Payman Langroudi: Tooth sensitivity is an enigma, and it probably becomes a big issue [00:00:05] in different situations in dentistry, but definitely comes to a head in whitening if you have any [00:00:10] problems with sensitive patients. Patients with dentine hypersensitivity to have a go with the enlightened [00:00:15] comfort bundle. It’s a bioactive glass pen with a [00:00:20] hydroxyapatite toothpaste combination that works really well in all cases of [00:00:25] severe sensitivity. So have a look on enlightened Wspa.com. The enlightened comfort bundle. [00:00:30] Let’s get to the pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders, the podcast [00:00:40] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi [00:00:50] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome [00:00:55] Sam Cope onto the pod. Sam is a I would describe you as a minimally [00:01:00] invasive cosmetic dentist. Really? Um, a dentist who started [00:01:05] out as a physiotherapist. Um, a pleasure to have you, buddy.

Sam Cope: Yeah. Thanks so much. And thanks [00:01:10] for inviting me on the podcast. I’ve been I’ve listened a lot to the podcast and [00:01:15] with different people that have been on and things. So it’s yeah, it’s it’s when do you listen inspirational [00:01:20] that you have these people on.

Payman Langroudi: When do you listen?

Sam Cope: I actually [00:01:25] listen to my podcast when I’m in the gym. So I think it’s good because [00:01:30] it keeps you in the gym for longer and it’s almost dead time. So that’s what I listen. [00:01:35] Yeah, that’s what I listen.

Payman Langroudi: And how often do you go to the gym?

Sam Cope: Probably about four times. 4 or 5 times a week. [00:01:40] Oh, really? Yeah. I try and get into a routine. Yeah, usually. Usually in the mornings [00:01:45] or like, sometimes after work. I’ve. I’ve placed the gym so that when I, as I [00:01:50] walk home from work, I walk past the gym. So it’s a, it’s a real guilt trip if I don’t go. [00:01:55] So I’ve kind of done that on purpose just so.

Payman Langroudi: Have you read that Atomic Habits book or something.

Sam Cope: I actually [00:02:00] haven’t. Why? Is that something that you said?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sam Cope: Oh, right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So. Yeah, [00:02:05] that’s that’s what I do usually.

Payman Langroudi: So what time is that then? What time? What time do you wake up?

Sam Cope: Um, [00:02:10] usually about 6:45. Yeah. And then [00:02:15] I, I only work now clinically three days. So I [00:02:20] work Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. So all of teeth. All at love teeth.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Sam Cope: Monday and Tuesday [00:02:25] I have off. But I use that to reflect on all the cases [00:02:30] that I’m doing and also to do other things like things like this, all the fun things. [00:02:35] But I think reflecting on your practice [00:02:40] and going through, because I take pictures of everything, all the stages, and I go through all the cases [00:02:45] that I’ve done the week before, and I go through the cases that I’m going to do in the week, so that when I have my [00:02:50] clinical days, they are super kind of refined and everybody knows exactly what they’re doing. [00:02:55] I have like a list that my nurse has so she knows exactly what to get [00:03:00] out for each patient. So everything just works like a really fine tuned machine. So [00:03:05] having those two days works really well.

Payman Langroudi: How did you get into that habit? Um, [00:03:10] by chance, you are you, like, a massive perfectionist like you? [00:03:15]

Sam Cope: Um, I think I got into it just from different mentors and different [00:03:20] influences that I’ve had in the past. I remember like when I was when I was [00:03:25] in Liverpool, I was at the Dental house, and I remember Stuart Garton saying [00:03:30] to me, you know, dentistry, it’s it’s a marathon. It’s not a sprint. Yeah. And [00:03:35] I didn’t really understand that at the time because I was that one.

Payman Langroudi: Of your first jobs?

Sam Cope: That was. Yeah, my, one of my NHS first [00:03:40] jobs, which at the time I thought, you know, I didn’t really understand what it meant, but now I understand completely [00:03:45] what it means. There’s no like the faster you try to go, it seems like it [00:03:50] can be counterproductive. You make the same mistakes. Yeah, but if you kind of take it slow, You learn [00:03:55] from your mistakes and then you can. You can grow. You get so much better.

Payman Langroudi: Give [00:04:00] me an example. Then when you’re when you’re looking at cases, past [00:04:05] cases and future cases on that day off. Give me an example of something that [00:04:10] you learn by doing that, that the next man doesn’t learn by not doing that. [00:04:15] Like, what kind of thing are we talking.

Sam Cope: Yeah. So I’ll be I’ll, I’ll [00:04:20] do a case and then I’ll look at all of the pictures and something that, you know, the patient walks out, they’re super [00:04:25] happy. Um, and you’re kind of buzzing because you’ve just finished your Invisalign. [00:04:30] You’ve done the composite, and it looks fantastic. You look at the pictures [00:04:35] and you look at kind of your build ups and things, and you think, actually that [00:04:40] tooth looks a little bit grey. Like if we if, you know, if I was going to post that, it [00:04:45] looks a little bit grey. Not really too happy with it. I’ve probably placed too much enamel. So really I need to increase [00:04:50] the dentine layer. Or it could be, you know, you’re cutting veneers [00:04:55] and you look at the the prep and you think, actually, I’ve over prepped there. Or you might say, actually [00:05:00] there’s a, there is a little bit of a black triangle. So maybe I should have taken through the [00:05:05] interproximal aspects, gum levels as well. [00:05:10] I find sometimes where you’ll finish the case and everything looks great, and then you can see [00:05:15] that one of the gums is, you know, slightly square rather than having a nice curve [00:05:20] to it. So you think, actually, if I’d had just done a little bit of laser or laser or something, yeah, [00:05:25] that would have looked great, or using some of the gum cutting burrs I find [00:05:30] works really well. Um, only if it’s for something very, very small.

Payman Langroudi: When I was a dentist, [00:05:35] there was this burr that used to cut gum and coagulate at the same time. Do you know what I’m talking [00:05:40] about? It’s like a ceramic burr.

Sam Cope: Yeah, I think.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the.

Sam Cope: One I’m using. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Does that still exist? [00:05:45] Yeah.

Sam Cope: Canal, um, introduced me to that burr. Oh, really? Yeah. It does work really well, [00:05:50] I think with with kind of gum contouring and things I’ve done Reena Wadia’s [00:05:55] course for crown lengthening. I think if you’re doing like very small you.

Payman Langroudi: Can do that. [00:06:00]

Sam Cope: Yeah, you can do it, but if not then definitely recommend kind of doing flaps and [00:06:05] and are.

Payman Langroudi: You comfortable with blood. Are you comfortable with flaps and implants [00:06:10] and things?

Sam Cope: I don’t do implants, but I would be happy with doing the flaps [00:06:15] and things I’d say.

Payman Langroudi: I’d say that’s something that one of the things that keeps people away from implants, [00:06:20] right. That not not comfortable with flaps, not comfortable with taking flaps back [00:06:25] and putting them, you know, suturing them back together again.

Sam Cope: Yeah. That’s true. I [00:06:30] think, um, you’ve got I think you’ve just got to learn how everything can fail, but then [00:06:35] you to feel comfortable. So then, you know, if you know, then what you can do [00:06:40] to fix it. I think that’s the key.

Payman Langroudi: Did you qualify?

Sam Cope: So I qualify 2019. [00:06:45]

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Sam Cope: Yeah. So not that long ago.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. That’s pretty. That’s [00:06:50] pretty good going. What? You’re what you’re up to in five years.

Sam Cope: Yeah, I suppose [00:06:55] I’ve had great mentors and I’ve just practised so much, [00:07:00] like most. I remember when I was in the Dental house, I was really lucky because [00:07:05] it was an NHS contract that I had, but most of the [00:07:10] clinicians that were working in there say orthodontists, um, people doing composite veneers. [00:07:15] So I had great mentors from them who just, just let me watch as well, which is quite rare [00:07:20] for dentists, I think. So a lot of dentists don’t want you to see what they’re doing. But I had [00:07:25] say if I was going to name drop Kate Jigs Patel. Viraj Patel. [00:07:30] Yeah, such lovely people, even, um, even Stuart [00:07:35] Garson and Rick, they, you know, let me come in and watch them and I’d spend my [00:07:40] days off kind of coming in to watch them because I’d have a day off in the week. And you find that you’re [00:07:45] clinical. You’ll, you’ll always learn from another dentist just by watching them, no matter what dentist [00:07:50] they are, I’m loving.

Payman Langroudi: I’m loving the fact that you’re sort of putting [00:07:55] days off as part of the education. I’m loving that. It’s [00:08:00] weird. Like for me, in my head, that sort of reminds me of, I don’t know, an advert where you have nothing in one [00:08:05] corner of an advert, we call it Negative Space. Yeah, a negative space in dental education. [00:08:10] Like you’re saying, back then, you were taking a day off and watching people, [00:08:15] you know, shadowing them. And right now you’re taking days off and [00:08:20] using those days off to treat and plan and reflect on your previous work. It’s kind [00:08:25] of an interesting thing, man, because, you know, it’s like maybe, you know, like they say, own the gym, don’t [00:08:30] don’t go to the gym seven days a week, you know, like allow some rest and recuperation. [00:08:35] Like in in our terms, in education terms, rest and recuperation doesn’t necessarily [00:08:40] mean sitting on the sofa watching TV. It could mean not having [00:08:45] to be there at 830 in the morning, all dressed up. But working on your career? [00:08:50]

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And very interesting.

Sam Cope: Yeah, yeah, I think doing the three days a week [00:08:55] is great because it means you still kind of you’re like, fired and [00:09:00] ready to go every week. You’re kind of like, oh, I’m actually ready to get back into work now and see impatience. Yeah. And [00:09:05] then on the days off, it’s great as well. I usually have my weekends where it’s just chill [00:09:10] and I try not to think about work. And then on the Monday, Tuesday, I can kind of really [00:09:15] focus down on what’s going on, find, um, I find Instagram and [00:09:20] social media that takes up a lot of time. I was thinking of even getting a kind [00:09:25] of social media manager or something, but they’re really expensive as well. And you’re [00:09:30] always wondering, like, are they going to be able to portray you as well as you’d be able to portray yourself [00:09:35] with the photos and things?

Payman Langroudi: So to start with, no, the thing about [00:09:40] taking people on to do things is to start with quality will drop Compared [00:09:45] to you doing it yourself. Yeah, whoever that is, whatever the job is. Yeah. Because, you know, [00:09:50] you yourself, at the end of the day, you know, it’s it’s the way you want something done. Mhm. But [00:09:55] it’s also the thief of growth.

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know the [00:10:00] comparison is the thief of joy. Yeah. It’s the thief of growth because people who can’t [00:10:05] delegate generally have got sort of like a trust issue. Yeah. [00:10:10] Or a communication issue. Like I find for me it’s more a communication [00:10:15] issue than a trust issue. Some people are just brilliant at setting out what the task [00:10:20] is, what the deliverable is, and you know what progress looks like for someone [00:10:25] else. Yeah. But with me, when I when I’m asking someone to do something, I just [00:10:30] almost like saying I’ll figure it out sort of thing. And even if even though I know this fact, [00:10:35] it doesn’t come naturally to me to delegate in that way. Um, so [00:10:40] those two things trust and communication. But what will happen is that there’s like a dip. [00:10:45] And then if the person’s any good, it’ll be, you know, like the volume of, [00:10:50] of output will outdo the dip. Mhm. And just depends man. It depends [00:10:55] if you’re the type of person who, you know, if one post that’s incorrect is going [00:11:00] to break your heart, then you better not grow.

Sam Cope: I was uh [00:11:05] I’ve got two younger brothers. Yeah. And they’re in this social media age. [00:11:10] They must be you. Oh, yeah. They’ve definitely broke the 10,000 hour rule [00:11:15] on. Oh, really? Yeah. So I was thinking, like, maybe it’s a good idea to kind of teach them, [00:11:20] and they can. I’ll give them a bit of pocket money. Yeah, they can do it. They’re probably better than these social [00:11:25] media managers and things if they if you help them to grow. But I agree [00:11:30] with you. I mean, I, I use different composite techniques and wax ups to [00:11:35] do my composites and I wanted some I wanted something doing well. So [00:11:40] I went to the lab, got to know the lab technicians really well, and [00:11:45] I showed them kind of how I want to do things. And we learned from each other because a lot of dentists [00:11:50] don’t go to the labs. And also a lot of the lab technicians are quite away from what goes on in the clinic. [00:11:55] So I definitely recommend for anyone listening to this to go to the lab, get [00:12:00] to know your technician, and kind of you can go back and forward with, you know, what you know [00:12:05] and what can help. And they can tell you what. And also they tell you new materials that are in and different techniques. [00:12:10] And you can also, if you’re really nice to them, they might even show you some other dentists work, [00:12:15] which also is really good to see.

Payman Langroudi: You know, education right. You’ve got, [00:12:20] you know, letters after your name type education. You’ve got short courses [00:12:25] and, you know, diploma type courses. You’ve got books. I don’t think you should. You should, [00:12:30] you know, people don’t buy enough books because books books sound expensive. [00:12:35] When you look at them you think, oh, £400 for a book, but that’s nothing compared to a course. Yeah. [00:12:40] And the amount of I mean, what tends to happen with the book is the author has got [00:12:45] the pride that, you know, if we’re putting a book out, I’m going to put value into that book. [00:12:50] And there’s. But then, but then education from your technician. I [00:12:55] had one technician who was just an absolute gem. He taught me so much. So much. [00:13:00] Um, brilliant guy, John Oliver in Kent. Um, [00:13:05] but but also salespeople. You know, it’s funny. People, people [00:13:10] tell their receptionists, keep salespeople away. But that salesman [00:13:15] who comes into your practice with the whatever it is, you know, whatever the guy [00:13:20] is selling, he’s got product knowledge. He’s got market knowledge, you know, [00:13:25] that you’re not going to have you’re not going to have. He’s going to tell you what the most successful [00:13:30] dentists using that product is doing and, and how and [00:13:35] that’s gold. And yet we spend our time telling our receptionist. Keep salesmen away. [00:13:40] Salesmen for me are, yes, free CPD for someone who wants to sell [00:13:45] you something. Yes, he wants to sell you something. But free CPD and education [00:13:50] is so multifactorial. What would you say is the most valuable? [00:13:55] I’d say the shadowing one.

Sam Cope: Yeah, the shadowing is very good because, I mean, [00:14:00] I spent a little bit of time with, um, with Rosie, [00:14:05] and she was an oral surgeon, and she showed me how to take teeth out. And I swear I’ve learned more [00:14:10] in that morning with her than I did throughout my whole university. Just really [00:14:15] simple techniques that you look at her taking a tooth out and it just looks like you think. You think to yourself, [00:14:20] you know, God, what my teeth actually held in with because she’s getting them out. They’re just falling out like rain. [00:14:25] Yeah. Um, but, yeah, it’s probably the most important thing.

Payman Langroudi: When did you when did you [00:14:30] decide the kind of dentist you wanted to be? At what point did you [00:14:35] decide, or maybe you haven’t decided yet. Yeah, but were you the type [00:14:40] in university to be thinking I want to be a [00:14:45] private dentist, or I want to be a cosmetic dentist? Or what do you think? What were you thinking [00:14:50] at university about your career going forward?

Sam Cope: So I come from a very kind of 21st [00:14:55] century family. I’ve got a step grandad and a step uncle. Go [00:15:00] on. Yeah. Spell that.

Payman Langroudi: Spell that out for me. Spell it.

Sam Cope: Spell it out. So my grandma remarried. [00:15:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sam Cope: So he’s my step granddad. And then his son is my step uncle. [00:15:10]

Payman Langroudi: He’s got a whole step family then.

Sam Cope: Yeah, yeah. Oh, God. Yeah. I’ve got, like, six brothers. [00:15:15] Like, I won’t go into all of that. It’s like four step brothers. Two half brothers. It [00:15:20] just goes on. But I found that I was [00:15:25] watching. I was watching my step granddad work because he was a dentist and my step uncle was a dentist. [00:15:30] Oh, really? So he worked in a predominantly NHS practice. I shadowed him [00:15:35] and that, you know, he was very old school [00:15:40] and he would just see. You know, 50 patients, maybe more a day, [00:15:45] and he’d have two surgeries running and he’d just bat between the two. No communication happened between [00:15:50] him and his patients. It was just I’d say to him, oh, what did you do for that patient? He went, oh, we just did a root canal. [00:15:55] I was like, did he even know that? Whereas my step uncle, [00:16:00] he he works on Pont Street and he’s fantastic. And [00:16:05] he sees lots of kind of high end people in London. Yeah. Pont Street [00:16:10] in London. Oh, okay. Yeah. And he does fantastic work. That was kind of what inspired me to do [00:16:15] dentistry. I saw him once. There was a woman and her tooth was completely [00:16:20] shattered. She’d fallen over and he’d just rebuilt it so fast with composite. [00:16:25] But when I was, when I was at university, I’d always just thought I was going to do general dentistry. [00:16:30] I never had like a massive flair for composite or anything like that, really. [00:16:35] But when I did my foundation year, my friends were saying, [00:16:40] oh, we’re going to do like a composite course. So I ended up going on the totally [00:16:45] composite one with monarch, and I watched him kind of.

Payman Langroudi: As a foundation.

Sam Cope: As a foundation. [00:16:50] Yeah, just towards the end. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Good time to do it.

Sam Cope: And I just found like [00:16:55] after after doing a course like that, I was like, wow. I never realised [00:17:00] that because, you know, when you’re at university you’re taught how [00:17:05] to do something, but you have this huge anxiety that, oh, if I get this wrong, then [00:17:10] I’m going to have to reset the year or I’m going to have to reset the class. So you can never really relax. And I feel [00:17:15] that you learn when you’re relaxed and you’re you’re enjoying it. And and when [00:17:20] you can see that you can do it, then it’s just yeah, fantastic. So I did I did that, [00:17:25] then I ended up doing the year long course with him. And it was after that that I thought, yeah, [00:17:30] do you know what? I think I’d really like to do the composite.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of stream.

Sam Cope: That kind of dentistry. [00:17:35] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the journey from schoolboy to physiotherapist [00:17:40] to dental school.

Sam Cope: Yeah. So I through [00:17:45] so I always really liked biology helping people. [00:17:50] So I thought, you know, doing something to do with medicine would be great. [00:17:55] I then finished, finished school [00:18:00] and I just didn’t think I was going to get the grades to do medicine or dentistry. So I looked elsewhere. [00:18:05] I was thinking like, maybe I should do biomedical sciences or something, but [00:18:10] then somebody with.

Payman Langroudi: A view, with a view to eventually doing.

Sam Cope: With a view to move. And then somebody said, well, you’re [00:18:15] probably just really enjoy physio. So I did physio and I did that at King’s [00:18:20] in London and that was amazing. It was very research heavy. [00:18:25] Um, so it was very intense. I actually, I’ll be honest, I found [00:18:30] the exams for physio a lot harder than the exams for dentistry. Really? And [00:18:35] it was. It was a fantastic experience and it was intense because [00:18:40] we’d have, you’d have 9 to 5 lectures every day and then the summer holidays you’d [00:18:45] spend on placements and you’d think that in London, you know, [00:18:50] there’s loads of hospitals in London that you could go and but there’s also loads of universities in London [00:18:55] students. So you could be shipped off to Middlesex, Kent for your placements [00:19:00] and then, you know, you’re, you’re in hospital accommodation, which I’ll, I’ll tell you is [00:19:05] dire. Yeah. It’s horrible.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve spent I’ve spent a fair amount of time in hospital accommodation. [00:19:10]

Sam Cope: Yeah. It’s it’s like you’re in a cardboard box with. So, [00:19:15] um, so.

Payman Langroudi: You’re telling me physio what is as hard a degree as dentistry?

Sam Cope: I thought it was harder. [00:19:20] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s so interesting, man.

Sam Cope: It was.

Payman Langroudi: It was the hardest degree around. [00:19:25] That’s so interesting, man.

Sam Cope: Yeah, I felt I mean, I suppose [00:19:30] I’d already done physiotherapy, so I already knew how to learn. But when I was doing my [00:19:35] dental degree, I was working as a physio Monday, Tuesday nights [00:19:40] and Saturdays.

Payman Langroudi: During the degree.

Sam Cope: During the degree. Wow. And then I [00:19:45] even like I remember the night before my finals, I had like a list of five patients [00:19:50] in the evening.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Sam Cope: Um, mainly. I mean, I know that sounds ridiculous, [00:19:55] but it was mainly just so that I could switch off because I just thought, well, I’m not going to learn anything now. I might as well make a [00:20:00] little bit of money and just kind of set my mind aside.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s a bit different to my night [00:20:05] before the exam. I’ll tell you that. The caffeine tablets. I [00:20:10] was studying all that, but. So you worked [00:20:15] as a physio for how long before deciding to do dentistry? [00:20:20]

Sam Cope: So I finished, I finished my degree in physiotherapy, and then I worked for a year [00:20:25] as a physiotherapist, so I was working full time, seeing 20 patients [00:20:30] a day and it was really good. I learned a lot and you learn a lot [00:20:35] about neck back pain, how that works, and then you also learn loads about how [00:20:40] to treat it. So I was also the physio for Millwall rugby team, [00:20:45] which was cool. And then whilst I was doing dentistry I had my own. I [00:20:50] worked for a private clinic so I was on Rodney Street in Liverpool working there, but [00:20:55] then I was also the physiotherapist for Merseyside Fire and Rescue and the Philharmonic [00:21:00] Orchestra, so that was really cool. So I used to get free tickets to the Philharmonic, and then I used to get [00:21:05] some cool stories from the fire brigade.

Payman Langroudi: In a way. On the top of your game in physio, [00:21:10] I mean one year out, but still on the top on a trajectory to be a top physio. [00:21:15] What is the reason for switching? Is the pay terrible? Is that [00:21:20] what it is? I mean, is the pay terrible?

Sam Cope: The pay is you work hard [00:21:25] for the pay that you get. But it wasn’t really that that stopped me. It was more the fact [00:21:30] that there’s a ceiling effect where I felt that the [00:21:35] more the more pay I could. You know, the trajectory was to either open up your own musculoskeletal [00:21:40] clinic, but then there’s only so many patients that you can see in a day. So then it would obviously [00:21:45] be looking at hiring associates and things, or it was going down the route of being with [00:21:50] a football team or a rugby team and following them around the world, which is intense. [00:21:55] And also I found that working for rugby teams and things you [00:22:00] are, you’re obviously there to help them and the players respect you, but you [00:22:05] I never really felt like I was part of the team. I always wanted to play rugby or football with [00:22:10] them because when you’re the person that they [00:22:15] come to when they’re injured, so you’re almost the person that they [00:22:20] don’t really want to see, which is fair enough.

Payman Langroudi: But what a.

Sam Cope: Yeah. So [00:22:25] I felt and also because I was thinking about, you know, the dentistry with my step [00:22:30] uncle and granddad. I just thought, do you know what I can? I could never really envision myself as [00:22:35] being a physio forever. I kind of wanted to branch out, and I thought that if [00:22:40] I didn’t take the opportunity to do dentistry or even medicine at that time, I probably [00:22:45] would never do it. So I thought, well, why don’t I just do the degree and then I can [00:22:50] always decide. I kept my physiotherapy running throughout just in case, [00:22:55] and I still have my Healthcare Professions council um, registration now so [00:23:00] I can still do physiotherapy if I, if I really wanted to, but um, [00:23:05] but yeah, that’s kind of what happened.

Payman Langroudi: And so with that insight [00:23:10] into physiotherapy, you must know a lot about dentists backs. [00:23:15]

Sam Cope: Yeah. We I did a lot of research with it where it [00:23:20] said something like 60 to 90% of dentists will get back [00:23:25] pain at some point in their life. Yeah, and I did a survey amongst, [00:23:30] um, final year students at Liverpool [00:23:35] Dental School and the results were quite, um, quite interesting where [00:23:40] it said, they said that something like 40% of dentists had experienced back or neck pain [00:23:45] in the last six months, and 14% had sought professional [00:23:50] help. The other thing was that the education was quite [00:23:55] poor, whereas most people thought that limiting exercise [00:24:00] and bed rest was probably the best way to manage back pain and [00:24:05] also to improve your posture. Whereas in actual [00:24:10] fact, it’s the opposite. Yeah, yeah. Um, for back pain, you need to be moving as much as possible. [00:24:15] And posture has limited to no [00:24:20] role in the amount of back pain that you have. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How much of [00:24:25] back pain is, is sort of specific to the to the patient as opposed [00:24:30] to their habits. You know how you know in perio disease there are susceptible [00:24:35] patients.

Sam Cope: Oh, okay.

Payman Langroudi: Are there backs that are more susceptible. I mean, [00:24:40] does does a back have intrinsic areas of weakness different for [00:24:45] each person? Or would you say in your opinion that it’s just like we all get a similar [00:24:50] back and some of us treat it better than others?

Sam Cope: Yeah. I mean, some I mean, some people [00:24:55] will have medical conditions like scoliosis, which will. Yeah, yeah. Which will make them more susceptible. [00:25:00]

Payman Langroudi: I guess there’s a preclinical kind of.

Sam Cope: But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That could be going on in many of us. Right.

Sam Cope: The [00:25:05] biggest factor is just the amount of exercise that you do. And also your [00:25:10] your mental state has a massive component on it. Stress. Yeah, [00:25:15] definitely. Yeah. Um, if you’re if you’re in a really good place and [00:25:20] you’re doing lots of exercise. It’s very unlikely that you’re you’ll get back pain. But if [00:25:25] you’re, you know, depressed or very stressed at work, then you’re much more likely [00:25:30] to get back and you’re not exercising, then you’re much more likely to get back pain. [00:25:35] And then it’s interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Because I took five years off clinical practice when we started enlightened, [00:25:40] and then after five years, what I had in my head was mothers get [00:25:45] pregnant, take five years off, and then they come back and become dentists again. I thought I could just about [00:25:50] pull it off, you know. So it took five years off. On my first day back and my first week [00:25:55] back, I had an awful back pain. Yeah, I don’t think it was because, oh, my back wasn’t used [00:26:00] to. It was the stress of giving an ID block for the first time [00:26:05] in five years. You know, or, you know, cutting a crown for the first time in five years. All the things [00:26:10] that I was stressed, I was worried about how it would be going back. And [00:26:15] then once I realised, oh, it’s okay, I’m all right. Suddenly, the back pain went straight away [00:26:20] like it was. It was the stress that was causing it. You know.

Sam Cope: I think a lot of the stress comes from [00:26:25] if you get back pain, a lot of people don’t know what it is and [00:26:30] they think, oh, wow, have I really injured my back? You know what’s going on? Is it muscle? Is it. And [00:26:35] I think when when I did physiotherapy, it was all about kind of doing different [00:26:40] tests and then trying to find out what was going on. But never would it be an x ray or MRI. [00:26:45] Whereas with a, with dentistry, you know, you have to take the x ray and you see the problem, [00:26:50] you treat it and then you get rid of the caries or you do the root canal. But it’s very different [00:26:55] with back pain. I’d say 90% of back pain is non-specific. There is no [00:27:00] you can do every MRI x ray on the planet. You’ll never find the pain. It’s [00:27:05] so there was interesting. Yeah, there was a study that was done on [00:27:10] the amount of it basically had thousands of people and they’d [00:27:15] done MRIs Memorised throughout, you know, 20, 30, 40, 50. You know, you can have early [00:27:20] osteoarthritic changes at 20, but there’s no pain. [00:27:25] It’s what you see on an MRI isn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Related.

Sam Cope: Related to the pain. [00:27:30] Yeah. Which is what? So that’s why it always worries me when, you know, people get private medical [00:27:35] insurance and they get a bit of back pain, and then they go and get an MRI and they say, oh, you’ve got [00:27:40] a herniated disc here, or you’ve got osteoarthritic changes or disc thinning. [00:27:45] And then they’ll say, oh, well, you know, I’m going to go and see the surgeon because the surgeon sees, [00:27:50] you know, he’s only really it’s almost like the one hammer, one nail kind of thing. [00:27:55] So I’d, I’d just recommend anybody that does have back pain just to firstly find [00:28:00] an evidence based physiotherapist and then see them first and [00:28:05] then go from there. Really.

Payman Langroudi: But then if let’s say there is [00:28:10] like a slipped disc that could be causing a big problem. I guess one of the things you guys have [00:28:15] to learn is when to refer to a back specialist or like one.

Sam Cope: Yeah, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Spinal surgeon [00:28:20] or whatever. What’s that thing called where you can cause incontinence if you don’t take care [00:28:25] of it straight away?

Sam Cope: It’s called cauda equina.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right.

Sam Cope: Um, but yeah, these. [00:28:30] I mean, it’s so rare.

Payman Langroudi: Is it?

Sam Cope: Yeah, yeah. I mean, but that’s why it’s [00:28:35] so important. As soon as you if you get if you get back pain, it’s best just to settle your mind. Go and see a physiotherapist. [00:28:40] Yeah. And then they’ll be able to tell you if there’s, if there’s a real problem. And also [00:28:45] the if you do have a real like a herniated disc, then usually you’ll have [00:28:50] burning pins and needles, numbness down one or both legs all the time. Incontinence. [00:28:55] Yeah. You wouldn’t be waiting for your appointment. You know, you’d just be.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sam Cope: You’d [00:29:00] know.

Payman Langroudi: So as a dentist, what are the things that we do that are really bad for our backs? Is [00:29:05] it as obvious as we don’t use loops and we, you know, what [00:29:10] are the top tips? What can we do? Exercise, stretch. That sort of thing.

Sam Cope: Yeah, I’d say top tips are [00:29:15] when you’re in surgery, the best posture is the next posture. Don’t [00:29:20] try and stick into one posture.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, interesting.

Sam Cope: Do whatever you feel is more comfortable. [00:29:25] And then that will really help with your pain. Another thing would be [00:29:30] our days are stressful. You know, you see the BDA guidelines of, you know, [00:29:35] you’ve got to do so many stretches in between patients and you’ve got to sit with one patient, stand with the next [00:29:40] patient.

Payman Langroudi: Is that right?

Sam Cope: That’s like, you know that’s intense. Like our days are already intense enough. [00:29:45] And if you’ve got like 30 NHS patients a day, how would you remember to do all this stuff? You won’t remember. [00:29:50] The most important thing is just to, you know, the NHS guidelines is to do 150 [00:29:55] minutes of moderate intensity exercise every day. Just going for a run or doing [00:30:00] the exercise that you enjoy is the most important, because that’s the one that you’ll continue [00:30:05] to do. If you try and force yourself to do, I don’t know the rowing machine and you don’t [00:30:10] like rowing, you won’t do it. You’ve got to give yourself an achievable goal. Um, [00:30:15] but also I do, um, I like it in America, where, you know, if you [00:30:20] want to get, like, strong, then you’ll get a personal trainer to help you in the gym. [00:30:25] Yeah. I feel like as a dentist, like, we go through so much stress, which we don’t [00:30:30] really talk to other people about it because I think it can be perceived as weakness or you’re [00:30:35] not doing your job correctly. But I think seeing counselling or having, um, psychological [00:30:40] help or therapist. Yeah, it’s really good. It’s almost like a personal trainer for your brain. [00:30:45] For your mind. Yeah. And all that. You know, you see these high corporate Americans or [00:30:50] even, like the people in Liverpool Street here or Fenchurch [00:30:55] Street, they’ve all got their own therapists because their jobs are so stressful. Talking [00:31:00] to them and then giving them strategies and being able to to help them really [00:31:05] helps you to kind of negotiate what’s going on in your [00:31:10] life and helps to reduce the stresses and makes you a better person, but also helps you deal [00:31:15] with your job and problems in a much more efficient way.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I think, you know, I do [00:31:20] that mental health thing with Rona, and one thing I found is very useful [00:31:25] way of looking at it is kind of what you said about, you know, there is a spectrum all the way from fully optimising [00:31:30] on one side to, you know, being really, really down on the other side. [00:31:35] And you can go up and down that, that staircase. Um, but [00:31:40] that, you know, some people will be on stair nine out of ten and want to get to ten out of ten because they [00:31:45] want to optimise as executives or whatever, and they’ll use a therapist for that. And some people [00:31:50] will be at rock bottom and want to just, you know, survive that. Um, [00:31:55] do you think that with your generation the sort of taboo of that is [00:32:00] less or would you say it’s still there?

Sam Cope: I think it’s definitely I think it’s definitely less [00:32:05] in my generation. I mean, I’m I know I’ve at the moment, my dad’s going through [00:32:10] some troubles and I’ve said, you know, you need to go and see a therapist and things and you do get a lot [00:32:15] of resistance.

Payman Langroudi: From from his generation.

Sam Cope: Yeah, he’s in his 60s and he’s, you [00:32:20] know, he’s the I feel like the life philosophies are very different, probably [00:32:25] from the parents talking to them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sam Cope: I read a really interesting study. It was [00:32:30] I’m sure you’ve probably heard of it before, but it was a Harvard study and [00:32:35] it was called the Adult Development Research, and [00:32:40] it was basically 7 or 800 people, and they came [00:32:45] from all different backgrounds. Most of them were kind of Harvard guys. And then they also [00:32:50] got quite a few from Boston where they were kind of at rock bottom. And [00:32:55] they did a long term trial that went well. It’s still ongoing now, but it’s over [00:33:00] about eight years. And they were looking at happiness and [00:33:05] they found that. The trial’s almost conclusion. [00:33:10] I mean, it’s still ongoing, but happiness doesn’t come from fame, material [00:33:15] wealth. It comes from the quality of personal [00:33:20] relationships that you have with friends and family. That was the biggest determinant of [00:33:25] life longevity, happiness. And yeah, [00:33:30] and just overall overall kind of quality of life as well.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting isn’t [00:33:35] it? I mean, I think I was 45 before I disassociated happiness from [00:33:40] joy.

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I was up to 45, up to [00:33:45] 44. I used to think happiness must have a giant component of joy. [00:33:50] Mhm. And yet now I’ve changed my mind on it. I’ve changed my mind on it. I mean, [00:33:55] it’s surely nice to have joy around, right. There’s no there’s no doubt about that. Yeah. But I used to equate [00:34:00] them together so much and that’s not the case. I [00:34:05] felt it’s good for someone who learned this skill. I was I was telling my kid, I was telling my my 13 year [00:34:10] old about it, and I was saying, it’s much better for you to learn it at 13 than than wait till 44. [00:34:15]

Sam Cope: Yeah. It’s so true. I mean, I was listening to a podcast with [00:34:20] Steven Bartlett, and he had somebody on there and he, you know, after you earn a certain amount [00:34:25] of money, I think the figure is like 100, 150,000 or something. Anything you earn [00:34:30] over that amount, it’s not really improving your happiness. It’s it’s just pleasure. So [00:34:35] like when you buy like the latest Ferrari or a new watch or something like that. [00:34:40] Yeah. You are, you’re giving yourself joy or pleasure. Yeah. And pleasure [00:34:45] and joy. That’s addictive. Yes. You want to get the next thing.

Payman Langroudi: Short and.

Sam Cope: Short bursts. [00:34:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sam Cope: And I think the key thing for that is, you know, a lot [00:34:55] of dentists are working five days a week and trying to trying to fund this pleasure. [00:35:00] Yeah. And I think sometimes it’s good to take a step back. You know, you don’t need to keep [00:35:05] up with the Joneses, you know? You see, my my step dad said to me [00:35:10] he was. He worked on the rigs and he was the manager of the the rig. He was [00:35:15] on the biggest amount of money. And one of the roustabouts, he was like the guy that’s like mopping [00:35:20] the rig. He said to him, like, God, it must be great being you. Like you’ve got so much [00:35:25] money. And Graham just said to him, look, the more money you earn, it’s just [00:35:30] different levels of skint because you just end up buying a bigger house [00:35:35] or buying something else, and then you just become a slave to what you own. Yeah. And I think I was listening [00:35:40] to this Jemmy Carr podcast and he was saying.

Payman Langroudi: I love him. I love.

Sam Cope: Him outside.

Payman Langroudi: Of comedy. [00:35:45] I like him in comedy. But when I’ve heard him speak outside of comedy, I [00:35:50] really, really like him.

Sam Cope: So philosophical.

Payman Langroudi: He’s brilliant. What is he saying? What was he saying?

Sam Cope: So he said [00:35:55] he was, um. He was taken. He was in America, and [00:36:00] this guy was taking him around this massive house and you had like, you know, [00:36:05] tons of cars and Ferraris and stuff. And he said to him, he took [00:36:10] him around that he was giving him a tour of the house, and he showed him this piece of artwork, and he said, Jemmy, [00:36:15] I bet this piece of artwork is probably worth [00:36:20] more than your whole salary for the year. And he says, and [00:36:25] then Jemmy, he’s great at his comebacks, isn’t he? Yeah, yeah. And he just said. He [00:36:30] said, you know what? Well, I’ve got something that he will never have. [00:36:35] The guy was like, what? Enough.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. Yeah. [00:36:40]

Sam Cope: And it’s so true isn’t it. Yeah. And I think for dentists too. Like [00:36:45] when is enough. Enough. When have you got what. Everything that you [00:36:50] need. Like why do you have to keep striving for like the next car or the next Rolex or [00:36:55] the next something. I think sometimes it’s good.

Payman Langroudi: I take your point and it’s a very good point. It’s a correct [00:37:00] point. Yeah. And it’s funny because in my language, the [00:37:05] root word for contentment and for wealth [00:37:10] is the same, same word, which is [00:37:15] sad, right? Because those two are very different to each other. But but there [00:37:20] is a thing. There is a thing. I remember talking to Robbie Hughes. You’ll know him. And [00:37:25] chasing watches and cars and planes is ridiculously stupid. [00:37:30] And there’s always a bigger watch and plane and car and all that, and it runs out very quickly. But I will [00:37:35] say something about money. Acceleration of wealth is very exciting. [00:37:40]

Sam Cope: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: For a while, for a second, for about a month. So you’ll, you’ll know this. You change [00:37:45] practice. You go to a new practice let’s say oh let’s say it’s a big jump like from NHS to [00:37:50] private. Right. And then the same mod whereas before it was whatever udas [00:37:55] now it’s £295 or something on the first one you do and you think, [00:38:00] wow, £295. Maybe you’ll do the reflection thing. Try and make it even a better one and better [00:38:05] one. But after a month, that just feels totally normal.

Sam Cope: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:38:10] it’s that moment of acceleration of wealth are quite exciting. And that’s one [00:38:15] thing about wealth. Yeah. Um, but Robbie would talk about living up to your [00:38:20] potential. And I find that quite an interesting way of thinking [00:38:25] about things because it’s not. It’s not my default. Yeah. But it definitely was his. You know, as [00:38:30] a sportsman, you know, he would say that, and he would look at dentistry as he wants to live up [00:38:35] to his potential in dentistry. You know, the dentist he wants to make in the world. Yeah.

Sam Cope: Yeah. [00:38:40] That’s great. Yeah, I think I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Canal, although you could take that back and say, hey, [00:38:45] where does that come from? Yeah.

Sam Cope: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like, how come you need to make a dent in the world? Like, why can’t you just [00:38:50] have tea and cakes with your kids, you know?

Sam Cope: Yeah. I think [00:38:55] as dentists, I think we are all cursed with the high achiever. I think if we were, you [00:39:00] know, if you want, if you, you know, I mean, I [00:39:05] was speaking to my brother about this. He’s a barrister. And he was saying to me like, you [00:39:10] know, we are quite well educated and we’re very privileged to be where we are [00:39:15] now.

Payman Langroudi: You and him.

Sam Cope: Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Um, but he said, wouldn’t it [00:39:20] be great if, like, you could just be happy and content with, like, just like a two [00:39:25] up, two down, two kids and, you know, just like a job that you go to every day and you’re completely [00:39:30] content. He said, we’re cursed with the fact that we have to achieve, and you have to do [00:39:35] this to get your happiness. Whereas most, you know, most people don’t have that. [00:39:40] Like, you know, when we talk about our, our lives, it doesn’t [00:39:45] we’re not like the, the general public, which sounds crazy, which [00:39:50] sounds like, yeah, crazy, but it is true. Like I do think we are. We are [00:39:55] all really high achievers, but I think that, um. Yeah, [00:40:00] I think so. Kunal Patel, he’s been a fantastic [00:40:05] mentor for me. And he said to me, look, when you start at love teeth, don’t think [00:40:10] about. Don’t be thinking about the money and things. He said just be the best dentist [00:40:15] that you can be and the money will just come from there. And it is true. I mean, I’ve been there for [00:40:20] a year and I’ve been doing the reflection thing and my, my biggest, [00:40:25] um, I get the most joy out of seeing patients that are really happy and my restorations [00:40:30] lasting a long time and them coming back. And then you’re building that rapport with patients [00:40:35] and you find that the the better you are. That way the money just [00:40:40] comes with it. And then you can do more things and improve in different ways. [00:40:45] And that’s where I found my happiness rather than directly in the money. I think if you [00:40:50] look directly at the money, sometimes that can lead to kind of burnout [00:40:55] as well.

Payman Langroudi: It’s it’s not inspirational, is it? It’s not, it’s not, it’s not it’s a massive [00:41:00] error. It’s a massive error. And as you say, the money is a very relative thing anyway, man. And that [00:41:05] that your dad’s thing was very true. It reminded me of what I was saying. My brother’s an NHS. [00:41:10] Uh, well, not an he’s a consultant radiologist, doesn’t like his [00:41:15] job very much. Hates it. And then I said to him, hey, would you be happy in your job if you earned six [00:41:20] times as much? And he said, well, of course I would. Um, but [00:41:25] then I said to him, but your day would be the exact same day. Yeah. And you know that that [00:41:30] guy mopping the rig with your dad?

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: They’re both on that rig. [00:41:35] Yeah, yeah, with water, you know, the rain falling on their heads or your dad’s taking [00:41:40] more than that guy. Yeah, but their day is the same kind of day.

Sam Cope: Yeah, I said, I said, I don’t [00:41:45] know how you did it for as long as you did. I said, it’s like a working Alcatraz out there. [00:41:50] It’s worse than Alcatraz because.

Payman Langroudi: Have you ever been on one?

Sam Cope: I haven’t, thank god. But, [00:41:55] um. But. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Would we be away for six months at a time or something?

Sam Cope: We usually do 2 to 3. [00:42:00] Three weeks on, three weeks off.

Payman Langroudi: Three weeks?

Sam Cope: Yeah. So, yeah, it [00:42:05] was. It seemed intense. It seemed to. He seemed to really like it. Um, but. [00:42:10] So this is my stepdad. So he married my mom probably about ten years ago. But, [00:42:15] yeah, when he finished working on the rig, it was, like, the best day of his life. He he [00:42:20] was really happy to finish because, you know, you’re in the North Sea. It’s freezing cold. [00:42:25] And you were on 12 hour shifts for three weeks. But he said [00:42:30] that some of the guys that worked on the rigs, they’d come off and then they’d just they lived in [00:42:35] Thailand or something, or you could just live wherever you wanted to in the world. So they lived like a king in Thailand. [00:42:40] Even these roustabouts that are on hardly any money.

Payman Langroudi: So interesting.

Sam Cope: Jet [00:42:45] off over there. And also while they’re on the rig, everything’s paid for.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. In general, the pay [00:42:50] is quite good, isn’t it? On it.

Sam Cope: Yeah. Yeah. The pay is decent. Yeah, but I mean, even [00:42:55] I mean, my cousin also did it, and now he works [00:43:00] on wind farms and things in the North Sea. But have you, have you heard about the training [00:43:05] that they have to do for that? So when they when they want to [00:43:10] go on the rig, they have to learn how to get out of a helicopter that’s going [00:43:15] under the water and things. So they’re all strapped in, and then they’re in a swimming pool and they’re in [00:43:20] kind of a kind of setup, and then they’re dunked into the pool. [00:43:25] Yeah, my cousin said he was in the front and he was quite calm. He’s quite, quite, quite a calm [00:43:30] person when it comes to things like that. But he said the person behind him wasn’t calm [00:43:35] at all and he was really flapping around and he was kind of grabbing my cousin down while it was going [00:43:40] underwater. They have divers there to help, but he said that was a really scary thing. And it’s [00:43:45] something like once a helicopter hits the sea, it will sink at a metre a second. [00:43:50]

Payman Langroudi: Or.

Sam Cope: So. Once it goes in. And yeah, I mean in a swimming [00:43:55] pool, it’s probably quite nice.

Payman Langroudi: But there are accidents, right? There are accidents of all sorts in those situations. [00:44:00] Right.

Sam Cope: Oh yeah, 100%. So you’ve got to learn, I mean, whether I think [00:44:05] it’s almost like the security at an airport, it’s probably they do these training things just to kind of give you that [00:44:10] sense of security. But if you’re in rough seas in the North Sea, even if you got out of the plane, [00:44:15] those waves are huge.

Payman Langroudi: So do you remember a time where [00:44:20] something switched in your brain because you’re you’re definitely now like after [00:44:25] excellence and doing the best and all of that. And yet you’re telling me [00:44:30] back in your teens you thought you couldn’t get the grades [00:44:35] for dentistry? Do you think you could have got the grades for dentistry, but you had the sort [00:44:40] of like a problem with confidence? Or [00:44:45] was there or were you a kid who wasn’t, you know, crossing the t’s and dotting the i’s while [00:44:50] in your teens. But then something happened in physiotherapy inspired you to say, [00:44:55] oh God, now I want to be the best, I want to, I want to learn everything. Do you remember an inflection [00:45:00] point or what would you what comes to mind when I say that?

Sam Cope: I think, um, I think when I was at school, [00:45:05] I was never kind of a massive high achiever. I was very average. And then when I got to college, [00:45:10] I did a slightly better. And then when I did want to finish.

Payman Langroudi: College, do you mean A-levels? Yeah.

Sam Cope: Yeah. And [00:45:15] then when I finished my degree, I managed to I managed to get a first [00:45:20] in my degree.

Payman Langroudi: And so in that period it was, it was constantly becoming more [00:45:25] and more into what you were doing.

Sam Cope: And I think it was more I think it was more like the belief [00:45:30] in yourself and the fact that actually I can.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sam Cope: Really do it and all it takes [00:45:35] because I’m not a naturally clever person. But like when I revise when [00:45:40] I was revising for physio or probably I revise more for physio than I did for dentistry, I [00:45:45] won’t lie. Um, but I remember doing like 12, 13 hour days for months. [00:45:50] And it proved to me that if you just really put the time in and put the hard work [00:45:55] in, then yeah, you can kind of do whatever you want.

Payman Langroudi: But what was it that [00:46:00] made you switch from being not that person in college to being that person in [00:46:05] university?

Sam Cope: Uh, probably. I mean, probably just probably [00:46:10] just like adversity. I would of thought, because I had a, I had a few, like, family [00:46:15] problems and things that were going on at the time. And then I just thought, right, I’ve really got.

Payman Langroudi: To the books. [00:46:20]

Sam Cope: Because I just thought because I almost got cut off at one point from, [00:46:25] um, my dad and family. And I just thought, wow, I’m completely on my own [00:46:30] here. If I don’t make this by myself, then I’m buggered. So I just thought, [00:46:35] right, I’ll just get my head in the books and just study my head off. And then my biological dad. That’s [00:46:40] my biological dad. Yeah. Um, so. Yeah, so I think I think sometimes [00:46:45] it does take. I know there’s there’s lots of famous people that say this, but when you do [00:46:50] have adversity, it really does drive you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, there would be no [00:46:55] Beethoven. There would be no Steve Jobs, you know, like all these people [00:47:00] went through massive adversity. Um, it’s interesting because [00:47:05] on one level, we’re talking about being content and peace and that [00:47:10] being the thing that we’re after. But on another level, it’s [00:47:15] the, you know, the pressure of life that’s brought out all this genius. Yeah.

Sam Cope: Yeah, [00:47:20] yeah. I think you’ve I think the end goal like, I’ve, I’ve obviously [00:47:25] had to work like really hard to get to where I am. But my end goal was always to kind of once [00:47:30] I’ve got to a point that I’m happy then to take a step [00:47:35] back and I can do my reflections and just take things a bit easier, more easily, [00:47:40] um, which seems to be working a lot better now, But that’s really that’s really [00:47:45] hard to do because, you know, everybody else is working five days a week. [00:47:50] And then you say to people, oh, I’m just doing three clinical days and it’s like, oh, wow, what’s wrong with you?

Payman Langroudi: No, it’s amazing. [00:47:55] I think it’s amazing. There would be no enlightened if I was doing five days a week as a dentist. Yeah. [00:48:00] No way. Um, but but also, I think it’s [00:48:05] not a rule for everyone, but I think for someone like me that if you want [00:48:10] to do dentistry at a high level, if you want to really take care of every step, [00:48:15] um, including the, you know, the social side, making people feel [00:48:20] amazing, including your staff, your patients, you know, all of that [00:48:25] and pay attention to the steps of the actual dentistry itself, the treatment, planning, all that. If you’re [00:48:30] working at that level, I think four days is the absolute maximum that you [00:48:35] can do that at a high level. Mhm. Once you take it to five days I think you then you [00:48:40] start. Okay I wouldn’t even say taking shortcuts, but it would be like I [00:48:45] would temporise something or I wouldn’t be at the top of my game mentally at the top of my [00:48:50] game, if I was treatment planning or, you know, talking to patients, then just something would slip. [00:48:55] And I think three days is absolutely perfect. Absolutely perfect. Whether [00:49:00] the other two days you’re going to do what you’re doing reflection, education, promotion [00:49:05] or something else altogether, you know.

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Property, [00:49:10] whatever. Whatever. You read a book by the river, you know, whatever, whatever it is for you. But [00:49:15] we’re lucky in that a lot of us on three days can earn enough [00:49:20] to support the life we want. It’s not the case in many jobs, right?

Sam Cope: It’s an incredible [00:49:25] opportunity. Like, I don’t really know any. And also how flexible [00:49:30] we can be as well. With our job. You can choose what days you want to do with which practice, which is so [00:49:35] rare in almost all professions. Isn’t it really? Yeah. Um. [00:49:40] Yeah. So important, I think, to like, I, I love, um, [00:49:45] I love, like, dentistry, but I love doing things outside of dentistry, so I’m a bit of [00:49:50] an adrenaline junkie. So I love kind of going skiing and doing [00:49:55] tricks and things, which is great. But then, um, I [00:50:00] wanted to speak a little bit about this because I was part of the, um, the skydiving [00:50:05] team in Liverpool, too. So I just look, when I got to, because I was, [00:50:10] I was quite I was so fortunate to be able to do another degree. I then thought, [00:50:15] right, what can I do that’s really out there? So it was £180 and [00:50:20] they taught you how to skydive on your own and then you got two jumps. So [00:50:25] everybody kind of got taught and then everybody kind of boozed the night before, [00:50:30] which they said, don’t drink anything. So I’m like, okay. And then you stayed in like a big bunker. [00:50:35] And then it was quite funny because the people that were really cocky on the [00:50:40] on the day and on the training.

Payman Langroudi: On the ground.

Sam Cope: When we were on this like tin can of a plane and [00:50:45] it was all ricocheting around everywhere, it felt like D-Day. And [00:50:50] they were really scared and didn’t say anything. You could just see one of them just completely [00:50:55] white. And then, um, and then. Yeah, and then jumping out of the plane. [00:51:00] And it was in the Lake District so you could see.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful.

Sam Cope: Yeah. So beautiful. All the mountains. [00:51:05] And you flew it down yourself. So I’d say for anyone, like if anybody’s listening to this, that’s like at university, [00:51:10] just take up all the opportunities that you possibly can.

Payman Langroudi: Did you just do those two [00:51:15] jumps or did you? No, I did loads and loads.

Sam Cope: Yeah, I did loads. Yeah. I almost like I [00:51:20] wanted to try and get my license, but it’s so hard in the UK because the weather’s not great. So [00:51:25] if the weather’s over, if sorry, if the wind is over 20 miles an hour, then [00:51:30] it’s difficult to land because the parachute goes is 20 miles an hour, then the training [00:51:35] parachutes. So you just end up.

Payman Langroudi: So did you free fall as well or not? [00:51:40]

Sam Cope: Yeah, we did. From free fall. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What’s that feeling like? Because I’ve been on those ones. Where? On [00:51:45] the ground. The fan thing. Oh, yeah. That feels good. But you’re not falling anywhere, right?

Sam Cope: It’s cool. Yeah. [00:51:50] And then. Yeah, you have to. So when you go through it, you. You jump out on a static line to start [00:51:55] off with about 3000, 3500ft. And then you’ll move on to [00:52:00] kind of dummy pulls where you’re like pretend to pull.

Payman Langroudi: Aha.

Sam Cope: And then you show the tutor [00:52:05] that you can do it. And then eventually you take you higher, and then you do a bit of freefall and then you go further [00:52:10] and further that way. I had a friend and I got there a little bit later [00:52:15] that day, and I spoke to another one of my friends who was on the ground, [00:52:20] and they said, oh, it’s the first plane gone up. And he said, yeah, the first plane has gone up and Ben is on the plane. [00:52:25] I was like, oh, okay, cool. And then I saw people, like jumping out on the static lines. [00:52:30] And when you’re when you when the [00:52:35] parachute opens, you have to wait. You do. You do this thing and it’s like [00:52:40] you go 1000, 2000, 3000. And then you say it again, and then [00:52:45] you look at your canopy and you make sure that it’s square and that everything looks okay. But [00:52:50] I saw somebody kind of as soon as they came out the plane, you could see they were [00:52:55] kind of flapping around a bit, and he pulled his, his cord. So [00:53:00] it meant that, um, so he kind of cut away from it. And then I saw him kind [00:53:05] of like flipping in the air. And then just at the last minute, he managed to pull his [00:53:10] reserve, and then just about kind of crash landed into the field. [00:53:15] So we all went to kind of get him. Anyway, he was grounded for six months after that. But it’s [00:53:20] just.

Payman Langroudi: He was injured.

Sam Cope: No, he was fine.

Payman Langroudi: So why was he grounded?

Sam Cope: He [00:53:25] was grounded.

Payman Langroudi: In traumatic stress.

Sam Cope: Um, so the tutors will just say, look, you can’t [00:53:30] parachute now for the next six months just to kind of get your head straight. It’s almost like after a poker [00:53:35] game when you lose and they say, right, you need to like have like five days out now. Yeah. But [00:53:40] yeah, the same way. But yeah. Did you just.

Payman Langroudi: Carry on jumping out of planes when you saw that, [00:53:45] did that not scare you to not do it anymore or.

Sam Cope: Um, no, [00:53:50] it didn’t, because I just thought it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Not gonna happen to me.

Sam Cope: Yeah. Well, I the [00:53:55] thing is, is that the guys that teach you, they are ex-military, so they kind of teach [00:54:00] you a really regimented profile of what to do. And they’re showing you pictures of what the canopies look like. [00:54:05] And every time you go up, they’ll say, like, Sam, what would you do with this? Sam, what would you do with this? And I’d be like, yeah, cut away. [00:54:10] No, I’d keep that one or I’d wiggle it around or something. So [00:54:15] it was a good it’s a good thing to do as well because you learn like [00:54:20] what’s important to you and like how to manage stress. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, you know what I’m [00:54:25] interested in? Yeah. Like, as an adrenaline junkie, like, do you like motorbikes and [00:54:30] jet skis and, like, everything. That’s adrenaline.

Sam Cope: Yeah. Jet skis. I think my [00:54:35] mum would kill me if I got motorbikes and things, so. I love jet skis, but.

Payman Langroudi: As a [00:54:40] as a adrenaline junkie, it’s. I don’t know whether this is true or not. Yeah. Like, [00:54:45] is it that there was a lot of adrenaline in the system because of whatever reason [00:54:50] as a child? Yeah. And so you’re comfortable with adrenaline with the next man [00:54:55] didn’t have. Yeah. Just let me let me just set an example here. As a child, [00:55:00] there’s a drunk father who’s screaming and shouting, and the kid doesn’t know [00:55:05] how to handle it. Adrenaline. Adrenaline and adrenaline. Now, as an adult, he’s an adrenaline junkie. Is there [00:55:10] such a thing as such a link? Yeah. Number one. And number two. I find, you know the rate [00:55:15] of stuff here. So the rate of stuff changing for me [00:55:20] in a walk just isn’t quick enough. Yeah. I just just [00:55:25] does my head in. It doesn’t. The rhythm of a walk really, really annoys me a lot. Although [00:55:30] on a travelator thing, you know, in the airport that rate. [00:55:35] Yeah. I adore that, like, I could do that all day. I’m still walking, right? I’m still [00:55:40] walking. But stuff’s changing at a different rate. Yeah. And on a bicycle, [00:55:45] I could cycle all day as well. You know, stuff’s changing, but on a walk, it’s changing too slowly for [00:55:50] me. And I wonder whether that’s a similar thing to this adrenaline.

Sam Cope: Yeah. [00:55:55] Yeah. Possibly. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think when I was younger, I mean, my [00:56:00] I remember my friend’s mums didn’t really like me coming round because I’d climb [00:56:05] to like the, I’d climb the tree to the highest branch and they’d be like, oh, where’s Sam? It’s like, oh, he’s [00:56:10] up there. Yeah. And like, yeah. So I think it’s almost like [00:56:15] probably a little bit of nurture. But I reckon nature like I think [00:56:20] I think, yeah, almost just like you.

Payman Langroudi: Haven’t got kids have you.

Sam Cope: No, not at the moment. [00:56:25] No, no.

Payman Langroudi: With kids you’re on the first day the kid’s born. You see, you notice massive difference when you have two. When [00:56:30] you have a second one, the first day you notice, oh my god, totally different child. Like yeah. It’s [00:56:35] like they’ve only been around for one day right? So the nurture hasn’t had much time unless [00:56:40] of course, I don’t know in the tummy maybe.

Sam Cope: Yeah. I suppose just like the different genes that they’ve got. I [00:56:45] mean, me and me and my brother were completely different. Right. But we’re it’s quite nice [00:56:50] because me and my brother were we’re best friends, but we do completely different jobs, [00:56:55] like, I’m. I’m a dentist. He’s a barrister. So what.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of barrister.

Sam Cope: Is he? He does crime and civil. So [00:57:00] I went to see him on one of his cases. Actually. It was really good. It felt like I was on like a drama documentary [00:57:05] or something.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sam Cope: Have you ever seen a court?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Sam Cope: It’s very cool. [00:57:10] I definitely I mean, you can just go in to watch any kind of, um, case [00:57:15] that’s on. It was quite good with him because I’d be in a coffee shop working and he’d say, oh, Sam, like, [00:57:20] get here. This is, this is going to be the good bit. So then I’d get there and then they’d do the, um, [00:57:25] they do the things.

Payman Langroudi: I went to one. My friend had an issue and we [00:57:30] went. The lawyer said, which barrister do you want? Do you want, you know, like a standard one? Or should we get a super duper [00:57:35] one? And we said, all right, how much is it? Whatever. And then we went, we said, let’s get the super duper one. Let’s let’s see what happens. [00:57:40] And we went in. And who’s that person in a court, you know, who’s like, she’s not on either [00:57:45] side. She’s not one of the judges, just the person running everything.

Sam Cope: But the usher.

Payman Langroudi: The usher, someone [00:57:50] like that. She was basically running everything. Yeah, she was one talking more than anyone else. And she was kind of in charge. [00:57:55] Right? And I remember the couple of cases happened before my buddy had to go up and [00:58:00] I could see. Who the hell is this person? Like, she’s in charge here, right? Because she wasn’t a judge. She [00:58:05] wasn’t a lawyer. She was just a person running the show here. Anyway, the barrister steps in [00:58:10] the super duper one and immediately says something to her in legalese, right. That I [00:58:15] didn’t understand what he said, but she turned from, like, running the show to looking [00:58:20] through her notes and like, being cowering down a little bit. Yeah. And I just in that first [00:58:25] sentence, I realised, oh, like the expensive barista knows these tricks, [00:58:30] right?

Sam Cope: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting that they have a they always have a conference [00:58:35] between the judge and the two barristers before. So like before a crime, um, before [00:58:40] something to do with to do with like a criminal case. They’ll say the judge will say, [00:58:45] what do you think? And the barristers will just be like, yeah, he’s definitely done it.

Payman Langroudi: No [00:58:50] way.

Sam Cope: And then sometimes the judge will just say, look, just say, I mean, you know, the prisons are like overrun at [00:58:55] the moment. So sometimes the case that I was told the judge had just said, look, [00:59:00] just, just say to them like, he’s definitely he’ll definitely end up going to prison. This guy, if he’s found guilty [00:59:05] and he’s clearly guilty, but just say he can have a six month suspended sentence and [00:59:10] a fine. So they went back to him and then he they said, oh, I’m really sorry. [00:59:15] But he said he wants to go through with the trial. And the judge was like, what? Because he was [00:59:20] almost definitely guilty. Yeah. But I tell you what, the amount of money that is [00:59:25] wasted on these trials and things is just.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a funny thing, though, because if you admit [00:59:30] it, you get a shorter sentence. But if, let’s say you actually didn’t do it. Yeah. And [00:59:35] there you risk a much longer sentence. Yeah. It’s mad. It’s a mad thing when you [00:59:40] think about it. But what really confused me about the law is how important the lawyer [00:59:45] is. Like, so, like, I always had this sort of idea that the law, you know, the [00:59:50] truth, will out in a legal situation. But the lawyer is the key thing. Yeah. [00:59:55]

Sam Cope: It’s whoever can run the theatre the best, isn’t it? It’s like [01:00:00] whoever can act the best. Yeah. Um, and whoever’s, like, more convincing, too. [01:00:05] So. Yeah. So this trial that ended up going on ended up being [01:00:10] a hung jury. So then they’re having to do the trial again in, like, eight months time. [01:00:15] My brother was like, yeah, I think I’ll get him on the next one because because there’s no way he can keep his story [01:00:20] straight, because he’s clearly lying. But I think it only takes like 1 or 2 people in the jury [01:00:25] just to be adamant that they think that he’s right. And then. Yeah, and then it’s hung and then crazy. [01:00:30]

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about after you [01:00:35] did monarch’s course, you decided you want to be that kind of dentist. [01:00:40] Did you change job then to go find that kind of job that [01:00:45] you.

Sam Cope: So when I, um, when I finished that course, um, [01:00:50] I was working, still working at the dental house, and I was doing some, [01:00:55] uh, I was doing NHS work, and then I was kind of increasing the amount of private work that I was [01:01:00] doing. Just naturally. Just because you’re selling gets better. Yeah. [01:01:05] And then while almost towards the end of the year long course, [01:01:10] um, I was very, very, um, privileged to be asked by monarch [01:01:15] to be his apprentice. Yeah. So then I, um, finished my job [01:01:20] at the Dental house, and then I worked as his apprentice for um for quite a while. [01:01:25] And that was that was amazing. That kind of made me the dentist [01:01:30] that I am today. And it was quite it was quite humbling because I was able and I was [01:01:35] so I was so lucky. And I’m so grateful for that experience because I was able [01:01:40] to see, firstly, a very charismatic person and a [01:01:45] very experienced dentist teach. And I got to be able to see his work, but [01:01:50] also seeing lots of different dentists, like lots and lots of [01:01:55] cohorts of people. Yeah. Um, and how, what their skills like. And you [01:02:00] do realise when you’re on those courses because I always thought to myself like, oh, I don’t think I’m [01:02:05] that good a dentist. I don’t think I’m cutting the crowns as like perfect as everybody else. But [01:02:10] you realise like, you know, even the really experienced dentists can’t cut crowns [01:02:15] really, really well and can’t do, like, really good dentistry [01:02:20] all the time. So it was very good to see, and it was really nice [01:02:25] to be able to help people and you could see their progression and things. And I think, um, [01:02:30] yeah, that was a fantastic experience. And also when the [01:02:35] lectures were going on, we’d be messing around with composite and practising and doing composite [01:02:40] veneers and fillings and things like that.

Payman Langroudi: So I think, I think repetition is such a massive thing.

Sam Cope: Huge. [01:02:45]

Payman Langroudi: Such a massive, you know, I saw mini smile makeover. I’m still learning, you know. Still I must have [01:02:50] watched it 80, 90 times, right. Still still learning.

Sam Cope: Yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And repetition [01:02:55] people just underestimate the value of repetition. And you know, you saw his content however [01:03:00] many times. But you’re also right explaining teaching is one of the best ways of learning, isn’t [01:03:05] it?

Sam Cope: 100%.

Payman Langroudi: You have to understand it yourself very well, and you learn from the questions [01:03:10] that people, people ask. So then you were doing more of this work then what happened [01:03:15] next?

Sam Cope: Um, so then I kind of wanted to create [01:03:20] my own brand and I was going to move back to Liverpool. So then I [01:03:25] left the practice with monarch, and then I went to Liverpool and [01:03:30] I wanted to get a private job, but I ended up working kind of almost five [01:03:35] days in five different practices, which I definitely wouldn’t recommend to anyone, [01:03:40] but it was very it was an incredible experience because I was working at Roderick’s, [01:03:45] my dentist, um, and then a couple of other private [01:03:50] practices as well. And that was that was amazing because I was able. [01:03:55]

Payman Langroudi: To see.

Sam Cope: Like, yeah, how loads of different practices run, what works, [01:04:00] what doesn’t work, and the importance, like the importance of having a nurse [01:04:05] like I was, I had like two suitcases of all my stuff, like with, [01:04:10] um, computers and equipment and composite and everything, because I wanted to still try and keep [01:04:15] Consistent, so I spent a lot of money on my own things to be able to deliver [01:04:20] kind of the quality of dentistry that I wanted to give and I wasn’t happy with, like using [01:04:25] different materials and different places. So, so yeah, so I used to [01:04:30] so I did that for a while. And then I also whilst I was at one of the practices, there were a couple of [01:04:35] dentists that were relatively newly qualified. So I thought, well that’d be a good opportunity [01:04:40] to kind of help them. Yeah. So I on like Wednesday nights or something, I just [01:04:45] I had a couple of phantom heads. So like showed them how to do different composites and like help [01:04:50] them improve their kind of skills and things. And that was that was really rewarding.

Payman Langroudi: Two [01:04:55] things. What were lessons you learned from those five practices or from all the ones you worked [01:05:00] because you’ve worked in quite a few now? Yeah, good and bad. What would you say? [01:05:05] Like, are you are you thinking of starting your own practice one day? Maybe.

Sam Cope: Uh, I, [01:05:10] I’ve seen how all these practices run, and I think that I’m quite happy [01:05:15] being being an associate for now.

Payman Langroudi: For now. For now, don’t rule it out from [01:05:20] the associate perspective. Then what things have you seen that have been like? What do you think [01:05:25] best practice that you know you’ve learned from the corporate setting? I mean, you can learn a lot from my dentist. [01:05:30] You know, I’m involved with them. It’s an impressive company, man. It’s an impressive [01:05:35] company to be able to pull off what they’ve pulled off across 600 sites. 600? [01:05:40]

Sam Cope: Yeah. Crazy.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like, you’ve got four practices and nightmare is [01:05:45] 600. Yeah.

Sam Cope: Yeah. Unbelievable. I mean, yeah I thought yeah, they’ve [01:05:50] they’ve all got good points and they’ve all got some bad points as well.

Payman Langroudi: A few, a few [01:05:55] gems that you can come up with.

Sam Cope: Um I think as a practice, [01:06:00] I think the most important thing is kind of your, your team. [01:06:05] So I think like being in a practice where you’ve got other people that are there that [01:06:10] you can kind of learn and bounce ideas off is really important. Um, I think [01:06:15] having a practice manager as well, that’s really kind and nice and wants [01:06:20] every everything to work works really well. It’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Tough role. It’s a tough role. Practice [01:06:25] manager is a tough role.

Sam Cope: And also, um, what I’ve learned is you [01:06:30] want to try and stay friendly with every member of the team, and you want to be [01:06:35] humble with everybody, and you should never. I think most, [01:06:40] most important person to treat as nicely as you possibly can and with respect, is [01:06:45] your nurse there on not very much money and they’re helping you out all the time. And [01:06:50] the more you can help them, the more they’ll help you.

Payman Langroudi: Not to mention, not to mention I really [01:06:55] think this. I mean, I think respecting your nurse is a massive. Respecting the person you’re spending the whole day with [01:07:00] is an important thing by itself. Oh, yeah. An aim in itself. But [01:07:05] respecting your nurse in public. So respecting your nurse in front of your patient [01:07:10] Mhm. Wins you massive points with your patient 100%. People don’t realise that [01:07:15] nuance. You know it’s a nuance. But some, some people don’t realise that nuance. [01:07:20] And letting your nurse take a bit more responsibility than she might normally. Deciding [01:07:25] making certain decisions, whatever those decisions are, makes them feel great. [01:07:30] But so in the I can’t imagine any of the ones you’ve worked with, the vibe is more [01:07:35] friendly than Love Teeth. Is it because Love Teeth is a real good vibe [01:07:40] in there? I don’t know. I’ve done work there.

Sam Cope: Yeah, I found that working at all of the practices [01:07:45] working at Love Teeth is just such a breath of fresh air, because [01:07:50] really, everything just runs like a really well-oiled machine. [01:07:55] Like when I was at different practices, you know, I’d have some nurses that were great, [01:08:00] some nurses that needed a lot of input and like, a lot of help. The nurses [01:08:05] that love teeth are unbelievable. They, you know, they’re scanning for me [01:08:10] the really attentive and they and they almost want to learn about how you’re doing stuff [01:08:15] and love that I, you know, after a couple of months with the nurse, my nurses, [01:08:20] she’s called Shea and she’s fantastic. You know, I, [01:08:25] I help her out. And I found this really works as a good kind of hack. So in [01:08:30] the morning, my commute on the train, I will look through all of my patients [01:08:35] so I know what I’m doing. And I’ll leave a little note to say what we’re doing with the nurse, just [01:08:40] so that she can prepare everything so that it’s not stressful. And I’ll say like, you know, this could be a [01:08:45] root canal, or it could be an extraction to get things out for both. And then I do like a [01:08:50] little handover in.

Payman Langroudi: The morning on the.

Sam Cope: So I have Dental. So I just place it on [01:08:55] the. Yeah I just place it on the software. Yeah. I think that’s a real game changer. And it really helps [01:09:00] to kind of rapport with the nurse and when things are running really smoothly because you’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Helped her out stressed. That’s what you’re saying right? [01:09:05]

Sam Cope: Yeah. And you’re not stressing because you know everything that’s going on in the day. The nurse knows what’s going on [01:09:10] in the day. So it means that when you do have a bit of time, you can have a bit of chit chat and a laugh and, you know, you can ask them [01:09:15] about their day. It’s like, even for Christmas, I know she had, um, three children, [01:09:20] so I got all I’ve never met them, but I got them. She was telling me a bit about them and what [01:09:25] they like throughout the year. So it was. I bought them all gifts and things [01:09:30] and it’s so important. It’s just the little things that that can really help. And I think when [01:09:35] you’re at these practices learning everybody’s name, learning, you know, it’s like the Dale Carnegie thing. [01:09:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Learn a little bit about them. And then, you know, that helps you build rapport. The other thing [01:09:45] is when I was doing my foundation training, um, I [01:09:50] had a really good mentor, actually, Jane Willett in Glenside practice, um, in [01:09:55] the Wirral. And she had me working as a nurse [01:10:00] for a bit, and she had me working as the receptionist. The receptionist was by far the hardest job because [01:10:05] even though you’re a dentist, Patients will see you as a receptionist and treat you terribly and [01:10:10] you realise that, yeah, like they’re really like quite they can be really [01:10:15] quite cruel to you. And sometimes it’s just because I don’t know if you’ve read The Chimp Paradox, but [01:10:20] it’s like they’re almost like expressing their chimp.

Payman Langroudi: Their inner chimp.

Sam Cope: Exactly. [01:10:25] And then they’re going into the surgery and then they’re lovely to the dentist. And it’s like, because you’ve taken it [01:10:30] all. So I think understanding that the receptionists are going through that and then really helping [01:10:35] them as well and making sure that they’re okay, or at lunchtime just going to buy them some chocolates [01:10:40] or, um, making, you know, and checking in on them every so often as well really helps. But [01:10:45] being at Love Teeth has been amazing because the receptionists that I’ve got at Sutton are [01:10:50] so lovely that I’ve got my own treatment coordinator, so that makes everything so [01:10:55] much easier as well. So I don’t have to think because.

Payman Langroudi: The treatment coordinator will sort of sell the treatment [01:11:00] plan. Is that is that what she does?

Sam Cope: So I will say with my most of [01:11:05] my patient consults. They will come in. I will tell them about all the treatments that, um, [01:11:10] that are available for them, specific to them. And then I’ll go through the price and then [01:11:15] they’ll see the treatment coordinator who will go through their treatment plan, the finance, [01:11:20] the, um, and the things that, you know, things that push [01:11:25] it over the line. Yeah. And then also follows the patients up, and then we’ll let me know if they’ve gone [01:11:30] ahead with X, Y and Z. And then they’ll also kind of check in on the patients and make sure they’re [01:11:35] okay. They’re worth their weight in gold. Really. So good.

Payman Langroudi: And patients are coming [01:11:40] in I guess some are coming in from word of mouth now because you’ve been there a little [01:11:45] while, but otherwise coming in from marketing is that.

Sam Cope: Yeah. I mean, Canal [01:11:50] invests so much money into his marketing. Um, so a lot of patients come through [01:11:55] that just through the reputation of love teeth and then [01:12:00] also a bit through my Instagram. I made [01:12:05] my own smile book too. So I have that in reception, which shows you [01:12:10] all the kind of before and afters. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? That’s different.

Sam Cope: Yeah, it’s really good, actually. [01:12:15] It’s quite fun to make. It just makes you just make it through photo box or something. But it shows them all the before [01:12:20] and after. So when people are coming in for their hygiene appointments, they’ll look at the book and they’ll be like, oh, actually, yeah, I’d like [01:12:25] to book in for a consultation with Sam.

Payman Langroudi: In a way, it’s kind of like retro Step. Yeah. [01:12:30] It works. You know, it’s an actual book with your picture, I guess, of your face on [01:12:35] the front cover or something. Not quite.

Sam Cope: But. Yeah, I just have some [01:12:40] teeth and then I’ll have, like, information about me and then before and afters and different smile makeovers [01:12:45] that we’ve done and things. And it just works. It works really well.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, obviously, [01:12:50] you know, be nice to people, do great dentistry obviously that [01:12:55] that helps, you know, improve your reputation and all that. Are there any tactics, though, [01:13:00] that you’ve learned along the way in order to get people to [01:13:05] refer family and friends to you, or post on the internet for you [01:13:10] or whatever.

Sam Cope: Yeah, I mean, I think a good, a good thing is [01:13:15] once you finished kind of a smile makeover or something for someone and and if they’re [01:13:20] happy, um, then it’s asking them to. [01:13:25] I usually get a photo with them, and then I usually say, it would be great if you could post it on your [01:13:30] social media. Yeah. And then they can do that.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t strike me. You strike me as the [01:13:35] kind of kid who who hates saying that to someone, and yet you’re saying it and they’re doing it [01:13:40] because I see all the ones with the enlightened bags. Yeah, yeah. You’re doing it a lot. Yeah. People are [01:13:45] posting, your patients are posting on your behalf, and you’re posting on your patients behalf a [01:13:50] lot. Do you how do you get how did you get over the sort of the bump of asking that [01:13:55] question in the first place? Because a lot of people find difficulty asking that question?

Sam Cope: Well, with I mean, [01:14:00] Canal has been a great mentor. And he just said to me, look, I’m going to be marketing [01:14:05] you and I’ve got your back. But he said that if you’re doing this as well, you [01:14:10] know, it really, really helps. And the first couple of times, yeah, I’m not going to lie, it’s awkward. But [01:14:15] patients like it. You usually say to patients, you know, oh, it’d be lovely to get a picture with you [01:14:20] for social media. And they’re like, oh yeah, actually, yeah, that’s great. And I mean, I [01:14:25] kind of slacked a bit over Christmas in terms of posting. And then I had a patient [01:14:30] come in and they were saying, oh, you didn’t post my picture with me. And I was like, don’t worry, [01:14:35] I’m I’m getting around to it.

Payman Langroudi: I think he said something about he’s very good at this. Yeah. And he said [01:14:40] something about, uh, getting through to the, the patients feel [01:14:45] like if you tell them, is it okay if I put a picture of this on, on Insta, the patient feels like he [01:14:50] must have done a great job because he’s proud of his work. He wants to put it out there. Yeah, yeah. And so [01:14:55] that makes patients feel good. And then. And then exactly what you said, he said a friend of a patient said, why [01:15:00] didn’t you post mine? Weren’t you happy with the way mine came out? Yeah, yeah. And then that sort of [01:15:05] tweaked something in his head that made him then ask everyone, you know, it’s an interesting.

Sam Cope: Yeah, [01:15:10] I think it’s asking. Asking everyone and then posting their pictures and stuff. I think it’s really good [01:15:15] and it really does. Yeah. And then you find that they [01:15:20] come back and you’ve built like a really good rapport with them, and then you find that they’ll [01:15:25] say to you, oh, I’ve got a family friend or something like that, that, that [01:15:30] would really like it. And then I think at that point you should say, oh, well, great, [01:15:35] well give me the Instagram and I’ll give them a message or give me their number and I’ll [01:15:40] give them a text or something. Um, yeah, I think, I think in this [01:15:45] kind of day and age, it’s really nice to have like a personal connection with [01:15:50] your patients because they’ll respect you. But also, um, a patient [01:15:55] people don’t sue people that they like. So even if like, you know, sometimes [01:16:00] things can, can go wrong. It’s just the nature of the world, isn’t it? But [01:16:05] if you’ve got a really good relationship with your patient, then you know you can overcome it and then [01:16:10] you can you can help them. But I think just being kind of a genuine person. [01:16:15] So say like, you know, a patient comes back two months later, the, you know, it’s guaranteed for a [01:16:20] month or something, say the composite, just for example. And they say, look, I [01:16:25] was using my retainer and then I took it out and it chipped or something, you know, is there anything you can do? I [01:16:30] think, you know, just being kind to them and just saying like, yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, I’m happy to fix it [01:16:35] and say, you know what, I’ll fix it for free. But it’d be lovely if you gave us a Google review about it.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? [01:16:40]

Sam Cope: And then, you know, and then you’ve, you’ve then built rapport.

Payman Langroudi: So many moments [01:16:45] like that as a dentist, so many little moments of of highs with patients that [01:16:50] if you then do mention this sort of thing, it does make sense. But the other thing I was thinking was It’s [01:16:55] kind of much more high risk treating patients [01:17:00] from marketing than it is treating existing patients of a practice. [01:17:05] In theory, because someone comes in from a non-profit, does all sorts [01:17:10] of campaigns for for Kunal, but someone comes in from a Google campaign, let’s say, yeah, [01:17:15] you’ve never met this person. They come in and then I know how slick that practice is. [01:17:20] They kind of walk out with a treatment plan. First visit. Yeah. [01:17:25] Then you’ve got to execute that plan. Having met this person once or twice. [01:17:30] Right. And then it’s normally, you know, it could be a big plan. And so [01:17:35] that you guys have to accelerate rapport so [01:17:40] that these situations don’t go wrong because something’s going to go [01:17:45] wrong during treatment. You know, like you just said, you never we’re never 100% happy with our work. [01:17:50] There’s always gonna be something that could have been done a bit better. And, you know, someone can [01:17:55] pick up on that thing. Now, if you have if you’ve known the patient for years, this is never going to happen. But if you’ve just [01:18:00] met the person, you need to accelerate rapport. So I would in your situation, have you heard of the people who contact [01:18:05] the patient before they come in?

Sam Cope: Do I speak to them? Do you mean or. [01:18:10]

Payman Langroudi: Um, it’s an interesting thing.

Sam Cope: Yeah, yeah. I mean, maybe.

Payman Langroudi: A DM or a call [01:18:15] to.

Sam Cope: See what they like.

Payman Langroudi: No, no. As in to build rapport from the beginning. Yeah. You’re [01:18:20] coming on Tuesday. I’m just calling to see if you had any questions before you come in. It’s a really interesting [01:18:25] thing.

Sam Cope: Yeah, that is a good way of doing it, I find, because a lot of people that come in for [01:18:30] these big treatment plans, they’ll usually need some sort of early work. [01:18:35] Early work done before.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s when you build it.

Sam Cope: And also through the whitening as well.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [01:18:40]

Sam Cope: I find that say if somebody wants composite veneers they’ve already got straight teeth or something. [01:18:45] I get them in. I do do the whitening and then I do the trial smile usually [01:18:50] before. And that’s for composite or. Porcelain? Yeah. Um, and then [01:18:55] it’s at that stage as well that you can gauge kind of what patient they are and whether you can meet their [01:19:00] expectations. And sometimes it’s it’s always a hard conversation to have. But I’ve had it a [01:19:05] couple of times where I’ve said, look, I mean, this is the kind of work that I do, you know, [01:19:10] and I’ll show them pictures before and afters, and then I’ll show them kind of what they want. And if they [01:19:15] sound like their goals are just or their expectations are far [01:19:20] too high, you know, I’ll kind of bring them back down to earth. But if they’re not kind of playing ball, [01:19:25] your.

Payman Langroudi: Spidey sense says no.

Sam Cope: Yeah. Then I’ll say to them, look, I just don’t. I’ll [01:19:30] just say to them, look, I’m a bit worried that I’m not going to be able to meet your expectations, [01:19:35] and maybe it’s best seeking another dentist that perhaps can. [01:19:40] And I think a lot of patients do actually respect that. I mean, and also I’d much rather [01:19:45] do that than have the problems of then that can come in the future. [01:19:50]

Payman Langroudi: Talking of problems, let’s get let’s get to the darker part of [01:19:55] the pod. We like to talk about clinical errors. I [01:20:00] don’t want to just limit it to clinical errors. I kind of like these sort of errors as well. Yeah. Like expectation [01:20:05] errors management errors. Mhm. But so that [01:20:10] you know we can all learn from each others. What comes to mind when I say clinical [01:20:15] errors.

Sam Cope: So when I finished, when I finished monarchs courses [01:20:20] and was finished as an apprentice and things you do have a lot of confidence and obviously [01:20:25] you’re highly skilled like you know how to use.

Payman Langroudi: Companies and you’ve got the same pay check [01:20:30] whatever you did. Is that what The Apprentice means?

Sam Cope: Yeah, you’re you’re you’re salaried and [01:20:35] the job role is really to shadow monarch as he’s doing his dentistry. [01:20:40] You’ll be working in his clinic and doing some of the, um, some of the work there, too. [01:20:45] And then you’ll also be Helping other [01:20:50] students on all of the courses, which run like nearly five days a week. So [01:20:55] it’s it’s intense. It’s a great I mean, it’s an unbelievable opportunity. But [01:21:00] once I’d finished. Once I’d finished that, I felt like my skills had hugely [01:21:05] accelerated, just in terms of like placement of composite, how it works, and [01:21:10] also when you’re teaching on a totally composite course, which you’ll know from the mini Smile makeover [01:21:15] course, um, you know, you’d finish a day and you fixed [01:21:20] like 50 or 60 mistakes, so it’s almost like you’ve done 50 or 60 cases.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. [01:21:25]

Sam Cope: Yeah. So and you’re doing that nearly every day. So you’re just constantly fixing things for [01:21:30] people. And then when, when these things happen in clinic then you’re like, oh okay, I’ll fix it [01:21:35] this way. So you do come out very confident. Yeah. What you don’t get taught on a lot of courses [01:21:40] is when somebody already has composite veneers, and then you’re kind of, um, [01:21:45] treating them So my kind of clinical, [01:21:50] um, the time that I wouldn’t really call it a failure, [01:21:55] but it’s more where the, the moment where I’ve changed my practice the [01:22:00] most was when I had a patient. They came in with composite veneers [01:22:05] already. They were looking they think they’d been done a couple of years before, but they were looking pretty. [01:22:10] Um.

Payman Langroudi: It’s unforgiving. It’s an unforgiving material.

Sam Cope: It is the most [01:22:15] unforgiving material. You leave one air void or something, one tiny air void, and you’ll [01:22:20] see it a year later. Stained to hell. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Brown.

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Sam Cope: Yeah. [01:22:25] It looks horrible. Um, so, anyway, wanted them refreshed. So [01:22:30] the, um, the process that I would do at the time is take took [01:22:35] off the composite, placed the composite back on, and then they have a week in the composite to kind [01:22:40] of like figure out whether they liked it, whether they didn’t like it. And after a week [01:22:45] really happy. Like felt great. Added a little bit of composite to [01:22:50] a couple of areas, polished, did the final polish and then had [01:22:55] a six month follow up. Was really happy. Left a really good google review. Didn’t hear anything then for [01:23:00] about another six months or something. And then after that six months, [01:23:05] um, I’d heard and I was leaving the practice as well. [01:23:10] I’d heard that they’d gone to a few other dentists, [01:23:15] and they’d always wanted their teeth longer, and I had made them [01:23:20] long enough or something. And I was thinking to myself, well, I’ve done everything as I was supposed to do. [01:23:25] They’ve had the they’ve almost had their kind of trial smile where they’ve seen what the composite [01:23:30] is going to look like and things. So you know what can possibly be wrong anyway, there wasn’t really [01:23:35] too much reasoning with the patient, so I ended up giving them the money back [01:23:40] for the 40th that they wanted longer.

Sam Cope: So then I kind of reflected on the [01:23:45] whole situation and thought, how can I prevent that from happening again? And [01:23:50] the way that I prevent it now is all of my composite veneers [01:23:55] that I do. Any big cases of composite veneers, say four, six, eight. I do, [01:24:00] um, I injection mould, and the reason why I do it that way is because I can. [01:24:05] I know that I can do it predictably, and it means that the patient gets a trial [01:24:10] smile. They can see exactly what it’s going to look like. They take photos. You can even have [01:24:15] them in the trial. Smile for a bit for a week or something so they can see what it’s like. And then once they’ve [01:24:20] approved it, then we’ll place the composite. Then we’ll do a final review. So it adds almost an extra layer. [01:24:25] And it means then that you get the adequate thickness, some [01:24:30] improved strength compared to kind of placing the composite on using wetting resin. You’ve just [01:24:35] got everything on in one go. And then yeah, I found my [01:24:40] um, my cases have of massively improved. And I found that [01:24:45] every you know, most people are really happy with what they’ve got and say before [01:24:50] with my edge bonding, I’ll usually do that freehand, but I will always do a mock up [01:24:55] to show them what it’ll look like before even even edge bonding, and then to see [01:25:00] whether they’re happy with it.

Sam Cope: And then if they are happy, then great. I know I can do probably a lot better [01:25:05] than my little quick mock up. Yeah, but if they’re not happy, then I’ll say, look, I don’t know whether I [01:25:10] can meet your expectations, which is fair, I think. And then, [01:25:15] um, and then. Yeah. And then they can either, you know, go somewhere else or or not [01:25:20] go ahead if they don’t want to. And with the trial smile, I usually charge, say 499 [01:25:25] for the trial smile. And I’ll say to them, look, if you really don’t like it, you know, you’ve not invested [01:25:30] a huge amount of money and this isn’t going to go anywhere. Um, but then if you, [01:25:35] if you do like it, then yeah, then we can go ahead with the, with the composite and kind of go from there. [01:25:40] And I found that just works so much better.

Payman Langroudi: And the the basics of the injection moulding [01:25:45] technique that you use.

Sam Cope: So I use two stents and [01:25:50] then we mock up every other tooth and then every tooth. [01:25:55] And then we will place PTFE tape over [01:26:00] each bond. Place the composite in um [01:26:05] into each into each one, kind of do a bit of a clean up and [01:26:10] then we’ll place the next one in and then um, and then just do a bit of a clean up. And [01:26:15] I’ve just found the cleanup from that is really much better. Much better.

Payman Langroudi: So, [01:26:20] you know, are you not actually you’re compression moulding rather than impression injection moulding. [01:26:25]

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Where you place the composite around where it should be. And then put the.

Sam Cope: Uh, [01:26:30] put the missile in over the top and then there’ll be a hole in the incisal and then just inject [01:26:35] it. But I use heated composites. So I used to use Venus. Now I use Empress. Yeah, Yeah. So [01:26:40] I find that I find that works so much better. And I think it’s really important [01:26:45] to, before you do any injection moulding to be able to do freehand [01:26:50] first because, you know, if mistakes. Mistakes can happen voids. [01:26:55]

Payman Langroudi: You need to know how to do both.

Sam Cope: You need to know how to do both.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. There are times. There are times where freehand is important [01:27:00] to do right. The situations, many situations that you’ll have to do it in freehand. And there’s many [01:27:05] situations that would be good if it was predictability was completely there. And you can, you know, [01:27:10] it’s like a little magic trick, isn’t it? I could show you, show you before, before you actually do it, what it’s going to look like, [01:27:15] which is beautiful.

Sam Cope: It’s so important to do as many kind of composite courses as you [01:27:20] can.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sam Cope: Monarchs totally. Composite course is great, but you’ll learn so much more [01:27:25] from doing different. Like Depeche Palmer’s course mini Smile makeover, you learn so many other [01:27:30] different skills and you’ll think, actually, I can do this differently and this is faster, or this works [01:27:35] better for me.

Payman Langroudi: It’s my pet hate. Yeah, we get a call, people say, hey, sell it to me on the phone, [01:27:40] you know? And you’re like, what do you mean? Well, I’m picking between this one and that one. Which [01:27:45] 1 a.m. I going to go to? And and you’re, you know, we I, we talk about [01:27:50] it and we, we give them we give them what they want. But in in your head, you’re thinking if [01:27:55] you were at all serious, you’d be doing all of them.

Sam Cope: Yeah, you should be doing all of them. Really.

Payman Langroudi: You know. [01:28:00]

Sam Cope: Because this is what you want to do.

Payman Langroudi: Let alone this one or that one. There’s about seven of them. You do them all. [01:28:05] You know, if you want, if you want to be that person, you want to learn something really well. And then let’s face [01:28:10] it, like we always say on MSM, it’s the beginning. It’s not the end, right? It’s the practising [01:28:15] is way more important than going on any courses.

Sam Cope: And it’s like, you know, when [01:28:20] between patients, I would usually be messing around with composite and like placing like composite [01:28:25] veneers over stuff. Yeah. Because it is true. Like the only way you get to the top [01:28:30] or to be the best dentist that you can be, is just through practice [01:28:35] and hard work.

Payman Langroudi: It was funny. The pitch was was saying, yeah, when I do an [01:28:40] examination and, you know, there’s really nothing that needs doing. A lot of times my eyes are just going over [01:28:45] the teeth and I’m just looking at tooth morphology.

Sam Cope: Yeah, yeah, [01:28:50] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And it was, it was so funny because I was staring at someone else, looking [01:28:55] at the patient, like, just in horror at this idea that that’s what he does. [01:29:00]

Sam Cope: Yeah. God, it’s so important. It’s so important just to understand, like, the line angles [01:29:05] and things.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And, you know, a lot of courses, they start with drawing the teeth. And there’s good reason [01:29:10] for that. There is good reason for that. If you can draw it first. Yeah.

Sam Cope: Then you’re making [01:29:15] it out of Play-Doh or something like that as well as a good one. Um, have.

Payman Langroudi: You have you moved [01:29:20] on to, you know, um, porcelain [01:29:25] work, big cases with porcelain. Are you very much [01:29:30] in the minimally invasive area?

Sam Cope: Yeah, I do porcelain cases just because composite [01:29:35] doesn’t work, which is.

Payman Langroudi: Known more for composite, is that is that the way it is? You’re more known [01:29:40] for composite?

Sam Cope: Yeah, I do more I do a lot more composite cases for sure. [01:29:45] But there are I mean I’ve got like 3 or 4 porcelain cases, big [01:29:50] porcelain cases on the go at the moment. And that’s mainly just because you [01:29:55] after a while of doing composite and you’re seeing your cases coming back, you see the people that [01:30:00] are good composite cases and you see the people that are not good composite cases. [01:30:05] So a good determinant I think is firstly like wear on the teeth is important. [01:30:10] And another, another good determinant is when they come in for that first [01:30:15] kind of consult, look at the staining on their natural teeth. Because when they have composite that’s going [01:30:20] to be ten times worse.

Payman Langroudi: So true.

Sam Cope: So if you you know, smoking is a big [01:30:25] one. If they’re smoking and they’ve I did a really lovely composite case. And [01:30:30] she came back maybe about three weeks later and the staining [01:30:35] was just ridiculous. Mainly just over the front 40th, which you can imagine [01:30:40] is going to be the worst with smoking.

Payman Langroudi: And definitely staining is the biggest issue with composite, right? That [01:30:45] you know, okay, you talk about chipping. Yeah, true. But staining tends to be the first [01:30:50] failure.

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um and so that’s why, you know it gets gets to me man. People [01:30:55] people don’t charge enough for composite veneers. You know it’s it’s hard work. It’s really hard getting [01:31:00] it right.

Sam Cope: And I say to P I say to patients, look the composites are like, you know, if you [01:31:05] buy a pair of shoes, you can wreck them around and have them last hardly [01:31:10] any time. But if you’re kind of polishing them every month and you’re careful with how you use them, you can make [01:31:15] them last years. So with your composite veneers, you know, obviously brush floss is normal. [01:31:20] But come back to see us for, you know, your composite polishing for [01:31:25] hygiene appointments so that we can see, you know, you might be able to see a little void or something [01:31:30] after, you know, six months. Once it’s stained a bit and you can just quickly fill that. And [01:31:35] they last so much longer if they’re if they’re regularly maintained.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, I would say bleach your composites. [01:31:40]

Sam Cope: Bleach composites. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah that is a great way to do it. And also you because [01:31:45] the biggest thing is getting stains kind of in between. And when you when you do bleach them it just [01:31:50] gets eliminates all of the stains. It’s so good.

Payman Langroudi: I’d say one day a month [01:31:55] for all patients after bonding. Yeah, definitely. Or longer? [01:32:00] Two days a month if you want to be really super duper. But yeah, but just to number one, what [01:32:05] you said to to clean them up if they haven’t been done before or [01:32:10] number two, prevent the stain from coming in the first place.

Sam Cope: Yeah, I do recommend that. And I have kind of [01:32:15] a composite aftercare form that I give all the patients. So I’m happy for this to be like a link [01:32:20] or something on the podcast if people want it. But I think it’s it’s definitely a really good thing. [01:32:25] And I also, um, I also after each consultation, I’ll write a [01:32:30] kind of summary of everything that we’ve talked about. And then at the end of, um, the big [01:32:35] treatment plans, I almost summarise it and then give them all the aftercare forms, and then [01:32:40] they usually do come back for those regular check-ups, but also kind of reinforcing it into saying that, [01:32:45] you know, composites are not going to last forever. I usually say it’s almost impossible to how long [01:32:50] it can last. I’ve seen them last hardly any time because of staining, and [01:32:55] I’ve seen them last like years and years, and they look almost like [01:33:00] the first day I placed them using exactly the same composite, exactly the same techniques, but it’s just about how [01:33:05] the person looks after them in their mouth.

Payman Langroudi: I think the oldest picture I’ve seen of Depeche is 12 years, [01:33:10] um, unpolished, unreported, his, you know, with microfilm. The whole [01:33:15] thing is the idea of not having to but but also for the teaching purposes. He wants to see what happens. [01:33:20]

Sam Cope: Um, yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then, buddy, he’s got [01:33:25] these 20 year composites. But, um, I feel like that was a long time ago that [01:33:30] I saw that picture.

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Amazing, man. I [01:33:35] mean, I’m learning a lot from you. I would like to get one more, like, [01:33:40] nugget of information around successfully carrying off this [01:33:45] kind of practice that you’re carrying off now. I mean, okay, you said you said you [01:33:50] said what you said. Um, but, you know, I talk to a lot of young [01:33:55] dentists, right? And a lot of them want to be you. A lot of them want to get to be you. [01:34:00] The minimally invasive, you know, AB, ABC or whatever you guys call it ABC, the minimally [01:34:05] invasive AB type dentist. And my advice often [01:34:10] is you can be that guy. You can be so many other types. [01:34:15] Yeah. Why do you want to be that guy? Right. And it is pleasurable. You know, I find wants [01:34:20] more pleasurable than needs in a way. There’s an honesty to it [01:34:25] that I like. Um, there’s there’s a sort of, uh, people want to [01:34:30] be there rather than need to be there. There’s a there’s a joy to it. Mhm. Um, [01:34:35] as well. But advice wise, someone wants to be you because a lot [01:34:40] of the youngsters want to be you. Should they jump in and do it. Should [01:34:45] they look at other things. And if they want to do it what should they do first?

Sam Cope: Yeah, I think [01:34:50] it’s very glamorous in terms of you’re almost like. [01:34:55] It seems to be what everybody wants to do at the moment that [01:35:00] a line bleach composite. But you are it is it is difficult because [01:35:05] even though you know the NHS work and things that you do is I found really difficult. [01:35:10] And that’s why I decided to kind of go into this route.

Payman Langroudi: You say it’s glamorous, right? The glamorous [01:35:15] side of it is a pain in the arse itself.

Sam Cope: It is a pain.

Payman Langroudi: Because it’s glamorous. Because it’s on Instagram. [01:35:20]

Sam Cope: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And that means you have to do Instagram, which you could be spending your time doing [01:35:25] other things, learning other things for the sake of the argument. Right?

Sam Cope: Yeah. And dealing with patients [01:35:30] as well is hard.

Payman Langroudi: More difficult patients. Right.

Sam Cope: More difficult. Yeah. The [01:35:35] patients are more difficult. And also it’s the, um, patients expectations especially [01:35:40] I found in treatment.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sam Cope: They get yeah, definitely. They definitely do change [01:35:45] my treatment. But also, um, I found in London, patient expectations are [01:35:50] sky high. And it’s, you know, being able to deliver that kind of success. [01:35:55] And you see people will look at Instagram and say, oh, I want my teeth to look like this, [01:36:00] which is a dentist, maybe up north or something. But you’ve got to think that [01:36:05] all of the all of these like successful cases that you see where you’ve got these immaculate [01:36:10] composites, they’ve been followed previously by failures and things. So I think, [01:36:15] I think the most important thing, if you want to get to kind of this position, is just [01:36:20] to not be fazed by, don’t let your failures put you down. [01:36:25] But learn from them and yeah, and grow that way and practice [01:36:30] as much as you possibly can. Um, so any time a patient doesn’t turn up, [01:36:35] you should be looking at, you know, um, placing some composite veneers on some [01:36:40] plastic teeth or just getting the handling of the composite so that when you’re then doing a big case, then you can [01:36:45] do it. Um, but repetition and being okay with failure is [01:36:50] like, is really important because you’ll learn from it. And the great thing about composite is it is it is, [01:36:55] uh, it’s an unforgiving material in terms of the staining, etc., but it’s also a forgiving material [01:37:00] in the fact that you haven’t damaged any of the teeth.

Payman Langroudi: Very versatile. Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Sam Cope: It’s, [01:37:05] you know, you can. And also it’s not like porcelain veneers when once they’re placed it’s it’s harder [01:37:10] to kind of change them. You can change the composite or replace them or refresh them and [01:37:15] things too.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s an interesting thing. Imagine this young dentist, right. Could be you [01:37:20] or could be an endodontist. Yeah, totally different in many ways, [01:37:25] right? Number one, Endodontist doesn’t have to sell anything to anyone. Yeah, yeah. [01:37:30] That’s true. And pressure of sales is hard. It’s a hard thing. It’s hard to enlighten. I [01:37:35] see it in my sales team, you know. It’s tiring. Tiring?

Sam Cope: Oh, yeah?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Pressure of sales. [01:37:40] You haven’t got that as an endodontist. You haven’t got any exacting standards. As long as [01:37:45] it doesn’t hurt. Yeah, yeah. As an endodontist. But it’s not thought of [01:37:50] as a glamorous. By the way. Loads of money. You can make loads of money as an endodontist. [01:37:55]

Sam Cope: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. It’s one of the, one of the best ways of making a lot of money. Um, [01:38:00] in a kind of a predictable way. Um, totally opposites, [01:38:05] right? All things are opposites in it. But both great ways of going. [01:38:10] But one seems glamorous what you’re doing. And if you tell [01:38:15] most young dentists endo because most of them haven’t done many. They go, oh no, no, I don’t want [01:38:20] to do the.

Sam Cope: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting, isn’t it?

Sam Cope: Yeah. You should try it. You really. I mean, [01:38:25] in the different practices that you’re at, you’ll have sometimes that the practice that you’re [01:38:30] in leads you to become the dentist that you become, because you’ll find that you’ll either draw [01:38:35] inspiration from the people that are there, or you’ll see that there’s a definite gap in the market for something. [01:38:40] So then you upskill in that area, and then you take all the referrals from the other dentists. So. So [01:38:45] yeah. So I think if anybody wants to become this kind of dentist, [01:38:50] just takes takes a lot of hard work and just try and do as many courses that you can and and [01:38:55] just practice.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what’s your favourite book? Have you, have you bought a book ever on this subject? [01:39:00]

Sam Cope: Um, the, the book that I [01:39:05] refer to a lot is Sandra Ty’s book [01:39:10] for orthodontics. That’s really good for Invisalign and learning [01:39:15] about buttons and things, but I think.

Payman Langroudi: The name.

Sam Cope: Uh, Sandra. Ty.

Payman Langroudi: Thats [01:39:20] the author.

Sam Cope: Yeah, thats the author. And I can’t remember the exact title, but.

Payman Langroudi: How [01:39:25] do you spell Ty?

Sam Cope: Ty? Ty. Oh, yeah. So thats a really. Thats a really good book [01:39:30] for Invisalign. But then, um, a lot. Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: Go go.

Sam Cope: Go. Uh, [01:39:35] but then. Yeah, a lot of, a lot of my experiences come from doing the postgraduate [01:39:40] diploma. And then its really important that once you know, you [01:39:45] have to understand occlusion, you have to understand, [01:39:50] you know, um, the makeup of a smile [01:39:55] before you can then kind of go on and just place composites of course. [01:40:00]

Payman Langroudi: What’s your course? A course you’re desperate to go on.

Sam Cope: Um, [01:40:05] I’m probably I think the next courses that I’m going to [01:40:10] go on are probably more injection moulding courses, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Um huh. Just [01:40:15] just explore that area more.

Sam Cope: Explore it a little bit more. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have you ever thought of choice or spear [01:40:20] that sort of thing? That that angle?

Sam Cope: Um, a little bit, I think. [01:40:25] I think to like more courses that I’d want to do is communication courses.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? [01:40:30]

Sam Cope: They’re so important. Yeah. Um, tell me a bit more about the Khoisan spear.

Payman Langroudi: Of course. The spear. [01:40:35] You know, like, full on occlusion, full mouth rehab type courses. Um, [01:40:40] they’re sort of thought of as the best ones and expensive in America. Mhm. Continuum [01:40:45] of of of the. It’s not only that I’ve really shortened it but but [01:40:50] that’s you know, the kind of dentist you end up becoming. You look at where cases and, and and take care of, you [01:40:55] know, full mouth rehabs on them without worrying too much, I guess.

Sam Cope: Yeah. I mean, [01:41:00] I’ve done a few full mouth rehabs with composite and, um, [01:41:05] some with porcelain and then darling as well. But I think if I think if you have [01:41:10] kind of the core principles in mind, then and also again, learning from [01:41:15] your failures, you’ll be able to. Yeah, you’ll be able to do it. I’ve. I [01:41:20] do have another good, um, book. I think it’s Devang Patel [01:41:25] on full mouth rehabilitation. That’s a really good one. Um, and he goes through how he kind [01:41:30] of builds up composites. I like him and goes from kind of single tooth composites, right? The way to full [01:41:35] mouth rehabs. That’s a really good book.

Payman Langroudi: Have you been on his course?

Sam Cope: I haven’t actually, yeah, I would like [01:41:40] to go on it though.

Payman Langroudi: I like him. Lovely guy. It’s been a massive pleasure to have you, man. Um, [01:41:45] we’re going to end on the usual questions. Fantasy [01:41:50] dinner party.

Sam Cope: Okay. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests, dead or [01:41:55] alive.

Sam Cope: So, um, so [01:42:00] I, I’m also a massive history buff. Like, I love history, so, [01:42:05] um, I think, like, the first person I’d probably invite is probably, [01:42:10] uh, Augustus Caesar. Augustus. I think that’d be really cool.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [01:42:15]

Sam Cope: I think the reason is just because, um, this is going to like, [01:42:20] show me as, like a real history guy. But I do love like I love, like learning about the Roman [01:42:25] Empire, but also him as a person in terms of [01:42:30] managing the struggles that he went through, but also being the most powerful person in [01:42:35] the world. And how to manage that would be quite cool. Yeah. And then the other [01:42:40] two people. So my, uh, fiance, her dad, sadly [01:42:45] passed away when he was three, when she was three years old. So I’ve never met [01:42:50] him before. But the other two people I’d like to invite is is him [01:42:55] and then my fiance as well, because I think that would be really nice for them to be together, [01:43:00] and also for me to get to know him as well.

Payman Langroudi: That’s such a lovely thing. I normally [01:43:05] don’t allow that, that sort of response, but that’s such a lovely thing. That’s such a lovely thing [01:43:10] that you just said there. Beautiful, Beautiful. Final question. [01:43:15] It’s a bit weird. Young person like you. Deathbed.

Sam Cope: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Three pieces [01:43:20] of advice for your loved ones on your deathbed.

Sam Cope: I [01:43:25] think, I think. I think it’s almost a reflection of what we’ve talked about on [01:43:30] the podcast, which is knowing knowing when enough [01:43:35] is enough and being able and also being able to really, [01:43:40] you know, the meaning of life almost comes from being in [01:43:45] your tribe and having really good personal family friend [01:43:50] relationships. That’s so important because I’ve seen, like with my family, you [01:43:55] know, people not get on together and then people get lonely and then going into [01:44:00] depression and things like that. So it’s it’s so important. Like keeping your family and friends [01:44:05] relationships is is crucial. Um, and [01:44:10] then I think, you know, getting getting a passion and a hobby is [01:44:15] so important to, um, I think my, my hobby, because [01:44:20] I’m only doing it three days a week now. My hobby is almost become dentistry. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Mine is podcasting. [01:44:25]

Sam Cope: But, yeah, it’s, um, I think getting something that you really, [01:44:30] really enjoy. So say, like, um, something, you know, obviously, I enjoy [01:44:35] doing the dentistry and enjoying your job is really important. And like, with the physio, like, [01:44:40] I saw that I couldn’t really envision myself being a physio into my [01:44:45] like, 50s and 60s. So not being afraid to sometimes take a step back and think, [01:44:50] actually, is this what I want to do? And even though it’s a drastic change, which is like a big [01:44:55] financial risk and loss just to do it. Um, and then the other [01:45:00] thing is to maintain a balanced life, which is to ensure [01:45:05] you’re getting the right nutrition, sleep, exercise and stress management to be able to [01:45:10] kind of live and fulfil a good life. I’d say quite crucial. [01:45:15]

Payman Langroudi: Sure.

Sam Cope: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Really enjoyed that man.

Sam Cope: Yeah. [01:45:20]

Payman Langroudi: No worries. Really enjoyed that. Thank you so much for coming all the way.

Sam Cope: Oh it’s been a pleasure. It’s been really fun.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you.

[VOICE]: This [01:45:25] is Dental Leaders the podcast where you [01:45:30] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:45:35] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [01:45:40]

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened [01:45:45] to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through [01:45:50] and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some [01:45:55] value out of it.

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