Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] Enlightened Online Training.com to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time whitening Underwhelms try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get [00:00:30] to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:00:40] Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome wiggler [00:00:45] on to the podcast. Barb, I’ve known you for years and years. Absolutely, yeah, it must be [00:00:50] 15 years by now. Would have thought so. Yeah, well, longer, maybe longer actually. Originally a b [00:00:55] c d stuff. Yeah. So that was. Oh It’s above. Above. [00:01:00] It’s got two practices right now. Natural smiles in both Leicester and Corby. [00:01:05] Yes. And I often tell this story in your absence, but I’ve been to a lot [00:01:10] of practices a good thousand and the, the, the [00:01:15] welcome I got at your Leicester practice, I don’t think [00:01:20] I’ve ever had as good a welcome as that anywhere. And you can imagine the different types [00:01:25] of responses that I’ve had when I turn up sometimes. And no [00:01:30] one even looks up. Yeah. Happens. Yeah. And I don’t blame the people sometimes, [00:01:35] you know, sometimes not enough humans. Right. Not enough staff, you know, and you know, someone’s busy [00:01:40] typing or something. And I’m standing there and then maybe they’ll look up quickly and then I’ll say, I’m [00:01:45] Langroudi from enlightened. And they just sort of point to somewhere to sit down, whereas [00:01:50] in natural smiles. Listen, I don’t know if I came at a particular time where you had particularly brilliant [00:01:55] staff or whatever it was. Yeah, but it was years ago.

Payman Langroudi: Number one. [00:02:00] I mean, nowadays everyone’s on to this. Yeah. But years ago, it was a good I’m [00:02:05] thinking maybe eight years ago I would about way before, soon after we’d [00:02:10] opened. Yeah. Way before Covid. And someone jumped up and opened the door for [00:02:15] me. Doctor Langroudi. We’ve been expecting you. How are you? What kind of coffee [00:02:20] would you like? Let me sit you down here. I was like, what a place. And I wasn’t expecting [00:02:25] it in Leicester, to tell you the truth. And suddenly amazing coffee [00:02:30] turned up like, amazing. Better than Starbucks coffee showed it. And it was really [00:02:35] refreshing. Yeah. And the. The decor of the place, I [00:02:40] mean, above and beyond. It was something back then. I mean, I don’t know whether you’ve done it up now or [00:02:45] whatever it is. But back then it was really state of the art, beautiful, minimalist [00:02:50] kind of looking place. And I just thought, this guy is on another like another, [00:02:55] another stream to to most other dentists. Tell me, tell me, tell [00:03:00] me. You know what? What were you thinking? Were you. Were you thinking what people [00:03:05] think nowadays? Where they go? Oh, I’ve had a great experience in the four four seasons in Abu [00:03:10] Dhabi. I’m going to try and recreate that here. Well, firstly.

Bhavnish Waghela: Thank you for inviting me. That’s [00:03:15] the first thing. Um, I think the story goes back to, um. [00:03:20] When we opened our Corby practice. [00:03:25]

Payman Langroudi: Was that first.

Bhavnish Waghela: That was first. So that was to my daughter’s now 18. So that was 2007. [00:03:30] Um, it was a private squat. [00:03:35] I had NHS practice, which I was.

Payman Langroudi: Before.

Bhavnish Waghela: That, before that. And I basically [00:03:40] it was a choice of do we move the NHS to a larger premises. New [00:03:45] contract had just come in and I was like, oh, do I like this contract, do I, do I what do I do, do I grow [00:03:50] it had a property. Shall I use that and move everything [00:03:55] to it or not. And we thought let’s just separate the two. So we did. And I’d [00:04:00] heard of Paddy Lund at the time.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: And I read his book. [00:04:05] Never met him. Um, and some of the things from that, the non-critical, [00:04:10] critical, non-essential side of things. And at the time, I remember going [00:04:15] to what was then pétrus the restaurant. The restaurant. Yeah. And [00:04:20] had a great meal. Just my wife and I. And [00:04:25] we’d gone for a lunch, but we’d ended up eating and staying. [00:04:30] Firstly with vegetarian. No eggs. Strict. And they’d [00:04:35] catered for us. That was over and above. And they didn’t. [00:04:40] There was no hurry to leave. We’d extended our welcome, I felt. [00:04:45] I didn’t feel. But they. I knew I had till about 6:00. Um. [00:04:50] And they just treated us really, really well. And something that I thought of at the time [00:04:55] was this is how dentistry should be done.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Bhavnish Waghela: Um. Michelin starred dentistry [00:05:00] be treated as a family member, be treated as a really [00:05:05] close friend. Um, and that little attention to detail. [00:05:10] So we did that with our, with the Corby. And then when [00:05:15] we opened Leicester we, we redid it.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you did it okay. It [00:05:20] looks good. Tell me about the training process that it takes to get [00:05:25] that level of, you know, service from your team.

Bhavnish Waghela: So [00:05:30] it was a joint effort. Um, obviously, I’m, I usually wear the clinical hat and my wife [00:05:35] and my, my practice manager, Carol Boyd, who’s from my Corby practice. Yeah. [00:05:40] Uh, we all work as a team, and she’s well travelled. [00:05:45] We’re well travelled, and we experience things from around the world, and we try and bring them to [00:05:50] the practice. So there are certain things that we had in our playbook. We wanted people to [00:05:55] be welcomed as they come in. We acknowledge eye contact is important. We acknowledge, [00:06:00] uh, treating somebody in the tone of voice. You [00:06:05] know, communication is not just what you say, how you say.

Payman Langroudi: It.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. Um, and how you say it’s even more important [00:06:10] than what you say. Yeah. So, um, it was firstly [00:06:15] a selection process in terms because obviously with a squat it was finding [00:06:20] the right person people. Um, and then [00:06:25] we didn’t have anybody bar one from a Dental background. [00:06:30] Um, only on purpose. So only one of the people that we had was had a dental background because [00:06:35] she was a TCO. So we had to have we wanted to have that, but reception was non dental. [00:06:40] Um, so that was the crux of it. Yeah. So [00:06:45] yeah that really helps. And then it was just because it was a squat. We had time during the [00:06:50] build of you know, I tend to learn from listening [00:06:55] rather than reading, so I’ll send them. I remember, I think [00:07:00] Chris Barrows introduced me to a video of, uh, the [00:07:05] Four Seasons or Ritz Carlton CEO talking about how to treat members [00:07:10] of the team and therefore how you treat the staff. So I sent the team there and we’d go through that and discuss that [00:07:15] and then try and embellish our patient journey that way. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:07:20] it must take constant retraining and sort of dotting [00:07:25] the i’s and crossing the T’s. I mean, it’s not a one time thing, is it, that.

Bhavnish Waghela: No, I think because we all develop, [00:07:30] don’t we? You know, I think, as you said quite rightly, back then, we [00:07:35] were very there were very few of us in dentistry doing that. And now everybody [00:07:40] seems to be doing that, which is great because ultimately who benefits the patients. [00:07:45] So yeah, it’s always a case of revisiting our journey, Revisiting how [00:07:50] we wear the touch points are with patients that really, really makes a difference.

Payman Langroudi: I think [00:07:55] I remember back then thinking the only other time I’d noticed that level of service [00:08:00] in a non West End practice, because in Western practice it’s quite easy. There’s so few humans [00:08:05] that you can pull it off. Right. Um but in a non West end setting [00:08:10] was Rahul’s practice in Hartford where again [00:08:15] way ahead of their time. It was just another feeling. You know, I think Laura Horton [00:08:20] was probably there at the time.

Bhavnish Waghela: Well, interestingly, we had used Laura Horton probably about [00:08:25] seven years when Laura had started doing her TCO training. We were one [00:08:30] of the first practices to have a come in and train us at the Corby practice. Oh really? So [00:08:35] we’d had that input prior to opening and then obviously changing [00:08:40] our workflow in Corby and then hence in Leicester as well.

Payman Langroudi: And so what ended [00:08:45] up happening to that NHS practice you sell it.

Bhavnish Waghela: So I sold it basically. Um, it was like [00:08:50] I was struggling because ultimately I sort of shot myself in the foot because I gave the patients [00:08:55] a choice. You can see me on the NHS or you can see me privately. And if anyone with the right mind, [00:09:00] they’re not going to see me privately. So what we then did was we said, okay, I will go private. [00:09:05] If you want to see me, you’ll have to see me privately here. And we had an associate who stayed on at [00:09:10] the NHS practice, and then we just sold it about a year later.

Payman Langroudi: And why? [00:09:15] What was the sort of the driver were you thinking? I want to fully focus on private dentistry.

Bhavnish Waghela: I [00:09:20] think, you know, we had I was in because it was really it was a squat [00:09:25] practice. So very few patients in the early. Yeah, sort of seven, eight months. Um, [00:09:30] so I was working with two hats on. So one day I’d be doing this and sometimes it would because [00:09:35] there were literally a mile and two miles a mile apart.

Payman Langroudi: Two patients.

Bhavnish Waghela: So the patients [00:09:40] could move in the same town. Um, and I would literally go to the NHS in the morning [00:09:45] and sometimes the private in the in the afternoon, and personally, some [00:09:50] will disagree. I don’t think it is possible for one person to do [00:09:55] both. I don’t think it works.

Payman Langroudi: I think I agree to do both [00:10:00] well.

Bhavnish Waghela: To do both well. So either you do it and the thing is this is pre current contract [00:10:05] or when I was doing NHS. Yeah to do NHS. Well the [00:10:10] old contract worked well. The new contract makes it more difficult because [00:10:15] of the restrictions and because of the hands being tied. But I feel even from a treatment planning point of [00:10:20] view, um, you know, quite a lot of our associates are in that halfway [00:10:25] house where they’re sort of coming out of NHS and into private dentistry, [00:10:30] and we like to sort of coach them in how to treatment plan. And [00:10:35] I find it extremely difficult to do both. I found it extremely difficult to as I said, right now we’re going to sell the NHS [00:10:40] and I can just focus on doing what I feel is right for my patients.

Payman Langroudi: And as far as [00:10:45] top tips, because both of them are squats, right? Yes. Top tips for a squat. I mean, it’s becoming [00:10:50] much more fashionable now to do squats because of the high price of practices, I [00:10:55] guess. But it’s a it’s a totally different way of working. I mean, number one, that first, [00:11:00] like you said, 7 or 8 months of working capital just to stay afloat. [00:11:05] Right?

Bhavnish Waghela: Yes, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: I think a lot of people don’t don’t remember that, you know, and I’d [00:11:10] say for anyone doing a business plan, I’m no expert on, on Excel sheets, but but, [00:11:15] you know, be very negative and very pessimistic about what’s going to happen [00:11:20] and have a good amount of money available just to get through that. First, I’d [00:11:25] say year and a half, just to get, you know, just to make it really difficult. Yeah. Um, [00:11:30] you know, be pessimistic 100%. Yeah. But then what else? I mean, [00:11:35] okay, count the pennies. Count the.

Bhavnish Waghela: Pennies.

Payman Langroudi: I well, it’s weird counting pennies [00:11:40] because you’re making this beautiful place that costs money, right?

Bhavnish Waghela: I think you all. I don’t think it’s possible [00:11:45] to. I’ll be quite honest. You know, I will [00:11:50] end even when it comes to buying a flippin watch. I will go to buy something [00:11:55] and end up spending more than my anticipated. So I did the same thing with the practice. Both. Both [00:12:00] practices. Um. I’m a sucker for sales. Um, so therefore. [00:12:05] And I like gadgets, so therefore I end up spending more than I should. But [00:12:10] now it’s a case of I’ve spent it. Um, and sometimes, I [00:12:15] mean, with the first one I did shortcuts. You know, I knew a friend of a friend who could do my plumbing rather [00:12:20] than getting everything to one builder at the time, which I should have done. I made shortcuts to save [00:12:25] corners. The second one, I didn’t do that. So second one, everything went to one one contractor. [00:12:30] And that made such a difference. Uh, so try not to take [00:12:35] shortcuts in the building works. I think it’s very easy to cut [00:12:40] corners financially Lee in the way a practice equipment, [00:12:45] certain equipment I you know I bought all singing, all dancing Sirona [00:12:50] chairs. Do I need them? No. Does it make me more efficient? [00:12:55] No. Do patients realise I don’t think my a deck chair in [00:13:00] my Corby practice? Patients prefer I get more comments about that than I do about comfortable.

Bhavnish Waghela: Comfortable? Absolutely. [00:13:05] So we tend to see things from our point of view rather than the patient’s point of view. Yeah. [00:13:10] So with certain things. So that’s probably where I would say that would be an area [00:13:15] where one could save, uh, business planning. When I open my copy practice, my business plan [00:13:20] was that where’s the wind going? What can I do? Banks were lending, I [00:13:25] had cash. So it was so much easier with the second one. More [00:13:30] competition. Uh, city. So very different in terms of [00:13:35] marketing budget, in terms of that initial cash to keep things [00:13:40] Going, um, but something that, [00:13:45] uh, and I think being a little bit more intuitive or ingenious, [00:13:50] should I say, with regards to marketing, um, or even how you [00:13:55] get cash coming in quickly. I had a conversation with Zach at the time, [00:14:00] and he was telling me how as an implant dentist, what he was doing is, [00:14:05] was sort of, uh, he was basically giving an implant. If you pay [00:14:10] for the implant, you get the crown for free. So you discount it, but you have to pay in full. [00:14:15] So that meant in the first sort of few months, we had patients paying [00:14:20] chunks of cash. Uh.

Payman Langroudi: It just it’s the lifeblood.

Bhavnish Waghela: Isn’t the lifeblood. [00:14:25] Exactly. Cash flow was, was was always a challenge and always will be a challenge in some practices. [00:14:30] Um, but I don’t think I really don’t think a [00:14:35] squat practice is for everybody.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Bhavnish Waghela: Um. I [00:14:40] think the idea of a squat. What people tend to do is they do [00:14:45] the maths. Oh, I can buy this one for this much, or I can set it up for less [00:14:50] than that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: And I think the pain points in both are different [00:14:55] because they are there for sure. But I think theoretically I mean I my [00:15:00] NHS one was not a squat obviously. Um, and that was so much easier. [00:15:05]

Payman Langroudi: So you probably haven’t got appetite for it. But let’s say you were going to open a third practice. [00:15:10] Now would you buy an existing business?

Bhavnish Waghela: I probably would. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Just to get you [00:15:15] past the initial idea of pain.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. Yeah. I would buy in. I would buy [00:15:20] an existing concern, which is doing well financially, which has [00:15:25] potential scope. Yeah. Yeah. Now that might be chair time scope. It might be physical scope. [00:15:30]

Payman Langroudi: Building scope.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah, it might be something else.

Payman Langroudi: Something going on.

Bhavnish Waghela: Right. Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:15:35] look, when I came to see you, I was really taken. One thing that kept sticking in my [00:15:40] mind was this guy is like a linchpin in Leicester. Like, [00:15:45] it felt like, you know, everyone or you know that a lot of the movers and shakers, [00:15:50] people who own what it was chains of things, chains of [00:15:55] petrol stations or something, something like that. And I remember you, I remember saying to you, oh, where’s [00:16:00] the best Indian restaurant? And you were like, oh, well, my friend owns all of them, and they’re there. And you just knew. [00:16:05] You knew the people. Yes. How important was that compared [00:16:10] to, you know, the way people think about it is I need this much money for marketing. I’m going to do some Google [00:16:15] ads and Facebook ads. You know, like I’d say it’s super, in your case, super [00:16:20] important.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. So my story is slightly different. Yeah. Um, I belong [00:16:25] to a Hindu sect, and we have our European headquarters [00:16:30] at the Neasden Temple, which some people have probably seen. Some of you may have seen.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’ve been there. Beautiful.

Bhavnish Waghela: So, [00:16:35] um, We have a guru and at the time of opening [00:16:40] the Leicester practice, we have a system where we all, if we’ve got a [00:16:45] tech we had, we were opening a temple in Leicester, really nice temple, large square footage [00:16:50] and I was part of the fundraising team and as a as an element of fundraising, [00:16:55] we all donate a figure to the temple. The thing off. Yes. [00:17:00] And I had paid my commitment. So [00:17:05] I had written a little note to my guru, who was in India at the time, and I said, [00:17:10] I’ve paid this. I have a business dental practice. [00:17:15] He knows he knows me quite well, and I’m thinking of leaving dentistry [00:17:20] and going into something else because I’ve had enough. Um, and [00:17:25] also in the same thing, it was, uh, should I donate some more? She [00:17:30] didn’t say donate more. His. He. In fact, there was a monk who happened to [00:17:35] be there. So they rang and they said, right, speak to him. And he said, open a practice in Leicester. I’m like, [00:17:40] God, you’ve just. And with me and my faith, I’ll do whatever [00:17:45] he says. There was no intention of doing a practice in Leicester.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I.

Bhavnish Waghela: See. So that [00:17:50] was the driver. The last time I had asked him a question about [00:17:55] something personally, it was about moving out the country. And [00:18:00] this was the third time I had asked him. And that third time I’d asked him, [00:18:05] which was sort of 2004 or something like that. He said, don’t [00:18:10] ask me again. Stay in Leicester. And there’s obviously something in it for, for, for me in that. [00:18:15] So when he said open a practice in Leicester I was like, okay, fine, we’ll start looking. [00:18:20] So we saw a few existing concerns, not much going on. And then the premises [00:18:25] that we have, um, is a retail two shops.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What was it before? [00:18:30]

Bhavnish Waghela: It was a mobile phone shop, but no, it was, it was more than a mobile phone shop, [00:18:35] though. Yeah, it was a mobile phone shop. But also they were the they were the first BlackBerry [00:18:40] centre in the UK. And when they moved from there to where [00:18:45] they are currently, it was the largest provider of e phone contracts in Europe, [00:18:50] in UK. So very, very large in terms of space as well for [00:18:55] us. So we have upstairs we have the whole building. Um and downstairs is the dental practice, upstairs is space [00:19:00] to do whatever with. Um so in terms of opening in Leicester. [00:19:05] Yeah, we have a lot of connections. I’ve been there for since nine. Yeah, pretty much. So schooling, [00:19:10] friends, temple, social life, in-laws, parents, [00:19:15] everybody.

Payman Langroudi: I’m interested in the faith point here in two [00:19:20] different ways. If you, for instance, when you ask this question and [00:19:25] this person says do X, do you unquestioningly [00:19:30] do X thinking this guy is a experienced human. [00:19:35] Or do you really think there’s some sort of supernatural? He’s he’s [00:19:40] got the answer. Number one. And number two. I bet [00:19:45] fully believing that this is good advice means that it’s almost like a [00:19:50] self-fulfilling prophecy, right? Because every time something’s going wrong, there’s something in your head goes. [00:19:55] But this was the advice I was given. So you push through challenges, you [00:20:00] know, you make bigger plans, knowing, thinking that it’s going to go right. So I’m interested [00:20:05] in, you know, your faith system here. And obviously, you know, all this everything I’m telling you, you know, [00:20:10] like, so are there times where you ever doubt it? Yes.

Bhavnish Waghela: I mean, [00:20:15] okay, so the answer to your first question is there’s an element of both. Firstly, our [00:20:20] guru who passed away in 2016. Sorry. [00:20:25] Um, we have uh, so our guru will announce [00:20:30] a the next one, a successor prior to them passing away. But [00:20:35] no one knows who it is and it’s sealed. So it’s a very large organisation. Um, [00:20:40] we just recently opened a temple. We we opened the world’s largest [00:20:45] Hindu temple in new Jersey on 210 acres. We’ve opened. Last year I [00:20:50] was there for the opening, a Hindu temple traditionally built in Abu Dhabi, [00:20:55] which some of our colleagues have been to. Um, so, you know, we’re good like that and we [00:21:00] do a lot of good for the community.

Payman Langroudi: So when you say guru, this is the global leader of that whole [00:21:05] organisation. Correct? How do you know him so well? Family.

Bhavnish Waghela: So I’ve been going to the temple as [00:21:10] as a child since I was about ten. Um, I [00:21:15] also went to become a monk myself. So after A-levels. So [00:21:20] around the A-level time, I thought, I don’t wanna do this, I want to become a monk. And my dad said, because [00:21:25] with with being a monk, you have the opportunity. Like getting married. Not [00:21:30] all marriages work. So in a similar way, not all monk hoods work. So it [00:21:35] was a case of, right, you’re going to become a monk. There is a bit of a stigma if you do come back, [00:21:40] but ultimately that’s your that’s your choice. So my dad said to me, if you go, I want you to get a degree [00:21:45] before you go or get some. Because if you do come back and you haven’t got anything, then [00:21:50] you’ve got nothing to fall back on. So between A-levels [00:21:55] and starting uni, I thought, let’s check it out. So we have a little we have a village in India. [00:22:00] Population of 600 people. That’s our global training centre for monks [00:22:05] went there. You have to wake up at 4:00. You have to then, you know, [00:22:10] do your daily things.

Payman Langroudi: Pray all.

Bhavnish Waghela: Day. Pray? No. You [00:22:15] are given a timetable. The timetable would consist of that. We have [00:22:20] a sow cows. So you go and clean the cows out. You feed the cows, [00:22:25] then you go and do cooking. You then maybe doing a scriptural [00:22:30] learning. You then have to read learn because I can’t. I could read [00:22:35] some Gujarati so I could read and write basic. So now then they teach [00:22:40] you, then Sanskrit and then Hindu philosophy, Western philosophy, all this sort of stuff. And [00:22:45] then it was quite a lot. And the most important thing is you have to cut ties [00:22:50] with family. Oh, like cut when you actually became [00:22:55] ordained, become ordained as a monk. And that was challenging. So I did that for 4 or [00:23:00] 5 weeks and said, no, this isn’t for me. So I came back. So as a result of all of these [00:23:05] historical events, events, I know our guru really well and [00:23:10] he knows me quite well. So, um, it’s a 1 to 1 type situation. [00:23:15]

Payman Langroudi: When you ask. Yes. And when he says, how much of that would you say is divine intervention [00:23:20] and how much of that would you say? He’s a very experienced person. He’s been asked lots of questions.

Bhavnish Waghela: I’d say. I’d say [00:23:25] about 70, 30, 3070 of it for me is divine and 30% [00:23:30] is experienced because he has. He gets I mean, in his life’s [00:23:35] time, he had written 750,000 letters.

Payman Langroudi: Ou. [00:23:40]

Bhavnish Waghela: Replied to from people asking him all sorts of questions [00:23:45] may not be even nothing, you know, whatever they may be. He’s visited hundreds of thousands, hundreds [00:23:50] and something thousand homes. He was guru from 1971 to when he passed away. [00:23:55] So, you know very well travelled. Um, so.

Payman Langroudi: Then. Okay, so then he says, do it. Then this [00:24:00] thing I’m saying about the self-belief you have when someone says that, did that play a role, is [00:24:05] that where you would turn when things were really bad or. Yes.

Bhavnish Waghela: Because again, going back to our [00:24:10] the philosophy in our sect and Hinduism is God [00:24:15] does everything for a reason. Now if you just think about that one fact, if you truly [00:24:20] believe that, then come what may, even if I’m having [00:24:25] a bad time.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a.

Bhavnish Waghela: Reason. It’s a reason [00:24:30] for it. If I’m having a great time, I’m having gratitude to him or [00:24:35] them. So therefore, uh, in times of strife [00:24:40] or in times of good, there’s always a, uh, belief [00:24:45] that this is for me and my my betterment.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t have to answer this. Yeah, but when [00:24:50] is it that you’ve most questioned your faith?

Bhavnish Waghela: Oh. [00:24:55] Actually, I [00:25:00] would probably say why. You know, I know [00:25:05] that. I know the theory. The theory is that God does things for me and my family. [00:25:10]

Payman Langroudi: Even when in mysterious ways.

Bhavnish Waghela: Mysterious ways. But when things aren’t right, [00:25:15] when things are going, are not going to plan. You think, why? Why me? And I [00:25:20] think that’s quite normal.

Payman Langroudi: When was.

Bhavnish Waghela: That? Um. So [00:25:25] soon after we opened Leicester, I said, like I said, [00:25:30] my my guru was the reason why we opened it to some extent. Yeah, yeah. Um, we opened [00:25:35] and it was like, oh, this isn’t as easy as I thought. Last time I did a squat, it was easy. This time it’s not [00:25:40] as easy. And that was you know, it’s stressful at times because there’s a lot more competition. [00:25:45] And you think I am doing what you ask me? Why is this not happening? That kind of thing. [00:25:50]

Payman Langroudi: And so cash flow crisis and things.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. It happens. Um, [00:25:55] and the challenges we have, you know, from an accounting point of view, they’re separate businesses. And so [00:26:00] it’s difficult to sort of transfer transfer from this or that or a third business or whatever it may be. So yeah. [00:26:05]

Payman Langroudi: But and how do you feel? How come you haven’t gone to three and four and six. Are you content with [00:26:10] two?

Bhavnish Waghela: It’s very interesting. All my friends, like you said earlier, you know, a lot of my friends [00:26:15] are, uh, multiple serial businesses. So, you know. [00:26:20]

Payman Langroudi: Hundreds of things.

Bhavnish Waghela: Chains of things? Yeah. Um, and.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:26:25] expect you could get access to cash, right?

Bhavnish Waghela: Of course I can.

Payman Langroudi: Like, you could raise £5 million tomorrow [00:26:30] if you wanted to.

Bhavnish Waghela: Easily. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what’s made you not?

Bhavnish Waghela: And it’s a case of I’m not [00:26:35] in it for the money. I don’t need, I don’t feel the money is my driver. Okay. [00:26:40] Um, I am comfortable. I have what we need. Um. I [00:26:45] am looking after the future, my family, and that’s all taken care of. Money’s [00:26:50] there, and money is accessible. However, I feel that I [00:26:55] am. There’s more to me than just the dentistry. [00:27:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: So there’s my the temple side of things. Yeah. My voluntary work [00:27:05] for that. Um, and as a parent, as a family man, I [00:27:10] think sometimes what.

Payman Langroudi: Happens is you.

Bhavnish Waghela: Spend time is spent with with with with them is more important. I’d rather [00:27:15] have time at home than at work.

Payman Langroudi: I like that. How old are your kids? [00:27:20]

Bhavnish Waghela: I’ve got one daughter. She’s 18, going through A-levels now. She had a maths mock today.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:27:25] yeah. Mine too. Mine too. Same age right? Yeah. What do you want to [00:27:30] do?

Bhavnish Waghela: Do you want to do architecture?

Payman Langroudi: Did you, did you want it to be a dentist?

Bhavnish Waghela: No.

Payman Langroudi: Like not. Not. Did you tell her to? [00:27:35]

Bhavnish Waghela: I didn’t want her to be a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Why not? It looks like. Seem to me as one of the most [00:27:40] successful dentists I know.

Bhavnish Waghela: I think I think the challenge. Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: Define [00:27:45] success how you like. Yeah, but I define it as someone who loves their job, good at their job, [00:27:50] and, you know, is living a good life. You seem you seem like [00:27:55] you’re crossing those those things, right? Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: I’m fortunate that I am. Yes, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: So then [00:28:00] why wouldn’t you want that for your daughter?

Bhavnish Waghela: Because I think what I find the biggest pain point for me is, [00:28:05] um, the business is reliant to some extent on me. [00:28:10] Yeah. If I want to. I’m not the kind of person that [00:28:15] will my failings or will go on holiday tomorrow. I will not [00:28:20] counsel patients at short notice. I don’t like doing that. I don’t like that happening to me. [00:28:25] So I like to live by those rules that I want people to live by with me. So [00:28:30] one of the things that I don’t like is I’m not able to live a semi-nomadic [00:28:35] life. Oh, I can’t work from home as easily as I would love to. And I like I’d [00:28:40] like for my daughter to have that independence geographically.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [00:28:45] it. That’s a good point.

Bhavnish Waghela: That’s it. That’s the one thing.

Payman Langroudi: Because, you know, I stopped practising [00:28:50] in 2012 completely. [00:28:55] And when you fully stop, you realise the things you used to love about [00:29:00] it and the things that you used to hate about it. And I used to love [00:29:05] humans. People don’t meet that many people these days. Right? But the thing that I [00:29:10] hated was what you just said. Turning up, having to turn, having to turn up. Yeah, I was [00:29:15] turning up. Turning up. Right now I’m turning up today. Yeah. It’s the having to having to turn up the relentless [00:29:20] nature of that in.

Bhavnish Waghela: My social circle. We meet regularly in [00:29:25] Leicester.

Payman Langroudi: Your buddies?

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah, yeah. And none of them have [00:29:30] to be, you know, if on a weekday we go out and I [00:29:35] have got home at later than I want to. Yeah, I have to [00:29:40] be in clinic ready to for the show to start come what may. [00:29:45] Every. They don’t have that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. So and I envy that to some extent. [00:29:50]

Payman Langroudi: It’s an interesting point man. It’s an interesting point. Let’s get back to your childhood. [00:29:55] Yes. What made you even look at dentistry in the first place? What kind of kid were you? Were you, like, a [00:30:00] studious?

Bhavnish Waghela: I was quite studious. I was very, I mean, strict parental [00:30:05] upbringing. Um, we lived in an area in, in Leicester called Oadby, [00:30:10] and I remember being. So I’m born in Africa, my parents about, [00:30:15] uh, Nairobi, Dar es Salaam. We lived in lived in Nairobi, so born in Dar es Salaam, moved to Nairobi, moved here when I was [00:30:20] about 3 or 4. Um, and then my dad was [00:30:25] we moved for economic purposes. My dad got a job here, so he [00:30:30] was working. I was schooling, and it was very much [00:30:35] a case of we are away from the Indian culture. We need to keep strict [00:30:40] Indian values, which which we did.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Sometimes even more strict than back home. Right. It’s [00:30:45] almost like.

Bhavnish Waghela: A.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, overcompensating thing.

Bhavnish Waghela: Overcompensating. Yeah. But the funny thing was that I [00:30:50] was one the area that we lived in just happened to be a very non-Indian [00:30:55] area. So I was one of three brown faces in the school.

Payman Langroudi: Was it Leicester.

Bhavnish Waghela: Leicester in Oadby [00:31:00] to get bullied a lot? Uh-uh, um, my dad made me do martial arts and I did loads [00:31:05] of taekwondo and really good. And there was a lot of sports, but [00:31:10] purely martial arts. Um, and then, um, with regards to dentistry, [00:31:15] I dentistry. I was quite studious, so I wanted to sort of pursue, you know, the traditional medicine, [00:31:20] law, dentistry in those days. Um, and my dad [00:31:25] didn’t, wasn’t pushing me into anything or parents weren’t. But again, going back [00:31:30] to the temple, we had some elders in our temple. Elders meaning someone [00:31:35] older than me, not old, old people. And they were recently qualified doctors [00:31:40] who were doing show jobs and stuff like that. Um, and they sort of put [00:31:45] me off doing medicine, basically.

Payman Langroudi: Junior doctors. Right?

Bhavnish Waghela: Totally put me off. So I [00:31:50] said, fine, I’ll do dentistry because it was the next best thing in a way. Um, so hence that’s why I did dentistry. [00:31:55] I fell into that. And also my dad, my dad had a business at the time, part time, where his [00:32:00] business partner’s son was a dentist. And I sort of saw him have a, you [00:32:05] know, a good life. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: What did your dad do?

Bhavnish Waghela: So he was a graphic designer. Um, [00:32:10] but he went into project management for a design company, mainly doing [00:32:15] point of sales for Rolex and car watch brands and jewellery [00:32:20] brands.

Payman Langroudi: In that generation that got up from East Africa. Africa [00:32:25] in general and came here. There’s something about that generation. The [00:32:30] ones that did that. Yes. Yeah. Because Africa is an interesting place in itself. [00:32:35] There’s a there’s a, there’s a can do thing about making it in Africa. [00:32:40] And then they brought that here. Yeah. And put the same. And I think there’s so many people [00:32:45] I’ve talked to good friends, people I went to school with as well that that generation just [00:32:50] had. It’s almost like, you know, I don’t know if you’ve seen Gary. Gary Vee. Yes. He talks about sort of the [00:32:55] the benefit of being an immigrant. Yeah. You know, the it’s an interesting [00:33:00] thing. So all right you decide dentistry. You turn up first day back. [00:33:05] Which year was it?

Bhavnish Waghela: 1992.

Payman Langroudi: Guys. Kings or [00:33:10] kings itself? Not guys.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So the same year as me?

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: 1990. [00:33:15] So what was your first day? Big city.

Bhavnish Waghela: First day. Big. I hated [00:33:20] it. Did you? I absolutely hated it for the reason. That one. I had just come back from India because, like [00:33:25] I said, I wanted to become a monk.

Payman Langroudi: You were monk.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah, yeah. Um, I was alien because [00:33:30] of that. Because I had mentally conditioned. I used to be strict vegetarian. In our sect, we don’t [00:33:35] don’t drink alcohol. We have no onions, no garlic. So it’s a case of. [00:33:40]

Payman Langroudi: Is it Jain?

Bhavnish Waghela: So it’s not it’s Swaminarayan.

Payman Langroudi: Similar.

Bhavnish Waghela: But in terms of the food. Yeah. Because everything [00:33:45] has an effect on it. You are what you eat kind of thing. Um, and then I [00:33:50] was in this town or this city, which was so much bigger, and obviously I’d been to London, but every time [00:33:55] I’d been to London, it was with my parents, or it was with people from the temple. So it was always Neasden, and [00:34:00] now I’m by myself living. I had a for some reason I missed my halls [00:34:05] application, so I was staying in Tooting Bec because I needed somewhere [00:34:10] that was That was self-catering.

Payman Langroudi: Miles away from stranded miles and miles.

Bhavnish Waghela: Away. Miles [00:34:15] away. It was like, I can’t remember what bus it was, but.

Payman Langroudi: It was self-catering for the night.

Bhavnish Waghela: For the food [00:34:20] purposes. So, um, that was bad.

Payman Langroudi: And did you find the course [00:34:25] a struggle? Everyone does to some extent.

Bhavnish Waghela: Initially, yes, because I didn’t do biology at A-level, so. So [00:34:30] it was like, oh my God, I the first time I failed an exam was or first time I had to reset [00:34:35] an exam was biochem.

Payman Langroudi: You know Sarge, you know Sarge, my partner, [00:34:40] we were sitting next to each other in, um, Cardiff and we looked down this microscope [00:34:45] and he goes, well, that’s muscle, isn’t it? And I was like, well, how do you know that’s muscle? [00:34:50] And he and his only thing he could say is I just do. Yeah. You know. And now I get it [00:34:55] in a way. Now I get it, you know, the way muscle looks. Yeah, yeah. But back then I was like, I just could not believe [00:35:00] that that was his answer. I just do.

Bhavnish Waghela: I totally get.

Payman Langroudi: It. Remedial [00:35:05] classes for biology A-level people who hadn’t done biology A-level.

Bhavnish Waghela: Okay. We didn’t have that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:35:10] I found it so hard, I found it.

Bhavnish Waghela: I found that a struggle.

Payman Langroudi: Um, did you take [00:35:15] to the clinical better?

Bhavnish Waghela: 100%. I, I also play the the Indian [00:35:20] drums. The tabla. Oh, yeah. And my dad was my. So my dad’s degree was fine art. So we’re quite an artistic [00:35:25] family. Aha. Um, so I’m quite good with my hands. Yeah. And therefore, the [00:35:30] clinical side of things was so much easier.

Payman Langroudi: And did you find a sort of a clique of Indians [00:35:35] that you got into? Yeah. That’s right.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. We still keep in touch. One of my best mates from Uni [00:35:40] Maori, he’s in Melbourne. Neera was in the same year as me. Anoop? Yeah. Anoop was. You’re [00:35:45] above me. Tiff was Europe. So that whole cohort, uh, we know quite well. I know quite well. [00:35:50] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then five years went by. Who was your first ever boss?

Bhavnish Waghela: So [00:35:55] I did, uh, in. Yeah. First [00:36:00] year I did it in a place called Horncastle, which is where it’s basically 20 miles [00:36:05] from Skegness. Oh, it’s a it’s a it’s a really small [00:36:10] town where there were two dental practices. The nearest one was Lincolnshire. Sorry, [00:36:15] Lincoln. Yeah. So there was no support clinically. My. My trainer [00:36:20] was brilliant. Um. Very supportive. He understood the [00:36:25] needs that I had clinically, emotionally, [00:36:30] socially kind of thing. So it was really good in that respect. Um, but [00:36:35] we had to get stuck in because there was nothing around us. Yeah. You know, wisdom teeth and [00:36:40] surgicals and everything.

Payman Langroudi: So what was the hospital that you to get? Oh, [00:36:45] I see, I see. I see.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. Lincoln. Because the whole it was, I was part of the Lincolnshire scheme. So [00:36:50] Jason Wong. Yeah. Was in my cohort.

Payman Langroudi: Right?

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Funny. [00:36:55]

Bhavnish Waghela: Mad.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, funny. All right. So then I guess you felt a bit isolated.

Bhavnish Waghela: Very much so. [00:37:00]

Payman Langroudi: Skegness.

Bhavnish Waghela: So the round trips. I basically from home [00:37:05] to Horncastle was 90 miles. So [00:37:10] I bought a house. I thought I’d stay there. I lived there six months, then commuted the rest because [00:37:15] it was just I had no. So I just there’s only so much time you could spend with your with your boss. [00:37:20] Right. So. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then you I guess.

Bhavnish Waghela: I did that.

Payman Langroudi: And then that year you [00:37:25] decided I’m coming back.

Bhavnish Waghela: I came back to Leicester. Um, I worked in my one [00:37:30] of my dad’s friends practice. Um, I was there for quite a while. Very NHS. [00:37:35] But my whole thing was doing good dentistry as best as [00:37:40] I possibly can. Um, because it was a case of trying to get [00:37:45] skilled.

Payman Langroudi: So do you remember, even in those early days, learning [00:37:50] things like. What is that guy your first boss doing really [00:37:55] well, and what is he not doing so well?

Bhavnish Waghela: He spoke to patients very well. [00:38:00] Yeah. You know, it wasn’t a case. You know, dentistry seems very much of a sales role at the moment Uh, [00:38:05] with with the kind of dentistry that we’re as a profession are going [00:38:10] into. So, in effect, you’re a glorified salesperson [00:38:15] trying to sell a treatment plan to a patient. And I [00:38:20] don’t like that. So when I was in my, um, [00:38:25] my boss was excellent in explaining treatments without [00:38:30] the need to oversell. Yeah. Yeah. And it was always about. It’s not about the money. [00:38:35] It’s about the patient. It’s always about the patient.

Payman Langroudi: And what about the way he was managing his practice, his staff? [00:38:40] The.

Bhavnish Waghela: So it was quite a homely atmosphere because it was literally [00:38:45] him. One hygienist and myself.

Payman Langroudi: Very friendly, very friendly. [00:38:50]

Bhavnish Waghela: Um, he lived above the practice. The practice.

Payman Langroudi: Was downstairs.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. That kind of thing. [00:38:55] Um, and it was really, really nice because it was a very friendly [00:39:00] atmosphere to work in.

Payman Langroudi: For that first boss is so major. Yeah. It makes such a such a difference. Sets you on a [00:39:05] particular trajectory. Yeah. What about your dad’s buddy? So you knew him well?

Bhavnish Waghela: So we I [00:39:10] knew him. We knew the family. Yeah. Um, and it was a larger NHS practice [00:39:15] in Leicester, so I worked there. And again, it was for me, it was like I was, I [00:39:20] was quite, I would say good at the clinical side of things. [00:39:25] And I was a little bit more on it compared to him because he.

Payman Langroudi: Was old timer. [00:39:30]

Bhavnish Waghela: Old timer. Yeah. And therefore I would get given [00:39:35] more elaborate cases of work.

Payman Langroudi: Cosmetic.

Bhavnish Waghela: I got to do that early [00:39:40] on. And in those days, um, there weren’t really many postgraduate qualifications, [00:39:45] but I did the. What was the MFA or MFA? Yeah. Um, [00:39:50] and then started taking photos of my work and, and sort of criticising it. Yeah. [00:39:55] Probably it started going to a couple of I went to a CD event a few years after that actually. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:40:00] Basically I hadn’t started.

Bhavnish Waghela: No, it hadn’t started then.

Payman Langroudi: Did you do any? Rosenthal.

Bhavnish Waghela: I did the Rosenthal thing. [00:40:05] I we used to do a lot of, um, I did the first Rosenthal thing and I thought, this is not for [00:40:10] me.

Payman Langroudi: But there wasn’t there was no cosmetic dentistry back then. That’s all there was.

Bhavnish Waghela: No, it [00:40:15] was very limited. Yeah. Um, and I felt [00:40:20] that cosmetic dentistry or more restorative dentistry is is [00:40:25] where. So, you know, the whole adhesives thing was, was not around then.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It wasn’t.

Bhavnish Waghela: Around. It [00:40:30] was more just prep things and.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: Do crowns.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So then then [00:40:35] how long did you stay in that one?

Bhavnish Waghela: I was there for about three and a half years.

Payman Langroudi: Until you bought your. [00:40:40]

Bhavnish Waghela: Nhs. Then. Then I thought, you know what, now I need to move. I had a bit of cocoming couple of [00:40:45] jobs, uh, met my wife.

Payman Langroudi: Um, she dentist too, isn’t [00:40:50] she?

Bhavnish Waghela: No. She’s, uh. So she’s nothing to do. Dentistry. She did a psychology degree. [00:40:55] Oh. And at the time, she was working as a business advisor in a local [00:41:00] business. Um, a local company that used [00:41:05] to support businesses. So we met whirlwind affair, met [00:41:10] in October, got married in June of the next year, and then we bought a practice the year after.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:41:15] she’s very involved in the running of the businesses. Yes. Um, [00:41:20] to the point that, I mean, it was even obvious to me when I visited that she was taking [00:41:25] care of a lot of the non-clinical side. Yeah. And you were the clinical. Did she did [00:41:30] you sort of plan it that way that you said, like, come into the business?

Bhavnish Waghela: Yes or no? [00:41:35] Um, so again, I suppose when I opened my, the Corby practice, um, I [00:41:40] struggled, you know, I didn’t, you know, when you have an NHS practice, there’s no such thing as marketing. There’s [00:41:45] no need for marketing. And the amount of money I wasted on advertising in this magazine [00:41:50] and that magazine. And so you learn from your mistakes. And I made a lot. Uh, [00:41:55] so we got Chris Sparrow involved in with our, with our practice And, [00:42:00] um, one of the things that Chris said is because I was doing everything clinical dentistry, payroll, [00:42:05] all everything was done by me. And he goes, Bob, you just need to now start [00:42:10] delegating things. So at that point, he was the one that said, right. So we thought, right, [00:42:15] let’s delegate all the stuff to all that stuff to her. Um, [00:42:20] my manager was looking after the staff and whatever it may be. So yeah. And since that [00:42:25] day, that division has been very good.

Payman Langroudi: I think Chris Barrett, [00:42:30] he gets a bit of stick, but I remember a time walking [00:42:35] into practices and thinking, he’s been here. You can tell. He can tell. Yeah, you can tell. There was [00:42:40] something about I mean again, these days it’s so common. Um, but back then he was way [00:42:45] ahead of his time at 100%. Way ahead of his time, 100%. So all right, you [00:42:50] start the NHS practice or you buy by the NHS practice. [00:42:55]

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. So that was an old retirement sale. Yeah. It was It was literally 600ft². The [00:43:00] guy didn’t do anything other than amalgams. We took over [00:43:05] May the 4th, I remember it. 2001. We [00:43:10] closed it for a week, and I remember in his surgery he had a large [00:43:15] window that the patients would face with a net curtain. I [00:43:20] remember taking the net curtain down. There were crowns in it because they were flicked, you know, it was the [00:43:25] most disgusting practice. Literally, it was terrible. They had the old school, [00:43:30] um, X-ray developing.

Payman Langroudi: Thing.

Bhavnish Waghela: And that was literally I had to get a sander to [00:43:35] remove that. So we just just cleaned it up. Myself, my friends [00:43:40] and brother and everyone, we just chipped in, you know, the old school sort of family business thing [00:43:45] got in there. Within a week we’d turned it around, opened and.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:43:50] but at this point, you weren’t doing any of the implants? No. So when, when [00:43:55] did that level of Clinical. I mean, you know, to want to open a private practice, [00:44:00] obviously your your clinical skills must have moved on. So what was [00:44:05] sort of the point that you went, well, I’m going to do private dentistry. Why? I mean, you know what I mean. [00:44:10] You could you could still be an NHS dentist today.

Bhavnish Waghela: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: But something flicked in your head.

Bhavnish Waghela: I did. Um, [00:44:15] so it was a case of I wanted to do something that would sort of. I wanted to do [00:44:20] it in those. I did the Eastman Year certificate course. Good one.

Payman Langroudi: And restorative. [00:44:25]

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. And the restorative.

Payman Langroudi: Back then, it really was the.

Bhavnish Waghela: It was really, really good. And what what I realised then [00:44:30] was, um, you get to hone your skills in various various [00:44:35] disciplines. Yeah. Um, and from then I met [00:44:40] a wonderful lady called Ryvita who passed away. Um, Raj Prakash and Ravi to Prakash [00:44:45] Raj.

Payman Langroudi: Prakash.

Bhavnish Waghela: Raj Prakash, his wife, she passed away. Yeah. So she was on the same cohort as [00:44:50] me. And I know Raj from King’s. So I used to. And he was doing [00:44:55] implants. So he then said, look, Bob, there’s this Ashok Sethi’s course. [00:45:00] So I did Ashok’s one year jump. Brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: So you got [00:45:05] NHS Eastman?

Bhavnish Waghela: Ashok Sethi I did the Eastman course. Ashok course at 33 [00:45:10] Harley Street. Ashok was brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: Opened your eyes to that.

Bhavnish Waghela: Opened my eyes. But he was really [00:45:15] open hearted as well. Because I would go in on a day when he would be working. I’d take [00:45:20] a day off and go and see him. He’d be my. He was basically my mentor. Then I did the World [00:45:25] College Diploma when he was still director of it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: Um, and [00:45:30] then. But that was after I’d opened my. So I did Ashok’s course, started placing [00:45:35] implants, and and that was when the new contract was had come [00:45:40] in, and I was like, you know, do we grow? What do we do? And I thought, I can’t really grow [00:45:45] in the premises that I was in. I can’t really promote the kind of dentistry that I want [00:45:50] to do. So then we then open this.

Payman Langroudi: It seems like today, it seems like [00:45:55] such an obvious thing to become like one of the early implant ologists in Leicester. I mean, massive [00:46:00] population in that area, right? You know, people don’t realise the population [00:46:05] of Leicester and its surrounding huge towns is like Birmingham, you know, it’s like a huge, [00:46:10] huge population. Today it seems so obvious, but you must have sort of worried that, [00:46:15] you know, is there space for an implant practice here?

Bhavnish Waghela: If you think about it, when I opened [00:46:20] the practice in Corby.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: Corby at the time was the teenage [00:46:25] pregnancy capital of the Europe.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. At the time when back then, everyone was blaming everything [00:46:30] on single mums instead of immigrants. Absolutely.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. So [00:46:35] it was terrible. And in fact, I remember when I opened the when we were opening the, the [00:46:40] practice and my manager at the time, Carol, she’s, she’s from Corby, she was like, I’m not [00:46:45] sure if this is going to work.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Bhavnish Waghela: Um, we’ve had some trouble. I remember one day we went in [00:46:50] and it was private dentistry awards. We were an up for an award 2000. [00:46:55] I can’t remember what year it was and I woke up. I had my alarm had gone off [00:47:00] and we had a car that had gone off the main road and crashed [00:47:05] into my front door in my practice, like, what the hell? We had to [00:47:10] stop. Yeah, yeah, but it’s in those. You know, when you said they say [00:47:15] diamonds are made under pressure and the team were brilliant, [00:47:20] we worked really well. So it was. But those that Corby practice or [00:47:25] that opening, that kind of practice in Corby was a challenge because [00:47:30] of the demographics of the area.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I want to get on to Implantology itself [00:47:35] a little bit. Okay. Um, because there’s definitely a [00:47:40] split between dentists who kind of are being very crude here, like blood [00:47:45] and don’t like blood. Yes. Yeah. There’s definitely some people do not want to ever [00:47:50] cut a flap. Yeah. Yeah. And then you get the other type. Who up for it? You know, maybe they’ve [00:47:55] done an oral surgery job or something, but they’re up for it. Do you remember [00:48:00] being the first type and forcing yourself to become the second type, or were you always that surgically [00:48:05] orientated kind of cat? Did Ashok unlock you?

Bhavnish Waghela: I think Ashok [00:48:10] unlocked me. I’ll tell you what I think. I think one of the things that I found was when I did the, uh, [00:48:15] restorative course at the Eastman. There wasn’t any surgery in that [00:48:20] at all, but the restorative aspect of it grounded me. [00:48:25]

Payman Langroudi: It’s important, isn’t it? I mean, we think of implant ologists as someone who sticks screws in the bone, but [00:48:30] it’s the full planning of the case. That’s the key.

Bhavnish Waghela: I think that’s the problem. I think, you know, [00:48:35] the oral surgery head leads to, oh, I can put an implant there [00:48:40] because there’s bone there, but then you’re not thinking about the restorative.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely.

Bhavnish Waghela: So, [00:48:45] um.

Payman Langroudi: Is that a good basic understanding of.

Bhavnish Waghela: Of the That’s [00:48:50] pretty, pretty well versed from what I remember at uni and then post [00:48:55] uni. Um, I liked to keep abreast of what was available in terms of courses [00:49:00] and things. Um, and then when I did Ashok’s course, that was like, I wasn’t scared [00:49:05] of cutting a flap, ever. Um, because again, when I was at King’s, [00:49:10] we got chucked in at the deep end. Um, unlike things now [00:49:15] where you’re probably lucky to get a crown, whereas then it was you just [00:49:20] go in. And at that time, we also had I remember we had a two week stint [00:49:25] at A&E where we were suturing all sorts of things. You know, whether it was a knee or a [00:49:30] mouth, it didn’t make a difference. So you had to do it. Yeah. Um, so for me, [00:49:35] it was more always being an extension of the restorative side more than [00:49:40] the surgical side.

Payman Langroudi: Alright. So the first thing is the kind of person who throws themselves [00:49:45] in. Yeah. Um, loads of people do the do the training and then don’t end [00:49:50] up putting many implants in. Tell me about that. I mean, like, if [00:49:55] you were going to give a young dentist’s advice or anyone’s do implantology. First of all, you say [00:50:00] get some training. Yeah, yeah. But loads of people get the training and don’t end up doing any implants. [00:50:05] What’s the what’s the unlock there?

Bhavnish Waghela: I think I think going back to basics again. So firstly [00:50:10] learn to restore. Um, if you’ve got to. That’s what I’m, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: What I.

Bhavnish Waghela: Want to. I’d [00:50:15] recommend learn to restore do some restoration. So you know the the nuances [00:50:20] of implant placement. Yeah. Um, and I think it’s technically [00:50:25] easier now because of guided surgery, guided placement. But [00:50:30] I feel that if you know where to restore, then do a decent [00:50:35] course. I’m not here to say what course, but ultimately do a course. Get [00:50:40] a mentor. Yeah, I think that’s really important because ultimately things can [00:50:45] go wrong. And if you don’t know what to do, you’re a bit stuck.

Payman Langroudi: Have you mentored [00:50:50] people?

Bhavnish Waghela: I have done, yeah. Um, we used to. Again, [00:50:55] it was one of these things that Chris recommended we do where, um, it was a case of reaching [00:51:00] out to our local practices for, um, referrals. Yeah. So [00:51:05] we did that, and then I would mentor associates or practices to come, and I’d go in there, [00:51:10] they’d come to us.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, implant mentoring is one of those things where it’s you’re going [00:51:15] to have to pay for it often. Yes. Because, you know, these are highly skilled people giving up their time. [00:51:20] But I think people underestimate the number of people who will say, [00:51:25] sure, come and watch me for a day.

Bhavnish Waghela: That’s what I used to do.

Payman Langroudi: You know that watching [00:51:30] watching experienced people. It gives you so much more than the treatment planning [00:51:35] piece. You know, it gives you just a whole lot of different skills.

Bhavnish Waghela: You know, like we said earlier, [00:51:40] it was a case of, you know, communication is not just [00:51:45] what you say, it’s how you say it.

Payman Langroudi: And the nuance, isn’t it?

Bhavnish Waghela: Those nuances [00:51:50] that really make a difference to how patients see you and how the team sees [00:51:55] you and stuff like that.

Payman Langroudi: So now let’s talk about, okay, you’ve done implant training. This this [00:52:00] this young dentist has done some implant training. He’s got himself a mentor. He’s maybe even stuck a [00:52:05] few implants in. This is so unfair. What I’m going to ask you next here, the [00:52:10] question is this. Yeah. If you had to boil [00:52:15] it down to 1 or 2 aha moments regarding [00:52:20] implants. What? Think back to [00:52:25] what were 1 or 2 unlocks in your own head. Moments of of of unlock [00:52:30] that you thought aha. Now I understand implant. Now now that I get that more and I’ve [00:52:35] asked this question, I asked Nilesh, uh, Palmer and he said, [00:52:40] uh, suturing. I asked Andrew Darwood and [00:52:45] he said 3D thinking, you know, and examples of [00:52:50] when it was that what comes to mind if I say, aha, where you thought, God, I’ve [00:52:55] got this, now I get it, now what happens? Soft tissues.

Bhavnish Waghela: I think we always underestimate [00:53:00] the power of the end result in terms of [00:53:05] soft tissues.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, the emergence profile.

Bhavnish Waghela: Emergence profile, but also the thickening of [00:53:10] that connective tissue grafting where appropriate, using it, [00:53:15] being able to do it.

Payman Langroudi: To your advantage.

Bhavnish Waghela: To your advantage. Because so many people come [00:53:20] with, uh, you know, especially free end saddles, it’s like maxillary [00:53:25] free and saddles, you have to do a sinus graft, and then you [00:53:30] are left with that vertical height [00:53:35] loss discrepancy. And a lot of dentists would just put pink porcelain. I’m not Ashok [00:53:40] taught me. He’s not a big fan of pink porcelain, so wherever possible [00:53:45] we avoid that. Obviously with full arch cases it’s a different thing. But in the posterior area [00:53:50] we sort of like not to do that.

Payman Langroudi: So what do you do to sort of avert from having [00:53:55] to do that?

Bhavnish Waghela: So I’ll do I do a fair amount of soft tissue grafting.

Payman Langroudi: Grafting.

Bhavnish Waghela: Um, yeah, [00:54:00] basically.

Payman Langroudi: And so did you have a situation where [00:54:05] you didn’t do that, you found that and you know, like the the unlock?

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. I had a patient [00:54:10] where I had placed implants on her right side. Absolutely. [00:54:15] No problem. It wasn’t it was a bounded saddle. So I think I placed a four and five, probably some of the easiest implants. [00:54:20] You can do loads of bone, put them in nice position, nice, straight. And [00:54:25] then then something happened. Uh, I had to do the left hand side and [00:54:30] there was a bit of a recess there, did some grafting and I didn’t do a tissue graft. [00:54:35] Um, and what ended up was that the tooth looked really long.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:54:40]

Bhavnish Waghela: It worked. There’s loads of bone there, but it looked long [00:54:45] visually. Not when she smiles, but when she lifts up her cheek so [00:54:50] she doesn’t look the same as this side.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. And the learning curve around soft tissue. [00:54:55] Is it much more difficult? Must be right.

Bhavnish Waghela: Much less.

Payman Langroudi: Predictable.

Bhavnish Waghela: First it’s. I think it’s. [00:55:00] I think it’s fairly predictable in the right if you understand the process.

Payman Langroudi: What you’re.

Bhavnish Waghela: Doing. Yeah, yeah I [00:55:05] did. Um, Kelly’s courses. I’ve done a few of those. So he’s [00:55:10] very good. Um, and again, go back to Ashok [00:55:15] again.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Bhavnish Waghela: So, yeah, but also think of some of the things that Ashok was teaching at [00:55:20] the time was obviously this is pre surgery. Pre um scanning. [00:55:25] Yeah, yeah. So he was um placing and [00:55:30] taking an impression at the first stage surgery. [00:55:35] Closing it. Yeah. And then getting his technician to create [00:55:40] the soft tissue in wax, and then making a restoration to that defined [00:55:45] soft tissue before and then making a provisional. And then you’re training that that works really well. [00:55:50] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You kind of pioneered that. Yeah. Yeah. So now [00:55:55] going forward, how much of your work is guided and how much is most of it guided [00:56:00] now.

Bhavnish Waghela: I’d say a about. 60% [00:56:05] guided. But all my [00:56:10] full arch cases.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s say guided, wasn’t available. You could still pull it off. Right.

Bhavnish Waghela: Because yeah, I mean, that’s how we did. [00:56:15]

Payman Langroudi: That sort of baptism of fire. But do you see some some youngsters who have [00:56:20] gone straight to guided and and don’t have the basic skills. Does that happen?

Bhavnish Waghela: I’m sure it [00:56:25] does. Um, I haven’t seen anybody, but I’m sure it does because ultimately the. You’re relying [00:56:30] on that guide. Yeah, you’re relying on the accuracy of that guide and the planning [00:56:35] to give you exact position in the In the bone. Um, and. [00:56:40]

Payman Langroudi: How often does that go wrong? The guide. The guide is inaccurate, for [00:56:45] whatever reason. I mean, what are the things that go wrong with the guide?

Bhavnish Waghela: I think the [00:56:50] biggest problem with guides, uh, would be cooling.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Bhavnish Waghela: Um, [00:56:55] I think if you’ve got a decent scanner, um, obviously [00:57:00] most and it also depends on who’s doing the planning. I mean I do my planning myself. Yeah. So [00:57:05] I’m planning it. Everything in house. Um, so I don’t think [00:57:10] it can go that wrong. But if you don’t know the surgical nuances of bone [00:57:15] density and placement and, you know, just the lingual [00:57:20] recesses that can occur around in the mandible [00:57:25] and stuff like that, just basic anatomy, then I’m sure things can go.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting, isn’t it? Because all of [00:57:30] this, as we call we call all of this experience. Yeah. But experience [00:57:35] comes from errors. 100% right. You know. And you say, oh, I want [00:57:40] to really experience doctor to do my work or whatever that means. He’s made lots of errors. I [00:57:45] remember.

Bhavnish Waghela: I remember my we we had this we it was a case of we [00:57:50] were doing so few in the early days. And then suddenly when things start to [00:57:55] fail, you start to think, why are they failing? I said, because we’re doing a lot more. Yeah, it’s a statistical. [00:58:00]

Payman Langroudi: Exactly, exactly. So how many do you do now?

Bhavnish Waghela: Probably [00:58:05] about 5 or 600. Depends. Oh.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s most [00:58:10] of your work?

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So do you not do.

Bhavnish Waghela: I do, I do, I do I [00:58:15] don’t do, I don’t do many fillings.

Payman Langroudi: Crowns or.

Bhavnish Waghela: Crowns, I do, I do because I enjoy doing crowns. [00:58:20] I enjoy doing cerec. Most of my work is part of a rehab of some [00:58:25] kind. So if I’m doing crowns, it will be. I mean, this morning it was four crowns [00:58:30] and two implants, placement and prep and whatever that kind of thing is. So it’s it’s more of a. [00:58:35] The. Yeah, a big change in that respect.

Payman Langroudi: An overall treatment. [00:58:40]

Bhavnish Waghela: Plan. Treatment plan. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So look you did what you did, but let’s say your [00:58:45] daughter was going to be a dentist and she wanted to be [00:58:50] a surgical dentist. What what what would be the advice now? Because [00:58:55] it’s a different era now. Yeah. I mean, for instance, what you’re saying about the [00:59:00] restorative side. Would you send them off to Kauai first? I would.

Bhavnish Waghela: I think I think [00:59:05] I would recommend she does some kind of.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, occlusion.

Bhavnish Waghela: Occlusion, [00:59:10] restorative training first. Um, and then I [00:59:15] would, you know, surgical training is is recommended. [00:59:20] I mean, I was fortunate because when I did my PT, we [00:59:25] had to do everything ourselves. Um, I would go to the local hospital and [00:59:30] shadow. And what do the max facts. Um. So [00:59:35] it was, it was good. And then obviously in Leicester I’d go to the [00:59:40] max there and get, get stuck in. I did a clinical assistantship [00:59:45] in, in the max in Leicester, did a restorative clinical assistantship there as well. So it was working [00:59:50] in various different aspects of it.

Payman Langroudi: I bet you knew all the people in the hospital. That’s [00:59:55] how you got there.

Bhavnish Waghela: No I didn’t I wish I did, I do now, I didn’t [01:00:00] then.

Payman Langroudi: I just figured when I came to Sweden I was like, this guy knows everyone [01:00:05] in this town. Oh. All right, so one [01:00:10] last thing on implants. All on four.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: I’m more interested. I’m more [01:00:15] interested in the marketing side of that. What do you do to get all on four patients? I mean, are you [01:00:20] doing ads? Are you?

Bhavnish Waghela: We are doing some ads. Uh, we we are doing some ads. [01:00:25] But I think what we’re looking, we tend to say to patients or [01:00:30] ask our ads, focus on pain points. So more along [01:00:35] the lines of are you struggling chewing? Are you [01:00:40] having these ads?

Payman Langroudi: Ads like newspaper ads?

Bhavnish Waghela: No, they’re more online ads.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:00:45] that age group, do I guess they’re on Facebook, right?

Bhavnish Waghela: Facebook?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: Um, [01:00:50] we have done, um, little campaigns. [01:00:55] We do every now and again. We’ll do like an open implant. Implant open evening [01:01:00] where we’ll just invite people to come. We’ll do some form of marketing to attract people. Um, [01:01:05] and then they come in. Initially when we did them, we would have a time slot in the evening. [01:01:10] So we’d have some food and we’d have 15, 20 people come. Ask [01:01:15] as many questions as you’d want. I do a little presentation to the patients. Um, and [01:01:20] then we’ll have a quick look in the mouth and say, yes, you’re suitable. Let’s get you booked in. That’s how we’ve done [01:01:25] it.

Payman Langroudi: And how many of those do you end up doing? Like all on [01:01:30] fours. Is it loads.

Bhavnish Waghela: It’s probably not that many. We don’t. It’s not an we’re not an [01:01:35] all on four focus. It’s not my focus.

Payman Langroudi: Um, have you been to Evo?

Bhavnish Waghela: I have. [01:01:40]

Payman Langroudi: Phenomenal, right?

Bhavnish Waghela: Very slick.

Payman Langroudi: I want to have him on.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I want to have him on.

Bhavnish Waghela: Um, [01:01:45] I’ve been to Evo, but the trigger was, um, [01:01:50] a practice in Germany. In Ulm. Michael weiss. Unbelievable. [01:01:55] This this clinic is huge. They have a tree in the in the reception. Wow. [01:02:00] Um, and I went there through Bree Dent ages ago. Um, [01:02:05] and they were very slick. It was like you got three choices. Dentures, [01:02:10] fixed teeth, or somewhere in the middle, which will fall [01:02:15] out.

Payman Langroudi: Basically.

Bhavnish Waghela: So, um, but we do maybe [01:02:20] 3 or 4 a month.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a lot. Still a lot.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s move [01:02:25] on to the darker part of the pod. We like to talk about Errors? [01:02:30]

Bhavnish Waghela: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Chemical errors. What comes to mind? You [01:02:35] know. Have you have you. Have you heard of Black box thinking? It’s a it’s a book where a plane crashes. [01:02:40] Mhm. They look at the black box. They find out what happened. Then they distribute [01:02:45] that information across all the pilot community all over the world without any blame. [01:02:50] And they say look this is what went wrong. Let’s all try and learn from it so it doesn’t happen again. But [01:02:55] with medical Dental, we don’t do that. Yes. We tend to sort of hide from [01:03:00] our errors. We do because blame is a big factor.

Bhavnish Waghela: 100%.

Payman Langroudi: So to [01:03:05] buck that trend, what comes to mind when you think clinical errors?

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. Uh, the first [01:03:10] thing is more of a straightforward cosmetic thing with with [01:03:15] a simple partial denture. Had a, had a patient very [01:03:20] early on. She wanted a partial. She had a partial. We made [01:03:25] her a new partial. She went home. Her daughter didn’t like it. Wanted her money back. [01:03:30] Fine. So what we do now is if we’re [01:03:35] doing anything that is, uh, removable or even fixed, [01:03:40] uh, even if it’s, like, for an all on four case prior to finishing, if [01:03:45] it’s a removable, take it home, leave it, show [01:03:50] as many people as you want before you approve, because [01:03:55] once it’s approved, we’re not going to change it. And if you do want to change, it will cost you. So they are given plenty of time [01:04:00] to confirm they’re happy with that. If it’s a fixed [01:04:05] solution, um, we’ll do a try in, uh, we’ll take loads of photos, [01:04:10] loads of videos, and we’ll send that to the patient. Um, and then so those [01:04:15] are cosmetic things and that all of those changes that I made in our practice were mainly because of this [01:04:20] one lady whose daughter didn’t like her. Partial.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, I think it’s a good [01:04:25] thing, you know, to prep the Prep the patient and say some of your nearest and dearest aren’t going to like it because [01:04:30] there’s good reasons for it. I stuck veneers on my dad and I remember [01:04:35] pulling the chair up. I remember the nurse going, oh my God, that’s beautiful. My dad, for the first time in [01:04:40] my life, telling me he’s proud of me. And I looked at him, thought, that’s not my dad anymore. Yeah. You know, like [01:04:45] I was used to the gaps. Yeah. You know, the weakness was what I loved about him or whatever it is. Yeah. [01:04:50] So I get why it could happen.

Bhavnish Waghela: And this is it. Because ultimately, I mean, more [01:04:55] often than not, it’s a third party who will trigger [01:05:00] a complaint of some kind.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s a complex situation, right? Sometimes we’re talking about 50 [01:05:05] grand of spend. Absolutely. Yeah. So he’s gone off and someone’s persuaded him spend this money. He didn’t even need it in the first. You know [01:05:10] what I mean? Something like that. Yeah. Go on.

Bhavnish Waghela: So that’s the first thing that was a really straightforward [01:05:15] way very early on. So that was the other thing. Sometimes what happens is we get caught up [01:05:20] in the haste Of [01:05:25] treating patients because a patient puts pressures on [01:05:30] us. I want it ready for this date. Yeah. And I don’t think patients understand that. [01:05:35] Uh, especially when a situation is bad from the get [01:05:40] go. So I remember quite a year, many years ago, a patient [01:05:45] had an event that they wanted to be done by. She had some [01:05:50] gingivitis. She wanted some veneers. So we did it very quickly. She was sedated [01:05:55] and obviously she had some black triangles, post [01:06:00] everything healing. And it was like, okay, I’ll do it. We’ll do it again. But it was [01:06:05] a painful experience.

Payman Langroudi: So what happened in the wedding?

Bhavnish Waghela: She went to the [01:06:10] wedding with, like, black triangles because it could be done in time, [01:06:15] right? You know, again, it was like, you know, if you’d come on time again, it’s just you.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:06:20] how did the patient take it?

Bhavnish Waghela: She was really upset.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: Very upset. [01:06:25] Um, and then they were emigrating. So it was. [01:06:30] We’re moving out the country. I’ve got to go to this wedding. It’s my brother or sister’s wedding. She [01:06:35] had the. She was wearing a, um, one of those clicky [01:06:40] smiles. Oh, really? Snap on, snap on. Smiles. So when she took it off, it [01:06:45] was horrendous underneath. So.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:06:50] tried to be a hero.

Bhavnish Waghela: We tried to be a hero. So hero antics. I think what happens is we tend to try [01:06:55] and save teeth for patients because we feel that it’s ours and it is [01:07:00] our responsibility ultimately to help them. But sometimes we have to tell a patient what can be done and can’t [01:07:05] be done.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: We have to be honest about that.

Payman Langroudi: Often. It’s not. It’s being honest with yourself as [01:07:10] well. Right. Often you’re pushing the boundaries a little bit and the patient doesn’t realise. [01:07:15] You haven’t sort of made that clear to the patient that I’m pushing the boundaries a little bit [01:07:20] on this one. Um, and then it goes wrong because you’re because you’re pushing the boundaries. And [01:07:25] then we’ve got a situation.

Bhavnish Waghela: So very often I mean I think the, the older I’m getting the more I’m [01:07:30] telling them the, the this is not possible. Or if I’m doing this, I don’t think it’s going to last as long [01:07:35] or let’s be honest about this, this is this is the.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:07:40] like those two stories. But I just think for someone who’s done as many implants as you, for [01:07:45] instance, there must be a better story than those two stories.

Bhavnish Waghela: About a few implants [01:07:50] fall out on me.

Payman Langroudi: Go on.

Bhavnish Waghela: Oh, there’s this one. There’s this one girl, one lady that I that [01:07:55] comes to my I mean, she’s brilliant. She still sees me now. Uh-uh. Uh, bilateral sinus lift. She’s an ex-drug [01:08:00] user. I’m not a smoker. Her gran [01:08:05] was. I did all on for her. For her gran. She was paying for this. This [01:08:10] granddaughter of hers. And these just, you know, I think I did bilateral sinus lift, waited six, eight [01:08:15] months, put implants in left hand side one fell out, the other one [01:08:20] fell out, another one fell out. Fell out. Oh, shit. And it hadn’t happened to me before because [01:08:25] it’s always worked in my hands.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: And then you start looking at the the [01:08:30] physiological aspect of Implantology, uh, or [01:08:35] the health related aspect of it.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the drug abuse and all that.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah. But she still sees [01:08:40] me. So it was a so.

Payman Langroudi: She was.

Bhavnish Waghela: Cool. She was cool because but from a clinical point of view, I [01:08:45] should have waited longer. I should have explained to her that, you [01:08:50] know, I wasn’t as frank about how [01:08:55] things can fail is more communicative, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Hadn’t happened [01:09:00] to you before? No. Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: And it was probably one of the first patients that I’d seen where [01:09:05] I had that history. In fact, the only person I’ve seen with that history.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: So. Yeah. [01:09:10] Luckily, I’ve been fortunate. Nothing.

Payman Langroudi: If I say. What about if I say who is your most difficult patient? [01:09:15]

Bhavnish Waghela: Invisalign patients.

Payman Langroudi: Because they get suddenly very exacting, [01:09:20] don’t they?

Bhavnish Waghela: Luckily, I don’t do much. But I think what happens is as your teeth become straighter, you become more and more, and [01:09:25] they forget where they came from.

Payman Langroudi: Listen, I’ve been that parent. I’ve been that parent with my own [01:09:30] kids, Invisalign or my own kids ortho. Where at the end I’m just giving the guy, not me, my wife [01:09:35] giving the guy a really hard time about this one millimetre. Yeah. You know. [01:09:40]

Bhavnish Waghela: And I think I think what happens is we, we as I think [01:09:45] okay. So firstly patients forget where they come from. Mhm. Um [01:09:50] we are not at good at communicating [01:09:55] what can and can’t be done from the get go. And I [01:10:00] think we’re all scared of being sued FTP, whatever it may be that [01:10:05] we will say okay fine, I’ll do what I can. Yeah, [01:10:10] yeah. Um, and often there is not much we can do. Um, I. [01:10:15]

Payman Langroudi: Think there’s a tension. Do you recognise this here? That it’s. It’s a young a young man’s trap to fall into. Yeah, [01:10:20] but the tension between you mentioned it before making the sale. Yes. [01:10:25] Yeah. The amount of enthusiasm you have to have for it. Yeah. I can take care of this [01:10:30] in order that the patient gets confidence so that you make the sale. And what [01:10:35] you just said, pointing out all the limitations of the treatment. And [01:10:40] it’s a young man’s trap because actually and we both know it, that we’re getting to the stage where we’ve had [01:10:45] to talk to doctors and, you know, family members and all that, actually a doctor or [01:10:50] a lawyer who tells you A, B, C, X, Y, and Z are big risks [01:10:55] here. Yeah. Do you actually respect that guy more? Yeah. Than the one who says, [01:11:00] yep, we can do this. Let’s go. Yeah. Because we all know nothing is yet. We can do this. Let’s [01:11:05] go in medicine. Right.

Bhavnish Waghela: Absolutely. I think I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Very, you know, where we sell the Invisalign? [01:11:10] Because now we made a silly target for the Invisalign open day. We said yes, let’s sell [01:11:15] ten Invisalign. Let’s get everyone geed up over that fact. Yeah. Now we’ve pushed [01:11:20] someone to say, hey, go ahead. We’re going to make this beautiful. Now, a year later. [01:11:25] Yeah, that comes back to get you, bite you. You know.

Bhavnish Waghela: So this is the thing that we’ve done. We’ve, we’ve [01:11:30] I think some of the, one of the things that we’ve done with our open days, whether they’ve been we don’t do many Invisalign open [01:11:35] days, we’re not an Invisalign practice or business, um, is even when we’ve [01:11:40] done open days or smile makeover open days, we’ve always we’ve very [01:11:45] rarely put really strict targets in place for our team, because ultimately [01:11:50] we’ve always felt that the end result is a happy patient, rather than [01:11:55] however many veneers or however many case acceptances. [01:12:00] Obviously, that’s part of the business. We have to look at those figures, but it’s not the [01:12:05] be all and end all of what we do in our practice. Um.

Payman Langroudi: The funny thing with aligners [01:12:10] is, as people discount them, there isn’t that much money in aligners [01:12:15] is anymore?

Bhavnish Waghela: No.

Payman Langroudi: You know. And this effect that you’re talking about is exacting [01:12:20] patient who needs to revision what they call it revision? No. Um, refinement. Refinement. [01:12:25] Yeah. So you’ve got a double whammy. People are bringing their price down, throwing in free everything with it, and then refinements [01:12:30] on top. It’s not as profitable as a couple of rounds. Exactly. [01:12:35]

Bhavnish Waghela: Well, this is it, isn’t it? I mean, I sort of talk to my associates and I say, look, ultimately, if you think [01:12:40] about an Invisalign case, um, it’s going to take you this amount of time [01:12:45] and this many visits and you’re going to make from a, from a purely, [01:12:50] very simple profit and loss, you’re going to gross this much. Whereas [01:12:55] if you did two crowns and we have cerec, [01:13:00] um, you can it’s going to it’s such a no brainer.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: So Quadrant [01:13:05] Dentistry you’re doing best. Good quality quadrant dentistry for the patient [01:13:10] is far more profitable from a business point of view for everybody.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:13:15] Tell me about associates. Do you reckon [01:13:20] you’re quite good at spotting a good associate? Because you’ve had some people. Gomez. Yeah. Talked [01:13:25] about? Yeah. Who? You know, gone on to do things of their own. And, you know, I guess they’ve learned from you [01:13:30] as well. Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: I think I think, um, there is an element of it’s a two way street. [01:13:35] Mhm. I believe that there are some people that want to learn. Yeah. And [01:13:40] some people that want to earn. Mhm. And I, I have [01:13:45] hired both and I’ve fired those that just want to earn. Mhm. [01:13:50] Um historically we’ve done that because again you know there [01:13:55] is a really because both the practices have been nurtured, [01:14:00] patients have been nurtured by me and the team. We have an element of [01:14:05] expectation by patients and by the staff of how a patient is treated [01:14:10] by associates. Mhm. Um, and you know, I did an audit of how [01:14:15] much free stuff I’ve done, and we’re talking thousands of pounds [01:14:20] worth of stuff, because for me, it’s not about the money. It’s. I’ll [01:14:25] fix it. Don’t worry about it. You’ve paid me to do this. I’ll. I’ll sort it. Um, whereas not [01:14:30] everybody thinks like that.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Bhavnish Waghela: That’s right. So when it comes to [01:14:35] sometimes we’ve had to hire because we’ve needed to hire. Mhm. Um, there’s only so much I can [01:14:40] do. And therefore a quick hire especially in this market is, [01:14:45] is, is needed sometimes. And then you sort of figure out as they started how good they [01:14:50] are or not or where they need nurturing. And if they are, if they want to be nurtured, [01:14:55] it’s brilliant. Um, luckily we’re lucky in that the team that we have at the moment are [01:15:00] all very good in the way they are receptive to [01:15:05] being being mentored.

Payman Langroudi: Would you feel like you can spot [01:15:10] them?

Bhavnish Waghela: No. I’ll be honest.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you know, you’re not wrong. I mean, you know Prav. Yes. [01:15:15] He’s got this process for hiring, not dentists, but hiring his team. I [01:15:20] mean, if you walked you through the process, it’s this unbelievable thing. Like, they go through this, [01:15:25] this whole answer questionnaire thing where he’s got some trap questions that anyone who gets [01:15:30] that one wrong is taken out. He’s got a bunch of things that happened just by automation [01:15:35] to ask him. And then they come, uh, the 4 or 5 finalists come [01:15:40] in for a week each, and then the team decides who’s. And he goes often at the end of all of [01:15:45] that, he ends up firing that person one week later. Because. Because it’s the wrong person. He’s [01:15:50] not the person. He thought he was kidding. Wow. Um, but is that.

Bhavnish Waghela: Do you say that’s all automated?

Payman Langroudi: No, there’s a big [01:15:55] automated piece. But then even even once it’s all done, the five people come in for a whole [01:16:00] week for a trial. Trial week? Yeah. And what my my basic point is, even with [01:16:05] a process like that, you can get it wrong. Um, but you know. [01:16:10] What can you learn from someone in an interview? It’s difficult. Just their communication [01:16:15] style.

Bhavnish Waghela: It’s like when you go out on a social, you know, if you meet somebody, you’re introduced to somebody. Yeah. Um, and [01:16:20] they are very, you know, first time you meet somebody, second time. Third time [01:16:25] you meet somebody. It takes a long time to get to their [01:16:30] real, real self. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s funny, my friend talks about this here, that if [01:16:35] he has a dinner party, he invites three people to the dinner. It was three families [01:16:40] to the table. Because people get on really well that first time. Because everyone tells their best stories. [01:16:45] Yeah. But if you invite them again. Yeah. They haven’t got those stories to go to anymore.

Bhavnish Waghela: Everyone’s [01:16:50] on their best behaviour for the first few times. And then. Then you’re stuck. I used to do this [01:16:55] system where I’m a big believer. So, you know, some people are heavy handed. [01:17:00] Yeah. Like physically they the way they, you know. Yeah. Massage or whatever [01:17:05] it may be. So I used to get the associates to do an A scale and polish on me on me to see how heavy handed they were. Um, [01:17:10] and then we’ve not hired people based on that or hygienists and stuff like that, [01:17:15] because ultimately it’s you’ve had patients who’ve [01:17:20] been treated by staff or been treated by the team who are very happy [01:17:25] because of the fact that it didn’t hurt them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: The, the you know, everyone [01:17:30] knows this, that there are certain dentists that are not skilled in their ability [01:17:35] to produce an exquisite restoration, but the patients will love them. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That [01:17:40] gentle dentist thing, you know, painless injections. It goes a distance [01:17:45] massively. I think I bang on about this too much. I’ll talk about in the previous podcast. [01:17:50] Painless injection, I think is like maybe the most important thing you could do.

Bhavnish Waghela: I 100% agree [01:17:55] with you. You know, so many times I’ll get told, um, that, you know, [01:18:00] you’re the first time I’ve had an injection. I keep coming back to you because it doesn’t hurt.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: Um, [01:18:05] and even with implants, I will make a song and dance about how much it’s going to hurt them after [01:18:10] anything I do. And when it doesn’t hurt that much, they think I’m brilliant. [01:18:15]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What do you see as the future for you? [01:18:20]

Bhavnish Waghela: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Do you want to wind down? Do you want to sell?

Bhavnish Waghela: I think so. I probably [01:18:25] look at selling in the next 7 or 8 years.

Payman Langroudi: Say eight years, maybe.

Bhavnish Waghela: Maybe sooner. [01:18:30] We’ll see. It just depends. Because obviously, if my daughter does architecture, then it’s a seven [01:18:35] year course. So I need to sort of think about. But also I think I, you know, what would I do. I enjoy I really.

Payman Langroudi: Enjoy.

Bhavnish Waghela: Dentistry. [01:18:40] I probably do a lot more volunteering at the in our organisation. Yeah. Um, [01:18:45] I. Would travel probably [01:18:50] travel. And because I enjoy implants, I’d probably [01:18:55] teach. I’d probably roam be a roaming. I placed implants [01:19:00] at sensu as well, you know. Yeah, yeah. And I go there every [01:19:05] now and again and do that. So I could probably just do that on a few days a week and then sell [01:19:10] up in London.

Payman Langroudi: You do that?

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, nice. It’s a weekend away.

Bhavnish Waghela: A weekend, usually [01:19:15] a Saturday. Um, but again, it’s sort of ad hoc. Um, [01:19:20] we we instructed people to help us grow our Invisalign a few years ago. [01:19:25] So it’s like a symbiotic thing that way.

Payman Langroudi: Nice. Which practice do you go to? All of them.

Bhavnish Waghela: The. The [01:19:30] both London Bridge and Wimpole.

Payman Langroudi: There’s two.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you’ve [01:19:35] never taught before?

Bhavnish Waghela: No teaching.

Payman Langroudi: No ambition [01:19:40] to.

Bhavnish Waghela: Not really. No.

Payman Langroudi: That’s different. That’s nice.

Bhavnish Waghela: I think I think even [01:19:45] even, you know, I think everyone’s seeming to sort of write their exit planning is to have [01:19:50] a business where they end up coaching or training of some kind. [01:19:55] Yeah. That isn’t me. I’d probably join my friends in their businesses doing something. [01:20:00] Yeah. Rather than it wouldn’t be dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Well, [01:20:05] you’ve, you’ve, you’ve you’ve pretty much completed dentistry. If dentistry was an [01:20:10] arcade game. You’ve completed it.

Bhavnish Waghela: I’ve completed a few levels. Then I’d be 30 years this year. [01:20:15] So for you.

Payman Langroudi: As well, right? Yeah. I’m going for my 30 year thing in summer. Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: We’re planning on meeting [01:20:20] a few this year somewhere, if that works.

Payman Langroudi: Out. We’ve come to the end of our time, so, um, [01:20:25] I’m going to finish it with the usual questions.

Bhavnish Waghela: Go for.

Payman Langroudi: It. First [01:20:30] one’s a fantasy dinner party. Three guests, dead or alive. Who [01:20:35] do you have?

Bhavnish Waghela: Okay, so I would probably have my guru. Um, [01:20:40] obviously, for for the fact that he’s [01:20:45] not here physically. Um, then I would have. Mahatma [01:20:50] Gandhi.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. He’s [01:20:55] been before to these dinner parties.

Bhavnish Waghela: And there’s another person. So I’m quite a passionate Indian. Yeah, [01:21:00] and there is. There was a person in the in the Indian independence movement. Um. [01:21:05] Oh my God. Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel. He [01:21:10] was not recognised for his role in the independence of India. [01:21:15] Um, but he was slightly opposite to Gandhi. Okay. [01:21:20] Gandhi was very much about. Yeah. Peaceful revolution.

Payman Langroudi: He was. He was. Malcolm X [01:21:25] was.

Bhavnish Waghela: Like the Malcolm X of that. Um. So three Indians.

Payman Langroudi: What’s his name?

Bhavnish Waghela: Patel. [01:21:30]

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Bhavnish Waghela: His his his. Um. Yeah. Slightly different [01:21:35] approach. He was a bit more of a, you know, we need to do this properly. Kind [01:21:40] of a bit more gung ho approach. So, three massive Indians.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting dinner [01:21:45] party. Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: Because those two are polar opposite.

Payman Langroudi: You’re sort of identifying [01:21:50] as an Indian. Yes. As a Gujarati or as a Hindu, as a, you know, the [01:21:55] different things that you identify as. Yeah. And I guess it’s super important to you. You know what I find really [01:22:00] interesting? How your staff were talking about the temple and what they’ve like, [01:22:05] learned about it from you.

Bhavnish Waghela: And I talked about it quite openly. And also we, um, every year [01:22:10] at Diwali.

Payman Langroudi: They.

Bhavnish Waghela: Come. Uh, we have an event that’s massive events in Neasden. [01:22:15] Yeah, it’s over two days, Diwali. And the next day is the Gujarati New Year. And over in [01:22:20] Neasden, they get like 50 or 60,000 people over the two days. In Leicester we get 15, 20,000 people. [01:22:25] And I’m quite heavily involved in that.

Payman Langroudi: So look that identity [01:22:30] right. You know, it’s it’s important right. It’s it’s what [01:22:35] how you define yourself. Do you recognise what I’m saying? If I say if [01:22:40] you’re let’s say your daughter doesn’t want to marry [01:22:45] a Hindu or or whatever that. And I can imagine you’d want them [01:22:50] to 1 or 2. Right. But do you understand? Do you recognise what I’m saying regarding [01:22:55] evolution of that? Evolution [01:23:00] of that, you know, like kind of kind of what? You said your dad came here overcompensated. [01:23:05] Overcompensated. Hence, you know, then you did what you did. Each [01:23:10] one is an evolution. 100%. Yeah. And I’m not saying [01:23:15] she needs to marry a Swedish guy. Yeah, whatever. Let her marry whoever she wants to marry. [01:23:20] But. But Jensen was saying, like regarding evolution.

Bhavnish Waghela: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Of [01:23:25] second generation. Third generation, you know, and in the same way, not just marry. Uh, [01:23:30] let’s say she didn’t say architecture. Let’s say she said, I want to act in plays. [01:23:35] Yeah. Yeah. You know, that’s.

Bhavnish Waghela: Very interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Alarm signs.

Bhavnish Waghela: Because she [01:23:40] she she did. She’s a phenomenal singer.

Payman Langroudi: Is she.

Bhavnish Waghela: And she’s done a diploma in musical [01:23:45] theatre singing. Oh, wow wow wow.

Payman Langroudi: So she’s kind of come up.

Bhavnish Waghela: So it has come up and the discussion has [01:23:50] been had.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. How interesting.

Bhavnish Waghela: Um, and it was a case of. Look, we understand, but [01:23:55] get a degree. Get a degree first.

Payman Langroudi: Same thing as your dad said to you, right? Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: Basically. [01:24:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: But yeah, I think, um.

Payman Langroudi: Because there are things that stay the same. [01:24:05] Yeah. Like advice like that. And then there are things that need to evolve. And it’s, it’s an [01:24:10] interesting sort of I.

Bhavnish Waghela: Think the challenge being from where I am from. Yeah, is we [01:24:15] live in this crossroads or I live in this crossroads where.

Payman Langroudi: East and west.

Bhavnish Waghela: East [01:24:20] and west and yes, okay, I am Western, but my faith is eastern. [01:24:25] Yeah, my spirituality is eastern, and as a family we are quite [01:24:30] religious. So we don’t drink and we’re vegetarian and we go to religious, [01:24:35] we go to the temple regularly or we go to events that are religious very regularly. So [01:24:40] what she sees and what she has seen growing up is me going to the temple, [01:24:45] me doing a red dot on my head and me praying in the morning, and her mum listening to various [01:24:50] discourses and lighting candles in the house and you know, all these things. [01:24:55] So she, she’s very much. She herself does a bindi [01:25:00] every day at school, and so she’s quite religious in her way, but even [01:25:05] more Western than us.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s definitely it is evolving anyway. [01:25:10]

Bhavnish Waghela: It is.

Payman Langroudi: Evolving. Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: Interesting. You know, thought process is mindset. You know, even even, you know, [01:25:15] if you look at, uh, gender equality and those kind of things. Massive change. [01:25:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. The final question. Yeah, it’s a deathbed question. I [01:25:25] don’t want to be morbid, but it’s a deathbed question. On your deathbed, surrounded by your loved ones, your grandchildren’s grandchildren, [01:25:30] if you had to give them three pieces of advice, what would they be?

Bhavnish Waghela: Don’t [01:25:35] focus on. Focus [01:25:40] on your family. Focus on time with your family. Um, and [01:25:45] that’s not just your children. It’s also your parents. Yeah, I think we forget [01:25:50] our parents too much.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: I would say [01:25:55] that money comes and goes and is not important. And [01:26:00] don’t look at your neighbours. You know that whole [01:26:05] compare. Don’t compare.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bhavnish Waghela: Don’t compare is I think comparison is the worst thing. So focus [01:26:10] on your family, parents and children time with them because [01:26:15] that’s never going to come back. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Someone told me that about parents and [01:26:20] and I said, oh no, both my parents are still alive. And he said he said, it’s not that. [01:26:25] He said, it’s not that. Talk to them while you still can. Yeah. And I hadn’t considered [01:26:30] that. And this was this was years ago. I hadn’t considered that I was too young. And [01:26:35] now I’m realising what that guy was saying.

Bhavnish Waghela: And, you know, as we get older, I’m [01:26:40] seeing my friends. Unfortunately, both my parents and my wife’s parents [01:26:45] are still alive. Yeah. Um, and my friends [01:26:50] are losing parents, and that day is going [01:26:55] to happen. So the more as day goes by, we think, you know, I need to.

Payman Langroudi: Spend [01:27:00] more time.

Bhavnish Waghela: Spend more time with him. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Good advice. It’s been such a pleasure [01:27:05] having you. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming all the way as well.

Bhavnish Waghela: Thank you, thank.

Payman Langroudi: You, thank you so much.

Bhavnish Waghela: It’s been great.

[VOICE]: This [01:27:10] is Dental Leaders, the podcast [01:27:15] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:27:20] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav [01:27:25] Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened [01:27:30] to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through [01:27:35] and listening to what we had to say and what our guests has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some [01:27:40] value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And [01:27:45] if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so [01:27:50] so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.