Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by enlighten. Enlighten is an advanced teeth whitening system. Join [00:00:05] us for online training, where I’ll take you through everything you need to know about how to [00:00:10] assess a case quickly, how to use the system, how to talk to patients. Because when [00:00:15] you know you can deliver brilliant results, it’s so much easier to talk about it. To book your course, which takes [00:00:20] only an hour. It’s completely free. Visit enlighten online training.com. [00:00:25] Now let’s get to the pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The podcast [00:00:35] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:40] hosts Payman Langroudi [00:00:45] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: Working for a corporate. [00:00:50] In this case, working for my dentist. Um, it’s going to be an interesting [00:00:55] podcast. We’ve got we’ve got a few people working at my dentist at different levels in different practices, [00:01:00] and try to get the sort of the story of how it is to work for [00:01:05] them and how it is to work for a corporate in general, and obviously in the normal way [00:01:10] that we do with this podcast. Sort of the career story of the people. So it gives me great pleasure [00:01:15] to invite or to to welcome Claire Stenhouse onto the podcast. Claire is a [00:01:20] hygienist therapist at my dentist in Skegness. In Skegness. [00:01:25] Yeah. Well done for coming all this way, Claire. Okay. Hey, um, I [00:01:30] think we’ve got to start with, you know, Claire, you do a lot of, uh, teeth whitening.

Claire Stenhouse: I do. [00:01:35]

Payman Langroudi: Which is. Which is why I’m so interested in you. Um. And you are a therapist, too. [00:01:40]

Claire Stenhouse: I am.

Payman Langroudi: And yet we have a lot of hygienists who don’t get involved [00:01:45] in things outside of just hygiene.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So in [00:01:50] your career, was there a moment where you decided you were going to sort of branch out? [00:01:55]

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah, I mean, I typically do a lot of [00:02:00] National Health Service fill ins. Um, that’s my normal day.

Payman Langroudi: Adults as.

Claire Stenhouse: Well. Adults [00:02:05] and children. And, uh. I suppose [00:02:10] doing National Health Service work is what I love doing. But all [00:02:15] day, every day it gets a bit tedious. So that’s why I decided that I wanted to branch out a little [00:02:20] bit. And then, of course, I got the call from Michelle Holmes asking if I wanted to [00:02:25] trial the enlighten, and it’s just all gone from there. Really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but why is it that you [00:02:30] find it so easy to talk to patients about the colour of their teeth, whereas we’ve [00:02:35] got loads of even dentists who really worry about it?

Claire Stenhouse: I think the [00:02:40] hygiene side of that brings that along quite nicely, because [00:02:45] people come in saying that they’ve got a lot of staining on the teeth, so then you’ve got the opportunity [00:02:50] to talk to them about having an airflow or having whitening. If they want something more Something more [00:02:55] pertinent than they can have the whitening done. So I think the hygiene side of that makes [00:03:00] it a lot easier to do the whitening.

Payman Langroudi: So is that typically the kind of patient that you end up whitening, someone who’s got the recurrent [00:03:05] staining? Yeah, because when I was a dentist, that was obvious. It seems so obvious, isn’t it? Someone’s got some imbrication [00:03:10] in the lowest. Yeah. Constantly staining, constantly having to come and have it cleaned off. Why [00:03:15] don’t we just make you some trays so that you don’t have this problem again? Yeah, yeah, it seems so obvious, isn’t it?

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah, it is quite [00:03:20] obvious. And I always say when we’re doing an air flow, I always say it’s not going to whiten your teeth, it’s just going to brighten [00:03:25] your teeth. So if you’d like them whitening, the only way forward is to obviously have them whitened. [00:03:30] And that’s how we go from there.

Payman Langroudi: And were you doing any whitening before enlighten.

Claire Stenhouse: I used to do [00:03:35] the Philips Zoom. Yeah. Um I did quite a few cases of that to be honest, but.

Payman Langroudi: They were already [00:03:40] kind of in that mode.

Claire Stenhouse: Already. Yeah, but that took two hours. So it was full. [00:03:45] Yeah. Full on. Yeah. So that was two hours of my day list gone. [00:03:50] Um, so yeah. Then enlighten just seems to work for us.

Payman Langroudi: And so [00:03:55] what percentage of your work now is non-scaling Polish? Is it the majority [00:04:00] of your work?

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I’d say 6040. So 40. [00:04:05] Cleaning 60. Everything else? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so in a typical day, [00:04:10] you’re doing how many fillings?

Claire Stenhouse: Ten.

[TRANSITION]: Maybe ten fillings a day.

Claire Stenhouse: Ten fillings [00:04:15] a day. Well, ten patients that need fillings a day. And then private work on top of that. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so [00:04:20] what happens when when a patient comes in. How do they end up with you? Does a dentist push [00:04:25] them towards you or.

Claire Stenhouse: So they’ll come in for a check-up with the dentist and then they’ll prescribe the treatment [00:04:30] to the therapist? However, current, um, regulations [00:04:35] have come in. Now that we don’t need a prescription, we can work to our own initiative so we can do check-ups as well. Now. [00:04:40] Oh, right. Yeah. We, um, we’ve got exemptions from local anaesthetic. We’ve got exemptions [00:04:45] from fluoride varnish. The only thing we haven’t got exemptions from is a whitening [00:04:50] prescription.

Payman Langroudi: You need a need a prescription.

Claire Stenhouse: Still need a prescription for that. But yeah, for a local anaesthetic and [00:04:55] fluoride varnish. We don’t need a prescription anymore.

Payman Langroudi: And how about that? Is there a moment where someone has to explain [00:05:00] to the patient that you’re a therapist, not a dentist?

Claire Stenhouse: Not anymore. Because I’ve been there for 15 years and we don’t take [00:05:05] on new patients. So all the patients know that I am a therapist and not a dentist. [00:05:10]

Payman Langroudi: Um, that conversation must have to happen at some point.

Claire Stenhouse: It does. So what did you say?

Payman Langroudi: What [00:05:15] did you say about it?

Claire Stenhouse: I don’t. So, um, we trained with the dentists [00:05:20] at dental school. We did a lot of our, um, lessons with the dentists at dental school. [00:05:25] But then the dentists go on and do the more complex work than the therapists. [00:05:30] So that’s how we try to explain it. Um, which, yeah, a lot of patients are more [00:05:35] than happy with.

Payman Langroudi: And forgive me for not really knowing, but what happens? Let’s say you’re doing an [00:05:40] mod and it suddenly turns very, very deep. Do you stop and.

Claire Stenhouse: Call [00:05:45] the dentist? I’m very, very lucky at my practice that I can call one of the dentists through at any point [00:05:50] for advice. So yes, I’ll sometimes put a temporary in and then refer it back to the dentist. [00:05:55] Book an appointment with a dentist. But I’m very lucky in the fact that most of them will just come through there [00:06:00] and then and have a look for me and tell me next stage.

Payman Langroudi: And we had you on mini [00:06:05] smile makeover for the anterior composites.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re going to come again [00:06:10] and all that. But do you have any further have you had any further training on restorative [00:06:15] after your course?

Claire Stenhouse: No. Just no. Just the mini smile makeover.

Payman Langroudi: So for posteriors, [00:06:20] you for instance, do you sectional matrices, do you use rubber dam. What do you.

Claire Stenhouse: Do. So I [00:06:25] normally on posterior teeth I’m working on the NHS so I’m afraid it’s a good old fashioned [00:06:30] amalgam or amalgam. Yeah we still use we’re still. Yeah we’re still on amalgam. [00:06:35]

Payman Langroudi: So you’re not doing any private therapy fillings.

Claire Stenhouse: Occasionally. [00:06:40] Not very. So if a patient comes in and they’d like a composite filling, then I do offer them, um, [00:06:45] the chance of having a private one. But the thing is, I’m not that confident with [00:06:50] them, to be honest. So I’m going to come back on the anterior course and then maybe go [00:06:55] on posterior.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you know, what we found was I don’t know if by the time you came we’d stopped doing it yet, [00:07:00] but we used to give a prize for the best.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. You did.

Payman Langroudi: And therapists and therapists constantly winning [00:07:05] that prize. Now, I don’t know if it’s a self-selecting thing, because the kind of therapist who [00:07:10] pays £1,000 to come on a composite course might be the kind who’s really into it.

Claire Stenhouse: Really into it. Yeah. [00:07:15]

Payman Langroudi: For whatever reason it is, the therapist is doing better work than the dentist.

Claire Stenhouse: Told me that last time. [00:07:20] Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which is. Which is interesting.

Claire Stenhouse: When I come on the fifth and sixth, sixth and seventh, I will try my hardest [00:07:25] to to win that prize.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about your journey into therapy. [00:07:30] Were you a dental nurse?

Claire Stenhouse: 17 years? Yeah, as a dental nurse.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what made you decide [00:07:35] 17 years in to do? Make make the change.

Claire Stenhouse: I went to my boss one day and said, um, [00:07:40] I don’t just really want to do dental nursing for the rest of my life. Is there anything you can advise me? [00:07:45] And he just said to me, why don’t you don’t you apply to go to university? And I applied and I got [00:07:50] an interview and I got offered a place.

Payman Langroudi: It was supposed to be really super competitive.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. And I.

Payman Langroudi: Think. Did [00:07:55] you study.

Claire Stenhouse: Sheffield? I think because it wasn’t something that I’d always wanted to do, [00:08:00] and it therapy was very new at that point when I went to university. So [00:08:05] it wasn’t really something that I’d thought about. So I think because I wasn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Invested [00:08:10] a lot psychologically.

Claire Stenhouse: I wasn’t I was quite relaxed about the whole thing. [00:08:15] So I don’t know whether that helped me get through the interview. I don’t know. I don’t know, but yeah, I [00:08:20] went for the interview, offered the place, and.

Payman Langroudi: I’d like to understand, like what happened 17 years into nursing. Did [00:08:25] something happen that made you think now’s the time?

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah, I just got a bit. I think my kids had [00:08:30] gone to school at that point, and I just felt as if I was in a bit of a rut, and I just wanted to [00:08:35] do something else. But I’ve always worked in dentistry since I was 16, so I didn’t really want to leave [00:08:40] dentistry. So I just had a word with my boss and he said, why don’t you just try? I think it was. [00:08:45] He said, why don’t you try for hygiene? But then when I applied, it had changed [00:08:50] to a therapy course. It was therapy. So.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And it’s full time course. Yeah. Did you have to save up and [00:08:55] pay for it or pay for your life?

Claire Stenhouse: Bizarrely, it was paid by the National Health Service. [00:09:00] Oh, really? And they also paid me a bursary to go to university, which I [00:09:05] think was about £600 a month.

Payman Langroudi: I didn’t think that sort of thing existed.

Claire Stenhouse: And I think the course [00:09:10] was £18,000 a year.

Payman Langroudi: They paid all of that.

Claire Stenhouse: They paid all of it.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, goodness.

Claire Stenhouse: And I hardly [00:09:15] took any student loans out either, so I never I never lost anything.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe you lucked out. It was like a moment [00:09:20] where they decided we need therapy.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah, but then it stopped. So when. So when I finished [00:09:25] university, there was no, like, big. You’ve got to come and work for the NHS. [00:09:30] I think I went and worked privately for the first two years. I didn’t even work for the NHS. But yeah, they paid for [00:09:35] for everything, which was bizarre. And it’s only now. I mean, I’ve been a therapist for 15 years. [00:09:40] It’s only now that the NHS is saying we need we we need therapists. [00:09:45] Um, and they’ve given us the exemptions. I’ve now got a performer number so I [00:09:50] can open a course of treatment. So it’s only 15 years in that they’re [00:09:55] saying, yeah, you can work on the NHS.

Payman Langroudi: So and if someone, if someone’s a nurse listening to this.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. [00:10:00]

Payman Langroudi: And they’re considering, you know, and you know I feel like our profession definitely [00:10:05] on the DCP side, it’s just there isn’t enough sort of movement [00:10:10] and career sort of progression.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So if someone’s thinking, look, I’m nursing, I’m a good nurse, I [00:10:15] like my job, but I want to do something more.

Claire Stenhouse: Same as I did. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: What what what.

Payman Langroudi: Would you [00:10:20] say are the biggest differences? Like, you know, for instance, now, I guess you have to worry [00:10:25] about the GDC breathing down your neck. Yeah. Whereas as a nurse you don’t. Yeah.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah you [00:10:30] do.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah yeah. But I just made that up. I mean yeah, the considerations [00:10:35] that someone should be thinking about what makes what makes it something to go [00:10:40] for And what surprised you about it? For instance?

Claire Stenhouse: It’s hard work. It’s very stressful. [00:10:45] I don’t know whether I can say go, go, go for it. It’s it’s rewarding. [00:10:50] But I think a lot of the dentists [00:10:55] refer a lot of children to me. Yeah. I [00:11:00] don’t think a lot of the dentists particularly like working with children. It’s [00:11:05] harder, it’s harder. So they refer it to me. So from 3 p.m. till 5 [00:11:10] p.m., you’re just kids on a daily basis. It’s just kids, really. And by 5:00, my [00:11:15] head is blown. It’s really, really hard work. So it’s very stressful. It’s [00:11:20] very stressful. But then I’m a therapist on the NHS. So a therapist working purely [00:11:25] privately.

Payman Langroudi: How long do you get for a filling on a kid?

Claire Stenhouse: 20 minutes.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah 20 minutes. [00:11:30]

Payman Langroudi: La oh you don’t give LA to.

Claire Stenhouse: Kids. No not particularly. No no depending on age and tooth but no [00:11:35] not not necessarily.

Payman Langroudi: What about if it’s an adult m.o.

Claire Stenhouse: 20 minutes.

Payman Langroudi: 40 minutes. [00:11:40] Beginning to end.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well, no wonder, no wonder they’re sending patients to you.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. [00:11:45] But then I’ve been doing it for 15 years, so. Yeah, yeah. When I first qualified, [00:11:50] when I was at university, we had an hour and a half. Yeah. On clinic to do. To do a filling. [00:11:55] And when I first went in to work in my first NHS job, I think I was given [00:12:00] 40 minutes for a filling and I panicked. I was like, there is no way that I can do [00:12:05] a buckle, buckle, cup of tea in 40 minutes. But you just.

Payman Langroudi: About the course [00:12:10] itself, did it surprise you how difficult that was? Because when I got into dental school, it just blew me away.

Claire Stenhouse: How difficult [00:12:15] it was. A lot of our lectures were with the BDA students, and they’d [00:12:20] done physics, chemistry, biology. I hadn’t I’d done biology [00:12:25] at school a long time ago.

Payman Langroudi: O-level?

Claire Stenhouse: No, it wasn’t [00:12:30] O-level. What was it before that? Uh, no, it was it was O-level. Yeah. Um, and [00:12:35] a lot of our lectures were with the BDS students and it baffled [00:12:40] me. Absolutely baffled me. I didn’t understand it and I used to.

Payman Langroudi: Find exams hard.

Claire Stenhouse: No, [00:12:45] no, not after a while. Because what I did is I used to go home and I used to go on [00:12:50] BBC bitesize. Oh, yeah. And I used to start from the scratch with with the things until [00:12:55] I understood it, because. What a swap. Yeah. No, um, but [00:13:00] that was the way that I got through it. I learned all the basics, but yeah, it was really hard. Really hard. And I [00:13:05] think it’s even harder now.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s harder in many ways. Right. It’s hard in the sort of the [00:13:10] book part of it. Yeah. The reading and all that understanding. And I remember thinking sometimes [00:13:15] I was a kid, you know, I was 18 or 19 years old. Sometimes a lecturer would say something and I’d for [00:13:20] myself decide, nah, this isn’t important. Yeah. And then two weeks later, you realise none of that was important.

Claire Stenhouse: Really [00:13:25] important. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so, because it’s a word you’ve not heard, or you just get a feeling from the person that this [00:13:30] isn’t important. Um, you realise soon that this is the absolute minimum you need to know [00:13:35] it’s nowhere near the maximum.

Claire Stenhouse: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And then on the other side of it, the first time you do [00:13:40] a filling, the first time you do an endo, the first time you do a crown, prep whatever it is, the first time it’s, [00:13:45] it’s it’s heartbreakingly difficult. Right.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. No it is.

Payman Langroudi: On a patient. [00:13:50]

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. And you’ve not got your tutor stood behind you, guiding you through it. You’re on your own.

Payman Langroudi: And did you do. You must have [00:13:55] done some phantom head stuff as well, right.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. We yeah, we did we, we had, um, I think we had six [00:14:00] months just doing hygiene on phantom heads before we were allowed to go on to fillings. Yeah. Yeah. [00:14:05] But then we did all our phantom head work with the BDS students as well. But it was very competitive. [00:14:10] Yeah. Yeah. At university? Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then. So this brings me [00:14:15] nicely on to this part of the pod that I like to talk about, sort of the darker part [00:14:20] of the pod where we like to discuss mistakes.

Claire Stenhouse: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and it comes [00:14:25] from black box thinking, and it’s about, you know, the fact that we tend to hide our mistakes in the medical world because [00:14:30] in the medical world, we kind of like to assign blame to mistakes. Um, [00:14:35] but then what that means is I don’t learn from yours. And you don’t learn from mine. Yeah, absolutely. So to [00:14:40] buck that trend, what comes to mind when I say what clinical errors have you made?

Claire Stenhouse: I [00:14:45] have given somebody an ID block on the wrong side. I’ve done that. Yeah yeah, [00:14:50] yeah. And the left right mistakes. I’ve done that.

Payman Langroudi: Well, [00:14:55] how did you. What happened?

Claire Stenhouse: What happened? I just had to apologise to the patient and ask her.

Payman Langroudi: The patient realised before you did.

Claire Stenhouse: No, [00:15:00] no, she didn’t have a clue. Even though I’d already said to her we’re doing a filling on the lower right. And then I numbed [00:15:05] up the lower left.

Payman Langroudi: Um, were they understanding?

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. She was. She was absolutely fine. Um, yeah, she [00:15:10] was fine.

Payman Langroudi: What did you did you then give the other side? No, I didn’t send [00:15:15] them home like that.

Claire Stenhouse: Um, no, I yeah, she came back about a couple of days later, and. Yeah, she was absolutely fine. Um, [00:15:20] at university, um, on one of my practical exams, they asked me to, [00:15:25] um, fill a lower left seven mod. I did a cracking job. It was a beautiful amalgam [00:15:30] filling. Only I’d done had done it in the sixth. So that is something that I don’t do anymore because [00:15:35] I failed and I had to go back two months, I think. Um, so it.

Payman Langroudi: Wasn’t a real patient.

Claire Stenhouse: It wasn’t [00:15:40] a real patient. But I think, um, that’s now like I checked three times before I fill [00:15:45] a tooth.

Payman Langroudi: What about a management thing where just like, what comes to mind when I say, who’s your most difficult [00:15:50] patient? Not necessarily from the clinical aspect of a patient who, you know, you [00:15:55] end up losing trust or, you know, you must. You know, one thing I noticed [00:16:00] is sometimes you get a patient who’s really rude to the nurse, and then when [00:16:05] the dentist comes in, they’re sweet as pie.

Claire Stenhouse: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: What’s that situation like that. You know a patient.

Claire Stenhouse: I am [00:16:10] I think I’m at that age now where.

Payman Langroudi: No one.

Claire Stenhouse: Dares. No. And if somebody’s rude to me [00:16:15] I am actually rude but not rude back but I will, I won’t take it. Um, [00:16:20] but that’s only come in like the last 5 or 6 years. But if somebody is rude to my nurse as well, I will [00:16:25] say.

Payman Langroudi: Pull them.

Claire Stenhouse: Up on it. Yeah, I will say you can’t speak to her.

Payman Langroudi: So what comes to mind when I say it. Your [00:16:30] most difficult patient.

Claire Stenhouse: I’ve got loads.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Go on. What comes to.

Claire Stenhouse: Mind? What comes to [00:16:35] mind? Um. Oh, crikey. You know, put me [00:16:40] on the spot.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you know, there’s patients who can’t go back very far. The patients who complain, complain, complain [00:16:45] about something.

Claire Stenhouse: I had a patient in on Tuesday who was [00:16:50] booked in for upper left six.

Payman Langroudi: Filling.

Claire Stenhouse: Filling. [00:16:55] And I said I’m just going to pop your chair back. And he said, I can’t lie down. And I said, I’m really sorry. [00:17:00] I can’t see what I’m doing unless you lay down. And he said, But I’ve got a bad back. And I said, [00:17:05] well, I’ll be perfectly honest with you. I also have a bad back. I said, if if I lean over, I’m [00:17:10] going to be out for a couple of days. I said, but if you want to rebook with somebody else, then that’s perfectly fine. And he said, [00:17:15] no, I’ll do it. And then he said, my wife won’t be able to lay [00:17:20] back if you need to treat her. And I said, well, if she’s ever offered an appointment with me, I suggest you don’t [00:17:25] book it and let her see somewhere else. And he was fine all the All the way through the appointment. I kept checking that he was all right, [00:17:30] asking him if he was okay. Yeah, yeah. Went out to reception and complained and said to the [00:17:35] receptionist, do you think it’s fair that I had to lay back just because she’s got a bad back?

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. [00:17:40]

Claire Stenhouse: Typical patient. Yeah we get that a lot.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:17:45] what happened. Nothing.

Claire Stenhouse: Nothing. I don’t think they’ve put a formal complaint [00:17:50] in. But you never know these days do you.

Payman Langroudi: Have you ever had a formal complaint.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah I had one not long ago. About [00:17:55] three weeks ago.

Payman Langroudi: What happened?

Claire Stenhouse: Um, so a child came in, [00:18:00] was referred to me for six extractions. Um, A’s, [00:18:05] B’s and C’s. All were mobile.

Payman Langroudi: Do you do extractions as well?

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. I’m on deciduous [00:18:10] teeth. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Claire Stenhouse: Came in with grandma. Um, I’d already [00:18:15] seen him the week before for fillings. And I’d said to grandma, we’re just going [00:18:20] to do the fillings today and try and get him used to coming to see us. Came in for extractions. [00:18:25] They were grade three mobile, so I just used jail. Didn’t give an injection. It was only [00:18:30] I think it was 7 or 8. Um, put the gel on [00:18:35] and left it for two minutes. Talked to the patient, talked to Nana, made everybody nice and comfortable. Um, [00:18:40] went to take his tooth out, which was hanging out, and [00:18:45] he screamed. But I had already got the tooth, so I just took it out. And [00:18:50] he.

Payman Langroudi: Your fingers.

Claire Stenhouse: With my fingers. Yeah. And he was leaving the room and I said to him, are we still [00:18:55] friends? Because he was quite upset by this point. And he said, yes. And he came over and gave me a hug. Um, complaint [00:19:00] letter came in from the mum the next day saying that I had restrained him. I’d [00:19:05] not given him any local anaesthetic or any anaesthetic. Um, I spoke to him [00:19:10] atrociously. Um, and what else.

Payman Langroudi: Was mum sitting in the room? [00:19:15]

Claire Stenhouse: No, mum wasn’t there. Grandma came with him. Mum wasn’t in the room. My mum wasn’t there. Grandma came, um, [00:19:20] all sorts of things in this. Um, it was just a and I’ve recently found out it [00:19:25] was just therapy staff who saw my son. It wasn’t even a dentist. Mhm. Um, it [00:19:30] went on and on. It was really quite nasty to be honest. Um, but thankfully I have a [00:19:35] nurse in surgery with me and all my notes were completely up to date. [00:19:40] So I just rang the ju who responded and not [00:19:45] heard anything since, but mum wasn’t even there. Grandma was there.

Payman Langroudi: On reflection. [00:19:50]

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Would you have done something differently?

Claire Stenhouse: I would not have let grandma come. So [00:19:55] from now on.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you don’t just want the kid?

Claire Stenhouse: No, I want kids [00:20:00] and a parent. I think that’s the way forward. So we have a policy in [00:20:05] place that parents have to come for exams and sign the consent form. But [00:20:10] if they want somebody else to bring them for treatment, they have to give their permission, which was given. But [00:20:15] from now on, going forward, I only really want the parent in there.

Payman Langroudi: But do you see what I mean [00:20:20] with that question I asked you about? What do you say to the patient about therapist or dentist? [00:20:25] In this case, she’s flagged that and said, I didn’t.

Claire Stenhouse: Know therapy stuff.

Payman Langroudi: So in a way, that’s [00:20:30] maybe part of the.

Claire Stenhouse: But she did know because she didn’t. Yeah. The dentist had already told her. Yeah, [00:20:35] yeah. And everything was in our notes. And even that was. Yeah, even that was in the notes, even, uh, [00:20:40] even the point of saying that we’ll do the fillings first and then try the extractions and see how it goes. [00:20:45] It was all it was all in the notes. Everything was in the notes.

Payman Langroudi: So are you saying that there was some sort of, I [00:20:50] don’t know, malicious intent?

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Why, though? Yeah. What? Try it on.

Claire Stenhouse: I don’t [00:20:55] know whether he’d gone home very upset and grandma had [00:21:00] felt stoked.

Payman Langroudi: The flames?

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. Stoked the flames, I don’t know, but we was all lovely to him. Lovely [00:21:05] to him? Yeah. When he was there, so I don’t know. But yeah that was a couple of weeks ago but that was the first one. [00:21:10] So I haven’t done bad. It’s.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. Listen man it’s part of it’s part of.

Claire Stenhouse: Being [00:21:15] a clinician. It’s upsetting though when it happens. It’s. Yeah. It’s not it’s not easy.

Payman Langroudi: I mean [00:21:20] I haven’t practised now for 14 years or something, but I in the times [00:21:25] that I got complaints, the most upsetting ones were where I was doing something slightly [00:21:30] out of the ordinary to help the patient.

Claire Stenhouse: Patient? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then, yeah, I, [00:21:35] I can almost say it’s gone wrong because it was out of the ordinary. Yeah. Whatever the thing was. [00:21:40] Yeah. Like, you know, I decided to add a tooth to a denture in that same appointment where I really [00:21:45] should have just booked another appointment. And the patient said, can you do it today?

Claire Stenhouse: And then helped them out.

Payman Langroudi: Help them.

Claire Stenhouse: Help them [00:21:50] out.

Payman Langroudi: And then it’s gone wrong. Yeah. And then the patient’s written a letter that’s almost saying the opposite [00:21:55] saying this guy’s tried it on, you know.

Claire Stenhouse: Tried something. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s where it gets [00:22:00] really painful.

Claire Stenhouse: You’ve tried to help somebody.

Payman Langroudi: You were trying to help. Now, if I. If I then extrapolate out [00:22:05] that to, let’s say, a serious situation which that becomes a GDC hearing. Yeah. [00:22:10] Let’s say I’ve got my kids in private school. I’ve got debts. Now, suddenly I’m [00:22:15] catastrophizing about what’s going to happen if I lose my lose my license. And then you can [00:22:20] start to understand why. You know, dentists take their own lives sometimes.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. No. Absolutely. [00:22:25] And it’s it’s upsetting because it. She tried to [00:22:30] say that I was quite horrible to her. And I’ve, I’ve been treating kids for 15 years and most of the kids come in, [00:22:35] they’re like, hi Claire. Are you alright? And it was upsetting to think that somebody thought that I’d actually been horrible [00:22:40] to a child. That was the worst thing. Um, and as.

Payman Langroudi: Much similar to what I’m saying.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. And [00:22:45] as much as you try to, like, shrug it off and go, oh, yeah, it’s fine, I’ll let the deed. It was like just waiting [00:22:50] for the deed you to respond.

Payman Langroudi: Stress.

Claire Stenhouse: It’s it’s it’s quite stressful and you don’t realise sometimes [00:22:55] how much it’s stressing you out. Um, but yeah, it’s quite, it’s just you [00:23:00] like to think that you’re very, like, brave.

Payman Langroudi: And what’s mad is, what’s mad is I just [00:23:05] said to you, what should a young nurse who’s thinking about going to therapy think about. And you [00:23:10] said it’s a stressful job and you didn’t mean the day to day is stressful. [00:23:15] You meant a few of these incidents.

Claire Stenhouse: Can make it.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe one every three years. [00:23:20]

Claire Stenhouse: Can make it.

Payman Langroudi: Real enough to make it.

Claire Stenhouse: A very stressful yourself as well. And um, [00:23:25] yeah, it does. It makes you question yourself and whether you’re doing the right thing and you have to like, really think back to the [00:23:30] appointment and was there about there wasn’t. So yeah. No it’s fine.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about working at a corporate. [00:23:35] Uh, your practice was bought by my dentist.

Claire Stenhouse: It was?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So you were already a hygiene [00:23:40] therapist in this practice when it when it happened. I mean, I’ve [00:23:45] been to a lot of my dentist practices, right? And they’re all now very branded up and all. Yeah. Was there a moment [00:23:50] where you thought this, this building that I know so well? I’ve [00:23:55] got so many memories and suddenly they’ve ripped it apart and, you know, rebranded everything, I [00:24:00] guess some new people probably. Yeah. Was there a moment of like. Like almost. I mean, it’s a silly word, [00:24:05] but like, grieving for the past.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. And my patience and my patience as well. Yeah. Yeah. [00:24:10] It was, it was, it was quite upsetting. Was it when they came in. Yeah. And I’ll be honest with you, my dentist [00:24:15] has changed so much just lately. Yeah. When they came into my practice 15 [00:24:20] years ago, it was a completely different bunch of people and they weren’t as [00:24:25] nice as what the people are now.

Payman Langroudi: They’ve got a massive focus now on the clinicians they have. [00:24:30] They want the clinicians.

Claire Stenhouse: Happy and the staff as well. Yeah, it is a massive change. But at the.

Payman Langroudi: Time [00:24:35] the attitude was a bit different.

Claire Stenhouse: Very different. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Explain to me like some something that was upsetting.

Claire Stenhouse: So [00:24:40] I’d been a therapist using my therapy with my [00:24:45] employer at the time, and he sold it to my dentist, and all they wanted me to do was hygiene. Yeah, [00:24:50] but they hadn’t got a dentist. So if they’d had just managed to get a dentist [00:24:55] one day a week to prescribe to me, I’d have been able to do the treatment. But they didn’t. But the patients [00:25:00] were left with nobody. They did get somebody just one day a week, [00:25:05] but the patients were just left with no appointments. It was like if the dentist just comes in and does the [00:25:10] check-up, I can do the therapy work.

Payman Langroudi: In a corporate environment, though [00:25:15] a little problem like that can take six weeks to sort because.

Claire Stenhouse: It has to.

Payman Langroudi: Go [00:25:20] up the chain of.

Claire Stenhouse: Command. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then down the chain, I’m thinking my wife works. My wife owns [00:25:25] some of enlighten.

Claire Stenhouse: Right. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. She she’s a dentist. Yeah. She works at a corporate. And we [00:25:30] said, look, you know, she owns the company, right? What about we do a little enlightened promotion? Yeah, yeah. [00:25:35] It took a year. One year? Yeah. For them to. To approve. Firstly the idea. Secondly, [00:25:40] the creative. Thirdly, the price, the offer. It took a year.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And if [00:25:45] this was a normal practice, you could have just told the boss. Look, here’s what it is. By day after tomorrow, something [00:25:50] could have happened.

Claire Stenhouse: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: So is it. Is it different now?

Claire Stenhouse: It’s a lot different now. It’s a lot quicker now. [00:25:55] Yeah. It’s a lot quicker now.

Payman Langroudi: So what happens? Let’s say you’ve got a problem now.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How long do you think it will take to [00:26:00] fix a problem like that?

Claire Stenhouse: Um, my area manager is brilliant. So if I email my [00:26:05] area manager, she will get back to me and say, leave it with me. Really? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Call her out. Call her out.

Claire Stenhouse: Laura. [00:26:10]

Payman Langroudi: Laura. Well done, well done Laura.

Claire Stenhouse: My dentist and Michelle [00:26:15] Holmes as well. The. Yeah. Michelle. Yeah. Michelle’s lovely as well. So yeah it’s a it’s a lot it’s a lot better [00:26:20] now but we’re 15 years in so and then they, they just they seem to care. [00:26:25]

Payman Langroudi: So now from your sort of career prospects, [00:26:30] I’m trying to persuade you to do anterior aesthetic work. Let’s say [00:26:35] you come back to mini smile makeover and you decide. I mean, you’ve been once, but [00:26:40] you decided it’s not for you yet. This time you decide I’m going to try and do it.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah, I have decided [00:26:45] I am going to do it.

Payman Langroudi: Really, really.

Claire Stenhouse: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: So. So what steps would you now have to take [00:26:50] to be referred private aesthetic cases?

Claire Stenhouse: I don’t need to I don’t need to be prescribed. [00:26:55]

Payman Langroudi: I don’t need.

Claire Stenhouse: Prescribed.

Payman Langroudi: You’ll just sell it to the patient.

Claire Stenhouse: Sell it to the patients myself. Yeah. It doesn’t need prescribing. [00:27:00]

Payman Langroudi: When did that change?

Claire Stenhouse: Um, so it’s all been changing over the last couple of years. So before I [00:27:05] obviously would need a prescription for local anaesthetic. Yeah, I’ve just done the exemptions [00:27:10] course, so I don’t actually need a prescription for. Um, and I can do an examination [00:27:15] as well. Um, we always have been able to do, but never been allowed to. Um, [00:27:20] so whatever’s in our scope of practice now, we can now do. So if I see a patient and [00:27:25] they want composite bonding, I can go ahead and do it.

Payman Langroudi: And you scan [00:27:30] as well.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. Alicia does it for me, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But you can. [00:27:35]

Claire Stenhouse: See it’s much better at it than I am. But you can scan. I can scan, yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is the scanner kind of [00:27:40] available or is it.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah, it’s. Yeah, it’s always available. It’s always there. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We’re trying to convince [00:27:45] them to. So we’ve got a little spare room. It’s very tiny, but you could just get a chair [00:27:50] and a scanner in there. So we’re trying to convince them to make that into a little scanning room. So it’s always [00:27:55] available. If there’s no surgery free, then we can pop in there and leave it in there as well, because it’s [00:28:00] a bit of a clack carrying it around everywhere.

Payman Langroudi: I’m going to put you on the spot now.

Claire Stenhouse: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: What are [00:28:05] the best and worst things about working in this environment. Like in a corporate [00:28:10] environment.

Claire Stenhouse: In a corporate. Um. The [00:28:15] best thing, I suppose, is the support that you get. I’m [00:28:20] going to be honest with you. It all depends on your practice and [00:28:25] the manager.

Payman Langroudi: The particular.

Claire Stenhouse: And the team. Yeah. Um, if you’ve got a good manager and a good team, [00:28:30] then everything runs really smoothly. Um, I’m very lucky in [00:28:35] the fact that I do whitening. One of the dentists [00:28:40] does the composite bonding, one does clearcorrect and one does implants. And [00:28:45] we all.

Payman Langroudi: Tend much crossover.

Claire Stenhouse: No, we don’t cross over. We all refer to each other. [00:28:50] And that’s the lovely part of working. Um, but I don’t know [00:28:55] whether that happens in other practices. That’s just our practice.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you’ve done you said you’ve done 120 [00:29:00] enlightened cases. Yeah. So many of those cases would be implant patients [00:29:05] or So. Patience.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Finish clear. Correct. And upgraded.

Claire Stenhouse: Composite bonding. But [00:29:10] want to, um, be a be one before they start.

Payman Langroudi: So all the dentists are cool with you doing it.

Claire Stenhouse: Instead.

Payman Langroudi: Of [00:29:15] them.

Claire Stenhouse: Doing.

Payman Langroudi: It?

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting.

Payman Langroudi: I know it’s such a lucky position to be in.

Claire Stenhouse: I know, I [00:29:20] know.

Payman Langroudi: And then you get paid by percentage.

Claire Stenhouse: I do get paid by.

Payman Langroudi: Is [00:29:25] that the same across all, um, my dentists.

Claire Stenhouse: I don’t know, I think different hygiene therapists [00:29:30] work differently, I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Do you only work in that practice? Would you work in a.

Claire Stenhouse: No, I work for an independent practice [00:29:35] as well. Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Okay, so tell me about this here. You know, sometimes I’m just gonna call you a hygienist [00:29:40] for now. Yeah, okay. Sometimes the hygienist doesn’t feel like part of the team, okay? Because they’re not [00:29:45] there the whole time. And I remember we used to have a hygienist in one of my practices. She was only there one [00:29:50] day a week. Yeah. And she used to tell me, um, we’d talk and she’d tell me, you know, [00:29:55] in dental practice, you’ve got hierarchy situations sometimes. Yeah. My dentist. Quite different, actually, when [00:30:00] I’ve been there. Um, it feels like a flatter hierarchy because, you know, [00:30:05] it’s my dentist. That’s the boss. It’s not. It’s not the dentist themselves. Right. Yeah. Um, but [00:30:10] what the scientists tell me is, you say, you know, I don’t even want to go to the Christmas [00:30:15] party, but it would be nice to get an invite.

Claire Stenhouse: Oh, she never got invited.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, because she was. Because she was one day [00:30:20] a week.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, they didn’t consider her as one of the team.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. Okay. So.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but [00:30:25] I’m not talking about the Christmas party. I’m talking about overall. Overall. You’re there. I don’t know, one day a week or two days a week. The other [00:30:30] one. The other job. Yeah. You’re not really properly part of the the full time staff. [00:30:35]

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or maybe again, you’re very lucky and you feel like you are.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah, I do.

Payman Langroudi: But you really [00:30:40] land on your feet. I have.

Claire Stenhouse: I know because, yeah, you see things on Facebook, don’t you, [00:30:45] about like what you’ve just explained. Not feeling part of the team and everything. And yeah, I [00:30:50] get it. And I have worked in practices before that I have felt like that. But no, I do actually [00:30:55] feel part of the team.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so the best. So the best thing is.

Claire Stenhouse: Is they’re going to pay me for [00:31:00] this.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So the best thing is you’ve got the support. For instance, [00:31:05] my wife works at Bupa. We moved house and they just found her another job on.

Claire Stenhouse: The other side.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So there’s that. Right. [00:31:10] So if you ever want to move from Skegness, you could always. What’s the downside.

Claire Stenhouse: Of working for a corporate? [00:31:15]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Claire Stenhouse: I suppose like [00:31:20] you just said, things do take longer.

Payman Langroudi: So even now. [00:31:25]

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. So when I went when I did the enlightened course online, [00:31:30] I went to my boss at my other practice, which is independent, and [00:31:35] explained to him everything about him. And he ordered the kits straight away. Yeah. [00:31:40] And I know that.

Payman Langroudi: At my dentist there was a process.

Claire Stenhouse: It was it was a process. So yeah. [00:31:45] And my independence. So there’s lots of there’s [00:31:50] lots of rules and regulations at my dentist that aren’t in place. And [00:31:55] at the other one.

Payman Langroudi: And you understand why.

Claire Stenhouse: I understand.

Payman Langroudi: The stress.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. [00:32:00] But yeah I suppose that’s one of the, the downsides. But you know, [00:32:05] everybody who’s worked at my practice has been there for a long time.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s are they as flexible [00:32:10] when it comes to holidays.

Claire Stenhouse: I’m self-employed. So they are. Yeah. So they are. Yeah I [00:32:15] think we have to give six weeks notice if we want holidays but yeah. No they are. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But let’s say it’s five [00:32:20] weeks notice. Is that a definite no. Or they’ll consider.

Claire Stenhouse: It. They’ll consider it. Yeah. That’s right. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. No. [00:32:25] Yeah. No they’re not strict like that. That’s right. Yeah. No it’s good. And like um I’ve had quite [00:32:30] a few health issues over the last couple of years. So they, they’ve been really good.

Payman Langroudi: Understanding.

Claire Stenhouse: About hospital [00:32:35] appointments and things like that. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: I think if you know, I’ve got friends, my wife actually had [00:32:40] had a health issue too. If you’re ill. Yeah. A corporate might be the best place to be.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. No, they’ve always been.

Payman Langroudi: Okay [00:32:45] because they really do dot the I’s and cross the T’s when it comes.

Claire Stenhouse: To. Absolutely. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That sort of.

Claire Stenhouse: Thing. I’ve had [00:32:50] to go home some. Not not often, but a couple of afternoons I’ve had to leave and it’s, it’s been absolutely [00:32:55] fine. Apart from the patients.

Payman Langroudi: They’ve.

Claire Stenhouse: It.

Payman Langroudi: Not.

Claire Stenhouse: Being fine?

Payman Langroudi: Of course. [00:33:00] So where do you think you’ll be in five years time? Do you feel like you’ve fully retired? [00:33:05]

Claire Stenhouse: Oh, really? Hopefully. Are you thinking of it? Yeah. We’ve, um. We’re we we’ve [00:33:10] got a narrowboat in Nottingham that we go to every weekend, and we’ve just bought, um, [00:33:15] an old narrowboat that we’re doing up. Um, and our intention is to [00:33:20] five more years go live on the narrowboat. So. Yeah, hopefully five years. Yeah. Yeah, [00:33:25] it might take a bit longer than that, but yeah, that’s that’s the plan. So hopefully in five years I won’t.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re saving [00:33:30] up right now or.

Claire Stenhouse: Um. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s expensive. It’s expensive being [00:33:35] retired.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah I know, yeah, I think so. I don’t think I’ll enjoy [00:33:40] full time retirement, so I’m probably going to end up working two days a [00:33:45] week just to keep you going.

Payman Langroudi: I used to have a boss who was really into, [00:33:50] uh, sailing. Yeah. And he he he used to go away. Actually, I really attribute [00:33:55] a lot of what I learned from this guy by by mistake, actually, because he used to go away for [00:34:00] four months at a time and he’d just have a little chat with me and say, look, just, just make sure everything’s okay and do [00:34:05] whatever you want and just go. And I learned a lot from just that. But but he put a Dental chair [00:34:10] on his.

Claire Stenhouse: Did he really?

Payman Langroudi: Wow. And and he sails around [00:34:15] Croatia.

Claire Stenhouse: Right. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, the sailing community, they tend to sort of go [00:34:20] together. Yeah. From port to port. And he’s kind of just known as the guy. If you’ve got toothache, then. [00:34:25]

Claire Stenhouse: You pop on his.

Payman Langroudi: Boat. Maybe the narrowboat.

Claire Stenhouse: See, that is another, though. Another thing I’d like [00:34:30] to do if.

Payman Langroudi: Direct access from the narrative.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. Yeah. Just stick it on the side of a towpath. [00:34:35] Another thing I’d like to do there is a big ship, isn’t there, that goes around all the. Oh, why [00:34:40] does it. I used to work with a dentist who used to go, and it was like this big first aid [00:34:45] ship. And they used to do dentistry on there. Yeah. Charity work. I’d love to do that.

Payman Langroudi: Where? Like in Africa [00:34:50] or something?

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah, I’m sure it was. Yeah, somewhere around there. Or even go on one of these. Of these? [00:34:55] Is it dentate? Yeah, I’d love to do something like that. I’ve said that for years, but I’ll get [00:35:00] around to it at some point. But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Whenever this question comes up, I always think about, have you heard of effective [00:35:05] altruism? No. So it’s got a bit of a bad name now, but [00:35:10] I’ll explain to you why. So, you know, let’s let’s say we want to do some charity work. Yeah, yeah, [00:35:15] there’s there’s an island in Greece where all the refugees first come to Lesbos. [00:35:20] It’s just full of refugees, right? You can go there and you can help out.

Claire Stenhouse: Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:35:25] Um, Rona, my co-host. She does it every year on the other podcast. But [00:35:30] the question is this, like, why?

Claire Stenhouse: I just think it’d be rewarding.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:35:35] Yeah, it is. It definitely is. Yeah.

Claire Stenhouse: And I’ve done something good.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. But but, [00:35:40] you know, this is my point that, you know, sometimes someone like Rona, she’s a bit super high end cosmetic dentist. [00:35:45] Yeah. And she says sometimes you’ve got some very sort of rich, famous [00:35:50] person giving her hell about some quarter of an inch on a on a tooth [00:35:55] because she’s a cosmetic dentist and she says when she goes to the refugee camp, it’s like suddenly [00:36:00] keeping things real where you know, people, you know, need her help and so on. Yeah, and I get all of that. [00:36:05] But if the end goal is to alleviate suffering, [00:36:10] yeah, you do better working as a [00:36:15] therapist, banging out composite veneers and paying [00:36:20] money into charity, paying money to people on the ground.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah, I’m going to do [00:36:25] it.

Payman Langroudi: If that’s the end goal. If the end goal is making alleviating pain, let’s [00:36:30] say. Yeah. Now, if the end goal is you yourself being the one to alleviate the pain.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. No, I think [00:36:35] that’s what yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I get it. I completely get it because, you know, there’s something in it for you. But but you’ve got to also [00:36:40] like be wary of, you know, there’s a power to that.

Claire Stenhouse: How is.

Payman Langroudi: That. Yeah. Like [00:36:45] let’s imagine I’m driving a truck that’s got bread on the back.

Claire Stenhouse: Of.

Payman Langroudi: It. Yeah, yeah. And there’s the hungry here. Yeah, yeah. [00:36:50] Now of course I want to feed the hungry. Yeah, but there is a there is an element of power there that says if I don’t feed [00:36:55] them, they’ll die.

Claire Stenhouse: Right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And I have the power. Okay. And so all I’m saying, [00:37:00] I don’t want to be an idiot about it, because I completely get why people want to do it myself. I want to [00:37:05] go to Lesbos myself. Now that I’m not a dentist, I want to go and do some dentistry. Yeah. [00:37:10] I completely get it. But I am talking about just the other side of it. Yeah. Is that to fully understand [00:37:15] what your motivation is around that? Yeah. And make sure that motivation isn’t [00:37:20] the power side of it. Yeah. Yeah. It is.

Claire Stenhouse: A [00:37:25] little.

Payman Langroudi: Bit. I love your honesty.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. No. Maybe there is maybe just a little bit. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: We tend to end this podcast [00:37:30] generally with a fantasy dinner party.

Claire Stenhouse: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests, dead [00:37:35] or alive. What comes to mind? I should have warned you about the question, but I like just hitting you. [00:37:40]

Claire Stenhouse: Okay. Um, not dentistry related. Anybody? Pink.

Payman Langroudi: Pink. [00:37:45] The artist.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah. Pink. The artist. Yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: She’s good.

Claire Stenhouse: She is very good. I saw [00:37:50] her at Wembley. Oh, did you go? Yeah, it was brilliant. Um. Oh. Oh, my. [00:37:55] Grandma.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, nice.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Were you.

Claire Stenhouse: Close? Yeah. Very, um. Pink. [00:38:00] My grandma and the Queen.

Payman Langroudi: The queen?

Claire Stenhouse: The queen.

Payman Langroudi: She’s made. She’s made appearances [00:38:05] in this party before. It’s an interesting one with pink and your grandma, though.

Claire Stenhouse: Yeah, and [00:38:10] the queen.

Payman Langroudi: I’m sure your grandma would be like.

Claire Stenhouse: I know she’d like pink better than the Queen, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah, [00:38:15] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive pleasure to have you.

Claire Stenhouse: Thank you very.

Payman Langroudi: Much. It’s a massive pleasure to have to see you [00:38:20] back in London again. And you’re coming out brilliant. I look forward to seeing you on Mini Smile Makeover.

Claire Stenhouse: In a couple.

Payman Langroudi: Of weeks. [00:38:25] In a couple of weeks. Thank you so much for doing this.

Claire Stenhouse: Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Perrin Shah [00:38:30] onto the My Dentist episode of Dental Leaders. Perrin is [00:38:35] a dentist who had her own clinic in India and then [00:38:40] moved to the UK and started working at my dentist, so it’s a pleasure to have you. [00:38:45]

Perrin Shah: Thank you Payman so much. It’s an honour to be invited on your podcast. [00:38:50] Um, I have been listening to your podcast on my drive way back [00:38:55] home. Long drives and I make sure my partner listens to it as well. [00:39:00] It’s. It’s very lovely to be here with you this evening. Thank you for inviting me. [00:39:05]

Payman Langroudi: It’s lovely to see you. So we saw each other in Bristol?

Perrin Shah: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: At one of those training [00:39:10] events.

Perrin Shah: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. Yeah, yeah. And, um. So, look, I’m always [00:39:15] interested in stories of people getting up from one country and going to another, especially to do dentistry. [00:39:20] Bearing in mind how difficult it is to to move to the UK from [00:39:25] with an Indian, uh, degree. Yeah. But I’m also very aware of how hard it [00:39:30] is to become a dentist in India. Very competitive nature of the thing. Um, [00:39:35] tell me about why dentistry. Like, how did it happen?

Perrin Shah: So basically, uh, [00:39:40] in my, I would say in my family, even in the extended family or [00:39:45] nobody is a doctor or a dentist. So my mom really [00:39:50] wanted someone to be in the medical background.

Payman Langroudi: And they do.

Perrin Shah: Yes they do. Yeah. [00:39:55] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: For no reason. Yeah. For no reason.

Perrin Shah: They just feel that they should have some. But also [00:40:00] I never I my father has always been into business and I [00:40:05] never wanted to work for someone. I wanted to have my own business. So. Uh, [00:40:10] because you have the flexibility to work, to take holidays when you want, and you’re not [00:40:15] in no pressure of working for someone.

Payman Langroudi: Are your parents still in India? Yeah. What does your father do? [00:40:20]

Perrin Shah: So my father is retired now, but he used to make raw materials [00:40:25] like kerosene, acetone, acetic acid. Oh.

Payman Langroudi: Chemical engineering.

Perrin Shah: Yeah, yeah, [00:40:30] yeah. So he. We have our own factory, but he’s given it to someone now because [00:40:35] of cause of his age. But I have been there, and he is super hardworking. So [00:40:40] I was like, no, I want to get there at some point. But of course [00:40:45] he wanted he never wanted me to join the factory because it involved [00:40:50] long hours of travelling. And he said, you settle on something which [00:40:55] you it’s very local to you. And then because I always wanted [00:41:00] like to fulfil my mom’s dream as well. So I was like, okay, let’s get into medical background. [00:41:05] But my other option other than that was journalism. Oh really? I thought if I couldn’t [00:41:10] get into dentistry, my second option was to get into journalism [00:41:15] because I wanted to do Bachelors of Mass Media. So that was my plan.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. [00:41:20]

Perrin Shah: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Are there times where you think, what if, like, you wish [00:41:25] you did get into journalism?

Perrin Shah: Uh, yeah. I was like, okay. I was like, it’s [00:41:30] fun, it’s travelling. It’s just after the news every now and then. Yeah. And it’s also [00:41:35] about interviewing people like you are right now. So but once I got into dentistry, [00:41:40] I thought, yeah, this is for me because I started loving it so much. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:41:45] was the course like? Did you was is the course difficult like when you got there? Did you did.

Perrin Shah: It? Um, yeah. [00:41:50] Getting into dentistry was difficult. Yeah. But once you are in, initially [00:41:55] it was tough because of course everything is new. We had. And [00:42:00] so I remember still, um, we had anatomy, uh, hands on [00:42:05] practical. And we had, we saw the dead body for the very first time. [00:42:10] A lot of formalin. And I had two of my colleagues who just passed out.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: With [00:42:15] the smell or they can’t see. So it was a bit of, you know.

Payman Langroudi: For instance, how many people [00:42:20] in your year.

Perrin Shah: 100.

Payman Langroudi: 100?

Perrin Shah: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I mean, we [00:42:25] kind of I kind of know what, what the expectation is on numbers of, of [00:42:30] treatments you have to do here. But what was it there like? I mean, how many endos had you done by the time you became [00:42:35] a dentist?

Perrin Shah: Uh, until final year, which is the fourth year there. We [00:42:40] were just allowed to do maybe anteriores until canines [00:42:45] because they had reserved the molars for postgraduate studies. Okay, but when we were internship, we [00:42:50] can’t do molars if we wanted to. So I did at least 15 molars, [00:42:55] I would say, during my entire time in endodontics there.

Payman Langroudi: But internship means what? The year after [00:43:00] your.

Perrin Shah: Internship is, the year after you qualify.

Payman Langroudi: You have sort of hear.

Perrin Shah: No before you [00:43:05] get your certificate.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Perrin Shah: So after the fourth year, you have one year where.

Payman Langroudi: You practice. [00:43:10]

Perrin Shah: In practice, but in hospital where you were once training.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I see.

Perrin Shah: So you’re you’re [00:43:15] unofficially a dentist, but you can call yourself as a dentist because there’s no exams. [00:43:20] Then you have done everything.

Payman Langroudi: So how long after you qualify? Did you decide you want to open your own clinic? [00:43:25]

Perrin Shah: So, no. After I finished my bachelor’s, I [00:43:30] came out. I saw that a lot of loads of dentists in and around and how [00:43:35] much I, I was good at clinical dentistry. I wasn’t confident at all. So I was like, [00:43:40] no, you have to step up one like you have to take a step further. Yeah. That’s when I got [00:43:45] into Masters for Pete’s. Pete’s. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Why did you pick Pete’s? You like children?

Perrin Shah: No. [00:43:50]

Payman Langroudi: No.

[TRANSITION]: The thing is, because. [00:43:55]

Perrin Shah: It involves everything. I did not wanted to leave general dentistry. So [00:44:00] Pete’s included everything. Whatever comes from endo, ortho fillings, [00:44:05] crowns, dentures.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so ortho was part of it?

Perrin Shah: Yeah. So we had to do space maintenance. [00:44:10] We had to give appliances removable and partial for habit breaking and stuff. We [00:44:15] had to give crowns for both adult and deciduous teeth. [00:44:20] And we.

Payman Langroudi: So was it a full time course?

Perrin Shah: Yeah, yeah. A three year course. Full time. [00:44:25]

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness.

Perrin Shah: Right. And full time in the hospital. Yeah. Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So so then [00:44:30] when you when did you open your practice? Soon after.

[TRANSITION]: That.

Perrin Shah: Soon after that.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So do you think was it a [00:44:35] pedes practice?

Perrin Shah: Initially, I started as a pedes practice. Yeah, but then, um, [00:44:40] the parents started asking me, can you treat us as well? Um, so initially I [00:44:45] was a bit sceptical. Should I or should I not? But then I said, let’s go on, let’s try, because I know it, I [00:44:50] know fillings, I know root canals for patients with difficult like very flattened ridges. [00:44:55] I used to call my friends who were also specialists, and then they used to call me for [00:45:00] consultations for pedes. So this is how. And then I went into a fully full practice.

Payman Langroudi: Did you [00:45:05] did you buy an existing practice or did you set up one from squat?

Perrin Shah: I set up on my own because [00:45:10] in that area my parents lived for 30 years.

Payman Langroudi: Mumbai.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah. [00:45:15] So everybody.

Payman Langroudi: Loads of.

[TRANSITION]: People.

Perrin Shah: They everybody knew them. Yeah. And my grandparents as [00:45:20] well. So it was very easy for me to open an area where they know me and [00:45:25] my family. So I used to get a lot of friends, family, extended family.

Payman Langroudi: Did you get the money?

Perrin Shah: So [00:45:30] initially my father helped me. Yeah, to set up the practice Purpose. And [00:45:35] then once I started working, I never asked him again because.

Payman Langroudi: It was.

[TRANSITION]: A success.

Perrin Shah: Yeah, [00:45:40] a good success. I started making profit in third month, I would [00:45:45] say.

[TRANSITION]: Wow.

Perrin Shah: Yeah. And it was a very well established practice.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Intensely. We don’t realise [00:45:50] how lucky we are.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Insomuch as something like that can even happen. Yeah. Because I [00:45:55] was dentist and we started enlightened. And for the first five years we made loss.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:46:00]

Payman Langroudi: And big losses, you know. Huge losses. And there’s nothing as painful as working your [00:46:05] butt off and losing money.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s really hard. And in dentistry. And I was a dentist, [00:46:10] so I just thought it’d be like dentistry, you know, make some people happy and you’ll get some money, you know? But not the same [00:46:15] at all.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So. So you had this perfect situation, and then you go and meet your husband.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:46:20] Yeah.

Perrin Shah: So things happened, and we met [00:46:25] online and then online. Yeah. We met online. And then, of course, [00:46:30] he had come to India.

Payman Langroudi: He lives like a like a dating app.

Perrin Shah: No, it wasn’t a dating app. [00:46:35] It was, um, I would say, uh, he was my friend’s friend. [00:46:40]

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Perrin Shah: And then, um, we met. I was like, he just said hi, [00:46:45] and then I said. And then we started conversation. But it was also kind of arranged marriage, I would say. [00:46:50]

Payman Langroudi: So you were kind of looking for a husband at that point?

Perrin Shah: My parents were.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [00:46:55]

Perrin Shah: And and I knew that this is the time now. So of [00:47:00] course, your parents would want you to get settled down and stuff. Yeah, but I was pushing until my career [00:47:05] is set up. Yeah. So once everything was done, I had no choice. So [00:47:10] then I was like, okay, fine, let’s do this. Let’s get into this world. And then I met [00:47:15] him. My family met him. He came to Mumbai a couple of times. He lives in Mumbai. His [00:47:20] parents lives in Mumbai as well. So we met there. And then I said, [00:47:25] um, his name is Bhaumik. So I said, Bhowmick, I can’t leave my practice, but [00:47:30] I want you as well in my life. So he said, come to UK, see if you like [00:47:35] it. If not, we’ll come back to Mumbai or I’ll help you set a practice in UK. So [00:47:40] this was the thing which said no, let’s give a chance. So that’s why I moved to the UK. [00:47:45]

Payman Langroudi: But why did he want to move to the UK?

[TRANSITION]: Me?

Payman Langroudi: No. Why did.

[TRANSITION]: He want.

Perrin Shah: He was [00:47:50] already in the UK.

[TRANSITION]: I was already in the UK. He was.

Perrin Shah: He came here to study.

[TRANSITION]: When he was 18. I [00:47:55] see.

Perrin Shah: Yeah. And he was already established here. So he said and I think you’ll like it.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:48:00] so then you went from owning your own practice in India, in Mumbai [00:48:05] of all places, which is like a fun town, right? You know, like someone [00:48:10] doing well in Mumbai can have a great life.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: To landing in what? London. [00:48:15] Was it London? No, Bristol.

[TRANSITION]: You’re in Bristol?

Perrin Shah: In Manchester.

Payman Langroudi: Then he was in Manchester. Cold [00:48:20] and raining.

[TRANSITION]: All.

Perrin Shah: The.

[TRANSITION]: Time.

Payman Langroudi: That must have been a culture shock in the first place, right?

[TRANSITION]: No. [00:48:25] The thing is.

Payman Langroudi: Were you cool with.

[TRANSITION]: That?

Perrin Shah: No, I came in Feb 2020 just [00:48:30] before Covid.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, so by the time yeah.

Perrin Shah: I came in Feb and I [00:48:35] think the first lockdown was in on 23rd or 25th of March.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: And I was a bit [00:48:40] shocked because of Covid, a pandemic. And then I was like, okay, in my. [00:48:45]

[TRANSITION]: Mind, I.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t have a job.

[TRANSITION]: Yet. No.

Perrin Shah: From working full.

[TRANSITION]: Time. Yeah.

Perrin Shah: To [00:48:50] sitting at home.

[TRANSITION]: And like a lot of people.

Payman Langroudi: And it was a lovely summer.

[TRANSITION]: Lovely summer. [00:48:55]

Perrin Shah: And we had this in our mind that, okay, I will give [00:49:00] my exams. Everything was done and then I’ll pass. I’ll give my part one in [00:49:05] August, part two and.

[TRANSITION]: Next.

Perrin Shah: Year March Owari and that’s it. But [00:49:10] then when you come here, you come to know everything is short. Even the dental practices are short.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:49:15]

Perrin Shah: So of.

[TRANSITION]: A shock.

Perrin Shah: Yeah. A big shock to me.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, what happened [00:49:20] to your practice back in India?

Perrin Shah: So I had to give it to someone. I had to sold it [00:49:25] away because I had a friend who wanted to take it, but I just was [00:49:30] wondering if. What if something happens? They’ll contact my parents.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: And then my parents [00:49:35] would already be worried how to fix that problem, so I just sold it.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:49:40] many years did you have it beginning to end?

Perrin Shah: Uh, one and a half year.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a bit tough, man. If you’re making [00:49:45] a success of it.

Perrin Shah: The thing.

[TRANSITION]: Is.

Perrin Shah: I saw another practice opening next. [00:49:50] Just two shops from mine.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: And there was a new practice came up.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: Initially [00:49:55] I thought, okay, this is going to be a trouble for me.

[TRANSITION]: But no.

Perrin Shah: She was making her [00:50:00] money, I was fine, I had my set patients. They knew how I work.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Perrin Shah: And I used to see a lot [00:50:05] of emergencies for children on Sundays as well. Yeah. Because they knew.

[TRANSITION]: She’s. [00:50:10]

Payman Langroudi: Your source of patience. Wasn’t the man walking down the street? Your source [00:50:15] of patients was your grandparents reputation. You know. You know what I mean? Like, it’s a it’s a, you [00:50:20] know, we actually we make a mistake to think we’re in competition with each other anyway. Yeah. [00:50:25] We’re in we’re in competition with other spending.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Holidays. Whatever. Cars. Those are the things we’re in competition with. [00:50:30] But I can imagine that if I’m thinking back to when we started, if I was in profit a [00:50:35] year and a half in, nothing would have stopped me. I would have kept going. So it must have been a big step for you. [00:50:40]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: I had tears.

[TRANSITION]: In my eyes when I.

Perrin Shah: Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: And so [00:50:45] where did my dentist come into this equation? Was it when they reopened after Covid?

[TRANSITION]: No. [00:50:50]

Perrin Shah: The thing.

[TRANSITION]: Is.

Perrin Shah: So once Covid hit, um, I was in Manchester, [00:50:55] and then my husband got a job in Boeing, which is in Bristol, the aerospace hub. [00:51:00]

Payman Langroudi: Is he an aerospace engineer?

Perrin Shah: He’s aerospace.

[TRANSITION]: Engineer.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? My son wants to study there.

Perrin Shah: So it [00:51:05] was a dream job for him?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: And I was doing nothing at that time. So in [00:51:10] that time, I started giving, I started I was starting Ferrari. I was all prepared, and then they were shot. [00:51:15] So I gave a part one.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Perrin Shah: So I was like, let’s do something. [00:51:20] And then we moved to Bristol. And then I started working as a dental nurse in a private practice. [00:51:25]

[TRANSITION]: What a nightmare.

Perrin Shah: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But practice owner to dental nurse. Imagine. [00:51:30] I can imagine how you were feeling.

Perrin Shah: But I wanted to learn about [00:51:35] the culture of dentistry.

[TRANSITION]: In the UK.

Payman Langroudi: I know why. Which. Which practice was.

[TRANSITION]: That?

Perrin Shah: It was smile. Orchard. [00:51:40]

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Perrin Shah: Yeah. French dental.

[TRANSITION]: Practice. Yeah, yeah.

Perrin Shah: Lovely practice. I learned a lot. Uh, [00:51:45] it was a mixed, uh, NHS, a small contract with predominantly private. Did [00:51:50] that for a year.

Payman Langroudi: What did you find was the main difference between practices in the UK [00:51:55] and practising in India?

Perrin Shah: People don’t bargain here.

[TRANSITION]: People don’t.

Perrin Shah: Bargain. [00:52:00] Yeah. In India, they bargain for even a small filling.

[TRANSITION]: You.

Perrin Shah: You have to negotiate a lot. [00:52:05]

[TRANSITION]: Really?

Perrin Shah: And that’s tough.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: Because they are. Because there are so many dentists [00:52:10] in India.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: Yeah, yeah. They know that if they can’t afford you, there’s someone else who will do it for cheaper. So. [00:52:15]

Payman Langroudi: And what about, like, numbers of patients per day?

[TRANSITION]: It’s pretty much the same. [00:52:20] Yeah. The private practice. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Not the NHS.

[TRANSITION]: No.

Perrin Shah: So we [00:52:25] don’t. We have NHS. We have government funded practices there. It’s cheaper. [00:52:30]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: But patients know that they are going there and they won’t be paying much.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm.

Perrin Shah: But [00:52:35] we most of us were doing private work only.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Aha.

Payman Langroudi: So. [00:52:40] Okay. You worked as a nurse there.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me, tell me any [00:52:45] bit of information about what it’s like being a nurse compared to being a dentist. Like, what’s one [00:52:50] thing about being a nurse that most dentists don’t appreciate?

Perrin Shah: Um, they [00:52:55] are humans as well. I would say, because.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: If patients are annoyed with [00:53:00] the dentist.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: They will start, you know, moaning at you that [00:53:05] you’re not suctioning properly. There’s a lot of pressure. But you can see it’s not you, it’s the dentist. [00:53:10] But all you have to say is. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. And the [00:53:15] other thing is, you know.

Payman Langroudi: You sometimes get a dentist treating you badly, like, not not badly, but, like, you know, that [00:53:20] sort of. Yeah. Hierarchy.

Perrin Shah: Yeah. Thing they’re not in a good mood. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [00:53:25] A lot of times.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you know, like some people say the dentist leaves and doesn’t even say thank you [00:53:30] at the end of the day. Like, does that happen?

Perrin Shah: Yeah. I mean, so many times. [00:53:35] And then you also feel that how is in a good mood today. So that my day [00:53:40] goes good because, you know, if he or she is in a bad mood, your day is ruined because [00:53:45] they just.

Payman Langroudi: You know, did most of them know you were a dentist or sometimes.

Perrin Shah: All of them.

Payman Langroudi: You still [00:53:50] shout at you?

Perrin Shah: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because they really.

Perrin Shah: Yeah. And then you just have to say. But the thing is, [00:53:55] we I had taken a step back as well because I was not from this country. Yeah I know. So I knew [00:54:00] that I have to make a position by myself. Also, the other thing [00:54:05] what we came across was the accent. Yeah, I could understand, but [00:54:10] I was not sure if they can understand me. I know. So I yeah, [00:54:15] I don’t know. And I was like, okay, should I work hard on hard on this? So then I went on to become a head [00:54:20] receptionist in a specialist practice in Bristol. That was quite life changing for [00:54:25] me.

Payman Langroudi: Which practice.

Perrin Shah: Was that? It was Bristol Specialist Dental Clinic.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I know that one.

Perrin Shah: Yeah. And I [00:54:30] had a lovely time there. And they are still my friends. I go to their events.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:54:35] even like so like you don’t become head receptionist by mistake, do you? Like you [00:54:40] were trying your hardest and. Yeah. Trying to be very good. Yeah. Even the sort of nursing reception [00:54:45] jobs. Yeah. Which is admirable. It’s admirable. Man. You go from being the daughter of an industrialist [00:54:50] at your own practice to working your hardest as a dental nurse, I like that.

Perrin Shah: But I didn’t want [00:54:55] it to sit at home. That was the thing. I didn’t want it to sit at home. I didn’t want it to leave dentistry. [00:55:00] Yeah. Because I absolutely loved dentistry. Once I got into it, I loved. So if you [00:55:05] see my Instagram, my Facebook, everything is about teeth. Yeah. I don’t follow people much [00:55:10] because I love dentistry. That’s the thing. And I was like, okay, let’s [00:55:15] let’s get it. And being on being on head receptionist or receptionist. I would say the amount of [00:55:20] um, communication skills are built up. Even talking on phone with them, you know, [00:55:25] reminders, booking appointments, greeting them. And then you got to know that, okay, I’m [00:55:30] the first point of contact, how important person I am to the patient who are coming to the practice.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. People [00:55:35] don’t appreciate how important the receptionist is.

Perrin Shah: But this practice did lovely practice. I would say [00:55:40] if anyone gets a chance, go and work there.

Payman Langroudi: Who was the boss?

Perrin Shah: Uh, it was my. [00:55:45] It is owned by my dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, is it was it was it was it. Yeah.

Perrin Shah: Okay. And then that that that [00:55:50] point, I was like, okay, the GDC is still short. Two years, no exams. [00:55:55] Let’s apply for dental hygiene and therapy.

Payman Langroudi: Oh that route.

Perrin Shah: Yeah, yeah. So I took that route [00:56:00] because I wanted to start clinical because I was just wasting my time. Yeah, yeah. And then. [00:56:05]

Payman Langroudi: Did you worry that, you know, like, you might have forgotten how to give an ID block and any of.

Perrin Shah: That? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s a worry, [00:56:10] isn’t it?

Perrin Shah: I didn’t, uh, use the handpiece for about more than two years.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:56:15] And sometimes now you go on vacation for two weeks and you’re a little bit shaky. Yeah.

Perrin Shah: Imagine how [00:56:20] it would be.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: For two years.

Payman Langroudi: I always thought about it. I took five years off and then went back. [00:56:25] And I used to think to myself, I was worried about it, for sure, but I used to think to myself, loads of women have babies for five years [00:56:30] and come back. Yeah. So that was for me. Five years was the number that I thought. It’s just about doable. [00:56:35] Yeah. What was shocking, though, what was surprising for me was in that five years, people [00:56:40] got better and I didn’t. Yeah. And you don’t actually realise it’s true. But in that [00:56:45] five years, it became standard for everyone to use rubber dam for posterior [00:56:50] composites. Whereas before that five years it wasn’t. Not many were doing that in that five years rotary [00:56:55] endo came in. Yeah, yeah. And I was only ever using hand files. Yeah. And suddenly [00:57:00] almost everyone was using rotary endo. And so, you know, shockingly, the market got better while [00:57:05] I hadn’t. And that surprised me. That surprised me. So. Okay. Now, how did you then [00:57:10] become a dentist? You did the oral.

Perrin Shah: Yeah. So? So that’s how I got into my dentist. [00:57:15] Yeah, we had this area manager at that time was Tim Paul, and he knew I had [00:57:20] applied for hygiene therapy, so I just asked him, I’ll be hopefully getting registered [00:57:25] in a year’s time because that’s how long they took. Yeah. If you have any jobs, let me know. Yeah. And [00:57:30] he said, I will get you a job because that time dental therapy was boom. Everybody [00:57:35] wanted a therapist. So that’s how I got into my dentist. I started working [00:57:40] as a therapist. I would say June 2022. [00:57:45] And that’s when I passed my oral part one and part two in the same year, [00:57:50] because I just wanted to get it done out of the way.

Payman Langroudi: That’s also a tough exam, right?

Perrin Shah: Very tough exam. [00:57:55]

Payman Langroudi: So were you hitting the books hard?

Perrin Shah: More of smart study, I would say, because the passing percentage [00:58:00] is 50%. You should know what you are studying. Yeah, because you’ll forget after that. I’m pretty sure [00:58:05] nothing. Nothing helps. Only the communication skills helps. So I would say any [00:58:10] overseas dentist coming to the UK should know the communication skills. Thank you. [00:58:15] Sorry. How can I help you? It’s lovely to meet you. And all those things are required in this [00:58:20] country for the patients.

Payman Langroudi: Super important, super important.

Perrin Shah: It’s every day thing and [00:58:25] this is what they teach us in Harare.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So then [00:58:30] you passed part one. Yeah. And carried on as a therapist. Yes. And [00:58:35] then.

Perrin Shah: Passed my part two in the same year.

Payman Langroudi: And then.

Perrin Shah: And then joined.

Payman Langroudi: You were available [00:58:40] to be a dentist.

Perrin Shah: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And with my dentist like very sort of supportive at that point. [00:58:45] Very supportive because they knew who you were by now. Right.

Perrin Shah: And the criteria to get [00:58:50] registered with the NHS performer list was you should have at least three months of experience in the last two [00:58:55] years. Well, like us being in being Covid dentist, we had [00:59:00] no experience. Yeah. So they gave us private work for first three months. Yeah. [00:59:05] And that we used it for our experience to apply for the performer list. So this is how it [00:59:10] took six months. And then I had a stable private list and started on NHS. [00:59:15] And then there you go.

Payman Langroudi: What a journey. What a journey, man. [00:59:20] Yeah. You know, just to get to work.

Perrin Shah: Yeah. It was crazy to. To [00:59:25] start working as a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I bet you felt proud of yourself right at the end of that journey. Yeah. [00:59:30] So then now. Now you’re an associate at a my dentist. [00:59:35] Do you sometimes reflect on, you know, you were the boss in [00:59:40] your previous place in India, and now you’re an associate here, and it must [00:59:45] it must grate on you. So that, I mean, when when you were working in your own place, [00:59:50] you could change something tomorrow.

Perrin Shah: Yeah. It takes a very long time [00:59:55] to get your work approved. They do approve all of my requests. It [01:00:00] just takes a very long time.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of requests? Like, if you’re looking for a new piece of equipment or something.

Perrin Shah: Yeah. [01:00:05] So let’s say a new, new material which I want to use. Yeah. You have to [01:00:10] fill in a material request. Yeah, you have to fill in a form. You have to write down what [01:00:15] advantage it will give to your patient, how it will upskill the income, and [01:00:20] what are the charges and how many days you work, and [01:00:25] then how many private patients you do. And then you submit this to the head nurse or the manager. They [01:00:30] take it forward and then you don’t know whether it will get approved or not. But till date they [01:00:35] haven’t even rejected even once. But it does take a long time. Very long time. How [01:00:40] long? At least four weeks. I would say.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not that bad. It’s not that bad. [01:00:45] You know, I’ve been surprised that they’ve been very good at approving our materials list. For instance, [01:00:50] you know, we did this composite, um, course as well. And it got to a point where I said, look, [01:00:55] why bother sending your people to the courts if they can’t get the materials?

Perrin Shah: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. But then but then they were [01:01:00] very good at it. They were very good with it. Um, you know, working for a corporate is a funny thing [01:01:05] because there are benefits to it. Yeah. And what I found is [01:01:10] this is before your time. Yeah, but maybe ten, 15 years ago, no [01:01:15] one used to do it on purpose. It was like, I’m just getting this job because, you know, I need a job. [01:01:20] But now I know. I know plenty of people who choose to go and work for a corporate. And, [01:01:25] you know, different corporates do different things. But it’s almost like, you know, what you’re going to get. [01:01:30] Yes. And when you go to the independent sector, you might get something fantastic like your, you know, [01:01:35] where you did work somewhere or you might get something. Yeah.

Perrin Shah: That’s very true. [01:01:40]

Payman Langroudi: You know, so knowing what you’re going to get is it’s kind of an important point. What else would you say are the [01:01:45] benefits?

Perrin Shah: I would say I when I was working as a nurse in an independent [01:01:50] practice, I could understand dentistry because I could know what was [01:01:55] happening. Um, with my with corporates, I would say, um, they pay [01:02:00] us on time. Every 15th you get money in your account no matter what. Yeah. Even if [01:02:05] it’s Christmas you get beforehand. Yeah, but with independent, I knew we used to keep [01:02:10] on asking, where’s the money for this month?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, my wife used to work in a place six months. She didn’t get paid. [01:02:15]

Perrin Shah: Yeah, so I knew this, and I was like, no, this is people have EMIs, people have mortgages, [01:02:20] and they rely on the salary. This is not done. And there would be always [01:02:25] some glitch in the accounts you have to keep on asking. I have seen associates when I was working [01:02:30] as a nurse, they used to keep they were behind the dentist. That our accountant [01:02:35] that. Why why is this wrong? But with corporates everything is so, so crystal clear. [01:02:40] Even if there’s something they are very good in getting back to you. Yeah, I would say that.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:02:45] do quite a lot of enlighten.

Perrin Shah: A lot. Yeah, I love it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What do [01:02:50] you think is the difference between why is it some dentists do loads and then you [01:02:55] get other dentists who just don’t want to talk about the colour of teeth. You know, like, why do you find it easy [01:03:00] and others find it so hard.

Perrin Shah: Personally, I feel it’s the mindset. [01:03:05] Yeah. If they think its price is too expensive, they’re not going to sell it. Yeah. How I [01:03:10] see is you’re getting the product, you’re getting the experience and you’re getting the colour. Yeah. [01:03:15] So why shouldn’t we charge this?

Payman Langroudi: But outside of charging, I mean then you could say okay, a [01:03:20] cheaper whitening, but I’m talking about whitening itself. A lot of dentists worry about I [01:03:25] don’t want to embarrass the patient. I don’t want to offend the patient. All these sort of things. Yeah. [01:03:30] Whereas others, it’s like water off a duck’s back. They feel like very comfortable. When I, when I was a [01:03:35] dentist. Before we even started the company. Right. I used to do loads and loads of whitening, which is kind of maybe the reason we went this way. [01:03:40] Yeah. I used to feel like if I don’t talk about it, I’ve done a disservice to the patient. [01:03:45] Yeah. I had no worry about it, but loads and loads of dentists, you know, have trouble [01:03:50] with anything that isn’t a youneed conversation. And, you know, whitening isn’t [01:03:55] a you need a conversation.

Perrin Shah: So I all I ask them is what are your are your concerns? [01:04:00] What do you like about your smile and what you don’t? And I would [01:04:05] say 99% of them say I don’t. Yeah, I don’t have 100% [01:04:10] the smile I want. And then my conversation starts from there. Okay. So how can I help [01:04:15] you?

Payman Langroudi: Is that you say that to every single patient. What do you like about your smile and what.

Perrin Shah: You tried to. Until I. Unless I’m running [01:04:20] late.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, of course, of course, of course. Yeah, but that’s a great starting point. That’s a great starting.

Perrin Shah: I’m trying. I’m trying to build [01:04:25] it. Make it a routine now. And, um, before [01:04:30] I started whitening, I was quite not sure would I [01:04:35] want to sell whitening because myself, I hate sensitivity. So when [01:04:40] I was doing my masters, um, there was a guy from the marketing team had [01:04:45] just come to, you know, sell his product. Yeah. And we just used [01:04:50] it and oh, my God, I had a bit of sensitivity, but my my, um, colleague, [01:04:55] he was, uh, he used to smoke a lot. What? So when he got his wife, he started crying. [01:05:00] He said, Baron, I can’t even have my dinner or not. I can drink my water. And then [01:05:05] I was like, oh my God. Whitening gives a lot of sensitivity. I’m not ever going to sell it to my patient. Yeah. When [01:05:10] I when I got to know about enlighten, I did the course with you and then I was [01:05:15] like, before I even I’m going to sell it to my patient, I’m going to do it on myself. So I got it done. [01:05:20] I was super pleased. I by third week I could see the difference myself. [01:05:25] My nurses started saying, oh Baron, what have you done to your teeth? They look so white. And [01:05:30] then I didn’t even do the top of, you know, the syringes and my shade is [01:05:35] still the same. And then that’s what I sell it.

Payman Langroudi: So once you, once you saw it for yourself, you got massively [01:05:40] confident to confident.

Perrin Shah: And I tell the patients that if I can do it, you can definitely [01:05:45] can. And if there’s sensitivity, I can’t promise there wouldn’t be. But I’m here to look after you and [01:05:50] oh my God, so many of my patients with tetracycline staining hypoplasia. [01:05:55] And they have had tears in their eyes because they never believed that [01:06:00] they could have achieved the shade. And that’s what gives me pleasure of me treating [01:06:05] the patients. So this is, I would say, my personal experience of selling enlightened to my patients as compared [01:06:10] to the other dentists in the practice.

Payman Langroudi: Have you tried the pen?

Perrin Shah: Not yet. [01:06:15]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you like that?

Perrin Shah: I have started with two patients who have given the pen.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, they haven’t finished yet.

Perrin Shah: But [01:06:20] now they are ongoing, so. But they haven’t come back to me with sensitivity. So I’m pretty much like. [01:06:25]

Payman Langroudi: You like that? Yeah. You know what we do when we develop the product? We try and focus on the super difficult patients. [01:06:30] Yeah. And once, once you get a patient like I’ve got one patient, there was a time where we used to tell [01:06:35] our customers, send us all the super difficult patients. I’ve got one patient. If she puts her tray [01:06:40] in no jail, she gets massive sensitivity. Oh, like massive sensitivity. Okay, [01:06:45] just by putting the tray in place here. So that patient ends up becoming one that I want to [01:06:50] test things on. Because the thought process is, if I can make any difference there. Then [01:06:55] the normal patient is going to get massive. Yeah, that’s the idea. Or get some patients who [01:07:00] get like tetracycline with very thin enamel. Yeah. That’s the biggest nightmare situation of them all. Yeah. If [01:07:05] you can get that patient anywhere at all, then a regular patient with enamel who’s not a [01:07:10] tetracycline, then you know, that’s actually how we got the attachments. Exactly. Came [01:07:15] from that.

Perrin Shah: And I would say I, I have received a lot of five [01:07:20] star Google reviews with enlighten, and I do only enlighten. So my dentist [01:07:25] now have I think several. They have had Philips and Enlighten [01:07:30] and I have never done any Philips on any of the patients, but I know [01:07:35] some of my nurses who were doing it. They said parent, let’s say today I want my teeth [01:07:40] are so sensitive, can you do something? And all I had to say is use Sensodyne. You know there’s [01:07:45] nothing else we can do. And then enlighten came in. I [01:07:50] have not even sold one Philips Phillips to any because I didn’t try it myself, so I don’t know [01:07:55] how I would be confident enough to give it to within time. I’m so I know [01:08:00] if anything goes wrong, I’m here to help you and I know you guys are fab, so [01:08:05] you guys are so easily accessible. Just a call away that this patient has this [01:08:10] problem. How can we fix it? And there you go. The next day the materials are in the [01:08:15] practice. So this is the service we like.

Payman Langroudi: Nice to hear.

Perrin Shah: That. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Nice to hear that. Um, [01:08:20] on this pod we like to talk about mistakes so [01:08:25] that, you know, we can learn from each other’s mistakes. What comes to mind when I say clinical [01:08:30] errors? What? What have you done?

Perrin Shah: Most important, I would feel communication.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: Even [01:08:35] if you missed out something small, which is small for you but big for the patient, [01:08:40] it brings out a massive, um, loss [01:08:45] of your patient. They lose trust in you.

Payman Langroudi: To give me the example. [01:08:50]

Perrin Shah: Um, let’s say about, um, [01:08:55] Crown. Yeah. You give all the options for the crown, but you missed out on [01:09:00] a metal crown, which is the cheapest just because it’s a private patient. Yeah. And then [01:09:05] because metal is NHS, I work both NHS and private, so it doesn’t come to your [01:09:10] mind straight away. But then that’s what I learned from that mistake. That. So the patient was [01:09:15] just said why didn’t you give an option of metal crown on private. [01:09:20] Because that’s an option. I said 100%. And then he didn’t come. He [01:09:25] lost trust in me, basically because he was like, this dentist is just.

Payman Langroudi: He thought you were pushing [01:09:30] the private. He was a private patient. Yeah. Yeah.

Perrin Shah: So that’s that [01:09:35] happened very early in my career with my dentist. Yeah. And then I was like, no. Now [01:09:40] my notes say metal ceramic fused to metal, porcelain [01:09:45] fused metal and zirconia or porcelain. So I always remember I have [01:09:50] to tell them and it’s it’s up to them.

Payman Langroudi: What about your your most difficult patient [01:09:55] was that was that actually I’m going to guess that was the UK that wasn’t [01:10:00] India in India. Uh, no. No, I’m going to guess your most difficult one was British. [01:10:05] Am I wrong.

Perrin Shah: 100% in India? You can be nice to the patient. You [01:10:10] can call them. You can give a box of sweets.

Payman Langroudi: Fix this.

Perrin Shah: Problem. Fix this problem. No, [01:10:15] you don’t have anything in your mind that they’re going to sue you at any point here. There’s [01:10:20] always constant worry with what you hear about the cases in the practice.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: Oh [01:10:25] my God. Every patient you feel today, they are so good. Tomorrow they can be your [01:10:30] complaint. So I had a patient. She was a private patient. [01:10:35] Saw a colleague eight months ago, uh, with a pike apical [01:10:40] periodontitis. Okay, with severe pain. And the dentist had opened up. The third [01:10:45] gave a dressing and just advise Advice. Root canal treatment with crown or replacement. Options [01:10:50] extraction and replacement. So she took. She was fine. [01:10:55] She didn’t come for eight months. The pain came again. She saw me for emergency. We charge [01:11:00] £99 for emergency. She came in and she came and she was very rude. [01:11:05] She said, you guys don’t do a good job. Just get the tooth out. And I said, okay, that’s fine. Quite [01:11:10] young 35 year old. And I said, we can’t save your tooth. If you want to [01:11:15] now get the tooth out right now. I said, okay, that’s fine. I have 30 [01:11:20] minutes. I’ll try my best. I got the tooth out, gave sutures [01:11:25] everything. And I said, okay, the healing will take place. The post-operative [01:11:30] instructions. I gave her everything. And I advised her some painkillers. In an [01:11:35] hour, she calls back and she said, the pain is horrible.

Perrin Shah: I said, yes, you need to take your painkillers because [01:11:40] the numbing injection has worn off now. She said, I took one. It’s not helping. [01:11:45] I’m helping. I’m taking Co-codamol. Nothing is helping. And. And she was just calling the practice every [01:11:50] five minutes, and they were telling me that this patient is constantly calling us do something. [01:11:55] It’s like. Okay, I said. Then she I called her, I [01:12:00] said, what’s wrong? Give some time. Everything will be fine. She said, no, I called my GP. [01:12:05] The GP said, you have to fix me. I said, yes, I’ll fix you but just give yourself [01:12:10] some time. Take painkillers. If you don’t take Co-codamol, it’s too strong. Just take two ibuprofen. [01:12:15] You’ll be fine. Fine. Next day she calls back and she said, [01:12:20] I think the socket is infected, I need antibiotics. I said, I can’t prescribe you [01:12:25] antibiotics over the phone. I have to see you first. She came in again. The socket was not infected. [01:12:30] Nothing I touched. She didn’t had pain, but she just said the pain is too bad. [01:12:35] Give me antibiotics. And I was a bit sceptical. I was like.

Payman Langroudi: What do you think was going on there?

Perrin Shah: It’s [01:12:40] just anxiety. It was more was more psychological, I would say. And what [01:12:45] happened was I said, okay, I’ll give you antibiotics. And she she started to threaten me that [01:12:50] the GP said, if the dentist doesn’t give you antibiotics, the GP is going to file a case. And I said, no, it [01:12:55] doesn’t work like that. I know what you are saying. Yeah. And then I [01:13:00] gave her antibiotics in the end. I said, if she’s happy, just take your antibiotics. Yeah. She didn’t come back [01:13:05] three months later. She sent an email, a written complaint that [01:13:10] she wants her money back. £99. And I was like, I have done [01:13:15] everything you could. I have given you antibiotics. I got the tooth out. I saw you for follow up.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:13:20] did you do?

Perrin Shah: I contacted my indemnity.

Payman Langroudi: For £99.

Perrin Shah: Because that’s that’s the rule [01:13:25] in the.

Payman Langroudi: In my dentist.

Perrin Shah: My dentist? Yeah. She said give money [01:13:30] back. She said it’s up to you. But the patient was very local. So I was like, [01:13:35] if I she’s got back to me after three months because somebody has told her to try to file a written [01:13:40] complaint and you might get your money back. So I said, let’s try a return, a response [01:13:45] to her complaint and take it from there. So I didn’t give her money back and that was [01:13:50] it.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Nothing happened.

Perrin Shah: Nothing happened.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, nice.

Perrin Shah: So I thought if I give her £99. [01:13:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: This is a word of mouth. She’ll tell everyone in the area [01:14:00] that she gives money back. Just file a complaint.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a possibility.

Perrin Shah: I tried, but [01:14:05] then that’s it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s also. It’s not nice to give [01:14:10] money back when you feel like someone’s trying something on you.

Perrin Shah: Yeah, that’s what I felt.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not about the [01:14:15] money. It’s about the. The victory. The person’s giving. Yeah. On the other hand, um, [01:14:20] when I was a dentist, I was giving money back all the time. Like, if the slightest. I just give money back when people didn’t used [01:14:25] to ask for their money back. Like to be super duper on, like, any small problem. Yeah, [01:14:30] you just try that once. Although, I don’t know, maybe in my dentist there’s a process to giving money back. [01:14:35]

Perrin Shah: No, no, you can give it straight away.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Can you?

Perrin Shah: And it’s up to us. I have given money to the [01:14:40] patients back if they are not happy. I said you are not happy. Take the money back.

Payman Langroudi: So hear me out. Hear me out. The [01:14:45] you get a patient you’re doing. I know three fillings on them. The patient says something. Something, [01:14:50] anything. The next visit says, oh, I had a little bit of sensitivity on one of them, but it’s settling down. Yeah. [01:14:55] Surprise and delight. I’ve taken the charge of that one off. Yeah, it’s it’s such [01:15:00] a weird sort of. It doesn’t sound like it’s the right thing to do. Yeah, but you win this massive [01:15:05] win with the patient at that point. Yeah. I used to buy, um, Sonic airs myself [01:15:10] as an associate and surprise and delight patients with them for no reason. [01:15:15] Yeah. And by the way, I here’s free electric toothbrush. The amount of patients that would then come to me [01:15:20] because these people would refer to me, I would give them to the patients. I’d done sort of high end [01:15:25] treatment to. Yeah, yeah. The amount of work I got from these Sonic airs. Yeah. And I remember [01:15:30] my boss being sort of he didn’t want to be involved in it, so I bought my own ones. Yeah.

Perrin Shah: No, I [01:15:35] have.

Payman Langroudi: Surprise and delight. Works well. Or sometimes, uh, extirpate the park. Get the patient [01:15:40] out of the pain. Yeah. No charge.

Perrin Shah: No charge. Yeah. Yeah. I’ve done so much I give. [01:15:45] Yeah. I’ve. I’ve given them money for root canal treatments back, which is like 650, £700,000 [01:15:50] sometimes. Yeah. But this patient, I just thought, why come after three months? [01:15:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.

Perrin Shah: Because somebody has told her something that try doing this. And I was like, no, [01:16:00] she’s very local to us. It’s just going to spread.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an interesting point though. I never thought about it that [01:16:05] way. It’s interesting point.

Perrin Shah: I thought let’s try.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah.

Perrin Shah: I spoke to my colleague as well. She’s quite senior in the [01:16:10] practice. Yeah. And she said, yeah, I tried.

Payman Langroudi: What does the future hold for you? Me? [01:16:15] You’re going to open another practice?

Perrin Shah: I would want to. So currently I’m doing my [01:16:20] MSC in endodontics. Are you with Simply Endo. If you have heard about it. Yeah, I know that [01:16:25] university. They are affiliated to University of Chester.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Perrin Shah: And I’m in. [01:16:30] I have finished my year one. I’ve, I’m going to go to year two in February [01:16:35] which is the speech of diploma. You can leave after that if you want. Or you can complete your thesis, which [01:16:40] is dissertation in year three. So I don’t know what’s going to happen after year two, but I’ve started doing a lot of [01:16:45] root canal within the practice.

Payman Langroudi: I like that.

Perrin Shah: So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then Ender. Ender [01:16:50] is underrated, man.

Perrin Shah: I think it’s bread and butter of the practice, which most of the people don’t like it. [01:16:55] Yeah, but.

Payman Langroudi: It’s really.

Perrin Shah: Underrated.

Payman Langroudi: It’s really underrated by dentists because we’ve all had one [01:17:00] difficult endo when we were a student. And as a job, I think the best thing about [01:17:05] it is you don’t have to sell anything. Yeah. Yeah. If let’s say, let’s say you get internal referral [01:17:10] for endo. Yeah. You’ll be busy doing high like value work. [01:17:15] Yeah. Getting people out of pain, which is always lovely. Yeah, but also not selling a goddamn [01:17:20] thing to anyone. There’s a nice thing about the pressure of sales. It’s a pain in [01:17:25] the end when you’re a dentist, you know?

Perrin Shah: Yeah. And it’s so straightforward. You do a root canal [01:17:30] treatment, and then you just say you need a crown. Otherwise the. Yeah, yeah, it will have [01:17:35] problems. And the patient already has paid money towards the root canal and they [01:17:40] go for Crown straight away. Don’t even think should I pay for this or not. So it’s a win win [01:17:45] situation I would say. Yeah. And it’s bread and butter. There’s [01:17:50] so many endo cases every day. If people start liking, they’ll start making, they’ll [01:17:55] start seeing the difference okay.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re doing that. And is there plans for a practice or.

Perrin Shah: No I would want [01:18:00] to open my practice. Yeah 100% at some point.

Payman Langroudi: Cool. Indulge me. Let’s say let’s say you had [01:18:05] like a dream practice. Let’s say billionaire came over and said go go crazy. What are [01:18:10] you thinking? Are you like, high end cosmetic or like which which kind of which angle would you go more [01:18:15] towards?

Perrin Shah: Paediatric dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really?

Perrin Shah: Yeah. Because what [01:18:20] I’ve seen in southwest is there’s no private. There’s one in Bristol. [01:18:25] Yeah. There’s nothing else. Most of the all of the patients go to Bristol Dental Hospital. [01:18:30] Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And I think Private Pete has actually ignored, you know, because. But [01:18:35] I would have taken my kid to a Private Pete’s if I, if if I wasn’t a dentist, you know. [01:18:40]

Perrin Shah: And I would want, I would want myself to qualify for sedation first.

Payman Langroudi: You’re [01:18:45] a glutton for punishment, man. But I suppose you need to. Right. [01:18:50]

Perrin Shah: Yeah. So if I want to do Pete’s, I should know. Sedation. Yeah. So get [01:18:55] that sorted first. Endo is on the way. And then hopefully a practice. [01:19:00]

Payman Langroudi: I’m impressed.

Perrin Shah: Man. But I have to save up a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: Unless [01:19:05] you have some investors, let me know.

Payman Langroudi: The billionaire? Yeah. Um, [01:19:10] how do you find Bristol? One of my favourite cities, I love Bristol.

Perrin Shah: Lovely. It’s. [01:19:15]

Payman Langroudi: Do you live in Bristol?

Perrin Shah: I live in Bristol. I live in Frenchay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Oh, friendship. Yeah, I know it.

Perrin Shah: Yeah. Lovely [01:19:20] city. There’s so much to do. There’s so much to do in Somerset. Keeps you as busy all the time. [01:19:25] So many walking trails. We bike a lot.

Payman Langroudi: So do you. We’re gonna [01:19:30] end it end it with the usual fantasy dinner party.

Perrin Shah: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests, dead [01:19:35] or alive.

Perrin Shah: Um, so it would be my grandmother. [01:19:40] She’s no more, unfortunately.

Payman Langroudi: Were you close?

Perrin Shah: Very close. [01:19:45]

Payman Langroudi: On your mom’s side.

Perrin Shah: On my dad’s side? Yeah. She was. She. She [01:19:50] was the person where she was very social. She was a principal in a school, and she [01:19:55] was working just a day before she passed away. Oh, she was people [01:20:00] friendly. And I would want to become like her at some point in my life. [01:20:05] I wish I could go even closer to her.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Perrin Shah: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Who else?

Perrin Shah: Um. I [01:20:10] lost a very close friend in my dental [01:20:15] school. So it was an accident. She was my roommate.

Payman Langroudi: Uh.

Perrin Shah: In [01:20:20] hostel, and we were coming back from Mumbai to, uh, [01:20:25] the dental school, and it was a three hour journey, basically in train. So once we reach the station, we [01:20:30] used to have this, um, Uber cabs and we were in that and [01:20:35] the truck, the there was a truck passing by next to [01:20:40] our cab and the tire, the rear tire just bursted. [01:20:45] Bearsted like just I don’t know the pressure or what, I don’t know. The [01:20:50] driver passed away at that point. My friend passed away at that point, the [01:20:55] one in front of the driver is the one next to him. She had 36 [01:21:00] bone fractures.

[TRANSITION]: Oh my God.

Perrin Shah: And oh my God. [01:21:05]

Payman Langroudi: And you were there. You were on the.

Perrin Shah: Other side on the back in the in the car behind that. So I’ve seen everything. We [01:21:10] we stopped there and I could see organs on the.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness.

Perrin Shah: I [01:21:15] just don’t want to go back there. But I wish we had spent some more time together because she was [01:21:20] so lovely. Yeah. And yeah, she didn’t. And that’s destiny, [01:21:25] you know. You don’t know. It wasn’t your fault. Nobody’s fault. It was the truck next.

Payman Langroudi: To.

Perrin Shah: You. But [01:21:30] it’s. It’s how it is.

Payman Langroudi: What do you believe [01:21:35] about that? Do you believe in destiny?

Perrin Shah: No, I don’t believe in destiny.

Payman Langroudi: Karma.

Perrin Shah: Karma. [01:21:40]

Payman Langroudi: Do you believe in karma?

Perrin Shah: A very strong believer. Yeah. I don’t believe in luck.

Payman Langroudi: Do [01:21:45] you believe in God?

Perrin Shah: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Took a bit too long to say that.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:21:50] I mean, it’s.

Perrin Shah: More of a belief.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: But it gives me calmness in [01:21:55] myself. It makes me when I pray. Yeah, it just gives me a sense of satisfaction. [01:22:00] Uh, so we we are so grateful to God, to parents for the life they [01:22:05] have given us.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm.

Perrin Shah: So it’s it’s just something invisible. But you have a very strong karma. [01:22:10]

Payman Langroudi: Karma. Do you believe in, in, in like supernatural karma.

Perrin Shah: And [01:22:15] it has happened to me.

[TRANSITION]: Supernatural.

Perrin Shah: Yeah. What you do will come back to you. [01:22:20]

Payman Langroudi: No. But what do you do? I was good to you in Bristol. Now you’re good to me now. Yeah. It’s obvious. It’s an obvious thing. [01:22:25] That’s not supernatural. That’s obvious. That’s just. That’s just. That’s just one thing leads to another. But [01:22:30] do you believe in supernatural? Go on. Karma happens. I find some money on the floor. I [01:22:35] don’t hand it in. I go and buy something. That thing screws my life up. Yes.

Perrin Shah: So if. [01:22:40] Let’s say you find £1,000 note on the floor, you [01:22:45] take it, you know it’s not yours.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: You buy a very good phone [01:22:50] for you. I’m pretty sure that phone will not last long. 110%. [01:22:55]

Payman Langroudi: I love that 110%. Because.

Perrin Shah: Because I have [01:23:00] not been through that. But I have seen that even if just.

Payman Langroudi: Like bad energy. [01:23:05]

Perrin Shah: Yeah, if I have betrayed someone or I’ve just given some negative comments to someone or I’ve done [01:23:10] something wrong unknowingly, that has come back to me in the same situation with a different [01:23:15] person. And I could sense it that, oh, this. That’s what it was I did wrong [01:23:20] to that person today. It’s happening to me. I’m a very, very I could I wish I could make a tattoo of karma. [01:23:25] I’m so.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry. You know? But don’t you believe good things happen to bad people as well?

Perrin Shah: They do.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:23:30] that’s not karma, is it? It’s anti anti karma.

Perrin Shah: But it’s if they would have done something good [01:23:35] in their life.

[TRANSITION]: Oh I see.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah I love it. I [01:23:40] didn’t think our conversation would be going there. But a third person.

Perrin Shah: Um [01:23:45] third person I really want to meet Steve Jobs.

[TRANSITION]: Oh [01:23:50] nice.

Perrin Shah: From where he was and where he went, it’s more. He [01:23:55] was into business. A very ordinary man. Often he was very ordinary man [01:24:00] from where he was to where he went, leaving behind a legacy.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Perrin Shah: Which [01:24:05] is just doing numbers in the industry. Yeah. I would want to meet him and [01:24:10] just shake hands, you know that. How did you achieve this?

Payman Langroudi: It’s not the first time Steve Jobs has [01:24:15] been invited to one of these parties. That’s amazing. But I’ve really learned a [01:24:20] lot. Thank you so much for doing this.

Perrin Shah: Thank you, Payman for inviting me. [01:24:25] It’s been an honour, as I said, and it’s been lovely to be here at your studio. Thank you so much.

[TRANSITION]: Thanks. [01:24:30]

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Alicia Willis on to the podcast [01:24:35] as our My Dentist series continues. And you know, you’ve got the [01:24:40] privilege of being the first dental nurse on this podcast, the [01:24:45] first real dental nurse, because we’ve had a couple of dentists who did dental nursing, [01:24:50] in fact, just before, um, but the first real dental nurse and I really wanted [01:24:55] to get dental nurse onto this pod for ages now. Um, how long have you been a nurse [01:25:00] for?

Alicia Willis: About three and a half years. Roughly trained at my dentist. [01:25:05]

Payman Langroudi: And you? Have you had other jobs before that?

Alicia Willis: Yeah. [01:25:10] Retail.

Payman Langroudi: Retail?

Alicia Willis: Yeah. Anything that I could really get my hands on while I [01:25:15] was in school to earn extra money. And I never, ever saw myself doing this job.

Payman Langroudi: But how did it [01:25:20] come about?

Alicia Willis: I got made redundant from a retail job. I kind of needed that kick to do something [01:25:25] more. I don’t know. Worthwhile, I suppose, in my eyes. Um, [01:25:30] I went to er to do nursing at university as, like to work in a hospital. [01:25:35]

Payman Langroudi: Proper nursing?

Alicia Willis: Proper nursing. Decided that was not for me. Hard, hard. Really [01:25:40] hard. Long shifts. Yeah. And I just feel so sorry for everybody, [01:25:45] and I can’t. You can’t go into that job and have such a big heart. Aha. [01:25:50] Um, so I got the opportunity to become a dental [01:25:55] nurse and thought, why not give it a go, see how you get on. And I actually [01:26:00] really enjoy it.

Payman Langroudi: Do you like it from the beginning?

Alicia Willis: Yeah. I thought it was a lot to learn. I [01:26:05] can’t imagine being a dentist. Like, I can imagine there’s so much more, obviously, but [01:26:10] it’s just different. Really different. I never I’ve never [01:26:15] even considered looking at teeth. And now I look at look at everybody’s teeth.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re Claire’s nurse. [01:26:20] Yeah. Sometimes. Right.

Alicia Willis: Every time.

Payman Langroudi: Every time. Okay. And you rotate around some of the other [01:26:25] dentists as well. One thing I’m quite interested in. Have you only ever worked at this? My dentist practice. You’ve never worked at a different. [01:26:30] Okay, so.

Alicia Willis: So I’ve done the odd day.

Payman Langroudi: At other practice. Yeah. Yeah. So [01:26:35] sometimes, you know, it’s interesting to sort of see, you know, how do different businesses run? Yeah. But [01:26:40] I’m quite interested in the question of how do different dentists run. Because [01:26:45] you never know as a dentist, you never know whether what you’re saying and doing is [01:26:50] different to what other people are saying and doing, because you don’t really watch many other [01:26:55] dentists work.

Alicia Willis: I suppose not. They’re all different [01:27:00] in their ways, obviously some more strict than others, I suppose. [01:27:05]

Payman Langroudi: On patient.

Alicia Willis: Both.

Payman Langroudi: Go on.

Alicia Willis: Um, I think [01:27:10] the way that some people come across dentists can be like, I don’t know. For example. [01:27:15] Suction. Sometimes it’s a bit like, oh, I’ve missed my cue. You haven’t. [01:27:20] It’s just the way they speak, the way they are and come across, I think [01:27:25] as well, in front of patients. Dentists are different than when the patient’s not in the room.

Payman Langroudi: Some are right. Do [01:27:30] you find some aren’t though.

Alicia Willis: No some aren’t.

Payman Langroudi: Some are themselves the same.

Alicia Willis: Yeah. Some are still chatty. Some. [01:27:35] Some don’t like you to be chatty when there’s a patient. It’s more serious. Really? [01:27:40] Yeah. Some. Yeah. Some are different.

Payman Langroudi: And so when you’re working with a new dentist, let’s say [01:27:45] you’re having to gauge. What. What kind of dentist is this?

Alicia Willis: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have [01:27:50] you gotten quite good at figuring it out?

Alicia Willis: I’d like to think so. You you can kind of. I find notes [01:27:55] and are a big thing. Yeah. You know, whether they like to hog the computer or not, [01:28:00] hog the computer as to whether or not you’re more of a note writer than a discussion. Um, [01:28:05] but yeah, it’s easy to gauge to start with, I think just [01:28:10] by the initial conversation you have with them as to whether or not they care to get to know you. If [01:28:15] I’ve just stepped foot in the room, I’ve never met them. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then. So let’s let’s say you’ve got [01:28:20] a dentist who don’t click with. Then your whole life, your whole day [01:28:25] is now ruined. Ruined in a way. Yeah.

Alicia Willis: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And you know, we do this other podcast. [01:28:30] It’s like a mental health podcast. And, you know, we’ve been really delving into this question [01:28:35] of why do dentists take their own lives much more than loads of other professionals. [01:28:40] Yeah. And I think it’s a very multifactorial thing. But there is this question [01:28:45] of you spend the whole day with your four walls and this one other person, and [01:28:50] if if you and this one person don’t particularly get on or whatever [01:28:55] it is like, maybe it might be nothing to do with you. It might be that person’s own life is stressed [01:29:00] out or I don’t know. The boss has said something to that person to piss him off. Or if you and that one person [01:29:05] aren’t clicking your whole day is totally different to the opposite, [01:29:10] where sometimes you know you really click with click with your nurse and you’re laughing and you’re enjoying and yeah, that [01:29:15] sort of thing. And you know, as a dental nurse, you you’re working with so many different dentists [01:29:20] that you can see that that difference in the working relationship. [01:29:25]

Alicia Willis: Definitely. It’s me and Claire love a sing song. Any given chance we can. [01:29:30] The radio is turned up and we’re singing. It’s just enjoyable. And with dentists, [01:29:35] they are all so different. And some don’t have the radio on. Some like the silence, [01:29:40] some would chat and some will leave the room for a coffee when you’re just alone. So you [01:29:45] get to know who’s who. But I suppose I’m quite chill about if [01:29:50] they’re. If they’re not bothered, then they’re not bothered. If they don’t want to sit and chat or don’t want to sit and chat. [01:29:55] Some days are different for everyone, I suppose.

Payman Langroudi: But then what about this whole hierarchy [01:30:00] of a dental practice? Do you get to get sometimes people sort of, [01:30:05] who clearly want to stamp their authority over you?

Alicia Willis: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Go on. Give me [01:30:10] give me give me an example of how how that pans out. Like what do they do? So I [01:30:15] like things this way. And what what is it?

Alicia Willis: Um. Specifically [01:30:20] things like how you are. How how you mix your alginate. [01:30:25] That’s a big one, I find.

Payman Langroudi: Are they focussed on that?

Alicia Willis: Yeah. Like just different things [01:30:30] that, like, everyone is so different. So alginate. Some people like it better than others. [01:30:35] Some people would rather have it. So it’s literally about to set going in the patient’s mouth. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone’s so different. [01:30:40] Um, and if you do it wrong a couple of times, in their eyes, it’s wrong in your eyes it’s not. [01:30:45] I think they’re they’re like, no, listen to me. I’m, I’m in charge here, [01:30:50] which is fine. But it’s just obviously learning that they don’t mean things. [01:30:55]

Payman Langroudi: I was with a nurse. The treatment finishes, but [01:31:00] your work isn’t finished. Oh, no. Your work almost feels like it’s just continuous. Yeah, [01:31:05] like there is no stop to it because, like, you’re cleaning and cleaning. And then once you’re done, it’s time for [01:31:10] the next patient. Yeah.

Alicia Willis: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Does that does that make the day go quicker, or does that [01:31:15] really tie the hell out of you? Because it must do, I think. Okay. The dentist is doing the notes, [01:31:20] but there’s some sort of break between the being on show and break and being on show and [01:31:25] break.

Alicia Willis: Yeah. It. Some days it’s fine. I suppose if you work private or NHS. [01:31:30] Nhs days are long. They can feel like you’ve got 3040 patients [01:31:35] a day. It does get tiring. Um, but yeah, as soon as you’ve cleaned and set up, the next [01:31:40] one’s in and then out. And it can sometimes seem like, oh, it’s 10:00. I didn’t even realise [01:31:45] the time has gone that quick. Other days I’m thinking, when’s lunch? So it [01:31:50] can vary.

Payman Langroudi: Would you get the dentist who says, hey, do you want to go ahead now? And there’s ten minutes [01:31:55] to lunch.

Alicia Willis: And yeah, no, the root canal box is not coming out at 10 to 12. [01:32:00]

[TRANSITION]: Really?

Alicia Willis: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But sometimes he says, the patient says, yeah, let’s go. Yeah. [01:32:05] You’re not you’re not going to do anything about that, right? There’s nothing to.

Alicia Willis: Do about that. Nothing I can do about that. I’m off. [01:32:10] I go to get the box.

Payman Langroudi: So then I don’t know from the outside. I get the feeling [01:32:15] that there’s obviously there’s good and bad things in every job. But isn’t the worst thing about [01:32:20] the job that you’re not in control of the day?

Alicia Willis: Yeah, I suppose [01:32:25] it is. I’m not. Then again, I, I work on reception [01:32:30] some days. So.

Payman Langroudi: Which one do you prefer?

Alicia Willis: Oh, nursing.

[TRANSITION]: Really?

Alicia Willis: Yeah. [01:32:35]

Payman Langroudi: Why? On reception, you have to ask for money and stuff.

Alicia Willis: Yeah. And everyone will come down and go. This is the worst part, [01:32:40] because they have to pay and reception. It’s nice because you can chat a bit more. You’ve [01:32:45] got time to because they’re just paying and they don’t have to leave and things like that. But [01:32:50] a lot I find if a patient. This is an example, I’ve been on reception, I’ve checked [01:32:55] a patient in and they’re angry because the dentist is running late. Well, I’ve just sat down as a nurse [01:33:00] to check you in, and I’m now your nurse in surgery. And then the [01:33:05] instant attitude changes when they see the dentist and realise, I’ve just spoken to you like rubbish [01:33:10] at reception, and actually now you’re my nurse and I don’t. I find that [01:33:15] people are more rude in reception than they are in surgery. So no, [01:33:20] it’s.

Payman Langroudi: I remember times where the receptionist and the nurse saying, this patient’s [01:33:25] kicking off, and then they come to me and they’re sweet as pie.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That happens.

Alicia Willis: A lot.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:33:30] that must piss you off.

Alicia Willis: Yeah it does. Because you can, you [01:33:35] know, your patience as well. So you know who’s ruder than others, I suppose. Um, [01:33:40] but yeah, when they come in and they see your face and they know you, then you’ve got to nurse for [01:33:45] them. They’re like, oh, you can tell. They think, oh no, I messed up at reception.

Payman Langroudi: What about [01:33:50] do you sometimes can you sometimes tell this is a nervous patient?

Alicia Willis: Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Before the dentist figures [01:33:55] it out.

Alicia Willis: Yeah. When I’ve take them up the stairs and they don’t speak, and I’m like, [01:34:00] are you okay? Have you had a nice day? No. Not now. I’m here. Well, I don’t like being here either. [01:34:05] I kind of have to try and break the ice a bit, saying I’m at work like it’s not great for me, but [01:34:10] I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s such an important part of the job, though. Yeah, because in the end [01:34:15] it’s going to focus in on that tooth.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Whereas you can [01:34:20] reassure I mean it’s amazing what a little touch on the shoulder from the dental nurse at [01:34:25] the right moment. Yeah. Can reassure that patient. And you know what. We’re so in it ourselves [01:34:30] here. We completely forget what a nightmare it is being a patient. Yeah. When was the last [01:34:35] time you had a filling?

[TRANSITION]: Um. Excuse [01:34:40] me.

Payman Langroudi: Or anything done? Have you had anything done?

Alicia Willis: Yeah. I’ve had. I’ve had a filling, [01:34:45] um, scale and polish. It’s not always the nicest thing, but having someone [01:34:50] there, you know, that you trust as well, I suppose, because you don’t know the dentist. And also [01:34:55] you don’t know your nurse, but you know that someone’s there sucking [01:35:00] the water away. That is not letting you drown. Stuff. Just little things like that. That I [01:35:05] suppose. And we can chat to them and reassure them. And if I’ve had something done, I’ll [01:35:10] say, look, I’ve had this done, this is what it feels like. And that’s my, my big thing as well [01:35:15] is that I’ve never had an injection in my mouth.

Payman Langroudi: Have you.

Alicia Willis: No, no. So when someone [01:35:20] says, how does that feel. I don’t I don’t know. I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Know.

Alicia Willis: Sorry. So [01:35:25] which is really hard.

Payman Langroudi: You should have one done tomorrow.

Alicia Willis: Yeah, but no Saturday. It’s my day off. [01:35:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Okay.

Alicia Willis: But. But no, like, I haven’t had it done, so I can’t say to them this [01:35:35] is what it feels like. Claire says it feels like you’ve been punched in the mouth. I don’t know what [01:35:40] that feels like. I also haven’t been punched in the mouth.

Payman Langroudi: What are some things about being a dental [01:35:45] nurse that most dentists don’t appreciate? Probably [01:35:50] some dentists don’t appreciate.

Alicia Willis: Yeah. Um, probably [01:35:55] a time spent in, like, the decon room. Like [01:36:00] with all the instruments, all the work that you put into spending the time when the dentist [01:36:05] downed tools and goes home, we spend cleaning down, putting away all the instruments ready [01:36:10] for the morning so they can turn up in their days. Easy. I’d hate. I’d hate [01:36:15] for in the morning to walk into a surgery and it’s empty. Because what use is that to [01:36:20] anyone? And then you rush in in the morning. So I do find that some dentists will go home [01:36:25] instantly. When that patient leaves. They’ll follow them out, come back in the morning and don’t appreciate the work that’s done [01:36:30] when they leave to make sure it’s right for the morning, because there is a lot behind it.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:36:35] bet.

Alicia Willis: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What else?

Alicia Willis: Um, it’s [01:36:40] a really hard question. It’s not something I think about. I [01:36:45] mean, I just get on with it.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you must get dentists who ask you to make them a cup [01:36:50] of tea.

Alicia Willis: Yes, but I’m also quite quick at saying. Can I have some?

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:36:55] really?

Alicia Willis: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And the opposite. Right. The right? The dentist offers to make you a cup of tea.

Alicia Willis: Yeah, we’re quite lucky [01:37:00] in our practice. We don’t have anyone that’s we don’t have many that think of a hierarchy [01:37:05] either. Really? Yeah. We’re quite lucky. Um, like [01:37:10] I’ll say, have we got time for a cup of tea? Like, if we’ve got a gap or if they say, right, let’s [01:37:15] get the next one in and then we’ve got longer.

Payman Langroudi: I’m just going to have a lot of work to do. [01:37:20] Sorry.

Alicia Willis: It’s all right. Um. So. [01:37:25] Yeah, I wouldn’t say it’s it’s hard work. It’s it just [01:37:30] kind of flows and. No, I do get a cup of tea sometimes. If, if it’s a good day.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:37:35] about career progression.

Alicia Willis: Within my dentist?

Payman Langroudi: Well, as a dental [01:37:40] nurse, I feel like in our profession, we’ve kind of failed in this area. Some [01:37:45] practices are great at it. Some practices. You come in as a trainee, become a nurse, [01:37:50] then further qualifications. They even push people to become hygienists. [01:37:55]

Alicia Willis: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Even dentists. It happens.

Alicia Willis: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um. Tco [01:38:00] rolls, head of reception. The manager rolls these sort of things. And I think in a [01:38:05] corporate, there is much more scope for this sort of thing. Yeah. Than an independent. But, but [01:38:10] but I do come across a bunch of practice principals who say [01:38:15] I don’t want an ambitious nurse. I want someone who comes in, [01:38:20] does their bit, leaves and doesn’t want to go any further in their career, which is heartbreaking, [01:38:25] really, in a way. But you kind of you kind of get it right because they’re saying, you [01:38:30] know, that’s that person in that job and that’s the stable person not constantly moving on. And they have [01:38:35] to.

Alicia Willis: But then for that individual it’s not.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. By the way. By the way, we should we should get that [01:38:40] cleared. There are some individuals who want that job.

Alicia Willis: Probably.

Payman Langroudi: You know, they don’t want to think about [01:38:45] career progression. I mean, maybe it’s not an easy life. Maybe it’s got three children in as a single mum [01:38:50] and just wants to pay the bills, you know, and, you know, you know, doesn’t want doesn’t want any [01:38:55] further stress. You know, it depends on the situation. But the question on [01:39:00] career progression, I think as a as a profession it’s something [01:39:05] that’s lacking. Do where are you with that? I mean, where are you at now? Where do you [01:39:10] want to be? Are they in? My dentist is there. Do they encourage career progression? [01:39:15]

Alicia Willis: I’d say there’s a lot of courses out there that they can put you on that will improve [01:39:20] your knowledge. Like what?

Payman Langroudi: Um, well, oral health, education, that sort of thing.

Alicia Willis: Yeah. We’ve got we’ve [01:39:25] got that. It’s I think it’s harder to get on that because they do it through like an ABN course. So [01:39:30] it’s a harder course to get on. I’ve just done implant training. Oh yeah. Um, which [01:39:35] I find really interesting. It’s not a qualification like any BDM, but it’s [01:39:40] an extra one to even just help you get in, in practice to do it. Um, there’s [01:39:45] lot lots of different courses with radiography or things like that, but I do find that [01:39:50] you like. I don’t know if it’s easier in a city because we’re on such a small area. [01:39:55] I don’t know if because we don’t need radiography train nurses because the practice isn’t big enough. We [01:40:00] only run with four surgeries, so there’s nowhere for us to do x rays. The [01:40:05] dentist may as well just take it in the room as we do it, so there’s no need for the nurse to. So some [01:40:10] some cases like that, then there’s no there’s no reason to do it. Whereas obviously [01:40:15] you need an implant nurse for an implant whereas you can’t do it. So.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:40:20] have you started doing some implant nursing?

Alicia Willis: Yeah. Yeah, I enjoy it. Different gory [01:40:25] sometimes.

Payman Langroudi: Which of all the different things you nurse for different procedures. What’s your favourite [01:40:30] or your least favourite?

Alicia Willis: Whitening.

Payman Langroudi: Whitening is your favourite. Yeah. Oh, amazing.

Alicia Willis: Because [01:40:35] as soon as they walk in, they’re like unhappy. And they walk out [01:40:40] smiling. And what more can you ask for?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s kind of happy dentistry.

Alicia Willis: Yeah. [01:40:45] Um. It’s just.

Payman Langroudi: You do the scanning.

Alicia Willis: Sometimes. Yeah. Um. We [01:40:50] have nurses who prefer to scan. It’s not my favourite thing to do. Admittedly, [01:40:55] yeah. Um, but, yeah, we just send them down to the nurse that’s doing [01:41:00] it at the time. We’ll go and find someone. And if it’s not me, it’s someone else. Um, but. Yeah, it’s [01:41:05] just I just. We never, ever fail with it. It’s just a good guaranteed [01:41:10] thing that you can deliver.

Payman Langroudi: And what’s your [01:41:15] least favourite?

Alicia Willis: Hmm. Probably a scale and polish.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:41:20] really?

Alicia Willis: Yeah. It’s boring.

Payman Langroudi: Really? Because only suction.

Alicia Willis: Yeah. [01:41:25] There’s not much to chat about. It’s. They’re in and they’re out.

Payman Langroudi: In the end. It must be boring. [01:41:30] Yeah.

Alicia Willis: It is. Well, it is, and it isn’t. It’s remembering everything [01:41:35] because there’s a lot going on. So that always I don’t we don’t do it that often. Um, [01:41:40] so getting everything out and sitting, setting up and takes [01:41:45] time. Um, but no, I, I don’t dislike Ando. [01:41:50]

Payman Langroudi: It’s just like with a nurse. You’ve got to be always one step ahead. Like, what’s he going to want next?

Alicia Willis: Oh, [01:41:55] yeah. I like that game.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the key. Key skill, isn’t it? Yeah. Don’t be to guess that right. [01:42:00]

Alicia Willis: Yeah. And when I work with Claire, she’ll describe something to a patient and like, I [01:42:05] don’t know, a slower handpiece. She’ll describe it like a rattling toothbrush. And I know what she [01:42:10] means, so I’ve already got it out the door. Yeah. So stuff like that, it’s. And it’s also knowing [01:42:15] who you work with and what, like no one else would know that. So it’s little things [01:42:20] like that. That.

Payman Langroudi: So. So where do you want to be in five years? Like what do you think you’re going to be doing [01:42:25] in five years time? Do you think you’re going to be doing the same job, or do you not think in five years time [01:42:30] frames or.

Alicia Willis: I, I try not to because you never know what’s going to happen. I also [01:42:35] don’t think Claire would want me to leave her. Yeah, but I don’t. The [01:42:40] hygienist thing would interest me.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Alicia Willis: Yeah. I don’t know. I [01:42:45] don’t think I’d want to do to do therapy, but then I could change my mind in five years. But I [01:42:50] also it’s the responsibility side of it for me that it’s all on [01:42:55] me. Yeah, that freaks me out slightly, but, I mean, you get over that. [01:43:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, of course it freaks you out. Like, you know, we were just talking and, you know, actually, Claire was saying that very [01:43:05] thing. She was saying that the biggest difference between being a nurse and being a therapist is the stress [01:43:10] of messing up. Yeah. And and the stress of a complaint coming in and so [01:43:15] forth. Yeah. Um, yeah. But every job has its [01:43:20] own nuance, right?

Alicia Willis: It does.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, like, I don’t know, you could be a pilot and you’ve got the stress of [01:43:25] a storm or something. Yeah, it’s still some jobs are still worth doing, even though there is stress. Yeah. [01:43:30] Um, but, you know, I’d encourage you if if you’re thinking that way, I’d [01:43:35] encourage you. You might as well, if you’re going to do hygiene, to do therapy as well, because therapists [01:43:40] are so in demand these days. Um, if you if you said to my to my dentist, [01:43:45] that’s what I want to do, they’d support it and help you somehow.

Alicia Willis: I think maybe [01:43:50] not as an individual, but as a whole. I think it’s something they are looking into anyway [01:43:55] with hygienists. Um, so there are bits and pieces, I think, out [01:44:00] there that are being considered. Um, because I’m just probably [01:44:05] just a nurse. I don’t know how they look at us. But I [01:44:10] do think there are opportunities out there that can be had [01:44:15] by nurses when they’re available. And I do think it would be soon. Like in in-house training [01:44:20] rather than going to university, because that for me wouldn’t be ideal. [01:44:25]

Payman Langroudi: Why?

Alicia Willis: Just because we live in such a remote area? The travel to uni? I’d then [01:44:30] have to either probably stay there a couple of days a week, as well as work to afford life. It’s [01:44:35] it’s hard.

Payman Langroudi: It’s what is it, three years?

Alicia Willis: Yeah, I think so. [01:44:40]

Payman Langroudi: It’s worth it, man. Honestly, I know, I know, you said you just bought a house and all [01:44:45] of that stuff. Yeah, but. And it’s hard, right? It’s hard to get [01:44:50] in. Oh, yeah. Super hard to get in and super hard course. Um, [01:44:55] but three years will fly by.

Alicia Willis: Oh. It would. I’d be busy enough to, [01:45:00] uh.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Alicia Willis: Make it fly by.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Um, I’d consider it. You know, you [01:45:05] obviously like dental practices for whatever reason. Yeah. You know what I mean? You did a few jobs, but then [01:45:10] you found one that you like. Yeah, yeah. Within dental practice, there are many roles. And [01:45:15] you can get to this next level quite easily. You’re not easily. You got to get in and all that. Yeah. I wouldn’t [01:45:20] let the the worry of the responsibility get in the way. Um. Mistake. You’ll handle it.

Alicia Willis: Well. [01:45:25] Yeah, I like to think so.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about errors. We like, talk about errors. [01:45:30] Okay. What mistakes have you made? Have you ever done something [01:45:35] where you, the patients complained about, you know.

Alicia Willis: Touch wood?

Payman Langroudi: I [01:45:40] haven’t or a dentist complained about you. Has that ever happened?

Alicia Willis: No. I’ve [01:45:45] actually been to a lot of places, which I don’t want it to sound big headed, but they’ve all said I’ve had [01:45:50] a nice day and that for me is everything. I’d hate for someone to go, don’t put me in with her again, [01:45:55] because that’s not.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. What was your worst day as a dental nurse?

Alicia Willis: It’s [01:46:00] always being put in a different practice because you don’t know the ropes. Everywhere I work slightly [01:46:05] differently. Every person and dentists work differently. The patients expect to come [01:46:10] in six months later and the same routine six months ago. It should be the same.

Payman Langroudi: Does [01:46:15] it happen occasionally where they say, look, we need you somewhere else?

Alicia Willis: Yeah. Um. And that’s. It’s [01:46:20] not. It’s scary. It is. And I know not many nurses probably [01:46:25] enjoy travelling to a different practice where you don’t know anybody. Um, and just [01:46:30] sitting and having lunch with other people. Obviously, you’ve got to start a conversation and get on with [01:46:35] your day to make it go a bit quicker. So it is nerve wracking. And then working with the with the dentist. You are stuck in [01:46:40] four walls with a stranger. So it can be scary. And they all work differently. They all like using [01:46:45] different instruments and different things. And you can’t guess what that dentist wants because you don’t know them. [01:46:50] So that can be hard.

Payman Langroudi: Have you been in the practice? I’ve certainly have, man. Where [01:46:55] there’s like different power bases.

Alicia Willis: What do you mean, power bases?

Payman Langroudi: Like you’ve got? I don’t [01:47:00] know, let’s, for the sake of the argument, say it’s the manageress. And so [01:47:05] and so receptionist are one power base. And then you’ve got the [01:47:10] head nurse and so and so hygienist or another power base. And they hate each [01:47:15] other. And it’s like, it’s like a, it’s like a constant. Like, which team are you in? I’ve [01:47:20] worked in a place like that. Yeah. No I can’t say I have.

Alicia Willis: Yeah I can imagine it won’t. No [01:47:25] I haven’t it’s our practice.

Payman Langroudi: Is a happy.

Alicia Willis: Practice. Nice. Yeah. And [01:47:30] it’s just everyone kind of gets on.

Payman Langroudi: It does sound.

Alicia Willis: Nice from.

Payman Langroudi: From what Claire says about [01:47:35] it as well. It does sound like a nice place to work.

Alicia Willis: Yeah. It is. I never get out of bed and think, oh, I’ve got [01:47:40] to go to work today. Oh, really? Yeah, I just just go and get on with it. And I do enjoy [01:47:45] being there.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I do this thing, this training for enlighten where we talk about, [01:47:50] you know, we’re going to try and focus on enlightened for a week or whatever. Yeah. And then I asked [01:47:55] this question and I say, what would it take to make you want to look forward to coming to work even [01:48:00] more than usual? And it’s a funny one here because I say [01:48:05] it. Yeah. And you’ve got the principle. You’ve got everyone sitting in the room and everyone goes [01:48:10] completely silent. Yeah. And then you have to sort of tell them the other ideas that other people [01:48:15] have had to make it more fun to come to work that day. Yeah. But interestingly, like, I think it’s one of the most [01:48:20] important questions you can answer, right? Like that’s a key question. Yeah. Yeah. What would make [01:48:25] work funner, more fun than it already is? Yeah. And you could go to something simple [01:48:30] like supply pizza. Yeah. Or different hours. Flexibility. I mean, how [01:48:35] do you get around that thought? Yeah, that, you know, you have to turn up every day. And [01:48:40] some of your friends work from home.

Alicia Willis: Yeah, we was just having that conversation upstairs.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Alicia Willis: Were [01:48:45] you? Yeah. Um, I do have to turn up every day. And it would be lovely to wake up in the morning [01:48:50] and think. I’ll stick the kettle on, and then I’ll pick up the phone and have a few phone calls. Because you work from home. [01:48:55] Yeah, but no, you you have to go in every day. My routine is the same. Um, [01:49:00] we set up in the morning exactly the same time. Yeah. Clean down every day. Exactly the same [01:49:05] time. So, no, you you do have to turn.

Payman Langroudi: What I’m saying is your enthusiasm [01:49:10] for the job, right? Where the job entails turning up every day. Sometimes [01:49:15] a thankless job because you’ve got some full dentist who’s like, you know, in a bad mood. [01:49:20] Yeah. Not in control of your day. Yeah. And yet you love it, right? [01:49:25]

Alicia Willis: So the people make a massive difference. Patients know.

Payman Langroudi: The. [01:49:30]

Alicia Willis: Team, the staff. Massively. If, I suppose if one’s in a bad [01:49:35] mood, it ricochets. But no.

Payman Langroudi: Practice.

Alicia Willis: Yeah. Not [01:49:40] really. You can tell when someone’s got an off day, but you try and lift them and you [01:49:45] put. I don’t know, a Christmas song on and it lifts the team spirit a bit. But no, we’re all [01:49:50] quite jolly and do just get on with it. And if something’s not done, you say you ain’t done [01:49:55] this and then someone else picks up the slack.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not funny what you said about the radio. Yeah, because [01:50:00] I used to. When I was a dentist, I used to play classical music. Not because I’m a massive [01:50:05] fan. I mean, kind of. I became a bit of a fan because I kept playing it so much, but I had [01:50:10] it in my head. That’s expensive music. Oh, okay. Yeah. And so I had it in my head [01:50:15] that I was a young fool, to tell you truth. But I had it in my head that if expensive music is playing, I’m [01:50:20] doing expensive work. Right. It all goes together. Yeah. My nurse was [01:50:25] like, I want the local station on. Yeah. And I said, that’s cheap. That’s a [01:50:30] cheap thing. The local station. Whereas this is classical. This is an expensive thing. Yeah. And I was [01:50:35] saying think of that. Think of the business rather than your your day to day. And eventually she started enjoying [01:50:40] the classical too. But but it’s so interesting here because what is on is [01:50:45] actually a massive thing. Mhm. It is.

Alicia Willis: And it is.

Payman Langroudi: The.

Alicia Willis: It like.

Payman Langroudi: It’s kind of the difference [01:50:50] between happiness and sadness.

Alicia Willis: Yeah. And if I play Christmas songs it annoys people.

Payman Langroudi: That would kill me. [01:50:55] I hate Christmas songs. I’m a bit of a scrooge.

Alicia Willis: Oh, no. See, I [01:51:00] would start playing Christmas songs at the beginning of November after Halloween.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, God.

Alicia Willis: Claire won’t have [01:51:05] that. Yeah, so I’ve only just been allowed to start playing three songs a day.

Payman Langroudi: Well, are you happy to have [01:51:10] Christmas songs all day?

Alicia Willis: Oh, yeah. What heart. Christmas. It’s on in the car all [01:51:15] the time. Yes. So I’m allowed now three a day. Whereas [01:51:20] that turns me into the jolly person. I’ll sing, I’ll dance. [01:51:25]

Payman Langroudi: That’s your.

Alicia Willis: Thing. Yeah. So I.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t.

Alicia Willis: Know. It does lift the.

Payman Langroudi: Spirit once I’ve heard last Christmas. And [01:51:30] do they know it’s Christmas? I think Christmas should be every three years. [01:51:35]

Alicia Willis: No.

Payman Langroudi: Honestly. Honestly, like like the Olympics or something. Every four years because it just comes around so quick. It’s [01:51:40] not special anymore.

Alicia Willis: But it’s a guaranteed thing to look forward to. Special every year.

Payman Langroudi: It’s every year, [01:51:45] you know, it’s two years. Every other year, every other year would be perfect. No, I [01:51:50] don’t like that.

Alicia Willis: And family as well. If people live away, it’s [01:51:55] the one time of year you know, they’re all going to turn up.

Payman Langroudi: That’s true.

Alicia Willis: Because they don’t have a choice. [01:52:00]

Payman Langroudi: Are you born and bred? Skegness?

Alicia Willis: Um, I am, yeah. I’ve got family in [01:52:05] other parts of the UK, but not far away.

Payman Langroudi: Never lived anywhere else?

Alicia Willis: No.

Payman Langroudi: Do you never have [01:52:10] that feeling of. Hey, great wide world? No. Why?

Alicia Willis: It scares the life [01:52:15] out of me.

Payman Langroudi: Why?

Alicia Willis: Because I’m such a homeless.

Payman Langroudi: You know your town so well.

Alicia Willis: Yeah, and [01:52:20] I’m such a home orientated person. Like my mum and dad. I would always [01:52:25] close family. Yeah. If I can. Any chance I get, I’ll go around there. Like, even though I’ve moved [01:52:30] out. And if I don’t know if I was up and moved to Australia, I wouldn’t even know what to [01:52:35] do with myself. I think I’d just sit on FaceTime to them all the time.

Payman Langroudi: So like [01:52:40] going on holiday, right?

Alicia Willis: Yeah, but I know I’m coming back.

Payman Langroudi: Your home is your home.

Alicia Willis: Yeah. [01:52:45] And I feel safe. Yeah, I don’t know. I’ve always been the same. I don’t like going out [01:52:50] of my comfort zone.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. Why not? So you’re happy?

Alicia Willis: I don’t know, this is out of my comfort zone. [01:52:55] But, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s end it with the usual way. [01:53:00] Fantasy dinner party. Three guests, [01:53:05] dead or alive. Who would you have alive. [01:53:10]

Alicia Willis: Harry styles?

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah?

Alicia Willis: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like him.

Alicia Willis: I [01:53:15] just think he would bring the.

Payman Langroudi: Joy to.

Alicia Willis: The joy. Yeah. Um. Do [01:53:20] they.

Payman Langroudi: All have a mix of.

Alicia Willis: Dead or alive.

Payman Langroudi: Or dead or alive? I [01:53:25] mean, it could be, I don’t know. Jesus Christ. For all you know.

Alicia Willis: Whoever you are, I’d say Michael Jackson. Oh, [01:53:30] yeah. I have a lot of questions. And I also, I also don’t know if he’s dead or alive because [01:53:35] there’s conspiracies. Uh, but this is a very young person approach, I suppose. [01:53:40] Um, and I probably take a friend because they’d want to witness it. [01:53:45]

Payman Langroudi: Who? A friend like a friend. A best.

Alicia Willis: Friend? Just a friend.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I like that. [01:53:50]

Alicia Willis: Probably take them because they’d want to also experience that.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Alicia Willis: That’s sweet. And [01:53:55] I wouldn’t want, probably want to go alone.

Payman Langroudi: Like, you can have Albert Einstein. Whatever. You’re taking a friend.

Alicia Willis: Yeah. Because I think [01:54:00] they’d appreciate that.

Payman Langroudi: Perfect, perfect, perfect. Do you like being on your own?

Alicia Willis: No.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:54:05] got that feeling. Have you ever. Do you ever go to, like, a restaurant by yourself? Nope. Why?

Alicia Willis: Because [01:54:10] I. I hate the thought of people going. Oh, my day didn’t turn up.

[TRANSITION]: That’s so [01:54:15] interesting.

Payman Langroudi: We were talking about this on another pod. Yeah. Like, why does it. Why is that?

Alicia Willis: I [01:54:20] don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Know. No, but why is that the fear? Like, okay, you’re in this restaurant by yourself. If I saw [01:54:25] you, that is not what I would think. I think she’s someone working in this town. Yeah, like [01:54:30] it wouldn’t even cross my mind that your date stood you up.

Alicia Willis: Must be a younger person like thing. [01:54:35] I genuinely like my friends at work. Are probably 30 plus. Yeah, [01:54:40] whereas I’m 24. Yeah. And they would go and sit by themselves. Yeah. I’m hoping [01:54:45] I’ll just grow out of it because I’d like to. I’d like to say to myself, like, oh, I’m going to go [01:54:50] to Manchester for the night and go and eat in my favourite restaurant because I can.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Alicia Willis: But [01:54:55] I don’t and I wouldn’t.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. But would you sit on a river [01:55:00] side by yourself.

Alicia Willis: In my town? Yeah, but I wouldn’t drive [01:55:05] somewhere to sit there.

Payman Langroudi: In case someone thought. Is that.

Alicia Willis: Why is she [01:55:10] sat on her own?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Alicia Willis: I don’t know why.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, okay. Okay. Tell me by yourself. At [01:55:15] home? By yourself? Are you good like that? No, no.

Alicia Willis: Only just started to be. But [01:55:20] I don’t know why.

[TRANSITION]: I love being by myself.

Alicia Willis: Yeah, and a lot of people say that. Yeah, [01:55:25] I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. I didn’t think the conversation would go there either, but, um, [01:55:30] it’s been a massive pleasure.

Alicia Willis: Thank you.

[TRANSITION]: For having.

Payman Langroudi: Me. Thanks a lot for being the first nurse on the Dental Leaders [01:55:35] podcast.

Alicia Willis: I’ve enjoyed.

[TRANSITION]: It. Good to see you. Thank you.

[VOICE]: This is Dental [01:55:40] Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [01:55:45] leaders in dentistry. Your hosts [01:55:50] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:55:55] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge [01:56:00] thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and [01:56:05] what our guests has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value [01:56:10] out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend [01:56:15] who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t [01:56:20] forget our six star rating.