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[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is dental Leaders. [00:00:40] The podcast where you get to go one on one with [00:00:45] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Hap Gill onto the podcast. I was just thinking about how [00:01:00] we’ve known each other 20 years, some 2005.

Hap Gill: I remember [00:01:05] I came, I was trying to figure it out, and it was. Yeah. Uh, as [00:01:10] you said, it was with rod. Yeah, that I think you brought him over. Yeah. And it [00:01:15] was a night out in town. Was it or was it a [00:01:20] lecture? And I think it was a really nice, cool place [00:01:25] called The collection. You were you were guys, you guys were there and we briefly met [00:01:30] there. And then I think there was a lecture that rod was doing the next day.

Payman Langroudi: Q clinic, we did what [00:01:35] you.

Hap Gill: Came to that. Oh my goodness. If you remember back in the day. Oh my goodness. Are they still here. [00:01:40]

Payman Langroudi: No no no no no.

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Hap Gill: 2005 and I was, I was you know, I was very happy [00:01:45] when you said that. Exactly the same.

Payman Langroudi: Reason.

Payman Langroudi: I it’s a pleasure to have you, man. I mean, one [00:01:50] one thing that I’ve always thought about you is you were always way ahead of your time. Um, [00:01:55] especially back then. Back then, when no one was talking about occlusion [00:02:00] very much, no one was talking about customer service. And [00:02:05] both you and Raj Ahluwalia, who you choose to work quite closely together. Yeah. [00:02:10] I just always think about, you know, that some dentists are good with their hands and some dentists are good at the, [00:02:15] um, other side, the practice management marketing side. But there’s a few [00:02:20] who are good at both.

Hap Gill: I know it’s kind of there’s two aspects of it. I think if [00:02:25] we were I don’t know if we were into banking or if we were sort of, I don’t [00:02:30] know anything, any other profession. And there’s a certain mentality. I don’t know whether [00:02:35] it’s your upbringing or not. It comes from your parents, uh, whether it’s nature or nurture. [00:02:40] Um, and one of the things you have to do is to be brave and to be [00:02:45] willing to make mistakes in business and in clinically as [00:02:50] well. Yeah. I mean, one of the things that, um, I mean, I’ve got to [00:02:55] tell you a story on my first day. My first day of qualifying [00:03:00] at work. At work as an associate. I had 40 patients booked [00:03:05] in first day. My first day there was an interconnecting door, and I was kind of numbing patients [00:03:10] in one room and going to the other one and I, you know, I was, you know, and then there were families that come in together [00:03:15] sort of through private. Right. So this this was VTE, VTE. This was [00:03:20] VTE. So I was on a salary. Um, and then the year after [00:03:25] that, I, um, got an associate job. And on [00:03:30] my first again on my first date. So this is the second year [00:03:35] I’ll be qualifying. Um, I had 50 patients booked in. It was. It was the [00:03:40] it was the day of, um, you know, there was no computers.

Hap Gill: You were writing, scrawling things. It [00:03:45] was like. So I had set 9 a.m., I had three patients, and, you know, it was like three [00:03:50] patients booked in not double, but but trouble. But I remember my old boss saying to me, I, you know, I wanted [00:03:55] you to be impressed by how busy we were in this diary. But on that first day, I [00:04:00] numbed someone up. I remember this, really. I numbed someone [00:04:05] up. And then I got him to sit in the waiting room. And I’ll be with you soon. And I. Half [00:04:10] an hour went by. An hour went by, an hour and a half went by. And I kind of forgotten [00:04:15] about him. So he, she, she, he sheepishly went to the front [00:04:20] desk and said, oh, I think, I think, uh, I think the dentist has forgotten about me. So [00:04:25] she knocked on the door not to know. Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. So I treated him. But [00:04:30] the worst thing about that story in that two hours, it was there he had his bike stolen. But [00:04:35] you know, I, I learned I qualified 91. I kind of bashed the Nash. [00:04:40] I still know how to say that these days, you know. You know, I did that.

[BOTH] : How many years?

Hap Gill: Three years. [00:04:45] Maybe four years. Yeah. Um, and then instead of the the point of the story is, [00:04:50] you know, I after those 3 or 4 for years I was thinking, I can’t work [00:04:55] like this. I need to, you know, learn something different. So [00:05:00] I did start going on courses and it was Mervyn Drouin. Um, and [00:05:05] there was the, um, the other chap he had to his first name and [00:05:10] his last name were two first names. But I’ve forgotten what he’s what it was. But was it Lester [00:05:15] or something like that. But anyway, so those kind of openings. Yeah. So Ellis.

[BOTH] : Paul Ellis. [00:05:20]

Hap Gill: Paul.

Payman Langroudi: So Paul handed.

[BOTH] : Then.

Hap Gill: Yeah. So they open, you know, open up my [00:05:25] eyes to the kind of. Yeah. Yeah. To kind of the work that we’re doing. [00:05:30] Yeah. Um, and then I bumped into a [00:05:35] chap in Weybridge a few years later and um, [00:05:40] beautiful practice in Weybridge. It was above a coster, actually [00:05:45] a beautiful practice. And, um, I just saw the work he was doing, [00:05:50] his photography for photography was incredible. And I said, you [00:05:55] know, where did you learn how to do all this stuff? And he said, you know, I learned this at the Pankey Institute. [00:06:00] And one of the things about the Pankey Institute of Miami is that they, um, [00:06:05] you know, that brave side of you, it’s not really the clinical, the dental side [00:06:10] of that brave side of you. Yeah, they really sort of encourage that. And they kind [00:06:15] of they really get the ball rolling in regards to that. I remember being [00:06:20] the only Brit, um, sat in that room. Uh, so there was, there was, [00:06:25] um, one Canadian, 16 from the US, and it was me. Um. [00:06:30]

Payman Langroudi: And had you gone straight after your three year bashing the Nash? [00:06:35]

Hap Gill: Uh, no, it was a couple. It was a couple of years later. But, um, when I met, [00:06:40] uh, Milton over at, uh, Weybridge, it was literally I was looking at flights [00:06:45] and booking it the next day, and within the next course I was on there. I don’t [00:06:50] remember. I don’t remember the first day. Rich green was giving the lecture [00:06:55] and it was nothing to do with dentistry. He said, design your ideal day. And it [00:07:00] was basically what you’re doing when you wake up, where you wake up, [00:07:05] where you go to work, and then what you do when you get home and everything that happens in between. [00:07:10] And we kind of spent quite a bit of time on that. I remember, uh, Dave [00:07:15] was sitting next to me as he was telling his story. He started to cry. And I think, what’s going on here? Um, [00:07:20] so it was, you know, and I think, oh, these are just Americans. They just just.

[BOTH] : Just just [00:07:25] just just.

Hap Gill: The way they are. Um, I’m just here for the bite. I’m just here for the teeth. [00:07:30] That’s what I thought, you know, occlusion. Um, but I think it took me a few years [00:07:35] to realise what Rich was actually trying to get to. Um. You don’t, you [00:07:40] know, it’s. Some people think that they’re going to. They’re going to learn occlusion or anything. [00:07:45] Composite building or anything. Just sitting in a lecture and going. Going on a course, [00:07:50] um, doing a hands on and somehow you’re going to [00:07:55] have this sort of magical dust sprinkle on, you suddenly become this master [00:08:00] composite or master occlusion. But you’ve got to be brave, and you actually have [00:08:05] to go out there and implement this stuff and, and, you know, do things that are reversible. [00:08:10] So what I did was I did splints on my wonderful receptionist [00:08:15] Jan, at the time. And, you know, I was sort of grinding around sort of hours and hours [00:08:20] on this splint learning about occlusion. Um, but, you know, you know, [00:08:25] as I said in answer your question, way beyond my time, I think I was probably born like that. [00:08:30] Um. Born brave. Um, and, [00:08:35] you know, I do learn from my mistakes as well.

Payman Langroudi: Do [00:08:40] you think people are born brave? I mean, don’t you? Can’t you sort of think back to influences in your childhood [00:08:45] that Made you look outside the box, because I think back to [00:08:50] my childhood and yeah, you know, we had a revolution, ran away and then, you [00:08:55] know, went to school with people whose parents were doing all sorts of amazing [00:09:00] things. And that opened my eyes to that. Yeah, yeah. And I often think back and think, what? [00:09:05] I’ve done all of this. If it wasn’t for some kid when I was eight telling me about his.

[BOTH] : Dad’s [00:09:10] factory, you know.

Hap Gill: You’re right. I mean, there is I think there’s a certain sort of genetic component, but it is [00:09:15] your sort of your upbringing. Upbringing? Certainly.

Payman Langroudi: What did your parents do?

Hap Gill: Um, [00:09:20] we my dad, we lost about 18 months ago. We. He [00:09:25] was a retired teacher. And I’ve got to say, [00:09:30] he was. I’m not just saying he was by far the most popular teacher in his school. He’s. [00:09:35] He taught in Shepherd’s Bush at Saint Stephen’s School. What [00:09:40] subject? Um, it was a primary school. It was mainly maths, but you got to do everything, and I remember [00:09:45] it was right opposite the BBC TV studios. I think it’s [00:09:50] they’re putting a bunch of apartments up there.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s very cool now.

Hap Gill: Um, and then I remember every [00:09:55] year in the summer fete, the whoever was Doctor Who at the time [00:10:00] would show up. And then I remember, um. Oh, was [00:10:05] it, was it Tom Baker? Yeah. And, and with the curly hair. So he would turn up with his booming voice and, [00:10:10] you know, as a, as a ten year old, I saw this guy that was about eight foot tall. Um, [00:10:15] but, you know, my dad was a teacher, but he [00:10:20] was always a he was also a mentor to all to those kids. And no one got [00:10:25] as many, uh, Christmas cards and, uh, sort of thank you cards, [00:10:30] uh, as presents on the last day of term. Uh, compared [00:10:35] to anyone else. I’m not just saying that. So I found him, um, you know, very inspirational, [00:10:40] especially with his kindness. Um, and he’s willing to a soft nature and is willing to [00:10:45] help, um, others. Uh, my mom was, um, [00:10:50] she was an accounts clerk for BA, so we took advantage of the, [00:10:55] uh, uh, the, the BA discounts for many, many years.

Payman Langroudi: Did you live in that part of [00:11:00] town?

Hap Gill: I was part of the Hounslow. Hounslow? Massive, you know. Yeah, exactly. And, [00:11:05] you know, I mean, thinking back, I had a I had a wonderful childhood, you know, it was it was great. Um, [00:11:10] it was sort of growing up in the 70s, uh, and [00:11:15] sort of early 80s with all the kind of, um, the, you know, the patchy bashing, [00:11:20] the sort of the racism and all that kind of stuff. You know, it’s I have no regrets regarding that. It’s character [00:11:25] building stuff. You know, it’s, you know, a lot of people think that I sometimes [00:11:30] can be a little bit standoffish and a little bit harsh and don’t take fools, you know, lightly, [00:11:35] really, but it’s kind of, I don’t know, I just don’t have time for that nonsense. You know, from. [00:11:40]

Payman Langroudi: Do you reflect on your kids now being sort of. I guess [00:11:45] more call it privileged and inverted commas. Do you reflect on the idea that they’re [00:11:50] not being formed?

Hap Gill: I mean, I don’t know. It’s funny because my, um, [00:11:55] my oldest is is just turned 13. Remember when we [00:12:00] were doing the, um, he had lots of tantrums [00:12:05] with difficulty when he was preparing for his, uh, 11 plus. Um, so one [00:12:10] of the things I used to do to inspire him was actually to drive him to where I used to, [00:12:15] where I grew up. So the thing is, in Hounslow West, I mean, you know, everyone [00:12:20] used to tend to their gardens. It was beautiful rose bushes, etc., but everything’s all tarmac off now. [00:12:25] There’s about three cars in the driveway and you know, there’s it’s it’s an interesting [00:12:30] place to be. So, um, I just said, look, you know, this is where I came from. [00:12:35] You do not live anywhere like this. And I used to say, you know, if you don’t study hard, Um, [00:12:40] you know, this is kind of, you know, where you’re going to end up. And then I [00:12:45] always used to take him to Filton rubbish dump as well. And I say, look, you know, this is a really, really [00:12:50] important job. Someone’s got to do it, but I don’t want you to do it. Um, I [00:12:55] think it still didn’t work. I think it was just really that it was just really the pressure [00:13:00] of. That was about six months before, I think three months before when he thought, oh, I’ve got to get my act together. [00:13:05] He started, you know, he started sort of getting, um, into that, um, [00:13:10] into his exams. And thankfully he did well. But, you know, I think, [00:13:15] I think the boys, they do. Um, I mean, [00:13:20] Adrian is ten and Dane is 13. And again, they [00:13:25] they do they do appreciate that they’re more they’ve got a better upbringing, the more privileged [00:13:30] than than myself and my wife. I mean, my wife, I mean, she grew up in. [00:13:35]

Payman Langroudi: Lithuania.

Hap Gill: In in a small village, um, is [00:13:40] sort of almost like a small hamlet in a small village in the middle of nowhere in, in Lithuania. And [00:13:45] and the boys say, you know, do you do you do used to hunt with spears. And did you used to point [00:13:50] at the sky when the, when the aeroplanes used to fly over. But, uh, you know, my [00:13:55] wife, you know, they didn’t always have running hot water and they, you know, their loo was in the [00:14:00] back garden. And, you know, she used to tell me lots of stories and, and the boys now, [00:14:05] you know, we were we were in Paris, um, a couple of weekends ago, just the beginning of [00:14:10] Easter. And they were really disappointed that the hotel did not have a swimming pool. So, you know, that’s [00:14:15] kind of the the difference these days.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, but [00:14:20] you how do they kids identify? Do they identify as British [00:14:25] or what do they.

Hap Gill: I mean, I always joke I mean, you know, you’re kind of you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Not Sikh.

Hap Gill: Are you? [00:14:30] Yeah. That’s my heritage. Um, and I always joke, and, you know, [00:14:35] I’m proud of my Hounslow upbringing. You know, that’s a really amazing [00:14:40] childhood. Made lots of wonderful friends that I still, you know, hang out with. Um, [00:14:45] and, um, I, you know, I tell them as a joke, you know, you’re not half Indian, half [00:14:50] Lithuanian, you’re half Hounslow Indian. Okay. You know, that’s that’s what you are. Um, and, [00:14:55] you know, we’ve taken them to India and they’ve, um, that, [00:15:00] you know, they, they, they do know that they are of Indian heritage and that they are of [00:15:05] Lithuanian heritage. And but I do tell them, you know, if England were playing, [00:15:10] um, Lithuania.

Payman Langroudi: Was that Norman Tebbit.

Hap Gill: Test in. This [00:15:15] is interesting. So if England were playing Lithuania, um, who would you [00:15:20] support in football? Who do you support? He says England. I said If England [00:15:25] playing Lithuanian basketball, who would you support? He says Lithuania. [00:15:30] And I said, okay, if England were playing India in cricket, who would you support? [00:15:35] He said India. And he and he and he says, you know, you’ve got to go with the winners. And and that’s [00:15:40] I’m quoting him and you know, but they are they they do know that that’s their heritage. [00:15:45] But they do see themselves as English and.

Payman Langroudi: They speak either of the other languages.

Hap Gill: No. Um, [00:15:50] we we took the boys to, um, it [00:15:55] always brings a smile to my face because they absolutely hated it. Um, they, um, [00:16:00] we took it to Lithuanian class on a Saturday morning. Um, [00:16:05] right up until lockdown. And, um, and then after lockdown, [00:16:10] it kind of kind of faded away. So we haven’t done that. So the eldest one can say [00:16:15] hello and sort of greetings and goodbye and thank you, that kind of thing. But the little one. No, it’s all kind of, you know, it’s [00:16:20] all it’s all gone now.

Payman Langroudi: And do you go once a year to Lithuania as well or.

Hap Gill: We try [00:16:25] and go there a couple of times a year, a couple of times a year, a couple of times. Yeah. I mean I really like it. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: I liked it a lot last. [00:16:30]

Hap Gill: Year when I went to Vilnius.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a wonderful.

Hap Gill: Time. You know, we, you know, we go to Vilnius. We go to [00:16:35] Kaunas. We’ve been to the the beach resorts. But I also like being in the village because [00:16:40] there’s absolutely nothing to do. And it’s like, you know, you literally it’s sometimes it’s good to have nothing to [00:16:45] do because you make your own entertainment and you’re, you know, sat in the backyard garden and, you know, um, [00:16:50] watching the world go by.

Payman Langroudi: I’m going to ask you a question. Right. And I want you to bear [00:16:55] in mind before you answer the question, I want you to bear in mind that we all, you [00:17:00] know, the filter that we all kind of tend to tell younger [00:17:05] dentists to do what we did.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I want you to bear that in mind. I want you to [00:17:10] discount for that. Yeah. So now if one of your kids decide [00:17:15] to be a dentist. Yeah. What would you advise them to do? Like, and [00:17:20] bear in mind, they don’t have to do the three years of age that you just because you did it. Do you see what I’m saying? [00:17:25] So if you had to design their career, if you wanted to design their career, yeah. How [00:17:30] would you where would you tell a young dentist Now to start and go and and which kinds of decisions [00:17:35] should they make? And what are the things that they should pay more attention to?

Hap Gill: I think I think personal [00:17:40] development is really, really important in whatever profession you go in. Um, I think communication [00:17:45] is extremely important and you have to learn it. Um, [00:17:50] I mean, even Tai I mean, it’s a skill that needs. It’s a skill. I mean, Tiger Woods has [00:17:55] got a coach. He’s a he was the best, uh, golfer in [00:18:00] the world, but he still had a coach. So people, um, you know, think they know how to communicate. So I think that’s [00:18:05] a really important skill. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: So when you say communication, what would you tell them [00:18:10] to learn?

Hap Gill: I think I think listening skills are really, really important. [00:18:15] There’s there’s hearing and then there’s listening. And one of the things about listening [00:18:20] is to really make sure that the patient [00:18:25] is understood is to actually repeat back what they just said. And, you know, [00:18:30] and ask them, is that is that what you’re you know what you’re talking about? Is that what you said? Well, [00:18:35] that’s a really important thing. Um, and then, you know, communication [00:18:40] also, um, you know, it helps with, you know, you [00:18:45] want to create a win win situation with your patients. Yeah. Um, not everyone that comes [00:18:50] into my practice drops 50 grand and sort of does a rehab. But the thing is, uh, you [00:18:55] know, there’s a certain way of communicating, um, that this work needs to be [00:19:00] done, and you have to at least have the balls to have that [00:19:05] conversation. Have the conversation with the patient exactly the [00:19:10] same as you would have with the loved one. You know, if you’re if you’re, um, if your mom or dad [00:19:15] or your, um, brother or sister in the chair, there’s a certain way you talk. [00:19:20] There’s, you know, you tell the, you know, the what’s wrong and what you want to do about it. [00:19:25] Yeah. Um, and then do that with all the, uh, with your patients, um, [00:19:30] with your non, uh, family member patients as well. Just talk to them [00:19:35] the same. Hopefully you understand what I’m saying.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. No, I actually teach that. I teach that for whitening. [00:19:40] You know, people have difficulty bringing up whitening with their patients. And I say, well, just if it was your daughter [00:19:45] or your mother, what would you tell them about whitening?

Hap Gill: Yeah, exactly. And the thing is, [00:19:50] um, you know, it’s it’s there’s [00:19:55] almost kind of like I tell my associates at my practice, uh, [00:20:00] the specialist. No one cares at your specialist. The only person that cares your specialist is you [00:20:05] and the GDC. But no one actually cares. You know, the patient wants you to be [00:20:10] listened to and they want to be treated well. They want to be seen on time. They want you to be kind. They want [00:20:15] you to have a painless, um, experience. The, um, [00:20:20] you know, it’s and the other thing that I, I tell [00:20:25] my And even my specialists are half my age. But, I mean, you know, my associates [00:20:30] at the practice. You know, I say, you know, be a doctor, okay? [00:20:35] You know, you’re the doctor. You’ve got to be a doctor. What I mean by that is, um, [00:20:40] you know, it’s I think one of the things you were talking about, young dentists, they’re fantastic [00:20:45] at writing notes, and they’re fantastic at giving the patient every single [00:20:50] goddamn option under the sun. But that poor sucker that sat in [00:20:55] your chair. It’s guidance. It needs guidance.

Payman Langroudi: Agreed. I feel that with lawyers. [00:21:00] Right. I’ve got a difference in a good lawyer and a great lawyer. Yeah. Is that a good lawyer? Will tell you. These are the three options. [00:21:05] The great lawyer would say. These are the three options. I would pick option two.

Hap Gill: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, [00:21:10] it’s it’s a fantastic, you know, uh, profession. Um, I was certainly not [00:21:15] discouraged. My kids. Um, but I think there’s the dental part of it is almost [00:21:20] kind of the easiest part of it. You know, it’s it’s dealing with the human side of [00:21:25] the patient, and, you know, your internal sort of, um, limits as to, [00:21:30] you know, what you can accomplish, uh, clinically. Um, you know, that that [00:21:35] is more you know, what I think you should be working on. So for my boys, I would [00:21:40] not discourage them. I would, you know, I would.

Payman Langroudi: That’s refreshing to hear.

Hap Gill: Because I would encourage them to, [00:21:45] you know, to do it if that. You know, if, if that is what they want to do. But I [00:21:50] mean, my older son, he’s a, he’s a I can always already see it. I mean, he’s kind of he’s more of an entrepreneur. [00:21:55] He’s, you know, buying his big bags of Haribo and kind of splitting it and then flogging it to his mates. [00:22:00] Is he there? Sugar free, of course.

Payman Langroudi: But yeah.

Hap Gill: Yeah, yeah, but they’re not, uh, and the [00:22:05] little one at the moment, he’s extremely creative. So you know, is that kind of, you know, where’s, [00:22:10] where’s this going to lead the business side of the creative side. But I just, you know, I will encourage [00:22:15] them whatever they want to do. But it’s a it’s it’s an amazing profession.

Payman Langroudi: So you say that though because [00:22:20] whatever they want to do, it’s often turns into they have no idea.

Hap Gill: Yeah, well, [00:22:25] at the moment it’s no idea.

Payman Langroudi: But even a 15 year old. 16 year old. Yeah, yeah, a lot of [00:22:30] them. I know there’s some who do. Yeah, yeah. But a lot of them, in my experience, my kids are a bit older [00:22:35] now. Yeah. They have no idea. And then the weird thing about it is that all this worthy [00:22:40] talk about let them do what they want to do. Yeah. Sometimes you end up giving the same [00:22:45] advice as your parents gave you. Just study and you’ll be okay as a dentist. [00:22:50]

Hap Gill: So you can’t become a doctor.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And it’s a little bit sad because I can see [00:22:55] with you you’re quite an evolved character. You’re not, you’re not. You’re not the typical [00:23:00] person like you. Look at you. You like dressed differently. You think differently.

Hap Gill: In which [00:23:05] way am I dressed differently?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Do. You always think differently. [00:23:10] That’s one thing I always think about you. Um, but. But at the same time, [00:23:15] it’s amazing how much of those things still stay in you.

Hap Gill: I mean, I mean, the thing [00:23:20] is, I’ve got to I’ve got I’ve got to I’ll tell you something. And the thing is, I’m not entirely sure [00:23:25] what I should say, but I’m going to say it anyway. The one of the things about being brave [00:23:30] is, and sort of learning from others is I was once [00:23:35] at a friend of mine, had a PR company, and he [00:23:40] was unfortunately, we lost him in 2008, [00:23:45] but he was one of the most inspirational people [00:23:50] that I I’ve ever met. But I [00:23:55] don’t know, I should tell this story, but I’m going to say it. You can cut it if you want to. So, um, so [00:24:00] we were we were at lunch, so it was me and, uh, my buddy al, and, uh, [00:24:05] my friend, and he he said I was just going to the loo. He disappeared [00:24:10] for half an hour, and I was thinking, you know, you [00:24:15] know, um, and then he sort of turned up, we’ll look into sort of hot and sweaty and whatever. And I was thinking, Harry, [00:24:20] what the hell you do? You know, we’re having lunch. What you doing? You went for a dump in this. You know, a wrestle [00:24:25] or whatever. Yeah. No no no no no, I, I, you know, I met this girl [00:24:30] as I was going to the loo, and I took her downstairs and I was shaking [00:24:35] her and then I came back upstairs as you do the deed. Go on. And then and [00:24:40] then and then the thing is. But he’s he’s always been like this. He’s always kind of. [00:24:45] He was, you know, um, he had millions invested, you know, with [00:24:50] a.com bubble and, um, you know, the ladies used to just fall to [00:24:55] his feet. So. And the other thing is from being brave, um, [00:25:00] and again, this is, you know, whether you’re a dentist or, uh, [00:25:05] in the dating world or anything, it’s all kind of quite similar. You have to step out your [00:25:10] comfort zone. So I actually started studying dating, and actually [00:25:15] after a few years of study, I actually became a dating coach for a few years. So really fast [00:25:20] forward I was.

Payman Langroudi: In how.

Hap Gill: Interesting. I was in Sweden, um, in Stockholm, [00:25:25] and I was my special area was, uh, but you [00:25:30] didn’t think you were going to hear this out of my voice? Um, so my special area of interest, [00:25:35] uh, my speciality, not GDC qualified. My speciality, um, [00:25:40] was something called day games. So basically is where you seduce, um, girls [00:25:45] when you meet, um, you know.

Payman Langroudi: In the.

Hap Gill: Street, basically.

Payman Langroudi: Anyway, the pickup [00:25:50] artist.

Hap Gill: Things that you watch, all that kind.

Payman Langroudi: Of stuff on YouTube.

Hap Gill: And funnily enough, what [00:25:55] I learned there and the communication is when my business really [00:26:00] took off as well. It’s almost like this. It’s kind of like as [00:26:05] the dentist as as the, um, you know, as the guy [00:26:10] trying to pick up the girl. Um, it’s a lot of times when you grow up, you almost kind [00:26:15] of think that you have to impress the girl or patient comes in for a consultation. You have to impress them by [00:26:20] your qualifications. But no, it’s like I choose you as a patient coming to this [00:26:25] practice and there are certain things that you. But I’m a bit older and grumpier now, so I can [00:26:30] do.

Payman Langroudi: I never thought the Dental Leaders podcast would give us these skills, but take me through some of the Dating [00:26:35] Day game, uh, principles and then relate them to dentistry like [00:26:40] the one you just said.

Hap Gill: The thing is, you know what? You, um.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s say you see a girl in the street. Let’s [00:26:45] start there.

Hap Gill: There’s a couple of approaches. Okay. So one, the [00:26:50] approach that I don’t like, which is basically go up to her and say, you know, what’s the time? And, [00:26:55] you know, just kind of like that’s called an indirect approach. And that’s really about, um, [00:27:00] sort of it’s almost kind of like linking into what your, your, what you’re going to actually what you [00:27:05] actually want to say. And my preferred way of doing it is, um, going up [00:27:10] to goal and just kind of always kind of you have to go from the front because it’s from the, from the back, [00:27:15] you kind of cause surprising surprise him. So you just, you know, you’re just going to stop them [00:27:20] like that, and you say, you know, I just couldn’t. I couldn’t let you walk by. But, you know, without telling you [00:27:25] that I think you’re the most beautiful girl I’ve seen all day. And, um, [00:27:30] it kind of stops them in their tracks. It’s a very alpha trait, very manly trait that you need to have. [00:27:35] And then from there, you can link into, um, [00:27:40] you know, what are you up to today? And then what you need to do is you need to communicate [00:27:45] that you are successful, and a leader of men is the other thing. [00:27:50] And the way that you communicate that is that. Oh, I you know, I’m [00:27:55] just off to.

Payman Langroudi: Um, see my crew.

Hap Gill: Yeah. You say that. I’m [00:28:00] just. You can say that I’m off to my dental practice. I’ve got, you know, appointment. My patient is [00:28:05] waiting for me. Or you can say, you know, I’ve got a lecture to prepare for is that kind of thing. Um, [00:28:10] and then, um, you know, you link to, um, [00:28:15] what you like about them. Okay. And again, relating to this to the patients [00:28:20] is, um, you know, you’re listening to the patient. You’re telling [00:28:25] them. Um, it’s almost as though right at the beginning [00:28:30] you’re almost saying, you know what? I don’t even know whether I can help you or not. And you have got to be really, [00:28:35] really genuine with it. Uh, does that make sense?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Hap Gill: Of course. You know, it’s not saying, you know, [00:28:40] I can do this and show you a whole bunch of before and afters. It’s kind of, you know what, don’t you? And you have to [00:28:45] communicate. You know, I don’t even know whether I can help you or not. And, you know, all of these, you know, I [00:28:50] told you that I met, uh, Deville on a, um, my wife had [00:28:55] a sort of, you know, drunken Friday night out in vodka revolution. And the thing is, um, [00:29:00] I actually went out. Funny is when we first started dating, within a month, I [00:29:05] was actually out in Stockholm doing this kind of thing, and she just did not understand what I was saying. But anyway, that’s another [00:29:10] story. Um, but the thing is, she always said to me, you never did any of those lines on [00:29:15] me. You never did any of those. So I said, did I do this? I said, yes. Did I do this? Yes. So I went [00:29:20] through it all. But you were talking to my friend. You had your back turned to me and I said, [00:29:25] this is. This is what happens. This is the game. You know, this is what you do. And again, when it’s treated [00:29:30] to patients, it’s that lack of desperation. Yeah. That sort of air [00:29:35] of sort of, you know, um, it’s not arrogance because you’re actually listening, but, you know, there is [00:29:40] no there’s no desperation for you to, you know, take this, uh, uh, patient [00:29:45] on. And I remember, um, and the thing is, [00:29:50] you know, beauty is very common.

Hap Gill: Okay. You know, there’s beautiful girls [00:29:55] everywhere, but, you know, there’s always got to be a reason and [00:30:00] and why, you know, you choose a girl, and the girl has to convince you, [00:30:05] um, why you should choose her. And it’s the same with sort of with, with [00:30:10] patients as well. And one of the things that one of the things that I say, it’s an [00:30:15] Invisalign consultation. Um, one of the questions that I would [00:30:20] ask is, um, you know, I would explain [00:30:25] the system, what my TCO would explain the system, and, and, um, [00:30:30] and she would ask, you know, do you think you can do this? Okay. [00:30:35] And then the patient says, yes, that they they can do this. And then but [00:30:40] she follows up that question by saying, um, why do [00:30:45] you think you can do this? What is it about this system that you like? So they almost justifying it in their [00:30:50] brain as to why they can do this. And then it’s things like we will show, um, [00:30:55] samples of completed cases and say, you know, is that kind of what you’re looking for? Yeah. [00:31:00] And, uh, and then the patient says, yes, but again, uh, [00:31:05] you know, my tissue would say, um, what is it about these [00:31:10] these patients smiles that you like. So. It’s kind of getting really into their. Sort of [00:31:15] emotional side. And at the end of the day, this is not manipulation because the patient is the one that [00:31:20] really wins. Yeah. Always.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Does it extend [00:31:25] to the practice itself as well? I mean, is there is there like [00:31:30] a, um, idea that, you know, you know, we we’re not [00:31:35] we’re we’re fully booked sort of this sort of thing.

Hap Gill: Like, I mean, the thing is, we [00:31:40] one of our sort of, um, when we do our communication days, [00:31:45] uh, we do our team training days or our team meetings, one of the things that I [00:31:50] always say to, um, all of the team is, you know, you can say [00:31:55] no to a patient. You know, we are, um, you know, we don’t, um, [00:32:00] we only do dentistry. The patients need or want. Okay. [00:32:05] Um, we are proud of our fees. Um, [00:32:10] you know, we were blowing hard for it. We got very, very high standards. [00:32:15] Uh, but one of the things about, you know, I, you know, the point I do want to make [00:32:20] is especially with the new team that kind of start on. And I do [00:32:25] my philosophical induction, um, is that, you know, we’re not desperate, [00:32:30] you know, and we should never communicate this. As I said, [00:32:35] it’s a bit like dating.

Payman Langroudi: So Patty Lundy says to have some stuff about that. You take the [00:32:40] sign off the door and lock the door and. Yeah. And only accept patients [00:32:45] by referral.

Hap Gill: Yeah. We’re not, we’re not, we’re not quite like that. Yeah, we’re not quite like that.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s interesting, [00:32:50] it’s an interesting thing. And you know the non Dental cuz. [00:32:55] Yeah I mean I find it very interesting that what you’re saying in such as, I like the [00:33:00] idea of looking at other industries and trying to pull over things that [00:33:05] you learn from those other industries. And for me, now, I like food and restaurants and all that. [00:33:10] Right? So I’ve gone really deep into the whole, you know, hospitality world. Yeah. And [00:33:15] amazing lessons. You learn very similar lessons. You know, you get the old chefs complaining that the new [00:33:20] chefs are only interested in sous vide cooking or something, you know, like a kind of composite bond that, [00:33:25] you know.

Hap Gill: Have you ever watched. And this is our guilty pleasure below deck?

Payman Langroudi: No. [00:33:30]

Hap Gill: What’s that? Okay. You got to watch it. So it’s basically a superyacht worth probably about £200 million. [00:33:35] And then you pay. I think it must be about 100 grand for [00:33:40] every night that you so. So people hire it. Um. And it is. [00:33:45] So you’ve got the captain, and then you’ve got the crew that services [00:33:50] the guests, and then you’ve got the crew that services the boat. And the dynamics [00:33:55] I find is very much like working in a dental [00:34:00] practice. And, you know, yes, we do the five star service in, in [00:34:05] our practice. But if you ever watch that, it’s going to make you chuckle because you’ll see [00:34:10] so many of your of yourself in the captain and [00:34:15] so many of your team, team in the crew. And there’s lots of lessons [00:34:20] to be learned, um, from, from watching that. So yeah, you can extrapolate that into a dental practice. [00:34:25]

Payman Langroudi: So let’s talk about team management and communication with the team. Um, [00:34:30] you know, you must have been in practice for 30 years or more even.

Hap Gill: I’ve got to tell you a story. [00:34:35] So I think this is around about sort of November, about seven and a half years ago. Yeah. Um, [00:34:40] three of my team resigned in one week, so one resigned on a.

Payman Langroudi: Monday purpose [00:34:45] or.

Hap Gill: One resigned on a Monday. One one resigned on a Tuesday. The [00:34:50] one the last one was on Friday.

Payman Langroudi: But they do it together at the same time on purpose. No separate.

Hap Gill: Separate [00:34:55] thing. Completely separate. Yeah. And I thought, you know, I thought I was a running a great team and sort [00:35:00] of everything was hunky dory. And you know, we all got on really well. And, you know, I used to buy them cake and, you know, [00:35:05] take it for a drink and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. Um, but you know, the feedback. So I got [00:35:10] the last one was on Friday is, um, so [00:35:15] basically, um. So [00:35:20] the last night on Friday, I said, look, you know, I said, why, you know, what’s going on? And she [00:35:25] said, you know, I, you know, this is not for me anymore. It’s the the I’m [00:35:30] not getting on with this girl and I’m not getting on with that person. I’m not getting on with this person. And then [00:35:35] I called up the one that finished on Tuesday, and then she said the same thing. She wasn’t getting on with [00:35:40] the same the the same person, and they did not want to be in that environment. [00:35:45] Yeah. Um, and I was thinking, oh my God, I thought they were all getting on. So I thought, I’ve got [00:35:50] to do something about it. And then so what, what we did, um, from there [00:35:55] is I kind of sat down and I thought, [00:36:00] you know, we’ve got to kind of build a team that gets on, that [00:36:05] has a common purpose and a reason as to why they’re doing it.

Hap Gill: Um, [00:36:10] so we did. I thought we’d do a, um, a, um, morning [00:36:15] together. So we went to the, um, uh, I had, um, [00:36:20] the, uh, what is it called? One of the board rooms at the Peacham Hotel. Uh, just [00:36:25] up the road in Richmond. Um, and one of the most important things that [00:36:30] we worked on was getting to know each other. Okay. And then what [00:36:35] we do is we partner up, and then we, um, there’s a [00:36:40] list of questions. Who’s in your family, where you grew up, why [00:36:45] you work, and you’re not allowed to give the reason for money. Okay. Um, what [00:36:50] would your ideal job be? And then, um, what lessons did you [00:36:55] learn from growing up? And there was another question. I think it was something like, what? What what do you want from [00:37:00] your team-mates? Okay. So, um, so the you [00:37:05] get paired up and then you interview each other. Okay. Yeah. So this is actually [00:37:10] a trust exercise. And it was a listening exercise as well because your partner. [00:37:15] So they would stand up and you would introduce them and you would read your notes. [00:37:20]

Payman Langroudi: To.

Hap Gill: The group. To the group. Okay. So this is really did you, did you understand [00:37:25] what what the other person was about? Yeah. Okay. And then the two things that blew me away. Not everyone [00:37:30] always got the accurate information down. The other thing is, it’s the first time they found [00:37:35] out about stuff in each other. Even though they’ve been working for years. Yeah. This is the first time they knew [00:37:40] how interesting, you know, and it’s things and it’s little things. Like one of them, you know, had a, you know, a 605 [00:37:45] train. And then she was always late for it. And she got in the hunt because the next train was at six. [00:37:50] So it was little things like that. So sometimes if she could just get off a little bit early. Okay. [00:37:55] So it was just little things like that. And there was other little things like, you know. You know, I’m not in [00:38:00] this day. Please, can you check the workers in? You know, little things like that? Yeah. [00:38:05] And then one of the things that I did, um, also was [00:38:10] I just, I really wanted my team to understand why [00:38:15] I do this stuff.

Hap Gill: Okay. And then I played a video of, um, [00:38:20] a few smile reviews and, and, um, some testimonials. [00:38:25] Then I then I asked, you know, how did you feel watching that? And they all basically [00:38:30] felt warm, gooey feeling. And it’s good to do this for our patients. Um, [00:38:35] and I said, that is why I do it. Okay. There’s lots of ways to make money, [00:38:40] but that is the reason why I do it, because you’re making a little bit of a difference to people’s lives. Um, and they [00:38:45] continuously that’s the feedback that we get from our patients, whether [00:38:50] we improve their smiles or they can eat steak again or whatever. Um, [00:38:55] so that’s the other thing that we, um, worked on. And the other thing is we tend [00:39:00] to work on is the financials as well. Um, you know, everyone in the practice knows [00:39:05] how much it costs to run the practice. And again, it blows them away. Uh, [00:39:10] you know what we’re actually paying for, you know, sort of, you know, everything from the rates to, [00:39:15] you know, all the materials and and so on.

Payman Langroudi: Do you are you open with the Ebit [00:39:20] number.

Hap Gill: The.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:39:25] profit.

Hap Gill: Um, we we [00:39:30] do well.

Payman Langroudi: Know you open with the team on the Ebit.

Hap Gill: Number. Oh, the Ebit number. Oh [00:39:35] yes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Hap Gill: So the team stability and the profitability. Yeah. They know all about that. Yeah [00:39:40] I.

Payman Langroudi: Find.

Hap Gill: That useful. Yeah they do that. And we and we do um exercises [00:39:45] about sort of uh, one of my, um, the [00:39:50] ones we did last years, you know, you’re running a, you’ve got a, you’ve got a costume shop, it’s Halloween. You’re [00:39:55] really, really busy and you need to employ one more person. It will [00:40:00] cost you. Um. You know that much to employ this person for the two weeks run up to Halloween? [00:40:05] Would you employ them? So they all said yes at the beginning. Okay, but when I gave the numbers of the [00:40:10] of the of that costume store and what actually how much extra revenue they need to generate [00:40:15] to employ that person, they all said no. Yeah. So it’s interesting for them to get into [00:40:20] the dynamics of, you know, the, uh, actually, you know, what it costs to run [00:40:25] a, uh, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, well, while we’re here in this part of the port, let’s [00:40:30] get to the errors part. Yeah, we like mistakes. I want to hear management [00:40:35] errors you’ve made in your time and what you learned from them.

Hap Gill: Business management errors, management errors. [00:40:40] So I think that’s what I was sort of saying. Um, referring to earlier [00:40:45] on I wasn’t I wasn’t sort of in there managing as much as I, um, [00:40:50] should be. Um, hence I didn’t know what was going on with the team dynamic. So that’s one [00:40:55] of the things that, you know, mistakes I mentioned before.

Payman Langroudi: Do something about that person who is pissing [00:41:00] everyone off.

Hap Gill: Um. So [00:41:05] on Jazz’s first day, my first [00:41:10] day of work, I find that person. And she was [00:41:15] shouting and swearing at me, and, uh, jazz is in the room next door. It was about quarter [00:41:20] nine. And you’re saying, what the hell is going on here? So. But I mean, I you know, the thing is, I [00:41:25] always, you know, um, firing people. I think you have to do [00:41:30] that in a in a nice way as well. And I, and I hope I, I’ve done that over the years [00:41:35] and in a, in a sort of.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a tough part.

Hap Gill: Of it. It’s a tough part of the job. But you know I, you know, necessary. [00:41:40] Yeah. Necessary part of the job. But the thing is, you know, I always kind of I’m paraphrasing here now, I always [00:41:45] kind of say, you know, um, it’s, you know, you know, [00:41:50] we’re we’re this is just not the right place for you. You know, I’m hoping we can remain [00:41:55] friends at the end of all this, but this is not the right environment for you. You know, that’s how [00:42:00] we tend to.

Payman Langroudi: You ever had to fire someone who laid their life down for you?

Hap Gill: Uh, no.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:42:05] have, and I was talking I interviewed the of of fear from uh, uh, [00:42:10] Pearl. Pearl. I yeah, he he his first company, they sold [00:42:15] for $3 billion or something. And then this one, he’s growing. And [00:42:20] I asked him that question and he said every single person he’s fired. Yeah, has laid down their lives [00:42:25] for the company because by the time it gets to him. Yeah, that’s that’s the [00:42:30] person that they’re having to fire. Yeah. And it’s tough man.

Hap Gill: It’s it’s it’s really [00:42:35] difficult.

Payman Langroudi: There’s someone who’s done something gone way above and beyond. Yeah, yeah, that [00:42:40] I remember when when that thing happened, I thought, this person is going to be with us till the end. Yeah, but then [00:42:45] the job outgrew that person. Yeah. And, and and, you know, it’s it’s even harder. And yet, [00:42:50] if you want to be the leader, that’s one of the roles, right?

Hap Gill: That’s one thing. Are you friends with any [00:42:55] of your employees?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Unfortunately, I’m too friendly with all of my employees.

Hap Gill: Yeah. So [00:43:00] that’s what I mean. So, you know, with friends, have you had them around for dinner and sort of. Yeah. So.

Payman Langroudi: But then we’re a partnership. [00:43:05] Yeah. So in a partnership, it’s different because you can have a good cops and bad cops. Yeah. And [00:43:10] and and all of that. Yeah. You know, we’ve had people stay here for 15 years or 16 years. [00:43:15] You end up becoming friends. Right? There’s no doubt about that. But I don’t know. So, man, that [00:43:20] that was one era. Um, did you ever think. I mean, did you ever think of [00:43:25] having more than one practice? Because if you’ve got more than one practice, you certainly haven’t got [00:43:30] oversight over everything that’s going on.

Hap Gill: I mean, one of.

Payman Langroudi: Are you too much of a perfectionist [00:43:35] for that?

Hap Gill: So you know what it is. It’s quite often [00:43:40] I do I do hear, you know, bandied around that you can brand certain [00:43:45] types of dentistry. I mean, I don’t think you can. Uh, there is branding [00:43:50] in dentistry, but if you look at, say, an orthopaedic surgeon, uh, if you look at [00:43:55] an obstetrician, um, you know, how do you brand that? You [00:44:00] know, it’s there is a certain type of patient that will seek you out, and [00:44:05] that’s for what you do in your reputation. I remember going back to when, [00:44:10] um, Arian was, was, you know, uh, was pregnant with Arian, and we were [00:44:15] looking for an obstetrician. And our criteria wasn’t this sort of branding or who [00:44:20] the cheapest guy is in town? I was asking my doctor mates, you know, who would you recommend? [00:44:25] Um, so having another practice, um, [00:44:30] unless it is very, very local, you kind of walk in between. And you did a couple of days here and [00:44:35] a couple of days. It would be very, very difficult to replicate your, your service, um, in both [00:44:40] those practices.

Payman Langroudi: I hear you, I hear you and and by the way, there’s nothing wrong [00:44:45] at all with one A perfect one. One place that you’re perfecting, continually [00:44:50] perfecting. Yeah, yeah. It’s one of the wonderful things about our our job that [00:44:55] you can in one practice. Have a great life, wonderful life. But [00:45:00] you accept that if I walk into a Louis Vuitton in [00:45:05] Mumbai. Yeah, or in Los Angeles shop, I [00:45:10] don’t give a damn. But let’s imagine I’ve never been to a Louis Vuitton show. But you [00:45:15] accept the experience will be the same.

Hap Gill: And that’s what.

Payman Langroudi: I’m saying in that.

Hap Gill: Limited field. That’s [00:45:20] why I say you can brand the practice.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, no, but I agree with you because I’ve had I’ve [00:45:25] had someone sitting here a corporate type, and he was saying, yeah, the experience [00:45:30] is the same in all whatever number of sites it was. And then it came [00:45:35] down to when I asked the questions, it turned out the experience before you get to the dentist. Yeah, [00:45:40] it’s the same. But once, once they’re through that door, the experience he’s got, [00:45:45] he goes. And he abdicated it into total clinical freedom. Yeah. So [00:45:50] so, you know, the experience could be all sorts of different things based on based on that. So I accept.

Hap Gill: That. [00:45:55] I mean, the thing is you can have systems for how to how to answer the phone, how to welcome someone, how to [00:46:00] say.

Payman Langroudi: Hi, clinical systems to.

Hap Gill: Know. Yeah, you can have clinical systems.

Payman Langroudi: I’m sure you’ve got loads of clinical [00:46:05] systems, right. That you’re teaching your associates.

Hap Gill: Yeah. They I mean you know what to do in [00:46:10] say, you know, an attachment and delivery appointment. This is the way that I do it. How to do retainers and [00:46:15] so on. I do you know, try and.

Payman Langroudi: You know, photography co diagnosis all [00:46:20] the first parts anyway you can.

Hap Gill: So TCO tends to handle that. So [00:46:25] she’s got all the forms and she’s fantastic.

Payman Langroudi: Uh but then there we are. So, so we could, we [00:46:30] could copy and paste your practice if we wanted to. I know I’m not saying you want to, but [00:46:35] if you wanted to. Do you think it’s possible?

Hap Gill: Yeah, I think I think you could, depending on who the clinicians [00:46:40] are. And, you know, hopefully they’ll be better than me. So.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Do you think [00:46:45] you’re good at hiring?

Hap Gill: Oh my goodness. Um. I’m getting better. [00:46:50] Um, I used to do it on a kind of like a like a gut [00:46:55] feeling, and, you know, not always check the references and all that kind of thing, but I’m a lot stricter [00:47:00] now, and, you know, we had to. I’m always insisting on a trial period now. And we had [00:47:05] to, uh, let someone go a couple of months ago because she just wasn’t was [00:47:10] that front desk. And she just wasn’t just wasn’t getting what we were, what we were.

Payman Langroudi: What about dentistry? [00:47:15]

Hap Gill: Uh, dentists?

Payman Langroudi: Um, is it easy? Is it? Can you can [00:47:20] you tell quite quickly when you’re talking to, let’s say, a young dentist or a specialist that [00:47:25] they, they, they’re the right kind of person? Or have you made mistakes in that area?

Hap Gill: So [00:47:30] can we chat as an example? So jazz um, I first [00:47:35] met on Twitter of, you know, um, back in the day. That’s got to be [00:47:40] when he was a dental student. Oh, really? So he asked me a few questions, and, uh, apparently [00:47:45] he was asking lots of dentist questions, and, um, he was, [00:47:50] um, you know, he was asking lots of questions. I was the only dentist that replied [00:47:55] to him. I can’t even remember what it was. I think it was something to do with what shall I do? And I basically said the [00:48:00] same thing. I said, learn communication, you know, learn business before you develop [00:48:05] your clinical skills. So we had a bit of turn for England Twitter. And then I think [00:48:10] he popped in one summer holiday just to hang out with me as well. So I [00:48:15] knew he was a lovely guy. I knew he was a really nice guy, and he was really keen on [00:48:20] learning and doing dentistry to the best of his ability. So, uh, [00:48:25] once he qualified, he was kind of hinting at wanting to [00:48:30] work with me and what I, what I actually did with him was I encouraged him to work [00:48:35] elsewhere, uh, basically make some mistakes elsewhere.

Hap Gill: And then you come back to see me. So he actually went to [00:48:40] Singapore and had a great time, and then he came out and joined that practice. But [00:48:45] in answer to your question, I’ve never had to advertise for a role. I [00:48:50] do put posts on Facebook, but it’s always from word of mouth. Um, you know, drew [00:48:55] normally recommends someone or somebody that I know recommends [00:49:00] somebody or, you know, one of my associates recommended an endodontic, uh, that work [00:49:05] for us and so on. It’s that kind of thing. And we’re looking, uh, we were looking for an orthodontist. One [00:49:10] of our therapists recommended the orthodontist. So, you know, there’s lots of things. Sort of, um, [00:49:15] that’s the kind of the way that I’ve kind of found clinicians. [00:49:20] Um, and, you know, we are gently, sort of softly [00:49:25] looking for another associate at the moment. But, you know, you know, I will, you know, [00:49:30] I will, um, again, you know, we’re not advertising for one. [00:49:35] Uh, we’ll if I bump into someone interesting at a meeting [00:49:40] or, you know, an event or someone. I will certainly pursue that. [00:49:45]

Payman Langroudi: What about clinical errors?

Hap Gill: Clinical errors? Oh my goodness. How [00:49:50] long you got?

Payman Langroudi: Not that one. Let’s get the juicy ones.

Hap Gill: Um, [00:49:55] so I suppose that the only real kind of error [00:50:00] I’ve made really, is there was a [00:50:05] a lady. Um, this is going back probably about [00:50:10] 15 years ago, and she had, um. Org Laurentia was [00:50:15] Laurentia was really, really poor prognosis. And, um, [00:50:20] so and the funny thing is, one of these patients didn’t have a lot of money. So we [00:50:25] we had helped her out with perio treatment and she said, look, you know, you just don’t worry about, you know, paying, [00:50:30] you know, when you’ve got money, just, just you can sort it out. And then it just came to [00:50:35] a head where we needed she needed treatment. See, these lower centres were just going to be gone. [00:50:40] They were just. You can almost like, play them like piano keys. And I said to her, look, you know, we [00:50:45] can do. I mean, she needed, you know, them out. She needed full period treatment. She implants it. I [00:50:50] said, look, as it kind of like an interim. What we can do is, um. So my [00:50:55] plan is to make a Maryland, um, but to use the actual her teeth as [00:51:00] the kind of the pontic. So, Nick, nip off the ends of the teeth.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. 3 to. [00:51:05]

Hap Gill: 3. Uh, so it was actually 2 to 2. Okay. So I was gonna keep the twos [00:51:10] and then nip off the end of the of the ones. So I did that. Proud of my work. Was [00:51:15] solid for many years.

Payman Langroudi: So what do you do? You send that tooth to the technician?

Hap Gill: No, no, I [00:51:20] did an impression. Yeah. Uh, which is not easy in in in wobbly teeth. So lots of wax, [00:51:25] etc.. And then I got the plate made. So the plate, you know, the wings on the four teeth. [00:51:30] Yeah. And then I bonded them on. Oh, um, [00:51:35] you know, the usual Panavia. And then I nipped the ends off, the roots off, and then that was [00:51:40] it. Okay. And I said, you know what? When you have the money, when your parents have the money, just we’ll sort it out properly. And [00:51:45] I’ve got an email five years later complaining five years later, what [00:51:50] I’ve done was nicking those two teeth. I nicked the laterals as well [00:51:55] to notch them. So she had her dentist tried to save them and, uh, [00:52:00] ended them. But those were failing as well. And, you know, I rang up and definitely [00:52:05] put my hands up and said, look, I made a mistake. Just sort this out. And they they [00:52:10] just dealt with it. That’s the worst, uh, mistake that I can, you know, think [00:52:15] of, uh, clinically that I’ve.

Payman Langroudi: I will accept.

Hap Gill: That.

Payman Langroudi: It’s nice [00:52:20] when it’s interesting. Yeah, it’s interesting, but nicking a tooth, man, with all [00:52:25] the treatments you’ve done. Yeah. Nicking a tooth can not be your worst story.

Hap Gill: No, [00:52:30] I mean no. All the treatments I’ve done. No, I can’t think of any sort of mistakes. [00:52:35] I mean, you know, yeah, sometimes treatment doesn’t work out, but it’s not actually a human [00:52:40] error. It’s, you know, stuff happens, but this is my error.

Payman Langroudi: You haven’t made a bigger mistake than nicking [00:52:45] the tooth next door to something.

Hap Gill: No, I can’t think of it.

Payman Langroudi: I’m going to leave you to reflect [00:52:50] on that.

Hap Gill: I can’t, I can’t think of anything. I’ve not filled the wrong tooth. I’ve not taken [00:52:55] the wrong tooth out.

Payman Langroudi: No, no. But like you made a decision. You know, you said be brave. Yeah. Okay. [00:53:00] You be brave. Sometimes that goes the wrong way. Yeah. So let’s talk about that. You did something. [00:53:05] You were being brave. It didn’t work out.

Hap Gill: I just cannot think [00:53:10] of anything. Honestly, I would, you know, honestly, I.

Payman Langroudi: It’ll [00:53:15] come.

Hap Gill: It’ll come. I don’t know what I mean. I mean, the thing is, [00:53:20] I’ve, um. You know, I’ve been doing this a long time. Or maybe the patience kind of [00:53:25] just kind of. That’s true. Politely sort of disappeared and went to see another dentist.

Payman Langroudi: I think, you know, after. [00:53:30] How long do you think it takes to get to that level of not your level of mastery, but the first. [00:53:35] Level of mastery, I’d say ten years.

Hap Gill: I would agree [00:53:40] with you. Ten years. Um, and the other thing is payment. You got you got to [00:53:45] be in the same practice. You’ve got to see your patients come back. That’s really, really important.

Payman Langroudi: Think about that. [00:53:50] Tell me about treatment modalities. I mean, surely during the, um, Rosenthal days, you were [00:53:55] cutting veneers that then came back even, let’s call it 15 years later, [00:54:00] with failure and veneers, failure tends to tends to be sort of a [00:54:05] staining failure.

Hap Gill: The funny thing is I there [00:54:10] were teeth being prepped that should not have been prepped. It was ortho that they [00:54:15] really needed. Yeah. Um, and.

Payman Langroudi: Not that adults were accepting training.

Hap Gill: Textbooks. [00:54:20] They weren’t. They weren’t they weren’t accepting it. So, um, [00:54:25] yeah, we, I mean, I, I’ve done the thousands of veneers over the years and, you know, [00:54:30] there is a really steep learning curve. And yes, we had. Excuse [00:54:35] me. Um, we had, um, you know, endo flare ups, um, here [00:54:40] and there. Um, but.

Payman Langroudi: I’m interested in this thing in the same practice for a long time [00:54:45] thing, there weren’t mistakes. But what things did you learn by seeing your own patients work? [00:54:50]

Hap Gill: Oh. Come back. So it was. It was things like, [00:54:55] um, it was, it was teeth where, you know, you were [00:55:00] heavily prepping the teeth. And a few years down the road they become non vital. And then [00:55:05] at the time you think you should really have sort of effectively done the endo on this tooth. [00:55:10] Uh, there were things like sort of when you were being really heroic on heavily filled teeth. [00:55:15] Yeah. Where you should have, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Pull something.

Hap Gill: Yeah. Put a post [00:55:20] in there. Uh, on endodontics, it was mainly endodontic teeth. And [00:55:25] the teeth kind of came off in there in their cause. Um, it was mainly that [00:55:30] kind of thing. Um, and you have a patients also, um, [00:55:35] that suddenly develop caries between the teeth. Um, that was, [00:55:40] that was another one. We’ve got one at the moment where we did the veneers. Maybe around about. [00:55:45] Uh, well, actually, that was a full mouth case about ten years ago. And for [00:55:50] personal reasons, you’re not looking after himself. And now he’s got caries between each tooth, and he’s [00:55:55] got perio issues, things like that. But I think I must have done an okay job [00:56:00] if most of the veneers are still there. Most of the crowns are still there. Yeah. [00:56:05] Or as I said, you know, maybe it’s that they’ve just kind of moved and and not, not come [00:56:10] back. But the thing is, you know, you’re you’re going to do stuff that doesn’t work. You know, [00:56:15] implants don’t always work, you know? And, uh, you know, being [00:56:20] at the same practice, I think one of the things that [00:56:25] you have.

Hap Gill: I’m not sure whether you can relate to this, but it’s kind of there’s [00:56:30] this like this family trust, this bond that you have with patients. Of course. Um, [00:56:35] and then, you know, if you do screw up, the patients are, um, [00:56:40] I’m not saying they’re going to forgive you, but, you know, one of the things that you should do is the right [00:56:45] thing. You know, and you know, whether it’s a year under the guarantee or whether it’s five [00:56:50] years later, you would know what the right thing to do is for your patient. For sure. Um, you know, we’ve had [00:56:55] associates left, um, and their work hasn’t failed, and [00:57:00] it’s sort of 3 or 5 years down the rent. It’s on me. I mean, I’m not going to chase the associate for it. I’m just [00:57:05] going to redo it, and that’s that’s absolutely fine. That’s just the way that I am. Mhm. Um, [00:57:10] you know, I think one of the beauties of being in the same place for [00:57:15] generations is, is that trust and that relationship you have. Uh.

Payman Langroudi: We [00:57:20] can’t let you go without talking about occlusion. You know, I, I’d like a [00:57:25] couple of sort of aha moments, you know, one, 1 or 2, your [00:57:30] own aha moments and occlusion. And 1 or 2 that, you know, you’ve talked to so many dentists [00:57:35] about occlusion things that most dentists didn’t know, or things that sort of tweak someone’s [00:57:40] understanding of occlusion because it’s such a giant subject. And it’s a very unfair question. [00:57:45] Yeah, it’s a giant subject, but at the same time, it isn’t [00:57:50] rocket science, right?

Hap Gill: Yeah. I think one of the things that I, um, [00:57:55] the aha moment was when I really understood anterior guidance. [00:58:00] Um, not necessarily canine or group or whatever. Just make sure that it’s smooth. [00:58:05] And, you know, I’ll give you an example. We talked about bonding earlier. You know, the [00:58:10] sort of the the the upper right one distal angle you put a composite on, it [00:58:15] just keeps on chipping. Yeah. It just keeps on chipping. You don’t know what the hell’s going on. And then, um, [00:58:20] of course you go to pinky. You think you can cure cancer when you come back? One of the things that you do [00:58:25] learn is about, um, anterior guidance, which I think is more important [00:58:30] than than basically getting all the teeth to touch the teeth. Touch is important, of course. [00:58:35] Um, but one of the, one of the, um, things [00:58:40] about smooth interior guidance and these composites and these crowns that were chipping [00:58:45] was basically they were the patient was guiding and then getting beyond [00:58:50] the canine point. And there was a sudden thump like that. It was a crossover [00:58:55] point. So one of the things that I was not checking was what happens beyond which, which teeth do they [00:59:00] land on once they go beyond that? So you’re doing it? I’m trying it.

Payman Langroudi: You’re doing it.

Hap Gill: So. [00:59:05] And then and then of course I’m looking. So once I got this after [00:59:10] pain, um, pancreatitis. Radar, you know that something’s switched on. So I’m looking. [00:59:15] And then, of course, you know, these composites and these crowns are chipping you. [00:59:20] The patients are struggling to to to to to get how [00:59:25] that canine and when they get when they go across that it’s just suddenly going on the other side. So if you imagine [00:59:30] that’s a canine. Yeah. It’s struggling this steep guidance and then it gets the other side and it’s doing [00:59:35] that.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of force.

Hap Gill: Yeah. And then and then it all bashes on the front there. Okay. So it’s [00:59:40] I think anterior guidance, um, the pitch and the bevel of the [00:59:45] incisors, making sure that everything’s all smooth. I taught jazz that it was blown away, so. [00:59:50] Oh, my God, my composites are going to work now. Um, so again, you know, just looking at the [00:59:55] sort of the, the sort of, uh, microscopic, the micro anatomy of the teeth [01:00:00] in creating smooth sort of, um, um, you know, as [01:00:05] opposed to a square in size or ledger. It’s just sort of just smoothing those ends off so you can kind of [01:00:10] get that smooth sort of guidance across. So hopefully that makes sense to you.

[BOTH]: Yeah. [01:00:15] Yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know I love I love you know the idea that you know that form follows function [01:00:20] sort of you know, the reason why the smile.

[BOTH]: Is the smile.

Payman Langroudi: Is.

[BOTH]: Really.

Hap Gill: Good. [01:00:25]

[BOTH]: Looking to.

Hap Gill: Uh, work well as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, unless, of [01:00:30] course, it’s the common mistake of where we were talking about composite bonding. Yeah. Someone’s got a few chipped [01:00:35] teeth, and the dentist just fixes those.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Hap Gill: And [01:00:40] why are they chipping?

[BOTH]: Why are they chipping?

Payman Langroudi: Chipping and.

[BOTH]: Much.

Payman Langroudi: Much weaker than [01:00:45] tooth.

[BOTH]: Raising.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it is going to break.

Hap Gill: Yeah. Composite bonding is. [01:00:50] I mean, composite resin restorations. Uh, I know it’s been branded as a composite bonding now, but it’s [01:00:55] a wonderful material. But, you know, you can’t just go slapping [01:01:00] this stuff on willy nilly. Um, as I’m sure you’ve seen on.

[BOTH]: Yeah. [01:01:05]

Hap Gill: On your feet.

Payman Langroudi: What about other things in occlusion that that dentists kind of [01:01:10] that when you talk to a dental, when you explain it to a dentist, it kind of switches their [01:01:15] mind and understanding.

Hap Gill: I think these are real, simple principles. One [01:01:20] is smooth interior guidance. The other thing is getting properties properly [01:01:25] seated condyles in the central relation position. And classically you [01:01:30] may have one tip is check for interferences. Okay, so [01:01:35] get the patient into an arc of closure and which tooth is [01:01:40] which tooth hitting first okay. Especially important when you’re prepping [01:01:45] that tooth because if you’ve got rid of that interference the condyles are going to see. [01:01:50] So all the teeth are going to be touching more evenly. And guess what? Your crown [01:01:55] is going to be high when you come to fit it because you’ve lost that clearance and you always blame that. [01:02:00]

Payman Langroudi: So that’s the seven generally right?

Hap Gill: Seven. Yeah. Premolars as well. [01:02:05]

Payman Langroudi: He really really oh really.

Hap Gill: It happens in.

[BOTH]: I remember.

Hap Gill: As well. In sevens [01:02:10] you can get um horizontal slide in premolars. It’s kind of more of sort [01:02:15] of a lateral. Yeah. Lateral side really. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I had.

Hap Gill: No idea. And then, you know, how many, [01:02:20] um. You know any dentists that are listening to this? You know, premolars, the [01:02:25] virgin upper, uh, first premolar, vertical fracture. You [01:02:30] know, a lot of times you will see a wear facet on it. You [01:02:35] know, it’s it’s, you know, and that could be contributing. So it’s really anterior guidance [01:02:40] and just check for first point of contact if there’s any, you know, you know new patient comes in recall [01:02:45] exam. Just a little bit of sort of you know checking um a couple of things [01:02:50] like that. And then, you know, the, um, you know, and [01:02:55] again, they taught us, you know, in panky. Just start introducing a few of these concepts [01:03:00] to your patients. Otherwise, you know, your patient. What the hell is he up to? Just do a little bit, you know, at [01:03:05] a time, and then you. And then it’s part of your system, part of your examination.

Payman Langroudi: And do [01:03:10] you follow the panky ideas regarding sort of [01:03:15] breaking it to a patient that they might you might have to do full mouth dentistry compared.

Hap Gill: To [01:03:20] I mean, one tooth that is kind of like panky. Um, it’s [01:03:25] not all about full mouth, you know. It’s not. It’s not a [01:03:30] cult. Uh, you know, a lot of people think.

Payman Langroudi: People love it, man. I think that’s that’s a great [01:03:35] thing, right? Yeah. And the fact that they talk about personal development.

Hap Gill: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the thing is, [01:03:40] I mean, you’re starting lectures at eight. Sorry. 745. Yeah. And [01:03:45] then your break for lunch, you’ve probably finished about six, a couple of hours off, and then you’re in the labs [01:03:50] grinding on teeth or splints or you’re in sort of group discussions and you’re completely [01:03:55] immersed in it. Um, and one of the things they do, you know, um, stress [01:04:00] is, as we were talking about earlier on, just talk to your patient like you [01:04:05] would do a family member. Give them the opportunity. Tell them that there’s [01:04:10] a whole bunch of stuff going on in your mouth. You’re not just doing your BP and then charting. Which amalgams. [01:04:15]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, would you say, look, if a dentist isn’t aware of all these things? Yeah, he might be [01:04:20] guilty of supervised neglect of that breakdown, that collapse of that bite. But would [01:04:25] you say the on the other side, there is overtreatment in some cases, like the the US way [01:04:30] of looking at all this is a bit different to the European way. Do you think that’s a thing or. No. [01:04:35]

Hap Gill: I don’t think I mean not not in the people, not certainly with the colleagues that [01:04:40] I hang out with. No.

Payman Langroudi: But in the US they tend to prep way earlier don’t they. [01:04:45] And there’s this almost idea of prep it while you can, while there’s still enough tooth there.

Hap Gill: Oh [01:04:50] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And over here we kind of wait for things to break before we prep them and so on. Yeah. So [01:04:55] that can that way of thinking can.

Hap Gill: Lead you into, I think is I do know [01:05:00] what you’re saying. You know, you’ve got there’s a, there’s a I don’t know, let’s just say an upper for the, you know, a [01:05:05] cusp has pinged off, um, and what you want to do, you want to just replace that crown. You [01:05:10] want to do customer coverage on that tooth or is it other stuff going on. But you’ve got to have that knowledge. You’ve [01:05:15] got to have that radar switched on that, you know, there could be other [01:05:20] things that are happening. Um, maybe it’s insurance based. While [01:05:25] why they have more of the sort of extensive dentistry done over there, maybe [01:05:30] it’s a legacy of the NHS and people still have that mindset over here. But the thing is, if you’ve got [01:05:35] that knowledge, it could be, you know, just doing that crown could be neglect. [01:05:40] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You know, they may need more work. They’ll they [01:05:45] may say no to you. They may say no. You know, no to your treatment plan. But at least you’ve got you’ve [01:05:50] had that conversation. You’ve given the opportunity that there’s there’s other stuff going on. And if [01:05:55] we just treat this you’re only going to be back. I mean, all my sort of rehabilitative. [01:06:00] Well, actually, most of it is done on my patients. I planted a seed on at [01:06:05] some point in the past. And then, you know, it’s kind of they’ll say happy now is the time. [01:06:10] You know, the kids have finished uni or, you know, they paid off their mortgage [01:06:15] or whatever. Um, you know, it’s that you’ve got to have that conversation. [01:06:20] If you can see it, you’ve got to tell the patient.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And [01:06:25] so when you think of your biggest case, you’ve done well. What comes to mind? What [01:06:30] kind of case is that for mouth rehab.

Hap Gill: Um, so I would say. I [01:06:35] would say it’s probably my [01:06:40] patient told me he doesn’t mind me sharing the story. Um, [01:06:45] so. He was involved in an RTA. [01:06:50] So he’s one of these, uh, triathlete type, uh, [01:06:55] people. He’s got ten grand. Bike head down is bombing it around sort of the corner [01:07:00] in, um, Petersham, which is the next town to, uh, Richmond. [01:07:05] And a van pulled out in front of him, and he went headfirst Us and [01:07:10] he had all sorts of injuries. He’d lost teeth [01:07:15] as lying on the road. He broke his jaw in a few places. Um, [01:07:20] broken a rib. It’s severed his penis as well. But the [01:07:25] only thing he. When he tells the story, the only thing you think of was missing was laying in bed for a week. And the only thing [01:07:30] I could think of was his missing teeth. So, um, you know, we always [01:07:35] start at the beginning examination. What’s the starting point? I know what it’s going to end look like at the end, [01:07:40] but this is a starting position. So how are we going to get these teeth fitting together? So [01:07:45] I mean, the surgeon did a in a great job putting the teeth back together. But there [01:07:50] was bits of jawbone missing. So he had open bites and symmetry. So [01:07:55] um the starting point and we know what the end point is. How [01:08:00] are we going to work it out?

Payman Langroudi: How long did it take?

Hap Gill: It took me about 3 or [01:08:05] 4 years to do so. We did everything, you know, we did trial equilibration, so we did. Um, [01:08:10] I did three sets of mounted models. So one was purely [01:08:15] if we removed his wisdom teeth, well, his teeth meet together. One was purely additive. [01:08:20] Um, and there was a sort of like, a bit of both. We [01:08:25] we ended up doing, uh, we didn’t want ortho author would have benefit, but he didn’t [01:08:30] ortho. So it ended up being purely additive. And then where are we going to get the bone from? So, [01:08:35] uh, what I found really interesting for, um, Tom was we actually, [01:08:40] I worked with a maxillofacial surgeon, went into the operating theatre in, uh, [01:08:45] Kingston. So, you know, he was taking bits of iliac crest out, putting [01:08:50] it into his, um, onto his jaw. And, you know, a [01:08:55] few months later, I put the implants in, and then we restored him. But, you know, he was in long [01:09:00] term temporaries. Thumbs up for the smile and the occlusion. Um, and then [01:09:05] I think we must have done that. Just [01:09:10] before I opened the practice in 2008 and we’re [01:09:15] cemented his lower bridge, we were cementing them on in those days a couple of times, but [01:09:20] that’s the only maintenance he’s required in all that time. Um, so, you know, that’s [01:09:25] probably the biggest case, um, most complex one [01:09:30] that, you know, I, I’ve done. But, you know, we’ve got like, you know, just as you know, it’s just as rewarding [01:09:35] doing, um, I tell another story.

Hap Gill: A [01:09:40] patient of mine came in with her mum about [01:09:45] 20 years ago, and I never forget what the the [01:09:50] mum said to me. Not the not the daughter. So the mum and daughter, as the mum said can [01:09:55] you help us not can you help her. Is can you help us. Because the girl was getting bullied [01:10:00] and so when she had missing lateral, the other one was lateral, she had a diastema, [01:10:05] so I wasn’t doing that much also. So that was referred to [01:10:10] an orthodontist who put the teeth where they’re supposed to be. And now [01:10:15] the. And then I did some veneers and a, uh, [01:10:20] zirconia resin bonding bridge back in the day. Probably on the first one in the universe. I [01:10:25] know, I know, but the thing is, again, being brave, you know, I thought, you know, let me just do it. And it’s. And and [01:10:30] again, it’s still there. Yeah. Um, and then now. You [01:10:35] know, from being this timid thing, she is, you know, she bounces [01:10:40] into the practice with a lot of confidence and she’s actually become a counsellor for sort of goes [01:10:45] around schools and bullying and sort of drugs and all that kind of thing. So I found [01:10:50] I, you know, we didn’t do a lot physically to her teeth, but that made a huge difference. So I find [01:10:55] this really rewarding as well as a complete sort of full mouth.

Payman Langroudi: The one that you had the most sort of [01:11:00] effect on? Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. What comes to mind if I say what was the best lecture you’ve ever been to? [01:11:05]

Hap Gill: Oh my goodness. I know you asked me this an hour ago, and I was thinking the best lecture [01:11:10] I’ve ever been on. The best couple of days. Um, [01:11:15] the lecture, the course is Frank Speer, um, [01:11:20] at the Pankey Institute. So it wasn’t Pankey, but he basically did [01:11:25] his course at, uh, at the pancreas. He spent two days on his mistakes.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:11:30] nice.

Hap Gill: So. And this is, like, this incredible [01:11:35] titan of dentistry. Um. And he spent two years, [01:11:40] uh, two days on his mistakes. And I probably learned more on that. And [01:11:45] it was inspirational. And he kept saying, be brave, be brave. And one of the mistakes [01:11:50] was on a dentist, actually, that he did. And again, [01:11:55] he did it. It was it was sort of T-2. He was being overambitious of [01:12:00] where he should have done more build ups and that kind of thing. Uh, or he missed something [01:12:05] during the occlusal exam. Um, but that is by far and away the [01:12:10] best. Um, a couple of days I spent sort of listening to anyone. [01:12:15]

Payman Langroudi: You’ve been on so many courses, but is there one that you haven’t been [01:12:20] on yet and you’re desperate to.

Hap Gill: Oh, [01:12:25] you know, this this probably sounds a little bit. Sort of. I do want to learn about Tad’s. [01:12:30] You know, I just want to up my game regarding, um, Invisalign. I [01:12:35] mean, I’ve been doing Invisalign since the early days, 2004, and it’s a different animal [01:12:40] to. Yeah, 20 years ago. Yeah, yeah. And I love doing it. I still work with the orthodontist. [01:12:45] Um, but, you know, I love ortho. Um, I love that. Um, the banter [01:12:50] I have with that sort of demographic. 20s and 30s. Um, maybe [01:12:55] mentally on that age. Um, so I think one of the things, I mean, it’s just simple. I want to learn [01:13:00] tabs with Invisalign.

Payman Langroudi: The brand?

Hap Gill: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Hap Gill: You [01:13:05] know, it’s it’s funny, there’s, um, you [01:13:10] know, there’s the plastic. There’s the plastic matter. I think it does [01:13:15] a little bit. Um, you know, I love their software, and they’ve been around for many, many years. Of course, the [01:13:20] most important thing is the clinician that is planning and is monitoring, [01:13:25] uh, the treatment. But I’m still very much with, uh, Invisalign. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Good. [01:13:30] And if I say what’s your favourite dental resource?

Hap Gill: My [01:13:35] favourite dental resource.

Payman Langroudi: Book, podcast. Whatever someone [01:13:40] you.

Hap Gill: Follow is probably Drew Shah’s brain. [01:13:45] Drew. Yeah. Drew’s brain. Uh, I love the community [01:13:50] that he has built. Um, you know, we’ve got a team day, [01:13:55] uh, coming up, and I was kind of scratching my head with a few exercises to do and [01:14:00] I messaged him. And on a Sunday he got back to me with a whole kind of essay of, you know, sort of [01:14:05] exercises.

Payman Langroudi: Dude reads a.

Hap Gill: Lot. Oh my goodness. And he and he, you know, pings over a lot [01:14:10] of books, you know, recommendations to me. But I mean, he is that is a big [01:14:15] resource for me. I don’t go to that many courses. I never [01:14:20] ever were talking about the the Dental show earlier on. I try and avoid those places at all costs. I [01:14:25] kind of, I rather just hang out with the with the family on my weekends.

Payman Langroudi: But you [01:14:30] still, you’re very up with technology. Yeah, right. So I guess Dental shows are kind of one [01:14:35] place where you can see technology. Yeah, yeah. Did you manage to stay up with technology [01:14:40] because you were a geek?

Hap Gill: I think there’s definitely a geeky, um, side [01:14:45] of me.

Payman Langroudi: Um, because I had Basil Mizrahi, for instance. Right. I had Basil [01:14:50] Mizrahi. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And he said, look, I, I can deliver. [01:14:55] Yeah, yeah, I know what I can deliver. Yeah. And, um. Even though it hurt him to [01:15:00] say he’s now becoming a dinosaur. Yeah. He didn’t want to digitise. Yeah, he’s got he’s [01:15:05] got your guitar in the practice. You do? Yeah. Takes care of that sort of thing. But he didn’t want [01:15:10] him. That’s almost right. Yeah. Yeah. So are you always looking for improvements and [01:15:15] particularly tech improvements?

Hap Gill: The thing is, you always kind of, you know, online Facebook, uh, various [01:15:20] groups. Um, there’s there’s always kind of everyone’s kind of looking at, you know, [01:15:25] everyone’s kind of looking at the new stuff and sort of posting information. So there’s [01:15:30] a little bit of a cynic in me. Okay. Um, but I do. And [01:15:35] we’ve got three ideas of the practice, you know, and we use it on in exams, hygiene [01:15:40] as well as sort of, you know, restorative and.

Payman Langroudi: The new internal.

Hap Gill: Cameras. Yeah. It’s, you [01:15:45] know, and and the, I mean, the face, um, [01:15:50] simulation software is incredible these days as well. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I.

Hap Gill: Ii. [01:15:55] Tarot? Oh, really? Yeah. I mean, about a year ago, I kind of have to have to sort of look at it first [01:16:00] before I kind of flip the screen around to the patient because it’s like, oh, that’s nanny McPhee. That [01:16:05] ain’t my patient. So, you know, but it’s it’s really good. Um, at the moment. And that’s [01:16:10] all, you know. That’s all part of their system. But I’m always going to try [01:16:15] and, uh, keep up to date.

Payman Langroudi: You’re kind of coming [01:16:20] to the end of our time. Unfortunately, I could talk for so much longer with you. Um, but let’s [01:16:25] start with the fantasy dinner party. Three guests. [01:16:30]

Hap Gill: Three guests.

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive.

Hap Gill: So, um, [01:16:35] first was Larry David.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Hap Gill: Larry. David. I’m sure you’ve seen kerb.

Payman Langroudi: I love.

Hap Gill: It. [01:16:40] Um, I never really, really, really got into Seinfeld, but, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Me either. Kerb.

Hap Gill: Kerb. Oh [01:16:45] my.

Payman Langroudi: Goodness.

Hap Gill: This guy has no filter. And then, you know, the thing [01:16:50] is, all of the characters in the show play themselves. Yeah. And this is I mean, the [01:16:55] thing is, you know, um, that they’re filtering the headgear. That isn’t the right [01:17:00] thing to say. That is the right thing to do. He just does it.

Payman Langroudi: The Palestinian chicken shop.

Hap Gill: Yeah. The palace [01:17:05] is a chicken shop. And, I mean, there are so many. I mean, there are so many things, you know, in it. And [01:17:10] he takes the Mickey out, the Jewish as well. He hires a crappy, uh, Jewish [01:17:15] lawyer because he’s he’s a Jew. And, you know, it’s just it’s just so funny. [01:17:20] So I think he’ll be, you know, uh, fun company. Uh, second one [01:17:25] is, um, I had to think about this. So that [01:17:30] one is my dad’s uncle. Uh, he died. I think it was about 100 years old. [01:17:35] Um, very, very interesting man. The thing about him, I want him [01:17:40] there because he always used to tell amazing stories. He took a boat from. [01:17:45] I mean, he’s a village boy. And it took about. Landed in New York in 1928. [01:17:50]

Payman Langroudi: I boat from India?

Hap Gill: Yeah. From India. Took about six months in 1928. And he used to [01:17:55] tell us stories about the Wall Street crash. And, um, in those days, you know, there was segregation [01:18:00] and the blacks and the and the Asians and the Browns, you know, they weren’t getting jobs [01:18:05] unless, like servants, that kind of thing. But, um, his first job. Yeah. [01:18:10] The Henry Ford gave me his first job. So and there’s lots of stories about dinner [01:18:15] parties with Henry and that kind of thing. And there’s there’s a, um, a photo [01:18:20] of, um, Henry and lots of black and brown faces [01:18:25] around him. And Henry sort of had laid out this sort of, um, this kind of like [01:18:30] everyone was in tuxedos. And I’m sure this is the first time all of those black and brown faces [01:18:35] had ever worn a tuxedo in their life. And, and, you know, um, ah, [01:18:40] uh, my dad’s mama, G, as we used to call him, to tell lots of wonderful, um, [01:18:45] stories regarding that he used to after the Wall Street crash, you know, Indian [01:18:50] boy reading about people throwing themselves off these buildings. He was thinking, what’s what’s going [01:18:55] on? What’s going on? So he actually started investing in shares. Well, in the 30s, and I remember [01:19:00] when he used to come over in the summer holidays from the US. Um, he’ll be sitting there. [01:19:05] Um, you know, just looking at his, you see, you couldn’t read, [01:19:10] um, couldn’t hear or see very well. But he was, uh, actually, when we used to go there in the [01:19:15] summer, he had a magnifying glass. He was scanning the paper at all the share prices. So he [01:19:20] was. I mean, I could listen to him for for hours.

Payman Langroudi: Did he pass [01:19:25] away when you were a kid?

Hap Gill: Um, I was probably in my 20s. We [01:19:30] had. We had a surprise party when he was 19, and he nearly killed over when he walked into the pool.

Payman Langroudi: And. [01:19:35]

Hap Gill: He thought, oh, my God, not now, not now. And I think the final, the final guest, um. [01:19:40] I where we used to live in Richmond, where [01:19:45] we parked my car. Ah, ah, the fence. They’re backed onto [01:19:50] this guy’s, uh, garden. Um, and it’s funny because, [01:19:55] um, every time we heard the lawn mower, we’d all kind of, you know, the boys would get excited, and we were sort [01:20:00] of run to sort of peer over the garden fence. But it was never there. It was David Attenborough. [01:20:05]

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Hap Gill: So. And, you know, the funny thing is, live [01:20:10] right next door to us. I never met him.

Payman Langroudi: Well.

Hap Gill: I used to [01:20:15] see him kind of pop in and out of the Jeep or getting into his car. I never met him, but his brother, who used to live. [01:20:20] Uh, Richard, who used to live around the corner from the practice. I’ve spoken to him twice. He used [01:20:25] to, you know, walk up and down the river with a river with his cane. So I [01:20:30] saw more of his brother. Met him a couple of times compared to, um, [01:20:35] David. But the thing about David, I know it’s kind of you’ve kind of grown [01:20:40] up with that voice and that kind of. I mean, he could be. He could have a dung beetle sort [01:20:45] of crawling on him.

Payman Langroudi: He could be prime minister.

Hap Gill: Yeah. Yeah. Like, I mean, the thing.

Payman Langroudi: Is universally.

Hap Gill: Loved and [01:20:50] then universally loved. Yeah. It transcends generations. My boys, you [01:20:55] know, when they hear his voice, they just like we were watching a blue planet again yesterday. And you were just like. They were just [01:21:00] sort of sitting. He looked up from his YouTube and we were watching it. And the thing is, you know, he’s [01:21:05] he’s in his 90s. He’s seen so many changes and, you know, and it will be nice [01:21:10] to listen to him. But you know what I would really like to do with David at [01:21:15] a dinner party is give him a little bit of tequila and get him getting really talking. And, [01:21:20] um, I can’t say, you know, and then, um, I would have my wife there, of course, [01:21:25] as well for, um.

Payman Langroudi: And there’s only three.

Hap Gill: Yes. Yeah. Well, on this [01:21:30] occasion.

Payman Langroudi: Someone’s gonna do.

Hap Gill: Someone’s gonna do the cooking. You know. So. No. No, [01:21:35] seriously. We love cooking. So it’s, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, we too. We see. And [01:21:40] the final questions around. It’s a deathbed question on your deathbed. [01:21:45] But surrounded by your loved ones. Three pieces of advice.

Hap Gill: Three [01:21:50] pieces of advice. I think one of the things [01:21:55] you know. Any sort of. Sane [01:22:00] and loving parent, you kind of almost don’t want to be without your kids. [01:22:05] But one of the things that you need to do is to actually get them [01:22:10] ready for the big bad world, get them actually used to not being, you know, in your [01:22:15] in your home anymore. So one of the bits of advice that I would definitely [01:22:20] give them is always do [01:22:25] the best job that you can, the best whatever you want to, whatever task you want to do, do the best [01:22:30] that you can, whether you’re going to you’re sweeping the driveway or anything professional. So, you [01:22:35] know, do things to the best of your ability. The other thing is really, um, [01:22:40] don’t take advice from people [01:22:45] that have a negative energy that don’t actually know what they’re talking about. So [01:22:50] someone giving business advice has never had a business. That’s one of the things as well. And people do have a mindset [01:22:55] about money, and money is bad. And I’ve had lots of sort of really terrible advice [01:23:00] regarding that over the years. So one of the things is, um, you know, [01:23:05] keep away from people with negative energy, you know, surround yourself with people that [01:23:10] are, um, your peers or someone that you kind of aspire [01:23:15] to. Um, I think those are, um, [01:23:20] the main things really, you know, be be kind, be honest, try [01:23:25] and do you know the best that you can. I mean, our practice ethos, um, and we [01:23:30] sort of genuinely, genuinely believe it. And it’s part of our induction is, you know, um, [01:23:35] take care of the patient, you know, uh, take care of your [01:23:40] colleagues, take care of the community, See, but never, ever forget to take care of yourself as well. [01:23:45] So again, that’s kind of all encompassing, kind of, you know. Uh, my advice [01:23:50] I would give, uh, on my deathbed, do your best. Take a good, good advice. [01:23:55]

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive pleasure, man.

[VOICE]: This is [01:24:00] Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with [01:24:05] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:24:10] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:24:15] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a [01:24:20] huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and [01:24:25] what our guests had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

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