Rory Boyd shares his journey to being a specialist prosthodontist and owner of Dublin’s Belfield Clinic. 

Rory discusses the value of work-life balance, adopting new tech, and growing and managing his referral-based practice. 

Rory also discusses his involvement with the Irish Dental Association and his efforts to advocate for the profession. 



In This Episode

00:02:50 – Backstory

00:11:30 – Choosing dentistry

00:17:00 – SPOcast Show Notesutside interests

00:21:20 – Postgraduate training

00:43:50 – Specialists Vs general practitioners

00:46:50 – Simplicity and education

00:50:35 – New technologies

00:57:15 – Irish Dental Association

01:04:45 – Blackbox thinking

01:11:40 – Advances in dentistry 

01:27:55 – From research to adoption 

01:31:30 – Belfield Clinic

01:43:10 –  Fee setting

01:48:50 – Aha! moments

01:54:35 – The IDA and lobbying

01:58:25 – Fantasy dinner party

02:00:05 – Last days and legacy


About Rory Boyd

Rory Boyd is a specialist prosthodontist and owner of the Belfield Clinic specialist practice in Dublin, ROI. In 2019 Dr Boyd became the President of the Irish Dental Association Metropolitan branch and currently sits on the Irish Dental Association committee.

Rory Boyd: 100% basics and knowing your own limits and just doing the basics right. And again, [00:00:05] it comes back to for me, it’s assessment and planning. You know, cutting [00:00:10] a crown or executing a veneer or doing a good composite bond up [00:00:15] or posting core crowns and over there fading them out. But you know, if you can assess properly [00:00:20] and pick the case and pick the easy one, pick the best way to do it. Executing the treatment is easy. Picking [00:00:25] the right time to do it is the tricky bit and that’s the basics. It’s understanding good diagnosis, [00:00:30] good planning. And then once you have your problem list, I don’t start any treatment. Won’t [00:00:35] touch the patient with any burr until you have your list of treatments that you you know I’m going tip tip [00:00:40] tip I just got my it’s like cooking and I like I make my recipe and I write [00:00:45] out the recipe before I start. And it’s just go through one, two, three. And that is just pure assessment [00:00:50] and planning. But if you do not have that, you don’t have the vehicle to get to [00:00:55] success. You can’t go through a treatment without having it absolutely planned to the nth [00:01:00] degree beforehand. And and you know, don’t get me wrong, some stuff may change along the, the treatment. [00:01:05] You know, some of our patients are three, five years long. Um, some stuff changes. Ortho [00:01:10] can’t achieve what you thought they could or, you know, think teeth fail in the interim things change. [00:01:15] But but it’s assessment and planning and and that is the basics.

[VOICE]: This [00:01:20] is Dental Leaders. The [00:01:25] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [00:01:30] in dentistry. Your hosts [00:01:35] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:01:40] gives me great pleasure to welcome Doctor Rory Boyd onto the podcast. Rory [00:01:45] is a specialist Prosthodontist co-owner of the [00:01:50] famous Belfield Clinic in Dublin, a multidisciplinary referral [00:01:55] centre. I met Rory at the Ida event in Killarney, [00:02:00] where he was the president of the Irish Dental Association as [00:02:05] well. And um, what the youngest did you tell me you were the youngest? [00:02:10] I think it’s.

Rory Boyd: Fair to say.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, a bit young for that joke.

Rory Boyd: Got that accolade as well. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Lovely [00:02:15] to have you on the pod, buddy. Thanks for doing this. No. Pleasure to be.

Rory Boyd: Here. Thanks for asking me.

Payman Langroudi: So, [00:02:20] Rory, when we came over, um, we came over with my niece, ma’am, over [00:02:25] to the conference. It was one of the friendliest conferences I’ve been to. I would actually [00:02:30] suggest lots of people go go to that one as a weekend away, because everyone is so lovely. And [00:02:35] then, you know, the Irish know how to drink. And we drank into the early hours. And then [00:02:40] Rory, I caught the next day going for a run first thing. [00:02:45] And I just thought, what a successful human man.

Rory Boyd: I [00:02:50] think they’re running it anyway.

Payman Langroudi: Have you always been.

Payman Langroudi: Like a [00:02:55] high achiever, buddy?

Rory Boyd: I wouldn’t say high achiever, but yeah, I’ve always enjoyed, I [00:03:00] suppose, working my working hard at it, at things. Um, and [00:03:05] I guess if we’re talking about dental careers, my dental career really started in school. Um, most people talk about [00:03:10] our university or college, but I think with regards to high achievement, one of my best A-level subjects was [00:03:15] actually technology and design. And everyone talks about, uh, how sciences or [00:03:20] biology or chemistry is probably most important for dentistry. I actually think for for mine, especially as a prosthodontist, [00:03:25] my technology and design A-level was probably my most important.

Payman Langroudi: So interesting, so [00:03:30] interesting. Dipesh says exactly the same thing. Yeah, he did, he did the same. And he says that’s the thing [00:03:35] that’s made him the composite guy that he.

Rory Boyd: Yeah. I remember sitting in labs in third year undergraduate [00:03:40] and we were doing I think we’d come to the Crown and Bridge section. And when we were talking [00:03:45] and they were talking about, you know, the CAD cam aspect and talking about like when [00:03:50] I was 16, um, at Campbell College in Belfast, we were using the same we were using a [00:03:55] CAD design software called Pro Desktop, which was a kind of a dumbed down version of Pro Engineer, [00:04:00] which was kind of the CAD engineering CAD system at the time. And actually, if you look at actual [00:04:05] Cod or Dental designer or whatever design software you want, you want to use, they’re all based on the [00:04:10] same model, which was actually the same thing I was using 20 years ago in my GCSEs. And, you [00:04:15] know, if you look at the systems that we that we learned at school with regard to vacuum forming, CAD, [00:04:20] cam milling, we called it, we only had a 2D milling. So it was writing at the time. But [00:04:25] actually, yeah, I mean from that was one of my favourite subjects you talk about, you [00:04:30] know, have you always been successful. That was that was probably when I was most successful in my A-levels. Uh, and [00:04:35] it’s corresponding. It’s corresponded well to my, to my career, but I think I haven’t.

Payman Langroudi: So you grew up in [00:04:40] Belfast?

Rory Boyd: I’m from Belfast, and I suppose I moved to Dublin for college [00:04:45] and I’ve had some brief spells away from here, but I’ve been in Dublin for the guts of 18 years and, [00:04:50] you know, again, coming back to your your question [00:04:55] around, you know, high achievement. I think my background in sport has probably been my second biggest. Influence [00:05:00] in my career. Um, and I think never played to any [00:05:05] extreme levels or anything like that, but played a lot of rugby growing up in the team environment there. And I [00:05:10] think that the kind of skills that you learned and the team sport environment, whether it be at school or college [00:05:15] or in clubs, I think that transfers hugely to how we work as Dental [00:05:20] team and from, you know, moving through college and then into into practice that, [00:05:25] you know, that team, the ability to work within a team and know your know and understand your role [00:05:30] both as an individual but also as a part of a bigger machine. I think that that’s another area [00:05:35] from, you know, from outside of the career. So whether it be school, whether it be sport, those things are all influences [00:05:40] to your career, more so than sometimes what you learn at college or courses. You do, [00:05:45] you know.

Payman Langroudi: So I mean, I’m going to ask you might resent the fact that [00:05:50] any time you say you’re from Belfast, someone brings up the troubles. Do you know?

Rory Boyd: Look, the troubles [00:05:55] is part of our history. Um, it’s part of part of our fabric. It’s part of how we’re made up, you know? And I’m [00:06:00] a I suppose I’m a Protestant from Belfast that’s been living in Dublin for 18 years. [00:06:05] Um, that has no like I have no major. I suppose at home we’d say, you [00:06:10] know, political opinion, I guess. But the troubles are something. When you’re from [00:06:15] Belfast, it’s just part of your makeup. You don’t really know that it’s that different at the time. And everyone kind of, [00:06:20] you know. Yeah, people who you meet always ask you, oh, how was it? You’re like, well, I actually don’t [00:06:25] know any different. So and we were lucky enough that the guy I left school in [00:06:30] 2000.

Payman Langroudi: The too young.

Rory Boyd: To read and I left school in 2006. So if we look [00:06:35] at the peace process, which kind of probably 99 in my formative years, we [00:06:40] lived in peace and and we were we were the lucky. We were the first generation that were lucky enough [00:06:45] in Belfast to. There were small things that would have affected your life, but not very much. Um, and [00:06:50] I don’t think, you know, look, the troubles are something that we need to look back [00:06:55] on and understand that it carved, you know, carved out what Northern Ireland is. And [00:07:00] you know, how things have changed since it. But as a population, [00:07:05] hopefully, you know, you’ve got to look at the positives and hopefully it’s made us stronger and hopefully, you know, we can continue the same [00:07:10] path that we’ve been taking for the last whatever since, you know, whatever it is, 25 [00:07:15] years. So yeah, look, I’ve been living in Dublin for 18 years and [00:07:20] it does. It does thankfully doesn’t come up too often. But um, and it’s interesting, I’m also part of a rugby [00:07:25] background. You know, I’ve played rugby, I played, you know, rugby at school, played rugby [00:07:30] for in clubs in Belfast, played rugby in New Zealand. Uh came back played rugby in Dublin. And [00:07:35] I think rugby’s probably an amazing sport because it obviously transcended the Northern Ireland Southern [00:07:40] Ireland issues.

Rory Boyd: And we you know we’ve, we’ve ever you know, we’ve always only ever had an Irish rugby team. We [00:07:45] don’t have a Northern Irish rugby team. Um, so you grew up if you lived within the rugby, you [00:07:50] know, term in an all Ireland within that sport. And it doesn’t [00:07:55] really matter what country you go to having played it abroad as well. [00:08:00] You know rugby, rugby’s one of those sports that transcends boundaries. And you know there’s an ethos [00:08:05] to the sport that is like everyone comes up with their, you know, what is it, hooligans [00:08:10] game played by gentlemen. Um, but it is. And rugby is one of those [00:08:15] sports that transcends that. And I think in Ireland especially, you know, you can see you can see that within the rugby [00:08:20] family here. My father has been the chairman of the rugby club in Dublin, living [00:08:25] in Belfast for the last 12 years. Um, and I’m still involved and that’s 20 [00:08:30] cuts the university, Trinity College and I’m still involved with the rugby club there. So yeah, I think, I think, [00:08:35] you know, growing up in Belfast, being, you know, being part of the rugby family there also gives you [00:08:40] a potentially a slightly wider look on things.

Rory Boyd: But look, there’s no I’m not getting around [00:08:45] the fact that Belfast has had some significant issues, whether whatever side of the fence [00:08:50] that you live on and, you know, I’m not trying to belittle them, they’re certainly very important. But [00:08:55] I think over the last 25 years we’ve had huge, huge leaps [00:09:00] forward. And I’m an example of that. I mean, I in fact, so much so even when I went to college [00:09:05] in Dublin, my fees were paid for by the Northern Irish Education [00:09:10] Board for cross-community, um, reasons. So the effectively the [00:09:15] Belfast Education and Library Board paid your fees only for undergrad now post grad certainly certainly [00:09:20] you had to pay for yourself but uh but you know so there were some positives [00:09:25] to it as well. And we you know I think look, I’m a I’m an optimistic person. I look back [00:09:30] probably a rose tinted glasses and say that it didn’t affect me very much. And, you know, there still are problems [00:09:35] there. And and there always will always will be. Certainly in my, in my lifetime I think, [00:09:40] um, but thankfully we’re, we’re moving forward and kind of hopefully [00:09:45] learning to live with those issues, um, and keep them, um, where [00:09:50] they’re peaceful.

Payman Langroudi: And what do.

Payman Langroudi: You feel Irish as in the [00:09:55] island of Ireland. That’s an interesting one.

Payman Langroudi: What do you feel?

Rory Boyd: So. And everyone. Irish, Northern [00:10:00] Irish. So if I’m on holiday and somebody asks me where I’m from, I say Ireland just because it’s easier. Uh, [00:10:05] so it doesn’t open up a strange conversation. If I get into it, I [00:10:10] would say I’m Northern Irish. I’m from the country of Northern Ireland. That is my nationality. [00:10:15] I can and have applied for the Irish passport. So [00:10:20] I do carry both passports, but that’s mainly because of Brexit, so I don’t have to stand the queues. Um, [00:10:25] the if you’re flying within Europe. But yeah I’m Northern Irish, northern. It’s the same some [00:10:30] someone said you know, it’s the same as Scotland. You know the Scottish people say they’re [00:10:35] British or do they say they’re Scottish and I. Yeah. So Scottish, I’m Northern Irish, I’m [00:10:40] from the island of Ireland. Um, and if somebody abroad [00:10:45] asks me, I just say Ireland because it’s easier. And I live in Dublin, so I don’t have to explain that. So yeah, [00:10:50] I suppose I don’t have a huge look. I enjoy being Irish. I enjoy Irish [00:10:55] traditions and and heritage. I enjoy traditional music here. I enjoy [00:11:00] our traditional national drink of Guinness here. But yeah, I think if I came down to it, I’m Northern Irish, [00:11:05] that’s my home. That’s where I was brought up and that’s that’s still home. Um, [00:11:10] even though I may not, uh, may not live, live there again, but we’ll see. But, [00:11:15] um, no, certainly I would say I’m Northern Irish, but I’m from the island of Ireland, just to be to [00:11:20] be clear, but no. And I like Dublin’s home now for me, like, my parents still live in Belfast, [00:11:25] but I think Dublin’s home for me for the foreseeable future.

Payman Langroudi: And so tell me about [00:11:30] dentistry. Why dentistry? Is your dad dentist? Anyone? Anyone in your family?

Payman Langroudi: Dentists? Good question.

Rory Boyd: I actually [00:11:35] wanted the architecture. Uh, so my brother’s a dentist. We [00:11:40] we don’t know. My dad’s not a dentist. My dad worked for one of the banks in Belfast, and my mum [00:11:45] is a special education teacher. She, interestingly enough, actually [00:11:50] one of the reasons I probably ended up so I was diagnosed with dyslexia when I was, uh, [00:11:55] just before about 6 or 7. And my mum at the time was a PE teacher. Um, [00:12:00] and she decided that when I was diagnosed with dyslexia to, to to go [00:12:05] heavy into dyslexia and kind of move out of PE, she actually dislocated her shoulder at the time as well. [00:12:10] So I think she needed a change. And um, she got big into that, which probably [00:12:15] I probably don’t appreciate enough how much that helped me along the way actually, [00:12:20] because because she got big into it. Then I got a lot of additional help at home. Don’t get me wrong, English [00:12:25] or any language wasn’t in my A-level choice, but but you know, that was a huge help [00:12:30] growing up. And then I think initially I wanted to be a chef because I really enjoyed cooking. [00:12:35] And then I really enjoyed technical, technical drawing from my [00:12:40] kind of technology and design subjects. So I kind of wanted do architecture, and then I took the head staggers when I got to it [00:12:45] because I when I got to A-levels and then my brother had applied for dentistry and [00:12:50] he had gone travelling for a year beforehand. So I wanted to go travelling, but my parents said I wasn’t allowed [00:12:55] to go travelling for a year unless I had a university place to come back to in case I never came back.

Rory Boyd: So [00:13:00] then I applied to to Dublin and I didn’t really know what I wanted to do. [00:13:05] I didn’t have dentistry now because I was basically the younger brother trying to copy his older brother. And I think [00:13:10] if I remember correctly, I put on physio. It didn’t. Yeah, I think physio [00:13:15] and pharmacy maybe. And I don’t know why I put pharmacy. That would have been a nightmare for me. But I really was just [00:13:20] shotgun approach to applying to university and I didn’t have, I didn’t have chemistry. So when [00:13:25] we applied from the north to the south, it doesn’t matter on the grade, it just matters on the on the points you get. Um, so [00:13:30] when I looked at dentistry, which was the kind of at that stage was the number one, and probably again, [00:13:35] just copying my brother, I couldn’t apply to the UK. There were no I had too much science for [00:13:40] the pre dent courses, the six year programmes, and I hadn’t enough science because [00:13:45] I hadn’t, I had done biology and physics, but I hadn’t done chemistry for the, for the, for the five year programme. So I couldn’t [00:13:50] actually apply to the UK, which is actually where I wanted to go because all my friends were going there from Belfast. So I ended up applying [00:13:55] to university not knowing what I wanted to do, and only applied to the university that I didn’t really want to go [00:14:00] to at the time. So um, but then I got in and [00:14:05] I actually, I took the year, I deferred it for a year, took the year I went travelling and a brilliant time [00:14:10] and I came back.

Payman Langroudi: Where’d you go? Where’d you go?

Rory Boyd: I did your your standard gap route. Uh, whatever it [00:14:15] was Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Malaysia, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Fiji, Hawaii, California, [00:14:20] Arizona, Nevada, New York. Um.

Payman Langroudi: It was a big trip. [00:14:25]

Rory Boyd: Yeah, me and my best friend from school. So I came back, started dentistry. [00:14:30] And just from the word go was like a duck to water. Loved it. And [00:14:35] I think, you know, again, when you talk about high achievement or, you know, high performance or [00:14:40] those I think the number one, the high achievement of performance is enjoy it. And if [00:14:45] you enjoy it then then it’s game on. And and it doesn’t seem like a chore. Studying isn’t [00:14:50] as difficult. It always is, but isn’t as difficult. So yeah. [00:14:55]

Payman Langroudi: But you tell yourself to enjoy it. I mean, I’m sure there’s, there’s bits of [00:15:00] the job in the Ida that are, you know, difficult. I remember you running off to the media interviews [00:15:05] and all that. Um, do you tell yourself to enjoy things and then find find [00:15:10] the enjoyment in them? Yeah.

Rory Boyd: Yeah, potentially. And I think, yeah, [00:15:15] don’t get me wrong, you know, everyone, I’m not going to sit here and say that, you know, I still work five days a week. [00:15:20] I work and I’ve got a lot going on outside of my, my, my practice, um, job as well [00:15:25] with Irish Dental Association and other bits and pieces for different education, [00:15:30] um, reasons. And I still teach in the dental school and yeah, I’m busy, but yeah, [00:15:35] I think there might be some of it that you kind of go, you know, I’m not going to sit here and say that I, you know, every [00:15:40] minute of every day anything to do with dentistry is, is a is a is a love and a passion. And there [00:15:45] are certain aspects of it I don’t love, I don’t love admin, I don’t love the practice [00:15:50] management stuff. I don’t love HR, I don’t love, you know, there’s definitely some aspects [00:15:55] to it that that are a chore. But I think the number one still has to be I look, I’m [00:16:00] a clinician, I love treating patients and I love, I love I’m a prosthodontist, I [00:16:05] live for fit day. You know, that’s if you know, you have a big fit day coming up that week and, [00:16:10] you know, maybe, I don’t know, ten, 15, 20 units, whatever it may be for large, [00:16:15] you know, anterior work, you know, that’s what that’s what makes you tick. That’s [00:16:20] the that’s the buzz you fit the work, the patients and tears and happiness. Hopefully not sadness. [00:16:25] And and they’re the day. They’re the days I do it for. I really enjoy [00:16:30] teaching, um, because I have a real respect for educators. It’s [00:16:35] not just because you’ve you’ve got some accolades in your own personal academic achievement [00:16:40] does not make you an educator or a teacher. So that’s an area that I, that I really enjoy and [00:16:45] I enjoy trying to get better at. Um, and I’ve always committed to, [00:16:50] to teaching.

Payman Langroudi: At what point did you decide you want to be a specialist? Were you even in undergrad [00:16:55] thinking that or was it after?

Rory Boyd: No, I knew from the word go. The first. [00:17:00] And I was our third year, uh, undergraduate when we were doing our laboratories in [00:17:05] Cronin Bridge and Dancers. And that was the point. I knew and I [00:17:10] knew very, very, very quickly at that because they were the techniques that I enjoyed. I enjoyed [00:17:15] making stuff. And the same reason why I think I have a passion for cooking. I have a passion for, you know, [00:17:20] maybe not a passion for DIY, but I enjoy making stuff for problem solving and fixing things. And [00:17:25] I think process just really lent itself to me for that. And, you know, from there, [00:17:30] I kind of made it clear to everyone around me that prosthodontics is where I was trying [00:17:35] to go, and everything I did was based around owning that goal. Like the one piece of advice [00:17:40] I also give to younger dentists, and you get a lot of a lot of guys and final [00:17:45] year coming up and asking, oh, what should I do? Should what should I specialise in? Like, that’s not the question. [00:17:50] It’s what do I enjoy doing? Because especially those who do well in [00:17:55] exams or, you know, that kind of they’re coming top of their class and they see being a specialist [00:18:00] as the pinnacle of success, which I don’t think a specialist is having the privilege of being a specialist, having [00:18:05] the privilege to know nothing about everything else, and just having to do that little bit all day, every day. And [00:18:10] yes, okay, you have to be half decent at that. But I don’t see being a specialist [00:18:15] as, as above the general practitioner, I see it alongside and we’re we’re a lateral [00:18:20] referral. It’s not a hierarchical scheme that if you to be successful in dentistry you have to [00:18:25] be a specialist. That is not that is not the case. And anyone who does think that has too big an ego. [00:18:30]

Payman Langroudi: But when you tell.

Payman Langroudi: When you tell the youngster to to figure out what they enjoy.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:18:35]

Rory Boyd: And I do think, I.

Payman Langroudi: Do think.

Payman Langroudi: No position there, no position there. No. They’re in no position to figure [00:18:40] out what like if I’ve done if I’ve done only ten root canals, how do [00:18:45] I know whether I want to be an artist. And I find that my advice is opposite. [00:18:50] My advice is get good at something and you will enjoy that thing. Yeah, rather than figure [00:18:55] out what you enjoy.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Question.

Payman Langroudi: Because a lot of the a lot of them really stumble on that question all the time.

Rory Boyd: And it takes time. [00:19:00] I was very lucky that that that I knew my focus early on. But [00:19:05] I don’t think that’s the best route for everybody. I did, I did [00:19:10] I started a specialist program two years after graduation, and at that time I was the youngest specialist [00:19:15] on the program in Ireland. There has been some behind who’ve done it in the same timeline. I [00:19:20] don’t think that’s the best way to do it for everyone. Um, and having a broader experience [00:19:25] and practice beforehand can often be far more beneficial than [00:19:30] jumping into a speciality early doors, because if you don’t like it, [00:19:35] you’re stuck. At least in general dentistry, there are there are still avenues and pathways [00:19:40] to go. But if you narrow yourself so to to tightly at the start [00:19:45] in the quest of you know what you think will be perceived success. If I [00:19:50] become a specialist, that’s that’s going to get you into trouble because you’re going to end up doing a job you don’t enjoy. [00:19:55] So as you come back to what you said, enjoying what you do is, number one, you [00:20:00] know that that has to be your driver because success will follow when you enjoy it. [00:20:05] And that again, coming back to your question with high performance and and high achievement, [00:20:10] it it comes when you enjoy it. And the reason why I [00:20:15] was accepted onto the program earlier was because I’d made it very clear to the to the course [00:20:20] directors and things that this is this is what I enjoy, and that’s why I want to do the program, not not [00:20:25] for any other reason. And then, yeah, I was lucky enough to be to be accepted at the time. [00:20:30]

Payman Langroudi: But I’m interested. The reason I brought up the running thing is because I’m interested [00:20:35] in, in order to be to excel at Dental school or at anything in life. [00:20:40] Is there sacrifice? Of course there is, right. There is sacrifice. You all know that you’re [00:20:45] you’re sacrificing right now. Yeah. Spending this hour with me that you could be spending.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:20:50] know, with.

Payman Langroudi: No. But you know what I’m saying? This there’s sacrifice left right and centre. Now, [00:20:55] the question that that kind of intrigues me, right is that [00:21:00] is that sacrifice for some people at the cost of what? Yeah. So [00:21:05] the cost of the sacrifice. So when I say, oh, you turned up and you ran like, were [00:21:10] you the kind of Dental student who used to work your ass off and then party your ass off later on? Because there are [00:21:15] these individuals you meet in life who manage to pull that off. And I just [00:21:20] take my hat off to all of those types.

Rory Boyd: Yeah. I think if you if you knew me personally as [00:21:25] socially, you’d probably say, yeah, I think having a, having a good engine, having a good engine has [00:21:30] been, uh, has been, has been a term used before. Yeah. Look. Yeah. Look, I’ve, I [00:21:35] enjoy myself in all facets. Um, and. Yeah, but I think one of my biggest pieces [00:21:40] of advice. Never mind your partying and socialising. Yes, it’s definitely something that’s, that’s in [00:21:45] my repertoire. But I think having hobbies and interests outside of [00:21:50] dentistry is massively important. I think. Look, dentistry takes over a solid college, you [00:21:55] know, it’s all it’s everything you eat, breathe, sleep, sleep, drink. You know, I tried [00:22:00] to play rugby at college and it just didn’t fit with the timetable and injuries and [00:22:05] things. So I stopped playing serious rugby when I was in my second year. I still played some social Hospitals [00:22:10] Cup stuff, but still managed to fracture the base of my skull once, [00:22:15] shattered my eye socket. And third year oh my god, I’ve broken l5 c6 [00:22:20] like those. Just don’t. Those don’t comply with rugby. So rugby kind of for [00:22:25] any serious level of rugby stop for me and and kind of second year. But I do think what’s been [00:22:30] most important. So I obviously did a lot of college. I did my undergrad, I worked then as a kind of house [00:22:35] officer, which is like an nchd role, a hospital role for the year.

Rory Boyd: And then I worked [00:22:40] in practice in Belfast for a year, and I went back to my postgrad. So I was kind of in the dental hospital for [00:22:45] ten years, bar one in between. I spent a small bit of time at UCLA as [00:22:50] part of a postgrad and undergrad actually. But but otherwise I was in the dental hospital for the guts of ten years, I think [00:22:55] indirectly. So once I came out of dental school when I was 29, [00:23:00] I finished and I bought the practice. It [00:23:05] then practice takes over your life. Um, so that fills that void. But then [00:23:10] at some point there’s, there’s a, there’s kind of a realisation of this is it. [00:23:15] And you know, once you, you know, for me, I was lucky enough to buy a practice. So you knew you weren’t moving. [00:23:20] You’re the, you’re the you’re the only member of staff who isn’t at risk of leaving because it’s your house. [00:23:25] So there comes a point once that practice is up and running and kind of taking over and everything, you [00:23:30] kind of realise this is it. And because you go through college and you do first years, [00:23:35] you go through and you do your exams in second year and you get to fifth year and everything’s targeted, everything’s like there’s hurdles to [00:23:40] get over and you get over that and then you’re like, right, I want to do post-grad.

Rory Boyd: And then the targets, the post-grad. You get into that [00:23:45] and you’ve got three years of that, and then you’ve got, you know that and you’ve got your, your fellowships and your membership [00:23:50] exams or whatever. And once they’re done, then probably for specialists especially, I know there’s a lot more, [00:23:55] um, who don’t end up as practice owners, but specialist wise here still, the route would be that you would own your [00:24:00] business generally and that was the next target. Then you get that done, that’s up and running and then you’ve no more targets. Then. [00:24:05] Then what’s that’s it. And there’s this point in your career which happens earlier on early on [00:24:10] going right. Well what what am I to do next or what’s the and for me [00:24:15] look obviously building building and growing the practice is one, education is two. But enjoying yourself outside of dentistry [00:24:20] is three because you will burn out and you’ve just spent, whether it’s been undergrad and post grad, maybe you spent ten years [00:24:25] of your life committed to dentistry all in you look, you’re still going holidays and things, but but it’s all [00:24:30] in committed commitment. And I think it’s super important that we have time for travel [00:24:35] or for cooking, or for rugby, or for socialising or for partying, whenever that’s appropriate.

Rory Boyd: You [00:24:40] know that we that we have a full, you know, a full gamut of things that we enjoy [00:24:45] because the dentistry is a tough job. Um, it’s a physical job. It’s, [00:24:50] you know, it’s it’s patient facing 90% of the time. There’s no you know, you look [00:24:55] at our colleagues who work in offices, they’re meeting clients three times a week, you know, and otherwise they’re [00:25:00] in the office, you know, having 20 minutes to the coffee, the coffee machine with somebody and chit chat. And so [00:25:05] so we’re full on 9 to 5 patient facing. And that that is that is a [00:25:10] that’s a tough slog. And if that’s all you have in your in your enjoyment category that that can get [00:25:15] tough. So I think it’s really important whether look I obviously like to exercise in all [00:25:20] different areas. And as we get older, you generally hit that middle aged man who starts running marathons and doing triathlons. [00:25:25] I’m there. Um, but but I think it’s super important to have to [00:25:30] have serious enjoyment outside of dentistry as well. Look, I love dentistry more than anyone else in the planet. But [00:25:35] you have to have other aspects of your life that you enjoy that [00:25:40] you set time apart for. And dentistry we’re lucky enough for. Dentistry is a great job that you can you can take [00:25:45] time off.

Rory Boyd: You can, you can, you can travel. You can, you can do super interesting things. And [00:25:50] look, I think it’s I think it’s super important that we bring that into, we bring that into, into our [00:25:55] life. But you know, because dentistry does take can take over. And I think it’s really important that we that we remember [00:26:00] that and remind ourselves at times because there are times you can start chasing the waiting list, you can start working all [00:26:05] the hours in the day, and you can start to feel that kind of sense of, oh, there’s burnout. I [00:26:10] can feel it. You know? It’s like that’s that’s another, another six months of that. You can okay. You [00:26:15] can, you can get up, put yourself under pressure that you don’t need to. So it’s really important we recognise that and it’s absolutely [00:26:20] normal and like I yeah exercise would be my my my I exercise cooking [00:26:25] and travel would be my three. But but yeah like it’s super important that we recognise that especially for you [00:26:30] know I love teaching I love kind of mentorship of younger dentists. I love I love [00:26:35] seeing people that you have an influence on influencing blossom. And I [00:26:40] think that’s one of my major points is, is trying to make sure that you have interests outside of [00:26:45] outside of practice.

Payman Langroudi: So take me through the course [00:26:50] itself. The postgrad course was, I mean, a lot of people see doing a masters [00:26:55] as, as kind of the same whatever, wherever it is. And also [00:27:00] two different students on the same masters get completely different things out of it depending [00:27:05] on, you know, what they do and you spend that time at UCLA. I spent some time at UCSF [00:27:10] and the the mindset was very different out there. I found [00:27:15] amongst the post-grads, maybe because they were paying so much money or whatever it was, but not [00:27:20] I mean, they were getting into it younger than than here, earlier than here. I [00:27:25] from my experience, um, give me your reflections on, on, on on all of that sort of [00:27:30] specialising as a fixed price guy as a, as a pros guy. Um, the [00:27:35] course where to go. How much is going to cost you for a young guy thinking of specialising break [00:27:40] it down.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Rory Boyd: It’s probably changed a little bit since I, I’m seven years out now. [00:27:45] But look, when I, when I first talked about wanting to do it and seriously talking about wanting [00:27:50] to do pros and kind of my final year of college and I what I would do, my best piece of advice [00:27:55] is get a mentor, find someone that you respect, appreciate what they do [00:28:00] have a relationship with, and and ask them, um, and ask them to guide you. And [00:28:05] if they can’t find out who can. Because for me, I there were a couple of, [00:28:10] um, you know, professional Colonel Mike Doctor Sullivan. At the time, they were kind of my [00:28:15] my mentors at the undergraduate level. I also had a couple of other [00:28:20] kind of younger prosthodontists that I really looked up to and knew very well socially. So it was easy for me because I had that [00:28:25] kind of natural communication line with mentors, which is which is hard because [00:28:30] especially if you’re a quieter, less I mean, I call it confidence, [00:28:35] but some people call it cockiness. Uh, if you’re less confidence, then it can be [00:28:40] difficult to approach somebody and ask them that within college. But that was for me. So I asked, [00:28:45] you know, what should I do? And I wanted to go to the States because going to the States was the thing every, you know, American [00:28:50] trained prosthodontist that’s, you know, at the time in Ireland, our Prosthodontic course has only [00:28:55] really been running well, it’s been running 23 years now, but at that time 20, 15 years old. [00:29:00]

Rory Boyd: So all the senior prosthodontist that you knew were all American trained, therefore American trained had to be the [00:29:05] thing that the way to go. So. But, but, but what I didn’t realise at the time was every single [00:29:10] course is completely different. The makeups different, what they actually study is different. The how they study [00:29:15] it is completely different. You know, for example, if I remember correctly, in my [00:29:20] intake, we place some implants on the, on the, on the POS program. But it was a handful, just [00:29:25] that you knew what you were basically asking for when you were referring it. But not enough. Not enough for you to [00:29:30] go ahead and place them. But it would be enough for you to go, right? Okay, maybe I want to add that to my repertoire when I get out, maybe go. And do [00:29:35] you know another program in surgery? But we placement, I don’t know, 5 [00:29:40] or 6 fixtures or something in our program. Then you go over the same [00:29:45] year group, you go to Chicago and they’re placing 100 fixtures a year in the program. Right. [00:29:50] So I was like, why didn’t she do the prosthodontics? But then removable [00:29:55] partial dentures, they did none. Right. So so every the courses are not heterogeneous [00:30:00] or homogeneous.

Rory Boyd: They’re they’re all very different. So, so [00:30:05] I so the first piece of advice was go and research the programs, get the syllabus and the curriculum. But the other problem [00:30:10] is when you’re qualifying fifth year, you read the syllabus. You don’t really know that either. You know, because you kind of go, well, what? [00:30:15] How much how much removable work is or how much. So you don’t you really need mentorship [00:30:20] or somebody you trust to go through that with you. So I had I looked at the States and that was kind [00:30:25] of where I was going to go. And then I threw an application into Dublin. Um, it opened [00:30:30] earlier, so I was going to apply to both. But really, in my heart of hearts, I wanted to go to the States and I and I [00:30:35] knew usually you needed about six years experience to get into Dublin, whereas obviously you’re right, in the States [00:30:40] they go straight from undergrad or, well, from, from from dental school they’ll call it. Yeah, their undergrad [00:30:45] before dental school. But they go straight from dental school, might do GPR or something, and then they’ll go into into the program. So they are [00:30:50] generally younger in their dental career than, than we would be in the UK or in Ireland. So [00:30:55] I didn’t think I’d get into Dublin because you needed six years, you know, anyone before me had had six years experience, not two. [00:31:00]

Rory Boyd: So then Dublin offered me a place and the whole American dream fell apart. Um, [00:31:05] so I was like, oh God. Right. Okay. You know, that’s brilliant. I get to study, [00:31:10] I get to stay at home night. There was part of me still wanted to go to the States and experience that. Um, my dad had been to [00:31:15] UCLA in the 70s. We’d spent a lot of time over there on summer holidays, you [00:31:20] know, meeting up with his pals. And and we have lots of friends that live in Los Angeles. So I kind of still [00:31:25] I still had that little itch that I wanted to scratch. Um, so that’s that’s [00:31:30] so that’s why I organised the externship and it was just basically the guts of a semester in my first [00:31:35] year. Um, I spent over there, but. So. Yeah. So the first thing I would, I would [00:31:40] when you’re, when you’re looking to apply is find out what they, what the [00:31:45] courses in the curriculums are, ask a mentor to go through those with you and then do everything [00:31:50] in your power, but find to find out what admissions criteria [00:31:55] they have, and then do everything in your power to, to go to, to meet those. And [00:32:00] the other thing I would also suggest is meet the universities, go over there, meet the, meet the staff, because [00:32:05] there aren’t going to be that many people applying.

Rory Boyd: I mean, if you look at, say Dublin here, we’ve, we’ve, we take [00:32:10] we prosthodontics, we take two a year. So if you’ve come over and met [00:32:15] the course director for a meeting and asked for a tour of the hospital, you’re showing that you want to go [00:32:20] when they’re sitting down in front of, you know, whatever shortlisting that they’re doing that you’re obviously going to get shortlisted [00:32:25] because they know they’ve got a face to the name on the CV or the or the application form. So that would be [00:32:30] from an admissions point of view, probably the best piece of advice I could give from that. So find a mentor, [00:32:35] find the right school, find the right curriculum, find out what they want and do absolutely everything [00:32:40] and more and meet them. Meeting them, I think, is, you know, even if you’re a [00:32:45] little bit short in the CV, they’re showing the effort to go over and meet them or um, and it’s [00:32:50] like, I remember being on the program in Dublin, and what they would do [00:32:55] is they would actually send the prospective um, students and they would actually sit with [00:33:00] the, the other students and the other students, or the prospective student probably [00:33:05] thought that was, oh, just for us to get to know them, but actually, what? Then they come around and ask us who we liked and who would [00:33:10] we want on the course. And, you know, people on the course and the staff within the course have all of the power [00:33:15] to, you know, make the decisions.

Rory Boyd: And it’s such a tricky decision because it can be a life changer. [00:33:20] You know, if you get onto the program, you don’t could change the course of everything, you know. So it is it is a stressful time. [00:33:25] But the Dublin course is based on the Air Force Manual. It’s an Air Force based curriculum which you’ll [00:33:30] find in the States that’s, you know, a kind of a theme. We’re Air Force based [00:33:35] in design with regards to our program, first six months with the tech course. So you don’t treat it, don’t [00:33:40] don’t treat a patient for the first year. Um, you do six months of, of [00:33:45] lab tech and then you do basically. Well, whatever the second half of [00:33:50] the year is basically assessments and workshops. Um, that’s about it. So, [00:33:55] um, because look, at the end of the day, every [00:34:00] everyone can cut grinds and cut veneers and, and, you know, whatever. But it’s planning [00:34:05] the cases. And assessing the cases are the two that I think are specialist [00:34:10] prosthodontist. That’s your speciality. Your speciality is planning. Good assessment, good diagnosis, [00:34:15] good planning. That’s it. The rest of it’s just executing okay. It might be bigger treatment, but [00:34:20] if you’ve got the case well planned and assessed you can’t. You know it’s not going to go [00:34:25] too far wrong.

Payman Langroudi: How many years was was your course.

Rory Boyd: Uh, three. And a bit [00:34:30] full time. Full time. Yeah. And you know your.

Payman Langroudi: How did you [00:34:35] fund.

Payman Langroudi: It?

Rory Boyd: Tricky one. When I was doing it, I think the was [00:34:40] what was it. Was it 25 grand a year unpaid [00:34:45] in Dublin through tricky one I, I went we I was very lucky [00:34:50] um I went to every bank in Dublin. Not one would give us [00:34:55] any money as you one offered me €3,000, I think. And you’re looking at 75 [00:35:00] grand fees to start with. So that was a tricky one. But I’m very, very lucky because [00:35:05] my parents funded it. Um, I knew that it did [00:35:10] clean out most of their savings account. And I remember very specifically, I [00:35:15] remember specifically having the sit down at the kitchen table with my mum and dad. My dad [00:35:20] asked me how much it was and I said 75 grand over three years. Mum, I think fell off [00:35:25] the chair at the end of the table. But dad with a bunch of background in banking was [00:35:30] like, right, well, if something costs 75 grand, what’s the what’s the um what’s the [00:35:35] payout? You know, what’s the what’s the return on investment. What’s the what’s your salary going to be when you finish. [00:35:40] And I obviously had no idea. So I. I came up with a number. [00:35:45] Um, that was huge. He kind of looked at me and was like, okay, [00:35:50] we can do it. And I sort of inside was like, oh, Jesus. So anyway, when [00:35:55] Full Circle did the program and when I bought the practice, my dad was my age [00:36:00] and still is my financial director, and we had the end of year one directors [00:36:05] meeting to discuss how things had gone. And it was an emotional enough [00:36:10] moment when dad put the hand across the table and, and put his hand out and said, um, congratulations. [00:36:15] And I said, oh, what’s that for? And he said, do you remember sitting at the kitchen table and [00:36:20] you told me the number that you thought you’d make when you finish this program? And [00:36:25] I said, oh, yeah. And he’s like, well, well done. You did it. And he said, I knew you were bullshitting me, [00:36:30] but you did it. And it was a full circle moment. And you [00:36:35] know.

Payman Langroudi: How many years in was.

Payman Langroudi: That first year?

Rory Boyd: It was first year, yeah. We had a [00:36:40] bumper with a bumper start, but yeah. So so the finance thing is difficult. I was very lucky. Uh, my parents, [00:36:45] my parents funded it, but I also got funded research, which is like hen’s teeth. [00:36:50] So I had a piece of research on a night appliance [00:36:55] called the Smart splint, which measured bruxism. So it effectively covered my fee second [00:37:00] and third year. So it was just living costs and doubling rent, which, which was really needed needed [00:37:05] to be covered. But it’s extremely difficult. And those fees have only gone up. And that’s one of the reasons [00:37:10] why I think there’s a lot more people who spend a couple of years in practice saving up, um, because it is difficult. And unfortunately, [00:37:15] the banks aren’t, aren’t willing to, to lend to that sector, even though I think that’s [00:37:20] madness because, yeah, you know, you’re effectively hopefully a good bet if you’ve got into that program. [00:37:25]

Payman Langroudi: How long after you qualified from the program did you start or buy [00:37:30] the practice?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Rory Boyd: So, uh, spin off, um, [00:37:35] I had big plans to do because I think we discussed this, but because I was the youngest at the [00:37:40] time, I was the youngest qualifying post-grad here. I’ve kind of felt I should do [00:37:45] something weird and wonderful with with with my time. I had no wife, I had no kids, I had no [00:37:50] dependents, or I didn’t have a mortgage. I was, I was I remember [00:37:55] going in to get the funding for the practice and, uh, the [00:38:00] bank manager at the time asked me, did I have any, um, asset collateral? [00:38:05] And the only thing I could think of was my golf clubs and my watch. So at that stage, I didn’t have an [00:38:10] awful lot, so I was I planned to do this for a maverick. Um, I wanted to go to I said [00:38:15] it, most of it up at the time. I wanted to go to Europe and the States, and I was going to work a month [00:38:20] with each with different, you know, famous individuals or who I felt were famous in the prosthodontic [00:38:25] and implant world and just go for a year’s experience and kind of travel, um, [00:38:30] and learn some really cool dentistry along the way. Because I’d really enjoyed my time at UCLA, and I kind of felt, [00:38:35] you know, I’d learned a lot from that, um, just how different people work, how different [00:38:40] industries work in different countries and, and how, you know, there’s there’s not just one way to do [00:38:45] everything.

Rory Boyd: And in fact, the prosthodontics is probably 10 or 15. But. So I had that all kind of planned out. And then [00:38:50] one of my professors came to me and, and who had helped me organise this, um, doctor Jerry Cleary, [00:38:55] and he just sat me down and said, Rory, unfortunately, that’s not going to happen. Okay. [00:39:00] Uh, something happened. And he said, no, there is a very eminent [00:39:05] colleague that is is retiring. And he asked me, could I think of anyone [00:39:10] that was eligible or appropriate to take on his practice? And Doctor [00:39:15] Billy Davis was the, the the dentist that I took over from. And he was the second ever [00:39:20] board certified um prosthodontist in Europe and it was a lady in Norway was the first. Um, [00:39:25] so it was a long standing, you know, very famous practice in Ireland. And he [00:39:30] just said, look, these don’t come up very often. In fact, this, this, this particular practice would never [00:39:35] come. You know, this is a once in a career practice that that’ll be available to take on. So [00:39:40] I sort of like a rabbit in the headlights. And yes, I kind of, most of my career, you know, too [00:39:45] young to to understand really what you’re going through at the time.

Rory Boyd: So I kind of said, well, I don’t know how to [00:39:50] I wouldn’t know one where to start with, with, with managing a practice. [00:39:55] I mean, remember, I’d only worked in an NHS practice in West Belfast for [00:40:00] a year here, so I don’t have a lot of practice experience. And that was, you know, with all due respect. [00:40:05] And I love that year and it was brilliant practice, great fun. And Pierce Stinson, the principal, was was [00:40:10] a brilliant mentor. But in practice, ownership and, uh, you know, acquisition. [00:40:15] I certainly didn’t have a breadth of experience. So my professor [00:40:20] supervisor at the time, Gerry, just said, well, don’t worry about that. I’ll sort that out. All [00:40:25] right. Okay. So he said, just go for a meeting with Billy and, you know, [00:40:30] see what, see what the numbers are and if you what you feel and whatever. So I met with him and he’s, he’s [00:40:35] a, he’s a legend of a gentleman. Just, just just a really soft touch, soft approach [00:40:40] and beautiful human being. Met him. I was just like, yeah, this is it. This is, this is, this is going to this [00:40:45] is the practice for me. And we discussed numbers and I remember going, Gerry said, look, once you’ve had that [00:40:50] conversation, come and meet me.

Rory Boyd: We’ll have a glass of wine and let’s discuss it. So [00:40:55] we did that, discussed it. And you know, Gerry and Term basically said, look, when I was your age, [00:41:00] there was a dentist in Dublin called called Colin O’Sullivan, who basically did the same thing for him, [00:41:05] that Gerry came back from the States. He studied in Indiana, and he came back kind of fresh off the boat [00:41:10] and call him, kind of took him under the wing and said, right, you’re going to buy my practice and I’m going [00:41:15] to help you up, up the ladder. And with regards to costs and finance and and you’re going to pick somebody [00:41:20] at the end of your career. So Gerry said, then that’s what I’m doing now. So I’m going to help you out. I’m [00:41:25] going to get you on your feet. And you’re only promise. Well, he kind of give me two promises. One was that [00:41:30] I give everything to the Ida and got heavily involved in that, and two was that I did the same for for someone [00:41:35] that I felt appropriate at the end of my career to make sure I helped somebody to to [00:41:40] the line and practice and get somebody, you know, pull them up with help, mentorship and [00:41:45] some finance. Um, so yeah, it’s an incredible, incredible [00:41:50] way to get started. What a.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: Story that.

Payman Langroudi: Is, man. And yeah it’s.

Rory Boyd: Great. And [00:41:55] look, I don’t know how many times and how many stages that I’ve [00:42:00] said. Everything in my career is due to the mentors that I’ve had and Gerry being, you know, probably [00:42:05] the number one with regards to practice. But it’s those, it’s those and those are what I [00:42:10] call educators, you know, and look what Gerry did for me and got me a practice going is different. That’s brilliant. [00:42:15] And I’m really looking forward to being able to do that for someone else. But it’s those mentors [00:42:20] that surround you and you know, that mould you as a, as a clinician and. And, [00:42:25] you know, an academic and as an educator, those are those are the those are the educators. [00:42:30] Those are what I’m trying to live up to their who I have the most respect for. And, you know, you [00:42:35] see all these dentists or, you know, see all these centres all over Instagram and all over, you know, go to conferences [00:42:40] and they’re waxing, you know, I have grateful respect for them and they’re great clinicians. But it’s the guys that actually [00:42:45] shape younger dentists and actually give up their time. You know, you look at [00:42:50] the supervisors and the educators that are giving up their time because they do not get paid well, being one of them at [00:42:55] this point. You know, I teach in the dental school one afternoon a week. I think what I get for it probably covers my parking. [00:43:00]

Rory Boyd: Um, and that’s about it. Um, so I understand that. And those [00:43:05] guys have, you know, given up their time and their and their expertise because they, they feel a privilege [00:43:10] to have the expertise. And it’s even more of a privilege to be able to pass them on. And those [00:43:15] are the dentists that I have the most respect for is the educators, because [00:43:20] you can go out into practice and you can make all the money in the world. You can have the, you know, the, [00:43:25] the champagne life. And but to give up your time is [00:43:30] probably the most expensive thing. Um, but on the flip side, I also understand why [00:43:35] they do it. Because the kudos or the feeling you get when you see somebody over a three, four, six, [00:43:40] 12 month period and develop is why they do it, and it’s why I do it. And [00:43:45] they are the dentists that I have to just Uber respect for. And they’re the ones that, you [00:43:50] know, I’m trying to learn to get better at with regards to education and [00:43:55] understanding how to try and simplify, um, things because you forget, [00:44:00] I mean, when you when you first go back to teach and you’ve got fifth years, you think when you were in fifth year, you were, you [00:44:05] know, shooting bazookas, you were you were.

Payman Langroudi: You were you were.

Rory Boyd: You were nothing. You could no [00:44:10] tooth could not be saved. You know, everything was favourable and you could take on any film [00:44:15] or rehab and you thought you were. But actually, looking back now, you realise how inexperienced [00:44:20] I’ll put it, that you were at the time. And, and I, you know, I take a group of fifth years now and. Yes, [00:44:25] look, there’s there’s still lots of experience to go and you know, but God that’s you know, dental [00:44:30] school is the start, not the finish. But we forget where we were at when we [00:44:35] were in fifth year. Until you go back and teach them and you go, oh gosh, that’s where we’re at. And we’ve got a bit to go here. But when you see [00:44:40] them develop over however long you have that group for, that’s the that’s [00:44:45] the payment, that’s the excitement. That’s that’s the buzz for me. That’s the same as, you know, [00:44:50] for my rehab fit day. That’s why you do it. And for no other reason than [00:44:55] the satisfaction that you get out of passing on the knowledge that you had the privilege to get in the first place.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:45:00] know, also, education and educators come in all [00:45:05] shapes and sizes these days, right? Yeah. But but Jaz Gulati, I don’t know [00:45:10] if you’ve come across his podcast, right.

Rory Boyd: Yeah. Yeah, briefly I have we actually we asked him to speak at the [00:45:15] Ida last year. So yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: He’s I don’t know, he’s 7 or 8 years out of dental [00:45:20] school and I’d say he’s one of the top educators in the country. Yeah. Yeah. And [00:45:25] it’s a whole different form of education. It’s not it’s not you know, it’s a podcast. You [00:45:30] know, I’ve stopped practising 12 years ago and I still listen to his podcast [00:45:35] on snoring or something. Yeah. Because he just he just makes it interesting and kind of answers [00:45:40] the questions in your head.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Rory Boyd: And it’s the ability to mimic exactly the way he does it. It’s the ability [00:45:45] to make something so boring, so interesting at times. I mean, you think [00:45:50] of even I know I still get a buzz out of material science, but some stuff can get really heavy and and fairly [00:45:55] boring. And I also think, you know, if you look at the who I, on an international level, look [00:46:00] up to and have a really good relationship with, you know, to simplify things as Marcus Platz, if anybody doesn’t [00:46:05] follow Marcus Platz Instagram, he has the ability to make especially [00:46:10] generally fixed posts so simple and just makes, you know, 2 or 3 variations [00:46:15] of every single thing. Just simplify it, simplify, simplify. And that’s something I very much try and take into my [00:46:20] education or teaching or whatever, is to try and simplify [00:46:25] things, because at times you get every Tom, Dick and Harry is trying to make their own method their own way and [00:46:30] they’ll name it after, you know, this is the the Boyd method or whatever it may be. Right? But [00:46:35] the really good educators just simplify it down. They don’t make more more issues, more [00:46:40] confusion. They actually simplify it down and go, right. These are the these are the three best ways. And these are these are the [00:46:45] indications for each one done. Move on next one.

Rory Boyd: And I find that, you know, I find from an education point of [00:46:50] view is the ability to simplify. Yes. To make it exciting and enjoyable. Case number one. But to [00:46:55] simplify things down, especially in process, you know, there’s so many different [00:47:00] variations and methods and different birds and different concepts and different materials [00:47:05] and different cements and different, you know, and, you know, it’s it’s somebody [00:47:10] who’s, you know, Marcus Blass, I find it fascinating person because he’s to start with [00:47:15] extremely smart and a serious academic. You know, if you look at the papers he’s [00:47:20] published, the academia is where he came from. But the education. Asian. [00:47:25] The the educator then came second. And he’s right there in pen [00:47:30] and like the work. I don’t know how many hours because he is a brilliant surfer. He is brilliant [00:47:35] at drums and I don’t because he travels the world educating everyone else [00:47:40] outside of his own university. He also then has his own postgraduate and undergraduate systems. [00:47:45] And if you’ve ever been to the university, it’s one of the most incredible outfits. And how [00:47:50] he has the time, because if you follow on Instagram, he seems to be in a different country every week. [00:47:55] And when he comes, when he comes to your country and when you go and see him speak, [00:48:00] because I hope everyone gets the opportunity to. He has so much energy and makes you feel as if you’re the only [00:48:05] person in the room.

Rory Boyd: Every time he speaks and I find it, I find him. I find like we [00:48:10] we I find him really fascinating. I the pleasure to drive him from Dublin, Dublin to Galway. [00:48:15] We I picked him up and he went over and spoke for us, the Irish Dental Association, a number of years ago, [00:48:20] and I picked him up and he just got off the overnight flight from, from New York. And [00:48:25] I think I must it must be 9:00 in the morning. He’d been up all night. He jumped in my car and [00:48:30] we drove Dublin to Galway, probably two and a half, three hours, 2.5 hours. And [00:48:35] the radio didn’t go on once we just talked. We’d met once before in Chicago [00:48:40] at an event, and that’s why I’d asked him to come over. And we just talked industry the whole way to Galway, and we [00:48:45] kind of got to Galway and I was like, how’s your battery level? You, you, you’re tired. And he [00:48:50] and he said, no, no, I’m good, I’m good. I was like, well, do you want to go on to Connemara? Because I’m enjoying this conversation so much and [00:48:55] go and get more out of you here. So we then took off. I took him down to Connemara. We had lunch in Ballynahinch Castle, [00:49:00] Connemara.

Rory Boyd: For anyone who hasn’t been. It’s just like. Disneyland for people who like landscapes. [00:49:05] Um, and Marcus just put his phone and record set up in the front of the car and recorded [00:49:10] the whole drive down through up to Ballynahinch Castle. We launched and we came back and he got out of the car and he said that was [00:49:15] one of the best drives I’ve ever had. And I was like, it definitely wasn’t my conversation. It was definitely more the landscape. [00:49:20] Um, but yeah, we have a good relationship. I find him one of the most [00:49:25] fascinating human beings, just because he is he’s the most the most intelligent [00:49:30] person I think I’ve ever met, especially in a Dental. And, you know, within dentistry and the [00:49:35] ability for him to simplify, simplify things and educate them is incredible. Never mind is [00:49:40] his other hobbies and bits and pieces. I just don’t see how. Because, you know, I try my best to have all the time in the world as [00:49:45] well. But he has. He’s some sort of teleporting device or something, I think, because, [00:49:50] you know, he’s in different countries every week with the same energy and the same buzz and, you know, [00:49:55] and never mind all of the research output that he still does, all the education stuff he still does [00:50:00] in Japan. And yeah, incredible.

Payman Langroudi: You know, [00:50:05] that that thing about a lot of times simplicity comes from deep understanding. [00:50:10] Yeah. You know, because you say, I mean, kind of you were [00:50:15] alluding to all right. The three ways of doing this, the three ways to bring it down to [00:50:20] three succinct things. You need a deep understanding. The other thing I the [00:50:25] older I get, the more I realise. I mean, you probably know this already, but being an expert [00:50:30] at something. It comes down to just doing the basics, correct? Yeah. [00:50:35] That’s it. That’s the whole.

Payman Langroudi: Thing.

Rory Boyd: And it’s playing [00:50:40] by the rules that you know.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Not not shortcuts.

Payman Langroudi: No shortcuts.

Rory Boyd: And [00:50:45] and if there isn’t enough for all, there isn’t enough for all okay. You know. Yeah. You know, [00:50:50] and I, you know, I often get it when, especially in the dental school, someone comes over. Oh, well, [00:50:55] can I, can I do the root canal treatment on this tooth? You know that tooth that’s a retained [00:51:00] root, in my opinion. That’s not a. Yeah, but you know, but I can still do the root canal. It’s like. Yeah, right. It’s [00:51:05] playing by the rules. Yeah. It’s like 100% basics. And knowing your own limits [00:51:10] and just doing the basics right. And again, it comes back to for me it’s [00:51:15] assessment and planning, you know, cutting a crown or executing a veneer or [00:51:20] doing a good composite bond up or posting core crowns and over [00:51:25] feeding them out. But you know, if you can assess properly and pick the case and pick the easy one, pick the best way to [00:51:30] do it. Executing the treatment is easy. Picking the right time to do it is the tricky bit [00:51:35] and that’s the basics. It’s understanding good diagnosis, good planning. And then [00:51:40] once you have your problem list, I don’t start any treatment. Won’t touch the patient with any burr until you have your [00:51:45] list of treatments that you you know I’m going tip tip tip I just got my it’s like cooking and I [00:51:50] like I make my recipe and I write out the recipe before I start and I just go through one, [00:51:55] two, three.

Rory Boyd: And that is just pure assessment and planning. But if you do not have that, [00:52:00] you don’t have the vehicle to get to success. You can’t go through a treatment without having it [00:52:05] absolutely planned to the nth degree beforehand. And and you know, don’t get [00:52:10] me wrong, some stuff may change along the the treatment. You know, some of our patients are three, five years [00:52:15] long. Um, some stuff changes. Ortho can’t achieve what you thought they could or, [00:52:20] you know, think teeth fail in the interim things change. But but it’s assessment and planning and and that is the basics [00:52:25] and it’s success. You know, what you’re doing is diagnosing problems [00:52:30] and setting the dentistry rules of what I can and can’t do against that. That’s it. Everything [00:52:35] else is, you know, that’s that’s as complicated as it needs to be. And I also [00:52:40] think the best the experts are the best philosophy of the best treatment [00:52:45] philosophy is I need to do as little dentistry as physically possible [00:52:50] to get to the desired outcome. And a lot of times we can overengineer and we’re using dentistry, [00:52:55] you know, different dentistry to cut corners, taking teeth out and putting implants in where we maybe we [00:53:00] should hold on to them is the least amount of dentistry somebody has in their mouth.

Rory Boyd: And the more amount of [00:53:05] their beautiful, healthy, natural teeth they have in their mouth. For me, that’s successful dentistry, [00:53:10] and that might be slightly against the grain for somebody to think, oh, well, he’s a prosthodontist. And [00:53:15] he, you know, specialises in treating porcelain deficiencies. And um, [00:53:20] but for me the the best treatment plan is the smallest one to, [00:53:25] to achieve the desired outcome and not overengineer it. Keeping it simple, keeping it basic [00:53:30] and just really meticulous assessment and planning I think [00:53:35] and I think I think as you said, you know, experts are you know, to [00:53:40] simplify something, you need to know a lot. And I appreciate that. And I think that is fair enough, you know, to to apply [00:53:45] the correct system to a problem, um, to or to an input if you, you know, if [00:53:50] we go back to systems and input process output, you know, to apply the best process [00:53:55] to whatever the input is to achieve the desired outcome does take a breadth of knowledge [00:54:00] or experience. And it’s interesting. I was listening to your I’m trying to remember who it was, but one of your [00:54:05] other guests that you had on and you were talking about experience and you couldn’t buy it and experience you have to [00:54:10] go through and that you have to make mistakes to, to develop.

Rory Boyd: I [00:54:15] agree with that to a point. Where I disagree with that is that you can’t buy experience to [00:54:20] to a point, uh, and that’s education, because the difference, you know, and the difference [00:54:25] between postgraduate and undergraduate education for me is that undergraduate education is [00:54:30] based on textbooks and it’s based on these are the rules. And this is the way postgraduate [00:54:35] education is based on research. I’m learning of somebody else’s experience. So [00:54:40] if I follow the rules of the research or the guidelines or, [00:54:45] or that I’m actually using somebody else’s experience and adding it [00:54:50] to my own without having to actually do it right? Don’t get me wrong, that doesn’t there’s there’s nothing that [00:54:55] will, you know, teach you how to do a crime, prep better, you know, change your crime preps from [00:55:00] 12 degrees to six degrees of taper. You know, that is you need hands on experience. But [00:55:05] for people out there that that think that they can just start tackling any [00:55:10] case and put it down to experience if it goes wrong, is is where I [00:55:15] and I, that’s where I, I’m, I’m an academic. I, I enjoy the education, I enjoy [00:55:20] the postgraduate thing. And I think what you do and effectively what you’re doing in [00:55:25] three years of a postgraduate is accelerating the ability to do what you could do if [00:55:30] you didn’t know.

Rory Boyd: Not everyone has to do a. To get there. There’s plenty of ways to skin a cat, and if you want to do your high level [00:55:35] portion ceramic work, you don’t need to be a prosthodontist. It might take you 15, 20 years or whatever [00:55:40] of different weekend courses and different bits to add to your to your to your, you know, [00:55:45] strings to add to your bow. But what you’re doing by doing a postgrad is buying the experience of everyone [00:55:50] before you, because that’s where you’re going to learn the classic literature, the modern literature. And [00:55:55] then you put that together with your own outlook and overview on, on on things and where that fits into [00:56:00] your own practice. And that’s the, that’s the difference. And, and for me [00:56:05] then, then yes, you still need the experience of, of, you know, cutting crowns and talking to patients [00:56:10] and all of that. But I think education is, you know, with regards to experience, [00:56:15] just when I, when I was listening to that, I was like, can buy a little bit, but don’t get me wrong, you [00:56:20] know, and you still need experience of things going wrong, that it happens to all of us. [00:56:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which brings us nicely onto I think. I think, you know, the reason I said that was because I asked the lady [00:56:30] about mistakes and she she was stuttering. And then I wanted to sort [00:56:35] of, sort of frame it in the experience, uh, bucket. But but, but [00:56:40] I, I take on what you say completely. Let’s, let’s move on to the darker [00:56:45] side of this port. Errors, mistakes, [00:56:50] clinical mistakes in the light of, you know, the black box thinking [00:56:55] plane goes down, they figure out what went wrong. Not not [00:57:00] who’s to blame. And then they put it out for the whole community to to learn from [00:57:05] that mistake. Yeah, it would be lovely if Ireland’s top prosthodontist [00:57:10] could hit us with some mistakes.

Rory Boyd: Can I have a look under the curtain? Yeah. [00:57:15] Look, I mean, mistakes happen, everyone. And I’ve always funny. I’ve always said, you know, the best speakers are the ones [00:57:20] that get up and they give a presentation on everything that went wrong in their career. And they’ve got so much you [00:57:25] kind of think you look up to them. Oh, how much confidence they have to to show that it’s still difficult to [00:57:30] go through mistakes and but yeah, it’s 100% you know, that’s that’s one of the reasons we you know, we [00:57:35] would encourage certainly when I’m teaching is to take photographs of everything because you don’t you you [00:57:40] get more out of case analysis and retrospective analysis of your cases than you do out of anything else. [00:57:45] And it’s another one of the reasons why I think digital dentistry and scanners [00:57:50] are improving everybody’s preparation design tenfold. Because [00:57:55] when you blow your I’ve a curve like in my practice, I have a curve, I don’t know, 42 [00:58:00] inch screen or something connected to my, um, my scanner. So my preps [00:58:05] are now like a foot and a half wide when I’m looking at them. And that retrospective [00:58:10] analysis will make you go back and re prep every one that you do and repolish [00:58:15] and re and make sure you’ve actually smoothed out margins. So, so retrospective analysis is obviously I [00:58:20] think super key start off in my career. Biggest mistake I was working in Belfast [00:58:25] and this is just time management is the is what this should be titled. As I was working in an [00:58:30] NHS practice in West Belfast and you know, it was very much, [00:58:35] you know, look as, as we know them, it’s fee per item in Belfast, very different to the UDA [00:58:40] system.

Rory Boyd: And in England it was certainly at the time. But you’re trying to do we were trying trying [00:58:45] to you know, you weren’t, you weren’t getting paid an awful lot for it. We were trying to push the push the boundaries and the time management. [00:58:50] And I remember unfortunately this patient needed IV sedation as well. So that kind of brought [00:58:55] you down to 45 odd minutes of whatever of decent sedation. So we [00:59:00] had our data and my plan was to do a multi root canal treatment on a lower six. This is granted 16 [00:59:05] months out of college. I was doing a lower rate six multi Indo [00:59:10] post and core prep impression temporary [00:59:15] uh in 45 minutes. So this is where [00:59:20] I, you know this is where I’ll go back to the, you know, not knowing your limits. And time management was definitely not at [00:59:25] its best at this point in time. Granted, it was the guts of whatever 15 years ago. [00:59:30] So anyway, I’m working away with the the, um, [00:59:35] the Ando and I’m struggling. You know, I’m not really. I’m not really finding [00:59:40] that. Never mind the distal canal. I’m not finding the two major ones either. So anyway, [00:59:45] I end up, you know, getting through their gates, getting a bit of pressure. I got through it. We [00:59:50] were using thermal fill at the time, so there wasn’t. I was using an apex locator, which gave [00:59:55] me slightly weird readings, but I could get pretty consistent with the readings.

Rory Boyd: And [01:00:00] anyway, I took my post-op after my my after my post was placed and after [01:00:05] my core was placed, I took my post-op x ray and realised both medial observations [01:00:10] were perfectly to length, but unfortunately not inside the tooth. And [01:00:15] I perforated both of them. Um, yeah. No, actually they were right in [01:00:20] the trabecular bone. They were, I mean, length wise, bang on. But, uh, they were not, not in the right [01:00:25] spot. And to be fair, to this day, it’s still the worst thing I’ve ever done in the dental chair. And, um, I have the X-ray [01:00:30] of it, I show it. Lectures often said, look, things can go wrong and can happen. [01:00:35] And this is what happens when time management was an issue. I was inexperienced, I [01:00:40] was trying to do too much in one session. We ended up repairing the perforations [01:00:45] and the tooth to well, I don’t know. It’s a long time ago, but [01:00:50] certainly five five years post-operatively the tooth was still there. So there is, there is a there is a positive [01:00:55] end to that story, but I just remember it so clearly. It was the first time I’d made a big mistake. [01:01:00] Uh, or. Well, you know, I was, uh, same mistake. I’d perforated a tooth and I hadn’t taken a working length radiograph, [01:01:05] and it was the first time I felt that gut feeling of. Was my technique. Right enough. [01:01:10] Did I leave enough time? And I could see holes in my planning for even [01:01:15] such a small case. But I could see holes in my time.

Rory Boyd: Management was poor. I was I was [01:01:20] being a bit gung ho. That should have been separated in a different, you know, different appointments. But it was [01:01:25] the first ever case that rocked me. It was the first one that made me feel a bit, oh, I used to I [01:01:30] thought I was good at this. And, you know, until that happens, I think, you know, I think it’s [01:01:35] obviously not important that if that happens, if there’s a negative outcome for a patient, you know, that goes without being said. [01:01:40] But it’s important that you do have either near misses or [01:01:45] issues that you that you that you see, that you appreciate, you understand, and you then realise [01:01:50] you have to make a change in how you execute, whatever it may be. The other one, [01:01:55] I’ll so that was kind of the the start of my undergraduate or my, my, my general [01:02:00] dentistry career. The other one I’ll use, which hurts me a little [01:02:05] bit more is, is, is, is. And the advice on this one is, no, no, your [01:02:10] new lab would be that I would title this one. And I had done a [01:02:15] veneer case and I was using a fancy new lab, um, based [01:02:20] internationally. And they came back and this [01:02:25] again would be relatively close to the start of my prosthodontic career. And I’d never used [01:02:30] the lab before, and I’d always used labs that preached [01:02:35] the veneers. This lab, I for some reason [01:02:40] presumed they preached the veneers and therefore I only just did a washout [01:02:45] etch with with phosphoric. I didn’t use ferric acid on them, so thinking [01:02:50] that they were pre etched and I fitted the veneers and they were beautiful.

Rory Boyd: They were they. [01:02:55] I still have photographs of them saying that they’re some of the finest ceramic work. They’re beautifully done. Beautiful [01:03:00] feldspathic hand stack. You know, whatever they were, they were they were just [01:03:05] the bee’s knees. I was delighted with myself. And the patient came [01:03:10] back, I’d say with the first one D bonded six months later, which I was actually quite surprised that [01:03:15] it would that that it would stay on for that long. And initially I was like, gosh, that’s very strange. [01:03:20] And, you know, really wouldn’t expect that. And fine, we [01:03:25] we were actually able to re cement that one. And then about a month later the next one went, [01:03:30] I was like, oh my God, what on earth is I racked my brains. What is going wrong here? You [01:03:35] know, they were I they were cemented under isolation. We’ve gone through the whole, you know, everything [01:03:40] was cracked and then it twigged. It dawned on me. So I phoned the technician and thankfully [01:03:45] I hadn’t done a lot of cases with him because it took six months to come back and work. Right. [01:03:50] I said, just a quick question. The veneers that we did there six months ago, they [01:03:55] for some reason they’re de-bonding and they’re not de-bonding under, you know, it’s not a bruxism issue or [01:04:00] whatever. But anyway, we got to the bottom of it. They weren’t etched. So I had fitted the set [01:04:05] of six anterior veneers as a specialist prosthodontist that were not etched.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:04:10] labs what what did you do.

Payman Langroudi: Get the patient in.

Payman Langroudi: And.

Rory Boyd: Did them all again? [01:04:15] Um, and thankfully she was a wonderful patient and you [01:04:20] know, and she was happy to get them redone. That could have been very different. [01:04:25] Um, as you can imagine, you know, the three hour session that that I would take off to do that. Uh, [01:04:30] and the three, you know, the second three hour fit that she, I’m sure didn’t love and enjoy. So thankfully [01:04:35] communication was, well, good.

Payman Langroudi: But I just, you know, that both of those were really good. Good, [01:04:40] good good ones. Yeah. Because you can learn something from both of those. But I kind of want one that went [01:04:45] badly because both of those went really well. You want a bad one? Yeah. Like you’re most likely. Think of it this [01:04:50] way. Your most difficult patient.

Rory Boyd: Yeah. I’ll [01:04:55] be honest with you. I’m lucky enough. And I think actually, when we’re [01:05:00] discussing difficulties, I actually think the biggest thing that you need to learn when you’re having a difficult [01:05:05] or, I suppose, miscommunication or difficult, I think communication with a patient [01:05:10] after any difficult case is key. It gets you out of trouble, and if you can communicate [01:05:15] with the patient and explain to them why, you know, an [01:05:20] issue has arisen or problems, that the communication with the patient is key. So when you ask me, tell [01:05:25] me about a patient that went horribly wrong or your worst patient or you know, anyone that sued you or [01:05:30] issues like that, I don’t have many, I have some, I [01:05:35] have some, you know, I don’t have many that that have turned that have been a lasting problem. I [01:05:40] have certainly let me think now.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:05:45] mean, okay, another way of looking at it, but if you want is, you know, you’re [01:05:50] in digital. And in digital, it’s still very much [01:05:55] sort of in the evolutionary phase. So, you know, one one [01:06:00] way of looking at obviously the etching issue that was that was an error, communication error, [01:06:05] I guess. But with digital, you must have had moments right where you tried tried something and it didn’t [01:06:10] work. I mean, how can you how can you be at the forefront of that.

Payman Langroudi: Without full charge?

Rory Boyd: So [01:06:15] as you said, when you’re when you’re when you’re learning, I first started, I did the, the [01:06:20] three ship course when I was in UCLA and that would have been. 2013? [01:06:25] Maybe. So. I’m like ten years using three [01:06:30] ships. Uh, and formlabs. Um, but there are different [01:06:35] iterations and. Yeah, 100%. Okay, so let’s open up the closet of the digital [01:06:40] tries and fails. Um, first, first ever digital workshop that took [01:06:45] me, I think, about 36 hours sitting at the table at, uh, over total. [01:06:50] Um, I was doing it with a Dental designer with three ship, and the thing crashed every [01:06:55] time you did. Maybe six teeth crash. Next one start again. Not nearly [01:07:00] nearly never. I nearly never went back to digital again. That was that was it. I think the big ones [01:07:05] that clinically was full arch implant, 3D printed. Um, [01:07:10] uh, yeah. I mean, all of them broke. And [01:07:15] look, I know the materials have got a little better, but they still break. Okay. [01:07:20] And look, milled acrylic breaks. So printed acrylics definitely got a break. Um, just the impact resistance. [01:07:25] And the fracture toughness isn’t good enough. And the other one that will really, for anybody out there that’ll really [01:07:30] kill them is, uh, just milled or 3D printed templates [01:07:35] because there are two when you try and put it on a tie base, the the neck [01:07:40] of the whether it’s acrylic or, um, printed materials, it’s too [01:07:45] thin. So it fractures off the tie base. So the amount of times [01:07:50] that I thought I was saving money and I was doing it, really, I was being really cool and I was, I was getting [01:07:55] I was, I was 3D printing teeth before because I was using basically I would use the denture teeth.

Rory Boyd: Um, [01:08:00] when they were first marked, they had a crown and Formlabs had a crown and an original crown [01:08:05] and bridge material, but actually the denture teeth material I found a little bit better, a little bit more fracture toughness [01:08:10] to it. And the 3D printed that. And then, you know, you put it and I dined [01:08:15] out in lectures of doing that. And oh, it was the new tooth coloured printable material that was CE marked [01:08:20] at the time. I didn’t at that point have that every single one of them fractured [01:08:25] because I didn’t have the longevity evidence. I was like 30 [01:08:30] and I’d been using, you know, this material come out six months. It didn’t have any evidence. And [01:08:35] the. Yeah. So I mean, then we learned that we need new materials and it’s interesting. And like, [01:08:40] I’ve worked with Formlabs for a long time. If you look at the hard acrylic, which is called Dental [01:08:45] light, if you look at their acrylic material, I don’t know how many hundred [01:08:50] night guards I’ve made with light version one, but I would say I’ve probably had about, [01:08:55] I’d say 90 fractures probably over the time. And it was interesting. [01:09:00] I always asked the question, did it? And I should fair. I should have done some evidence on it because [01:09:05] we I make a lot of night appearances. You’ve got a lot of ceramic work in there that needs insurance [01:09:10] policies over them. So that’s your night guard. Um, and yeah, I’d say I’d [01:09:15] say I’m probably 90 fractures, probably.

Rory Boyd: But when you always ask the patient, how did it, you know, did it break and function and oh, [01:09:20] you know, you kind of looked a bit shocked. No, no. It’s when they dropped it in the sink when they were washing it. And it was always [01:09:25] when they dropped it in the sink. And it just didn’t have the impact resistance. It didn’t have the [01:09:30] durability and fracture toughness of of that. And interestingly enough, Formlabs got fed that information [01:09:35] back and said, look, these are breaking all the time. And if you look when they they then went back re-engineered [01:09:40] and brought out V2, the version two of it haven’t had one fracture. And it’s a really good evidence [01:09:45] of seeing in a very short space of time. And if you look at 3D printing in total, it’s [01:09:50] a really good a really good evidence. If you look at the evolution of the materials, the printing hasn’t really changed. [01:09:55] You can still use like Formlabs just brought out their new one, but you can still use a form two, [01:10:00] right? Which is, which is uh, by modern standards are relic. [01:10:05] You know, it’s a classic printer. You can still use that with new [01:10:10] materials and still works fine. That’s I mean, that’s in print. I still have a form two. It’s just in the corner. And if I [01:10:15] need multiple materials for tomorrow, so I’ll throw it on. It still prints prints pretty good. And [01:10:20] you know, you can use the modern materials in a printer that was bought for three and a half grand. [01:10:25] I got that seven years ago. The technology changes slightly. And yeah, if you want to get into [01:10:30] difference between, you know, SLA printing and and DLP or [01:10:35] LCD versus, you know, that’s fine.

Rory Boyd: We can get into that detail no problem. But the [01:10:40] hardware and the printers hasn’t changed. The materials have, [01:10:45] because when we went through the evolution or the or the the kind of that first [01:10:50] use or issue of everything breaking and everything going haywire [01:10:55] and not having your settings correct. And when you when we first went to print the crown and bridge material, there were way [01:11:00] too tight in the dies. We needed to create more, more leeway in the cement [01:11:05] space or whatever you want to call it, drill offset if it was in a mill. But yeah, and [01:11:10] the biggest one with regards to patience was breaking temporaries and breaking night guards. And [01:11:15] those and you know, those are the two big changes, I think certainly in the materials science [01:11:20] was the everything that came out of a printer was brittle. Um, and. Due to [01:11:25] the process of how the was being cured, photopolymers and the polymerisation [01:11:30] of it just couldn’t create a durable fracture toughness, so they had to put atoms into it. But [01:11:35] that’s just a perfect example of being the first adopter. Or I’m not going to say I [01:11:40] was the first, you know, being one of the early adopters of something. And it’s why someone says, oh, yeah, always [01:11:45] use it. Second, you know, because you’re the first guy. It’s gonna work out, you know, when it goes wrong. But unfortunately, we [01:11:50] need some guys to use it first to further work out what’s going on. So with the digital [01:11:55] side.

Payman Langroudi: Look, it’s a funny. It’s a funny.

Payman Langroudi: Dance, isn’t it? Yeah, it’s a funny dance because I had Professor [01:12:00] Banerjee on a couple of weeks ago, and he was saying 17 years from [01:12:05] initial paper to general usage of stuff, 17 [01:12:10] years, you can’t be at the forefront and wait 17 years before you can. Yeah. [01:12:15]

Payman Langroudi: And so it’s.

Rory Boyd: That’s the same as when a patient asks me how long does an implant last? And you’re like, oh, you know, [01:12:20] you know, we I’ve actually come around to saying, actually, I have no idea. And they [01:12:25] kind of they kind of like stand up and say, well, if somebody says they know how long it’s last, they they don’t know enough, [01:12:30] because the more the more the more research you read and the more literature you read. We [01:12:35] realise that implants have their issues. They’re not the golden bullet that we hoped and wanted. They’re definitely [01:12:40] the gold standard for any tooth repair and replacement. But but we also need to [01:12:45] be aware that the research that we’re reading around implants now were implants that were designed [01:12:50] 20 years ago. So they’re not the same fixture that we’re placing now. [01:12:55] If you look at all the early research that tells us, you know, absolutely what the type two implant [01:13:00] for me is still possibly, from my experience, the best implant, because it’s the one you’re [01:13:05] seeing lasting the longest. You know, and, you know, if we’re thinking if we’re placing implants in 20 and 30 [01:13:10] year olds, we’re expecting to get an 80 year lifespan out of them. Hopefully. [01:13:15] All right. Well, certainly hopefully some of them will.

Rory Boyd: Um, but if we look at the the best evidence [01:13:20] we have on longevity, especially the early stuff, um, you know, peri implantitis and these [01:13:25] things are probably something we made with, with moving away from machined surfaces. Now, I let my periodontal [01:13:30] colleagues argue that one out. But but but no, you’re correct. And we’re saying like when [01:13:35] you said 17 years, if you waited on 17 years for research on [01:13:40] margin elevation, if you waited 17 years on, you know, let’s look at some of the [01:13:45] the evidence in biomimetic dentistry and the new, the new areas of dentistry that are, that are [01:13:50] moving to the forefront. If you wait 17 years for the evidence, you’re going to 17 years potentially [01:13:55] doing the wrong thing. Um, or, you know, not as good a thing. So that is [01:14:00] a massive problem. And especially one of the things in dentistry, sorry, in digital dentistry is [01:14:05] I hope and I think that that, that that gap is faster because it’s actually industry [01:14:10] led. And again, the same again, I hope the implant data and things [01:14:15] is faster because there are pros and cons to industry leading research. Okay. So obviously we know the cons of [01:14:20] it can be a you know, I’m not going to say manipulated, but we can get results that maybe wouldn’t be [01:14:25] found in other people’s hands at times.

Rory Boyd: But what we also get is, is, is fast [01:14:30] movement, um, with regards to research, because they need to have evidence to show that their products better [01:14:35] or faster or whatever way, whatever way it may be. But at least we’re getting evidence done quickly. And [01:14:40] if you look at kind of, you know, look at all the different every, every new composite brand has new new composite [01:14:45] new material coming out every couple of years. They need evidence on that good and quick. [01:14:50] So at least they threw money at it. And it happens quickly. Now for [01:14:55] an academic purist, they will be rolling their eyes and pulling their hair out at that. I understand, but [01:15:00] at least if you look at the 3D printing world, the development that we’ve had in materials in [01:15:05] five years and last five years probably has been huge. And that’s continuing [01:15:10] in the background because they knew the hardware was fine, it was accurate enough. It’s reliable enough, um, [01:15:15] you know, and it’s good and consistent. It was the material was letting the process down. And look, if [01:15:20] the golden goose is 3D printing ceramics, which, you know, look, you go to [01:15:25] any conference now you’ll see a zirconia printer somewhere.

Rory Boyd: Um, so they do exist. They [01:15:30] are there. But if the golden goose is getting our, you know, our our being able to print everything [01:15:35] in house, which I think is, you know, I, I kind of teach a philosophy of [01:15:40] chairside, data acquisition, outsource design Chairside manufacture because we get we [01:15:45] get all the data we make, we, you know, we photograph scans, cone beams, whatever it may be. We put [01:15:50] the we put the we put the input into the into the system. The process is then [01:15:55] the design, which is the time, you know, it takes the time and the and [01:16:00] the and the artistry skills and the design skills, software skills, all of that. We outsource that and then we [01:16:05] chairside manufacture. So you can make that, that, that system far faster, more efficient [01:16:10] system with better communication lines in between the input process and output. That’s how I see [01:16:15] the future of digital dentistry integrating into practice. I think the design aspect is the [01:16:20] issue with regards to high quality, um, and time, whereas [01:16:25] the input and the and the manufacture, if it can be done chairside that whole process [01:16:30] just speeds up and you then also have more, potentially more control as a user. That’s [01:16:35] how I see that process.

Payman Langroudi: It’s nice. So when we look at.

Rory Boyd: We look at printing, [01:16:40] they want to be able to do everything. And obviously, you know, additive manufacture is [01:16:45] more efficient than reductive. And, you know, and if we look at, you know, the wastage that we have when we’re milling [01:16:50] and the issues with regards to accuracy and drill size [01:16:55] and all the issues that come along with milling, if we could print it and the fact that we could [01:17:00] potentially print it with depth of colour into it, okay. So we can actually print it in layers and we actually print it in [01:17:05] layers of different materials potentially. Then that’s for me [01:17:10] probably the golden goose for with regards to printing. And it’s just a material science. The hardware [01:17:15] is there. It’s getting the chemistry and the materials correct. And because you can, you can already print [01:17:20] it as a quinacrine the physical characteristics are nothing like what we can do with [01:17:25] traditional zirconia milled from pucks or whatever. But it will get there. And that will, I [01:17:30] think, be something that we’re looking at coming into laboratories that we’re using in the next 5 to 10 years [01:17:35] has to be because it just gets better control. Imagine, imagine being able to print [01:17:40] the shades into a zirconia monolithic zirconia crown. You can print depth of translucence, you can print [01:17:45] cracks in it. You can print. So you can effectively take a photometrically perfect photograph [01:17:50] of the adjacent central incisor. Pixelate that in whatever way.

Rory Boyd: Let’s just say [01:17:55] for your brain pixelate it and then print the exact copy [01:18:00] from a from of that tooth like unbelievable. And you can print the translucency [01:18:05] depth into it. The cracks, the stains there. You know, if we did monolithic. Now we’ve got stains on the outside which come [01:18:10] off over time whatever. So for me that in in the printing world, [01:18:15] in digital world, that’s, that’s, that’s a golden goose. And it was the same actually. Let’s go back to mistakes. [01:18:20] Digital articulation. We’ve been doing full mouth rehabs digitally for [01:18:25] for decades. And we really haven’t cracked articulation. And I [01:18:30] had I have a method or had a method and I somewhat modified over the last probably 18, [01:18:35] 20 months. But my issue. So my issue was you could make beautiful [01:18:40] restorations in MIP. Um, or in CR, whatever your treatment position [01:18:45] is in the case. But what you couldn’t do really was control X, so so what you ended up doing was making [01:18:50] restorations that had really flat molars and are really prominent anterior guidance, right? [01:18:55] To get just completely overwhelm the system with anterior guidance so that you weren’t going to have [01:19:00] interferences posteriorly. And you kind of thought, well, you can get away with that. And [01:19:05] you know, patients don’t, you know, patients are like, oh, what are my cusp angles are my lower sevens. You know, they weren’t [01:19:10] too aware of it. But when you saw the case and you look back on it, it’s like, that’s not good enough [01:19:15] because I can do that better with an articulator.

Rory Boyd: Okay. And again, like you go through all of your classic [01:19:20] training and your classic literature and God go back to all the [01:19:25] occlusion stuff and yeah, look at, you know, men of men of spent blood [01:19:30] learning that stuff and you’ve just decided, oh, well, I actually have a scanner, so I don’t need to do [01:19:35] it. Um, and I’m just going to flatten out all the cusps, basically make Fillmore three hubs that are like, um, [01:19:40] you know, costless teeth or mono monoplane teeth. And I [01:19:45] think I can do it better than that. So then I kind of went, well, actually, look, if I’m not going to use [01:19:50] an articulator, I need to use patients the best articulator we have. Right? So I was like, let’s [01:19:55] actually if we can, you know, copy mill stuff, let’s actually put it into the patient [01:20:00] with full anatomy test, the occlusal scheme in full anatomy. And [01:20:05] I can either use those acrylic crowns as tests and just mill them again in zirconia [01:20:10] or Imax or whatever, so I can actually use them same. Or I can put them in, adjust them to where I want [01:20:15] the occlusion in the mouth, and hopefully you get it pretty close. You’re not you’re not there for 2 to 4 [01:20:20] days equilibrating acrylic. But you can make adjustments, rescan [01:20:25] those temps and then you then use that as your as your guide for your for your finals. [01:20:30]

Rory Boyd: So that was the process and how I did it for a long time. And then the evolution you started [01:20:35] off with like not being very occlusal aware to to being a lot better. And I still think [01:20:40] like the patient’s the best articulator. And I’m not I don’t love adjusting stuff. So I’ll generally try to do it in, [01:20:45] in provisionals and then adjust those rescanned those and show the show the technician where to make adjustments [01:20:50] when you reach under temps. But then the introduction of using [01:20:55] a face scanner, um, was an interesting way to integrate occlusion into your my system. So [01:21:00] basically what I did was I made a face scan of the patient, and I could integrate my intraoral [01:21:05] scans into that scan. You basically had two scans. You just scan with retractors in and you just a regular [01:21:10] smiling face scan. And on the patient I mark Berman’s point, which [01:21:15] I change axis and my Frankfurt plane, which effectively, if you think of [01:21:20] the upper arm of an Articulator, the top limb is the Frankfurt plane and the [01:21:25] the little notch, which is where which is effectively Baron’s Point, the terminal hinge axis. So [01:21:30] as long as we have those two pieces of information, I can mount the upper jaw into my digital [01:21:35] face scan. So then we mounted that and then you [01:21:40] through all of that into exocad.

Rory Boyd: And now you can mount the articulator into the patient because you’ve got those, those [01:21:45] reference points to the incisal the maxillary incisal edge or maxillary plane. And [01:21:50] then that’s your, that’s your, that’s your mounted. So off you go. And and we did that. And [01:21:55] I suppose the next step is module. And I think you know I haven’t got my jaw [01:22:00] yet. I don’t have the, the financial remit to, to to purchase that just yet. [01:22:05] Um, but yeah I think, I think articulation is probably the next, you know, digital [01:22:10] articulation is the next kind of big step forward with, you know, [01:22:15] modules. Certainly the big step forward in the last couple of years, modules. Now the, you know, the, you know, face [01:22:20] scanner, the original face scanners, was it uh plane or Pathfinder and [01:22:25] plane. It was Arkansans system was really good. It used a funny articulation [01:22:30] process. But it was it was really good. And the face scanners kind of went out, kind of went away. And then they kind of came back. [01:22:35] But I think, you know, real time articulation with module. And I think like module, [01:22:40] I don’t know, there’s 60 odd grand for a unit at this point that’s going to come down. There will be copies. [01:22:45] There’s going to be lots of you know, they’re definitely digital articulation will be the next, next [01:22:50] area to jump I think area.

Payman Langroudi: I went to, I went to a [01:22:55] lecture by, um, Nasri. Um, I [01:23:00] can’t say his surname. You know who I’m talking about? Nasri. Milk. [01:23:05] And, um. Dcd. [01:23:10] And it blew me away, man. It blew me away. I [01:23:15] mean, it was weird because I came out of it just blown away, and everyone else seemed to be not as [01:23:20] impressed as I was. And I kind of figured maybe, uh, I’m just not following, like, [01:23:25] I’m a bit behind, but but the amount of different technologies [01:23:30] that he had going on in that and that, uh, lecture.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Rory Boyd: No. It’s bad. [01:23:35] And like, I remember the first and that is one of the issues with digital, especially when you’re when you’re giving talks [01:23:40] on it. I went over I spoke at the Pan-Hellenic, uh Dental Congress in Greece two years ago, [01:23:45] I think it was. And, um, I was doing I was doing a talk on 3D printing, and I was, I [01:23:50] think the title was, uh, chairside 3D printing A to Z or something along those lines. And I [01:23:55] was in Athens and I flew over and I was I remember arriving, I was like, gosh, this is quite big. I’d never been [01:24:00] to the conference before. And I was like, I was like, how many are here? And they said, yeah, I think there was 4500. I was like, [01:24:05] all right, okay. Yeah. Sizeable.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Rory Boyd: And uh, I kind of turned up [01:24:10] and I was like, right. And I walked through the trade show, just get a gauge on, like, what was kind of going on in the trade show was full [01:24:15] of zirconia printers, every 3D loads of brands I’d never heard of, and [01:24:20] every scanner under the sun. And then I walked through, had, you know, my best, [01:24:25] you know, 3D printing. I shall fill my three halves. And I integrated every, you know, systems [01:24:30] and how we use 3D printed temporaries. And we moved through, you know, how we move through the process of all the rehabs [01:24:35] and everything. And at the start, I don’t know how many were in the room. I’d say there was maybe [01:24:40] 2000 people. And, uh, I asked, I just said at the start, like, I’d like to gauge [01:24:45] what? Because in digital you can often get a wide range of. And it’s really hard one to [01:24:50] kind of set a talk for because you could have someone who doesn’t know what 3D printer is to someone who uses it every day and is [01:24:55] trying to, you know, apparently you’re the guru and you’re going to teach them all the kind of new, intricate bits. So [01:25:00] it’s really hard to try and serve everybody in the audience.

Rory Boyd: So when I asked them to put their hands up [01:25:05] of who you who has the 3D printer in their office and there was one. [01:25:10] So I was like, oh gosh, right, okay, I’m [01:25:15] gonna have to completely re-engineer this talk and kind of, you know, spend a lot more time on it already starts [01:25:20] kind of introducing 3D, 3D printing technology, but that’s one of the most, the biggest difficulties with [01:25:25] regards to digital, because there’s such a wide spectrum of people who use it. And the other thing you often [01:25:30] forget, and it’s one of the biggest things I learned about when I, when I, when I was doing talks or conferences or stuff like that [01:25:35] is that you forget. And this is going to sound really like, you know, [01:25:40] self promoting, but you kind of forget how much you know, and like if someone’s asking you to speak, it’s something they [01:25:45] obviously think you know a lot about it. But you also forget how if you if you haven’t spent the last ten years doing [01:25:50] it, how little others sometimes do as well. So it’s time to tailor your what you think [01:25:55] is quite a simple concept, but you forget the fact that you’ve been studying this for an extra number [01:26:00] of years and you’ve been you’ve kind of really.

Rory Boyd: And I really went down the rabbit hole with digital, so you forget that people don’t know [01:26:05] what the different 3D printers are or what the materials are, how they work, you know, the simple, basic [01:26:10] stuff. And that’s something that I’ve tried to evolve as I, you know, over my career of speaking at things or whatever, is [01:26:15] to try and really understand that there’s a wide spectrum of people that have a wide spectrum of knowledge. And [01:26:20] I got the same thing that you got when I went and saw Wally Rene speak at [01:26:25] the first, um, American College of Prosthodontists digital symposium that was [01:26:30] on the midwinter. And I don’t know, we’re talking ten years ago, I think, and I walked into the room [01:26:35] with no digital experience whatsoever. Um, I’d never used a scanner. [01:26:40] And again, it was ten years ago. And, you know, so everything was kind of at [01:26:45] its earlier stage, scan flags were just coming out for implants, you know, it was it was at its [01:26:50] early. I think Nobel had brought out their kind of, you know, guided, semi [01:26:55] guided. But a guided implant was like, oh my gosh, you know.

Payman Langroudi: And.

Rory Boyd: Um, [01:27:00] and anyway I sat down and I was blown away and I knew boom, this is for me. I’m gonna I’m [01:27:05] getting launched into this because it was the first digital thing I’d been to, and I got blown away. And [01:27:10] the funny thing is, I went back and I go to quite a few digital meetings, but I went [01:27:15] back to one, and at the point where I realised it’s like, okay, I’m doing okay. Here’s when I [01:27:20] went in, I didn’t see anything, you know, blew me away or I didn’t see anything too new, like you said, like other people were like, yeah, [01:27:25] it was all right. Pretty, you know, pretty normal stuff. That’s the point, you know? Okay. You [01:27:30] know, I need to still obviously develop and and critique, but now I [01:27:35] have a decent handle on it. Once you’re starting to go to, like, world leading talks and you’ve a decent, you [01:27:40] know, you’ll always get a nugget, right? It doesn’t matter whether you go to a talk that is in your local area, with [01:27:45] your study club, with with five people, or whether you go to the the world’s best, [01:27:50] you know, whatever digital symposium or, you know, prosthodontics.

Payman Langroudi: I think what’s.

Payman Langroudi: What’s one [01:27:55] of the loveliest. One of the. Can you hear.

Payman Langroudi: Me? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: One of the loveliest [01:28:00] things is when you’ve suspected something and then you see an expert, a worldwide [01:28:05] leader, say that thing. And it’s just such a weird, wonderful thing, isn’t it? [01:28:10]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I know, 100% and I.

Rory Boyd: Because, you know, those little ideas come from somewhere. And, [01:28:15] you know, we all have them. There’s always something you think. Mhm. And then yeah you get getting that vindicated thought [01:28:20] vindicated I suppose.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. Thought vindicated.

Rory Boyd: Yeah I know 100%. No. [01:28:25] Like and from a digital for anybody who is listening that that finds [01:28:30] it that it’s too big a mountain to walk up or like oh gosh everyone’s ahead of me. And like digital [01:28:35] is such an easy thing to pick up because you just start small. You just start with one piece of kit, [01:28:40] you know? And like if somebody says about digital, you probably are, you probably have digital x rays. You probably have a digital, you [01:28:45] know, patient, patient dental record you probably have. Or if you don’t, you have [01:28:50] access to a digital OPG or cone beam or what have you. But everyone [01:28:55] sees entry to digital as an internal scanner. That’s fine. Okay, so let’s start there. But that’s but [01:29:00] digital is super easy. So and like whenever I’m talking to somebody about digital dentistry, you don’t need to go [01:29:05] and buy £200,000 worth of kit. You could go and have to buy an internal [01:29:10] scanner. There are so many now that are at a far more reasonable fraction [01:29:15] of what the price point that we originally bought them for. I mean, over here, 12, [01:29:20] €13,000 will get you an extremely good, you know, scanner. If you look at the kind of market disruptors [01:29:25] shining 3D metal whatever company I’m not, you know, aligned to any any of them specifically, [01:29:30] but those, you know, if you’re doing simple cases and not trying to, you know. [01:29:35]

Rory Boyd: Set the world alight. Those things work so well. They’re so user friendly. The software [01:29:40] interfaces are so simple and just getting into, you know, getting into the scanners. Then, okay, [01:29:45] maybe you want to do some more advanced cases. Maybe you want to look at upgrading. Look, I’ve always used three [01:29:50] ship. So I’m like, you know I’m not I don’t work for them. I don’t promote them. But [01:29:55] I’m like brand completely done in by three ship. I will never look [01:30:00] at another scanner. That’s not quite true but but at the minute I the three ship system has worked really [01:30:05] well in my hands. But you know, then what you’ll do is you’ll add a little 3D printer to it if you want to start making [01:30:10] some bleaching trays or some Essex retainers or something like that, and you just slowly but surely add [01:30:15] to your. And it’s the same process that everybody has done before, because we all had we kind of had [01:30:20] to learn it on the hop. So we’re kind of like, well, we use the scanner first, then, well, what could you use the scanner for? And okay, [01:30:25] we’ve got a 3D printer and then now you’ve added 3D printer. Now you add different materials. We can use those different materials [01:30:30] for different things. You can get kind of creative and then you maybe get a digital designer outsourced, which [01:30:35] I use, a digital designer who’s based in Ukraine.

Rory Boyd: And he’s amazing digital technician. [01:30:40] And he sends me back the work within three hours of me sending it to him, I can turn around. Time starts [01:30:45] getting. So you just added incrementally. It doesn’t have to be Everest. It doesn’t have to. You don’t have to be doing [01:30:50] full, large 3D printed prosthesis in the first week. It is just you can use it just as an impression [01:30:55] replacement to start with. And then you over time, you’ll find it so easy to use [01:31:00] and you can start to use different things taking scans of wax up, sending those along with cases, whatever it may be. [01:31:05] And but it just starts small. I think that’s the best advice I would give to anybody listening if they are trying to get into digital [01:31:10] dentistry. I’m a geek, so I try and I enjoy getting into getting [01:31:15] into areas that sometimes don’t work and come back out of those and you know, but yeah, just start small and there’s [01:31:20] so much the cost the cost barrier and I is I don’t think is a reasonable [01:31:25] excuse anymore. Look, when scanners were 4050 K that’s a, that’s an issue. But [01:31:30] when you know, when scanners are about the same price as your autoclave, I think, okay, we can start to, you [01:31:35] know, we can start to maybe look at those and add those to, to the business.

Payman Langroudi: And in the in the [01:31:40] practice. You’ve got a co-founder. Well, a co-principal, is that right? [01:31:45] Is it one of you? It’s two of us or. Yeah. What did he do? Is he a specialist too?

Rory Boyd: Yes [01:31:50] he is. Yeah. He’s. Period. So we met. He was. He was two years behind me when [01:31:55] he was doing his perio program. And basically. Yeah, I think whenever [01:32:00] you’re starting a business with somebody else, you’ve got to be very careful. Um, [01:32:05] especially if it’s one of your friends, because that person needs to have the same values plan, [01:32:10] life plan to some extent as you because you’re going to grow and evolve [01:32:15] together. Um, and I suppose it’s like any good relationship, you need to grow and evolve together at [01:32:20] the same time, at the same pace, um, to stay on the same page. So like when [01:32:25] I first met Ed Ed’s from Cardiff or outside Cardiff. He’d trained [01:32:30] in Cardiff and he came over to Ireland before he did. He’s [01:32:35] actually an interesting, you know, case study in himself. He, he did he kind of did general dentistry [01:32:40] and wanted out a few strings to his bow. And he ended up doing the Royal College Implant program and [01:32:45] started placing some implants. Then he got to the surgeries placing implants. He just felt he didn’t know enough. [01:32:50] You know, his grafting techniques weren’t good enough. And he decided, actually, that’s his look, I’ve I [01:32:55] enjoy implants, I’ve got into this and I really just don’t feel I know enough. I really want to, you know, really [01:33:00] keep coming across barriers. I want to know more. And I end up going back to do perio. Um, and our program [01:33:05] here would be very strong on the implant side as well. So he ended up in that he worked for about [01:33:10] maybe 6 or 7 years in practice before doing it. So he did kind of more orthodox [01:33:15] route. And therefore I love saying he’s a little bit older than me.

Rory Boyd: And, uh, so [01:33:20] he basically from when we started, when he first came to came to college, I knew [01:33:25] we got on really well. We had very similar values, very similar outlooks on dentistry and careers and personally and [01:33:30] whenever I by four years, maybe three years after [01:33:35] I was in the practice when I bought in, there was a periodontist there. Um, at the time he had [01:33:40] his own separate business, but in the same building. So he then came to me and asked and said, look, [01:33:45] Rory, do you know anyone that you think would be good and who you. Because I don’t want to sell to [01:33:50] somebody you don’t want to work with because you’re going to be, you know, inevitably you’re going to be working with them to some, to [01:33:55] some level. Now, you could easily separate the business out and it could be separate. But the ideal plan would [01:34:00] be to have someone and they partner up and you join forces. And um, and at the time Ed was qualifying and [01:34:05] it was the perfect it just again, it’s just similar to my own story. Very lucky. Right place, right time. Um, [01:34:10] and was surrounded by the right people. Um, and I then, you know, said [01:34:15] to Doctor Cork and said, look, I’d love, um, you to discuss this with Ed. And, you know, thankfully [01:34:20] they worked, worked, worked it all out between themselves. And he started work shortly [01:34:25] after and yeah, since then. So when we first started, it was just the two of us. And then [01:34:30] we added, uh, friend of ours and Endodontist Doctor Craven started and [01:34:35] then I took over. Um, we.

Payman Langroudi: Had as a partner.

Rory Boyd: Associate. And [01:34:40] then I added, uh, we, I bought a radiology referral business [01:34:45] out of that to it. And then we added two more periodontists. We [01:34:50] also have an oral surgeon three days a week, and we are starting, [01:34:55] um, hopefully in the next month or two, a new prosthodontist. So we’re kind of [01:35:00] grown a little in the last three years.

Payman Langroudi: So, you know, you said, um, someone [01:35:05] going into partnership with someone who’s got the same basic values as you. I totally agree [01:35:10] with that. But but I’d add on to that. Someone with opposite skill sets. [01:35:15]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so you said you don’t like the. Air [01:35:20] part. You don’t like the practice management side does does [01:35:25] Ed?

Rory Boyd: Yeah. He certainly he certainly better than I am. Um, I’m [01:35:30] lucky enough that I my father is still effectively my financial director, which [01:35:35] was to be honest, I couldn’t have done it otherwise because, you know, I [01:35:40] took over a practice at the time, I think under my estimate, maybe ten staff [01:35:45] between nurses and receptionists, a couple of hygienists and stuff. And, you know, just [01:35:50] even just just even knowing how to do payroll or knowing how to [01:35:55] yeah, appropriately financial forecast and what have you. And thankfully, my father’s [01:36:00] background was in corporate banking, so he had a rough idea of how to [01:36:05] run a small business. So he and so from a business point of view, my dad and still does, [01:36:10] which I’m so grateful and happy for, uh, that takes a lot of stress [01:36:15] out of my, my life. But yeah, Ed’s definitely a little bit better on the old admin and the HR front. [01:36:20] But the other thing is we run a really open house, and it’s one of the things if anybody [01:36:25] was starting a practice, you’ve got to make that decision early. How big are you planning to try and get? Because [01:36:30] we’re we’re probably at max. I think at this point I don’t think we want to look, if [01:36:35] we wanted to grow any bigger, we’d need to start building more surgeries. So we definitely aren’t doing that any time soon. But [01:36:40] but what I mean by that is, is that we can man manage our staff, whereas when you get big [01:36:45] enough that you have a mid, you need to employ mid-level management. You become [01:36:50] separated from the HR aspect, which is great, but you also separate yourself from control. [01:36:55]

Rory Boyd: So you’ve got to make a decision on how big am I trying to go, and [01:37:00] am I going to get to a stage where I’ve got middle management like say, HR staff or, you know, clinical [01:37:05] directors or whatever we’re going to, you know, call them practice managers, whereas [01:37:10] we actually run a very open house. We have a we have a very, very, very loyal and beautiful [01:37:15] team that we work with with regards to their so giving of their time and of their expertise. [01:37:20] And we work very much like a family. And that if you know, if a nurse has any issues, whether it be in work [01:37:25] or outside of work, we have open door policy. It’s come in and chat to us. And and from an HR point [01:37:30] of view, that’s how we manage it. Now that can’t be the same for everybody. And you need to have a very specific team [01:37:35] that that will fit that ethos or that ethic. And everyone needs [01:37:40] to to pull in the same direction because that becomes an issue. If you do have issues with HR, because when you when [01:37:45] you when you work so closely on an open door policy that can either be taken advantage of or, [01:37:50] you know, it can run into trouble if there are problems. So it’s a fine line. But that’s how we run our house and we’re [01:37:55] just happy. You know, people talk about happy wife, happy life, we’re happy house happy life. And we and [01:38:00] we call the practice a house. But I agree with you.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting. I agree with.

Rory Boyd: You. The skill set. [01:38:05] You want somebody who’s got a complementing skill set to yours.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but but [01:38:10] what I was going to say was what I was going to say. Like it could happen. You’re very young. Yeah, you [01:38:15] really are. It could happen that some private equity guy comes to you and says, [01:38:20] let’s open 30 of these in all over the world for the sake of the argument. [01:38:25] Yeah. And, you know, when you balance up what you’re going to do next in your life. [01:38:30] Yeah, I look back to times when we were, I don’t know, 12 people, 14 people, [01:38:35] some of the happiest times in my career. Yeah. [01:38:40] You know, as, as in enlightened. Yeah. And okay. [01:38:45] At that time, we just weren’t making much money. So it just didn’t. That was the problem with the [01:38:50] situation. But because it was a small team, they were happy times because we understood [01:38:55] everyone in the thing. Now, if you were making enough money to do the things you want to do, your hobbies, [01:39:00] you know, whatever, whatever you want to do with your life, it should. We need to normalise the question [01:39:05] of everyone doesn’t have to open 100 practices or, you know, like making [01:39:10] one place perfect is as beautiful a thing as [01:39:15] 50 or 100, you know what I mean? It’s we need to normalise that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But these these days, [01:39:20] these days everyone’s big time.

Rory Boyd: And you know, if you look, I suppose. [01:39:25] Look, we’re a specialist practice referral centre. Our are our prices [01:39:30] might be increased or our margins might be slightly higher, but it’s making [01:39:35] fine if you want to own 30 or 40 practices and, you know, get into [01:39:40] the corporate side of things, go for it. But at that point, for me, you’re a businessman. My life [01:39:45] and my career life revolves around treating patients and teaching dentists. That’s that’s [01:39:50] that when it comes down to it, that’s what I do. I treat patients, and if I’m not treating patients, I’m teaching. [01:39:55] And those are what define me. And when those define you and you’re good [01:40:00] at them, I’ve never had to worry too much about the, you know, the revenue lines [01:40:05] or the, you know, the you know, they kind of sort themselves out. So for [01:40:10] my again, advice, if I was talking to a younger dentist and somebody said, oh yeah, but I want to, I want to [01:40:15] start I want 40 practices. Well, that’s fine if you want to. And if that’s chasing, if you enjoy business, that’s that’s great. [01:40:20] If you are trying to chase money, then that’s not [01:40:25] I don’t think that’s the best way to do it. I think the best way to, to, to get renumeration [01:40:30] is become brilliant at something. And when you’re brilliant like it’s, [01:40:35] there’s I’m sure somebody else used this analogy because it’s quite famous and it was [01:40:40] a Alan Watts was the I think I heard it off him and it was when [01:40:45] a student came to him and said, look, what am I going to do? And he said, well, that’s not a question for me.

Rory Boyd: It’s a question for you. What do you want [01:40:50] to do? What do you want? Because if you become brilliant at something, you don’t have to worry [01:40:55] about the revenue lines or the, you know, the financial side of it because somebody is willing to pay for pay for [01:41:00] those services. If you’re brilliant at it, the only reason you become brilliant at it is because you love it. And therefore, if you’re [01:41:05] trying to work out, do I want a massive practice? Do I want small practice? Work out what bit you like. If you like the [01:41:10] business side of things and you want to, you know, you think you’ve got acumen in that and you want to, [01:41:15] you want to get good and you get you get the buzz out of growing a business and being a successful [01:41:20] business, then fine. And if you don’t get the same buzz out of dentistry, that’s no problem. Go that way 100% and [01:41:25] and go for it. And I’ve respect for that. [01:41:30] But from our point of view, our, our main goal is to to provide the highest quality of care, full [01:41:35] stop. So our pursuit of perfection, because no one can ever get perfect, you can get [01:41:40] close. And it’s how close you can get is how good you are. And that would be what our mantra is. And [01:41:45] therefore if you’ve a, you know, if you do things the right way, then you end up in [01:41:50] our position where we’ve multiple people working. Everybody’s pretty much got a six month waiting list, if not [01:41:55] longer.

Payman Langroudi: Well, so give me a, give me give.

Payman Langroudi: Me some of the headlines. So how many how many [01:42:00] people work overall in the place.

Rory Boyd: Um, we have we’ve got three. [01:42:05] Perio one seemed to be two pros and oral surgery. So seven dentists, [01:42:10] two hygienists. So that’s nine. And then auxiliary staff we’ve 123456. [01:42:15] That’s called seven.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:42:20] can I can see you’re not in charge of payroll. Yeah I’m not sure how [01:42:25] many people we pay.

Rory Boyd: Uh, something along those lines. Um, but we’ve seven [01:42:30] operating dentists.

Payman Langroudi: Everyone is busy. Six months.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Pretty much.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [01:42:35] crazy.

Payman Langroudi: Something in that.

Rory Boyd: Region, I’d say. Yeah, I mean, certainly. And those little, little lighter. But that [01:42:40] needs to be because I don’t think you’re gonna wait in pain for six months. Um, but certainly [01:42:45] from a sort of pariah on my side, it would certainly be, you know, for new patient exam would be in that region. [01:42:50] It’s one of the reasons we’re trying to bring on another prosthodontist.

Payman Langroudi: You could put your price [01:42:55] up, do you?

Rory Boyd: Uh, no, I think we’re we’re I still struggle with charging big [01:43:00] money, so I’m keeping that.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, well, I don’t know if that’s the case.

Payman Langroudi: But. So. [01:43:05]

Payman Langroudi: So hold on. Let’s get let’s get down to the reason why that is. I mean, okay, so there was a legacy [01:43:10] from what’s his name, Doctor Davis. Who? The original [01:43:15] guy. But but your customer then is the referring dentist, is that [01:43:20] right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And I think.

Payman Langroudi: Is that the way you look at it?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah.

Rory Boyd: I mean, if you if you look at it from a commercial point of [01:43:25] view, my clients are other dentists. And look, I think [01:43:30] if you’re building a referral practice, you need to understand that. But the other thing is, is just [01:43:35] I think being. Yeah. Look, Ed and I both took on, you know, existing practices [01:43:40] that were highly respected. So much so that whenever we took [01:43:45] over the practice, there was always going to be a letter from that dentist saying please keep referring here and thankfully [01:43:50] touch wood. I think probably 90% of the already [01:43:55] referring dentists have have maintained. But you’ve got to also realise that if that [01:44:00] dentist, when you’ve taken over is of any age, then the ones that refer to him are probably of an age. [01:44:05] So they’re not, they’re not going to be practising forever. So you need to, you know, it’s the same way as you know, a general [01:44:10] practice needs to turn over patients because you have patients that, um, are, you know, your elderly patients aren’t going to be your patients [01:44:15] forever, unfortunately. And it’s the same referring dentists. They retire. So [01:44:20] and I, I suppose would have always had a good relationship within the dental community with socially [01:44:25] and um, and then within the hospital. And it’s one of actually one of the advantages, I think, of training in your hometown [01:44:30] or your home time, but the time that you plan to live in, a lot of people will say, well, go away [01:44:35] and whatever.

Rory Boyd: But actually when you train, you know, when Dublin’s a small enough place, when you train [01:44:40] here, you start meeting a lot of other dentists and you start building your dental network, unbeknown to you. But at the [01:44:45] time, at the time, but certainly afterwards, you start to appreciate the the dinners out and the drinks out [01:44:50] that you had with certain dentists, you know, 5 or 6 years ago. And so you end up developing a dental network [01:44:55] edge also from a bit of a dental family. His wife’s a dentist, his father in law [01:45:00] was a very well known dentist. He retired last year, and so he would have had a good connection with a group [01:45:05] of, of, of general dentists or referring dentists in that vicinity. But we [01:45:10] you know, the other thing is still a surprise is you get patients from I had patients from Geneva [01:45:15] this year. I had patients, you know, plenty of patients from London that have come across my somebody [01:45:20] has given them my name from somewhere. I’ve patients who’ve come over from the States.

Rory Boyd: So you’d [01:45:25] still be shocked sometimes. But don’t get me wrong, the majority of them are relative within from Ireland and within dentists. We know. [01:45:30] But the other thing, again, for anybody who is looking at setting up a referral practice, [01:45:35] you don’t need that many referrals. You know, if you have, [01:45:40] you know, if you have 5 or 6 really good general [01:45:45] practitioners that send you really good high quality referrals, you know, that have had all the, you [01:45:50] know, disease cessation completed before they get to you, that I’m not saying they have to have the plan, the care side, [01:45:55] but, you know, dealt with the basic stuff. So when they come to you, they’re kind of ready to go. [01:46:00] If you get a couple of those a month from 5 or 6, that is a lot of work. And [01:46:05] so, you know, especially from a process side, and if you’re doing more big, bigger cases, [01:46:10] you don’t actually need a huge. And to any one of [01:46:15] my referrals who are listening, thank you very much. And uh, and don’t think of going anywhere else. [01:46:20] I’m not saying we’ve got too many and, uh, you need any urgent cases. Please send me an urgent and I [01:46:25] will see them next week. No problem.

Payman Langroudi: But.

Rory Boyd: But you don’t actually need a huge referral base. [01:46:30] You need 5 or 6 that are. Send it and then you’ll always have. I think I probably have about 40 or 50 on [01:46:35] my list that I send, you know, wine to at Christmas or whatever. But I think, you know, if you look at the, you know, [01:46:40] you’ve 4 or 5 that are sending you a lot of work and that that keeps that keeps the [01:46:45] list very, very busy. And it’s the same with perio, you know, again, if you’re doing their implant [01:46:50] cases and stuff, he’s got probably a faster turnaround. You know, if it’s soft tissue grafts or implants they’re a little bit quicker. Maybe, [01:46:55] you know, if I have to fill my three have I’m seeing them for six months, 12 months. If it’s if it’s, you know, implants [01:47:00] included, they’re going to be with me for 2 or 3 years. If there’s ortho included, it’s going to be longer. So I have probably [01:47:05] my patients are longer and see them more often. But yeah, I think it’s the same. I think last [01:47:10] month I saw we really we really new referrals last month as a practice and [01:47:15] 80 new referrals a month is a lot of work.

Payman Langroudi: So a lot of work.

Rory Boyd: You know, 8080 [01:47:20] referrals is going to increase our waiting list. Um, and that’s great. And that’s that’s the whole practice. That’s all. That’s [01:47:25] that’s a solid. But you know, if you saw 80 new patients that need some sort of complex work done, [01:47:30] that’s, that’s you’re good. So that’s kind of how that but again, it’s not [01:47:35] it I think look, I’m obviously involved heavily with the Irish Dental Association have been a, you know, president this [01:47:40] year. But I’ve been president of my local area for uh, and starting on the, on the, you know, the branch area [01:47:45] for probably six years I’ve been involved in, you know, Irish Dental Association committees. [01:47:50] I’ve been involved with education here. And being kind of omnipresent, [01:47:55] I suppose, keeps you in the forefront of people’s minds when they’re, uh, thinking of referrals. But [01:48:00] but yeah, I really do think it’s just through social. Um, look, obviously you’ve got to be half decent [01:48:05] at what you do. We use social media marginally to put that out there. And I think your reputation [01:48:10] is, is where that build up. Yeah. And, [01:48:15] you know, I think both of us have the put out the same similar image of we are [01:48:20] in the pursuit of perfection. That’s how close we can get to that. And if you’re patient and you’re, you’re, you’re you’re referring [01:48:25] dentist knows and understands. That’s the philosophy. Well then you can’t go too far, too far [01:48:30] wrong.

Payman Langroudi: I’m going to ask you some unfair questions now. It’s like little aha [01:48:35] moment. Give me an aha moment in cross. [01:48:40] Like something. Something that untangled cross for you.

Rory Boyd: Understanding [01:48:45] that every patient is just a complete denture.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:48:50] look. Go on, expand on that quickly.

Rory Boyd: When people find occlusion difficult [01:48:55] or, you know, don’t understand occlusion or [01:49:00] there’s too many different philosophies and you, Pinkman, Skyler or your mythologist or whatever [01:49:05] kind of struggle you just think back to your complete denture training. [01:49:10] And if you can learn occlusion that that you can create for complete dentures. [01:49:15] And I’m not saying we need to make, you know, bilateral balance and whatever, we can use canine guidance to get [01:49:20] around that. But if you just think that that from the complete denture, is everything [01:49:25] okay. Right.

Payman Langroudi: And we all know how they come together. Right?

Payman Langroudi: But if you go [01:49:30] from.

Rory Boyd: Let’s keep it small, let’s talk about smile design. That’s many, many smile makeover. When [01:49:35] you set the front set of teeth in a complete denture, that is what you’re trying to achieve. And your mini smile makeover. Okay, [01:49:40] so from an aesthetic smile design, if you look at all of the smile design, DSD, DSD, [01:49:45] 3D, whatever smile design system you want, all of that literature [01:49:50] came from complete dentures. Okay, you look at your setup, your smile frame smile, [01:49:55] your canine position, your tooth proportions that all came from complete dentures. Then [01:50:00] you go. Then you go. One step. Let’s let’s go slightly bigger. Let’s talk about a [01:50:05] full arch or kind of a full arch. Restoration of occlusion. The occlusal planes on a complete [01:50:10] denture that set the maxillary occlusal plane as what you would use the same thing. You know, the [01:50:15] contact points, the premolars, the rotation of, you know, when you look at your maxillary occlusal plane, that, um, [01:50:20] buccal cusp of the four touches the plane, both cusps of the five mes, your palatal [01:50:25] teeth rotation, right? So that that all comes from complete dentures. And then when we get to occlusion, [01:50:30] the setup is slightly different okay. Because we want a little bit of freedom and centric. And we [01:50:35] want to, you know, we want a little bit of space in the anterior. We don’t want to cause too much. We’re actually reverse anterior guidance. But [01:50:40] when we actually look at even just like MIP contacts and [01:50:45] we’re looking at assessment of excursive contacts, okay. For the first two millimetres of movement, the [01:50:50] understanding of that. And if you throw in an equilibrated Michigan [01:50:55] splint, because that teaches you everything you basically need to do with dynamic occlusion. In my opinion, those [01:51:00] two removable devices basically explain 90% of dentistry to me.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:51:05] know that might be a slightly obscure.

Rory Boyd: So when people say, oh, I hate [01:51:10] complete dentures, I’m like, well, you must be a terrible dentist, because in my life I don’t make [01:51:15] that. I still make quite a lot of complete dentures. But like every patient I see, [01:51:20] especially like film rehab or aesthetic setup, I’m looking at them like a complete denture [01:51:25] case and how I would do it in a complete denture. And then that. That’s so.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:51:30] so interesting because I was asking someone, what would you take out of the dental course to put in all this digital stuff? And he [01:51:35] was saying, complete dentures, but.

Payman Langroudi: Not the not that you.

Rory Boyd: Might ever do any. Okay. And like.

Payman Langroudi: No, [01:51:40] but what.

Payman Langroudi: You’re saying now.

Payman Langroudi: Puts.

Payman Langroudi: That on its head.

Payman Langroudi: The teaching of the complete denture.

Rory Boyd: Isn’t [01:51:45] just okay, right. Impression making fine. Border moulding [01:51:50] fine. Right. So that okay, I still love that, but that’s put that aside. But [01:51:55] everything else in this complete denture program to set up, you know, wax rim set up understanding maxillary [01:52:00] plains with regards to, you know, Fox’s playing guide and understanding how the trigger lines and and [01:52:05] you know Frankfurt planes and inter papillary lines. That is that’s the anterior [01:52:10] design work to set up anterior design work using the articulator occlusion. [01:52:15] So in a complete denture course, I don’t care if you never do a complete denture in your life, but [01:52:20] that actually that course will teach you more on global dentistry [01:52:25] theory than anything else you’ll do in dental school. So I so for me, [01:52:30] I have joy and love of making good complete dentures. I still think it’s [01:52:35] a beautiful art. And, you know, cross that over with a bit of digital on some of [01:52:40] it. And that’s a big thing for me. But the actually the fundamentals [01:52:45] of complete dentures is where you where you learn everything. And the biggest problem with [01:52:50] digital is it does give people the false ability to skip [01:52:55] corners and digital. You can get away with stuff [01:53:00] doing it a little bit, kind of off the cuff without any major [01:53:05] understanding. You probably get away with it seven out of ten times, but the three times it’ll get you, it’ll bite you.

Rory Boyd: So [01:53:10] and it’s the same with like technician, you start working with a technician that never did [01:53:15] the basics. They understandings of occlusion and the understanding that with digital [01:53:20] they’re just going to make it worse. Um, so the fun and that’s my one of my biggest worries [01:53:25] for actually dental technicians is the classic teaching of, you know, waxing a frog or crying the post [01:53:30] ceramic solid or like the love of the old, you know, the traditional technician ways. But [01:53:35] those concepts with regards to say, occlusion and like, you know, margination [01:53:40] why you’re doing it, why why you’re doing that and the traditional FMS to get, you know, so you actually [01:53:45] think that, you know, the marginal gap is the is the be all and end all to get that done. Like why you should be hand [01:53:50] finishing, um, after milling to make sure that that that little sometimes you get a [01:53:55] zirconia crown back. It’s got that little lip. Well that’s there because the machine over milled better because didn’t want it [01:54:00] thin enough because of a chip that’s going to be hand finished back, you know. So so those understandings of the [01:54:05] kind of minutiae only come from the classic training. I haven’t seen a, you know, a digital [01:54:10] program that will still cover those. So, yeah, that’s kind of it. That was an aha moment for me, as the complete [01:54:15] denture is basically what.

Payman Langroudi: A brilliant, brilliant be all and end all.

Payman Langroudi: What about in [01:54:20] your aha moment regarding um, you know, like you said, your, um, [01:54:25] part of the Metropolitan branch and then and then [01:54:30] and then becoming president, like, like, you know, I’m, I’m the opposite. I’m like an outsider cat, [01:54:35] like, I don’t I don’t get myself involved in associations and.

Payman Langroudi: Well. [01:54:40]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I mean, you said you said you said your dad was involved and stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:54:45] I did.

Payman Langroudi: That rub off.

Rory Boyd: Yeah. I suppose dad’s been involved in, you know, lots of different manly [01:54:50] sporting outside of career, but on different committees and, and clubs and charity [01:54:55] fundraising, um associations. And I get, I get a I [01:55:00] suppose it’s very different when you move out of the clinical practice. Let’s move out of the business sense. It’s [01:55:05] well, what else can dentistry give you? Right. So financial renumeration right. That’s that’s done. [01:55:10] Right. And and then you get super success and not kind [01:55:15] of a great feedback from patients. It makes you feel brilliant about yourself and and treating [01:55:20] patients as my sole driver. And that’s I really enjoy that interaction. But what does what does [01:55:25] the career of dentistry give you outside of your your your practice? Okay. [01:55:30] So we’re part of a profession that has very like minded people and a very big [01:55:35] network group. We have 3200 dentists in Ireland. I’m sure the UK has stratospherically [01:55:40] more than that, and we’re part of a community that all are relatively like minded people, and [01:55:45] the only thing that actually brings those together are the associations, whether it be BCD [01:55:50] or BDA or whatever. And I do get a lot [01:55:55] of enjoyment in the networking side. And it’s funny like, yeah, like I’m president [01:56:00] now. I’m the youngest ever president. There’s been and it’s a new [01:56:05] process for me because usually the presidents and there’s no disrespect to anyone that’s [01:56:10] come before me, but either towards the end of their career or then they have the ability to, you know, [01:56:15] maybe take a day off a week to give to the idea, which I can.

Rory Boyd: And when I was asked, it was very much [01:56:20] on the understanding that this might be a slightly different. I’m going to give everything I have to it, but [01:56:25] I’m not going to have the same ability for the, you know, the day to day running time commitments. So, [01:56:30] you know, simple things. I moved all the management committee meetings to the evenings, and we moved a lot of the [01:56:35] the kind of the day to day running stuff to the evenings or weekends, which, you know, again, thank you very much to [01:56:40] the team over there that we’re happy to have flexible working hours like that because we have I [01:56:45] think it’s nine staff and, you know, that work very, very hard behind the scenes to to to keep the association [01:56:50] on track for what we want to do with it. But I think the aha moment, because I [01:56:55] joined the EDA, because I enjoyed the CPD aspect, the networking aspect and socialising [01:57:00] aspect within the profession and the community, I suppose, of that. You know, I [01:57:05] look at our profession as, as a community, but the aha moment was [01:57:10] uh, my first. So for those, the committee is the joint Health committee and [01:57:15] government, obviously the joint Health Committee in government. Uh, it was the week after actually, the conference where [01:57:20] I met you. And when I was sitting in the government chambers with [01:57:25] my name on the the tab in front and, uh, Gerry Cleary [01:57:30] to bring that full circle, he was the one that helped me get set up in practice, was also [01:57:35] sitting in front of me as the chair of the Dental council.

Rory Boyd: I was like, okay, now we’re going [01:57:40] to it now, now, now we’re together. So myself and Gerry and a three other, uh, [01:57:45] our CEO and our, uh, president elect and our one of our past presidents were also there to lobby government [01:57:50] on a whole raft of, uh, different issues, but mainly in, around, you know, paediatric [01:57:55] care and our public services for, for, for children. That was like, yeah, that was an aha [01:58:00] moment of like, I’m not in government. I’m actually making a difference. Or I certainly feel like I’m making a [01:58:05] difference if government are listening anyway, as you feel like I’m making a difference to not only [01:58:10] your dental community, but I’m now making a difference to my general community. And I wouldn’t [01:58:15] have been, you know, if anybody knows me that well, I wouldn’t have been massively politically active. You know, I [01:58:20] I’d be fairly. Yeah. I wouldn’t, you know, I’d be would be fairly soft [01:58:25] individual. I would probably be the last person that some people would think it would be lobbying government for various different [01:58:30] areas. But and I, before I went in didn’t think that I was going to be, [01:58:35] you know, massively boisterous. But once you get in there and it’s like, okay, let’s strap the [01:58:40] strap the armour on here and let’s go to war, because this is where we’re actually this is this is the one room [01:58:45] I can actually make a significant difference in.

Rory Boyd: And I’d never done that before, and I’d never been [01:58:50] in that had that experience or had that. And we had four hours in that chamber [01:58:55] fighting for whether it be right to the profession or right to, for the patient. And [01:59:00] I never really done that type of work before. Um, it’s very different to my, [01:59:05] my 9 to 5. I mean, I don’t I don’t treat that many children to start with. Um, but [01:59:10] but yeah, I find that fascinating and that was not. And I was like, that’s this is why you do this. Um, this is why [01:59:15] you get involved with this, and you sit on committees and, yeah, there’s a lot of work involved and there’s lots of time given up [01:59:20] for it. But one is that the dental profession is a community. Um, and I like I like giving [01:59:25] back to that. But now that I have, I have the privilege to have the position to [01:59:30] to fight for patient rights to, uh, that’s, that was the aha moment for that. So it’s something [01:59:35] that I hope we’ll get the chance to do a number of times in my, uh, in my time. Under this year. [01:59:40] And thankfully there’s there’s been good responses to it and we’re starting to see some change. [01:59:45] So that makes it feel feel all the better.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing, man. Amazing. We’ve [01:59:50] come to the end of our time. We always end it with the same questions. [01:59:55] Fantasy dinner party. Three [02:00:00] guests, dead or alive. Who would you have?

Rory Boyd: So when you [02:00:05] sent this to me. I was like, oh God, because I do, I do quite a lot of dinner parties. Uh. [02:00:10]

Payman Langroudi: So you could you could cook.

Rory Boyd: Uh, so yeah, I would be known for the seven course [02:00:15] tasting menu with wine pairings on a relatively regular basis. So and I kind of I [02:00:20] generally invite different people. So I kind of know what works, what characters [02:00:25] work together and what somewhat don’t. But yeah, tricky one I think [02:00:30] like I’ll keep it on a theme and as the podcast is called Dental Leaders, I will [02:00:35] kind of think of who has influenced me in leadership. And [02:00:40] I think, again, you’ll hear my sporting background now. So I think the first one I’d pick is Alex Ferguson. [02:00:45] I’m sure everybody knows who he is or Sir Alex Ferguson, I should say. And I think [02:00:50] in particular with regards to characteristics of why I think he was such a good leader was his man management skills [02:00:55] and his ability to his ability to just be able to get the best out [02:01:00] of the team members that that he works with and have a you know, I don’t know if you’re quite an open door policy, [02:01:05] but certainly, you know, you look at that group that, you know, that he man [02:01:10] managed through throughout their careers that had all different characters, different problems, different issues, and [02:01:15] was able to get the best out of whoever was on the pitch.

Rory Boyd: So I think yeah. So I think from, from [02:01:20] from somebody I find very impressive. I go with that. I then [02:01:25] follow up with Richie McCaw, probably the greatest All Blacks captain, um, [02:01:30] of all time. Somebody I got the privilege of meeting when I was in Christchurch. And I just [02:01:35] find he’s just an awesome human being. Um, his ability to lead by example and [02:01:40] just his attention to detail is pursued a perfection with maybe not [02:01:45] ever getting there, I think. Yeah. All all in all, just a brilliant, brilliant [02:01:50] human being. Um. And then I [02:01:55] was actually sitting before this, and I was sitting with my girlfriend and I said, what am I going? I’m kind of, you know, Leaders. And I was thinking [02:02:00] of, you know, you know, I was thinking of when I keep it, you know, I need I have no females [02:02:05] in there. So, you know, I need to keep it quality based. And then I was thinking of Northern Irish. [02:02:10] Can I get some, you know, trying to make it, you know. It’s [02:02:15] really important. Um, and I was thinking of Mary Peters and, you know, the [02:02:20] Olympian and she’s. But actually, I’ve gone for Taylor Swift. Um. Uh, [02:02:25] one because she’d be brilliant after.

Payman Langroudi: Dinner on [02:02:30] song.

Rory Boyd: Also because I listen to a hell [02:02:35] of a lot of music and I really look up to her. So, yeah, as sad as it is, I wanted to make it kind of, you [02:02:40] know, political and yeah, make a statement with it. But actually, I just I’d love to have dinner with Taylor Swift. [02:02:45] That’s my third.

Payman Langroudi: Alex and Richie and Taylor [02:02:50] Swift. It’s an interesting combination.

Payman Langroudi: That’s good. That’s real good that.

Payman Langroudi: The [02:02:55] final question. Is a deathbed question difficult with someone so young? But [02:03:00] let’s imagine years and years and years from now on your deathbed, surrounded by [02:03:05] your friends and family, loved ones, anyone who’s important to you. With [02:03:10] three pieces of advice. Yeah. What would you.

Payman Langroudi: Say?

Rory Boyd: I’ve been lucky enough [02:03:15] to have great mentors throughout my career, though. It’s short, you know, and appreciate that. I’ve [02:03:20] done some things faster than significant, a lot of most of others, but [02:03:25] I’ve only been able to do that because I’ve had the best mentors and the people around [02:03:30] me, whether it be through dental school, whether it be through my professional, [02:03:35] you know, post dental school career, post graduate, post dental school, I would have the I [02:03:40] have to say I the reason I have what I have or I’ve achieved what I’ve achieved. Nothing. You know, [02:03:45] something to do with me, but it’s mainly to do with the people who’ve been around me. And from an early age, [02:03:50] my dad had always said to me, the key to success in life is to surround yourself by the [02:03:55] best team, okay? And that team may change. Unfortunately, you’ll be the only consistent [02:04:00] member of that team. But throughout your life, whether it be school life, whether it be university life, whether [02:04:05] it be family life, whether it be professional career life, whether it be anything outside of that surrounding [02:04:10] yourself. And it’s not, you know, I need if you’re the smartest person in the room, you’re in the wrong place. It’s [02:04:15] not about that. It’s about having a team of people [02:04:20] who have shared values and respect for what you do [02:04:25] and for and for you to what they do.

Rory Boyd: So it’s a mutually beneficial relationship. [02:04:30] So my first best piece of advice is from my dad. Surround yourself with the best team. And I’ve always [02:04:35] and that includes mentors. And I think that’s just like if you’re trying to do anything [02:04:40] within your career that maybe in any way somewhat different, or is to have [02:04:45] mentors, that you just trust everything they say, and if they tell you to jump, you [02:04:50] say, hi, hi, what do I need to do? How do I get there? And I’ve been so lucky to have a [02:04:55] different stages along my career. People, um, some consistent, but people who that [02:05:00] have been able to be so giving to me of their time and everything I have [02:05:05] is due to what they’ve given me. So I’ve just huge appreciation for that. Somebody [02:05:10] my first one. Surround yourself by the best team possible. My second one be [02:05:15] is I’m not actually sure where I heard this. I’m not going to try and say that I coined it, but [02:05:20] I heard it somewhere. But enjoy the journey, not the destination. You know, we [02:05:25] spend our lives, especially in dental school. And again, I spend a lot of time with students and stuff. And [02:05:30] it’s always they’re always thinking about what the next hurdle is or the next thing they’re not enjoying [02:05:35] the now or being present with it.

Rory Boyd: And yeah, don’t get me wrong, there’s some parts of dental school that aren’t that enjoyable. But if you [02:05:40] know everyone, there’s a point in life. And again, it sounds like [02:05:45] I’m 65 there, but where you hit and you go, this is it. And you know, I probably hit [02:05:50] that. I’d say probably a year three of, um, of opening the practice of this is it as [02:05:55] in, I’m going to do the same thing ish. For the next, however long. At [02:06:00] that stage I was 32, so I was probably thinking I would be retired by 50 at that point. [02:06:05] Uh, I know, I know, I’ll be working till I’m 70. Um, but [02:06:10] you go, this is what I’m going to do every day or every, you know, five days [02:06:15] a week. For the next probably 35 years. Realistically, right now [02:06:20] it hits a point. So if you don’t enjoy that journey, you’re going to be one of those people. You turn around when they’re 55 [02:06:25] and go, oh my God, that’s it. So basically you need [02:06:30] to make sure that you’re joining it along the way. Just achieving the the degree at the end of dental school, achieving [02:06:35] the buying of the practice, achieving of the of next year’s management committee. When [02:06:40] we go through turnover and the balance sheet and, and you know, having [02:06:45] all these targets that are far away thinking the grass is going to be greener when I get there, [02:06:50] and then you get there and you realise actually the grass was greener on the way up, there’s this doesn’t, you know, [02:06:55] you can get to the end and go, yeah, I made, you know, £50 million [02:07:00] this year.

Rory Boyd: It doesn’t get any better. Right. So it doesn’t matter what that is. [02:07:05] You’ve got to enjoy getting there. And when you and if you’re somebody that thinks they’ll enjoy [02:07:10] it when they get to whatever this place may be, they’ll be horribly disappointed when they get [02:07:15] there. I mean, I kind of, you know, I had that aspiration at points when, you know, you went through your [02:07:20] undergrad and you’re like, I just need to get the post-grad and I get the post-grad, and I get out now by the practice and everything will just turn into [02:07:25] like, rainbows and butterflies, and there’ll be unicorns running around, and it will [02:07:30] be the promised land. And I’d sure like Jesus. I’ve now taken on more than I probably had back there. [02:07:35] Right. And, you know, and different stresses and different drivers. And then you’ve got, you know, family [02:07:40] life kicks in and life is a constantly evolving. Again, [02:07:45] I’m 36, not 70.

Rory Boyd: But life is a constantly evolving journey. And [02:07:50] and you’ve got to enjoy the journey, not whatever you think you’re going because you probably won’t [02:07:55] ever end up there. So that would probably be, you know, that then blends into my [02:08:00] third one and we kind of talked a little bit about it earlier, but as have other stuff. Right, [02:08:05] because dentistry is the best career on the planet in my opinion. You can do [02:08:10] so many different things. You can work so many different are some people work two days a week, some [02:08:15] and have brilliant lives on that. Some people work seven days a week and it [02:08:20] gives you the flexibility when, when and touchwood. Hopefully family life does [02:08:25] happen for me with kids and stuff. It gives you that ability to, you know, at times work less, at [02:08:30] times work more. It’s such a flexible job. Um, it gives you massive satisfaction. [02:08:35] That’s not make any bones about it. The renumeration can be very [02:08:40] solid. That means you have no cares or worries around that. Um, or certainly fewer than others. [02:08:45] But it’s not the be all and end all. And it doesn’t. It shouldn’t take over [02:08:50] your life. It should accent it. And don’t get me wrong, I’m defined as a dentist. That’s that’s that’s [02:08:55] my definition. It’s my it’s my biggest hobby. Well, let’s say that I leave, I still [02:09:00] live, breathe, eat, sleep, drink it.

Rory Boyd: But I have 36 flights this year for a reason. I enjoy travel too, [02:09:05] and I enjoy cooking, I enjoy sport, I enjoy training, [02:09:10] I enjoy racing, whether it be half ironmans, whether it be half marathons, marathons, [02:09:15] whatever it may be, you have to have something outside of work that makes you [02:09:20] tick because otherwise burnout is only around the corner and you want to keep [02:09:25] your journey that you’re enjoying as long as possible. And so I think my third, you know, whatever way you title it, but [02:09:30] have other things because you want to leave or leave the office, when you leave the office, [02:09:35] you leave the office. It’s another privilege we have as dentists. Yes, of course, practice owners have bits and things to worry about, [02:09:40] but as a dentist solely, there ain’t much you can do when you’re sitting at [02:09:45] home. And that’s a that’s a that’s a lovely thing. You’re not a solicitor whose phones off. You know, the [02:09:50] eastern markets have popped up. If you’re in finance and you’re now going to start looking at them, or some [02:09:55] American clients phoning in the middle of the night, we don’t have that. So you’ve got to utilise that opportunity in that time for doing [02:10:00] other things. That would be my third.

Payman Langroudi: Very nice, buddy. I think you’ve come, my [02:10:05] one. You’ve become a hero of mine. It’s rare that someone younger than me [02:10:10] becomes a hero of mine. But I think you’ve become a hero of mine. Thanks, I like that.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [02:10:15] a first time for everything.

Payman Langroudi: Long may it.

Payman Langroudi: Continue. [02:10:20] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Continue.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you very much for having me on.

Payman Langroudi: But he’s seven years out is nothing. You [02:10:25] know, you’re still at the very beginning, and all the stuff you’re doing is super duper. Really, [02:10:30] really impressive. He really enjoyed that very much.

[VOICE]: This [02:10:35] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one [02:10:40] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [02:10:45] hosts. Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [02:10:50] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just [02:10:55] a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to [02:11:00] say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If [02:11:05] you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share [02:11:10] this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks. [02:11:15]

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

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