Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] Enlightened Online Training.com to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time whitening Underwhelms try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you [00:00:30] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:00:40] Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome a power couple from [00:00:45] dentistry, one of the first power couples we’ve ever had, I think. I think we had Kunal and Lucy [00:00:50] as well, but actually Martin and Vinny Adriani, who I knew separately [00:00:55] before they got together. And then one day they said, oh, we’re together and then got married [00:01:00] and all of that. I think I’ve known both of you for at least a decade. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, [00:01:05] it must be. I mean, yeah, Covid was only five years. Yeah. More, more more than that.

Martin Attariani: Started [00:01:10] being enlightened in 2011.

Payman Langroudi: Was it? Do you remember.

Martin Attariani: That? Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How do you remember that?

Martin Attariani: I [00:01:15] mean, it’s just an amazing brand. How can I forget? You [00:01:20] don’t remember when you first meet a great thing, right? When did you meet me, by the way?

Payman Langroudi: I probably met both [00:01:25] of you before you met each other. But let’s let’s go into. How did you meet each other? Let’s start with [00:01:30] that. How did you meet?

Vinne Attariani: How did we meet? Yeah. Okay. [00:01:35] Um. So me and Martin used to. Well, we first met when we used to work [00:01:40] at a NHS practice in Coventry. So I was an associate [00:01:45] there already. And then you came to work in 2006? [00:01:50] 2006.

Martin Attariani: So I just kicked in.

Vinne Attariani: And [00:01:55] funnily enough. Right, we used to work next door to each other, so his surgery used to be next to my [00:02:00] surgery, and I think it was about 18 months before I even said hello [00:02:05] to him. I didn’t even say hello.

Payman Langroudi: Dental practices are like that.

Martin Attariani: Well, it was a big, large 12 surgery [00:02:10] practice as well. Oh yeah. Yeah. Huge one. Yeah. Oh was it. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It was [00:02:15] it in Coventry. Yeah I’ve been.

Martin Attariani: There.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s probably 24 surgeries now. [00:02:20]

Martin Attariani: It probably is now. Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Vinne Attariani: And it wasn’t for the fact of being rude. You were [00:02:25] literally so busy.

Martin Attariani: Yeah.

Vinne Attariani: You were just fly in, fly out, and you wouldn’t even leave the room. [00:02:30] We had. I had two nurses. You had two nurses. It was.

Payman Langroudi: It’s still like that. When I went last time I went, [00:02:35] it felt more like a dental hospital than a dental practice. I mean, it was a gigantic. It was huge. 60 [00:02:40] people waiting.

Martin Attariani: To be seen. Yeah.

Vinne Attariani: Very busy. And, um.

Payman Langroudi: So. Okay, so you knew you [00:02:45] you knew each other. Existed at that point.

Vinne Attariani: Knew each other existed. Busy with our own lives. You [00:02:50] left and bought your own practice in 2008. 2008. [00:02:55]

Martin Attariani: Eight and.

Vinne Attariani: And then I carried on. Carried on there. Eventually I moved [00:03:00] out and got my own practice. Um, and then we just basically [00:03:05] saw each other at Dental courses. Right. Conferences. Courses.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But both.

Vinne Attariani: Of you.

Payman Langroudi: Are permanent [00:03:10] permanent fixtures on the Dental.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, we were then. So, you know, I.

Payman Langroudi: Was going.

Vinne Attariani: To every showcase, [00:03:15] every event. And you know, we used to sort of really enjoy that. And that’s where we used to bump into [00:03:20] each other. Then just you know on socially and I. [00:03:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What line did he use.

Vinne Attariani: Well.

Martin Attariani: It [00:03:30] was my magic trick was a.

Vinne Attariani: Magician, right. So I.

Martin Attariani: Think.

Vinne Attariani: He cast like some kind of spell on me [00:03:35] there, but.

Martin Attariani: Um, no.

Vinne Attariani: We just got on really well, and we just became friends then, right? Um, [00:03:40] I’m trying to actually think back to you, then started [00:03:45] going through your life story of your kind of divorce and everything. I [00:03:50] my story with my divorce, obviously. And then after that, [00:03:55] we just started becoming friends, didn’t we? We kind of, sort of probably met up on the scenes with like, Dental course, [00:04:00] and things more often. I think we were going through probably similar type of things [00:04:05] with our backgrounds. Well, after probably today you’ll hear more about our background. They are quite similar. [00:04:10] I think that kind of made us click more. Um, yeah. Yeah. Then eventually, [00:04:15] obviously, you know, a couple more magic tricks and spells and resist.

Payman Langroudi: And when did [00:04:20] you actually get married?

Vinne Attariani: We got on, darling.

Martin Attariani: Oh, do you remember?

Vinne Attariani: You remember? [00:04:25] Enlighten.

Martin Attariani: So we got married, uh, on the 15th [00:04:30] August 2019. Was our first marriage just [00:04:35] pre-COVID? Yeah.

Vinne Attariani: Pre-covid.

Martin Attariani: Pre-covid. Day after we got married [00:04:40] again in the morning. And then the afternoon of that day, we got married again. [00:04:45] So we got married three times.

Vinne Attariani: Three times in two days.

Martin Attariani: Yeah. Why? She wanted to make sure [00:04:50] that. Yeah.

Vinne Attariani: You know, when you find a good one, you don’t want to let it go, right?

Martin Attariani: So an Indian wedding [00:04:55] on the Thursday.

Vinne Attariani: Wedding. Wedding. Thursday.

Martin Attariani: On the Friday morning, we had a Persian [00:05:00] wedding. And then in the afternoon, we had a white wedding in the chapel. Oh. So we got three [00:05:05] documents.

Payman Langroudi: Nice.

Martin Attariani: Nice. Why would you say. Obviously [00:05:10] satisfied. All our families and the different cultures and everything. [00:05:15] But. Yeah. In August 2019, just six, six months before Covid. [00:05:20] Yeah, just before we were lucky.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, we were very lucky. It was.

Martin Attariani: Last minute.

Vinne Attariani: As well, wasn’t it? We [00:05:25] planned everything really last minute.

Martin Attariani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And you’ve both got a sort of interesting backstory as to how [00:05:30] you ended up in the UK. Mhm. Um, should we start with you, Martin? [00:05:35]

Martin Attariani: Yeah. Where do you want to start?

Payman Langroudi: Just Iran. Right. [00:05:40]

Martin Attariani: Iran. Right. So yeah, I was born in Iran, uh, in [00:05:45] 1972. And, um, um. Um, at [00:05:50] the time, my dad was, uh, [00:05:55] in the Air Force, in King’s army, back in the day when Shah was in Iran, [00:06:00] obviously. And, um, dad used to, um, uh, [00:06:05] get a lot of, uh, positions and educations in the United [00:06:10] States. So a few times he ended up going there, uh, [00:06:15] for educations. This is when I was very little. And then probably [00:06:20] 1977, 78, we were living there as a family. Yeah. Two brothers. [00:06:25] And my youngest brother, Charlie, was actually born in in Texas.

Payman Langroudi: Another [00:06:30] dentist. Who? Another dentist?

Martin Attariani: Yeah. And, uh, what happened [00:06:35] then is that, um, we were living in Texas, and, uh, [00:06:40] family got a bit homesick, so we decided to move back [00:06:45] to Iran, not knowing what the future holds in 78. This [00:06:50] is 78.

Payman Langroudi: So just at the time of the troubles in [00:06:55] Iran, the revolution and all that.

Martin Attariani: We basically when we got back two months later, [00:07:00] the revolution started and all the airports [00:07:05] got shut down. And you know, the story, everything just erupted.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Um, [00:07:10] massively. And then we were stuck. Then a year later, was [00:07:15] it a year later or something? The war started between Iran and Iraq, Iraq. And [00:07:20] obviously it was grim times in Iran. And I mean, [00:07:25] I remember.

Payman Langroudi: So you were 6 or 7 years old.

Martin Attariani: I was, uh, no, I did at that [00:07:30] time. So I was probably seven. Yeah, I was 7 or [00:07:35] 8 at the time of the revolution. I, you know, I’ve got very [00:07:40] vivid memories of the bombings and the air raids [00:07:45] over Tehran and how we used to as soon as we heard the sirens, you [00:07:50] know, we were getting together in this small hallway in the middle of the building [00:07:55] and everything. We had to turn all the lights off and, [00:08:00] you know, just stay indoors for days or what have you.

Payman Langroudi: You get some sort of PTSD [00:08:05] when you see.

Martin Attariani: I don’t like the very gory movies. Yeah. And [00:08:10] and I used to explain to Vinnie that, you know, I’ve seen horror.

Payman Langroudi: Horrible [00:08:15] things.

Martin Attariani: Horror scenes in real life. So for me, watching [00:08:20] gory movies just reminds me of those scenes I used. [00:08:25] I remember of of people having, you know, their legs [00:08:30] and arms cut off and, you know, it’s just it’s stuff that stays with you [00:08:35] for life. I had two cousins or. Yeah, two cousins who went [00:08:40] to to to the front line and never came back. One of them was only 16. [00:08:45] Wow. So, you know, these are things that stays with you for life. [00:08:50] You can never shake. Shake it off. Um, that was [00:08:55] what we were going through at the time. And I think, um, uh, [00:09:00] especially constantly. You heard about people you knew, [00:09:05] friends, relatives going to the war and not come back. That [00:09:10] started to prompt my dad that it’s probably time to leave [00:09:15] the country again. But obviously you couldn’t because, you [00:09:20] know, the country was in shutdown. You couldn’t just take a [00:09:25] flight and leave the country. So he started to explore the different ways of getting out of the country. [00:09:30] And this is back in the time where, you know, you didn’t have Google, [00:09:35] uh, you you couldn’t get any information. So just getting information [00:09:40] was impossible. In a country [00:09:45] with obviously a lot of oppression at the time, you wouldn’t even discuss [00:09:50] with your next door neighbour or even your with your brother or anybody [00:09:55] that I want to leave the country.

Martin Attariani: You know, you just couldn’t. So just getting information [00:10:00] was difficult. And I know at one point he was looking at boarding schools for [00:10:05] us with three sons at that time. Then, as [00:10:10] I say, he was planning and doing research about that. And then it was one [00:10:15] particular incident that happened. At one point we used to have a villa by [00:10:20] the Caspian Sea summer villa. And at one point when we were there, the [00:10:25] moral police, as you know, they are, they look after how people are, [00:10:30] how they dress up and how they behave and everything. They took my brother with his friends, [00:10:35] my older brother. He was probably 18 at that time. They took him to [00:10:40] custody because he had long hair, because he had short sleeve t shirts [00:10:45] with foreign language writing on his t shirt. So that [00:10:50] obviously had to go and get him out. And, um, it was [00:10:55] from that incident that he started to talk about immigration [00:11:00] with a next door neighbour, and this lady was working [00:11:05] at Iran Air, the official airline in Iran, and [00:11:10] she said, maybe I can do something for you guys. And then through her, we found out [00:11:15] that there is a lot of Iranians moving to Germany at the time.

Martin Attariani: Before [00:11:20] I know it, I was in a language school to learn German. [00:11:25] And why me? My [00:11:30] older brother was 18. He was due for national services. He had to [00:11:35] join the army or be ready to join. My younger brother Charlie was [00:11:40] probably 6 or 7 at that time, too young. I was 13 [00:11:45] and had I filled 14 fully, [00:11:50] uh, I would not be able to leave the country because [00:11:55] that was the rules. Once you filled, uh, 14, then you can’t [00:12:00] leave the country. You need to be ready to go to the war. So I was the only [00:12:05] person in the family, as she explained to dad that. Why don’t you send [00:12:10] Martin away? And then once he’s there, he’s outside. Hopefully he can [00:12:15] help open a path for the rest of the family. And that’s that’s what happened, [00:12:20] basically. So I started to study German, waiting for [00:12:25] arrangements to be sent to German Germany by myself. [00:12:30] It was around April time, 1986. May I turn [00:12:35] 14, So I had to the end of that year, um, to, [00:12:40] to leave basically. Summer came perfect time for me to start to study German. [00:12:45] So I was in a language school. Three months later, rumours [00:12:50] came that Germany has stopped taking refugees.

Martin Attariani: So it was [00:12:55] very panic. Plan A didn’t work out. What do we do now? Let’s find plan B. [00:13:00] One day she came back and said, well, apparently Sweden has opened their doors [00:13:05] up and and Sweden people is a new route. If you want [00:13:10] to go out, we have to send Martin to Sweden. And, you know, for us it was like way [00:13:15] Sweden, Germany we knew more about. But Sweden, it was like, uh, [00:13:20] up north is that is that, you know, Eskimos there. So [00:13:25] but it had to be that way. And that was it. Last minute. [00:13:30] We had to change all the plans. German was not needed anymore. Uh, people [00:13:35] speak Swedish in Sweden. And that was it then? Uh, they had to find a new route. And, [00:13:40] uh, she managed to get. So you couldn’t get visa to [00:13:45] many countries because we were on the war. She managed to get a [00:13:50] visa to East Berlin. It was [00:13:55] the West and East Germany at the time. Yeah. But what she did, uh, is [00:14:00] that she planned a route. A flight route that would take me from Tehran [00:14:05] to West Berlin. From there, I would change plane [00:14:10] to East Berlin. But [00:14:15] with one hour’s stop in Stockholm, in Sweden. So [00:14:20] I was given all the instructions.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:14:25] were the.

Martin Attariani: Instructions? The instructions was you take the plane from Tehran [00:14:30] when you get to West Berlin. You’re one [00:14:35] of my cousins. Were living there at the time. Your cousin will pick you up from the airport. You spend one [00:14:40] night with her, she will drop you off back to the airport the following day. [00:14:45] You hop on the plane. You take the plane to [00:14:50] East Berlin. You have to make sure you get off the plane when it [00:14:55] stops in Stockholm. And that’s. That’s what I did. I [00:15:00] had one bag with me. Just. Just one duffel bag. And we got [00:15:05] to the airport at five in the morning on that day. Uh, 22nd of September, 1986. [00:15:10] Those are dates and times that you’d never forget. And, um, [00:15:15] obviously, that age, you know, very nervous about how things are going [00:15:20] to go. But, you know, I was I was.

Payman Langroudi: So you got to Stockholm.

Martin Attariani: Adamant [00:15:25] that I’m just gonna do it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: So I got to West Berlin, spend [00:15:30] the night there? On my way to Stockholm. As [00:15:35] per the instructions, I went into the toilet on the [00:15:40] plane and I had to shred my passport.

Payman Langroudi: They told you to do that?

Martin Attariani: Yeah. [00:15:45]

Payman Langroudi: So you could arrive with no papers?

Martin Attariani: Exactly. Because if I had [00:15:50] my passport with me, they would force me. They could potentially force me on the same plane and carry [00:15:55] on to Berlin. So what? I ended up in Berlin. So I had to shred my passport. [00:16:00] And that was the probably the most scariest thing I had to do. [00:16:05] 14 on, you know, on that day. And I remember just [00:16:10] shaking as I was doing it. I managed to rip everything up, small pieces [00:16:15] flushing the toilet, and I got to the to the plastic folder [00:16:20] and I was like, what? Nobody told me what to do with this. I remember I was like, well, [00:16:25] what do I do with this, you know? Still scared, but I can’t stop now. There’s [00:16:30] evidence that I’ve got a passport, and I just managed to find [00:16:35] a tiny little crack between the cabinetry. And I just. I just, [00:16:40] you know, I just pushed it through, and, you know, that [00:16:45] was only that was quite traumatic because I knew I was doing something, you know, [00:16:50] illegal potentially. And till this day, 38 years [00:16:55] later, I can’t get on a plane and go to the toilet without, you know, [00:17:00] getting a vivid image of that day or every single [00:17:05] time I’m on a plane. I’ve told you before as well. Every time, you know it’s with me all the time anyways. [00:17:10] Got to the to Stockholm airport and I waited for [00:17:15] an hour again, as per the instructions. Wait for the plane to carry on [00:17:20] and leave the airport. And then, um, I was just sat, well, [00:17:25] hung around in the bathroom again at the airport. Uh, then [00:17:30] I walked up to a police in the end. Um, and I said, I’m [00:17:35] here to seek refugee. Not knowing English a lot. Obviously, I [00:17:40] had practice. I knew what was going on. I was had instructions, what to say.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:17:45] what did they do with you then?

Martin Attariani: Yeah. So? So I was at the airport for 24 hours. Um, [00:17:50] they gave me took me to another hall, I think, because it was even [00:17:55] the Swedish government and police and immigration [00:18:00] services, they were not ready for this. All of a sudden they had an influx [00:18:05] of miners coming to the country. Yeah. So I was sent to a refugee [00:18:10] camp like anybody else. And I remember that was put into a room [00:18:15] with three other adults.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Martin Attariani: And every night [00:18:20] they would drink, get drunk and everything. I was in [00:18:25] my bad. I remember that I used to hide my. I had a bit of money with me. I would [00:18:30] just put all my valuables under my pillow, and I would sleep with my [00:18:35] one eye open because I was, you know, I was a kid. Yeah. So, um, [00:18:40] that was not very pleasant at all. There were nice guys. No. No problem as such. But [00:18:45] again, leaving your family home and your, you know, your bedroom [00:18:50] and all of a sudden you’re sharing room with adults. So it was more that. But [00:18:55] I was there for a month and then I was moved to another refugee [00:19:00] camp until they finally send me to what they called [00:19:05] group houses. Group home in in Swedish. And [00:19:10] that was what government potentially gradually set [00:19:15] start to set up where it was an establishment with uh [00:19:20] staff and few 3 or 4 staff stuff, maybe, and then [00:19:25] 8 or 9 minor.

Payman Langroudi: Like a boarding school kind of boarding.

Martin Attariani: Situation. Like a boarding school.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:19:30] long did it take before you got to a situation that was anywhere near normality of like [00:19:35] going going to school and.

Martin Attariani: Yeah. So I was in a, in a, in a [00:19:40] initial group group house in south Sweden somewhere [00:19:45] for six months. But they did tell us that this is going to be a temporary. Yeah. So although we [00:19:50] went to school, we knew we’re not going to stay there for too long.

Payman Langroudi: So six months later you got to like [00:19:55] six months.

Martin Attariani: Later we all got spread out. It was eight of us, nine of us. And then [00:20:00] we were all spread out across the country.

Payman Langroudi: Living with the family or something.

Martin Attariani: So then [00:20:05] we went, sent to other, more permanent group [00:20:10] houses.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I.

Martin Attariani: See. Yeah. We were allocated families as well. [00:20:15] Foster families. So each child did have a family that [00:20:20] they could spend time with.

Payman Langroudi: How long after that was the first time you saw your own family [00:20:25] again?

Martin Attariani: Um, so a year later. But [00:20:30] as as as this is happening with me. Yeah. My brother, my older brother. [00:20:35]

Payman Langroudi: He managed to come as well.

Martin Attariani: Um, because he couldn’t leave the country legally. [00:20:40] Yeah. My dad had to pay smugglers to get him out of Iran. [00:20:45]

Payman Langroudi: Through across the border with Turkey.

Martin Attariani: Turkey?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. And so many people who did that.

Martin Attariani: He ended [00:20:50] up in jail. They took him.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: He ended up in jail for a month. Dad [00:20:55] had to go and bribe him out, and then he carried on to Turkey. [00:21:00] The first smuggler took them all dad’s money and disappeared. [00:21:05] The second one managed to send him through in the end, after [00:21:10] six months. Once he got to the airport in Stockholm. [00:21:15] It was a group of five of them. Six of them. Maybe They [00:21:20] decided to deport them back to Turkey. I [00:21:25] found out and I managed to get a train up to Arlanda, which [00:21:30] is the airport in Stockholm. Yeah. Had I not been there. [00:21:35]

Payman Langroudi: He would have been sent back.

Martin Attariani: He would have been sent back to Turkey. And they did with the rest of the [00:21:40] crew. But because I was there, they let my brother stay. Wow. So he. [00:21:45]

Payman Langroudi: Came. That was a year later.

Martin Attariani: That was a year later. He was sent to another, [00:21:50] an adult refugee parents.

Payman Langroudi: When was the first time you saw your parents?

Martin Attariani: And then during the time? Um, [00:21:55] my older brother was in Turkey because of the problems. My [00:22:00] at that, at that point, my mom and my youngest brother were in Turkey helping [00:22:05] him. Yeah. So probably six months after him or [00:22:10] eight months, mom and my youngest brother managed to get to Sweden. [00:22:15] And then after that, a year later, Finally, dad [00:22:20] joined us in Sweden.

Payman Langroudi: So now we’re in this environment of, [00:22:25] you know, immigration being such a big issue here. When you when you see people [00:22:30] coming over on a boat or whatever, I guess you see those people differently [00:22:35] to the man in the street. Yeah.

Martin Attariani: You know.

Payman Langroudi: The man in.

Martin Attariani: My heart.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. The man in the street sort of [00:22:40] sees that as illegal immigration. Like it’s all put into that bucket. But [00:22:45] people don’t really understand that those people are running away from something. Right. It’s.

Martin Attariani: You [00:22:50] know, I read and it’s happening quite often. Unfortunately. People dying. [00:22:55]

Payman Langroudi: 50 this year, 50 this.

Martin Attariani: Year. It’s heartbreaking because I was one [00:23:00] of them. Yeah. But I was fortunate enough to, you [00:23:05] know, get to the other side without losing my life. But it does break my heart when I [00:23:10] read it. And I can understand why they’re doing it, why they actually taking [00:23:15] such a big risk. Many times people think, how [00:23:20] could your parents send you away at that young age?

Payman Langroudi: But [00:23:25] the other choice was.

Martin Attariani: You have to be in that situation. What are the choices? [00:23:30] If you ask my parents now, they still say that was [00:23:35] the toughest thing we ever did. But if you have to do it again, we probably wouldn’t [00:23:40] do it again for 14 days. My parents didn’t know whether I made it to Sweden [00:23:45] or not for 14 days. Not knowing before.

Payman Langroudi: Mobile phones, before [00:23:50] internet. Right?

Martin Attariani: It took 14 days before I managed to speak [00:23:55] to them over the phone. So just imagine that. My mum says [00:24:00] I was just cursing myself for sending you away because we thought you dead. [00:24:05] We thought something’s happened to you. Yeah, it was back before these times. You didn’t know [00:24:10] anything about the rest of the world. You know, you didn’t have Google. You don’t have any [00:24:15] information about where Sweden is. Maybe he froze to death over there. He [00:24:20] was very tough. They had sleepless nights for 14 days until [00:24:25] I managed to make the first contact. Even the phone. I used to have my [00:24:30] whole pocket full of coins, and I only managed to speak for 30s [00:24:35] while I’m doing this and putting.

Payman Langroudi: I remember, I remember international [00:24:40] calls were super expensive, so expensive.

Martin Attariani: I remember and my parents didn’t [00:24:45] even have a phone at home, so dad would have to go [00:24:50] sit.

Payman Langroudi: Somewhere, call centres.

Martin Attariani: And wait for me to [00:24:55] call. It took 14 days before we managed to make [00:25:00] the first contact and say, I’m safe, I’m in Sweden.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think that’s given you like [00:25:05] a survival instinct? Like an independence? Like when I think about my kid at 14 [00:25:10] who had everything given to him on a plate. Or your kids, I’m sure. Yeah. Do [00:25:15] you think you’ve got. You’ve got something from that?

Martin Attariani: Absolutely. I mean, he [00:25:20] completely changed me as a as a person.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but something beneficial, right?

Martin Attariani: Absolutely. I mean, [00:25:25] since since then, I’ve just been extremely independent, self-reliant. [00:25:30] And, you know, I once you’ve gone through that, you think I can’t go through [00:25:35] anything? Yeah. Um, not that you’re not scared of anything. You’re still scared [00:25:40] of situations you’re put into, but you are prepared to take risks. [00:25:45] Yeah. You are. Just approach everything differently because [00:25:50] of that background. So it really changes you as [00:25:55] a person. Wouldn’t be who I am today if it wasn’t for that, obviously. [00:26:00]

Payman Langroudi: What a story. And you know, people talk about why didn’t you stop at the first safe country. People [00:26:05] talk about that now. Why do people come from France to the UK? Yeah. Yeah. And that ignores [00:26:10] the fact that, you know, we sign up to the Geneva Convention, right? The Geneva Convention doesn’t say that. [00:26:15] You get out of the country and go to the first safe country. The Geneva Convention says, you go to wherever you go to [00:26:20] and make an application there. And then people say, why do people [00:26:25] come without their papers? Yeah, because there’s no legal routes to come. Yeah. And you’re [00:26:30] running. Exactly. And people don’t understand that.

Martin Attariani: No, no. When you [00:26:35] are in that situation, you just want out. You don’t care where.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Anywhere. [00:26:40]

Payman Langroudi: Philly. Did you come on a.

Vinne Attariani: I didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Were you a.

Vinne Attariani: Legal. [00:26:45]

Payman Langroudi: Were you a legal immigrant?

Vinne Attariani: I was actually there is a little bit of illegality [00:26:50] about how I got here. Um, how did I get.

Payman Langroudi: You were brought up in Canada. [00:26:55]

Vinne Attariani: I was born in Canada. So my parents immigrated in 1975 [00:27:00] from India. So my dad, um, left India. He actually. Actually, my [00:27:05] dad left first. He lived in the UK for a couple of years for us, did a [00:27:10] bit of work here and then emigrated to Canada, where he worked at [00:27:15] a large aluminium factory called Alcan. That’s where Alcan [00:27:20] is, in a tiny little town that no one’s ever heard of. Um, it’s called Kitimat [00:27:25] in British Columbia. Um. Up north. Yeah. So we’re closer to Alaska [00:27:30] than Vancouver. A bit cold, yeah. Bit cold. But you used to get nice snow, you know, proper [00:27:35] snow. Yeah, yeah. None of these little speckly, you know, wet stuff. Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. [00:27:40] And then, um. Yeah. So my mum came from India straight to Kitimat, and [00:27:45] then I was born in 76, in this little valley town between [00:27:50] two mountains. And it was beautiful, you know. Beautiful place to grow up. Really safe place to grow up. [00:27:55] Um, I’m one of five girls, so I’m the eldest. [00:28:00]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Vinne Attariani: My parents tried five times for a boy, I would say. Um, so [00:28:05] now dad’s gone.

Payman Langroudi: So imagine that story like that was 100% [00:28:10] true.

Vinne Attariani: They always had true story.

Payman Langroudi: That’s not a joke.

Vinne Attariani: Are you supposed to be a boy? You’re just one big disappointment, [00:28:15] though. Um, so I was the honorary son. Eldest child. Most [00:28:20] responsibilities growing up. Um. And yes, my dad worked. I grew up with my [00:28:25] dad working two jobs to support the family. Mum lived at. Well. Mum was a housewife [00:28:30] looking after her five girls. And my childhood was [00:28:35] not, as you know, exciting as Martin’s, right? But, you know, it wasn’t. [00:28:40] But it was. I grew up in a really safe, safe place. Safe environment. Very, [00:28:45] um, strict parents, you know, with, like, an Indian Sikh background. My parents, [00:28:50] you know, first generation coming from India. You know, they were very strict. I wasn’t allowed [00:28:55] to go out. I wasn’t allowed to have friends or go to friend’s houses. It was all about studying [00:29:00] and education. My dad was a teacher in India. So for him, education was a really big thing. [00:29:05] And then with us obviously being all girls, his his main goal was [00:29:10] that I want my all my daughters to be educated. He didn’t want us to have [00:29:15] to ever depend, I suppose, on a man, you know, to [00:29:20] be independent or earn your own, have your own job, make your own money, um, [00:29:25] stand on your own two feet.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting when you have kids, you realise how important that actually [00:29:30] is.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Especially for a girl. You know.

Vinne Attariani: As much as you.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t want a girl for.

Vinne Attariani: A.

Payman Langroudi: Girl on [00:29:35] a on a on a guy.

Vinne Attariani: Because I think.

Payman Langroudi: For, for for money, you know, you’d be able to do your [00:29:40] own. Get away, get out of any situation. Right.

Vinne Attariani: Exactly. I think obviously, because our parents have grown up [00:29:45] in India, you know, the the background there is different, isn’t it, for I think for [00:29:50] females and males it is a lot different there. So dad obviously was very overprotective of us. [00:29:55] Um, we used to get get away from doing housework all the time, which was the best thing. You know, if mom’s like, oh, [00:30:00] I need the girls to do work. They’re like, no, no, they’re studying. They’re, you know, doing their education. Let them be. So [00:30:05] yeah, my childhood was just like, you’re going to study, you’re going to become a doctor of something. Of [00:30:10] course, of course. Yeah. Um, and yeah. So my [00:30:15] dad fell. Once they fell ill. But he did [00:30:20] have a bit of an injury when I was about 15. And he did start to get some [00:30:25] heart conditions where I think he started to worry about our future [00:30:30] because obviously there was no son in the family. You kind of. So there was a lot of pressure [00:30:35] on me to do well, to set the example for the rest of the sisters as well. [00:30:40] And I think with part of that, they still obviously carried that mentality of [00:30:45] arranged marriages, you know, daughter getting married and, um, you [00:30:50] know, the sort of boyfriend or pick your own husband back at that time. [00:30:55] And I then was introduced and [00:31:00] arranged to be married when I was 17. So I moved [00:31:05] here in 1994. Got married.

Payman Langroudi: Did you have a say [00:31:10] in it? Surely.

Vinne Attariani: Well, so it was. It was, I did, [00:31:15] and I didn’t know. Not that I didn’t know I was. I was probably [00:31:20] too scared to say to my parents that I didn’t want to. It was, it was quite. [00:31:25] It was like that, um, you know, it was was, it was it was [00:31:30] a loving environment, but it was kind of like I think it was expected. So I still got raised the old [00:31:35] fashioned way.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And you didn’t know any better.

Vinne Attariani: And I didn’t know any different. And you know, this is what Indian [00:31:40] girls do. And you just follow what your parents say.

Payman Langroudi: And often, often [00:31:45] people, immigrants often are even more traditional than the people back home [00:31:50] because they’re almost like overcompensating for being abroad.

Vinne Attariani: Because they probably feel [00:31:55] they’re fighting everything. They’re fighting all the, you know, the modern life.

Payman Langroudi: And by that time, Maybe back [00:32:00] home it wasn’t as strict as. But because your parents moved over there trying to keep some things, [00:32:05] to try to.

Vinne Attariani: Keep all their traditions and everything. Right. And they obviously don’t know any better because that’s how they were [00:32:10] raised. Yeah. And so yeah. So we moved here. We all came for the wedding 1994, [00:32:15] and my family was with me for about two weeks. And then they all left and I was still here. [00:32:20] But what did help was that the, um, my ex now, but his [00:32:25] dad and my dad were really good friends, and I think my dad made a point of [00:32:30] making sure that I was going to get married into a family where I would be looked after, and that they would understand [00:32:35] that she is going to study and do her education. That was really important to him because I was 17, I just finished [00:32:40] what is equivalent of A-levels. So it was like high school, I just graduated. And part of the [00:32:45] sort of, you know, discussion was that my daughter has to go to university straight away and [00:32:50] is my ex is a doctor, medical doctor. And [00:32:55] so there was, you know, education did run in their family. So yeah. It was.

Payman Langroudi: So you studied [00:33:00] here?

Vinne Attariani: He studied. So I studied here. Yeah. Birmingham, so I yeah. So I graduated in 2000, [00:33:05] so qualified in 2000 and had both my sons in my [00:33:10] undergraduate.

Payman Langroudi: We live in Birmingham.

Vinne Attariani: I was living in Birmingham at that point. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:33:15] yeah. So both your sons in undergrad?

Vinne Attariani: Both my sons are always. We always laugh. [00:33:20] I was the strange Canadian girl in the first year. And then I was the the the girl with a funny accent [00:33:25] who was pregnant in the second year. Third year I was the funny accent Canadian with a [00:33:30] baby. So I always stuck out. I always I stuck out initially because I was from Canada and [00:33:35] then I was married and then now I’ve got a kid and then I got pregnant again in my final year. So [00:33:40] yeah, my final year of photos. I was 41 weeks pregnant with my second child. [00:33:45]

Martin Attariani: To have.

Vinne Attariani: Children.

Martin Attariani: Through dentistry.

Vinne Attariani: Do you.

Martin Attariani: Still [00:33:50] make.

Vinne Attariani: It? And but I look back, I think I don’t think I could do that the Vinnie now, I don’t think I could [00:33:55] do that now. I was, I was I was very mature [00:34:00] for my age. I feel because one I was I had a lot of pressure from my parents [00:34:05] and I kind of I accepted that role and responsibility very [00:34:10] well.

Payman Langroudi: What was the urgency to have kids? I mean, couldn’t you wait until after you qualified to have kids? [00:34:15] Like what? Conversations.

Vinne Attariani: There was no urgency. Do you know what? They were both [00:34:20] unplanned. Oh, they were both unplanned. But I always say to them they were the best two mistakes [00:34:25] I’ve ever made. Because of course, yeah, they were. It was. I would not have done it [00:34:30] any other way. It was obviously brilliant. You know, I graduated with a almost three year old. [00:34:35]

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting in its own way. That’s what gives you strength, right? Getting [00:34:40] through that massive shift from Canada to Birmingham to dental school to. [00:34:45]

Martin Attariani: Another young.

Payman Langroudi: Mother of.

Vinne Attariani: Three. Well, no, I had my son was three when I graduated. [00:34:50] Mother of two. Yeah. So I’ve got no two boys now.

Payman Langroudi: Two boys. Two boys.

Vinne Attariani: Two boys.

Payman Langroudi: What a.

Vinne Attariani: Story. So, um. And [00:34:55] they just grew. I grew up along with me. I was still a kid, you know. I remember sitting there with [00:35:00] my then three year old, still pregnant, playing like Super Mario, you know, as a 20 [00:35:05] year old just before final exams. So, um, yeah, they just grew alongside [00:35:10] with me, and it was the best.

Payman Langroudi: And how old are they now?

Vinne Attariani: So now you ask [00:35:15] me. Well, eldest is 27 and my youngest is 24.

Payman Langroudi: And how old [00:35:20] are yours?

Martin Attariani: So mine. I’ve got two daughters and I’ve got 127 as well. I’m [00:35:25] 27. So Amanda and Cameron. Same age. 27? Yeah. And then Miranda’s [00:35:30] 26.

Payman Langroudi: So you started early too?

Martin Attariani: Yeah.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Because we’re the [00:35:35] same age.

Martin Attariani: I was 25 when I had, uh. Amanda. I’m four years older [00:35:40] than Renee.

Payman Langroudi: What was the story of you going into dentistry, and what were you like as a what you studied [00:35:45] in Sweden? Yes. Did you did you manage to get in easily? And then [00:35:50] what were what were you like? What were you like, sir?

Martin Attariani: So I was 19, right? I was [00:35:55] 19.

Payman Langroudi: And you did other things before then?

Martin Attariani: Well, I just finished school then, uh, or A-levels. [00:36:00] And my dad was very keen. He could see I’ve always been very good [00:36:05] with my hands and very artistic and, you know, building stuff. You [00:36:10] know, I was into computers very early. I had a computer when I was 17. Commodore [00:36:15] 64. I don’t know if you remember.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Of course. That was my first computer.

Payman Langroudi: I remember, you.

Martin Attariani: Know, seeing [00:36:20] I was putting my own computer together and everything so he could see all that. And he [00:36:25] he used to say, do you know what, dentistry. Because my dad used to work within [00:36:30] the healthcare system in Iran when he was in Air Force. He used to [00:36:35] say, look, dentistry is really good. You should become a dentist. It will suit you. Yeah. [00:36:40] And at that time, I was like, dad, there’s no way I’m gonna be setting people, people [00:36:45] watching, people looking people in the mouth day in, day out. That is not for me. So. [00:36:50] Um, I used to enjoy chemistry at the time. I [00:36:55] really enjoyed the subject, so I carried on doing. I did two years chemical [00:37:00] engineering. Wow. From there, I fell in love with biochemistry. [00:37:05] And then I did my master’s in biochemistry for another, [00:37:10] uh, three years.

Payman Langroudi: So what were you thinking? Were you thinking career wise? [00:37:15]

Martin Attariani: Yeah. So I.

Payman Langroudi: Was.

Martin Attariani: Thinking, like, I really enjoying it. And the education was absolutely [00:37:20] for me was really interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Job. Did you think you were going to do?

Martin Attariani: So I wanted to get into pharmaceutical [00:37:25] companies. So where I used to live in Gothenburg, Astra Zeneca, [00:37:30] which was only Astra back then, the HQ is in Gothenburg, Sweden, so [00:37:35] I was aiming for Astra. Unfortunately the year I finished 97 [00:37:40] they were not taking on anybody at all and that [00:37:45] carried on for maybe two years. They would not take anybody on. So I started to apply [00:37:50] for other jobs. But at the same time I had Amanda was just born [00:37:55] and Miranda was, uh, on her way because it was only a year between [00:38:00] the two girls. So I was like, well, I have to do something. And, uh, because I [00:38:05] was good with computers and everything while I was searching for jobs, [00:38:10] um, I sell my own marketing company, [00:38:15] so I bought a computer, and, uh, I bought some old [00:38:20] machinery to produce letters. So a vinyl [00:38:25] cutter from somebody that I knew, he said, [00:38:30] well, while you’re waiting, why don’t you do this? Yeah. Uh, well, you can do this, uh, [00:38:35] on the side. So at the time, my ex-wife had a hair salon, the [00:38:40] back of the hair salon. It was a big room that was not being used.

Payman Langroudi: This was your.

Martin Attariani: Great. [00:38:45] You know, I can at least bring him money for the family while I’m searching for jobs. [00:38:50] And that’s what I did. And, um. Great job. Uh, [00:38:55] you make really good money in marketing. Uh, as you know, even today, I think [00:39:00] if I stop doing dentistry one day, I’ll happily go back to that branch. [00:39:05] Honestly, it’s very good. Good job, good money. Um, [00:39:10] but then I just. I just carried on because it was I was [00:39:15] doing fine. And it gave me flexibility to [00:39:20] be around my daughters, which I really treasured at the time. Yeah. So because [00:39:25] it was my own business, I would be home. Yeah. Dropped them [00:39:30] off to school, picked them up. Yeah. And made the most out of being with my [00:39:35] daughters when they were that young. So it suited me. After a few [00:39:40] years, I started to miss my intellectual side of me. [00:39:45] So I was like, okay, maybe I should carry on doing, [00:39:50] um, do my PhD. Maybe [00:39:55] I can stand out more than, uh, and get a job as a, as a [00:40:00] as a PhD, um, qualified chemist. So [00:40:05] that was my aim. I started to look into getting obviously a position as [00:40:10] it happened. I was in town one day and I just [00:40:15] came across two of my friends, well, people I knew from uni when [00:40:20] I was doing my undergraduate master’s degree education, basically. [00:40:25] Um, and they were doing their PhD at the time, and [00:40:30] when I met them in town, I was like, okay, well, you finished, how’s it going for you guys? [00:40:35] Both of them were jobless. So I was like, well, [00:40:40] I definitely don’t want to go to another four years of PhD degree and end up in the same situation. [00:40:45] This is 2000. In 2000, I actually came to [00:40:50] London looking for a job as a chemist over here. And, [00:40:55] uh, I was staying with two of my friends who studied [00:41:00] dentistry when I was studying chemistry. We were in the same, [00:41:05] same uni.

Payman Langroudi: They’d moved to London by this time.

Martin Attariani: By that.

Payman Langroudi: Time.

Martin Attariani: They were in London practising. [00:41:10]

Payman Langroudi: Because dental school in Sweden is full of Iranians. I went [00:41:15] to the dental school in Gothenburg and I saw the when it would have been 2008, [00:41:20] nine, ten. So around then, and I saw the [00:41:25] list of students and it was like 70% Iranians. Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Did [00:41:30] you see my picture there?

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know.

Martin Attariani: Yeah. It was, it was, [00:41:35] it was especially at that time, probably 50% of, of [00:41:40] each, year was, was, was Iranians. And that’s why you have. [00:41:45]

Payman Langroudi: Such then came here.

Martin Attariani: And they moved here. That’s why you have so many Iranians, Swedish dentists, [00:41:50] especially in London, you see a lot of them.

Payman Langroudi: So then so then you decide, I’m going to study dentistry.

Martin Attariani: Do [00:41:55] you know what? One day I was going to job centres to find a job as a chemist. [00:42:00] And then one day I came to my friend, uh, friends, uh, practice, uh, and [00:42:05] I sat as I sat in the waiting room waiting for him to finish work so we can go [00:42:10] home. I looked around, well, I said, you know, this is really nice. You [00:42:15] get to see people, you get to help people out. And it’s a, you [00:42:20] know, respectable profession. And at the time, I was like, if [00:42:25] nobody gives me a job, I set up my own business. At least I’m not [00:42:30] relying on that. And that was it. That evening I called my ex-wife. I said, [00:42:35] I’m coming home. And she said, oh, you got a job? I said, no.

Payman Langroudi: How did you [00:42:40] feed the family while you do five years of dental school?

Martin Attariani: Yeah. So.

Payman Langroudi: So I [00:42:45] still did marketing on the side.

Martin Attariani: So I had my business. I had my business.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. So [00:42:50] quick question. Quick question. Before you go any further. Um, I know you’re one of these guys. I’ve [00:42:55] known you a while, right? You kind of love technology and you love dentistry. Well, [00:43:00] you’re one of the people who loves dentistry more than most. You and Depeche? Yeah. Love teeth [00:43:05] man. Yes, probably. And. But there. Has the chemistry helped [00:43:10] at all?

Martin Attariani: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Because often, I mean, I’m in a situation now where I’m like, gosh, [00:43:15] should I be paying more attention than chemistry levels, man? Yeah. You know, I’m trying to get bioglass [00:43:20] into a desensitiser. The guy goes, oh yeah, it’s calcium. Sodium phosphosilicate. [00:43:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s one of the seven ingredients of this. [00:43:30] Yeah. So how has it helped? So bonding and all that?

Martin Attariani: Do you know what? Um, so firstly, [00:43:35] when I did, um, the the education. Yeah. Uh, everybody [00:43:40] were dreading biochemistry.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you were cool. Right. You’ve done it all.

Martin Attariani: I didn’t even have to do it. [00:43:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: So I didn’t even I skipped that. Um, I can’t remember. Four months of biochemistry. [00:43:50]

Payman Langroudi: That was easy for you.

Martin Attariani: I didn’t have to do it at all.

Payman Langroudi: I didn’t have to even go. I [00:43:55] didn’t even do it. So you’re busy printing marketing?

Martin Attariani: No, I was just. I was actually [00:44:00] doing my business, and it was good. Um, the university [00:44:05] and my business and my home was just ten minutes, 15 minutes from, [00:44:10] um, away from each other. So that’s exactly what I used to do.

Payman Langroudi: Were you top of your class?

Martin Attariani: So, [00:44:15] um.

Payman Langroudi: Or were you middle or were you like me?

Martin Attariani: I think I was probably, [00:44:20] um, you know, I was probably one of the best, so I [00:44:25] think I think, you know, the lowest I got in [00:44:30] any exam for dentistry was 85%.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah. [00:44:35]

Martin Attariani: But I think I owe that to my [00:44:40] excitement for the education. I really love [00:44:45] that education, and I think having that chemistry background [00:44:50] helped me to understand and or grow [00:44:55] more passion, because by that time I was on a molecular [00:45:00] level, I my understanding was just the very tiniest molecules. [00:45:05]

Payman Langroudi: That clicked for.

Martin Attariani: You. I had no idea or education about what [00:45:10] this means in the bigger organs, which is the [00:45:15] human. When I did dentistry, everything just fell into place [00:45:20] and it was like, this is amazing. I was like a sponge. How amazing. By the [00:45:25] second year, because we did, um, general medicine the first two years. And one [00:45:30] day I came home and I said to my wife, I’m going to change to medicine. I want to become a doctor. [00:45:35] This is amazing.

Payman Langroudi: I wish it was over the moon about that.

Martin Attariani: Honestly. And [00:45:40] I did change my mind. And I’m happy I did. Yeah. Um. And [00:45:45] what put me off is, again, having small children, I was like, it’s going to be a hospital job. [00:45:50] It’s going to be more demanding hours and everything. I don’t want that. So I changed my mind [00:45:55] again. I stuck to to dentist, which I’m thrilled that I did.

Payman Langroudi: And did you work in Sweden [00:46:00] at all before you moved here?

Martin Attariani: So between the last two terms, we [00:46:05] were allowed to work as as a dentist. So then [00:46:10] I did three months dentistry in Sweden. And then when I finished my last term. [00:46:15] Then I’ll move straight away here.

Payman Langroudi: To the UK.

Martin Attariani: To the UK.

Payman Langroudi: And what were your initial [00:46:20] like feelings? Because the standard in Sweden is definitely [00:46:25] higher, I would say, and definitely much more prevention based.

Martin Attariani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:46:30] then I guess that practice. I know the practice in Coventry is a mixed bag. Like it’s a. Yeah, [00:46:35] but how did you feel the first time you saw the NHS.

Martin Attariani: You know.

Payman Langroudi: System [00:46:40] and.

Martin Attariani: All that? I was.

Payman Langroudi: Shocked.

Martin Attariani: So the first day I came to work.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:46:45]

Martin Attariani: And I had a full list of patients obviously. [00:46:50] Yeah. And 40 I remember the first patient was 40 minutes [00:46:55] Crown prep and I was like, [00:47:00] is this how you know? But [00:47:05] I was thrown into it straight away. So I was shocked. But I was like, [00:47:10] let’s get on with it.

Payman Langroudi: I was told a story recently that, you know, in [00:47:15] NHS they pride themselves. Some people pride themselves on speed.

Vinne Attariani: Yes of course.

Martin Attariani: Yeah.

Vinne Attariani: Because [00:47:20] you got, I think.

Martin Attariani: You got.

Vinne Attariani: Targets to hit and you think.

Martin Attariani: It’s brilliant. I think it’s brilliant [00:47:25] experience. And I always say once you nearly qualified you need [00:47:30] NHS work.

Payman Langroudi: I still.

Martin Attariani: I still say that I.

Payman Langroudi: Disagree with that. I disagree [00:47:35] with that. Um, I know it’s it’s good. It’s a good experience. But you [00:47:40] need. Yeah, it’s a bit much. Right. Because they don’t seem to need it in Sweden and Germany. But [00:47:45] over here we need it. Yeah. Yeah. And by the way, a [00:47:50] lot of that. Hey, get your experience in the NHS. Yeah. There is another way of saying that. Make massive mistakes [00:47:55] on NHS patients.

Martin Attariani: Does it have to be. No, I don’t agree with that.

Payman Langroudi: No, but it can be. But it [00:48:00] doesn’t.

Martin Attariani: Need to be. The reason I say that.

Payman Langroudi: Sorted out in the NHS and then coming.

Martin Attariani: From the, the, [00:48:05] the intellectual side of our profession. Yeah. End of the day it’s [00:48:10] the work of hands. Yeah. Agree. Yeah. You’re only going to get experience if you’re [00:48:15] exposed to a lot of treatments. So it’s not about making mistakes on the [00:48:20] NHS. It’s about getting the experience up quickly because [00:48:25] you’ve got a bigger It turnaround of patients on [00:48:30] the NHS. That’s where you’re going to do a lot of dentures. I know [00:48:35] that’s where you’re going to do lots of root canals. That’s where you’re going to do lots of crowns.

Payman Langroudi: We’re all aware of [00:48:40] that, right.

Vinne Attariani: I think I mean like for example, vocational training. So I feel was very important [00:48:45] for me because, because, because you need that transition between coming out of dental [00:48:50] school where you might have done like five fillings. Right. I haven’t even done a complete [00:48:55] root canal. I did 1 or 2 crowns. Right. I would never want to go into private practice [00:49:00] coming out of dental school. That vocational training, even just that even 1 to 2 [00:49:05] years in some sort of system where it’s not driven by udas and targets, but you’re [00:49:10] in a bit of a safer, supervised environment where you can take [00:49:15] the time and, you know, not make your mistakes, but find your feet, find your confidence, [00:49:20] learn how to speak to patients because you don’t even learn anything about communication or interactions. [00:49:25] And and you know, just how to work as a team, how to work as a leader, [00:49:30] how to work as a follower. There’s so much to learn about practice that you do not learn in dental school. And then [00:49:35] you can’t afford to jump straight into private practice and then make these mistakes. Your mistakes don’t [00:49:40] have to be just hands on dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: I know someone, I know someone, um, [00:49:45] maybe, you know, he qualified the day after qualifying, went [00:49:50] into a master’s program in Harvard. So he qualified here.

Martin Attariani: And why is he now.

Payman Langroudi: In [00:49:55] the master’s program at Harvard?

Martin Attariani: But he’s a specialist now.

Payman Langroudi: No, he just started the process. So [00:50:00] he finished his five year course. Yeah. One day after straight into the master [00:50:05] program. Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And and in the process of program, I think they placed, I don’t know, 120 [00:50:10] implants or something. And they do full mouth rehabs and, and all of that. So he’s never [00:50:15] going to see at the end of that. He can practice as a specialist in six [00:50:20] states in the US. Yeah. He’s never going to see that high volume, high demand. [00:50:25]

Martin Attariani: It depends on what your path is and what you want to do.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, he’ll never be the super [00:50:30] generalist that you are. No. Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Because that’s what I mean.

Payman Langroudi: That’s somewhere we need to get to. Yeah. You [00:50:35] do everything right. You do everything to a very, very high standard. Yeah. I’ve [00:50:40] come across a few cats like that. Do you refer much or. No.

Martin Attariani: No.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:50:45] mean, you do all of your own endo.

Martin Attariani: I do all my endo’s are surgical [00:50:50] extraction.

Payman Langroudi: Wisdom teeth and all that.

Martin Attariani: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Where did you learn that?

Martin Attariani: So [00:50:55] I think, you know, we had a very good, robust, um, [00:51:00] education, uh, in Sweden, especially coming from Gothenburg. [00:51:05]

Payman Langroudi: Surgical training.

Martin Attariani: Surgically. We were, um, we were trained, uh, [00:51:10] and I placed my first implant as a student. I was the first [00:51:15] student in Gothenburg to ever place my own implant. Wow. While I was on [00:51:20] the fourth. Uh, no. Fifth year. And that’s because I’ve finished my quota for the education [00:51:25] that I had to do very early. Yeah. And I had extra time.

Payman Langroudi: So was. Was Branemark [00:51:30] in? In Gothenburg?

Martin Attariani: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We had the clinic and [00:51:35] the guy that I actually placed my first implant with, uh, Professor Larcombe, [00:51:40] he was the head of Brownmark. Well, he was one of the big [00:51:45] guys with Brownmark developing the whole implant and everything.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:51:50] now you.

Martin Attariani: Do on Linda.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Martin Attariani: You know, as.

Payman Langroudi: A.

Martin Attariani: Tutor. [00:51:55]

Payman Langroudi: All on for sinus.

Martin Attariani: Full arch implants. Uh, [00:52:00] and, uh, I do sinus lifts, bone grafts.

Payman Langroudi: And you lecture [00:52:05] on digital. Digital dentistry.

Martin Attariani: And implants. Um, I as much [00:52:10] as I have time, I love sharing. I think that’s what our profession [00:52:15] is about. It’s not just about learning, and it’s just going to be meeting [00:52:20] a good job. I think it’s about sharing with each other. That’s how we’re all gonna learn [00:52:25] from each other’s mistakes and get better at what we do. So [00:52:30] as and when I have the time, I try to to share my [00:52:35] experience.

Payman Langroudi: And ortho fixed. Ortho.

Martin Attariani: I’ve been doing fixed ortho [00:52:40] for maybe 12 years. It started it started [00:52:45] uh, it started actually with.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, six months. Smiles.

Martin Attariani: No. Was it earlier? [00:52:50] No. What was it called? The system.

Vinne Attariani: Clear step.

Payman Langroudi: Step.

Martin Attariani: Clear step started [00:52:55] with clear step aligners. It was aligners. And then it just disappeared. [00:53:00] And then it was like as a substitute. Uh, going to fix, fix, fix [00:53:05] fixed ortho. And, uh, you know, I just absolutely love [00:53:10] it. Payman. I just love it. I come to work on the same day, you know, I might [00:53:15] have a simple filling and then which I even that still excites [00:53:20] me. I did the, you know, the perfect, the most perfect way I can [00:53:25] do. And then I have an implant and a guy and an endo. And I might have [00:53:30] an ortho later. So, you know, my days are so varied and that I [00:53:35] thrive just from that.

Payman Langroudi: Why? Why do you think some of us as [00:53:40] dentists are like you, constantly learning and [00:53:45] constantly improving and constantly on the tip of the spear, trying to understand what’s [00:53:50] going on next? And then some of us get to a certain standard [00:53:55] and almost give up and don’t want to go any further. I mean, you can be a dentist [00:54:00] right now and use just a total regular matrix without rubber dam for an MOT. Or [00:54:05] you could be a dentist and rubber dam sectional matrices, photographs, [00:54:10] scans. You know, by the way, all of the stuff you do. And what’s [00:54:15] the difference between those two dentists.

Martin Attariani: Vinnie, [00:54:20] I think I think, you know, I’m in [00:54:25] in in a mindset that, you know, either you do a job and [00:54:30] you do it properly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but why.

Martin Attariani: Or you don’t do it.

Payman Langroudi: Why? That’s why I.

Martin Attariani: Think. [00:54:35]

Payman Langroudi: Like, what’s different about you compared to the next man who isn’t that guy.

Martin Attariani: I [00:54:40] think it’s for me, it’s just a passion for what I’m doing.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:54:45] but why?

Vinne Attariani: I think I think it’s a reflection of the type of person that you are. Because, like, I [00:54:50] find that I’m the sort of person that if I’m going to do something when I do it properly, if I’m going to do my workout, [00:54:55] I’m going to get the full set in. If I’m going to do a filling, I’m going to finish it properly. [00:55:00] If I’m going to everything. I think you’re the same that if we’re going to, it’s just [00:55:05] in our nature that everything that we like to do or want to do, whether [00:55:10] it’s work or whether it’s with, you know, home life, extracurricular activities [00:55:15] we do. We just. I think we’re perfectionists. I think we do like to [00:55:20] do everything perfectly. So if we’re going to do it, it’s your quality of your work is a reflection [00:55:25] of yourself. Same way you look after your health, the same way you maintain everything else in your life [00:55:30] as well. It is just not.

Martin Attariani: One reason is our background where, [00:55:35] you know, we just learn to just make [00:55:40] the most out of.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, what you said about, you know, you were up for the [00:55:45] college and all that I was what was going through my head was, you know, having been given this opportunity [00:55:50] of running away and all those fears and nightmares you went through to now finally be in [00:55:55] dental school in Sweden, you made the most of it. Whereas I was just thinking about all the years you were mentioning, [00:56:00] I was thinking about where was I, where was I, where was I, right? And I remember getting to university. Spoilt kid. [00:56:05] Yeah. Spoilt kid. Yeah.

Vinne Attariani: And we didn’t have a lot, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Looking to party. I was a spoilt kid looking [00:56:10] to party. It was a different situation. Yeah. I didn’t feel like this was a chance given to me, which.

Martin Attariani: Was the [00:56:15] majority of my classmates, exactly the same. But because I was a bit older, I [00:56:20] had my children and everything. I was more driven and I was like, goal in my head and [00:56:25] this is what I’m gonna do.

Payman Langroudi: This question of the dentist, right?

Martin Attariani: Maybe that stays with stayed with me ever since, [00:56:30] I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: But for instance, I see people from my year. We had a small year. It wasn’t a big [00:56:35] year. By the time we qualified, it was only like 50, 40 people or something. But I [00:56:40] see the same people from my year at the events and [00:56:45] all the events. Yeah, the same 3 or 4. Yeah. Why are those 3 or [00:56:50] 4 constantly coming to events, trying to trying to learn, trying to get better and all that. And the others [00:56:55] aren’t, you know, like it’s it’s a mindset thing around. And I think it’s to do with improvement. [00:57:00] And I think if you don’t, the thing about dentistry is if you don’t improve, you start to hate [00:57:05] it. That’s that’s the that’s the thing.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. If you get I think if.

Martin Attariani: Yeah.

[EVERYONE]: Sorry. [00:57:10]

Vinne Attariani: If you if because it’s constantly dynamic, right? Dentistry. Dentistry now [00:57:15] is nothing that I learned when I like is completely different from when I qualified, you know, 2000 to now. [00:57:20] So if you’re not continually moving along, you’ll fall behind. You [00:57:25] start to feel, you start to doubt yourself. You see a bigger gap between what everyone’s [00:57:30] doing and what you’re doing. And I.

[EVERYONE]: Think that creates a.

Vinne Attariani: Fear. And you start.

[EVERYONE]: To fall [00:57:35] behind. Fall behind much.

Martin Attariani: It’s difficult to catch.

Payman Langroudi: Up.

Martin Attariani: And you’re like, just [00:57:40] give up.

Payman Langroudi: I fully stopped 12 years ago, and 12 years ago I did an Invisalign case. [00:57:45] And then the day before yesterday, I was looking at my wife planning an Invisalign [00:57:50] case, and I couldn’t believe how much that had moved on.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I knew. [00:57:55] I knew that it had moved on, but I didn’t believe how much it had moved on. [00:58:00] The design of the attachments and all this crazy stuff. Back then, it just said, [00:58:05] hey, stick it here and do that. And that was the end of that.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, it keeps you engaged, doesn’t it, as [00:58:10] well. Because if you don’t do all that, you know, go on the choruses, learn stuff, read stuff, go to showcases. [00:58:15] It does get. It will get boring. It will get boring like any other job, because you become comfortable [00:58:20] and you then can’t you can’t conform to change. And that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Difficult. Listen, [00:58:25] listen. I mean, we can sit here and say, hey, that’s the guy I am and all that, but there is the work to live type [00:58:30] of person and the live to work.

Vinne Attariani: Kind.

Payman Langroudi: Of person.

Martin Attariani: But again, you’re [00:58:35] talking about a profession where you can even be that guy and still, still be [00:58:40] good, still be okay.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a good profession.

Martin Attariani: I love this profession. It’s got so many angles [00:58:45] to it that, you know, you can make whatever you want from it. You [00:58:50] can be a very driven and keep up to date with everything all the time. Or you [00:58:55] can come out from dental school and just do the work.

Payman Langroudi: Two days.

Martin Attariani: A week, and you still [00:59:00] be a successful dentist. Yeah, that’s what I love about this.

Payman Langroudi: Did you did you advise your [00:59:05] kids to become dentists?

Martin Attariani: Uh, so. I did. Yeah. [00:59:10] When they asked for my, uh, opinion. And I did [00:59:15] say to them that look, I think is, well, I probably [00:59:20] didn’t even need to say because they could see how much I loved the profession. But when it was [00:59:25] the time I did say to them, which I did to my two brothers, that’s why they are both dentists. My [00:59:30] two brothers, two younger brothers. They’re both dentists. From me getting them into dentistry, [00:59:35] because they were both Charlie was being completely different and and [00:59:40] Shahab was too young at the time. But I managed to get Charlie into dentistry. Uh, [00:59:45] and then after that, it became a bit more natural for, for my youngest to get into dentistry [00:59:50] as well.

Payman Langroudi: Did you advise your kids or would you advise your kids to become dentists? [00:59:55] Not that it helps, you know. Not that anyone’s listening to anyone.

[EVERYONE]: Yeah. Are you going to say no? [01:00:00]

Vinne Attariani: Do you know what I did with my, um. With my eldest? And [01:00:05] he just you know, one, he can’t stand the sight of blood. Okay. He used to worry him. He used [01:00:10] to come out. Just fair enough. He used to come for work, experience, spend. They they spent a lot of time [01:00:15] in dental practice as they were growing up because they, you know, we just wanted to take them in. We were on call or come [01:00:20] in after school and and he just did not used to like it. He just [01:00:25] did not see anything enjoyable about it. He can’t stand needles like, you know. So [01:00:30] needles blood wasn’t his thing at all. I thought, you know what, let him do what he wants to do. [01:00:35] Same as like Martin. Now, he did dentistry when he was after his first degree.

Martin Attariani: I [01:00:40] thought he was 29 when I started.

Vinne Attariani: I said, it’s not your first degree. Doesn’t have to be your last one. [01:00:45] So I thought, you know, he can do something he wants to do. Should he choose to change direction later. He [01:00:50] could always do it later. So it didn’t. It didn’t bother me that they didn’t want to do it.

Martin Attariani: But you can only advise them end [01:00:55] of the day, right? So it’s up to them and their interests, what they like.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve you’ve [01:01:00] been in the same practice for 17 years.

Martin Attariani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And how long have [01:01:05] you been at Houston Place?

Vinne Attariani: 13 years.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. 13 years?

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, 13 years now.

Payman Langroudi: And Tiff talks about [01:01:10] this a lot about the best teacher being your own patients, seeing seeing [01:01:15] your own results. Yeah. And and yet I spoke to some young dentists and [01:01:20] they think the best education is moving around a lot to see how people run their practices. [01:01:25] You know, and I think I think, you know, there’s, there’s there’s some sort of benefit [01:01:30] in both ideas, both ideas. But in the short period that I did dentistry, that, [01:01:35] you know, some of the best lessons I learned were lessons taught [01:01:40] to me by my own crappy work. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Martin Attariani: I think so.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:01:45] massive, isn’t it? It’s huge.

Martin Attariani: I think, you know, uh, I think it’s important [01:01:50] to be able to, um, see your [01:01:55] own work after.

Vinne Attariani: Yes, after, like ten years.

Martin Attariani: When you see your [01:02:00] work after ten years.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: That’s when you can start your [01:02:05] thought process.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Am I being a good dentist or not? [01:02:10] With my work? And I think that’s that’s priceless to be in that position. [01:02:15]

Payman Langroudi: It’s difficult to get that education anywhere else, isn’t it?

Martin Attariani: Yeah, exactly. [01:02:20] It’s good to probably when you start off to go different practices and everything. [01:02:25] Get as much as, you know, different.

Payman Langroudi: To different things.

Martin Attariani: Exactly. But I [01:02:30] think long term you would benefit from being in one place [01:02:35] and get to see your own work. I mean, you see, you know, beautiful cases on, on, [01:02:40] on social media. I want to see that case in ten years time because [01:02:45] we are working on people, and [01:02:50] it’s the long term result that counts. And you’re only going to see that [01:02:55] if you are at the same practice and you get to see, I mean, you know, I see [01:03:00] my own implants. I play 16 years ago. Mhm. You know, it’s it’s [01:03:05] teaches you invaluable, uh, information that I can.

Payman Langroudi: Not to mention. [01:03:10] Yeah. That, you know, when I, I gave up um once [01:03:15] only once you give up, you realise what you miss. Yeah. Like exactly [01:03:20] what it is you miss.

Martin Attariani: Why did he give up?

Payman Langroudi: I was too.

Martin Attariani: Busy.

Payman Langroudi: I was too busy. I was.

Martin Attariani: Too busy. [01:03:25]

Payman Langroudi: I was I was too busy. I was doing one day a week for a long time. Then I had a crappy day. Forget [01:03:30] it. But, um, the other part of being [01:03:35] in the same place for a long time. What do I miss about being a dentist? Yeah. Is the conversations [01:03:40] with the humans? Yeah, yeah. And I know you two are humans, but right now, I [01:03:45] only speak to dentists. Yeah. Yeah, or mainly speak to dentists. And dentists are great. And I [01:03:50] love dentists. And you have a good time with dentists and, you know, barrel of laughs.

Vinne Attariani: Special type of people.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:03:55] seeing a patient every six months And especially in private practice, where [01:04:00] you have time to talk to people and talking to people is actually the biggest business builder. Yes. [01:04:05] You know, so talking is not only pleasurable but also profitable in private practice. [01:04:10] So it makes a hell of a lot of sense to really get to know your patients. You [01:04:15] you see lives of families. You see little kids grow up.

Martin Attariani: Kids a [01:04:20] uni now at my practice, you know, I see them. I’ve been seeing them since you were five.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:04:25] only stayed somewhere for five years. Was the longest I stayed anywhere. But, you know, in 17 years. Yeah. You’ve. [01:04:30]

Martin Attariani: You’re part of that community.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And I don’t know, you’re the kind of guy that [01:04:35] you might. Let’s say I had to make you stop tomorrow. Yeah. You might miss the tech [01:04:40] as much as you miss the humans. Yeah. I don’t miss the teeth particularly. [01:04:45] I don’t miss necessarily the Meccano part of it. I don’t particularly I wasn’t [01:04:50] any good at treatment planning anyway. So I don’t miss any of that. And I know some people adore those, but I [01:04:55] 100% miss the human interaction? Yeah. Which was staying in one place. Makes a big difference. [01:05:00] Yeah. You know, and 13 years is a long time, too. Now, your situation is you’re sort [01:05:05] of in a partnership situation.

Vinne Attariani: Partnership. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I know Doug very [01:05:10] well. Yeah. Yeah. It’s very different. Right?

Vinne Attariani: It is very different.

Payman Langroudi: In some ways. It’s the [01:05:15] worst of all worlds. No.

Vinne Attariani: No. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So from [01:05:20] the perspective of you haven’t got control really, because you have to convince four other people.

Vinne Attariani: Do you know what [01:05:25] helps is that one, um, three of us are from the same university. So one [01:05:30] partner, Doug. Doug, who’s the year below me? Um, Paul was in the [01:05:35] year above me. And then the other partner, Charlie, is a mutual friend [01:05:40] of the other two. And, you know, we’ve all got the same. The same mindset.

Payman Langroudi: Same ethos.

Vinne Attariani: Same mindset. [01:05:45] Yeah. We don’t I mean.

Payman Langroudi: We’re very technical, aren’t they?

Vinne Attariani: All those we’re all kind of, [01:05:50] you know, digitally driven.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What a beautiful practice it is.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. It’s been there since the 1840s. [01:05:55] This fact is.

Martin Attariani: The oldest practices in the country.

Vinne Attariani: In the country. We just got noted [01:06:00] for. Yeah. And so someone, one of the local historians dug up all the history of it. It’s [01:06:05] a beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: Town anyway, but it’s a.

Vinne Attariani: Beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful building in that beautiful.

Vinne Attariani: Town. We’re really proud [01:06:10] of the practice and its background and all our, you know, our team. So we [01:06:15] we we haven’t to date fallen out in all this time. Um, and [01:06:20] we come to decisions really quickly. So I think we we’ve all got the same mindset of what we, how we want the practice to [01:06:25] grow, what we want to do, where we want to see it in the future.

Payman Langroudi: And is there internal referral? [01:06:30]

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, there’s most of it’s internally. So I, so I, [01:06:35] I’m general dentist. I do my sort of favourite sort of treatments for patients [01:06:40] are doing all the cosmetic work and the Invisalign. So I do my focus on that. I don’t do [01:06:45] any implants, so I either give the implants to Martin to do or in-house. [01:06:50] So the implants, everything else I do myself. So don’t we refer [01:06:55] literally just the implants that I refer to the other partners? And then if they have Invisalign or, um, [01:07:00] some facial aesthetics as well. So then we pass it on to each other. We don’t tend to refer [01:07:05] out of house, so everything is done in-house. And then we’ve got we’re all milling and you [01:07:10] know, doing ceramics and we’ve got.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, just to explain to someone who isn’t aware of [01:07:15] the sort of the arrangements of, um, of, I mean, is it one of these expense [01:07:20] sharing partnerships?

Vinne Attariani: So ours is an expense. So, no. So it’s an expense sharing partnership.

Payman Langroudi: Just explain [01:07:25] what that means to someone who doesn’t know.

Vinne Attariani: So we’re we’re four individual businesses, right. [01:07:30] So we any profit that we make is our own. So individually [01:07:35] but we expend share the staff um, and the common costs or the building [01:07:40] costs.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s not even materials.

Vinne Attariani: So materials. So, so some of the basic materials we do [01:07:45] share. But then obviously if I’m doing I’m doing Invisalign, I that is a sort of a speciality. [01:07:50] So it’s my own expense. If the other partners are doing implants, that’s their own. [01:07:55] So yeah, pretty much everything else is shared. Uh, because we tend to do everything equally. We’re using the same [01:08:00] materials, the same composites, um, same, you know, root canal equipment. So [01:08:05] that’s all shared. And it works well. So we have a certain we have an equal number of hours [01:08:10] in the week dedicated to.

Payman Langroudi: So in a way you do have a lot of control over your own.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. [01:08:15] Oh yeah. So whatever I do my surgery is completely my own.

Payman Langroudi: Completely.

Vinne Attariani: Up to three days. You know, I do three days [01:08:20] of practice half a day and, um, Martin’s practice and then everybody works [01:08:25] what they want. The hours that were not working will have associates in or specialists in and [01:08:30] hygienists. I guess I.

Payman Langroudi: Just like added benefit of like if you’re away for a couple of weeks, [01:08:35] they can take care of your.

Vinne Attariani: Patients. That’s the joke. That’s the joke at the moment is that [01:08:40] everybody’s always on holiday, but they are.

Payman Langroudi: So every time I see you guys on social [01:08:45] media somewhere else in the world.

Vinne Attariani: But, um, we do like to travel, but do you like having [01:08:50] that? That, um, set up means that. Yeah, you can just be away and [01:08:55] somebody else will see all your emergencies. So I never worry about my emergency patients. The partners [01:09:00] will see them in the same way. If they’re off, then I will look after their patients, which is nice. [01:09:05]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to the darker part of the podcast.

Vinne Attariani: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: It’s. [01:09:10]

Martin Attariani: I didn’t know there was a dark part.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:09:15] have either of you read Black Box thinking?

Vinne Attariani: No.

Payman Langroudi: No, no. [01:09:20] Um, it’s basically it’s a book about plane crashes. And [01:09:25] it also talks about the similarity between a plane crash and [01:09:30] an incident in medical in hospitals. Yeah. And it contrasts the [01:09:35] difference between these two situations. When a plane crashes, they look at the black box, and then [01:09:40] they circulate amongst all the pilots in the world. What [01:09:45] happened in this crash so that no one else makes that mistake again. But [01:09:50] then in medical, we have and there’s no blame culture in it. In medical, [01:09:55] as soon as something goes wrong. And by the way, stuff goes wrong. You know, people die in operations. [01:10:00] All sorts of things happen, right? As soon as something goes wrong, blame comes into the equation. [01:10:05] And because blame comes into the equation, when we make a mistake, we tend to [01:10:10] hide it. We don’t tend to share it. We tend to be very ashamed of it somehow. [01:10:15] Yeah. And we don’t tend to share it. And hence what happens is I [01:10:20] don’t learn from Vinny’s mistakes. Vinny doesn’t learn from Martin’s mistakes. None of us learn from some guy in Scotland’s [01:10:25] mistake. So to buck that trend on this podcast, we like to talk about what comes [01:10:30] to mind when I say clinical error. What clinical error have you made? What have you learned from it? You [01:10:35] don’t make any mistakes. We all. [01:10:40]

Martin Attariani: Do mistakes. We all do mistakes. I couldn’t relate to the black box because when I [01:10:45] fly, it’s a little Cessna. We don’t have a black box.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you’re a pilot. Are [01:10:50] you a pilot?

Martin Attariani: Yeah, I’m a pilot. Pilot? License for about. What is it, ten years [01:10:55] now?

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I just went flying with you. Do you know Jason Jason from FMC?

[EVERYONE]: Oh, okay.

Payman Langroudi: I went [01:11:00] with.

[EVERYONE]: Him. Right? Super. Super fun. It’s good, it’s good fun. It’s good fun.

Payman Langroudi: Clinical error. [01:11:05]

Martin Attariani: I mean, we all do mistakes 100%. Obviously, I don’t think any dentist can [01:11:10] say I haven’t done any clinical error. Uh, it’s how you manage it. Uh, [01:11:15] but I do agree with you. I think the best.

Payman Langroudi: Course is on the actual.

Martin Attariani: Error. Yeah. Okay, [01:11:20] so the the best courses I’ve been to are courses where people do. [01:11:25]

Payman Langroudi: Show their failures.

Martin Attariani: Right? Exactly. Show the failures. So I agree with you that there should be [01:11:30] a bit, a lot more of that. Um, but I think it’s it’s the culture. [01:11:35] Yeah. Unfortunately that that we are exposed to. It’s [01:11:40] just very.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll tell you the kind of error I’m not looking for. I’m not looking for. Oh, once I drop something [01:11:45] in someone’s.

[EVERYONE]: Yeah.

Vinne Attariani: No, no. Look, I can give you an example where I learned from something was in my own [01:11:50] mistake, but it was a mistake. But this was this was. This was a quite a good one because it [01:11:55] was one of the dentists at the practice and and prepped the wrong tooth [01:12:00] on the wrong side, you know. So because it’s they both needed crowns. Um, [01:12:05] it was mis charted by the nurse. Maybe not double checked on the day, [01:12:10] started prepping it. Patient goes, okay, why are we doing this side? He’d already [01:12:15] done it by then, you know. And so because he shared that it [01:12:20] then makes you then think, okay, on the day of anytime I do a treatment now I’ve always asked the patient, what [01:12:25] are we doing today? As you know, sort of do you know what we’re doing today and double check it and make [01:12:30] sure I don’t make that same mistake. So that’s that’s stayed with me.

Payman Langroudi: So what happened with me? Back in the day of x [01:12:35] rays, the nurse marked the OPG left and right incorrectly. The patient didn’t [01:12:40] have any fillings in their mouth at all. I was doing the first ever filling on this patient. Seeing [01:12:45] this big hole in.

Vinne Attariani: That reminded me of something else, a mistake I made.

Payman Langroudi: I’m [01:12:50] drilling low right? Seven going. It’s strange. I’m drilling. Just. I can’t believe it. Because the [01:12:55] hole should be here.

[EVERYONE]: There’s nothing here. Keep going.

Payman Langroudi: Suddenly realise what’s going on.

Vinne Attariani: There’s [01:13:00] a mistake I made, actually. Well, I picked up a hand piece and this is in my [01:13:05] hair. Yeah, I picked up the hand. No, actually, it was when I became an associate. First year of associateship. [01:13:10] I picked it up, just started drilling. It’s all been set out for me, right? Yeah. And what happens? The. The [01:13:15] bird flies out.

Payman Langroudi: Flies out.

Vinne Attariani: The patient swallows it. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: This falls every [01:13:20] single time you pick up a hand.

Vinne Attariani: Single time I every single time I pick up any hand [01:13:25] piece I check and do not. I don’t just check once I check.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah yeah yeah.

Vinne Attariani: Even even three and [01:13:30] one tips I three and one tip sometimes worry me I check them every flies out. It does [01:13:35] not ever get picked up now and just used. No way.

Payman Langroudi: Okay so while you think about this? [01:13:40] I like those two. I do like those two because they’re two learning points, right? They’re too important. But while. While [01:13:45] Martin tells me his one. I want you to think about your most difficult patient.

Vinne Attariani: Oh. [01:13:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah? The one you know, the one that you know. When you see them in the diary, you’re like, God, [01:13:55] I don’t want to treat this patient.

Vinne Attariani: I wasn’t difficult to treat because of [01:14:00] their attitude.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, like a management error. Like a management situation. [01:14:05] Martin, what comes to mind when I say clinical error to you?

Martin Attariani: Uh. I [01:14:10] mean, apart from what Vinny said, I touch wood. [01:14:15] I haven’t done any major errors as such. Uh, apart from. Yes, [01:14:20] the burrs coming loose or I have enjoyed the wrong tooth. Not [01:14:25] just yet. Uh, I probably did on Monday night because we’re talking about it. Uh, [01:14:30] but it’s been cases where I’m probably misjudged. Um, I [01:14:35] remember this NHS patient who came to me for [01:14:40] a crown, for example. And um, and um, she had a root [01:14:45] canal done somewhere else and she came to me and um, the [01:14:50] NHS dentist had said to her that, um, you can’t [01:14:55] have a crown on this. Uh, it’s not enough tooth left. And, uh, um, [01:15:00] she came to me and I said, no, no, I can [01:15:05] make a crown work on this for you. Uh, and I did the crown, and then she came [01:15:10] back. Probably eight months later. The tooth was completely gone down to gum. [01:15:15] So the whole core just just broke off, and then that escalated to patient [01:15:20] complaining. So that’s probably the one that sticks out.

Payman Langroudi: But then what.

Martin Attariani: Happened that just. [01:15:25] Well, um, it ended up with me just returning her [01:15:30] money back for that crown, and, um, I offered implants, so I said, [01:15:35] if you’re happy, come back for free. Not for free. So I return her money. I explained [01:15:40] the end of the day. Uh, it is a tooth with an existing root canal. [01:15:45] So it can happen. Uh, but I can’t, you know, uh, there’s no.

Payman Langroudi: How did [01:15:50] she take it? Was she happy with it?

Martin Attariani: She was. Well, she was happy by the time I said, what? Have your money back?

Payman Langroudi: Basically, [01:15:55] yes. And that was it again. That’s such a happy ending. I’m looking for an unhappy ending.

Martin Attariani: Yeah. Touchwood, [01:16:00] Touchwood. I haven’t had any unhappy ending.

Payman Langroudi: This many years in [01:16:05] practice. There must have been some unhappy endings, I mean.

Vinne Attariani: Well, I’m trying. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: If you want to keep going until.

Martin Attariani: You. [01:16:10] If you’re looking for a GDC case, we.

[EVERYONE]: Don’t have a.

Payman Langroudi: Gdc [01:16:15] case. I’ve had a happy ending.

Vinne Attariani: I had a fitness to practise inquiry.

Payman Langroudi: Are you happy to [01:16:20] talk about it?

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, I think so. Well, we can see. Right. Um, so this was back in [01:16:25] when I worked at Vandals. Yeah. And it was. I took [01:16:30] a tooth out on a patient, a Periodontally involved [01:16:35] tooth straightforward extraction. Heavy smoker. Right. And gave [01:16:40] him the usual instructions don’t smoke, you know, no rinsing, blah blah blah blah blah. [01:16:45] And then a few months later, I got a fitness [01:16:50] to practice letter from the GDC saying that no, no complaint from the patient, [01:16:55] no indication of anything, you know, upsetting or untoward [01:17:00] and saying that, um, you because I did not give him post-operative [01:17:05] instructions and he got an infected socket so that that was and [01:17:10] you know what I looked at, I was absolutely shocked. I was like, fitness to [01:17:15] practice. Okay. Wasn’t even like, this is being investigated. It was a full on this is going to, [01:17:20] you know, be quite dramatic.

Payman Langroudi: When you see those words.

Vinne Attariani: It was it was it was a week [01:17:25] before my birthday. It was a week before my birthday. And I thought it was the worst time. Like I was completely [01:17:30] shocked. And, um, I mean it all. It was absolutely fine because in the end, [01:17:35] you know, I went to my indemnity print out the patient notes, and there was a, you know, [01:17:40] obviously I had in the records I’d given him the information. We print out a handout [01:17:45] that explains not to smoke. It was all in the record. So it was all, you know, written off and [01:17:50] and it was fine. But just that process of being given a document like that, [01:17:55] you know, is you all of a sudden you see your career and your life just drain away. [01:18:00] You just think what is going to happen here because that is the biggest nightmare. You know, it’s only because my [01:18:05] record keeping obviously was all there that I was fine. But I can’t believe that it just the patient was able [01:18:10] to just go straight to the GDC without being kind of told that, look, you should go to the practice, [01:18:15] go see the resolution. And he’s a smoker. He probably he I think he was someone who smoked, like, you [01:18:20] know, 10 or 15 a day who was not going to be able to comply to instructions that are given to them [01:18:25] after after an extraction. And it was nothing worthy of taking, you know, [01:18:30] to that that degree of that far. But it was it was really worrying [01:18:35] and upsetting. Yeah. The stress that it caused.

[EVERYONE]: You know.

Martin Attariani: Through is unbelievable.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:18:40] about you? What would you say is your hardest patient or one that comes to mind?

Martin Attariani: Yeah, it [01:18:45] was one patient. Uh, cosmetic case crown trying [01:18:50] to think this is probably 7 or 8 years ago. Top left one. [01:18:55] And I just could not satisfy this lady.

Payman Langroudi: Single crown. [01:19:00]

Martin Attariani: Single tooth, single crown. Yeah. Back and forth. Maybe 20 or 30 times. [01:19:05] Oh, but, you know, it just turned into nightmare to the point [01:19:10] that I would I would be happy to just give him money and say, please just go somewhere else. But [01:19:15] I kept trying to please her and nothing was good for her. And [01:19:20] today she she was happy enough not to come back anymore. Was the happiest day. It [01:19:25] was like, oh my God. Thank God for that. So we all get those type of patients who [01:19:30] are so fixed on just one tooth. I remember thinking, [01:19:35] how can you be so fixated on one tooth? I [01:19:40] mean, I’m a dentist, you know? For me, details are important. But, you know, you’re whole. [01:19:45] You’re obsessed with this tooth. Yeah. There’s so much more to life than what?

Payman Langroudi: What [01:19:50] you think it needs to be talked about. I mean, you’re both involved in cosmetic. Cosmetic dentistry. Cosmetic [01:19:55] dentistry has a massive psychological element.

Martin Attariani: That’s exactly what it was with this lady.

Vinne Attariani: It was managing [01:20:00] the expectations. Which is. Which is a big thing. I think one one thing that I’ve learned, um, [01:20:05] with experience, and I suppose sometimes you do get things wrong on occasion, [01:20:10] which you learn from, um, is when to say, no, I’m not going to do it. I refuse patients. [01:20:15]

Payman Langroudi: And the more and the more experienced you are, the more you’re sort of spidey sense. Yeah.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, I’m I’m there. [01:20:20] I’m I’m. I am judging that patient by their words, their actions. [01:20:25]

Payman Langroudi: Are there things that you’re saying? Because one thing I learned, for instance, one thing I learned when I was a dentist, I’d done [01:20:30] some veneers. The patient was super happy. Nurse was over the moon. That looks [01:20:35] amazing. Everyone was happy. Went away. Came back? Don’t like them anymore? Why? Someone [01:20:40] family member doesn’t like them? Yeah. Then after that, that situation [01:20:45] always at fit. I would say someone in your family is not going to [01:20:50] like them and prepare them for that. But don’t worry, they’re not used to you like this. And and you know [01:20:55] that that came into my routine.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So do you with cosmetics, with Invisalign. I mean, people become. [01:21:00] We did it ourselves with our own kids. Actually, people become incredibly picky.

[EVERYONE]: Yes. At the [01:21:05] end of all.

Vinne Attariani: Amazing. I was talking about this with my nurse yesterday because it was this young girl and [01:21:10] completely transformed her smile. And I was showing her before and afters and and I was saying to my nurse said, [01:21:15] the girl’s still not happy, the patient’s still not happy. There’s the tiniest.

[EVERYONE]: Tiniest.

Vinne Attariani: Tiniest [01:21:20] little bit with this lateral, the lateral that was completely behind the bite 18 months ago, [01:21:25] it didn’t even exist.

Martin Attariani: Transformation.

Vinne Attariani: But look at this. Right. And I’ve got to the point. [01:21:30] Are you something you said to me once? Right. I actually use this one on patients. [01:21:35] I say to them, look, God couldn’t get your teeth perfect. Yeah, I’m [01:21:40] not going to be able to get them. I’m not God. I actually, I have used that line. I have used that. But [01:21:45] but I say that I say to patients when I do Invisalign, I said, look, we’re going to get your teeth 90% there. [01:21:50] I said, they’re not going to be 100% perfect. And I tell them that from day one. [01:21:55] You know, it’s very.

Martin Attariani: Important to manage patient expectations. And that’s where you learn [01:22:00] as, as a or you have to learn as a, as a cosmetic.

Vinne Attariani: I never promise.

Martin Attariani: You have to [01:22:05] under promise and over deliver. I think that’s, that’s. [01:22:10]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I was speaking to someone whose whole life is, is Smile Designs. [01:22:15] And she said to me that she tells patients that if we’re lucky [01:22:20] the second time, we’re going to get it right. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. As a, as a general [01:22:25] says that to all the smart design patients so that if it’s right, first [01:22:30] time people are over the moon, you know, so, so that if it gets to the second time [01:22:35] told you that if we’re lucky. So it can go to a third time if you want without anyone [01:22:40] questioning it. And it’s just a simple thing to say. Right. That kind of gives you some sort of latitude [01:22:45] for that issue that might suddenly come up. Because one [01:22:50] awful thing, I mean, the two awful things about being a dentist. I think, number one, whatever [01:22:55] amount of consent you go through, the patient can afterwards say, I didn’t understand.

Vinne Attariani: I have the perfect [01:23:00] case. It is so upsetting.

Payman Langroudi: That’s one. And the other one is whatever you do, the patient [01:23:05] don’t like them. There’s no way out of those two situations in dentistry. [01:23:10]

Vinne Attariani: Consent forms don’t. They don’t help you. They don’t protect you. At the end, if the.

Payman Langroudi: Patients didn’t understand.

Vinne Attariani: There’s.

Payman Langroudi: Nothing.

Vinne Attariani: You can say [01:23:15] about what patients said to me. Owes me a large amount of money. Yeah. Was very happy when the [01:23:20] treatment was finished. Yeah. Very happy a week later, two weeks later, a month later, and then just [01:23:25] came back all of a sudden and says that, oh, I’m not happy, and then gave his reasons. Right. And, [01:23:30] um, and there was an issue about the casting, and he threw out at the end that I didn’t [01:23:35] understand what I was signing. And this is a very educated person, okay, who [01:23:40] works in a well-known company, is head of a massive, um, fitness [01:23:45] department. And it was extremely upsetting because he [01:23:50] basically walking away from a large bill, saying that I didn’t understand.

Payman Langroudi: How large was the.

Vinne Attariani: Bill ten [01:23:55] K plus? Well, for me.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a lot of money.

Vinne Attariani: Which is a lot of money.

Payman Langroudi: If.

Vinne Attariani: It was a couple [01:24:00] hundred pounds, but he hasn’t paid to this date. And I said, tell you what, don’t [01:24:05] pay. Let’s make you happy. Let’s correct these little issues that you’re not happy with. [01:24:10] Yeah. Um, didn’t come back for that correction appointment and just hasn’t paid, but is [01:24:15] the teeth are perfect beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: You know, now you’re you’re implying there that he was trying [01:24:20] it on to save the ten grand. Yeah, but yeah, you have to have you have to have an [01:24:25] element of your of your management that says, I will allow the odd guy to try it [01:24:30] on so that the guy who isn’t trying it on doesn’t make me. I don’t think [01:24:35] he, like, feels like he’s trying it on. Yeah, we have it all the time. Enlightened B1 guarantee. [01:24:40] Yeah. Yeah. You can take two pictures before send them. Didn’t change colour. Yeah. I’m [01:24:45] sure many people do it. I’m sure of it.

Vinne Attariani: Oh, okay.

Payman Langroudi: I know a few people who have done it. I’ve had people [01:24:50] tell me they’ve done it. Yeah, but to get that through to our team. Yeah. [01:24:55] That treat everyone as if they’re not lying. Even if you think they are. So that when [01:25:00] the odd guy or the many, whatever, whoever who’s a really good, honest [01:25:05] customer of ours says it didn’t work. That guy is treated not like a liar, not like [01:25:10] a criminal. We’re not going to prove it to me that there’s no way of proving it anyway, right?

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, it’s [01:25:15] difficult.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s important. It’s an important thing to note. Now, maybe you knew this guy in the sixth sense. And you, you [01:25:20] know, you know, he’s trying it on.

Vinne Attariani: Oh, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: But but but.

Vinne Attariani: But.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I find that one [01:25:25] of the biggest challenges I have with the team. You know, our customer care team is [01:25:30] I’m telling them, even if you think someone’s pulling it off, pulling the wool over your eyes, let [01:25:35] that one go. Let that one go so that our great customers never feel that way. [01:25:40]

Vinne Attariani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And it’s almost like cost of business, you know?

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. And you learn from that. I mean, normally [01:25:45] we have treatments paid in full beforehand, you know, and then this was a bit of a special [01:25:50] patient. And I thought, you know what? We’ll leave it till the end. And I think the ones, the ones that the one time [01:25:55] that you try.

Payman Langroudi: It always.

Vinne Attariani: Happens. Yeah.

Martin Attariani: That always going to be.

Vinne Attariani: It’s always. It’s always influencer [01:26:00] Instagrammer type ones. They’re the ones I get the most trouble with. Yeah. They’re the ones [01:26:05] that. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about as business owners? I mean, sometimes a [01:26:10] bit lonely being a business owner, right? Um, you’re a single handed business owner. I [01:26:15] mean, I’ve got partners and I often think about it. And of course, with partners you have to share the profits. [01:26:20] That’s an important point. Yeah. But when things are going wrong, [01:26:25] when, when when someone leaves unexpectedly for the sake of the argument, in [01:26:30] our world, things that go wrong. Sometimes the cardboard is the wrong shape or whatever. When things [01:26:35] are going wrong, partners are so important. And I often think about it if I was on my own [01:26:40] in this situation, sometimes it’s like management versus staff kind of, you [01:26:45] know, intrigue, you know, what’s your darkest day in that sense? Like what [01:26:50] comes to mind, like from the business aspect of owning a practice for 17 years? [01:26:55] Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What challenges you? I mean, you just did your place up. I bet that was a challenge.

Martin Attariani: Um, [01:27:00] so I bought the business [01:27:05] from my best friend who actually said the practice up.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [01:27:10]

Martin Attariani: Uh, from scratch in 2001 and 2008. He said, I want to sell [01:27:15] and move back to Sweden, and it was an easy choice to just buy [01:27:20] it off him because I knew it was well set up practice. He was [01:27:25] educated or he had his degree from Sweden, so we had same type [01:27:30] of, uh, approach to dentistry as a whole. Um, but the one [01:27:35] thing that’s been challenging for me since I’ve had my wife there, obviously it’s [01:27:40] been a lot easier, but the times that I was there just by myself, [01:27:45] only that was, has been quite challenging to be by yourself and [01:27:50] having to do everything. Even if you got your practice manager, it still can [01:27:55] be quite lonely. Many times as a dentist, it’s lonely. The times you’re not [01:28:00] there, you’re still on your phone trying to manage the business.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Um, [01:28:05] and, um.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve never had associates?

Martin Attariani: I’ve never had associates on purpose. So on purpose, [01:28:10] I think. I think the best setup is in dentistry is the setup I have, [01:28:15] uh, business wise. Not that I’m a great businessman, but [01:28:20] I think, um, and I have, you know, discussed that with many other dentists [01:28:25] who does have different size of businesses and practices. I [01:28:30] think if you got one dentist, one hygienist and one [01:28:35] therapist therapist, which is what I have now, you’ve probably got the best, um, setup [01:28:40] for a dental practice at the most profitable, um, business. [01:28:45] What, and you start to take on associates. It’s just obviously [01:28:50] it’s, in a way your profits. Uh, and it just adds a lot of headache [01:28:55] to your business as well. Yeah. And I think, uh, again, not that I’m an expert, [01:29:00] but I think you need to go beyond maybe 4 or 5 associates to [01:29:05] start to, you know, make it feel that it’s it’s Is worthwhile. [01:29:10] Once you’ve been there in one practice for 17 years, uh, [01:29:15] you don’t need to do any marketing. And I haven’t.

Payman Langroudi: The [01:29:20] word of.

Martin Attariani: Mouth.

Payman Langroudi: I haven’t done a certain.

Martin Attariani: After that time, you just get patients coming through [01:29:25] the door. So it’s either you turn them away or you just take [01:29:30] them on. And I, I don’t like turning people away. I’ve never said I’m not [01:29:35] taking any patients on. I work harder, but I don’t. I think that’s the worst [01:29:40] thing you can do as a business to send people away. Yeah. So I take them [01:29:45] on and then I just explain. Look, it’s a long waiting list, if you don’t mind waiting. Uh, [01:29:50] I can see you, you know, um, as soon as possible. And [01:29:55] people tend to stay on because they’ve come through word of mouth. They [01:30:00] want to be seen by by us. And it works.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:30:05] Beautiful practice to. I’ve been to both of your practices, but I haven’t been to yours since the the refurbishment. [01:30:10] Since even then, when I went, it was a nice place. Very [01:30:15] old building listed.

Martin Attariani: Very, very character to it.

Payman Langroudi: Is it.

Martin Attariani: Listed? It is. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, that [01:30:20] must be a nightmare doing that up, right?

Martin Attariani: It was, it was, it was.

Payman Langroudi: It was extraordinary what you’ve [01:30:25] done with it. I saw the pictures. Um, it’s like ultra modern and an ultra old [01:30:30] building. Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Yeah, yeah. It’s such a nice contrast. Yeah, but I had we [01:30:35] had amazing feedback from the patients having we had extreme good feedback [01:30:40] and, uh, I think, uh, the setup is we’re very [01:30:45] happy with the setup we have now.

Vinne Attariani: It’s good. It works. Well, um, and it’s nice [01:30:50] patients. I mean, people want to come to modern practices now. They want to see that your your [01:30:55] practice is is pretty, it’s clean. It’s got all the they’re expecting to see high tech [01:31:00] gadgets now people people come in asking for oh I want a digital scan. I don’t want an [01:31:05] impression. We get patients coming up. They come because they just want cerec. I only want cerec. You [01:31:10] do cerec so they know about it.

Martin Attariani: So many people.

Vinne Attariani: Come.

Martin Attariani: And ask.

Vinne Attariani: You get [01:31:15] so many that just want enlightened. You know, they want to come here. They look it up [01:31:20] on the internet also.

Payman Langroudi: The great thing is, let’s say the patient has never, ever seen a scanner before. Yeah, they’re the [01:31:25] best, right?

Vinne Attariani: It blows their.

Payman Langroudi: Minds. Totally blown away by it.

Martin Attariani: Like every single new [01:31:30] patient.

Vinne Attariani: Now there’s no way someone took my scanner away. I think I would just stop dentistry.

Martin Attariani: Every [01:31:35] single new patient gets an arterial scan, and we show them on [01:31:40] the screen explaining everything. And once you do that, there [01:31:45] are stuck with you. They want to be with you. Honestly, you don’t [01:31:50] need to sell yourself. Just. They get so impressed. [01:31:55]

Payman Langroudi: I’m surprised you went for itero. Not three shape someone like you.

Martin Attariani: So we got. We got three [01:32:00] scanners. We got. We got three scanners. Between the two of us. I think we got [01:32:05] all the brands, essentially.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, I got 3 in 1, my one surgery. So [01:32:10] I got the blue, the cerec itero and the three trials.

Martin Attariani: Wow. [01:32:15]

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, I use all three.

Payman Langroudi: For different situations.

Vinne Attariani: Literally all day. We [01:32:20] just use it for different.

Martin Attariani: Uh, you know, treatments that we do, basically.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, forgive me for [01:32:25] not knowing, but the both Itero and trios have that [01:32:30] feature where you can see the tooth wear. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That must be useful.

Vinne Attariani: It’s amazing. [01:32:35]

Martin Attariani: It’s really good.

Vinne Attariani: It is amazing.

Payman Langroudi: What are the what are the little fancy things does it do that I’m not aware of? [01:32:40]

Vinne Attariani: Well, the.

Payman Langroudi: Things like that, that.

Vinne Attariani: It is like, um, simulations for Invisalign. [01:32:45] So you can just press a button, right? But the three shape does it as well. Oh, really? Yeah. Three shape does it [01:32:50] as well. And, um, you can do a small design on on the [01:32:55] copy.

Martin Attariani: I do a lot of copy teeth carries. Let’s put.

Vinne Attariani: It this.

Payman Langroudi: Way. Copy the [01:33:00] shape of copy.

Martin Attariani: So I had a patient just two days ago and broken, uh, [01:33:05] tooth. Uh, no. Sorry. No, uh, secondary caries on on a tooth. [01:33:10] Yeah. Uh, which, uh, is is retention, which is retention for his his [01:33:15] cobalt newly made cobalt chrome denture. Yeah. That, uh, he had done, uh, before [01:33:20] he came to me. So, um, he came and I said, well, we have to [01:33:25] replace you need a crown on this tooth. And, uh, obviously [01:33:30] having a cobalt chrome straight away, he was like, well, I just had my, um, denture [01:33:35] denture made. I said, don’t worry, I’m just going to copy your tooth exactly how it [01:33:40] is. And, you know, that’s a technology that you can’t see any other way. So [01:33:45] I did that in front of. I’ve done that over the years, many times.

Payman Langroudi: I did it [01:33:50] for him as well.

Martin Attariani: So I scanned the.

Vinne Attariani: Tooth copy.

Martin Attariani: Before I prepped.

Vinne Attariani: It. [01:33:55]

Martin Attariani: And I just copied that into the new crown. And, you know, the [01:34:00] the, um, cobalt chrome went on.

Payman Langroudi: There a few times where I think, God, I wish I could go back and be [01:34:05] a dentist. You got me there. You got me there for a second there. That’s interesting. [01:34:10]

Martin Attariani: It’s it’s priceless, you know? Yeah. It’s priceless because it was, like, perfect [01:34:15] fits straight away.

Payman Langroudi: I didn’t hear your practice management nightmare moment. [01:34:20] What was that?

Martin Attariani: Um.

Vinne Attariani: What’s that?

Martin Attariani: Practice [01:34:25] management nightmare.

Vinne Attariani: What is what?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, like a business nightmare moment. [01:34:30] It could have been, I don’t know, a leaky roof suddenly became a situation someone left [01:34:35] unexpectedly. Like, not a clinical error. A business owner’s [01:34:40] error.

Vinne Attariani: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It comes to mind.

Vinne Attariani: Stuff.

Martin Attariani: That stuff leaving many times, [01:34:45] right?

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. We’ve had a practice manager leave to another practice and steal all our [01:34:50] data and all our data files and policies, patients notes, no procedures. [01:34:55] Oh, so the printing off everything stuff? Yeah. Just printed [01:35:00] everything off and took it to the new practice with her.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Vinne Attariani: Practice manager.

Payman Langroudi: Practice manager is one [01:35:05] of those jobs, right? I had the CEO of Bupa sitting here, and he said he’s a veteran [01:35:10] of insurance, uh, company. You know, like insurance products. And he said [01:35:15] practice manager is one of the hardest jobs he’s ever seen. Yeah. Considering what [01:35:20] different things they have to take care of. Right. And if a practice manager suddenly disappears. [01:35:25] Yeah, it’s like the heart of the business suddenly disappearing, right?

Vinne Attariani: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: I can think [01:35:30] of, um, actually, one of the hardest things, actually, when I think about [01:35:35] it now. Yeah. It was when CQC was introduced. Um. Oh, God. [01:35:40] The evenings and weekends that I. We spend [01:35:45] time.

Vinne Attariani: On.

Martin Attariani: Inspection. No, just just when it kicked in. Do you remember you [01:35:50] had to add all.

Payman Langroudi: The for all the compliance companies existed? Yeah. You couldn’t just push it, like, [01:35:55] buy it in?

Vinne Attariani: No.

Martin Attariani: Yeah, exactly. All of a sudden you had to have all sorts [01:36:00] of policies and procedures in place and distress and [01:36:05] the unknown. We didn’t even know what was required and nowhere to even [01:36:10] get help from because nobody knew nobody. Yeah, that was very [01:36:15] stressful. Stressful times, honestly.

Payman Langroudi: And Covid.

Vinne Attariani: Oh, Covid. [01:36:20]

Martin Attariani: Was.

Payman Langroudi: As a private dentist, you got nothing, right?

Vinne Attariani: Nothing? Nothing. No. [01:36:25] Not nothing. Not even like any business rate relief. Nothing. Our staff were all [01:36:30] furloughed.

Payman Langroudi: You did. You got that?

Vinne Attariani: What? We didn’t get anything. The staff got paid. Yeah. [01:36:35] Yeah, we.

Payman Langroudi: So you were just like us in that situation?

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. We just had.

Payman Langroudi: Zero income.

Vinne Attariani: Zero income. And it got to the [01:36:40] point that if it went on for another month, it would have had to actually personally start paying into [01:36:45] the business.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Because the the first time your staff were earning more than you.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, exactly. [01:36:50] Our staff were earning more than me. That was strange. But do you know what? Because we have we have a practice Plan. [01:36:55] Right. The that that that ticked along that that.

Payman Langroudi: Plan.

Martin Attariani: As well. [01:37:00] Yes. Yes.

Vinne Attariani: That was a that was a saviour. If we didn’t have that we would have been in a lot [01:37:05] of trouble.

Payman Langroudi: My my wife’s an associate. Right. And you know, got nothing private. [01:37:10] Associate. Got nothing.

Vinne Attariani: Private. There is a lot about that. Wasn’t that private? Private associates. [01:37:15]

Payman Langroudi: And the. You know, I was there. We have a company. But I was [01:37:20] thinking, you know, if she was a single mom. Yeah, yeah. And for the. I think it was three months. Four months? [01:37:25] Yeah. Suddenly for four months, income gets taken out. Yeah. I think [01:37:30] I think if you earn over a certain amount, you got nothing. Yeah. So I guess that’s what they were thinking.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. [01:37:35] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, there’d be some suffering there, you know, that that could cause some suffering. There’s [01:37:40] some people just got forgotten, you know, self-employed people. Yeah. Self-employed people just got forgotten.

Vinne Attariani: Which is quite upsetting [01:37:45] because I was thinking, you know, we we take we employ 34 staff [01:37:50] members. Okay. Is a big team to furlough everyone else, to be [01:37:55] furloughed and to make an income, and then the business owner not to be given any [01:38:00] support. What are they going to come back to if that business owner had to close their business now because [01:38:05] during Covid they couldn’t, you know, couldn’t make things work. Where are those 34 [01:38:10] people going to go? What job are they going to go back to afterwards? And it was it was really frustrating.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t think [01:38:15] they managed it that badly though, because if you talk to people abroad, many countries government did nothing. [01:38:20] Zero.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. Zero.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Vinne Attariani: As us as like self-employed and business owners. We [01:38:25] didn’t get anything right?

Payman Langroudi: No. So, I mean, not even furlough?

Vinne Attariani: No. Nothing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So [01:38:30] before the I mean, look, we learned all these new words, right? But before the word furlough came along. Yeah, we [01:38:35] sat down with our team and said, look, we’ve got two choices. We can either halve everyone’s salary or [01:38:40] we can lose half of you. Yeah. There was the only thing we could do. Furlough hadn’t been announced [01:38:45] yet. Right. Yeah. But it was clear everything was going to close. Yeah. And and and they [01:38:50] to their credit, they said, all right, we’ll all take half salary, you know. And then they announced furlough. [01:38:55] And, you know, that was great. But, you know, imagine imagine if there was no furlough. Yeah. [01:39:00] By the way, I mean, we’re paying for it now, right? Yeah, yeah.

Vinne Attariani: But again, it’s a business owners who [01:39:05] are paying for it. Again it comes back again. It comes out from um.

Payman Langroudi: But you said Martin, [01:39:10] you said that, you know, having done a lot of different jobs, you [01:39:15] see dentistry as a very good job compared to most of the other stuff [01:39:20] you’ve done. And you’re saying it more than the [01:39:25] love of teeth that you have. In particular, you’re saying that for in general you see it [01:39:30] as a good job. Yeah. At the same time, we’ve got this other pod. It’s called the Mind Movers. It’s about [01:39:35] mental health. We’re talking with Rona. We’re trying to get to. [01:39:40] Why? Why do dentists commit suicide? Why do dentists take their [01:39:45] own lives more than many other professional profession? Yeah. Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Look, [01:39:50] the reality is.

Payman Langroudi: There’s there’s there’s there’s a I [01:39:55] mean, we looked into it a lot. We’ve asked a lot of people, we’ve read a book, but it’s multifactorial. Yeah, [01:40:00] but what do you what do you think is the reason if it’s this brilliant job?

Martin Attariani: It [01:40:05] is a very [01:40:10] stressful job as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Why? I is because you [01:40:15] have to be so many different personalities [01:40:20] in one to deliver this job.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Business owner, [01:40:25] nurse, engineer, marketing guy. Yeah. Is this what you mean? [01:40:30]

Martin Attariani: Exactly. Yeah. The people.

Payman Langroudi: Dude.

Martin Attariani: People person. And you got so many [01:40:35] different people to to to satisfy. Yeah. [01:40:40] It’s just not about your patience, right?

Payman Langroudi: Your team.

Martin Attariani: Like you said, it’s your team, your [01:40:45] staff, your, uh, my CQC, GDC [01:40:50] you got so many eyes on.

Payman Langroudi: I could have a pizza.

Martin Attariani: Shop.

Payman Langroudi: Right? I’ve [01:40:55] got customers, I’ve got staff, I’ve got regulations like, you know, [01:41:00] hygiene regulations. Yeah, but pizza owner isn’t killing himself as much as a dentist. [01:41:05]

Martin Attariani: But you’re dealing with a different type of people, I think.

Payman Langroudi: As [01:41:10] in what patients.

Martin Attariani: Know, the the person as, as a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:41:15] see a perfectionist.

Martin Attariani: Yeah. It’s it’s a person who’s been through a lot to get where he [01:41:20] is. And he’s got a lot to lose if he loses.

Payman Langroudi: Brain surgeon.

Martin Attariani: His his [01:41:25] same I would say he.

Payman Langroudi: Doesn’t. Brain surgeons don’t kill themselves as much as um, Vinnie. [01:41:30]

Vinne Attariani: Does. I think [01:41:35] we’re really highly driven. We’re intelligent breed. Right. We are [01:41:40] very empathetic. We are very critical [01:41:45] of ourselves, I think, like, I’m probably describing myself. You know, I think we are as in nature. [01:41:50] We are very highly driven. We want to we want to perform. We want to do well. I [01:41:55] think we are taking a lot of risks. We’re dealing with people, their health, [01:42:00] their personalities. Anything can go wrong. I think we are, um, [01:42:05] regulated heavily, which makes you gives you the fear [01:42:10] of failing, fear of failure, fear of making the slightest mistake. [01:42:15] I don’t think any. I feel that no other profession is as heavily regulated or critically, [01:42:20] critically, kind of, you know, criticised or.

Payman Langroudi: Or.

Vinne Attariani: Or the newspapers. [01:42:25]

Payman Langroudi: Even in 1932, in Kansas.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Dentists were taking [01:42:30] their lives in.

Martin Attariani: This is quite global. You’re right. What you’re saying is global.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:42:35] not just before there was so much regulation.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There’s something about the job. Yeah. Now. [01:42:40] Yeah. My. I told this to my cousin’s, uh, The eye surgeon, [01:42:45] and he sits in a dark room and and and he says when he treats [01:42:50] GA patients, at the end of the day, he’s relaxed. When he treats [01:42:55] LA patients, at the end of the day, he’s broken.

Martin Attariani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And and it makes some [01:43:00] sense, right? I mean, when the patients live and scared. Yeah. And in his [01:43:05] case, they’re scared, right? Sticking needles into their eye. And in our case, they’re scared. Yeah. Yeah. [01:43:10] And every move might make a thing. And you’re constantly on show. Constantly. You know, it’s [01:43:15] not like a, I don’t know, a lawyer or something. And see a customer. Then go and [01:43:20] think about it. Read a book, you know, look something up or whatever. We’re in and out, in [01:43:25] and out. Whether it’s 40 a day or three a day, it’s still you’re fully busy [01:43:30] in and out and you’re on show all day. Then in a room with [01:43:35] one person, your nurse, who maybe you don’t get on with. [01:43:40] Yeah. There’s plenty of that going on? Yeah. And then everything [01:43:45] you do kind of fails. Kind of not yours. Of course. [01:43:50]

Martin Attariani: I know, but that’s that’s exactly what I meant.

Payman Langroudi: This combination is.

Martin Attariani: Very stressful. [01:43:55]

Payman Langroudi: Because.

Martin Attariani: There’s so much happening. Yeah, just just imagine we [01:44:00] are working in a small field all the time. We’re doing microsurgery [01:44:05] every single day. And then you’ve got all this around as well. Like you said, [01:44:10] dealing with the patient with with the nurse that you might not like at the business [01:44:15] side of it, there is actually so much happening. So it only takes just one last [01:44:20] drop to make everything overflow.

Vinne Attariani: Is your capacity, isn’t [01:44:25] it?

Martin Attariani: And then if.

Vinne Attariani: Your.

Martin Attariani: Capacity.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, you you’re absorbing lots.

Payman Langroudi: Of [01:44:30] little micro.

Vinne Attariani: Problems. You’re doing the physical stuff. Yeah. You’re doing the.

Martin Attariani: Mentally.

Vinne Attariani: Dental. [01:44:35] Yeah. Mentally you’re there. You’ve got the medical care of the patient. You’re emotionally attached [01:44:40] to this patient. Right. The one you like now? I’ve been there 13 years. You’ve been [01:44:45] there 17 years. Patients tell you everything about them. You know, all the hardships, hardships they’ve [01:44:50] gone through. You know their good times, bad times. You feel their stress or anxieties. [01:44:55] You feel their happiness or so.

Martin Attariani: Much.

Vinne Attariani: Input. You are absorbing that [01:45:00] all day long. I think sometimes, like I was saying earlier about like Covid after Covid, [01:45:05] um, I found Covid really difficult. You know, I stopped watching the news. I have not watched [01:45:10] the news since Covid. I used to read the news every single day. I [01:45:15] haven’t got the capacity to absorb negative.

Martin Attariani: More negative.

Vinne Attariani: Negativity. [01:45:20] Yeah, because it made me really depressed. So I just stopped watching it. You know, I stopped asking [01:45:25] patients. Now, um, when I go collect them from the waiting room, I don’t ask them how they are. I never [01:45:30] ask, how are you? Because I know if they. If I say, how are you? They’re going they’re not [01:45:35] going to tell me good things. They’re going to Unload it because it is a bit of [01:45:40] a psychological visit for them. There is psychology with dentistry. I was saying the dentistry, the [01:45:45] actual doing, the filling all the mechanics is easy. Okay. It’s the patient. [01:45:50] It’s it’s it’s their emotions that day. Is is your nurse feeling happy? [01:45:55] It’s you know, it’s it’s all that it’s.

Martin Attariani: So.

Vinne Attariani: Much about the psychology of managing that person. That [01:46:00] person like I’ll see ten, 20 patients a day, but on [01:46:05] that one visit for that patient that day. Right. I’ve got to make sure that visit is comfortable. I’ve got [01:46:10] to make sure it’s pain free. I’ve got to make sure they like me. I make sure they don’t feel I’m stressed for any [01:46:15] reason, that they go out with a magical, great experience. You know, they’re comfortable. They’re going to come back and [01:46:20] see me. There’s so much going through your head. You don’t actually realise that your brain is just constantly [01:46:25] worrying, right? And we just adapted to that. You either can adapt and you’re okay [01:46:30] with it and you manage. You know, again, I think like having busy backgrounds, busy [01:46:35] lifestyles, managing kids, doing all that. Some some people are really good at being able [01:46:40] to control that kind of, you know, capacity of input. Other [01:46:45] people can’t, and I don’t think you realise it until you actually go through it, because they don’t [01:46:50] teach you that in dental school. You’re not told that, you know, you’re going to have difficult patients, you’re going to have patients who, [01:46:55] you know, I’ve got sexist patients, I’ve got patients who are, you know, have [01:47:00] an issue with me being a female dentist. Okay. That you you could you I’ve got [01:47:05] patients who. Yeah. I’ve got I’ve had racial slurs before, you know, in [01:47:10] my surgery. I’ve got all sorts of things that you just don’t learn that you [01:47:15] are going to you are, are almost acting, putting on a [01:47:20] persona for every patient. And then that is difficult to do.

Payman Langroudi: It wears you down in the long [01:47:25] run.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. It does, it does, it does. Because again, I’ve learned now the time [01:47:30] that I am not. It’s something that’s a bit of a skill set, I think I try not [01:47:35] to change myself. I’ve tried to change my patients. Into what? Into [01:47:40] how I am, if that makes sense. You know, kind of like I, I try to, um, get them [01:47:45] to adapt to me. And it’s because you’ve got time to do that now, once you’re in practice, right? [01:47:50] You you learn first that you’ll do everything. You’ll dive down and try and be all, you know, bells [01:47:55] and whistles for your patient. But then you realise you can’t, you can’t sustain. That is really hard to sustain. [01:48:00] So you try to get your patients to become conform to how you are as well. [01:48:05] And your methodology.

Payman Langroudi: Your patient base ends up like you in the long run.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, yeah. You know, they’re more chilled. They’re [01:48:10] more relaxed. They you know, they.

Payman Langroudi: How many days do you.

Martin Attariani: Work. You don’t they they feel of you. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: When you’re. [01:48:15]

Martin Attariani: Treating.

Payman Langroudi: Them how many days do you work.

Martin Attariani: So I do four days a week for four days.

Vinne Attariani: I [01:48:20] do three days at Houston and half a day at Martin’s practice. [01:48:25] I just do Invisalign and.

Martin Attariani: Well, we’ve worked six days a week before.

Vinne Attariani: When we.

Martin Attariani: Used. [01:48:30]

Vinne Attariani: To do.

Martin Attariani: Children’s private schools and everything. We were doing six days a week for maybe ten [01:48:35] years. 12 years. So we’ve been there as well.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not sure it’s a good idea.

Martin Attariani: Well, [01:48:40] we didn’t have a lot of choice, really. When you go, you know.

Vinne Attariani: Two young. [01:48:45]

Martin Attariani: Kids and two kids in private schools and everything. It was just [01:48:50] a. Yeah, it’s just a cycle.

Vinne Attariani: I used to do six days every other week. [01:48:55] Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Just couldn’t get out of it.

Payman Langroudi: But there is, there is a I mean, why didn’t you work seven days a week? If [01:49:00] you want to take it to its. You know, there is a there’s an optimum. Yeah. [01:49:05]

Martin Attariani: Well, I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Why didn’t you work seven days a.

Martin Attariani: Week again? It was.

Payman Langroudi: Just it wouldn’t [01:49:10] have made sense.

Martin Attariani: Because one day you would.

Payman Langroudi: Have.

Martin Attariani: Had to dedicate it to the family then obviously.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. [01:49:15]

Martin Attariani: And you need that break. I mean, no, obviously six days is not ideal for suggesting [01:49:20] that.

Payman Langroudi: Four is correct when you’re working at the.

Martin Attariani: Level.

Payman Langroudi: At the level that you do.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: We’re very comfortable [01:49:25] now.

Payman Langroudi: No, no.

Martin Attariani: But it’s it’s.

Payman Langroudi: It’s hard work. You just went through it. Yeah. I mean [01:49:30] the stress management, the social side of it. Not to mention you’ve got three scanners [01:49:35] and full mouth rehabs and implants and sinus lifts and, you know, making sure everything [01:49:40] happens correctly. Lasers. You have lasers, I think. Yeah. Of course.

Martin Attariani: Lasers [01:49:45] to lasers.

Payman Langroudi: So four days a week at that level? Yeah. By the [01:49:50] way NHS as well because that’s bloody hard work. It’s taxing four days a week. I remember that [01:49:55] classic cliche 5 to 4. You make the same amount of money. Yeah. You know, because [01:50:00] you’re sharper. You’re finishing stuff off. You’re not temporising anything. [01:50:05] You’re a dirty word. You’re selling better because you’re sharper.

Vinne Attariani: Your experience. [01:50:10] Right? Yeah, I’m doing the same on three as I did on four and a half.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:50:15] So by the way, I tried to take that to three days a week to see whether I could, and I just couldn’t. [01:50:20] I just couldn’t make.

Vinne Attariani: It three days.

Payman Langroudi: A week.

Vinne Attariani: But you have you have to have if [01:50:25] you don’t have a work life balance, it’s all going to unravel as well. That’s sometimes what I [01:50:30] think. Being very determined. Most people aren’t professional. Very highly driven. And we will just [01:50:35] keep churning and working and working and taking work home. And there’s no cut off, especially if it’s your own business. [01:50:40] If it’s your own practice. There is no 9 to 5. It’s. Yeah. Into the evening, [01:50:45] into weekends. Right. But you have to you have to control that yourself. You know, [01:50:50] you have to have the time off. That’s why we travel a lot, you know, enjoy our evenings, [01:50:55] weekends. We’re always, you know, we’re not doing anything. Dental on the weekend. It’s just [01:51:00] me, Martin family go out, you know, sports, [01:51:05] holidays, and that’s important.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve we’ve come to the end of our time. [01:51:10] So we’re going to I’m going to end it with a quick, quick fire round that. I want to hear both of [01:51:15] your responses.

Vinne Attariani: Oh, gosh.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the best course you’ve ever been on?

Vinne Attariani: The [01:51:20] best course.

Martin Attariani: Um, I just I just saw [01:51:25] the enlightened sign And lighter and lighter and 100 Payman [01:51:30] composite makeover.

[EVERYONE]: What’s the right answer? No no no no. Come on. Do [01:51:35] you know what?

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind?

[EVERYONE]: So quick, quick quick quick. The best courses. [01:51:40]

Martin Attariani: For me are cadaver courses.

[EVERYONE]: Oh, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Implant.

[EVERYONE]: Cadaver.

Martin Attariani: Well, anything cadaver. [01:51:45] If it’s cadaver, the facial aesthetics course.

[EVERYONE]: The best.

Martin Attariani: Course.

[EVERYONE]: Ever.

Payman Langroudi: I didn’t know there was [01:51:50] such a thing.

Vinne Attariani: You did that. That was actually the hands on Holland. Brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: Who would you. Who would you say is your hero [01:51:55] in dentistry?

Martin Attariani: Payman.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

[EVERYONE]: Come on. Good. [01:52:00]

Vinne Attariani: I would say my husband.

[EVERYONE]: Really?

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. [01:52:05]

Martin Attariani: Oh.

Vinne Attariani: I have I have learned a lot from him. Even before we were together, actually. [01:52:10] And I think maybe that’s a call to your education in Sweden. It was a different. [01:52:15] It was just an eye opener of seeing things in a different viewpoint. You know, I still lean on him [01:52:20] for, for support with, um, cases and things. Yeah, I would say [01:52:25] that.

Payman Langroudi: Who would you.

[EVERYONE]: Say?

Payman Langroudi: Mentor.

[EVERYONE]: Um.

Payman Langroudi: I book [01:52:30] that you read.

Martin Attariani: I learned a lot from Stuart Harding, to be honest.

[EVERYONE]: Oh, really?

Martin Attariani: Yeah. [01:52:35] I did an MSC with him. Yeah. And I really look up to to him. He’s [01:52:40] very humble. He’s very good at educating. Yeah. And he’s very approachable. [01:52:45] And I do like people like that in dentistry. I think we should all be approachable, [01:52:50] uh, towards each other. And, uh, he’s he’s made a huge impact [01:52:55] in, in especially my implant work, to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: Favourite piece [01:53:00] of kit? I can’t live without. Scanner. Scanner. Scanner.

Martin Attariani: Uh, [01:53:05] I can mention three.

[EVERYONE]: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Uh, scanner. [01:53:10]

[EVERYONE]: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Loops. And my foot operated, uh, chair. I [01:53:15] can’t be without them.

Payman Langroudi: Foot operated.

[EVERYONE]: Chair.

Payman Langroudi: So it.

[EVERYONE]: Goes up.

Martin Attariani: And down [01:53:20] with your foot.

[EVERYONE]: Pedal.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, it doesn’t move.

[EVERYONE]: Yeah, yeah.

Martin Attariani: I couldn’t work without these three. Honestly. [01:53:25]

[EVERYONE]: Am I psychic?

Martin Attariani: Okay.

[EVERYONE]: That’s four.

Vinne Attariani: He said one.

Payman Langroudi: Actually, [01:53:30] this is this is one of our final two questions that we ask everyone.

[EVERYONE]: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Fantasy dinner party. [01:53:35]

[EVERYONE]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests, dead or alive.

Vinne Attariani: You go first.

[EVERYONE]: So I [01:53:40] would.

Martin Attariani: Probably have my dad, my granddad and my dad’s [01:53:45] granddad.

[EVERYONE]: For generations.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve never had that before.

[EVERYONE]: Interesting [01:53:50] idea.

Martin Attariani: Honestly, if I could, because you mentioned dead or alive, I think [01:53:55] I would get so much out of that conversation.

Payman Langroudi: What an interesting idea.

Martin Attariani: You know, um, [01:54:00] because life is experience. And imagine if you had [01:54:05] that sort of knowledge in your in, in in, in, in, in [01:54:10] your luggage through life. So that’s probably why I.

[EVERYONE]: Would.

Payman Langroudi: Say.

[EVERYONE]: Idea.

Payman Langroudi: What comes [01:54:15] to mind for me.

Vinne Attariani: Is a Captain America Thor and Iron Man.

[EVERYONE]: You [01:54:20] never had that before.

Payman Langroudi: Who was the third one?

Vinne Attariani: Iron [01:54:25] man.

Payman Langroudi: What’s that? I don’t even know what that is.

Vinne Attariani: They are the Avengers.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, is he Iron [01:54:30] Man? Final question. It’s a deathbed question. On your deathbed, [01:54:35] surrounded by your loved ones. Three pieces [01:54:40] of wisdom. You can leave them with. What would that be?

Vinne Attariani: I [01:54:45] would say enjoy the journey. Don’t. [01:54:50] Don’t wind yourself up over worrying about tomorrow. It’s [01:54:55] all today.

Payman Langroudi: Live in the.

Vinne Attariani: Present. Everything is today. You can’t [01:55:00] think about tomorrow. It’s good to be thinking ahead. But your focus has to be day [01:55:05] to day. Because you don’t know if you’re going to be here tomorrow. My patients say this to me on the way out. I say, I’ll [01:55:10] see you in six months because they’re older. They’re like, oh, if I’m still here. And I always say, If I’m [01:55:15] still here because. Because I’ve got just as much, you know, chance as somebody [01:55:20] who’s, you know, in their 80s and 90s. So I think you just you have to enjoy today, just be present [01:55:25] with what you’re doing. Um, look after yourself before you look [01:55:30] after everybody else. Because if you’re not looking after you there, there is nothing [01:55:35] for anyone else. And that’s really important because that’s hard to do if you’re naturally a giver [01:55:40] or a giver, you know? Um, we’re again, we always give our time to everybody [01:55:45] else. You forget that you need that same kind of nurturing. Um, and [01:55:50] the third bit of advice. Have fun. [01:55:55] You know, it’s really important. Life is. Don’t take things so seriously. [01:56:00] Things aren’t as serious as you know. You think they are. Everything at the end of the day is [01:56:05] going to be a drop in the ocean. You know, one occurrence. Now you’re going to forget it. You know, [01:56:10] one bad time, you’ll hopefully forget it in three months or six months. In a year, it won’t be there anymore. So [01:56:15] sometimes you’ve just got to see the bright side of everything.

[TRANSITION]: I like this.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:56:20] comes to mind?

[EVERYONE]: Milton.

Martin Attariani: I would probably say, um, do [01:56:25] your best in in whatever you do. And that could be your job, your [01:56:30] your marriage, even a travel you do always do your best in what you do. [01:56:35] Because when you get to your last years of, of of life, you’re always going to people [01:56:40] tend I’m saying tend because I’m not there yet, hopefully. [01:56:45] But people tend to live with a lot of regrets. Yeah. And I think if you do your best in whatever [01:56:50] you do, you minimise that risk. Um, thinking, oh, [01:56:55] I wish I would have done that better or just do your best in whatever you do. Even your marriage. You know your friendship. [01:57:00] Do your best. Um, the second thing I would say is that what you don’t, [01:57:05] uh, wish for yourself? Don’t wish upon other [01:57:10] people. And I think that’s.

[EVERYONE]: Doesn’t treat.

Payman Langroudi: People as you wish to be treated yourself.

[EVERYONE]: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: So, you know, [01:57:15] um, that probably teaches you if you just follow by that rule, you just teach. It teaches [01:57:20] you to be a kind human being. Yeah. And again, when you get to those last, [01:57:25] uh, years of your life, you know, you start to analyse, maybe I should have [01:57:30] done that to this person. Or should I have lied to that person? Again, it’s it’s all about, [01:57:35] uh, preparing yourself for those last years or end of [01:57:40] your journey to feel that, you know, again, I did my best.

[EVERYONE]: I [01:57:45] treated.

Martin Attariani: Everybody nicely. But then the last thing I would say is travel [01:57:50] the world because we live on an. Well, probably the most [01:57:55] beautiful planet. And and unfortunately, I think it’s a shame [01:58:00] to leave this planet without having seen many places. That’s why we travel so much [01:58:05] past, uh, eight, nine years. I think we’ve been to 30, [01:58:10] 40 countries now. Or places. Yeah. Uh, you know, the more you travel, the more [01:58:15] you want to see.

Payman Langroudi: Add to that travel young.

Martin Attariani: Travel young I think at [01:58:20] any time. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Sure, but you.

Martin Attariani: Are getting older.

Vinne Attariani: My because we didn’t [01:58:25] have the opportunity. That’s what I’m saying. Ours was different.

Martin Attariani: So whenever you can obviously if [01:58:30] you can do young which the younger generation, by the way, are doing beautifully nowadays don’t they. [01:58:35] Yeah. Yeah I agree with you. Yeah. But at any time I think.

Payman Langroudi: It’s almost like what I mean is.

Martin Attariani: It’s [01:58:40] important for two.

Payman Langroudi: Reasons. Two reasons for that. Of course it’s important to see. Of course. Yeah. I really want to go to Peru [01:58:45] and I haven’t seen it yet. I would love to.

Vinne Attariani: We just came.

Payman Langroudi: Back. Oh.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Do the Inca trail. [01:58:50] Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well, I don’t know, but I sit on the train.

Vinne Attariani: We we [01:58:55] we did the Inca Trail.

Payman Langroudi: I was I want the ceviche, actually. But my point is, when you go [01:59:00] young anywhere, you haven’t yet made your mind up about everything.

Martin Attariani: That’s one thing to see. [01:59:05] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And number two, when you get to our age, you want five star stuff. And a five [01:59:10] star hotel in Lima is pretty much the same as a five star hotel in Moscow. You know what I mean? Like [01:59:15] you’re almost. You’re not, you know, you’re going to top restaurant. You know what I mean? You want comfort so much [01:59:20] that you prioritise comfort and you don’t really live with the people.

Martin Attariani: You don’t think it’s important to eat. So I [01:59:25] think it’s important to go see places, see cultures, see [01:59:30] people as they live, as they are.

Payman Langroudi: Because that’s why I like Airbnbs. Yes. [01:59:35] Kind of feel like.

Martin Attariani: There’s there’s so much it you know life [01:59:40] is is about perspective. Yeah. And we were talking about [01:59:45] suicide and everything. Yeah I think it’s important to have perspective in your life when [01:59:50] you feel that you’ve failed as a dentist. And this case is going to be [01:59:55] the ruin of me, I’m going to lose everything. I’m going to lose, you know, all my [02:00:00] money, this and that. If you got perspective, then you need to think, [02:00:05] okay, so what?

Payman Langroudi: Tomorrow you might be happy.

Martin Attariani: So what? I remember About [02:00:10] being in Kilimanjaro. And we were walking, uh, or we were travelling [02:00:15] through villages there and people living in, in just home [02:00:20] handmade homes with just literally a curtain as a door into [02:00:25] their homes. I mean, if people can live like that on this planet, [02:00:30] I don’t care. Even if I lose everything, uh, then [02:00:35] I’m still going to be fine. So then hopefully you don’t do what? You know [02:00:40] what you do. Uh, so I think that only comes when you’ve been exposed [02:00:45] to that, to when you’ve seen how other [02:00:50] people live on this planet and the way. Yeah. I think it’s really important because you [02:00:55] lose your perception as a dentist. You lose your perception, as you say. You get comfortable [02:01:00] with your five star hotels and nice car, this and that. But end of the day, what if you [02:01:05] lose everything? So what? You can work your way up again.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been such a brilliant conversation [02:01:10] I really enjoyed. I’ve learnt a lot as well really. I knew I would. Really, really lovely to have you both [02:01:15] in person.

Martin Attariani: Thank you for having us. It’s been a.

Payman Langroudi: Long time coming.

Martin Attariani: It has? Absolutely. [02:01:20]

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much.

Martin Attariani: Thank you so.

Vinne Attariani: Much.

Martin Attariani: For having us.

[VOICE]: This [02:01:25] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one [02:01:30] on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [02:01:35] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [02:01:40] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [02:01:45] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we [02:01:50] had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. [02:01:55]

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [02:02:00] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. [02:02:05] Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.