Payman Langroudi: This podcast has been brought to you by Mini Smile Makeover. Mini Smile Makeover is a two day anterior [00:00:05] composite course led by the extraordinary talented doctor Dipesh Palmer. Two [00:00:10] days of full on, hands on composite training, purely focussed on [00:00:15] anterior work composite veneers, polishing, finishing, shade matching. You also [00:00:20] get a free enlightened kit. Plus we have a great time and a party in the middle. Find out the. [00:00:25] Details. [00:00:30]

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders. [00:00:35] The podcast where you get to go one on one [00:00:40] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:50] gives me great pleasure to welcome Sarena Kiani on to the podcast. [00:00:55] Sarina is a young dentist who’s moving quickly through some of the most [00:01:00] high profile practices in the UK. A pleasure to have you.

Sarina Kiani: Hi. [00:01:05] Thank you so much for having me here. Such an honour. It is.

Payman Langroudi: So, [00:01:10] Serena, I know you through mehdi’s practice and [00:01:15] latterly through rhona’s practice. And for a lot of people, [00:01:20] these would be dream jobs. Yeah, but these were your first few jobs.

Sarina Kiani: I know.

Payman Langroudi: And sort [00:01:25] of. My burning question is, how did you get these jobs? I mean.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, [00:01:30] fair. I get asked that question a lot, actually. Oh, you’re so lucky. Like, what [00:01:35] did you do?

Payman Langroudi: Uh, how did you meet them?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, yeah. Um, I am lucky, [00:01:40] and I feel really incredibly grateful. Um, I I’m [00:01:45] not even one of those people you see a lot at Dental events. I think that a lot [00:01:50] of the jobs that I have now and the people that I’ve met were just organic. [00:01:55] So, Mehdi, I met when I was a Dental rep for GSK. I [00:02:00] was my job was literally to knock on every single door in London a dental practice [00:02:05] and sell them basically Sensodyne and Corsodyl toothpastes. [00:02:10] And I met Mehdi, obviously instantly felt like he was the best dentist I’d [00:02:15] ever met because he’s so charming. And then I actually ended up becoming one of his patients, [00:02:20] doing my teeth with him, all this stuff. And then he [00:02:25] wrote my reference for dental school. So I didn’t even want to be a dentist until quite [00:02:30] later on in life while I was a rep for GSK, because I thought, oh, I quite like [00:02:35] what they do, like this intimate 1 to 1 that they have with their patients and the challenges [00:02:40] that they face, all these things. So Mehdi came about through working for GSK [00:02:45] and then.

Payman Langroudi: Dental is.

Sarina Kiani: Called yeah, Refreshed Dental. And then I [00:02:50] just stayed in touch with him and and it kind of just grew from there. And I would [00:02:55] joke about, you know, when I graduate, you’re gonna hire me. All these things. I’d drop a little, [00:03:00] um, you know, a little on purpose. Yeah. On purpose. A little [00:03:05] a little seed for him not to forget about me. All through dental school as well. Um, [00:03:10] kept in touch, but genuinely, it was because I actually, um, wanted to [00:03:15] stay in touch. And then rhona’s practice. So Chelsea Dental Clinic, um, [00:03:20] came about during Covid. Dental school I was going to was Kings and [00:03:25] we closed for something like six months. I wasn’t able to go into dental school [00:03:30] and do anything. Everything was online and I hated it. I’m [00:03:35] not the type of person who can just sit there on the screen for hours on end and learn that way. [00:03:40] I need to physically be doing stuff. I need to physically see things. So then, um, at the [00:03:45] time, I had a friend. Well, I had a friend. I have a friend, Luke Athwal, who works at Rhona’s [00:03:50] clinic. And I messaged him saying, look, I am. I’m dying here. Can I get a job [00:03:55] as a nurse? As a dental nurse? Um, anywhere, you know. Just so I can [00:04:00] do something during Covid. And he recommended Rhona’s clinic. So during [00:04:05] Covid, I was a dental nurse at Chelsea Dental Clinic, and I was [00:04:10] working with everyone there. Our Richard, Rona, Luke [00:04:15] and Sarah. And so I met all these people. I met the team during Covid, [00:04:20] just working as a dental nurse. I was one of the worst dental nurses you can think of because I was just [00:04:25] looking at the work. I’m not paying attention to any of the suction and like writing secret [00:04:30] notes for things I wanted to learn. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And which year of dental school was that? [00:04:35]

Sarina Kiani: That was 2020. So during literally the height of Covid.

Payman Langroudi: You were. [00:04:40]

Sarina Kiani: What, a.

Payman Langroudi: Third year student.

Sarina Kiani: Fourth year? Fourth year? Yeah. Fourth year at the time. Um, [00:04:45] third year. Fourth year. Yeah. Fourth year at the time, I think. And yeah. [00:04:50] So I met everyone then. And to be honest, I didn’t think like I’m working as a dental nurse. [00:04:55] And then one day I’m going to have a job at Chelsea Dental Clinic. I didn’t think that way. I just always [00:05:00] had this, like imposter syndrome of who the hell do you think you are? Which I think most people have. [00:05:05] And I think a lot of females in dentistry have as well, that kind of mindset. And [00:05:10] then fast forward now.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah. How did you end [00:05:15] up working there after two years?

Sarina Kiani: After? Um, no. Even a year after [00:05:20] my PhD year, Rona gave me a ring and she, like, [00:05:25] out of the blue, called me.

Payman Langroudi: She called.

Sarina Kiani: You? Yeah, she called me. And she was like, do you still [00:05:30] want that job here? And I thought, what? No way. Are you crazy? Are you calling [00:05:35] me? I just graduated. What do you mean? Um, obviously on the phone that was going through my head, but [00:05:40] on the phone, I was like, yeah. Hell yeah. Please. Yes. I just said yes. Even though inside [00:05:45] I was thinking, who do you think you are? There are incredible Dentists that work [00:05:50] there, like Mittal, who I had literally put on a pedestal. Everyone’s work is [00:05:55] insane. Like, who do you think you are working there? And I thought, you know what? I’m [00:06:00] never going to learn. I’m never going to improve until I just throw myself into the deep end [00:06:05] and just start. I’m never going to feel ready. So what’s the point of, [00:06:10] you know, saying no and then regretting it and things like that? So I [00:06:15] said, yeah, and then here I am now.

Payman Langroudi: And she’s incredibly good at picking up [00:06:20] on people’s sort of personalities. Yeah. I guess you saw something in you.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. [00:06:25] She said, I think communication maybe. I think I’m a people’s [00:06:30] person and I’m quite chatty. I make people feel comfortable. And I think [00:06:35] that obviously the work is important in dentistry. You need to be good at what you’re doing, especially [00:06:40] if you’re going to be charging people a lot of money. And that side of things I’m always keen [00:06:45] on and I’m very humble about. Keen on improving all those kind of things. But I think [00:06:50] the people management side of things, um, plays a big factor [00:06:55] as well. And I think that’s what I know I’m good at. And I think that [00:07:00] what is what maybe she saw in me what Mehdi saw in me as well, because I think the dentistry [00:07:05] you can learn, but the people skills I think is a little bit harder to teach.

Payman Langroudi: It’s more an [00:07:10] innate thing. It is a more innate thing. Um, but you said, look, you said you had no intention of becoming a dentist, so [00:07:15] you were a rep.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, I know.

Payman Langroudi: What were you thinking when. I mean, when when [00:07:20] you studied, what were you thinking? You want to be.

Sarina Kiani: I wanted to be. I wanted to go into medicine. [00:07:25] Let’s be.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Sarina Kiani: Originally I did, and if you Google me, [00:07:30] there’s a picture of me in the Fulham local news with my holding [00:07:35] my GCSE papers up with all the ace stars that I got. And then underneath it says, you know, [00:07:40] Serena Kayani wants to be a doctor, wants to study medicine. And, [00:07:45] um, when I was in sixth form, I. Well, after that picture, I got a scholarship [00:07:50] to a private school, uh, Latymer Upper School. And I [00:07:55] was doing my A-levels. I thought I wanted to do medicine.

Payman Langroudi: Tough school. [00:08:00]

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, very tough school. Hard time. And I would volunteer at [00:08:05] Chelsea and Westminster Hospital. Ended up in the stroke ward, which isn’t really the best ward to [00:08:10] be in if you’re trying to do medicine, because it was tough. And I was [00:08:15] quite an emotional person. I would go back home after each shift and I’d cry, and it would take [00:08:20] quite a toll on me. And I thought, I don’t know if medicine is for me. Just from a mental [00:08:25] health point of view. I thought that I can’t detach from patients, so I kind of left [00:08:30] it there. Yeah. Um, I did biomedical science. Um, I did [00:08:35] a masters in biotechnology. I thought I’d go down more of the pharmaceutical route, and I applied for [00:08:40] a job at GSK. At the time, the only thing that I could get was being a Dental [00:08:45] rep. And I thought, you know what? I’m just gonna work my way up into more of the pharmaceutical [00:08:50] side of things. And then while I was a rep for GSK, you know, knocking on doors, selling [00:08:55] Sensodyne, I met a lot of dentists and I thought, hang on a minute. This is like [00:09:00] medicine where you’re challenging yourself a lot and you have to use your brain. You have to be on it, but [00:09:05] it doesn’t have that emotional effect on you where, you [00:09:10] know, patients aren’t dying. Touch wood and you can go home and kind of [00:09:15] leave it there. You have more of a 9 to 5. You can have a family. This [00:09:20] might be something that might suit me. And I thought, oh, God, yeah. So I applied [00:09:25] to King’s, got rejected on Ucas, applied [00:09:30] a few more times, got rejected again.

Payman Langroudi: As in waited a year.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, [00:09:35] so I applied, got rejected and then I waited a year. Reapplied [00:09:40] got rejected again, did all the things on the website that it said you need to do. And at the time, [00:09:45] it wasn’t like I was just applying blindly and just hoping for the [00:09:50] best. I was messaging the admissions board. I was asking them literally tons of questions [00:09:55] what do I need to do? What do I need to show? What should I write on my admissions form? No [00:10:00] one in my family has even graduated from university. No one’s a dentist. [00:10:05] My brother owns an incredible tattoo shop like which.

Payman Langroudi: I wanted to talk about.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. [00:10:10]

Payman Langroudi: Because I drive past that shop every day. She’s beautiful.

Sarina Kiani: It’s amazing. He inspires me [00:10:15] every day. And, um, so, you know, I didn’t really have anyone [00:10:20] apart from the friends that I’d made, kind of, you know, midway through [00:10:25] GSK working there and. And Luke and Rona and all these people [00:10:30] that, you know, I would be inspired by, but I didn’t really have anyone in my family or my circle that I can [00:10:35] ask about, you know, even can you help me with this application form? So after [00:10:40] getting rejected, um, the last time I thought, you know what? I’m just going to set up [00:10:45] a meeting. I emailed the head of admissions at King’s at the time, and I [00:10:50] said, could I please steal five minutes of your time to speak to you in person and [00:10:55] see, you know, what can I do to improve my application? And he was kind enough to say yes. [00:11:00] So when I went there, I went armed with, you know, what do they want on [00:11:05] their website? Exactly what they want. And what can I show that I have to at [00:11:10] least warrant an interview? And he said to me, look, just because you’ve come here today, just because you tick all those [00:11:15] boxes, doesn’t mean that you guarantee yourself an interview. I said, I completely understand, but please just [00:11:20] have a look at my application and see if you think I should have an interview. If [00:11:25] I have an interview and I fail, I will never message you again. I will never contact [00:11:30] you and waste your time ever again. That’s how sure I was that I wanted this and I knew [00:11:35] I should be accepted.

Payman Langroudi: How did you know to do that? Did you just come [00:11:40] up with it yourself?

Sarina Kiani: No, I.

Payman Langroudi: Someone told you to do that?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, someone [00:11:45] did tell me to do that. And also kind of watching the people around me. Even my [00:11:50] brother, for example, who doesn’t take no for an answer. And watching people [00:11:55] not fail necessarily, because I think failure is only when you give up on something. But [00:12:00] having setbacks and having challenges that you, you know, you don’t succeed at [00:12:05] and just keep keep people that keep going. Yeah, I had a lot of those people around me, [00:12:10] not necessarily in dentistry or anything medical related, and I thought I [00:12:15] just needed to be a bit more confident. And I was older at the time, so I think that helped. And [00:12:20] a week later, I got an email saying, here’s your [00:12:25] interview you’re going to have. I think it was like 12 mini stations, 12 different people. [00:12:30] It was rigorous. It was the graduate entry. So if you think about the cohort in [00:12:35] the year, it was narrowed down even more. I think there was only 16 people that [00:12:40] were being accepted for the graduate entry. And so it was even tougher to get in. [00:12:45] And I smashed the interviews. Luckily, obviously I got in and [00:12:50] that was that. And then I thought, yeah, smooth sailing. First year of [00:12:55] dental school.

Payman Langroudi: I want to kind of go back to that notion, because a lot [00:13:00] of people would get that rejection and just accept it. Um, some [00:13:05] people are more sort of go getters or something. They sort of push harder. [00:13:10] Um, and but at the bottom of all of this is kind of resilience, [00:13:15] right? And resilience might be the most important skill [00:13:20] or, you know, quality that you can have in work and life. [00:13:25] Yeah. Because eventually things tend to come around to you call [00:13:30] it by luck or coincidence or whatever, but it takes resilience for you to still [00:13:35] be around when that happens.

Sarina Kiani: Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: So this sort of self-reliance [00:13:40] or the, you know, pushing a bit harder, not taking no for an answer. Where does [00:13:45] that all come from? Were you always that cat? Is that what you were like as a child?

Sarina Kiani: I think it [00:13:50] comes from my mum.

Payman Langroudi: What about your mum?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. We moved. She honestly [00:13:55] is my biggest inspiration. We moved to England from Iran when I was about three, [00:14:00] and she raised me and my brother as a single mum. There was a time when we were literally [00:14:05] homeless.

Payman Langroudi: From the get go.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So your dad was in Iran?

Sarina Kiani: No.

Payman Langroudi: He [00:14:10] came.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, he was here. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But they [00:14:15] broke down early.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. Broke down. She had to survive on her own. She hadn’t [00:14:20] finished school, and she could barely speak English. She had five jobs trying [00:14:25] to raise me and my brother, and she got us. Yeah, she would cleaning [00:14:30] post office, Anything you can think of.

Payman Langroudi: Jobs just to pay the way.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. She came [00:14:35] from being in Iran and being limousine driven to to [00:14:40] school because her her dad was a big army general in Iran. For the [00:14:45] king to then coming here and having nothing, not speaking a [00:14:50] word of English and then having to, you know, do all kinds of jobs to be able to [00:14:55] look after me and my brother. Like, I remember she would have her job, we’d wake [00:15:00] up, give us breakfast, take us to school, go to her second job, and then we would get [00:15:05] picked up, usually by other parents. Yeah. Go to their house for a few hours. So she [00:15:10] finished working. Then she’d pick us up, take us for dinner, go back to another job.

Payman Langroudi: Wow. [00:15:15]

Sarina Kiani: And I think without I don’t speak about it too much because it’s [00:15:20] a lot. But I think that’s where resilience comes [00:15:25] from. Because knowing that, you know what, you just got to push through and you’re not in [00:15:30] the nicest way possible. You’re not special. These things happen to a lot of people, and [00:15:35] it’s unfortunate, but what do you want to do? Do you want to just sit there and and feel sorry for yourself? [00:15:40] Or do you want to actually say, you know what? Yeah, sure. Those things did happen, but they were 20, [00:15:45] 25 years ago. I actually want to make a difference now in my life. I’m not going to sit [00:15:50] there being like, yeah, I had this bad experience and that’s why I’m a little bit sad [00:15:55] or I’m depressed or all these things and I’m not, you know, depression and things like that is, is different and can happen to anyone. [00:16:00] But I think resilience is just loving yourself [00:16:05] and knowing that I deserve to get everything I want in life [00:16:10] and be happy, feel at peace, feel accomplished. [00:16:15] I think happiness comes from knowing that you’ve put yourself [00:16:20] through a challenge and you achieved it. It’s not about comparing yourself to other people, which happens [00:16:25] a lot in dentistry. You know, you go online and you.

Payman Langroudi: Happens a lot in life, right?

Sarina Kiani: It happens a lot in [00:16:30] life. You go online and you’re comparing yourself constantly. Oh, maybe I should be doing this. I should be here. I should [00:16:35] be doing that. And I think comparison, like everyone says, comparison is the thief of joy. Yeah. And [00:16:40] being able to just focusing on yourself, what are you doing every day [00:16:45] that makes you feel proud? Like something small. If I put my alarm for 6 a.m. to go downstairs [00:16:50] and go to the gym or go on the treadmill, whatever it is, if I then turn off that alarm and then [00:16:55] didn’t wake, I don’t wake up that day. I know in myself I feel really disappointed in myself. [00:17:00] I’m not doing it for anyone else. I’m doing it to show myself some respect. [00:17:05] And I think that’s what makes you feel more powerful [00:17:10] as a person.

Payman Langroudi: Although, look, both of those things sound great, [00:17:15] don’t they? Resilience sounds amazing. Yeah, the self-respect thing that you’re saying sounds amazing. Yeah, but [00:17:20] have you ever suffered the downside of that behaviour too? Like are there situations that you [00:17:25] should have gotten out of, I don’t know, some boyfriend that wasn’t suitable. [00:17:30] Wasn’t good. But you stuck at it because that’s the kind of person you are. You stick at things to the [00:17:35] bitter end or you know what you’re saying about the alarm. I get it, of course, but [00:17:40] you know, there is some sort of be kind to yourself piece that you might be missing. [00:17:45] Like maybe you’re too hard on yourself in some areas. Does any of that resonate?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. If I had a [00:17:50] penny for every time someone said to me, you’re too hard on yourself, I think I’m [00:17:55] still working on it is the honest answer. I don’t think I stick at things if I’m unhappy. [00:18:00] I value my mental health and my peace a lot. [00:18:05] But definitely the first year after I was [00:18:10] so harsh on myself, I would have sleepless nights thinking about some crown. I did [00:18:15] some sensitivity, some patient got as if like that was the be all and end all [00:18:20] of life. And I really I stopped seeing any friends. I would go home, I’d be researching [00:18:25] things. I’d be trying to. I was just thinking about work all the time [00:18:30] because I thought my like you said, my it was almost like [00:18:35] my self love or my self respect was tied to how good my work was [00:18:40] or how much my patient, you know, congratulated me for something.

Payman Langroudi: Or [00:18:45] I watched my brother, my my brother was always top of his class, got straight A’s at everything. [00:18:50] And then he got to he got he’s a doctor. He got he got to a certain point where he started [00:18:55] failing exams and because he’d never failed exams in his [00:19:00] life before. Yeah. All his, as you say, sort of self respect. His identity was [00:19:05] bound up in being this super brain. And so when he started failing exams [00:19:10] he literally had a breakdown over it, you know, like something. And I had never seen him, [00:19:15] you know, weak in that way. Um, when I think about it with my own kid as well, you know, he’s [00:19:20] good at studying. He’s passed everything he’s ever done. One day, like [00:19:25] all of us, he’ll come up against, you know? You know, when you got to Kings, everyone [00:19:30] was really good at studying. Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: I, I can’t resonate with that more. [00:19:35] I when I had the scholarship to Latimer. Latimer [00:19:40] because I was, I was studying all the time during my GCSEs. [00:19:45] I really enjoyed it. But you’re right, I was equating my value to how [00:19:50] good my grades were. And coming from like a turbulent background at home, there’s [00:19:55] a lot of unrest.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the order that you found in that turbulence.

Sarina Kiani: Exactly. I thought that, [00:20:00] you know what? This is the only thing I can control. Yeah. And so I’m just going to make sure my [00:20:05] grades are amazing because I can’t really control much else that’s going on at home. And this is the only [00:20:10] thing I can control. And so when I got into Latimer, the level of intelligence [00:20:15] there and how.

Payman Langroudi: There are really motivated.

Sarina Kiani: From a young age, they have these incredible [00:20:20] role models. You know, my mom is a role model for me too, and she had a hard time. But I [00:20:25] mean, education wise, these these parents that were teaching them so much, these, [00:20:30] you know, private education, all of these things. I’d never had any of that. And so teachers, I failed [00:20:35] my A-levels really badly.

Payman Langroudi: And and it was the first time you’d really failed. [00:20:40]

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. And my entire identity shattered. It’s so true. I forgot about it. I [00:20:45] almost suppressed this memory. But you’re very right.

Payman Langroudi: How did you feel? Shame and sort [00:20:50] of shame.

Sarina Kiani: Depressed. I had this, I went into this bubble [00:20:55] of like, I wasn’t good enough just because my grades were failing. And so I was failing as a person. [00:21:00] And I kind of had this thing in my, in my brain that I’d now failed my family like I was [00:21:05] supposed to save everyone.

Payman Langroudi: Squandered the opportunity you’d been given.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, exactly. And I was so grateful [00:21:10] for this. Uh, I was so grateful for the scholarship, [00:21:15] and I felt like I’d failed. I’d I’ve disappointed everyone. They took this big [00:21:20] chance on me and I just ruined it. That’s how I felt. And it was sad.

Payman Langroudi: Out of that.

Sarina Kiani: I [00:21:25] did biomedical science where no one had this pressure. Everyone was relaxed. [00:21:30]

Payman Langroudi: So you didn’t retake your A-levels?

Sarina Kiani: No. I wanted to get out of it. I was stuck [00:21:35] in that bubble, and I thought, you know what? I need to get out. I need to shift my headspace. [00:21:40] I ended up taking, um, biomedical science just because I didn’t know what else [00:21:45] to do. On, on. What do you call it when they they add you to the list? Clearing. That’s it. I went [00:21:50] on to clearing as this kind of save me moment of I just need to get away. [00:21:55] I need to get away from this pressure I’m feeling. And it was the best thing I could have done because [00:22:00] I spent three years not really studying. I’d say I was enjoying [00:22:05] life. It felt like the.

Payman Langroudi: Pressure.

Sarina Kiani: The pressure was off Greenwich and my campus was in Kent [00:22:10] and I was enjoying life. I was a lot more relaxed. There was no more pressure [00:22:15] and I could just decide on what I wanted to do with my future without [00:22:20] feeling this kind of, you know, burden of my grades really equate to my value. [00:22:25] So I think that’s where it kind of calmed down.

Payman Langroudi: When did you become a cool cat? [00:22:30]

Sarina Kiani: Cool cat? Yeah, kind of a cool vibe.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, a bit cool. You are kind of cool. [00:22:35]

Sarina Kiani: Oh.

Payman Langroudi: You’re always cool. No. Was that a recent reinvention?

Sarina Kiani: Do you [00:22:40] know what? My school teacher. So in primary school, I [00:22:45] will never forget one parents evening. I had my teacher at [00:22:50] school told my mum. Serena’s very quietly confident and [00:22:55] growing up now, I’d say, like, 30 years later, I only just realised what she meant. [00:23:00] I’m not the loudest person in the room. I just can’t be. But I feel [00:23:05] at peace with myself inside. I don’t feel nervous around people, [00:23:10] but I’m not very loud about it. And I think cool cat.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [00:23:15] cool. I’ve translated that as cool cat.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. I’ve translated. Yeah. Thank you so much. I take that [00:23:20] as a big compliment. I think that I don’t know, I don’t know what the answer to that [00:23:25] is. Just peace in myself and maybe not so much. [00:23:30] Putting anybody on a pedestal I think helps too. I think [00:23:35] I’m always inspired by people, even at work. I’m [00:23:40] in admiration of everybody, but I never put anyone on a pedestal in the sense that I don’t [00:23:45] think they’re better than anybody else, or even with myself and anybody. [00:23:50] I’m working with my assistant. I don’t know someone that’s cleaning [00:23:55] the practice after working hours. I don’t feel like there’s a hierarchy anywhere. I [00:24:00] think that helps as well. I just see everyone as a human being. Respect them for where they [00:24:05] are and what they’ve achieved, but never feel like I can’t speak to them [00:24:10] because of it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a superpower. It’s a It’s a superpower because a lot of people sort [00:24:15] of turn things into hierarchies.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, and it.

Payman Langroudi: Becomes.

Sarina Kiani: Awkward.

Payman Langroudi: They can’t help themselves. [00:24:20] Yeah. They cannot help the idea that where am I in the pecking order? [00:24:25] And hence, where is this person in the pecking order and where is that person in the pecking order? And [00:24:30] I don’t know, I always, I always think of it like this, you know, like talking to the Nigerian guy in the toilet in [00:24:35] a nightclub. I just find myself saying, what, 45 minute conversation with that cat? Yeah, [00:24:40] yeah. And then I remember a friend of mine saying, why are you talking to that guy? You know, all right, I shouldn’t have been in the toilet. I should [00:24:45] have been out there. But he was a great guy, you know? He was. But it comes [00:24:50] naturally to some people. Yeah, and hierarchy comes naturally [00:24:55] to other people.

Sarina Kiani: Definitely. You know, and it works for them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarina Kiani: It doesn’t work for me. It makes me [00:25:00] nervous. I think as long as I see everyone as a human being and trying, I’m very good. I think [00:25:05] 1 to 1 with people. I think where that doesn’t work so well is in a big crowd, because you [00:25:10] start to feel a feel a little bit more, you know you’re trying to connect with everyone 1 to 1, but it’s harder in a crowd. I think [00:25:15] that’s where extroverts do better. Um, but I think as long as you have [00:25:20] like a human connection with someone and see them as a human, because even you know your professor, he’s [00:25:25] still a human being and go home. He might have a wife and kids, and he has very human challenges [00:25:30] he faces. And if you want to connect with someone, you might want to connect on those levels [00:25:35] instead of, okay, yeah, this this person is invented, the caries detection die, [00:25:40] you know?

Payman Langroudi: And anyway, anyway, for instance, uh, Avi Banerjee. [00:25:45] Huh?

Sarina Kiani: Oh, yes.

Payman Langroudi: Who taught you?

Sarina Kiani: I’m one of my. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was in his class.

Payman Langroudi: I was talking [00:25:50] to some of his students, and they were going, oh, Professor Banerjee is so strict and all of this. And [00:25:55] I know him as almost the softest person I’ve ever come across.

Sarina Kiani: The nicest person ever.

Payman Langroudi: Soft. [00:26:00] I mean, strict would not be the word I would I would associate with him. And so it’s so interesting because if you’re [00:26:05] in that hierarchical thinking, you go, Professor Banerjee, he wrote Picard’s manual [00:26:10] like, you know, he’s he’s this unapproachable. And yet I [00:26:15] don’t know him as that. I just know him as Avi. Avi, to me, is the softest people I’ve [00:26:20] ever come across. So sometimes those people are projecting something themselves, aren’t they? Is that they have to, I guess, in [00:26:25] that position.

Sarina Kiani: Definitely. It’s funny you should say that. I was in his class and granted, I was [00:26:30] the graduate entry. I have to say, when I was younger, maybe I wouldn’t really be this confident. [00:26:35] But in his class I felt like I could go up to him, ask him questions. [00:26:40] I felt like, yeah, he’s really approachable and he was always really nice. And no matter how stupid [00:26:45] my questions were, because I think he realised it would come from like a genuine place, whereas there’d [00:26:50] be some people that just say things for the sake of saying things or they’re trying to show off. And I think that if you’re not [00:26:55] being very authentic, you can smell. When someone’s not being authentic, then you feel [00:27:00] like you want to be mean to them in a way because you’re like, oh, just be real. Just be you. What’s wrong with you? [00:27:05] You know?

Payman Langroudi: So then entering in as a graduate. Yeah. [00:27:10] Is different to coming out of school. Definitely. And did you live [00:27:15] at home or did you live?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, I moved back in with my mum, which was amazing. [00:27:20]

Payman Langroudi: So it’s a very different university experience to your first 100% 100%. How [00:27:25] did you find it? How did you feel like you got on? I mean, anyone who says Dental school was, they found easy. [00:27:30] I just don’t believe them at all. No, dental school is hard.

Sarina Kiani: It was really hard.

Payman Langroudi: But what [00:27:35] aspects of it did you find hard? Because I found pretty much everything. Looking down on [00:27:40] microscope, I found a nightmare. The. The first exercise is just like, you know, drilling. [00:27:45] I found a nightmare. The exams I found, the volume of work. I didn’t [00:27:50] do biology A-level either. Yeah. How did you. How did you handle the actual course [00:27:55] content itself?

Sarina Kiani: The course content was hard. The first year I’d forgotten how to study because I was working [00:28:00] and I completely forgotten. So the first year it was really hard. [00:28:05] I remember after my first exam at the end of the year, I cried during these animals. I’m going to fail, I didn’t [00:28:10] fail, thank God. I don’t know how I passed, but I it was really difficult. The content [00:28:15] itself was harder than I thought, but I think at that stage I was locked in. I was like, you know what? This [00:28:20] is the degree that I actually chose to do. This is the career that I want to have. And so [00:28:25] the material was more because I want to learn this, because I want to do it tomorrow instead [00:28:30] of I need to just learn this stuff to pass. You know.

Payman Langroudi: When it got to the clinical bit.

Sarina Kiani: Then it was. [00:28:35]

Payman Langroudi: Easier and you were better.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: Was always.

Sarina Kiani: 100%. Or just like physical [00:28:40] manual skills. I was a lot better in clinic than I was kind of in the [00:28:45] books. And but of course it’s important to know what the material. The hardest [00:28:50] part actually in dental school wasn’t any of that. Do you know what the hardest part of being in dental school was? [00:28:55] Being shouted at by staff and feeling about this small. Now I love [00:29:00] kings. Nothing against kings. But there were certain members of staff that, for absolutely [00:29:05] no reason, would always want to kind of instigate their authority [00:29:10] onto you. And being older than maybe some of the younger students who. Yeah, [00:29:15] they were being naughty.

Payman Langroudi: They were greeted with, you did it.

Sarina Kiani: That grated me because I thought, why are you speaking to me? I’d be like, [00:29:20] Sharon, why are you speaking to me like this? Because I think of myself. If we were outside at the pub together, [00:29:25] you, you know, we’d be having a really respectful conversation. Why are you shouting at [00:29:30] me? Because I’ve. You know, I’ve walked the wrong way around the clinic. Like, this is ridiculous.

Payman Langroudi: I did a house [00:29:35] job, and I distinctly remember six months earlier I was a student. Yeah. Six months later, [00:29:40] I was a houseman. And suddenly you’re in sort of in-between phase between student and [00:29:45] the actual teachers. Right. Yeah. And I remember talking to one of the teachers and saying he was such a lovely guy. I was [00:29:50] saying, you’re so lovely. Now. How come you weren’t lovely back, you know, then. And he [00:29:55] said something. I mean, I was 25 years ago, but he said something around. It’s justified. [00:30:00] There’s almost an abusive culture in Dental school justified by the idea [00:30:05] that it’s a high pressure job. So if you can’t take that degree of abuse from me, you’re [00:30:10] not good as a dentist, which I definitely don’t agree with.

Sarina Kiani: No, I don’t agree.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [00:30:15] where it comes from. The culture’s almost that we’re going to abuse you a little bit because you’re going to get you’re going to [00:30:20] get abuse from your patients.

Sarina Kiani: Exactly what they said. They said, if you can’t handle this, what are you going to be like as a dentist? [00:30:25] And I would say, well, actually, you know, I don’t agree with that. Thank you very much. I wouldn’t [00:30:30] be shouting at my patients. And I do understand, you know, respect [00:30:35] where respect is due, I always there’s no hierarchy. However, your professor is your [00:30:40] professor. I don’t disagree with any of that. And you should listen to the rules. I wasn’t saying, [00:30:45] you know, you shouldn’t listen to the rules, but I just didn’t understand the need for that. Kind of, like, aggressive [00:30:50] talking down at someone, belittling someone kind of behaviour. It didn’t happen [00:30:55] that often. Let’s be real. But when it did happen, it hurt. It hurt a little bit. Yeah, [00:31:00] because I can be sensitive as well, I think. And I think that hurt a little [00:31:05] bit. But it’s true. Dentistry is challenging. And you have times where patients are like that too. [00:31:10] And you’ve got to just take it on the chin and realise it’s not personal. People will always speak [00:31:15] to you in a certain way because based on their own ideas [00:31:20] of themselves, not anything to do with you. And I think you’ll find peace [00:31:25] knowing that you’re not that important in life. And whatever happens to you isn’t, you know, [00:31:30] aimed at you. It’s just everybody else is just thinking about themselves in their head. I [00:31:35] think that helps.

Payman Langroudi: When you say you could be sensitive.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, an example of that [00:31:40] where you’re over sensitive. Oh, is it over?

Sarina Kiani: How many? How long have we got?

Payman Langroudi: Is [00:31:45] it over something like someone’s words or something like that?

Sarina Kiani: Um, I think even navigating [00:31:50] work, you know, dynamics, sometimes [00:31:55] it’s difficult to take criticism. It’s really useful. And [00:32:00] when you take the emotion out of it, you’ll know that actually this is been [00:32:05] told. So for my own benefit and I will learn from this. But at the time, [00:32:10] you know, it can hurt a little bit.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Sarina Kiani: And I think.

Payman Langroudi: More than it should.

Sarina Kiani: More [00:32:15] than it should. Yeah. More than it should sometimes. But I think I’ve learned how to manage that as [00:32:20] well. A lot better than I did at the beginning of, of dentistry or [00:32:25] working really not dental school but working.

Payman Langroudi: So I don’t want to make it sound like a job [00:32:30] interview. Yeah. Yeah. But we’ve kind of kind of come across some of your super, super powers, [00:32:35] right? You’re resilient. You’ve you know yourself quite well. You know, [00:32:40] you’re interested in your piece and all of that. You’ve got a good brain on you. You can work [00:32:45] hard. You’re brilliant with people. What would you. What would you say are your biggest weaknesses? Okay. Sensitive. What else? [00:32:50]

Sarina Kiani: My biggest weaknesses and something I’m working on is definitely not [00:32:55] equating my work to my value now. So I used to do that [00:33:00] at school. My grades would be equated to my value. But I have to remind myself [00:33:05] all the time now. There’s no such thing as perfect. Stop trying to be perfect. [00:33:10] That little ledge. You know, nobody died from having a little ledge on their composite. [00:33:15] You know, anything like. That’s silly. But I think my biggest weakness right now is just [00:33:20] not focusing on perfection and being okay [00:33:25] with the journey of learning. You’re getting better every day. Stop [00:33:30] trying to be perfect right away. I think that can [00:33:35] hurt sometimes when I sit at home and I’m thinking about my work, or I take a lot of photos of my work. [00:33:40] And so I sit there and I analyse it, and I have to remove myself and be like, actually, you know what? It’s okay. [00:33:45] Just just relax.

Payman Langroudi: Usually I don’t accept that answer because, you know, that’s a classic. I’m too much of a perfectionist, [00:33:50] but I hear you. Um, it definitely slows you down as well because [00:33:55] for me, my kids go to the French school. Okay?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, yeah. A lot [00:34:00] of my friends did. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And my, my wife speaks French and, uh, they, uh, I [00:34:05] did French for six years in school. Oh, wow. I understand pretty much everything they’re saying, but I [00:34:10] won’t. But I won’t speak French. I will not speak French, because in case I get a masculine [00:34:15] and feminine wrong, and they. And they keep saying, yeah, they keep saying, look, just do it. Just [00:34:20] whatever. Who cares? We’ll correct you. But you know that level of I’m not a perfectionist at all, but in this, [00:34:25] in this area. Yeah. Um, that bit of perfectionism has held me back big time. Yeah. And [00:34:30] it’s the same with anything else you take on. Let’s say you start doing ortho. You’re [00:34:35] not going to be the best orthodontist for the next 15 years. Yeah, but does that mean I shouldn’t start doing [00:34:40] it? Yeah. And you’re going to suffer loads if that’s.

Sarina Kiani: What.

Payman Langroudi: You’re thinking about. Things. [00:34:45]

Sarina Kiani: That is 100% my biggest weakness, because I’m always trying to plan and mitigate all the [00:34:50] risks. Sometimes I prevent myself actually just doing it, and I think it’s held [00:34:55] me back from a lot of things I’ve wanted to do. Like I always imagine myself and it sounds silly, [00:35:00] but like on a stage doing presentations, not so much clinical presentations, but I [00:35:05] don’t know, working for Sensodyne even and and doing all these things. And I was like, no, you [00:35:10] know. Yeah, but you’ve got to do A, B and C before you can do that. And it’s held me back a lot. [00:35:15] You’re right. And when I compare myself to my brother, for example, who just doesn’t [00:35:20] worry about those things and goes for it and just does it.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about him a little bit, because I’m [00:35:25] fascinated by him. Um, I’ve never met him. I drive past his tattoo shop, which, for anyone [00:35:30] who hasn’t seen this, one of the most impressive shops.

Sarina Kiani: Have you been inside?

Payman Langroudi: I’ve [00:35:35] stared.

Sarina Kiani: It’s got like, a pool table. It’s insane.

Payman Langroudi: He’s just the most amazing shop I’ve seen [00:35:40] in ages. I’ve often almost crashed my car looking into it. But when [00:35:45] you turned to studies, did he turn to street culture or something? How did you end [00:35:50] up in tattoos?

Sarina Kiani: Uh, he art. Actually.

Payman Langroudi: Art.

Sarina Kiani: He was an artist. Well, he is an [00:35:55] artist. He doesn’t actually do any of the tattoos himself. He does the designs. So [00:36:00] he used to do these incredible paintings and very. He used to sit [00:36:05] there for hours on end. He’s. I think he’s got ADHD. His his brain couldn’t focus on [00:36:10] studying. And that wasn’t his thing. He didn’t like it. Fair enough. He was very artistic and creative. [00:36:15] And so he would do everything. He was one of those people who had his fingers in a lot of pies, and [00:36:20] he still does. So he would go and buy something on eBay and sell it for more expensive. [00:36:25] At the same time. He’d be painting a painting at the same time. He’d have another part time job. [00:36:30] He was just one of those people just completely doing things, constantly doing things. He will have [00:36:35] an idea now and tomorrow he’ll execute it. He wouldn’t be worrying about, you know. Yeah, [00:36:40] but this could go wrong and that could go wrong. He just does it. He just calls the people and does it, and he’ll make mistakes [00:36:45] on the way. But at least he’s doing it. And I and I think that is what I need to learn 100%, [00:36:50] just to go for it and not worry so much. Um, but yeah, he’s.

Payman Langroudi: Older than [00:36:55] you.

Sarina Kiani: Just a few years. Yeah, three, three a year.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just the two of you?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, just the two of us? Yeah. [00:37:00]

Payman Langroudi: So are we going to see a gigantic dental practice [00:37:05] opening up? The way he’s done his tattoo shop. I mean. [00:37:10]

Sarina Kiani: He asked him. He asked me about that all the time.

Payman Langroudi: No. Listen, I’m sure you [00:37:15] haven’t got plans tomorrow to do it right? But. But if you did open [00:37:20] up a dental practice.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have you got an idea of what you would want it to be, like, [00:37:25] 100%? Really? Really.

Sarina Kiani: I’m have a big vision on the brand [00:37:30] I am, and the kind of brand I would create if I created anything. If [00:37:35] I created a toothpaste tomorrow, I know exactly what that toothpaste would be and who it would be [00:37:40] for.

Payman Langroudi: We can talk about it. Yeah, I keep on telling you not [00:37:45] to, but. Good. Yeah. Go on, go on.

Sarina Kiani: I think it would be [00:37:50] quiet. Quiet. Confidence is what would the brand [00:37:55] would be peaceful, clean girl era which is like popular now on on TikTok [00:38:00] and things like that. And but it’s more than that. It’s having beautiful [00:38:05] little things that you appreciate and you [00:38:10] admire and you find that, [00:38:15] you know, make your day. Having a really nice skincare for me, for example, [00:38:20] like really makes my day knowing that I’m going to use this beautiful packaging [00:38:25] that I’ve just opened up and I’m going to use this beautiful skincare, all these little things during the day give [00:38:30] me this like endorphin rush. So I think if I were to create something, [00:38:35] it would have the same feel that you feel. You know, it’s very beautiful and it’s very [00:38:40] well designed and obviously, you know, good quality too and all [00:38:45] these things. But I’m not sure about dental practice just yet. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [00:38:50] so this place that you’re describing isn’t a dental practice?

Sarina Kiani: No, this is more. If I were to create something, [00:38:55] a brand. Yeah. Yeah, I think.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s a similar idea anyway. Right. [00:39:00] So are you saying you you don’t want to ever open a dental practice? Have you ruled [00:39:05] it out?

Sarina Kiani: I’m not sure I do. Yeah, I haven’t ruled it out. I [00:39:10] think that leaning.

Payman Langroudi: Away from it.

Sarina Kiani: You know, I graduated two years ago, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, certainly. [00:39:15]

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. I’m not trying to rush yet, but I [00:39:20] think if I ever did open one, it would be that kind of vibe.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:39:25] mean, well, you know, there’s, there’s disadvantages and this advantages to being qualified. [00:39:30] Two years ago. Yeah. And people whenever I say that, people say, well what advantage could there be to being [00:39:35] two years out. But the biggest advantage I know is you’re still closer to being [00:39:40] a human than than dentist. Yeah. That’s true. And we all, a lot of us forget what [00:39:45] it’s like to be a patient. Mhm. A consumer. In fact, one of maybe Rona’s [00:39:50] superpower is she has never forgotten that. Yeah. And so you know, but that [00:39:55] that idea that the reason I’m asking you about what would be your dream practice at this [00:40:00] stage is because you’re so much closer to being a regular person. Give it another ten years of being a dentist. [00:40:05] And often we forget we people. People forget what it’s like to be a normal person [00:40:10] before they even qualify as a dentist, because they jump into that persona of doctor. [00:40:15]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: I think yeah. It’s true. The [00:40:20] less you know, the more you can just be yourself and not know. [00:40:25] I mean, I’m not talking about the dentistry side of things, but if I, you [00:40:30] know, don’t know the CEO of this really big brand that much in my head, then I’m not as nervous [00:40:35] of just going up to them at an event. Does that make sense? I think one of the superpowers [00:40:40] of naivety, maybe you might call it, is that you [00:40:45] will just do.

Payman Langroudi: Things that you don’t worry about.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, worry about [00:40:50] it less because you don’t know so much. You don’t know what you don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarina Kiani: So you just do it. And [00:40:55] then obviously other people would be like.

Payman Langroudi: It’s almost like beginner’s luck, you know, like beginner’s luck is a real thing. Yeah, [00:41:00] yeah. And what it is, is that you focus in on just one thing only. And [00:41:05] by focusing on one thing, you can execute that one thing, you know, like, sometimes the [00:41:10] first time you swing a golf club, you hit it all a long way away. And then [00:41:15] after six months of playing golf, you can’t do it as much. Yeah. That’s true. It’s a real thing.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, definitely. [00:41:20]

Payman Langroudi: So you got through dental school. What was your [00:41:25] first job?

Sarina Kiani: First job after dental school? I had two, so I [00:41:30] worked for a little mini corporate. And I also worked for Midea. How did I get [00:41:35] those jobs?

Payman Langroudi: I was post PhD, right?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. Post Post-phd.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry, PhD. Like, who was your boss [00:41:40] there?

Sarina Kiani: Uh, I had an incredible boss. Kamal Farooqi. [00:41:45]

Payman Langroudi: First boss is such.

Sarina Kiani: An important person. Amazing person. [00:41:50] Learned so much from him. Very chilled guy and very high quality. So takes [00:41:55] a lot of, um, you know, pride in his work, which I admire.

Payman Langroudi: I love London.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. [00:42:00] London. Southall. So really busy. Huge practice. [00:42:05] Very high needs area. So I was literally thrown into the deep end. And [00:42:10] I was doing minimum two root canals and extractions on each patient every [00:42:15] single day. Wow. There was a lot, but.

Payman Langroudi: But you learned a lot.

Sarina Kiani: I learned so [00:42:20] much. And I also learned exactly what I don’t want to do for the rest of my life, [00:42:25] too, because I thought, you know what? If this was me, or if this was my mum, I [00:42:30] wouldn’t want them. I wouldn’t want to do the root canal on them. And I from that [00:42:35] day after my PhD day, I literally was like, I’m never going to do a root canal. Ever again in my life. And [00:42:40] I also said to myself that the only way for me to. Achieve the kind of work I want to [00:42:45] do is if I don’t continue with the NHS anymore. And I think [00:42:50] as incredible as the NHS was for teaching me so much, I was just [00:42:55] a little bit older and I thought, you know what, I don’t really want to continue with this. I need [00:43:00] to throw myself into the deep end for what the end goal is, which is working privately. And so I just took the [00:43:05] plunge. Called literally 120 practices. I had little black book of [00:43:10] all their names.

Payman Langroudi: Many of whom you knew from your.

Sarina Kiani: Many of them who I had maybe even seen once. [00:43:15] I wouldn’t be as stretched to say I knew them, but I’d seen them. I feel like I [00:43:20] built a little bit of a connection with them, and I just went and knocked. I messaged so [00:43:25] many friends, a lot of which were like dental nurses or hygienists. Hey, do [00:43:30] you know anyone that might hire? I heard a lot of no’s, obviously, as you would. I turned [00:43:35] up to one of the practices that I got the job, the mini corporate. I just turned up. I wasn’t getting any [00:43:40] responses from the emails. It was down the road from my mom’s. So I turned up one day with [00:43:45] a little USB drive with like my portfolio of work. I would take pictures as well during my [00:43:50] PhD year. I would take pictures of everything and anything as horrendous [00:43:55] as it looked. And when I look back now, I think, what the hell was that? My first ever composite bonding case [00:44:00] was horrendous and I took, but I took pictures of it. And I also put in handwritten [00:44:05] reviews from patients because in South Hall a lot of patients, their English wasn’t [00:44:10] very good and they couldn’t go on, you know, Google and leave me reviews. I would get them to write [00:44:15] handwritten reviews, and I would take a picture of it, and I’d put it in this like PowerPoint presentation [00:44:20] that I took on a USB stick with me everywhere. And I got.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, I got the job from [00:44:25] the first job that I got, the little mini corporate. He actually said to me, [00:44:30] I can’t believe you turned up because he also was the clinical director for like 15 [00:44:35] practices. So this is what I mean about I didn’t know what I didn’t know. If I knew that, [00:44:40] maybe I would have been a bit more nervous. But at the time I didn’t know. I just thought he was, you know, the main guy at [00:44:45] that practice went there and I said, hi, do you have five minutes? He’s like, not really. But I [00:44:50] said, please, you know, I’ll come back when you have five minutes. Um, and he sat down with me. I plugged [00:44:55] in my little USB and I showed him, honestly, the worst work ever. But he just said I hired you not because of your [00:45:00] work, but because you had the courage to come and knock on my door [00:45:05] and actually ask me for a job.

Payman Langroudi: So there we go again. Yeah, yeah, there we go again. You [00:45:10] pushing and resilience and and I remember I, I never I [00:45:15] only applied for jobs where there were jobs. Never did I go somewhere and say have you got [00:45:20] a job. Yeah. Um, but you went to 100 people. Yeah. 100. That’s, [00:45:25] you know, 98 nose as well. Yeah. Bearing in mind, you know, that that resilience, [00:45:30] right?

Sarina Kiani: Genuinely, that comes from naivety as well, I’d say. Yeah. I think it goes back to what you [00:45:35] said, because the less you know, I didn’t have a lot of friends [00:45:40] in dentistry in the sense that, you know, my mum wasn’t a dentist, my dad wasn’t a dentist. So I didn’t really know [00:45:45] how things work that.

Payman Langroudi: I kind of knew from your GSK days that you could just show up at reception and say, [00:45:50] someone around.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, actually, that’s so true because I would cold call, I would have to go to reception [00:45:55] and working for GSK as a rep, I learned very quickly that the [00:46:00] boss is not the principal dentist. The boss is the receptionist, the [00:46:05] manager at the practice who often is got nothing to do with dentistry. And if [00:46:10] you’re sweet with them, just by being genuine and being nice to people and just having a real conversation. Oh. [00:46:15] Hi, Sharon. How was your kids? You know, he’s, you know, some samples or whatever it was. I [00:46:20] learned that they are the gatekeepers. So when I wanted a job, it was the same. [00:46:25] I’d go, I’d be real with the people at the door. Not just be friendly to the [00:46:30] dentist who’s going to give me the job and then ignore everybody else like they don’t exist? I think, [00:46:35] yeah, I think that helped too.

Payman Langroudi: It does. I mean, that’s the first thing we tell our people [00:46:40] when they join here about the managers and the receptionists [00:46:45] being the key people. Um, and I mean, it’s weird, man, because some dentists [00:46:50] tell their receptionists keep everyone away.

Sarina Kiani: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you [00:46:55] know. Yeah. Join join me on the supplier side now. Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah that’s. [00:47:00]

Payman Langroudi: True. Some some dentists tell them that some choose to like what you just said there. [00:47:05] They almost exert power over the ones they don’t like. [00:47:10] And the opposite over the ones they do like. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s where you got in by [00:47:15] being lovely and respectful and remembering people’s names and children and all of that. Yeah. [00:47:20] Um, but for me, it’s a funny one. Now, you’re a dentist. You can sort of look at it from the other side. Yeah. Salespeople [00:47:25] have a bunch of information, a bunch of information [00:47:30] that they can. I would look at now, if I was a dentist again, I would look at salespeople as educators because [00:47:35] they know at least they know about the market, right? They know they know about best practice. They know so [00:47:40] and so in reading is doing this amazing thing that, you know, you could learn from. They know about [00:47:45] their product, their product specialists, right? So they can explain how to sell that product or the [00:47:50] benefits are so, you know, and yeah, maybe once in a while they’ll ask you to buy something. Yeah. [00:47:55] But a lot of lot of dentists have this idea that salespeople should be kept away because I’m busy [00:48:00] being a dentist, you know, and then they’ll go on a weekend course for education, you know, see [00:48:05] them. Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, yeah. And realise actually that it’s probably a good thing if you’re, you know, [00:48:10] friends with them.

Payman Langroudi: And did you have in your head any idea of the type [00:48:15] of dentist you wanted to be?

Sarina Kiani: I met a lot of amazing. Yeah, I met a [00:48:20] lot of amazing dentists and even mehedi himself.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Who were the are the standout ones that you [00:48:25] met? Right? Mehdi.

Sarina Kiani: Definitely. Mehdi. Yeah, definitely.

Payman Langroudi: What was it about him?

Sarina Kiani: Even [00:48:30] now, I still work for him. His enthusiasm [00:48:35] every single day. His positive energy. I’m not saying, you know, [00:48:40] fake it, but sometimes you do got to fake it till you make it. And I think just [00:48:45] how much he loves everything he does. I think that stands out. You [00:48:50] know, you meet some people and they’re energy vampires, and you meet other people, and they motivate [00:48:55] you and they give you. Yeah, they give you energy just by. They’re not trying to do it. They’re just being [00:49:00] themselves. They’re just genuinely happy having a great day and it rubs off on you. [00:49:05] And I think people like that definitely.

Payman Langroudi: I think look there is some faking [00:49:10] it as well. Yeah. Because sometimes you’ve had a terrible morning and you come to your business [00:49:15] and then you kind of put your face on for your business and yeah, you know, say, say [00:49:20] hi to people and smile and so on. There is an element of it 100%. Um, at [00:49:25] the same time, he he is a very positive person. Who else? What other kind of traits? [00:49:30]

Sarina Kiani: Uh, Luke Athwal very good friend of mine.

Payman Langroudi: One thing. Are you his friend from from GSK [00:49:35] as well?

Sarina Kiani: No. Do you know what? I became friends with him just through Instagram. So more.

Payman Langroudi: Of [00:49:40] him.

Sarina Kiani: Oh, we just started kind of messaging. We had a lot [00:49:45] of mutual friends and actually we started going to like Ibiza together with these groups of friends [00:49:50] and just being like, genuinely friends. Nothing to.

Payman Langroudi: Do.

Sarina Kiani: With dentistry. Amazing. [00:49:55] What I love about him is he’s such a cool, cool cucumber. That’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Cool. [00:50:00]

Sarina Kiani: Cat. Yeah. Cool cat. He’s a cool cat. And even the kind [00:50:05] of challenges he faces and how relaxed he is, I think that’s my favourite trait. That’s [00:50:10] something I look at even today and I think, yeah, definitely need to be more like that. Even when things go wrong. [00:50:15] Or, you know, patients can be a bit challenging. I think being a cool cat and [00:50:20] reminding myself that, you know what? He’s got a lot more stress than I do and a lot [00:50:25] more complex cases than he’s a cool cat. That means I can be a cool cat. I think that as well. And [00:50:30] obviously Rona during Covid, watching her transform the practice, because [00:50:35] I was in the practice when the practice wasn’t renovated yet. Yeah. Didn’t [00:50:40] have such a big number of staff. I watched it kind of blossom [00:50:45] and grow so much. And to what it is today is insane.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an extraordinary [00:50:50] practice. It really is. Um, and her connection to all the [00:50:55] movers and shakers in London.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is amazing. Yeah, [00:51:00] definitely. It is amazing. Um, what are the patient groups like in [00:51:05] these different practices? I mean, so these ones are very sort of family practice. Where is it? Twickenham.

Sarina Kiani: Twickenham [00:51:10] and Hampton.

Payman Langroudi: So is it, as you would expect, just families, kids?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, I’d say [00:51:15] a lot of very genuinely nice people. Reasonable I describe as because in [00:51:20] dentistry things don’t always go to plan. You know, cram might have not come on the day.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. [00:51:25] And I think that helps. Really helps a lot of very reasonable people. [00:51:30] Um, yeah. Very educated, very nice. It [00:51:35] makes going to work. You need to have, I think, two, two things. A good boss and [00:51:40] good patience. And then that makes the day a lot nicer. And I think definitely [00:51:45] at his practice he’s cultivated that. I think you are your tribe. So you attract [00:51:50] what kind of energy you give out. And I think a lot of his patients are very similar.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re [00:51:55] still working both practices.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah I.

Payman Langroudi: Do. So I mean, maybe I’m wrong, but are the prices much higher [00:52:00] at Rona’s?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, there are different pricing, different location. Um, but the quality of work is [00:52:05] the same.

Payman Langroudi: So how does that feel?

Sarina Kiani: At the start, [00:52:10] it felt wrong asking patients for so much money.

Payman Langroudi: But you [00:52:15] get used to it very quickly.

Sarina Kiani: You get used to it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: Because you realise that I can’t. This is. This [00:52:20] is the price. Because this is the practice I work at. It’s not my practice. And also you realise that actually, [00:52:25] you know what, with all the effort I’m putting in and knowing that I’m going to give my 110% [00:52:30] because I know me, I think, why not? This is worth it. I know how much I’m going [00:52:35] to care about this tooth for you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Sarina Kiani: So it is worth it.

Payman Langroudi: I found the acceleration [00:52:40] was exciting, right? When you when you change jobs and go to a practice where the prices are [00:52:45] much higher for about the first month, you’re whispering. It’s so exciting. [00:52:50]

Sarina Kiani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s really exciting that that feeling that I used to do for £140, that I’m doing for 299, [00:52:55] or that crown that I was doing for 700. Now I’m doing for 1400 [00:53:00] or something. Yeah, and for about a month. It’s super exciting. You think [00:53:05] you’re doing numbers in your head and you think, wow, this is going to be amazing. And then very quickly it [00:53:10] all becomes very normal.

Sarina Kiani: Can I be honest?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: Can I be completely honest? And this might sound [00:53:15] very, very naive. Yeah, I don’t think about the numbers at all. [00:53:20] I’m in a privileged position where obviously I’m making enough to, you know, [00:53:25] get by and I’m good. But I never look at the numbers. I don’t I never [00:53:30] think about it. I should and my husband says to me all the time, I should too, but [00:53:35] I try not to focus on it. I think I’m at a stage right now.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t focus on.

Sarina Kiani: It. I focus more on, [00:53:40] you know, the experience. Yeah. The lab. How am I going to do this treatment? Which lab is better? Should [00:53:45] I go and watch, you know, Stuart next door doing his incredible restorative work and learning [00:53:50] from him and all these things. Should I go and speak to Mitchell about the best way to fix the gums? All these [00:53:55] things? I think my headspace is is there. So I don’t think too much about the numbers. I [00:54:00] should think about the numbers.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t think about the numbers during the day.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But at the end of the day, [00:54:05] tot up your numbers. Yeah, that’s good practice, man. That’s good practice for everyone. [00:54:10] But but another interesting thing is, if I can give you a piece of advice in [00:54:15] your that’s so early on in your career. Yeah. Learn how to give completely [00:54:20] painless injections.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Completely painless injections. And the [00:54:25] the word of mouth you’ll get from that. Yeah. Because very few of us [00:54:30] dentists give completely painless injections. Yeah. And I experienced it myself. [00:54:35] My wife gave me an injection 25 years after I became a dentist. [00:54:40] And I felt zero. I felt nothing. The first I felt of it was when it started going [00:54:45] numb. Yeah. And it’s a very simple thing. Dry the area.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:54:50]

Payman Langroudi: Topical for full. 5 or 6 minutes. Five. Six minutes of topical. And in that [00:54:55] 5 or 6 minutes. Thank God in private practice, we can make relationships. We can talk. We can discuss [00:55:00] hopes and dreams, holidays, failures. You know, talking to patients. Very important in [00:55:05] private practice.

[TRANSITION]: Part of my work. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So five, six full minutes of this [00:55:10] Topical on dry mucosa and then very [00:55:15] slowly, very, very, very slowly, almost five, six minutes of pushing that plunger.

[TRANSITION]: In.

Sarina Kiani: The cartilages. [00:55:20]

[TRANSITION]: As well.

Sarina Kiani: I heat those up. I’m not gonna lie. I think I am good at.

[TRANSITION]: That. [00:55:25]

Sarina Kiani: Because I. You’re right. I’ve even had people come to me and said, oh, I’ve heard you’re [00:55:30] very good with anxious patients. I get a lot of anxious patients. I had a patient come in the other [00:55:35] day. She come, she come three hours just to see me because she saw a [00:55:40] review on my TikTok.

[TRANSITION]: The word of mouth, the word.

Payman Langroudi: Of mouth from anxious patients goes.

[TRANSITION]: Quick. [00:55:45]

Sarina Kiani: Judgement pain free.

[TRANSITION]: You.

Sarina Kiani: Know, taking your time.

Payman Langroudi: Even silly things [00:55:50] like when you first put your hands in their mouth, do it very gently. Even something as silly as [00:55:55] that.

[TRANSITION]: I’ve got.

Sarina Kiani: Freakishly small hands.

[TRANSITION]: So sometimes.

Sarina Kiani: People call up the practice and they’re like, I [00:56:00] want to be seen by Serena. I swear this has happened a few times, especially at Maddie’s. They [00:56:05] say I need Serena to see me because I’ve seen the pictures of pictures of her. And I need someone with small [00:56:10] hands.

[TRANSITION]: Genuinely.

Sarina Kiani: I’ve got the world’s smallest.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:56:15] funny because there are occasions in the industry where it’s incorrect to be gentle. Yeah, there [00:56:20] are times where you have to push some matrix down, some gingerly, quite hard or whatever it is. Yeah. There [00:56:25] are times where good dentistry is not gentle. Yeah, yeah. But gentle dentistry [00:56:30] is always good. It’s one of those things. It’s such a big practice builder that news [00:56:35] travels so quickly almost within families as well, because whole families are nervous [00:56:40] together because they’ve all told each other stories. Um, and then whole families tell other [00:56:45] nervous families, and people follow my wife around. I mean, only [00:56:50] for that reason. I mean, she’s a nice person and all that, but it’s a big factor.

[TRANSITION]: It is a big factor. [00:56:55]

Payman Langroudi: Big, big, big factor.

Sarina Kiani: I mean, if you saw me and you thought [00:57:00] I told you I’m going to stick a needle in your mouth, I think most people wouldn’t be [00:57:05] nervous. I think this goes back to what I was saying about brand. I think that [00:57:10] if you are a personable person and you’re calm and you’re [00:57:15] genuinely just in everyday life, like, I’ll go to the gym and I’ll meet someone or I’ll go [00:57:20] to, you know, a coffee shop, and I’ll speak to someone. I might ask me, what do [00:57:25] I do? And I tell them, I’m a dentist. They’re surprised and they think, oh, genuinely. [00:57:30] I’ve heard people say, oh, I’d want to come and see you. You seem nice because [00:57:35] most people are scared by going to the dentist. They’re nervous. They don’t know what’s going on in their [00:57:40] mouth. It’s quite a big thing, trusting someone to be inside your mouth [00:57:45] and not knowing what’s going on. And I think that, yeah, 100% you do get followed [00:57:50] around. If someone feels like they are in good hands, or that they can trust [00:57:55] you, or that you’re calm, you’re a nice person. Nice person works too. Or [00:58:00] you’re funny. Sometimes I think I’m funny.

[TRANSITION]: Funny looking.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, [00:58:05] I think it helps.

Payman Langroudi: So the patience that Chelsea must be quite demanding.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm. [00:58:10]

Payman Langroudi: And you’re newly qualified. You must have had [00:58:15] some concerns about that. Have you now figured it out. Like what you need to do, [00:58:20] say and do and when you need to ask for help and this sort of thing. How are you. How are you managing [00:58:25] that?

Sarina Kiani: You know, no one has said, oh, did you just graduate? No one’s ever said that to [00:58:30] me. Have you? Newly graduated? No. I might look it.

Payman Langroudi: No, you don’t look it. [00:58:35] But.

[TRANSITION]: But I think.

Payman Langroudi: How do you negotiate it yourself? When you have a patient who’s demanding and you’ve got a job [00:58:40] that looks difficult.

Sarina Kiani: Look, I know my limitations. So after a console, I can [00:58:45] kind of gauge suss someone out a little bit. And I think that if they’re very aesthetically driven [00:58:50] or very aesthetically demanding, I know that maybe right now they might not be the best [00:58:55] person for me to treat. I know my limitations. I also know what everybody [00:59:00] in the what everybody else in the team is good is good at doing, and so I’m good at delegating. [00:59:05] You know, if I, I think the case is a little bit tricky. Send them straight to the orthodontist [00:59:10] specialist. If I think that this is a full veneer case, you [00:59:15] know, tend to top teeth, then I’ll send them to Rhona [00:59:20] or Luke or Stuart. You know, so I think delegating and knowing your [00:59:25] weaknesses is is smart.

Payman Langroudi: Hard to know, though, isn’t.

[TRANSITION]: It, because.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t know [00:59:30] how good you are at something until you’ve done it?

Sarina Kiani: I think if you’ve done it, yeah, if you’ve done [00:59:35] it a few times and you feel more confident, I just gauge on [00:59:40] the kind of energy the patient is giving me, how demanding they are, and correlate that [00:59:45] with how much experience have I got in doing this? Am I.

[TRANSITION]: Going to be do you think.

Payman Langroudi: You sort of empathetically [00:59:50] like, are you an empath?

[TRANSITION]: Can you can you 100%? I can sense.

Sarina Kiani: When someone’s. [00:59:55]

[TRANSITION]: See.

Sarina Kiani: That’s also a weakness because if I don’t get so at Chelsea, sometimes you [01:00:00] might not get that huge reaction that you might get somewhere else. You know where some people are really [01:00:05] grateful. Obviously, they’ve paid a lot of money. The standards.

[TRANSITION]: Are different. Expect high standards. Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: So, you [01:00:10] know, they might not look in the mirror and start crying.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: So sometimes you think, oh, oh. [01:00:15] You’re like.

[TRANSITION]: You have this moment inside where you’re like, why are you.

Sarina Kiani: Not crying.

[TRANSITION]: At the.

Sarina Kiani: Transformation [01:00:20] that I’ve just done? Um, and you, you know, because I’m such an [01:00:25] empath, I can feel it. You know, if a patient comes through the door and they’re being a little bit short with me, I instantly [01:00:30] think, oh, my God, you know, they don’t. You know, they might not like me or something. I’m working on that too. [01:00:35] That happens, I think, a lot. And learning to separate yourself from their reactions [01:00:40] is important too.

Payman Langroudi: So when you’re working [01:00:45] in a practice like Chelsea.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have you not [01:00:50] come across a situation where there must be some sort of borderline [01:00:55] situations? Right. Like there’s going to be things you’re doing for the first time. [01:01:00]

[TRANSITION]: Should I give you an example of where.

Sarina Kiani: Communication broke down? Because I keep talking about how [01:01:05] amazing I am at communication.

[TRANSITION]: Actually.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes the podcast.

Sarina Kiani: Sometimes things don’t always [01:01:10] pan out how you want.

[TRANSITION]: And you have.

Sarina Kiani: To also realise that that’s okay too. No one died. You know, [01:01:15] I had an instance where a patient was running late quite [01:01:20] significantly, and I had a full diary. I had another patient coming in and [01:01:25] my go to kind of my predisposition isn’t to be, you know, judgemental. [01:01:30] What the hell are you doing? And being right. It’s always like, oh, I wonder if they’re okay.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: Do you think they might be [01:01:35] able to make the appointment? Do they even want to know they’re paying a lot? Do they even want to maybe change the [01:01:40] day? That’s what in my head, my thought process. Right. So I called the patient, and I’m like, you [01:01:45] know, I’ve noticed you’re running late. Are you okay? Do you still want to come? Yes. I’m coming. Very [01:01:50] short, very blunt. I’m like, oh, okay. Put the phone down. They come there about [01:01:55] half an hour late to a 45 minute appointment. Now we’ve got 15 minutes. Now I can’t really do much. [01:02:00] You’re going to pay the full amount for that 45 minutes, and I’m not going to be able to give you everything [01:02:05] I would have if you actually had the time. And so they come and I say, oh, you know, are you okay? [01:02:10] Just being my general empathetic self. Right. Doesn’t work for some people. [01:02:15] You were you know you were. Now I’ve only got 15 minutes. Are you okay to continue [01:02:20] with the appointment? Why are you reminding me that I’m late? This is so out of order. So disrespectful. [01:02:25] And I’m like, whoa, wait. What? And go. We’re doing the [01:02:30] appointment. Everything’s so frosty. I’m in her mouth. It’s very awkward, I feel uncomfortable, [01:02:35] the nurse is uncomfortable. I can feel the tension in the air.

Sarina Kiani: So me being me, I. [01:02:40] After I sit her up, I’m like, I’m really sorry if I offended you. Makes it worse. Um, [01:02:45] makes it worse sometimes. Don’t address the elephant in the room. I learned that the hard way, too. [01:02:50] She. She left anyway. It broke down. She wrote [01:02:55] an email to the practice saying I was I was, um, you know, disappointed. [01:03:00] I was being reminded that I was late. And in my head I’m thinking, oh my God, no. Like, I [01:03:05] was trying to see if you even wanted to have the appointment shortened, you know, because I’m not going [01:03:10] to be able to do everything we’d planned to do. That was my thought process. And then I learned, you know what? Don’t [01:03:15] speak so much sometimes. Don’t just leave it. You don’t have to [01:03:20] always be someone’s best friend. You know, you’re empathetic in your head, but in someone else’s head that has [01:03:25] obviously come across the wrong way. And that’s okay, too. And that was a hard pill to swallow [01:03:30] because I would I would go home and think, oh my God, like, now she’s upset with me for all this thing. [01:03:35] And I realised that everyone’s perception is different. Their reality [01:03:40] is different. I might have not meant any harm, but obviously it [01:03:45] didn’t come across that way. And that’s okay.

Payman Langroudi: I bet you the same patient, if you’re five [01:03:50] minutes late for them, go berserk as well.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, and I wasn’t even telling them off. I was just trying to make sure. [01:03:55]

[TRANSITION]: They were okay. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to that darker part of the pod.

[TRANSITION]: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Darkness [01:04:00] stakes.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm. Mistakes?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Clinical errors.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:04:05]

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind when I say clinical error. What happened and what did you learn or [01:04:10] what can we all learn. You know that’s the point of it isn’t it.

Sarina Kiani: Let me paint you a picture.

[TRANSITION]: Payman.

Sarina Kiani: It [01:04:15] was my first day in my first private [01:04:20] job.

Payman Langroudi: Midi.

Sarina Kiani: Midi. [01:04:25] Yeah. First zirconia crown that I was [01:04:30] going to prep for. First big treatment. That was my first big treat. Private treatment I [01:04:35] was ever going to do. Patient comes in. Give them my ID block. [01:04:40] Big. Very tall, big gentleman. Very nice guy. I [01:04:45] always wait about ten, 15 minutes, sit them upright, wait all [01:04:50] the usual. And then I’m checking. Is he numb? It’s not numb. Okay. [01:04:55] Give him a little bit more. Wait another five, ten minutes. He says he’s numb. [01:05:00] Tongue feels a bit numb. Lip feels a bit numb. Okay, fine. Give the rest. [01:05:05] Sit him back down. Take the burr to his tooth. And he jumps in [01:05:10] the air like he. He screeches and my heart sinks. I’m thinking, oh my God, [01:05:15] he’s not numb. There’s no way. What’s happened? Give him a little bit more. Give [01:05:20] him a little bit more. A little bit more ID?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Again.

Sarina Kiani: Uh.

[TRANSITION]: Buckle [01:05:25] ligament or.

Sarina Kiani: Ligament? I tried everything in the book.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm. [01:05:30]

Sarina Kiani: And every time I’d take the drill, he’d jump again. And I thought, oh my [01:05:35] God, this isn’t going to work. I sat him up and I said, look I can’t prep the tooth today. [01:05:40] You’re just not numbing up. And at that point, you know, some time has gone by and I see [01:05:45] that he can’t close his mouth. He’s unable to, like, really close his close his mouth and [01:05:50] he starts to say, I can’t swallow Serena. I’m like, oh my God, I’m panicking because I’m thinking, [01:05:55] you know what? This is the first Crown prep in my private job, and I’ve ruined it. I’m [01:06:00] going to stop dentistry. I’m going to give up dentistry. It’s not for me. And he goes home. So I rebook [01:06:05] the appointment. I’m thinking, oh, it’s all fine. He calls. We’re just about to close. This is a [01:06:10] Saturday, by the way. He calls. We’re just about to close. I need to come back in. I can’t breathe, I don’t [01:06:15] feel well. He comes back in. Everyone else is left. By the way, all the other dentists. There’s only one other dentist [01:06:20] and he’s. He’s left. He comes back. I call the other dentist. I’m like, please turn around. I don’t know how to [01:06:25] manage this. I’m a bit worried. And he comes in. One of my colleagues, bless him, he comes back [01:06:30] and he checks. He checks his airways, he checks everything. Does the standard, you know, procedure [01:06:35] in this. At this point I am shitting myself. But I [01:06:40] am very good at not showing that I’m shitting myself. So I’m like, no, it’s fine. You know, these things happen sometimes. [01:06:45] We have given you a lot of anaesthetic, But inside I am dying. I’m crying. I’m [01:06:50] thinking I’m giving up dentistry. I’m already thinking in my head of all the other careers I might want to pursue. And [01:06:55] anyway, my obviously very experienced colleague is able to calm [01:07:00] him down, give him some water and he’s totally fine. He sends him home.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a panic.

Sarina Kiani: Attack. [01:07:05] I have a panic attack. Yeah, he’s having a panic attack. What’s going on? What was going on? I think he had a little bit of a panic [01:07:10] attack. I’m having a panic attack. Yeah. He leaves, I’m shaking. I’m. [01:07:15] Someone’s then bringing water for me because I’m panicking, I go home. I [01:07:20] didn’t sleep all weekend because I was waiting to call him back on Monday, make sure he was okay. And [01:07:25] yeah, of course he’s okay. Comes back, obviously spend the rest of the week planning [01:07:30] the the type of lay I’m going to give him that’s going to work this time. And [01:07:35] lo and behold, yeah, it does work because I did something differently and it was all okay. And luckily [01:07:40] Touchwood, he was good. He was a good patient. It couldn’t have happened on a better patient, you know. [01:07:45] But it was a good learning curve because I.

Payman Langroudi: Spent the learning point.

Sarina Kiani: The learning [01:07:50] point.

Payman Langroudi: Differently.

Sarina Kiani: Nothing that these things happen that actually why have [01:07:55] I just ruined. I ruined my entire weekend worrying about it and not sleeping, and I probably [01:08:00] ruined everyone else’s weekend. That was around me, worrying about it and realising that these things [01:08:05] happen and it’s okay. And it probably happen again. Probably not the same mistake, but [01:08:10] something will go wrong again and it’s okay.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I like it, I like it because [01:08:15] it’s a bit different. Yeah, but it’s not enough. I mean.

Sarina Kiani: You want to get darker.

Payman Langroudi: Have you got any darker ones?

Sarina Kiani: Not [01:08:20] yet.

Payman Langroudi: Genuinely management issues I mean like that previous one. That was a good one. Any other management [01:08:25] issues?

Sarina Kiani: Genuinely, no.

Payman Langroudi: You haven’t been doing it long enough.

Sarina Kiani: That’s what I’m saying. It’s [01:08:30] hard to give you really dark, juicy things because I’ve haven’t been doing it that long.

Payman Langroudi: Biggest [01:08:35] mistake as a tactical mistake that you’ve made in your career.

Sarina Kiani: That make mistakes. [01:08:40]

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Sarina Kiani: It’s gonna sound so cringe though. You’re not going to want to [01:08:45] hear it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: Go on. I don’t believe in any mistakes because.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t want to hear.

Sarina Kiani: That. Exactly. I knew you wouldn’t want [01:08:50] to.

Payman Langroudi: Hear it.

Sarina Kiani: Because even even working for a certain place, you know, six months. And I thought, oh, I need to get [01:08:55] out. Even that taught me a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but look, the reason I’m asking is because [01:09:00] mistakes teach us. Yeah, but I don’t. So that’s why I’m asking.

Sarina Kiani: I guess I [01:09:05] don’t know. I haven’t really.

Payman Langroudi: It might be.

Sarina Kiani: I think it is. I haven’t had any dark juicy.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:09:10] it’s interesting. Yeah. Because a lot of what you’re saying you’re, you’re following up with. And that’s okay. [01:09:15] And it’s almost like, I don’t know, it’s a new experience for you letting yourself off the hook. Yeah, [01:09:20] a little bit.

Sarina Kiani: Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: Which is good though. Yeah. Because like, evolution [01:09:25] is a really important thing when it comes to I mean what we’re talking here now. Mental health.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. [01:09:30]

Payman Langroudi: Where we’re at.

Sarina Kiani: I think so I think getting older is realising [01:09:35] that you’ve got so many more years of this to come. And [01:09:40] do you want to suffer? Do you want to put yourself in this position [01:09:45] again and again and again? I think when you’re younger, it can feel like you’re in this bubble [01:09:50] and the most, you know, horrendous thing that’s happened. You know, whatever’s gone wrong at work, you [01:09:55] can feel like that’s your entire world. But when you’re older and you get humbled by life and [01:10:00] other things that happen outside of work, you realise that you you do it is okay. [01:10:05] Because, you know, I’ve got more important things going on at home. There are people that are suffering with more [01:10:10] important things that, you know, it’s just teeth. You can relax and you tried your best [01:10:15] and I think that’s important.

Payman Langroudi: You told me before off mic [01:10:20] that you kind of manifested things in your life.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, I hate that word [01:10:25] as much as anybody else, but yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What does it mean?

Sarina Kiani: I have a little sheet of paper. I [01:10:30] took a picture of it genuinely, where I wrote the dates of the [01:10:35] years, and next to it I had GSK, I wanted [01:10:40] to go to kings and kings only for dentistry. And all those things happened. They might [01:10:45] have not happened in that year that I’d planned them to, but everything that I [01:10:50] had imagined, I achieved now after I achieved it. [01:10:55] Was I happy and content? Absolutely not. Like anything in life, any goal in life, [01:11:00] you realise when you achieve it that you still want to achieve something else. There’s always something [01:11:05] you want to gain. And I think that’s where it comes back to the mental health things that I [01:11:10] say. I realised quite quickly that if I couldn’t make making my cup of [01:11:15] coffee in the morning the most enjoyable thing, that I would never be happy. And I think [01:11:20] romanticising all the little things in life brings you so much more joy. It’s [01:11:25] the same for people that say, you know, I live for the weekend. What about the rest of the five [01:11:30] days in the week? And I think if you can make all those little mundane [01:11:35] tasks really, genuinely enjoyable, whatever it is, you know?

Payman Langroudi: I mean, they [01:11:40] call it living in the moment, right?

Sarina Kiani: It’s hard, though, living in the moment, I find. Hard because I’m [01:11:45] an overthinker. So what does that even mean? So instead of saying to myself, for me, it [01:11:50] didn’t work, saying living in the moment didn’t work because I’m always like planning things, right? Instead, [01:11:55] I said, focus on the enjoyment of the moment. What [01:12:00] am I doing and why is this so pleasurable?

Payman Langroudi: Enjoyment is an interesting word here because [01:12:05] I don’t know if you’ve ever looked at any Anthony Robbins Tony Robbins stuff.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And he’ll throw [01:12:10] the word enjoy into it. Yeah. And as soon as like he’ll say something [01:12:15] like, how can I get through this thing as quickly as possible and enjoy, enjoy the process. And [01:12:20] as soon as you put enjoy in your brain, fix comes up with different things because your brain [01:12:25] is sort of pain. Pleasure thing.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know.

Sarina Kiani: I heard on a podcast [01:12:30] that anxiety I used to suffer a little bit with anxiety when I first [01:12:35] started working privately on the way to work. I’d have this rumbling in my belly where I felt like, [01:12:40] oh my God, I hope everything goes okay. I hope it’s all well. Yeah, I learned on [01:12:45] the podcast that anxiety is the same chemical reaction in your brain as [01:12:50] excitement.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: And if you tell yourself that it’s actually I’m just excited. I’m excited for [01:12:55] the day. You have to lie to yourself. After a while, your brain will actually take it as an excitement.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:13:00] the same chemical.

Sarina Kiani: It’s the same.

Payman Langroudi: Chemical?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. Kind of. Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: And he’s asking, um, [01:13:05] Olympic athletes or something. How do you feel? Well, someone someone is asking, but he [01:13:10] kind of popularised that idea. It’s interesting. It’s an interesting thing. Um, and both [01:13:15] can be true, right? You can be excited and nervous at the same time. Um, but just. [01:13:20]

Sarina Kiani: Focus on the excitement part. You’re you’re still going to be nervous.

Payman Langroudi: But being this overthinker. Right? [01:13:25] I’m an overthinker myself. Yeah. And sort of the power of now thing it says [01:13:30] now. Right, right, right now is more important than definitely [01:13:35] the past.

Sarina Kiani: Definitely. But but you know, even the future.

Payman Langroudi: The future as well. Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: You’re not there. [01:13:40] You’re not. Why are you then? You’re just rushing through life and you can’t enjoy it? Yeah, definitely. [01:13:45] Because if you think about the year and all the big holidays you have planned. Yeah. Great. [01:13:50] That’s like, what, one 2% of the entire year or even like January Blues. Why [01:13:55] does January have to be blue? You know, why can’t it be colourful?

Payman Langroudi: No, no, I always think of [01:14:00] it, you know, like people who work in the city, they work their butts off sometimes, right? Or most of the time. [01:14:05] Um, and sometimes buy back happiness for four weeks of the year. Yeah. [01:14:10] In the Caribbean?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And what about the other.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. Don’t get me wrong. I would love.

Payman Langroudi: To be.

Sarina Kiani: A Caribbean. [01:14:15]

Payman Langroudi: No, but my.

Sarina Kiani: Happiness would be through the roof. But.

Payman Langroudi: But what about the other 48 weeks? You know, like, [01:14:20] that’s it’s a it’s a bloody good point. Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: People ask me all the time, how was your week? [01:14:25] What did you get up to? And if I actually told you my week I went to the gym, I [01:14:30] went to work, I came home, I cooked, Didn’t see anybody. Didn’t do anything exciting. [01:14:35] Quote unquote. Exciting? Yeah. I had the best week. Why did you have [01:14:40] the best week? Oh, because I wore my favourite new gym gear that I’ve been [01:14:45] ordering online from China that arrived. You know, I’ve been waiting for for three months, or I [01:14:50] bought these new coffee beans that I’ve been waiting to sniff before I grind, because I bought this new [01:14:55] coffee machine that I’ve been trying out this little latte art on, like silly little. [01:15:00] I noticed decaf in the night and then caffeinated in the morning, of course, which is a nightmare. Trying to [01:15:05] change the beans. I’m ten out of ten. Do not recommend. Um, but I [01:15:10] realised that actually I had a great week. I, you know, I called my uncle in [01:15:15] Iran and we had this 20 minute revelation of on FaceTime over. But [01:15:20] if I told you that that sounds like the most boring week ever. But I had the nicest week. Genuinely, [01:15:25] I had a great week.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, let’s look quickly. Social media. Yes, [01:15:30] because you seem very native. You seem very, very comfortable. Yeah. I was looking at your [01:15:35] TikTok. So comfortable talking to the camera. Hot takes on things. [01:15:40] Yeah. Um, all dressed and made up and all that. Tell [01:15:45] me. Talk me through it. I mean, how much of it is, you know, like, pure, sheer, tactical, [01:15:50] you know, hard work and how much of it is you just can’t help yourself making content. [01:15:55]

Sarina Kiani: Do you know the content that works really well is the one where I’m literally eating. And I just [01:16:00] had an idea and I thought, let me just film myself. That goes viral. And the one that I took [01:16:05] literally three hours.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, likes that.

Sarina Kiani: Three hours perfecting this case that [01:16:10] I wanted to talk you through and all the science behind it. No one gives. No one cares [01:16:15] about that. And so I think it goes back to like just being yourself and being.

Payman Langroudi: Does it represent [01:16:20] to you? I mean, does it represent to you a marketing platform? Yes, it’s marketing 100%. [01:16:25]

Sarina Kiani: No, it’s it’s not self-expression. I’ve never Been someone that tries to [01:16:30] express that loudly, outwards to people.

Payman Langroudi: You seem very comfortable.

Sarina Kiani: Like, because I have an ulterior [01:16:35] motive. It’s the brand. I want to get my name out. It’s me hustling. It’s [01:16:40] my way of hustling. It’s my way of getting my face out there so that I don’t miss an opportunity [01:16:45] having my first brand deal. Do you know how excited I was about that?

Payman Langroudi: But did you. Did you were [01:16:50] you doing it before you were a dentist?

Sarina Kiani: No.

Payman Langroudi: So? So then you’ve come to it [01:16:55] quite recently?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Sarina Kiani: And just as a dentist only.

Payman Langroudi: But the execution [01:17:00] is so good. So did you just find that you were good at it.

Sarina Kiani: As a, you know, zombie [01:17:05] scroller? After a while you start to realise, like, trends that work. [01:17:10] You start to speak in the lingo of the social media as well, and you realise you’re [01:17:15] a millennial. Calm down. You’re not a Gen Z or whatever.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: And [01:17:20] so I think that helps too.

Payman Langroudi: So do you find TikTok easier?

Sarina Kiani: It’s a lot easier, 100%. [01:17:25]

Payman Langroudi: Easier to grow, right?

Sarina Kiani: It’s so much easier because you reach the entire world. You can have [01:17:30] one video that has, like, millions of views and, um, it’s I’m still working on it, trying [01:17:35] to build, like, a community, finding what it what is it? What is my brand? What am I trying to actually achieve? [01:17:40] And I think the ones that work really well is when I’m giving information because there’s you [01:17:45] forget how much you actually know that the general public don’t know and.

Payman Langroudi: How.

Sarina Kiani: Useful that information [01:17:50] actually can be. Yeah, some something silly that you think. Well, that’s obvious. As a dentist, [01:17:55] it’s not obvious to someone that isn’t in the dental world.

Payman Langroudi: This is what I mean about being closer to [01:18:00] being a real person than a dentist.

Sarina Kiani: I think that helps.

Payman Langroudi: But then when you [01:18:05] do it, does it? Is it are you getting sort of a bit of a high from [01:18:10] the likes and the views, or is it translating?

Sarina Kiani: I think comments. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because [01:18:15] is it translating to patients genuinely?

Sarina Kiani: I had a patient come in. It’s still slow [01:18:20] and steady for me personally right now. I’m still growing it. But I had a patient, the one that came [01:18:25] in three hours. She travelled to come and see me because I’d spoken about anxiety and [01:18:30] Dental anxiety, and I posted this review. This patient had put about, you know, non-judgmental [01:18:35] dentists where you’ve had some mental health issues that meant that you neglected [01:18:40] your mouth. And, you know, if you go to the dentist, a lot of people say that they see a lot of judgemental [01:18:45] dentists. And she came all the way just to see me because of that one post. [01:18:50]

Payman Langroudi: But, Serena, I mean, I could pull 30 dentists in front of me here, [01:18:55] and we’d all agree it’s good for marketing. Yeah, but that’s 29 [01:19:00] of them aren’t going on and posting.

Sarina Kiani: That’s because they’re taking it too serious. [01:19:05] I think that’s another thing. Like I take my job very seriously as a dentist, and everyone always says when [01:19:10] I’m in the room with you, you’re very serious, but you shouldn’t take yourself so serious. And I think on social [01:19:15] media that can come across if you’re trying to be very, you know, by the book or the GDC watching me, obviously [01:19:20] you work ethically, but you but you don’t need to be so robotic about it. I think [01:19:25] that’s the beauty of social media.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but what do you think stopping other people that they take themselves seriously. And I think that’s [01:19:30] it.

Sarina Kiani: They’re worrying too much about what people think. They’re worrying too much about. Oh, but what I said [01:19:35] might not be completely factual.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not worried about what people think of you.

Sarina Kiani: Never worried about what people think of [01:19:40] me. I’ve always worried about obviously, what my patients think and being, you know, a good team [01:19:45] member in my practice, but never putting something online and worrying too much about what people think. If [01:19:50] someone is always going to not like you and someone else is always going to like you, there’s always [01:19:55] going to be both. So if you sit there worrying so much about what people think, you’ll never be able to just [01:20:00] be yourself.

Payman Langroudi: Have you been trolled?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, of course, there’s always inappropriate [01:20:05] comments or comments.

Payman Langroudi: In your comments.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. Do you know what I do? I block them [01:20:10] or I delete them. And I think this is a you know, I’m not going to go sit on there and reply [01:20:15] to them because Tom, Dick and Harry had five minutes, you know, or are [01:20:20] bored at home and want to take the time to write a nasty comment. If I reply [01:20:25] then that says more about me. Obviously there’s time when you think yeah, your mum, but you don’t [01:20:30] write that back because you think you know what? I hope [01:20:35] that your day goes better than whatever you were going through to write me that message.

Payman Langroudi: See, [01:20:40] Rhona used to complain a lot about trolls, and then I used to think, well, she’s being oversensitive [01:20:45] here because, you know, it comes with the territory.

Sarina Kiani: They can be nasty sometimes.

Payman Langroudi: But then she showed me some and it was like, I hope [01:20:50] your parents die.

Sarina Kiani: Yes, they can be nasty.

Payman Langroudi: Well.

Sarina Kiani: They can be really nasty sometimes [01:20:55] or they can be really personal sometimes as well. And you think, oh my God, like, who are you? Is it someone I [01:21:00] know? What’s going on? But, um.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not enough of a problem to stop you from [01:21:05] doing it.

Sarina Kiani: No. Not yet. I’ll let you know when I’ve got Ronan’s following.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:21:10] I guess it’d be different. But still, I’m still interested in the fact that you’re not worried about what other dentists [01:21:15] think of you. That’s. That’s what stops a lot of people.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, I think that [01:21:20] I can’t change who I am. So if I put on a persona [01:21:25] to please you, ultimately, inevitably down the line, you’ll see that [01:21:30] that’s not me. So if I’m just being myself on social media, you’ll see that in person, too. [01:21:35] And so if you don’t like me when you see me on social media, you’re not going to like me when you see me in [01:21:40] person. So what’s the point of trying to be someone else, you know? And I think that the people that [01:21:45] know me, you know, the people on my team, people at work, they like me. They think [01:21:50] I’m a nice person. Patients think I’m a nice person. And ultimately, I think that’s all that matters. [01:21:55] I don’t need to be worrying what any other dentist think. As long as I’m, you know, [01:22:00] I’m a respectful, nice, genuine person. I don’t sit there. I don’t bitch about anyone. I don’t [01:22:05] say anything nasty about anyone. You know, there’s a lot of gossiping in dentistry that happens. [01:22:10] People love to bash other people’s work. Go and look on social media and compare and [01:22:15] and say nasty things about people’s work. I’m sure it happens to me all the [01:22:20] time or to my work. I’m sure my story gets posted to, you know, sent to someone else in [01:22:25] the DM and nasty comment is made. Do I sit there worrying about that? Absolutely not. Because what can [01:22:30] I do to stop that? That’s just that person and their insecurity. I’m not accountable for their insecurity. [01:22:35] If they want to feel better about themselves by doing that, by all means. I don’t really need to do that. Me and my friends [01:22:40] really aren’t like that. The people around me aren’t like that. So I don’t need to be like that.

Payman Langroudi: And are you only [01:22:45] tackling TikTok and Instagram, or are you looking at LinkedIn and YouTube?

Sarina Kiani: And [01:22:50] it’s definitely not YouTube. Um, I think TikTok [01:22:55] and Instagram for now, because it’s all aimed at patients. I’m not trying [01:23:00] to impress other dentists. If you look at the captions in my [01:23:05] posts, they’re aimed at people. So I’m not trying to show you the most incredible [01:23:10] onley prep that I’ve ever done with my DM and all the all the materials [01:23:15] I’ve used, which I have. I’m actually just trying to show the patient what [01:23:20] they can have done in their mouth. So it is aimed at people.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your process?

Sarina Kiani: What [01:23:25] do you mean.

Payman Langroudi: Your content creation process? Like do you sit in one day and make six, [01:23:30] seven, ten reels?

Sarina Kiani: When I do that, it doesn’t work. So [01:23:35] it’s got to be when it comes to my mind. I’ll just write it down. I’m one of those people.

Payman Langroudi: Your mind. You write it down. [01:23:40]

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. In my In My Notes app, I have a notes app full of stuff.

Payman Langroudi: At some point in the future, you execute [01:23:45] on that.

Sarina Kiani: Or maybe I’ll just do it there and then if it’s really like an urge, because I [01:23:50] find with social media, if you’re trying to make a video and it’s a bit too planned [01:23:55] out, you’re not being yourself as much, so your energy is a bit off. Whereas if you’re very [01:24:00] you know, I’m very excited. I need to make this video right now. It does come across a lot nicer as well. [01:24:05] And those are the ones that do a lot better 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Interestingly, we’ve come to the end of [01:24:10] our time. Oh, that went quick.

Sarina Kiani: That was so enjoyable.

[TRANSITION]: Thank you.

Sarina Kiani: I had the [01:24:15] best time.

Payman Langroudi: Haven’t finished yet. Haven’t finished yet?

Sarina Kiani: Oh.

Payman Langroudi: We’re going to end on the same questions. [01:24:20] Oh, yeah. We always end.

Sarina Kiani: On. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Fantasy dinner party.

Sarina Kiani: Oh! [01:24:25]

Payman Langroudi: Three guests.

Sarina Kiani: Three guests.

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive.

Sarina Kiani: Dead or [01:24:30] alive. It would have to be a female entrepreneur. 100% [01:24:35] women that I admire. [01:24:40] There’s a lot. There’s a lot of females.

Payman Langroudi: Being a woman than a man.

Sarina Kiani: In [01:24:45] what way?

Payman Langroudi: In life.

Sarina Kiani: I don’t like saying it is because I think that. [01:24:50] Then you’re saying that you’re limiting yourself because you’re a woman. Men face a lot of challenges, [01:24:55] too. Just different ones. I wouldn’t say that. No, and I wouldn’t say I wouldn’t want to [01:25:00] shout that around to young girls listening to it. She thinks, oh, life’s going to be tougher for me because I’m a girl.

Payman Langroudi: But then [01:25:05] why are we looking at female entrepreneurs? Why not just entrepreneurs?

Sarina Kiani: Because I’m a female. And so I think that I can relate [01:25:10] to their challenges more. You know, if I was a guy, I’d be like, well, I have [01:25:15] male role models. It’s just it’s just whatever you relate to. I think female [01:25:20] for me, because I’m a female. And so the challenges that they’ll go through, for example, planning when to [01:25:25] have children will be a challenge for me too. And so I think, look, if they can do it, I can [01:25:30] do it. Yeah. And I think that is what.

Payman Langroudi: Like which one comes to mind when you think female.

Sarina Kiani: Right now? Just off the top [01:25:35] of my head. Grace Beverly Hill, Beverly grace Beverly, the [01:25:40] founder of Tala and Shreddy.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Sarina Kiani: Um, she is a very educated woman [01:25:45] who went to, I think it was Oxford or Cambridge and set up [01:25:50] her brand. She talks a lot about mental health, a lot about, um, how [01:25:55] young girls can, you know, start up their businesses or what they want to achieve [01:26:00] and their brands and all these things. I think I listened to a lot of her. She has a podcast as well. [01:26:05] I listened to a lot of her, um, podcast and her You know.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know her [01:26:10] name, but the lady who did the ordinary skincare.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do [01:26:15] you know.

Sarina Kiani: Who? No.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know her name?

Sarina Kiani: I’ve got her face. But I’m very bad with names.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Go on. [01:26:20] Who’s your second guess.

Sarina Kiani: Or second guess? Dead or alive? [01:26:25] Hmm. This is tough. I genuinely am very [01:26:30] bad at this. I had a list, and then I forgot it. Very bad with names. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:26:35] go on, like, go category wise. Like female entrepreneur. What would be another category? [01:26:40]

Sarina Kiani: Do you know what the one you said is? Shah. Shah? Completely rogue. Nothing. Dental [01:26:45] Shah, the Shah of Iran would be cool.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. He’s made an appearance several times.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Has [01:26:50] he? Yeah. Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: I feel like my questions are not going to be as as intelligent as other people’s. [01:26:55] They’re going to be a little bit more.

Payman Langroudi: Did you did you know your grandfather, the general?

Sarina Kiani: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, [01:27:00] yeah I was I grew up going to Iran every summer and just hanging out [01:27:05] at his incredible house and.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Sarina Kiani: Really? Eating the pomegranates that he’d grow in his garden. [01:27:10] Yeah, it was incredible. And then when he passed away, I stopped going to Iran.

Payman Langroudi: I didn’t [01:27:15] see.

Sarina Kiani: The.

Payman Langroudi: Point anyway. Similar story for me.

Sarina Kiani: When was the last time you went?

Payman Langroudi: 12 years ago. [01:27:20] With my. After my grandma passed away.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. Did the family kind of breaks away? [01:27:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Third one. Can you think?

Sarina Kiani: Third [01:27:30] one around a dinner table? [01:27:35] I don’t know. You know, it’s tough. It [01:27:40] shouldn’t be this hard saying these.

Payman Langroudi: You know, you [01:27:45] put too much pressure on yourself that you know it’s going to be the right person, but it doesn’t.

Sarina Kiani: It’s like I’m [01:27:50] trying to think of, ah, someone from friends, maybe. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which [01:27:55] one do you like?

Sarina Kiani: Oh, what was his name? He passed away.

Payman Langroudi: Matt? No, the other guy. The other guy. [01:28:00] Chandler.

Sarina Kiani: Chandler.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. His real.

Sarina Kiani: Name? Yeah. I should know his real name. [01:28:05] Yeah. Someone funny like that. Someone light hearted.

Payman Langroudi: Like dinner party [01:28:10] fun.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, but obviously, given how he passed away, I’m. I’m guessing there’s a lot more [01:28:15] to it. And I feel like that would be nice to to talk on a deeper level with someone like [01:28:20] that. That on the outside is so funny. Making me laugh all the time, all the time, and has so [01:28:25] much going on in the inside.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting dinner party. Yeah, him and the Shah.

Sarina Kiani: So nobody [01:28:30] that loud because I think everyone’s a bit of an introvert, I’d say. Yeah. [01:28:35]

Payman Langroudi: Would you call yourself an introvert?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s funny because before [01:28:40] I met you, I thought you were this really massive extrovert.

Sarina Kiani: Everyone thinks that.

Payman Langroudi: Everyone thinks I’m.

Sarina Kiani: This.

Payman Langroudi: Weekend [01:28:45] with you at Mini Smile Makeover. I realised no, no, you’re much more quiet. [01:28:50]

Sarina Kiani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Person.

Sarina Kiani: That’s how I come across. Everyone always thinks. Oh, she must be, you know, so [01:28:55] loud. I’m in bed by 8 p.m.. I am so boring.

Payman Langroudi: Why [01:29:00] would you call yourself shy?

Sarina Kiani: No, I’m sure I’m not shy.

Payman Langroudi: I’m proper.

Sarina Kiani: Shy.

Payman Langroudi: Are you very shy?

Sarina Kiani: You [01:29:05] don’t seem shy.

Payman Langroudi: I’m very shy.

Sarina Kiani: Really very shy. I would have not thought.

Payman Langroudi: That there are people in this building I haven’t [01:29:10] been introduced to yet. And so I haven’t. I haven’t gone up to them yet. I need to be [01:29:15] introduced to people.

Sarina Kiani: Because, see, in like a Dental event. Yeah. I would [01:29:20] wouldn’t be the first to go up to someone. Hi. You know what’s there? But if they were talking to me, then I’d open up like this [01:29:25] onion. But yeah, I don’t think I’m shy, though.

Payman Langroudi: Most of the time. Karma. [01:29:30]

Sarina Kiani: Karma. Yeah, I mean, I, I’m quite. Yeah. [01:29:35] I’ve got quite a strong faith. Yeah. I’m Muslim.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. You believe?

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, [01:29:40] yeah, I believe in, you know, a higher power, 100% karma. [01:29:45] I think karma goes a little bit hand in hand. You know, if you do wrong, that things [01:29:50] will happen to you. But I don’t think it’s that black and white, you know.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:29:55] let’s get to the final question.

Sarina Kiani: Um.

Payman Langroudi: On your deathbed, many years from [01:30:00] now with your you tomorrow. Grandchildren’s grandchildren. Um. [01:30:05] Three pieces of advice.

Sarina Kiani: Ooh.

Payman Langroudi: You’d leave [01:30:10] for them in the world? What would they be?

Sarina Kiani: See, people are going to watch this and go. She’s so young. [01:30:15] Like, what advice has she got to give? No. But then what I would say to them is I. [01:30:20] Don’t worry about what people think.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: Just be yourself. What comes naturally to [01:30:25] you? It took me a long time to be myself, by the way. When I was a lot younger, [01:30:30] I would, you know, imitate other people and.

Payman Langroudi: Try and be someone else.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. Because I thought, oh, [01:30:35] I see someone. They were popular. Maybe I wanted to be a bit like them. I didn’t know who I was.

Payman Langroudi: I had [01:30:40] a super cool friend. I think I spent 5 or 6 years trying to be him. Massive isn’t it? [01:30:45] Massive, massive.

Sarina Kiani: Because you realise I don’t even like what she’s wearing. Like what? Why am I even wearing this blazer? [01:30:50] I don’t even like blazers.

Payman Langroudi: No, but that famous quote about be yourself, everyone else is taken.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah, [01:30:55] yeah yeah yeah. That’s true. Someone wrote that to me in a card once.

Payman Langroudi: To be yourself. Is that your first Your [01:31:00] first piece of advice?

Sarina Kiani: Just don’t overthink it. I tell myself [01:31:05] that today. Don’t overthink it and just do it. I’m [01:31:10] on an advert.

Payman Langroudi: One of those like, fuck it, do it.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. Don’t [01:31:15] think too much. Just do it. Just do it. And don’t take no for an answer. When you [01:31:20] want something.

Payman Langroudi: I can see that in your behaviour.

Sarina Kiani: Don’t take no for an answer. It will happen. It might just not happen in that [01:31:25] way that you want.

Payman Langroudi: I can see that in your behaviour. Yeah. I mean, like those sliding doors. Those. [01:31:30] If you hadn’t have. For the sake of the argument. Ask for that admissions tutors [01:31:35] meeting. Yeah. Or if you hadn’t turned up at that corporate mini corporate [01:31:40] with your CV, you might be you might be a totally different person [01:31:45] now. Yeah. Probably not. Probably not. But because you’d get through anyway.

[TRANSITION]: But [01:31:50] yeah. Do it maybe in a different field.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sarina Kiani: And I’d probably still meet you, but in [01:31:55] a different way. Maybe business wise.

Payman Langroudi: I’m interested in the manifestation thing. I’m gonna try.

Sarina Kiani: It. Yeah. So [01:32:00] it’s not about. Oh, okay. I want this to happen. It’s about [01:32:05] lying to yourself that this is already happening. How would I feel if I wanted [01:32:10] to be a business owner? For example, how would I feel as a business owner? What would [01:32:15] my day look like and what? How would I feel? And a big part of that is how I dress, [01:32:20] how I carry myself. All these things.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not saying it’s a supernatural thing. You’re saying it.

Sarina Kiani: Actually. [01:32:25]

Payman Langroudi: Works out that way because you’re because.

Sarina Kiani: You start doing it today. You’re already doing it today. [01:32:30] So if I said to myself, and I did this last year, I said I wanted to be I wanted [01:32:35] to manage stress a lot better at work because it can be quite stressful. I started [01:32:40] managing stress at work by telling myself, you know, okay, I can feel the stress coming [01:32:45] on. I can calm down, calm down, peaceful. How would the type of person I want [01:32:50] to be react in this situation and just react that way now and then, slowly, [01:32:55] slowly. You just become that person. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, give it a go.

Sarina Kiani: Yeah. [01:33:00]

Payman Langroudi: International DJ. Yeah. Don’t know anything [01:33:05] about music. Yeah. Amazing. Thank you so much for coming.

Sarina Kiani: Thank you so much for having me. It’s been such a pleasure. [01:33:10]

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [01:33:15] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:33:20] Your hosts, Payman Langroudi [01:33:25] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, [01:33:30] you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually [01:33:35] sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m [01:33:40] assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [01:33:45] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it [01:33:50] too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.