Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by Enlightened Smiles. Enlighten is the world’s most [00:00:05] effective teeth whitening treatment. We’ve treated well over half a million patients across 11 countries [00:00:10] now, so if you want to swap unpredictable, underwhelming results with delighted [00:00:15] patients and higher margins enlightened smiles, get yourself trained. Get your team trained. Let’s get to the pod. [00:00:20]

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get to go [00:00:30] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:00:40]

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Nyree Whitley onto [00:00:45] the podcast. Nyree is Chief Clinical Officer at my dentist. Um, [00:00:50] formerly I’d been with the business for at least ten years. Yeah, [00:00:55] yeah. Um, the top dentist in the group? I’m [00:01:00] going to get to your backstory and all that, but sometimes I’ve got a burning question. Um, [00:01:05] what? What? What does the what are the misconceptions? [00:01:10] The most prominent ones of corporate dentistry [00:01:15] by the profession?

Nyree Whitley: Undoubtedly, the profession still thinks [00:01:20] that the corporate is run similar to the military. And we tell people what to do and they don’t [00:01:25] recognise that. It’s a collaborative, supportive environment. And that is the biggest misconception [00:01:30] around corporate corporates. And I think not just talking for ourselves, but I think all of the corporates [00:01:35] that now exist in the UK, um, that couldn’t be further from the truth.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [00:01:40] But you know, from the supplier perspective, for instance. Yeah, yeah. Um, [00:01:45] there are different corporates, right? So, so some of them, they, they absolutely [00:01:50] pride themselves on full clinical freedom. Yeah. And from the supplier perspective, that’s quite hard [00:01:55] for us. Yeah. Yeah. But my dentist isn’t one of those. My, my. My dentist [00:02:00] is actually, from the supplier perspective, much better insomuch as you guys become tactical [00:02:05] about a particular treatment modality or whatever. And then you do get that through [00:02:10] your practices somehow. So you do tell people what to do in some respect, right?

Nyree Whitley: Is that [00:02:15] no, we support them. So we have a look at what is, you know, what are the Leaders where [00:02:20] we have strategic partnerships with people such as yourselves? Yeah. Such as for [00:02:25] example, in the implant world such as Invisalign and Clearcorrect are aligned around aligners. [00:02:30] We go to who we perceive to be and who our clinicians perceive to be the best [00:02:35] in class. We will then work with them to work with our clinicians, to do [00:02:40] the appropriate engagement and training, in order that they understand the products effectively, to be able [00:02:45] to deliver the best care to our patients. But our clinicians still choose [00:02:50] whether they want to actually utilise those materials, those products or not. Uh, [00:02:55] we do have preferred ranges, but we also allow our clinicians [00:03:00] to put in clinical requests for any material that they want and as long as they can [00:03:05] evidence to us why. And is it clinically appropriate then [00:03:10] we would approve that.

Payman Langroudi: You know, when I think about corporate density, I’ve had Mark Allen from [00:03:15] Bupa sitting where you’re sitting right now. And when I think about corporate dentistry, [00:03:20] the sort of tension that I have with it is that a lot [00:03:25] of success in dentistry comes from on the ground, very nuanced [00:03:30] issues that happen within a practice. Um, so [00:03:35] the best approach might be to, you know, let the practice get on with [00:03:40] it and let whoever’s making those decisions within the practice at a regional [00:03:45] level get on with it and make changes without having to, you know, go through the [00:03:50] whole system. But at the same time, when you have a brand like Bupa or [00:03:55] or my dentist. The brand needs to stand for something. Yeah. And so that tension [00:04:00] between what a single practice can do and what anyone, [00:04:05] the whole group can do. Obviously you guys, that’s that’s your whole job, right? Your whole job. How [00:04:10] do you how do you negotiate that sort of tension?

Nyree Whitley: There are some aspects of practices [00:04:15] that would be cookie cutter if you like. And that would be compliance, for example. Yeah. Because [00:04:20] compliance has to be clearly, absolutely spot on regardless of what type of practice, where [00:04:25] it is, which principality it is, whether it provides NHS or private care. So that kind of thing, [00:04:30] yes, we absolutely have our own kind of, you know, my comply, which is how we [00:04:35] help our practice managers to ensure they have all the right regulatory compliance. But there are other [00:04:40] aspects of it where we will absolutely give our practice managers autonomy [00:04:45] to look at the practice and to work with their area development managers. That’s their [00:04:50] operational leader and with their clinical development advisor, which is their is their clinical leader in that area, [00:04:55] to work out what is best for each clinician. A key part of a practice manager’s [00:05:00] job is one to ones with clinicians on a regular basis. And that [00:05:05] is very, very important because no practice is exactly the same, because no individuals [00:05:10] are exactly the same. And it’s really interesting because when we do a every year, [00:05:15] you know, on an annual basis, we do a survey, we do it for our employees, but we [00:05:20] do it for our self employed clinicians as well. Great place to practice. And what they always say [00:05:25] every single year without fail is the most important thing to them in their practice [00:05:30] is the practice manager and the team.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So you are the [00:05:35] top dentist in the group? Yeah. So does that mean you sit on the board? [00:05:40]

Nyree Whitley: I do, I sit on the full board and I sit on the executive board.

Payman Langroudi: So, [00:05:45] you know, obviously every decision they make, they’re going to have to run that through a clinical person. [00:05:50] Right. Correct. So are you having to having to make decisions where you know, you’re [00:05:55] you’re actually torn between what you can do and what you should do and the, [00:06:00] you know, the corporate goals and the clinical goals. Do they sometimes come attention?

Nyree Whitley: They [00:06:05] do because we’re a business, right? And like any independent practice is a business. If it didn’t make money, [00:06:10] it would go bust and it would close down. So we are exactly the same. So there is that tension, [00:06:15] and there is nothing wrong or ugly about making a profit if [00:06:20] it’s done because you’ve provided good quality care to your patients ultimately, [00:06:25] and that is always at the forefront of my mind. Clearly, as a registered practising clinician [00:06:30] and at the whole of my team, if it’s the right thing for our patients and our dentists [00:06:35] and as an output, one of those outputs is that it makes money as well, [00:06:40] then, you know, that’s a good business decision. And whilst you say, you know, am [00:06:45] I the top dentist and I’m making the decisions, clearly I sit at that position. But we very, [00:06:50] very much work as a collaborative team, and that’s collaboratively, not [00:06:55] just me with a whole of my clinical team. I don’t run the business by myself. [00:07:00] My teams run the business and things for me. I help to support them in what they do. But [00:07:05] we are very much work collaboratively with operations. It is literally like a mum and [00:07:10] dad relationship.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I bet, I bet, but so you must have, you know, [00:07:15] you’ve recently had an incoming new CEO.

Nyree Whitley: We have. He was [00:07:20] our existing CFO.

Payman Langroudi: Well that’s right. Yeah. So you must have when new people come in [00:07:25] at senior management level. Yeah. There must be an element of you have to sort of educate [00:07:30] them on dentistry.

Nyree Whitley: It’s a clinical business first and foremost. And that’s what [00:07:35] they need to understand.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, exactly. So so what are the what are the things that some sometimes some some [00:07:40] someone’s asked for. That is clearly from a clinical perspective it just is ridiculous. [00:07:45] But people you know, let’s say the guys run a chain of DIY stores now he’s running my dentist [00:07:50] and they sometimes think it’s just fully transferable. What kind of things have [00:07:55] senior management said to you in the past, over your last ten years? A lot that you’ve had to modulate. [00:08:00]

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, a long time ago. So when I first joined the business, um, I joined [00:08:05] the business through acquisition. I was with a I was the assistant clinical director for a small corporate, [00:08:10] and we were acquired by. Yeah. That’s right. And as it was then, um, and [00:08:15] one of my first experiences of some direct, [00:08:20] not direct is some suggestions that had come down from the private equity house that owned [00:08:25] us at the time. So not our executive board from the private equity house was, why [00:08:30] can’t you get all dentists to take exactly the same time for each procedure? Yeah, [00:08:35] I did just that. Yeah, I did just that. And that’s where it’s a lack of understanding. Yeah, [00:08:40] we did have one suggestion once as well from a private equity house. Buy one, get one free on fillings. Yeah, [00:08:45] I can see where they’re Going with it, but it’s like, oh, [00:08:50] Mrs. Jones, you need a filling. Do you want another one free?

Payman Langroudi: The funny thing, anytime I’ve spoken to a banker or a private [00:08:55] equity person, they say something like, uh, what’s the average number of teeth whitening treatments a [00:09:00] dentist does in a week? And they’ll they’ll throw they’ll throw it out. They’ll say something [00:09:05] like, I don’t know, do they do 3 or 4 a day each? And you have to go back and say, actually, [00:09:10] you know, it’s more like, you know, if you’re lucky, 3 or 4 a month, right?

Nyree Whitley: It depends who comes in your door. [00:09:15] Right? I mean, if you’ve got a load of edentulous patients, because historically that’s the kind of list that you develop, [00:09:20] you were on the ground floor and the only one that could see the elderly ones. You’re really not going to do much whitening in comparison [00:09:25] to your colleague, are you?

Payman Langroudi: What about what about if someone’s asked a question from that position of not knowing [00:09:30] enough about it, and it turned out to be a really good question, you [00:09:35] know, because sometimes we’re so in it that we sort of get used to, you know, why shouldn’t [00:09:40] there be a buy one, get one free for you? You know what I mean? Yeah. Have there been any suggestions [00:09:45] like that? Where, where at first it seemed left field, but actually it turned out to be a brilliant suggestion. [00:09:50]

Nyree Whitley: Probably on my options brand actually, as was, which [00:09:55] is that affordable?

Payman Langroudi: I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry. What an amateur.

Nyree Whitley: It [00:10:00] wasn’t me.

Payman Langroudi: Go ahead. Um. Which [00:10:05] options? Which is what are affordable?

Nyree Whitley: Kind of.

Payman Langroudi: Affordable? Private.

Nyree Whitley: Affordable dentistry. Yeah. Affordable. Private. [00:10:10] So we effectively have a good, better, best options [00:10:15] within the business. So you know we have the NHS, we have my options [00:10:20] which are affordable. And then we have more premium private if you like, which is more of those aesthetic [00:10:25] type products. Um, so when they first suggested bringing that in, [00:10:30] it was something where we kind of went, oh, how does that work, you know, as a clinical team. [00:10:35] But actually, you know, it was a fantastic offering for our patients and actually for our clinicians [00:10:40] because it’s transparent pricing for the patients. It’s transparent for the clinicians [00:10:45] as well. A lot of clinicians, particularly less experienced clinicians, [00:10:50] really struggle around the financial conversations with patients, and they don’t always feel [00:10:55] confident in terms of their ability to deliver private dentistry. So [00:11:00] that kind of gives them that area where they feel a safe space, because there is a transparent price [00:11:05] list and they feel as though, you know, the charges are not, um, [00:11:10] very expensive in comparison to the NHS. So it really [00:11:15] does help them get on the ladder with regard to delivering private treatment.

Payman Langroudi: But what was it about the suggestion [00:11:20] initially that sounded like it wasn’t a good idea? The fact that the three tiers instead of.

Nyree Whitley: Three tiers might confuse [00:11:25] people, how patients can understand it, how dentists can understand it. It’s a fixed [00:11:30] pricing scheme and they’re self-employed, right clinicians so they can choose what they [00:11:35] wish to charge. Effectively. Yeah. But we have to say from because as [00:11:40] you well know, as a clinician, there are some scenarios where, you know, a D.O. is not a D.O. in Deo in all patients. Is it? [00:11:45] Can take you a different amount of time and different complexity. Um, so they do still have [00:11:50] that latitude, but we just wondered how they would understand having three [00:11:55] tiers of, you know, offerings to give patients. But it was, uh, unanimously, [00:12:00] positively accepted by our clinicians and is still we don’t always refer it as to [00:12:05] my options, necessarily in the same way now, but it’s our affordable private offering to patients, and both [00:12:10] patients and clinicians really like it.

Payman Langroudi: And is it like an escalator that they [00:12:15] go NHS options and then fully private.

Nyree Whitley: It’s different. I mean points of [00:12:20] entry for patients is usually as an NHS patient or often as a my options [00:12:25] patient if they’re not currently taking on any NHS patients because they don’t have any UDA, you [00:12:30] know, availability and they then move within the tiers. So an NHS [00:12:35] patient can have a my options filling or they can have a full private filling if they wish. And similarly my [00:12:40] options, whilst they wouldn’t backtrack to go on to the NHS unless they said I want to go [00:12:45] on your NHS waiting list effectively, but they can often upgrade to elements of [00:12:50] private treatment.

Payman Langroudi: How does that conversation go with the patient? We’ve got this D.O. [00:12:55] to do.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: He’s an NHS patient. What what option does [00:13:00] he got? Like what? How do you how do they differentiate between the three different options for that filling. [00:13:05]

Nyree Whitley: They will differentiate on the basis of clinical need its wants and needs. So [00:13:10] it’s around clinical need. And it’s like but you may wish to consider these other alternatives that are not [00:13:15] clinically necessary, but you may wish to upgrade in terms of the aesthetics. For [00:13:20] example, you know, like a fully layered composite with staining for a molar as a full private, maybe [00:13:25] it would still be an amalgam that was the most clinically appropriate material currently, while we’re still [00:13:30] allowed to utilise it in a molar tooth. Or it may well be that, you know, some kind [00:13:35] of composite or inlay or inlay may be a, you know, a more options alternative [00:13:40] each. It’s difficult to put it into single words because obviously each scenario is different. That [00:13:45] is challenging, I think, for clinicians at all times when you’re seeing an NHS patient. So [00:13:50] forget the middle tier. It’s difficult anyway, isn’t it? Particularly when they get told, you know, they’ll [00:13:55] call up the NHS, BSA and somebody on the end of the line will tell them you can have everything on the NHS. [00:14:00] And then they go into practice and that’s their expectation. That’s a challenging conversation.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:14:05] you must have more NHS patients than anyone else [00:14:10] right.

Nyree Whitley: 4 million patients, 8 million appointments a year.

Payman Langroudi: 4 million patients. [00:14:15] Wow. That’s extraordinary. Because is it still true that [00:14:20] half the population doesn’t have a dentist?

Nyree Whitley: Approximately. Yeah. I mean, MPP has made [00:14:25] for us. I know there’s been a lot of conversations around MPP, and at the moment, everything is [00:14:30] still up in the air with regard to whether the new government will renew it, because it is due to finish at the end of March. [00:14:35] So if there’s no decision, it just ends. Certainly for us as a business, It’s [00:14:40] made a big difference in terms of our clinicians willingness to take on new patients, because there [00:14:45] were those additional financial. Let’s be honest, um, um, contributions [00:14:50] made to them. So we’ve seen a significant uptick in our clinicians [00:14:55] willingness to take on new patients. And a big thing that we talk to our [00:15:00] clinicians about is a patient to patient. You know, when you and I qualified, [00:15:05] I didn’t qualify as an NHS dentist. I qualified as a dentist. Being able to provide all aspects of care, [00:15:10] unless it was a specialised area that you needed to do further training in. And a patient is the same. So [00:15:15] actually it doesn’t matter what their point of entry is, you absolutely [00:15:20] have to and should give them all possible options, and then it’s the patient’s prerogative [00:15:25] to decide as long as something is clinically appropriate for them, which one of those options [00:15:30] that they take. And I think too many clinicians are ingrained in the [00:15:35] old mindset of, you know, an NHS patient is different. I still think in the UK [00:15:40] a lot of patients expect their point of entry to be NHS. Once they’ve had [00:15:45] that NHS point of entry, they’re really happy to consider all appropriate options that are then available [00:15:50] to them. But they want to be an NHS patient.

Payman Langroudi: But I [00:15:55] mean 4 million. Yeah. If let’s imagine half the population don’t have a dentist. [00:16:00] That’s I mean, it’s extraordinary. It’s one [00:16:05] in 8 or 9 NHS patients is a mydentist [00:16:10] patient.

Nyree Whitley: Very possibly some of those. A proportion of those will be private only. But it’s [00:16:15] a very small proportion, you know comparatively.

Payman Langroudi: Do you have I mean you must have numbers regarding overall [00:16:20] the corporates, what percentage of the market are corporate.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, we’re about 6%. [00:16:25]

Payman Langroudi: All corporates. Aha. And so in a way you guys, [00:16:30] the corporates in general are setting the agenda in NHS.

Nyree Whitley: So [00:16:35] we are 6% dentists. Dentist 6%, 6% of NHS contracts.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So. So [00:16:40] if you put them all together, maybe ten, 15, 15 is corporate. So so setting [00:16:45] the agenda regarding the NHS. And so when you see the decline of the [00:16:50] NHS, are you sort of all of you scrambling to do more private [00:16:55] now. Like all associates are scrambling to do more private. Or are you hopeful [00:17:00] for the NHS to continue and for you to be able to thrive as a business? [00:17:05]

Nyree Whitley: We are. Our revenue now in the business is 5050 private [00:17:10] NHS that’s revenue. Yeah. Um, my personal feeling [00:17:15] and that of certainly all of the clinical team and, and of the business is that I [00:17:20] think that every single person in the UK should have access to NHS dental [00:17:25] care for at least urgent and immediate needs. I don’t think anybody should [00:17:30] be left in pain. I think that’s appalling that people can’t get treatment. And on that [00:17:35] basis we are. I think the NHS still provides a great level of service for patients. [00:17:40] And so we still very much believe in the NHS and we are that [00:17:45] 5050 split is a good split for us. We wouldn’t really look to [00:17:50] move out any more NHS to replace.

Payman Langroudi: How is that reflected in the sort of the time people [00:17:55] spend? Is it 80% of NHS, 20% private.

Nyree Whitley: About 70, 30.

Payman Langroudi: 70, [00:18:00] 30.

Nyree Whitley: And it depends on clinicians. You know, clinicians experience with regard [00:18:05] to how much you know, how much private they will do. And clearly we have some specialist implant [00:18:10] surgeons who are 100% private. So.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. And as [00:18:15] far as sort of the org chart goes.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you said you go [00:18:20] you’re in all the board meetings, the big board meetings, but in your particular team. [00:18:25] So your particular team is the clinical kind of team. Yeah. How many people are there between [00:18:30] you and the associate working in the practice.

Nyree Whitley: Okay, [00:18:35] so as far as the clinical team is concerned, because I look after some other areas of the business, but let’s just [00:18:40] talk clinical. So I have clinical directors and I have four [00:18:45] regional and one orthodontic clinical director. Okay. I then have [00:18:50] a central clinical director who doesn’t deal, who deals more with projects and things centrally. [00:18:55] So let’s just talk about on the in the field teams. There are five of them. They have [00:19:00] areas within their regions. And for each area they have what’s called [00:19:05] a clinical development advisor, who is a practising clinician that’s working in our business. And [00:19:10] they work anything between 1 and 3 days in the business supporting our clinicians and [00:19:15] they week per week, and they integrate.

Payman Langroudi: The clinical directors aren’t working as [00:19:20] dentists in the business, are they? As well.

Nyree Whitley: But not all of them are. But most [00:19:25] of them do a degree of clinical work still. But our Cdas are doing usually [00:19:30] at least 2 or 3 days of clinical work still.

Payman Langroudi: And then the next level is the associate. Yeah. And [00:19:35] then how how do you when, when an associate has an issue. Yeah. How does [00:19:40] he go to your clinical team or does he go to the manage management team. Like I guess his [00:19:45] first port of call is his practice manager.

Nyree Whitley: Manager would be the first port of call, but not if it was around a clinical [00:19:50] issue. So our Cdas clinical development advisors, they know all of their clinicians [00:19:55] in their area. They’re really important relationships. So they have their telephone numbers. They have [00:20:00] regular WhatsApp groups webinars and things that they have with them. So [00:20:05] if it’s anything clinically related or if it’s something operational [00:20:10] that they don’t feel happy with the way that the practice manager has dealt with it, then they [00:20:15] will contact their clinical development advisor.

Payman Langroudi: If I if I dropped [00:20:20] 10 million, £10 million. Yeah. Extra cash. Yeah. Into the business [00:20:25] and said you had to spend it. Yeah. What would you spend it on?

Nyree Whitley: More clinical development advisors. [00:20:30]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. And it’s something that we are currently [00:20:35] looking at. We’re reviewing. We have about 45 of them in the business at the moment, and that equates [00:20:40] to about 72 days. Um, but we have 3500 clinicians.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:20:45] 5000.

Nyree Whitley: Clinicians.

Payman Langroudi: That include hygienists as [00:20:50] well.

Nyree Whitley: Dentists, dentists, 3500 dentists between [00:20:55] 32 and 35. It fluctuates. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Wow. It’s a lot. That’s a lot [00:21:00] of humans, isn’t it? That’s a.

Nyree Whitley: Lot.

Payman Langroudi: Of humans. Dentists are very difficult to manage.

Nyree Whitley: No. Well, we’re used to making [00:21:05] all our own decisions. That’s what we’re taught to do in dental school, you know? We are. Hopefully [00:21:10] most of us are relatively intelligent by virtue of being able to get into dental school. [00:21:15] Maybe not. We’ve got common sense, but relatively intelligent. Um, so that’s why it’s a [00:21:20] relationship. And of course, remember, there is that piece of probably 97% [00:21:25] of ours are self-employed as well. We have a few employed employ clinicians. [00:21:30] But, you know, not many.

Payman Langroudi: But that must be something. You have to train outsiders on the idea that [00:21:35] dentists are difficult to manage. And both you’re right, the self-employed nature [00:21:40] of it causes many issues in itself.

Nyree Whitley: Even recruitment of them. Right. So [00:21:45] recruiting a clinician is like recruiting, you know, a senior level managerial [00:21:50] person into another business. So even that is, um, has its challenges. [00:21:55] And we, you know, the clinical team because of that are involved at a super, super [00:22:00] early stage. So people will make contact with the business or we will, you know, contact people. And then [00:22:05] one of the first things that happens is a clinical call. So it’s an hour call with one of my cdas for [00:22:10] the area that the clinician wants to work in. And they talk through their clinical experience. [00:22:15] Uh, we do a degree of, I guess, testing their clinical knowledge to make sure that [00:22:20] we are confident that they will be safe. Things like, you know, warfarin type questions, the kind of things that you [00:22:25] would be horrified by if people didn’t understand or know. Um, we will then often direct them [00:22:30] maybe to appropriate training if they don’t quite, um, answer those questions appropriately. [00:22:35] But what we are talking to them about at that level is, you know, this is what we offer. This is [00:22:40] all of the career, you know, training that we can give you. This is where you can go within the business. What is [00:22:45] it that you’re interested in doing? And things as well. So it’s very much about recognising that they are [00:22:50] self-employed individuals whose career is dependent upon what age they were, would can take any number [00:22:55] of different directions, and that we can support them regardless whether that’s [00:23:00] to go to become a doozy, to become a specialist, just to get more experience, or whether [00:23:05] they do want to go into, you know, the academic side of things, become part of our academy [00:23:10] or become part of our support team.

Payman Langroudi: And do you see your customer as your [00:23:15] dentist? Um, as a as a business?

Nyree Whitley: They absolutely are. Yeah. They pay us [00:23:20] 50% their licence fee and lots of circumstances. So they’re our customer.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:23:25] that’s the main difference I see But with my dentist compared to Ida of old, [00:23:30] is that the clinicians are a lot happier than they used to be. [00:23:35] And I was really surprised maybe 3 or 4 years ago was the first time I heard [00:23:40] someone was choosing to move from an independent to a corporate. I talk [00:23:45] to my dentist, and, you know, I see a lot of your your clinicians on our composite calls. And [00:23:50] and I was I was asking, wow, you actually chose to go to my dentist. It’s crazy. No one chooses [00:23:55] to go there. Um, and and she said something really interesting. She said, you know what you’re going to get, [00:24:00] which is super interesting because you never know what you’re going to get. [00:24:05] Um, at the same time, you don’t you never know what kind of manager you’re going to get. Right. Yeah. But you [00:24:10] never know exactly what’s going to happen. And there are certain minimums that you’re going to get in a corporate that [00:24:15] you’re not going to get in an independent. Mhm. Um, but you know, it’s, it’s a whole job [00:24:20] isn’t it, to keep dentists happy. Um, and recruitment is now easier [00:24:25] or not.

Nyree Whitley: Recruitment’s. Still tough. Still tough. It’s still tough. Very.

Payman Langroudi: What tactics [00:24:30] are you using to try and find dentists? Are you looking abroad?

Nyree Whitley: We are looking abroad because there just [00:24:35] aren’t enough clinicians, as you know, within the UK, to service the population and to fill vacancies. [00:24:40] We then have the issue of um, ah, what we call sheep and seagulls [00:24:45] position. So kind of, you know, very countryside where everybody wants to work in London. You know, [00:24:50] there aren’t there’s already I mean interestingly, we look yesterday, we look at some of the pricing around new [00:24:55] patient examinations across the country. The cheapest is in London because yeah, [00:25:00] by significant amount. It’s just because it’s easier to get an appointment because there are more dentists and [00:25:05] things here. But um, yeah. So we’ve had to look overseas because of that. We have [00:25:10] two areas that we look at. So one is E so Europe, predominantly English [00:25:15] speaking dental schools. We have some that we work with and collaborate with [00:25:20] more than others because over trial and error in a period of time, you know, we’ve come to recognise [00:25:25] that some of the undergraduate training that they have in some universities is more comprehensive [00:25:30] and more akin to that, that they would have in the UK than others. Some for example, radiographs [00:25:35] aren’t covered, you know, as part of their undergraduate degree. That’s an issue. Some don’t understand [00:25:40] the medical side of things at all.

Payman Langroudi: And what are some of the standout ones? [00:25:45]

Nyree Whitley: Cyprus is amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really.

Nyree Whitley: Is amazing.

Payman Langroudi: An amazing high quality teaching. [00:25:50]

Nyree Whitley: Super high quality teaching. Good people. Great graduates. Great approach. [00:25:55] Behaviourally. You know, the clinicians are very similar to those, you know, to to the values and [00:26:00] things that we would have over in the UK. Because sometimes that’s difficult, you know, because you can [00:26:05] have culturally they will be different. It’s the old dentist tells you, not collaborates [00:26:10] with you. And that’s not how it works anymore in the UK. So we’ve come to understand [00:26:15] those dental schools that are better.

Payman Langroudi: Any other standout ones?

Nyree Whitley: Um, there are some of the Spanish [00:26:20] ones are good. Portuguese are very good.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Yeah. Mhm. But when you say Spanish I mean is [00:26:25] there, is there one specific one that you go to as an Valencia’s good. Mhm. [00:26:30] That’s that’s an interesting isn’t it. Yeah. It’s so interesting. So then you go there and and [00:26:35] what do a little presentation for the final years. Is that how you do it.

Nyree Whitley: We do. Oh we actually try and engage them [00:26:40] at a much earlier point. So we talk to them. There are a lot of British nationals [00:26:45] who now go out there because they can’t get into Dental schools in the UK. Yeah. They [00:26:50] are, I guess, a more captive audience and they often want to come back home afterwards. So we talk to [00:26:55] them about what we can offer them as a business and the support that we can give them in terms of [00:27:00] their career and the support that we can give them with mentors. We have [00:27:05] over 370 clinicians trained as mentors now in our business. Um, [00:27:10] so we can offer people either it may well be a formal mentoring scheme where they have conditions [00:27:15] via the NHS, or it may be an informal mentoring scheme where [00:27:20] if they come and come and work privately initially. I mean, it’s crazy, isn’t it right that people can start [00:27:25] doing private work before NHS? But what we will do is often give them a [00:27:30] three month period of working with a mentor just for their own safety and confidence, and for us [00:27:35] to be honest, as a business as well.

Payman Langroudi: What does that entail? When you say working with a mentor?

Nyree Whitley: Okay, so the mentors will [00:27:40] be in their practice.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really.

Nyree Whitley: Mhm. And they will have protected time that they [00:27:45] spend with them every week. They also have that open door policy of, you know, being able to ask [00:27:50] them for any support that they need. And then clearly if and when it’s a formal [00:27:55] mentored scheme, they go through the whole portfolio of evidence piece and things with them and help them through all of that. [00:28:00] Um, we’ve been really successful in getting realistic periods [00:28:05] of time down to about 3 to 6 months for kind of ircp bits for people who [00:28:10] come over as experienced clinicians. Anyway, used to be 12 months sometimes for people. Um, [00:28:15] we have what we call a PDC so professional development course. So [00:28:20] that is if we have inexperienced clinicians. So of course they don’t have to do when [00:28:25] they come over as E.R. graduates, um.

Payman Langroudi: Show them the ropes of the rules and regulations. [00:28:30]

Nyree Whitley: And we do ten days with them phantom head, uh, in our academy, uh, with external [00:28:35] tutors, uh, specialists in various different areas, such as, you know, restorative, [00:28:40] perio, behavioural bits and pieces that we go through with them. It gives [00:28:45] us an opportunity, again, to make sure that it is safe for our patients and safe [00:28:50] for them, because ultimately we want safe patient care and good quality care. But it’s also helpful to their mentors, [00:28:55] them, because we can outline with them which areas they may need more support in than others. [00:29:00] And actually, we can also offer them things like some our practices have lead clinicians [00:29:05] in. So they’re not specifically mentors, but they are overarching clinicians [00:29:10] who are more senior in in their practice and who are happy to support the practice manager [00:29:15] with regard to look after clinicians. So it’s really about discussing all Discussing all of those offerings [00:29:20] with them. Part of it will be financial offerings, but everybody’s got very similar financial offerings these [00:29:25] days.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s a business model. Yeah, the corporate model, the [00:29:30] there’s look, there’s a whole lot of extra people, right. Yeah. There’s [00:29:35] you and your whole team. I’m sure there’s a whole lot of compliance people, a whole lot of management, a whole [00:29:40] lot of extra people have to be paid. Yeah. Where does that money come from? Okay, I [00:29:45] get it right. Economies of scale. Yeah.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, it’s a lot of it.

Payman Langroudi: Which is [00:29:50] that it? I mean, because because I get it. You could. Buying 600 of [00:29:55] anything is is easier than buying one of it. Yeah. And you can get a better deal and all that [00:30:00] I’ve noticed going around to see some of your clinicians that you’ve got these super centres. [00:30:05]

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. And they’re amazing.

Payman Langroudi: And I guess is there, is there an element [00:30:10] of you guys buy 3 or 4 practices in the same town, close them all and then open the super [00:30:15] centre. Is that is that an that an economies of scale thing? Is it cheaper to run a supercenter than four separate? [00:30:20]

Nyree Whitley: There is, but it’s not really about it just being cheaper. So that very much is our growth [00:30:25] trajectory. So we have we have bolt ons, which is very simply [00:30:30] adding more surgeries where you’ve got space in the building to make a practice bigger. That’s really simple. That’s [00:30:35] an easy ROI because it’s not a huge cost. But then we have our [00:30:40] kind of merge and relocate. So that is often where we will [00:30:45] either take. Traditional dentistry was done in terraced houses. That [00:30:50] is not great. Usually for access to be DDA compliant, for patients to park, the shape of the surgeries, [00:30:55] staff rooms, even, and things. You know, for people it’s a nightmare. So we [00:31:00] will take one practice if necessary and move it into often on the high street, [00:31:05] which is a better location or a retail park is one of our favourite things to make it bigger or [00:31:10] merge a couple of practices and do that. So we often will merge two four surgery practices [00:31:15] and turn it into a 16 surgery practice over a period of years. So we might start at ten [00:31:20] and then go to 12. You know, as we get the demand from clinicians that want to come and work [00:31:25] there, and as we get more patients through the door, and actually they have become [00:31:30] almost mini hospitals because we have we [00:31:35] have PhDs in them, we have mentees, we have mentors, we have experienced clinicians. [00:31:40] We will have doozies. We will have implant surgeons, specialists, endo specialists, hygienist, [00:31:45] therapists. They have dedicated their surgeries are genuinely [00:31:50] are kind of, you know, state of the art beautiful big cabinet tree scanners. [00:31:55] We’ve got TCO, uh, you know, we have separate rooms to talk to. The patients in [00:32:00] the staff rooms are, I mean, people’s faces when they see them, when they’ve kind [00:32:05] of just had this tiny little staff places.

Payman Langroudi: People want to work.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. Exactly that. So that [00:32:10] also makes want people to come and work for us because actually to actually to have loads of [00:32:15] colleagues. It’s tough being a dentist, right? It’s very insular. And if you don’t see your staff [00:32:20] room is a great place for people just to get to know the other people they’re working with and to offload and talk [00:32:25] about things that may have happened during the day, to be able to go and grab somebody, to help you to discuss [00:32:30] the case if you need it. So actually in these centres, they [00:32:35] are kind of they’re looking after one another there. And it’s just been it’s been amazing [00:32:40] the difference. And the other thing that we’re now starting to do is what we call brownfields. [00:32:45] So that is where the old way of acquiring practices and trying [00:32:50] to bring them into groups didn’t work. We’ve all done it. We bought for EBITDA. It’s bloody difficult [00:32:55] to get them and to change their ways of working. What we now do is to look for practices [00:33:00] that have the potential to grow, that have good base NHS contracts, because [00:33:05] this is the other really important piece. We keep our NHS contracts, but rather than it being delivered [00:33:10] by four dentists, we spread it between eight. So they’re able to keep [00:33:15] an element of NHS treatment, but they can also do their private work. But we can still service the [00:33:20] NHS patients of that population because we’ve got more people. People don’t deliver 5 [00:33:25] or 6000 udas anymore as they used to. They do three, something like that. Yeah. [00:33:30] Um, and that has worked really well. So with the brownfield, we buy somewhere [00:33:35] and we will then move it into a retail location and [00:33:40] or move it and merge it with one of our other practices. And we’re about to [00:33:45] launch one in Chesterfield in the next couple of weeks in February.

Payman Langroudi: A lot of practices [00:33:50] that have more than ten chairs. Right. How many are we talking of? Those are the guesstimate. [00:33:55]

Nyree Whitley: As a guesstimate. We’ve probably now got about 40 or [00:34:00] 50 something like that, because what we’re doing is so people look and they’ll go, oh, my dentist [00:34:05] is, you know, doesn’t have as many practices as it used to have. No, we don’t, but we’ve got more surgeries.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:34:10] I bet, I bet. So what are some of the downsides of these giant places?

Nyree Whitley: They [00:34:15] are mini businesses in themselves. So Halifax is [00:34:20] one of our really big.

Payman Langroudi: Ones for its little town. It’s the biggest shop [00:34:25] in the whole town.

Nyree Whitley: Exactly. We’ve got 35 clinicians that work there. Yeah. So for a practice [00:34:30] manager to deal with that many nurses, with that many clinicians, [00:34:35] with that many different treatments, that many patients coming through the door, that [00:34:40] was really challenging. And that was one of the most difficult things. We had a really good practice manager [00:34:45] and we moved them to something like that and they failed. And it was our fault. [00:34:50] They failed because it was too much. It was too much. And we maybe didn’t give them initially when we first [00:34:55] started doing these as much support, because these are multi-million pound businesses in themselves. [00:35:00]

Payman Langroudi: Open seven days a week. Long hours. Yeah yeah, yeah. Really difficult. [00:35:05] Really difficult. And yet you keep doing it because it makes sense.

Nyree Whitley: It makes total [00:35:10] sense. Clinicians love them. And there is you know, we don’t have a [00:35:15] business if we don’t have any dentists.

Payman Langroudi: And I guess from the sort of let’s call [00:35:20] it property developers.

Nyree Whitley: Love them, actually. Patients go, is this a private practice now? And it’s like, no [00:35:25] it’s not. It’s a mixed.

Payman Langroudi: Bag from the property development kind of idea. It really makes a lot of sense [00:35:30] because you get sites that have got potential for growth. And you can [00:35:35] you’re so right about the the Victorian houses though, a number of those [00:35:40] that I’ve been in and they’re creaky, they’re impossible to keep properly clean. [00:35:45] You know, it’s so difficult to even if you keep even if they’re super clean, they don’t look clean. No they [00:35:50] don’t. They give the feeling of of a clinical environment.

Nyree Whitley: And we we do have some [00:35:55] of our practices that if I went to visit it as a clinician, you know, they can be I don’t know, maybe [00:36:00] above a takeaway or something like that, or in these old houses you would go and visit it and you would go, yeah, [00:36:05] I’m not working there. It’s nothing other than about the visual that you that you see.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:36:10] I think we underestimate sometimes when we’ve been in it for a while. We underestimate the sort of hopes [00:36:15] and dreams of a young dentist. Often is just to have nice stuff. [00:36:20] Nice room. Clean. Yeah. Nice clean room with. With the right equipment. [00:36:25] Yeah. For a young dentist, that’s really, you know, an important thing sometimes. Yeah. [00:36:30]

Nyree Whitley: It is.

Payman Langroudi: I like that.

Nyree Whitley: But I like that the young dentists as well are working in this [00:36:35] environment with multiple clinicians because we do have and, [00:36:40] you know, you will have heard in terms of litigation type cases, unfortunately some young [00:36:45] clinicians I get it. You know, it’s social media. It’s everything else. It’s [00:36:50] sexy dentistry. They want to run before they can walk. And they’re getting themselves into trouble [00:36:55] because they are starting to do too much complex dentistry before they can even diagnose appropriately. [00:37:00] Um, and I think by being in these big clinics with lots of older [00:37:05] colleagues, they get a lot of lot of very wise advice and support with regards [00:37:10] to their career, and they’re excited about what they can become because they see what these guys do. And as a referral [00:37:15] base, that’s why clinicians like to come and work there as well, because you’ve got if you’ve got 15, 20 [00:37:20] surgeries, certified clinicians and how many patients you’ve got as a referral base, you don’t even need [00:37:25] so many external referrals. Yeah. So they love it for that reason as well.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think things have changed in our [00:37:30] day? We I remember the first time I cut six veneers.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I had [00:37:35] no idea really what I was doing. Mhm. Um, but in, in that day [00:37:40] and age there wasn’t the litigious situation that we have today. And [00:37:45] so would you say for, for a young clinician now it’s harder to [00:37:50] learn because you have to cover yourself at every point. Whereas a lot of dentistry [00:37:55] you learn by just doing. Yeah. And I mean a lot of mistakes are made that way too. [00:38:00] But that’s experience.

Nyree Whitley: That’s right. That is experience. You don’t just wake up one day and you’re an experienced [00:38:05] clinician. Right. Or experienced anything you have to learn along the way. So it [00:38:10] is more challenging. Um, they are you know, we will have some [00:38:15] of our younger clinicians. We have a number of PhDs in the business. Some of them will take 15, 20 minutes to write the [00:38:20] notes for one patient.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Nyree Whitley: And the amount they write is crazy.

Payman Langroudi: It’s about. [00:38:25]

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, it’s about getting the balance right, you know. But you’re right. You can do [00:38:30] all the courses in the world. It’s still not the same on an actual patient. Yeah. [00:38:35]

Payman Langroudi: And at any one time, 3500 dentists at any one time, you’ve got many GDC [00:38:40] cases, complaints. Yeah. Ten birthdays a [00:38:45] day. You know what I mean? Like so many different scenarios. Yeah. Have you now you’ve [00:38:50] got more experience than most on this. Can you sort of distil what [00:38:55] is a good dentist or a good, you know, associate. Yeah. And [00:39:00] who isn’t. And how quickly can you tell?

Nyree Whitley: We can usually tell pretty [00:39:05] much after our our clinical call.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. Because a lot of being a good clinician [00:39:10] is around communication and behavioural attitude.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Nyree Whitley: Because you can train [00:39:15] people and teach people if they are prepared to listen and if they have the right kind of communication [00:39:20] skills. We all know, you know, in the olden days where you [00:39:25] had you took over lists from other clinicians and maybe you took over some patients [00:39:30] who maybe hadn’t been looked after in the best of ways by their dentist, but they thought [00:39:35] this was amazing. Yeah, because they loved them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Nyree Whitley: And I’m not saying that’s the right thing, but, [00:39:40] you know, I think you can. You have the odd person who you go, oh, [00:39:45] you’re really not going to make it clinically. You know, your hands really can’t do things on patients, [00:39:50] but that is few and far between. Most people can be trained, [00:39:55] you know, to be a competent clinician. And they should have got so far in dental school. But [00:40:00] I mean, it’s not it’s terrible to say no. In my day. But it was [00:40:05] in my day. Um, you know, we had a green book, we had tickets, we had to do X amount of things and then [00:40:10] have an exam on that procedure before you’re allowed to progress on. It’s not [00:40:15] the current students fault that they do that in a different way, but they definitely [00:40:20] don’t get the same amount of exposure to clinical work that we used to. And I feel for them in that [00:40:25] regard. It’s difficult to come out, you know, without having some of them have never completed [00:40:30] a root canal.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. But what would you say they’re better at [00:40:35] than me and you. Because the [00:40:40] time me and you spent doing that root canal. Yeah, they were doing something else.

Nyree Whitley: I [00:40:45] don’t they don’t do business, so they don’t do that side of it. Yeah, maybe they do more [00:40:50] psychology or whatever else. Maybe they do more about the actual, [00:40:55] um, theory behind it rather than the doing. [00:41:00] Um, I don’t honestly know.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s just talking on [00:41:05] a society level. Yeah. So it’s very in fashion now to talk about Wokeism and all of that. [00:41:10] Yeah. But but I and I don’t like it. I don’t like wokeism. I don’t like political correctness. [00:41:15] I don’t like some of those. I think we all know what I mean by that. Yeah. [00:41:20] But I do think that might be the ugly underbelly. Yeah. [00:41:25] Of something quite valuable. Yeah. And what’s quite valuable about it is you’ve got 17 year [00:41:30] old child, you know, I’ve got 17 year old. A 13 year old. Yeah. That generation [00:41:35] is totally not racist. Non sexist bullying [00:41:40] is really frowned on with that generation. Things are nowadays, [00:41:45] you know like a bit of sexism and racism in our day would be something you’d completely [00:41:50] expect.

Nyree Whitley: But the other side of it is that I have a friend [00:41:55] who teaches in a mental hospital where they have told me where [00:42:00] they have undergraduates that have been undergraduates for six or 7 or 8 years, [00:42:05] because they cannot stop them from carrying on and trying to pass. [00:42:10] Um, but who have also said to them they’ve had procedures [00:42:15] where they’ve had, for example, oroantral fistula, and they’ve said to [00:42:20] them, oh, we have an oaf here. Do you want to come and assist with this? Because that will be really good experience. [00:42:25] No, I don’t feel like doing that today. And you can’t make them.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:42:30] we’re getting back to the sort of the downside of that generation, right. So yeah you’re [00:42:35] talking about entitlement.

Nyree Whitley: And so that’s why I don’t know in dental school how many days now they spend going, no, [00:42:40] I don’t feel like seeing patients today. I don’t know. I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: You know, when [00:42:45] I talk to teachers of that generation, that’s not what I.

Nyree Whitley: Hear.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:42:50] isn’t. I mean, there may be the odd occasion where something like that happens, and it may be that, [00:42:55] uh, you know, me and you are looking out for that. Yeah, I.

Nyree Whitley: Know.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but, you [00:43:00] know, of course, a teacher of that generation has to, you know, be proud of what he’s teaching. Right? So there’s [00:43:05] that sort of cognitive dissonance as well. Yeah. Um, but my point on, you know, my [00:43:10] societal point is that there are things about this generation which are very valuable. Yeah. [00:43:15] There are. So what can we say about the current Dental generation that is valuable, for [00:43:20] instance, from my perspective? Now, I don’t own a gigantic 600 practice business. Yeah. From my perspective, [00:43:25] the fact that dentists, young dentists say things like, I want to work three days a week [00:43:30] and don’t feel bad about that, or, you know, even even [00:43:35] kind of what you alluded to. They say, I want to do cosmetic only dentistry. I don’t want [00:43:40] to do bread and butter. A lot of people really hate this. And they say, well, you know, in our day, we [00:43:45] used to work 5 or 6 days a week. We used to do everything. You know, people used to go [00:43:50] on the NHS. But I think actually that’s that’s an evolution that’s welcome in that. [00:43:55] Why should we do something we something we don’t want to do.

Nyree Whitley: I would rather have [00:44:00] more clinicians required to deliver the services who [00:44:05] are happy, and less clinicians who are stressed. We know that historically, [00:44:10] suicide rates and things in dentistry was high, stress levels was high. Even things like back problems [00:44:15] and neck problems because the amount of clinical work that they did. I’m really happy for people [00:44:20] to do three days a week, you know, and to get a work life balance, because I love work. [00:44:25] I work a lot. It just motivates me. Not everybody. Yeah, exactly. [00:44:30] It’s who I am. But it’s not. Everybody is like that. I want people to [00:44:35] have a happy life. And if that balance is three days work, and the rest [00:44:40] of the week they do whatever it is, whether that’s a different type of work or whether that’s just spending time [00:44:45] with themselves in nature, with their family, whatever. That’s [00:44:50] great.

Payman Langroudi: Your interest is that they’re happy.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Mine two, mine two tears. [00:44:55] Um, but it’s nice. What I’m saying is, it’s nice that now to be happy. You can do that.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. And you don’t have [00:45:00] to feel guilty about doing that. Yeah. Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. When you think along [00:45:05] your journey. Yeah. And you very kind [00:45:10] of early on in your journey started to go down the corporate path. [00:45:15] Is that right. Like how many years in did you go to Denticare.

Nyree Whitley: Denticare was. [00:45:20] I’d been qualified for about 12, 15 years. But quite soon in my journey, I started [00:45:25] to go down the non-clinical route. So I liked clinical work, you know, I [00:45:30] qualified as a dentist, I did.

Payman Langroudi: Guys.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. In. Guys. Yeah. Best [00:45:35] dental school in the world.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Nyree Whitley: Tell them guys.

[TRANSITION]: It was.

Payman Langroudi: Just. [00:45:40] Let’s just call it kings from now to. Just to piss you off a little bit.

Nyree Whitley: You can’t [00:45:45] see it because the shard.

[TRANSITION]: Just disappeared.

Nyree Whitley: Now. Um, but [00:45:50] it. So I qualified, and I did house officer post Show posts. [00:45:55]

Payman Langroudi: Part of.

Nyree Whitley: Surgery? Yeah. Oral surgery. I did a bit of paediatrics. Yeah, exactly. Because I kind of [00:46:00] thought, oh, that’s the one thing I’m not sure if I’d be confident doing when I went to practice. Is any extraction that comes around [00:46:05] the corner.

Payman Langroudi: Were you top of your class, like in the top half of your class? Were you.

Nyree Whitley: Were you? Yeah. Because you had to be in order [00:46:10] to get a house officer post. Was I studious? No, I was a good balance.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:46:15] was that place?

Nyree Whitley: I played rugby.

Payman Langroudi: In the spit the whole.

Nyree Whitley: Time. Yeah, I played rugby for guy’s Ladies. [00:46:20]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Yeah. Really? Really? Really. Okay. So you had a great time? Yeah. Rugby rules in guys or rules [00:46:25] back then? I don’t know.

Nyree Whitley: I think it’s still fairly strong. Is it? Yeah. It’s great. To be [00:46:30] fair, I’d never played rugby before. Oh, really? I was always sporting. I did athletics and running, but it [00:46:35] was most of us. It was the 150th year because guys is the oldest rugby club in the world. [00:46:40] So they started they decided to start a ladies team, you know, because a number of the other hospitals and [00:46:45] things had it. So it predominantly ended up being the kind of girlfriends of the first and second 15 that [00:46:50] started a rugby team. And it went from there. And it was great fun. Okay, well, it was [00:46:55] great fun whilst we played the other hospitals because, you know, we actually did super well and we [00:47:00] won, but we then decided to go and try and play real teams. So I remember going on tour [00:47:05] to bath, where they had a ladies team, and even when they came out on the pitch, no disrespect, we [00:47:10] looked at them and went, are you kidding me?

Payman Langroudi: Did you get damaged?

Nyree Whitley: Wow. I was thinking, I need these [00:47:15] hands for my career. This is not fun anymore. These guys are serious. [00:47:20]

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t continue after guys.

Nyree Whitley: No no.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Nyree Whitley: No no. [00:47:25] I actually a total aside, but my final year, uh, I [00:47:30] went off on an elective, as we all did. I went to Canada, and then I went [00:47:35] to Los Angeles and then Las Vegas and then Hawaii.

Payman Langroudi: Which one of those was the work [00:47:40] bit? Any of it? L.a., L.A. and Canada. Ucla?

Nyree Whitley: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. And where in [00:47:45] Canada?

Nyree Whitley: We went to Toronto. Toronto dental school, which is lovely. However, I [00:47:50] went with a friend, so we did our kind of bit in the Dental school first, and then his aunty was [00:47:55] from kind of one of the skiing places there. So we went to I’d skied before but never [00:48:00] snowboarded so he said, oh, let’s try snowboarding. And I was like, okay, cool. So I did [00:48:05] a day of it with the lessons and thought, I don’t like this because I’m used to going forwards and I [00:48:10] can’t do this sideways thing and not detaching from the board. So I said to the guy teaching is, I’m really [00:48:15] not enjoying this. Can I change the skis? He was like, yeah, no problem, just change tomorrow to skis. Um, [00:48:20] so I said, okay, thanks. Went down the nursery slope to go back into the cafe, fell backwards, put my hands [00:48:25] behind me and broke my right wrist.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Nyree Whitley: And it was like, okay. I remember thinking, [00:48:30] oh, oh, like stubbing your toe, thinking, okay, the hour’s not going, something’s not [00:48:35] right. Yeah, yeah. And my friend who will know who he is, who we were with elective [00:48:40] together and I said, don’t say his name, but it’s like I [00:48:45] think I’ve broken my wrist. And he was. I think we need to go to hospital. And I kind of took my glove off and it [00:48:50] was all was all poking up like that. And he said, I’ve got to have a fag first. [00:48:55] Have a cigarette. I was like, you’re.

[TRANSITION]: Having a cigarette? What about my broken wrist? [00:49:00]

Nyree Whitley: So anyway, I went there and I had it cast, and then I went round on the rest of my elective in a plaster cast, [00:49:05] which was good from the perspective of. We kept getting upgraded on flights, which was amazing. So that was positive. [00:49:10] But when I came back and had the cast taken off, I kind of couldn’t [00:49:15] move my wrist and I just thought, well, you know, it’s stiff. It’s been in a cast. Um, but I remember going to one of [00:49:20] my registrars, who’s one of the oral surgery registrars who clearly had already done medicine and things as well. [00:49:25] And I said, should I be able to move my wrist? And he was like, let’s have a look. And [00:49:30] he was like, you need to go straight down to orthopaedics. So I had something called reflex [00:49:35] sympathetic dystrophy that apparently only old people usually get after they fall. So all of the [00:49:40] parasympathetic nervous system had been damaged, I think, cause I hadn’t been in a split cast and had been flying around [00:49:45] and doing various things, so I literally couldn’t move my right hand and I’m right I’m right handed. It was kind of stuck. [00:49:50] So I was a final year dental student about to go into elective, so thankfully I got [00:49:55] rushed in quickly. I had to have a load of guanethidine blocks, which was blocks to kill [00:50:00] off the parasympathetic nerves as an impatient and loads of physio. And I was very lucky [00:50:05] and it came back. So that was a little bit scary in my final. So I nearly wasn’t a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Was [00:50:10] there any element of that that then made you think I better have something non-clinical [00:50:15] to go? Is that, is that did it have any.

Nyree Whitley: No. I’ve just never been skiing since.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

[TRANSITION]: I’ve [00:50:20] only the chill factor in Manchester.

Payman Langroudi: Where have you grown up before, guys? Where [00:50:25] were.

[TRANSITION]: You?

Nyree Whitley: Wales is home for me.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, really? Yeah. Okay.

Nyree Whitley: So. Yeah. Um, so [00:50:30] I just, I went to, visited a number of different dental schools and things, you know, as you do [00:50:35] when you go and look at dental schools and things like bone marrow. I didn’t like it. It had [00:50:40] that moving lift thing.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Nyree Whitley: And I was like, oh, I can’t go there. I can’t keep getting on and off. It has. But [00:50:45] I was like, I can’t keep going on and on that lift. I went to Leeds and I fancy Cardiff. No, [00:50:50] I never applied to Cardiff because I didn’t want to stay in Wales. I am Welsh, very proud of being Welsh, [00:50:55] but I.

Payman Langroudi: Was in Cardiff.

Nyree Whitley: Oh, okay. Yeah. So it was when I went to [00:51:00] guy’s. I just liked it immediately. There was just something about it resonated with me. Clearly it depended [00:51:05] on the visit that I had, you know, on the day.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so small town, North [00:51:10] Wales. Yeah. To.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Big city. Yeah. What were you what were your [00:51:15] initial feelings when you, like, saw London Bridge and London Bridge back then. Wasn’t as nice as it is now.

Nyree Whitley: It wasn’t as nice [00:51:20] as it is now.

Payman Langroudi: You. Wolfson house.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. Wolfson house? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So were you were you excited [00:51:25] or nervous or both. Like, how did you feel? It was a bit dodgy, that area. I remember my brother was [00:51:30] around the same time as you. I just dropped him off. I said, it’s a bit dodgy here, you know, like.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, [00:51:35] I guess I was. I was used to going to London. My dad did a degree in London later on [00:51:40] in his career, so we used to go down to London, so I thought I knew London, whereas you know, I knew Trafalgar Square and places [00:51:45] like that. I didn’t really know London per se, but I never felt nervous. I [00:51:50] always felt really confident because most of what we did was very insular around [00:51:55] guys. I could have been anywhere, to be honest. But, um, I loved my time [00:52:00] there. I know everybody and not everybody.

Payman Langroudi: Not everybody, by the way. I loved my time. But yeah, [00:52:05] I’ve had several people sitting here saying it was some of the hardest times of their life, you know, like mentally, [00:52:10] mentally, I couldn’t handle it, didn’t fit in, you know, these sort of things. I [00:52:15] loved it too.

Nyree Whitley: I yeah, it was just I look back on it with [00:52:20] such fondness. It was great. I had a great time, great people, great [00:52:25] education, great balance of, you know, the rugby and the barn. I used to work in the bar. Play [00:52:30] hard, work hard. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You remember that character? Yeah. That was a happy character. [00:52:35] The person who worked in the bar. It was just always great.

Nyree Whitley: You got paid for being out with your friends. It’s like, [00:52:40] this is a win win. Um, so I grown.

Payman Langroudi: Up with jobs. [00:52:45]

Nyree Whitley: Had I grown up with jobs? Yeah. I’d always had weekend and evening and summer jobs.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [00:52:50]

Nyree Whitley: Always. Always wanted to earn my own money.

Payman Langroudi: So interesting. Because always I’ve sat and talked to so [00:52:55] many people here. And that one thing, people who had jobs as [00:53:00] a child end up being really, really successful. I’ve seen and a lot of them attribute [00:53:05] their a lot of their success to what they learnt in those jobs. Um, my kids [00:53:10] have never worked. Have yours?

Nyree Whitley: No, I mean, they’re too busy playing hockey, but it’s also [00:53:15] that thing of they’re not allowed to in the same way they, they kind of. My eldest is, um, [00:53:20] nearly 21. So she’s kind of, you know, done some work within uni and things, but not [00:53:25] in the same way. I literally and my sister the same. I’ve got a younger sister. We always had summer jobs [00:53:30] and always had weekend jobs, and it wasn’t because my parents told us to. We just [00:53:35] wanted to. I kind of, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Want to have your own money.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, I figured out, you know, if I wanted [00:53:40] to buy additional things, I needed to go and earn the money.

Payman Langroudi: To do it. But my kids don’t have that problem. Yeah, they [00:53:45] ask for stuff and they just get it. I know, I know. I mean, it’s a [00:53:50] way that you were brought up that made it like that.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, but I remember one of my things [00:53:55] that I had from when I was very little, like kind of 3 or 4, I had this yellow patent [00:54:00] bag that I used to go around telling everybody, it’s my bag. [00:54:05] It’s my important bag for me to do my work with. So maybe they [00:54:10] all started off at that age even before I could work. But I’d say I love, [00:54:15] I love work, I’ve always loved work, but clinical dentistry [00:54:20] didn’t give me what I wanted. Well.

Payman Langroudi: When you think [00:54:25] back, I remember when I think back, when I think back to why was [00:54:30] it I stopped doing clinical dentistry or had these lofty goals of doing supplying [00:54:35] dentists? Yeah. What was it about it? And what do I think back on it? It was [00:54:40] in the four walls and I remember [00:54:45] loving the particular job I was in because it was a fully private job, and I and I was making [00:54:50] more money than I’d ever made in my life. And I liked my nurse and I like the princess, [00:54:55] so everything was right about it. Yeah. But as a 27 year old or whatever I was, [00:55:00] I thought even if I do the best, best thing, I’m [00:55:05] only impacting a five mile radius of these four walls. Yeah. And I think it was a childish thing because [00:55:10] in a way, I could have I could have had 100 practices right? Then I’d have much more impact. Yeah. But [00:55:15] in that moment, I couldn’t handle it. What was it for you?

Nyree Whitley: It was boring. [00:55:20]

Payman Langroudi: Clinical?

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. You found it too monotonous.

Payman Langroudi: Not fast moving enough. [00:55:25]

Nyree Whitley: And it was like. I love the patients. I love the interaction with patients. Genuinely. That’s [00:55:30] part of why I went into dentistry. Because I like people. I like working with people. Um, [00:55:35] but it was just. And I did courses and I did, you know, Paul Tipton’s courses. And I thought, well, [00:55:40] should I should I do? Period. And it was just there was nothing that excited me clinically. [00:55:45] I just, I thought, I cannot spend the rest of my career working [00:55:50] in the thought of buying my own practice and therefore being in the same place with [00:55:55] the same patients for the next 40 years just filled me with dread. I like change, [00:56:00] I like challenge, and I need to be challenged and be busy. But [00:56:05] it is great also to have an impact on more people, more patients, more clinicians, [00:56:10] and to be able to make more of a difference. Genuinely, I just got really bored.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:56:15] then someone who gets bored easily. Yeah, I, I, I imagine [00:56:20] you have loads of meetings.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, but they’re all different every day. [00:56:25] All day. Different challenges.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe I’m ADHD. I hate meetings. Even [00:56:30] if it’s about the most. The thing I’m most passionate about. Yeah. After all, my team knows after about 25 [00:56:35] minutes, I’m zoning. I’m nervous. I’m zoning out. You must [00:56:40] have me. Let’s go through your typical day.

Nyree Whitley: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: What time do you wake up?

Nyree Whitley: Me? [00:56:45] 4:45.

Payman Langroudi: What? In the darkness.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, cause I’m in the gym [00:56:50] by six. Always. Every day. Every day.

Payman Langroudi: Wow. Okay. Every day is [00:56:55] a gym nearby?

Nyree Whitley: Uh, it’s about ten, 15 minute drive. Something like that.

Payman Langroudi: You live in Chester?

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, I live [00:57:00] in Chester. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So go ahead.

Nyree Whitley: So I’ll be in the gym from six, [00:57:05] uh, usually six till about half seven. Course two, eight, something like that.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:57:10] do you do the whole sort of, uh, sauna? Cold spa, kind of. It’s all. [00:57:15] It’s all hard core.

Nyree Whitley: It’s all hard core.

Payman Langroudi: Do you weights?

Nyree Whitley: I do weights four days a week. [00:57:20] I do, I do high rocks. I do high rocks classes a couple of days a week, and then I run 3 or 4 times [00:57:25] a week as well. Bloody hell. So I love exercise. I love exercise, and I [00:57:30] also like the interaction the gym is it’s it’s an independent gym. It’s a big ish independent gym. [00:57:35] But it really is people that just love fitness and exercise, so there’s not crazy people there. They’re [00:57:40] fantastic group of supportive people. So there is never a time I go to the gym where there [00:57:45] aren’t people there that I know. So it’s lovely as well, because particularly when they know I’m going to go home. Am I meeting [00:57:50] start either eight or half eight.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll just carry on with the gym. Okay. Have you got headphones on? [00:57:55]

Nyree Whitley: No, because I like to interact with people.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So then back home. [00:58:00]

Nyree Whitley: So then I’ll get home, get ready, get some breakfast. Uh, say, my youngest is still [00:58:05] at home, so, um, I’m divorced, so if [00:58:10] she’s with me, uh, I need to make sure she’s up, although she always is, and get her sorted off to go to school. Then [00:58:15] my meetings start at eight or half eight, so they will usually be when they’re that [00:58:20] early. Something like one to ones with other. My colleagues, uh, the COO, sometimes [00:58:25] COO, CFO, CPO uh, weekly leadership calls. So we’ll have the whole team [00:58:30] on and go over things or one to ones with my team. So because I look [00:58:35] after the clinical teams, I’ll have one to ones with all the clinical directors. But [00:58:40] then I also look after compliance and registration.

Payman Langroudi: For the whole group.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, for the whole group, health [00:58:45] and safety for the whole group, and also patient support and services that deals with patient complaints. [00:58:50] Um, and you’re.

Payman Langroudi: In charge of all of those four things? Yeah. Goodness. [00:58:55] Okay.

Nyree Whitley: Amazing teams. I have amazing teams.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So, so so [00:59:00] these are like, zoom meetings, like teams meetings, teams meetings.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. So with all of them, then we may have some external [00:59:05] meetings. Then we’ll have steering groups. So there’ll be like growth projects. [00:59:10] There’ll be.

Payman Langroudi: You’re.

Nyree Whitley: Still sitting.

Payman Langroudi: At home and back to back meetings. Yeah. [00:59:15] Oh, God. That would kill me. That would just. I would hate that.

Nyree Whitley: A couple of it’s about 2 or 3 days a week. [00:59:20] Will usually be at home, but.

Payman Langroudi: Back to back meetings all day.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. All day.

Payman Langroudi: Wow. [00:59:25] Wow. And what’s your process? Meeting ends. Are you making notes or something? What [00:59:30] are you doing?

Nyree Whitley: No, I, I do make some notes on a notepad. Pod. Yeah, I [00:59:35] mentally make a lot of my notes. It’s just how I work. If I’m writing, I’m [00:59:40] not listening. Um, although we started using AI now for our meetings [00:59:45] to kind of, like, record the meeting notes, which is revolutionary. Yeah. Um, although [00:59:50] it will do things like record how many.

Payman Langroudi: Typically you’re talking to a regional, uh, [00:59:55] clinical director.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is it? I guess [01:00:00] I guess there’s things that that person can take care of themselves, and they’re the things that they can’t take [01:00:05] care of. And that’s what they’re talking to you about. Well, give me an example of that. What? What kind of thing might [01:00:10] that be?

Nyree Whitley: Uh, first thing will be, how are they? You know, that’s always.

Payman Langroudi: Keeping [01:00:15] them happy.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. Always remember my not being mean about my ex-husband, [01:00:20] but my ex-husband. Always remember him when it was Covid. So he started to have some meetings. He’s [01:00:25] in it, so nothing like me at all. But I remember him saying to me, oh, I’ve kind of had a 1 to 1 with my boss. And [01:00:30] she’s saying when I’m having one on ones with my teams, I. The first thing I should ask him is how you are. [01:00:35] And I was like, do you not automatically ask them how they are? He was like, no, [01:00:40] but that’s always the first thing you ask people, right? Because if people are not happy or mentally in the right space [01:00:45] or you need to understand them and I want to get, you know, I, I want to know my [01:00:50] teams, I need to know if they’re having any personal issues or problems or if there’s any more support [01:00:55] that we can give them. So that’ll be the first ten minutes of the meeting. Or it might be, you know, what we’ve done at [01:01:00] the weekend or, you know, and the rest of it, then it will be there is kind of with those [01:01:05] people, key criteria that they will go through a proforma, which is where they’ll update me on things like, [01:01:10] say, productivity, how are implants going? Whiteners aligners, those kind of things, compliance [01:01:15] and stuff in their regions. How are their teams.

Payman Langroudi: Like performance indicators?

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, yeah. So those [01:01:20] kind of things. But then there’ll be things that they need to discuss, and it may be problems that they have with their [01:01:25] teams. It may be scenarios around clinicians that they have. It may be issues around, [01:01:30] you know, NHS concerns that we have maybe some commissioning things or suggestions. [01:01:35] So it’s those kind of things you know, I will support with. Or sometimes they will need sign [01:01:40] off or sometimes they will need my support to approach other areas of the business where that [01:01:45] they are struggling with, for example.

Payman Langroudi: All right. That meeting’s over. What’s the next meeting?

Nyree Whitley: Typically [01:01:50] it can be something like a business review. So that’s where I’ll be the clinical director [01:01:55] and the director of region for a region. And we will go through there on a monthly basis there about an hour, [01:02:00] an hour and a half long. So that’ll be me, the the CEO, CPO, CEO [01:02:05] going through their performance, having a look at their recruitment, their performance, their projected performance, [01:02:10] what’s going well, what isn’t, what further support do they need be [01:02:15] that kind of thing. Then it might be something like a health and safety committee meeting, a clinical governance board. [01:02:20] Then it’ll be external meetings with things like, uh, one of the things that we’re looking to implement [01:02:25] at the moment is radiography AI. So. Oh, I also look after I forgot [01:02:30] Got apologies. Um, I have private and specialist under me now as well, so they’ve come [01:02:35] under me.

Payman Langroudi: So all of that group.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. So the clinical commercial director who had a private and specialist reports into [01:02:40] me. So a lot of the stuff. Yeah. Nick. So a lot of the stuff he does his innovation. So [01:02:45] that will be looking forwards. Uh, so we are radiography.

Payman Langroudi: I say, [01:02:50] Pearl.

Nyree Whitley: Uh, we’ve looked at Pearl, we’ve looked at video, we’ve looked at Overjet. So we’re [01:02:55] looking at a number of them. Yeah. We talk to work very closely with a number [01:03:00] of my American colleagues. Learn a lot from them, from Aspen Heartland, the big groups over there, they always do things a bit [01:03:05] before we do. So it’s really useful to look at what they’ve done. Um, so it may well be [01:03:10] meetings with them or with Nick around where we’ve got to or with our IT team around [01:03:15] intraoral scanners. We’ve got a whole scanner team, and I’ve got clinical bits of it and, you know, non-clinical [01:03:20] bits supporting where they’re going in the estate. How is that going? Clinical digital [01:03:25] workflow. Therefore what labs do we need. So it’ll be around the lab piece that we’re doing. [01:03:30] So there’ll be lots of. So it’s loads of different stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Nyree Whitley: Some of it will be with my exec [01:03:35] team members, you know, around strategy and things. Five year plan.

Payman Langroudi: When does it all end? When the [01:03:40] 530.

Nyree Whitley: No meetings do. Usually end at 530. Um, [01:03:45] I will I’m. I don’t know if I’m bad. It just fits [01:03:50] me. I do not expect my team to look at their emails after hours. I know [01:03:55] that if there is something urgent that I can call them and they will answer, but really, realistically, [01:04:00] what is that urgent around a dental practice that needs to be dealt with out of hours? [01:04:05] Um, we will have some people that work condensed hours, so they will work [01:04:10] in the evening as opposed to working in the day. Um, so I will check my phone for [01:04:15] emails and things that come through. I hate my phone. Never has any notifications [01:04:20] on it, personal or work. I’m a bit OCD with that. Don’t show me yours if it does. I [01:04:25] don’t have a single notification. I get rid of everything.

Payman Langroudi: That makes.

Nyree Whitley: Me everything? Oh [01:04:30] my God. I can’t cope with that. No, I mean, mine will have them now because [01:04:35] they’ve come in while we’ve been talking. But no, I clear everything. I always like my decks.

Payman Langroudi: To do [01:04:40] that. Yeah. Go on. Do you still keep on working after 530?

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, but I might go. Go to [01:04:45] the gym or spend time with the children. Or spend time with friends. Sometimes I go twice a day. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Whoa.

Nyree Whitley: Have [01:04:50] a bit of an obsession, but it’s. I say to the, you know, my kids where they sometimes go. Mommy, [01:04:55] do you think you have a problem with exercise? I’m like, well, maybe. But there are much worse problems to have. I just [01:05:00] love it. I like it makes me feel okay.

Payman Langroudi: Dinner. Do you cook? [01:05:05]

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. And then what’s very impatient? Cook.

Payman Langroudi: What time do you go to bed?

Nyree Whitley: I go to bed about nine. [01:05:10] Because of getting up at 4:45, I’ll read between 9 and 10. I’ll read a book [01:05:15] and a non-work book.

Payman Langroudi: Which bit of that do you see as me? Time? Obviously. The reading bit. [01:05:20] The gym?

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, the gym and the gym. And the book. And the spending time with [01:05:25] children and friends. I watch watched some rubbish TV and things as well. Good.

Payman Langroudi: You know.

Nyree Whitley: I do. I do. [01:05:30]

Payman Langroudi: And then what is that? Rinse, repeat the next day. Similar.

Nyree Whitley: Five days? Yeah. Some of the days I’ll be out in [01:05:35] the field, so I’ll go out with my clinical directors. It’s really important that I. You know, I need to still [01:05:40] talk to the guys on the ground. You know, they’re the real people that know what’s going on. So always try and get [01:05:45] out at least one day a week, and then some days it will be travelled to usually London, Manchester [01:05:50] or Birmingham for team meetings like what we call our cops meeting. It’s clinical operations, [01:05:55] bringing everybody together. You know, in one big meeting there once a month, my exact meetings [01:06:00] or once a month board meeting once a month, a month, those kind of things will bring me to [01:06:05] London.

[TRANSITION]: Oh my God, a busy executive. Busy, busy.

Nyree Whitley: I love being busy. [01:06:10]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, fine, fine, fine. I mean, there’s the idea of starting your own corporate. Not [01:06:15] crossed your mind.

[TRANSITION]: Oh.

Nyree Whitley: I wish I’d done it when I was younger. If I’d [01:06:20] have known and understood what I know now. But now I think the think the problem [01:06:25] for me is having worked in my dentist and been its. [01:06:30] For example, during Covid we were so lucky. I mean, I was busier than I ever [01:06:35] was then. I was working evenings and things and everything else. But you know, that’s understandable. But [01:06:40] we had people with expertise in every single area of dentistry [01:06:45] and both business and non-business to call on. I mean, such a lucky [01:06:50] position with that. That’s why I know you say, oh, yeah, well, I might be the head dentist. Yeah, but I have teams [01:06:55] of people who genuinely are amazing. We have a very flat structure. It is like the whole thing [01:07:00] with, you know, talking to the cleaner in NASA. What do you do? I put the first astronaut on the moon. [01:07:05] That is genuinely what it’s like. There is no thing of, oh, I can’t talk to Nori because she’s [01:07:10] chief clinical officer. Anybody and anybody can come to me with their views, their [01:07:15] perspectives. And it’s everybody is important in our business and we’re very, very [01:07:20] good at that. It is not hierarchical at all. You have to have those positions. [01:07:25] Sometimes the buck stops with me. Sometimes we as an exec have to make a decision and it’s going to be a difficult decision, [01:07:30] right? It is what it is. But everybody contributes and we’re very collaborative. [01:07:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, when I’ve noticed that with you sort of senior people is [01:07:40] is at the conference, which is extraordinary, extraordinary. [01:07:45]

Nyree Whitley: Having one this year didn’t have one last year.

Payman Langroudi: But yet again, the production value of that thing blew me [01:07:50] away. I had no idea that that was what it was going to be. Huge. Yeah. Huge event.

Nyree Whitley: Our [01:07:55] internal teams that put that together.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But you could see the the good mood that everyone was in [01:08:00] as well. And you know like really good bit of education, a lot of fun. And [01:08:05] the um how many people turn up to that?

Nyree Whitley: I think we had about 800 now. [01:08:10]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Nyree Whitley: And more maybe on the second on the CPD day last time. We’ll try and get more this [01:08:15] time, as many as possible, as many as possible because it’s about, you know, it’s a joint thing. It’s around [01:08:20] educating them around the business and what we’re doing. And then it’s also around educating them around dentistry. But it [01:08:25] also is that thing of giving them an opportunity to talk to us, you know, and feedback as well, with [01:08:30] the best will in the world. 3500 dentists, I have met them all right. They can all email me. We do [01:08:35] our little. I mean, I always laugh because we do a lot of video that we, [01:08:40] you know, send out to practices both at management level and clinician level. And so whenever [01:08:45] I go to a practice, it’s really funny because they’ll go, ah, I know who you are. I’ve seen [01:08:50] you on the video things. It’s really weird. And then they’re like, oh, you’re much smaller or whatever else, but [01:08:55] it’s really important that we are reachable. I hate [01:09:00] I do not like Ivory tower. I do not like. [01:09:05] I remember distinctly my cousin was a solicitor in the military.

Nyree Whitley: And when I finished my O-levels, [01:09:10] because I was the last year of people doing O-levels, I went over to Germany and Berlin to go and visit her. [01:09:15] And she was an officer because she was a solicitor, and I was staying in the officer’s mess. And I just walked across to the I remember [01:09:20] what they call the shop anyway. And some soldiers just stopped me to talk to me, and I kind of like, ah, you [01:09:25] know, you’re Jane’s cousin and whatever else, blah, blah, blah. And I just chatted to them and I went back and she said, who [01:09:30] was that you were talking to? And I was like, oh, I don’t know. It was just some soldiers. She was like, you can’t talk to them. You’ll stay in the [01:09:35] officer’s mess. This was a long time ago, and it’s not the same anymore. But I hate that because people [01:09:40] are people and everybody’s opinion is valued. So I’m [01:09:45] not always going to come up with the best ideas. I have to validate them and say whether it’s something we can do financially, [01:09:50] economically, commercially, strategically for the business. But I don’t have all the ideas.

Payman Langroudi: I’d [01:09:55] like to go to two different areas now. One, we like to talk about mistakes. [01:10:00]

Nyree Whitley: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Before we do that though, um, what [01:10:05] was an idea of yours that did become a thing? And you’re proud of Cdas. [01:10:10]

Nyree Whitley: So we used to clinical development advisors.

Payman Langroudi: Oh those guys.

Nyree Whitley: So we used to have [01:10:15] clinical support managers. Yeah. Um, who were kind of similar, but it was more of a kind [01:10:20] of compliance type checking role. They did a bit of interaction with dentists, but [01:10:25] even the whole word manager being in the title, right? They weren’t perceived in the right way. But we changed [01:10:30] them to clinical development advisors and change what they do and have doubled [01:10:35] the number of clinical people that we’ve got in the business to support our clinicians and the way they support [01:10:40] our clinicians and the way we have people with different levels of expertise, like guys that particularly [01:10:45] support mentors and mentees, those with experts in aligners, experts in implants, [01:10:50] central people. We never had a clinical central team. So those bits increasing [01:10:55] the clinical team and the breadth of it I’m most proud of, [01:11:00] and also that team now is actually also super commercial. They’re not just clinical. [01:11:05] They get business, which is great.

Payman Langroudi: Are you up for talking about your compensation? [01:11:10]

Nyree Whitley: What do you mean compensation in terms of.

Payman Langroudi: The way you get paid? Do you get paid in [01:11:15] shares as well as in.

Nyree Whitley: I have shares. I have chairs and I have celery. I would earn a lot more [01:11:20] if I was in practice, but you know, I would. I see some clinicians, particularly orthodontists, [01:11:25] saying knew I should have become an orthodontist, but it’s I, I can’t [01:11:30] complain about what I get paid because it’s more important for [01:11:35] me just to love my job. If I wanted to earn a load of money, I would genuinely have stayed in practice. I would [01:11:40] have earned more money. But I have shares, um, shares.

Payman Langroudi: But if a friendly [01:11:45] Saudi billionaire said, hey, let’s open a chain of dental practices together, do [01:11:50] you think you’d go for I mean, you’ve got so much energy still when you said when you were younger. [01:11:55] Yeah, of course, but now you’re waking up 4 a.m. every day [01:12:00] to go to the gym. You could pull it off, as I’m not saying do it, but if it happened, [01:12:05] you’d be the right person. You’d be the right partner to consider it.

Nyree Whitley: You’d consider it. But I, [01:12:10] I love my dentist. I love what it’s done for me in my career. I love the people in it. [01:12:15] And it is. I mean, I’ll never forget. Susanna Reid, though, said she was BBC through and through [01:12:20] and if you cut her in half you’d see BBC and then she went to work for ITV. So maybe that would [01:12:25] be me, but it wouldn’t just be on a on a money on its own [01:12:30] doesn’t drive me.

Payman Langroudi: Well, I mean, this project would probably be [01:12:35] more risky anyway, right? Yeah. It’s that question of, you know, doing something of your own. I mean, it’s obvious talking [01:12:40] to you that you feel like you, you, you are owning part of ideas by dentists, whether or not, [01:12:45] you know, that’s reflected in the share number.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. Let’s talk about mistakes.

Nyree Whitley: Okay. [01:12:50] Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind when I say mistakes. We like to talk about clinical mistakes. But [01:12:55] with you it might be a different type of mistake. It might be a business mistake.

Nyree Whitley: I [01:13:00] think clinical mistakes. Everybody’s made mistakes right. [01:13:05] Um I think sometimes that whole thing that we’re all all told about, you [01:13:10] know, don’t overpromise and under-deliver and under promise and over deliver. You know, you all think [01:13:15] when you’re younger. I’ve never had anything, thankfully, go catastrophically wrong. [01:13:20] Um, but maybe I’ve not judged. You know, actually, [01:13:25] the worst thing that I ever did was in facial aesthetics, where it was somebody with a body dysmorphia [01:13:30] where I thought I could make her happy, and I didn’t. Yeah, it’s similar with dentures, [01:13:35] I think, isn’t it? You know, when you think you can make an amazing denture for somebody who comes in with a bag of them? Thankfully, [01:13:40] I’ve never had any really bad mistakes, you know. Have I had complaints? Yeah, of course I have. Everybody has.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:13:45] So what happened with that patient that you did their face, but they were still unhappy? I just [01:13:50] you couldn’t make them happy.

Nyree Whitley: I just saw them lots of times and just would not do any more. Recognised that I would not [01:13:55] do any more on them. I only did one lot of fillers for her, but just recognised that, you know, [01:14:00] just to talk to her about the fact that I thought she needed to see somebody for [01:14:05] help, because I didn’t think she had a problem and an issue, and I said I didn’t think I could [01:14:10] help her any further. So, you know, you have.

Payman Langroudi: To have that conversation Did she take that [01:14:15] badly?

Nyree Whitley: She just. She would have gone to the next person, right? Who would have given her more stuff and [01:14:20] done more fillers and stuff on her that wasn’t, you know, that wasn’t going to be me. Um, [01:14:25] you know, corporate mistakes.

Payman Langroudi: Mistakes you’ve made in this corporate role. [01:14:30]

Nyree Whitley: Oh, it was it’s things like we as a business made a [01:14:35] mistake when when I first came into ID, as was I remember [01:14:40] my clinical director at the time who was my boss, telling me I only learned very late [01:14:45] on that we were being acquired by ID. I remember him saying, could he come to my house to talk [01:14:50] to me? And you kind of think that’s not normal? You kind of think, I don’t think I’ve done anything wrong. And he told [01:14:55] me about the acquisition, and I just remember taking a sharp intake of breath. And I kind of went, huh? [01:15:00] Because what’s.

Payman Langroudi: Going to happen.

Nyree Whitley: Next? I’m not sure I want to work for them. They had a bad reputation at [01:15:05] the time. I thought, that doesn’t really align with my values. They kind of, you know, the [01:15:10] perception of them. And when I first came into this business, [01:15:15] there was the thing of. They were telling dentists and [01:15:20] they had targets around Udas and we had to. Align with that as a clinical [01:15:25] team. And you would talk to clinicians about the fact that they hadn’t achieved their target, [01:15:30] and that was wrong. And we recognised that was wrong as a business. It definitely wasn’t my idea. But, [01:15:35] you know, did I being new into the business, speak up about it soon enough? Probably [01:15:40] not. No.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Nyree Whitley: You know you’ve frightened out, you know, you want to keep your job and it’s new [01:15:45] and it’s, you know management. And I’d never been in a big PE owned business before. We [01:15:50] were just privately owned by two guys who were great at dental care.

Payman Langroudi: Dental care was how many practices. [01:15:55]

Nyree Whitley: About 30 mostly in Wales, a couple over in Suffolk, which is a bit random.

Payman Langroudi: Totally different, isn’t it? [01:16:00] Completely private business where you can literally change things overnight.

Nyree Whitley: And you all the clinicians?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:16:05] So did you find that you were quite good at corporate? Let’s just call it for the sake of [01:16:10] it Politicking. Yeah. So where did you get that from? Were you just naturally [01:16:15] quite good at that?

Nyree Whitley: It’s just naturally inherent. I didn’t do a course to learn it. I like people, [01:16:20] and I think it’s just years of working with people. I think as dentists, you know, we have [01:16:25] to be you have to be very diplomatic with people every [01:16:30] day. And so I think it’s what I learned through being a dentist. And I’m very [01:16:35] I’m very transparent. I’m not known for hiding what I think. [01:16:40] I’m rubbish at poker because you can tell on my face exactly what I think. Now, I’ve [01:16:45] been told that’s a strength and a weakness sometimes, you know? A lot of people say we love it. [01:16:50] You say it as it is. People who work for me, there’s no backstabbing. They will know exactly if [01:16:55] I’m not happy with what they’re doing or don’t agree, I will tell them sometimes. Maybe that’s hard to [01:17:00] take, but at least they know where where they are with me. So from that perspective, I don’t [01:17:05] think I’m political because I don’t. I don’t like spin. Yeah, despise. [01:17:10]

Payman Langroudi: I think political is the wrong word. Just just the way that you have to behave in a corporate environment. [01:17:15] Yeah, yeah, it’s very, very different.

Nyree Whitley: It is very.

Payman Langroudi: Different in a private environment. Yeah. So did you take to that [01:17:20] very easily because of, because what you’re saying. Yeah. As a dentist you have to be diplomatic. But [01:17:25] but I can imagine so many dentists I’m thinking of would, would, would struggle with [01:17:30] opinionated dentistry. Um, do you ever struggle with that? [01:17:35] Do you ever struggle with the idea that, you know, you can’t make quick changes?

Nyree Whitley: No, we’re a [01:17:40] supertanker. I know it takes a while for us to turn. You have to accept that. Otherwise you’d just be really frustrated. [01:17:45]

Payman Langroudi: However, you guys are better at it than than some. Though I’ve noticed we are. [01:17:50]

Nyree Whitley: And I couldn’t. I tell you, I couldn’t work for the NHS. I [01:17:55] mean, I even go in. My youngest is having orthodontic treatment. Her orthodontist is [01:18:00] amazing, but I go and every time she has an appointment and the inefficiencies [01:18:05] in the system drives me Drives me insane. And the way, you [01:18:10] know, even just things like when you need another appointment, they don’t make you the appointment. They say, no, we’ve got to post [01:18:15] it to you. So I was like, so you’ve got to pay for postage. You’re going to send me an appointment. You haven’t consulted me [01:18:20] about whether I can do it or not. I’ve then got to take my time to try and ring you to change it. That’s [01:18:25] crazy. That is crazy.

Payman Langroudi: You know what? I sometimes see it as is, you know, [01:18:30] TSA, you know, the airport security.

Nyree Whitley: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. In airport security. You know that feeling [01:18:35] that you’re just, like, trotting down with your head down, trying to just do what you’re told, and then you see the [01:18:40] the security people, they’re kind of sometimes they’re joking and laughing between themselves and loving it. Having a great day. Yeah. [01:18:45] And any like, you know, anywhere where the number of call [01:18:50] it customers. Yeah. Is guaranteed. Mhm. In the end the [01:18:55] business becomes a little bit complacent when it comes to making customers happy [01:19:00] because there’s another customer and another one and another one. You don’t have to fight for the customer. You have to [01:19:05] fight for word of mouth. And the NHS is a bit like that. There’s an unlimited number of patients and. [01:19:10]

Nyree Whitley: But they take so long to make a decision.

Payman Langroudi: Well, it’s not focussed on making [01:19:15] patients happy.

Nyree Whitley: Who make the decisions. Don’t even understand the stuff underneath that. Sorry [01:19:20] NHS ministers and things, but you don’t.

Payman Langroudi: I think I think a lot of [01:19:25] them themselves recognise that to MPP.

Nyree Whitley: So we’re halfway [01:19:30] through January and they haven’t decided whether MPP is continuing or not in March.

Payman Langroudi: Explain [01:19:35] what that is to people.

Nyree Whitley: New patient premium. So where there is a premium for seeing new patients, an additional [01:19:40] amount for seeing some bantus as well as banned ones, it has increased the [01:19:45] access to new patients accessing NHS dentistry. No, not all the money has been spent. [01:19:50] But any access, you know, any improvement is great. So for us who strategically [01:19:55] are trying to decide do our budgets for next year, financial year end March, we’re [01:20:00] going we’re going to have MPP. We’re not what’s going to happen with our patients. Do we Do we [01:20:05] need to pivot those patients then are they going to what are dentists going to do? Are dentists still going [01:20:10] to continue to see the same number of NHS patients or will they go. No, I’m not seeing [01:20:15] you NHS patients now. I’m going to go back to seeing private new patients only. Yeah [01:20:20] it’s crazy.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What would be your next [01:20:25] move if there was a next move? I mean, would you move to a job that had nothing to do with dentistry?

Nyree Whitley: I [01:20:30] would consider it, but I love dentistry. You know, it is. It would be healthcare because [01:20:35] I believe passionately in trying to help people. As you know, part of the reason I went into dentistry. So [01:20:40] to go out of that altogether, I think I would struggle with. So it would be more I’d love to be a CEO [01:20:45] of a healthcare company. I will be a CEO of a healthcare company.

Payman Langroudi: Is that right? [01:20:50] Yeah. I like that. I like that. We’ve come to the end of our time, but I’m going to end it with [01:20:55] the same questions that we always end it with. Okay. Fantasy [01:21:00] dinner party.

Nyree Whitley: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests. Okay. Dead or [01:21:05] alive, who would you have?

Nyree Whitley: Dead. One. Marilyn. Marilyn. Monroe. [01:21:10]

Payman Langroudi: Ah!

Nyree Whitley: I would love to know about what really happened. I used to love reading books [01:21:15] about her when I was young. I used to love her films. And so I’m intrigued to know the truth. [01:21:20] I definitely don’t think you know we’re anywhere near the truth. So definitely her.

Payman Langroudi: Candle in the wind.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. [01:21:25] Yeah, exactly. So that would be I would and [01:21:30] this is not sycophantic, but I would love to have the younger me go [01:21:35] on. Um, I would love to tell me not to worry so much about things. [01:21:40] To be confident in your own convictions, you know, not to worry about, [01:21:45] um, you know, stereotyping about being, you know, a female in [01:21:50] things. And just to go with your gut. I would love [01:21:55] to do that. I mean, I’m super happy in my career and I’ve had a great life, and [01:22:00] I genuinely am a very happy person. But as a teenager, I think I worried a lot about. [01:22:05] Yeah. And you know, and a lot about I mean, thankfully I’m not growing up in this [01:22:10] day and age, but I worried so much about what I look like and what other people [01:22:15] thought of me. Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: As an aside, being a woman [01:22:20] in dentistry or a woman in the corporate world.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do you still think [01:22:25] that there’s disadvantages to glass ceilings or do you think that’s all in dentistry. [01:22:30]

Nyree Whitley: Definitely not. I mean, there’s more women in dentistry than there are men, aren’t there? Um, [01:22:35] in the corporate world, it does still make a difference. It does. And you know what also makes a difference? [01:22:40] Being small. I’m only five foot three. My sister is five foot ten. [01:22:45] She’s a doctor. She commands much more of a presence in the room than me because I’m [01:22:50] little. I wish I was a bit taller.

Payman Langroudi: I think there was some. There was some. There was some research about Harvard [01:22:55] graduates that their height was more relevant to their business success than their [01:23:00] final year score completely.

Nyree Whitley: But it was what it was.

Payman Langroudi: My daughter. What do you mean? In [01:23:05] the business world, do you find sometimes you’re in a room full of men and and and the atmosphere [01:23:10] is masculine and.

Nyree Whitley: No, not that.

Payman Langroudi: I just say people already have preconceived notions [01:23:15] of.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. Particularly, you know, I’m small, I’m blonde, long hair [01:23:20] and everything else. I like makeup, I like nice clothes, so. But sometimes I love that sometimes [01:23:25] they can have a preconceived view of me and then it’s great.

Payman Langroudi: As in, they underestimate you.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. Yeah. [01:23:30]

Payman Langroudi: Do you still think that goes on? Yeah, without a doubt.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, 100%. [01:23:35]

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Nyree Whitley: Everywhere, you know. And I don’t encounter it a lot, but I do encounter [01:23:40] it sometimes a lot less now than I used to be.

Payman Langroudi: You know, women dentists [01:23:45] talk about not enough lady speakers. Yeah. And we’ve talked [01:23:50] about it a lot. But why? Why are they not enough lady speakers? And there’s an element of [01:23:55] it, you could say, oh, old boys network, all of that stuff. There’s an element of it where women don’t [01:24:00] put themselves forward.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, I think we just busy, right. So particularly if you have a family because [01:24:05] you’re expected to do the family as well as the career. And I know, you know, a lot of men do just as [01:24:10] much as women in families now, but it’s still that traditional role.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:24:15] I mean, even things like asking for a pay rise. Yeah. You know, you [01:24:20] know, you’re in corporate. I find in the end, people who ask tend to get [01:24:25] it quicker than people who don’t ask. But I prefer people who don’t ask. And [01:24:30] for me, it’s a real tension.

Nyree Whitley: I always have an issue with that with regard to even our clinicians and people [01:24:35] within the business. So people that kick and scream and shout end up getting it. And your loyal [01:24:40] people that just carry on that do a great job, they don’t get it. It drives me insane. [01:24:45]

Payman Langroudi: Me too. But I’m guilty of it myself. Yeah. Because if someone’s asking and I’m worried, are they going to [01:24:50] leave or whatever? You know, they’re crucial people.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah. Some people are not frightened of calling people’s bluff, are they? [01:24:55] But a lot of people are. They don’t ask because then I might get told, you know. No. Well, fine. Go.

Payman Langroudi: Who’s [01:25:00] your next guest? Yourself. From age 14. Marilyn Monroe. [01:25:05]

Nyree Whitley: And actually, you know what? I would love my sport. When I was younger, uh, was [01:25:10] hurdles. Sprint hurdles. Um. And I would love Colin Jackson because he was my [01:25:15] hero when I was younger. And I think he’s always been really well represented the sport [01:25:20] both athletically and, you know, the way he presented himself himself. [01:25:25] For sure. For sure. So I’d love to have him there too. Excellent. And he’s Welsh. [01:25:30]

Payman Langroudi: That’s right, that’s right. Um. Final question.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:25:35] deathbed question. Okay. On your deathbed, surrounded by your loved ones grandchildren’s [01:25:40] grandchildren. Whatever. Yeah. What are the three pieces of advice that you would leave [01:25:45] to them? Mhm.

Nyree Whitley: Um. Am I allowed to swear?

Payman Langroudi: Of [01:25:50] course. Yeah. Encourage it.

Nyree Whitley: So I have a picture on my kitchen wall [01:25:55] that my children say is say it’s most inappropriate, but that I love. And I kind of [01:26:00] live by to a certain extent. And it says a wise woman once said, fuck [01:26:05] this shit. And she lived happily ever after. And [01:26:10] it is just don’t have regrets. Go with your gut.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:26:15] the thing is, if you trust your gut. Yeah, yeah. There’s some people whose [01:26:20] gut are more trustable than others. You know, like some. Some people just have a gut instinct and they [01:26:25] go with it, and it works.

Nyree Whitley: You only ever regret the things that you don’t do, though, right? Because I’m not saying [01:26:30] the things we do is always right. But like dentistry, that’s how you learn. I mean, don’t get me [01:26:35] wrong. Be kind. Right? And that is one of my other things that I always say that I’ve absolutely instilled in my [01:26:40] children. Be kind to people. You never know what people are going through. I will never [01:26:45] forget this has stayed with me for such a long time. I was good at sport when I was younger. [01:26:50] I remember in P.E., I laughed at Yvonne Tansley. I remember her name [01:26:55] in school. I was probably about 13. I laughed at her in P.E. because when she ran, her [01:27:00] legs kind of went out to the side. And I remember my P.E. teacher tearing [01:27:05] a strip off me, rightly so, and saying, how dare you laugh at somebody else? [01:27:10] She is trying. You are good at all these things. Don’t ever undermine [01:27:15] somebody else. And that is it. Is that being with you? Yeah, absolutely. [01:27:20] Being kind and never forgetting. You do not know what people have got going [01:27:25] on behind the curtains.

Payman Langroudi: Is that your second piece of advice?

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, that’s my second piece of advice. And [01:27:30] the other one is just get up at five. People who get [01:27:35] up at five. Okay, I do close to five, but that’s because I got to put makeup on. Um, getting up at 5:00 [01:27:40] makes you a much more productive person. You achieve so much [01:27:45] more. And having that time effectively to yourself. Okay, I choose to do exercise [01:27:50] with that time. You can choose to do whatever you want with it. Meditate. Me what’s rubbish TV [01:27:55] if you want to.

Payman Langroudi: How long have you been doing that for?

Nyree Whitley: Oh, I’ve always done sport and exercise, but getting up. [01:28:00]

Payman Langroudi: At the 5 a.m. thing.

Nyree Whitley: Um, probably about 8 or 9 [01:28:05] years.

Payman Langroudi: So before that, you were just a normal person.

Nyree Whitley: I well, no, I probably used to get [01:28:10] up about six. Then I always got up early.

Payman Langroudi: Normal.

Nyree Whitley: I’ve always got up early. Always got up [01:28:15] early. But five has been about eight.

Payman Langroudi: And nine was the a night time person?

Nyree Whitley: Um, yeah. He [01:28:20] didn’t get up as early as me.

Payman Langroudi: Because it was the couples. You see this one early, one late [01:28:25] person trying to avoid each other.

Nyree Whitley: Yeah, exactly. He would stay up drinking red wine and I’d [01:28:30] be go to bed reading my book. It’s probably why it didn’t work.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:28:35] been a massive pleasure. Yeah, I’ve. I’ve learnt a lot. I’ve learnt a lot, particularly about your, your your [01:28:40] attitude, the way you think about things. It’s very, very simple, which is nice. [01:28:45] Yeah. Very simple.

Nyree Whitley: Not a complex person. I am what I am what I says. Says on the tin. [01:28:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but it doesn’t. It doesn’t seem like you worry about too many things. You’re quite simple. And [01:28:55] I guess that’s what you’re saying about your younger self. Used to worry about this?

Nyree Whitley: Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much for coming all the [01:29:00] way. I know you’ve been trying to organise this for. I think it’s years.

Nyree Whitley: Sorry. It has been ages. Has [01:29:05] been ages. Amazing. Thank you so much.

Payman Langroudi: Bye.

[VOICE]: This [01:29:10] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one [01:29:15] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:29:20] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:29:25] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just [01:29:30] a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say [01:29:35] and what our guests has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

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