In this Dental Leaders episode, Payman sits down with Sam Cope, a dentist whose journey to dentistry began in physiotherapy.

Known for his focus on minimally invasive cosmetic dentistry, Sam discusses the habits that keep his clinical days finely tuned, the influence of mentors, and his obsession with detail. He reflects on how his background in physio shaped his approach to patient care, back health, and long-term sustainability in dentistry.

The conversation ranges from composite techniques and mental health to happiness, burnout, and redefining success. Honest, introspective, and often unexpectedly profound, this is an episode that challenges what it means to thrive in modern dentistry.

 

In This Episode

00:01:00 – Daily habits and preparation

00:13:00 – Mentorship and clinical growth

00:25:00 – Blackbox thinking: Mistakes & lessons

00:35:00 – From physio to dentistry

00:47:00 – Adversity and inner drive

00:58:00 – Mental health and fulfilment

01:10:00 – Dentistry, stress and back pain

01:23:00 – Work-life balance philosophy

01:36:00 – Living below your means

01:48:00 – Fantasy dinner party guests

 

About Sam Cope

Sam Cope is a minimally invasive cosmetic dentist based at Love Teeth, known for his highly refined clinical systems and patient-focused care. Originally trained as a physiotherapist, he transitioned into dentistry after discovering a passion for aesthetic and restorative treatment. Sam combines his love for detail with a strong belief in reflection, mentorship, and doing fewer things, better.

Payman Langroudi: Tooth sensitivity is an enigma, and it probably becomes a big issue [00:00:05] in different situations in dentistry, but definitely comes to a head in whitening if you have any [00:00:10] problems with sensitive patients. Patients with dentine hypersensitivity to have a go with the enlightened [00:00:15] comfort bundle. It’s a bioactive glass pen with a [00:00:20] hydroxyapatite toothpaste combination that works really well in all cases of [00:00:25] severe sensitivity. So have a look on enlightened Wspa.com. The enlightened comfort bundle. [00:00:30] Let’s get to the pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders, the podcast [00:00:40] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi [00:00:50] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome [00:00:55] Sam Cope onto the pod. Sam is a I would describe you as a minimally [00:01:00] invasive cosmetic dentist. Really? Um, a dentist who started [00:01:05] out as a physiotherapist. Um, a pleasure to have you, buddy.

Sam Cope: Yeah. Thanks so much. And thanks [00:01:10] for inviting me on the podcast. I’ve been I’ve listened a lot to the podcast and [00:01:15] with different people that have been on and things. So it’s yeah, it’s it’s when do you listen inspirational [00:01:20] that you have these people on.

Payman Langroudi: When do you listen?

Sam Cope: I actually [00:01:25] listen to my podcast when I’m in the gym. So I think it’s good because [00:01:30] it keeps you in the gym for longer and it’s almost dead time. So that’s what I listen. [00:01:35] Yeah, that’s what I listen.

Payman Langroudi: And how often do you go to the gym?

Sam Cope: Probably about four times. 4 or 5 times a week. [00:01:40] Oh, really? Yeah. I try and get into a routine. Yeah, usually. Usually in the mornings [00:01:45] or like, sometimes after work. I’ve. I’ve placed the gym so that when I, as I [00:01:50] walk home from work, I walk past the gym. So it’s a, it’s a real guilt trip if I don’t go. [00:01:55] So I’ve kind of done that on purpose just so.

Payman Langroudi: Have you read that Atomic Habits book or something.

Sam Cope: I actually [00:02:00] haven’t. Why? Is that something that you said?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sam Cope: Oh, right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So. Yeah, [00:02:05] that’s that’s what I do usually.

Payman Langroudi: So what time is that then? What time? What time do you wake up?

Sam Cope: Um, [00:02:10] usually about 6:45. Yeah. And then [00:02:15] I, I only work now clinically three days. So I [00:02:20] work Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. So all of teeth. All at love teeth.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Sam Cope: Monday and Tuesday [00:02:25] I have off. But I use that to reflect on all the cases [00:02:30] that I’m doing and also to do other things like things like this, all the fun things. [00:02:35] But I think reflecting on your practice [00:02:40] and going through, because I take pictures of everything, all the stages, and I go through all the cases [00:02:45] that I’ve done the week before, and I go through the cases that I’m going to do in the week, so that when I have my [00:02:50] clinical days, they are super kind of refined and everybody knows exactly what they’re doing. [00:02:55] I have like a list that my nurse has so she knows exactly what to get [00:03:00] out for each patient. So everything just works like a really fine tuned machine. So [00:03:05] having those two days works really well.

Payman Langroudi: How did you get into that habit? Um, [00:03:10] by chance, you are you, like, a massive perfectionist like you? [00:03:15]

Sam Cope: Um, I think I got into it just from different mentors and different [00:03:20] influences that I’ve had in the past. I remember like when I was when I was [00:03:25] in Liverpool, I was at the Dental house, and I remember Stuart Garton saying [00:03:30] to me, you know, dentistry, it’s it’s a marathon. It’s not a sprint. Yeah. And [00:03:35] I didn’t really understand that at the time because I was that one.

Payman Langroudi: Of your first jobs?

Sam Cope: That was. Yeah, my, one of my NHS first [00:03:40] jobs, which at the time I thought, you know, I didn’t really understand what it meant, but now I understand completely [00:03:45] what it means. There’s no like the faster you try to go, it seems like it [00:03:50] can be counterproductive. You make the same mistakes. Yeah, but if you kind of take it slow, You learn [00:03:55] from your mistakes and then you can. You can grow. You get so much better.

Payman Langroudi: Give [00:04:00] me an example. Then when you’re when you’re looking at cases, past [00:04:05] cases and future cases on that day off. Give me an example of something that [00:04:10] you learn by doing that, that the next man doesn’t learn by not doing that. [00:04:15] Like, what kind of thing are we talking.

Sam Cope: Yeah. So I’ll be I’ll, I’ll [00:04:20] do a case and then I’ll look at all of the pictures and something that, you know, the patient walks out, they’re super [00:04:25] happy. Um, and you’re kind of buzzing because you’ve just finished your Invisalign. [00:04:30] You’ve done the composite, and it looks fantastic. You look at the pictures [00:04:35] and you look at kind of your build ups and things, and you think, actually that [00:04:40] tooth looks a little bit grey. Like if we if, you know, if I was going to post that, it [00:04:45] looks a little bit grey. Not really too happy with it. I’ve probably placed too much enamel. So really I need to increase [00:04:50] the dentine layer. Or it could be, you know, you’re cutting veneers [00:04:55] and you look at the the prep and you think, actually, I’ve over prepped there. Or you might say, actually [00:05:00] there’s a, there is a little bit of a black triangle. So maybe I should have taken through the [00:05:05] interproximal aspects, gum levels as well. [00:05:10] I find sometimes where you’ll finish the case and everything looks great, and then you can see [00:05:15] that one of the gums is, you know, slightly square rather than having a nice curve [00:05:20] to it. So you think, actually, if I’d had just done a little bit of laser or laser or something, yeah, [00:05:25] that would have looked great, or using some of the gum cutting burrs I find [00:05:30] works really well. Um, only if it’s for something very, very small.

Payman Langroudi: When I was a dentist, [00:05:35] there was this burr that used to cut gum and coagulate at the same time. Do you know what I’m talking [00:05:40] about? It’s like a ceramic burr.

Sam Cope: Yeah, I think.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the.

Sam Cope: One I’m using. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Does that still exist? [00:05:45] Yeah.

Sam Cope: Canal, um, introduced me to that burr. Oh, really? Yeah. It does work really well, [00:05:50] I think with with kind of gum contouring and things I’ve done Reena Wadia’s [00:05:55] course for crown lengthening. I think if you’re doing like very small you.

Payman Langroudi: Can do that. [00:06:00]

Sam Cope: Yeah, you can do it, but if not then definitely recommend kind of doing flaps and [00:06:05] and are.

Payman Langroudi: You comfortable with blood. Are you comfortable with flaps and implants [00:06:10] and things?

Sam Cope: I don’t do implants, but I would be happy with doing the flaps [00:06:15] and things I’d say.

Payman Langroudi: I’d say that’s something that one of the things that keeps people away from implants, [00:06:20] right. That not not comfortable with flaps, not comfortable with taking flaps back [00:06:25] and putting them, you know, suturing them back together again.

Sam Cope: Yeah. That’s true. I [00:06:30] think, um, you’ve got I think you’ve just got to learn how everything can fail, but then [00:06:35] you to feel comfortable. So then, you know, if you know, then what you can do [00:06:40] to fix it. I think that’s the key.

Payman Langroudi: Did you qualify?

Sam Cope: So I qualify 2019. [00:06:45]

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Sam Cope: Yeah. So not that long ago.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. That’s pretty. That’s [00:06:50] pretty good going. What? You’re what you’re up to in five years.

Sam Cope: Yeah, I suppose [00:06:55] I’ve had great mentors and I’ve just practised so much, [00:07:00] like most. I remember when I was in the Dental house, I was really lucky because [00:07:05] it was an NHS contract that I had, but most of the [00:07:10] clinicians that were working in there say orthodontists, um, people doing composite veneers. [00:07:15] So I had great mentors from them who just, just let me watch as well, which is quite rare [00:07:20] for dentists, I think. So a lot of dentists don’t want you to see what they’re doing. But I had [00:07:25] say if I was going to name drop Kate Jigs Patel. Viraj Patel. [00:07:30] Yeah, such lovely people, even, um, even Stuart [00:07:35] Garson and Rick, they, you know, let me come in and watch them and I’d spend my [00:07:40] days off kind of coming in to watch them because I’d have a day off in the week. And you find that you’re [00:07:45] clinical. You’ll, you’ll always learn from another dentist just by watching them, no matter what dentist [00:07:50] they are, I’m loving.

Payman Langroudi: I’m loving the fact that you’re sort of putting [00:07:55] days off as part of the education. I’m loving that. It’s [00:08:00] weird. Like for me, in my head, that sort of reminds me of, I don’t know, an advert where you have nothing in one [00:08:05] corner of an advert, we call it Negative Space. Yeah, a negative space in dental education. [00:08:10] Like you’re saying, back then, you were taking a day off and watching people, [00:08:15] you know, shadowing them. And right now you’re taking days off and [00:08:20] using those days off to treat and plan and reflect on your previous work. It’s kind [00:08:25] of an interesting thing, man, because, you know, it’s like maybe, you know, like they say, own the gym, don’t [00:08:30] don’t go to the gym seven days a week, you know, like allow some rest and recuperation. [00:08:35] Like in in our terms, in education terms, rest and recuperation doesn’t necessarily [00:08:40] mean sitting on the sofa watching TV. It could mean not having [00:08:45] to be there at 830 in the morning, all dressed up. But working on your career? [00:08:50]

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And very interesting.

Sam Cope: Yeah, yeah, I think doing the three days a week [00:08:55] is great because it means you still kind of you’re like, fired and [00:09:00] ready to go every week. You’re kind of like, oh, I’m actually ready to get back into work now and see impatience. Yeah. And [00:09:05] then on the days off, it’s great as well. I usually have my weekends where it’s just chill [00:09:10] and I try not to think about work. And then on the Monday, Tuesday, I can kind of really [00:09:15] focus down on what’s going on, find, um, I find Instagram and [00:09:20] social media that takes up a lot of time. I was thinking of even getting a kind [00:09:25] of social media manager or something, but they’re really expensive as well. And you’re [00:09:30] always wondering, like, are they going to be able to portray you as well as you’d be able to portray yourself [00:09:35] with the photos and things?

Payman Langroudi: So to start with, no, the thing about [00:09:40] taking people on to do things is to start with quality will drop Compared [00:09:45] to you doing it yourself. Yeah, whoever that is, whatever the job is. Yeah. Because, you know, [00:09:50] you yourself, at the end of the day, you know, it’s it’s the way you want something done. Mhm. But [00:09:55] it’s also the thief of growth.

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know the [00:10:00] comparison is the thief of joy. Yeah. It’s the thief of growth because people who can’t [00:10:05] delegate generally have got sort of like a trust issue. Yeah. [00:10:10] Or a communication issue. Like I find for me it’s more a communication [00:10:15] issue than a trust issue. Some people are just brilliant at setting out what the task [00:10:20] is, what the deliverable is, and you know what progress looks like for someone [00:10:25] else. Yeah. But with me, when I when I’m asking someone to do something, I just [00:10:30] almost like saying I’ll figure it out sort of thing. And even if even though I know this fact, [00:10:35] it doesn’t come naturally to me to delegate in that way. Um, so [00:10:40] those two things trust and communication. But what will happen is that there’s like a dip. [00:10:45] And then if the person’s any good, it’ll be, you know, like the volume of, [00:10:50] of output will outdo the dip. Mhm. And just depends man. It depends [00:10:55] if you’re the type of person who, you know, if one post that’s incorrect is going [00:11:00] to break your heart, then you better not grow.

Sam Cope: I was uh [00:11:05] I’ve got two younger brothers. Yeah. And they’re in this social media age. [00:11:10] They must be you. Oh, yeah. They’ve definitely broke the 10,000 hour rule [00:11:15] on. Oh, really? Yeah. So I was thinking, like, maybe it’s a good idea to kind of teach them, [00:11:20] and they can. I’ll give them a bit of pocket money. Yeah, they can do it. They’re probably better than these social [00:11:25] media managers and things if they if you help them to grow. But I agree [00:11:30] with you. I mean, I, I use different composite techniques and wax ups to [00:11:35] do my composites and I wanted some I wanted something doing well. So [00:11:40] I went to the lab, got to know the lab technicians really well, and [00:11:45] I showed them kind of how I want to do things. And we learned from each other because a lot of dentists [00:11:50] don’t go to the labs. And also a lot of the lab technicians are quite away from what goes on in the clinic. [00:11:55] So I definitely recommend for anyone listening to this to go to the lab, get [00:12:00] to know your technician, and kind of you can go back and forward with, you know, what you know [00:12:05] and what can help. And they can tell you what. And also they tell you new materials that are in and different techniques. [00:12:10] And you can also, if you’re really nice to them, they might even show you some other dentists work, [00:12:15] which also is really good to see.

Payman Langroudi: You know, education right. You’ve got, [00:12:20] you know, letters after your name type education. You’ve got short courses [00:12:25] and, you know, diploma type courses. You’ve got books. I don’t think you should. You should, [00:12:30] you know, people don’t buy enough books because books books sound expensive. [00:12:35] When you look at them you think, oh, £400 for a book, but that’s nothing compared to a course. Yeah. [00:12:40] And the amount of I mean, what tends to happen with the book is the author has got [00:12:45] the pride that, you know, if we’re putting a book out, I’m going to put value into that book. [00:12:50] And there’s. But then, but then education from your technician. I [00:12:55] had one technician who was just an absolute gem. He taught me so much. So much. [00:13:00] Um, brilliant guy, John Oliver in Kent. Um, [00:13:05] but but also salespeople. You know, it’s funny. People, people [00:13:10] tell their receptionists, keep salespeople away. But that salesman [00:13:15] who comes into your practice with the whatever it is, you know, whatever the guy [00:13:20] is selling, he’s got product knowledge. He’s got market knowledge, you know, [00:13:25] that you’re not going to have you’re not going to have. He’s going to tell you what the most successful [00:13:30] dentists using that product is doing and, and how and [00:13:35] that’s gold. And yet we spend our time telling our receptionist. Keep salesmen away. [00:13:40] Salesmen for me are, yes, free CPD for someone who wants to sell [00:13:45] you something. Yes, he wants to sell you something. But free CPD and education [00:13:50] is so multifactorial. What would you say is the most valuable? [00:13:55] I’d say the shadowing one.

Sam Cope: Yeah, the shadowing is very good because, I mean, [00:14:00] I spent a little bit of time with, um, with Rosie, [00:14:05] and she was an oral surgeon, and she showed me how to take teeth out. And I swear I’ve learned more [00:14:10] in that morning with her than I did throughout my whole university. Just really [00:14:15] simple techniques that you look at her taking a tooth out and it just looks like you think. You think to yourself, [00:14:20] you know, God, what my teeth actually held in with because she’s getting them out. They’re just falling out like rain. [00:14:25] Yeah. Um, but, yeah, it’s probably the most important thing.

Payman Langroudi: When did you when did you [00:14:30] decide the kind of dentist you wanted to be? At what point did you [00:14:35] decide, or maybe you haven’t decided yet. Yeah, but were you the type [00:14:40] in university to be thinking I want to be a [00:14:45] private dentist, or I want to be a cosmetic dentist? Or what do you think? What were you thinking [00:14:50] at university about your career going forward?

Sam Cope: So I come from a very kind of 21st [00:14:55] century family. I’ve got a step grandad and a step uncle. Go [00:15:00] on. Yeah. Spell that.

Payman Langroudi: Spell that out for me. Spell it.

Sam Cope: Spell it out. So my grandma remarried. [00:15:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sam Cope: So he’s my step granddad. And then his son is my step uncle. [00:15:10]

Payman Langroudi: He’s got a whole step family then.

Sam Cope: Yeah, yeah. Oh, God. Yeah. I’ve got, like, six brothers. [00:15:15] Like, I won’t go into all of that. It’s like four step brothers. Two half brothers. It [00:15:20] just goes on. But I found that I was [00:15:25] watching. I was watching my step granddad work because he was a dentist and my step uncle was a dentist. [00:15:30] Oh, really? So he worked in a predominantly NHS practice. I shadowed him [00:15:35] and that, you know, he was very old school [00:15:40] and he would just see. You know, 50 patients, maybe more a day, [00:15:45] and he’d have two surgeries running and he’d just bat between the two. No communication happened between [00:15:50] him and his patients. It was just I’d say to him, oh, what did you do for that patient? He went, oh, we just did a root canal. [00:15:55] I was like, did he even know that? Whereas my step uncle, [00:16:00] he he works on Pont Street and he’s fantastic. And [00:16:05] he sees lots of kind of high end people in London. Yeah. Pont Street [00:16:10] in London. Oh, okay. Yeah. And he does fantastic work. That was kind of what inspired me to do [00:16:15] dentistry. I saw him once. There was a woman and her tooth was completely [00:16:20] shattered. She’d fallen over and he’d just rebuilt it so fast with composite. [00:16:25] But when I was, when I was at university, I’d always just thought I was going to do general dentistry. [00:16:30] I never had like a massive flair for composite or anything like that, really. [00:16:35] But when I did my foundation year, my friends were saying, [00:16:40] oh, we’re going to do like a composite course. So I ended up going on the totally [00:16:45] composite one with monarch, and I watched him kind of.

Payman Langroudi: As a foundation.

Sam Cope: As a foundation. [00:16:50] Yeah, just towards the end. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Good time to do it.

Sam Cope: And I just found like [00:16:55] after after doing a course like that, I was like, wow. I never realised [00:17:00] that because, you know, when you’re at university you’re taught how [00:17:05] to do something, but you have this huge anxiety that, oh, if I get this wrong, then [00:17:10] I’m going to have to reset the year or I’m going to have to reset the class. So you can never really relax. And I feel [00:17:15] that you learn when you’re relaxed and you’re you’re enjoying it. And and when [00:17:20] you can see that you can do it, then it’s just yeah, fantastic. So I did I did that, [00:17:25] then I ended up doing the year long course with him. And it was after that that I thought, yeah, [00:17:30] do you know what? I think I’d really like to do the composite.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of stream.

Sam Cope: That kind of dentistry. [00:17:35] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the journey from schoolboy to physiotherapist [00:17:40] to dental school.

Sam Cope: Yeah. So I through [00:17:45] so I always really liked biology helping people. [00:17:50] So I thought, you know, doing something to do with medicine would be great. [00:17:55] I then finished, finished school [00:18:00] and I just didn’t think I was going to get the grades to do medicine or dentistry. So I looked elsewhere. [00:18:05] I was thinking like, maybe I should do biomedical sciences or something, but [00:18:10] then somebody with.

Payman Langroudi: A view, with a view to eventually doing.

Sam Cope: With a view to move. And then somebody said, well, you’re [00:18:15] probably just really enjoy physio. So I did physio and I did that at King’s [00:18:20] in London and that was amazing. It was very research heavy. [00:18:25] Um, so it was very intense. I actually, I’ll be honest, I found [00:18:30] the exams for physio a lot harder than the exams for dentistry. Really? And [00:18:35] it was. It was a fantastic experience and it was intense because [00:18:40] we’d have, you’d have 9 to 5 lectures every day and then the summer holidays you’d [00:18:45] spend on placements and you’d think that in London, you know, [00:18:50] there’s loads of hospitals in London that you could go and but there’s also loads of universities in London [00:18:55] students. So you could be shipped off to Middlesex, Kent for your placements [00:19:00] and then, you know, you’re, you’re in hospital accommodation, which I’ll, I’ll tell you is [00:19:05] dire. Yeah. It’s horrible.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve spent I’ve spent a fair amount of time in hospital accommodation. [00:19:10]

Sam Cope: Yeah. It’s it’s like you’re in a cardboard box with. So, [00:19:15] um, so.

Payman Langroudi: You’re telling me physio what is as hard a degree as dentistry?

Sam Cope: I thought it was harder. [00:19:20] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s so interesting, man.

Sam Cope: It was.

Payman Langroudi: It was the hardest degree around. [00:19:25] That’s so interesting, man.

Sam Cope: Yeah, I felt I mean, I suppose [00:19:30] I’d already done physiotherapy, so I already knew how to learn. But when I was doing my [00:19:35] dental degree, I was working as a physio Monday, Tuesday nights [00:19:40] and Saturdays.

Payman Langroudi: During the degree.

Sam Cope: During the degree. Wow. And then I [00:19:45] even like I remember the night before my finals, I had like a list of five patients [00:19:50] in the evening.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Sam Cope: Um, mainly. I mean, I know that sounds ridiculous, [00:19:55] but it was mainly just so that I could switch off because I just thought, well, I’m not going to learn anything now. I might as well make a [00:20:00] little bit of money and just kind of set my mind aside.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s a bit different to my night [00:20:05] before the exam. I’ll tell you that. The caffeine tablets. I [00:20:10] was studying all that, but. So you worked [00:20:15] as a physio for how long before deciding to do dentistry? [00:20:20]

Sam Cope: So I finished, I finished my degree in physiotherapy, and then I worked for a year [00:20:25] as a physiotherapist, so I was working full time, seeing 20 patients [00:20:30] a day and it was really good. I learned a lot and you learn a lot [00:20:35] about neck back pain, how that works, and then you also learn loads about how [00:20:40] to treat it. So I was also the physio for Millwall rugby team, [00:20:45] which was cool. And then whilst I was doing dentistry I had my own. I [00:20:50] worked for a private clinic so I was on Rodney Street in Liverpool working there, but [00:20:55] then I was also the physiotherapist for Merseyside Fire and Rescue and the Philharmonic [00:21:00] Orchestra, so that was really cool. So I used to get free tickets to the Philharmonic, and then I used to get [00:21:05] some cool stories from the fire brigade.

Payman Langroudi: In a way. On the top of your game in physio, [00:21:10] I mean one year out, but still on the top on a trajectory to be a top physio. [00:21:15] What is the reason for switching? Is the pay terrible? Is that [00:21:20] what it is? I mean, is the pay terrible?

Sam Cope: The pay is you work hard [00:21:25] for the pay that you get. But it wasn’t really that that stopped me. It was more the fact [00:21:30] that there’s a ceiling effect where I felt that the [00:21:35] more the more pay I could. You know, the trajectory was to either open up your own musculoskeletal [00:21:40] clinic, but then there’s only so many patients that you can see in a day. So then it would obviously [00:21:45] be looking at hiring associates and things, or it was going down the route of being with [00:21:50] a football team or a rugby team and following them around the world, which is intense. [00:21:55] And also I found that working for rugby teams and things you [00:22:00] are, you’re obviously there to help them and the players respect you, but you [00:22:05] I never really felt like I was part of the team. I always wanted to play rugby or football with [00:22:10] them because when you’re the person that they [00:22:15] come to when they’re injured, so you’re almost the person that they [00:22:20] don’t really want to see, which is fair enough.

Payman Langroudi: But what a.

Sam Cope: Yeah. So [00:22:25] I felt and also because I was thinking about, you know, the dentistry with my step [00:22:30] uncle and granddad. I just thought, do you know what I can? I could never really envision myself as [00:22:35] being a physio forever. I kind of wanted to branch out, and I thought that if [00:22:40] I didn’t take the opportunity to do dentistry or even medicine at that time, I probably [00:22:45] would never do it. So I thought, well, why don’t I just do the degree and then I can [00:22:50] always decide. I kept my physiotherapy running throughout just in case, [00:22:55] and I still have my Healthcare Professions council um, registration now so [00:23:00] I can still do physiotherapy if I, if I really wanted to, but um, [00:23:05] but yeah, that’s kind of what happened.

Payman Langroudi: And so with that insight [00:23:10] into physiotherapy, you must know a lot about dentists backs. [00:23:15]

Sam Cope: Yeah. We I did a lot of research with it where it [00:23:20] said something like 60 to 90% of dentists will get back [00:23:25] pain at some point in their life. Yeah, and I did a survey amongst, [00:23:30] um, final year students at Liverpool [00:23:35] Dental School and the results were quite, um, quite interesting where [00:23:40] it said, they said that something like 40% of dentists had experienced back or neck pain [00:23:45] in the last six months, and 14% had sought professional [00:23:50] help. The other thing was that the education was quite [00:23:55] poor, whereas most people thought that limiting exercise [00:24:00] and bed rest was probably the best way to manage back pain and [00:24:05] also to improve your posture. Whereas in actual [00:24:10] fact, it’s the opposite. Yeah, yeah. Um, for back pain, you need to be moving as much as possible. [00:24:15] And posture has limited to no [00:24:20] role in the amount of back pain that you have. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How much of [00:24:25] back pain is, is sort of specific to the to the patient as opposed [00:24:30] to their habits. You know how you know in perio disease there are susceptible [00:24:35] patients.

Sam Cope: Oh, okay.

Payman Langroudi: Are there backs that are more susceptible. I mean, [00:24:40] does does a back have intrinsic areas of weakness different for [00:24:45] each person? Or would you say in your opinion that it’s just like we all get a similar [00:24:50] back and some of us treat it better than others?

Sam Cope: Yeah. I mean, some I mean, some people [00:24:55] will have medical conditions like scoliosis, which will. Yeah, yeah. Which will make them more susceptible. [00:25:00]

Payman Langroudi: I guess there’s a preclinical kind of.

Sam Cope: But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That could be going on in many of us. Right.

Sam Cope: The [00:25:05] biggest factor is just the amount of exercise that you do. And also your [00:25:10] your mental state has a massive component on it. Stress. Yeah, [00:25:15] definitely. Yeah. Um, if you’re if you’re in a really good place and [00:25:20] you’re doing lots of exercise. It’s very unlikely that you’re you’ll get back pain. But if [00:25:25] you’re, you know, depressed or very stressed at work, then you’re much more likely [00:25:30] to get back and you’re not exercising, then you’re much more likely to get back pain. [00:25:35] And then it’s interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Because I took five years off clinical practice when we started enlightened, [00:25:40] and then after five years, what I had in my head was mothers get [00:25:45] pregnant, take five years off, and then they come back and become dentists again. I thought I could just about [00:25:50] pull it off, you know. So it took five years off. On my first day back and my first week [00:25:55] back, I had an awful back pain. Yeah, I don’t think it was because, oh, my back wasn’t used [00:26:00] to. It was the stress of giving an ID block for the first time [00:26:05] in five years. You know, or, you know, cutting a crown for the first time in five years. All the things [00:26:10] that I was stressed, I was worried about how it would be going back. And [00:26:15] then once I realised, oh, it’s okay, I’m all right. Suddenly, the back pain went straight away [00:26:20] like it was. It was the stress that was causing it. You know.

Sam Cope: I think a lot of the stress comes from [00:26:25] if you get back pain, a lot of people don’t know what it is and [00:26:30] they think, oh, wow, have I really injured my back? You know what’s going on? Is it muscle? Is it. And [00:26:35] I think when when I did physiotherapy, it was all about kind of doing different [00:26:40] tests and then trying to find out what was going on. But never would it be an x ray or MRI. [00:26:45] Whereas with a, with dentistry, you know, you have to take the x ray and you see the problem, [00:26:50] you treat it and then you get rid of the caries or you do the root canal. But it’s very different [00:26:55] with back pain. I’d say 90% of back pain is non-specific. There is no [00:27:00] you can do every MRI x ray on the planet. You’ll never find the pain. It’s [00:27:05] so there was interesting. Yeah, there was a study that was done on [00:27:10] the amount of it basically had thousands of people and they’d [00:27:15] done MRIs Memorised throughout, you know, 20, 30, 40, 50. You know, you can have early [00:27:20] osteoarthritic changes at 20, but there’s no pain. [00:27:25] It’s what you see on an MRI isn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Related.

Sam Cope: Related to the pain. [00:27:30] Yeah. Which is what? So that’s why it always worries me when, you know, people get private medical [00:27:35] insurance and they get a bit of back pain, and then they go and get an MRI and they say, oh, you’ve got [00:27:40] a herniated disc here, or you’ve got osteoarthritic changes or disc thinning. [00:27:45] And then they’ll say, oh, well, you know, I’m going to go and see the surgeon because the surgeon sees, [00:27:50] you know, he’s only really it’s almost like the one hammer, one nail kind of thing. [00:27:55] So I’d, I’d just recommend anybody that does have back pain just to firstly find [00:28:00] an evidence based physiotherapist and then see them first and [00:28:05] then go from there. Really.

Payman Langroudi: But then if let’s say there is [00:28:10] like a slipped disc that could be causing a big problem. I guess one of the things you guys have [00:28:15] to learn is when to refer to a back specialist or like one.

Sam Cope: Yeah, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Spinal surgeon [00:28:20] or whatever. What’s that thing called where you can cause incontinence if you don’t take care [00:28:25] of it straight away?

Sam Cope: It’s called cauda equina.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right.

Sam Cope: Um, but yeah, these. [00:28:30] I mean, it’s so rare.

Payman Langroudi: Is it?

Sam Cope: Yeah, yeah. I mean, but that’s why it’s [00:28:35] so important. As soon as you if you get if you get back pain, it’s best just to settle your mind. Go and see a physiotherapist. [00:28:40] Yeah. And then they’ll be able to tell you if there’s, if there’s a real problem. And also [00:28:45] the if you do have a real like a herniated disc, then usually you’ll have [00:28:50] burning pins and needles, numbness down one or both legs all the time. Incontinence. [00:28:55] Yeah. You wouldn’t be waiting for your appointment. You know, you’d just be.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sam Cope: You’d [00:29:00] know.

Payman Langroudi: So as a dentist, what are the things that we do that are really bad for our backs? Is [00:29:05] it as obvious as we don’t use loops and we, you know, what [00:29:10] are the top tips? What can we do? Exercise, stretch. That sort of thing.

Sam Cope: Yeah, I’d say top tips are [00:29:15] when you’re in surgery, the best posture is the next posture. Don’t [00:29:20] try and stick into one posture.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, interesting.

Sam Cope: Do whatever you feel is more comfortable. [00:29:25] And then that will really help with your pain. Another thing would be [00:29:30] our days are stressful. You know, you see the BDA guidelines of, you know, [00:29:35] you’ve got to do so many stretches in between patients and you’ve got to sit with one patient, stand with the next [00:29:40] patient.

Payman Langroudi: Is that right?

Sam Cope: That’s like, you know that’s intense. Like our days are already intense enough. [00:29:45] And if you’ve got like 30 NHS patients a day, how would you remember to do all this stuff? You won’t remember. [00:29:50] The most important thing is just to, you know, the NHS guidelines is to do 150 [00:29:55] minutes of moderate intensity exercise every day. Just going for a run or doing [00:30:00] the exercise that you enjoy is the most important, because that’s the one that you’ll continue [00:30:05] to do. If you try and force yourself to do, I don’t know the rowing machine and you don’t [00:30:10] like rowing, you won’t do it. You’ve got to give yourself an achievable goal. Um, [00:30:15] but also I do, um, I like it in America, where, you know, if you [00:30:20] want to get, like, strong, then you’ll get a personal trainer to help you in the gym. [00:30:25] Yeah. I feel like as a dentist, like, we go through so much stress, which we don’t [00:30:30] really talk to other people about it because I think it can be perceived as weakness or you’re [00:30:35] not doing your job correctly. But I think seeing counselling or having, um, psychological [00:30:40] help or therapist. Yeah, it’s really good. It’s almost like a personal trainer for your brain. [00:30:45] For your mind. Yeah. And all that. You know, you see these high corporate Americans or [00:30:50] even, like the people in Liverpool Street here or Fenchurch [00:30:55] Street, they’ve all got their own therapists because their jobs are so stressful. Talking [00:31:00] to them and then giving them strategies and being able to to help them really [00:31:05] helps you to kind of negotiate what’s going on in your [00:31:10] life and helps to reduce the stresses and makes you a better person, but also helps you deal [00:31:15] with your job and problems in a much more efficient way.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I think, you know, I do [00:31:20] that mental health thing with Rona, and one thing I found is very useful [00:31:25] way of looking at it is kind of what you said about, you know, there is a spectrum all the way from fully optimising [00:31:30] on one side to, you know, being really, really down on the other side. [00:31:35] And you can go up and down that, that staircase. Um, but [00:31:40] that, you know, some people will be on stair nine out of ten and want to get to ten out of ten because they [00:31:45] want to optimise as executives or whatever, and they’ll use a therapist for that. And some people [00:31:50] will be at rock bottom and want to just, you know, survive that. Um, [00:31:55] do you think that with your generation the sort of taboo of that is [00:32:00] less or would you say it’s still there?

Sam Cope: I think it’s definitely I think it’s definitely less [00:32:05] in my generation. I mean, I’m I know I’ve at the moment, my dad’s going through [00:32:10] some troubles and I’ve said, you know, you need to go and see a therapist and things and you do get a lot [00:32:15] of resistance.

Payman Langroudi: From from his generation.

Sam Cope: Yeah, he’s in his 60s and he’s, you [00:32:20] know, he’s the I feel like the life philosophies are very different, probably [00:32:25] from the parents talking to them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sam Cope: I read a really interesting study. It was [00:32:30] I’m sure you’ve probably heard of it before, but it was a Harvard study and [00:32:35] it was called the Adult Development Research, and [00:32:40] it was basically 7 or 800 people, and they came [00:32:45] from all different backgrounds. Most of them were kind of Harvard guys. And then they also [00:32:50] got quite a few from Boston where they were kind of at rock bottom. And [00:32:55] they did a long term trial that went well. It’s still ongoing now, but it’s over [00:33:00] about eight years. And they were looking at happiness and [00:33:05] they found that. The trial’s almost conclusion. [00:33:10] I mean, it’s still ongoing, but happiness doesn’t come from fame, material [00:33:15] wealth. It comes from the quality of personal [00:33:20] relationships that you have with friends and family. That was the biggest determinant of [00:33:25] life longevity, happiness. And yeah, [00:33:30] and just overall overall kind of quality of life as well.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting isn’t [00:33:35] it? I mean, I think I was 45 before I disassociated happiness from [00:33:40] joy.

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I was up to 45, up to [00:33:45] 44. I used to think happiness must have a giant component of joy. [00:33:50] Mhm. And yet now I’ve changed my mind on it. I’ve changed my mind on it. I mean, [00:33:55] it’s surely nice to have joy around, right. There’s no there’s no doubt about that. Yeah. But I used to equate [00:34:00] them together so much and that’s not the case. I [00:34:05] felt it’s good for someone who learned this skill. I was I was telling my kid, I was telling my my 13 year [00:34:10] old about it, and I was saying, it’s much better for you to learn it at 13 than than wait till 44. [00:34:15]

Sam Cope: Yeah. It’s so true. I mean, I was listening to a podcast with [00:34:20] Steven Bartlett, and he had somebody on there and he, you know, after you earn a certain amount [00:34:25] of money, I think the figure is like 100, 150,000 or something. Anything you earn [00:34:30] over that amount, it’s not really improving your happiness. It’s it’s just pleasure. So [00:34:35] like when you buy like the latest Ferrari or a new watch or something like that. [00:34:40] Yeah. You are, you’re giving yourself joy or pleasure. Yeah. And pleasure [00:34:45] and joy. That’s addictive. Yes. You want to get the next thing.

Payman Langroudi: Short and.

Sam Cope: Short bursts. [00:34:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sam Cope: And I think the key thing for that is, you know, a lot [00:34:55] of dentists are working five days a week and trying to trying to fund this pleasure. [00:35:00] Yeah. And I think sometimes it’s good to take a step back. You know, you don’t need to keep [00:35:05] up with the Joneses, you know? You see, my my step dad said to me [00:35:10] he was. He worked on the rigs and he was the manager of the the rig. He was [00:35:15] on the biggest amount of money. And one of the roustabouts, he was like the guy that’s like mopping [00:35:20] the rig. He said to him, like, God, it must be great being you. Like you’ve got so much [00:35:25] money. And Graham just said to him, look, the more money you earn, it’s just [00:35:30] different levels of skint because you just end up buying a bigger house [00:35:35] or buying something else, and then you just become a slave to what you own. Yeah. And I think I was listening [00:35:40] to this Jemmy Carr podcast and he was saying.

Payman Langroudi: I love him. I love.

Sam Cope: Him outside.

Payman Langroudi: Of comedy. [00:35:45] I like him in comedy. But when I’ve heard him speak outside of comedy, I [00:35:50] really, really like him.

Sam Cope: So philosophical.

Payman Langroudi: He’s brilliant. What is he saying? What was he saying?

Sam Cope: So he said [00:35:55] he was, um. He was taken. He was in America, and [00:36:00] this guy was taking him around this massive house and you had like, you know, [00:36:05] tons of cars and Ferraris and stuff. And he said to him, he took [00:36:10] him around that he was giving him a tour of the house, and he showed him this piece of artwork, and he said, Jemmy, [00:36:15] I bet this piece of artwork is probably worth [00:36:20] more than your whole salary for the year. And he says, and [00:36:25] then Jemmy, he’s great at his comebacks, isn’t he? Yeah, yeah. And he just said. He [00:36:30] said, you know what? Well, I’ve got something that he will never have. [00:36:35] The guy was like, what? Enough.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. Yeah. [00:36:40]

Sam Cope: And it’s so true isn’t it. Yeah. And I think for dentists too. Like [00:36:45] when is enough. Enough. When have you got what. Everything that you [00:36:50] need. Like why do you have to keep striving for like the next car or the next Rolex or [00:36:55] the next something. I think sometimes it’s good.

Payman Langroudi: I take your point and it’s a very good point. It’s a correct [00:37:00] point. Yeah. And it’s funny because in my language, the [00:37:05] root word for contentment and for wealth [00:37:10] is the same, same word, which is [00:37:15] sad, right? Because those two are very different to each other. But but there [00:37:20] is a thing. There is a thing. I remember talking to Robbie Hughes. You’ll know him. And [00:37:25] chasing watches and cars and planes is ridiculously stupid. [00:37:30] And there’s always a bigger watch and plane and car and all that, and it runs out very quickly. But I will [00:37:35] say something about money. Acceleration of wealth is very exciting. [00:37:40]

Sam Cope: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: For a while, for a second, for about a month. So you’ll, you’ll know this. You change [00:37:45] practice. You go to a new practice let’s say oh let’s say it’s a big jump like from NHS to [00:37:50] private. Right. And then the same mod whereas before it was whatever udas [00:37:55] now it’s £295 or something on the first one you do and you think, [00:38:00] wow, £295. Maybe you’ll do the reflection thing. Try and make it even a better one and better [00:38:05] one. But after a month, that just feels totally normal.

Sam Cope: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:38:10] it’s that moment of acceleration of wealth are quite exciting. And that’s one [00:38:15] thing about wealth. Yeah. Um, but Robbie would talk about living up to your [00:38:20] potential. And I find that quite an interesting way of thinking [00:38:25] about things because it’s not. It’s not my default. Yeah. But it definitely was his. You know, as [00:38:30] a sportsman, you know, he would say that, and he would look at dentistry as he wants to live up [00:38:35] to his potential in dentistry. You know, the dentist he wants to make in the world. Yeah.

Sam Cope: Yeah. [00:38:40] That’s great. Yeah, I think I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Canal, although you could take that back and say, hey, [00:38:45] where does that come from? Yeah.

Sam Cope: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like, how come you need to make a dent in the world? Like, why can’t you just [00:38:50] have tea and cakes with your kids, you know?

Sam Cope: Yeah. I think [00:38:55] as dentists, I think we are all cursed with the high achiever. I think if we were, you [00:39:00] know, if you want, if you, you know, I mean, I [00:39:05] was speaking to my brother about this. He’s a barrister. And he was saying to me like, you [00:39:10] know, we are quite well educated and we’re very privileged to be where we are [00:39:15] now.

Payman Langroudi: You and him.

Sam Cope: Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Um, but he said, wouldn’t it [00:39:20] be great if, like, you could just be happy and content with, like, just like a two [00:39:25] up, two down, two kids and, you know, just like a job that you go to every day and you’re completely [00:39:30] content. He said, we’re cursed with the fact that we have to achieve, and you have to do [00:39:35] this to get your happiness. Whereas most, you know, most people don’t have that. [00:39:40] Like, you know, when we talk about our, our lives, it doesn’t [00:39:45] we’re not like the, the general public, which sounds crazy, which [00:39:50] sounds like, yeah, crazy, but it is true. Like I do think we are. We are [00:39:55] all really high achievers, but I think that, um. Yeah, [00:40:00] I think so. Kunal Patel, he’s been a fantastic [00:40:05] mentor for me. And he said to me, look, when you start at love teeth, don’t think [00:40:10] about. Don’t be thinking about the money and things. He said just be the best dentist [00:40:15] that you can be and the money will just come from there. And it is true. I mean, I’ve been there for [00:40:20] a year and I’ve been doing the reflection thing and my, my biggest, [00:40:25] um, I get the most joy out of seeing patients that are really happy and my restorations [00:40:30] lasting a long time and them coming back. And then you’re building that rapport with patients [00:40:35] and you find that the the better you are. That way the money just [00:40:40] comes with it. And then you can do more things and improve in different ways. [00:40:45] And that’s where I found my happiness rather than directly in the money. I think if you [00:40:50] look directly at the money, sometimes that can lead to kind of burnout [00:40:55] as well.

Payman Langroudi: It’s it’s not inspirational, is it? It’s not, it’s not, it’s not it’s a massive [00:41:00] error. It’s a massive error. And as you say, the money is a very relative thing anyway, man. And that [00:41:05] that your dad’s thing was very true. It reminded me of what I was saying. My brother’s an NHS. [00:41:10] Uh, well, not an he’s a consultant radiologist, doesn’t like his [00:41:15] job very much. Hates it. And then I said to him, hey, would you be happy in your job if you earned six [00:41:20] times as much? And he said, well, of course I would. Um, but [00:41:25] then I said to him, but your day would be the exact same day. Yeah. And you know that that [00:41:30] guy mopping the rig with your dad?

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: They’re both on that rig. [00:41:35] Yeah, yeah, with water, you know, the rain falling on their heads or your dad’s taking [00:41:40] more than that guy. Yeah, but their day is the same kind of day.

Sam Cope: Yeah, I said, I said, I don’t [00:41:45] know how you did it for as long as you did. I said, it’s like a working Alcatraz out there. [00:41:50] It’s worse than Alcatraz because.

Payman Langroudi: Have you ever been on one?

Sam Cope: I haven’t, thank god. But, [00:41:55] um. But. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Would we be away for six months at a time or something?

Sam Cope: We usually do 2 to 3. [00:42:00] Three weeks on, three weeks off.

Payman Langroudi: Three weeks?

Sam Cope: Yeah. So, yeah, it [00:42:05] was. It seemed intense. It seemed to. He seemed to really like it. Um, but. [00:42:10] So this is my stepdad. So he married my mom probably about ten years ago. But, [00:42:15] yeah, when he finished working on the rig, it was, like, the best day of his life. He he [00:42:20] was really happy to finish because, you know, you’re in the North Sea. It’s freezing cold. [00:42:25] And you were on 12 hour shifts for three weeks. But he said [00:42:30] that some of the guys that worked on the rigs, they’d come off and then they’d just they lived in [00:42:35] Thailand or something, or you could just live wherever you wanted to in the world. So they lived like a king in Thailand. [00:42:40] Even these roustabouts that are on hardly any money.

Payman Langroudi: So interesting.

Sam Cope: Jet [00:42:45] off over there. And also while they’re on the rig, everything’s paid for.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. In general, the pay [00:42:50] is quite good, isn’t it? On it.

Sam Cope: Yeah. Yeah. The pay is decent. Yeah, but I mean, even [00:42:55] I mean, my cousin also did it, and now he works [00:43:00] on wind farms and things in the North Sea. But have you, have you heard about the training [00:43:05] that they have to do for that? So when they when they want to [00:43:10] go on the rig, they have to learn how to get out of a helicopter that’s going [00:43:15] under the water and things. So they’re all strapped in, and then they’re in a swimming pool and they’re in [00:43:20] kind of a kind of setup, and then they’re dunked into the pool. [00:43:25] Yeah, my cousin said he was in the front and he was quite calm. He’s quite, quite, quite a calm [00:43:30] person when it comes to things like that. But he said the person behind him wasn’t calm [00:43:35] at all and he was really flapping around and he was kind of grabbing my cousin down while it was going [00:43:40] underwater. They have divers there to help, but he said that was a really scary thing. And it’s [00:43:45] something like once a helicopter hits the sea, it will sink at a metre a second. [00:43:50]

Payman Langroudi: Or.

Sam Cope: So. Once it goes in. And yeah, I mean in a swimming [00:43:55] pool, it’s probably quite nice.

Payman Langroudi: But there are accidents, right? There are accidents of all sorts in those situations. [00:44:00] Right.

Sam Cope: Oh yeah, 100%. So you’ve got to learn, I mean, whether I think [00:44:05] it’s almost like the security at an airport, it’s probably they do these training things just to kind of give you that [00:44:10] sense of security. But if you’re in rough seas in the North Sea, even if you got out of the plane, [00:44:15] those waves are huge.

Payman Langroudi: So do you remember a time where [00:44:20] something switched in your brain because you’re you’re definitely now like after [00:44:25] excellence and doing the best and all of that. And yet you’re telling me [00:44:30] back in your teens you thought you couldn’t get the grades [00:44:35] for dentistry? Do you think you could have got the grades for dentistry, but you had the sort [00:44:40] of like a problem with confidence? Or [00:44:45] was there or were you a kid who wasn’t, you know, crossing the t’s and dotting the i’s while [00:44:50] in your teens. But then something happened in physiotherapy inspired you to say, [00:44:55] oh God, now I want to be the best, I want to, I want to learn everything. Do you remember an inflection [00:45:00] point or what would you what comes to mind when I say that?

Sam Cope: I think, um, I think when I was at school, [00:45:05] I was never kind of a massive high achiever. I was very average. And then when I got to college, [00:45:10] I did a slightly better. And then when I did want to finish.

Payman Langroudi: College, do you mean A-levels? Yeah.

Sam Cope: Yeah. And [00:45:15] then when I finished my degree, I managed to I managed to get a first [00:45:20] in my degree.

Payman Langroudi: And so in that period it was, it was constantly becoming more [00:45:25] and more into what you were doing.

Sam Cope: And I think it was more I think it was more like the belief [00:45:30] in yourself and the fact that actually I can.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sam Cope: Really do it and all it takes [00:45:35] because I’m not a naturally clever person. But like when I revise when [00:45:40] I was revising for physio or probably I revise more for physio than I did for dentistry, I [00:45:45] won’t lie. Um, but I remember doing like 12, 13 hour days for months. [00:45:50] And it proved to me that if you just really put the time in and put the hard work [00:45:55] in, then yeah, you can kind of do whatever you want.

Payman Langroudi: But what was it that [00:46:00] made you switch from being not that person in college to being that person in [00:46:05] university?

Sam Cope: Uh, probably. I mean, probably just probably [00:46:10] just like adversity. I would of thought, because I had a, I had a few, like, family [00:46:15] problems and things that were going on at the time. And then I just thought, right, I’ve really got.

Payman Langroudi: To the books. [00:46:20]

Sam Cope: Because I just thought because I almost got cut off at one point from, [00:46:25] um, my dad and family. And I just thought, wow, I’m completely on my own [00:46:30] here. If I don’t make this by myself, then I’m buggered. So I just thought, [00:46:35] right, I’ll just get my head in the books and just study my head off. And then my biological dad. That’s [00:46:40] my biological dad. Yeah. Um, so. Yeah, so I think I think sometimes [00:46:45] it does take. I know there’s there’s lots of famous people that say this, but when you do [00:46:50] have adversity, it really does drive you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, there would be no [00:46:55] Beethoven. There would be no Steve Jobs, you know, like all these people [00:47:00] went through massive adversity. Um, it’s interesting because [00:47:05] on one level, we’re talking about being content and peace and that [00:47:10] being the thing that we’re after. But on another level, it’s [00:47:15] the, you know, the pressure of life that’s brought out all this genius. Yeah.

Sam Cope: Yeah, [00:47:20] yeah. I think you’ve I think the end goal like, I’ve, I’ve obviously [00:47:25] had to work like really hard to get to where I am. But my end goal was always to kind of once [00:47:30] I’ve got to a point that I’m happy then to take a step [00:47:35] back and I can do my reflections and just take things a bit easier, more easily, [00:47:40] um, which seems to be working a lot better now, But that’s really that’s really [00:47:45] hard to do because, you know, everybody else is working five days a week. [00:47:50] And then you say to people, oh, I’m just doing three clinical days and it’s like, oh, wow, what’s wrong with you?

Payman Langroudi: No, it’s amazing. [00:47:55] I think it’s amazing. There would be no enlightened if I was doing five days a week as a dentist. Yeah. [00:48:00] No way. Um, but but also, I think it’s [00:48:05] not a rule for everyone, but I think for someone like me that if you want [00:48:10] to do dentistry at a high level, if you want to really take care of every step, [00:48:15] um, including the, you know, the social side, making people feel [00:48:20] amazing, including your staff, your patients, you know, all of that [00:48:25] and pay attention to the steps of the actual dentistry itself, the treatment, planning, all that. If you’re [00:48:30] working at that level, I think four days is the absolute maximum that you [00:48:35] can do that at a high level. Mhm. Once you take it to five days I think you then you [00:48:40] start. Okay I wouldn’t even say taking shortcuts, but it would be like I [00:48:45] would temporise something or I wouldn’t be at the top of my game mentally at the top of my [00:48:50] game, if I was treatment planning or, you know, talking to patients, then just something would slip. [00:48:55] And I think three days is absolutely perfect. Absolutely perfect. Whether [00:49:00] the other two days you’re going to do what you’re doing reflection, education, promotion [00:49:05] or something else altogether, you know.

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Property, [00:49:10] whatever. Whatever. You read a book by the river, you know, whatever, whatever it is for you. But [00:49:15] we’re lucky in that a lot of us on three days can earn enough [00:49:20] to support the life we want. It’s not the case in many jobs, right?

Sam Cope: It’s an incredible [00:49:25] opportunity. Like, I don’t really know any. And also how flexible [00:49:30] we can be as well. With our job. You can choose what days you want to do with which practice, which is so [00:49:35] rare in almost all professions. Isn’t it really? Yeah. Um. [00:49:40] Yeah. So important, I think, to like, I, I love, um, [00:49:45] I love, like, dentistry, but I love doing things outside of dentistry, so I’m a bit of [00:49:50] an adrenaline junkie. So I love kind of going skiing and doing [00:49:55] tricks and things, which is great. But then, um, I [00:50:00] wanted to speak a little bit about this because I was part of the, um, the skydiving [00:50:05] team in Liverpool, too. So I just look, when I got to, because I was, [00:50:10] I was quite I was so fortunate to be able to do another degree. I then thought, [00:50:15] right, what can I do that’s really out there? So it was £180 and [00:50:20] they taught you how to skydive on your own and then you got two jumps. So [00:50:25] everybody kind of got taught and then everybody kind of boozed the night before, [00:50:30] which they said, don’t drink anything. So I’m like, okay. And then you stayed in like a big bunker. [00:50:35] And then it was quite funny because the people that were really cocky on the [00:50:40] on the day and on the training.

Payman Langroudi: On the ground.

Sam Cope: When we were on this like tin can of a plane and [00:50:45] it was all ricocheting around everywhere, it felt like D-Day. And [00:50:50] they were really scared and didn’t say anything. You could just see one of them just completely [00:50:55] white. And then, um, and then. Yeah, and then jumping out of the plane. [00:51:00] And it was in the Lake District so you could see.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful.

Sam Cope: Yeah. So beautiful. All the mountains. [00:51:05] And you flew it down yourself. So I’d say for anyone, like if anybody’s listening to this, that’s like at university, [00:51:10] just take up all the opportunities that you possibly can.

Payman Langroudi: Did you just do those two [00:51:15] jumps or did you? No, I did loads and loads.

Sam Cope: Yeah, I did loads. Yeah. I almost like I [00:51:20] wanted to try and get my license, but it’s so hard in the UK because the weather’s not great. So [00:51:25] if the weather’s over, if sorry, if the wind is over 20 miles an hour, then [00:51:30] it’s difficult to land because the parachute goes is 20 miles an hour, then the training [00:51:35] parachutes. So you just end up.

Payman Langroudi: So did you free fall as well or not? [00:51:40]

Sam Cope: Yeah, we did. From free fall. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What’s that feeling like? Because I’ve been on those ones. Where? On [00:51:45] the ground. The fan thing. Oh, yeah. That feels good. But you’re not falling anywhere, right?

Sam Cope: It’s cool. Yeah. [00:51:50] And then. Yeah, you have to. So when you go through it, you. You jump out on a static line to start [00:51:55] off with about 3000, 3500ft. And then you’ll move on to [00:52:00] kind of dummy pulls where you’re like pretend to pull.

Payman Langroudi: Aha.

Sam Cope: And then you show the tutor [00:52:05] that you can do it. And then eventually you take you higher, and then you do a bit of freefall and then you go further [00:52:10] and further that way. I had a friend and I got there a little bit later [00:52:15] that day, and I spoke to another one of my friends who was on the ground, [00:52:20] and they said, oh, it’s the first plane gone up. And he said, yeah, the first plane has gone up and Ben is on the plane. [00:52:25] I was like, oh, okay, cool. And then I saw people, like jumping out on the static lines. [00:52:30] And when you’re when you when the [00:52:35] parachute opens, you have to wait. You do. You do this thing and it’s like [00:52:40] you go 1000, 2000, 3000. And then you say it again, and then [00:52:45] you look at your canopy and you make sure that it’s square and that everything looks okay. But [00:52:50] I saw somebody kind of as soon as they came out the plane, you could see they were [00:52:55] kind of flapping around a bit, and he pulled his, his cord. So [00:53:00] it meant that, um, so he kind of cut away from it. And then I saw him kind [00:53:05] of like flipping in the air. And then just at the last minute, he managed to pull his [00:53:10] reserve, and then just about kind of crash landed into the field. [00:53:15] So we all went to kind of get him. Anyway, he was grounded for six months after that. But it’s [00:53:20] just.

Payman Langroudi: He was injured.

Sam Cope: No, he was fine.

Payman Langroudi: So why was he grounded?

Sam Cope: He [00:53:25] was grounded.

Payman Langroudi: In traumatic stress.

Sam Cope: Um, so the tutors will just say, look, you can’t [00:53:30] parachute now for the next six months just to kind of get your head straight. It’s almost like after a poker [00:53:35] game when you lose and they say, right, you need to like have like five days out now. Yeah. But [00:53:40] yeah, the same way. But yeah. Did you just.

Payman Langroudi: Carry on jumping out of planes when you saw that, [00:53:45] did that not scare you to not do it anymore or.

Sam Cope: Um, no, [00:53:50] it didn’t, because I just thought it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Not gonna happen to me.

Sam Cope: Yeah. Well, I the [00:53:55] thing is, is that the guys that teach you, they are ex-military, so they kind of teach [00:54:00] you a really regimented profile of what to do. And they’re showing you pictures of what the canopies look like. [00:54:05] And every time you go up, they’ll say, like, Sam, what would you do with this? Sam, what would you do with this? And I’d be like, yeah, cut away. [00:54:10] No, I’d keep that one or I’d wiggle it around or something. So [00:54:15] it was a good it’s a good thing to do as well because you learn like [00:54:20] what’s important to you and like how to manage stress. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, you know what I’m [00:54:25] interested in? Yeah. Like, as an adrenaline junkie, like, do you like motorbikes and [00:54:30] jet skis and, like, everything. That’s adrenaline.

Sam Cope: Yeah. Jet skis. I think my [00:54:35] mum would kill me if I got motorbikes and things, so. I love jet skis, but.

Payman Langroudi: As a [00:54:40] as a adrenaline junkie, it’s. I don’t know whether this is true or not. Yeah. Like, [00:54:45] is it that there was a lot of adrenaline in the system because of whatever reason [00:54:50] as a child? Yeah. And so you’re comfortable with adrenaline with the next man [00:54:55] didn’t have. Yeah. Just let me let me just set an example here. As a child, [00:55:00] there’s a drunk father who’s screaming and shouting, and the kid doesn’t know [00:55:05] how to handle it. Adrenaline. Adrenaline and adrenaline. Now, as an adult, he’s an adrenaline junkie. Is there [00:55:10] such a thing as such a link? Yeah. Number one. And number two. I find, you know the rate [00:55:15] of stuff here. So the rate of stuff changing for me [00:55:20] in a walk just isn’t quick enough. Yeah. I just just [00:55:25] does my head in. It doesn’t. The rhythm of a walk really, really annoys me a lot. Although [00:55:30] on a travelator thing, you know, in the airport that rate. [00:55:35] Yeah. I adore that, like, I could do that all day. I’m still walking, right? I’m still [00:55:40] walking. But stuff’s changing at a different rate. Yeah. And on a bicycle, [00:55:45] I could cycle all day as well. You know, stuff’s changing, but on a walk, it’s changing too slowly for [00:55:50] me. And I wonder whether that’s a similar thing to this adrenaline.

Sam Cope: Yeah. [00:55:55] Yeah. Possibly. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think when I was younger, I mean, my [00:56:00] I remember my friend’s mums didn’t really like me coming round because I’d climb [00:56:05] to like the, I’d climb the tree to the highest branch and they’d be like, oh, where’s Sam? It’s like, oh, he’s [00:56:10] up there. Yeah. And like, yeah. So I think it’s almost like [00:56:15] probably a little bit of nurture. But I reckon nature like I think [00:56:20] I think, yeah, almost just like you.

Payman Langroudi: Haven’t got kids have you.

Sam Cope: No, not at the moment. [00:56:25] No, no.

Payman Langroudi: With kids you’re on the first day the kid’s born. You see, you notice massive difference when you have two. When [00:56:30] you have a second one, the first day you notice, oh my god, totally different child. Like yeah. It’s [00:56:35] like they’ve only been around for one day right? So the nurture hasn’t had much time unless [00:56:40] of course, I don’t know in the tummy maybe.

Sam Cope: Yeah. I suppose just like the different genes that they’ve got. I [00:56:45] mean, me and me and my brother were completely different. Right. But we’re it’s quite nice [00:56:50] because me and my brother were we’re best friends, but we do completely different jobs, [00:56:55] like, I’m. I’m a dentist. He’s a barrister. So what.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of barrister.

Sam Cope: Is he? He does crime and civil. So [00:57:00] I went to see him on one of his cases. Actually. It was really good. It felt like I was on like a drama documentary [00:57:05] or something.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sam Cope: Have you ever seen a court?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Sam Cope: It’s very cool. [00:57:10] I definitely I mean, you can just go in to watch any kind of, um, case [00:57:15] that’s on. It was quite good with him because I’d be in a coffee shop working and he’d say, oh, Sam, like, [00:57:20] get here. This is, this is going to be the good bit. So then I’d get there and then they’d do the, um, [00:57:25] they do the things.

Payman Langroudi: I went to one. My friend had an issue and we [00:57:30] went. The lawyer said, which barrister do you want? Do you want, you know, like a standard one? Or should we get a super duper [00:57:35] one? And we said, all right, how much is it? Whatever. And then we went, we said, let’s get the super duper one. Let’s let’s see what happens. [00:57:40] And we went in. And who’s that person in a court, you know, who’s like, she’s not on either [00:57:45] side. She’s not one of the judges, just the person running everything.

Sam Cope: But the usher.

Payman Langroudi: The usher, someone [00:57:50] like that. She was basically running everything. Yeah, she was one talking more than anyone else. And she was kind of in charge. [00:57:55] Right? And I remember the couple of cases happened before my buddy had to go up and [00:58:00] I could see. Who the hell is this person? Like, she’s in charge here, right? Because she wasn’t a judge. She [00:58:05] wasn’t a lawyer. She was just a person running the show here. Anyway, the barrister steps in [00:58:10] the super duper one and immediately says something to her in legalese, right. That I [00:58:15] didn’t understand what he said, but she turned from, like, running the show to looking [00:58:20] through her notes and like, being cowering down a little bit. Yeah. And I just in that first [00:58:25] sentence, I realised, oh, like the expensive barista knows these tricks, [00:58:30] right?

Sam Cope: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting that they have a they always have a conference [00:58:35] between the judge and the two barristers before. So like before a crime, um, before [00:58:40] something to do with to do with like a criminal case. They’ll say the judge will say, [00:58:45] what do you think? And the barristers will just be like, yeah, he’s definitely done it.

Payman Langroudi: No [00:58:50] way.

Sam Cope: And then sometimes the judge will just say, look, just say, I mean, you know, the prisons are like overrun at [00:58:55] the moment. So sometimes the case that I was told the judge had just said, look, [00:59:00] just, just say to them like, he’s definitely he’ll definitely end up going to prison. This guy, if he’s found guilty [00:59:05] and he’s clearly guilty, but just say he can have a six month suspended sentence and [00:59:10] a fine. So they went back to him and then he they said, oh, I’m really sorry. [00:59:15] But he said he wants to go through with the trial. And the judge was like, what? Because he was [00:59:20] almost definitely guilty. Yeah. But I tell you what, the amount of money that is [00:59:25] wasted on these trials and things is just.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a funny thing, though, because if you admit [00:59:30] it, you get a shorter sentence. But if, let’s say you actually didn’t do it. Yeah. And [00:59:35] there you risk a much longer sentence. Yeah. It’s mad. It’s a mad thing when you [00:59:40] think about it. But what really confused me about the law is how important the lawyer [00:59:45] is. Like, so, like, I always had this sort of idea that the law, you know, the [00:59:50] truth, will out in a legal situation. But the lawyer is the key thing. Yeah. [00:59:55]

Sam Cope: It’s whoever can run the theatre the best, isn’t it? It’s like [01:00:00] whoever can act the best. Yeah. Um, and whoever’s, like, more convincing, too. [01:00:05] So. Yeah. So this trial that ended up going on ended up being [01:00:10] a hung jury. So then they’re having to do the trial again in, like, eight months time. [01:00:15] My brother was like, yeah, I think I’ll get him on the next one because because there’s no way he can keep his story [01:00:20] straight, because he’s clearly lying. But I think it only takes like 1 or 2 people in the jury [01:00:25] just to be adamant that they think that he’s right. And then. Yeah, and then it’s hung and then crazy. [01:00:30]

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about after you [01:00:35] did monarch’s course, you decided you want to be that kind of dentist. [01:00:40] Did you change job then to go find that kind of job that [01:00:45] you.

Sam Cope: So when I, um, when I finished that course, um, [01:00:50] I was working, still working at the dental house, and I was doing some, [01:00:55] uh, I was doing NHS work, and then I was kind of increasing the amount of private work that I was [01:01:00] doing. Just naturally. Just because you’re selling gets better. Yeah. [01:01:05] And then while almost towards the end of the year long course, [01:01:10] um, I was very, very, um, privileged to be asked by monarch [01:01:15] to be his apprentice. Yeah. So then I, um, finished my job [01:01:20] at the Dental house, and then I worked as his apprentice for um for quite a while. [01:01:25] And that was that was amazing. That kind of made me the dentist [01:01:30] that I am today. And it was quite it was quite humbling because I was able and I was [01:01:35] so I was so lucky. And I’m so grateful for that experience because I was able [01:01:40] to see, firstly, a very charismatic person and a [01:01:45] very experienced dentist teach. And I got to be able to see his work, but [01:01:50] also seeing lots of different dentists, like lots and lots of [01:01:55] cohorts of people. Yeah. Um, and how, what their skills like. And you [01:02:00] do realise when you’re on those courses because I always thought to myself like, oh, I don’t think I’m [01:02:05] that good a dentist. I don’t think I’m cutting the crowns as like perfect as everybody else. But [01:02:10] you realise like, you know, even the really experienced dentists can’t cut crowns [01:02:15] really, really well and can’t do, like, really good dentistry [01:02:20] all the time. So it was very good to see, and it was really nice [01:02:25] to be able to help people and you could see their progression and things. And I think, um, [01:02:30] yeah, that was a fantastic experience. And also when the [01:02:35] lectures were going on, we’d be messing around with composite and practising and doing composite [01:02:40] veneers and fillings and things like that.

Payman Langroudi: So I think, I think repetition is such a massive thing.

Sam Cope: Huge. [01:02:45]

Payman Langroudi: Such a massive, you know, I saw mini smile makeover. I’m still learning, you know. Still I must have [01:02:50] watched it 80, 90 times, right. Still still learning.

Sam Cope: Yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And repetition [01:02:55] people just underestimate the value of repetition. And you know, you saw his content however [01:03:00] many times. But you’re also right explaining teaching is one of the best ways of learning, isn’t [01:03:05] it?

Sam Cope: 100%.

Payman Langroudi: You have to understand it yourself very well, and you learn from the questions [01:03:10] that people, people ask. So then you were doing more of this work then what happened [01:03:15] next?

Sam Cope: Um, so then I kind of wanted to create [01:03:20] my own brand and I was going to move back to Liverpool. So then I [01:03:25] left the practice with monarch, and then I went to Liverpool and [01:03:30] I wanted to get a private job, but I ended up working kind of almost five [01:03:35] days in five different practices, which I definitely wouldn’t recommend to anyone, [01:03:40] but it was very it was an incredible experience because I was working at Roderick’s, [01:03:45] my dentist, um, and then a couple of other private [01:03:50] practices as well. And that was that was amazing because I was able. [01:03:55]

Payman Langroudi: To see.

Sam Cope: Like, yeah, how loads of different practices run, what works, [01:04:00] what doesn’t work, and the importance, like the importance of having a nurse [01:04:05] like I was, I had like two suitcases of all my stuff, like with, [01:04:10] um, computers and equipment and composite and everything, because I wanted to still try and keep [01:04:15] Consistent, so I spent a lot of money on my own things to be able to deliver [01:04:20] kind of the quality of dentistry that I wanted to give and I wasn’t happy with, like using [01:04:25] different materials and different places. So, so yeah, so I used to [01:04:30] so I did that for a while. And then I also whilst I was at one of the practices, there were a couple of [01:04:35] dentists that were relatively newly qualified. So I thought, well that’d be a good opportunity [01:04:40] to kind of help them. Yeah. So I on like Wednesday nights or something, I just [01:04:45] I had a couple of phantom heads. So like showed them how to do different composites and like help [01:04:50] them improve their kind of skills and things. And that was that was really rewarding.

Payman Langroudi: Two [01:04:55] things. What were lessons you learned from those five practices or from all the ones you worked [01:05:00] because you’ve worked in quite a few now? Yeah, good and bad. What would you say? [01:05:05] Like, are you are you thinking of starting your own practice one day? Maybe.

Sam Cope: Uh, I, [01:05:10] I’ve seen how all these practices run, and I think that I’m quite happy [01:05:15] being being an associate for now.

Payman Langroudi: For now. For now, don’t rule it out from [01:05:20] the associate perspective. Then what things have you seen that have been like? What do you think [01:05:25] best practice that you know you’ve learned from the corporate setting? I mean, you can learn a lot from my dentist. [01:05:30] You know, I’m involved with them. It’s an impressive company, man. It’s an impressive [01:05:35] company to be able to pull off what they’ve pulled off across 600 sites. 600? [01:05:40]

Sam Cope: Yeah. Crazy.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like, you’ve got four practices and nightmare is [01:05:45] 600. Yeah.

Sam Cope: Yeah. Unbelievable. I mean, yeah I thought yeah, they’ve [01:05:50] they’ve all got good points and they’ve all got some bad points as well.

Payman Langroudi: A few, a few [01:05:55] gems that you can come up with.

Sam Cope: Um I think as a practice, [01:06:00] I think the most important thing is kind of your, your team. [01:06:05] So I think like being in a practice where you’ve got other people that are there that [01:06:10] you can kind of learn and bounce ideas off is really important. Um, I think [01:06:15] having a practice manager as well, that’s really kind and nice and wants [01:06:20] every everything to work works really well. It’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Tough role. It’s a tough role. Practice [01:06:25] manager is a tough role.

Sam Cope: And also, um, what I’ve learned is you [01:06:30] want to try and stay friendly with every member of the team, and you want to be [01:06:35] humble with everybody, and you should never. I think most, [01:06:40] most important person to treat as nicely as you possibly can and with respect, is [01:06:45] your nurse there on not very much money and they’re helping you out all the time. And [01:06:50] the more you can help them, the more they’ll help you.

Payman Langroudi: Not to mention, not to mention I really [01:06:55] think this. I mean, I think respecting your nurse is a massive. Respecting the person you’re spending the whole day with [01:07:00] is an important thing by itself. Oh, yeah. An aim in itself. But [01:07:05] respecting your nurse in public. So respecting your nurse in front of your patient [01:07:10] Mhm. Wins you massive points with your patient 100%. People don’t realise that [01:07:15] nuance. You know it’s a nuance. But some, some people don’t realise that nuance. [01:07:20] And letting your nurse take a bit more responsibility than she might normally. Deciding [01:07:25] making certain decisions, whatever those decisions are, makes them feel great. [01:07:30] But so in the I can’t imagine any of the ones you’ve worked with, the vibe is more [01:07:35] friendly than Love Teeth. Is it because Love Teeth is a real good vibe [01:07:40] in there? I don’t know. I’ve done work there.

Sam Cope: Yeah, I found that working at all of the practices [01:07:45] working at Love Teeth is just such a breath of fresh air, because [01:07:50] really, everything just runs like a really well-oiled machine. [01:07:55] Like when I was at different practices, you know, I’d have some nurses that were great, [01:08:00] some nurses that needed a lot of input and like, a lot of help. The nurses [01:08:05] that love teeth are unbelievable. They, you know, they’re scanning for me [01:08:10] the really attentive and they and they almost want to learn about how you’re doing stuff [01:08:15] and love that I, you know, after a couple of months with the nurse, my nurses, [01:08:20] she’s called Shea and she’s fantastic. You know, I, [01:08:25] I help her out. And I found this really works as a good kind of hack. So in [01:08:30] the morning, my commute on the train, I will look through all of my patients [01:08:35] so I know what I’m doing. And I’ll leave a little note to say what we’re doing with the nurse, just [01:08:40] so that she can prepare everything so that it’s not stressful. And I’ll say like, you know, this could be a [01:08:45] root canal, or it could be an extraction to get things out for both. And then I do like a [01:08:50] little handover in.

Payman Langroudi: The morning on the.

Sam Cope: So I have Dental. So I just place it on [01:08:55] the. Yeah I just place it on the software. Yeah. I think that’s a real game changer. And it really helps [01:09:00] to kind of rapport with the nurse and when things are running really smoothly because you’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Helped her out stressed. That’s what you’re saying right? [01:09:05]

Sam Cope: Yeah. And you’re not stressing because you know everything that’s going on in the day. The nurse knows what’s going on [01:09:10] in the day. So it means that when you do have a bit of time, you can have a bit of chit chat and a laugh and, you know, you can ask them [01:09:15] about their day. It’s like, even for Christmas, I know she had, um, three children, [01:09:20] so I got all I’ve never met them, but I got them. She was telling me a bit about them and what [01:09:25] they like throughout the year. So it was. I bought them all gifts and things [01:09:30] and it’s so important. It’s just the little things that that can really help. And I think when [01:09:35] you’re at these practices learning everybody’s name, learning, you know, it’s like the Dale Carnegie thing. [01:09:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Learn a little bit about them. And then, you know, that helps you build rapport. The other thing [01:09:45] is when I was doing my foundation training, um, I [01:09:50] had a really good mentor, actually, Jane Willett in Glenside practice, um, in [01:09:55] the Wirral. And she had me working as a nurse [01:10:00] for a bit, and she had me working as the receptionist. The receptionist was by far the hardest job because [01:10:05] even though you’re a dentist, Patients will see you as a receptionist and treat you terribly and [01:10:10] you realise that, yeah, like they’re really like quite they can be really [01:10:15] quite cruel to you. And sometimes it’s just because I don’t know if you’ve read The Chimp Paradox, but [01:10:20] it’s like they’re almost like expressing their chimp.

Payman Langroudi: Their inner chimp.

Sam Cope: Exactly. [01:10:25] And then they’re going into the surgery and then they’re lovely to the dentist. And it’s like, because you’ve taken it [01:10:30] all. So I think understanding that the receptionists are going through that and then really helping [01:10:35] them as well and making sure that they’re okay, or at lunchtime just going to buy them some chocolates [01:10:40] or, um, making, you know, and checking in on them every so often as well really helps. But [01:10:45] being at Love Teeth has been amazing because the receptionists that I’ve got at Sutton are [01:10:50] so lovely that I’ve got my own treatment coordinator, so that makes everything so [01:10:55] much easier as well. So I don’t have to think because.

Payman Langroudi: The treatment coordinator will sort of sell the treatment [01:11:00] plan. Is that is that what she does?

Sam Cope: So I will say with my most of [01:11:05] my patient consults. They will come in. I will tell them about all the treatments that, um, [01:11:10] that are available for them, specific to them. And then I’ll go through the price and then [01:11:15] they’ll see the treatment coordinator who will go through their treatment plan, the finance, [01:11:20] the, um, and the things that, you know, things that push [01:11:25] it over the line. Yeah. And then also follows the patients up, and then we’ll let me know if they’ve gone [01:11:30] ahead with X, Y and Z. And then they’ll also kind of check in on the patients and make sure they’re [01:11:35] okay. They’re worth their weight in gold. Really. So good.

Payman Langroudi: And patients are coming [01:11:40] in I guess some are coming in from word of mouth now because you’ve been there a little [01:11:45] while, but otherwise coming in from marketing is that.

Sam Cope: Yeah. I mean, Canal [01:11:50] invests so much money into his marketing. Um, so a lot of patients come through [01:11:55] that just through the reputation of love teeth and then [01:12:00] also a bit through my Instagram. I made [01:12:05] my own smile book too. So I have that in reception, which shows you [01:12:10] all the kind of before and afters. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? That’s different.

Sam Cope: Yeah, it’s really good, actually. [01:12:15] It’s quite fun to make. It just makes you just make it through photo box or something. But it shows them all the before [01:12:20] and after. So when people are coming in for their hygiene appointments, they’ll look at the book and they’ll be like, oh, actually, yeah, I’d like [01:12:25] to book in for a consultation with Sam.

Payman Langroudi: In a way, it’s kind of like retro Step. Yeah. [01:12:30] It works. You know, it’s an actual book with your picture, I guess, of your face on [01:12:35] the front cover or something. Not quite.

Sam Cope: But. Yeah, I just have some [01:12:40] teeth and then I’ll have, like, information about me and then before and afters and different smile makeovers [01:12:45] that we’ve done and things. And it just works. It works really well.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, obviously, [01:12:50] you know, be nice to people, do great dentistry obviously that [01:12:55] that helps, you know, improve your reputation and all that. Are there any tactics, though, [01:13:00] that you’ve learned along the way in order to get people to [01:13:05] refer family and friends to you, or post on the internet for you [01:13:10] or whatever.

Sam Cope: Yeah, I mean, I think a good, a good thing is [01:13:15] once you finished kind of a smile makeover or something for someone and and if they’re [01:13:20] happy, um, then it’s asking them to. [01:13:25] I usually get a photo with them, and then I usually say, it would be great if you could post it on your [01:13:30] social media. Yeah. And then they can do that.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t strike me. You strike me as the [01:13:35] kind of kid who who hates saying that to someone, and yet you’re saying it and they’re doing it [01:13:40] because I see all the ones with the enlightened bags. Yeah, yeah. You’re doing it a lot. Yeah. People are [01:13:45] posting, your patients are posting on your behalf, and you’re posting on your patients behalf a [01:13:50] lot. Do you how do you get how did you get over the sort of the bump of asking that [01:13:55] question in the first place? Because a lot of people find difficulty asking that question?

Sam Cope: Well, with I mean, [01:14:00] Canal has been a great mentor. And he just said to me, look, I’m going to be marketing [01:14:05] you and I’ve got your back. But he said that if you’re doing this as well, you [01:14:10] know, it really, really helps. And the first couple of times, yeah, I’m not going to lie, it’s awkward. But [01:14:15] patients like it. You usually say to patients, you know, oh, it’d be lovely to get a picture with you [01:14:20] for social media. And they’re like, oh yeah, actually, yeah, that’s great. And I mean, I [01:14:25] kind of slacked a bit over Christmas in terms of posting. And then I had a patient [01:14:30] come in and they were saying, oh, you didn’t post my picture with me. And I was like, don’t worry, [01:14:35] I’m I’m getting around to it.

Payman Langroudi: I think he said something about he’s very good at this. Yeah. And he said [01:14:40] something about, uh, getting through to the, the patients feel [01:14:45] like if you tell them, is it okay if I put a picture of this on, on Insta, the patient feels like he [01:14:50] must have done a great job because he’s proud of his work. He wants to put it out there. Yeah, yeah. And so [01:14:55] that makes patients feel good. And then. And then exactly what you said, he said a friend of a patient said, why [01:15:00] didn’t you post mine? Weren’t you happy with the way mine came out? Yeah, yeah. And then that sort of [01:15:05] tweaked something in his head that made him then ask everyone, you know, it’s an interesting.

Sam Cope: Yeah, [01:15:10] I think it’s asking. Asking everyone and then posting their pictures and stuff. I think it’s really good [01:15:15] and it really does. Yeah. And then you find that they [01:15:20] come back and you’ve built like a really good rapport with them, and then you find that they’ll [01:15:25] say to you, oh, I’ve got a family friend or something like that, that, that [01:15:30] would really like it. And then I think at that point you should say, oh, well, great, [01:15:35] well give me the Instagram and I’ll give them a message or give me their number and I’ll [01:15:40] give them a text or something. Um, yeah, I think, I think in this [01:15:45] kind of day and age, it’s really nice to have like a personal connection with [01:15:50] your patients because they’ll respect you. But also, um, a patient [01:15:55] people don’t sue people that they like. So even if like, you know, sometimes [01:16:00] things can, can go wrong. It’s just the nature of the world, isn’t it? But [01:16:05] if you’ve got a really good relationship with your patient, then you know you can overcome it and then [01:16:10] you can you can help them. But I think just being kind of a genuine person. [01:16:15] So say like, you know, a patient comes back two months later, the, you know, it’s guaranteed for a [01:16:20] month or something, say the composite, just for example. And they say, look, I [01:16:25] was using my retainer and then I took it out and it chipped or something, you know, is there anything you can do? I [01:16:30] think, you know, just being kind to them and just saying like, yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, I’m happy to fix it [01:16:35] and say, you know what, I’ll fix it for free. But it’d be lovely if you gave us a Google review about it.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? [01:16:40]

Sam Cope: And then, you know, and then you’ve, you’ve then built rapport.

Payman Langroudi: So many moments [01:16:45] like that as a dentist, so many little moments of of highs with patients that [01:16:50] if you then do mention this sort of thing, it does make sense. But the other thing I was thinking was It’s [01:16:55] kind of much more high risk treating patients [01:17:00] from marketing than it is treating existing patients of a practice. [01:17:05] In theory, because someone comes in from a non-profit, does all sorts [01:17:10] of campaigns for for Kunal, but someone comes in from a Google campaign, let’s say, yeah, [01:17:15] you’ve never met this person. They come in and then I know how slick that practice is. [01:17:20] They kind of walk out with a treatment plan. First visit. Yeah. [01:17:25] Then you’ve got to execute that plan. Having met this person once or twice. [01:17:30] Right. And then it’s normally, you know, it could be a big plan. And so [01:17:35] that you guys have to accelerate rapport so [01:17:40] that these situations don’t go wrong because something’s going to go [01:17:45] wrong during treatment. You know, like you just said, you never we’re never 100% happy with our work. [01:17:50] There’s always gonna be something that could have been done a bit better. And, you know, someone can [01:17:55] pick up on that thing. Now, if you have if you’ve known the patient for years, this is never going to happen. But if you’ve just [01:18:00] met the person, you need to accelerate rapport. So I would in your situation, have you heard of the people who contact [01:18:05] the patient before they come in?

Sam Cope: Do I speak to them? Do you mean or. [01:18:10]

Payman Langroudi: Um, it’s an interesting thing.

Sam Cope: Yeah, yeah. I mean, maybe.

Payman Langroudi: A DM or a call [01:18:15] to.

Sam Cope: See what they like.

Payman Langroudi: No, no. As in to build rapport from the beginning. Yeah. You’re [01:18:20] coming on Tuesday. I’m just calling to see if you had any questions before you come in. It’s a really interesting [01:18:25] thing.

Sam Cope: Yeah, that is a good way of doing it, I find, because a lot of people that come in for [01:18:30] these big treatment plans, they’ll usually need some sort of early work. [01:18:35] Early work done before.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s when you build it.

Sam Cope: And also through the whitening as well.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [01:18:40]

Sam Cope: I find that say if somebody wants composite veneers they’ve already got straight teeth or something. [01:18:45] I get them in. I do do the whitening and then I do the trial smile usually [01:18:50] before. And that’s for composite or. Porcelain? Yeah. Um, and then [01:18:55] it’s at that stage as well that you can gauge kind of what patient they are and whether you can meet their [01:19:00] expectations. And sometimes it’s it’s always a hard conversation to have. But I’ve had it a [01:19:05] couple of times where I’ve said, look, I mean, this is the kind of work that I do, you know, [01:19:10] and I’ll show them pictures before and afters, and then I’ll show them kind of what they want. And if they [01:19:15] sound like their goals are just or their expectations are far [01:19:20] too high, you know, I’ll kind of bring them back down to earth. But if they’re not kind of playing ball, [01:19:25] your.

Payman Langroudi: Spidey sense says no.

Sam Cope: Yeah. Then I’ll say to them, look, I just don’t. I’ll [01:19:30] just say to them, look, I’m a bit worried that I’m not going to be able to meet your expectations, [01:19:35] and maybe it’s best seeking another dentist that perhaps can. [01:19:40] And I think a lot of patients do actually respect that. I mean, and also I’d much rather [01:19:45] do that than have the problems of then that can come in the future. [01:19:50]

Payman Langroudi: Talking of problems, let’s get let’s get to the darker part of [01:19:55] the pod. We like to talk about clinical errors. I [01:20:00] don’t want to just limit it to clinical errors. I kind of like these sort of errors as well. Yeah. Like expectation [01:20:05] errors management errors. Mhm. But so that [01:20:10] you know we can all learn from each others. What comes to mind when I say clinical [01:20:15] errors.

Sam Cope: So when I finished, when I finished monarchs courses [01:20:20] and was finished as an apprentice and things you do have a lot of confidence and obviously [01:20:25] you’re highly skilled like you know how to use.

Payman Langroudi: Companies and you’ve got the same pay check [01:20:30] whatever you did. Is that what The Apprentice means?

Sam Cope: Yeah, you’re you’re you’re salaried and [01:20:35] the job role is really to shadow monarch as he’s doing his dentistry. [01:20:40] You’ll be working in his clinic and doing some of the, um, some of the work there, too. [01:20:45] And then you’ll also be Helping other [01:20:50] students on all of the courses, which run like nearly five days a week. So [01:20:55] it’s it’s intense. It’s a great I mean, it’s an unbelievable opportunity. But [01:21:00] once I’d finished. Once I’d finished that, I felt like my skills had hugely [01:21:05] accelerated, just in terms of like placement of composite, how it works, and [01:21:10] also when you’re teaching on a totally composite course, which you’ll know from the mini Smile makeover [01:21:15] course, um, you know, you’d finish a day and you fixed [01:21:20] like 50 or 60 mistakes, so it’s almost like you’ve done 50 or 60 cases.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. [01:21:25]

Sam Cope: Yeah. So and you’re doing that nearly every day. So you’re just constantly fixing things for [01:21:30] people. And then when, when these things happen in clinic then you’re like, oh okay, I’ll fix it [01:21:35] this way. So you do come out very confident. Yeah. What you don’t get taught on a lot of courses [01:21:40] is when somebody already has composite veneers, and then you’re kind of, um, [01:21:45] treating them So my kind of clinical, [01:21:50] um, the time that I wouldn’t really call it a failure, [01:21:55] but it’s more where the, the moment where I’ve changed my practice the [01:22:00] most was when I had a patient. They came in with composite veneers [01:22:05] already. They were looking they think they’d been done a couple of years before, but they were looking pretty. [01:22:10] Um.

Payman Langroudi: It’s unforgiving. It’s an unforgiving material.

Sam Cope: It is the most [01:22:15] unforgiving material. You leave one air void or something, one tiny air void, and you’ll [01:22:20] see it a year later. Stained to hell. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Brown.

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Sam Cope: Yeah. [01:22:25] It looks horrible. Um, so, anyway, wanted them refreshed. So [01:22:30] the, um, the process that I would do at the time is take took [01:22:35] off the composite, placed the composite back on, and then they have a week in the composite to kind [01:22:40] of like figure out whether they liked it, whether they didn’t like it. And after a week [01:22:45] really happy. Like felt great. Added a little bit of composite to [01:22:50] a couple of areas, polished, did the final polish and then had [01:22:55] a six month follow up. Was really happy. Left a really good google review. Didn’t hear anything then for [01:23:00] about another six months or something. And then after that six months, [01:23:05] um, I’d heard and I was leaving the practice as well. [01:23:10] I’d heard that they’d gone to a few other dentists, [01:23:15] and they’d always wanted their teeth longer, and I had made them [01:23:20] long enough or something. And I was thinking to myself, well, I’ve done everything as I was supposed to do. [01:23:25] They’ve had the they’ve almost had their kind of trial smile where they’ve seen what the composite [01:23:30] is going to look like and things. So you know what can possibly be wrong anyway, there wasn’t really [01:23:35] too much reasoning with the patient, so I ended up giving them the money back [01:23:40] for the 40th that they wanted longer.

Sam Cope: So then I kind of reflected on the [01:23:45] whole situation and thought, how can I prevent that from happening again? And [01:23:50] the way that I prevent it now is all of my composite veneers [01:23:55] that I do. Any big cases of composite veneers, say four, six, eight. I do, [01:24:00] um, I injection mould, and the reason why I do it that way is because I can. [01:24:05] I know that I can do it predictably, and it means that the patient gets a trial [01:24:10] smile. They can see exactly what it’s going to look like. They take photos. You can even have [01:24:15] them in the trial. Smile for a bit for a week or something so they can see what it’s like. And then once they’ve [01:24:20] approved it, then we’ll place the composite. Then we’ll do a final review. So it adds almost an extra layer. [01:24:25] And it means then that you get the adequate thickness, some [01:24:30] improved strength compared to kind of placing the composite on using wetting resin. You’ve just [01:24:35] got everything on in one go. And then yeah, I found my [01:24:40] um, my cases have of massively improved. And I found that [01:24:45] every you know, most people are really happy with what they’ve got and say before [01:24:50] with my edge bonding, I’ll usually do that freehand, but I will always do a mock up [01:24:55] to show them what it’ll look like before even even edge bonding, and then to see [01:25:00] whether they’re happy with it.

Sam Cope: And then if they are happy, then great. I know I can do probably a lot better [01:25:05] than my little quick mock up. Yeah, but if they’re not happy, then I’ll say, look, I don’t know whether I [01:25:10] can meet your expectations, which is fair, I think. And then, [01:25:15] um, and then. Yeah. And then they can either, you know, go somewhere else or or not [01:25:20] go ahead if they don’t want to. And with the trial smile, I usually charge, say 499 [01:25:25] for the trial smile. And I’ll say to them, look, if you really don’t like it, you know, you’ve not invested [01:25:30] a huge amount of money and this isn’t going to go anywhere. Um, but then if you, [01:25:35] if you do like it, then yeah, then we can go ahead with the, with the composite and kind of go from there. [01:25:40] And I found that just works so much better.

Payman Langroudi: And the the basics of the injection moulding [01:25:45] technique that you use.

Sam Cope: So I use two stents and [01:25:50] then we mock up every other tooth and then every tooth. [01:25:55] And then we will place PTFE tape over [01:26:00] each bond. Place the composite in um [01:26:05] into each into each one, kind of do a bit of a clean up and [01:26:10] then we’ll place the next one in and then um, and then just do a bit of a clean up. And [01:26:15] I’ve just found the cleanup from that is really much better. Much better.

Payman Langroudi: So, [01:26:20] you know, are you not actually you’re compression moulding rather than impression injection moulding. [01:26:25]

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Where you place the composite around where it should be. And then put the.

Sam Cope: Uh, [01:26:30] put the missile in over the top and then there’ll be a hole in the incisal and then just inject [01:26:35] it. But I use heated composites. So I used to use Venus. Now I use Empress. Yeah, Yeah. So [01:26:40] I find that I find that works so much better. And I think it’s really important [01:26:45] to, before you do any injection moulding to be able to do freehand [01:26:50] first because, you know, if mistakes. Mistakes can happen voids. [01:26:55]

Payman Langroudi: You need to know how to do both.

Sam Cope: You need to know how to do both.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. There are times. There are times where freehand is important [01:27:00] to do right. The situations, many situations that you’ll have to do it in freehand. And there’s many [01:27:05] situations that would be good if it was predictability was completely there. And you can, you know, [01:27:10] it’s like a little magic trick, isn’t it? I could show you, show you before, before you actually do it, what it’s going to look like, [01:27:15] which is beautiful.

Sam Cope: It’s so important to do as many kind of composite courses as you [01:27:20] can.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sam Cope: Monarchs totally. Composite course is great, but you’ll learn so much more [01:27:25] from doing different. Like Depeche Palmer’s course mini Smile makeover, you learn so many other [01:27:30] different skills and you’ll think, actually, I can do this differently and this is faster, or this works [01:27:35] better for me.

Payman Langroudi: It’s my pet hate. Yeah, we get a call, people say, hey, sell it to me on the phone, [01:27:40] you know? And you’re like, what do you mean? Well, I’m picking between this one and that one. Which [01:27:45] 1 a.m. I going to go to? And and you’re, you know, we I, we talk about [01:27:50] it and we, we give them we give them what they want. But in in your head, you’re thinking if [01:27:55] you were at all serious, you’d be doing all of them.

Sam Cope: Yeah, you should be doing all of them. Really.

Payman Langroudi: You know. [01:28:00]

Sam Cope: Because this is what you want to do.

Payman Langroudi: Let alone this one or that one. There’s about seven of them. You do them all. [01:28:05] You know, if you want, if you want to be that person, you want to learn something really well. And then let’s face [01:28:10] it, like we always say on MSM, it’s the beginning. It’s not the end, right? It’s the practising [01:28:15] is way more important than going on any courses.

Sam Cope: And it’s like, you know, when [01:28:20] between patients, I would usually be messing around with composite and like placing like composite [01:28:25] veneers over stuff. Yeah. Because it is true. Like the only way you get to the top [01:28:30] or to be the best dentist that you can be, is just through practice [01:28:35] and hard work.

Payman Langroudi: It was funny. The pitch was was saying, yeah, when I do an [01:28:40] examination and, you know, there’s really nothing that needs doing. A lot of times my eyes are just going over [01:28:45] the teeth and I’m just looking at tooth morphology.

Sam Cope: Yeah, yeah, [01:28:50] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And it was, it was so funny because I was staring at someone else, looking [01:28:55] at the patient, like, just in horror at this idea that that’s what he does. [01:29:00]

Sam Cope: Yeah. God, it’s so important. It’s so important just to understand, like, the line angles [01:29:05] and things.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And, you know, a lot of courses, they start with drawing the teeth. And there’s good reason [01:29:10] for that. There is good reason for that. If you can draw it first. Yeah.

Sam Cope: Then you’re making [01:29:15] it out of Play-Doh or something like that as well as a good one. Um, have.

Payman Langroudi: You have you moved [01:29:20] on to, you know, um, porcelain [01:29:25] work, big cases with porcelain. Are you very much [01:29:30] in the minimally invasive area?

Sam Cope: Yeah, I do porcelain cases just because composite [01:29:35] doesn’t work, which is.

Payman Langroudi: Known more for composite, is that is that the way it is? You’re more known [01:29:40] for composite?

Sam Cope: Yeah, I do more I do a lot more composite cases for sure. [01:29:45] But there are I mean I’ve got like 3 or 4 porcelain cases, big [01:29:50] porcelain cases on the go at the moment. And that’s mainly just because you [01:29:55] after a while of doing composite and you’re seeing your cases coming back, you see the people that [01:30:00] are good composite cases and you see the people that are not good composite cases. [01:30:05] So a good determinant I think is firstly like wear on the teeth is important. [01:30:10] And another, another good determinant is when they come in for that first [01:30:15] kind of consult, look at the staining on their natural teeth. Because when they have composite that’s going [01:30:20] to be ten times worse.

Payman Langroudi: So true.

Sam Cope: So if you you know, smoking is a big [01:30:25] one. If they’re smoking and they’ve I did a really lovely composite case. And [01:30:30] she came back maybe about three weeks later and the staining [01:30:35] was just ridiculous. Mainly just over the front 40th, which you can imagine [01:30:40] is going to be the worst with smoking.

Payman Langroudi: And definitely staining is the biggest issue with composite, right? That [01:30:45] you know, okay, you talk about chipping. Yeah, true. But staining tends to be the first [01:30:50] failure.

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um and so that’s why, you know it gets gets to me man. People [01:30:55] people don’t charge enough for composite veneers. You know it’s it’s hard work. It’s really hard getting [01:31:00] it right.

Sam Cope: And I say to P I say to patients, look the composites are like, you know, if you [01:31:05] buy a pair of shoes, you can wreck them around and have them last hardly [01:31:10] any time. But if you’re kind of polishing them every month and you’re careful with how you use them, you can make [01:31:15] them last years. So with your composite veneers, you know, obviously brush floss is normal. [01:31:20] But come back to see us for, you know, your composite polishing for [01:31:25] hygiene appointments so that we can see, you know, you might be able to see a little void or something [01:31:30] after, you know, six months. Once it’s stained a bit and you can just quickly fill that. And [01:31:35] they last so much longer if they’re if they’re regularly maintained.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, I would say bleach your composites. [01:31:40]

Sam Cope: Bleach composites. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah that is a great way to do it. And also you because [01:31:45] the biggest thing is getting stains kind of in between. And when you when you do bleach them it just [01:31:50] gets eliminates all of the stains. It’s so good.

Payman Langroudi: I’d say one day a month [01:31:55] for all patients after bonding. Yeah, definitely. Or longer? [01:32:00] Two days a month if you want to be really super duper. But yeah, but just to number one, what [01:32:05] you said to to clean them up if they haven’t been done before or [01:32:10] number two, prevent the stain from coming in the first place.

Sam Cope: Yeah, I do recommend that. And I have kind of [01:32:15] a composite aftercare form that I give all the patients. So I’m happy for this to be like a link [01:32:20] or something on the podcast if people want it. But I think it’s it’s definitely a really good thing. [01:32:25] And I also, um, I also after each consultation, I’ll write a [01:32:30] kind of summary of everything that we’ve talked about. And then at the end of, um, the big [01:32:35] treatment plans, I almost summarise it and then give them all the aftercare forms, and then [01:32:40] they usually do come back for those regular check-ups, but also kind of reinforcing it into saying that, [01:32:45] you know, composites are not going to last forever. I usually say it’s almost impossible to how long [01:32:50] it can last. I’ve seen them last hardly any time because of staining, and [01:32:55] I’ve seen them last like years and years, and they look almost like [01:33:00] the first day I placed them using exactly the same composite, exactly the same techniques, but it’s just about how [01:33:05] the person looks after them in their mouth.

Payman Langroudi: I think the oldest picture I’ve seen of Depeche is 12 years, [01:33:10] um, unpolished, unreported, his, you know, with microfilm. The whole [01:33:15] thing is the idea of not having to but but also for the teaching purposes. He wants to see what happens. [01:33:20]

Sam Cope: Um, yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then, buddy, he’s got [01:33:25] these 20 year composites. But, um, I feel like that was a long time ago that [01:33:30] I saw that picture.

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Amazing, man. I [01:33:35] mean, I’m learning a lot from you. I would like to get one more, like, [01:33:40] nugget of information around successfully carrying off this [01:33:45] kind of practice that you’re carrying off now. I mean, okay, you said you said you [01:33:50] said what you said. Um, but, you know, I talk to a lot of young [01:33:55] dentists, right? And a lot of them want to be you. A lot of them want to get to be you. [01:34:00] The minimally invasive, you know, AB, ABC or whatever you guys call it ABC, the minimally [01:34:05] invasive AB type dentist. And my advice often [01:34:10] is you can be that guy. You can be so many other types. [01:34:15] Yeah. Why do you want to be that guy? Right. And it is pleasurable. You know, I find wants [01:34:20] more pleasurable than needs in a way. There’s an honesty to it [01:34:25] that I like. Um, there’s there’s a sort of, uh, people want to [01:34:30] be there rather than need to be there. There’s a there’s a joy to it. Mhm. Um, [01:34:35] as well. But advice wise, someone wants to be you because a lot [01:34:40] of the youngsters want to be you. Should they jump in and do it. Should [01:34:45] they look at other things. And if they want to do it what should they do first?

Sam Cope: Yeah, I think [01:34:50] it’s very glamorous in terms of you’re almost like. [01:34:55] It seems to be what everybody wants to do at the moment that [01:35:00] a line bleach composite. But you are it is it is difficult because [01:35:05] even though you know the NHS work and things that you do is I found really difficult. [01:35:10] And that’s why I decided to kind of go into this route.

Payman Langroudi: You say it’s glamorous, right? The glamorous [01:35:15] side of it is a pain in the arse itself.

Sam Cope: It is a pain.

Payman Langroudi: Because it’s glamorous. Because it’s on Instagram. [01:35:20]

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And that means you have to do Instagram, which you could be spending your time doing [01:35:25] other things, learning other things for the sake of the argument. Right?

Sam Cope: Yeah. And dealing with patients [01:35:30] as well is hard.

Payman Langroudi: More difficult patients. Right.

Sam Cope: More difficult. Yeah. The [01:35:35] patients are more difficult. And also it’s the, um, patients expectations especially [01:35:40] I found in treatment.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sam Cope: They get yeah, definitely. They definitely do change [01:35:45] my treatment. But also, um, I found in London, patient expectations are [01:35:50] sky high. And it’s, you know, being able to deliver that kind of success. [01:35:55] And you see people will look at Instagram and say, oh, I want my teeth to look like this, [01:36:00] which is a dentist, maybe up north or something. But you’ve got to think that [01:36:05] all of the all of these like successful cases that you see where you’ve got these immaculate [01:36:10] composites, they’ve been followed previously by failures and things. So I think, [01:36:15] I think the most important thing, if you want to get to kind of this position, is just [01:36:20] to not be fazed by, don’t let your failures put you down. [01:36:25] But learn from them and yeah, and grow that way and practice [01:36:30] as much as you possibly can. Um, so any time a patient doesn’t turn up, [01:36:35] you should be looking at, you know, um, placing some composite veneers on some [01:36:40] plastic teeth or just getting the handling of the composite so that when you’re then doing a big case, then you can [01:36:45] do it. Um, but repetition and being okay with failure is [01:36:50] like, is really important because you’ll learn from it. And the great thing about composite is it is it is, [01:36:55] uh, it’s an unforgiving material in terms of the staining, etc., but it’s also a forgiving material [01:37:00] in the fact that you haven’t damaged any of the teeth.

Payman Langroudi: Very versatile. Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Sam Cope: It’s, [01:37:05] you know, you can. And also it’s not like porcelain veneers when once they’re placed it’s it’s harder [01:37:10] to kind of change them. You can change the composite or replace them or refresh them and [01:37:15] things too.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s an interesting thing. Imagine this young dentist, right. Could be you [01:37:20] or could be an endodontist. Yeah, totally different in many ways, [01:37:25] right? Number one, Endodontist doesn’t have to sell anything to anyone. Yeah, yeah. [01:37:30] That’s true. And pressure of sales is hard. It’s a hard thing. It’s hard to enlighten. I [01:37:35] see it in my sales team, you know. It’s tiring. Tiring?

Sam Cope: Oh, yeah?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Pressure of sales. [01:37:40] You haven’t got that as an endodontist. You haven’t got any exacting standards. As long as [01:37:45] it doesn’t hurt. Yeah, yeah. As an endodontist. But it’s not thought of [01:37:50] as a glamorous. By the way. Loads of money. You can make loads of money as an endodontist. [01:37:55]

Sam Cope: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. It’s one of the, one of the best ways of making a lot of money. Um, [01:38:00] in a kind of a predictable way. Um, totally opposites, [01:38:05] right? All things are opposites in it. But both great ways of going. [01:38:10] But one seems glamorous what you’re doing. And if you tell [01:38:15] most young dentists endo because most of them haven’t done many. They go, oh no, no, I don’t want [01:38:20] to do the.

Sam Cope: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting, isn’t it?

Sam Cope: Yeah. You should try it. You really. I mean, [01:38:25] in the different practices that you’re at, you’ll have sometimes that the practice that you’re [01:38:30] in leads you to become the dentist that you become, because you’ll find that you’ll either draw [01:38:35] inspiration from the people that are there, or you’ll see that there’s a definite gap in the market for something. [01:38:40] So then you upskill in that area, and then you take all the referrals from the other dentists. So. So [01:38:45] yeah. So I think if anybody wants to become this kind of dentist, [01:38:50] just takes takes a lot of hard work and just try and do as many courses that you can and and [01:38:55] just practice.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what’s your favourite book? Have you, have you bought a book ever on this subject? [01:39:00]

Sam Cope: Um, the, the book that I [01:39:05] refer to a lot is Sandra Ty’s book [01:39:10] for orthodontics. That’s really good for Invisalign and learning [01:39:15] about buttons and things, but I think.

Payman Langroudi: The name.

Sam Cope: Uh, Sandra. Ty.

Payman Langroudi: Thats [01:39:20] the author.

Sam Cope: Yeah, thats the author. And I can’t remember the exact title, but.

Payman Langroudi: How [01:39:25] do you spell Ty?

Sam Cope: Ty? Ty. Oh, yeah. So thats a really. Thats a really good book [01:39:30] for Invisalign. But then, um, a lot. Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: Go go.

Sam Cope: Go. Uh, [01:39:35] but then. Yeah, a lot of, a lot of my experiences come from doing the postgraduate [01:39:40] diploma. And then its really important that once you know, you [01:39:45] have to understand occlusion, you have to understand, [01:39:50] you know, um, the makeup of a smile [01:39:55] before you can then kind of go on and just place composites of course. [01:40:00]

Payman Langroudi: What’s your course? A course you’re desperate to go on.

Sam Cope: Um, [01:40:05] I’m probably I think the next courses that I’m going to [01:40:10] go on are probably more injection moulding courses, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Um huh. Just [01:40:15] just explore that area more.

Sam Cope: Explore it a little bit more. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have you ever thought of choice or spear [01:40:20] that sort of thing? That that angle?

Sam Cope: Um, a little bit, I think. [01:40:25] I think to like more courses that I’d want to do is communication courses.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? [01:40:30]

Sam Cope: They’re so important. Yeah. Um, tell me a bit more about the Khoisan spear.

Payman Langroudi: Of course. The spear. [01:40:35] You know, like, full on occlusion, full mouth rehab type courses. Um, [01:40:40] they’re sort of thought of as the best ones and expensive in America. Mhm. Continuum [01:40:45] of of of the. It’s not only that I’ve really shortened it but but [01:40:50] that’s you know, the kind of dentist you end up becoming. You look at where cases and, and and take care of, you [01:40:55] know, full mouth rehabs on them without worrying too much, I guess.

Sam Cope: Yeah. I mean, [01:41:00] I’ve done a few full mouth rehabs with composite and, um, [01:41:05] some with porcelain and then darling as well. But I think if I think if you have [01:41:10] kind of the core principles in mind, then and also again, learning from [01:41:15] your failures, you’ll be able to. Yeah, you’ll be able to do it. I’ve. I [01:41:20] do have another good, um, book. I think it’s Devang Patel [01:41:25] on full mouth rehabilitation. That’s a really good one. Um, and he goes through how he kind [01:41:30] of builds up composites. I like him and goes from kind of single tooth composites, right? The way to full [01:41:35] mouth rehabs. That’s a really good book.

Payman Langroudi: Have you been on his course?

Sam Cope: I haven’t actually, yeah, I would like [01:41:40] to go on it though.

Payman Langroudi: I like him. Lovely guy. It’s been a massive pleasure to have you, man. Um, [01:41:45] we’re going to end on the usual questions. Fantasy [01:41:50] dinner party.

Sam Cope: Okay. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests, dead or [01:41:55] alive.

Sam Cope: So, um, so [01:42:00] I, I’m also a massive history buff. Like, I love history, so, [01:42:05] um, I think, like, the first person I’d probably invite is probably, [01:42:10] uh, Augustus Caesar. Augustus. I think that’d be really cool.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [01:42:15]

Sam Cope: I think the reason is just because, um, this is going to like, [01:42:20] show me as, like a real history guy. But I do love like I love, like learning about the Roman [01:42:25] Empire, but also him as a person in terms of [01:42:30] managing the struggles that he went through, but also being the most powerful person in [01:42:35] the world. And how to manage that would be quite cool. Yeah. And then the other [01:42:40] two people. So my, uh, fiance, her dad, sadly [01:42:45] passed away when he was three, when she was three years old. So I’ve never met [01:42:50] him before. But the other two people I’d like to invite is is him [01:42:55] and then my fiance as well, because I think that would be really nice for them to be together, [01:43:00] and also for me to get to know him as well.

Payman Langroudi: That’s such a lovely thing. I normally [01:43:05] don’t allow that, that sort of response, but that’s such a lovely thing. That’s such a lovely thing [01:43:10] that you just said there. Beautiful, Beautiful. Final question. [01:43:15] It’s a bit weird. Young person like you. Deathbed.

Sam Cope: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Three pieces [01:43:20] of advice for your loved ones on your deathbed.

Sam Cope: I [01:43:25] think, I think. I think it’s almost a reflection of what we’ve talked about on [01:43:30] the podcast, which is knowing knowing when enough [01:43:35] is enough and being able and also being able to really, [01:43:40] you know, the meaning of life almost comes from being in [01:43:45] your tribe and having really good personal family friend [01:43:50] relationships. That’s so important because I’ve seen, like with my family, you [01:43:55] know, people not get on together and then people get lonely and then going into [01:44:00] depression and things like that. So it’s it’s so important. Like keeping your family and friends [01:44:05] relationships is is crucial. Um, and [01:44:10] then I think, you know, getting getting a passion and a hobby is [01:44:15] so important to, um, I think my, my hobby, because [01:44:20] I’m only doing it three days a week now. My hobby is almost become dentistry. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Mine is podcasting. [01:44:25]

Sam Cope: But, yeah, it’s, um, I think getting something that you really, [01:44:30] really enjoy. So say, like, um, something, you know, obviously, I enjoy [01:44:35] doing the dentistry and enjoying your job is really important. And like, with the physio, like, [01:44:40] I saw that I couldn’t really envision myself being a physio into my [01:44:45] like, 50s and 60s. So not being afraid to sometimes take a step back and think, [01:44:50] actually, is this what I want to do? And even though it’s a drastic change, which is like a big [01:44:55] financial risk and loss just to do it. Um, and then the other [01:45:00] thing is to maintain a balanced life, which is to ensure [01:45:05] you’re getting the right nutrition, sleep, exercise and stress management to be able to [01:45:10] kind of live and fulfil a good life. I’d say quite crucial. [01:45:15]

Payman Langroudi: Sure.

Sam Cope: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Really enjoyed that man.

Sam Cope: Yeah. [01:45:20]

Payman Langroudi: No worries. Really enjoyed that. Thank you so much for coming all the way.

Sam Cope: Oh it’s been a pleasure. It’s been really fun.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you.

[VOICE]: This [01:45:25] is Dental Leaders the podcast where you [01:45:30] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:45:35] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [01:45:40]

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened [01:45:45] to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through [01:45:50] and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some [01:45:55] value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And [01:46:00] if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, [01:46:05] so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

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