Robert van Geffen: And I use it really as a mirror to me. So what’s triggering you? Well, what? [00:00:05] You can ask the question. Oh, how do I feel now? What is the thing I should not do? What [00:00:10] is the question I should not do? Is this statement I’m going to make helpful in this situation? [00:00:15] So it’s very reflective, right? Your children are very much a mirror [00:00:20] of your bright sides and your dark sides for sure. [00:00:25] And the more you go deep on your darker side and again, don’t see dark as all negative, [00:00:30] right? But the more you understand the triggers, the emotions, the [00:00:35] things that come out of that, etc., the better you are as a as [00:00:40] a human being in general. And then of course, as a father, as a leader, [00:00:45] as whatever you do in society.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:50] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:55] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [00:01:00] Your hosts. Payman [00:01:05] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Ladies and gentlemen, [00:01:10] it’s my pleasure to introduce Rob Van Geffen to the Dental [00:01:15] Leaders podcast. And Rob is somebody I met. I would [00:01:20] say by chance I was at the DSO Leadership Summit in this. [00:01:25] I’d crossed paths with Rob whilst I was prepping for a talk, and [00:01:30] then one morning and we’d exchanged a few words, and then one morning as, um, as I was [00:01:35] going in to get my breakfast, not quite dressed for the rest of the day, I didn’t have [00:01:40] my shirt or anything on, I just had my t shirt on from the gym maybe. And I saw Rob. Friendly [00:01:45] face looked up and I walked over and said, mind if I join you? And he said, sure. Um. [00:01:50] And for what I felt could have been a 10 to 15 minute exchange [00:01:55] over, um, you know, a coffee and and a short breakfast. [00:02:00] I think we were engaged for the next 90 minutes or so, just [00:02:05] chatting away. And and when we came away from that conversation, I just thought to myself, [00:02:10] the rest of the world needs to hear this. If only. If only I [00:02:15] could have captured the essence in every lesson that you shared with me during that conversation, [00:02:20] and deliver it to the rest of the world. What a powerful message it would be. So, [00:02:25] Rob, I’d like to have breakfast with you again. Um, and I’d like to take [00:02:30] this conversation further, but. But Rob is the chief marketing officer at strawman, [00:02:35] and so that’s his official title. Yeah. Um, but what I learned from [00:02:40] you was much, much deeper than that. Much, much deeper than that. And to [00:02:45] take things from the start. I’m going to ask you a few questions that go a little bit deeper than than [00:02:50] where we went, because I want this conversation to go a little bit further. Rob, I want to take you [00:02:55] back to your childhood. Um, tell me about your upbringing. What that was like. [00:03:00] What sort of kid were you at at school? Where were you brought up? And just [00:03:05] paint a picture of your upbringing for me, Rob.

Robert van Geffen: Mm. Interesting to go down [00:03:10] deep in and and just coincidentally. Right. It’s the [00:03:15] 1st of July. Uh, yeah. And and I think that’s also memorable because I’m exactly [00:03:20] two years, uh, in the company. Uh, strongman. Indeed. Uh, chief [00:03:25] marketing officer. And now I’m here on the Dental leadership also, [00:03:30] uh, a great pleasure also. Uh, thank you for the invite. Uh, yeah. My upbringing, [00:03:35] I think I am, uh, raised by a mother and a father work a collar. So, uh, [00:03:40] you know, we have a, uh, a younger brother. Older sister. Uh, we were raised a [00:03:45] little bit in the outskirts of a city. Uh, in the Netherlands. We didn’t [00:03:50] have a lot of, you know, uh, money in that sense, but we had a lot of fun. But we [00:03:55] also raised a little bit free because my my father was working a lot and my mother was working also [00:04:00] a lot. So sometimes we had time. My, my, my younger brother [00:04:05] and myself had time alone. And we, we also were a lot on the street. So [00:04:10] we were free. Free as children can be. Uh, we were we were also [00:04:15] careless. Uh, we we, uh, climbed trees sometimes to the level of where we [00:04:20] thought, hmm. Can we go higher? Yes we can. Do we fall down the tree? Yes we do. [00:04:25] Do we learn from it? Of course we do. Uh. So carefree. Careless. [00:04:30] Uh, and of course, parents working hard. Uh, caring, uh, for us. Uh, [00:04:35] but I, I, I recall, and I look back at my, uh, [00:04:40] early days as, uh, quite memorable in the sense that there was a lot of freedom [00:04:45] always outside. Uh, we had two friends, buddies in [00:04:50] the street, and we just had a lot of fun.

Prav Solanki: And naturally. [00:04:55]

Robert van Geffen: I know you’re.

Prav Solanki: A father as well, right? So, um, you know, if I, if you just bring [00:05:00] back memories of me and my brother playing out on our BMX bikes, our skateboards, and and [00:05:05] we’d leave home in the morning. Yes. And and then come back in the evening when it was time for [00:05:10] some food. Mhm. And what happened in between. Our parents did not have a clue. Okay. [00:05:15] But we came back with scratches, bruises. But we were still alive and it was [00:05:20] fun times right. And I can’t imagine my kids doing that now. [00:05:25]

Robert van Geffen: Mm.

Prav Solanki: Okay. Letting them out on the street by themselves, whether I’m a super [00:05:30] protective parent or times have changed or whatever, the environment has changed. What [00:05:35] about your kids? What’s your view on that? And, um, do they go out and [00:05:40] experience the same childhood that you had or similar?

Robert van Geffen: No no no no no. Um, [00:05:45] I think what they have is even More [00:05:50] freedom. We create a lot of space for them to explore even more. Um, [00:05:55] and, uh, I didn’t call it that, but I, my parents were [00:06:00] especially my father was, uh, he was working hard, but emotionally, I sometimes [00:06:05] he was he was there. But was he really? Right. That was a bit the thing, right? Yeah. And what I, [00:06:10] uh. And unfortunately, he passed away, uh, when I was 27, [00:06:15] and that was at the the day we got a picture from my son in the [00:06:20] belly of it, there was an echo, um, on the same day. So we showed him the picture. He [00:06:25] said, wow. Uh, he turns he turned on the light in the belly. And [00:06:30] then in the evening, uh, he unfortunately passed away. And I can talk about it quite normal. [00:06:35] But I remember him telling me that in those last days that he wanted to spend more [00:06:40] time with us, he wanted to be more present. And that that, you know, that was a bit his gift for us [00:06:45] parting. And that was also the start of me becoming a dad. [00:06:50] And the biggest gift I got from my wife at that. During those times [00:06:55] was, you know, she said, Rob, maybe you need to do this. And it was called Father Figure. [00:07:00] So blokes, men with children without [00:07:05] children, grandparents, grandfathers. Right. All kinds of other ages [00:07:10] levels in the in the society gathering every week together at the fire talking about [00:07:15] not how the weather was but emotionally about, hey, how [00:07:20] are you dealing with this? For instance, on the topic, you know, just asking, how are you [00:07:25] dealing with letting go of three sons, right? I have three sons, varying of the age of [00:07:30] 19, the oldest 17, the middle one and 13 the youngest.

Robert van Geffen: And I can admit, I [00:07:35] am really bad in letting go. If you compare robot [00:07:40] the role of a leader, letting go towards my leaders leading their teams [00:07:45] and their their members and the team inside. I’m very good in letting go. But [00:07:50] with the most precious thing of my son’s. Yeah. That’s tough. That’s tough. And, [00:07:55] um. I’m I’m I’m practising it every every day, and I’m getting [00:08:00] better at it. Don’t get me wrong. Um, but it’s an interesting, uh, reflection [00:08:05] I also have on myself. Right. So when I look at my team, how they are empowered, how I give [00:08:10] so much space, how I give them the space to try and learn [00:08:15] from the mistakes, uh, fail forward all of that. Then I look at my own sons. I [00:08:20] think I have still some room to grow. And I’m doing it. I’m doing it. Blowing [00:08:25] it. Sort of part of my natural tendency to create, to grow and reflect and, [00:08:30] uh, look at what I can improve. Not with pointing fingers [00:08:35] to anyone. What can I do to develop myself from, [00:08:40] from from the heart. The heart, the the head, the heart and the gut. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Robert. [00:08:45] This group that you just mentioned when you’re when, when when your wife was pregnant [00:08:50] with your with your first child, I’m assuming. Yeah. Um, what was this group you said it [00:08:55] was Father Fire or it was.

Robert van Geffen: It’s literally called father work. So. Father [00:09:00] fire?

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: It was hosted by an I call it an immature [00:09:05] men by, uh, who who hosts those [00:09:10] sessions. And in essence, we have the dialogue about what’s [00:09:15] on your mind. What do you feel? You know, I think, um, we as men have [00:09:20] work to do. Going beyond what you think. So, you know, we are raised by [00:09:25] this. And I think we also can work a little bit on [00:09:30] emotion. And what do you feel? Uh, how do you overcome certain [00:09:35] situations? And it’s, it’s good to do it with female, of course. Um, [00:09:40] but men are simply different. And it was a gift. I worked because [00:09:45] we all need to become mature men, and I think that is [00:09:50] as I also raise men, it’s important to do it well [00:09:55] to lead the example and particularly in this society at the at [00:10:00] the we live in, I think we have work to do on, uh, the female side, of [00:10:05] course, and the female leaders or the female that that’s happened, but also the, the men needs to look [00:10:10] each other in the eye and say, listen, this is going good. And maybe what happened [00:10:15] there wasn’t the right thing to do and call it out.

Prav Solanki: Rob. This was [00:10:20] I’m a Ryan assuming this was 19 years ago. Yes. Okay. So that [00:10:25] that to me, like if you were to tell me today that a group of [00:10:30] men get together and they talk about their emotions and their feelings today, [00:10:35] I get that right. Because men, you can see groups that have started [00:10:40] emerging? Well, I really do think as blokes we should we should be talking more right about the [00:10:45] feelings and all the rest of it. Right? Definitely 19 years [00:10:50] ago, people. That wasn’t the norm. Right now it feels like it’s [00:10:55] more of the norm. There’s various clubs. I mean, even in our organisation, we’ve got something called the mad shit, [00:11:00] right? Where, where, where we could get together as blokes and talk about our feelings and stuff. This was 19 [00:11:05] years ago, right? What was the format? How many people were there, you say, around the fire or whatever? [00:11:10] Was there a room or was it outdoors? How many people? How would the conversation go? How [00:11:15] often were you meeting outdoors? What was going on 19 years ago? For [00:11:20] a bunch of blokes to get together and talk about their feelings, because back then, [00:11:25] I can only anticipate that wasn’t necessarily the man thing or the macho [00:11:30] thing to do. Right. And where was your wife’s headspace at? To tell [00:11:35] you, I think you need to try this out. I’m really curious about that?

Robert van Geffen: Yeah. And again, [00:11:40] my wife is a bit further on on the journey of uh, of that. So I, I think it’s just [00:11:45] to, to um, this 90 years ago. So yes, it’s, it’s a long way back if [00:11:50] I went on it ever since. You know, that was the start of my, uh, uh, [00:11:55] spiritual journey on on that, uh. Yeah. No, it was, I think it was [00:12:00] weekly. We spent an evening on it and [00:12:05] it was guided. Right. So sometimes we had a topic to discuss and sometimes it was sharing. [00:12:10] So we did the talking stick. One bloke was speaking, the [00:12:15] others were listening. Mhm. Uh, and also we, we didn’t, I didn’t call [00:12:20] them blokes. It were my brothers. So you build up a connection with them and after [00:12:25] that you know I did several different uh, in those settings with, with, with other [00:12:30] brothers to, to go even deeper. So just a few years ago I went through [00:12:35] a whole year. It was a leadership course for men as well, and [00:12:40] we spent every second or third weekend on all the all the levels of, [00:12:45] uh, the chakras. So and then go deep, spend the weekend really on [00:12:50] what does it mean to be the warrior. What does it mean to be older? The male, uh, [00:12:55] call it archetypes.

Prav Solanki: I’m going to touch on that later. We’re going to bring we’re going to [00:13:00] start talking a little bit about spirituality, because you’ve just referred to something [00:13:05] that, um, touched an area of my life. More recently, you refer to the chapters [00:13:10] and more recently, when I was in Thailand, um, I went through a [00:13:15] what could have been only described as a healing experience, where [00:13:20] I can only say I was very closed minded about that previously. I’m [00:13:25] very open minded about it more recently. Right. And about aligning the energy, feeling [00:13:30] the energy in the room and allowing somebody to perform this healing on me. Right. But it sounds like you [00:13:35] got involved in that journey quite some time ago. Um, in terms of [00:13:40] the spiritual side of things and the flow of energy. Right?

Robert van Geffen: Yeah. In the end, everything [00:13:45] is energy. So when I just reflected, right, I, I had a full [00:13:50] offsite team event. Um, and we, we, we planned it [00:13:55] in every detail. The content, the location. Um, there wasn’t there was a team [00:14:00] managing it. And it was not to say the organisation which stood out that [00:14:05] day. It was really the energy. Can you imagine if you have like 60 [00:14:10] or 70 people in a room, all tuned on a similar energy? So there was just excitement. [00:14:15] It was excitement all over. And therefore my my [00:14:20] full investment in energies that I go through and I’m open, uh, [00:14:25] I give so much after that, of course, I’m completely tired and wasted, but [00:14:30] that stems out, so I’m in it. People see it. People notice it. And that’s also [00:14:35] what they take out. That was what we repeated today to the Brazilian team. [00:14:40] Food and it. It’s sort of sending the message. You know, a [00:14:45] that’s sort of the psychological safety team. I have your back always. [00:14:50] Whatever you do, even if I don’t know it, I will support you. But also [00:14:55] you show that you care about them and you give energy. And I think that is sparking. [00:15:00] I think I am very good in sparking people to [00:15:05] give that energy. And that happened also during the chat, during the coffee talk, because we [00:15:10] were into that zone and we were onto something. And I think that that sticks. [00:15:15] That’s the stickiness. Right. And then you can talk about more the, the, the [00:15:20] contents, the it and that side of the equation. But it’s, it’s about I think everything [00:15:25] is energy. And everybody has a very strong role to play in that. And [00:15:30] how and then it’s sort of how to how to shape it and how to create it and how [00:15:35] to maintain it and how to. Yeah. And and also do it in a congruent way [00:15:40] that is not just a one time off. It’s it’s consistent. You see me it’s [00:15:45] repetitive.

Prav Solanki: So so interesting. Like sometimes you sit down with people. [00:15:50] Right. And the energy’s off. Right. And it doesn’t, doesn’t necessarily mean you’re immediately repelled, [00:15:55] but the conversation doesn’t flow in the same way that it did when we sat down. Right. So there [00:16:00] was a reason why I sat down for 15 minutes and it ended up being 90. Right. And I [00:16:05] do feel that we were almost like on the same wavelength, right? There was some there was something [00:16:10] firing, there was energy in the room, and it was like the rest of the room had blurred out. [00:16:15] Okay. And me and you were communicating with each other, and we were so engaged in that conversation, [00:16:20] and the energy was very positive. And, you know, sometimes I feel that with certain people and [00:16:25] with other people, the energy just isn’t there. It’s it’s the same with public [00:16:30] speaking as well, right? Sometimes the room. The room can give you back so much [00:16:35] energy that you push that back out. Right. And sometimes something can throw [00:16:40] you off and you don’t perform as well. Yeah, there’s definitely a piece there. Yeah. [00:16:45] Um, what can you say about that and how does that impact in [00:16:50] your day to day. What’s your view on like you’ve just said now that everything is energy, [00:16:55] right. Is that how you view everything? Work like married, like children?

Robert van Geffen: Yes. [00:17:00] And I think you if you if you sort of sometimes [00:17:05] you literally feel it in your, uh, in your body. Right. If you read the room, [00:17:10] so I, I stole the tip you gave me last, uh, last week I needed to present [00:17:15] in a leadership academy course about, uh, vulnerability and, uh, [00:17:20] specifically about psychological safety. Okay. And what you told me during [00:17:25] the coffee is that you Go up early and you go into the room. Yeah. [00:17:30] And I did the same. So thank you for that. I went walking because then I had 30 [00:17:35] minutes of focussed time doing the walk. And it’s also good to get the steps in. Yeah. And I went [00:17:40] into the interview and there was only one person. It was Duran Duran Jones I think from [00:17:45] the UK team.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Robert van Geffen: But he was there standing and he was, he left me, but I was [00:17:50] more reading the room a little bit and looked at the boards, but okay. And [00:17:55] then I went out and then the team came in. And then I needed to sit on [00:18:00] a chair and I need to start talking about psychology. And they were all very anticipating [00:18:05] on the energy was quite gone. They had earnings, so I needed [00:18:10] to balance my energy also a little bit to that, but I did it based [00:18:15] on what I felt in the room.

Prav Solanki: Before they even came in or. Yeah, yeah. [00:18:20]

Robert van Geffen: Was it positive you, you know, you feel it a bit in. Yeah, [00:18:25] I think it’s a bit like you said, right? Sometimes you [00:18:30] sense a bit of what is the emotion in the room. Are they open? Are they closed? Are they excited [00:18:35] or are they done? Um, yeah. And then you need to get a little [00:18:40] bit of, uh, here. They were a little bit like demons. They were silent, but I knew a [00:18:45] couple of the folks in the room. But then you start having a bit of a dialogue. There was somebody [00:18:50] who had a Dutch girlfriend, so I triggered a bit. Hey, you. Should you speak Dutch? A little bit? So [00:18:55] it’s trying to get out of that calmness and get into a [00:19:00] state of where you think, okay, this is a good energy. And then you go into the conversation. [00:19:05]

Prav Solanki: Robyn, an area of leadership that you operate in. Okay. Um, [00:19:10] do you think part and parcel of your, of your role is controlling [00:19:15] the energy in the room and driving that energy in the room? And the reason why I say that [00:19:20] this is taking me to conversations with patience. Okay. If [00:19:25] you can inject the right energy, the right enthusiasm and the right dialogue into a conversation [00:19:30] with the patient, where you where you happen to pick up on the phone. Oh, this person’s got a Dutch girlfriend. [00:19:35] This person’s into exercise and training and so on. So I’m going to share some common ground. We’ve [00:19:40] got a connection. Right? I’m part and parcel with that when we when we talk about patient [00:19:45] treatment acceptance. Okay. Yes. There’s a metal rod that’s going in. And yes I’m going to help [00:19:50] you eat again. I’m going to help you smile again and all of that. That’s a given, right? It’s almost like we [00:19:55] can take that for granted. Okay. But the energy that’s shared between those two people [00:20:00] is really what makes that connection right? And if you can nail that piece and you can [00:20:05] formalise that peace, then your treatment acceptance will go through the roof. Right. [00:20:10] If you can connect with patients in the right way. But my question to you actually, because [00:20:15] that’s what got me thinking about that, is actually as a leader within this German organisation, [00:20:20] do you think part and parcel of your role and responsibility is injecting the right energy into [00:20:25] the conversation, into the room when you’re leading people? Or does the [00:20:30] does the room bring the energy to you? What how does that how does that how does that manifest in [00:20:35] your role?

Robert van Geffen: I think absolutely, but it’s a mutual exchange and [00:20:40] it’s more than only energy. It’s the memorable experience before, [00:20:45] during and after you leave the room. Uh, because I think that if [00:20:50] you have a leadership role, that’s just your obligation. I sense that I feel that that sort [00:20:55] of my obligation is I need to be very sensible [00:21:00] of the experience. People enter the room or during the room [00:21:05] and leave the room, because leadership only starts and ends with what happens when you leave the room. [00:21:10] What is what they talk about? And I thought the team also, which were [00:21:15] in the room because there were a few members from my team that are doing the leadership course. And [00:21:20] I was nervous.

Prav Solanki: Why?

Robert van Geffen: Because [00:21:25] I felt it’s like presenting to a group you don’t know, and presenting to a group [00:21:30] you really value. And when I build teams, it’s like almost my family. [00:21:35] So my family was in the room called those who were my leaders. Mhm. And I was [00:21:40] nervous because they are in that room and I’m just in and out because I just had a slot. [00:21:45] And then I go out. But what, what, what, what resonates then in the conversation that [00:21:50] I’m not part of is what, what is the impression I left. And I [00:21:55] want to do the best job for my leaders and my team, so that everything we do [00:22:00] as a collective is seen as a memorable experience. And that can be [00:22:05] such a session. That can be this session, that can be an ideas event we did in Cologne [00:22:10] that everybody thinks, what? Oh my god what just happened. Mhm. [00:22:15] And that they need to shake it off because it’s sticky and that they talk about [00:22:20] it like it’s a it’s a very nice memory. And yes, maybe they went through [00:22:25] a little bit of this, this cycle that they were not in the moment, that they were shaken [00:22:30] up a bit and that they are in the moment after that, uh, that activity or that trigger [00:22:35] or, you know, sometimes I also like to provoke a bit. Uh, so [00:22:40] maybe that’s the Dutch directness, right? Poke a little bit to see. Is it sticking? Or [00:22:45] maybe sometimes it sticks after a day or sometimes it’s it’s sticking [00:22:50] after the week. But at least I tried to create a wrinkle.

Prav Solanki: But [00:22:55] you said you were nervous, right? You’ve been in a position of leadership for a long time. [00:23:00] Okay. You’ve you’ve done this several times before, right? Let’s see if we talk about this one [00:23:05] session that you were a little bit nervous about because you care. You see them as family, [00:23:10] brothers and sisters. Okay. Um, but you were still nervous [00:23:15] just. Why you’ve done this before. You know it’s going [00:23:20] to go the way you think it’s going to go. What is it that brings those nerves on? Is it because you care? [00:23:25] Is it excitement? Where do the where do the nerves come from?

Robert van Geffen: Because [00:23:30] my my my own threshold is super high for myself. It’s [00:23:35] the same as I mentioned, right? Letting go of my team is different than letting go of my.

Prav Solanki: My boss [00:23:40] so wanted to come back there. I wanted to come back there. Right.

Robert van Geffen: Because it’s [00:23:45] the threshold I have on my own. Yeah, I want to just do the best. I [00:23:50] want to be the best version of myself. Every day. Every every day. In and out. Um, but [00:23:55] I know that I’m not there yet. That’s my own trajectory. I think that’s also how I. [00:24:00] How I lead, how I grow. Um, and it’s healthy. Nervous, right? If I do [00:24:05] it, I know I can do it. So my confirmation is if I am talking, [00:24:10] typically it makes sense. And typically it also resonates with people. Yeah, that’s [00:24:15] based on my experience. But that that that nervousness is also giving me the edge [00:24:20] because I like it. It’s also nice. Yeah. The sharpness. And if you are not [00:24:25] nervous anymore then you could question, do I care?

Prav Solanki: Still 100% [00:24:30] Rob. So like, you know, I’ve done so much public speaking over the years. Right? And people ask me [00:24:35] now, do you get nervous right before you step on stage, before [00:24:40] you get out in front of a crowd? Do you get nervous every single time? Yeah. [00:24:45] Have these beautiful little butterflies floating around in my chest. Yeah. [00:24:50] Yeah. Um, but it’s because I give a shit. It’s because I care about [00:24:55] the outcome. Because I want to resonate with the audience. Mhm. And [00:25:00] there’s always that. What if they don’t. What if they [00:25:05] don’t. Right. There’s always that just in the, in the back of my mind. Right. That but but but it [00:25:10] actually comes from a place of If I care, right?

Robert van Geffen: Yes. And [00:25:15] it’s also let that feeling be. And also [00:25:20] look back at it gratefully.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: Because that feeling gives you a trigger. That’s [00:25:25] why emotion gives you a trigger. It can give you a kick in the butt when needed. It can [00:25:30] give you sharpness when needed again gave you focus. It can give you gratitude. It can give you everything. [00:25:35] And so that’s why if you look at it from from that point of view, if the feeling triggers you to do [00:25:40] the best version of yourself in that moment, and you look back at it as that was, [00:25:45] that was perfect. And it sticks with the, the the recipient’s excellent. And of course, [00:25:50] you will never touch everyone. No, but at least you did it your [00:25:55] way.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: And call it being vulnerable. But I think [00:26:00] that’s why I shared it in that setting with leaders who are part of the leadership group for [00:26:05] the future of the company. Uh, vulnerability is a strength. Talking [00:26:10] about emotion is a strength. Doing it on public is [00:26:15] a strength. Creates vulnerability and anxiety, of course, but that’s also a feeling. So [00:26:20] deal with it.

Prav Solanki: And you started that journey 19 years ago, right? [00:26:25]

Robert van Geffen: I don’t know when I started. For sure, 19 years ago was when I was, [00:26:30] uh, my eyes were opened in. Oh, it seems this is a [00:26:35] normal practice, but funnily enough, and 90 years later, my son. My older son. [00:26:40] Yeah. Oh, my God, how strong he is emotionally. Honestly.

Prav Solanki: Uh-uh, [00:26:45] through through sharing vulnerabilities or or emotionally [00:26:50] strong in the sense that actually he doesn’t care what anyone thinks. [00:26:55] He’s confident, he makes his own decisions, stays in his lane. And I [00:27:00] think.

Robert van Geffen: I think raised by parents who do the work.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: I [00:27:05] think it’s it’s it’s the betting, right. They have such a safe bedding and [00:27:10] that and they have examples, right? The oldest is now the [00:27:15] youngest looks more up to the oldest than that. The old looks up to me and that’s fine, right? That’s also about [00:27:20] letting go. Letting go. I’m. But I’m quite competitive. So I can still run [00:27:25] a 10-K like he, uh. Right. But so the point of them, you need to let it go, [00:27:30] right? Speed wise, uh, physics wise. Um, but [00:27:35] that’s, I think, you know, um, parenting by. So it’s sort of you [00:27:40] lead by example by walking the talk. What [00:27:45] you do is what so you show and you do it instead [00:27:50] of, you know, you can you can.

Prav Solanki: Talk about.

Robert van Geffen: It. You need to show it.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, yeah. [00:27:55] It’s not good enough to just talk the talk. Right. You walk in the wall.

Robert van Geffen: Walk and [00:28:00] you need to do it consistently. And yeah the word is the better word is congruent. [00:28:05] I got as feedback which was quite congruent in what you say, what you do, and do [00:28:10] what you say.

Prav Solanki: So what’s the letting go? Peace with the kids? With the boys? What is it that you [00:28:15] struggle with and what does letting go actually mean? Surely it’s not letting go. It’s [00:28:20] not just letting go. That. Hey, my kid can run faster than me now, right? But, but but it’s it’s [00:28:25] it’s, you know, it’s it’s making sure that they can what survive on their own. You can let [00:28:30] go that they don’t need daddy anymore. And what is what’s your [00:28:35] what do you mean by letting go?

Robert van Geffen: I think it’s all about trusting them that [00:28:40] they will go their own way, and that they will do it in the best way they can. [00:28:45] Yeah, it it it’s it’s, uh, it’s that that [00:28:50] to me, that’s when when you talk, when you ask, what do you mean with letting go? I [00:28:55] think it’s that. Okay. And it’s funny. I don’t have it with all three. It’s with all three. A little bit [00:29:00] different.

Prav Solanki: Interesting.

Robert van Geffen: And I use it really as a [00:29:05] mirror to me. So what’s triggering you? Well, what? You can ask the question. [00:29:10] So how do I feel now? What is the thing I should not do? What is the question I should not do? [00:29:15] Is this statement that I’m going to make helpful in this situation? So it’s [00:29:20] very reflective, right? Your children are very much a mirror of your bright sides [00:29:25] and your dark sides.

Prav Solanki: For.

Robert van Geffen: Sure. And the more you go [00:29:30] deep on your darker side and again, don’t see dark as all negative, right? But the [00:29:35] more you understand the triggers, the emotions, the things that come out of [00:29:40] that, etc., the better you are as a as a human being in general. And [00:29:45] then of course, as a father, as a leader, as whatever you do in society. [00:29:50]

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: It’s like karma, right? Like [00:29:55] you had we had the coffee from Yannick at the time we were, uh.

Prav Solanki: It [00:30:00] was an interesting interlude. And, uh, it was very early on in our conversation. [00:30:05] Right. And, um, I don’t know whether you’d been over to the coffee machine and pressed the button and got yourself [00:30:10] a coffee out before you’d sat down and got your breakfast, but, um, you know, [00:30:15] Yanick came along and, um, just delivered me a flat white coffee and said, um, [00:30:20] words to the effect of especially for you, sir, or something like that. And it’s because [00:30:25] previously I’d asked him, could he get me a coffee from the espresso machine? And he [00:30:30] said, no, it was off, but then two minutes later returned and hadn’t delivered that for [00:30:35] me, and then remembered my order. And for me, that was game changing. Right? But just tell [00:30:40] me, what was your perception that I’ve sat down with Prav? This [00:30:45] waiter has just come and delivered him a, you know, a custom order. [00:30:50] Should we say what was going through your mind? And I’ll tell you what was going through my mind [00:30:55] at that point, because it’ll be really interesting to hear what your thoughts are.

Robert van Geffen: On [00:31:00] my mind. So I, I think I had one coffee only or. [00:31:05] Um. No, no, I, I think I was, I was looking at the coffee machine, which was the [00:31:10] automated, uh, the not so good coffee, uh, version, and I didn’t even [00:31:15] notice that there was a good coffee machine on the counter.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: Uh, so I when I [00:31:20] was sort of having my breakfast and you joined and I thought, oh, hey, I missed [00:31:25] completely the the good coffee machine because I could have also asked. Right.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: It’s it’s not [00:31:30] about, uh, you know, um, you can ask and then either you get a no or. Yes [00:31:35] either way, at least. So I didn’t even notice it. So for me it was like mm. Then [00:31:40] what I really liked is sort of the way you, the way the unique sort of came to you, uh, [00:31:45] because you were already. So you made a connection with him and he did it with a smile. So it was [00:31:50] almost like a pleasure for him to create a memorable experience for you, [00:31:55] for sure. Yeah. And of course, that triggered me to ask the same question. Can I have such a nice coffee as broth [00:32:00] as well? Yeah. Um, so it was a couple of. So, yeah, [00:32:05] a couple of things, which sort of I took from a bit of the blindness towards what’s [00:32:10] happening in the surrounding. If you are just going for the coffee and then the coffee machine, which is closest [00:32:15] you go for, but maybe if you have a little bit more time and you look a bit at the surrounding, maybe [00:32:20] I would have noticed the better coffee machine. Yeah. And and the way you connected with your nick. Um, [00:32:25] before and and that he remembered that, uh, and that made [00:32:30] him create that, uh, coffee for you. Uh, and, yeah, he he brought it [00:32:35] with a smile. So I think that was that was just a nice. Uh. Yeah, it [00:32:40] was it was a nice experience.

Prav Solanki: And that’s all about energy, right?

Robert van Geffen: Yeah. Because the guy was also [00:32:45] proud. And you felt it, right?

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Absolutely. Absolutely. And and from my [00:32:50] perspective, when I was looking at that the first time I asked him for the coffee, he said, no, the machine hasn’t been switched [00:32:55] on yet, so I’m afraid I can’t get you one from that machine. And two minutes later [00:33:00] he comes with a smile on his face and brings me one the first time around. I think it was the morning before. I [00:33:05] thought, what a guy. Yeah, he’s gone out of his way for me. And then the next day I didn’t even need to [00:33:10] ask him. He brought it while you were there. Right.

Prav Solanki: Exactly.

Prav Solanki: In that moment when [00:33:15] I was in company, I felt even more special than I would have done if [00:33:20] I was on my own. Even more special.

Prav Solanki: Of course. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Um. [00:33:25] And it was great that when you asked, he reciprocated as well. [00:33:30] And, I mean, it just reminded me of, you know, people who deliver amazing [00:33:35] customer service. They lead with their heart and not their title, all [00:33:40] their role. Okay? They do they do what’s right in here. And [00:33:45] even as leaders. Right. We do. You know, you know, I believe the best leaders lead [00:33:50] with the heart first and their title second for sure.

Robert van Geffen: No, no, I think [00:33:55] if you want to have an inner team resonate for the long run. I [00:34:00] think you can’t ignore. But you can’t not lead with without. You need to lead with [00:34:05] the heart because I think that is also which will click and stick with your [00:34:10] people. Don’t don’t get me wrong. I started this journey 90, 19 [00:34:15] years ago. Uh, in the meanwhile, I think we are far, far further along. Uh, [00:34:20] and also the the different generations are far further along. Right? We have a certain age. Right. And [00:34:25] we we are raised in a different way. But I think if you have a I have a very diverse [00:34:30] team. I have all genders, all age levels, all I have a very diverse team. [00:34:35] So if you don’t stick to something which is very close to your [00:34:40] heart and you just have an have an open approach with an open heart, that’s [00:34:45] what clicks. Yeah. Because you can think about it at length, [00:34:50] but people will feel people will feel the genuine in that if I come [00:34:55] into a room and I’m closed and I only have my my ratio with me, people [00:35:00] will sense that and that will never stick. Yeah. Great presentation, but did [00:35:05] it click with me? Not really. And I think that’s because of we [00:35:10] have we live in an era of AI and uh, over, over uh, [00:35:15] we have so much information to, uh, to, to process. I think you need [00:35:20] to be really mindful of how you deliver certain messages and how you differentiate [00:35:25] yourself. And again, that comes back to this, this experience, the genuine [00:35:30] gesture.

Robert van Geffen: And also, uh, the way Yanick and this coffee example gave [00:35:35] his energy to, to us. Yeah. And if you then take it back to [00:35:40] where we are. Part of dentistry becoming digital. Patients [00:35:45] are getting more exposed. We also need to make sure that we lead that [00:35:50] transformation with the heart and soul in everything we do because in the end [00:35:55] we create smiles. But getting to a smile sometimes is quite scary, right? [00:36:00] And then talking about the topic of letting go, they need to let go [00:36:05] and fully trust the dentist or us delivering [00:36:10] the product like the implant in the mouth that is sort of stable. That [00:36:15] is sort of for the long term in because yeah, it is. Yeah, it’s quite in your [00:36:20] face. Right. The, the smile it’s quite close to and it has a lot of impact on [00:36:25] your security, on the way you smile and the way you, the way [00:36:30] you the, the patient, him or herself sort of. Uh, yeah. [00:36:35] Will be present. And the industry I come from a different industry. I was more in the medical [00:36:40] technology industry. I feel that dentistry is even more close [00:36:45] to where the patient wants to be seen. Yeah. So it’s really [00:36:50] the facial expression. So it’s really close to creating this sense of security for [00:36:55] them that their smile is everlasting. And that’s the energy what we want to create I think in [00:37:00] the dentistry industry. But of course, you and I also as contributors [00:37:05] to that.

Prav Solanki: So interesting. Rob, every time I’m going to ask you another question [00:37:10] and I’ve got it in my mind what I’m going to ask you about next. Mm. You say something [00:37:15] that reminds me that I’m going to ask you that next. Without me having to prompt it or write it down and take some notes. [00:37:20] It’s a little bit wild, but I was going to ask you about letting go of your sons. Mhm. [00:37:25] And you brought it up again. So it allowed me to naturally segue into that. [00:37:30] And as you were talking I thought, right, nobody really knows what your career has [00:37:35] been. We’ve talked about your childhood, all the rest of it. I know you’ve held a leadership position [00:37:40] at Philips. We spoke at length about that, the difference in cultures and all the rest of it. But let me just [00:37:45] take us back to your career before we move on to the rest of the conversation. And [00:37:50] then you brought it back to, oh, I’ve had different roles, right? Not just in dentistry. So [00:37:55] let’s explore that. Rob. Um, just tell me. Give me a whistle stop tour of [00:38:00] your career since, you know school to where you are today. Um, [00:38:05] what have you what have you done over your career? Um.

Robert van Geffen: So I started [00:38:10] in an, uh, company, which was a country organisation, [00:38:15] um, where I was sort of, uh, responsible for marketing [00:38:20] communication events in the broader sense. It was really in a sales [00:38:25] organisation. Um, I also did sales there, launching a product, selling [00:38:30] it. Then thereafter. Um, Rob.

Prav Solanki: Before you, before you move on, I when you [00:38:35] say you did sales and you did marketing, right? Just talk to me like, what was the day to day? [00:38:40] Were you cutting your teeth in in sales and marketing, having 1 to 1 conversations [00:38:45] with customers. We leading a team at that point. Like in that, in that initial role. [00:38:50] What was your day to day like? Just to paint a picture of where you stand.

Robert van Geffen: It [00:38:55] was it was hands on. It was sort of creating events. Hands on. It [00:39:00] was doing it. It was really, really sort of straight from school. Jumping into [00:39:05] the role and just. Yeah. Doing the activity. Uh, that’s [00:39:10] talking to customers, opening the door, having the sales pitch, creating an event. If [00:39:15] competition was doing something, anticipating doing it better the same day or the day after. [00:39:20] Uh, it was hosting big events. It was at that time [00:39:25] also setting up a first call centre. There was only one laptop with internet, so it’s a bit. [00:39:30] It’s it’s different ages. Uh, we did email marketing. We created [00:39:35] segments. So it was I think it was a lot of pioneering in this in-between [00:39:40] state of becoming, uh, where digital is just starting.

Prav Solanki: And [00:39:45] were you getting involved in every facet like the the copy for the emails, [00:39:50] the the conversations, the sales pitch, the how to target particular customers, [00:39:55] what sort of campaigns you’re running, you’re in the trenches and all of that, right?

Robert van Geffen: I was [00:40:00] knee deep in the trenches, and honestly, I think it was also the best experience because I was so exposed [00:40:05] to everything. Yeah. And if you do that in that way, that’s also the way I can [00:40:10] now lead the team, because I did it, I did social media, I did social marketing, I did [00:40:15] email marketing, I did batch and blast without an opt in list, [00:40:20] I did telemarketing, I was even trained to do inbound outbound [00:40:25] calling. I did event management. Uh, of course it was not as big [00:40:30] as we have now in in the current strongman world, but for sure, I know that there’s [00:40:35] a lot of detail to manage, and I think, you know, that is also what I did in the other [00:40:40] company. Uh, you know, I was then asked for to [00:40:45] head up a digital marketing team in a Japanese company, and then also we [00:40:50] did replacement of backend systems. We did. We did integration. So it was also more techie. [00:40:55] It so so so starting with, you know, more commercial function [00:41:00] in my first role, touching everything around marketing, sales, uh services, [00:41:05] even uh, then into a more digital role where there was more connection and exposure [00:41:10] to it.

Robert van Geffen: And then I went to Philips, uh, where I did it all, but [00:41:15] also across, you know, the consumer space, the B2B space. And [00:41:20] so I did consumer lifestyle, healthcare, uh, but also a bit of lighting. [00:41:25] I separated, I was part of separation teams, I was part of acquisition [00:41:30] teams. And my last assignment was at Philips growing their direct channel [00:41:35] when I also was asked by the same company to do a reorganisation. So [00:41:40] I built a team. I was also asked to change the limit because at that time the company [00:41:45] was going through some changes. And then that was the second time strawman came [00:41:50] where I sort of was more open because honestly, due to that [00:41:55] reorganisation and as you know, how I built teams, my soul was a bit hurt to [00:42:00] call it blunt. And then I was more open to have the conversation. And, you know, [00:42:05] I thought, well, let’s try what I did before in a different [00:42:10] industry, different company, different set of people, because what really resonated [00:42:15] was the way they talked about the culture at strong.

Prav Solanki: Before we before we move on to Straw [00:42:20] and Rope. And you were Philips for 16 years, right? And [00:42:25] your last role was vice president, global head of digital marketing and [00:42:30] e-commerce health systems. You’re in charge of a large number of people, a [00:42:35] multi-million pound budget. And, you know, several years before that, [00:42:40] you were deep in the trenches writing copy for emails and doing [00:42:45] outbound and inbound sales. Right. What I want to wrap my head around [00:42:50] is what was your journey from where you were to work your [00:42:55] way up to that? Such a senior position in Philips, in charge of a huge [00:43:00] department organisation in healthcare. How did you work your way [00:43:05] up? What was the end in your mind? Just tell me this. Did you know that was going to happen? Was that always part [00:43:10] of the plan?

Robert van Geffen: So I can’t ignore that. I’m not ambitious and I can’t [00:43:15] ignore that I don’t have a dream. And some people say you’re lucky, but I think you know what [00:43:20] I, what I was and also how I coach many, many mentees. Uh, [00:43:25] so I mentor a few folks also now. And what I always did and still [00:43:30] do is sort of I take on the responsibility of my manager. And [00:43:35] then I showed that I could carry the load and I [00:43:40] delivered. And then I grew, you know, and I started with zero people. I added an [00:43:45] intern, a trainee. They became part of the team and the team built. So by doing [00:43:50] that, it’s a very humble and pragmatic way of growing from the trenches [00:43:55] to the leaders. So from the dance to the balcony, that’s also the perspective I have. [00:44:00] If I am on the balcony, I exactly know how people are dancing. So [00:44:05] I did the work and every you know, in Philip’s it was sort [00:44:10] of every few years there wasn’t a change in the plan, a change in the team, a change [00:44:15] in the role. And I, I think I, I, I’m, I’m, I’m hungry and foolish [00:44:20] at the same time and I feel forward. I learned from the mistakes very quickly and [00:44:25] I adjust. And what I think I understand quite quickly, quite [00:44:30] smartly, is sort of I play a bit of the mechanics. I call it the I know how [00:44:35] to play the matrix, so I know about essential timings, about when [00:44:40] are people talking about talents? When are people talking about [00:44:45] people? And then it’s not about being smart [00:44:50] or smarter than the others. It’s just more and more. I [00:44:55] take a certain method in my approach. I understand how the mechanics work really [00:45:00] from A to Z. I know how the company operates on [00:45:05] the financial side, from the people side, from the tooling platform, whatever side. [00:45:10] Right. And then I try to I try to steer it.

Prav Solanki: Engineer the situation. [00:45:15] Right.

Robert van Geffen: It’s engineering the situation. Yeah, yeah. [00:45:20] But also with a very, very human [00:45:25] approach. Of course it was never done with elbows. It [00:45:30] was always done with understanding also where the people came from and how [00:45:35] they are wired. Also that so it’s not only. It’s also understanding the people more deeply [00:45:40] because if I am able to call it steer [00:45:45] the belly fire, which is one of the shuttles, right. Oh my God, if all [00:45:50] those bellies are shining, then I create a halo effect and we create so much [00:45:55] impact for the company. And can you imagine in dentistry if, if, if and that happened on the ideas. [00:46:00] Honestly there was a halo effect of energy around our boot. It was like amazing. [00:46:05]

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: So it’s understanding the mechanics and use them [00:46:10] in your advantage so it will never be luck. It’s more how you guide your. Of [00:46:15] course there’s always a bit of luck, right? But that’s in any, in any in any in [00:46:20] any life. But at least I try to I try to understand [00:46:25] I try to understand how does this now work and how can I make it work [00:46:30] better and how can I make it work for my for the company I [00:46:35] work with, for, uh, for the people I am leading? And how can I how [00:46:40] can I disrupt without disruption? I think that was also the comment [00:46:45] that you are able to disrupt and change without this creating disruption. [00:46:50]

Prav Solanki: And one thing you just you touched upon there was that [00:46:55] you, um, as you progressed from one level to the next to the next, [00:47:00] what you were trying to do or what you were successfully doing was taking the workload [00:47:05] from your senior. Right. As in, as in taking whether it’s the stress, [00:47:10] the pressure, the load. Right. And that just takes me to, you know, when I hire a new team member, one [00:47:15] of the things they say is what are the progression opportunities at this company, right. How can I progress? [00:47:20] How can I grow? Uh, a candidate who’s thinking about his or her future [00:47:25] will ask that question, right? What are the progression? What’s the progression of opportunities within [00:47:30] this business. And because, you know, I’ve built fairly [00:47:35] small sized businesses. All I would say to them is this your [00:47:40] job is to make my life easier. If you make my life easier and take the load [00:47:45] away from me, you become insanely valuable to me, insanely valuable [00:47:50] to me. Right? And that that just made me think about that. Anyone who has progressed in my business, [00:47:55] they’ve made my life easier. So then I can focus on something [00:48:00] else, right? I can focus in my zone of genius. They can focus in their zone of genius, wherever that is. [00:48:05] And we can all grow together. Right. And and from your perspective, as you’ve [00:48:10] grown up, the ladder, so to speak, has your strategy been to [00:48:15] take on more than you were contracted to take on? Shall we say. [00:48:20]

Robert van Geffen: Yes.

Prav Solanki: Always, [00:48:25] always.

Robert van Geffen: But you also say there you need to be, you know, it’s also [00:48:30] to whom you report. In which context do you operate? Uh, what is the team? Uh, [00:48:35] where is their journey? But I always look at stretch. How [00:48:40] can I stretch me in favour of the team? How can I? So how [00:48:45] do you do your job? Well, to create space to stretch. And [00:48:50] I think you did it a bit more Dutch directly to say to to [00:48:55] to the higher the, the person you hire. So how can you help. So sometimes I just [00:49:00] ask, so how can you help me? How can I help you?

Prav Solanki: How can you help me?

Robert van Geffen: And how can you help me? [00:49:05] Or how can you help appear? Because in the end, it’s the success of the [00:49:10] team is never, never an individual, uh, contribution. [00:49:15] It’s always the chain of events. The chain is as strong as the the [00:49:20] broken piece, right?

Prav Solanki: Weakest link.

Robert van Geffen: Weakest link. Yeah. And that is what I always. And I never [00:49:25] talk about me. I always do it in favour. This is the team. We are one. Everybody [00:49:30] has the role, but we all want him. Um. And I think [00:49:35] we also should not be afraid of hiring, uh, smarter people than you or [00:49:40] them. Sure I have, I have oh, I have so many smart people on my team. Unbelievable. [00:49:45] However, their blindspot is my [00:49:50] is sometimes that they are very much in the trenches because they are super good. They [00:49:55] get this. I am on the balcony because I did it. What they did? [00:50:00] Maybe not to that level of extent, but I know exactly what they are after. And [00:50:05] therefore it’s also important as a leader that you set a vision. Where do you want to go? And [00:50:10] you give a lot of space and freedom for them to flow in that direction [00:50:15] without creating too much of guardrails? And then, yes, sometimes [00:50:20] you will have people to raise their hand. Hey, can I get a stretch? And some people are very [00:50:25] comfortable in what they do, but that doesn’t mean that they are doing less than the others, [00:50:30] that they are bad performers. They are just comfortable in what they do, and they are super important [00:50:35] in the whole of what the team does. So I think that we also need to be careful, [00:50:40] as I call everybody in my team a talent and everybody in my team is a leader [00:50:45] in their own regards, and everybody has an obligation to move the needle. That [00:50:50] can be by stretching, that can be polishing the cylinder. It’s [00:50:55] just a matter of where they are themselves also in their trajectory of growth. [00:51:00] Right. Not everybody is looking for a stretch, but for sure they need to [00:51:05] work their cylinder to make it as shiny as possible.

Prav Solanki: When you say, um, [00:51:10] if somebody reaches out to you and says, hey, can I get a stretch? Is [00:51:15] that someone reaching out for help saying, hey, Rob. Um. I’m stuck. I [00:51:20] need help with this problem. Is that somebody’s saying, actually, I feel like I’ve reached my plateau [00:51:25] of where I can take things and I need your help to push me further. [00:51:30] Or is that somebody who’s underperforming and you’ve identified. Hold on a minute. If this person [00:51:35] doesn’t stretch. Something needs to happen.

Robert van Geffen: I think it can be all [00:51:40] those flavours.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Robert van Geffen: And and you know, there is a benefit [00:51:45] of having a good note for people. And there’s also a drawback. And [00:51:50] my drawback, what I learned to call it manage a little bit better is [00:51:55] I start with understanding, having the dialogue, understanding where is this person coming from? [00:52:00] And indeed asking the question how can I help? After a certain [00:52:05] point in time? You also need to not be afraid of. Yeah, I always call [00:52:10] it we have we have hotseat in my team because everybody wants to join the team and everybody wants [00:52:15] to be part of the team. We are making some great impacts and what it means it’s [00:52:20] not for life, you know? It’s sort of in the moment. You need [00:52:25] to just deliver on what you are asked for. And here and there [00:52:30] also. Yeah. Stretch yourself a little bit. Right. And it’s not to make people scared [00:52:35] or something, but for sure they need to understand that the seat they have is valuable [00:52:40] for me, for the company, for themselves. Yeah. And in many cases, [00:52:45] it works like talking in that direction. In other cases, you need to talk [00:52:50] a little bit more directive and give some guardrails. Indeed. To see [00:52:55] can they can they grow. And because if you look at the industry and [00:53:00] the things we are trying to accomplish as a contributor in this dentistry ecosystem, [00:53:05] it’s huge, right? Yeah. We are all under pressure to deliver the best outcome for [00:53:10] our patients clinically. Long term longevity. But that means [00:53:15] everybody needs to be fully in.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: And all the individual contributors need [00:53:20] to be fully in. Doesn’t mean that they need to be stretched or stretched themselves to the extent. Some [00:53:25] of us, including myself, do, but that’s a choice that I take on myself, right? [00:53:30] But I lead by example. So people see okay. And this [00:53:35] is the energy again. That’s also back to energy. And this, this this leader we have [00:53:40] is full in and they and anything is possible. And that’s leading [00:53:45] with the heart as well right in that perspective.

Prav Solanki: You’ve just done it again Rob I was [00:53:50] just about to ask you about your heart. Yeah. And then you and and then you said leading with the heart. [00:53:55] You’ve prompted me, right? I’m sorry. No, it’s it’s there’s no need to apologise. It’s it’s [00:54:00] the energy is flowing in the right direction, and that’s the way I see it. But, but but, Rob, what [00:54:05] I was going to ask you is when, as a leader, when you lead with your heart, you become emotionally [00:54:10] connected with your team. There’s no two ways about it. Right. You as a human being, [00:54:15] You can’t help but if you’re leading with your heart, your emotion [00:54:20] goes into the team and into those people as human beings, right? If you can’t [00:54:25] escape that, okay. But if you find yourself in a situation [00:54:30] where a particular team member isn’t performing, or [00:54:35] perhaps even worse, you need to let them go. Having [00:54:40] helped this person grow to where they’ve got to, and now you feel like it’s [00:54:45] time for them to part or leave or whatever. Whichever organisation, whether it was in [00:54:50] in Phillips or Stroud. And how do you handle that when you’re [00:54:55] all in, as you would say, fully in with your heart? [00:55:00]

Robert van Geffen: No, no, I in Philip’s my last assignment was that [00:55:05] over Christmas, I needed to make a, make a list. Right. Because McKinsey came in and there’s [00:55:10] a book about that.

Prav Solanki: And when McKinsey comes in, right.

Robert van Geffen: When McKinsey comes [00:55:15] in, you can read the book and I will not disclose the details. I’m I’m very grateful. What Philip [00:55:20] brought me, I was I went through my cycle. I’m very [00:55:25] grateful of Philip’s. It’s a it’s a great company. They are all to something. But during that process [00:55:30] yes that was tough. And and and the way I got through [00:55:35] is, you know, this is the assignment. I do it. And it also brought me [00:55:40] a lot a lot of insights for me. Um, but just to reflect on emotionally [00:55:45] the people who were impacted because we had people who could apply on new [00:55:50] roles. And there were also people impacted. Right. And yes, they they were the ones which were friends of mine and [00:55:55] still are. Honestly, I have still connections with all of them. Rob.

Prav Solanki: But before you carry on, what [00:56:00] was the assignment or are you not obliged to say.

Robert van Geffen: I think I need to [00:56:05] release multiple people.

Prav Solanki: People.

Robert van Geffen: So [00:56:10] a significant amount of people.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Robert van Geffen: Let go of them because [00:56:15] the organisation was going from a horizontal approach to more vertical approach. Okay, [00:56:20] fine. I was heading up the horizontal team and I was part of the design [00:56:25] of the new future organisation. Uh, I landed the role there. Um, [00:56:30] but I will get there. But during that process, and I didn’t accept [00:56:35] an offer, I could also have put me on the list of, uh, impacted. And then I would get a financial [00:56:40] offer because 16 years is worth of value, and I deliberately didn’t do it. And because I [00:56:45] wanted to stay there with the team and make sure that my team in all the [00:56:50] right, uh, ways were getting the opportunity, were thought about, were talked [00:56:55] about, were having that opportunity. And if I would have taken the package, [00:57:00] then I would not have had the influence for my people. Okay. So that’s one I deliberately [00:57:05] chose for that. And then second, during the right, people were so happy that I was the messenger. [00:57:10] It was not scripted. I knew everybody in that situation. Children [00:57:15] without children. Where they lived in Amsterdam or somewhere in in abroad or in [00:57:20] the Netherlands. I knew them. And you know, the feedback I got is that although [00:57:25] it’s not the best message I could get. I’m happy that you are [00:57:30] the one. And I think that that was for me. Yeah, a relief [00:57:35] because yes, it’s super emotional if you say, listen, um, guy 50 plus, your job [00:57:40] ceases to exist and the person never worked on his network because he was just fully [00:57:45] in the job.

Robert van Geffen: Painful. Oh my God. Yeah. And I had many [00:57:50] of those conversations. But in the end, I think the only way [00:57:55] I was able to cope with that was just brutally honest from the heart, vulnerable [00:58:00] as I could be in that situation. Talking to somebody sort [00:58:05] of at the other side of the table, in plain Yeah, Dutch. It was, but [00:58:10] in plain English. Mhm. Without sugar coating. Without. Without air. Mumbo [00:58:15] jumbo. Because you you can spin it. No. Just heart to heart. This [00:58:20] is the situation. This is the reality. This is what we are able as a company [00:58:25] to support with and mind the gap. I’m also here to help you. Whatever I can do. [00:58:30] Use my network if you need a reference. And I’m still doing that, to be honest. But people [00:58:35] still reach out to me. Yeah. I can’t do it differently. And that’s how I did it. Was [00:58:40] it painful for me? Yes. Did I part in an emotional state? Yes. [00:58:45] Did they go through the cycle of grief? Yes. 16 years is not. It’s a long time [00:58:50] of a career in life. Yeah. And I. It’s almost like saying goodbye to [00:58:55] an a relative who passed away. I really went through that cycle of [00:59:00] emotional grief, frustration, anger, everything. But in the end, I’m just grateful [00:59:05] of the opportunity.

Prav Solanki: Would you say that was a low point in [00:59:10] your career, or were there the moments during your career that were. There [00:59:15] were more darker times and low moments during or during your career? [00:59:20] If you had to pick a darker times.

Robert van Geffen: I think this was [00:59:25] sort of emotionally the most. I would say the most memorable experience for me. And [00:59:30] I make it memorable because like I said, I don’t want to, uh, [00:59:35] I don’t want to have any, uh, grudge, uh, negative. Like I said, 60 years is a long [00:59:40] time. I went through my, uh, Valley of the Spurs with all the emotions again. Uh, [00:59:45] but coming out, it was also a very strong learning trajectory. [00:59:50] And sometimes I, I deliberately in my team, in my new team now sometimes say, hey [00:59:55] guys and ladies, we are making impact. We are a growth engine. We [01:00:00] are onto something. But I’ve seen different movies. And when I talk about the different movies [01:00:05] that those are those change movies. Yeah, well, I know exactly the other side, [01:00:10] but I also know how to stay on the on the bright side. And that’s to [01:00:15] your point where I started my career, where I am now, I’m just [01:00:20] super grateful and look back at all the opportunities to learn by [01:00:25] rolling off my rolling up my sleeves and being exposed to the good, [01:00:30] the bad and ugly. And I think that is a trait for a leader, because if you are willing [01:00:35] to go all in knee deep, face [01:00:40] the mud with your face forward, then you are also seeing [01:00:45] all the other sides in a in a different perspective.

Prav Solanki: So you mentioned Sherman [01:00:50] came knocking for the second time. Um, so just talk me through [01:00:55] that journey so that they must have. Not the first time, right?

Robert van Geffen: Uh, not [01:01:00] the first time, but I just got the, uh, the new assignment, right?

Prav Solanki: Okay. [01:01:05]

Robert van Geffen: After a long process, because Philip says so. There was there were two [01:01:10] things which I was able to overcome. They looked for a female leader and the person needed to [01:01:15] come from outside. Okay. And there I am, both guy from inside. [01:01:20] But I got the role and I had a very strong, a very nice interview [01:01:25] also with the current CEO. And he’s doing also a great job in turning around [01:01:30] the ship. So at that time strongman came, I thought, oh my God, [01:01:35] you know, interesting company, interesting role for sure, but oh my God, the [01:01:40] travel because it’s an Basel based company and my [01:01:45] family is in Amsterdam, close by Amsterdam in the south of the Netherlands. And [01:01:50] I thought, oh no, no, no, it looks very compelling. But then [01:01:55] I thought, no, no, not the right time. But when they came the second time, I was [01:02:00] sort of in this valley of the Spurs. A bit of an emotional state, so I was more open to [01:02:05] look at it a bit more closely. And I just started the conversations [01:02:10] and honestly, the way they looked at people that talked about [01:02:15] the opportunity, you know, it’s a C level reporting into the CEO [01:02:20] of a very strong growing company in an industry which is a [01:02:25] little bit behind me, but for sure catching up quite quickly, I thought, I [01:02:30] can learn a lot.

Robert van Geffen: Scope wise is broader. The people I talk [01:02:35] to are super energetic. Also there I read energy. Oh my god, I was in Basel. I thought [01:02:40] wow, if this is the level, you know it. The energy’s [01:02:45] just like, I don’t know, I got, I got it, stick to me. And [01:02:50] then at the end closing it properly [01:02:55] at Phillips in a in a very strong way also with all the work [01:03:00] Council conversations, everything. Um, I went to Sherman and [01:03:05] ever since, like, two years feels like four. Uh, in the beginning, I. I tried [01:03:10] to stay a little bit. I wouldn’t say disconnected with the team, but just protecting my heart [01:03:15] a little bit. But after a few months, I couldn’t, because you, [01:03:20] you you get just sucked into a very strong team with a high, [01:03:25] with a high EQ and also IQ. But you, you [01:03:30] you can’t do it differently. So you need to go full, full and open harder then also [01:03:35] because I was asked to look at the organisation right [01:03:40] with the people. And the one who hired me is now, uh, almost going, [01:03:45] he’s getting a different assignment. But he also said in the interview, he said, [01:03:50] Robert, I look at you, but you need to take care of my family.

Prav Solanki: You [01:03:55] hired you.

Robert van Geffen: It was a it was a collective. But this case, I can call [01:04:00] out his name. It’s Rainer Schlegel hiring committee. Yeah, and he said, Robert, you [01:04:05] will take over this. And I look at you and you need to you need to really [01:04:10] take care of my family. So it’s really like you get the key of his house and you need to take care of [01:04:15] it. That’s how I feel it. That’s how I felt it. And and I think energy [01:04:20] wise and approach wise and you know, he’s he’s he’s and I just [01:04:25] build on I build on the legacy he built I make it I make it a bit more broad. Right. [01:04:30] He also acknowledged that right. It’s at the right time. Different leader comes in, but [01:04:35] he’s still there and he gives me feedback. He gives me tips. He’s, uh, and I, [01:04:40] I am open for feedback. So for feedback is for me from a, from the heart. [01:04:45] And even if it’s brutally honest, if it’s from the heart, with the with the trust [01:04:50] setting in a psychological safe environment, feedback is a gift.

Prav Solanki: I had some feedback [01:04:55] from Reiner on on one of my sessions, right? Um, mana. Very few words. Um, [01:05:00] but just direct and very pleasant. Right.

Robert van Geffen: Yeah. [01:05:05]

Prav Solanki: Um, yeah. So that’s why I smiled when he mentioned his name. Um, [01:05:10] yeah. I mean.

Robert van Geffen: Yeah, he was for sure part an essential part of the hiring [01:05:15] committee. Of course.

Prav Solanki: So what’s the what’s the process? Right. Someone quite high up Phillip’s [01:05:20] vice president. Um, how does somebody like strawman first of all, find [01:05:25] someone like you? Right. Well, I’m just curious. What is the process? Is there a a recruitment [01:05:30] agency that are tasked to find Rob?

Robert van Geffen: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Is [01:05:35] that right? There’s a so a recruiter will have come to you. And then what was the process then? [01:05:40] Did you go to the recruiter? Were you headhunted? What was that? What was that process at the time and then [01:05:45] and then that initial meeting with Australia. You said you ended up in Basel. You met people, you felt the energy. [01:05:50] Just just give me a whistle stop tour of how you got the job. What [01:05:55] was that whole hiring process like? In the interview process.

Robert van Geffen: You [01:06:00] know, I think it was it. I was headhunted by a company asked by [01:06:05] Stralman to support in finding the right profile. Right. Yeah. Then I had an interview with [01:06:10] the headhunting company. Yeah. They looked already way back then. They [01:06:15] already talked a lot about. So how do you lead teams? How do [01:06:20] you how are you? So it was really about an soon after. [01:06:25] I understand that astrology has that compass. It’s all about iwe and it it’s [01:06:30] developing. It is more the content which is how you manage teams and AI is about you. Okay. [01:06:35] So they really provoked me already in that setting, right? I think then I [01:06:40] had a couple of interviews in between with HR leader, also with the CEO. More [01:06:45] teams. Okay. And then I was invited to do a a full [01:06:50] day interview Hour by hour with the the leader. So the [01:06:55] former CMO had of the important business the head of the new the new digital [01:07:00] business head of HR CEO. So it [01:07:05] was just a full day of pressure.

Prav Solanki: One after another.

Robert van Geffen: One after another. Uh, there wasn’t this [01:07:10] room. It was sort of sometimes, I mean, that room. And I remember there the the heat. [01:07:15] So I flew in was here a day and I flew out. Yeah. And I think they all had [01:07:20] different lenses to poke me. Provoke me.

Prav Solanki: What were they? What [01:07:25] were they? One on one roll. Were they one on one? Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: One on one on. Quite deep. [01:07:30]

Prav Solanki: Mhm.

Robert van Geffen: Uh, so it was about content. Some were more focussed on my expertise [01:07:35] in certain domains. Right. The content knowledge. Uh some of them were more focusing on [01:07:40] me as a leader, how I lead teams. And with Reiner [01:07:45] it was of course, about the content, but it was very much focussed on how to lead teams. Uh, who am [01:07:50] I as a person? How can I maintain the, you know, the the the the [01:07:55] the the team setting with also making changes? Uh, it’s a lot of change management. [01:08:00] Yeah. And I think it’s in the end, you know, I think everybody [01:08:05] was like, uh, thumbs up. And then you go more into the contractual [01:08:10] side of things, but, you know, that is more the paperwork. Right? For me, the most [01:08:15] important if you if you are in such a, uh, in such a situation, it’s sort [01:08:20] of, uh, yeah, it’s both sides. Right. For me, it was also being exposed to them. Yeah, [01:08:25] it’s the other.

Prav Solanki: So you.

Robert van Geffen: Also observe.

Prav Solanki: Your interviewing [01:08:30] as well. Right. I’m, I’m.

Robert van Geffen: As much.

Prav Solanki: In.

Robert van Geffen: Assessing. I’m doing the same. [01:08:35]

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: Uh, but I’m humble. Right. So it’s not the thing I talk about in that moment. But after [01:08:40] that, when I flew out and I was in the train, and then [01:08:45] I was always already called by the Head-hunter to say, they want to. They want to go [01:08:50] next round or they want to. I think what they want to make me an offer that was in the [01:08:55] train back from. So I flew from Amsterdam, from Basel to Amsterdam, and [01:09:00] in the train, the lady from the head, and which I still have a good connection with. She’s now a CMO [01:09:05] at a different company.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Robert van Geffen: We still exchange notes.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: It’s a beer brewery, [01:09:10] funnily enough, though, so we also build a good connection. So that’s [01:09:15] I can’t do it differently. Yeah. You know, it’s it’s a genuine I know she [01:09:20] had a role and I know she also is paid by putting me in.

Prav Solanki: Into that.

Robert van Geffen: Role. It went [01:09:25] a little bit deeper than that right. Yes. He also understood my situation and the travelling. And [01:09:30] I’m a family man. So it she’s I think because [01:09:35] she went so deep, I think she also was up for a change in her role. If I, if I read her a little [01:09:40] bit because she she was also authentic. She’s just also an authentic leader and now she, [01:09:45] she has a very nice model where we can exchange notes. She even [01:09:50] put me put another person forward. I saw recently who I will talk to. Yeah, [01:09:55] because I will never say no if people come to me. Robert, do you have time for a coffee? Of course. [01:10:00] Yeah. Robert, do you want to have or do you. Do [01:10:05] you like to talk about a certain opportunity or a project? Of course. [01:10:10] I never say no. Maybe that’s my pitfall as well. In the end, I’m [01:10:15] able to say no because it’s agenda wise, capacity wise, or focus [01:10:20] wise. Not the right time. Yeah, but it always starts with a coffee like we did. It always [01:10:25] starts with just a genuine A draft. Because I was also curious [01:10:30] to you because I saw your name pop up, so, uh, so regularly. [01:10:35]

Prav Solanki: Mhm.

Robert van Geffen: So I was also just curious and you know, that moment was there and it [01:10:40] was a very nice exchange of like minded folks in an industry [01:10:45] which is so interesting, and we have both different roles, but [01:10:50] on many forms, so similar. But you talk about experience. I talk about experience. [01:10:55] You talk about smiles, I talk about smiles. But we have just a different role in an ecosystem [01:11:00] where we all create a partnerships amongst each other [01:11:05] and smiles in the end.

Prav Solanki: So yeah.

Robert van Geffen: And that’s what I we need [01:11:10] to level play a little bit of we are not com petition. We are partners [01:11:15] in crime in the ecosystem creating smiles for the future. Yeah yeah. And that’s [01:11:20] what I that’s a different level of.

Prav Solanki: Collaboration and thinking right. For [01:11:25] sure.

Robert van Geffen: Collaboration. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: It’s almost like you’ve been you’ve come from one organisation [01:11:30] and you’ve been parachuted straight in to the top of the organisation [01:11:35] to fulfil an incredibly important role, a lot of pressure [01:11:40] and in charge of a lot of people. Right? Leading a [01:11:45] leading a team. Leading a lot of people. So. Um, what was the direction that you [01:11:50] were given? Were you given an assignment? Look, here’s your assignment. This is what I [01:11:55] want you to do. Change the organisation, achieve these goals, these targets, these metrics, [01:12:00] this change. What was your what is the sort of assignment [01:12:05] given to somebody at your level in such a large organisation when [01:12:10] you’re parachuted straight into that role? Was there a meeting with lots of people or was [01:12:15] it with the CEO or what was the. Tell me about that.

Robert van Geffen: Well, I think the [01:12:20] first week I landed, uh, the Monday I had lunch, uh, because it’s, [01:12:25] it’s a Swiss culture. So it’s a lot of it’s a people in essence, dentistry is a people business. [01:12:30] One is a people company. So there’s a lot of exchanges, people, uh, coffee [01:12:35] meetings, lunch. So I had a lunch with, uh, the, the CMO [01:12:40] at the time to listen to him. And that was sort of day [01:12:45] one.

Prav Solanki: And then that was right. Was that rain at the time or.

Robert van Geffen: No, no, no, the CMO was [01:12:50] the whole okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he’s not hanging up. Amaya. Yes. [01:12:55] Yeah, but he did CMO next to his, uh, to his job. But [01:13:00] there was a site, uh, it was sort.

Prav Solanki: Of a side hustle.

Robert van Geffen: Yeah. And it was implant focussed, [01:13:05] um, where my assignment is, of course, broader than that. Right. It’s, uh. Yeah, the [01:13:10] full the full ecosystem of Sherman Group. Um, so that was [01:13:15] day one. Uh, of course, I, of course needed to get to know the people. So I only had a [01:13:20] a stand up coffee chat with all the team members so that they get they get exposed. About me. What [01:13:25] I’m after that was all day one. I think in the first week I also had lunch [01:13:30] and that was a debrief with Gil. So he took me to a restaurant close [01:13:35] by and he literally, um, Gave me a very [01:13:40] clear directive of, you know, what do I need to do? Focus. But [01:13:45] he also made he also read me a little bit in the in the hiring that he knew [01:13:50] that I am very action oriented. But he said, Robert, if I can only give [01:13:55] one strong tip. Learn, understand. Medtech [01:14:00] is different than dentistry. Dentistry is different than medtech. The team you need to get [01:14:05] to know the team get to know the customers. Get to know the regions. Get to know the best. So learn, [01:14:10] learn, learn where you land to to your point where you parachuted. Um, [01:14:15] of course he he had a clear guidance on where to focus on first [01:14:20] hundred days. Uh, and he also wanted to get a first assessment after [01:14:25] a certain period on a diagnostic diagnostic on some of the [01:14:30] things I needed to tackle.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Robert van Geffen: So in parallel of sort of understanding the customers, [01:14:35] understanding the industry, understanding Where did I land? Yes, with my parachute. [01:14:40] I needed to go deep on the team because I needed to bring a team together, which was not one [01:14:45] team yet. I need to work on a diagnostic. And [01:14:50] that all where I make my deliberate choice is that I didn’t want to change the [01:14:55] the team, get people outside in, but really work from [01:15:00] within. That meant also that I needed to go deep with the people on [01:15:05] projects they managed before, and they also needed to let go a little [01:15:10] bit of their ego and kill their own darlings almost by going [01:15:15] looking at something they already hatched out before and then [01:15:20] with some fresh perspectives and thinking, also do things differently. [01:15:25] So you can imagine here you built a house. You are very proud of it. Yeah, [01:15:30] there comes somebody who comes from the outside and questions the [01:15:35] things they did and they did it themselves. So some [01:15:40] of the team members did their own diagnostic on something they created. Yeah. Looked at it again [01:15:45] because I think they did it based on trust. They trusted me.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. [01:15:50]

Robert van Geffen: And I was fully in. So I asked the question. I go deep five times, [01:15:55] why did you do it? Why did you do it? And then they came in many cases to the to [01:16:00] the realisation. Oh yeah, maybe we could have done it differently.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, [01:16:05] yeah. Um, but you’re the new guy coming [01:16:10] in telling him to do it differently. Right. So just just back to that assignment actually. [01:16:15] Right. So were you told to build and grow a team? Were you told to come [01:16:20] in and change what the team were doing? What what were the if you were to take it as [01:16:25] the broad objectives of during that lunch? Um, [01:16:30] perhaps what was was there an assignment? Was there a way? Were [01:16:35] there some broad? This is what I want you to achieve in the first 12 months. Or [01:16:40] was it just learn, learn, learn.

Robert van Geffen: No, no.

Prav Solanki: There must have been some.

Robert van Geffen: No, [01:16:45] no, it was it wasn’t a a double A4 with clearly what, what Jim wanted [01:16:50] to have me do.

Prav Solanki: He passed through at 84.

Robert van Geffen: Yeah, a double sided.

Prav Solanki: Okay. [01:16:55] What did that said?

Robert van Geffen: The first priorities in my first [01:17:00] 100 days.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Robert van Geffen: Where did we want to do? Have me focus on [01:17:05] the diagnostic. What what did they need. What it needed to contain.

Prav Solanki: Mhm. [01:17:10]

Robert van Geffen: Very clear. And that’s also where I focus on. [01:17:15]

Prav Solanki: Mhm.

Robert van Geffen: And I think that’s also respecting and the setting you [01:17:20] land in. Yeah. You know it’s the, it’s the um if [01:17:25] you are open minded you want to of course I know a lot but in the context [01:17:30] you don’t know. You don’t know a lot. So I didn’t want to be a knower. I [01:17:35] needed to be a learner. So I was very appreciative [01:17:40] of the of the initial brief.

Prav Solanki: Um.

Robert van Geffen: And honestly, some of the things are [01:17:45] still moving forward in that way. But when you really focus then on that, [01:17:50] on that, that creates also space in your head to create and design [01:17:55] the best team you can and go deeper on the people and understand where they are coming from.

Prav Solanki: And [01:18:00] so in terms of your role, how often will [01:18:05] you report to Guillaume? How often will you will you have meetings with him and what are [01:18:10] those meetings like? How long are they? What are the conversations that you have? Obviously that [01:18:15] there’s certain things that you can’t tell me. But, but, but but what’s the general context and [01:18:20] direction that you get get from those conversations. And are you reaching out to him for [01:18:25] a stretch every now and then?

Robert van Geffen: For sure. Um, but [01:18:30] I don’t think you need to reach out for John for a stretch. That’s because [01:18:35] he’s a leader with so much passion that that everybody feels feels stretched. Right. That’s also [01:18:40] how we are growing as we do. Yeah. And making impact to the towards our patients. Uh, [01:18:45] so every month I build a very strong report. So at the at the beginning of [01:18:50] the year, I set my objectives, set my priorities for the year. Um, every month I track [01:18:55] back, we have an okay framework objective, key results. We measure [01:19:00] we look at the activities, we show the progress. So every month he has a view on [01:19:05] all the things I have promised the company to deliver. Yeah. [01:19:10] And then every two months I have a, uh, a one on one. Okay. That’s [01:19:15] the routine. Uh, and I think, you know, that’s sort of how you build trust [01:19:20] is that you just do it systematically and continuously, and [01:19:25] you do it consistently. And that’s how my whole team now operates, sort [01:19:30] of every month. We know also where to report on. Uh, we look at it, [01:19:35] we look at the, uh, uh, the initiatives.

Robert van Geffen: And that’s how we manage the to make sure that the owners [01:19:40] are aware of what we’re doing. And in that report, we can also ask for support needed. What projects [01:19:45] coming or concerns we have. So it’s also a way to flag certain things [01:19:50] where we believe we need to pull the and then need to push forwards, need support. So [01:19:55] he’s very open and looking at progress. But also where does he [01:20:00] need to help. It’s an exchange. It’s really it’s more than [01:20:05] a report. It’s an exchange. But if you have it in a report fashion, [01:20:10] you can also have the time to talk about other things because you have the routine, [01:20:15] you have the discipline, and then you have time to talk about other things like scope, extension [01:20:20] or topics which are not going that smooth and where I need to support or [01:20:25] just brainstorm a little bit. Is this in line with. Is my direction of travel in [01:20:30] line with your direction of travel, or do we need to shape it a bit? Change [01:20:35] the. Yeah. Change the narrative or change the directive or change the the way we operate. [01:20:40]

Prav Solanki: So in your in your one on ones with him six times a year. Yeah. [01:20:45]

Robert van Geffen: Well at least at least at least.

Prav Solanki: Okay. So what happens. How long [01:20:50] is a one on one with the CEO strand. Right. How much time? How much face time do you [01:20:55] get? What does that look like? Is it super efficient? Time focussed? You’ve got you’ve got these [01:21:00] key things like. Look, let me into one of those conversations. Right. Give me an insight into [01:21:05] what happens in that meeting.

Robert van Geffen: So most of the time we try to do it in [01:21:10] person face to face. Yeah. Again it’s all energy right?

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: For sure. We start [01:21:15] typically on how. How are you doing? Feeling temperature. Right. I [01:21:20] already sent the report upfront. Typically he has. He prints [01:21:25] everything. He reads everything. And then I just talk through [01:21:30] the points I want to have his focus on. And then, of course, he will come back with questions. [01:21:35]

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Robert van Geffen: And these are the planned meetings. But this is sort of the ritual of the one on [01:21:40] ones. The guide, the conversation around, uh, the, the the reports. We, we create the [01:21:45] OKRs we have set, the targets we have set next to that. We have also other [01:21:50] projects and programs, and that also has dedicated time and attention of him. [01:21:55] So we meet regularly. And I think that’s also important in an industry and [01:22:00] a company which is evolving very rapidly, that you stay the course so that [01:22:05] we stay the course based on he sees monthly where are where we are aiming for [01:22:10] and how we are tracking.

Prav Solanki: Um.

Robert van Geffen: And then we also have some strategic priorities [01:22:15] which are in parallel, being managed by members of my team, where [01:22:20] he has a certain, uh, Interest.

Prav Solanki: How big is the team, Rob? So [01:22:25] just give us a little bit of scale. Right. You’re reporting to the CEO. How many people are reporting to [01:22:30] you and how many people under that? Like, how many humans are you responsible for, Rob?

Robert van Geffen: More [01:22:35] than 20. Less than 120? No. [01:22:40] My my my, um, my direct team is, um, [01:22:45] around 100.

Prav Solanki: Wow. [01:22:50]

Robert van Geffen: You know, that’s pretty sizeable, right?

Prav Solanki: And they have people [01:22:55] under them, right? I’m assuming.

Robert van Geffen: No, that’s my. That’s the full team.

Prav Solanki: That’s the full team. [01:23:00]

Robert van Geffen: But as the global marketing responsible across the company. [01:23:05]

Prav Solanki: Um.

Robert van Geffen: We touch many marketeers in [01:23:10] the rest of the organisation.

Prav Solanki: So so interesting. So just to give me just to give me a little bit of [01:23:15] context to that. Right. So, um, as an agency, we do a lot of, a lot of work [01:23:20] with with this German group writing in different areas, with different brands and things like that. Right [01:23:25] now I work with, let’s say Caroline from Claire. [01:23:30] Correct? Okay. Who is product manager? Claire. Correct. [01:23:35] Okay. Mhm. Now, indirectly, she’s part [01:23:40] of your team because she does the marketing activities [01:23:45] in and around the events for clear. Correct. And some of the initiatives and things like [01:23:50] that. Right. Is she part of that 100 team or is she outside.

Robert van Geffen: Part [01:23:55] of the extended. So I have to call it in my direct [01:24:00] responsibility is the the 100 team. Yeah. But we we create a platform of touching multiple [01:24:05] multiple. So, you know, multiple hundred people across the globe.

Prav Solanki: Gotcha. [01:24:10]

Robert van Geffen: And um, that is also where we are becoming a bit of a [01:24:15] matrix organisation.

Prav Solanki: Mhm.

Robert van Geffen: Right. So that’s why I’m not about reporting [01:24:20] lines. I’m more about how many people do we touch in the commercial marketing space. [01:24:25] Yeah. And we create this platform and we share [01:24:30] all this wisdom and knowledge in the broader scheme of things. So [01:24:35] we have direct influence that sort of the hard line. But many other, many organisations [01:24:40] are more moving into an agile shape. Right.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: And therefore [01:24:45] I’m a strong believer in creating this platform of like minded people sharing [01:24:50] the knowledge and also the direction of travel. And we call that the [01:24:55] marketing club, which is consisting out of 1000 plus people. So [01:25:00] my reach is big in that sense, right? Yeah. Um, [01:25:05] and that’s also how we are becoming a more an enterprise organisation [01:25:10] as chairman. Yeah. And don’t don’t forget that we are a very family driven organisation. [01:25:15] But we also now have 12,000 people across the globe. So we [01:25:20] are in the midst of this, uh, this change. So beyond dentistry [01:25:25] changing beyond my team evolve and beyond. We are also evolving as a [01:25:30] as a, as a as an enterprise.

Prav Solanki: Enterprise organisation.

Robert van Geffen: That deserves [01:25:35] different thinking. Uh, so I never look at of course, I care about [01:25:40] my direct influence. Right? That’s the where I need the greatest belly fire halo effect. [01:25:45] Yeah, but the reach they have in the broader community is much wider. [01:25:50] And therefore, it’s all about brand position. So we are responsible, [01:25:55] strong group and all the different brands below. And every different touchpoint [01:26:00] needs to create this compelling, memorable experience. Because if [01:26:05] a click event isn’t on par with what we do in green [01:26:10] or near, then identical entity. Yeah, customers will have an opinion, right? [01:26:15]

Prav Solanki: Of course.

Robert van Geffen: They will. And you will. You will have. You [01:26:20] need to be first time, right? There’s no other way. In a in an industry [01:26:25] so competitive as we are. It needs to be first time. Right? And you don’t [01:26:30] have a second chance.

Prav Solanki: And so one of the things that has come out from [01:26:35] my conversations when working with people across trial and across multiple brands, [01:26:40] right. We once had to do a like a HR project where I was asked to interview a lot [01:26:45] of stranded customers and stranded team members and and pull the essence [01:26:50] of what strawman is. Okay. And so so the one [01:26:55] question I asked everyone, customers and team members [01:27:00] is, I want you to repeat the following after me and finish the sentence. Okay? [01:27:05] And the question was strawman is and [01:27:10] then whatever comes out of your heart, finish the sentence.

Robert van Geffen: Yes.

Prav Solanki: Overwhelmingly [01:27:15] from team. The majority of people [01:27:20] said family. Majority of people said family. Nobody [01:27:25] else knew what the other person had said. Nobody else knew I’d asked [01:27:30] that question. The strapline is family. I’ll send you the video, Rob. [01:27:35] It’s a really powerful video, right? And then customers went on to say [01:27:40] similar things with a similar sentiment. Right. And that brings me to the topic of culture. [01:27:45] Yeah. You touched upon it when you were talking about when you were leaving Philips and [01:27:50] you were joining Strassmann. And this, this marked difference in culture. So, so I hear [01:27:55] I hear the word culture a lot when, when speaking to, to, to [01:28:00] people from Sram. And I’m not just talking about green, I’m talking about [01:28:05] purple, I’m talking about what used to be red with clear. Correct. I’m, you know, identical [01:28:10] Wherever it is. There’s this, um, there’s this central culture [01:28:15] piece, and a lot of people talk about psychological safety. In fact, [01:28:20] you’ve probably mentioned it 2 or 3 times during this conversation. But I hear it a lot. And [01:28:25] there’s one other thing which I think deserves a separate conversation, which is around this play, a learner [01:28:30] piece that people talk about, right? But before we get stuck into that, just [01:28:35] just talk to me about the culture of Stralman and why, without [01:28:40] prompting, did the majority of people say family?

Robert van Geffen: Because, [01:28:45] you know, coming from an outside where culture was on the PowerPoint. [01:28:50]

Prav Solanki: Lip service.

Robert van Geffen: Lip service? I think in strawman, it’s what [01:28:55] people really, genuinely do. If you are interviewed for a role, [01:29:00] quite senior role right from the one leading it and and he makes it a point. [01:29:05] You need to take care of my family. In, in the way [01:29:10] he could. He can do it right, quite direct and also quite energetic because he’s [01:29:15] very passionate about it, you know, that’s it. And when I was just [01:29:20] in Stralman and I had my first I.T event in Singapore. It [01:29:25] was literally seeing a family and that were partners that [01:29:30] were customers that were strong and people coming together. And [01:29:35] then that’s not lip service. That’s real. Yeah. [01:29:40] And I think coming back to where we started. Right. If people see you talk the talk and [01:29:45] walk the walk and it’s genuine, authentic and real, [01:29:50] what will they remember?

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: And [01:29:55] this family feeling I don’t know whether there are different, uh, dreams of thoughts [01:30:00] about, um, family versus, uh, it’s a working family, [01:30:05] etc.. Right.

Prav Solanki: Sure.

Robert van Geffen: And I think people have a very strong people [01:30:10] know and understand. That’s the difference. So I [01:30:15] need to, uh, that’s part of the family as well, right? The vacuum.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, yeah.

Robert van Geffen: It’s doing her job [01:30:20] to clean it, but I need to have a little bit of silence around it. But [01:30:25] that’s part of the family.

Prav Solanki: Of course.

Robert van Geffen: We. I think what what I genuinely see [01:30:30] is we treat everybody and everyone equal, whatever [01:30:35] the level.

Prav Solanki: Whatever the hierarchy.

Robert van Geffen: Whatever the hierarchy. I [01:30:40] don’t think it’s about about hierarchy. It’s more than the time people have. Yeah. Because [01:30:45] depending on the hierarchy, for instance, you ask me, right, how much time do you spend with Theo? [01:30:50] With Guillaume? Enough.

Prav Solanki: Not enough.

Robert van Geffen: Enough. Because I know when [01:30:55] he when he. He’s caring about me. He’s caring about the team. And if he needs to spend more time with me, [01:31:00] he would do. But I know he doesn’t because he needs to then focus his time on other things. [01:31:05]

Prav Solanki: And you got respect for that time, right?

Robert van Geffen: I have totally respect for that time. Yeah. But therefore I also [01:31:10] respect the time that I send them exactly what we’re doing. Pre-read super comprehensive. [01:31:15] We build it, we work it with progress. And if there’s feedback, I will know because he [01:31:20] will give it. And I think in general that’s yeah, that’s based on this [01:31:25] respect trust treating everybody the same kind of philosophy. [01:31:30] And I can yes I would I would have done I, I was already framing [01:31:35] my answer. Um what would I start with. It’s the it’s the team. It’s the people. [01:31:40] It’s the family.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: And then you go more to the innovations [01:31:45] we have, the smiles we create. So I think it’s family, the impact [01:31:50] we have on our patients. And then you look at how. And this [01:31:55] is not lip service. This is really what I see from okay [01:32:00] two years in. But this is really what we do. And you are an outsider coming in, [01:32:05] touching the family. You see it across.

Prav Solanki: That’s my observation. Yeah, across all brands, [01:32:10] right? At every level. Right. Whether it’s Steve Booth, guy Bellamy. Um, [01:32:15] you know, whoever I’m interacting with, whether I’ve been to, you [01:32:20] know, international events, local events, you know, local study groups, um, [01:32:25] it’s the same feeling, right? From both customers and, um, [01:32:30] and team members. Right. And, um.

Robert van Geffen: And I think that is [01:32:35] the stickiness factor, you know, and therefore we are so passionate about the culture [01:32:40] because if you look at the innovations, we are ahead of the game, but also competition [01:32:45] is coming.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: If you look at the way we transform dentistry, you see also [01:32:50] competition is coming. I think the unique element we have [01:32:55] is our strong bonds across the ecosystem with partners, with [01:33:00] patients, with dentists. The professionals with the [01:33:05] clinical ity. The study clubs. Yeah. And it’s genuine because [01:33:10] if it’s not genuine after a year, it will not it will not it will not end [01:33:15] well. Right. It’s sort of genuine because it’s long lasting.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: So [01:33:20] it’s the genuine in the way we engage [01:33:25] with each other is how we engage with others. And that’s what you that’s something [01:33:30] you can’t copy. It’s it’s how we hire. It’s how we wire. [01:33:35] It’s how we instruct. And that comes back to the player learner.

Prav Solanki: Tell [01:33:40] me about that. What does that mean? What does what. What does that actually mean? [01:33:45]

Robert van Geffen: Learn. So understand. Never assume. Assumption [01:33:50] is the mother of all you know. Yeah. And be played. Be [01:33:55] a player in everything you do. Meaning? Feel fast, Learn [01:34:00] fast. So it’s really this agile, above the line growth [01:34:05] mindset, which is needed to be the [01:34:10] catalyst of on the foreground of dentistry becoming. [01:34:15] Yeah, we are changing. We are shaping digital. We are shaping dentistry together in the ecosystem, [01:34:20] together with our partners, together with the DSO. You were part of. Right? We [01:34:25] are on the foreground of something, so you need to learn and play the [01:34:30] play. A learner is really part of, uh, part of the the [01:34:35] pillars on where we build our culture on.

Prav Solanki: Being [01:34:40] in such a what I would call a high pressure, high energy [01:34:45] role. Okay. And how do you stay grounded [01:34:50] and energise for for a team of 100 that you’re [01:34:55] directly responsible for, for the wider organisation reporting to the [01:35:00] CEO. And you’re in a, you’re in a what I would consider to be a very high pressure, higher [01:35:05] energy, high responsibility role. What is it that you do. Let’s [01:35:10] say outside of work to maintain your sanity, [01:35:15] right. Whether it’s um, you know, I know we were talking about sport, exercise, meditation, [01:35:20] spirituality, kickboxing. [01:35:25] Just talk me through that part of your life. Right. And where [01:35:30] are you and when and where you get the time to fit that in and how how you whether you do prioritise [01:35:35] that. Yes. Talk to me about that.

Robert van Geffen: Yeah. So. I [01:35:40] must admit, I have never been so fit in my life at [01:35:45] this point in time. With all the pressure around me and all the I’ve never [01:35:50] been so fit.

Prav Solanki: Why remind us how old you are before you, before you kick in with that? Because most people [01:35:55] reach their peak of could fitness around about 26 to 30. Right.

Robert van Geffen: I’m 46. [01:36:00]

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Robert van Geffen: And honestly, I’m as fit as I can ever [01:36:05] be. Um, and I have also a very strong routine for [01:36:10] myself. So every morning I do my, of course, my coffee [01:36:15] moment, but I also do my physical things in the morning.

Prav Solanki: What’s the morning [01:36:20] for you, Rob?

Robert van Geffen: So wake up, check if the family is doing right. Because if I’m remote, [01:36:25] I check if the family is, uh. Good morning, I say to them, good morning.

Prav Solanki: What time do you wake [01:36:30] up?

Robert van Geffen: Uh, around six.

Prav Solanki: Around six.

Robert van Geffen: Okay. Earlier.

Prav Solanki: Mhm. [01:36:35]

Robert van Geffen: Um. But I have a morning routine. Wake up. [01:36:40] Say good morning to my family. Do my exercises.

Prav Solanki: Which [01:36:45] is what? Just to just.

Robert van Geffen: Push up for the burpees [01:36:50] that I want. So, uh, jump up. You know, all of all of this cold showers. [01:36:55]

Prav Solanki: How long? How long will you. Will you sort of do? Your physical stuff for? In the morning. An hour? [01:37:00] An hour. Okay.

Robert van Geffen: Go to our afterwards gym [01:37:05] and then go to the office. So that’s every every morning I do [01:37:10] it at home, but also in, in, in when I’m sort of in Basel. Sort of from from home. [01:37:15] And then around the weekend I try to do uh, [01:37:20] uh, in, in Basel, I try to do a running running also an hour like [01:37:25] ten K or so.

Prav Solanki: Is, is, is that in, is that instead of the morning peace [01:37:30] or is it is that as well as on top.

Robert van Geffen: So yesterday it’s a bit warm to do [01:37:35] ten K added five k. And I was sweating as if I did a ten. And then [01:37:40] I did a nice swim. So tonight I will also do a bit of a swim in the rain and then [01:37:45] over the weekend, you know I have very, very active boys. My, my, my youngest son is also [01:37:50] running like ten, 12, Of five, whatever. And I just join their routine [01:37:55] and I do kickboxing typically in the morning and our against the punching bag. Um, [01:38:00] so I do three hours of physical exercise just to stay fit. [01:38:05] Uh, and then every morning do my routine because I [01:38:10] feel that’s needed. Because if you travel so much, you have so [01:38:15] much stress, pressure. Um, I think, you know, physically [01:38:20] fit is also how to compensate all that pressure. And [01:38:25] of course, you know, I have my, my routine around. Um, the mindfulness thing. Right. [01:38:30] Um, just sitting still and checking a bit where [01:38:35] you are. Where are my toes? Where are my feet? A bit of that.

Prav Solanki: Guided sort of [01:38:40] awareness?

Robert van Geffen: Yes, awareness. But it can also be entering the room by opening. Opening [01:38:45] the door. And in that moment see where you are. Okay. It can be [01:38:50] long. It can be short. I think the most important is that you do it with, um, [01:38:55] with with focus and attention.

Prav Solanki: Intent.

Robert van Geffen: Intent. Yeah, yeah. And that’s also [01:39:00] because I am now a bit more. So time is also more, [01:39:05] uh, given and sort of a factor because I have less time at home. So [01:39:10] I need to balance. Right. So if you have less time, you become more contentful [01:39:15] versus that you have more time. And then you maybe use the time not wisely [01:39:20] enough. So it’s more intentional. I do everything more intentional, more focussed, [01:39:25] more open with the heart, more creating memorable experiences. [01:39:30] From the moment you have.

Prav Solanki: How much of your time are you away from? [01:39:35] The kids? The wife? How much time are you spending away from home in your typical. [01:39:40]

Robert van Geffen: Once every week, three days a week?

Prav Solanki: Okay. [01:39:45]

Robert van Geffen: And that’s sort of normal routine. But if you add travel like [01:39:50] quarter one this year was killing. It was uh, we also reflected [01:39:55] it was a lot. It was a lot.

Prav Solanki: Conferences, events.

Robert van Geffen: These events flying over the globe, [01:40:00] including weekends, you know, because if you have a routine, it’s fine. [01:40:05] You get used to the routine and you get also used to that rhythm. Yeah. But if [01:40:10] you then have different fly out times over the weekend, in the weekends.

Prav Solanki: Different [01:40:15] time zones.

Robert van Geffen: Different time zones, you know, staying connected is hard, right?

Prav Solanki: Then of [01:40:20] course it is.

Robert van Geffen: So that’s that’s but that’s part of the the deal. [01:40:25] And that’s just part of the dialogue you need to have uh, also there with heart mind [01:40:30] you check in with yourself. You check in with your with your family, with your wife, with [01:40:35] the kids, you know, and, uh, with teenage boys, it’s fine. Sometimes they are very happy [01:40:40] that I’m not always around. There’s also physically part of my letting [01:40:45] go. Right. Because, yeah, This is also the. Sometimes things happen for a [01:40:50] reason. So this is all a part of it.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: It’s it’s manufactured it’s way [01:40:55] to that situation. Right.

Robert van Geffen: It is that and yeah that’s also [01:41:00] part of it.

Prav Solanki: Has the has the physical mental focus in your [01:41:05] life being being consistent throughout the last sort of 19 years or so of your career or is it [01:41:10] something that’s, um, more recent? What has that [01:41:15] always been a like your morning routine? You’re doing your hour of exercise, you’re going for your run, you [01:41:20] swim, you kickboxing. And is that something that’s had more emphasis more recently? [01:41:25] You say you’re the fittest you’ve ever been. So is that something that made its way into your life more recently, [01:41:30] or have you have you upped the intensity?

Robert van Geffen: I think the intensity kicked in [01:41:35] more strongly because I set myself high bars right, especially whilst I’m competitive [01:41:40] and I see my sons becoming a better version of themselves, but also becoming [01:41:45] stronger than me. So that’s why I need to see how far I can still sort [01:41:50] of carry myself.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, yeah.

Robert van Geffen: Because my my oldest son runs I think five [01:41:55] K in 18 minutes. One.

Prav Solanki: Okay. Wow.

Robert van Geffen: So I [01:42:00] and again physically I will never get there. But I want to show them also lead [01:42:05] by example. Whatever age.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: Whatever background [01:42:10] you can become fit and it doesn’t matter. Fit. Everybody needs [01:42:15] to do a triathlon or an Ironman. But if you want to, if [01:42:20] you want to grow as a human being, um, [01:42:25] and you want to sort of show what’s good and you want to become a better version, you need to [01:42:30] work it. You need to work your mental, your heart, your physical. It’s that’s why I mean, with [01:42:35] congruent, you need to work all the muscles. The ones who are visible, but [01:42:40] also the ones who are not visible but clearly have an impact on you and your and your [01:42:45] life and the way you, you, you are as a human being. And this is [01:42:50] just my way. And and I don’t say it’s everybody’s way. No, [01:42:55] but this is the way I. Yeah, this this is the way I can get my energy in [01:43:00] and can put my energy out and and and get energy in and get energy out. And [01:43:05] this is the way I balance. It’s all about balancing in the end, your [01:43:10] energy if you if you come back to the essence of energy.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Of course. [01:43:15]

Prav Solanki: And if you were to do this all over again, Rob, or if [01:43:20] you were to look back at yourself 19 years ago and give yourself [01:43:25] one piece of advice, looking back with the with [01:43:30] the knowledge, the reference that you have today, what what would you be telling yourself?

Robert van Geffen: Don’t [01:43:35] be afraid to show your emotion and talk about.

Prav Solanki: It.

Robert van Geffen: And [01:43:40] not shy away from it.

Prav Solanki: And, um.

Robert van Geffen: Be [01:43:45] honest. Yes.

Prav Solanki: And [01:43:50] building on that, as we bring this conversation to a close, Rob and I think we’re probably going [01:43:55] to need to do a part two.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Prav Solanki: Imagine [01:44:00] it was your last day on the planet, Rob.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: You [01:44:05] had your three boys by your side. They wouldn’t [01:44:10] be boys anymore. Um, but you had your loved ones [01:44:15] by your side, and you needed to leave them with three pieces of wisdom. What [01:44:20] three pieces of advice would you give them?

Robert van Geffen: I [01:44:25] would I would always sort of give them the advice. [01:44:30] Experience over, uh, experience over things.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. [01:44:35]

Robert van Geffen: I would always give them the advice. Stay [01:44:40] close to where your heart and passion is. Whatever the consequences, and [01:44:45] I would always give them the advice. Stay connected. You, the three of you.

Prav Solanki: Beautiful. [01:44:50]

Prav Solanki: Beautiful.

Robert van Geffen: Because that’s [01:44:55] the heritage, right? And that’s the halo effect.

Prav Solanki: And it means you’ve done a good job, [01:45:00] right?

Robert van Geffen: We. So my wife and me.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: Yeah, of course we. It’s all [01:45:05] about the we it’s it’s never about me. Um, but that’s also the tip my father gave [01:45:10] me at his last. He said.

Prav Solanki: Robert.

Robert van Geffen: I [01:45:15] wish I would have enjoyed it more.

Prav Solanki: Oh, really? [01:45:20] Yes.

Prav Solanki: What do you think he meant by that?

Robert van Geffen: He worked so.

Prav Solanki: Hard.

Robert van Geffen: And [01:45:25] during his time of, uh, 2 or 3 years of [01:45:30] cancer. Right. He went to the pub, he started playing. He [01:45:35] had a brilliant mind. He was a he had a photographic memory, honestly. So he was [01:45:40] good in playing cards? Yeah, because he memorised everything he knew. Every card of the four players [01:45:45] at the table. And I think he was he was enjoying life more at the end [01:45:50] than maybe during the ride. And that was just his way, right? That was his upbringing. His. [01:45:55]

Prav Solanki: His.

Robert van Geffen: Him being a father was I need to take care.

Prav Solanki: Of. [01:46:00]

Robert van Geffen: That. They are having a good life.

Prav Solanki: Mhm.

Robert van Geffen: But maybe [01:46:05] he was enjoying that last half. That last part of his life. [01:46:10] And that was, that was his gift to us. Enjoy [01:46:15] it in the moment whatever you do.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: And that’s [01:46:20] why if I’m doing it, if I’m doing this, if I’m doing whatever I, I [01:46:25] can’t be any different than me.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. And [01:46:30] then.

Robert van Geffen: Yeah. [01:46:35] That makes you vulnerable. They have therefore you need to do the work. But that also gives the energy [01:46:40] and the authenticity to whatever you do. Um, and I [01:46:45] think therefore I’m so fitting in the culture of and the family of strongmen [01:46:50] because everybody is fully in.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: That’s the that’s [01:46:55] the fun, right? Sometimes it happens for a reason and that’s why I’m here. That’s why we talk. Because [01:47:00] also.

Prav Solanki: Of.

Robert van Geffen: Course, had a coffee because I think we are raised in a certain [01:47:05] way, humble in a certain way, and always opened for learning in a certain.

Prav Solanki: Way, [01:47:10] for sure and sure.

Robert van Geffen: And yeah, that’s that’s how things [01:47:15] then come together.

Prav Solanki: Two more questions, Rob.

Prav Solanki: Oh my God. Yes. Any [01:47:20] more questions? So, um.

Prav Solanki: What would your legacy be? What would you what [01:47:25] would you how would you hope to be remembered? So Rob was.

Robert van Geffen: The [01:47:30] sentence Someone who was able [01:47:35] to trigger me and allowed me to become a better version of myself, [01:47:40] whatever the trigger.

Prav Solanki: Was.

Robert van Geffen: It can be a subtle nudge. That can be [01:47:45] a deeper question. That can be a conversation we had, that can be something [01:47:50] sparking from this session for them to think a little bit more deeper. [01:47:55]

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: So I just want.

Prav Solanki: To.

Robert van Geffen: I just want to make and [01:48:00] that’s a very, very strong stretch.

Prav Solanki: Right.

Robert van Geffen: But if I look.

Prav Solanki: Around.

Robert van Geffen: The. [01:48:05]

Prav Solanki: World.

Robert van Geffen: I don’t like polarisation. I like to be [01:48:10] in the middle where we still have the conversation.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: With your own opinion. But [01:48:15] let’s continue to have a conversation. Because if we don’t have the conversation. [01:48:20]

Prav Solanki: Where are we? Yeah. Yeah, [01:48:25] absolutely.

Robert van Geffen: And and being a leader or being in my position [01:48:30] I have influence. So when I can reach people like we have. We [01:48:35] can reach people. And that goes beyond, you know, talking about dentistry. And the innovations. [01:48:40] That goes way, way beyond sort of touching people’s lives. Yes. [01:48:45] With our innovations. Yes. Which the things you are doing? Yes, we do the things [01:48:50] we are doing as a collective, but also provoke a little bit on deeper [01:48:55] rooted systemic things, which keeps me awake at night, for instance, [01:49:00] raising my boys, being mature male participants in [01:49:05] society so that they also treat the women they touch in the right way with, [01:49:10] with the respect and dignity. Yeah, that’s also the way I look at diversity. Female, [01:49:15] male. It’s all about talents. But for sure we have our role to play as males. Of [01:49:20] course we do. And we also need to talk about it.

Prav Solanki: I think that’s important. [01:49:25] I think that’s something that you actually really surprised me at the beginning of the conversation when you [01:49:30] told me about the right, the the initial conversations. [01:49:35] What was it?

Robert van Geffen: Fire the fire. The father’s the fire.

Prav Solanki: Fire! Father’s [01:49:40] fire. I was thinking fire, brothers. Because you said they were your.

Robert van Geffen: Brothers.

Prav Solanki: In the end.

Robert van Geffen: But in [01:49:45] the end, they become brothers because you go so deep. Yeah. And [01:49:50] and after that, you know, in that year journey with those brothers. I still [01:49:55] have connection with those brothers. I can still lean on them, because if I walk with them and [01:50:00] walk and talk with them, I go outside. We have a walk. You’d [01:50:05] go so much deeper than normal conversations because [01:50:10] they know exactly about your dark side. They know exactly about your bright sides. They know exactly [01:50:15] how I’m wired from deep, deep within.

Prav Solanki: Because you’ve shown your vulnerabilities, right.

Robert van Geffen: You [01:50:20] don’t want to know. That’s that’s a separate conversation all the time. We [01:50:25] went deep. Really. We went deep. But that created a bond for life. [01:50:30]

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: For sure. And that’s also my bouncing. Some of them are not in the business where [01:50:35] I am in in a position I am in. And what they really said, Robert, it [01:50:40] was so interesting that I’ve never met somebody on your position who’s so vulnerable. [01:50:45]

Prav Solanki: Mhm.

Robert van Geffen: Um, because then I could also change a little [01:50:50] bit of their perception towards people in business, not not being emotional or vulnerable. [01:50:55] So I, I changed a little bit of their perspective. But by showing [01:51:00] how I am.

Prav Solanki: Helps you as.

Robert van Geffen: Well as me because that’s the mirror. Yeah. [01:51:05] You know what I mean. So that’s a bit of that, that legacy so that. Yeah, I don’t like to be [01:51:10] put into a box because I have a label.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Robert van Geffen: I want to be, [01:51:15] I want to be put in a box because I had a conversation.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. [01:51:20]

Robert van Geffen: And that’s about. Yeah. Play a learner. I want to understand [01:51:25] first before I judge, and I never judge because justice is a negative connotation. [01:51:30] Before I assume that I know because there’s so much deeper. People are [01:51:35] so much more rich. But you need to you need to poke [01:51:40] a little bit to get to that richness.

Prav Solanki: To tease it out.

Robert van Geffen: Write it out.

Prav Solanki: Last [01:51:45] question. Rob. Um. Fantasy dinner [01:51:50] party. You can invite only three people, dead [01:51:55] or alive. Famous? Not famous. Doesn’t really [01:52:00] matter. Who would they be and why?

Robert van Geffen: Yeah, my notes are there, but from [01:52:05] the heart. He’s the author of the book Be More Pilot. [01:52:10] The pink book. He’s a pirate. And I like to be surrounded by rebels [01:52:15] with a cause. Each one.

Prav Solanki: Mhm.

Robert van Geffen: Brené [01:52:20] Brown, the author of Dare to Lead.

Prav Solanki: Mhm.

Robert van Geffen: Because [01:52:25] that’s a book and that’s a nice mix between the two. Yeah. Yeah. [01:52:30] And the third one. Ooh that was tough right. Because I would love to see my father at the table [01:52:35] back.

Prav Solanki: I knew you were going to say that. I knew you were going to say that because. [01:52:40]

Robert van Geffen: But my wife told me, Robert, don’t go that emotional. But that’s me. I can’t, [01:52:45] I can’t.

Prav Solanki: I knew I knew you were going to say that, Rob.

Robert van Geffen: But but hold on. So yes, maybe [01:52:50] he will be there in spirit.

Prav Solanki: Mhm.

Robert van Geffen: I would prefer [01:52:55] to get, um, Da Vinci in.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Robert van Geffen: Because [01:53:00] at his time, at his age, I think it’s sort [01:53:05] of in his, in his.

Prav Solanki: In that time.

Robert van Geffen: Oh my God, how [01:53:10] can you be so innovative and disruptive. Yeah. Smart. So [01:53:15] in that mix. Right. If you have people who are here and also somebody [01:53:20] like so creative. So You know, so progressive, [01:53:25] innovative at the same table. And maybe they’re my fault. My, my my father. [01:53:30] Just being proud to see it. Maybe not as an active participant, but more to [01:53:35] show him where I am an observer. Make him proud as a fly on the [01:53:40] wall or or an energy in the room.

Prav Solanki: Is it is it important for you that [01:53:45] your dad is proud of where you are today? If he could see you now? What [01:53:50] do you think he’d be thinking? What do you think he’d say to you?

Robert van Geffen: I know he’s there because I believe in [01:53:55] in energy also on that front.

Prav Solanki: Mhm.

Robert van Geffen: Of course, you know as [01:54:00] a, as a as a son, you want to, you want to be recognised by your, your mother but also [01:54:05] from your father.

Prav Solanki: Mhm.

Robert van Geffen: And I’m sure he’s proud. In my early days when he was sick I [01:54:10] invited him for the first event I managed and he was so pretty. But he couldn’t walk [01:54:15] even, you know, he was in pain but he was there. Yeah. And that’s [01:54:20] a memory.

Prav Solanki: Of course, of course.

Robert van Geffen: And what I do with my boss. I’m so proud. You know, [01:54:25] if I talk about my boss. And again, the tip I, I don’t.

Prav Solanki: You get emotional, [01:54:30] right?

Robert van Geffen: Yeah, I get emotional. Yeah. Why? Because they are. I’m [01:54:35] so proud of them.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, they have such a [01:54:40] good compass. And yes, that’s the work we put in and that’s the showing. How how [01:54:45] to how to become a mature male. But they also do [01:54:50] so much themselves. Yeah. And that’s about letting go. Because being proud is also [01:54:55] I like to hang around with them. But being a father of [01:55:00] of of of children or a mother of children, I think the phase of trusting [01:55:05] that they have a strong compass and letting them go is a phase you need to just [01:55:10] go through.

Prav Solanki: Of course it is. Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: So that’s [01:55:15] the bittersweetness of being a parent, right?

Prav Solanki: Yeah, yeah [01:55:20] it is.

Robert van Geffen: It’s sweet and bitter at the same time. Yeah. And I can only, [01:55:25] uh. I can only, uh, take the, uh, the take the reflection [01:55:30] from that whole process. And that’s what I, what I take back into my. The way I [01:55:35] lead, the way I manage, the way I guide, the way I talk. Yes, [01:55:40] I know with my lighting. Oh, my God, we are in such a super, super emotional [01:55:45] state that yes, we talk about the good. Yes, we talk about the bad. And yes, we have [01:55:50] the ugly conversations. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. And [01:55:55] people love it. At least I love it because I don’t want to. I want to create a setting [01:56:00] where I can be the best version of myself, because if I’m the best version of myself, [01:56:05] I can also create.

Prav Solanki: Projects that projects that.

Robert van Geffen: Right? Well, that that and [01:56:10] when they when did people see that and they feel it, they also [01:56:15] edge up.

Prav Solanki: Including your kids, right? Including the boys? Yeah. [01:56:20] Of course.

Robert van Geffen: And that’s. That’s what we do.

Prav Solanki: You know, you we [01:56:25] we started this conversation about letting go. Yeah. That being a very, very difficult thing. [01:56:30] And I’ve been through that process. Right. And both of my older kids, uh, [01:56:35] one of them’s at university. My my eldest, she’s come back to live at home. [01:56:40] Okay. So we let go. She went to Edinburgh and we had [01:56:45] no idea what was going to happen next. Right. Would she find a job in Manchester? Very [01:56:50] unlikely. Very, very unlikely. Right. She did various internships. [01:56:55] And just look at it. That she landed a job in Manchester. Her dream [01:57:00] job.

Robert van Geffen: How are you doing here?

Prav Solanki: So she’s moved back home, right? And she’s living with us. Right. [01:57:05] So we let go, and now she’s come back as a completely different human [01:57:10] being. As a woman.

Robert van Geffen: Yes.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. And it’s so beautiful to [01:57:15] see that. Right. And as a father. Right. She’s come back with [01:57:20] a boyfriend. Mhm. Okay. And if [01:57:25] I had to pick somebody the character, the mannerisms, [01:57:30] the respect, the nature, she’s [01:57:35] nailed it. Absolutely nailed it right. She’s picked the perfect guy. Okay. [01:57:40] I don’t have a single thing that. And and to please [01:57:45] me to to hit that for my daughter. You the the bar [01:57:50] is insanely high. Mhm. Right. Insanely, insanely high. But she’s nailed that. But [01:57:55] but but why is that. It’s because of the values. It’s the values that we’ve instilled [01:58:00] in her as parents.

Robert van Geffen: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. So we should have had every confidence they [01:58:05] should pick the right guy or should match with the right guy. Right. But it’s it’s [01:58:10] always a worry. I still have the same worry for my younger two daughters, right? It will always [01:58:15] be there. Um.

Robert van Geffen: That’s sort of the, you know, the father [01:58:20] lion want to protect their their cubs, right? For sure. And and to your point. [01:58:25] Now you have strike. You know, you have an ace. An ace. [01:58:30] But even if it would not be an ace. Yeah, it will be all good. All [01:58:35] good, because it’s just made up for the for the process season or the, you know, [01:58:40] it’s it’s part of everybody’s journey.

Prav Solanki: Of course it.

Robert van Geffen: Is. And I think that that is sort of uh, [01:58:45] that is where we are. Right. As, as um. And that’s how I look at it. [01:58:50] It’s just a journey we are on. And if you enjoy the journey, whatever [01:58:55] the journey takes you is just, you know, be [01:59:00] grateful for what you learn from, from that process during the journey.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Yeah. [01:59:05] For sure.

Robert van Geffen: Rob. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: I just need to say thank you [01:59:10] so much for your time today, right? It is. I think this has been an extension of the [01:59:15] coffee that we had. I think we touched upon a few of the things that we discussed, and we took [01:59:20] a few things a little bit further.

Robert van Geffen: Of course.

Prav Solanki: Yes. Um, and I just [01:59:25] like to thank you for your openness. You know, at the beginning of this, before we press the record button, every [01:59:30] guest that’s been on this podcast knows what I say. I say, is there anything that you want [01:59:35] to stay away from, stuff that you don’t want to talk about or stuff that you want to avoid? Maybe [01:59:40] some stuff we spoke about over coffee that you may not be comfortable. And you said to [01:59:45] me, let’s just do it. Prav. Okay. So you’ve been an incredibly [01:59:50] open book and you’ve shared from the heart. And I think anyone who listens to this will [01:59:55] feel like they joined us for coffee. So thank you for that, Rob.

Robert van Geffen: Yes, [02:00:00] we did it. No, but thank you as well. Um, back at you, I think, uh, [02:00:05] like I said, we are on different sides in the ecosystem, System, but that’s how [02:00:10] partners work, right? So we bring you together and, uh.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Robert van Geffen: No, [02:00:15] it was my pleasure. And, uh, I look forward to, uh, version two, but. Also [02:00:20] need some food now.

Prav Solanki: Save.

Prav Solanki: Save it.

[VOICE]: This [02:00:25] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get [02:00:30] to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [02:00:35] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [02:00:40]

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to. [02:00:45]

Prav Solanki: The whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and [02:00:50] listening to what we had to say and what our guests had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value [02:00:55] out of it.

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