[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go [00:00:10] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:15] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:00:20]

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Mark Allen onto [00:00:25] the podcast. Mark is general manager chief executive of Bupa Dental Care. [00:00:30] Um, Bupa, a lot of people don’t know, is a not for [00:00:35] profit organisation, but not not a charity either. Run, run pretty [00:00:40] much like a for profit company. Yeah. Um, Mark, [00:00:45] you’re part of a massive group and you’re an insurance [00:00:50] guy, right? So you’ve come from an RSA insurance, another massive company? Yeah. [00:00:55] I like to get my first burning question out before. Before anything? Yeah. [00:01:00] What surprised you about Dental?

Mark Allan: You’re not messing about with the first question [00:01:05] there, are you? That’s a really good one. Um, what surprised me? I [00:01:10] think that I don’t know whether it surprised me, but [00:01:15] certainly the fastest thing I think I learned really fast was, um, um, [00:01:20] the importance and the, the family nature of [00:01:25] a of a practice. So you talk about being part of a big organisation with 80,000 employees [00:01:30] across the world or whatever, or you work in a call centre and there’s a thousand people in there, [00:01:35] and then you go to a practice and there’s 12. Yeah. And the intimacy of that [00:01:40] practice and the the recognition that if there’s not a really good harmony in that [00:01:45] team, if the practice manager hasn’t got that the team working really well or someone’s got something going [00:01:50] on for them, the importance of the team recognising that and being able to adjust [00:01:55] or even with small numbers, somebody leaves and the burden that falls on [00:02:00] the remainder of the people. So yeah, I guess the micro, the micro nature of the [00:02:05] business. So, you know, we’re running a big corporate business with 380 [00:02:10] odd practices, but the real action takes place in very local, very small, [00:02:15] um, stages, I guess.

Payman Langroudi: So in, in a single [00:02:20] practice generally. I mean, you know, before the corporate model came along, there was a principle. [00:02:25] Yeah. And I guess the challenge is running that without a principal and [00:02:30] all the egos and, and the, the model [00:02:35] of having the manager as the key person in the practice. How have you found dentists [00:02:40] get on with that.

Mark Allan: Well, I guess there’s not one answer to that, [00:02:45] because the thing you learn very quickly is there are very different types of dentists at different [00:02:50] stages in their career, different ages, different backgrounds and so [00:02:55] on. I think the thing again, you know, steep learning curve. You go in fresh set of eyes [00:03:00] and you notice things. The thing I noticed as well, really quickly was you [00:03:05] have to make sure the practice manager doesn’t think they’re the boss of everybody in the in the practice. [00:03:10] So yes, they are the manager of the nurse. They’re the manager of the reception team, the treatment [00:03:15] coordinator. But they are partner with with with the dentist [00:03:20] within the self-employed model, you know, we basically create an environment where self-employed [00:03:25] professionals can come and ply their trade. And our job is to make sure it’s a great environment for [00:03:30] them where they feel they can be successful. And now that doesn’t mean that the practice manager doesn’t [00:03:35] sometimes have to nudge things in the right direction. Um, but the [00:03:40] most important thing in a business like ours is that we listen and we build our business around [00:03:45] what our dentists, hygienists, therapists are telling us. So, um, it’s a skilful [00:03:50] job. The the practice manager job. I went on record really early on, quite [00:03:55] quickly in public forums, on videos and so on, saying, I think the practice [00:04:00] manager job is the hardest job I’ve ever seen in my career, just because of what they’re juggling and [00:04:05] the pace of everything and the the volume of transactions and the risk they carry and so on. [00:04:10] You don’t have that. If you’re a, I don’t know, a team [00:04:15] leader in a in a call centre, that’s a tough job as well. But you don’t have the variety [00:04:20] and the, the personalities that you’re trying to manage and the mix self-employed, [00:04:25] employed and so on. So I’ve got enormous respect for the role of, um, [00:04:30] of practice manager.

Payman Langroudi: And how do you guys find them? Do you internally promote.

Mark Allan: Yeah. [00:04:35]

Payman Langroudi: Or have you, have you had any experience of bringing them out from outside? [00:04:40] Is one better than the other?

Mark Allan: Um, I think it depends, doesn’t it? You’ve we’ve got all sorts [00:04:45] of backgrounds for, for, um, practice managers. We might have [00:04:50] someone who worked their way through was the lead nurse and becomes the practice manager. We’ve got people who come [00:04:55] from retail. And I think what you tend to see is that the strengths, the innate [00:05:00] strengths, are obviously linked to where they’ve come from. So if you bring someone from retail, the customer [00:05:05] experience, the looking at the numbers, the driving, the performance is perhaps much more [00:05:10] natural than if you were the lead nurse. But the clinical care, the patient experience is perhaps stronger [00:05:15] if you’ve been a lead nurse. But the best leaders in general are people [00:05:20] who don’t think they have to have all the answers. So you need someone who’s confident enough [00:05:25] to be able to stand in the middle of that and work with the people around them to, [00:05:30] to make things happen. So I think we’re we’re fairly relaxed. We definitely are keen to [00:05:35] promote from within. Um, and there’s always great opportunities to do that when someone, [00:05:40] uh, is off for a period of time or you end up just moving people around on an interim basis to test people, [00:05:45] and they do a great job, they don’t want to go back. So then you find a move. One of the beauties [00:05:50] of having 400 practices were a big business with a lot going on in local geographies. [00:05:55] Yeah. So if I take Peterborough, for example, we’ve got eight practices that [00:06:00] you could very feasibly work in, which makes it a much bigger business and opens up all sorts of [00:06:05] career opportunities for people.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, because, you know, working for a corporate has, has had a [00:06:10] sort of a bad reputation back in the day. I certainly remember around ten, [00:06:15] 15 years ago, it was sort of a difficult thing to do and a lot of churn [00:06:20] of clinicians. Yeah. But today I find I talk to [00:06:25] young dentists, and a good proportion of them choose to work for a corporate. [00:06:30] And that was never the case back ten, ten, 15 years ago. It was like, oh, I managed [00:06:35] to get a corporate job. Yeah. And it’s almost like, you know what you’re going to get. Yeah. Is [00:06:40] one thing. Yeah. Um, whereas you don’t know what you’re going to get if you go to any practice. You have no [00:06:45] idea what you’re going to get. Yeah. And my wife works for Bupa, as I said to you and [00:06:50] what you just said there. There is a flexibility to it in that we moved house and she just moved [00:06:55] practice. Yeah. And the company was very good at, you know, accommodating that. Good.

Mark Allan: Yeah. I’m [00:07:00] glad you said that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, that said, if if, if a dentist wants to do something. [00:07:05] So, for instance, you know, my wife is part owner of enlighten. Yeah. And said, well, why [00:07:10] don’t we do an enlightened promotion with a behemoth like like Bupa. It [00:07:15] took, I think, eight months to get the creative approved. Yeah. Up the chain. [00:07:20] Yeah. So how do you manage that? I mean, for instance, if there’s a problem. Yeah. I [00:07:25] guess someone goes to the practice manager. Let’s say the practice manager can’t handle that problem. What’s the next person up [00:07:30] from that? And how can you manage 400 practices like that? How does it work?

Mark Allan: Well, [00:07:35] so, I mean, you’ve hit the nail on the head of one of the biggest challenges. Um, for sure. [00:07:40] Um, if you’re an independent owner with one practice and you want to do something, you’ve probably done it by [00:07:45] 2:00 in the afternoon and off you go. Yeah. Whereas we have, um, obviously [00:07:50] some bureaucracy, but we also have responsibilities because our brand stands for something. So we have to be [00:07:55] very careful with that. Yeah. Things like data security for someone like Bupa, um, that [00:08:00] we have to be thoughtful about. So, um, I think [00:08:05] what we’re, what we’re trying to do is we’re trying to blitz the stuff that’s not necessary and really [00:08:10] fuel that entrepreneurial spirit, but be very honest with people about where the where the line is now. [00:08:15] We’re on a journey with that. So if you went and did a poll of 100 [00:08:20] of our dentists or nurses or wherever across our, um, patch, [00:08:25] I’m sure you would tell, you would hear some people say, yeah, it was fine. I got it done. You would hear some people [00:08:30] say, oh my God, you know, that was a nightmare. And that’s there for sure. [00:08:35] And we’re making progress. And it all keeps coming back to listening to to what’s being [00:08:40] said on, on the ground and also working out what you want to react [00:08:45] to because some of the things that get said on the ground. They’re not things that you want to, to, [00:08:50] to, to do. Yeah. Um, but what we try and drill into our people is you need [00:08:55] to be able to get people to tell you what they’re thinking. If you agree with them, do something about it and make sure [00:09:00] it gets done.

Mark Allan: And if you don’t agree with them, be honest. Have that conversation and tell them. Give them the reasons. [00:09:05] Data security is a brilliant example of this, where we [00:09:10] often do get, um, you know, it feels like lockdown and tough. Yeah. So [00:09:15] for an organisation like Bupa, even though you might think the little practice on [00:09:20] a high street can’t be a risk, it could be. There could be a way of getting through whatever you’re doing [00:09:25] there and getting into into other parts. And with GDPR and the fines and so on that [00:09:30] we could encounter, it’s a serious business. So the consequences for someone like [00:09:35] Bupa of something like data security are much bigger than it would be. Therefore, we’re much [00:09:40] stronger and tighter on that than probably the average person would be. But we make no excuses [00:09:45] for that. But when you explain that to people and say, this is why. Yeah, generally it’s like, oh, okay, right, [00:09:50] I get it. Okay. And actually they start to feel quite, um, comforted actually, that we [00:09:55] take data security that seriously. So, um, it’s horses. Horses for [00:10:00] courses. There are loads of things that we’ve changed that needed to change because it was painful to get stuff done, [00:10:05] or loads of areas where we weren’t listening as much as we should have been, um, or where people [00:10:10] had walked past things thinking, well, there’s no point in raising that now. And that’s the worst place you you get to where [00:10:15] people think that’s not good enough, but I’m not going to raise it because it won’t get changed. So [00:10:20] I think we’re unrecognisable from where we were. But there’s a load more for us to do to keep [00:10:25] working on that.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you mentioned Bupa as a brand and it’s got an [00:10:30] enviable reputation as a brand almost synonymous with private health care. [00:10:35] And I mean, I looked Bupa started in 1947, one year [00:10:40] before the NHS. Yeah. Which is extraordinary in itself. Right. Celebrate. How [00:10:45] much does brand protection figure in your day to day? [00:10:50] I mean, because it’s such a strong brand, you guys have to really keep that [00:10:55] going, right?

Mark Allan: Yeah. I think brands are really interesting topic and we talk about [00:11:00] it a lot in Bupa dental care, actually. So you already said in the intro, Bupa’s [00:11:05] ownership status is misunderstood, for starters. And when when people [00:11:10] realise we’re a provident association so we don’t have shareholders and all the excess profit that we make [00:11:15] beyond our cost of capital gets ploughed back into the business. And generally, in the [00:11:20] spirit of three things, one is investing in giving better patient experience and customer experience. [00:11:25] Looking after our people better so better benefits, better [00:11:30] investment in tools and so on. And increasingly sustainability as an organisation [00:11:35] and realising the role we have to play in sustainable healthcare. Um, and [00:11:40] when you explain that to people like, oh, I just thought all those prophets that get made, I thought they were just like, filling some [00:11:45] shareholders pockets. No. And that straight away changes people’s perceptions and I think warms people [00:11:50] to our brand. The point you made about, um, the brand being synonymous [00:11:55] with private medical insurance is is really true. When I first came to Bupa, uh, [00:12:00] seven years ago in the insurance business, I met some insurance brokers and they said, [00:12:05] one of the things you’ll learn really quickly is that people say things like, my, my, my Bupa [00:12:10] is with AXA.

Mark Allan: So that’s how yeah that’s yeah. Hoover. [00:12:15] It’s that’s how powerful the brand is at a local level for us. [00:12:20] Um, we think the brand is a should be an enormous benefit to [00:12:25] us. And that is in two ways. Number one is our, um, consumer brand. [00:12:30] So when a patient comes into a Bupa establishment, they see the the blue square on the wall. [00:12:35] We know that stands for high quality healthcare. So they should feel at ease. [00:12:40] And that would be true if you went into the Cromwell Hospital, which is which is owned by us. If [00:12:45] you went into one of our health clinics, our dental practices, our our care care homes, you would expect that high [00:12:50] standard of clinical, um, um, care. So [00:12:55] that serves us well and, and, and helps us. The thing we’re really working hard [00:13:00] on though is what is the Bupa brand for stand for in the dental market. So with dental professionals, [00:13:05] people clinical professionals would be that nurses, hygienist, therapists, dentists. [00:13:10] Um, and we are trying really hard to change that that [00:13:15] perception a of being a corporate and B what does what does Bupa [00:13:20] mean in that industry.

Mark Allan: I mean, we’re a relative newcomer really to this market at scale [00:13:25] is only in 2016 that we went from something like 20 practices to 500 [00:13:30] overnight. And, um, probably in the last 18 months, we’ve really [00:13:35] tuned in to what Bupa can stand for. And so if you we know if you’re a let’s just say [00:13:40] you’re a general dentist. We know the things that are important to you are a [00:13:45] nice practice environment, a stable team, stable nurse to support you, uh, [00:13:50] continuous professional development to feel like you’re being looked after. Good tools to to [00:13:55] do the job with all those things are within the the power of Bupa to do. [00:14:00] And we’re working really hard to stand out in the dentistry market and the labour market. [00:14:05] If you like to be perceived as an organisation that really looks after its people [00:14:10] and for dentists. A lot of the feedback we’re seeing from from our dentist population [00:14:15] is that they are really, um, encouraged and comforted, actually, by the way, we’re [00:14:20] looking after the nurse population because it matters to them that we have low attrition of nurses [00:14:25] and that the nurses are happy and don’t want to go anywhere else.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a massive issue. It’s a massive issue in dentistry in [00:14:30] general. Yeah, that anyone who’s ever worked in a dental practice will know that the nurses [00:14:35] are running the show, and often they’ve got the hardest job [00:14:40] and the lowest paid job in a practice with not much control over [00:14:45] their day as a dentist. I remember, you know, at the end of a long procedure, [00:14:50] at least it would be over. And then and then, okay, you’d be writing notes, but the nurse [00:14:55] would go straight from the procedure to the cleanup. Yeah. And then straight back into the procedure. And [00:15:00] one thing that we’ve struggled with as a profession is progression. Career progression [00:15:05] for the, you know, DSPs. Yeah. Have you guys now got something? [00:15:10] If I join as a junior nurse in Bupa, what [00:15:15] can I expect if I do my best and work my socks off? I mean, is it a meritocracy [00:15:20] in the in the traditional sense of a sort of corporate environment, that [00:15:25] that person might end up becoming a regional manager or something? Yeah. I mean, it works.

Mark Allan: I can think of one [00:15:30] of our one of our regional, um, operations directors who runs the central region [00:15:35] was a nurse. So from Bupa. She’s just been in practice [00:15:40] for a long time, worked her way through, now runs the central region, which is 130 [00:15:45] practices now, you know, over £100 million P and L. [00:15:50] So she’s a great role model to be able to say, look, this is what’s possible. We’ve got lots of other senior people. [00:15:55] I’m just thinking about our business development director who’s based in Ireland. [00:16:00] She ran the Irish region. She now looks after business development across our entire patch. [00:16:05] She was a nurse. Oh, amazing. So we’ve got some great high profile stories, but also locally [00:16:10] it’s it’s really clear. Um, a because we’re it’s important to us to, to [00:16:15] give people development and show people that they can they can progress. But because of our geography [00:16:20] and the fact that, okay, there’s no opportunity in my practice here, but there’s one opened [00:16:25] up down the road, I can get there within my travel to work time. So we’re very proactive [00:16:30] about how we can progress talent. And um, yeah, our attrition for nurses [00:16:35] has just hit its lowest ever, ever level. And we run a we run an engagement [00:16:40] survey.

Mark Allan: As you’d imagine, every six months we work with an external organisation called glint, [00:16:45] who have a global database, and we’ve been really focussed on the [00:16:50] nurse engagement and nurse experience aims to do the right thing, to [00:16:55] be honest, because of the amazing job they do, but also because of the commercial, um, realisation [00:17:00] that they’re fundamental to the practice. And this thing you get a score and [00:17:05] world, world class is um, 80. That’s glints global database. If [00:17:10] you’re above 80 on engagement, you are a world class employer in the top decile globally. [00:17:15] And we measure it for every role. We measure it every six months. We measure it by practice, by [00:17:20] region. So it’s really detailed data. And our nurse engagement in the last six [00:17:25] months went up by four points and is now above that world class benchmark. So I think we’re feeling [00:17:30] confident that if you’re a nurse or want to be a dental nurse, and [00:17:35] you want to be really well looked after, and you want to feel like you could go go somewhere and develop your career. [00:17:40] Boop is an amazing place to be and we will continue to invest in that. [00:17:45] Um.

Payman Langroudi: What about career progression for clinicians, for dentists? I mean, [00:17:50] I know Annie Seaborne has just got a job as, like, [00:17:55] a clinical.

Mark Allan: Head of head of general dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he’s been on our courses [00:18:00] and all that. So congratulations to her. But okay, you’re a junior dentist. Can you join at that level [00:18:05] or you don’t have that, uh, PhD level?

Mark Allan: No. I mean, a junior dentist would [00:18:10] come in and ply their trade in the self-employed model and as an as an.

Payman Langroudi: Associate junior dentist, [00:18:15] what could happen? What would be like a career progression for a junior dentist?

Mark Allan: Well, career progression [00:18:20] for junior dentists would be, um, first of all, for junior dentist. You’re [00:18:25] plying your trade? Yeah. Uh, Neil always talks about this. How our director [00:18:30] of dentistry. I don’t know if you’ve come across Neil, but, you know, really important to do your [00:18:35] 10,000 hours of practice to, to, to, to get good so you’d get plenty [00:18:40] of hands on experience. We try and work with on on a mentor basis wherever we can. [00:18:45] That’s easiest. Easier said than done to to do that, we’re really stepping up our CPD um, [00:18:50] efforts. It’s something we probably didn’t do enough of. And again, [00:18:55] part of our brand and standing for world class healthcare. And there’s an opportunity to do that. [00:19:00] So there’s loads of within role opportunity to to grow and get get [00:19:05] better. Um, you can obviously then specialise and [00:19:10] start to develop different strains of being a dentist, but if you wanted to step into a more executive [00:19:15] role and maybe do a bit of both, we’ve got loads of opportunities. You can be an area clinical lead, [00:19:20] which means you’re on the ground maybe a couple of days a week, but still practising within an area, [00:19:25] going around checking how the dentist community is doing, uh, [00:19:30] getting involved in solving problems when when problems emerge. So we would have one of those in every [00:19:35] area within the country.

Payman Langroudi: Literally in those two days. Are you literally going practice to practice? Yeah.

Mark Allan: Or following [00:19:40] up on stuff and just being bringing a clinical voice to some of the business decisions that are being taken? [00:19:45] Then we have a regional clinical director. So same role, but next level up that sits on [00:19:50] the executive teams of those regions. Um, and then more recently [00:19:55] you mentioned Annie. Annie Seaborn, this this is a really interesting story. Um, we [00:20:00] don’t have a separate clinical team. We did, but my observation of a separate clinical [00:20:05] team and a separate operations team was they didn’t always talk to each other. So operations decisions were [00:20:10] made that should have had clinical input and they didn’t, or clinical decisions were made that should have had operational impact [00:20:15] input and they didn’t. And what you ended up with was things being launched into into practices [00:20:20] that didn’t work for what in whatever way. Yeah. So [00:20:25] we we effectively dismantled the clinical team and put different elements of the clinical [00:20:30] team in in business functions. That was part one. So for example, our clinical risk [00:20:35] team now sits as part of a wider risk team looking at all elements of risk, much more holistic [00:20:40] approach to risk. Um, our procurement team, [00:20:45] which was just a clinical procurement team, sat out there on their own while all the rest of our procurement, um, [00:20:50] and sort of, um, management of that kind of stuff was over here. They now sit as an integrated [00:20:55] procurement team, but we needed to make sure we still had a really strong [00:21:00] voice of the clinical community at our top table.

Mark Allan: So we created something which we’ve called the the [00:21:05] clinical advisory team. Um, and we didn’t quite know where this was going to go, but we advertised, [00:21:10] you know, do you want to be involved in this? And we advertised for a director of dentistry, [00:21:15] a head of hygiene and therapy, and a head of dental nursing. Um, and then [00:21:20] we’re interested in who else came out of the woodwork, put that advert out, and were overwhelmed [00:21:25] by the number of people who are who applied. Obviously some of them were nurses [00:21:30] and maybe come back to why we why we did that. But the hygiene and therapy community, the dentist [00:21:35] community, lots of people thinking this is an opportunity for me to to have a voice [00:21:40] and actually to start to learn some different skills. So we ran a number of assessment centres [00:21:45] where we whittled it down, made appointments in those roles. Um, they [00:21:50] are practising. So I didn’t want someone on our leadership team who wasn’t still [00:21:55] in surgery. So they still do at least a day a week in surgery, the rest [00:22:00] 2 to 3 days a week. Then they’re in these advisory roles. And we ended up appointing [00:22:05] a team of four. So Doctor Neil Sekhar is our, um, director of dentistry. And Annie, [00:22:10] who you’ve mentioned, uh, was so good in the, in the process that we thought, well, [00:22:15] we’ll create a role for, for Annie, head of general dentistry.

Mark Allan: So she works [00:22:20] kind of alongside Neil thinking about issues that face into our dentist population. [00:22:25] And then we’ve got, um, Caitlin and Amelia. Caitlin is our [00:22:30] head of hygiene and therapy. So she is now the senior voice of [00:22:35] the hygiene and therapy community in our business. And then Amelia is our head of nursing. [00:22:40] And so Neil sits on my executive team reports to me. And those three report to Neil. [00:22:45] So we’ve now got a voice of nursing, a voice of hygiene and therapy and two voices, two strong [00:22:50] voices of dentistry sat right alongside my executive team. Um, so [00:22:55] there’s going back to your original question. Where can I go? There’s just some routes, [00:23:00] and it’s a it’s a learning curve. It was really fascinating to me when I turned up at [00:23:05] some of these assessment centres, and they were done in our Staines office, um, [00:23:10] which is like a call centre where, you know, we sell the policies and we handle the calls [00:23:15] for private medical insurance. So we’re in a meeting room there. So if you like, this is this is territory. [00:23:20] This is a world that I’m very familiar with because I came from the insurance world. Yeah. And there’s a [00:23:25] room full of dentists. Let’s say there’s 50 dentists turned up to this assessment centre. And it was [00:23:30] really funny watching, um, watching the looks on the faces of the dentists, having just spent [00:23:35] six months walking around practices where I was the new, the new boy in an alien environment.

Mark Allan: Um, [00:23:40] and, you know, trying to understand what was going on and feeling a little bit intimidated by [00:23:45] the, the expertise that was everywhere. And then the dentists walk into the room in stains [00:23:50] and suddenly it’s flipped. Where? I’ve never done this before. What’s this executive stuff all about? [00:23:55] And we’re doing personality profiling with them or getting them to do, uh, role [00:24:00] play exercises. And it was it was brilliant. And from that, not only did we appoint the [00:24:05] four people in those roles, but we’ve now built a clinical talent pool. So that [00:24:10] or not, the nurses obviously aren’t self employed, but in the hygiene and therapy and dentist community, [00:24:15] we now have a pool of people who went for those jobs who are now in that pool. They’ve put their hand up and [00:24:20] said, I want to be, I want to be developed. I’m up for doing something a bit different, either younger [00:24:25] dentists or at a certain stage in their career where they’re ready to start thinking about other stuff, and we’re working [00:24:30] with them on certain projects and starting to look at how we can continue to build their skills. [00:24:35] So we’ve got go to people. So, um, that wasn’t where it started. But as, as, [00:24:40] as with anything, sometimes you do one thing and it opens up a whole world of other possibilities. [00:24:45]

Payman Langroudi: Do these people act as your sort of eyes and ears of the the board? Do they firefight [00:24:50] or do they actually get tactically involved with which direction the company should go?

Mark Allan: So the [00:24:55] for the clinical advisory team, the for the names that I mentioned, they have a number of roles. [00:25:00] So Neil for example will sit in my executive team. So whatever we’re talking about Neil will [00:25:05] be saying well hang on a minute that don’t be doing that because you need to think about this or this or this. Yeah. Um, [00:25:10] they have a role to play in building the community. And so it’s early days. They’ve only [00:25:15] been in role for about four months. But the vision for it is that, for example, Caitlin [00:25:20] talking to hygienists and therapists, she gives them a voice and starts to work at a [00:25:25] community where we’re getting two way communication going about what’s working, what’s not working, and [00:25:30] same with nursing. So they do some of that. They might be the face into the external market [00:25:35] for certain things. So with a trade association or with like you talked about. Um, Miranda. [00:25:40] Miranda from Miranda Steeples. Yeah. Caitlin would be building a relationship with Miranda [00:25:45] Steeple. So we’re tuned in there, and that’s way better Caitlin doing that than me trying to do it, because [00:25:50] I don’t. I’ve never done the job. I don’t I don’t understand. And then they will all have areas [00:25:55] of specialism or things they’re passionate about.

Mark Allan: So at any point in time they might have 3 or [00:26:00] 4 projects that we’re working on that they are a key advisor [00:26:05] council on. We try and make sure they don’t have to take too much work away. Their job [00:26:10] is not to go and, you know, be a project manager. That’s not what we want. We want their expertise [00:26:15] and guidance. And this concept of advisory committees is something we’ve really latched on to. So that’s [00:26:20] the most prominent. But we do have a Dental advisory committee which meets every quarter, which is a [00:26:25] bigger panel of dentists, hygienists, therapists where we’re taking bigger issues to them [00:26:30] and updating them on progress. And that’s a mixture of dentists from different, um, private [00:26:35] specialisms, NHS, different parts of the country. That’s really [00:26:40] useful for us. And we’ve also got a practice manager advisory committee. So [00:26:45] across our estate we’ve got all sorts of different types of dentistry business with different NHS [00:26:50] um regimes and different specialism referral sites, [00:26:55] general dentistry, NHS, other countries like Republic of Ireland. So we’ve got 15 [00:27:00] practice managers who sit on what’s called the Pmac Practice Manager Advisory committee, and [00:27:05] anything that touches the practice or that will touch the practice that we’re thinking about doing, has to [00:27:10] be signed off by the practice manager advisory committee, and sometimes it needs to go back three times [00:27:15] before we get them comfortable.

Mark Allan: Um, and it’s been it’s been a real change for us in [00:27:20] making sure that when something lands in practice, we have a high degree of confidence it’s going to work. So, [00:27:25] uh, yeah, I think we’re we’re a business that’s really listening, and we’re going back to being [00:27:30] a corporate. I think one of the risks in big business is the people like me sit there and make the decisions [00:27:35] and say, let’s go and do that now. But in a business like ours, that can be really dangerous [00:27:40] because it’s so different on the front line. So we’ve tried really hard to turn the business the [00:27:45] other way around. And me and my executive team, our we’re clear about [00:27:50] where we want to go and what we’re trying to deliver, both financially. Um, and [00:27:55] in terms of what we’re trying to build. But we can only do that if we take our people with us. And in [00:28:00] a business like this, the front line know exactly what we should do.

Payman Langroudi: Very true. [00:28:05] I mean, people underestimate the the challenge, right? Because the number [00:28:10] of people internally that you have to I mean, I remember [00:28:15] we were trying to find out. Who do we talk to in Bupa regarding getting enlightened [00:28:20] throughout? We’re in 70 of the practices. We want to get into 400 of them, let’s say. Yeah, hard [00:28:25] to find out. Yeah. Even even from Bupa people. Yeah. Hard to find out who that is. And to [00:28:30] start with, I was like, well, they’re not communicating. But then I looked up the numbers. I mean, what are the numbers? [00:28:35] What are the how many dentists work for you? How big is dental [00:28:40] insurance compared to medical insurance? Is it a growth space? Yeah. And then [00:28:45] what’s the practice numbers?

Mark Allan: Yeah. Okay. So let me give you some some stats. Yeah. [00:28:50] Um, haven’t got a crib sheet here. So these will be. These will be what I managed to be able to store in my head. So [00:28:55] if you start with Bupa Dental care as a dental practice business business, we have 380 [00:29:00] practices. Uh, ten labs. We have about 8000 [00:29:05] people across that network, of which roughly [00:29:10] 2200 are self-employed, uh, dentists, dentist, hygienists [00:29:15] and therapists. So that’s the kind of that’s the magnitude of it. [00:29:20] And we operate we operate across the UK and Republic of Ireland. Um, [00:29:25] and in most places. And you might not always recognise us because we’re not [00:29:30] always Bupa dental care above the door. Um, Total orthodontics is one of our brands, for example, [00:29:35] specialist orthodontic sites. If you look closely, it will say part of Bupa Smiles. [00:29:40]

Payman Langroudi: In Ireland.

Mark Allan: Smiles in Ireland, part of Bupa. Um, that one’s obviously green. [00:29:45] Um, yeah. We’re the the main Bupa brand is blue. Total orthodontics is [00:29:50] bright pink, blue black, bright green. And then we have platinum. We [00:29:55] call them platinum sites. Um, it’s sometimes leaks into the customer knowing it’s a platinum site, [00:30:00] but really it’s an internal. How many of them are there? Uh, about 30. Um, and [00:30:05] that’s where, um, it maybe was an acquisition that we, that we bought where [00:30:10] it made sense for us to, to leave the, the vendor’s name above the door because it had equity [00:30:15] in the local market, or you’re just in a market where it makes much more sense [00:30:20] to to to look different. Mhm. Um, so the branding on those [00:30:25] um is, is like grey and, and they’re called a multiple multitude of different [00:30:30] things. The Wessex Hospital Lane. Briar Wallace. Yeah. Uh, the Raglan [00:30:35] suite. I mean, we’ve got some amazing houses. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There’s [00:30:40] one. I was just looking at one yesterday, which I visited a few months ago, and Faizan, [00:30:45] who’s one of our regional clinical directors, had put on LinkedIn that he’d just been to the old church, which [00:30:50] is in Halifax. I don’t know if you’ve ever been up there.

Payman Langroudi: I know it well because our competitor. [00:30:55] Yeah.

Mark Allan: That’s right. Yeah. So I went there a few months ago and [00:31:00] walked in through the front door. Beautiful. Was that, like, took my breath away? Because it’s [00:31:05] just not what you expect. Yeah. And that’s that’s branded as the old church. Part [00:31:10] of the Bupa Group. Yeah. And stained glass windows even in the surgeries. And it’s amazing. So, [00:31:15] um, we’ve got a really unbelievable kind of [00:31:20] asset really across that. So that’s the makeup of our dental business. You mentioned [00:31:25] about the funding side. Yeah. So we or I think Harvard [00:31:30] Business Review or somebody coined the term provider. And a provider is someone who has both funding [00:31:35] and provision. So in the UK we’re pretty unique as being one of the only, if not the only [00:31:40] provider. We’re certainly the only provider in the dental market because we’ve got 400 [00:31:45] practices. Um, we’re the UK’s biggest B2B dental [00:31:50] insurer now. And so and the bulk of that market is now [00:31:55] sold to employers and employer. The growth in that business has been [00:32:00] roughly 30% a year for the last few years, which probably makes sense with [00:32:05] difficulties in NHS access. Um, So [00:32:10] yeah, that’s that’s huge. We’ve got about just shy of a million. We would call them funding customers. [00:32:15] So that would be either insurance customers or our own, um, legacy [00:32:20] plans. We’ve got, uh, like a dem plan where that still exists in our practices. [00:32:25] And we have our own subscription plans called the Bupa Smile Plan, which is growing really quickly. So [00:32:30] a million customers there and then probably about 2.5 million, [00:32:35] um, private medical insurance customers. Um, and that would be private individuals buying [00:32:40] private medical insurance.

Payman Langroudi: So private medical insurance is by a long way the biggest [00:32:45] part of the business.

Mark Allan: But the lion’s share of that, roughly 85% of that is company paid. [00:32:50] Um, and what you’re seeing, I think, and we probably have a fairly unique perspective [00:32:55] on this, is employers, especially since Covid, are [00:33:00] realising that they need to look after their people, perhaps differently to how they looked after [00:33:05] them before. And if they don’t, increasingly, an Unemployed down the road will do so. [00:33:10] The provision of private medical insurance or lighter versions of that to their whole workforce, [00:33:15] or things like dental insurance, but is incredibly valuable if you’re in a place where you can’t get an NHS [00:33:20] appointment and you’re struggling maybe to to to do pay as you go private, and then [00:33:25] your employer says, here you go, have a have a Bupa dental insurance policy, it’s [00:33:30] powerful. So for us, you know, as as we really start to think about the future, [00:33:35] the opportunity that exists for Bupa to connect the dots and start to unlock access [00:33:40] into that, those funding patients and get them to come to Bupa Dental [00:33:45] Care for a VIP service. And, you know, and a different kind of experience is really powerful. [00:33:50]

Payman Langroudi: Mark, when you took over dental, what was the brief [00:33:55] like when, I mean, what did they say to you?

Mark Allan: What did they say to [00:34:00] me?

Payman Langroudi: And why are you when I look on your LinkedIn, it says something about good at turnaround [00:34:05] and yeah, this What? What did you bring to it? Or what are you supposed [00:34:10] to bring to it?

Mark Allan: Yeah. Um, I think my LinkedIn probably [00:34:15] just says lots of words that mean lots of people are interested in what I’ve got to say. Maybe. Well, um, [00:34:20] who knows how true they are, but, um, what was the brief? So the brief is.

Payman Langroudi: It a promotion [00:34:25] from your perspective? Is that.

Mark Allan: No, absolutely. It was a promotion. So I my job before I came into [00:34:30] this role was I had the general manager job title, and I ran the business [00:34:35] side of the private medical insurance business.

Payman Langroudi: But that’s a giant, which is a much bigger business [00:34:40] than than this one.

Mark Allan: It is in financial terms. Yeah. Not as many people that you’re responsible for, but [00:34:45] and in our in the big corporate hierarchy, you know, great graded one layer below [00:34:50] the job that I do now. And I also looked after dental insurance and cash plan as well. [00:34:55] Yeah. So that was my my world. So anything that was employer paid that was an insurance product. My [00:35:00] team looked after that. Um, so I had some familiarity with with with [00:35:05] dental and I would liaise regularly with the Dental team that I now lead. As we [00:35:10] started to think about how we call it connected care. How do we make sure that when people buy a dental insurance [00:35:15] policy, we’re making it easy for them to use a Bupa dental care practice? So I was familiar. [00:35:20] I guess if you looked at my background, it’s been generally been big leadership jobs. [00:35:25] And I’ve probably, um, developed a track record that, um, [00:35:30] as someone who can engage people and get people going in a particular direction, whether that be growing [00:35:35] a business or trying to turn around a business, it always comes back to the people. It doesn’t matter where you [00:35:40] go, whatever you’re trying to do, you have to get your people to believe and want to go [00:35:45] where you’re going. So I knew I had that reputation and I’d probably been a bit of a nuisance, to be honest. [00:35:50] At Bupa, I want to do something different. I’m up for, I’m up for anything, and I like a challenge. [00:35:55] And so the opportunity came up to to come to Bupa Dental Care. So the brief [00:36:00] when I arrived was, um, Yeah, a bit of a bumpy ride, probably [00:36:05] for Bupa since we bought a quiet oasis, especially, um, many [00:36:10] of the people who are listening to this who are perhaps in other big corporates that are going through acquisition [00:36:15] and mergers. It’s hard because especially when you’re bringing different cultures together, and especially where you’ve [00:36:20] got 20 practices and you’re the acquirer, like, you know, David acquires Goliath [00:36:25] of Oasis so that, you know, that was a quite a difficult process, [00:36:30] I think, running through from very different cultures.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Very, very different cultures.

Mark Allan: Yeah. Um, and [00:36:35] through to say 2020, we were making progress on that. But it was hard and [00:36:40] it’s it’s just not an overnight fix, is it, to, to do that when you’re trying to change [00:36:45] cultures and then Covid happens. So that’s a really difficult.

Payman Langroudi: Must have been huge [00:36:50] for people in general.

Mark Allan: Yeah huge. And I mean I wasn’t I look back and think glad [00:36:55] I’m glad I wasn’t doing the job during Covid because it was really hard, you know, closing practices. [00:37:00] But even on the.

Payman Langroudi: Medical side, it must have been a Yeah. Gigantic.

Mark Allan: Yeah, yeah. Huge [00:37:05] and huge complexity around. Um, what do you do with the fact that you’re [00:37:10] not. People aren’t claiming. Um, because no one’s going out and you can’t get you [00:37:15] can’t get any treatment anyway because the hospitals are dealing with Covid patients. And so what do you do with that money? [00:37:20] All that kind of stuff was was complex.

Payman Langroudi: But I heard you guys actually gave back a bunch of money.

Mark Allan: Yeah, [00:37:25] well, we gave back all the excess profit. Amazing. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: To to consumers. Yeah. [00:37:30]

Mark Allan: And businesses? Yeah. And businesses.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Amazing.

Mark Allan: So and that’s [00:37:35] part of that’s we led the market with that. Everyone in a situation like that looks at Bupa and [00:37:40] says, right, what are we going to do. So you have a responsibility. Yeah. For the market we have a responsibility [00:37:45] for our brand. And yeah, we made that decision very early on and then everybody else followed. So we [00:37:50] weren’t alone in giving that excess profit back. Um, but in Bupa Dental Care, you’ve [00:37:55] been through that experience over 6 or 7 years. The business wasn’t performing as we would have liked [00:38:00] it to. Too. So, um. Yeah. Do you want to. There’s a job over there. I know you’ve [00:38:05] never done it before. Are you up for it? Yeah. Okay. And in [00:38:10] my background, I guess if you look through my LinkedIn profile, what you’d see is, although I’d been in insurance [00:38:15] a lot, pretty much most times I’d change jobs. I’d gone into something I’d never done before. [00:38:20] So there’s a period if you really looked hard in my LinkedIn profile, if you if you if you really [00:38:25] need, you know, some bedtime reading to get yourself to sleep. Um, there’s a there’s [00:38:30] a job in there where I was in an insurance business, and I went to run the central London region of [00:38:35] Barnard Marcus, which was the estate agency.

Payman Langroudi: And I saw.

Mark Allan: That. Yeah. And I was like 27. I [00:38:40] didn’t know anything about estate agency and I jumped into that. So this is actually quite [00:38:45] easy compared to, to doing that, especially at that at that young age. So I think, [00:38:50] um, if you.

Payman Langroudi: Want, what is it about you that makes you that cat?

Mark Allan: I don’t know. [00:38:55] I get bored quite quickly. Um, and I like a challenge and I like [00:39:00] building things, and I like, um.

Payman Langroudi: So give us give us some top tips then. [00:39:05] I mean, even from you could if you’re an associate in a, in a surgery, you’re a leader, [00:39:10] you’re a leader. You’ve got your nurse, you’ve got your reception team, you’ve got your customers, right? Your patients. [00:39:15] You are a leader all the way up to leading 8000 people. Give [00:39:20] us some top tips for people.

Mark Allan: I hate questions like this because it makes [00:39:25] it sound like I’ve got some some real wisdom, but I think the biggest thing for me that [00:39:30] I learnt, and I think some of it comes with age as well as you get older and just life experience [00:39:35] and maturity is you have to understand yourself [00:39:40] really well. So understand what you what, what you’re good at, what you’re not good at, what [00:39:45] you stand for, what your values are, self-awareness and be and be and be cool with that. [00:39:50] Yeah. And the faster you can do that, the better. So [00:39:55] I can remember many times, probably in the first 15, [00:40:00] 20 years of my career, up to probably the age of 40, where I could feel myself adapting [00:40:05] to be what somebody else wanted me to be. Not totally compromising [00:40:10] my values, but certainly not being authentic and being comfortable enough to disagree. You [00:40:15] know, someone more important than me said it said, that’s black. And I thought it was white. Oh yeah. Yeah, it’s black [00:40:20] because I thought that was the way to to progress was to please. Yeah. Um, other people, [00:40:25] in fact, I, a guy I’ve done some work with from a coaching perspective has written a book. And he asked [00:40:30] he asked me to write a chapter with this question, basically. And I wrote about this, which [00:40:35] is the importance of getting comfortable with your own skin as [00:40:40] fast as you can. Because when you’ve done that, firstly you know what you’re good at and what you’re not good at, [00:40:45] and then you realise what you need to put around you. Um, and you don’t. And you don’t [00:40:50] waste too much time thinking you’ve got to be perfect at everything. So going on development courses, because I’m not [00:40:55] this, but it’s just that’s just if I get really good at that or put too much effort in doing [00:41:00] that, I’m going to not play my super power, which is over, over here.

Mark Allan: So getting [00:41:05] really comfortable with that and getting ready. And then when you do that, becoming really grounded. So [00:41:10] one of the great things I love about this job is being able to go out and chat to the receptionists or the nurses, and [00:41:15] I can see their expectation when I turn up. You know, the boss is here, but straight [00:41:20] away asking them why they haven’t bought you biscuits and you know, what are they up to at the weekend? And, [00:41:25] and having a bit of trying to find an angle to have a joke with them, to show them that you’re just a normal person [00:41:30] like anybody else. That’s, that’s certainly been something that I think is probably why [00:41:35] they let me loose on a business with 8000 people. You know, we need someone who can not project [00:41:40] instructions from head office and think he’s right all the time. We need someone who’s going to go and be humble [00:41:45] enough to go out and want to learn and listen. So I guess encapsulated [00:41:50] in your in my answer to your question is it’s a bunch of stuff about Just relaxing, [00:41:55] working out what your superpowers are, knowing what you’re not good at, and [00:42:00] then trying to stay true to your values and realising that if you’re in a place that doesn’t value what you value, [00:42:05] you should go. And life’s too short to hang around. And so you need to go and find a [00:42:10] place where you feel comfortable. And you can you can be yourself. And that’s that’s true for, for for everyone. [00:42:15] I think you do your best work when you’re at your, you know, your most peaceful sort of state. Really. [00:42:20]

Payman Langroudi: So what are you not good at?

Mark Allan: What am I not good at? Oh, it sounds like you’ve [00:42:25] been with my team this week. They’ve been giving me a hard time.

Payman Langroudi: I’m terrible at a bunch of stuff, so. But [00:42:30] I was thinking, you know, I’ve got 40 people here. Yeah. And I have massive issues handling [00:42:35] 40 people. And you’re handling 8000? Yeah.

Mark Allan: Although 8000 [00:42:40] is a really big number, but I don’t think it’s that different. Once you get once you get to 40, 40. [00:42:45]

Payman Langroudi: 80, you.

Mark Allan: Just have to realise that you’re leading people who then need to lead, other people who they need to lead [00:42:50] other people. And how you set them up to do that is perhaps different. But let’s get back to what [00:42:55] I’m not good at. I was trying to change the subject. Um, I’d probably say a couple of [00:43:00] things. One is I’ve got better at this, but it’s still true. Is I think I’m right a lot. [00:43:05] Um, nothing wrong with that.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Mark Allan: So I’m [00:43:10] an only child, so maybe it might have come from come from some of that. Um, and [00:43:15] it takes a bit of time to, like, push me back off course if I’ve decided we’re going over [00:43:20] there. Um, that’s why you put advisory committees in and put governance in to [00:43:25] not let you. It stops you making silly decisions, even if you think you’re right. [00:43:30] Um, the other thing is I’m I’m I’m really curious, which is a good thing, [00:43:35] but the bad thing is it brings with it stuff to do. So if if my team were here, they would [00:43:40] tell you unanimously, very quickly, he needs to prioritise better. And he can’t keep saying, [00:43:45] oh no, we said we’re doing this. But I’ve just seen something else that I reckon we could do. It’s really exciting. Let’s [00:43:50] go do it. And and when you realise the impact that has on people at first [00:43:55] in terms of clarity and confusion, which way to go, but also the workload it can create. [00:44:00] So I have to watch myself on that and I’m working on that right now about how [00:44:05] do you just, um, maybe work in waves of activity rather than doing everything at [00:44:10] once? I saw a great, a great quote a few weeks ago.

Mark Allan: I think it was during the Second World War where they [00:44:15] were the Americans were trying to work out how they could come and help, and they had two choices. They could sprinkle their [00:44:20] troops in lots of different places. And so at my worst, I would [00:44:25] sprinkle troops in lots of different places and just believe will be amazing anyway. Or they could put [00:44:30] most of their troops or all their troops in northern France, and they put them all in northern France, because that was where [00:44:35] the crux of the issue was. And had they sprinkled them everywhere, we’d have lost the [00:44:40] war. So, um, I’m thinking about that a lot at the moment in just decisions about [00:44:45] do we do this? Do we do that? And in a place like Bupa, as I said earlier, there’s so many possibilities [00:44:50] for us right now about what we could choose to do. So just [00:44:55] making sure we pick the smartest ones first and execute them really well.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, how [00:45:00] far does your personal power go? I mean, could you suddenly suggest [00:45:05] to buy another 500 practices and Bupa could do it, right? Bupa could.

Mark Allan: Afford it.

Payman Langroudi: Bupa could [00:45:10] afford it. So so do you sometimes get that sort of feeling that, you know, you’re wielding a huge axe [00:45:15] here and you could make a massive change? Yeah. Convince the right.

Mark Allan: People. One of the things that is [00:45:20] great about Bupa and it perhaps doesn’t sit as consistently with your story. You [00:45:25] know, when you said it’s really hard to get something done when I want to, I want to do this and then it goes through all the bureaucracy. [00:45:30] Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. Well, one of the privileges of doing a job like this is [00:45:35] I have a mindset that I can do anything, I can do anything I want, and [00:45:40] I think it’s a good place to start from, because I can be pulled back from that rather than thinking I can’t do much and I [00:45:45] never get to the bigger ideas. So could I walk away from this meeting and go [00:45:50] back and tell my team? Right. Contact Christie and co. We want to. We’re [00:45:55] going to go and buy 500 practices. I could do that but I would [00:46:00] I would hit some governance quite quickly and I would probably get told to not [00:46:05] be so stupid. Um, because there’s so much opportunity with what we’ve got. But [00:46:10] yeah, with within pretty big boundaries. I can do a lot of things. So, [00:46:15] um, and who.

Payman Langroudi: Do you have to convince that the actual board of Bupa generally, [00:46:20] are you on that board?

Mark Allan: So, so well, if I wanted to do stuff that’s within my [00:46:25] remit, I have a long lead. I can do a lot of different things, but things [00:46:30] that require serious investment, um, that might take investment away [00:46:35] from other parts of the Bupa business. I would need to go and pitch for that just like anybody [00:46:40] else. I, I sit on the Bupa UK executive team. So around that table you’ve got [00:46:45] the general manager of the care homes business, the general manager of the clinic’s business, the general manager of the insurance [00:46:50] business and collectively we are running the UK business [00:46:55] and there’s finite resource, of course, of course there is. And so the best ideas [00:47:00] and the ones with the most confidence will win. Um, and if it was really big [00:47:05] then we would go to our group board. So my, my boss is the CEO of the UK. His [00:47:10] boss is the CEO of the group. Um, but just this week, actually, one of the reasons I was in [00:47:15] I was in Winchester was it was our group board, uh, strategy offsite there in [00:47:20] a room in Winchester for three days. So these are the non exec team and an exec team [00:47:25] that run the whole group. And we were in doing a UK showcase to them [00:47:30] of which the progress we’re making and how we’re changing. Bupa dental care was a key part of the presentation. [00:47:35] And these are Non-execs who’ve sat. Many of them have sat on the journey from 2016 [00:47:40] to where we are now. So it was really nice to see the optimism and the confidence that [00:47:45] they’ve got in where we’re heading and what we’re up to.

Payman Langroudi: And were you involved in the decision to sell [00:47:50] those practices? Was that your idea or. Yeah.

Mark Allan: That was my decision. [00:47:55] Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. So you talk about.

Payman Langroudi: So then this is kind of the opposite. Do you have to get approval [00:48:00] all the way to the top for that?

Mark Allan: I still have to get approval for that. Yeah, 100% because, [00:48:05] um, a big decision affecting a lot of people and, um, you [00:48:10] know, was probably going to be a high profile decision, which meant from a brand perspective, we needed to be very to [00:48:15] be very thoughtful. So yes, I couldn’t just decide to do that without some support, [00:48:20] but, um, the group’s supported me with that [00:48:25] as a, as an important thing that we needed to do to, to protect the future and unlock the [00:48:30] potential of the business. So. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so I guess that was a consolidation [00:48:35] move. Insomuch as I get in every practice you’re consolidating, right? You’re [00:48:40] making sure the practice is optimised. Yeah. It has the acquisition part of it [00:48:45] stopped completely. Like if I was someone trying to sell my practice. Yeah. Is Bupa not the right place to go? [00:48:50]

Mark Allan: Um, so it hasn’t stopped completely. If you’d have asked me a year ago, I would [00:48:55] have shut that conversation down quickly because we were dealing with, quite rightly, [00:49:00] with our focus on making sure that, um, we exited those practices and sold [00:49:05] those practices well and looked after the people affected really well. And it would have been it just our minds [00:49:10] were elsewhere. Yeah. Where we’re at now. Um, are we going to be highly acquisitive? [00:49:15] Probably not. There’s so much, um, potential [00:49:20] in the in, in our existing estate. And it must be true for, for most [00:49:25] dental firms. I’d imagine you walk in and there’s an empty room at the end of the corridor, or [00:49:30] you’ve got a lease break and you’ve only got three surgeries, and there’s one across the road that you could create. Six. [00:49:35] So I think our focus will be on making better use of what we’ve currently got and optimising [00:49:40] that. One of the beauties, though, about having this connected care concept with our insurance business [00:49:45] is we know where all those customers are and we know where that business is. So there [00:49:50] are undoubtedly elements of that, that insurance portfolio geographically, [00:49:55] where we have no presence, where if we had a presence, we could have a high degree of confidence [00:50:00] that we could we could grow. So, um, I think I would I would describe [00:50:05] us as being we’re absolutely in the market, but we’d be incredibly picky and choosy [00:50:10] and and we probably wouldn’t be as active as anybody else. But, um, it’s a good sign of [00:50:15] how the mood music has moved.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, it’s not just you that I was at the DSO [00:50:20] meeting in Spain, and pretty much everyone was saying the same thing. Um, [00:50:25] that I think there was there was a time where it was all about numbers of practices and [00:50:30] people were increasing their numbers, increasing the multiples, and selling those businesses on and [00:50:35] and the general conversation in the room was about consolidation and making [00:50:40] sure each practice is performing better, which it should be. Right. Yeah. And the thing you say about opportunity, [00:50:45] I mean, just in our little world, we could increase whitening in a practice. There’s [00:50:50] internal marketing is something that is being really ignored by a lot [00:50:55] of our colleagues. Yeah. Yeah. You’re you’re the subspecialty [00:51:00] of insurance that you’re from. Is that am I right in saying that’s kind of like a marketing [00:51:05] role?

Mark Allan: Uh, so my 23 years before [00:51:10] I came to, to, um, Bupa were with RSA insurance [00:51:15] and I would say I grew up as a generalist, so I was a graduate trainee, in [00:51:20] which case you get to learn loads of.

Payman Langroudi: Stuff all the way through RSA.

Mark Allan: I stayed there for 23 years. Yeah. Yeah. [00:51:25] And now I’ve done seven at Bupa. So the question is will I, will I make it to [00:51:30] the to the end in two companies. Who knows. But um, so you [00:51:35] they gave you a general experience. But I grew up in, in call centres in [00:51:40] RSA in a multitude of jobs, then then [00:51:45] had a dabble into PNL management with the estate agency piece that [00:51:50] I talked about. Then did some again big people leadership jobs so claim we [00:51:55] would call it claims operations. So all those people you can imagine in the big call centres on [00:52:00] the phone. So big people leadership jobs. And then the twist probably for me was [00:52:05] in about 2010, where again, with that track record of going into [00:52:10] alien environments, I went to do a B2B sales job, which I’d never done before. And then from [00:52:15] that became the MD of that, that business B2B. Um, and then that was probably what I [00:52:20] stuck with. So if you said what’s your I’m not a marketeer, but my marketing [00:52:25] team would tell you that they I think I am. Um, but they have to [00:52:30] tell me off a lot. No, no, I think that should be use a different picture. Um, but I’ve [00:52:35] got a largely a growth background with some turnaround stuff that I’ve done. [00:52:40] Um, but probably just a general, a person who’s acquired a toolkit of [00:52:45] of skills and knowledge, um, that we’re deploying at this moment in time [00:52:50] in, in Bupa dental care.

Payman Langroudi: So what keeps you up at night regarding Bupa dental care? [00:52:55] Like, what’s your. I can tell you mine.

Mark Allan: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Go, go. Go ahead. I [00:53:00] think about it for a second. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Go ahead. Yeah. Go ahead.

Mark Allan: I would say that, um. [00:53:05] I suspect I’m not alone in this. So I sit on the ADG, um, [00:53:10] board with the Association of Dental Groups. Yeah, the with the, the CEOs of the [00:53:15] big groups. And I think we’re all probably to in different ways thinking [00:53:20] about the same thing, which is, um, how do you keep growing your pool of dentists and [00:53:25] with a relatively finite pool, you’ve got to win market share. Basically, [00:53:30] you’ve got to get the dentists and the hygienists and the therapists to want to come and work for you more than somebody else, because there’s not [00:53:35] a flood of people coming in to.

Payman Langroudi: The pendulum swung kind of in favour [00:53:40] of associates. Yeah. You know, I having been in dentistry for 30 years, [00:53:45] there are times where the pendulum swings in favour of principles. Yeah. And then now there’s [00:53:50] a shortage. Right. And you see.

Mark Allan: It in different markets. So I was in Spain last week with our Spanish business. [00:53:55] Very different market over there. Plenty of dentists, plenty of dentists. So their their attitudes are quite different to how [00:54:00] they manage things. But do you reckon.

Payman Langroudi: Brexit has been a big factor for that?

Mark Allan: I [00:54:05] think there’s been all sorts of factors. Just, just I think life has changed for [00:54:10] people. Um, it always amazed me actually. I remember going to a practice and some of the dentists I’d met had been [00:54:15] like, yeah, I worked six days a week, and that’s that’s why I drive this car or whatever talking to [00:54:20] this dentist. Oh, how many days a week do you do? Three. Oh, right. You work somewhere else for [00:54:25] the other two? No. What? You only do three days a week. Why? Well, on Thursday I do [00:54:30] this on Friday. That’s my wellbeing day. Okay. So I think that, there’s [00:54:35] factors like that as well as the.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a lot of that. There’s a lot of that.

Mark Allan: Absolutely. In the, in the younger dentists or post-Covid [00:54:40] people having had a think about what they wanted from life. So there’s a whole set of dynamics. [00:54:45] So, you know, if you don’t have dentists, hygienists and therapists, you don’t have [00:54:50] any revenue because you can’t see any patients. So that’s probably the one that if you said instinctively, [00:54:55] which is the professional thing, that would, um, keep you awake at night and we’re [00:55:00] most thoughtful about is what do we need to do as Bupa? Why we go back to that? What does our brand [00:55:05] stand for in the dental market, and how we change that and make it really attractive [00:55:10] to people, as I want to go and work there because something’s going on over there that looks exciting. [00:55:15] Um, that’s probably the biggie.

Payman Langroudi: So in your [00:55:20] efforts to explain to the associates what you’re about [00:55:25] and you said, okay, personal development, CPD, stable nurse, [00:55:30] stable patients, what are you doing? I mean, okay, we’re here. We’re talking. Yeah. [00:55:35] Um. Yeah. How how does one talk to the Dental associate market and get [00:55:40] that through to them?

Mark Allan: Um. It’s hard, it’s hard, it’s hard. Yeah. [00:55:45] Um, and until this. We were relatively quiet last year for the [00:55:50] reasons that we talked about. We were we just didn’t think it was right that we were trying to say, [00:55:55] look, look how exciting Bupa dental care is. It wasn’t the right time. Yeah. This year things are different [00:56:00] and we think we’ve got an exciting story. Getting the opportunity to come and talk to you today obviously reaches [00:56:05] people and they get a feel for what we’re about and what we’re trying to do. Uh, we’ve [00:56:10] been talking to FMC and started to take a bit more of a profile in the dentistry magazine. [00:56:15] Our CPD events are great, and we get in huge attendance [00:56:20] from people who don’t work for us as well, and hiring people on the back of that. [00:56:25] The take up of those is really strong. Um, and we will continue [00:56:30] to do bolder things over the coming months to, to to to [00:56:35] get out there. Um, you know, the relationships with the BDA through the ADG, with [00:56:40] the dental schools were just the image I’ve got in my head. As I’m saying, it is our tentacles [00:56:45] starting to come out and be stronger. Um, and we’ve we’ve been very quiet. [00:56:50] I think probably for the last few years or, or the market didn’t really know what we stand [00:56:55] for, but it’s pretty simple, really. We’re trying to build a great dentistry business. Um, [00:57:00] and we’re bringing the power of Bupa behind it to, to fuel that, whether that be the way we look after [00:57:05] our people or the opportunity that it creates with all of that funding business sat behind it.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:57:10] have you looked at recruitment abroad?

Mark Allan: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: In Spain you might as well. Yeah. [00:57:15]

Mark Allan: If there’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Surplus.

Mark Allan: No, we’re absolutely active abroad. And we have people thinking about that, [00:57:20] um, as just one strand of of what we’re up to. It’s not straightforward. Um, [00:57:25] uh, and it’s and and it depends on geography, doesn’t it? It’s hard. You know, [00:57:30] We’ve still got some really difficult vacancies to fill in certain places, especially [00:57:35] if they’re NHS, um, vacancies. So we’re just [00:57:40] thinking through how how do we just stand out as being different. I think a different kind of corporate [00:57:45] that is offering a different kind of, um, experience that might not be for everyone, and that’s [00:57:50] fine. But if you want to be part of something where you’re really well looked after. Um, we talked [00:57:55] about the things that are important to dentists. Yeah. How you link funding and provision and create [00:58:00] amazing experiences for, for patients. Um, if you’re a dental insurance customer [00:58:05] of ours right now and you walk into our practice, you have your treatment, you walk out and it’s all taken care of. [00:58:10] No need to send the receipt off, no need to ring anybody. Direct settlement. Nobody [00:58:15] else can do that at the scale that we can do it. And that’s one of the reasons our dental insurance business has grown [00:58:20] so much. So I think, um, yeah, we I think [00:58:25] you can probably tell from the way I’m talking, we think we’re a force now, [00:58:30] and we’re starting to really gather some momentum. So that in itself and and [00:58:35] that brand and that that confidence that’s starting to come out, I think probably turns some heads and makes people [00:58:40] think I might not have considered Bupa in the past, but I think I would now. That’s what we want. And [00:58:45] for people to come and talk, talk to us.

Payman Langroudi: On this pod. We’d like to talk about mistakes, sort of from that [00:58:50] sort of black box thinking kind of way of. Well, with, with dentists [00:58:55] as well. You know, we tend to talk about clinical mistakes. Yeah.

Mark Allan: Haven’t got any of those. [00:59:00]

Payman Langroudi: Well I mean you could, you could, you could tell me an example of one that’s been made in the group. Um, [00:59:05] you don’t have to. Yeah, it can be whatever. What comes to mind when I say mistakes? What mistakes [00:59:10] have you made?

Mark Allan: I’d probably talk about two. I’ll come to a personal one in a sec. [00:59:15] But I think a mistake that we have probably made over the last [00:59:20] few years is where we started. Really? About this. Um, we know the answers. [00:59:25] So this is how we’re going to do things and everyone get on the bus. And [00:59:30] there are certain environments where you can do that. This isn’t one. And [00:59:35] that was you know, I think your first question was what? What did you learn quickly? Respect the front line. Respect [00:59:40] the job that goes on. Listen to what they’re telling you and make sure that you adapt your plans [00:59:45] accordingly. So I think some of the bumpy ride, probably that we had in those first few years was [00:59:50] partly to do with that. And I think I’m sure if we had our time over again or we did [00:59:55] a new acquisition, we would approach it very, very differently. Whoever [01:00:00] you’re leading, it’s never about you. And that’s probably just a really pivotal.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:00:05] think, you know, going going back to that thing about being a leader, you as a leader. I learned this the hard [01:00:10] way. You kind of got to watch what you say 100% and how you behave [01:00:15] in terms of, you know, just body language, just just acknowledging people [01:00:20] and, and the difference that makes and the damage you can do if you [01:00:25] do it wrong. Yeah. It’s huge. I mean, yeah, as a dentist, I remember I stopped practising a long [01:00:30] time ago, but when I was a dentist, I remember I used to say thank you to the nurse at the end of the day. Yeah. [01:00:35] Sounds like a pretty obvious thing to do, right? But the number of nurses who say, oh, no one ever says [01:00:40] that. And, you know, that’s just in a room.

Mark Allan: And it’s really important. It’s [01:00:45] really important. We had a situation yesterday. We do a monthly, uh, it’s called the Business Performance Committee. So [01:00:50] every month, me and my executive team present our results to to my boss and [01:00:55] some of the other peers that I’ve got around the table, like the FD. And yesterday we [01:01:00] took three people into the meeting from the the direct reports of my [01:01:05] team talking about pricing. Um, we were talking about patient finance and we [01:01:10] were talking about incentives. So three, three topics that we’re thinking about and working on and those [01:01:15] three people presented on the call. Now I go to that meeting every month, [01:01:20] sit around that table. No big deal. But I could see they all look nervous and it would be really easy [01:01:25] to just let that go. And it would be really easy just to say, um, thanks, [01:01:30] but we use Microsoft Teams, so it actually works really well. [01:01:35] That thing pops up on someone’s screen rather than an email that might get lost in a trail. But [01:01:40] just writing three very specific thank yous to Sarah [01:01:45] is our pricing, um, manager Sarah. Amazing. Amazing job. [01:01:50] Your confidence came across really strongly. You were really commercial in this bit here. [01:01:55] Loved it. And just the realisation that [01:02:00] you have the power by being thoughtful and taking the time to do that is huge. [01:02:05] So. And the.

Payman Langroudi: Opposite. Right? If you hadn’t have taken the time to do that, she wouldn’t have known. She wouldn’t have [01:02:10] known.

Mark Allan: I wonder what? And actually, you do realise if you leave a vacuum, people often assume, oh, [01:02:15] Mark wasn’t very happy with that. Otherwise he would have, he would have. He would have thanked me. The [01:02:20] most profound thank you example I’ve seen which I try and do, but I’m not as good at it [01:02:25] as I as I would like to have been. There’s a guy called Martin Neary I saw present, who was the director of [01:02:30] prisons years ago, and then was chief exec of Barnardo’s. I saw him speak, and every Friday [01:02:35] he would he would have in his drawer, in his desk. He would have some really nice paper [01:02:40] and some really nice envelopes not branded. And he would spot things during the week that he [01:02:45] saw people doing that were in line with what he wanted to see happen, and he would handwrite a letter [01:02:50] to them on a Friday, put his own stamp on it, and he would do it. So it arrived on a Saturday. [01:02:55] So I started to do that. And people you still see, people they carry, they carry around the letter in their bag with [01:03:00] them.

Payman Langroudi: I got one of those from a principal in 97. I’ve still got it. Yeah, I’ve still [01:03:05] got it. It makes such a big difference.

Mark Allan: The fact you took the time. Exactly. It’s dead easy to say thanks or [01:03:10] thumbs thumbs up on an email. But even if you take the time to say specifically what it was you liked [01:03:15] about it, and then. And also you might want to if you if you’ve got a good enough relationship and [01:03:20] actually give me a shout. I’ve just thought of something you might be able to do to make it even better next time. That’s where you’ve really [01:03:25] cracked it. That’s that’s not as easy as the nice things. But yeah, it’s a [01:03:30] it’s a big responsibility having being a leader. And you’re right, people are watching you all the time. [01:03:35] Your body language, what you say.

Payman Langroudi: I’m going to ask you another question. Now I’ve asked this question several times of, [01:03:40] you know, clinicians. And it’s a very unfair question. But if [01:03:45] you had to think of an aha moment. What was [01:03:50] an aha moment for you in terms of leadership? What happened? [01:03:55]

Mark Allan: Cool. I’ve never been asked that question before. And [01:04:00] you kind of have to go with the first thing that leaps into your mind, don’t you? I think [01:04:05] it was certainly a very early trigger, whether it was an aha moment, I [01:04:10] don’t know. I remember working for somebody years ago who was a big influence when I was a graduate trainee. [01:04:15] She kind of took me under her wing and I would I was like her e I’d go around with a go [01:04:20] to meetings, watch what she did, and she said to me, we were driving back along the M62 [01:04:25] and this is about 1996 years ago. And she was just chatting and she said [01:04:30] to me, you’re, you’re going to be a really great leader because people really like you. And [01:04:35] I didn’t think anything of it. But for some reason I remember that. And [01:04:40] I think that’s pretty true. I don’t think I’ve got too many enemies out there, but actually when you [01:04:45] realise that’s that’s that’s powerful to know that, because if you [01:04:50] can then realise people naturally are drawn towards you, then you can really engage with them on [01:04:55] a different level and you can help their understanding of what you’re trying to do. They’ll give you the time. So that’s probably [01:05:00] the one I’d I’d pick. And it’s true not just with people you lead. It’s true. It’s so true in teams. So [01:05:05] many teams that you work with or suppliers you’re dealing.

Payman Langroudi: With or, you know, they [01:05:10] say dentists never get sued by a patient that likes them or whatever, whatever they do, you know, [01:05:15] and it’s a massive issue with young dentists right now that worried about being sued. [01:05:20] Yeah, it’s a huge worry for them. It’s the number one thing. Yeah. And my advice always is, you know. Okay. You’re [01:05:25] inexperienced. You know, you don’t know the clinical as much as you will in ten years time. Yeah. But [01:05:30] if you can be nice to people. Yeah.

Mark Allan: And kind and.

Payman Langroudi: Kind and from a clinical perspective, [01:05:35] don’t hurt them. Yeah. So there’s a thing with a painless injection.

Mark Allan: Yeah. [01:05:40] And it doesn’t mean you go out of your way to want to be liked all the time. But if if [01:05:45] there’s this underlying piece, which is you can connect with people, they [01:05:50] warm to you. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then even if the worst thing happens clinically, [01:05:55] those patients don’t sue. Yeah. Because they think, you know, you’re a kind person who is doing your best. And then you [01:06:00] get the opposite, where you get a technical dentist who’s very good at actually [01:06:05] the teeth, but hasn’t got that EQ piece. Yeah. And get [01:06:10] sued. Yeah. You know, and it’s important thing to understand, you know, that that EQ [01:06:15] part of it.

Mark Allan: Yeah. And everything’s about people. Even with all of the [01:06:20] developments around AI, it’s still about people, because whatever you do with that has [01:06:25] got to be able to be used by people and and embraced by people. [01:06:30] So, um, yeah, that would probably be my, my aha moment. I think along along with [01:06:35] many others, I’m sure if I really thought about it.

Payman Langroudi: Talking of AI, I’m [01:06:40] sure there’s massive laws around what you guys can and can’t do with with the medical [01:06:45] notes, right? Yeah. But is is that I mean, the data that you guys have [01:06:50] as a company must be gold to, to train a [01:06:55] model. Is that a conversation you guys are having?

Mark Allan: Well, certainly when I talk about the, the, [01:07:00] the power of Bupa, which is the way we how do we bring the power of Bupa to fuel the [01:07:05] Dental business? Um, the data and our data capability would undoubtedly [01:07:10] be be one. Yeah. One of those things, um, clearly, Uh, going [01:07:15] right back to when we talked about things like GDPR and data security. That’s got to be done very responsibly, [01:07:20] of course. And, um, but of course we’re looking at data [01:07:25] that I mentioned. I know where the, the people who claim on the Dental insurance [01:07:30] are. Yeah. Now, I might not have marketing access to them, but [01:07:35] I might have marketing access to them. Um, so used responsibly. [01:07:40] Data for Bupa is a is a really big, um, uh, priority. [01:07:45] And I suppose this is where you start to get the power of being part of a big group, because the investment we [01:07:50] can put into that and being a provident association without short term [01:07:55] demands on our returns, we can make big bets on that. So [01:08:00] it’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Very unique position.

Mark Allan: Yeah. It’s powerful. And yeah, just to give you an example, um, I [01:08:05] met when we were chatting before I mentioned I’d been in San Francisco. I was in San Francisco going behind [01:08:10] the scenes at Netflix, LinkedIn, meta, and On Amazon and talking to VCs out [01:08:15] there and seeing what they’re doing with generative AI, spatial computing, which I didn’t really understand [01:08:20] until I got there. But VR headsets and what that can do. On Monday, my team [01:08:25] and I were with Microsoft in their generative AI lab, talking to them about how [01:08:30] this potentially revolutionary touches maybe everything, whether [01:08:35] it’s the diagnosis or note taking or just the back office stuff, [01:08:40] and you’ve got people in there working for Microsoft who are using just co-pilot. And [01:08:45] these are just executives, not not clinical people, but they’re saying they’ve got a day, a half [01:08:50] a day, a week back of their time already with fairly amateur use of co-pilot with [01:08:55] where it’s at, just because they’re not hunting around for stuff. If you’ve used ChatGPT, [01:09:00] um, instead of using a standard search engine. Now, [01:09:05] if you ask a good question, the amount of time it saves you from hunting through pages and pages comes [01:09:10] back with a great example is really powerful. So yeah, that’s high on our on [01:09:15] our agenda. And um, I think you would probably see us invest in that before [01:09:20] going and buying 500 more practice practices. Sure.

Payman Langroudi: Sure.

Mark Allan: So yeah, [01:09:25] we’ll.

Payman Langroudi: Come to the end of our time. I’m gonna end it with the usual questions [01:09:30] to fantasy dinner party. Yeah. Three [01:09:35] guests. Three guests. Dead or alive.

Mark Allan: Dead or alive. Who do you have? Um, cam, one [01:09:40] of the guests. Be a couple. I just was wondering about the rules here. So the first [01:09:45] one, um, I would invite my nan and grandad, um, back, and, [01:09:50] hey, be amazing to see them. But I look back and think [01:09:55] I didn’t ask them any questions. Really. I didn’t understand what it was like to live through the Second World War. [01:10:00] My nan grew up in East London and was an evacuee. Went to Peterborough, [01:10:05] which is, you know, had that not happened, I wouldn’t be here because that’s where I’m from. And my granddad [01:10:10] fought in the war and just I’m fascinated by that whole period and what people went [01:10:15] through. And we’ve got no idea. I think when we moan about things, what it was like then. So I’d love to have them just so [01:10:20] that we could get them to tell some stories about what it was really like.

Payman Langroudi: I was, I was in, um, Canterbury [01:10:25] Cathedral and a guy came up to me, it was clear he was a volunteer, [01:10:30] and he said he was 88 and remembers large [01:10:35] bits of Canterbury being flattened. Yeah. And you don’t think of it as I [01:10:40] mean, you see it on Gaza or something, but you don’t think of the UK as being flattened? No. And large [01:10:45] bits of the UK were flattened.

Mark Allan: Yeah. So they would be there. Uh, I think I’d [01:10:50] probably invite Barack Obama. I’m not really sure why, [01:10:55] but I think I’d probably. I’d really like to see the way he worked the table, because he’s just so smooth and, [01:11:00] you know, he walks in a room and everyone knows he’s there, but he doesn’t come across as just a groundedness. [01:11:05] So I think I’d pick him And I.

[TRANSITION]: Think.

Mark Allan: I would pick Rory [01:11:10] McIlroy. Um, because I’m fascinated. I find him [01:11:15] fascinating as well. Absolute genius, but vulnerable. Yeah. And publicly vulnerable. [01:11:20] And I feel I feel really drawn to to him. If you did a [01:11:25] video call with me, you’d see on my wall behind me, like different sporting people. And I couldn’t work out. There were [01:11:30] just people that I wanted to watch them on TV when when it came on and stop everything. And Rory [01:11:35] is one of those. But they’re all people who are, like, slightly flawed geniuses. They’ve got something. [01:11:40]

Payman Langroudi: Alex Higgins. Yeah.

Mark Allan: He’s not on there. But. Jemmy. Jemmy white. Jemmy white would be. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:11:45] So, look, you must be incredibly busy. But if you did have an afternoon to yourself. [01:11:50] I’m talking to yourself. No. No wife, no kids.

Mark Allan: No, no. No obligation, no obligation. [01:11:55] I’ve got to say the right thing. Yeah. What would you. What would you do? Oh. Good [01:12:00] question. It’s [01:12:05] a really good question, because you don’t [01:12:10] get that much time to actually have the luxury of being able to, to, to, to do that. [01:12:15] I think I’d either do one of two things. I would I would go and play golf [01:12:20] on my own, quite happy to go and just like me versus the course, [01:12:25] just relax or I would go to somewhere I’ve been on holiday [01:12:30] and just sit by the pool with a drink and a book and have [01:12:35] a sleep and read a bit of the book and listen to something on some music or something [01:12:40] and just chill.

Payman Langroudi: So look, for instance, if you go to San Francisco for work, is [01:12:45] your diary chock a block hour by hour, or [01:12:50] can you walk off and see a bit of San Francisco?

Mark Allan: So it was pretty chock a block [01:12:55] that week. That was a one week trip to Seattle and San Francisco with all of those companies built in. So it was daytime. [01:13:00] All right.

Payman Langroudi: But can’t you say, look, I want one day before and one day after, or is that.

Mark Allan: Is that not.

Payman Langroudi: The way it works? [01:13:05]

Mark Allan: 100%. I could have I could have flown out on the Friday, not the Sunday. Oh, you could have. I could have done. Yeah. [01:13:10] And, uh, but it meant being away from home for longer. My, my wife and [01:13:15] I were trying to work out whether she on the way back, could she fly to New York? Could I fly to [01:13:20] New York? And maybe we could have 3 or 4 days in New York? Yeah. Um, and my wife [01:13:25] and I were looking at civil when we went to spend time with Sunita’s last week, and it [01:13:30] sounds great. Come out. Um, but we never, never can make it work. [01:13:35] And, yeah, I don’t think I’d go and do it on my own. I think I would probably that would be pushing it a [01:13:40] bit far. Half a half a day, I reckon I’d get, I’d get permission for. [01:13:45] I’ve just been got an invite yesterday from, uh, Pacific Health in [01:13:50] the US, um, who we know, and we’ve been talking to a lot. And there’s a, there’s some conference [01:13:55] going on in Tuscany, and I’ve sent me this invite. We would love you to come to this [01:14:00] thing about five days in this Tuscan villa, and you just get treated like royalty, but [01:14:05] it’s this. I think it’s the same week as the, um, Bupa Global Senior Leaders Conference and [01:14:10] the Straumann CEO conference. Um, so.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:14:15] I mean, look, I saw how difficult it was to get you here for an hour. Yeah, yeah. So, [01:14:20] see, you’re very, very busy. Final question. It’s a deathbed question. Yeah. On [01:14:25] your deathbed, surrounded by your loved ones. Hopefully, by that time, great [01:14:30] grandchildren or whatever it is. Yeah. What are the three pieces of advice you’d leave them?

Mark Allan: Uh, [01:14:35] the the first one we’ve kind of got into [01:14:40] a little bit earlier. So, uh, try and make [01:14:45] sure you spend time trying to get to know yourself for sure. I think it’s incredibly [01:14:50] powerful. Um. Uh, I don’t know if this is the right [01:14:55] phrase, but perfection is the enemy of progress. Something like that. I see, too, [01:15:00] and I was guilty of this. I see too many people striving for perfection. You. You [01:15:05] don’t get anywhere and be kind. Be kind to yourself. I think those [01:15:10] those three things would be probably what I’d pick. Brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much for doing [01:15:15] this.

Mark Allan: It’s been a massive honour. I’ve really enjoyed it. That’s great.

[VOICE]: This is [01:15:20] Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with [01:15:25] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:15:30] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:15:35] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge [01:15:40] thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and [01:15:45] what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

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