[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go [00:00:10] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:15] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:00:20]

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Zohaib Ali [00:00:25] Zhu to his buddies onto the podcast. So is a specialist [00:00:30] prosthodontist one of the dentists leading the whole bio emulation [00:00:35] movement in the UK. And I was first introduced to by emulation [00:00:40] ten years, eight, nine years ago. And I went to one of the events [00:00:45] in Berlin and it blew me away.

Zohaib Ali: That was about [00:00:50] ten years ago now. Yeah, something like that. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Blew me away. And it wasn’t the [00:00:55] only the content because the content was very good, but it was the production value [00:01:00] of some of the lectures at McLaren. Pascal Magnier was there. [00:01:05] Some of the screen that and I and I up [00:01:10] to that point, I was always sort of annoyed every time I went to an event and I’d say, you know, you [00:01:15] come to an event, at least make the AV brilliant. You know, something as simple as that. And [00:01:20] the AV was beyond brilliant. And then there was a party and there was, it [00:01:25] was it was just it was just I came out of it thinking, no way did anyone make any money [00:01:30] out of this event, you know? And it kind of instilled in me this idea that [00:01:35] it’s a weird thing. It’s a bit like being an NHS dentist. The more you pay attention, [00:01:40] the more you take care, the less money you make. Yeah, [00:01:45] um.

Zohaib Ali: You’re right. And thank you for having me on. It’s a pleasure. [00:01:50] Yeah. Um. So. Yeah, Berlin actually was ten years ago, [00:01:55] and. No, no, I wasn’t there, I wasn’t there, I was in my infancy. Um. 2014. [00:02:00]

Payman Langroudi: I don’t think it was the first event, though. I think it was maybe the second.

Zohaib Ali: Maybe. Perhaps? Perhaps. [00:02:05] Um, but this year is the ten year anniversary symposium which we are hosting [00:02:10] in London.

Payman Langroudi: For the first time, right?

Zohaib Ali: In the UK for the very, very first time.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not going to come again for a while, let’s face [00:02:15] that.

Zohaib Ali: No, I don’t think I have the energy to do this again for a long, long time. Um, [00:02:20] it’s been demanding, to say the least. And there’s a group of us. Um, [00:02:25] but how do you.

Payman Langroudi: Characterised by immolation?

Zohaib Ali: I think by immolation, [00:02:30] what you have to remember is that at the core of our profession is patient care [00:02:35] and doing what’s best for the patient at all times. And within that realm, [00:02:40] if you like, there’s there’s that thought process or idea [00:02:45] of of biomimetic or imitating what was there by [00:02:50] design, by God or by nature, whoever you believe in that what was there [00:02:55] by natural design is the best thing possible. That’s our gold standard. That’s the bar. [00:03:00] So by Emulative dentistry aims to recreate that. And [00:03:05] if you think back to my initial statement of patient care, it’s [00:03:10] about recreating nature so that you are treating the patient in the most [00:03:15] conservative way possible by by preserving as [00:03:20] much natural anatomy be that enamel, dentine, soft tissue, [00:03:25] bone, whatever it is, you preserve as much as possible so that whatever [00:03:30] the patient has left at the end of your care, they are in the best possible position for [00:03:35] the rest of their remaining life. And that’s the whole premise of it. Now there’s a much stronger [00:03:40] emphasis historically within by Malaysian on, let’s say, enamel and dentine. [00:03:45] That’s that’s where it all really started. But as time has gone on, we understand that, that [00:03:50] there’s a much bigger role or a much bigger perspective you can have [00:03:55] and on the interplay between teeth and the surrounding tissues. And that’s where we [00:04:00] are with it today. And really.

Payman Langroudi: For me, the tip of the spear when it comes to adhesive [00:04:05] restorative modalities, things of colour. [00:04:10] I mean, some of the some of the stuff I saw, and it’s not like I hadn’t seen stuff. I’d seen a lot of stuff. It’s it’s mind blowing. [00:04:15] I saw blew me away, man. It blew me away.

Zohaib Ali: It’s just nuts. And, you know, let’s say the father of all [00:04:20] this is Pascal Magnan, who is a Swiss clinician now based in the States. [00:04:25] Yeah. In LA. And if you read his original book from 25 [00:04:30] odd years ago, something like that, now you would swear that it [00:04:35] was just printed yesterday. Really? It was so far ahead of its time, really. And [00:04:40] there’s a newer version now, a lot of it, but it.

Payman Langroudi: Stood the test of time. Absolutely.

Zohaib Ali: If [00:04:45] I mean, you could, you could read it today and it would still be valid for another 10 or 15 years. It’s absolutely [00:04:50] incredible. And that’s the whole ethos of this group. It’s collaborative, [00:04:55] it’s looking forward all the time. It’s trying to understand what are [00:05:00] we lacking in our current concepts and our knowledge. How do we, [00:05:05] you know, gain that knowledge through clinical procedures, through technicians [00:05:10] in the lab, through researchers? It’s a global think tank of 100, 120 [00:05:15] clinicians all working together in a collaborative way and 120. That’s all. [00:05:20] It’s a tiny number.

Payman Langroudi: I remember at the time when I went there was like 12.

Zohaib Ali: Oh, I see, I mean.

Payman Langroudi: I think you’re probably.

Zohaib Ali: That [00:05:25] was that was the original very, very the core. And um, you know, it was set up by, by three [00:05:30] phenomenal clinicians.

Payman Langroudi: So who are they? Panos.

Zohaib Ali: Panos, who is. Yes, [00:05:35] Panos Bezos, who is one of the one of the founding members, Javier Tapia, who is based out of Spain. [00:05:40] Um, and unfortunately, Gianfranco, who actually just when I say unfortunate, [00:05:45] I mean he passed away very, very, very recently. Um, so [00:05:50] Yeah. Um, we had.

Payman Langroudi: Gianfranco Politano, uh, do a hands on with us. Really? [00:05:55] Um, about, I don’t know, eight years ago. Wow. And such a [00:06:00] gentleman. He would have.

Zohaib Ali: Been in his prime in terms of his Dental knowledge and his skill and everything.

Payman Langroudi: A gentle [00:06:05] guy, though. Such a gentle guy. And I, I found him just a really special [00:06:10] human being. Yeah. Um, as well as as well as the stuff that he’d done at the time. It was [00:06:15] posteriors. Yeah. If he moved on from there.

Zohaib Ali: You know, there’s when you speak to Panos, [00:06:20] he’s he’s quite passionate about people’s personalities. And [00:06:25] one of the things within being Malaysian is that you’ve got to have your head in the right place. Meaning, [00:06:30] have I got the knowledge that I need? And if I don’t have, is my head screwed on right to go [00:06:35] and search for that knowledge and be thirsty for it and be gritty about it. Second [00:06:40] is, you know, the hand skills have to then be developed. But then the third thing [00:06:45] is your heart. Is your heart in the right place at all times when it comes to dealing with the patient, [00:06:50] number one, but also dealing with your colleagues, your nurses, your, you know, your [00:06:55] team of clinicians that you work with. Your heart always has to be in the right place. And I think that’s one [00:07:00] thing that really resonated with me personally about by emulation was, was that specific [00:07:05] comment that there’s no room for ego, there’s no room [00:07:10] for, you know, aristocracy. It’s a meritocracy. And [00:07:15] you and you got to be playing, playing things in the right way on all fronts. Well, I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Glad to hear that. I’m glad [00:07:20] to hear that, because from my memory of it, it seemed a little bit exclusive back then. [00:07:25] Like you said, it was like invitation only. And, um, by the way, sometimes [00:07:30] at the beginning of something, it kind of serves it to have that sort of scarcity mentality. [00:07:35] But I’m glad to hear what you’re saying, that that’s that’s the way, you know, that’s what got you [00:07:40] into it. Um, I always found Panos. Just his eye. What an eye that guy [00:07:45] has.

Zohaib Ali: You know, he’s a specialist orthodontist, actually, by training. [00:07:50] But he’s now he’s now.

Payman Langroudi: He wasn’t back then.

Zohaib Ali: No, he, he, you know, and actually he trained in the UK in in [00:07:55] Edinburgh I think. But his background is restorative. But he does have an eye for stuff and he’s [00:08:00] somebody who just knows how to get shit done. Uh, which, which I admire massively. Um, [00:08:05] and one of the things he, he is doing is, you know, as a group, we’ve [00:08:10] put together the, let’s say, the educational wing or [00:08:15] part of simulation, which is called core. Um, and that is designed [00:08:20] for clinicians at various stages of their career because there’s always there’s [00:08:25] always so much to learn. Whenever you think that you, you know everything, it’s time to hang up your [00:08:30] boots. Yeah. So, you know, if I listen to another clinician within the simulation group [00:08:35] or even outside, there’s always at least one thing that they’re doing better than me. It doesn’t matter [00:08:40] who that person is, how young they are, or how old they are, there will always be one thing [00:08:45] that they know better than I do, so there’s always something to learn. But in [00:08:50] the core, the curriculum is basically, you know, three days times three. [00:08:55]

Zohaib Ali: So I think there’s nine or 9 or 10 days of teaching, you know, split up into direct [00:09:00] restorations, understanding composites and anatomy and that kind of thing, and then [00:09:05] branching into ceramics and so on and so forth. And that is going to be a pathway [00:09:10] for other people to join the group to understand what’s lacking in their [00:09:15] own practice and how they can apply themselves, and a way and a structured way to improve that [00:09:20] isn’t just based on pure experience or someone’s own personal opinion [00:09:25] on on everything. There’s a science to it, and it’s been proven again and again and again [00:09:30] and all the courses we see, whether it’s UK based in the States, in Europe, [00:09:35] a huge, huge number of them within the realm of adhesive [00:09:40] dentistry, they are, let’s say, or [00:09:45] they have taken a vast amount of inspiration from the teachings [00:09:50] of this group. So my advice always to people is just go to the source, [00:09:55] go to the original source. If you want to learn about veneers, go and see Pascal Mann and do his [00:10:00] course. Or maybe Ghalib Grill in Turkey.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, great. Course.

Zohaib Ali: You know, if you want to learn [00:10:05] about Verti preps, go to Italy and there’s a couple of absolute [00:10:10] masters of their trade over there. So whatever it is, you know, find the [00:10:15] best person, find the class leader best in class. Go and learn from [00:10:20] them. Don’t don’t cheap out on it. It’s not worth it. Don’t go [00:10:25] locally because it’s convenient for you if you actually want to practice really [00:10:30] good dentistry. And by that I mean doing what’s actually best for your patient all [00:10:35] the time. Then arm yourself with the correct tools and knowledge to do that. You can’t do [00:10:40] it if you’ve if you’ve cheaped out on your education and you’ve cheated yourself out of that. If you’ve done [00:10:45] that, you’re cheating your patience out of it. So it’s a it’s a really big [00:10:50] splash. Hopefully that that that core will make its coming to the UK. Fingers crossed next year. [00:10:55] Um and is.

Payman Langroudi: It going to be other than UK as well. Yes.

Zohaib Ali: So it’s [00:11:00] one cohort is already running Greece and they’re going to run a second one soon [00:11:05] Bulgaria, Spain and UK. These are the four locations at the moment.

Payman Langroudi: Different teachers or. [00:11:10]

Zohaib Ali: Um it’s going to be there will be some crossover. There will be some crossover [00:11:15] because some people are so good at what they do, you can’t replicate it. Yeah. You can’t. You know, if I could present [00:11:20] their slides, but I’m not going to present it the way they present it with their experience and their knowledge. And, [00:11:25] you know, I work with Costa, who is my, my, uh, unfortunately, [00:11:30] a friend and, and business partner. And we have our teaching platform across [00:11:35] the works, across the works. And, you know, we have multiple teaching courses and we and we’ve [00:11:40] taught talked together some of those slides Costas made a few years ago or I made. [00:11:45] And whenever one of us has to present the other person’s slides, even though we know the material, [00:11:50] we just know it’s uncomfortable and you’re sort of scratching your head a little bit thinking, what did what did Zoe mean? [00:11:55] Or what did Costas mean on this slide? I you know, I can’t really put my finger on it. So [00:12:00] much so that now there’s a couple of slides that that I always have to present, and I have no idea [00:12:05] what they mean, but instead of deleting them, I just leave them in there for, for emotional emotional value. [00:12:10] Now it just reminds me of where I am and and where we came from.

Payman Langroudi: Um, Costas, we had on [00:12:15] this podcast episode 213. Um, a bit of like a mentor to you as well, [00:12:20] in a way.

Zohaib Ali: I don’t say that in public. I don’t like to.

Payman Langroudi: Because he was [00:12:25] he was one of your teachers in your he was in your specialising education in kings [00:12:30] and a well known as a consultant in Kings but recently stopped. Yeah, yeah. And [00:12:35] we’ve had your brother, your twin brother. People might think they’re seeing double. Um. Uh. [00:12:40] Episode 217. Hisham, who is an orthodontist?

Zohaib Ali: Yes, [00:12:45] he’s a consultant orthodontist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So I’m really interested in this.

Zohaib Ali: Why am I the last one to be invited? [00:12:50]

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know. It’s a good question. Um, I’m [00:12:55] interested in your outlook. I mean, I spoke to your brother. Mhm. Um, [00:13:00] but for someone who hasn’t listened to that episode. Mhm. Um, I’m interested [00:13:05] in the situation of, you know, why is it one dentist ends up wanting to specialise [00:13:10] and wanting to get better, and another dentist is happy to [00:13:15] stay at the same level. And another dentist who I had in this chair who was once 50 [00:13:20] practices like what is it? What is it about the way you guys were [00:13:25] brought up that made you want to become specialists? Was there was there something [00:13:30] that that your parents did? Was it, you know, where did it come from?

Zohaib Ali: I [00:13:35] think probably for my parents, um, were I mean, we’re, you know, we’re [00:13:40] Pakistani. I was I’m actually, let’s say first generation immigrant. I was born in Pakistan. Yeah. I [00:13:45] wasn’t born in the UK or in the West. I was born there, and we and we immigrated here [00:13:50] when I was 4 or 5 to Ireland. So, you know, our roots [00:13:55] are to, let’s say, quite conservative and, and our thought process is similar. So, [00:14:00] you know, if you’re Middle Eastern, probably if you’re Jewish, if you’re South Asian, like like [00:14:05] we are. Education was always at the forefront of all of our parents mind. That’s just how you were raised, [00:14:10] that, you know, you go and get a good education. You get straight A’s at school, you [00:14:15] absolutely smash it at A-levels or in Ireland, it was called the Leaving Certificate, which is the equivalent [00:14:20] to the International Baccalaureate. And then you go to university, you do a professional degree, [00:14:25] not arts. You don’t do humanities or geography. You do medicine, law, [00:14:30] dentistry, engineering. Yeah, whatever. And you become one of those professions. [00:14:35] You have a stable income and a stable salary, and off you go. And then in that [00:14:40] same line was, well, how far if I’m going to be a healthcare professional, whether [00:14:45] it’s medicine or dentistry or whatever, you know, what’s the most stability that you can have? And it was [00:14:50] always drummed into me that the more specialised you are, the deeper your knowledge, [00:14:55] the more valuable you’re always going to be. Yeah. Um, and it is actually true. I’ve only I’ve only [00:15:00] come to appreciate that now I’m 30, I’m going to be 38in November, and I’ve [00:15:05] only really come to appreciate that now, in the last couple of years, where we’ve seen a downturn [00:15:10] in the financial situation of the state, of the country and [00:15:15] people’s wallets.

Zohaib Ali: Everyone everyone’s being pinched. You know, Covid savings have dried up. [00:15:20] Petrol prices are are through the roof. Energy costs are through the roof. Yeah. Um, [00:15:25] milk costs are through the roof. And people, you know are not spending so much on [00:15:30] luxury goods. And that’s the same with in dentistry. People are not spending so much on pure [00:15:35] aesthetic or cosmetic upgrades like they were 5 or 6 years ago, or even 3 or 4 years ago. [00:15:40] All of that money is gone and, you know, everyone’s going back to work. People have real, real troubles. [00:15:45] Even dentists. I think we don’t talk about it. But I think it’s I think it’s real. Not everywhere. [00:15:50] I’m in a privileged position. I really consider myself privileged, but I think a lot of dentists [00:15:55] are struggling much more than they would like to admit, especially principles, actually, of [00:16:00] smaller practices. And if you are the kind of dentist or [00:16:05] you have the kind of practice that relied heavily on the Instagram generation on [00:16:10] on volume, on lots and lots of cosmetic output, [00:16:15] then you might find it that you have, that you have a difficult time at the moment because [00:16:20] people are spending less on that. And that’s a market that’s relatively easy to get into. [00:16:25] If you have a bit of cash behind you, you know, if you have wealthy parents and I didn’t. But if you have wealthy [00:16:30] parents or you have some capital and you can set up a practice and dump a load of money into marketing. Well, [00:16:35] you can you can bully your way in and fight for some elbow room [00:16:40] in a crowded marketplace if you have the capital to spend on the marketing. It’s as simple as that. [00:16:45]

Payman Langroudi: Whereas I don’t think I wouldn’t say it’s as simple as that. I don’t. I mean, because you can waste [00:16:50] a lot of money on marketing. Of course you can. You can make a massive mistake and ruin it all. [00:16:55] I hear what? I hear what you’re saying. Where were you in 2008?

Zohaib Ali: I was in my last [00:17:00] year of university. Yeah. And it was a hard time to qualify.

Payman Langroudi: 2008 was [00:17:05] where it was a proper recession, by the way. It could still happen. [00:17:10] It could still happen.

Zohaib Ali: No, I mean, I qualified in oh nine.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So a difficult time in [00:17:15] Ireland. The thing that dried up the most was, was finance. Yes. Yeah. And you [00:17:20] mean.

Zohaib Ali: Like, easy to access finance? Cheap finance?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. For patients. Patient finance? Yes. Yes. And where [00:17:25] I think I agree with you is if, if your practice is based on patient finance for [00:17:30] Invisalign and cosmetics and that, you know, the way you’re characterising it is Instagram. [00:17:35] Yeah, but but if patient finance is a big part of your practice, then what [00:17:40] I would do now is to rejig the situation a little bit, maybe offer [00:17:45] patients to pay as they go rather than have to be approved for finance. Um, [00:17:50] because it’s you know, I talk to lots of dentists and, and finance is a big part [00:17:55] of some practices. It’s massive outlook. Right. And you [00:18:00] know, when you say luxury items you’re a luxury item, right?

Zohaib Ali: Yes [00:18:05] and no. Yes and no. Um, I [00:18:10] have two major groups of patients. I have sort [00:18:15] of, you know, I work in a in a rural part of the country just north of Preston. That’s my mainstay [00:18:20] and a little town called Garstang. It’s called Garstang Dental Referral Practice, and it’s a very wellness practice. [00:18:25] Very well known referral practice. And we get patients travelling hours to So we’re blessed [00:18:30] that way. And I mean blessed.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s Finley Sutton. [00:18:35]

Zohaib Ali: That’s Finley Sutton. Yeah. He set up the practice 15 odd years ago. Something like that. Um, and [00:18:40] he just does the removals, and I do the implants and the fixed bras and and some removals as well. [00:18:45] Now, most of our patients, I would say I don’t have the numbers, but [00:18:50] I would say 99% of our patients are referral patients. Um, there’s maybe [00:18:55] half a percent or a word or maybe 1 or 2% or word of mouth, and 1 or 2 are [00:19:00] just direct access. They don’t know who we are. They don’t know the reputation. They just called up. Now, out of all [00:19:05] my patients, the majority of them need actual rehabilitations. [00:19:10] They have had failed dentistry or neglected dentitions [00:19:15] supervised neglect, whatever you want to call it. They are in need of major overhauls. [00:19:20] For me, that’s not a luxury for me to do it. You can argue [00:19:25] for me to do it for them might be a luxury. Yeah, maybe they can find someone cheaper. Yeah. [00:19:30] Um, to to do to do it to a lesser standard. I don’t want to even [00:19:35] say lesser standard, but, you know, spend less time on it. Maybe the aesthetics aren’t quite as good or things aren’t [00:19:40] quite as refined. So that element of it, you could argue, is a luxury. But [00:19:45] if I try and find dentists within a 50 mile [00:19:50] radius or 25 mile radius of where I work, who can provide what I [00:19:55] can provide, not to the same aesthetic level, even to the same functional level. [00:20:00]

Zohaib Ali: I think you’d be hard to find people there aren’t. And that’s not an arrogance thing. I think [00:20:05] it’s just I think that’s a reflection based on how far the patients travel to come [00:20:10] and see us. I don’t think it’s I don’t think that that in itself is a luxury, that I think [00:20:15] that skill level doesn’t exist or that knowledge, it doesn’t exist. Um, so, [00:20:20] yes, in some ways you can [00:20:25] argue that, but there’s a real need, and I think it’s only once you’re in that position [00:20:30] those patients are in that position. They understand that dentistry done really well is not [00:20:35] a luxury. It just isn’t. It’s a basic need for life, for basic quality of life. [00:20:40] And if you look, if you look quite simply at the World Health Organisation definition [00:20:45] of health, it includes mental health. Okay. Now dentistry falls within [00:20:50] physical health. But let me ask you a question. And you know, if you lose your front tooth, [00:20:55] if you walk outside of here and you fall down the stairs and you knock your front tooth out. Yeah, okay. [00:21:00] It’s traumatic. It’s sore. You can you can get a tooth, but it might take you six months, 12 [00:21:05] months to have a final definitive restoration in place. How are you going to feel [00:21:10] for those 12 months without a front tooth?

Payman Langroudi: Well, I have something right.

Zohaib Ali: Yeah, but probably [00:21:15] it will look pretty. Shit.

Payman Langroudi: Well, it depends what I do, right?

Zohaib Ali: It depends [00:21:20] on who you see. It depends on who you see. But how would you feel now? Now, now, let’s blow that up [00:21:25] by six. You’re missing six teeth. Or you’ve got loose teeth, or you’ve got horrible [00:21:30] recession and you’ve got visible margins and all that kind of stuff. How does that impact [00:21:35] you in your life?

Payman Langroudi: Listen, you don’t need to convince me that dentistry is health.

Zohaib Ali: I know I’m not trying to convince you that [00:21:40] what I’m. What I’m saying is that that it has a massive impact on the psychological well-being of [00:21:45] patients as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I’m sure, I’m sure you don’t need to convince me of that either. 100% agree with that. [00:21:50] Okay. Um, how do you end up in Manchester [00:21:55] or Preston or Bolton or. God. God. God. Garstang. [00:22:00] Garstang. Garstang. Because you guys grew up in Saudi?

Zohaib Ali: Partly, [00:22:05] yes. So born in Saudi? No. Born in Pakistan? Yeah. Spent some time in Ireland. [00:22:10] Spent some time in the Middle East and Saudi, which is where the accent comes from. I was speaking to one [00:22:15] of your American schools. Yes, well, we went to a British school, actually, but all of our friends in the compound, [00:22:20] everyone lives in compounds. Or they used to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They all went to the American school, so we soaked that up heavily. And then we [00:22:25] moved to Ireland, which is a pretty neutral accent overall. You didn’t pick that. We don’t all say 33. [00:22:30] You know, that’s you know, we’re not all chasing rainbows and but it’s a relatively [00:22:35] neutral accent. So we soak some of that up and.

Payman Langroudi: Studied dentistry in Ireland, in Ireland, in Ireland. Both of you. Yes. [00:22:40]

Zohaib Ali: Both of us in separate universities. So I was in Dublin because I was a little bit more clever [00:22:45] than my brother. So I got into it and he was in Cork. They were both excellent schools. Yeah. And I mean [00:22:50] excellent. When I look at where I was when I qualified, compared to the average, [00:22:55] uh, graduate, even in Europe, even in England, I [00:23:00] think we were miles ahead and we were again, just blessed. And, I mean, I [00:23:05] went there because that was a school down the road. Yeah. And I got the grades to get in. It [00:23:10] was as simple. That’s the only reason I went there. And it was cheaper to go there than it was to go anywhere else. Yeah, they were my reasons. [00:23:15] But we had international students coming from abroad saying, this is one of the best schools that we could identify [00:23:20] internationally. So we were really, really lucky. Um, but, [00:23:25] you know, going back to 2008, which is when the global financial crisis hit, I graduated [00:23:30] the following year in 2009. And in Ireland, all of dentistry virtually is private. [00:23:35] There is a small equivalent NHS element, but it’s virtually private.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:23:40] and Ireland suffered more than most countries.

Zohaib Ali: There were suicides and everything over there were massive, [00:23:45] massive problems over there. It really, really suffered. It’s doing okay now, but at the time it was tough, [00:23:50] which meant that there were no jobs for new graduates because people didn’t have the money to spend [00:23:55] on private dentistry. I did a year of and then Hisham had already moved over to Manchester, um, [00:24:00] with my mother. And so it was seemed like the natural thing to do was go to the UK, [00:24:05] have a stable income. Why Manchester for a couple? I don’t know why I chose Manchester, he just did. I [00:24:10] think maybe, I don’t know. I think we had a family friend that was already in Manchester and [00:24:15] that seemed like, well, I know someone there as well. I mean, it’s like we’re talking about the 60s when like [00:24:20] people emigrated for the 50s or 40s when people emigrated from Pakistan, India to England. Well, let’s [00:24:25] just all go to Bradford or whatever. We’ll set up mills there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it’s [00:24:30] almost that mentality all over again. It’s weird.

Payman Langroudi: How many years did you work as a regular dentist [00:24:35] before you thought, I’m going to specialise?

Zohaib Ali: I didn’t. I had [00:24:40] specialised specialisation in my mind from the day I started dentistry. Yeah. I’m sure. Um, [00:24:45] because. Because that that thought process that was, that was ingratiated into us. Yeah. But, [00:24:50] um, so you didn’t work.

Payman Langroudi: You went straight into a specialist.

Zohaib Ali: No, no, I didn’t, I wanted to, but but [00:24:55] the thought of of going into speciality training was, was it was always there. It was just a cloud hanging over you. You knew that you had to do [00:25:00] it. Um, so anyway, when we moved to the UK, I found this job, um, in [00:25:05] Stockport. I don’t mind, my boss will know and [00:25:10] I don’t mind divulging a little bit. And, um, I spent two years there, and it was [00:25:15] hard. It was a difficult crowd, a difficult patient base. [00:25:20] Was it NHS? Oh, almost. Almost 100% NHS. I [00:25:25] wasn’t getting paid. Let’s say a very favourable UDA rate. Um, the [00:25:30] patients were non-cooperative. And I think, quite frankly, looking back on my time there, I was [00:25:35] physically I think I was actually depressed. Um, and I think if I’d seen a psychiatrist [00:25:40] at that stage, they would have actually diagnosed me with depression. But I didn’t have that awareness. I graduated when I was [00:25:45] 22 and I was a qualified dentist, you know, licensed to do whatever. I didn’t have the maturity [00:25:50] to understand what I was going through at that time. And I still remember thinking back now, some days [00:25:55] I would head out the back of the practice with the car park was and I had an old Honda Civic hand-me-down [00:26:00] and it was really clunky door on it. But I remember that the that that sound [00:26:05] the door used to make when I closed, when I closed it, it was like a switch would go off in my head where I would just [00:26:10] disconnect from everything that had happened during the day and just go home and try and have a nice evening.

Zohaib Ali: But [00:26:15] I think I was actually depressed about about my work situation, about my patience, about my [00:26:20] finances. Um, and, you know, this was 15 years ago. I [00:26:25] think people are a lot more open to talking about this stuff now. And mental health is a much [00:26:30] more important issue now. Yeah, thankfully. But back then there was really nothing. Nobody [00:26:35] talked about it and you were just left to your own devices with with your nurse or dealing with business [00:26:40] side of things, dealing with your principal. There was no real support. Yeah, I moved to the UK. We didn’t. I didn’t know [00:26:45] anybody other than my brother, but didn’t know anyone. So not having that support, not having [00:26:50] a business mentor, not having a clinical mentor, a, you know, a life mentor, [00:26:55] let’s say a much older brother or anybody like that. It was difficult for sure, [00:27:00] and I needed a way out. I literally just needed a way out. So I jumped into doing Max factor for [00:27:05] a year, did show max factor for a year. Convinced myself. Right. Tough but [00:27:10] awesome.

Payman Langroudi: You liked it.

Zohaib Ali: Oh, what a time, what a time. Honestly, I’d still [00:27:15] recommend people. And you know what makes a.

Payman Langroudi: Man of you? Makes a man of you. That’s it. Was that in Manchester? [00:27:20] Manchester.

Zohaib Ali: And to anyone, any young dentist who’s listening, don’t. Don’t do it in central [00:27:25] London. Don’t do a max job in in a big, massive central hospital. [00:27:30] In a big teaching hospital. Go and do it in the outskirts somewhere where you get your hands dirty. You take out [00:27:35] teeth. You’ll do surgeries. Go and do it somewhere like that. Because it really. Especially now, if you’re graduating [00:27:40] with with almost zero exposure to surgical stuff, it you know, it would, [00:27:45] it would, it would really.

Payman Langroudi: Take teeth out for sure. Yeah.

Zohaib Ali: Yeah. Take teeth out. But [00:27:50] you know what? It gave me a perspective on life. You know, you would see we would see [00:27:55] drug dealers coming in with after machete attacks and slashes on their face, hands [00:28:00] cut lacerations with the least, least or least of their problems. Atas [00:28:05] atas, you know, cancer, cancer operations, life [00:28:10] changing stuff, really. And it makes you, you know, it really put a perspective on dentistry as a whole that [00:28:15] there’s a much bigger world out there. Yeah. And, you know, we’re not really going to kill people in dentistry. It’s very difficult [00:28:20] to kill someone doing dentistry. It’s possible, but you’d have to really be trying. Um, [00:28:25] did you did you.

Payman Langroudi: Think maybe I want to go into Max first?

Zohaib Ali: Yeah, I did. I did.

Payman Langroudi: So do [00:28:30] medicine and all of that as well I did.

Zohaib Ali: Yeah, I did a ukcat. I remember finishing an on call, [00:28:35] and I decided very late in the day that I wanted to to do Max FACs. [00:28:40] Um, I put my, my application in and I went to the Ukcat. I booked it really late. So it was the last [00:28:45] possible day that I could do it, and it was the morning after I’d finished a week of of on call nights. [00:28:50] So I finished in Manchester. I drove to Huddersfield.

Payman Langroudi: I’m getting PTSD, just listening, listening [00:28:55] to it, you.

Zohaib Ali: Know, drove an hour and a half or whatever it was to Huddersfield at some ukcat [00:29:00] centre after doing God knows how many hours at the hospital did my ukcat drove home. [00:29:05] Um, and then decided after all that, actually, it probably wasn’t for me. [00:29:10]

Payman Langroudi: Um, something some some bit of sanity clicked into you, you know?

Zohaib Ali: You [00:29:15] know, have you read, have you read? Um, there’s a famous book by by Paulo [00:29:20] Coelho, the alchemist. The alchemist? Yeah. The name. That’s my favourite book.

Payman Langroudi: It wasn’t [00:29:25] in your fate or something. Is that what you mean?

Zohaib Ali: I think I think what I learned. Have you. Have you read the book? Yeah. So, [00:29:30] you know, it’s been translated into a hundred different languages or whatever. Phenomenal book. And what I got [00:29:35] from that book was just following the path of least resistance, or following the door [00:29:40] that opens to you that thing, um, and being aware of. Well, that just seems, [00:29:45] you know, that route seems really hard right now. That seems like a really difficult mountain to climb. And that [00:29:50] seems like an easier road. Maybe I should go that way. And at that time, going [00:29:55] into back into medicine would have put huge physical strain on me moving house, [00:30:00] relocating again, financial pressures and all that stuff. I was looking after we were looking after [00:30:05] both my brother and I. We were looking after my mum as well. She’s not well. Um. No, no, she [00:30:10] was well, but we’d gone through. Yeah, we’d gone through a family. Family Break-Up. [00:30:15] And, uh, financially, we were completely self reliant.

Payman Langroudi: Was that. [00:30:20]

Zohaib Ali: Uh, these things, unfortunately, tend to drag out for many years. [00:30:25] Um. But what how.

Payman Langroudi: Old were you when when your dad actually left? Um. [00:30:30]

Zohaib Ali: He didn’t. Oh. He stayed. He didn’t. We left, uh, at the point of graduating. [00:30:35] So at the.

Payman Langroudi: Point of graduating.

Zohaib Ali: Yeah. I mean, literally a week, a few weeks later, that [00:30:40] was it. So we just cut the cord at that stage. Um, but these things drag on for years. [00:30:45] Yeah. And it means unhappy houses, unhappy families, you know, all kinds [00:30:50] of all kinds of issues. And they stay with you and you don’t realise for many, many years [00:30:55] until you start making the same mistakes in your own life. Mhm. Um, and I’m [00:31:00] very open about this stuff now. I have a therapist that I see on and off for the last seven years. [00:31:05] Um, and I don’t have.

Payman Langroudi: Does it.

Zohaib Ali: Help you? Massively. It’s just a reminder of, [00:31:10] you know, I went a couple of years recently and I didn’t really speak to him at all because I [00:31:15] thought, I’m doing okay. And then actually, just a few weeks ago, I gave him a call and made him made another appointment. [00:31:20] And it just reminded me of all the little things I’ve learned over the years of therapy, [00:31:25] of managing my own psychology and the people around me and how I behave and self-awareness, all these things [00:31:30] that actually come from good parenting. When you’re a [00:31:35] child, being in a stable, happy environment, they just come through [00:31:40] that. And if you don’t have that, you’re going to struggle later on in life at some point. At some point [00:31:45] it will affect you and hopefully for other people listening, if they’ve been through that, go and speak to someone. [00:31:50] It’s so easy these days. You can do it online. I started it when I was in London when [00:31:55] I was doing my speciality training, because that was hard. That was really especially training is not easy for anyone who’s [00:32:00] done it. They’ll tell you it’s one of the hardest things they’ve done. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Did you have in your head some [00:32:05] sort of taboo around therapy and [00:32:10] no at all. No. So many people do. Right? Yeah. So you never [00:32:15] had that problem? No.

Zohaib Ali: So the reason I didn’t do it is because I didn’t know what the fuck I [00:32:20] was doing. Yeah. I didn’t realise I was walking around, you know, burning bridges and [00:32:25] pissing people off left, right and centre. I had no idea that I was doing it. Mhm. It’s that self-awareness. [00:32:30] Mhm. Uh, and actually sometimes you have to go through a really, really rocky [00:32:35] patch to realise, um, to.

Payman Langroudi: Recognise the pattern.

Zohaib Ali: Right here. [00:32:40] Yeah. Um, and you know sometimes that means hurting yourself or others around you where you realise, [00:32:45] okay, something’s not quite adding. There’s something amiss here. Someone will just tell you, hopefully [00:32:50] you love them. They’ll tell you, listen, you need help, and then you have to be open to it and recognise that actually, I’m going [00:32:55] to need some help here. Um. And. Yeah, so I still.

Payman Langroudi: And what about talking [00:33:00] about. I mean, you seem to be talking about it without any problems. Did you have any issue in your head about that? [00:33:05] Did you openly tell everyone you were in therapy or did you not?

Zohaib Ali: No, I didn’t, I didn’t. [00:33:10] Um, but now you are.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah, I mean, if someone over that even.

Zohaib Ali: 100%, if someone wants [00:33:15] to ask me about it or if it comes up in a conversation, I wouldn’t shy away from it. Yeah. At the time when [00:33:20] you’re going through a really difficult period, you know, if you’re let’s say you’re in a [00:33:25] workspace and you’re having a reasonably good day, the last thing you want to do is talk about the shit parts of your life. You just want to [00:33:30] get through it and have a good day. I think the.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting difference between the US and here [00:33:35] regarding I mean, it’s changing very quickly, right. But regarding therapists, it’s almost like a, [00:33:40] like a badge of honour having a therapist. It’s it’s almost like, you know, I can afford a therapist. [00:33:45] Yeah. Like, why wouldn’t I? Yeah. Or like a private private trainer in the gym [00:33:50] or something. You know, they they see it that way.

Zohaib Ali: It’s good.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the right way to look at [00:33:55] it.

Zohaib Ali: I don’t think, you know, I don’t think personal training. You know, [00:34:00] I think everyone who needs it or feels like they might benefit benefit [00:34:05] from it should do it. I don’t think it should become a fad. You know that. Oh, I’ll go see my therapist [00:34:10] or I had an appointment with my therapist. I don’t think it should become one of those things. That’s a status symbol, because [00:34:15] it’s a serious thing, you know? Yeah, yeah. I think if anybody has a slight inkling [00:34:20] that that they may benefit from, from that kind of approach, just [00:34:25] do it. It’s not it’s not that expensive. Um, you know, just.

Payman Langroudi: To to give you a Dental [00:34:30] example of that thing that you’re talking about here is in cosmetic dentistry, you [00:34:35] get some people who they might, you might me, and you might look at their [00:34:40] smile and say, that’s a six out of ten smile. Um, and [00:34:45] fixing that for them in a way, from the cosmetic perspective [00:34:50] is easy. Yes. And then sometimes you get a eight and a half out of ten in [00:34:55] central London. Yes. Who wants to be an 11 out of ten? Yeah. Yeah. Um, that’s [00:35:00] a much harder fix from the from the Dental perspective. Yes. So [00:35:05] therapy is similar in the sense that some people go to the therapist for optimisation. [00:35:10] Mhm. Yeah. And so yes it’s a serious thing but but it’s optimisation. [00:35:15] Yes. Thereafter you know it’s like I don’t know CEO training or something like [00:35:20] that.

Zohaib Ali: That’s awesome.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s a good way of looking at it because, because to get over the taboo [00:35:25] of therapy, which you’ve clearly gotten over, is to think of all those people who go purely [00:35:30] to be the best they can be, like, they’ve got no problem at all. Not like a want rather than a need, you know? Yeah. [00:35:35]

Zohaib Ali: That’s awesome. I mean, if you’re in that echelon of society. Yeah. That that, [00:35:40] you know, you’re performing so well and you just want more. You’re, you know, you’re floating through your [00:35:45] day. You’re, you know, you’re the type. You’re not even touching the ground.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Right. I mean, it’s the same. It’s [00:35:50] the same with braces, braces, braces. Although yeah, in the US, the kids kind of feel like [00:35:55] it’s a badge of honour. Yeah. Yeah. Here. Still, we’re not there. I think.

Zohaib Ali: I think now it’s okay. [00:36:00] When I think when I was growing up, it probably you still wanted to try and avoid it. It [00:36:05] was still a bit of a thing, but it was it was, it was getting to that stage of being, let’s say, more acceptable. [00:36:10] Yeah. Now you’ve got 5060 year olds with fixed appliances. Yeah. I don’t think it’s [00:36:15] a problem at all anymore. Um, and but on that, on that point [00:36:20] of, let’s say someone comes to you with an eight out of ten smile. Yeah. I think it’s [00:36:25] okay if they want to go to ten out of ten. But I think what we’re seeing now is [00:36:30] lots of people who are sevens eights out of ten, which is a very crude way of looking at it. But, [00:36:35] you know, objectively, you can objectify it and actually almost put a value on it. Yeah. But [00:36:40] I think what we’re seeing is a wave of dentistry now, which is overkill. [00:36:45] And, and I mean, you know, extreme level of, of composite bonding and [00:36:50] that kind of thing that we’re seeing now is, is going above [00:36:55] and beyond just trying to take someone from an eight to a ten.

Payman Langroudi: What is it then?

Zohaib Ali: I think [00:37:00] patients need more counselling. And let me let me put this. Let me put it from a different angle. [00:37:05] I used to do a lot of injectables, Botox, fillers. I used to teach you. Yeah. Massive [00:37:10] amount. It used to be a third of my week. Really? Yeah. Yeah. And a significant portion [00:37:15] of my income.

Payman Langroudi: After you became a specialist.

Zohaib Ali: Before I became a specialist. Okay. You see, more sense. [00:37:20] Makes more sense. No. And, um, and, you [00:37:25] know.

Payman Langroudi: As in the body dysmorphia kind of kind of reason people want to solve their problem. Life problems [00:37:30] with an injectable.

Zohaib Ali: Yeah. I mean, that’s one element of it, but another element is is [00:37:35] actually, again, it goes back to keeping your patients interests at [00:37:40] heart. And it’s one of the reasons they say you should never treat or inject yourself. Because how you see yourself Payman is [00:37:45] different to how I see you. Yeah. Okay. And what you think is a flaw and you keep working on. Maybe [00:37:50] nobody else even notices it. So if you come and see me, or if you went and see to see anybody [00:37:55] for for injectable treatment or facial aesthetic work, they should be able to give you an [00:38:00] honest and objective assessment of what they think you would actually benefit from, as opposed to what [00:38:05] you want. And that comes down to it’s really important. I hear.

Payman Langroudi: You, but I [00:38:10] kind of disagree as well because.

Zohaib Ali: Because asking the patient what [00:38:15] they want to achieve rather than what treatment would you like, is [00:38:20] the crux of this. And it’s the same in dentistry. You know, a patient comes, oh, I want bonding [00:38:25] 5 to 510 teeth. Okay. Slow down, slow down. What [00:38:30] do you what are you hoping to achieve? What? You know why that those those questions of why do you want [00:38:35] to, you know, have you heard those five whys or four wives or whatever they are? Five. Yeah. Five whys. Keep saying why until [00:38:40] you get down to the crux of it. Because I’m I’m actually lucky I don’t get those patients. [00:38:45] I don’t want those patients because it’s too it’s too it’s too taxing for me. But I see a lot [00:38:50] of the work and I see a lot of it at point of failure. And when you [00:38:55] strip all the composite back and you get back to the natural enamel, you think, why [00:39:00] was this ever done in the first place? They needed one one tenth of this level of treatment to [00:39:05] achieve an optimum result.

Payman Langroudi: But look, of course it makes a lot of sense what [00:39:10] you’re saying. Of course I understand that. Yes, of course I understand it. But you know the famous [00:39:15] daughter test? Yes. For anyone who doesn’t know. I mean, everyone knows about daughter test, right? [00:39:20] Only treat the patient the way you would treat your daughter. Yes. Yeah. I’m a little bit uncomfortable [00:39:25] with it. Okay. Insomuch as it’s not my choice. [00:39:30] It’s my daughter’s choice. Mhm. What she wants to do. Yes. Yeah. So [00:39:35] this thing about I would only treat my daughter this way. It goes back to that old [00:39:40] way of being a doctor, where the doctor knows best and tells you what’s what. And [00:39:45] I know in practice things are different in theory. Yeah. But in theory [00:39:50] you’ve consented this. This patient has, has has informed [00:39:55] consent before you went ahead with whatever you did in theory. I know often [00:40:00] that’s a blurry line, but let’s just talk theory. Okay. So in theory, this this [00:40:05] this this composite that you stripped off.

Zohaib Ali: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: The dentist told the patient it would only [00:40:10] last however long it lasted. Yeah. Let’s just talk in theory for a moment. Um, he told him how long it would [00:40:15] last. He told him what to expect. And the patient with [00:40:20] that information decided to go ahead. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. Now [00:40:25] I get what you’re saying. That’s not always the way it works out. Yeah. But, but it’s important to bear [00:40:30] that in mind. Right. What the patient’s thinks looks good is [00:40:35] the important question not what you think looks good. Yeah. So if the patient comes to me and says, I want my teeth to be four [00:40:40] shades whiter than B1. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s what he wants. Yeah. I [00:40:45] can say I wouldn’t want that for me. Mhm. But if he wants that for [00:40:50] himself. Yeah. And the reason is, look what you want for you or what you would do to your daughter is different to [00:40:55] what I want for my daughter. So these are all different positions anyway, right?

Zohaib Ali: I [00:41:00] agree with you. I agree that, you know, the patient has their right to autonomy. Yeah, totally.

Payman Langroudi: Agency [00:41:05] sort of thing.

Zohaib Ali: Totally agree with that. My problem is, [00:41:10] is twofold. One, I don’t believe that these patients are being consented. Agree. Fully [00:41:15] agree. I don’t agree, you know. No, I.

Payman Langroudi: Agree with you. Patients? Definitely not every time. Right.

Zohaib Ali: No way. A [00:41:20] patients come to me thinking that composite work is reversible, number one. And it just isn’t. It just [00:41:25] is not. You can’t etch a tooth and call it reversible. You just can’t. Never mind removing loads of old [00:41:30] composite. Etching isn’t a reversible process. It’s not. Etching is not a bluff. Okay, [00:41:35] okay. You can remineralize the teeth. Yeah. Fair enough. Okay. But as soon as you put a soft flex disc on something, [00:41:40] you’re trying to remove old composite. It’s not a reversible process. It just isn’t. Okay. [00:41:45] Um, number one. Number two. Have you told the patient how much it’s going to cost to remove [00:41:50] that composite in 3 or 4 years time? Have you considered them for that? Because they’re just going to think I’ll [00:41:55] pay another 2 or 3 grand in another 4 or 5 years. But it’s not. It’s going to be double because the time to remove that [00:42:00] composite.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a good point is huge.

Zohaib Ali: It’s massive. Um, [00:42:05] the third thing is that have you told them that [00:42:10] by doing this composite later on, it is going to damage [00:42:15] their teeth to remove it? Have you told them that? How many dentists say that?

Payman Langroudi: Your [00:42:20] first point, right? Yeah.

Zohaib Ali: As in.

Payman Langroudi: The non-reversible.

Zohaib Ali: Non-reversible is different is [00:42:25] different to actually, it’s going to damage my teeth if I want to get rid of it. There’s a difference there, you [00:42:30] know. Non-reversible. What patients think if I don’t like it, I can just strip it off. No, you can’t [00:42:35] quite strip it off. But we can get you very close to where you were. That’s still different to. Actually, I have [00:42:40] to damage your enamel to get all this composite off, you know. Our patient’s aware of that. I don’t [00:42:45] I don’t think they are. Because my patients, they definitely are not. They come to me expecting [00:42:50] it to be a reversible procedure. And I tell them it’s not. It’s not going to be. And it all goes [00:42:55] back to, you know, trying to keep in what’s naturally, naturally there and trying [00:43:00] to prolong the patient’s dentition and do as little invasion as possible [00:43:05] for maximum longevity. So if you’re going to treat patients in that way, [00:43:10] how does that fit in with, with with our ethos of [00:43:15] minimal invasion, maximum longevity. It’s just it [00:43:20] doesn’t quite work. Do you see do you see how I’m coming, where I’m [00:43:25] coming from I.

Payman Langroudi: Understand that, but.

Zohaib Ali: So so and so and so and so in dentistry, if we if you look [00:43:30] at it at an industry level or at a profession wide level, yeah, if we don’t start [00:43:35] consenting our patients and speaking to them in terms of health rather [00:43:40] than commerce and patient finance, we’re never going to change our [00:43:45] position in society, which is look at that dentist driving their Ferrari. And [00:43:50] again, speaking about Bisimulation, which is where we started this conversation, doing [00:43:55] what’s best for your patients. Excuse me. Doing what’s best for your patients [00:44:00] and having their core interests at heart at all times. I think we would [00:44:05] see a lot less bonding than we see today if everyone [00:44:10] had those frank conversations. Invisalign, which is the other, the other part of that. I [00:44:15] have no problem with aligning people’s teeth. Put them in a stable position.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you know, don’t [00:44:20] don’t pretend there’s no complications to orthodontics.

Zohaib Ali: Of course there is.

Payman Langroudi: And don’t pretend. Don’t [00:44:25] pretend like a lot of dentists do. Yeah. That orthodontics is mainly a health based, um, [00:44:30] treatment. Yeah, I see. I see Invisalign being sold as a health treatment. [00:44:35] I know much more than it should be. I would call it. Of course. Depends [00:44:40] what you’re doing. Yes. But. But I would call it 80% aesthetics. 20%. I mean, you would never [00:44:45] take the risks you take with orthodontics purely to fix [00:44:50] the occlusion.

Zohaib Ali: No, I don’t think orthodontists worry that much about occlusion or that [00:44:55] risks are huge. It’s huge. Orthodontics is primarily aesthetics. Let’s put it that way. [00:45:00] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So, like, it’s a funny thing. You know, orthodontics is a branch of dentistry and [00:45:05] has all the hierarchies of dentistry and so forth. So somehow it’s a it’s a [00:45:10] more sort of acceptable thing to take a child and a child and [00:45:15] mess with the growth of his jaws and put wires on and stick things [00:45:20] to it. Let’s face it, mainly for the way that that child’s going to look. Look. Yes, yes, [00:45:25] that’s somehow acceptable. Um, but cosmetic dentistry for an adult [00:45:30] who comes in and says, hey, I’d like things to look better, that’s somehow less acceptable. You know, and [00:45:35] we know the reasons why, right? We know the reasons why. But but we have to also kind of process [00:45:40] That fact that much of what we believe [00:45:45] was taught to us in uni. So. So where I think of it is around [00:45:50] fluoride. Yeah. Today. Yeah. There’s a big [00:45:55] bit of evidence coming out here that says hydroxyapatite toothpaste is as effective as fluoride toothpaste. [00:46:00] Yeah. As effective. Yeah. Um, we brought out hydroxyapatite [00:46:05] toothpaste, I think, 14 years ago. Yeah. And we, when we were [00:46:10] talking to the chemists here, they were like, putting fluoride into this will make your life a hundred times [00:46:15] harder, because fluoride and hydroxyapatite like to become fluorapatite. And applying fluorapatite [00:46:20] to your teeth isn’t as useful as applying fluoride or hydroxyapatite. So [00:46:25] you only have to get a nano version of it. Have A22 walled tube like [00:46:30] massive nightmare. Yeah. Only because we couldn’t put something out to the dental profession [00:46:35] and say it doesn’t have fluoride in it. Yeah. 14 years later. Now. Oh, I don’t know. [00:46:40] I get it accepted.

Zohaib Ali: I get it, but I mean, I think that’s [00:46:45] slightly different. Okay. When when you look at child orthodontics versus adult cosmetic work [00:46:50] non-reversible, they’re both irreversible. Okay. A child is going to go through that treatment. [00:46:55] Okay. It’s going to take a couple of years or however long it takes. They may even lose some teeth if it’s an [00:47:00] extraction case. And a lot of them are you are going to you are going to modify their growth [00:47:05] through functional appliances. They are then going to wear retainers for the rest of their life, or that’s that’s [00:47:10] what they should do. And we know that now we didn’t 25 years ago, but we know now retention for life. [00:47:15] They’re going to see that benefit for the rest of their life. And there will [00:47:20] be no comeback from that as long as they as long as they comply [00:47:25] with your retention protocols. So you wear your retainers, your teeth are going to stay where [00:47:30] they are. Please keep enjoying this smile for the rest of your life. Thank you very much. You’re welcome. That [00:47:35] is a completely different ball game To not consenting a patient [00:47:40] fully not being completely honest about what’s going to happen to their teeth when the composite fails in three, four, five years [00:47:45] time, it all stains and then having to repeat that. I accept that every few [00:47:50] years for the rest of your life. If you want to maintain that, I accept that it’s a so I don’t think it’s quite [00:47:55] it’s not the same. You can’t compare them and say, well, why is that always? Why is one okay in the child’s case but [00:48:00] not okay in the adults? It’s about the conversation that’s had with these patients. Look, [00:48:05] I went to a previous employer a few years ago when I was looking for some work and, um, [00:48:10] they said, oh, we have got these we’ve got these composite cases coming in, but [00:48:15] you can’t charge what you charge. Why? Well, we only charge [00:48:20] whatever.

Payman Langroudi: The price is too high.

Zohaib Ali: Yeah, you’re. They said so. You know what? You charge is just too much. I said, well, [00:48:25] I spend this much time. How much time do you spend doing your work? And there’s a fifth of the time. And I said, well, actually, you’re [00:48:30] making more money per hour than I am, you know, and we had you mentioned this at the start. The more care [00:48:35] you take, it seemed like the less money you make. And there is some truth in that. Um, and [00:48:40] I didn’t end up taking the job because they wanted me to work in a very particular way, [00:48:45] seeing volume. And I said, well, why do you want to work this way? Because it’s only going to last a [00:48:50] couple of years and see those, you know, those incisal edges that you squared off and now you’ve got [00:48:55] lovely square teeth. They’re going to be the first bits that fracture. And she said, well our patients [00:49:00] you know, they’re happy if it lasts a couple of years. Mhm. And I thought [00:49:05] what other realm of, of your life or [00:49:10] in any industry, in any part or in any facet of our life, are we happy [00:49:15] when our dentist tells us you can, you can do it this way, but only last a couple of years.

Zohaib Ali: If [00:49:20] you do it the other way, it will last much longer, have a better polish, better aesthetics. Et cetera, [00:49:25] et cetera, et cetera. So I think we are to blame as a profession for thinking that, [00:49:30] you know, trying to run our businesses in a way which is based out of pure volume. I think it’s our own fault [00:49:35] as an industry. It’s not the patient’s fault. We’re not educating them properly. We’re not speaking to them in the right [00:49:40] terms. We’re just speaking to them about about really. [00:49:45] We’re letting we’re letting customers and the media and social media [00:49:50] influence us as a profession rather than us taking, taking, [00:49:55] taking it by the scruff of the neck and saying, this is where we want to position dentistry in [00:50:00] the UK and this is how we see ourselves as a profession. I think that’s a much, much bigger problem [00:50:05] than patients asking for certain things or, you know, [00:50:10] the pressures of American influence or whatever. In America, they don’t do things this way. Well, number one, they just [00:50:15] do ceramics. So things actually last much longer. Yeah, because they’re more durable. It’s as simple as that. Um, [00:50:20] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Our partner, our suppliers for our composites in the US, they, [00:50:25] they pretty much, um, pioneered composite bonding. Um, [00:50:30] and, you know, back in the late 60s. Yeah. So, [00:50:35] um, even even though that’s the case, that a lot of the [00:50:40] times when they use it, they use it as a transitional. Yes. Thing. Yeah. Now, all of that [00:50:45] said, you’re very involved with injection moulding. Yes. And with Costas. Yeah. And, [00:50:50] um, that’s composite bonding, right? It is. Um.

Zohaib Ali: It is.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely. And I take [00:50:55] my hat off to both of you. Uh, you know, he’s more the developer than you are or. [00:51:00] But you both. You’ve done bits together. Right.

Zohaib Ali: Well, it’s been a for me personally. [00:51:05] It’s been it’s been a bit of a journey. And I first started using clear stents, [00:51:10] which is how injection moulding works. You know, you have a clear stent that you inject. Um, in [00:51:15] 2017. Um, that was my first case before injectable [00:51:20] resins were actually available on the market. We didn’t have injectable resins back then. Yeah. Um, [00:51:25] at least not available to me. And, you know, my first case of, let’s [00:51:30] say, using a clear stent was getting regular paste composite out of a computer and a composite [00:51:35] gun, and fitting it inside a stent and doing it tooth by tooth, and just [00:51:40] heating it and placing it into the mouth. That was my first go at it in 2017, [00:51:45] and that was in private practice and a practice in London. Um, well.

Payman Langroudi: Off [00:51:50] your own back. Off my own back.

Zohaib Ali: Yeah. In 2017, this was when I.

Payman Langroudi: Had you not seen someone else do that? [00:51:55]

Zohaib Ali: Listen, people have been doing this for 25 years. Let’s not pretend that that using a clear [00:52:00] stent or some sort of clear matrix plus composite inside it is a new [00:52:05] concept. It’s not a new concept. You can go on YouTube and find a video from 99 2001. [00:52:10] Yeah, yeah. It’s not a new concept. No, what’s changed is the materials we have available [00:52:15] to us. So at the end of 2017 and I never did it again, I have the photos for [00:52:20] it. I can show them to you. And in fact, in fact, in fact in fact, I we teach it. I use those [00:52:25] photographs on our tooth pro course to show to show to people. Um, so [00:52:30] that was my that was the first iteration of it. And the reason I did that off my own back was [00:52:35] because I was aware that it can be done. Um, I was in the middle of my [00:52:40] speciality training, so I was working, you know, I had I had access to a full lab in at Guy’s [00:52:45] Hospital in London Bridge so I could spend time messing and [00:52:50] toying and just, you know, being the evil genius in the lab and just figuring out how am [00:52:55] I going to do this? So. And I would spend hours and hours and hours in the lab, more than any of my classmates, [00:53:00] I would say exponentially much more time in the lab than any of my classmates.

Zohaib Ali: Um, figuring [00:53:05] stuff out. And that’s why I was able to then transfer that into practice. Um, [00:53:10] and then, you know, GC general chemicals from from Japan, they brought out [00:53:15] their general universal injectable in 2020 somewhere around there. Um, [00:53:20] and then they brought out Exit Clear, which is the actual clear silicone. And [00:53:25] that really changed the game because we now had a highly filled resin, which could [00:53:30] be injected into a preformed super clear silicone [00:53:35] matrix, which was dimensionally stable with a phenomenal surface detail. And [00:53:40] we could do that all down with Chairside. So that was the next step. And I remember the first time Costa [00:53:45] showed it to me and she was actually on a WhatsApp message and I said, get the fuck out of here. This is never going [00:53:50] to replace traditional layered composites. And again, that was a good few years [00:53:55] ago. So I was a sceptic at that stage because I hadn’t played with the injectable [00:54:00] resin and that was that was the jump. Then that said, hey, listen, you’ve done [00:54:05] it this way, try it this way now. Um, so that was that was the the little jump, [00:54:10] if you like, a few years ago. And since then we’ve gone on to do lots of other things [00:54:15] and really refined the technique more and more. And it’s gone from a place where it used to be fully analogue [00:54:20] to now it can be fully digital, and people are still saying, oh, you can’t, you can’t use digital workflows for this. [00:54:25]

Zohaib Ali: And we actually exclusively use. I think they haven’t quite spent the they think [00:54:30] there’s a problem with with model printing. They think there’s a problem with honing [00:54:35] your wax up in the right way. And if you don’t get those two things right, then you stand. You stand can’t [00:54:40] be produced correctly, which means when you inject, it’s a mess. And the real [00:54:45] problem is that people haven’t spent enough time doing it like I have. And I have [00:54:50] my own printer at home. I’ve got exocad, I have my own, you know, gaming laptop that [00:54:55] I work with to refine this process all the time. Every week, every month [00:55:00] there’s a new little some some. Advent comes along, I think, oh yeah, that’s [00:55:05] going to refine that process a little bit more. And that’s what I’ve spent the last few years doing. So we’re now [00:55:10] at the stage where we can do fully guided layered injectable [00:55:15] composites, which for me is the holy grail because you end up with [00:55:20] all the benefits of layering aesthetically. And [00:55:25] you get the benefit of finishing it with an injectable technique, meaning you’re not spending [00:55:30] hours and hours and hours on that final facial layer, getting your line angles, polishing [00:55:35] it all, all of the anatomy. That’s all done.

Payman Langroudi: That’s all polishing.

Zohaib Ali: Either. Barely. [00:55:40] I mean, I spend per tooth 15 to 30s per tooth [00:55:45] of polishing because if you wax up is honed correctly and your stent is made properly, [00:55:50] the exit clear is such a fine material. It’s like light body silicone. You know, when you do dentistry [00:55:55] all those years ago.

Payman Langroudi: I have a lab around the corner.

Zohaib Ali: But when you [00:56:00] use light body silicone, you get that surface detail. Exit clear has [00:56:05] the surface detail of light body silicone. But the rigidity of type [00:56:10] zero silicone, which is like a hard putty. So you can get incredible surface reproduction [00:56:15] without warping with excellent support [00:56:20] while you’re injecting. So if you have a good wax up, You have a good stint, which hopefully [00:56:25] made you have an excellent finish. When UV light cured, you don’t need to spend hours on polishing.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:56:30] mean, it’s a testament to the development of it that I remember talking to [00:56:35] Kostas whenever it was and then six [00:56:40] months later, which isn’t very long, talking to him again. Yeah. And [00:56:45] he and he pretty much told me I know everything I told you last time has changed. Yeah. And [00:56:50] I was like, what do you mean, man? Like and and and I couldn’t believe it. Right. And the things [00:56:55] that he was talking about at the time, at the time he was grappling with, you know, the circular fingerprint [00:57:00] marks on the, the stent.

Zohaib Ali: The printing lines, printing.

Payman Langroudi: Lines, printing lines.

Zohaib Ali: Yeah. [00:57:05] So we resolved that. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Resolved resolved that.

Zohaib Ali: And then actually taking it one step further now we have now [00:57:10] I have I mean we haven’t I haven’t shared it with people but especially commercially. Yeah. But I now [00:57:15] have printed models with texture like, like a, like a veneer wood.

Payman Langroudi: He told me, he told me.

Zohaib Ali: And [00:57:20] so now I’m at that level that I’ve worked on this for the last six months and it’s [00:57:25] it’s at the point of execution now, so why not? Why can’t, you know, just even.

Payman Langroudi: Even [00:57:30] the layering? The first time I spoke to him, layering wasn’t on the cards. No. And I remember asking, [00:57:35] well, what about layering? And then and then six months later, layering was on the cards. Yeah. Um, so [00:57:40] it’s a testament to the development. And the nice thing is you guys are specialists, both of you. [00:57:45] And that specialist led development is always a good thing. Do you, [00:57:50] when you use it for wear cases and use it, I guess using the same technique at the back? [00:57:55] No, no.

Zohaib Ali: Yes and no. It can be done at the back, but it’s more tricky. [00:58:00] Yeah, it’s more tricky because of access and things like that. And rubber damn clamps getting in the way. I was going. [00:58:05]

Payman Langroudi: To say about the material, it’s the do you can you rely on flowable material for the back? [00:58:10]

Zohaib Ali: So I’m going to stop you there because it’s not a flowable material.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but you know [00:58:15] what I mean.

Zohaib Ali: No, no, no, no, it’s not a flowable material. It’s not. If you take it out of a syringe and pop [00:58:20] it into a cavity. It does not move flowable materials. They flow. They [00:58:25] are fluid. This is not fluid in that sense of the word. It’s thixotropic. [00:58:30] Yeah. Sorry to get you. Remember that old dental science. Ringing a bell but [00:58:35] undergoes something called shear thinning, which is when [00:58:40] it’s driven through a syringe out of the tiny nozzle. You know, the needle at the end. [00:58:45] It’s forced from a wide space into a narrow space. Simplistically. And? [00:58:50] And that forces it to flow. Yeah. Okay. It only flows for that [00:58:55] instant that you’re giving it energy.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Zohaib Ali: Hang on, hang on. [00:59:00] Fair enough. Right. So. So that’s the only time it flows. The rest of the time [00:59:05] it doesn’t. If you if you make a little column of it, it stays put on the table. It won’t [00:59:10] move. Yeah. So it’s not a flowable material. It’s an injectable material. Fair enough. But [00:59:15] it’s not flowable. And we do now have 2 or 3. [00:59:20] We might have a four year follow ups now, plus possibly of where cases and I mean pure [00:59:25] attrition cases that I have treated probably a 2 or 3 years Costa, maybe four years. [00:59:30]

Payman Langroudi: Posterior is treated with a.

Zohaib Ali: Full mouth. Yeah. Full mouth it does. Where like [00:59:35] all composites. Like all composites. So what’s the problem? [00:59:40] I just don’t see the problem with it. It’s I think there is an issue with us as a profession [00:59:45] thinking that this is a, it’s a terminology problem, that this is a flowable. It’s a flowable. [00:59:50] It’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Flowable. Well, listen, I’ve seen I’ve seen a lot of the work. No, I know, but of of the Flowable, it’s [00:59:55] the strongest one. Yeah. Yeah. It’s not I know you’re not calling it a float. I know it’s an injectable. I know you’re not calling it flowable. [01:00:00] Yeah, but but, you know, you must know. Is it as strong as micro hybrid? Composite? Like proper? Proper [01:00:05] composite.

Zohaib Ali: So I hesitate from using if you want to say. If you want to say [01:00:10] is it is it stronger than or is it stronger, I’m going to say no.

Payman Langroudi: But that’s not the key you’re saying.

Zohaib Ali: But [01:00:15] that’s the wrong way to look at it. There are far more important parameters to look at. Like [01:00:20] like how does it wear? How perishable is it? And when it does wear, [01:00:25] how do the little bits of composite, how do they break off, and how do they then interact [01:00:30] with the composite that’s left behind and teeth that’s left behind. They’re way more important. And [01:00:35] um, uh, I’d love to say that I did the study, but I didn’t. But Kostas was part of [01:00:40] it. Um, published just an article just last week. [01:00:45] Um, which I which is available on our Instagrams or whatever, but it’s a peer reviewed [01:00:50] journal, um, characterising the wear of GSK’s [01:00:55] injectable, which is what we use and what we teach because that’s our material of choice, [01:01:00] not because we’re paid to or we’re sponsored by, and we’re definitely not. In fact, if anything, it’s the other way we [01:01:05] pay for all our materials, um, and comparing it to others [01:01:10] on the market, and although it’s not the most heavily filled with GC, won’t thank me for saying, [01:01:15] but it isn’t. You’re not paying me, so next time I won’t say it, but, [01:01:20] um, it it performed remarkably [01:01:25] well. Like remarkably.

Payman Langroudi: Well. The ones the study I saw, the Japanese ones, all of them were [01:01:30] performed better. They’re really, really good. It’s something to do with the styling. So.

Zohaib Ali: Yeah. So, I [01:01:35] mean, I don’t want to bore people too much, but yeah, all the, all the particles are pre-coated [01:01:40] in silane. And, and that means when you go and polymerise it or bond it, there’s [01:01:45] just far more cohesion within that material than there would be otherwise. And in a very simplistic [01:01:50] way, it’s less likely to break away. And the other way.

Payman Langroudi: Wait, wait, are you or Costas [01:01:55] presenting this at the symposium? The simulation symposium? Because I didn’t see your [01:02:00] pretty faces in those in those circles. Why? Because you’re too busy. Too busy organising. [01:02:05]

Zohaib Ali: We’re too busy organising. So you’re not presenting? So we’re not presenting? No. And it was a question that [01:02:10] was asked of us to say, does someone local not going to present at the local conference. And we just thought, [01:02:15] you know, you know, there’s so many people within that group who are phenomenal at [01:02:20] what they do really like far, far better than what I am or what I could hope to be. [01:02:25] That, and this is the first.

Payman Langroudi: Time this thing.

Zohaib Ali: Though I know, I know, I know, I.

Payman Langroudi: Know this thing. I’d say [01:02:30] you guys are at the tip of the spear, right?

Zohaib Ali: Yeah. Thank you. I feel like we are, but [01:02:35] I feel like this is the first time buyer Malaysian has come to the UK. Yeah. And, um, [01:02:40] I want I want to.

Payman Langroudi: Be ultra.

Zohaib Ali: Modest. I want the, I [01:02:45] want the local Brits to see what’s out there. [01:02:50] I feel like they know us already. They know what Prosperworks is. Hopefully they do. Um, [01:02:55] and because it takes up enough bloody time and, you know, they know Costa, [01:03:00] they know me and they know what we do. They know a little bit about injection moulding, but I don’t think they know [01:03:05] what else is out there and what else is out there. And, you know, in the universe is, is, [01:03:10] is supernova. It’s it’s it’s incredible. So we want to give those people [01:03:15] an opportunity to show what they do and open, open the eyes of, of UK dentists [01:03:20] to what’s actually out there. Because the education that you can receive overseas [01:03:25] is incredible. It’s incredible. Go to Japan, go to Italy. [01:03:30] Go to go to Switzerland. Go to the States, go to Brazil. These people are masters of what [01:03:35] they do. And actually, quite frankly, there are some clinicians in the UK who are phenomenal. But [01:03:40] as an industry here, we’re behind the times. We really are behind the times in our academic institutions [01:03:45] in practice, how we how we treat patients on all aspects.

Zohaib Ali: Our artistry [01:03:50] here overall is lacking compared to what’s going on in Europe. And I think [01:03:55] if we can show that, showcase that here, hopefully it will inspire that younger generation [01:04:00] to, to to travel in a different way. Um, [01:04:05] and I think, I mean, I’m 15 years qualified. I’m not a spring chicken anymore, [01:04:10] but I’m not 2035 years. I’m not at the end of my career. I’m somewhere in the middle. [01:04:15] Um, so one of the things that that, that I’d like to do is [01:04:20] help curate, uh, you know, a group in the UK [01:04:25] that is a proponent of this way of thinking. [01:04:30] So one way of doing that is, is having biosimulation and having that presence [01:04:35] in the UK. The other thing I’m doing is that’s a bit more personal to me. And I guess individual [01:04:40] to me is, um, I’ve, you know, when I moved to the UK, I found people weren’t very open. They [01:04:45] weren’t very, very helpful. Maybe it’s because I was an idiot and I didn’t know how to speak to people. I’m sure that had a had a role to play. [01:04:50]

Payman Langroudi: Dentists weren’t sharing their knowledge with you as much as you.

Zohaib Ali: Expand your knowledge sharing, [01:04:55] but it goes from everything from sharing the knowledge to, um, how to speak to [01:05:00] patients, to clinical knowledge, to techniques, to networking. And I think networking [01:05:05] is a is a big side of things. So I recently set up a very, very small group, um, [01:05:10] which aims I’m Pakistani and there’s lots of British Pakistani [01:05:15] dentists who have had qualified here or qualified from abroad and have come back. And [01:05:20] um, historically, I think our people don’t have a very good attitude towards helping [01:05:25] others of the same background as us. I think we’re really, really bad at that as, as a, as a race or [01:05:30] as a country. We just are, um.

Payman Langroudi: Because of the classic situation where the brother [01:05:35] in law sets up a pizza shop across the road from.

Zohaib Ali: I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: What. [01:05:40]

Zohaib Ali: We run takeaways. Okay. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry. Pizza shops are Iranians. [01:05:45]

Zohaib Ali: Yeah, yeah. Oh, you guys are pizza shops. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So some Iranian with an Italian [01:05:50] accent. Yeah.

Zohaib Ali: Um, so, so.

Payman Langroudi: Helping [01:05:55] helping collaboration between.

Zohaib Ali: So I set up a small group. It’s called link. The link. [01:06:00] It’s just, you know.

Payman Langroudi: A WhatsApp group.

Zohaib Ali: Yeah. 10 or 15 dentists that [01:06:05] I sort of knew or was able to contact um, of, of British Pakistani [01:06:10] origin, say, listen, if you guys need help, I’m 15 years out now. Let’s just go. And we just went for [01:06:15] a game of mini golf and a Nando’s or something afterwards. And it was just. And I was surprised. [01:06:20] I mean, people were messaging me once, once the word got out a little bit from, I mean, this was in Manchester that [01:06:25] I, that I’m based people messaging me from Glasgow to say, oh, I can’t make it this [01:06:30] weekend, but will you let me know for the next one? One girl came from Sheffield like an hour and a half away on a Friday [01:06:35] evening, just to connect with people from Liverpool. I mean, didn’t they just come from [01:06:40] 10 or 15 minutes away? People come from hours away. Um, so I think we should all [01:06:45] take some responsibility in ensuring the future of the profession by helping [01:06:50] to guide people in the right way. And the most common questions were were things [01:06:55] like, I was the most senior person there, and I’m not an old guy, but I was the eldest there where, [01:07:00] you know, what course should I go on? Um, oh, I wanted to be a specialist, You know, [01:07:05] what are my options? How do I go about doing this? Or I want to get involved in such and such, [01:07:10] or I’m stuck in this job. How do I get out? I want to do this level of dentistry. I think. I think [01:07:15] that’s really, really missing. One of the problems I think that Covid created was [01:07:20] an overflow of webinars, an overflow of online teaching. And [01:07:25] I think educators are partly to blame because they see money in it and it’s not authentic anymore [01:07:30] that teaching isn’t authentic. I think it’s a cash cow for people, quite frankly. I think it is a [01:07:35] bit of a cash cow.

Payman Langroudi: Why do you say that, though?

Zohaib Ali: Because what you what you get online is a very, very diluted [01:07:40] version of of of of of what teaching [01:07:45] should be. And I think teaching should. I think it’s a generalisation.

Payman Langroudi: No, [01:07:50] I don’t think.

Zohaib Ali: It’s a generalisation. Well I don’t think it’s a generalisation.

Payman Langroudi: Spare online. Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic value [01:07:55] for money. Fantastic. Fantastic. The amount of resources you get from that.

Zohaib Ali: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: I agree with that. [01:08:00]

Zohaib Ali: I’m quite a polarising individual as you may have gathered in a few weeks.

Payman Langroudi: What I’m saying [01:08:05] is, you know that the profit motive is there. Yeah. For us, for some, I’m an educator. [01:08:10] For some educators. But. But if someone said to me. And by by the way, you might notice [01:08:15] this. A lot of the youngsters want to teach. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And and you [01:08:20] say, hey, why? Why teach? But but anyway, um, if someone came to me and said, I [01:08:25] want to teach because I want to get rich. Yeah. I mean, there’s there’s not much money in education [01:08:30] unless you’re really at the top of your game. The vast majority of education is a massive [01:08:35] money loser, right? Because if you spend the time that it takes to make presentations [01:08:40] and. Absolutely. Now, I agree with you that there’s there’s the odd people who’ve hacked [01:08:45] the whole sort of I’d call it sort of this sort of coaching [01:08:50] kind of thing. Yeah. Where they’re making a lot of money out of that education. Yeah. But [01:08:55] education is not a great way. I mean, if I was if I was giving advice to a dentist, right, I’d say, hey, [01:09:00] spend time becoming a more expensive dentist than trying to become a more expensive teacher, because that’s [01:09:05] a difficult way of making money. No, it is, it is.

Zohaib Ali: So [01:09:10] I mean, I, I always had this vision for myself personally. I always had a vision that I wanted variety [01:09:15] in my week. I think I have a little bit of undiagnosed ADHD somewhere lurking around in there.

Payman Langroudi: But it sounds [01:09:20] like you put this group together because you didn’t have that information. Yeah, absolutely. So, so so [01:09:25] I’m let’s, let’s, let’s try and like, work together on this. Yeah, I love that. Yeah I love [01:09:30] that. Now, now the prosperworks. Yes. Yeah. Are you saying, [01:09:35] are you saying here that at Prosperworks. You’re you’re you’re supplying a [01:09:40] form of education that, again, you didn’t have access to when you were younger? Yeah. Yes. [01:09:45]

Zohaib Ali: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think so. It’s genuine and honest. It’s [01:09:50] how we practice. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So, so. But but you’re implying there’s plenty of dishonest information [01:09:55] out there.

Zohaib Ali: That’s exactly what I’m implying.

Payman Langroudi: Go on.

Zohaib Ali: I’m not. I’m not implying it. I’m saying it outright.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, say it [01:10:00] then.

Zohaib Ali: Yeah, I think, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Do you mean dishonest, or do you mean just people who don’t know what they’re talking?

Zohaib Ali: I think [01:10:05] there’s I think there’s two types. Yeah. Okay. And I’m going to get slated for this. Just say.

Payman Langroudi: It. Say it. I’m really enjoying. [01:10:10]

Zohaib Ali: It. But. But we might have to edit this out later. You’re going to send me the. [01:10:15] You’re going to send me this before you edit it, right before you publish it. Sure. Okay, fine. I think there’s two types of educators out [01:10:20] there, or three types of educators out there. There’s there’s the first type that know what they’re talking about, and [01:10:25] they teach it really well. Okay. And to teach it really well, you’re gonna have to let me speak. You speak for a [01:10:30] few minutes now. Okay. To teach it really well, you need to make things simple. [01:10:35] Now, dentistry isn’t simple, especially restorative dentistry. Adhesive dentistry. It’s super sensitive. You need to know [01:10:40] your chemicals, your materials, blah blah blah. Simple. For me, [01:10:45] simplicity means clarity of thought. If you have clarity of thought, [01:10:50] you can explain something to somebody very quickly in a sentence. You [01:10:55] can explain it to them and and they may not understand it immediately, but you can say to them in a very simple [01:11:00] way. It may not be a simple concept, but you can explain it quickly, efficiently, [01:11:05] using easy words.

Payman Langroudi: And to your point. To your point. E equals MC squared. Yes, [01:11:10] is a pretty simple equation, but it took massive knowledge in the background to get to that. [01:11:15] I love that.

Zohaib Ali: I love that metaphor. So so there’s the first type of of [01:11:20] educator who knows what they’re talking about and.

Payman Langroudi: Can communicate.

Zohaib Ali: Can communicate it. [01:11:25] Okay, there’s the next type of educator who knows what they’re talking about [01:11:30] and can’t communicate it. Yeah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve all come across those.

Zohaib Ali: Yes. And and [01:11:35] you know what? Universities are full of them. Universities are absolutely full of them. But [01:11:40] so are private courses. And today the [01:11:45] UK market, as in general, UK society is much more susceptible to marketing than [01:11:50] we were 25 years ago. I think that’s coming from the States and very good marketing. So [01:11:55] if you are an average. If you are an average educator, you might be an excellent clinician, but [01:12:00] you might only be an average educator. But if you if you if you’re very good at marketing, [01:12:05] you can sell your courses. But the people coming on your courses, they’re not going to take that much away, [01:12:10] away from you, from being there, because you can’t convey your message in a simple [01:12:15] way, but you’re not going.

Payman Langroudi: To be very successful, are you? You’re not going to. I mean, it depends on word of mouth. Yes. [01:12:20] It depends on word of mouth. Yes. But if you’re getting word of mouth, but the but.

Zohaib Ali: The people who are [01:12:25] coming on your courses, they know even less than you do. Yeah. So they they may go away thinking [01:12:30] I’ve learned something here. Right. And they may feel like on the day they’ve learned something. But [01:12:35] actually to apply that and when you go deeper into do they actually have an understanding [01:12:40] of what they’ve been taught is a completely different ballgame? Because if you take someone who knows one out of ten [01:12:45] and you teach them five out of ten, five out of 10th May not be sufficient, but they think they’ve learned something. Yeah. Are [01:12:50] you doing them a service? Are you doing them a good service.

Payman Langroudi: Well you got them to five.

Zohaib Ali: You got [01:12:55] them five. But is that what they need to actually go and apply? What what what [01:13:00] what their intention is. No it’s not. So that’s the second type of educator. The third [01:13:05] type of educator is more sinister. The third type of educator is who [01:13:10] understands their side, um, [01:13:15] but doesn’t communicate everything to them, to their delegates effectively. [01:13:20]

Payman Langroudi: On purpose.

Zohaib Ali: Either on purpose or by mistake [01:13:25] or through ignorance.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Why? On purpose?

Zohaib Ali: I think there’s a certain amount of I mean, I [01:13:30] went for a job interview, uh, a while ago, and [01:13:35] I was speaking to a specialist practitioner there. And, um, he said, you know, you know, we [01:13:40] run some open evenings and, you know, we train people how to, to do this, that and the other. [01:13:45] Um, but there’s a limit because you don’t want to train yourself out of a job. You know, you don’t [01:13:50] want to educate people out of a job. And I just thought, hang on, [01:13:55] you’re bringing people in for education, but you’re worried about [01:14:00] how much you teach them in case in case they don’t. [01:14:05]

Payman Langroudi: Want to be for you, not to teach it so that you get the referral. Yes, yes, [01:14:10] I see exactly.

Zohaib Ali: And that’s still happening today. And unfortunately it happens [01:14:15] on paid courses. And I’ve sat in there and I’ve been there and I’ve seen it. Um, [01:14:20] and the last one is that presents everything. Then, you know, the educator that presents everything, [01:14:25] they know everything. They present it, but they present it in such a [01:14:30] complicated way, which is similar to the first one, that the average general dentist cannot grasp it. It’s [01:14:35] too much. It’s information overload. It’s not applicable in everyday practice. It just can’t be applied [01:14:40] in a general practice environment. So I think, you know, [01:14:45] based on my experiences of that in the last 15 years, um, I think [01:14:50] there’s lots of money to be made from poorly delivered education. If [01:14:55] that means that you record, spend a few days recording a two hour webinar [01:15:00] and sell it for £70 and 5000 people buy it. So a lot of money. [01:15:05] It’s quite a bit of money, you know, £70. Yeah. [01:15:10] It doesn’t matter if it’s £70. You’re delivering a message which is diluted. Why [01:15:15] is the money? You know why. So what if it’s £70? You’re delivering a message to people. [01:15:20] It could be. It could be £0.70. But you’re delivering a message to people. That is not the clear. [01:15:25] A clear and complete message. It’s diluted down. Is [01:15:30] that what we should be doing? As. As an industry? As a profession? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Look, I think the one [01:15:35] one place where I certainly agree with you is that when you qualified, [01:15:40] there was almost when I qualified, my goodness, there was there was no [01:15:45] volume of education.

Zohaib Ali: You hardly had you didn’t have a YouTube in the 60s. Payman. You know. [01:15:50]

Payman Langroudi: I remember we had the Rosenthal course. [01:15:55] Oh, yeah. Yeah. And there was the Rosenstiel.

Zohaib Ali: Rosenstiel.

Payman Langroudi: Rosenthal. Larry. [01:16:00] Larry. Larry. Rosenthal. Course. And then that used to eventually [01:16:05] came to the UK. Right. But you had to originally. You had to go to New York to get there.

Zohaib Ali: Mike Lappas [01:16:10] boss, let’s say. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And then. And then there was a there was a guy called Stein [01:16:15] here. He had a he had a I’m doing cosmetic dentistry. He had a, he had a group called adapt. [01:16:20] Okay. Where he would test he would test stuff. Okay. And he was [01:16:25] he was the only choice. That’s all there was. Now go back ten, 15 years from now. [01:16:30] Backwards. There were some. Yes. Now there’s massive overload. [01:16:35] Yes. Yeah. And you’re right. Covid had a lot to do with that. Yeah. Yeah. Massive. And now [01:16:40] it’s almost like curation is the most important thing. Yeah. It is. Um, it’s [01:16:45] a very. It’s a very interesting idea. Right. And so many people have [01:16:50] tried to fix that problem I’ve had. I can’t tell you the number of people who’ve told me. I’m setting up a website that rates courses [01:16:55] and.

Zohaib Ali: Oh.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Zohaib Ali: That’ll jam.

Payman Langroudi: Have they called you as [01:17:00] well? Yeah.

Zohaib Ali: I mean, we get approached. Oh, can you write a chapter in my book that’s aimed at [01:17:05] general dentists and like, for example, you know, there are courses out there entitled, you [01:17:10] know, I don’t know, composite bonding or, you know, [01:17:15] aligners for the general dental practitioner. Yeah. Rehabilitation for the general dental practitioner. [01:17:20] Yeah. Whatever. For the for the GDP. Yeah. I’m sorry. Why the fuck should rehabilitation [01:17:25] or composite bonding or aligners for the GDP be any different [01:17:30] to composite or aligners or rehabilitation for the specialist? Why [01:17:35] should it be any different? Why should it be dumbed down?

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t mean it’s just dumbed [01:17:40] down. How can you teach a course? It’s branding right? It’s it’s.

Zohaib Ali: Branding. Is that is [01:17:45] is that good for the profession? Is it good to say, hey, come [01:17:50] and learn this? It’s fine for general dentists. I mean, what the. I [01:17:55] just I just feel like there’s a there’s a thought [01:18:00] process out there and it all comes back to money. Why do you need to brand it [01:18:05] for the general dentist? Why? Because more people will buy your course. Because it says [01:18:10] for the general dentist afterwards.

Payman Langroudi: It’s branding.

Zohaib Ali: Is that branding? Is that what it is?

Payman Langroudi: I [01:18:15] mean, what am I going to tell you? Is it I don’t know. No. But why do you call Prosperworks Prosperworks? Why? Because. [01:18:20] Because more people are going to buy courses. You know what I mean? You could say anything [01:18:25] like that.

Zohaib Ali: Can you? I think I think it’s a very specific thing. You know, you [01:18:30] know, you wouldn’t have a course called tooth whitening for the general dentist and then [01:18:35] and then tooth whitening for the prosthodontists. It’s exactly the same. It’s exactly why [01:18:40] should that not be extrapolated to rehabilitation, to endodontics, to [01:18:45] rubber dam isolation. Why should it be different for general dentists?

Payman Langroudi: It’s different, insomuch as you know [01:18:50] that running a general practice is different to running a specialist practice. Agreed. So? [01:18:55] So if the if the teacher is saying in a general practice setting, this is how you [01:19:00] do very high level endo. Yes. For the sake of the argument. Yeah. Yeah. Endodontics for the general practitioner. [01:19:05] If that was the name of the course, the conversation would include [01:19:10] how to get the best of that in a general practice setting where time is limited, [01:19:15] sometimes where patients are coming in for dentures instead of for, for, you [01:19:20] know, and so as well as calling out the audience. Right. Yeah. [01:19:25] But there’s nothing wrong with marketing to do. I feel like you’ve got in your head the marketing [01:19:30] is this disgusting game. No, I love marketing.

Zohaib Ali: I think I think, no, [01:19:35] I think, yeah, maybe because I’m crap at it. So I’m calling everybody out who’s good at it? [01:19:40] Um, no, no, I think I think marketing is good. I just I just think that if you look [01:19:45] at dentistry in the UK, where it’s gone in terms of litigation and why that is and [01:19:50] the sources of those problems, there are a lot of it is based around [01:19:55] poor cosmetic work, poorly executed orthodontics, um, and the consenting [01:20:00] around that. And, you know, we went through a phase. I’m not sure if it’s better now, but I remember [01:20:05] going to dental protection lecture a few years ago and they were saying, we’re, you know, we’re four times as likely now to [01:20:10] get litigated against in the UK compared to the US. [01:20:15] Yeah. You know, which is, which is just.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a lot better.

Zohaib Ali: It’s it is a lot better now. But that’s just staggering. [01:20:20] Why is that.

Payman Langroudi: Well there’s a company called Dental Law Partnership. That was it really [01:20:25] was a big difference. I know.

Zohaib Ali: Listen I was I was a victim.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Are you. I’ve experienced [01:20:30] what they did. What then the law partnership did was number one, they lobbied um, uh, [01:20:35] politicians. Yeah. Number two, they bought all the dental negligence cases [01:20:40] of the other companies? Yeah. Yeah. And super specialised on how to maximise them. The [01:20:45] funny thing I went on this trip on dental law partnership. Yeah. I wanted to see how the hell can one law firm [01:20:50] ruin a whole profession? Yeah. Insomuch as definitely the lawyers of one. Yeah.

Zohaib Ali: Yeah, [01:20:55] 100%.

Payman Langroudi: 100%. You know, like, we sound more like lawyers than clinicians these days. You know, getting people to [01:21:00] sign things and and, you know, and I looked into them and, you know, what I found in the legal [01:21:05] world here, they’re like the award winning DLP. Yeah. Really? [01:21:10] Yeah. Because they’ve had a great, fantastic growing business. Right. Wow. Wow. It’s [01:21:15] such a it felt horrible. Yeah. It felt horrible to read that. Yeah.

Zohaib Ali: Yeah. I just yeah, [01:21:20] I just, I mean, you know, but they had a field day because. Because to a point we allowed it [01:21:25] to a point, you know, if you have good notes, if you, if you, if you stick together as an industry, you’ll, [01:21:30] you’ll, you’ll do better. You just will. And I think we need more of that. Hence by [01:21:35] emulation, hence the link which I’m going to plug again. Um, I.

Payman Langroudi: Want to. [01:21:40]

Zohaib Ali: Collaborative efforts.

Payman Langroudi: I asked you before we switched on the microphone here that what’s your sort [01:21:45] of micro specialisation? What’s your super specialisation in process. [01:21:50] And you said the failing dentition. Yeah.

Zohaib Ali: Managing the failing [01:21:55] dentition specifically. Yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I think like so [01:22:00] what I’m what I’m thinking my my question is you must get yourself in some [01:22:05] situations like, um, you know, if by the time [01:22:10] the thing about pros is a funny thing because every dentist thinks they can do pros.

Zohaib Ali: Everybody’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Dentist. It’s not. It’s [01:22:15] not like these days everyone’s.

Zohaib Ali: An orthodontist as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. That too, that too. But it’s not like endo. So? [01:22:20] So you must now be getting sent harder cases [01:22:25] than before.

Zohaib Ali: It’s really hard. Yeah. Ah, you only get sent stuff. That’s. I mean, [01:22:30] it takes. You think orthodontics takes time? Yeah. But replacement of teeth. I mean, my patients 18 [01:22:35] months, two years under restorative care or of Prosthodontic care. Yeah. It’s just mega. It’s [01:22:40] mega expensive. And it’s mega mega on their psychology. And I always tell patients [01:22:45] about for costs. Every patient has four costs that they have to pay. The first [01:22:50] one is obviously the financial cost. Yeah. The second is the time cost. Not just [01:22:55] in the chair but travelling. How far are you travelling from you know, effect on work, annual leave, [01:23:00] um, downtime if you’re having surgical work done, that kind of thing. The next [01:23:05] is biological costs. So everything we do has a reaction. Doesn’t matter how small it is. If I [01:23:10] give you anaesthetic, you might bruise. There’s a reaction to everything. Um, and the long [01:23:15] term complications are sequelae of that. And the final and the most important one, [01:23:20] which I didn’t appreciate for the first four years [01:23:25] of, of my practising career, the psychological cost and [01:23:30] the emotional side of dealing with patients. And that’s the one that I speak to patients [01:23:35] about the most now with the demographic that I have, and I think largely the way [01:23:40] you. If I’m, if I’m a subspecialist prosthodontist in the failing dentition, it’s [01:23:45] because that’s what my demographic needs. So all the learning that I do now is based [01:23:50] around their needs, because I want to offer them the best for what they need. I don’t sit there crying that [01:23:55] I don’t have 25 year old models who just want perfect white teeth, you know?

Payman Langroudi: So the older patients [01:24:00] with.

Zohaib Ali: My average age is probably 60 something in my patient demographic. [01:24:05]

Payman Langroudi: The best patients.

Zohaib Ali: I love them, I love I love the Wendy’s and the Pat’s and [01:24:10] the you know.

Payman Langroudi: I used to I used to work in a practice where everyone was over 60 or 70. That would love it. I love it, [01:24:15] and I used to think I’m such a brilliant dentist. You know, I was this young guy.

Zohaib Ali: Nobody complains.

Payman Langroudi: No one complains. [01:24:20] No one has, like, undue sensitivity or or pain after deep fillings.

Zohaib Ali: They all [01:24:25] just feel so philosophical about their approach. They know. You know what? Life ain’t perfect. Yeah, [01:24:30] yeah, shit’s gonna happen. They just accept that at that age they have that wisdom.

Payman Langroudi: They’re part of that generation [01:24:35] that lucked out with the finances? They bought a house for £62,000 [01:24:40] and sold it for 1.3 million. And so that combination [01:24:45] just makes them the best demographic to treat.

Zohaib Ali: I’m blessed that way. I’m truly blessed. And [01:24:50] I remember thinking again about ten years ago. I remember thinking as I’m speaking to my nurse at the time and I said, Carl, you know, [01:24:55] I’d love to just work somewhere. Not like in the sticks sticks out, you know, but somewhere [01:25:00] pretty rural with a slightly older clientele. I think I think that would be my. That would [01:25:05] just be my home. It’s a good.

Payman Langroudi: Way of working.

Zohaib Ali: And I just again, life just happened [01:25:10] to me rather than me happening to life. Yeah. Uh, you know, the Alchemist and and [01:25:15] it just, you know, it fell in my lap when things were really hard. That job just fell into my lap. Um, [01:25:20] but I think I think I think things fall into your lap once you’ve done the hard work [01:25:25] that that job wouldn’t have come my way, or it wouldn’t have been approached about that opportunity if [01:25:30] I wasn’t in specialist practice trying to write articles. If I wasn’t a specialist, if I wasn’t trying to be out there [01:25:35] and make myself known, if I hadn’t done the graft, the luck wouldn’t have come. And I think that’s I [01:25:40] think that’s what young dentists remember these days is the, you know, the money will come, the [01:25:45] fame will come, the riches will come. But you have to put the graft in first. [01:25:50] And and, you know, Rome wasn’t built in a day. Just take your time. It will come [01:25:55] to you. I think people just. They want everything too quickly nowadays.

Payman Langroudi: And do [01:26:00] you share my view that like you said, you said from undergrad, you [01:26:05] knew you were going to be a specialist?

Zohaib Ali: I didn’t know, but I wanted it. Yeah, I wanted it. Yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But [01:26:10] but you know I had the Anushka Brogan on and she was saying [01:26:15] she knew before she bought her first practice that she wanted at least ten, you know. Well, [01:26:20] my, my assertion here that it’s better to pick something and run [01:26:25] than, than the traditional advice of take your time, sit, do [01:26:30] a bit of everything. See what you like. Of course, that makes some sense. I get that. [01:26:35] Yeah, but what I’m saying, I find it a third year dental student. [01:26:40] I tell them, look, pick endo right now. Yeah, and just like, look for [01:26:45] endo from now. Yeah. Get books. Go, go to go to Endo courses for Postgrads [01:26:50] in the third year of dental school. Yeah. By the time they qualify, get yourself onto an endo MSC [01:26:55] straight away in the US and then come back as a specialist dentist without having done [01:27:00] any other dentistry, and you’re done.

Zohaib Ali: And you’re set.

Payman Langroudi: Insomuch as, insomuch as you [01:27:05] by by setting your task, your your sights early.

Zohaib Ali: You optimise your you optimise. [01:27:10]

Payman Langroudi: Your journey. Yeah. Like super quickly if, if patience is the issue which [01:27:15] is the disease of the young, you know like yeah everyone’s impatient. Like you said.

Zohaib Ali: There’s [01:27:20] a virtue in that because you optimise your journey. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Does [01:27:25] the patient get the best out of you. Well in the US yeah. The US, They really do encourage [01:27:30] that.

Zohaib Ali: Like, I mean, again, the US market is different because it’s, you know, education [01:27:35] is so costly in the UK or in the US as it is in the UK now as well, increasingly. But it’s [01:27:40] a very different way of practising in the US. And the remuneration for dentists is [01:27:45] also really, really different. So it’s hard to draw a total parallels. [01:27:50] But I get what you’re saying in terms of getting to your end point or what you see as your end point [01:27:55] as quickly as possible, so then you can optimise the rest of it.

Payman Langroudi: And what I’m saying, rather than wait to find [01:28:00] your passion, your passion is whatever you’re good at.

Zohaib Ali: I’ll tell you my [01:28:05] story very quickly.

Payman Langroudi: Bloody passionate about hydrogen peroxide, man. You know I am. Yeah. [01:28:10] Go on.

Zohaib Ali: I mean, so I failed at multiple times [01:28:15] of trying to access a speciality training multiple times. Um, [01:28:20] and I think people don’t probably see that side. If you’re. I still don’t [01:28:25] consider myself a success or successful, I still don’t I just don’t, um, [01:28:30] I don’t really have a definition of it, which is maybe why I don’t. I consider myself [01:28:35] privileged to be in my position, and I do consider it a privilege. I still don’t consider myself [01:28:40] successful. I don’t know why, but, um, I [01:28:45] failed 3 or 4 times.

Payman Langroudi: Would you put it down to trying to? [01:28:50]

Zohaib Ali: I don’t know. I just don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: I mean.

Zohaib Ali: So two years in a row, I applied [01:28:55] for orthodontics out of one of those years.

Payman Langroudi: Super competitive. [01:29:00] Right?

Zohaib Ali: Oh. Come on. Fuck that. It is though. Okay, but listen, out of one of those years, I was [01:29:05] I think I was the top graded applicant on paper, one out of whatever [01:29:10] it was. I was number one. Yeah. I’d spent years working on my CV at that stage. Something [01:29:15] happened at Interview stage, which I still don’t quite understand, because that was my second [01:29:20] year of applying. I had the experience, I knew my answers. And these things are you have to prepare. [01:29:25] You have to know exactly what you’re going to say. You know what questions are going to come. You can prepare for it. You can get [01:29:30] you can get coaching from other orthodontists or whatever. Yeah, yeah. Um, something happened, and [01:29:35] and I didn’t get in. I just got pissed off with the whole thing. Then I applied for [01:29:40] the five year restorative NHS training pathway. So it’s five years to.

Payman Langroudi: Become a consultant? [01:29:45] Yes.

Zohaib Ali: Yeah. And again, with that one I had [01:29:50] I knew somebody on the inside. So I knew I had a very good chance. But something [01:29:55] happened. I don’t know. I never really got to the bottom of it. First time I applied for pros, [01:30:00] I got in. And in the years that I’d spent applying for orthodontics, [01:30:05] I spent in general practice after Max FACs in those years, [01:30:10] again, I was trying to do the best for my patients, and my patients needed good restorative work, mostly on their [01:30:15] back teeth. So I spent years working with rubber dam, with cerec, with posterior composites, and [01:30:20] learning how to make money that way. There’s nothing wrong with that, and I still encourage people now [01:30:25] just do really good general dentistry. You’ll make an absolute packet and it’s [01:30:30] so rewarding. It’s so rewarding without any stress, without trying to sell veneers, without [01:30:35] trying to sell aesthetic work. It’s just it’s such a good way to live. Um, but my, my, [01:30:40] you know, my, my thought process is all the CPD and all the courses that I did, they were geared towards restorative [01:30:45] and eventually I thought, I’m okay at this. I kind of enjoy it. I want [01:30:50] to do specialist training because I saw that as my way out of the NHS treadmill. Fuck it. [01:30:55] I’ll apply for pros and I’ll fund it. I’ve been saving up and I got in first time and then [01:31:00] I just flew with it. Once I got in, then it was pedal to the metal and I was all in. That’s just my personality. [01:31:05] I’m either all or nothing. So I went a very roundabout way into specialist [01:31:10] training. Again. I sort of fell into, what’s your.

Payman Langroudi: Point, that it’s a struggle to know. [01:31:15] It doesn’t. Things don’t look as wonderful as my point is.

Zohaib Ali: Sorry. Yeah. Sorry. Payman.

Payman Langroudi: No, no. [01:31:20]

Zohaib Ali: What’s the point? Are we running out of tape? Sorry. So I’m only [01:31:25] saying my point is that my point is that, you know, you can be very [01:31:30] direct with it at the start, as you said, say, I’m going to be an endodontist and fly with it. And [01:31:35] there are merits to that. There’s also, for me personally, if I’d gone into [01:31:40] specialist training straight out of out of uni, dental school or whatever, I would have been shocking [01:31:45] because I wouldn’t have had the time to mature as a person, to see my failures, to improve [01:31:50] my personality, to improve my patient communication. I didn’t go for courses on this stuff. [01:31:55] I just realised how stupid I was. As the years went by [01:32:00] and I had problems and I encountered those problems, whether it’s communication or failures or whatever. So [01:32:05] I think it’s down to the individual. Yeah. And if you are determined, if you’re going to be [01:32:10] gritty, um, there’s that book by Angela Duckworth. If you’re going to be gritty, [01:32:15] um, that everyone should read and that it takes some grit to get through that book. Let me be honest. Have you read it? No. [01:32:20] Oh, fuck. It’s a grind. I did it as an audiobook, and it’s a grind. Just getting through that book takes [01:32:25] a serious amount of dedication because it’s very difficult to listen to. Um, [01:32:30] if you if you want it badly enough, it doesn’t matter. I think when you do it, [01:32:35] you just do it. You know, Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, Microsoft, [01:32:40] not so much. But a lot of these companies weren’t founded until their founders were 30, 40, [01:32:45] 50, 50 years old. So I don’t think that there’s a late point or I think your [01:32:50] journey is your journey. You just got to enjoy it and maximise it along the way. It’s as simple as that. [01:32:55] Um, that’s that’s at least that’s my approach. And I think I’ve been through enough ups and downs to [01:33:00] to appreciate that. Now it sounds like a bit of an old man, but.

Payman Langroudi: On this [01:33:05] pod we like to talk about mistakes. Um, clinical errors. [01:33:10] Yeah. So that you can share an error so [01:33:15] that someone else doesn’t make the same error. Um, and mean in medical. We don’t [01:33:20] like to talk about it very much, but it comes from black box thinking in a way that pilots [01:33:25] share their. What comes to mind when I say clinical errors? What’s an error [01:33:30] you’ve made and what you learned from it?

Zohaib Ali: Not taking X-rays.

Payman Langroudi: Not taking X-rays. And [01:33:35] before putting a crown on something, I.

Zohaib Ali: Did much more than put a crown on. Oh, um, it was a rare case [01:33:40] before I did my speciality training. So for any referrers out there, this is a long time ago. Yeah. [01:33:45] Um, before I had the awareness and before I had a mentor and all that kind of stuff. Anyway, um, [01:33:50] where case I treated it with some composites in a denture. I increased the vertical dimension because [01:33:55] it was where, um, I didn’t take x rays of of [01:34:00] the upper anterior teeth, and it was class two div two case, which means deep overbite, [01:34:05] high forces in unfavourable ways. Patient came back two weeks later after I’d done the [01:34:10] composite work. And her upper anterior incisors. So the maxillary incisors were mobile. [01:34:15] Gums were all flappy I mean, pulling away from the tissues. And I just looked at it and [01:34:20] I just thought, what? What is going on? Took an x ray [01:34:25] and the roots were so short. She had massive root resorption, which I hadn’t [01:34:30] identified, and I should have. The teeth were asymptomatic. They were outside of the where they were, you know, otherwise [01:34:35] intact, unrestored. No carry. So I thought, I don’t need to take an x ray here. These are just healthy teeth. I’ll [01:34:40] just restore them and they’ll be fine. Of course, as soon as I changed the occlusion, I changed the status [01:34:45] quo of the force around those teeth. They started getting pushed forward. They basically were suffering from occlusal trauma. [01:34:50] Wow. Occlusal overload. Mobility. You must.

Payman Langroudi: You must have got scared. [01:34:55]

Zohaib Ali: Honestly? Honestly, I had to go change my pants immediately. Yeah, I bet. And, um, what did [01:35:00] you do? Do you know what? I just adjusted the occlusion. I took all the load off. I [01:35:05] transferred it a bit more posteriorly because it just made sense to me. It just.

Payman Langroudi: Went back and.

Zohaib Ali: Settled. I think [01:35:10] I saw a couple of weeks later, things had settled down again because the load had gone off those teeth, [01:35:15] and eventually they actually that patient this was in Manchester. That patient tracked me down. [01:35:20] Five years later I’d moved to London and she came to see me [01:35:25] at my new job in London five years later and, you know, touch wood. [01:35:30] Everything was still intact. She’d replaced the denture with an implant she’d had done elsewhere, [01:35:35] and the composites were failing a little bit, a bit of staining and that kind of thing.

Payman Langroudi: Did she take it well, [01:35:40] though, when initially, when that happened, or did she take it badly? Um.

Zohaib Ali: She just she just wanted. [01:35:45] I’d seen her husband for some dentures and she’d absolutely lovely Jewish lady. And [01:35:50] she absolutely loved what I had done for him. So I had some credit in the bank. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was really [01:35:55] important to manage her. I just said, um, I can’t even remember. I don’t want to say her name. I just said, [01:36:00] look, it’s a little bit inflamed. I’ve just adjusted your bite. I think it’s a bite [01:36:05] problem. That’s the best I could say to her at the time. Um, let’s see you back in a few weeks [01:36:10] and see how things are going. And she went with that and she came back. Everything had settled down because occlusal trauma does shift pretty [01:36:15] quickly. I saw a few years, a few years later, and all she needed was a polish up of the composites, [01:36:20] and they are still going, so thankfully it ended well. The only time [01:36:25] I’ve really gotten into trouble in my career has been endo related. Um, I [01:36:30] was never good at Endo.

Payman Langroudi: Like all of us.

Zohaib Ali: Like all of us. And those are the one. I think endo [01:36:35] is a speciality. I think it’s the hidden gem. Specialist care, single tooth dentistry. [01:36:40]

Payman Langroudi: Tell me, tell me about as a as a specialist. Something that you’ve seen an error, [01:36:45] not an error. Like a failure of your own work that you learned from and thought. [01:36:50] Ah.

Zohaib Ali: As a specialist. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or do you not get to see your patients [01:36:55] long term as a specialist? It’s a.

Zohaib Ali: Problem. Follow up is a problem because patients don’t want to come back and pay [01:37:00] for pay for a consultation fee or whatever, because it’s £100.

Payman Langroudi: You must have had someone you treated, I don’t know. Yeah. [01:37:05] Five years ago. Yeah.

Zohaib Ali: I’m I’m [01:37:10] I’m not arrogant at all, but I have had touch wood very, very few [01:37:15] failures. And even as a general dentist, exquisitely rare for me to [01:37:20] have outright failure. Not outright I’ve had. I’ve had stainless steel and composite in a few [01:37:25] a couple of years down the road, that kind of thing. Yeah. Um, but I’ve [01:37:30] never really had, you know, a crown come off or a fractured crown [01:37:35] or a tooth dechlorinating have you never.

Payman Langroudi: Have you never had a situation where you’ve [01:37:40] pushed the boundaries of of what is possible? I mean, you’re doing it all [01:37:45] the time with injection moulding, right? Yeah. Yeah. And then there’s no way you can get to the very edge [01:37:50] of what’s possible without something falling over the edge.

Zohaib Ali: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean.

Zohaib Ali: The nature [01:37:55] of what? Of what we do is, is fraught with danger and [01:38:00] frailty at all times. So the patients are consented for that. But if you look at what’s the worst that can [01:38:05] happen here, what’s the worst that could happen? Oh. I’m sorry. You know, a bit of your of your buccal [01:38:10] composite chipped away because I left it a bit thin there.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, okay. [01:38:15] I’m going to say it in a different way. I’m going to ask you a different way. I’m going to ask you a different. Okay.

Zohaib Ali: Go on. Sorry. No, go for [01:38:20] it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s really, really unfair. But I like to ask it.

Zohaib Ali: Do it.

Payman Langroudi: What was your aha moment? [01:38:25]

Zohaib Ali: My aha moment. Yeah. As in I shouldn’t have done that.

Payman Langroudi: No no no. Aha. Like [01:38:30] something. Click click click. What what clicked. It’s a stupid question [01:38:35] right. Because it’s pros. Right. Yeah. But but I’ve what comes [01:38:40] to mind when I say that like. Oh for me. Yeah.

Zohaib Ali: Um, facially [01:38:45] generated treatment planning.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, as in the shape of the smile. Based on the shape [01:38:50] of the face, the.

Zohaib Ali: The position of the maxillary occlusal plane in relation [01:38:55] to the peripheral tissues and the face and facial harmony. Once you understand that, [01:39:00] everything else just falls into place. And that’s literally how I teach it. [01:39:05] You remember complete dentures? Yeah. Remember setting up the teeth? That is prose in its purest [01:39:10] form. So interesting.

Payman Langroudi: I had another specialist and I asked him that question and he said [01:39:15] almost, almost, he said. He said that complete dentures are where it’s all [01:39:20] at. That’s it. That’s it.

Zohaib Ali: If you can. Because imagine complete dentures, right? You don’t [01:39:25] have any zeniths to work with. You don’t have other teeth to use as a guide. You just have soft tissue [01:39:30] and you have lips and you have eyes. You have facial landmarks. If you can use [01:39:35] those to position teeth. That’s all of pros planning. Basically, that [01:39:40] tells you everything. And it’s and it’s so simple. You know, that’s and that’s what I meant about [01:39:45] simplicity and clarity of thought earlier. Yeah. Yeah. Every case I [01:39:50] do, I visualise it as a complete denture. Well what are the problems here? And [01:39:55] you can almost picture a smile and think, if I could just shift these things around this [01:40:00] way and imagine those teeth were in wax, what would I do to correct this problem [01:40:05] that that’s bras. It’s so clear. It’s it’s not rocket science. It’s really simple. So that was my moment [01:40:10] of all right. Now I know where the teeth need to be.

Payman Langroudi: I kind of put everything in it. [01:40:15]

Zohaib Ali: How do I get them there? What are the patience options from here? Whether it’s perio, surgery, intrusion, extrusion, [01:40:20] laparoscopy, whatever it is. These are the options. This this this is this [01:40:25] is your diagnosis. Here’s your options. What do you want to do? That was that for me. That was [01:40:30] the moment. And I think that’s the crux of it.

Payman Langroudi: We’re at this stage in technology now where [01:40:35] it’s almost like a I mean, you see, I’ll take you downstairs to the lab. We’ve got [01:40:40] half the lab with analogue, half the lab with digital. Digital. Yeah. And the time [01:40:45] that you qualified and you’ve sort of seen both sides of this, and I guess [01:40:50] you’ve got to take a decision in a way. Are you going to be the first to jump on a new digital [01:40:55] trend? Trend? I mean, I know you don’t like that word trend, but on a new digital [01:41:00] technology. Yeah. Or are you going to stick with tried and tested? And [01:41:05] I remember the first cerec that I did was, you know, it was before [01:41:10] your time. It was like a powder that wasn’t before. Red cam with the powder. Do you know it?

Zohaib Ali: I’ve used [01:41:15] it.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. So I, I, I did two cases and [01:41:20] I thought, why, why would you take something so fully predictable as [01:41:25] an only, you know, done, done with gum. Yeah. And turn [01:41:30] it into something so unpredictable as the cerec situation.

Zohaib Ali: And look at it [01:41:35] now.

Payman Langroudi: And look at it now. And by the way, even back then, people invested the time and the learning [01:41:40] curve. And of course, you know, they were you know, I was at the time R&D at the time, I was doing one [01:41:45] day a week, you know, so, so, you know, the amount of time it took me, I wasn’t serious. Yeah. [01:41:50] Yeah. Um, so, so based on that, do you find these areas [01:41:55] that you’re still doing analogue? Do you find are you the type [01:42:00] of person who jumps straight in at first early adopter, To. Would you wait for others to be [01:42:05] that?

Zohaib Ali: I’m again, I’m a little bit on the fence, so there are certain things. So let’s take injection [01:42:10] moulding at that.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you’re right at the tip of the spear there.

Zohaib Ali: Yeah, I’m at the head of the curve. Yeah. I’m not even [01:42:15] an adopter. I’m. I feel like I’m innovating it all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but I’m [01:42:20] doing it in very small steps. Yeah. And in, in very safe ways. Yeah. [01:42:25] So that’s easy to do. If you said so, are you going to start doing, [01:42:30] um, you know, fully guided robot robotic implants for me [01:42:35] that the risk profile is really, really important. That’s my point. Um, [01:42:40] so we’ll take a technology. We’ll see how we can train ourselves on it [01:42:45] in a safe, methodical, stepwise manner and work up to the more [01:42:50] complex way of using it to jump into it with, with, you know, head first on the [01:42:55] outset is just mindless. It’s a bit stupid. So whilst you’d like to take [01:43:00] on new technology, you have to do it in a thoughtful way. And I think [01:43:05] that’s that’s just my approach to life, to just keep going with it. Keep. Because if you’re not [01:43:10] learning, it gets boring after a while. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Look, sometimes the dentist gets themselves in hot water. [01:43:15] Yeah. And refers to you. Yeah. What do you do when you get into hot water?

Zohaib Ali: What [01:43:20] do I do when I get into hot water? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is there someone you refer to? No, there is not what [01:43:25] you refer to, you know, in different situations.

Zohaib Ali: No, no there isn’t. I mean, [01:43:30] in specialist practice, you find that that the buck stops with you, [01:43:35] you know?

Payman Langroudi: Basil Mizrahi referral. No no no.

Zohaib Ali: No there [01:43:40] isn’t. And maybe it’s because also maybe I haven’t been in that kind [01:43:45] of hot water before.

Payman Langroudi: It hasn’t happened.

Zohaib Ali: Yet. Yeah. Maybe I need another few years of practice for it to really hit the fan. And [01:43:50] then and then and then you can have me back and we’ll talk about it, you know? Um, [01:43:55] so maybe it’s because that hasn’t happened yet, but I find that [01:44:00] you need to need to take responsibility for if something has gone wrong. I’ve never been in a situation [01:44:05] where something has gone wrong. I’ve told the patient about it. I’ve said, just be patient. [01:44:10] We’ll fix this. And I’ve this. As long as you [01:44:15] discuss that problem before it actually, it manifests itself to the patient. [01:44:20] You’re always clear. And and again, it’s about your heart being in the right place [01:44:25] and having the correct ethos at all times. If it’s not right, tell the [01:44:30] patient. Hey, listen, Jenny, I fucked up. Come back next week. I’m sorry. [01:44:35] You have to take an extra day off work. I’ll give you your money back. We’ll do it for free. Don’t worry about it. I’m [01:44:40] really sorry. I’ve never had a patient complain. Someone said, oh no, my [01:44:45] kids or whatever, or it’s a bit of a headache or, you know, umming and aahing a little bit. I’ve never had anyone [01:44:50] complain if you’ve just said I fucked up. I’m human. I’m sorry. I’ve just never had [01:44:55] that problem. And you know, we do big rehabs, massive grafting and implants [01:45:00] and fixed removable work on difficult cases. Patients. Do you do. [01:45:05]

Payman Langroudi: All the placement yourself? I do a.

Zohaib Ali: Lot of the places myself. Yeah. Yeah. And and you [01:45:10] know, a lot of the patients, even at our level, as if it’s some sort of godly level. [01:45:15] A lot of it is compromised treatment. Patients don’t want the orthodontics. They’ve got difficult occlusions, [01:45:20] but they’re 65. And, you know, they make cakes like other patients. She’s [01:45:25] like she’s honestly she’s like 68 years old. She’s like Britain baking champion. Her brownies [01:45:30] are fucking amazing. And she’s like, I don’t have time for orthodontics. I go on TV and I show people recipes [01:45:35] and I don’t have time for orthodontics. Just fix my teeth the way they are. Just do what you can in the way they are, and [01:45:40] you’ve got to find a way around it. For those cases. You can’t pass that to Basil Mizrahi, because what’s [01:45:45] he going to do? He’s going to say, you know, orthodontics. He’s not going to say anything different. Yeah. So, [01:45:50] you know, you just have to find ways of clever ways of doing it. And then finally [01:45:55] consenting the patient to say, look. And I think that’s where patient autonomy is really important. And, you know, we go back to [01:46:00] that conversation to say this is what I’m recommending. Option A is orthodontics [01:46:05] plus restorative at a grand cost of £5 million or whatever it is. Or we can leave out the orthodontics [01:46:10] and it’ll cost you £4.9 million. Um, but these are the compromises. [01:46:15] I think that’s where autonomy is really important.

Payman Langroudi: I think also also when you’re an expert, even [01:46:20] when you’re in hot water, do you know that you’re you’re doing everything [01:46:25] that is possible to be done? Yeah. So you don’t the hot water doesn’t feel as hot. No.

Zohaib Ali: Then [01:46:30] no. Because, you know.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve done everything the right way. Everything that is possible, you know, up to. Yeah, [01:46:35] absolutely.

Zohaib Ali: Up to the standard. So you speak with confidence and I think touching on [01:46:40] that speaking with confidence and patient communication. I’m not I’m really not [01:46:45] a big fan of, of communication courses which teach you how to sell to patients. [01:46:50] Can we can we get. Here we go again. Because because listen, if a patient needs, needs a crown [01:46:55] or they want aesthetic or whatever they need, right? Just tell them that they need it. Just say, hey, listen. Your [01:47:00] teeth. Your teeth are big amalgams. At some point your teeth are a bit worn. It’s going to it’s going to crack. [01:47:05] So you’ve got to.

Payman Langroudi: It’s going to maybe you’ve forgotten what it was to be a generalist. To be a generalist. [01:47:10] I haven’t I know, I know you haven’t, I.

Zohaib Ali: Know I really haven’t.

Payman Langroudi: But I’m saying what I’m saying is from a position of authority, [01:47:15] of a specialist who’s been pre-sold by the referrer, by the way. Yeah. Patient [01:47:20] walks in already. The referrer sold you.

Zohaib Ali: They have to a point.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Now, [01:47:25] now the patient comes in thinking I’m seeing the expert. That’s that’s a whole different position [01:47:30] you say this needs you need this. That patient fully accepts that. [01:47:35] They need that. Now it’s just a case of have they got the money or not? Yeah. The generalist. [01:47:40]

Zohaib Ali: It’s a different ball game because.

Payman Langroudi: They have to open.

Zohaib Ali: The conversation at source like so I know what [01:47:45] you’re saying. But my patients generally are not referred for full mouth rehabilitations. [01:47:50] They’re referred because they’ve got a failing bridge somewhere or.

Payman Langroudi: Well, they can’t [01:47:55] see their smile. Something’s happened like that.

Zohaib Ali: And? And so they haven’t been told. Listen, you’ve got [01:48:00] six molars with mod B’s that all need crowns. They’ve just [01:48:05] been told. Oh, you got tooth wear because you can’t see your teeth and you want and you want an aesthetic upgrade. I [01:48:10] can’t do it. Go see them. I have to open that conversation of, well, you know, you want [01:48:15] this, but to make it stable, you also need that. I have to have that conversation [01:48:20] with the general dentist isn’t in their ten minute consultation if they’re an NHS [01:48:25] patient or whatever. Having that conversation, I have to broach that subject. And what I found [01:48:30] is, and this is speaking to somebody who had awful communication with patients and I [01:48:35] mean really fucking awful, really awful. I take that as a compliment that [01:48:40] you’re surprised by that. I really take that as a compliment. I’m surprised. It was awful. Really [01:48:45] horrendous. Clinically, technically I didn’t I never had a huge problem, but communication [01:48:50] was terrible. I’m so tired. So, so coming [01:48:55] from somebody who had that in their past to to what I do now, I can [01:49:00] tell you the biggest difference between now and then one, I’m more [01:49:05] emotionally aware of patients.

Zohaib Ali: That’s a big part of it. It’s huge. But the second is [01:49:10] that let’s say I’m a so-called expert in my field. I understand [01:49:15] what I’m talking about in a very, very detailed way, [01:49:20] but also in a very simplistic way that can be communicated to patients. I [01:49:25] can simply say, hey, did you see this picture? This mould is cracked. What do you think’s [01:49:30] going to happen to it next? You know. Yeah. Yeah. And [01:49:35] it’s that simple. It doesn’t it doesn’t need any more than that. You don’t need [01:49:40] to tell them about the benefits of ceramic coverage versus amalgam expansion. You don’t you [01:49:45] don’t need to tell them that they don’t. And they don’t care. They don’t actually care. Yeah. So I find that the [01:49:50] biggest barrier to actually patients accepting care is us not being able to communicate effectively. [01:49:55] I agree, and that’s the only bit of miscommunication. Just dumb it down for them. That’s that’s it. You [01:50:00] don’t need a sales sales course for that. You need to understand it better yourself and present it with [01:50:05] clarity. Yeah, I’m a bastard. I know I’m a bastard, I know. [01:50:10] No.

Payman Langroudi: I wasn’t thinking that. Um. You’re absolutely right. You’re absolutely right. I mean, number [01:50:15] one. Listen. Yeah. So important. Yeah. Um, but you’re right in that [01:50:20] I see young dentists. Sometimes they make the mistake of putting everything in their head, telling the patient everything. [01:50:25] Yes. Yeah. That’s not our job. No. Yeah. Our job is not to tell them everything. Yeah. [01:50:30] Um. You’re right. I hear people talking about porcelain rather [01:50:35] than talking about the benefits of the treatment. Mhm. Mhm. Big big mistakes [01:50:40] of of of of inexperience you know.

Zohaib Ali: That’s right. It’s inexperience which [01:50:45] is hard to tell someone who is inexperienced. It’s hard to get that through to them. [01:50:50] And, you know, people that I mentor and someone came to me with a basically a full arch rehabilitation [01:50:55] recently. And I know they’re not ready for the case, but they’re not going to listen to me. They’re [01:51:00] not going to listen to me about it. The clinician. Yeah. Yeah. Lovely person. Really nice person. [01:51:05] But they’re definitely not going to listen to me about it. And either I make the decision [01:51:10] to just cut the cord and say, I’m not going to help you with it, or and they’ll [01:51:15] go and do it anyway, or go to somebody who doesn’t know what they’re talking about and get bad mentorship, or [01:51:20] they’ll do it without any mentorship whatsoever. So it’s [01:51:25] a difficult situation. It’s a difficult because medical legally, if you’re advising someone, it’s I, [01:51:30] you know, there is some element of liability there as well. But I [01:51:35] feel like at some point you’ve got to you got to just stop worrying about yourself and help others as well. [01:51:40] If I, if I don’t help that person, that clinician who’s going to suffer, they’re going to suffer and [01:51:45] the patient is going to suffer. So at some point, I think you’ve got to take your own personal hat off and then be [01:51:50] a human and just think, think about others for a while. It’s really important. [01:51:55] Really, really important.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a lovely conversation. I really enjoyed it. [01:52:00]

Zohaib Ali: Me too. Thank you for having me. I hope, uh.

Payman Langroudi: The simulations, the dates 20, [01:52:05] 29th, ninth and 30th.

Zohaib Ali: 30th. You should know because we’re we are hosting a party. [01:52:10]

Payman Langroudi: On the 29th.

Zohaib Ali: On the 29th.

Payman Langroudi: On the 29th. Um, and [01:52:15] the website by malaysian-symposium.com.com. [01:52:20]

Zohaib Ali: Yes. All the information is there. The lectures, the venues, the party information [01:52:25] will be there very, very soon, I promise. Payman. Um, there’s a link to the ticketing [01:52:30] website. It’s getting very full and I’m really, [01:52:35] really looking forward to which lecture are.

Payman Langroudi: You looking forward to the most? It’s unfair. Is [01:52:40] that unfair? Is that unfair to ask?

Zohaib Ali: You know what? They’re all such wonderful clinicians. Payman.

Payman Langroudi: Uh. Name one, [01:52:45] name one.

Zohaib Ali: I think if you. I think if you haven’t seen these lectures before, um, [01:52:50] probably Javier Tapia. His work is phenomenal. And also his lectures [01:52:55] and his slides are absolutely stunning. So that would be the one for me.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Zohaib Ali: Absolutely. [01:53:00]

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive pleasure to have you, but I’m going to finish with the usual questions. Fantasy [01:53:05] dinner party. Okay. Three guests. Ooh. Dead [01:53:10] or alive?

Zohaib Ali: Dead or alive. Um, is it just me and the three guests? Yeah. [01:53:15] Dead or alive? Yeah. Oh, [01:53:20] fuck. I should have been prepared for this payment.

Payman Langroudi: Did I not send you these?

Zohaib Ali: No. Yeah. Um, [01:53:25] okay.

Payman Langroudi: Well, the next one you’re going to answer more easily. [01:53:30] So then the other one will marinate. Yeah. Deathbed question. On your deathbed. [01:53:35] Three pieces of advice you’d leave to your loved ones. [01:53:40]

Zohaib Ali: Work [01:53:45] hard. Always [01:53:50] be true to yourself. [01:53:55] And then always be true to your loved ones.

Payman Langroudi: True [01:54:00] to your loved ones. Yeah. Yeah. Explain that one. [01:54:05] Be yourself. Be yourself. Not [01:54:10] so much.

Zohaib Ali: That I think. I think sometimes in order to protect loved ones, you [01:54:15] might go around certain subjects or hide certain things. Oh, I [01:54:20] see. And just be upfront about it.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I see.

Zohaib Ali: Communication and relationships. [01:54:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. Work hard. Yeah. [01:54:30] They’re good. They’re good ones.

Zohaib Ali: Work hard. Be true to yourself. And be true to your. [01:54:35] To your loved ones.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And the dinner party.

Zohaib Ali: The dinner party, I [01:54:40] think. I’m really, really [01:54:45] stuck. I think I need to work on my on on my idols a little bit.

Payman Langroudi: Clearly it doesn’t [01:54:50] have to be idols. It could be, but. But your grandfather.

Zohaib Ali: You [01:54:55] know, my grandfather passed away, and I didn’t really know him very well. So I’m going to go.

Payman Langroudi: Would be a good candidate.

Zohaib Ali: For that reason. [01:55:00] Actually, he was a he was a famous scientist in in agriculture. Yeah. Was he. Yeah. Yeah. [01:55:05] He pioneered a genetically modified cotton strain, which was resistant to [01:55:10] a virus that was sweeping through Pakistan. Wow. And single handedly saved the cotton [01:55:15] industry in Pakistan. Wow. He was a clever guy. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is that your mom’s dad or your dad’s dad?

Zohaib Ali: My dad’s [01:55:20] dad.

Payman Langroudi: What did your dad do?

Zohaib Ali: He’s a doctor. Yeah, he is a doctor. Yeah. Yeah. But I [01:55:25] don’t really speak with him too much, so. Um. Scientific family for sure. So. Probably. [01:55:30] Yeah. My my my. Do you know what? My my. Three [01:55:35] out of my four grandparents. Because I never got to spend [01:55:40] much time with them. They will be my three guests.

Payman Langroudi: And one you did.

Zohaib Ali: One I remember [01:55:45] more of. So the other three.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you can have all four, man. All right.

Zohaib Ali: I’ll take all four.

Payman Langroudi: You can have all but [01:55:50] but in fact, you can have all four. And one other person can give me one more.

Zohaib Ali: If I had one more. [01:55:55] Probably [01:56:00] Muhammad Ali. Probably [01:56:05] Muhammad Ali. You probably get that one a lot. Do you?

Payman Langroudi: I think I’ve had him before. I [01:56:10] think I’ve had him before. Probably Muhammad Ali. What did you love so much about him?

Zohaib Ali: You know, [01:56:15] there’s so many facets to his life. Yeah. So many stages of it. Yeah. [01:56:20] Um, I mean, and it’s almost like there’s a continuous theme running throughout his life of [01:56:25] racism and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. And then the religious aspect. But there’s there were so many [01:56:30] facets to the sport, the race side, the political side at that time. [01:56:35] How do you how does one person deal with all of that and still come through it. [01:56:40] I’d love. I mean, imagine how resilient he is. I’d love to know where he gets that [01:56:45] strength from. That’s incredible.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s been a massive pleasure, man. Really, really enjoyed it.

Zohaib Ali: Thank [01:56:50] you. Payman. It’s been a pleasure. It’s been a pleasure.

Payman Langroudi: Talking to you, man.

[VOICE]: This [01:56:55] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go [01:57:00] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:57:05] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [01:57:10]

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [01:57:15] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what [01:57:20] we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. [01:57:25]

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