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[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in [00:00:40] dentistry. Your hosts [00:00:45] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure [00:00:50] to welcome Kiran Chancler onto the podcast. Kiran is a. Can I call you a young dentist? [00:00:55] Yeah. Relatively young Dental young. A young dentist who’s [00:01:00] multi-award winning. Um, you got yourself sort of in a nice [00:01:05] sort of situation for minimally invasive restorative dentistry. Yeah. Um, [00:01:10] done some further education at the Eastman. Um, got yourself involved [00:01:15] with the BDA and all that. Still an associate.

Kiran Shankla: Still an associate. Yep.

Payman Langroudi: Can I [00:01:20] ask my burning question first?

Kiran Shankla: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Awards.

Kiran Shankla: Awards? Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Because you’ve won [00:01:25] quite a lot of awards.

Kiran Shankla: Yep.

Payman Langroudi: Firstly, what’s the motivation? Secondly, what are the tactics? [00:01:30]

Kiran Shankla: Okay. So I think the awards to be honest I still don’t know [00:01:35] how how I’ve won them. You know it’s definitely feels like a out of body moment. [00:01:40] So you know if someone says to me, oh, you won the best young dentist for the South East, I’m like, oh, did I? [00:01:45] I was like, it doesn’t doesn’t feel real, if that makes sense. Um, the motivation for them, [00:01:50] I think, especially when you’ve sort of taken the path that I have, which I’m sure we’ll explore [00:01:55] where you’ve put a lot of your time and energy into education courses. [00:02:00] You know, you’ve committed a lot of your life, your spare time into it. When you apply for [00:02:05] the awards, it’s actually really nice as a reflection to see, oh my [00:02:10] God, look how much I’ve done. Because how often do we ever stop and think, these [00:02:15] are all the things I’ve done in the last ten years? You know, it’s very rare that we do that. But when [00:02:20] you apply for these awards, they essentially are asking you, what have you done with your career? You [00:02:25] know, what are you doing with your life? And so doing the awards is actually part of reflection [00:02:30] for me because it asks you these questions, which I normally wouldn’t ask myself. And I can actually say, oh wow, like you [00:02:35] did do that, or you did win that, or you did this amazing case. Um, and I guess [00:02:40] the second bit is it’s for yourself really the it’s that encouragement or [00:02:45] you know, that that you are doing the right thing. You know, it’s that motivation [00:02:50] that actually everything you’re working hard for is true. And that’s [00:02:55] what the award process or winning the award essentially defines for me. So all those [00:03:00] hours you put in, that’s that’s paid off. That’s why you’ve won this award basically. [00:03:05] Um, so yeah, I haven’t I’ve won a few awards and I took a year off last year and I probably [00:03:10] will apply for a few more while I’m still young.

Payman Langroudi: Um, well, you can still be the young [00:03:15] dentist.

Kiran Shankla: Still be the young dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Do you understand the problem people have with awards, though?

Kiran Shankla: I don’t, [00:03:20] I guess.

Payman Langroudi: You know about it.

Kiran Shankla: I don’t know, no. Go on, tell me.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t know. [00:03:25]

Kiran Shankla: No.

Payman Langroudi: You think it’s all positive?

Kiran Shankla: I think if you. If you [00:03:30] win the award, it’s positive. But I think it also [00:03:35] if you’re on the outside and you’re seeing that, then you probably think that’s what I [00:03:40] need, which I would disagree with, because at the end of the day, [00:03:45] it’s great I have all these awards, but if I can’t do the dentistry, the awards [00:03:50] mean absolutely nothing, you know? So when my patients come in to see me. [00:03:55] So I’ve been at my established practice for three years, and it’s been a really [00:04:00] tough gig because I came into that practice with no patients. They had told me [00:04:05] the previous dentist, unfortunately, he had taken a lot of the patients with him, so they were very honest with me. [00:04:10] But it was a practice which I believed aligned with the way I wanted to [00:04:15] do dentistry. And I thought, you know, it’s a great opportunity. Let’s go in there. So every [00:04:20] time a patient comes in, it’s a new patient and they will look on the wall and be like, oh, that’s you [00:04:25] know, great to see you’ve got some awards. Sometimes they don’t even pick up on it. But really what matters is [00:04:30] how that our appointment goes. And that means more than any award on the wall.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:04:35] didn’t mention the marketing benefits of the award?

Kiran Shankla: Yes, definitely. But equally, as an associate, [00:04:40] you know, it’s kind of you get one Instagram post from the practice and then that’s it. It’s not really [00:04:45] marketed constantly. Continually like this is the best dentist in the southeast. [00:04:50] Whereas maybe if I was a principal of my own practice, I would market it a little bit more. It [00:04:55] definitely, you know, I’ve had a couple of articles written in the local paper, so it’s definitely heightened my profile. [00:05:00] And because I’ve lived in reading for 20 years and I hope to live there for another foreseeable [00:05:05] future. It’s definitely helped with recognition. But I guess the problem maybe you’re [00:05:10] alluding to is for dentists who are not winning awards. They think maybe that’s what they need [00:05:15] to become. That’s what.

Payman Langroudi: That’s one. That’s one. Um, but the dentist is not even [00:05:20] entering awards.

Kiran Shankla: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, it’s that idea that [00:05:25] you get the badge. Best young dentist. Yeah. Southeast. Because [00:05:30] you’re tactically good actually. Entering awards. Yeah. And there’s another dentist [00:05:35] who’s a better dentist than you who hasn’t entered the awards. So that dentist now isn’t [00:05:40] the best young dentist in South East.

Kiran Shankla: That’s true. But what’s stopping them applying?

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:05:45] the awards isn’t what they’re in it for? You know.

Kiran Shankla: Then I guess then if they’re not in it for [00:05:50] the award, then it shouldn’t really affect them too much because obviously they’re confident in what they’re doing and it’s [00:05:55] working. They’re busy. Um, so yeah, I think there’s like two ways to look at it really. [00:06:00]

Payman Langroudi: But the way I’ve got no problem with.

Kiran Shankla: It. Yeah. No, no, but.

Payman Langroudi: Lots of people do. Yeah. And I just wanted to clarify. Do you [00:06:05] understand what the problem people have with it?

Kiran Shankla: Have with it? Yeah. And I guess if you’re opening a new practice [00:06:10] or if you’re a new associate in a practice, it just helps build that confidence. So same [00:06:15] again. If I’m applying for a new, say, I’m applying for a job. If I’ve got that award, [00:06:20] of course, compared.

Payman Langroudi: To benefits, right. To be called the.

Kiran Shankla: Best of anything.

Payman Langroudi: The best of anything is a marketing benefit, [00:06:25] right?

Kiran Shankla: And then even just for job applications, you know, if I’m applying for a job and you’re applying for one and [00:06:30] I’ve got a couple more awards, maybe the principal will be like, oh, maybe this dentist might be a little bit better than this one. [00:06:35] You know, they are they’re going to be helping us with the marketing side. Or they may have a certain number of [00:06:40] followers or they’re just a very good dentist. So I think it does help as an associate as well to have that with you. [00:06:45]

Payman Langroudi: Do you worry that you’re not going to win? Because that for me, like we haven’t entered any [00:06:50] awards ever with the company enlightened. Ever. Yeah. And really, the reason is I don’t want to not win if [00:06:55] I’m if I’m brutally honest about it. So that must affect you. I mean, [00:07:00] doesn’t that bother you? That really bothers the hell out of me.

Kiran Shankla: So the first time I actually applied [00:07:05] for the dentistry awards, I never even made it as a finalist. So my application just got [00:07:10] obviously wasn’t good enough. It got rejected. But I didn’t think of that as a really negative thing. I [00:07:15] just thought, okay, yeah, I was just there’s obviously a process to it and the information [00:07:20] I gave wasn’t good enough. So that’s something I need to reflect on. And next year when I apply, maybe I’ll [00:07:25] try a little bit harder or do a little bit more research in what they’re looking for. Um, and that’s why I did essentially [00:07:30] I redid my whole application and then submitted it, and that’s what allowed me to win. So yeah, I got rejected. [00:07:35]

Payman Langroudi: Now that you’ve won so many, what are top tips for winning?

Kiran Shankla: Okay. So there’s [00:07:40] lots of each dental award will have their own criteria of questions. So you have to answer [00:07:45] each question.

Payman Langroudi: So you didn’t do that the first time?

Kiran Shankla: I guess you didn’t do that the first time. No. And, [00:07:50] uh, the second thing is you need to have a, like, just basically like a single application. [00:07:55] So maybe a PDF with everything in it as opposed to uploading ten different documents. [00:08:00] So basically, just make life easy for whoever’s judging so they can scroll through it okay. [00:08:05] So you’ve written the question, you know, what extracurricular activities do I do. And then [00:08:10] you’ve basically demonstrated with evidence and essentially just follow it step by step protocol. Um, [00:08:15] you need to be a little bit different, I guess. You know, everyone has similar, you [00:08:20] know, cases, similar sort of career path. So I think they really do look at charities that you [00:08:25] work with or extracurricular activities or anything outside of dentistry. Um, but also [00:08:30] I think just don’t make it everything. If you win, fantastic. If you’re a finalist, that’s great. But [00:08:35] even if you don’t like I didn’t even get through to the first round. Just take it on. Take it on your, you know, on [00:08:40] your chin.

Payman Langroudi: To answer the question.

Kiran Shankla: Yep.

Payman Langroudi: Put it all in one place so it’s easy to look at.

Kiran Shankla: Exactly. [00:08:45]

Payman Langroudi: Be different. Be different. So your USP and like your point of difference, if the guy’s got [00:08:50] 100 different entries, what would make yours stand out?

Kiran Shankla: So I guess my USP is I’ve lived [00:08:55] abroad and worked as a dentist. I’ve done.

Payman Langroudi: Australia.

Kiran Shankla: In Australia. Yep, I’ve done a masters [00:09:00] at UCL Eastman. I do a lot of teaching. I help, I help give back. So [00:09:05] at the time when I had was doing the award and had a bit more free time, I was like going once [00:09:10] or twice a month to feed the homeless with my dad. So he was part of a charity, so I’d go with him. I’ve been [00:09:15] to schools, you know, I’ve done help with education, teaching younger children on the importance of oral [00:09:20] hygiene. I think just extra little bits like that, you know, extracurricular, anything you do in your spare [00:09:25] time. So, um, you know, any clubs you’re part of or anything like that, just there basically, [00:09:30] and having good review like testimonials from patients as well as staff, [00:09:35] principals, etc., etc..

Payman Langroudi: How long was this PDF?

Kiran Shankla: From memory, I think [00:09:40] it was, you know, about 4050 pages or 50 pages. But there’s a lot of cases, [00:09:45] you know, some of them are just cases that you put in there. So there’s a lot of effort that goes behind it.

Payman Langroudi: Hell yeah. [00:09:50]

Kiran Shankla: So that’s what I mean. You gotta if you really want to win the award, you have to put a lot of effort in.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:09:55] cases. So the they want you to demonstrate how good a dentist you are as well as [00:10:00] all the extracurriculars.

Kiran Shankla: Exactly. Yeah. So it’s not just based on, you know, you’ve got 20,000 Instagram [00:10:05] followers. Great. You’re going to get it. Um, I hope the judges really do look at the cases. And so [00:10:10] when I applied, I did a variety of cases because I’m a general dentist. You know, I don’t just [00:10:15] focus on one area. So you had a little bit of under a little bit of your composites, anterior [00:10:20] posterior aligners, just a bit of everything so that they can see that you’re a general dentist. [00:10:25] But equally, I know some dentists have one who’ve just only done anterior cases, you know, so it [00:10:30] really depends on what they’re looking for. And if you’ve got two people who are, you know, level, [00:10:35] they’ll be like, okay, maybe this one’s doing lots of really good general dentistry, whereas this one’s only [00:10:40] focusing on anterior. So maybe we’ll give it to this dentist here.

Payman Langroudi: And did you go show mum?

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. [00:10:45]

Payman Langroudi: I think that might be the best bit of it.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. I mean, when I was living at home, it used to [00:10:50] be the plaque was on the mantelpiece. On the fireplace. At one point, my dad [00:10:55] said, I don’t know what to say anymore because you keep coming home with these awards and publications, but they [00:11:00] are, like, really proud. I think being from the LBC, typical Indian family [00:11:05] and especially that generation where they’ve immigrated to the UK, I think they [00:11:10] find saying what a great job you’ve done really difficult. You know there’s show love, [00:11:15] but maybe they don’t express the love. So even yeah, my dad I know my parents are very, very proud [00:11:20] of me. Um, but I also I think they’re just thinking, is this normal? Maybe this is what all dentists [00:11:25] do. I have no idea. So it’s. Yeah. It’s a.

Payman Langroudi: So do you remember [00:11:30] a time where you weren’t super ambitious?

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. [00:11:35]

Payman Langroudi: Were you always super ambitious? So you’re definitely super ambitious. [00:11:40]

Kiran Shankla: Super ambitious.

Payman Langroudi: No, I would say you are. Would you characterise yourself [00:11:45] like that?

Kiran Shankla: Yeah, I would say I’m definitely ambitious. Um. I’m middle child, so I think that has [00:11:50] something to do with it. Um, when I was younger. So we used to live in West London [00:11:55] and they used to be a park opposite our house.

Payman Langroudi: What about.

Kiran Shankla: In Hounslow? [00:12:00] Okay, so, uh, dad used to work near the airport, so he was doing, like, shift work. Uh, [00:12:05] mum used to be at home, and I remember the best bit of my childhood was waiting for my dad [00:12:10] to come home from work, and we would go to the park pretty much every day, unless it was winter, and [00:12:15] we’d always do some sort of sports, you know. So I was very competitive in the sporting element, [00:12:20] but I wasn’t very studious. Now my sister, who’s 14 months older than me, was very [00:12:25] studious. You know, she wasn’t she didn’t like sports at all. Yeah, but she was very, very [00:12:30] smart. And I remember when we were applying to secondary school and she was going [00:12:35] to Slough, you know, she was commuting every day, like getting up at 6 a.m., 11 year [00:12:40] old jumping on the coach going to Slough. And I didn’t want to do that. All I wanted to do was play sports. [00:12:45] And I remember my parents were like, no, you’re going to do the grammar school exam. And I just said to them, I just really [00:12:50] don’t want to do it. I just want to walk to school. I want to walk home and I want to play all my sports. So I remember doing [00:12:55] the grammar school exam and I came home and was like, how did it go? And I said, I failed [00:13:00] it. And they said, what do you mean? I said, I told you, I don’t want to go. You know, I’m not going to be happy there.

Kiran Shankla: And then the [00:13:05] results came out. I didn’t get in and I got to go to the local school down the road. And it was great because I was thriving, [00:13:10] you know, I was in I was doing well academically. I was in the top sets and I was doing loads of sports. [00:13:15] And then what happened was when I was in year eight, my parents decided to relocate to reading. That’s [00:13:20] where my grandparents lived, and a lot of my mum’s siblings, so we relocated. [00:13:25] But the sports element kind of just stopped at that point because I guess we just didn’t have that same [00:13:30] sense of community. I didn’t know anyone in the local area. The schooling was completely different. [00:13:35] Um, and when I joined the new school, they’d put me in sort of middle sets for everything, even though I was in top [00:13:40] set. So I had to prove to my teachers, actually, you know, I do deserve to be in the top set. So that was [00:13:45] a little bit of hard work, but it was okay. They saw after a few lessons, actually. Yep. Let’s just put [00:13:50] you in the higher sets just there and then, you know, studying was never a big part of [00:13:55] who I was even falling into dentistry. It just happened. It wasn’t an ambition. And even [00:14:00] even up until this day, my dad still says to me, I can’t believe you’re a dentist. We always thought you were going [00:14:05] to go into it or business studies or something.

Payman Langroudi: And what did your sister end up doing?

Kiran Shankla: Yeah, she’s [00:14:10] a doctor. So, yeah, she’s an anaesthetist. Okay. So even when we moved to Redding, she went to a grammar [00:14:15] school and I went to a walkable state school because that’s at that point, my parents were like, okay, actually, you [00:14:20] just want a nice, easy life. Just go to the local school. Um, and then it wasn’t until year [00:14:25] ten where we did our mock exams, you know, GCSE mocks. And I remember [00:14:30] sitting them and I ended up getting C’s and D’s and everything. And then I thought, oh, I’m not [00:14:35] really as smart as I think. And I think that’s when I thought, actually, you need to work hard. [00:14:40] If you want to do well, you’ve got to work hard. And my parents were very good. They never compared us. [00:14:45] But because my sister was so bright, I always felt like I wanted to be like that. [00:14:50] And she was fortunate. Like she could wake up the day before the exam, study for ten [00:14:55] minutes, and she’d get like, 99%. And then there’s me, like, revising for like six months [00:15:00] in a row and then be, like, just passing. So but I knew that, you know, I knew that wasn’t my strength. [00:15:05] But equally, I think I realised at that point, if you just do parrot [00:15:10] fashion learning, you can actually do really well in these exams.

Kiran Shankla: So it was probably like year ten and year 11 where [00:15:15] I thought I’d just study, just study, just study. And then GCSE results came [00:15:20] out. I did a lot better than I was expecting. You know, I was predicted all B’s got all A’s. And [00:15:25] we have a family friend who’s a dentist who called me just to see how I’d done. She said, oh, hey, Karen, [00:15:30] how you done? And I said, oh, I actually got all A’s. And she was the one who said, have you ever thought [00:15:35] about dentistry as a career? And I thought, no, I just never, ever thought of medicine. Never. Always [00:15:40] wanted to go down it, you know, business. And she was like, it’s great for women. You can work part time [00:15:45] when you have a family, you know, you can work certain hours, you can travel. And then [00:15:50] I was like, that sounds great. So then I went to school and I said, I want to change all my [00:15:55] A-levels. So I was doing all it maths business, changed them all to sciences.

Payman Langroudi: Something [00:16:00] clicked.

Kiran Shankla: Something clicked. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I didn’t reckon your parents put her up to that phone call.

Kiran Shankla: No. [00:16:05] Well, I remember even my dad was like when you said you wanted a dentist. Dentistry. Me and your mum were like, oh, really? [00:16:10] Like dentistry. You’ve never mentioned it, but they’re like, we’ll support you. You know, whatever you want to do, we’ll support you. [00:16:15] And then same again. Did the a s unfortunately got all B’s in my [00:16:20] ass and then was applying for dentistry. And I remember the teachers had to predict this is [00:16:25] when you, you could split the exams across two years. So the teachers predicted your A-level results and [00:16:30] they all predicted me Bees. And then I remember I had to like I still remember. I had to knock [00:16:35] on the staff room door and talk to my biology and chemistry teachers and be like, please predict me as if you don’t predict [00:16:40] me, as I will not get any interviews. And they were like, well, not sure if you’re going to do it. And I said, I’m going [00:16:45] to reset everything in A2. I’m going to work really, really hard. And luckily they [00:16:50] changed the grades for me, which was really nice of them. Um, and then I got one interview, which was from Birmingham [00:16:55] University.

Payman Langroudi: And you know, to do that.

Kiran Shankla: I think at that point I was probably [00:17:00] just so like, not maybe not desperate, but I think I [00:17:05] was so focussed at that point that that is really what I wanted.

Payman Langroudi: You know, just as a trait. [00:17:10] Some people will just accept things like that. Imagine they’re not changeable and [00:17:15] then other people will knock on doors. And were you always that cat? [00:17:20]

Kiran Shankla: I think I was always.

Payman Langroudi: Just wanted it.

Kiran Shankla: Just wanted it. I think I was always I [00:17:25] got told when I was younger I was had quite a loud mouth, you know, and uh, And one [00:17:30] of my best friends today, she. We met on the second week of dental school. She said the first time I [00:17:35] met you, I was so scared of you. And it wasn’t because you were rude. It was just because you were confident, you [00:17:40] know? She was like you were confident. You knew what you wanted. Um, and I think at that point, I knew I really [00:17:45] knew I wanted to do dentistry. And so I was like, I have to do whatever I can. So [00:17:50] they changed the grades in A2. So I reset all my ass at Christmas time. So [00:17:55] just focussed, you know, every single evening I was in my room studying, studying, studying. So it wasn’t easy. [00:18:00] You know, people see this image on social media and they think, oh God, it must be so easy. But it was tough. [00:18:05]

Payman Langroudi: Especially getting just one interview, right? Like everything rested on that one.

Kiran Shankla: That one interview. And [00:18:10] what really helped in that interview was I was still playing football at that time, so I was playing for South Reading, [00:18:15] and I think that’s what helped because in the interview they said, look, you haven’t got the grades at ASE, [00:18:20] how are you going to get the grades? And and the big question was, how are you going to [00:18:25] study as well as doing your football? Because obviously, you know, it seems like you’re very good at football. And [00:18:30] I was honest, I said if I had to pick, I’d pick dentistry. And essentially that’s what happened. Started [00:18:35] university, joined up for the football teams. But after a year or so I was like, I can’t, I can’t balance [00:18:40] it. So that sports just got pushed to one side and the focus was dentistry. And even then it was [00:18:45] the same like started off first year. You’re a fresher, you know you’re free, enjoyed it, had a really [00:18:50] good time. But we did a set of exams and I passed them. But I just scraped a pass and [00:18:55] I think same again. I was like.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not naturally a wake up call, a wake up call. [00:19:00]

Kiran Shankla: I was like, you know, Kieran, you’re not naturally smart. You need to get on top of it. And I had a great time at university, [00:19:05] you know, spent loads of weekends there, went on, you know, great trips and stuff. But I [00:19:10] always knew I had to study hard. And I’m a firm believer if you want something and you put enough effort into it, it will [00:19:15] happen.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you work at Sameer’s practice and he’s a firm believer in [00:19:20] treating your career like a sport.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Does that resonate with you? Like, is that is [00:19:25] that because you were so strong on sports, did you look at dentistry as if like, you know, training [00:19:30] for sports?

Kiran Shankla: I think there’s elements of being in a sports [00:19:35] team which you can bring into dentistry. So like that’s like being a team player. You know, working [00:19:40] to everyone.

Payman Langroudi: Motivating.

Kiran Shankla: Motivating and weakness. I wouldn’t necessarily see say I [00:19:45] see it as a sport, especially because as I started university, the sporting element just [00:19:50] completely disappeared in me. But I think that doing sports is what’s helped me give the confidence, [00:19:55] you know, and the ability to talk to so many different people and work as a team, [00:20:00] which may be if, you know, you said to me, how do I have the, you know, encouragement to go knock on that [00:20:05] door? Yeah, maybe it was just being as part of a team, you know, whereas if you were more timid and [00:20:10] you haven’t been exposed to that, you probably would just accept it and be like, okay, that’s you know what I’ve been told to [00:20:15] do? Um, did.

Payman Langroudi: You find you were stronger on the clinical bit?

Kiran Shankla: No.

Payman Langroudi: No, [00:20:20] neither. Me neither. I hated both bits.

Kiran Shankla: Honestly, [00:20:25] they like when I towards the end of university, all I wanted was to pass. You know, I [00:20:30] don’t think I shone in any area. If you go back and ask my.

Payman Langroudi: Middle of the class.

Kiran Shankla: Always middle. [00:20:35] Yeah, never academically amazing, just middle and everything. I had a great time, [00:20:40] you know, I enjoyed it, but I was always just a if you asked any of my lecturers then or [00:20:45] professors. Do you remember Kieran as a student? I’m sure there’s no real shine moment. [00:20:50] You know, I think I wouldn’t say they were like, yeah, she’s going to be great. Um, because I’ll be [00:20:55] honest, at the time my clinical skills were not fantastic. And then I graduated and I did my [00:21:00] training and I was lucky I got a place in Slough and same again. It was great. It was [00:21:05] good exposure, you know, you had so many different people. My trainer was fantastic. [00:21:10]

Payman Langroudi: So before we do that, Birmingham, did you did you get taught by Lewis?

Kiran Shankla: No. [00:21:15] So same again that he did a special study.

Payman Langroudi: Did you do.

Kiran Shankla: That? I didn’t do that because I wasn’t [00:21:20] like, you.

Payman Langroudi: Weren’t good enough.

Kiran Shankla: I wasn’t good enough. I was just like, I’ll do that. So [00:21:25] you could choose. And I decided to do endo because I was like, I was like, that’s what we’ll get most of in practice. Yeah. [00:21:30] And I guess at that time I just didn’t believe I could do that level of dentistry. And in hindsight, [00:21:35] I wish, you know, I wish I’d got taught of him. Maybe I would have gone down this career path sooner rather than later, [00:21:40] but I guess I just didn’t at that time.

Payman Langroudi: So where was that?

Kiran Shankla: So that was in Slough. [00:21:45] So I was in the Berkshire scheme. Um, and that was great. Same again. You had to interview for [00:21:50] your placement the first year or second year. It had come out and I knew clinically I wasn’t [00:21:55] fantastic. Academically I wasn’t fantastic. But if you put me in a room with someone, I could [00:22:00] probably be good at the communication. So I was very fortunate. I got my first choice area and I ended [00:22:05] up in a practice in Slough. It’s a very high needs, but it was great, really supportive training. [00:22:10]

Payman Langroudi: I knew the population.

Kiran Shankla: Knew the population.

Payman Langroudi: People, people underestimate that. [00:22:15] Yeah, because I think I did my TT in Kent and they’re wonderful [00:22:20] people. Kent Cat people? Yeah, but I didn’t know them. Yeah, like I wasn’t native to that [00:22:25] population. Yeah. And there’s a there’s a nuance in just like, literally when you pick [00:22:30] up the patient’s record and you see where they live, you know where that is. Little, [00:22:35] little turns of phrase and so on. People underestimate that, you know.

Kiran Shankla: Definitely. [00:22:40] And even now where so one practice is three miles, the other practices [00:22:45] is five miles down the road. Right. I can relate to a lot of these patients because.

Payman Langroudi: Schools, people go.

Kiran Shankla: To. [00:22:50]

Payman Langroudi: All of that.

Kiran Shankla: Some people some children go to same school I did. So it’s how fantastic is that to say [00:22:55] I’m your dentist? And we went both to the local comprehensive school. Yeah. And for them they can really [00:23:00] relate. Or we all live in the same area or something like that. So it’s so relatable. Mhm. Um, [00:23:05] and so with Slough I always knew it was going to be a high needs area, but it was a lot of exposure. Had [00:23:10] a fantastic.

Payman Langroudi: Did a bunch of end though.

Kiran Shankla: A bunch of endo a bunch of dentures basically. But [00:23:15] I think even then maybe it was I don’t overthink [00:23:20] things. I forget that time in my life. I didn’t used to overthink things. I was just happy go lucky. And [00:23:25] social media wasn’t a big thing at that time. You know, we’re going back 11 years now, so [00:23:30] maybe I didn’t realise how important that year was, but I had a great time. You know, I would go to work, have [00:23:35] a great time.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a brilliant year.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah, it’s a brilliant year. You know, made some fantastic friends. We all got to go to [00:23:40] like, Chicago together, you know, had a really great memories. But I think now if [00:23:45] you’re graduating as a dentist, that year might be completely different because maybe you’re thinking, you [00:23:50] know, GDC, can I do this social media, etc., etc. and maybe it was there at that time, [00:23:55] but it was just naive to it. And then after that year, I got a second [00:24:00] training job because I thought, actually, I want to just get home on my skills a little bit more. And [00:24:05] it was a pilot scheme. So essentially you do another year in practice.

Payman Langroudi: Like DCT [00:24:10] or.

Kiran Shankla: Like DCT one basically. Um, but the benefit was you’ve got two trainers, so one was your [00:24:15] general dentist trainer. And I ended up with an Endodontist as my second trainer. So same again. Root [00:24:20] canal. So. And that practice was 140 mile round [00:24:25] trip from my house in Redding. So I was waking up, commuting back and forth, back and forth, [00:24:30] and it was on a training salary. So I was like, you know, I don’t want to spend loads. Males will stay at home and [00:24:35] same again. I ended up in a really nice practice owned by two ladies who really looked after me. Uh, [00:24:40] I was very fortunate with the trainers, very fortunate with the patients, and I upskilled again there. [00:24:45]

Payman Langroudi: But do you recognise the sort of duck out of water feeling [00:24:50] that you get in that year after? Because [00:24:55] I found it. I don’t know about you, but yeah, you’re right. Insomuch as you’re learning and you’re [00:25:00] delivering like real dentistry and, you know, like almost the training kicks in properly [00:25:05] at that point, but you’re no longer definitely no longer a student. No, [00:25:10] um, you’re not with that group every Friday or whatever it is you’re earning, [00:25:15] which is nice, but I found a real feeling of isolation and a [00:25:20] feeling of was this all it was for? Yes. Did you feel that too?

Kiran Shankla: I think because [00:25:25] I ended up in a DCT position.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you still had a bit.

Kiran Shankla: You still you still had that guidance. [00:25:30] You still had that mentorship. So I was very fortunate in that sense.

Payman Langroudi: Did you get [00:25:35] very good at Endo then? You must have.

Kiran Shankla: I got good at Endo but I realised I didn’t enjoy Endo. Oh really? Yeah. [00:25:40] And my trainer at the time, she had graduated from the Eastman and [00:25:45] I think at the Eastman they just focussed on hand filing. Oh. So I was thinking, when are we using the rotary. [00:25:50]

Payman Langroudi: Like old school?

Kiran Shankla: Oh, but we never got to the rotary. It was all hand filing. And, you know, I guess there’s an elegance [00:25:55] in that as well. Um, but I realised at the end of it, God, it’s a lot of work, you [00:26:00] know, that you’re doing with your hand files and, um, also something [00:26:05] which I really wanted to do actually, from sort of fifth year was I wanted to move to Australia. [00:26:10] So in my head, I always knew I really wanted to go soon after graduation, [00:26:15] so I applied in DCT one year and I was by yourself. By [00:26:20] myself? Yeah yeah yeah yeah. And this is essentially why I.

Payman Langroudi: Like the travel bug. [00:26:25]

Kiran Shankla: The travel bug.

Payman Langroudi: So is that what it was?

Kiran Shankla: It was, it was like I love travelling. You know, when I [00:26:30] was younger, my dad’s family all emigrated to America. So he’s the only one that came [00:26:35] here. So growing up, we would always go to America every summer. My grandma used to live there. Loads of uncles and aunts. [00:26:40] And then unfortunately, when my grandma passed away, my dad said, okay, let’s just go to different places. So [00:26:45] we’d only do one holiday a year, but we’d always go to different places. You know, we go to like Egypt [00:26:50] or Thailand, you know, America, we did India. So I think I always loved travelling. [00:26:55] And in my eyes I always thought Australia. It’s just like, you know, the grass is greener. [00:27:00] And I always knew I wanted to go. So after DCT one, I had managed to get a position, [00:27:05] I offered a job and I went out there. But the problem.

Payman Langroudi: Did you get the job from here?

Kiran Shankla: I got [00:27:10] the job from here. So I interviewed here and essentially it’s the same like the UK. There’s a corporate structure [00:27:15] for a lot of practices out in Australia. Yeah. So the company said, right, we’ll sponsor you Kieran, [00:27:20] but you need to work with us for x number of years. And of course you’re not [00:27:25] going to be going to Brisbane or Melbourne or Sydney. You’re going to be going. Exactly. So I got [00:27:30] put in a I guess it’s a small town called Rockhampton, which is a 8 hour or 8 hours drive [00:27:35] north of Brisbane.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. So Brisbane was the closest city as an eight hour drive away.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness. [00:27:40]

Kiran Shankla: And it was it was okay. Like you know there was a group of ex-pat British dentists who were [00:27:45] out there who I made friends with. It was opened up the doors to private dentistry because everything was private. [00:27:50] Um, it was a different way of life, but I still had to work fairly hard because I was in a corporate [00:27:55] job. You know, there’s still I was still working 5 to 6 days a week. It was still long hours.

Payman Langroudi: Give me a sense [00:28:00] of the town. I mean, was it, as you know, that that feeling you have about Australia, beach and barbecue [00:28:05] and beer. And so was that kind of or. No.

Kiran Shankla: No. So unfortunately, this town was a little bit inland [00:28:10] as well. So there was no beach. It was a half an hour drive away. I still remember once [00:28:15] I said to my housemate who was Australian, I said, let’s go out and get something to eat. It was 8 p.m.. I [00:28:20] remember us driving around town. Everything was closed and I was like, what’s going on? He’s like, that’s just [00:28:25] how it is here. And I think at that point I was realised that maybe this is [00:28:30] not the life for me.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not the Australia you were the Australian dream.

Kiran Shankla: And I probably [00:28:35] could have had the Australian dream, but I would have had to commit maybe 3 or 4 years in this rural town [00:28:40] to then get my permanent residency to allow me to move freely. And I think the other thing [00:28:45] which my or my sister, who I talked to quite often, she she knocked it on the head, you [00:28:50] know, I got very lonely out there. And she said to me, you used to commute 140 miles a [00:28:55] day to work on a training salary. You literally drive five minutes to work, but [00:29:00] you’re getting lonely and depressed out here. So she was like, just come home. And for me, that was a big thing [00:29:05] because I said, if I go, I’m not coming back. And that’s what I said. I said, I’m going to go indefinitely. [00:29:10]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Kiran Shankla: Yeah, that’s how much I wanted it. But actually, what I realised was it wasn’t [00:29:15] the dream I’d anticipated.

Payman Langroudi: Easy thing to say.

Kiran Shankla: I was.

Payman Langroudi: Going one one.

Kiran Shankla: Way ticket. [00:29:20]

Payman Langroudi: To Australia.

Kiran Shankla: And my parents were very supportive. And they came to visit me and they loved [00:29:25] it. They came for three weeks. We did like the whole Melbourne, Sydney, up to Cairns. We did all the snorkelling [00:29:30] and everything. Um, and they, they were even like, you know, stay out there. It looks like you’re having a great time.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:29:35] I’ve never been to Australia outside of this little town. Yeah. [00:29:40] Was it did it live up to expectations?

Kiran Shankla: Yes. So I think if you’re going to go [00:29:45] aim for one of the big cities.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kiran Shankla: And I think if you go to the big cities, you [00:29:50] will have a fantastic time. You know, the weather’s good. You can have a good way of life. [00:29:55] The food is good. You know, people are generally quite relaxed and laid back. Friendly, friendly. [00:30:00] Yeah. Definitely friendly. Um, and if I was to go back, I would probably hit one of the bigger towns. [00:30:05] But equally, there’s, you know, negatives about it as well. You’re quite isolated. It’s so far [00:30:10] from everything. If you’ve got no family there. If you go by yourself, you really need to [00:30:15] know that. You know it’s not. I know people just say it’s a plane ride, but it’s not just a plane ride. It’s [00:30:20] a long plane ride. Um, and especially after Covid, I think when they closed their borders, [00:30:25] I think that’s when I really.

Payman Langroudi: Were there during that.

Kiran Shankla: No, no, no, I’d come back before then, but I [00:30:30] think at that point that’s when I was like, if I was still out there, I would be struggling so much not [00:30:35] knowing I couldn’t fly home to see my parents for a whole year or however long they had a lockdown. So I think [00:30:40] there’s pros and cons.

Payman Langroudi: So you came back.

Kiran Shankla: Came back. Um, and luckily I interviewed for a job [00:30:45] when I was out there and it was in a practice just outside of reading, and they were looking for a maternity cover. [00:30:50] And he interviewed me and he said, okay, great. You seem like a good fit. So came back, moved back in with my parents. [00:30:55] And at that point I realised that my dentistry wasn’t as good as I wanted it to [00:31:00] be. Uh, so I just and signed up to a masters, basically. And my principal at this practice in [00:31:05] reading, He had done a master’s from Eastman, so he kind.

Payman Langroudi: Of part time.

Kiran Shankla: Part time. Yeah. So he kind of [00:31:10] encouraged it. He said, you know, it’s great to be a general dentist, but find your niche, you know, find what you’re really [00:31:15] good at. And I just thought, I really just want to be a good general dentist. So I started this.

Payman Langroudi: So was that MSC restorative. [00:31:20]

Kiran Shankla: Restorative. Exactly. And same again now.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me tell me about that course. So firstly [00:31:25] what’s the commitment. How much of it do you have to turn up for.

Kiran Shankla: For. So [00:31:30] it was four years when I was there. Now it’s three years. So for the first year you have to go [00:31:35] in once a week. And the second year I believe now, because it’s changed from four years to three years. [00:31:40] It’s once a week and the third year is your dissertation. So that that’s a lot more flexible, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Lots of homework. [00:31:45]

Kiran Shankla: Lots of homework. So I remember, you know, there’s times now where weekends, [00:31:50] which I’d missed out on because I was studying or revising or you’re doing case presentations, [00:31:55] you know, pretty much every week at home in the evening, I was doing something [00:32:00] related to it. So from that point onwards, I just got used to doing [00:32:05] like dentistry outside of working hours. And I was fortunate because I was living at home, you know, my parents really looked [00:32:10] after me, did all the cooking, cleaning. There was no like financial strains, but I think it just became [00:32:15] the norm, you know, to do some dentistry outside of dentistry hours. But there was a lot of commitment [00:32:20] involved and, you know, you sacrifice a lot. It was holidays, which I missed out on.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the course. Did they sort [00:32:25] of start from the beginning again?

Kiran Shankla: Essentially, yeah. You start from the scratch. So they teach you the basics. [00:32:30] You know how to do a class two restoration, how to do a primary root canal, how [00:32:35] to do a crown prep. So it was really good to just home on the skills which you’re taught at university, [00:32:40] but you’re probably in a different mindset for me anyway. I was in a different mindset at that point. I was like, right, [00:32:45] I’m willing to learn. And that just gave me the confidence to start doing good general dentistry. And [00:32:50] so the second year is the diploma. So you go a little bit more in depth. So you learn about tooth wear. So [00:32:55] you’ve got a whole year dedicated to that. And the third year was the dissertation. So a lot of people they’ll [00:33:00] just drop out after the second year because they’re like, I’ve got the clinical skills, I don’t need the dissertation. [00:33:05] Whereas for me, I always knew I wanted to teach at some point and I felt, [00:33:10] yeah, it always felt like I wanted to give something back or teach. And I thought if I had the masters, that would [00:33:15] just help back me. Um, but equally, I was like, If I’m going to spend a year doing a master’s, it has to be on a [00:33:20] topic which I can publish. So they, you know.

Payman Langroudi: What was your dissertation?

Kiran Shankla: So something really boring post [00:33:25] and cores, but it’s a topic that got published in the Journal of International Dentistry, [00:33:30] whereas some people did did it on apps, you know, and stuff like that, which was really exciting. But [00:33:35] obviously you couldn’t publish it.

Payman Langroudi: So what aspect of post and call?

Kiran Shankla: So just it was basically [00:33:40] an assessment on GDP to see when they would use post and chords. Would they use metal, would [00:33:45] they use fibre posts and cores? And basically what the tick boxes were for you to offer it to patients. [00:33:50] So luckily that was during Covid. So everything had gone online at this point. And [00:33:55] I remember before Covid you would have to go to some of these shows and you’d have to stand there [00:34:00] with your surveys and hand them out. But with Covid, they allowed us to do it all online. So I just posted it on [00:34:05] dentist for dentist saying, hey guys, can you help me out? Posted it to a lot of friends. Uh, any [00:34:10] dentist. And I got a lot of good feedback that way.

Payman Langroudi: So that was literally your research data came [00:34:15] from that came.

Kiran Shankla: From that.

Payman Langroudi: Basically. That was nice.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. So it was nice and easy. But I remember when the list of topics [00:34:20] came out, my principal helped me. He said, probably go for this one because there’s so much data out there already. [00:34:25] And um, you you’ll hopefully be able to do publish it. And we managed to publish it in the end. So [00:34:30] that was sort of my first real, I guess, publication or, or, you know, getting [00:34:35] my name out there. Um, and then that was in that finished in 2020 and. [00:34:40]

Payman Langroudi: The, the process itself. Yeah. I mean, when you’re writing a dissertation, [00:34:45] you can’t write anything. That is your opinion.

Kiran Shankla: No, no, it has to all be factual. [00:34:50]

Payman Langroudi: Everything has to be something from someone else’s work.

Kiran Shankla: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s a kind of a weird process [00:34:55] in itself, right? Because, um, I don’t know. How did you how did you do? They train [00:35:00] you well on that process?

Kiran Shankla: Yep. So you had a couple of days where they teach you how to look for journals. You know, the [00:35:05] search criteria, how to narrow it. Um, to be honest, I’ve forgotten it all completely.

[BOTH]: You know [00:35:10] what.

Payman Langroudi: I find weird about it? Let’s say my opinion. Let’s talk teeth whitening. My opinion [00:35:15] on teeth whitening is that the trade design needs to be a certain way. Yeah. Yeah. Then [00:35:20] I go look for studies that prove that to be the case in those particular [00:35:25] studies. But there’s 100 studies saying something else. Yes. So in a way, it is my opinion. [00:35:30] I just go and find the question, the answer to the question that I’m asking. Yeah. [00:35:35] It’s weird.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: No, it’s a funny thing. That’s I guess there’s no better way [00:35:40] that unfortunately.

Kiran Shankla: I think that’s when you’re with education. It all depends on the [00:35:45] published data. Whereas you could be doing something in your surgery and it’s working incredible. But [00:35:50] you’ve not written one story about it. And that’s where the downfall is. It’s not [00:35:55] on your opinion. It’s on what the evidence is out there. Yeah. Whereas on your day to day dentistry, if [00:36:00] you do something and it works, even though they might not be one case study in it, but you know it works, you’re just going to keep [00:36:05] doing it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. So that’s where. And I can see why a lot of people dropped out before the dissertation [00:36:10] year. Um, but for me, I kind of was like, well, you’ve gone so far. It’s just one more year. [00:36:15]

Payman Langroudi: And tell me about the two surface loss elements. Like, did they go as far as is it? Is it sort [00:36:20] of that, uh, Francesca Vigliotti.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. So essentially it [00:36:25] tells you how to do the examination, how to take the records, what treatment options to provide, [00:36:30] and essentially how to do it so that that was the foundation.

Payman Langroudi: Sort of full mouth rehab.

Kiran Shankla: Full [00:36:35] mouth rehab, basically.

Payman Langroudi: You’re very confident with that now?

Kiran Shankla: I would say I’m confident.

Kiran Shankla: But I don’t do many cases of it. So [00:36:40] it’s like, obviously the more you do of certain cases, the better you get. And unfortunately, only maybe do [00:36:45] maybe like 8 to 10 cases a year. Why? So in the practice [00:36:50] I’m in at the moment, I’ve been growing a list, and a lot of the patients that are coming in are not stable [00:36:55] to even have that sort of treatment. So it’s really been working really hard [00:37:00] at stabilising them. And now, you know, three years into it, as they get more stable then they can have [00:37:05] that treatment basically. So I’m not saying no.

Payman Langroudi: Do you find it challenging breaking it to a patient that they’re going [00:37:10] to have to spend 20 grand or whatever?

Kiran Shankla: Yeah, I think.

Kiran Shankla: It’s I so I always.

Payman Langroudi: Figured that [00:37:15] one out.

Kiran Shankla: No, no I haven’t figured that one out. So when I was in my practice, which [00:37:20] I came back from Australia, it was a big plan practice. So there was a lot of patients there who [00:37:25] had been there for many years, and they were willing to have the treatment. So I would get referrals in-house [00:37:30] for the treatment. Now, when I moved into my new practice, which is in the centre of reading, it’s a high needs [00:37:35] area. There’s so many people with decay who just haven’t seen a dentist, or who’ve just not had the [00:37:40] dentistry to keep their mouths going.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re in mixed practice?

Kiran Shankla: No, this is in middle. It’s [00:37:45] private. Yeah, it’s in middle of reading, but it’s a private practice. And, um, for me, the biggest [00:37:50] challenge has been communication. Because in my old practice, all the patients [00:37:55] were there. They were already there. They were already booking and see you in this new practice. I’ve had to work so [00:38:00] hard on my communication. Um, and it’s building trust.

Payman Langroudi: Building trust, building [00:38:05] trust.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. It’s been tough. Like, you know, it’s not it’s not underestimate.

Payman Langroudi: People underestimate that as well. Right. Because new [00:38:10] patient. Yeah. You’ve got the new patient. The type that wants to go ahead and make something beautiful. [00:38:15] You know that that type. But you’ve got the new patient who’s just a new patient. Yeah. [00:38:20] Just want to see a dentist. Yeah. And you can’t the first time you meet that patient, [00:38:25] say let’s go ahead and do X, Y and Z. It’s quite hard. You need to they need to trust [00:38:30] you as a simple, you know, someone they can talk to and all of that. It might take a [00:38:35] couple of years. Right.

Kiran Shankla: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: It might take a couple of years of of just just doing nothing. [00:38:40] Yeah. Before trust is there, before they can jump into it. Especially with with that [00:38:45] kind of work, that comprehensive work. It’s not obvious sometimes to patients that they need [00:38:50] something.

Kiran Shankla: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: So do you use them? You know, I think the [00:38:55] trios has this thing where you can scan now and then scan three years down the line, and it shows the tooth [00:39:00] wear.

Kiran Shankla: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Use that.

Kiran Shankla: Tool. We used we’re very fortunate. So we get we have the scanners [00:39:05] which you can compare. We’ve got I on the x rays as well. Pearl. Pearl. Yep. [00:39:10] So that’s really good.

Payman Langroudi: Any good?

Kiran Shankla: I think it’s good. I think it’s good for educational for your patient. Because [00:39:15] normally if a patient has a hole, you show them a black and white X-ray.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t see.

Kiran Shankla: It. And they’re just thinking, [00:39:20] okay, if that’s what you say. Whereas with this you just tick on the pink colour. I’m like, can you see all the holes? And [00:39:25] they’re like, yes. So I think for educational to show them, look how close it is to your nerve. The risk [00:39:30] of root canal patients get it as soon as you show them that they’re like I get it, I get what you’re talking about. So [00:39:35] I think that has really helped with the communication side. So as a new patient, when you’re coming to see me, you’re getting all of that given [00:39:40] to you.

Payman Langroudi: Photography.

Kiran Shankla: Photography scans, x rays with [00:39:45] intraoral cameras, extra oral cameras, everything basically. And then they get to see the work that I do as well. [00:39:50]

Payman Langroudi: Will you show them other cases?

Kiran Shankla: I showed them cases. I always say, look, the dentistry I do is a little [00:39:55] bit different to everyone else. Like, we always work under rubber dam. We try and build your fillings to look as [00:40:00] realistic as possible. And I always say to them, look, I’m a slut. I always joke them. I say, look, I’m a slower dentist [00:40:05] than your average dentist, but I want to make sure my composites last, you know, 8 to 10 years and [00:40:10] they get that. And then after the first session when they’ve had it, you know, sometimes a patient came in on Tuesday, [00:40:15] needed two fillings, booked him in for an hour and 45 minutes. And it was tough fillings. [00:40:20] But at the end of it he was anterior posterior. Um, so like he had just [00:40:25] seen his dentist in January, he’d come to see me. And then I said to him, look, there’s actually four teeth which [00:40:30] are heavily broken down that need treatment, and you’ve got another four amalgams which are starting to like, [00:40:35] corrode. And the first point is really important because I always say to the patient, it depends [00:40:40] how you want to treat it. Obviously I’m going to tell you everything. It’s your choice. Do you want to be a bit more [00:40:45] proactive, or do you want to be a bit more reactive? Because I was like a lot of these, you know, these are red. We have to [00:40:50] do them. And the amber ones, they’re actually next door to the teeth that are red. So if you want to be proactive, we [00:40:55] can do them at the same time. If you want to be reactive, that’s totally fine as well.

Kiran Shankla: We’ll do them in the future. And some people [00:41:00] are like, I get it, Kieran, I see what you’re doing. Let’s just get everything done. And some people are a little bit more like, actually, [00:41:05] you know what? Can we just do? The ones that we need. And the way that I teach them is that there’s three sort [00:41:10] of scenarios, three areas in your mouth that I need to work on. So the first is health. So [00:41:15] we’re going to work on stabilising your cavities, stabilising your gums basically until [00:41:20] those are stable. We can’t then move on to the next step which is function. So function is all [00:41:25] about how your teeth meet, how they bite together. And that’s all your clear aligner treatment. You know, all the fun stuff. [00:41:30] And then the aesthetics will naturally come at the end of it. You know, if your teeth are functioning [00:41:35] right and if they’re healthy, you’re going to get a good aesthetics with it. So patients get that. But it’s a journey, [00:41:40] right? I’m not going to say to them on the first day they come in, oh yeah, you need eight fillings hygiene, root canal [00:41:45] crowns, clear aligner treatment, whitening, etc. etc. so I tell them from the [00:41:50] beginning, this is the journey we’re going to go on. But like you said, that could be a ten year journey. You know [00:41:55] when they’re ready. And it also depends on what they want. And they need to build that trust with you. I don’t [00:42:00] want to say to them, here’s your massive treatment plan. Let’s get it done. I’d rather just take it step by step.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:42:05] a really good approach. Who taught you that?

Kiran Shankla: Doctor Samir Patel.

Payman Langroudi: Really? Yeah. [00:42:10]

Kiran Shankla: So, yeah. Samir has been great. Um. And actually, he came, [00:42:15] I think. So I was in this plan. Practice 2020. I finished my master’s. I’m in this plan. [00:42:20] Practice Covid. You know, Covid has just come. And after Covid, I’m sure you know, [00:42:25] it was, like, crazy busy at work. It was 15 minute check-ups.

Payman Langroudi: It was a beautiful time. [00:42:30]

Kiran Shankla: Yeah, a good time. But also really like I found it quite tough because you had so many patients [00:42:35] and needed so much work. The diary was fully booked for eight weeks. Um, and I wasn’t getting [00:42:40] to do the dentistry I’d been trained to do, you know, and then I’d seen an advert in [00:42:45] the bacd for looking for an associate dentist at Samir’s practice in Henley. [00:42:50] So I thought, let me apply, you know, let’s see what happens. And I applied. He interviewed [00:42:55] me, he said, great, you’re going to be working on referral for me. So I went there, started working. [00:43:00] His nurse was amazing because we shared the same nurse, so she would help me out. And he was the first [00:43:05] one who actually ever said to me, because he would look at the work I’d done, he would actually say, your work is actually really good. [00:43:10] And he gave that confidence, you know, he was the first one to actually be like, actually, you’re really good at your posterior dentistry. [00:43:15] Um, and I knew my anterior dentistry at that point wasn’t great, but I was willing to learn and he was willing to teach. [00:43:20] And we ended up getting a really good relationship. And that’s why when he then bought practice, the [00:43:25] ortho practice, he invited me to come and work there. Um, but yeah, so that communication was [00:43:30] really important, which I think, I think there’s two things. If you’re a young dentist and you’re [00:43:35] listening to this, there’s two things which I would say are really important.

Kiran Shankla: And I think the first one, which a [00:43:40] lot of people forget about, is your clinical skills. I was like, you need to be a good dentist. Like [00:43:45] I was like, you need to be good. Like I sometimes I find dentistry really tough. And [00:43:50] I always say to my nurse, the most difficult dentistry is when a patient has had [00:43:55] dental work done somewhere else, but it’s been done to a substandard, you know, quality, [00:44:00] and they’ve been left with open contact or a void. And it’s just been sitting there for a couple of years, and [00:44:05] then I have to go in and fix that. I was like, that’s so much more difficult than if the patient had just come [00:44:10] and see me the first time around. And we had just done a good restoration. And I think the second thing is the communication, [00:44:15] and that comes with time, you know, and I think sometimes you get this dissociation. You’ve got a really [00:44:20] good dentist who’s communicating, but their clinical skills are not great. Or you have a dentist who’s [00:44:25] great at the clinical skills, but the communication is not there. Yeah. Um, so, you know, you could have like a [00:44:30] billion Instagram followers, but if your clinical dentistry is not great, then [00:44:35] what’s the point in it all? Like, when did dentistry become about your social media and when did it not become [00:44:40] about the patient? You know, that patient is the most for me is the most important thing.

Payman Langroudi: I get [00:44:45] it, I get it.

Kiran Shankla: I get.

Payman Langroudi: It. But there is always referral, right?

Kiran Shankla: Yes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, [00:44:50] I noticed you’re very busy on Instagram yourself, right? Yeah. But my, my point [00:44:55] is, let’s imagine I’m some sort of social media type. Yeah. [00:45:00] And loads of patients are coming to me. As long as I refer to the things [00:45:05] I don’t know how to do.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There’s nothing wrong with that.

Kiran Shankla: No, there’s nothing.

Kiran Shankla: Wrong with that.

Payman Langroudi: Nothing [00:45:10] wrong with that? No, of course we all need to, you know, deliver great dentistry, there’s [00:45:15] no doubt about that. Um, and you’re right in that not everyone takes [00:45:20] the time to isolate everything. Rubber dam. Everything. That’s true. Yeah, [00:45:25] you’re right about that. Um, not everyone has postgrad degrees, right? Yeah. You know. [00:45:30] Yeah. Um, but, you know, the question of, you know, staying happy as a dentist. [00:45:35] Yeah. Because it can wear you down. Yeah.

Kiran Shankla: Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: The the [00:45:40] sum of the interactions can wear you down. Clinically, it can wear you down a little bit. Right? My [00:45:45] cousin’s a eye surgeon, and he was telling me the days that [00:45:50] he’s got LA operations are way, way, way more stressful than the [00:45:55] days that he does the gas. Mhm. Yeah. And it’s similar to us. They have to give injections in the [00:46:00] eye. Um and you know nervous patients and all that. So dentistry takes a toll. [00:46:05]

Kiran Shankla: Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Would you say the key to happiness in [00:46:10] dentistry. What would you say it is. I mean, from [00:46:15] the from the from from the outside looking at you. Certainly continuing to get better. [00:46:20] Yeah. Really is an important thing. Some people stagnate. Yes.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. [00:46:25]

Payman Langroudi: And the relationships, I mean, are you are you getting energy from the relationships [00:46:30] with your patients?

Kiran Shankla: Yeah, I think.

Kiran Shankla: I think with dentistry, especially the first ten [00:46:35] years, it’s tough. You know, you’re investing so much time educating, you’re probably [00:46:40] working. There was a time where I was working in three practices, six days a week. Oh, it was mental. Like, you know, [00:46:45] you just do it because you’re in. You’re in it. You have to do it. And I think getting [00:46:50] that, you know, really nice sort of happy medium is, is difficult [00:46:55] to find. Yeah. Um, I remember once I went to a lecture by [00:47:00] Nigel Foot and he nailed it on the head. He said, when you’re at work, you’ve got basically [00:47:05] this emotional reserve. So it’s kind of like when you go into your overdraft in a bank and [00:47:10] you keep using your overdraft here and here and here, and when you’re at work, you’ve got that emotional reserve, but [00:47:15] you need to give that to everyone at work your nurses, your staff, your patients. Yeah. [00:47:20] And then when you come home, you’re just like, I’m wiped out. But if your spouse doesn’t [00:47:25] understand that for them, it might be really, really difficult, especially if they’re not in that career. And I think [00:47:30] sometimes as dentists, we don’t really talk about that. You know, we don’t actually say to people, actually, I [00:47:35] am just mentally exhausted because the moment that patient sits in the chair, I’m thinking. [00:47:40] I’m thinking, what am I going to do next? What am I going to say? What treatment needs to be done? And it [00:47:45] is tough. It is really, really tough. Um, I’m very fortunate now. I work sort of three and a half days [00:47:50] a week and that has, you know, but that’s only been very recent. Up until then, it was [00:47:55] like five days a week.

Payman Langroudi: It’s too much, man.

Kiran Shankla: It’s too much.

Payman Langroudi: At the, at the the level [00:48:00] that you’re working. It’s too much. That’s the thing. Definitely. If you’re if you’re really, really caring [00:48:05] about every case and every patient, every interaction, every rubber dam, every contact point.

Kiran Shankla: It’s [00:48:10] too much.

Payman Langroudi: For days, for days, for me, for days is enough. Yeah. Not to [00:48:15] mention these days, I mean, I stopped in 2012 right back then. Well, it was when you just [00:48:20] qualified. Back then, you didn’t have to write essays. Yeah. Notes. Now you’ve [00:48:25] got all of that. Everything on top. You know, it’s, um. It’s funny [00:48:30] because I’ve talked to a lot of principals who begrudge these dentists who say, I want to work four [00:48:35] days. Three days? Yeah. Um, and I get it. As a business owner, I get it [00:48:40] right. You want people to be, you know, fully committed. Um, but I kind of welcome [00:48:45] this new idea. I meet loads of young dentists now saying I want to work [00:48:50] three days a week, and I only want to do a lime bleach blonde. Yeah. Yeah. Great. [00:48:55] Yeah. You know, if that’s what you can do.

Kiran Shankla: If that’s what makes you happy.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. That’s what makes you happy. Yeah. Why not [00:49:00] do that? But then I do talk to a lot of dentists of my generation who hate that idea and say, [00:49:05] you’re a dentist. You have to know everything. You have to understand everything. And, um. [00:49:10] Why? You [00:49:15] must have come across both types. Right. I mean, in the Eastman, you get that sort of old school teaching. Tell me about the [00:49:20] the lab part. Do they make you do loads of lab work there as well?

Kiran Shankla: So because we were on the part time masters. [00:49:25] Yeah. You didn’t have to get involved with that. But there was the full time one year [00:49:30] cons. And I remember one after my first year, part time, I was thinking about switching to the full [00:49:35] time and the tutor said, just go meet the students and see if you want to do it. And [00:49:40] the first, I think ten weeks you’re there seven days a week doing your own lab work. And [00:49:45] I met the students, and I have never seen a bunch of students more depressed in my life. Broken. Broken. [00:49:50] I thought, forget it. Let’s stick to the part time. Because with the part time, you could still go on holidays, you could [00:49:55] still travel, you know, you could still have a bit of a life. Whereas with the full time, I was like, that just looks like [00:50:00] a.

Payman Langroudi: What was the.

Kiran Shankla: Cost? It was. Honestly, [00:50:05] I can’t remember now. I try not to think about it. I think nearly 40 to [00:50:10] 50 in total. In total. Yeah, definitely. And that’s obviously not including your days off [00:50:15] from work or travel time or all the extra time you put in. I mean, [00:50:20] I don’t. For me, it’s like you go on courses, right? Yeah. To get better. You never think, oh, [00:50:25] it’s costing me this much. Should I, should I not go? So it’s one of those things where if you’re investing, it will pay [00:50:30] off. Eventually.

Payman Langroudi: You’ll get it back.

Kiran Shankla: You’ll get it back. And equally. Like now I look at the practices I’m in, you know, [00:50:35] the dentistry we’re doing. It’s definitely paying itself back.

Payman Langroudi: So you recommend that course, right.

Kiran Shankla: Well, [00:50:40] at. That time that was the path that I followed. But I actually think now there’s some very good [00:50:45] one year courses or there’s some even great like weekend courses that you go on. So similarly, [00:50:50] even though I did the Masters, I still go on courses. You know, I still might think, oh, I really want to get better at Posterior [00:50:55] Composites. Let’s see who’s good at that. I want to get better at veneers. Let’s see who’s good at that. So if you’re not going [00:51:00] to do that, then I would say pick the person who’s best in that field and go on their course [00:51:05] because everyone is great at something, you know. So you might find someone who’s fantastic at Anterior Bonding, [00:51:10] go on to their course, find someone who’s great at Root Canal, go on to their course, and you can build [00:51:15] that way, basically.

Payman Langroudi: What about the soft benefits of being at the Eastman? [00:51:20] So, you know, hard benefits. Okay. They teach you this. They teach you that. Yeah. But did you [00:51:25] make contacts with it? Sort of. I don’t know, Inspirational tutors [00:51:30] that made you want to be even better. Do you have someone you can call now that you didn’t have [00:51:35] before? So people on your course, maybe.

Kiran Shankla: Well, one one great thing was so [00:51:40] the second practice I work at Kendrick through dental practice. One of the principals there, he [00:51:45] actually took a year out. So he was doing the masters. He was in the year above me, had no idea who he was, [00:51:50] and then he took a year out and actually came into my year in the dissertation, and [00:51:55] we both connected. We got the same name. We got. We started talking and he said, oh, I own a practice in [00:52:00] Redding.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so that’s how you got that job?

Kiran Shankla: And that’s how I got the job, because then two years later, when they were looking [00:52:05] for an associate, he basically said, if you just apply for the job here and I think you’ll get it. And [00:52:10] so that connection was incredible because if I hadn’t met him, I would have never known about the practice or if [00:52:15] I applied, we would have never had that connection in terms of tutors, unfortunately, because [00:52:20] we ended in the Covid year.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you didn’t meet them very much.

Kiran Shankla: We didn’t meet them very much. And it all sort of, [00:52:25] you know, you kind of just I didn’t even have a graduation ceremony. Oh, yeah. It was, like, delayed. And [00:52:30] then I wanted to go to have the photo taken, and they cancelled that because there was another bit of Covid. So it was all [00:52:35] kind of haphazard at the end.

Payman Langroudi: Just hard to get in.

Kiran Shankla: For the part time masters. [00:52:40] No, I would say it’s not hard to get in. Oh really? I think yeah, they’re quite open to taking on anyone. [00:52:45] We had lots of dentists, different age groups graduated from different places from around the world. [00:52:50] Very easy to get in. The good thing about the Eastman one, compared to maybe a few [00:52:55] others, was it was hands on, whereas I think a couple of the others are all theory and [00:53:00] I needed the hands on. So that was another reason why it pushed me that way. But there’s now one year [00:53:05] courses, you know, diplomas where you get hands on. Yeah. So I think if you’re looking for, you know, a structured [00:53:10] learning pathway, look for one where you’re getting that hands on element. So you get to pick up the BA and [00:53:15] then go back into work and do the cases and then present them basically. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [00:53:20] talk about the future. Are you gonna open your [00:53:25] own?

Kiran Shankla: I’m an R about it. You know, people always ask me, would [00:53:30] you open your own practice? But I’m. I think I’m very fortunate that I have been both practices. [00:53:35] I work and I have full autonomy, you know, so I can book as long as I want. Uh, [00:53:40] choose the hours. I pretty much work. Uh, charge whatever I like.

Payman Langroudi: That is nice.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. [00:53:45] You know, so I think.

Payman Langroudi: Often the reason people start their own practices because something like that [00:53:50] isn’t in place.

Kiran Shankla: Isn’t in.

Payman Langroudi: Place. Yeah. So they, they sort of banging heads with the principle. [00:53:55] Yeah. Yeah. So, so you, there’s less of a motivation for you to actually open [00:54:00] your own.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. Because I think if I wasn’t in these practices then maybe it would push me [00:54:05] more. But I also think like, you know, I have one of the Hendrick view we’ve got it’s [00:54:10] a ten surgery, private practice, maybe 25 staff, ten surgeries. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s bloody.

Kiran Shankla: Hell. This practice [00:54:15] is incredible. If you ever come up to reading, I’ll definitely show it to you. But it looks like it should belong on Harley Street. [00:54:20] But it’s in the centre of reading. It’s got a fantastic reputation. We’ve got staff members who’ve [00:54:25] been there for over 30 years. You know, we’ve got nurses for over 20 years. And that’s what appealed [00:54:30] to me about the practice because I was like, how often do nurses, you know, such a high turnover [00:54:35] because they always want the next job or they’re progressing in their career. How often is it where you come across a practice [00:54:40] where like, oh, we’ve had a nurse for 20 years, or I’ve had the same nurse since the day I started there. [00:54:45] And that for me is incredible.

Payman Langroudi: It goes a long way.

Kiran Shankla: It goes such a long way. You know all those [00:54:50] things.

Payman Langroudi: If you get on with her, right?

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. We get along really, really well. And I think those [00:54:55] things for me, I was like, I have all of that. And if I opened a practice, what would I sacrifice? [00:55:00] What would be the sacrifice? Would it be the lecturing? Would it be the cases? Would it be my personal [00:55:05] life? You know, I think something would have to give. And I’m really content at the moment. I’m [00:55:10] happy, you know, I work, I go home, it’s like a nice. It’s a nice life, you know. [00:55:15]

[BOTH]: What are your lecturing subjects?

Kiran Shankla: So my main one is icon. Okay. [00:55:20]

Payman Langroudi: So let’s get into that. Let’s get into that.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. So a fair few icon referrals in the practice [00:55:25] from around surrounding area. I’ve been working with DMG for about 4 or 5 years.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get into icon. [00:55:30] Yeah. What are the what are the white spots or brown spots that icon can’t treat like when [00:55:35] you. I get this question all the time right. Dentists contact me. What do I need to [00:55:40] do here? Yeah. And I’ll say stuff like, uh, whiten and then consent for [00:55:45] Microabrasion icon and composites, basically. Yeah, that’s what I say. But but but which are the cases [00:55:50] now? Clearly sort of the very chalky, well demarcated chalky area. [00:55:55] Yeah. Icons not going to be able to handle that. Is that correct.

Kiran Shankla: That’s correct. So anything like mine [00:56:00] where it’s impacting where it’s going into your dentine, where it’s really, really deep icon [00:56:05] will help. But it’s not everything. So I think what dentists get wrong is they see oh white spot. [00:56:10] Let’s put some icon on and then it doesn’t work because they haven’t realised that that spot is actually really opaque [00:56:15] and going into your dentine. So on those cases you will need to use some sort of micro abrasion [00:56:20] or composite at the end to help remove and camouflage the spot, but you still use icon [00:56:25] to get into the deeper layers, but you need something a little bit more like micro enamel removal [00:56:30] to remove that outer surface. And I think that’s where dentists get confused.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s good to actually say to the [00:56:35] patient, I’m going to try that. If it doesn’t work, I’m going to move on to this. And that. Is that the way you say it?

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. [00:56:40] So when they come in for their consultations, I say, you know, you’ve got some simplest, uh, lesions [00:56:45] and you’ve got a bit deeper lesions. And I’ll bring up the photos and I’ll say, can you see the difference in colours and everything? [00:56:50] And I’ll be like with those ones, they will need a little bit of enamel removed. Um, [00:56:55] but don’t worry, I’m going to put a little composite restoration at the end, so it’s going to look like normal to you. So I’ve [00:57:00] already primed them, which I think a lot of dentists. If you’re starting out with icon, you don’t realise that [00:57:05] you need to do that. You just think I’ve got to put the gel on and then that’s it. So it’s same again. It’s been [00:57:10] a learning curve, like there’s so many papers I read. I think I remember the case which changed [00:57:15] my opinion on icon. I actually messaged yourself on Instagram because it was a young girl with brown [00:57:20] and white spots, and I messaged myself and a few other dentists and, um, everyone said, you need to [00:57:25] do a little bit of whitening and then icon. But she was young and at that time I didn’t have the confidence [00:57:30] to do whitening and under 18. But now I’ve looked into it, I’ve contacted my indemnity, I’ve [00:57:35] researched it, and actually it’s something that we do do, but in very specific cases if it’s going to help them basically. [00:57:40]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I think now we’re okay, right? We’re okay under eighteens.

Kiran Shankla: Even.

Payman Langroudi: Now.

Kiran Shankla: People still messaging [00:57:45] me saying they’ll send me a case and they’ll say, so do you think I can do this with icon? She’s booked in next [00:57:50] week. And the first thing I’ll say, have you done the whitening? They’re like, no, she’s under 18. And I’m [00:57:55] like, Then I’ll explain to him, you need to do the whitening first because it’s the most conservative option. I said, talk to your [00:58:00] indemnity. And once they talk to their indemnity, they’re like, oh yeah, they’ve actually said there’s like nine reasons why [00:58:05] I can do it. And as long as we’re saying it’s not for.

Payman Langroudi: The disconnect, the disconnect is the GDC [00:58:10] have said it’s fine. Yes. But the.

Kiran Shankla: Trading.

Payman Langroudi: Standards, the consumer law, [00:58:15] it’s still illegal.

Kiran Shankla: Yes, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So it’s a it’s a funny. Linda’s working [00:58:20] very hard on it. It has been for. She has been for a long time.

Kiran Shankla: Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: But okay let’s continue with [00:58:25] icon. What are the things to look out for. I mean by the way when you get to the composite are you using flowable [00:58:30] opaque.

Kiran Shankla: No. So just single layer enamel shade.

Payman Langroudi: But isn’t it if let’s [00:58:35] say you you use your icon, you drill. It’s still chalky. Yeah. Rather [00:58:40] than drilling any further, if you use a flowable opaque and then the.

Kiran Shankla: You [00:58:45] can.

Payman Langroudi: Does that happen?

Kiran Shankla: It doesn’t. Normally I don’t use the opaque. [00:58:50] As for icon cases, I tend to use them more for edge bonding or composite veneers or anything. But with the icon [00:58:55] essentially, essentially what’s happened is the tooth has erupted and then due to fluoride [00:59:00] or tooth brushing, the outer surface is hardened basically. So when you’re using your like for samples, [00:59:05] you’re just using it to break the outer enamel shell and then your eye penetrates deeper. Exactly. [00:59:10] And then your icon gel is what’s penetrating deeper. And that should penetrate the whole depth of the spot [00:59:15] then. So when you put the infiltrate, you’ll see that that spot will disappear, but you’ll be left with a bit of [00:59:20] a groove. And then that’s where your composite goes on top. So if you’re still getting the white spot, it means you haven’t [00:59:25] penetrated deep enough, basically.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I.

Kiran Shankla: See. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what else? What other tips icon [00:59:30] tips.

Kiran Shankla: Well tips. So always do whitening first. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um do you isolate. You have [00:59:35] to write because the acid is quite the acid.

Kiran Shankla: So I always on on my course I always say use [00:59:40] a rubber dam if you can, because that icon actually tend to use it for maybe three, four cycles. [00:59:45] If it gets onto the soft tissue, you’ve just left 15% hydrochloric acid there for maybe if you haven’t [00:59:50] noticed, you could have left it there for like 15 minutes or so and that’s going to cause a nasty burn basically. [00:59:55] Uh, generally with icon, it’s about consenting your patient as well. Uh, [01:00:00] I find patients who have that treatment. They’re so thankful. You know, some of the patients [01:00:05] who rave the most about you are the ones who everyone has said no to, and then eventually they end up [01:00:10] coming to see you and you’re actually like, oh, I can help you. And you show them your cases and they’re just so happy. It’s always on [01:00:15] young children. So you’ve got to imagine that, like, we had a young chap at the ortho practice [01:00:20] who had big brown marks on his teeth and no one had treated him. And then I just started [01:00:25] working there. So they said, I’ll go and see Kieran. And we just treated it with icon and whitening [01:00:30] and he’s had his teeth closed. They all look amazing. He’s had a growth spurt. I was like, imagine the [01:00:35] life for that teenager now compared to two. I was like, his whole life trajectory is going to change. [01:00:40] He’s got that confidence.

Payman Langroudi: How do you know where you should do Microabrasion [01:00:45] first?

Kiran Shankla: So icon it depends if it’s a fluorosis [01:00:50] case or white spot lesions after orthodontic treatment then that’s more simple icon [01:00:55] microabrasion that will treat it. If you’ve got trauma which has caused a white spot or if you’ve got m.i.h [01:01:00] so your single opaque white spots, then you know you’re going to need to go in with something deeper, [01:01:05] basically. So that’s when you may use your burr to just access the top.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but how do you know whether or not you should [01:01:10] do microabrasion? I mean, a lot of people skip right through Microabrasion and they could.

Kiran Shankla: So generally.

Payman Langroudi: Just go straight to icon.

Kiran Shankla: They [01:01:15] go straight to icon. So it depends on the diagnosis. So depending on which one of the four diagnosis you have. And [01:01:20] also you can use your light. So you’ve got like translumination. So when you use your light [01:01:25] you can see where the lesions are. So if they’re running into the dentine then you know okay [01:01:30] icon or abrasion is not going to be effective enough. I need to use something like a burr or [01:01:35] sandblast or something like that. Whereas if they’re in the superficial area then you can do the icon or microabrasion [01:01:40] and probably not even need to touch the fast handpiece and you’ll get a really good result.

Payman Langroudi: Anything radiographic. [01:01:45] Is there something you can see on an x ray on a on a white spot?

Kiran Shankla: To be honest, I don’t normally take [01:01:50] pars of anterior teeth, which we’re going to be doing icon on, but I know with [01:01:55] the Niri software on the itero for posterior, you can see the change. And [01:02:00] then when you do icon on posterity if you can change it. But yeah, I haven’t taken I don’t really [01:02:05] expose the young child to anterior X-rays unless there’s something else going on. Yeah. [01:02:10]

Payman Langroudi: And what do you charge?

Kiran Shankla: It really depends, um, which practice [01:02:15] I’m in, but it tends to be on an hourly rate, basically. So I don’t say to the patient, oh, [01:02:20] you’re going to need an icon and a composite icon. Is this the composite? Is this. I just say to the patient [01:02:25] you’re going to come in for the treatment. I’ve booked you two hours for it. And basically this is this is how much.

Payman Langroudi: It’s how long [01:02:30] it takes.

Kiran Shankla: It depends on case by case if it’s like a single spot, an hour, if it’s like eight teeth fluorosis, [01:02:35] maybe two hours and same again, I say to them, look, I love taking photos. So for me it might take [01:02:40] a bit longer, but because they’re a younger patient like a teenager, they’re not used [01:02:45] to having like rubber dam and all these bits on. So that takes a bit of time, you know, just to get the rubber [01:02:50] dam. I don’t normally numb up for icon, so sometimes it takes longer to get the rubber dam on completely [01:02:55] inverted, you know, for eight teeth than actually doing the icon treatment just there.

Payman Langroudi: Does it not get sensitive? [01:03:00]

Kiran Shankla: The only time patients have complained is a bit sore if I’ve got rubber dam clamps on. [01:03:05] So now I don’t use clamps, I just use widgets. But I think I’ve [01:03:10] only ever done one icon case with local anaesthetic, and it’s because he had a fixed retainer [01:03:15] on and we had to put a basically a clamp to really push back the rubber dam over the full [01:03:20] tooth. Apart from that, it’s like without any local anaesthetic or anything. Yeah. So I get [01:03:25] yeah. Touchwood. It’s been that’s really helped develop my career. We get a lot of referrals [01:03:30] in for it, trying to teach people how to do it now because I think, like you said, people try it and it doesn’t work and [01:03:35] they give up on it. But there is a step by step protocol that they can follow. And it really [01:03:40] has changed my dentistry, because those are the cases which you make the most difference. You know, no one’s ever [01:03:45] going to go home and be like, look at this amazing filling my dentist did. But if you change a young person’s smile, [01:03:50] you know it’s everything for them.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the Cole work. So [01:03:55] the key opinion leader.

Kiran Shankla: So that essentially.

Payman Langroudi: How did you land these key [01:04:00] opinion leader roles?

Kiran Shankla: I think it was a bit of luck and the right time. So [01:04:05] with the icon, what happened is the rep had come into the practice to talk to us about the [01:04:10] product, and then I had done a couple of cases and I was offered. [01:04:15] I was invited because it was Covid to do an online webinar, uh, for this company out in [01:04:20] Asia and India. I think it was they said, you can do on anything you like. And I just started using icons. So I [01:04:25] thought, let me just do a webinar on that. And the rep had seen it and he actually just took it straight to headquarters [01:04:30] and said, actually, I think this young dentist might be good. And then the next. I still remember the phone call [01:04:35] I got. We were walking me and my husband, uh, and I remember the phone call and I [01:04:40] answered it and he said, yeah, you’ve been made one of our calls. So I think they just happened to maybe they needed [01:04:45] at that particular point in time, they were looking for a young female, maybe ethnically diverse, who was [01:04:50] doing some decent dentistry, and it all landed. I think there’s a bit of luck, but a bit of hard [01:04:55] work.

Payman Langroudi: What does it mean to be a colleague?

Kiran Shankla: So it means you get to do the lecturing, you get to go around, do the lecturing, [01:05:00] you get to try out the new materials. So you get to write the article. So [01:05:05] it depends how big you want to take it, right? So some cables don’t want to do much. Some just want to [01:05:10] focus on the article. Some want to focus on the lecturing. So you get exposed to new [01:05:15] materials that are being made before they get bought onto the market. So you get to try them out. Also, [01:05:20] if there’s any papers that have been published, you get to know about them firsthand. But I guess for me it was [01:05:25] always the teaching the cable allowed me then for someone to be like, actually, we’ve got some great opportunities. [01:05:30] Why don’t you come teach?

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, do you get paid to be a col [01:05:35] or do you just get paid per time you teach or what? Where’s the pay? Basically when when you [01:05:40] teach.

Kiran Shankla: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: What about when you write an article? You get paid for that.

Kiran Shankla: You get for that. Yeah. So [01:05:45] yeah. So it’s like, you know, it’s not you probably would earn more in practice to be honest, [01:05:50] if you were on a busy practice. So you’re not doing it for the money element. But I quite enjoy [01:05:55] teaching. You know, it’s great to help dentists. I think as a profession.

Payman Langroudi: Would you say it’s a similar deal with [01:06:00] both companies?

Kiran Shankla: Similar. Yeah. Very very similar.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Everything like, as [01:06:05] far as, you know, what it means to be there.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. I think like Simon Cowell [01:06:10] for SDI as well. And same again.

Payman Langroudi: How’d that come about?

Kiran Shankla: So one of the [01:06:15] reps just happened to be in the area. I had got her contact details from one of the Dental [01:06:20] shows, so she said, I’ll come in and show you a few materials. And at this point, I think my Instagram [01:06:25] was quite heavily clinically orientated, so she started following me. And then same [01:06:30] again. She just said, hey Kieran, do you want to be a Cowell? So that one just she obviously just saw [01:06:35] the work I was doing, maybe had a chat with her supervisor and said, there’s someone in the area who’s pretty good. And they just [01:06:40] landed like that. So with these cables, I haven’t gone after them. You know, I think I’ve [01:06:45] been very fortunate. They’ve just seen.

Payman Langroudi: Did you use the SDI composite.

Kiran Shankla: The [01:06:50] Luna for sometimes for anterior restorations? Yeah. It’s not like if anterior. [01:06:55] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s get on to the darker part of the pod. [01:07:00] We’d like to talk about mistakes. Yeah, like clinical errors. [01:07:05] Things that other people can learn from. What comes to mind when I say biggest mistakes you’ve [01:07:10] made?

Kiran Shankla: So biggest mistakes? I think we’re always learning. You know, generally in the job. Yeah. In terms of [01:07:15] mistakes. So I was thinking about this, uh, for, you know, after you sent me the email [01:07:20] and one. So a couple of things come to mind. One was, uh, I was doing an online preparation [01:07:25] for a patient on a lower six, and she had fracture lines. So that’s why we were doing [01:07:30] the online. So I took out the amalgam, and both the buccal and the lingual cusp went. And this tooth looked amazing, [01:07:35] you know, had a rim of enamel. It was naturally fractured or felt great. So I took the scan, [01:07:40] got the online back, tried it in, looked good, uh, cemented it in, got [01:07:45] the patient to bite together. The bite was off completely. I was thinking, [01:07:50] what happened here? Like it’s gone down perfectly, adjusted the bite [01:07:55] and then got her in for a roux, took an x ray, and I said, that doesn’t look right. And I realised I’d basically cemented [01:08:00] it in the wrong way round, but I hadn’t realised. Yeah. So basically the [01:08:05] buckle, the buckle was on the lingual. Lingual is on the buckle. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a good one.

Kiran Shankla: I called the lab and I said.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [01:08:10] a goodie.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah I said what happened? And he said, Kieran this is such a rare event. The prep was like [01:08:15] perfectly symmetrical on both sides. And he said, you obviously just got confused and cemented [01:08:20] it in wrong. And I thought, okay, great. So I just told the patient, you know, obviously it’s not gone how we planned [01:08:25] and then removed it and gave her a new one.

Payman Langroudi: I had to cut it off.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah, cut it off. Had to take it off. Yeah [01:08:30] I had to take it off because the margins were not perfect on the x ray we took.

Payman Langroudi: Was the patient cool?

Kiran Shankla: She was fine. Yeah. [01:08:35] She was like.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not looking for that kind of error. I’m looking for a different kind of error, like one where the patient wasn’t cool. [01:08:40] I mean, nice, nice story. Um, if it’s any consolation, Basil Mizrahi, [01:08:45] his his one was he put the left lateral on the right lateral veneers. [01:08:50]

Kiran Shankla: I had to do the same. Just remove them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah, definitely.

Payman Langroudi: But I need [01:08:55] a better story than that.

Kiran Shankla: But a story. So I think clear aligners is, you know, you’ve got [01:09:00] the expectations that come with clear aligners, with patients.

Payman Langroudi: At the end.

Kiran Shankla: At the.

Payman Langroudi: End. My daughter’s going through that [01:09:05] right now. She’s being so, so picky and clear minded. She [01:09:10] was like, yeah, your daughters are quite picky, right?

Kiran Shankla: And so, um, [01:09:15] so I have had a patient who was in my old practice who we had finished the treatment on, uh, and [01:09:20] after I left for one year, I was coming back every 6 to 8 weeks just to see her, to finish off [01:09:25] her treatment, which I was happy to do. Uh, and at the end, she said, I’m happy she signed the consent form. I’m [01:09:30] like, great. Got her retainers. I thought, great, I’m done. And then three months later, she’s [01:09:35] emailed the practice saying, I’m not happy. My teeth are moving again. And [01:09:40] so obviously I’m not now. It’s been 16 months since I’ve left officially. [01:09:45] The practice. And so I’m getting CC’d into all these email correspondence [01:09:50] saying, you know, patient’s not happy. She thinks the teeth are moving. I said, well, can someone just take [01:09:55] a scan and just show it to me. And they took a scan and I was like, well, it looks exactly the same as [01:10:00] her previous scan. So they said that to her. She went away again. Then she came back three [01:10:05] months later after that and she said, I’m not happy with the alignment. You know, I’m not happy with the position [01:10:10] of the teeth. And at this point, I had started my own, uh, clear aligner [01:10:15] journey. So when I had a look at this scan again, I said, you know what? I get it. [01:10:20] Like I understand why she thinks we haven’t finished, because if I if that was me, because [01:10:25] even I’m coming to the end, I’m becoming really picky. I’m like your daughter. I’m like, I want perfection. But it was frustrating [01:10:30] because we had completed the treatment. She had signed the consent form. And now. [01:10:35]

Payman Langroudi: What did you.

Kiran Shankla: Do? Well, unfortunately, no one in the practice was willing to take on the case.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kiran Shankla: And [01:10:40] I spoke to my indemnity, and they said, Karen, do you think she could do with more aligners? And I said, yeah, I think she can because [01:10:45] I’m in that same position, I get it. So they said, if you think she needs more aligners, just go deal with [01:10:50] it. So I got her more aligners and now I’m going back to finish off the treatment.

Payman Langroudi: Still visiting that [01:10:55] practice? Visiting the practice two years on.

Kiran Shankla: Essentially two years on. So I’ve got to go back in a few weeks and finish it [01:11:00] off.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Kiran Shankla: And so that’s been like tough because I’m like, where do I stand? Because if it was [01:11:05] a crown, if it was a root canal, if it was a filling that had failed, the practice would have just had to deal [01:11:10] with it. But because they’re not dealing with it, it’s coming down to me.

Payman Langroudi: And if you’re losing money every time [01:11:15] you’re going in and all of that. Right.

Kiran Shankla: So if it ever came down to court, they would say, well, you’re the dentist. [01:11:20] You’ve got to deal with it.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah. Interesting. Well, we had a mini smile makeover [01:11:25] about a month ago. And one of the delegates, um, she she got a [01:11:30] WhatsApp sort of at the end of day two, near the end of day two, and I [01:11:35] noticed she was just. She was just typing, typing, typing, typing, typing. And I actually wanted, you know, [01:11:40] there was this amazing case, like the best case of the whole of the whole two day course. [01:11:45] So I kind of tapped her on the shoulder and said, you know, this is really interesting. And watch this. And I noticed [01:11:50] she wasn’t into it. And then I spoke to her and she goes, oh, there’s a complaint. Yeah. And [01:11:55] throughout the second day, she wasn’t herself, let alone 16 [01:12:00] months later. It’s a constant issue. I know that’s there. [01:12:05] And and, you know, sort of sort of draining you. Yes. [01:12:10]

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. Because now it’s been coming up to nearly two years since I left the practice, but I’m having to go back.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:12:15] is the patient still kind of think that you’re doing your best, or has there been any question [01:12:20] around? I mean, for instance, on reflection, would you have done something differently here? Was there a communication [01:12:25] breakdown or something like that?

Kiran Shankla: I think on reflection, I think so many [01:12:30] of your colleagues may say this. You get this gut instinct.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kiran Shankla: And I think [01:12:35] in hindsight may.

Payman Langroudi: Have treated her at all.

Kiran Shankla: Shouldn’t have treated her at all.

Payman Langroudi: Really really really.

Kiran Shankla: Really. So [01:12:40] I think the expectations were too high. And at that point I’d started the treatment I, I had no intention [01:12:45] of leaving the practice. But then obviously once I handed my notice in, I and I still think, [01:12:50] you know, I still went back to Twitter. I still accommodated, worked around whichever time was available. [01:12:55] But I think now I’m just like, oh, I’m still here. Like two years later.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s [01:13:00] a weird tension. It’s a weird tension.

Kiran Shankla: A weird tension, because she probably knows I don’t want to be there.

Payman Langroudi: No, no. But it’s a weird tension, [01:13:05] insomuch as a lot of especially in private practice. Right? A lot of what we’re doing is making the patient [01:13:10] happy. Yeah. Um, certainly when I was in private practice, I service [01:13:15] was a big part of what I was doing. I used to get pleasure from, from from making people happy. [01:13:20] And especially if there’s something that you’re quite good at. Yeah. Let’s say my world [01:13:25] whitening. Yeah. If I had a whitening patient and and they said something like, I went to another [01:13:30] practice and we did whitening and it didn’t work. Yeah. Yeah. My ego would kick [01:13:35] in and say, well, you know, they don’t know what they’re doing in my head. In my own head. Yeah. I think, [01:13:40] well, maybe, maybe the guy didn’t know anyone could do it. Exactly right. And, and and the warning [01:13:45] sign there is that maybe the guy did know what he was doing. Maybe it was the patient. Yes. [01:13:50] Whatever. Not necessarily the the, you know, mental side. Not necessarily the, you know, maybe there [01:13:55] was clinically something. Yeah. In whitening bruxism, you know, it’s a real nightmare when [01:14:00] it happens. Um, now I go ahead and treat that patient. Things [01:14:05] don’t go as planned. Yeah. Then then I’m. Then I’m in [01:14:10] a situation now where now I’ve got this problem. Um, but what I’m saying is the tension [01:14:15] between trying to make people happy and and ignoring [01:14:20] that spidey sense that tells you don’t do this or, you know, be careful. It’s [01:14:25] a tension. You get it wrong sometimes.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah, definitely. And I think as you get older, you become a [01:14:30] bit more cautious. Yeah. But when you’re younger, you kind of just like take. So that’s, you know, it’s [01:14:35] like it’s okay. Like, you know, at the time I was frustrated and annoyed that [01:14:40] I had to go and do this, but I’ve just come to terms with it. I’m like, it’s just something you have to do.

Payman Langroudi: It’s part.

Kiran Shankla: Of the job. [01:14:45]

Payman Langroudi: In cosmetics as part of.

Kiran Shankla: The job. I was like, just go and do it. Make sure she’s happy, get another consent [01:14:50] form.

Payman Langroudi: Is it over now or no?

Kiran Shankla: I’ll go back in a few weeks and we’ll have [01:14:55] a look at it, basically. But, um, yeah, that’s probably it’s, you know, that it’s frustrating, but what can [01:15:00] you do. You know, at least. And the problem was in her emails, I think she started accusing me of rushing [01:15:05] the treatment. And I was like, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Not here we go.

Kiran Shankla: I was like, that’s not cool. And I need to stop [01:15:10] this. Like, I need to I need to get involved now before this escalates. So I was just like, just go sort it out, Kieran. [01:15:15] It’s not the end of the world. You can make it work. So yeah, it’s done. It’s okay. But in [01:15:20] hindsight, maybe I wouldn’t have taken on.

Payman Langroudi: I mean they’ve kind of she’s made it personal there. Yeah. But [01:15:25] I’d say the number one advice in these situations is don’t take it personally, you know. Exactly. That’s the thing. [01:15:30]

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And because I know because I’m having my own treatment as well. And even [01:15:35] I’m waiting for just one tooth to align, I can see it. I’m like, yeah, I get it. Like, let’s get it sorted. [01:15:40]

Payman Langroudi: So I had your guitar. Do you know your guitar? She’s, uh, she’s the Basil’s [01:15:45] associate.

Kiran Shankla: Oh, yes. Yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah. So she said to me, you know, she gets some of the most difficult [01:15:50] patients cosmetically. And she said to me, look, if I can see [01:15:55] what the patient is saying, I’m going to take that case on. Yeah. However complicated [01:16:00] mentally that patient is because she sees herself as the last sort of, [01:16:05] you know, the last place people who the Eastman reject, she takes on [01:16:10] sometimes. Yeah. Um, but she’s saying sometimes when she can’t see it, that’s the point [01:16:15] where that’s the line that she’s drawing and you’re kind of saying, by having the treatment yourself, [01:16:20] you realised, you know, that that situation, right? You want it to be perfect. [01:16:25]

Kiran Shankla: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an interesting I like that one. That’s a good one. Better than the Upside Down. [01:16:30] Listen, we’ve come to the end of our time. Let’s end it with the usual. The usual [01:16:35] questions. Fantasy dinner party. Yes. Three guests, [01:16:40] dead or alive. Who are you having?

Kiran Shankla: So I, I so I [01:16:45] would have my three grandparents who are not with us anymore. So I think I lost them [01:16:50] when I was quite young, 11, 12 and 18. And I think at that stage in your life, you actually [01:16:55] don’t appreciate them. You kind of just think there’s someone who’s there, but you don’t. I [01:17:00] never had that chance to develop that relationship. So for me it would be them. But obviously, obviously [01:17:05] if it was like, you know, a fun party and they could be there too, but it’d just be like [01:17:10] some someone really cool, like some like Albert Einstein or, you know, just people who [01:17:15] made a difference to the world or, you know, uh, Ellen.

Payman Langroudi: Ellen, [01:17:20] Ellen’s reputation’s not so good anymore.

Kiran Shankla: Uh, or like, you know, just like, [01:17:25] um, the guy who discovered Australia cook. I can’t remember his first name, but just, you know, [01:17:30] some people who’ve done different football. Not. No. So I used to play it loads and never [01:17:35] once.

Payman Langroudi: A.

Kiran Shankla: Fan once Manchester United lost Alex Ferguson. I think I kind of just lost [01:17:40] interest. I watched the big games like the World Cup, the women’s or men’s team are [01:17:45] playing. Support England all the way, but not the everyday sort of, you know, Premier League or anything like [01:17:50] that.

Payman Langroudi: Do you follow any sport?

Kiran Shankla: Honestly, just the big tournaments. [01:17:55] So a Wimbledon. Yeah. Watch it like you know F1 when they’re on watch it but not on a regular basis. [01:18:00] Because even with the sports it’s like you get so emotionally involved with like you see people get talk [01:18:05] about their teams and they get into arguments and everything. I was like, is it worth it? You know, is that is that worth it [01:18:10] all?

Payman Langroudi: I go to a football match. I find myself when I’ve been. I don’t go often, but when [01:18:15] I’ve been, I find myself looking at the audience more than more than the tribalism of the audience. [01:18:20] It’s quite interesting. Yeah, definitely. I find that much more interesting than the game sometimes.

Kiran Shankla: I [01:18:25] just enjoying the atmosphere.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Final question. Yeah. It’s deathbed. It’s [01:18:30] a bit weird, someone as old as you. But on your deathbed. Three pieces of advice for friends [01:18:35] and family. What would they be?

Kiran Shankla: I think, um, just [01:18:40] be happy, you know? Just be happy. Be happy. Just. I [01:18:45] think we.

Payman Langroudi: What if I’m not happy?

Kiran Shankla: I think we live in a society where [01:18:50] we compare all the time to others. We’re always comparing. And sometimes [01:18:55] you just need to take a step out and just think. Actually, I’m super [01:19:00] lucky, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Be grateful.

Kiran Shankla: Be grateful. I think if you are born in maybe like one of ten [01:19:05] countries, you’re already better off than most people in the world. You know, in the West, it’s I’m not saying it’s perfect [01:19:10] anywhere, but you’ve got so many opportunities. You know, you’ve got so much safety. You know, you’ve got [01:19:15] so many things which we have access to, which in other places, they just don’t. I think just be happy. Be [01:19:20] grateful. I think don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Feel like, you know, the the clichés [01:19:25] are all real.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like the count your blessings. Yes. Life [01:19:30] is such a bitch. Yeah. That that. It’s the only way to get through it is to count your blessings. [01:19:35]

Kiran Shankla: Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: But go on. Yeah. Like that?

Kiran Shankla: I think the second one is like, [01:19:40] if you feel you want to do something, do it. Don’t have no regrets. [01:19:45] You know, it might be the worst decision in the world, but at least you did it because there’s no there’s [01:19:50] no point in living life with so many regrets, you know? So for, like me, I really wanted to go to Australia. I [01:19:55] did, it didn’t work out. It’s cool, you know? It’s okay. But if I hadn’t gone, I’d probably still be sitting [01:20:00] here today. I want to go. Yeah, yeah. So I think have no regrets. And I guess the [01:20:05] third thing would be travel. Enjoy the world for what [01:20:10] it is. You know, it’s great being isolated in your own city or town, but [01:20:15] the world has so much to offer. Um, I’ve been very fortunate. Like, I’ve seen all the seven [01:20:20] wonders of the world. Yeah, we’ve done them all, like backpacked South America, Central America. [01:20:25]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, nice.

Kiran Shankla: Lived abroad, like, climbed Mount Kilimanjaro. And for me, like, [01:20:30] the experiences in life are so much better than what car [01:20:35] you drive or what bag you have. You know, those experiences will define you basically, [01:20:40] because they’ll be the happiest moments in your time.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kiran Shankla: You know, so just have good experiences, travel, enjoy [01:20:45] the world for what it is.

Payman Langroudi: You gave three answers there that are all things you do. What [01:20:50] about something you wish you’d done or way you wish [01:20:55] you were? You know when you advise your loved ones.

Kiran Shankla: Oh, I [01:21:00] don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve kind of come up with the I did this. It worked for me. You should to.

Kiran Shankla: Do. [01:21:05]

Payman Langroudi: It too. What about. What about stuff you didn’t do that you wish you did do? I think you said don’t live [01:21:10] with regrets. So that’s.

Kiran Shankla: I think, take the risks. So maybe.

Payman Langroudi: You risk [01:21:15] averse a little.

Kiran Shankla: Bit. Probably more risk averse. Yeah. So I guess if you asked me five [01:21:20] years, sometimes I think, like you asked about opening the practice, maybe I should have done it, but [01:21:25] maybe I thought too much into it or was too risky.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not sure that you know the way you’ve described it. Yeah. [01:21:30] The associate life’s wonderful when when you’re in the right practice. It really [01:21:35] is. You know, if you’re if you’re seeing patients you like and you’re doing the [01:21:40] treatment the way you want to do it, and the practice is the way you like it to be. You’re [01:21:45] making money as an associate without any of the headaches. There’s [01:21:50] a there’s a lot to be said for that. Yeah, there’s a lot to be said for that. Um, [01:21:55] risk is a funny thing, you know, because.

Kiran Shankla: They go two ways.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:22:00] yeah. The I mean, I don’t know. The way I think about [01:22:05] things is sometimes you want to sort of make a dent in the world [01:22:10] like that sort of Steve Jobs kind of thing. And the practice that you do open. [01:22:15] Yeah. Will be an interesting thing, right?

Kiran Shankla: Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: Um, whether [01:22:20] whether we’re talking design or whether we’re talking patient journey. And [01:22:25] even though you’ve, you’ve made this picture of two places where you’re very happy. [01:22:30] I’m sure your own place would be slightly different. Yeah, exactly.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. A different journey [01:22:35] would be, you know, different completely just there. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But risk wise, you know, what’s the worst that [01:22:40] can happen if you go bankrupt?

Kiran Shankla: But, yeah, you get through it, don’t you?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:22:45] it’s very rare. You know, we do have dentists go bankrupt. It does happen. Yeah, [01:22:50] but rare. Rare, rare.

Kiran Shankla: I mean, I think generally as a dentist, we’re very fortunate. We’re in a good [01:22:55] we’re in a good profession. You know, people need us. Um, and you can’t say that about many professions. [01:23:00] You know, and then you’ve got the flexibility. You know, you can work. The less days. More days. You can go [01:23:05] away for long periods of time. I think there’s so many benefits of being a dentist, which [01:23:10] a lot of the time we just look at the negatives. You know, I’ve got friends who say, I’ll never tell my kids [01:23:15] to be a dentist. Yeah. You know, I just think, why is it is it that bad? Like, you know, have you [01:23:20] you talk to anyone else in any other professions and seeing how hard it is for them, you know, coming home at seven, 8:00 [01:23:25] at night, you know, five days a week, like, constantly on the computer. So I think there’s, [01:23:30] like, pros and cons in everything. So just look. Look at everything as a positive.

Payman Langroudi: I think nothing [01:23:35] worthwhile is easy, right?

Kiran Shankla: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, you’re right when you talk to friends. [01:23:40] Unless they were handed it down or something. Nothing worthwhile is [01:23:45] easy. You know, like people think. Oh, it’s easy to be a, I don’t [01:23:50] know, banker because they make so much money.

Kiran Shankla: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not easy to be a banker at [01:23:55] all.

Kiran Shankla: I know.

Payman Langroudi: Like, the pressure those guys are under and the early mornings and [01:24:00] late nights. Yeah, we think it’s pressure in a mod. There’s pressure in [01:24:05] losing millions, you know? Yeah. Things like that.

Kiran Shankla: Yeah. Everyone everyone has their [01:24:10] own problems. Right? And the grass is always greener. Yeah. But. So the biggest thing that I learned from [01:24:15] Australia was the grass is not always greener. And that’s the biggest thing. What did you learn? [01:24:20] I was like actually just be content and happy with, you know, work hard. The good things will happen. But also [01:24:25] don’t compare, you know, just have a nice life, basically.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. I really, [01:24:30] really enjoyed.

Kiran Shankla: Oh thank.

Payman Langroudi: You. I like I like your outlook. It’s it’s very, [01:24:35] uh, simple and and effective.

Kiran Shankla: It’s working so [01:24:40] far.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks so much for coming.

Kiran Shankla: Oh, thank you so much.

Payman Langroudi: Really enjoyed that.

Kiran Shankla: Thank you. Good stuff.

[VOICE]: This [01:24:45] is Dental Leaders the podcast [01:24:50] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:24:55] hosts Payman Langroudi and [01:25:00] Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you [01:25:05] must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually [01:25:10] sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming [01:25:15] you got some value out of it.

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