Dooroo Ihm: I think 90% of patients who doesn’t like to have a little bit brighter [00:00:05] teeth. Yes, everyone does, but sometimes they’re they don’t [00:00:10] mention it to you because they only met you for the first time. Yeah. I mean, I think that’s another [00:00:15] difficult part. You’ve got to listen to the patient. Like on the first day of meeting [00:00:20] someone, they’re not.

Payman Langroudi: Going to open up.

Dooroo Ihm: Fully. They’re not going to open up. And then if you open up too [00:00:25] much, putting the shade next to the, you know, patient’s tooth, [00:00:30] they probably might get a little bit, you know, step back and then thinking why? [00:00:35] Why? Because I’m not here for this. Yeah. You know that’s also part [00:00:40] of listening. You know, they’re here to get their teeth clean and [00:00:45] then you want to give them what they want. And then you [00:00:50] let them decide. I think I think that’s probably my key.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:55] is Dental Leaders [00:01:00] the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [00:01:05] leaders in dentistry. Your [00:01:10] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:01:15] gives me great pleasure to welcome drew him onto the podcast. [00:01:20] Drew’s a dentist I met a year or two ago at [00:01:25] Banning Dental when I came over to train the team there, and, um, [00:01:30] I was particularly impressed with the the way that you were talking both to patients [00:01:35] and to me. And you’ve got an interesting story, but good, good to good to have you on the podcast, by the way. [00:01:40] Welcome. Thanks for coming all this way.

Dooroo Ihm: Thank you very much for having me. Payman. Um, it’s it’s [00:01:45] my honour to be here and have a chat with you and then talk about the journey of dentistry. [00:01:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So you were born in South Korea? Yes. And your dad’s [00:01:55] a dentist?

Dooroo Ihm: Yeah, My entire family is dentists. My dad, uncle, [00:02:00] also my older brother. He’s also in the UK. He works [00:02:05] as a dentist as well.

Payman Langroudi: What would you say is the main [00:02:10] difference between dentistry there and dentistry here?

Dooroo Ihm: I think the dentistry in back in South [00:02:15] Korea is a it’s not as busy as a UK [00:02:20] dentistry because.

Payman Langroudi: Is it all private.

Dooroo Ihm: It’s a bit of a mix [00:02:25] because the it’s kind of NHS involved private. So patient [00:02:30] pays a certain amount. The government pays the clinics a certain amount. [00:02:35]

Payman Langroudi: Now the price is fixed.

Dooroo Ihm: Yes. So um it’s [00:02:40] very similar to Swedish like it’s well looked after. [00:02:45] Um, so there isn’t actually much work to be done really? Like from [00:02:50] the child care, they always go to dental clinics.

Payman Langroudi: So prevention is.

Dooroo Ihm: Yes. [00:02:55] Case, prevention is a really, really key thing in South Korea and its [00:03:00] easy access. And I think that also makes the oral health care [00:03:05] very, very good standard in South Korea. Um, when my dad started [00:03:10] working, obviously that’s 32 years ago, a lot [00:03:15] of work, a lot of work, but now not not [00:03:20] so much.

Payman Langroudi: So we get this sort of image of South Korea from here of like a very high tech, [00:03:25] very prosperous place. Is that the same in dentistry like other [00:03:30] practices or super duper and does it do dentists do well better [00:03:35] out there than they do here? Or what’s your what’s your feeling on all of that? I think I.

Dooroo Ihm: Think in a sense, [00:03:40] you know, because the it high tech, um, it also helps the dentistry [00:03:45] quite a lot because usually the crowns or any [00:03:50] prosthetic work to be made is within a day.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Dooroo Ihm: Like, you [00:03:55] prank the tooth and you take an impression. And someone from the lab picks it up. And [00:04:00] within an hour, they bring the crown.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Dooroo Ihm: Like an hour or two? Like so. [00:04:05]

Payman Langroudi: And then you bring the patient back in that afternoon. Yeah.

Dooroo Ihm: And then fit it in straight away.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:04:10] that’s a standard thing. Mhm. Wow.

Dooroo Ihm: And also we don’t really have that many [00:04:15] clinics in South Korea as far as I know. Do you know appointment based. [00:04:20] It’s all walking. Oh really. Yeah. Even my dad’s and my uncle [00:04:25] clinics, they’re all walking. So it’s easy access for people [00:04:30] to get their teeth checked whenever they have time. Mhm. Um, there are [00:04:35] clinics who purely work as appointment based specialisations and [00:04:40] these things, but it’s usually really easy access even in other parts [00:04:45] of the healthcare as well.

Payman Langroudi: And what is the the South Korean sort of demeanour. [00:04:50] Because the reason I asked this question is because I go to trade shows a lot, [00:04:55] right? So go to international trade shows a lot, and there’s always a huge [00:05:00] South Korean contingent. You know, obviously big manufacturing country [00:05:05] for even for Dental. Right. Yeah. And whenever I’ve hung out with the Koreans, they’re all party [00:05:10] animals, man. Are they real party animals? They remind me of the Iranians [00:05:15] in that sense, you know. Really? Am I wrong about that? Is it only [00:05:20] on on holiday? It’s all right on holiday. Is it like that?

Dooroo Ihm: I mean, I’ve never actually [00:05:25] thought about it in that sense.

Payman Langroudi: I mean. The [00:05:30] ones I’ve come across. Maybe I’m just coming across those guys.

Dooroo Ihm: I think you were attracting different people. [00:05:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. No. You haven’t thought that? No, [00:05:40] no. So then at 16, you went to Berlin? [00:05:45]

Dooroo Ihm: Yes. At 16, I was sent to a [00:05:50] boarding school in Germany. In Berlin. Why? Um. Purely, [00:05:55] I think. I think my parents want me to study [00:06:00] in abroad. Knowing that there’s there’s a lot of subjects [00:06:05] to study in South Korea. Um, like, unlike the other [00:06:10] country. We’ll have to study every single subject, regardless whether you have [00:06:15] passion about science, science, art, history, art. And [00:06:20] they knew I had no interest. And then I wasn’t doing [00:06:25] so well in the school, in the subjects that I wasn’t passionate about. [00:06:30] And then my mom and dad had a thought about, why don’t we send [00:06:35] him somewhere that he can actually he likes the [00:06:40] systems of the educations. Mhm. And then they looked around, they [00:06:45] had a little help from one of the teacher who was half [00:06:50] Korean and half German. So she guided through some of the schools [00:06:55] in Germany, and she contacted one of the schools called PBIs. [00:07:00] That’s in Berlin. Um, it’s an international school. It’s [00:07:05] a private school, boarding school. And that’s where I was sent. [00:07:10] But obviously back then I didn’t speak a word of English and German. I [00:07:15] had to learn and survive. Really? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What was your reflection the first day you [00:07:20] got to Berlin? What was the thing that struck you as the most different people? [00:07:25] Yeah.

Dooroo Ihm: The way they.

Payman Langroudi: Look.

Dooroo Ihm: Yeah, the way [00:07:30] they talk.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Dooroo Ihm: Everything was different. Everyone’s different. When you were 16, [00:07:35] you’re. You’re just scared.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Dooroo Ihm: And you don’t know [00:07:40] where to start. And then what to do.

Payman Langroudi: There’s an international boarding school. So there was people from [00:07:45] all over the place. Absolutely anyone from Korea? No. You were the only one. Yeah. [00:07:50]

Dooroo Ihm: And there are lots of German as well. Yeah. Who wanted [00:07:55] to learn international.

Payman Langroudi: System.

Dooroo Ihm: Systems? Um, it was such a great [00:08:00] school, to be really honest with you, because I learned a lot from the [00:08:05] German schools that I went to. Um, also, being able to communicate [00:08:10] international people, you know, to understand different cultural. So [00:08:15] it was it was quite eye opening opportunity for me. But [00:08:20] at that time, when I went by myself, I hated it. [00:08:25]

Payman Langroudi: To start with.

Dooroo Ihm: I’m sure it was. It was suffering. Yeah. Because I didn’t [00:08:30] know whom I could communicate. There’s no one.

Payman Langroudi: How long did it take you before you could [00:08:35] understand what people are saying and all that?

Dooroo Ihm: The thing is, you know how a lot of people talk about on YouTube [00:08:40] or social networks, how they learn the language? Yeah. Me purely [00:08:45] took me six months. Somehow, six months [00:08:50] later, I could understand just bit by bit. [00:08:55]

Payman Langroudi: Is that immersion thing right? You live somewhere for six months. It’s better than studying in school. [00:09:00]

Dooroo Ihm: I don’t know how. You know.

Payman Langroudi: Osmosis?

Dooroo Ihm: Yeah. Theoretically works, [00:09:05] but six months later, I was talking to people. And [00:09:10] then that’s how. And then.

Payman Langroudi: And then you were studying for the, I guess, the German equivalent [00:09:15] of A-levels?

Dooroo Ihm: No, no, the international school was based on English. [00:09:20] Oh, I.

Payman Langroudi: Was studying English. Yeah.

Dooroo Ihm: So it was a level not.

Payman Langroudi: Not baccalaureate? [00:09:25] No. All right.

Dooroo Ihm: So I did A-level in, you know, all [00:09:30] the science because. But even at that time I was interested in [00:09:35] healthcare. Like not necessarily.

Payman Langroudi: You went from not speaking a word of English or German [00:09:40] to taking your A level. In what? Maths, physics, chemistry, biology, these sort of things. Yes. Within [00:09:45] two years.

Dooroo Ihm: Within two years? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You must have studied your butt off. Did you, [00:09:50] did you. Did you study really hard?

Dooroo Ihm: I had to. I mean, I had to I had to. [00:09:55]

Payman Langroudi: Sink or swim, right? Yes.

Dooroo Ihm: In order to survive. Really, it was just a survival. [00:10:00] Um, I hadn’t had any other choice at all. Yeah. [00:10:05]

Payman Langroudi: And then, just to make life even more interesting, you [00:10:10] went to study dentistry in Hungary? Yes. In Budapest?

Dooroo Ihm: No. In Debrecen. [00:10:15] Aha. It’s a small city, about two, 2.5 [00:10:20] hours away from Budapest. Um, when? When I finished [00:10:25] the schools in Germany around that time, my cousin and my [00:10:30] older brother were studying in that school.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:10:35] so parents thought.

Dooroo Ihm: Yeah, it’s easier and safer. So I applied [00:10:40] and then got in and and.

Payman Langroudi: Was that course in English or was that it was in English. But [00:10:45] you had to learn a bit of Hungarian. Right, to treat the patients.

Dooroo Ihm: Yes, absolutely. We had a Hungarian course [00:10:50] every year to learn and to just communicate just enough to, you know, [00:10:55] talk to the patients, because all the patients that we had, that was Hungarian patients.

Payman Langroudi: Well, then [00:11:00] you said you said you weren’t strong at the subjects that you didn’t like was languages one of those subjects? [00:11:05]

Dooroo Ihm: Absolutely. My Hungarian was awful.

Payman Langroudi: It’s funny.

Dooroo Ihm: I, [00:11:10] I think, you know, there’s a there’s what we call it bilingual and trilingual. [00:11:15] Um, I think my max was South Korean and English. [00:11:20] I hadn’t had any capacity to put any other language in my head. [00:11:25] So for me, German was gone out of equations [00:11:30] and Hungarian just didn’t have a space to put it in. Yeah, so [00:11:35] I had to just scrape through.

Payman Langroudi: But how did it? How was [00:11:40] hungry? Did you enjoy that time or.

Dooroo Ihm: I think if I think back, [00:11:45] it was it was it was just a journey. I mean, now, [00:11:50] if I think about it, being a student is better. Yeah. Yeah. [00:11:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Dooroo Ihm: No responsibility. Yeah. Enjoy it for the time being. [00:12:00] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then, straight out of Hungary. Where was the first [00:12:05] place you went to work?

Dooroo Ihm: I did actually go back to South Korea to work in [00:12:10] my dad’s clinics for a bit. Um, but then I got bored because, [00:12:15] like I said, the comparison to UK dentistry and South Korean [00:12:20] dentistry. Um, also, when you work in your [00:12:25] dad’s clinics, you don’t you don’t actually get, you know, tortured and [00:12:30] bullied to work hard. It’s, you know, it’s given. So [00:12:35] I packed a suitcase one night, and then I told my parents, I’m going [00:12:40] to. I’m actually going to Ireland. And they were shocked because [00:12:45] I could just stay in South Korea and work. Um, then I moved to Dublin. [00:12:50] I didn’t have a job back then.

Payman Langroudi: Why Dublin?

Dooroo Ihm: Um, because to be really honest [00:12:55] with you, I always it was my passion to move to UK because, you know, when I [00:13:00] went to German boarding school, we went to the school trip to London, [00:13:05] and I was I was amazed by [00:13:10] the London, you know, near the banks where the same poor city. Yeah. [00:13:15] Millennium bridge. Yeah. And Tate Modern.

Payman Langroudi: Just the way it looked. Yeah.

Dooroo Ihm: Just [00:13:20] the way that it looked. I mean, when I was 16 and I thought to myself. And I said to myself, [00:13:25] one day I’m going to come and work here no matter how long it [00:13:30] would take. I’ve come. So I looked up. How do I [00:13:35] gain the GDC license and come and work. But the thing is, before Brexit they [00:13:40] had a lot of rules and regulations. Even though my diploma [00:13:45] was qualified in the EEA because I’m not European, I couldn’t come and work. [00:13:50] So I thought, where can I possibly go and work? And [00:13:55] in, in English, because like I said, that’s, that’s the [00:14:00] my capacity. I can’t learn another language. Yeah. And [00:14:05] that was a Dublin in Ireland.

Payman Langroudi: As in you found [00:14:10] a job there. No. But why Dublin? Like just because it’s English speaking. Yeah, I [00:14:15] know, but why not London? No.

Dooroo Ihm: Like, obviously I had to work elsewhere [00:14:20] before I gained a GDC license. Oh, I see, I see. Yeah. So the only place [00:14:25] that I could start work straight away without any exams or any further [00:14:30] paperwork was the Republic of Ireland.

Payman Langroudi: Before [00:14:35] we go any further, do you have like an outsider mentality? [00:14:40] Because you could have continued in is it soul? Yeah. [00:14:45] You could have had a really successful life in soul. Your dad, your uncle, [00:14:50] all those people fully connected. You could. You could have had. It’s a great country. It’s not like. It’s not like a [00:14:55] country you have to run away from. Like like like many of us. Well, [00:15:00] you know, like. Okay. Yes. You like, you like the idea of of of living abroad. [00:15:05]

Dooroo Ihm: I think it’s if you if you lived most of your life outside [00:15:10] of the country where you’re born, I think you.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t fit in anywhere. [00:15:15] Exactly.

Dooroo Ihm: Well, when I went back home, I mean, I still love everything about South [00:15:20] Korea. Yeah. And, you know, when they play match, it’s just, like, touching. But [00:15:25] when you when you actually move back for having [00:15:30] a such a long period of gap.

Payman Langroudi: You’re different somehow.

Dooroo Ihm: It’s just you don’t really blend in [00:15:35] and you don’t feel like I fit in here. And that’s. That’s how I felt [00:15:40] every day in the life.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so interesting, you know. How long does it take for that to happen? [00:15:45] Because I, we have loads of people from all over the world that work, work here. And I always talk to the ones [00:15:50] who are five years out of their home country. And it’s such a difficult time, [00:15:55] five years out, because you don’t fit in here and you no longer fit in back home [00:16:00] either. And it takes a little bit longer than that to fit in here, to feel like this is home.

Dooroo Ihm: I think I [00:16:05] lived away from home about. Well, around that time was probably [00:16:10] 12 years or so. It’s a fairly long time. Yeah. [00:16:15] So that’s that’s probably another reason why I’ve decided. Yeah. Why don’t [00:16:20] I give it a try? But probably back in my mind thinking that, you know, I can [00:16:25] always go back home.

Payman Langroudi: Did your parents sort of say don’t go?

Dooroo Ihm: No. My [00:16:30] my mom and dad. They they on like literally on that day me leaving. [00:16:35] I remember my parents saying, if you need to come back, come back any time [00:16:40] because you can. And I said, yes, I will. But obviously [00:16:45] in my mind I said, no way.

Payman Langroudi: How many kids are you?

Dooroo Ihm: Uh, I’ve got [00:16:50] me and my older brother stuff, man.

Payman Langroudi: You know, now that I have a kid, if my kid said, [00:16:55] I’m off to South Korea to work and live, I mean, I’d be happy for him [00:17:00] from a career perspective. Yeah, but it’s tough. Must be tough for your parents. Must be. [00:17:05] How often do you go back? Every year.

Dooroo Ihm: No.

Payman Langroudi: It’s tough man.

Dooroo Ihm: Every probably [00:17:10] 4 or 5 years. Whoa. But the thing is, I always ask them [00:17:15] to come around and pay visits. Yeah. And then take some time off from. [00:17:20]

Payman Langroudi: So they do come here?

Dooroo Ihm: Yeah. My mom been here about what, 4 or 5 [00:17:25] times already. So. But my dad is a workaholic. He works six days a [00:17:30] week. Till now he’s been working. Is he a general dentist? [00:17:35] He’s a general dentist, but he mainly focuses on implants and sinus liftings. [00:17:40] So complex implant cases. Um, he’s been doing it 30, [00:17:45] 35 years, and he said he’s got another 15 years to carry on, [00:17:50] but I tried to stop him. All right.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about Ireland, then. [00:17:55] What kind of practice was that?

Dooroo Ihm: Yeah. So I went there. I booked an Airbnb [00:18:00] for about two weeks, and I thought, how hard can it be finding [00:18:05] a job, you know? And I printed my CV about 100 copies. [00:18:10] And then within that, the radius [00:18:15] that I could walk to, I walked around probably with [00:18:20] a little bit of exaggeration. I probably walked around about 200 practices [00:18:25] and start handing in my CV.

Payman Langroudi: Physically.

Dooroo Ihm: Physically? Yeah. Because [00:18:30] what’s the point if I’m there? Might as well. Yeah. And then one practice [00:18:35] called me back saying, do you want to come? Like I had a few interview like straight [00:18:40] away, but nothing was really promising because even then, like [00:18:45] I had Irish Dental Council number, which is very similar to GDC, [00:18:50] but then even then I had to wait for my visa in [00:18:55] order to work, which was another hurdle that which I didn’t actually see through. [00:19:00] And then there’s another practice in slightly north Dublin. [00:19:05] Um, he’s Irish guy. He called me saying, come for an interview during the lunch. [00:19:10] And then he casually he was just having [00:19:15] lunch and then he stopped talking to me. And then he goes, what do you want to stop? [00:19:20] Nice. It was it was kind of like Almost. [00:19:25] I’ve been there for seven days. And then I thought, what’s the chances? Do I need to go [00:19:30] back home or do I need to go to, I don’t know, America? Because [00:19:35] by that time my brother was actually in LA. Uh, he [00:19:40] was doing the restorative course in UCLA. Oh, nice. So he said [00:19:45] to me, come and, you know, stay and then let’s just work in America. So [00:19:50] I was kind of on the borderline of, shall I give up on, you know, the UK Island [00:19:55] of Dreams. And then he goes, yeah, I like it. [00:20:00] Let’s start.

Payman Langroudi: Nice.

Dooroo Ihm: And then I just ask him, like, is that how you give the job? And [00:20:05] I said, yeah, I mean if I like someone yeah I will. And that’s how I got a job. So [00:20:10] I got all the paperwork done and started working in the middle of Covid, [00:20:15] really in the middle of Covid. But the thing is another [00:20:20] probably in a, in a probably lucky sense that, Ireland didn’t [00:20:25] have any much of restrictions of working in dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Not like.

Dooroo Ihm: Here. Yeah, [00:20:30] we didn’t have to shut down the clinics, but there are some clinics they actually closed down [00:20:35] for their health reasons and for the safety reason. So [00:20:40] we had a lot of patients and he was quite [00:20:45] a reputable dentist in Dublin. So he had a large [00:20:50] patient volume. So it was lucky for me to gain [00:20:55] that such a crazy amount of experience in that short [00:21:00] one year. Um, it was probably the best [00:21:05] mentor I ever had in my life, and I still think he is one of [00:21:10] the best dentists that I look upon. When you think.

Payman Langroudi: Back [00:21:15] on what you learned from him. Mhm. What are the couple of things that sort of stick [00:21:20] out for you?

Dooroo Ihm: I think the the message that he [00:21:25] was trying to give it to me was, listen to patients, why they’re here [00:21:30] and what you can do for them. And just listening [00:21:35] to the patient is the most important things. And he was probably [00:21:40] very caring person. So he always put patient [00:21:45] first regardless of what happens. And I think it [00:21:50] was a good start for me because, you know, when you when you start in dentistry [00:21:55] in, in the first year, you could pick up different things. [00:22:00] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I think your first boss is a massive, massive thing, huge impact. [00:22:05] It sets you on a particular direction. Yeah.

Dooroo Ihm: So he was very humble. [00:22:10] Um, he was very skilled dentist. But then he was a caring [00:22:15] dentist. So for me, I had a lot of skill sets [00:22:20] that I wanted to pick up from him. And surprisingly enough, he [00:22:25] never, ever taught someone like among his associates because there [00:22:30] are quite few dentists working for him. He never, ever taught them. [00:22:35] He because he didn’t need to and he didn’t want to teach them. But then [00:22:40] he tortured me for about two months, and [00:22:45] I hated him, to tell you the truth. I hated it, I hated every [00:22:50] single day going to work because I’ll get told off any [00:22:55] any work that I do. It’s not good enough. [00:23:00] But then two months, I. I listened to him and [00:23:05] I tried to improve it. And then two months later, he came [00:23:10] up to me saying, you’re listener. You can handle the pressure [00:23:15] now. I’ll teach you. And then the my whole [00:23:20] journey started differently. I’ve learned from his oral surgery [00:23:25] skill sets because he got MSC in Oral surgery implant. [00:23:30] He’s done orthodontics and [00:23:35] he’s done facial aesthetic well. So he does. [00:23:40] I mean, I haven’t really come across someone who does fixed braces and Invisalign and [00:23:45] implants oral surgery. So I learned really a lot [00:23:50] from him Foundation skill sets. And then a year after. [00:23:55]

Payman Langroudi: How old was he?

Dooroo Ihm: He was only 49.

Payman Langroudi: Shout him out. [00:24:00] Who is this hero? What’s his name? Sean.

Dooroo Ihm: Sean?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What’s his surname?

Dooroo Ihm: Not [00:24:05] too sure. He would like to be mentioned.

Payman Langroudi: Of course he would.

Dooroo Ihm: Sean Murray.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent. [00:24:10]

Dooroo Ihm: Um. I still look after his nephew. His [00:24:15] nephew came to London and there was still part of family now. Love [00:24:20] that. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Love that. So why did you leave? Because you had still this dream [00:24:25] of London.

Dooroo Ihm: Yes. And also by [00:24:30] that time I had a girlfriend that I was seeing for about [00:24:35] ten plus years, and she wanted to [00:24:40] move to UK.

Payman Langroudi: Ten years. So since Korea. Yeah. [00:24:45] Okay.

Dooroo Ihm: Yeah. So we got to know each other from back home. [00:24:50] And then she actually came to the Hungary to do the medical schools. [00:24:55] Oh. So yeah, we spent a lot of time together. And [00:25:00] then it was on the process of okay, we’ve got to settle [00:25:05] down together and then where should we go? Um, I was comfortable, [00:25:10] happy in Dublin.

Payman Langroudi: But was she in Dublin as well.

Dooroo Ihm: Yeah, [00:25:15] she, she came to Dublin a few times while she was still studying. And [00:25:20] then it was kind of our decision okay to move to the UK [00:25:25] a little bit earlier. So that’s when we decided to move to UK. [00:25:30] So she’s.

Payman Langroudi: A doctor?

Dooroo Ihm: Yes. And that’s the time when the Brexit. [00:25:35] Allow me to come and work straight away. [00:25:40] So that opportunity when.

Payman Langroudi: You say Brexit allowed you to come. [00:25:45] I would have thought Brexit would have made it harder.

Dooroo Ihm: No, it would have made it harder. But because of the Brexit [00:25:50] and GDC, what they have changed in terms of rules and regulations [00:25:55] is anyone who’s got a diploma can come and work. [00:26:00] But before Brexit it was. Oh, I see.

Payman Langroudi: They did that to cover the fact that they’re going [00:26:05] to lose people.

Dooroo Ihm: Exactly. Yeah. Before then it was European plus. [00:26:10] Yeah yeah, yeah. Aeaeeé diploma. I get but they’ve changed to just looking [00:26:15] at, you know, your degrees and diploma. So that’s how I could [00:26:20] apply it. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So you decide you’re coming to London. Did [00:26:25] you find a job before you came? Or did you do your same? [00:26:30]

Dooroo Ihm: No. From Dublin. Dublin? I had to, I had to apply. Many, [00:26:35] many places. And it was it was a straight after Covid, so it was [00:26:40] very difficult to find a job. Yeah. Um, so I found a job in Cambridge first, [00:26:45] and then I worked there for about a year and a half. And [00:26:50] then I found. Was it a mixed practice? No, it was a private practice. Oh, lovely. Yeah, [00:26:55] it was. It was a good practice. I liked it, actually.

Payman Langroudi: In that period, there was just many patients with money [00:27:00] in their pockets. Right. Yeah. That was that was the golden age. There was a lot of work, [00:27:05] the valuations that people were talking about back then. Yeah. So you were busy. [00:27:10]

Dooroo Ihm: Very busy.

Payman Langroudi: Ppe and all that stuff. That was past that. Was it.

Dooroo Ihm: Partially. [00:27:15]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah.

Dooroo Ihm: We had a what.

Payman Langroudi: Was that thing where the room has to settle. Oh, what was [00:27:20] that called? All these new words we learned. Fallow time. Yeah.

Dooroo Ihm: You [00:27:25] have to empty the room for about two hours after it was all.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:27:30] All those words we learned. Yeah. So. All right. So. So you worked there. Were you happy there?

Dooroo Ihm: Yeah, [00:27:35] I was happy in Cambridge, but the Cambridge was a little bit too quiet for us [00:27:40] as a town. Yeah, it was after after work. There’s nothing going on. It [00:27:45] was very quiet.

Payman Langroudi: Did you not sit by the water and. Yeah. I suppose you can’t do that for [00:27:50] long. No.

Dooroo Ihm: And then we looked about. Okay, why don’t we move to [00:27:55] London? Yeah. And then that’s where I found Betty. And [00:28:00] that’s currently I’m working for two years.

Payman Langroudi: So banning Dental for [00:28:05] someone who doesn’t know. Mhm. I mean obviously I’m very aware of them. They [00:28:10] correct me like, tell me, tell me, how many practices is it now?

Dooroo Ihm: They’ve got ten [00:28:15] branches now.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Ten huge practices. Yes. And [00:28:20] from squat.

Dooroo Ihm: From squat.

Payman Langroudi: All of them. Yeah. That’s that’s the business model and [00:28:25] super duper beautiful places.

Dooroo Ihm: It’s it’s probably really [00:28:30] one of the best or the luxury practices. Nice looking. Yeah. Nice looking. [00:28:35] It’s not too much. It’s it’s a nice and tidy up. It’s [00:28:40] very elegant looking practice. Yeah. And the equipments is very, very [00:28:45] up to date. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And and the systems, the people, the way they follow up and [00:28:50] all that. Right.

Dooroo Ihm: System really, really works. I mean probably that’s the reason I’m still [00:28:55] there and the working happy in two years and their system is great. Marketing [00:29:00] teams and follow up team. You know how the the appointments are managed [00:29:05] is properly nicely designed. They spent a lot of time I see I [00:29:10] see the practice owner pretty much working seven days a week.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, [00:29:15] yeah. They’re hard working guys.

Dooroo Ihm: Yeah they are.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And so in [00:29:20] amongst all of this, you also studied endo. [00:29:25]

Dooroo Ihm: Yes, I’ve done two years. Endo. I [00:29:30] signed up for the. Where was.

Payman Langroudi: That? Where was that?

Dooroo Ihm: Msc in OSU in Birmingham.

Payman Langroudi: Oh in Birmingham. [00:29:35]

Dooroo Ihm: Yeah. But.

Payman Langroudi: Um, was it distance learning? Yes.

Dooroo Ihm: It was a part time distance [00:29:40] learning.

Payman Langroudi: And how much of it was hands on?

Dooroo Ihm: Quite a lot of hands on. [00:29:45] Really. Like the hands on was I think I was going into [00:29:50] the campus about four times a year, and each time [00:29:55] we’re spending an entire week in hands on practice treating patients.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. [00:30:00]

Dooroo Ihm: Treating patients, doing all the models, sort of mixed.

Payman Langroudi: Was this during [00:30:05] your Cambridge phase that you did there?

Dooroo Ihm: No, I actually started it in [00:30:10] from Dublin. Aha. So I had to travel. And [00:30:15] the first my mentor, he said to me, he suggested you need [00:30:20] to do some study. Like most people would find [00:30:25] it difficult to start in your first year of working. But then he said [00:30:30] to me, if you set your standard high, you will get through easily. Um, it was [00:30:35] difficult because in the first year everyone finds it difficult, like even just working [00:30:40] by yourself. But then I had to study at the same time, [00:30:45] but then carry it out and.

Payman Langroudi: Pay for it as well.

Dooroo Ihm: Absolutely, yes.

Payman Langroudi: How much does it [00:30:50] cost? I think ballpark. I [00:30:55] think it was.

Dooroo Ihm: Probably around 12 K a year. A year. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: For [00:31:00] you did two years. But it could have been three, right?

Dooroo Ihm: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Bloody [00:31:05] old man. So. Yeah. That’s that’s that’s is that advice that you would give someone now like a young, [00:31:10] young dentist would you say do a distance MSC like are you, are you now very competent at [00:31:15] Endo.

Dooroo Ihm: Um, yes I am in, in one [00:31:20] of the branch in banning I purely do endo treatment.

Payman Langroudi: So you get internal referral.

Dooroo Ihm: Internal [00:31:25] referral.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s see. It’s a massive income isn’t it. Yes. It’s a massive income.

Dooroo Ihm: It’s [00:31:30] such a great to be able to, you know, provide that treatment [00:31:35] to the patients. Of course in one of the branch in Blackfriars we have [00:31:40] our specialist. Yeah. Um, I do refer to him mostly because I do, because, [00:31:45] I mean, he spent a lot more time purely dedicating land treatments, and [00:31:50] I want my patients to get better treatments. Not necessarily I [00:31:55] would provide worse treatments than him, but still, I feel much. He’s [00:32:00] the expert. Yeah, he’s the expert, so I’ll let him do the work. And then the [00:32:05] follow up treatments, I can take it on. So I think it’s working together [00:32:10] is important. But the thing about studying MSC on the sideway, [00:32:15] it’s not purely okay. I can provide that treatment plans and [00:32:20] I can do the treatment so I can generate more income. It’s also to be able [00:32:25] to provide a comprehensive treatment plan if you know what [00:32:30] can be done. Yeah. The thing is, before I’ve actually studied Perio [00:32:35] Endo, these many different fields, my [00:32:40] my treatment plan was so narrow and fixed. But [00:32:45] the more you actually know, not necessarily you’re going to do all of that [00:32:50] treatments by yourself. If you’ve got team members, fantastic. You work together, but [00:32:55] patient will go out from your surgery with [00:33:00] one of the best treatments ethical plan that you could possibly plan. [00:33:05] And I think that’s probably one of my advice to if someone can [00:33:10] afford to study at the same time in the young career, because it [00:33:15] will really, really help their career. It may not pay off, you know, [00:33:20] instantly, but in the long term it will definitely [00:33:25] give you the benefit.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s a good point, isn’t it, because you think if you [00:33:30] study, you learn a new skill and then you can charge people for that skill? That’s [00:33:35] one way. But what you’re saying now, that’s another thing that people don’t consider sometimes, [00:33:40] you know, treatment planning comprehensively treatment planning. You know, just knowing what’s possible [00:33:45] is different to actually doing the work itself. It’s another very important skill. [00:33:50] Yeah. So then mid endo you choose to go to perio.

Dooroo Ihm: Yes. [00:33:55]

Payman Langroudi: Um why I think.

Dooroo Ihm: It probably I also had an influence [00:34:00] by the Covid as well. You know, during the Covid, lots of Perrier patients coming in. [00:34:05] Yeah, lots of Perrier is not maintained properly. And [00:34:10] probably speaking of one of my failures was I’ve done [00:34:15] the treatments on Perrier patients and I couldn’t control [00:34:20] the Perrier issues, which if I had known something [00:34:25] more about, you know, more into the Perrier, I could have probably not. [00:34:30] I shouldn’t have done the actual end of treatments because the [00:34:35] foundation isn’t actually looked after before. But when you’re fixed [00:34:40] on the one subject, you tend to see with the narrow visions. [00:34:45] And you know, when when we look at the tooth, okay, whether to save it, to [00:34:50] take it out. So I realised, okay, [00:34:55] I, I’ve learned what I could within the two years because the [00:35:00] third year, usually the distance learning is the dissertation. Yeah. You’re doing [00:35:05] some research article basis. And I thought, why don’t I apply something [00:35:10] on probably will have more passion for the rest of my career which was superior [00:35:15] at Eastman.

Payman Langroudi: Yes.

Dooroo Ihm: So I applied Eastman’s two [00:35:20] years ago and the distance learning again. Yes. Distance learning [00:35:25] again.

Payman Langroudi: It’s three years per year.

Dooroo Ihm: Another three years period. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re in the middle of that [00:35:30] now?

Dooroo Ihm: Yes. I’m on the last year, third year now.

Payman Langroudi: And the cost of that. Let’s [00:35:35] just let’s just break it down. Is it still 12 or is it more.

Dooroo Ihm: No, it’s way more 20. [00:35:40] I think you could probably halfway. So 15, [00:35:45] 15 a year.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And the commitment. What about the commitment, man? That like I said, how [00:35:50] much homework is there? How many lectures are there? Like like how many hours a week.

Dooroo Ihm: It [00:35:55] varies a.

Payman Langroudi: Lot.

Dooroo Ihm: Um, among the university, really, but and [00:36:00] also probably the year of the administration.

Payman Langroudi: I’d expect Eastman’s the [00:36:05] hard core.

Dooroo Ihm: Eastman’s because my, my, my older brother, he’s actually in the kinks. [00:36:10] Yeah. Um, doing distance learning for endodontics. Um, compared [00:36:15] to King’s and Eastman. Eastman is a lot more [00:36:20] focusing. Homeworks? Yeah, yeah, yeah. In a week time, you got to do [00:36:25] this.

Payman Langroudi: It’s famous for it, isn’t it?

Dooroo Ihm: Assignments, like. Yeah. Compared [00:36:30] to my endodontic MSC. That was pretty much leave you alone and [00:36:35] do the lots of cases, and I want you to present it. Oh, no.

Payman Langroudi: Deliverables every [00:36:40] week. Yes.

Dooroo Ihm: But Eastman was more hands on, like, you got [00:36:45] to do this and do that.

Payman Langroudi: So go on, go on. Give me a typical like in a week. How many hours [00:36:50] are you spending on the MSC in a week?

Dooroo Ihm: Probably. You’ll have to sit down decent. Probably [00:36:55] eight eight hours usually on the weekend. [00:37:00] That’s when you’ve got to catch up every day courses and watch the video, because [00:37:05] in a week we get like couple of hours of video. But when you [00:37:10] when you just watch it, you can’t digest it. You’ll have to go back and study [00:37:15] reading articles and study about it. And then some week you got [00:37:20] assignments, which means you can’t go on anywhere. You’ll have to sit there and write articles [00:37:25] and read articles. I’m not particularly the best [00:37:30] student. I’m probably the worst. I mean, I like more clinical, practical [00:37:35] stuff. Yes, to practical is what I like. The thing is, on the reflections [00:37:40] of, you know, writings and reading articles, what I liked about [00:37:45] from Eastman is they also give you what can reflect on [00:37:50] your Practical point. So they have a lot of assignments [00:37:55] saying among your patients when you deliver this treatments, what [00:38:00] you could have done differently, what you could have actually learned from [00:38:05] that case. And these parts are very important for especially someone [00:38:10] who’s doing the distance learning. Yeah. I think because if you don’t actually reflect on your [00:38:15] practical, you can’t learn.

Payman Langroudi: It can become very sort of like book, [00:38:20] can’t it? Exactly. Yeah. So this this is an unfair question. [00:38:25] I don’t know if you said you listened to this pod before. Yeah, but I do ask this question sometimes it’s unfair, but I [00:38:30] just want you to first thing that comes into your head when I say it. What what was your aha moment [00:38:35] with endo and your aha moment with Peria? Like that moment where something [00:38:40] clicked, where you say, oh God, I get it now. What was it? What aspect of those two [00:38:45] when you realised what? Like tell me. Endo. Let’s talk [00:38:50] Endo. Endo. You know [00:38:55] we all studied Endo in uni. Yeah. Yeah. But then you did this extra study and now you said you’re good [00:39:00] at Endo, right? So what was it? What is it about Endo. Which aspect is it? Access. [00:39:05] Is it, is it the cleaning? Is it the filling?

Dooroo Ihm: I think I think.

Payman Langroudi: For me, what moment [00:39:10] was it that made you feel. God, I know I get this now. For me.

Dooroo Ihm: It was the [00:39:15] access cavity. Yeah. Like, a lot of people may spend a lot more time [00:39:20] using different rotary, different systems, you know, system B’s and these [00:39:25] um, and then towards later it became like depending on bioceramic [00:39:30] sealers or none. But for me it was a fundamental access cavity [00:39:35] was the most difficult part I ever faced. But then [00:39:40] towards the end of the my second year of training, the access [00:39:45] was done in a very short time, but clean and nice. [00:39:50] The visibility, the access was brilliant. [00:39:55] And then I think suddenly I start seeing the actual workflow. [00:40:00]

Payman Langroudi: Everything fitted in place after that.

Dooroo Ihm: Because I struggled, because my [00:40:05] access wasn’t good enough to actually finish my treatment. But now, [00:40:10] once I develop the skills that my access is clean and nice and, you know, [00:40:15] perfect. Yeah, but what about it?

Payman Langroudi: I mean, all right, I’ve done loads of access cavities. Yeah, [00:40:20] you’ve done loads of. What is it about your access? Is it bigger?

Dooroo Ihm: Not necessarily bigger, [00:40:25] but it’s just quicker. I think [00:40:30] quicker at the same time. And then with a minimum distractions [00:40:35] as.

Payman Langroudi: In it’s minimally invasive. Yes. So how do you do it? Because you know where [00:40:40] you’re going or do you use ultrasonics or what do you do.

Dooroo Ihm: Well, we use sort of like [00:40:45] ultrasonics at the same time. But then you once you’ve done quite a lot of access [00:40:50] cavity I think there’s, there’s rules to make the access cavity but [00:40:55] you automatically know where you are. Yeah. And I think with that skills [00:41:00] you automatically make not necessarily really narrow access but [00:41:05] the correct correct angles and correct amounts and which then [00:41:10] that will deliver better preparations for the actual canals [00:41:15] because the access is nice.

Payman Langroudi: When you when you do an endo MSC, do they have like a whole [00:41:20] module on access like.

Dooroo Ihm: I think, I think depends on who’s your [00:41:25] teacher? Our teacher head of the department James Pritchard. He [00:41:30] was probably top ten endodontists in the UK [00:41:35] around that time. He focussed on the access cavity, [00:41:40] probably throughout the two years, he [00:41:45] said. If your starting point isn’t good enough, you can’t. You shouldn’t move forward. And [00:41:50] you know how we probably taken a lot of x rays to have a look [00:41:55] where there’s a good and a bad ending? Yeah. Whether it’s failing, he didn’t care too [00:42:00] much about it. He said, take a picture of your axis. Oh, if [00:42:05] you don’t do it, then you can’t improve it. Because it [00:42:10] may appear to be good on x ray sometimes. But then if your axis [00:42:15] isn’t good, it’s not going to work.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so interesting because, you know, the more I’ve had people [00:42:20] sitting here, experts in all all different areas, right? And the [00:42:25] more I learn about it, the more I realise being an expert really [00:42:30] is about doing the basics.

Dooroo Ihm: Fundamental, doing.

Payman Langroudi: The basics very well. [00:42:35] Yeah. Yeah. Not shortcutting the basics. Yes. Yeah. And unfortunately [00:42:40] in dentistry, a lot of what we, we we do. It’s kind of a people looking for hacks. [00:42:45] Yes. People looking for shortcuts. Shortcuts. And that’s [00:42:50] that’s I really think that’s the difference between when you refer someone to a prosecco specialist. [00:42:55] Of course, there’s, you know, treatment planning things and so on. Yeah. But somehow [00:43:00] I want you to say, oh, there’s this magic thing, and you’re not saying there’s a magic thing, you’re just saying, do [00:43:05] it right. Do it. I don’t think.

Dooroo Ihm: There is, actually I don’t think in in [00:43:10] healthcare there is a shortcut. I mean, even when I’m doing the Perrier MSC, like [00:43:15] every teacher is telling us and how to correct [00:43:20] our postures. Mhm. You know, and also the groups of scalers [00:43:25] and how to sharpen them. And it’s just you probably [00:43:30] feel in the first year gosh what am I paying for. Yeah. What am I doing here. [00:43:35] But that’s the fundamental they, they drill into because [00:43:40] with these fundamental things putting together, it will [00:43:45] reflect on the resort and then also it will enhance your speed, quality, [00:43:50] everything.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s talk perio. What’s the aha [00:43:55] in perio that you had?

Dooroo Ihm: I think the perio is when you see the patients [00:44:00] as a review. Yeah that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Satisfying. [00:44:05] Yes. Yeah. But what’s an aha in terms of treatment planning treatment itself? I [00:44:10] don’t know if you’ve gotten to perio plastic surgery and all that. I’ve, I’ve. [00:44:15]

Dooroo Ihm: Actually done like the surgical path now like few [00:44:20] cases I’m doing as I’m in the third year. Um, I’ve seen some [00:44:25] of the really, really good results, like regenerations of the bones [00:44:30] nicely. Um, but I think perio [00:44:35] for me is a still training pathway because [00:44:40] for me Perrier was too many factors [00:44:45] is involved in that field. It’s not like I can deliver good [00:44:50] treatments and then job done. You got the.

Payman Langroudi: Host response and all of that. It’s just it’s a two [00:44:55] multifactorial.

Dooroo Ihm: Yeah. So even for me to say yes, this is the best treatment plan. [00:45:00] This is the best treatment plan. There’s no such a thing. It’s it’s literally [00:45:05] patient journey. You got you got you can help them, but you can’t [00:45:10] change their directions. You can just guide them a little bit. So [00:45:15] for me, it’s probably the most challenging work that I have done so [00:45:20] far because initially you thought it’s going to work. Yeah. [00:45:25] And in the beginning it really, really worked. You know, eight weeks later you [00:45:30] review the patients. Fantastic. Two months later, back to square one. And [00:45:35] then what do you do.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I think what people don’t sometimes appreciate is by the [00:45:40] time the patient gets to a periodontist, they’re complex. [00:45:45] Yeah. It’s, you know, in practice you might treat a bunch of perio patients deep [00:45:50] root, plain, whatever it is you do. And and it works out. Yeah. But there [00:45:55] are some patients that with the best oral hygiene, with the best root cleaning. [00:46:00] Still the disease is, is bothering. And it’s a systemic thing. [00:46:05] Yes. Have you looked into that the sort of the link between perio and systemic? You know, what [00:46:10] do they call it? Biological dentistry.

Dooroo Ihm: It’s it’s huge fields to [00:46:15] look into it because it’s it’s something to tell the truth, I [00:46:20] think in private practice is is slightly outside of scope, because [00:46:25] it’s not easy for you to actually communicate with a GP and [00:46:30] to get letters sent out and then have it received. Yeah. And [00:46:35] to maintain those patients, it’s very difficult, I think, for me. Sometimes [00:46:40] I had a lot of, you know, medical compromise patients coming [00:46:45] in for perio treatment. I tell the truth. Go to [00:46:50] go and see one of my teacher in Eastman, because I can treat you [00:46:55] as if short term, but in order to maintain [00:47:00] it for the rest of your life, because the gum disease is chronic disease. [00:47:05] Yeah. And that’s a long, long journey. We’re talking about. So [00:47:10] for me, the systemics involved, if there’s [00:47:15] 1 or 2 that you could control it, it’s fine. But I’m talking about, like, immunocompromised, [00:47:20] like lots of medication. She goes to hospital [00:47:25] in and out quite often. Then I tell them, this is this is [00:47:30] probably beyond what I can help. I think I think that’s, you know, in in all honesty, [00:47:35] I think that’s what we’re also trained to tell the patients.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:47:40] I mean, you’re right. It’s one of the aspects of being a professional right. [00:47:45] To know your limits. Yes. And if you know someone who can do it better than you, [00:47:50] like what you said about the endo, right? Absolutely. If I’d done two years of endo, I’d be taking [00:47:55] on all the endo myself. But, but but you make a good point, right? If there’s an actual specialist in the [00:48:00] room next door. Yeah.

Dooroo Ihm: I always give it to you because I know, like, [00:48:05] as long as you’ve seen one root canal from him. Yeah. Like, you know, you can [00:48:10] trust. So you pass everything to him, and he appreciates, you know, it worked [00:48:15] together, and then he sends any, any other work to be done for his patient, and he sends it to [00:48:20] me. Yeah. So for me, there’s no like, a lot of people probably think, oh, the [00:48:25] reason why people do study masters is in order to do more [00:48:30] treatments for me. It’s really not for me. It’s not knowing [00:48:35] upsets me. But if I know [00:48:40] it’s okay, not necessarily. I have to be the one of the best in the world. [00:48:45] I don’t like to be. I like to know what what I could offer [00:48:50] to the patients. Yeah, I think that’s the whole reason why I’m doing it.

Payman Langroudi: Which [00:48:55] brings me nicely onto the [00:49:00] reason I’m interested in you.

Dooroo Ihm: I think I know where the conversation [00:49:05] is going.

Payman Langroudi: Yes, well, you’re one of the biggest enlightened users in the country. Mhm. [00:49:10] And it’s funny, man, because like the profile of our users, it’s a very different to [00:49:15] each other. But I want to know you know why, why, why, why is it you do so much bleaching. And [00:49:20] what tips can you give people on that. Because people [00:49:25] suffer with that. You know, I talk to dentists every day who do one a One month, [00:49:30] and then you get someone like you who’s like, every day putting out loads of money. 2 [00:49:35] or 3 a day, like what’s what’s what’s the what’s different about you is, is it that you [00:49:40] doesn’t bother you? This question of I don’t know, people worry that I’m going to embarrass the patient. [00:49:45] People worry that, um, I’m going to look like a pushy salesman. [00:49:50] Like, how come how come those things don’t bother you? And, you know, you’re miles away [00:49:55] from home via Hungary and Hungary and Dublin, and [00:50:00] it’s maybe that’s the reason why it doesn’t bother you, you know, like your outlook is different. Your outlook [00:50:05] is just different to most UK dentists. What do you think?

Dooroo Ihm: Maybe. [00:50:10] But but for me, I mean I was actually surprised [00:50:15] that I do a lot of enlightened.

Payman Langroudi: Firstly, I love that.

Dooroo Ihm: Secondly, [00:50:20] I never actually felt you know, it’s a difficult conversation to [00:50:25] have with patients because. If you listen [00:50:30] very carefully about patients nowadays, they [00:50:35] they also want something in cosmetically [00:50:40] driven treatment. And if you provide [00:50:45] the initial the primary treatment plan and you’ve done it quite [00:50:50] well enough and the patient is also happy what you have also done, then [00:50:55] I tend to give what they want by simply asking, [00:51:00] do you, do you would you like to do any cosmetic work? The [00:51:05] usual conversation is not in a, you know, private practice not everyone’s going to [00:51:10] opt in for I want to do Invisalign, but something [00:51:15] is not too much or not too invasive is whitening [00:51:20] and I don’t bring it up. I guide them to [00:51:25] bring that to me. Then I’ll talk about where we have different.

Payman Langroudi: Do [00:51:30] you really think goes down to this listening?

Dooroo Ihm: I think listening is.

Payman Langroudi: It’s such a big tip, isn’t it? [00:51:35] Listen.

Dooroo Ihm: Listening is probably the key. Like, it’s not like [00:51:40] a lot of people ask me, how do you mention to the patient? But I think they got it wrong [00:51:45] in the first place. It’s not how you bring it up to the patient, how you [00:51:50] listen to the patient. And then let them ask you, because my [00:51:55] patient usually is they ask me, what can I do? [00:52:00]

Payman Langroudi: How do you get it out of them? So okay, patient comes in. It’s an examination lies [00:52:05] back to you straight away. Ask them what’s bothering you and like, how do you get the guy [00:52:10] to to bring it for.

Dooroo Ihm: General Check-up patient? I do all check-ups X-rays [00:52:15] and I mention all the things that they need to have it done. And then [00:52:20] I usually don’t really talk about it straight away on the exam. [00:52:25] I talk about probably towards the end of the treatment [00:52:30] that now we manage to stabilise everything. And [00:52:35] I have seen your compliance. If you want anything cosmetically, [00:52:40] is there anything that you like to have.

Payman Langroudi: Then shut up and listen. [00:52:45] Yeah.

Dooroo Ihm: Then I literally never even mentioned about enlighten any other [00:52:50] whitening Invisalign. Nothing I don’t, I don’t talk and I let them talk. [00:52:55] And then they tend to mention, I think 90% of patients who [00:53:00] doesn’t like to have a little bit brighter teeth. Yeah, everyone does exactly. [00:53:05] But sometimes there they don’t mention it to you because they only met you [00:53:10] for the first time. Yeah. I mean, I think that’s another difficult part. You’ve got to listen to the patient, [00:53:15] like on the first day of meeting someone, they’re not.

Payman Langroudi: Going to open up fully. They’re [00:53:20] not going.

Dooroo Ihm: To open up. And then if you open up too much, putting the shade [00:53:25] next to the, you know, patient’s tooth. They probably might get a little [00:53:30] bit, you know, stepped back and then thinking, oh why? Why? Because I’m not here for this. [00:53:35] Yeah. You know that’s also part of listening. You know, they’re here [00:53:40] to get their teeth clean and then you want to give them what they [00:53:45] want and then you let them decide. I think I think that’s probably [00:53:50] my key. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So important like you call that like a EQ? [00:53:55] Like emotional intelligence. Is it? Yeah.

Dooroo Ihm: They were really [00:54:00] thought about it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but it’s like, you know, at the end of the day, it’s chairside manner. Yeah. [00:54:05] What is your chairside manner compared to the next guy? And it’s [00:54:10] we don’t get taught it. You were taught in Hungary, but we don’t get taught it here [00:54:15] very well. There’s a there’s a big bit on the nervous patient which [00:54:20] there should be. Yeah, but, you know, making people feel at ease, listening [00:54:25] to people getting these things out of them is the difference between a good [00:54:30] dentist and a great dentist. You know, I’ve treated.

Dooroo Ihm: One of my patients last [00:54:35] week. Um, she hadn’t been to the dentist for six [00:54:40] and a half years. She came in for a consultation to me, and I spent half [00:54:45] an hour just talking and listening. And she [00:54:50] got all the treatments done and finished last week. And her husband came [00:54:55] in and she he said to me, I dragged her to 20 [00:55:00] different practices in London and she never wanted [00:55:05] to go back. But on the day you spend half an hour just [00:55:10] talking, not.

Payman Langroudi: Doing any treatment.

Dooroo Ihm: Not doing any treatment she wants. She paid [00:55:15] a deposit for the full treatments. How did you do that? [00:55:20] And then I. I asked her back, why did you come back to [00:55:25] me? She said to me, because you listened to me. And I think, I think that’s probably [00:55:30] the key message, that if I can help any other practice [00:55:35] or clinicians, that I would importantly message to them saying, [00:55:40] certainly. Listen. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Love that. Let’s get on to the darker parts [00:55:45] of this pod. Yes. I don’t know why I love it so much, but [00:55:50] I want to talk about clinical errors. Yes. Black box [00:55:55] thinking. Have you. Have you heard about black box thinking? It’s a plane crash. Plane [00:56:00] crash? Yeah. They go look at the black box. Yeah. And then when they find [00:56:05] out what happened, they share with the whole pilot community [00:56:10] what happened. And blame isn’t part of it at all. Yeah. They just [00:56:15] want people to learn so that that thing doesn’t happen again. But in medical, we [00:56:20] don’t tend to do that because blame is really huge in medical. For [00:56:25] some reason. Yeah. And so what happens is we tend to hide our errors. And then what happens [00:56:30] is the whole community doesn’t learn from the mistakes. So in order to [00:56:35] fix that little problem. Mhm. I want to hear about mistakes. What what [00:56:40] comes to mind when when I say what are some mistakes or the biggest [00:56:45] mistake you’ve made. I think I mean what did you learn.

Dooroo Ihm: Too many mistakes. [00:56:50] I mean to even pinpoint even one like. Extractions. [00:56:55] Root canals. Perio. [00:57:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What kind of mistakes. Like I think.

Dooroo Ihm: Because the endodontic [00:57:05] treatments that, you know, when I was doing the masters, I took on some [00:57:10] difficult case that I should have, you [00:57:15] know, really look into whether it might be fractured tooth or not. Carried [00:57:20] on, missed a fracture. Yeah. Mr.. Fracture carried on, and [00:57:25] I probably could have seen with the loops [00:57:30] that there is a minor fracture line, but probably I tend like I [00:57:35] decided, probably ignore it because.

Payman Langroudi: Subconsciously sort of.

Dooroo Ihm: And then [00:57:40] by the time when I finished the treatments and then fill [00:57:45] the call back up nicely and then twist open, [00:57:50] you know, straight away.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Dooroo Ihm: And [00:57:55] I learned from that mistake quite a lot, because [00:58:00] one, I wasted that entire clinical time [00:58:05] and the tooth came like completely fractured. So I had to [00:58:10] take that tooth out and I didn’t know what to say to the patient. So [00:58:15] luckily it was an easygoing patient. So I explained the situation and nicely [00:58:20] got it done. But that’s another mistakes.

Payman Langroudi: And so now [00:58:25] when you when you’re doing endo you’re looking extra hard for fractures. Exactly. It’s [00:58:30] so interesting isn’t it. Like that little experience for you.

Dooroo Ihm: Occlusions and [00:58:35] why it could have an impact on my treatments. Yeah. And [00:58:40] you know, the other case that I mentioned that I’ve done an endo treatment on [00:58:45] ongoing perio patients. Yeah, yeah. So we do have [00:58:50] to know the endo period lesions. Yeah. Which is involved in two disease together [00:58:55] which I didn’t I purely focus on endodontic [00:59:00] treatments. So that’s me neglecting about the the foundations [00:59:05] period. Um, that’s another failure that I had. Massive failure. It [00:59:10] was didn’t heal at all because.

Payman Langroudi: So you spent hours getting this NDA, right? But [00:59:15] the it was getting reinfected by the period.

Dooroo Ihm: Absolutely. Because I think when [00:59:20] you’re looking at end of period lesion, obviously you’ve got to treat them both. You can’t just treat one and [00:59:25] hoping it’s going to heal automatically. So it was it was never going to work. [00:59:30] And that’s probably another mistake that I learn from as well.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:59:35] about one where how did the patient react to that.

Dooroo Ihm: Wasn’t [00:59:40] happy at all.

Payman Langroudi: It wasn’t.

Dooroo Ihm: Happy. No, I had to I had to give the full money back. [00:59:45] Really? Yeah. But then I that was my mistakes. That I [00:59:50] didn’t really see through all the other treatments. And I think that that through [00:59:55] out that mistake. What I learned a lot from it is what [01:00:00] I talked about is comprehensive.

Payman Langroudi: Comprehensive treatment planning.

Dooroo Ihm: Because if [01:00:05] you if you look into another mistake that I made, it’s Is probably [01:00:10] something a lot of people don’t probably think this is a mistake. I’ve [01:00:15] seen a 16 year old child had a huge [01:00:20] cavity on upper lip syncs, like through the pulp chamber. I’ve [01:00:25] given a root canal treatment plan and. Restore [01:00:30] ability wasn’t so great. [01:00:35] And then I intend to do, you know, a pacifications [01:00:40] to enhance the root closures. And my mentor [01:00:45] came along and he goes, are you delusional? What in the name [01:00:50] of God are you are you going to do with this child? And I looked at him like, [01:00:55] what have I done wrong? Like, I genuinely because I’ve started a root [01:01:00] canal treatment. And he looked at the amount of, you know, [01:01:05] destruction left. And he was This is a cowboy [01:01:10] dentist. What are you doing? And he said to me, if [01:01:15] you just extract that tooth, I’m going to shift to seven and eight and [01:01:20] put in that positions. It’s fine because [01:01:25] he needs ortho and that’s another.

Payman Langroudi: There you go. Comprehensive [01:01:30] treatment.

Dooroo Ihm: Plan. That’s something I didn’t think about. And he he looked at me like obviously he didn’t say it [01:01:35] in front of the patient. He called me out saying, dude, I know you’re passionate about [01:01:40] and you’re studying about endo, but realistically speaking, do you think your endo [01:01:45] and The Crown really like heavily restored crown? Would [01:01:50] it last in his mouth more than 60 years because he’s 16? [01:01:55] What do you think? And I didn’t think about that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:02:00]

Dooroo Ihm: And that’s when I learned, gosh, I could have saved a lot [01:02:05] of money for that child, and that money could have gone towards the author. Yeah. [01:02:10] And then he could have had a nicer such a beautiful smile. At the same time. He [01:02:15] had a perfect molar bite.

Payman Langroudi: Were you aware that author was going [01:02:20] to happen?

Dooroo Ihm: I knew, but I it didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t [01:02:25] connect the dots?

Dooroo Ihm: Yeah. No.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Dooroo Ihm: And obviously that that requires [01:02:30] some team members in, in practice that to be able to, you know, work together [01:02:35] multidisciplinary.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I mean, it’s it’s a good point that the sixes [01:02:40] it depends like here there’s quite a lot of decay, [01:02:45] you know, and so knowing that sixes are [01:02:50] not going to last when they’ve had fillings when they’re 13 year old and then filling again [01:02:55] at 16. And you know, sometimes it’s a good point. It’s a good point what you’re [01:03:00] saying there. How about a case where the patient really didn’t take it well at all. [01:03:05] Like, well, who’s your most difficult patient? What comes to mind? [01:03:10]

Dooroo Ihm: Difficult patient is probably early loss [01:03:15] with the dentures. And they expect [01:03:20] something more likely to be. Have it done.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. They don’t see it as a wooden leg. Right. [01:03:25] Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Dooroo Ihm: I think these patients are difficult. And also. [01:03:30]

Payman Langroudi: But could you think of one?

Dooroo Ihm: I [01:03:35] had a patient that lost probably all [01:03:40] of his teeth, apart from two teeth hanging in due [01:03:45] to the Perrier. He asked me to have [01:03:50] a nice set of implants or on six [01:03:55] or on four. And he’s seen another consultation and they said, no, we can’t [01:04:00] do this is nearly impossible. And then he came back to me saying, [01:04:05] I want nice denture that doesn’t move at all. And [01:04:10] I simply described to him, it’s not possible, but [01:04:15] I need some retentions, otherwise I can’t. Um, [01:04:20] because it’s pretty flat. There’s not structures that I can use [01:04:25] or hold onto because he’s lost his teeth probably 30 years ago. Yeah. And [01:04:30] he’s been using nothing. He’s been grinding with their [01:04:35] alveolar process together. And I think I made it I [01:04:40] made it probably what I could do the best denture you [01:04:45] could. And he wasn’t happy.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. That can get really psychologically [01:04:50] damaging. Yeah.

Dooroo Ihm: And then I’m thinking maybe in, you [01:04:55] know, in a sense that, you know, you you’re thinking maybe you shouldn’t have treated him. Yeah. Yeah, [01:05:00] yeah. But then on the other hand, he wasn’t happy. But [01:05:05] I could see him every, every time that he’s using the denture. So [01:05:10] at least I got to at some point. But [01:05:15] I couldn’t really make him happy. You know, I think that’s that’s difficult [01:05:20] patience for me.

Payman Langroudi: I think it gets particularly difficult if you’re like, that’s [01:05:25] a difficult situation. Yeah. You’re trying your best. You’re really trying your best. [01:05:30] You’re asking people you’re doing everything correctly. And [01:05:35] then a complaint comes in and the patient says something like, you weren’t [01:05:40] trying. You, you know, you you did a bad job. And it’s weird because [01:05:45] often the patients you go out of your way for are the ones that end up that way. And, [01:05:50] you know, the thing is, you’re going out of your way to do something slightly out of the ordinary, which [01:05:55] is get this guy retention where retention isn’t possible, you know, And then [01:06:00] that becomes the patient that complains. I think as you get older, your sixth sense kind of kicks [01:06:05] in and you learn to avoid those patients. But again, [01:06:10] for for younger dentists, it’s part of the process. It’s part of the learning process. [01:06:15]

Dooroo Ihm: The learning process is really because my dad’s always giving [01:06:20] me advice because I thought it was a case. Selection is important. What [01:06:25] case you can do what you can’t do. Yeah, which is important as well. But then my [01:06:30] dad and my uncle said to me, once you get to the certain years of experience, what you tend to do [01:06:35] is not selecting by the case, you select by the patients, and then that’s [01:06:40] something you will learn, not necessarily your, you know, ignoring some [01:06:45] of the patient, but to be able to provide those kind of treatment plans that [01:06:50] you would select those patient to do because, you know, at the end of the day, [01:06:55] they’re not going to be the one causing a problem. Yeah. We come back.

Payman Langroudi: To that relationship [01:07:00] with your patient. Right. Mhm. What would you do if you had half [01:07:05] a day off from everything and everyone. No [01:07:10] expectations. No homework. What. [01:07:15] Go for a drive. A drive. Yeah. What kind of. What kind of a drive.

Dooroo Ihm: Just [01:07:20] countryside. Yeah. The place I like to [01:07:25] go when I want to switch off. Everything is either Cotswold or Lake [01:07:30] District. Oh, really? Somewhere. Somewhere. Really? Countryside. You know, not [01:07:35] many people. Peaceful within the nature. Switch off [01:07:40] everything. Yeah. I’ve got. I’ve got two dogs, so. Oh, really? And I usually take them out [01:07:45] for a walk and, you know, sit there and just. Yeah. Spending time [01:07:50] in the nature. Yeah. I think that that’s that gives me the peaceful [01:07:55] Minds and to just, you know, get rid of all the stress [01:08:00] that you had.

Payman Langroudi: Recharge.

Dooroo Ihm: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. [01:08:05] Let’s end it with our usual questions. I’ve enjoyed this fantasy dinner [01:08:10] party. Three guests, dead or alive. Who would [01:08:15] you have?

Dooroo Ihm: I think first guess is my parents, obviously.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:08:20] should we have them as one guest? Yeah. Yeah, I think I think.

Dooroo Ihm: My parents, just for [01:08:25] me, extraordinarily, I spend a lot of time talking to my dad [01:08:30] because we share the same path and passions about dentistry. And [01:08:35] my mom actually went to hygienist cause she. She used to be a math [01:08:40] teacher. Um, she retired in early age [01:08:45] because my dad didn’t want her to work. And my dad wanted her to look after me and [01:08:50] my brother when I went to dental school, I hated it, I [01:08:55] hate studying.

Payman Langroudi: God, but you’re a maths teacher in [01:09:00] Korea, mum. Oh my God, you must have had that Kumon stuff [01:09:05] going. Yeah. Oh my goodness. My heart sinks when you say. [01:09:10] Mum, who’s a math teacher in Korea? Go on. Um. [01:09:15]

Dooroo Ihm: And then she went [01:09:20] to the Hygienic Schools. To show me at even her age, 60, [01:09:25] I can still study.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, at that point. Wow. So what a woman, I [01:09:30] like that.

Dooroo Ihm: No, she actually works in dad’s clinics. You know. Oh, really? As [01:09:35] a hygienist. Here and there. And I think that’s why they encouraged [01:09:40] me a lot. And they actually support me. Throughout their life. If [01:09:45] I, if I think about now, you know, I’m at the age of talking about having a kids [01:09:50] or not. I don’t think I can ever sacrifice that much [01:09:55] like what they have done for me. So they’re probably the first in the guest. [01:10:00] Second guest would be Sean Murray, the practice [01:10:05] owner where I worked in Dublin. Excellent, because for me, he’s still [01:10:10] one of the best dentists that I look upon. Because on [01:10:15] Saturday, I remember one day as an emergency [01:10:20] patient came in, didn’t have any money. He didn’t have any [01:10:25] money whatsoever. He was in excruciating pain. Sean [01:10:30] happened to come in on Saturday, just do some paperwork. I was working on that [01:10:35] day and he just took the patient in by himself, and then he got [01:10:40] all the treatment done, and he let him go without paying anything. And [01:10:45] I simply went up to him after work and asked him, why did you do that? And [01:10:50] he said to me, because I can’t. Yeah that’s true. [01:10:55] Before thinking about how much money you make, how [01:11:00] much we can actually deliver, you’ve got to put patient first. Well, [01:11:05] whether they’re going to come back or they’re going to come come back with money or not, [01:11:10] you’ve got to treat them. And I don’t work on Saturday, but I happen to be here. [01:11:15] Just a coincidence. I’ve got to help them. And I think from that moment [01:11:20] I thought, I want to be like him. You know, I want to be a [01:11:25] genuinely a good dentist. Doesn’t have to be, you know, my name needs to be top [01:11:30] of the, you know, list. I just want to be a good dentist, I think. I think that’s [01:11:35] why it’s probably the second in the guest. Third [01:11:40] Gordon Ramsay.

Payman Langroudi: Why? Gordon Ramsay like [01:11:45] watching him.

Dooroo Ihm: I think I got through [01:11:50] my dental school because of him. What? Um. When I was studying in dental [01:11:55] school, I hated studying, so I started watching his cooking show. [01:12:00] Yeah. And you know how he expresses anger? [01:12:05] Yeah. I loved it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I loved it. I love it. I love it on TikTok. I love it on TikTok. I love it [01:12:10] when he’s screaming at someone. And then you donkey.

Dooroo Ihm: I actually [01:12:15] start, you know, cooking as a as a hobby.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:12:20] And because of it. Yeah.

Dooroo Ihm: Because of it. And it actually took my mind off quite [01:12:25] a lot of times. So. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a nice little party, [01:12:30] man. He could do the cooking, right? Absolutely. Some. [01:12:35] Some people. Yeah. Yeah. Some people invite, I don’t know, Michael Jackson to do the singing. You’ve [01:12:40] shortcutted the cooking. Final question. The [01:12:45] deathbed question. A bit weird for someone as young as you, but you’re [01:12:50] on your deathbed, surrounded by your friends, family, loved ones. You [01:12:55] can give them three pieces of wisdom. What would they be?

Dooroo Ihm: I [01:13:00] think one is never give up. If you if you want something, [01:13:05] you’ve got to put everything what you have to achieve. Secondly, [01:13:10] listening to others very [01:13:15] similar to the what I like to do with my patient. Listen to [01:13:20] others. You don’t have to talk too much, just listen to others. Thirdly, [01:13:25] dream big. I think you’ve got to dream big. If [01:13:30] you if you if you want something, you’ve got to. Because I think if [01:13:35] you if you want to set the goals, you know, really, really big, [01:13:40] you’re bound to get somewhere close by Because [01:13:45] we’re not perfect. We’re human being. Yeah, we tend to fail. Not [01:13:50] everyone will make it through, you know. But if you dream big enough, I think [01:13:55] you will always get there.

Payman Langroudi: It’s good advice. It’s good advice. Do you think you’ll go back [01:14:00] to Korea eventually?

Dooroo Ihm: Thoughtful for [01:14:05] the time being? No, I don’t think so.

Payman Langroudi: But eventually.

Dooroo Ihm: Even though I don’t think so. [01:14:10]

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Dooroo Ihm: Yeah. Because you know how probably a lot of Asians [01:14:15] or immigrants probably feel about living abroad. [01:14:20] Yeah. But for me, I’m used to it. I’ve done it from age [01:14:25] 16 on my own. And compared to that time, it’s [01:14:30] nothing. And I like the country and. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:14:35] your partner’s Korean, you said. Yes. She is. Don’t you think it’s hard, [01:14:40] for instance, having kids without your parents around? I mean, I did it, by the way. I [01:14:45] had kids, my parents and my wife’s parents were abroad. Tough. [01:14:50] It is tough.

Dooroo Ihm: I think that’s probably another reason why I’m actually in the process [01:14:55] of talking to my parents to come home. Yeah. Convince them to move here. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And by the way, one [01:15:00] of the most loveliest thing about having kids is the relationship with your parents, with, you know, with their grandparents. [01:15:05] Yes. Probably the loveliest thing about having children. If you’re if [01:15:10] you’re thinking about children, it’s the best thing about having children. That relationship, watching that relationship, [01:15:15] you know? Okay.

Dooroo Ihm: Um, when did you have your first.

Payman Langroudi: Mine are 17 [01:15:20] and 14 now. Okay. And since since that time, my parents have moved [01:15:25] back to. Okay. Okay. Um, but, you know, having kids is hard. Hard. [01:15:30] And so you want the plus side as much as you can. Right? As [01:15:35] much as I can. Yeah.

Dooroo Ihm: That will that will help.

Payman Langroudi: Massive pleasure to have you. Thank [01:15:40] you so much for coming in. Thank you very.

[TRANSITION]: Much.

Payman Langroudi: Really, really enjoyed that. I actually learnt a lot from you. I mean.

Dooroo Ihm: I’ve [01:15:45] learned a lot from using enlightened company and [01:15:50] it’s just an amazing journey.

Payman Langroudi: I just learned a lot from you on this conversation. I really, really did. [01:15:55] Thank you so much. Thank you.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, [01:16:00] the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [01:16:05] in dentistry. Your hosts Payman [01:16:10] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. [01:16:15] If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from [01:16:20] me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has [01:16:25] had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think [01:16:30] about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you think [01:16:35] might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six [01:16:40] star rating.