Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by Mini Smile Makeover. Mini smile makeovers are two [00:00:05] day anterior composite course with Depeche Palmer, who I really believe is one of the top composite [00:00:10] teachers in the world right now. We’ve done this course so many times, we’ve had 2000 dentists [00:00:15] go through it, and the feeling people have at the end of it is not only they can execute on [00:00:20] composite veneers, but they’re just better dentists at the end of it. Have a look. Mini smile makeover.com [00:00:25] for dates. Let’s get to the pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders, the [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [00:00:40] in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:00:50] been a great pleasure to welcome Sara Shirvani onto the podcast, [00:00:55] otherwise known as Sara the Hygienist, aka um. Lovely to have you. [00:01:00]

Zara: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Payman Langroudi: Zahra is a hygienist who’s [00:01:05] really at the sort of cutting edge of the whole guided biofilm biofilm therapy, [00:01:10] um, revolution that that’s happening. Um, someone who [00:01:15] I’ve been talking to a long time about enlighten. And the amount of whitening that she [00:01:20] puts through is really pretty impressive. And I’m interested in, you know, Zahra. Why? You’re [00:01:25] that cat. How come you, um. Some hygienists, when I [00:01:30] talk to them and I say, hey, how about whitening? They just really shy away from it and they don’t [00:01:35] want to have that conversation at all. And then you get the odd hygienist here and there. And our biggest [00:01:40] user, for instance, in the country is the hygienist there. That’s pushing why, [00:01:45] why, why, why are you why are you so calm about it. And everyone else is so worried?

Zara: For [00:01:50] me, I mean, I always want to do more. I [00:01:55] love the gums and I love hygiene. But I didn’t just want to stick to hygiene. I always want to expand my skill [00:02:00] set. Being able to do perio, being able to do whitening, um, is great because why [00:02:05] not? I’m able to do it. I’ve done the training and also to give patients [00:02:10] that confidence in their smile, especially during Covid when everyone was on zoom and they were just looking [00:02:15] at each other. And I feel like patients don’t like the colour of their teeth, but then [00:02:20] they might not want to talk about it. They might not want to say it. So just asking a simple question like, you [00:02:25] know, does the colour of your teeth bother you or anything? Then that gives them the opportunity to open up. [00:02:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but why do others have a problem? I think like sort of, [00:02:35] you know, Steelman, the argument, look at the other side of the argument and make their case for [00:02:40] them.

Zara: Yeah, I think it can either be a lack of knowledge. So if they haven’t [00:02:45] done the training or they’re not confident or.

[TRANSITION]: Competent, what’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Knowledge? The knowledge that can make your teeth white.

[TRANSITION]: You go on a.

Zara: One day training [00:02:50] course.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Zara: Um, I think it’s also the fear of [00:02:55] within the team. So if the dentist pushes that, you know the whitening should be given [00:03:00] to the dentist and the dentist should be do the whitening, then the hygienist is going to feel inferior, like they shouldn’t [00:03:05] or they can’t. Um, and I think also the complications that can [00:03:10] come from that, they feel like they, they’re not competent enough to deal with it. Um, and [00:03:15] I think the patients itself, sometimes you just get patient expectations and you think that you can’t [00:03:20] manage them. So I think a combination of all those things.

Payman Langroudi: I think look, classically, there’s many dentists don’t talk [00:03:25] about it either. Yeah. And people say I don’t want to embarrass people. I don’t want to offend people. [00:03:30] You know, that whole worry, you know, that the patient is going to feel like you’re telling them they’re ugly [00:03:35] or something. I get all of that. Yeah. That’s I would say that’s a general with whitening. Um, [00:03:40] but how do you get over this financial side of it [00:03:45] in your practices? I mean, if what happens if the dentist has to prescribe it? So [00:03:50] how do you is there an arrangement? Do you talk to the dentist at the beginning and say, I’m going to discuss [00:03:55] whitening with this patient and I’m going to carry it out? Or how do you do it?

Zara: Usually if the patient is a direct [00:04:00] access patient so they come in for their hygiene first they’ll have the hygiene assess the gums and [00:04:05] then they are also interested in whitening. Then I tell them that that’s fine we can do it. Take the shade guide, [00:04:10] give them the consult, and then then say that you need to see the dentist for an exam [00:04:15] just to check that you’re dentally fit. If you’ve got fillings or tooth decay that needs to be addressed, then we need [00:04:20] to do those first. So when I send them to the dentist for the exam, I also just message the dentist, you know, saying, [00:04:25] please, can you see the patient for the exam and send me a prescription if Dental [00:04:30] fit, if they need to do the fillings, I’ll do the fillings first and then I’ll do the whitening. And if not [00:04:35] and it’s all okay, then I’ll do the whitening.

[TRANSITION]: But then does.

Payman Langroudi: It sometimes happen that the dentist wants to do the whitening himself? [00:04:40]

Zara: I have been in situations when it’s been like that, when that’s been the case, [00:04:45] and if the dentist has seen the patient first and had that conversation with the dentist with [00:04:50] the patient, that’s fine because that’s his.

[TRANSITION]: That’s.

Zara: Yeah, that’s his. That’s his or hers. If [00:04:55] they see me first and then they bring it up or they bring it up in the hygiene, then I [00:05:00] can do it. So it works both ways. And you just need to have that mutual respect.

Payman Langroudi: Can’t you. Can’t it [00:05:05] be like a three way financial situation where both the hygienist and [00:05:10] the dentist benefit? I mean, if I, if I was a practice owner, that’s the way [00:05:15] I’d set it up. Yeah. Then you’d be working together. Yeah. To make that happen. And the [00:05:20] principle is what is it, too many mouths to feed.

Zara: It might get a little bit complicated [00:05:25] in terms of who’s actually doing the who’s presenting it to the patient. [00:05:30] And when you’re giving the consult, you’re giving the consult, but you’re also getting the patient on board. [00:05:35] And I feel like that’s that person is that that’s when you’ve [00:05:40] basically you’ve done all the work that’s doing the work, not taking the shade guide.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Zara: So [00:05:45] that person should actually be in.

[TRANSITION]: Because I used to have a.

Payman Langroudi: Canadian hygienist used to work [00:05:50] for us as a salesperson because she was Canadian trained and she was telling me in [00:05:55] Alberta, not not all over Canada, but in Alberta, the the way the setup is, she [00:06:00] said hygienists make more money than associates because they push whitening [00:06:05] so much and fluoride treatments and, you know, for the practice, it’s marvellous [00:06:10] because they can they don’t need the prescription either. They can just go straight in.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:06:15] and I think it’s kind of an ignored thing. I mean, like, practices are on to this silly idea, [00:06:20] I think, of trying to sell oral hygiene products to the patient. Like, I don’t [00:06:25] know, what is that? Electric toothbrushes. Yeah. Where the amount of money you can make from those is negligible. [00:06:30] Whereas with the whitening treatment, there could be a six £700 whitening treatment. If you’re going [00:06:35] to spend time talking about something, talk about that.

[TRANSITION]: Absolutely.

Zara: I think also being in the UK, [00:06:40] we’re always, you know, a little bit on the defence or keep calm. We don’t want to rock the boat [00:06:45] and that mentality. Whereas if you actually think about it, there is nothing scary. There’s [00:06:50] nothing scary about it. It’s just having that honest conversation with the patient. And [00:06:55] at the end of the day, as long as you’re ethically selling it, then it’s ethically [00:07:00] justifiable. Whether it’s fluoride, whether it’s whitening, whatever it is, you can justify [00:07:05] that to the patient, to the principal in your notes.

Payman Langroudi: So usually [00:07:10] we start with a backstory. I just had that question. Just a burning question. Let’s [00:07:15] get to that. Where were you born? When did you decide to [00:07:20] do hygiene? Because you did genetics first.

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Give me give me that story. The what kind [00:07:25] of kid were you?

Zara: So I was born and raised in London, um, fully Iranian [00:07:30] and very proud to be Iranian. I was quite a tomboy growing [00:07:35] up. I was actually the loud, cheeky one, and my sister was the calm [00:07:40] one. And then things kind of switched as we got older. I ended up being the calm one and she [00:07:45] was the cheeky one and I think they’ve switched back again now.

Payman Langroudi: I should say we’ve had your sister on the [00:07:50] Mind Movers podcast. Sana.

Zara: Yeah, yeah.

[TRANSITION]: She’s back.

Payman Langroudi: To that episode.

[TRANSITION]: But [00:07:55] go on.

Zara: And so I where in.

[TRANSITION]: London.

Zara: In [00:08:00] north west London and yeah. So I’ve got a younger sister. Everyone [00:08:05] thinks she’s older, but I’m the eldest. And um, growing up I [00:08:10] loved anything that was creative. So music, drama, all [00:08:15] of that stuff. And then I went into a very academic school where [00:08:20] they didn’t really have any of those things. And obviously, being from [00:08:25] an Iranian background, you had to either be a doctor or engineer or a lawyer and that’s it.

[TRANSITION]: Or failure. [00:08:30]

Zara: Otherwise you’re a failure. Um, which is not right. But [00:08:35] that was how we were raised. And, um, so I basically went to [00:08:40] school, um, and I wasn’t very much academic, [00:08:45] I would say. Um, I just really, really had to put focus and attention. [00:08:50] I always wanted to do different things. Got easily distracted, and I basically [00:08:55] went to university and studied genetics. And I loved genetics. It was actually CSI [00:09:00] that got me into it.

[TRANSITION]: But really? Yeah, it’s not that.

Zara: It’s not as a Swansea University. [00:09:05]

[TRANSITION]: Swansea. Yeah. Yeah.

Zara: So I actually wanted to move outside of London for university [00:09:10] because I did want the full experience.

[TRANSITION]: I was in Cardiff and. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, nice. Yeah. [00:09:15] Do that. Mumbles mumbles. Yeah, yeah. Joe’s ice cream. Yeah yeah yeah [00:09:20] yeah yeah.

Zara: Um. And then I ended up moving out of the country, so to speak, outside of England. [00:09:25] And I loved all the lab work. Um, and [00:09:30] I actually did a three month internship in Amsterdam, and I was working with the lead professor in chlamydia, [00:09:35] so that was fascinating. Um, but it’s not as as exciting [00:09:40] as what you see on CSI. The reality isn’t. Um.

[TRANSITION]: Never is.

Zara: Yeah. [00:09:45] And then.

Payman Langroudi: You like. Was that. Was that the first time you were away from home?

[TRANSITION]: Um, [00:09:50] I mean, Swansea, not Amsterdam. I mean.

Zara: For that period of time. Yes. [00:09:55] Obviously I did.

[TRANSITION]: Trips and things.

Zara: Like that. I loved it. I mean, I was just like, [00:10:00] this is going to be great. I’m going to be partying all the time. It wasn’t that much of [00:10:05] partying because I went to quite a conservative school. Um, I went to a, [00:10:10] um, Islamic school, a private Islamic school. And then I went to a Church of England [00:10:15] school as well for, for my, um, in sixth form.

[TRANSITION]: So. [00:10:20] But when you got to.

Payman Langroudi: Swansea and you were finally let free.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Did you get a little bit berserk?

Zara: I didn’t I was still [00:10:25] controlled, I would say. Obviously I went out I, you know, [00:10:30] you don’t need to answer to anyone. I came to my dorm whenever I wanted to. Um, I was still [00:10:35] sensible, but I definitely went for it because I wanted that university experience, [00:10:40] and I think that’s the only time in your life when you are carefree and you have that [00:10:45] opportunity, you, you know, you don’t. You go into adulting after that. So that [00:10:50] was great. And, um, I.

[TRANSITION]: Know you were into.

Payman Langroudi: Genetics. Yeah. Into [00:10:55] it enough to go and study in Amsterdam and all that. So why didn’t you become [00:11:00] a continue?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Zara: Because it’s all the lab work I loved. [00:11:05] But a lot of it was research based. So it was just me and a computer, and I was missing people [00:11:10] I loved, you know, speaking to people. I was very much a people person. And [00:11:15] so I basically did a 180 and went into acting. I was part [00:11:20] of the National Youth Theatre and I loved it.

[TRANSITION]: Um, what do your parents.

Payman Langroudi: Think of that?

Zara: They [00:11:25] weren’t as supportive at the time, obviously. Um, but [00:11:30] my mum at the end of it did kind of come around to it and said, [00:11:35] okay, fine. Like, you know.

[TRANSITION]: You know what? Go for it.

Payman Langroudi: What worries me is that [00:11:40] this old thing about doctor, dentist, whatever lawyer. It’s all [00:11:45] well and good on the first generation. I kind of get it. I remember my mum sitting [00:11:50] me down and saying, look, we had a revolution. And the only people who managed to do [00:11:55] well after that were the doctors and dentists. So that’s why it should become a dentist. I remember that conversation. [00:12:00] And so, you know, first generation trauma. Yeah, but it would be a goddamn shame [00:12:05] if the next generation, like your kid, if you then projected the same [00:12:10] thing onto your kid. It’d be a bit of a shame. And, you know, if we all do that, if we all constantly [00:12:15] project that to our kids, there will be no movies, there’ll be no music, there’ll be no plays [00:12:20] here. On the other hand, my kids are at that stage now. Yeah they [00:12:25] are. My oldest is about to go to university, and you strangely find yourself [00:12:30] giving that same advice.

Zara: Um, what does he want to study?

Payman Langroudi: Aerospace engineering. [00:12:35] He’s saying. You know, but but it’s a weird thing because, you know, you know, that classic thing. Oh, [00:12:40] let them do what they like. Yeah. The reality is, the vast majority of kids don’t know what [00:12:45] they like. That’s true. Yeah. And so my kids, what do you want to be? I don’t know. Um, [00:12:50] my daughter right now is 14. I have no idea. Yeah. So then they kind of. They [00:12:55] kind of looking to you for advice and then advice wise, you kind of say, oh, well, I don’t know, become [00:13:00] a professional of some sort, make some sort of sense. Yeah. And so, you know, we’ll never [00:13:05] end up with the filmmakers.

Zara: I totally agree with that. Coming from [00:13:10] a parent parents point of view, because you want to know that your child’s going to be stable, have a future, be [00:13:15] able to stand on their own two feet, I think also. Yeah, if we keep doing that, then generation [00:13:20] isn’t going to change. And instead of improving, we’re just going to stay the same or even get worse. [00:13:25] So I think there needs to be a balance between, you know, go out, experience [00:13:30] life, take the gap year, you know, travel, Try different things. See what it is [00:13:35] that you like. You know, go into shadowing a few different areas.

[TRANSITION]: And see what you.

Zara: Like. Exactly. [00:13:40] Taste stuff. Because if you don’t taste it, you’re never going to know. Um, but at the same time, I think [00:13:45] completely leaving it down to a teenager child [00:13:50] at that time. You’re right. We don’t know what we want. We’re told to grow up, go to school, go to university, get married, have [00:13:55] kids. That’s your life. And it doesn’t work that way. Um, I think it can go the other way as well. If you [00:14:00] completely let the child go, which isn’t right. So I think you still need to be there in the background giving advice. [00:14:05] But you should also let the child choose first, and then you can, [00:14:10] you know.

Payman Langroudi: But if your parents were fully behind you being an actress, do you think, like you [00:14:15] would have gone that direction?

Zara: Yeah, I think having a bit more support would have made me feel like, [00:14:20] yes, I can do it. And I didn’t feel that.

Payman Langroudi: Mm.

[TRANSITION]: So then how [00:14:25] did why hygiene.

Zara: So I, so the reason [00:14:30] that I left was that only obviously 1% you know of actors actresses [00:14:35] become can work. Otherwise you’re living from job to job. So I needed that security. [00:14:40] And my mum said she was in the industry and she said.

[TRANSITION]: In the Dental. [00:14:45]

Zara: In the Dental industry.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. What was she doing?

Zara: She was a, she was she started off as a dental [00:14:50] nurse and then was a practice manager for 20 years. Then she did a general nursing, studied [00:14:55] that, and now she’s an aesthetic practitioner. So she’s just my Wonder Woman. [00:15:00] Um, and I went to, um. [00:15:05] Yeah. She said that it’s really competitive. Why don’t you try dental hygiene? And she basically [00:15:10] had a hygienist who was working in the same practice at the time and was still friends now. I went to shadow her and [00:15:15] I was like, oh, wow, this looks so satisfying. Just seeing her like, take off that couch.

[TRANSITION]: Do you not consider dentistry? [00:15:20]

Zara: Not at the time, no.

[TRANSITION]: Why the extra five years? Yes. [00:15:25]

Zara: Yeah. I was like, I’ve already done a degree. I don’t want to do another. No.

[TRANSITION]: And become [00:15:30] a.

Payman Langroudi: Dentist, right? By now, you’d be like a four year qualified dentist.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, I get it.

Zara: All the time. Don’t you want to do dentistry? Don’t want [00:15:35] to do therapy? No, because I absolutely love the gums. [00:15:40]

[TRANSITION]: Oh, really?

Zara: Don’t care about teeth. If I could be a periodontist [00:15:45] without being a dentist, I’d do it. I love the gums. They’re the foundation that hold everything [00:15:50] together without the gums. You got nothing.

Payman Langroudi: Fair enough.

Zara: Um.

[TRANSITION]: So [00:15:55] then. Yeah, I went and studied hygiene. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And applied.

Zara: I applied, my mom [00:16:00] was like, you know, it’s really competitive.

[TRANSITION]: Super hard to get in. Yeah.

Zara: Really competitive. But especially in London. I miss the Queen Mary [00:16:05] deadline by one day. And then I applied to the Eastman. It was the only place that [00:16:10] I had applied to. And my mum said, yeah, it’s competitive. You might have to do dental nursing beforehand. [00:16:15] And I was like, oh my God, no. Um, and then I went there and then I remember [00:16:20] the interview day, there was a girl there, and she was like, I’ve been trying for seven years. I was like, oh my God, I’m not going to get this. Like, [00:16:25] I’m not. I wasn’t even a dental nurse. And so I got in [00:16:30] my first try, and it was me and another girl on the course and who weren’t dental [00:16:35] nurses. And then after that it was, well, it wasn’t all [00:16:40] easy. I remember the first mock exam that we had.

[TRANSITION]: It’s a difficult course.

Zara: Yeah, especially because [00:16:45] it’s shorter. Course. You get thrown in, you get thrown into clinic a lot quicker. Uh, seeing [00:16:50] patients sooner as well than, you know, doing dentistry. And I failed my [00:16:55] mock first year. And then that was a bit of a wake up call. [00:17:00] Like, I can’t actually keep doing the same thing I was doing at university. This is like, you know, real. It was [00:17:05] more of a pressurised course as well. So it was shorter, but it was pressurised. And, um, that was a [00:17:10] wake up call. After that, I really, really put my head down and then. Yeah, passed.

[TRANSITION]: And did you like. [00:17:15]

Payman Langroudi: When you were at the Eastman, did you feel the weight of being at the Eastman? I mean.

[TRANSITION]: Yes, there’s. [00:17:20]

Payman Langroudi: An atmosphere at.

[TRANSITION]: The Eastman.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, excellent. Sort of famous people, people who’ve written books [00:17:25] and things walking around.

Zara: Yeah, at the beginning, I didn’t know. I had.

[TRANSITION]: No idea.

Zara: And then I read it and I was [00:17:30] like, oh, this is like the rod of or like the Harvard of, you know, uh, dental school. [00:17:35] I was like, oh, wow. And I was like, oh, that’s nice. Yeah. But it was it was very pressurised. You know, it’s lectures [00:17:40] in the day clinic in the afternoon, and I was in the library until 10:00 pm at night, [00:17:45] um, you know, shorter holidays. And I think because of that, it felt like a [00:17:50] little bit like boarding school. It was that very old mentality, which I’m grateful [00:17:55] for. It got me to where I am today, but it was difficult.

Payman Langroudi: So which year was that? That you qualified? [00:18:00]

Zara: 2000? 18? 19? 19? Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Just before [00:18:05] Covid. Yeah. Um hum. Yeah.

Zara: Thank God, because I absolutely [00:18:10] hate online learning. I need to be in that lecture theatre. I don’t know how how everyone else [00:18:15] did it during Covid.

Payman Langroudi: Are you a bit ADHD?

Zara: I don’t know.

[TRANSITION]: Like [00:18:20] I’ve never been tested. I don’t mean that, but.

Payman Langroudi: You’re.

[TRANSITION]: Like attention span.

Zara: Yeah, I need to, you know, [00:18:25] in the classroom when, you know, the lecturers there got, you know, I need to be. It’s physical. [00:18:30] I can’t do it online.

Payman Langroudi: So I’m really interested. A lot of hygienists work in a lot of different [00:18:35] practices. And it’s kind of a weird thing because. Why? Why that why? I mean, if [00:18:40] you work in for five days a week in different practices, you could be working in one practice for. [00:18:45]

Zara: I actually did try that when I first qualified. I was full time, I think 4 or 5 days in one [00:18:50] place.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Zara: And I didn’t like it. It wasn’t for me.

Payman Langroudi: So you like the fact that you’re in different places?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, [00:18:55] I.

Zara: Do like it. I mean, it works for some people, which is great, but for me, I love the variety going to different [00:19:00] locations, different cohorts of patients. Um, that’s what works for me.

Payman Langroudi: All [00:19:05] right. So. So if you had to tot it up, how many practices have you worked [00:19:10] in in total around?

Zara: Um, I would probably say maybe [00:19:15] about seven, eight, maybe [00:19:20] nine, something like that over the years. Yeah, I was at five practices at once [00:19:25] in one at one time, but it was very, very difficult. And then I cut down to four [00:19:30] and I’ve cut down to three and just increased my days.

Payman Langroudi: So I’m super interested in this question of, [00:19:35] you know, you’ve seen the way that lots of different practices operate. And [00:19:40] Hygiene’s role is a funny one, because often they’re not even considered as member [00:19:45] of staff because they’re only in one day a week. They’re not. Like, for instance, do you get invited to a Christmas [00:19:50] party? Not always.

[TRANSITION]: No. Yeah, of course I do. Do you do we are.

Zara: We are the foundation [00:19:55] of the team.

[TRANSITION]: Well, that should be right. Yeah, it should be.

Payman Langroudi: But what I’m saying.

[TRANSITION]: Is, if. [00:20:00]

Payman Langroudi: You’re only there one day a week, you’re not part of the team in the same way as someone’s there full time. [00:20:05]

Zara: I think it’s changing because we are [00:20:10] we are heavily relied on in terms of patients oral health. If patients [00:20:15] got gum disease, if they’ve got gingivitis and bleeding, you can’t put the veneers on. They can’t have full [00:20:20] composite veneers they can’t like your hygiene needs to be good, otherwise the implant is going to fail. You [00:20:25] know the dentist is going to fail. All these things so it all interlinks. Hygiene is a huge, huge [00:20:30] aspect and it’s actually what you’re doing, you know. So I will offer to help or, you know, do this [00:20:35] or do that to you are part of the team. At the end of the day, even if you are going in once or twice [00:20:40] a week into that practice.

Payman Langroudi: All right. So for instance, right now you’re [00:20:45] at the health society. Yes. Victoria was just on diary of a CEO. [00:20:50]

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Um, that’s a different practice, right? That’s a very hygiene led practice.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, which [00:20:55] I love. It’s great. It’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant practice. It looks different. It feels.

[TRANSITION]: Different. It is different. [00:21:00]

Payman Langroudi: It is different that a practice. I’ve really enjoyed going there. Um, you’re at Thurlow Street?

[TRANSITION]: Yes, [00:21:05] which I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Good friends with them for years. They were one of my original enlightened users. Years and years and years [00:21:10] and years ago. Yeah. And then doctor. Mr.. She doesn’t like that. Drmr. [00:21:15] Yes. Marina.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Another totally different angle.

[TRANSITION]: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: He [00:21:20] sought high profile patients. Yes. So, of course you’ve been [00:21:25] in those, but you’ve been in the other 6 or 7 as well. What lessons have you learned from [00:21:30] the way people run their businesses? Yeah. And, you know, you’d imagine [00:21:35] from the outside you’d imagine a dental practice or a dental practice, but all of us who’ve worked in dental practices know that that’s [00:21:40] not the case. They’re very different to each other. And I haven’t worked in that many. I’ve worked in maybe [00:21:45] five in total before I started this. And I found the thing that was the worst [00:21:50] in a dental practice was when there’s two teams. There’s like power [00:21:55] bases, two different power bases working against each.

[TRANSITION]: Other within the same practice.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:22:00] Yeah. And I’m talking about amongst the staff. Yeah. You might have the manager and [00:22:05] three people and then, I don’t know, the lead nurse and four people in [00:22:10] two separate teams. Have you ever come across that? I have.

Zara: I haven’t, maybe [00:22:15] more so with staff like the. [00:22:20]

[TRANSITION]: But you’re not there long enough. You’re not there long.

Payman Langroudi: Enough to really see it.

Zara: I [00:22:25] saw it in the one practice that I was in full time.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, really?

Zara: Which I didn’t like. And that’s why [00:22:30] I decided it wasn’t for me. And so I much prefer going into, like, different places.

Payman Langroudi: Like, sometimes it’s [00:22:35] an incompetent manager.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like, that’s the reason why the head nurse [00:22:40] is on this other side, constantly talking about the incompetence and then the teams [00:22:45] break out into I’m sure people listening to this all have they can there’s echoes [00:22:50] of what’s going on in their own practices.

[TRANSITION]: I don’t think that it doesn’t happen in every practice. But it [00:22:55] does happen.

Zara: It does happen. And I now that you’ve mentioned it, yes, I [00:23:00] have experienced it, but it’s not. There shouldn’t be a hierarchy. Everyone is the same, but also that sort of like [00:23:05] ego coming into it. Or you know that I’m better there. It shouldn’t be like that at [00:23:10] all. The job is already stressful as it is. But you know, we don’t need to sit and talk [00:23:15] or gossip. We just want to get on with our job. Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But then you must have come across a [00:23:20] dentist who thinks they’re better than you and.

[TRANSITION]: Orders you around.

Payman Langroudi: Or. That must have happened, right?

Zara: Yeah, [00:23:25] it. Sadly, that is. It does happen. Um.

[TRANSITION]: And [00:23:30] the opposite.

Payman Langroudi: Right. The other, the very enlightened dentist who’s, like, totally sees you as as a as [00:23:35] an equal.

[TRANSITION]: As a. Yeah.

Zara: And you’re always going to be drawn to those people because there’s, they see [00:23:40] you at the same level. I always feel that you can learn something from everyone. I can learn from my dental [00:23:45] nurses. I can learn from my dentist, from a from a manager, from a TCO, whatever [00:23:50] it is, everyone can learn from each other. And I’m never I never get to that point where I’m like, okay, yeah, I know everything [00:23:55] now. You will constantly be learning through life.

[TRANSITION]: I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Where I learned the most about [00:24:00] a hygienist lot was there’s a group on Facebook. Mhm. I can’t remember [00:24:05] what it’s called now, but hygienist whatever. And some of the stories, some [00:24:10] of the stories about the way people are treated on those on that group, and I know what I mean. I get it, [00:24:15] it’s like a place where people come to vent, you know? But, you know, anytime, you know, there’s [00:24:20] this whole debate about women in dentistry, not enough lecturers or women and all that. And [00:24:25] I often think about, you know, the practices are full of women, right? Whether it’s managers, [00:24:30] nurses, hygienists, therapists that crowd often gets [00:24:35] a bad deal from from dentists.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And some of the things [00:24:40] I can’t remember now, but some of the things people say. So go.

[TRANSITION]: On.

Zara: I remember because [00:24:45] when I first qualified, that’s the first support network that I heard [00:24:50] of.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, really?

Zara: Yeah. So, um, I was part of it, and I could read the things that people [00:24:55] were saying, and it scared me. I just thought I’d. I’ve just qualified. [00:25:00] Of course I’m going to have questions. I feel like I can’t reach out. Um, I [00:25:05] did post a few times anonymously because of that reason. Because I was. Yeah, I was scared about [00:25:10] what people would say, even if I wasn’t in the wrong, or if I were just reaching out for advice. And I feel [00:25:15] like we’re all in the same boat. We should be helping each other. Why should there be a quick judgement [00:25:20] on other people who are asking a question? You don’t know the full story.

Payman Langroudi: Have [00:25:25] you ever had any sort of.

[TRANSITION]: I don’t go.

Zara: On there anymore?

Payman Langroudi: No. Have you ever [00:25:30] had ambitions of like sort of, I don’t know, BSD, you know, getting getting [00:25:35] involved?

Zara: Um, yes. But also I [00:25:40] think it just depends on what direction you want to go into. If you really want to go into sort of [00:25:45] teaching side of it, or if you want to go into a different direction, [00:25:50] I mean, having a lot. On being at five different practices. I didn’t really have the time. So now [00:25:55] that I kind of cut back, I can assess and I’m in a position to then like now be able to pick [00:26:00] and choose, you know, what other extracurriculars that I want to do.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, let’s get on to I [00:26:05] really want to get on to GPT T guided by a film [00:26:10] therapy. And because I’m going to be upfront to you about this here, I think M’s [00:26:15] are masterstroke, absolute masterstroke for coming out with this idea. [00:26:20] Yeah, that’s caught on so well. And to me, correct me [00:26:25] if I’m wrong, I feel like they’ve named something like they’ve given it a name [00:26:30] that was already happening. But then when I talk to people that people are really, [00:26:35] really evangelical about it, like people adore it, like people bang on about it. So [00:26:40] just just set it out for me, man. What is it?

Zara: So, um, I’m [00:26:45] an ambassador for GT, and the reason that I got into it is because [00:26:50] I basically tried it and loved it, [00:26:55] but.

[TRANSITION]: What is it?

Zara: So it’s a combination of warm water. Water is heated to 40 degrees [00:27:00] every time you go for your hygiene. Patients are like, oh, it was sensitive.

[TRANSITION]: Warm water comes out of the scaler.

Zara: Yeah, [00:27:05] it warms it up. Okay, now.

[TRANSITION]: You could.

Zara: Argue that. Oh, I’ll just pour warm water into the bottle. [00:27:10]

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Zara: It’s winter. You just wait five, ten minutes. By the time you’ve done medical history, [00:27:15] that water is going to be cold.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Zara: Um, erythritol powder. So it’s [00:27:20] a naturally occurring antimicrobial powder. You can use it on veneers. It doesn’t.

[TRANSITION]: Scratch. Also comes [00:27:25] out of the skin.

Zara: Yeah, exactly. Um. The tongue, soft tissue. It doesn’t doesn’t harm anything [00:27:30] at all. Gets rid of all of that biofilm, the harmful bacteria and air. So it’s like an antimicrobial [00:27:35] spa for the mouth.

[TRANSITION]: But is.

Payman Langroudi: It is it does it also remove.

[TRANSITION]: Stain?

Zara: Yeah, it removes stain. [00:27:40] It removes the biofilm. It polishes all in one.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, okay.

Payman Langroudi: So so it’s basically. [00:27:45]

[TRANSITION]: Like a super.

Payman Langroudi: Duper scaler.

Zara: It’s it’s even better because that powder will [00:27:50] continue to work throughout the day so that patient’s oral hygiene is going to improve every time [00:27:55] they come back. It’s improved. When you’re doing the pocket chart, you can see it’s improved greatly. [00:28:00] Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: All right.

Payman Langroudi: So so okay that’s the machine. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: What else? Where’s [00:28:05] the guided part?

Zara: The guided part is from the disclosing the purple dye that we we placed on. So it’s [00:28:10] a purple vegetable dye. Yeah. And that’s the most important part for me because it’s an [00:28:15] extremely educational tool for that patient to see what’s going on in their mouth. If you don’t apply that, [00:28:20] you can’t.

[TRANSITION]: Disclose anyway, don’t you?

Zara: Yes, I have heard you can just disclose, but without that air flow, if you [00:28:25] are going to get the disclosing off with an ultrasonic scaler, you will be there for two [00:28:30] hours and it’s never going to get all of it. How are you going to take that off the gum? Use the ultrasonic scaler on the gum. [00:28:35] You can’t to then demonstrate to the patient that the biofilm covers everything, [00:28:40] even on the tongue. So you need that. And it’s also about that comfort. It’s [00:28:45] more of a comfortable treatment. It’s more gentle. It’s more efficient. Um, it’s what’s not to love. I [00:28:50] have really thought about cons, and I can’t think of any. You end up making the money back as a business [00:28:55] because word of mouth, you know, that’s the only treatment.

[TRANSITION]: Is it? Much more comfortable?

Zara: It’s way more comfortable. [00:29:00] The pressure is gentle. It’s not like the older airflow systems where it would splatter [00:29:05] all over your face, over your glasses. Just feel like you’re going through a car wash because it’s so [00:29:10] high pressured patients, you know, say, oh, I fell asleep in the chair. It was so [00:29:15] comfortable and never had this. They guaranteed to come back. What’s not to love yet?

Payman Langroudi: That in [00:29:20] itself, if you’re telling me, look, I’ve never used it, but if you’re telling me, come.

Zara: And see me and then you’ll.

[TRANSITION]: See. [00:29:25] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: If you’re telling me it’s more comfortable, that in itself is enough. Yeah, because hygiene is uncomfortable, [00:29:30] man.

Zara: The amount of patients that come to me like, oh, I’ve had such a bad hygiene experience, it was so [00:29:35] painful. Hygiene does not need to be painful. It should be gentle, thorough. It does [00:29:40] not need to be painful. One bad experience. It will put you off for life. You’re never going to come back [00:29:45] now. Do you want the patient to come back or not come back?

Payman Langroudi: But there’s another aspect to it though. Yeah, that like [00:29:50] in a way, if it’s not uncomfortable, you feel like you’re not getting deep enough. [00:29:55]

[TRANSITION]: Do you know what I mean? Yeah. You know what I mean.

Payman Langroudi: You want to you want to you want to get into Dental. You want to get [00:30:00] subgingival?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. You can’t get subgingival a bit.

Payman Langroudi: You know, like.

[TRANSITION]: If.

Payman Langroudi: Because if you’re going [00:30:05] to get subgingival.

Zara: So that’s just the airflow part of it. Yeah. Then there’s the person. So [00:30:10] it’s, um, the the way it works laterally, it’s not painful [00:30:15] at all. So it’s no pain scaler basically because of the technology [00:30:20] behind it. So you can remove the.

[TRANSITION]: Airflow.

Payman Langroudi: Incorporated in the scaler or is it.

[TRANSITION]: Two separate. It’s two. [00:30:25]

Zara: Separate. So you use the airflow first. So it’s more of a minimally invasive. Yeah. Um [00:30:30] way. So you use the airflow to remove the bacteria biofilm polish everything like that. And then the [00:30:35] scaler is just for any hardened bits of calculus, whereas before it was the opposite. You’d use a scaler everywhere and [00:30:40] then do the polishing, which still wouldn’t get rid of 100% of that biofilm the way [00:30:45] the GT protocol does. So that scaler will just get rid of any of the harder calculus. [00:30:50]

[TRANSITION]: And then are you.

Payman Langroudi: Selling that as an add on? [00:30:55] Like, I mean, when someone comes to one of these practices, do they all have.

[TRANSITION]: It, by the way?

Zara: They all have.

[TRANSITION]: It. All right, so when.

Payman Langroudi: Someone [00:31:00] comes to one of these practices, is there like a basic scale and an advanced and the advanced is the [00:31:05] is the guided biofilm therapy or is it standard.

[TRANSITION]: That’s the standard one.

Zara: No, that’s a standard. So I use it [00:31:10] in two of my practices. Um, and it’s, it’s standard because [00:31:15] once you give the patient a choice and then they see the fee difference, they’re [00:31:20] going to go for that thinking, okay, it’s fine, I’ll just go for that. But they don’t know the benefits that they’re going to get from the treatment, [00:31:25] the powder. How improve the gum health is going to be once they have that [00:31:30] they don’t go back. And I’ve had patients who would try it and they don’t go back to the old way.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:31:35] then but then how do you make your money? You increase the price of a scale and polish.

Zara: For the GT. [00:31:40] You increase it. Yeah, because it’s a more enhanced treatment.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. But that’s [00:31:45] what you do. You just say, yeah, it’s more expensive because.

Zara: No we don’t I don’t [00:31:50] call it scale and polish. It’s so much more than that.

[TRANSITION]: Sure.

Zara: Hate that word.

[TRANSITION]: Don’t use it.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [00:31:55]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Zara: Because we’re more because then, you know, the hygienist is just a cleaner. No. [00:32:00] You know, it’s so much more. You’re linking them out to the rest of the body. The link between gum disease [00:32:05] and systemic health, diabetes.

[TRANSITION]: And it’s nothing to do with GPT three.

Zara: It is. [00:32:10]

[TRANSITION]: Why?

Zara: Because with that, you’re removing that biofilm. That biofilm is that harmful bacteria [00:32:15] that’s leading to all these other systemic diseases.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But listen, man, you. [00:32:20]

[TRANSITION]: Still cannot get rid of.

Zara: 100% of that bacteria.

[TRANSITION]: Using just.

Zara: An ultrasonic scaler. I guarantee. [00:32:25]

[TRANSITION]: It.

Payman Langroudi: No ultrasonic and an air flow even with.

Zara: Yeah, but is that going to be comfortable [00:32:30] for the patient where it’s like, you know, hitting their gum, the gums bleeding, it’s going all over the [00:32:35] glass. It’s going all over the face. Going all over you. It just depends on [00:32:40] what kind of treatment you want to provide.

Payman Langroudi: I was a massive cynic when I first saw it. Massive. [00:32:45] And I just. I just take my hat off to that. I was thinking wonderful marketing and but [00:32:50] I have to say, every single person I’ve asked who uses it adores it, Like loves it. [00:32:55] And so that’s a good sign.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, because it.

Payman Langroudi: Pretty much says it all.

[TRANSITION]: It’s bloody.

Zara: Brilliant. [00:33:00]

Payman Langroudi: How much does it cost?

Zara: The machine or the treatment machine? Um, [00:33:05] the machine I think is about around ten K. I want to say [00:33:10] something like that, but you would be surprised how quickly.

[TRANSITION]: You make that money off to them. [00:33:15]

Payman Langroudi: Well done.

[TRANSITION]: Ten k, let me.

Zara: Tell you this. I’ve managed to get, I [00:33:20] think, over the time span that I’ve been working, I think I’ve gotten six [00:33:25] of my practices to get the machine and they love it. At the beginning [00:33:30] it was like, oh, you know, it’s really expensive, blah blah, blah blah. But when they see how [00:33:35] increased revenue that that machine brings and you’re going to be using that on every [00:33:40] single patient, every single patient is then going to go and tell their family and friends that, oh, I want this new treatment, the biofilm, [00:33:45] go to biofilm therapy. You’re going to make that money up easy.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, look, I [00:33:50] remember I’ve never owned a practice, but in practice that I’ve worked people, [00:33:55] um. Interviewing hygienists. And I remember thinking, I used to. I [00:34:00] used to ask to. Be in those interviews. And I remember thinking when they’re doing the interview. [00:34:05] I remember thinking, none of this matters. It’s how. It’s how they actually do the. Work that matters both [00:34:10] in terms of, you know, are they thorough enough and. Are they gentle enough? And I used to always worry [00:34:15] about that, that tension between. Being thorough enough and gentle enough. Because to me, [00:34:20] if you’re thorough. Enough. You’re not that gentle. You have to go a bit deep. Now, if the machine and the training. [00:34:25] Addresses that problem. If it does, yeah, because I don’t know, you might [00:34:30] be super. Super gentle hygienist anyway. Yeah. And the next person is going to hurt the person with. The [00:34:35] you know GPT as well. Yeah. But if it does then it’s well worth it because you [00:34:40] know. The number of mistakes people make in hiring a hygienist. And then patients come in and say. Oh, we all loved [00:34:45] the other one. And this one’s not not gentle. And you know that ten grand is. Well worth paying [00:34:50] the money for you. Yeah, he concludes the advert for EMS.

[TRANSITION]: You need [00:34:55] both. You need.

Zara: Both of those.

[TRANSITION]: Things. Yeah.

Zara: Gentle and technique.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me [00:35:00] about. You know, you were saying. And you’re right. The hygiene department gets involved in every [00:35:05] single other department of a practice. Insomuch as if I’m putting implants in, everything [00:35:10] needs to be tipped off. Um. With implants. Are you treating much peri [00:35:15] implantitis?

Zara: Yes. Um, obviously, once you’ve got bleeding [00:35:20] around the implant, then the percentage of it failing is a lot higher. And [00:35:25] so it’s so, so important. Again, that’s where the guided biofilm therapy comes into action, because I can [00:35:30] really get up there, um, with the instruments, with my airflow and then remove all of that harmful bacteria. [00:35:35] And nowadays, I mean, you know, who doesn’t have implants? It’s a very common dental [00:35:40] treatment. And the patient needs to be dentally fit, need to have good bone level, [00:35:45] um, before they end up having the implant. And then after that implant, like the Ferrari of [00:35:50] teeth, they need more maintenance. You know, you can’t just be coming in every 6 to 9 months. [00:35:55]

Payman Langroudi: So what is the difference between treating pre implantitis and periodontitis? [00:36:00] Like are they different.

[TRANSITION]: Instruments that use.

Payman Langroudi: Different plastic instruments.

Zara: No [00:36:05] I’m not a fan of the plastic ones. But also their home care is really important. So what they’re getting up around [00:36:10] those areas. Um the single tufted brush super important for them to [00:36:15] use. If there is bleeding, you know, I’ll ask them to put some ginger gel on there and then work that [00:36:20] that gel into into the gum margin. Um, so it’s a combination of their home care and [00:36:25] then the hygiene appointment as well.

Payman Langroudi: Enough.

Payman Langroudi: For [00:36:30] hygiene. I noticed you went to Iran recently.

Zara: Yeah I [00:36:35] did.

Payman Langroudi: And I noticed you going around seeing all the sites.

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Had you not [00:36:40] done that before? Is it a new.

[TRANSITION]: Thing for you?

Zara: Yeah, it is a new thing. I usually would just go [00:36:45] back to Tehran, which is the capital. My family lived there originally. My both [00:36:50] my mom and dad are from Tabriz, the north of Iran, but that’s where we would just go to to [00:36:55] the capital. But this time I actually got to go to different areas. My uncle lives in Bandarabbas, [00:37:00] which is the south. Um, and it when I was posting photos, everyone [00:37:05] was like, oh, are you in Mexico? I was like, no, I’m in Iran. And it’s just they don’t know what it looks [00:37:10] like. Um, this year I also went to Esfahan as well. Um, so many world [00:37:15] Unesco heritage sites. There’s so much history and culture. Um, and that [00:37:20] side of things is never shown on the media. It’s always a negative news. And people [00:37:25] think of Iran and they think of just, I don’t know, an Arab country in the Middle East. And it’s not we don’t speak [00:37:30] the same language. Um, Iran is the oldest country in the world, and I’m passionate [00:37:35] about it. So I like to show that and showcase it because the Western media [00:37:40] isn’t doing it. And whenever I do, I always get messages like, wow, it looks amazing. I really want to go [00:37:45] and it’s a very positive thing. We’ve got great food, really hospitable people, [00:37:50] uh, all full seasons. Just it’s anyone who’s [00:37:55] been there is like, I loved it.

[TRANSITION]: But do you.

Payman Langroudi: Feel Iranian?

Zara: I do.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:38:00] Do you feel British? Yes.

Zara: Even though I was born and raised here, I never say [00:38:05] I’m English. I always say I’m Iranian. I am British citizen, but ethnically, [00:38:10] I’m Iranian. I never get cold. Called a British, an English rose. [00:38:15]

[TRANSITION]: I get everything else except English rose.

Zara: I’m not blue eyed and [00:38:20] blonde and that’s fine.

Payman Langroudi: I think living in London, you sort of end up keeping [00:38:25] your identity a little bit. But I’ve got cousins in America.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Who within [00:38:30] months they’re USA, you know, like some of the culture [00:38:35] there because maybe because the country is made up of immigrants, the culture, [00:38:40] their people assimilate like they they become it very quickly. [00:38:45] And yet you were born here and you’re saying I’m a proud Iranian?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Zara: I [00:38:50] think it’s just knowing that again, it’s what the media shows, which is negative. [00:38:55] And then so they might feel like they don’t want to be associated with that. Let’s [00:39:00] do the opposite. Oh, America. Freedom. It’s a better country. It’s not always the case. [00:39:05] Actually, Iran has a lot to offer, and it’s just maybe it’s concealed and it needs [00:39:10] to come out. Um, you know, they’ve always got tour guides. Whenever someone speaks to me about it, [00:39:15] I’m like, just get yourself on a tour. You need to take two weeks off. They’ll take you around. They’ll [00:39:20] book everything. You just need to show up. It. There’s so much. But it’s that mindset [00:39:25] of, do I just listen to what the media is showing? Or do I do my own research and find out what’s what [00:39:30] it’s actually like?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, no, but it’s interesting that you want to keep going back. [00:39:35] I mean, you could each of these holidays, you could go to Thailand. You could go to Australia.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, no, that’s. [00:39:40]

Zara: Still on the list. Payman.

[TRANSITION]: I promise you, it’s still on the list.

Zara: Just need to find the time.

[TRANSITION]: But, you [00:39:45] know.

Payman Langroudi: It’s drawing you back, right? Yeah. And what would you say that is? Is that because [00:39:50] of friends and family, or is it there’s something in you that trying to get back to your roots or something?

Zara: Um, [00:39:55] I think I just love exploring. I love travelling and seeing different [00:40:00] parts, especially from places where I am from. I feel like I want to learn more. And, [00:40:05] uh, this time around, we basically went with a group of friends who [00:40:10] knew the area. Obviously they’re from there. And so they took us around and explained [00:40:15] everything. And it’s nice to find, you know, depending on where someone is from, then they can show you around. [00:40:20] It’s like if someone came to London, I know I live here, I was born here, I can take them around. Um, but [00:40:25] at the same time, I still think seeing and exploring other countries is still as important. [00:40:30] That life experience of travelling. You learn so much whether you go with a group, whether you [00:40:35] go with a partner, whether you go solo, um, you learn so much and it’s so important because [00:40:40] it’s just like if you don’t within your means, obviously, you know, you don’t need to be going to Mauritius [00:40:45] every month. It’s like a reading one page of a book. [00:40:50]

[TRANSITION]: You go solo sometimes I.

Zara: Do, yeah. And I think, yeah, I’m not I’m [00:40:55] not someone who’s scared or frightened of doing things on my own. I don’t let it stop me. There [00:41:00] is always a little bit of anxiety beforehand, but I’m like, it’s okay, it’s going to be fine. You’ve done [00:41:05] this a hundred times. You like, I’ll take a book. I’ll see whatever. Like other social activities that are going [00:41:10] on. I’m. Yeah, I think it’s really important to be okay to be on your own.

Payman Langroudi: I love being by myself. Do [00:41:15] you ever go to a restaurant by.

[TRANSITION]: Yourself.

Zara: In London? Not so much. But when I’m abroad and I’m travelling [00:41:20] on my own, then.

[TRANSITION]: Yes, but why.

Payman Langroudi: Not in London?

Zara: I don’t know, because there’s always people. So you’ll be like, oh, [00:41:25] you know, you call up your friends, you’ll be like, oh, do you want to go for dinner? Do you want to do this? And it’s more of a social thing to catch [00:41:30] up with people.

Payman Langroudi: No, but you’ve got no anxiety about it.

Zara: Um, [00:41:35] no, actually, I have had lunch on my own a few times, just like in a restaurant.

[TRANSITION]: But no. [00:41:40]

Zara: I haven’t. No.

[TRANSITION]: Let’s go through that anxiety.

Payman Langroudi: Why is there anxiety around that?

[TRANSITION]: Do you know why? [00:41:45]

Zara: I think it’s just being on your own. And that’s why people the first thing they pick up is their phone. [00:41:50]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. And like, you know, when.

Zara: You’re on your own, you’re just checking that. But sometimes that’s why [00:41:55] I’ll take a book just to be okay with not having to feel like.

[TRANSITION]: I need to check.

Payman Langroudi: I need [00:42:00] the headphones. Yeah. For instance, if I go by myself. Yeah, but but you know, this question [00:42:05] of being, I don’t know, single or someone said to me, yeah, I [00:42:10] feel like people are looking at me and thinking she’s been stood up.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Which [00:42:15] is a weird story to make up. Like it could be a hundred things. Right. But to make up that story about [00:42:20] what people are thinking about you or. She’s single. Yeah. But then [00:42:25] I talk to lots of young people these days who want to be single. [00:42:30] Like, it’s almost the most common thing that people say to me. Say, are you with No, [00:42:35] no. I’m single. Like. Like actually choose to be single. Not. Not years ago. Yeah. Years ago. [00:42:40] No one would choose to be single. It would be like a like a had to be ended up single. [00:42:45]

Zara: Yeah. I think we’re also coming into a [00:42:50] time where it’s important to know who you are yourself, what you want from life, [00:42:55] what you want from a partner and not actually settling. So you don’t need to settle. There [00:43:00] isn’t this we’re also moving away from, you know, there’s a time you need to do this. You need to do this. You can’t put [00:43:05] that pressure on yourself because then if it ends up not being right for you, it’s only going to [00:43:10] show up six months later. So why not wait for something that actually feels right?

Payman Langroudi: Okay, [00:43:15] but what I’m also hearing from those people [00:43:20] that girls who say they want to be single is when they do want to have kids, they find it hard to find someone. [00:43:25]

Zara: I mean, it really just does.

Payman Langroudi: This resonate, you know?

Zara: Is it [00:43:30] what resonates, resonate?

Payman Langroudi: Is it I’m not talking about with you.

[TRANSITION]: But.

Payman Langroudi: Like with the. With the generation.

Zara: Generation I [00:43:35] think. Yeah. Because, I mean, people are having kids. A lot later nowadays, a [00:43:40] lot more women are freezing their eggs. Yeah. Um, and, you know, so you’re thinking about the future, but you’re [00:43:45] by doing that, you’re just taking the pressure off, which I think is the right thing to do because [00:43:50] there’s no point in getting involved. And then having thinking that having a child is going to help my relationship or [00:43:55] mend the relationship, because it will not the opposite. Quite the opposite, absolutely. And then [00:44:00] it’s just going to be a negative environment for that child as well. Why would you want to do that.

Payman Langroudi: And I think, [00:44:05] you know, there’s that look, you’re an independent, financially independent person now you’re I’m sure, [00:44:10] right. Um, years ago that wasn’t the case, right? The woman would be reliant [00:44:15] on the man for for finance. And then that would push you straight into that. Get [00:44:20] married quickly.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, as as these lines are redrawn, [00:44:25] um, you often come across a hygienist or a dentist who’s, like, the [00:44:30] primary earner in a family. How do you feel about that? I mean, have you got [00:44:35] like. Like what? Traditional values in as much as you want to be [00:44:40] looked after a little bit, but how do you feel about that?

Zara: I think it’s [00:44:45] extremely important for women to have their own stream of income. It [00:44:50] doesn’t need.

[TRANSITION]: They’re never trapped.

Payman Langroudi: In a situation.

Zara: Exactly. So that you’re independent. If anything [00:44:55] were to go wrong, you know that you can stand on your own two feet. Yeah. It’s extremely important for a woman to be financially [00:45:00] independent at the same time. To be with a partner [00:45:05] who’s also earning is equally as important. I’m not saying that you need to have a CEO job [00:45:10] as a woman can just be like a basic job, but you’ve got your own stream of income, so therefore you [00:45:15] are independent. Now, of course, I love I love what I do [00:45:20] and being financially independent, is it also important for me that I’m with someone [00:45:25] that is also financially independent and works and [00:45:30] earns. Of course it is. Of course I like to be looked after. I do consider myself as like I’m very [00:45:35] pro-women. Women’s rights, feminism and all of that. But also from my background [00:45:40] and seeing how, you know, certain things were taken care [00:45:45] of, the man would look after, you know, from even my family and seeing that growing up, [00:45:50] of course I like it. It’s nice to have someone, you know, who’s going to open the door for you or.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, [00:45:55] but not everywhere.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like, you know, if you take it to its conclusion. Yeah. Like [00:46:00] I did a lot of work in Holland. My, my biggest customer was in Holland. [00:46:05] And in Holland, men don’t hold doors for women at all. [00:46:10] And if they did, the women get pissed off. Yeah. Like there’s there’s a whole thing, man. Like [00:46:15] they are 100% equal, you know, like they don’t pay for dinner. Yeah. [00:46:20] They don’t. And so it’s an interesting question, you know, like, is that the, the final place [00:46:25] we’re going or, or is their traditional roles like you do want the door open for [00:46:30] you? You do want nice things bought for you or whatever.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, it’s an interesting point.

[TRANSITION]: I think. [00:46:35]

Zara: It’s personal. For me personally, I would say yes. At the same time, being [00:46:40] told as a woman, oh, I can’t do this or you can’t do that. I’m just like, no challenge accepted. I’m [00:46:45] going to do it. I’m going to show you. I’m going to do it.

Payman Langroudi: Is that your character? If someone says you can’t do something.

[TRANSITION]: That’s that’s.

Zara: Just [00:46:50] me. Just because I’ve been raised in.

[TRANSITION]: Well, you know.

Zara: What I’ve just been raised seeing especially, [00:46:55] um, seeing my mum going through a lot of difficulty and [00:47:00] coming out the other end and still striving. That’s where my sense [00:47:05] of, yeah, I’m a woman. I can do it. Yeah. Determination that [00:47:10] and Disney films.

[TRANSITION]: Are you into them?

Zara: Well, as a child [00:47:15] you watch Disney films don’t you. So you’re always like, okay, you know, you come out [00:47:20] the other end. But I think maybe the more traditional roles With [00:47:25] even the British cultures like that. Very polite and very, you know. Oh, I’ll [00:47:30] take you out for dinner or I’ll walk on the side of the road that the cars are going down all these things, [00:47:35] which is nice. I like it at the same time. I’m. I still want to [00:47:40] be financially independent. Why can’t, why can’t I have both?

Payman Langroudi: You can. You can do what you like. [00:47:45] Yeah, but you’re a fascinating sort of contrast of all these different things, you know, like East and West. [00:47:50] Yeah. And, and and it’s refreshing. It’s a refreshing thing.

Zara: I like to bring them [00:47:55] together. Not that I’m just this or I’m just that, you know, why can’t I be a [00:48:00] multiple kind of things?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You can. Let’s get back to [00:48:05] the darker part of the pod. We like to talk about mistakes. [00:48:10]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Clinical errors, specifically clinical errors. Because, you know, [00:48:15] from black box.

[TRANSITION]: Thinking.

Payman Langroudi: Where, you know, when a plane crashes, they [00:48:20] get the black box. They look at what happened? They figure out exactly what [00:48:25] happened without blame, and then they distribute that information [00:48:30] to the whole pilot community so that no one else makes that same mistake. But [00:48:35] in medical we like blame. Mhm. And so when something goes wrong we [00:48:40] kind of don’t like to talk about it or we’re ashamed of talking about it. And hence [00:48:45] we end up not learning from everyone’s mistakes. I mean, wouldn’t it be interesting that if right now, today, [00:48:50] all the mistakes that happened in practice get published and we could all read them without any [00:48:55] sort of blame being attributed, and just learn the mistakes. Learn from those mistakes. [00:49:00]

[TRANSITION]: I think you get.

Zara: A the next generation of dentists or dental health professionals.

[TRANSITION]: That are way.

Zara: Better. [00:49:05] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So, so in in with that in mind.

[TRANSITION]: What do you think? What what. [00:49:10]

Payman Langroudi: Comes to mind when I say clinical.

[TRANSITION]: Errors? A quickly.

Zara: Now that you mentioned that, I [00:49:15] think being in an industry where it’s supportive and people aren’t scared, especially [00:49:20] within your team, like there shouldn’t be any judgement or, you know, things like that. There is. There’s still that fear. And that’s why [00:49:25] people hide and they don’t talk about it. I think that’s what needs to change fundamentally. Um, [00:49:30] there was a case, uh, it was I think it was like the second practice [00:49:35] that I had worked out. So it was quite fresh. And a patient came in. She had diabetes. [00:49:40] She had BP’s of for advanced [00:49:45] gum disease. Perio. And she hadn’t been to the dentist in like five years. [00:49:50] So I took a look, did a gum examination, and then I told her, I said, listen, I’m going to [00:49:55] do my best for you, but I may need you to come back because there’s just so much that needs to be done. [00:50:00] We really need to strip it back. And she understood in the room, thankfully. Thankfully, I [00:50:05] had a nurse in the room that was working alongside me, which you know, is important because [00:50:10] she was there as a witness in terms of medico legal reasons. And she was also [00:50:15] she wasn’t a very big sort of influencer, but she said that I am doing [00:50:20] YouTube videos. Would you mind if I interviewed you, or if you spoke a little bit about the [00:50:25] link between gum disease and diabetes? And I said, yeah, sure I will. Um, so we did that [00:50:30] and then I went home. Uh, finished. Finished the day and [00:50:35] then got a text or an email from the manager at the time saying [00:50:40] that patients complained she’s not happy. Why is only half of my hygiene bin done? And [00:50:45] I said.

[TRANSITION]: Because you’re going.

Payman Langroudi: To come back for the.

[TRANSITION]: Second. Yeah, I did explain.

Zara: You had so much going on. [00:50:50] You’ve got Perrier, your gums are bleeding, you’ve got diabetes. There’s only so much that I can do in one [00:50:55] visit. I did explain that to her. Um, I feel like it could have been handled [00:51:00] a better way. I was then told to. You know, you have to deal with this situation. [00:51:05] You have to offer them a free hygiene so that they don’t write a bad review [00:51:10] or whatever it is. And that’s when your team really need to be there for you, [00:51:15] because you are part of a team. And so you’re you always need to have each other’s backs.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm. [00:51:20]

Zara: Um and obviously it was the first time anything like that had happened. [00:51:25] I felt really scared. I was like, oh my God, what if this goes into like GDC and you know [00:51:30] called my indemnity. And it just it was called.

Payman Langroudi: Your indemnity.

Zara: Blown out of. Yeah. Because I didn’t know what to do. [00:51:35]

[TRANSITION]: I wasn’t given any advice.

Zara: But also I wasn’t in the wrong. [00:51:40] So for me to give a free hygiene, which wasn’t the point. But by me doing that, it’s [00:51:45] the principle of the matter saying that you’re right, and I was in the wrong where I did.

[TRANSITION]: I wasn’t [00:51:50] in the.

Payman Langroudi: Were in the wrong. You were in the wrong because you didn’t communicate properly.

Zara: No, I did communicate. And I had my nurse.

[TRANSITION]: And I [00:51:55] told, did.

Payman Langroudi: She get the message? If you communicated.

[TRANSITION]: Because you get patients.

Zara: Like this that just want a free hygiene and they want to complain [00:52:00] about it.

[TRANSITION]: You do you all the time.

Zara: Payman all.

[TRANSITION]: The time. Of course.

Payman Langroudi: They exist.

Zara: 100%. [00:52:05]

[TRANSITION]: I still get it nowadays. But then listen, listen, listen.

Payman Langroudi: This is an important point. I talk to my team about this all [00:52:10] the time. Right? Enlightened has a B1 guarantee. Yeah. What does that mean? You can contact [00:52:15] us and say, I’m going to be one. Yeah. And we have to give you more. More gel. Yeah. Once [00:52:20] in a while. Believe it or not, some people try and use that system to get more [00:52:25] gel. Yeah. Now, I don’t like it. [00:52:30] It doesn’t make me happy that that happens. Yeah, but what makes [00:52:35] me particularly unhappy? Yeah. Is if someone like you. Yeah. Someone big, enlightened user. [00:52:40] Where it doesn’t always work. If something happens and it doesn’t work. Contacts my team and [00:52:45] says it didn’t work. Send me more gel and my team. Don’t take [00:52:50] that at face value because they’re busy looking for abuse of the system. [00:52:55] Yeah. And my point to my team is I’m happy to get abused a [00:53:00] little bit so that when Zahra calls, who’s a good [00:53:05] user, who’s an honest person, you treat that thing as an honest person and a good [00:53:10] user. So. So my point is, even if this woman was was going for a free hygiene [00:53:15] school for a few of them to slip through the net as long as what if she [00:53:20] wasn’t? What if she actually didn’t hear? You didn’t actually didn’t understand, you know, like that’s the [00:53:25] one if you if you actually didn’t understand.

[TRANSITION]: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And now now you’re kind of being accused of going [00:53:30] for a free hygiene.

[TRANSITION]: But that wasn’t the case.

Zara: This wasn’t the case because I.

[TRANSITION]: You know.

Zara: The number [00:53:35] of times I said in the appointment, like I, you know, and then at the end, I informed [00:53:40] her, I said, look, I’ve done this section, you know, I haven’t done the inside. We’re going to go through this.

[TRANSITION]: What happens? [00:53:45] What I told her so many times.

Zara: So I don’t actually agree with that. The reason is because then patients feel [00:53:50] like they can just keep doing that. And also when you lose. No, because when you lose that [00:53:55] trust between clinician and patient, that’s it. I can’t treat you. I go see another [00:54:00] hygiene. I would rather you see another hygienist. I don’t want to see you because we’ve lost that trust.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:54:05] know, but just if you if you default into they’re always right.

[TRANSITION]: But they’re.

Zara: Not always right.

[TRANSITION]: But you just. [00:54:10]

Payman Langroudi: Default into they are.

[TRANSITION]: Always right.

Zara: Yeah, but.

[TRANSITION]: Anyway.

Payman Langroudi: What happened?

Zara: So basically [00:54:15] it was they wrote they wrote an email, blah, blah blah. Um, because [00:54:20] they just basically wanted to squash it. Um, it was my first experience [00:54:25] and, um, I ended up seeing her again for free. Yes. [00:54:30] And even though that wasn’t the that wasn’t the issue. The the issue was that they kept [00:54:35] just pushing me and telling me that. Just do it. Just do it for free. And then, you know, she. Okay.

[TRANSITION]: So you found. So I [00:54:40] did it. You found it.

Payman Langroudi: Upsetting that they didn’t have your back. That I.

[TRANSITION]: Didn’t have. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s that’s an important point.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Zara: Especially [00:54:45] when you’re first starting out. Yeah. Um, I did it, and [00:54:50] then that was it. And I said, going forward, please don’t book her with me. Please book her with another hygienist. [00:54:55] The patient never, ever returned back to the practice because you can tell she [00:55:00] just she’s she’s created this entire massive scene, and she just wanted the [00:55:05] free hygiene. And apparently when they checked on different reviews, she’d written, She’d written multiple [00:55:10] bad reviews, bad reviews for multiple practices. So you can see that this person [00:55:15] is just sort of wanting. Just.

Payman Langroudi: So where was the error?

Zara: The error was, I think [00:55:20] I would probably say the lack of the team having each other’s backs. [00:55:25] That was where the error was. Yeah. Um, which, you know, when since since then [00:55:30] you do get you can’t make everyone happy.

[TRANSITION]: But there are patients that story. [00:55:35]

Payman Langroudi: That was a nice story.

[TRANSITION]: But but when it happens now.

Zara: Yeah. Easily. You know, book them in with another [00:55:40] hygienist and the team. I’m so very grateful and lucky and really happy with the places that I work at [00:55:45] now. They’ll book them with another hygienist.

Payman Langroudi: That was a nice story, but I’m not accepting it.

[TRANSITION]: Why?

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:55:50] I’m looking for your biggest clinical error. That wasn’t it.

Zara: Um. [00:55:55] My clinical error. Um.

[TRANSITION]: You must.

Payman Langroudi: There [00:56:00] must be. Even if it was, like, a drop or something.

[TRANSITION]: I did actually numb up.

Zara: I did numb up the wrong side [00:56:05] when I was doing perio.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, good. Good.

Zara: And, uh, again, this was like, at the beginning. [00:56:10] When did you.

Payman Langroudi: Notice? When did you notice?

Zara: When I’d finished numbing her.

[TRANSITION]: So I had to numb the way [00:56:15] straight away.

Zara: Straight away after I’d done. Because I was doing the half the mouth.

[TRANSITION]: I’ve done that. Yeah. [00:56:20] And so. And so. What did you say?

Zara: So I basically said [00:56:25] that I’m going to go over this bit again, which I did, and then also did the other side. [00:56:30]

[TRANSITION]: All right.

Zara: But um, after making that mistake [00:56:35] once and I was a bit worried because, you know, I was like, I’m giving her more when she doesn’t need [00:56:40] it.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Zara: Um, you make those mistakes once and then, you know, [00:56:45] it doesn’t. You try.

[TRANSITION]: It doesn’t happen again.

Payman Langroudi: With that man. That’s still not a very big incident.

Zara: I mean, thankfully, [00:56:50] nothing happened.

[TRANSITION]: What about your most difficult patient?

Payman Langroudi: Was that this one? The first one?

Zara: Uh, she [00:56:55] was difficult. I also had a different scenario, which was a bit similar. Um, and [00:57:00] it was a guy who basically said the same thing. He hadn’t been in ages, and I was like, look, I’m. [00:57:05] I can only do what I can do for you in one appointment and basically went downstairs and complained [00:57:10] to reception. Why did she give fluoride when she hadn’t even finished the treatment? [00:57:15] Even though the areas where I applied the fluoride, I completed the hygiene there. [00:57:20] But he said that she wasted time applying fluoride. How long does it take to apply fluoride?

[TRANSITION]: Five [00:57:25] seconds.

Zara: Exactly a minute. But he made a huge a big thing. And he also just wanted free treatment. [00:57:30] And they booked her. And I said, book him in with another hygienist.

Payman Langroudi: But maybe it’s been a short career and [00:57:35] you haven’t got many bad situations, but these these ones just aren’t resonating for me. I mean.

[TRANSITION]: You [00:57:40] end up making more of a mistake. Did you never.

Payman Langroudi: Ever, like, I don’t know, dislodge a restoration. And then the [00:57:45] patient got pissed off with that or.

[TRANSITION]: No.

Zara: Well, no. Luckily.

[TRANSITION]: Cut someone’s.

Payman Langroudi: Lip.

[TRANSITION]: Smacking. [00:57:50] No. There was.

Zara: There was a composite filling that did fall out that came out, but. [00:57:55]

[TRANSITION]: It was calm.

Zara: No, I did tell the patient straight.

[TRANSITION]: Away, but he was calm. It was.

Zara: Yeah, he was very [00:58:00] calm. It was a very lovely patient, actually. And the dentist also just [00:58:05] I was like, look, you’re in the best place right now. We can get this fixed. The dentist can fix it for you and dentist [00:58:10] placed it back in. So maybe you just interview me.

[TRANSITION]: For the best career. [00:58:15]

Zara: No. Well, no. Do you know what?

[TRANSITION]: No mistake. Patients.

Zara: You always get some [00:58:20] patients that aren’t nice. You can’t make everyone happy. But I have been blessed to have really lovely patients. [00:58:25] Yeah, I think where the problem lies is the industry itself.

Payman Langroudi: Go [00:58:30] on then. Yeah.

Zara: In terms of just not having each other’s backs, like we shouldn’t always [00:58:35] be so defensive or like, you know, oh, it’s the patient. Or sometimes even using the patient [00:58:40] instead of actually dealing with the problem within the team. Uh, blaming [00:58:45] it like, oh, because of the patient. Because of the patient.

[TRANSITION]: You like using.

Payman Langroudi: The patient as cover?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever you or your [00:58:50] agenda is.

Zara: Yeah, yeah.

[TRANSITION]: No, we.

Payman Langroudi: Get this all the time in massive arguments, and it tends [00:58:55] to be on Facebook. Yeah, massive arguments between dentists. And sometimes [00:59:00] it’s pretty nasty. It can get properly nasty and almost using the patient as [00:59:05] cover for that, right? But patient’s best interest is cover.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: For that argument.

Zara: And [00:59:10] I think once you have that like full backup from the team and you sit down and you sort and you [00:59:15] go through the the problem, how can we improve it so that it doesn’t happen again? Or if it happens, how [00:59:20] do we deal with it? That’s what’s important.

[TRANSITION]: All right.

Payman Langroudi: I’m still not [00:59:25] happy. I mean.

[TRANSITION]: You’re just not.

Zara: You’re just not going to be happy. What can I. You can’t please.

[TRANSITION]: Everyone.

Payman Langroudi: Biggest, [00:59:30] biggest mistake. Like career mistake. Like. Like. Do you actually regret not going [00:59:35] into acting?

Zara: Um, yeah. It’s something [00:59:40] that I do still have a passion for. But also, it’s not something that I can [00:59:45] go for a casting or audition now. And I’ve got full day patients. What do I do with [00:59:50] that? It’s not something that I can be like, oh yeah, I’m just going to do this on the side. You can’t. You either need to devote your time 100% [00:59:55] or you don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Do you insist on a nurse?

Zara: Um, [01:00:00] I do work with a nurse.

Payman Langroudi: Do you insist on it?

Zara: Yeah, I do. [01:00:05] Because the thing is that my quality of my work is not going to be the same. Working without a nurse. I’ve done both. [01:00:10] And the quality of my work is not going to be great. You can’t. How can you do a six point pocket chart [01:00:15] without a nurse? And the periodontist does the same thing and has a nurse? What’s the difference? I’m struggling [01:00:20] to to understand. I think also the patient as well, asking the patient to like hold the [01:00:25] suction. You’re going into private practice, you’re paying all this money. Then you get the patient to hold the suction. I [01:00:30] wouldn’t I wouldn’t feel right in that situation at all. Um, the [01:00:35] appointment runs better. Medicolegal reasons. Um, when [01:00:40] the nurse is cleaning up, doing the instruments, I can then be speaking to the patient, educating them. [01:00:45]

Payman Langroudi: That’s the one for me.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, that’s a key.

Zara: That’s where you build your rapport.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like, [01:00:50] look, if you measure the total time that you and the patient are talking to each other, it’s [01:00:55] a minute part of the appointment.

[TRANSITION]: Because I know I talk a lot.

Payman Langroudi: I’m sure most [01:01:00] of the appointment, the patients down there, you’re treating them right. So back to my [01:01:05] original thing about your time is best spent selling whitening. You know that someone [01:01:10] doing the cleanup means that that’s seven eight minutes less with the patient. [01:01:15]

[TRANSITION]: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Depending on cleanup. Right. The way. The way practices do it. Yeah, but, you know, it could [01:01:20] be anything up to. I mean, I’ve been I used to and then.

Zara: Your notes, you’ve got to you know, that’s when I.

[TRANSITION]: Do my notes as well. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um. [01:01:25]

[TRANSITION]: Although but.

Zara: I do think.

[TRANSITION]: I do come.

Payman Langroudi: Across principals who call that [01:01:30] a diva hygienist. Right.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. That’s not come across.

Payman Langroudi: I do come across principals.

[TRANSITION]: Who think I’ve heard.

Zara: It as well. [01:01:35]

Payman Langroudi: No, but but just on that basis. Right. If you insisting on an assistant. Yeah, you’re [01:01:40] a bit of a diva. Do you.

Zara: Know why? Because they’re so used to. Oh, it’s the hygienist that’s the cleaner. [01:01:45] Just shove them in the room. You know, one after another, just like a tractor [01:01:50] system. And that’s it. And if they want anything, if they’re going to ask for anything, then they’re known as a [01:01:55] diva. I think that we should be speaking up as hygienists to be able to do your job properly. You know, I need this [01:02:00] or I need that. Why is it okay for the dentist to do? Obviously within reason. You know, it’s [01:02:05] still running a business. I understand that, but at the same time, for me to then be able to [01:02:10] provide the best care possible for my patients and.

Payman Langroudi: To earn right and and to bring money into the practice. [01:02:15]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Zara: And that’s why my patients keep coming back. Because it’s that reports that level of [01:02:20] service. So at the end that’s going to only benefit the practice because [01:02:25] more patients are going to come. Oh that hygiene session was amazing. I’m going to get my husband to come [01:02:30] and see you win for the practice.

Payman Langroudi: So but amongst hygienists what’s the what’s [01:02:35] the sort of thinking on this.

[TRANSITION]: Is it that I think.

Payman Langroudi: All of them would want an assistant if they could get one? Uh, [01:02:40] or.

[TRANSITION]: Do some prefer not to have some.

Zara: Some, some hygienists do prefer to work without [01:02:45] a nurse, and that’s okay. I don’t know.

[TRANSITION]: Boss of.

Payman Langroudi: Their own domain sort of.

[TRANSITION]: Thing. You know, [01:02:50] I don’t know.

Zara: I’m I’m a very open book. You know, the nurse comes in, they can see what I’m doing. They [01:02:55] can see what I’m saying to the patient. And that’s all fine. I’ve got nothing to hide. It’s all out there. I don’t know, [01:03:00] I can’t answer that because I’ve. I don’t like, you know, to work on my own is not something [01:03:05] that I have done in the past, but it’s not my go to. I think the most important thing here is not whether [01:03:10] you want to. You should or you shouldn’t, given you should be given the opportunity. [01:03:15] They should ask, you know, you go for the interview. Do you like to work with the nurse? Do [01:03:20] you work with the nurse? And then so that’s the responsibility of the practice owner. And [01:03:25] then the responsibility of the hygienist is also to voice their opinion. Yes I do. And you say it [01:03:30] to them there and then or no I can work with that one. It just needs to be that [01:03:35] open communication.

[TRANSITION]: I mean.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t want to bring everything [01:03:40] down to money, right? But if if you think about the money, how much does [01:03:45] the nurse earn per hour?

Zara: I mean, I guess it ranges from [01:03:50] 1011 to. I mean, now that I don’t know. 15. [01:03:55] Yeah. Depending on.

[TRANSITION]: So I guess.

Payman Langroudi: Like, you could even frame it like this. You could frame it as [01:04:00] I’m paying the nurse, you know, like in a way.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:04:05] You know what I mean?

Payman Langroudi: Like, whatever your hourly rate is or I know you’re on a percentage, but but you know that [01:04:10] question.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That question. Maybe that’s why some people want to work alone. They want that £15 themselves. [01:04:15]

[TRANSITION]: No. Because.

Zara: No, don’t be putting that into the heads of dentists. Okay? We’re [01:04:20] not going down that road.

[TRANSITION]: Um, it’s.

Zara: A joint effort. [01:04:25] Even when my nurse is, like, running behind. Or I can see that we’re running late and [01:04:30] she’s, you know, busy, you know, I’m like, okay, go do your instruments. I’ll wipe down or, you know, she’s gone down to get [01:04:35] the patients. I don’t know, in the morning I’ll go down and get the patients in the aft. We help each other out, [01:04:40] and that’s what it really is. It’s about the whole team. And when you’re there for each other. So I don’t [01:04:45] see my nurse as less than.

[TRANSITION]: No.

Zara: And it shouldn’t be that way at all. We’re all equal, and we’re trying [01:04:50] to help each other just so that we can get through the day. And so the patients actually see, wow, this is a really great working [01:04:55] environment. But again, why is it okay for Periodontists to be working with [01:05:00] without. You would never find a periodontist that works alone, always with a nurse. Or [01:05:05] let’s just say this, a dentist who’s doing hygiene. Do you see a dentist doing hygiene without an assistant? [01:05:10] No, I’ve never seen it.

[TRANSITION]: I’ve done.

Payman Langroudi: It. I’ve done it. Um, but.

Zara: It’s not common. [01:05:15]

[TRANSITION]: But I don’t like to do it. Yeah? Yeah.

Zara: When you’ve got four handed, dentistry is gold [01:05:20] standard. Yeah. And it makes a huge difference. That’s what it comes down to.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:05:25] so I mean, what I’m interested in, what our hygiene is saying about this is [01:05:30] because you’d imagine eventually we’re going to get to a situation where it’s the standard. But [01:05:35] right now is it?

Zara: I mean, I can only.

Payman Langroudi: I guess you’re in private practices.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:05:40]

Zara: And I have worked in mixed practices before, and I had a nurse then. Um, but. [01:05:45]

Payman Langroudi: So is it the standard? I mean, if you go for another job, without asking for it. Do you reckon [01:05:50] a nurse is available on average or no? Are you are you.

[TRANSITION]: Where you.

Zara: Go? [01:05:55] It really depends on where you go, what kind of practice it is.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Zara: Um, I think it’s [01:06:00] more common now post Covid. Definitely. You know, working with airflow, definitely. [01:06:05] All these things. I think it’s changing and it should because otherwise you’re just you’re [01:06:10] without even saying anything. It’s just like, oh, the cleaner they can just do the job on their own. [01:06:15] And it’s not like that because it’s an isolating job as it is.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:06:20]

Zara: So you can’t be. It will it will crush you.

Payman Langroudi: As [01:06:25] a hygienist. Right. You must get a lot of toothpaste [01:06:30] manufacturers, mouthwash, all of that. They’re the biggest [01:06:35] companies in dentistry. I mean, we like to talk about Invisalign and all that, but but you know [01:06:40] Procter and Gamble, Colgate. These guys are gigantic, right?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, Do [01:06:45] you get asked by patients like what’s what’s the best toothpaste? Does that happen?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, all [01:06:50] the time. What do you say?

Zara: I mean, it’s very overwhelming as a patient because there’s so much out there. You [01:06:55] go into the supermarket and you’re like, oh my God, what do I choose?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. What do you.

Zara: Say? Most important thing for me is that it has fluoride [01:07:00] in it. If the anti-fluoride then at least hydroxyapatite if they [01:07:05] experience dry mouth. No SLS. It depends on what the patient’s got going on if they’ve got sensitivity. [01:07:10] So I would always tailor it to, to the patient needs. But obviously of course I’m going to [01:07:15] say it needs to have fluoride because that’s going to, you know, make the enamel strong and help protect against [01:07:20] tooth decay.

Payman Langroudi: Are you seeing more and more people being anti fluoride?

Zara: I think [01:07:25] there has been an increase because of the sort of holistic side of things, [01:07:30] and patients don’t want to be putting, I don’t know, chemicals into their body. Um, [01:07:35] so a little bit more now nowadays than before. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s a [01:07:40] massively growing area. Yeah. And I think the question needs to be answered, right? That, [01:07:45] you know, if I don’t want to put fluoride in my toothpaste, what is the best toothpaste? You’re like [01:07:50] what you said there about hydroxyapatite. Great, right? Um, because, you know, [01:07:55] like, I don’t know, maybe someone wants to have fluoride toothpaste every other day just [01:08:00] to halve their dose for whatever reason. Yeah. All right. What should I use on the other day? [01:08:05] Like, which is the right toothpaste? Right. And and so that I see that conversation. [01:08:10] People are asking me in dinner parties about fluoride these days. It’s like become a big, big, big question. [01:08:15]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And have you heard Trump is.

[TRANSITION]: The Trump is going to be.

Zara: Taking it. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: He’s going to be taking [01:08:20] it out of the water. Yeah. Yeah. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know how I feel, but I’m kind of calm [01:08:25] with no fluoride and water.

Zara: You know what I don’t? Yeah, I am. I also feel calm [01:08:30] about that as well, because as long as you’re using.

[TRANSITION]: Medication.

Payman Langroudi: Of the whole population, it’s a bit weird if.

Zara: You’re using [01:08:35] it in your toothpaste and it’s such a minute amount that it’s not actually going to damage the body. And if you think [01:08:40] about it, the majority of that you’re spitting out anyway? Yeah. So it’s just a very thin film [01:08:45] that’s covering the teeth. So it’s not in any way going to be [01:08:50] harmful for the body. It’s only going to help the enamel of the teeth. Um, as long as you’re using your toothpaste, [01:08:55] toothpaste, fluoridated toothpaste, then I don’t think we need fluoride in the water. But that’s [01:09:00] just my opinion.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got a thing I call the aha question. It’s [01:09:05] a weird one. It’s like. It’s a bit unfair as well, but it’s like, what’s what’s [01:09:10] your aha moment around perio? Like, you know, you say I love gums. [01:09:15] Yeah. When was the moment where you thought, oh I get it. Like there’s something [01:09:20] like a, there’s something I understand.

Zara: When they come for [01:09:25] the response to treatment. So I’ve done the non-surgical cryotherapy. [01:09:30] I’ve done that course. Leave them. Then they come back for their response to treatment appointment. And [01:09:35] I redo the six point pocket chart. And those numbers have come down and there’s no bleeding. [01:09:40] Yeah. And I’m honestly just seeing that when I’m doing [01:09:45] it, I’m like.

[TRANSITION]: Yes, it’s fulfilling. Worked.

Zara: The patient listened to me. They’re doing their home care. [01:09:50] They’re having their, like regular hygiene visits. The gum disease is stable because of that link [01:09:55] to the rest of the body as well. I’m just like, wow, we really are in a way, saving lives. [01:10:00] But in terms of gums, when I go through the chart with the patient and I compare the old chart with the new [01:10:05] chart and they can see for themselves, they’re like, wow. I’m like, yeah, don’t underestimate.

Payman Langroudi: It is [01:10:10] a funny thing though, because like on that visit, they might be like that because they’re in that part of [01:10:15] the cycle where, you know, the host response isn’t messing them up. And then three months later it [01:10:20] can be back to the old situation.

Zara: I’ll check it. I’ll check it in three months as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But when I say [01:10:25] aha, I don’t mean fulfilling. I mean when I’m where you figured it out somehow there was something [01:10:30] about it. There was a moment where you thought, oh, I’m really good at this. For this reason, I understand [01:10:35] it more now. What moment comes to mind when I say that. I [01:10:40] mean, for instance, you’re at a health society. Yeah. Yeah. Like over there. They’re doing what? That collagen breakdown.

[TRANSITION]: Measurement [01:10:45] microbiome before.

Payman Langroudi: And after treatment. I mean, that must be really interesting. [01:10:50] Tell me a bit about that.

Zara: It’s different. That’s why I like. Because it’s it’s different. It’s not like your sort of everyday generic, [01:10:55] um, hygiene work.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Zara: And seeing again the numbers, it always [01:11:00] comes down to the numbers because when the patient can see something, whether it’s in the mouth or whether it’s in numerical [01:11:05] value.

[TRANSITION]: It’s more tangible.

Zara: That’s exactly that’s what. And then they understand it and then they get it. [01:11:10]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Zara: And that’s just like I’ve done my job. It’s so satisfying [01:11:15] because I’m like, you understand now you’re improving. You’re doing your job. I’m doing my [01:11:20] job. And together mutually, we’re getting to general well-being, which is health. And [01:11:25] then when you achieve that, it’s about optimising it. So it’s not like, that’s it. My job’s done. [01:11:30] It’s about continuing it. Otherwise you’re going to relapse.

Payman Langroudi: What do you think of floss? [01:11:35]

[TRANSITION]: Love floss, but.

Payman Langroudi: It isn’t floss. A waste of time.

[TRANSITION]: No, it’s not a.

Zara: Waste of time. [01:11:40]

Payman Langroudi: Because, like you. Interdental brush. Right.

[TRANSITION]: I mean.

Zara: Okay, so the interdental brushes [01:11:45] are the gold standard, especially if you’ve got perio, if you’ve got big gaps for patients that have tighter [01:11:50] gaps and they can’t get those interdentals in.

[TRANSITION]: Then tiny ones.

Zara: They you [01:11:55] know what? Sometimes with the tiny ones, they go in and they’re heavy handed and they just bend. And once they bend, [01:12:00] there’s there’s no point. But it’s also about the technique of the floss. So if you’re going down slightly under [01:12:05] the gum, doing that C shape going up and down, you’re removing that plaque rather than just going in with the [01:12:10] floss and coming out. And that’s doing.

[TRANSITION]: Nothing. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But still, you know, like the reason why.

[TRANSITION]: I floss every night, [01:12:15] I.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t think floss does enough. I’m sure it does something. Yeah, but the [01:12:20] reason I’m saying it is like the like aha moment. Yeah, yeah. This was my aha moment [01:12:25] on floss. Yeah. That the root surface isn’t just conical. [01:12:30] Yeah. It’s conical and Undulating and in and out and. [01:12:35] Yeah. So that’s why you get plaque building up there. Because [01:12:40] it’s not just this perfect circle. Yeah. It’s rough and it’s a little bit, you know, there’s [01:12:45] sometimes it goes in and out. Yeah. So floss can’t get into those nooks and [01:12:50] crannies. Yeah. And it’s the nooks and crannies where you’ve got where there’s a problem. [01:12:55] Yeah. So for that reason, you know, like, okay, if I’ve got [01:13:00] this perfectly round teeth floss, but I’m not going to have any problems if I’ve got these perfectly round teeth. [01:13:05] It’s in the nooks and crannies where problems occur.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so that’s why I think incidental. [01:13:10]

[TRANSITION]: But in those I wouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Even for me, it’s a bit confusing for the patient to teach them [01:13:15] flossing properly, because that’s quite a job where the benefit of it is nowhere near as good as the benefit [01:13:20] of interdental brushing.

Zara: It depends. It always comes down to technique. There’s a technique when using your interdental [01:13:25] brushes. There’s technique when you’re using floss.

[TRANSITION]: I know, I know, but.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got this amount. You’ve got X amount of time to teach the patient. Yeah. [01:13:30] So I would say use that time on interdental brushes because there’s so much better.

[TRANSITION]: Than I think. [01:13:35]

Zara: Also a combination, depending on what they’ve got going on. A combination of the two, because then the interdental brushes [01:13:40] will get in between, and then the floss will get into the contact between the contact point. So [01:13:45] I they both have their own roles.

Payman Langroudi: But you know, I remember you don’t [01:13:50] remember this before your time. I remember when electric toothbrushes came out. Yeah. And for the first I’d [01:13:55] say 15 years of electric toothbrushes, all the periodontists [01:14:00] and all the hygienists were saying no, no, no, that they’re not good. Manual brush is just as [01:14:05] good and better than electric brush. And then at one point it just became it became obvious [01:14:10] the mountain of evidence came in. But but it was so obvious [01:14:15] from the beginning that they were better. Yeah, but there’s a legacy thing, you know, and I feel like [01:14:20] floss is a bit like that. There’s a legacy thing with floss. It’s like we’ve been saying it for such a long time that. [01:14:25] But I don’t know, man. If I was a hygienist, I wouldn’t spend the time because it takes time [01:14:30] to teach a person to floss, and I don’t think they ever really learned, do they?

[TRANSITION]: Do you know what?

Zara: Sometimes no. They [01:14:35] do some. You know, I’ll have patients that come in because I will. I’ll go through them. I’ll go. I’ll show them how to do the [01:14:40] technique in the mouth. And then if they come back and, you know, you’ve still got like high bleeding, high plaque [01:14:45] score, you know, you’re missing in between the teeth. Show me what you’re doing at home so I can check [01:14:50] to see if they’ve learned. And they’ve taken my advice.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the nuance, right?

Zara: Yeah. Once they show me, then [01:14:55] I’m like, okay, now remember, you know, the C shape under the gum. So it’s just that reinforcement. And you [01:15:00] know, you’re doing that. You’re seeing them more often than the dentist is seeing the patient. So you have the opportunity to really, [01:15:05] really educate and hone that in.

Payman Langroudi: I feel like, you know, a massive part of your job [01:15:10] is changing behaviour.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Like it’s gigantic part of your job.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:15:15] I’m not sure whether they teach you that or not like because behaviour change like it’s [01:15:20] so much more important.

[TRANSITION]: The hardest thing.

Payman Langroudi: No. It’s so much more important for the hygienist to learn how to change [01:15:25] someone’s behaviour than it is to know about the in-depth cytokine interleukin. [01:15:30] Yeah, I know you go quite deep into the side of it. The host [01:15:35] response. And yet this side of it. Yeah. How do you get someone to change their their behaviour. [01:15:40] I mean, you must have stories of patients where they’ve been resistant to change or patients [01:15:45] that you’ve unlocked them.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Well, um, what comes to mind?

Zara: So, [01:15:50] I mean, it’s really important just to always. I’ll ask with them. I’ll. [01:15:55] I’ll ask them and say, you know, we’ll go through this first just so that you’re happy with the technique. Um, and [01:16:00] some of the patients are fine with it. Happy with it. Sometimes you do get the patients that are like, not, you [01:16:05] know, I don’t want to do it. I’ve had patients that are like, no, I don’t floss and I’m not going to floss. I’ll come see you every three months [01:16:10] though. Yeah. Okay. You can’t make everyone happy. Fine. I’m not going to be killing myself. [01:16:15] And at the beginning, I did. I really did because I was like, it’s my job and I need to. I need to change their behaviour. [01:16:20] And, you know, I want them to get better and you cannot, you can’t. And the stress [01:16:25] and the pressure you’re putting on yourself. There’s only so much I can do as a human being. Um, [01:16:30] and then I’m like, fine. So he comes and sees me every three months.

Payman Langroudi: My, [01:16:35] you know, my personal bugbear about us as a profession is we haven’t got the message over [01:16:40] on Frequency of sugar. Yeah, we definitely got the message over on sugar. [01:16:45] Then we got the message over on brushing. Like, every like every. If we asked 100 people [01:16:50] out in the street, 99 of them would know. Brush your teeth. Don’t have sugar. But [01:16:55] what percentage of people of that 100 would know? Actually, it’s not the sugar, it’s the frequency. [01:17:00] A tiny.

Zara: And that’s what I spend on every single patient that comes and sees me in their first appointment. [01:17:05] I go through that. I go through the diet and I tell them it’s the frequency and not the amount.

[TRANSITION]: That [01:17:10] they’re having.

Zara: Because patients are like, okay, so then I can just, you know, have as much sugar [01:17:15] as I want, but if I keep it to a shorter amount of time, then it’s fine. And I’m like, yeah, it’s better for your [01:17:20] dental health, maybe not for your general health, which is also true.

Payman Langroudi: Even in your general health. You don’t want lots of peaks [01:17:25] of, like, sugar peaks. That’s what brings on diabetes.

Zara: So if you’re having sugar after your lunch or after [01:17:30] your dinner, then that’s already counted as one sugar acid attack, because then you’re not. It’s about the frequency. [01:17:35] And so I explain this to me and then they understand. They’re like, no one’s ever told me this. Now it makes.

[TRANSITION]: Sense. Yeah. [01:17:40]

Payman Langroudi: I think as a profession, we’ve failed on that. I mean, or maybe, I mean, I know it’s the same in marketing, right? [01:17:45] There’s only a certain number of messages you can get over. Yeah. I mean, if we do an ad, right? [01:17:50] I always focus on one thing. One thing, and repeat that thing. Your attention.

[TRANSITION]: Span is just. [01:17:55]

Zara: Not there anymore.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What would you do if you had, like, a day off [01:18:00] and you had no one to report to? Nothing. No, no. No sort of jobs? [01:18:05] No. No expectations of you. What would you do?

Zara: Um. [01:18:10] Travel.

[TRANSITION]: He’d love [01:18:15] it that much.

Zara: Yeah, I love it. I love it because of the experience that you gain. [01:18:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but if you had half a day.

[TRANSITION]: Okay, fine.

Payman Langroudi: If travel was.

[TRANSITION]: Impossible. Um. [01:18:25]

Payman Langroudi: Are you, like, your sister? Do you go to the gym a lot and all of that?

Zara: I can’t [01:18:30] lie. I don’t. I don’t like the gym. I know that I need to do strength training because she goes on at me all the time, which is important, [01:18:35] because now I’m, you know, 34. It’s it’s it’s. Yeah. The body is not what it [01:18:40] used to be.

[TRANSITION]: 34. Yeah.

Zara: Um, so I love [01:18:45] dance workouts. I love, love, love dance. It’s a huge thing. Whenever I’m low, [01:18:50] if I’m, you know, going through a depressed period or whatever, it always increases [01:18:55] my mood. Um, any kind of dance I love, um, salsa, tango, [01:19:00] belly dance.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, really?

Zara: Persian dancing. Like, I just love it. And, um, [01:19:05] massage as well. Like, I will go in, and especially with our job. My head’s [01:19:10] down all day.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, it’s.

Zara: And it really is just that one time I just switched my phone off, and [01:19:15] it’s it’s just my happy place.

[TRANSITION]: Do you use loops?

Zara: I do, and [01:19:20] routinely. Yeah, well, before I didn’t. But now with the ergo loops I can keep my back [01:19:25] straight. And they’re just now I don’t work without them really. Whereas before I would be like, [01:19:30] okay, I’m gonna take my loops. Maybe if I’m if I don’t have them, blah blah blah, then it’s not a big deal. And now that I’ve tried [01:19:35] these, it makes a huge difference for my back being down and, you know, [01:19:40] straight up.

Payman Langroudi: Where do you reckon if I invited you back on this show, like in seven [01:19:45] years time, where where do you think you’re going to be career wise? Like what [01:19:50] would be a great outcome?

Zara: Mm. Um, so [01:19:55] currently I’m also studying for my level seven facial aesthetics. So also [01:20:00] incorporate going down that route.

[TRANSITION]: Have you done.

Payman Langroudi: Level 1.

[TRANSITION]: To 6.

Zara: So no, it’s not like that. [01:20:05]

[TRANSITION]: Is it though. So it’s like level seven means it’s like a diploma. Level seven is.

Zara: Like [01:20:10] the master’s.

[TRANSITION]: Course. It’s what the.

Zara: Surgeons are doing. Now I could have just done like a short one day, two day course, but I was like, [01:20:15] I want the biggest, longest course out there. You know, I’m someone that I am a nerd, [01:20:20] and I want to make sure that I know everything. Completely. Everything. Um, and [01:20:25] so, yeah.

[TRANSITION]: I started training.

Zara: With BTC.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, really?

Zara: Uh, BTC. Yeah. [01:20:30] With Hari Singh. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: And, um, so you haven’t started yet? No, I.

Zara: Have started it, but it’s like a year and a half. [01:20:35] Um. Master’s course.

Payman Langroudi: You haven’t started treating patients?

[TRANSITION]: No.

Zara: So basically [01:20:40] doing the theory. Um, and then I’m going to be doing the foundation [01:20:45] in next year in January. Um, and then once I do that, then I’ll be able to [01:20:50] treat patients at the same time as completing the master’s course on the side.

Payman Langroudi: And what’s the commitment?

Zara: Uh, [01:20:55] it’s it’s basically theories all online. And then you see the training is in person, [01:21:00] the clinical training. And then you also observe more models. [01:21:05] I think it’s like 20, um, for each Botox fillers. And then obviously like the dissertation [01:21:10] part as well. So it is intense. But you know, it’s something that [01:21:15] I want to do. So I was like, I want to do the biggest course. Also, aesthetics is not regulated [01:21:20] in the UK and who knows what’s going to happen if they do bring in regulations. I don’t need to worry [01:21:25] about it. I’ve got this. But alongside this, I think business is [01:21:30] something that I really enjoy and want to go down that route. [01:21:35]

[TRANSITION]: So you don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Strike me as that.

[TRANSITION]: Type? No, no.

Zara: I think just [01:21:40] having.

Payman Langroudi: You do strike me as someone who’d be, like, highly successful, you know.

[TRANSITION]: Like having [01:21:45] something else on the side.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, but highly successful hygienist, right? I can imagine you wooing your patients [01:21:50] and getting them back every two months or three months and whitening and all. I get that. Yeah, [01:21:55] but you don’t strike me as the type who wants to do business, do you?

[TRANSITION]: I got [01:22:00] you wrong.

Zara: Because I’m not going to be able to do this for the rest of my life. And I don’t want to be 70 bending over [01:22:05] treating patients. So there’s only so much. So that’s why I’m just trying to think in the future, [01:22:10] what can I do where I’m not physically, you know.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:22:15] see. All right, so seven years time, you’re going to be botoxing people. [01:22:20]

Zara: I mean, sooner than that.

[TRANSITION]: In where.

Payman Langroudi: Like, are you going to have your own place? [01:22:25] Is that how you feel?

Zara: Um, once I start, obviously it makes sense to [01:22:30] treat patients in practice because I’m already working there. But, um, who knows? I think [01:22:35] that’s something that it’s nice to have your own business. Your own something that’s yours. Everyone else [01:22:40] you know does it, and it’s it’s nice. You need to want it, but I think. Yeah. Why [01:22:45] not?

Payman Langroudi: Well, yeah, I mean, I came across I have a dental [01:22:50] nurse who she owns ten practices. Mhm. Would you like to own a practice?

Zara: I [01:22:55] had thought about it in the past. Yeah. Um, now recently joining two squat practices [01:23:00] I can see how much work goes behind. It’s literally it is 24 over seven Sunday. [01:23:05]

[TRANSITION]: Whatever. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s three years. Three years.

[TRANSITION]: Of pain. It’s. Yeah.

Zara: You really, really [01:23:10] need to be devoted to it. You really need to want it.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Zara: Um, there are hygienists that [01:23:15] have their own practice. I have thought about it. Um, I’ve also there are hygienists [01:23:20] there that, you know, will just rent out a room or rent out a space. Um, which I’ve done in [01:23:25] the past as well. So I think, yeah, there are opportunities there. [01:23:30] One’s more flexible than the other. You just really need to figure out what it is that you want.

Payman Langroudi: And do you think [01:23:35] that going forward, you’re going to be teaching?

Zara: Um, I do [01:23:40] like the idea of lecturing.

[TRANSITION]: And teaching.

Zara: Especially well with [01:23:45] guided biofilm therapy. Um, going down a little bit further [01:23:50] in that field. And, um, but also there’s skills [01:23:55] that we’re not taught at dental school and just being able to manage people. Dentistry [01:24:00] is a people business. It’s not about teeth. And you need to be treating [01:24:05] every.

[TRANSITION]: Individual people skills from you know, I don’t know, did you ever.

Payman Langroudi: Work in retail? [01:24:10]

Zara: I did. I actually used to work in the bookshop at Harrods.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? [01:24:15]

Zara: Well, that was one of my jobs.

[TRANSITION]: One of my like. That’ll help. Yeah.

Zara: Um, I also used to [01:24:20] work at one of Gordon Ramsay’s restaurants.

[TRANSITION]: As what? Pub?

Zara: Restaurant? As a waitress. This was, like, [01:24:25] really early on when I was obviously doing that on the side of doing the acting as well.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, [01:24:30] in.

Payman Langroudi: Between genetics and hygiene?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Anywhere else?

Zara: Um, [01:24:35] bar like hostess.

[TRANSITION]: Club hostess? Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Okay, [01:24:40] so now it’s coming out. But because I think, like, retail is the place where you learn to [01:24:45] really be a people person, you know?

Zara: But I think also you need you need all those skills. That’s why [01:24:50] I’m like I don’t encourage, you know, the younger generation to just go in, go to university, [01:24:55] pick a few subjects, like just figure out what it is that you want to do. Like it’s okay. You can you’ve got time. [01:25:00]

Payman Langroudi: Number of people I’ve had in here who are super successful and I’ve [01:25:05] sort of had pattern recognition that many of them had, like [01:25:10] parents who gave them a budget and anything over that budget they had [01:25:15] to go work for and had a job as a kid. And by having [01:25:20] a job as a kid met the public. Yeah. Number one so they [01:25:25] figured out how to talk to people, but even understood what a business is. I mean, I remember [01:25:30] the first business I really understood was my place. I mean, yeah, I [01:25:35] worked in Oxford Street for two weeks, but, you know, I really understood it. And that was this late? [01:25:40] Yeah. Um, it’s an interesting thing, you know, like like your [01:25:45] your life skills have nothing to do with, with, uh, necessarily hygiene. [01:25:50] Yeah. It’s to do with a combination of acting and club promoter. [01:25:55]

[TRANSITION]: I mean, life life experience. Yeah. Life experience, which.

Zara: Is so important. And you don’t get taught [01:26:00] that. And you just need to go out there and you just learn. I want to say you learn on the job. [01:26:05] Yeah. You just learn by doing.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. And you know.

Zara: You will make mistakes. But that’s [01:26:10] okay. Life goes on.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive pleasure. I’ve really enjoyed it. We’re going to get to our last [01:26:15] questions, which are always the same. You said you listened to this, right? Fantasy [01:26:20] dinner party. Three guests, dead or alive. Um, are you [01:26:25] having.

Zara: So.

[TRANSITION]: Emily Pankhurst. Oh, really? Yeah. Women’s rights. [01:26:30]

Payman Langroudi: She’s buried, I think, in Brompton Cemetery. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Near me.

Zara: Um, obviously, [01:26:35] I’m a huge, huge advocate for women’s rights and equality, [01:26:40] so. Yeah, I think that would be amazing. And, um, Reza [01:26:45] Pahlavi, the Shah of Iran.

[TRANSITION]: The Shah himself. Yeah.

Zara: Who’s dead now? [01:26:50] Um, and also Robbie Williams.

[TRANSITION]: I [01:26:55] love Robbie Williams. I love Robbie Williams.

Zara: It’s like, you know, someone who just brought so much joy to everyone and then ended [01:27:00] up committing suicide, sadly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Anthony Bourdain.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:27:05] Also same story. Yeah.

Zara: We need a whole nother podcast just on food.

[TRANSITION]: But I know, [01:27:10] I know.

Payman Langroudi: Why the Shah.

Zara: Um, I think because I feel like people [01:27:15] were. So there was so much tourism in Iran. You know, we were up here. Now I [01:27:20] feel like it’s kind of, you know, people just think of Iran as, oh, this like [01:27:25] desert. And it’s not like that at all. We had the double decker buses. We were high in fashion [01:27:30] and we had Concorde.

[TRANSITION]: So much, so much.

Zara: We had so much. And I think it would [01:27:35] just be so interesting to speak to him and just be like, you know, yo, like what happened? [01:27:40]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Agreed. Final questions. It’s [01:27:45] a deathbed question. It’s a bit weird with someone so young, but on your deathbed, [01:27:50] surrounded by your loved ones grandchildren’s grandchildren. [01:27:55] Three pieces of advice you can give them. What would they be?

Zara: Don’t [01:28:00] put pressure on yourself. You don’t need to be so hard on yourself [01:28:05] because at the end of the day, everything is going to be okay. It’s not the end of the world. [01:28:10] Whatever it is, it will pass.

[TRANSITION]: How do you.

Payman Langroudi: Know?

[TRANSITION]: Because it’s just life, [01:28:15] you know.

Zara: I’ve had.

[TRANSITION]: You’re right. Stuff that.

Zara: Things that have happened. [01:28:20] I’m sure I’m going to have bad things that are going to happen, but, um, it will pass. [01:28:25] Um, the other one is travel, because that’s [01:28:30] where you get your experience and you meet different people. And that’s what life is really. [01:28:35] For me, it’s about experience. It’s never I’m not someone who’s just like, I’ve. I always want [01:28:40] more. I want to learn more. I want to experience more. Um, and [01:28:45] don’t be afraid to ask for help because [01:28:50] there’s there’s nothing wrong with asking for help.

Payman Langroudi: And people want to help, you [01:28:55] know? Yeah, people want to help that much more than people think. Yeah, people want to help. It feels [01:29:00] good to help, you know?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Zara: Even if someone asked me, like, directions on the road, I’m like, okay. [01:29:05] And I’m just like, oh, yeah, that’s nice. It’s just something like, very small.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s [01:29:10] been a massive pleasure. I really enjoyed it.

[TRANSITION]: Really. Thank you so.

Zara: Much for having me.

[TRANSITION]: Likewise. [01:29:15]

[VOICE]: This is Dental. Leaders the [01:29:20] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:29:25] Your hosts Payman Langroudi [01:29:30] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. If you got this far, [01:29:35] you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually [01:29:40] sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m [01:29:45] assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [01:29:50] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it [01:29:55] too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.