Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by enlighten. Enlighten is an advanced teeth whitening system. [00:00:05] We try really hard. We’ve treated half a million patients in 11 countries. Now, if you want [00:00:10] to know what all the fuss is about, get yourself onto Enlighten online training. Enlighten online [00:00:15] training.com. Let’s get to the pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:20] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:25] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [00:00:30] Your hosts Payman [00:00:35] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome [00:00:40] Annie Seaborn onto the pod. Annie is a dentist who’s gone right [00:00:45] into the sports dentistry field, um, a lacrosse player [00:00:50] at national level and recently working in Bupa [00:00:55] as. What’s the official title?

Anni Seaborne: Head of general dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Head of general [00:01:00] dentistry. It’s a big title.

Anni Seaborne: It’s a big title.

Payman Langroudi: Did you feel good about getting that title? [00:01:05] It’s a big.

Anni Seaborne: Title. I definitely had imposter syndrome. It was even [00:01:10] applying for it at the beginning was a bit like, what am I doing? But then I was like, [00:01:15] you, you miss all the shots you don’t take. So I was like, well, go for it. Um. Why not? On [00:01:20] paper I was not qualified, but equally, I don’t think anyone who applied for it really was [00:01:25] that qualified for it because it was a business role.

Payman Langroudi: The training for that job was weird.

Anni Seaborne: So it’s definitely [00:01:30] a more business role rather than a clinical role. So even though it’s part of a wider group for [00:01:35] the clinical, um, what we call clinical clinical [00:01:40] advisory team advisory team is the word I’m looking for. Um, but we’re not [00:01:45] actually advising clinicians. We’re advising the kind of the corporate structure, the business people.

Payman Langroudi: About [00:01:50] the clinicians.

Anni Seaborne: Exactly. Being a voice for the clinicians.

Payman Langroudi: The link between the corporate structure and the clinicians. [00:01:55] Right, right. Right. Right, right. Um also graduated from the [00:02:00] best dental school in the country. Yes. Cardiff, which which we both [00:02:05] graduated from. Um, tell me about how you got into dentistry in the first place.

Anni Seaborne: How I got into dentistry. [00:02:10] Well, the reality was I didn’t want to be a dentist. Um, if I [00:02:15] had it my way, I would have done something to do with sports from the off. But, [00:02:20] um, I was quite good at sciences. My parents pushed me down that route. [00:02:25] Um, and then I looked at medicine, um, and [00:02:30] something that really captivated me was actually Max facts. So I did some work experience at down at [00:02:35] the Royal Surrey with the Max facts team, and they all said, if you’re going to do max facts, you [00:02:40] have to do the best way around would be dentistry first, then medicine. And that’s kind of what [00:02:45] got me into dentistry and looking at that. Okay. Um, so then I applied for dental school, [00:02:50] my fifth choice. Um, because, you know, you can only apply for four dental options, then one has to [00:02:55] be either was sports science, and I was a little bit disappointed when I got my results and found out I had been accepted [00:03:00] because I had to say no to going to bath to do sports science. Um, but [00:03:05] yeah, that’s how I basically got into dentistry was kind of a little bit of an accident, but also the Max Factor Consultants, [00:03:10] um, at Royal Surrey, basically telling me that was the easiest way around to get to Max [00:03:15] FACs.

Payman Langroudi: Did you grow up in Surrey?

Anni Seaborne: Yes. Uh, well, that was our base. Um, I actually grew up around the world. [00:03:20] So, yeah, my dad was an expat, um, worked in oil, so I kind [00:03:25] of grew up going to various countries and then ended up boarding school for secondary school. In [00:03:30] which.

Payman Langroudi: Countries did you live.

Anni Seaborne: In? Where did I live? In all sorts. Uh, Yemen. Nigeria. [00:03:35] Um, Azerbaijan. Mozambique. Those were the ones that I was [00:03:40] probably in. And then also my dad was also in Brazil, Trinidad. But most of that time I was at boarding.

Payman Langroudi: Whoa. [00:03:45] So boarding here.

Anni Seaborne: Boarding here? Yep. Boarding in Surrey.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [00:03:50] such an interesting way of growing up. Right?

Anni Seaborne: It was the best at the at the time. [00:03:55] I wanted to fit in. At the time, I wanted to stick in a school for more than two years. [00:04:00] Looking back on, it was the most privileged, amazing upbringing because.

Payman Langroudi: People [00:04:05] say changing schools as well as being super disruptive, makes you into the kind of person who can [00:04:10] talk to anyone, get on with anyone, because you’re kind of forced to do that again and again. [00:04:15] But then changing schools in lots of countries that must be like that must give [00:04:20] you superpowers.

Anni Seaborne: So I think the hardest bit was languages [00:04:25] because I was in like for example, Mozambique. I was English speaking [00:04:30] in a French speaking school in a Portuguese speaking country. Wow. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:04:35] I’m only there for a couple of years.

Anni Seaborne: I was only there for two years, 18 months, two years. So you just [00:04:40] have to adapt and just try your best. Um, and [00:04:45] yeah, you don’t realise I said at the at the time when you’re young. Also, I think you learn languages [00:04:50] quicker and you kind of are a little bit more you. You’re not worried [00:04:55] about what people think of you. So you’re happy to make mistakes and just fumble along with it. Um, [00:05:00] but yeah, I don’t think I quite realised how flexible I [00:05:05] had to be growing up, and actually how that probably has meant that I kind of am quite good at just fitting in in [00:05:10] different scenarios.

Payman Langroudi: And boarding school kind of gives you this sort of self-reliance muscle, [00:05:15] doesn’t it? I mean, the people I know who’ve been to boarding school, we had boarders in our school, but I [00:05:20] was a day to day kid. But people I know who’ve been to boarding school have this sort of almost [00:05:25] a very strong on the whole organisation and, and just being good at the [00:05:30] basics of life, you know. Is that correct?

Anni Seaborne: I would say so. You just have to get things done. You [00:05:35] have to find a way. And especially because my parents weren’t actually in the country for a lot of it, if you wanted [00:05:40] to do something, you just had to find a way to do it.

Payman Langroudi: You send your kid to boarding school.

Anni Seaborne: If I could afford [00:05:45] to. And they wanted to. Absolutely. Um, I wouldn’t force it upon. [00:05:50] And I know it’s not for everyone, but I had the best time of my life. Um, my partner also.

Payman Langroudi: Was. [00:05:55]

Anni Seaborne: A. He was at boarding school from age eight. Um, I’m not sure I’d do that. But equally, [00:06:00] as I said, if my child wanted to, and I was financially able [00:06:05] to, of course. Yeah, I thought it was honestly amazing. Also because I was I say this [00:06:10] I was an only child to my parents. My dad did have I have half siblings, but they were significantly [00:06:15] older than me. So growing up I was on my own. And I think when you are jumping around, it was nice to [00:06:20] have stability and nice to have friends and people around you. Um, so I think that [00:06:25] was a big part of why I really enjoyed it, but it did make me very independent. Um, [00:06:30] and growing up, like at university, I moved to university on my own. My parents didn’t come with me, um, [00:06:35] even though they were actually in the country. I think they just had other plans. But [00:06:40] I just got on the train to Cardiff with all my bags and then fumbled around, found my key to the [00:06:45] halls, and then, um, Amazing. And then, um.

Payman Langroudi: Did the sports kick in? In [00:06:50] school?

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. Sports from a young age.

Payman Langroudi: And was it only lacrosse or [00:06:55] was it lacrosse?

Anni Seaborne: My original sport was swimming. That’s what my parents invested a lot [00:07:00] in. Lots of hours. Um, I then developed a chlorine allergy. Oh, wow. So [00:07:05] I was quite, um, went to quite a high level county nationals. [00:07:10] Um, but at a young age. So I say, like, it seems good, but really, [00:07:15] it was under 12. Under 13? Um, developed a chlorine allergy, so I had to step [00:07:20] away from that. We tried to do it on steroids and all of that, but my parents were like, this is just not [00:07:25] not worth it. Yeah. Um, and then just threw myself into any [00:07:30] and every sport, and lacrosse was the one that kind of stuck as such. And also my [00:07:35] school played it. They were very good. We were would go to nationals regularly, come like national finals [00:07:40] if not win as well. So um, I was in in a high performance environment from school [00:07:45] as well. But honestly, any sport, I would give it a go.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:07:50] So sports dentistry is a kind of thing that most people haven’t heard of. [00:07:55] When was the first time you heard of it properly? [00:08:00]

Anni Seaborne: As like an actual discipline? Not until I did my master’s, until I looked it up, but I did. Um, [00:08:05] I don’t know if you had this, but we didn’t get to go on elective at Cardiff. We had to do our final year project [00:08:10] like a dissertation.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I won’t.

Anni Seaborne: Elective elective. Well, they must [00:08:15] have got rid of it.

Payman Langroudi: I was in San Francisco for four months.

Anni Seaborne: I was in the library typing [00:08:20] out. Um, yeah. So we don’t get to go on elective. I don’t know if they’ve changed it again. Um, [00:08:25] but we had to do a final year project. We had to do a dissertation, and I actually did my dissertation [00:08:30] on head and neck trauma of lacrosse. And whether goggles like protective goggles, I [00:08:35] don’t know if you’ve seen them, um, should be mandated in the UK because they’re mandated in the US. Um, [00:08:40] so that was my kind of first thing accidentally, just because that’s what interested me, [00:08:45] and trying to find a supervisor was really hard. I kind of had a joint supervisor between Max [00:08:50] and PEDs, but even that, they were like, we’re not really sure what what you’re doing. Um, [00:08:55] I remember in my feedback that I got someone even wrote hockey like, and I was like, my whole dissertation [00:09:00] was on the cross, but okay. That’s funny. Um, but. So, yeah, [00:09:05] that was that was the first time I kind of looked into it. But as I said, I didn’t really know that it [00:09:10] existed. Um, and then and then I just saw on the Eastman website I was looking, I [00:09:15] think I was looking at composite courses or something like, um, restorative courses.

Anni Seaborne: And then I saw that [00:09:20] there was actually a sports dentistry, and initially it was a CPD certificate. And [00:09:25] then when I went back to check, um, they’d launched a master’s program. And [00:09:30] so I was like, this is perfect. This is everything that I want to do. Um, admittedly, [00:09:35] looking back on it, I probably went in a year too early because I was only, I think, two years out of uni at [00:09:40] this point. Um, so going on the course, it was a three years course and [00:09:45] a lot of it. I knew everything, but I didn’t have much experience in everything. And the other people on the course [00:09:50] were quite a lot older and more experienced in general clinical dentistry. So [00:09:55] there was a lot of things that I was kind of learning and being like, oh gosh, I’m not super comfortable [00:10:00] with this. It’s not part of my day to day practice. Yeah. Um, so [00:10:05] but yeah, that was that was basically the start of my sports dentistry journey. Unfortunately, [00:10:10] though, I think the course lost its funding actually. So it only managed three year cycles. So [00:10:15] the final cycle, um, I think imogen’s the final in the final [00:10:20] year group. And she’ll be graduating this year next year.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, who’s the Pascal [00:10:25] manager of sports dentistry? Is there someone like is it is it is there a department somewhere [00:10:30] that’s really good at it?

Anni Seaborne: Um, do you know it’s huge in Brazil?

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Anni Seaborne: Is it? And huge in Germany.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [00:10:35] Really.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. Big funding treatment. Lots of them that are doing it. America. [00:10:40] There’s quite a few people, but.

Payman Langroudi: So it exists outside of the UK.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, yeah. [00:10:45] There’s like an international WhatsApp group and there’s always buzz going on there.

Payman Langroudi: And so is [00:10:50] the goal of a sports dentist to be the dentist for a sports team or a sports player? Is that was that what that is [00:10:55] generally. Is that what people are after?

Anni Seaborne: Yes and no. Um, I’m [00:11:00] kind of looking at the bigger picture. Like I kind of want to make more of a difference and just. I’ll be honest, [00:11:05] I’ve ticked the boxes that I wanted to tick. My goal when I went on the course, I was like, oh, do you know what would be great? Would be great to be [00:11:10] the England rugby dentist. And I got there quite quickly, which was not my [00:11:15] plan. My plan that was like a 510 year work my way up. That’s how I that’s where I want to be. And [00:11:20] within a year, I think within two years of finishing my master’s, a year or [00:11:25] two. Yeah, I ended up getting that job and kind of running with it. I’m looking at the bigger picture, bigger [00:11:30] treating of athletes and actually taking it seriously, because I think a lot of people do think exactly that. It’s just like, oh, you work for a [00:11:35] sports team. And actually it’s a whole process as a whole, almost patient demographic. So [00:11:40] it’s the whole cycle. Seasonal cycle. So from pre-season to it.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:11:45] let’s.

Anni Seaborne: Start.

Payman Langroudi: With let’s start with that ambition of becoming the. So it tends to in my experience [00:11:50] it tends to be people dentists who love a sport. Yeah. Want to hang with.

Anni Seaborne: They want [00:11:55] to hang. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And and so but day to day what does it entail? Because one [00:12:00] of my best friends, he. He was the dentist for Chelsea. And I was sort of saying [00:12:05] the same thing to him. I was saying, you just want to hang with these players, right? That’s what it is. And then he said something about, [00:12:10] look, that player is being paid £200,000 a week to play football. If [00:12:15] he’s got toothache, the club needs to to pin that on someone. These [00:12:20] are large amounts of money. So if the club provides a dentist for that guy, he’s got no excuse [00:12:25] to have toothache. And I thought, oh, God, it’s like a whole more serious, like, business case for it in [00:12:30] football, I guess.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what does it entail being the [00:12:35] rugby team’s dentist. Do you go to every game? Is that what happens?

Anni Seaborne: No, I mean story. [00:12:40] Yeah. Lots of traumas that you see, especially with rugby. Um, I’ve done a [00:12:45] couple of pitchside. I’ll be honest. I just sit there in the cold and as glamorous [00:12:50] as you think it’s going to be, um, when you’re properly pitchside, you’re on a plastic chair or maybe in [00:12:55] the dugout. Um, you’re at ground level, so you don’t even get [00:13:00] a good view of the match. So it’s not like you get to watch the match and enjoy it. Um, if [00:13:05] I’m completely honest, it’s a little bit awkward for me in the changing rooms being female, and I work mostly with [00:13:10] male teams. Um, the other females are like physios. They’re strapping. I’m just stood [00:13:15] there in the changing room, so I’m not doing as much pitchside [00:13:20] stuff, at least with the clubs.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so. So then you’re the dentist that they advised [00:13:25] the team to go to?

Anni Seaborne: Exactly. But I’m also there at pre-season, so I go in. I [00:13:30] do not exams but screenings. So kind of just point them in the right direction. [00:13:35] Take scans, do their mouth guards education pieces, create a rapport with them [00:13:40] so that they actually come to the dentist? Because we we don’t want it to be reactive. We want to be proactive. And [00:13:45] then when we’ve got that baseline, we can then move to a more performance led kind of strategy [00:13:50] where you’re actually looking at enhancing performance, getting rid of inflammation, getting just [00:13:55] giving them kind of the best dentition. Because it’s crazy that you have these athletes [00:14:00] who like, look after everything and do ice baths and do all of that, [00:14:05] and yet their teeth have got rampant caries or gingivitis or whatever going on, and that’s all going [00:14:10] to affect their, their health. So that’s kind of the staging of it, is that you’re actually looking from a performance [00:14:15] point of view, but you’ve got to create that rapport and trust with them. And another thing that is when you [00:14:20] create that trust with them, they actually disclose a lot that they might not disclose to other medical [00:14:25] team members because you’re involved enough that they trust you, but not involved so much that you’re going [00:14:30] to affect the coaches decision.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Anni Seaborne: So I hear a lot about niggles or concerns [00:14:35] or there’s a big increase in use of snas and they’ll be [00:14:40] like oh I’m using this actually I’ve got a burn or I’ve had this niggle and I’m taking this [00:14:45] meds for it. Or can I ask an opinion on smoking or something like that. Yeah. Or can you look [00:14:50] at this lesion or do you know, people have asked me to look at kind of things on their bodies as well and be like, okay, I can’t [00:14:55] really give you medical advice here, but I can say whether, okay, you should probably get that checked [00:15:00] out.

Payman Langroudi: What a nuance. Like what a nuance that they can talk to you about something like [00:15:05] that and maybe don’t want to bring it up with the official team doctor or something. [00:15:10] You’d never think of something like that, would you?

Anni Seaborne: No, you don’t, and you’re in a privileged position. But you’ve got you’ve [00:15:15] got to earn it. You’re not. I said you don’t want to be reactive. And that’s really where sports dentistry comes into it, is that you [00:15:20] should be part of the medical team. Yes. You’re not going to have as much say as the physio, but [00:15:25] you you’re working with the team so have really strong relationships with the physiotherapist, with the lead doctors. [00:15:30]

Payman Langroudi: Um, and is there you’re kind of an elite athlete, right? Is there something [00:15:35] about elite athletes, athletes from the sugar intake perspective [00:15:40] or a huge.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or are they severe because they’re so, like [00:15:45] pushing themselves so hard like perfectionists? What patterns do you see amongst [00:15:50] elite?

Anni Seaborne: Honestly, they are one of the highest risk athletes for pretty much everything. Um, patients [00:15:55] of anything. So if you look at their diet, um, so if you pick [00:16:00] any athlete and you can look at different sports and they’ll have different risk factors. So if you look at a long distance [00:16:05] runner, they are going to be taking glucose gels or glucose drinks all the time. They’re [00:16:10] likely going to be dehydrated um, a lot of the time. So obviously less saliva flow. So they’re [00:16:15] not able to fight those sugars. Um, if it’s a preseason, they’ll be throwing up perhaps [00:16:20] a little bit more. If they’re perhaps in a weight category based, they’re going to be vomiting a lot more. So you’re going to [00:16:25] see erosion, um, if their power sport or certain positions. In rugby, for example, [00:16:30] the kickers. I find the fly halves tend to have to be bruxing, and actually it’s their clenching [00:16:35] as they’re creating the generating the power when they’re kicking, you [00:16:40] see. Yeah, it’s it’s honestly the, the lifestyle, [00:16:45] even though it’s meant to be the most healthy lifestyle is actually awful [00:16:50] for, um, oral health.

Payman Langroudi: You know, it’s like to be the best [00:16:55] at anything. It takes an unhealthy obsession.

Anni Seaborne: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Doesn’t it? You [00:17:00] could decide to be the best composite guy in Europe. Yeah. That’s going to affect your [00:17:05] life somehow. Yes. You know what I mean? Like it’s obsession. Obsession [00:17:10] does that. Everything else gets pushed aside for the for the one goal.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. And it’s finding [00:17:15] that balance because there are some people that you’re, it’s I’m not going to turn round and tell [00:17:20] an Ironman athlete to stop having glucose gels. Like obviously not. It’s finding a balance [00:17:25] between making sure that they’re getting the right supplements and energy, but also without [00:17:30] damaging their teeth. And it’s working with the sports nutritionists and the medical team to be like, okay, [00:17:35] if they’re doing I don’t know if Iron Man, if they do five K runs, if that’s literally just a warm up, but [00:17:40] if they’re doing A5K run, maybe you don’t need that energy gel. If you’re doing less than an hour [00:17:45] run up and saying like, I know you want to plan for the race, but [00:17:50] for certain, for certain training runs, don’t use those. Or just make sure you’re being [00:17:55] hydrated or perhaps use during that. Just prescribe some fat to help. Um, [00:18:00] and it’s also having that conversation when, um, once again, it comes back to that relationship [00:18:05] is those athletes who are in weight category may have eating disorders and things like that. You might be the [00:18:10] person that they feel comfortable to have a relationship have the conversation with. Because actually, once again, [00:18:15] their doctor is going to be the one that’s going to pull them out or talk to their coach. Whereas you can have a [00:18:20] conversation, you can spot it and say, look, you’re damaging your teeth. I know there’s something bigger going on. Really? [00:18:25] If someone’s got an eating disorder. Teeth are the least of the worries. But you can be [00:18:30] the one to have that conversation. Um, so yeah, honestly, athletes [00:18:35] teeth are shocking.

Payman Langroudi: And to get their trust. Does it. Do you have to be into [00:18:40] the sport?

Anni Seaborne: No, you have to. You have to know enough about the sport to understand. [00:18:45] And I think with any sport like I, um, recently started. Well, I say recently, a couple of years ago, I started [00:18:50] working in Formula One, and really, I knew nothing of it except that cars go round in a circle. Um, [00:18:55] and I knew who Michael Schumacher was and Lewis Hamilton, and that was the extent of it. You [00:19:00] have to know enough about the sport to be able to treat it appropriately and understand [00:19:05] the risk factors of it, but really, you’re part of the medical team. The [00:19:10] athletes don’t want a fan girl treating them. [00:19:15] They don’t want to be having photos. They want to be seeing a dentist. They want their [00:19:20] problem solving.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so that’s a good point.

Anni Seaborne: That’s. I think that’s probably [00:19:25] where I’ve excelled. So you I’ve never had a photo with a single athlete I’ve treated. [00:19:30] And that’s kind of my rule as such. Um, [00:19:35] that being said, I have done a commercial kind of link with one. [00:19:40] Um, but that was separate. And I said it wasn’t a personal photo. Um, and that was organised [00:19:45] separately. But I’m very much their dentist. I’m not going [00:19:50] to fangirl them and they don’t want that. And that’s how you create that rapport. It’s because they trust you. [00:19:55] Um, and they are just people at the end of the day and you realise that very, very quickly that [00:20:00] they just happen to be. Whilst our colleagues may be very good at composites, they happen to be very good at [00:20:05] football or very good at rugby. Um, they are just normal people and they want to be treated [00:20:10] like that. Um, and I think that’s a big thing in creating trust is [00:20:15] just treating them completely normal.

Payman Langroudi: I felt the same thing with celebrities, right?

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, [00:20:20] it’s Is exactly that story.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what about. You know, I don’t know if you know anything about that. [00:20:25] I’m sure you do. That. Appliances that that enhance your performance. Is [00:20:30] that rubbish? Is that real? What is that?

Anni Seaborne: It’s real. But with limited, [00:20:35] um, research, as in, there needs to be more. There’s not enough research on it.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:20:40] do you believe there’s an appliance you can put in someone’s mouth and they run faster or whatever it is?

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. So? So the studies [00:20:45] show increased power, um, increased speed, increased flexibility. It’s all about kind [00:20:50] of aligning your body musculature and all of that. Um, is [00:20:55] it. Well, it’s all about the 1%, but is it enough? And also it needs to be done consistently [00:21:00] with training our athletes, going to where I can barely get an athlete to wear a mouthguard like [00:21:05] a protective mouthguard. Are you going to get them to wear a splint? Um, I’ve had issues with I’ve tried [00:21:10] to approach teams to talk about it. Um, and there’s funding issues, whether they [00:21:15] kind of fully believe it because the research isn’t solid. So yeah, it’s a lot [00:21:20] of small kind of studies saying yes, it looks to be significant.

Payman Langroudi: But so what [00:21:25] are you doing increasing vertical. Like what is it. What.

Anni Seaborne: It’s just getting your jaw in the best position. [00:21:30] Kind of the most efficient position basically. Um to really align everything [00:21:35] and get your posture. It’s just but it’s that maintenance, isn’t it, of, um, [00:21:40] that posture. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So I guess a lot, a lot of sports.

Payman Langroudi: Dentistry is about [00:21:45] just the lifestyle bit around the dentistry itself. It’s [00:21:50] just regular dentistry on irregular people. Exactly.

Anni Seaborne: So nothing I do is revolutionary. [00:21:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: Um, I think I do a lot more trauma than the average dentist and probably [00:22:00] a lot more confident with dealing with trauma, but otherwise a lot of it is being [00:22:05] a PA to these. They honestly stupid time like stupid hours. [00:22:10] You get messages having to be accommodating to them, having to understand their sport to treatment [00:22:15] plan appropriately. So the way you may treatment plan a normal [00:22:20] kind of an accountant or finance person in the city versus how you treat treatment plan. [00:22:25] An athlete may be different based on their cycles. Are they in the middle of a World Cup? Are they at the beginning of the season? Are they [00:22:30] at the end of the season? Um, are they young? Are they going to do media duties? What, [00:22:35] like what’s going on in their life? Are they in the country or are they about to go abroad [00:22:40] or go travel the world? Do like with the formula one? Um, I do a lot of stuff on [00:22:45] call and then they have a little window, which basically just happening now where we try and get them in, sort [00:22:50] anything. And it’s a nightmare when anything happens mid-season, when I say I treat formula one, but I treat the whole team, so it’s [00:22:55] the whole race team behind the two drivers as well. Um, yeah. It’s [00:23:00] a nightmare being.

Payman Langroudi: Constantly around the world, right?

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, exactly. So it would be [00:23:05] like one week there in Las Vegas and now they’ve just been, I think in Abu Dhabi, like [00:23:10] all over the place. Um, so it’s knowing when they’re going to be back. [00:23:15] And it’s right. Is that temporary filling going to last, or am I going to have to actually [00:23:20] do something a bit more permanent, even though it’s temporary? Um, because actually they’re going to be away for another [00:23:25] month. Um, so it’s a lot of kind of thinking laterally.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: And really, that’s [00:23:30] where you do need to say you don’t need to know the sport, but you need to know how the sport works.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:23:35] Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: And does it pay.

Payman Langroudi: Does it, does it pay more than regular. Like [00:23:40] how does it pay.

Anni Seaborne: I don’t go into it for the finances.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Anni Seaborne: No. [00:23:45] Um, you get paid basically like [00:23:50] a normal patient insurance payouts for trauma, um, and then [00:23:55] some. So sometimes I do the screenings for free, but then you get kind of [00:24:00] the patients in return. Um, occasionally I’ll get paid to go do the scanning and screening, [00:24:05] um, kind of a day rate to go out there. But it’s not it’s not a lucrative.

Payman Langroudi: Friends [00:24:10] and family of the people. Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: You And once again, that’s rapport building. So [00:24:15] yeah, I do lots of partners, family, the support team. Um, [00:24:20] you tend to be the go to person that they recommend, especially if you’ve been at a place for [00:24:25] a period of time.

Payman Langroudi: So is there a dental surgery somewhere that the rugby team has or [00:24:30] do they come to you?

Anni Seaborne: They just.

Payman Langroudi: Come.

Anni Seaborne: To me. Where? Literally wherever I am. So, [00:24:35] um, they’ll either I’m split between Surrey and London and [00:24:40] wherever I am and how urgently they need me. They will just turn up wherever I can. They [00:24:45] can be seen. And then I’ve got a good network of dentists I work with. So if I’m not in the country or anything like that, [00:24:50] I’ll then refer them for it if there is an emergency.

Payman Langroudi: And if and dentists abroad [00:24:55] I guess where I mean, for instance, for formula one, you’d better find a dentist in each of these towns.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. So [00:25:00] they tend to go. If it’s anything major, they’ll either go, they’ll they’ll call me for an opinion. [00:25:05] Um, and they’ll either go to the local dentist and sometimes I’ll be on the phone or they’ll [00:25:10] if it’s a trauma, they’ll go to the hospital and then they’ll just send everything [00:25:15] over to me to kind of manage and oversee. Um, but yeah, I’ve got there’s I said there’s [00:25:20] a good network of support as a WhatsApp group of sports dentists across the world. So I, I [00:25:25] know someone somewhere, but also the dental community is great. The amount of [00:25:30] times that you can just be like, do you know anyone? And someone’s going to know someone? Um, and everyone’s [00:25:35] always happy to help.

Payman Langroudi: At what stage.

Payman Langroudi: Did you get to Bupa? How [00:25:40] many years after you qualified? When? When did Bupa come into the picture?

Anni Seaborne: When did Bupa. So I [00:25:45] did. So qualified. Did my training year in Cardiff. I then locums [00:25:50] for six months and travelled for six months. Um, and then it was after that I moved [00:25:55] to London and I got a job at the Bupa in Chelsea. Um.

Payman Langroudi: My wife.

Anni Seaborne: Exactly. [00:26:00] Yeah. Um, so. Yeah. [00:26:05] So that was back in 20. He. When was that [00:26:10] been? 2018.

Payman Langroudi: And this this new move that you’ve made into the sort of the management [00:26:15] side, was that your first move in that direction?

Anni Seaborne: No, no. So, um, [00:26:20] I’ve done a couple of kind of corporate business stuff. So I [00:26:25] first, after my leukaemia, I joined Bupa and I had [00:26:30] a two day, two day a week job. And I’ll be honest, I wasn’t enjoying NHS life, [00:26:35] um, wasn’t enjoying my dentistry, had just come back from travelling. I was like, this isn’t [00:26:40] really what I want to do. Um, so did the classic go into facial do a facial aesthetics [00:26:45] course? Um, so did that. But then I made a decision. I was actually, I’m not going to dabble in this. I’m actually [00:26:50] going to join a facial aesthetics company. Um, so [00:26:55] I joined one who took me on just straight off the course. They trained me up, did internal training, and worked for [00:27:00] them three days a week. And then actually over the next year, I worked my way up to medical director of that company. [00:27:05] So we ran nine clinics in London. So by the age of I think 25 or 26, I was medical [00:27:10] director of this company. So I was working one day a week in the office and then injecting two days. So that’s [00:27:15] when I started to learn about everything business, about what EBITDA meant, what all [00:27:20] the marketing, everything that goes on in terms of running a business. Um, alongside this, [00:27:25] um, back in 2018, I also had a big injury, um, which actually kind of I didn’t [00:27:30] know at the time, but stopped my lacrosse career. I never quite made it back from it.

Anni Seaborne: Um, and so [00:27:35] I made a decision when they were, um, the Wales Lacrosse Board. So I played for Wales, and, um, [00:27:40] I applied to be a member of the board as an ordinary member. So that was also kind of a step [00:27:45] into learning how businesses and organisations are run. So I was [00:27:50] doing that. I did that for actually 3 or 4 years. So as part of the world lacrosse boards, I saw kind of the [00:27:55] how they said manage everything. Um, so unfortunately in Covid, [00:28:00] the aesthetics company I worked for got bought out by a larger company, which [00:28:05] I didn’t quite align with. Um, so made the decision to step away, go back into dentistry. [00:28:10] And this was also tying up with me having started my, um, well, I was already [00:28:15] mid sports dentistry masters, so I was like, I need to go back into dentistry if I’m going to be providing the service. I can’t just [00:28:20] do it on one and a half days a week. Um, so took actually, that was the [00:28:25] first time that I was probably doing full dentistry for a while. Um, [00:28:30] and yeah, and then this opportunity came up at the actually, it was about [00:28:35] September time last year. Um, they put out the adverts within Bupa [00:28:40] saying that we’re creating a new clinical advisory team, um, looking for a director of dentistry, [00:28:45] director of um, nursing and hygiene and therapy and. [00:28:50] Yeah, and that’s how it started.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a comfort, like a.

Payman Langroudi: Confident [00:28:55] person who does all that. Right? It’s very you got to be confident to say [00:29:00] right of the I don’t know how many 1600 dentists in Bupa. [00:29:05] I could be director of dentistry.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, there’s 2800. There you.

Payman Langroudi: Go. There you [00:29:10] go.

Anni Seaborne: I looked at it and as I said, I [00:29:15] wasn’t quite qualified to be it. But then I looked around and I was looking at what they were looking [00:29:20] for, and I was like, you could be a dentist for 30, 40 years and still not be qualified [00:29:25] for this job role because it isn’t a clinical role. Um, [00:29:30] and then I happened to read something in the, I think it was the Harvard Law Review [00:29:35] or something like that. And I say I read it, I think I saw it on TikTok or something like that, but [00:29:40] that was the source of it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: That’s where it originally came from. And [00:29:45] it was, um, something [00:29:50] like 98% of men will apply for a job there, only 60% qualified [00:29:55] for, but only like 60% of women would qualify for [00:30:00] a job there. 98% qualified for. So I was just like, well, do you know what? I [00:30:05] may as well apply. What’s the worst that can happen? That can happen. Um, I’ll get to learn [00:30:10] from the experience. Um, I had already some experience in [00:30:15] running a business. A much smaller one, nine smaller aesthetic chains. But [00:30:20] I was like, I potentially have more experience than some people. Um, in terms of this [00:30:25] business. I have big ideas. I have purpose. I wanted to change and [00:30:30] disrupt the industry. I’ve known that from the start. Um, and [00:30:35] I just thought, why not? I said, what the worst thing that happened is I’m doing the exact [00:30:40] same thing that I was doing already, and. Yeah, and then it was a long process. [00:30:45] It was a proper corporate interview thing. So there was a there was a talent day initially, and [00:30:50] then there was, um, we had to do a self-tape. Um, [00:30:55] and then we got invited, I think. What was the next process? We then [00:31:00] got invited to pitch an our pitch to the board, so I had to pitch to Mark Gallen, um, [00:31:05] the GM and Fezzan, who’s one of our regional clinical directors, and [00:31:10] we were given, I think, four days preparation and what the pitch was about. Um, and then I [00:31:15] had two further interviews.

Payman Langroudi: What did you say?

Anni Seaborne: Well, in the pitch, um, [00:31:20] I’m trying to remember what the question was. It was something like three things that you would change or what were the three [00:31:25] most important things would be to you? I’m trying to remember what I said. Um, one was definitely [00:31:30] nursing. I think was prioritising nursing because I think you can’t [00:31:35] do your job without a nurse, basically. And we need to respect them [00:31:40] more. Yeah. Um, I one of my big passion projects is eliminating [00:31:45] this hierarchy within dentistry. It’s. We just have different job roles. That’s all it is. We’re [00:31:50] one team working to the same goal, and we’re just different job roles. And we [00:31:55] are not better than nurses. We’re just doing a different job and we don’t appreciate [00:32:00] that enough. So that was one of my I think that’s the thing I led with. Um, [00:32:05] I’m trying to think what the other ones. One was high performance in general. [00:32:10] Um, so obviously coming from my sporting background, I personally think the whole Dental structure, [00:32:15] as it has been historically, is self self-employed associates. Once [00:32:20] again, this whole hierarchy thing is the opposite of high performance. If you were in a sports team, this [00:32:25] is not how you would operate. Um, and it’s just looking [00:32:30] at how you can restructure and re change the [00:32:35] kind of the dynamic and the culture.

Payman Langroudi: When we started this company, I [00:32:40] kind of had this touchy feely idea because back then it was like a Google was supposed [00:32:45] to be really like fun and, and, and and then I realised, I mean, [00:32:50] the sort of today’s way that people think about companies is pro sports team. [00:32:55] It is that. Yeah. You know, I used to think of the of the company as a family and [00:33:00] think that’s different. And it’s not a family. It’s not. Yeah. As much as by the way, [00:33:05] you know, your hygienist isn’t a rock star. You know, like, you know what [00:33:10] your hygiene is this whole thing about rock star. Rock star. It’s not a family. Yeah, [00:33:15] it’s not a family. As much as we like to feel it is. It is not. No. Yeah. [00:33:20] You can’t expel people from your family. No, you can’t bring people into your family. [00:33:25] Yeah. Business is more like a pro sports team. Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: And you’ve got to get the best [00:33:30] out of people. Exactly. You’ve got to create an environment that they can thrive. But equally, yes, you can’t, but [00:33:35] you don’t want deadweight.

Payman Langroudi: Well, my point is, if there are associates who are amazing team players, [00:33:40] then it’s it’s, you know, the idea that you have to get rid of the [00:33:45] self-employed thing. Yeah. To fix your problem might not be necessarily the case.

Anni Seaborne: That’s the thing. [00:33:50] I don’t think it’s a case of getting rid of the self-employed, But I think that inherently [00:33:55] creates.

Payman Langroudi: That created it in the first place.

Anni Seaborne: It allows a certain mindset. Um, [00:34:00] but I don’t think the answer is getting rid of that, but it’s trying to work out how can we make [00:34:05] everyone a great team player, when all they’ve known since they’ve graduated [00:34:10] is that you don’t have to be, or they’ve been allowed to not be.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so tell me you’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Been involved [00:34:15] in lots of sports teams.

Anni Seaborne: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Are there some that are toxic.

Anni Seaborne: Do [00:34:20] you know I.

Payman Langroudi: And some that are amazing. Like are there different cultures within different [00:34:25] sports teams. There are.

Anni Seaborne: Ones I personally as in as a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Or person.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve [00:34:30] got so much experience of teams. Right.

Anni Seaborne: Teams. Yeah. Um. Have [00:34:35] there been toxic? They they come in waves. I don’t think any team is perfect all the time. [00:34:40] And it will be change each season, and personnel will come [00:34:45] and go. Coaches come, go. And it changes how people react. And [00:34:50] I think the, the the difficult balance is giving everyone [00:34:55] a certain level of autonomy, making sure they’re empowered versus having too much of a voice. Mhm. [00:35:00] And you see this both at kind of business level and at [00:35:05] literally the sport level, is that you want everyone to be able to feel comfortable to say what’s on their [00:35:10] mind. But at no point do you want the team starting to overrule the coach [00:35:15] or having too much of an opinion that the coach’s voice is diminished a bit and there’s almost not that authority [00:35:20] with it? So I haven’t been part of what [00:35:25] we’d say a toxic team. But I’ve definitely seen highs where we’re really flying [00:35:30] and times where we’re drowning because and then everyone’s trying to fight for it and trying really [00:35:35] hard. But actually we’re not cohesive and it doesn’t [00:35:40] create, as said that that environment that we’re thriving in.

Payman Langroudi: So the parallels, [00:35:45] if you if we could sort of wave a magic wand and I introduce you to a [00:35:50] Russian billionaire who’s going to fund your chain of dental practices? Yeah. [00:35:55] The parallels that you’d bring over from from from sports. What would you change [00:36:00] if you could? I mean, look, Bupa amazing. What an amazing organisation. But changing anything [00:36:05] at Bupa is going to be very difficult. It’s a massive organisation.

Anni Seaborne: It’s massive.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an oil tanker. [00:36:10] Yeah. Let’s imagine you had this, this, this thing that you could just design from the ground up. What [00:36:15] would you do to get this like high performing dental [00:36:20] team?

Anni Seaborne: Priority would be the environment. [00:36:25] So creating practices that people are proud to work in is something [00:36:30] that I think is really important. Because you go, it’s your place of work. You go in day in, day out. It’s [00:36:35] your if your environment is nice and you’re proud of it, you’re going to want to do good work [00:36:40] and want to work hard to kind of stay in that place.

Payman Langroudi: Also a way [00:36:45] of for nurses to progress an easier way for I think the corporate actually it’s quite good [00:36:50] corporates. Great. Because we can become an area manager or something. It’s a, it’s a nice thing. Could [00:36:55] go all the way up. Right.

Anni Seaborne: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: If they really want to. But what else.

Anni Seaborne: What [00:37:00] else? If I could wave a magic wand. Um, creating more kind of learning opportunities. [00:37:05] I said for everyone, um, CPD in-house, basically [00:37:10] doing the courses.

Payman Langroudi: Um, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, I, we have this thing with enlightened where we [00:37:15] say, oh, listen, for one week, really focus on teeth whitening and do this, that and the other. And it’s [00:37:20] a bit of a complicated thing because they have to change the way they work. Right? And then I always make this [00:37:25] point about how to compensate for the fact that we’re now asking the receptionist [00:37:30] to do this, that and that. What can we do to make it much more fun to come to [00:37:35] work?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I’ve sat in hundreds of practices asked that [00:37:40] question, and everyone’s blank.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I and I [00:37:45] reflect on it and say it might be. The most important question that needs to be answered [00:37:50] is, how can you make work more fun for everyone? Yeah. And yet [00:37:55] nobody has an answer to. It’s almost like work and fun aren’t [00:38:00] allowed to be mentioned in the same sentence. Yeah. Maybe that’s part of it. Yeah. [00:38:05]

Anni Seaborne: I think it’s. Do you know what? That’s that’s the question I basically lead every practice visit with. [00:38:10] I say blue sky thinking. What was your what would your perfect day at work look like? [00:38:15] Ignoring the stereotypes of what a day at work looks like for a dentist. And [00:38:20] people are just like all I care about is my nurse turns up and my chair works. Like [00:38:25] that’s all people care about. That the day runs smoothly, [00:38:30] and it’s because we’re not exposed to that kind of other corporate side. Um, that it can [00:38:35] be so much more than that. And I don’t know what that looks like. Obviously, we’ve still got to have service provision. We’ve still got to be able [00:38:40] to look after the patients. Um. Um, but [00:38:45] yeah, that that is the feedback that I get when I, when I ask because I’m like, come on, let’s give me some good ideas. [00:38:50] What can we roll with? And honestly, every single person just says, as long as I can, [00:38:55] all I have to worry about is the clinical side of things. That’s a good day. I’m more than content. [00:39:00] Um.

Payman Langroudi: Sad, isn’t it?

Anni Seaborne: It is sad because, you see, and I’ve been exposed to [00:39:05] this other side of the corporate world, um, where you do have kind of fancier [00:39:10] dinners and public speaking and nice, um, kind [00:39:15] of entertainment. And I’m like, oh, it could. This is fun. [00:39:20] I remember the first day I went into shows how simple I am, but the first day I went into the Bupa head office [00:39:25] down in Burbank and I got to go to the canteen, and that was just I [00:39:30] was like, I can’t.

Payman Langroudi: Believe it’s not even.

Anni Seaborne: It’s not free, but.

Payman Langroudi: Subsidised.

Anni Seaborne: A whole meal for £2.50. [00:39:35] And I was like piling up my plates and the best cookies and all of this. And I was like, this [00:39:40] is amazing. I’m a simple gal, but it’s. But it’s things like [00:39:45] that and I’m like it. Can you. It’s a shame, actually, because [00:39:50] you are just in this little small local practice. And if a lot of people, they are very content with that. But it’s [00:39:55] trying to be like, how can we be different?

Payman Langroudi: What’s really a shame is that I don’t know, were you at the [00:40:00] we were just talking about at the, um, private dentistry awards? Yes. Yeah. Me too. And [00:40:05] these amazing innovations for patients. Yeah. Beautiful practices. Coffee [00:40:10] on demand. You know, like. Yeah. Wonderful things that we’re doing for our patients. And yet [00:40:15] the back end, it’s.

Anni Seaborne: What are we doing for.

Payman Langroudi: Very, very similar. It hasn’t changed that much. [00:40:20] Yes. It’s changed. It’s changed since my day. It has. Yeah. Um, where they used to heat up their [00:40:25] lunch and the autoclave or something ridiculous like that. Yeah. But certainly. But. But it hasn’t changed enough. [00:40:30] No. When you consider how much things have changed for patients. Painless injections, [00:40:35] you know, digital everything. Yeah. Beautiful waiting rooms. Listen to [00:40:40] music and watch movies while you’re having your treatment done. You know, we’re really on to trying to make [00:40:45] the patient experience much better. Some some people are, but the staff experience [00:40:50] is lacking. It’s lacking.

Anni Seaborne: It is. And my view [00:40:55] is if you can empower and engage the staff, that ultimately leads to [00:41:00] better performance, better overall engagement. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I think [00:41:05] look, with notable exceptions. Yeah, there are there are places where people have a great time and love there. Yeah. [00:41:10] Yeah. It exists. It exists. And I guess that’s your whole job right now. Right now to make it like that.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, [00:41:15] that’s what I’m trying.

Payman Langroudi: But but it’s a funny thing, [00:41:20] you know, especially in medical. We seem to, I don’t know. It feels like your, [00:41:25] uh, boyfriend’s a doctor.

Anni Seaborne: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: The sacrifice of [00:41:30] the medic, the sacrifice that they make. It’s almost a whole system is running [00:41:35] on that sacrifice.

Anni Seaborne: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Like if they did. If they. If they worked my my brother’s a doctor. [00:41:40] If he worked to the letter of his contract and everyone did and all the nurses did.

Anni Seaborne: It wouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Run. The hospital [00:41:45] would just fall apart. Yeah. Like, why is that a thing? Why should it be like that?

Anni Seaborne: It’s [00:41:50] honestly the thing he. I know I’m probably biased, but he’s amazing. [00:41:55] He’s super intelligent, super hard working, really ambitious. Yet he’s [00:42:00] stuck in this system that doesn’t reward it at all. And he’s just service [00:42:05] provision. And he will do the extra hours and he will get to the [00:42:10] same end point at the same rate as the person next to him who has done the bare minimum. Um, [00:42:15] and it’s depressing. And he’s, he’s already looking at not not outs from the industry because he loves [00:42:20] he loves surgery. He absolutely adores when he’s actually operating. He’s an orthopaedic. [00:42:25] So he loves it when he’s operating. But everything else about [00:42:30] the system he despises and he’s and he’s also there was [00:42:35] probably about a year that he was like, oh, I’ll work out how to change it. I want to do a management course, I want to do [00:42:40] all of this. And then he was like, the reality is it’s not going to change, and I can’t do it because [00:42:45] I said I was like, well, why don’t you just speak up, do something like, because that’s what I do. I’m a bit mouthy and [00:42:50] I have an opinion. Um, and it’s because I care. Everything is because I care and I want [00:42:55] it to be better. Um, but he was like, you can’t with the NHS. Like, who’s going to listen? [00:43:00] What’s going to happen? And he’s now gone to what lots of other people have done and said he hasn’t left [00:43:05] the industry, but he’s already working out ways that he can do the minimum, his exit plan [00:43:10] once he’s done his consultancy exam and can [00:43:15] work out what to do because it’s not for him. It’s like, I don’t want to be a slave to the NHS because that’s what they are. They [00:43:20] are slaves to the system.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, echoes of that in NHS [00:43:25] dentistry too.

Anni Seaborne: Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There’s no doubt about that.

Anni Seaborne: I, I [00:43:30] have a small NHS contract, children’s only um, which is absolutely [00:43:35] fine, and I’m very lucky to have that. Um, but I originally joined Chelsea [00:43:40] with an NHS contract, and I struggled. I [00:43:45] really, really struggled. A lot of it was because I was on my own. It was a it’s basically, [00:43:50] well, it’s now fully private practice, but it was set up as a private practice with a small [00:43:55] NHS contract that I was doing on my own. Patients didn’t quite get it, so they’d have their [00:44:00] lovely coffee and all of that and then have high expectations. And [00:44:05] I just struggled with the service provision, trying to get the uda’s, um, [00:44:10] kind of done, whilst also we didn’t have amalgam in our practice, so I was having to do composite [00:44:15] for everything, which obviously takes a lot longer. Yeah. Um, and [00:44:20] it’s also that, I’ll be honest, there’s a bit of an ethical dilemma. A lot of the times I think dentists, every time [00:44:25] they’re treating a patient, it’s been like, am I upselling them a composite? Is it? I [00:44:30] think it’s in the back of your mind all the time. Can I do like, can I do an [00:44:35] amalgam or actually is a composite better. Is it one that I should be providing on the NHS or should I be? [00:44:40]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Doing that whole third party thing totally does my head in. I did my head in [00:44:45] the fact that I’ve got me and the patient and the situation. Yeah, that’s enough issues there. [00:44:50] Yeah. Right there. There’s enough issues to meet the patient and the situation, let alone a third party. Yeah. [00:44:55] Telling me what I can and can’t do or whatever. Rules and regulations. Right. Um, let’s [00:45:00] say we were going to fix it. Yeah. I’m not even going to bother asking you how [00:45:05] to fix, but, but but let’s imagine you wouldn’t do it like [00:45:10] this. You wouldn’t switch it off overnight. But let’s imagine we switched it off overnight. No NHS dentistry. Yeah. [00:45:15] None. Zero. Yeah. The 2.5% of healthcare [00:45:20] budget that’s going to NHS dentistry. Give back to people in their taxes. [00:45:25] Yeah. Now everyone pay for their dentistry. Yeah. It wouldn’t be that all practices [00:45:30] would be expensive private practices? No, there would be a range of private practices. Yeah, [00:45:35] there would be the independent ones, the cheaper ones. And then there’d still be the Harley Street ones and, [00:45:40] you know, the market would, would organise. Of course, you know, I’m not I’m not that [00:45:45] right wing to say, oh, markets solve everything. I’m not saying that. Yeah. Because things [00:45:50] like Dental insurance in jobs that we don’t my team do not have dental [00:45:55] insurance. They don’t. It’s not something they demand from their employer. But if there was [00:46:00] no NHS, maybe something like that would be part of the benefits of a job. Yeah. Do I get dental [00:46:05] like in America? Yeah, but my point is, at least you wouldn’t have the [00:46:10] the system that everyone agrees is broken. Everyone. I can’t find a single person. [00:46:15] I’ve had 250 people sit here. Yeah. I haven’t found a single person. Say, yeah, NHS [00:46:20] is working great. Yeah. Yeah, sure. Loads of patients are being treated. Yeah, [00:46:25] but I don’t know personally if a friend or family says they have a toothache. Yeah, [00:46:30] I do not advise. Go find yourself an NHS dentist. I do not. I do not. In fact, I expressly [00:46:35] go the other way. So definitely don’t go and see an NHS dentist. It’s just sad.

Anni Seaborne: It’s so [00:46:40] sad. And I also think the NHS and this is not just dentistry, [00:46:45] medical, everything has created this mentality that people aren’t willing to pay for healthcare as well. [00:46:50] And they they almost see private dentistry as an aesthetic option. [00:46:55] There’s a whole camp of people and then but the healthcare part is NHS and they expect it to [00:47:00] be free or heavily discounted. Yeah. And it’s crazy to me that people will [00:47:05] go get their nails done and for the same cost. You can go, as I said, not not super fancy. [00:47:10] Um, private practice, but just a standard private practice. Get a check up, look after your health of your [00:47:15] teeth, or you can go get your, I don’t know, your hair done. The cost of a filling [00:47:20] that’s lasting, hopefully at least ten years, whereas your hair is only going to last a couple of [00:47:25] months. Um, Um, and it’s a mindset thing. So if you almost removed it, people [00:47:30] would be like, okay, well we’re going to have to pay for it anyway. Yeah. Um, it’s like private doctors. [00:47:35] That’s the thing that really baffles me. When people are ill and they won’t, they’ll wait and they’ll moan and moan and moan and I’m like, [00:47:40] if £50 to go see a private GP. Yes, I know there could be a lot of extra [00:47:45] costs on top of it. Um, but I think it’s literally because of the NHS [00:47:50] option that people don’t value their healthcare. They almost think that healthcare is [00:47:55] free and they put no value on it.

Payman Langroudi: You know, in Holland, um, they it’s free. They’ve [00:48:00] got they’ve got an NHS version, but they give you the bill, they show you the bill.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. [00:48:05]

Payman Langroudi: You don’t pay it, but they show it to you. So you have a baby or something. They show [00:48:10] you the £6,000 that the Dutch health system spent.

Anni Seaborne: So they do that in Scotland actually, [00:48:15] because they’ve got a slightly higher fee per item, but they’ve got a cap and I think it’s around 300, approximately [00:48:20] 300 something pounds. So you’ll never pay more than that. But they’ll show you [00:48:25] the printout. How much more that actually it was fee per item properly. Yeah. This [00:48:30] is how much more it will cost.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s a funny thing man, [00:48:35] because it’s it’s health is now more funded than it’s ever been. It’s not like [00:48:40] it’s been unfunded defunded. Yeah. There’s more money going to health than it’s ever [00:48:45] gone before. And yet we sort of hark back and say, oh, now everything’s bankrupt. And, [00:48:50] you know, it’s a funny situation. The situation is the country can’t afford [00:48:55] free health care. No, you know, that’s the thing. And so things like what we’re saying [00:49:00] about people saving up for their kids braces, let’s say, or whatever, or [00:49:05] people having dental insurance or these that, that cultural change [00:49:10] has to happen in the same way as it did when I went to university. It was free. Yeah, [00:49:15] completely free. In fact, some people actually got money. They got grants. Yeah. [00:49:20] My guys.

Anni Seaborne: They made.

Payman Langroudi: Money. Yeah. One of the guys I was living with, he was getting he was getting money every, every month, [00:49:25] every term from the government. My mind was completely [00:49:30] free. Now, today, you know.

Anni Seaborne: 45,000 to do a dental degree.

Payman Langroudi: Right? Yeah. [00:49:35] You pay and people understand that that, you know, they get it. Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: You accept.

Payman Langroudi: It. So so society [00:49:40] can change in that way. Another sort of bugbear I’ve got I know what you think about this [00:49:45] is we’ve got the best of everything here, but the average is very low. So [00:49:50] you want the best food?

Anni Seaborne: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Around one mile away from here, you can get the [00:49:55] best food in the world. Yeah. But if you walk into a random place.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. You [00:50:00] don’t know what you’re getting.

Payman Langroudi: The best university in the world. We have them, right? Oxford and Cambridge. Yeah. Or [00:50:05] the best schools. We’ve got the best schools in the world. You walk into a random school? Yeah, the quality of that. And [00:50:10] it’s. It’s almost the way the country’s set up. Yeah. Is that it has both [00:50:15] ends. But not the middle.

Anni Seaborne: But not the middle. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: You know, and then you get the other way. The [00:50:20] the Scandinavian countries. Well, it’s only in the middle.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:50:25] and I was talking to my Swedish, uh, distributor, and somebody came up, somebody [00:50:30] said there’s a private members club or something, and he went, what’s that? And I said, it’s [00:50:35] a place where you pay to to be a member. Yeah. And he said, look, in Sweden, if [00:50:40] you mentioned that, everyone would just take the piss out of you, everyone would think you’re. It’s ridiculous. No [00:50:45] one would want to go to a place like that. Yeah. And so. So you know what I mean? Like the culture [00:50:50] of elite and and and the bottom. And nothing in the middle sets up the [00:50:55] way the country ends up.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. And I think we feed into that almost a little bit, as in the, [00:51:00] the Dental industry, you’re seeing a lot more show, a lot more glam, which I think is great. [00:51:05] But you’re definitely then creating this elite and once again, you’re kind of disassociating it [00:51:10] from healthcare. Yeah. Again, which it has its place. And I’m not going to say [00:51:15] no like no to it, but it does. I said create that disparity even [00:51:20] more because it’s almost.

Payman Langroudi: Perpetuates.

Anni Seaborne: It. Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about two things [00:51:25] I noticed you’re involved with that.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah I am. So, um. Lovely. [00:51:30] Chemik, the founder of tooth Angel. He was actually on my sports dentistry course.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, he did it too. [00:51:35]

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, he did it too. Oh, really? Um, he loves Liverpool Football [00:51:40] Club.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah, he does, he does, he does. Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: I think that was his driver. Really?

Payman Langroudi: He just loves to be their [00:51:45] dentist.

Anni Seaborne: Even though he’s nowhere near Liverpool. Sham. Sham I know. Bless [00:51:50] him. But he, um, he came to me last year with this opportunity or maybe at the beginning [00:51:55] of the year, um, to be involved with them as one of their kind of founding investors. [00:52:00] And I think it’s great. I mean, sustainability is the future that also premium [00:52:05] products that have been tested and the other people, um, who are kind of part [00:52:10] of the the Fab 11, I think he calls us or something fabulous [00:52:15] or something like that. I probably got it wrong. Magnificent 11. The the kind of founders. [00:52:20] Founding investors. Yeah. The angels. Exactly. Shams. Angels. Yeah. Um, [00:52:25] they were all such amazing people that I’ve, like, looked up to. And I was like, well, [00:52:30] this opportunity to be involved with a brand that is. I said, we know it’s good quality products [00:52:35] and really good for the environment. I thought it was an awesome opportunity. Um, and it’s been great [00:52:40] to be involved, and it’s another kind of opportunity to learn how the business works. This this is more like product related. [00:52:45] Um, did you.

Payman Langroudi: Invest cash?

Anni Seaborne: Yes I did.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re part owner [00:52:50] of the.

Anni Seaborne: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, interesting.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. Um, I’m the small owner because I [00:52:55] only had a small amount of money. But he let me in anyway. Um, [00:53:00] but. Yeah. So. Yeah. So I’ve invested in it because I genuinely think.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:53:05] of him paying you to be the the key opinion leader. You paid him? I know right?

Anni Seaborne: I [00:53:10] know he’s making.

Anni Seaborne: Me work hard for it as well to get my cash back.

Payman Langroudi: So go on, explain it. What [00:53:15] is it for people? Someone who doesn’t know what tooth Angel is.

Anni Seaborne: So premium oral health care products. So we’ve got [00:53:20] toothpaste, floss, mouth spray and toothbrush. Um, but with huge [00:53:25] sustainability angle. So everything has been really thought through, um, with [00:53:30] kind of backed research. So for example, our toothbrush, it’s a manual toothbrush, plastic [00:53:35] handle, um, which the idea is you keep for life and then you can replace the heads because it’s the heads are the reason [00:53:40] that you need to get rid of them. So it’s replaceable heads that you can then recycle and you keep the hands [00:53:45] up for life. And the reason we’ve gone with manual, um, is because actually we found that even if [00:53:50] you own electric toothbrush, at no point saying don’t use an electric toothbrush, but we found, well, [00:53:55] one, I think I can’t remember the exact figure, but something like 52% of people still use manual as [00:54:00] their primary toothbrush, and pretty much everyone who has an electric [00:54:05] will still have a manual in their house or to travel with or anything like that. So that’s kind of the [00:54:10] idea. And the idea is that you just have one full life and just replace the heads. Um, floss is made from recycled [00:54:15] water bottles. Um, and that’s honestly, I think the [00:54:20] hero product, um, toothpaste. Uh, he’s sham has worked really hard [00:54:25] with the toothpaste. Scott. Hydroxyapatite in it. Fluoride. It’s got all the good stuff. None of the bad stuff. Um, [00:54:30] and the toothpaste tubes are made of, um, sugar cane, so [00:54:35] they can be completely recycled as well. And then there’s a nice little mouth spray in a glass bottle, which. [00:54:40]

Payman Langroudi: Hydroxyapatite and fluoride in the toothpaste makes bind together to fluorapatite. [00:54:45]

Anni Seaborne: Um.

Payman Langroudi: In the, in the tube. And hence when you put it on the tooth, it [00:54:50] doesn’t bind to fluorapatite. You know, fluoride.

Anni Seaborne: Said the wrong.

Anni Seaborne: Thing.

Anni Seaborne: No, no. [00:54:55]

Payman Langroudi: It’s, uh, we have the same problem. Yeah. Um, so maybe he’s got a nano [00:55:00] form of hydroxy.

Anni Seaborne: I should know this. I should.

Anni Seaborne: Ask Chad, get sham on and get him to [00:55:05] deep dive into.

Anni Seaborne: This before I stick my foot.

Payman Langroudi: In it. I said the wrong thing.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:55:10] know we got the exact same problem [00:55:15] with that black one over there. Yes. Fluoride and hydroxyapatite. Um, but it’s problematic, [00:55:20] right? Because you want to put hydroxyapatite in a toothpaste. But if you don’t put fluoride in the [00:55:25] toothpaste, no dentist will buy it.

Anni Seaborne: He is. I think he’s planning on creating a fluoride free one.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:55:30] are we. So we could now.

Payman Langroudi: Now. Suddenly, now the fastest growing area in [00:55:35] oral care. Um, so that’d be much easier, I think. The nightmares we went through just to get fluoride [00:55:40] into this tube. Yeah. Um, but it didn’t make sense. Like 14 [00:55:45] years ago when we brought that out. No way would you have put a toothpaste out to dentists that. [00:55:50]

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Have fluoride.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s one of the funny things about products. Products [00:55:55] are so difficult. So hard.

Anni Seaborne: Well, I’ve said I’m lucky that he’d already kind of developed them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:56:00] yeah, yeah.

Anni Seaborne: But it is. Yeah. It’s hard to get it right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And the problem with products is you [00:56:05] have so many hundreds of thousands of them to get anywhere. Yeah. You know, it’s the opposite of, you know, [00:56:10] the orthodontist. And she was saying, yeah, 100 patients, 100 new patients a [00:56:15] year is wonderful for an orthodontist. Yeah. You can run a massive ortho business with [00:56:20] 100 patients a year. It’s not the case with £10.

Payman Langroudi: Products.

Payman Langroudi: Or.

Payman Langroudi: £6 products. Right? Exactly. [00:56:25]

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about. Let’s get to a darker part.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Errors. [00:56:30]

Anni Seaborne: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: We like to talk about clinical errors so that [00:56:35] we can learn from each other’s errors. When I say clinical errors [00:56:40] what comes to mind.

Anni Seaborne: Ah I was having a think about this. [00:56:45] And I mean obviously I’ve made loads of errors. I regularly look at composites [00:56:50] I’ve done and be like, oh, this is embarrassing. Especially the more magnification loops I get. I’m [00:56:55] like, oh no, that was me that put that in. Um, the one [00:57:00] that I think has stuck with me most actually is a facial aesthetics error. Um, because that [00:57:05] kind of almost unfolded in real time with a customer and unhappy customer. And when [00:57:10] you’re mixing up Botox, Botox comes as a powder and you mix it up with saline [00:57:15] and you’re meant to mix up with bacteriostatic saline. And this was I was probably like a month or two into [00:57:20] my job at the the Facial Aesthetics Clinic, and I was covering actually in a different [00:57:25] clinic to the one that was kind of my home base, and it was a Saturday, so no one there was [00:57:30] kind of no help. And at this point I was like, okay, I’m good at Botox. I’ve got this. And I went in and they didn’t [00:57:35] have the standard bacteriostatic saline that I was used to. And so I was looking around and then [00:57:40] I found this like big box of water for injection. Right. And um, so I was like, [00:57:45] maybe this is it. I didn’t really know enough about it. Um, and I was like, well, it’s water [00:57:50] for injection. It must be safe to inject probably. That’s it. It says saline on it. It’ll [00:57:55] be fine. So I mix that up. What I didn’t realise is that that causes, um, [00:58:00] stinging. Right. So the reason you get bacteriostatic is so you don’t feel it. I’ve then [00:58:05] got this, um, American lady come in. She’s had it for years. She knows exactly what it’s [00:58:10] meant to feel like I’m covering. So it’s not her normal clinician.

Payman Langroudi: She’s the perfect. [00:58:15]

Payman Langroudi: Storm.

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t it? Yeah. Perfect storm.

Anni Seaborne: I’m in a clinic that I first time I’ve been in.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:58:20] nurse didn’t turn up.

Anni Seaborne: So then I start mixing it all up like [00:58:25] this. Fine. Looks exactly the same. Just a little see through solution. Start injecting [00:58:30] her. She’s like, oh. And then I’ve, like, I’ve gone in. I think I’ve done her frown. So five injections [00:58:35] and she just loses it. She’s like, I’m stinging, I’m burning. What have [00:58:40] you done? Like, this is not what it meant to feel like. Like she’s in tears. I’m [00:58:45] there being like, I have no idea what I’ve done at this point. Um, I was [00:58:50] like, have I done the anatomy wrong? Like, what is the need? Is it all of that? And then I was like, oh, it [00:58:55] must be that. But then how do I tell someone there I’m not experienced? I’m only two months in, um, [00:59:00] and even two months in, it’s only kind of three days a week with a lot of it still kind of being the ongoing [00:59:05] training. There’s no one around me. The practice manager is trying to help me calm down the situation, because [00:59:10] I’ve got someone in physical pain that’s not meant to be in pain. Luckily, the stinging goes away. Um, [00:59:15] how long it only lasted? Kind of. Yeah. [00:59:20] If that. Um. But obviously she knows something’s not right. There’s no way of hiding [00:59:25] it. I haven’t got a clue what I’ve done wrong, but I know luckily it didn’t affect [00:59:30] anything clinically. Luckily did not affect anything. It worked. We only did [00:59:35] have found she didn’t do the rest. And understand. What did.

Payman Langroudi: You say?

Payman Langroudi: So what did she say to you?

Anni Seaborne: So [00:59:40] I just was like, well, I blamed the product being like, oh, I don’t know, how about you kind [00:59:45] of come back, we’ll review it. Um, it wasn’t until the [00:59:50] Monday when I’d kind of spoken to the clinical leader that they explained what would happen. They were like, don’t panic. It’s [00:59:55] fine. We can diffuse it. Um, luckily, she didn’t have a reaction or anything after that, [01:00:00] but I just remember being there when someone you’ve literally inflicted pain on someone [01:00:05] I hadn’t got a clue I was. It’s not like I’ve made a mistake. I’ve made clinical mistakes. I’d be like, oh, I should have done [01:00:10] that instead. This one, I was like, I have no idea what’s going on. And someone is currently burning [01:00:15] up in front of me and I’m 23 years old. No one else. [01:00:20] There’s no one else clinical in the building either. There was no other clinician [01:00:25] at.

Payman Langroudi: All that stopped.

Payman Langroudi: Hurting. You thought it might be something awful?

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, I was like, I don’t [01:00:30] know what.

Payman Langroudi: She’s going to have, like a reaction or.

Anni Seaborne: Something. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: God. [01:00:35]

Payman Langroudi: And, um, I think that’s the one that’s.

Anni Seaborne: Really scarred me because, as I said, I couldn’t. You [01:00:40] can’t hide from it. You’re there. And I said, luckily it wasn’t actually a clinical mistake. I didn’t cause anything. [01:00:45] But it’s one of those.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a good one, though. I like that.

Payman Langroudi: One.

Anni Seaborne: Things that, as I [01:00:50] said, everything.

Payman Langroudi: I like that.

Payman Langroudi: One.

Anni Seaborne: I was in tears afterwards. [01:00:55] It was.

Payman Langroudi: You. I bet.

Payman Langroudi: You were. Yeah, it was.

Anni Seaborne: Traumatic, to say.

Payman Langroudi: The least. [01:01:00]

Payman Langroudi: Did the patient complain?

Anni Seaborne: Luckily didn’t. Um, she complained [01:01:05] at the time, and it was kind of diffused with the manager and just brought back in. [01:01:10] Saw her regular clinician. I think we explained that it was a I don’t know [01:01:15] whether we blamed that. It was like a faulty.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: I can’t remember exactly [01:01:20] what happened. But she did she obviously complained at the time but didn’t do a follow up because I think as I said, [01:01:25] the product worked and actually she didn’t have any reactions from it. Um, but at the [01:01:30] time she was not happy, understandably.

Payman Langroudi: It’s really good to get someone like you to [01:01:35] say something like that. You know, it’s really.

Payman Langroudi: Good.

Payman Langroudi: Because on the outside you look like such a superb, [01:01:40] superb. Like everything’s going right for you. You know, it’s one of the things [01:01:45] about social media, right? It’s a highlight.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Highlight reel.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, no one’s stupid enough to think your [01:01:50] life is this blessed thing. Yeah. But on on that front, what are you really bad at?

Anni Seaborne: Um, [01:01:55] I. What [01:02:00] am I bad at? I things [01:02:05] that I don’t like, I don’t I try to avoid situations that I am kind [01:02:10] of bad at. I’m very good at asking for help, so I have to manage [01:02:15] to twist that into something I’m very good at.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What [01:02:20] am I like?

Payman Langroudi: Like a, like an interview question? Why didn’t they ask you when you went for that job? What’s [01:02:25] your biggest weakness?

Anni Seaborne: Well, my biggest weakness is they.

Payman Langroudi: Did you [01:02:30] say you got the job? I know, I know, I [01:02:35] care.

Payman Langroudi: Too.

Payman Langroudi: Much.

Payman Langroudi: But.

Anni Seaborne: I [01:02:40] do. You know what that probably is? That actually I hold on to things until someone says no. Um, [01:02:45] and I probably get into a bit of a tunnel on something.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:02:50] as in, as in you, you don’t give up on stuff even after [01:02:55] you really should.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: I will keep persevering.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: And sometimes [01:03:00] I probably waste time.

Payman Langroudi: Because.

Payman Langroudi: Perseverance is a great skill, man. It’s an important skill.

Anni Seaborne: But I think sometimes [01:03:05] I.

Payman Langroudi: Waste some time.

Anni Seaborne: Doing it and which. But I’ve said that to people, and like I [01:03:10] tell me no, if you tell me no, I’ll stop. But if you don’t, if you don’t say it explicitly, I [01:03:15] will keep hammering on. And I get very emotive about things. [01:03:20] And I think sometimes it’s I’m proud of my emotions and I’m proud that I’m very purpose [01:03:25] driven, and I hold a lot of value to things, and I will keep going [01:03:30] and kind of fight for things. But I think sometimes that can almost cloud my [01:03:35] judgement a little bit. Is my emotions on right and [01:03:40] wrong and I need.

Payman Langroudi: Your biggest strength is always your biggest weakness as [01:03:45] well. You know, it ends up.

Payman Langroudi: It’s.

Anni Seaborne: What’s got me, it’s what’s got me here. But I also think it’s now finding [01:03:50] a balance.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just that.

Payman Langroudi: You can say, oh, Annie is super kind.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Amazing. [01:03:55] Sounds amazing. But then sometimes, I don’t know, one day you might need to fire someone. And [01:04:00] you’re so.

Payman Langroudi: Kind.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t have.

Payman Langroudi: That.

Payman Langroudi: Conversation, you know? And suddenly your biggest strength is your biggest [01:04:05] weakness. What else are you bad at?

Anni Seaborne: What else?

Payman Langroudi: My line of questioning.

Anni Seaborne: What [01:04:10] do you know? Do you know what was interesting? I did a talk at Sheffield University and [01:04:15] to their students. And I did my classic. Like, this is where everything I do. [01:04:20] Look at all my accomplishments. And then I was like, what’s what’s not on here is everything I’ve done badly. [01:04:25] And this sounds ridiculous. I, I put a lot of [01:04:30] weight at university on sport. That was my focus was playing lacrosse. That’s real. Dentistry was like a side [01:04:35] of it. But really I was there to train. I wanted to make World Cup. I never made a single major championship. [01:04:40] So with all my caps for Wales, I never made a championship. And to me, that’s [01:04:45] the biggest failure because that was my purpose. I could have probably got away with not graduating dental school and been better, like [01:04:50] more at peace with that than the fact that I never.

Payman Langroudi: Was [01:04:55] good enough.

Payman Langroudi: That it takes right.

Anni Seaborne: To do it. And the reality was I was never good enough. It’s not. At no point [01:05:00] did I think I earned a spot. I deserved a spot over someone else that got selected. [01:05:05] I could look at the team and be like, I don’t. I’m not better than any of you.

Payman Langroudi: And that is that hard [01:05:10] to face.

Anni Seaborne: That is hard to face. And I think and the worst bit is when I had my big [01:05:15] injury, I it happened as I was at a position that I was like, [01:05:20] I am better, I deserve to be on this team. And a lot of people said I was like, you’ve improved [01:05:25] so much. You’re like, you deserve. And I had I had caps for the team. But it was always that kind of the [01:05:30] equivalent of the Six Nations like Home Counties, but never at a major championship. And I was going to make euros [01:05:35] like I was not a dead cert, but this was my year.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And [01:05:40] that’s.

Payman Langroudi: When the injury.

Payman Langroudi: Happened.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. And then I was out for two and a half years.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what was.

Payman Langroudi: The.

Payman Langroudi: Injury? [01:05:45]

Anni Seaborne: It did everything to my leg. You could possibly do ACL, fractured it. Um, meniscus. [01:05:50] Everything went um. And then I’d had three operations to get back at it.

Payman Langroudi: Wow. [01:05:55]

Payman Langroudi: So in one incident.

Anni Seaborne: In one incident? Yeah, it was a trauma.

Payman Langroudi: In a game. During a.

Payman Langroudi: Game?

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. [01:06:00] Both jumping up for the ball landed. And as I was, like, full extension [01:06:05] landed, someone fell on me, so it just snapped everything.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Anni Seaborne: So.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:06:10] is it like, is that the kind of injury you can’t, you can’t come back from? Is it like that?

Anni Seaborne: I tried.

Payman Langroudi: And I. [01:06:15]

Anni Seaborne: Still play, but I couldn’t. Yeah, I tried coming back to the international [01:06:20] setup and I was just a step behind everyone. And when you when you know you’re a step behind and [01:06:25] I’m a defender so I can’t be a step behind because then I’m not very good at my job. So that’s something I’m bad at now. But [01:06:30] is when when you know you’re not there. And also, I just got to a point where I couldn’t commit [01:06:35] the extra hours to maybe get get there. I couldn’t do that to myself, [01:06:40] um, because there was a lot and my career was building and I was doing all of that. [01:06:45] And Covid happened just as I was about to kind of make my comeback, so that delayed it a little [01:06:50] bit more. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And so then you’re kind of redefining yourself as this [01:06:55] other person and the one that you thought you were going to be.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:07:00]

Anni Seaborne: I honestly, my purpose for so long was sport and dentistry [01:07:05] just funded it.

Payman Langroudi: And so that was your flip into like, now I’m gonna focus [01:07:10] on dentistry.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, I’m gonna focus on something and I’ve got that drive. I’m competitive [01:07:15] as hell. And that’s probably when my emotions come too much. Like, I am very competitive and I’m very like, [01:07:20] I want to be the best and I want to do the best. And, um, I [01:07:25] think that’s why I’ve kind of just thrown myself into everything [01:07:30] I do now, because I don’t have that sport side of me. And I said, I still I still dabble in it. I play club [01:07:35] and keep that up. But I don’t get that fulfilment from being good at [01:07:40] it anymore.

Payman Langroudi: Do you remember a time where you weren’t competitive [01:07:45] and like no, always, always [01:07:50] like sibling rivalry or that sort of thing is.

Payman Langroudi: That I.

Anni Seaborne: Even I remember at school [01:07:55] this once again still triggers me a little bit. Is at school [01:08:00] in sixth form. I didn’t get Head Girl and I actually [01:08:05] went and asked for feedback and they said you were the two obvious choice, but it’s because I’d done everything [01:08:10] in my life to be that obvious choice.

Payman Langroudi: Too obvious.

Payman Langroudi: Choice?

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, too obvious a choice.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. [01:08:15]

Anni Seaborne: And I was like, but I have purposely done everything to [01:08:20] do that. I’ve played sport. I had.

Payman Langroudi: Um, how did you take [01:08:25] that music? Weird thing to say to obvious. So [01:08:30] who.

Payman Langroudi: Got it? Like the super cool.

Payman Langroudi: Photographer.

Payman Langroudi: Chick? [01:08:35]

Payman Langroudi: Uh.

Anni Seaborne: I can’t.

Payman Langroudi: Remember. It was.

Anni Seaborne: Two girls. No, they were both. I mean, one [01:08:40] went on to do classics at Oxford, and.

Payman Langroudi: The other one.

Anni Seaborne: Was like, yeah, they’re both amazing ladies, [01:08:45] but I remember that was the feedback I got and I was just like, oh, okay. But that’s [01:08:50] my drive is because I was like, I want to.

Payman Langroudi: So along the same lines of do your biggest strength is your biggest [01:08:55] weakness, what is the real downside of being super competitive? We’re kind of getting into it now, right? Is it [01:09:00] is it tiring?

Anni Seaborne: It’s frustrating. Frustrating because [01:09:05] I don’t I hold myself to high level. I hold other people to a high level.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:09:10]

Anni Seaborne: Um, and sometimes that’s not fair on other people.

Payman Langroudi: People disappoint you.

Anni Seaborne: People [01:09:15] disappoint me all the time.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Anni Seaborne: Um. And I. [01:09:20] Yeah. I say people disappoint me all the time. I get frustrated by people all the time. [01:09:25] Um, and because I don’t understand why they don’t have why I say [01:09:30] I’m learning to understand why people don’t have the same drive as me and the same purpose. [01:09:35] And I probably, as I said, once again, I’m too emotive with it and I’m too driven with this and I [01:09:40] don’t understand why other people Don’t feel so strongly about [01:09:45] it, but actually they’re just doing their job.

Payman Langroudi: So it must be frustrating how slow stuff must [01:09:50] move in a huge company like Bupa that must really get to you yet.

Anni Seaborne: I’ve learnt how to deal [01:09:55] with it. It was hard at the start. If I’m completely honest. But I also get their reasoning [01:10:00] and it’s an insurance company at heart, so they are very risk [01:10:05] averse. So everything has to be done properly. But then the perks of it is that if it’s done and it does [01:10:10] go through you, you probably have a good product. You probably have a good system in place when. [01:10:15]

Payman Langroudi: Eventually it gets there.

Anni Seaborne: Because it’s been so rigorously checked out and [01:10:20] gone through every single kind of forum and committee and being kind [01:10:25] of.

Payman Langroudi: You know, from, from the sporting analogy, I feel like that’s defence [01:10:30] kind of way of acting, whereas a lot of times your ideas [01:10:35] offence ideas, you know, and you can’t, you can’t go into a thing with a defence [01:10:40] mindset and expect the same outcome as you’re going with it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: And [01:10:45] I think that’s where we’re changing. And I think that’s where Marc is doing a really.

Payman Langroudi: Fantastic.

Anni Seaborne: Job is actually like pivoting [01:10:50] everything. And that’s.

Payman Langroudi: What’s cool. He’s cool.

Payman Langroudi: He’s a cool.

Payman Langroudi: Dude. Yeah, [01:10:55] I’m.

Anni Seaborne: Trying to kind of support him and be a bit more out there. Learn what other people are doing. Um, [01:11:00] so we’re not just stuck in our corporate ways. Yes, we are going to be limited. Our hands are tied [01:11:05] to a certain extent because also everything we do, it’s not like we can roll out for one practice. It’s for [01:11:10] nearly 400 practices. So, um, but I think we are trying [01:11:15] to change things up, um, and be a bit more forward thinking, be a bit more proactive. [01:11:20] And as I said, be a bit more offensive. Um, but yes, you [01:11:25] are right. There’s always going to be a defensive element to it.

Payman Langroudi: And clinically, how many [01:11:30] days are you drilling? Are you drilling less now that you’ve got this job?

Payman Langroudi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So how many days do you drill? Days and [01:11:35] one day full time?

Anni Seaborne: Two days.

Payman Langroudi: Full time?

Payman Langroudi: Two times. Two days. Full time on the Bupa. [01:11:40] Yeah, on the corporate thing. So what happens on those two days?

Anni Seaborne: Two days. [01:11:45] Um, so a lot of it strategy, um, advising. So a lot of calls with [01:11:50] smaller groups. So for example marketing team, finance team, pricing team. And they’ll just pick your [01:11:55] brains, they’ll normally come to you saying.

Payman Langroudi: They need a clinical in all of those situations.

Anni Seaborne: That’s the idea. Yep. So [01:12:00] it’s being like this is what we’re doing. We’re just going to run it past you. What are your thoughts? [01:12:05] Any immediate red flags? Anything you would advise changing? Um, so [01:12:10] a lot of it is that and then we’ve got our own kind of little personal projects that we push through and work with [01:12:15] the operations team. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And what do.

Payman Langroudi: You mean, what.

Payman Langroudi: Does.

Payman Langroudi: That mean? You’re [01:12:20] allowed to do a project of your own.

Anni Seaborne: Um, well, if we think that there’s something. Yeah, if there’s something that we [01:12:25] feel would benefit, for example, like CPD or anything like that, we’re like, actually, do you know, we [01:12:30] think this would benefit the community and it hasn’t been thought about.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: We [01:12:35] can kind of present it and try and get the ball rolling. With that. It’s a little bit harder because starting a project from [01:12:40] scratch, um, but we have that opportunity.

Payman Langroudi: To do that.

Payman Langroudi: So you I mean, [01:12:45] obviously you can say what you think, but then do you then go to a bunch of clinicians and kind [01:12:50] of feel out your ideas or their ideas?

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, exactly. So I spend a lot of time kind of on the ground [01:12:55] practice visits, chatting to people. So I was up in Scotland a couple of weeks ago, um.

Payman Langroudi: Try [01:13:00] and get the rugby thing.

Anni Seaborne: Uh, so I tied it in with that, but I was, I spent two days actually [01:13:05] going around practices in Scotland just meeting everyone. Um, and [01:13:10] yeah, just hearing voices and understanding because I’ve got my [01:13:15] lived experience and my view. But I’m also highly aware I’m now in a private practice in Chelsea. And [01:13:20] the reality is it’s not the same as a fully NHS practice in Newcastle, for example. [01:13:25] So how am I meant to represent that if I don’t know what’s going on?

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Anni Seaborne: So a lot of [01:13:30] it is just having conversations. And I said a lot of it tends to be the common themes of just [01:13:35] give me a good support team and a chair that works, [01:13:40] and a surgery that works and they’re happy. But sometimes there are bigger issues that aren’t [01:13:45] necessarily operational that I can say like, okay, how can we look at this, take a step back, and [01:13:50] what can we do to support you? Or what can we do to kind of evolve Bupa [01:13:55] to make it kind of fit what you what you need? Basically.

Payman Langroudi: How much do you [01:14:00] enjoy the the corporate side more than the clinical side? Or is it the fact that there is a [01:14:05] mix or in your ideal world, would you go up the next stage in the ladder [01:14:10] and do less, less clinical?

Anni Seaborne: I think if I’m honest, I would actually you asked me what I’m bad at. I’m not as [01:14:15] I’m not bad at it, but I’m not as good as clinically as I’d want to be. And, um. [01:14:20]

Payman Langroudi: But.

Payman Langroudi: You’re really enjoying the.

Payman Langroudi: Other side.

Anni Seaborne: I’m really enjoying the other side. And I [01:14:25] am lucky to have it be in a position that I feel like I can make a difference. And I said my my underlying [01:14:30] purpose, I guess, is I want the industry just to be a nicer [01:14:35] place and be a better place for everyone. Not just dentists, not just clinicians, but everyone. Um, [01:14:40] and this job. Yes. I can’t change the industry, but I can slowly [01:14:45] try and change those within Bupa, um, to create a better environment [01:14:50] for everyone. And I’m enjoying having that as a purpose. Whereas I’ll be honest, my purpose [01:14:55] isn’t teeth. Um, and it’s probably clear from the off. Like I said, I’d [01:15:00] rather played sport than done this. Um, and I don’t [01:15:05] love teeth. I don’t love the science of [01:15:10] it. Like, I want to do good by my patients. So I make sure that I do the best I can. [01:15:15] But that’s kind of a self-driven look.

Payman Langroudi: Once you stop fully, fully [01:15:20] stop like I did, you realise what it was that you liked and what it was that you didn’t like? Yeah, and [01:15:25] I certainly didn’t like the Meccano carpentry side of dentistry at all, like, you know, all well [01:15:30] and good. Yeah, but that wasn’t what what I enjoyed was the people.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I.

Anni Seaborne: Love the. [01:15:35]

Payman Langroudi: People.

Payman Langroudi: And and so the dentistry is a mix of these people and, and many [01:15:40] other things that some people really enjoy. The treatment planning.

Payman Langroudi: Piece. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which again, I didn’t particularly enjoy [01:15:45] but but you know, I was never a good dentist. I was just, you know, but people I do miss [01:15:50] badly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t meet people. Meet dentists.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:15:55] that’s where you’re kind of going in that direction, too?

Payman Langroudi: Yes. And I do want [01:16:00] to keep.

Anni Seaborne: I know I’m not planning on giving up my clinical anytime soon. I’ve got so much to learn, and I can’t. [01:16:05] Also, I can’t do my job if I’m not doing clinical, I can’t.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right. That’s right. That is that is who you are in that [01:16:10] team.

Anni Seaborne: I can’t.

Payman Langroudi: Be.

Anni Seaborne: Advocating for the coalface if I’m not actually doing it myself. [01:16:15]

Payman Langroudi: Just to say you were going to go to the next rung in the ladder. What’s next? What [01:16:20] what where would you go next? What would be the next move would be?

Anni Seaborne: I don’t know, work my [01:16:25] way up to the board. I don’t know I don’t know what that would look like. I don’t I don’t know what I’m good [01:16:30] at and I don’t know what I don’t know yet. So I’m still early on. I know I’m doing probably [01:16:35] a lot better than a lot of. I think people are surprised when I say I’m the head of general dentistry. Yeah. [01:16:40] Um, at Bupa. But I’ve got a lot to learn [01:16:45] still about how everything works. And I’m learning on the job. Um, I [01:16:50] think I’m lucky that this job is very much just being a voice of the people and that I can do, um, and [01:16:55] I’ve told I’ve. I mean, I’ve been very open about it. It’s like, oh, I’d want to be CEO, [01:17:00] but that’s a ten, 15, 20 year plan. However long I need to take to be good [01:17:05] at it. I don’t just want to tick boxes. Um, and I don’t [01:17:10] know what I don’t know, so I don’t know how to get there. And I’m being open about it now with everyone that I meet because [01:17:15] I’m like, I, if you can tell me something, you can give me a nugget that I can learn and [01:17:20] that’ll get me there bit quicker or that’ll get me there in the right will point me in the right direction. Um, because [01:17:25] I said, I want to be able to make a difference. And I’m lucky. I’ve already got a platform [01:17:30] to do that. And if I could do that on a bigger scale in healthcare, um, that’d [01:17:35] be amazing. And to have that opportunity be incredible. But everything I want to do, I want to be good [01:17:40] at it, and I want to be in that position because I’m good at it. So.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so.

Payman Langroudi: Have you ruled [01:17:45] out, for instance, opening your own practice, things like that?

Payman Langroudi: No.

Anni Seaborne: Um, [01:17:50] I don’t have the capacity right now. Um, because I am still learning, [01:17:55] and I’m focusing on that. Um, but, no, I get bored [01:18:00] easily. So, um, I know at a point, [01:18:05] if I’m coasting at anything and I don’t plan on coasting because I’m hoping, but if I’m not being stimulated in some [01:18:10] way, I will look to do something else. Um, if I [01:18:15] can do them simultaneously. Because also like alongside obviously helping Shan with tooth Angel, I’m [01:18:20] doing this. I, um, have also got another business [01:18:25] that I’m setting up, which is launching next year, which is a product business which you’ve made me really [01:18:30] nervous about now.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll do that. So we’ll talk later. [01:18:35]

Anni Seaborne: So, um, so yeah, that’s looking at kind of linking [01:18:40] sport and aesthetic and doing like an SPF for athletes. Um, business [01:18:45] that’s launching next year. So I’ve got that in the pipeline as well. Um, doing my [01:18:50] own sports dentistry course, um, which will hopefully be launching soon to kind of make it a bit more accessible for people [01:18:55] who want to.

Payman Langroudi: I bet.

Payman Langroudi: There’ll be loads and loads of people who want to do.

Payman Langroudi: That.

Anni Seaborne: I hope so.

Payman Langroudi: I bet.

Payman Langroudi: There.

Payman Langroudi: Will be. It’s definitely [01:19:00] interesting.

Anni Seaborne: Um, I want to make it easy because at the moment you’ve only been able to get it through like [01:19:05] the academic UCL pathway, which, by the way, is an incredible, incredible course. And the lecturers are, are [01:19:10] the. Yeah. Um, John and Peter, the lecturers, they’re amazing. Um, but [01:19:15] I wanted kind of a more accessible, why not version of it. Um, [01:19:20] and it’s going to be predominantly online platform. Um, because as you said earlier, [01:19:25] it’s I’m not teaching anything, anyone, anything new. It’s more the thought process [01:19:30] behind it and kind of applying everyday dentistry to athletes. Um, [01:19:35] so yeah, so I’ve got that in the pipeline as well. Um, I’ve [01:19:40] got a lot going on. But the way I think about it is like if I was a high flying lawyer and I’ve got so many law [01:19:45] based friends, they’re doing stupid hours.

Payman Langroudi: So, yeah, I.

Anni Seaborne: Like the hours I do are nothing compared [01:19:50] to what they do. Um, so it’s not that impressive, [01:19:55] really.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very.

Payman Langroudi: Impressive. It’s very impressive. It’s good [01:20:00] to see. It’s good to see your enthusiasm. And long may it continue. You know, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: What I hope sometimes.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:20:05] know, life can deflates people. And that’s a shame. You know I don’t think that’s going to happen to you. [01:20:10] But it can happen.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. No, I think.

Anni Seaborne: I’m feeling kind of more positive. I’m feeling [01:20:15] because everything’s going well at the moment and I’m sure I’m going to have absolute dips. I know that, and there’s going [01:20:20] to be times when I’m going to be overwhelmed. But right now, life is. Well, I’m very privileged. I’m very grateful. [01:20:25] Um, so I’ve just got to make the most of it really amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get [01:20:30] to our final question. Really enjoyed it. Um, fantasy dinner party. [01:20:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests, dead or.

Payman Langroudi: Alive? Yes.

Anni Seaborne: Um, [01:20:40] first would be Nelson Mandela. So I was in Mozambique [01:20:45] around the time that apartheid was ending. And it was even though I was young, [01:20:50] it was a big thing. Also, my parents, like my dad’s white, my mum’s, um, Malaysian. [01:20:55] And they were feeling it and I noticed that they felt it. Um, so I’d love to [01:21:00] learn a bit bit more about that and also his resilience and his leadership, and said he [01:21:05] was purpose driven and motive and stuck to his gardens and [01:21:10] just an amazing person. So I’d just love to know a bit more about him. Um, Michelle [01:21:15] Obama.

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Anni Seaborne: More to learn how to be a leader without being [01:21:20] the leader. If that makes sense. She’s done such a great job to inspire people [01:21:25] without actually being the main person. So yeah, I just think she’s an [01:21:30] amazing human.

Payman Langroudi: Both both have been invited by a few people.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Are they the go to?

Payman Langroudi: Well that’s cool. [01:21:35] That’s cool.

Anni Seaborne: And then, to be honest, just someone funny. Okay, so maybe like a Ricky Gervais or. [01:21:40]

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Anni Seaborne: I enjoyed his afterlife series.

Payman Langroudi: So.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. So something like that, I don’t [01:21:45] know. No one else. But the other two are kind of the main ones that I think are incredible.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. And [01:21:50] finally, is a deathbed question weird for someone so young. But [01:21:55] if it was, if you were on your deathbed surrounded by your loved ones.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Three [01:22:00] pieces of advice for them and for everyone. What would they be? [01:22:05]

Anni Seaborne: First one would be I tried to live by. This is. It’s better to be [01:22:10] happy than right. So don’t kind of. And I say this as someone who gets [01:22:15] really emotive and really strong willed, world, but, um, don’t kind of stick [01:22:20] to something of its risks kind of upsetting someone else or just to prove a point. So that [01:22:25] would be my first one. Um, second one is to not worry about what other people are doing [01:22:30] and just stick on your own path because you’re where you’re meant to be. Um, and [01:22:35] that’s that.

Payman Langroudi: That competitive edge, though, doesn’t follow with that [01:22:40] one. Or are you saying, I’ve had trouble with this, so you shouldn’t?

Anni Seaborne: No, I [01:22:45] would say I do. You know what? It’s a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Of.

Payman Langroudi: Competing with yourself.

Payman Langroudi: Is that what you mean?

Anni Seaborne: Yes, but [01:22:50] I think a lot of people come to me, and especially recently, have been like, [01:22:55] how have you got there? All of this. And I think there’s an expectation, especially amongst [01:23:00] young dentists, that they have to achieve so much.

Payman Langroudi: Or they have to.

Payman Langroudi: As if the in [01:23:05] time like they falling behind or.

Payman Langroudi: Something.

Anni Seaborne: And actually there’s absolutely nothing wrong. If all you want [01:23:10] to do is be a GDP and have a family and look after that and do [01:23:15] three days a week. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. And that is fine. [01:23:20] And to an extent, I wish that that’s what I wanted. Um, and it’s [01:23:25] no shame on you. And it’s not that you’ve done less with your life and you haven’t made anyone proud, because the fact that you’re doing a [01:23:30] dentistry, which is a highly competitive degree in the first place to get into the career, is incredible. [01:23:35] Um, if you don’t want to be a dentist and actually you hate the industry and you want to go teach [01:23:40] yoga, that’s also completely okay. And I think there’s this.

Payman Langroudi: Equally, [01:23:45] you know, if you don’t want kids.

Anni Seaborne: If you don’t want kids.

Payman Langroudi: There should be a lifestyle that should that [01:23:50] should be a thing.

Payman Langroudi: That’s absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Cool. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. There’s still a stigma about that. I think.

Payman Langroudi: It’s. [01:23:55]

Anni Seaborne: Oh, 100%. And I’m I’ll be honest, like, I don’t I don’t have a drive for children. [01:24:00] I know my partner does. And it’s something we’ve discussed and it’s something that we’re looking into [01:24:05] egg freezing and all of that. Because right now I’m not I’m being selfish and I’m not [01:24:10] in a position to sacrifice what I’ve built right now. Um, and. [01:24:15]

Payman Langroudi: Like, if, you know, we’ve had two whole podcasts on egg freezing with Roni, and now [01:24:20] I’m just going around giving that advice to everyone, everyone, any young lady like [01:24:25] the younger the better. Yeah. With the egg freezing thing. It makes so much sense.

Anni Seaborne: Exactly, [01:24:30] exactly. And I’ve and I. Yeah, I think there’s kind of no shame in it. And it’s normal. If [01:24:35] that’s what that’s what you want to do, then that’s fine. And that’s my pathway. And equally, [01:24:40] I’ve got some friends who are struggling, trying. I’ve got friends who are starting families [01:24:45] and we’re all on our different path and we’re where we’re meant to be. And it’s no one is doing [01:24:50] better than the other person.

Payman Langroudi: Um, does it.

Payman Langroudi: You know, like [01:24:55] the idea of sort of seeking perfection. I see it [01:25:00] a lot with women, like sort of almost juggling everything, like having it all.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:25:05]

Payman Langroudi: Does that weigh on you, like.

Anni Seaborne: Um. For me? No, because I’m [01:25:10] really lucky. I’m doing things I want to be doing. Um.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Payman Langroudi: But discussion [01:25:15] for having it all implies. Yeah, doing everything you’re doing. And children as.

Payman Langroudi: Well, for instance.

Anni Seaborne: So I don’t [01:25:20] I realistically don’t think I could do what I wanted to do and have children. And that’s why I’ve made that decision. [01:25:25] And I’m really lucky that I’ve got a supportive partner who is happy to wait. And we’ve [01:25:30] I’ve basically said to him that until you can pull your weight and he [01:25:35] can’t until he’s a consultant, really, because he’s a slave to the NHS medical field. Um, [01:25:40] until you can pull your weight. I’m not willing to do that because it [01:25:45] would be too much. And I’m really lucky that I live in an era where there is science that may help me. [01:25:50] Um, and I’m also really lucky that I don’t have that internal drive for children, because I think it would [01:25:55] be really difficult if that was also on my mind. I don’t if I’m honest, and it’s really [01:26:00] horrible for women, but I don’t think I’d be doing what I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Doing for.

Payman Langroudi: Different.

Payman Langroudi: People. Yeah, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Different for different people. [01:26:05] It means nothing like, uh, Linda Greenwald for children, They’ve done [01:26:10] everything she’s done, you know. That’s her. Yeah. Phenomenal weather. Whether you want to be [01:26:15] that person or you want to be you. Yes. It doesn’t have to be like a thing that anyone [01:26:20] feels sort of guilty about. Yeah, it really shouldn’t.

Anni Seaborne: No it shouldn’t. It [01:26:25] shouldn’t at all. Um, and it also shouldn’t be one or the other. It doesn’t. Just because I’m doing what I am [01:26:30] doesn’t mean I can’t have children as well.

Payman Langroudi: Of course.

Anni Seaborne: Not. Um, so, yeah, it’s difficult [01:26:35] and there’s pressures, but I think it’s definitely people are talking about it a lot more.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: And [01:26:40] are a lot more kind of comfortable and it’s a bit more normal. But. Equally, [01:26:45] it is a shame that I probably have to go down that route in order to kind of keep [01:26:50] my career trajectory. But I also appreciate that’s life, [01:26:55] that’s biology, and there’s nothing really I can do about it. And it’s the sacrifice [01:27:00] I’m having to make. But it really it’s not really a sacrifice. Um, because I do have that [01:27:05] privilege of being able to do have other options. Um, but yeah, as I said, [01:27:10] everyone, everyone is different. And if you have that privilege to be able to do whatever you want to do [01:27:15] and live your life how you want to, I think just don’t listen to the outside noise [01:27:20] if there is any around you.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s my was.

Payman Langroudi: There a final.

Payman Langroudi: Piece of advice?

Anni Seaborne: Final one would be [01:27:25] something I’ve always. My mum used to drill into me was earn your luck and [01:27:30] idea. Behind that is you. Yes. [01:27:35] There’s lots of things, um, to luck and being in the right place, right time, knowing the right people. But you’ve [01:27:40] got to put yourself out there, um, and you’ve got to work hard if you actually want to make it turn [01:27:45] into anything.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely. What does your mum do? Your dad’s in [01:27:50] oil. What’s your mum.

Payman Langroudi: Do?

Anni Seaborne: My mum. So she was a teacher, but she taught English to [01:27:55] Malay students. So obviously when she came to England, it was a bit redundant. [01:28:00] She did a bit of primary school teaching, but.

Payman Langroudi: Otherwise she.

Payman Langroudi: Spent much time in Malaysia.

Anni Seaborne: Um, holidays. But [01:28:05] yeah, went went When this April.

Payman Langroudi: Which is lovely.

Anni Seaborne: It’s beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: They’re amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:28:10] been a massive pleasure. I really, really enjoyed it.

Payman Langroudi: Learned a.

Payman Langroudi: Lot. Learned a lot from you. Just the way you think about [01:28:15] stuff. Amazing. Really amazing. Thank you so much for coming on.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much for having me [01:28:20] as well.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [01:28:25] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:28:30] Your hosts Payman Langroudi [01:28:35] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got [01:28:40] this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay [01:28:45] for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because [01:28:50] I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [01:28:55] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out [01:29:00] of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.