In this insightful episode, Dru Shah, a specialist periodontist and founder of the Dentinal Tubules network, discusses the state of dental education, personal growth, and the challenges facing the dental profession. 

He shares his views on leadership, the importance of trust in dentistry, and the need for a more patient-centric approach. Dru also touches on broader societal issues, including multiculturalism and social integration.

In This Episode

00:02:00 – Authenticity

00:04:35 – Reading and learning

00:07:10 – Repetition

00:08:35 – The challenge of engagement

00:16:35 – Learning styles

00:22:50 – Dentinal Tubules

00:25:55 – CPD and commoditisation

00:29:25 – Relationship-building

00:35:25 – Leadership and team management

00:41:35 – Awards and humility

00:44:45 – AI learning

00:52:50 – Career planning

00:57:50 – Dentinal Tubules Congress and future plans

01:03:55 – Unrest in the UK

01:15:55 – Multiculturalism, integration and breaking down barriers

 

About Dru Shah

Dhru is a specialist in periodontics and the CEO of Dentinal Tubules, an online training platform for dentists across the globe.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Dentistry, like you say, is in the best place, but you had 50% of the population are not able [00:00:05] to see a dentist now. Yeah. The conversation here is, is very interesting. Are they, you [00:00:10] know, are they not able to see a dentist or are they not able to see an NHS dentist? Now that’s [00:00:15] a different conversation. Um, but but it’s a funny thing because in this country, people [00:00:20] have not saved up for their teeth. Yeah. And there’s [00:00:25] no insurance to help out. And there’s a there’s a sort of national insurance, right. Yeah. So [00:00:30] but in the US, people know that. I don’t know. I’ve got to save up for college. I’ve got to save up [00:00:35] for the kids braces or whatever. And it’s part of the psyche. Everyone [00:00:40] knows that. Yeah. Because everyone knows that jobs have insurance that [00:00:45] you can extend to your kids, dental insurance that you can extend. That’s why people go [00:00:50] for those jobs. I mean, I had a guy in one of our partners, our suppliers, um, in the US, [00:00:55] saying, the only reason I’m working in this company is. Well, no, the reason why I’m happy working [00:01:00] in this company is because the company my wife works in gives us medical insurance [00:01:05] for both of us, and I’m I’m going to retire soon. What I’m saying is that the setup [00:01:10] is that way.

[VOICE]: This [00:01:15] is Dental Leaders, the [00:01:20] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [00:01:25] Your hosts Payman Langroudi [00:01:30] and Prav Solanki.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome [00:01:35] Drew Shah back onto the podcast. Drew is a specialist periodontist best [00:01:40] known for his Dentinal Tubules network and community that he [00:01:45] set up 15 years ago now. This is actually Drew’s third appearance on this podcast. [00:01:50] The first was five years ago, where me and Prav interviewed you, drew. [00:01:55] And then there was one other episode, maybe a year after that where you interviewed me in Prav. I [00:02:00] wish I had the episode numbers. I’ll try and get those into the show notes. How you doing, buddy? Thanks for coming in. Oh. Thanks, [00:02:05] man. I feel like you’re making me part of the furniture here now. Um, I might take over as the [00:02:10] host at this rate, but. No, it’s a pleasure. You know, your podcast is so [00:02:15] awesome because it’s been delving into stories of people, and I like the person [00:02:20] behind the person kind of approach that you’ve really opened up. It’s so important in the industry. [00:02:25] We see people on social and we see them on, you know, we get [00:02:30] snippets of people and humans as we are very quick at making judgements. Yeah. [00:02:35] So it’s just so good. What you do is quite cool. Yeah. I mean, it’s funny [00:02:40] because after this podcast, Richard is going to take you upstairs and he’s going to do these video bits with you. Yeah. And [00:02:45] it’s the exact opposite of the podcast. A podcast is like deep dive, long form [00:02:50] emotional conversation.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: But then upstairs, he’s going to be showing you pictures of celebrities. And whose smile [00:02:55] is this? Like the. A, like a very, very like simple on [00:03:00] the surface thing and, you know, content. The reason why people listen [00:03:05] to podcasts is to get that authenticity, isn’t it? That behind [00:03:10] the curtain, you know, why should someone listen to this instead of watching an episode of succession? [00:03:15] You have to remember that it’s not I’m not this this podcast is not in competition with Jazz [00:03:20] Galati’s podcast or something like that. It’s in competition with time, whatever else you could be doing in that [00:03:25] time. Yeah. And so the reason to listen to this, I think why, you know, someone [00:03:30] who’s on their drive to work right now or walking the dog or in the gym, [00:03:35] is to get that authenticity behind the social media kind [00:03:40] of thing that you’re talking about, right? The show reel, it’s a huge behind that. And it’s, [00:03:45] it’s it’s also, um, an interactive conversation. You know, this is a form [00:03:50] of on demand radio. Almost. Right. And actually, somebody was telling me very interestingly, [00:03:55] they said you should move tubules and do more podcasts. Now, you know, I was doing podcasts in [00:04:00] 2013. Wow. And there’s a kid called Cam Kid. Damien Walmsley, retired consultant [00:04:05] now. Right. Um, and I was I was genuinely a toddler based on [00:04:10] that definition. But Damien Walmsley and I did loads of podcasts. 2013 [00:04:15] before I moved into the realms of videos, fully video learning.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: People always say, why [00:04:20] don’t you do more podcasts? Because that’s what I do on the gym. And and one of the things I’ve been [00:04:25] writing a book and I’m actually studying and understanding the pros and cons of different methods of [00:04:30] information sharing and podcasts are that interactive way [00:04:35] of doing stuff. And I suppose getting an insight into [00:04:40] brief insight into different areas, topics, people, they’re not deep learning, but they have such [00:04:45] a good way of opening the door. Yeah, for a lack of a better phrase. I love that. Yeah, [00:04:50] especially as you can do something else while you’re listening to a podcast. Right. That’s the thing. [00:04:55] It’s passive. It’s passive information in your head. Um, I mean, I don’t recommend people to [00:05:00] listen to a lot yourself. You know what? I listen more to audiobooks. Um, I [00:05:05] the podcast that really grasped my attention from a Dental side [00:05:10] were the Leaders podcast, um, which I enjoy because of the stories from a non Leaders [00:05:15] side. I have enjoyed Malcolm Gladwell’s podcasts because they’re really good. Um, [00:05:20] and then I just end up on random podcasts. I. Are you always reading a book [00:05:25] the whole time? Uh, I yeah, my car’s always got an audiobook on. [00:05:30] You’re always reading a book. I’m always. I go through a book a week. Book a week, to put it that way. [00:05:35] Uh, I sent this photo to someone. Right. Covid. I was getting three books delivered [00:05:40] by Amazon every week or something.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Actual books. So I’ve got a process, um, which [00:05:45] is read the book, listen to the audiobook at the same time. I know [00:05:50] after I’ve read the book twice. Twice. And then the third time I read the book. And I’ll make notes. Um. [00:05:55] And really internalise it. And, uh, so after Covid, my wife [00:06:00] came into my. My office is my study at home. So what the hell is this? Bombsight? Honest [00:06:05] to God, I. I sent these photos to people, and so we had to clear it all. And, [00:06:10] uh, anyway, my son started counting the books because we were putting it in the shared library. [00:06:15] 120 books in the last five years. Wow. Um, I think it’s what [00:06:20] he counted, but it’s. Yeah, I’m always. I think it’s my dopamine [00:06:25] information. I feel lost if something’s not entering my brain and processing. So, [00:06:30] yeah, it’s interesting that you go for that repetition because it’s so important. Yeah, [00:06:35] I, I’ve told this story before. I had a CD multi changer [00:06:40] if you remember what that is. Yeah that’s right. Loved it. Yeah I had a CD multi [00:06:45] changer in one of my Alfa Romeos that I used to drive up and down the country visiting [00:06:50] dentists before. Before there was online sales calls. Right. And, um, it [00:06:55] was one of those five, six discs that you’re stuck in under the seat somewhere. But something happened [00:07:00] to it and it wouldn’t change the discs anymore.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: So I just had those six [00:07:05] CDs to play and nothing else on the radio. Yeah. And because I was driving up and down the country, [00:07:10] those six got listened to a lot. Yeah. One of those six was one [00:07:15] episode of Tony Robbins I bought like the 20 disc, you know, [00:07:20] empower the the whatever, the Giant Within or whatever. I can’t remember which one of them it was. It was one of those. Yeah, [00:07:25] it was just one of the 20 CDs. I must have listened to that one maybe [00:07:30] a hundred times. Wow. Overall. Overall. Yeah. But [00:07:35] the number of times that information is hardwired in my head and it was the episode [00:07:40] was about what are the five key questions when you face overwhelm? Yes. [00:07:45] But the number of times do I love who am I grateful for? What am I? What am I not willing [00:07:50] to do anymore? What am I willing to do? How can I get through it and enjoy the process? [00:07:55] And who’s done it before? Is the other one. But the number of times I’ve given that information out to friends [00:08:00] and family, people who are overwhelmed right in that moment of overwhelm. But but I don’t remember [00:08:05] any of the other 19 disks. Right? None of the rest. Can I tell you what they said? [00:08:10] But that one I can tell you. So repetition is so huge. We have it with mini spa makeover [00:08:15] as well.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: We repeat and repeat and repeat throughout the two days. But [00:08:20] you’re so involved in dental education. Yeah. [00:08:25] And you know, we’re all struggling with this question of okay. [00:08:30] Number one, how do you get people to dental education? Because a lot of times we see the same faces. Yeah. [00:08:35] You know, course junkies that sort of thing. Number two, how do you make it so that [00:08:40] the education is actually used by the delegate? Yeah. And it’s [00:08:45] not only just that two days where they’re they’re involved and engaged. How do they [00:08:50] actually use that? How do they move forward? Yeah. And how do you how do you explain to delegates and, and [00:08:55] in general to the profession that the education tends to be the beginning of a process, [00:09:00] not the end of a process? Right. That people think I can go on this two day composite [00:09:05] course and on the, on the Monday morning, I’m fully ready to go. Number [00:09:10] two, how do you make it enjoyable? Because I meet loads of people [00:09:15] on courses who are there because they’re just away for the weekend. Yeah. [00:09:20] They just it’s almost like a good excuse to be away from your life for a weekend and [00:09:25] good on them because, you know, dentistry is hard work. Um, that’s why we try and make it, like, [00:09:30] a social bit. And then the final one. How do you make it affordable for everyone? [00:09:35] Yeah. Yeah. Now, you’ve been so involved in dental education, I think.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Any insights? [00:09:40] You know, first things first. I mean, your first question is very important. How do you get people, you know, involved in [00:09:45] and using education. But actually, this is one of the questions that after I [00:09:50] did the last podcast, Covid hit, right. Covid hit, there was a pandemic of webinars [00:09:55] and suddenly things changed. You know, for how many 20 years I’ve [00:10:00] been telling people online education is a way. That’s right. Covid, you know, there’s like one person and [00:10:05] his name, Nils Palmer, goes, this webinar stuff’s really good now, mate. I’ve been doing for ten years. Where have [00:10:10] you been? Um, and because that information gateway opened up [00:10:15] and that’s not changed now, right? Last five years we’ve seen so much information. [00:10:20] So when we started tubules ten years ago, the problem was the lack of access to content. [00:10:25] Now it’s about lack of curation of content. Yeah. Now, [00:10:30] the one of the questions that I asked quite heavily was, okay, so how do [00:10:35] you curate content? How do you. And I realised actually education is the middle piece. And [00:10:40] and I was telling you it’s about growth right. It’s about improvement. So the thing [00:10:45] that you will engage with in education is the thing that [00:10:50] is valuable and inspiring to you. So step before education is [00:10:55] ask yourself what’s inspiring you? What’s driving you? What’s lighting your spark or [00:11:00] the other side right where you’re going? What’s going to put you into shit so you better learn before [00:11:05] I end up in that place.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: So it’s that Tony Robbins pain and pleasure. That’s what you’ll [00:11:10] take in. Because beyond that, everything goes over your head or you don’t [00:11:15] apply it. You see a lot of people go on courses, get away for the weekend. But the question to [00:11:20] ask is, why are you on that course? What progress do you want to [00:11:25] make? So the step before education, in fact, the two steps before education. [00:11:30] First step is that work out what is your [00:11:35] biggest obstacle. The second step is optimise a strategy. And [00:11:40] this has been some of my work over the last few years. So from a personal journey. Um, [00:11:45] I think I was telling you, I nearly lost tubules. I don’t know, six years ago or [00:11:50] something. Right. We we were five days or something from closure. Money had come through, and I remember. [00:11:55] So I ended up asking an existential crisis [00:12:00] question. Who am I? Why am I here? Kind of shit is deep, right? But [00:12:05] to then figure out my obstacle was trying to understand me. Who? Who am I? What’s [00:12:10] the thing? Took me into an education journey of understanding, learning, self-awareness. How [00:12:15] do you figure out insight? How do you do all this sort of stuff? Now that’s half the books I [00:12:20] read. Probably. I wouldn’t have done that if I didn’t understand my problem. And [00:12:25] so people really spend very little time sitting [00:12:30] back and delving deep into their problem or obstacle or whatever your challenge [00:12:35] you want to call it.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: And then you go to realise there’s a [00:12:40] surface challenge and there’s a deeper challenge. The surface challenge is your, I [00:12:45] don’t know, your I call it the pseudo problem. It’s a hidden problem. And it is equated [00:12:50] to dentistry. You know, your patient comes in and goes, I had pain, I took some antibiotics. They thought the problem [00:12:55] was pain, infection. The real problem was tooth’s got a big hole [00:13:00] and a crack and everything else, which needs some professional help. I think we spent very little time [00:13:05] figuring that out, particularly in dentistry. What do we instead do is we get, [00:13:10] um, driven by sheep. Someone says this is a brilliant course. I went in, all right, let’s all of us book [00:13:15] this course. Right. That’s the first step. Second thing is people don’t optimise the strategy. [00:13:20] And I suppose what I can put it is every problem has complexity. [00:13:25] If someone identifies their problem is communication. I can’t [00:13:30] get my patients to take up treatment, whatever. Actually, that’s a pseudo problem. The [00:13:35] real problem underneath that the problem isn’t Communication. The problem is trust, [00:13:40] right? Patients don’t take up treatment because they don’t trust you. But then the complexity [00:13:45] is it’s not just okay, I’m going to learn about communication trust. Let’s think about all [00:13:50] the facets of that problem. Right. And let’s unlock this because [00:13:55] they talk about the five whys.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Have you heard about that. The five whys. The five whys. Yeah. Yeah. [00:14:00] The fifth. Why is the one that gets to the. So I’m looking for the Chanel bag. Why? [00:14:05] Yeah. Because I want to feel like one of the girls. Why? Because I didn’t feel like one [00:14:10] of the girls. Why? And it goes all the way down to because my mom said something to me or something like that. [00:14:15] Yeah, but that’s kind of where you’re going with it. That’s. That’s where you got to start with the five whys is a perfect strategy. [00:14:20] Um, I’ve worked out another one called, I think it’s called the 3 or 4 P’s as well. You know, what’s your goal? [00:14:25] What’s your behaviours. You know, what are you working on? What are what are the things you do regularly [00:14:30] and then work out the possibilities on that, that because these are my strengths and weaknesses. That’s [00:14:35] why you do something more often than not, right? You’ll always play to your strengths. You always play to what you’re comfortable with, and [00:14:40] then you figure out, hold on, I’ve got a block here. Because of those reasons, the [00:14:45] five whys is actually trying to do that. Toyota built their entire company on this amazingly. [00:14:50] Um, what’s the book? Speed of Trust by Stephen Covey? Stephen Covey’s [00:14:55] son. Right. Um, so the three three generations, Stephen Covey, Stephen Covey, [00:15:00] junior, Stephen Covey, junior, junior. Each one has written a book.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: I didn’t know that. Yeah. It’s hilarious. So speed [00:15:05] of trust written by not the original guy. Anyway, he talks about the five whys. He goes do that with [00:15:10] your patients. But the five whys is the first step. If you can figure out that and then optimise your strategy, [00:15:15] I’ll tell you what. You’ll end up on a course better value for money. You won’t end up on one course. [00:15:20] You’ll end up on five courses, each covering a different angle. You’ll understand that problem better [00:15:25] and the solution better. So you can imagine learning comes as [00:15:30] a third step, you know problem optimise, then learn. Now if you do [00:15:35] that one, you’ll end up on the right course. Two. You won’t waste money. Three. You’ll clear [00:15:40] out all the noise and four threes. And most powerful is. You’ll know why you’re there, [00:15:45] what questions you want answering. You’ll be paying more attention on that course, by the way. Let’s imagine you [00:15:50] are totally self-aware and you’ve worked it out. And you realise my weakness is communication, [00:15:55] right? Even before working on a course, by [00:16:00] the way, obviously get the right course. But even before working on a course, the course of the best [00:16:05] book on the subject. Yeah, was £250. Yeah. Like some, [00:16:10] some book on, you know anything. Layers of one of the quintessence books. Let’s [00:16:15] say it’s composite. Um, £250 for the cost of the book. Yeah. The book will [00:16:20] give you massive insights that the course will not know.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Yeah, because it’s a book. [00:16:25] Yeah. Of course, if you read the book and make notes on it and know everything about it, it’s [00:16:30] still like having read a book about how to sail a ship without ever sailing, you [00:16:35] know, without the ocean present. Right? So I know all the bits, of course. [00:16:40] Kind of will give you that insight a bit more, right? Correct. But you’re right. [00:16:45] And then, of course, there’s the post-course side of it. The mentoring [00:16:50] questions answers often, you know, when you’re talking about strengths [00:16:55] and weaknesses here in in a course, it’s important to try and figure out who [00:17:00] the strongest ones and who are the weakest ones and which where to put your attention. Yeah, yeah. Because because, [00:17:05] because you, you know, in a way you think of it in a linear way. Well, okay, let me put my attention [00:17:10] on the weaker ones. Yeah. But the weaker ones are holding back the rest of the class kind [00:17:15] of thing. Yeah. Um, obviously the stronger ones appreciate the attention even more. [00:17:20] And, you know, there’s that sort of. But I think that you’ve got to think, well, what do you mean by stronger and weaker? [00:17:25] Because, um, when you learn course, the first thing to do as a course provider, the first thing [00:17:30] I end up doing is stepping down and going back to what I just said, ask people, why are you here? Yeah, yeah.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: What’s the [00:17:35] thing you want to get out of this course? Because and I internalise it quite strongly because I [00:17:40] want to understand what they want to learn. So we do this two day period surgery course covers a million things [00:17:45] right now. If one person said, actually, I’m pretty crap at suturing, that’s why I’m here. And one goes [00:17:50] and never held a blade in my life. Now it’s easy to just say the one who hasn’t held [00:17:55] the blade is the weaker one, but actually they are at a different part of the course. [00:18:00] When we’re teaching incisions, they’re going to need more attention. When I go into suturing, this person [00:18:05] is going to need more attention. And again, it’s unlocking those nuances, unlocking [00:18:10] each delegate. I mean, teaching is hard work. It kills you because of that. You’re you’re you’re you’re 14 [00:18:15] people who you’re trying to unlock. And that’s what you’ve got to do. Now, what [00:18:20] we have to then work out is which part of a course is going to be relevant to who, and [00:18:25] at those stages, who is then going to need the most attention and how what’s their level. [00:18:30] You know, they’ve done nothing. They’re going to be you know, they’ve done nothing. I’m going to have to teach them how to load a [00:18:35] blade on the blade holder. Well, they’ve done loads. So I’m going to have to teach them the nuances [00:18:40] of how do you move the suture into the tissues while holding the tissue the right way.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: And [00:18:45] each one, then you realise they’re weak, they’re they’re weak, they’re and they’re strong. They’re [00:18:50] they’re strong there. That’s the hard part. And of those two days everyone must go away [00:18:55] going. My problem was met on this course implementations, [00:19:00] the hard work. And if you’ve not found a problem and all you do, [00:19:05] then you’ll never implement it. But if you’ve come on a course having diagnosed your problem, guess what? [00:19:10] You know why you’re on the course. You’re going to go and try and solve it. And that that adds and [00:19:15] how much power that adds. I don’t know, a huge amount. On the repetition front, we encourage [00:19:20] people who’ve come on the composite course to come again. Yeah. For free. Yeah. Obviously they don’t [00:19:25] do the hands on bit for free. They sit in the back. But the reason why I’ve done that is because I’ve obviously [00:19:30] been to that course 70, 80, 100 times, right? I’m still learning every [00:19:35] time. Every time. I’m still learning because I’m seeing it with different eyes. I’m focusing at different parts [00:19:40] of the process. I’m getting hardwired bits that I didn’t grasp, and now I take for granted. [00:19:45] You know, there was a study they did of teaching neurosurgeons or was it vascular [00:19:50] surgeons? Right. They were, um, suturing rats vessels. One [00:19:55] group was told, you will learn there were four, four procedures. You learn all four of them in [00:20:00] one day, one session.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: The second group was told you will learn four procedures spread over [00:20:05] four weeks. So one procedure. Wait for a week. Next procedure. Now here’s the interesting thing. [00:20:10] The group that had learned everything in one intense session. When they then went on rats, [00:20:15] they were much worse, 50% worse. In fact, some of them 50%, [00:20:20] 50%. And some of them, um, even managed to damage [00:20:25] the the rats arteries so badly they couldn’t save them, right? While those who had done stuff [00:20:30] well, there were 50% better they could. Their skills were better. All the measurements were better. [00:20:35] Now, the reason this happens is because you’ve said bit of it. You look at it a different [00:20:40] perspective. But also when you’ve learned something, you’ve learned the first time you’ve [00:20:45] consciously learnt it, you go away. Your brain is sub processing [00:20:50] all of this. You’re getting other experiences. Your brain is making more connections. When you [00:20:55] come back the second time, what you’re doing without realising is you’re retrieving [00:21:00] this information you’d learned previously. Retrieval increases your your brain’s neuronal [00:21:05] connections, so you’re learning more the second time. So that’s [00:21:10] the power. And it’s basically there’s two things. One’s called interleaving. One’s called spacing. Those [00:21:15] are the scientific thoughts around it. Interleaving um, is is doing different [00:21:20] things rather than just learning the same thing. The spaced learning is keeping the spaces. [00:21:25] Uh, There’s loads of things like that. The other thing is passive and active learning.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: I’m boring you with this information. [00:21:30] Possibly, but passive learning is just imbibing things, right? Active learning is saying, you [00:21:35] know, let’s, um, actually make you do stuff. So this three groups, one group was told to read [00:21:40] an article, um, and then some time later read it again. Some time later, read [00:21:45] it again. So three reads and then the fourth time write it down. Second group was [00:21:50] told read twice, I think I can’t remember and then write it down. The third group was given one reading and told [00:21:55] write it down. They were tested immediately after the first group had 82% [00:22:00] memory, right? Fine. Second group had 70%, third group had something like 7780, [00:22:05] 69%, something like that. But what happened is the biggest challenge was a week [00:22:10] later or the biggest gain. That first group, who had 82%, had dropped down [00:22:15] after a week to 62% because they’d been told to read, read, read, which is passive learning. [00:22:20] Last group they were told to read only once and write things down. You have to recall so much, [00:22:25] they only lost about 6% of what they had. So there’s [00:22:30] a lot of power in two things spacing your learning. And each time you learn making [00:22:35] that effort rather than just sitting there and skilling things in. Huge [00:22:40] power in all of that. Um, and these are some of the tools I’m building on the new tubules, which I’m really excited [00:22:45] about because I think, um, just sitting there and learning is, is a bit passive. [00:22:50]

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: We want to make it the most powerful learning engine growth engine. So this is some of the stuff we’re coming on board. Love it. [00:22:55] So let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about where we are as a snapshot right now. I mean the [00:23:00] community numbers, the, you [00:23:05] know, engagement. They’re not. How many people are you guys. We’re still the team [00:23:10] of we were six when I last came here and we’re probably eight now. Is that it? Yeah. Eight. [00:23:15] Super hard working. Yeah. They’re still doing the job. I know your people. Your people give you [00:23:20] 24 hours a day, right? You know, I’ve always said. And I always said, I’ll let [00:23:25] them do it at their own pace. I just say, look, guys, this needs doing. And it happens. Um, and it’s again, [00:23:30] that connection, you know, that purpose driven energy though. Yeah. That you get from a [00:23:35] company like yours. Leadership. You know, I’m not blowing trumpet, but I’ve always said, [00:23:40] guys, this is not about me or you or you know, us. It’s about the person said [00:23:45] at the end of the computer or in our conference who’s experiencing what we want to deliver [00:23:50] for them. It’s always about them. Um, and the more you put out there and I also say, look, the [00:23:55] more we, uh, give to tubules, the more tubules builds, the more we can [00:24:00] support the foundation. And those two facts, leadership. You know, what are some of the headlines? What [00:24:05] are some of the headlines? So so how many people are members? What’s actually what’s hold on this.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: What is the [00:24:10] current offering. So look the current pay you how much and what do I get. The current offering [00:24:15] is something £250 a year. Yeah. And you get a huge amount of online content. [00:24:20] Yeah. Um, which is we actually did this audit just about [00:24:25] a couple of years ago. We had 72,000 minutes of content, 2000 [00:24:30] videos. Right. Compare that to Ted talks. At that point, they had 69,000 minutes. [00:24:35] Wow. So we had more in dentistry than Ted talks, which covers the world. Wow. But that’s just one offering, [00:24:40] you know. And then we have the study clubs. We have the community. You get how many of them are there? Uh, there [00:24:45] are about 52. Around the 52? Yeah. Wow. But, you [00:24:50] know, they’re a mixture of how often do they meet active mix? The variable depends on who’s leading them. [00:24:55] What about the top one? How often does that one meet? The top ones do at least once a month. Once a month? At least once a month. [00:25:00] Eight times a year. Because they’re not going to do Christmas or and then events. You’ve got your main event, the Congress. [00:25:05] But unfortunately you’re telling me is the last one. It’s the last one, which I can’t believe. But there’s [00:25:10] that. We’ll go into that in a minute. And then there’s are there other events.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Mhm. We do roadshows around [00:25:15] the country. How many of them we this year we did 8 or 9 of them um, last [00:25:20] year and and did about 15 across the country. Look, everyone says that everything’s [00:25:25] down in London. I think you’ve probably faced this. So one of the big things we said is let’s take it around the country. [00:25:30] But also remember, part of the roadshows is tubules, educators who’ve spent [00:25:35] years doing all the forms of learning, teaching. So they’ve done the online [00:25:40] teaching, they’ve done the courses. All of these. And the roadshows is their last hurdle before they get [00:25:45] the tubules teacher jacket, which is a recognition for their hard [00:25:50] work commitment to helping others grow. Uh, for £250. [00:25:55] Most people get that, which I think is is is probably more than value for money. It’s a, um, [00:26:00] but a lot of people tend to think it’s still expensive because they see tubules [00:26:05] as CPD. And one of the big challenges is I figured in dentistry [00:26:10] is what you’ve just said. We see 20% of the people attending, 80% of [00:26:15] all the learning. Uh, and how do we how do we move more people into [00:26:20] growth? You know, stop ticking boxes. I’m getting you know, I tell people, stop ticking boxes. [00:26:25] The GDC and the CQC in the UK have made this culture. Here’s [00:26:30] a list CPD do this. Like that’s not going to help you grow. If anything, it’s going to [00:26:35] devalue you.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Um, but that commoditization of CPD has become [00:26:40] a big challenge for us. Yeah. For instance, I tell my team not to even, like, [00:26:45] advertise CPD. You know, like, you take someone who’s a marketing [00:26:50] person. Yeah. Yeah. They don’t know what’s going on. Right. They just like they want to list. What are the benefits [00:26:55] of this course? Well, of course you get this skill. You learn that you get a certificate, you get CPD, you [00:27:00] know, so then they start to market. The fact that you get CPD with this. Yeah. And I don’t [00:27:05] want anyone to come on any of our education in order to get a CPD box. Right. Yeah. [00:27:10] But even more than that, I don’t know what I think about this because it’s a fair [00:27:15] number of people who come to our course are coming to say they’ve been on the course on a CV. [00:27:20] Yeah. Yeah. And it’s actually one of the main drivers. [00:27:25] Yeah. To be able to move from NHS to private. Yeah. They think well [00:27:30] what are the things that a private dentist wants. If you’re just thinking randomly you’ll go oh it’s [00:27:35] it’s aligners. It’s a composite bonding I [00:27:40] guess. Implants. Right. You know, digital dentistry. And they almost go and tick off those [00:27:45] sort of courses to get a job. And it’s interesting because it’s a different motivation altogether. [00:27:50] Yeah. You know actually actually that you highlight. Let’s go to five once again. [00:27:55] But you highlight a big challenge here.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: What’s a private dentist or someone who does aligners and bonding. Hold [00:28:00] on. That’s 50% of the population out there looking for a general dentist. And people [00:28:05] think private dentistry is different. No. If you did your general proper dentistry, not [00:28:10] in NHS, but privately and just talk to patients and really built [00:28:15] their trust. Then guess what? You probably won’t win as much, right? I’m a periodontist. [00:28:20] 90% of my work is root planing. You know, people go gum gardening. Yeah, perfect. [00:28:25] But I get patients who come in. They’re willing. They don’t even sometimes ask me for the estimate. [00:28:30] Drew, when can we go and get this started? Right. And invariably, you know, our rates are high, [00:28:35] especially periodontists. If you can do that, you’ll do normal dentistry, [00:28:40] which is stress free. Easier for a specialist, though, dude. No. Yeah. No, but easier for a specialist. [00:28:45] I’ll tell you what it’s not. I mean, look, come on. Easier for. Especially because you’ve been presold by the referrer. [00:28:50] No, we I get walk ins. I get walk ins. Who? Actually. What word of mouth? Word [00:28:55] of mouth. Yeah, yeah. Who? Look at and go. You’re going to charge me more? Sometimes, yes. [00:29:00] They refer us pre-sold. But most times patients don’t come to you [00:29:05] because you’re a specialist. They come to you because you are the person who’s going to help them [00:29:10] cross this bridge. They want to know if you’re trustworthy, they want to know if you’re the person [00:29:15] who’s interest, you know you’re the dentist who’s interest is me.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: If I’m the patient, right. [00:29:20] If I’ve been on a course of how to win £1 million. Right. That course is [00:29:25] teaching me how to think about me. Let’s change these courses. Let’s go on courses [00:29:30] that tell you how to look after somebody else. How to win their trust. You know this. People [00:29:35] don’t buy what they see first. They buy what they feel. Everybody knows, right? If [00:29:40] someone feels good about you, they will buy anything from you. They [00:29:45] will come see you again and again. We’re forgetting this in dentistry, when things go wrong, [00:29:50] they won’t sue you. But things go wrong. They won’t sue you. They. They will be much more amicable. [00:29:55] In fact, when things go wrong, they might ask you if you’re okay first, right? Relationship [00:30:00] building is so powerful. It’s not the dentistry. And people have forgotten this because the dentists [00:30:05] always think is dentistry, right? All day long we sit there and go dentistry. What is dentistry? Two tooth [00:30:10] tooth. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Let’s go back. Dentistry is actually first, another human being [00:30:15] making something vulnerable that’s important to them and putting it in your hands. This is Charles [00:30:20] Feldman’s definition of trust. If they can put something that’s really important to them [00:30:25] and make it vulnerable to your hands, and you can say thank you for giving me this, what does that mean? Give me an [00:30:30] example of that when a patient comes to you.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Yeah. How easy is it [00:30:35] for the patient to sit down there and go be vulnerable? I don’t like this [00:30:40] gap in my teeth or I’m really worried about something. Right. They’ve seen it the [00:30:45] first time. Right. And they’re opening up to you. They are making themselves vulnerable. They’re giving [00:30:50] you their weakness. Right? Yeah. Step one. Step two. That’s important to you. Important [00:30:55] to them. Sorry. As a patient. Now they’ve taken it and put it in your hands. You have the power [00:31:00] to do what’s right for them, or you have the power to say, this is going to give me more [00:31:05] bonus points to go to platinum elite level, whatever. Right? That [00:31:10] choice of when you make that decision is hugely [00:31:15] important, because if you make a choice that’s right for the patient, they will get it. They will feel [00:31:20] it straight away. You do not need to do a lot of bonding and Invisalign and stuff. You [00:31:25] do what you are comfortable with and if you do it right for patients, my [00:31:30] God, these people come in in their hordes. We have a big trust issue with the public [00:31:35] out there. Why? Because we don’t address this very basic issue well, [00:31:40] because there’s a structural problem in that. As a patient, I can’t see what [00:31:45] my problem is and I can’t see what the solution is. And just [00:31:50] like me, I know nothing about cars.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: I take my car to a dealer. Yeah, I have no [00:31:55] idea, dude. No, I’ve got zero. I don’t know about you. I’ve got zero idea. When the guy says [00:32:00] he can say anything, he’ll say brakes need changing. Uh, oil, whatever. [00:32:05] You know, whatever. Whatever he says. Yeah, I’ve got two choices at that point. Go spend another [00:32:10] half a day finding another garage to get a second opinion. Yeah. Which I haven’t got that amount [00:32:15] of time. Yeah. Agree. And do everything or the opposite. Sorry. Three choices [00:32:20] not to do the thing and risk my family’s life. Correct. And that’s kind of the situation [00:32:25] structurally. That’s where we’re at in dentistry. Now, what you’re suggesting is very clever [00:32:30] and very important. If that is the structural problem, what are we going to do to address it? And [00:32:35] what I’m hearing from you for now is you’re saying to be a great guy and that will [00:32:40] come through. Is that what you’re saying? No. It’s more are you saying or are you saying there are tactics? No, don’t. [00:32:45] Don’t just be a great guy. Learn the art of understanding another human being. [00:32:50] Right. Go on. There’s an art to understanding another human being. And the first thing in that art is that God [00:32:55] gave you two reasons. And one mouth for a reason to listen. Yeah. To listen. Just listen. Let them talk. [00:33:00] Yeah. Let them open. It goes back to what we spoke about.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Just the way you select your courses [00:33:05] by identifying your problem. Yeah. Diagnosis. Make the right diagnosis. [00:33:10] Now with the car. When somebody says your brakes need doing [00:33:15] this and that you have one of you is going to go this. I don’t trust this guy. Right. [00:33:20] But if I pay him, you’re going to get buyer’s remorse at some level. But there are some mechanics you go [00:33:25] and see and you go, you know what? I trust this guy. He actually comes across correctly. Yeah. Right. Not because he’s a great [00:33:30] guy. Because he’s sat there and he spoke to me for a while. Why do you enjoy driving this car? [00:33:35] What’s great about treat me like a number? He treated me like a person. He treated me like a person. And beyond that, you want to try [00:33:40] and figure my kid, right? I sit with my boy. He’s six and a half now. There’s two ways I can deal [00:33:45] with this kid. He does something wrong. I can snap at him. Stick or carrot or stick or carrot. But [00:33:50] it’s not okay. Sit down and go. Okay, guy, let’s have a chat here. No crying. Sit down. Talk to me. So [00:33:55] now he’s learned. He sits down and goes, listen, I did something wrong. I know, but this was this story. Okay, great. Thanks. [00:34:00] You know how much trust that builds. We’re forgetting that. Just sit and listen. [00:34:05] I get an hour for a consult, right? The other day, some receptionist came.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: I couldn’t imagine [00:34:10] how much the patient was talking. I said yeah, because I was letting them talk. Let them. And it’s [00:34:15] also, um, there’s a massive there are things to this tactics. Right? So one [00:34:20] of them is figuring out people. One person says, I don’t want to lose all my teeth. Next one says, I want to keep [00:34:25] all my teeth. They mean the same thing, but they framed it differently. Stick and carrot. One [00:34:30] says, I don’t want this pain. I want this pleasure. You’re trying to understand that other human being. You’re trying [00:34:35] to connect it in their world. And if you connect in their world, they [00:34:40] kind of go, I like this guy. Where do I sign? But you try and go, okay, [00:34:45] I’m not going to connect to your world, but I can show you some manipulative ways of moving your side, right? So you have [00:34:50] you have a choice of one, two and three. There’s there’s one, right. There’s this. It’s an action. So you can’t do it. But [00:34:55] when it’s pointing in three directions, you have a choice of a denture bridge or an implant. Which one would you prefer? Yeah. [00:35:00] Subconsciously putting implant that that that has consequences after. [00:35:05] And I’m hearing more stories coming through now where we’re in deep financial crisis [00:35:10] and patients are only going, I spent three years. Three years ago I spent money on Invisalign and patients coming [00:35:15] and going.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Oh, actually, the dentist was very rushed at that time. Actually, they didn’t look after me. This [00:35:20] buyer’s remorse starts kicking in because emotionally, the wrong connection was made three years [00:35:25] ago, four years ago, five years ago. That emotional unravelling happens later. And [00:35:30] that brings another point. Long term play the long game. For God’s sake, take it easy. You’ve been doing this for [00:35:35] how many, 24 years, you said. Yeah, right. You know the story of the long game. People who trust you, they’ve [00:35:40] taken a while, right? That long game has a huge amount of power. We’re forgetting that you don’t [00:35:45] become a big winning practice or dentist or whatever in in one year. [00:35:50] It takes time. Just take your time. It’s it’s a tough journey. Taking time is a tough [00:35:55] journey because when things are not happening, you’re like, God sake, I got bills to pay. I got this to do. Just [00:36:00] just Handle that and you get a much better calibre of practice. [00:36:05] Career. Patience. Everything. Anyway, that’s my view. That’s beautiful. Now, I wanted to ask [00:36:10] you another question. Right. You come across so many dentists, probably more than any other person [00:36:15] I know, right? I come across a lot of dentists. I hardly know anyone who isn’t a dentist. Yeah. [00:36:20] Same as you. It’s unfortunate, man, I can’t find a plumber. But do [00:36:25] you recognise what I’m saying? When you come across a lot of these. These ones. Right. Very [00:36:30] happy. Dentists love their job.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Yeah. They define [00:36:35] themselves by their job. Almost. Their social life is intertwined [00:36:40] into their job. Want their children to be dentists. People like you, [00:36:45] right? You were just telling me if someone gives you $1 billion, you don’t want to sell the company. You want to keep going. [00:36:50] Yeah. Billions. Big number. But you see what I’m saying? There are those people. Yeah. [00:36:55] Then the opposite. That the exact opposite. I don’t [00:37:00] need to talk you through it, but you know all the different things that don’t want to go to work. And [00:37:05] then I type in the middle, I type in the middle. Yeah. Kind of like being a dentist. [00:37:10] They they like life more than dentistry ones. Now, what [00:37:15] are the characteristics, do you think of the type of person who loves it and the type [00:37:20] of person who hates it? Because for me, the one thing I’ve put put down that I can put my finger on [00:37:25] is the kind of guy who’s improving every day is engaged. The [00:37:30] kind of guy who isn’t in the job just isn’t interesting enough. If you’re not improving, you [00:37:35] know, it’s got all of the downsides is what you need, right? Yeah. Because, you [00:37:40] know, there’s other jobs where, you know, you could be, I don’t know, whatever it is flipping burgers, stacking shelves, whatever, where [00:37:45] the risk isn’t there, the stress isn’t there, and you’re just doing the job and you listen to your podcast [00:37:50] and that’s your life in dentistry.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: It’s full of risk, full of stress. If you’re [00:37:55] not enjoying it, it just can grind you down, right? 100%. And that’s [00:38:00] not just a history lesson, that’s life. Steve Jobs said something like, uh, uh, facing [00:38:05] difficulties is something you hate is stress, and facing difficulties is something you love is passion, right? [00:38:10] I think he said something, though. It sounds right as everywhere now. I actually since Covid, I’ve [00:38:15] picked up more phone calls from young dentists than I ever had in, you know, ten, 15 years before that. [00:38:20] They were lost. They were stuck. They were disheartened. They were facing challenges. [00:38:25] I’ve never picked up as many phone calls. Um, and this was part of the journey for [00:38:30] me. Uh, I was already trying to unlock my sort of personal [00:38:35] challenges and all that. But I realised everyone’s facing that kind of challenge. And you [00:38:40] know what it is. You don’t connect with what you do. Then it’s not you. [00:38:45] We’re all ultimately computers, right? We talk about strengths and weaknesses, [00:38:50] but we have our values. We have our the way we think. You know, we all have different ways [00:38:55] of processing. So I think logically, another way of thinking is musical [00:39:00] thinking. There’s 7 or 8 types of intelligence. If you listen to a guy called Howard Gardner. The [00:39:05] job you do is tapping into all of that. It’s tapping into your values, your beliefs, your ways [00:39:10] of thinking, your ways of operating.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: People love dentistry without realising. [00:39:15] I’ve been tapping into that for years now. You know. Let’s. Govinda. Right, guv. You [00:39:20] give guv any instrument. I’m not talking about dentistry. You give him an anvil or [00:39:25] whatever, he’ll go and paint and do his fence. This guy is naturally built to [00:39:30] build things. So he’s just building things in dentistry. That’s his natural persona. [00:39:35] These guys are always going to love dentistry because it’s not a job for them. It’s a simple [00:39:40] expression of their authentic self in there. The authenticity we talked about, and I think [00:39:45] that’s one of those things you put me on stage to talk. I can talk for Africa. I [00:39:50] think part of my authenticity is I just like to talk sometimes bull crap, sometimes [00:39:55] good stuff. But those people who don’t enjoy dentistry. I think part of [00:40:00] the challenge becomes that they’re just not connecting to it. They’re not the [00:40:05] doing type. Maybe they’re the, you know, writing type, the thinking type, whatever it is. [00:40:10] And if you actually ask them, they have talents outside of dentistry, you know, great artists, [00:40:15] great musicians, great singers, whatever. That’s one of the challenges. The [00:40:20] thing is, though, the job consists of doing certainly planning. Yeah, but a bunch of other [00:40:25] things here that the people side I mean, the one you’ve been talking about the whole of this podcast, [00:40:30] right. Yeah. Um, and then once you’re, you know, you’re owning a business or whatever, the business [00:40:35] side.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Right? Yeah. And it could be any one of those that’s out of kilter. Right? You [00:40:40] might be the best. Like DIY and Meccano guy who loves gluing [00:40:45] something on under rubber dam. Yeah. And yet your people skills are [00:40:50] just are just crap. You just you’re just. You suffer. No. There are people who say, you [00:40:55] know, introverts and extroverts, right? People who get drained by meetings and then people who get [00:41:00] fed by meetings. Right? Correct. So that’s the thing, right? And in the strengths and [00:41:05] weaknesses discussion, I think I’ve always been a proponent of work [00:41:10] on your strengths, not your weaknesses. Always Marcus Buckingham stuff. Yeah. Just just personally just be good at [00:41:15] what you are and make it better in my life. Maybe I’m on an ADHD or whatever it is. Yeah. Let’s say [00:41:20] I’ve got some really big weaknesses. You could give me the tools [00:41:25] and the books and the on the on that weakness. I just will not get involved in [00:41:30] it. But if your weakness is one of those 4 or 5 cornerstones [00:41:35] in dentistry, which is people planning, executing [00:41:40] staff, patients, business, all those those there are five, you know. Yeah. Essentials. [00:41:45] If one of those is a weakness to the point that it’s affecting all the others. [00:41:50] Yeah. You’ve got to address that weakness. You have to at some level. But. But we forget a partner. [00:41:55] That’s what I’m saying. You forget one thing, right? Is that actually, you’re not alone. [00:42:00]

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Build a team around you. Yeah, yeah. Right. And building your team is. Is actually that right? So if [00:42:05] I’m not complementary skills. Skills. Right. Why have we forgotten this industry? We have a nursing shortage [00:42:10] right now because we keep going. These technical courses. How many business owners? You said go [00:42:15] forget the technical. I’m going to go on leadership courses. Yeah, right. Leadership is about people management. How many [00:42:20] of us do it? Not enough. Now if I’m an introvert [00:42:25] let’s I’m going to put an example. But my nurse complements that skill. Yeah. Now [00:42:30] that I can harness that strength massively. These are the things. Listen, I’m a periodontist [00:42:35] because genuinely, I struggle with my hands. 20 years a dentist. It’s the hardest thing for [00:42:40] me has been technical skills, right? Hardest thing? I’m not even joking there. Periodontist [00:42:45] is behaviour change. I love that slide. Right. I’m going to be a periodontist because now [00:42:50] I have a few set of technical skills to master. It does. I’ve [00:42:55] done what you did. I’ve, you know, learned to be a specialist in technical skills of how you [00:43:00] build your weaknesses, but you build them around your strengths. That’s a sensible way to go. Pick [00:43:05] your strengths, then attach your weaknesses to it. Because that way your weakness [00:43:10] isn’t alone. It’s latching onto something stronger. I don’t know rock climbers, you know the best one goes forward and [00:43:15] the best one then leads the other one on.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Do that and you’ll suddenly find you go into a [00:43:20] much better way. Harness your team. I’m not the best at detail management. My [00:43:25] team are OCD. I come up with an idea, they go drew and I write it down. You missed a full [00:43:30] stop there. You did it. Suddenly they refine the idea. It’s a known concept, right? In business. [00:43:35] In everywhere. Why aren’t we doing that in dentistry? To a greater level? Are there some [00:43:40] patients cannot change with me? I try my best. I send them to the hygienist. [00:43:45] And her name’s Liddy. Best hygienist in the world. I say in my world anyway. [00:43:50] She changes this patient to come back. I’m like, whoa, what happened here? Harness that [00:43:55] strength. We need to do more of that hugely powerful, interesting idea that behaviour change [00:44:00] management for our patients in your field. Right. In perio [00:44:05] and hygiene. I reckon there should be a three month module yet. Purely, [00:44:10] purely about behaviour change. Yeah. Like they can sit and scale and whatever for [00:44:15] years. If they can’t get people to change their behaviour and I don’t know if there is or there [00:44:20] isn’t a module by now, today these days is it? Is there. I don’t know, I’m not sure. But actually forget [00:44:25] perio. Surely we are dealing with humans, dentistry. All of dentistry needs a psychology [00:44:30] course. Let’s be honest, right? I mean, at some level. So. So now you’ve got you’re developing this [00:44:35] platform now to sort of take you through a process of questions and answers [00:44:40] as far as the career pathway is that am I right? Yeah.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: So [00:44:45] explain to me, explain to me where’s it going? Let’s go with this. Ten years ago. Yeah. The problem was [00:44:50] the lack of information. Now there’s more information out there. Step one. So we’re [00:44:55] creating a system where first you go through a process where you figure out your challenges, [00:45:00] those challenges you type them in the AI system says picks [00:45:05] up the key stuff, points you to the right direction. These online tubules videos [00:45:10] will help. These courses will help. So, you know, we launched a partner section where [00:45:15] partners can list their courses on tubules. The third thing we’re now adding is partners will be able to add [00:45:20] external links as well. And so the whole course directory turns up. So this is your challenge. [00:45:25] These are the right courses for you right. Step one or step one and two. You [00:45:30] book those courses. You watch those tubules videos whatever. Just claim your CPD. Now [00:45:35] the system goes, okay, you’ve done your learning. Then it tells you where’s your portfolio. Now before [00:45:40] we go there, what questions is it asking? Is it literally saying are you comfortable doing it. No, it goes [00:45:45] deeper. What are your strengths weaknesses, resources? This and that? One step. Step two. You [00:45:50] send this form to your colleagues. Guys, give me a an assessment of me. Right. That’s cool. [00:45:55]

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Step three it sends this 360. It literally goes deeper. Not just questions. [00:46:00] Gather the data to collect all this information. Use that data [00:46:05] to now build the probabilities of your challenges. Okay, so then you direct them to videos, direct [00:46:10] them to courses. Keep going. Do the learning. What happens next? Records your CPD. Okay. You’ve done this [00:46:15] learning. It’s measuring your growth, right. You’ve figured your problem. You’ve learned. Step four build [00:46:20] a portfolio. What you’ve learned on that challenge. Where’s your portfolio to [00:46:25] show you’ve addressed it and then start again. So it’s a full cycle that keeps going. And [00:46:30] the idea is like you said, if you’re stuck in the same thing, you get bored. Yeah. This [00:46:35] helps you grow. This helps you push your barriers. Um, and that’s what we’ve done. So it makes your [00:46:40] entire growth process so much more Focussed, [00:46:45] directional, intentional because it’s taking you on a journey. You know what you’re improving [00:46:50] on, what you need to learn and how you’re going to measure that improvement before you start the process all over [00:46:55] again. And my thinking is, the more of these you do, you’re just going to go leaps [00:47:00] and bounds. The reason I can do it because I did it myself. When my personal growth happened, when I was [00:47:05] stuck, I was like, what’s the problem? Right? Where do I need to learn? What do I need to learn? How do I get better? Let’s [00:47:10] re-evaluate. And where are you at with it? Is it is it ready? It’s ready.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: It’s what’s it called? Stage testing. [00:47:15] Um, we’ve called it tubules. Everyone has a name. So the previous site was called Solaris when we brought on [00:47:20] the partner. So this is the whole new site. Whole new site. It’s got a massive eye because look, the [00:47:25] problem no longer it’s not just shortage of information. So many courses out there. Listen, the courses [00:47:30] are dime a dozen and people are going, how do I select the right course for me? Well, if we can make you a digital [00:47:35] mentor system, that’s going to help you, and hopefully the next stage then is going to be we’re going to be [00:47:40] training people, Um, as as I hate calling the word coach [00:47:45] as guides, so you could tap into one of those guides and say, help me through this process. Now we’re introducing [00:47:50] a certain level of mentorship into that certain member of guide ship into that. It [00:47:55] also feeds into companies and educators who go, actually so many people here putting [00:48:00] their challenges in. I better feed my course into that. We’re creating the pipeline. Educators [00:48:05] are creating the outlet for that pipeline. We’re connecting dentistry into a different growth area, and hopefully [00:48:10] everyone wins. That’s the process. Um, as a simple tool now, [00:48:15] I’ve spent a lot of time studying growth and how people progress and what [00:48:20] drives people and all the questions you said. So we thought, let’s build a platform that does that.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: So yeah, [00:48:25] it’s been a massive task five years in the building really. Um, five years in the building. We built the Sultaness, [00:48:30] which was just after Covid. That was the first stage, took the feedback from it, made [00:48:35] the mistakes, whatever. Now we’re building the next stage up. But I think that problem is wider. By the way, [00:48:40] it’s not just dentistry. That’s the first thing. Actually, even if you look at dentistry, right, your challenge [00:48:45] may be how do I grow my business? My challenge may be how the hell do I get my, um, my [00:48:50] my nurses motivated? Someone else’s challenge might be how do I do a certain clinical issue? [00:48:55] So everyone’s different. So everyone’s challenge is different. So one it it allows [00:49:00] a wider application. But that framework anybody can use it. [00:49:05] Right. It’s beyond industry. Everyone’s got challenges. Everyone put people to the right learning courses. [00:49:10] That fits the challenge. Just more powerful learning. So true. I get this question [00:49:15] all the time from young dentists right about I ask them what where do you see yourself in [00:49:20] five years time? Yeah. And none of them? No. None of them know and I [00:49:25] don’t I don’t know why I expect them to know, although there are some who do know. Right. Yeah, yeah. And I always whenever [00:49:30] someone says, hey, I want to be a endodontist or, you know, something, whatever they say [00:49:35] might say, I want to own 100 practices.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Yeah. When they know, I feel like they’re going to [00:49:40] accelerate way quicker to that, to that end. Yeah. And often [00:49:45] my advice has been just pick. Yeah. And you know, it kind of it’s [00:49:50] a bit weird because, hey, if my brain is an Indo brain and Indo was my calling. [00:49:55] Yeah. And I happen to pick period. But out of the bag then [00:50:00] have I done myself a disservice? And would I have been this amazing endodontist if I’d given myself enough time [00:50:05] to get exposed to it? But my question was, my question is in [00:50:10] that process of like becoming the dentist that you should be, is [00:50:15] it going to address something like that? Because it’s the most common question. It is. And [00:50:20] look my, my, there’s two things here. You know, Oprah, Oprah Winfrey who you know, she’s interviewed [00:50:25] millions of people. She said the ones who were the most successful knew where they were going. Right. So the acceleration [00:50:30] of the process. But I’ve gone the other way actually, I’ve told people don’t decide, especially as young dentists [00:50:35] don’t decide. The world’s your oyster. Tomorrow something happens. It’ll change your journey. Yeah. Go back and [00:50:40] think why you did industry in the first place, right? Because. Because intention, right is what’s going to [00:50:45] drive your goal. So before you even make a goal, what’s the purpose behind that goal? Right now [00:50:50] I’m not saying go and find your purpose because that doesn’t happen.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Purpose is too powerful a word, right? Your [00:50:55] cause is too powerful word. So you go a bit lighter and go, what do you enjoy? What’s your interest? [00:51:00] What’s the thing that kind of sparks you at this point in time? And someone might say, composite [00:51:05] spark me. Someone might say, actually, none of this sparks me. What I really enjoy is teaching. Whatever it [00:51:10] is, I go, okay to teach. What do you need to do? I need to speak. Yeah. [00:51:15] Do you think you need cases? Yeah. What do you want to teach? Why? Just ask those interesting [00:51:20] questions. Because. Follow your interest. Um, Angela Duckworth [00:51:25] in grit said you don’t find a passion. You foster a passion about fostering passion. [00:51:30] What happens is you find things you enjoy. And because you enjoy it, you suddenly go deeper into it, [00:51:35] because you go deeper into it, and you realise actually this is more fun, something else isn’t fun, [00:51:40] and you start getting more and more honed down and exploring that, and suddenly you find something [00:51:45] that lights your spark. Listen, I didn’t just end up in Peru, I enjoyed surgery, I wanted to do Max. Somebody [00:51:50] went, you got to do medicine. I said, Jesus, I’ll be 52 when I’m a consultant. Not really want to do that. [00:51:55] Let me do perio surgery. I didn’t know it was going to be the one where I get the best time to talk to patients [00:52:00] and behaviour change.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: I mean, it was there, but that was. And then it just happened. When more and more perio I did, [00:52:05] I went, this is fun man. I’m enjoying this interaction and I think young dentists need to do that. If you [00:52:10] don’t enjoy it, leave it for now. Find something you enjoy. Find a practice you enjoy. [00:52:15] You don’t enjoy this practice. Take a step back. Go and try something else. Go into hospital. Do a decent job. [00:52:20] Some of them may be able to. If you can take six months out, go and do volunteering. You know whatever. [00:52:25] Just explore, have fun and [00:52:30] you’ll find out what lights your spark. You know what’s the thing that sparks you your boat [00:52:35] and then just take go with it. Um, and let’s not rush things. You know, 40 [00:52:40] years of your career, did you know you were going to start a company when you graduated as a dentist? No. [00:52:45] Yeah. And you certainly ended up in that journey, you know? Um, yeah. Did I know [00:52:50] I was going to launch tubules? No, I knew I wanted a website. I enjoy having a website. Honest to God, [00:52:55] that’s the fun part. But look where I am. And sometimes you just got to do that. Yeah, I think. [00:53:00] Tell me about the. You know, the reason you’re sitting here now is because you called me to get Tom [00:53:05] Young’s number. You were looking at Tom Young’s. We’ve [00:53:10] had him on the podcast, actually.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: He was a very promising young dentist. And then one day [00:53:15] just decided to leave. And drew was interested in that pivot and [00:53:20] the the thoughts around the pivot. What got you thinking about pivoting? This [00:53:25] a very thought a few years ago when I sort of thought, why does tubules exist? [00:53:30] What’s the problem I’m trying to solve? You know, it goes back to that it [00:53:35] was me first who? You know, when I reached the existential crisis, I asked myself, what’s the problem here? [00:53:40] What’s the thing that I’m trying to solve for myself and was finding something that fulfils me? [00:53:45] I went to tubules, thought, what’s the problem we’re trying to solve here? And I suddenly [00:53:50] realised, we’re helping people grow. We want people to get better. Don’t just take box CPD. Well, [00:53:55] if that’s the case and you want people to grow, then the first thing we’ve got to do is help people find out, [00:54:00] you know, what’s the issue they’re going through, what’s the problem they want to solve, where they want to grow, how are they converting [00:54:05] their obstacles into opportunity? And that pivot made me think that [00:54:10] actually, the base of all of this doesn’t begin from getting good at something. [00:54:15] The base of all of this goes from, what’s the issue I’m trying to address? What’s the obstacle I’m trying to [00:54:20] convert into an opportunity took me into the journey of Nokia and Apple. [00:54:25] I’m not reading into detail, you know, in 2007, nor was it early [00:54:30] 2007.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Nokia was the top company in the world. Nokia [00:54:35] had sales of billions around the world, right? Apple [00:54:40] turned up with an iPhone, and when the iPhone first iPhone launched, people were laughing [00:54:45] at it. They were saying it’s cheap components in that it didn’t have half the functions. It didn’t even have [00:54:50] MMS messaging. Four years later, Nokia [00:54:55] went bust. Apple was driving. The basic question was, Apple said, what’s [00:55:00] the problem we’re solving user experience. Nokia was going, how can [00:55:05] we build a better phone? A better phone? You know, make more features in it. That was interesting. [00:55:10] Fuji and Kodak right. At some point they were selling film. [00:55:15] Kodak went bust. Fuji grew. That was case study. I then went to individual [00:55:20] case studies which were asked Holmes number. Dentistry is in a place now where they’re trying to get [00:55:25] let’s make dentistry better. Let’s just keep going with the dental problem. Dental problem? How [00:55:30] can I do my composites ten times better? 20 times better? But actually, [00:55:35] nobody’s asking what’s the exact base problem we’re trying to solve here? As an issue in psychology [00:55:40] called cognitive entrenchment, you get entrenched into what you do. You get entrenched, so entrenched [00:55:45] into it you don’t want to lose it. So you try and get deeper into that skill. You build that skill deeper and [00:55:50] deeper and deeper. That’s exactly what Kodak and Nokia did. Sometimes you got to step back and go, actually, do [00:55:55] I need to pivot? Do I need to rethink as part of growth? People [00:56:00] are forgetting that now.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Part of this process of figuring your challenge, learning and growing, [00:56:05] is that it’s like, stop just thinking. You need to become better [00:56:10] and better and better at something deeper and deeper. First step back, read. [00:56:15] You know, evaluate. What are you trying to figure out here now? Tom Youngs. [00:56:20] He said he saw this dentist very successful doing really well [00:56:25] in terms of their career. He said. But when I saw him, he [00:56:30] was always not happy. And that’s what he didn’t want. Now, I don’t know if Tom kind of [00:56:35] wants that not out there, but I’ll tell it anyway that that’s what made him change. You know, he was [00:56:40] very talented, but he realised the problem he was trying to solve was in dentistry. [00:56:45] That’s the pivot we talk about every now and then. You kind of can’t keep following the same [00:56:50] journey. Dentistry has got this thing. You graduate, you do your DCT job, you’re then going to practice. [00:56:55] So you get specialised. What should I become? An endodontist? The conversation we’ve had, I’m sort of stopping [00:57:00] and going, don’t follow that linear path. The world is changing at a rapid rate. The plans you make [00:57:05] for tomorrow might be defunct in 24 hours, right? You’ve got to be [00:57:10] able to be adaptable. Flexible. The only way you can do that is you go one step down and go, [00:57:15] what’s the actual obstacle I’m trying to overcome here? That’s the kind of pivot journey that I’m [00:57:20] looking at, and I think people need that more.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: So I did this whole talk, um, on [00:57:25] it, trying to tell people if you continue deepening your skill, [00:57:30] it’s called static growth. If you widen your skills and build a breath [00:57:35] and then deepen some of them, that’s dynamic growth. Dynamic growth makes [00:57:40] you more adaptable for this rapid, changing, unpredictable world. [00:57:45] That’s where winners are born. That’s my thought process there. Interesting. I [00:57:50] mean, what I remember the most from my conversation with Tom [00:57:55] was, and even not my podcast conversation, my actual conversation [00:58:00] when he said he’s leaving dentistry, I was I was pretty, even though I left dentistry myself. And that’s why [00:58:05] he kept on saying. He kept saying, well, you left. Why? Why are you telling me not to? Um, the [00:58:10] I felt like it was a shame. Too early. Too early. Um, but [00:58:15] the thing that stood out for me was he was saying, as a dentist, the [00:58:20] better job you do, the less money you make. [00:58:25] And we all know we’ve seen so many different models, right? [00:58:30] That doesn’t have to be like that. Doesn’t have to be like that. But he had a certain point here [00:58:35] that if you really make sure that rubber dam is stuck on properly and you have to then go [00:58:40] around three times and make sure it’s all proper, or when you when you put that matrix [00:58:45] on to be 100% sure that it’s correctly positioned, you know, [00:58:50] in, in every way, you know, you if you take care of the polishing the distal side [00:58:55] of that seven composite.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, risk cutting [00:59:00] the guy’s cheek to, to get the polish just right. Yeah. Yeah. The more [00:59:05] you obsess on on the work, the fine, the less [00:59:10] the longer it takes. Yeah. And hence the less money you make. And [00:59:15] and we know I know it’s not exactly linear in that way because, you know, Basil [00:59:20] takes care of all of that stuff. Mizrahi. And he makes good money, I’m sure. [00:59:25] Yeah. So you can set it up so that you know, your hourly rate and all that. But there is. It’s [00:59:30] real. There is that. Yeah. I think it depends on, um. It depends. Of course [00:59:35] it depends on your standard. You know, that’s one important thing to note. Yeah. But once you have a certain [00:59:40] standard, you find the people who value that standard. Right. And I think that’s [00:59:45] the thing you got to think. And the trust thing you were talking about, trust the people. If people can feel that that’s the guy [00:59:50] you are, then word of mouth goes berserk, prices go up and so on. You know, and was [00:59:55] it Joe Buck once said, right. He said, he kind of said that, uh, you’re either worth what you’re [01:00:00] paid or you’re paid what you’re worth.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: You know, and I think that’s the key. I’ve [01:00:05] realised one interesting thing over the last few years, um, or thought about interesting [01:00:10] thing is that does the market determine your price, [01:00:15] or does your value determine the market that comes to you? [01:00:20] You know, I don’t know the answer, but that’s probably [01:00:25] something we need to think about here. I think we as a [01:00:30] as a profession in the UK, we do undervalue our time. Hugely, [01:00:35] hugely. And it’s weird. I mean just imagine there’s a non dentist listening to this. And it could be any [01:00:40] number of people can listen to this pod and imagine a member of the public listening to this and says what. [01:00:45] These dentists are driving around in Ferraris now are talking about undervaluing their time, [01:00:50] but it’s real compared to other countries, I find. Yeah, I [01:00:55] think the NHS is a big part of that. Yeah. Um, we definitely [01:01:00] do undervalue our time. But that goes back to what we talk about. The public don’t know what we do [01:01:05] because we’ve never built that trust properly. Right. If they understood that we’re looking after [01:01:10] their health and they understood what we’re doing, and the finesse will help them keep their teeth for the next ten [01:01:15] years, 20 years. All of that, they suddenly go, actually, they’re looking after us. [01:01:20] But instead, what do we do? Listen. Rent alert. But what do we do? We go and self-harm. [01:01:25] The greatest. Give me an award.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Right. All these awards things. Listen, I’m. I might have publicly said it. You’re [01:01:30] not a big fan of the awards, are you? I’m not a fan at all. Because growth. I believe in growth. Growth needs. The first [01:01:35] step of growth is humility. Award doesn’t build humility, right? I’m not a big fan, [01:01:40] but beyond that, we have to stop Self-congratulating [01:01:45] and start going out there and telling the public, we’re in your interest, right? This [01:01:50] is what it is. A patient member of the public walks into a Dental event. [01:01:55] They need to feel these guys are working in my interest. They [01:02:00] care about me. So they go to an educational event, go look at these dentists. They want to get better so [01:02:05] they can look after me. Better not look at these dentists. Look at them. I can’t find a dentist. And they’re busy [01:02:10] here in their black ties, congratulating each other for having the best. Whatever. That’s the first thing. [01:02:15] Second thing is, you can’t compare this stuff, right? Like you can’t compare it. [01:02:20] How do I judge the best when the rules of the game are so vague? Usain Bolt’s the best [01:02:25] runner in the world. Or was the best runner in the world. Because they all had the same starting point. They [01:02:30] had the same ending point. The track was the same. Everything was comparable. Other than Usain Bolt, [01:02:35] as a runner, that’s your ability to judge the best. You can’t do that.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Patients [01:02:40] are variable. Every individuals variable. How do you judge that. So [01:02:45] you can judge it fairly. Is that what you mean you can’t judge. You can’t judge it fairly. Of [01:02:50] course not. Of course not. No. So it’s a bit. Anyway, that’s my job. [01:02:55] It’s a bit misleading, but I think we just got to have that faith in the public. The public trust in [01:03:00] us. You’re famously. I mean, last time I spoke to you, you said similar things about a [01:03:05] war. You don’t like awards. Let’s face it. Um, fine. Um, what else grinds your gears? Come on. We [01:03:10] should have a section of the pod to say what grinds your gears? What pisses you off? Yeah. What pisses you [01:03:15] off about dentistry? You just really listen. The other thing that really drives me nuts. Yes, [01:03:20] you’ve already said we don’t value ourselves. We don’t value our teams. Yeah, [01:03:25] right. I mean, there’s a nursing shortage out there that gets me to. And everyone goes, oh, this, that. My business [01:03:30] can’t pay nurses, for God’s sake. They are the key members of your [01:03:35] team. Yeah. And if you think can’t pay them, build a value for what you do in dentistry so you can reward [01:03:40] them better because your team are a winner. It grinds me. And this is what I said earlier. Practice owners go [01:03:45] like crazy to Dental courses. Yeah. You sit down and go, how many leadership courses do you go to? How many [01:03:50] people management courses do you go to? How many psychology courses do you ultimately leading teams [01:03:55] is management right.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Oh yeah. But that soft skills. Oh come on you want [01:04:00] to lead a team. You want to build an environment. Step one look after your team. Second [01:04:05] thing, stop thinking dentistry. Start building your trust in patients. Those two changes [01:04:10] might just create that value in dentistry where people sit down and go, [01:04:15] These guys looking after me, I’m going to pay them more. You know my thank you story right where [01:04:20] I. So look, let’s go back ten years. Right. Sorry. Not [01:04:25] ten hundreds of years back. Okay? You used to. You were a farmer. You used to grow potatoes. I was [01:04:30] a farmer. I used to grow corn. So what happened is, uh, I [01:04:35] needed some potatoes. I said, I’ll give you some corn in exchange. Barter. Third guy [01:04:40] comes in, he wants some potatoes, but he goes, I haven’t got any corn to give you. Go, right, [01:04:45] give me some coins instead. So he gave you coins when I was [01:04:50] giving you my corn as a barter. It was my thank you. When [01:04:55] you gave him good potatoes, he gave you coins as a way of saying thank you. [01:05:00] Money is nothing other than a way of saying thank you. So if you [01:05:05] build value in somebody, if somebody feels like genuinely you’ve cared about them, they’ll [01:05:10] be much more grateful. And the way they say thank you is by paying you thank [01:05:15] you notes.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: So now I go to the supermarket. When I do a shop, instead of saying this, I go, I’m just [01:05:20] paying with my card to give them some thank you dollars. That’s a different way of thinking it is now. You [01:05:25] think like that and go. How many patients will genuinely say thank you by paying their bill because [01:05:30] you’ve looked after them? How many nurses will thank you and give you more effort because you’ve looked [01:05:35] after them? Why can’t we change that? That’s a bugbear for me because stop thinking about yourself and your small [01:05:40] dentistry and the nursing side. The nursing side does piss me off to you, right? The [01:05:45] disrespect that some nurses are treated. Yeah. The disrespect, [01:05:50] the lack of progression. Yeah. [01:05:55] In in the DCP side and some, some practices are great at it. [01:06:00] Yeah. They genuinely enjoy seeing the trainee nurse become a nurse, become [01:06:05] a senior nurse, become a treatment coordinator, become practice manager, go and get radiography qualification, [01:06:10] oral health qualification. Go on and become a hygienist, then become a dentist. You [01:06:15] know, like some practices. Love that. But a lot of guys I come across. [01:06:20] And by the way, back to the flipping the burger analogy, there [01:06:25] is a type of person who doesn’t want to progress, you know, wants to come in, do their day [01:06:30] and leave and leave. Yeah. As a nurse, I mean, but but you know, some, some, some [01:06:35] dentists are looking for that character, the kind of character who doesn’t want to be paid any more [01:06:40] and ambitious and all of that.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: I’m cool with that, too. What I’m uncool with [01:06:45] is the hierarchy and disrespect that we see a lot of a lot. But [01:06:50] but I’m going to sort of go the other way. If somebody says that I just want to do my day job, my [01:06:55] job as a leader, inspire them to deliver is to inspire them to find what lights the spark. [01:07:00] Right? Yeah. You’re no longer a dentist once you’re a practice owner. Yeah. You are [01:07:05] a leader. And if somebody’s spark is not being lit by what you do, help them find [01:07:10] that spark. Now. How are you going to do that if you don’t have leadership skills, knowledge, all [01:07:15] of that sort of stuff? So it becomes even more important. And I just feel that [01:07:20] as humans, that’s the basic thing we can do is how can we make someone’s life better [01:07:25] day in, day out? How can we listen if somebody’s not happy, they go home to work. They’ve [01:07:30] used up all their emotional energy at work and they go home. Sorry to their to their family. [01:07:35] That person is going to be stressed. What impact does that have on someone’s family? Your job isn’t giving [01:07:40] someone a job. If you’re a leader, your job is to make sure their life is better. That’s [01:07:45] actually I don’t know if it’s a privilege or a huge responsibility, but that’s me.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: It’s both, [01:07:50] isn’t it? That’s the way I see things. It’s not the easiest job. I’d love to continue the work grinds what [01:07:55] grinds Drew’s gears about perio. Well, listen, what grinds my gear is about perio. [01:08:00] Not enough people think it’s interesting. Listen, man, everyone thinks it’s gum gardening. [01:08:05] The truth is, every course I run, people go is fun because it’s quite exciting. This link between perio [01:08:10] and systemic disease. That’s the association. They’ve been talking about it for 30 years. Exciting. Yeah. Exciting [01:08:15] in that this is the way a lot of dentists are talking about this. Like making the diabetes better by making the [01:08:20] perio better. Yeah. That that way of, you know, affect disease, lifestyle, [01:08:25] you know. So interesting. And but what grinds me. Yeah. What grinds you is that, is that what people [01:08:30] are interested in? Make it exciting. You know, when you know the good guys, the [01:08:35] bad guys. I thought I saw some exciting stuff. Interesting stuff that you said about politics. What grinds your gears about politicians [01:08:40] and politics? Everything. It pisses me off. Listen, man, they make more [01:08:45] promises than deliveries, man. Come on. That’s their day. That’s their job. I don’t think so, man. Come on. Be a [01:08:50] bit more respectful. Just listen. If the money’s running out, just say, look, the money’s running out. Can’t do anything. Um. [01:08:55] I genuinely feel that public trust in politics is probably not at [01:09:00] an all time low.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Not just in the UK, globally. Right. People think politicians are insensitive [01:09:05] to the public. That’s where we’ve got to. Right? Over the years, I’ve got a controversial view on it. Yeah. Tell me. [01:09:10] What do you think? I think politicians should be paid way, way more money. Like much more money. Like, [01:09:15] if you’re an MP, you’re one of 600. Yeah. You should be paid many times [01:09:20] more than a hospital consultant. Yeah. Put a figure £500,000. [01:09:25] Yeah. Prime minister? I’d say 2 million. £3 million? Yeah. What [01:09:30] I’m saying is, if you’re a top brain who’s just come out of Oxford PPE, whatever. Yeah. And your [01:09:35] choice is Morgan Stanley or JP Morgan, whatever. You know banks? Yeah. [01:09:40] If you’re talented enough, you should think, hey, I’m going to go become an MP and it’s not going to [01:09:45] affect my income. Yeah. Number one. Number two, you pay them 60 [01:09:50] grand or whatever they get paid. Yeah. Now they’re going to have to be corrupt in order [01:09:55] to run a life. Yeah. So you’re not have to be. But that’s ridiculous. They’re much [01:10:00] more incentivised. They’re incentivised to corruption. And I come [01:10:05] from Kenya. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. Politicians are paid more than politicians [01:10:10] anywhere in the world, I think. Oh, really? Really? Last time I looked, it’s still corrupt. They’re [01:10:15] paid like equivalent of, I can’t remember millions of dollars in that country. Millions of dollars plus salaries [01:10:20] or salary.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: When they get benefits, then they can buy for four wheel drive. You know, big Land Cruisers [01:10:25] here, the petrol there. Guess what? It’s still not great. So listen, [01:10:30] I grinds my boat, I think. Look, once you’re put in a position of responsibility as a leader, [01:10:35] this is all back to leadership. Yeah. You really realise servant leadership is the way [01:10:40] you know. And the minute you become self-serving and start thinking about yourself, you’re no longer serving. [01:10:45] You’re put in that position to do other stuff, right. Simon Sinek talks about Leaders Eat last. [01:10:50] That’s the cultural issue we have globally. And the reason they probably do that is because [01:10:55] part of it is, well, if I don’t, um, make what’s it called, populist [01:11:00] policies, I’m not going to be voted in. Right. Saying the truth is not going to help everybody, [01:11:05] right? People are going to go, Jesus, if I give my kid some candy, take it away from [01:11:10] him. That guy’s going to call me nasty, right? That’s the challenge we’ve had. How do you change [01:11:15] that? I don’t know. I think you could pay them 500 grand, but those who are inclined [01:11:20] to be corrupt are still going to be corrupt. What can we do to change that? I don’t know, change [01:11:25] a culture change. I think it all comes from education. But, you know, like, maybe I’m being oversimplistic [01:11:30] about this year where we had two people to choose from and both were terrible.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: And [01:11:35] like recently, Trump or Biden. Yeah. Who knows about Harris? Yeah, but Trump or Biden? Boris [01:11:40] or Jeremy? What was his name? Corbin. Corbin. Yeah. Like. Like [01:11:45] Boris or Corbin. Like two awful choices. Trump or Biden. Two awful choices. And [01:11:50] okay, we can we can go into the sort of sociopolitical sort of conspiracy [01:11:55] side of that, too, right? Um, but very simplistically, [01:12:00] great people don’t want to be politicians. Yeah, maybe. Maybe I’ve just come [01:12:05] down to the pay. And there’s so much more to it than the pay. Yeah, it’s a tough job, right? It’s [01:12:10] a the pressure, the public. I mean, and to say the truth isn’t easy. Now it’s [01:12:15] complex. There’s no right answer to anything, right? I mean, the complexity is a very interesting phenomenon [01:12:20] in itself. I’ve just finished a book called Embracing Complexity. Um, you read that and you go, wow, [01:12:25] you know, there’s so many factors and you can never make everyone happy. Tough job. That tough job to [01:12:30] to play that middle ground. And I think the more pressure going on a lot of people going [01:12:35] I can’t be arsed with this. Um, you know, someone like Obama handled so many different facets [01:12:40] so well. I respect the guy. He’s he’s a good communicator. He was a good orator, all of that. We [01:12:45] need to develop more people like this. So I suppose I, you know, I complain about leadership in dentistry, [01:12:50] but actually this leadership issue is a global phenomenon.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: We’re getting bold leaders, [01:12:55] by the way. There’s dental politics too, right? Yeah, there’s all of that politics too. And [01:13:00] you know what? Leadership. Have you ever thought about that? You know what? You’re not interested. Not [01:13:05] really. Because what? Leadership is making sure [01:13:10] everyone’s sailing in the same direction. I said this in the first podcast. [01:13:15] I talked about Martin Luther King saying, I have a dream. Actually, it was a dream of everybody [01:13:20] there because everyone is looking at the same vision. Yeah. I think until [01:13:25] we don’t create that compelling vision as a profession, we’re going to be stuck because [01:13:30] we’re all rowing in different directions. You know, one person is rowing in this direction going, I want to build the best NHS [01:13:35] practice because I believe in the NHS and that elimination system. Another one is rowing in this [01:13:40] direction, going, I want to build a private practice because this one’s going this way. Going. I want to build a practice where [01:13:45] I become, I don’t know, Invisalign, platinum, whatever. You can’t build politics in that. You’ve [01:13:50] got to find a way to bring the whole profession together. It goes back to what I said. We’ve got to think [01:13:55] about the patient first. If any argument you put in front of me, Any [01:14:00] any reason you put in front of me? If your reason for doing stuff eventually [01:14:05] boils down to, it’s going to help that patient for the next long term.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: I think [01:14:10] when we are all thinking like that, I think we might have a better way to go through that. I [01:14:15] was talking about the other, you know, five years ago, ten years ago, I was talking about the fact that the BDA continued [01:14:20] to engage with the government and hoping they’ll pay more money. Ten years on, [01:14:25] we’re still. Same story. It’s not going to be any more money. It’s not going to be no money. So why [01:14:30] don’t we as a profession think, okay, I want to look after the patient. This [01:14:35] avenue isn’t going to work. This kind of growth isn’t going to work. This kind of journey isn’t going to work. Why [01:14:40] don’t we think about a different way? Why don’t we think outside the box? Another [01:14:45] example I give you, right. Few practices I know couldn’t recruit associates [01:14:50] on a percentage basis. We know that’s another problem in the industry. While we’re recording this, [01:14:55] they didn’t go for the conventional associate 45%, [01:15:00] and I have all the gimmicks and everything else. They went different. The the direction they took was [01:15:05] where great caring practice. Do you want to care for your patients? Come work for us as an apprentice. [01:15:10] As a salaried apprentice, yeah. 2 or 3 years of that built them [01:15:15] to the to what they needed for their practice in terms of the, the personality, [01:15:20] the work they do now, their associates and the practice owners say they’re flying. Now, maybe [01:15:25] we need to start thinking out of the box a bit more.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Um, and that sort of stuff that [01:15:30] only comes if you care enough for what you’re doing. And I put that out there. Right? People go, what the hell does he mean? [01:15:35] I care about somebody. You know what? When my kid says he wants something at [01:15:40] 3:00 at night, I’m knackered as hell sometimes and I’ll care enough to go. You [01:15:45] know what? I’ll go get it because it’s my kid. You know what I mean? Like, sometimes you go over and beyond. [01:15:50] Yeah. Of course. That’s when things change. I don’t know if that’s my bit anyway. Yeah. [01:15:55] I mean, this is such a broad spectrum of people, [01:16:00] right? Yeah. And, and and the question of the health of our profession [01:16:05] right now, I’d say it’s in some of the best state that it’s ever been [01:16:10] and some of the worst state at the same time, you know, because I mean, for [01:16:15] the first time ever, dentistry is on the news and everything, but for the wrong reason. It’s [01:16:20] it’s like access to NHS dentists. Uh, GA for [01:16:25] kids. Yeah, but it’s for the first time ever, it’s actually a bit on the political [01:16:30] agenda. And, hey, we get Nilesh and Rona and Simon and all these dentists on TV [01:16:35] talking, which didn’t used to be the case. Didn’t used to be the case ten years ago. Yeah. So we’re, [01:16:40] you know, we’re on it now for the first time ever.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: We’ve got I [01:16:45] kind of infiltrating from your perspective. There’s things [01:16:50] like Pearl, did you see the robot that made a filling on a patient? Right. I mean, we’re [01:16:55] seeing that. We’re seeing that. And no, none of us can really know where that’s going to go, [01:17:00] but it’s going to go in a in an interesting direction. And [01:17:05] I think like we get associates now young right out of people [01:17:10] who are saying, I want to work three days a week. Yeah. Yeah. Lifestyle kind of. [01:17:15] Yeah. The other two days I want to do what I want to do. Yeah. I want to do two days a week of [01:17:20] only a line. Bleach blonde. I’m a now. Yeah. Yeah. I bet you didn’t like that. Um, [01:17:25] but but I kind of like that. I kind of like the fact that actually, [01:17:30] we’ve got to a point where people can say that. Yeah. Yeah. And not everyone has to, [01:17:35] you know, work their butt off six days a week and break themselves. Yeah. In the [01:17:40] process. Yeah. It’s not for everyone, dude. Yeah. Like you said on the last pod, I remember you said you go to bed at 3 [01:17:45] a.m. and you wake up at 6 a.m.. Yeah. Yeah. Some level of obsession. Yeah. [01:17:50] But, like, it goes back to what I said. Everyone. Not for everyone. But until something doesn’t light your spark, you [01:17:55] might not do that, right? No, I agree, I agree.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Um, that’s one thing. Um, but the other side of the coin [01:18:00] is that dentistry, like you say, is in the best place. But yet 50% of the population [01:18:05] are not able to see a dentist. Now, the conversation here [01:18:10] is, is very interesting. Are they, you know, are they not able to see a dentist or are they not able to see an [01:18:15] NHS dentist? Now that’s a different conversation. Um, but but it’s a funny thing because [01:18:20] in this country, people have not saved up for their teeth. [01:18:25] Yeah. And there’s no insurance to help out. And there’s a there’s a sort of national [01:18:30] insurance, right. Yeah. So but in the US, people know that. I don’t know. I’ve got to save [01:18:35] up for college. I’ve got to save up for the kids braces or whatever. And it’s part of [01:18:40] the psyche. Everyone knows that. Yeah. Because everyone knows that jobs have [01:18:45] insurance that you can extend to your kids, dental insurance that you can [01:18:50] extend. That’s why people go for those jobs. I mean, I had a guy in one of our partners, our suppliers, [01:18:55] um, in the US, saying, the only reason I’m working in this company is. Well, no, the [01:19:00] reason why I’m happy working in this company is because the company my wife works in [01:19:05] gives us medical insurance for both of us, and I’m. I’m going to retire soon. What [01:19:10] I’m saying is that the setup. Yes. Is that way. So you can’t overnight here say, [01:19:15] hey, everyone should start saving for their teeth.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: But you can’t because the jobs don’t pay dental [01:19:20] insurance. People aren’t used to saving up for their teeth. So there has to be some sort of gradual [01:19:25] education piece. If there’s no more money coming from the government, of course, spend the money they’re sending [01:19:30] to us in a better way, in a more effective way. Maybe it’s a core service. Maybe [01:19:35] people have like vouchers they can take to any dentist that’s worth money or whatever [01:19:40] it is. Yeah, yeah. But understand that the setup in the nation [01:19:45] isn’t one it’s always been. Yeah. You know, but it’s not just dentistry, is it? It’s all of healthcare. [01:19:50] You know, at the moment, if you think about generally wider health. [01:19:55] Nhs has always been the primary provider. Yeah. If [01:20:00] that collapsed today, do we have an alternative service? No. There’s a hole in the middle. There’s. There are [01:20:05] private hospitals, but the limited number one, there’s not enough structures to do it. You’re right. It’s [01:20:10] going to take time, I suppose. And but we do have to accept that the NHS [01:20:15] is, is going to be limited. There’s no doubt about that. There’s no endless [01:20:20] pot. How we transform it is what we’ve got to think, you know. But also let’s put this in perspective [01:20:25] for dentistry. My wife is a neonatologist, right. She’s a neonatologist. [01:20:30] Newborn babies. Yeah. And I was I was sitting in a light-hearted manner.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: But [01:20:35] she comes home and goes, we lost a baby today. Now, I was I was about to tell her I lost a lower right first [01:20:40] molar, but it doesn’t make sense now. Right. And does not compare, you know. And that’s part of the dental challenge. [01:20:45] The dental challenge is it’s it’s it’s important. But in the wider perspective [01:20:50] of things, it’s critical. You know, it’s it’s we’re helping people [01:20:55] do things, but we’re not going to lose a life that easily. I mean, there’s [01:21:00] still risk, you know, someone gets a chlorine gas, all these jars on kids, right? And [01:21:05] so finding that balance is so important. Um, in the profession, I want to touch [01:21:10] on two other things. Yeah. Number one, why is this the last ever Congress that you’re [01:21:15] doing? Yeah. And are you going out with a bang? I mean, when I looked at [01:21:20] this, um, last, last year at the number of events you had [01:21:25] on in that one event. Man. Yeah. I could not believe [01:21:30] how big that that was. Um, so. So around the Congress. What’s [01:21:35] going on there? And the other one I want to touch on, I don’t know if you’re interested in touching on is, [01:21:40] uh, the race riots. Yeah. With your experience in Kenya? [01:21:45] Yeah. Do you want to talk about that or. No? Yeah. Let’s do one or the other first. To the [01:21:50] Congress? Yeah. Um, last year we had 600 delegates. Right. [01:21:55] Huge. Amazing.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: I think we have a changing market, a changing place. [01:22:00] And we spoke about this earlier. You know, how do people market courses? Or you say [01:22:05] we do CPD, we do this. Right. You can’t market the emotional aspect of an event. [01:22:10] That’s right. Now when people come to the Congress, they go out and [01:22:15] I get messages saying, drew, I’ve been to realised, you know, I’m walking on clouds. We change [01:22:20] someone’s spirit, we fix them. It feels like sometimes. But [01:22:25] the effort that goes into that is huge. Do you run 36 workshops? [01:22:30] 36 workshops. Man, that’s like bigger than BCD, [01:22:35] right? It’s bigger than a CD. It’s so it’s [01:22:40] so huge. And and you know in the package we give them workshops. [01:22:45] We give them top global lecturers DDC or whatever, Joanna or whoever. [01:22:50] We give them accommodation, we put some serious parties there. [01:22:55] We put a tubular. Foundation event ave to the top level, Ave to the top [01:23:00] level. You’ve seen the stage. It’s a beautiful process. All of that is [01:23:05] for the people who come there. I want to make sure they don’t just go with knowledge. [01:23:10] I want to make sure they go with some inspiration. If I could bottle that, I’d sell [01:23:15] it, you know, that sort of thing. But also, there’s also scientific if you inspire someone to learn more. But [01:23:20] what I’m beginning to find is getting harder and harder. Yeah, there’s people don’t want to invest [01:23:25] in that sort of thing in dentistry anymore.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: They want to go course, learn something and go home. [01:23:30] It goes back to if you don’t care enough to feel inspired, you’re going to be in a difficult place. And [01:23:35] I think the profession is losing its soul at some level. And so I felt we need [01:23:40] to change things. Also, global dynamics running this event is getting more and [01:23:45] more expensive. Costs are rising. Cost of living for everyone is harder. So I understand [01:23:50] people can’t contribute to this. So we have to do things differently. Um it’s reached [01:23:55] its everything has a has a has an end at the end of the day. Events a funny cause funny [01:24:00] things here. Because because the the benefit is huge, right? There’s there’s nothing [01:24:05] really like face to face, right? But nothing really is like. But from [01:24:10] a corporate, from a company perspective, the risk and pain of [01:24:15] the event. Yeah. Nowhere near reflects the profit. [01:24:20] Oh no, we don’t make profit on it. Yeah. So so so then I [01:24:25] imagine with you guys, you have to work two years ahead to book a year, right? Yeah. [01:24:30] You can’t book to DC the day after tomorrow. So when if you’re thinking [01:24:35] of like if someone’s thinking of an event in 2026. Yeah. Where you’re [01:24:40] having to take a massive risk on a venue, then you’re having to take a massive [01:24:45] trying to get speakers all the time. And so it’s two years of worry. Yeah. [01:24:50] Yeah.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: And but the return on it is undefinable in financial terms, [01:24:55] right? I mean, it’s a different return, whereas your core business [01:25:00] is not two years of worry. Every time you do something, you’re growing it. Yeah. I mean, look, there’s two types [01:25:05] of ROI. So the Congress. You’re right. The return on investment is uncertain. Yeah. [01:25:10] But the return on inspiration is always. And that’s the ROI, right? So. So that’s the key. [01:25:15] But I just feel we we’re changing. And look it goes back to what I said. The mark. There’s more courses [01:25:20] out there than ever. There’s more elements out there than ever. So rather than us building [01:25:25] events, we’d rather partner with other events. If we are creating a platform with all this AI [01:25:30] that helps somebody find their challenges, we can partner with events and pipeline people to them [01:25:35] and create, you know, let’s make a bigger pie. I’ve always said, rather than fight for the same pie. [01:25:40] So, so build a wider table, that sort of thing. So I think that’s where we want to go. Um, [01:25:45] that’s one of those thought processes. The other side is I think knowledge [01:25:50] has matured. So people now roughly know [01:25:55] the kind of knowledge they want. They want to go to those particular events, in which case [01:26:00] we can create niche events. Right. And take the tubules philosophy to Amsterdam, Barcelona, [01:26:05] you know, around the world. 32. Besides wanting to learn Dental business from [01:26:10] someone outside of dentistry, right? Let’s go to a different location [01:26:15] and enjoy it in that respect.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: So that’s the kind of thing we’re going to do if we’re going to do stuff [01:26:20] like that. Nice. But a lot of focus is about this dynamic growth. [01:26:25] I just want people to adopt it and grow and get better and better and better be better tomorrow [01:26:30] than you were yesterday. And if we can put someone in that cycle, it’s a mindset. It’s about [01:26:35] building that growth mindset where nobody stops. Listen, I’m a geek at heart. I’m a learner at heart. I’m [01:26:40] always learning. And I just want, you know, people to be thinking like that because [01:26:45] it’s only going to help them in, in this rapidly changing [01:26:50] world. To me, you’ve just identified what happens tomorrow cannot [01:26:55] be predicted. You have to be learning, preparing, thinking like that. Talking [01:27:00] about what happens tomorrow cannot be predicted. It’s exactly what happened in [01:27:05] the riots. Yeah, let’s talk about it. So, I mean, whenever anyone’s listening to this right [01:27:10] now, we’re in a stage where we just got out of a week of disturbance, [01:27:15] race related disturbance in the UK. I was actually in Spain and I [01:27:20] wasn’t paying much attention to the UK news. And I came back and I was like, what the hell’s going on here, man? [01:27:25] Now, with your history in Kenya, where, I mean, Kenya didn’t really [01:27:30] have as big a problem as some other places like Uganda and all that.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: But the understanding [01:27:35] for me, this question of whether or not these are being fanned by [01:27:40] conspiratorial, you know, all of that piece. Yeah. The social media piece is fanning [01:27:45] these things, misinformation and all that. For me, there’s almost [01:27:50] a discontent that doesn’t have a voice. It [01:27:55] got its voice in Brexit. Yeah. And essentially something about [01:28:00] um, overall, let’s face it, Brexit was about immigration overall. [01:28:05] Yeah. Something about sort of sort of, uh, people being told there’s national [01:28:10] myths, isn’t it? We tell ourselves the story, you know. And one of the stories that people have been told [01:28:15] here is, you know, we beat the Germans in the war and so on. Some of that in it. But that [01:28:20] itself is an immigration story. But what I’m saying is this voice needs needs an [01:28:25] amount of understanding and an amount of vocalising [01:28:30] rather than us sitting here saying, oh, that’s a bigot. Who’s done that? Yeah. All [01:28:35] right. Great. Yeah. What is it? What’s the actual concern that [01:28:40] that that that person to what we keep saying. What’s the real problem? The real what’s the real problem? The real problem. [01:28:45] And then the solution. So that’s that’s my view. So, so so that’s my thoughts on it. [01:28:50] If you what do you think? Go back to listening to Jonah Berger, a social psychologist [01:28:55] influence. He talks about influence and marketing. Yeah. He’s brilliant right. Catalyst. Very [01:29:00] good catalyst. Yeah. You know, when he talks about humans being a Brexit, that [01:29:05] was was um, the phrase of Brexit, uh, get Britain back [01:29:10] or something, right.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. And initially it was um, uh, just two words [01:29:15] and they said Dominic Cummings put this thing called get control, get control, get [01:29:20] back control. Yeah. He put the word back in between. Now humans are loss [01:29:25] averse. If you’ve got something and you lose it, you really feel bad by [01:29:30] saying get back control. What he made them do is what you’d lost. We’re going to get back. Now. That made [01:29:35] them feel good. Yeah. So if you think when I grew up in Kenya, there was a [01:29:40] lot of racism against people with, uh, brown [01:29:45] skin to say anything else, Indian origin. And that was because years [01:29:50] ago, Indian people came from India, settled in Kenya. A [01:29:55] lot of them were part of the business community thinking economically, built up massive [01:30:00] enterprises. So as a part of this was economic envy, because when [01:30:05] you’re on the breadline and someone’s you know really well, you don’t. And some of those Indians did not [01:30:10] treat the Africans with the respect they deserve. Right. And so it became a them [01:30:15] and us. Yeah. And only now, after years of all of this, people are realising, [01:30:20] actually these guys are part of our country. They’re contributing. And so only only about [01:30:25] ten years ago were the Indians recognised as the 53rd tribe of Kenya. [01:30:30] Right. So nearly eight years after after independence, they’ve [01:30:35] thought, oh, they’re a tribe.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: They’re one of us. How many years have Indians been going to Kenya? They were brought in 1898. [01:30:40] You’re kidding. To build a railway. Is that right? So there’s. You know, there’s 150 [01:30:45] year history. I didn’t realise they went back that far. Huge. But just think it took 140 [01:30:50] years for them to. Now when you look at the UK, there’s a group of people who’ve [01:30:55] always been here and now we have international people, largely [01:31:00] British Raj as well, you know, coming in. There’s always going to be that as humans, [01:31:05] as humans, we’re always going to feel threatened at one level and the second level, [01:31:10] we’re always going to be tribal. Yeah. Right. And if someone comes and takes over my tribe, I’m going [01:31:15] to feel a bit. And there is discontent, and we need to [01:31:20] sit down with people who are not content and say, what’s the issue here? How are you feeling? [01:31:25] Threatened. What’s the concern here? Well, make them feel safe. The concern [01:31:30] is number one here. I’m not getting any improvement [01:31:35] in my life. Yeah, but from from this globalism that’s come [01:31:40] about. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. And and you know at the end of the day if, if, [01:31:45] if you’re privileged enough to have gone to dental school. Yeah. You got some benefit [01:31:50] from the global system. Yeah. Whether it’s investment in the UK from Toyota in [01:31:55] Sunderland or whatever it was. Yeah. Like Britain got got better and you benefited [01:32:00] from it.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Yeah. A bunch of people didn’t. Yeah. A good portion of society didn’t [01:32:05] feel like they they got no benefit. Yeah. Now these guys are coming [01:32:10] over on the boats and being paid to stay in a hotel. Yeah. And think of [01:32:15] the poor guy. I mean, I think of two, two, three characters in particular. There’s number one. Yeah. [01:32:20] The guy who’s run away from Syria. Finally got himself to the UK in some boarding [01:32:25] house. That’s crap. Now he’s got people burning the place. You know, a lot [01:32:30] of the guys who died in Grenfell were Syrian refugees. Yeah. But number two character. [01:32:35] Yeah. Mohammed the Uber driver. Yeah. Who now has to worry [01:32:40] about every single passenger sticking a knife in his back? Yeah. And he’s still got to go to work and he still got [01:32:45] to pay his bills. And number three. Yeah. Kevin, the white van driver. [01:32:50] Poor guy. Who’s not a racist. Yeah. Who’s just a great guy. Has to now worry that [01:32:55] every time drew looks at him, he’s worried that he is a racist. Yeah. Because of his tattoos? [01:33:00] Yes. And the discontent that that breeds in a country that six months [01:33:05] ago had an Indian prime minister, for God’s sake. Yeah. Or Indian origin? Yeah. You know, his [01:33:10] parents came. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So it’s weird because I always thought of this country as a [01:33:15] massive success in multiculturalism, I still do. Still is.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Still is. I still do. But this spill-over, [01:33:20] we do need to create more integration and listening and order. [01:33:25] You know, I’ve always said so, you know, I was [01:33:30] an immigrant at some level, right? I came to this country as a student. But what really was interesting [01:33:35] was that everyone should listen to your story. Everyone should listen to the last episode, the last [01:33:40] episode, the last episode, which was tell me the the time 2019 2019. It was released in March [01:33:45] 2020. Um, yeah. But I think that the thing I think is so [01:33:50] important is by default, I was integrated into British community. [01:33:55] Yeah. By going to university, being exposed to different cultures, being exposed [01:34:00] to different people, working in that shopping centre, working in that shopping centre, you know, all that stuff [01:34:05] and selling burgers. And the real important part is these refugees [01:34:10] have come here, they’ve run away from some challenge and [01:34:15] they’re stuck in some hotel. Maybe we need to integrate them somehow and [01:34:20] integrate them, maybe with some of these people who are extreme racist. Now there’s a have you [01:34:25] ever heard of the Green Room? Israel and Palestine have a massive war at the moment, but the tensions have been for years. [01:34:30] I think it was called the Green Room as an experiment. It’s also in the catalyst. So ten [01:34:35] Israeli children and ten Palestine children were brought into a house to live together. [01:34:40] Now they started hating each other on day one. [01:34:45]

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Day two, they come down. One guy goes, listen, do you want some breakfast? And by [01:34:50] day ten they’re like, oh, they’re not as bad as I thought. Actually, they’re not the troublemakers. [01:34:55] We need to find methods of creating green rooms and social cohesion, [01:35:00] you know, because that’s where we understand that beyond someone’s colour and beyond [01:35:05] someone’s challenges is a human being who shares the same kindness, same [01:35:10] compassion, same emotions and same pain as me. Yeah. So the opposite of what [01:35:15] I’m afraid that the Tories did. Yeah. The I don’t know what they call [01:35:20] it a dog whistle or whatever, you know, like. Yes. The opposite of that. Yeah, [01:35:25] the opposite of populism and blaming everyone’s problems on on the. Do you [01:35:30] remember back in the day it was like single mums, single mums, they get the houses. [01:35:35] They’ve just got it. All you got to do these days have children and that’s what you get a house, you get a life. [01:35:40] The trauma. Yeah. That used to be the thing. There’s a labelling back then, back then, now it’s [01:35:45] become this. So what is the opposite? I think the opposite is dog whistling lecture. [01:35:50] How how humans. Yeah. How how do we do it? Me and you get it. Yeah. [01:35:55] Because we know 100 people who’ve been through that nightmare, and we know who they are. Yeah, but [01:36:00] politically, they need to create leadership of cohesion, I feel. And [01:36:05] the opposite of that is saying, listen, we’ve got someone here who’s come from a different country still, [01:36:10] you know, waiting for their refugee status to be verified.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: The asylum status, I don’t know what you call [01:36:15] it. Let’s go and show them something. Let’s show them what Britain’s about, right? As a country. [01:36:20] Um, and two people go there, right? Let’s say Kevin and, uh, whatever [01:36:25] the other example, maybe they go and talk to these guys. Ultimately, human barriers are broken [01:36:30] through conversation and meeting face to face. People have conversations go, wow, that’s interesting. [01:36:35] I mean, I’ll give you a perfectly different example, I suppose. Not perfect, but in [01:36:40] Kenya, um, there’s homophobia and it’s illegal to be gay. [01:36:45] Gay. And when I came to the UK, I didn’t know how to handle that. [01:36:50] I didn’t know how to handle that because of that, when I had gay friends and colleagues, [01:36:55] I didn’t know how to connect with them. Right. I moved to Welshpool and [01:37:00] one of the dentists worked. My practice was was a gay man who was nearly 50 [01:37:05] at that time. So he’s obviously faced those challenges growing up. And he was telling me all that changed [01:37:10] my entire perception. I suddenly saw her human being. And because you’ve been conditioned [01:37:15] in Kenya, I’ve had this before. I was in Dubai, I was talking to a taxi driver from Pakistan [01:37:20] and uh, he said, I came to Dubai and I realised the world’s a great place. He told [01:37:25] me that, um, when I was Abu Dhabi.

Dhru Shah/Payman Langroudi: Sorry, not Dubai, Abu Dhabi this year. So when I grew up in [01:37:30] Pakistan, they used to teach me that these people are the bad guys. And it’s like, if I saw one, I wanted [01:37:35] to kind of beat them up. He said, I come here and I realise actually we’re all humans. You know, at the [01:37:40] end of the day, I think there’s a lot to be said for social integration, so don’t put dog [01:37:45] whistles, people. Instead, try and connect them together. The more we create human connections, [01:37:50] I just think we’re going to break more barriers down because we realise that yes, your beliefs are different to me, [01:37:55] but you’re a nice person. We can choose to disagree while [01:38:00] still agreeing that we’ll look after each other. What a good place to be that would be. We’ve come [01:38:05] to the end of our time. I know it’s been great. We’ve taken loads of conversations. I’ve really enjoyed it. I always [01:38:10] enjoy talking to you man, and I’m really happy I had you on again. Um, massive, [01:38:15] massive. Good luck with the new site. Thank you. And, uh, let’s have you on in another five [01:38:20] years? Yeah. 20, 28, I’ll tell you. See you in the Cayman Islands. In the Cayman Islands? [01:38:25] Yes. Will enlighten. And tubules may have been bought by the same investor by then or something, [01:38:30] right? No. It’s always fun to see great stuff. So thank you. Lovely to see you, my buddy. Thanks. [01:38:35]

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [01:38:40] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:38:45] Your hosts Payman Langroudi [01:38:50] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, [01:38:55] you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually [01:39:00] sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m [01:39:05] assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [01:39:10] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it [01:39:15] too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

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