Payman Langroud…: Did you learn any Japanese?

Vicky Wilson: [foreign language 00:00:02].

Payman Langroud…: Apart from that?

Speaker 3: This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroud…: So Vicky, lovely to have you in the studio. Unfortunately, today, Prav’s not with us. So you’re not going to get the Prav questions, but I’m going to do my best to be him and myself.

Vicky Wilson: I can’t wait. Thanks so much for inviting me.

Payman Langroud…: My pleasure. My pleasure. So tell us a bit about yourself to start with. Where were you born? What kind of childhood did you have?

Vicky Wilson: I was born in Sidcup, just outside London. I’m an only child. We lived in Chislehurst for about four years, then we moved to Tunbridge Wells, and my dad got a job in Japan.

Payman Langroud…: Oh, what did he do?

Vicky Wilson: He was a money broker.

Payman Langroud…: Okay.

Vicky Wilson: And we moved to Tokyo, when I was four.

Payman Langroud…: Oh, really?

Vicky Wilson: Yeah.

Payman Langroud…: For how many years?

Vicky Wilson: A year.

Payman Langroud…: Do you remember?

Vicky Wilson: I do, it’s really bizarre. I think because it was so-

Payman Langroud…: Such a big change?

Vicky Wilson: … such a culture shock. It was so different. I remember things so clearly, from the steps walking down from where we lived, to the shops that I used to go to on my own. There was Muji. I remember Muji.

Payman Langroud…: Really?

Vicky Wilson: It was so safe there, mom used to let me, she could see from the window, walk down to the shop when I was five. It was so-

Payman Langroud…: The good old days.

Vicky Wilson: Yeah, it was so… The good old days. It so safe. Culturally, it was so different. Visually, it’s so different. And there weren’t that many expatriates there at the time.

Payman Langroud…: Something I’ve noticed, when I go to the Far East, is you suddenly understand why those Japanese tourists are taking pictures of banal stuff in London. Because you catch yourself taking pictures of post boxes and things, in Bangkok, or whatever, India. It’s such a different aesthetic, isn’t it?

Vicky Wilson: Yeah. And talking about pictures, one thing that stays with me more than anything, I couldn’t walk down the street without pictures, pictures, they-

Payman Langroud…: Because you were a foreigner?

Vicky Wilson: Or the Japanese would come up and say, “Can we take a picture?”

Payman Langroud…: Funny. Did you learn any Japanese?

Vicky Wilson: [foreign language 00:02:33]

Payman Langroud…: Apart from that? Because, I take that as a no.

Vicky Wilson: Limited. Very limited. It’s a regret, I have to say. Mom and dad, because it was such a culture shock and there was obviously no internet back then. For me, I really missed my grandparents, because I was very close to my grandparents at the time. And phone, speaking to them, it didn’t happen that often. So mom and dad sent me to Sacred Heart there, which was an international school. And that’s one thing, I wish I had a bit more of a voice then, say, “Send me to Japanese school,” because I would have picked it up. I understand where they were coming from at that point, it felt, “Can we send our daughter to…”

Payman Langroud…: I mean, it’s a big step.

Vicky Wilson: Big step.

Payman Langroud…: So then, where did you go after Japan?

Vicky Wilson: Came back to the UK.

Payman Langroud…: Okay.

Vicky Wilson: Just turned around.

Payman Langroud…: Do you remember the first time that you realised you were going to work in dentistry? How did it happen? What did you do? Because now, you’re a famous hygiene therapy.

Vicky Wilson: [inaudible 00:03:33].

Payman Langroud…: Key opinion leader, trainer.

Vicky Wilson: Maybe.

Payman Langroud…: But what was your first exposure? Did you get a job as a kid? What happened?

Vicky Wilson: Well, I was actually writing an article, last week, about my first exposure to dentistry when I had a fascination for dentistry. I remember going to the dentist with my mom, I must have been maybe eight, around that age, tickling her feet.

Payman Langroud…: While she was in the chair?

Vicky Wilson: While she was in the chair. I was fascinated. I remember this really clearly about what the dentist was doing. Moving forward, it came to work experience time.

Payman Langroud…: 16?

Vicky Wilson: Yeah. I remember going to Mark lane dental clinic in the city, my dad’s dentist, Sean. I used to go there for work experience. I went I think two years in a row. Then, I really decided… I tried physio. I knew I wanted to work in health care, I wanted to be practical, looking after people. I couldn’t envision myself sitting at a desk. It’s very creative. That’s another side of what I wanted to explore, but I really wanted to work and treat patients.

Payman Langroud…: So did you go train as a hygienist soon?

Vicky Wilson: I decided I wanted to go into dentistry, didn’t get the [inaudible 00:04:58].

Payman Langroud…: Yeah, me either. I begged Cardiff who finally let me in.

Vicky Wilson: This is common. Maybe I could have gone for dentistry, but now look at me.

Payman Langroud…: Should have looked at Cardiff.

Vicky Wilson: I wish I would have known.

Payman Langroud…: Cardiff needed people.

Vicky Wilson: So then I thought, “What can I do?” Hygiene was something I was interested in, but when I found that I could do therapy, that was it. I’ve never looked back. I’ve never really felt I want to continue to further my training to be a dentist. I love-

Payman Langroud…: Other than the work experience peace, you didn’t really work in the practise. You weren’t a dental nurse for any period of time, because that’s the usual sort of pathway, isn’t it?

Vicky Wilson: It is. When I was still at school, I was at Mayfield in a village close to where we lived. It was time for UCAS and I remember them frowning at me. What do you mean you’re not going to do UCAS? What do you mean you want to be a dental hygienist, dental therapist, what’s this? So they didn’t really help me. So I remember working on this with in… The work experience really helped me, because I had started the work experience at a young age and I was still at school. I went to the Eastman for an interview. That was the only one I went for.

Payman Langroud…: And you got it?

Vicky Wilson: They said, “Based on your A level results, yeah.”

Payman Langroud…: It’s a tough course, isn’t it?

Vicky Wilson: Really tough.

Payman Langroud…: I remember in dental school, I remember the hygienists were having a harder time of it than we were from the homework perspective, like the amount of work they had to do. It’s a very intense coarse. Hygiene is two years and then therapy is, what, three years? How does it work?

Vicky Wilson: it was I think 27 months.

Payman Langroud…: Was hygiene one year and therapies two years?

Vicky Wilson: It was less at the time when I did it. So I qualified in 2003. The hygiene is finished I think in September. Or no, July and we finished in the December, so it was a bit longer. But yeah, it was really tough.

Payman Langroud…: Do you remember the first time you drilled someone’s teeth?

Vicky Wilson: Phantom head?

Payman Langroud…: I remember that.

Vicky Wilson: You remember that? [crosstalk]

Payman Langroud…: Do you remember the first time you gave an injection?

Vicky Wilson: For me, that really-

Payman Langroud…: Was a big deal.

Vicky Wilson: That was a big deal. It was scary, but yeah, the Eastman was tough. But saying that, I did do, in that year out between, because I got the place deferred so it was a year, I did go and do some dental nursing. First day, I passed out on the floor.

Payman Langroud…: Why?

Vicky Wilson: This guy came in fallen off his bike, and it was too much blood, I was like, “I can’t. Oh my god, the poor guy.”

Payman Langroud…: You qualified. You went and worked in a few practises?

Vicky Wilson: I did a bit of low coming. I did some therapy work in an NHS practise.

Payman Langroud…: Which year was this?

Vicky Wilson: 2003. Then, I found the kind of practises that I wanted to work in. Then, I worked in Tunbridge Wells for a short amount of time. Then, I worked with James Gollnick in Berlin.

Payman Langroud…: That must’ve been a big change from wherever you’d come.

Vicky Wilson: It was brilliant.

Payman Langroud…: Yeah, brilliant practise, right?

Vicky Wilson: Amazing. James is just incredible to work for.

Payman Langroud…: He just wants to do things differently, doesn’t he? He wants do things better all the time. That’s the feeling I get from him. When we had him in here for the podcast, I felt like he just… Did you listen?

Vicky Wilson: He’s brilliant.

Payman Langroud…: He wants challenges, doesn’t he?

Vicky Wilson: He really does. I feel so fortunate to have had the opportunity to work with James. [crosstalk] so early in my career because it set a standard and I kind of… It built something in me that I really… You’ve got to work hard. I never ever minded doing anything extra, working hard, appreciating your team. We always felt so appreciated. He’d take us to Champneys as a tanks. I don’t know who else was getting that at the time. He was so inspirational. We had team meetings, no one else was doing that. Morning huddles at the beginning of the day. I would go through the whole list and that was brilliant.

Payman Langroud…: In the morning huddle, you’d say, “Mrs. so and so is coming in today.” Would it be about… When I was a dentist, the practises I worked in didn’t use to do morning huddles, so I’m not 100% clear on what happens. Is it, “Can we go that extra mile for her somehow?” It was that the idea?

Vicky Wilson: Well, yes. Everyone knows, exactly. You just pull out what are the highlights of the day, what patients are coming in, maybe what highlights there are specifically about specific patients so that everybody is in tune with it. Everyone knows, maybe we need to look about this… Everyone’s brought together. Although maybe we’re not in that surgery, we know what’s going on elsewhere. We know that maybe we want to say hi to them, follow up with them, maybe pop in if we can. It just brings everyone together. That, for me, is teamwork.

Payman Langroud…: Especially from the hygiene perspective. A hygienist can sometimes feel like an add on to a practise because of the number of days that hygienists are in sometimes. You were telling me the hygienist always gets the worst room.

Vicky Wilson: It’s maybe something that is frequently-

Payman Langroud…: If there’s a nurse missing, the hygienist is the one who loses the nurse and all of that sort of thing, if she’s lucky enough to have a nurse in the first place, right?

Vicky Wilson: Absolutely.

Payman Langroud…: Where I’m going with it is if you were involved in a morning huddle, then you do feel like part of that team.

Vicky Wilson: Absolutely.

Payman Langroud…: Whereas I can think of in practises in I was working at, the hygienist, even though they were a very capable hygienist, they just used to be up there in their room and not the part of the team because they were just there one day or two days a week, not exactly the same.

Vicky Wilson: But to be getting the most out of your team to be working in such an optimal way, that’s what you need as a hygienist or a therapists, always to feel part of the team. Sadly, a morning huddle is the way forward.

Payman Langroud…: We were talking about this before, I was asking you… I’ve been listening to your brilliant podcast, by the way, which we should talk about in a moment.

Vicky Wilson: Thank you.

Payman Langroud…: The podcast is called?

Vicky Wilson: Smile Revolution.

Payman Langroud…: Smile Revolution. Yeah, I’ve been listening to that. The funny thing about it is, I was saying to you that listening to the hygiene, there’s a thread that runs through them, that they’re not being used to the maximum of their education. They’re not being appreciated as much as they should be. I know I’ve certainly come across hygienists that have been in that situation, I’ve read some terrible things on that dentine hygiene group on Facebook about the way some people get treated, which is a scandal, but I didn’t realise even these high level hygienists, famous ones, key opinion leaders, American ones even, some of the ones you’ve been interviewing, have this thread going through them that they don’t feel 100% appreciated. Why’s that?

Vicky Wilson: I feel where we can in the future move forward is I think it comes down to our education. Frequently, dentists are trained separately to hygienists and therapists. We’re a team and frequently, I know some of the courses are changing now. The therapists start with some dentists in some of the training. This, I feel, is the way forward. Because we’re not trained together and there’s not-

Payman Langroud…: There’s a separation from the beginning.

Vicky Wilson: There’s a separation. If we’re training together, we’re understanding each other’s skill set, skill mix, and how to optimise on our skill set and amalgamating that together to work in the best way we can’t serve the patients. Utilising each one of our skill set is really key. That understanding and that open communication is fundamental. I think as education starts changing, this will eventually change. We’re really always constantly now working on open communication, some practises doing it through morning huddles. But the more we are attending conferences together, being invited to panel discussions together, round tables together-

Payman Langroud…: Okay, so this is the solution you’re saying, but am I right?

Vicky Wilson: You are right. 100%, Pay.

Payman Langroud…: That’s really sad, isn’t it?

Vicky Wilson: It is sad.

Payman Langroud…: I really didn’t realise it was such a common thing. I understood there is such a thing that the hygienist isn’t appreciated. But I didn’t realise how common that was. I mean, the solutions you’ve suggested are certainly one aspect, but the business solution, surely the answer comes in by a hygienists worth to the business being proven. So when you’re talking to a hygienist, is that aspect discussed in the teaching?

Vicky Wilson: Not at all.

Payman Langroud…: Not at all?

Vicky Wilson: We’re not trained in business.

Payman Langroud…: Well, neither are we.

Vicky Wilson: But the business side of things, sorry, was that what you were meaning?

Payman Langroud…: Yeah.

Vicky Wilson: So listening to James Gollnicks podcast, he highlighted something beautiful that he does. He’s such a great leader. He talks to his team and finds out if there’s something maybe that’s bothering them or-

Payman Langroud…: Yeah, he was saying anonymously-

Vicky Wilson: Absolutely. Now, this is a great thing for dentists I feel, to ask all team members is there something, specifically hygienists, therapists, since we’re talking about this, “Is there something that we can work on together to optimise on what you’re doing to best serve the patients better? How can we work together?” So facilitating that open conversation question time to get into understand a bit more about maybe the hygienist obstacles, how can they work better? I think that’s a great start for the listeners, some of them to start talking to hygienists to make sure they’re getting the most out of them, because-

Payman Langroud…: Or dentists, yeah.

Vicky Wilson: Yeah.

Payman Langroud…: Yeah. Well, I’m saying to you 25 years experience and I wasn’t aware.

Vicky Wilson: Exactly. Frequently, I talk to dentists. They’re so pro therapist, they work with therapists, they absolutely love their therapist. Then, we speak about do you really get all the roles or duties that a therapist can carry out? And they say, “Actually, if I’m really honest, maybe not.”

Payman Langroud…: Go on, list them. What are the ones that get missed?

Vicky Wilson: Now you’re testing me. It varies, obviously, from one dentist-

Payman Langroud…: They do fillings.

Vicky Wilson: Yeah, we do fillings.

Payman Langroud…: Perio.

Vicky Wilson: Perio, extractions.

Payman Langroud…: Extractions?

Vicky Wilson: Of primary teeth. [inaudible]

Payman Langroud…: Oh, really?

Vicky Wilson: Yeah, of primary teeth.

Payman Langroud…: I didn’t know that. I didn’t know that.

Vicky Wilson: Instal crowns, restorative.

Payman Langroud…: Whitening?

Vicky Wilson: whitening.

Payman Langroud…: Let’s not forget.

Vicky Wilson: I think maybe sometimes the grey area is in how far can we go without restorative?

Payman Langroud…: Yeah. Up to the pulp, right?

Vicky Wilson: Absolutely, impermanent teeth.

Payman Langroud…: Interestingly, [inaudible 00:16:11], we’re getting a lot more therapists on the concept course. I’m not sure, is it because it’s a self selecting thing? Is it that if you’re a therapist and you’re coming up with 1,000 pounds to go on a composite course, does that mean you’re a super ambitious, super on it therapists? But the results we’re getting are better from the therapists than from the dentist. We say it to them every time at the course. We start the course by saying, “Who are you? What do you do?” We say to them, “You’ve got a lot of pressure on you because we’re getting better results from therapists.” Now, is it because they are better? I’m not sure. I think the kind of therapist who chooses to come on such a course is a better therapist, maybe. But there’s several practises I know where the therapists are doing the cosmetic work really successfully.

Vicky Wilson: We don’t have such a-

Payman Langroud…: Therapists weren’t invented for this, were they? Let’s face that.

Vicky Wilson: No, therapists used to only work in community. It wasn’t until I was studying did it change that we could start to work in private practise. But I guess what we can do is more limited than a dentist. So our focus is specifically on let’s say restorative. If this is our interest, that’s what we focus on. It allows us to concentrate more on that skill set to enhance that, if that’s our interest.

Payman Langroud…: Do you know of examples where the business case has meant that the therapist model is the one that is the best business case? I mean, I know a good friend of mine who’s just bought a practise up north. He’s down south, he’s bought a practise up north. He’s got family member managing the practise and he’s going to have it therapists lead, whatever that means. Do you know lots of therapists where the business is reliant on them? At the PAD team, you must meat people like that, right?

Vicky Wilson: Well, yeah, it’s it’s happening more and more. More hygienists are opening their own practises now.

Payman Langroud…: Oh, yeah? Are success stories there for direct access?

Vicky Wilson: Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve spoken to one hygienists that would say they regret it for a second. They’re so happy they’ve done it. They are so happy.

Payman Langroud…: Are the banks lending and all that?

Vicky Wilson: Yeah, I believe. Also they make their finance plans in place from various different companies to support that. So it’s possible, it’s viable.

Payman Langroud…: But it’s not very common, is it?

Vicky Wilson: It’s not that common, but it’s becoming more common.

Payman Langroud…: Really.?

Vicky Wilson: Yeah, because I think the common thread through the hygienists that have done this say, “I get to what I want to do in my timeframe without any limitations.” They’re their own boss. It’s also more affordable to set up a hygiene clinic rather than a dental.

Payman Langroud…: As far as equipment?

Vicky Wilson: Yeah. You don’t need to set up every dental clinic.

Payman Langroud…: Do you know of a situation where the hygienist employs dentists as well? There must be some.

Vicky Wilson: Yes, there are some, because we need a dentist-

Payman Langroud…: To prescribe the therapy and the whitening.

Vicky Wilson: … to prescribe certain… Yeah, of course. But not all clinics have a dentist there all the time, but of course, they need a dentist for various different treatments.

Payman Langroud…: Can the therapist or a hygienist decide to give LA off their own back or does that have to be prescribed?

Vicky Wilson: They still need a prescription.

Payman Langroud…: Both?

Vicky Wilson: Yeah.

Payman Langroud…: Even for a LA [inaudible 00:19:59]?

Vicky Wilson: Yeah because [crosstalk]

Payman Langroud…: Really. You can’t decide to do that yourself?

Vicky Wilson: I don’t know if you’ve heard through BSDHT, the BADT, they are working on the prescribing rights.

Payman Langroud…: Are they working on the whitening as well or not?

Vicky Wilson: Well, it would be great, but that’s under the EU.

Payman Langroud…: Not anymore.

Vicky Wilson: Well, yeah. Watch this space, who knows? Times are changing. I think it’s such an exciting time to be in dentistry.

Payman Langroud…: Are you involved in these political movements?

Vicky Wilson: No, I’m not directly involved.

Payman Langroud…: You know the people?

Vicky Wilson: Yeah, I stay informed as much as I can.

Payman Langroud…: You do get involved with key opinion leader work. You did some work for us at Enlightened. You also did some work with Philips and all that. Some other companies too, right?

Vicky Wilson: Yeah.

Payman Langroud…: I noticed your podcast.

Vicky Wilson: They’re the main sponsor of my podcast, yeah.

Payman Langroud…: So tell me this. Tell me what is it about you that you’ve got you told me 6,000 hygienists in the country heads down doing their period treatment. How come you’re not head down, doing your period treatment? How come you’re doing a podcast and you’ve got this KOL thing going on and all that? What is it about you that’s different?

Vicky Wilson: I love treating patients. I wouldn’t say I wouldn’t go back to surgery. I’d love to see patients again, but at this moment in time, recently in the last couple of years, I’ve had children. A bit of a dream I’ve always thought about. How can we think of something new? How can we advance what we’re doing?

Payman Langroud…: Like James?

Vicky Wilson: Well, maybe he embedded it in me when I worked there.

Payman Langroud…: I’m sure it wasn’t you though.

Vicky Wilson: Yeah, I liked it. I have to be driven by my passion. Dentistry has always been since I started it, something that’s a passion has been driven to me. It’s a drive. You see your patients and you’re constantly thinking about what else can we do? That’s, I think going back to your question, why maybe I started Smile Revolution, is through the years of practising , my mind as I’m sure with many clinicians is constantly ticking over why you’re treating the patient. What’s this obstacle here? How can I deliver that better? How can we overcome this to reach this information before they came to us? What more can we as a profession offer to them? How can we fill in the gaps? Because there are obstacles. At the end of the day, dental disease is the most prevalent preventable disease globally.

Vicky Wilson: What can we do more? There are so many outstanding physicians in surgery, in clinics, treating patients doing a fabulous job. But there are some people like yourself and myself that stepped away from it into something else to still serve the public’s oral health, but in a different way. This is where Smile Revolution came about. I love communication. I think that’s probably my biggest interest and has been throughout my work. How can we communicate better? How can we resonate in the minds of the patients more? How can we change patients perceptions, thoughts on oral health? What can we do differently? Another side of who I am is I love film, and television, and taking people on a journey through-

Payman Langroud…: Media.

Vicky Wilson: … the arts, media, yeah, creative. That emotional journey is something that’s fascinating for me. Communication for me was really a real interest. There are so many fabulous clinicians, as I’ve said, out there treating patients that have got so much to share. So going back to your question and how the Smile Revolution evolved, maybe why I’m working with different brands is I went to them and I presented my idea to create something to advance what we’re doing. I created a pilot, for instance, for the podcast. Dentsply Sirona are all about empowering the profession, especially hygienists and therapists. They thought, “Yeah, we want to be part of this. We want to come on board to support the advancement of the profession, empower the hygienist dental therapists.” I realised it’s not just the hygienist-

Payman Langroud…: What do you mean by empower? I notice you ask all your guests that question. What do you mean by that? Are you an empowered hygienist?

Vicky Wilson: Are you fulfilled? Are you driven by what you do? Are you happy in what you do? Because on the forum, as you read, not everybody is.

Payman Langroud…: No, there’s some terrible stories.

Vicky Wilson: How can we support each other? I think the profession is amazing. Hygienists and therapists, we always meet at conferences. Everyone is so nice. We all get on, we really all get on, we have a great time. We don’t have conferences obviously enough, but sharing that through a podcast, sharing what individual people are doing as we’re doing now, we wouldn’t necessarily have time to have this one on one conversation any other time apart from maybe a podcast recording to share amongst the listeners, for others to gain an insight.

Payman Langroud…: Yeah, yeah, I get all that, but what is it about you?

Vicky Wilson: I don’t know. I create different things maybe. I don’t know. We all see things differently, but I’ve looked at what interests me. I really go with what I’m passionate about.

Payman Langroud…: I feel like you’re less interested in money, more interested in impact.

Vicky Wilson: I am very interested in impact.

Payman Langroud…: I thought you were going to say, “I am interested in money.” I’m sure you are, but you know what I mean? I mean, you could be working five days a week.

Vicky Wilson: Oh yeah.

Payman Langroud…: Doing loads of whitening and stuff.

Vicky Wilson: I could, sure.

Payman Langroud…: You’ve done the composite course. You could be that critical cat. But the way that you’ve structured it, you’re looking beyond that. It’s almost like a helicopter above, looking down. Did you have mentors though that way? I mean, did you see someone else do something like that, that inspired you? Made you think… The first time we ever met, you said to me, “I want to demystify dentistry for the public.” Rhona Eskander is really into this idea too. Was it that eight year old kid dentist experience that made you want to be the demystifyer of things?

Vicky Wilson: I don’t know.

Payman Langroud…: What is it about you?

Vicky Wilson: I think, Pay, a large part of maybe how the Smile Revolution evolved and other things I’m working on is from my dream of being involved in the arts, creating.

Payman Langroud…: Yeah, I noticed that on your Instagram. There’s beautiful images and videos and things like that. Were you good at drawing?

Vicky Wilson: No, I’m terrible. I’m terrible at drawing.

Payman Langroud…: Just like buying art.

Vicky Wilson: Just buying. I love ceramics. I love pottering. I love making jewellery, I love embellishing things. When I was young, when I was-

Payman Langroud…: Still young, still young.

Vicky Wilson: Mom sent me to performing art school because I was so shy. I used to do other festivals and do loads of plays. The reason I went to dental school because I wanted to be able to have something that I loved, a job that I could go in and out of, because my dream was to go to Rhada.

Payman Langroud…: Oh really?

Vicky Wilson: I’ve always liked writing, I like writing scripts.

Payman Langroud…: Do you still secretly want to be an actress?

Vicky Wilson: I’ve done a bit of that.

Payman Langroud…: I do. Is that where this is all going?

Vicky Wilson: You’re tapping into how is Smile Revolution…

Payman Langroud…: I get it, I get it.

Vicky Wilson: I like to create, I like to push boundaries. I have to live by my passion. That is what I’m very true to. I wouldn’t say that I’ve ever lived a day going to work and not loved every minute of it. Now with the children, I want to be with them. But I want to love still my career and I want to make it work. So I’m very focused on I guess building a life and a balance and an overall kind of well being that I feel balance within living my dream in all areas.

Payman Langroud…: How do you feel about balancing this obvious ambition that you’ve got with kids?

Vicky Wilson: It’s a juggling act.

Payman Langroud…: It is, isn’t it?

Vicky Wilson: Yeah, it’s really-

Payman Langroud…: You’re super organised.

Vicky Wilson: Yeah, but when you’re fathoming out a business model, it’s not easy. I definitely got a bit sick last year because I was working so late, until one, two in the morning. I’ve always been somebody that can work late at night. Yet, I found that I got sick and I didn’t get better for six months. It was a chesty cough the whole time. So now, I respect my body. I go to bed when I need to as much as I can. I feel a bit more aligned. I know exactly what I’m doing when I’m doing it more so now, but things are evolving.

Vicky Wilson: It’s not just the podcast I’m working on. So it’s a juggling act. But I was just saying outside to Laura, “You have to be good as a mother, you have to be healthy, you have to be well, in a great mindset to be great for the children and to be great for your business.” So it’s constantly realigning. I’m trying to always be true to myself as I feel the success of anything is really being true to yourself and being driven by what you really believe. Specifically, at this moment in time, I don’t feel like I’m being clinic, looking after or treating patients, caring for patients, and not being there for the children.

Payman Langroud…: That’s cool.

Vicky Wilson: So this is right for me now. So I’m trying to create my optimal dream.

Payman Langroud…: In my experience, you’ll look back on this time and you’ll only realise how significant the things you were doing are later. Once you’ve been around a little while, you suddenly realised that that point, you’re doing something now, it’s kind of uncharted territory. You’re going to look back on this time in six, seven years time and think, “Thank goodness I did that then.” In retrospect, it all ends up being a lot more significant. When you’re doing is, there’s so many unknowns that you sometimes feel like you’re not doing the right thing. Women particularly I’ve noticed are really hard on themselves in this respect. Want to be perfect, want to be too perfect. The perfect mom, the perfect this, the perfect that. We’re not perfect.

Vicky Wilson: You know what I’ve learned recently? You’ve got to give yourself a break. Be kind to yourself.

Payman Langroud…: Yeah, all of that stuff. All of that self care stuff. Super important, super important. Tell me about Dubai, because you were living and working out there for a while. How did that come about?

Vicky Wilson: 10 years I was there.

Payman Langroud…: 10 years?

Vicky Wilson: Yeah.

Payman Langroud…: Bloody hell.

Vicky Wilson: That was a real journey. It was hard because… I have to say, when I started working with James in Berlin, I would never have left that clinic ever. But this opportunity came up. I moved to Dubai, I got a job out there. It was with an English guy. He opened up a practise and he actually knew somebody that my mom used to work with that was a Maxfax at Queen Vic. So yeah, it was a similar world. I was working there for a while, not that much. Then, I had a few gaps in work. Then, I did find an excellent practise eventually to work in.

Payman Langroud…: The one with…

Vicky Wilson: Doctors and Associates.

Payman Langroud…: Yeah, very media orientated. So it suited you?

Vicky Wilson: Yeah, I really enjoyed it. He gave me the free run to create oral health promotional projects. I started working… This is where my work really began working with industry. I worked with Philips, I created this programme for schools with an animal therapist from an autism conference I went to. Is was really different. It really went down a treat in the schools, the children love the little show we put on to support oral health there. David Rhodes was very supportive of everything that I did. I started some seminars within the clinic. I ran those over an evening. Then, I started being invited to lecture.

Payman Langroud…: So it all kicked off in Dubai really, all of this stuff?

Vicky Wilson: Well yeah, I mean, I was how many years into my career before leaving the UK. Maybe three years into my career. So I was young still. Then, I built that in Dubai. In this time, there was no one… Nobody recognised dental hygienists. So we weren’t allowed to have really group organisation meetings there. There was no… We used to like have little meetups, but there was a bit of… I guess they frowned upon… It was limiting to create an organisation. But until I went to the government or the Emirates Medical Association or something like that, under the government, we said to them, “Look, we need to set something up for hygienists.” So then it was a process. It honestly took me nearly 10 years, working with colleagues there to get papers to convince people.

Payman Langroud…: Red tapes a nightmare there.

Vicky Wilson: There’s so much red tape. Speaking to officials there and getting to speak to these officials is so challenging.

Payman Langroud…: If they turn up. I’ve had a few meetings like that in Dubai. The guy didn’t turn up. But what about living and working in Dubai as a general? I mean, would you say… It’s nice to go for a holiday right?

Vicky Wilson: Yeah.

Payman Langroud…: What’s it like living there?

Vicky Wilson: I mean, I had a great time.

Payman Langroud…: Did you stay there during August and all that? The killer hot months?

Vicky Wilson: I used to travel back to the UK a lot pretty much because I was working six days a week and then I would have nearly two weeks off. That’s how I worked my time. I was in and out.

Payman Langroud…: Were you in the UK every six weeks?

Vicky Wilson: Not the UK, but I’d come back somewhere or go somewhere. It was great. I mean, I wasn’t married there, we didn’t have children, and it was different. I had a great time.

Payman Langroud…: Bet you did.

Vicky Wilson: Really had a great time.

Payman Langroud…: Half way to Vietnam and Thailand and all that as well, right?

Vicky Wilson: Yes, I used to go all over. I really had a great time. I met some great people there, had a great life.

Payman Langroud…: Were your patients mainly expats?

Vicky Wilson: A lot of expats, but a lot of locals as well.

Payman Langroud…: Expats from all over the world?

Vicky Wilson: All over the world. I think this what really started my interest in… Not started. This is I guess what allowed my interest in communication to really grow because I realised that what I was saying to me being the English wasn’t working when I was speaking to the French. That’s beautiful and that really pushes you as a clinician to enhance what you’re saying, to really understand and work on understanding people.

Payman Langroud…: Very true.

Vicky Wilson: It was brilliant.

Payman Langroud…: Give me some nuggets of having treated so many different populations. What are French patients like compared to English patients? Because I’ve got my view on this. Go on.

Vicky Wilson: Well, in France-

Payman Langroud…: Or German patients.

Vicky Wilson: Yeah, in France, they don’t have hygienists.

Payman Langroud…: Is that right?

Vicky Wilson: Yeah. I worked for David Rhodes, his friend. That was amazing because I had to introduce-

Payman Langroud…: Explain it.

Vicky Wilson: Well, he’d worked with hygienists elsewhere, but integrating that within the team was… There were some other fabulous hygienists there, but integrating that within the team was a challenge and working with so many different dentists from all over the world and working with them as best we can. But it was a challenge. So yeah, I guess you learn different words obviously from different languages to make sure that you try and build a rapport. Going back to James’ podcast, it’s all about the relationship with the patient. What resonates with one culture doesn’t resonate with another culture. So you adapt.

Vicky Wilson: I think one of the biggest nuggets for any physician leaving maybe the UK, if they’re working in the UK, and working abroad, wherever you go, one thing I let… You can’t take your model of how it is here and how optimal maybe it is here and copy and paste that somewhere else. You have to adapt. You have to be open to adapting. That’s I guess one of the greatest things really I learned there and became I guess able to do, and happy, and comfortable to adapt, which has been a skill set that’s really helped me I feel. I’m not scared of change, I embrace change. For instance, I was giving a lecture for Health Education England last week. 20 minutes before, me and my colleague, we received our presentation had been totally changed.

Payman Langroud…: What do you mean?

Vicky Wilson: They transformed the whole presentation.

Payman Langroud…: Why?

Vicky Wilson: Because some other people have looked at it and they decided that we needed to tweak it. So going for a presentation, you kind of know what you’re saying, you know what slide’s coming next.

Payman Langroud…: Without consulting you?

Vicky Wilson: No. We were warned that it may happen. That’s quite nerve wracking going in, but you know where you’re going. You know your hooks, you know what slide’s coming next. My eyesight is not great at the best of times. I’m looking down at a laptop, not knowing what slide’s coming next. A background chat around this slide. But I guess one of the skills that I learned living in Dubai, being okay with change is okay. We managed to pull it off as scary as it was at the time. But being able to adapt-

Payman Langroud…: What’s the best thing about living and working in Dubai?

Vicky Wilson: Life experience. Being okay with not being set in a way. Changing, adapting, being open to listen.

Payman Langroud…: What’s the worst thing?

Vicky Wilson: Things really took time. It tested your patience, but that’s a good thing. Really tested your patience. You don’t get an answer. You never get an answer on something and you have to find out.

Payman Langroud…: It feels like they’re figuring it out as they go, aren’t they?

Vicky Wilson: Yeah.

Payman Langroud…: I mean, you’re saying when you got there, there were hardly any hygienist, and then 10 years later, by the time you left, you were trying to make a hygienist association.

Vicky Wilson: Well, we did.

Payman Langroud…: But that’s how long it takes, right?

Vicky Wilson: Yeah.

Payman Langroud…: And in that 10 years, they created a whole new part of Dubai, aren’t they?

Vicky Wilson: Yeah, it’s unrecognisable. I’m sure if I go back now, I wouldn’t recognise it.

Payman Langroud…: Yeah, it’s a funny town. They’re just making it up as they’re going along, aren’t they? And in a way, who knows man, like 1,000 years ago, when London was built, probably this was the way things happened, right? And a lot of people say a lot of things about Dubai, but it’s impressive, what they’re doing.

Vicky Wilson: It’s impressive.

Payman Langroud…: You can’t get away from how impressive that achievement is.

Vicky Wilson: The one thing is, one, great, they’re open. They’re open to support what you’re doing. They’re open to change. I think it happens a lot… Obviously, it happens a lot quicker there.

Payman Langroud…: Yeah, yeah.

Vicky Wilson: It may have taken a long time to establish the hygiene organisation-

Payman Langroud…: But you did it, in the end?

Vicky Wilson: … but it happened. Did it. And it’s still running now.

Payman Langroud…: Is it? Is it? That must feel good?

Vicky Wilson: Yeah, they’ve got so many members now.

Payman Langroud…: And I noticed, when I was looking at David’s website, there was a lot of Filipino stuff as well? A lot of the NHS now, is being nursed by Filipinos. The cosmopolitan nature of that town is just crazy, isn’t it?

Vicky Wilson: It’s enriching.

Payman Langroud…: So then coming back, when you came back here, which was not long ago. How long ago, about three, four years?

Vicky Wilson: Three years ago.

Payman Langroud…: How did that feel? Going from the sunshine and all that, and the-

Vicky Wilson: Cold.

Payman Langroud…: … land of possibilities? Yeah.

Vicky Wilson: Cold. Do you know that I missed the weather-

Payman Langroud…: I bet.

Vicky Wilson: From the UK.

Payman Langroud…: Oh, oh, when you were there, you missed it?

Vicky Wilson: Because you don’t have the seasons.

Payman Langroud…: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Vicky Wilson: So really embraced coming home. It was time for me to come home. I missed my family.

Payman Langroud…: That is a long time.

Vicky Wilson: Yeah, my mom wasn’t very well. So, that was really good. It was a good time to come home. I couldn’t have chosen to come home… We couldn’t have chosen to come home at a better time. Because we were thinking about going back after we had our first daughter.

Payman Langroud…: Oh, were you?

Vicky Wilson: But then, it just felt right to come home. Family support is so important when you’ve got children.

Payman Langroud…: Sure.

Vicky Wilson: And I’m fortunate enough to still have my mom and dad around to help me.

Payman Langroud…: So it’s kind of gone full circle. You’re back in Tunbridge Wells.

Vicky Wilson: Yeah. I have to say I never envisaged myself back Tunbridge Wells. Now, I’m there.

Payman Langroud…: A bit different, isn’t it? Compared to the German banker you were treating in Dubai, compared to the gentle ladies of Tonbridge Wells that you must have been treating after that. What about kids? Tell me about kids. I mean, your particular way of bringing up kids. What would you say? And juggle, expand on it for me.

Vicky Wilson: My way of bringing… I just want them to have a fun life, and to be exposed to us as much, and give them as many opportunities as they can. And for me, it’s really important that I’m around as much as I can, because my husband’s not always around. And I’m there for them as much as I can be.

Payman Langroud…: He’s on projects, away.

Vicky Wilson: Yeah, frequently. And it’s interesting. So, one part of the Smile Revolution is something called Baby Smile Revolution.

Payman Langroud…: Oh, yeah.

Vicky Wilson: Which is softly launched. But anyway, it’s a series of children’s books on oral health. I get the girls to be involved in that. So we’ve got audio books, and Sophia and Alice sing in the book while Sophia does in the first book. Now, Sophia and Alice are recording a podcast with me.

Payman Langroud…: What the hell?

Vicky Wilson: So I’m getting them involved in everything I’m doing?

Payman Langroud…: I like that.

Vicky Wilson: From the age of two and three.

Payman Langroud…: Amazing.

Vicky Wilson: I worked when I was younger. I was only 15, or something. And exposing them to what I’m doing, I think it’s a good thing.

Payman Langroud…: Sure. Sure.

Vicky Wilson: It’s fun. I’m very passionate about what I do and I think it does rub off on them.

Payman Langroud…: Of course, it does. Of course, it does. I mean, my kids know this office very well.

Vicky Wilson: Exactly.

Payman Langroud…: You’ve seen those stickers on the ping pong table here.

Vicky Wilson: Yeah.

Payman Langroud…: Every time my kids come to the office, they add one sticker to the thing. If you ruled the world, what would you change regarding the whole dentist/hygienist relationship? You said you would have them train together.

Vicky Wilson: I would say I’d like everybody to feel the team to feel as inclusive as it possibly could be, to be working as optimally together as possible, that everybody feels fully fulfilled in what they’re doing, mixing the skillset as best we can.

Payman Langroud…: When I was a dentist, I used to want the hygienist to back up what I was selling. Yeah? I still want to give a treatment plan to the patient. I would want my hygienist, while she was doing her bit, to figure out where the patient was with that plan. Is the patient going to go ahead or not? And give more information regarding that and come back to me and tell me, yes or no, or how it’s going, or whatever. Is that wrong? Is that sacrilege? What is that? I mean, we’re talking selling dentistry, right? Can the hygienist get involved in that?

Vicky Wilson: Ethically, of course.

Payman Langroud…: Yeah. But do they? It’s rare. I remember talking to my hygienist about this, sometimes back then, this was a while ago, and some of them were annoyed with me for even suggesting it. It’s interesting, because as soon as you say the word selling, people get worries with ethics. But leaving those two things aside we can use, we can use euphemisms if you like, educating the patient or whatever you want. But I think, if you want this utopia of the hygienist being respected and given the opportunity, that the business case is huge, right? The hygienist can add hugely to the business-

Vicky Wilson: They can.

Payman Langroud…: If, one, they become busy, right? That’s important for any practise. And the hygienist has a big influence on that. Is that right? Yeah.

Vicky Wilson: Huge.

Payman Langroud…: Yeah. Because some hygienists will just do what they’re going to do, but others will find the three month recall type patients, whatever it is, the root planing side of it. The whitening, it really annoys me so much on the whitening.

Vicky Wilson: Well, what you touched on, you said was I right in doing that? I mean that comes down to the communication of you as a dentist with your team. Absolutely, it’s treatment recommended for the patients oral health. That’s not… Sales is ethical, but you’re on the same page. That comes down to the team huddle. If you’re going to go with that philosophy in the morning. If you know someone’s coming in and this is on their treatment plan, prepping them, ensuring that their prevention is in place. That their oral hygiene is as optimal as it potentially can be and needs to be.

Payman Langroud…: Yeah, but I want the hygienist to go beyond oral hygiene.

Vicky Wilson: Absolutely, of course they can.

Payman Langroud…: To talk about the massive plan I was putting together.

Vicky Wilson: Yeah, but of course. This is the key and this is-

Payman Langroud…: In the best practises that you’ve been at, is that the way it’s looked at?

Vicky Wilson: Absolutely.

Payman Langroud…: Really?

Vicky Wilson: We have something coming soon.

Payman Langroud…: Oh, do we?

Vicky Wilson: We do, to support exactly what you’re saying.

Payman Langroud…: Really?

Vicky Wilson: Yeah.

Payman Langroud…: Because that’s so important. Once the hygienist starts doing things like that, then they’re essential to the team. Once they’re essential… We had a lady working in Enlightened who was a hygienist in Canada. She was saying in her particular state, in Alberta, the hygienists used to make more money for the practise than the dentist because they were doing fluoride treatments day in, day out. Whitening treatments day in, day out. She was super respected because the business case was there.

Vicky Wilson: Absolutely.

Payman Langroud…: I feel like rather than focusing on respect me more, you’ve got to prove it to a practise by-

Vicky Wilson: 100%.

Payman Langroud…: … being that important to the practise.

Vicky Wilson: But it’s transitioning. I don’t know if you’ve listened to, for instance, Melonie Prebble’s podcast.

Payman Langroud…: I did, I did.

Vicky Wilson: It’s about understanding as well, and Claire Barry, the business behind dentistry and your value and actually what money you’re bringing to this. To buy your own equipment. All these additional things, but understanding your value. What it is, what it essentially goes back to. Being able to communicate-

Payman Langroud…: Adding value, adding value.

Vicky Wilson: Exactly, adding value but by understanding fundamentally your value, to be able to communicate that to the team. Essentially going back, what we have to come is the Profitable Hygienist, which is to be launched in the next couple of months, which is an online platform of modules that focuses for dentist and the dental team on excellence. Optimal excellence of care, delivering the most excellent care in the most profitable setting for every hygiene department.

Payman Langroud…: What is it? Online education?

Vicky Wilson: Online modules.

Payman Langroud…: Nice.

Vicky Wilson: To support the dentist and the team in getting to that.

Payman Langroud…: Nice.

Vicky Wilson: With Melonie Prebble and Flo Cooper.

Payman Langroud…: I don’t know Flo. Who is she?

Vicky Wilson: She’s a wonderful hygienist. She’s based in Scotland.

Payman Langroud…: Excellent.

Vicky Wilson: She’s got a lot of experience in business in dentistry from the US from training there similar to Mao.

Payman Langroud…: What would be the model? Is it a SaaS model? Would you sell these courses?

Vicky Wilson: Yeah, it’d be-

Payman Langroud…: Would it be a monthly subscription?

Vicky Wilson: … subscription. This is exactly what we’re working on. Whatever we’re working-

Payman Langroud…: When do I envision this will launch?

Vicky Wilson: It’s the beginning of this year. So we actually have a course coming up that you’re part of at the end of February. So soon after that, it’s going to be available to support empowering the hygienists and dental therapists, supporting the dentist to communicate, to ensure that every team member is getting the most out of what they can to be delivering the best care to the patient and being as profitable as possible for the clinics.

Payman Langroud…: Ideally, those two should go hand in hand.

Vicky Wilson: Exactly.

Payman Langroud…: That’s the way it should be. We were talking about when behaviour change, which is a massive part of the hygienist role, education and changing behaviour. One thing that… I talk to dentists about this. Whenever the patient’s brushing their teeth, most of the time, they’re trying to make their teeth whiter or keep them white. We’re focused on the gums, but patients really aren’t. Now obviously, our role is to focus them on the gums, of course. But I was saying to you, and it came out in that podcast, what I was saying to you was we should use the fact that patients are brushing their teeth or would like to brush their teeth to make their teeth whiter to change behaviour and give the health benefit. Interestingly, it came up with Claire. She said something lovely. It was like bring them in on what they want and then tell them what they need. It should be part of the training. Do they train you in hygiene school on behaviour change? They must do.

Vicky Wilson: There’s a small section on behavioural change and I think for the dentist too. But it’s not-

Payman Langroud…: I don’t think we had it. It was years ago. They said, “Brush your teeth like this with the brush at that angle.” They didn’t say how do you get someone to change what they’re doing. The psychological side of it. Although, I’m sure these days, it’s much more in the curriculum.

Vicky Wilson: Well interestingly, I don’t believe… It’s more than when I studied, but I don’t believe it’s still a strong or a heavy module. I’m currently involved in the module for behavioural change in the masters at the Eastman, that module. It’s all quite new to all the students doing the masters. They certainly aren’t aware of many aspects of behavioural change, which we cover within the module.

Payman Langroud…: So you’re deep in this right now?

Vicky Wilson: I love it. I love this topic. When I was in Dubai, I wanted to do another degree or something. When I first studied and left dental school, it wasn’t as available as it is now for hygienists and therapists to do masters and other degrees. But I did find an online course and I did a BSC in oral health promotion, which is what I did my thesis on communication and behavioural change.

Payman Langroud…: So behavioural change is kind of your bag.

Vicky Wilson: It’s my bag. I love it. That’s I guess the basis of the Smile Revelation. It’s all about behaviour change to a point. That’s the long term focus.

Payman Langroud…: Well, if you think of the famous Prav questions that he always likes to ask, I feel like I need to ask his questions because he’s not here.

Vicky Wilson: Go for it.

Payman Langroud…: It’s your funeral. It’s his favourite question.

Vicky Wilson: I’ve heard, yeah, I have to say.

Payman Langroud…: On that legacy fund, how would you like to be remembered, A, by the profession and by your peers and so forth, and B, by your kids? You don’t have to die. Let’s just say what would you like your legacy to be?

Vicky Wilson: I guess, by the profession, somebody that’s there, working with everyone to support the profession, working together with everyone to promote oral health and supporting them in that and bringing the profession together.

Payman Langroud…: Do hygienists argue with each other the way that dentistry does?

Vicky Wilson: I don’t think-

Payman Langroud…: I can’t imagine it.

Vicky Wilson: I don’t know, I’ve never been exposed to anything that happens.

Payman Langroud…: Dentists argue on Facebook and all that. It’s almost under the guise of I’m doing this for the patient. One guy will say, “Invisalign.” and then the other guy will say, “Invisalign is rubbish.” The third guy… Get three dentists together and get four different opinions.

Vicky Wilson: I’d like to say my exposure to the profession, and I said earlier, I feel so fortunate to be a therapist and be surrounded by incredible colleagues. Everybody, I’m honestly exposed to, is lovely. That’s what makes me so happy to do the Smile Revolution podcast, because I get to interview all these wonderful people. It’s not just hygienists and therapists, I interview lots of dentists as well. I think we’re so lucky. I don’t like to ever be exposed to negativity, though, I have to say. If I feel it coming my way, maybe I’ll take a diversion, because it doesn’t feed me Why bring yourself down by something. Let’s look at the positive here. Even if you have a challenge to face, let’s look at how we can overcome it and grow from it together.

Payman Langroud…: And what about advice for your kids? If you had to give your kids, two or three, all our children, a couple of pieces of advice, what are your top tips?

Vicky Wilson: Have fun in everything you do. My husband’s always-

Payman Langroud…: That’s a goody.

Vicky Wilson: … always, always saying that, “Whatever you do have fun in it,” and be driven by your passion. Make sure you enjoy life. If you’re driven by your passion, you can’t go wrong, because you’re being true to yourself.

Payman Langroud…: Are you saying I should go for that international DJ job?

Vicky Wilson: Yes, definitely.

Payman Langroud…: All right.

Vicky Wilson: Turning it back.

Payman Langroud…: I’m out of it. That’s it, I’ve had enough. I’m doing the tour, Sanj.

Vicky Wilson: Sorry, Sanj.

Payman Langroud…: Sorry, Sanj. It’s been fun, but I’ve got to go on a DJ tour.

Vicky Wilson: It’s a bit scary going in the unknown sometimes, but that’s the greatest thing, because you discover and you really learn. The hardest things you throw yourself into, the greatest things you learn. I think that.

Payman Langroud…: That’s true. It’s true. It’s that being comfortable with the uncomfortable, isn’t it?

Vicky Wilson: Well, that’s what I was going to say. I feel very good. I’m fortunate to have such an incredible mom and dad family have always been there for me. And-

Payman Langroud…: I hear that and it’s lovely thing to say, but you’re the only child, so you haven’t got this context that I’m going to do validate. My parents, and my brother’s parents are exactly the same parents, but my brother and I are very different people, like very different.

Vicky Wilson: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroud…: I take more risks than he does.

Vicky Wilson: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroud…: He’s very, super conservative. You’re saying thanks, of course, say thanks to your parents, because they’re great. I get it, yeah?

Vicky Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroud…: But it’s so nuanced, you know? Your two kids are so close to each other in age, but you must already see they’re totally different.

Vicky Wilson: Very true. Very true. I remember reading, so if you’ve got a really safe background, you take more risks-

Payman Langroud…: Sometimes, yeah.

Vicky Wilson: Because you can. Maybe that’s what I feel in a way, but I’m mostly that risk taker. I thrive on the adrenaline of taking the biggest risks, I feel.

Payman Langroud…: Really?

Vicky Wilson: I do. I like-

Payman Langroud…: I like that.

Vicky Wilson: I like it.

Payman Langroud…: I like that too.

Vicky Wilson: I like it, because you don’t know what’s going to come and it pushes you to really work to get-

Payman Langroud…: Yeah, but look, for some people, that sounds like a total nightmare.

Vicky Wilson: Oh, absolutely. I know.

Payman Langroud…: I think about my wife, yeah? In a room full of strangers, she’s amazing. Like she handles the room, she talks to the right people. If someone’s not involved, she gets them involved or whatever. Me, I’m a bit sort of uncomfortable in my own skin, a bit shy in a room full of strangers, but I can stand on stage and talk. For her, that’s like the biggest nightmare ever, isn’t it? It’s so interesting that you know that different people that thrive on different-

Vicky Wilson: It’s so true.

Payman Langroud…: … situations.

Vicky Wilson: That’s the beauty, isn’t it? Everyone’s different.

Payman Langroud…: It’s been lovely having you.

Vicky Wilson: Thank you for having me.

Payman Langroud…: And I don’t know should we put this out as a simulcast? No. For now, you’re a dental leader. Nice to have the first representative from dental hygiene therapy. Well, thanks a lot for doing it. I’m sorry, Prav wasn’t here to enjoy it.

Vicky Wilson: I’m sorry, Prav. Yeah, thanks for having me.

Payman Langroud…: Thanks a lot, Vicky. Cheers.

Speaker 3: This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Speaker 4: Thank you for tuning in guys to the Dental Leaders podcast. I’ve just got a little request to make. If you’ve got a suggestion of somebody else who we should be interviewing or somebody who’s got a really strong story, powerful story to share with us, please send us a message and help us connect with that individual so we can bring their stories to the surface.

Payman Langroud…: Thank you so much for taking the time, guys. If you got some value out of it, think about sharing it with your friends and subscribing to the channel. Thank you guys.

Speaker 4: Don’t forget that six star review.