Payman Langroudi: Were you this person before the abuse? And then you found I lost [00:00:05] myself, I lost me.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Yeah. Yeah. And this is what I said to my life coach. [00:00:10] I need to find myself back again. I need to find that girl [00:00:15] who, at eight years old, believed in herself. I need to find her [00:00:20] back again. And so one day, he did this thing where he said [00:00:25] to me, think back to when you were eight years old, and remember that girl. [00:00:30] Remember how she wasn’t afraid of anything. Remember how she dared do things. [00:00:35] Remember. Remember that girl? Oh my gosh. I cried for like two weeks [00:00:40] because I remembered that girl who was [00:00:45] like, not afraid, who was positive. Yeah. And I thought, I’ve got to get [00:00:50] that girl back.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:55] is Dental Leaders The podcast [00:01:00] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:01:05] hosts Payman Langroudi [00:01:10] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Davinia [00:01:15] Laverne Iswaran onto the podcast, otherwise known as Coco, to the wider [00:01:20] dental community, someone who’s had a tumultuous career, [00:01:25] if you want to look at it that way. But for me, someone who’s come out the other end of it, [00:01:30] one of the most positive people I’ve come across, and so you’re a real enigma to me. So [00:01:35] that’s that’s why that’s why I asked you to come onto the pod. Lovely to have you.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Thank you for having [00:01:40] me here. Payman.

Payman Langroudi: I tend to with these things. I [00:01:45] tend to go into the backstory and all that. But [00:01:50] I do want to ask a question first, because if I don’t ask it, then I’ll be waiting to ask the [00:01:55] question throughout and it’ll just put me off here that this this [00:02:00] positivity that you’ve got. Right. That you project. Is [00:02:05] the projection of positivity as important to you [00:02:10] as self-care that comes from it? Because I feel like you really [00:02:15] do. Like you’re on a mission to change other people.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): It is absolutely hand on [00:02:20] my heart. My mission is to want to look [00:02:25] at my own life in a positive light, and you can always find positivity [00:02:30] in a negative situation. Yeah. Um, and also to spread happiness [00:02:35] and to spread that joy, you know, like, just imagine you go into the [00:02:40] surgery, um, and you’re grumpy, and then you pass on your grumpiness [00:02:45] to the next person, and then they go home, then they like, let’s say it’s your nurse. She goes [00:02:50] out, she shouts at the receptionist, and the receptionist shouts at the patient. And then it’s kind of snowballed.

Payman Langroudi: It’s infectious [00:02:55] in the same way as positivity is.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): That’s right. So it’s so important to [00:03:00] pass on that. It’s it’s like, you know, light a candle and pass it on. That’s [00:03:05] how I think of it. Um, and it it’s like it helps [00:03:10] you like your light and happiness will [00:03:15] reflect on other people. And then when they come into your aura, they then [00:03:20] take that on and pass it on. And is it a muscle?

Payman Langroudi: Like, is it something that [00:03:25] because some people are very good at being negative. Yeah. That’s that’s their skill. [00:03:30] Almost like they can find what they don’t like about something and, and talk about that in [00:03:35] a, I don’t know, call it a funny way for the sake of the argument. And then if you say to that person, listen, you’re spreading [00:03:40] negativity, which she is or he is, yeah, well be positive. That person’s not very [00:03:45] good at being positive. They’re good at being negative. So so do you find that being positive [00:03:50] itself is a is a muscle that can be trained?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): It can be. It can be. So [00:03:55] for example, if I say to you, Payman spot the red cars on the street, [00:04:00] right?

Payman Langroudi: Look out for those.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): So you’ll be looking out for the red cars. Yeah. Whereas if I say to you. Okay. Payman [00:04:05] spot the yellow cards on the street, and then you’re suddenly looking at all sunshine and happiness. [00:04:10] Yeah. Right. So that’s how I think of as positivity in life. I’m looking [00:04:15] for the gems every day, and at the end of every day I sit there and I think, right, what [00:04:20] were my gems today? And then just, you know, and.

Payman Langroudi: In a bad [00:04:25] situation you’re thinking, what’s the positive that I can get from this?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): What have I learnt from this? What are [00:04:30] the good things that I’ve learnt from this? You know, and life has thrown me some big curveballs, [00:04:35] but yet I still I’ve kind of turned it around. I don’t want [00:04:40] to let myself be dragged down by that, um, you [00:04:45] know, by my past, my whatever has happened to me, I just [00:04:50] want to just move on and, um, you know, just [00:04:55] take the lessons I’ve learned from that and then just.

Payman Langroudi: Spread the joy. Yeah. [00:05:00] Let’s get to your backstory. You grew up in Singapore?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Yes, I [00:05:05] did. So I had a lovely childhood growing up in Singapore. And at the age of [00:05:10] eight, my dad said to me, write if you can top the school year, I’ll [00:05:15] let you go to England on a school holiday. And so I was like, right, I’m [00:05:20] going to do this. So we had 50 kids in a class. So this is, you [00:05:25] know, far eastern culture, loads of kids packed in a classroom. And there were [00:05:30] two classrooms. And I thought, okay, I’m seriously going to get down to this and do it [00:05:35] every year. I’d be sort of like in the top 5 to 10 kids, [00:05:40] but never, never the top kid.

Payman Langroudi: Must be tough in Singapore.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): It is.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:05:45] is tough in Singapore.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Especially Asian parents. Exactly right. So [00:05:50] I put my head down to it and I came second and I [00:05:55] thought, why did I become second? Why did I not get the top spot? And I thought, now my [00:06:00] dad’s not going to let me go, whatever. And he said, let me see your papers. Let me see where [00:06:05] you lost this mark from in my Mandarin. Top marks in my English, top [00:06:10] marks in my maths. I got 49 out of 50. And the kid who got the [00:06:15] top spot got 50 out of 50. And I thought, what did I do wrong? And my dad’s looking [00:06:20] at this paper and I’m like, dad, she’s marked this thing wrong. And it was like, join the [00:06:25] dots, for example, from 0 to 100, right? So I joined the dots from 0 [00:06:30] to 100 and made, let’s say. And they said, what is this picture? What’s this picture you’ve [00:06:35] drawn? So I said what it was, let’s say it was a spaceship. Yeah. And then I [00:06:40] got 49 out of 50 and I thought, what’s wrong with it? Because I didn’t join [00:06:45] the 100 to the zero. And I was like, dad, they didn’t tell me to join the 100 to the zero, [00:06:50] did they?

Payman Langroudi: You mean you followed the instructions to.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Follow the instructions? It said. Because [00:06:55] I did toy with it and think the picture looks incomplete. Should I go from there? But have you.

Payman Langroudi: Not seen [00:07:00] the Richard Branson version of The Apprentice? Have you seen that one? No. There’s [00:07:05] a Branson version. It’s not The Apprentice. It’s called, like, Rebel Billionaire or something. [00:07:10] Maybe it didn’t work and they didn’t do many episodes of it. But I watched this thing, and he’s got this. When it gets [00:07:15] down to the last three, he puts them all in this boat thing and [00:07:20] they buckle up and he says, we’re going to go over the Niagara Falls together. And so [00:07:25] they all do it. And then just just before they sort of count down, just before they count down, [00:07:30] that one of the ladies says, I can’t do this, I’m not doing this. And she gets up and walks out [00:07:35] and Branson fires the other two who are sitting in the boat for not questioning, [00:07:40] like he was never going to go over the over the, you know, questioning, [00:07:45] not questioning a bad command. Oh, why am I bringing that up? Oh. Following [00:07:50] instructions. Right. Yeah, yeah. So? So what happens? So what happens?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): So then my [00:07:55] dad said, you know what? You deserve to go because you followed the instructions, right? [00:08:00] They didn’t ask you to join the 100 to the zero. Yeah. So I then came to England. [00:08:05] Loved it. Oh, so he took that.

Payman Langroudi: Your dad took that on?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): That’s it. Like he was like he goes, you know [00:08:10] what? He goes, they didn’t ask you to do that. So off you go. So I came here on a trip [00:08:15] because I.

Payman Langroudi: Was going to say I’d rather figure out how to kill the other kid than try and beat [00:08:20] the top kid in maths in Singapore, like. [00:08:25]

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Sabotage the others so you can get to the top. It would be.

Payman Langroudi: Easier to get [00:08:30] rid of that kid. So? So you. So how old were you when you came? Eight. [00:08:35]

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): So then I came here at eight for a holiday, and I stayed with my dad’s sister, went to [00:08:40] watch these theatre shows, everything. And my dad had been to boarding school when he was young. [00:08:45] So no, in um, in Malaysia. And [00:08:50] then in Sri Lanka during the Japanese occupation. So he was [00:08:55] like, you know. He loved boarding school. He loved the idea to tell us stories. And then he was here at [00:09:00] university in Oxford.

Payman Langroudi: So can you just remind me, is your dad a diplomat?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): No, he’s [00:09:05] an obstetrician and gynaecologist. The other end. Okay, so [00:09:10] in our family, we have this this joke that goes around. So my granddad was [00:09:15] a professor in pathology, so he’s a doctor, but dealt with all the dead bodies. Yeah. And [00:09:20] then my dad then dealt with life. And then I then dealt with the other end. So [00:09:25] it’s like.

Payman Langroudi: Are there loads and loads of doctors and dentists in your family?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): I’m the first [00:09:30] dentist. Oh, really? There are lots of doctors. Yeah. Always wanted to [00:09:35] kind of do medicine, but then also had that artistic side from my mum [00:09:40] and then thought, okay, there’s that pool. And then I said, oh, I’m, [00:09:45] I might consider going to art school and becoming a fashion designer. [00:09:50] Well, in an Asian family that went down like a bomb. That didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Work out.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): So [00:09:55] then I thought, I actually, if I do dentistry, it’s that combination of art [00:10:00] and science. Yeah. So actually, that’s a good career to do.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know Andrew Dawood?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): No. [00:10:05]

Payman Langroudi: He’s he’s a top implantology artist. And he was saying he said [00:10:10] to his Jewish parents he wants to be a potter make pots. And [00:10:15] he was saying that didn’t go down very well at all. So he did dentistry [00:10:20] instead.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Yeah. So I thought, well, in dentistry I sit there and I blend shades and everything. [00:10:25] So, you know, that’s. And even today, one of my patients, she said to me, I can tell you love [00:10:30] what you’re doing. Look at what you’ve done to my smile. And she goes, how you’ve sat there and [00:10:35] you’ve, like, carefully done everything. Then you’re looking at the front of me, the side of me, everything. [00:10:40] And I said, yeah, I love what I do.

Payman Langroudi: So I do want to delve into what drives you as a dentist. [00:10:45] But before we move on, I’d like to know how you felt in Singapore. [00:10:50] Did you feel like it was your country?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Oh, I love home. Oh [00:10:55] my God.

Payman Langroudi: Did you. Were you made to feel like you were a native? Someone from there?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): It’s a very multicultural [00:11:00] island. Yeah. So everybody celebrates [00:11:05] everyone’s festivals. So we celebrate Eid. We celebrate Diwali, Chinese New Year. [00:11:10] You know, it’s all like one big party. Through the years. So imagine you get [00:11:15] all their bank holidays as well, and you get to go to your friends houses to celebrate all [00:11:20] these great festivities. Christmas, you know, Diwali, eat whatever else.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:11:25] as a as a place to live. Is it that utopia that we’re kind of told it is here [00:11:30] or or is it that sort of state strong state that sometimes feels overpowering, [00:11:35] like what’s the biggest misconception people have about it.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): I never felt that [00:11:40] kind of thing. But then there was like a little bit there was a [00:11:45] tinge of racism in terms of, you know, the Chinese always got the better jobs, etc., [00:11:50] all those things. And then sometimes you’d get like in any country where you get all kinds of [00:11:55] races and everything in. So as in a pool. And this Chinese kid said to me, why are you so dirty? [00:12:00] And I thought, hello, I’m chocolate. Don’t be telling me I’m dirty. You like chocolate, [00:12:05] right?

Payman Langroudi: The kid meant it, though. You know, the kid wasn’t being racist. No, the kid was just being a kid. [00:12:10] Yeah. That’s it.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): You know, because kids like that, they don’t [00:12:15] know racism, do they?

Payman Langroudi: So your first impressions when you saw the UK, were [00:12:20] you, I imagine an element of excitement or nervousness, but but what [00:12:25] were the first few things that you noticed that sort of stuck with you?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): The first thing that [00:12:30] stuck with me was that the cats were so big that in our neighbourhood we had loads [00:12:35] of stray cats and, you know, you see them on the Asian streets. They’re skinny, scrawny [00:12:40] little things. And then I saw these fat cats here and I thought, and they’re big. They’re giant. [00:12:45] They look like dogs.

Payman Langroudi: That’s funny, isn’t it?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): So that stuck with me. And then [00:12:50] I loved the theatre. Oh my gosh. I went to see Annie. I went to see the [00:12:55] King.

Payman Langroudi: And what year was it?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): It was in 78. Something like that. 70 [00:13:00] Winter.

Payman Langroudi: Of discontent. Right. There was a general strike all around [00:13:05] the UK like.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): But I came and I went to. Oh my gosh, I went to the Tower of London. [00:13:10] I couldn’t believe they chop people’s heads off. You know, they’re the king or queen could decide.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:13:15] then you spent a summer enjoying. But then did they leave you in boarding school and.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): No, no, no. So then I went [00:13:20] back up and my dad said, well, did you like England? Would you like to go there to boarding school? And I said, [00:13:25] oh my gosh, yes, because I read Malory Towers, all those Enid Blyton books. And [00:13:30] then so he said, yeah, okay, I’ll send your sister first to boarding school since she’s older. [00:13:35] And I was like, please, I want to go. She’s a bit like not so sure whether she wants [00:13:40] to go or not. And so I used to go degree of.

Payman Langroudi: Confidence in a, in an 11 year old or [00:13:45] eight year old, whatever you were. That’s a degree of confidence, isn’t it?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): There is. But then [00:13:50] it’s like when I actually came, right? [00:13:55] When I actually got to the.

Payman Langroudi: Reality.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): The reality hit. Not [00:14:00] when I was there because I thought, great, I have a massive sleepover with all these girls [00:14:05] every day, you know, get to go to school, do all these other different things. I get to [00:14:10] play hockey, I get to play netball. They we played different games and things as well. So [00:14:15] the excitement then at the end of the first term when my mum came to pick me up with [00:14:20] my grandmother, imagine Christmas really, really cold, everything. But I kind [00:14:25] of absorbed everything in. And then I looked at her and I cried [00:14:30] because then I suddenly realised, oh my God, I’ve missed my mum. And [00:14:35] then she, she as a parent now when I think if my kid [00:14:40] did that, oh my gosh, my heart would break. And our heart broke. We were supposed to spend Christmas [00:14:45] here. She phoned my dad in Singapore. She’s like, babe, we’re coming back home. And then [00:14:50] we went back home for the holidays. But I never even [00:14:55] missed my parents.

Payman Langroudi: You’re too busy to miss your parents.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): It [00:15:00] was just the sheer joy of yes, I’ve come. I love this place. You know, I met your. [00:15:05]

Payman Langroudi: Daughter and you’ve started the charity with your daughter. But, um. Would [00:15:10] you put your own kids in boarding school? Yes.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Did you? I would, my son, [00:15:15] probably. He wouldn’t have liked it because he’s kind of like, um. [00:15:20] I don’t think he would have liked it. He’s. But he’s in the British Army. He loves that. [00:15:25] Yeah, he he’s great at doing, um, going out there [00:15:30] Sitting while camping, doing all those things. Yeah, my [00:15:35] daughter would have thrived in boarding school, but at the point when I would have liked [00:15:40] to have sent her was the time when I was getting divorced and things. And so it was a really hard time. [00:15:45] There were too many things happening in one go, and I thought, you know, I can’t really do [00:15:50] this to her, though in a way, you sometimes think, maybe if I put her there, there may have been some kind [00:15:55] of stability, but then it was the affordability as well. So I absolutely could not have afforded [00:16:00] to send her. That’s why I said to her, your university life, go away. Please [00:16:05] do not stay in London. Go enjoy it. Oh my gosh, she’s had the best time ever and she’s just [00:16:10] graduated. But that girl in camping. Let me tell you a story. When your kids say they want to go [00:16:15] to these festivals, whatever you say to them, go. Go with my blessing. Have the best time [00:16:20] ever. Enjoy yourself. And I said to her, there’ll be loads of drugs there. Whatever. Please, please be [00:16:25] careful. Do not touch those things. They’re laced with all kinds of things. She goes, mummy, I am sensible, [00:16:30] don’t worry. So off she went. She came back on Monday. I was so happy because she [00:16:35] said never will I go again. So sometimes you have to let your kids go and do things because [00:16:40] you know they will hate it. Because if you stop them going then they never get to experience it [00:16:45] and say she was.

Payman Langroudi: At the wrong festival. Which festival did she go to?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): So she went to Boomtown.

Payman Langroudi: I told [00:16:50] her.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): She was like, no, no, never again. She goes, I don’t know how people do all these things. The portaloos. [00:16:55] So excited. This is what she said. She said she went to the portaloo. [00:17:00] She said I made a mistake. I looked inside and I started heaving and [00:17:05] she goes, my friend next door was like, Anoushka, you haven’t even drunk. Why are you heaving? [00:17:10] And she goes, I’ve looked in the loo, I can’t do this. She goes, we’ve got four more days. So [00:17:15] I said, well, there you go. I said, you went on Duke of Edinburgh when you were at school and you didn’t [00:17:20] like it. And she goes, I thought this might be different. I thought it would be a little bit more glamorous. [00:17:25] She goes, but it was worse. So she will in a boarding [00:17:30] school situation. English boarding schools now. My goodness me, they have all kinds of things [00:17:35] there. Golf? Yeah. Rock climbing. This, that and the other. Yeah. When [00:17:40] I went to boarding school, my first boarding school was, um, convent school. Wow. [00:17:45] Um, run by nuns. Because I went to a convent school in Singapore. Even though we’re Hindus, my parents [00:17:50] believed that, like the Catholics.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): And the nuns knew what to do and would make sure [00:17:55] that you didn’t run riot. Um, my second boarding school was very much your [00:18:00] Malory Towers boarding school. Laura Ashley curtains, beautiful bedding [00:18:05] in Oxford. So it was lovely, really, really lovely. And then my third boarding [00:18:10] school was a very international boarding school. But in between that my mum said to me, okay, for sixth form, [00:18:15] why don’t you go to boarding school where your brother is in Scotland? So I said, okay, [00:18:20] I’ll go and see that because she said he’s alone there. All you girls are here. Go up there. They’re going to offer you a scholarship [00:18:25] and everything. They’ve seen your grades. They think you’re amazing. I went up there. The rain [00:18:30] came sidewards bare floors, traditional Scottish boarding school. Freezing [00:18:35] cold, the wind running through the boarding school. I was like, mum, I’m not going to be here. This is not [00:18:40] my kind of life. So like boarding schools have [00:18:45] changed from that rugged bear thing nowadays. Imagine if you sent your child to a school [00:18:50] that was like that. The the school would be shut down very soon, right? [00:18:55] Well, listen.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got friends with kids in boarding school who are very happy with the situation. Um, [00:19:00] I went to a school that had boarding. I wasn’t boarding there, but I saw [00:19:05] enough people who were having a terrible time. Oh, there are.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Lots of kids who have a bad time that I.

Payman Langroudi: At [00:19:10] the time decided I wouldn’t do that. But then the interesting. I don’t [00:19:15] know, man. The time with your kids is so short. It is short to shorten it further. [00:19:20] It just seems like so difficult. And maybe it’s like the, you know, they say the ultimate expression of [00:19:25] love is to let go or whatever. Yeah. It is. If you’re thinking of the kid, maybe the best [00:19:30] thing for that kid is boarding school in Switzerland or whatever. Yeah, but but sometimes you selfishly want to [00:19:35] keep the kid. And I think.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): We shouldn’t kind of like, almost I am. [00:19:40] I will fully admit, I helicopter parented my kids. He truly hovered over them [00:19:45] and were like, you will do this, you will do, lets help you with this, that and the other. But you have [00:19:50] to let them go. You have to let them make mistakes. And boarding school actually [00:19:55] gave me a backbone, a core, a core of strength, [00:20:00] which is your self-reliance. Together your and you know, we’d have things like competitions, [00:20:05] right. In boarding school. And you’re going to laugh at this whereby sports day you’d [00:20:10] be like you’ve got to pick the best of everybody to run, etc.. Where did they give me to [00:20:15] run the place by the woods, because they thought I’d be so scared that, you know, you’d always have these [00:20:20] dodgy people hanging out in the woods, etc.. Oh my god, we won that race because they knew [00:20:25] I would run so fast in the relay down that stretch then, you know. So we [00:20:30] did things like that where our boarding house was the smallest boarding house and you’d have inter-house competitions, [00:20:35] so it made you realise what competition is about. You know, these days when they tell kids [00:20:40] no one’s the winner, you know, I mean, sorry, everybody’s a winner.

Payman Langroudi: Prize winner.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): I’m like, no, [00:20:45] no, no, you win or nothing. That’s what I say to my kids. You’re in it [00:20:50] to win it, right? Don’t come back home and be telling me, oh yeah, we all want this. But I said, [00:20:55] no, no, you got to realise that and carry this through because you’re going to apply for [00:21:00] a job. What? You haven’t got the job, so you’re still a winner. No you’re not right. So you’ve got [00:21:05] to let them have that competitive edge. You’ve got to let them have that drive, that ambition. [00:21:10] Because I like I was given that ability in boarding school to [00:21:15] do all those things. I think that kind of like set me up for life [00:21:20] and thought, you know, if you fail, you will pick yourself up. You will. And you [00:21:25] had friends around you. And it made me realise the importance of having a village as well, you [00:21:30] know, and from boarding school. And I have to say this when you say, you know, you selfishly want to [00:21:35] keep your kids to yourself, they need friends, they need you’re not going [00:21:40] to be around forever. They need a.

Payman Langroudi: Community.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): And I’m not going to be around forever. Um, [00:21:45] but maybe our lights will be around forever, right? [00:21:50] If we if we do the right thing. But, um, we’re not going to be there [00:21:55] for them, so they need their friends. Like, I have friends from kindergarten [00:22:00] who are still my friends and I. I’ll be seeing them in a few months. Actually, [00:22:05] in September, we’re going to, um, Italy together. Friends [00:22:10] that I can call upon at different times, you know, and [00:22:15] you grow up, you get married, you have your husband or your wife and [00:22:20] they’re not. My big belief is that they’re not your everything. You have [00:22:25] to realise that, that they are maybe 30% of your everything. [00:22:30] That’s all I would give them. Yeah. Um, you know, and that your [00:22:35] friends are there to support you through different things. Your family are there to support you through [00:22:40] different things, your children, etc..

Payman Langroudi: Basing your happiness on someone else [00:22:45] or something else. You know, something sometimes, you know, the guy could be [00:22:50] a straight A student and go to Oxford and whatever, [00:22:55] but be miserable. Well, if you base your happiness on something like that, misery [00:23:00] will come because it’s an external thing. And let’s say you go to Oxford, then I’ve [00:23:05] got a friend who’s his dad killed himself because he didn’t win the Nobel Prize. [00:23:10] Oh, yeah. Like, imagine at what point he’d gotten to, you [00:23:15] know, it will. It will come and get you. You could be the top of your class. [00:23:20] Then you could be top of your university. Then you could be whatever you want to do. If [00:23:25] you base your happiness on these sort of external things, it will come. And it’s a weird [00:23:30] thing to say. An external thing. Being your husband or wife or your kid. Yeah, but [00:23:35] you’re right. Yeah.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): You can’t live vicariously through them.

Payman Langroudi: 80, 90% of your life through them. [00:23:40] Because they’ll go and they’ll do things. And then. And then you’re left with nothing. Yeah.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): But my [00:23:45] thing is, it’s that journey to get there that you pick your happiness as you go [00:23:50] along. It’s not that end point that I will be happy when I get my Nobel Peace Prize. [00:23:55] No, I will enjoy the journey as I go along. Yeah. Um, and, you know, that’s [00:24:00] really, really important.

Payman Langroudi: Where did you study dentistry?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): At, um, Barts and the Royal [00:24:05] London. So we were the first year that were the, that amalgamated year with Kings [00:24:10] and started at Queen Mary. So it.

Payman Langroudi: Was. So how was Whitechapel when you, when you got there from your [00:24:15] leafy boarding school.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): So I had my leafy boarding school [00:24:20] and I lived in Kensington. Right. And aristocrat in, [00:24:25] in Chelsea and before that in Paddington. So I lived in lovely areas [00:24:30] in London. And then my mum said to me, come on, you know, we’ll go like I’ll come with [00:24:35] you for your interviews, etc.. My mum is you’ve met her. Yeah. She’s one of those [00:24:40] that’s like, okay, come on, we’re going on this like trip together almost. So [00:24:45] she’s like, yeah, I’ll come with you. I’ll sit out there and wait for you. I’m like, mum, we’re going to Whitechapel. [00:24:50] She’s like, yeah, yeah, come on, let’s go. So then we get there. Oh my gosh, you know Whitechapel [00:24:55] Market is there right in front. Yeah, yeah. There’s rubbish all over the streets. It’s [00:25:00] amazing. This is not, this is not my boarding school Payman. This is we come from [00:25:05] Singapore. The streets are clean. You could literally sleep on the streets. So [00:25:10] she’s looking at it and she’s like, wow. She goes, look at this place. [00:25:15] She goes back home, she phones my dad. She’s like, guess what? She goes, [00:25:20] we’ve been to Whitechapel. The streets are filthy, really dirty. There was [00:25:25] rubbish all over and everything. This is the place she has to go to university because [00:25:30] she will see the most amount of disease here. She goes. You better get that place there. Oh, [00:25:35] wow. So I wasn’t expecting that.

Payman Langroudi: That’s excellent.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): If you. So when you grow [00:25:40] up with a mum like that as well. So it’s not just my boarding school with a mum like that who sees, like, the [00:25:45] gem in something, right. You’re then like, yeah, I’m going here like her. [00:25:50] And I were, like, excited that there was so much to see there.

Payman Langroudi: Did you have a good time?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): I [00:25:55] had a great time. But, you know, I don’t know what it is. Like you, [00:26:00] every day I travel in from Kensington to there, so [00:26:05] it was like a huge contrast. And then sometimes my friends [00:26:10] there would say to me like, Coco, you’re almost like this princess, [00:26:15] right? It’s 11:00. The last tube is going to go. [00:26:20] We’re going to walk you to the station and you better get the tube and go home. Maybe we’ll ride with [00:26:25] you part way through till we get to this point. You know, like so funny. I [00:26:30] have so many people can relate to this.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a princess in every year, right? Or [00:26:35] two. But it’s like love.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): That, you know, you [00:26:40] kind of like. Not the situation that happened to me with my job. You know, [00:26:45] when we used to. You qualified around the same time in the last century, as I say. [00:26:50] So you go for your interviews in all these different places. So [00:26:55] I went to Brixton, um, to this practice. And my ex-husband used to work there, [00:27:00] and I thought, yeah, you know. Hi. How are you? Whatever. Did you meet him.

Payman Langroudi: At dental school?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): I met [00:27:05] him when I was at dental school, but he was already qualified, So, um, I [00:27:10] went to this practice to meet them, and they’re like, hi, Koko, how are you? [00:27:15] Etc. and you have bars on reception [00:27:20] before trying to connect the front doors locked and bars on reception, and then they kind [00:27:25] of let you in and there’s like glass coverings etc.. And [00:27:30] then the principal then phoned me up. He goes, you’re so lovely. He goes, but he goes, you’ve [00:27:35] come with your like manicured nails, your lipstick, your everything. [00:27:40] He goes, you’re not. He goes, this is not going to be a safe place for you. That’s [00:27:45] funny. So, like, leave all your jewellery at home. That’s funny. And [00:27:50] like, he goes, I don’t think you’re going to survive here. He goes, I would love for you to work [00:27:55] with me because he goes, you just bring joy. But he goes, I just can’t do this to you. Especially [00:28:00] knowing, you know, your boyfriend. I just cannot let you come here and work. [00:28:05]

Payman Langroudi: How funny.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Yeah. So.

Payman Langroudi: So what was your first job?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): So that’s another interesting [00:28:10] thing in that. No, actually when I first qualified he had already owned practices. [00:28:15] So I came out of dental school already owning your ex-husband? Yeah. [00:28:20] Yeah. So we were we had set up, um, in, [00:28:25] um, Surrey Quays area. So there was that contrast [00:28:30] between the Docklands and then the sort of really, [00:28:35] really rundown, um, housing estates there. And then [00:28:40] our second practice was a squat in Whitechapel. Um, so I used to, like, leave the surgery, [00:28:45] go kind of help do reception, etc. and at weekends I’d kind of do [00:28:50] the forms and all those kind of things. So before I’d qualified, I really kind of was like, much older than you. [00:28:55] Um, seven years older than me. So I already knew kind of how to run a practice, etc.. [00:29:00] Um, because I was already doing it. Um, and then left [00:29:05] the left. Dental school worked for a year as an assistant in [00:29:10] the Surrey Docks practice, but goodness me, they were like gangsters [00:29:15] in things there. And they’d come in and they’d say, oh, you know, you saw Alan. Do you know why [00:29:20] he’s limping? Because I shot him in the foot. Oh my God. And I’d be like, okay, [00:29:25] that’s I understand, you know, and think, oh my goodness me, [00:29:30] we’re so safe in Singapore. And here am I working in this like gangland. [00:29:35]

Payman Langroudi: Was there any was there no idea of specialising with your, you know, with your [00:29:40] parents being the gynaecologists and all that?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): I had always [00:29:45] wanted to, um, specialise. Um, [00:29:50] but I suppose.

Payman Langroudi: You fell into this practice thing that was going.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): On. Yeah. I’d also, [00:29:55] because I grew up in practice life, because my dad was a gynaecologist. He had his own private [00:30:00] practice, and so we would all go at the weekends in [00:30:05] our school holidays. Help draw blood. Answer the phone, do all these things. So you [00:30:10] kind of grew up in that environment. So owning a practice was a [00:30:15] natural kind of step in to do things. Um, and I enjoyed it. [00:30:20] Absolutely enjoyed running a practice, you know, doing all the background stuff, [00:30:25] etc. but then it became tough because, like, things got harder, you [00:30:30] know, in our early days, easy to own a practice. Nowadays you’ve got CQC, [00:30:35] you need an HR team. You need, you know, you need to do what do they call it, black [00:30:40] box thinking. Yeah. Each one has a role, you know, trying to you [00:30:45] have to you can’t as a principal be wet fingered easily.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:30:50] businesses the businesses themselves as they grow there’s growing pains. That’s right. [00:30:55] You have to hire more people. Yeah. It’s exactly.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Manpower. Everything. It’s, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, when there’s six [00:31:00] of you and you’re all working in the same direction because it’s a new thing, and then if there’s 60 of you, [00:31:05] it’s a whole different story. Yeah. So. So go on.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): So then, um, [00:31:10] then I had kids really early on because I thought, I’m not going to be an old mum. [00:31:15] There’s absolutely no way. Um, and then kind of worked [00:31:20] part time, um, alongside, kind of like running the [00:31:25] practice so that it was like three days dentistry, the other two days doing [00:31:30] the paperwork, etc.. Um, and I also thought, I don’t want [00:31:35] to be that mum who is never really around for her kids. I tried [00:31:40] to be the kind of best working mum. There’s no formula that this is right or that is [00:31:45] right or the other is right. One. I knew that I wanted to be at work [00:31:50] because I had, what, three months maternity leave or something. [00:31:55] In those days, nobody had a year’s maternity leave or whatever it is. You just went [00:32:00] back to work and.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me, look, the juggle. I’ve had many women sitting [00:32:05] exactly where you’re sitting. And when we talk about women in dentistry, [00:32:10] it comes down to the juggle somehow. [00:32:15] I mean, it’s a funny thing. Women pressure themselves on [00:32:20] perfection in this area and punish themselves [00:32:25] over it. I don’t get men sitting here telling me to juggle [00:32:30] like my every minute of my day is taken. But I’ve got, you know, some very accomplished men. I’ve [00:32:35] got men who own 60 dental practices sitting here. They don’t worry themselves with [00:32:40] wanting to be perfect. And yet women who sit here [00:32:45] punish themselves over this.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): I think we need to realise that 80% [00:32:50] is to perfect, right? And that’s what I do now. I’m like [00:32:55] more and you’re more.

Payman Langroudi: Forgiving of yourself over.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): That 80%. I, I don’t think [00:33:00] I ever was about perfect. And I always realised you can drop balls [00:33:05] and it’s okay. Yeah. So it was always that case and I always would kind [00:33:10] of also maybe sing to my own tune, think [00:33:15] in a little way. Um, okay. I know I cannot [00:33:20] sit at home with that baby that doesn’t really say very much or engage [00:33:25] with me. I’m very much a people person. I knew that.

Payman Langroudi: You’re a scientist. It’s super [00:33:30] important that you continue your career, right? It’s. Yeah, but then some.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): People give it up. [00:33:35] Sure, sure, sure, sure. But for me, it was like I always believed. To each [00:33:40] his own. There are some people who think, okay, I want to have kids. I want to stay at home. Great. [00:33:45] That’s for you. You be you. You do you. So for me, it was that kind of like, [00:33:50] um, I will go back to work, but part time. But at the same [00:33:55] time, I will bring my kids up at the. And there were things that I really did [00:34:00] really wanted to do. So I would say to my kids, okay, [00:34:05] I will sit on the PTA of your school for one year. So that’s what I did. Um, [00:34:10] made sure that because I committed to that, I would do it well. Um, [00:34:15] and I would say to them, I will come every year, um, [00:34:20] for your matches and everything, because dentistry is that career where you [00:34:25] can leave your surgery partway in the day, go watch your kid in a match and then come back. Right? Yeah. [00:34:30] So I did that. That was great. I also said to the kids that I would go [00:34:35] on one school trip a year. Those school trips, they really do [00:34:40] your head in because you got to remember which kids are in your group and sometimes they swap and everything. Thank [00:34:45] goodness we have mobile phones. So I take a picture of the kids in my group and I’m like.

Payman Langroudi: My own [00:34:50] kids do my head and let alone other people’s children. I don’t know how I would handle that.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): So every year I’d do [00:34:55] that. I’d also go into school and help the kids read. So I kind of [00:35:00] said like did things to kind of make it work. But the best thing that I did, and I’ll [00:35:05] give this tip to every like, man and woman out there. Your kids will call [00:35:10] you up at the surgery and go, mommy, mommy, daddy, daddy, I’ve forgotten my homework at home. I’ve forgotten [00:35:15] my kit. Whatever. I said, every time you’re allowed one phone [00:35:20] call to ask me to bring something. One phone call. Right. So [00:35:25] you better think carefully what that one phone call is that you’ve forgotten something. [00:35:30] So initially it was. They’d do the one phone call, like, literally [00:35:35] on their first time. They’ve forgotten something. And then I think then when they called [00:35:40] me the second time, I’d be like, you’ve used up your phone call, right? So you can’t use it again. Then [00:35:45] as terms went by, you’d find that they wouldn’t even use it because. [00:35:50]

Payman Langroudi: It’s more self reliant.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Yeah. That’s it. I made them realise you’ve got to pack everything. You’ve got to get ready, [00:35:55] you’ve got to get going. Um, and if you haven’t brought it in, guess what? You’re [00:36:00] staying in detention, right? Life lessons for them. I [00:36:05] mean, you have to be. I know it’s a it’s some people will look at it and think, [00:36:10] oh my gosh, you’re so mean. But it’s not. It’s like, you know, I want you [00:36:15] to like, figure things out for yourself.

Payman Langroudi: It’s what I mean. [00:36:20] Parenting is a funny thing. You’ve got to play to your own self [00:36:25] regarding I mean, it’s not I would love to be the kind of parent who does teach lessons [00:36:30] like that, but I’m not very good at.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): But then they make us go soft and gooey, right? [00:36:35] Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’m just not very good at that. So if I try and do that, it’s a bit like, I don’t know, I used to have a [00:36:40] hygienist used to sell whitening all day. She used to say, treat yourself, go on, treat yourself, [00:36:45] treat yourself. It’s just she just saw loads of whitening like loads and loads and loads of whitening. And I [00:36:50] was like, that’s what she’s saying. Yeah. So let me try it. And it just did not work for me [00:36:55] to say. Treat yourself to the patient. You know, it just wasn’t correct coming from my [00:37:00] mouth. So what I’m saying is, around parenting, it’s there’s no right or wrong. I’m [00:37:05] interested in sort of the stick and carrot kind of dynamic here. Were your parents quite strict [00:37:10] or not?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): So my dad, because he worked, he was never [00:37:15] really like around so much. Um, you know, especially with being [00:37:20] a gynaecologist, like we’d go off somewhere and he’d be called off. So he was not [00:37:25] really there as such. Your mum was cool. My mum, like, was strict. [00:37:30] Um, we had, we had people around us that would like. So [00:37:35] we weren’t just. You didn’t get discipline. I’m sure for you yourself, you didn’t get discipline by just [00:37:40] your mum or dad or whatever. Um, the school.

Payman Langroudi: Itself, it was. I went to a Catholic school.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Oh, my [00:37:45] gosh, you’d be the first school.

Payman Langroudi: I went to in the UK was Catholic. That was, you know, it was hard.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): We had [00:37:50] respect for teachers.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was no doubt about stuff like that. I [00:37:55] remember then I went to a normal school. There was a it was a Church of England school and [00:38:00] it was just a totally different situation. I remember being shocked at the disrespect. Yeah. That’s [00:38:05] it. Stuff like that you get.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Yeah. So like, I try and make my kids to learn [00:38:10] respect, but then you learn the eye, right? When they look at you, you think, [00:38:15] that’s it, I’m going to bury my head. And. But my brother and I got up to a lot of mischief. [00:38:20] Right. But we were the two middle kids, and then we had my older sister and younger [00:38:25] sister, but we’d planned the mischief, get up to it, etc. so it was a fun life. But, [00:38:30] um, and I think, like when you look at kids, you want your kids to be [00:38:35] a little bit naughty. Right. Have that little bit of spark in them because, you know, that will [00:38:40] set them up for life. Right. Um, so, yeah, they gave us, like a [00:38:45] little bit of bandwidth. But then my mum also brought music into our lives. Like she [00:38:50] would like go and get like, take us to the record shop by Motown, [00:38:55] by, um, Julio, by all these things. And my parents would have these [00:39:00] parties at home. I don’t know if you had it growing up where they’d, like, roll up the Persian rug [00:39:05] and then play music like, you know, have friends over for a dinner party, play music, and [00:39:10] we’d just dance. Sure. And I remember every.

Payman Langroudi: Single Iranian dinner party ends up like [00:39:15] that.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): I remember those parties and I think, wow. And because of that, I’ve [00:39:20] loved, like, dancing. Like, if I go somewhere and the kids will always say, if we go out [00:39:25] on a holiday or somewhere and there’s some music playing, they’ll find me standing up there, I don’t care, I’ll [00:39:30] dance by myself, you know? So like, they gave us the love for those [00:39:35] kind of things. Just being spontaneous and just dancing, doing whatever. [00:39:40]

Payman Langroudi: You said the marriage failed. What was the first [00:39:45] sign of that? Did it go from what to what? In what period [00:39:50] of time?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Literally. You know what? There are red flags [00:39:55] and green flags in relationships. Yeah. And I have this thing [00:40:00] whereby now I realise things a lot more. Um, when I went [00:40:05] to school, um, university, it was all about study, study, [00:40:10] study. Um, my IQ was high, so was my EQ, but I think [00:40:15] my, um, realising that there are some bad things out [00:40:20] there in the world. Yeah, I knew things about like drugs and gangs and whatever, but [00:40:25] I didn’t realise that there were like, these little, little things that you had to kind of like, look [00:40:30] out for. Um, in terms of red flags. Um, [00:40:35] so I never realised what a narcissist was, and I [00:40:40] had actually met a narcissist and I [00:40:45] was gaslighted.

Payman Langroudi: Back then, we didn’t have these words, by the way.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): No, we never [00:40:50] realised what they were.

Payman Langroudi: Narcissist gaslighting did not exist in the.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): So he put me on [00:40:55] a pedestal, right? And said I like it [00:41:00] said the most loveliest things about me. You are gorgeous, you dress so well, you [00:41:05] are so intelligent, etc. all these things. Um, so I fell under his spell [00:41:10] and I was I dated him for three and a half years before we got married, so you [00:41:15] would think I would see some flags, etc., but, you know, you’re kind [00:41:20] of like, brush a few things aside, slight little things here and there. But we [00:41:25] when we had got married and come back from honeymoon a few days [00:41:30] after we returned from honeymoon, he slapped me over [00:41:35] something very, very minor and [00:41:40] I told his parents and they brushed it aside. They were like, no, no, [00:41:45] no, you know, it’s like he just like touched your shoulder or whatever. I was like, uh, [00:41:50] no. It was a slap across the face. Three and a.

Payman Langroudi: Half years in, this is.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Three and a half years [00:41:55] in. Yeah. And he never laid a hand on me before [00:42:00] that. I would see him get angry over things, but [00:42:05] I never realised that he would hit me. And then [00:42:10] he was then given the carte blanche because his parents, who lived in the same house as [00:42:15] us, because we lived in an Asian family system. So there was this independent girl, [00:42:20] like, who lived in her flat in Kensington, to suddenly going to live in an Asian family [00:42:25] system and then to this happening. And it was [00:42:30] like before I’d got married to him, I’d kind of, um, thought, I really want to [00:42:35] marry into my culture, into all this stuff. And I met this guy and he was like, [00:42:40] brilliant. He was, you know, he loved me to bits. He we would, [00:42:45] you know, host like nice dinner parties for our friends, everything. It was all very civilised. [00:42:50] We’d go on lovely holidays together, and suddenly I married him. And then [00:42:55] he turned into this monster. And it then became worse and worse. And [00:43:00] initially it was like, you know, here and there it’d be words and [00:43:05] words can hurt. You don’t realise how much words can hurt.

Payman Langroudi: More than [00:43:10] hands.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Exactly. Um, and it was like the putdowns and everything. [00:43:15] Um, and he just got braver and braver with things. [00:43:20] Um, but.

Payman Langroudi: You went ahead and had kids and all of that because nonetheless, [00:43:25] you.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Know, um, I’m going to learn to make him happy. [00:43:30] Fix it, you know? Yeah. You know, change him. Yes. You know, and [00:43:35] I can, like I can make him happy. We’re going to have a great life, etc. [00:43:40] we had a beautiful home. We would go on lovely holidays. [00:43:45] We had six cars parked up in the front driveway. We had at 1.3 [00:43:50] practices and you’d think to yourself, you have these things, [00:43:55] you have two beautiful kids, you know, you live in a nice neighbourhood, your kids go [00:44:00] to private school. What more does somebody want? Right? We [00:44:05] were blessed.

Payman Langroudi: You were completely happy three and a half years earlier. So. Yeah. [00:44:10] Did it get worse physically and mentally?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): It did get worse. [00:44:15] It did get worse. But. And in all this time, I did not tell my parents [00:44:20] because I thought, I don’t want them to know that I failed. And also, [00:44:25] it’s like you don’t want to fail at something, right? You’re so used [00:44:30] to in dental school doing really well, in school doing well. Right. And then [00:44:35] suddenly to be like, oh my gosh, I don’t know what [00:44:40] to do. So I was like battling within myself and every day. So my, my mom had [00:44:45] this saying to all of us kids, dress up, show up. Right? So every day [00:44:50] I would put game face on, you know, like now we have the Olympic Olympics, the Olympians, [00:44:55] they call that the Olympian effect. You turn up performing at 100%. [00:45:00] So I turned up to the surgery. Nobody would know what went on behind my closed doors. [00:45:05] Nobody would know that, you know, I was, like, so traumatised [00:45:10] by certain things. Like I had miscarriages. I had gone into [00:45:15] hospital, stretchered in an ambulance. You know, all these things that you would never [00:45:20] want your mother, your sister, your cousin, your best friend, your [00:45:25] anybody to go through, be it a man or a woman, right? You would never want them [00:45:30] to be abused in that way. And it was, you [00:45:35] know, when you hear of people being kidnapped or whatever and being in a situation and they [00:45:40] identify with their perpetrator and they don’t dare kind of put that Stockholm effect. They don’t [00:45:45] they? Yeah. They don’t dare say anything about them. So to the outside world, [00:45:50] we looked blessed and had a great lifestyle. But the moment I stepped inside my house, [00:45:55] I never knew what was waiting for me. Doctor Jekyll or Mr. Hyde? Right. [00:46:00]

Payman Langroudi: And was it substance abuse or drinking or any of that? Yeah. [00:46:05]

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Okay. He would go out for football matches, get really drunk. Whatever. [00:46:10] Um. He would. There was also substance abuse in terms [00:46:15] of drugs. Right. And I actually found cocaine inside [00:46:20] his pocket. I actually, one day we were having a party at home. I go in the garage, I’m like, [00:46:25] what is this white stuff here or laid up in line? Oh, no, no, no, this is nothing. I was [00:46:30] pregnant with my second child and I thought, oh my God, I’m [00:46:35] going to have another kid. And this is what I’m seeing. And then I found the drugs in his pocket. [00:46:40] I’m like, what is? Oh no, I’m hiding it for a friend. Well, what was the stuff in there? I don’t know what you saw. [00:46:45] That’s dust. Right. And I thought, how does piles of dust look like white [00:46:50] and drawn up in lines? Right. Um, I know I wasn’t born yesterday. [00:46:55] Um, for me, I feel drugs ruin relationships [00:47:00] and things. They ruin families. It’s. I see it. I’ve seen it now in my [00:47:05] own family. I grew up in Singapore, whereby drugs are an absolute no no. You know, you [00:47:10] will land in the Bangkok Hilton, as we call it, if you take drugs. That’s a huge [00:47:15] crime there. Um, and I thought, here is my husband doing this. [00:47:20] Like, what do I do, you know, um, so that was really, really hard, [00:47:25] and I just didn’t know, kind of like, what to do, where to turn. And I [00:47:30] was dealing with this really angry man and those drugs and things. Obviously [00:47:35] they alter his personality and things become worse and worse. I mean, I knew before I [00:47:40] married him that he’d go out to the Ministry of Sound and be taking E’s, um, [00:47:45] but I never understood the effect that that would have. [00:47:50]

Payman Langroudi: Although, you know, dependency can be to anything. I mean, [00:47:55] it can, you know, people get dependent on gambling on. Yeah, on [00:48:00] women on.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Whatever. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Food. And I of [00:48:05] course, I hear where you’re coming from on drugs. Of course I hear that. But, um, I’m going [00:48:10] to obviously ask you how you got out of it, but before we do that, [00:48:15] did you ever find sort of empathy for the reason why he [00:48:20] ended up this person, or did you never go there? I [00:48:25] mean, when you said his parents weren’t surprised And.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): I don’t know, you [00:48:30] know, I think they because he was the only son and they [00:48:35] had I know in their history they’d like kind of like lost a son [00:48:40] as well. So everything was upon this kid to like, you know, [00:48:45] he’s our only son. We’ve got two daughters. He’s the youngest. He’s like, they [00:48:50] wanted him to shine bright to, you know, like in, in within your own culture [00:48:55] itself. The only son is like the.

Payman Langroudi: Apple of their eyes.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Yeah. Whereas in my family, [00:49:00] my brother’s the only son with the three of us girls. My mum and us girls will be ready to pull [00:49:05] him down if anything. Right. There’s no sunshine out of his butt, [00:49:10] you know. So we’re always reminding him that, you know, you’ve got [00:49:15] to pull your weight, keeping him grounded. Yeah. That’s it, you know? But.

Payman Langroudi: So how did you get out of it? What [00:49:20] happened? What was the turning point?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): So one day I thought to myself, [00:49:25] If he does this again, I’m going to go to the lawyers and I’m just going to [00:49:30] get this sorted out.

Payman Langroudi: So why though? What happened? Was it.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Something? So [00:49:35] it was me thinking, how do I deal with an angry man? So I looked it up, as [00:49:40] you do when? Like how we look up, you know, Perrier or something, right? [00:49:45] You think? Okay, I’ll look it up. And then I saw this word narcissist, [00:49:50] and I thought, I’ve done, um, for my, um, [00:49:55] ib um, in my lower subjects, I’d done classics and things, and [00:50:00] I thought, I know who the God is, but I didn’t realise this is an actual [00:50:05] thing, that somebody can sort of love themselves to that extent and kind [00:50:10] of like destroy everything else around them. And the more I read into it, I thought, oh [00:50:15] my gosh, how am I going to get myself out of this? And I really have to plan my [00:50:20] exit because this is actually a dangerous person. Um, And with Narcissus, [00:50:25] you have to realise that even therapists like, [00:50:30] you know, are very careful with how they deal with them. So [00:50:35] I then said, okay, the next time he attacks me, that’s [00:50:40] it. So he did attack me and I then called [00:50:45] in for a non-molestation order, etc. he was so [00:50:50] angry with me, so angry, and he realised that he was at risk [00:50:55] of going into prison.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): And so then he thought, [00:51:00] I will get smart and I will charm her because those people [00:51:05] are very charming. Oh my gosh, he could charm the birds off the tree when [00:51:10] he’s like that little girl in the corner. When she’s good, she’s really good. And when she’s bad, [00:51:15] she’s naughty. Right. Um, but he was, oh, my god awful when he was bad. [00:51:20] Um. So he managed to charm me and say, oh, I’ll go to counselling, I’ll [00:51:25] do this, I’ll do that. So we went to counselling. Then he’d take me out for dates, [00:51:30] everything. So he really laid on the charm for six months and then after [00:51:35] that went back to his ways. So I then, then the order had then kind [00:51:40] of like lapsed. And he was then like, okay, I’ve now got her back [00:51:45] into this place. So he then he can’t help but get on with [00:51:50] it. So for a little while he found another supply to be abusive to whatever, [00:51:55] then came back to me and started that again. Um, [00:52:00] but it wouldn’t be as bad. So I’d be like, you know, we’re trying to work through this, etc.. [00:52:05] Um, and then did.

Payman Langroudi: You tell anyone?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): So [00:52:10] at that point, the, um, I’d told a [00:52:15] few of my friends and, you know, you have this [00:52:20] village and you have these like certain friends you tell certain things to. You don’t necessarily [00:52:25] tell everybody like, oh my gosh, you know, this is happening. So I had a few very close [00:52:30] friends who would like, you know, they call your do or die friends your ride or die friends who [00:52:35] if you say, we’re going to get in a car and we’re going to fly off a mountain, they’d be like, yeah, we’re going [00:52:40] to do that. Yeah. Yeah. So I had a few friends like that who’d be like, no, [00:52:45] Coco, we’re going to come. We’re going to sit outside your house and we’re going to make sure you’re okay. I [00:52:50] mean, one of them, bless her. She sat outside in the freezing cold of winter and was like, [00:52:55] I will have blankets in my cars, I will have this, etc. if you need to leave, you leave [00:53:00] at work. They knew. So they said to me, um, you need to [00:53:05] leave a bag here with your clothes and everything and your kids clothes, because if you’re [00:53:10] not going to leave, because it was like planning to leave. So I [00:53:15] in my head was like things. Stupid things. Like if I left [00:53:20] in the middle of the night, the kids won’t have uniform. They won’t be able to as a dentist, they won’t be able [00:53:25] to brush their teeth. Imagine that. You think you cannot leave because your kids can’t brush their [00:53:30] teeth the next morning.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Well, you can’t think beyond your like [00:53:35] you have a block. So at work, one of my colleagues said to me, Coco, leave [00:53:40] a bag in here with your kids uniform, right? One set of uniform, one set [00:53:45] of clothes, a set of pyjamas and their toothbrush and toothpaste. A spare, as simple as [00:53:50] that. And that actually then changed things for me, because then I thought, [00:53:55] okay, at any point I’m going to do the walkout and it will be [00:54:00] fine. But it’s getting brave and knowing that only [00:54:05] if you jump your parachute will open. Yeah, right. It’s not going to open if you [00:54:10] stand there and be, like, quivering. You’re still on that plane ride? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so [00:54:15] I then, um, one day, actually, what happened [00:54:20] was, um, my daughter pulled me aside and he’d gone off to [00:54:25] the supermarket and she said, mummy, mummy, I need you to see something. She was 12 years old [00:54:30] and she said, look at this. So she showed me his laptop [00:54:35] and he was dating all these other women, meeting them in Mayfair [00:54:40] and things like that, taking them on all these dates. And I thought, oh my gosh, here [00:54:45] am I at the weekends, running into the surgery, doing all like all the paperwork, everything [00:54:50] into. So he worked in a two man practice. By then we’d sold the Whitechapel practice. [00:54:55] Um, so we just had the Surrey Docks one and the eight man practice [00:55:00] in Holborn.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): So I was in the Holborn practice, fully private practice, running it, doing [00:55:05] everything. Plus I’d have to go and run into the other surgery to do things. Um, [00:55:10] and it was mental. He’d do things like if one of his staff didn’t come in, he’d call me and be screaming [00:55:15] down the phone, you need to come here and you need to sort it out. Well, I’ve got patience. No, [00:55:20] you need to come immediately. So my receptionist was like, Coco, why are you [00:55:25] doing this? She didn’t understand. If I didn’t go, I would get beaten or something, you know? [00:55:30] I wouldn’t know what would greet me when I got home. So it was a really hard [00:55:35] life to deal with that. But then obviously, my daughter showed me these things and she said, mummy, [00:55:40] she goes, if you’re not going to go now, when are you going to go? And like, [00:55:45] look at what he’s doing? And I said, how did you even know, like how [00:55:50] to get into his computer. That kid, she can work for MI5. I’m telling you, she [00:55:55] knows how to break into things. She said, I just kept lying down there and seeing he’s [00:56:00] doing these things and thinking, oh, maybe this is what adults do. And [00:56:05] she said, then I looked at your phone and looked at all your stuff on your phone, and I thought, I don’t find [00:56:10] this year. And then she goes, I talk to my school friends and I thought, [00:56:15] oh my God, this is oversharing.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Like, I was like, that’s not good. And [00:56:20] she said, and my friend said, that’s not normal. And so [00:56:25] she then said, you need to go. We need to go. Let’s just [00:56:30] leave. And I thought, you know, if I don’t go at this moment, this girl [00:56:35] is going to carry that through for the rest of her life. Yeah, right. And then [00:56:40] I then called back the lawyers put a non-molestation or an [00:56:45] order in that he didn’t come within a certain distance of us. Et cetera. Then they were like, [00:56:50] no, we can’t put that order back in. He hasn’t actually touched you. And I thought, oh my gosh, what [00:56:55] am I going to do? So I said, get the divorce going. So then they started that process. [00:57:00] Then one day I came home and he’d attacked my son and [00:57:05] my daughter standing on the doorstep going, dad’s attacked Aaron. His [00:57:10] parents were like, no, no, no, this never happened. I was like, Non-mall ordering for [00:57:15] him. Get us all protected, get him arrested, get him taken out of the house. I was like, [00:57:20] I can’t deal with this anymore. It was like I had got to that point [00:57:25] when you can touch me but don’t touch my kids. And [00:57:30] so it was. I don’t know you. [00:57:35] You think you can cope when it’s happening to you, but suddenly you become like mother hen when it happens [00:57:40] to your kids, you’re like, no, no, no, it’s a different thing and.

Payman Langroudi: Everyone’s got [00:57:45] a limit, right? I mean, it’s interesting.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): You limit helpless.

Payman Langroudi: Know your limit [00:57:50] only only got there when both kids, you know were involved. But [00:57:55] when your daughter told you.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Value myself more.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you know.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Was it [00:58:00] that I was chipped and chipped and chipped and chipped till like, you [00:58:05] know, I don’t know. So I just got him arrested. Got him taken out. His dad [00:58:10] called me all kinds of names under the sun. They said I was lying. They said I [00:58:15] was the one having affairs. Everything. Oh, my gosh, it was horrible. Really, really [00:58:20] horrible. And then his staff then also told me, oh, yeah, he’s on these sites [00:58:25] at lunchtime. We see him on all these things. And I thought, oh my gosh, I come [00:58:30] in here, you guys don’t even say anything. But then, you know, that’s the Dental [00:58:35] world, right? Nobody’s going to turn around and say, oh yeah. By the way, your husband’s doing [00:58:40] this to you. Um, and I thought, where does he have the time to [00:58:45] be doing this? Running a dental practice takes up. It’s all consuming, right? [00:58:50] Um, I.

Payman Langroudi: Mean, the mad thing is that physical and and [00:58:55] mental abuse on its own wasn’t enough [00:59:00] to to make you want to go. It was. That was that was the last the last straw.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): The last [00:59:05] straw was my daughter telling me. Yeah, yeah. Because I thought, what am I going to do to her? [00:59:10] Yeah, yeah. And also she had told her friends as well, and what am I going to do to her [00:59:15] and her friends. And this is the future of these females. And so [00:59:20] I was like, I’ve got to walk.

Payman Langroudi: So you hit like a rock bottom, right? Is [00:59:25] that is that was that moment. The moment that was.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Not rock bottom. What was he told [00:59:30] me I will make sure you suffer. So I had no access [00:59:35] to like, um, like in taking him to court and everything. I [00:59:40] had to then, you know, lawyers, they expect you to put the money up front, etc.. I [00:59:45] maxed my cards. I took out a loan, I did everything, he was not [00:59:50] paying, child maintenance, etc. school even asked if [00:59:55] they should put my children on school meals, to growing up in a decent [01:00:00] family, to having a decent life right? More [01:00:05] than decent life to then being at this place the day [01:00:10] my the financial agreements and everything were going through. I was £30,000 [01:00:15] in debt payment. Right? And [01:00:20] I was literally terrified of walking the streets because he said to me, [01:00:25] I will find you and I will kill you, right? If you leave this [01:00:30] marriage, I will find you and I will kill you. You hear these stories of people being buried in the back patio? [01:00:35] That was what I thought was going to happen. You believed him, right? Because, yeah, like he [01:00:40] would say to me, I will break your nose. He would like, you know, right. The marriage. [01:00:45] But every day I’d think I have to come back, because otherwise he’s going to find me and [01:00:50] kill me. And until that moment when my daughter was like, mommy, you [01:00:55] need to leave. Like, how long are you going to wait for? And like you said earlier, your kids [01:01:00] go off to university. Then you’re left there with a the monster. And then what? Right. [01:01:05] So I was like, shit, I got to pick myself up.

Payman Langroudi: What about the psychological [01:01:10] turning point between not telling anyone and [01:01:15] now where you’re telling everyone that it’s [01:01:20] that? When did you feel like I need to tell this story for others to.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): It [01:01:25] wasn’t at that point because I felt shame. A huge amount [01:01:30] of shame. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I failed in my marriage. I’m so embarrassed [01:01:35] that here are my like, you know, you.

Payman Langroudi: Speak to that perfection thing, doesn’t [01:01:40] it? On one side, you’ve got perfection and then.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): It does on.

Payman Langroudi: The other side, it’s [01:01:45] not, it’s not.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): It’s a house of cards.

Payman Langroudi: Lots of things have fallen. Yeah, yeah.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): And it [01:01:50] was like, what do I how do I get out of this? You know, being [01:01:55] in debt is a shame in itself as well. Not being able to like, [01:02:00] afford school uniform for your children. You know, my daughter’s going in school. She’s growing, [01:02:05] and her school uniform is tight on her. It’s short. Um, [01:02:10] those kind of things. I can’t pay my son’s school fees. What do you do? [01:02:15] But you. Somehow that core strength [01:02:20] of survival from boarding school days, like, kicked in, and I was [01:02:25] like, okay, so you have said to me that you’re going to make sure I fail and [01:02:30] you’re going to laugh about this. I will show you. So I was [01:02:35] like, what am I going to do to turn this around? Right? And we are lucky as dentists [01:02:40] that we can you can step up right. Your [01:02:45] earnings and things. There’s no other job out there that I think anyway where you can think to [01:02:50] yourself, Come Monday morning, I’m going to hit the ground running solidly for [01:02:55] six months and I’m going to make X, right. So I thought, what am [01:03:00] I going to do dentistry wise that is going to help me kind [01:03:05] of like make money to bring this family of mine up, make [01:03:10] sure that I get myself out of this situation. So I thought, [01:03:15] shall I go do implants? And then I thought, that’s like one of those things [01:03:20] where it’s going to take me a long time, right? Should I do [01:03:25] endo that’s miserable and like give you those glabella lines when you concentrate [01:03:30] trying to do your root canal.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): And I was like no, no, no. Got to make [01:03:35] sure there are no lines there. And then I thought, okay, why don’t I do a [01:03:40] little bit like, you know, of like clear, clear step or whatever was around [01:03:45] then. So why don’t I go and do Invisalign, right. Because we were doing a little bit [01:03:50] of that in the practice and I thought, I’ll go do that. So I then decided to up [01:03:55] my Invisalign game, knowing that the ROI would have been greater [01:04:00] in terms of like in a short term. Yeah. And [01:04:05] so I went and thought, okay, there’s this diploma out there for [01:04:10] clear aligner therapy. Let me go and do that. Which one? Um, the one that Ramon and Andy [01:04:15] run. Oh, okay. So, um, the first lot of people that were in there. So when I spoke [01:04:20] to Andy, I said, okay, who’s in this thing? And I thought, there are all these, like, Instagram famous people. [01:04:25] Yeah. I don’t fit into that world. Um, let me just see whether this is actually [01:04:30] a course that is going to take on or not.

Payman Langroudi: Is it part of Ilona? They’ve [01:04:35] changed the name now. Yeah, yeah. What’s it called?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Um, Ilona consulting it was. But now it’s the Ilona Dental [01:04:40] Academy. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s part of. It’s a course from there.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): So it’s a course? Yeah. So I spoke to Andy, [01:04:45] and then I said, maybe I’ll come into the second cohort. Yeah. So I joined the second cohort at [01:04:50] the time when my life was falling apart, like divorce going on, like the police [01:04:55] saying to me, you need to go make a different life for yourself. Go set up somewhere else. I thought, no, I [01:05:00] have my village here. My village are there to support me. If I leave and start [01:05:05] a life somewhere else, go to the borders of Wales or Scotland or wherever.

Payman Langroudi: What happened [01:05:10] to him in this period? What was?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): So we had a case going on where [01:05:15] it was the. So that was, uh, a case going on [01:05:20] for the, a separate one for the kids, for the abuse over my son. [01:05:25] Then there was my case, um, for his abuse to [01:05:30] me. Then there was obviously the divorce case going on. So there was a lot going [01:05:35] on and a lot of money being poured into it. Um, and so [01:05:40] my case got thrown out of court on the day we went in to the [01:05:45] court because they said, um, it’s historical abuse. It’s more than six [01:05:50] months old, so we can’t do anything about it. And, um, [01:05:55] I thought, goodness me, how is that possible? First, you [01:06:00] have to get brave enough to put that forward. Right?

Payman Langroudi: It’s a very long six months, [01:06:05] right?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): It is. And, you know, it takes a lot out of you to actually step up and [01:06:10] say, this is happening to me. And so he got away. [01:06:15] And then I thought, okay, the kids have their case going on. And my daughter thought [01:06:20] it was wholly unfair that the, um, his barrister stood [01:06:25] up and said, here is a man, a professional, and if you think [01:06:30] there’s any iota of doubt in you, you need to let this go, because [01:06:35] let this man go, because it’s his career that is on [01:06:40] hold, you know, put it before you. And so then they let him go. [01:06:45] And his mum stood up in court too and said, oh no, my son’s innocent. She’s [01:06:50] a bitter wife. She’s making all this up, she put her kids up to it, etc.. Wow. So, [01:06:55] you know, all this stuff goes on and you never realise [01:07:00] to yourself what happens in courts, etc. [01:07:05] here in this country, it’s who tells the better story, who tells the [01:07:10] most believable story. So you have this charming man in front of you telling this story, [01:07:15] and then you have this woman who’s, like, destroyed and trying to halt her kids together, trying [01:07:20] to take them to school every day, trying to go to work, trying to deal with all the traumas [01:07:25] of everything, the traumas of the kids, etc., trying to deal with her own traumas and [01:07:30] trying to make a life and trying to say, I can do this, I am going to do this. [01:07:35] I’m going to make this work. Right. I did not.

Payman Langroudi: You think, you know, if you haven’t been [01:07:40] involved with the law, you there’s a feeling that you have that the truth will out. [01:07:45] It’s just a very like from the movies.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Always.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly. And it’s nothing to [01:07:50] do with.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Live in this fairy tale world where you think that will happen and it won’t. [01:07:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s its own little world. And, you know, they say, get get a bigger [01:08:00] lawyer than your opposition. It’s like that’s that’s the most important thing. It [01:08:05] is not what happened.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): And and you have to get trained. So now [01:08:10] what I’ve done is gone and trained my own self to then [01:08:15] speak to other people who are going through, be it divorce, separation, whatever. [01:08:20] How to make yourself strong, right. And how to [01:08:25] you got to stand up there. You got to be that Olympian when you turn up [01:08:30] right? No matter what shit is going on behind, you have to be strong and realise [01:08:35] you’ve got to talk the talk, walk the walk and get shit done. Because [01:08:40] on that day, that’s showtime, right? Yeah. And I never realised [01:08:45] that I was broken. I was like I [01:08:50] was not on my A-game. I was like, maybe on 10%. [01:08:55] And it was hard. It was really, really hard. Um, but [01:09:00] on the day when I went into court to kind [01:09:05] of like sort out the financial things that day, I realised I was sitting [01:09:10] at rock bottom, a place below rock bottom, that I was not worth. [01:09:15] I had no sense of self-worth, even because I was broken [01:09:20] by the whole process, but yet at the same time trying to hold my family together. [01:09:25] I don’t know how I did it, but then, as they say, I [01:09:30] went find that course and thought, I’m going to do that. I’m going to up my game. So [01:09:35] did the clear aligner therapy diploma. [01:09:40] Then, um, found some great friends. They’re friends [01:09:45] for life, Literally. We’d all, you know, at the end of the course, every day, [01:09:50] we’d go out to a restaurant stand singing Disney songs, um, and [01:09:55] got to be great friends with Ramon and Andy.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): I have to say, they like, [01:10:00] you know, when they say you are the sum of the people you hang around with. I’m a big believer [01:10:05] of having that core of people who will pull you up and say, what [01:10:10] are you doing? Step up. Right. Yeah. So I have that core of people [01:10:15] around me. Um, but I also at that point decided as [01:10:20] I was earning the money and putting the money into the kids, bringing them up, I thought I [01:10:25] have to. Also, not only was I investing in myself in that course, I have to invest [01:10:30] in myself in terms of my strength, in terms of building [01:10:35] a better me. So this is another thing that I speak to people about. Make [01:10:40] sure you invest in your own self and in your worth, etc. because you cannot [01:10:45] go and help anybody out until you are strong. So how was I going to be a better [01:10:50] mother, a better clinician, a better person, you know, in being that [01:10:55] better person first, I can then be a better mom, a better clinician and serve others [01:11:00] better. So I then thought, I need to find a coach who [01:11:05] is going to understand family dentistry. You know, all these, [01:11:10] you have all these different coaches, but do they understand that you’re having to like juggle dentistry, [01:11:15] juggle your home life, try and be 100% or for me, 80% [01:11:20] perfect and you will drop balls and what to do? So then [01:11:25] I did find a life coach, and I said to him, this is what [01:11:30] I want out of this, right? Can you do this? And he [01:11:35] was like, yep, Coco, we will get you there.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): And I was like, with this. [01:11:40] I said, I’m coming into this And I don’t want another man, another woman [01:11:45] to go through this. I will stand up and I will speak. [01:11:50] I will raise my head above my castle walls, and I will let people know it’s okay. [01:11:55] Right. I am no longer going to carry this around like shame. Yeah, [01:12:00] right. I’m going to wear this like a badge and say, guess what? Okay. It [01:12:05] can happen to anybody. You can come from a low class family, a high class family, [01:12:10] a middle income family or whatever. Abuse does not pick [01:12:15] like what background you come from or anything. It doesn’t [01:12:20] pick black, white, Chinese, whatever. It’s like, it happens. And [01:12:25] I want people to realise what narcissism is because [01:12:30] we didn’t know. As you yourself clearly said, we had no idea. [01:12:35] Um, and so. Yeah. So I [01:12:40] found this coach. He, like, literally shot a bullet at me and said, get [01:12:45] on your your career.

Payman Langroudi: Then going forward in autumn, it ended [01:12:50] up you’re right. Now you’re teaching. Did you find did you find [01:12:55] a line of therapy to be something that you didn’t expect, something you loved more than the rest of [01:13:00] dentistry? The reason I say it is because Millie Morrison, who you know. [01:13:05] Yeah. You do know. Yeah. Um, she she was. I was grooming her [01:13:10] to to be the next composite person, um, teacher in I [01:13:15] mean, a massively talented with composite, massively talented, massively [01:13:20] talented teacher. Yeah. Um, and then one day, she said, I never want to do composites again. I’m going down [01:13:25] aligners forever. Yeah. And she’s a massively talented teacher in that. Well, [01:13:30] how do you feel about aligners? Have you got that feeling about them that she does?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): So it’s for [01:13:35] me it’s a combination of things. So it’s that the aloneness. [01:13:40] Right? So I’m aligning your teeth. Yeah. Then it’s the whitening. Yeah. And [01:13:45] then it’s the bonding. Yeah. And then on top of that, it’s that facial aesthetics. [01:13:50] Yeah. So. And it’s all those.

Payman Langroudi: It’s all one to 1 to 1.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): That’s right. So it’s [01:13:55] that happiness centred thing. Yeah. So I’m not sitting there doing endo. [01:14:00]

Payman Langroudi: Although I hear from some dentists that, [01:14:05] you know, a lime bleach bond isn’t dentistry. Yeah. Um, and they’re always [01:14:10] looking down on it a little bit or or maybe they’re looking down on, for instance, [01:14:15] a young dentist saying they want to get into that and they’re like, [01:14:20] well, why don’t you just become a dentist first or, you know, this sort of language. Whereas I [01:14:25] just love the want side of dentistry so much because in intrinsic [01:14:30] in our profession is a trust dynamic. [01:14:35] Yeah. A bit like taking your car for service. I [01:14:40] don’t know anything about my car. Yeah, yeah, I’ve got no idea. Yeah. It’s intrinsic [01:14:45] in our profession. The guy’s got no idea what’s going on in his mouth. He’s got [01:14:50] no idea what you’ve done to him either. Yeah. No idea. Um. And he has [01:14:55] to fully trust you. Whereas in the wants area, I don’t have to say you [01:15:00] need. I’m like, do you want? Yeah. And it’s one of the biggest problems [01:15:05] in in enlightened with, with dentists. They don’t say, do you want your teeth whitened? [01:15:10] Have you ever thought about teeth whitening? Because we’re so used to saying if you don’t have the crown, you’ll [01:15:15] you’ll break your tooth. If you don’t have the filling, you’ll need a crown. If you don’t brush your teeth, all the needs. But [01:15:20] if you don’t do X, terrible thing, Y will happen. Whereas with the wants, [01:15:25] it’s that if you do do X, amazing thing y will happen. [01:15:30] And I was so much more attracted to that side. That part of if I was a garage [01:15:35] guy, it’d be selling, I don’t know, satnavs and stereo units. Rather than saying [01:15:40] blackout windows. Yeah, rather than saying your brakes need changing. Yeah. Because that inherent trust [01:15:45] problem.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): So for me, right, I now [01:15:50] work my dentistry into. What brings me joy? Yeah, [01:15:55] right. And it’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Joyous thing, right?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): I’ve let go of the things that don’t bring me joy. [01:16:00] Yeah, right. And people buy from happiness, right? [01:16:05] True. People will buy from you if you [01:16:10] exude that. Happiness. You actually genuinely love what you do. [01:16:15] And they come in. They see the joy in you. They’re like, no matter what, they’re like, whatever [01:16:20] it is, I want some of that. It’s like when Harry met Sally. When she. When they go, [01:16:25] I’m having some. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it’s [01:16:30] it’s a case of, um, you know, I want [01:16:35] I want my life to be sort of. I [01:16:40] want that happiness there. Right. And have you listened to that [01:16:45] podcast? I or I don’t know who spoke about this, what the name of [01:16:50] the person is, but they say, um, how you sell, right? So [01:16:55] you have the five senses and you’ve got to make sure you tick all the five senses. [01:17:00] So I try and kind of like, get my room, my practice into that kind of thing. So [01:17:05] you have to hit the five senses. So it has to be taste, smell all these different things. For [01:17:10] example, you ride a motorbike, right? The thrill of riding [01:17:15] a motorbike is the feel of the bike, the smell of the petrol, the, you know, all [01:17:20] those kind of things. So you hit many of those five senses. [01:17:25] So they have a graph and it goes from 0 to 10. So sense of taste [01:17:30] not a huge maybe you can taste, I suppose, to somebody who is a right petrolhead [01:17:35] right. Maybe that will come to a 3 or 4 or whatever. Then [01:17:40] the, um, the actual feel of the bike that like vibration.

Payman Langroudi: Dentistry, how do [01:17:45] you intend to translate.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): It? Okay. So then so you come into a practice. Yeah. Right. So [01:17:50] the the look of everything. So when you see everything is so neatly set [01:17:55] up and it looks beautiful, etc., then you think taste [01:18:00] of things right, smell you come in to a does it smell of bleach. Does [01:18:05] it smell I love I travel the world buying all these different [01:18:10] scents for the practice. Like last year when Millie got married, I went to Italy and [01:18:15] there I went to they have these lovely little boutique shops with these amazing [01:18:20] smells. So I bought these really nice diffusers and everything from there [01:18:25] for the practice. When I went to Sweden recently, I bought some things from there to [01:18:30] smell. Yeah. Right then. And how you smell as well? Yeah. Right. [01:18:35] And then there is the touch in terms of I, I shake [01:18:40] my patient’s hand, but even more I hug my patients. I’m a big hugger. Yeah. Um, [01:18:45] so that’s important in how you make them feel. So. Taste the mouthwash. [01:18:50] You know all those things, right? You don’t give your patients coffee, do you? [01:18:55] And then coffee in one hand, then. Then whitening in the other.

Payman Langroudi: Do you not offer them coffee? [01:19:00]

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): No. I offer them water. Hot water, cold water. But I don’t offer them [01:19:05] coffee. It’s funny, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Our own prejudices around drinks.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): I don’t drink any tea or.

Payman Langroudi: Coffee.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Because [01:19:10] I like to keep my teeth white. So. Um, [01:19:15] okay.

Payman Langroudi: So when you. When you hit the five.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Senses, when you hit the five senses, so.

Payman Langroudi: They have their attention.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Something [01:19:20] like sex, you hit all the five senses, right? So you [01:19:25] have to think, how am I going to hit all those five senses in a dental practice. For me, that’s, [01:19:30] like, so important to have that thing. Your uniform, what that looks like, you know. And [01:19:35] it’s those also those touch points. So let’s say, for example, [01:19:40] yourself when I come here, I’ve seen enlightened like from when I start [01:19:45] at the door, then I come in, then I see enlightened and enlightened there. So then I’m like, Payman, [01:19:50] let’s say I didn’t know anything about enlightened. What is enlightened, right? [01:19:55] So I have signs of Invisalign outside on the A board. When [01:20:00] they come in, there’s Invisalign on my uniform. It says doctor DaVinci and Invisalign [01:20:05] under it. Right. So I’ve got that put on my uniform. So one of [01:20:10] the staff said to me, Invisalign is not your surname. And I said, well, [01:20:15] you know, we actually we supply.

Payman Langroudi: We supply enlightened badges to all our users. [01:20:20]

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Yeah. So there you go. So it’s it’s.

Payman Langroudi: I feel like [01:20:25] with you there’s a. The speed of trust is [01:20:30] the way I’d put it. Yeah, the speed of trust with you is faster [01:20:35] than the average person. Much faster. Yeah. So you can talk about all of this stuff here. But [01:20:40] if it was a grubby old surgery, there’s something about you that there’s an authenticity [01:20:45] about you and a joy and a joy. You’re right. Joy is a big part of it. That, [01:20:50] and I’d say that’s the most important thing in dentistry because of this trust [01:20:55] dynamic that we were talking about. Yeah.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): It is. Um, I don’t [01:21:00] I don’t know where it comes naturally to you or how it came, but I will sit at [01:21:05] a bus stop, and this is what my friends would laugh at me about. They’re like, Coco, you sit at a bus [01:21:10] stop and somebody will talk to you. You sit in a like this weekend [01:21:15] I was sitting in the bus and this old man and old lady sitting next [01:21:20] to me, they they were looking at me and they were smiling. Ling, so I [01:21:25] don’t know. Maybe they recognise me from. Were you.

Payman Langroudi: This person? Were you this person before [01:21:30] the abuse? And then you found I lost myself, I.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Lost [01:21:35] me, yeah, yeah. And this is what I said to my life coach. I need to find myself [01:21:40] back again. I need to find that girl who, at [01:21:45] eight years old, believed in herself. I need to find her back again. And [01:21:50] so one day, he did this thing where he said to me, think back [01:21:55] to when you were eight years old, and remember that girl. Remember how she [01:22:00] wasn’t afraid of anything. Remember how she dared do things. Remember. Remember [01:22:05] that girl? Oh my gosh. I cried for like two weeks because [01:22:10] I remembered that girl who was like, not afraid, [01:22:15] who was positive. Yeah. And I thought, I’ve got to get that girl back. There [01:22:20] were there were like bits of that where I would leave the house and [01:22:25] have my A game on. But it was, it was [01:22:30] literally like my mum saying to me, dress up, show up. Yeah. [01:22:35] And it was a veneer.

Payman Langroudi: Rather than the actuality of.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): It. Whereas now it’s like [01:22:40] it’s it’s back, it’s there. It’s like, that’s my [01:22:45] every molecule in me, every atom in me is like, that’s me.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [01:22:50] on this pod. We like to talk about mistakes. Have [01:22:55] you listened to any. We like we like to talk about mistakes and black box thinking. You mentioned [01:23:00] where you know, where when a plane crashes, they find out what went [01:23:05] wrong, and then they don’t blame anyone. And they just tell all the pilot community [01:23:10] what happened to try and make sure everyone learns from what happened. But [01:23:15] in clinical medical situations, when something goes wrong, we blame [01:23:20] tends to be the main thing. And so we try and hide it [01:23:25] and we and we make sure we get embarrassed. We don’t talk about it. None of us learn from [01:23:30] each other’s mistakes because of that. So to buck that trend on this pod, everyone [01:23:35] who comes on this pod tells me what they think. You can choose [01:23:40] your biggest clinical error that you made your most difficult patient. [01:23:45] I like those stories quite a lot too. What comes to mind? [01:23:50]

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): I would say biggest clinical mistake and I learned this very, very early on [01:23:55] was, you know, in dental school when they they [01:24:00] say to you, here’s your patient. You take ages, you set everything up and you look [01:24:05] at the tooth, you get it right, etc.. So I had to prep a crown and [01:24:10] it was in a lower seven. So I prepped [01:24:15] the buccal surface of the seven and the lingual surface of the six. I [01:24:20] don’t know how.

Payman Langroudi: To love.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): That one. [01:24:25] I don’t know how, but I realised just as I was halfway through prepping the lingual [01:24:30] surface of the six.

Payman Langroudi: I love that one.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): And then I said, I call my tutor. I was [01:24:35] like, Frank. I said, I don’t know what I’ve done. And then he’s like, well, [01:24:40] the six maybe needs an inlay. So and [01:24:45] the filling is quite large. It’s borderline inlay.

Payman Langroudi: Well done Frank.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): And he’s [01:24:50] like, did you tell.

Payman Langroudi: The patient.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): You. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So I told the.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Patient, I said what had.

Payman Langroudi: Happened. [01:24:55] Yeah, yeah, the whole thing. And exactly what had happened.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Yeah. And the patient, his [01:25:00] name is Michael. He said, well, he said Frank [01:25:05] says that it needs an online. So he goes, why don’t you do both of them today? [01:25:10] I said, I haven’t got time to do both of them. He goes, you’re going to qualify very soon. He goes, you may as well [01:25:15] do both of them together at the same time. What a great album. And then Frank is, Frank said, yeah, that’s a good idea. [01:25:20] Do them both at the same time. And so I was like, oh my gosh. So then [01:25:25] I did them both. But guess what? 25 years later, this guy comes [01:25:30] to my practice. Michael. He has found me in Holborn and [01:25:35] he came in and he said to me, you’re the best dentist I ever had. My [01:25:40] work is still in my mouth. Those those things that you prepared for me. Look at them. [01:25:45] And he showed them to me. And I said, you know what? For all my life, I have always [01:25:50] thought I really need to find you. But I [01:25:55] said, you’ve come to me and there is something I need to tell you. I [01:26:00] said, because you gave me a lesson in life. So he had little kids [01:26:05] and a boy and a girl. And one day when I was doing his teeth.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Not the day when I, when [01:26:10] I prepped the buccal lingual, he said, you know what? He goes. Tomorrow I’m [01:26:15] going to take the day off. It’s it was a weekday. And he said, it’s a school day. [01:26:20] It’s a sunny day. I’m going to take my kids. We’re going to go off to the seaside and have [01:26:25] a great time, and then we’re going to go back home. And I said, but then at school they’ll find them [01:26:30] missing and everything. And he’s like, so what? He goes, how many sunny days do we have here in [01:26:35] this country? I’m going to live life. I’m just going to go. I don’t care what they say to me. Whatever. [01:26:40] Yeah. And since that time I always thought I’m going to do that. So guess [01:26:45] what I did like when the kids were at school, you know, they say you can’t leave school before the term [01:26:50] finishes because you can’t go away on holiday, etc.. You just so I think [01:26:55] you know what? That man did it. And he taught me a lesson that life is only so short and you’ve got [01:27:00] to enjoy it. Just grab opportunity and just go do it. So I said [01:27:05] thank you for that lesson. He goes, I’ve come here to thank you and you’re thanking me.

Payman Langroudi: It’s funny, I don’t normally [01:27:10] accept Dental school errors. I like to listen to them just [01:27:15] to hear exactly what happened, but I don’t normally accept those.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): So what are you waiting.

Payman Langroudi: In this in this particular [01:27:20] case? I mean, I also don’t accept happy endings either. That [01:27:25] was a very happy ending. I kind of want to hear a difficult, patient story.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): You [01:27:30] know, when you say yes to somebody you [01:27:35] shouldn’t say yes to. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Go on.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Right.

Payman Langroudi: So that spider sense, [01:27:40] right where you feel something’s off here, and then your ego kind of takes over and says, [01:27:45] I know the last guy didn’t manage, but I will because I do things differently, that sort of thing. [01:27:50]

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): It’s like it’s my thing whereby I will only do happy treatments. So somebody [01:27:55] comes in like desperate for an endo and going, please, please do it for me. I [01:28:00] can’t wait for the specialist. Whatever. Yeah. And I’m like, no, it’s not my thing. [01:28:05] I would rather you go and see a specialist. Oh no no no no no, please, please do [01:28:10] it for me, you know. And I said, these are the risks, right? And they’re like, no, no, no, [01:28:15] please, please. And then guess what? It comes back to bite me in the backside because you’re [01:28:20] only as good as your worst piece of work. Yeah, yeah. So then she was like, I need [01:28:25] to see my notes. I need to do this. I need often the.

Payman Langroudi: Cases where you really go out of your way end up [01:28:30] being the ones. It’s so weird, isn’t it? And then she’d.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Come late every time she had an appointment. She would come [01:28:35] in late and I’d be like, you haven’t given me enough time to do this. So everything compounded [01:28:40] on top of that. And I just thought, why did I say yes to this? [01:28:45] So nowadays I’m much more strict about things. [01:28:50] I’m like, no, you may stand there, you may be crying, you may be doing whatever, but [01:28:55] I will not do this because I will not be doing it to my mother, my sister, my [01:29:00] brother. I would send them to the specialist. Yeah. So, you know, [01:29:05] you ought to go as well.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me about the charity [01:29:10] that you’re doing with your daughter?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): So this. How did it.

Payman Langroudi: Start?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Well, [01:29:15] we’re thinking to ourselves, what are we going to do to kind of, like, almost [01:29:20] like celebrate ten years of, like, walking away from something where [01:29:25] I could have been living a different life. Um, so she said, [01:29:30] you know, Anushka and I thought, okay, we will go. Maybe, um, give [01:29:35] something to, uh, like a women’s refuge. [01:29:40] Um, and then we thought maybe we’ll spend some time there over Christmas, etc.. [01:29:45] And then my daughter just graduated this year and [01:29:50] I thought, wow, nobody could take away her education and [01:29:55] nobody could take away mine. Yeah, because because I was educated, I [01:30:00] could then turn my life back around. Yeah. And because I [01:30:05] could read, I could then escape into a world of books. So [01:30:10] we then thought, why don’t we actually give books [01:30:15] to an inner city school where kids can then [01:30:20] use those books, study, learn whatever, and push themselves [01:30:25] ahead in life? You know, why don’t we give to, you [01:30:30] know, a school out in Africa or something, or India and [01:30:35] give them that chance in life? So what we’re going to do [01:30:40] come to October is domestic Violence Month. And [01:30:45] December is a time for giving here in England, it being Christmas. So [01:30:50] we thought, okay, what we’re going to do this year, come October time, [01:30:55] we’ll get other practices to either give books in [01:31:00] for inner city schools or for us to send abroad, or [01:31:05] we will get people to give into a GoFundMe page [01:31:10] that we can then fund actually sending these books out, because it’s one thing gathering [01:31:15] the books, but it’s another thing having to actually pay to send them abroad. [01:31:20] Um, yeah. So we just thought that is [01:31:25] a much, much more important thing and it has a bigger impact if you think [01:31:30] about it. Yeah, right. You read this book and then this other child reads [01:31:35] it, then this other child and this, and then they get different things out of it, [01:31:40] not just the education from reading it. It’s the escapism. It’s the, [01:31:45] you know, building on their language because some of these kids don’t even speak [01:31:50] English very well, etc.. So there’s a massive ripple effect that that can [01:31:55] have.

Payman Langroudi: Is there a page you can go to now or not?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): We’re going to set that up soon because [01:32:00] I’m in the process of um, so there is a lady who sends things out at the moment [01:32:05] to a school in Africa, and she [01:32:10] has. I actually met her at a book launch for a patient of mine, [01:32:15] and she said to me, oh, look, you know, this is what I do, and [01:32:20] you know how people are put in. There is some bigger being [01:32:25] that puts people in your path to kind of like, help you at different points in your life, [01:32:30] or if you have something that you want to do, you suddenly meet somebody who is [01:32:35] that conduit to you doing something? I know when I was getting divorced, there [01:32:40] were people who somehow came into my life who kind of helped me along the way. And so this lady [01:32:45] was there like, this is what I do. And I said, great, this is what Anushka and I want to [01:32:50] do. Um, can we help you in any way? Um, and she’s [01:32:55] like, brilliant, if you can, that would be really, really great. So, um, I [01:33:00] will be, she said at the moment. Away. So she comes back in two weeks time. So I’ll be speaking [01:33:05] to her a little bit more. And yeah, then Josephine, Anushka and myself will [01:33:10] set this up and get it going.

Payman Langroudi: Keep us informed of that. I will try and put it in the show notes. [01:33:15] If you have something. By the time this comes out, we’ll do. So it’s been a massive pleasure to [01:33:20] have you.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Um, thank you for.

Payman Langroudi: We could keep talking forever. We [01:33:25] do end it on the same questions every time. And [01:33:30] the first one is that fantasy dinner party. Ooh. Okay. [01:33:35] Three guests, dead or alive. Who would you have? [01:33:40]

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): I would say if it was, um, [01:33:45] celebrity guests kind of thing. Um, or even family or whatever. Three [01:33:50] guests that I would have. Probably Michelle Obama. [01:33:55] Oh, yeah. Right. Very inspirational woman. Um, even [01:34:00] when, you know, she had to give up her own role when her husband was president, the [01:34:05] kind of initiatives she took up. Et cetera. Um. I love [01:34:10] the way she’s brought up her family. Um, it’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Shame she doesn’t want to be president. [01:34:15]

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): That’s exactly what I think.

Payman Langroudi: She would win, for sure.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Make a great president.

Payman Langroudi: Although, although. [01:34:20] Although I don’t know about that, I’ve always been against sort of, uh, familial lines in, in, [01:34:25] in politics. Um, because why should it be? Why should it be Hillary Clinton? [01:34:30] And, you know, the Kennedys and the. Yeah. Uh, and so many other countries as well. But [01:34:35] she definitely would win. She definitely would win.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): She would make a great president. [01:34:40] So her. Yeah. And I think she would be game [01:34:45] for things. So I’ve watched her on like the Ellen Show. I’ve watched her with. Yeah. She’s cool. You [01:34:50] know. And and she would like we would play games. Right. [01:34:55] We would have like.

Payman Langroudi: And the dinner party, you mean? Yeah.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Yeah. Why not? And she would enjoy [01:35:00] that. And I think she would tell me about some games that we could play. By the way, do you cook? Yes [01:35:05] I do. Which, which.

Payman Langroudi: Which cuisine do you cook?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Everything.

Payman Langroudi: But is it like I love [01:35:10] cooking? Is it Sri Lanka or is it Chinese?

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): No, no. So I will cook like Singapore [01:35:15] crab.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Just just.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): You know, just.

Payman Langroudi: Cook Italian.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Food. I would make a good [01:35:20] Sunday roast, I bake, I. Yeah, yeah. Like food, like [01:35:25] feeds you. What would you.

Payman Langroudi: Serve on this? We’ll get to the other two guests.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): I would get to that later. Right. [01:35:30]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s go to the second skill.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): So James Corden. Oh yeah. So we could [01:35:35] do karaoke and he would be entertaining to. He’d be up for a I. [01:35:40] I love it when people like enjoy life. They love to sing. They love to dance a little [01:35:45] bit. You know, he’d be up for playing some games, he’d be up for dress up, etc.. Um, [01:35:50] and then so recently I have been [01:35:55] listening to a lot and reading a lot of Paul [01:36:00] Brunson’s books and things. So he [01:36:05] is the guy who’s on Married at First sight. He like, does all the interviewing, etc. [01:36:10] he also, um, uh, his part [01:36:15] does quite a bit of research on, um, is it, [01:36:20] uh, one of these dating websites? And [01:36:25] um, also does celebrity do dating. And recently he did a book [01:36:30] called finding uh, Find Love. And it’s about the dating world [01:36:35] and kind of like the he’s done huge amount of research [01:36:40] behind all this thing and how you should go about dating, how you should go about [01:36:45] it.

Payman Langroudi: Must be fascinating.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): So it is absolutely fascinating. Some of the things that he [01:36:50] says, like, you know, your first date should not be that you should go like, [01:36:55] you know, we hype up a first date, right? Oh my gosh. Go to a fancy restaurant, get [01:37:00] new clothes. This, that or the other. What you should actually do is go for a walk. Because imagine [01:37:05] you come back right from going to a fancy restaurant, this, that and the other. And this person is like, [01:37:10] not your cup of tea. Or they turned up like badly dressed or in there, and you think I made this [01:37:15] effort or I paid for this meal and look what she did or look what he did. So [01:37:20] it so just talking about those things and talking about like people’s love languages, [01:37:25] people’s negotiation languages, right. All those kind of things. Fascinating. What’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Surname [01:37:30] Paul.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Paul Brunson.

Payman Langroudi: Brunson. Yeah.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Paul. Carrick Brunson um, and he’s [01:37:35] done a few podcasts with the diary of the CEO Guy as well. Okay. So [01:37:40] yeah, very interesting kind of things. Um, and right now [01:37:45] I’m in the process of kind of like dating. So I thought, yeah, I’ll have [01:37:50] him at a dinner table and then he can say, Coco, you’re going about this wrong.

Payman Langroudi: Nice. Nice combination. [01:37:55]

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): This is what you need to do. So like, I, I went to his book launch and I [01:38:00] thought. And before that, I was like, I’m not going to date anybody. I’m not going to do anything. I’m going to get myself [01:38:05] like, all set already know what it is I want, etc.. [01:38:10] So it’s like a shopping list, right? You draw up your list and you think, these are my [01:38:15] negotiables, these are my non-negotiables. This is how I’m going to go about it. So it’s [01:38:20] it’s almost like studying for dentistry, right?

Payman Langroudi: So put it down to science [01:38:25] rather than art.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): No, no, no. And there is a science behind it, right. And you’ve [01:38:30] got to like it’s amazing when you delve into it. You think, wow, I did [01:38:35] not know these things. This is where I’ve been going wrong, right? And you’ve also got to realise [01:38:40] that, okay, you’re going to date somebody who, um, [01:38:45] like has a job, right? And works like long hours [01:38:50] etc. don’t then expect them to change for that. Yeah, right. You’re going to date [01:38:55] somebody who comes really well dressed up and has her nails done, [01:39:00] you know, has a wardrobe of great clothes, etc. loves handbags. Don’t [01:39:05] expect her to.

Payman Langroudi: Suddenly stop doing those things.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): Yeah, don’t expect to not buy her some [01:39:10] nice jewellery or whatever. Right. So no, the person you’re dating know what you’re going [01:39:15] in for that kind of stuff. So him definitely. I’d have to look [01:39:20] him up if it was, um, who’s going to cook at that party? I [01:39:25] would love Yotam Ottolenghi to cook. Yeah, right. I love his food, everything. [01:39:30] But I would have to set him aside and have my mum cook. [01:39:35] Everybody loves their mum’s cooking, right? But my mum is a great chef. She’s actually, [01:39:40] like, written like she’s on TV doing cooking programmes. She actually [01:39:45] has written a book about at the age of 70. Oh my goodness. She [01:39:50] always had this dream of writing a book. And so then she wrote [01:39:55] this book about how our family had gone from Sri Lanka to Malaysia. Her side of the family [01:40:00] to Malaysia. And how different cuisines [01:40:05] got kind of like intermingled with the family recipes. So the Chinese, the Malay, [01:40:10] the. And you use different spices and everything. So her book is a beautiful, [01:40:15] beautiful book. And she actually won an award at the World Gourmet Awards for her book. [01:40:20] So yeah. So I will have my mom cook. Amazing. And [01:40:25] if it’s like dead people, people who’ve gone by, I would say [01:40:30] I would have my grandparents to say to them, thank you for believing in me. My grandmother [01:40:35] always said, Coco, you always dress so lovely. You look great. You are [01:40:40] such a hard worker. I love everything about you. You’re going to do big things. [01:40:45] You know parents, grandparents believing in their kids, the things it can [01:40:50] do to them. That’s why my thing was going back to that eight year old kid who believed she could do [01:40:55] everything because her family believed in her.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): The support network around her, the teachers, [01:41:00] the everything. Um, and I’d have these two friends of mine who [01:41:05] passed away from breast cancer just to come back alive for me to say to them, look [01:41:10] at your families. They are thriving. And I just want them to kind of [01:41:15] come back and see that. And one of them actually said to me, both of them were like around [01:41:20] in that group whereby they were like, we’re [01:41:25] going to be here. We’re going to support you. Those do or die friends. But one, two weeks before she [01:41:30] died, she called me in to her hospital room and she said, Coco, [01:41:35] she goes, please leave your husband. She goes, [01:41:40] I don’t want more of our friends dying. And then you get left there and [01:41:45] this guy kill you off or something? Or something worse than [01:41:50] that happened to you. Please leave. You know, don’t fret about the little things in life. They [01:41:55] will. You will find a way. You know, she believed in me. And [01:42:00] literally one day I had this dream. Like she told me all this. She passed [01:42:05] away. And then when things had got sorted out with my divorce, whatever, [01:42:10] and I was more on an even keel, I’d had this dream of her in Holborn tube station. [01:42:15] Like walking down the stairs like, you know, we have a massive long escalator and waving [01:42:20] bye to me, like, as though I’ve watched over you and now you’re okay and I’m going. [01:42:25] And I thought, oh my gosh, like, what an amazing woman, you know? Um, [01:42:30] yeah. So if it’s like people I could bring back, I would bring them back. [01:42:35] But definitely that Paul Brunson guy. I need some advice from him. [01:42:40] Payman and mum would cook.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:42:45] been a massive, massive pleasure. I really, really enjoyed that. Thank you. Thank you for being so open and coming [01:42:50] all the way here as well.

Devina Lavan-Iswaran (Coco): It wasn’t far to come, but thank you for your time. [01:42:55] It’s been a pleasure.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks a lot.

[VOICE]: This is [01:43:00] Dental. Leaders the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [01:43:05] leaders in dentistry. Your [01:43:10] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

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