Payman Langroudi: But the one that’s important to you is experience, right? It’s difficult to measure that, isn’t it?

Kunal Thakker: Yeah. And so coming to experience. So this is one [00:00:05] we’re really really focusing on right now. And the patient experience. Because when you go on things like Trustpilot [00:00:10] or Google reviews you know you’re not always you’re either going to get two extremes. You’re going to get the patient that’s got [00:00:15] really upset and hasn’t had an opportunity to vent their frustration in practice. Right. Okay. Or [00:00:20] you’ve got the, um, you’ve got the ones where you’ve said, oh, please [00:00:25] leave me a Google review. Right. Yeah. Naturally, they’re going to sit in the chair. They’re going to give you a five star whilst they sat there in the chair giving [00:00:30] you a five star. So that doesn’t give me a real perspective on the actually going on what’s actually [00:00:35] going on. So you know. So we’re looking at ways in which of how we change, how we change things [00:00:40] and really analyse experience. Now one of the things that concepts that I’m looking at and this is [00:00:45] still very fresh actually my management team don’t even know know about this completely.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:50] is Dental Leaders, [00:00:55] the podcast where you get to go one on one with [00:01:00] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:01:05] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:01:10] gives me great pleasure to welcome Kunal Thakkar onto the podcast. Kunal [00:01:15] has got a very interesting past life in banking. Um, [00:01:20] Goldman Sachs guy. Um, I think then you went on to HSBC [00:01:25] after that. So banker first and foremost, before he got into the world of dentistry, [00:01:30] but then got into the world of dentistry in a very quick way. Um, I think first you had a group of three [00:01:35] practices that you sold. Yeah. And then what most [00:01:40] of us would, would think of when we think of you is, is Tooth Club. Um, which is [00:01:45] how many now?

Kunal Thakker: So we’re actually we’re building number 12 and we’re just about to [00:01:50] start number 13. So 13. Yeah. So amazing.

Payman Langroudi: And so membership [00:01:55] based high street squat Squats, sort of funky sort of Instagram [00:02:00] type practices. Right? Is that what?

Kunal Thakker: Yeah. Let me take you back actually even pre [00:02:05] kind of Goldman Sachs. So yeah. So my love hate relationship with dentistry [00:02:10] came from when I was a child. Um, and something I haven’t told on a podcast before actually. [00:02:15] So, um, I grew up as a child, uh, hated going to the dentist. Um, [00:02:20] and I was born, born and brought up in East London. I used to have a dental practice on Green Street, actually [00:02:25] still exist. And this practice was just awful. I used to walk into this practice, [00:02:30] still smell it today. I can smell that horrible disinfectant smell. Um, and, [00:02:35] you know, I could there was, like, these dirty toys on the side. I wasn’t sure whether you’re allowed to play with them or not. And then the receptionist [00:02:40] just wouldn’t look up. It was like she was just an NHS proper or NHS old school. And [00:02:45] then, you know, Doctor Tindall was the dentist name. I still remember the name. Doctor Tindall was in the back with his door [00:02:50] open and you could just hear that drilling, sawing noise. It was horrendous. The anxiety [00:02:55] Society there in the waiting room was horrendous and as a child I needed [00:03:00] orthodontic treatment. What I thought was orthodontic treatment. And so I got a referral, [00:03:05] got a note through the, um, the post, and I got sent to one of the central London hospitals [00:03:10] and they actually said, no, you don’t need orthodontic treatment, you need to have surgery. You need to have orthognathic. [00:03:15] Yes, I had a class three jaw at the time and it was horrendous. And [00:03:20] I remember going there and it was it was awful. And I um, and they sent us a follow up [00:03:25] appointment, and I got the appointment and I ripped it up and put it in the bin. Right. Without [00:03:30] my mum seeing. And so my mum just assumed this appointment never, never came. And [00:03:35] so she chased the appointment. Another postcard, got a postcard through the door, tore that up. [00:03:40] And I never got the treatment done. And it was because I was so terrified and so petrified.

Payman Langroudi: The source of [00:03:45] the fear. Had you had one bad experience? Do you.

Kunal Thakker: Know? I just think the whole experience was so anxiety, [00:03:50] fearful. Um, I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes they say, I mean, obviously in dental school this [00:03:55] is a big question, right? They they talk about it a lot. And it’s interesting. The phobias [00:04:00] there’s an obvious cause of a phobia is if you’ve had a bad experience. But the more [00:04:05] common cause of a phobia is familial phobia, where the family spreads [00:04:10] the story that, oh, going to the dentist is scary, or flying on planes [00:04:15] is scary or whatever the phobia is. But, you know, do you remember a story like that in the family?

Kunal Thakker: So not necessarily [00:04:20] a story, but going to the dentist as a child was never pleasurable. Everyone always, you know, you know, [00:04:25] you used to go to the dentist because you’ve got toothache and toothache would be extremely painful. The whole [00:04:30] experience was just horrendous. And and I don’t think there was the education that we have now around [00:04:35] good oral hygiene as well. Right? Yeah. Um, although I think it was more strict about going to the dentist every six [00:04:40] months. Um, but that, that, that experience and that whole environment and just, [00:04:45] you know, even I think it’s also about who you connect with. I’m a real people person. I bounce off energy. Um, and [00:04:50] I never bounced off his energy. And I think, in fact, I was almost very scared by his energy and I’d be very stuck [00:04:55] in that chair. And that’s that’s where my relationship with dentistry started. And as I [00:05:00] went through my career, I never, ever wanted to do dentistry, never a passion to do dentistry at [00:05:05] all. Um, and it wasn’t even necessarily, um, a desire. I then kind of [00:05:10] went into the finance world because it was kind of the thing to do. Um, and I joined HSBC. [00:05:15] Um, I did a little internship at HSBC, actually. First, that was my, uh, [00:05:20] entry into Goldman Sachs. Graduated from university, uh, got a job at Goldman Sachs. [00:05:25] I did it because the money was there. Everyone said it was a sexy career.

Payman Langroudi: Did you study at university?

Kunal Thakker: I [00:05:30] did business and finance. Um, and so it was kind of a natural. What did your parents [00:05:35] do? My parents owned a shop, so actually on Green Street. So they had a they had a shop and.

Payman Langroudi: Classic [00:05:40] corner.

Kunal Thakker: Shop, well, kind of corner ish shop, but we had a newsagent and then we [00:05:45] had a video shop. So a couple of shops. So my.

Payman Langroudi: My co-host Prav, I don’t know if you’ve come across him.

Kunal Thakker: Yes [00:05:50] I have, yeah Of course. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, his dad had a shop. Yeah. And him [00:05:55] and his brother, Kailash Solanki. They are some of the most successful [00:06:00] people I’ve ever come across in business terms. They really are super successful. Both of [00:06:05] them. And, um. Prav puts it all down to the shop. Yeah. The interactions [00:06:10] with the public. Yeah. In the shop. And his thing was that, you know, if you if you [00:06:15] work in a shop, especially like a general store. Yeah. You see, the whole of society [00:06:20] come by from the guy coming in to get his cigarettes. The old, the old, dear who needs to have a conversation [00:06:25] with you? The thief? Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember the shop being [00:06:30] an influence on you in that people person?

Kunal Thakker: A massive influence because a lot of people remember their childhoods. Like [00:06:35] playing outside. Mine wasn’t. Mine was helping my parents in the shop over the summer holidays. Yeah. You know, [00:06:40] stocking up the fridge when the cash and carry had arrived. And so there was a lot of that in my childhood. But then [00:06:45] also, um, my parents were always pro us working and getting work experience and [00:06:50] so ended up doing. I always had a Saturday job, so I worked in Woolworths, worked in Tkmaxx [00:06:55] and those experiences are amazing.

Payman Langroudi: What was what was the driver of that? Was it was it that your [00:07:00] dad said, you’re going to go and work and go because that that did happen to me, or [00:07:05] was it? And sometimes I hear this story, and the people who tell this story tend to be [00:07:10] super successful. People that I’ve come across is I just wanted stuff. Yeah. There was [00:07:15] a phone or a computer or a pair of trainers I wanted and [00:07:20] the money wasn’t there, so I just went and went and earned the money.

Kunal Thakker: You know, it wasn’t it actually wasn’t [00:07:25] that actually, because my parents were very much, um, you have to save my dad always taught us [00:07:30] to save. Um, and so even though we had a Saturday job, it was always about [00:07:35] 75% of that Saturday job. The money had to be saved and went into savings. We had one of those Abbey National, [00:07:40] uh, kind of logbooks. So no, I think it was more the work ethic of, you know, you [00:07:45] can’t be a freeloader. Nothing can in life are free. Go work. Learn to graft. Um. [00:07:50] And I actually really loved Saturday job. Made some of the best friends there that I’m still in touch with. [00:07:55] Um, and I think that that just gave me the ability to graft. So when Prav says, um, you know, it’s [00:08:00] a shop days, it really was, you know, that commercial retail, um, kind [00:08:05] of learning, I think has gone through my entire entire journey and [00:08:10] even in dentistry today. Right? Yeah. You know, I don’t have a problem cleaning my practice because I’ve been brought [00:08:15] up doing that. Um, you know, it’s it’s, you know, setting up for a CQC practice [00:08:20] when we’re doing one of our squads, I go in there and rolled my sleeves up, get absolutely dirty because I’ve [00:08:25] been used to. I think, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Chris Barrow talks about how, um, it’s good to hire a [00:08:30] practice manager or as many people as you can in your practice, from a background of [00:08:35] someone whose parents were business owners. Yeah. Because when when your parents are business owners, and I think [00:08:40] my kids, probably my kids probably know this too. There are moments where the business is number one. [00:08:45] Yeah. And everyone understands that. Yeah. Well, if your parents were employees. [00:08:50] Yeah. They don’t necessarily understand that. No. You know, like what you’re saying about CQC [00:08:55] there? Yeah.

Kunal Thakker: It’s. You know, it’s true because I always say because I [00:09:00] have a lot of respect for the work my parents went through and the journey that my parents went through, um, [00:09:05] working, working the shop. I mean, 60, 70 hours a week. Um, and [00:09:10] they did it with a smile on their face. Never once moaned, you know. And that’s the work ethic, the graft that I [00:09:15] love. But I also believe when you’re trying to scale up a group and I’m going through [00:09:20] my childhood, I mean, some of it’s actually childhood trauma. Because what I’ve been taught and I’ve had to undo [00:09:25] some of some of the things, is my parents wouldn’t necessarily be able [00:09:30] to afford to hire someone, so they grafted a lot. So why are we going to pay someone else to do it when we can do it ourselves? [00:09:35] Yeah. And actually, when you’re scaling up a business, actually you do need to employ people. You do need to hire [00:09:40] people around you. Um, so that you can go and do the value added stuff and to scale up. [00:09:45] So for me, in my journey, um, at Tooth Club has been a lot about undoing some of the oh, I [00:09:50] could do it myself. I could do it. No, actually, do you know what? I’m going to hire the best people around me to do it.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:09:55] did you learn that at Goldman?

Kunal Thakker: Huh? No, I didn’t actually. I learned it through Tooth Club. I learned it up to Tooth Club [00:10:00] because I got to a point in my tooth Club journey where I couldn’t do everything, I couldn’t do everything. [00:10:05] And then, you know, and what I also learned is there are people that are better at things than me. [00:10:10]

Payman Langroudi: Pretty much everything.

Kunal Thakker: Exactly. Absolutely. You know, higher talent, people around you and hire. [00:10:15] And I’m still learning this as well. You know, I want to hire people that are just as passionate about my brand [00:10:20] and about my company as I am. And actually, I spend most of my time thinking about how I’m going [00:10:25] to make people feel passionate about Tooth Club so that they can help us, help us scale.

Payman Langroudi: Have [00:10:30] you heard, um, Gary Vee talking? Sometimes he talks about his father’s liquor store. [00:10:35] I haven’t. Do you know about it? No, I don’t, so his father was a Russian immigrant, made him work every [00:10:40] hour. And he said in that liquor store he could see mistakes his dad was making. Yeah. [00:10:45] And then at one point, he takes it over and it goes suddenly from $2 million to $60 million. Yeah. [00:10:50] But but is there any of that? So there’s there’s one that you just mentioned. Yeah. Anything [00:10:55] else? Like, because, you know, that sort of first generation mindset sometimes [00:11:00] is like a non-trusting. Yeah. Mindset. Sometimes it’s a purely on a cash basis [00:11:05] because it’s survival. Exactly. That’s the key. Like they’re not going borrowing 5 million from the bank or whatever. [00:11:10]

Kunal Thakker: Yeah. There is you know there’s definitely the risk element. So certainly, um, you [00:11:15] know, my dad loves what we’re building at Tooth Club, and he’s probably one of my biggest fans. And, you know, he wants to look at [00:11:20] my PNL, and he’s asking me how much we’re borrowing and all this kind of stuff. But there is definitely, [00:11:25] um, a risk averse mindset there. Whereas I’m like, actually, do you know what? Measured risk [00:11:30] where I’ve proven the model, I’m not going to be reckless. I have self-belief and trust that I’m not going to be reckless, [00:11:35] um, to go to go and do that. Absolutely. I also think there’s a Generally, [00:11:40] especially with some of the podcasts that I listen to about failure. And you know it’s [00:11:45] okay to fail. Yeah, you know, it is okay to fail because actually you can learn. [00:11:50] And some of my biggest successes have come in have come from where I failed, learn and bounce [00:11:55] back. Um, and I think that that concepts more readily understood now [00:12:00] these days. Yeah. These days for sure. Whereas I think kind of in the past, you know, even, uh, one [00:12:05] of the one of my backstories as well is I did my A levels and I failed them, [00:12:10] I did classic my parents wanted me to be a doctor.

Kunal Thakker: Good Indian boy. Go and do. Go and be a doctor. Biology. Chemistry? [00:12:15] Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Failed them. Absolutely. Hated every minute of it. Um, [00:12:20] I was like, what am I doing here? And I did really well at GCSEs. Right. So because I did well at GCSE, it was [00:12:25] the assumed thing that you’re going to do them at A-level. But A-level and GCE is a different a completely different game. But I also [00:12:30] think, you know if you love something you do you’re going to do really, really well at it. So I failed [00:12:35] my first year and they’re like, oh, you’ve just reset them. Absolutely not. I went and kind of put my foot down and said, I’m going [00:12:40] to do the A-levels I want. And I went and did accounting business and I did drama. Probably drama [00:12:45] to kind of, you know, really kind of rebel against against the sciences. And I did [00:12:50] really well and I really enjoyed what I did. And it was a really a turning point in my life because I kind of said, actually, [00:12:55] I’m going to be making my own decisions no one’s making. Did you stay.

Payman Langroudi: At home for uni or did you leave?

Kunal Thakker: Do you know? Funnily enough, [00:13:00] I stayed at home, but that was my decision. It wasn’t really a oh, you can’t, you know, you can’t live out. You [00:13:05] can’t. I actually chose to live at home. I wanted to go to a London uni. I wanted to experience the London nightlife [00:13:10] and that first year of freshers lifestyle. So I made the choice to to to [00:13:15] stay at home. But my uni years were probably the best, uh uh best. But you [00:13:20] know, again, I, you know, I had an offer from Kings to do business and maths and [00:13:25] everyone said, oh, you’ve got to go to King’s, you’ve got to take the, the offer at King’s, it’s like, no, I’m not [00:13:30] going to King’s, I’m going to go to Westminster. Well Westminster’s not the same level as King’s. And I said, no, I’m going to do [00:13:35] Westminster because I preferred the course, so it was always that was a turning point about making my [00:13:40] own decisions. Um, and also being accountable for my own decisions because I can’t, you know, [00:13:45] because I sit here today and say, I did business, I did biology, chemistry, maths because my parents wanted [00:13:50] to me, I’m kind of blaming them. Yeah, yeah. No, I need to own my own decisions. I allowed myself to be swayed. [00:13:55] Whereas now I think there’s a not an arrogance. I still take feedback. I still [00:14:00] take people’s point of view across. But when I make a decision, ultimate accountability sits here. [00:14:05] Yeah. And that’s that’s so I think when we talk about traumas or kind of influences, [00:14:10] um, from childhood, these are the things that have been been really important.

Payman Langroudi: So I want to get into two [00:14:15] aspects. I definitely want to get into two, but I want to get into two aspects before that. Number one, [00:14:20] the sort of disruptor mindset that you’ve clearly got. Yeah. [00:14:25] Where do you think that comes from?

Kunal Thakker: It’s so interesting. You’re [00:14:30] really good at this because I think, you know, because we before we started this, you said, oh, you know, I’ve done a few podcasts, [00:14:35] but actually you’re getting things out of me that I’ve not really talked about on podcasts. So the disruptor mindset [00:14:40] comes from. So when I say when I wanted to go into dentistry, [00:14:45] um, I went on a course, um, how to buy your first dental practice course, and [00:14:50] I met a lawyer there, and that lawyer said to me, oh, you’re not a dentist, you’re never going to buy a dental practice. [00:14:55] And and it’s a big law firm still, actually, they’ve just actually I can’t say, [00:15:00] but yeah, still a big law firm. Big law firm. And, um, you know, they and they and they said [00:15:05] that to me and I so that was, you know, when someone’s.

Payman Langroudi: In your craw.

Kunal Thakker: That [00:15:10] got you. That got me. It’s interesting, isn’t it? You tell me I can’t do something, I’m going to do it and I’m going to do it ten times harder. [00:15:15] But along the journey, I mean, that was probably the start. But along the journey, there have [00:15:20] been a lot of people that have said, you can’t do this, you’re not a dentist or you don’t understand [00:15:25] this, how could you understand this? You’re not clinical. You know you’ve not got a BDS or I’m more qualified than you [00:15:30] because I’ve been to King’s and I.

Payman Langroudi: Say that that drives you. Yeah. [00:15:35] And that why?

Kunal Thakker: Why drives me. Why?

Payman Langroudi: Why like, where was it like, at what point did someone sort of [00:15:40] mis misrepresent you or think think [00:15:45] that you’re not good enough? That made you think. Was it something in childhood?

Kunal Thakker: Hmm. [00:15:50] Do you know? I think there’s there’s there’s moments in childhood. [00:15:55] So. So my personality is is I’m I was really, really nice. And I will treat you [00:16:00] with a huge amount of respect. But if you cross me, then you’ll see a different side. And I think [00:16:05] there’s always been that. Scorpio. Scorpio. Yeah, well, no cancer actually, but it’s [00:16:10] it’s it’s a bit of a sting in the tail actually. Sting because, you know, the thing [00:16:15] is, is I always want to give people the benefit of the doubt. And I always will be open. You come into my home. It is your home. [00:16:20] You’re welcome. And and not not just surface level. Wholeheartedly. Yeah. You [00:16:25] know, you come, you know, you come into my practices. You come into my world. Um, but then there’s, [00:16:30] you know, but I’m not naive and I’m not silly. I may be open and nice [00:16:35] and warm and welcoming, but I’m not silly. I know people.

Payman Langroudi: Mistake that sometimes.

Kunal Thakker: Sometimes they do, and sometimes [00:16:40] they take advantage of that and where and and I pick up on that very quickly because it’s happened so many [00:16:45] times. You’ve seen the pattern, I see the pattern and I see where it happens. And I’m not necessarily [00:16:50] one that’s going to bite back and I’m not going to go in and sting necessarily, but I will remove myself from that situation. [00:16:55] Um, and that’s and that’s always been my, my personality and, and [00:17:00] it’s, and it’s hard because, you know, it’s these things that make you think, oh, this is my drive. This is my energy, actually. [00:17:05] Why I’m successful in dentistry or why I have been successful in the practice I’ve done, is because of the people [00:17:10] I’ve always surrounded myself with really, really, really good people. People that are humble, [00:17:15] people that have taken the time. When I started dentistry, I didn’t know what composite was, right? [00:17:20] Yeah, I knew it as a white filling as a patient. So I said, what’s this word, composite? But people took the time [00:17:25] to explain this is composite take out, you know, take out the composite. Show me what it is. It’s a white filling. So [00:17:30] I was like, okay, great. And then you know, so and they’ve also these people have also made me feel [00:17:35] like I could ask those stupid questions early on in my Dental career so that now I can [00:17:40] have a full fledged conversation with a clinician. Um, and I always respect the fact that dentists has done the BDS. [00:17:45] They’ve gone to uni, they’ve done the five year sacrifice plus the training post. So I always have a [00:17:50] huge amount of respect. So whenever I’m talking to a dentist, I always caveat, look, I’m not a dentist, but I can certainly see it [00:17:55] from a patient perspective. Um, and I think having that trust and relationship, um, and I’ve had more [00:18:00] good people than bad people on this journey.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s a skill in itself. Finding [00:18:05] those people, keeping those people, keeping those people on. Definitely. The other question, what’s [00:18:10] the thing that surprised you the most about dentistry?

Kunal Thakker: The [00:18:15] ego. The ego that that tends to be in dentistry and not everywhere. [00:18:20] Not not everywhere. But certainly there is a lot of, of of ego, um, [00:18:25] in dentistry because I come from a place so, you know, at Goldman Sachs, there was [00:18:30] generally a culture where you are encouraging, supporting each other. [00:18:35] Uh, you know, you tend to go up the ranks yourself. You know, you know, when we started [00:18:40] the Goldman Sachs graduation program, you were part of a club. Of course, there was an element of competition. Who’s [00:18:45] going to get promoted first? But generally underlyingly, if someone called you for help, you were collaboratively [00:18:50] working together, you were helping. There was a general consensus to improve. And even [00:18:55] outside of Goldman Sachs, we used to work in industry groups. The whole industry wanted to improve. Um, [00:19:00] and there was a real desire to work with each other because you knew that if the industry got better. [00:19:05]

Payman Langroudi: The overriding goal.

Kunal Thakker: And and within Dental, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: So surprising to hear [00:19:10] that bankers have less ego than dentists. But go on, go on.

Kunal Thakker: They do. Honestly, [00:19:15] they do. And I think but I also think in banking there’s always someone there that’s better than you. There’s [00:19:20] always someone at some level, you know, if you’re an MD, there’s a partner that’s better than you. There’s [00:19:25] partner, there’s someone on the exec level that’s better than you. So there’s always this desire. And I [00:19:30] think, and because you’re always striving to get to that next level and those levels are very clear. You [00:19:35] know, one of the things in banking is people don’t like egos. People people generally want [00:19:40] to work with nice people. And so you see that those people that can’t do that get filtered out [00:19:45] very early on probably don’t even get to MD. So I think I came to dentistry and I saw [00:19:50] a lot of this competition, and it is changing and it’s really evolving. So one [00:19:55] of the things is I’m part of a dental group, and those dental groups are really cutting all the small [00:20:00] groups that are not private equity backed, and they’re all helping each other and they all kind of giving each other little [00:20:05] snippets. You know, if I want to change an accountancy firm, for example, I can say, guys, have you used an accountancy firm [00:20:10] that you’d recommend and people would kind of help each other out? So you’re starting to see that evolution. [00:20:15] Was that.

Payman Langroudi: The ADR?

Kunal Thakker: No, actually. So you’ve [00:20:20] got the ADG, but actually, um Jin and Krish, the Smile Clinic group have put [00:20:25] together a group with their network and it’s kind of evolved. So when we were at the Dental forum, there was a few more groups [00:20:30] that joined. So everyone’s at a different size. So, you know, you’ve got kind of Demir and [00:20:35] Pip who have kind of got the bigger groups in that space. And then you’ve got, you know, us kind of more middle ground, [00:20:40] and then you’ve got the people that kind of got 2 or 3 that are still early on in their journey, but generally everyone’s [00:20:45] trying to help each other because there’s so much that can be achieved by working together. And I think that I [00:20:50] think it’s changing, but I do think it certainly did shock me.

Payman Langroudi: So the ego surprised you now? [00:20:55] Have you managed to find a way of handling the egos, or do [00:21:00] you try and filter for that when you’re hiring or what’s the story?

Kunal Thakker: So our [00:21:05] culture at Goldman. Goldman’s our our culture and values at Tooth Club are really, really important. [00:21:10] And we’re really strong about what our culture and values look like. And we hire of culture [00:21:15] and values. So we will hire people with less skill, right clinically [00:21:20] but have the right attitude and skill sets and ability. And then we’ve got the Truth Club Training Academy, which is [00:21:25] really focussed on bringing people up in terms of their clinical skill sets. And we’ve had some great stories, [00:21:30] great success stories where people come in, you know, they’ve, you know, had probably a year post-grad [00:21:35] and they’re still doing the general really excited to do things like composite bonding, um, Invisalign. [00:21:40] And we’ll help take them on that journey with the right clinical supervision, right training courses, [00:21:45] the right materials and stock equipment. And that for us has worked really, really well. And, [00:21:50] um, I was looking at our retention rate around our associate level. So our retention rates, [00:21:55] over 98% of associates that start with us, stay with us. Um, and ah. [00:22:00] So how long so have not left.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, guys.

Kunal Thakker: Have not left to this date. So [00:22:05] we’ve been on this journey for four years, so have not left. Um, and I think and [00:22:10] I, and I, and I think it comes down to relationships that we build with these guys. We make sure their diaries [00:22:15] are full. We make sure they’re making good money, they’re doing nice dentistry, and they’re set up to work in a really [00:22:20] nice environment. So, you know, and that’s why, um, I think, um, you know, that’s [00:22:25] kind of been our success. But hiring off culture, hiring people that align to your values, I think [00:22:30] are really important. And trust me, there’s many times where I’ve interviewed really strong clinicians. Great. [00:22:35] You know, because I can tell now I’ve interviewed so many dentists, I can tell the ones that are junior, the ones [00:22:40] that, you know, are confident, um, the ones that are that have had kind [00:22:45] of five, seven, eight years out of university but are not necessarily confident, um, [00:22:50] and it’s more of a soft skill thing. I can see the differences, but we will turn down dentists that we feel [00:22:55] that even in a tough recruitment environment, we will turn down dentists that don’t fit our our culture and [00:23:00] values and aren’t on the same vision and mission as we are.

Payman Langroudi: And is [00:23:05] your biggest problem right now? Recruitment? No. What’s your biggest problem right now?

Kunal Thakker: Uh, [00:23:10] finding new squat sites, finding high street locations.

Payman Langroudi: So many of those. Right.

Kunal Thakker: So there are so, so [00:23:15] we are so we’re looking at we’re looking to build. So right now. So we’re in the process [00:23:20] of building one. We just signed a lease on another. So we’re about to start the building, work on that. And then I’ve [00:23:25] got another one that’s in the pipeline. So we’re now looking for the fourth one so we can get to kind of 15 practices. Um, [00:23:30] they’re finding the right site with the right rental. Uh, is [00:23:35] it takes.

Payman Langroudi: I just see loads of empty shops everywhere. So, yeah, I always think I always thought [00:23:40] that that must play into the hands of the squat owner.

Kunal Thakker: Yeah, but we want to be in the right location. The right high streets [00:23:45] aren’t the ones sitting there with 100 empty units. And that’s. And that’s the difference. It’s about finding the [00:23:50] right sites. So the one that we got signed yesterday, the lease that got signed yesterday is in Guildford. Um, you [00:23:55] know, I’ve been saying, what do you.

Payman Langroudi: What are you looking for. Because visibility and then accessibility. Yeah we. [00:24:00]

Kunal Thakker: A lot. So some of.

Payman Langroudi: The park and.

Kunal Thakker: Stuff. So yeah accessibility. So sometimes you don’t find parking. [00:24:05] Um but you know if there’s train links or good bus links that tends to work. So accessibility is important. [00:24:10] Good footfall really, really important. Um, you know the demand for [00:24:15] dentistry is really important as well. Um, how do you measure that. So we. So a couple of things. So [00:24:20] we test Google AdWords. We test social media adverts and say we pretend to have a practice [00:24:25] in that area and see the response rates. Um, and we test and measure those. We [00:24:30] also ring around local practices. How easy is it to get an appointment? Um, those [00:24:35] kinds of things tend to be what gives us comfort. Um, and then honestly, you go and talk to people. [00:24:40] So when we’re in Guildford, we’ll spend the day in Guildford, we’ll go and talk to the guy that’s got the fruit and veg store, [00:24:45] the dry cleaners next door. Those kinds of people are so good at giving insight into, [00:24:50] um, uh, finding out what works. The other thing that we do is we walk into [00:24:55] we walk into dental practices. We see the service levels that they’re offering in dental practices. How [00:25:00] welcoming are those? If I walk in and then you’ve got a reception that won’t even look up, doesn’t know their prices, aren’t [00:25:05] able to offer you an appointment. Those kinds are all the kinds of telling signs that actually, this is a place where [00:25:10] our model could work really well.

Payman Langroudi: That’s interesting. So [00:25:15] let’s talk about the model. Yeah. What would you say is at the crux of it?

Kunal Thakker: So [00:25:20] the, uh. So I guess Tooth Club was set up on the back of my own anxieties [00:25:25] as a dentist. So as a patient rather. And the idea behind [00:25:30] the model is, is we want to change the whole concept of dentistry. We want it to be more accessible. So the location [00:25:35] is key as to where we do that. We want the practices not to look and feel like your traditional dental [00:25:40] practice. Um, so when you come in, you’ve got a really nice environment that you walk into. So we look [00:25:45] at things like how it looks, how it smells, how you’re greeted, um, and how we try and make our patients feel. [00:25:50] So they’re really, really focussed on, on that. And then the experience in chair as well. So all [00:25:55] of our dental practices and then this is more common now. But we have TV screens. You can watch your favourite episode of [00:26:00] Netflix whilst you’re having your root canal done, but making sure that whole patient journey, um, is really [00:26:05] key. And I’d say, what really? If I was to summarise in a nutshell, what I think [00:26:10] is better than any of our competitors is our patient journey. Because when you come into our clinic, [00:26:15] we’re going to make you feel so special. You’re never going to go back to your old practice again, and you’re going [00:26:20] to tell your friends how great we are. And that and it’s a real high standard and benchmark to set [00:26:25] yourself to. But that’s what we’re striving for. And I think we achieve it probably 80 to [00:26:30] 85% of the time.

Payman Langroudi: The the patient journey. [00:26:35] There’s loads of people doing it very well. Yeah. It’s important to bear that in mind. [00:26:40] Yeah. There’s there’s loads of people doing very badly. Yeah. Um, but there’s loads of people doing it very [00:26:45] well. Yeah. Um, don’t you feel, though, that the patient journey is something that’s kind of number [00:26:50] one? Copyable. But number two, the big issue with the patient journey is [00:26:55] that scale gets in the way of it that, you know, it’s [00:27:00] we’re not talking about a commodified product. Like, it’s not something that you can buy off a shelf. Yeah. [00:27:05] And so I’m really interested in in businesses where they’re at scale. [00:27:10] But their journeys weren’t marvellous. Yeah. And whatever. Whatever the business.

Kunal Thakker: Is, you know. So. So when [00:27:15] you said to me that when you started off saying, actually, there’s lots, you know, there’s lots of people doing the patient journey well. Yeah. [00:27:20] Um, I would really challenge that because I think there is a lot of people doing [00:27:25] the patient journey well and really having the clinical side at the forefront. [00:27:30] We hear so many practices saying we’re clinically led, we’re clinically led. We’re not. We are [00:27:35] patient led. Of course we have to maintain clinical standards. Of course we have to abide by the law and [00:27:40] do things by the book. Absolutely. I mean, that’s a given. However, we are patient led. Our [00:27:45] whole focus when we’re designing our clinics is about the patient. And then I was going to challenge [00:27:50] you on was saying, yeah, actually there are people that are doing it. Well, I don’t sit here thinking we do it. I don’t sit here saying we do [00:27:55] it perfectly every single time. Hence why I said the 85%. Um, but I also sit [00:28:00] here knowing there’s people that do it. They do it really well, but they do it in their one clinic. Their two [00:28:05] clinic.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s what I mean about scale.

Kunal Thakker: And then like, let’s get to how do we get to ten. How do we get to 15. That’s [00:28:10] what I mean about yeah. And it is a challenge. It is a challenge. And the way and the way that I really focus on, [00:28:15] on doing this is because we systemise our processes. Every part of our patient journey is [00:28:20] systemised, and there’s an element of the human side that has to be humanised. And so, you [00:28:25] know, and as much as possible, you know, 90% of our patient journey is all about systems and [00:28:30] processes. And then that 10% where you need the human touch, that’s where we rely on our people. [00:28:35] So what do we do? How do we get that bit? It’s through training training training training. [00:28:40] And once we’ve trained we need to police it. And we need to we need to monitor ourselves as to how we’re doing. [00:28:45] Um, and that’s what we’re constantly investing in, is making sure our, our systems [00:28:50] and processes are up to date. Do they reflect the current environment, the current patient journey? [00:28:55] And then we go on to are our people able to deliver the the level that we want [00:29:00] to? Every single day for every single patient that walks into our clinics.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [00:29:05] But break it down for me because if I walk into a Whatever. [00:29:10] Hilton hotel. Yeah. Yeah. Certain things will happen every time. Mhm. Yeah. [00:29:15] But the difference between a good hotel and a great hotel is the [00:29:20] other things. Right. Because certain things happen every time. Good. Great. Yeah. I’d [00:29:25] like to get into those. What are the what are the bits that are prescribed that happen every time. Yeah. But then the other [00:29:30] question is how do you how do you make people what do you what stories do you tell your [00:29:35] team regarding the other side, the softer side. Yeah. And when [00:29:40] you say training. Training. Training. Yeah. What’s that training focussed on? But I’ll answer the first one for me first. [00:29:45]

Kunal Thakker: So I guess, you know.

Payman Langroudi: What are the touch points that have to happen when a patient walks in? [00:29:50] Like is the receptionist has to get up and look in their eyes and shake their hand. Open the door. Do you go that far? [00:29:55]

Kunal Thakker: Yeah. We do. Absolutely we do. So not as far as opening the door, but certainly when the patient comes [00:30:00] in that we removed our phones from reception. There’s no phones on reception. Actually, [00:30:05] they all they all sit in South Africa now. Different story, but in South Africa. But the idea is, is that when you [00:30:10] come into our practice. Yeah. The receptionist is to greet you immediately within the first 15 seconds, [00:30:15] actually. Right. So you’re greeted, okay, we check you in, ask [00:30:20] you to take a seat, and then the receptionist. Will walk around and offer you your favourite beverage.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but before. Before [00:30:25] when you’re. Greeted. Yeah, yeah. Does she already know your name before you walk in. And so. So she [00:30:30] greets you with your name.

Kunal Thakker: So actually the receptionist in the morning will review the diary. Yeah. Um, but [00:30:35] the greeting is all scripted. So even if the patient comes in and actually, for some reason, [00:30:40] actually, they’ve come in 15 minutes early and you’re like, well, actually this patient is supposed to be in, right? Yeah. There [00:30:45] is a script there to welcome the patient. So the patient will normally tell us their name.

Payman Langroudi: Oh sorry sorry sorry sorry [00:30:50] sorry about that. Sorry guys. Give me a second. That that hasn’t happened for a while. That’s [00:30:55] right. Go on.

Kunal Thakker: So, um, so what will happen is the patient will come in and [00:31:00] we’ve got the script. So what we’re trying to do is we have a script, but we do allow the [00:31:05] it. We use a script as a guide because what we don’t want is robots either. Right. Yeah. So [00:31:10] it is. So it’s a time. So we set the time frame as to because there could be other things going on around you. [00:31:15] So we set the time frame as to when you need to greet the patient. The limit obviously if the reception [00:31:20] is empty you’d greet them straight away. But if there’s something going on, you’ve got the receptionist knows you’ve got 15 seconds. These are the [00:31:25] things that we’re training on.

Payman Langroudi: This is a new patient.

Kunal Thakker: Any patient that’s walking in the door, any new or existing.

Payman Langroudi: But then so let’s [00:31:30] say I’m coming to the practice once a month for four months. Am I hit with the same script?

Kunal Thakker: Yeah. You are. Well, [00:31:35] so this is where I say given a script, it’s used as a guide because the minute because you have to systemise, [00:31:40] but you’ve got this 10% of being human as well, right? So you’ve got a system, and I’m not going to say to you that every single [00:31:45] person is going to be using every the right word, every single time, but they’ve got a script that guides them. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So being [00:31:50] able to say, well, we’ve got the exact same situation with people answering the phone. Right. Do we say to them, exactly. [00:31:55] Say this, or do we say to them, make the person feel great and say whatever you want? No.

Kunal Thakker: That’s [00:32:00] the so what we’re saying is here’s your script. Yeah. Right. Okay. But don’t sound like a robot. [00:32:05] So in the training they will do, they’ll run through scenario based. We do a lot of our training. [00:32:10] Uh, it runs on customer service. It’s all about customer service. And a lot of that is role playing. So we’ll role [00:32:15] play the various different scenarios of a patient walking in. How do you greet them? Where do you take them? [00:32:20] Now we don’t use word for word accuracy, but what we do want to do is give the give them the tools [00:32:25] so that they’ve got a guide.

Payman Langroudi: Have you got banned words? Huh?

Kunal Thakker: Like keywords, like [00:32:30] keywords to use.

Payman Langroudi: Words that are not allowed to be used.

Kunal Thakker: Oh. Banned. Banned words. No, actually we don’t [00:32:35] we don’t have banned.

Payman Langroudi: I had a guy on here. He’s got 50 banned. Words are things like surgery. [00:32:40] Oh, yeah. Um, things like running late. Ah. He’s got other [00:32:45] words that they use instead of. I used to work in a practice. You weren’t allowed to say the word dentist. Oh, [00:32:50] wow. Yeah. This guy, he was like surgeon. Which surgeon do you see? Which [00:32:55] surgeon do you see? Great. Yeah, well, this guy, he said. Oh, no, I would never say that because surgeon implies [00:33:00] surgery. Right. So it depends on what you’re trying to run, right. Fantastic.

Kunal Thakker: Because you know. So actually. So [00:33:05] interview me in four weeks time and I’m gonna have a list of banned words. Now, that’s a great idea because, you know, [00:33:10] just anecdotally, like, you know, when we’re doing our for our treatment coordinators, another element we spend a lot invest [00:33:15] a lot of our time in for them as well. You know, we try and not use certain words [00:33:20] like, you know, for implants. It’s a screw. And they you know, they drill the screw. [00:33:25] You know, all of those kinds of terminologies. We spend a lot of time on saying, well, no, and actually what’s the right thing to [00:33:30] do? So we do more. We do.

Payman Langroudi: Have some banned.

Kunal Thakker: Words. Yeah. But almost like we’re actually [00:33:35] saying, well, these are the words you should be using as opposed. But I think having banned words list I think is really is. [00:33:40]

Payman Langroudi: Surgery the word surgery itself. Which surgery are they. It’s it’s.

Kunal Thakker: Incredibly.

Payman Langroudi: Invasive [00:33:45] treatment room or. Yeah.

Kunal Thakker: And you know and it’s so funny because so with our school we’re [00:33:50] doing a squat in Orpington at the moment. And we’re doing the Dawn labels on the door. And [00:33:55] you know, and we’ve always done we’ve always done surgery. Surgery one. Surgery surgery three. [00:34:00] And I haven’t actually gone to print because I can’t figure out what name I want for those those jaws. Um, [00:34:05] because I don’t want it to say surgery anymore.

Payman Langroudi: There’s so many studio ones.

Kunal Thakker: Yes, exactly. [00:34:10]

Payman Langroudi: People say treatment room. Yeah.

Kunal Thakker: Treatment room.

Payman Langroudi: Loads. Loads of different things I like.

Kunal Thakker: Treatment room. Yeah. [00:34:15] So? So. Yeah. And look, the whole thing as well. And I guess this, this conversation [00:34:20] says is we are not perfect and we are on a journey and we’re constantly looking at evaluating evolution. [00:34:25]

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Kunal Thakker: It’s an evolution for sure. It is. And the minute that you get complacent and say we’re doing everything perfectly, you [00:34:30] know, is the downfall. Um, and even when we design our clinics, my wife often says to me, when you [00:34:35] go to a Pizza Hut or Pizza Express, everyone’s literally the same. More or less, they’re all the same. And [00:34:40] I and Tooth Club isn’t. You go into our clinics, they are very different. And it’s because we are constantly [00:34:45] pushing the boundary and we learn the lessons from the last one. What worked in terms [00:34:50] of the patient flow? What didn’t work.

Payman Langroudi: And by the way, Pizza Express number 11 [00:34:55] might have been different to Pizza Express number three, but by the time they got to.

Kunal Thakker: I’ll bounce that back to her. [00:35:00]

Payman Langroudi: 400. They knew what they were doing and they were going to stick to this model. Maybe. Who knows? [00:35:05]

Kunal Thakker: Absolutely. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But. So. So let’s keep going. Let’s keep going. They’re greeted [00:35:10] at the door. Yeah, like I used to work in a practice where the boss was really into this idea of [00:35:15] you greet with their name before they say their name, because, you know, you know who’s coming in at 9:00. Yeah. You [00:35:20] say, Mr. Smith, welcome. Like this. All right. They sit down. You ask them [00:35:25] if they want a drink. Yeah. And? And she makes the drink. The same person.

Kunal Thakker: Yeah. [00:35:30] We have a beverage list. So when you come in, you know, you pass the menu over again. Systemised. So you’re not [00:35:35] relying on someone to say, do you want a tea or coffee? Uh, you know, here’s the list. Would you like a drink? [00:35:40] And then they’ll go off and make a drink. Bring the patient a drink in and bring it over.

Payman Langroudi: What’s on [00:35:45] the list?

Kunal Thakker: Is that so? Herbal teas, teas and coffees. Herbal drinks. And then? And then water tends [00:35:50] to be on the list.

Payman Langroudi: So, you know, I must have visited a good [00:35:55] thousand practices now, and I’m not on the road. I’m not. I’m not a guy. But, you know, we’ve been [00:36:00] 24 years doing this, right? Yeah. And what you said about the receptionist not [00:36:05] looking up, that happens a lot. Yeah. And I blame I blame [00:36:10] the the staff numbers on that some somehow. And you know, you’ve got you’ve [00:36:15] got the, the numbers in front of you. Obviously we can’t splash splash extra members of staff. But [00:36:20] for me you know as a disruptor. Yeah. You’ll you’ll, you’ll appreciate this. I find the number [00:36:25] of humans looking after the patients, I’d say, is [00:36:30] less than what I’d expect compared to other businesses where you walk into another business when you walk into a hotel.

Kunal Thakker: Right. [00:36:35] Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Humans everywhere there is restaurants.

Kunal Thakker: There’s the gym, for example, the gym reception [00:36:40] desk.

Payman Langroudi: So, so so that one. Yeah. But then interestingly, the coffee [00:36:45] I, I, you know, I’ve worked in practices where the practice [00:36:50] was brilliant, but the coffee was awful. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And vice versa. [00:36:55] Yeah. Yeah. And yet when they say, would you like if they say, would [00:37:00] you like a coffee? The moment I sip that coffee, if it’s great coffee, I start, I [00:37:05] start thinking all sorts of conclusions about this practice. Yeah. Things that are incorrect. [00:37:10] Even though I’ve, you know, I’ve been a dentist. I’ve worked in many practices. The coffee for me? Yeah. [00:37:15] Because I’m a whatever. Call me a coffee snob. Yeah. But it’s interesting. Like, where is [00:37:20] the patient going to draw their conclusions. Right. For you smell. You know, as soon as you walked in here, you said, [00:37:25] this smells funny. Like a lab. Yeah. Like, you know, um, often, [00:37:30] you know, like the the cobwebs, you know, that we miss on the ceilings, [00:37:35] you know, as you’re lying back.

Kunal Thakker: My thing is.

Payman Langroudi: Toilets. Toilets.

Kunal Thakker: My my thing is toilets. And, [00:37:40] you know, you you know. And in my practice, the one thing I can promise you in my practice is my toilets are immaculate [00:37:45] because I’m so they they, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Have you got speakers in the toilets? Yeah.

Kunal Thakker: I should do, shouldn’t [00:37:50] I? I should just clean toilets, I think. Tell you a lot about clean, nice facilities, [00:37:55] right? Tell you anything about any business, right? You have the nicest restaurants. And if the toilets are, um, [00:38:00] not good, or, you know, if a business is going down, typically it starts because the toilet, you know, you see the detriment [00:38:05] of the toilets. Um, so, yeah, it is, it is about the small stuff and it is about the small stuff on that, [00:38:10] on that, on that journey, whether it’s the coffee, the cobwebs or, uh, or the toilets. [00:38:15] So I do think you do need to take care in the, in the detail. And I think the challenge, you [00:38:20] know, and I’m going through this journey. Right. Yeah. It comes with the scale. Right. Yeah. You know, you [00:38:25] start compromising a little bit. Let’s continue.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve got. Let’s try and get perfection then as far as you’re concerned. Yeah. The [00:38:30] guy has his coffee. Yeah. What happens next? Sorry. What happens next?

Kunal Thakker: So? [00:38:35] So we don’t get. So we’re very hot on our patient waiting times. So there’s no waiting. So it’s short. It’s [00:38:40] short. Absolutely it is. So either the nurse or the treatment coordinator will take [00:38:45] the patient in to meet the meet the dentist or the treatment coordinator have the consultation. So [00:38:50] we have consultation rooms which are quite comfortable for patients to talk through. Do not insist.

Payman Langroudi: On the dentist coming [00:38:55] out.

Kunal Thakker: No. Dentist. Dentist brings them back out. Dentist exits. Right? Yeah. [00:39:00] Nurse. Nurse welcomes.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Yeah. Is there a reason for that?

Kunal Thakker: It’s just [00:39:05] part of our patient workflow. We found that actually, with the nurse coming in, people felt a little [00:39:10] bit less nervous going into into the space. I also found that our [00:39:15] nurses were better communicators. Uh, to break the ice, because when you just met someone in the waiting [00:39:20] room, it can be a bit awkward. Whereas a nurse was far more able to break the ice [00:39:25] than the dentist was. See?

Payman Langroudi: I disagree with.

Kunal Thakker: You.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. As a dentist, the [00:39:30] dentist for me, the journey from the number one going into the waiting [00:39:35] room and and saying Mr.. Whatever. Mr.. Whatever stands up the way you greet Mr.. [00:39:40] Smith. Yeah. Other patients see that you’re treating someone with respect. That [00:39:45] first touch on the shoulder that I’m looking after you and then walking all the way from the waiting [00:39:50] room to the surgery. Talking about how was your day? What’s going on? Because [00:39:55] sometimes, once the patients in the surgery the how is your day question? [00:40:00] You. There is an element of worry in your head that the patient is thinking, you know, why is he asking [00:40:05] me about my day? Why does he talk about my teeth? And it’s not that’s not the case that it’s incorrect. But there’s something in your head telling [00:40:10] you that. Yeah. So for me, walking from the waiting room to the surgery. And I’d [00:40:15] like that walk to be a little bit of a walk. Yeah. Yeah. If I was going to design [00:40:20] the dream practice for me. Yeah, I’d like that to be a good, you know, 92nd [00:40:25] walk that in that 90s. You’re talking about life and and [00:40:30] how are you and holidays and you’re starting something that sets the tone.

Payman Langroudi: Whereas [00:40:35] when I, when I used to have the nurse bring the patient in already, she [00:40:40] set a tone. Right. But I can’t 100% rely on but but also patient walks [00:40:45] in. Now I’m at the chair. He’s going to sit down. Once he sat down. It’s time. We’re now we’re talking side to side. [00:40:50] Yeah. You know, there’s no. Of course I. Let me give you one piece of advice, [00:40:55] dude. I mean, you know this, but more important than the [00:41:00] smell, the TV on the ceiling. Yeah. The smile on the receptionist. More [00:41:05] important than all of those things is painless injections. Yeah. Painless injections [00:41:10] are the most important thing that can happen in a dental practice. I’d say if I had a choice [00:41:15] between a guy who’d done a masters in prosthodontics at the Eastman [00:41:20] and a guy who hadn’t but knew exactly how to give completely painless injections, I’d [00:41:25] pick that that guy as a as a business builder. Yeah, yeah. Because because [00:41:30] give the injection and then. Okay, the ice then then talk for for ten minutes.

Kunal Thakker: Yeah. And [00:41:35] look, I have to disagree because I don’t come from a clinician point of view. Right. From a patient perspective, [00:41:40] it’s all about how you make me feel. Yeah. Right. I can have a painful injection in [00:41:45] anaesthetic or whatever. Right. Yeah. If you make me feel safe. And if you’ve made me feel. [00:41:50] It’s all about the feeling. It’s how someone made you feel. How was the experience? If I’ve had a nice experience [00:41:55] in the waiting room, I’ve had my drinks. Someone’s asked me about my holiday or, you know, and it’s also picking [00:42:00] up on the clues, the non the non-verbal clues. Because sometimes you get patients, they don’t want to talk. Yeah. You come [00:42:05] in. Yeah. In the like in the barbers I don’t want to talk. I don’t want to talk to you as fast as possible. [00:42:10] Yeah I want to be as fast as possible. Get me out of here. And so you have to adapt it to different patients. But it’s picking up [00:42:15] on those clues that someone is nervous. And so you kind of have some intro cues into it. And you have to judge [00:42:20] whether someone wants to talk or not. So you have to be very emotionally connected. But I do think that [00:42:25] for me, it’s about how people are made to feel, and we’re not. Every part of a patient journey is not going to be perfect. As you said, some [00:42:30] people are going to like the coffee, some people aren’t going to like the coffee, but it’s about how is that overall overarching experience? [00:42:35] Did I feel safe? Did I feel comfortable coming into this environment? And was I was I approached [00:42:40] with care. And I think that feeling, which is so intangible is what really makes [00:42:45] makes the difference. Um, and then giving people an amazing smile. You know, I think it’s important if you’re going to [00:42:50] give someone and they’re in absolute agony whilst sitting in your chair, never going to end well. Um, but I do think it’s [00:42:55] about the overall journey and the overall. So let’s talk.

Payman Langroudi: About the journey. Once they get into the treatment room, is there? What part of that [00:43:00] do you prescribe?

Kunal Thakker: So actually we. So this is where we do give the clinicians a freedom. So we do what [00:43:05] we’ve asked the clinicians to do. And what we’ve trained the clinicians to do is give people space to talk and [00:43:10] stop and listen. Right. So it’s about because there’s also [00:43:15] we had we had an example. So there was one situation where I said you should ask, so why are you here today. [00:43:20] And the patient and we had one example where the patient said, well, you should know why I’m here today. [00:43:25] You’ve got an appointment book. You should know why I’m here today. And actually, that wasn’t [00:43:30] the that wasn’t the right thing. So, you know, we kind of changed it up a bit and we said, actually, we’re [00:43:35] not going to script this for you, but what you’re going to do is you’re going to intro yourself to the patient and [00:43:40] then you’re going to you’re going to stop when the patient is talking, you’re going to stop and listen, and [00:43:45] then you’re going to repeat back and check what you’ve heard is correct. That’s the only part that we actually prescribe [00:43:50] in surgery for our clinical team. That’s it. That’s it. Nothing else. And [00:43:55] the exit, the exit, you walk the patient out to where the treatment coordinator. [00:44:00] And if they’re busy out to reception but nothing else.

Payman Langroudi: Not no, no. No photography. [00:44:05] No. Uh, not.

Kunal Thakker: At this stage standing. Not the. No, [00:44:10] no.

Payman Langroudi: So then. But then don’t you think, dude? Yeah. The the [00:44:15] the.

Kunal Thakker: Scanning and photography doesn’t impact a patient. It impacts you and your portfolio and your marketing. [00:44:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but the dental, the dental journey. [00:44:25] Right? Yeah. For I mean, I appreciate the peace [00:44:30] in the waiting room. I do appreciate the peace of the waiting room. Yeah. The you know, I’ve been some [00:44:35] bloody beautiful waiting rooms, but yeah, there are some waiting rooms that are just marvellous. Yeah, yeah, but they’re. [00:44:40]

Kunal Thakker: Not great either. I have to be honest with you. Waiting rooms are really because I’m quite passionate about this. When you’ve got a [00:44:45] super high end waiting room and and anyone listening to this podcast do not think my my waiting [00:44:50] rooms are super high end. They’re not. When you’ve got a really posh waiting room that [00:44:55] looks like it’s really expensive and high end. Yeah, people don’t find that accessible. People don’t [00:45:00] find it welcoming. It depends.

Payman Langroudi: It depends who your target audience is.

Kunal Thakker: Absolutely. But when you’re looking to scale a business [00:45:05] and you’re looking actually you do want a you know, for us it’s all about it’s a balance between volume and quality. [00:45:10] Right. Yeah. And that’s really important. So if you want volume and quality, but if you just want the super high end patients [00:45:15] right. Yeah. Look there’s some beautiful, beautiful clinics. But I’ve seen squats that have opened that have been unsuccessful. [00:45:20] And the reason why is because they look really expensive when you walk in. Right. Yeah. You [00:45:25] know, when you walk in and you’ve got like, I don’t know, Italian marble floors.

Payman Langroudi: How do you know that was the reason why they failed? [00:45:30] I mean, maybe, maybe, maybe they didn’t have like a financial know how. They [00:45:35] spent too much money on the marble, you know.

Kunal Thakker: You know.

Payman Langroudi: I guess there’s lots of different reasons.

Kunal Thakker: Why. Yeah. [00:45:40] There is. Absolutely. Absolutely there is. I get at least one social media message [00:45:45] a week of people asking me, saying I’ve set up a squat or I’ve got a practice that I bought that isn’t working. Can [00:45:50] you help me? And I will always help, by the way. Always. There’s never a time where I’ll turn down someone that asks for help. [00:45:55] Yeah, never too busy.

Payman Langroudi: Because you have to ask all those questions yourself.

Kunal Thakker: Yeah, exactly. But, you know. But [00:46:00] also, it’s a good deed, you know, and it’s about collaboration. You know, if you succeed and your practices in Manchester, [00:46:05] the last one was in Manchester, what impact is that going to have on my life? Nothing but positive because actually I have an ally [00:46:10] that’s in Manchester and someone one day, you know, I might need my teeth done my own dental practices and they’ll [00:46:15] help me out, you know, whatever it is, good karma. But, you know, so I get approached quite a lot and I [00:46:20] have a look at these things and, you know, people, you know, people are talking, oh, it takes three years to break even on [00:46:25] a squat practice. It takes us six months maximum, probably three months, six months. [00:46:30] And that’s not out of arrogance. That’s not out of anything. But there’s something in our model that works. And when I compare and [00:46:35] I can only look at what I know versus what other people are doing, and I look at these very where we’ve spent [00:46:40] so much money on expensive waiting rooms. And what you’ve done is you’ve built this [00:46:45] beautiful practice because you think it’s important to you, but you’ve not listened to your patient. What is important to your patient? [00:46:50] And you know, you want someone to come into your practice and make sure that they really [00:46:55] feel welcome.

Kunal Thakker: They feel it’s accessible, that they really like it. And I don’t mandate scanning. I’ve been told [00:47:00] loads of times, oh, you know, you scan every patient and then tell them they need whitening and tell them they need x, y, z or increase [00:47:05] your EBITDA. Like, no, it from what you’ve done is you’ve complicated [00:47:10] your patient journey. You’re right. Yeah. They’re now sitting in their chair for an extra ten minutes being scanned. And then they’re [00:47:15] being preached to no understand the patient. What is it they want? And if they need a scan, [00:47:20] absolutely. You talk to them about why they need a scan. But I really have tried to centralise this. And [00:47:25] I think, what’s the difference between you and I? And I love talking to you because I think you’ve challenged me today and that [00:47:30] I’m going to go back and take in my own business. But because you’re a clinician, [00:47:35] right? Yeah. I think innately there’s a you can get biased to the clinical side, [00:47:40] whereas my weakness is I’m not a clinician, but then I will go very patient centric.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, when I [00:47:45] say brilliant waiting rooms, I didn’t mean the furniture. Oh, did you not? I meant the whole the whole thing.

Kunal Thakker: The whole [00:47:50] thing. The whole.

Payman Langroudi: Thing. Um, my point is this my point is that the waiting room part [00:47:55] of it is about 20% of the treatment. The treatment part of it can be very, [00:48:00] very, very different depending on who the dentist is and what the dentist does. Yeah. [00:48:05] So what I’m saying is this experience that that maybe you think people are getting at Tooth [00:48:10] Club is completely different in one room compared to the room next door, let alone [00:48:15] in one practice compared to the practice. Based on what? That dentist’s protocols. [00:48:20] Yeah. And what’s this dentist. Now, obviously dentists don’t like being told what to do. Yeah, [00:48:25] I get that 100%. Get that. Yeah. But I was just interested in equally, I’m.

Kunal Thakker: Not qualified to tell a [00:48:30] dentist or.

Payman Langroudi: A clinical director. Right? Yes.

Kunal Thakker: We have. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So. But, you know, again, you hire [00:48:35] you? I hire on culture and values. I hire people that are, you know, ingrained [00:48:40] to do the right thing.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not even saying this is the right move, but I would have thought that someone like you [00:48:45] would have thought that it’s the right move to say, look, every patient gets a photo at the beginning or [00:48:50] whatever it is. Are there like that.

Kunal Thakker: Sort of thing? Yeah. No, because and because I don’t think it’s [00:48:55] the right I don’t think it’s the I don’t think it’s the right thing. And to even.

Payman Langroudi: Control that, to.

Kunal Thakker: That, to control that. [00:49:00] Because, you know, when you talk, you know, we have all the gadgets, we have the SLRs and things for people to do if they [00:49:05] if they want to do it. And, and there’s a certain there’s a certain way in which we still get the photos for our social media, etcetera. [00:49:10] Um, but it is about, you know, I need to give my dentist the space [00:49:15] to connect with the patient. And if I don’t do that, that’s the number one. Yeah. There’s a disservice [00:49:20] to the patient and to our patient journey. Um, and that’s where when I say 85%, [00:49:25] you know, why are we not at 100% right? You know, that’s my one of my biggest challenges is like, why are we not 100%? [00:49:30] And it comes down to people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it comes down to, you know, has the receptionist [00:49:35] had a barney with her husband at home before leaving or leaving for work? You [00:49:40] know, uh, is it that the dentist is stressed because they’ve had a complaint? Um, and [00:49:45] they need to reply back to their indemnity. All of these things do factor, do factor in. Um, but we, [00:49:50] you know, but I do want to give the dentist some space, particularly in, in surgery when they’re doing [00:49:55] their operating. Um, they need they need the space to do that the best that they [00:50:00] know how. Um, but the entire journey up until that they’re into their chair, they’re [00:50:05] going to make them feel good. And then the exit of when they come out is also going to be a really, really positive [00:50:10] and long lasting one. And then above this, you know, we you know, my clinical director works very closely [00:50:15] with all our dentists to make sure that the dentistry we’re doing is of exceptional standard so that we do have [00:50:20] that, well, smile. So when people do, if they’re having composite bonding done or their Invisalign treatment, that [00:50:25] they get that really nice smile at the end of it.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s let’s talk [00:50:30] about how you actually. What’s the org structure [00:50:35] like? The org chart. Org chart. How does it work. Is there a manager at each [00:50:40] site. Yeah. And are there area managers. How much is centralised.

Kunal Thakker: Yeah. Really [00:50:45] good question. All of that stuff. So our clinics have um because I’m not a dentist, I’m [00:50:50] actually more anxious about the clinical side, um, than you’d think. You know, I’ve, you [00:50:55] know, because I worry. About what, I don’t know. Yeah. Um, so each site has a practice manager [00:51:00] and also has a clinical lead. So we have a principal dentist in each in each [00:51:05] site. Um, and then.

Payman Langroudi: Is there a hierarchy between those two?

Kunal Thakker: Um, there’s [00:51:10] one.

Payman Langroudi: Above the other.

Kunal Thakker: No. Because what we try and do is there’s a real collaborative work style between the two. And, [00:51:15] uh, we, we do these leadership empowerment workshops where we bring them specifically [00:51:20] together and make them work together so that they’re working collaboratively. But essentially, [00:51:25] the practice manager will report into our ops director, and then the clinical lead will report [00:51:30] into our clinical director. So again, the culture of the business is to be about [00:51:35] fun, friendly, collaboratively. It’s a core part of our culture. So you don’t do that, but you do get [00:51:40] people coming at things at different sides from from different angles. And then that’s where, you know, the practice manager [00:51:45] will be, look, this is my stock budget, the clinical lead will we need this stuff, right. You know, you do you you [00:51:50] obviously get that and we help them work together on it and we help them find their way [00:51:55] to to it. And whether that’s if we increase the stock, the clinical.

Payman Langroudi: Leaders, just like the the lead associate. [00:52:00]

Kunal Thakker: Lead associate.

Payman Langroudi: You kind of pay him for that. Yes. So being a.

Kunal Thakker: Lead. Yeah. So we have a very clear pay [00:52:05] structure amongst our clinicians. Every clinician is paid the same. The clinical lead is paid an extra part percent, [00:52:10] an extra percentage, um a higher percentage, so that they can take that principal role [00:52:15] on. And they, they meet my clinical director every week. Um, and just on teams [00:52:20] have a, have a, have an hour on teams every week just to escalate any issues.

Payman Langroudi: Do they all meet together [00:52:25] or one at a time.

Kunal Thakker: And so they all meet together. And then Cepi, our clinical director will do one on ones as well. [00:52:30] And then they and then they can call us if there’s anything specific.

Payman Langroudi: Is your clinical director still clinical? [00:52:35]

Kunal Thakker: Yes. So she is. So she’s actually clinical four days at the moment. She’s clinical director one. And she’s now changing [00:52:40] to being clinical director two days a week and will be in surgery three days. So, um, yeah, because the [00:52:45] demands of the role are kind of kind of changing. Um, but the idea is we make the practices independent. They shouldn’t [00:52:50] need Cepi, they shouldn’t need our ops director. What are we not giving them? What tools are we not giving them to [00:52:55] be able to be self-sufficient and, you know, and if it’s an extra couple hundred pounds worth of stock, we’re not going to sweat the small [00:53:00] stuff. Give it to them, you know, make their life easy. Um, so but there is we’re a very close [00:53:05] because we’re still small. I still think we’re quite small at 12 practices. There’s still a small community of us. [00:53:10] And I want to keep that, that as long as I can keep that. So we’re really, really connected. Um, [00:53:15] and that’s how that works. So that’s the structure in practice. Um, outside of that. [00:53:20] So in the UK, I’ve made the decision that it’s going to be just my exec team that are here. So that [00:53:25] includes myself, my CFO include my COO, [00:53:30] and I’ve got a chief commercial officer as well that’s focussed purely on profitability [00:53:35] and setting up new sites.

Kunal Thakker: And then I’ve got our clinical director, and then I’ve got [00:53:40] someone that just runs a strategy and PR for me. So, and covers marketing. [00:53:45] So those are my six people in the UK. And then the rest of my head office are out in India. So I’ve [00:53:50] got an amazing support team. So compliance. So we’ve got four dentists that work [00:53:55] in India. They do all of our audits. They do all of the compliance checks, virtual compliance, walkthrough walkthroughs, [00:54:00] floor walks. Um, and then we’ve got a big finance team in India as well HR. [00:54:05] Everything is done predominantly in India. So and I think for [00:54:10] us from a cost based perspective, it’s made a lot of sense, but also talent. Um, we’ve got [00:54:15] a huge amount of talent out in India. Um, and a huge amount of loyalty, um, out [00:54:20] there that people that are worth investing in, in training because they’re in it for the long run, not just for the [00:54:25] a short, short phase. So that’s our team in India. And then all of our phones, our [00:54:30] debt collection and our outbound recalling of patients happens in South Africa.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, half our phones [00:54:35] are in South Africa. Are they? Whereabouts? The time zones. Right. Isn’t it? Yeah.

Kunal Thakker: It’s a great time zone.

Payman Langroudi: They work from home. [00:54:40]

Kunal Thakker: Okay. We ours are in Johannesburg, so we’ve got an office in Rivonia. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Tell me about the process [00:54:45] of finding all these people in India. Was that a painful process or was that relatively straightforward?

Kunal Thakker: So I actually [00:54:50] set up a big. I set up Goldman Sachs team in Bangalore in India. So which at the time [00:54:55] when I left it was about 300 people. I think it’s about 1000 people today. Um, so I [00:55:00] actually set up their offices out there.

Payman Langroudi: So were you out there the whole time?

Kunal Thakker: So. So I spent a lot of time out there early [00:55:05] on in my career and moving functions out there, so I kind of learned it. I knew the area really well. So when I [00:55:10] looked at my own business, I just found that the we got to a stage where I couldn’t afford [00:55:15] to have the infrastructure that I wanted my business to have and the practices to support, [00:55:20] to have, because also practice managers, we don’t want our practice managers stuck inside an office doing paperwork. So [00:55:25] we’re a support centre, so we need to say what we are focussed on is how do we get them out of the office doing [00:55:30] less admin, doing more patient walkthroughs, training, supervision, that kind of thing. So [00:55:35] um, so yeah, so we so I recruited originally I had them all working from home in India. Um, [00:55:40] traffic in Bangalore is a nightmare, but we’re just about to start putting an office in because we’ve just got to a scale [00:55:45] where we need to get some sort of hybrid working, going. Um, so it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Not like a, it’s not a third [00:55:50] party company that.

Kunal Thakker: We had the choice of outsourcing or having my own people. Uh, and I chose [00:55:55] to have my own people. And the reason why was culture. I wanted people that were aligned to our culture and our vision, [00:56:00] uh, and I wanted them part of the club. So we’re setting up Tooth Club India Private Limited at the moment. [00:56:05] Um, and they’re all going to become employees currently. They’re self-employed, but they’ll all become [00:56:10] employees of my company.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s very interesting, man. That’s very interesting. So [00:56:15] that that side. Is there someone over here looking. Is that you looking after that side? [00:56:20]

Kunal Thakker: So actually, um, so we’ve got an operations manager in India who is brilliant, who’s [00:56:25] actually running a lot of it for me now. But how many how many people in India. So we’ve got 26. [00:56:30]

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Kunal Thakker: 26 people in India. And Rebecca, who is my head of strategy, [00:56:35] um, kind of oversees it. But the idea with it is, is it’s with Rebecca [00:56:40] until we can, um, move it off and be fully independent. The idea is the India team [00:56:45] will be their own function. The manager out there, the ops manager out there is [00:56:50] going to run it, and he’s doing it already, to be honest. He’s great. Um, and he’s been an absolute [00:56:55] fantastic hire. Um, the reason we’ve still kept very close connectivity is because we’re moving more and more functions [00:57:00] out there. You know, we thought we were going to just have finance out there. Then marketing was doing an amazing [00:57:05] job out there. So we put a lot of all of our let’s say if you Instagram us, um, between 6 [00:57:10] a.m. and 10 p.m. at night, you’ll get a response within 15 minutes. So all of that is out there and they’re doing a [00:57:15] really, really good job. So we feel like we’ve kind of taken them from what we thought would just be basic functions to [00:57:20] quite complex functions. So so it’s kind of managed from a strategy perspective [00:57:25] here. But the idea is, is they will be self-sufficient. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then take me through [00:57:30] the process of two two key things really the setting up of a squat [00:57:35] practice. And just just from the nitty gritty, the building, do you have like a team that is doing [00:57:40] that the whole time? Yeah. Is that is it your own team? You know that part of it the finding the shop [00:57:45] that and then the other one. I mean you cannot do squat practices without a [00:57:50] brilliant marketing. Yeah. You know team right. Is that in-house or is [00:57:55] that outsourced fully in-house in-house.

Kunal Thakker: So let me take you through a squat journey and then I’ll talk to you a little bit about marketing. [00:58:00] So the squat journey. Um, so I will sign off on every site. Um, and I’ll tell you why. [00:58:05] Because we have a system and process in place for identifying our sites. But I sign [00:58:10] off on gut feel, um, unscientific, but it is, it’s, um, gut feel. [00:58:15] Um, and so I will always sign off on the site. So, um, my chief commercial [00:58:20] officer, Tracy, will be on site. She’ll go and look at lots of different locations, fill out the [00:58:25] the various elements of our kind of analysis that we do. And then I’ll go and see and say, yeah, this is [00:58:30] this is the site, this is the place we want to be. Um, based on a lot on on gut. Um, [00:58:35] so that does happen. Um, and in terms of locations and things, we want to make sure we’ve got [00:58:40] the operational scalability. I don’t want to just set up in the middle of Manchester and not have a operations team that can run [00:58:45] that. So we’re being really careful about locations and how we how we grow and how we manage [00:58:50] that growth. Um, but from a squat site, funding is really, really important. Um, you know, banks, [00:58:55] some banks will lend, but most banks won’t lend on a squat site. So it will either be out of our cash [00:59:00] flow or we’ll use secondary lenders. So half of it is. So typically a squat site costs [00:59:05] us about 300,000 350,000. That includes the cash flow you need for [00:59:10] the first three months once you’ve opened.

Payman Langroudi: That’s pretty good, right? For how many surgeries would that be? [00:59:15] So.

Kunal Thakker: So typically our sites are about 1500ft². Yeah. A unit [00:59:20] that normally gets us in about 5 or 6 surgeries. Good sized surgeries. Um, so [00:59:25] we will then, um, kit out three. But plumbed all of them will be ready plumbed. [00:59:30] So it’s just plug and play as you, as you grow. Um, we, uh, so [00:59:35] half of this, about 150,000 is spent on asset finance. Your computers, your stereo scanners, your [00:59:40] equipment, that kind of stuff. And then the other 150,000 is more on soft furnishing refurb costs. [00:59:45] Um, I’ve got to the stage now where I’m quite lucky. Pretty good, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: That’s pretty good going. Yeah, the [00:59:50] way they look. Yeah, that is pretty good going.

Kunal Thakker: They are. And I’ve got a good team, you know, and we don’t [00:59:55] go, you know, the way that I’ve done it again, because I’m not a clinician I won’t go for the super spec high high end chair. But [01:00:00] I will go for a good good mid-range chair. The reason being is the minute that you go for a cheap [01:00:05] China chair or something like that, it’s going to break. You’re going to have downtime impacts your patient journey. It’s a nightmare. [01:00:10] So we go, you know, so we go and we use reputable equipment. And I think I’ve been really lucky with my [01:00:15] squats because I’ve now formed a team around me who are incredible. It’s just plug and play. [01:00:20] Everyone knows their job. Um, so our equipment is all typically done by Clark Dental, [01:00:25] and they’ve actually trained my builder, who is a retail shop fitter, on how to build a dental practice. [01:00:30] Um, and because they’ve done it a couple of times, I mean, they don’t even need to supervise anymore, but they’ve got that close [01:00:35] relationship amongst themselves if there’s a problem in a particular site. They’re quite creative in how they’re going to do [01:00:40] it. It’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Same builder every.

Kunal Thakker: Time, same build every time, same same equipment company every single time, same [01:00:45] IT company that are going to do all the the, the IT install um the cabling, same [01:00:50] cabling guy that’s going to run all the cables. Same fire guy that’s going to do all the fire alarms. Same building controller that’s [01:00:55] going to sign it off. And um, and they’ve just found their way of working. So that’s allowed us to scale. So typically [01:01:00] for the minute I get the keys to the minute that I open is about 14 weeks. Wow. [01:01:05] Yeah. Ideally 12. Um, it’s 14 because the CQC, uh, get a [01:01:10] slightly.

Payman Langroudi: Sick.

Kunal Thakker: Man. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That is quick. Yeah.

Kunal Thakker: And it’s literally from floor [01:01:15] plans, from the minute that the lease is being negotiated with all the floor plans are agreed, all the timelines are [01:01:20] agreed, costs, quotes, everything is done. And you just you just go. You must have looked.

Payman Langroudi: At your [01:01:25] KPIs, right? And seen like, where are the patients coming from? Yeah. And and [01:01:30] I know you said, you know, I know it’s almost one of the sort of cornerstones of the brand is High Street. Yeah. [01:01:35] But is there any scope for if your marketing is good for having [01:01:40] an off high street? I mean, I’m seeing it happen more with these sort of blank canvas. [01:01:45] Yeah. Uh, dental practices. Yeah. You know, it’s just it’s like a warehouse. [01:01:50] Yeah. And. But inside, you can do whatever you like. Right.

Kunal Thakker: There’s a big, well-known one in Liverpool, [01:01:55] which I think has done very, very, very well. Um, you know, it doesn’t it’s not [01:02:00] it’s not stay true to our model because what I felt is because what we’re trying to do with our marketing [01:02:05] spend is. So you ramp up the marketing when you’re about to open, and you keep that going for about [01:02:10] the first six months. The idea is after six months is to for that marketing spend to go down and. [01:02:15] Do you think.

Payman Langroudi: Visibility is important?

Kunal Thakker: Visibility is important. Word of mouth is important. Being accessible [01:02:20] is really, really important. So look, I mean this this one that I’m talking about in Liverpool I think is a hugely successful [01:02:25] model. So they’ve obviously it’s very accessible by the way.

Payman Langroudi: There’s loads of massive car parks.

Kunal Thakker: Car park. You know it’s [01:02:30] great. Whereas what I find in ours is we’re able to reduce the marketing spend because you’ve still got the footfall, [01:02:35] presence, you’ve got the word of mouth happening. And don’t get me wrong, we’re still doing the SEO and the Google ads and, um, [01:02:40] the Facebook social media stuff, but we’re doing it on a smaller scale than we are in the first six months. [01:02:45] Um, and, and that serves us, serves us really well. I also feel like I want our dental practices [01:02:50] to be really part of the community. Yeah. So when people are going out for their coffee or they’re walking their dog, [01:02:55] you know, they can pop in and book their dental appointment. So being part of the community and that community feel part of it in dentistry [01:03:00] is really, really important. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And of the squats that you’ve done, have you have you had any of them [01:03:05] go from 3 to 6 surgeries?

Kunal Thakker: Yeah. Yeah. I mean I’ve got one in Ipswich, which [01:03:10] has gone from three surgeries to nine surgeries. Wow. Yeah. The original. [01:03:15]

Payman Langroudi: One. The first one.

Kunal Thakker: The first one is nine. And honestly, you know, we’re open seven days a week there. [01:03:20] We do three late nights, 8 to 8. Huh? I know. Three.

Payman Langroudi: Three times. Yeah.

Kunal Thakker: Three times a week. They’re open [01:03:25] 8 to 8. Yeah. Um, and then, you know, we’re open Saturday. Sunday. And, you [01:03:30] know, we are about to put in surgery ten and 11 in there. So [01:03:35] there is a. Wow. Yeah. So it’s, um, you know, so it’s a it’s a big one. It’s a, it’s a, it’s [01:03:40] a big beast. But it comes with it’s again, it comes with its challenges as well. Because you know I feel [01:03:45] for the practice manager there. She’s brilliant right. She’s absolutely brilliant. But the number of people that are walking in and out of that practice [01:03:50] every single day is, is massive. Not just just the general footfall of the staff, but when you’ve got [01:03:55] a practice where you’ve got almost 30, 40 people working there, it has its own own challenges and operating [01:04:00] challenges and recruitment. So yeah. So yeah we do.

Payman Langroudi: How did the first one end up being in Ipswich? [01:04:05]

Kunal Thakker: Do you know? Potluck. If I’m honest there was no science behind it. If I’m being really honest. Right. Yeah. [01:04:10] Um, actually, I was, um. I just sold my last group. I was looking, um, [01:04:15] as to where to go. Um, someone had approached me saying, oh, I’ve got an NHS contract. Do you want to buy [01:04:20] it? Um, and most of us are private, by the way. I’ve only got two in my group NHS. This is one of [01:04:25] them. And I said, yeah, and I kind of got the NHS costs an NHS contract at a bargain price. [01:04:30] Um, and then Covid hit, but construction was open, so we kept on building, um, you [01:04:35] know, and as soon as the lockdown was over, dental practices could open. So we actually opened [01:04:40] the opened the practice. Um, so that’s how, uh, Ipswich [01:04:45] happened. It really was I think, you know, there is I say luck. There’s. Are you a London.

Payman Langroudi: Based at the time?

Kunal Thakker: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:04:50] I didn’t feel it was a trek. It’s a long way away.

Kunal Thakker: It was a trek. It was a trek. But, you know, again, I’d done the analysis. [01:04:55] It got a gut feel. You know, there was a shortage of dentistry. People were people were not good at recruitment.

Payman Langroudi: Because [01:05:00] it’s a trick.

Kunal Thakker: Yeah, because it’s a trek. Exactly who? You know who. What? You know what? Dentist wants to graduate and [01:05:05] go to Suffolk in a retirement town and work. Um, but but there’s also a lot of money there. [01:05:10] The demographics, the retirement town, because Ipswich is kind of seen as kind of being quite chavvy, but [01:05:15] actually there’s a huge retirement town and people that are really affluent that want to live there. Um, [01:05:20] so I saw an opportunity. I really did see an opportunity. And I saw the struggle. There was recruitment, and [01:05:25] I felt like I’ve never struggled with recruitment. Never really struggled with recruitment. So why is it so hard? I think I could recruit [01:05:30] here. I just need to to make it, to make it right. So what I did is I got a house in Ipswich [01:05:35] and I used to house dentists there. So even if you lived in London, you could come and live in my house [01:05:40] in Ipswich for 3 or 4 days and, and do it. And what ended up [01:05:45] happening is I housed these dentists and they’d set up their life in Ipswich. So one got [01:05:50] engaged, had a child, child went to school, end up staying, you know. Right. Yeah. The child’s just gone to school. [01:05:55] So it has ended up staying there and set up their life in in Ipswich. And that’s. And then we don’t even know we don’t [01:06:00] have this house anymore. But you know, we will provide temporary accommodation to people if they want it.

Kunal Thakker: Um, but that [01:06:05] meant that that it worked. And what we tried and I think early in the days, I can’t really it’s [01:06:10] harder now trying to do this. But in the early days, you know, we spent a lot of time with our dentists. So, you know, if they were [01:06:15] relocating, we’d help them find the house. We’d help them settle in. Um, also, partners are really [01:06:20] important, as you probably all know, right? Yeah. You know, if the wife’s not happy, there’s no way I’m happy. So, you know, making sure [01:06:25] that the partners were happy. So that’s how how how Ipswich happened. And we just set up our squad in January. In [01:06:30] January, our second one in Suffolk, in Bury St Edmunds. Hugely hugely [01:06:35] successful. And I’d go to say it’s going to be our most successful squat we’ve ever done. Um, it’s that busy. [01:06:40] Um, and it’s just and but now we’ve got the conviction and we can tell the story like, I’m happy [01:06:45] to pay a dentist a salary, right? Yeah. Fixed salary. Go there and work. Because I know [01:06:50] we’ve got proof in the in the pudding. But typically dentists see that there’s such a good earning potential in some of these [01:06:55] outskirts area areas such as Ipswich and Suffolk. And they’re only an hour or an hour and ten minutes out [01:07:00] on the train. And it’s not like it’s Devon or Cumbria or somewhere that’s going to take him five hours to travel to. [01:07:05]

Kunal Thakker: So that’s the so that’s the side. That’s the side. So then the squat. So back to the squat journey. [01:07:10] Um so yeah. So once we’ve got so once we’ve got the side, we’ve really got a good team that will go [01:07:15] in and build the plans. The architecture plans are really important. That patient journey experience is really important. [01:07:20] Um, the design element as well. I’ve got someone that works with me on knows what I like. Um, and, [01:07:25] you know, we’re always looking to up the design element to make it more Instagrammable, make the next practice [01:07:30] even better than the last. So there’s, there’s, there’s that that goes on. Um, and then kind of, you [01:07:35] know, 2 or 3 weeks before all the Google adverts have gone live, um, you know, our shop [01:07:40] fronts because they’re highly visible. Uh, as soon as we start building, we put these horrible bright pink [01:07:45] posters illuminous pink, but it stops and makes people look got QR codes. [01:07:50] So we typically I mean, we started booking in Orpington, which is opening in a couple of weeks. Um, you know Orpington, [01:07:55] their first patient was booked in about two months ago. So, you know, we started booking very, [01:08:00] very early on in terms of patience. But then we really ramp up in the last 2 or 3 weeks in terms of [01:08:05] what’s the what’s.

Payman Langroudi: The what’s the message that’s on that pink poster. Is it like something different? Like what? Do you [01:08:10] know.

Kunal Thakker: All.

Payman Langroudi: The QR code. What does it take? Is it just a form fill?

Kunal Thakker: So no, it literally takes you through the [01:08:15] Dental bookings page. Right? Online booking. Book your appointment. Um, it also gives you an option of WhatsApp [01:08:20] if you want to contact us and have a real live conversation with us. Or you can call us. So. But the [01:08:25] posters are bold and ugly. It’s literally calling out all the different treatments we do. Um, you know [01:08:30] our plan. Um, we love our plan. Join the club. Um, and, you know, the [01:08:35] subscription model. We really, really believe we’ve got a big plan patient in our practices. And that’s a real [01:08:40] core part of our bit. But we keep our plan relatively low. It’s 13.95 [01:08:45] a month, two Check-ups, two Hygiene’s a year. And that seems to provide people [01:08:50] accessibility into into dentistry. Now do we make a huge margin on that. No we don’t, but [01:08:55] what it does, it brings loyal patients into our practices. And when they need treatment, We believe [01:09:00] that’s where we’ll make the margin. Uh, margin. Or if they’ve got a toothache, that’s when I think it will be profitable. So [01:09:05] the plan is a big part of that. But it’s not. It’s just it’s making people stop and look. Oh, there’s a dental practice. [01:09:10] Oh, I’ve not been to the dentist in a while. Let me check this out. And then, because it looks fancy, um, you [01:09:15] know, people want to kind of be part of it. People want to go into somewhere where they feel good. Um, so people try us out. [01:09:20] And that’s why it’s really important for us, is we we recruit the staff early on. We train them [01:09:25] because you’ve only got one chance to make a good impression. And in these communities, [01:09:30] because I said we want it to be about the community. People talk. People talk on little Facebook groups. You know.

Payman Langroudi: News [01:09:35] travels faster than it does.

Kunal Thakker: Good and bad, good and bad. Absolutely. So it’s really [01:09:40] important that we do that early on.

Payman Langroudi: And do you recruit specifically, um, the team [01:09:45] for those squads? Do you on purpose go outside of dentistry or do you stay in dentistry?

Kunal Thakker: So [01:09:50] we’ve actually got a team of our own people that we’ll put that will go and do the first couple of weeks in a squad practice [01:09:55] to help us get open and get people trained up on the job around the service levels. But [01:10:00] when we’re recruiting, typically our treatment coordinators are non Dental. They do not [01:10:05] come from a Dental background. They tend to come from hospitality, retail, very people [01:10:10] orientated type type professions. Our nurses are tend to be Dental [01:10:15] Dental nurses from other practices. Yeah. Other practices that have moved on. So, so [01:10:20] uh, and then dentists and dentist. But the reception teams uh treatment coordinator typically non dental [01:10:25] backgrounds practice manager. Uh Dental. Ideally ideally dental. Yes. Yeah. [01:10:30] Because you do need that supervision of non dental staff to have a dental background. And it works [01:10:35] really well because if you’ve got treatment coordinator that has got the sales hospitality people type experience, [01:10:40] but then they’ve got a dental experience person kind of drumming the healthcare drum. [01:10:45] I think it’s a really nice balance to have. Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:10:50] you know, you’re running it pretty professionally right. It’s to, [01:10:55] to get to this scale in this time. From a non dentist point of view [01:11:00] it’s quite quite you’re doing it professional job. I’m sure you’re looking at the certain KPIs you look at. And I’ve [01:11:05] always in my business got a big problem with too many. Yeah. Yeah. Like I’ve [01:11:10] got one number I’m interested in and it’s for me it’s a specific number. [01:11:15] It’s it’s the number of enlightened treatments done per dentist per week. Right. [01:11:20] It’s not it’s not the overall number. It’s the is it. Is each dentist doing more today than he was doing [01:11:25] yesterday? And for me that’s really important. Yeah. Thing. Um, firstly, [01:11:30] have you got KPIs? That is the key one different. Is it unexpected? [01:11:35] And the second thing is, you know, much of what you’re talking about is experience. Yeah. And experience [01:11:40] one of those things you can’t really measure very well. Yeah I guess reviews or. Yeah.

Kunal Thakker: Well [01:11:45] it’s a it’s an interesting it’s a KPI. Yeah. We are we’re a hugely commercial [01:11:50] business and I take. No, um, I make no apology for it. Even my culture and values. Because [01:11:55] there’s no big bank of Mummy and Daddy sitting behind here. There’s no private equity sitting here. You know, if we don’t, [01:12:00] you know, if we don’t bring the cash in, I have wages to pay. And it’s ultimately going to going to lead. We [01:12:05] do everything ethically. Fundamentally, it’s all about being ethical and the way you do it. You don’t sell any sort of dental treatment [01:12:10] you wouldn’t do to your own mum and dad and that crude about it. But our KPIs are really important. [01:12:15] And look, we’ve got five real key KPIs. I don’t think they’re anything, um, that will set the world apart [01:12:20] from what everyone else is doing in dentistry. I think what we’ve done is we’ve simplified those five, but no [01:12:25] one has more than one. So and that’s so similar to how you say you’ve got the one. So for our treatment [01:12:30] coordinator, for example, is how much cash they’re bringing in. Very simple okay. Yeah. For our [01:12:35] practice managers it’s all about turnover. How much work not. And that’s different [01:12:40] to cash by the way. Cash is someone coming in paying for their Invisalign treatments. I’ve got the money in the bank. Um, for [01:12:45] the for the practice manager is getting that work done because then it gets moved into your PNL. So [01:12:50] that’s that’s it for that. And then for my CFO it’s about EBITDA. So cost reduction, [01:12:55] that kind of thing. So, um, you know, for our reception team, it’s all about planned subscriptions. How many planned patients [01:13:00] have you have you converted over. So those are the kinds of things that we’re working on. But the key [01:13:05] and I think what you said is absolutely right. You can’t deal with 50 million KPIs. Yeah. The one KPI that’s [01:13:10] important to you, I think you can really focus.

Payman Langroudi: On, but the one that’s important to you is experience. Right? It’s difficult [01:13:15] to measure that isn’t it. Yeah.

Kunal Thakker: And so coming to experience. So this is one we’re really, really focusing on right now. Um and [01:13:20] the patient experience. Because when you go on things like Trustpilot uh, Google reviews, you know, you’re not always [01:13:25] you’re either going to get two extremes, you’re going to get the patient that’s got really upset and hasn’t had an opportunity to vent their frustration [01:13:30] in practice. Right. Okay. Or you’ve got the, um, you’ve [01:13:35] got the ones where you’ve said, oh, please leave me a Google review. Right? Yeah. Naturally they’re going [01:13:40] to sit in the chair. They’re going to give you a five star whilst they sat there in the chair giving you a five star. So that doesn’t give me a real perspective [01:13:45] on the.

Payman Langroudi: Overall going.

Kunal Thakker: On what’s actually going on. So you know, so we’re looking at ways [01:13:50] in which of how we change. How we change this and really analyse experience. Now [01:13:55] one of the things that concepts that I’m looking at and this is still very fresh actually my management team don’t even know, [01:14:00] know about this completely. But um, you know, when you go into a toilet and then you get that, that little screen that says, [01:14:05] how was your experience today? You got you got red and the green experience. All you do is press it. [01:14:10] I want to put something like that in, and I’m looking at different options around that, because how do I get [01:14:15] more detail. Because I might get 50 greens and get five five reds or vice versa. [01:14:20] How do I, uh, look into that detail? So we’re really looking at this right now. Um, because from an online [01:14:25] presence perspective, we’re constantly focussed on Trustpilot, Google. But I don’t think that’s telling me really the [01:14:30] experience going on in my clinic. So more to come, but it’s something I’m certainly focussed on.

Payman Langroudi: I think, you know, [01:14:35] word of mouth referrals. Is that really important one? Yeah, really, really, really [01:14:40] important one. Because you know, if that’s going up all the time, that’s that’s just, you know, there’s [01:14:45] something that’s happening in a practice isn’t it.

Kunal Thakker: Yeah it is. And but you know again it’s it’s it’s [01:14:50] really challenging to measure these stuff. And I never want to make excuses for these things because, you know, when we’re doing our marketing and [01:14:55] looking at our ROI on marketing and, you know, we’re asking every single patient, how did you hear from us? How [01:15:00] did you hear about us? Why did you book in? And, you know, um, you know, people aren’t always open [01:15:05] to saying it’s not always accurate.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not.

Kunal Thakker: Always accurate. And that’s my that’s my doubt with it. But look, it’s an important stat. [01:15:10] It’s one we measure. Word of mouth marketing. Um, on our, uh, actually after this I [01:15:15] got my return on investment meeting. But, you know, so for marketing, I think we do we certainly we certainly do [01:15:20] do look at that. And I think it’s a good it’s a good sign. And then you talked about marketing was your other question. You know I [01:15:25] focus on marketing. We’re hugely focussed on on marketing. It’s a big part of our business. [01:15:30] Uh, big marketing spend that we spend every single year. Um, and we, we try to we try to [01:15:35] measure it. Our marketing style is very different to, to other, other groups. Uh, of course [01:15:40] everyone’s doing SEO, Google ads and social media. But if you look at our content and things that we’re doing, [01:15:45] it’s all about being authentic. Um, there’s a certain amount where we get beautiful cameras and just [01:15:50] bought a GoPro and get nice kind of polished footage, and that looks like a brochure. But often [01:15:55] what our what our content is, is about making it really authentic. So iPhone, Android [01:16:00] phone, you know, taking that moment, that smile reveal all of that kind of stuff, I think not.

Kunal Thakker: I think [01:16:05] I know when I look at the engagement stats and the impressions that I look at, um, uh, [01:16:10] you know, the authentic content does far superior to the GoPro and the polished [01:16:15] content that we have done. Um, and I think there’s a balance that you do need the polished content to, you know, give [01:16:20] the professionalism of your brand. But a lot of what works for us is our authentic, our authentic [01:16:25] content. We work a lot with influencers, uh, love him or hate him. And I see a lot on social [01:16:30] media saying I’d never do an influencer or, um, you know, one of these Love [01:16:35] Islanders. You know, we do the entire Love Islanders, we do all of the, um, Towie [01:16:40] cast. Um, and they’ve been hugely, hugely impactful to our bottom line. [01:16:45] Um, and, you know, we’re selective about which influencers we work on. We have very tight agreements with those influencers. [01:16:50] Um, but you know, where others will turn them away. We won’t turn them away. And we’ll take a [01:16:55] punt and we’ll do a free case and and see what we get off the back of it. And more times than not, it’s worked in our favour. [01:17:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Influence is a funny one, man. Because you gotta, you gotta. It’s one of those things where you’ve got to think [01:17:05] there will be cases where it’s not going to work for you as part of the process. Of course, as [01:17:10] a dentist, sometimes you feel like, oh, I did it, and I got nothing out of that one. And you [01:17:15] just can’t believe that, right? Yeah. Um, we work with influencers quite a lot. What I found is it’s difficult [01:17:20] to get authenticity out of them. Yeah, that’s that’s my worry. Although, although when you look at your own [01:17:25] behaviour. Yeah, yeah. Like if Joe Rogan says on a podcast, anything [01:17:30] is great. I’ll go and buy that thing. Yeah, I really will. Yeah, yeah. And I think I’m immune [01:17:35] to influencers and things but but you know, I’ve done it. I’ve bought I’ve bought some sleep [01:17:40] I know sleep tablet because he said it was good. And who the hell is Joe Rogan? [01:17:45] He’s not an expert in sleep. So when you look at yourself, [01:17:50] yeah, you know, some people say, I’m not. I don’t get affected by branding. Yeah, yeah. But then there’s [01:17:55] a brand that affects them, too, man. You know, the no brand brand. This this, this.

Kunal Thakker: Huge, [01:18:00] you know, there’s huge people, you know, look, I think, you know, Stacey Solomon’s one of our patients. Yeah. Um, and [01:18:05] by the way, she’s not an influencer. She will not, uh, she will not allow us to give her free treatment. I’ve [01:18:10] tried. Um, she’s actually promoted us, but she’s done it off her own back. Um, because, you [01:18:15] know, we’ve delivered the service level that she wants us to do. Now, she’s a great one. And, you know, but she’s a huge influencer. [01:18:20] You know, I, you know, when she put us, she tagged us into her story. You know, I saw [01:18:25] our following go up. I saw her inquiries explode and our bookings explode. So there is. So [01:18:30] you have to pick the right people. You have to have the right engagement with them in terms of what you want out of them. The authenticity [01:18:35] is really important. I agree. You know, you don’t want someone saying, oh, I got this whitening system. Um, [01:18:40] and it was really great. Um, but, you know, but if you can do it in the right way and you can work.

Payman Langroudi: From [01:18:45] the squat perspective, this building is on its way. This this building is being built. Sorry. Yeah. No. And people [01:18:50] are hitting the QR code and some people are booking in. Yes. How early is the marketing starting [01:18:55] for this site?

Kunal Thakker: About 3 or 4 weeks earlier.

Payman Langroudi: We’re starting before opening.

Kunal Thakker: Before opening.

Payman Langroudi: So you’ve got [01:19:00] some Google ads going out?

Kunal Thakker: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And people are leads are coming in. Yeah.

Kunal Thakker: We’ve got leafleting [01:19:05] happening in the area. Oh, really? Yeah. We’ve got a guy. We’ve got a guy that does all of our leafleting because I still believe [01:19:10] in leafleting. I don’t think it changes the world, but I think there’s a there’s a place for leafleting. Um, so [01:19:15] leafleting is really important. And then we open the front. The front is open two weeks prior to the official opening, [01:19:20] so we can take bookings. People will come in and say, oh, that’s good. Can I find out a little bit about you? Yeah, and we’re a noisy bunch. [01:19:25] Um, so, you know, I said about disrupting, you know, we’ll get the DJ and we’ll go and stand outside the practice and get [01:19:30] the music going. Leafleting. Get the ice poles in if it’s a hot day or the non-alcoholic [01:19:35] gin and tonics, those kinds of things will do because they’ll stop. When you give someone a non-alcoholic gin [01:19:40] and tonic. They’ll stop and have a chat with you and you can build rapport with them.

Payman Langroudi: And you literally [01:19:45] doing that at every opening, like every single one month before that. Yeah, there’s a playbook for that.

Kunal Thakker: The style [01:19:50] changes, right? You know, if it’s in the middle of winter, we’re not going to do gin and tonic. Of course, we’ll do sugar free hot chocolate, for example. But [01:19:55] yeah, there will always be something that’s on the on site presence. Um, you know, we’ve done [01:20:00] where we’ve got some of our influencers to come in and do a ribbon cutting exercise and go live on their Instagram. So [01:20:05] especially for TikTok. Sorry for the Essex practices. Um, you know, we bought the Towie lot in and [01:20:10] got them to the opening. Phenomenal.

Payman Langroudi: So the door’s open now. Yeah. How many dentists have you hired? Three already. [01:20:15]

Kunal Thakker: So for the first two weeks. Oh. So Dental. So typically what we’re doing is we’re hiring two dentists in. [01:20:20] Um, and a hygienist in. And the idea is, is the first two weeks [01:20:25] there will be no dentist, because that’s our time to get the diary full. Yeah. Yeah. Whenever I bring a dentist [01:20:30] in, I always say it’s six weeks to get your diary full. I can normally do it within a couple of weeks. So. But, [01:20:35] um, the idea is, is the first two weeks there’s no dentist. It’s just the tko’s booking, [01:20:40] doing consultations. And then and then they go and get booked in with the dentist. So when the dentist [01:20:45] starts, typically their diary is about 50 to 70% full. Wow. [01:20:50] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s superb.

Kunal Thakker: And what I also do normally what happens with my practices is when I’m setting [01:20:55] up a practice, there’ll be a dentist in my group say, oh, you’re opening in Orpington, can I come and work there? [01:21:00] So I was like, yeah, of course you can. So and they’ve already got the trust in us. So they know actually if [01:21:05] I say six weeks I’m going to deliver it. And it does come down to trust. You have to, you know, that the [01:21:10] pressure is on. Um, because what I also find is that the opening time, the first three [01:21:15] months, is the make or break. You’re either going to get busy. You’re either going to make [01:21:20] it a success or you’re not. So you can’t take your foot off for the first three months on not [01:21:25] only service standards, but also your desire around booking. So, you know, we were talking about KPIs earlier. [01:21:30] Uh, our KPIs are all linked to a bonus that they get that same month. They don’t [01:21:35] wait six months to get a bonus. Right. Yeah. Or a year to get a bonus. They get the bonus the following [01:21:40] payroll cycle. So. And that’s when the tcos to the reception team to the board. [01:21:45] Exec board. Everyone has got a a bonus thing. So everyone is part of the journey. [01:21:50] They’re bought into the vision. And you know, because there’s this other thing that this concept, oh, you’re earning all the money, right? [01:21:55] Yeah. Anyone that owns a dental practice knows you’re not earning all the money, but that’s a perception. So I have to accept that as [01:22:00] reality. Um, so. Okay, I’m earning money. You’re coming on this journey. I’m going to make sure you earn money. So every [01:22:05] plan you sign up, you’re going to get bonus. Every every implant patient Invisalign patient, composite bonding [01:22:10] patient. You get a bonus every new patient booking. You’re going to get a bonus when you say bonus.

Payman Langroudi: Is it money? [01:22:15] What is it? It’s money. Cash.

Kunal Thakker: It’s cash. But it’s all gone through tax by the way. But it’s a bonus. [01:22:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So look we we incentivise our team as well. Yeah. But the one thing I found is.

[PRODUCTION]: Five [01:22:25] minutes to wrap up.

Payman Langroudi: Oh yeah.

Kunal Thakker: There we go. [01:22:30]

Payman Langroudi: The one thing I found is sometimes you get when you incentivise your team, sometimes you get [01:22:35] a unintended consequence. I agree. Yeah. So? So for instance, the people who answered [01:22:40] the phones. Yeah. They’re incentivised on sales. Yeah. But but then, [01:22:45] then because they’re incentivised on sales. Yeah. Um. Or they were [01:22:50] only incentivised on sales. They were only focusing on our big users. Yeah. And so the amount of work [01:22:55] it took to get a new user to come on and a new user. Normally you can’t see a big amount of [01:23:00] money in front of your face. Yeah. And someone needs to go. And they weren’t focusing on getting new users. Yeah. [01:23:05] So have you had any of those situations? Yeah we.

Kunal Thakker: Do. And I think it’s you know, selling in dentistry is a real taboo word. [01:23:10] And people see it as a really negative thing. So, you know, going back to the fact that actually you don’t sell something [01:23:15] to your own mum and dad. Yeah. Um, you know, so the way that we’ve kind of controlled, controlled [01:23:20] that. So we look at refund levels because the minute they’ve been to a TCO, the TCO sold the treatment. They [01:23:25] go and see the dentist, the dentist are ethical. They know what can and can’t be done. They’re not going to take excessive [01:23:30] risk on a patient or do anything that’s not clinically right. So we monitor refund levels where [01:23:35] the treatment plan has been rejected because they shouldn’t have been sold it. So we look at that and then we retrain [01:23:40] and people know we’re watching, people know we’re watching. So that kind of disincentivizes that. But the other part of your question [01:23:45] was really about how do people think about the long term. They’re not just thinking about the quick sale. And for us, the long game in [01:23:50] dentistry for us is is the plan, right? We want that patient to join the plan. So if you come [01:23:55] in for a Invisalign treatment with us and we’ve got a promotion on, say, £500 off, that’s [01:24:00] fine. We’ll give you the £500 and genuinely we’ll give you that £500 off. But we only give you that £500 off if you join [01:24:05] the plan.

Kunal Thakker: So that is what gives us that long term patient. And that’s how I’ve managed to build up the plan. [01:24:10] Being honest with you is staying true to that. So sometimes those patients say, well, I don’t like subscriptions. I don’t want to do that. [01:24:15] Okay, fine, pay full price for Invisalign then. And the way that you and the way that we talk to [01:24:20] our patients about it is because once you spend three and a half grand on your Invisalign, you need to look after it. [01:24:25] You know, you need to come back every six months, make sure that you’ve not got any relapse. And there is a real ethical [01:24:30] side of being having a patient that is on the subscription side. So getting them to believe into that, selling that. And [01:24:35] actually if they get the patient to sign up to the plan, they get the plan bonus as well. So there’s a there’s an increase. [01:24:40] So that’s how we get them to play the long game. Um, but I do worry I always worry about [01:24:45] people overselling or selling the wrong thing. You know. You know you won’t want you won’t won’t [01:24:50] want a TCO selling veneers to a patient that’s got beautiful teeth, right. Of course, you know, and healthy teeth. [01:24:55] So all of that kind of stuff it must come up though right?

Payman Langroudi: That that issue is an issue.

Kunal Thakker: It does. But because [01:25:00] they because the because there’s a, there’s a segregation of duty. Right. Yeah. So the TCO make the sale. But [01:25:05] if that happens it turns into a refund. They’re not getting their bonus. There’s no point wasting everyone’s time. Yeah. Instead [01:25:10] if the patient’s unhappy it’s better to talk to them about it. Yeah. It’s about you. Look, your teeth [01:25:15] are really good, right? Yeah. You don’t, you know, you don’t need you don’t need veneers. You’ve got beautiful teeth. What are you unhappy with? [01:25:20] Let’s understand. And typically it might be the edges. You know they might need some edge bonding as opposed to kind of veneers. That [01:25:25] is a more likely plan that the dentist will then agree to do. So that’s how we’ve kind of made sure [01:25:30] we don’t have any bad practices.

Payman Langroudi: On this board. We’d like to talk about mistakes. Yes. What [01:25:35] would you say is your biggest mistake on this journey?

Kunal Thakker: Uh, do [01:25:40] you know, um, I made loads of mistakes. Let’s be really honest. And [01:25:45] I don’t ever claim to be perfect. We strive for perfection. We never achieve it. Um, but. So the mistakes [01:25:50] that I made, you know, the fundamental mistakes is when I have driven my agenda [01:25:55] based on someone else’s opinion. Okay. And as an example, one [01:26:00] of the things is, is, you know, there’s this whole how many practices have you got, right? Everyone’s really [01:26:05] egotistical vanity metrics. It is a vanity metric. And one of my practices. And so [01:26:10] so I bought one of the practices, the NHS one um, I actually bought and [01:26:15] it wasn’t a, it wasn’t a squat practice. And it was because of this whole concept of how we want number of [01:26:20] practices. Um, and I’m looking to divest that investment actually, because it’s not [01:26:25] part of the Tooth Club group. It’s not branded as the Tooth Club Group. It’s kind of a separate separate entity. And I did it because [01:26:30] there was this whole numbers game and what I’ve learned, and it was a mistake because it wasn’t the right practice [01:26:35] for the group. It doesn’t fit. It’s not performed how the rest of the group has performed. And it was. [01:26:40] And it’s been a real mistake. It’s been a really costly mistake of mine, but I’ve learned from it. And actually, [01:26:45] um, you know, there’s there’s no sense in having, you know, 50 practices if they’re [01:26:50] not making profit and they don’t and they don’t align and they’re a constant thorn in your backside, of course. Right. [01:26:55] So I think that’s I think that’s probably the mistake that I’ve made. And I’ve, I’ve, I’ve learned from [01:27:00] um, and but then I’ve also learned that actually it’s okay to put your hands up and say it’s a mistake and actually [01:27:05] proper strategy behind it. And that’s why we’re going to reinvest or divest from that, that investment. [01:27:10]

Payman Langroudi: I’ve come to the end of our time. Um, I feel like I could ask you for [01:27:15] loads more questions. Um, but we always finish with the same questions. Yeah. Fantasy [01:27:20] dinner party. Yeah. Three guests, dead or alive. [01:27:25] Who do you reckon?

Kunal Thakker: Dead or alive. Do you know what I have to say, Michael Jackson? Just because I’m a huge [01:27:30] fan like you, you have to. Unfortunately.

Payman Langroudi: Unfortunately, I was a Prince fan. Oh.

Kunal Thakker: Were you?

Payman Langroudi: You [01:27:35] couldn’t.

Kunal Thakker: Be both. Yeah. Although you got to have respect for Prince. Yeah. [01:27:40] No, Michael, I’m a huge Michael Jackson fan. Uh, I love the song. The dance. Um, who else [01:27:45] do you know? I love Steven Bartlett. I feel he he’s really made not just on his talk, [01:27:50] but he’s really changed the way people think about business entrepreneurship. Uh, [01:27:55] real ambassador for it. Something I never had when I was younger. You know, it was always. You go and work for a big company. [01:28:00] Um, so I love I love Steven, Steven Bartlett, and then another person that I could [01:28:05] have at the dinner table. Do you know what? Mark Zuckerberg. [01:28:10] Yeah, a bit of Facebook. Learned some inspirational story. I think those will probably be. That’ll [01:28:15] be a good a good, interesting bunch. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:28:20] the final question, it’s kind of a deathbed question.

Kunal Thakker: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: On your deathbed, [01:28:25] surrounded by your loved ones? Yeah. What are three pieces of advice you’d give them? [01:28:30]

Kunal Thakker: You know, [01:28:35] that’s a really hard question. What advice would I give them on my deathbed? Don’t sweat the small [01:28:40] stuff. Um, I think is number is number one. Um, do you know what? I’m [01:28:45] big. I’m quite spiritual. So I believe in the universe. And I believe that what’s meant to be is be. And you [01:28:50] can attract the law of attracting what you want. So having a positive mindset and not letting things and [01:28:55] not letting things break you, uh, bring you down. Um, but I guess you know what the big one I’d [01:29:00] say is, you know, don’t worry about what people are doing around you. Have your vision and and [01:29:05] go for it. Learn from what’s going on around, but don’t let it distract you on your journey. Yeah. Um, because [01:29:10] even now, today, like, you know, I get investment opportunities and things that kind of are there to distract [01:29:15] me from my mission and what I’m doing. And I have to be really clear about. No, I’m on a mission. I know what I’m doing and not [01:29:20] not allow myself to get distracted. So, um, I think, you know.

Payman Langroudi: For that What you’re saying they’re focusing [01:29:25] on your customer rather than your competitors, for instance.

Kunal Thakker: Agreed.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so, so important. [01:29:30] So, so.

Kunal Thakker: Important. And you know, you’ve got to do what’s right for you. And, you know, [01:29:35] like, you know, I’ve created Tooth Club. There’s other great dental groups out there or dental practices out there. Everyone’s doing it a little bit differently. [01:29:40] I think it’s the difference. That’s the beauty. Um, because do you know what those old [01:29:45] school, dirty old dental practices that I used to go as a child, they don’t exist that much anymore. I don’t [01:29:50] think there’s a few. There’s a few. But, you know, they, you know, and whereas I think, you know, a lot of [01:29:55] people are bringing their dental practices into the 21st century, you know, with the with the nice scanners, with [01:30:00] the, the good technology and with the desire to do the right thing by the patient. And I think that’s [01:30:05] a beauty thing, thing that we should be proud of as a.

Payman Langroudi: As a finance guy. You haven’t gone down the route of [01:30:10] private equity or VC. Is that because you there’s the the [01:30:15] sort of urge to own your own business and be your own boss and do your own crazy thing is stronger.

Kunal Thakker: So [01:30:20] I’ve had I’ve had offers actually I have, I’ve had offers. Um, I had one [01:30:25] that last year that I was very, very close to signing with. Um, and I didn’t. So you might. [01:30:30]

Payman Langroudi: Still do it in the future.

Kunal Thakker: Do you know what? I might still do it. What was the what was.

Payman Langroudi: The key reason you didn’t go ahead? Was it that [01:30:35] control thing? You know.

Kunal Thakker: You’ve got you’ve. Do you know it [01:30:40] has. Everything has to have its time. It was too early. It was too early. Not the right [01:30:45] deal. And I think there was still a way to go. Go for myself. I also think the market with [01:30:50] interest rates and things weren’t the right time. So. But I would say to anyone that’s got a Dental [01:30:55] group or Dental business or even one practice, make sure you know what your exit strategy is, whether that’s retirement, [01:31:00] whether that’s selling to the corporates, whether that’s private equity. You’ve got to know what what exit [01:31:05] strategies you need to know how you get out is um, so I think that’s really, really important. Will we do it [01:31:10] one day? Possibly. Um, but it has to be the right partnership. If I’m going to get in bed with someone, it [01:31:15] has to be the right partnership. It has to be the right people, and it has to be the right timing. And I think for us right now. [01:31:20] If I can do it myself and I can continue to put my spin on things, um, and get my business [01:31:25] to be in a place where we’ve really tried, tested this model and be really confident in that will be the right time [01:31:30] to do it.

Payman Langroudi: The funny thing about it is it’s like there’s growing pains. It’s not like someone [01:31:35] gives you £30 million. Everything’s going to be all right. Right? Um, because, you know, right now you’ve got your [01:31:40] team that does the practices. Now, if someone says, I want you to open two practices a week. [01:31:45] So now you need two teams, right? Yes, but you’ve only got one cable guy. Yeah, I know exactly. Changes [01:31:50] the whole story. Yeah.

Kunal Thakker: It does. And you know, the the scale, [01:31:55] the scale actually excites me because I feel like I can build that scale. Um, but, you know, [01:32:00] there’s when you involve private equity, they want to they are demanding of certain results. And I’ve always [01:32:05] had this thing that if you have to choose between being the biggest or the best, we’re going to choose to be the best. I don’t want [01:32:10] 50 practices that are turning over half a million. Right. Yeah. You know, my practices turn over a lot more good [01:32:15] size EBITDA. So I’d rather fewer. But do it. Do it the right way. And that’s kind of been at the core. [01:32:20] So you have these conflicting, conflicting views and how you manage that. And getting the right partner [01:32:25] that’s bought into that I think is really important. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much [01:32:30] for doing this. I really enjoyed it.

Kunal Thakker: Thank you. It’s been great.

Payman Langroudi: You enjoyed it. Thank you.

[VOICE]: This [01:32:35] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one [01:32:40] on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:32:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:32:50] for listening guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And [01:32:55] just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we [01:33:00] had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. [01:33:05]

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [01:33:10] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. [01:33:15] Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.