Payman Langroudi: People often ask me about the best way to increase their whitening in their practice. I’ve [00:00:05] got all the numbers in front of me. I can see sometimes in the same practice, one dentist doing ten times as much whitening [00:00:10] as the one next door. The dentists who do the most whitening are the ones who talk about whitening the most. [00:00:15] That seems kind of obvious, but there’s a group of patients who I would call the lowest hanging [00:00:20] fruit. Patients who come in every six months needing nothing at all. I would definitely ask those patients, [00:00:25] you need nothing because you’re brilliant. Have you ever thought about whitening your teeth? We’re asking everyone Enlighten online training. [00:00:30] Join us for an hour of clinical and marketing tips. Swap unpredictability [00:00:35] with delighted patients and higher margins. Enlighten online training.com. [00:00:40] Let’s get to the pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:45] is Dental Leaders, the [00:00:50] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [00:00:55] Your hosts Payman Langroudi [00:01:00] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to [00:01:05] welcome Keval Patel onto the podcast of Cana [00:01:10] Health Group, which is a group of five big practices [00:01:15] in and around Milton Keynes, and the Cana Academy, which is an education [00:01:20] spin off from that group. Massive pleasure to have you, my buddy.

Kaival Patel: Thank you for having me. [00:01:25] Payman. Yeah. Really an honour to be here.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Thanks for coming all the way.

Kaival Patel: No, no, [00:01:30] it’s not far. Milton Keynes to to London. Very easy. 30 minutes. We’re here. A little [00:01:35] bit of a delay on the on the trains, but yeah. No, no issues whatsoever.

Payman Langroudi: This [00:01:40] probably go into the backstory, all that. But sometimes I’ve got a burning question. And my burning question [00:01:45] for you is around the vibe in the practices. Yeah. Because I’ve [00:01:50] visited and I know how hard it is to keep a culture going even [00:01:55] in one building like the one you’re in right now. Have you managed to keep [00:02:00] that sort of family vibe going across five big practices [00:02:05] with how many employees now?

Kaival Patel: About 130. Yeah. [00:02:10] What about 130?

Payman Langroudi: Was it on purpose or by mistake? Because you certainly have that. I don’t see that with many corporates [00:02:15] or many corporates.

Kaival Patel: The vibe. I don’t know if you remember actually Payman we [00:02:20] met in Alicante. We were grabbing a coffee in between.

Payman Langroudi: How could I forget?

Kaival Patel: And, [00:02:25] um, in between, I came up to you and I don’t think we’d spoken to many times [00:02:30] before that. And I said to you, you probably thought I was trying to blow smoke [00:02:35] up your ass. But I said to you, Payman a day you came to my practice actually changed [00:02:40] our life. What? Yeah. And I’m serious. I’m serious.

Payman Langroudi: So I really thought you were joking. [00:02:45]

Kaival Patel: No, no no, no. So, uh. And again, this was many years ago. You came and [00:02:50] we’d recently taken over a big practice, our first practice. And I was [00:02:55] Uber enthusiastic. I wanted to introduce enlighten and loads of different things there. And [00:03:00] you came to speak to the the associates at the time and they [00:03:05] they had none of it. And I remember you were you were sitting in we had an upstairs [00:03:10] waiting room at that time sitting really regal. I had this really vivid picture in my crossed [00:03:15] legs. And you were talking to these guys and they just grilled you for an [00:03:20] hour. And I felt so embarrassed to have invited you to the practice to try and implement, [00:03:25] you know, a new system. And and yeah, people were just not on [00:03:30] board. They didn’t want to change. And these were all associates that we had [00:03:35] inherited when we’d taken either practice. Some of them were ex owners, um, and they just didn’t like change. [00:03:40] And I think a big, you know, I learned a massive lesson that day, [00:03:45] um, through the embarrassment side of it is I don’t want that culture, you know, I [00:03:50] don’t want that culture. Um, and we’ll probably go through, you know, when we took over the practice [00:03:55] later on. But, you know, it really, I hated [00:04:00] that. I hated that vibe. I hated going to work at that point. It was my own practice, and I hated it. And [00:04:05] I made a conscious decision to talk to my wife, Serena, who’s also the code director. And at [00:04:10] that time, we just had the two practices. And I said, this has got to change. And [00:04:15] that from that moment onwards, things started to change. It took a while to [00:04:20] to really get, you know, the culture change. And what did you do?

Payman Langroudi: What did you.

Kaival Patel: Do? First part [00:04:25] was, um, allowing them to leave and not having the, the, [00:04:30] the people there that weren’t on board with us. But I think also there wasn’t [00:04:35] really we didn’t have a North Star, to be honest. You know, we took over a practice and we didn’t really [00:04:40] know what we were doing. It was just the dumb thing to do. And, um, and, you know, [00:04:45] I had all these dreams and aspirations, but there wasn’t really a guiding North Star. And [00:04:50] what we changed was that North Star, which was positivity and respect, and [00:04:55] we really started to implement that and people that weren’t necessarily on board with it. Then [00:05:00] we had to move them out. Yeah. And people and then hire people that were on board [00:05:05] with it. You know, and that it doesn’t happen overnight. But actually once you start [00:05:10] getting that and you start getting that reputation, people start joining you because of that, and suddenly it’s a lot easier. It’s a bit of a [00:05:15] snowball effect. Um, but that’s what we did. We we ended up, you know, anybody who wasn’t really [00:05:20] on board with it, anybody wasn’t really on board with the things that we’re trying to. It doesn’t mean they were bad people. [00:05:25] Not at all, actually. They were brilliant dentists, brilliant people, but they weren’t aligned with what we were trying to [00:05:30] do. Yeah. And that made every day really difficult at that point. So. So yeah. Thank you man. [00:05:35]

Payman Langroudi: Okay okay. But you kind of in your let’s just spell it out in your head. Yeah. [00:05:40] You started breaking the team down into sort of essential and non-essential people. [00:05:45] People that were going to keep, you know, as you say, be on, on, on message [00:05:50] and be with you. Yeah. And the ones who weren’t. So then, as a operator, [00:05:55] did you manage those guys out? Did you try and change some of them and [00:06:00] realise they weren’t changeable?

Kaival Patel: Yeah. So again, like I said, it happened over a number of years. Yeah. And [00:06:05] initially, you know, there we had when we took over Oxford House which was our first practice, [00:06:10] seven surgeries. Three. And I like I said, you know, we were, we were rabbit in [00:06:15] headlights really. And they taught us a lot actually at that point, the ex-owners, you know, we didn’t [00:06:20] know about ordering. And, you know, a lot of the compliance part of things.

Payman Langroudi: Were you working in the practice at all? [00:06:25]

Kaival Patel: I started yeah, as soon.

Payman Langroudi: As the associate. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: So I was, you know, [00:06:30] again, like I said, Uber enthusiastic. I bought a cbct machine before I bought the practice. Ready for day [00:06:35] one. But again, that that sort of shows the, the disruption [00:06:40] that happened when I sort of came in. I’d been waiting for this practice for so long. Uh, due diligence [00:06:45] takes ages and so on. And I had just done a master’s in implants. I wanted my, [00:06:50] my main aim was just to to focus on implants and Invisalign and sedation. [00:06:55] Those were my sort of key things. So I bought the cbct ready to plonk in on day one. This [00:07:00] practice hadn’t really, you know, changed anything over the last 15, 20 years [00:07:05] for a long, long time and doing really, really well. And and yeah, caused [00:07:10] massive sort of disruption in and around there. Um, so yeah, I mean [00:07:15] it took a, it took a while to understand it all, to figure [00:07:20] it out, figure out how the practice works. Um, and then we moved forward into, [00:07:25] you know, a few years afterwards. And I was really scared, [00:07:30] to be honest. So I was scared to implement any changes. I was embarrassed after a few times, like yourself coming [00:07:35] here and so on, and it was really hard to implement something new. And actually at that point we [00:07:40] thought, well, this must be what practice life is like, you know, because you don’t know any different. And [00:07:45] there wasn’t really the same, you know, there wasn’t the same sort of social media and access to [00:07:50] information to everything.

Payman Langroudi: Which was.

Kaival Patel: This quickly. So we took over the practice in 2015, [00:07:55] and it was probably going into 2017, 2018. So it [00:08:00] happened, you know, over a quite a long period of time. 2017 is when we took over our second [00:08:05] practice and then. Yeah, so so then [00:08:10] I suddenly grew a pair and realised that when we wanted to implement things, you [00:08:15] know, I, I needed to be stronger with it, you know. So explain why. [00:08:20] Explain what the benefit is. And actually, you know, even little things like uniform. I was desperate [00:08:25] to change the uniform, you know, in the practice and just have nice, fresh, clean scrubs. [00:08:30] Um, and I remember when we, when we sort of first, you know, introduced it and one of the, [00:08:35] the owners was like, oh, is this what we’re going to have to wear? You know? And I was really [00:08:40] excited, you know, like this, this is the way it has to go. So eventually it was a case of [00:08:45] nope. Um, you know, this is what we stand for. And actually, I had a conversation with this person when [00:08:50] I, when I sort of reached my, my tether with her and I said, look, to be honest, [00:08:55] you’re the reason at the moment that I’m not enjoying coming to work. You make me feel uncomfortable being in my own [00:09:00] practice. Wow. You know, and and again, this person, not a bad person whatsoever. [00:09:05] It’s just how they were built. You know, and this.

Payman Langroudi: Was one of the ex owners.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. Yeah. [00:09:10] Um, pseudo ex owner. Probably keep it. Keep it that way. I don’t want to, you know, say [00:09:15] anything bad against anybody, but, um. But, yeah, I just said, look, I’m not comfortable [00:09:20] being in my own practice. And that person, she was, she she was really upset [00:09:25] that I said that because she genuinely didn’t mean that for that to be the case. Yeah. Um, [00:09:30] and then I think that sort of started the process of her, you know, edging out to her retirement [00:09:35] and, um, and stopping that way. But I used to just work wherever there was [00:09:40] a spare surgery, I wouldn’t have my set surgery and just have implant referrals coming [00:09:45] over to me, and that was sort of practice life at that point.

Payman Langroudi: This is a very important learning point for [00:09:50] people who want to buy practices, right? I’ve never bought a practice, so I can’t [00:09:55] talk with authority on it. But there’s the [00:10:00] two basic notions of evolution or revolution. [00:10:05] Yeah. Do you come in, smash everything down and rebrand [00:10:10] and rename and you know, the whole thing and say, this is what it’s going to [00:10:15] be like straight away? Or do you come in and make no noise? [00:10:20] Almost make sure that patients don’t realise there’s been a change in management [00:10:25] so that the staff don’t have a problem. Very simple. Keep everything the same [00:10:30] for six months one year six. Some people, you know extends for longer, right? Yeah. Learn [00:10:35] everything you can and then start to evolve the changes. And I always used to think that [00:10:40] was the right way. But Dev Beth Patel. His notion is smash [00:10:45] it down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it’s interesting because if there’s a culture that’s [00:10:50] pervasive, it’s been there for 20 years. Sometimes smashing it down might be the [00:10:55] best move. Yeah, but it’s high risk. It’s high risk. High risk.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. So we [00:11:00] adopt something in between now? Yeah. You know. So. But, you know, we’ve [00:11:05] learned little bits along every sort of practice purchase. And the first thing we actually tell, you know, any new [00:11:10] acquisition is what we’re going to do is we’re going to observe for a while because there might be loads of things that [00:11:15] you guys do that I want to implement. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but at the end of three months or six months [00:11:20] or however long we feel we’re going to have a meeting again and say, right, these are the new things that we’re going [00:11:25] to change, you know, and use that word. Make them comfortable with that word. Um, [00:11:30] we might change things. We might keep things the same, but we’re going to go through it with you guys after this period of time. [00:11:35] And then actually we do observe for those few months, you know, unless there’s something drastically wrong that’s happening [00:11:40] in and around there. We let the the team get used to us and we [00:11:45] get used to the team. And because often again, a lot of the places that we’ve. Taken over are [00:11:50] principal led practices. So having somebody offsite. Um, [00:11:55] you know, who’s not there day in, day out is really a challenge to to. The system. So, so yeah. So [00:12:00] so we tell them yeah we’re probably going to. Look to change. Um, and I guess we’re fortunate now [00:12:05] because we’ve got quite. Good reputation in and around the area. People already know you know that. What [00:12:10] we’re about, you know, um, and so they probably expect some of it, but they also [00:12:15] hear the good vibes. They. Hear, hear about the positivity. They hear about the development side of things that we’re really massive into. [00:12:20] So I now found there’s a bit of excitement, you know, from, from a lot of people, um, [00:12:25] people that have maybe been there for a long, long time and really are just averse to change. It’s [00:12:30] hard.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got a good question for you. You said when I grew some balls like so almost. [00:12:35] That’s almost like an evolution of you, your management style. Yeah. And [00:12:40] by the way, you know what got you too? Got you. There is not going [00:12:45] to get you to the next stage, let’s say. Let’s say you say, hey, listen, I want to go for the [00:12:50] 50 practices. It’s a whole different set of skills. You’ll need to get to 50 than to five. [00:12:55] So there is an evolution of management style as you learn yourself as a manager and [00:13:00] a leader.

Kaival Patel: Massively, massively.

Payman Langroudi: But now, between you and your wife, [00:13:05] what’s her name?

Kaival Patel: Serena.

Payman Langroudi: Serena. Yeah. Are you the good cop? And she’s the bad cop, or [00:13:10] is it. Have you broken into those kind of things or. I’ve got another very important [00:13:15] question on top here. Now, when you’re looking for practices, are [00:13:20] you the sort of cold numbers guy or [00:13:25] are you actually looking for practices where you don’t have to make too many changes? Does that does that raise the price [00:13:30] a little bit? If the culture’s already good?

Kaival Patel: No, I haven’t seen too [00:13:35] many practices that have our culture. So yeah. [00:13:40] So, so I think in terms of and you don’t really know, you can’t. [00:13:45]

Payman Langroudi: Really.

Kaival Patel: Tell.

Payman Langroudi: Until.

Kaival Patel: You’re there, until you’re there, you know, it might look great on the outside and everything else, [00:13:50] but you don’t really know until you’re there.

Payman Langroudi: So small town like Milton Keynes, when you’re so involved [00:13:55] in the Dental world, right? Nurses, receptionists, practice managers every [00:14:00] single practice in the town has a reputation that you can get access to.

Kaival Patel: To an [00:14:05] element, to an element. Again, you don’t. It’s the nitty gritty of the culture that you actually need to know. You [00:14:10] know, it’s actually is there one person who stirs the pot that’s the bit that you need to [00:14:15] to get to quickly rather than, you know, they might they might all look out for each other or to [00:14:20] an extent or, you know, really like the principal dentist that’s there and that sort of thing. But actually [00:14:25] it’s, it’s it’s the finer points and it’s also who are, who’s going to [00:14:30] look to join us in terms of what we’re trying to do. You know, who’s that? Social events that we look to do. [00:14:35] Do they believe in that. You know, that side of things. Do they believe in the positivity side of things? So, you know, a lot [00:14:40] of, you know, I talk to lots of people and they might, you know, I see their their eyes sort [00:14:45] of glaze over a little bit in that, you know, that’s all this fluffy stuff that you’re talking about. Positivity. How does that equate to [00:14:50] numbers? Um, so and some people and some dentists and, you know, some [00:14:55] practice owners, for example, they don’t quite get that part of it. So I think, I [00:15:00] don’t know until I’m there to.

Payman Langroudi: You know, Kunala love teeth.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The, [00:15:05] you know, he has much less trouble getting associates to work for him. Yeah. Than [00:15:10] comparable practices. Yeah. Because at the moment you walk into that place, you [00:15:15] know, this is a great place to work. Yeah, yeah. And that’s the feeling I got from yours as well. And [00:15:20] one way he does it, he does it in many ways. But one way he does it is by [00:15:25] overstaffing.

Kaival Patel: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. There’s more humans around than, than [00:15:30] you would find in a normal practice. Yeah. And I kind of like that because [00:15:35] you just in a practice. I feel like this is not enough humans, you know, number one. Yeah. [00:15:40] But also he does things like surprise and delight for his nurses. That gets them. There was one [00:15:45] person. There was a time where there was one person’s whole job was to find deals for the for [00:15:50] the staff locally. So their staff would get like spa [00:15:55] memberships at half price. Yeah. You know, this sort of thing.

Kaival Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. So interesting. [00:16:00]

Kaival Patel: It’s really. And we do the same thing. So I think we’re just not. And I think a lot of people [00:16:05] do it as well. They’re just probably not vocal enough about it. Yeah, yeah. Um, so yeah, we did the same thing. [00:16:10] We went to local businesses and just just to have almost like a team card that they can use and [00:16:15] have discounts on, on certain things. Um, but I think for us it’s, it’s getting it [00:16:20] into the day to day. Um, so we, we have this, um, you know, uh, innovation, [00:16:25] I guess, which was the Connor Cup. And, and really, you [00:16:30] get points for positivity. Okay. Yeah. And So, you know, area manager or [00:16:35] or, uh, you know, the the manager will sit with the Harry Potter Sorting hat at the start of the year, [00:16:40] put everybody into four houses, and they’ve decided the names of these houses between them. [00:16:45] And each of the practice has these four houses and and you just so it’s not KPI [00:16:50] driven, it’s not money driven, it’s purely points for positivity. So helping each other [00:16:55] out at the end of the day, um, Google reviews with your names on it and having having a patient that’s had a really [00:17:00] good experience and you get these these points for these little things. Practice manager has a certain number [00:17:05] of points that they can give out if they see, you know, something really positive happening within the practice and what [00:17:10] it did. And then at the end of the quarter, marketing manager will rock up with the prize wheel and they’ll spin the prize wheel [00:17:15] winning team will get something small, you know, like a lunch or a bowling or these sort of things.

Payman Langroudi: Kudos.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. [00:17:20] And then at the end of the year, we’ve got the Kano Awards and there’s a big sort of Champions League trophy that the [00:17:25] winning, winning, winning team gets. And to be honest, those [00:17:30] sort of things. Firstly, it gets a bit of friendly competition between some of the team members, [00:17:35] but the main thing is it gets them working together. Yet they have a team captain. That team captain sort of, [00:17:40] you know, spurs it on and we notice things like that bring bring the teams [00:17:45] closer together. And then when we have group related events then so we have a Kano [00:17:50] Olympics. So in the middle of the year sports day you know, and then you get points for these [00:17:55] sort of things. And what have you learned.

Payman Langroudi: What have you learnt about announcing new [00:18:00] ideas like that to your team without I mean, you know, you said the one person who’s stirring [00:18:05] the pot. Yeah. Let’s say you’re in a meeting with 20 of them and say, hey, I’ve got a new idea. The Kano Olympics, [00:18:10] that one person can destroy that idea there and then by making a noise [00:18:15] or a face or whatever. What have you learnt about how to introduce new ideas [00:18:20] to the team? So for them to take it on and really get the best out of the idea.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, [00:18:25] you’re right. And that one person can destroy it. So we’re really quick To [00:18:30] to have a conversation with whoever we feel that one person is. So [00:18:35] let’s say we have that.

Payman Langroudi: Before the announcement. No, no.

Kaival Patel: So let’s say we’ve had an announcement [00:18:40] and we noticed that face.

Payman Langroudi: That face. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: So we will have a conversation with that person afterwards. Just [00:18:45] saying look, we noticed it. You didn’t look that enthused. Is there something going on? You know, and it could [00:18:50] be something personal. It could be something else. Um, and then we’ll say, look, do you think it’s a bad idea? [00:18:55] Because actually, what we’re trying to do is bring the team together for x, Y, z. And this is what we feel [00:19:00] is going to do. And it’s a really nice thing to do. And we feel it’s a really nice thing to do. So is there anything [00:19:05] that you have against it? And we might hash it out. Normally it’s no and it’s this sort of sheepish [00:19:10] look down and you get a couple of strikes with that. And then we’ll have a conversation [00:19:15] about whether, you know, this is working for us.

Payman Langroudi: And these are these are conversations [00:19:20] you weren’t having in the first practice. You were just like, you know, shy and worried and didn’t want [00:19:25] to rock the boat.

Kaival Patel: It was it was not rocking the boat. Yeah. And it was not knowing what we didn’t know. And I think [00:19:30] over time we sort of grew in confidence with that part of it. And it sounds like we’re really militant about being positive, [00:19:35] but it just sort of happens. It actually the vibes are really good in the practices. And it’s [00:19:40] not just Serena and I, you know, so we hire managers, you hire.

Payman Langroudi: For it. [00:19:45]

Kaival Patel: For it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So attitude. You mean.

Kaival Patel: Attitude. Absolutely. Based on attitude.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:19:50] do you tell. Well like tell me that man.

Kaival Patel: So firstly just the [00:19:55] conversation you know. So conversation wise. And I’ll explain to them this, this image [00:20:00] I have of kind of health group and what we’re trying to do. And don’t get me wrong, we’re not 100% there. We’re definitely 100%.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [00:20:05] this occasional humans who just tell. You can tell. Yeah. So what do you do? Do you, do you [00:20:10] see many, many, many, many until you come across that one that you can just see the spark. Or [00:20:15] are you the type of person who can develop like, you know, people who [00:20:20] are 6 or 7 out of ten into nine out of ten, like, how do you look at that? Do you only want to hire [00:20:25] these superstars and you let loads go and no no no no no. We interview [00:20:30] a.

Kaival Patel: Lot. Yeah we.

Payman Langroudi: Do. Constantly interviewing I guess.

Kaival Patel: No not.

Payman Langroudi: We.

Kaival Patel: I mean, when we have a position [00:20:35] we won’t jump into that that hiring process. But you’re absolutely right. You don’t know until they’re in [00:20:40] place. So what we then do is a one week review. Two week review, three weeks, four weeks, two [00:20:45] months, three months. And during that process, we’re quick to say, okay, look, [00:20:50] you know, this is what we might, you know, have thought you could have done in this scenario. And this [00:20:55] is how we can coach you. This is how we can help you develop that side of it. And if their attitude is good, [00:21:00] then there’s no problems. You know, it’s when they sometimes they might think, [00:21:05] you know, oh, I’ve done this in another place and I know exactly what those people are really [00:21:10] good with systems and processes sometimes and maybe KPIs and, you know, corporate sort of [00:21:15] lingo and everything else. But they’re not necessarily the best people for the people and for us. [00:21:20] We want the managers to really develop the people side of it, because actually, what’s the biggest stress? [00:21:25]

Payman Langroudi: People.

Kaival Patel: People you know. So if you can take away that as much [00:21:30] as you can, the element of stress with the people and be the person that walks the shop floor. Go and say, [00:21:35] see everybody. Go and talk to everybody. Go and see how they are. And sometimes it is that conversation [00:21:40] of, you know, leaving personal stuff at the door. Work is work, but we still help [00:21:45] you out as in whatever way we can. But it is that people side of it. And and [00:21:50] that’s the bit I think we can we can help develop them. Kpis, all these things people [00:21:55] generally can learn, you know, and you just develop systems and processes for that. You make [00:22:00] it, you know, idiot proof guide as to what it is. And I need an idiot proof guide when it comes to systems and processes [00:22:05] and these sort of things. So I understand that element of it. But the people side is the bit where [00:22:10] you don’t know, after two conversations with somebody how great you are with with people, you [00:22:15] have to be, you know, you have to be given the chance in the practice. Yeah. Um, but actually what [00:22:20] we try and say to them as well is, look, it’s our voice, but we [00:22:25] don’t want there to be a them and us scenario. So you have to own that message, you know? So let’s [00:22:30] say we’re trying to implement something and you got to tell the team, yeah, you have to believe in it. And if you don’t believe it, talk to us [00:22:35] now. You know, and tell me the bits that you don’t quite understand or believe in or whatever, because [00:22:40] you have to own that message. And if they own it, then it’s not. Cable and Serena have said, go do this. [00:22:45] It’s we’re going to do this because of x, y, z. And I think that’s important.

Payman Langroudi: But then [00:22:50] how do you handle it when that person says, yeah, yeah, I don’t like the name Olympics. Can we change it to [00:22:55] tour de tour? The tour? The tour de France. Yeah. [00:23:00] And we get that a lot. No, no, but do you know what I mean? When it’s. Let’s say it’s a bad idea. Yeah. [00:23:05] An idea that wouldn’t work across the whole group. Now, now you have to hand. You have to [00:23:10] sort of empathise. You have to get that in. Yeah. And then say it’s a bad idea. And then without [00:23:15] ruining that person’s like, creativity.

Kaival Patel: And we’ve got [00:23:20] a big belief as well that we can try things and it can fail. It’s all right. [00:23:25] And actually, it’s just this this evolutionary cycle. Right? You try it, it might [00:23:30] not work and then improve it a little bit. And actually, if it completely floods, it’s all right. At least we’ve tried it and we’ve tried to [00:23:35] be innovative and we try something different. And you know, there’s plenty of things that don’t quite work out. Um, [00:23:40] and you try it. And that part we empower the team, you know. So if they [00:23:45] have any ideas like that. Yeah, we’ll give it a go. As long as it’s, you know, not going to cost my kidney and house [00:23:50] and everything else to to go with it, you know, let’s, let’s give it a go or give a version of it a go [00:23:55] and then and then try it if it’s the name and these sort of things, you know, there’s far [00:24:00] more smarter people than me in the team. You know, we’ve got an amazing marketing manager, we’ve got a head of growth and development, and [00:24:05] these guys have that creative spark. Yeah, people. Um, so I’ve got a trust in them [00:24:10] as well. Right? It can’t just be careful, you know, deciding all the things and we’ll give it a go and [00:24:15] go from there.

Payman Langroudi: So give me the, the sort of the stats, the snapshot of where we’re at right now [00:24:20] with the group. With the group numbers, I don’t mean necessarily money, [00:24:25] but I’m talking about people, clinicians, non-clinicians just [00:24:30] the whole thing. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: So yeah, five practices, about 28, 29 [00:24:35] chairs between those five practices. Wow. 130 ish [00:24:40] people between them. So maybe 40 odd clinicians and the [00:24:45] rest are employed team members. Um, and [00:24:50] yeah, they’re all big, big places. Um, and one of the practices of partnership practice. [00:24:55] So we own with another associate of mine and.

Payman Langroudi: The org chart outside of, you know, dentists, [00:25:00] receptionists above on the, on the, on the corporate level. What’s the org chart?

Kaival Patel: It’s a really good question [00:25:05] because actually I find when I talk to other group sizes similar to ours, that’s the [00:25:10] bit where it’s tricky at this stage. Um, so we’ve previously had a head of operations. [00:25:15] We’ve had, um, you know, lots of different sort of almost corporate [00:25:20] style jobs. And right now there’s Srini and I as directors. Srini is very [00:25:25] much, you know, into the operations side of the business. I’m focussed on growth and development [00:25:30] side of things, and I’ll probably focus more on the clinicians in terms of getting [00:25:35] them growing and developing. Then we’ve got a head of growth and development. We’ve got somebody [00:25:40] who is in charge of projects and that could be literally anything.

Payman Langroudi: We have one. Yeah, we [00:25:45] have one.

Kaival Patel: And then we have a marketing manager and and her assistant. And [00:25:50] that’s actually in effect the senior management sort of team or the management team. And then we [00:25:55] have the practice managers in each practice area manager. So we don’t anymore. No, [00:26:00] no.

Payman Langroudi: You had one.

Kaival Patel: We had area managers and and we found [00:26:05] that’s the difficulty, I think, of where we are at the moment. So as [00:26:10] we add probably 1 or 2 more sides or it becomes a bit more spread out, then [00:26:15] I think we will probably need somebody. But actually at the moment, Serena tends to do a lot [00:26:20] of that, and she’ll go to the practices. And the main role of the area manager we find is is supporting the practice [00:26:25] managers, but empowering them, you know, and sometimes you can have area managers who mollycoddle [00:26:30] the practice managers. They don’t want to do that. I’ll take it over for you because it’s easy, it’s quick, and they’re [00:26:35] really busy, right? They’re trying to look after X number of people. And we found that actually [00:26:40] what we want to do is focus the next year or so with Serena empowering the practice managers. Get them to the [00:26:45] level that they, you know, we really want them to be. And then and then probably [00:26:50] step away a little bit and have a look if we had a few more sites, um, you know, practices at that [00:26:55] point and I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Know if you heard the conversation I had with Anushka.

Kaival Patel: Yes, I did, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So she said of [00:27:00] the mirror for the, for people. But she said she’s got I don’t know what it is. What was it, 37, [00:27:05] 42, 42, 4242 practices. Yeah. And [00:27:10] she said 5 or 6 was a real moment, that things get a lot easier [00:27:15] after 5 or 6. It’s interesting.

Kaival Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I said, why? She said something regarding this [00:27:20] about how the numbers just work better when there’s more than five or so up to. She said up to 5 or [00:27:25] 6. You’re running and running and running. Yeah. Um, both of you have stopped [00:27:30] practising now?

Kaival Patel: Yes. We have. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So how much are you [00:27:35] working on it, and how much are you not? I mean, are you are you working on it? [00:27:40] Is it is it harder work than when you were a dentist or.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. I don’t think [00:27:45] I’d say it’s harder. I think it’s different, you know. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Are you five days a week? Six days? Are you?

Kaival Patel: Yeah. [00:27:50]

Payman Langroudi: Evenings.

Kaival Patel: All the time. And you know when when you’re married to the other director as well.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. Our conversations [00:27:55] are either about work or about the kids. Yeah. You know that that tends to be what [00:28:00] we’re about. And then we, you know, we’ll have our own chill time and watching Netflix and these sort of things that we like. The [00:28:05] same sort of stuff. But yeah, it’s it’s hard. It is hard, but it’s a different hard, you [00:28:10] know, and it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Not turning, turning up every morning at 830 for a patient.

Kaival Patel: Exactly. [00:28:15] Yeah. Yeah. It’s not the same sort of time constraints as that, but there is no time. Yeah. [00:28:20] You know, my lunchtime, in effect, is when the kids come home at 5 or 6:00 and I [00:28:25] try and have dinner with them, but then I go back to work, you know, afterwards. Yeah. If I’m doing interviews [00:28:30] or these sort of things in the evening. Well, to be honest, you see us and you took a picture of us and there’s three on one side. [00:28:35] I’m on the other with laptops on our laps, covering emails or figuring out what we’re doing with the next, you know, [00:28:40] whatever we’re doing. And so the first hardest part, though, was the [00:28:45] identity crisis I had when I stopped doing clinical work.

Payman Langroudi: Me too.

Kaival Patel: Me too. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s hard. [00:28:50]

Kaival Patel: Yeah. How did you. How did you get over it?

Payman Langroudi: Well, you know, I was hardly doing any [00:28:55] dentistry whatsoever, but I just wasn’t willing to say I’ve stopped. [00:29:00] I just wasn’t willing to do it. Even though I’d stopped before. But before I knew I was coming back. [00:29:05] This time, it was that question of, am I going to stop? And you really class yourself as a dentist, [00:29:10] you know? Yeah.

Kaival Patel: You do. And that’s your whole identity, right? Yes. When you go to family barbecues [00:29:15] and weddings and you’re introduced as the.

Payman Langroudi: Taxi driver asks you, what do you do? I [00:29:20] still say dentist, by the way. It sounds better than syringe guy.

Kaival Patel: But [00:29:25] there’s a lot of different connotations with that one.

Payman Langroudi: But I think the real key point for [00:29:30] me was when I realised I can always come back. Yeah. And that really just made me [00:29:35] think, oh, okay, no problem, I can, I can leave if I need to. I can always [00:29:40] come back. Yeah. How about you? So how did you handle it?

Kaival Patel: So? So the reason I became non-clinical [00:29:45] wasn’t quite the business side. The business part followed. It was I had a dodgy eye. [00:29:50] So during Covid, um, well, actually, in my 20s, early 20s, [00:29:55] I found out that I had this eye condition. I was that guy at the eye hospital where they bring [00:30:00] all the students to come and have a look, because there’s something weird going on and trying to poke and prod and figure out what it is. [00:30:05] Um, and then during Covid, it must be with the stress of everything. And yeah, it [00:30:10] really deteriorated. So to the point where I couldn’t really see the number plate in front of me, and [00:30:15] I thought because everything was closed, I thought I just needed to change my glasses. I went to the optician. They were like, [00:30:20] no, no, you need to see an ophthalmologist and figure it out. I knew at that point it was the condition that’s [00:30:25] really flared up, and I decided that.

Payman Langroudi: What was the condition?

Kaival Patel: So it’s called theisen’s punctate [00:30:30] keratosis. Keratosis keratitis. In effect, it’s protein plaques on the eye. And [00:30:35] it starts scarring the eyes. And you get vascular growth in there. And so [00:30:40] to be honest I always when it flared up before I had drops and it used to settle [00:30:45] down. But it was really bad at that point. And I thought I can’t do not do you know, I can’t do [00:30:50] dentistry without my eyes. I need to make a bit of a cooler and sat down with Serena and just said, look, [00:30:55] I don’t want a medical condition to to stop me. I want to make [00:31:00] the call on my own. Right. And so at that point, also, we were on this [00:31:05] entrepreneur program with NatWest and actually there was loads of different businesses. [00:31:10] Loved it, you know. So sometimes when we’re all just enclosed in dentistry, it’s a very same, [00:31:15] same world. These were loads of start up businesses and the energy was insane. And we [00:31:20] both realised that we both loved the business side of it, which is unusual. Sometimes you normally [00:31:25] have one person that likes the clinical. One person might like the business, but we both love the business side. So we had a chat [00:31:30] and we said, look, the only way we can probably make it work is by growing and having [00:31:35] more practices. And we also just sat down and figured out this is the first [00:31:40] time we figured out the numbers.

Kaival Patel: So, you know, up until then I was as most principal [00:31:45] owner principal, you do the work, you’re taking pittance out of the practice and [00:31:50] you’re the money that you generate is going into the practice, but you don’t know, you know. So [00:31:55] I was spending loads of marketing and loads on everything and just letting it go because you don’t have the time to just sit there [00:32:00] and, and that’s the only one benefit of Covid is you can sit down and we figured out, you know, [00:32:05] what our surgery costs were and what they’re, you know, running it. And there was a good webinar at [00:32:10] the time which sort of went through all of that stuff. And then we realised, well, actually, we we [00:32:15] need to grow things. We need to spend time on the business. Let’s give it a go. Worst case, exactly [00:32:20] what you said is we’ll go back into dentistry if it doesn’t quite work out. Um, so, [00:32:25] so yeah, that’s what forced me actually to stop. And it took a little while once we were back in after Covid [00:32:30] to finish my cases and yeah, these sort of things, um, Serena had stopped at that point [00:32:35] as well. And then. Yeah. And then we sort of went, went into just focusing [00:32:40] on the business side of it.

Payman Langroudi: And with the I mean, the growth is quite quick. You’re [00:32:45] Covid sorry you started 2015. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: So really slow at the start.

Payman Langroudi: We’re ten [00:32:50] years in. Yeah. And 30 chairs. Not a joke. It’s that’s not [00:32:55] a joke. That’s fast growth. That’s fast growth. With that speed of growth [00:33:00] you’re obviously having to throw every penny back into the business. Right. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: You do, [00:33:05] you do. Um, we do well out of it as well, to be honest. You know, [00:33:10] so I think we yeah, we it comes to funding, actually, a lot [00:33:15] of the time. So, so high street banks in general, you know, they want you to put ten, 20% down. [00:33:20] All the practice we buy are big practices, you know, a million, £2 million things. So 10 to 20% [00:33:25] is no joke. Yeah. But again, we made the call that, you know, we’re going to put this money back in. We’re going to put the money [00:33:30] in to develop the places. You know, we’re going to develop and upskill our clinicians. Um, [00:33:35] and we’ll keep a track of the numbers and we make sure that we’re on top of it. So the last [00:33:40] year or so, I think we’ve been really on top of it in terms of the numbers of things. And we’ll go through [00:33:45] and we’ll have KPI related meetings together. And I’ve got a business coach, and she [00:33:50] also doubles up as a marriage counsellor between me and Serena. So, yeah. Um, but, [00:33:55] you know, we focus on those aspects. And I think the cool thing about the size we are is that [00:34:00] we can try lots of things.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kaival Patel: You know, and we can try these things. [00:34:05] And sometimes they won’t work, sometimes they work and we sort of develop on it.

Payman Langroudi: So size is a funny thing, man, because [00:34:10] it depends what you’re chasing, doesn’t it? Like I used to I used to want to chase happiness. [00:34:15] Not happiness. Joy. Joy.

Kaival Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Pleasure. Yeah, yeah. And he had it all mixed up. I used to think [00:34:20] pleasure and joy and happiness were all one thing. Yeah. So I was chasing that [00:34:25] and that. It’s an unlimited sort of cost base to that, right? So [00:34:30] even more joy. Get even a bigger boat. Right? You know what I mean? It’s there’s no. So [00:34:35] now, though, I feel like I’m. I’m chasing peace.

Kaival Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And whatever.

Kaival Patel: It.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:34:40] whatever the thing is, whatever the thing is, it’s like hiring a new social [00:34:45] media manager. Yeah. And I’m thinking of of of what will it take for this to give [00:34:50] me more peace. Yeah. And often that is hiring the right one. All of those things. [00:34:55] Yeah. Hiring the right one, training them properly, inspiring them. All of that stuff will eventually get you [00:35:00] somewhere where you’ve got peace now, because someone’s doing well at that. So sometimes peace is hard work [00:35:05] itself. Is it nice.

Kaival Patel: Or is it productivity?

Payman Langroudi: Peace. Is it peace for me? Yeah. [00:35:10] Yeah, yeah. Some people. Some people you just met upstairs. He’s all about potential, [00:35:15] you know. Okay. And potential is a beautiful thing, too, you know? And he’s all about automation [00:35:20] and stuff, right? So there’s some things. Turn one person on more than the other. You know, it’s [00:35:25] an interesting question, but you know what you’re saying here about right where you are at [00:35:30] right now. And I’ve been involved in your business enough to know you’re in a happy place. Yeah. [00:35:35] Yeah. I think back sometimes to pre-COVID 2014. [00:35:40] Yeah. We were much smaller company, but we [00:35:45] were so happy. We were so happy. Nice. Yeah. Because the team at that point [00:35:50] was just perfect. It was easy enough to manage whatever it was. 12 people. Yeah. Yeah. And, [00:35:55] you know, we were in a happy place. So this question of where is it going and what is it? What drives you? Do you think [00:36:00] potential drives you.

Kaival Patel: You sort of say peace or say happiness. And I think that’s [00:36:05] probably a problem I do have. I’ve never really that happy, you know, with wherever we are, I’ve, [00:36:10] I’ve always got an itch.

[TRANSITION]: I want more.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, I’ll get the car, I’ll get the house and all these [00:36:15] things. It’s great for a week. And then I don’t feel that content [00:36:20] because.

Payman Langroudi: Things don’t bring contentment. That’s the problem. I never thought I would be this cat to talk, preach this message. [00:36:25] But things don’t. Things don’t. They don’t. I was chasing experiences, right. But [00:36:30] even experiences in the end. Right? It’s a funny thing. It’s a funny thing. But [00:36:35] knowing, knowing what it is for you is the important thing. Because it’s a bit of a [00:36:40] cliche, but the older I get, the more I realise all the cliches are real. Yes. Yeah. [00:36:45] That, you know, um, Stephen Covey used to say a thing about climbing up the [00:36:50] wrong ladder really quickly. Yeah. And knowing which [00:36:55] is the right ladder to climb up. Yeah, yeah. Because running, climbing up ladders quickly on their [00:37:00] own can lead you to wrong places, you know. Bad places.

Kaival Patel: And you don’t [00:37:05] know it until you’re there, right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I think, you know, [00:37:10] I’ve always got this itch. I always need to try different things. And I think.

Payman Langroudi: Were you always very ambitious?

Kaival Patel: Yeah, [00:37:15] probably. Probably so. I used to. First thing is at [00:37:20] school, I used to, um, you know, those DVDs, DVD burner? Yeah. I [00:37:25] managed to save up. I don’t even know. Probably asked Mum and Dad, um, for a little bit of funding [00:37:30] for a DVD burner. I used to copy these DVDs and sell them, you know, in school and bootleg. [00:37:35] Yeah. Yeah. Oh.

Payman Langroudi: Criminal mind as well.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, absolutely. Criminal mind.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Kaival Patel: This [00:37:40] is why the ankle tag only lets me go so far. Um. And then. [00:37:45] Yeah, I’ve always had something, you know, I, as an associate, I developed an [00:37:50] app called the Dental professor, which absolutely flunked. Um, absolutely flunk because I didn’t [00:37:55] really, you know, put enough time and effort into it, but it was it was almost like the, you know, dentinal tubules [00:38:00] before tubules were sort of there and taking videos from different, different [00:38:05] sources and have educational videos for, for, you know, I used to find, [00:38:10] I used to speak to people straight from at that point or PhD now and, you know, they hadn’t had that much [00:38:15] experience. So I thought, okay, let’s, let’s try and get them that experience and, and monetise it and have, you [00:38:20] know, this, this dental profession.

Payman Langroudi: Why dentistry? Did you, did you want to be this sort of IT guy or something before [00:38:25] your parents stepped in and made you become a dentist?

Kaival Patel: Parents never made me do anything. Yeah. They [00:38:30] didn’t. They wanted me to have a secure profession. You know, they were immigrants from Uganda, got kicked [00:38:35] out, um, from Uganda, and they focussed everything they had on just [00:38:40] educating, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Ugandan Asians, master race.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I told you this before, haven’t I?

Kaival Patel: They’re [00:38:45] amazing. They’re amazing. Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:38:50] they came over after Idi Amin.

Kaival Patel: Idi Amin, and, um, so my, [00:38:55] my dad’s dad passed away when he was really, really young. So he was he was my grandmother [00:39:00] and he was, you know, the linchpin of the family. And actually my my eldest uncle, [00:39:05] who pretty much resumed that, that father role for, for his he had eight dad [00:39:10] had seven other siblings. And my uncle just passed away recently. And it [00:39:15] was nice hearing the stories of of what they sacrificed and what they, you know, became and [00:39:20] and how hard they really worked. I don’t think sometimes I don’t really have that concept. I [00:39:25] can hear it, but I can’t truly understand, you know, Mom and dad had newsagent’s shops, [00:39:30] um, when I was a kid, and they worked every hour, you know, every hour. Sundays. He wasn’t having [00:39:35] a weekend off. He was, you know, Saturday, Sundays. Um, and all they did was to try [00:39:40] and get me and my sister educated.

Payman Langroudi: How many?

Kaival Patel: How many.

Payman Langroudi: Newsagents.

Kaival Patel: At [00:39:45] the most. They had two at one point, but most of the time they had one. And dad then had a dry [00:39:50] cleaners afterwards. Um, when they, when they sold the newsagents. But yeah. No he wasn’t he [00:39:55] wasn’t like a, you know, a big sort of entrepreneurial chain. He was just grafting, getting [00:40:00] enough. It really was. I genuinely say it to get me and my sister through. They really believed in private education, [00:40:05] went to private school. We had a really bad financial time. At one point I had to move away from [00:40:10] from private school, and my sister was sort of at GCSE [00:40:15] time at that point, so you could tell who the favourite was. Yeah, she, she stayed in school. Now she’ll, she’ll. [00:40:20]

Payman Langroudi: Just discussing this upstairs weren’t we. Like what would it take to make you go back to becoming a dentist. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. [00:40:25]

Payman Langroudi: And Sandra was saying even if you had to take his kids out of private school, he [00:40:30] still wouldn’t. Yeah, yeah. So go on. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: So, um. So. So. Yeah. [00:40:35] So I went to this school.

Payman Langroudi: Was it? Where did you grow up? Milton Keynes. Milton Keynes. So then [00:40:40] you went to university?

Kaival Patel: Yeah. In Manchester. Absolutely. Loved my time there. [00:40:45] Absolutely loved my time. It was. It was the best year. 2003 to [00:40:50] 2008.

Payman Langroudi: Around Kailash time. Do [00:40:55] you remember Kailash?

Kaival Patel: No, no I don’t. I met Kailash afterwards, but. But not. [00:41:00] Not at university.

Payman Langroudi: How did you enjoy Manchester? As in. Did you get there like big [00:41:05] city? I’m going to have fun. First time freedom.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, it was a. [00:41:10]

Payman Langroudi: Lot.

Kaival Patel: Of that, to be honest. Yeah, yeah, I used to. I enjoyed, you know, I had a really good group [00:41:15] of friends who I’m really, really close with now. Mixture of dentists and non dentists. And [00:41:20] we enjoyed the time there. You know quite, quite frankly. It was in my same year um, although [00:41:25] we didn’t get together until, you know, after university, but, um. Yeah, I mean, I [00:41:30] did enough to get through. I wasn’t an exceptional student. It’s quite funny. We have we [00:41:35] have some of the speakers that are on our course now who were probably my clinical tutors at that point. [00:41:40] Yeah. They won’t remember me at all.

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t.

Kaival Patel: Remember her? She was a great [00:41:45] student. Oh. Was she? But, you know, I was I wasn’t really, um. I did [00:41:50] enough to get through, except for my final year when I had this stark realisation that if I fail, all [00:41:55] my friends have gone and moved on and I’ll be. I’ll be left where I am and I studied then. [00:42:00] I did study then and I did quite well out of it. But yeah, it was um, [00:42:05] yeah, I enjoyed it. Lots of sports, lots of going out, lots of these. And I like Manchester because [00:42:10] it’s a big city. But everything, especially the Dental side of it, was really quite close together.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:42:15] not a big city at all, actually. The middle is quite small, isn’t it? Yeah, yeah, that’s the thing. Yeah. If [00:42:20] you there’s.

Kaival Patel: Lots of things to do.

Payman Langroudi: I went back to Cardiff. Yeah. Um, with a buddy and [00:42:25] we realised we walked around the area that we used to hang out and [00:42:30] we realised there was this tiny little area of the city. I mean, you know, we used to have cars and we used [00:42:35] to go and have a, I don’t know, meal somewhere outside of that little area. But I remember looking at the area [00:42:40] thinking, shit, man, it was that road, that road, that road, that road, that road. And they were in a little like [00:42:45] a octagon. Yes. Yeah. That was at the most two miles. It’s [00:42:50] really.

Kaival Patel: Not not.

Payman Langroudi: Not a big area. Yeah. Not a big area. And I think the central Manchester bit like that. [00:42:55]

Kaival Patel: It felt close. Yeah. And that’s why I wanted, you know, my choices I think were sort of Manchester, [00:43:00] Liverpool. It was all up north really. Um I think I found London too vast for me. [00:43:05] Um, so, so, yeah, I really enjoyed my time there. I really enjoyed my time.

Payman Langroudi: Did you even consider [00:43:10] staying or. No, not at all.

Kaival Patel: No. I always wanted to come back home. You know, I wanted to come back home. So. [00:43:15]

Payman Langroudi: First job.

Kaival Patel: First job in Northampton. So quite close to. To Milton Keynes. [00:43:20] Um, and then probably my, my biggest break was my associate position. [00:43:25] I had sort of one job interview with a chap called rescue who, [00:43:30] um, is, was in Wellingborough, and he’s absolutely [00:43:35] my mentor, you know, in that thing. And I was an associate there for a number of years. Uh, [00:43:40] I learned from him and from how he did things. The importance of having [00:43:45] people come in to to upskill your You dentists, you know, and just just the fun part [00:43:50] of learning. The side of dentistry, you’re not suddenly in a job. 9 to 5, you go home and whatever else it was. [00:43:55] The camaraderie part of it, the social part of it, and also the the learning part. [00:44:00]

Payman Langroudi: And so he’d organised education for all the associates.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, he did, he did [00:44:05] he there was a sort of, you know, a hotel near where he lived and [00:44:10] he’d just, you know, hire out the function room there. And he must have had ten, 12, 15, [00:44:15] maybe 20 associates. And, you know, whoever were into it, [00:44:20] they’d come there and, you know, they’ll they’ll lend their bits and sort.

Payman Langroudi: Of a social.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, yeah. Um, [00:44:25] not necessarily socially. It was they actually learning part of it. So he did the courses, socials and things were, [00:44:30] were Christmases and, you know, these sort of things. But the learning part he used to get these, these and, [00:44:35] you know, I used to speak to other, you know, my friends in, in their positions and so on [00:44:40] and any courses that they wanted to go and they would have to go and find it themselves going, yeah, yeah, go and do it. And [00:44:45] um, and there was nothing local, you know. Everything was London and Manchester and these sort of places. [00:44:50] So. So yeah, I really learnt a lot by me, by him.

Payman Langroudi: And he was a implantology [00:44:55] artist.

Kaival Patel: He do a lot of implants. Yeah, he used to, he used to do a lot of everything. Invisalign, [00:45:00] implants. Um, yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so did you [00:45:05] start learning implants quite quickly or.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, I did my MSC quite quickly. Um, [00:45:10] how long from it?

Payman Langroudi: Like, which year was it?

Kaival Patel: Um, so actually, I completed the MSC [00:45:15] the year I took over Oxford. Oxford House, my first practice. So I completed [00:45:20] 2015. So I must have started. Yeah. 2012, I guess, or 2011.

Payman Langroudi: And I’ve seen [00:45:25] implantology.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Distance.

Kaival Patel: What did you know full time? So [00:45:30] part of it was based in Harley Street, um, BPP [00:45:35] University.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, okay.

Kaival Patel: And then the last part of it, they sort of switched over and it was [00:45:40] University of Warwick, which was the academic year. Um, and at the same time did [00:45:45] her masters in Indo. So she was very Indo focussed and again she finished it [00:45:50] and we also had our first child in that same year as well. I remember having [00:45:55] the interview and Sarina was he was five days old in the interview prior [00:46:00] to taking over the practice, and he was very attached to her. And then she was [00:46:05] having this interview, you know, five days post, post birth. And I just said, look, [00:46:10] if they ask you a dodgy question, you know, just give him a bit of a nudge and get him to cry or something. So it will put [00:46:15] them off the scent. You know, the.

Payman Langroudi: Nature of those early days of business building and [00:46:20] life building that it’s part of the nature of it, that you end up in the same two [00:46:25] years buying a house, buying a business, getting married or having a kid. Like all those [00:46:30] things happen all at the same time. And even though those are the sort of [00:46:35] the, you know, foundations of the life that you’re building for yourself, I remember [00:46:40] being very overwhelmed by those years. I mean, I don’t know, the business for us was [00:46:45] this. And we were losing big amounts of money, huge amounts of money. And then, [00:46:50] you know, it’s a big change to becoming a husband, a father, if that’s where you went [00:46:55] in those years. You said you’re a father. Yeah. People don’t. [00:47:00] People don’t realise that that’s going to come. And then when you’re in it, [00:47:05] you don’t realise everyone’s going through it. You feel like it’s you. Yeah. Yeah. [00:47:10] So you get a little bit older and you see it. See the pattern happen again and again. Yes. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: You’re right, [00:47:15] you’re right. Yeah. But we always wanted we I don’t, you know, even now when we look back at things, [00:47:20] we think, well, actually nothing’s really as busy as whatever that year was, you know, around [00:47:25] it. Um, and so when we bought the first practice, we tried to buy a practice [00:47:30] a couple of years before, and that ended up going all the way to [00:47:35] sort of completion. We were due to complete two weeks later. We were due to get married, and [00:47:40] that ended up not going ahead because the person there was setting up another practice [00:47:45] nearby and telling his patients to to to move over. And so we ended up having [00:47:50] to, to to scrap that. But you know, like I think we were used to a long period of time where [00:47:55] there’s loads of things going. Even the second practice, we had our second child at the time and the joke was, are you just going [00:48:00] to keep having children with practices? And I nope. I moved out next door just to just to stop [00:48:05] anything from happening. Um, but but yeah, so we always had loads of things going on, [00:48:10] which is the interesting part even now with, with the three kids, you know, there’s lots of things going on, but, you [00:48:15] know, it’s not the same as what we had going on at that point, really.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:48:20] where is it going next, practice wise?

Kaival Patel: Uh, we keep growing, I [00:48:25] think. Um, I’ve never been you know, everybody asks this question of how many practices do [00:48:30] you want? I don’t have a number. You know, I don’t want to. I don’t have this ten or 15 or 20 or [00:48:35] whatever it is. I want to buy practices when we’re comfortable doing it and, you know, [00:48:40] finding the right places that suit the sort of portfolio that we have and things that [00:48:45] we feel we can, we can add to. So we’ve got hopefully another one coming through now, but it’s been [00:48:50] maybe a year or 18 months since we, we purchased the one prior to that. So [00:48:55] I think we’ll grow until.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the difference with your group compared to many of the others that for instance, [00:49:00] in Alicante I sat with many, many, many people who were mini corporates. Right. Um, [00:49:05] yours is private more than it is.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. 92% private. [00:49:10] Yeah. 8% NHS. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And it was funny because I noticed that pattern [00:49:15] of every almost everyone I was talking to was saying, well, we’re buying NHS practices based on the contract values [00:49:20] were, you know, remortgaging, basically buying more and more and more. Yeah. Did [00:49:25] you decide you’re going to go down the quality route right at the beginning and you’re going to stick to that, or are [00:49:30] you open to.

Kaival Patel: So we’ve had the opportunity to buy very NHS heavy [00:49:35] practices. And we’ve always felt it’s just not us. It’s not our vibe. You know, [00:49:40] I don’t mind having a small element of NHS and, um, and having that as historic value within [00:49:45] the practice, but actually we want we want that patient experience, you know, and [00:49:50] the way to deliver that is to do the dentistry that the dentists want to do in and [00:49:55] around there. That’s the dentistry side of it. And then the way you can have the team following that flow is, [00:50:00] is, is really, you know, having a nice building, having a nice presentation, having a nice flow [00:50:05] of things, having time, you know, which is the massive value aspect for any patient. [00:50:10] So um, so that’s what we focussed on. So, so yeah, when we look at practices now, [00:50:15] yeah, we don’t mind if there’s a small element, but it’s mainly private that we probably look to go to. [00:50:20]

Payman Langroudi: How do you feel about this? I was at PDSA at the weekend. Yeah. Yeah. And the question of [00:50:25] people going from feet to private. Mhm. How do you feel about that. Do [00:50:30] you when you’re hiring.

Kaival Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do you discard anyone who’s coming straight from PhD. [00:50:35]

Kaival Patel: It’s a really good question. I think Heart of [00:50:40] Hearts sometimes, you know, if if they’ve gone straight from that [00:50:45] and the, the CV has three lines saying done PhD and [00:50:50] looking for private position, then there’s no want in there. You know there’s [00:50:55] no I can’t see see that drive or if there’s not a cover letter sometimes you know, these sort of things.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s say [00:51:00] let’s say everything’s good on that end.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. And then when we speak to them, I feel like I can develop the, the [00:51:05] dentist. And actually it’s not so much me. It’s, it’s the team I have around [00:51:10] us. So, you know, it’s a very open door policy in all of the practices. We’ve [00:51:15] got a clinical lead dentist now because I didn’t feel like I’m, you know, being three years out of it, I’m not [00:51:20] the most appropriate person to to help train and teach. So we’ve got clinical lead dentists who, who [00:51:25] spends that time with it at.

Payman Langroudi: Each practice, or one.

Kaival Patel: Know, one practice at one practice.

Payman Langroudi: So there’s one clinical lead [00:51:30] for the whole group.

Kaival Patel: The group. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And and that’s what an associate are you paying him more for. For [00:51:35] that role.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, we give them a little bit more a month and.

Payman Langroudi: Less time with patients that he’s kind of more time.

Kaival Patel: He [00:51:40] works three days clinically. So he’s got, you know these these sort of two days [00:51:45] where he’ll and he you know he doesn’t necessarily take out a lot of his, his time [00:51:50] as such. But you know, like for example materials if we’re looking through a new, new set of materials, [00:51:55] he loves that side of it. You know, I always joke with him that when wherever we’re we’re out having a few drinks, he [00:52:00] turns into this Dental materials man, or we call him Rubber dam man because he just he loves [00:52:05] rubber dam and showing it and these sort of things. But you need that person. You need that person who loves that [00:52:10] side of dentistry. Um, he does things correctly. He does things in the right way. [00:52:15] Um, so, um, so, yeah. So he spends a little bit of his time doing it. Um, and when [00:52:20] we have a new dentist joined, they’re part of the induction part, but we have everything else around [00:52:25] for that dentist to, to sort of, you know, thrive in again, [00:52:30] quickly sort of know whether they’re not on board with it.

Payman Langroudi: So this question of, you know where [00:52:35] we’re at plus one. Yeah, yeah. There is they’ve got no experience, [00:52:40] but they’ve got no bad habits.

Kaival Patel: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t it. That’s the trade off.

Kaival Patel: That’s the trade.

Payman Langroudi: Off you’re [00:52:45] having to make. There.

Kaival Patel: But you just need to have that. You can take the horse to water but you can’t force them to drink. Yeah. So if we have [00:52:50] all that there and I say in all of my interviews is, you know, there’s loads of associate positions out there now, [00:52:55] what we want is somebody who’s wants to develop and is also going to have absolute [00:53:00] respect for everybody else in the team. So if you can do those two things absolutely fine to to [00:53:05] hire you and have you as part of our group, if you feel like you, that’s not you, then [00:53:10] this isn’t the right place for you. And and you know, when, when we go through all the things that we do, [00:53:15] they love it, you know, you see it instantly.

Payman Langroudi: In love, right?

Kaival Patel: Yeah. Yeah. What’s [00:53:20] not to love? And we’ve got the academy. We’ve got courses there all the time, you know. So again, [00:53:25] I don’t force any of my dentist to join the academy because it’s just a kind of health group, you know, side [00:53:30] of things. It’s they can join individual courses that they want to learn more in and these sort of things. [00:53:35] Um, but there’s that development side there. But again, you have to be willing [00:53:40] to turn up to the course and, and take part in it and speak to other clinicians. We [00:53:45] have a million WhatsApp groups, and one of them is just for clinicians. And my one rule in the WhatsApp group [00:53:50] is don’t be a dick. You know, there’s there’s lots of silly questions that you would have asked when you [00:53:55] were young and fresh into it. So, you know, allow these guys to ask questions, [00:54:00] put photographs in there, put X-rays in there and answer it, because we’ve got specialists [00:54:05] and all these wonderful clinicians within the team. And you know what? Everybody loves sharing. [00:54:10] I haven’t met a dentist who does well at their craft who doesn’t actually love sharing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah [00:54:15] that’s true. Because then she’s a bit like in a room, isn’t it? You want to you want to [00:54:20] talk about it a little bit when you, when you, when you’re with your peers. If you’re into it, if.

Kaival Patel: You’re into it. Yeah. [00:54:25]

Payman Langroudi: So do you think you’re good at telling who’s going to be a good dentist and who’s not?

Kaival Patel: No, [00:54:30] it’s the same.

Payman Langroudi: Same as a lottery, isn’t it? In the same way as you don’t know until you know.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. I [00:54:35] think we’ve hired people who haven’t been the right people after a short period of time and [00:54:40] would damage maybe our reputation and our quality of things. You know, a [00:54:45] bit to maybe money hungry, you know. Whereas I do feel that if you do [00:54:50] quality work and you spend time with the patient, the money will come. You know, everybody makes a good living, you know, when you’re doing [00:54:55] things the right way, if you’re a bit too overzealous with it or unethical, really, then that’s [00:55:00] my reputation. At the end of the day, you know. And so we’ve we’ve had to not [00:55:05] have people carry on with this as a result. Not many, not many.

Payman Langroudi: Positioning wise, you’re at the higher [00:55:10] end of the market, right.

Kaival Patel: In terms of.

Payman Langroudi: Positioning.

Kaival Patel: But you’re [00:55:15] the practices themselves or practices in the price wise.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Price.

Kaival Patel: And yeah I’d say [00:55:20] we’re we’re like a John Lewis. We’re not a Harrods and we’re not a, you know, [00:55:25] anything lesser in terms of a supermarket chain, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But so are [00:55:30] you saying there is a Harrods in Milton Keynes? That’s that’s the. You know, you can’t say we’re not a Harrods if there isn’t one. [00:55:35] Mhm.

Kaival Patel: I think there are practices that position themselves, you [00:55:40] know, more up-market than we are. Yeah. And we are family orientated. You know, the [00:55:45] crux of the business and the crux of the practices are family orientated care. Um, it’s not [00:55:50] just high end work all the time, but we’ve also got a referral centre where other practices refer [00:55:55] over to us. Um, and again, we have to maintain, you know, the levels, the quality. [00:56:00] Otherwise people aren’t going to refer. We’ve got 60, 70 practices referring to us now from starting from scratch from [00:56:05] when we took over. So yeah, that.

Payman Langroudi: Wasn’t a referral practice to start with.

Kaival Patel: No, not [00:56:10] at all.

Payman Langroudi: No. How many years did that take to.

Kaival Patel: So we took 2017. I had [00:56:15] the first specialist there, um, which was, uh, an endodontist [00:56:20] who’s, who’s been with us ever since. Amazing guy. And, um, and then now [00:56:25] we’ve got. Yeah. Oral surgeon. An orthodontist, a couple of periodontists, um, [00:56:30] a couple of, uh, people that do sedation implants. Um, [00:56:35] so everything barring a prosthodontist at this stage.

Payman Langroudi: Children’s.

Kaival Patel: And [00:56:40] paediatric, we don’t we don’t have somebody who does.

Payman Langroudi: I would, I would.

Kaival Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: We’ll talk about that in a minute. But [00:56:45] so impressive man. You make it sound so effortless. I’m sure it’s not [00:56:50] right. I’m sure there’s more effort than you’re. You’re letting on here. Yeah. But at the same time. [00:56:55] So impressive, man. Thank you. Not an easy thing to do. Not an easy. Along [00:57:00] with all the other things you’re doing to make that successful, you know. So what did you do about referrals? [00:57:05] Did you sort of study club it at the academy or.

Kaival Patel: No. What I did was [00:57:10] and I don’t know how right or wrong it is, we went to every single practice around the area [00:57:15] with a box of chocolates or a hamper, um, made a referral [00:57:20] pack and literally physically went to every single practice around the area saying, look, [00:57:25] we’re doing this. We’d love you to support us. The difficult part of that practice is, [00:57:30] is the general practice as well as a referral centre. So it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Seen as [00:57:35] competition.

Kaival Patel: Somehow.

Payman Langroudi: As.

Kaival Patel: Well. So, you know, I made it very clear, and we are crystal clear about it, that [00:57:40] we would never take anybody’s patient. You know, you refer it that patients come back to you, you know, whatever happens. [00:57:45] And so yeah, we went to all the practice. And now every year we do the same thing. We make it wackier [00:57:50] and wilder. Every year we’ve got these doughnuts. And you know, half the time we’re we’re regarded as these, [00:57:55] you know, the doughnut practice or, you know, these massive doughnuts that are all, like, really [00:58:00] nicely decorated. And we’ll go to the practices and we’ll, we’ll, you know, we’ll just give them.

Payman Langroudi: 60, 70 [00:58:05] of them.

Kaival Patel: No. So this will be maybe 150 to [00:58:10] 200 practices will go to. So we’ll go Milton Keynes.

Payman Langroudi: We’ll go wait a minute.

Kaival Patel: Watford. Northampton.

Payman Langroudi: Face [00:58:15] to face.

Kaival Patel: Face to face.

Payman Langroudi: That’s not you.

Kaival Patel: Not me. No.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s one person’s almost whole job, [00:58:20] right? Because that’s, you know.

Kaival Patel: It’s it’s it’s the it’s the most fun and it’s [00:58:25] the most stressful time that. So we have a referral centre coordinator, we have the practice manager there, we have treatment [00:58:30] coordinator and we have the marketing team. And and every year we say, look, let’s plan this a bit [00:58:35] earlier. Uh, we’ll make it a bit. So this year I want something interesting. This [00:58:40] is the bit that gets me kicking. Yeah. So this year we had Willy Wonka golden tickets, you know, um, for, [00:58:45] for them. And they’d have to do there and they’ll scratch something and, and get this golden ticket [00:58:50] and, and these sort of. I just want to make it interesting, make it fun around it. But there’s always this [00:58:55] massive push towards whenever we call it the, you know, the hamper drop days, um, [00:59:00] to, to get it there. But yeah, they’re out for two, two weeks. Um, [00:59:05] how many people. So we’ll have this year we had two cars. [00:59:10] So two in each, two in each. And so we’d go to the doughnut place because it’s all fresh doughnuts made [00:59:15] on that day. They go to the doughnut place, pick up the doughnuts for that day, and then then take it over to.

Payman Langroudi: Like [00:59:20] 7 or 8 times that day, whatever. More than that even. Yeah. How interesting.

Kaival Patel: And then [00:59:25] did.

Payman Langroudi: You come up with that yourself?

Kaival Patel: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It seems so obvious.

Kaival Patel: But I [00:59:30] mean, people don’t. People don’t realise. So the first year we did it, we got loads of these [00:59:35] Cadbury’s chocolates. Me and Serena spent evenings up until 3 a.m. making these boxes [00:59:40] up. And then we, we plonked them in our hallway and [00:59:45] we were like really excited, you know, massive, like layers of these chocolate boxes that were [00:59:50] due to go out and we plugged in the hallway, forgetting that we have underfloor heating. So [00:59:55] I’ve got a few messages from friends of mine that are other practices around the area [01:00:00] with this melted chocolate bars, like, okay, what are you trying to do here? You know, and [01:00:05] we were so excited. We’d put straw in these things and wrapped it beautifully. And yeah. So, [01:00:10] you know, you learn from these sort of things. But again, you look back at it and that’s the blood, sweat and tears that we [01:00:15] were putting into something slightly different. And obviously the clinical side of it [01:00:20] speaks for itself. You know, the specialists are amazing, and they’ll do webinars and they’ll get people together. [01:00:25] We had a our first ever referral centre event, which was like a Vegas [01:00:30] theme, um, event that people came to and, you know, and they could meet the specialists and [01:00:35] these sort of things.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s a massive achievement insomuch as you’re a dominant force [01:00:40] in the town already. So in a way, people think, well, am I feeding [01:00:45] my competitor outside of that practice, having a general practice side [01:00:50] to it? Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, if you’re a little bit competitive and you see this [01:00:55] dominant guy who’s got 30 chairs already in the town, now asking for referrals.

Kaival Patel: Might [01:01:00] piss people off. Yeah, it does actually. I’m sure it does.

Payman Langroudi: I’m sure it does. But but you know, the fact that you’ve [01:01:05] made it as successful as that as quickly as that is a testament to what a great guy you are, man. You’re you’re. [01:01:10]

Kaival Patel: Very kind.

Payman Langroudi: Man. You’re very kind. You’re okay.

Kaival Patel: I think, again, I [01:01:15] just have this itch and I need to do something, you know, we need to keep it going. And, and actually, I think when [01:01:20] you do become complacent is when things start dropping off. You know, and again, it’s not just me. You know, [01:01:25] I have a team around me that are doing all these things and reminding me, oh, we need to do this, that or the other, or [01:01:30] let’s try this, you know, and you’ve met some of them and they’re like, you know, on top of it, good [01:01:35] people. Good people. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Your Christmas party?

Kaival Patel: Yeah. [01:01:40]

Payman Langroudi: What is it, 150 people? No. Do you do the. Do you have five separate [01:01:45] ones?

Kaival Patel: No we don’t. No, no. So for the last two years, we’ve got everything. Everybody [01:01:50] together.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? That must be fun.

Kaival Patel: It was fun. It was fun. So we have. We call it. That’s [01:01:55] the kind of awards that we do. So it’s an awards night as well as the the Christmas party [01:02:00] and everything else. So I think we had about 100, 110 people. Um, [01:02:05] but it’s interesting, the first, first year we did it, last year we, we [01:02:10] had taken over a practice recently, not not too, too long before that. And we didn’t have too many [01:02:15] people from that practice turn up and these are my sort of benchmarks this [01:02:20] year. I really love it that practice. Virtually all of them came, you know, almost [01:02:25] 20 odd people. And they did a they did a Spice Girls dance, you know, like they got in there. I [01:02:30] always ask for the entertainment. We have our own entertainment. We’ll find somebody. Um, and I [01:02:35] ask if any of our team want to do something, you know? So we have last two years, we’ve had a singer, [01:02:40] you know, really talented singers that work with us. And, um, and then [01:02:45] they wanted to do the Spice Girls routine, which I love it. You know, like, they just got involved and got in there. Um, so [01:02:50] it’s it’s cool.

Payman Langroudi: It takes a lot of emotional intelligence to have these ideas and sell it to people. [01:02:55] Did you get this from the news agents? Did you work there ever?

Kaival Patel: I didn’t [01:03:00] work as much as my sister, just for the record, because she always tells me off. Yeah. Um, I used to play a lot of [01:03:05] cricket when I was younger, so cricket used to be Saturdays and Saturdays. I used to, you know, my [01:03:10] dad would would go and take me to to cricket and these people skills.

Payman Langroudi: Did you always have them? Were [01:03:15] you that kid who was always good with people? Did you get it from one of these activities? Captaining [01:03:20] the cricket team? I don’t know.

Kaival Patel: I don’t know. Yeah, maybe.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe. It comes very naturally to you.

Kaival Patel: Well, [01:03:25] I’d say I’m one of these guys that generally vibe off other people. Yeah. You know, so [01:03:30] I think I’m listening to a podcast and that introvert. Extrovert, you know, like, if I’m in a really [01:03:35] loud environment with loads of people, I’ll shrink up and go in the corner. Oh, really? Yeah. So I’m. But [01:03:40] if I’m in, you know, if I’m feeling the vibe and I’m normally smaller groups, then I’m [01:03:45] really, you know, I feel that energy and I vibe off of it. So I [01:03:50] think sometimes you have to force it when obviously you’re the owner of a business and you have to be there injecting [01:03:55] that energy. Um, what’s your.

Payman Langroudi: Attitude to risk?

Kaival Patel: Sorry. I’m risky. [01:04:00] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You like to take risks?

Kaival Patel: I like taking the risk. That’s where Serena’s in there. So she’s not. [01:04:05] She’s not fully opposite. Fully.

Payman Langroudi: You need a balance, right? You need a balance.

Kaival Patel: And she’s. She’s the accountant’s [01:04:10] daughter, you know. She’ll she’ll risk assess. Probably less so now. But [01:04:15] right at the start, you know, she would do the cash flows of the businesses and say, look, how are we going [01:04:20] to make this work? You know, because we looked at lots of practices before the first few. How are we going to [01:04:25] make it work? Is it going to work? What happens if it does? And what are we going to do, you know, these sort of things. And [01:04:30] now she tends to sort of let me fly with it to a certain extent. Um, [01:04:35] but yeah, she’s the one that really sends checks a lot of things, you know, and, you know, [01:04:40] we wouldn’t be anywhere, really, without Serena doing that part of it, honestly.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about [01:04:45] the Academy.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: When did you have the thought that you were going to be [01:04:50] like a teaching institution? This is a different thing to being a practice.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. [01:04:55] So I always liked that development side. Like I said, I used to get speakers in for our [01:05:00] own. So so even when we had a couple of practices and then it used to bug me, to be honest, [01:05:05] that everything’s in London or Manchester, even the courses I used to go to, you used to have to travel everywhere. [01:05:10] And I love the development side of it for for associates. I [01:05:15] literally love them, seeing them grow. You can see it in numbers. You can see it in confidence. You can [01:05:20] see it in just conversations that you end up having with them. And um, and I knew for, [01:05:25] you know, I knew I wanted to do something like that across the road from one of the practices, [01:05:30] the top floor of this room sort of came up.

Payman Langroudi: And I’ve been there. Right? You’ve been there? Yeah.

Kaival Patel: So it used to [01:05:35] be just the storage room. Um, you know, you had these salmon pink sofas and random [01:05:40] things in there, and I thought, actually, this this is perfect space to have [01:05:45] an area for us. And the practice we have across the road is sort of utilised every nook and cranny. So, you know, team [01:05:50] meetings and these sort of things, we used to not have space for it. So let me get that. You know, we, [01:05:55] we created a sort of almost like a boardroom. Um, you’re a U-shaped, [01:06:00] you know, section. And then I thought, well, actually, let me, let [01:06:05] me see whether we used to have, you know, courses generally and other dentists around the area used [01:06:10] to, you know, want to come on there and these sort of things. So I said, well, actually, what [01:06:15] if we just designed a program from scratch where, where people can come and join us? The USP [01:06:20] was it was in Milton Keynes and it got blown out of the water because we had people from Ireland and all over [01:06:25] the place coming to it because the speaking, you know, the speakers were so good. I didn’t quite I [01:06:30] underestimated how much work it was to become accredited to, to be [01:06:35] able to, to, to give out a diploma. Um, but once we got that, you know, I really [01:06:40] I loved it. Um, and I’m really thankful, actually, because a lot of the speakers wouldn’t [01:06:45] have heard of us. You know, we I had to reach out to I firstly, I asked other [01:06:50] dentists in that sort of target audience, you know, who are the people that you’re speaking to [01:06:55] and these sort of things. Some of them I hadn’t necessarily heard of so much at that point, reached out to them, [01:07:00] email or Facebook and these sort of things. And these guys took a punt with us. You know, they [01:07:05] were like, well, we haven’t heard of you, but you’re looking to do the right things. We’re happy to speak [01:07:10] on this, this course and stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Like who?

Kaival Patel: Nick Sethi, um, [01:07:15] even Milad.

Payman Langroudi: Um, singing dentist.

Kaival Patel: Singing dentist. Yeah. Um, she [01:07:20] has been on and jazz girl these are guys there. Um, Mitchell Patel and Jazz Gulati [01:07:25] and jazz. Yeah. And he was one of the actually the staunchest supporters at the start. He was so [01:07:30] positive. So, you know, he was just like, yeah, Kevin, just you could do it. Let me help you out. We’ll get people on. [01:07:35] He is.

Payman Langroudi: A great, great guy.

Kaival Patel: Man. Really great guy. And just his energy his infectious. Right. This is what [01:07:40] I mean. Like if I’m in a room with him, I’m suddenly bouncing around because I’m just vibing.

Payman Langroudi: With these, like, one day courses, one, [01:07:45] one event, one evening courses, or like, how did it start and how did it evolve? [01:07:50]

Kaival Patel: No. So so I always had the plan that it’s going to be a year long program. Yeah. Um, [01:07:55] but you can attend each individual course if you want. If you want to. Yeah. But if you want the diploma, [01:08:00] it’s a year long program.

Payman Langroudi: So eight.

Kaival Patel: So there’s 13 courses.

Payman Langroudi: 13 days in the [01:08:05] year.

Kaival Patel: 13 days in the year. Yeah. 14 days, 13 of course, is one of the courses is two days.

Payman Langroudi: And the [01:08:10] sort of the angle of the diploma is what? What is it? How do you what’s the kind of USP of that diploma over [01:08:15] a different.

[TRANSITION]: I mean it’s.

Kaival Patel: Similar to the other ones. The main essence is you’re [01:08:20] just getting good quality education in, in, in a bit of a smaller space. So [01:08:25] it’s quite one on one. The control you get that, that element of it, you feel part of it. I [01:08:30] wanted to create that little community from the delegates as well, where they can share cases and in a safe space [01:08:35] and, and these sort of things. And it’s just for me, it’s the best speakers or some of the best speakers in the [01:08:40] country, and they’re here and they’re in Milton Keynes, and they’re able to teach and train you. And we wanted [01:08:45] to tie it all up into a diploma. And you get something behind attending these [01:08:50] courses, and, you know, the letters after your name and these sort of things. There’s the kudos of it all. But [01:08:55] actually it’s just hands on, you know, like being able to utilise the skills that you learn on Monday [01:09:00] morning. You know, so many times I’ve been on courses, it’s been six months, I’ve not used anything. You know, [01:09:05] we really pushed them to utilise those skills to do it. And and again, [01:09:10] I’ve seen guys that most of the delegates now are probably not our own dentists. They’re [01:09:15] they’re others from all over the place. And, and I see their confidence develop, you know, as [01:09:20] they’re going on. Absolutely. Love it. You know and and when they’re leaving the course and they’re giving me a hug and saying, [01:09:25] thank you so much. You know, you’ve you’ve really improved my sort of, you know, my confidence. It’s not necessarily [01:09:30] that they won’t say clinical skills so much. It will be my confidence because that’s all related to to to learning. [01:09:35]

Payman Langroudi: You teach on it yourself.

Kaival Patel: No I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry.

Kaival Patel: No middlemen. No [01:09:40] no I don’t one I think I [01:09:45] think it’s a bit of imposter syndrome with a lot of the things. But the clinical side, I knew I wasn’t the best [01:09:50] dentist, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But surely there’s a non-clinical piece that you could have taught.

Kaival Patel: So [01:09:55] I’m going to develop that, um, which is a business and management course, um, which, [01:10:00] which will be happening later in the year.

Payman Langroudi: Even on even on Mini smile Makeover, we have a marketing lecture. [01:10:05] Yeah, yeah. I think it’s important. I think it’s important. Part of call it educate patient [01:10:10] education, whatever, whatever you want to call it. Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s important that the non-clinical side [01:10:15] of it is the bit we don’t get taught at all.

[TRANSITION]: We don’t get taught.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right. And you’re a master at it. [01:10:20]

Kaival Patel: I don’t think I am, but.

Payman Langroudi: It should have been. It should have been like 14 days or whatever, you know, 12.5 days, [01:10:25] but. But one of them or half a day, something talking about that side of it. Or you should definitely [01:10:30] do it now going forward.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. So I think we’re going to start this sort of business and management course towards [01:10:35] the end of the year. I need to I’ve got the the framework in my mind. [01:10:40] I just need to make sure that we’re, we’re, we’re going to market it in the right way and you know, and [01:10:45] actually have it beneficial for, for people, you know, whereas business owners or researchers want [01:10:50] to take the leap or people that are one one business and looking to scale up and, and these sort of things, [01:10:55] you know.

Payman Langroudi: Look, you know, I’m a massive fan of yours. Yeah. You know that. Yeah. Um.

Kaival Patel: What’s the. But [01:11:00] heck.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’m a massive fan of yours, man. And like I say, you [01:11:05] seem to carry things off very, like, flawlessly and sort [01:11:10] of effortlessly. And it’s just lovely to see a nice guy doing that. I love that. But [01:11:15] there is always in these stories, a darker side. [01:11:20]

Kaival Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind if I say darkest day in this journey?

Kaival Patel: Darkest [01:11:25] day?

Payman Langroudi: Well, some of them, you know.

Kaival Patel: I [01:11:30] think what I started off with in terms of, you know, easing [01:11:35] our way into practice ownership and, and the stresses that we had there. I’ve [01:11:40] had, um, I think we’ve had [01:11:45] associates or an associate who was the owner of a business or one of the practices [01:11:50] who left. And they were going through a divorce [01:11:55] at the time. And they said to me, look, I want to leave, but, [01:12:00] Um, I want to try and come back to the area before your [01:12:05] restrictions sort of time piece goes and, you know, they’ll be absolutely fine [01:12:10] with it. And, you know, they’ve supported the business all this time, and they sort of came back as soon as they came back, [01:12:15] there was mass marketing to go and grab their grab the patients back on a really [01:12:20] existing Dem plan list. And, and I felt like a complete wally because I just took it on good [01:12:25] faith. Right? Yeah. Yeah. That, um, that, you know, you’re going to do this, you’re [01:12:30] going to come back, you’ve got to rebuild your life because of everything you’re going through. Um, darkest day was Covid [01:12:35] the day.

Payman Langroudi: In private practice.

Kaival Patel: Right? Yeah. The day where I remember [01:12:40] we were in the waiting room of of Oxford House. And again, we had the only the two sides then [01:12:45] and um, and the announcement came on TV and I [01:12:50] had the team around me, and the announcement came on TV that everything needs to closed down. There was no discussion [01:12:55] of furlough and all these sort of things. And I just cried, you know, like I couldn’t [01:13:00] really, I needed to I should have just stayed bloody strong for the team and everything. But I had this realisation [01:13:05] that all of these guys lives and dependents are dependent on this business. How [01:13:10] are we going to help support them? Everything was going on at the same time and that was [01:13:15] a dark day. Um, and yeah, I think, I think that that [01:13:20] must be the. Yeah, that’s the bit where I feel the emotion now. You know.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:13:25] remember the team coming in. Yeah. Like our videographer guy, he came [01:13:30] in and he said, yeah, I lived with two other people. Both of them just lost their jobs, and they’re heading back [01:13:35] to Italy. Um, how’s my job? You know, like, he came in [01:13:40] like that. That was his opening statement. Yeah. On that day that we said we’re going to close everything [01:13:45] down. Welcome. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: See you.

Payman Langroudi: What about. We [01:13:50] like to talk about errors.

Kaival Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um. You know, because because because your [01:13:55] story is so beautiful and all that. I kind of want these this side to be equally painful. [01:14:00] Okay.

Kaival Patel: I’ll see what I can do.

Payman Langroudi: Clinical errors. Business errors.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. [01:14:05]

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind?

Kaival Patel: Business error. I think it was. Was that one that one, uh, clinical [01:14:10] error. It’s hard because I’m not that you know, obviously it’s been a while since I’ve done the clinical [01:14:15] side of it, but three years. Yeah, but the, the bit I, I [01:14:20] remember well, like it was yesterday was this, it was my first full [01:14:25] arch implant case.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. All on four type thing.

Kaival Patel: All on it was.

Payman Langroudi: 6 or [01:14:30] 6.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. Yeah. And, um, and I sort of was prepped and ready to, [01:14:35] to, to do it. And so I’ve done the surgical side of it and I was taking the, the [01:14:40] impression for, for probably the temporary work or it might have even been the final work. Um, [01:14:45] and it was a, you know, an open tray impression. So, so the, the [01:14:50] and now this is a patient that was Uber nervous. Obviously they [01:14:55] were, they used to we’d sedated her for the first part of it, just because she was so [01:15:00] nervous with generally everything, and she had a massive gag reflex. So I was always a bit, a little bit shaking it with [01:15:05] this impression. And it was pretty much right at that point. Did the party [01:15:10] and I forgot to, to, uh, to take out the, uh, the post. [01:15:15] Yeah, yeah. Around it. So in effect.

Payman Langroudi: It was all stuck.

Kaival Patel: It’s all stuck. She’s [01:15:20] she’s there. She can see that. I’m sort of sweating thinking I can’t access these posts. [01:15:25] So the only way I can get into it is to drill the, the putty.

Payman Langroudi: The [01:15:30] tray, the.

Kaival Patel: Putty. But she’s. Her biggest fear was the sound of the drill, you know, [01:15:35] that’s why she was.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, she was a nervous patient.

Kaival Patel: Nervous patient. Really nervous patient. So I’m there [01:15:40] trying to drill. Everything’s flying out everywhere. She. She kept getting up every two seconds because [01:15:45] she just couldn’t, you know, hack it. Um, and then I ended up [01:15:50] having to, like, section, basically this thing a complete moron, you know, completely.

Payman Langroudi: Imagine the mess [01:15:55] that was made, their.

Kaival Patel: Mess. And it was stress because she was. So when your patient [01:16:00] is anxious, you’re anxious, you know, a little bit inside yourself. There’s saliva everywhere. She was pretty [01:16:05] much vomiting. And yeah, it was it was horrendous. And then gradually ended [01:16:10] up. And also for this is the one patient you do everything happens right. I didn’t insert the [01:16:15] anything into the access holes as well for some reason I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: So they got clogged up.

Kaival Patel: They were clogged [01:16:20] up with this. There’s two millimetre holes that I’m trying to drill out. The, [01:16:25] you know, everything in there at the same time. And, um. Yeah. So that’s [01:16:30] the bit where I, you know, what happened?

Payman Langroudi: What happened? Was she cool in the end or.

Kaival Patel: She [01:16:35] she wasn’t. No. She was like completely freaked out afterwards. Took everything [01:16:40] out in the end. I said, look, do you want me? I’m obviously running now, you know, incredibly [01:16:45] late for everything else. And I said, look, I’m happy to try it again [01:16:50] now. Or should we just take a breather and come back in another day and I’ll do the rest for you. [01:16:55] And she wanted it another day. And actually the other day she was fine. She was cool. And [01:17:00] she she understood it. And, uh, I can’t say we laughed about it together [01:17:05] afterwards, but we were okay. We got it done and the end result was good.

Payman Langroudi: So did you take the blame? [01:17:10]

Kaival Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You said I have made an error here.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:17:15] she was.

Kaival Patel: Cool. There’s nobody else you can blame in that.

Payman Langroudi: But she was cool with that.

Kaival Patel: She, she got [01:17:20] it. You know, she, she, she understood it and she didn’t really care to be honest. Like [01:17:25] in terms of whether it’s my blame or anybody else’s blame or whatever else, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: A juicy one. It’s a juicy one. [01:17:30] I think I’m going to accept that. I think I’m going to accept that sometimes I don’t accept them when the [01:17:35] outcome is so happy.

Kaival Patel: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes it wasn’t that happy. Yeah, sometimes.

Kaival Patel: I get sued.

Payman Langroudi: So sometimes I [01:17:40] want an unhappy outcome. Like I’m not even talking about being sued. I’m talking about, you know, trust was lost. [01:17:45] Okay. You know, that kind of. But I’m good. I’m going to accept that.

Kaival Patel: Thanks. I appreciate it.

Payman Langroudi: Mainly [01:17:50] because we’ve come to the end of our time. Otherwise I would have sweated you a bit more. [01:17:55] No, I want to talk a little bit around your final questions. [01:18:00] Um. Fantasy dinner party. Three [01:18:05] guests, dead or alive. Who are you having?

Kaival Patel: It’s [01:18:10] a really hard one. I’m guessing that’s why you have it as the. The last one’s there to actually, like, [01:18:15] pick pick three. The first person would be my grandma [01:18:20] who’s who’s passed away. And, um, what.

Payman Langroudi: Was your relationship like with [01:18:25] her?

Kaival Patel: So, like I said, dad had seven other siblings.

Payman Langroudi: But the matriarch, the she was the [01:18:30] linchpin.

Kaival Patel: She was the linchpin.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, yeah. She was the linchpin and really strong lady. Really emotional, [01:18:35] but but strong lady. And she lived with us whilst I was young. So really fortunate [01:18:40] in the UK, lived with with my family specifically for a long period of time, but especially when [01:18:45] I was growing up. So she was the one that when I came home she’d have a cup of tea ready for me. She [01:18:50] understood very little English, but she knew everything that was going on with Home and Away and Neighbours. Somehow [01:18:55] when we used to get, she’d tell me exactly what’s happened when.

Payman Langroudi: Neighbours brought back memories. Yeah. [01:19:00]

Kaival Patel: So, um, and towards the latter part of her life, [01:19:05] she, um, she had dementia, you know, like quite, quite severe dementia. And [01:19:10] that was the part where everything started happening for us. So we, I got married, [01:19:15] had kids, had the practices. And, you know, I’d love her to be on that table to all [01:19:20] of that. Yeah. My, my Gujarati is terrible. So probably now it’s good. Actually, I’ve got Google Translate. [01:19:25] I can probably tell it properly, but when she lived with us, it was a lot better because that’s the only way we could [01:19:30] communicate. But I’d love her to be there and just for her to see the grandkids. And [01:19:35] and she always had this thing where she’d say, wherever your wishes [01:19:40] go and fulfil it. You know, in Gujarati, you know, my mum and dad might joke about [01:19:45] something and they’ll call me a dumbass or something like that. And she she would completely, you know, stop [01:19:50] them, you know, and just say, no, he’s not you know, he’s going to he’s going to do it. And [01:19:55] you know, I grew up with, with with her, you know, mom and dad are exceptional. But [01:20:00] she she literally was was that person so amazing. She’s person one. Person [01:20:05] two would be, um, I love cricket. [01:20:10] And I was thinking, you know, who could we have from from the sort of cricketing side [01:20:15] of things. And I love India. There’s Sachin Tendulkar, but the person that [01:20:20] I’d have there is a guy called Ms. Dhoni who was Indian captain for a while, [01:20:25] and I’d have him because he wasn’t necessarily the best player, [01:20:30] but he was a great leader, you know, and he managed to lead these these, you know, the [01:20:35] Indian team that won the World Cup and these sort of things. And I just love he had a lot of divas [01:20:40] and, you know big stars in the team. And he managed to gel these guys together and still come out [01:20:45] looking as cool as, as anything.

Payman Langroudi: Do you still play?

Kaival Patel: No, no, I don’t play anymore. [01:20:50] So both of my boys have have started playing now. And, you know, [01:20:55] my my dream will be to have at least one match where I played in the father son [01:21:00] match last year with, with one of them. And I was sore for about three weeks afterwards. It’s [01:21:05] just. But I want to become fit, actually. My big aim for this [01:21:10] year is actually to become fitter and be able to do just just 1 or 2 games with them, and [01:21:15] I loved it. Yeah, I used to love it. Um, so yeah, I’d have msdhoni. [01:21:20] And then the final person is a chap called Mo Gawdat, so. [01:21:25]

Payman Langroudi: I know Mo.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. And he was, he was sort of a chief business officer [01:21:30] with Google X. He’s done some out there things more recently. But [01:21:35] one, one of his, you know, earlier books was was the equation of happiness. [01:21:40] We talked about it earlier.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kaival Patel: And he lost his son Ali. Um, [01:21:45] you know, when when his son was young and, you know, one of the things you shouldn’t ever have to bury [01:21:50] your your children. Yeah, but he he pivoted at that point, and [01:21:55] he sort of tried to work out the equation on happiness, you know, um, and [01:22:00] super smart.

Payman Langroudi: But you’re right that normally those super smart guys aren’t spiritual in [01:22:05] the way that he is. But I’m a massive fan of the podcast Slow Mo. [01:22:10] Yeah, but I kind of go into these phases of I listen to like nine of them in a row, and then [01:22:15] I come out of it and then like when I go back to that podcast quite a lot, you know, like it’s on a [01:22:20] plane or something. Yeah. It’s weird. I don’t have it. Like during my day to day.

Kaival Patel: It really hit me, [01:22:25] you know, like and.

Payman Langroudi: He’s brilliant.

Kaival Patel: He’s brilliant. The way he speaks is brilliant. And I [01:22:30] think just. It was the first time really, I got into thinking about that happiness side of things. [01:22:35] You know, everything was just all the go all the time and and actually what [01:22:40] is everything for, you know, what is everything for, you know. So I think [01:22:45] that was a you know, I’d love to have him there and just pick his brains on the happiness side of [01:22:50] things. I think I’m constantly striving to to feel that contentment and, and, [01:22:55] you know, hopefully having him on the dinner table, I can bust his brains and, and [01:23:00] figure out, you know, some of some tips and tricks to, to get there.

Payman Langroudi: You know, in the same way as people have [01:23:05] personal trainers in the, in the gym, you know, there is there is space, there is it’s [01:23:10] important here to look at like therapy in a way that is like that, [01:23:15] like an optimisation. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: So so we had somebody recently I got from my [01:23:20] group. Oh really? Her name is Maya Raichura and she works on mental fitness and [01:23:25] it was much nicer.

Payman Langroudi: Way of looking at it, isn’t it? Mental fitness.

Kaival Patel: Visualisation and mental fitness [01:23:30] and actually getting her in and just having that, that session on it, you know, um, [01:23:35] it’s really important and it’s really valuable tools just to visualise that, you know, again, it’s one [01:23:40] of these things where some people think it’s a bit fluffy and whatever.

Payman Langroudi: No, listen. There is. There is a deficit. [01:23:45] Yeah, there is a deficit. I try and fill that deficit with food. Yeah, all the [01:23:50] time. Yeah, I try and fill that deficit with fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With ambition. [01:23:55] With all. But there is a deficit. Yeah, yeah. And if we if you can get back [01:24:00] to that deficit and say, hey. Okay. That’s all right. Whatever that is, that is [01:24:05] it. You thought you would never amount to something, or we had a revolution and ran away [01:24:10] or whatever it was. Yeah, yeah. I haven’t done the work myself to know. Right. But there’s definitely a deficit. Yeah [01:24:15] yeah yeah yeah yeah. But everyone has it. Everyone has [01:24:20] it. Yeah. Like, you know, there’s hardly anyone who’s so perfect. And so, you know, we [01:24:25] could. It’s just like. It’s like a personal trainer in the gym. Yeah. Even the guy who goes to the gym every day sometimes [01:24:30] uses a personal trainer. Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting you got that for your team? Yeah. Do they appreciate it?

Kaival Patel: Yeah, [01:24:35] I think they did. I think they did. Again, it’s different. It’s a bit different. But I wanted to focus [01:24:40] on like January for me is this hangover month? Generally in business, you know you have [01:24:45] Christmas. It’s always really busy and I wanted January to be ignition time for the team, right? So if [01:24:50] not everybody, there was only maybe 20 of our team there. And the morning was, um, [01:24:55] some clinical stuff. And then the afternoon was this. And the people that [01:25:00] really took it on board, you could see that, you know, when they when they left the room, their shoulders were, [01:25:05] were their, you know, their head was up high and they felt that. And some people didn’t quite get it in that [01:25:10] in that period of time. But then you can’t train that in a half a day.

Payman Langroudi: It is about you that makes [01:25:15] you like that, that turns you on so much.

Kaival Patel: I don’t know. [01:25:20] I don’t know. I enjoy that. You know, maybe it’s like a pleaser part of it, you know, like, [01:25:25] it could be that side of it.

Payman Langroudi: What about the being different piece? Why that? Have [01:25:30] you always been that?

Kaival Patel: Yeah. I don’t see it as being different. You know, you [01:25:35] like me.

Payman Langroudi: No. You do. You said. You said that. You know, we got the referral centre. We want to do something different, [01:25:40] you know, like.

Kaival Patel: For getting people out there.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kaival Patel: It’s fun to me. It’s fun to [01:25:45] me, you know, just something, something adventure. Something out there. That’s [01:25:50] the bit that does.

Payman Langroudi: Are you.

Kaival Patel: Easily.

Payman Langroudi: Bored?

Kaival Patel: Like like.

Payman Langroudi: I am. I’m easily bored. Not necessarily by [01:25:55] like actually I am by projects as well. But I just basically go everywhere, wherever I go. I feel like this [01:26:00] could have been so much better than, like a bad judge of places.

Kaival Patel: You’re [01:26:05] that guy, Payman. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, and so if that’s the case, then [01:26:10] it’s exciting to make the thing better, right? Than.

Kaival Patel: Well, I’ll go to places and I’ll [01:26:15] see. Could that thing fit into what we do, you know, like. Yeah. Is that a bit, you [01:26:20] know, that’s that’s something cool or that’s a nice social media trend or whatever else. Can we do something similar [01:26:25] to it?

Payman Langroudi: We were talking about Ken, you know, uh, Ken Finlayson. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: Fmc yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I [01:26:30] talked to him quite a lot. And you know, he’s much of what he did was bringing stuff from other industries [01:26:35] into dentistry, you know. Awards the top 50 that were directly out of the [01:26:40] The Times Top 50 list. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: It’s clever though, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: I mean, his [01:26:45] execution is amazing. Don’t get me wrong. Yeah. But but his his sort of genius [01:26:50] often was bringing stuff from other industries in. And you’re right, it’s one of the best [01:26:55] things you can do.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. But dentistry is so isolated. So actually, like I said, when we were [01:27:00] on that programme, there’s lots of different businesses. Actually businesses, all business is all very similar, [01:27:05] you know. So actually you can pull in different things.

Payman Langroudi: And what the bank said to [01:27:10] you, do you want to join the programme. Is that how did you get onto that programme?

Kaival Patel: It was on a whim and it changed [01:27:15] our life quite considerably. But Trina literally said, there’s this programme. It’s for, you know, entrepreneurs, [01:27:20] um, like.

Payman Langroudi: An accelerator thing.

Kaival Patel: Accelerator. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And she goes, I’m going to apply. [01:27:25] I said, okay, fine, apply. And then she applied and we had an interview to, to sort of get into it. We [01:27:30] went into it and I loved it. You know, I absolutely loved it.

Payman Langroudi: You know, when people say to me, [01:27:35] hey, I want to do some toothpaste, or hey, I want to do that. I normally now just off outsource to [01:27:40] just go join an accelerator, okay. Yeah. Because, because because you know, it’s you’ll be you’ll [01:27:45] figure it out whether you want to do that or not once you’re in this accelerator. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: And it was different. We [01:27:50] were we were already a little bit established, whereas a lot of these guys were Start-Ups. But it was the energy. [01:27:55] It was the energy that I loved. I loved the Start-Up energy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, whereas for us. And that [01:28:00] just just got us going, you know, a little bit more and and again, if when you’re just in Dental world, [01:28:05] you only think in Dental ways. So I actually want to go on something which [01:28:10] is completely external now and just again, just pick on really smart people in their minds [01:28:15] and different, different businesses to see what Drew’s.

Payman Langroudi: Going to a conference in September [01:28:20] in in Norway somewhere. Okay. It’s like a growth summit. [01:28:25] Business growth summit or something. Yeah. And it looked I figured, you know, he’s probably done his [01:28:30] research.

Kaival Patel: He’d know. He’d know. It’s good. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kaival Patel: And in his he’s mine. He’s ours. And [01:28:35] he’s he’s like, you know, 20, 20 times more. Just going to he’ll message me sometimes [01:28:40] and he’s got so many different things going on. But yeah, I think I think those things are invaluable really. [01:28:45] And it’s worth a go. What are you going to lose? Yeah. Of course.

Payman Langroudi: No, it’ll be fun.

Kaival Patel: It’ll be fun. Yeah. [01:28:50]

Payman Langroudi: Final question. Yeah. It’s deathbed.

Kaival Patel: Deathbed.

Payman Langroudi: Surrounded [01:28:55] by your loved ones many years from now. What are three pieces of advice [01:29:00] you’d leave them in the world?

Kaival Patel: Advice [01:29:05] for my children. For [01:29:10] people. It’s [01:29:15] a hard one, really. Honestly, when I. When I think of my children and think of me on the deathbed, [01:29:20] I want them to be happy. Everybody does right? I want them to be financially secure [01:29:25] the way my parents used to for us. And, you know, maybe we [01:29:30] didn’t discuss it so much earlier, but when we first got the practice, we were living paycheque to paycheque, you know, and [01:29:35] that was really scary times. And sometimes you need to go through [01:29:40] it to appreciate other stuff. But I want them to value money, [01:29:45] value their life, you know, go and try things. Hopefully [01:29:50] the position that I’m really hoping that we put them in is a little bit of a platform where they [01:29:55] can try things and not be worried about failing.

Payman Langroudi: How old are.

Kaival Patel: They? Nine. Seven [01:30:00] and two. Nine, seven and two.

Payman Langroudi: Would you want them to be dentists?

Kaival Patel: Not [01:30:05] bothered. I’m not bothered. You know, the two boys, the nine year old and seven year [01:30:10] old. They want to open an ice cream shop together. That’s. That’s their.

Payman Langroudi: Thing.

Kaival Patel: So, um, there’s [01:30:15] a there’s a chap in Milton Keynes who owns a sort of ice cream making factory, [01:30:20] and I think Serena was talking to somebody about it, and it happened to be him, and [01:30:25] he invited them over. So they created their own ice cream and all. This is so nice. But They [01:30:30] want to work together at this point, so we’ll see whether that works out.

Payman Langroudi: But how cool is that?

Kaival Patel: But you know and [01:30:35] that’s of their own. They’ve probably seen us do whatever we do. And whereas in when [01:30:40] I was growing up it was doctor dentist, you know, do something like that. So I think [01:30:45] if you’re going to do whatever you’re going to do, love it. You know. So my sister, she did pharmacy [01:30:50] and she ended up turning to interior designing because she just didn’t like pharmacy. [01:30:55] And she’s an amazing interior designer. And that was her talent, you know. So I don’t want to force them to do anything, [01:31:00] but I also don’t want them to waste any opportunity that that they get. So just and [01:31:05] just work hard, you know, work hard. I think a lot of people see practice ownership and [01:31:10] suddenly, you know, it’s that old cliche. It took 20 years to be an overnight success, you know, but [01:31:15] they don’t realise the hours that you need to do to, to get maybe the lifestyle that you get or that flexibility. [01:31:20] You’ve got to work bloody hard, you know, and work every hour that God gives you in that time, you know. Yes. [01:31:25] It might not help with burnout and these sort of things, but you got to work hard. So I think [01:31:30] work hard. You know, take the opportunities that you’re given. And, [01:31:35] um. And I just want them to be, you know, secure, really, and happy. Just [01:31:40] be happy.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. But let’s introduce another one. Yeah. Go on. What’s one thing that you would tell them to do that you didn’t do? Like [01:31:45] something you regret you didn’t do in your life?

Kaival Patel: Something [01:31:50] I regret that I didn’t do.

Payman Langroudi: You know, that question can be really taken in two ways. Yeah, [01:31:55] it’s I did this. It worked for me. I was kind to be kind, you know.

Kaival Patel: Mhm. [01:32:00]

Payman Langroudi: Or it can go another way. You could say I didn’t enlightened for instance. [01:32:05] Yeah. I didn’t take on finance. Outside finance. Right. And if my [01:32:10] son did a business I’d say take outside finance. Yeah. Life wise what would you [01:32:15] say. What’s what’s the thing that you you wish you’d done or you wished you will do in the future? I think go to the gym. [01:32:20] Right?

Kaival Patel: Yeah. Yeah. So I think health is important, right? Health is important. I’ve hit 40. [01:32:25] And, you know, there’s a lot of things now which I wish I had done health wise, that that [01:32:30] would improve my life going forward. You know, we hopefully have a, you know, more comfortable life. And, [01:32:35] you know, the aim is whenever we retire and doing all those things. But actually, if I don’t have [01:32:40] my health, all the things that we’ve sort of gone into, I’m not going to enjoy that time with, with people. [01:32:45] So yeah, you’re absolutely right. Health. Health. And also again, it’s it’s make [01:32:50] mistakes quickly.

Payman Langroudi: And they’d be worried about.

Kaival Patel: Don’t be worried about it. You know make it quickly. You know [01:32:55] I think people are going to do it. You’re going to learn lots of things and don’t regret any [01:33:00] mistakes that you make. You know, people have this, especially if you’re a bit negative mindset. You [01:33:05] just dwell on the mistake that you made for ten years and you’ve suddenly stopped you going forward. So yeah, you’ve [01:33:10] made it. So what?

Payman Langroudi: You’re going forward but facing backwards, right? So you end up hitting your head on the lamppost. [01:33:15] Yeah. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: I like that. I might have to steal that one though.

Kaival Patel: But [01:33:20] but it’s absolutely that. So yeah. Look forward be positive and [01:33:25] um, and make mistakes quickly if you’re going to make them.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive pleasure. I’ve [01:33:30] always loved spending time with you. You can always, always learn with you, but particularly in [01:33:35] this context. So thanks. Thanks so much for coming on.

Kaival Patel: I really appreciate you having me on. Thanks, man. [01:33:40]

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [01:33:45] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:33:50] Your hosts Payman Langroudi [01:33:55] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this [01:34:00] far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for [01:34:05] actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m [01:34:10] assuming you got some value out of it.

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