Payman Langroudi: Interior composites are an area that a lot of us have trouble with, and the magic [00:00:05] that you get from a patient where you haven’t drilled their teeth and yet you’ve [00:00:10] improved their appearance, is something that, you know, the more whitening you do, the more aligners [00:00:15] you do, the more anterior composites you’ll have to do. If you’re not 100% on them, [00:00:20] get yourself on a course like Mini Smile Makeover with Depeche Palmer. Visit Mini [00:00:25] Smile makeover.com for dates and details. Now let’s get back to the podcast.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders [00:00:35] the podcast where you get to go one on [00:00:40] one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: One [00:00:50] of the loveliest things about my job is that I sometimes get to [00:00:55] meet my heroes. And my guest today is one of my dental business heroes who I’ve been watching [00:01:00] from afar for a long, long, long time. But I had the privilege to meet Anushka. Anushka? [00:01:05] Do people your friends call you Anushka or nurse?

Anushika Brogan: Nurse. Nurse. Nurse.

Payman Langroudi: Anushka. But. [00:01:10] Nurse. Um. Recently. Um. Nurse is one of the [00:01:15] only female owners of a big group of practices. 35 practices now mirror [00:01:20] 242. Already 42. Oh my goodness. The mirror Dental Studios, [00:01:25] which people will find all around the south of the UK. Have you moved [00:01:30] it around further than the south?

Anushika Brogan: So we’ve got one in Stafford, went up, came [00:01:35] back down again and then we’ve got one in Suffolk and two in Norfolk. [00:01:40]

Payman Langroudi: Now the rest around the south east.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, the rest. The rest are around the south east.

Payman Langroudi: Mother of three, which is [00:01:45] just extraordinary when I think about that, that you’ve achieved that and three [00:01:50] kids at the same time. Uh, massive Dirty Dancing fan I’ve heard. [00:01:55] How do I know so much about you? Well, because you were on a different pod. One of my favourites, the one in the chair [00:02:00] and two waiting with Haitham and Stuart. Yes. Um, [00:02:05] and I would. I would encourage everyone to listen to that pod. Um, today I kind of want to get behind [00:02:10] the sort of persona. Although I notice one thing about you, Anushka. You’re [00:02:15] kind of a bit under the radar. Bearing in mind what you’ve achieved, [00:02:20] you don’t put yourself out there as that person. Is that on purpose or by mistake? [00:02:25]

Anushika Brogan: Too busy working, is it? Yeah. Up until now, like until recently, [00:02:30] I’ve always been too busy working. So, you know, between working and the children, you [00:02:35] know, that’s been my life. Really. Like, you know, I’ve got I’ve got a lot of friends. So in [00:02:40] my free time, I really like to spend time with my friends and my family. Yeah. But, yeah, [00:02:45] I haven’t really had time to. I know a lot of people go and socialise a lot and, you know, within [00:02:50] network, within the circles. But for me, my family always came first. Well, I mean, you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Very well known [00:02:55] in DSO So circles, right? Because of that association of Dental groups that you’ve headed up? Yes. [00:03:00] Did you start that as well?

Anushika Brogan: No no no no no no no. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You were a director of it for a while.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, [00:03:05] I’ve been director for two years now. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so in those circles you’re very, very well known. [00:03:10] But in the general Dental, you just haven’t had time. You know, I guess you’re not a big social media person, [00:03:15] is that? Maybe that’s the.

Anushika Brogan: No, not not particularly. No, I don’t kind of, you know, put myself out on social [00:03:20] media so much so, so.

Payman Langroudi: This port it kind of goes, starts off generally with a backstory and all that. [00:03:25] But I tend to have sometimes a burning question that I want to just ask and, you know, go for it. My ADHD [00:03:30] side won’t let me relax until I’ve asked that question, right? What do you think is the difference [00:03:35] between a dentist who opens 1 or 2 practices and the dentist who [00:03:40] opens 30 or 40, and the one who then goes fully [00:03:45] corporate 300 or 400. Like, what is it about you? I mean, you, [00:03:50] when I listened to the previous pod, you made it sound very, very simple. Like, oh, the first [00:03:55] one started paying for itself. So I got another one. Got another one. But if that’s the case, why isn’t everyone [00:04:00] opening 35?

Anushika Brogan: I always knew that to run a corporate. Did you? Yeah. From the beginning. From the beginning, [00:04:05] I always knew I wanted to run a corporate. And my first job, um, when [00:04:10] I was doing my training, I actually asked the lady because [00:04:15] she she. It was a female practice owner, which was rare back then. And I [00:04:20] said to her, I want to own a group of practices. And there was a gentleman called, if I remember right, [00:04:25] Asif or Arif Lakhani. And he had a few practices back then and, um, [00:04:30] he kept saying, it’s not worth it. It’s not worth buying multiple practices. And the [00:04:35] business.

Payman Langroudi: Model he thought, doesn’t.

Anushika Brogan: Work. Yeah. And and I just thought, I don’t believe you. [00:04:40] I think it works. And then my second job, I went and worked for somebody who had multiple practices [00:04:45] and had made it work quite well and.

Payman Langroudi: Paid attention to what he was up.

Anushika Brogan: To. Yes. That’s right. [00:04:50] And, you know, like it was inspiring for me because actually that that was kind of what I wanted [00:04:55] to do. Yeah. And so.

Payman Langroudi: What were the lessons you, those early lessons you learned about. [00:05:00]

Anushika Brogan: That? I suppose staff management, I suppose staff management was quite, [00:05:05] um, key to how good and bad I [00:05:10] think. You know, I think Norine, who I worked for first, had really tight control of her [00:05:15] staff, and the second guy didn’t so much. He was a bit more chilled, but actually the the staff [00:05:20] really liked him. But versus like, you know, the staff that worked for Norine, they respected [00:05:25] her. But it was it was difficult because it was a much stricter environment. [00:05:30] And it kind of really, you know, it teaches you what kind of leader you want to be. Yeah. In terms [00:05:35] of actually, you can’t let them get away with murder, but equally, you kind of want to land in [00:05:40] the middle somewhere, don’t you?

Payman Langroudi: I think as a dentist, one of the things about being a dentist is about being a perfectionist. [00:05:45] Yeah. And then because you’re doing this perfect mod, you [00:05:50] reckon you’re going to have to be completely in control, micromanage every aspect [00:05:55] of your business as well. And that’s the biggest sort of one of the things that stops people [00:06:00] growing because, like you say, you’re not going to run six practices, let alone 42, [00:06:05] by managing a bit.

Anushika Brogan: Of a 80 over 20 kind of girl like, you know, I just think you have to my, [00:06:10] my dad, um, my parents owned, owned a couple of shops, and [00:06:15] my dad was really chill and my mum was really strict.

Payman Langroudi: And so you could see the difference.

Anushika Brogan: You can see the difference, [00:06:20] right? Like, you know, actually, my dad probably used to lose a lot of stock to his [00:06:25] staff. And, you know, my mum just wouldn’t she’d have everything absolutely perfect and really organised and things [00:06:30] and you kind of see the two different styles of leadership. And actually people don’t really [00:06:35] enjoy working when it’s too strict. I feel for sure. I think that you have to let them [00:06:40] just autonomy. Yeah. Have a little bit of autonomy and, and have like, you know, their own authenticity. [00:06:45] So I think that’s important.

Payman Langroudi: Where do you fall on working from home. Do you [00:06:50] like that or not at all?

Anushika Brogan: Uh. Mostly not. Mostly. I like to be in the [00:06:55] office once in a while.

Payman Langroudi: For your team? I mean, like, if you had a team member of [00:07:00] staff who’s who’s back office, like, doesn’t meet patients. Can they be working from home or. You don’t [00:07:05] like.

Anushika Brogan: That? I’m not. I’m not a big fan of working from home. So there’s an.

Payman Langroudi: Aspect of you that does like [00:07:10] to check on like to that extent. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, yeah. But I think also when people are [00:07:15] working around you, you work harder.

Payman Langroudi: Or not or not. Yeah or.

Anushika Brogan: Not. [00:07:20] It depends on on the atmosphere. And we’ve had various times even in our support office where [00:07:25] it’s been too chatty. You know, you’re just like come on guys. Like, you know, I’m paying you a salary to do a job [00:07:30] and you’re spending half the day talking. Nah, that’s not okay. You know, it happens from time [00:07:35] to time, but equally, you want them to get on. So. Yeah. Yeah. But for me, I don’t I don’t tend to [00:07:40] go to them and say, you know like stop talking. [00:07:45] I’ll change their job role because I think they’re not busy enough. And I would do it that way, you [00:07:50] know. So I would I would kind of manage it that way rather than go for them, because that’s not my personality [00:07:55] at all.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t like confrontation?

Anushika Brogan: Um, I don’t mind confrontation. [00:08:00] If it’s necessary. If it’s necessary, bring it. You know, I’ll have [00:08:05] a fight with anybody. You don’t think you can.

Payman Langroudi: Get the best out of people?

Anushika Brogan: I don’t think you get the best out of people when you’re confrontational. I [00:08:10] think having a sit down with them and just having a chat with them and just going, right, I’m going to change things around [00:08:15] a little bit or what’s not working. What is working is a better way.

Payman Langroudi: Would you say that’s your superpower, [00:08:20] like getting the most out of people? Yeah. Really? Yes.

Anushika Brogan: I’m really empathetic. [00:08:25] And people I think I’m quite relatable. Yeah. Um, [00:08:30] and try and be nice to people. And it really works. It really works [00:08:35] because there’s.

Payman Langroudi: Quite a lot of hats you have to wear as the owner of multiple practices. Right. And for [00:08:40] me, like, one thing I hate in my life is building works. You know, like I’ve had to [00:08:45] do it right, But I hate my life during that period of building works. Because I don’t know. Because I [00:08:50] don’t understand it myself. I feel like I’m getting ripped off.

Anushika Brogan: Also, your ADHD because you don’t like chaos, right? [00:08:55]

Payman Langroudi: True, true. Um, but what I’m saying is one of the hats. If you want to own 42 practices, [00:09:00] one of your hats is you’ve got to be a property developer. Yeah. I mean, there’s no doubt about that. Yeah. You got to be completely comfortable [00:09:05] as a property developer. You have to have a team of builders constantly doing places up. Yep. Turning a [00:09:10] three surgery practice into a seven surgery practice. That’s the way to to to make that business work, right? Definitely. [00:09:15] But that’s only one of your hats. Yes. Because I’ve got a friend who’s a property developer, and he. You know, he’s not [00:09:20] the most personable guy around here. Now, now, your other hat is [00:09:25] someone who inspires employees, which is everyone other [00:09:30] than the self-employed ones. Yes. And then you’ve got this hat. The clinical kind of [00:09:35] hat, which is, you know, a whole nother skill.

Anushika Brogan: And actually managing dentists is [00:09:40] completely different to managing team members.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely.

Anushika Brogan: Absolutely totally different. [00:09:45]

Payman Langroudi: And let’s not forget government tendering, [00:09:50] association of Dental groups. Like all that whole side that you’ve gone into. [00:09:55] Let’s not forget finance. Right. Persuading people to lend you money. [00:10:00] And then in your world, like, you know, in my world, I’m looking at, um, I don’t know, Invisalign [00:10:05] as my dream, sort of. Or those cats from Australia. Um. Hi. [00:10:10] Smile. Yes. Like the two, 221 year old kids are destroying me [00:10:15] in the business world. Yeah. So in your world, you must be looking at private equity. [00:10:20] Can 42 be 420?

Anushika Brogan: So I’ve done that whole journey already. [00:10:25] Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But I’m saying there’s a lot of hats. Yeah, it’s a lot of hats.

Anushika Brogan: You have to learn really quickly. Yeah. [00:10:30] So. So a few years ago, I almost sold to private equity, and then I backed out at the very last minute. [00:10:35] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What was the thing that, like, the.

Anushika Brogan: I just started [00:10:40] having sleepless nights about not having any control over my life. And, you know, I [00:10:45] just I don’t like being told what to do. I don’t I haven’t since I was a child. I don’t, [00:10:50] I don’t like I don’t like being told what to do. You know, I’ve only ever interviewed for jobs twice. [00:10:55] So, you know, I just don’t I don’t think I would do very well with someone [00:11:00] scrutinising me constantly. I think that would demotivate me completely. And, [00:11:05] um, I just decided that it wasn’t for me.

Payman Langroudi: Have [00:11:10] you ruled it out forever or. Yes. Not necessarily.

Anushika Brogan: No, I’ve ruled it out forever.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. It’s completely [00:11:15] off my radar. It’s not happening.

Payman Langroudi: Surely there’s a deal there that says, hey, don’t just leave me completely alone. [00:11:20] Take £1 million less and say, leave me completely alone. I can work from wherever I like and do whatever [00:11:25] I want. No, no, no.

Anushika Brogan: There is, there is, there is no, no money for money. There’s no [00:11:30] amount of money that would persuade me to do a deal, no amount of money.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:11:35] that’s so interesting. Is it because you love your life so much right now? Yeah. Is that the reason? Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: I’m [00:11:40] really happy, and I actually think that I’m building a legacy for my children, [00:11:45] and whether they decide to work in the business or not is absolutely fine. They’ve made noises about [00:11:50] it at some point, but if they do, great. If they don’t, also great. I [00:11:55] will put structure in place so that the business continue to run. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have [00:12:00] they have they said they want to.

Anushika Brogan: At various points. Yes. My two boys. Because my [00:12:05] little one’s little. How old is she. She’s eight.

Payman Langroudi: Oh and how old are your boys?

Anushika Brogan: My eldest is 22 [00:12:10] and my middle one is turning 19 next month.

Payman Langroudi: Your eldest [00:12:15] studied law and is an amazing singer. Yes. I noticed on TikTok. [00:12:20]

Anushika Brogan: Yes. He is.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing voice.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, he’s really good.

Payman Langroudi: Your middle one is in dental school? [00:12:25]

Anushika Brogan: Yes, he’s just started Madrid.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, Madrid. Really? Yeah. I’ve got a friend in Madrid. The one outside Madrid. [00:12:30]

Anushika Brogan: Um, okay. Yeah. Just outside.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah yeah. Yeah, yeah. And your youngest? You don’t know nothing. [00:12:35]

Anushika Brogan: She wants to be a dog walker. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: So it could be. It could be. Your sons [00:12:40] end up bringing in private equity or whatever. You know, that could happen.

Anushika Brogan: I don’t I don’t think they will. I [00:12:45] don’t think they will. But they I mean, when it when it’s theirs, it’s up to them what they do with it. [00:12:50] I, you know, when it’s my life, I want to be in control of my life.

Payman Langroudi: So listen, [00:12:55] I don’t want it to be negative. Right? But I do want to hear the other side of of of the story [00:13:00] as well. Yeah. Because it’s all well and good right now.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:13:05] I mean, we there’s no business owner that does a new thing [00:13:10] and doesn’t sacrifice during that process. Like for me, the way [00:13:15] I would think of it is we’re bringing out Desensitiser pen next week, right? Just that little pen has [00:13:20] caused me all sorts of sacrifices. I missed the birthday party, whatever. Yeah, yeah, it’s a pen. Yeah. [00:13:25] With you, every single practice purchase is a product in the end, right? Yeah. What [00:13:30] have been the sacrifices that you’ve made to get to where you’ve gotten to?

Anushika Brogan: I’m still making [00:13:35] sacrifices constantly. So the deal we’ve just done seven practices. [00:13:40] We bought them in July.

Payman Langroudi: All in one go.

Anushika Brogan: July to August. Yeah. And it was it was [00:13:45] a company that went bankrupt. Yeah. And we just it just came on my radar. [00:13:50] I jumped on it. I put an offer in within a week. I was buying the practices. [00:13:55] Wow. And honestly, I think it was the 20 something [00:14:00] of July and I was going on holiday, our like, family holiday where [00:14:05] my sons just graduated. My other one’s just about to go to Madrid, and I’ve been [00:14:10] working constantly for like, you know, quite a few months and it’s our time to spend together [00:14:15] and it’s a week away from completion. So, um, on I think [00:14:20] we were going on my, my ten year anniversary, and during that lunch [00:14:25] I was signing some of the papers. Okay. And then [00:14:30] and then when we went on holiday, everyone was sleeping. They all thought I was asleep, and [00:14:35] I was awake in the middle of the night, doing all my work so that I could spend family time with them. It’s [00:14:40] part of the sacrifice, right? This is what I want to do. But I’m not going to interfere with my time. [00:14:45] My family time is important that that is boxed off as in like. And [00:14:50] they feel prioritised because otherwise they’ll always feel like they’re second best. And I don’t want that to be the case. Yeah. [00:14:55]

Payman Langroudi: But you know, children of business owners know that sometimes business comes first. Sometimes it does, sometimes [00:15:00] it. Be honest about that. Right.

Anushika Brogan: Sometimes it does come first. And and my, my kids are realists. Right. [00:15:05] They’ve seen, um, both myself and my ex-husband both have businesses. Both have [00:15:10] to work hard. Both have to do all of that. I am so fortunate. Now I’ve got the most amazing husband [00:15:15] who is really, really supportive of.

Payman Langroudi: Is he involved as well?

[TRANSITION]: No, not at [00:15:20] all.

Anushika Brogan: And it’s better that way because he totally separates things and keeps [00:15:25] everything calm so that when it’s chaotic, for me, it doesn’t impact on the children [00:15:30] at all. They’ve always got that stability, which is really important.

Payman Langroudi: And how far did the mirror [00:15:35] go, or how many practices did you have when you first broke up with your first husband? [00:15:40]

Anushika Brogan: So, um, I had nine. And [00:15:45] then during our divorce, I won a tender for another 3 or 4. [00:15:50] So it just kind of maybe it was eight, I think it was eight. And then I got 12, and [00:15:55] then I ended up with six with nine in the end. Oh.

[TRANSITION]: With nine?

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, I ended up with nine at the end of my divorce. [00:16:00]

[TRANSITION]: Wow.

Anushika Brogan: So but it.

Payman Langroudi: Was I listened to your story. You said you bought your first one [00:16:05] when your son, who’s just qualified as a lawyer, was nine months [00:16:10] old.

[TRANSITION]: That’s right. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then I was rewinding and saying, well, that means that you were looking at it when you [00:16:15] were nine months pregnant.

Anushika Brogan: I know I was looking at it when I just got pregnant and didn’t know I was. [00:16:20]

Payman Langroudi: There you go.

[TRANSITION]: There you go.

Anushika Brogan: Because it takes six months or so, doesn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: I was thinking that level of [00:16:25] that level of, you know, call it what you like, right? Risk taking or whatever it is. Like most people, [00:16:30] pregnancy that becomes a thing in itself. But you were there buying that first practice. [00:16:35]

Anushika Brogan: I had to. I had motivation behind me. I was living with my ex in-laws and I didn’t like [00:16:40] it, and I wanted to get out, and I, um, I couldn’t decide whether [00:16:45] to buy a practice or a house. And so, um, I actually went to see a [00:16:50] clairvoyant of all things, and the clairvoyant said, buy a practice, so I did. [00:16:55] That’s what you do when you’re 23. 24? [00:17:00] Yeah. Just no guidance. Just like I don’t know what to do.

Payman Langroudi: And then. Okay. And then [00:17:05] you very quickly paid that practice off.

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So what, you paid off [00:17:10] more than you had to.

[TRANSITION]: Yes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And you quickly learnt how to run a dental practice. [00:17:15]

Anushika Brogan: Yes. It was a steep learning curve. But you know, back then there wasn’t all the regulation [00:17:20] and all the, you know, nowadays, I mean, you had an NHS inspection, a guy came round, you gave him a cup [00:17:25] of coffee and he was like, oh, put a sign here and do this and you’ll be fine. That was it. Yeah. It was really easy. [00:17:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but what are you referring to? Things like CQC and all that.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But at the end of the day, I [00:17:35] don’t think the difference between successful practice and, you know, not so successful practice is [00:17:40] how they execute on CQC. I mean the learning on how to make this place work and [00:17:45] work without you in it in such a short period of time.

[TRANSITION]: I think that’s. [00:17:50]

Payman Langroudi: A real skill.

[TRANSITION]: I think the.

Anushika Brogan: Difficulty is now that because of those things and the [00:17:55] like, you know, it is harder. It’s like, you know, with your first practice back then, all I had to focus [00:18:00] on was being a dentist myself, making sure my staff were paid, making sure everything was clean and disinfected. [00:18:05]

[TRANSITION]: That was it.

Anushika Brogan: Now you have to jump through so many [00:18:10] hoops, so it is much harder to be a practice owner, a single practice owner now. And [00:18:15] I think that, you know, I remember back then thinking that our property used to be so [00:18:20] cheap. It used to be so like, you know, you used to be able to do this, but actually you’re right that [00:18:25] it is just mind over matter, that if you are that determined that you want to do something, [00:18:30] you can do it. And I think it’s about having that motivation and determination and just [00:18:35] saying, that’s my goal. I’m going to get there and then you can achieve it.

Payman Langroudi: For how long? [00:18:40] Or maybe you’re going to tell me you’re still doing it right. For how long were you sinking every single dollar [00:18:45] back into the business? It must have been years and years and years and years to grow at this rate.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, I mean, I still still [00:18:50] are.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: I don’t take I just take a dividend. That’s it. Mostly [00:18:55] everything goes back into the business.

[TRANSITION]: It’s interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Man. It’s interesting [00:19:00] because it takes a certain person to do that. Here you’re saying you don’t want to sell it [00:19:05] either? Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: What am I doing with my life?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Listen, by the way, there’s [00:19:10] nothing wrong with building something, right? For the sake of building something, it’s a beautiful thing. Like I’m [00:19:15] building this podcast for the sake of building this. You know, I’m not gaining massively from doing this podcast. I’m enjoying [00:19:20] doing this podcast. I’m doing this podcast. But what is the driver? Like, what is that driver like?

[TRANSITION]: That [00:19:25] competitive spirit.

Anushika Brogan: I’ve got a really clear life goal. So when I was [00:19:30] younger, I really wanted to travel and my dad always said to me, no, because if you come out of education, [00:19:35] it’s really difficult to get back in. It’s really difficult to focus again. Blah, blah, blah. So he was [00:19:40] always like, get your education out of the way. Then when I got my education out of the way, then you start working, then you see money, then [00:19:45] like it just doesn’t happen, does it? So and I’ve hardly travelled, to be honest, I’ve hardly [00:19:50] travelled.

Payman Langroudi: Back to that sacrifice. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Right. So. And for me, I, I’ve [00:19:55] always wanted to get to 50 practices. Okay.

[TRANSITION]: Just just a number. You just made up just because.

Anushika Brogan: Just [00:20:00] because that’s what I’ve always wanted to do. Yeah. And and actually my goals have changed over the [00:20:05] years because I can remember when I used to write a diary and in my diary, [00:20:10] I wrote, all I want to be able to do is send my children to private school, have a nice big house, [00:20:15] have nice cars. That was it. That was the goal. Then the goal changed to oh, I want ten [00:20:20] practices. Then the goal changed to I want 25 practices. Now it’s 50, but I feel like [00:20:25] 50 is achievable. Very.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: And I feel like I feel like [00:20:30] I have done my life’s work in that. And then I want to pay off all my debt, because [00:20:35] obviously you have to leverage yourself. And then I want to take a big fat dividend out, and [00:20:40] then I want to go travelling so I know what I want to do.

Payman Langroudi: And what’s your time frame [00:20:45] you’ve put on that? Like what’s your.

[TRANSITION]: Ideal?

Anushika Brogan: Um, so my daughters. Yeah. Um, eight. Yeah. So I kind [00:20:50] of think another 10 to 12 years so that she’s settled at university, my eldest [00:20:55] children will be older so that they’re in the country or they’re around so that they can take care of her if I’m not here. [00:21:00]

Payman Langroudi: I like that level of, you know, like ten year planning ahead.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. I’ve always been a ten [00:21:05] year. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. So and again, listening to your other conversations, like, massively organised [00:21:10] like sort of zoning family time with work [00:21:15] time and all of that. You’ve always been that cat to I.

Anushika Brogan: I hate [00:21:20] cat like when it’s not structured. I have a very structured life. So I know on a Monday [00:21:25] I have certain meetings in my diary every Monday. I exercise in a certain [00:21:30] way. On a Monday I eat like certain I’m.

[TRANSITION]: Quite 4 a.m.. Yeah, you answered.

Payman Langroudi: My text [00:21:35] at 4:30 a.m.. Yeah, I sent at like 2:30 a.m. before I’d gone to bed.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:21:40] So what time do you go to bed?

Anushika Brogan: I go to bed normally around ten, like 930, ten.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:21:45] wake up at 4 a.m..

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: 1112, one two, three four. Five hours.

[TRANSITION]: Sleep.

Anushika Brogan: Six. [00:21:50] I aim for six. I aim for six. My husband kills me because he’s read that Matthew Walker book.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Each [00:21:55] hour. So like.

[TRANSITION]: He said, you’re.

Anushika Brogan: Gonna get a dementia. [00:22:00] Yeah. I don’t want you to get dementia. Go to sleep. I’m like, okay.

[TRANSITION]: So you get.

Payman Langroudi: Up at [00:22:05] 4 a.m. and.

[TRANSITION]: Run. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: So. So on a Monday.

[TRANSITION]: Darkness.

Anushika Brogan: In the no. So Monday, Wednesday and [00:22:10] Friday, my husband and I run.

[TRANSITION]: Together at 4 a.m.. Yeah. Poor guy. No, no.

Anushika Brogan: He’s [00:22:15] a he’s a personal trainer. So he’s he’s down for it. So he’s happy. He hasn’t always run with me [00:22:20] but I like running and he likes weights. So we’ve kind of compromised in the middle a little bit. Yeah. [00:22:25] So, um. Yeah. So we run together and that’s how we have our catch up. Because normally by the time I get home [00:22:30] from work, I am zonked. By the time I’ve spoken to the kids and everything, there’s nothing left.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s start there. What [00:22:35] time do you walk in?

Anushika Brogan: Um, I it depends on the day. Generally around six. [00:22:40]

Payman Langroudi: And you’re in bed by nine.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: So I walk in, dinner’s on the table, [00:22:45] so I always get home, have dinner, and then he’s cooked.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. He cooks. Yeah. [00:22:50] He cooks.

Anushika Brogan: So I’m so lucky.

[TRANSITION]: I don’t like.

Anushika Brogan: Cooking, so.

[TRANSITION]: It’s great [00:22:55] for me now. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: I mean, I can cook because, you know, um, brought up cooking, [00:23:00] but I’m not a big fan.

Payman Langroudi: So. So. Okay. Then dinner, then you’ve got basically one hour of, like, [00:23:05] me time, which isn’t even me time. Right?

[TRANSITION]: It’s with everyone much me time.

Payman Langroudi: So your me time [00:23:10] is while you’re running.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like everyone needs me time somewhere.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. I mean, I tend [00:23:15] to, I tend to have. So I’ve, like, started listening to audiobooks now, like, you know, all of that [00:23:20] kind of thing is just like where I have a bit of me time.

[TRANSITION]: All right, so then 5:00.

Anushika Brogan: So then so then [00:23:25] we basically. So we wake up around four, we start running about 440. Yeah. And [00:23:30] and then he runs a boot camp. So we carry on running till about 540 roughly. [00:23:35] And then I do boot camp 6 to 645.

[TRANSITION]: As well as well. Okay.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. [00:23:40] And then, um, we’re back 645 ish back at home. See the [00:23:45] kids just for 20 minutes or so and then jump in the shower, and I’m at my desk by 8:00.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:23:50] your desk is at head office.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Head office.

Anushika Brogan: Which is 15.

[TRANSITION]: Minutes, 15.

Anushika Brogan: Minutes away from home. [00:23:55]

Payman Langroudi: Wow. And then what’s your typical day? Lots of meetings.

Anushika Brogan: Monday. Mondays [00:24:00] are generally meetings day, so I’m in and out.

[TRANSITION]: Of meetings all.

Anushika Brogan: Day long. All day [00:24:05] long, um, interviews, meetings, whatever needs doing and just catching up with.

Payman Langroudi: But give [00:24:10] me a flavour of that. Is it like the area managers, the dentists?

[TRANSITION]: No.

Anushika Brogan: So I don’t I don’t catch up with the area [00:24:15] manager. Area managers are out in practice on a Monday. Okay. So I tend to have like head office is meeting. So I meet with [00:24:20] my central ops team and my marketing team. I meet with senior [00:24:25] leadership team and then. Yeah, so any suppliers we have in the afternoon. [00:24:30] So um, that type of thing. And then just general work that’s kind of pending. Mondays [00:24:35] is always busy day. So something or other is always happening operationally.

Payman Langroudi: Something’s going wrong. Right.

Anushika Brogan: Something’s going [00:24:40] wrong somewhere.

[TRANSITION]: So how many dentists is it?

Anushika Brogan: Uh, we have now got 202. [00:24:45]

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, 202 dentists at the moment.

Payman Langroudi: 202 [00:24:50] dentists. That’s. So there’s constantly at GDC case going [00:24:55] on. There’s constantly divorce going on. Like, you know what I mean? There’s 200.

[TRANSITION]: People. Yeah. Yeah. [00:25:00]

Payman Langroudi: There’s a birthday every day.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah. There’s always stuff.

Anushika Brogan: There’s always stuff.

[TRANSITION]: So [00:25:05] and of.

Payman Langroudi: Of those 42 practices I understand some of them are gigantic. [00:25:10] Like one of them that we, we went to HS. You’ve got a few like ten chair ones. [00:25:15] Yeah. And then some of them are tiny.

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Anushika Brogan: I mean, smallest is two surgeries [00:25:20] and but yeah, a lot of them are eight, ten.

Payman Langroudi: And the majority [00:25:25] are mixed.

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s the model you like?

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. That’s the model I like most.

Payman Langroudi: And you’ve got [00:25:30] a couple of private.

Anushika Brogan: I’ve got five private.

Payman Langroudi: Five private.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And you [00:25:35] still work? How long as a dentist?

Anushika Brogan: I mean, until three, four months ago, [00:25:40] I was working a full day. 8 to 6 on a Tuesday day.

[TRANSITION]: Week?

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. Yeah. A week [00:25:45] now I do 8 to 2, but I don’t tend to leave there till about three. And then by [00:25:50] the time you’ve done all your notes and referrals and everything, I mean, it’s a full day.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:25:55] used to do a day a week for about six years, and then I just had a bad day and [00:26:00] I thought.

[TRANSITION]: I don’t need to do this anymore.

Payman Langroudi: Just don’t forget.

[TRANSITION]: It. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But you [00:26:05] being a practising dentist, I suspect in one way. I remember when [00:26:10] I used to do my day a week. There was an element of. There was a break, you know, that no one was going to, you [00:26:15] know, interrupt me during that. There was a kind of a break from this here, [00:26:20] but I found it stressful. I found it stressful. Like I started hating that day.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, [00:26:25] no, I love that day. Not that I.

Payman Langroudi: Used to hate being a dentist. I used to love being a dentist. Yeah. But that [00:26:30] day was a stressor in my head because I’m like, oh, regulations [00:26:35] are changing. Am I keeping up with them and all of that? You know, in your world, I guess [00:26:40] that’s you’re all about the regulations, right? So that you don’t have to worry about.

[TRANSITION]: I mean.

Anushika Brogan: You still have to worry about [00:26:45] it, but I’ve always had the attitude that, you know, what? If patients like you and, [00:26:50] you know, you feel like you’re. I mean, a lot of my patients have been coming to me for 20 years.

[TRANSITION]: You [00:26:55] know.

Payman Langroudi: So keeping in touch with those guys, I guess.

[TRANSITION]: Gives you pleasure. Chit chat with them, like, oh.

Anushika Brogan: It just [00:27:00] reminds me why. Why I’m doing what I’m doing. You know, it just is a good reminder because [00:27:05] it’s hard if you lose sight of what we did it for in the first place. You [00:27:10] know, I’m really, like, passionate about healthcare. Like, I really want to make sure that people are looked after. [00:27:15] Um, you know, and I think it’s quite difficult. I mean, I [00:27:20] got, I got trolled yesterday on TikTok by somebody like, you know, and you [00:27:25] know, when, when you get stuff like that happen, you’re just like, I take it really personally. I’ve really tried [00:27:30] not to. I was just like, you know, but it’s really difficult. And I’ve got a lot of what do they say?

[TRANSITION]: What do they [00:27:35] say?

Anushika Brogan: They were saying, like it’s a NHS patient who can get access, [00:27:40] right, standard, standard thing across the country. And they were basically, um, [00:27:45] calling my reception team retards. And I was just like, that is so rude for [00:27:50] a start. Like, that’s horrible. In the first few sentences, I was just like, I hate you already. I [00:27:55] don’t like you. You’re not a nice person because you would just would not say that. But he’s obviously creating [00:28:00] drama. And then he was saying stuff about me personally. He’d obviously like looked me up and [00:28:05] etc. and then my, my nurse who, um, is [00:28:10] a dentist, actually, he’s a Sudanese dentist. And, you know, we got a lot of the Sydney’s dentists out of the war [00:28:15] zone at the time. So we’ve got a lot of Sydney’s in our in our organisation. And he [00:28:20] said to me he was such a sweet guy. And he said to me at the time that, um, there’s, [00:28:25] there’s a saying that if you’re if you’re flying in the clouds, you shouldn’t [00:28:30] worry about dogs barking underneath you. And I just thought to myself, do you know what? That’s [00:28:35] that’s really true. But it’s really hard for me because I feel like it’s my brand. And, you know, when people [00:28:40] say stuff about DiMera, I still feel quite personal about it. But a [00:28:45] lot of my team do as well, of course, which is really nice.

Payman Langroudi: I think that’s your baby, right? [00:28:50] Yeah. Something they used to, they used there was a point where they pulled me out of the stand on [00:28:55] the show, in the shows, because if someone said something about enlightened, I’d suddenly get sweaty [00:29:00] and.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because you don’t want.

Anushika Brogan: You know, it’s important, [00:29:05] right? That like, you know, you care. If you don’t care, then you don’t make it work as well. [00:29:10] I feel.

[TRANSITION]: So, Yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: Had a patient contact me. I put my number everywhere. Yeah, everywhere. [00:29:15] And I had a patient call up and say, yeah, my teeth aren’t the same colour as [00:29:20] the before and afters on your on your page. And I said, yeah, [00:29:25] well they would be if the dentist took a picture of them. Yeah. And he said, well why don’t you say [00:29:30] on your page that that’s a dentist taking the picture of the thing. And I said, well, [00:29:35] I don’t know that, you know, that we do it clinically and all that. And then he got really [00:29:40] angry. He started shouting at me, and I felt that feeling again of protecting [00:29:45] my baby. Yeah. It’s a very personal thing, isn’t it? It’s a very personal thing.

[TRANSITION]: But I think dentists. [00:29:50]

Anushika Brogan: Don’t really talk about how that feels as much because, you know, it does happen [00:29:55] quite a lot. Like, you know, I can remember I can remember really clearly, you know, when first [00:30:00] year or two of practice, when I can remember, I obviously didn’t explain to someone [00:30:05] that they were going to have a gold crown in their mouth. Not not like a white one. And the guy just went [00:30:10] for me when I fitted his crown, went for me, and I was just like, oh, actually really [00:30:15] taught me. I’ve got to really make sure that they definitely want a gold or silver crown. But like [00:30:20] early on, you know, all of this kind of stuff happens, doesn’t it, in your career and nobody really talks about it, which [00:30:25] is hard. You kind of face it by yourself in your surgery and that’s it.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There’s early mistakes, right? [00:30:30]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I remember once I was on the brink of asking this lady, has [00:30:35] she thought about sorting out her skin or something. You know, like she had bad acne [00:30:40] or something. Yeah. And I just I was a child, I was, I was 22 or something, and I just thought, [00:30:45] no, I’m not going to ask that. But I was on the brink of it. Yeah, I might have, I might have, yeah. [00:30:50] And how that would have made her feel and you know what I mean. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: In hindsight.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Mistakes that you could make. [00:30:55] Right. So look there’s 200 dentists, 200 odd dentists. I suspect some [00:31:00] of them are specialists. Some of them are experienced, some of them are brand new. Some of them are overseas. [00:31:05] What have you learned about dentists managing dentists [00:31:10] because you have more experience in that than most?

Anushika Brogan: I think that, um, [00:31:15] I think that the nice ones are the ones that actually are [00:31:20] considerate and listen to.

[TRANSITION]: The patient.

Anushika Brogan: To patients. The ones that listen to you are [00:31:25] the ones that listen to their patients, and the ones that don’t listen to you are [00:31:30] the ones that don’t listen to their patients either. And it’s a problem. It’s a problem. [00:31:35]

[TRANSITION]: It’s a red flag. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. I find it like, you know, some people are really, like, [00:31:40] I know everything, you know, but. But if they’re treating me like that, they’re definitely [00:31:45] treating our patients like that. And for me, that’s just it’s a red flag. It’s [00:31:50] a red flag. Because, you know, they might be okay, but quite [00:31:55] often they’re not. So, um, that’s kind of one of my big learnings because [00:32:00] and it doesn’t matter whether they’re new or whether they’re old. Like, you know, when I say old, I mean that [00:32:05] they’ve been with us.

[TRANSITION]: For a long time. Yeah. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: It doesn’t matter because you get new people who are [00:32:10] exactly the same. They just don’t want to listen. They think they know everything.

Payman Langroudi: It’s such an interesting insight. What [00:32:15] else?

Anushika Brogan: Um, I think that.

[TRANSITION]: Do you think you. [00:32:20]

Payman Langroudi: Can tell from an interview what the dentist is going to be like? Have you got good at that? Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. Really [00:32:25] good.

Payman Langroudi: As in what? His communication.

Anushika Brogan: Communication. You can tell from the questions they ask, [00:32:30] I don’t I don’t interview people as such. I have a chat with them. Yeah. I like them to tell me about [00:32:35] themselves and like, you know, you can tell straight away from their body language whether [00:32:40] they’re shy, whether they’re, you know, whether they’re really confident, whether they have got ten offers [00:32:45] in their hands. And I’m just a number 11. You can just tell, you can tell from just chatting. [00:32:50]

[TRANSITION]: I mean.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve been you’ve been around long enough to be able to tell. Right. But yeah, but I had a guy here [00:32:55] a couple of weeks ago. Yeah. He was socially very awkward, very awkward [00:33:00] until we started talking about teeth. Once we started talking about teeth, he was. He was [00:33:05] the charming, like, amazing, you know. And I thought to myself, that’s such a big difference, [00:33:10] right? Yeah. They don’t realise he’s a very experienced dentist, right? He’s. He knows how to talk about teeth. Yes. [00:33:15] Yeah. But in that moment of, you know, hi to me. And would you like a coffee? He was. [00:33:20] He was a bit all over the place. But I guess you’ve got a sixth sense about that.

[TRANSITION]: But, you know. [00:33:25]

Anushika Brogan: I to that I think that actually you can be a really good, experienced dentist, but you have [00:33:30] to put your patients at ease. You have to be able to put your patients at ease, because whilst [00:33:35] they want to talk about their teeth and they need to talk about their teeth, actually, [00:33:40] if you talk a little bit around that and they’re comfortable, then they will relax. [00:33:45] And actually they’ll listen to what you’re saying about their teeth half the time. So that stress, they don’t even listen to what you’re saying and they miss [00:33:50] half the detail.

[TRANSITION]: Not to mention.

Payman Langroudi: The go for bigger treatment plan. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: That’s it.

Payman Langroudi: And the whole thing.

[TRANSITION]: Really? [00:33:55] That’s it.

Payman Langroudi: So who’s your longest standing dentist? [00:34:00] How long has he been with you?

Anushika Brogan: I had someone retire with me. I’ve [00:34:05] got another one about to retire with me as well.

[TRANSITION]: And is that the goal?

Payman Langroudi: Is that the goal?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That someone [00:34:10] stays, right?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, absolutely.

Anushika Brogan: I’ve got practice owners who I bought their practices ten, [00:34:15] ten years ago. They’re still here. I’ve got no ties to them. Never did have. They stay because [00:34:20] they want to stay because they’re happy.

[TRANSITION]: See what?

Payman Langroudi: We’re working with my dentist now, right? And I remember [00:34:25] you all. Remember this too? Yeah, ten years ago.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Terrible reputation [00:34:30] amongst dentists. Yeah. Now you go talk to their clinicians here, [00:34:35] and a bunch of them chose to go work there. Yeah, yeah. In the same way as, you know, like you might go [00:34:40] and choose to go to a McDonald’s because you know, what you’re going to get from them, chose to go work [00:34:45] there. Yeah. But also you can see throughout the management the whole thing is keeping dentists happy, [00:34:50] making sure dentists doesn’t leave.

Anushika Brogan: Tom, you did that.

[TRANSITION]: Sorry, Tom.

Anushika Brogan: You did that.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah. [00:34:55] Right.

Anushika Brogan: He’s he’s the one who’s done that.

[TRANSITION]: Changed it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: They’ve they’ve they’ve done [00:35:00] that Deliberately changed the values.

Payman Langroudi: For sure.

[TRANSITION]: For sure.

Anushika Brogan: Fantastic job.

Payman Langroudi: And so [00:35:05] would you say that that’s your key job? Like like is your key customer the dentist?

[TRANSITION]: Definitely. [00:35:10] Really? Yeah. Is that how you look at it?

Anushika Brogan: Patients are really important. I think that looking after patients [00:35:15] for support teams, they’ve got two jobs. Look after the patients. Look after the dentist. Because the dentist are [00:35:20] the ones that make the money. Yeah. Our job is to support them. If you if you don’t support them, you’re not doing your job [00:35:25] properly.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: That’s how you say.

[TRANSITION]: It to them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So then okay keeping dentists [00:35:30] happy. What are your top tips. What have you learned to do and not to do [00:35:35] to keep dentists.

Anushika Brogan: I mean if you’re a nurse turn up to work that’s important. [00:35:40] But like, you know, making sure that things are stocked properly, that’s really important. [00:35:45] You know, if they’ve got an issue, making sure that you sort it in a timely kind of fashion because, [00:35:50] you know, the worst thing is if something goes wrong, you know, people don’t. The dentists don’t ring me, [00:35:55] but if they ring me, it’s because something isn’t getting sorted quick enough. And I’ve said to all [00:36:00] of them, you’ve got my number. If for any reason you need to pick up the phone and ring me. Ring me. Don’t get frustrated [00:36:05] about stuff. Ring me. So. But they only ring me if something’s not getting sorted. And [00:36:10] then I know that. Come on, guys like you know this is your job.

Payman Langroudi: And then from the [00:36:15] recruitment perspective, do you talk to every single dentist?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Everyone. [00:36:20]

Payman Langroudi: Sure. You’re not talking to every single nurse, right. You’re not doing.

[TRANSITION]: No, no, not.

Anushika Brogan: Nurses, not [00:36:25] nurses, hygienists, etc.. So the area managers do um clinicians [00:36:30] so and therapists, hygienists etc.. Yeah. And um, they’ll [00:36:35] always they’ll always also meet the dentist before they start with us. Um, practice managers do [00:36:40] practice teams.

Payman Langroudi: So so then tell me about so the overall [00:36:45] like org chart. Yeah. How many people in head office like it’s you you’ve got your leadership [00:36:50] team. How many people do all those people the marketing leadership operations.

Anushika Brogan: We’ve got 34 [00:36:55] in support.

[TRANSITION]: Of head office. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then is [00:37:00] do you see that as your those that’s your business. Like you’re dealing with those people and [00:37:05] then only going talking to the practices.

[TRANSITION]: And so I.

Anushika Brogan: Directly manage the area managers.

[TRANSITION]: So so.

Anushika Brogan: On [00:37:10] a Monday I do all of the support teams like the people in the office.

[TRANSITION]: Meetings.

Anushika Brogan: On a Tuesday [00:37:15] when I’m driving to and from my clinical day, I have my catch ups with my area managers. So [00:37:20] I find out what’s going on, if they’ve got any queries, if they want to move people around, etc. but like, I’m [00:37:25] still very involved in who works where, all the rotors, all of that kind of stuff [00:37:30] because like that’s where you lose money if you are not driving those things carefully [00:37:35] and like surgeries aren’t full properly and things like that. So, um, I work quite [00:37:40] closely with the area managers and on that type of thing and business strategy, like, you know, if they’re stuck [00:37:45] on something, I’ll give them ideas on how to fix it. Um, and then [00:37:50] or who to move where, you know, because I know who all my clinicians are. So we [00:37:55] have chats around that. And then Wednesday I’m out in practice, so I try and get out to the practices [00:38:00] as much as possible.

Payman Langroudi: Whichever one needs you.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: So if there’s.

Payman Langroudi: Typically [00:38:05] what’s the problem like some.

[TRANSITION]: Argument or something.

Anushika Brogan: Normally dentists if dentists are like, [00:38:10] you know, making noise about leaving and we don’t want them to or anything like that. Yeah. Then, you [00:38:15] know, I’d go out and see them and just make sure that they’re okay. That type of thing. Um, or [00:38:20] if there’s. Yeah, if there’s arguments, sometimes there are arguments between teams and like, [00:38:25] you know, it’s a bit overwhelming most of the time the area managers can sort it, sometimes they can’t.

[TRANSITION]: So [00:38:30] and then you said the.

Payman Langroudi: Practice manager is in charge of the Ebit for each practice.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:38:35] incentivise that way. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:38:40] but then what kind of clothes do you keep on that. I mean you obviously look at that right.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:38:45] Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: So we have, um, monthly branch analysis meetings. So we look [00:38:50] at every branch in detail.

[TRANSITION]: And look.

Anushika Brogan: At their costs. So their overheads [00:38:55] and just like work out how that’s tracking against budget. So we [00:39:00] sent them a budget at the beginning of the year. And we just say to them that, look, you know, ultimately [00:39:05] we want you to achieve this EBITDA, whether you do it by earning more or whether you do it by cutting costs up to you, but [00:39:10] this is what you need to achieve, and then you get your bonus. So that’s what they’re working towards. [00:39:15] And then the area manager gets, you know.

[TRANSITION]: Um, incentivised, incentivised.

Anushika Brogan: By [00:39:20] their practices.

[TRANSITION]: And they’re taking.

Payman Langroudi: Care of like ten each or something.

Anushika Brogan: I’ve always found that 7 [00:39:25] or 8 is max for me.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: So they’re quite they’ve got quite a lot of attention on [00:39:30] those practices.

Payman Langroudi: What an organisation man. It just it just seems like [00:39:35] a total nightmare to me. You’ve got it, you’ve got it. You’ve got it down. What [00:39:40] about your perfect sort of model of of business that you want to buy? Is it one that has [00:39:45] got space for development?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I like, I like.

Anushika Brogan: I like very NHS practices [00:39:50] because I know I can build the private so I quite like, you know, they’re very NHS. [00:39:55] That’s great for me. Lots of potential to.

Payman Langroudi: Well there’s plenty of very NHS practices around the place but what [00:40:00] specifically.

Anushika Brogan: So I’d normally go for four chairs um usually. And [00:40:05] you know, the ones where they’re not hardly doing any Invisalign. They haven’t got implants in there, they haven’t got, [00:40:10] you know, they haven’t got because the practice has been there for a long time and has always done it one way, [00:40:15] stuff like that. They haven’t digitalised at all. They haven’t kind of like got digital, you know, [00:40:20] scanners and all of that kind of stuff. And just adding all of that in and getting new blood in there.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:40:25]

Payman Langroudi: But okay. But do you look at the location [00:40:30] and think that’s a good location for locations.

[TRANSITION]: Really important for cosmetic. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Locations. [00:40:35] No, not for cosmetic. For what? No. Because actually I found that [00:40:40] general bread and butter dentistry earns more than everything [00:40:45] else can do.

[TRANSITION]: I mean, look.

Anushika Brogan: If you think of a knee max crown, you’re going to earn the same. Doing an Emax crown as you [00:40:50] are time wise doing an implant, right? So yeah, actually, if you can get a lot of patients in, [00:40:55] it’s got to be busy. Location is really important because if it’s not busy, there’s no point.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah [00:41:00] but but okay so busy. Every NHS practice is busy.

[TRANSITION]: But.

Payman Langroudi: Busy with the kind of person who can afford [00:41:05] any max. Is that what you.

[TRANSITION]: Trying to say?

Anushika Brogan: Not necessarily. Because, like, one of my most successful practices is [00:41:10] in, like, a very, um, poor socioeconomic [00:41:15] area in Southampton.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a volume game.

[TRANSITION]: Volume.

Anushika Brogan: Game, totally, totally [00:41:20] a volume game.

Payman Langroudi: But then so my point is, what kind of area are you looking for then? How do you decide [00:41:25] that’s the right area or that isn’t.

Anushika Brogan: I think I think it’s I, I think it’s just with experience now, [00:41:30] I can tell whether or not I can make it work. So it’s not.

[TRANSITION]: That. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s let’s say [00:41:35] I’m in the practice in Southampton that’s just been bought by you. Yes. How quickly do you [00:41:40] go into the I mean, do you believe in sort of the evolution or the revolution way of doing [00:41:45] you go start rebranding.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have you? [00:41:50] I mean, that’s opposite advice.

[TRANSITION]: Opposite.

Anushika Brogan: Opposite to everybody.

[TRANSITION]: Else. That’s opposite.

Payman Langroudi: Advice to. Except for dev. [00:41:55] Yeah. Um. Dental. Beauty. Yeah. Who goes and smashes the place down and starts all over [00:42:00] again?

[TRANSITION]: Everyone else. Everyone else.

Payman Langroudi: Slowly. Slowly. Make the team feel [00:42:05] comfortable. Make the patients feel comfortable.

Anushika Brogan: For the practices it’s for. It’s not for the practice. Like the [00:42:10] patients. Because the patients, like people, take over stuff all the time. People are used to it, right? [00:42:15] It’s for the team. That’s what they do it for. And I think it depends because if you want to keep the team, [00:42:20] then slowly, slowly is a good way around. If you don’t want to keep the team.

[TRANSITION]: Then the always [00:42:25] better bits. Yeah that’s interesting.

Anushika Brogan: And most of the time when I’m buying businesses, you’d.

[TRANSITION]: Rather start [00:42:30] again.

Anushika Brogan: I’d rather start again because.

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Legacy and all that. So interesting. [00:42:35]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you’d rather have a four chair practice that looks like you can develop it? Yeah. And freehold? [00:42:40]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, if I can, if I can try. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then straight away you [00:42:45] smash it down, make it prettier.

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: New people, new.

Anushika Brogan: We don’t always straight [00:42:50] away smash it down. We plan to do it in the next year because if we’ve just bought it, we’re kind of letting [00:42:55] it run for a bit.

Payman Langroudi: When it comes to the smashing down. And how long does that take?

Anushika Brogan: Uh, [00:43:00] it depends on the size of the practice. So and it depends on what we’re doing. So I’ve done it before where [00:43:05] all we do is pretty up the waiting room and run that for five years and then do a massive [00:43:10] refurb.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Because actually the most important bit is the waiting room.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:43:15]

Anushika Brogan: If the waiting room looks nice, people are in.

[TRANSITION]: No, but.

Payman Langroudi: You’re also having to bring in scanners. Um, [00:43:20] yeah. Do you do any advertising, marketing or anything?

[TRANSITION]: No.

Payman Langroudi: Or word of mouth?

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. All word [00:43:25] of.

[TRANSITION]: Mouth. We. It’s interesting.

Anushika Brogan: We don’t spend hardly anything on marketing. Our marketing budget is really [00:43:30] low.

[TRANSITION]: That’s interesting.

Payman Langroudi: On purpose?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Why?

Anushika Brogan: Because [00:43:35] I feel like if you provide a really good service, people talk and then [00:43:40] you don’t have to. And I don’t tend to buy practices in central London, which is where it’s [00:43:45] competitive. And you have to really mark it. So. And, you know, there’s [00:43:50] other places where I just wouldn’t buy a practice. There’s, you know, there’s certain types [00:43:55] of people that just don’t like to spend money.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: And, you know, I just wouldn’t buy practices [00:44:00] around there.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:44:05]

Anushika Brogan: So, you know, like, you can’t make money out of those people. [00:44:10] You know, it’s like, you know, if you buy a practice where people are having their hair done and having their nails [00:44:15] done and having their, you know, you’re going to make money out of it, aren’t you?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So. [00:44:20] Okay. Now the practice is running and it’s kind of running. Not [00:44:25] the best. Yeah. How involved do you get then to, like.

[TRANSITION]: Increase?

Anushika Brogan: So.

[TRANSITION]: So [00:44:30] what do you do? What do you do?

Anushika Brogan: I would do is try and try and encourage the area managers to do this, do that, [00:44:35] do this, do that.

Payman Langroudi: Like whatever is right for.

[TRANSITION]: Whatever is right for that practice. What do you mean?

Payman Langroudi: Come on, give me a few tips. [00:44:40]

Anushika Brogan: So we try different things like different business models, right? Like, you know, maybe [00:44:45] I don’t know. Um, do you try and bring children in? So a [00:44:50] big way of bringing patients in is to target children. Free children?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anushika Brogan: You know, because [00:44:55] actually, not everyone’s got access. So, you know, we did that in the Isle of Wight in the beginning when I took over practices [00:45:00] on the Isle of Wight. And we needed patients. Just get the kids in because with the kids come the adults. And then you can sell to the [00:45:05] adults. Yeah. So, um, do that type of thing. Um, just [00:45:10] all kinds of initiatives. Even go to schools and put flyers in their, in their school bags, you know, go and do [00:45:15] a talk. Uh, key.

[TRANSITION]: Stage two marketing. That’s marketing.

Anushika Brogan: Marketing. It’s free.

[TRANSITION]: Right?

Payman Langroudi: Well, [00:45:20] yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Practically free compared to what you would spend on Google ads and all the rest of it. Don’t [00:45:25] tend to do many Google ad campaigns.

[TRANSITION]: I mean.

Payman Langroudi: While you’re doing the play, suppose I mean, do you do you [00:45:30] leaflet the local, do you go to local businesses and do anything, anything like that?

[TRANSITION]: Not really. [00:45:35]

Anushika Brogan: Not really. We don’t tend to. Signage is really important. Yeah, I think signage [00:45:40] is massive. I think that if you’ve got the right signage because most of the practices you go past, [00:45:45] you can’t even see that their dental practices.

Payman Langroudi: Many, many like that.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: And so like, you know, if you [00:45:50] if you like, we put massive signs everywhere that hello, we’re here.

[TRANSITION]: You know.

Payman Langroudi: Kunal [00:45:55] Patel. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Love teeth. Love teeth. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: His son, as you can see from outer space. Because [00:46:00] it’s not the biggest.

[TRANSITION]: But it’s right.

Anushika Brogan: Right. Like, people know that he’s there, so it’s [00:46:05] important.

Payman Langroudi: All right, so signage.

[TRANSITION]: And all that signage.

Anushika Brogan: Is really important. Um, I think brand [00:46:10] is really important. And that’s why, like, you know, people saying that we don’t go and change anything. I’d go and change everything. [00:46:15] Because for me, if I’m spending money in a practice, I want to know that, [00:46:20] like, you know, it’s a bigger company. I’m going to be looked after. This is the service you get. These [00:46:25] are the branded documents. You get all of that type of thing. I think that’s quite important. But I think people [00:46:30] are really important, like, you know, when you first come in. So reception is quite important. Although I’m [00:46:35] currently looking at reception receptionist free.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Kind [00:46:40] of that whole.

[TRANSITION]: System.

Anushika Brogan: Of just like, you know, QR code and you scan in. It’s I mean, [00:46:45] cost saving on a business is massive. So we’re looking at that model.

[TRANSITION]: So look.

Payman Langroudi: There [00:46:50] must be a big amount of training for all the people in the practice to [00:46:55] pull off this thing. That is high word of mouth. I mean, word of mouth is doesn’t [00:47:00] happen by accident, right? Yeah. So now now you get new people. Let’s say let’s [00:47:05] say you got rid of all the previous people. New people come in. Yeah. Where’s that training? And what [00:47:10] is it?

[TRANSITION]: How prescribed.

Anushika Brogan: We send them to local practices.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Anushika Brogan: So one practice would go. [00:47:15] Yeah. They go and shadow other practices. And other people come into this practice to run [00:47:20] this practice. And we kind of swing things around like that so that they kind of see how our practices [00:47:25] run and how deacon runs and what our standards are and all of that type of thing. And then it kind [00:47:30] of just they.

[TRANSITION]: Buddy up outside.

Payman Langroudi: Of the operational. I mean, of course they need the operational skills. Yeah. But [00:47:35] but in order to blow patient socks off, it’s not easy to do in a mixed environment, [00:47:40] right?

[TRANSITION]: Like, I mean.

Anushika Brogan: I can’t with, you know, I can’t guarantee that every receptionist [00:47:45] of mine is blowing people’s.

[TRANSITION]: Socks off. No, I know.

Payman Langroudi: But you’re saying you don’t advertise. You get word of mouth. Yeah. So [00:47:50] getting word of mouth takes people to really care. And really, you know, how do [00:47:55] you how do you put that into a place?

Anushika Brogan: But I think I think, you know, like it kind of flows through the whole [00:48:00] business. If people feel like they’re cared about, then they will, um, [00:48:05] you know, really, really make an effort in the practice that they if they feel like they’re valued, they will [00:48:10] then value their job and they feel like then they’re an ambassador of DiMera. So [00:48:15] it matters how they speak to patients and all that kind of thing. So I’m very against [00:48:20] that. It’s like what I was saying earlier, I’m quite against the kind of, you know, stick approach. I’m [00:48:25] more about, like, you know, coaching people and actually. Yeah, so we do we like listen to calls [00:48:30] and things. So we mystery shop our receptionist, just make sure they’re saying the right thing. And just if [00:48:35] they’re not, we just replay them and say, just listen to this call. What do.

[TRANSITION]: You think? Listening to.

Payman Langroudi: Calls is one of the most [00:48:40] important things you can.

[TRANSITION]: Do regularly.

Payman Langroudi: As well.

[TRANSITION]: That’s the other thing.

Anushika Brogan: And they don’t [00:48:45] know it’s happening, right? So it’s.

[TRANSITION]: Good.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you know, what we found is that you [00:48:50] listen to a random set of calls. Totally random. Don’t try. And it takes [00:48:55] a long time to listen to calls in the first place to get learning points. Yeah. Forget that. Just take 20 [00:49:00] calls in a row and just listen to those 20 calls. And if one person was on seven of them by mistake or [00:49:05] whatever, it doesn’t matter. Yeah. And have like a no blame approach to that conversation. [00:49:10] And then everyone saying what could what could have been better about that conversation. [00:49:15] Yeah. It’s a brilliant approach and it’s surprising how few people do it. I [00:49:20] find that from the customer care and sales part of enlighten [00:49:25] is probably the most valuable work we do.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, it’s it’s really important because actually [00:49:30] if you don’t, sometimes you don’t even realise how you come across yourself. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah. You know. [00:49:35]

Anushika Brogan: So I think it’s really, really valuable to listen to yourself.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, for sure.

Anushika Brogan: I’ll probably do that. As a [00:49:40] dentist. Shouldn’t I listen to myself talking and just see if I like, talk to patients properly? It’s [00:49:45] a bit of work to be done around that.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the finance side. So [00:49:50] you self-financed the first few, right? Or are you continuing to sell finance? What are you doing?

[TRANSITION]: Oh, [00:49:55] God. No.

Anushika Brogan: I mean, so I’ve got, um. So it was really interesting, actually, [00:50:00] because when I, when I bought my first practice, I took a bank loan. My dad guaranteed my [00:50:05] me.

[TRANSITION]: To my.

Anushika Brogan: Bank. Um, bank loan. And then second time I had [00:50:10] bought a house by then. So then I.

[TRANSITION]: Put the house up.

Anushika Brogan: Put the house up?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah. [00:50:15]

Anushika Brogan: And then by the time the third time, actually, that’s when I got into trouble, because [00:50:20] that’s when my mother in law said, oh, I’ll lend you the money and whatever anyway. And then by [00:50:25] then it just turned into a bit of a nightmare. But, um, I was really lucky because when I was [00:50:30] just at the end of my divorce, I met a lovely lady called Laura Graham who [00:50:35] worked in Metrobank, and she’d done corporate finance and all the rest of it. [00:50:40] And I just met her for a coffee one day because someone had recommended her. And, um, she [00:50:45] was like, I’m going to consolidate all your debt, and I’m going to put it all in one place and we’ll get you [00:50:50] more money so you can go out and buy practices. And she did everything for me, and I didn’t even know [00:50:55] what on earth she was doing, but I just trusted her that she would look after me because she knew what [00:51:00] my circumstance was and she knew that I needed help. And since like after that, [00:51:05] we just carried on growing because all my debt was consolidated. I actually didn’t have that much debt really, [00:51:10] compared to the value of the business. Um, and then as soon as I was [00:51:15] free again, I just bought quite a few more practices and just kind of chugged them like that. So. [00:51:20]

Payman Langroudi: So does she always come through? Like, when every single time. Or what happens? I mean, are [00:51:25] there times where she says, no, you can’t have that money?

Anushika Brogan: I’m not with her anymore.

[TRANSITION]: So she she left.

Anushika Brogan: So [00:51:30] she left Metrobank. And then I refinanced after that. So when she was when [00:51:35] I knew she was leaving, I only stayed there because she was there. Yeah. And then when she was leaving, I kind [00:51:40] of moved on. And I’m now with Santander and they’re equally good. They’re, you know, they’ve [00:51:45] been brilliant. So, um, but yeah, I mean, I had to again, that’s [00:51:50] a steep learning curve. No one actually tells you about how you have to really learn about how [00:51:55] EBITDA affects leverage and all of that kind of stuff. I mean, where do you learn that? Dental school, you don’t know. [00:52:00] So you have to kind of pick it up as you go along, don’t you? And just go, right, okay. I need to try and understand [00:52:05] this now.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, but look, the business.

Payman Langroudi: Model of a corporate, I’m going to call you [00:52:10] a corporate just because you are. But the business model of a corporate. Yeah. We all I [00:52:15] think many, many people understand that sort of the multiples being bigger for bigger [00:52:20] businesses.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t really understand why myself. But let’s move on. [00:52:25] The all the, there’s all these extra humans here. Area managers, all [00:52:30] these different people. Yeah. Yeah. So these are extra costs? Yeah. Yeah. Does all of that [00:52:35] have to be paid back from me? From suppliers on bulk? You know, on. Is that it? Is [00:52:40] that the whole. Is that the whole thing?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the whole business model.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: I mean, the only the only good [00:52:45] thing about obviously, the corporate model is you’ve got an area manager who is essentially managing [00:52:50] all of these practices, so you don’t have to do it. I know.

Payman Langroudi: But there’s all these extra costs. Like if [00:52:55] we take a single practice. Yeah. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You haven’t got other people to pay. [00:53:00]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah. And I think.

Payman Langroudi: So why should the Ebit be more for a multiple practice when there’s extra costs? [00:53:05]

Anushika Brogan: But the pinch point is the pinch point is when you’re at kind of 4 to 6 sites, [00:53:10] that is the pinch point.

[TRANSITION]: Because 4 to 5.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Well yeah. Kind [00:53:15] of between.

Anushika Brogan: But the problem is because when you’re at less than that you can go to each [00:53:20] site yourself. Yeah. And when you get bigger than that.

[TRANSITION]: That suddenly.

Anushika Brogan: Then. Yeah. That’s it. You need other [00:53:25] people because you just can’t manage. And it’s just too much work for one person. [00:53:30] So if you’re a small corporate, you can manage up to about 6 or 7. Then beyond that it just becomes [00:53:35] unmanageable. So tell.

Payman Langroudi: Me. Tell me about more growing pains. I love that sort of growing pains story. So [00:53:40] at six okay. What happened at 26?

[TRANSITION]: Like what other [00:53:45] growing pains.

Anushika Brogan: I mean, the thing the kinds of things that have happened. Oh, I could tell you so many [00:53:50] stories.

[TRANSITION]: Do you want some stories? Of course. 100. Oh, my.

Anushika Brogan: God, like the dramas [00:53:55] that happen when you catch. I mean, how do you. How do you like, how do you deal with, like, [00:54:00] who equips you to deal with when and like, a nurse and dentist are having [00:54:05] sex in your in your surgery? Who equips you with that? Like nobody. Like, do you know? Like you. [00:54:10]

[TRANSITION]: But it’s the kind.

Anushika Brogan: Of thing that happens to you as a practice owner.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Like.

Anushika Brogan: And you’re just [00:54:15] like, oh my God. Like, what do I do about this now? Do you know, like it’s really difficult to deal with. So [00:54:20] there’s stuff like that happens. Then you have things like people turn up to work on drugs. [00:54:25] Had that happen to me before?

[TRANSITION]: On drugs. On drugs? Yeah. Like.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. I mean, I didn’t [00:54:30] even know what was going on. I had to, like, I was just like, I was relying on my practice manager to tell me. I was [00:54:35] just like, I haven’t got a clue. But, you know, stuff like that happens. Um, you know, people [00:54:40] turn up and, you know, we’ve we had one recently. I mean, I can’t even talk about [00:54:45] it. But anyway, there’s all this type of thing that happens where often.

Payman Langroudi: Right, because there’s 200. [00:54:50]

[TRANSITION]: Dentists and often.

Payman Langroudi: How many other people? Sorry, 200.

[TRANSITION]: Dentists.

Anushika Brogan: We’ve got 400 staff, [00:54:55] over 400.

[TRANSITION]: Staff on top of the.

Payman Langroudi: 200 dentists.

[TRANSITION]: 600 humans. [00:55:00] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I take my hat off to you, I really do. And three kids and.

[TRANSITION]: Three children.

Anushika Brogan: And [00:55:05] the three children. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: So tell me about.

Payman Langroudi: Other growing pains, that other growing [00:55:10] pains, the difference between managing a 20 site place and a five site place [00:55:15] or a 40 site place.

Anushika Brogan: Do you know when you’ve got smaller, smaller numbers of sites? [00:55:20] You can keep your eye on things more, and when there’s lots of sites you just can’t, you have [00:55:25] to trust the people that you trust. And sometimes you can’t trust them. Like [00:55:30] I’ve had one time we found £10,000 of our money from [00:55:35] the till. Like it wasn’t getting banked. We were like, where is it? Where is it? It was in the shed.

[TRANSITION]: It was in [00:55:40] a.

Anushika Brogan: Carrier bag in the shed. We had to go and like, you know, look through the whole thing, but like, you know, you [00:55:45] but you can’t you can’t have control over every site. So you have to just, [00:55:50] like, be okay with losing control a little bit. I think. Whereas you tightly [00:55:55] control a smaller business.

Payman Langroudi: I’d imagine it’s really difficult to keep culture going through so many sites [00:56:00] though, you know, like for the for it to feel the same in each place.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: And [00:56:05] I think a lot of it depends on who the manager is.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Practice manager role is critical. [00:56:10] Absolutely critical I would say.

Payman Langroudi: Is there a hierarchy within [00:56:15] the practice? The practice manager in charge in the practice over the dentist or or is there a lead [00:56:20] dentist in each practice?

[TRANSITION]: No, we don’t.

Anushika Brogan: Have lead dentists. We have the practice manager is the person who organises [00:56:25] everything for the dentists.

Payman Langroudi: So that must be a friction point [00:56:30] though sometimes, right?

Anushika Brogan: No, because their role is to support the dentists. So [00:56:35] it’s not it’s not friction because I mean sometimes it becomes [00:56:40] friction. And then you have to make them understand that their job is to look after the dentist. [00:56:45] Right. So there’s no friction. There needs to be no friction. It’s really important that there is no friction. [00:56:50] So it does sometimes happen because you know dentists are unmanageable right? So most of them [00:56:55] most of them are. They don’t like being told what to do. They’re self-employed. They want [00:57:00] to do whatever they want to do. But I think that, you know, we are very understanding [00:57:05] as a business, like, you know, if someone has issues with childcare, issues with like, parents, [00:57:10] I’m very, very understanding of those things. And that’s what our managers have always been taught. But [00:57:15] if you take the Mickey out of us, out. So it’s [00:57:20] that kind of thing.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the Associate experience at DiMera. [00:57:25] How does that compare to the associate? Experience at an independent [00:57:30] or an or any other business? What would you say is your sort of value [00:57:35] add as an employer with dentists?

Anushika Brogan: I think the most important thing is that [00:57:40] because I’m still in practice, I really understand what they are going through. [00:57:45] So we just did a conversion to dentistry, right? So we just converted all of our [00:57:50] sites to dentistry from. So yeah. And at the time we were doing it, I [00:57:55] know it’s the right thing to do because everything has to be cloud based and it’s much easier for people to access. You can write [00:58:00] your notes at home. All of the good things that come with being on a cloud based system. But, [00:58:05] you know, obviously clinicians, any change, everyone’s going crazy [00:58:10] about it. And everyone like a supporter of us, were like, we’ve got to do this. It’s [00:58:15] really important. We have to do it. We have to do it, blah, blah, blah. But when I went into surgery and [00:58:20] I’m trying to create a treatment plan and I’ve got like 20 minutes to do it. And, you know, you don’t know what [00:58:25] you’re doing and all the rest of it.

[TRANSITION]: You felt the pain.

Anushika Brogan: I could feel that pain. And on our dentist WhatsApp [00:58:30] chat I was like, guys, this is hard, isn’t it? You know, like, I’m there with them, having those those [00:58:35] conversations with them so I know exactly what they’re going through. But also, I think when you’re [00:58:40] a clinician, things like, um, I notes and stuff like that that [00:58:45] are coming through that, that is the first thing I’ve gone ahead with and put into my business, [00:58:50] because how much time does that save us as clinicians? But not everybody’s kind of got the [00:58:55] same mindset because it’s expensive. But for me, time is money.

Payman Langroudi: So which [00:59:00] system do you go with?

Anushika Brogan: Um, we’re going with we’re trialling chairside at the moment.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah, [00:59:05] I really.

Anushika Brogan: Like the guys. It’s so.

[TRANSITION]: Nice. Yeah. Good people. Good.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Really good.

Payman Langroudi: So okay, so from [00:59:10] the associates perspective, the boss is a dentist, so understands their pain.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. Understands [00:59:15] their pain.

[TRANSITION]: What else?

Anushika Brogan: I think I think it’s that whole family feel [00:59:20] that, you know, I really want them to know that, you know, if they’ve got a problem, they can pick up the phone [00:59:25] and ring me. And a lot of them do, you know, they WhatsApp me, they call me, they talk to me. And, [00:59:30] you know, I want them to know that they’ve got a really supportive person at the top, not someone [00:59:35] who’s going to be like, oh, hang on a minute, you’re an hour late. What’s going, you know, blah, blah, blah. Life [00:59:40] happens, right? Like, I know enough of my life has happened. You’ve got [00:59:45] to be understanding to people’s circumstances because if someone’s a really good associate and then suddenly [00:59:50] they’re getting divorced, of course they’re not going to work at the same pace, but it’s a phase and they’re going [00:59:55] to go through it, and then they’re going to come out the other end, and then they’re going to be great again. But they should know that.

[TRANSITION]: Is [01:00:00] there with them.

Payman Langroudi: Is there a separate clinical lead apart from you?

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, I’ve got a clinical advisor. Yeah. [01:00:05] Who does all of the like all the regulation stuff.

[TRANSITION]: The regulations.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. Where you [01:00:10] have to read because I’m just like.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t like.

[TRANSITION]: Reading? Reading.

Anushika Brogan: I like listening to audiobooks, [01:00:15] not reading. So. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So that [01:00:20] person. So if someone, let’s say someone’s from overseas, you must get quite a lot of overseas dentists.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Someone’s [01:00:25] overseas. They’ve got that nightmare experience. Yeah. And they don’t know anything about [01:00:30] the NHS. Have you got a programme that they go through to understand the NHS?

Anushika Brogan: So, so [01:00:35] I do, I do a training session myself on NHS regulations that Nikolai also [01:00:40] joins with. So he’s our clinical advisor and he comes and does some of the [01:00:45] regulations. But we send a lot of documentation out to them as well about at any time, like things [01:00:50] change, like, you know, with Phosphonates anything like that, it goes out. We have a clinical huddle [01:00:55] that goes out every Friday. So any, any news that’s happened in the week goes out in [01:01:00] that. So it goes out on WhatsApp.

Payman Langroudi: Do you want to talk about your divorce? [01:01:05]

Anushika Brogan: Do you want to talk about my divorce? I do.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Anushika Brogan: Let’s [01:01:10] talk about my.

[TRANSITION]: Divorce aspect.

Payman Langroudi: Of of divorce that I’m interested with someone like you is [01:01:15] that this is almost like a in an Asian community. It’s like shame in it. Yeah. [01:01:20] Did you feel that?

Anushika Brogan: Uh, no. Not at the [01:01:25] point where I got divorced. I didn’t feel shame. No.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your advice? I mean, there [01:01:30] must be unhappy people listening to this. Yeah. Yeah. And that, that aspect. [01:01:35] I’m really interested in that aspect here, because I’m sure there’s a bunch of people not getting out [01:01:40] of relationships because of what that will look like.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: A lot of people. [01:01:45]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: And I think I actually only got married because of what it would look like at [01:01:50] the point where I was so far in that it would have looked, would have looked bad [01:01:55] for me to back out the.

Payman Langroudi: Families.

[TRANSITION]: And all that. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. So, like [01:02:00] my in-laws family and they are really nice people. Now, [01:02:05] in hindsight, I’m older. I understand them a little bit better. Like, you know, I [01:02:10] think when you’re 20 something years old and you’re immature and feisty, and I always feisty. [01:02:15] I bet you can imagine I was really feisty, as you wouldn’t want me [01:02:20] as a daughter in law. Really, because I’ve got such a strong head. But my mother in law also [01:02:25] had a really strong head. Like she was really strong minded and really controlling, and it [01:02:30] was probably really difficult for her because she just probably didn’t know how to handle me. She had two sons [01:02:35] who literally did everything that she asked of them. And then this daughter in-law comes along [01:02:40] and was just like, don’t really agree with you. You know, I’m very opinionated.

[TRANSITION]: So [01:02:45] have you got empathy.

Payman Langroudi: Now that if one of your sons comes back with a girl and.

[TRANSITION]: And. [01:02:50]

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, I think so, I think so.

[TRANSITION]: No, no.

Payman Langroudi: But empathy to her situation, to your mother in law’s situation. [01:02:55] And like, you know, when you say the sons did everything their mother wanted them to, your son [01:03:00] does everything you want him to do. My my sons say everything. You know what I mean. You’re not asking [01:03:05] him to do much, right?

Anushika Brogan: My my sons. I think I’ve brought them up really independently. I don’t [01:03:10] I was brought up really independently, and so, um, because my [01:03:15] parents always tried to make me think for myself rather than them [01:03:20] think for me, like, you know, it’s it’s, um. And that was the biggest difference was that [01:03:25] my, um, ex-husband’s family, they they very much do whatever [01:03:30] the parents say. Whereas in my family, it wasn’t like that. Yeah, yeah. And don’t question it. Whereas, you know, [01:03:35] if I, if I did something wrong, my, my sons have called me out 100%. They’d call me out.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm. [01:03:40]

Anushika Brogan: Which is the, which is. Right. Right. Like we’re all human and.

Payman Langroudi: You’re the youngest of how.

[TRANSITION]: Many? [01:03:45]

Anushika Brogan: Um, there’s only me. I had a brother, but he passed away.

[TRANSITION]: Oh. I’m sorry. Yeah. I’m [01:03:50] sorry. So.

Payman Langroudi: And you said your your your dad had shot, but your dad was a [01:03:55] biologist. He was.

[TRANSITION]: A chemist.

Payman Langroudi: Chemist? Chemist.

Anushika Brogan: He was a chemist.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. And he worked on [01:04:00] erythromycin.

Payman Langroudi: Was it erythromycin?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’m remembering that.

[TRANSITION]: Now. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: That’s [01:04:05] good. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. So.

Payman Langroudi: So that that sort of way that you were brought up [01:04:10] slightly different to the norm of like Asian families. Although I [01:04:15] spent a lot of time in Kent, we’re in Kent, where I spent my first 4 or 5 years as a dentist in [01:04:20] Kent. Did you? Yeah. And by mistake, actually. Um, but the [01:04:25] I, you know, Kentish people I found really interesting, man, that very, very sort of [01:04:30] straightforward, down to earth people. And I remember even then I was there to, you [01:04:35] know. Yeah. From around the, the late 90s, [01:04:40] early 2000, there were hardly anyone who wasn’t Kentish in Kent. [01:04:45]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I was in the big, bigger city. You Isle of Sheppey. Yeah. I was in Ashford and Folkestone. [01:04:50] Bigger, bigger towns. And yet there were very few.

[TRANSITION]: It’s hardly.

Payman Langroudi: A non-English.

[TRANSITION]: People.

Anushika Brogan: Hardly [01:04:55] any Asians, hardly any like other people. Even now, like, you know, it’s very. [01:05:00]

Payman Langroudi: Even now compared to, compared to the rest of the country.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah. Very English. So.

Payman Langroudi: So do you think that sort of that [01:05:05] being brought up in that environment, that suburban sort of Kentish Environment was [01:05:10] actually a factor that made your upbringing different too.

[TRANSITION]: Because a.

Payman Langroudi: Lot of Asian families, [01:05:15] there’s a comparison thing going.

[TRANSITION]: On. Yeah, definitely.

Anushika Brogan: And I had no cousins here, so [01:05:20] I had no family here. So actually we weren’t typically [01:05:25] Asian.

[TRANSITION]: I would say. Yeah, yeah.

Anushika Brogan: You know, I really had a big shock when I came to King’s and everyone [01:05:30] was Asian and it was really competitive. I was just like, what’s happened to me? I don’t know, I don’t know what’s going on. [01:05:35] So I found it really difficult adjusting.

Payman Langroudi: Is your mum a very strong [01:05:40] woman? Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Very, very strong woman. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: She is. [01:05:45]

Payman Langroudi: What were you like in Dental school? Were you like, what kind of like were you? The [01:05:50] study hard, top of your class type?

[TRANSITION]: No, no.

Anushika Brogan: I was always a [01:05:55] scrape through her.

[TRANSITION]: I two, me two.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah I didn’t, I didn’t.

[TRANSITION]: Is that.

Payman Langroudi: 2080 thing? [01:06:00]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah. 20% work or 80% party.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. I mean, [01:06:05] I’ve always like, you know, liked a good time, but I think I really struggled to know [01:06:10] who I was when I went to dental school. I was really happy at school, and when I [01:06:15] came to London I just felt like totally lost. I just felt like totally lost. Why? [01:06:20]

[TRANSITION]: Because. Because you went from the small.

Payman Langroudi: Town to a big town.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. I just didn’t fit in. I didn’t.

Anushika Brogan: I felt [01:06:25] like I always thought when I was in Kent that when I was with Asians, I would fit in. And [01:06:30] then when I came and was with Asians, I didn’t fit in. And it really just threw me. I [01:06:35] was just like, who am I? I’ve got no, like, identity. I don’t know where I, where I am. Like, [01:06:40] you know, and I didn’t make friends very easily. And then like, you know, my friendships I’ve, [01:06:45] I’ve got friends from school still that I’m still best friends with. I’ve got like my home [01:06:50] friends I’m still best friends with.

[TRANSITION]: They’re the best.

Anushika Brogan: They’re the best.

[TRANSITION]: Best friends. Definitely.

Anushika Brogan: But, um. [01:06:55]

[TRANSITION]: But not uni. Not uni, not uni. So it was pretty sad timing. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: I didn’t [01:07:00] have a good time. Didn’t have a good time at all.

[TRANSITION]: It’s weird. Just didn’t have a good time. Yeah. [01:07:05]

Anushika Brogan: Just didn’t have a good time. Just didn’t didn’t really find my crew. Like, you know who I really fitted in [01:07:10] with.

[TRANSITION]: And how.

Payman Langroudi: Long like, when was it that you felt like you found comfort, [01:07:15] peace, your voice, your. You know, I think.

Anushika Brogan: When I met my husband, my now [01:07:20] husband, I definitely feel like he has made me feel so much more secure in myself. [01:07:25] And, um, yeah, he’s kind of made me feel made [01:07:30] me see things differently about people quite a lot. He’s very grounded and he [01:07:35] was adopted. So he’s kind of like, you know, he’s had lots of drama in his own life, [01:07:40] but he’s very calm and rational. Just what I need because I’m chaotic. [01:07:45]

[TRANSITION]: So that’s how you would.

Payman Langroudi: How old were you when you met him?

Anushika Brogan: Um, in my 30s.

[TRANSITION]: Wow. [01:07:50]

Anushika Brogan: 30? 33?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, [01:07:55] 30. So I do.

Payman Langroudi: A podcast with Rhona as well. I don’t know if you’ve seen that one, but. But she always talks about [01:08:00] as a as a lady. I’m sure it’s not the same for everyone, but as a lady in your 30s, you [01:08:05] get sort of more confident.

[TRANSITION]: Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: And I sort of think of it as [01:08:10] like, you know, the Princess Di effect, you know, like she was much more attractive in her [01:08:15] 30s than she was when she was 21 or whatever she was when she got married.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Because I could see I didn’t have [01:08:20] confidence.

Anushika Brogan: I didn’t have, like so much confidence when I was younger, I think I think I was confident [01:08:25] at school. But when I got because.

Payman Langroudi: You were getting the grades or.

Anushika Brogan: Whatever. Yeah. I mean, yeah, [01:08:30] let’s not talk about my grades. Yeah. But you know, I [01:08:35] was confident because I just felt secure and I felt loved by my family and, you [01:08:40] know, all the rest of it. And when I came to uni, I just, I just, I don’t know, that period is just really unhappy period [01:08:45] for me in my head. So but you know, it passed.

[TRANSITION]: But do you think.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, do you think it’s [01:08:50] a woman thing? Like I think it is. Yeah I do. So now you’ve got a daughter. I’ve got a daughter. Yeah. Are [01:08:55] you addressing that somehow?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: I mean, I think I think it’s really difficult because [01:09:00] I think my, my mum was particularly hard on me when I was growing up, because my [01:09:05] brother was always more sensitive, and I was definitely the stronger out of the two of us.

[TRANSITION]: So she [01:09:10] the younger sometimes. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. And I think I’ll probably do it to my middle son as well. [01:09:15] I probably am a little bit harder on him because I think he can handle it.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. So. [01:09:20]

Anushika Brogan: Um, but with with my daughter, you know, I just both of us, my husband [01:09:25] and I both really try and tell her all the time that she’s beautiful and, you know, all of those things that girls [01:09:30] need to hear, I think. I think girls need to hear it.

Payman Langroudi: Really, really, really. Yeah. So [01:09:35] I think there’s a I’ve always worry about, you know, like confidence and arrogance. And [01:09:40] even though they’re nothing like each other. Yeah. They’re in the same kind of ballpark. [01:09:45]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I hear you.

Payman Langroudi: They’re very different things. Right. But I’ve got [01:09:50] I’ve got one friend like he picks up his kids, like, big time. And I think it’s very [01:09:55] much, you know, like saying that. And then I asked him about it and he [01:10:00] said. He said, look, the world will break them down. Your job is to build them up, which is another [01:10:05] great way of looking at it.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I think it’s.

Anushika Brogan: A great way of looking.

Payman Langroudi: At yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. But [01:10:10] I don’t know, I, I my wife says you want to be their friend, not their father. [01:10:15]

[TRANSITION]: You know, the.

Anushika Brogan: Only, the only thing I would say is that if you are too, if [01:10:20] you’re too soft on your children, they don’t have any.

[TRANSITION]: Resilience. True.

Anushika Brogan: And resilience [01:10:25] is so important. It’s key, isn’t it? Like with children. I’ve just [01:10:30] seen a few examples of that where kids are so supported by their parents [01:10:35] that then they just they can’t cope with life. And you’re like, come on, you need to be able to cope [01:10:40] because like, stuff happens, right? Stuff happens all the time.

Payman Langroudi: So your kids [01:10:45] are proper privileged kids, right? Would you would you agree with that?

Anushika Brogan: I [01:10:50] mean, in theory, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Of course. Yeah. Um, but have you ever had to do something [01:10:55] like in the bringing them up to sort of bring them back down to earth and.

[TRANSITION]: I.

Anushika Brogan: I [01:11:00] took a decision probably about 7 or 8 years ago where, [01:11:05] um, I felt like my kids were being a bit spoilt.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, [01:11:10] right.

Anushika Brogan: And so I really cut everything in terms of spending, because [01:11:15] I think that sometimes it’s really difficult in, in, in a position where, like you’re a dentist [01:11:20] or anything because you do have more money than a lot of people and it’s like, it’s great. But when [01:11:25] your kids just don’t understand the value of money, it’s actually quite dangerous. Yeah. So, [01:11:30] um, my kids, until they were and this is this is quite embarrassing. [01:11:35] But I’m going to tell you anyway, my kids, until they were about 18, were wearing like, Primark clothes and stuff [01:11:40] because I’m like, do you know what they need to understand that, you know, a lot of their friends [01:11:45] are wearing designer stuff and this and that. And I’m just like, when you earn it, you can wear it.

[TRANSITION]: Right? [01:11:50]

Anushika Brogan: Because actually, like, you know, it’s fine, but you [01:11:55] have to go and make your mark on the world and life. I’ve done my bit, but [01:12:00] you have to do that. Then come back at some point, because I think it’s really important that they have [01:12:05] self-pride and they have hunger themselves, because otherwise they’ll just say, all right, mum’s done it. It’s [01:12:10] all right. Dad’s done it, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Do you, for instance, make them go get a job? [01:12:15] Have they ever done a job?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Both of them have done job. Both of them have. My [01:12:20] youngest one was a bit wild, right. So he used to like, you know, bring his friends around. He’s [01:12:25] broken trampolines in the garden. He’s gone and earned the money back.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, yeah.

Anushika Brogan: It’s gone and [01:12:30] worked in a barber’s and earnt the money back to pay for the trampoline. Yeah, I’m.

[TRANSITION]: Quite like.

Anushika Brogan: That. Yeah, [01:12:35] yeah. They’re not just spoilt. Definitely not.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to darker days, [01:12:40] okay. On this pod, we like to talk about mistakes. Clinical [01:12:45] errors first.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Um, because, you know, black box [01:12:50] thinking. Let’s listen to that book. The plane crashes. No one looks [01:12:55] for blame.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Look at the black box and say this is what went wrong. Yeah. And they tell all [01:13:00] the pilots around the world this is what went wrong. So it doesn’t happen again.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But we don’t in in medical Dental [01:13:05] we hide our mistakes because blame is the key, that somehow people [01:13:10] we feel the system itself wants to blame someone. And so we tend to hide [01:13:15] our mistakes or not talk about them. Hence, I don’t learn from your mistake. You don’t learn from mine. The community [01:13:20] doesn’t learn from the mistakes.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So to buck that trend.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Any clinical. [01:13:25] What comes to mind when I say clinical error?

Anushika Brogan: I mean, once I, [01:13:30] I was very early on doing implants and I didn’t take the impression out early [01:13:35] enough and an impression got stuck in a patient’s mouth with an implant screw in it. That was.

[TRANSITION]: Bad. Oh, [01:13:40] nightmare.

Anushika Brogan: Oh, it was bad. I had to cut the impression tray, [01:13:45] cut the thing, and I was like, I just could not get it out. And it was so early [01:13:50] in my implant career. We’re talking like 15 years ago, and there was no one around doing [01:13:55] implants. I was there by myself. No one could help me. I had to just figure out how to do it. Luckily [01:14:00] I had a nice patient, but place implants?

[TRANSITION]: I used to really?

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, I [01:14:05] used to.

[TRANSITION]: Not anymore.

Payman Langroudi: So. Okay. You cut it off like they take a long, [01:14:10] long time to.

Anushika Brogan: Cut it off. Took me like, an hour to cut it off.

Payman Langroudi: What did the patient say?

[TRANSITION]: She was. [01:14:15]

Anushika Brogan: Fine. She’s like one of my regulars. Thank God. One of these that been there for 20 years. Like she was fine. [01:14:20] I just said to her, I am so sorry. I’m learning at the moment. But, you know, I mean, it must have been really [01:14:25] uncomfortable. I gave her a massive discount off her implant. I was like.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, it’s not okay.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [01:14:30] that’s a good one to learn from. But go on, just explain it to someone who’s listening. What would you now look out [01:14:35] for like undercuts?

[TRANSITION]: Is that the point?

Anushika Brogan: No, it was just.

[TRANSITION]: Because, you know.

Payman Langroudi: It went wrong. What didn’t [01:14:40] you see that you would see this time?

[TRANSITION]: So.

Anushika Brogan: So no. So basically, I’d not open the [01:14:45] door, you know, when you, um, so if you use the, uh, I think it’s open tray impression.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Right.

Anushika Brogan: So [01:14:50] you have to find the screw, don’t you?

[TRANSITION]: Yes. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: And so you have to find the screw so that you can unscrew [01:14:55] it.

[TRANSITION]: So I didn’t find the screw.

Anushika Brogan: Oh, right. And then the screw got stuck inside the impression. [01:15:00] And I had to literally cut it off. It took me ages to find the screw. And it set so [01:15:05] hard. And then it kept on setting and setting. It just got harder and harder. I was just like, oh, no. It [01:15:10] took me ages to actually unpick it. It was really bad.

[TRANSITION]: So that’s a goodie. I like that one. Yeah. [01:15:15] What about.

Payman Langroudi: Business mistake?

Anushika Brogan: Uh, business mistake [01:15:20] was going into business without understanding shareholding. I think if you are [01:15:25] ever doing shares with anybody, you need to understand what you’re getting yourself into because [01:15:30] there are too many instances. And actually, that was one of the things that [01:15:35] probably scared me about private equity as well, that, you know, they wanted 51% of my business, [01:15:40] but then majority shareholding, they can kick you out any time. So and I didn’t [01:15:45] I didn’t understand that at all. When I got into the into business with my ex mother in law, [01:15:50] she didn’t understand it.

Payman Langroudi: To check. Check your shareholding. [01:15:55]

[TRANSITION]: Check your shares. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: And just like, get some advice from [01:16:00] someone who can actually tell you, like a lawyer or someone like that who will actually tell you properly what you’re getting [01:16:05] yourself into. Get independent advice. Because it’s hard, especially with family, because you feel [01:16:10] like they should know and what they’re telling you is right. But actually you do need to understand it because [01:16:15] there’s consequences, right?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So darkest [01:16:20] day.

Anushika Brogan: Darkest day was when.

Payman Langroudi: Dental darkest day. [01:16:25] Of course.

Anushika Brogan: Dental. Yeah. Dental darkest day. I think I was right in the middle of [01:16:30] my, um, divorce. And it was really, really stressful. Like, really [01:16:35] stressful. There was there was points where I was just like, you know, and I’m really strong person, [01:16:40] I think. And I was, you know, very, very anxious. And I had to run a practice [01:16:45] managers meeting. At that time, all my practice managers used to come to my house for my practice managers [01:16:50] meeting, you know, used to have tea and coffee and entertain. I walked in, burst into [01:16:55] tears, and I was like, I can’t do this today. And just had to walk [01:17:00] back out again. And do you know what? All my managers were amazing. Some of them were still with me now, [01:17:05] but you know, those ones who’ve seen me in that kind [01:17:10] of environment and then seen like, you know, how things have changed. [01:17:15] You know, they’re great because they’ve been there the whole journey.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you seem [01:17:20] like a very together person, right?

[TRANSITION]: Mentally, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, like [01:17:25] to become as fit as you are, right? To run marathons and do Spartans and all that. It takes a [01:17:30] degree of training, right? Yeah. Have you had mental training? Have you had a counsellor? Have you [01:17:35] looked into.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I.

Anushika Brogan: Had I had therapy after my divorce.

[TRANSITION]: Did it help?

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, [01:17:40] it really helped a lot, a lot.

[TRANSITION]: And again, we.

Payman Langroudi: Need to normalise that.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, 100%. [01:17:45] You know, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: If it’s like, just like you go to a trainer. Yeah, to train [01:17:50] your muscles. Yeah. You need to train your brain. Yeah. And one thing that’s made a lot [01:17:55] of difference. Where I recommended therapy to a lot of people who I thought needed it. Right. I [01:18:00] wanted it to change it from need to want. Yeah. Number one and number two, [01:18:05] you know, it’s a there’s a spectrum right at the bottom of at the end of it. Let’s let’s [01:18:10] not beat about the bush. Loads of dentists kill themselves.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Loads [01:18:15] of dentists take their own lives.

[TRANSITION]: Yes. Yes they do.

Payman Langroudi: At the at the other full. Other end of it [01:18:20] is this super optimised dude. You know who’s doing like you like someone super [01:18:25] optimised here. And wherever you are in that, in that spectrum, [01:18:30] you can always move up. So. So, you know, the stigma of therapy [01:18:35] that is somehow incorrect. There’s a bunch of people, a bunch of CEOs [01:18:40] having training to become the best CEOs they can be, whatever it is. Optimisation.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, absolutely. And [01:18:45] I think I think the thing to remember is I wasn’t always like this. You know, I was I [01:18:50] was just a girl. And I came from the Isle of Sheppey. And actually, it’s been part of my journey where [01:18:55] I’ve always wanted to be a better version of myself. And whether that’s, you [01:19:00] know, training for something, whether it’s getting therapy, whether it’s pushing myself in business, like [01:19:05] I always want to be a better version of myself. And I think that that should be the goal, that if if [01:19:10] you feel like something’s not working out or something’s not right, you need to just try and work [01:19:15] out what you can do to make that better, you know? And it’s okay if it’s therapy, [01:19:20] if it’s medication, whatever it is, you know, you need to just go, I’ve got a problem, [01:19:25] but I can’t be the first person with this problem. Let me find the solution.

[TRANSITION]: You know [01:19:30] I like that.

Payman Langroudi: What what what sticks in your mind as the best course you went on or courses [01:19:35] that anything that sticks in your mind. As far as education.

Anushika Brogan: I really liked, um, I [01:19:40] did a course by a lab called frontier, um, back in the day. [01:19:45]

[TRANSITION]: And it was.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, they came here and did it.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Anushika Brogan: And so I’d [01:19:50] just randomly signed up to it.

[TRANSITION]: Veneers. Veneers. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: And it was during that period where everyone [01:19:55] was having veneers. But it was it was a small design course more than anything else. But it was [01:20:00] like a, you know, a program. It was brilliant. It really changed my life.

[TRANSITION]: Clicked for you.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, [01:20:05] really changed my clinical practice, really changed my clinical practice. And I felt so much more confident afterwards [01:20:10] doing stuff. Yeah, it was good. Really enjoyed.

[TRANSITION]: It.

Payman Langroudi: What about dentists [01:20:15] that you’ve looked up to?

[TRANSITION]: Um.

Anushika Brogan: Like clinicians. [01:20:20]

Payman Langroudi: Like I said, you’re one. You are one of my dental business heroes.

[TRANSITION]: You [01:20:25] really are. You really are.

Payman Langroudi: You Payman because of what you’ve achieved with. You know, I don’t [01:20:30] like this narrative about it’s harder for women than men outside of kids. When [01:20:35] you get kids into the equation. Well, yeah, of course it’s harder for women than men.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, but I think I think [01:20:40] it it definitely is. And I think it’s it’s more I think it’s difficult [01:20:45] for women generally. But I’m not a feminist. You know, I really [01:20:50] I think that, you know, if you want something bad enough, you can achieve it whether you’re a man or a woman. [01:20:55] And, you know, I like to give the men a run for their money rather than, you know, I don’t want [01:21:00] any special.

[TRANSITION]: Discounts for.

Anushika Brogan: Being a woman, you.

[TRANSITION]: Know?

Payman Langroudi: But you’ve had kids. What I’m saying is, you’re one of my heroes [01:21:05] in that respect.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Who are yours?

Payman Langroudi: And which dentist has inspired [01:21:10] you?

Anushika Brogan: I think probably the first practice owner I worked for. He inspired [01:21:15] me quite a lot. I think he’s probably, you know, the person who, like, [01:21:20] you know, pushed me on my journey.

Payman Langroudi: The value of that first boss. Right. The trajectory of that first [01:21:25] one. My first boss was an absolute hero. I’m still in touch with him. Wonderful guy. Yeah, there would be no enlightened [01:21:30] if it wasn’t for him. He had this thing about. Why not? Why not?

[TRANSITION]: Let’s just try it. Just do it. Just [01:21:35] try it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and, you know, we have to think about. You have to think about [01:21:40] this. The massive responsibility that you’ve got being the first boss of so many [01:21:45] dentists. Yeah, yeah. The first UK boss, let’s say. Yeah. Or the first boss. Right. [01:21:50] I’m sure you’re getting people out of it as well, right? Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah. Ft plus one. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Types. Massive [01:21:55] responsibility, man.

[TRANSITION]: It is, it is. Do you feel.

Payman Langroudi: The weight of it or.

[TRANSITION]: No. You don’t feel the weight of anything? No. [01:22:00]

Anushika Brogan: I love it. I’m a people’s person. So I feel like if I can [01:22:05] help people along the way, inspire them along the way, I’m really happy to do that.

Payman Langroudi: If [01:22:10] you were to bump into that, Anushka, who was in the middle of the divorce or [01:22:15] or in, in in dental school unhappy. What would [01:22:20] you say to her?

Anushika Brogan: Oh, [01:22:25] I don’t know. Because the thing is, like you can say, oh, [01:22:30] it’s all going to work out and you’ll be okay, but you don’t really believe it until it happens to you, [01:22:35] do you? You don’t. Like, I don’t think there are any words that you can say [01:22:40] to someone, you just have to kind of live it first. And actually, I needed to live that [01:22:45] trauma to make me stronger.

[TRANSITION]: So it’s very true.

Anushika Brogan: You know, there’s [01:22:50] not really any words that would console me at that point.

[TRANSITION]: I think it’s very true. [01:22:55]

Payman Langroudi: So it’s an interesting question, right, that I think this question is very interesting. Let’s say I know [01:23:00] you said you don’t want to, but let’s say some Russian billionaire comes and gives you $100 million to leave. [01:23:05] Yeah. And you leave. Yeah, yeah. What do you end up doing the day [01:23:10] after? Right. What is that thing now you said about travel? Yeah. I don’t know, maybe you and your husband [01:23:15] go travel and whatever it is in your case, like walk the trail across the [01:23:20] Peru Inca Trail or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Then let’s [01:23:25] say what happens the next day? The next day? The next day? Yeah. It generally ends up as something quite simple. [01:23:30] Yeah. A simple, peaceful life with your family and friends and all that. Yeah. [01:23:35] And it makes you wonder, right? The question of Why can’t you just do that thing? Like. [01:23:40] And what you said is quite interesting because sometimes it takes that journey, [01:23:45] the ups and downs of trials and tribulations, to selling it for £100 million, to finally get it out of your [01:23:50] system, that you are this successful sibling or whatever, whatever the particular [01:23:55] mess up is in your head. Yeah. To then be relaxed enough [01:24:00] to do this super simple thing like, I don’t know, some one guy might want to sit on [01:24:05] the beach and write poems.

Anushika Brogan: See, I feel like I would get bored. [01:24:10]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, well.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever the thing is.

[TRANSITION]: For you. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: See, I think I think even now, like. So we’ve [01:24:15] got an apartment in France, and, like, we go there quite a lot because it’s like. It’s like a haven. It’s.

[TRANSITION]: So [01:24:20] you said you.

Payman Langroudi: Run, run and all that.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: So, like, you can run there, you can mountain bike there, you can ski there. It’s [01:24:25] really peaceful and I love it. But after a few weeks I’m like, I want to come home. I need [01:24:30] a bit of, you know, excitement and passion and chaos, like, you know, where’s things going [01:24:35] wrong? And people calling me and.

[TRANSITION]: Like, you know.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve pondered on that for me. For me. I quite like sitting [01:24:40] by the pool with waiting for 2 or 3 emails. Yeah, I quite enjoyed that. [01:24:45]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I’m with my family.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe there’s a barbecue going on. There’s three important emails have to come in [01:24:50] that I’m that I’m trying to deal with. Yeah, that that combination of things to me [01:24:55] is quite. I’m kind of happy in that combination. Me too. But yeah, but you might be. No, you might be like, you want Monday morning, [01:25:00] meet the whole team. You know, some people are just more more into it [01:25:05] than others.

Anushika Brogan: I need a bit more of that and a bit more of that. So I [01:25:10] think I’m a bit more extreme.

[TRANSITION]: Maybe that’s what it is. Right, right. Yeah. Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:25:15] I really, really enjoyed this conversation and I really have, we’ve come [01:25:20] kind of to the end. Um we ended with the same questions. The [01:25:25] first one is a fantasy dinner party. Three guests [01:25:30] dead or alive. Who would you have.

Anushika Brogan: Um, And the [01:25:35] first one would definitely be my brother. Oh, I think, you know, I didn’t really get a chance to [01:25:40] talk to him and say everything that I wanted to say before [01:25:45] he passed away.

[TRANSITION]: When did he pass away?

Anushika Brogan: Passed away? Um, it would be 11 years this year. [01:25:50] Really? Suddenly had a brain haemorrhage. So that was quite sudden. And then, [01:25:55] um. Yeah, just kind of, I don’t know, just kind of slipped [01:26:00] really quickly. Um, he was really sweet, though. He’s really [01:26:05] sweet.

[TRANSITION]: So you had a.

Payman Langroudi: Good relationship with him before that.

[TRANSITION]: Happened? Yeah. I mean.

Anushika Brogan: When [01:26:10] we were younger, we didn’t. We fought.

[TRANSITION]: Like dogs.

Anushika Brogan: But as we got older, definitely. And, you know, one of [01:26:15] the I think, I think partly one of the things that is things that really pushed me along is [01:26:20] when the last visit that I made to him in hospital, the last time he spoke, [01:26:25] he had a nurse who was doing changing some dressings or something of his. And, [01:26:30] um, he pulled the curtain around and I said to him, I’m just [01:26:35] going to wait outside. And he was telling the nurse, have you seen my sister? That’s my sister outside. [01:26:40] She’s a business tycoon, like, you know, you could tell he was proud of me and he’d never [01:26:45] said it. He would never say it to my face. Not ever. Ever. But, you know, like that just carries me quite [01:26:50] a lot. But I just feel like I would love to talk to him again. I’d love to speak to him again. [01:26:55] It’s quite hard. So he’d be one second. One would be Elon Musk, because [01:27:00] I find the guy absolutely fascinating, I find him, I don’t know, people [01:27:05] love him or hate him, but I just find him fascinating and I just like to just spend an evening [01:27:10] talking to him and understanding him a little bit.

Payman Langroudi: He’s extraordinary.

Anushika Brogan: Extraordinary.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not the first time [01:27:15] he’s been invited to this.

[TRANSITION]: To this dinner party. No. He comes. He comes regularly.

Payman Langroudi: Regular [01:27:20] attendance in this sport.

Anushika Brogan: And the third one is Huberman. Have [01:27:25] you come across him? Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Of course.

Anushika Brogan: Really, really fascinating. I just find him because I’m interested [01:27:30] in, like, health and Optimisation. Yes, yes, I just think he’s amazing. [01:27:35] So I started listening.

[TRANSITION]: He’s very clever as well. Very clever. So clever. Yeah, yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Just even. [01:27:40] And he breaks everything down into like, you know, so people can understand it. I love that, I love that about.

[TRANSITION]: Did [01:27:45] you listen.

Payman Langroudi: To his Dental.

[TRANSITION]: Episode? No.

Payman Langroudi: He’s done a whole episode on Dental. Has he?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I haven’t yet.

Anushika Brogan: I [01:27:50] haven’t yet. I’ve only just like, you know, just started listening to all his stuff because I don’t get a lot of time, so. But I find him [01:27:55] fascinating because he’s doing a lot of stuff on, you know, how alcohol affects the body, how sleep and, [01:28:00] you know, all of that kind of stuff is really interesting, I like that.

[TRANSITION]: I know, I.

Payman Langroudi: Know, this doesn’t happen often [01:28:05] yet, but if you had half a day to yourself, what would you.

[TRANSITION]: Do? Go shopping. Oh, really? Every time. Really? [01:28:10]

Payman Langroudi: Is that your release?

[TRANSITION]: Oh, I love shopping. Is that your guilty pleasure?

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. Yeah, I love shopping. I’m a shopaholic. [01:28:15] Love it.

Payman Langroudi: Final question. It’s [01:28:20] a deathbed question. You’re on your deathbed, surrounded [01:28:25] by everyone you love. What are three pieces [01:28:30] of advice you’d leave for them?

Anushika Brogan: Um. [01:28:35] I suppose it would be. [01:28:40] Don’t forget to work hard. That’d be one thing. Work hard. I think it’s really [01:28:45] important in life to work hard and have focus. Um, but I [01:28:50] think family are really important for me. I think always my family [01:28:55] have been so important, and they still are. And I think that that would be the [01:29:00] most important thing for me, um, to pass on to them as a family value. [01:29:05] Like, you know, just make sure you prioritise your family over everything else. Um, [01:29:10] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But your ex was prioritising his family over everything else that was [01:29:15] causing the problem.

Anushika Brogan: I think it your nucleus, [01:29:20] as in, like your immediate family. Like, you know, your nucleus should be, you know. So [01:29:25] if you’re married, then.

[TRANSITION]: Your your nuclear family. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Your nuclear family. Like, you know, my son’s got a girlfriend. Like I [01:29:30] want him to prioritise her. Doesn’t need to worry about me. He needs to prioritise her. She should be the most important person [01:29:35] in his life.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, okay.

[TRANSITION]: Um. Got it. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: That. And then. [01:29:40] And not like, I feel like it’s really important not to let [01:29:45] people down. I feel like, you know, if someone relies.

[TRANSITION]: On you, be reliable.

Anushika Brogan: Trust [01:29:50] you. Yeah. It’s important not to let people down.

Payman Langroudi: See, that’s an interesting [01:29:55] one. Yeah, because it implies you’ve got a choice in the matter and then you choose to be reliable. [01:30:00] Yeah, but some people just are and some people just aren’t. And [01:30:05] sometimes it’s not their choice.

Anushika Brogan: I disagree, [01:30:10] I think you you can choose to be reliable. Why do you think people can’t be reliable?

Payman Langroudi: Some people just [01:30:15] are and some people just aren’t. I think my two kids, you know, the.

Anushika Brogan: Children are [01:30:20] not children, but.

[TRANSITION]: Children.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a character, character type I.

Anushika Brogan: But I think [01:30:25] you can, you can, You can try and be reliable.

[TRANSITION]: Try and be.

Payman Langroudi: More reliable [01:30:30] than the day before.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, you should.

Anushika Brogan: Try and be. And I think, like, you know, you have to be taught [01:30:35] to be reliable. You do have to be taught to be reliable. But like, you know, if someone needs you, you show up, right? [01:30:40] Like, you know, my.

[TRANSITION]: Dad, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Really interesting, right? Because the three things that you’re saying are all [01:30:45] things that are outside yourself. Yeah. You know, look out for family, be [01:30:50] reliable, kind of work hard. Okay. Work hard. But it’s it [01:30:55] seems to me like you get most of your pleasure from serving others. [01:31:00]

[TRANSITION]: Maybe.

Anushika Brogan: Maybe I [01:31:05] spend a lot of time serving others. I think, um.

Payman Langroudi: I think [01:31:10] it’s amazing to be around, right? It’s amazing to have that person in your life. But, you know, there [01:31:15] is a downside to that as well, to bear in mind, to bear in mind. Yeah, but [01:31:20] you know what they call it people pleasing or whatever it is.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, I think I’ll have my time. [01:31:25] I think it’s just not right now. I think that at the moment I’m in that sandwich [01:31:30] kind of era where, you know, I’ve got kids who need me, I’ve got parents.

[TRANSITION]: Who need me. You look.

Payman Langroudi: Super [01:31:35] happy. So there’s no as long as you’re happy, everything else is happy. Everything else can, can, can [01:31:40] piss off, right?

[TRANSITION]: Long as you’re happy.

Anushika Brogan: But I think. I think you know, my, my, like I think [01:31:45] it’s about balance. And I think it’s about like, you know, prioritising balance at the moment. Like, my parents really [01:31:50] need me right now. So my priority is to be there for my parents. You know, my dad’s elderly, like, [01:31:55] you know, my mom’s having a hard time because he’s like, not very well. That’s my priority right now. [01:32:00] And actually, if I spend a little bit less time with my kids right now, they have to understand because nanny [01:32:05] and nanny need me, you know? So it’s about balance. And I think for me, [01:32:10] being reliable, for whether it’s my children, whether it’s my kids, whether it’s my best friends, like, you know, [01:32:15] be a reliable person, I think. And if you’re not reliable, I think people just I don’t know. That’s [01:32:20] not the values I would like to impart on my children.

[TRANSITION]: That was the question. That was the.

Payman Langroudi: Question. [01:32:25] That was the question. I’ve really enjoyed it. I’ve really enjoyed it. I’ve learnt loads again. [01:32:30]

[TRANSITION]: Have you?

Payman Langroudi: I really have. I really have. You’re an enigma. Really inspirational.

[TRANSITION]: Thank [01:32:35] you so much. Thank you so much for coming all the way. Thank you for having me.

Anushika Brogan: It’s been wonderful.

[VOICE]: This [01:32:40] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one [01:32:45] on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:32:50] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:32:55] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [01:33:00] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve [01:33:05] had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. [01:33:10]

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [01:33:15] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. [01:33:20] Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.