Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Doctor Marina Rohde onto the podcast. Marina [00:00:05] is a dentist who’s had kind of a blessed career. Um, going straight [00:00:10] into private cosmetic practice, straight out of it in some of the most [00:00:15] iconic practices in, in the country. Um, thanks for coming, Marina. [00:00:20] Thanks for.

Manrina Rhode: Having me.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a pleasure. Um, really, sometimes there’s a burning [00:00:25] question that I want to ask straight away. And if I don’t ask it straight away, then, um, [00:00:30] the whole podcast, I’m trying to get to that question and I’m on edge, so I just [00:00:35] want to go straight into the burning question and then and then we can go back and do the you can’t wait.

Manrina Rhode: To hear what you [00:00:40] would be burning to hear about me.

Payman Langroudi: For me, the, [00:00:45] you know, the veneer dentist, which which I mean, I know that’s not a very [00:00:50] nice way of putting it here, but but someone who does a lot of veneers, um, must [00:00:55] have seen loads of failures over the years, especially someone who’s been in them as long as [00:01:00] you. Um, so have you changed in a big way? What’s [00:01:05] the thing you’ve changed the most when you look at the way you do veneers now, compared to [00:01:10] maybe some of the ones that you’re seeing come back from 20 years, 20 odd years ago, you were doing them, right? [00:01:15]

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. It’s a constantly evolving process, and it’s one of those I think [00:01:20] it’s the most complex thing we do in dentistry, because there are so many things that can go wrong at so [00:01:25] many stages during that process. And not only that, you’re dealing typically with quite an emotional [00:01:30] individual who’s having, um, a procedure that they’ve opted to have rather than what’s [00:01:35] something that they need. So there’s a lot of different layers in that. Um, and throughout [00:01:40] my 22 years in clinical practice and 21 of them, the treatment [00:01:45] I’ve done most often is porcelain veneers. That’s what that’s what I will do every day. Um, there have been so many [00:01:50] things that have gone wrong, and every time one of those things goes wrong. Um, I think [00:01:55] I need to put systems in place to prevent this from happening again. And then my my systems evolve. [00:02:00] And that was part of my, my want to be an educator within dentistry Because. [00:02:05] Because I learned way too much from all the stress and all the dramas that happened along the way. [00:02:10] And I needed to share it with someone or as many people as possible, because far too many people give up [00:02:15] these procedures because of these things. So I guess what you want is the gritty. You know, this wouldn’t be a burning [00:02:20] question without the actual examples. Tell me the main.

Payman Langroudi: Difference, the main difference between the way you handle [00:02:25] a big case now, I think compared to, let’s say, 15 years ago. Yeah.

Manrina Rhode: Well, I mean, [00:02:30] it’s been an evolving process. When I started treating porcelain veneers. So I started [00:02:35] in 2003 after my vocational training year, and that used to do a mad amount at at London Salon [00:02:40] and have done since, um, we didn’t believe in minimally invasive dentistry. We didn’t [00:02:45] have any issues with with elective root canal treatments. Um, it wasn’t it wasn’t a thing [00:02:50] like you just said, saw the patient. You worked out what what design you needed to do to get them the treatment they wanted. [00:02:55] Pre alignment. Orthodontics wasn’t a thing. Dentists doing [00:03:00] dentists doing orthodontics wasn’t really a thing. You know, I went on one of the first Invisalign courses [00:03:05] in 2004, but it was one of the first. I think it started in 2002. And [00:03:10] there’s obviously so many other alignment systems. We used to use the Inman Aligner a lot and various other systems [00:03:15] along the way. So it was very commonplace to say to a patient, um, this is [00:03:20] this is the problem. You know, if you want straight teeth, I’m going to have to fill your canines, your, you [00:03:25] know, your your central. You’re going to have this many root canals. You can go and have them done with the endodontist before I [00:03:30] even start, so that we wouldn’t have stress and pain while we went through the procedure. Like I look back at that now and [00:03:35] think that’s completely different from the way we practice now.

Manrina Rhode: I don’t want to cut anyone’s teeth, you know, [00:03:40] I’m keeping it as minimal as I can. I’m encouraging everyone to have pre alignment, even the smallest bit of pre [00:03:45] alignment so that I don’t need to prep their teeth so that we don’t have sensitivity and we don’t have issues and people don’t end [00:03:50] up needing root canal. It’s a completely different way of thinking. Um so there was that. And then there’s also [00:03:55] um, gingival contouring. Um, I’ll routinely contour my, my patients gingival [00:04:00] and I always have done. But as part of the smile makeover process and [00:04:05] I don’t refer to periodontists, I like to control that myself and do it myself. And back in the day [00:04:10] when I used to do that, um, you know, the belief was that we could just take a [00:04:15] scalpel or take an electrosurgery or a laser or whatever we were using at the time, and just remove [00:04:20] gum and, um, we, we were invading biological width, but that the bone [00:04:25] would adapt to three millimetres, you know, where the biological width needed to be on average [00:04:30] in response to my treatment, and everything would be fine. There was no need to remove bone, you just remove that gum, [00:04:35] put a veneer on it and everything would be fine. And what was interesting about that, because I’ve got my own case studies [00:04:40] to show whether that works or not.

Manrina Rhode: Um, because that’s how we did things. Um, nine [00:04:45] out of ten and we did so many of them, nine out of ten of them were okay, but one out of ten of [00:04:50] them weren’t okay. And they would come back with big, swollen, red, angry gums. [00:04:55] Um, where the gum had started growing over their veneer and even one out of ten [00:05:00] was not good enough because patients having these elective treatments and spending all this money and now their [00:05:05] gums bleed every time they smile at someone, um, was a mess. And so, um, I did, [00:05:10] uh, did things that way probably until 2008. So for about five years and [00:05:15] then started seeing too many people coming back with issues and started realising I needed to learn conventional crown lengthening [00:05:20] surgery and then obviously evolved and did that. And that’s evolved now. Now I’ve got my water [00:05:25] lays, which I love. And so now, rather than lifting a flap and removing [00:05:30] bone and sewing the gum back down and having these red angry gums, um, [00:05:35] now I just take my laser laser off the gum, put my water laser under the gum, remove bone. There’s [00:05:40] no blood, there’s no stitches. There’s no downtime. They say you don’t even need anaesthetic. And it’s completely [00:05:45] changed the way. The way I practice.

Manrina Rhode: Um, the talk about the water laser. I mean, that’s been [00:05:50] just an amazing bit of kit. Um, removing veneers was always a bit of drama. You [00:05:55] know, inevitably you’d remove some tooth tissue during that process, or maybe create, uh, like [00:06:00] a groove in the tooth trying to get that, that veneer off. Whereas now with my water layers, I just laser [00:06:05] over the tooth, over the veneer, and the veneer just falls off whole in one piece, in one piece. It’s amazing. [00:06:10] I removed veneers for a patient last week. It’s the first time I’d done it this way. [00:06:15] Um, she had no prep veneers that she hated. And because there were no prep. I mean, you really do need [00:06:20] at least a gingival margin prep. Um, they were quite bulky at the gum margin, and she, she’d created [00:06:25] the, you know, these, these inflamed gingiva. She was really unhappy and she, these ledges. And so [00:06:30] she was like, I just want them off. I know they’re no prep. Just take them off. And I was like, I mean, I can’t confirm they’re [00:06:35] no prep, but if you want me to use my water laser and take them off for you, I’ll take them off. Um, and I just water glazed, all [00:06:40] covered ears off and underneath her smile just went back to what it was, uh, prior to having veneers.

Payman Langroudi: Did you did you go around [00:06:45] the margin? Yeah.

Manrina Rhode: You go. It’s a process. You go, you put the laser on the right settings, you go around the [00:06:50] margin and then you go horizontally, and then you go vertically vertically. And you can go over the veneer twice [00:06:55] and then see if it pops off and if it’s old, if it’s iMacs, if if it’s zirconia, [00:07:00] you’re going to have issues. If it’s old cement, you’ll be fine. If it’s new cement, you might have issues. [00:07:05] Um, and and then typically it will just pop off with, with, you know, flick off. You [00:07:10] wouldn’t want to go over it more than twice because you could be causing some heat there, which inadvertently could cause, [00:07:15] uh, inflammation of the pulp. So we go over it twice. If it just pops off there, then that’s great. [00:07:20] If it doesn’t, then if I put a slit in the veneer, typically at that stage it will pop off the traditional way. [00:07:25] Kind of. Yeah, but it’s easier, much, much easier. So exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I see okay. [00:07:30] How long have you been doing that?

Manrina Rhode: Um, I bought my water lays, um, a year and a half ago. [00:07:35]

Payman Langroudi: And do you use it for prepping? You don’t do many back teeth. [00:07:40] Is it something you can prep fillings with as well? Yeah.

Manrina Rhode: So people have it in, [00:07:45] um, paediatric care for paediatric care because you can use it to remove decay without using [00:07:50] a drill.

Payman Langroudi: And what would you say is the learning curve for that? Is it is it quite easy to pick up. Oh, [00:07:55] it was a.

Manrina Rhode: Horrible learning curve. Really. Yeah. That was something just recently which was like a big drama in [00:08:00] dentistry. Like the learning curve was, oh, it was so stressful because I’d been doing my own conventional [00:08:05] surgical gum lifts. Um, for I haven’t had an issue with veneer removal yet. [00:08:10] I’m sure I will at some point that someone will will end up, you know, devitalised I’ll end up revitalising a tooth. I’m trying [00:08:15] to follow the instructions very carefully and never run over a tooth more than twice and let patients [00:08:20] know about the risks. And so the veneer removals being okay. Up until now, I’ve done a fair a fair [00:08:25] number. Now at this stage, um, but with the surgical gum lift, um, I had, like, real drama [00:08:30] at the beginning because I wasn’t it was difficult to know how powerful the laser [00:08:35] was, and especially when you’re removing bone because the laser doesn’t cut by touch, right? You [00:08:40] keep the laser about a millimetre away from the gum tissue or away from the bone, and then you need to hover [00:08:45] and and it cuts. And so with the gum you can see it cutting. And with bone you can’t. [00:08:50] So you just need to keep a really steady hand movement blind. It’s a bit blind. And you [00:08:55] know, if you cut, if you leave it there for too long, then it can cut too much.

Manrina Rhode: And it was all a bit dramatic [00:09:00] and that I had my first issue with that fortunately. Well, fortunately on, on a, on a patient that [00:09:05] I was using as a teaching patient to, to show other dentists how I do things. And [00:09:10] so at least he knew that he was kind of in, in a learning environment. Um, but where, where [00:09:15] we ended up cutting away too much, um, bone and gum, and then the gum and bone went too high. [00:09:20] Um, in response to to that. And then I was just traumatised. And that’s [00:09:25] the thing with dentist dentistry, right? Like, you know, we’re dentists. We know, like, you know, you do something and then it goes wrong [00:09:30] and then you’re a bit traumatised and you just don’t want you don’t want to do it again. And that’s been something that I’ve had to [00:09:35] push through throughout my career because, you know, a thousand things have gone wrong in the sort of procedures that I do. And every [00:09:40] time I’ve had to, like, reason it in my head and that’s that. Now we’re talking mindset, um, of being like, [00:09:45] okay, this has happened. Let’s try and understand why it’s happened. It’s not because I’m a rubbish dentist, because I’m not.

Manrina Rhode: I’m an excellent dentist [00:09:50] and I try and do my very best, um, at every stage it’s gone wrong because, I don’t know, I [00:09:55] need further training. Let me try and understand what went wrong here. How can I make sure it doesn’t happen again? And so yeah, [00:10:00] I actually booked myself onto a waterless course in Dubai. That was the next course that was available in the world. [00:10:05] I was meant to be lecturing in the UK the week that the the waterless course was on, and [00:10:10] although I’d already been on these courses prior to buying the machine, I felt so nervous about about using the machine again [00:10:15] until I’d had more education. I contacted the people, the conference where I was meant to be lecturing and [00:10:20] said, could you find a replacement lecturer? I need to go to Dubai because I need to go on this course. And that seemed very bizarre. [00:10:25] And I, you know, I like, like to think of myself as someone that’s very reliable and doesn’t cancel [00:10:30] these things. And if I told you I’m going to talk, I’m going to talk. But I just was so important to me to make sure that I had [00:10:35] a better understanding before ever touching the machine again.

Payman Langroudi: But explain it to me. You used the laser [00:10:40] to obviously to push the gum up and then cut the gum. Cut the gum. But but then. [00:10:45] And then what? You can see, you can’t see the burn. You just go into the gingival pocket kind of thing.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. [00:10:50] So you mark on uh, you mark two millimetres on the laser, on the actual laser [00:10:55] itself, like, with a little black line. And then you know that the laser is going to cut one millimetre away from [00:11:00] where you put it, and then you just take it along the gingival. You cut the gingival first to where you want it. [00:11:05] So, you know, when we do a conventional gum lift, then we cut the gingiva to where we want it. We measure the tooth, we [00:11:10] add three millimetres, we lift the flap. Then we measure the bone to where that three millimetres is [00:11:15] and remove it. Now instead of that you remove the gum to the position that you want it. Put the gingival [00:11:20] zenith, put everything where you want it. You can show the patient it because it looks great at that stage and say this is what we’re doing. [00:11:25] And then you mark two millimetres on your, on your laser bur or. [00:11:30] Yeah. And um, and then you, you, you put it underneath [00:11:35] perpendicular. You guys can’t see me but you put it on, you know, parallel. Sorry. Not perpendicular. [00:11:40] Parallel to the tooth.

Payman Langroudi: Like a period probe.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, like a period probe under the gum. And [00:11:45] then just very slowly at uniform speed, take it, put it up to the black line [00:11:50] you’ve created. So you know you’ve got two millimetres. How far are you going. Yeah. Underneath the gum. And then [00:11:55] it’s going to cut at three millimetres. And you just slowly go along keeping.

Payman Langroudi: Your hands very.

Manrina Rhode: Still steady [00:12:00] and follow the gum margin. Your hands are steady because you’ve just cut the gum with this very steady hand. And then [00:12:05] after you’ve done that there’s a few different settings that you do which have different strengths of like, first of [00:12:10] all, removing the bone, going in and out and removing bone, then using another setting to smooth [00:12:15] off what you’ve just removed. And then you could take a probe and you can have a feel and check that there’s no spikes or anything there that feels [00:12:20] like.

Payman Langroudi: And then is there some sort of radio radiographical verification as well? Do you take an x ray to see [00:12:25] your.

Manrina Rhode: I don’t typically, but yeah, you could put a probe in and take an x ray with a probe in place like you [00:12:30] might do otherwise to measure bone levels. Um, yeah, I, you could, you [00:12:35] can probe and you can feel it. You can feel whether it’s smooth, you can feel if you’ve got three millimetres.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s go back to the beginning. [00:12:40]

Manrina Rhode: Let’s go.

Payman Langroudi: Why dentistry?

Manrina Rhode: Um. What kind of a.

Payman Langroudi: Kid were you? [00:12:45]

Manrina Rhode: I wanted to be an actress. Did you? I wanted [00:12:50] to be a famous actress. Until.

Payman Langroudi: Until what age?

Manrina Rhode: Still do. No, no, [00:12:55] I’m over it now. I had that that period of my life where where I did my acting. Um, so I’m [00:13:00] that. That’s who I was as a kid. And I think that tells you something about me right from the beginning, [00:13:05] um, that I was a performer. And, you know, when you have my these videos where my parents have a camcorder [00:13:10] in Disneyland, when when I’m a child, a ten year old, and I’m walking up to the camera and I’m saying, [00:13:15] this is the 9:00 news, let me tell you what’s happening in Disney World today. You know, I wanted to be a TV presenter [00:13:20] from a young age. I loved to perform, I performed at weddings. I love to dance, you know, [00:13:25] and, um. And I wanted to be a famous actress. That’s what I wanted to do with my life. And [00:13:30] why did you live in Chislehurst in Kent? Yeah. My, you know, you know, my [00:13:35] parents are there. Yeah, it’s a lovely place. I was the only Indian, um, in my class. [00:13:40] Um, and that was fine. Like, you know, didn’t didn’t impact me in any way. Um, I had had great [00:13:45] cultural values with my family, spent a lot of time with my family equally, you know, my school friends that [00:13:50] were Caucasian and that was all all great.

Manrina Rhode: My mum was a maths professor. Professor. She [00:13:55] also taught in colleges. So she, you know, we were all well integrated, having been born in the UK. [00:14:00] Um, and, and then when, when I was doing my bachelor, my A-levels. [00:14:05] So I was going to do a maths, history and theatre studies. Um, then [00:14:10] my headmistress pulled me aside and said, oh, you know, you’re very good at science and you’re very [00:14:15] good at art. And did you know that you could combine the two in dentistry? And I [00:14:20] was like, oh, I’m going to be a famous actress. Why would I, you know, want to consider dentistry? And [00:14:25] she said, um, just have a look. And I was in a, in a grammar school, and I’ve always [00:14:30] been a very good girl. I still am. I don’t like to break rules, and I really like to be told I’ve done [00:14:35] a good job. Um, I really do self-aware. I’m very self-aware, as [00:14:40] you can tell. Um, but, yeah, I really, really.

Payman Langroudi: You only child?

Manrina Rhode: No, I’m the [00:14:45] youngest sister. There’s two of us. Okay. Yeah. And what does your dad do?

Payman Langroudi: What did your dad do?

Manrina Rhode: He [00:14:50] was an engineer. But, um. But that was where his education was. But he ran a business when we [00:14:55] were small. He had a shop when we were small, and then he didn’t have good health. [00:15:00] So he had his first heart attack when he was 40, and he went on to have seven [00:15:05] heart attacks and quadruple bypass surgeries until he passed away five years ago. So, [00:15:10] um, no, I know, yeah, it’s very, very sad to lose him, but I’m very glad I had him for that many years. [00:15:15] You know, they they took me when I was seven years old and told me to say goodbye to him after that first heart attack, and he [00:15:20] stayed around for another over 30 years. So, um. So, yeah. Do you remember.

Payman Langroudi: Is that [00:15:25] a childhood memory of a sick parent?

Manrina Rhode: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like a worry. [00:15:30] Anxiety. What? I mean, when you think back to your childhood, there’s no anger on that subject. [00:15:35] What did you feel?

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, there’s no anxiety. I look back on it very matter of factly. [00:15:40] And in fact, it’s just part.

Payman Langroudi: Of your day to day.

Manrina Rhode: When people point it out to me and I say, oh yeah, I spent at least a month [00:15:45] in hospital every, every year of my life because my dad was in hospital for like a month, every, every year. [00:15:50] And to me, it was just part of my childhood. My parents never made it an issue for us. They [00:15:55] never made it out like it was a bad thing. They were just like, oh, dad’s in hospital again. Okay, we’re going to visit dad in hospital. Dad was [00:16:00] fine when we went to visit. Oh, my babies are here. Yeah, I’m all good. Everything’s good, daddy’s good. It never felt like. [00:16:05] Obviously. Now I know there were things going on. Yeah. Are you going to make me cry? It’s [00:16:10] too early to make me cry. Payman. We just started.

Payman Langroudi: The goal of this podcast.

Manrina Rhode: Is to make baby cry. [00:16:15] I was going to make you cry. Oh, talking about dentistry. Dan, what about your dad? Do [00:16:20] you want to talk about my divorce as well? Yeah, yeah, we.

Payman Langroudi: Certainly [00:16:25] want to get.

Manrina Rhode: To that.

Payman Langroudi: So I told you this podcast would be a bit different to most people. [00:16:30] I listened to two of your other podcasts. No, [00:16:35] no. I need something more out of you today. Yeah. So. Okay. So. So it’s not your dad didn’t have a word with [00:16:40] your headmistress. It wasn’t one of those Asian parents things. No.

Manrina Rhode: They were very supportive of me wanting [00:16:45] to go into fashion or acting or whatever I wanted to do.

Payman Langroudi: That’s different, isn’t it?

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. Well, yeah, they are they different. [00:16:50]

Payman Langroudi: To the average in that sense.

Manrina Rhode: They’re super different. My well, I don’t know everyone’s parents, but my, my parents were super awesome. [00:16:55] You know, we were encouraged to do fashion shows. And, you know, we’d sometimes at the weekend [00:17:00] we’d put on all our outfits and me and my sister would parade in and out of the living room in all our different [00:17:05] outfits. And my dad would put the camcorder up and we’d make a show. And we were kind of like, really encouraged to be [00:17:10] these Uber confident ladies, um, from a super young age. Well, [00:17:15] if you’ve heard my other podcast, you’ll have heard this story before, but I’ll tell you it again. Um, that, [00:17:20] um, you know, my my dad, um, never let me believe that I [00:17:25] wasn’t able to do anything. You know, if I went to school and I did a painting [00:17:30] and my art teacher said, this isn’t very good, Marina, like, you know, you should work at blah, blah, blah. And I came home and said, [00:17:35] oh, my art teacher said, this painting is not very good. Then my dad said, of course it’s brilliant, it’s excellent. [00:17:40] She doesn’t know what she’s talking about. This is a brilliant piece of art. And then I’d be like, oh, is it? Oh, [00:17:45] okay. I mean, firstly, he’s teaching me that the people in the people that were in control [00:17:50] were not always telling the truth, which maybe was a good lesson or wasn’t, but it made me [00:17:55] look at it again and really believe in myself. And so now I’ve come through with this, this unshakeable [00:18:00] belief in myself, um, that I’m good at everything and it seems to be, [00:18:05] uh, self-fulfilling.

Payman Langroudi: But you’re not. You’re not a parent, are you? No. It’s a difficult one with [00:18:10] kids. That subject. Yeah. Because I can see clearly that your [00:18:15] dad doing that is probably good for confidence. Right? Mhm. But at the same time when, [00:18:20] when you’re the parent. Mhm. And I’ve asked other parents this question and I [00:18:25] especially look for parents of very confident kids because when you think of, you know, what is it you’re [00:18:30] giving your kid? What’s the best thing you can give your kid? Confidence definitely is one of them. Mhm. [00:18:35] Um, but personally I worry about arrogance and confidence [00:18:40] and I know they’re very different things, but they’re in the same area. And [00:18:45] I’m always thinking I want to be very real with my kid. And sometimes that comes [00:18:50] out, you know you’re talking to a child. You’re not talking to an adult. Mhm. Um, sometimes a kid [00:18:55] can’t handle the truth, you know, and in a way, it makes more sense to act like your, [00:19:00] your dad was certainly worked for you.

Manrina Rhode: Maybe there needs to be balance. Yeah. Yeah I think there needs to be humility. [00:19:05] And I think you need to realise that. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me about that side of it. I mean, were they, were they balancing [00:19:10] it with humility as well. Like how how did you learn that.

Manrina Rhode: So they both my parents are [00:19:15] both super strong people. Right. My mom comes from a generations [00:19:20] of strong women. Um, my mom is an incredibly strong, powerful woman. [00:19:25] Um, she, my my grandmother was the oldest of seven, and she was the head of the family. So [00:19:30] all those grandparents and all their kids and all our cousins were all under my grandmother’s [00:19:35] authority. Um, and her mother was a super powerful woman. So there’s this whole generational [00:19:40] line of these women that don’t, you know, you can’t mess around with. And [00:19:45] they were completely different. And my mom’s family from, from they were very different from my dad’s [00:19:50] family. So my mom’s family were very academic, uh, very humble, uh, very intelligent, [00:19:55] almost calm people, um, in their way [00:20:00] of thinking. Whereas my dad’s family, um, again, highly intelligent, [00:20:05] powerful people, but very looks are very important to them. The way people look, the way they [00:20:10] come across confidence, the way you dress, the way you present yourself. You know, there’s [00:20:15] obviously there’s there’s there’s nuance in.

Payman Langroudi: All of that. Yeah. Yeah.

Manrina Rhode: There’s a bit of both in both [00:20:20] in both sides. I mean, my mom’s mother was also like wanted us to always look a certain way, but my dad’s family [00:20:25] are really quite loosest and loosest. Yeah. Some of them are like just loosest. [00:20:30] Looks like it’s crazy. Like, they just like, you know, they really come quite harsh on you on the way that you [00:20:35] look about. Yeah. About keeping things keep, you know, optimising yourself at all times, which was, [00:20:40] which was interesting.

Payman Langroudi: And you seek.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And when you identity [00:20:45] wise, is that how you think of yourself? Do you think of yourself as a Sikh? Do you think of yourself as a [00:20:50] British Asian? What how do you how do you identify. Mhm.

Manrina Rhode: I’m so proud to be [00:20:55] Sikh. I feel so proud when, um. You know, I listen to to prayers, and they make me feel [00:21:00] something. Um, I listen to Punjabi music when, you know, if I’m. If I ever feel like I [00:21:05] am lacking confidence, I’ll put some bhangra on and I’ll find myself like, oh, Punjabi music. Standing straighter and walking in [00:21:10] a different way because I’m so proud of my heritage. Um, so I think, yeah, probably I identify as [00:21:15] Punjabi or Sikh. Um, maybe Punjabi more than anything, like, you know, sort of [00:21:20] culturally, uh, more than British. Asian, I think always found that British Asian term a bit strange, [00:21:25] although that’s obviously what I am like, you know. But my parents were born in Africa and my grandparents were as [00:21:30] well. So we’re kind of like third generation, uh, Kenya, Kenya and Nairobi. Yeah. Are [00:21:35] you from Africa?

Payman Langroudi: No, but I’ve had loads of people whose parents came from Africa. Yeah. There’s [00:21:40] a can do attitude about that generation, right? Yeah. Because they were doing [00:21:45] it in Africa where they had to. Yeah. There’s a different way of thinking in Africa, I think. Yeah, the [00:21:50] Kenyans that came from there, I’m thinking of so many people like Dipesh Parmar, Vishal [00:21:55] Shah, Prav himself. Yeah. His parents came from there. Um, okay, [00:22:00] let’s move on to then you went to guys?

Manrina Rhode: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: How did you find that? [00:22:05]

Manrina Rhode: I love guys, I’m so proud of being a guys Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But on the day you got there, did you. Was it. Was it daunting? [00:22:10] Was it exciting? Was it I loved it London. The big city. Right. You’re coming from Kent. [00:22:15] Yeah.

Manrina Rhode: So I oh so now you can have something that’s not been on on another podcast. [00:22:20] There you go. I was dating, um, a medical student at guy’s, [00:22:25] um, from the age of 16 to 19. So he was, [00:22:30] um, a final year. Um, he would have been a final year, like he was seven [00:22:35] years older than me. And he was, um, about to be a doctor, and he was at guys. So [00:22:40] I’d already spent a lot of time at guys going out there and getting to know the area. I knew about the spit, like about, [00:22:45] you know, the bar.

Payman Langroudi: You were 16 and he was final year of medicine.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, he was 23. I like.

Payman Langroudi: That. [00:22:50] Go on.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. There’s a whole story in itself. Yeah. Um, yeah. So yeah, I know now [00:22:55] I look back at it, I was just like, what was going on there? It was very much, um, encouraged by my parents. [00:23:00] Like, not so, maybe not so much my dad, but by my mum. Um, because she was just like, oh, he’s a really, you know, he’s he’s Punjabi [00:23:05] and he’s Sikh and he’s going to be a doctor and he’s from a good family, and he’s taken this interest in you. And, [00:23:10] um, if you decide to get engaged and you get married, then that’s okay. He’ll be a doctor, you’ll be a [00:23:15] dentist, and there’s no harm in you just being with him now from the age of 16 for the rest of your life. [00:23:20]

Payman Langroudi: And what happened to that relationship?

Manrina Rhode: Um, we broke up when I was 19, [00:23:25] so my first year of, uh, of dental school, but I. But I did come to dental school with a boyfriend [00:23:30] with this older boyfriend who’d already been at guys for five years. Yeah. Um, so it was a very comfortable [00:23:35] environment for me to be in. And, um, and then I met this other guy at at [00:23:40] dental school. Um, I heard some stories about you at dental school, actually, last week that we can talk about. If you want [00:23:45] to make this podcast about you, we’re talking here. Um, [00:23:50] and, um, I met this this guy at dental school who I was [00:23:55] just enamoured with. Um, and, um, and then I left my [00:24:00] long term boyfriend, uh, to date someone.

Payman Langroudi: In your year.

Manrina Rhode: This guy? Yeah, he was a medic [00:24:05] in my year. His name is Rajiv. Um, anyone who was at uni, he’s. He’s my best friend now. Now, 27 [00:24:10] years later to me, Rajiv is still. Yeah, still best friend.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, so. So were [00:24:15] you living at. What was it called?

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then Dover Street. [00:24:20] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: A bit of a culture shock. I mean, back then, London Bridge wasn’t anywhere near as lovely as [00:24:25] it is now. Yeah, it was a bit bit more edgy, wasn’t it, back then.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, but I guess you’re 18. [00:24:30] You’ve never lived out of home. Yeah. And I. And like I said, I’d already spent two years going back and forth to. You knew it really well. [00:24:35] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So then how about the course itself? Did you did you find you took to it easily? Were you one of the ones who [00:24:40] was I don’t know, the phantom head lab. Were you comfortable there or were you one of the ones who was like me? I was [00:24:45] I was very slow, very slow to learn I hated it. Oh, I.

Manrina Rhode: Loved it, I hated it, I.

Payman Langroudi: Hated [00:24:50] dissection, I hated so much about first and second year of dental school.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, I loved [00:24:55] it. I loved all of it. I loved dissection, even though it was gross. I loved, loved that experience. I loved [00:25:00] Phantom Head. I had a tutor, um, at university who, [00:25:05] um, thought that, um, I was getting, like, boys in my year to do my [00:25:10] work for me. Um. Were you? Well, no. Not really. And so he [00:25:15] kind of like, he just made that assumption about me because. Because I was one of the, you know, looking girls in the year. [00:25:20] And, um, and then, you know, and I felt that, well, no, actually, I’m [00:25:25] a geek as well. And I’m working hard. And then, you know, I got, um, distinctions in all my clinical exams [00:25:30] because I loved I love that, I love using my hands and I love which is why I do the work that I do. Very intricate [00:25:35] dentistry now. Um, and so then it was like, well, you know, no one obviously helped me in these clinical [00:25:40] exams because this was me just working, and I got distinctions and all of them. So are you going to are you going to lay off and realise [00:25:45] that just because there may be men hanging around my pod trying to, like, hang out with me, I’m not, you [00:25:50] know, they’re not doing my work. They just want to hang out here and that’s okay.

Payman Langroudi: But so, okay, I mean, a lot of, a lot of [00:25:55] people have find that sort of Dental school supervisor, sort [00:26:00] of I mean, I don’t know, I think they, they sort of think it’s a pressure job. So I’m going to [00:26:05] pressurise you to see how you handle pressure. A lot of people find that really hard. Mhm. Did [00:26:10] you handle that. Absolutely.

Manrina Rhode: Well yeah I don’t I don’t because I guess I’ve had that attitude [00:26:15] where it’s just like if someone’s going to try and pick on me, I don’t know whether it’s a good or a bad thing in my life, but the way [00:26:20] that my brain sees things is if someone says, I’m like, I am excellent. And if you can’t see that, [00:26:25] that’s because, well, no, I just kind of think I’m just going to do me because what you think about me, that you think these guys [00:26:30] are doing my work is not true. So that’s a you thing. That’s not a me thing because I am doing good work [00:26:35] here. Like I knew that I was because I’m a goody goody. I’m going to I’m not going to break any rules. I’m going to do everything [00:26:40] that I can. I’m going to be the best that I can. Like, I’m that person who that’s who I want to be like. [00:26:45]

Payman Langroudi: By the way, what did your sister become? Don’t say she became an accountant or.

Manrina Rhode: She’s a pharmacist.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, she [00:26:50] didn’t become an actress.

Manrina Rhode: Oh, she never wanted to be an actress.

Payman Langroudi: But you had those fashion shows. I [00:26:55] thought.

Manrina Rhode: She’s could have gone and done it.

Payman Langroudi: After her dreams.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, yeah. No. Okay. She [00:27:00] does like to dress up nice, does she?

Payman Langroudi: So you finished and then she.

Manrina Rhode: Finished [00:27:05] and then. Yeah. That was in Beckenham, um, at a lovely clinic. [00:27:10] And. Yeah, I loved that. And then. Yeah, obviously after the London.

Payman Langroudi: Job straight into London. [00:27:15] So that must have been, I mean I tried something like that straight out of it. Mhm. And [00:27:20] I remember the guy sitting in front of me saying what makes you think someone like you can have this job. Mhm. [00:27:25] And um I think I, I ended up saying look I’ll just take a small worse [00:27:30] cut you know. But yeah back then it was.

Manrina Rhode: Oh and he took you on. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You should have seen the way his face changed [00:27:35] when I said that. He went from like mocking me to saying, oh, nice to see a young man [00:27:40] in a suit. Yeah.

Manrina Rhode: Oh, that’s so entrepreneurial of you. Like you’ve [00:27:45] always been who you are as well. It’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: It wasn’t entrepreneurship. It was the fact that I just [00:27:50] could not stand the NHS. The the idea that there’s a third party, someone [00:27:55] else in between me and the patient just really annoyed the her. I mean, especially someone else [00:28:00] who’s got no, no understanding of the situation. And there’s rules and regulations and you have to cut costs [00:28:05] at every corner. Just I decide I will not do NHS dentistry. That’s that. And then it was like, [00:28:10] so what am I going to do. So, so that’s where I.

Manrina Rhode: And this guy’s amazing. That’s this guy getting.

Payman Langroudi: Private [00:28:15] in 1962.

Manrina Rhode: Wow.

Payman Langroudi: And so he was saying, he was saying actually he’s saying I’ve never had anyone [00:28:20] work here who hasn’t qualified from guy’s and I hadn’t I was I was from [00:28:25] Cardiff. And then he said, he said, what makes you think you can have this job when you’ve just come out of UT? And [00:28:30] then and I said I’ll take 40%. And suddenly you changed his position. And I’ve [00:28:35] given that advice to a lot of young dentists.

Manrina Rhode: So impressive. Such a great story.

Payman Langroudi: So how did you land Surinder’s job? [00:28:40]

Manrina Rhode: Oh, so it was, you know, was it London? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It was set up the way it was.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. [00:28:45] So London. So Raj Ratan came to speak to us when I was in BT and said, this [00:28:50] clinic has opened in Knightsbridge. It has heated water beds and a giant fish tank. [00:28:55] And it’s a cosmetic dental spa and it’s like nothing the UK has ever seen before. There’s this guy, Surinder [00:29:00] Hundal. He’s a complete innovator and this is pictures of what he’s created. And all of us just sat there with [00:29:05] our mouths open, like, is this really what dentistry can be? It was crazy. And it was. And it was 2002. Right? [00:29:10] It was just so I.

Payman Langroudi: Think dentists had done something.

Manrina Rhode: They just started, but it wasn’t as glamorous. Even more, [00:29:15] it was so glamorous, like, oh, it was so beautiful. Even for now, what he’d created was [00:29:20] just beautiful. Um. And the.

Payman Langroudi: Position. Right. I mean, we somehow dentists had sort of thought there [00:29:25] is no way a dentist could be on Knightsbridge.

Manrina Rhode: Opposite Harvey Nicks, opposite the embassy from [00:29:30] the Harrods. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So how did you land the job?

Manrina Rhode: So he put the advert out in the BDG because that’s how we got [00:29:35] jobs back then. And, you know, people kept saying to me, Marina, he he was advertising for [00:29:40] a dentist to set up his clinic in Harvey Nicks. So he had the foresight.

Payman Langroudi: Because he was doing that.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, In Manchester. Yeah. [00:29:45] Yeah. And so they were like, this is you. It’s fashion and dentistry. Like, you know, you need to do this. And [00:29:50] so I was like, okay, so I, I got pearlised paper, I wrote my CV. They didn’t have very much on it, [00:29:55] put my photo in the corner and spritzed it with perfume and sent it off by post to [00:30:00] apply for this job and somehow got called for interview. I didn’t have the experience that he wanted for the position [00:30:05] that he’d advertised for, and kind of arrived at London in Knightsbridge with this waiting room, like America’s [00:30:10] Next Top model for dentists. Yeah, dentists, glamorous, beautiful dentists [00:30:15] all lined up waiting to go and speak to Surinder. So I was like, okay, right, let’s, let’s do this. And [00:30:20] went through this whole interview process, which was an initial interview with Surinder and his manager, [00:30:25] and then a written paper exam on cosmetic dentistry. I just graduated, so I’d gone to my tutors, [00:30:30] found out what the cosmetic dental textbooks were, got them out from the BD BDA library, learned [00:30:35] them all, memorise them all, learned cosmetic dentistry, aced this exam and [00:30:40] then it was a patient exam. So he got his receptionist to be a patient. And you had to do a new patient exam on this patient. [00:30:45] And then she had to report back how she made you feel. So I was good at all those because talking to Serena [00:30:50] and the manager, I’m good at chat. I was good at chat at 23 and so I did that bit.

Manrina Rhode: I aced [00:30:55] the written exam. And the receptionist who still my friend, uh, now, um, said that she felt [00:31:00] really comfortable and I’d done this perfect new patient exam on her because I’d done it how we’d been taught at university. [00:31:05] Um, so yeah, I was I was offered the job, and when I was offered it, you know, I said to Surinder, I don’t have the [00:31:10] experience, by the way, that you’ve asked for in this advert. And he was like, you know what? You’ve got the right attitude and you’ve got the right [00:31:15] vibe, and I’m going to teach you the dentistry. And I was like, great, I will do everything that I need to do [00:31:20] to make sure that you are never disappointed in making this decision. And, um, you [00:31:25] know, that came with, um, with its own thing. You know, it was a very exciting thing in the industry [00:31:30] at the time when I’d go to dental events or out with my dental colleagues, you know, everyone [00:31:35] would be like, oh, Linda’s like, you know, so excited for me that I got which was probably the, you know, what was probably [00:31:40] the best associate job in the country at the time. Um, but also with it came jealousy and [00:31:45] comments from people being like, oh well, what is your relationship with Surinder? How did you get [00:31:50] that job? How are you keeping this job? Um, and I never had a relationship. I never had [00:31:55] a I would consider Surinder as a friend, but I never had a romantic relationship [00:32:00] with Surinder.

Manrina Rhode: It was purely work. Platonic relationship. Um. And the way that I kept [00:32:05] my job was by working my ass off like that work ethic that I had was literally. [00:32:10] I would never say no if he needed me to work till midnight, because there were veneer cases that wanted to come in, I did [00:32:15] them. If he said, come in on a Sunday, I did it. If he said, write up this case, I would spend the evening sitting writing it [00:32:20] up to the most perfect, like, you know, presentation standard and present it to him and make sure there was never a time [00:32:25] where he could say, you know, you’ve not tried hard enough on this, or you’ve done this half heartedly. And I think that work ethic, [00:32:30] um, is missing, like the work ethic, which is why I was so impressed with your what [00:32:35] you showed with the way that you got your job, that you went for it and you found a solution and you got it. I think that’s [00:32:40] that work ethic can be difficult to find. And even if you interview people these days from the younger generation, [00:32:45] um, I don’t know if it’s millennials or the generation after them, um, that, [00:32:50] um, maybe they can talk the talk, but once you bring them in, they haven’t got the work ethic. They’re like, oh, do I need [00:32:55] to go there? Do I need to do that? And it’s like, do you not appreciate the opportunity?

Payman Langroudi: Well, well, well let’s, let’s let’s just let’s [00:33:00] just go back one step. Yeah. I agree with you that the, the latest generation, [00:33:05] these Gen Zs. Yeah. Their timing is so perfect. [00:33:10] And the way that it’s almost like they’ve grown up on, on media [00:33:15] that we’ll get to social media in a minute. But in the same way as Americans, you know, I’ve got a cousin [00:33:20] in America, and she she had to give a little speech at someone else’s wedding, and it was like she was doing [00:33:25] this beautiful Oscar winning performance. And I said to her, what did you get coaching or something? And she said, no, I [00:33:30] just did it in that same way that the Gen Z’s seem to know how to talk and [00:33:35] and then so so our generation. I’m a bit older than you, but our lot. When [00:33:40] we see someone who can talk very well, we take it for granted because back in our [00:33:45] day, it was only the people who knew their stuff who would talk really well. So I agree with you to that extent [00:33:50] that it’s harder to tell these days based on what someone says. Mhm. We’re, [00:33:55] we’re a sort of diverge from maybe what you’re saying is that there’s definitely hard working Gen [00:34:00] Zers. Mhm. They exist. It’s just harder to see who which ones which from [00:34:05] the way they talk. Mhm.

Manrina Rhode: You know of course they exist. There’s a variety in every generation now.

Payman Langroudi: They [00:34:10] do also, I don’t know. You must you’ll you’ll know better than me because you’re hiring, you know, dentists now [00:34:15] they’re much happier to say I only want to work three days a week. I only want to do private, [00:34:20] you know, they they want to do those things. Whereas in our day, sort of not not you, but [00:34:25] most of us used to have to do our bit on the NHS or whatever. Yeah. So [00:34:30] they are different to us. You know I agree with that. What are your thoughts on [00:34:35] all this.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah I think I’ve just found um it’s yeah, it’s different I think [00:34:40] through hiring now as a principal, it’s been interesting getting to know these different generations. But I think [00:34:45] what, what does bother me is work ethic or lack of work ethic. And so [00:34:50] that’s why I got quite passionate about it just now. Um, because I’ve come through a few examples [00:34:55] of people that I feel like you don’t appreciate the opportunity to understand. This is an [00:35:00] opportunity. Do you understand? Working alongside me is an opportunity. And it’s something that, um, that [00:35:05] is sought after that, you know, people want that opportunity to be mentored. They want someone to to take them under [00:35:10] their wing. And I will do all of that for you. I will do everything for you. But in return, you need to also [00:35:15] meet your deadlines. If I ask you to do something, do it. Do it properly, take it seriously and [00:35:20] take this opportunity seriously. And I haven’t found that always to be the case. Um, and when it’s [00:35:25] not, I think. Oh, and I think it’s because they’ve had these very easy lives like, you know, they say, what is it? Easy [00:35:30] times create self people. Self people. Yeah. Then the soft, the soft people [00:35:35] create hard times and then the hard times create. Yeah. You know, stronger people. And [00:35:40] there’s this whole thing about everything just being fun and like they just want to have fun, which is, you know, [00:35:45] in a way is great.

Manrina Rhode: It’s great that they want to work part time. And even though I wasn’t slaving [00:35:50] away in the NHS in my 20s, I was working. I was working till midnight. I was working Sundays. [00:35:55] I worked every hour that I was awake. If Surinder wanted me to do that, I did it. Um, if there were patients [00:36:00] that needed to be seen, I saw them. Um, and with that, yeah, I was well rewarded [00:36:05] for it and bought my new Porsche 911 and bought my, you know, my, my, my home in Knightsbridge. Um, [00:36:10] in my 20s and all that, which was great. But it wasn’t that any of it came without hard work. It [00:36:15] was very much like, I’m going to do this, and I’m going to not try and get away with doing it by trying to use [00:36:20] ChatGPT or do it so it didn’t exist in some other way. It was like, I’m just going to do this to the very best that it [00:36:25] can be done. And I want to be impressive. Um, and I don’t know, I think sometimes people with that, that [00:36:30] work ethic are harder to find. Or maybe I’m just not finding them, but.

Payman Langroudi: They are hard to find, right? [00:36:35] They are hard to find. Maybe. Maybe Surinder saw something in you.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, he saw that. That’s who. I think that’s. [00:36:40]

Payman Langroudi: The kind of person you were. Mm. I also want to go back to this question of, you know, did you sleep your way to the top kind [00:36:45] of question because, you know, bless her, told me a similar story. [00:36:50]

Manrina Rhode: Really? I didn’t know she had one.

Payman Langroudi: She she said someone said that to her. But how did you get yourself on TV? [00:36:55] Did you sleep? Yeah. With her? And you know, on this pod, we do talk a lot about, you know, men and [00:37:00] women and men and women in dentistry.

Manrina Rhode: But I think there are equal amount of high flying women [00:37:05] as they are of high flying men. As much as there might be women out there who take time out to bring [00:37:10] up their children, and of course they should. And, you know, they’ll set the priorities wherever they want to set them. They’re [00:37:15] equally the same amount of men who just can’t be bothered to push their career forward, who [00:37:20] are quite happy just to turn up and be in associates or run an NHS practice or whatever it is that they choose to [00:37:25] do with their lives. Um, low, low pressure, not putting themselves forward. But if you look at percentages [00:37:30] of people who are high flyers and are capable and are wanting to be leaders [00:37:35] in their profession, I would say there’s probably equal numbers. Um, I don’t [00:37:40] think that that motherhood is stopping those women who really want to achieve from doing [00:37:45] that.

Payman Langroudi: What do you think is to stop you? But it’s going to make your life a lot harder. You know, they [00:37:50] still.

Manrina Rhode: They still.

Payman Langroudi: Lecture. They definitely.

Manrina Rhode: Exist. Yeah, they can still lecture. They can still sell on board.

Payman Langroudi: One of my heroes, Linda [00:37:55] Greenwald.

Manrina Rhode: She’s amazing for.

Payman Langroudi: Children. Mhm.

Manrina Rhode: Amazing for. Yeah. So it can be done. [00:38:00]

Payman Langroudi: It can be done.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. It can be done. All these strong women have done it. Uchenna did it. Seema Sharma did [00:38:05] it I mean Clare Nightingale I can start listing. You know, all these women who I look up to within our profession and [00:38:10] they’ve all got kids and they’ve all still managed to do these other things. So I don’t think we can use that as an excuse. Oh, [00:38:15] I didn’t ask this person to lecture because they’ve got kids and they might not want to do it. That doesn’t make sense. [00:38:20]

Payman Langroudi: No, no, not that they’re not out there. You know, they’re not out there. They’re busy building families. [00:38:25] They’re not they’re not out there in the same way as some men are or more men are. You know, it’s a numbers [00:38:30] game, isn’t it?

Manrina Rhode: We’re talking numbers. It’s very much, um, everyone’s just going to work, and the men are going to work, and the women [00:38:35] are going to work, whether they’re working full time or part time or whatever they’re doing. And then where these lecturing commitments [00:38:40] come in or board positions, um, it’s just that the fact that [00:38:45] it’s an old a lot of them are old boys clubs, and it’s the old boys.

Payman Langroudi: You’re on the board of some stuff.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, I’ve been [00:38:50] on boards all through my career. But, you know, when I was on the board of the British Academy of Cosmetic Dentistry [00:38:55] forever ago. Um, I, I think I joined them in 2007. [00:39:00] Um, they they invited me to join the board because it was an all male board, [00:39:05] and they just co-opted me on without a voting process because they were like, oh, you know, you’re really [00:39:10] involved in our committees and we should probably get a woman on the board. And so I joined the board for a few years. And then when [00:39:15] I left the board, it was an all male board again. And so, you know, there was at [00:39:20] some point they brought me in for that little bit, but it’s still very much male dominated. [00:39:25] The lectures that they choose are very male dominated. And if you go to them and say, why is it that [00:39:30] there’s not an equal number of male and female lecturers at your events? They’ll say, oh, we don’t choose our [00:39:35] lecturers based on on sex. We, we, we choose them based on, you know, how [00:39:40] Merit. Yeah, merit. But I refuse to believe that there are not an equal number [00:39:45] of men and women with enough merit to warrant them to lecture at our events. In a [00:39:50] very clear example of that is with Invisalign. So at the last years Invisalign conference, the orthodontic [00:39:55] conference, there was a vastly male dominated, dominated speaker. Line-up. [00:40:00] I think there was one woman talking about looking after your team or something. [00:40:05] Like something completely non-clinical, with a full clinical Line-Up of men and some orthodontics [00:40:10] or orthodontics. Boycotted it. And certainly we all made our, you know, our [00:40:15] views, um, uh, audible to them. And also they started organising these [00:40:20] women’s dinners and they invited, I think, 20 of us from around the country [00:40:25] out to dinner so they could sit and talk to us women in dentistry.

Manrina Rhode: Invisalign invited us to talk about, you know, what are we [00:40:30] doing wrong here? How can we do better? And then at this year’s conference, it was completely different. It was a completely [00:40:35] equal Line-Up for Men and women, and they were great lectures. So it can be done. It might take [00:40:40] a minute longer to not go for the normal people who put themselves forward saying, let me do it and think about, you [00:40:45] know, actually who’s really good out there and who would be really interesting to listen to. Um, but with that, that small [00:40:50] amount of thought, that’s how you’re going to create change. So to not want to create it, it’s just in my opinion, it’s just [00:40:55] lazy and to to bring up this whole reverse sexism thing that oh by, by [00:41:00] making equal numbers of men and women is then reverse sexism. And I don’t want to be part of that is even more ridiculous, [00:41:05] because there will never be a change which needs to happen if we don’t make the effort for that to make that change. [00:41:10] So that’s the time that we’re in right now. That’s the change we’re trying to create. And so it needs people to acknowledge that and try and [00:41:15] do it. I am now on the board of directors for the British Association of Private Dentistry, which is actually [00:41:20] a completely equal board or actually more female dominated than male for a range of races, [00:41:25] a range of ages and very well represented organisations. So [00:41:30] yeah, I feel really proud to be a PD. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Ba PD also had a similar issue though didn’t they.

Manrina Rhode: They did, but they did something about [00:41:35] it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah I agree. So let’s talk about those. [00:41:40] How many years was it you were at Surinder.

Manrina Rhode: Uh 2003 till 2008. [00:41:45] 2009. I left about five six years.

Payman Langroudi: In those five six years, of course, you learnt the clinical [00:41:50] stuff.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But what else did you learn from Surinder?

Manrina Rhode: Everything. I [00:41:55] just I feel so grateful to him. I feel so ridiculously grateful. I [00:42:00] wish I could just see him and say to him, Surinder, thank you. Um, for [00:42:05] for everything. You know what I’ve created now at Drmr, which I believe you know, my super clinic, which I believe [00:42:10] is the most beautiful in the world, the level of five star service that we have, that we offer our clients [00:42:15] flying from all over the world. A lot of what I’ve done here is emulating what I was taught at that time, [00:42:20] and what Surinder built there was so special. We had our clinics in [00:42:25] Harvey Nichols and Harrods. You know, I ran both those clinics for him as well as our our head office in London. [00:42:30] And then we had face down the road and, you know, he was just he, he, he [00:42:35] had such so much charisma and all the team had so much love for him. Um, that [00:42:40] we wanted to please him. And what Surinder was really good at was he was a people person. So [00:42:45] like you said, oh, he saw that in you when he interviewed you? Yes, he did Payman because that’s what he could do. He [00:42:50] hired so well. He built these amazing teams of people that some of the people I worked with back then are [00:42:55] still my best friends now, you know, 20 years later, even though we now live all over the world, some of them have moved [00:43:00] back to Australia. And, you know, they live, they live, you know, everywhere. But we still keep in touch because we [00:43:05] created such a strong bond. Um, because of what he built there. You know, it was really a really [00:43:10] special place.

Payman Langroudi: I guess you were also sort of exposed to things like ten years younger [00:43:15] and just the press.

Manrina Rhode: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Did did you I mean, I remember one of my [00:43:20] early bosses had a PR company. Mhm. Working for him and just [00:43:25] opening that whole side of it.

Manrina Rhode: It was so glamorous. The whole thing was so glamorous. [00:43:30]

Payman Langroudi: Does that stayed with you now. Sort of keeping the press interested.

Manrina Rhode: Everything I do now, and it’s so long later [00:43:35] that I’ve, that I’ve opened my, my clinic. But so much of it was just taught from just starting my career, [00:43:40] being engulfed by everything that was. And it was known to be the most expensive clinic in the country [00:43:45] back then. That sort of affluent, like showing off about money was like a thing, like, you know, wearing [00:43:50] diamonds and designer labels. It’s not so much now, but it was a real thing back then. And my patients [00:43:55] would go out for dinner, and that would be something you’d bring up in conversation. Oh, I go to London because everyone [00:44:00] kind of knew what that meant. It’s like, oh, you go to the most expensive clinic in the world. And that was the service that we provided. [00:44:05] We had so many A-list celebrities that used to come in. We used to provide this amazing service for all of them. [00:44:10] We worked so well as a team together. We loved each other so much that we didn’t mind if we worked late, because we just loved [00:44:15] all hanging out together. And when we weren’t working, we still spent all our time together. Like after work, we’d go sit in [00:44:20] the pub and every Friday, every Friday night he took us out clubbing and to these amazing clubs [00:44:25] in Mayfair. We were all in our 20s, right? So, you know, he’d get a table at a club in Mayfair, and we [00:44:30] were introduced to that whole lifestyle from a really young age, looking a certain way, acting a certain way, being around [00:44:35] all this affluence and really just building this real camaraderie that we’re all best friends. And everyone [00:44:40] knew exactly what was going on in the clinic with everyone else because we were such, such a close unit. He really built that. [00:44:45]

Payman Langroudi: So interesting to hear that, that side of it. Yeah.

Manrina Rhode: So awesome.

Payman Langroudi: So then what happened [00:44:50] next?

Manrina Rhode: So obviously ten years younger came about and ten years younger was this beast. [00:44:55] So you know, came on channel 4:08 p.m. Thursday night. There were only five TV channels, [00:45:00] but Friday morning there’d be 200 new patients trying to book in with surrender. Um, [00:45:05] and he he had a six month waiting list to see him. He put his new patient consultation fee up to £500. [00:45:10] And this is 20 years ago. Right. So there was a lot of money, um, and [00:45:15] anyone that couldn’t wait to see him, they saw me. And it was only me and him that were doing these veneers. So we’re doing ten, [00:45:20] 20 veneers five, seven days a week, working evenings. Uh, you [00:45:25] know, Surinder used to call ten years younger the beast because it was intense and I think it was [00:45:30] the beginning of the unravelling. Sorry, Surinder, if you’re listening. [00:45:35] Um, because it just became too much. It was too much. And, [00:45:40] um, you can’t say no to the business because it’s coming in. But equally, we couldn’t handle the business. I could [00:45:45] because I was in my 20s and it was all exciting. And like I said, I bought all these cool things and, you know, it was awesome. Um, but I [00:45:50] think it was it was a lot for Surinder. And, um, and things started to get really messy and, [00:45:55] um, and everyone started leaving.

Manrina Rhode: And one of my core qualities [00:46:00] or characteristics is loyalty. I’m a super loyal person. Um, and so I’ve really tried [00:46:05] to keep my loyalty there, but it got to a point where I couldn’t, um. And I had to move on. So, [00:46:10] um. Yeah. So I was working with the Bacd, and I was on a committee with Tiff Qureshi, who’s also [00:46:15] awesome. Um, and he took me under his wing, and he told me that Tim Bradstock Smith, who is also [00:46:20] a godfather of cosmetic dentistry, um, that had opened, you know, was opened London [00:46:25] small London small clinic. Yeah. And he was looking for a new associate to come in and do, do porcelain veneers all [00:46:30] day and, you know, did he want. Did I want to be put forward? And I was like, yeah, unfortunately I think I do need to be put [00:46:35] forward. Um, and so then, yeah, I got, I got that job there and then worked at both places for [00:46:40] a while like, you know, and that was a nuts year. Like, I don’t know, I don’t I’m not going to talk about how much I [00:46:45] earn in that time. But that was crazy amounts for someone in their 20s to be earning. Um, [00:46:50] your.

Payman Langroudi: Typical clinical day, was it prep in the morning? In the afternoon? [00:46:55] Just. Yeah, five days. Six days a week.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So just a veneer case every day. [00:47:00] Yeah. Prep and.

Manrina Rhode: Fit. Yeah I mean even now. Yeah. Even now. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. We do our consultations and the [00:47:05] main treatment I do is porcelain veneers. So but but but from 30, from the age of 30. So just. [00:47:10]

Payman Langroudi: What were you grossing.

Manrina Rhode: Well in that a day a [00:47:15] day. Oh I don’t know. Maybe. Yeah. Well ten, 20 grand a day. Yeah. Well it was crazy [00:47:20] time, like. Yeah. I mean, at that time in my 20s, I was earning a quarter of a million [00:47:25] a year, which was a lot of money when you’re 28.

Payman Langroudi: Back [00:47:30] then as well. Yeah. That, you know, inflation. Yeah.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, [00:47:35] yeah. It was crazy times. Um, but then from 30 I cut down to working [00:47:40] three days a week. And I’ve only ever clinically worked three days a week since then. So for the last 15 years. [00:47:45] So I did that in my 20s. But that was as far as my working really hard went.

Payman Langroudi: Do you feel like [00:47:50] you burnt out a little?

Manrina Rhode: Um, probably. Um, at [00:47:55] 32, I went to to to America for two years and [00:48:00] took a break from dentistry and pursued my acting career. And, um, and [00:48:05] I’m really glad that that break came at that time, because I think it’d been a lot like I’d really [00:48:10] worked a lot in my 20s. It was already a director of the BCD. [00:48:15] You know, people in dentistry knew who I was, you know, being given lecturing opportunities, [00:48:20] writing for journals, all the three things that we do in dentistry up until, you know, did [00:48:25] so much free stuff. I personally still do. Um, but I only probably started charging [00:48:30] for it the last few years, like for the first 20 years of my career. Um, and [00:48:35] pushing, pushing, pushing to just be the best, be recognised at the best. Like wanting to be the best in my field. Be be known [00:48:40] as this top cosmetic dentist. It was so important to me. Um, and then obviously Instagram came about [00:48:45] and then, you know, that that was a whole new way of, of of [00:48:50] of promoting yourself and for, for people to find you. Um, and I love that because it was like [00:48:55] acting. But yeah, I guess we’ll come on to social media. So yeah, I probably, I think it probably was a bit at burnout when [00:49:00] I went by the time I went to America, it came at a really good time.

Payman Langroudi: And when did marriage and divorce happen. [00:49:05]

Manrina Rhode: Then.

Payman Langroudi: This story.

Manrina Rhode: 31, I got married and 36, I got divorced. [00:49:10] Do you want to talk about it? Uh, if you like. Um, I married, uh, Rishi [00:49:15] Rich, um, who, um, is a British Asian, um, music producer. [00:49:20] Very famous British Asian music producer. Um, amazing.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:49:25] did you meet him?

Manrina Rhode: I so we we are our dads knew each other, so [00:49:30] I’d known him since I was a child. I probably, um, developed my first [00:49:35] crush on him when I was, like, seven. Like, I remember at seven. Just. You wasn’t [00:49:40] Rishi rich then? He was just. He’s just something that he was. I knew that’s what I liked. Um, I only [00:49:45] probably saw him, like, twice a year. Ever. Because he was. They were just friends. And it was only we were at the same place. [00:49:50] But whenever he was there, he had a very different upbringing from me. Um, he was [00:49:55] brought up in a council estate with with an alcoholic father, and, um, he, [00:50:00] um, he was just so cool, like, you know, just swag and cool and, [00:50:05] you know, music and DJing and. Yeah, um, whenever I’d see him, I just think [00:50:10] like, oh, that’s just so cool. Um, it was so different from me at this grammar school in Chislehurst [00:50:15] with all my Caucasian friends. Good girl. So good. Like, you know, so, like my, [00:50:20] you know, my parents, my mum’s a goodie goodie. And my dad’s like, yeah, a bit of a baddie. Cool guy, but, [00:50:25] you know, mum’s a goodie goodie. And I was. I’m a goodie goodie. I have a bit of that bad girl in me like from my [00:50:30] dad as well, but like, there’s a lot of that good, you know.

Manrina Rhode: And so I guess that’s why that was attractive. Um, because [00:50:35] it felt a bit like maybe what my dad was like, and I guess. Yeah, when we when I was growing up, before [00:50:40] Chiselhurst, we had a shop when I was really small, like in Abbey wood, [00:50:45] um, until the age of seven. And then my dad’s friends were [00:50:50] like bikers, like there was a biker gang, and they used to hang around a lot. Um, [00:50:55] and then some of them ended up in jail and whatever. But I guess that it’s really interesting how your childhood [00:51:00] influences you, forms you. Yeah, yeah. Because what I saw then, because then I went to private school and then grammar [00:51:05] school. So it was completely it was only until seven that I was in that kind of environment, that abbeywood environment, [00:51:10] but it formed me enough for me to like it. You recognise something of that, something that felt cool [00:51:15] and I left that environment. I was in these lovely, you know, and then when I saw that in Rishi and [00:51:20] I liked it and it was cool, it reminded me of maybe it reminded me of my dad, and if that’s weird. Um, but [00:51:25] dad was still around then.

Payman Langroudi: And he was super famous, super successful.

Manrina Rhode: Then Rishi became [00:51:30] famous, right? So I was 12 and Rishi was 15, and he got signed by Virgin. And I remember [00:51:35] like walking down East Ham in Southall, like the Indian areas and there being posters [00:51:40] of him on the wall and me just being like, now he’s never going to want me now. He’s famous like I wanted him [00:51:45] before he was famous. Um, and I wonder whether I think Rishi was a part [00:51:50] of me. I started exercising when I was 16 and I still exercise religiously. [00:51:55] It’s a big part of my life. And now I’m 45 and, um, you know, 29 [00:52:00] years of that. Is that 29 years? I don’t know. And I think that, [00:52:05] um, that it was because, um, I thought, Rishi will never want me. I need [00:52:10] to be perfect. And if I am, maybe he’ll notice me. Um, so maybe there was that in me. [00:52:15] And then I started working out when I was 16. And then by the time I was 18, I had, you know, [00:52:20] been working out by the time I got to uni and I started dating this older man. And, um, then they, they [00:52:25] called me Marina, the body road at uni, like Elder Body Macpherson. She was [00:52:30] a supermodel at the time. Um, because I was already working out and I’d always had my abs out and these tiny tops [00:52:35] and these low jeans and just be like, you know, because. And then then, fine, you work. Life moved [00:52:40] on. And I didn’t see Rishi for years, for the whole decade, probably through through my 20s. [00:52:45] Um, and then when I was 31, um, you know, I had this [00:52:50] thing in my head that my, my parents wanted me to get married. They wanted me to have an arranged marriage, and [00:52:55] they showed me, like, 150 men to marry. Maybe [00:53:00] I got 150 proposals. It was a lot of that. And [00:53:05] there’s this. And you were.

Payman Langroudi: Saying no to all.

Manrina Rhode: Of them? Yeah. So there was there was this there’s this book. Right. So I’m sick. [00:53:10] And at the Gurudwara, there’s a book and it’s called, you know, the, the, the wedding book. And in there [00:53:15] there’s all the eligible Sikh, uh, children and, [00:53:20] uh, they and in there. So I’m in there as this five foot five Sikh Punjabi [00:53:25] dentist from a nice family. So it was like an obvious, uh, proposal [00:53:30] if you’re not looking at very much. And that’s your criteria. That’s basically the criteria. She’s average height, she’s an average build, and she’s got a nice [00:53:35] job. Um, and she’s got a nice, nice family. Well, like a well respected family. So there was a lot [00:53:40] of proposals that came in. And then I had this criteria, um, that, that, [00:53:45] um, I wanted these five essays, which were the. This is really personal. Now, I really [00:53:50] don’t like them, but there you go. There’s podcast. There you go. So I wanted someone who was six foot, [00:53:55] who was Sikh, who had a six pack, who was sauna. So good looking, sauna, good [00:54:00] looking, good looking, and Sienna, which meant intelligent. So he needed a degree. So I had these five essays. [00:54:05] And so when these guys applied, these families applied through this Gurudwara book. If they weren’t the five [00:54:10] essays, I would just reject them because there were too many applicants. So it was like, I may as well [00:54:15] have this criteria. And it’s ridiculous because look who I married. You know, he was Sikh, but you know, he didn’t [00:54:20] have a degree. Like I think he was handsome, but he wasn’t tall. He was like five foot nine max. [00:54:25] Um, so he wasn’t, you know, he didn’t have a six pack. He didn’t exercise. He wasn’t any of these things. [00:54:30] Um, but.

Payman Langroudi: By the time you got married. Yeah, he was already famous.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. He’d got [00:54:35] he was famous from the age of 15. He was signed by Virgin Records. You know, he’d built the Rishi Rich, [00:54:40] uh, project, like with Jay, Sean and Juggy. He had his own record label. [00:54:45]

Payman Langroudi: So then that world.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, we just got different worlds. Yeah, he’d made his world. [00:54:50] I’d made my world. But then.

Payman Langroudi: But then you went into that world.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. So I’d been pushing myself to be known as this top [00:54:55] cosmetic dentist. And like I was saying, pushing, pushing, pushing in my career. And he’d been pushing, pushing, pushing in his career. [00:55:00] And then we both turned up at this. So with this whole story, my mom had said, get, you [00:55:05] know, you’ve got till you’re 30 to keep saying no to all these boys. And by 30, if she’s not found [00:55:10] someone yourself, then you’ve got to let me find someone for you. And, um. And so then I was [00:55:15] okay. So then I was 31. So it was really time, because really, mom was going to get me married off. She wouldn’t have done that. [00:55:20] But that was the that was the thought. And and I’d also agreed to it that I’d let her do [00:55:25] that. Like I’d let her, I’d marry her choosing. And then at 31, I went to this wedding and [00:55:30] and Rishi was there and I was like, well, she’s here like, [00:55:35] that’s nuts. I’ve not seen him for ten years. And there was a big queue of people because Rishi was there [00:55:40] and he was a celebrity. It was a big deal that he was at this wedding. It was a queue of people that wanted to meet him at the wedding. They left the wedding to [00:55:45] queue to meet him. And I walked in with my mum and he saw me and he said hi. And then [00:55:50] he, um, he left the queue of people to come to me and my mum to say hello, and I was like, what’s [00:55:55] going on here? Does she like, remember me? And is he acknowledging me? Like giving me importance here? [00:56:00] And he was like, hey man, I haven’t seen you for a long time.

Manrina Rhode: I was like, nice to see you. And then we went. I was like, okay, see you later. [00:56:05] And then he sat down with his mum. I sat down with my mum and then the DJ like made an announcement that we’ve got Rishi rich [00:56:10] in this wedding today. We just want to acknowledge that he’s he’s at this wedding and Rishi is on his [00:56:15] phone and the guy’s like talking about how amazing he is. And he just kind of looks up from his phone and looks at me, [00:56:20] um, and kind of like, winks at me. And I was like, why is he looking at me like this? What is going [00:56:25] on here? Um, and then Rishi got up and he said, I’m leaving. Um, but can I take your number? [00:56:30] I was like, yeah. And he took my number. And then he messaged me, I don’t know, very [00:56:35] soon after I said, let’s hang out. I haven’t seen you for ten years. Let’s let me I don’t really know you. [00:56:40] Let’s let me find out about you. And I was like, okay. And he didn’t know anything about me, but I guess he just [00:56:45] liked the way I looked. And, um, and then we [00:56:50] got engaged three months later and we got married three months after that, so. And then we moved [00:56:55] to America. Wow. So it was a real whirlwind. But for me, there was no question because I’d been in love [00:57:00] with him since I was seven.

Payman Langroudi: So when you got to America and it was a whole other world, it was nuts. [00:57:05]

Manrina Rhode: So this was nuts in itself. Like Rishi’s big aim in life was this guy Teddy [00:57:10] Riley, right? So he looked up to Teddy Riley. Teddy Riley was the lead guy in Blackstreet. He’d [00:57:15] made Michael Jackson’s Dangerous album. He had nine Grammys and he was like the big like the guy that Rishi [00:57:20] just looked up to in life, like, just frigging loves him and Teddy. We bumped into [00:57:25] Teddy, um, at an event, like, we were somewhere, and big Mike knew him, and big Mike [00:57:30] was from New York, and he knew Rishi. And so I’d been thrown into this British Asian celebrity world. [00:57:35] So I got married and it was awards and events and photo shoots, and they would bring like [00:57:40] £1 million worth of diamonds in suitcases and put them on me for me to wear somewhere. And Rishi was being flown [00:57:45] around the world for lifetime achievement awards, and he’d fly me with him. We’d go first class and he would [00:57:50] like. I remember he’d got a lifetime achievement award in Canada and he went on stage, and then he was like, this is for my wife. And he got [00:57:55] me up on stage and I was like, this is nuts. We had VIP everywhere we went. We couldn’t go to any event without [00:58:00] having our own locked off section so Rishi wouldn’t be disturbed. We couldn’t leave the house without being photographed. [00:58:05] You know, Rishi was parking outside Harrods and someone’s like taking photos and putting it on Twitter saying, oh, [00:58:10] Rishi Rich can’t park your Beemer then or, you know, whatever it was. What was your feeling?

Payman Langroudi: Was your was your feeling now [00:58:15] you were living that life that you were dreaming of when you were seven years old. Was your feeling like on [00:58:20] fire amazing? Yeah. Or was it or was it that it’s not all I thought it was gonna be?

Manrina Rhode: Oh, no, it was amazing. [00:58:25] It was amazing. I love that make him make up, clothes, photos, photoshoot. [00:58:30] Oh, yeah. Celebrity. Oh, yeah. It was, it was amazing. And it was my my husband. [00:58:35] It was even better. I didn’t even have to be the celebrity. He made me a celebrity by default. We became the Posh and [00:58:40] Becks of this British Asian world. And, um, it was just awesome. [00:58:45] But then. Yeah. So Teddy. Then Teddy signed Rishi and this [00:58:50] was Rishi’s biggest dream in life come true. So we moved to America, but [00:58:55] that was what my story was leading. So that’s why we went, um, because we moved into a music academy, into [00:59:00] Teddy’s house in America. And then I was living with Blackstreet. And [00:59:05] like, all these people coming, like P.diddy sending a helicopter to pick Teddy up and Destiny’s Child coming. [00:59:10] All these people who these musicians who had grown up listening to were suddenly part of, like our of our everyday life [00:59:15] and actually just really wanting to get in with Rishi because they believed that India was the next [00:59:20] big market. And so they just felt like that was their way in there. Um, by [00:59:25] by by kissing his ass.

Payman Langroudi: And so how [00:59:30] did it go wrong?

Manrina Rhode: Um. Uh oh. [00:59:35] Um, so my dad became terminally ill [00:59:40] in England, and I needed to come back [00:59:45] to the UK. This, this this is a whole hour in itself. If you want to sit in a therapy session and talk about why my marriage failed. [00:59:50] But I think in in a nutshell, I needed to come back to the UK [00:59:55] because my dad was dying and I needed to be around him and support my family. And [01:00:00] by that stage, we’d been in America for two years, and I felt like we could come back [01:00:05] for six months or however long my dad was going to stay with us, um, and then go back [01:00:10] And Rishi couldn’t do that, and [01:00:15] that just ended up being the end of.

Payman Langroudi: Us wouldn’t do that. [01:00:20]

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, because he couldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: But you do you think he could?

Manrina Rhode: I hoped he would, and I couldn’t. [01:00:25] I couldn’t make that decision. You can’t choose between your dad and your husband. And maybe if you do need to choose, you need to [01:00:30] choose your husband. But.

Payman Langroudi: But that was the first crack that you felt.

Manrina Rhode: I think that’s what it was. It was like I’ve lived [01:00:35] my whole life to be in Rishi’s life. Rishi is an amazing man. Um, but [01:00:40] he has been famous since he was 15 and everyone in his life is his yes man. And [01:00:45] to be in his sphere is to be part of his life and to go [01:00:50] along with whatever he wants to do. And that’s fine, because it’s fun. Um, but [01:00:55] he did. What he hasn’t ever learnt is to give someone [01:01:00] to not do what he wants to do for somebody else. It’s no bad thing. It’s just that he’s never had to do it. Uh, [01:01:05] he doesn’t have day and night. He doesn’t have weekends and weekdays. He just lives his life in his creative. He’s, you [01:01:10] know, ultra creative. Um. And so he couldn’t do it. He couldn’t let me go to be [01:01:15] with my dad. And he couldn’t come with me to be with my dad, and I couldn’t not be with my dad or support [01:01:20] my mom. It’s very, you know, dad couldn’t walk. Dad couldn’t talk. Um, he couldn’t [01:01:25] eat by himself. It was. It was. And now we’ll cry. But, yeah, it was too much. It was too much for me not to be able to support my [01:01:30] my family in that time when all I was doing in America was having a party. Sure. Richie was [01:01:35] working. I was even working, you know, I was just going.

Payman Langroudi: To party feeling. Did that leave you with, though? As far as I mean, did you feel [01:01:40] like you’d failed somehow, or did you feel what did you feel?

Manrina Rhode: Definitely. I think my divorce [01:01:45] to my, to me felt like a failure, especially being such a, like overachiever in life [01:01:50] and always wanting to do everything to.

Payman Langroudi: Feel like it was the first time you’d really failed. Yeah, I think.

Manrina Rhode: So, yeah, I think it was. I [01:01:55] think that was really hard for me. It was hard for me to publicly admit, and especially because I didn’t even believe in divorce. [01:02:00] You know, I went into my divorce and said, I went into my marriage. Sorry, believing I’d say it all the time, like, [01:02:05] I will do anything in my power to make this work. So there’s no way that my marriage will ever fail. And I [01:02:10] actually would have just followed Rishi to the end of the earth. Um, but I couldn’t. [01:02:15] I couldn’t do that, you know? I couldn’t not be there for my family when they needed [01:02:20] me. That’s just for six months of my life. And when I. When I was just partying, that’s the thing.

Payman Langroudi: Now, in retrospect, [01:02:25] you see, do you see that lesson as a valuable one, that you learned that failure? I mean, I always [01:02:30] worry about my my son hasn’t failed properly yet. You know, he’s he’s just done very well at [01:02:35] everything he’s tried. It’s amazing. But I mean, he’s 17, but I know there’s going to be a moment. Yeah. [01:02:40] Like even let’s say everything goes fantastically well. He goes into Cambridge. Let’s say he comes top of his class, then [01:02:45] he goes PhD. Then there will, there’ll be a moment where he’ll fail. And [01:02:50] I find my brother was a real high achiever. And he he got that moment in his third year of medical school [01:02:55] and it hit him so hard. Mhm. But now when you look back on [01:03:00] that. Mhm. Do you feel like it was a lesson that has helped you. Helped [01:03:05] you now or. Of course no one wants to see their father ill and lose a [01:03:10] marriage. But do you see any benefit you got out of it.

Manrina Rhode: You know Payman, everyone says that that [01:03:15] that our journey in life is to, to learn to deal with these hardships. Right. They say that that that [01:03:20] life is stressful, these disappointments transforms you into this diamond and the pressure [01:03:25] of coal and blah, blah, blah.

Payman Langroudi: You said before about soft times, soft people, you know, that whole thing.

Manrina Rhode: But why? [01:03:30] But I just think why? It’s absolutely ridiculous. I did not have really any hardship in [01:03:35] my life until I was 35, until this happened. All of this happened. And then all of this happened in the period of like four [01:03:40] years, you know, Rishi and my dad. And what happened with Rishi does not even compare [01:03:45] to what what it felt like losing my dad. Like it’s a small. The divorce is a small percentage [01:03:50] of of the pain and the loss of losing my father. Um, but, [01:03:55] um. And so I keep being told that. And, of course, I’m actually I [01:04:00] would almost go as far to say that I’m a completely different person at 45 than I was [01:04:05] at 35 before all of this happened. Um, and like, I look [01:04:10] back at that person that I was prior to all of this, and I almost don’t recognise her. And sometimes [01:04:15] I see her in other people, like, I see people who are just so happy and so carefree and [01:04:20] so light, and I think, and I recognise it, that that’s who I was. Um, because now [01:04:25] I’m quite a joyful person. Imagine what I was like before all of this happened. Like I was just floating. [01:04:30] Um, and it just feels like a distant memory that I have no idea how to get back to, um, [01:04:35] because I kind of carry, uh, the pain of all the things [01:04:40] that have happened since then, in the last ten years with me, every [01:04:45] day, which we all do. Yeah, right. We just learn to live with it. That’s what we’re learning to live with every day. Yeah. [01:04:50]

Payman Langroudi: What a story. What a what a story of ups and downs. You know, the highs [01:04:55] and lows in such a short period of time.

Manrina Rhode: Well not really. I think that divorce and losing parents is something [01:05:00] that happens to a lot of people in life. I don’t look at myself and think, oh, my life. And, you know, I’ve heard some [01:05:05] stories, especially recently. I mean, I’ve been talking to my teams about their stories and even just, you know, people around [01:05:10] me, the stories that some people have been through or that you read about in books, I know that my story is nothing. I’ve [01:05:15] not been through war. I’ve not really been through hardship. I’ve not been through abuse. I’ve not been through through any of those things. It’s just [01:05:20] pain, isn’t it, that that as humans we feel and maybe I feel quite a lot because I’m quite I’m [01:05:25] an empath. Like I feel things a lot. Um, and so probably I carry these [01:05:30] things with me, but I don’t for a minute feel like, uh, I deserve any special treatment for [01:05:35] my divorce or my loss of my dad.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s move on. Let’s move on to do you call it drmr? [01:05:40] Yeah, but I call it doctor. Mr.. Uh, do people get that wrong? I got. [01:05:45]

Manrina Rhode: That let’s talk about I like.

Payman Langroudi: I like doctor Mr.. I think such a strong brand.

Manrina Rhode: Oh, it happens so [01:05:50] often. I remember when we were buying our furniture. So her home, it’s a cool brand. And they were like, oh, I was [01:05:55] there with my with my partner Chris. And they were like, oh, you guys are so cute. [01:06:00] And we were like, oh, why are we so cute? And they were like, it’s so cute how you’ve named your business doctor. Mr.. [01:06:05]

Payman Langroudi: Because of him. Yes.

Manrina Rhode: I was like, it is not a doctor. Mr.. [01:06:10] It’s not our business. It is Doctor Marina Road, and it’s definitely Drmr. So [01:06:15] it happens all the time. I don’t like it that people assume. People assume it’s his business because [01:06:20] they think it’s mine and his together.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s a cool brand. Full stop. I mean, I know you’ve put it on products as well. Yeah. Like [01:06:25] doctor Mr.. So cool. Yeah. Um, let’s talk about products first. Yeah. Because products [01:06:30] are hard. I mean, I can tell you how hard products are, right?

Manrina Rhode: You’ve done amazingly.

Payman Langroudi: Well. Products are [01:06:35] difficult and and often people you know. I come across dentists every day who wants his [01:06:40] own line of toothpaste or bleaching, even though a lot of dental [01:06:45] practices or group practices try to make their own bleaching system or whatever. And people underestimate how [01:06:50] difficult even one tube of something is. So when I saw your line [01:06:55] came out with, oh, on day one, you came out with five products, is it 5 or 6 products? [01:07:00] And I remember as soon as I saw that, I thought, oh good, that’s that’s [01:07:05] a big risk. Yeah. Big knowing knowing what I know about minimum order quantities, [01:07:10] about formulation, even goddamn cardboard. Yeah. People don’t realise [01:07:15] there’s 100 decisions to be made about cardboard and finish and all that. Yeah. And clearly you’d had professionals [01:07:20] on it. Mhm. Big risk. Big risk right. Mhm. How did that go. [01:07:25] Tell me about it.

Manrina Rhode: So I’ve been an associate at a high earning [01:07:30] associate. I had been at that stage for 18 years. So I had some cash. [01:07:35] Yeah I had cash. You know even now with my clinic everyone’s like how did you find it? Who funded it then? Like everyone was, [01:07:40] assumes there’s a man behind it, like there’s no man behind it. It’s been my hard work behind it. And so I’ve [01:07:45] got I’ve got something. Something to invest. And what better to invest in than, than your own brand and your own company. [01:07:50] Yeah. Um, I think so. The way it came about was, um, I’d been doing a lot of work [01:07:55] with apogee, like I was their clinical ambassador. And actually, that was, you know, that was an amazing thing. And it was amazing [01:08:00] during Covid and made really well during Covid on a bougie products because we could do these online consultations. [01:08:05] And I’d met this, this dermatologist, um, from, from [01:08:10] abroad at one of Bob Connor’s courses And we became friends. And [01:08:15] she said to me, you know, you do so much work with the Bahji and have you thought about setting [01:08:20] up your own skincare line? And I was like, I wouldn’t even have the foggiest which star I’m the same as all those [01:08:25] dentists. I’ve always had that in my mind, especially the toothpaste. Like, I really would like to create a very special toothpaste and [01:08:30] and have that something that I’ve created. And I was like, I wouldn’t have any idea where to start. And she was like, well, I’ll hold [01:08:35] your hand through it like, you know, if you want to do it. And so she did. And it was a process. And it was that [01:08:40] was the beginning of the brand. That’s how the dimmer came about. And the brand started and went to to a manufacturer [01:08:45] of skincare products and said, like, these are the products that I want to create. What sort of, you [01:08:50] know, supplies do you have? Can you do this? Can you change this? About the chemical formula? Can I speak [01:08:55] to your chemist? Can we can can we do this with it?

Payman Langroudi: How did you find that manufacturer?

Manrina Rhode: Through this lady [01:09:00] that she knew. She knew? Yeah. She was like an industry person. Uh, she’s. She was a dermatologist [01:09:05] because she had her own skincare line. So she had one. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So she knew a lot about it. And then she said, okay, now you need a designer. [01:09:10] And then I spoke to my patients. And then through there I got my designers and my patients really stepped up for me. [01:09:15]

Payman Langroudi: Packaging design.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. Branding design, packaging design, the trademark, um, [01:09:20] all of the trademark lawyers and all of this. Um, so I kind of reached out to my network and [01:09:25] then, um, and then created these five products and thought, okay, I’m going to do it. [01:09:30] I’m going to, you know, and I’m very much that D personality. He’s just like, I made a decision, I’m going to do it and it’s all going to be fine. [01:09:35] And also I trust everything’s going to be fine because my dad made me believe that. And so I kind of constantly brainwashed [01:09:40] by that which, which encourages me to always to push further and then realised, [01:09:45] um, how difficult marketing a skincare line is [01:09:50] and differentiating differentiating yourself from other people when you’re not a dermatologist. [01:09:55]

Payman Langroudi: It’s a mature market as well. I mean, I think you’d have a better chance with toothpaste.

Manrina Rhode: Definitely. [01:10:00] And dentist. Yeah, exactly. As a dentist and with a reputation that I have, I could come in as the industry [01:10:05] expert. But as soon as you go in as a cosmetic dentist who does been doing skincare [01:10:10] for a long time, but I’m selling the skincare line. Then, um, as I started talking to people [01:10:15] and looking at the amount of money I’d need to invest in then marketing. So the ongoing costs around trying to push [01:10:20] large amounts of product. Um, you know, I had a friend who was a buyer at the time for, [01:10:25] for Harvey Nicks, and I had someone who was a buyer at Harrods. And so I spoke to all of them and said, okay, you [01:10:30] know, can we get in? What can we do about this? And then it was a really bad time because it was during Covid. And they were actually, um, [01:10:35] in a way, it was a good time, like the lead up to it, because Covid gave me time to really focus on the skincare [01:10:40] brand. And it’s so interesting that you said about packaging because there’s like, you know, there’s so many pictures and and posts [01:10:45] and stories I’ve told about that time during Covid, sitting in that lovely weather and my mom’s garden just for [01:10:50] hours, staring at the packaging and this, this, this, you know, I never would have had time to do, really, [01:10:55] in my normal life. But I did because we had nothing else to do. And so I could get all of that finished. [01:11:00] But I think, yeah, once I created those products, I realised, um, that [01:11:05] this wasn’t going to be something that was going to be easy to put into a mass production market. And actually, [01:11:10] I’d be much better just keeping this as something optimised for my Instagram [01:11:15] followers and for my patients and, um, and not trying to shift large amounts [01:11:20] of product. So obviously we had the product that we’d already created and we we have, you know, obviously done repeat [01:11:25] orders since. But I’m not going to pretend that my product is a really big part of my business. That’s [01:11:30] a really big money-maker for me.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, number one, number one, Harvey Nicks and Harrods. Yeah. Hardly anyone makes money.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, [01:11:35] yeah, it was only about the prestige of it. Yeah. I mean, I know I used to be the dentist there. That’s why we came out. And [01:11:40] I would never go in with my own brand.

Payman Langroudi: They tend to be marketing things, putting. Putting your product in Harvey Nicks and hers. [01:11:45] And. But the other thing is, with product, it tends to be a mass market thing, you know? I mean, I [01:11:50] was I was pleased to see the price of your product. Yeah. Because the biggest mistake people make is making them too cheap. [01:11:55] Yeah. And then then it’s a total nightmare because, you know, you have to sell literally millions of [01:12:00] product. And but every time someone comes to me and it happens [01:12:05] all the time, I give a big health warning. Big health warning. I mean, we’ve been in [01:12:10] business 24 years. We have two toothpastes. It’s not like we have a massive range of flavoured. [01:12:15] And believe me, I’ve had all sorts of ideas on toothpaste. Yeah, both. Both fun ideas [01:12:20] and clinical ideas and so on. But it’s difficult. It’s not easy making money in products [01:12:25] at all. No, but, but, but if.

Manrina Rhode: You can make it. What a great way to make money.

Payman Langroudi: Well yeah. But [01:12:30] but at the same time, you know, people would say that about dentistry, right? People would say about all sorts of things. I [01:12:35] mean, the interesting thing is, you know, dentists start a practice [01:12:40] within six months in profit often. Mhm. Um, no product. [01:12:45] I mean, unless you’ve been super lucky to have some celebrity, something [01:12:50] happen to that product. No product is in profit within six months. No product often [01:12:55] 4 or 5 years of losses before they find the right moment, the right situation [01:13:00] to to make it hype up, you know. Um, and people, people who do [01:13:05] products are aware of that. Yeah. But as dentists, we’re not as dentists. We’re so used to [01:13:10] the thing being in profit on day one that as soon as it isn’t in profit, you think, oh, it’s never going to work. [01:13:15] And I find we give up too quickly because of that. Yeah. Then you’ve got issues. [01:13:20]

[TRANSITION]: Like.

Payman Langroudi: Use.

[TRANSITION]: By.

Payman Langroudi: Dates.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And minimum order quantities. [01:13:25] Yeah. And, you know, if you have to make 20,000 of something and [01:13:30] it has to be sold by this time next year. Yeah, that’s a lot. That’s a lot of stuff. Yeah. [01:13:35] Yeah yeah. So yeah a big health warning for anyone, by the way. I mean I had [01:13:40] Connor Bryant in my in where you’re sitting right now. And the way that guy was thinking [01:13:45] and the products, that guy was bringing up the engineering around it. You know, sometimes [01:13:50] you know, the right guy, the right person, the right situation. Absolutely. You know, and I think.

Manrina Rhode: It needs [01:13:55] to be a full time job rather than you can’t be a clinical dentist like me. And then, you know, my my passion is clinical [01:14:00] dentistry. Everything else that has come in the last few years has been a by-product of that. But at the end of the day, [01:14:05] my happy place is being a clinical dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And you know, the other thing is a lot of times you [01:14:10] feel like I want to be the kind of dentist that does X. For the sake of the argument, [01:14:15] I swore on your I was on your website and it was things like, uh, dietitian on site or something. So on site. [01:14:20] Yeah. When, when you break it all down. Yeah. You’d realise that the profit [01:14:25] is in the veneers right now. Maybe the dietitian and the whatever else [01:14:30] coach, body.

Manrina Rhode: Coach and DNA.

Payman Langroudi: Testing keeps those veneer cases coming in. But the profits in the [01:14:35] veneers, you know, and I often think about Invisalign, you know, that the biggest company in dentistry right now. Yeah. [01:14:40] Are they bothering doing composite and, you know, anything else? No, they’re doing a [01:14:45] liner. So they’ve just moved into bleaching interestingly. But but you know, they’re doing aligners. They’re doing aligners [01:14:50] very, very, very well. You know that that they could easily go in 12 different directions, but [01:14:55] they’re not. Let’s move on. So the practice itself. Mhm. Tell me about what [01:15:00] you thought it was going to be like to set up this practice. And what was it actually like. Yeah. [01:15:05]

Manrina Rhode: I was so clear. You talk about product. Let’s talk about opening a clinic. [01:15:10]

Payman Langroudi: You’re blessed. Right. Because you had some money behind you. I hope you didn’t spend it all on the product, but you had some money [01:15:15] behind you.

Manrina Rhode: I spent it all. All of the practice had already budded out. Go [01:15:20] on. Um, you keep saying, like about being blessed, but [01:15:25] I think, like, even at the beginning, when we opened the podcast and you said, oh, you’ve had a really blessed career or something, [01:15:30] but it’s not blessed. It’s like really hard work. It’s like a work ethic that’s been I don’t think any [01:15:35] of it was luck. I think all of it was just such so much hard work behind it that I don’t feel like [01:15:40] any of it fell. It fell into my lap.

Payman Langroudi: I didn’t mean it like that. I didn’t mean it like that.

Manrina Rhode: It was just. Yeah. Thanks. [01:15:45] Um. So, um. Yeah, I, I’d saved a fair amount. [01:15:50] Uh, ready? So I didn’t have to take, um, big loans to build my squat. [01:15:55] Uh, to build my dream squat. So I didn’t cut any corners. I built this beautiful clinic [01:16:00] of very expensive materials. You know, it was another 20 grand for the resin floor. I [01:16:05] got the resin floor, like, you know, wherever the vision was, it taken me 20 years to build a clinic. [01:16:10] I’d be talking about building my dream clinic since I was 25, and I built it at 43. [01:16:15] So, you know, it taken it taken too long.

Payman Langroudi: Every dentist has [01:16:20] got a dream clinic in their head. Right. So. And this one, it’s in Knightsbridge. Yes. So I guess from [01:16:25] your London sleep, I live there. Yeah. You live there anyway. Yeah. It’s not a shopfront. I know, I’m sorry [01:16:30] I haven’t been there, but. No, that’s okay. It’s in a, like a building.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, it’s in a building.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So [01:16:35] go on the process. The process. Let’s, let’s start with where it was going to be finding the site. Yeah.

Manrina Rhode: So [01:16:40] yeah, I mean I think, I think the way I did things was really interesting and I would be, I would, I would advise [01:16:45] it to other dentists who are thinking about setting up a squat. So what I did was, um, [01:16:50] I decided to first of all try out principle life, um, by renting a [01:16:55] space like they’ve got with until like until. Yeah. So that kind of did until before until existed. [01:17:00] Um, and decided to rent a space and build my clinic and have my own list and my own [01:17:05] team, um, without, um, overheads. So I started an so there was a nearby dentist [01:17:10] who I’d met through the women’s dental network. Yeah. And, um, I remember her saying that she [01:17:15] was in hospital two days a week in her clinic was empty. So I contacted her and said, how would you feel about [01:17:20] setting up an associate agreement with me where you don’t pay me, but I pay [01:17:25] you. And I will take over your surgery two days a week, and I’ll brand it with rental thing. Yeah, [01:17:30] it was a rental. It was an associate agreement, which meant I didn’t need CQC or any. You know, these. I needed [01:17:35] some insurances, but not all of them.

Manrina Rhode: And, um, and so she was [01:17:40] kind of like, oh, is this legit? Is this something. And I was like, people do it. And like, since then I’ve heard Sandeep Kumar’s story and he did [01:17:45] it as well, many, many years ago. So she asked around and people said, yeah, you know, it does happen. And [01:17:50] asked if Chatwin said that he’d done it as well. So she started getting some reassurance that [01:17:55] this is something people do. And she agreed to let me rent out her clinic two days a week. So I feel [01:18:00] like that was such a brilliant decision that I made, because I cut down my associate job from three days a week to [01:18:05] two days a week, and I rented this clinic two days, two days a week. And then I had still had a day to do [01:18:10] admin. Um, and she started off doing all the roles myself. So, um, [01:18:15] I was working with a temp nurse at, uh, at London Smog Clinic at the time anyway. And so I [01:18:20] said to that temp nurse, come and temp with me when I’m working there. So I have the same nurse all week. Um, and [01:18:25] I did my own administrative booking patients in. And how did.

Payman Langroudi: You get the patients? [01:18:30]

Manrina Rhode: So, um, my, my business is all about the new patient. So even at the London [01:18:35] Small Clinic, about 80% of the patients that I saw came contacted the clinic for me. [01:18:40] They they called up the social. The social. Yeah. So the reputation I built for myself, either from [01:18:45] word of mouth because there’s 20 years of my veneers out there and um, from so word of mouth referrals [01:18:50] and from social media, but very much so from Instagram. Um, people say, oh, if Instagram [01:18:55] closed down, oh, you know, what would happen to your life? And it’s all a big joke. But like, literally what would happen [01:19:00] to my business? Um, our clients right now come from all over the world, um, because of my, my Instagram presence. [01:19:05] And so they find me there, and then they’re sold on me there. You know, we had a patient [01:19:10] recently at Drmr who, uh, found six cosmetic dentists around the world, went to see [01:19:15] all of them for a consultation out of them, decided to to have his teeth done with me. Flew, flew down from New York. [01:19:20] I did his veneers for him. Um, and then now I’ve just done his wife’s teeth as well. She also flew down from New [01:19:25] York and we did them. So, um, you know, that’s how they find you, right? [01:19:30] That’s how they’re looking for the world experts. They’re looking on social media, and we we I very much [01:19:35] position myself there as that.

Manrina Rhode: And that’s because now because of the 20 years of grafting that I did, [01:19:40] of sitting on these boards and writing these lectures and doing these lectures and writing these these journals and editor [01:19:45] committees and judging these awards and all these things you’ve done in dentistry. It builds up your presence on Google [01:19:50] as well. So you put Marina into Google in the first three pages. Is about me also helps that Marina is [01:19:55] a really uncommon name. So so then they kind of look and what they come on one platform, but once [01:20:00] they start deep diving, they find there’s all this stuff that keeps telling them that I’m the expert. So so [01:20:05] I had these patients that were contacting London Smile anyway and asking for me. First of all, I asked, um, [01:20:10] I kind of realised that and then said to Tim, oh said to my boss at the time, can we change my percentage for these patients [01:20:15] that are that are asking for me because I was on this, this sliding scale down from 35%, um, up [01:20:20] to 50. And he was like, no, that’s not going to work for the business, which I understand now [01:20:25] as a principle why that wouldn’t work with with London overheads. Um, but then just thought, well, it’s a it’s a missed opportunity [01:20:30] if I don’t try and, you know, do this for myself and also, you know, if [01:20:35] we really want to get deep here, uh, again something that I don’t know that I’ve talked about is that, that that maybe, [01:20:40] um, I had limited myself because I had a belief, um, [01:20:45] that I needed to, to be an associate and leave that time in [01:20:50] my life for a husband and children.

Manrina Rhode: So I didn’t want to get so busy in my own [01:20:55] business or become such a power, you know, power businesswoman, which I knew I could be. Um, [01:21:00] and let that take away from from me achieving those goals because I didn’t have time for it or I was [01:21:05] too stressed for it or whatever. So because that’s been such an important thing for me. Um, and but then I think [01:21:10] by the time I kind of hit 40 and that was like during Covid, so then everyone was [01:21:15] having these mind opening things and I kind of thought, okay, you know, I can’t put my business [01:21:20] career or my entrepreneurial career on hold. And by then I started dabbling in the skincare line and got a bit of a [01:21:25] taste for it, created this brand and then launched my course as well and thought this is going really well. You [01:21:30] know, my course sold out like for a full year immediately. And um, I [01:21:35] wanted.

Payman Langroudi: To do the clinic.

Manrina Rhode: I wanted to do the clinic and decided it was time to not put myself [01:21:40] this on hold for that. Let’s just do this. And then there are people that do everything and I can do it and let’s just [01:21:45] do it. Makes sense. So yeah. So I don’t know what I was where I was going with this, but yes. Then I rented the two spaces. My patients were [01:21:50] coming in anyway, booked them in myself. It was a bit strange for them because I was the receptionist. Yeah I was, [01:21:55] I have done every role in my clinic.

Payman Langroudi: Did it turn to okay, now I want the super place.

Manrina Rhode: The place I started looking, [01:22:00] so I started renting Claire’s okay. Yeah, this is working. I’m making really good money. Not sharing my [01:22:05] my my take home, my gross with my principle anymore. And just paying this rent, you know, 400, [01:22:10] £450 rent a day. Um, but taking 20 grand a day, like, you know, it was [01:22:15] it was nuts. And, um, and then, um. [01:22:20]

Payman Langroudi: Found the site.

Manrina Rhode: With difficulty, so knew that I wanted to not be [01:22:25] a shop front. I wanted to have a, I wanted to stay in Knightsbridge because I lived there, and that’s my hood. Um, [01:22:30] and it’s easy to commute from Heathrow and for whatever reason, is my heard. Yeah. And, [01:22:35] um, wanted to not be shop front because it’s private. What we do, it’s cosmetic treatments, [01:22:40] and it’s not nice to have a shopfront like that. Patients want to be able to get in a discreet taxi and eat. And what I was building here [01:22:45] was an ultra luxury, high net worth environment, which was based around what [01:22:50] I what I’d experienced at London, but even more so I was like, okay, let me think back to London. Why did I when we [01:22:55] were in Harvey Nicks, we used to have a back end exit because, fine, we were in Harvey Nicks, but they needed a secret place to escape. [01:23:00] Okay, how am I going to have that secret space? Okay, how about if I’m on a first floor? How about if I’m on Brompton Road around [01:23:05] the corner? I knew that I wanted to be on a on a first floor, not on a shop front. I knew that I wanted to [01:23:10] have really high ceilings, and I knew that I wanted to have windows, because in my 20 years of my [01:23:15] career, I never had a window. And so that’s that was my criteria.

Payman Langroudi: Underestimate that, don’t they? [01:23:20] I mean, the four walls of a dental surgery, you spend hours and hours and hours on that. Yeah. So then, [01:23:25] okay, you found the place. You started doing it up. Found the place? Did everything go wrong as it does [01:23:30] when.

Manrina Rhode: You prices up? Yeah, it was a disaster. It was the most stressful.

Payman Langroudi: Did you overspend like, so much? [01:23:35]

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, twice as much than I planned to spend. And is that.

Payman Langroudi: Your advice now to tell people to plan that [01:23:40] it’s going to cost twice as much as you think I.

Manrina Rhode: Do. When they talk to me, I tell them that’s what happened. So either you can choose to [01:23:45] build a clinic where you’re not trying to build. I was trying to build the best of everything, right? You can just be [01:23:50] like, no, I’m going for the dream, a cheaper chair. I’m going to have lino. Like, either you just that’s your vibe for your clinic, and then [01:23:55] you’re going to offer cheap treatments as well and go for the mass market. And if you’re doing that, there’s no harm in that. And probably you [01:24:00] could stay within budget. But if you want to buy a stern Weber and you want to have voice activated blinds, and you [01:24:05] want to have, you know, sliding doors that open up into a secret room and all the things that I, that I wanted to have, [01:24:10] um, it’s not cheap and and yeah, it wasn’t cheap, so. Um. [01:24:15] And so.

Payman Langroudi: Then then. Okay. You open the doors.

Manrina Rhode: Oh. So was it the stress of off [01:24:20] building the squad and how horribly stressful it was? Like, I feel like, you know, I went [01:24:25] through the work itself. Yeah. The build, the build was horribly stressful. If you think these big [01:24:30] life events in my life were my divorce or my father died, then so can we put the build in there as well?

Payman Langroudi: What [01:24:35] kind of idea did you have about, you know, the variables around building a Dental?

Manrina Rhode: I had no idea. [01:24:40]

Payman Langroudi: So who helped you with that?

Manrina Rhode: I had to gather advice along the way from everyone and anyone that I could [01:24:45] just ask. The beauty is that I’m not scared to ask people like some people are, but I’m not. I’ll just pick up the phone. And as [01:24:50] much as I don’t expect people to be scared to ask me things, ask me whatever you like, whenever you like and I will [01:24:55] ask you whatever I like, whenever I like. And so I just thought, well, you’ve done it. How do you do this? I’ve got a friend, Mohanlal [01:25:00] Nathwani. He’s amazing and we work worked together at London many years ago, and we’ve been friends since. [01:25:05] And he’s got five clinics. And so I called him a lot. Like once I stopped calling him, he was a [01:25:10] bit like called me and he was like, are you all right? And I was like, I’m just settled. That’s why I’m not calling you every, you know, every week, like [01:25:15] having a breakdown. Because I didn’t know anything. It was such a massive learning curve. Um, [01:25:20] building a clinic. I never built anything in my life. So knowing how to build that, [01:25:25] knowing about CQC, no idea about CQC, like, you know, the requirement other than when we had an inspection and we had [01:25:30] to read the the policies. Um, but really no idea. No idea about managing a team, [01:25:35] no idea about how to interview and hire a team. Um, no idea about any of it. All [01:25:40] I knew how to be was a really awesome clinical dentist and an awesome on social media. [01:25:45] That is what I know how to do. The rest of it was so new.

Payman Langroudi: And also very different. Being [01:25:50] the boss to being one of the team members.

Manrina Rhode: So different.

Payman Langroudi: And you must have come across [01:25:55] that situation now.

Manrina Rhode: Such a learning.

Payman Langroudi: Curve. I mean, I always just think it can’t be very different because [01:26:00] as an associate, I used to really work for the boss, which I suppose you did too. But then as the [01:26:05] boss, it’s very different, isn’t it? You almost can’t get too close to your team. In a way.

Manrina Rhode: I had [01:26:10] no idea how to manage it. If managing team or understanding how to deal with them, like even [01:26:15] just things like they’re making these mistakes that for me like the most obvious thing in the world [01:26:20] and then not understanding that those things are obvious. Like, you know, you tell a team member [01:26:25] to do something and they just wouldn’t get it or they’d get it so horribly wrong and think that it was okay. I [01:26:30] couldn’t understand.

Payman Langroudi: It. So an example like an email, the way they wrote an email to a patient or something.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, something [01:26:35] like that. One dental nurse who gave the, um, gave the lab work from the [01:26:40] lab fridge and with it gave the the the box of Botox, you know, £500 worth [01:26:45] of Botox to the lab. And that’s a prescription item that’s worth £500, that’s now [01:26:50] gone off because it’s not in the fridge. But how did you do that? How did you pick up the Botox and not see [01:26:55] that that’s not lab work. Like, I can’t even imagine that being a thing. And then what do you do [01:27:00] about that? I’m not going to take £500 off his wage because he’s cost me £500 of material. [01:27:05] But. And how do I not get upset about that? I’m not going to get I’m not allowed to get upset about it. And I’m not allowed [01:27:10] to say that it’s incompetent because you’re not allowed to say someone.

Payman Langroudi: Someone in our team made a £20,000 mistake.

Manrina Rhode: Wow. [01:27:15]

Payman Langroudi: Um, and some of our users are still suffering with that mistake. And it was that [01:27:20] someone just didn’t check the size of something, you know? And and 20 grand later, we’re [01:27:25] just managing to fix that.

Manrina Rhode: One of my team have just made a £10,000 mistake. And, [01:27:30] like, what do you do with it? You can’t fire them. Or did you fire them over it?

Payman Langroudi: No, no no no. You know, the the [01:27:35] history was, uh, made up for it, but but you know, it’s one of those things. It’s one of those things. [01:27:40] By the way, your team still. What, 12 people?

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. 13.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Wait till it gets to 30 [01:27:45] or 40 people. Or, by the way, I was just at Alicante with all the group dentists.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, [01:27:50] the Dsos 400.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, 600 practices. Right. That [01:27:55] amazing in one sense. Right. But in another sense, when I’ve seen what can happen with 40 people. Yeah, yeah. [01:28:00] Stuff you had no idea.

Manrina Rhode: Stuff. Really clear guidelines.

Payman Langroudi: Stuff you had no idea about. Like I never thought there would [01:28:05] be bullying at enlighten. Oh, and there was bullying going on. I had no idea about sexual harassment. [01:28:10] I had no idea about it. Yeah.

Manrina Rhode: Someone came and said oh, so and so keeps, like touching me inappropriately or kissing [01:28:15] my forehead. And I’m like, what do I do with that? Like call her like, do you know what I mean? I never dealt with [01:28:20] any of these things before. The things I’ve had to deal with in the last two years, it’s all been a really [01:28:25] steep learning curve, which is very exciting, but really scary as well. Like in the during the build, uh, [01:28:30] like just the level of I’ve never experienced that level of chronic stress as I [01:28:35] did during that build. Like your.

Payman Langroudi: Builders. Where do you find them? Apollo. [01:28:40]

Manrina Rhode: So they were great. You know that.

Payman Langroudi: That in itself, you never hear that. You never hear. My builders [01:28:45] were great. Oh, yeah. So you’re watching.

Manrina Rhode: Guys you.

Payman Langroudi: Actually had you actually had a better build [01:28:50] than most. They were really.

Manrina Rhode: Delayed. I had to postpone two CQC inspections and they they made me [01:28:55] pull my own hair out, like, scream like I was just like, what do I do? Just one shoot me. [01:29:00] Like I love my life and I don’t want to end it, but that just let me. Let me free because [01:29:05] of Apollo. So, you know, let’s not get get it twisted. But they were great and the results [01:29:10] were great and the end results great. And everyone says that too. They’re like, by the time you get to the end of it and you see what you’ve created, [01:29:15] it’s like giving, you know, giving birth to a child, apparently, that, you know, you don’t, uh, you [01:29:20] don’t, you don’t you don’t feel it. You just think, okay, we went through all that, but we got through it. And actually the result was great. [01:29:25] So I’m really pleased with what they did.

Payman Langroudi: It’s still early days, right? How long?

Manrina Rhode: Two years in.

Payman Langroudi: Oh it’s nothing. It’s nothing. [01:29:30] Yeah. Um, now I want to talk about your course. Yeah. What made you want [01:29:35] to teach? Was it that so many people were asking you already and you were teaching? [01:29:40] Um. By the way, it’s a thrill teaching, right? Oh, it’s awesome.

Manrina Rhode: It’s so awesome. So I was so [01:29:45] supported throughout my career by Surinder and then by Tiff and then by Tim Bradstock, Smith Qureshi, [01:29:50] Smith, like such massive mentors in my life that taught me so much. You know, [01:29:55] I saw Tim Bradstock Smith at an event last week, and I just had to go up to him and thank him [01:30:00] and be like, you know, I had no idea when I was your associate at London. Smile. For all those years and [01:30:05] everything you were doing, I had no idea what’s involved in principle life. I can’t believe how clueless I was and have [01:30:10] even I already had so much respect for you. I have so much respect for you now, seeing all that, all the [01:30:15] hats you wear and all the tabs you have open to keep a business running at that level. So, [01:30:20] um, yeah, they really supported me and I feel like I was really blessed, uh, throughout [01:30:25] my journey with that, that I had these, these supportive mentors that allowed me to do [01:30:30] the sort of dentistry that I wanted to do in a really a really supportive environment. I mean, a [01:30:35] classic example of of that is I did the Nobel Biocare year long implant course [01:30:40] and then placed one implant.

Manrina Rhode: And then, because I didn’t feel supported in that, never placed another implant. [01:30:45] And that was I won’t say that’s a year of my life wasted because I do restore implants, but that’s how [01:30:50] that’s what can happen. And I hear that story too much about people doing facial aesthetics courses, cosmetic courses, [01:30:55] like whatever it is, and they’re not doing anything because they’re not supported. So I guess the initial idea with my veneer [01:31:00] course, part of it was and it sounds like everyone was asking for it, but [01:31:05] everyone was asking for it. Like, you know, they would message me on Instagram and they’d say, do you teach this? Is there somewhere we could learn this? [01:31:10] And there really wasn’t anywhere in the UK that was offering a course that they could go to at the time. And [01:31:15] I’d done a lot of my education in the States. And so I thought, you know, I’d really like to teach [01:31:20] this. I’d really like I didn’t have anyone that I was mentoring. Did you have.

Payman Langroudi: Loads of photos already?

Manrina Rhode: Of course. [01:31:25] I’ve taken photos of every case I’ve done since 2003. Yeah, like that’s how many [01:31:30] photos I have.

Payman Langroudi: Thousands. Putting this course together. People again, underestimate what it takes to. [01:31:35] I mean, how many days is the course?

Manrina Rhode: It’s four days. I’ve just I, I shorten [01:31:40] lengthen the days in Shoreditch to three. But up until now it’s been four days. So we’re going to try the first cohort at three [01:31:45] days. But it’s been a four day course.

Payman Langroudi: Four days of teaching and you do a case. Yeah.

Manrina Rhode: Live patient [01:31:50] six appointments with a live patient all the way through the smile makeover.

Payman Langroudi: But they don’t all do a live patient.

Manrina Rhode: No, you would [01:31:55] love to bring that in. But for now they watch me. It’s small group teaching, and they come in the room with me. And then [01:32:00] we’ve got cameras set up on there so you can see it on the screens. And we really go through and live the things that go wrong [01:32:05] and the things that you can, you can, you know, so they can see. Because inevitably some drama always happens [01:32:10] during a video. It’s always, oh, what’s this, some blood. Oh there’s this. What are you going to do now? Oh, the veneer [01:32:15] dropped like into their mouth. What are you.

Payman Langroudi: Going to do? What does it cost the delegate to come on this four day course.

Manrina Rhode: £2,600 [01:32:20] for the three day course now. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:32:25] how many do you have?

Manrina Rhode: Well, I’m only going to run two next year, so it’s all changing [01:32:30] a little bit.

Payman Langroudi: Many. There’s not many spaces available.

Manrina Rhode: So what I was running three a year. Yeah. And [01:32:35] and there weren’t many spaces available because it was really important to me that it was small group teaching, and the people [01:32:40] that came out of the course were good, providing good small makeovers. [01:32:45] So what I didn’t want is to just it wasn’t a money making scheme. I don’t earn more from running designing [01:32:50] smalls than I do from working in clinic that day, but.

Payman Langroudi: Definitely not right.

Manrina Rhode: Definitely not. Well, yeah, [01:32:55] yeah definitely not. But what it does do is allows me to to [01:33:00] improve the level of cosmetic dentistry within the well, not even the UK because they come [01:33:05] from all over the world to learn. We’ve had delegates from Thailand, Italy, Holland, Dubai and all over. [01:33:10] So so yeah, there was that. But then I realised that it wasn’t enough [01:33:15] and I didn’t want to mass produce it. So what I did during Covid also was film [01:33:20] an online version so that delegates who were coming from all over the world could learn online, [01:33:25] but then filmed that in 2021 and haven’t launched it because they haven’t had time to. [01:33:30] I’m only getting around to putting that out now.

Payman Langroudi: Did you do that by yourself or did you have a partner?

Manrina Rhode: No, by myself [01:33:35] with a videographer.

Payman Langroudi: But your own videographer. It wasn’t like some firm came.

Manrina Rhode: No, everything I’ve done [01:33:40] is myself. Yeah. Nice. And, um. And then. And [01:33:45] then now I’ve just launched my my mentorship program, which is.

Payman Langroudi: Only for delegates. [01:33:50] Is that how it works?

Manrina Rhode: No, it’s really, really exciting. And it’s open to dentists around the world. [01:33:55] Yeah. Um, and what it is, is basically having me in your pocket, um, [01:34:00] in your phone. So, um, I spoke to this, this business coach, and he was like, oh, you know, you should mentor dentists [01:34:05] and you can charge them 50 grand a year. And then for that, you can just answer all their questions and support [01:34:10] them for one year and get, you know, you should offer this. And I was like, I don’t really want to do that. 50 [01:34:15] grand sounds like a lot of money. And I don’t like the idea of what that comes with. So yeah, no thank [01:34:20] you. Um, but I would like to mentor and support dentists because far too many of them, they come [01:34:25] through my face to face course. And they know that after they’ve done that, they can reach out to me and ask me questions. And we have our Facebook group. [01:34:30] But like, how do you really support them? How do you make sure that they’re continuing and they’re pushing and that they’re [01:34:35] doing these cases and they’ve got someone they can ask questions to. And also my delegates, like [01:34:40] they go through my courses. And then when I’d be running another course, you know, they’d message me and they’d have FOMO and be like, oh, [01:34:45] I wish I was there.

Manrina Rhode: Like at the end of the course, they’re like, what’s next? You know, what can we do now? So I was like, how do I support them? [01:34:50] So so I’ve set up this program. It’s a WhatsApp group for the dentists [01:34:55] that are accepted on to the program. And it’s I’m saying dentists. I wonder whether it should be dental therapists as [01:35:00] well. And potentially it could be um, there’s they can email my team and ask an unlimited number of [01:35:05] questions about how do you do this? How do you do that? Um, we’re going to have bi monthly zoom calls. [01:35:10] So Wednesdays at 7 p.m., we’re going to jump on zoom for an open mic session. And we’re going to go through cases or anything [01:35:15] they want to go through. Um, we’re going to have quarterly in-person meetings so we can [01:35:20] meet face to face. So in London we all get together and we’ll go through different parts that are important for [01:35:25] for the pillars of the course, which are mindset like creating a winning mindset, cosmetic dentistry. So [01:35:30] anything related to cosmetic dentistry and building a five part, five star practice. So how to provide that five [01:35:35] star service? Um, and I think there’s so many dentists who learn dentistry and were not taught [01:35:40] cosmetic dentistry at university.

Manrina Rhode: And then they come out and then they’re like, well, now what? How do I do cosmetic dentistry? [01:35:45] And this way they can ask questions. They can support each other. The principles in the you know, there’s also a lot an issue [01:35:50] with hiring at the moment. The principals can find their associates because they know they’re of the same mindset. The [01:35:55] associates can find their private jobs because, you know, there’ll be people there that are interested in cosmetic dentistry. [01:36:00] I hope that I build this cohort of dentists, of like minded dentists where they can [01:36:05] all support each other, where it’s very much not ego and not putting each other down, but all just having [01:36:10] each other’s backs and and moving forward together and hopefully also build a cohort [01:36:15] that as I build my other clinics, which obviously will happen with that plan. Yeah, definitely. Um, [01:36:20] that I can bring these dentists on board that have been within my mentorship program. Um, [01:36:25] and they’ll definitely be be incentives available for dentists who who stay for long enough. It’s £250 [01:36:30] a month, including VAT for the first 50 dentists. So it’s really affordable [01:36:35] and it’s jump in, jump out. So if they jump in and you know, if they’ve not got a good month or they’re going away for the month and they [01:36:40] don’t want to be in it, they just leave the mentorship program.

Manrina Rhode: Um, and then with that, they’ll get 20% off my face [01:36:45] to face courses and my online course modules that I’m launching. You know, they’ve I’ve just written a course [01:36:50] about gum filler. There is no course about gum filler in the world that anyone can find. Um, but [01:36:55] I learned this technique in America about six years ago, and I’ve been doing a lot of cases since, and people keep messaging [01:37:00] me and again, it’s like, oh, people keep messaging me, asking me to teach them, but they do. So I’ve written the course and [01:37:05] that will go up on the online module. Within this mentorship program, you get 20% off all that. So [01:37:10] if you even, you know, coming on one face to face, course you’re going to get it’s going to be worth however many months of [01:37:15] of mentorship. So I don’t know, I feel like it’s a way for me to be able to [01:37:20] support and help a large number of dentists. Um, and by helping [01:37:25] 50 dentists, you know, I can help thousands of patients and up the quality [01:37:30] of cosmetic dentistry in the UK or potentially around the world, um, by offering insights [01:37:35] into into the way that I do things, the way that I’ve evolved my practice in my 22 years experience. [01:37:40]

Payman Langroudi: And it’s a buzz, right?

Manrina Rhode: It’s really, really exciting. And if you could tell [01:37:45] when I just when you mentioned it just now that I got excited, it’s a buzz because I’m excited. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Teaching’s a buzz. Isn’t that about it? [01:37:50] I mean, I was talking to Basil Mizrahi. Mhm. Yeah. And I said to him what do you [01:37:55] like about teaching. And he said I like it when I put a case up and people’s mouths open. Yeah. [01:38:00] So he says he has a bit of ego about that. Yeah. And and that’s Basil Mizrahi now, [01:38:05] you know, he doesn’t need to have anyone but but it’s a buzz even.

Manrina Rhode: He likes to be told.

Payman Langroudi: Well, even he [01:38:10] likes to be.

Manrina Rhode: We all like to be told. Well done. Exactly.

[TRANSITION]: Exactly right.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I like that. [01:38:15] Um, if you do do other clinics, it does make sense that you go to the doctor, Mr. [01:38:20] Brand, that I love so much.

Manrina Rhode: What would the Mr. stand for? Does it.

Payman Langroudi: Just talk to Mrs. is the name [01:38:25] of the brand, but.

Manrina Rhode: Then that’s like it’s a man’s brand and it’s not.

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t matter. I mean if you let’s say you’re [01:38:30] opening one in Edinburgh and one in Dubai. Yeah. You can’t be in all of them. It can’t be doctor will be.

Manrina Rhode: Dmr [01:38:35] and and Del Mar could be derma. It can be dreamer. It can be you can call it doctor. [01:38:40] Mr.. But I feel like as as.

Payman Langroudi: You just don’t get.

Manrina Rhode: A feminist. Um, it wouldn’t make sense for [01:38:45] me to call my clinic doctor. Mr.. Why would there be a mr. in my title in a female owned business where [01:38:50] I am the sole owner of my business?

Payman Langroudi: I will tell you, it’s just a cool name.

Manrina Rhode: No, Payman. No. Just [01:38:55] no.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get on to our final questions and I’m going to try something new this time. [01:39:00] A bit of a bit of a sort of a quick fire, and then we’ll get to our actual final [01:39:05] questions. Best working day.

Manrina Rhode: The [01:39:10] best working day of my career ever. Yeah. Wow. I [01:39:15] mean, the first thing that comes to mind is, um. [01:39:20] I love doing full mouth cases. We block off seven hours for them, and I [01:39:25] do the upper jaw and the lower jaw, and in the middle we get our patients are fresh juice and [01:39:30] they’re my favourite because I go into a flow state and when they’re [01:39:35] booked in, I just love it because I know that for seven hours no one’s going to bother me. I’m gonna put my music on and I’m going to work on this patient’s mouth. [01:39:40] And, you know, the nurse gets into a flow with me. The patient just lets me get on with it, and it’s almost like meditation. [01:39:45] And then at the end of it, it’s almost like I emerge from it because I wasn’t even present. I was just there working [01:39:50] through intuitively what was the right thing to do. Um, there’s this beautiful smile. So [01:39:55] if I if I wanted to think of of all the full mouths I’ve done and which one was the best one, [01:40:00] that’s difficult. But, you know, the recent full mouths come to mind just and just how enjoyable [01:40:05] they were.

Payman Langroudi: So that that over, for instance, the day you opened your clinic or whatever, [01:40:10] you know, whatever other day.

Manrina Rhode: Uh, yeah. Because probably [01:40:15] the first working day of us opening our clinic was was exciting. I just love I love those film. [01:40:20] I love any of those formats. I love them when they’re in the diary. Like, for me, especially now we’re [01:40:25] running the business is really stressful when I know that I can go into that flow state and just get away from [01:40:30] everything. No one’s going to ask me any questions for those seven hours, and I can just and I’m actually [01:40:35] achieving something and creating something and doing probably what I’m best at in life. Like [01:40:40] probably porcelain veneers or the thing that not even I’m best at in dentistry, but probably the best at in life. Like it’s something. [01:40:45] I’m just very good at that.

Payman Langroudi: But these days, the way, the way you do them, it’s not the fit [01:40:50] day isn’t as exciting anymore because we already know what it’s going to look like. Yeah. Yes. The prep.

Manrina Rhode: Day. Yeah yeah yeah. [01:40:55] The prep days, that seven day, eight hour day. I’m thinking about prepping those teeth and getting in that that vibe [01:41:00] like, yeah, it’s worst day.

Payman Langroudi: Or if you want translate that to most difficult [01:41:05] patient, oh.

Manrina Rhode: God, I won one. There are probably many, but one comes to mind. [01:41:10] Um, I had this patient, and, um, she was seeing [01:41:15] this dentist at, um. I think she was seeing, I don’t know if it was at Kira’s [01:41:20] practice or somewhere. Um. And he moved to Edinburgh. He moved back [01:41:25] to Edinburgh, and, um, she wanted him to do her veneers and then she was like, oh, [01:41:30] he’s like, I can’t do them. I’m moving back to Edinburgh, I think. And then she said, oh, well, what lab do you use? And he was [01:41:35] like, oh, I use Precision Dental Studio. And then so she said, okay, I’ll call them and find out who I should go to. [01:41:40] Who should I go to my my videos? He said, I don’t know. So I’ve been working with precision for years. I love them. [01:41:45] And um, she called precision and said, oh, I need a dent veneer dentist. [01:41:50] And they were like, oh, you know, we get most of our work from, from Marina. And so you might want to go to her. [01:41:55] So she was like, fine. So she came to London Smile Clinic to see me. And she was like, oh, you’ve been recommended by precision [01:42:00] by, by your lab. And I was like, oh, wow, my lab must really love me. That’s nice. Um, and [01:42:05] so, um, this woman started working with her, and then as I got to know her, [01:42:10] I realised that that dentist probably didn’t move back to Edinburgh. He probably just didn’t want to see her. And then I kind [01:42:15] of realised, um, that, do my lab really love me or do they hate me because this woman was was [01:42:20] so difficult? But there was there was something, there was ego in it. And the ego was that my lab had [01:42:25] referred me this patient. And so I’m going to do it and I’m going to do a great job because it’s been sent to me by someone and they’ve never [01:42:30] sent me a patient before. What was the.

Payman Langroudi: Problem with her?

Manrina Rhode: She was she didn’t seem to understand [01:42:35] what I was saying. She had she was fixated on a certain thing and I was like, oh, just trust the [01:42:40] process. Trust the process. And typically, because I deal with with patients who are tense, like, [01:42:45] you know, people say that, oh, a patient fainted or a patient cried. I’m like, dude, like a patient faints. [01:42:50] In my surgery at least once a month, a patient cries at least once a month, if not more. It’s very common for my patients [01:42:55] to faint and cry, and not necessarily because of what I’m doing, just because it’s before I’ve even said or done anything. Because it’s [01:43:00] just that sort of environment like, you know, it’s so it’s such an emotional environment for them. And [01:43:05] um, so I think I kind of tried to explain to her what we were going to do with her veneers and the plan and [01:43:10] then and then went through, got her wax up done from, from precision. And then she came in on, on, on prep [01:43:15] day and then on prep day, I said to her, um, okay, this is the wax up, this is what we’re going to [01:43:20] do. And then she was like, oh, I don’t know about the laterals. I don’t think I really like the laterals. And I was like, okay, that’s fine. [01:43:25] That’s the whole point of this process. I’m going to put this on for you today. I’m not going to change it today because your [01:43:30] lips are going to be numb, but you’re coming back for your review tomorrow, and then we’re going to perfect everything in your mouth. And only once it’s perfect [01:43:35] will we get precision to make your your veneers. So we’ve got tomorrow. We’ve got lots of time to do that and we’ll sort that out. Then [01:43:40] she’s like, oh no, I’m just not sure about these laterals. I just, I just don’t know. And I was like, I understand that, but [01:43:45] it’s okay because I’m going to be able to change them for you. I won’t change them today because I don’t change fixated.

Payman Langroudi: And she wasn’t.

Manrina Rhode: She [01:43:50] wouldn’t understand it. And then, you know, eventually I was like, this is too difficult. And then I was like, [01:43:55] I can’t I can’t communicate with you. You’re not understanding what I’m saying, and you don’t trust [01:44:00] me, so I can’t do your veneers. And then she was like, But I’ve taken time off from work and you have to do my veneers. [01:44:05] And I was like, I don’t have to actually, and I’m not going to. So I’m really sorry. [01:44:10] We’re unable to communicate and I won’t be I won’t be doing your veneers today. And then I left the room and went to the back, [01:44:15] um, where the patients couldn’t get to. And then she just stood at reception for like, three hours saying, [01:44:20] I’m going to call the GDC. Wow. I’ve taken time off work for this. I was like, good luck. I [01:44:25] didn’t come out. But like I thought, good luck with the GDC, telling them that I refused to do your veneer case [01:44:30] rather than, you know, that I was insisting you have veneers and and you know, you’ve taken. [01:44:35] I’m going to I want the time back for the time I took off from work because you’re refusing to and all of this and that. And she just, you know, it was so [01:44:40] awkward for the whole team, and it was so awkward for the patients that were coming in to see the other clinicians. And it was just awkward that she [01:44:45] was stood there. And then there’s also kind of that awkward, like, how far, how nuts is she and how far is she going to take this?

Payman Langroudi: You [01:44:50] missed the the bullet. Really?

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. I’m glad I didn’t prep her. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, I don’t [01:44:55] know if that was the worst working day, but it was definitely one that always springs to mind as a memory of just like, oh. [01:45:00]

[TRANSITION]: This.

Payman Langroudi: Course you’ve been on.

Manrina Rhode: Oh, well, recently I went on that. Mastering [01:45:05] your Invisalign with Sandeep Kumar. Oh, yeah. And it really blew my mind. And then I read his book [01:45:10] and it blew my mind. And now we’re friends. And I really have a lot of respect for him. And it’s only all just happened in the last [01:45:15] year or so. Um, but I don’t know if that’s if it’s the best course I’ve ever been on, but [01:45:20] it’s the best course I’ve been on recently for sure. I’ve been on amazing courses in my life.

Payman Langroudi: What sticks out?

Manrina Rhode: Oh, [01:45:25] Pascal. Magnets. I also think about, like, when I went to LA with the BCD, the whole board went, we did that [01:45:30] course out there. And um, that changed some, some way that I practice obviously aesthetic advantage with Larry Rosenthal, [01:45:35] you know, back in 2004, flying in and out of New York for three years, um, learning my veneers [01:45:40] from him.

Payman Langroudi: Of course, you’re desperate.

Manrina Rhode: To go on Dawson and Occlusion. And Dawson was amazing. Sorry. [01:45:45] We’re all amazing back. I did them back then. 2004 a desperate to go on. I’d like to go on, [01:45:50] um, a course. Course? I tried to a course or spear or, [01:45:55] um. I think it was. Is it the Voice Academy that I registered for? Uh, was [01:46:00] it course, or is it spear that I registered for later this year? Um, I’ll tell you now. And, [01:46:05] um, there was a waiting list of 90. Yeah, of course, a waiting list [01:46:10] of 99 people ahead of me to to book the course a year in advance. You have to book the course three [01:46:15] years in advance to get on, to get an actual place on it. I was like, wow, you know what? But I guess the only [01:46:20] thing with it is that to do it, you have to go back to the beginning. So I’m like, I’ve been doing this for 22 years and you’re going [01:46:25] to make me go back to like occlusion. Yeah. You know, so that’s that’s going to be interesting once I’m finally accepted [01:46:30] onto that course. But I’m excited to go to Seattle and do that.

Payman Langroudi: Best piece of advice you’ve ever been given.

[TRANSITION]: Oh. [01:46:40]

Manrina Rhode: So many pieces. So many pieces of advice.

Payman Langroudi: Great [01:46:45] piece of advice. When you say best know it’s so difficult.

Manrina Rhode: When it’s best, it’s sort of pressure to get this right. Uh, [01:46:50] great piece of advice I’ve been given is, um, [01:46:55] uh, to take a moment to take in what’s going [01:47:00] on around you because live.

Payman Langroudi: In the present sort of thing.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. I just think otherwise life [01:47:05] would just. Yeah. Escalates into what? What you keep achieving and doing this and [01:47:10] now you’re doing that and this is going on and you’ve not. Yeah. It’s just not it’s being present isn’t it. It’s just being present. And for [01:47:15] a moment acknowledging what’s going on around you right now, because it’s those moments that then you can go back [01:47:20] to and remember and be like, oh yeah, that moment where I stopped and watched that. How amazing was that.

Payman Langroudi: Book [01:47:25] that changed the way you look at things?

Manrina Rhode: Oh so many. Um. [01:47:30]

Speaker4: Oh, [01:47:35] I’m reading this.

Manrina Rhode: Great book about happiness today that I started reading today. [01:47:40] Today? Yeah. That was I read.

Payman Langroudi: Power of Now.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: To [01:47:45] go with your right.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. I read a lot. All the time. Um. I love [01:47:50] The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho. I love all of Paulo Coelho’s books. Um, [01:47:55] I love, um, Tools of Titans. Um, I read that a [01:48:00] long time ago, but I remember really enjoying that. Um. So many. I could make you a list of [01:48:05] 100 books.

Payman Langroudi: Favourite bit of Dental kit or technique?

Manrina Rhode: My [01:48:10] favourite bit of kit is my 6844 prepping Burr. Burr. Yeah, I freaking love it, I [01:48:15] love it, it gives me joy just to look at it.

Payman Langroudi: Biggest dental bugbear? [01:48:20]

Manrina Rhode: Uh, dental community or dentistry? Dental. [01:48:25] What’s the biggest.

Payman Langroudi: Bugbear with dentistry?

Manrina Rhode: Dental dentistry. Dental community. [01:48:30] Bugbear is the egos. The egos really wind me up because [01:48:35] what are they so egotistical about? Like, get over yourself. You’re a dentist. You’re not frigging [01:48:40] saving the world. Um, and everyone thinks that they know how to do things better than everyone else. [01:48:45] They can’t just respect that we’re all out there doing the same job, hopefully to the best of our ability. [01:48:50] And can we just respect that? People do things in different ways and that’s what works for them. Um, yeah, that [01:48:55] winds me up.

Payman Langroudi: Favourite dental practice apart from your own?

Manrina Rhode: Ooh. [01:49:00] Oh, that’s really hard. Maybe [01:49:05] Angela’s Dental rooms in Wimbledon. Beautiful. So beautiful and so good. People. [01:49:10] Dave and Angela. Great team, great people, beautiful clinic. The glass box at the back. [01:49:15] Really well run. Happy team. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Things we wish you knew earlier [01:49:20] in your career.

[TRANSITION]: Oh.

Manrina Rhode: You [01:49:25] can have to edit out these long [01:49:30] pauses. No quick fires.

Payman Langroudi: Silence is the most powerful thing on a podcast. [01:49:35] Silence before tears.

Manrina Rhode: Are things to yell. [01:49:40] Things I’d known earlier I wish I’d known earlier. Um. Oh, well, [01:49:45] you know, I don’t. I would have if I’d known how powerful my Instagram was going to be for me, [01:49:50] I doubled. I’ve already doubled down on it. It’s already been great for me. Maybe I would have doubled [01:49:55] down on.

Payman Langroudi: Are you doubling down on TikTok now?

Manrina Rhode: No, but I should. Big mistake.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Huge.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah [01:50:00] yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Now that you know, now that you know.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. Just do it. Yeah. That whole online [01:50:05] presence does so well for us. And we don’t really do very much with it. We’re just in the process of [01:50:10] hiring a content creator marketing manager. I haven’t had one till now. And I think that’s going to make a really big difference. [01:50:15]

Payman Langroudi: Well, so you do it all yourself.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s pretty beautiful. Some of the stuff. Thank you.

Manrina Rhode: Thank you. [01:50:20] Really I just I really enjoy it. So sometimes I’ll just sit there like on a Sunday on my phone creating [01:50:25] a reel, and I’ll be like.

Payman Langroudi: Although although TikTok, the mindset isn’t beautiful, right? It’s a totally different [01:50:30] mindset on TikTok. Yeah, it’s kind of a tension sort of mindset that it’s beautiful. There’s nothing to do with it.

Manrina Rhode: We’ll [01:50:35] get our marketing person when she comes in to to look after TikTok. I don’t want I barely have the mind space [01:50:40] for Instagram, but I it gives me so much joy. Like if I wasn’t a dentist, I could be definitely [01:50:45] be a content creator because I love it. You know, I would just go around creating great content. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [01:50:50] finish with the usual questions fantasy dinner party, three guests, [01:50:55] dead or alive.

Manrina Rhode: Margaret Thatcher.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

[TRANSITION]: Brad [01:51:00] Pitt.

Manrina Rhode: Jennifer, wish you could see my face. Uh, Jennifer [01:51:05] Lopez.

Payman Langroudi: Go on. Why.

Manrina Rhode: Uh. Why all three?

Payman Langroudi: Well, yeah. Uh, Brad [01:51:10] Pitt seems obvious.

Manrina Rhode: We won’t talk about that. Uh, Margaret Thatcher. Just amazing. [01:51:15] Power woman. Got so much respect for her. Would love to have a conversation with her and try and get inside her mind. Um, [01:51:20] JLo really look up to her, find her really inspirational. I think she has amazing work [01:51:25] ethic. She’s taken care of herself physically as I aspire to do. She’s had this brilliant [01:51:30] work ethic where constantly reinventing herself and pushing herself in a way that I do. Um, [01:51:35] she’s what? I’m 45. She’s what, 52? She’s, you know, a little bit older than me and someone that I can just keep [01:51:40] us, like, looking up to throughout my journey. And I always have, and I always [01:51:45] will, I think.

[TRANSITION]: Nice.

Payman Langroudi: Last question is a deathbed question. On [01:51:50] your deathbed. Surrounded by your loved ones. Three pieces of advice [01:51:55] you’d leave them with. What would they be?

Manrina Rhode: Just. [01:52:05] It’s difficult because they’re not that it depends how old or young they are. Like, if I was talking to my niece and [01:52:10] nephew, and I felt like I could still offer advice that would be useful for them if my mom’s with [01:52:15] me on my deathbed, I don’t I don’t know how much advice I could give her. I think she’s amazing. And, uh, there’s not much [01:52:20] that I would be able to teach her. Um, but say for younger people, um, [01:52:25] I would, I would very much encourage them to just do it. Like, stop [01:52:30] being scared of the repercussions of failing. Of [01:52:35] what? If I can’t do it? You know that imposter syndrome. If you just spend your whole life [01:52:40] being your own worst enemy, holding yourself back, you. I feel [01:52:45] like you live half a life. And I would rather they just did it. And [01:52:50] then if it works out, it works out. And if it doesn’t work out, that’s okay. Then just sit at home in four [01:52:55] walls because you’re too scared to try. Yeah. So that’s what that’s advice I don’t know about on my deathbed, but [01:53:00] that I often give to people and that I would, that I would really love to hold, that I love to hold people’s [01:53:05] hand through. And it’s something that I really look forward to doing on my mentorship program as well.

Manrina Rhode: Like because [01:53:10] that imposter syndrome exists a lot, and in all of us, we all have that chimp paradox, you know, [01:53:15] kind of telling us we can’t do things, and sometimes you just need someone to be like, you can and I’ll hold your hand while you do it. I [01:53:20] would happily be the nurturing, maternal mother in me, and I’ll hold your hand. Let’s do it. [01:53:25] Um, so that’s one thing. Um, the second bit of advice is [01:53:30] look after your physical wellbeing [01:53:35] from a young age and make it part of your genetics. [01:53:40] Make it part of your everyday routine. I did that from the age of 16, [01:53:45] and I feel so grateful for it every day. Like when I talk to my friends who now, [01:53:50] you know, were 45. People are having ailments and and problems, and I [01:53:55] feel like I potentially have less of them and hopefully will as we get older, because I’ve worked [01:54:00] out so intensively throughout my adult life and watched my diet throughout [01:54:05] my adult life. And I don’t think taking care of your physical wellbeing [01:54:10] and making that part of just as important as breathing is something you’re ever going to regret. But if it’s [01:54:15] not something that you bring into your life from a young age or at some stage, it can be difficult to to incorporate later. [01:54:20]

Manrina Rhode: And it doesn’t mean you can’t do it as 60 or 70 people do that at any stage. I think it’s a good thing to do, but it’s [01:54:25] something that I think is really important for mindset and also just for for being able to function well, [01:54:30] you know, as your body starts giving away. Not that my body’s giving away, but it does feel [01:54:35] a bit like it’s sometimes like, you know, I’m more tired, but I feel like I can handle more because of the exercise [01:54:40] culture and diet culture that I have in my own brain. Um, and [01:54:45] the third bit of advice is learning and reading and growing and [01:54:50] never limiting yourself. Feeling like you know everything. If you think you know everything, that [01:54:55] just shows how little you know. And I think that you definitely go through this whole cycle in life of like [01:55:00] being in your 20s, like being quite young and realising you don’t know anything, and then getting through your 20s and maybe [01:55:05] to your 30s and being something like, I’m 30 now, I know everything. And then kind of going through your 30s [01:55:10] and realising.

Payman Langroudi: Keeping curious curiosity, well, just.

Manrina Rhode: Just how humbling life is and [01:55:15] and realising that that life is humbling and you are not in control and you are not in charge. [01:55:20] So continue learning, continue developing and so, [01:55:25] and continue being ready for what life will inevitably throw at you whenever it’s going to do that. Don’t sit [01:55:30] in your own ego castle thinking that this is it and this is I’m that great, and this is what my [01:55:35] life is going to be because it probably won’t.

Payman Langroudi: So look, that question, this previous question, actually, you [01:55:40] can look at that question in two different ways. You can look at that question as sort of I did these things. They served me well. [01:55:45] You should do it too. Mhm.

Manrina Rhode: Or I wish I’d done this.

Payman Langroudi: What about if you look at it that other way.

Manrina Rhode: I wish [01:55:50] what I would have done differently.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Advice. Advice you’d give. You know, for instance, [01:55:55] the one you said about the gym. Yeah, I’d give that a piece of advice, even though I didn’t start at 16 going to the gym. [01:56:00]

Manrina Rhode: So maybe, um, freezing your eggs. Like I say that to young people now, um, there’s [01:56:05] no point deciding suddenly at 35 or I’ve not had kids let me freeze my eggs because already your eggs are old. [01:56:10] Um, if someone had told me to freeze my eggs at 25, I would have thought they were nuts. But if [01:56:15] I have a child at 25. Who looks like she’s not going to have her kids any time [01:56:20] soon, I might be in want to say to her, can we just can we do at least one batch of freezing just [01:56:25] in case? Um, it seems like a crazy bit of advice to give, but if I could jump back and if at [01:56:30] 25, if I could have just frozen some.

Payman Langroudi: We had two whole episodes on it with Rona. Um, [01:56:35] egg freezing episodes. Um, and yeah, you’re right that I’ve given that advice to so many people now after [01:56:40] those two episodes. Mhm.

Manrina Rhode: I think Google is it Google that offer an [01:56:45] incentive like they’ll pay towards it if their staff want to take time off to do that. Yeah. Because they understand that they’re [01:56:50] working and not having kids. Like if you want to freeze your eggs we’ll we’ll pay towards it. Um, so maybe. [01:56:55] Yeah if I would have it would have been crazy, but I would have done that. Um, what [01:57:00] else would I have done differently?

Payman Langroudi: Kids on the agenda at all in any [01:57:05] way, shape or form.

Manrina Rhode: Yeah, I’ve been trying to have, um, a child for [01:57:10] like 13 years or definitely, like, seriously, for at least ten, uh, more like 12. [01:57:15] So let’s see.

Payman Langroudi: Would you ever adopt a child?

Manrina Rhode: Yeah. So that would be the next stage [01:57:20] now because it’s getting to that stage. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah yeah. So I mean I would always I would be, [01:57:25] I would be open to adopting like any way, like since I was a child, I was always open to that. [01:57:30] I would love to have a genetic child because I think it just would be nice. But [01:57:35] equally, there’s no reason why why I’m completely open to to adopting, so, you know, but both [01:57:40] methods are being explored at all times. They’re definitely on the agenda. [01:57:45]

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it and really thank you for being so open throughout [01:57:50] this conversation. It’s been brilliant. Thank you. Thank you for your time.