Payman chats with Kaival Patel, the dynamic force behind Kana Health Group. Kaival opens up about his journey from an enthusiastic associate dentist to the leader of a thriving dental empire comprising five large practices and 130 staff members. 

With refreshing candour, he shares the challenges of creating a positive culture, the emotional lows of practice ownership, and his innovative approaches to team building and referral marketing. 

What truly shines through is Kaival’s passion for developing people and creating workplaces where positivity becomes the foundation for success.

 

In This Episode

00:01:40 – Practice culture and family vibe across multiple locations
00:04:15 – North Star: Establishing positivity and respect as core values
00:09:50 – Evolution vs. revolution in practice acquisitions
00:12:35 – Growing as a leader and management evolution
00:16:30 – The Kana Cup: Points for positivity team system
00:19:20 – Handling resistance to new ideas
00:24:20 – Hiring for attitude over skill
00:30:15 – Business structure and organisation
00:40:35 – Pursuing peace vs. potential
00:53:05 – Creating a referral centre
00:57:45 – The hamper drop: Innovative referral marketing
01:04:00 – Career evolution and identity crisis
01:14:15 – Fantasy dinner party
01:28:55 – Last days and legacy

 

About Kaival Patel

Kaival is the co-director of Kana Health Group, which operates five large dental practices with 28-29 chairs across Milton Keynes, employing approximately 130 team members. 

Originally from a family of Ugandan Asian immigrants who valued education above all, Kaival transitioned from clinical dentistry to business leadership after experiencing eye health issues during COVID. 

Together with his wife Serena, he has developed the Kana Academy, an educational institution providing high-quality dental training in Milton Keynes.

Payman Langroudi: People often ask me about the best way to increase their whitening in their practice. I’ve [00:00:05] got all the numbers in front of me. I can see sometimes in the same practice, one dentist doing ten times as much whitening [00:00:10] as the one next door. The dentists who do the most whitening are the ones who talk about whitening the most. [00:00:15] That seems kind of obvious, but there’s a group of patients who I would call the lowest hanging [00:00:20] fruit. Patients who come in every six months needing nothing at all. I would definitely ask those patients, [00:00:25] you need nothing because you’re brilliant. Have you ever thought about whitening your teeth? We’re asking everyone Enlighten online training. [00:00:30] Join us for an hour of clinical and marketing tips. Swap unpredictability [00:00:35] with delighted patients and higher margins. Enlighten online training.com. [00:00:40] Let’s get to the pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:45] is Dental Leaders, the [00:00:50] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [00:00:55] Your hosts Payman Langroudi [00:01:00] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to [00:01:05] welcome Keval Patel onto the podcast of Cana [00:01:10] Health Group, which is a group of five big practices [00:01:15] in and around Milton Keynes, and the Cana Academy, which is an education [00:01:20] spin off from that group. Massive pleasure to have you, my buddy.

Kaival Patel: Thank you for having me. [00:01:25] Payman. Yeah. Really an honour to be here.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Thanks for coming all the way.

Kaival Patel: No, no, [00:01:30] it’s not far. Milton Keynes to to London. Very easy. 30 minutes. We’re here. A little [00:01:35] bit of a delay on the on the trains, but yeah. No, no issues whatsoever.

Payman Langroudi: This [00:01:40] probably go into the backstory, all that. But sometimes I’ve got a burning question. And my burning question [00:01:45] for you is around the vibe in the practices. Yeah. Because I’ve [00:01:50] visited and I know how hard it is to keep a culture going even [00:01:55] in one building like the one you’re in right now. Have you managed to keep [00:02:00] that sort of family vibe going across five big practices [00:02:05] with how many employees now?

Kaival Patel: About 130. Yeah. [00:02:10] What about 130?

Payman Langroudi: Was it on purpose or by mistake? Because you certainly have that. I don’t see that with many corporates [00:02:15] or many corporates.

Kaival Patel: The vibe. I don’t know if you remember actually Payman we [00:02:20] met in Alicante. We were grabbing a coffee in between.

Payman Langroudi: How could I forget?

Kaival Patel: And, [00:02:25] um, in between, I came up to you and I don’t think we’d spoken to many times [00:02:30] before that. And I said to you, you probably thought I was trying to blow smoke [00:02:35] up your ass. But I said to you, Payman a day you came to my practice actually changed [00:02:40] our life. What? Yeah. And I’m serious. I’m serious.

Payman Langroudi: So I really thought you were joking. [00:02:45]

Kaival Patel: No, no no, no. So, uh. And again, this was many years ago. You came and [00:02:50] we’d recently taken over a big practice, our first practice. And I was [00:02:55] Uber enthusiastic. I wanted to introduce enlighten and loads of different things there. And [00:03:00] you came to speak to the the associates at the time and they [00:03:05] they had none of it. And I remember you were you were sitting in we had an upstairs [00:03:10] waiting room at that time sitting really regal. I had this really vivid picture in my crossed [00:03:15] legs. And you were talking to these guys and they just grilled you for an [00:03:20] hour. And I felt so embarrassed to have invited you to the practice to try and implement, [00:03:25] you know, a new system. And and yeah, people were just not on [00:03:30] board. They didn’t want to change. And these were all associates that we had [00:03:35] inherited when we’d taken either practice. Some of them were ex owners, um, and they just didn’t like change. [00:03:40] And I think a big, you know, I learned a massive lesson that day, [00:03:45] um, through the embarrassment side of it is I don’t want that culture, you know, I [00:03:50] don’t want that culture. Um, and we’ll probably go through, you know, when we took over the practice [00:03:55] later on. But, you know, it really, I hated [00:04:00] that. I hated that vibe. I hated going to work at that point. It was my own practice, and I hated it. And [00:04:05] I made a conscious decision to talk to my wife, Serena, who’s also the code director. And at [00:04:10] that time, we just had the two practices. And I said, this has got to change. And [00:04:15] that from that moment onwards, things started to change. It took a while to [00:04:20] to really get, you know, the culture change. And what did you do?

Payman Langroudi: What did you.

Kaival Patel: Do? First part [00:04:25] was, um, allowing them to leave and not having the, the, [00:04:30] the people there that weren’t on board with us. But I think also there wasn’t [00:04:35] really we didn’t have a North Star, to be honest. You know, we took over a practice and we didn’t really [00:04:40] know what we were doing. It was just the dumb thing to do. And, um, and, you know, [00:04:45] I had all these dreams and aspirations, but there wasn’t really a guiding North Star. And [00:04:50] what we changed was that North Star, which was positivity and respect, and [00:04:55] we really started to implement that and people that weren’t necessarily on board with it. Then [00:05:00] we had to move them out. Yeah. And people and then hire people that were on board [00:05:05] with it. You know, and that it doesn’t happen overnight. But actually once you start [00:05:10] getting that and you start getting that reputation, people start joining you because of that, and suddenly it’s a lot easier. It’s a bit of a [00:05:15] snowball effect. Um, but that’s what we did. We we ended up, you know, anybody who wasn’t really [00:05:20] on board with it, anybody wasn’t really on board with the things that we’re trying to. It doesn’t mean they were bad people. [00:05:25] Not at all, actually. They were brilliant dentists, brilliant people, but they weren’t aligned with what we were trying to [00:05:30] do. Yeah. And that made every day really difficult at that point. So. So yeah. Thank you man. [00:05:35]

Payman Langroudi: Okay okay. But you kind of in your let’s just spell it out in your head. Yeah. [00:05:40] You started breaking the team down into sort of essential and non-essential people. [00:05:45] People that were going to keep, you know, as you say, be on, on, on message [00:05:50] and be with you. Yeah. And the ones who weren’t. So then, as a operator, [00:05:55] did you manage those guys out? Did you try and change some of them and [00:06:00] realise they weren’t changeable?

Kaival Patel: Yeah. So again, like I said, it happened over a number of years. Yeah. And [00:06:05] initially, you know, there we had when we took over Oxford House which was our first practice, [00:06:10] seven surgeries. Three. And I like I said, you know, we were, we were rabbit in [00:06:15] headlights really. And they taught us a lot actually at that point, the ex-owners, you know, we didn’t [00:06:20] know about ordering. And, you know, a lot of the compliance part of things.

Payman Langroudi: Were you working in the practice at all? [00:06:25]

Kaival Patel: I started yeah, as soon.

Payman Langroudi: As the associate. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: So I was, you know, [00:06:30] again, like I said, Uber enthusiastic. I bought a cbct machine before I bought the practice. Ready for day [00:06:35] one. But again, that that sort of shows the, the disruption [00:06:40] that happened when I sort of came in. I’d been waiting for this practice for so long. Uh, due diligence [00:06:45] takes ages and so on. And I had just done a master’s in implants. I wanted my, [00:06:50] my main aim was just to to focus on implants and Invisalign and sedation. [00:06:55] Those were my sort of key things. So I bought the cbct ready to plonk in on day one. This [00:07:00] practice hadn’t really, you know, changed anything over the last 15, 20 years [00:07:05] for a long, long time and doing really, really well. And and yeah, caused [00:07:10] massive sort of disruption in and around there. Um, so yeah, I mean [00:07:15] it took a, it took a while to understand it all, to figure [00:07:20] it out, figure out how the practice works. Um, and then we moved forward into, [00:07:25] you know, a few years afterwards. And I was really scared, [00:07:30] to be honest. So I was scared to implement any changes. I was embarrassed after a few times, like yourself coming [00:07:35] here and so on, and it was really hard to implement something new. And actually at that point we [00:07:40] thought, well, this must be what practice life is like, you know, because you don’t know any different. And [00:07:45] there wasn’t really the same, you know, there wasn’t the same sort of social media and access to [00:07:50] information to everything.

Payman Langroudi: Which was.

Kaival Patel: This quickly. So we took over the practice in 2015, [00:07:55] and it was probably going into 2017, 2018. So it [00:08:00] happened, you know, over a quite a long period of time. 2017 is when we took over our second [00:08:05] practice and then. Yeah, so so then [00:08:10] I suddenly grew a pair and realised that when we wanted to implement things, you [00:08:15] know, I, I needed to be stronger with it, you know. So explain why. [00:08:20] Explain what the benefit is. And actually, you know, even little things like uniform. I was desperate [00:08:25] to change the uniform, you know, in the practice and just have nice, fresh, clean scrubs. [00:08:30] Um, and I remember when we, when we sort of first, you know, introduced it and one of the, [00:08:35] the owners was like, oh, is this what we’re going to have to wear? You know? And I was really [00:08:40] excited, you know, like this, this is the way it has to go. So eventually it was a case of [00:08:45] nope. Um, you know, this is what we stand for. And actually, I had a conversation with this person when [00:08:50] I, when I sort of reached my, my tether with her and I said, look, to be honest, [00:08:55] you’re the reason at the moment that I’m not enjoying coming to work. You make me feel uncomfortable being in my own [00:09:00] practice. Wow. You know, and and again, this person, not a bad person whatsoever. [00:09:05] It’s just how they were built. You know, and this.

Payman Langroudi: Was one of the ex owners.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. Yeah. [00:09:10] Um, pseudo ex owner. Probably keep it. Keep it that way. I don’t want to, you know, say [00:09:15] anything bad against anybody, but, um. But, yeah, I just said, look, I’m not comfortable [00:09:20] being in my own practice. And that person, she was, she she was really upset [00:09:25] that I said that because she genuinely didn’t mean that for that to be the case. Yeah. Um, [00:09:30] and then I think that sort of started the process of her, you know, edging out to her retirement [00:09:35] and, um, and stopping that way. But I used to just work wherever there was [00:09:40] a spare surgery, I wouldn’t have my set surgery and just have implant referrals coming [00:09:45] over to me, and that was sort of practice life at that point.

Payman Langroudi: This is a very important learning point for [00:09:50] people who want to buy practices, right? I’ve never bought a practice, so I can’t [00:09:55] talk with authority on it. But there’s the [00:10:00] two basic notions of evolution or revolution. [00:10:05] Yeah. Do you come in, smash everything down and rebrand [00:10:10] and rename and you know, the whole thing and say, this is what it’s going to [00:10:15] be like straight away? Or do you come in and make no noise? [00:10:20] Almost make sure that patients don’t realise there’s been a change in management [00:10:25] so that the staff don’t have a problem. Very simple. Keep everything the same [00:10:30] for six months one year six. Some people, you know extends for longer, right? Yeah. Learn [00:10:35] everything you can and then start to evolve the changes. And I always used to think that [00:10:40] was the right way. But Dev Beth Patel. His notion is smash [00:10:45] it down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it’s interesting because if there’s a culture that’s [00:10:50] pervasive, it’s been there for 20 years. Sometimes smashing it down might be the [00:10:55] best move. Yeah, but it’s high risk. It’s high risk. High risk.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. So we [00:11:00] adopt something in between now? Yeah. You know. So. But, you know, we’ve [00:11:05] learned little bits along every sort of practice purchase. And the first thing we actually tell, you know, any new [00:11:10] acquisition is what we’re going to do is we’re going to observe for a while because there might be loads of things that [00:11:15] you guys do that I want to implement. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but at the end of three months or six months [00:11:20] or however long we feel we’re going to have a meeting again and say, right, these are the new things that we’re going [00:11:25] to change, you know, and use that word. Make them comfortable with that word. Um, [00:11:30] we might change things. We might keep things the same, but we’re going to go through it with you guys after this period of time. [00:11:35] And then actually we do observe for those few months, you know, unless there’s something drastically wrong that’s happening [00:11:40] in and around there. We let the the team get used to us and we [00:11:45] get used to the team. And because often again, a lot of the places that we’ve. Taken over are [00:11:50] principal led practices. So having somebody offsite. Um, [00:11:55] you know, who’s not there day in, day out is really a challenge to to. The system. So, so yeah. So [00:12:00] so we tell them yeah we’re probably going to. Look to change. Um, and I guess we’re fortunate now [00:12:05] because we’ve got quite. Good reputation in and around the area. People already know you know that. What [00:12:10] we’re about, you know, um, and so they probably expect some of it, but they also [00:12:15] hear the good vibes. They. Hear, hear about the positivity. They hear about the development side of things that we’re really massive into. [00:12:20] So I now found there’s a bit of excitement, you know, from, from a lot of people, um, [00:12:25] people that have maybe been there for a long, long time and really are just averse to change. It’s [00:12:30] hard.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got a good question for you. You said when I grew some balls like so almost. [00:12:35] That’s almost like an evolution of you, your management style. Yeah. And [00:12:40] by the way, you know what got you too? Got you. There is not going [00:12:45] to get you to the next stage, let’s say. Let’s say you say, hey, listen, I want to go for the [00:12:50] 50 practices. It’s a whole different set of skills. You’ll need to get to 50 than to five. [00:12:55] So there is an evolution of management style as you learn yourself as a manager and [00:13:00] a leader.

Kaival Patel: Massively, massively.

Payman Langroudi: But now, between you and your wife, [00:13:05] what’s her name?

Kaival Patel: Serena.

Payman Langroudi: Serena. Yeah. Are you the good cop? And she’s the bad cop, or [00:13:10] is it. Have you broken into those kind of things or. I’ve got another very important [00:13:15] question on top here. Now, when you’re looking for practices, are [00:13:20] you the sort of cold numbers guy or [00:13:25] are you actually looking for practices where you don’t have to make too many changes? Does that does that raise the price [00:13:30] a little bit? If the culture’s already good?

Kaival Patel: No, I haven’t seen too [00:13:35] many practices that have our culture. So yeah. [00:13:40] So, so I think in terms of and you don’t really know, you can’t. [00:13:45]

Payman Langroudi: Really.

Kaival Patel: Tell.

Payman Langroudi: Until.

Kaival Patel: You’re there, until you’re there, you know, it might look great on the outside and everything else, [00:13:50] but you don’t really know until you’re there.

Payman Langroudi: So small town like Milton Keynes, when you’re so involved [00:13:55] in the Dental world, right? Nurses, receptionists, practice managers every [00:14:00] single practice in the town has a reputation that you can get access to.

Kaival Patel: To an [00:14:05] element, to an element. Again, you don’t. It’s the nitty gritty of the culture that you actually need to know. You [00:14:10] know, it’s actually is there one person who stirs the pot that’s the bit that you need to [00:14:15] to get to quickly rather than, you know, they might they might all look out for each other or to [00:14:20] an extent or, you know, really like the principal dentist that’s there and that sort of thing. But actually [00:14:25] it’s, it’s it’s the finer points and it’s also who are, who’s going to [00:14:30] look to join us in terms of what we’re trying to do. You know, who’s that? Social events that we look to do. [00:14:35] Do they believe in that. You know, that side of things. Do they believe in the positivity side of things? So, you know, a lot [00:14:40] of, you know, I talk to lots of people and they might, you know, I see their their eyes sort [00:14:45] of glaze over a little bit in that, you know, that’s all this fluffy stuff that you’re talking about. Positivity. How does that equate to [00:14:50] numbers? Um, so and some people and some dentists and, you know, some [00:14:55] practice owners, for example, they don’t quite get that part of it. So I think, I [00:15:00] don’t know until I’m there to.

Payman Langroudi: You know, Kunala love teeth.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The, [00:15:05] you know, he has much less trouble getting associates to work for him. Yeah. Than [00:15:10] comparable practices. Yeah. Because at the moment you walk into that place, you [00:15:15] know, this is a great place to work. Yeah, yeah. And that’s the feeling I got from yours as well. And [00:15:20] one way he does it, he does it in many ways. But one way he does it is by [00:15:25] overstaffing.

Kaival Patel: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. There’s more humans around than, than [00:15:30] you would find in a normal practice. Yeah. And I kind of like that because [00:15:35] you just in a practice. I feel like this is not enough humans, you know, number one. Yeah. [00:15:40] But also he does things like surprise and delight for his nurses. That gets them. There was one [00:15:45] person. There was a time where there was one person’s whole job was to find deals for the for [00:15:50] the staff locally. So their staff would get like spa [00:15:55] memberships at half price. Yeah. You know, this sort of thing.

Kaival Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. So interesting. [00:16:00]

Kaival Patel: It’s really. And we do the same thing. So I think we’re just not. And I think a lot of people [00:16:05] do it as well. They’re just probably not vocal enough about it. Yeah, yeah. Um, so yeah, we did the same thing. [00:16:10] We went to local businesses and just just to have almost like a team card that they can use and [00:16:15] have discounts on, on certain things. Um, but I think for us it’s, it’s getting it [00:16:20] into the day to day. Um, so we, we have this, um, you know, uh, innovation, [00:16:25] I guess, which was the Connor Cup. And, and really, you [00:16:30] get points for positivity. Okay. Yeah. And So, you know, area manager or [00:16:35] or, uh, you know, the the manager will sit with the Harry Potter Sorting hat at the start of the year, [00:16:40] put everybody into four houses, and they’ve decided the names of these houses between them. [00:16:45] And each of the practice has these four houses and and you just so it’s not KPI [00:16:50] driven, it’s not money driven, it’s purely points for positivity. So helping each other [00:16:55] out at the end of the day, um, Google reviews with your names on it and having having a patient that’s had a really [00:17:00] good experience and you get these these points for these little things. Practice manager has a certain number [00:17:05] of points that they can give out if they see, you know, something really positive happening within the practice and what [00:17:10] it did. And then at the end of the quarter, marketing manager will rock up with the prize wheel and they’ll spin the prize wheel [00:17:15] winning team will get something small, you know, like a lunch or a bowling or these sort of things.

Payman Langroudi: Kudos.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. [00:17:20] And then at the end of the year, we’ve got the Kano Awards and there’s a big sort of Champions League trophy that the [00:17:25] winning, winning, winning team gets. And to be honest, those [00:17:30] sort of things. Firstly, it gets a bit of friendly competition between some of the team members, [00:17:35] but the main thing is it gets them working together. Yet they have a team captain. That team captain sort of, [00:17:40] you know, spurs it on and we notice things like that bring bring the teams [00:17:45] closer together. And then when we have group related events then so we have a Kano [00:17:50] Olympics. So in the middle of the year sports day you know, and then you get points for these [00:17:55] sort of things. And what have you learned.

Payman Langroudi: What have you learnt about announcing new [00:18:00] ideas like that to your team without I mean, you know, you said the one person who’s stirring [00:18:05] the pot. Yeah. Let’s say you’re in a meeting with 20 of them and say, hey, I’ve got a new idea. The Kano Olympics, [00:18:10] that one person can destroy that idea there and then by making a noise [00:18:15] or a face or whatever. What have you learnt about how to introduce new ideas [00:18:20] to the team? So for them to take it on and really get the best out of the idea.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, [00:18:25] you’re right. And that one person can destroy it. So we’re really quick To [00:18:30] to have a conversation with whoever we feel that one person is. So [00:18:35] let’s say we have that.

Payman Langroudi: Before the announcement. No, no.

Kaival Patel: So let’s say we’ve had an announcement [00:18:40] and we noticed that face.

Payman Langroudi: That face. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: So we will have a conversation with that person afterwards. Just [00:18:45] saying look, we noticed it. You didn’t look that enthused. Is there something going on? You know, and it could [00:18:50] be something personal. It could be something else. Um, and then we’ll say, look, do you think it’s a bad idea? [00:18:55] Because actually, what we’re trying to do is bring the team together for x, Y, z. And this is what we feel [00:19:00] is going to do. And it’s a really nice thing to do. And we feel it’s a really nice thing to do. So is there anything [00:19:05] that you have against it? And we might hash it out. Normally it’s no and it’s this sort of sheepish [00:19:10] look down and you get a couple of strikes with that. And then we’ll have a conversation [00:19:15] about whether, you know, this is working for us.

Payman Langroudi: And these are these are conversations [00:19:20] you weren’t having in the first practice. You were just like, you know, shy and worried and didn’t want [00:19:25] to rock the boat.

Kaival Patel: It was it was not rocking the boat. Yeah. And it was not knowing what we didn’t know. And I think [00:19:30] over time we sort of grew in confidence with that part of it. And it sounds like we’re really militant about being positive, [00:19:35] but it just sort of happens. It actually the vibes are really good in the practices. And it’s [00:19:40] not just Serena and I, you know, so we hire managers, you hire.

Payman Langroudi: For it. [00:19:45]

Kaival Patel: For it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So attitude. You mean.

Kaival Patel: Attitude. Absolutely. Based on attitude.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:19:50] do you tell. Well like tell me that man.

Kaival Patel: So firstly just the [00:19:55] conversation you know. So conversation wise. And I’ll explain to them this, this image [00:20:00] I have of kind of health group and what we’re trying to do. And don’t get me wrong, we’re not 100% there. We’re definitely 100%.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [00:20:05] this occasional humans who just tell. You can tell. Yeah. So what do you do? Do you, do you [00:20:10] see many, many, many, many until you come across that one that you can just see the spark. Or [00:20:15] are you the type of person who can develop like, you know, people who [00:20:20] are 6 or 7 out of ten into nine out of ten, like, how do you look at that? Do you only want to hire [00:20:25] these superstars and you let loads go and no no no no no. We interview [00:20:30] a.

Kaival Patel: Lot. Yeah we.

Payman Langroudi: Do. Constantly interviewing I guess.

Kaival Patel: No not.

Payman Langroudi: We.

Kaival Patel: I mean, when we have a position [00:20:35] we won’t jump into that that hiring process. But you’re absolutely right. You don’t know until they’re in [00:20:40] place. So what we then do is a one week review. Two week review, three weeks, four weeks, two [00:20:45] months, three months. And during that process, we’re quick to say, okay, look, [00:20:50] you know, this is what we might, you know, have thought you could have done in this scenario. And this [00:20:55] is how we can coach you. This is how we can help you develop that side of it. And if their attitude is good, [00:21:00] then there’s no problems. You know, it’s when they sometimes they might think, [00:21:05] you know, oh, I’ve done this in another place and I know exactly what those people are really [00:21:10] good with systems and processes sometimes and maybe KPIs and, you know, corporate sort of [00:21:15] lingo and everything else. But they’re not necessarily the best people for the people and for us. [00:21:20] We want the managers to really develop the people side of it, because actually, what’s the biggest stress? [00:21:25]

Payman Langroudi: People.

Kaival Patel: People you know. So if you can take away that as much [00:21:30] as you can, the element of stress with the people and be the person that walks the shop floor. Go and say, [00:21:35] see everybody. Go and talk to everybody. Go and see how they are. And sometimes it is that conversation [00:21:40] of, you know, leaving personal stuff at the door. Work is work, but we still help [00:21:45] you out as in whatever way we can. But it is that people side of it. And and [00:21:50] that’s the bit I think we can we can help develop them. Kpis, all these things people [00:21:55] generally can learn, you know, and you just develop systems and processes for that. You make [00:22:00] it, you know, idiot proof guide as to what it is. And I need an idiot proof guide when it comes to systems and processes [00:22:05] and these sort of things. So I understand that element of it. But the people side is the bit where [00:22:10] you don’t know, after two conversations with somebody how great you are with with people, you [00:22:15] have to be, you know, you have to be given the chance in the practice. Yeah. Um, but actually what [00:22:20] we try and say to them as well is, look, it’s our voice, but we [00:22:25] don’t want there to be a them and us scenario. So you have to own that message, you know? So let’s [00:22:30] say we’re trying to implement something and you got to tell the team, yeah, you have to believe in it. And if you don’t believe it, talk to us [00:22:35] now. You know, and tell me the bits that you don’t quite understand or believe in or whatever, because [00:22:40] you have to own that message. And if they own it, then it’s not. Cable and Serena have said, go do this. [00:22:45] It’s we’re going to do this because of x, y, z. And I think that’s important.

Payman Langroudi: But then [00:22:50] how do you handle it when that person says, yeah, yeah, I don’t like the name Olympics. Can we change it to [00:22:55] tour de tour? The tour? The tour de France. Yeah. [00:23:00] And we get that a lot. No, no, but do you know what I mean? When it’s. Let’s say it’s a bad idea. Yeah. [00:23:05] An idea that wouldn’t work across the whole group. Now, now you have to hand. You have to [00:23:10] sort of empathise. You have to get that in. Yeah. And then say it’s a bad idea. And then without [00:23:15] ruining that person’s like, creativity.

Kaival Patel: And we’ve got [00:23:20] a big belief as well that we can try things and it can fail. It’s all right. [00:23:25] And actually, it’s just this this evolutionary cycle. Right? You try it, it might [00:23:30] not work and then improve it a little bit. And actually, if it completely floods, it’s all right. At least we’ve tried it and we’ve tried to [00:23:35] be innovative and we try something different. And you know, there’s plenty of things that don’t quite work out. Um, [00:23:40] and you try it. And that part we empower the team, you know. So if they [00:23:45] have any ideas like that. Yeah, we’ll give it a go. As long as it’s, you know, not going to cost my kidney and house [00:23:50] and everything else to to go with it, you know, let’s, let’s give it a go or give a version of it a go [00:23:55] and then and then try it if it’s the name and these sort of things, you know, there’s far [00:24:00] more smarter people than me in the team. You know, we’ve got an amazing marketing manager, we’ve got a head of growth and development, and [00:24:05] these guys have that creative spark. Yeah, people. Um, so I’ve got a trust in them [00:24:10] as well. Right? It can’t just be careful, you know, deciding all the things and we’ll give it a go and [00:24:15] go from there.

Payman Langroudi: So give me the, the sort of the stats, the snapshot of where we’re at right now [00:24:20] with the group. With the group numbers, I don’t mean necessarily money, [00:24:25] but I’m talking about people, clinicians, non-clinicians just [00:24:30] the whole thing. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: So yeah, five practices, about 28, 29 [00:24:35] chairs between those five practices. Wow. 130 ish [00:24:40] people between them. So maybe 40 odd clinicians and the [00:24:45] rest are employed team members. Um, and [00:24:50] yeah, they’re all big, big places. Um, and one of the practices of partnership practice. [00:24:55] So we own with another associate of mine and.

Payman Langroudi: The org chart outside of, you know, dentists, [00:25:00] receptionists above on the, on the, on the corporate level. What’s the org chart?

Kaival Patel: It’s a really good question [00:25:05] because actually I find when I talk to other group sizes similar to ours, that’s the [00:25:10] bit where it’s tricky at this stage. Um, so we’ve previously had a head of operations. [00:25:15] We’ve had, um, you know, lots of different sort of almost corporate [00:25:20] style jobs. And right now there’s Srini and I as directors. Srini is very [00:25:25] much, you know, into the operations side of the business. I’m focussed on growth and development [00:25:30] side of things, and I’ll probably focus more on the clinicians in terms of getting [00:25:35] them growing and developing. Then we’ve got a head of growth and development. We’ve got somebody [00:25:40] who is in charge of projects and that could be literally anything.

Payman Langroudi: We have one. Yeah, we [00:25:45] have one.

Kaival Patel: And then we have a marketing manager and and her assistant. And [00:25:50] that’s actually in effect the senior management sort of team or the management team. And then we [00:25:55] have the practice managers in each practice area manager. So we don’t anymore. No, [00:26:00] no.

Payman Langroudi: You had one.

Kaival Patel: We had area managers and and we found [00:26:05] that’s the difficulty, I think, of where we are at the moment. So as [00:26:10] we add probably 1 or 2 more sides or it becomes a bit more spread out, then [00:26:15] I think we will probably need somebody. But actually at the moment, Serena tends to do a lot [00:26:20] of that, and she’ll go to the practices. And the main role of the area manager we find is is supporting the practice [00:26:25] managers, but empowering them, you know, and sometimes you can have area managers who mollycoddle [00:26:30] the practice managers. They don’t want to do that. I’ll take it over for you because it’s easy, it’s quick, and they’re [00:26:35] really busy, right? They’re trying to look after X number of people. And we found that actually [00:26:40] what we want to do is focus the next year or so with Serena empowering the practice managers. Get them to the [00:26:45] level that they, you know, we really want them to be. And then and then probably [00:26:50] step away a little bit and have a look if we had a few more sites, um, you know, practices at that [00:26:55] point and I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Know if you heard the conversation I had with Anushka.

Kaival Patel: Yes, I did, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So she said of [00:27:00] the mirror for the, for people. But she said she’s got I don’t know what it is. What was it, 37, [00:27:05] 42, 42, 4242 practices. Yeah. And [00:27:10] she said 5 or 6 was a real moment, that things get a lot easier [00:27:15] after 5 or 6. It’s interesting.

Kaival Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I said, why? She said something regarding this [00:27:20] about how the numbers just work better when there’s more than five or so up to. She said up to 5 or [00:27:25] 6. You’re running and running and running. Yeah. Um, both of you have stopped [00:27:30] practising now?

Kaival Patel: Yes. We have. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So how much are you [00:27:35] working on it, and how much are you not? I mean, are you are you working on it? [00:27:40] Is it is it harder work than when you were a dentist or.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. I don’t think [00:27:45] I’d say it’s harder. I think it’s different, you know. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Are you five days a week? Six days? Are you?

Kaival Patel: Yeah. [00:27:50]

Payman Langroudi: Evenings.

Kaival Patel: All the time. And you know when when you’re married to the other director as well.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. Our conversations [00:27:55] are either about work or about the kids. Yeah. You know that that tends to be what [00:28:00] we’re about. And then we, you know, we’ll have our own chill time and watching Netflix and these sort of things that we like. The [00:28:05] same sort of stuff. But yeah, it’s it’s hard. It is hard, but it’s a different hard, you [00:28:10] know, and it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Not turning, turning up every morning at 830 for a patient.

Kaival Patel: Exactly. [00:28:15] Yeah. Yeah. It’s not the same sort of time constraints as that, but there is no time. Yeah. [00:28:20] You know, my lunchtime, in effect, is when the kids come home at 5 or 6:00 and I [00:28:25] try and have dinner with them, but then I go back to work, you know, afterwards. Yeah. If I’m doing interviews [00:28:30] or these sort of things in the evening. Well, to be honest, you see us and you took a picture of us and there’s three on one side. [00:28:35] I’m on the other with laptops on our laps, covering emails or figuring out what we’re doing with the next, you know, [00:28:40] whatever we’re doing. And so the first hardest part, though, was the [00:28:45] identity crisis I had when I stopped doing clinical work.

Payman Langroudi: Me too.

Kaival Patel: Me too. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s hard. [00:28:50]

Kaival Patel: Yeah. How did you. How did you get over it?

Payman Langroudi: Well, you know, I was hardly doing any [00:28:55] dentistry whatsoever, but I just wasn’t willing to say I’ve stopped. [00:29:00] I just wasn’t willing to do it. Even though I’d stopped before. But before I knew I was coming back. [00:29:05] This time, it was that question of, am I going to stop? And you really class yourself as a dentist, [00:29:10] you know? Yeah.

Kaival Patel: You do. And that’s your whole identity, right? Yes. When you go to family barbecues [00:29:15] and weddings and you’re introduced as the.

Payman Langroudi: Taxi driver asks you, what do you do? I [00:29:20] still say dentist, by the way. It sounds better than syringe guy.

Kaival Patel: But [00:29:25] there’s a lot of different connotations with that one.

Payman Langroudi: But I think the real key point for [00:29:30] me was when I realised I can always come back. Yeah. And that really just made me [00:29:35] think, oh, okay, no problem, I can, I can leave if I need to. I can always [00:29:40] come back. Yeah. How about you? So how did you handle it?

Kaival Patel: So? So the reason I became non-clinical [00:29:45] wasn’t quite the business side. The business part followed. It was I had a dodgy eye. [00:29:50] So during Covid, um, well, actually, in my 20s, early 20s, [00:29:55] I found out that I had this eye condition. I was that guy at the eye hospital where they bring [00:30:00] all the students to come and have a look, because there’s something weird going on and trying to poke and prod and figure out what it is. [00:30:05] Um, and then during Covid, it must be with the stress of everything. And yeah, it [00:30:10] really deteriorated. So to the point where I couldn’t really see the number plate in front of me, and [00:30:15] I thought because everything was closed, I thought I just needed to change my glasses. I went to the optician. They were like, [00:30:20] no, no, you need to see an ophthalmologist and figure it out. I knew at that point it was the condition that’s [00:30:25] really flared up, and I decided that.

Payman Langroudi: What was the condition?

Kaival Patel: So it’s called theisen’s punctate [00:30:30] keratosis. Keratosis keratitis. In effect, it’s protein plaques on the eye. And [00:30:35] it starts scarring the eyes. And you get vascular growth in there. And so [00:30:40] to be honest I always when it flared up before I had drops and it used to settle [00:30:45] down. But it was really bad at that point. And I thought I can’t do not do you know, I can’t do [00:30:50] dentistry without my eyes. I need to make a bit of a cooler and sat down with Serena and just said, look, [00:30:55] I don’t want a medical condition to to stop me. I want to make [00:31:00] the call on my own. Right. And so at that point, also, we were on this [00:31:05] entrepreneur program with NatWest and actually there was loads of different businesses. [00:31:10] Loved it, you know. So sometimes when we’re all just enclosed in dentistry, it’s a very same, [00:31:15] same world. These were loads of start up businesses and the energy was insane. And we [00:31:20] both realised that we both loved the business side of it, which is unusual. Sometimes you normally [00:31:25] have one person that likes the clinical. One person might like the business, but we both love the business side. So we had a chat [00:31:30] and we said, look, the only way we can probably make it work is by growing and having [00:31:35] more practices. And we also just sat down and figured out this is the first [00:31:40] time we figured out the numbers.

Kaival Patel: So, you know, up until then I was as most principal [00:31:45] owner principal, you do the work, you’re taking pittance out of the practice and [00:31:50] you’re the money that you generate is going into the practice, but you don’t know, you know. So [00:31:55] I was spending loads of marketing and loads on everything and just letting it go because you don’t have the time to just sit there [00:32:00] and, and that’s the only one benefit of Covid is you can sit down and we figured out, you know, [00:32:05] what our surgery costs were and what they’re, you know, running it. And there was a good webinar at [00:32:10] the time which sort of went through all of that stuff. And then we realised, well, actually, we we [00:32:15] need to grow things. We need to spend time on the business. Let’s give it a go. Worst case, exactly [00:32:20] what you said is we’ll go back into dentistry if it doesn’t quite work out. Um, so, [00:32:25] so yeah, that’s what forced me actually to stop. And it took a little while once we were back in after Covid [00:32:30] to finish my cases and yeah, these sort of things, um, Serena had stopped at that point [00:32:35] as well. And then. Yeah. And then we sort of went, went into just focusing [00:32:40] on the business side of it.

Payman Langroudi: And with the I mean, the growth is quite quick. You’re [00:32:45] Covid sorry you started 2015. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: So really slow at the start.

Payman Langroudi: We’re ten [00:32:50] years in. Yeah. And 30 chairs. Not a joke. It’s that’s not [00:32:55] a joke. That’s fast growth. That’s fast growth. With that speed of growth [00:33:00] you’re obviously having to throw every penny back into the business. Right. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: You do, [00:33:05] you do. Um, we do well out of it as well, to be honest. You know, [00:33:10] so I think we yeah, we it comes to funding, actually, a lot [00:33:15] of the time. So, so high street banks in general, you know, they want you to put ten, 20% down. [00:33:20] All the practice we buy are big practices, you know, a million, £2 million things. So 10 to 20% [00:33:25] is no joke. Yeah. But again, we made the call that, you know, we’re going to put this money back in. We’re going to put the money [00:33:30] in to develop the places. You know, we’re going to develop and upskill our clinicians. Um, [00:33:35] and we’ll keep a track of the numbers and we make sure that we’re on top of it. So the last [00:33:40] year or so, I think we’ve been really on top of it in terms of the numbers of things. And we’ll go through [00:33:45] and we’ll have KPI related meetings together. And I’ve got a business coach, and she [00:33:50] also doubles up as a marriage counsellor between me and Serena. So, yeah. Um, but, [00:33:55] you know, we focus on those aspects. And I think the cool thing about the size we are is that [00:34:00] we can try lots of things.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kaival Patel: You know, and we can try these things. [00:34:05] And sometimes they won’t work, sometimes they work and we sort of develop on it.

Payman Langroudi: So size is a funny thing, man, because [00:34:10] it depends what you’re chasing, doesn’t it? Like I used to I used to want to chase happiness. [00:34:15] Not happiness. Joy. Joy.

Kaival Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Pleasure. Yeah, yeah. And he had it all mixed up. I used to think [00:34:20] pleasure and joy and happiness were all one thing. Yeah. So I was chasing that [00:34:25] and that. It’s an unlimited sort of cost base to that, right? So [00:34:30] even more joy. Get even a bigger boat. Right? You know what I mean? It’s there’s no. So [00:34:35] now, though, I feel like I’m. I’m chasing peace.

Kaival Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And whatever.

Kaival Patel: It.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:34:40] whatever the thing is, whatever the thing is, it’s like hiring a new social [00:34:45] media manager. Yeah. And I’m thinking of of of what will it take for this to give [00:34:50] me more peace. Yeah. And often that is hiring the right one. All of those things. [00:34:55] Yeah. Hiring the right one, training them properly, inspiring them. All of that stuff will eventually get you [00:35:00] somewhere where you’ve got peace now, because someone’s doing well at that. So sometimes peace is hard work [00:35:05] itself. Is it nice.

Kaival Patel: Or is it productivity?

Payman Langroudi: Peace. Is it peace for me? Yeah. [00:35:10] Yeah, yeah. Some people. Some people you just met upstairs. He’s all about potential, [00:35:15] you know. Okay. And potential is a beautiful thing, too, you know? And he’s all about automation [00:35:20] and stuff, right? So there’s some things. Turn one person on more than the other. You know, it’s [00:35:25] an interesting question, but you know what you’re saying here about right where you are at [00:35:30] right now. And I’ve been involved in your business enough to know you’re in a happy place. Yeah. [00:35:35] Yeah. I think back sometimes to pre-COVID 2014. [00:35:40] Yeah. We were much smaller company, but we [00:35:45] were so happy. We were so happy. Nice. Yeah. Because the team at that point [00:35:50] was just perfect. It was easy enough to manage whatever it was. 12 people. Yeah. Yeah. And, [00:35:55] you know, we were in a happy place. So this question of where is it going and what is it? What drives you? Do you think [00:36:00] potential drives you.

Kaival Patel: You sort of say peace or say happiness. And I think that’s [00:36:05] probably a problem I do have. I’ve never really that happy, you know, with wherever we are, I’ve, [00:36:10] I’ve always got an itch.

[TRANSITION]: I want more.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, I’ll get the car, I’ll get the house and all these [00:36:15] things. It’s great for a week. And then I don’t feel that content [00:36:20] because.

Payman Langroudi: Things don’t bring contentment. That’s the problem. I never thought I would be this cat to talk, preach this message. [00:36:25] But things don’t. Things don’t. They don’t. I was chasing experiences, right. But [00:36:30] even experiences in the end. Right? It’s a funny thing. It’s a funny thing. But [00:36:35] knowing, knowing what it is for you is the important thing. Because it’s a bit of a [00:36:40] cliche, but the older I get, the more I realise all the cliches are real. Yes. Yeah. [00:36:45] That, you know, um, Stephen Covey used to say a thing about climbing up the [00:36:50] wrong ladder really quickly. Yeah. And knowing which [00:36:55] is the right ladder to climb up. Yeah, yeah. Because running, climbing up ladders quickly on their [00:37:00] own can lead you to wrong places, you know. Bad places.

Kaival Patel: And you don’t [00:37:05] know it until you’re there, right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I think, you know, [00:37:10] I’ve always got this itch. I always need to try different things. And I think.

Payman Langroudi: Were you always very ambitious?

Kaival Patel: Yeah, [00:37:15] probably. Probably so. I used to. First thing is at [00:37:20] school, I used to, um, you know, those DVDs, DVD burner? Yeah. I [00:37:25] managed to save up. I don’t even know. Probably asked Mum and Dad, um, for a little bit of funding [00:37:30] for a DVD burner. I used to copy these DVDs and sell them, you know, in school and bootleg. [00:37:35] Yeah. Yeah. Oh.

Payman Langroudi: Criminal mind as well.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, absolutely. Criminal mind.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Kaival Patel: This [00:37:40] is why the ankle tag only lets me go so far. Um. And then. [00:37:45] Yeah, I’ve always had something, you know, I, as an associate, I developed an [00:37:50] app called the Dental professor, which absolutely flunked. Um, absolutely flunk because I didn’t [00:37:55] really, you know, put enough time and effort into it, but it was it was almost like the, you know, dentinal tubules [00:38:00] before tubules were sort of there and taking videos from different, different [00:38:05] sources and have educational videos for, for, you know, I used to find, [00:38:10] I used to speak to people straight from at that point or PhD now and, you know, they hadn’t had that much [00:38:15] experience. So I thought, okay, let’s, let’s try and get them that experience and, and monetise it and have, you [00:38:20] know, this, this dental profession.

Payman Langroudi: Why dentistry? Did you, did you want to be this sort of IT guy or something before [00:38:25] your parents stepped in and made you become a dentist?

Kaival Patel: Parents never made me do anything. Yeah. They [00:38:30] didn’t. They wanted me to have a secure profession. You know, they were immigrants from Uganda, got kicked [00:38:35] out, um, from Uganda, and they focussed everything they had on just [00:38:40] educating, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Ugandan Asians, master race.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I told you this before, haven’t I?

Kaival Patel: They’re [00:38:45] amazing. They’re amazing. Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:38:50] they came over after Idi Amin.

Kaival Patel: Idi Amin, and, um, so my, [00:38:55] my dad’s dad passed away when he was really, really young. So he was he was my grandmother [00:39:00] and he was, you know, the linchpin of the family. And actually my my eldest uncle, [00:39:05] who pretty much resumed that, that father role for, for his he had eight dad [00:39:10] had seven other siblings. And my uncle just passed away recently. And it [00:39:15] was nice hearing the stories of of what they sacrificed and what they, you know, became and [00:39:20] and how hard they really worked. I don’t think sometimes I don’t really have that concept. I [00:39:25] can hear it, but I can’t truly understand, you know, Mom and dad had newsagent’s shops, [00:39:30] um, when I was a kid, and they worked every hour, you know, every hour. Sundays. He wasn’t having [00:39:35] a weekend off. He was, you know, Saturday, Sundays. Um, and all they did was to try [00:39:40] and get me and my sister educated.

Payman Langroudi: How many?

Kaival Patel: How many.

Payman Langroudi: Newsagents.

Kaival Patel: At [00:39:45] the most. They had two at one point, but most of the time they had one. And dad then had a dry [00:39:50] cleaners afterwards. Um, when they, when they sold the newsagents. But yeah. No he wasn’t he [00:39:55] wasn’t like a, you know, a big sort of entrepreneurial chain. He was just grafting, getting [00:40:00] enough. It really was. I genuinely say it to get me and my sister through. They really believed in private education, [00:40:05] went to private school. We had a really bad financial time. At one point I had to move away from [00:40:10] from private school, and my sister was sort of at GCSE [00:40:15] time at that point, so you could tell who the favourite was. Yeah, she, she stayed in school. Now she’ll, she’ll. [00:40:20]

Payman Langroudi: Just discussing this upstairs weren’t we. Like what would it take to make you go back to becoming a dentist. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. [00:40:25]

Payman Langroudi: And Sandra was saying even if you had to take his kids out of private school, he [00:40:30] still wouldn’t. Yeah, yeah. So go on. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: So, um. So. So. Yeah. [00:40:35] So I went to this school.

Payman Langroudi: Was it? Where did you grow up? Milton Keynes. Milton Keynes. So then [00:40:40] you went to university?

Kaival Patel: Yeah. In Manchester. Absolutely. Loved my time there. [00:40:45] Absolutely loved my time. It was. It was the best year. 2003 to [00:40:50] 2008.

Payman Langroudi: Around Kailash time. Do [00:40:55] you remember Kailash?

Kaival Patel: No, no I don’t. I met Kailash afterwards, but. But not. [00:41:00] Not at university.

Payman Langroudi: How did you enjoy Manchester? As in. Did you get there like big [00:41:05] city? I’m going to have fun. First time freedom.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, it was a. [00:41:10]

Payman Langroudi: Lot.

Kaival Patel: Of that, to be honest. Yeah, yeah, I used to. I enjoyed, you know, I had a really good group [00:41:15] of friends who I’m really, really close with now. Mixture of dentists and non dentists. And [00:41:20] we enjoyed the time there. You know quite, quite frankly. It was in my same year um, although [00:41:25] we didn’t get together until, you know, after university, but, um. Yeah, I mean, I [00:41:30] did enough to get through. I wasn’t an exceptional student. It’s quite funny. We have we [00:41:35] have some of the speakers that are on our course now who were probably my clinical tutors at that point. [00:41:40] Yeah. They won’t remember me at all.

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t.

Kaival Patel: Remember her? She was a great [00:41:45] student. Oh. Was she? But, you know, I was I wasn’t really, um. I did [00:41:50] enough to get through, except for my final year when I had this stark realisation that if I fail, all [00:41:55] my friends have gone and moved on and I’ll be. I’ll be left where I am and I studied then. [00:42:00] I did study then and I did quite well out of it. But yeah, it was um, [00:42:05] yeah, I enjoyed it. Lots of sports, lots of going out, lots of these. And I like Manchester because [00:42:10] it’s a big city. But everything, especially the Dental side of it, was really quite close together.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:42:15] not a big city at all, actually. The middle is quite small, isn’t it? Yeah, yeah, that’s the thing. Yeah. If [00:42:20] you there’s.

Kaival Patel: Lots of things to do.

Payman Langroudi: I went back to Cardiff. Yeah. Um, with a buddy and [00:42:25] we realised we walked around the area that we used to hang out and [00:42:30] we realised there was this tiny little area of the city. I mean, you know, we used to have cars and we used [00:42:35] to go and have a, I don’t know, meal somewhere outside of that little area. But I remember looking at the area [00:42:40] thinking, shit, man, it was that road, that road, that road, that road, that road. And they were in a little like [00:42:45] a octagon. Yes. Yeah. That was at the most two miles. It’s [00:42:50] really.

Kaival Patel: Not not.

Payman Langroudi: Not a big area. Yeah. Not a big area. And I think the central Manchester bit like that. [00:42:55]

Kaival Patel: It felt close. Yeah. And that’s why I wanted, you know, my choices I think were sort of Manchester, [00:43:00] Liverpool. It was all up north really. Um I think I found London too vast for me. [00:43:05] Um, so, so, yeah, I really enjoyed my time there. I really enjoyed my time.

Payman Langroudi: Did you even consider [00:43:10] staying or. No, not at all.

Kaival Patel: No. I always wanted to come back home. You know, I wanted to come back home. So. [00:43:15]

Payman Langroudi: First job.

Kaival Patel: First job in Northampton. So quite close to. To Milton Keynes. [00:43:20] Um, and then probably my, my biggest break was my associate position. [00:43:25] I had sort of one job interview with a chap called rescue who, [00:43:30] um, is, was in Wellingborough, and he’s absolutely [00:43:35] my mentor, you know, in that thing. And I was an associate there for a number of years. Uh, [00:43:40] I learned from him and from how he did things. The importance of having [00:43:45] people come in to to upskill your You dentists, you know, and just just the fun part [00:43:50] of learning. The side of dentistry, you’re not suddenly in a job. 9 to 5, you go home and whatever else it was. [00:43:55] The camaraderie part of it, the social part of it, and also the the learning part. [00:44:00]

Payman Langroudi: And so he’d organised education for all the associates.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, he did, he did [00:44:05] he there was a sort of, you know, a hotel near where he lived and [00:44:10] he’d just, you know, hire out the function room there. And he must have had ten, 12, 15, [00:44:15] maybe 20 associates. And, you know, whoever were into it, [00:44:20] they’d come there and, you know, they’ll they’ll lend their bits and sort.

Payman Langroudi: Of a social.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, yeah. Um, [00:44:25] not necessarily socially. It was they actually learning part of it. So he did the courses, socials and things were, [00:44:30] were Christmases and, you know, these sort of things. But the learning part he used to get these, these and, [00:44:35] you know, I used to speak to other, you know, my friends in, in their positions and so on [00:44:40] and any courses that they wanted to go and they would have to go and find it themselves going, yeah, yeah, go and do it. And [00:44:45] um, and there was nothing local, you know. Everything was London and Manchester and these sort of places. [00:44:50] So. So yeah, I really learnt a lot by me, by him.

Payman Langroudi: And he was a implantology [00:44:55] artist.

Kaival Patel: He do a lot of implants. Yeah, he used to, he used to do a lot of everything. Invisalign, [00:45:00] implants. Um, yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so did you [00:45:05] start learning implants quite quickly or.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, I did my MSC quite quickly. Um, [00:45:10] how long from it?

Payman Langroudi: Like, which year was it?

Kaival Patel: Um, so actually, I completed the MSC [00:45:15] the year I took over Oxford. Oxford House, my first practice. So I completed [00:45:20] 2015. So I must have started. Yeah. 2012, I guess, or 2011.

Payman Langroudi: And I’ve seen [00:45:25] implantology.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Distance.

Kaival Patel: What did you know full time? So [00:45:30] part of it was based in Harley Street, um, BPP [00:45:35] University.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, okay.

Kaival Patel: And then the last part of it, they sort of switched over and it was [00:45:40] University of Warwick, which was the academic year. Um, and at the same time did [00:45:45] her masters in Indo. So she was very Indo focussed and again she finished it [00:45:50] and we also had our first child in that same year as well. I remember having [00:45:55] the interview and Sarina was he was five days old in the interview prior [00:46:00] to taking over the practice, and he was very attached to her. And then she was [00:46:05] having this interview, you know, five days post, post birth. And I just said, look, [00:46:10] if they ask you a dodgy question, you know, just give him a bit of a nudge and get him to cry or something. So it will put [00:46:15] them off the scent. You know, the.

Payman Langroudi: Nature of those early days of business building and [00:46:20] life building that it’s part of the nature of it, that you end up in the same two [00:46:25] years buying a house, buying a business, getting married or having a kid. Like all those [00:46:30] things happen all at the same time. And even though those are the sort of [00:46:35] the, you know, foundations of the life that you’re building for yourself, I remember [00:46:40] being very overwhelmed by those years. I mean, I don’t know, the business for us was [00:46:45] this. And we were losing big amounts of money, huge amounts of money. And then, [00:46:50] you know, it’s a big change to becoming a husband, a father, if that’s where you went [00:46:55] in those years. You said you’re a father. Yeah. People don’t. [00:47:00] People don’t realise that that’s going to come. And then when you’re in it, [00:47:05] you don’t realise everyone’s going through it. You feel like it’s you. Yeah. Yeah. [00:47:10] So you get a little bit older and you see it. See the pattern happen again and again. Yes. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: You’re right, [00:47:15] you’re right. Yeah. But we always wanted we I don’t, you know, even now when we look back at things, [00:47:20] we think, well, actually nothing’s really as busy as whatever that year was, you know, around [00:47:25] it. Um, and so when we bought the first practice, we tried to buy a practice [00:47:30] a couple of years before, and that ended up going all the way to [00:47:35] sort of completion. We were due to complete two weeks later. We were due to get married, and [00:47:40] that ended up not going ahead because the person there was setting up another practice [00:47:45] nearby and telling his patients to to to move over. And so we ended up having [00:47:50] to, to to scrap that. But you know, like I think we were used to a long period of time where [00:47:55] there’s loads of things going. Even the second practice, we had our second child at the time and the joke was, are you just going [00:48:00] to keep having children with practices? And I nope. I moved out next door just to just to stop [00:48:05] anything from happening. Um, but but yeah, so we always had loads of things going on, [00:48:10] which is the interesting part even now with, with the three kids, you know, there’s lots of things going on, but, you [00:48:15] know, it’s not the same as what we had going on at that point, really.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:48:20] where is it going next, practice wise?

Kaival Patel: Uh, we keep growing, I [00:48:25] think. Um, I’ve never been you know, everybody asks this question of how many practices do [00:48:30] you want? I don’t have a number. You know, I don’t want to. I don’t have this ten or 15 or 20 or [00:48:35] whatever it is. I want to buy practices when we’re comfortable doing it and, you know, [00:48:40] finding the right places that suit the sort of portfolio that we have and things that [00:48:45] we feel we can, we can add to. So we’ve got hopefully another one coming through now, but it’s been [00:48:50] maybe a year or 18 months since we, we purchased the one prior to that. So [00:48:55] I think we’ll grow until.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the difference with your group compared to many of the others that for instance, [00:49:00] in Alicante I sat with many, many, many people who were mini corporates. Right. Um, [00:49:05] yours is private more than it is.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. 92% private. [00:49:10] Yeah. 8% NHS. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And it was funny because I noticed that pattern [00:49:15] of every almost everyone I was talking to was saying, well, we’re buying NHS practices based on the contract values [00:49:20] were, you know, remortgaging, basically buying more and more and more. Yeah. Did [00:49:25] you decide you’re going to go down the quality route right at the beginning and you’re going to stick to that, or are [00:49:30] you open to.

Kaival Patel: So we’ve had the opportunity to buy very NHS heavy [00:49:35] practices. And we’ve always felt it’s just not us. It’s not our vibe. You know, [00:49:40] I don’t mind having a small element of NHS and, um, and having that as historic value within [00:49:45] the practice, but actually we want we want that patient experience, you know, and [00:49:50] the way to deliver that is to do the dentistry that the dentists want to do in and [00:49:55] around there. That’s the dentistry side of it. And then the way you can have the team following that flow is, [00:50:00] is, is really, you know, having a nice building, having a nice presentation, having a nice flow [00:50:05] of things, having time, you know, which is the massive value aspect for any patient. [00:50:10] So um, so that’s what we focussed on. So, so yeah, when we look at practices now, [00:50:15] yeah, we don’t mind if there’s a small element, but it’s mainly private that we probably look to go to. [00:50:20]

Payman Langroudi: How do you feel about this? I was at PDSA at the weekend. Yeah. Yeah. And the question of [00:50:25] people going from feet to private. Mhm. How do you feel about that. Do [00:50:30] you when you’re hiring.

Kaival Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do you discard anyone who’s coming straight from PhD. [00:50:35]

Kaival Patel: It’s a really good question. I think Heart of [00:50:40] Hearts sometimes, you know, if if they’ve gone straight from that [00:50:45] and the, the CV has three lines saying done PhD and [00:50:50] looking for private position, then there’s no want in there. You know there’s [00:50:55] no I can’t see see that drive or if there’s not a cover letter sometimes you know, these sort of things.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s say [00:51:00] let’s say everything’s good on that end.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. And then when we speak to them, I feel like I can develop the, the [00:51:05] dentist. And actually it’s not so much me. It’s, it’s the team I have around [00:51:10] us. So, you know, it’s a very open door policy in all of the practices. We’ve [00:51:15] got a clinical lead dentist now because I didn’t feel like I’m, you know, being three years out of it, I’m not [00:51:20] the most appropriate person to to help train and teach. So we’ve got clinical lead dentists who, who [00:51:25] spends that time with it at.

Payman Langroudi: Each practice, or one.

Kaival Patel: Know, one practice at one practice.

Payman Langroudi: So there’s one clinical lead [00:51:30] for the whole group.

Kaival Patel: The group. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And and that’s what an associate are you paying him more for. For [00:51:35] that role.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, we give them a little bit more a month and.

Payman Langroudi: Less time with patients that he’s kind of more time.

Kaival Patel: He [00:51:40] works three days clinically. So he’s got, you know these these sort of two days [00:51:45] where he’ll and he you know he doesn’t necessarily take out a lot of his, his time [00:51:50] as such. But you know, like for example materials if we’re looking through a new, new set of materials, [00:51:55] he loves that side of it. You know, I always joke with him that when wherever we’re we’re out having a few drinks, he [00:52:00] turns into this Dental materials man, or we call him Rubber dam man because he just he loves [00:52:05] rubber dam and showing it and these sort of things. But you need that person. You need that person who loves that [00:52:10] side of dentistry. Um, he does things correctly. He does things in the right way. [00:52:15] Um, so, um, so, yeah. So he spends a little bit of his time doing it. Um, and when [00:52:20] we have a new dentist joined, they’re part of the induction part, but we have everything else around [00:52:25] for that dentist to, to sort of, you know, thrive in again, [00:52:30] quickly sort of know whether they’re not on board with it.

Payman Langroudi: So this question of, you know where [00:52:35] we’re at plus one. Yeah, yeah. There is they’ve got no experience, [00:52:40] but they’ve got no bad habits.

Kaival Patel: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t it. That’s the trade off.

Kaival Patel: That’s the trade.

Payman Langroudi: Off you’re [00:52:45] having to make. There.

Kaival Patel: But you just need to have that. You can take the horse to water but you can’t force them to drink. Yeah. So if we have [00:52:50] all that there and I say in all of my interviews is, you know, there’s loads of associate positions out there now, [00:52:55] what we want is somebody who’s wants to develop and is also going to have absolute [00:53:00] respect for everybody else in the team. So if you can do those two things absolutely fine to to [00:53:05] hire you and have you as part of our group, if you feel like you, that’s not you, then [00:53:10] this isn’t the right place for you. And and you know, when, when we go through all the things that we do, [00:53:15] they love it, you know, you see it instantly.

Payman Langroudi: In love, right?

Kaival Patel: Yeah. Yeah. What’s [00:53:20] not to love? And we’ve got the academy. We’ve got courses there all the time, you know. So again, [00:53:25] I don’t force any of my dentist to join the academy because it’s just a kind of health group, you know, side [00:53:30] of things. It’s they can join individual courses that they want to learn more in and these sort of things. [00:53:35] Um, but there’s that development side there. But again, you have to be willing [00:53:40] to turn up to the course and, and take part in it and speak to other clinicians. We [00:53:45] have a million WhatsApp groups, and one of them is just for clinicians. And my one rule in the WhatsApp group [00:53:50] is don’t be a dick. You know, there’s there’s lots of silly questions that you would have asked when you [00:53:55] were young and fresh into it. So, you know, allow these guys to ask questions, [00:54:00] put photographs in there, put X-rays in there and answer it, because we’ve got specialists [00:54:05] and all these wonderful clinicians within the team. And you know what? Everybody loves sharing. [00:54:10] I haven’t met a dentist who does well at their craft who doesn’t actually love sharing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah [00:54:15] that’s true. Because then she’s a bit like in a room, isn’t it? You want to you want to [00:54:20] talk about it a little bit when you, when you, when you’re with your peers. If you’re into it, if.

Kaival Patel: You’re into it. Yeah. [00:54:25]

Payman Langroudi: So do you think you’re good at telling who’s going to be a good dentist and who’s not?

Kaival Patel: No, [00:54:30] it’s the same.

Payman Langroudi: Same as a lottery, isn’t it? In the same way as you don’t know until you know.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. I [00:54:35] think we’ve hired people who haven’t been the right people after a short period of time and [00:54:40] would damage maybe our reputation and our quality of things. You know, a [00:54:45] bit to maybe money hungry, you know. Whereas I do feel that if you do [00:54:50] quality work and you spend time with the patient, the money will come. You know, everybody makes a good living, you know, when you’re doing [00:54:55] things the right way, if you’re a bit too overzealous with it or unethical, really, then that’s [00:55:00] my reputation. At the end of the day, you know. And so we’ve we’ve had to not [00:55:05] have people carry on with this as a result. Not many, not many.

Payman Langroudi: Positioning wise, you’re at the higher [00:55:10] end of the market, right.

Kaival Patel: In terms of.

Payman Langroudi: Positioning.

Kaival Patel: But you’re [00:55:15] the practices themselves or practices in the price wise.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Price.

Kaival Patel: And yeah I’d say [00:55:20] we’re we’re like a John Lewis. We’re not a Harrods and we’re not a, you know, [00:55:25] anything lesser in terms of a supermarket chain, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But so are [00:55:30] you saying there is a Harrods in Milton Keynes? That’s that’s the. You know, you can’t say we’re not a Harrods if there isn’t one. [00:55:35] Mhm.

Kaival Patel: I think there are practices that position themselves, you [00:55:40] know, more up-market than we are. Yeah. And we are family orientated. You know, the [00:55:45] crux of the business and the crux of the practices are family orientated care. Um, it’s not [00:55:50] just high end work all the time, but we’ve also got a referral centre where other practices refer [00:55:55] over to us. Um, and again, we have to maintain, you know, the levels, the quality. [00:56:00] Otherwise people aren’t going to refer. We’ve got 60, 70 practices referring to us now from starting from scratch from [00:56:05] when we took over. So yeah, that.

Payman Langroudi: Wasn’t a referral practice to start with.

Kaival Patel: No, not [00:56:10] at all.

Payman Langroudi: No. How many years did that take to.

Kaival Patel: So we took 2017. I had [00:56:15] the first specialist there, um, which was, uh, an endodontist [00:56:20] who’s, who’s been with us ever since. Amazing guy. And, um, and then now [00:56:25] we’ve got. Yeah. Oral surgeon. An orthodontist, a couple of periodontists, um, [00:56:30] a couple of, uh, people that do sedation implants. Um, [00:56:35] so everything barring a prosthodontist at this stage.

Payman Langroudi: Children’s.

Kaival Patel: And [00:56:40] paediatric, we don’t we don’t have somebody who does.

Payman Langroudi: I would, I would.

Kaival Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: We’ll talk about that in a minute. But [00:56:45] so impressive man. You make it sound so effortless. I’m sure it’s not [00:56:50] right. I’m sure there’s more effort than you’re. You’re letting on here. Yeah. But at the same time. [00:56:55] So impressive, man. Thank you. Not an easy thing to do. Not an easy. Along [00:57:00] with all the other things you’re doing to make that successful, you know. So what did you do about referrals? [00:57:05] Did you sort of study club it at the academy or.

Kaival Patel: No. What I did was [00:57:10] and I don’t know how right or wrong it is, we went to every single practice around the area [00:57:15] with a box of chocolates or a hamper, um, made a referral [00:57:20] pack and literally physically went to every single practice around the area saying, look, [00:57:25] we’re doing this. We’d love you to support us. The difficult part of that practice is, [00:57:30] is the general practice as well as a referral centre. So it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Seen as [00:57:35] competition.

Kaival Patel: Somehow.

Payman Langroudi: As.

Kaival Patel: Well. So, you know, I made it very clear, and we are crystal clear about it, that [00:57:40] we would never take anybody’s patient. You know, you refer it that patients come back to you, you know, whatever happens. [00:57:45] And so yeah, we went to all the practice. And now every year we do the same thing. We make it wackier [00:57:50] and wilder. Every year we’ve got these doughnuts. And you know, half the time we’re we’re regarded as these, [00:57:55] you know, the doughnut practice or, you know, these massive doughnuts that are all, like, really [00:58:00] nicely decorated. And we’ll go to the practices and we’ll, we’ll, you know, we’ll just give them.

Payman Langroudi: 60, 70 [00:58:05] of them.

Kaival Patel: No. So this will be maybe 150 to [00:58:10] 200 practices will go to. So we’ll go Milton Keynes.

Payman Langroudi: We’ll go wait a minute.

Kaival Patel: Watford. Northampton.

Payman Langroudi: Face [00:58:15] to face.

Kaival Patel: Face to face.

Payman Langroudi: That’s not you.

Kaival Patel: Not me. No.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s one person’s almost whole job, [00:58:20] right? Because that’s, you know.

Kaival Patel: It’s it’s it’s the it’s the most fun and it’s [00:58:25] the most stressful time that. So we have a referral centre coordinator, we have the practice manager there, we have treatment [00:58:30] coordinator and we have the marketing team. And and every year we say, look, let’s plan this a bit [00:58:35] earlier. Uh, we’ll make it a bit. So this year I want something interesting. This [00:58:40] is the bit that gets me kicking. Yeah. So this year we had Willy Wonka golden tickets, you know, um, for, [00:58:45] for them. And they’d have to do there and they’ll scratch something and, and get this golden ticket [00:58:50] and, and these sort of. I just want to make it interesting, make it fun around it. But there’s always this [00:58:55] massive push towards whenever we call it the, you know, the hamper drop days, um, [00:59:00] to, to get it there. But yeah, they’re out for two, two weeks. Um, [00:59:05] how many people. So we’ll have this year we had two cars. [00:59:10] So two in each, two in each. And so we’d go to the doughnut place because it’s all fresh doughnuts made [00:59:15] on that day. They go to the doughnut place, pick up the doughnuts for that day, and then then take it over to.

Payman Langroudi: Like [00:59:20] 7 or 8 times that day, whatever. More than that even. Yeah. How interesting.

Kaival Patel: And then [00:59:25] did.

Payman Langroudi: You come up with that yourself?

Kaival Patel: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It seems so obvious.

Kaival Patel: But I [00:59:30] mean, people don’t. People don’t realise. So the first year we did it, we got loads of these [00:59:35] Cadbury’s chocolates. Me and Serena spent evenings up until 3 a.m. making these boxes [00:59:40] up. And then we, we plonked them in our hallway and [00:59:45] we were like really excited, you know, massive, like layers of these chocolate boxes that were [00:59:50] due to go out and we plugged in the hallway, forgetting that we have underfloor heating. So [00:59:55] I’ve got a few messages from friends of mine that are other practices around the area [01:00:00] with this melted chocolate bars, like, okay, what are you trying to do here? You know, and [01:00:05] we were so excited. We’d put straw in these things and wrapped it beautifully. And yeah. So, [01:00:10] you know, you learn from these sort of things. But again, you look back at it and that’s the blood, sweat and tears that we [01:00:15] were putting into something slightly different. And obviously the clinical side of it [01:00:20] speaks for itself. You know, the specialists are amazing, and they’ll do webinars and they’ll get people together. [01:00:25] We had a our first ever referral centre event, which was like a Vegas [01:00:30] theme, um, event that people came to and, you know, and they could meet the specialists and [01:00:35] these sort of things.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s a massive achievement insomuch as you’re a dominant force [01:00:40] in the town already. So in a way, people think, well, am I feeding [01:00:45] my competitor outside of that practice, having a general practice side [01:00:50] to it? Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, if you’re a little bit competitive and you see this [01:00:55] dominant guy who’s got 30 chairs already in the town, now asking for referrals.

Kaival Patel: Might [01:01:00] piss people off. Yeah, it does actually. I’m sure it does.

Payman Langroudi: I’m sure it does. But but you know, the fact that you’ve [01:01:05] made it as successful as that as quickly as that is a testament to what a great guy you are, man. You’re you’re. [01:01:10]

Kaival Patel: Very kind.

Payman Langroudi: Man. You’re very kind. You’re okay.

Kaival Patel: I think, again, I [01:01:15] just have this itch and I need to do something, you know, we need to keep it going. And, and actually, I think when [01:01:20] you do become complacent is when things start dropping off. You know, and again, it’s not just me. You know, [01:01:25] I have a team around me that are doing all these things and reminding me, oh, we need to do this, that or the other, or [01:01:30] let’s try this, you know, and you’ve met some of them and they’re like, you know, on top of it, good [01:01:35] people. Good people. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Your Christmas party?

Kaival Patel: Yeah. [01:01:40]

Payman Langroudi: What is it, 150 people? No. Do you do the. Do you have five separate [01:01:45] ones?

Kaival Patel: No we don’t. No, no. So for the last two years, we’ve got everything. Everybody [01:01:50] together.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? That must be fun.

Kaival Patel: It was fun. It was fun. So we have. We call it. That’s [01:01:55] the kind of awards that we do. So it’s an awards night as well as the the Christmas party [01:02:00] and everything else. So I think we had about 100, 110 people. Um, [01:02:05] but it’s interesting, the first, first year we did it, last year we, we [01:02:10] had taken over a practice recently, not not too, too long before that. And we didn’t have too many [01:02:15] people from that practice turn up and these are my sort of benchmarks this [01:02:20] year. I really love it that practice. Virtually all of them came, you know, almost [01:02:25] 20 odd people. And they did a they did a Spice Girls dance, you know, like they got in there. I [01:02:30] always ask for the entertainment. We have our own entertainment. We’ll find somebody. Um, and I [01:02:35] ask if any of our team want to do something, you know? So we have last two years, we’ve had a singer, [01:02:40] you know, really talented singers that work with us. And, um, and then [01:02:45] they wanted to do the Spice Girls routine, which I love it. You know, like, they just got involved and got in there. Um, so [01:02:50] it’s it’s cool.

Payman Langroudi: It takes a lot of emotional intelligence to have these ideas and sell it to people. [01:02:55] Did you get this from the news agents? Did you work there ever?

Kaival Patel: I didn’t [01:03:00] work as much as my sister, just for the record, because she always tells me off. Yeah. Um, I used to play a lot of [01:03:05] cricket when I was younger, so cricket used to be Saturdays and Saturdays. I used to, you know, my [01:03:10] dad would would go and take me to to cricket and these people skills.

Payman Langroudi: Did you always have them? Were [01:03:15] you that kid who was always good with people? Did you get it from one of these activities? Captaining [01:03:20] the cricket team? I don’t know.

Kaival Patel: I don’t know. Yeah, maybe.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe. It comes very naturally to you.

Kaival Patel: Well, [01:03:25] I’d say I’m one of these guys that generally vibe off other people. Yeah. You know, so [01:03:30] I think I’m listening to a podcast and that introvert. Extrovert, you know, like, if I’m in a really [01:03:35] loud environment with loads of people, I’ll shrink up and go in the corner. Oh, really? Yeah. So I’m. But [01:03:40] if I’m in, you know, if I’m feeling the vibe and I’m normally smaller groups, then I’m [01:03:45] really, you know, I feel that energy and I vibe off of it. So I [01:03:50] think sometimes you have to force it when obviously you’re the owner of a business and you have to be there injecting [01:03:55] that energy. Um, what’s your.

Payman Langroudi: Attitude to risk?

Kaival Patel: Sorry. I’m risky. [01:04:00] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You like to take risks?

Kaival Patel: I like taking the risk. That’s where Serena’s in there. So she’s not. [01:04:05] She’s not fully opposite. Fully.

Payman Langroudi: You need a balance, right? You need a balance.

Kaival Patel: And she’s. She’s the accountant’s [01:04:10] daughter, you know. She’ll she’ll risk assess. Probably less so now. But [01:04:15] right at the start, you know, she would do the cash flows of the businesses and say, look, how are we going [01:04:20] to make this work? You know, because we looked at lots of practices before the first few. How are we going to [01:04:25] make it work? Is it going to work? What happens if it does? And what are we going to do, you know, these sort of things. And [01:04:30] now she tends to sort of let me fly with it to a certain extent. Um, [01:04:35] but yeah, she’s the one that really sends checks a lot of things, you know, and, you know, [01:04:40] we wouldn’t be anywhere, really, without Serena doing that part of it, honestly.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about [01:04:45] the Academy.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: When did you have the thought that you were going to be [01:04:50] like a teaching institution? This is a different thing to being a practice.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. [01:04:55] So I always liked that development side. Like I said, I used to get speakers in for our [01:05:00] own. So so even when we had a couple of practices and then it used to bug me, to be honest, [01:05:05] that everything’s in London or Manchester, even the courses I used to go to, you used to have to travel everywhere. [01:05:10] And I love the development side of it for for associates. I [01:05:15] literally love them, seeing them grow. You can see it in numbers. You can see it in confidence. You can [01:05:20] see it in just conversations that you end up having with them. And um, and I knew for, [01:05:25] you know, I knew I wanted to do something like that across the road from one of the practices, [01:05:30] the top floor of this room sort of came up.

Payman Langroudi: And I’ve been there. Right? You’ve been there? Yeah.

Kaival Patel: So it used to [01:05:35] be just the storage room. Um, you know, you had these salmon pink sofas and random [01:05:40] things in there, and I thought, actually, this this is perfect space to have [01:05:45] an area for us. And the practice we have across the road is sort of utilised every nook and cranny. So, you know, team [01:05:50] meetings and these sort of things, we used to not have space for it. So let me get that. You know, we, [01:05:55] we created a sort of almost like a boardroom. Um, you’re a U-shaped, [01:06:00] you know, section. And then I thought, well, actually, let me, let [01:06:05] me see whether we used to have, you know, courses generally and other dentists around the area used [01:06:10] to, you know, want to come on there and these sort of things. So I said, well, actually, what [01:06:15] if we just designed a program from scratch where, where people can come and join us? The USP [01:06:20] was it was in Milton Keynes and it got blown out of the water because we had people from Ireland and all over [01:06:25] the place coming to it because the speaking, you know, the speakers were so good. I didn’t quite I [01:06:30] underestimated how much work it was to become accredited to, to be [01:06:35] able to, to, to give out a diploma. Um, but once we got that, you know, I really [01:06:40] I loved it. Um, and I’m really thankful, actually, because a lot of the speakers wouldn’t [01:06:45] have heard of us. You know, we I had to reach out to I firstly, I asked other [01:06:50] dentists in that sort of target audience, you know, who are the people that you’re speaking to [01:06:55] and these sort of things. Some of them I hadn’t necessarily heard of so much at that point, reached out to them, [01:07:00] email or Facebook and these sort of things. And these guys took a punt with us. You know, they [01:07:05] were like, well, we haven’t heard of you, but you’re looking to do the right things. We’re happy to speak [01:07:10] on this, this course and stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Like who?

Kaival Patel: Nick Sethi, um, [01:07:15] even Milad.

Payman Langroudi: Um, singing dentist.

Kaival Patel: Singing dentist. Yeah. Um, she [01:07:20] has been on and jazz girl these are guys there. Um, Mitchell Patel and Jazz Gulati [01:07:25] and jazz. Yeah. And he was one of the actually the staunchest supporters at the start. He was so [01:07:30] positive. So, you know, he was just like, yeah, Kevin, just you could do it. Let me help you out. We’ll get people on. [01:07:35] He is.

Payman Langroudi: A great, great guy.

Kaival Patel: Man. Really great guy. And just his energy his infectious. Right. This is what [01:07:40] I mean. Like if I’m in a room with him, I’m suddenly bouncing around because I’m just vibing.

Payman Langroudi: With these, like, one day courses, one, [01:07:45] one event, one evening courses, or like, how did it start and how did it evolve? [01:07:50]

Kaival Patel: No. So so I always had the plan that it’s going to be a year long program. Yeah. Um, [01:07:55] but you can attend each individual course if you want. If you want to. Yeah. But if you want the diploma, [01:08:00] it’s a year long program.

Payman Langroudi: So eight.

Kaival Patel: So there’s 13 courses.

Payman Langroudi: 13 days in the [01:08:05] year.

Kaival Patel: 13 days in the year. Yeah. 14 days, 13 of course, is one of the courses is two days.

Payman Langroudi: And the [01:08:10] sort of the angle of the diploma is what? What is it? How do you what’s the kind of USP of that diploma over [01:08:15] a different.

[TRANSITION]: I mean it’s.

Kaival Patel: Similar to the other ones. The main essence is you’re [01:08:20] just getting good quality education in, in, in a bit of a smaller space. So [01:08:25] it’s quite one on one. The control you get that, that element of it, you feel part of it. I [01:08:30] wanted to create that little community from the delegates as well, where they can share cases and in a safe space [01:08:35] and, and these sort of things. And it’s just for me, it’s the best speakers or some of the best speakers in the [01:08:40] country, and they’re here and they’re in Milton Keynes, and they’re able to teach and train you. And we wanted [01:08:45] to tie it all up into a diploma. And you get something behind attending these [01:08:50] courses, and, you know, the letters after your name and these sort of things. There’s the kudos of it all. But [01:08:55] actually it’s just hands on, you know, like being able to utilise the skills that you learn on Monday [01:09:00] morning. You know, so many times I’ve been on courses, it’s been six months, I’ve not used anything. You know, [01:09:05] we really pushed them to utilise those skills to do it. And and again, [01:09:10] I’ve seen guys that most of the delegates now are probably not our own dentists. They’re [01:09:15] they’re others from all over the place. And, and I see their confidence develop, you know, as [01:09:20] they’re going on. Absolutely. Love it. You know and and when they’re leaving the course and they’re giving me a hug and saying, [01:09:25] thank you so much. You know, you’ve you’ve really improved my sort of, you know, my confidence. It’s not necessarily [01:09:30] that they won’t say clinical skills so much. It will be my confidence because that’s all related to to to learning. [01:09:35]

Payman Langroudi: You teach on it yourself.

Kaival Patel: No I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry.

Kaival Patel: No middlemen. No [01:09:40] no I don’t one I think I [01:09:45] think it’s a bit of imposter syndrome with a lot of the things. But the clinical side, I knew I wasn’t the best [01:09:50] dentist, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But surely there’s a non-clinical piece that you could have taught.

Kaival Patel: So [01:09:55] I’m going to develop that, um, which is a business and management course, um, which, [01:10:00] which will be happening later in the year.

Payman Langroudi: Even on even on Mini smile Makeover, we have a marketing lecture. [01:10:05] Yeah, yeah. I think it’s important. I think it’s important. Part of call it educate patient [01:10:10] education, whatever, whatever you want to call it. Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s important that the non-clinical side [01:10:15] of it is the bit we don’t get taught at all.

[TRANSITION]: We don’t get taught.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right. And you’re a master at it. [01:10:20]

Kaival Patel: I don’t think I am, but.

Payman Langroudi: It should have been. It should have been like 14 days or whatever, you know, 12.5 days, [01:10:25] but. But one of them or half a day, something talking about that side of it. Or you should definitely [01:10:30] do it now going forward.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. So I think we’re going to start this sort of business and management course towards [01:10:35] the end of the year. I need to I’ve got the the framework in my mind. [01:10:40] I just need to make sure that we’re, we’re, we’re going to market it in the right way and you know, and [01:10:45] actually have it beneficial for, for people, you know, whereas business owners or researchers want [01:10:50] to take the leap or people that are one one business and looking to scale up and, and these sort of things, [01:10:55] you know.

Payman Langroudi: Look, you know, I’m a massive fan of yours. Yeah. You know that. Yeah. Um.

Kaival Patel: What’s the. But [01:11:00] heck.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’m a massive fan of yours, man. And like I say, you [01:11:05] seem to carry things off very, like, flawlessly and sort [01:11:10] of effortlessly. And it’s just lovely to see a nice guy doing that. I love that. But [01:11:15] there is always in these stories, a darker side. [01:11:20]

Kaival Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind if I say darkest day in this journey?

Kaival Patel: Darkest [01:11:25] day?

Payman Langroudi: Well, some of them, you know.

Kaival Patel: I [01:11:30] think what I started off with in terms of, you know, easing [01:11:35] our way into practice ownership and, and the stresses that we had there. I’ve [01:11:40] had, um, I think we’ve had [01:11:45] associates or an associate who was the owner of a business or one of the practices [01:11:50] who left. And they were going through a divorce [01:11:55] at the time. And they said to me, look, I want to leave, but, [01:12:00] Um, I want to try and come back to the area before your [01:12:05] restrictions sort of time piece goes and, you know, they’ll be absolutely fine [01:12:10] with it. And, you know, they’ve supported the business all this time, and they sort of came back as soon as they came back, [01:12:15] there was mass marketing to go and grab their grab the patients back on a really [01:12:20] existing Dem plan list. And, and I felt like a complete wally because I just took it on good [01:12:25] faith. Right? Yeah. Yeah. That, um, that, you know, you’re going to do this, you’re [01:12:30] going to come back, you’ve got to rebuild your life because of everything you’re going through. Um, darkest day was Covid [01:12:35] the day.

Payman Langroudi: In private practice.

Kaival Patel: Right? Yeah. The day where I remember [01:12:40] we were in the waiting room of of Oxford House. And again, we had the only the two sides then [01:12:45] and um, and the announcement came on TV and I [01:12:50] had the team around me, and the announcement came on TV that everything needs to closed down. There was no discussion [01:12:55] of furlough and all these sort of things. And I just cried, you know, like I couldn’t [01:13:00] really, I needed to I should have just stayed bloody strong for the team and everything. But I had this realisation [01:13:05] that all of these guys lives and dependents are dependent on this business. How [01:13:10] are we going to help support them? Everything was going on at the same time and that was [01:13:15] a dark day. Um, and yeah, I think, I think that that [01:13:20] must be the. Yeah, that’s the bit where I feel the emotion now. You know.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:13:25] remember the team coming in. Yeah. Like our videographer guy, he came [01:13:30] in and he said, yeah, I lived with two other people. Both of them just lost their jobs, and they’re heading back [01:13:35] to Italy. Um, how’s my job? You know, like, he came in [01:13:40] like that. That was his opening statement. Yeah. On that day that we said we’re going to close everything [01:13:45] down. Welcome. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: See you.

Payman Langroudi: What about. We [01:13:50] like to talk about errors.

Kaival Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um. You know, because because because your [01:13:55] story is so beautiful and all that. I kind of want these this side to be equally painful. [01:14:00] Okay.

Kaival Patel: I’ll see what I can do.

Payman Langroudi: Clinical errors. Business errors.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. [01:14:05]

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind?

Kaival Patel: Business error. I think it was. Was that one that one, uh, clinical [01:14:10] error. It’s hard because I’m not that you know, obviously it’s been a while since I’ve done the clinical [01:14:15] side of it, but three years. Yeah, but the, the bit I, I [01:14:20] remember well, like it was yesterday was this, it was my first full [01:14:25] arch implant case.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. All on four type thing.

Kaival Patel: All on it was.

Payman Langroudi: 6 or [01:14:30] 6.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. Yeah. And, um, and I sort of was prepped and ready to, [01:14:35] to, to do it. And so I’ve done the surgical side of it and I was taking the, the [01:14:40] impression for, for probably the temporary work or it might have even been the final work. Um, [01:14:45] and it was a, you know, an open tray impression. So, so the, the [01:14:50] and now this is a patient that was Uber nervous. Obviously they [01:14:55] were, they used to we’d sedated her for the first part of it, just because she was so [01:15:00] nervous with generally everything, and she had a massive gag reflex. So I was always a bit, a little bit shaking it with [01:15:05] this impression. And it was pretty much right at that point. Did the party [01:15:10] and I forgot to, to, uh, to take out the, uh, the post. [01:15:15] Yeah, yeah. Around it. So in effect.

Payman Langroudi: It was all stuck.

Kaival Patel: It’s all stuck. She’s [01:15:20] she’s there. She can see that. I’m sort of sweating thinking I can’t access these posts. [01:15:25] So the only way I can get into it is to drill the, the putty.

Payman Langroudi: The [01:15:30] tray, the.

Kaival Patel: Putty. But she’s. Her biggest fear was the sound of the drill, you know, [01:15:35] that’s why she was.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, she was a nervous patient.

Kaival Patel: Nervous patient. Really nervous patient. So I’m there [01:15:40] trying to drill. Everything’s flying out everywhere. She. She kept getting up every two seconds because [01:15:45] she just couldn’t, you know, hack it. Um, and then I ended up [01:15:50] having to, like, section, basically this thing a complete moron, you know, completely.

Payman Langroudi: Imagine the mess [01:15:55] that was made, their.

Kaival Patel: Mess. And it was stress because she was. So when your patient [01:16:00] is anxious, you’re anxious, you know, a little bit inside yourself. There’s saliva everywhere. She was pretty [01:16:05] much vomiting. And yeah, it was it was horrendous. And then gradually ended [01:16:10] up. And also for this is the one patient you do everything happens right. I didn’t insert the [01:16:15] anything into the access holes as well for some reason I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: So they got clogged up.

Kaival Patel: They were clogged [01:16:20] up with this. There’s two millimetre holes that I’m trying to drill out. The, [01:16:25] you know, everything in there at the same time. And, um. Yeah. So that’s [01:16:30] the bit where I, you know, what happened?

Payman Langroudi: What happened? Was she cool in the end or.

Kaival Patel: She [01:16:35] she wasn’t. No. She was like completely freaked out afterwards. Took everything [01:16:40] out in the end. I said, look, do you want me? I’m obviously running now, you know, incredibly [01:16:45] late for everything else. And I said, look, I’m happy to try it again [01:16:50] now. Or should we just take a breather and come back in another day and I’ll do the rest for you. [01:16:55] And she wanted it another day. And actually the other day she was fine. She was cool. And [01:17:00] she she understood it. And, uh, I can’t say we laughed about it together [01:17:05] afterwards, but we were okay. We got it done and the end result was good.

Payman Langroudi: So did you take the blame? [01:17:10]

Kaival Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You said I have made an error here.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:17:15] she was.

Kaival Patel: Cool. There’s nobody else you can blame in that.

Payman Langroudi: But she was cool with that.

Kaival Patel: She, she got [01:17:20] it. You know, she, she, she understood it and she didn’t really care to be honest. Like [01:17:25] in terms of whether it’s my blame or anybody else’s blame or whatever else, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: A juicy one. It’s a juicy one. [01:17:30] I think I’m going to accept that. I think I’m going to accept that sometimes I don’t accept them when the [01:17:35] outcome is so happy.

Kaival Patel: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes it wasn’t that happy. Yeah, sometimes.

Kaival Patel: I get sued.

Payman Langroudi: So sometimes I [01:17:40] want an unhappy outcome. Like I’m not even talking about being sued. I’m talking about, you know, trust was lost. [01:17:45] Okay. You know, that kind of. But I’m good. I’m going to accept that.

Kaival Patel: Thanks. I appreciate it.

Payman Langroudi: Mainly [01:17:50] because we’ve come to the end of our time. Otherwise I would have sweated you a bit more. [01:17:55] No, I want to talk a little bit around your final questions. [01:18:00] Um. Fantasy dinner party. Three [01:18:05] guests, dead or alive. Who are you having?

Kaival Patel: It’s [01:18:10] a really hard one. I’m guessing that’s why you have it as the. The last one’s there to actually, like, [01:18:15] pick pick three. The first person would be my grandma [01:18:20] who’s who’s passed away. And, um, what.

Payman Langroudi: Was your relationship like with [01:18:25] her?

Kaival Patel: So, like I said, dad had seven other siblings.

Payman Langroudi: But the matriarch, the she was the [01:18:30] linchpin.

Kaival Patel: She was the linchpin.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, yeah. She was the linchpin and really strong lady. Really emotional, [01:18:35] but but strong lady. And she lived with us whilst I was young. So really fortunate [01:18:40] in the UK, lived with with my family specifically for a long period of time, but especially when [01:18:45] I was growing up. So she was the one that when I came home she’d have a cup of tea ready for me. She [01:18:50] understood very little English, but she knew everything that was going on with Home and Away and Neighbours. Somehow [01:18:55] when we used to get, she’d tell me exactly what’s happened when.

Payman Langroudi: Neighbours brought back memories. Yeah. [01:19:00]

Kaival Patel: So, um, and towards the latter part of her life, [01:19:05] she, um, she had dementia, you know, like quite, quite severe dementia. And [01:19:10] that was the part where everything started happening for us. So we, I got married, [01:19:15] had kids, had the practices. And, you know, I’d love her to be on that table to all [01:19:20] of that. Yeah. My, my Gujarati is terrible. So probably now it’s good. Actually, I’ve got Google Translate. [01:19:25] I can probably tell it properly, but when she lived with us, it was a lot better because that’s the only way we could [01:19:30] communicate. But I’d love her to be there and just for her to see the grandkids. And [01:19:35] and she always had this thing where she’d say, wherever your wishes [01:19:40] go and fulfil it. You know, in Gujarati, you know, my mum and dad might joke about [01:19:45] something and they’ll call me a dumbass or something like that. And she she would completely, you know, stop [01:19:50] them, you know, and just say, no, he’s not you know, he’s going to he’s going to do it. And [01:19:55] you know, I grew up with, with with her, you know, mom and dad are exceptional. But [01:20:00] she she literally was was that person so amazing. She’s person one. Person [01:20:05] two would be, um, I love cricket. [01:20:10] And I was thinking, you know, who could we have from from the sort of cricketing side [01:20:15] of things. And I love India. There’s Sachin Tendulkar, but the person that [01:20:20] I’d have there is a guy called Ms. Dhoni who was Indian captain for a while, [01:20:25] and I’d have him because he wasn’t necessarily the best player, [01:20:30] but he was a great leader, you know, and he managed to lead these these, you know, the [01:20:35] Indian team that won the World Cup and these sort of things. And I just love he had a lot of divas [01:20:40] and, you know big stars in the team. And he managed to gel these guys together and still come out [01:20:45] looking as cool as, as anything.

Payman Langroudi: Do you still play?

Kaival Patel: No, no, I don’t play anymore. [01:20:50] So both of my boys have have started playing now. And, you know, [01:20:55] my my dream will be to have at least one match where I played in the father son [01:21:00] match last year with, with one of them. And I was sore for about three weeks afterwards. It’s [01:21:05] just. But I want to become fit, actually. My big aim for this [01:21:10] year is actually to become fitter and be able to do just just 1 or 2 games with them, and [01:21:15] I loved it. Yeah, I used to love it. Um, so yeah, I’d have msdhoni. [01:21:20] And then the final person is a chap called Mo Gawdat, so. [01:21:25]

Payman Langroudi: I know Mo.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. And he was, he was sort of a chief business officer [01:21:30] with Google X. He’s done some out there things more recently. But [01:21:35] one, one of his, you know, earlier books was was the equation of happiness. [01:21:40] We talked about it earlier.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kaival Patel: And he lost his son Ali. Um, [01:21:45] you know, when when his son was young and, you know, one of the things you shouldn’t ever have to bury [01:21:50] your your children. Yeah, but he he pivoted at that point, and [01:21:55] he sort of tried to work out the equation on happiness, you know, um, and [01:22:00] super smart.

Payman Langroudi: But you’re right that normally those super smart guys aren’t spiritual in [01:22:05] the way that he is. But I’m a massive fan of the podcast Slow Mo. [01:22:10] Yeah, but I kind of go into these phases of I listen to like nine of them in a row, and then [01:22:15] I come out of it and then like when I go back to that podcast quite a lot, you know, like it’s on a [01:22:20] plane or something. Yeah. It’s weird. I don’t have it. Like during my day to day.

Kaival Patel: It really hit me, [01:22:25] you know, like and.

Payman Langroudi: He’s brilliant.

Kaival Patel: He’s brilliant. The way he speaks is brilliant. And I [01:22:30] think just. It was the first time really, I got into thinking about that happiness side of things. [01:22:35] You know, everything was just all the go all the time and and actually what [01:22:40] is everything for, you know, what is everything for, you know. So I think [01:22:45] that was a you know, I’d love to have him there and just pick his brains on the happiness side of [01:22:50] things. I think I’m constantly striving to to feel that contentment and, and, [01:22:55] you know, hopefully having him on the dinner table, I can bust his brains and, and [01:23:00] figure out, you know, some of some tips and tricks to, to get there.

Payman Langroudi: You know, in the same way as people have [01:23:05] personal trainers in the, in the gym, you know, there is there is space, there is it’s [01:23:10] important here to look at like therapy in a way that is like that, [01:23:15] like an optimisation. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: So so we had somebody recently I got from my [01:23:20] group. Oh really? Her name is Maya Raichura and she works on mental fitness and [01:23:25] it was much nicer.

Payman Langroudi: Way of looking at it, isn’t it? Mental fitness.

Kaival Patel: Visualisation and mental fitness [01:23:30] and actually getting her in and just having that, that session on it, you know, um, [01:23:35] it’s really important and it’s really valuable tools just to visualise that, you know, again, it’s one [01:23:40] of these things where some people think it’s a bit fluffy and whatever.

Payman Langroudi: No, listen. There is. There is a deficit. [01:23:45] Yeah, there is a deficit. I try and fill that deficit with food. Yeah, all the [01:23:50] time. Yeah, I try and fill that deficit with fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With ambition. [01:23:55] With all. But there is a deficit. Yeah, yeah. And if we if you can get back [01:24:00] to that deficit and say, hey. Okay. That’s all right. Whatever that is, that is [01:24:05] it. You thought you would never amount to something, or we had a revolution and ran away [01:24:10] or whatever it was. Yeah, yeah. I haven’t done the work myself to know. Right. But there’s definitely a deficit. Yeah [01:24:15] yeah yeah yeah yeah. But everyone has it. Everyone has [01:24:20] it. Yeah. Like, you know, there’s hardly anyone who’s so perfect. And so, you know, we [01:24:25] could. It’s just like. It’s like a personal trainer in the gym. Yeah. Even the guy who goes to the gym every day sometimes [01:24:30] uses a personal trainer. Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting you got that for your team? Yeah. Do they appreciate it?

Kaival Patel: Yeah, [01:24:35] I think they did. I think they did. Again, it’s different. It’s a bit different. But I wanted to focus [01:24:40] on like January for me is this hangover month? Generally in business, you know you have [01:24:45] Christmas. It’s always really busy and I wanted January to be ignition time for the team, right? So if [01:24:50] not everybody, there was only maybe 20 of our team there. And the morning was, um, [01:24:55] some clinical stuff. And then the afternoon was this. And the people that [01:25:00] really took it on board, you could see that, you know, when they when they left the room, their shoulders were, [01:25:05] were their, you know, their head was up high and they felt that. And some people didn’t quite get it in that [01:25:10] in that period of time. But then you can’t train that in a half a day.

Payman Langroudi: It is about you that makes [01:25:15] you like that, that turns you on so much.

Kaival Patel: I don’t know. [01:25:20] I don’t know. I enjoy that. You know, maybe it’s like a pleaser part of it, you know, like, [01:25:25] it could be that side of it.

Payman Langroudi: What about the being different piece? Why that? Have [01:25:30] you always been that?

Kaival Patel: Yeah. I don’t see it as being different. You know, you [01:25:35] like me.

Payman Langroudi: No. You do. You said. You said that. You know, we got the referral centre. We want to do something different, [01:25:40] you know, like.

Kaival Patel: For getting people out there.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kaival Patel: It’s fun to me. It’s fun to [01:25:45] me, you know, just something, something adventure. Something out there. That’s [01:25:50] the bit that does.

Payman Langroudi: Are you.

Kaival Patel: Easily.

Payman Langroudi: Bored?

Kaival Patel: Like like.

Payman Langroudi: I am. I’m easily bored. Not necessarily by [01:25:55] like actually I am by projects as well. But I just basically go everywhere, wherever I go. I feel like this [01:26:00] could have been so much better than, like a bad judge of places.

Kaival Patel: You’re [01:26:05] that guy, Payman. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, and so if that’s the case, then [01:26:10] it’s exciting to make the thing better, right? Than.

Kaival Patel: Well, I’ll go to places and I’ll [01:26:15] see. Could that thing fit into what we do, you know, like. Yeah. Is that a bit, you [01:26:20] know, that’s that’s something cool or that’s a nice social media trend or whatever else. Can we do something similar [01:26:25] to it?

Payman Langroudi: We were talking about Ken, you know, uh, Ken Finlayson. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: Fmc yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I [01:26:30] talked to him quite a lot. And you know, he’s much of what he did was bringing stuff from other industries [01:26:35] into dentistry, you know. Awards the top 50 that were directly out of the [01:26:40] The Times Top 50 list. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: It’s clever though, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: I mean, his [01:26:45] execution is amazing. Don’t get me wrong. Yeah. But but his his sort of genius [01:26:50] often was bringing stuff from other industries in. And you’re right, it’s one of the best [01:26:55] things you can do.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. But dentistry is so isolated. So actually, like I said, when we were [01:27:00] on that programme, there’s lots of different businesses. Actually businesses, all business is all very similar, [01:27:05] you know. So actually you can pull in different things.

Payman Langroudi: And what the bank said to [01:27:10] you, do you want to join the programme. Is that how did you get onto that programme?

Kaival Patel: It was on a whim and it changed [01:27:15] our life quite considerably. But Trina literally said, there’s this programme. It’s for, you know, entrepreneurs, [01:27:20] um, like.

Payman Langroudi: An accelerator thing.

Kaival Patel: Accelerator. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And she goes, I’m going to apply. [01:27:25] I said, okay, fine, apply. And then she applied and we had an interview to, to sort of get into it. We [01:27:30] went into it and I loved it. You know, I absolutely loved it.

Payman Langroudi: You know, when people say to me, [01:27:35] hey, I want to do some toothpaste, or hey, I want to do that. I normally now just off outsource to [01:27:40] just go join an accelerator, okay. Yeah. Because, because because you know, it’s you’ll be you’ll [01:27:45] figure it out whether you want to do that or not once you’re in this accelerator. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: And it was different. We [01:27:50] were we were already a little bit established, whereas a lot of these guys were Start-Ups. But it was the energy. [01:27:55] It was the energy that I loved. I loved the Start-Up energy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, whereas for us. And that [01:28:00] just just got us going, you know, a little bit more and and again, if when you’re just in Dental world, [01:28:05] you only think in Dental ways. So I actually want to go on something which [01:28:10] is completely external now and just again, just pick on really smart people in their minds [01:28:15] and different, different businesses to see what Drew’s.

Payman Langroudi: Going to a conference in September [01:28:20] in in Norway somewhere. Okay. It’s like a growth summit. [01:28:25] Business growth summit or something. Yeah. And it looked I figured, you know, he’s probably done his [01:28:30] research.

Kaival Patel: He’d know. He’d know. It’s good. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kaival Patel: And in his he’s mine. He’s ours. And [01:28:35] he’s he’s like, you know, 20, 20 times more. Just going to he’ll message me sometimes [01:28:40] and he’s got so many different things going on. But yeah, I think I think those things are invaluable really. [01:28:45] And it’s worth a go. What are you going to lose? Yeah. Of course.

Payman Langroudi: No, it’ll be fun.

Kaival Patel: It’ll be fun. Yeah. [01:28:50]

Payman Langroudi: Final question. Yeah. It’s deathbed.

Kaival Patel: Deathbed.

Payman Langroudi: Surrounded [01:28:55] by your loved ones many years from now. What are three pieces of advice [01:29:00] you’d leave them in the world?

Kaival Patel: Advice [01:29:05] for my children. For [01:29:10] people. It’s [01:29:15] a hard one, really. Honestly, when I. When I think of my children and think of me on the deathbed, [01:29:20] I want them to be happy. Everybody does right? I want them to be financially secure [01:29:25] the way my parents used to for us. And, you know, maybe we [01:29:30] didn’t discuss it so much earlier, but when we first got the practice, we were living paycheque to paycheque, you know, and [01:29:35] that was really scary times. And sometimes you need to go through [01:29:40] it to appreciate other stuff. But I want them to value money, [01:29:45] value their life, you know, go and try things. Hopefully [01:29:50] the position that I’m really hoping that we put them in is a little bit of a platform where they [01:29:55] can try things and not be worried about failing.

Payman Langroudi: How old are.

Kaival Patel: They? Nine. Seven [01:30:00] and two. Nine, seven and two.

Payman Langroudi: Would you want them to be dentists?

Kaival Patel: Not [01:30:05] bothered. I’m not bothered. You know, the two boys, the nine year old and seven year [01:30:10] old. They want to open an ice cream shop together. That’s. That’s their.

Payman Langroudi: Thing.

Kaival Patel: So, um, there’s [01:30:15] a there’s a chap in Milton Keynes who owns a sort of ice cream making factory, [01:30:20] and I think Serena was talking to somebody about it, and it happened to be him, and [01:30:25] he invited them over. So they created their own ice cream and all. This is so nice. But They [01:30:30] want to work together at this point, so we’ll see whether that works out.

Payman Langroudi: But how cool is that?

Kaival Patel: But you know and [01:30:35] that’s of their own. They’ve probably seen us do whatever we do. And whereas in when [01:30:40] I was growing up it was doctor dentist, you know, do something like that. So I think [01:30:45] if you’re going to do whatever you’re going to do, love it. You know. So my sister, she did pharmacy [01:30:50] and she ended up turning to interior designing because she just didn’t like pharmacy. [01:30:55] And she’s an amazing interior designer. And that was her talent, you know. So I don’t want to force them to do anything, [01:31:00] but I also don’t want them to waste any opportunity that that they get. So just and [01:31:05] just work hard, you know, work hard. I think a lot of people see practice ownership and [01:31:10] suddenly, you know, it’s that old cliche. It took 20 years to be an overnight success, you know, but [01:31:15] they don’t realise the hours that you need to do to, to get maybe the lifestyle that you get or that flexibility. [01:31:20] You’ve got to work bloody hard, you know, and work every hour that God gives you in that time, you know. Yes. [01:31:25] It might not help with burnout and these sort of things, but you got to work hard. So I think [01:31:30] work hard. You know, take the opportunities that you’re given. And, [01:31:35] um. And I just want them to be, you know, secure, really, and happy. Just [01:31:40] be happy.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. But let’s introduce another one. Yeah. Go on. What’s one thing that you would tell them to do that you didn’t do? Like [01:31:45] something you regret you didn’t do in your life?

Kaival Patel: Something [01:31:50] I regret that I didn’t do.

Payman Langroudi: You know, that question can be really taken in two ways. Yeah, [01:31:55] it’s I did this. It worked for me. I was kind to be kind, you know.

Kaival Patel: Mhm. [01:32:00]

Payman Langroudi: Or it can go another way. You could say I didn’t enlightened for instance. [01:32:05] Yeah. I didn’t take on finance. Outside finance. Right. And if my [01:32:10] son did a business I’d say take outside finance. Yeah. Life wise what would you [01:32:15] say. What’s what’s the thing that you you wish you’d done or you wished you will do in the future? I think go to the gym. [01:32:20] Right?

Kaival Patel: Yeah. Yeah. So I think health is important, right? Health is important. I’ve hit 40. [01:32:25] And, you know, there’s a lot of things now which I wish I had done health wise, that that [01:32:30] would improve my life going forward. You know, we hopefully have a, you know, more comfortable life. And, [01:32:35] you know, the aim is whenever we retire and doing all those things. But actually, if I don’t have [01:32:40] my health, all the things that we’ve sort of gone into, I’m not going to enjoy that time with, with people. [01:32:45] So yeah, you’re absolutely right. Health. Health. And also again, it’s it’s make [01:32:50] mistakes quickly.

Payman Langroudi: And they’d be worried about.

Kaival Patel: Don’t be worried about it. You know make it quickly. You know [01:32:55] I think people are going to do it. You’re going to learn lots of things and don’t regret any [01:33:00] mistakes that you make. You know, people have this, especially if you’re a bit negative mindset. You [01:33:05] just dwell on the mistake that you made for ten years and you’ve suddenly stopped you going forward. So yeah, you’ve [01:33:10] made it. So what?

Payman Langroudi: You’re going forward but facing backwards, right? So you end up hitting your head on the lamppost. [01:33:15] Yeah. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: I like that. I might have to steal that one though.

Kaival Patel: But [01:33:20] but it’s absolutely that. So yeah. Look forward be positive and [01:33:25] um, and make mistakes quickly if you’re going to make them.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive pleasure. I’ve [01:33:30] always loved spending time with you. You can always, always learn with you, but particularly in [01:33:35] this context. So thanks. Thanks so much for coming on.

Kaival Patel: I really appreciate you having me on. Thanks, man. [01:33:40]

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [01:33:45] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:33:50] Your hosts Payman Langroudi [01:33:55] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this [01:34:00] far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for [01:34:05] actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m [01:34:10] assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [01:34:15] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it [01:34:20] too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Comments have been closed.
Website by The Fresh UK | © Dental Leader Podcast 2019