Kevin Shannon: So at the moment, it’s got to a point where [01:06:55] it’s allowing me to live my life. And from the business and do all this kind of [01:07:00] thing. But it’s not a stage where I could be going out and hiring a team of people. [01:07:05] So it’s either that I just keep on bootstrapping it or it’s investment.

Prav Solanki: Okay, so [01:07:10] how many subscribers do you think you would need? Before [01:07:15] you’re able to. So it’s either a [01:07:20] investment thing or it’s a I’ve got enough subscribers so that [01:07:25] it’s making enough money to be able to fund the team. Where does [01:07:30] that what does that need to be for you to say? Right, I can get a team on board now, whether [01:07:35] it’s marketing, whether it’s the software development side of things. I would [01:07:40] be in a marketeer myself and a software [01:07:45] guy. I’d probably argue that you need the software people, [01:07:50] right? But that’s that’s just my opinion, right? You’ve without [01:07:55] that, you’ve single handedly created a phenomenal platform [01:08:00] that supports 300 plus dentists. I mean, that’s that’s [01:08:05] phenomenal. For somebody who was bootstrapped that as an individual and done [01:08:10] that herself. So, um, don’t necessarily listen to what I’m telling you to do. Um, it’s [01:08:15] just what I would do. But where does that need to be for you to be able to say, right, this business [01:08:20] can wash its own face and I can get him on board. Is it is it that [01:08:25] thousand raving fans? Is it does it need to be more than that?

Kevin Shannon: I think things started [01:08:30] getting a team sooner than that. To be honest, it’s probably getting quite close. Maybe another 100 to [01:08:35] 100, and your work will really be able to get people on board. But that’s something [01:08:40] that I really don’t know anything about, you know? So it’s really. But as with everything, [01:08:45] it’s just. You’ve just got the go. Go for it and learn as you go and make your mistakes. It’s [01:08:50] really the only way to learn is to do something and be [01:08:55] willing to mess it up.

Prav Solanki: You will make a ton of mistakes, but it’s just it [01:09:00] is the way it is. Do you know what I mean? That’s business. That’s whether it’s practice ownership or software [01:09:05] or whatever. Yeah. Britney and Kevin, this brings me towards the end [01:09:10] of the podcast and we have some we have some questions that we ask all of our guests. [01:09:15] Um, and one of them is that, um, imagine it was your last [01:09:20] day on the planet. Kevin. Yeah. Um, and you were surrounded by your [01:09:25] loved ones, and, um, you had to leave them with three pieces [01:09:30] of wisdom. What would they be?

Kevin Shannon: Three pieces of wisdom.

Prav Solanki: Three [01:09:35] pieces of wisdom that you didn’t put out into the world. What would they be based on your own life [01:09:40] experiences?

Kevin Shannon: And. You have to have the courage [01:09:45] just to do things, especially the things that really scary. You’ve just got [01:09:50] to do them because that’s where most the most growth comes from. That’s where most of my youth has come from, when [01:09:55] I’ve been really scared and I’ve just gone and done it.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Um.

Kevin Shannon: That. [01:10:00] Uh, it’s really important [01:10:05] is to be trying to just be as honest as you can in life. And but, I [01:10:10] mean, it’s like having that vulnerability with people is just really [01:10:15] important. So, so that you can connect with people because if you can’t connect with people, that’s [01:10:20] why you have problems. I think that’s the biggest thing I’ve learned about what we’ve been talking about there with these other jobs that [01:10:25] just are never, ever really connected with anybody. And. [01:10:30] And just. Just enjoy it, isn’t it really? Just try [01:10:35] and enjoy. Just try and enjoy it. Because. If you’re [01:10:40] not enjoying it. It’s not really, it’s not really much point. And if you’re not enjoying [01:10:45] it, just. Do something else. Really change it. Make a change [01:10:50] because you’ll be all right. I think that’s a thing. You’ll be okay. That’ll be my final one. [01:10:55] Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Good. Good. Can you go back to those moments of where [01:11:00] nothing really mattered? You didn’t have a pot to piss in, but you were having loads of fun climbing trees. [01:11:05] Yeah.

Kevin Shannon: Yeah, that’s that’s that’s that’s the aim of this. Yeah, [01:11:10] but build a big treehouse.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Brilliant, brilliant. Kevin. Actually, [01:11:15] I’ve got one more question. Payman would shoot me for this. Ask this question. Um, which is [01:11:20] fantasy dinner party. Three people, dead or alive. Who [01:11:25] would they be? Three guests.

Kevin Shannon: Julius Caesar. Napoleon [01:11:30] Bonaparte.

Prav Solanki: And Fatima and. [01:11:35]

Speaker4: Mm. Right?

Kevin Shannon: Probably Steve Jobs. [01:11:40] Good, good, good.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant. [01:11:45] Kevin, thanks so much for your time today. Um. It’s been it’s been really cool [01:11:50] speaking to you. And, um, you know, just learning about your journey. [01:11:55] Um, not many people have the courage to just hang up that drill and move on and pursue [01:12:00] their dream of passion. And, uh, I really do hope digital TCO does [01:12:05] very quickly like to sit down with you this time next year and talk about your thousand raving fans [01:12:10] and where, where it’s got to. But but I think it’s really cool that you’ve followed [01:12:15] your passion, taken those leaps and, um, and shared that story with us today.

Kevin Shannon: Well, [01:12:20] thank you so much. I really, really appreciate it. I’ve really enjoyed the conversation we’ve had this morning. It’s been [01:12:25] a good it’s been a good morning. So thank you so much.

[VOICE]: This is Dental [01:12:30] Leaders the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [01:12:35] leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. [01:12:40] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for [01:12:45] listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge [01:12:50] thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and [01:12:55] what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value [01:13:00] out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend [01:13:05] who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t [01:13:10] forget our six star rating.