Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] Enlightened Online Training.com to understand how to assess a case quickly. How to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time whitening Underwhelms try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you [00:00:30] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:00:40] Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Chris O’Connor onto [00:00:45] the podcast. Chris is a dentist and latterly a dental supplier, [00:00:50] developer of dental products and an academic at one point. Chris. Yeah, um, [00:00:55] who comes from Newcastle? Did you grow up in Newcastle as well?

Chris O’Connor: No, I’m from Sheffield, but [00:01:00] I went up at 18 to do my training and I’ve not moved since, so [00:01:05] I feel fairly, fairly embedded in the North-East.

Payman Langroudi: Pleasure to have you, buddy. I mean, thanks for coming all [00:01:10] the way from Newcastle just for this.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, it’s a pretty good train. I know you Southerners don’t come up much, but we [00:01:15] don’t mind travelling.

Payman Langroudi: I tend to fly to Newcastle, so that’s a bit too far. Great [00:01:20] town though. So did you study there as well?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, so I studied. My wife was in my year. [00:01:25] We kind of, you know, we got together and then I did move back to Sheffield briefly, [00:01:30] which was a bit ill fated, which I could probably talk about later, but then went back there. [00:01:35] Then I worked at the dental hospital for maybe eight years, and then now the business is [00:01:40] kind of really embedded there and my referral network, so I can’t see us moving.

Payman Langroudi: You’re teaching in the dental hospital [00:01:45] for eight years?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, I was a clinical academic there, so I was doing a PhD. I did [00:01:50] like I used to run clinical trials, um, and I used to teach undergrads, postgrad master’s students. [00:01:55] Um, and, yeah, did that for quite a long period until around Covid. And um, [00:02:00] anyway, various things and then I left and set up incidental around that time. [00:02:05]

Payman Langroudi: So what was your sort of research topic?

Chris O’Connor: So we yeah, we were working on, um, [00:02:10] it was sponsored by three M Bentham now. And it was a they [00:02:15] have, you know, like the temporary crowns, they have that like kind of jelly stage and you place them. It was like a, [00:02:20] it designed to be a permanent version of those. So they’d increase the filler and you would like, fit [00:02:25] it um chair side. So no lab involved. And then you would um, cement [00:02:30] it with the stem. And then it was to be like a permanent crown rather than a temporary. [00:02:35] Um, so we ran like a clinical trial with, with those, like a small, you know, 20 patients followed [00:02:40] them up for a couple of years. Um, unfortunately, they didn’t, um, they didn’t do that well. So they, [00:02:45] uh, maybe you would imagine, but the the composite, just with a [00:02:50] long lever arm of a crown, it flexes too much and you get d bones. Uh, which is why. Yeah, I would go [00:02:55] for a stiffer material. If anyone’s thinking of choosing their material of choice for posterior units.

Payman Langroudi: Tell [00:03:00] me about that world, because I’ve done three clinical trials with enlighten, [00:03:05] and I found it baffling the way that that world works. [00:03:10] It’s, you know, my experience of it was that sometimes I [00:03:15] wanted the actual answer to an actual question, and the researcher would [00:03:20] give me what he thought I wanted, which was like, he ran, I don’t know, six different [00:03:25] ways of doing it, and then showed me the one that suited my product best. I [00:03:30] was amazed because I thought, oh, that would be me trying to push that angle. But [00:03:35] the researcher was was was the one pushing that angle. And I got the feeling that, you [00:03:40] know, the sort of funding imperative was [00:03:45] so like front and centre of the of their mind [00:03:50] that that was all they were interested in. And it really came out of it a bit jaded. [00:03:55]

Chris O’Connor: I mean, the universities is an interesting system, you know? Um, I mean, the universities [00:04:00] are broke in the UK, like it’s going to one of the big Russell groups is going to go bankrupt soon, [00:04:05] I’m pretty sure. Like they are in a interesting place. And yeah, you know funding [00:04:10] is huge for them. But you know I was on a, on a quite a cheap wage as [00:04:15] a PhD student and clinical teacher. So, but I, you know, I brought in a [00:04:20] quarter of a million for the trial. Um, so it was big. I didn’t obviously see any of it myself. Um, [00:04:25] but yeah, there was a they they need they need funding. Um, yeah, they [00:04:30] do, but they running a clinic, like running a clinical trial in anywhere is very difficult. You need [00:04:35] like a, you need like a critical mass of researchers. It’s so hard. You need an expert in writing, [00:04:40] um, you know, protocols because that’s huge stats. And basically, you know, we struggle [00:04:45] in the UK. You know, it might be better in different areas to have the infrastructure there. Um, [00:04:50] and so I was pretty much doing every single part of the process. And it’s, you know, it’s one of the reasons I left, really, [00:04:55] it was just I managed to finish the project, but, um, you know, it was just overwhelming the [00:05:00] amount of work that you have to go through. And then the other the other thing with clinical trials is you’re like, oh, well, the best thing for dentistry [00:05:05] would be more clinical trials.

Chris O’Connor: But actually, when you look at the cost of that and the follow up, [00:05:10] I mean, like what was the outcome for these crowns basically, did they work or not? Yeah. But [00:05:15] actually what we ended up doing was measuring how well they polished, how well they, um, how did [00:05:20] they stain? Did they, you know, patient like them. Obviously some of those things are really important. But, you know, [00:05:25] fundamentally it was just do they work or not. And when you do clinical trials, what I’ve realised is you really need quite [00:05:30] blunt measures like survival is brilliant. And the better thing to have is, is massive volume, [00:05:35] you know. So one of the things I if I was still in academia, which I’m not, I would be pushing for more like [00:05:40] practice based research, research using the computers, the computers pull the data, [00:05:45] help fund those computers, and you basically get around the Inherent inaccuracies [00:05:50] and like most of the things in dentistry, come down to operator skill. And so you’ve got [00:05:55] to get to get past that. You need massive volume. So there’s a good team in, in in the [00:06:00] Netherlands that are up down leads, which is a big researcher. [00:06:05] And they, they have these computer based practice and you know the research really cutting edge. And the thing is the [00:06:10] UK used to do that, you know with the NHS data sets from Trevor Burke and things we used to pull [00:06:15] these amazing figures.

Payman Langroudi: Imagine the data.

Chris O’Connor: Now we don’t. And now it’s just the three udas. We have no idea [00:06:20] what we’re doing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but imagine that the amount of data the NHS has.

Chris O’Connor: And.

Payman Langroudi: If they could put that [00:06:25] through some supercomputer, whatever it is.

Chris O’Connor: And the data, the data overrides the inherent [00:06:30] issues with that kind of work, because just the sheer volume makes the stats so [00:06:35] good, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: Much more. And I think that’s honestly, it’s like everyone in dentistry [00:06:40] is like, oh, we need more clinical trials. We don’t. They’re expensive. The time you do it on a new zirconia, [00:06:45] five new zirconia are out. You know, what you need is, is, is.

Payman Langroudi: My biggest issue with [00:06:50] it is it’s a weird thing. And again when we did it, this was the tension for me [00:06:55] was if we got the actual answer to an actual question, I from [00:07:00] a from a competitive perspective, I’d rather not put that trial out. Yeah. [00:07:05] Because why would I why would I tell my competitors the answer to a question I really [00:07:10] want the answer to? Yeah. Whereas mostly clinical trials are done for marketing. [00:07:15] Yeah. You know, we’re trying to put a treatment through, you know, some some corporate. [00:07:20] And they go first question where where are the studies. Yeah. And okay, I understand [00:07:25] they have to dot their I’s and cross their t’s. And the other side of it is you just said 3 a.m. spent [00:07:30] 250,000 on this trial and it got nowhere. Yeah. And so [00:07:35] in our world, mine and yours, small company world. Yeah. No way would we risk [00:07:40] that. Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: And they would have considered that post-market surveillance as well. They wouldn’t have really [00:07:45] considered it a full on clinical trial.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, they’re so giant that 250 grand for them.

Chris O’Connor: But because because they [00:07:50] already had the CE mark, they weren’t proving the concept really in their mind. It was proved. [00:07:55] And they were then doing post-market surveillance on it. But but [00:08:00] they didn’t release it because they’re so worried about it not working, you know what I mean? But the way the way these things work, like [00:08:05] the regulatory had already been covered from the lab tests. You know what I mean? So, [00:08:10] I mean, and to be honest with you, like, like three of them are absolute [00:08:15] pleasure to work with in that they are they are so strict with their ethical protocols [00:08:20] like you wouldn’t believe, like they are incredibly, I think, because they have to be.

Payman Langroudi: What you find is the bigger the brand, [00:08:25] the more.

Chris O’Connor: They have to be. And you know, they got pretty burnt. You maybe know about they had a big class lawsuit [00:08:30] about the the lava ultimate composite blocks that they got about it. I don’t know [00:08:35] about it. So in in America they launched Lava Ultimate which was a it’s a it’s still sell sell it [00:08:40] it’s a CAD cam but like a composite material. So you’d make it chair side. And one of [00:08:45] the indications was crowns, but also onlays and things like.

Payman Langroudi: A milled thing. Milled.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, but obviously [00:08:50] you don’t have to then put it in the furnace. It’s straight away. So it’s and it’s cheaper. So it’s attractive for dentists and mills [00:08:55] quicker and less work on the burr. And they look great. So they all went in [00:09:00] and all the onlays and things do okay. But the crowns don’t because again [00:09:05] the lever arm is high. So when they bite they flex and they dibond, which is what I found on my trial too. [00:09:10] So um, anyway, they had obviously lots of issues. They had a class lawsuit, and [00:09:15] I think they ended up having to pay out and they withdrew the indication for crowns. So you can still use it for onlays all [00:09:20] the other bonded restorations kind of thing, but for crowns, it’s not a good option. Um, so [00:09:25] yeah, so obviously like this was all off the back of that as well. But even regardless, [00:09:30] they’re incredibly, incredibly, um, you know, like the universities will kind of [00:09:35] do what they need to get the cash through the big companies I find incredibly ethical. [00:09:40]

Payman Langroudi: But what I mean, what I mean, though, is let’s say you’re going to come out with a new band [00:09:45] design, which you’ve done, I’ve seen many times. Right?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Now you want to sell [00:09:50] that band into Bupa for the sake of the argument? Yeah. Bupa massive brand. [00:09:55] Right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Again, very, very strict on their brand. Yeah. So they’ll send you a thing saying, okay, [00:10:00] send me the studies on this. Yeah. But my point is this the study ends up [00:10:05] being a marketing thing. So no way would you go into a study not [00:10:10] knowing that the result is going to be good, because 250 grand can’t just be thrown [00:10:15] down the drain by you. So, you know, it’s so weird because dentists constantly asking me for studies. [00:10:20] Yeah. And this world of studies doesn’t it doesn’t it doesn’t occur to them [00:10:25] that idea. Now, I don’t know what the alternative is.

Chris O’Connor: I mean, and a lot of the if you read the papers, a lot of them have these. [00:10:30] We call them the strawman strawman one. Right. So they go, oh this is the best bond because it’s better than. [00:10:35] And then they pick a bond that we know is a rubbish bond. And they’re like, well it’s better than that bond. And you’re like well was amazing [00:10:40] because that’s not the gold standard or that’s not that’s not any reference point to go from. [00:10:45] And, you know, you you see all these kind of things. I mean, research is I mean, like I [00:10:50] both love and obviously left it for a reason. I mean, the writing up, it just wasn’t for me. But, you [00:10:55] know, I definitely still have an interest in it. And definitely the people who do [00:11:00] it have a lot of respect for. It’s incredibly challenging to navigate. You know, you’re saying like, oh, well, we’ll not publish that thing. [00:11:05] You have to sign up to say that you will. You have to sign declarations before you can do a clinical trial. It’s [00:11:10] incredibly difficult.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s move on to your [00:11:15] career as a dentist. Sure. You told me before. You [00:11:20] know, you do full mouth rehabs all day. Um, how did you learn [00:11:25] to be that dentist? Like, what was your career path?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. So I graduated 2008, [00:11:30] and then I did two years as a GPT, which was like, it’s like a Newcastle scheme. [00:11:35] It’s half you do one week as an FD At the time, and then one [00:11:40] week, one week on, and then one week off and the week off. You go to the hospital and you work around [00:11:45] all the restorative disciplines, and you do a period, and then you do child [00:11:50] health and oral surgery on the second year. So, um, I did that, which was quite a good grounding. [00:11:55]

Payman Langroudi: Um, which was it?

Chris O’Connor: So that would be 2002. First two years I was graduated 2008 to [00:12:00] 2010, and then I, um, and then it was interesting because I kind of, I think I realised I wanted [00:12:05] to work in practice, um, and I felt like, ah, I really don’t think the NHS is going [00:12:10] to be for me. Um, and we had this kind of talk from Chris Barrow, [00:12:15] you know, and he just kind of like, I was like, I want to go and do private work. I want to have the clinical freedom [00:12:20] I’m never going to be able to. It’s very difficult in this environment. So I took this private job and it was a bit like a, you know, if [00:12:25] I knew what I knew now, but also I don’t think I was necessarily experienced. So I took this job back [00:12:30] in Sheffield and um, it didn’t work out. It was one of those where the NHS dentist had [00:12:35] converted his list to dent plan complete cover just before he retired. And then I went in [00:12:40] taking taking bitewings being like 16 fillings needed, you know, but.

Payman Langroudi: Also that day [00:12:45] and age.

Chris O’Connor: But also way too immature to be able to deal with those conversations, to be honest. So [00:12:50] difficult.

Payman Langroudi: Conversation.

Chris O’Connor: Difficult. And, you know, you look back, don’t you? And you’re like, you know, I was [00:12:55] I was working kind of in that job. I was like single handed. Whereas, you know, early in your career you need support. [00:13:00] So I very, very quickly I was really burnt by that. And I very quickly left. I went back [00:13:05] to working my I needed like somewhere safe. So I went back to my PhD job and I worked as [00:13:10] an NHS dentist for like six years. Um, and I was like determined. I’d sort of been [00:13:15] burnt by private. So I was like, I’m determined to make this work. Yeah. And it was okay until until, [00:13:20] you know, I started doing a day, a week at the dental hospital. I did a bit of PhD training, um, [00:13:25] and, you know, but eventually.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about that. So being this exacting kind of dentist [00:13:30] that you are, how did you manage to make NHS work?

Chris O’Connor: I didn’t, did I? So I got burnt [00:13:35] out and and I got I was really unhappy.

Payman Langroudi: I made no money.

Chris O’Connor: I mean, I was working what I [00:13:40] would do and I look back and I, you know, it’s hard, isn’t it? But I look back and I would [00:13:45] finish work. I mean, I didn’t have kids obviously at the time, but I would finish at 9 p.m. I would work straight through, [00:13:50] not write any notes to save time. And I would finish at 9 p.m. I’d buy all my own gear in which I still [00:13:55] always have done. So I could have, like I bought my own pens and I bought my own materials. I very [00:14:00] much like, pushed it as far as I could. I wasn’t perfect. It’s impossible. But I [00:14:05] did my best. And eventually, you know, you’re like, I can’t keep it up. And. But [00:14:10] at the time, there wasn’t, like loads of private jobs in the northeast. Like, it wasn’t like, like now, [00:14:15] genuinely, it’s still really hard. It’s really hard starting out in dentistry. But people I get [00:14:20] a lot of people come to me, oh, you know what to do. And there’s loads of private jobs. Just normal, [00:14:25] you know, normal, not cutting veneers, just normal happy family dentistry, which is all I wanted to do [00:14:30] anyway. At the time there wasn’t a lot and that’s why I went into the dental hospital and did academia. I thought [00:14:35] it was like the best place. I was really unhappy where I was, and I was like, well, that’s that’ll do me. [00:14:40] And that was okay until it wasn’t. And, um, you know, Covid happened. [00:14:45] The you know, I got again, I got a bit of a habit of getting burnt [00:14:50] out with it. The university is a difficult it was understaffed. But also it’s they’ve got a culture at the university [00:14:55] of being like, could you volunteer to do this? Could you volunteer to do this.

Payman Langroudi: And will kind of.

Chris O’Connor: And my problem [00:15:00] in Payman is it’s always a yes and it’s always then 100%. And you [00:15:05] can’t I couldn’t, couldn’t keep it up really. And so I left there.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about this propensity [00:15:10] for burnout. So what do you do? Do you geek out like focusing completely [00:15:15] on stuff and.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, I think I mean, I’ve just got a different I’ve got a I don’t know, I’ve [00:15:20] got an interesting relationship with work, I suppose I, I get a lot of my, like, self-worth [00:15:25] from working hard and doing a good job, probably too much at times. And I [00:15:30] always and I always have.

Payman Langroudi: Why?

Chris O’Connor: Why do I have that? I don’t know. I think it’s just from growing [00:15:35] up my family. But, you know, like I would probably say I am a [00:15:40] workaholic or borderline, and I get it. And so.

Payman Langroudi: But what’s behind it? [00:15:45]

Chris O’Connor: I mean, all my family are similar. Really? You know, my [00:15:50] brother is, um, you know, he’s very high. Well, he was very high up in Apple and, um, San Fran [00:15:55] and, um, he’s now just been, uh, he got headhunted by General Motors, so, [00:16:00] I mean, he’s. Yeah. Pretty, but I don’t know, our house at home.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about your parents. [00:16:05] I mean, was your dad a very hard working high achiever or what?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. So my mom and dad were both. They [00:16:10] were both teachers. And they were. They were, like, first from their families to go to uni. So [00:16:15] they were they were they had made a jump in social, I guess. [00:16:20] And we, we were like, we had a house that was kind of bigger than we could afford. So [00:16:25] they were. So I always remember being broke and then working a lot. Um, and [00:16:30] so, so. And they worked every single evening, so they’d finish school work, and they would work every [00:16:35] evening. Um, and my dad then was a deputy and my mum latterly was ahead. Um, my [00:16:40] dad is, um, you know, my dad, a big part of my life is, um, I’m estranged from my dad. [00:16:45] Um, he was a really difficult guy at home. Um, he had quite a controlling and [00:16:50] difficult relationship with my mum. Abusive one. And I was pretty unhappy at home, but he and [00:16:55] I haven’t been in touch with him since I was sort of 18.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, that’s a shame.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, [00:17:00] it is a shame. It’s hard. And it’s. I think it’s a lot of like, I don’t know, working hard, [00:17:05] being in control, all of these things. You know, I think obviously I’ve had to work through later [00:17:10] in life. I feel in a good space with that. But I know I have the propensity massively [00:17:15] to.

Payman Langroudi: Like being the kid of teachers. It must be sort of the expectation must [00:17:20] be quite hard. Like, what do they? Were they the kind of parents to like, massively [00:17:25] push on academic?

Chris O’Connor: No, not like, to be honest, the opposite. Oh, really? Yeah. I [00:17:30] think it’s a strange thing. And I think it’s not the worst thing when I look at my parenting. You think you can be [00:17:35] too interested in your kids lives? Yeah. My mom and dad were busy, and they led by the example, [00:17:40] you know, and they engendered in us certain expectations, I think, like, you’re going [00:17:45] to go to university, you’re going to get a good job. But there was, you know, if I, I never and like in hindsight they [00:17:50] would have helped me out financially. But they made it. We will absolutely not help you at all. [00:17:55] You know there was never you know, you’re on your own. You look after it. That’s how I felt. Probably [00:18:00] not. You know. And so and so, you know, I was like, well, if I don’t get a good job, I won’t have [00:18:05] the stuff that comes with that, and I want that. And that was, that was really other. [00:18:10]

Payman Langroudi: That gave you like an independence or self-reliance.

Chris O’Connor: I mean, they would never have told us to do revision or something like that. They’d [00:18:15] be like, well, it’s up to you to sort that out.

Payman Langroudi: How interesting man.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, it was like and they but they would [00:18:20] be working and everyone else in the house was working. So we were like, well, I’ll probably crack on.

Payman Langroudi: I’m really interested in this because, [00:18:25] you know, I come across people sitting where you’re sitting high achievers and often [00:18:30] get it with women guilt regarding, you know, how hard [00:18:35] they’re working and you know, the work life balance and then what they can do with kids and all of that. Yeah. There [00:18:40] are two things I’m kind of interested in in your story. One, I don’t know. Did you allude to your [00:18:45] dad was working so hard? That’s why the relationship ended up breaking down a little bit. Number [00:18:50] two, do you see what I’m saying about, like, what’s happened with you? [00:18:55] Kids learn by osmosis. You don’t have to literally tell them. This is lesson one. This [00:19:00] is lesson two. This is lesson three. They they learn by watching.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. [00:19:05] And that dad worked really hard. But it wasn’t that wasn’t it? I think my dad’s got us. You [00:19:10] know, he’s got some mental health issues. I think to be honest with you, I think [00:19:15] he, you know, he had issues with jealousy and things like that and, you know, narcissism. Yeah. [00:19:20] It became difficult.

Payman Langroudi: New words that we’ve learned. Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: All this stuff.

Payman Langroudi: And then they didn’t.

Chris O’Connor: Have back in the day. You’re like, yeah, you [00:19:25] know, he was just he was just a difficult guy. And then when you leave, it’s all these, you know, controlling relationships. And he’s [00:19:30] and I’m throwing these words out. But at the time he was just he was just he was just scary and [00:19:35] menacing. And I couldn’t wait to leave. Um, you know, to be honest, um, but, yeah, he did [00:19:40] work hard, but it wasn’t that wasn’t why I think he had, like, you know, I think he has he [00:19:45] has got issues with that. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But then reflect on you, the workaholic nature [00:19:50] and the work life balance and all of that. Yeah. Would you say you’re the you’re the [00:19:55] kind of person that if you didn’t work your butt off, you just wouldn’t be you?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, I think I think like [00:20:00] like I like to on the drive home, feel like I’ve given everything that day and I haven’t. [00:20:05] I find it hard to like, you know, I feel most at peace sometimes [00:20:10] when that happens. Just sometimes I’m just. I can’t give anymore. I’m too tired, you know, which is difficult. [00:20:15] Um, but that, like, you know, like, um. I was talking to my wife yesterday. Quite often on a Saturday, [00:20:20] I’ll do half a day’s work. And I quite often it’s like lab work or something I enjoy [00:20:25] a bit more, but, you know, like, to be honest with you, it’s probably quite often. It’s the thing I most want to do. I enjoy it. [00:20:30] Um, I do enjoy it. And, um, yeah, I get a lot of purpose [00:20:35] and drive from that. And, um, you know, it’s I don’t want to work all the time. And [00:20:40] occasionally I get myself in a mess. And when I worked at the university, it was very easy to do that because [00:20:45] the environment didn’t help me. Whereas in my own business, the people, the people.

Payman Langroudi: Set the.

Chris O’Connor: Agenda, they know I’ve got [00:20:50] this propensity and they are, you know, they they enable me and so [00:20:55] does my boss in, in general practice, they’re like, you need to have a minute and like, so [00:21:00] we’re better than I ever have in my life. I feel like I’m harnessing it rather than being hurt [00:21:05] by it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. As a dentist, I. I only [00:21:10] realised what I loved about the job after I stopped. But [00:21:15] I know you haven’t stopped yet, but what aspect of it really [00:21:20] drives you. Like, is it the problem solving? Is it the people part? What [00:21:25] comes to mind when I say that?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. The thing that jumped to my head is you said it was, is was workflows I [00:21:30] think workflows. I mean, at the moment, like finding the perfect workflow to [00:21:35] get someone from a where case A to B is takes up a lot of my life. Like, how do [00:21:40] I integrate face scanners? How do I integrate exocad? How do I integrate my design? How do I get [00:21:45] that process as slick as possible? And maybe like before it was, I was obsessed with [00:21:50] class two contact points. How do I make that workflow? And it’s you know, it leads very well into [00:21:55] teaching, which is once you bake a workflow, you try and make it understandable. Teaching helps me to [00:22:00] work it out.

Payman Langroudi: Organise your.

Chris O’Connor: Thoughts. Like if you said to me, why do I do a lot of teaching, which I [00:22:05] do, it’s because it’s it’s been the best way to learn for me. It’s quite selfish. I just if I teach it, I learn [00:22:10] it. If I have to work out every time I’m doing a procedure, I’m going, how am I going to teach this? It just makes and [00:22:15] that’s. And same with when we build courses. The bit I love most, I like teaching, [00:22:20] it’s great, but the bit I love most is designing the course, thinking of how are we going to build these [00:22:25] practicals to teach these key learning messages through the course? That’s the bit that, that [00:22:30] that. Does that make sense? That workflow part is what really gets me [00:22:35] going.

Payman Langroudi: But then, you know, would you say you’re more Google or more Apple? Do you know what I mean by [00:22:40] that? The Google will put a product out and then like it’s not fully finished product, but [00:22:45] they’ll just improve it, improve it, improve it, improve it, improve it as they go. Yeah. And Apple won’t put it out until they think it’s perfect. [00:22:50] Yeah. It gets in your way.

Chris O’Connor: You can’t be like yeah you can’t be like that. You know like you have to [00:22:55] like you can’t be like that in life, right? We we like when we release the composite course [00:23:00] I spent, you know, every more than everything I had at the [00:23:05] time on the equipment and everything. Setting it up. We made all these bespoke teeth. They cost a fortune. We had to buy 100 [00:23:10] at a time because we were bespoke. I was well so far in before we’d even sold one place. Yeah, [00:23:15] yeah. Yeah. Um, and so we got it as good as we can, but we have iterated that every single [00:23:20] course for three years. You know, some things haven’t. So I put everything [00:23:25] together as best as I could, but there was no like there was no way I would get it perfect. [00:23:30] This is enviable. Um, and so, you know, I don’t like accepting it’s [00:23:35] not gonna be perfect, but it can’t be. Nothing is. And great is the enemy of good. You know.

Payman Langroudi: It really is. [00:23:40] It really can be. I’m thinking of Depeche, you know. He. He wants perfection before [00:23:45] he puts it out. And it takes him years to write.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. The training centre. Yeah. So [00:23:50] the training centre we built for the for the courses, um, you know, when we built it, it was [00:23:55] okay. And I spent the whole next year making it better. It was like, you know, it probably was a minimum, like, [00:24:00] we put everything we could in, but it was a minimal viable product when we released. And anyone who came on those first courses, I’m [00:24:05] sorry that the, you know, sorry we had things where like the, the water bottle [00:24:10] would suddenly spray off and, uh, I mean, we learned a lot about phantom [00:24:15] heads, and every single thing pretty much got remade that we did originally because [00:24:20] everything we realised wasn’t quite right. So yeah, I always innovating.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [00:24:25] go into the clinical a little bit. I mean, you guys are known [00:24:30] for the tour VM.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a Russian thing, right?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah it is. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:24:35] did that go when everyone started sanctioning Russia and not buying from Russia? Did you continue [00:24:40] or did you stop?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, it was scary. I mean, it’s still so. The medical devices have never been sort [00:24:45] of prohibited. We pay an extra. We have to pay an extra duty charge, like a tariff. Um, [00:24:50] so we’ve been paying the tariffs forever, you know? Um, but it was very difficult because that was our [00:24:55] that was our main product. So we we the reason the whole reason we set up the business was because [00:25:00] I loved the tour bands and they were incredibly hard to buy at the time. There was loads of fake ones on the market [00:25:05] on Amazon. You couldn’t you just there wasn’t a reliable dealer you could buy them from. And I was trying to buy them [00:25:10] in for my master’s students at the time, and it was just impossible. And that’s what led us to contact [00:25:15] them again and again and again. You know, these things are until they finally said yes, we could supply them. [00:25:20] So we bought a bunch. Then almost immediately, we set the shop up and Covid [00:25:25] happened. So it was a great start. Then, you know, we had some good.

Payman Langroudi: Incidental, solid win just before [00:25:30] Covid. Covid.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, we launched in February and Covid was what, April. [00:25:35] So it was.

Payman Langroudi: Really quite new.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. Yeah it was a tough start. And then we we I mean we sold [00:25:40] like £500 a month, you know, nothing when it was closed. And then um, [00:25:45] I’m quite friendly with George DeSantis. He was in my year below me at uni. And, [00:25:50] um, you know, I’m quite well I know a lot of people in the, in the, in the [00:25:55] field as you do. And, um, anyway, you know, he was really helpful. I was like, look, man, how do you use it? I’d [00:26:00] never been on any social media platform before. Then I was like, how do you use this thing? And he, you know, like 1 [00:26:05] or 2 things from him. And suddenly we were selling a grand a month. Two grand a month. And then by [00:26:10] the January we’re doing like 20 K. And I was really unhappy with my [00:26:15] time in the dental hospital. And so it kind of became, you know, viable [00:26:20] to not not entirely, but I decided to give it like a year or two of my career to try [00:26:25] and take this thing off. But we we’d started with Trivium, and that was our excuse. That still is [00:26:30] our.

Payman Langroudi: Were you just a one man band at that point?

Chris O’Connor: So interesting. So the the plan was I [00:26:35] would help pick the products, but I was way too busy at the dental hospital, so I was just going to help them pick them. [00:26:40] My buddy Seb, who still he he hates dentistry passionately [00:26:45] and has he was in my ear. He absolutely hates it. He’s a great guy, hates it. And he had a private practice that [00:26:50] he owned that he hates and hated. And he just. So he came to me maybe a year before we set up [00:26:55] and said, look, could we do an online teaching platform now, I’ve done a little bit of online teaching from the university. [00:27:00] I was like, hell no, I’ve tried this. It takes forever and your stuff gets [00:27:05] nicked instantly. I’m like, not interested. But I’d remembered that he’d approached me like, [00:27:10] I want to do something else. So I was like, look, I need someone who’s going to do the the logistics, [00:27:15] which is what he does still now. And I’ll pick the products. And then my buddy, uh, Nigel [00:27:20] Jones was the third, third person we started with. And he was, uh, kind of [00:27:25] had he has a couple of practices and he was going to be a business guy as well. Uh, and Nigel kind of [00:27:30] never really did too much with it. And now it’s just the two of us who run it, um, just the way it worked [00:27:35] out. So, um. Yeah. So.

Payman Langroudi: So Seb is a partner?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. So we’re both co-owner, [00:27:40] um, 50% each. Um, so I’m the CEO. Ceo, and he does, you know, I mean, [00:27:45] but but when we started, it kind of got he was doing [00:27:50] the deliveries from his practice at lunchtime. And then quite quickly he couldn’t. And [00:27:55] so, uh, but he wasn’t ready to, um, sell his practice. He was trying [00:28:00] to sell it, but he, you know, he couldn’t just walk away. And then at the same time, his son got diagnosed with [00:28:05] a brain tumour. Oh my goodness. Yeah. He’s like four years old at the time. [00:28:10] And then he had to take some time out. Went to gym and he had like amazing treatment like this [00:28:15] proton anyway. So basically I took it for like the first, [00:28:20] like I left the uni and then I probably gave it like a year or two. And it was difficult because I wasn’t very [00:28:25] well at the time. But then I got that going, um, and then um, then eventually he [00:28:30] sold the practice. He then took over the ops, and then finally I could get back into clinical dentistry because I’d had to [00:28:35] take I mean, I really reluctantly took off 2 or 3 years. I love clinical dentistry, but [00:28:40] I.

Payman Langroudi: Three years.

Chris O’Connor: Of, uh, I think when you count in, like, how little I did [00:28:45] in Covid. Yeah. Um, um, and then I looked at starting and then [00:28:50] that was when Zach got poorly. And so I had to leave that job, and then I waited till the summer. [00:28:55] Um, and then it was really fortunate because friends of mine in the year above were opening a [00:29:00] squat. And, um, they have a really nice, uh, it’s called Newcastle Advanced Dentistry. It’s [00:29:05] probably the main referral place in the northeast. And so they had the squat. So I just slotted in and it [00:29:10] was my lucky break really.

Payman Langroudi: Did you. I took five years off when we started enlighten. [00:29:15] I remember the first ID block when I got back was so stressful.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah it [00:29:20] was I was I, I it’s funny, my wife’s just going back into clinical dentistry at the minute. So I’m like, she’s like [00:29:25] I can really emphasise, you know, and the thing about the uni is I did do some clinical sessions, [00:29:30] but a lot of the time, you know, you were, you were like I did the clinical trial, I was doing some, but I wasn’t doing heavy volume [00:29:35] for like, I mean I love like I love it now, like when I’m doing the work, like [00:29:40] I like, I mean, I’m not the best at most technical dancer. I’m, I’m gonna hold my own. But [00:29:45] I feel like near the top of my game. And I love that, you know, I that [00:29:50] is, you know, I, you know, when you’re doing it like it’s all those protocols, whatever. What do I love most, you know, and you [00:29:55] just it just works and you’re and you think and whenever you’re doing a procedure when it’s going well, [00:30:00] I think all you can do is think about the millions of times it wasn’t. Do you know what I mean? And you get [00:30:05] a deep margin and you go, right. I know exactly how to manage this. I’m going to do some gingivectomy. [00:30:10] I’m going to do this. I’m going to do that. I’m going to do a two stage matrixing. I’m going to get these DME bands that we’ve developed. I’m going [00:30:15] to Bam. And, you know, it’s just like, uh, I think because of the struggle, [00:30:20] it’s all the more enjoyable.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: You know, the fight is what makes it.

Payman Langroudi: I think that level [00:30:25] of mastery that you’re talking about there, it takes a minimum of ten years.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. So [00:30:30] when you when you got it, you know, a lot of people starting out, like, I like [00:30:35] plenty of times thought about packing in dentistry, you know what I mean? As much as I loved the thing, it’s just so hard, [00:30:40] you know? And it’s so demoralising when every day is open. Margins and [00:30:45] complaints. Whereas now, you know, not that we ever get complications, but they’re [00:30:50] rare because I know what to look for. Uh, I, I take my time. I have the time [00:30:55] not to rush. And if if it’s not going right, I’ll run late until it’s right, because there’s [00:31:00] nothing more expensive in dentistry than redos and emergency appointments. And I’ve learned that.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:31:05] where would you say you’re weak in dentistry? Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: Um, I am [00:31:10] a fairly average oral surgeon. I’m not bad. I do surgical extractions and stuff. Uh, but I, [00:31:15] I don’t, I tell you what I’m not good at is, like, complex medical histories and [00:31:20] stuff like that. Um, I very much lean on. We’ve got a consultant, oral surgeon, and, um, a guy called Will Henderson, [00:31:25] who’s a very, very good. He does a lot of emergency care and, like, he’s brilliant. So I [00:31:30] lean on them. As soon as it’s anything, I’m like, I don’t know what I’m doing. I’m terrible with kids [00:31:35] right now. Like, I know the real bare minimum. I have very few planned patients. Like, [00:31:40] I have like a couple of kids I see. And I constantly have taken photos and going, what should [00:31:45] I do? And I don’t I’ve never launched any orthodontics or any aligners. [00:31:50] And so my worst case is if they need that. I very much lean on my colleague Sarah, who’s excellent. Um, although [00:31:55] funnily, on the train down I’m doing this orthodontic online course at the minute, which is not [00:32:00] because I want to do it, I don’t, I just want to understand it better. Um, and I don’t do any I’ve never done implants. I don’t [00:32:05] know any implant work. So I do like crown lengthening and stuff like that. But I’ve never done implants. And again, I’m [00:32:10] just thinking I might learn how to restore them because I’m doing quite big, big combination cases and I’m planning [00:32:15] it and going, I want them there. And then we get to the end and it’s like three crowns, two implants, [00:32:20] and I want to do them all in one set shot to the lab. So I was like, well, I’m going to have to learn that. And [00:32:25] so no implants, no ortho, no kids. But the other things, you know, they’re [00:32:30] my areas.

Payman Langroudi: What about the soft side?

Chris O’Connor: The patients. I’m [00:32:35] decent. I had a lot of help with when I. When I tell you what I tell you, the thing about that is, when I [00:32:40] worked in NHS dentistry, I had this opinion, which I’m ashamed of now, [00:32:45] but I was like, I don’t have any time. So I either have time to do the treatment well or to be [00:32:50] to give you to.

Payman Langroudi: Be friendly.

Chris O’Connor: To give you time. Yeah. And I would always choose [00:32:55] to do it well. And I was like, I will build this wall of impenetrable notes, that [00:33:00] I will stay here all night, and I will do everything perfectly. And I can see why [00:33:05] I got into that. But it’s it’s totally different to how I am now. Like, I’m aware of that in me. [00:33:10] Whereas now I think I, you know, I give myself a lot of time. I don’t perform well under stress [00:33:15] and I know that about myself. So I give myself time and I think I do pretty. Yeah. Pretty good on that. [00:33:20] I wouldn’t say I think it’s something I’ve had to learn and work hard on. Um, I’m pretty good at, like, [00:33:25] I’m pretty good with other professionals, you know, like, um, teaching and stuff. I’m pretty good on [00:33:30] that. But I think sometimes with patients, I wasn’t always patient, you know, with them of finding [00:33:35] ways to explain it to them. And I’ve had to work on that.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s so important, man, because [00:33:40] we all know dentists who are technically brilliant and their patients don’t realise [00:33:45] it. And then the opposite, we see all the time, right? I had a boss. My [00:33:50] goodness, this guy was maybe the most charming, maybe the most charming guy I’ve ever come [00:33:55] across. Just a wonderful. Like, every time you. If you had him in the room, he’d [00:34:00] be the centre of attention. Wonderful. Wonderful character. Yeah, but the work was, [00:34:05] you know, it wasn’t. It wasn’t negligent. It wasn’t that he [00:34:10] was just old. Yeah, yeah, he was just on the edge of retirement. And I [00:34:15] mean, to be fair, I was young and, you know, at the other side of things, latest, [00:34:20] latest protocols and and I was like, just this guy like, what do you [00:34:25] remember direct.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The direct. It was like it was like light. [00:34:30] Like it was almost.

Chris O’Connor: I think about you. Is it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Like composite [00:34:35] ionomer thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That would stick to everything. And he would just direct everything. He [00:34:40] would just every single thing would be a direct front and back.

Chris O’Connor: I used to do like he just [00:34:45] used to do everything with like, um, maxim, like dual cure resin cement. It just build up the teeth with that, you [00:34:50] know? I mean, he like, where I work, the guy is like 60 patients. And his diary, you [00:34:55] know, the colour in your diary was blue, but it was all red. And he and his kind of thing was like, [00:35:00] he just see them and didn’t charge anyone, like, ever. I don’t think he could charge anyone by the end, because he was so afraid of [00:35:05] a complaint, because he hadn’t read any notes for 60 years, or not 60, but you know what I mean. And he was like, [00:35:10] you know, and he was a he could be a brilliant dentist. But I think that was the system just wore him down. Like [00:35:15] when you go from I mean, I didn’t work in out of service days, but it was all about having high numbers because that’s where [00:35:20] you got the capitation fee. Then you go to Udas, where that’s like almost the opposite of what you wanted from, from from [00:35:25] a purely business point of view. And you couldn’t, but you couldn’t suddenly change how you work with people. You’ve been [00:35:30] doing it for for 20 years. And I think he that was really tough.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so interesting because like, you’re you’re [00:35:35] obsessed by workflow when it comes to particular procedure. This cat, [00:35:40] the one I’m telling you about, was obsessed by patient experience. Yeah, yeah. And [00:35:45] that itself was workflow. Yeah. When this happens do this. When that happens do this. And [00:35:50] he’d gone private in 64.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: In a seaside town. Yeah. [00:35:55] And all the top people in the whole area were his patients. And the insight I [00:36:00] got from him, man, he used to go off on his boat, and I used to treat his patients. [00:36:05] And his price was. It was a private practice, but his price was like triple mine. And [00:36:10] he used to give everyone this 10% discount. Yeah. So I’d see his patients and then [00:36:15] I’d go, well, you know, I’ll also give you the 10% discount. And the patients would be over the moon. Over [00:36:20] the moon that I’d honoured this 10% discount at three times the price.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. [00:36:25]

Payman Langroudi: I mean.

Chris O’Connor: So it doesn’t come naturally. So we like I’ll give you a few examples [00:36:30] of that. One of the things is on the website, we try and make the prices as low as we can, but we charge the shipping [00:36:35] at the price that the shipping costs us. Yeah. It’s like £10. But I’ve got to pay staff, I’ve got to pack it [00:36:40] and we’ve got the Fedex fee. Right. But people just want free shipping. But if I put the free shipping on I’d have to [00:36:45] load the prices on everything. Yeah. You know, because some of the items we do are very cheap. But you know, and [00:36:50] I’m like, everything would be it would be more expensive, but I think people would prefer it. But my head [00:36:55] just can’t go like it’s crazy because we’d have to like, you’d have to build in these [00:37:00] like extra fees really to cover the shipping because it has to be paid for somehow, right?

Payman Langroudi: So you [00:37:05] are you a numbers guy?

Chris O’Connor: Uh, I’m not like I was going to come to you, but like [00:37:10] the other one who’s big patient journey, but does it in a number. You had Zach Kara on here. He’s a pal of mine.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing, [00:37:15] amazing.

Chris O’Connor: But he takes it, like. Love it. Next level. And Alan’s been really good. Alan. [00:37:20] Alan Bergman, who I know you’ve had on a lot. Yeah. He works [00:37:25] in a very nice that private practice in Cornwall. And he really helped me when I went into [00:37:30] private practice to give me his journey as they came in. You know, how to do the photos, [00:37:35] how to do that. And you know what that was? That was a I learned it from him.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:37:40] had to find I had to find the episode numbers so that we can direct people to one of my favourite episodes. Alan really [00:37:45] enjoyed that.

Chris O’Connor: He didn’t mention me enough. I should have done that. I listened to the whole thing was [00:37:50] like one incidental plug right at the end. I was like, this is. I told him as well. I was like, this is. He was like, oh, [00:37:55] I plugged it. I was like, yeah, a little bit.

Payman Langroudi: That’s funny.

Chris O’Connor: Um, no, it was good. Um, they’re going to [00:38:00] be. I’ve been going on about wanting to come on here pretty much since he was on.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Chris O’Connor: Oh, yeah. Because [00:38:05] like, we all teach together and stuff, but they always I’m always like, oh, I’d love to do that. Dental Leaders. [00:38:10] And they’re like, Chris, you’re not really a leader, though. You’re more of a manager. Manager. And and they they’ve [00:38:15] used this to taunt me for the last three years. So I, um. Yeah. It’s nice to.

Payman Langroudi: Ask, [00:38:20] are you a numbers guy? I’m not. Yeah. My my partner, he is. [00:38:25] And so when you run the numbers, you realise that this is what I was asking you [00:38:30] about. Product positioning.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. You realise that that that notion of lowering [00:38:35] the price of the product that you can, you can run it through a spreadsheet. Yeah. [00:38:40] So if I drop the price of the product by £20, what happens. And [00:38:45] it’s extraordinary what happens. Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: We’re pretty. One of the things is we price [00:38:50] where we can and that means there’s not really any flex. So, um, you know what? I [00:38:55] tell you what I hate. I hate the, you know, that thing where you want to upgrade your mobile phone and they give you a price [00:39:00] and you’re like, I know this isn’t the price. And we have to go through this intricate dance of me ringing you and you [00:39:05] going, well, is it the press? And they go, well, there is something we can do, Mr. O’Connor. And, you know, you’re like, you have to ring around. [00:39:10] Same with insurance. And I’m like, I hate that. So the price is the price is the price. We could we’ve got very little [00:39:15] we can do on it and that’s it. So we get, uh, you know Kohl’s. Can you give me a you know and they used [00:39:20] that thing of they will ring. And also that ringing round that negotiation takes time [00:39:25] that costs money. And it’s annoying. So we’ve always been like we do [00:39:30] it literally. That is the best price we can. And whether you’re a corporate or an individual you will [00:39:35] get that same price. Like if you buy an extraordinary volume, potentially we do a small amount, but [00:39:40] that’s pretty much it. We have an education discount. We give, you know, again, you will have the same right. People get in [00:39:45] touch with me all the time, three days before their first course. Can I have half the world for free? [00:39:50] You know, and it’s like, well, we have to cover our costs when we run our courses. [00:39:55] So I think it’s probably fair that you do the same, right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: Um, but yeah, we don’t we don’t [00:40:00] really, uh, I’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Got a couple of bugbears in that in that area. One that same [00:40:05] dentist will then five minutes later tell a patient you get what you pay for. Um, which [00:40:10] that’s, that’s one. But the second one, my worst my the call I hate [00:40:15] the most. And they seem to send it to me when this call comes in is they’ll say, sell [00:40:20] me your course. Yeah, sell me mini smile makeover. And I’ll say, what [00:40:25] do you mean? And then he’ll say, yeah, yeah, well, I’m considering either course or your course. [00:40:30] So tell me why I should go to yours. And it just pisses me off. Because [00:40:35] if you if you’re if you’re like a serious dentist, you go to both, right? You go to in fact, you go to all seven of [00:40:40] them, right? You know.

Chris O’Connor: These people. I’ve never. I’ve never like I. I didn’t like [00:40:45] the people you get. And they’re like, on a Sunday morning, they’re like, can you give me a call? Oh, this guy ring me the [00:40:50] other day. I won’t say who it is. Obviously. He goes, give me a call. I go, I teach a lot. I’m a big deal in [00:40:55] dentistry. I was like, well, I’ve never heard of you, but I live in Newcastle. I’m quite insulated. So like, [00:41:00] you have all these people on the podcast, I’ve never heard of them. I’m sure they’re massive, but we live in a bubble up there. [00:41:05] I go, well, I’ve never heard of you, but brilliant. And he goes, well, I will promote your like cure to everyone you know [00:41:10] I will do that. So what’s your price if I buy 18 of them for my course and I go, well, to be honest, [00:41:15] mate, we do it the best price we can. It’s a big volume to get you 10% off. That’s the best I can do. And [00:41:20] you can tell it’s just not what he really wants is them for free. And so we have this hour phone [00:41:25] call of him being like going on and all you can do for me and I’ll get you in to do. I’ve got this thing going [00:41:30] on and on. And then he goes, finally gets around to, okay, so I’ll just take one then, which is what he wanted all [00:41:35] along.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Chris O’Connor: Just wanted the lowest price. Give me one for free. So massive volume to get the price. I’m like, [00:41:40] okay, well, if it’s just one, it’ll be the price that they’re at. Won’t it? And then he’s like, okay, I’ll leave [00:41:45] it. And I’m like, well, thanks for taking up the hour of my time up on my Sunday, you know. And [00:41:50] because he had my number to ring me and I was like, you know, you don’t want a p p p people off, but [00:41:55] some people have got some brass neck and then you work with other people if you have.

Payman Langroudi: The opposite, do.

Chris O’Connor: You ever work with and [00:42:00] you’re like, I go the other way. I’m like, no, no, no, I will give it you for free because [00:42:05] you’re not like pushing. You’re not standing on my neck all the time. Like, I will go out of my way [00:42:10] to help you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I find that there’s there’s a few of our users who’ve been with us for years [00:42:15] and years who’ve never once said, give it to me cheaper. And [00:42:20] coincidentally, uh, the nurses are empowered to buy. They [00:42:25] don’t have to go off and get, like, permission and all that and some of the most successful practices as well. [00:42:30] I mean, like, properly in their areas, the most successful practices. I mean, it’s not a coincidence, right? [00:42:35] The guy, the guy trusts people enough to give them that responsibility. By the way, pay their bills [00:42:40] on time. These are simple things, right?

Chris O’Connor: Be a pleasure. Be a pleasure to work with. Yeah. And [00:42:45] you, you will like. You know, I got this corporate who we buy from, and they’re, [00:42:50] like, haggling me all the time for an extra discount. And I’m like, the thing is, the discount is having to put up with you [00:42:55] because we have to chase every invoice. We have to do all of this. Any discount I could [00:43:00] provide you is swallowed up with the extra admin you give me. I was like, no, if [00:43:05] anything, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Charge you more.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, charge you more because you’re a pain in the bum. You know, you’re [00:43:10] an absolute pain in the bum. There’s no discount because you, as the people who pay on time, they’re a pleasure [00:43:15] to deal with. They’re polite. You’re like, you know what? You’re so low maintenance that it’s. Yeah, [00:43:20] fine. You know what I mean? I like I’m very like, you know, it’s my we’re a very small [00:43:25] business. We can you know, it’s funny, isn’t it? Like it’s not quite the same, [00:43:30] but you can to a degree. You choose who you want to work with, right? Um, I mean, you know, an online shop, [00:43:35] not so much, but definitely the people who we engage with more. You have some, you have some say. And as a dentist, [00:43:40] I’m very much, you know, um, you know, I only have so much time and [00:43:45] I want to I love it’s nothing better than taking someone with a broken down mouth and giving them an amazing mouth, you know? [00:43:50] And and it’s a pleasure to do, but it’s a it’s a real pleasure when they’re lovely, you [00:43:55] know, it is just the best thing in the world. And so if anyone’s not a real pleasure, they’re [00:44:00] taking the space of someone who is. And I’m fully booked, so you know what I mean. They’ll get a higher price. They just will. [00:44:05]

Payman Langroudi: And the amazing thing is that, you know, all right, we all work for money, but most [00:44:10] dentists work for that genuine thank you that a patient will give you at [00:44:15] the end of treatment. Yeah. Like that thing. If that thing didn’t exist, [00:44:20] dentistry would, wouldn’t be anywhere near. It’s such an interesting. It’s just it’s just a thank you. There’s [00:44:25] nothing more or less to it than that. Just.

Chris O’Connor: And just a bit of, like, you know, a little bit of, like, understanding [00:44:30] that things don’t go right or like, you know, never am I going to do a full mouth rehab About every single everything [00:44:35] goes to plan. It’s just not. I’ll say it in the next part. I say like within this I put some contingency [00:44:40] money, you know, I don’t want to come back to you and go, I need more money. So if one of the teeth needs a root filling, [00:44:45] fine. If I take it off and it’s broken down, it needs an implant. I can’t cover that, [00:44:50] you know? But within reason I will be, as I have done, a price that will cover [00:44:55] that to a degree, you know, and that’s how I, you know, I do it very like, to be honest with you, I’ve [00:45:00] kind of like when I go back to my early days of being like this, like this note heavy monster. Now, [00:45:05] I do it a lot on trust and I, but I think, you know, touch wood. I’ve had less. I [00:45:10] don’t have a lot of complaint issues because of that. You know, I didn’t just get to have [00:45:15] the treatment. I’d be like, you know, Zach’s got these gateway, Zachary’s got these gateways. They have to get, you know, we’re going to do a consult. [00:45:20] Then I’m going to do two planning sessions. They’re going to have to commit. It’s non-refundable. Those like by the time [00:45:25] we’re going there, I’ve already met them for 2 to 2 hours. You know, we’ve chatted a lot, you [00:45:30] know, like I wouldn’t dive in on a rehab with someone you know, off the bat. No way. You know, [00:45:35] um.

Payman Langroudi: Makes sense.

Chris O’Connor: I want to sound them out. I want to feel like, you know, I can trust you. And [00:45:40] it’s reciprocal, right? You can trust me if it goes. Occasionally things don’t go right, but I [00:45:45] will do my best to put it right. And occasionally I can’t. And that won’t be my fault.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about [00:45:50] incidental. How many staff now?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. We’re lean. Um, we have, uh, [00:45:55] we have two kind of admin staff, um, who are overseas. Then [00:46:00] we have, um, me and Seb. So Seb’s full time. Um, Seb, sister Becky [00:46:05] joined us. She’s four days. Um, I’m kind of sort of 1 [00:46:10] to 3 days, depending on the week, teaching a lot. So I’m not in loads, but oversight it. [00:46:15] And then we have two people who do the, um the deliveries. So we’re a team of like 6 [00:46:20] or 7.

Payman Langroudi: Sales.

Chris O’Connor: Is.

Payman Langroudi: Who does sales.

Chris O’Connor: Uh, I do all the sales. I do [00:46:25] all the marketing.

Payman Langroudi: What about if you’re like, oh.

Chris O’Connor: Sorry, no sales.

Payman Langroudi: Who answers the phone.

Chris O’Connor: Sales online [00:46:30] and we try not to answer the phone. We go like just just drop us an email. So we’ve got guys we have instead. [00:46:35] We’ll manage those while he’s doing everything.

Payman Langroudi: Well yeah. Marketing.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. So marketing is me. Um, [00:46:40] we don’t do we’ve never done any paid advertising I don’t think really I think we said [00:46:45] we’re on a course once and started wanting to pay money, and I was like, stuff that you did a tiny bit. We [00:46:50] launched in Europe, selling Europe, and we did a little bit over there. Um, but we, we’ve [00:46:55] maybe eaten our whole time working maybe £500 on marketing. We never advertise the courses. [00:47:00] Um, again. I always feel like that money.

Payman Langroudi: Then how do people hear about the courses [00:47:05] then?

Chris O’Connor: Just just. So we had a I guess we had between because it was me, [00:47:10] Ollie and Alan who did the first course, and I when I did it, I wasn’t working clinically, so I was like, I can’t put it on my own [00:47:15] as much as I like. I do know a lot about contact points. I’ve spent a lot of time worrying about it. [00:47:20] Um, but Ollie, Ollie is a very good dentist and he’s still an academic now, and and [00:47:25] Alan has got great hands and he’s GDP and so I needed that. So we hooked up, we wrote [00:47:30] the course, and we all had our own network because I taught I did the, you know, the days for the deanery. [00:47:35] You have them here like I’ve been doing them for 12 years, 13 years. I do the Crown [00:47:40] Day for the PhDs only. I used to do composite. So anyway, people knew me and I taught. So [00:47:45] within that, we probably got enough people to do the first 3 or 4 courses. We sold them all out. And we’ve never not sold [00:47:50] out, of course.

Payman Langroudi: But what did you actually do? Did you what? Post on social media.

Chris O’Connor: Did we. Yeah. Yeah, just everything’s on [00:47:55] Instagram. We never used anything else. Instagram. Um, but I think what helped was we kind of. What [00:48:00] I tried to do is sometimes show how much work we’re putting in. So I’d show them all the bespoke [00:48:05] models we were making, you know, like I’d also I would show them.

Payman Langroudi: They call that [00:48:10] building public.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. And I tell you what we do as well was we we’d show them how we teach. So I released quite a lot of like [00:48:15] YouTube videos or of of technique, um, like, if you can think of it like we were showing people [00:48:20] how to use the products, but giving away content. Um, but really, what was also trying to do was show people how [00:48:25] how we teach. Um, I don’t think the composite course market is [00:48:30] interesting, isn’t it? Because a lot of people, there’s a lot of courses aimed at the the top, I [00:48:35] would say getting from 95% to 100% of. What do you mean? I mean, like, there’s [00:48:40] a lot of courses that are about making it, like making it extraordinary. Oh, I see extraordinary layering, [00:48:45] extraordinary finishing, that kind of thing. And we very much pitched it as we want to get you to 90% [00:48:50] on a big range of topics, like we want to get you really solid, decent. And I think that [00:48:55] gave us a new, slightly different position in the market. Um, and what [00:49:00] else? And then, yeah, the social media stuff, um, kind of kind of. [00:49:05] And then I think genuinely, it was just word of mouth from there. Um, and now it is word of mouth because, [00:49:10] you know, that’s you can’t explain it otherwise, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:49:15] you could you could push as well. I mean, in a way, you’re talking about pull in [00:49:20] marketing terms, but you could push to the it’s just. Yeah, it’s it’s just it’s. [00:49:25]

Chris O’Connor: Just.

Payman Langroudi: Another way of working.

Chris O’Connor: One of the things, one of the interesting things at the minute is we’re kind of we’re sold out and we just [00:49:30] can’t do more dates because we’ve all got young families and stuff. And so that’s what’s. [00:49:35]

Payman Langroudi: The limiting factor.

Chris O’Connor: But we like it how it is. And we’ve written new courses. So I [00:49:40] mean, yeah, I mean as you know, like the hardest thing is if the profit, it all comes from that [00:49:45] last bit of sale, the, you know, if you run like the courses are so expensive to run [00:49:50] that, you know, my probably my break even point is three quarters full, you know.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah. Me [00:49:55] too.

Chris O’Connor: Me too. You know, like, the courses have to have to like. I mean, [00:50:00] I think sometimes when.

Payman Langroudi: You break even on the ticket price, that sort of thing.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. Like so [00:50:05] and I don’t know, I mean, if you want to like people, people, [00:50:10] you know, people everyone wants to do teaching, everyone wants these courses. And I’ve got a good idea [00:50:15] why that is as well, which is because they see it as a way of raising profile. As much as I [00:50:20] wanted to get back to was was the course is I’m a decent technical dentist, but what I’d like to [00:50:25] think with all the time I’ve spent, we can. We’re not better than other people, probably less. But we could [00:50:30] teach it better. We will. We will work on the teaching and the teaching theory and the practicals [00:50:35] better. And that’s what I really hope we try to do, is invest [00:50:40] as much as possible in the way that we teach. And the other thing so like we do, all of the practicals are videoed [00:50:45] and it’s because when you go on a course, often the person doing the demo like gets tired because it’s hard [00:50:50] work.

Payman Langroudi: To be available to look at the work.

Chris O’Connor: We don’t I don’t want that. I want and I want everyone to be a frontline speaker [00:50:55] who speaks, and I want them to go and give people, people coming for the one on one, [00:51:00] you know, the feedback they don’t like. If you want just the content, the lecture content, you can get it online. You [00:51:05] can get it anywhere they want, the one they want, the personal one on one that like 20 minutes [00:51:10] that you spend checking the work. And I want everyone they see to be one of the frontline speakers. [00:51:15] And that that was a big part of it and also the practical. So if the draw. [00:51:20] I like hands on. I like in-person courses. So the draw of that [00:51:25] right is that the practicals are really rich because if they’re not, and I’ve been on lots of these courses where the practicals [00:51:30] are just like an afterthought, you know, what’s the point? You might as well do it online. That’s the market [00:51:35] I’m fighting against is the online market. So we’ve got to be because that’s cheaper. So you’ve got to be demonstrably [00:51:40] better than that. I think I’ve got off topic.

Payman Langroudi: No, [00:51:45] no. And you know what I found that people come on a course sometimes to [00:51:50] get away from their lives.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. By the way I think teaching is a [00:51:55] bit of that. Yeah. Because dentistry is kind of lonely. It’s like a four walls. You’re a nurse. It is a lonely [00:52:00] place. Um, and you know, when you were saying the reasons why people teach. [00:52:05] Yeah. It’s fun, man. Let’s not let’s not forget it’s fun. It’s fun meeting people [00:52:10] and and imparting knowledge.

Chris O’Connor: Sharing what? You know. Yeah. It’s lovely. It’s a privilege, isn’t it? Really.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a it’s [00:52:15] a privilege. And you’re right to take it seriously and and want want it to be the best experience. But [00:52:20] I found, you know, like, one guy’s best experience is totally different to the person sitting next to [00:52:25] him. You know, like, one guy wants to stay out till 3 a.m. and drink. Um, the other one really [00:52:30] wants to find out about his, uh, cases or something. I mean, and so you have to, like, figure [00:52:35] out all of that.

Chris O’Connor: But I think we would, you know, I get that, but we would very much position ourselves [00:52:40] as a like, if I’m honest with you, a very academic course it is. Um. [00:52:45] And I’m not ashamed of that. That’s. We are what we are. You know, we that’s our flavour is [00:52:50] we’re going to be teaching you everything, everything we know. And we’re going to be we’re going to be pushing it in. And [00:52:55] like we we don’t do socials. We don’t do that. That’s that’s not that’s not me. That’s not us. [00:53:00] Um, not that we I love meeting the people, but that’s and we, we, we spend a lot of time with [00:53:05] people because we spend a lot of time we have very long practicals. We have lots of one on one. Um, but it’s not a [00:53:10] it’s very like we don’t it’s not a social. So we’re going [00:53:15] to teach you everything we can in the time we have. And it’s packed.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so we do both. And [00:53:20] it’s tiring. It’s tiring. Yeah. People. People at the end of the two days [00:53:25] are destroyed. Yeah, because. Because the course runs from 9 a.m. to 7 [00:53:30] p.m., and then dinner starts at eight, and then we go on till midnight. And then this, of course, starts [00:53:35] at 9 a.m.. And so it’s too much, right? It’s so much work, um, that, you [00:53:40] know, on the Sunday everyone’s damaged. Yeah. But, you know, it’s different.

Chris O’Connor: It’s been. But that’s I mean, [00:53:45] it’s been it’s been. How long have you been running it?

Payman Langroudi: For ten years. Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: So I say to people, [00:53:50] you can run a course. Anyone can run a course twice to break even. You’ve got to run it five times. And [00:53:55] very few courses can run past the first couple. Everyone has enough following to get a couple, [00:54:00] but to get past that, it has to be a really good course and you have to have really good word of mouth. Yeah, [00:54:05] and Miloco does, you know, I think incidental does.

Payman Langroudi: You know, the problem with courses, I find they take [00:54:10] up like so much time, like enlighten the whole [00:54:15] of the restorative part of our company, including the courses, the cosmic stuff, the everything. [00:54:20] Not bleaching accounts for 15% of turnover, but [00:54:25] it accounts for at least 40% of time.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:54:30] if you look at it in a cold ROI way, then it’s not worth it. [00:54:35] Because. Because why don’t we put more time into enlightened? It makes more sense. Right. But that’s [00:54:40] what I’m saying. It’s fun. It’s connection. Connection to the market. You know, little [00:54:45] I call it soft benefits. Like, for instance, do you do you exhibit a dentistry show?

Chris O’Connor: We [00:54:50] we don’t do any. We just the price is just.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: We would we would never [00:54:55] stack the price because we could we try and get the prices low on them and you know the it’s just the website [00:55:00] and everything. You’d have to.

Payman Langroudi: So I do.

Chris O’Connor: I.

Payman Langroudi: Do I sometimes spend 60, £70,000 [00:55:05] on a two day, two day show. Yeah. And it cannot pay off. [00:55:10] It used to. It used to I’d say maybe 6 or 7 years ago. It used to pay [00:55:15] back. Yeah, but it cannot pay back in those two days. It’s impossible for it to pay back. And [00:55:20] if you’re looking at, you know, we we turn over more than that. But then you’ve got to look at profit, right? It’s like [00:55:25] the profit from that turnover isn’t £70,000. And then you think of lifetime value and so on, [00:55:30] you know. But but the soft benefits of it rather than the hard benefits [00:55:35] make it worth it. Like one conversation.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: No with one person [00:55:40] that you at one insight. Yeah. From one customer or one [00:55:45] competitor or one whoever. One academic, one thing. Have you heard one [00:55:50] thing like that makes having your stand and you know, by the way, we’ve been planning [00:55:55] it for for two months and you know what’s going to be the music, what’s going to be the drinks, what’s going [00:56:00] to be this? What’s going to be on the big video wall? Who’s going to do what the hotels and restaurants, [00:56:05] the the taking your, your.

Chris O’Connor: It’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Big it’s a massive thing. Yeah. [00:56:10]

Chris O’Connor: It’s huge. Here. And we. Yeah. It’s huge. We. If we went, I’d just be like me on a little stand. I mean, it [00:56:15] would be, um, we put all of our, all of the resource goes into on online. [00:56:20] Um, and then I suppose the courses are our, that is our, our [00:56:25] shopfront in a way. Yeah, but it pays for my, um, so one of the reasons the reason [00:56:30] we, I never planned to do courses with incidental, but when we ran it, when we opened the business, we were getting asked [00:56:35] to sponsor. So I’d go down a couple of times. I went to London, bring all my stuff, have a little, you know, stand. [00:56:40] But I was like, it’s just impossible for me to make my day rate as a dentist, you know what I mean? [00:56:45] To go and to go do that. Whereas if they came to us and we ran a good course, I could [00:56:50] cover my costs for the day on the teaching, and then you’d still have the chance to exhibit. And that’s [00:56:55] really where it came from. I think the training has then become bigger than than that. [00:57:00] It’s probably almost as big part of our it’s probably 5050 our business. [00:57:05]

Payman Langroudi: Compared to products.

Chris O’Connor: To the shop, the shop and the training. Ah. And as we’ve moved into, we now end our [00:57:10] courses. We have two huge tooth wear course, which is we’re putting everything [00:57:15] into at the moment. Um, that’s what I would say. It’s like 50% of the business.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your best selling product?

Chris O’Connor: Well, [00:57:20] I would say the TVM is probably what we’re known for, but what we did [00:57:25] was we then worked with TVM and I’ve developed products with them. So the double curve is something I’m really [00:57:30] proud of. It’s a double curve matrix. It’s a sectional band.

Payman Langroudi: Is it like greater curve?

Chris O’Connor: No. [00:57:35] It’s a we do a basically a copy of Greater Curve. We sell um, [00:57:40] because it’s not got a pattern in the UK, in the UK, Europe. Uh, we do, but I’ve developed my own [00:57:45] DME bands as well, um, which are tofflemire based. Um, we’ve developed a separate. [00:57:50]

Payman Langroudi: One with a little elbow in it.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Such an interesting idea. Like, it’s [00:57:55] such an obvious thing, isn’t it?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. So we developed that. I mean, I’m very lucky in that if I want to get something [00:58:00] made, I can, I can, I can now like either through a company or we’ll make it ourselves. [00:58:05] You know, we have we’ve got quite a lot of expertise in CAD. And so we’ll design it and we’ll get it made. We’ve got [00:58:10] to do the tooling.

Payman Langroudi: And like if you’re copying something, what drives you that you’re going to do it cheaper.

Chris O’Connor: Cheaper. [00:58:15] Yeah. We’ll bring the price. Like the greater curves. The reason we did them was before Sonny was doing the UK company. [00:58:20] Um to get those you had to import them. And it was a nightmare. And they were such big volumes in [00:58:25] a pack, you could only buy a pack of like 100. So the cost is really high. So we do them in packs and you [00:58:30] don’t need 100. You need like 12, you know, because you don’t use them all the time. I don’t [00:58:35] I know that Sonny does them for like, uh, almost everything, you know, so he could [00:58:40] probably get through 100. But for me, they’re really for creating emergence and flair on deep margins. I [00:58:45] wouldn’t bring a build a contact point with one, but anyway. So, um. But they [00:58:50] were. So they were a nightmare to get as well. You had to do all the import. And so we actually copied them before Sonny had them in the UK, [00:58:55] because we wanted to make them again. The tag of incidental is making quality dentistry [00:59:00] accessible for all, and that is its accessibility in terms of you can buy it, it’s available [00:59:05] and accessibility in price and accessibility in. We will show you how to use [00:59:10] it. So we’ve got the videos online of how you use it.

Payman Langroudi: But you know I don’t know I [00:59:15] hate the idea of copying anything. I hate it.

Chris O’Connor: I don’t [00:59:20] mind. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, I mean, I’m sure I copy things. Yeah I do. [00:59:25] Yeah. I love the idea of copying something from another industry into dentistry. [00:59:30] Yeah. So I’m doing my own copying all the time. Yeah. Um, but you know, the [00:59:35] mindset, like, like of of that process, like, for instance, someone like Prem great [00:59:40] at that. Right? Really good at making something cheaper. Yeah. Um, my, [00:59:45] there’s different ways of doing business, isn’t it? You can, you can go on the.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not on the price volume angle [00:59:50] or you can go on the technology margin angle. But I reckon a brain like yours [00:59:55] could be on the technology margin.

Chris O’Connor: Both. We do both. So we’ve got unique.

Payman Langroudi: Not easy to do [01:00:00] both math but. Well, you know, it’s like saying we do both private and NHS. It’s hard to do both [01:00:05] well.

Chris O’Connor: Well we do. I don’t know whether we do both well, but we do. We do both. We do both. I’ve developed [01:00:10] these unique products, so I’ve developed like a rubber dam clamp. That’s for online cementing. I did that with [01:00:15] terbium. It took us like two years to develop that got the bends right. That was really hard. And yeah, you’d be upset if someone [01:00:20] else copied yours.

Payman Langroudi: If you bother with Torvean, why don’t you just develop it yourself?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. Good question. Um, it’s it’s [01:00:25] incredibly, incredibly hard to to make rubber dam clamps. Good. Um, it’s not an easy thing to do. [01:00:30] And they’ve got a huge amount of expertise. Um, there’s a couple of things where I think I could have. So we developed [01:00:35] a product called the Elliott Ring, and I’ve got another one coming out, and it’s a, you know, how you get your sexual [01:00:40] matrix kit, it’s got this nickel titanium ring and you put it on and it goes poof. Well, one of the things that does and we’ve got [01:00:45] papers that we’ve published on this is it crushes the band a lot. And you create, we call it deformation. [01:00:50] A lot of deformations, dents, all this stuff. So this Elliott ring is developed on the Elliott [01:00:55] separator. And you place it and you can twist it so you can completely control and look at the band [01:01:00] and see is it is it reforming? Right. So we we design developed that I got the, um, [01:01:05] design registry through Europe and UK and we get that made manufactured. [01:01:10] So we have Ukca mark, which isn’t that bad to get, but you know, getting CE mark since they [01:01:15] did the MDR which was around Covid time, if you’re in the market, the whole go [01:01:20] on a rant here, but if you’re in the market already, you’re allowed to apply for extensions, [01:01:25] which means you basically don’t have to do anything, but it’s basically no one you can get in the market. And, [01:01:30] um, they’ve done it. The EU have done it to protect the market from Chinese products [01:01:35] and.

Payman Langroudi: Insurgents.

Chris O’Connor: Insurgents, because the Chinese are way ahead in.

Payman Langroudi: In many [01:01:40] things, way.

Chris O’Connor: Ahead and cheaper. So they’ve done they’ve made the regulatory impossible so we can get ukca. [01:01:45] But getting CE is really difficult. So even though I’ve developed that product, I’m thinking at the minute, maybe going through Tor [01:01:50] to do it and in exchange give them the license for the product. But in exchange we would have Europe [01:01:55] EU distribution. Because the thing I found hardest of all. [01:02:00] Of everything is regulatory compliance. Everything I do, it.

Payman Langroudi: Is.

Chris O’Connor: Hard. That’s. [01:02:05] That is the bit that I hate.

Payman Langroudi: I me too, me too. But you have to [01:02:10] acknowledge that it’s also the best thing about our business. It’s the dip. It’s the dip. It stops [01:02:15] now. It stops insurgents, right? So it’s the dip. It’s not. Yeah, it’s not like I open a pizza shop. My brother in law [01:02:20] opens one across the road. You know, it’s difficult to get into this market.

Chris O’Connor: When you’re through the dip. [01:02:25] The dip is beautiful when you’re facing the dip, the dips are horrible.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I hate regularly. We [01:02:30] outsource, we pay through our nose to outsource.

Chris O’Connor: The money is like we [01:02:35] got like a quote for it. It’s like 93 grand to do the paperwork, but the paperwork and, [01:02:40] you know, the instrument we’re trying to do, it’s a rubber stamp punch. Yeah, yeah. You [01:02:45] know, and the pay. And so I was like, well, I’ll do it. So he spent he’s probably spent six months [01:02:50] like when he’s got free time doing the regulatory. The file is, you know, uh, I don’t [01:02:55] know, 2000 pages. Right. And we’re still getting kickback on this thing, right? For a rubber stamp [01:03:00] punch. It’s it’s beyond. I mean, they’re going to roll back on it 100%. It’s literally just a time [01:03:05] block for this, for the EU to try and protect their market while they try and figure out what they’re going to do. [01:03:10] And it’s, you know, it’s nothing. It’s nothing to do with patient safety. And it’s nothing to do with [01:03:15] it’s literally controlling the market. And I as someone who wants to make dentistry more accessible, [01:03:20] it boils my blood.

Payman Langroudi: Grinds your gears. What keeps [01:03:25] you up at night.

Chris O’Connor: In in dentistry or life or, uh, [01:03:30] like the company? Sometimes I just get, like, I get, like, I got quite a lot of plates [01:03:35] spinning. You know, I’ve got my clinical, got my teaching, got my product development, got [01:03:40] trying to get new, uh, distribution deals. I might have some staff problems, HR problems, [01:03:45] like, we’re a growing business. We’re small. Um, so sometimes, like, it doesn’t take [01:03:50] many of them to be going wrong, that you kind of can feel a bit overwhelmed. So that can that can do that [01:03:55] to me. Um, I love the mix. The mix is a buzz, but the mix, you [01:04:00] know, like, let’s say I have a problem with a patient and a HR problem at the same time because, [01:04:05] you know, capacity to manage that. It’s getting better as I’ve got more team, but that’s hard. [01:04:10] Um, and to be honest with you, um, the thing I find [01:04:15] hardest in my life is, is, um, is, is parenting, you know, it’s like, um, it’s. [01:04:20]

Payman Langroudi: How many kids are you two?

Chris O’Connor: And my kids are just getting [01:04:25] to a lovely age, you know? But how old are they? Uh, ten and six.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s [01:04:30] just been through the through the hard bit.

Chris O’Connor: We didn’t sleep for. Yeah, [01:04:35] yeah. Like we and like. And, you know, managing them and giving them [01:04:40] what they need as a family unit when you’re so strained. Is that like [01:04:45] giving them what they need is, is, is just that’s and worrying that I’m not is what keeps [01:04:50] me up. Really.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but then like, you know, we were saying at the beginning [01:04:55] about your parents in the same way as they didn’t tell you to go study [01:05:00] often with kids, that that tends to be like, I’m always surprised here that [01:05:05] people will will at work. They’ll acknowledge that they need to hire people, but [01:05:10] at home they won’t hire people. And [01:05:15] I get it. Like, I don’t know, you get this this sort of stuff about I don’t want someone [01:05:20] else to bring up my kid sort of angle. Yeah, but, you know, I had a dedicated nanny [01:05:25] myself when I was a kid. Like, she was my nanny. My brother had another nanny. Wow. [01:05:30] There was never a moment where I thought, who’s my mom? And who’s my nanny? Like, I, but [01:05:35] I loved that woman here. Um, when she passed away, I cried, like, 30 [01:05:40] years later. Yeah. But it’s not like. Oh, my love was wasted [01:05:45] on her. She taught me some of the most important lessons I’ve ever learned. She was illiterate. Yeah. [01:05:50] And so what I’m saying is she enriched my life. At the same time, [01:05:55] my mom was probably doing something important at that time for [01:06:00] her.

Chris O’Connor: It’s hard, isn’t it? I think I think I, I have, you know, I have to, [01:06:05] uh, enjoy my journey in life. And it’s not just being a parent. [01:06:10] Like being a parent is really important to me. But doing this is really important to me, too. And it’s just finding [01:06:15] space for both is the you know, I love running this business. I’m passionate about it. [01:06:20] I love doing my dentistry. I have to and I love my kids, and I don’t want them to miss out because I’m always working. [01:06:25] It’s just finding a way to get everyone to get what they need.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: And you know, that’s that’s [01:06:30] the, you know, work life balance isn’t. Yeah. It’s just I, [01:06:35] you know, everyone’s different and everyone has a different, you know, life don’t they. But what they [01:06:40] need.

Payman Langroudi: Um, there’s no teeth in if we’re going. I mean, you’re a bit of [01:06:45] an expert on rubber dam.

Chris O’Connor: A dam.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, contact points and all that. Matrices, [01:06:50] rings and all that. So it’s a bit unfair, but I just want like a [01:06:55] what would the jazz call it? Protrusive Pearl. How what are we going to call all those? Uh Dental. [01:07:00]

Chris O’Connor: Leaders Dental.

Payman Langroudi: Dental Leaders. Uh, diamond.

Chris O’Connor: Nugget.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Nugget. [01:07:05] Nugget of let’s talk rubber dam. Just give us something that most dentists [01:07:10] don’t know or should know, or could know that that would help people.

Chris O’Connor: Pearl [01:07:15] may. Uh. Okay. This is a technique I teach. Um, I taught a [01:07:20] few people. It is, um, I call it the Teflon napkin technique. So, uh, one of the things is people [01:07:25] forget that rubber dam is a is a tool. It’s not an outcome. Just because you put [01:07:30] a rubber dam on doesn’t mean it was good. Just because you didn’t doesn’t mean it was bad. Okay, so thing. Now [01:07:35] occasionally the decay gets so deep and you’re basically at the bone level. It’s very difficult [01:07:40] to to place a dam on it and that’s fine. So what we would do is do a split dam, [01:07:45] do a gingivectomy. Okay. And then I do something called a Teflon napkin technique. So what I’m going to do is take take PTFE [01:07:50] tape and I’m going to pack that around the the margins of the tooth. And I will [01:07:55] secure it bit by bit with liquid. And you can isolate pretty much. You can do it. [01:08:00]

Payman Langroudi: Even at bone level.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. Do it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s almost like a retraction call.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, yeah you [01:08:05] like but you fan it out like a thing. But if you want to see the I’ve got quite a few cases on [01:08:10] my Instagram. Do this.

Payman Langroudi: Let me fan it out.

Chris O’Connor: How so you, you place the you place the PTFE [01:08:15] and then you kind of you imagine you are building a dam out of it. You’re like like a.

Payman Langroudi: Thing [01:08:20] I see.

Chris O’Connor: So, um, people want to isolate everything and like, this is like when [01:08:25] you do so. And then the other thing is they want to do everything adhesive, everything adhesive. Right. [01:08:30] And adhesive dentistry is amazing. But if you have all dentine margins and it’s that deep, conventional dentistry [01:08:35] is incredible. So what we would do is we’ll isolate like that. There is no chance possible [01:08:40] that you can put a matrix bond on that thing, right? So don’t worry about it. You’re going to get you’re going to etch it, bond [01:08:45] it, sandblast it, step. Take your flowable composite and bead it around the rim. Keep doing a [01:08:50] bit like I use the filter bulk fill. It holds itself quite well. This will build up. You build like [01:08:55] a perimeter and then you smash in a core. And then you prep for a vertical prep and you can fix anything like that. And [01:09:00] it’s easy and you know.

Payman Langroudi: And sort of the overhang situation, you kind of [01:09:05] you pick it back up, back to.

Chris O’Connor: Back. So you take you take a nut and you [01:09:10] zip it back and I can fix, you know, all this like faffing about with you see people [01:09:15] messing around with copper and all this kind of stuff and blah, blah, blah. Like if it’s that [01:09:20] low, right? Like part of dentistry is making it affordable and predictable and [01:09:25] doable, right? There’s nothing wrong with the Crown, like they’ve got the best clinical trials on [01:09:30] them than any other thing we possibly have. They are the best restoration we have ever developed as dentists. [01:09:35] They worked for 20 years, you know, um, and if it’s that broken down, you probably won’t have a second shot even [01:09:40] if you do a ceramic only and you think, oh, I’m amazing, I’m doing it adhesive. And I’ve saved two prisms of enamel. So, [01:09:45] um. So, yeah, split them, uh, the Teflon napkin technique free build [01:09:50] and then do a vertical knife edge prep. Um, and then you can save so many teeth. Um, [01:09:55] if you, if you do do that, is that okay? It’s not that.

Payman Langroudi: One.

Chris O’Connor: It’s not it’s [01:10:00] not an easy technique, okay? It’s not.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Intrigued by the area of Hiroden [01:10:05] sticks because.

Chris O’Connor: I again, I probably push it [01:10:10] to past the limit. But, you know, I don’t get a lot of failures and I don’t, I, [01:10:15] you know, I, I can it’s not.

Payman Langroudi: What if that tooth also needed endo. [01:10:20] How would you sort of, um, find the canals, keep them patent [01:10:25] while you build this.

Chris O’Connor: I put this on my Instagram story the other day. I did one the other day. So what you do is, is. [01:10:30] Yeah, it’s tricky because you get so always when you do any of these broken teeth you do a [01:10:35] check restore. You always say get the tooth naked, strip it right back, find the [01:10:40] canals. Right. But it’s all it’s all like flat right. It’s all at gingival level because it’s knackered. So [01:10:45] then what you do is you find the canals, you put some PTFE and there’s no a lot of time, there’s no pulp chamber [01:10:50] to put it in. So you, you, you pack it flat and again you tack it with the liquid on top and that will [01:10:55] secure it over the pulp space. Then you build that, um, you know that rim I was talking about? Thicken [01:11:00] it as far as you can to get as much dentine bonded as you can, and then you zip back, remove the PTFE, [01:11:05] you’re left in the middle and then you’re away to go. Um, I’ve got a bunch of cases. It’s something I really [01:11:10] I love doing. So I guess I like teaching and there’s loads on my Instagram page.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:11:15] used to find the canal stick files in it and then build up.

Chris O’Connor: So [01:11:20] build.

Payman Langroudi: Build.

Chris O’Connor: Build the rim.

Payman Langroudi: The rim.

Chris O’Connor: And often that’s the first appointment [01:11:25] is the build. The build is, is, is um, you know, endodontic should be restoratively [01:11:30] driven a lot of the time. The, the, the great endo guys, they’re so focussed on the endo, you know, and they [01:11:35] just work through this leaking mess and you know, everyone who’s ever taught her would [01:11:40] be like, get the truth, naked first star ability assessment and go from there. But you [01:11:45] know, the realities of life of, you know, I think doing referral [01:11:50] endodontics sometimes doesn’t lend itself to proper deconstruction and reconstruction. Um, [01:11:55] you know.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s a difference between a good endodontist and a great endodontist. Right? It’s the ones who do take [01:12:00] care of all of that.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, we have loads of endo guys come on the course, and it’s always a pleasure to have [01:12:05] them because ours is a three day course. And the last days on Anteriors and they always half asleep and I go and teach them something [01:12:10] else in the corner. You know, they don’t, but they come because they want to and we’ve got to do something about that. But they come because they want [01:12:15] to learn this stuff. And I think, good on you because you’re full, you’re excellent at that. But you [01:12:20] have recognised that as a skill you need. And and we will help you get that. And I love that. [01:12:25] I think, you know, the guys that I know who, who I respect the most are also [01:12:30] excellent at resto.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s move to the next diamond.

Chris O’Connor: Another diamond that [01:12:35] was a long one.

Payman Langroudi: That was a good one. Um, on The bands. [01:12:40] Uh, rings. Yeah. Separating the matrices, [01:12:45] not matrices. Wedges, wedges.

Chris O’Connor: Wedges is critical. A [01:12:50] wedge one wedges. Wedges is so people think wedges is like incidental like put [01:12:55] the incidental with wedges. Yeah. They’ll pick they’ll they’ll just get the bands [01:13:00] or whatever. Um, the problem with them is that they’re not stiff enough. They’re too soft. So it’s why we why we all [01:13:05] started with the Trivium. They’re stiffer. But anyway, you put your band in, you can get a good result with anything. Put the band in, they put the wedge [01:13:10] in, and then they put the ring on. Right. Now, the problem often is that the wedge is sitting above [01:13:15] the cavity. Too high. Right? So you’re putting it in.

Payman Langroudi: Another very broken down tooth, [01:13:20] right?

Chris O’Connor: No. Any tooth. You put the you put the wedge in because you haven’t really selected the wedge. You’ve just [01:13:25] put it in you just this my, my go to rammed it in that that wedge [01:13:30] is then, um, it’s sitting above the cavity or it’s too high up. Right.

Payman Langroudi: So once again denting. [01:13:35]

Chris O’Connor: So it’s impeding the path of the band from the cavity bass to the adjacent tooth. We call that [01:13:40] the bridging gap, the gap between the cavity bass and the other one. And so what you want to pick is the band should be picked on [01:13:45] its curvature. So like flat bands for small spaces. But as the as the space gets bigger [01:13:50] from you go bigger. That’s why we develop the double curves and stuff so you can bridge it, right. [01:13:55] But then the wedge must sit and you want it to sit horizontally below the cavity [01:14:00] base and not impede the journey of the thing up. Because if it does, even [01:14:05] before you’ve put the ring on, you’ve got no chance with the contact. Or you will, but you’ll create a weird defect. [01:14:10] So the first thing you do is you finish your cavity prep. You do what we call the wedge check. [01:14:15] You place the wedge in, all right? And if it’s not sitting below, then you’ve got to do a couple of things. You either trim [01:14:20] the wedge down so that it doesn’t poke up too high. You trim the gum down so that it sits lower [01:14:25] or you change your technique. So you’ll do it in two stages rather than one. You use one band [01:14:30] to build the first bit, or we’ll use or maybe we’ll use like a special low profile wedge, like the [01:14:35] clear wedges, but that that’s critical. And so wedge selection drives everything.

Payman Langroudi: The job of [01:14:40] the wedge.

Payman Langroudi: There is just to push the band against the tooth.

Chris O’Connor: Well that’s a good.

Payman Langroudi: One because the, [01:14:45] the, the job is not to separate the tooth of that wedge. Right. Because you’ve got the ring. That’s the ring [01:14:50] does that. Right.

Chris O’Connor: Again this is a good one because when people do these matrices or whatever they they [01:14:55] the common conception is that the wedge is there to seal the margins sometimes. Whereas [01:15:00] like so like you were doing your dental school use equivalent in your wooden wedge, you [01:15:05] would expect that the job of the wedge there is to create the separation. Right? So we would what [01:15:10] we we teach a lot of ringless technique. So you place the band, you get that really nice solid wooden [01:15:15] wedge. And we know from trials that you can get around 60 microns of separation from a wooden wedge. Yeah. [01:15:20] So you can then overcome it. You don’t need the ring actually because the ring causes most of the trouble. So [01:15:25] you just do.

Payman Langroudi: Well, I thought you were talking about a case where you were using a ring.

Chris O’Connor: Well, you can, but. But then. [01:15:30] So then if you cannot get the separation from the wedge because sometimes you can’t like, let’s say I [01:15:35] have to use one of those low profile bio clear wedges. Well, that’s not going to do it. So I then would build a hip of [01:15:40] composite, take the bio clear out and put a wooden wedge in.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: Or we [01:15:45] could put a um another way of doing it is you can then add a separating ring. But when you put that separating [01:15:50] ring on, you need to really it’s not enough because they’re spring loaded. These things, you don’t [01:15:55] want it to then deform the band. And that’s what they do so often.

Payman Langroudi: That’s why you develop the one where you can [01:16:00] adjust the.

Chris O’Connor: So we did what we did was we noticed this was a problem. So two strategies [01:16:05] one go ringless, which is cheap and easy. That’s what we taught a lot. And then we were like, yeah, it’s good. But just sometimes [01:16:10] you maybe need a little bit more or a little bit to pull around. And then we developed the ring [01:16:15] and but the I mean again we’ve published paper on that papilla management, me [01:16:20] and Ollie, um, when I was still in academia um which you can is free to find and we um [01:16:25] and we published on the matrix deformations as well. I think it’s the, [01:16:30] the next wave of of matrixing in my in my mind is is this? [01:16:35] We went through this period of getting nickel titanium rings around 2008 with Trident, [01:16:40] and everyone’s like, oh, these are great. But actually they ended up with these weird square shaped restorations [01:16:45] because they were deforming. And then now we’re getting more nuanced with how we [01:16:50] do the separation.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, do you know of Simon McDonald?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah [01:16:55] I do. And I had a meet with him.

Payman Langroudi: Was he your hero recently?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, a bit like, you know, like, [01:17:00] um, I think we tiny bit touched on it, like I was. I’d been a bit like a a bit like [01:17:05] an alcoholic with a pub, you know, I love, like, I’ve been on yours. I’ve been all over your site before [01:17:10] I was in the business. I checked every product, everything. I know what everyone’s selling and I have since I graduated. [01:17:15] So. So the first thing I bought as an associate, as a PhD, [01:17:20] it was a was a Trident kit, £250 with the with the V ring. Yeah. [01:17:25] And Jason Smithson’s got his picture and I’m looking at that going I want to do that, I want to do that. And I probably [01:17:30] spent the next eight years trying to do that and failing. You know, and I got, you know. Yeah. Exactly [01:17:35] that it was it was it was huge. And it was all around them, you know, and it was this and it’s [01:17:40] a big influence for incidental huge because I would go on that site and not only did they have the, [01:17:45] the products, but they also had the price for normal people. You know, we didn’t have the accounts to log in, which [01:17:50] is something we’ve copied. And then they also had, um.

Payman Langroudi: Are you not worried a patient goes there [01:17:55] and sees the price from the GDC perspective?

Chris O’Connor: Uh, I’m not [01:18:00] Payman, but now you’re making me feel like I should know. There’s there’s plenty that you can so.

Payman Langroudi: Well, in a way, like, [01:18:05] let’s imagine we did that and we had the dentist price of a bleaching kit, and then the patient goes [01:18:10] on there and says, why is my dentist charging me.

Chris O’Connor: 600 about it? £650, you [01:18:15] can find the like. There’s a lot you can get it on now. I think at the time though, that was up to them. [01:18:20] Did you could get the prices. They were always up and I just remember that being like huge. I think sometimes [01:18:25] principles get so frustrated with associates not knowing the price, but sometimes they don’t have access to the price [01:18:30] of stuff, you know. But the other thing it did was it had like technique guides and stuff you [01:18:35] don’t have on the thing. And I always think that’s a big part of the role of a distributor, is [01:18:40] sourcing good products, which I trusted them to do because they had they [01:18:45] they could pick a product, right? They they could pick a product.

Payman Langroudi: That was a great they.

Chris O’Connor: Could pick a product. They, you know, John Maloney [01:18:50] is a big pal of mine now. You know, they picked a product. They knew what they were going to sell. They had [01:18:55] they had a really good layout for website, which a lot of people didn’t at the time. The prices you could get, but [01:19:00] they also taught people how to use them. Right. And it was a big influence on me. So those trident [01:19:05] rings I learned I learned a lot of dentistry from reading. And the other one was, um, QED. [01:19:10] I got really into Endo at the time, and they’d have these technique guides with the products, you [01:19:15] know, and I would, I would read that was where I learned I almost more than courses. I would read these [01:19:20] product guides. Still to this day, I read religiously, read all the guides.

Payman Langroudi: There have been [01:19:25] QED been around for ages, man.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. And they had, they had a, they had like a it was like the, you know, the um the [01:19:30] way you thermal backfill. Gp yeah. Like I learned that from just reading all [01:19:35] their bumf, you know, and um, and that’s part of the role. Right. It’s part of the role. You [01:19:40] should get the get people to get the most out of the instrument or the equipment itself.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [01:19:45] move on to the darker part of the pod. We like to talk about [01:19:50] mistakes, clinical errors.

Chris O’Connor: I’ve got plenty of those.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What comes to mind? What [01:19:55] comes to mind when I say clinical error? Something people can learn from.

Chris O’Connor: Well, something that changed my career completely [01:20:00] and and broke me for a long time was I was not long out. I think it was my first year as an [01:20:05] associate. I’d gone down to Sheffield. I hadn’t worked out. I came back with my tail between my legs, and [01:20:10] I was working this NHS job and rushing, rushing, rushing. And we had this [01:20:15] kid. And, you know, in that mindset of mine, we’re going to do it right. We’re not necessarily going [01:20:20] to look after the person, which again, I’m ashamed of now when I think back. But it had [01:20:25] this kid in did his check fluoride varnish nurse put it on back of my glove way too much. [01:20:30] Um, I went to place it. It dripped down. You didn’t have safety glasses on, and the fluoride varnish went into [01:20:35] his eye.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, goodness.

Chris O’Connor: Um, and then, you know, that’s bad [01:20:40] in itself, but these things happen. But the way I managed it afterwards, again, [01:20:45] you know, I’m ashamed of. Um, I get I was obsessed with getting the next patient [01:20:50] in not running late. I should have just. I know this is what I would do now. I had a similar problem [01:20:55] recently. You just anyone’s listening. You just close your book down, you know, [01:21:00] sort the problem out. If the people complain about you running late or can’t do it, it’s irrelevant.

Payman Langroudi: Because what happens [01:21:05] when fluoride varnish goes in your eye? What happens?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. So I because I was panicking, [01:21:10] I was like, oh it’d be fine and rinsed it out. And then I kind of, to be honest with you, I just sort of ushered them out of the door [01:21:15] really, rather than taking control and sorting it. Yeah. Um, you know, and then they, they [01:21:20] went to the emergency eye emergency clinic, but not from my referral. From they went and [01:21:25] they rinsed it out. It was fine, you know, but you know.

Payman Langroudi: Probably complain. [01:21:30]

Chris O’Connor: I got yeah got sued for it. And in hindsight, you know, you deserve it’s [01:21:35] hard to say because it’s horrible being sued.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: But yeah, um, I [01:21:40] think if what they might have sued me anyway if it happened, but if I dealt with it better, I [01:21:45] might not have been. Yeah, but I probably I probably deserved it. And it was like a [01:21:50] couple of grand payout. But then as you know, you indemnity then goes up through the roof. Yeah. And [01:21:55] it changed me.

Payman Langroudi: The heartache man.

Chris O’Connor: It changed me. It changed me because [01:22:00] the patients weren’t people I wanted to help. They were people I wanted to protect [01:22:05] myself from.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: And that’s taken a while, like, longer than I would like to get rid of [01:22:10] that. Um. And now it’s not like that. I don’t feel like that.

Payman Langroudi: But I bet you never have a patient who’s [01:22:15] not wearing eye protection now, right?

Chris O’Connor: They’re all wearing eye protection. And the fluoride varnish is.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so interesting because [01:22:20] you have learned that lesson because you went through that pain. Do you reckon [01:22:25] like people listening now will all learn that lesson? You have to kind of go through pain to learn [01:22:30] actual lessons. But but you know what I mean. Like, I’d never even thought about fluoride varnish getting [01:22:35] someone’s life like it was.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, it was like, um, I mean, I [01:22:40] was I wasn’t feeling that confident in my dentistry, and it really, I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Knocked [01:22:45] you back early.

Chris O’Connor: People, people reach out. Yeah. And I think I was, like, one of the first people to get sued of [01:22:50] of my of my cohort, you know, and so I was kind of like I was really quite good at like, [01:22:55] you know, I was pretty good at dental school. I was quite, you know, I took my dentistry [01:23:00] quite seriously. And it was like this blot on, on, on me [01:23:05] and.

Payman Langroudi: On your record.

Chris O’Connor: And I and I, you know, I felt that a lot, you know, and [01:23:10] it took a long time to get over that. Um, a long time.

Payman Langroudi: What was the emotion? Shame.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, [01:23:15] I think so. Definitely like looking back at the time.

Payman Langroudi: How come you’re so cool talking about it now? Because you’re [01:23:20] over it. It’s been that sort of thing.

Chris O’Connor: It’s been 12 years or 13 years. Like time and [01:23:25] and reflection. And and the person I was back then, you know, as I said [01:23:30] to you, like work is.

Payman Langroudi: Defining.

Chris O’Connor: You work. And this is [01:23:35] is critical work defines how I feel about myself at [01:23:40] times in my life. Far too much so. And you, you build like some people [01:23:45] get their self-worth from going to the gym or from there or whatever [01:23:50] it is, or earning loads of money. Mine. Mine was being excellent at my job. And so to [01:23:55] to to not have that was massive for me. Um, you know, and um, [01:24:00] now I understand that that’s something in me, but I am, [01:24:05] like, much more in control of that. You know what I mean? And you’re like, it’s [01:24:10] a part of my life, and it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Perfect, dude, because the the learning point from the [01:24:15] clinic perspective was make sure there are glasses on, but the learning is the learning point from [01:24:20] your own personal perspective was don’t 100% invest your worth in any [01:24:25] one thing because.

Chris O’Connor: That’s 12 years. That was a lot of therapy. That wasn’t. But yes, [01:24:30] in reflection, but the learning point from the the stuff’s going to go wrong. Right? Yeah. That’s [01:24:35] that is but what you do is you don’t worry about the next patient, you worry about that patient and you just close [01:24:40] it down. Like, now if I have an issue, just close, like, you know, if someone has a problem, I’ll [01:24:45] work through lunch, I’ll work late. I will close patients. Like, we’re going to sort this problem out like [01:24:50] it’s never I’m never not going to sort that out ever again. Like I did it then. [01:24:55] And there was another time where I did similar. And like that is my I never, [01:25:00] ever let them leave without doing and let them see that you have done everything you humanly [01:25:05] could to resolve it. Um, and then, you know, if it still gets sued, then at [01:25:10] least you can be. I did everything I could.

Payman Langroudi: So even though I like that one because it’s was interesting and different. [01:25:15] I kind of want another one, and I want one either.

Chris O’Connor: I’m quite the other time I got [01:25:20] sued.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, no not necessarily. What I’m really interested in is someone like you. [01:25:25] In a way, you’re having to push the boundaries of [01:25:30] treatment. Like in this way, for instance.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I want [01:25:35] to hear about a time when you pushed it, you thought maybe it’s going to work and it didn’t work.

Chris O’Connor: Um. [01:25:40]

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, we’re very we’re shy to talk about that. But [01:25:45] all of progress happens because of pushing something. Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: Um, I’ve, I’ve [01:25:50] got one coming up. I mean, like, I think I think to give you the example you want, it has [01:25:55] to be something recent. There’s ones where I was didn’t know what I was doing, and I was, you know, [01:26:00] and it was wrong because I didn’t know I got, you know, I’ve got one at the minute and I’m not [01:26:05] sure it’s going to go right, but I’m trepidatious. So this guy came and [01:26:10] he’s referred and he’d been trying to get someone to do his teeth for, like, two years. Been to the dental hospital [01:26:15] twice. Been around like no one would touch his teeth. And he basically was ex-alcoholic. And he’s got he basically [01:26:20] had really collapsed by very few teeth left. And the teeth that are left had quite bad root caries. And [01:26:25] I did all my assessment and I was like, it’s going to be really hard this, you know, but we can we’ll [01:26:30] crown every we’ll crown them, you know, um, I’ll do the digital design and we’ll do some, uh, because [01:26:35] he was miserable. This dentures. Awful because it’s like really over closing. So I was like, we’re going to open [01:26:40] the bite, but you have so few teeth left, and I don’t know about you, but when you do [01:26:45] these ones, you open the bite. You kind of are really try hard to have tooth support because if they don’t, [01:26:50] the whole denture thing is just difficult. Like they’ve got nowhere to kind of go to, if you know what I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Plus, [01:26:55] they can’t take their dentures out and.

Chris O’Connor: If they take them out, they’re nowhere.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Chris O’Connor: So so [01:27:00] anyway, this upper, this upper left canine is the only like it’s the only thing I’ve got on this [01:27:05] left hand side. So this is this, this, this, this treasure from, you know, I need to look after it. And then. And [01:27:10] then the bottom. The lower left. Because his jaw is such. Which is why he’s had the problems. The [01:27:15] canine and the premolar don’t hit this thing. So I did this, like, slightly off the wall angled [01:27:20] crown. Yeah. So I’m like, so I do this wax up where I pull these across like that and [01:27:25] get the. So the upper canine is then loading vertically. Right. So I plan it all, wax it all, [01:27:30] do all the transfers. And I’m now at the point and everything was ten times [01:27:35] worse than I thought. So every time I did a crown, every single one had massive root caries like [01:27:40] insane. So I’ve done all these like. And everyone’s taking me longer. And then I the [01:27:45] one tooth that didn’t have decay was this upper seven. And when I do this scan and I walk around [01:27:50] the back of it on the scan, I can see there is massive root caries in the back of this. So I’m like, [01:27:55] I’ll crown that as well. No charge. I’ve missed it. Oh my God, this case has already cost [01:28:00] me a fortune. Anyway, the thing I didn’t assess one of the things was the two, the upper canine, [01:28:05] that it’s taking everything. It’s actually also kind of grade one plus mobile.

Payman Langroudi: No. [01:28:10]

Chris O’Connor: And so and so it’s just it’s just going to get I [01:28:15] need to get the work done to get the denture in to stop it overloading. But everything’s taking [01:28:20] me so long that it’s overloading. And so it’s getting more. And I’m like, I think it’s I’m just not sure [01:28:25] it’s going to hold up. Um, and so.

Payman Langroudi: I love this, that I really wanted to hear something like this.

Chris O’Connor: Is this [01:28:30] right? So at the minute, like I charged him a bit, but nowhere near enough in hindsight. And [01:28:35] like. And the other thing, this guy’s got a very complex medical history. He can’t have implants. So, um, [01:28:40] so, yeah, like, uh, to be confirmed, but to be to be finished. [01:28:45] But, uh, that one is, um, you know, I’ve not done anything wrong. And in a [01:28:50] way, no one else was touch it and I’ve gone there. But I’m trepidatious about this, [01:28:55] and I’ve got some backups. The way I plan, I always try and plan really hard for. I’m very big in, like when [01:29:00] my work fails, what are we going to do next? So I’ve got like extra rest and clasps where I could, but there’s just [01:29:05] nothing else on that upper left, So.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes that’s a situation.

Chris O’Connor: It’s just the way. Yeah. So I don’t I don’t [01:29:10] I don’t regret it. I think I probably just under uh I didn’t you [01:29:15] know, the learning point I have from that is now I very, very much will check [01:29:20] mobility assessment, I think, I think when I did the planning.

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t spot it early enough. [01:29:25]

Chris O’Connor: I didn’t even if I’d seen that it was that mobile, I probably would have done [01:29:30] the same. But at least it would have. At least I would have been more forewarned.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s. I like that one a lot. [01:29:35] I like that one a lot because we were all doing stuff like that at times, and [01:29:40] it’s when it’s a thin line. Yeah. And, and, and obviously the communication piece is very important with [01:29:45] the patient about that instead of setting expectations.

Chris O’Connor: And the alternative [01:29:50] really would be to clear them and do a full complete.

Payman Langroudi: And by the way, 20 years ago he would have been [01:29:55] in complete, you know, like yeah. And 100% by that point.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. And the plan, the way I’ve [01:30:00] done it all is to try and avoid him having a lower density. He’s found the denture so difficult and to keep him in an upper crown because I [01:30:05] thought he’d have a better quality of life. And now. But then, you know, it’s cost him quite a lot [01:30:10] because of it’s much more complex to keep the teeth and work around them than it is to take them out and do [01:30:15] a complete. And now I’m like, have I done him a service by with [01:30:20] all this? I mean, I will cover it if if it goes wrong, it’s my fault, I will cover it, but I it [01:30:25] still I.

Payman Langroudi: Think we beat ourselves up, man, because, you know, the intent is the most important thing. [01:30:30] Yeah. Like, what was your intent? Your intent was to do your best thing for this guy. And you know that, of [01:30:35] course, we’re all perfectionists, and we want everything to go perfectly. But, you know, that’s [01:30:40] that’s the way it is.

Chris O’Connor: I mean, I’m very fortunate now in that I can charge enough on the ones that go well that I can. Yeah, [01:30:45] I, I and I again.

Payman Langroudi: What do you charge.

Chris O’Connor: For a rehab. [01:30:50] Yeah. Uh, they’re usually between like my, my fees are like. It’s like I don’t do implants. So they go [01:30:55] elsewhere. So for the rehabs, it’d be like 10 to 20 k, which probably is not that much down here, [01:31:00] but up in Newcastle. That’s that’s pretty good going money.

Payman Langroudi: What about an error you made [01:31:05] in incidental?

Chris O’Connor: Um.

Payman Langroudi: I made so many, I think.

Chris O’Connor: I think the [01:31:10] ones that are incidental are like, the ones that are are. There are like ones I’d find hard to [01:31:15] share because they’re they’re like. They’re like, um, they’re like, uh, [01:31:20] I mean, they’re not mistakes, really. I think, you know, one of the things was, I [01:31:25] mean, it’s a bit private. Um, I’m trying to think the [01:31:30] one I’m thinking of is is a bit private. Really? Um, I think, uh, [01:31:35] what I would say is I didn’t know anything about running a business. When I got into internal, [01:31:40] I, um, and I took some advice, like, or [01:31:45] got people involved, um, early on before I knew anything. And it’s [01:31:50] taken some, you know, disentangling from that. Um, so things like, [01:31:55] you know, giving shares quite early on, you know, whereas now I would very much [01:32:00] be like, you can earn those shares over a period of time. When I see when when you contribute for the work and things, [01:32:05] I think that’s um, that’s something accountants as well, like, you [01:32:10] know, I took some advice from a very reputable company and, you know, it wasn’t the best advice [01:32:15] in hindsight. I mean, we’ve had so many company restructures pay. I mean, we set up a holding company, [01:32:20] we’ve closed the holding company, we’ve opened another holding company. Like, I don’t know what I’m doing. You take advice and then in hindsight, [01:32:25] you’re like, you’ve given me the worst advice possible, you know? And it cost me like ten grand to undo this [01:32:30] company structure that I set up there. The things I think I’ve.

Payman Langroudi: You look at business [01:32:35] skill in the same way as you look at Dental skill or not. [01:32:40] I mean, because because, you know, that question of like having a mentor.

Chris O’Connor: Um, a good one, isn’t [01:32:45] it?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. No, I wish I had a mentor, a business mentor. I now [01:32:50] do I now do.

Chris O’Connor: You a paid one though.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But do you.

Chris O’Connor: Know what this is? What?

Payman Langroudi: I [01:32:55] wish I’d done it earlier. Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: Well, maybe.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, you go on Dental courses, you research [01:33:00] stuff, you watch what other people are doing. As a dentist. But then in business, I didn’t [01:33:05] go on any business courses. I muddled my way through. I made massive errors.

Chris O’Connor: Massive errors there. [01:33:10] The things aren’t they? And and like, um, maybe like the small print of some of the distribution deals, like [01:33:15] we got bit burnt on some things that like I thought would be covered with the manufacturer and like they cover, [01:33:20] they don’t send you a new product when it breaks, they send you a fuse and you have to spend [01:33:25] three hours dismantling and put the fuse in. You know, we’ve had that like that, that burnt because but [01:33:30] it was just naivety. I didn’t know that’s how it works. I mean, if you buy from China, that’s how it works. The warranty [01:33:35] is a warranty for the part and not for the product, and you are then charged to fix it. So [01:33:40] we’ve had to build we do repairs. We have our own repair room. We’ve taught ourselves that it’s a big part [01:33:45] of our business is repair, um, if we’re going to sell it, different things. You do know, we’re quite. [01:33:50] Yeah. We’ve got we’ve got a lot. We’ve got a lot of like. Well and go back around to one of your [01:33:55] early questions was when torvum with the Russia thing happened, I was like, well, the business is gone. We’re [01:34:00] dead. We’re dead in water. I’ve left my job. We are dead. And because we’re going to [01:34:05] not be able to import anymore. Now, as it turned out, we have been able to when there’s a tariff and, you know, and some people [01:34:10] won’t buy our products because of that and.

Payman Langroudi: Won’t buy.

Chris O’Connor: Them. Yeah. And by the way, like because they’re from Russia. [01:34:15]

Payman Langroudi: They won’t buy them.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. Which I absolutely respect. But for [01:34:20] me, what’s.

Payman Langroudi: It got to do with just because they are from Russia?

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. But you got to understand [01:34:25] from my point of view, the guys from Torvum are my friends. I have worked with them to develop products. I’m very good friends [01:34:30] with Oleg, who runs the business. Like I can’t like on a personal level, just [01:34:35] dropping them. Well, one I wouldn’t want to. And we love their products. And two, my [01:34:40] whole business is on that, so I’d have to walk away from it all. So I [01:34:45] get why people might question the morality, and people have done that to me. But I [01:34:50] mean, if you were in my shoes, it’s quite hard to do that. And and I don’t want and I didn’t want. [01:34:55] And I made that decision.

Payman Langroudi: It’s ridiculous man. Like, it’s a bit like saying, uh, my Saudi [01:35:00] distributor will stop buying from me because the UK backed Israel [01:35:05] in Gaza. What the hell? Where do things get? Where? Where do things ridiculous?

Chris O’Connor: Where do things get made? They get [01:35:10] made where the labour is cheap and they often have difficult. They have difficult, you know. You know, [01:35:15] if you buy it from China, you have genuinely not sure where it really, really gets made. You [01:35:20] don’t. And the supply supply chains are so complex. You look at some of the, um, [01:35:25] you know, like the face creams or the I don’t know, the products are, but there’s something you’re not supposed to use, but or they have [01:35:30] to be sourced, but like, there’s an absolute jungle out there. And [01:35:35] but anyway, back to the ToeJam was we once we’d done that when we sort of came out the other [01:35:40] side one, we bought a year’s supply of stock in case it got blown in case we couldn’t [01:35:45] get it anymore.

Payman Langroudi: Had to do that.

Chris O’Connor: And and we bought lots of stock and we crippled us. And then [01:35:50] two, we diversified. So we tried to find you. We were just happy doing that. [01:35:55] Products. We then got into endodontics Motors. We’ve pushed into [01:36:00] Handpieces handpiece repairs has become big. The training centre, I suppose hiring that out, running it. [01:36:05] We diversified to de-risk ourselves. Um. And I’m glad we did. Really? It’s [01:36:10] been all right. And and I quite like it.

Payman Langroudi: I find it difficult, like bringing in new, new items [01:36:15] insomuch as I feel like if you do, you know. Have you heard of [01:36:20] the restaurant?

Chris O’Connor: No. It’s, uh. Is that here? Is it fancy?

Payman Langroudi: It’s. [01:36:25] Well, it’s all over the world, but the. It’s not that fancy. It’s. It’s steak [01:36:30] and chips and sauce. Special sauce. Special sauce. Yeah. [01:36:35] And that’s the point. People go for the sauce, okay? And there’s no choice. That’s all they make. That’s all [01:36:40] they do. Yeah. You can. You can say, uh, well done. Medium or rare. [01:36:45] You can’t say medium well, medium rare. You can’t say that. It’s just that’s the only question they ask you. And [01:36:50] that’s what they bring. They do one thing very, very, very, very well.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I know that idea. [01:36:55] And I again, when I said to you about the the teaching side and the restorative [01:37:00] side of our business, and should I just focus on the core, you know, that that I just.

Chris O’Connor: I feel [01:37:05] like one feeds the other. So like, why did we get into so we developed our own range of, of hand instruments. [01:37:10] And I know you don’t like copy, but a lot of it is like they’re a copy of, you know, which one can we say?

Payman Langroudi: Which [01:37:15] one did you copy.

Chris O’Connor: Can we say the copy of LM? Um, and we did them. We did them [01:37:20] originally with the original handle, and I got a legal cease and desist. So we the only thing they have a. Anyway, [01:37:25] this is probably beyond. But we had to change the handle and a few things, and [01:37:30] then they’re fine now, but we developed them because I wanted them on the courses.

Payman Langroudi: We didn’t really develop them. You copied them. [01:37:35] Yeah, well you.

Chris O’Connor: Say that.

Payman Langroudi: But.

Chris O’Connor: Then so we we copy them. But then, you [01:37:40] know, you go to like 20 manufacturers to test them. You find them, you get the quality control where you want. We developed, [01:37:45] we designed the new handles ourselves. And then we also Design different tips, [01:37:50] so some of them are unique tips.

Payman Langroudi: Will you undercut LMR?

Chris O’Connor: Oh yeah. We’re like like we’re like £20 [01:37:55] Inc. VAT for an instrument.

Payman Langroudi: Wouldn’t it piss you off if someone did that to you?

Chris O’Connor: Uh, [01:38:00] I think I think it would be pretty. Um, what’s the word?

Payman Langroudi: And also par [01:38:05] for the course.

Chris O’Connor: No, it’d be pretty. It’d be pretty, like, disingenuous of me if I did. And people have copied stuff. [01:38:10] People have copied people copied my lectures all the time. They steal all the time off us. They steal my techniques. They steal [01:38:15] my technique. But, you know, I mean, that’s life, you know, um, that’s how it is. And, you know, [01:38:20] there’s things if you want to protect it with a pattern, you can because a lot of money. I just think, um, that’s kind of [01:38:25] how it is. And like. Yeah. So, so the rubber down clamps or the things that I’ve developed, you know, but [01:38:30] then, you know, it’s very difficult to beat us on price because we come in as low as we can.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:38:35] On that subject of, uh, the core. Yeah. Like look at look at a line. [01:38:40] Yeah. They, they, I mean the, [01:38:45] the valuation of that company. I mean, you can imagine they’ve got a few dollars. [01:38:50] Yeah, a line could have done bloody everything. Yeah, yeah, a line could do toothpaste. [01:38:55] A line could do whatever they could do. They could do anything in dentistry. They could [01:39:00] do dental chairs if they wanted to by a long way. The biggest company in dentistry right now. Yeah. Um, but [01:39:05] they do Invisalign. Yeah, but.

Chris O’Connor: We don’t.

Payman Langroudi: So we.

Chris O’Connor: Don’t, do we? [01:39:10] Do we limit to class one products in medical devices? Like, I try to do things that don’t [01:39:15] go out of date. So we and we we’ve got a reasonable sized warehouse but it’s not massive. So [01:39:20] I’m not going to start doing gloves or, you know, things that take up a lot of space like we have. And [01:39:25] we’re not we’re not trying. There already is a Henry Schein. There already is a dental sky. We’re not [01:39:30] going to do that. We’re never going to be able to do that. So we’re trying to hand select products that mainly associates wants to be honest. Like [01:39:35] kind of our target is maybe younger. We we obviously try and sell to everyone, but really [01:39:40] we’re trying to target those early years. What do you need to get good at. You need to get good at direct composites. You need [01:39:45] to have a decent set of sexual bands and you need to have photography. Photography. So we try and we try and [01:39:50] stock because that’s the market. I know that’s I’ve spent my whole career teaching people of that age. That’s who [01:39:55] I know. So we try and give them like what they need. And one of the things with the website, you’re adding extra [01:40:00] product thing we try to have like one of of we pick [01:40:05] our favourite composite polishing paste. Right. I don’t really want seven [01:40:10] different ones to pick from because it just boggles people. There’s a thing like if you get too much choice, [01:40:15] you get paralysed.

Payman Langroudi: Which one do you like?

Chris O’Connor: Uh, we use the Eve polishing paste. [01:40:20]

Payman Langroudi: We like the Eve one. Yeah, it’s good value.

Chris O’Connor: It’s like £15. And, um, it does a pretty good job.

Payman Langroudi: From Eve. [01:40:25]

Chris O’Connor: Uh.

Payman Langroudi: Through their UK distributor.

Chris O’Connor: So this is this is. These are delicate [01:40:30] questions. Payman.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t want to answer. I’ve got one other question here that you might not want to answer.

Chris O’Connor: You know, supply [01:40:35] chains are hard. Like, you know, we have we have we have an official line through.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Um, I’ve [01:40:40] thought about this question. You know, you don’t have to answer. You don’t have to answer. What’s the question you [01:40:45] didn’t want me to ask you?

Chris O’Connor: Well, I’m not bothered.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:40:50] an interesting idea.

Chris O’Connor: But I’m an open book. I guess I guess a little bit. [01:40:55] The Russia thing with the bands, I find. I find I’m sensitive on that.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t think that’s. I know why [01:41:00] you are. Because. Because Russia got demonised before now we’re. Trump has changed anyway, right? I [01:41:05] had.

Chris O’Connor: This guy. I had this guy I won’t mention again. But he, he he, he has a quite a big profile [01:41:10] on Instagram and he, he like I don’t know why, but he really took against the company for no reason. I [01:41:15] could see.

Payman Langroudi: Based on this Russia thing.

Chris O’Connor: No on, no no on I don’t know what it was. I think it’s maybe because [01:41:20] we didn’t give him overtures when we took on Trivium range because he, he was using [01:41:25] I don’t know what the problem was, but he, he wrote like quite a lot of, like, quite inflammatory stuff on Instagram about [01:41:30] us and was against like kind of our integrity, which, you [01:41:35] know, I have to say is important to me. Um, just I mean, yeah, it is it is important [01:41:40] to me, um, you know, and I think I found that deeply [01:41:45] upsetting, you know? Really? Was that that he doesn’t know me at all. [01:41:50] You know, he doesn’t know what we’re doing. He hasn’t. He didn’t pick up a call. He didn’t. He never gave me an opportunity [01:41:55] to. To say what? Like what his beef was. And let me explain myself. And I found [01:42:00] that. And then it was, like blocked away straight away from, from his Instagram. You know, I couldn’t see anything. And [01:42:05] he carried on. And every so often he will write something unpleasant and he might be um. And one of them [01:42:10] was when Russia did that thing and he, and he was like, well, you know, and he kind of wrote, [01:42:15] I’ll never use Russian products and sort of attacked us in that way. And and it was again, it was like this kind of, again. [01:42:20]

Payman Langroudi: Virtue signalling.

Chris O’Connor: But it felt it felt directed at me [01:42:25] in my integrity. Yeah. And, um, you know, no one’s. [01:42:30] No, no, nobody’s perfect at all. But I do try my best.

[TRANSITION]: Um.

Payman Langroudi: What’s [01:42:35] the best lecture you’ve ever been to? What comes to mind?

Chris O’Connor: Easy [01:42:40] one. Um. Pascal Venuti, 2015. Uh, the. [01:42:45] In Newcastle, they have a group called ni PD. Uh, they’re like a private, uh, study [01:42:50] group. I’m part of it now. I wasn’t at the time because I was a very poor academic and definitely not private. [01:42:55] And, um, they got him over because Oli Bailey, who I teach with, was became friendly with him. [01:43:00] Um, and they got him to come over and do it himself, to come and do [01:43:05] a.

Payman Langroudi: Face to face.

Chris O’Connor: Face to face two day. There’s probably about 40 of us there. And the man just [01:43:10] hit that clicker like so fast. He was just case after case after case [01:43:15] after case after case after case case class. And like, it’s weird because I love he’s quite, um, [01:43:20] I don’t know if you follow him on, but he’s quite, like, controversial, I think. But at the time he’s isolation, [01:43:25] he’s matrixing. And like, all of this kind of bio using more curved bands, [01:43:30] like a lot of that we learned from him. I mean, he pioneered I really think that tomorrow’s group pioneered stuff. [01:43:35] I mean, we, you know, my check as well. Success stairs. You know, we you know, [01:43:40] on our website, there’s a whole bit where we talk about how much influence they were on us and, um, [01:43:45] you know, and like, and then, you know, and at the time, all the vertical crowns and bits [01:43:50] and bobs was different people. But and weirdly, he seems to have totally gone off composite [01:43:55] and he’s all, he’s always like ceramic composites, rubbish and only ceramic. But at the time [01:44:00] there was this lovely class twos. And then he also did a bit on vertical preps, and it was weird because it was the best [01:44:05] lecture and it was really fast, quite difficult to understand, but worth the effort. [01:44:10] And it was and I just lapped it up. I was like taking in every minute. And then it [01:44:15] was funny because I best lecture ever and I was speaking to people and they were like, awful, couldn’t follow it. It’s [01:44:20] way too fast, you know, didn’t give any time to explain it. And I was like, absolutely loved it. And [01:44:25] then that day I bought all the bio clear, you know, bio clear bands. I went on this next [01:44:30] part of my journey with, with like, you know, I’m always.

Payman Langroudi: It was it was instrumental [01:44:35] in your actual career.

Chris O’Connor: So like matrices. Matrix bands I think I have, [01:44:40] I have almost every band ever made. Um, it’s like one of the things I’ve got a little bit of a hobby for [01:44:45] is like historical dentistry, and I have like, all these crazy old I just love it, I love, I [01:44:50] love, I quite, I feel quite, I don’t know, like as if dentistry is like this. [01:44:55] Like we’re custodians of a period of dentistry. Mhm. Like [01:45:00] I feel like when I worked at uni especially a big driver was kind of passing that flame and, [01:45:05] but also remembering all of like whenever I lecture I always try and give the history like the history of resin bonded [01:45:10] bridges, the history of why we developed zirconia or the iterations like, you know, we never [01:45:15] should we really ever forget cap tech crowns and their place in history. You know what I mean? Like, but like [01:45:20] I remember it better when I know that journey. And so matrixing, I’ve [01:45:25] got this lovely text that I used to make my master’s students read, which was like this tome from 1980s [01:45:30] with all and it’s just shows you all the bands we use now, like sectional bands, were developed [01:45:35] in 1956. The Paladins, you know, there’s nothing new under the sun. Payman saddle bands. They’re in this [01:45:40] text from 1920s. It’s.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your favourite Dental book?

Chris O’Connor: Uh, I [01:45:45] find Dental books a bit challenging sometimes. Attention span. Uh, I think [01:45:50] the one that’s had the biggest influence on my career would be Dawson’s TMJ smile, design, incredibly hard book, [01:45:55] incredible slog. Um, but, uh, every time I go back to it, I learn [01:46:00] something new. Um, the guy was, you know, again, in the context [01:46:05] of the time he was doing it, the guy was a monster. He was, you know, [01:46:10] and yeah, I mean, he’s changed, like, what an impact. And, [01:46:15] um. Yeah. And you look at the the cases at the back and you’re like, Holy moly. You know, you wouldn’t do it like that now.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:46:20] he was ahead of his time. Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: Way ahead of his time. And like again.

Payman Langroudi: If time and money weren’t of any [01:46:25] concern at all. Um, which course would you jump into tomorrow?

Chris O’Connor: Well, I [01:46:30] well, I’ve got two. Yeah. I’ve got two answers for you. One, if I could do anything, I’d go back [01:46:35] and retrain as a lab tech and do it. I would, just not, for I just would love it. I just [01:46:40] love to learn it. Yeah, I would love that. I taught myself quite a lot. I’d do all my own planning, [01:46:45] but I would love that. And then the other one, I suppose, is slightly related, because next month I’m going. I’ve managed [01:46:50] to get myself on the Exocad trainer course. I’m going to become a certified Exocad trainer. [01:46:55] As part of our course, we’re going to have 20 Exocad licenses because I want [01:47:00] to use it as a teaching aid. So it’s massive investment, but I’m the chance [01:47:05] to go. And what I would really love is to get to know the people and to kind of get, get, [01:47:10] get involved a little bit in development because there’s things on the Exocad. It’s an amazing program, but the [01:47:15] small things you’re like, if you could just do that, it makes such a difference. And I think my experience with companies, if you can get [01:47:20] in there a little bit, you could start to, you know, just have a little bit of companies love it.

Payman Langroudi: Companies love it.

Chris O’Connor: Actually [01:47:25] they do. Once you’re in.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: They they are so busy you have to knock on the door [01:47:30] a lot, you know. It took us nine months of trying to [01:47:35] get that distribution deal. Emailing every week. People make me laugh. They go. They try, try [01:47:40] to do something. They try once and they go, I’ve tried. Like, if I wanna work with a company, I’ll be there every [01:47:45] week until they work with me. Or tell me, leave me alone. That’s how we are [01:47:50] like that. They’re busy. Really, really busy. To get on their radar is hard. Unless. [01:47:55] Unless you’ve got a massive a major profile, like, you know, as we get [01:48:00] bigger, the doors open slightly easier.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: And that’s. That is a privilege [01:48:05] and a pleasure as well. And that’s what makes me enjoy it so much, because it’s so much easier [01:48:10] to get through those doors.

Payman Langroudi: Now let’s get on to the final questions.

Chris O’Connor: Yes. [01:48:15]

Payman Langroudi: Fantasy dinner party.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah, I’ve prepared three guests. I mean [01:48:20] prepared, so I won’t do a lot of remunerating. Uh, one of my my, [01:48:25] one of my favourite hobbies is cricket watching. I’m a big cricket fan, so I was like, I must have someone cricket. [01:48:30] And I thought about it and I think I would like Michael Atherton. I really enjoy, I enjoy [01:48:35] podcasts, I enjoy his commentary. He’s a very clever guy. He’s very insightful. I just [01:48:40] and I’d love to chat cricket for a while.

Payman Langroudi: Do you play as well?

Chris O’Connor: I did, and I wasn’t [01:48:45] particularly good, but I am a.

Payman Langroudi: I love watching it.

Chris O’Connor: I like watching it. I love more than watching it. It’s listening [01:48:50] to it and I my favourite day would be sunny day doing a job, [01:48:55] maybe doing some lab work with the cricket in my ear. Um. That’s my. That’s heaven. [01:49:00]

Payman Langroudi: Who else?

Chris O’Connor: Next one, I’m going to pick my favourite author. It’s Brandon [01:49:05] Sanderson. I don’t know if you’re if you’re into really high geek fantasy, that would be geek [01:49:10] fantasy. Yeah I.

Payman Langroudi: Am.

Chris O’Connor: Anything real? Anything real world, uh, [01:49:15] does nothing to me. If I read I Want to escape. And, um, again, Brandon [01:49:20] Sanderson is one of the top fantasy authors in the world. Uh, and I read those books, and I he’s [01:49:25] what’s.

Payman Langroudi: Like, what’s a couple of the book titles? If someone.

Chris O’Connor: Uh, you would be looking at [01:49:30] Mistborn and you would be looking at the Stormlight Archive, they’re big books. They’re like big [01:49:35] books. And, uh, yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: And who’s the third?

Chris O’Connor: The. [01:49:40] Oh. Oh, yeah, I’ve got a good one. There’s one of my things I’m enjoying most at the [01:49:45] moment is there’s a new podcast called The Rest Is Entertainment. Have you heard of it?

Payman Langroudi: And the rest is [01:49:50] politics.

Chris O’Connor: It’s the rest. It’s my flavour of the month. And it’s Richard Osmond and Marina Hyde that run it. [01:49:55] And Marina Hyde I could listen to or I love Richard Osman, but I wish he’d shut up because I just want listen to her. [01:50:00] She’s so, so sharp. She’s got such great takes.

Payman Langroudi: On check it out.

Chris O’Connor: She [01:50:05] is just I mean, the podcast is brilliant, but she is just I think she’s she’s a [01:50:10] columnist, but I’ve never read her. But I’m like she’s like, I don’t know, [01:50:15] bitchy in the best way. I love I love characters like that, you know, really acerbic and knowing. [01:50:20] And I could listen to her all day.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. And the final question is, [01:50:25] it’s like a deathbed question.

Chris O’Connor: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: On your deathbed, surrounded by your [01:50:30] loved ones. Three pieces of advice.

Chris O’Connor: Oh, God, I haven’t got three. I was planning for this one. [01:50:35] Three pieces of advice. Okay. My advice would be to anyone. [01:50:40] Would be to. The most important relationship in your life is the one you have with yourself. [01:50:45] And to really nurture and take care of that. And if [01:50:50] you don’t, you get a lot of symptoms and a lot of things, and it makes you difficult [01:50:55] to love in return and to love.

Payman Langroudi: So love yourself.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah I do.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Look after [01:51:00] yourself.

Chris O’Connor: Look after, you know the biggest one. Forgive yourself.

Payman Langroudi: Forgive yourself. Forgive yourself. An easier time.

Chris O’Connor: Yeah. [01:51:05] And, like, you know, it’s been a, like we’ve gone into it, but that’s been a real difficult [01:51:10] thing for me. And accepting yourself.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chris O’Connor: You know, and that will then allow you [01:51:15] to be to be better, to not be competitive with people like all these things we do [01:51:20] is because we’re insecure. Yeah, yeah. You know, and obviously that’s a journey and we’re never perfect. But again, [01:51:25] you forgive yourself for that. That’s so important. Yeah, yeah. Um, I think another one would be just to be [01:51:30] really, you know, open with people, with your feelings in arguments. I think [01:51:35] me and my wife had a day yesterday where we we’ve had a couple of things going on and we really try and [01:51:40] try and thrash them out and get deep on that and don’t leave it uncovered. [01:51:45] Uncover it all, you know, you know, if someone you love and you want to make up with, then expose [01:51:50] yourself, um, would be that. And, um, you [01:51:55] know, and maybe the other the other one is is be be always try and be kind. [01:52:00] Um, you know, I definitely don’t always haven’t always done that. Um, you know, when [01:52:05] you do something with, you know, that thing when you do something or you tell someone a secret, you know, it’s [01:52:10] you shouldn’t or, you know, there’s mal intent there, and I it makes me so mad at myself [01:52:15] whenever I do that. Um, you know, and I think people who are really kind one, [01:52:20] they are securing them like one of the kindest people like George Dennis. He’s very kind, but he’s also very [01:52:25] secure. Alan is very secure in himself, and he’s very kind because he doesn’t have to not [01:52:30] be kind. Whereas if you’re all twisted in, in, in that kind of way, then [01:52:35] you’re always competing and fighting. And I see that in myself over my life. And I would say. [01:52:40]

Payman Langroudi: This is self-confidence in it too, though. Yeah, but I remember George came here. He, one by one, introduced [01:52:45] himself to every single member of staff here. Hi, I’m George, what’s your name? What do you do here? Very [01:52:50] kind, very kind. But it takes a confident person to do that. You know, like, I was reflecting [01:52:55] on it myself, thinking if I came to your place, I wouldn’t be confident enough to go introduce myself [01:53:00] to each person, you know, even though I might want to, you know, it’s.

Chris O’Connor: But [01:53:05] but I think where does the the. Because people can be like. It’s funny because like, George [01:53:10] is quite outgoing and confident, but confidence comes from being happy with who you are. I really think it’s [01:53:15] all about that. That then allows you to be at peace with it. You know, I really you [01:53:20] know, I’ve got a way to go with that. But, like, I really think that is just so [01:53:25] cool. So core to life, that relationship with yourself.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Really [01:53:30] enjoyed it, man. Thanks for coming all this way.

Chris O’Connor: Cheers, man. I’ve enjoyed it.

[VOICE]: This [01:53:35] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go [01:53:40] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:53:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:53:50] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [01:53:55] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to [01:54:00] what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of [01:54:05] it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [01:54:10] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much [01:54:15] for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.