Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by enlighten. Enlighten is an advanced teeth whitening system. Join [00:00:05] us for online training, where I’ll take you through everything you need to know about how [00:00:10] to assess a case quickly, how to use the system, how to talk to patients. Because when you [00:00:15] know you can deliver brilliant results, it’s so much easier to talk about it. To book your course, which takes [00:00:20] only an hour. It’s completely free. Visit enlighten online training.com. [00:00:25] Now let’s get to the pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The podcast [00:00:35] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:40] hosts Payman Langroudi [00:00:45] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Davida [00:00:50] on to the podcast. Rov is a general dentist with a special interest [00:00:55] in periodontics, whose practice is now completely limited to periodontics [00:01:00] and some medico legal expert witness work. It’s a pleasure to have you. [00:01:05]

Sarovi Davda: Thank you for having me.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your name?

Sarovi Davda: Come from where it comes from. Sarovar, which [00:01:10] is lake in Sanskrit. Okay, so yeah, I’m Gujarati in origin. You [00:01:15] are? Yes, a British born. But my parents emigrated from East Africa, my grandparents [00:01:20] from India. So one of those generations chucked out by Idi Amin, the.

Payman Langroudi: Master race, those, [00:01:25] those those guys.

Sarovi Davda: The master. I love that.

Payman Langroudi: Those guys are great. I mean, I’ve had the number of people I’ve had here [00:01:30] whose parents have come from East Africa, and I knew friends in school. They have a can [00:01:35] do attitude. Those African Indians, while.

Sarovi Davda: They do, I don’t know if it’s gone down to our generation. It’s [00:01:40] like kind of we get a bit of the kushti, you know, like everything’s great from our parents. So we take a [00:01:45] seat back. Yeah, maybe. Certainly. I’m not as ambitious as my dad was.

Payman Langroudi: So, so, so tell [00:01:50] me about your childhood. Where were you growing up?

Sarovi Davda: So I was, um, born in [00:01:55] Kingston, like Kingston Hospital and, Huh?

Payman Langroudi: Jamaica. Sorry. [00:02:00]

Sarovi Davda: Very British by the terms. And like, my mum would take me to Richmond Park to see the [00:02:05] dears when I was little. And then actually on advice of relatives that said, basically there are no brown [00:02:10] Gujaratis where you live. You want to bring up your children with the community around you. We [00:02:15] moved to north west London, so I grew up in Northwood.

Payman Langroudi: And what kind of kid were you? Were you very [00:02:20] studious, very compliant, or were you rebel?

Sarovi Davda: No. Very compliant. So, [00:02:25] um, when I was very little primary school, my, my parents were [00:02:30] really worried about my academic or lack of achievement. And my argument would always be, no, [00:02:35] I’m not last in the class because you’re last in class. I’m last but one. Mum and [00:02:40] I had atrocious spelling. I had atrocious like grammar, probably, well, pretty sure, undiagnosed [00:02:45] dyslexia. And I was always dancing and singing. Probably a [00:02:50] little bit of ADHD probably as well. Yeah, undiagnosed. I was always dancing and singing around the house. And [00:02:55] then one summer my mum worked with me over English. I was very creative [00:03:00] and I managed imaginative, and I got that one year, 83% of my English [00:03:05] exam. And that was what really sparked me into kind of essentially people pleasing through academic [00:03:10] achievement. I loved it, and then I became a proper grafter. And I just, [00:03:15] you know, I worked, I worked my ass off.

Payman Langroudi: But then how did dentistry come on [00:03:20] the sort of agenda?

Sarovi Davda: So I really loved art. I loved [00:03:25] English and communicating with people. I wanted to help people. I decided [00:03:30] as a true co-dependent. And I really love biology. So I [00:03:35] took it to my dad and he was like, make a pros and cons list and bring it to me and [00:03:40] did that. And then he said to me, and it was a really life changing kind of conversation. [00:03:45] He goes, what kind of life do you want? So I said, well, I want the kind of [00:03:50] life we have, like lovely holidays. I want to be at home for my children. So I want to be able [00:03:55] to work part time. I want good work. Hours. And I was deciding between medicine and dentistry and [00:04:00] it was really what fit the bill was the life it offered, as well as [00:04:05] the fact that I wanted to use my hands. I loved the art and creative side, so I had to become a surgeon [00:04:10] and, you know, train even further in medicine. So dentistry was the one for me in that way. [00:04:15]

Payman Langroudi: And what did your dad do?

Sarovi Davda: He was an accountant.

Payman Langroudi: But look, you were interested in English. [00:04:20] You were interested in making things with your hands. Yeah. So I’m interested [00:04:25] in this notion of sort of generational evolution. And I get it. You know, with your [00:04:30] dad running away from Idi Amin, was it Idi Amin?

Sarovi Davda: It was my mum, Idi Amin, but my dad was in Tanzania. [00:04:35] Tanzania. And. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So. But with your parents becoming this, that first generation to [00:04:40] leave Africa, I can understand it’s similar with my parents. You know, we had a revolution in Iran, [00:04:45] you know as well. So similarly with my parents, they said they [00:04:50] their advice was to opt for something safe like medicine, dentistry. My brother became a doctor. [00:04:55] I became a dentist here. But the question of your children. Hmm. [00:05:00] And I’m strangely. I’m. I’m. I’m advising my daughter to be a dentist. [00:05:05] Yeah, I am. Because such a great job for a woman. Because you can stop, start, [00:05:10] do four days, do one day. You know, that’s so amazing. If you want to have kids. But [00:05:15] it would be nice, wouldn’t it? If my advice to my kids and your advice to your kids [00:05:20] was be really good at the arts, become [00:05:25] a screenwriter. Like something you could have been, right? I can see, like, you know, you were good at English. [00:05:30] You’re good at talking. You could have gone into that world, but your parents didn’t. I get it, but what’s your [00:05:35] advice to your children?

Sarovi Davda: So my parents and my advice to my children is actually that [00:05:40] in the sense that, okay, so I genuinely believe that I, like the world [00:05:45] today is different to how certainly my I grew up and also what my parents went through. [00:05:50] I do not blame them the slightest for them prioritising for me my financial security [00:05:55] and stability over like go for what you love. But I genuinely believe, [00:06:00] and I could be completely wrong, that I think in this world, if you have the sort of the right [00:06:05] type of work ethic, if you find joy and passion in [00:06:10] what you genuinely love doing, you can make a living from it. But I [00:06:15] think it has to be with your reality that some professions are far harder to isn’t. [00:06:20] Dentistry is a guarantee in some ways. There’s only a certain threshold below you [00:06:25] know which you’ll fall or go. You have a stable ground there. You have a safety net. [00:06:30] Many professions don’t have that safety net. Yeah. So I think that’s something like, especially [00:06:35] as a single woman, I am so damn grateful that I have dentistry. The [00:06:40] financial renumeration I get from it. Also, I happen to absolutely love it. I do. Like, [00:06:45] yes, I could have gone into, I say if I wasn’t a dentist, I’d either be an be an interior designer or [00:06:50] a florist, you know? But I really do love what I do. I wouldn’t change it. So I’ve been lucky. [00:06:55] But I do think, like I tell my children, um, my my daughter wants to be a [00:07:00] dance. She wants to be a dancer. Um, but then there’s the thing is, there are different scopes [00:07:05] within that. So she doesn’t have to be a dancer in the West End. I mean, that has [00:07:10] a finite time. She could open up a dance company. She could like. There. There are. I [00:07:15] think it depends upon your ambition, your mindset and your financial goals. There are places [00:07:20] where all careers can take you. So I do feel like if I can.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, it’s [00:07:25] easy to say now they’re young enough. How old are they again? Tell me.

Sarovi Davda: Nine and 11. [00:07:30]

Payman Langroudi: Nine, 11. It’s nice to talk about these things when they’re 911. But then it comes [00:07:35] to, you know, what subjects to get to do an A level. Mhm. Um, [00:07:40] and if she said look I want to do drama art and dance. Yeah. And [00:07:45] a bit of you might come out at that point and say, what about biology, chemistry and maths? [00:07:50]

Sarovi Davda: Like a bit of me, I’ll be screaming inside. Like, I mean, I’m really fighting my introjected beliefs [00:07:55] here. Like when I say I give this advice, it’s not without claws. It’s not without me. Like looking [00:08:00] at myself and thinking, my goodness, something’s really coming up within you. Yeah, but I [00:08:05] think that’s my that’s where my work is, like, as in, so, you know, there’s this beautiful poem [00:08:10] that I recite most mornings by Kahlil Gibran, which is about children, and [00:08:15] it says, you know, my children are not my children. They’re the sons and daughters of life’s longing for itself. [00:08:20] They come through me, but they’re not from me. And though they are with me, though they belong not to me. [00:08:25] A couple of more verses, but it’s like, I don’t I wouldn’t say I, [00:08:30] I live in that attitude, but it’s an aspiration. And so if I can align my actions [00:08:35] with that aspiration, I just hope I’m, you know, doing good. [00:08:40]

Payman Langroudi: While we’re.

Sarovi Davda: On it.

Payman Langroudi: That’s it. While we’re on it, what kind of a mom are you? Are you, like, good cop [00:08:45] or bad cop, are you? Because I’ve noticed.

Sarovi Davda: That. People pleaser. Of course I’m a good cop. [00:08:50]

Payman Langroudi: But then. But then. Do you need a bad cop as well? Like, do [00:08:55] you recognise that with your parents? Was one of them good cop? One the bad cop? Was it two bad cops? [00:09:00] My Africa?

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. In some. Okay. You know, my mom was definitely this, [00:09:05] like, the very typical soft, um, nurturing caregiver. [00:09:10] And my dad was more the disciplinarian, if there was one, for sure. They took those typical roles. [00:09:15]

Payman Langroudi: Um, well, you say typical. My mom was like the washy.

Sarovi Davda: Okay. [00:09:20]

Payman Langroudi: And my dad was my buddy, you know? And in my house, I’m the good cop and my wife [00:09:25] is the bad cop.

Sarovi Davda: No way. That’s so interesting, because that’s obviously my upbringing. That’s clouding my. This [00:09:30] is the norm. Okay? This is my norm then.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly, exactly.

Sarovi Davda: Thank you for that. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So. So [00:09:35] you are good cop.

Sarovi Davda: I’m. I’m good cop. But. Okay, so I loved taking [00:09:40] the good cop and left, leaving my ex-husband to be the bad cop role. Because that’s [00:09:45] where I was super comfy, because, hey, I’m the one that can look like the good cop. But I but [00:09:50] what’s helped me is in with the divorce is that I have to be I there’s [00:09:55] good cop with boundaries because boundaries. I think I’ve realised a part of being a good [00:10:00] cop as well. So it’s like healthy boundaries with it hopefully put [00:10:05] into in from a sense of love, from a place of love, with love, but not without [00:10:10] discipline, because then that’s just chaos, frankly. So yeah, I would say I’m I’m. [00:10:15]

Payman Langroudi: Are you happy to talk about divorce?

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. So it affects 40% [00:10:20] of us. So. Hey, I’m not alone.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. No. Of course. So did you then change when? When [00:10:25] when the separation happened? When? When your ex went away from the house. [00:10:30] Did you then have to compensate and become a bit of a worse cop?

Sarovi Davda: I [00:10:35] think I had to learn for both myself. But as a mother, for my children. [00:10:40] Yeah. What boundaries were. I was pretty in some ways boundaryless [00:10:45] in many, many ways. And so I had to take a really good, long, hard look at myself and [00:10:50] figure out what I contributed to the breakdown of my marriage. And I [00:10:55] guess better myself as a person or, you know, yeah, I’d be able to look after [00:11:00] me more and others.

Payman Langroudi: I want to do a whole series. I want to do a series. I’ve been asking people [00:11:05] now, a series on. I think it’s quite prevalent in dentistry, where [00:11:10] the woman is the primary earner in the house. It’s [00:11:15] more in dentistry than in a lot of other areas because, you know, dentists can earn. And [00:11:20] I also see it with hygienists often the primary earner in their [00:11:25] house. And is it that that causes tension? Because [00:11:30] I always thought of myself as a very progressive sort of, you know, like anything goes [00:11:35] everyone’s you know, I thought asking this question was quite sort of old fashioned and, [00:11:40] and and sort of, um, you know, chauvinistic to say, well, [00:11:45] why shouldn’t a woman earn more than a man? Why should that even affect anything? But when I look in my [00:11:50] sort of friends circle and people I know who where the woman earns more than the man, it [00:11:55] does. I know 1 or 2 situations where it works, but often that becomes [00:12:00] an issue. Anything to say on that?

Sarovi Davda: Yeah, I think that [00:12:05] if it is an issue, I guess my attitude is it’s.

Payman Langroudi: You earning more than him. Let’s start with that.

Sarovi Davda: Is [00:12:10] any in employment? Yes. In the sense, yeah. Um, but then he [00:12:15] had many investments from investing real young in a very smart way. So, [00:12:20] um, but I do think it I wouldn’t be surprised if it [00:12:25] caused an issue in many, many arenas because we’re still evolving [00:12:30] from our, like, brain where, you know, hunter gatherer versus like, [00:12:35] caregiver. And it takes I don’t know how many years it years it takes. But [00:12:40] it takes like six generations for alcoholism to affect affect, like alcoholism, for example. [00:12:45] Don’t know where we want this, but it affects six generations. There’s still part of our brain that, you know, if we’re left [00:12:50] out of a tribe, that part of the brain is activated where we believe we’re in physical pain. [00:12:55] So our brain has so much evolving to do. So if it’s that the man [00:13:00] is earning less, the woman’s earning more and breeding the children. So until the day [00:13:05] that men can actually bear children, I that’s a lot of role to take up in a [00:13:10] equal dynamic. That’s a that’s not equal. You know, so I can imagine [00:13:15] if it’s not bringing home the bacon unless you’re raised very differently, that’s [00:13:20] hard. That’s really in the same way that it may be hard for me, like brought [00:13:25] up in a, again, a typical way with there’s still this, you know, sausage with electricity brain, essentially. [00:13:30] Um, not having a role in the children like when I was in the marriage, [00:13:35] you know, in my mind it was It was like the kids are kind of mostly, you know, that’s mostly my [00:13:40] department. Yeah. And so as much as I can say that’s changed now, you know, I’ve, [00:13:45] I’ve. But I was essentially not really seeking, um, equality in a relationship. I was seeking, you [00:13:50] know, you take this role and I take this role and. Yeah, [00:13:55] it’s very hard. So if it’s hard for me, it’s hard for a man as well. I can imagine. [00:14:00]

Payman Langroudi: Tell me. I don’t want to. Over, over, over spend my time [00:14:05] on, on divorce and and all of that. Yeah, but but tell me other things that [00:14:10] went through your head. I mean, for instance, did you have a feeling of failure [00:14:15] or shame or.

Sarovi Davda: So I think initially [00:14:20] it was a huge grief and disappointment because I always imagined, you know, sitting on a park [00:14:25] bench hand in hand.

Payman Langroudi: Old lady.

Sarovi Davda: Really old, holding hands. I don’t imagine [00:14:30] anyone goes into marriage taking vows and then thinking, you get divorced. But, you know, I [00:14:35] really like, especially the culture that I guess we’re brought up in. Divorce is just not even [00:14:40] an option. It’s like not viewed upon as a viable option. So initially I [00:14:45] felt a huge sense of grief and sadness. I [00:14:50] also kind of knew inside with each step I took, that it was [00:14:55] absolutely the right decision for me. And weirdly, [00:15:00] and I cannot believe I can attribute this only to a higher power, [00:15:05] that I now have huge pride in the sense that it’s one of the most [00:15:10] empowering decisions I’ve ever made in my life. And I have, I can genuinely say, because [00:15:15] I’m touching my heart right now, not a molecule of shame in me about that decision, but it wasn’t instant. [00:15:20]

Payman Langroudi: At the time.

Sarovi Davda: It was at the time there was some sense of, yeah, [00:15:25] just sadness. I don’t know about failure. I’m trying to think about that. No, [00:15:30] because I was too much in the delusion of it’s not my not my fault, it’s your fault. [00:15:35] And that was a delusion. You know, it’s never like one good cop, bad cop. It’s never actually as [00:15:40] black and white as that. But I think I was safe in that delusion that, well, I didn’t, you know, this is not my [00:15:45] fault. I tried my hardest, you know, victim victimhood. Martyrdom was a big, like, [00:15:50] adapted tool for me. So I didn’t feel that sense of failure because for me, it was like I gave [00:15:55] it my all and it failed because of you, which was not the truth, you know? So then I [00:16:00] guess I bypassed the failure bit because I moved into an understanding of what I contributed, [00:16:05] taking both responsibility, but not necessarily like blame. I don’t think the [00:16:10] blame is useful, but to accountability is very useful. And that’s empowering.

Payman Langroudi: Does that book isn’t there [00:16:15] that the you know, Mohamed Hadid’s got a girlfriend, she’s written a book. It’s [00:16:20] called divorce as an opportunity.

Sarovi Davda: Oh, really? I haven’t read it, but I.

Payman Langroudi: Forget [00:16:25] her name.

Sarovi Davda: I really deeply resonate with with the title. Yeah, absolutely. [00:16:30]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s move on. Let’s move on. Um, when you got to guys, it was [00:16:35] guys.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What was that like? So was it like. Oh, big [00:16:40] city.

Sarovi Davda: Big city. No, no. Well, I was a London girl already, in a sense. And you know what? When [00:16:45] I went to guys, everyone went back home for the weekend. Like to take their washing [00:16:50] and mum and dad. So it was kind of like. You’re joking. So it was [00:16:55] kind of like going to school in that sense, but I remember. Do you know what happened on one of the first days we were there? So, [00:17:00] okay, I was this little perfectionist, worked my ass off, did really well at GCSE. [00:17:05] So kind of thought, okay, I can do it and then just scrape by with A-levels. I got three B’s, which was [00:17:10] what was needed to get into dental school. And they sat us in this lecture hall and [00:17:15] they said, those of you who have got three B’s all below [00:17:20] are the bottom of the pile. Essentially this is what I took from it. They’re like, that is [00:17:25] the lowest tier. This is a really hard course, and you’re going to have to work really hard. Everyone. [00:17:30] And this is the lowest. And I was just sat there thinking, oh my God, I [00:17:35] feel shite. I feel really bad. I’m not used to being like the bottom of [00:17:40] the fear.

Payman Langroudi: Of God into you in dental school, and it can’t be a coincidence that we had it. You had. It was [00:17:45] just like the way the course is.

Sarovi Davda: Okay. Should I tell you something else I have in dental school? Yeah. Okay. People [00:17:50] can’t believe this when I share it. So we are young newbies. Uh, we were sat in [00:17:55] this again. We were called for a sexual health lecture in our first couple [00:18:00] of weeks, freshers week. And we sat there this big, like, balcony, [00:18:05] um, seats. And then the kind of the stools, you know. What year was this? It was the first [00:18:10] week.

Payman Langroudi: Freshers week. But what year was it?

Sarovi Davda: Oh. First year.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but what year was that?

Sarovi Davda: Oh, sorry. 1997. [00:18:15] Yeah, 1997. We were sat there and there was this guy, older [00:18:20] guy, giving a lecture on sexual health, and he said, I’m going to take an anonymous survey. Could [00:18:25] we close our eyes and everyone who is a virgin, put your Put your hands up. Well, [00:18:30] everyone who’s had less than five sexual partners, something like that. Who has had more than sexual. [00:18:35] You know, all anonymous. Hands up. So everyone’s hands were raised appropriately.

Payman Langroudi: And no [00:18:40] one could see. No one. I bet there was some peeking.

Sarovi Davda: You wait, you wait.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sarovi Davda: So then [00:18:45] at the end of freshers week, what do we see? Showing a video of the lecture. [00:18:50] They’d taken a mature student to give a fake sexual health [00:18:55] lecture that was then had older years sitting, watching the balcony with their eyes [00:19:00] opening open and taking bets on whose cherries they could pop.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness. [00:19:05]

Sarovi Davda: So.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my.

Sarovi Davda: Goodness. If you want to call that out in the podcast. But [00:19:10] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Today that would be like a police thing.

Sarovi Davda: Today that would be all over the Daily [00:19:15] Mail, the mirror.

Payman Langroudi: You name it, you’re outraged. You must have been.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. I was like crushed. I was like, [00:19:20] you know, I mean, I was a proper little innocent, you know, just. [00:19:25] Yeah. Oh, no. And I remember walking in on guy’s bar. This [00:19:30] is probably not what you expected to hear when you asked the question. I walked in on guy’s bar and this [00:19:35] was like the this is back in the day where they do these, like, dares. I can’t remember what it called. They called [00:19:40] it like an initiation type thing. And I had never seen a male below the waist [00:19:45] ever at that point. And literally I walked into a guy’s bar and [00:19:50] people were pissing all over the bar. Like with the.

Payman Langroudi: Rugby, kind of.

Sarovi Davda: The.

Payman Langroudi: Rugby. [00:19:55]

Sarovi Davda: They were eating like, um, livers or live hearts, whatever. [00:20:00] They were vomiting in each other’s mouths. I was honestly, I was like outraged. I was like, what [00:20:05] have I stepped into from a really like, sort of tiny little.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:20:10] know, guy’s sheltered. You know, you do know guys, rugby club is the oldest rugby [00:20:15] club in the world, is it not the oldest. Not the oldest university rugby club. It’s [00:20:20] the oldest rugby club in the world. So based on that they were they could do whatever they wanted, [00:20:25] you know. And in rugby that’s kind of the direction sometimes it goes in the partying. [00:20:30]

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. So that was the first.

Payman Langroudi: Thing.

Sarovi Davda: I was exposed to. I was shocked. Yeah. Safe to say I [00:20:35] was shocked.

Payman Langroudi: And the workload. Did you find the workload shocking? I did.

Sarovi Davda: I remember [00:20:40] I must have, because in the second year I remember it being really hard. Where that’s when I started [00:20:45] developing Tmjd. Mhm. Yeah. I like I had, I had such [00:20:50] bad jaw rake I could barely open my mouth. So I was really stressed in second year and that [00:20:55] was a really hard year. I remember second year and probably fifth year I imagine. Yeah that [00:21:00] was stressful.

Payman Langroudi: But then do you have other like did you party? Did you just put your head down [00:21:05] and work? No I did. It’s a transition isn’t it. There’s a there’s a reinvention when you go to university. [00:21:10] Right now I’m trying to persuade my son leave London. Yes. Because, you know. [00:21:15] And the thing is, he wants to go for engineering. And Imperial is one [00:21:20] building down from his school. And and so that and you know, they want to put Imperial [00:21:25] down. I’m saying it’s just a massive error, you know, go somewhere else, leave and reinvent. [00:21:30]

Sarovi Davda: Campus as well. When you get to be with other students, like not just dentists. I think that’s kind of fun, right?

Payman Langroudi: But also [00:21:35] London is I mean, London is so hard if you’re doing really well, but it’s particularly hard if you’re a [00:21:40] student. Right. But then also he knows London, right. You know, go somewhere you don’t [00:21:45] know where no one knows you, that sort of thing, you know. Yeah, but go on. So how [00:21:50] did you get on? Did you, did you enjoy it in the end? Was it fun? Do you have friends from that era? [00:21:55] Well, Lali.

Sarovi Davda: Lali. But she wasn’t in my year, so I should actually, um, [00:22:00] some of the. Yeah, a couple of friends I kept in touch with. Um, a really good friends of mine [00:22:05] in the first year, and this probably happens to many people, but I, I did not [00:22:10] have I kind of just experienced the back end of female [00:22:15] fallouts and stuff. So my friends in the first year weren’t the friends I kept for life. [00:22:20] And then I guess I must have had it on a subconscious level if not conscious that right. I’m not [00:22:25] going to be friends with girls like girls are not safe. I’m something so I made friends with in my [00:22:30] in my tutor group. Two guys I called us Harry, Hermione and Ron, and [00:22:35] they were my best friends in the world, one of whom I actually ended up going out [00:22:40] with for a good couple of years. And, um, and [00:22:45] we had the best time. We had a really wonderful time. So I have very good memories, [00:22:50] actually.

Payman Langroudi: People sitting here saying that university was one of the hardest times and they didn’t have a [00:22:55] good time. And I just just take it for granted.

Sarovi Davda: Everyone has that more recently, would you say, or back in the day, is it harder now [00:23:00] than it was before?

Payman Langroudi: Well, harder mentally for them. And what’s interesting is in our day, [00:23:05] there was no, um, I’m a bit older than you, but in our day there was no social media. And [00:23:10] so university was an opportunity to kind of see the world. Whereas [00:23:15] today, you know, they already know what’s going on in the world. And [00:23:20] so university isn’t as much of a leap into the big wide world as [00:23:25] it was for us.

Sarovi Davda: But when you say no, the world like, how much can you know it from a screen, [00:23:30] right? It’s like I could watch on the National Geographic, the Himalayas, I know. So is that so? What [00:23:35] do you mean by like, they know the world? Like they kind of already aware of stuff, so things aren’t eye opening or.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah, [00:23:40] yeah. Like.

Payman Langroudi: Who did we know we were we were in school. [00:23:45] We had our friends around us in school.

Sarovi Davda: We know people like.

Payman Langroudi: Just just yeah, [00:23:50] my my my my son might be, like, messaging some guy in Peru about [00:23:55] a rocket because he’s interested in rockets, right. You know what I mean?

Sarovi Davda: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: We didn’t [00:24:00] have that opportunity.

Sarovi Davda: No, no, we had a very small world. Small world. Whereas then it was like [00:24:05] magnified massively in university. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: The university.

Payman Langroudi: Was what you.

Sarovi Davda: Said.

Payman Langroudi: About the course where [00:24:10] there are others. Yeah. You’re absolutely right about that. Because, you know, some of my friends were these law [00:24:15] students and, and so on, and they had a whole different outlook on on life. [00:24:20] You know, they had only like four hours of lectures and loads of library and stuff. It was just a different type [00:24:25] of person altogether. Yeah. And so that was interesting. But what I’m saying is I’ve [00:24:30] had people here, many people here. So university was one of the darkest parts of [00:24:35] there. And it is sad. It is sad.

Sarovi Davda: I’m saddened by that. Yeah. Because for me [00:24:40] it was it was a really great opportunity to like get. It’s like having fun because my mum gave me strict instructions [00:24:45] at university. She goes, I don’t want you bringing home any A’s. No A’s. I want you [00:24:50] to just scrape by.

Payman Langroudi: That’s different.

Sarovi Davda: That’s very different to Asian. Asian upbringing. [00:24:55] Typically, like, you know, stereotype. My parents, I thank them so [00:25:00] often, so much for not putting any academic pressure [00:25:05] on me. In fact, my mum would be my like, she’d she’d tease us down. When we were [00:25:10] revising for A-levels, my mum would always say, I’ve got your favourite movie downstairs, like. [00:25:15] And we’d be like, mom, stop it. We were. She was so great and we [00:25:20] were so self-motivated. For whatever reason, that she didn’t need to kind of she [00:25:25] she was the one that was instigating us to take our foot off the pedal. So when we went to university, she was [00:25:30] like, right, you got to where you need to get to. That’s it. Don’t try that hard. So [00:25:35] I didn’t have that pressure. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Did you have any idea.

Payman Langroudi: About perio back then or [00:25:40] specialising or. You know, this is.

[TRANSITION]: A it’s a common.

Payman Langroudi: Question, [00:25:45] right? Where I’ve got loads of younger dentists contact me and say what [00:25:50] should I do. Yeah.

Sarovi Davda: And yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And my advice is a bit opposite to most [00:25:55] right. Most people say do a bit of everything. See what turns you on. Yeah. And [00:26:00] then choose one of those things. Um, and the way they normally say is to go to the NHS, do that for [00:26:05] a couple of years, get your wings, you know, get your, get your experience of all those different [00:26:10] things and then decide. My, my. I say the opposite. I say decide [00:26:15] immediately.

Sarovi Davda: Really?

Payman Langroudi: Pick something. Yeah. And then you [00:26:20] end up enjoying whatever you’re good at, right? Like you enjoy. Because you’re good at it, not because you’re specifically [00:26:25] a good gardener. I mean, if you were good at it, though, you’d enjoy that. Um, I fully [00:26:30] zoomed in on one molecule. Hydrogen peroxide. Yeah. And I enjoy that.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:26:35]

Payman Langroudi: So that’s that’s what I’m saying. I’m saying decide as early as possible and and then chase [00:26:40] it. What’s your advice?

Sarovi Davda: Well, okay. Going on my own personal experience, [00:26:45] I really wanted to be an orthodontist because I had I had I mean, it was amazing [00:26:50] author, but I yeah, I had orthodontic treatment, got really interested. I thought, that’s what I want to be. I found [00:26:55] it is boring as hell at university. I honestly thought.

[TRANSITION]: It so badly.

Payman Langroudi: Though.

[TRANSITION]: Come [00:27:00] on.

Sarovi Davda: Uh, it’s pretty dynamic, but.

[TRANSITION]: No, no.

Payman Langroudi: But in undergrad.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. [00:27:05]

[TRANSITION]: People love.

Sarovi Davda: Okay, so I didn’t like.

[TRANSITION]: Don’t they?

Payman Langroudi: Everyone who does ortho loves [00:27:10] ortho.

Sarovi Davda: Do they? Yes. Well, that’s why they do it. You know, it’s like, that’s a selective [00:27:15] bias, isn’t it? Surely. So I wanted to do ortho and they got to university and decided, okay, no [00:27:20] way. Not for me. I then I loved children so much, I was like, I want to be a dentist. [00:27:25] But of course, I mean, you’re the most hated role. Like, well, no, maybe not actually, [00:27:30] but just it’s not easy dealing with kids and and inflicting stuff [00:27:35] on them. It’s not like having a facial. I always say to my patients. So that went aside. And then [00:27:40] I was deciding between endo because I love the kind of the precision and it’s almost like [00:27:45] a bit meditative in some ways. I like that. And, you know, and then perio [00:27:50] really came about because of two things I love communicating. [00:27:55] And it’s I love that whole empowering patients, inspiring [00:28:00] for like, life change because it’s not just a one thing thing like, you know, [00:28:05] oh, I do the best débridement and I’ll get the best results. Nah, it’s mostly patient based, [00:28:10] right? So it’s about psychology. So I love that aspect, but it was really fill our and Graham [00:28:15] smart that you know, if you’re looking at those forks in the road of life which have completely [00:28:20] changed or shaped the direction of life, it’s down to those two human beings. I [00:28:25] give thanks to them, you know, regularly. Um, I went on a course very [00:28:30] early on, a couple of years after graduating, taught by these two Periodontists [00:28:35] Graham smart fellow. And they were just such lovely blokes. They [00:28:40] made they had a very.

[TRANSITION]: Can do attitude.

Sarovi Davda: Very passionate, very [00:28:45] forward thinking, very can do because they taught and they just inspired [00:28:50] me. And I kept in contact with them after the course, basically. Um, I sent them a book, um, [00:28:55] my one of my love languages, definitely gift giving. So I sent them a book and kept in contact. [00:29:00] It was Phil who then inspired me to do the MSC, and Phil, who [00:29:05] invited both Ian Dunn and I on board to take Graham Smart’s place when he passed away, [00:29:10] very sadly.

Payman Langroudi: I see you did a Eastman.

Sarovi Davda: Yes. The Eastman.

[TRANSITION]: In [00:29:15] Bellevue.

Sarovi Davda: Actually, it was in restorative practice. But then my thesis, which was supervised [00:29:20] by Phil, was Império, and it was all on, which is so relevant to the Dental legal [00:29:25] field, prognosis and periodontics. But the. I say but okay, I’m saying [00:29:30] this actually, and there’s some self-seeking here. There’s like, um, I did my [00:29:35] MSC exam the day after giving the day I gave birth. And [00:29:40] I really wish like and it’s not regret I wouldn’t do anything differently. But [00:29:45] like my thesis was so awesome, but I didn’t publish it. I was just too engulfed [00:29:50] in motherhood.

[TRANSITION]: Too busy, too busy.

Sarovi Davda: And Phil said, you know, publish it, publish it. He [00:29:55] even said, I want you to write my book. That’s, you know, periodontics, the whole prognosis [00:30:00] chapter. I just never I didn’t do those things. I was too engulfed in mother motherhood. I was [00:30:05] pregnant like six months after giving, nine months after giving birth to my to my first, and I just [00:30:10] didn’t go on with that. But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: While we’re on it, then while we’re on it.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What? [00:30:15] I mean, it’s an unfair question, right? But but in in [00:30:20] a nutshell, what does the GDP need to know regarding prognosis? How do [00:30:25] I know whether this tooth is saveable?

[TRANSITION]: Brilliant question.

Payman Langroudi: Treatment or [00:30:30] not.

Sarovi Davda: So I’d say, number one, what we need to know is, um, we’re rubbish. So [00:30:35] we’re rubbish at predicting the future. So McGuire et al did a series of studies looking at number of patients, [00:30:40] um, where essentially what they did was they attributed to the teeth, uh, [00:30:45] clinical parameters that we normally rely upon when it comes to periodontal prognosis. So pocket [00:30:50] depth, bone levels, etc., etc., all the things you know, you’d think are bog standard to predict [00:30:55] prognosis. And using those clinical parameters when it came to a dodgy [00:31:00] tooth. We are right. Hardly ever. Basically [00:31:05] 50%. Not hardly ever. Sorry so 50% of the time. And when they are good by [00:31:10] all parameters, let’s say good bone levels, no period pockets, no infra bony defects, no mobility [00:31:15] like good. Then we’re at 80% of the time. Now, this is an old study, right. And it wasn’t a randomised [00:31:20] controlled or anything. So we had to actually have very many really high quality studies long [00:31:25] longitudinal on prognosis. But based upon that it’s essentially you have a dodgy [00:31:30] tooth. And if it’s a 50 over 50 chance, you may as well toss a coin. Patient walks [00:31:35] into my surgery. I say it’s going to last. Patient walks into next door surgery. It’s not. [00:31:40] Take it out now. And that’s the patient’s tooth you’re dealing with. And this is what I found in [00:31:45] my thesis in the sense in my in my study. So Phil and I did a questionnaire [00:31:50] showing the same x rays with no clinical data, but to thousands [00:31:55] of delegates on courses and in the same room of 30 [00:32:00] delegates that we’d be teaching same x ray would have at least one [00:32:05] person saying it’s for the bin, this tooth and another person for him saying it’s going to last [00:32:10] ten years or more.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm.

Sarovi Davda: And that’s with, you know, a small select. But then it was a [00:32:15] large number of delegates. We have very very different views upon [00:32:20] prognosis. So that’s the number one thing. Very heterogeneous in our views. I [00:32:25] don’t have any clinical parameters that form what we call a really safe [00:32:30] basis upon which to assign a really accurate prognosis. The second thing [00:32:35] I’d say to know as a GDP is that it’s mostly driven. And we all kind of know this now [00:32:40] based on patient factors. So it’s about oral hygiene, genetics, diabetes, [00:32:45] smoking all those things. Versus and this is what the evidence [00:32:50] shows that most of us base our clinical um prognosis on radiographs alone. [00:32:55] That’s the most influential. Weems et al. 2013 I think 2003, [00:33:00] they did a study showing that, you know, what is the most influential factor in Factor in prognosis, and people almost exclusively [00:33:05] rely upon radiographic bone levels. And that’s not where that’s not where the evidence lies. [00:33:10] So look at patient driven factors. So those are kind of, you know, I’d say probably two big [00:33:15] take homes when it comes to prognosis. And also because based on that sorry. Third thing [00:33:20] give the tooth a chance. So give the tooth a chance if you can. Unless it’s really really [00:33:25] short, you know, and you kind of know when it’s about to be sneezed at the mouth, give it a chance [00:33:30] because you just never know.

Payman Langroudi: But then do you also see that in your [00:33:35] clinical practice, in that there are some teeth that you think don’t have a chance and they survive? And the opposite.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah, [00:33:40] yeah I.

[TRANSITION]: Do. So there are very.

Payman Langroudi: There aren’t very reliable [00:33:45] prognosis prognostic indicators then.

Sarovi Davda: Well there are in terms of smoking and diabetes. And [00:33:50] those are reliable prognostic indicators in the sense that we have the evidence. You know you smoke ten [00:33:55] cigarettes or more a day. You’re five times more likely to lose your teeth or whatever. And these things I share with the [00:34:00] patient. So if I have a patient that’s got like, let’s say 80% bone loss and they smoke [00:34:05] like a chimney and they have uncontrolled diabetes and they’re obese and they’re got pants or hygiene, [00:34:10] and they continue to do that. Sure enough, they’re going to lose a tooth. That’s very [00:34:15] predictable in that way. But the thing is, if they’re modifiable, those risk factors, [00:34:20] then who knows what the future holds. And I have seen teeth with patients that fully engage [00:34:25] and change hang on far longer than you’d ever think possible. So it really [00:34:30] very much depends upon that. And also periodontal therapy, of course, you know, which is part and parcel [00:34:35] of it.

Payman Langroudi: And you know, the the question of bony infill.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:34:40] mean by now I think we kind of think, yeah, it’s a real thing. It happens. [00:34:45] Yeah. Traditionally that wasn’t the case. Right. That wasn’t not.

Sarovi Davda: So this is something that, [00:34:50] again, Phil enlightened me with. Um, that when I was at university, bony infill was just [00:34:55] a myth. It was like, I remember even talking to one of my MSC, and I [00:35:00] And I did my MSC. I finished in 2013. Um, I spoke [00:35:05] to Bonini, Phil, and the way that I was managing Perry at the time with one of my MSC tutors, and he [00:35:10] said, quote, and what are you going to do next? Rob magic crystals over the pockets [00:35:15] and hope they heal. And I.

Payman Langroudi: Was like.

Sarovi Davda: Then I had radiographic evidence [00:35:20] and there were studies like quark and you know, there were studies coming out saying that you can get radiographic [00:35:25] bone infill. And now it’s like we all accept it and it’s like a kind of a given. You [00:35:30] do certain things.

Payman Langroudi: Is it taught now in undergrad.

Sarovi Davda: It’s taught by okay. So I mean, I’m [00:35:35] not an undergrad. I know what’s taught at undergrad, to be fair, but Louis-jeune and Barley’s work, tortellinis [00:35:40] work is very well accepted across the field in the sense that not not in it has to be certain. [00:35:45] It has to be an infra bony defects. You know, you’re not gonna get horizontal bone loss with certain criteria, etc. [00:35:50] but that’s getting more that we are developing. And this still needs more evidence, but more reliable [00:35:55] ways of getting bony infill around, you know, your clot stability. Essentially that’s what it [00:36:00] is. So it’s and and looking at that, it’s in fact the Luigi Nibali [00:36:05] I went to a course of his recently and he was saying out of the three things he did like this thing, I [00:36:10] can I remember all three. He said, what’s the most influential factor of whether you’re going to get bone infill? Is [00:36:15] it one the patient? Two the anatomy, the actual site. [00:36:20] Or three something else. And it was the it was the site. So it’s not and I thought it [00:36:25] was about the patient. Yeah. But actually that’s the most influential. It’s a type of defect. You have the [00:36:30] site and that will predict whether you get more likely or not to get bone infill.

Payman Langroudi: Can we talk about [00:36:35] floss?

Sarovi Davda: Because can we talk about a.

Payman Langroudi: Bugbear of mine? Yeah. Yeah. I [00:36:40] think we should not teach floss to anyone. Why ask me why?

Sarovi Davda: Okay. Why [00:36:45] why why why? Because.

Payman Langroudi: Because firstly, it’s very difficult to teach [00:36:50] and no one learns. Yeah, sort of thing. You know what I mean? Of course. Now, I’m sure there’s hygienist [00:36:55] around the country saying I teach it well and people learn. Yeah, but secondly, it’s [00:37:00] crap, isn’t it? Floss compared to interdental brushing. And then the [00:37:05] hygienist will say something like, oh, we teach both. Yeah, but since we know the patient’s capacity for learning [00:37:10] isn’t that great for me? Don’t talk about floss at all. Only [00:37:15] talk about interdental brushes. At least they can get into dental brushes a bit more right than [00:37:20] they. Because people struggle with those two, right? I mean, you must have had this, right. You you know, you can get into dental [00:37:25] brush, into the furcation and stuff, right? You can do all sorts of fun things if you really teach a patient. But [00:37:30] I feel like floss just confuses the picture and it ain’t that great. Because, [00:37:35] you know, the other thing about floss, this is my personal bugbear. Where [00:37:40] does where does plaque build? Right in in, you know, the root surface isn’t this beautiful [00:37:45] smooth thing is it. It’s it’s an undulating plaque builds in those rough [00:37:50] areas and floss doesn’t get into those rough areas. You know, it floss would [00:37:55] be all right if they managed to get it on either side. And it was a perfect circular root [00:38:00] surface, but it’s none of those things. The root surface is in and out. Plus can’t get into those nooks and crannies [00:38:05] here, so why even bother? Why bother with floors? I think it’s more a legacy thing. [00:38:10]

Sarovi Davda: Okay, so I would agree with you, but also the studies back you. So we’ve known this since 2016. [00:38:15] It was the world.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve known this since 1995. Back to what [00:38:20] we were.

Sarovi Davda: Talking in terms of the studies. It’s not just a study. It’s like, you know, the world of workshop.

Payman Langroudi: It’s overwhelming. [00:38:25]

Sarovi Davda: It’s like this was in the In the world workshop or the or the I. [00:38:30]

Payman Langroudi: Remember.

Sarovi Davda: The workshop.

Payman Langroudi: In Europe, didn’t it. The floors.

Sarovi Davda: Like. Yeah. So it’s like the [00:38:35] advice is based upon that evidence that getting interdental brush wherever you can and only floss where [00:38:40] you can. But for all those reasons, I personally, again, backed by the evidence [00:38:45] as well, is I’d agree with you. Would you floss is much more technique sensitive. It’s really difficult. [00:38:50] Where is it most difficult? Where you most need it It posteriorly. Incidentally. Um, [00:38:55] and yeah, as brushes are far easier in the sense that yes, of course people [00:39:00] do have problems, but it’s, it’s usually a technique thing that you can get through, get [00:39:05] via different tools, different techniques, whatever. You know, I don’t generally I can [00:39:10] only think of one patient that I who just wasn’t able to get [00:39:15] interdental brushes in. And then, you know, you can go to I’d rather go to inter [00:39:20] pics even if I have to downgrade. I don’t love them at all. I have not found, [00:39:25] I have to say yeah, they don’t have as better as good a biofilm disruption as the interdental brushes, but I’d rather [00:39:30] do that than floss because if they’re struggling with interdental brushes, I think flossing is even harder.

Payman Langroudi: But if we go [00:39:35] out in the street and ask 100 people, they’ll all know about floss.

Sarovi Davda: I think it’s I know, [00:39:40] I think.

Payman Langroudi: That’s weird, isn’t it? We managed to get that story out very well, even though it’s not a great story.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. [00:39:45] You know, I think it’s it’s almost easier to roll off the tongue brush and floss. It’s [00:39:50] like monosyllabic, isn’t it? Isn’t it? Whereas interdental brush. We need to create a small word for it.

Payman Langroudi: If you if [00:39:55] you ask.

Sarovi Davda: 100 people on the street.

Payman Langroudi: About interdental brushing.

Sarovi Davda: I.

Payman Langroudi: Know only the 5% who’ve had perio [00:40:00] disease will know anything about it.

Sarovi Davda: It’s crazy. I do think we need to re-educate like [00:40:05] the entire profession to personally. I mean, that might be a bit controversial, but honestly, [00:40:10] because it’s evidence backed. Step away from the floss. Floss only when you can’t get into dental brushes. [00:40:15]

Payman Langroudi: Listen, floss has a an amount of good. Yeah, an amount of good.

Sarovi Davda: Brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: My [00:40:20] my my point is, there’s.

Sarovi Davda: Only a limited.

Payman Langroudi: Amount of time. Yeah. So trying to teach [00:40:25] both is an error.

Sarovi Davda: So I always say to patients when they come to me, I always say, right, bring in every [00:40:30] first lesson. Bring in every single thing you’ve you’ve been used using throughout your whole life. [00:40:35] And we’re going to debunk all the myths and misnomers because and this is what I say to [00:40:40] them, I want you to get the maximum results in the shortest amount of time possible. [00:40:45] And the first thing I usually do is say, ditch the floss. Because the other thing is, you know, when [00:40:50] we say interested, we say use the floss where you can’t get into dental brushes. Right. So [00:40:55] where you can get. Yeah. Practically everywhere. No. Apart from lower anterior teeth, how many [00:41:00] times on a non-smoker have we actually seen that there’s a worse periodontal affected region? How [00:41:05] many times? So if a patient is like, I’m not going to be able to spend this amount of time, [00:41:10] I don’t often have that many patients resisting by the time they’ve come to me. But I’m like, even [00:41:15] if it means getting to the back brilliantly and leaving the anteriors that have [00:41:20] no bone loss, I’m willing to trash the floss completely and concentrate what [00:41:25] you have the disease, you know. So I’m on the same page as you for sure.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Where are you? On [00:41:30] a guided biofilm therapy.

Sarovi Davda: Where am I on it in terms of do I like it, do [00:41:35] I, I.

Payman Langroudi: What do you say about it? What’s your feeling on it?

Sarovi Davda: Okay. Well, the whole point is to disrupt [00:41:40] the biofilm in terms of dnpr. I’m glad we’ve we’ve changed our views. If [00:41:45] it does the job, great, because it’s very technical. It’s very patient friendly. [00:41:50] So I do have it in my practice. And yeah, very comfortable. And there was some debate [00:41:55] before the S3 guidance around implants and peri implantitis was brought out last October. [00:42:00] In terms of there was a there was a leaning towards Gbdt when it comes to [00:42:05] implants, but that’s actually we haven’t got enough evidence for it. So I think I [00:42:10] use a combination personally. Um, in terms of if patients have a really [00:42:15] acute sensitivity, they’ve got gingivitis, not periodontitis. In fact, they can solve that [00:42:20] with oral hygiene alone, frankly. Um, you know, I’m happy to use guided biofilm therapy. [00:42:25] I think it has a place, but it’s not [00:42:30] going to remove calculus, which I know isn’t the be all and end all. But it’s.

Payman Langroudi: No, they say [00:42:35] to remove the calculus second. Right. Not first.

Sarovi Davda: So I, I think there is a place.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting [00:42:40] idea. Right. Because you don’t go around scratching the tooth like trying to get biofilm [00:42:45] off with the, with the scalar.

Sarovi Davda: Well, scalar is the whole point they were invented was [00:42:50] because we were. We thought root planing was what was needed. So it’s like the [00:42:55] right tool for the right job. You know when I was teaching with Phil we’d show this video. He’d have two videos alongside, [00:43:00] and he’d had this piece of wood covered by stain. And he goes, there are two ways [00:43:05] to get the stain off. One is with a wood planer. Yeah. Okay. A root planer. [00:43:10] And the second is with a piece of cloth and some water [00:43:15] or you know. And he’d do the two alongside and then below that then you’d click and up comes [00:43:20] a picture of intraoral root planing, which is obviously ghastly to look at and to experience. [00:43:25] And these local anaesthetic. And the next one was like, you know, using potentially even. [00:43:30] Right. That’s the thing. Either that or to use a polishing brush. It was in that case. [00:43:35] Or ultrasonics or whatever. And he’d say you know, which one would you rather have as a as both [00:43:40] do the job of course, but, you know, use the right tool for the right job. So [00:43:45] if you believe in route planning, use a route planner. We’re not saying don’t do it. That’s the job [00:43:50] you’re trying to accomplish. Do it. If you don’t use the right tool. So that’s I [00:43:55] think that’s a very powerful message with visuals. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How did [00:44:00] you get into the medico legal side.

Sarovi Davda: Again through Phil. God, [00:44:05] I owe so much to him. Thank you. Phil. Um, he had been doing it for the last for 20 years. I [00:44:10] really loved essay writing, and I just I was fascinated [00:44:15] by the field, and I wanted to. And this is a big, big thing. So I started my training when [00:44:20] I knew that I was I wasn’t going to be seeing my children every [00:44:25] day down to the divorce, and I wanted to still drop them off to school, pick [00:44:30] them up and earn a salary and a living. So then that’s when I started to look into Dental [00:44:35] Legal. So I did my qualification with Cardiff University. I took my exams and [00:44:40] then lo and behold, oh, it only took me a me a year and it’s super easy.

Payman Langroudi: And distance [00:44:45] learning.

Sarovi Davda: No, I went in actually at that time because it was pre Covid. So I went into London. [00:44:50] Um there’s an exam but it’s open book. It’s all, it’s, you know, brilliant teaching [00:44:55] as well. So I did all that. You have to present a case. So you have to write up kind of a report [00:45:00] as well.

Payman Langroudi: Like how hard is it. Is it difficult.

Sarovi Davda: Really easy.

Payman Langroudi: Is it, is it.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah, it’s really [00:45:05] easy, but. Well I think I think.

Payman Langroudi: It’s really.

Sarovi Davda: Easy, but I don’t think just me. I’m not like a brainiac. [00:45:10] It’s. No, it’s really easy. The great teaching the exam isn’t meant to trip you up. It’s. [00:45:15] It’s like a very basic exam that’s open book. You can have your stuff.

Payman Langroudi: In the idea [00:45:20] that you are an expert in one part of dentistry. And this is just the legal framework for any kind [00:45:25] of expert. Is that how it works?

Sarovi Davda: What do you.

Payman Langroudi: Mean? So you know about perio?

Sarovi Davda: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:45:30] your your likely outcome from this is to take care of perio cases. Yes. [00:45:35] But the training is just legal. It’s nothing to do with dentistry.

Sarovi Davda: So it’s oh so you have [00:45:40] like all sorts you have We have physiotherapists going to these. You’re in the room with like um [00:45:45] yeah. You get separated off potentially into like medico med. There’s, there’s [00:45:50] bits where you go into your various field but you have like you know, yeah, social workers, [00:45:55] you have like yeah, you have all different people going into in the civil court system [00:46:00] essentially, usually because it’s very rarely criminal. So yeah, you get you get all sorts of people. [00:46:05]

Payman Langroudi: So what do you now, now you’re going to have to give us like a, you know, like a five minute round up of [00:46:10] how not to get into medico legal problems around because I suspect [00:46:15] it’s one of the most common areas of where people.

Sarovi Davda: You’d be surprised. [00:46:20] Is it so 20% only down to Dental litigation. Is that down to perio? Do you know what?

Payman Langroudi: Number [00:46:25] one is a lot though?

Sarovi Davda: Yeah, yeah, I know you’re right, but I would have thought it was number one. And [00:46:30] it’s not this. This is this is 2017 data. Do I think so. It’s not up to date [00:46:35] I think it’s 2017. But the number one is extractions.

Payman Langroudi: Extractions.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. And [00:46:40] then it’s after that. What’s that? I think it’s. I can’t [00:46:45] remember now. What’s after extractions? Implants is the last one, but I think it’s going to increase. [00:46:50] It’s about 9%. No, it’s not ortho. It might be endo. [00:46:55] I think the second and third is perio. Fourth is caries and fillings. [00:47:00]

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Sarovi Davda: And then it’s implants I think after that.

Payman Langroudi: So how do we not get into trouble [00:47:05] legally regarding what are the most common cases that you see. Are they neglect. [00:47:10]

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. Supervised neglect in the sense that three monthly cleans and [00:47:15] and and and this is the crux. This is really important [00:47:20] and bone loss. Okay. So you don’t have so people probably don’t realise this. [00:47:25] Okay. I can basically not treat a patient. I can be utterly neglectful. [00:47:30] But if they haven’t suffered as a result of my neglect, there is no case. [00:47:35] So that’s called causation. So there has to be a breach of Breach of duty, but it has to be that a breach of [00:47:40] duty has caused an outcome. So if a patient has been receiving three monthly [00:47:45] scale and polishes no oral hygiene, no smoking, nothing, but they haven’t lost bone, no [00:47:50] case. It’s only when they’ve lost bone underneath your care and you haven’t you and and you have reached [00:47:55] your care of your duty of care.

Payman Langroudi: So if they haven’t been informed. Right.

Sarovi Davda: Yes. [00:48:00] Yeah. So the first thing I’d say is what you need to do is ensure that patient doesn’t [00:48:05] lose bone. And you need to know if they’ve lost bone. So take x [00:48:10] rays and what I’ve often. So according to the guidelines right. Asks [00:48:15] every six months if they’ve got caries or something until they don’t. If they’ve got [00:48:20] perio I’d be guided by. If they’ve got perio you should be taking six point pocket [00:48:25] charts every year. So guided by that. So if I have a patient that’s let’s say I’m seeing under like [00:48:30] supportive periodontal therapy and their pocket charts remain stable. [00:48:35] Everything seems clinically great. I only take, um, like, periapical [00:48:40] radiographs to check if something has changed in area or every two years. [00:48:45] You could argue even every four years there’s not really, really tight guidance around that. But if [00:48:50] something periodontal changes, that’s when you need to take investigative radiographs. If you’re in [00:48:55] general practice, you’re taking bitewings anyway. We know that because BSP guidelines that [00:49:00] if it doesn’t show the crestal bone levels, take more investigative x rays. So essentially just know where your bone [00:49:05] is and where I see this mist. And this is the most I’d say I need to do an audit. [00:49:10] But one, the most common reasons for suing your dentist down to perio is when [00:49:15] patients are losing front teeth. Now, it’s not the [00:49:20] backs that they, you know, you lose a front teeth.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [00:49:25] disaster. Right?

Sarovi Davda: So if you have someone who’s a new patient that’s come to you and [00:49:30] they have a history of smoking, take some periapicals the anterior just know where [00:49:35] those that bone level is. Because so often I get um claimants, as in cases [00:49:40] where claimants are suing their dentists who seen them for the last five years. They’ve they’ve got, [00:49:45] let’s say 80% bone loss, but there are no periapicals taken at the start of care. I [00:49:50] mean, balance probabilities, that’s what we work on as a legal test. That 80% [00:49:55] won’t have all been lost within the last five years, but it would be really helpful to have some periapicals [00:50:00] at the beginning and at the end that show. Hey, bone level hasn’t changed. She [00:50:05] came in with 80% bone loss. She’s got 80% bone loss at the end under five years because she stopped [00:50:10] smoking 15 years ago. You know like that I would say take take really good [00:50:15] x rays take accurate I mean I don’t know why we’re [00:50:20] still going wrong with BP’s, but I recently had a case I was literally looking yesterday where it says in [00:50:25] the clinical notes, deep pockets and the BP is like [00:50:30] two, two, two. Where are we not educating our undergrads that if you have [00:50:35] pockets over 3.5mm, you will not get a BP. Yeah, that’s zero, 1 [00:50:40] or 2. Like something is not. I don’t know what’s going wrong but like [00:50:45] accurate BP taking.

Payman Langroudi: Is that common?

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. Really common. Oh it’s one of the, one [00:50:50] of the most common allegations. Um, what what is it? The BP scores were inaccurate and an [00:50:55] underestimation. The bone present. Bone loss present. Yeah. So the most common allegations [00:51:00] I see are not taking accurate. Bp’s not taking six [00:51:05] point pocket charts. That’s really, really, really common.

Payman Langroudi: Six point pocket charts.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. [00:51:10] Or pocket charts.

Payman Langroudi: Or patient.

Sarovi Davda: Okay. It doesn’t have to be six point okay. It could be four point. Yeah. So not [00:51:15] taking periodontal pocket charts um performing scale and polishes. I [00:51:20] mean we are still using this data terminology, but using scale and polishes as [00:51:25] opposed to acceptable terms for therapy like debridement or PMP or whatever [00:51:30] it takes, but not scale and polishes, not taking reassessment. Pocket charts. You know, um, [00:51:35] because actually, if you don’t start off treating it, you don’t reassess it. Like if [00:51:40] you haven’t diagnosed it, you’re not going to take a periodontal assessment, you’re not gonna take a dental assessment, you’re not going to [00:51:45] treat it properly. You’re not going to treat it properly, you’re not going to reassess it properly. And then one thing that always comes [00:51:50] up delayed or complete absence of offer of a referral [00:51:55] to a periodontal specialist. And I’d say if you’re not, if you’re not confident in treating it well [00:52:00] from the get go, offer referral from the get go and document it. And the other [00:52:05] thing to document discuss periodontal disease is one thing [00:52:10] it doesn’t give any, you know, if you have a claimant standing up in court saying, okay, [00:52:15] they said I had gum disease.

Sarovi Davda: I had no idea what that meant. I didn’t realise that I was [00:52:20] five years away from losing my front tooth. You know, you need to be have a really you need [00:52:25] to have a really tailored conversation with a patient that that understands [00:52:30] what the risk is and how real that risk is. Like we all know smoking is not good [00:52:35] for us. Smoking is not good for our teeth. It’s a very different conversation when a patient hears [00:52:40] you have already lost 80% of the bone holding your front tooth in, and if you continue to [00:52:45] smoke, you will lose it. I can’t say whether it’s in ten years, 5 or 1, but it’s going [00:52:50] to happen. That’s a very different conversation. They can still say, no, I love my fags and I’ll lose my tooth, [00:52:55] no problem. It’s none of our business. Their decision, they’re an adult, but it’s our [00:53:00] job to tell them with personalised terms as opposed to generalised. You have [00:53:05] gum disease. You know that you can lose your two teeth if you. [00:53:10] It has to be in context. That’s what it is in context.

Payman Langroudi: I stopped practising in 2012 [00:53:15] where we didn’t have so much medical, [00:53:20] legal and essay writing in the notes. Yeah, and you’re from [00:53:25] the legal industry that’s built up built up around all of this, right? But [00:53:30] do you recognise what I’m saying when I say that we are now the lawyers of [00:53:35] one? We are now better at writing notes than [00:53:40] fixing patients in a way. You know.

Sarovi Davda: So [00:53:45] we’re pretty. We were pretty dire at reading Barrier, actually, from a long time ago. We’re [00:53:50] probably better at that, to be fair. We’re actually better in our management.

Payman Langroudi: I’m just so, so frustrated with the [00:53:55] fact that the lawyers have won.

Sarovi Davda: You know, would you say they won for sure?

Payman Langroudi: For sure. [00:54:00] 100%.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: When I look at my my wife’s still a dentist, when I look at the notes, I’m like, what the [00:54:05] hell, man? Like writing all those notes and and, like, the [00:54:10] amount of time you’re spending writing all those notes. And by the way, we went to A&E, [00:54:15] you know, a major situation, you know, like with slipped disc situation. You know, I was watching the guy. Not [00:54:20] that much. Notes were being written. Not that much. Nowhere near as much. Nowhere. Nowhere near as much as some poor [00:54:25] hygienist has to write about us.

Sarovi Davda: It’s ridiculous. I would agree that [00:54:30] our notes are administrative burden has massively increased down to [00:54:35] lawyers, but.

Payman Langroudi: Disproportionately.

Sarovi Davda: What I can see. Our treatment of periodontal [00:54:40] disease is also like I’m looking back at 1980s notes or [00:54:45] exam S&P exam S&P. There’s like you know nothing going on in terms of treatment. [00:54:50] We have got better at treating it. If we’ve got better at treating it then patients win. Of course [00:54:55] that yeah of course.

Payman Langroudi: And you know.

Sarovi Davda: Like I think good changes and very [00:55:00] cumbersome changes have come about from the legal industry. Yeah I don’t work [00:55:05] for anyone but the court and I mean that. So my duty of care, duty as an [00:55:10] independent expert witness is that I’m an independent. Yeah. So you don’t get any other. [00:55:15] To be fair, you don’t get if.

Payman Langroudi: I’m a dentist in trouble, I can’t call on you to be my expert witness.

Sarovi Davda: No. [00:55:20] So I’m instructed by purpose.

Payman Langroudi: Is that. What is that? I mean, some of them. Some of Some of them.

Sarovi Davda: For [00:55:25] the for the for the for like the. So that justice can be carried in terms of so you [00:55:30] have the whole point of expert witnesses is that we are independent. It’s part of our like directive that we have to [00:55:35] be unbiased, you know, independent expert witnesses. So [00:55:40] I actually get which is incredibly rare by audited my caseload last year, um, [00:55:45] 50% instruction. It was exactly when I say it was like literally the case number, [00:55:50] 50% instruction claimant from the claimants solicitors and 50% instruction from the [00:55:55] indemnity societies representing the, you know, defendant. It might change this year. It’s not going to be 5050 [00:56:00] necessarily on on the on the mark every year. But I’m I’m instructed [00:56:05] equally and my report for each of them is exactly the same.

Payman Langroudi: Do [00:56:10] you do you do you understand what I’m saying when I say a lot of the outcomes of, [00:56:15] of these court cases ends up with a, a disproportionate [00:56:20] again, a disproportionate amount is based on the skill [00:56:25] of the lawyer.

Sarovi Davda: Hmm. I [00:56:30] mean, I’ve only been in court once. Oh, really? So because it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Not following. [00:56:35]

Sarovi Davda: The case. Um. No. No, no. Do you know? Well, no. I have followed up [00:56:40] to many on many, many, many cases up until kind of the 11th hour, where you’ve had [00:56:45] joint expert meetings. You’ve, you know, you’ve really chewed the cud over all the issues up until the very end. [00:56:50] Would I say it matters on a lawyer? Like I said, I haven’t.

Payman Langroudi: It definitely does. Like, well [00:56:55] I’m not.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah it does. I’m not 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Sure about medico legal but in legal. Yeah. The [00:57:00] how good your lawyer is really is the most I for me the biggest variable in whether you’re [00:57:05] going to win or not.

Sarovi Davda: I.

Payman Langroudi: Think actually.

Sarovi Davda: You know do you know what I think the barrister [00:57:10] is a big important part when it comes to actually getting in court, for sure. When [00:57:15] it comes to the lawyer. Yes, yes. And also actually the expert witness, [00:57:20] That is like, okay, when I did my first joint meeting, [00:57:25] so I took on my first case. I was, you know, called to a joint meeting. And when I say joint meeting, sorry, not a [00:57:30] joint meeting, I mean a meeting. So this is my instructing solicitor with, you know, the defendant or [00:57:35] the claimant with some. I was expecting to sit there and just listen to what’s going on. [00:57:40] And I was wrong. Literally the entire two hour meeting was about [00:57:45] my report. And it is the most, I say, pivotal piece [00:57:50] of evidence in the whole thing, at least one of them. It’s [00:57:55] really important. And you have an expert that has a very, you [00:58:00] know, particular view, let’s say a biased view or a particular view. [00:58:05] It’s a big swing component. It’s a big component. [00:58:10] Like, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do people ever challenge you.

Sarovi Davda: In [00:58:15] all the like? That’s the whole point, right? Challenge me. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: No. But challenging [00:58:20] you as the expert?

Sarovi Davda: Yes. The other side.

Payman Langroudi: We don’t. We don’t accept this [00:58:25] expert as an expert.

Sarovi Davda: Ah, you mean.

Payman Langroudi: We want a different expert?

Sarovi Davda: Um, [00:58:30] have they challenged me? They’ll question me on certain points. I’ve [00:58:35] haven’t been sort of shoved off a case because they don’t like my opinion. Because I tend to. I [00:58:40] like to think I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: They want a specialist.

Sarovi Davda: So [00:58:45] they because I because [00:58:50] of what I’ve done and my qualifications. I’ve been accepted as a specialist [00:58:55] in this. Not on the register, but a specialist in periodontics, by the court, by a judge. [00:59:00] And that’s good enough in a sense, because I can basically. Can you argue your own that you are a like a [00:59:05] you have a special interest, you have enough information in this field. And I’ve been able to do that because whatever [00:59:10] my history of teaching 14 years or and my MSC and the fact that I exclusively [00:59:15] practice in perio now, um, but that’s, I guess, my knowledge, you feel like.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a vulnerability, like insomuch [00:59:20] as, let’s say I’m I’m, I’m the dentist and the claimant says something, and then you say something [00:59:25] that’s against me. Can’t I say, hey, this isn’t even a specialist.

Sarovi Davda: Yes. And they have brought [00:59:30] that to court, have they? Yeah, yeah. So when I was in court and I was being cross-examined, they said, are you on the specialist [00:59:35] register? And I said, no, and then I’ll give my qualifications. It’s whether the judge really deems [00:59:40] that to be appropriate. And actually I think well, I’d like to think like when I get talking, [00:59:45] it’s quite clear that I know what I’m talking about. And a lot of the stuff that with [00:59:50] the, you know, I’ll be on the same page, most of us [00:59:55] will be on same pages. It just might be a slightly different view on certain [01:00:00] things. Or, you know, in treatment planning, for example. And actually, I was really pleased to see that [01:00:05] in terms of my particular view on periodontics, which I feel is highly evidence based. There was a case [01:00:10] recently, I think it was 2022, where one of the periodontists that was there [01:00:15] had treatment planning very similar to how I would look at it from Periodontists. [01:00:20] So for example, okay, one of the big things I have is that and this is S3 guidance [01:00:25] back now. We should not be placing implants in patients who have unstable periodontal disease. [01:00:30]

Sarovi Davda: Like it’s just a kind of don’t go there. Whereas actually you’ll get a lot of experts [01:00:35] and they could well be from the prosthetic from like, you know, implant ologists. I know there’s no speciality, [01:00:40] but someone has been placing implants who will conduct a check [01:00:45] of the patient. Um, it’s obviously not from a periodontal aspect for such. And write down [01:00:50] a treatment plan for this claimant that has full mouth rehab of, you know, £70,000 [01:00:55] worth of implants. And then on the other side is a periodontist or someone like myself [01:01:00] who says this patient isn’t yet suitable for implants. And this is why. [01:01:05] And that will be the difference between a £10,000 treatment plan with dentures, [01:01:10] or a £70,000 treatment plan with a full mouth rehab with implants. [01:01:15] And that’s where the the issues are disparate and it goes to court. And that was what [01:01:20] happened actually with this case I’m talking about. It was taken to court. And it was actually the judge that said, [01:01:25] this makes a lot of sense what the periodontist is saying and awarded the [01:01:30] claimant those fees as opposed to the yeah, the claimants.

Payman Langroudi: Fees, had there [01:01:35] been in that case consent from the patient. Mhm. And it had been explained [01:01:40] and the patient had consented properly. If it was informed consent, [01:01:45] would that have changed everything.

Sarovi Davda: In clinical practice. Yes possibly. Right. [01:01:50] But this is where.

Payman Langroudi: In that case.

Sarovi Davda: The government’s awarding like the public is [01:01:55] awarding the amount. Sorry not the public sorry. It would be the it would be the indemnity [01:02:00] society. That’s then awarding that as opposed to the the claimant saying I’ll [01:02:05] take on the risk, I’ll pay with my own money. And if it goes tits up, that’s [01:02:10] fine. But but in court you’re being awarded it by the other side, right? So [01:02:15] that’s when it becomes an issue.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course. Yeah. Where do you fall on? [01:02:20] You know, I’m being a bit biased, but whitening perio patients.

Sarovi Davda: Where [01:02:25] do I fall? What do you mean?

Payman Langroudi: Well, it’s kind of a funny thing, like, should you, [01:02:30] could you can you bleach someone who’s not [01:02:35] stable periodically?

Sarovi Davda: Ah. I see. Um, [01:02:40] well, there’s certainly no health detriment to it in the sense that it’s not going to harm unless [01:02:45] you have ulcerations the gum. That’s going to hurt like hell.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. More sensitivity, maybe during treatment. But [01:02:50] then even the stable one, you’d get.

Sarovi Davda: Uh, no. Stable. [01:02:55] I think I’m of the opinion that. What’s the problem with doing it? Well, [01:03:00] that’s that’s the test. Not when it’s unstable, necessarily. In terms of stability. I prefer to [01:03:05] work in a very conventional way, which are like, put the fires out first. Yeah. Stabilise. And then the aesthetics. [01:03:10] Like the cherry on the cake. That’s the way I prefer to work.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the. That’s the textbook, isn’t it?

Sarovi Davda: Yeah, but [01:03:15] in terms of the detriment.

Payman Langroudi: The patient wants whitening. Yeah, as long as the patient knows. [01:03:20]

Sarovi Davda: Yeah, I think it’s fine. I’m not going to say no. I mean, I start getting a little [01:03:25] bit uncomfortable when they’re like, I can’t afford to go ahead with a débridement, but I want to whiter my teeth. [01:03:30] That’s just my judgement. But yeah, exactly. Exactly. So so I have [01:03:35] to put my stuff aside. Yeah, I agree with you. It’s their money and it’s their teeth. As long as I inform them, [01:03:40] as long as I inform them. So, you know, you could whiten these teeth, but they may not be teeth left there to whiten in ten [01:03:45] years time. As long as I’m. I’m honest.

Payman Langroudi: And I guess I guess you have to. Some dentists wouldn’t [01:03:50] do it. Yeah, which is fine. Yeah. If then says I would.

Sarovi Davda: Well, see, I have the luxury of not [01:03:55] doing it. So it’s like I don’t have to deal with the actual. I’ve done it, but I haven’t treated [01:04:00] their perio thing very morally. Easily easy for me. Yeah. You know, I can say, [01:04:05] sure, you can get it done with your dentist. Of course. You know, you’re a free human being. Yeah. I [01:04:10] don’t offer it myself. So it’s easy. Yeah. No. Just because they [01:04:15] go back to their genders. I mean, I’m getting referred in patients. Yeah. So it would be very. Also, it’s treading on toes. [01:04:20] Right. So I refer everything back to the GDP. That would be GDP territory. I don’t take that myself. [01:04:25] I just deal with the Perrier.

Payman Langroudi: So have you got no plans to become a specialist?

Sarovi Davda: No. [01:04:30] Do you know? I don’t, and I have thought about it a number [01:04:35] of times because I just love learning.

Payman Langroudi: I love to become a specialist now, with everything that you’ve [01:04:40] done. Isn’t there, like, a shortened way of doing it?

Sarovi Davda: So I could have done it. So the same way that Ian did, because Ian and I have the same [01:04:45] qualifications. So he did do MSC, but like we both got MSC. Yeah. [01:04:50] Um, and he went through the kind of the old grandfather clause type thing. And [01:04:55] obviously he, you know he’s, he’s a star in that sense. I, I [01:05:00] could have looked at doing that, but I just thought to myself it cost [01:05:05] a lot of money. What are the what’s my motivation behind doing this? I don’t want [01:05:10] or need any more patience. I do exactly what I want to do without any [01:05:15] restrictions in terms of my clinical remit, because yeah, I do what I want to [01:05:20] do. Why am I really doing this? And for me and me personally, the reason would [01:05:25] be ego. And that’s something that I need to soothe.

Payman Langroudi: Discount. [01:05:30]

Sarovi Davda: Ego. I need to soothe versus like paying thousands of pounds to get some letters after [01:05:35] my name. And so that’s the reason I didn’t do it through that route. Or I could have to go back and do an [01:05:40] mql. And then I almost prefer to do it that way if I was going to, because then I get to learn. [01:05:45] But again, I’m I know I don’t want to pull out the violin, but, you know, I, I’m [01:05:50] a single income family. I’ve got other places to put my cash at the moment, and I just, [01:05:55] I feel like I’m doing what I do and I love it and I don’t need to do more.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the difference for [01:06:00] me? Yeah. What’s what’s the difference between a good periodontist [01:06:05] and a great periodontist.

Sarovi Davda: My [01:06:10] Phil’s words come into my head now. I was going to say communication because it depends [01:06:15] so much on I would say life style changes. [01:06:20] It’s a patient driven disease. Yeah. The more you can influence [01:06:25] the patient in making those lifestyle changes, the better results [01:06:30] you’re going to get. So I’d say almost like psychology. So I think me too.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:06:35] so there must be right in the training. Yeah. You’ve done some training. Hygienists do training. There must [01:06:40] be a big element of it. Or there should be a big element of it, which is behaviour change. [01:06:45] Yeah. Like how do you get people to change their behaviour. You know, how do you inspire that. [01:06:50]

Sarovi Davda: Okay. So you as an undergrad must have had psychology like Tim Newton was our psychology. [01:06:55]

Payman Langroudi: There wasn’t much of it.

Sarovi Davda: It wasn’t a huge amount. I don’t know if that’s [01:07:00] changed undergraduate training now. Do you know what’s interesting though, in all Known all postgraduate training. [01:07:05] I don’t generally see courses that are based in psychology [01:07:10] aimed at periodontists or general dental practitioners. Not many. Whereas [01:07:15] you get loads of courses on like, you know, surgical technique or, you [01:07:20] know, all the hands, all the stuff. Yeah, all the what we can do in our [01:07:25] hands. We don’t get that much psychology stuff on offer.

Payman Langroudi: I remember learning [01:07:30] loads on the cellular level of the, you.

Sarovi Davda: Know.

Payman Langroudi: The, the host response and interleukin [01:07:35] one and two and just loads on that. Yeah, loads and loads and loads on that. [01:07:40]

Sarovi Davda: But but not very much on psychology.

Payman Langroudi: Now when I say good or great, I [01:07:45] was kind of thinking of it from the referrers perspective as well, you know. So [01:07:50] I used to have a referral guy, uh, Pete Strand. Lovely. Lovely [01:07:55] guy. Um, and he used to there was a real value add to referring to him, [01:08:00] because there would be there’d be a patient who I want to put two crowns on. Um, [01:08:05] but I wasn’t 100% sure if I should on that on those perio [01:08:10] teeth, you know, and obviously I’m doing my root planing whatever, but just not not realising, not knowing [01:08:15] for sure. Will those teeth be okay to put crowns on to, you know, for the patient to spend loads of money [01:08:20] putting crowns on. So I’d refer to Pete. Pete would treat the perio and the patient would come back [01:08:25] saying, I want crowns on those two, please. Yeah. He would he would handle that part of the conversation. [01:08:30] Um, yeah. And I would think that’s a massive value add, right?

Sarovi Davda: I didn’t even [01:08:35] think about it that way. So the reason I had this conversation is because my, my MSC was in restorative dental practice, [01:08:40] and then the thesis was on Perry. Right. So I didn’t even think about the fact that I’m adding value [01:08:45] in that way. I just feel like I’m so obsessed with giving value to the patient, and I didn’t [01:08:50] think about it from the referees point of view. And having this conversation is I do. [01:08:55]

Payman Langroudi: Have referring often.

Sarovi Davda: Right?

Payman Langroudi: You have to bear that in mind.

Sarovi Davda: So I do personally, I can’t stop myself. [01:09:00] There’s something a something a bit compulsive about making an entire treatment plan for the patient. So because I’m doing.

Payman Langroudi: The. [01:09:05]

Sarovi Davda: Restorative. So what I do. Yeah. No, no. Yeah. So I do full mouth periapicals. And I’m obliged [01:09:10] to diagnose and communicate any disease I see. Right. So I end [01:09:15] up telling the patient, both in verbal and written form, every disease [01:09:20] I’ve seen and communicating that to the patient and, and the dentist informing [01:09:25] them of that and the treatment. I do tend to do that and overrun [01:09:30] with my time and admin, just because I feel like it’s both my duty and my compulsion [01:09:35] as a perfectionist. So and I and I just love what I do as well. So that’s part of what I do. [01:09:40] But, you know, our thinking, one of the values I think, okay, on a personal level that I add as a someone [01:09:45] treating your patient perio, I cannot tell you the number of times [01:09:50] that the dentist has come back to me saying, oh my gosh, like their mouth has changed. [01:09:55] But it’s not just for the sake of one round of treatment. So the way I way I treat Perry and I [01:10:00] always have is I take them through. As per S3 guidelines. But I’ve been doing it for years. A really [01:10:05] long oral hygiene. Phase so they don’t get to step two when I’m doing professional debridement [01:10:10] for about three months.

Sarovi Davda: And that’s because I’m seeing them again and again and again. [01:10:15] And it’s like PT sessions where they get into a really long [01:10:20] term habit of knowing what they need to do. And I drive home [01:10:25] exactly why. I mean, my patients go out knowing all about biofilm disruption. They know [01:10:30] it’s not about biofilm removal, biofilm killing or bacterial. They know the ins and outs of the [01:10:35] the stuff they know about mouthwash washing over it doesn’t destroy it. They really have an understanding. [01:10:40] And so I find that if you release patients into the wild [01:10:45] of GDP with a long term aspect and engagement in, [01:10:50] in controlling it, not just for like get them cleaned up, get them there, [01:10:55] you know, pockets below four and then deal with them. But it’s like a changed patient. [01:11:00] I feel like that’s not just value for the patient, but for the GDP, then has to deal with it on the [01:11:05] other side for the rest of their lives. If they are more, if they’re more educated, more engaged, [01:11:10] and they know it’s down to them and them alone, then that’s infinitely better for the the [01:11:15] Dental future as opposed to just quick fix. Out you go. Yeah, [01:11:20] that’s one of the things I think add value that adds value.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t want to be too reductive about it. [01:11:25] Yeah, but let’s reduce it down to pay.

Sarovi Davda: Pay. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Does it pay to [01:11:30] be an expert witness more than it pays to?

Sarovi Davda: If you do it quicker than I do a [01:11:35] referral? Oh, I’m not sure. Okay. Does it pay?

Payman Langroudi: I guess it pays, [01:11:40] but does it pay well?

Sarovi Davda: I, I it depends [01:11:45] how quickly you churn out reports, I’d say. Then it can pay very well. So [01:11:50] if you’re doing like a really simple personal injury trauma case patient [01:11:55] comes in. Okay, so patients had a road traffic accident, a number of different [01:12:00] things going on on their body. Not our business. Chips tooth. Easy [01:12:05] as you have a pro forma report. You’ve done one before. You know everything’s in it. [01:12:10] You change a few things. You could churn one out and about, see them for like a 15 minute exam, [01:12:15] take an x ray photograph, bang out report in what, an hour? Yeah, [01:12:20] two. And you could charge how much? £895. [01:12:25] £1,200, something like that.

[TRANSITION]: Not bad.

Sarovi Davda: Really good. Right. [01:12:30] Especially if you’re an associate. Giving 50% 45.

Payman Langroudi: Of those would be nice wouldn’t.

[TRANSITION]: It.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. [01:12:35] Okay. So that’s a really easy as in terms of that’s a good turnover. Yeah. For me the way that [01:12:40] I reports when it comes to perio and I’m looking at potentially 15 years worth of data, I [01:12:45] wouldn’t necessarily say it’s a good earner the way I operate. You’d get [01:12:50] people like but is it like saying totally different? He was like, I [01:12:55] can get you down to 50% of the time you’re spending on reports. I really [01:13:00] pour a lot of effort and work into my reports, and I wouldn’t say it’s fantastic, but [01:13:05] I get to work. I get to wake up at ten, start 11, take an hour’s lunch [01:13:10] break, do a couple hours here, work on a Sunday in my pyjamas for that. I [01:13:15] think it’s awesome, you know. And so it’s how much of your time.

Payman Langroudi: Is doing [01:13:20] the legal side and how much of your time is doing actual patients?

Sarovi Davda: 5050 at [01:13:25] the moment.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, really?

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. Is that much.

[TRANSITION]: And and probably my clinical will increase [01:13:30] when I go 5050.

Payman Langroudi: Income wise as well. Or do you still make more being a dentist?

Sarovi Davda: No, I [01:13:35] still make more being a dentist. Oh, yeah. I still make more to being a dentist, because I don’t take on [01:13:40] as many cases as I could. If I churn them out super quick and I’m [01:13:45] sure I could get my my hourly rate better.

Payman Langroudi: And there’s a, there’s a shortage of periodontists. [01:13:50]

Sarovi Davda: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is there a shortage of periodontal legal [01:13:55] experts as well?

Sarovi Davda: Massive massive shortage.

Payman Langroudi: So you could literally double if [01:14:00] you speed it up.

Sarovi Davda: You.

Payman Langroudi: Could.

Sarovi Davda: The thing is okay, so I tried putting up my prices and I have put up my prices and I’ve [01:14:05] still got uptake and I’m still I’m still saying no to cases. So at the moment my the demand [01:14:10] for instruction is, is more than I can take. So I’m turning down cases. [01:14:15] So I have put my price up. But there’s also a ceiling on it I found. So I can’t [01:14:20] just simply put it up to whatever the hell I want, because there may [01:14:25] not. There’s only a finite amount of money in the case to be able to dish out. So [01:14:30] yeah, there is there is a ceiling. I’ve, I found yeah. [01:14:35]

Payman Langroudi: There’s one other subject I want to talk about is um, recently Victoria [01:14:40] Samson was on diary of a CEO.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And from my perspective, [01:14:45] I thought, number one, well done for getting the profession on that platform. Number [01:14:50] two. The number of people who are going to be brushing their teeth a lot better now because of everything [01:14:55] that went on in that one. But there was a significant backlash from, from [01:15:00] Periodontists, um, about sort of I think some [01:15:05] of them were saying that, that she was sensationalising it. But, you know, it’s a sensational platform. [01:15:10]

Sarovi Davda: That’s going to say. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, so some were saying, oh, to fill up her clinic. [01:15:15] She said whatever she wanted to which I know that’s not the kind of person she is, but I, you know, I found myself [01:15:20] defending her, but I did find a bunch of eminent periodontists who [01:15:25] were, you know, pretty angry about the whole thing. What is [01:15:30] your view of what happened? Like, did you you listened?

Sarovi Davda: Yes, I listened, and [01:15:35] I can understand both sides in the sense that, okay, when I first [01:15:40] heard it, some of the things I did feel. Ooh, we haven’t yet got the evidence [01:15:45] for that or that, you know. So there was that that perfectionistic side of item. It may be not perfectionistic, [01:15:50] but that side the part of me that revolted in the sense [01:15:55] that, okay, that’s not quite right. You know, my not quite right thing. Yeah. And there’s [01:16:00] some truth in that. Of course, you know, we haven’t yet got the evidence out there to do saliva testing, which [01:16:05] will tell us everything. Otherwise we’d all be doing it right. But I found [01:16:10] that she came across as such an amiable, which [01:16:15] is no small feat when it comes to dentistry. People don’t like our profession. Full stop. We [01:16:20] are not an amiable profession. So to come across as a young, dynamic, enthusiastic, [01:16:25] um, amiable, someone you know, someone [01:16:30] in a profession, and you can pick on the little bits that weren’t quite right. [01:16:35] Of course you are. Of course you can. There was a lot that she said that was, and drew [01:16:40] attention to the connections between essentially the body and perio, that if we [01:16:45] can get people more interested, I think that’s fantastic. I just [01:16:50] think if you’re looking at the overall benefit versus kind of, it’s not even a [01:16:55] risk benefit.

Sarovi Davda: But if you’re looking at the good versus the not quite right, [01:17:00] I just think overall she I think overall she did a great thing for the profession. [01:17:05] Me too. I do. And I think that the other thing that’s really important that she’s also said [01:17:10] is that that is an interview where you cannot see the edited version. I think it’s there. [01:17:15] It may well be that, you know, there were times where she qualified that [01:17:20] this is there’s one study that’s come out. There’s one this there’s growing evidence [01:17:25] base. There may well have been a caveat to many things that she said that would just [01:17:30] edit it out. So it appears as if it’s fact, because that is much more, you know, of course [01:17:35] people want to hear dramatic headlines, don’t they? So we could have had just had the headlines [01:17:40] without the caveat that came with it. So I’d like to think that I was emotionally generous enough to to [01:17:45] give her the her the benefit of the doubt. But if I look at the overall good versus [01:17:50] disrepute, let’s say it’s the profession has been brought into overall much. Yeah, she’s I think she’s [01:17:55] shone a light on something that will just, if anything, spark people’s interest in engagement [01:18:00] in improving their health.

Payman Langroudi: I think about it right, is that, you know, um, the evidence base and [01:18:05] what that means, you know, what does it mean that the evidence base doesn’t show that I had Avi Banerjee [01:18:10] sitting. Sitting where you’re sitting?

Sarovi Davda: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I.

Sarovi Davda: Lovely guy.

Payman Langroudi: I asked him how long, [01:18:15] how long between a breakthrough and that going into the evidence [01:18:20] base, inverted commas or being taught on MSC programs all over the world, he [01:18:25] said 25 years, something like that, really?

Sarovi Davda: 25. Yeah, yeah, yeah, really long time.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:18:30] so, so if the evidence base today of, you know, multicenter, double [01:18:35] blind clinical trials doesn’t show some of the things that someone says, we [01:18:40] have to bear in mind that that evidence base is almost 25 years old. Almost. [01:18:45] And I’m not being silly about it. Of course. Of course. Someone put out a paper yesterday that [01:18:50] we can all read and sew, sew.

Sarovi Davda: Sew. I completely agree that essentially what let’s say Victoria [01:18:55] Samson, as we’re taking her as example, what she’s saying could actually be be the go [01:19:00] to the standard way of approaching things, because we have so much evidence in 25 years time. And she might just [01:19:05] be, you know, ahead of her game. But I think that’s where the caveats are important. [01:19:10] The saying. So, for example.

Payman Langroudi: And she may not it may be incorrect.

Sarovi Davda: That’s [01:19:15] correct. That’s where it needs to be qualified that there is emerging evidence. This is what I practice because [01:19:20] I really believe that this is the way forward. As of yet, there isn’t enough evidence to to show that we should [01:19:25] all be practising this way. But you know where I could really identify with that? And I was sharing with you earlier [01:19:30] when we’re talking casually that when and I mentioned Phil, our Graham Smith, both presidents [01:19:35] of the British Society of Periodontology in their time and things, um, they were considered mavericks, [01:19:40] as was their mentor mental. Who’s you know, Bernie Keyser? Yeah. [01:19:45] The Eastman. And when he was back in the day, this is over 30 years [01:19:50] ago teaching that biofilm was kind of the most instrumental trigger. [01:19:55] And it was all about disruption, the biofilm. When he was teaching that he was so [01:20:00] shunned that he had to do in secret. It was like the secret society. Then Phil was [01:20:05] given, um, a voice at the annual conference, the BSP. And [01:20:10] when he spoke and he showed a radiograph of having, leaving, leaving behind inadvertently [01:20:15] or much to his dismay, because he tried so hard a bulk of calculus [01:20:20] around a tooth. And lo and behold, there was still in bony infill in the defect [01:20:25] there, and no pocketing. So he said, how can I possibly justify going in with surgery and treating this [01:20:30] when I’ve got all the clinical parameters of health? This pocket’s not even this.

Sarovi Davda: Sorry. No pocket, not even bleeding. [01:20:35] I’ve got bony infill, bulk of calculus. And he was then given the feedback from [01:20:40] generally positive. But there was one very eminent famous [01:20:45] professor teaching actually in one of the London teaching hospitals, who wrote down [01:20:50] on his feedback. This person should not be given any public podium to ever speak again. [01:20:55] And there was a controversial debate going on outside the thing and what he was [01:21:00] saying and practising for 25 years, of which I also basically I gave it a whirl [01:21:05] when I went to his course. I spoke to him, I gave it a whirl, and I found that I [01:21:10] actually got the most phenomenal results in doing a what’s now accepted as S3 guidance [01:21:15] and evidence through the roof. A prolonged oral hygiene phase. Optimising patient [01:21:20] risk factors, modifying them, going for the oral hygiene. I got the most phenomenal results I’d ever [01:21:25] had in practice, so I thought, why would I not do this? And I was on board, but [01:21:30] it was still very controversial. He was considered a maverick until he wasn’t 25 [01:21:35] years in the making. So in that sense, I can really identify [01:21:40] with the Victoria Sampson this world. But again, like I said, it just needs to be clarified [01:21:45] and that this is not universally accepted.

Sarovi Davda: Here is the evidence [01:21:50] I’m relying upon. But evidence based dentistry, everyone goes to, oh, it’s clinical trials [01:21:55] and it’s meta analysis and systematic reviews. When you look at the definition of evidence [01:22:00] based dentistry, it’s not about just the science. It’s the marrying up [01:22:05] of patient centred clinical expertise and the [01:22:10] latest and best quality evidence. It’s those three things. And if I’m finding I get better [01:22:15] results doing one thing in my hands than I was before, and that serves [01:22:20] the patient because the way I was practising didn’t involve local anaesthetic initially. I was doing the whole [01:22:25] thing from patients cleaning subgingival in their pockets and therefore [01:22:30] reducing inflammation didn’t require the I mean, patients were having the most comfortable debridement [01:22:35] you could ever think and the best results. And I’ve changed my view slightly from, you know, [01:22:40] adapting Mint’s techniques and things. But why would I not want [01:22:45] to do that and advocate that? And when I’m then sharing it publicly, simply [01:22:50] say, this is what I do in my hands. And it is backed by this evidence because there was evidence [01:22:55] dating back from Battiston et al, showing that, you know, we’re rubbish at actually removing calculus. So how [01:23:00] big a part of the picture is it? If you can do that, then sort of. [01:23:05] There is a place. That’s what I’m trying to say. There is a, there is a place.

Payman Langroudi: There would never be any progress would [01:23:10] it, if, if.

Sarovi Davda: If we didn’t try.

Payman Langroudi: Things, we wouldn’t try.

Sarovi Davda: Things. Well, yeah. As long as there’s no harm [01:23:15] to patients at the other thing as well, you know, if it’s working as well or better than what [01:23:20] you’re doing before and there’s less risk, then it’s hard to then in some ways [01:23:25] argue with the with those three things patient centred, you know, because again, the other thing that Victoria [01:23:30] Sampson, I mean, and I shouldn’t, shouldn’t necessarily bring her personally into it, but if I’m, if I’m [01:23:35] charging, let’s say double, but it’s not evidence based. Again, that’s a conversation I need to [01:23:40] have with a patient. So if I was using, let’s say, laser and all the evidence shows that it’s [01:23:45] no better than when you’re doing your standard debridement, I need to have a conversation with [01:23:50] the patient saying, look, I think this works in my hand. This is how I’m going to justify A, B or [01:23:55] C. It is double the amount. The evidence doesn’t actually show. It’s better. Do you still want to go ahead with it? That’s [01:24:00] a conversation that needs to be had. So you know.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Documented to.

Sarovi Davda: Documented [01:24:05] to of course. Yeah. Keep yourself out of court.

Payman Langroudi: We’re coming to the end of our time. But I’m gonna go [01:24:10] to the darker part of the pod.

Sarovi Davda: The darker part. Okay. [01:24:15] Let’s talk about the stakes. Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Clinical errors.

Sarovi Davda: Is it really the darker part? [01:24:20] I think it’s the light, you know? That’s. It’s through the cracks that the light. Light seeps in. Right? [01:24:25] That’s the thing.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind if I say clinical error. Yeah. That you made that [01:24:30] the rest of us can learn from so that we can all learn from each other’s mistakes rather than.

Sarovi Davda: Okay, loads [01:24:35] of clinical errors that you can learn from. Um, okay, that’s slightly different [01:24:40] because I’ve made clinical errors now. I mean, I remember in year I [01:24:45] so overly, enthusiastically prepared and filled a molar, [01:24:50] thank God or not, thank God. It was on the husband of my dental nurse that literally looked [01:24:55] like some sort of mushroom or tree. Palm tree had fungi from the apex. [01:25:00] Horrific. I don’t even know how that poor man. I’m so sorry. Wherever you are. Didn’t experience, [01:25:05] like, severe jaw pain. That was what happened. That was one for the Annals [01:25:10] of Dentistry. No. Do you know what? He was right. This thing is so damn [01:25:15] forgiving, isn’t it? So that was horrific. Yeah. Um. Another one. [01:25:20] And I’ll always remember this. I can literally picture her face right now. So [01:25:25] this is actually relevant. Lower 2 to 2. I cannot remember how much bone they [01:25:30] lost, but it was there was bone loss but really motivated patient. And [01:25:35] in the end what happened, what happened is I ended up extracting that lower tooth, [01:25:40] thinking I was doing the best job, you know, since sliced bread of putting an adhesive bridge on the three [01:25:45] from the 3 to 3. And she came back and it was it looked fine. It functioned fine. It wasn’t [01:25:50] something kind of wrong with it as such. But she said, I wish I’d never [01:25:55] taken those teeth out. So worst decision I’d ever made. And I guess now with everything [01:26:00] that I know about prognosis. Yeah, I regret you can’t [01:26:05] ever put teeth back that you’ve taken out. But you can take teeth out that then end up going down the pan. [01:26:10] And that patient will lose their teeth with a different spirit.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Then [01:26:15] it’s a good point.

Sarovi Davda: If they, you know, had at least given it a shot. That’s actually a quote from [01:26:20] who’s the famous Italian Maurizio Zanetti. Yeah, yeah. They’ll [01:26:25] lose in a different spirit. And if not, and he actually finishes it off by I better call my lawyer. Um, [01:26:30] that’s that quote. But so that was really bad. There’s a very funny, [01:26:35] regrettable, but I’m not sure about faux pas like preventable mistake. But, um, [01:26:40] I had a wonderful, wonderful patient. This is a bit funny, but not. [01:26:45] Yeah, not um, he had very sadly over Covid, suffered from [01:26:50] cancer. And I was told by my nurse that, oh, you know, he’s [01:26:55] come back. He’s, he’s had cancer treatment. And I said to him, I said, oh my gosh, [01:27:00] I am so sorry that, you know, you suffered this. [01:27:05] And he said, yeah, we had to miss our planned trip to Japan and everything. And I said, [01:27:10] I go and I never use this terminology. I go, God, what a [01:27:15] bummer. And he said, he goes, yeah, literally it was anal cancer. [01:27:20]

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Sarovi Davda: And I literally.

Sarovi Davda: Wanted the ground to swallow [01:27:25] me up. But he found the funny side of it. Lovely, lovely, lovely guy. Yes. [01:27:30] That was not. That was not ideal.

Payman Langroudi: I like that you gave three totally different situations. [01:27:35] I mean, I’m going to let you off. Normally I want something that went wrong, that then [01:27:40] the patient. It didn’t go well with that patient as well. But, but but I’m happy. I’m happy [01:27:45] with what you’ve given me there.

Sarovi Davda: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Final question. Fantasy [01:27:50] dinner party.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. So I thought about this, and [01:27:55] I’m not sure it’s a fantasy, actually, but it’s just like, who would I have? And I thought about it, and this is [01:28:00] what came to me, which is very weird, but okay, I chose [01:28:05] I chose Jesus.

[TRANSITION]: Jesus.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. Jesus, I, I am very [01:28:10] spiritual. I love like I’m not actually even a born Christian, but I thought really [01:28:15] any enlightened being. But Jesus is pretty popular, right? So I’d have Jesus, [01:28:20] I would have the Dalai Lama and I’d have Donald Trump. [01:28:25]

[TRANSITION]: Oh.

Sarovi Davda: Okay.

[TRANSITION]: And there’s a reason behind this. Go on, go on, go on. So?

Sarovi Davda: So [01:28:30] I just said, I find, like, being around [01:28:35] really enlightened human beings, and [01:28:40] you can’t really get much more enlightened than Jesus and Dalai Lama. I find that even [01:28:45] by osmosis, would they not even say anything? There’s something that I [01:28:50] gain, but especially when they start talking, I think it’ll be very interesting to simply observe, [01:28:55] like listen, to learn the conversation that goes on between those three. And [01:29:00] do you know if it even did a little bit of good by [01:29:05] one of the most powerful leaders in the world at the moment, just [01:29:10] so can a little bit of whatever these two have to offer. That’s a great thing, [01:29:15] right? So it benefits not just it’s more than me in that in that room, but it might [01:29:20] benefit a whole lot of other people. And you know what? It would be so wonderful to see [01:29:25] how enlightened human beings manage [01:29:30] conversation where, you know, if I’m like, [01:29:35] pissed off with somebody, I might start going into like very unhelpful behaviours, right? Because I’m a human being [01:29:40] and I’m triggered and you name it, but I just don’t imagine that would happen. So the modelling [01:29:45] that would go on for dealing with and adversarial [01:29:50] people or circumstances or, or just political [01:29:55] debate, it would be so interesting to see how that was handled from [01:30:00] an observer’s perspective.

[TRANSITION]: It’s interesting.

Payman Langroudi: That’s why I’ve never had something like that before. That’s very [01:30:05] interesting.

Sarovi Davda: Okay. Very weird.

[TRANSITION]: I know you.

Payman Langroudi: Said before, you said you’re spiritual. You said you do [01:30:10] like a prayer here and there.

Sarovi Davda: Here and there.

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: What is your sort of, you [01:30:15] know, religious or your relationship with God or whatever, but how [01:30:20] would you characterise that?

[TRANSITION]: Um.

Sarovi Davda: Deep and wide. [01:30:25] How is my relationship? That’s how to explain it. It’s like. There [01:30:30] isn’t a day that goes by where I don’t touch in with God or whatever you want [01:30:35] to call it. It’s like everyone’s God is different. I don’t think there’s.

[TRANSITION]: A set like.

Payman Langroudi: A prayer.

[TRANSITION]: Like a.

Sarovi Davda: Yeah. So every day [01:30:40] I say the serenity prayer.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Sarovi Davda: And. I [01:30:45] say a couple of prayers that like literature that I’ve read [01:30:50] about, I suppose, like the laws of life that, you know, God has not given [01:30:55] me the right to control another human being. And that kind of sets me into this place of detachment. [01:31:00] And just I think one of my roles of as a human being [01:31:05] is through whatever God given gifts I’ve been given is to be of [01:31:10] service. So to kind of like just before this, you know, I, um, it would be like, [01:31:15] whatever comes out my mouth, may I be a vessel for, like, some good stuff, basically. [01:31:20] That’s it. And whether I, I think whether you believe in God or not, it could be the universe. It could [01:31:25] be like an energy. It doesn’t really matter. I don’t think there’s a prescriptive way of [01:31:30] looking at a higher power God, universe, creator, whatever you want to call it him, her [01:31:35] they. But just something that is more than just me, [01:31:40] that connects every single one of us a little bit, like, you know, fungi. [01:31:45] Yeah, the interconnectedness of all. And if that energetic goodness [01:31:50] can be transmitted in some way and touched even one [01:31:55] human being, that’s awesome. That’s really cool.

Payman Langroudi: That’s really [01:32:00] nicely put. Thank you. Because I really struggle with the whole spiritual side until I realised that [01:32:05] it’s the nature of it that you can’t describe it.

Sarovi Davda: I [01:32:10] think you can be.

[TRANSITION]: I mean, you describe you described it though, without.

Sarovi Davda: Believing in spirituality.

Payman Langroudi: You described [01:32:15] it very, very well there. Yeah. But normally if you ask someone about, you know, what does spirituality or spirituality [01:32:20] mean to you? I don’t know. The answers are just very. But. But then I realised very [01:32:25] late in the day that it is the nature of spirituality that it’s not possible [01:32:30] to describe it in simple one plus one equals two terms. That’s the nature of it. That’s what we’re discussing, [01:32:35] something that isn’t so black and white and that that doesn’t change [01:32:40] my position on it. But that was really beautiful what you just said.

[TRANSITION]: Really beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: Final question. [01:32:45]

[TRANSITION]: Hmm.

Payman Langroudi: Deathbed.

Sarovi Davda: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Three pieces of advice for friends and family. [01:32:50]

Sarovi Davda: Okay, so I when I was asked this originally, I didn’t realise it was three. So I [01:32:55] definitely have one that might cover all. So my loved ones on their deathbed, [01:33:00] I would say to my girls. Listen [01:33:05] to the quiet voice within that guides [01:33:10] you. Make space for it. And that’s kind of it. [01:33:15] And I’ll tell you why. There’s only really one piece. Because for me to advise [01:33:20] any other human being on kind of potentially what to do, what to think, what to believe is [01:33:25] simply from my history, my beliefs, my traumas, [01:33:30] my colourings, whatever. So actually, the only person that the advice is [01:33:35] right for is me. I’m not qualified to really give any advice [01:33:40] to any other human being, because I genuinely believe we all have that inner knowledge within. [01:33:45] Every single one of us had knows what is right for us [01:33:50] in any given moment. But I can certainly, as a human being, identify with [01:33:55] drowning out that voice, with societal norms, with the things I’ve mentioned, [01:34:00] with just being too busy or too loud. But personally, when [01:34:05] I get really quiet and I listen to that whisper and give it some volume [01:34:10] that, you know, the talking is of, again, a spiritual being. My inner child, [01:34:15] whatever it may be, I already know what’s right, so I’d be that.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:34:20] like the way you talk about this stuff. You should maybe go into that stuff a bit more. [01:34:25]

[TRANSITION]: Maybe I should.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful.

[TRANSITION]: Really beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much for doing it. Thanks [01:34:30] for coming all the way.

Sarovi Davda: Thank you so much for having me.

[VOICE]: This is Dental [01:34:35] Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [01:34:40] leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, [01:34:45] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, [01:34:50] guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you [01:34:55] both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our [01:35:00] guests has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

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