Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by enlightened. Recently, one of the groups did a survey to understand [00:00:05] what is the most profitable thing that they can do in their dental chair. And listen came in as a second most profitable [00:00:10] thing, coming in at £900 per hour. So if your dental chair is busy, [00:00:15] it should be busy doing things like enlighten. Come and join us on Enlighten Online Training to [00:00:20] fully understand how to do the process, how to talk to patients about it. Deliver brilliant results [00:00:25] every time. Enlighten online training.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [00:00:40] in dentistry. Your hosts [00:00:45] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great [00:00:50] pleasure to welcome Shamika onto the podcast. Shamika is a [00:00:55] long time friend. We were talking about it maybe 17 or 18 years ago. We met. You you’re already a practice [00:01:00] owner there and always, always looking for excellence in practice. But for me, someone who [00:01:05] on the dental circuit is kind of a fun loving criminal. No, I wouldn’t [00:01:10] say criminal. Not criminal. No, it’s not.

Shameek Popat: A bad description.

Payman Langroudi: No, no. No joking. I’m [00:01:15] joking. No fun loving dude. You know, like you’re looking to turn [00:01:20] the experience of dentistry into more of a fun experience. And that definitely resonates [00:01:25] with me of late. You sold your practice and now products. [00:01:30] So tooth Angel, which is a eco friendly luxury [00:01:35] oral care brand. Luxury? Would you say premium?

Shameek Popat: Definitely luxury. Premium for sure. [00:01:40]

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know. We were talking about this. You know, enlightened used to be premium. It’s turned into luxuries and prices [00:01:45] of, um, luxury luxury oral care brand. And just [00:01:50] lately, disruptive smile smiles, which [00:01:55] is more education? We don’t know. Really. You’re going to tell me more about it?

Shameek Popat: Definitely. Definitely. Listen, [00:02:00] first of all, thank you so much for having me. It’s been a long time coming.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Thank you so [00:02:05] much for turning up finally. Right.

Shameek Popat: Look, I always told you that I wanted to have [00:02:10] things to talk about.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve always got things.

Shameek Popat: To talk [00:02:15] about, things to talk about. It was really funny, actually. Um, we’re totally going to go off topic now straight away. I [00:02:20] just mean to Tuscany and somehow, um, in the car journey on [00:02:25] the way back, obviously we’re talking I had the family with me and stuff, and I don’t I don’t know how [00:02:30] the conversation started, but we were talking about if you had to [00:02:35] lose one of your senses between speech, hearing or sight, [00:02:40] which one would you be willing to give up? And you have to choose one. [00:02:45] And it was a really fascinating conversation because all of us, for [00:02:50] us, sight was really important. You know, the world is a beautiful place and you want [00:02:55] to be able to see what’s going on.

Payman Langroudi: Do you mean completely give up? Like you’re blind [00:03:00] or completely deaf? Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting.

Shameek Popat: So it was really [00:03:05] interesting. And actually, majority of the car went deaf and I said [00:03:10] speech actually, because I want to see and I want to hear and the rest of the family saying [00:03:15] that there’s no way you’ll be able to cope with that. You have always something to say. [00:03:20] Yeah. You always want to speak. Yeah. You always want to have an opinion. Yeah. So that was [00:03:25] quite fascinating to see what they thought and what I think. Yeah. [00:03:30] Actually, I don’t know if you actually have heard of Charles Bukowski. [00:03:35] He’s a warrior poet.

Payman Langroudi: He’s a warrior poet, [00:03:40] poet.

Shameek Popat: And he said, can you remember who you were [00:03:45] before the world told you what you should be?

Payman Langroudi: As [00:03:50] in those childhood hopes and dreams?

Shameek Popat: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s keeping the keeping [00:03:55] that alive, which I feel like you do. Yeah, keeping that alive is a talent [00:04:00] in itself. Because the world has a way of squeezing that stuff out of you. [00:04:05] No.

Shameek Popat: Absolutely. But you, I mean, surely.

Shameek Popat: Payman you yourself as well. You’re probably a totally [00:04:10] different person as a family man. Yeah. And as the CEO of enlightened and [00:04:15] how you portray yourself with enlighten, surely that must be two different things, right?

Payman Langroudi: Although I don’t [00:04:20] I’m not the CEO of Sanchez. Sanchez.

Shameek Popat: That’s right. Right. As you know, part of enlighten. [00:04:25] Yeah. One of the main guys I’d lighten and.

Payman Langroudi: All the different [00:04:30] roles in life, right? Because, I mean, we were discussing this yesterday with the team, right? That [00:04:35] are they can they put the same content on Instagram as they put on TikTok? And [00:04:40] I’m saying absolutely not. Because what would be the point if there be two different. [00:04:45] There are times where I want to be on TikTok that other times I want to be on Instagram and I’m a different [00:04:50] it’s a different room altogether. But you’re right. In an interview for [00:04:55] a job, you’re this one person in the aether on a table. This other person. There’s [00:05:00] many facets of of your your life. Um, which one are [00:05:05] you most comfortable in?

Shameek Popat: You know what? My own skin. My own skin has always been fun [00:05:10] loving, you know, trying to get the joy out of life. I’ve always been a half glass full person. [00:05:15] Um, and, you know, that was a conversation that I also had with the kids [00:05:20] and stuff and everything. And I’ve always, like always said to people fit into the room [00:05:25] you put in. So I’ve always said that I’ll, you know, I can go to a festival, [00:05:30] sleep in a tent, go to the horrible lose there and [00:05:35] survive, or.

Payman Langroudi: You know, with Prince Albert of Monaco.

Shameek Popat: Or. Yes, put me in [00:05:40] a penguin suit, put me in a high end dinner and stuff and be able to know what forks, how [00:05:45] to eat, how to drink, how to taste wine. You got to you got to [00:05:50] learn it all And find out what resonates with you, what [00:05:55] you feel the most comfortable with. And that’s what you will end up doing the most of. But [00:06:00] be there to experience it all. Do not, do not just [00:06:05] something. Oh, that’s not for me. Put yourself out for us. Put your passion. Infuse your passion [00:06:10] into everything that you do.

Payman Langroudi: You know, dude, because I recognise myself in you. I [00:06:15] want to ask you whether you’re struggling with the same thing as I’m struggling with [00:06:20] on with respect to what you just said, insomuch as I had a long [00:06:25] 45 minute conversation with ChatGPT about this before it told me my my premium [00:06:30] time is up. Yeah, it was, it was being wonderful and then suddenly became all dumb and agreed with everything [00:06:35] I said. But this question I asked, the question that that I’m having trouble or [00:06:40] had have had trouble in my life differentiating between pleasure and [00:06:45] fun and joy and happiness and contentment, You [00:06:50] know. And one of those five is six is totally different to the others. Contentment. [00:06:55] Yeah, it’s totally different to the others. Yeah, but I’ve had trouble separating those [00:07:00] in my life.

Shameek Popat: Is that but that’s probably [00:07:05] a personal thing because they can all interact. Right. One can lead to another. [00:07:10]

Payman Langroudi: That’s what you said as well.

Shameek Popat: Oh, there you are. [00:07:15]

Payman Langroudi: Probably I started off by saying it’s very common, very common problem.

Shameek Popat: I can definitely [00:07:20] see that.

Payman Langroudi: But the contentment piece, do you see it as. Do you see it in opposition [00:07:25] to pleasure? Enjoy the pleasure particularly. Yeah, that’s that’s the question. I really struggle [00:07:30] with you because you think they’re all in the same ballpark. Yeah, but I see those two in total [00:07:35] tension.

Shameek Popat: Okay. So it begs the question, what is contentment to you? So [00:07:40] that’s the question you need to ask yourself.

Payman Langroudi: Correct.

Shameek Popat: And then you find the answer. What [00:07:45] is contentment to.

Payman Langroudi: You not wanting Doing something right in a way. Yeah. Being [00:07:50] happy with what you have. Whereas pleasure to.

Shameek Popat: So actually something I’m reading [00:07:55] at the moment as well and stuff and I think as dentists and the [00:08:00] way we are, we aim for perfection and I know I do. All right. [00:08:05] It always there’s a word in Gujarati that’s called [00:08:10] jalsa which means it will do. And I’ve always hated that word. You [00:08:15] know, when someone says it’ll do a good enough. And it really irritates me when [00:08:20] someone says that and stuff and it.

Payman Langroudi: Says I’m just like that. So I’ve learned that from saying, man, [00:08:25] I, I was that cat. I was that if it came to a product, a design, [00:08:30] a communication, a higher, a fire good enough was where [00:08:35] I was at. And science used to just you could see him just shiver. He [00:08:40] wants the best. Yeah. And positioning wise. Right. You know, you’re positioning this product [00:08:45] as luxury if you’re your positioning at the top end good enough isn’t even part of the conversation. [00:08:50]

Shameek Popat: No, no it’s not. But what this told me, actually. [00:08:55] And then sometimes because you beat yourself about it, right? And it really creates a lot of strife and hard work [00:09:00] and sleepless nights and stuff and everything. But what what this was saying and, you [00:09:05] know, something that has a message that we should all take, um, is there is beauty in [00:09:10] imperfection. Yeah. And the story was, um, it was a really [00:09:15] good story. So hang on. Let me let me let me recall it. It was a young Japanese [00:09:20] warrior who wanted to learn the tea making ceremony. And, you know, the tea making ceremony. Japanese tea making [00:09:25] ceremony is perfection itself, right? Everything has to be really, really perfect. So [00:09:30] the teacher said, before I teach you, I want you to clean that garden. Clean [00:09:35] the garden. So it’s beautiful. So he spends ages making it absolutely [00:09:40] perfect. Cleaned it, raked it, made it look perfect. Came back and looked at it, and [00:09:45] it was it’s pristine. But something was missing. She went to [00:09:50] the cherry tree, shook it, and a few blossoms fell down. And then he came back and he looked at [00:09:55] it and it was beautiful. So there is beauty in perfection. [00:10:00] And apparently from that the whole ceremony changed a little bit so that the tea ceremony had a little [00:10:05] bit of imperfection in it, just so that people can see the beauty in it. And I thought, [00:10:10] oh, actually, I like that. Maybe, maybe we don’t need to beat ourselves [00:10:15] up too much. No no no no no. And I do that, you know, constantly.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, [00:10:20] but the Japanese, they’ve got that broken vase put back together with the gold bits [00:10:25] and the cracks. Yeah, whatever that was called, but as well. Right. That’s the same idea.

Shameek Popat: Same idea? Yeah, [00:10:30] yeah, the whole concept that the.

Payman Langroudi: Other thing, the other thing that I sometimes struggle with is struggle is a [00:10:35] funny word, but I struggle with is whatever the idea is, whatever the thing is, [00:10:40] whatever I’m assessing, I go, is that good or is that bad? Not [00:10:45] making enough space for. It’s both good and bad. And I don’t know if you’ve been to Bali. They’ve got [00:10:50] their ceremony. Where at one side they’ve got the good dancer, then [00:10:55] they’ve got the bad, you know, the devil, the god, the devil. And at the end it’s always a draw. It’s always [00:11:00] a draw between those two.

Shameek Popat: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: Know, but I’m saying when you look at something. Oh, this, this [00:11:05] move you made into toothpaste, is that a good move or is that a bad move? It’s limiting to [00:11:10] put it into one of those two categories. Yeah, it’s good in many ways. It’s bad in some ways. Right. [00:11:15]

Shameek Popat: You know, with with this um, [00:11:20] let’s talk about tooth angels. Let’s talk about tooth. Yeah. We’ll talk about tooth angel.

Payman Langroudi: Over. [00:11:25] Pass over. Well while we talk about it, Passover.

Shameek Popat: Where you.

Payman Langroudi: Are [00:11:30] now, I wanted to do the unboxing.

Shameek Popat: Myself. Oh, sorry, my friend.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s see. Uh, I wanted to do the on books and [00:11:35] myself. Go ahead.

Shameek Popat: Explain.

Shameek Popat: So tooth Angel is.

Shameek Popat: A health.

Shameek Popat: Led, planet positive [00:11:40] concept. Um, you know, it’s it’s sort of obvious. [00:11:45] I’ll give you the backstory.

Shameek Popat: Yeah.

Shameek Popat: So it’s it’s a luxury [00:11:50] oral hygiene brand with sustainability at its heart, because self-care [00:11:55] should not just benefit us, but should benefit the planet as well. You know, um, [00:12:00] there’s a guy called Robert Shaw who said that the worst [00:12:05] thing that you can do in the world is expect others to make the [00:12:10] planet good. So if you don’t step in and do something yourself, even if it’s a little, [00:12:15] you’re not going to have a world or a planet to live in. And during [00:12:20] Covid, I was watching Suspiciously plastic Ocean. I [00:12:25] was literally shocked at the amount of plastic in our oceans. And I don’t know if [00:12:30] you know these facts and stuff. Like just in the US alone, 2 billion toothbrushes are thrown away [00:12:35] in the world is an approx 23 billion toothbrushes [00:12:40] being thrown away every year, and only 91% or 91% [00:12:45] of it is not recycled. Only 9% is recycled. So can you just imagine? The rest go into [00:12:50] landfills and the environment. I thought as dentists we surely we we [00:12:55] have to do something about it. So I went I went on a big research mission. [00:13:00] Um, I read papers, I went travelling, and, you [00:13:05] know, obviously, if you think what jumps out is, oh, bamboo [00:13:10] toothbrushes. Right. Okay. They must be surely good. Yeah, but bamboo toothbrushes [00:13:15] are not the answer. Why? Bamboo is made of wood, sugar and starch absorbs [00:13:20] moisture. Moulds. Who wants to put a mouldy piece of wood in their [00:13:25] mouth because the bristles are nowhere as good? Plus they come away from faraway countries.

Shameek Popat: So just [00:13:30] the carbon emissions itself negate anything good that they bring to it. Plus, I don’t know if you’re [00:13:35] aware of it. With bamboo toothbrushes, you’re actually supposed to snap the head off, throw [00:13:40] the handle in the seat and the head in your normal waist. How many people do that? And if [00:13:45] you don’t do that, the whole thing is a waste. So if there’s one message that comes out, if you’re using bamboo toothbrushes, [00:13:50] snap the head off, put the handle in the composite and head can go into [00:13:55] your waist. But it was little things like that and it just didn’t. And plus [00:14:00] people go through loads of bamboo toothbrushes as well. So they need a lot more bamboo toothbrushes [00:14:05] as well. So again that negates any use to us. But don’t get me wrong. Anything [00:14:10] that stops plastic getting into our oceans and landfills I’m for. So I’m not against it, but [00:14:15] it did not resonate with me. The other thing like obviously [00:14:20] toothpaste, toothpaste tubes, toothpaste tablets. Love the idea, the concept [00:14:25] are good, friends are doing it and I really support them. But you know, I like toothpaste. A lot [00:14:30] of friends and people that I talk to like toothpaste. I wanted to do something with toothpaste, but I wanted to be clever about it. So [00:14:35] which is why I went travelling. I went Switzerland, Germany, Italy, manufacturers [00:14:40] to come up with the solutions that we have. So I see you handling [00:14:45] the toothbrush here. If you pass that to me.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about [00:14:50] when you say toothpaste gone.

Shameek Popat: Let’s do this one and then I can talk about, uh, why [00:14:55] do we throw a toothbrush away?

Payman Langroudi: Because the bristles are.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. [00:15:00] The bristles wear away. They become ineffective. Okay. But you throw the whole thing away. Mhm. All right. [00:15:05] So it’s a huge waste with this.

Payman Langroudi: You actually pop out the bristles. [00:15:10]

Shameek Popat: Yeah. You keep the handle for life clean.

Payman Langroudi: It keeps a plastic handle. But you only.

Shameek Popat: Keep recyclable plastic. [00:15:15] This is recyclable as well. This we actually also have a tooth angel zero waste box. [00:15:20] And we recycle everything that we provide with TerraCycle as well. So practices [00:15:25] can have their teeth. Angel zero waste box. So that’s a 92% [00:15:30] plastic saving in itself. Okay. That’s a huge, huge saving. [00:15:35] Plus these bristles. They’re carbon activated so they’re antibacterial [00:15:40] anti odour humidity regulating quick drying and soft. You [00:15:45] know John Coats. Yeah John called it one of his two favourite toothbrushes. [00:15:50] So that was really. And the floss as well. His favourite. One of his favourite floss.

Payman Langroudi: Was [00:15:55] his other favourite.

Shameek Popat: Uh, it’s called a Nimbus. What’s that? It’s a Mexican. No [00:16:00] no, no, it’s it’s plastic. But the bristles. He loves the bristles because they’re soft. Okay. [00:16:05] And I don’t know. So obviously the question comes, [00:16:10] you know, is. But it’s still plastic. Right. Now [00:16:15] here’s where the greenwashing stops. So in September 2020, uh, Prof. [00:16:20] Ashley from UCL and Brett Dewan from Trinity College Dublin did a series of papers in the British [00:16:25] Dental Journal, and they did a cradle to grave assessment of every toothbrush [00:16:30] out there. So normal plastic manuals, bamboo, electric [00:16:35] and plastic with replaceable heads. And they found plastic with little head. The best for the [00:16:40] environment and associated human health by far. So suddenly we had research behind [00:16:45] it.

Payman Langroudi: Did it already exist?

Shameek Popat: You know what? This is the funny thing. So we we did [00:16:50] the idea and stuff and everything and stuff. And then I was doing research for the pitch [00:16:55] deck. Yeah. And the papers came up. Yeah. And I was like this. It was [00:17:00] meant to be. I actually didn’t know.

Payman Langroudi: So the papers kept. So it did already [00:17:05] exist.

Shameek Popat: So the papers were already there? I just didn’t know I hadn’t read them. I found them afterwards, and I was like, [00:17:10] oh, my God, I just landed.

Payman Langroudi: It came to the right conclusion.

Shameek Popat: Conclusion as well. So. Yeah. See? Great minds think [00:17:15] alike.

Payman Langroudi: Look, what I’m interested in doing here is positioning. Yeah. [00:17:20] Positioning. So we talked about positioning before. Is it luxury. Is it premium. Is [00:17:25] it. And you said it’s luxury. Yeah. But positioning now. Now we’re talking positioning.

Shameek Popat: Give me your [00:17:30] definition. Difference between luxury and premium.

Payman Langroudi: Luxury is one of our premium. [00:17:35] So so premium might be Marks and Spencer, luxury might be Harrods food. For [00:17:40] the sake of the argument, I don’t know. Uh, what’s it called? Um, the Amazon [00:17:45] one. Um, the organic store anyway. [00:17:50]

Shameek Popat: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Um, now, [00:17:55] when I say positioning, that’s that’s price and quality positioning. But now [00:18:00] we’re, we’re talking about, you know, brand values. Right. And, and you’re seeing the brand values [00:18:05] here as well as the, you know, research you’re putting into each product is the green part [00:18:10] of it, right? I find that though like [00:18:15] it’s, it’s it’s probably a temporary win [00:18:20] if it’s a win I mean let’s, let’s say it’s a win for the sake of the argument. Yeah. Because it’s not it’s [00:18:25] very expensive recycling everything. And you know, it’s, it’s a, it’s a pain in the ass being this [00:18:30] this this company. Right? So let’s imagine it’s a win and more people [00:18:35] will buy buy it because of it. Yeah, I feel like it’s a contemporary one because everyone [00:18:40] will have to become green soon. Yeah. [00:18:45] And then you can say, oh, we’re even more green than the next one. But you know what I mean? The moment Colgate [00:18:50] has to legally has to do these things, they will. Right. They’ll [00:18:55] have, you know. So I’m not saying it’s a problem. You know, the more awareness [00:19:00] this this subject gets, the better.

Shameek Popat: So you’re absolutely correct. So, um, [00:19:05] what I should make clear, actually, is we’re clinicians. So [00:19:10] whatever we were going to make was always going to be the best for you as well. Okay. [00:19:15] So our our priority number one is that these are good products [00:19:20] that are good for you with the research and backing behind it. The sustainability [00:19:25] is the kicker. Yeah okay. So it’s the secondary part to it. But I [00:19:30] didn’t. I didn’t want to make, um, products that [00:19:35] are not going to be good for the environment as well. Oh, sure. Sure. Right. Um, [00:19:40] because you’re planning.

Payman Langroudi: On electric as well. Must have. Do.

Shameek Popat: Not [00:19:45] yet. Uh, never say never. You know, but not yet. The [00:19:50] reason being, again, electric is more than five times worse [00:19:55] than what we’ve created for the environment. Um, and, you know, there’s this whole.

Payman Langroudi: Do [00:20:00] you not use an electric toothbrush?

Shameek Popat: No, no, I’ve always used manual.

Payman Langroudi: That’s why it’s [00:20:05] always. Always.

[BOTH]: Yeah. Wow.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. I’ve used electric when I’ve had samples and stuff and everything. Again, [00:20:10] I don’t know whether it’s a control freak or whatever, but. Oh. So I’ll tell you why. I created [00:20:15] one of the reasons I also we created this and stuff as well, is I wanted a brush that [00:20:20] felt like a spy in your mouth. When you brushed, it felt like, oh, that feels good. I want [00:20:25] it to bring that love back to brushing and flossing. I didn’t want to make it a chore. [00:20:30] Which is what most people see it as I want it to do. Oh, actually, you know what? I’m looking forward to brushing with [00:20:35] this. I’m looking forward to flossing with this floss because my hands are going to smell really nice afterwards. [00:20:40] My breath is going to smell good. My teeth are going.

Payman Langroudi: To feel good. I’ve long thought flavour in [00:20:45] toothpaste is is like, why can’t toothpaste be absolutely delicious? [00:20:50] Like like, look forward to it. Delicious.

Shameek Popat: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Why not? Like. And I’ve [00:20:55] always wanted to do that product. Yeah, but Santa has stopped me. And he’s probably been right. Because [00:21:00] you have to do SKUs. Then you have to do lots. Excuse me, but I don’t know if you’ve tried the dark wood and Tanner [00:21:05] toothpaste.

Shameek Popat: No, I haven’t, actually. I didn’t even know they had water.

Payman Langroudi: It’s second best toothpaste [00:21:10] in the world after.

Shameek Popat: Enlightened, obviously, but that’s what you haven’t tried. The tooth angel.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:21:15] tasty that the tastiest. Yeah, because they’ve got four different flavours. Yeah, I [00:21:20] bought all four and I used to choose, you know. Yeah. Brazilian lime [00:21:25] one day and then choose Sicilian lemon another day. But the execution [00:21:30] was brilliant. It wasn’t just the idea. Yeah, plenty of people have had the idea. Yeah, but the execution [00:21:35] of the taste. Because one thing about taste with toothpaste is there has to be an element [00:21:40] of mint in it. Whatever the flavour is like, if your flavour is cinnamon, it has to be cinnamon. [00:21:45]

Shameek Popat: Exactly. So that’s what we’ve done. We’ve actually created.

Payman Langroudi: What flavours [00:21:50] are mint?

Shameek Popat: Mint? Yeah, yeah. It’s English, white milk.

Payman Langroudi: English, English.

Shameek Popat: English wild mint. Yes, [00:21:55] absolutely. I thought you were the one.

Payman Langroudi: I thought was going to give me something.

Shameek Popat: Else. No no no no. Oh, [00:22:00] I should have bought the cinnamon one.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

[BOTH]: Have you got one? Yeah.

Shameek Popat: I’ll send it to you.

[BOTH]: I’ll send it to you.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [00:22:05] So did you not worry about cinnamon being, um, sensitive people? Being, uh, allergic to cinnamon? [00:22:10] Because I wanted to do that, and, and and the the manufacturer said be [00:22:15] careful.

Shameek Popat: You know. So here’s the funny story. The whole thing started [00:22:20] is because I wanted a cinnamon floss.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Shameek Popat: You know, I whenever I go to the [00:22:25] US, I used to pick up the big Red and the Cinnamon Man. I love [00:22:30] cinnamon stuff, so I know I wanted to do things that [00:22:35] you want. I like that I can put my heart and soul into it. [00:22:40] Um.

Payman Langroudi: Body shop used to do the mint toothpaste. Delicious, [00:22:45] delicious toothpaste.

Shameek Popat: And, you know, and plus, I think, you know, there’s a whole market which, [00:22:50] actually, we still need to go for the whole Indian market. The Asian market. They love cinnamon, [00:22:55] right? Um, which is an unexplored market, really. [00:23:00] So we, you know, we want to target that as well. And then the toothpaste we created [00:23:05] is, is lovely. So I actually I’ll have a mint full morning and then cinnamon [00:23:10] for the night.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. So am PM for me was would have been like much more [00:23:15] around essential oils. Um like one like the story. The brand story [00:23:20] would have been oh, this camomile essential oil puts people to sleep Like. Like a like an angel. [00:23:25] And then. So you’d have that in the evening and then in the morning, it’d be like a grapefruit. Essential oil [00:23:30] has been shown to make your brain acuity better and then wake up with, with, with with grapefruit. [00:23:35] I just think flavours and toothpaste are really. But I’ll tell you another brilliant [00:23:40] execution. High smiles, flavoured ones. Brilliant [00:23:45] execution. Brilliant execution. Yeah. We love, we love to hate. Hi Somalia.

Shameek Popat: Only [00:23:50] because they did a little gimmicky stuff and stuff and then it sort of shadowed what else they’ve done [00:23:55] actually execute.

Payman Langroudi: You have to think that. What is the product. Right. The purple toothpaste. [00:24:00] They weren’t the first to do purple toothpaste. Purple toothpaste was around for years before. [00:24:05] But the execution, the way the thing clicks, the way you put it on, the taste [00:24:10] of it, you know, the execution was strong. You can’t doubt that.

Shameek Popat: Taste [00:24:15] was okay. I have tried them and stuff, but I like them.

Payman Langroudi: I tried that, but [00:24:20] the thing is, dude, do you agree it doesn’t take a dentist to make these things?

[BOTH]: Ah, okay. [00:24:25]

Shameek Popat: So that was my other thing, right? And that was my other bugbear.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Shameek Popat: That [00:24:30] if you look in the market just now.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Shameek Popat: Most of the toothpaste that is out there [00:24:35] is actually made by advertisers, marketers or pharmaceutical companies of it. They’re not made [00:24:40] by dentists, hygienists, periodontist who are working in the coalface, [00:24:45] who know better, who know what they want for their patients. Which [00:24:50] is why I got a team together with dentists, hygienists, therapists, periodontist. [00:24:55] You know, products don’t make a great business. People [00:25:00] do. Right? Which is why you surround yourself with some of the best people around. [00:25:05] Right. Your team is just fantastic. Thank you. Um, you know, you have a lovely team, [00:25:10] you know, not just to tell you that, but you’ve been an inspiration to everything I’ve done as well. [00:25:15] Uh, you know, the tooth angel, the smiles. I’m literally like. I think I’m just [00:25:20] following in your footsteps in a way.

[BOTH]: Be careful.

Shameek Popat: I [00:25:25] am so, you know. You know, I always just thought, you know, these these boys have done so well. [00:25:30] Um. And you guys are someone, you know, people to look up to.

Payman Langroudi: That’s nice, man. That’s [00:25:35] nice to say that, but my question. Is [00:25:40] a dentist best place to make these products? So, dude, I’m a dentist. I’m a dentist, [00:25:45] and I’ve done toothpaste, so I my answer is yes. Yeah, but execution [00:25:50] wise not necessarily man. Yeah. Not necessarily. [00:25:55] No, it doesn’t matter, dude. It’s cool that the fact that that that that’s my position [00:26:00] doesn’t mean that you’ve done an incorrect thing. My point on this idea of yours [00:26:05] is it has to be a direct consumer. Has to be has to be a direct consumer. The volume just [00:26:10] is never going to be enough. Okay. You could become the top supplier to dentists [00:26:15] and wherever has to be a direct consumer approach to it. Yeah.

Shameek Popat: So [00:26:20] I don’t disagree with you there. It has to be. So the question will be yeah, you just [00:26:25] got to hire the right people to get it out there. Yeah. And yeah, unfortunately for that you need some [00:26:30] decent finance backing as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So now this is where I was really going [00:26:35] to go with this question. Right. Let’s say you’ve you’ve owned a practice. Yeah. [00:26:40] And there’s people out there thinking I fancy doing toothpaste. Yeah. In fact, every [00:26:45] single dentist had that dream once. Once in a while. Right.

[BOTH]: Now I’ve [00:26:50] got it.

Shameek Popat: There’s a difference between ideas, dreams [00:26:55] and execution.

[BOTH]: Oh.

Shameek Popat: Huge. Right. The amount [00:27:00] of ideas.

[BOTH]: Ideas are.

Payman Langroudi: Cheap.

[BOTH]: Ideas are cheap.

Shameek Popat: They’re cheap. Right. Do you remember the [00:27:05] amount of times we’ve met at conferences? And somebody talked about some ideas and traded [00:27:10] ideas and stuff, and it’s been great talking about it and dreaming about it and stuff. But [00:27:15] then to put it into.

Payman Langroudi: Well or although although I used to say I used to. I used [00:27:20] to make my kids repeat that to my to me in the when they were five and three, [00:27:25] six and four. You know, I constantly used to make them repeat that phrase to me, the ideas. [00:27:30] Nothing without execution. But the world has just gone upside down. Yeah, [00:27:35] I yeah, it’s all about the idea now. It’s all about the idea. And all [00:27:40] those cats you used to sit back and say, I think I know a great idea to do this. Suddenly those guys [00:27:45] are in a totally different situation because execution is becoming much easier, [00:27:50] much, much, much easier. And it’s a real shift around where now, like, [00:27:55] if you could come up with an amazing story about whatever you’re [00:28:00] into, like in the Star Wars meets or whatever. Yeah. If this story is amazing. Yeah, [00:28:05] you could make that movie The day after tomorrow. Like pay some subscription to Sora or whatever. You [00:28:10] know, you could you could get it done for less than the price of a 10,000 tube of toothpaste. Yeah. [00:28:15] So ideas become everything. That’s wonderful. It’s a wonderful [00:28:20] switch.

Shameek Popat: It’s going to be exciting. Uh, with AI and obviously, you know, [00:28:25] we all use ChatGPT. And it’s been it’s been it’s been a fantastic tool. Um, I have to admit, but [00:28:30] I do still think what AI lacks [00:28:35] is connectivity. Relationship, emotion. [00:28:40] All of that is not there yet. Yeah. [00:28:45] And I think that’s why we’re still going to be, uh, [00:28:50] viable or we’re still going to be relevant. Because humans. [00:28:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. Look, man, I mean, I’m sure our grandparents [00:29:00] were sitting there when the first TV came out and said, just change everything. And it did. [00:29:05] It did changed everything. But humans still wanted to break bread. You know, there [00:29:10] are some there are some basics, right? That will never [00:29:15] change.

Shameek Popat: No. But soon, as soon as they create AI with emotion, we’re [00:29:20] screwed.

Payman Langroudi: I look like I said to my son, I wouldn’t be surprised if his [00:29:25] his son was in love with an AI. With an with a robot. Yeah, like. Well, you [00:29:30] know, it could easily happen.

Shameek Popat: It can easily.

Payman Langroudi: Happen. Yeah.

Shameek Popat: Like I would say, as soon as emotion comes into [00:29:35] it. Right. I think that’s a really, really. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Why did you do mouth spray?

Shameek Popat: Because. [00:29:40]

Payman Langroudi: Were you thinking.

Shameek Popat: The thinking behind that [00:29:45] was I wanted something. Yeah, thunk. Like, I wanted a bougie thing that everyone can carry. [00:29:50] Males and females in their pockets. Handbags and something that actually [00:29:55] come. Yeah. It’s new, so you just have to. Yeah. Something [00:30:00] that actually combated bad breath. Not just mask it. So it’s got sodium chloride in it. [00:30:05] So it eliminates VOCs. Plus it’s got xylitol. Potassium nitrate.

Payman Langroudi: Surprisingly [00:30:10] good taste. Like almost doesn’t like it.

Shameek Popat: Take that. Neutral.

Payman Langroudi: More [00:30:15] neutral. I’m surprised. I thought I’d hate that, but actually, that’s suddenly become my favourite thing. [00:30:20]

Shameek Popat: That’s the amount of people that are using that is is quite, quite, quite a lot, actually. [00:30:25]

Payman Langroudi: Um, it’s called connotations, isn’t it? Of 70s guys. Whatever. Yeah. [00:30:30]

Shameek Popat: But it needs a revival, not the other. Hate I have is [00:30:35] if someone’s chewing chewing gum and talking to me. Me too. Oh my God. It [00:30:40] irritates me. Yeah. Um, so Bret sprays so much better that way.

Payman Langroudi: And these. [00:30:45] This floss is made of what?

Shameek Popat: It’s actually made from recycled water bottles. Huh. [00:30:50] So it’s a four headed razor floss. What? Four headed razor floss?

Payman Langroudi: Which [00:30:55] means.

Shameek Popat: What?

Payman Langroudi: It’s like braided. Kind of. Yeah, yeah.

Shameek Popat: Uh, foreheads and twined together. Which is what makes [00:31:00] it so thick.

Payman Langroudi: Good.

Shameek Popat: Um. And, uh, made from recycled water bottles [00:31:05] coated with xylitol and hydroxyapatite and full of flavour. And I am [00:31:10] really, really kicking myself. Not bringing you the cinnamon one, because that is my favourite. [00:31:15] But you know what?

Payman Langroudi: What can I ask? Can I ask you a quick question? Did you find a manufacturer that was already doing floss [00:31:20] with hydroxyapatite, or did you suggest it?

Shameek Popat: I suggested.

Payman Langroudi: It. Wow.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. So [00:31:25] these. Those things are. Yeah. Those things are.

Payman Langroudi: Doing things that other people won’t [00:31:30] do. You know that. That’s what keeps you competitive advantage. You know, like executing on that. [00:31:35] Yeah. Very easy. Dude, you had to walk into IDs and go straight to the career [00:31:40] thing and say, stick my logo on these seven things. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. But [00:31:45] not a good idea. Not a good idea if you’re small. Yeah. If you’re small, you’ve got to make some breakthroughs. You [00:31:50] know, like, you know, people fool themselves, right? They say, oh, this guy is wearing a Burberry [00:31:55] t shirt, and this other guy is wearing an Armani t shirt, and all these t shirts are made in the same place. There’s [00:32:00] different logos. They forget. Yeah. Burberry did something like spectacular. [00:32:05] Yeah. In the 50s, whatever it was with women, English women in London or 60, whatever it was. And Armani [00:32:10] did something spectacular in his day. Now that they’ve done these amazing things and defined [00:32:15] culture, now they can stick their logo on a t shirt. And for that to be a meaningful thing. Yeah, [00:32:20] me and you can’t, you know, until we make a change, unless we [00:32:25] do something, you know, then your logo on a t shirt might be worth something. Yeah.

Shameek Popat: So. But that’s [00:32:30] the thing. So when we were doing this, you know, a lot of research, a lot of reading [00:32:35] are trying to find, I did for the toothpaste. I did an Excel spreadsheet of [00:32:40] every toothpaste ingredient out there. Yeah. To then create what would be the [00:32:45] perfect ingredients for me?

Payman Langroudi: Is it free of all the baddies?

Shameek Popat: Yeah. So it’s got no SLS, [00:32:50] no BPA, no titanium dioxide, no artificial sweeteners.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:32:55] Did you not find that without. It’s just not pleasing.

Shameek Popat: No. It’s good. So try it. I want you to try it. [00:33:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sodium coke herself. Yeah, it’s just getting it. [00:33:05] All right.

Payman Langroudi: I find it non pleasing, you know.

Shameek Popat: Trust me.

Payman Langroudi: Try it. I [00:33:10] will.

Shameek Popat: Don’t get me wrong. It’s not going to be as good as having SLS.

Payman Langroudi: One thing I found is.

Shameek Popat: When it’s. [00:33:15]

Payman Langroudi: Good enough, when you say, try it. Yeah. Like I. I’ve got people upstairs, you know, who will not use enlightened [00:33:20] toothpaste, you know, because it’s not minty enough. Yeah. You know, [00:33:25] our toothpaste aren’t on purpose. Yeah.

Shameek Popat: You made it mild.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. The thing was called serum. Right. [00:33:30] So. And people were putting it in the bleaching tray and putting it in for an hour at a time. It couldn’t be too [00:33:35] minty. Yeah. So ours aren’t. But, you know, we’re not using our teeth. And what I’m saying [00:33:40] is different people have totally different, like, taste when it comes to. Right? Right. What they want from a toothpaste. [00:33:45]

Shameek Popat: You can’t please everyone.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t.

Shameek Popat: You can’t please everyone. So you know I [00:33:50] trust me. I spent a lot of money, um, trying [00:33:55] out loads of different versions and stuff to to find the one that we actually eventually [00:34:00] thought. Yes, this is it. Um, I’m actually making a new one now. At the moment. [00:34:05] Not without fluoride. Me too. Oh, nice. Yeah. Excellent. [00:34:10] So it’s got some super cool ingredients. But I’m having a nightmare with the flavour [00:34:15] at the moment. So we’re we’re going for, like, an apple mint. Um, [00:34:20] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Nice. So let’s talk about money. Where [00:34:25] did you get the money to do all this?

Shameek Popat: Um, you know what? [00:34:30] It was not as difficult as I thought it would be, because [00:34:35] obviously I put money in myself. I’d sold my practice, so I had some money. [00:34:40] Um, and then, you know, just talk to friends, actually, and, you know, [00:34:45] pitch the idea that a pitch deck. And then suddenly. Yeah, a lot of people just said. [00:34:50] Yeah, absolutely. And then obviously did it through an sis. Uh, so, [00:34:55] you know, 50% of their investment is just straight away giving back to them through a tax rebate. [00:35:00] So their risk goes down and say, let’s touch wood. Doesn’t [00:35:05] but say the whole thing goes tits up. The next 5,045% will then be [00:35:10] written off as well. So their risk in the end is not a huge amount. Otherwise I wouldn’t have done it because these [00:35:15] are my friends.

Payman Langroudi: Um, is that so?

Shameek Popat: It would be, uh, 50, [00:35:20] 45? About 20%. That’s good. Yeah. So probably a good night [00:35:25] out in London.

Payman Langroudi: So were you basically selling that size thing more than [00:35:30] the opportunity itself to people who didn’t know what it was?

Shameek Popat: No, they all knew what it was. [00:35:35] Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because they were all dentists, hygienists. They’re all they’re all, uh, [00:35:40] you know, Dick Andrew, Chandra Powell, Sam Jatoi, Arnie [00:35:45] Seaborn.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shameek Popat: Don Shilpa, Andy [00:35:50] Acton. So we’ve got a really good team.

Payman Langroudi: Feel the weight of it.

Shameek Popat: Oh my gosh, [00:35:55] big time. I still do it. I still feel the weight.

Payman Langroudi: Look it’s important I’ve never [00:36:00] really had an investor but it’s really important if you have investors that you bear in mind you’re [00:36:05] spending other people’s money, man. Spending other people’s money is difficult. No, it’s difficult when it’s your own money. [00:36:10] You can sort of make a bet on something and feel good. Yeah. So by just [00:36:15] by investing in you, they’re saying, listen, we’re up for your bets. Yeah. But what’s the structure? Do these [00:36:20] any of these guys, are they on the board or like, do you have to discuss. Do you have to get permission from Nissan every [00:36:25] time you want to do something?

Shameek Popat: No, no not really. They’re they’re they’re they’re all they’re all so chill. They’re all so [00:36:30] good. Um, and you know, I think they trust in the [00:36:35] product. They trust with what we’re doing. Um, you know, who knows? [00:36:40] But hopefully, fingers crossed at the moment. So far, so good.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:36:45] is it profitable?

Shameek Popat: Not at the moment. We’ve only been going [00:36:50] for a year.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shameek Popat: It’s literally, you know, launched, like, properly, [00:36:55] uh, last time at the industry Showcase. Really?

Payman Langroudi: So [00:37:00] there’s nothing I was going to get to do. Yeah, I know, I know the reasons why you did this. Yeah, because, you know, you sold [00:37:05] your practice, you know? But for someone else who hasn’t yet opened a practice, or maybe [00:37:10] from number one to number two or number two to number three, or whichever way, who fancies [00:37:15] doing something like this? Yeah, I don’t I’ve never owned a practice, so you correct me. Right. But [00:37:20] let’s say I’ve got a quarter of £1 million. If I put that into a practice, I can buy myself [00:37:25] £1 million practice or whatever. Yeah, that million pound practice the following year [00:37:30] might give me my quarter of a million back, or maybe just less or whatever. Yeah. Or [00:37:35] two years.

Shameek Popat: Wishful thinking.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. It’s harder than okay. No, but are you saying what? [00:37:40] Whether you should buy a practice or do this? Yeah. Buy a practice? Yeah, yeah. No brainer at all. [00:37:45] No brainer at all.

Payman Langroudi: Now I understand why you did this. Yeah, because sometimes you want to do something [00:37:50] fun, and sometimes you want to shoot for the moon. Yeah. Like, you know, if this goes [00:37:55] right, you could buy fly a helicopter. Whatever. Yeah. Yeah. So I understand why you do it. [00:38:00] Understand why you do it. But as advice to others. People thinking, oh, products are so, so [00:38:05] fashionable these days.

Shameek Popat: No, no, no, I agree with that. It’s tough.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:38:10] tough. Tougher than you imagined.

Shameek Popat: A lot tougher than I imagined. Don’t get me wrong, I [00:38:15] had a lot of fun doing it. You know, the meetings with branding, [00:38:20] website development, designing. Oh, my God, I felt [00:38:25] alive. And I’m doing it all over again as well, so I feel alive. So all that part is amazing. [00:38:30] You know, and I loved it. And, you know, uh, your, your creative [00:38:35] juices flow and you don’t sleep at night because you’ve got hundreds [00:38:40] of ideas coming in and staff. Um, so that’s all fun. But then once it’s all of [00:38:45] that’s done, and then you actually have to get the product out there and get people buying [00:38:50] it. It is tough. It’s tough. Plus also the margins on these are [00:38:55] quite small. Right. So it doesn’t make sense.

Payman Langroudi: How much.

Shameek Popat: Is that? It’s, uh, £31. [00:39:00]

Payman Langroudi: 99 to the consumer.

Shameek Popat: Consumer?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And the dentist.

Shameek Popat: The dentist. Buy at a 30% [00:39:05] discount. So that’s their margin, 30%. But they can obviously put the prices up a little bit. That’s [00:39:10] a suggested RRP. Um, because obviously if you buy it from our website, our ecommerce [00:39:15] store and stuff, they’ll pay a delivery charge as well and stuff. So you’ve got that little bit of leeway as well.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:39:20] interesting because, you know, when we did the serum, it was [00:39:25] way back then. You couldn’t get ingredients like hydroxyapatite weren’t, you [00:39:30] know. Yeah. There was one manufacturer. I found one. Yeah. And, um, I had to [00:39:35] introduce that manufacturer to the toothpaste. Uh, factory? [00:39:40] Yeah. There was no other choice. Yeah, and he was charging a lot. Yeah. Bovine as well. And [00:39:45] so when the price of the product had to be £12 or something. [00:39:50] And I remember thinking £12 for toothpaste, man. Like, [00:39:55] who’s gonna buy it? Yeah. And I was looking in boots last [00:40:00] week. There’s a £25 Colgate product now £25. Yeah. [00:40:05] Yeah. So the category has got to that. Like, you know there’s moon. There’s um [00:40:10] obviously hi smile. The categories got itself.

Shameek Popat: Up to that. Yeah you’re right. There [00:40:15] are so many out there.

Payman Langroudi: But that said that said, it’s nowhere near mature. Yeah. [00:40:20] Like, it’s not like hair or skin or lips even. Yeah. Lips. I [00:40:25] my my daughter came to me and said, oh, can I have this lip gloss. Lip, lip. Not [00:40:30] not not makeup. What’s it called?

Shameek Popat: The lip gloss.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. Not makeup. Just something [00:40:35] that makes hydrates your lips. Right. Can I have this lip gloss? Yeah. So. Sure. Push [00:40:40] the button. 1499 for lip gloss. Yeah. Believe me, I can believe it. Yeah. [00:40:45] And she. She was thinking nothing of it. Yeah.

Shameek Popat: So, you know what the comparison I do [00:40:50] put here is, is because people are used to spending 2.99 [00:40:55] for a toothpaste. It’s like people are used to NHS dentistry, [00:41:00] right? That set the benchmark. So which is why [00:41:05] private dentistry suddenly becomes looks so much more expensive. The same with these things, even though the products [00:41:10] are so much better with my. My ingredients cost more than what [00:41:15] most toothpastes are selling for out there cost you the cost of [00:41:20] that.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. It’s not, it’s not.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. I get them from Italy. They’re the highest [00:41:25] grade hydroxyapatite that you can get. Um, really, [00:41:30] really good, good product. Uh, and it’s tough trying to. And then the new one is going to [00:41:35] be even more expensive because of the ingredients I’m using in it.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:41:40] is that are you getting resistance on price?

Shameek Popat: Not [00:41:45] as much, because at the moment we focus. Ah. You see, my thing [00:41:50] was and this is where I’m slightly changing my mindset a little bit was I [00:41:55] thought dentists and hygienists and therapists would be [00:42:00] our salespeople, really, because I wanted to empower them to be able to [00:42:05] sell products that are good for their patients. Their practice [00:42:10] makes a little bit of money and the fact that they’ll have a tooth. Angel zero waste box patients [00:42:15] can come in and recycle everything and buy new products. So it’s a circular economy [00:42:20] happening everywhere. So everyone win win. So we concentrated on that first, [00:42:25] um, before we went out to the general public. And I thought once they get the word out there that this is a good product, [00:42:30] we thought organic. Yeah, it’d be like an organic flow happening. [00:42:35] Um, but yeah, but, you know, don’t get me wrong, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Been you changed your mind now.

Shameek Popat: And I have changed my mind a little [00:42:40] bit. Um, because of seeing what other [00:42:45] brands are doing, you know, and how their trajectory has gone because they’ve gone direct consumer. [00:42:50] But again, they, you know, they must have had lots of backing because it’s all on advertising.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, the direct to [00:42:55] consumer is a massive, bigger nightmare. Yeah, bigger. Much bigger nightmare than than [00:43:00] the dentistry. Much bigger. Yeah, I can imagine. But my, my my point to you [00:43:05] was you’ve put yourself in that nightmare situation of having to go direct consumer. That was [00:43:10] what I was saying about it. But hey go direct consumer. Yeah. Because, you know, you might work. [00:43:15] I’m not standing here telling you.

Shameek Popat: To not do it. So I think the next one we [00:43:20] will. Because obviously it’s a non fluoride one.

Payman Langroudi: By [00:43:25] the way when I asked you the question about is there price. Objection. Right. Is is price.

Shameek Popat: Yes. [00:43:30] Of course there will be.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t put yourself in the luxury category without price. Objection.

Shameek Popat: No, no [00:43:35] you can’t. Absolutely. So there is.

Payman Langroudi: Obviously it’s part of the luxury category. Did you hear that bit with [00:43:40] a guy from Hermes where he goes, oh, home is very expensive. And he goes, no, it’s [00:43:45] costly. He goes, what’s the difference? And he [00:43:50] goes, when you spend the time to. To do it, do things properly that costs. [00:43:55] But expensive is where it’s something expensive. Something you’ve paid money for, something that something you paid [00:44:00] money for but didn’t deliver. Yeah. Different things. I love that, actually. [00:44:05]

Shameek Popat: I love that. I love the accent.

Payman Langroudi: My kids are in French school. French [00:44:10] school? Yeah.

Shameek Popat: Oh, yeah. How’s that?

Payman Langroudi: My wife’s Lebanese.

Shameek Popat: Oh. [00:44:15]

Payman Langroudi: She was. She was in the same school. You know, the Lisa is very. The [00:44:20] Lisa in South Kenya is very, like, good. It’s the best Lisa outside France, right? Okay. [00:44:25] Yeah. But but look that question. Right. I think about brands [00:44:30] sometimes. Yeah. Like brands outside our area. Like [00:44:35] brands that that I think of it in two different ways. One is stuff I [00:44:40] adore. Stuff I love. Yeah. There isn’t much like, uh, AirPods. Yeah. [00:44:45] You know, I yeah, I adore that outside of phone, [00:44:50] outside of software stuff like, you know, Instagram. That doesn’t count, right? There [00:44:55] isn’t much in products that I adore. But [00:45:00] brands that I’m really impressed by. Yeah. I [00:45:05] mean the one, the one that in the end is like, for me, the most [00:45:10] impressive brand.

Shameek Popat: Evian Avion. [00:45:15]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s extraordinary if you if I put a three, 4 or 5 bottles [00:45:20] of water in front of you. So they’re all the same price. Pick one. Which one will you pick? Like [00:45:25] you’re going to you’re going to pick the outside of the Fiji luxury like outside of that. But [00:45:30] Evian right. It’s water dude. It’s water. Yeah. And yet they’ve they’ve I’ve [00:45:35] got no idea whether it’s better for you water or taste you in the Pepsi Challenge. [00:45:40] You definitely mess it up right there between Evian and Highland Spring. You wouldn’t be able to tell the [00:45:45] difference, right?

Shameek Popat: Marketing. Right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But what? Like what? Genius is it? Yeah, that takes [00:45:50] water.

Shameek Popat: And makes.

Payman Langroudi: Sense and makes it so cool. It’s just amazing. It [00:45:55] blows me away every time. And by the way, I do like the, like I would buy. I buy it as long as I pay more for living [00:46:00] by mistake. Yeah. Um, but belts, [00:46:05] you know, like Hermes, you know, they’ve managed to make a piece of leather like [00:46:10] that. Expensive. I, I don’t buy that stuff. Yeah, but but I, I do [00:46:15] like.

Shameek Popat: Figure.

Payman Langroudi: It. Yeah. I think bloody hell. Well done. And then as far as execution [00:46:20] in marketing Red bull. I mean, I don’t like the product. [00:46:25] I like it on the one once a year where I need it. Right. But but the [00:46:30] execution.

Shameek Popat: But they were so clever the way.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the product doesn’t feature in any of the [00:46:35] content at all. Yeah.

Shameek Popat: No no no, no. It’s beautiful. They were clever with how they, you know, the whole story behind [00:46:40] it. Yeah. The Red bull and stuff. They went with the skateboarders, the, uh, Snowboarders [00:46:45] and the mountain bikers. And you know, all the super [00:46:50] cool fringe sports. But they’re such a huge cult following and some things. Yeah. [00:46:55] And they marketed it through them. And that just worked. And, you know. Yeah, it gives you wings. [00:47:00] Yeah. Love it. Great tagline.

Payman Langroudi: And in that category food and beverage a nightmare category [00:47:05] to to like break. Coca-cola. Oh a can one third the size four times [00:47:10] the price of whatever it was that actually made you high. Yeah. And you know, like that. [00:47:15] That’s crazy. What they managed to pull off. Right.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. That’s so clever, isn’t it? You [00:47:20] know, marketing is just such a an amazing feel. You know, you get the right. [00:47:25] I mean, it just comes back to the ideas and stuff. And now whether I will change that [00:47:30] and replace these clever people with ideas and stuff because, you know, [00:47:35] there’s so, you know, you put it into ChatGPT for some ideas and stuff and you’ll get pages [00:47:40] of it. And some of it is like, oh shit, I really like that tagline. Yeah, that’s really, really good. [00:47:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But you know, it comes back to then once the whole planet is fully on [00:47:50] it, then it’s just it’s like the internet itself. It’s like you’ve [00:47:55] got much more scope for doing things and way more competition. [00:48:00] Way, way more competition than anyone from a bedroom can start a [00:48:05] brand. Yeah, like they could they could do it with, like a website in one day, an app [00:48:10] in two days here, if you remember what it used to take to make it. App. Right. Um, [00:48:15] product. They could drop ship logos, names, all [00:48:20] that stuff is so doable overnight. You know.

Shameek Popat: It’s like, did you hear the vintage story? [00:48:25] No. You’re not selling.

Payman Langroudi: When you sell your clothes.

Shameek Popat: Yeah, yeah. That’s that. I [00:48:30] think it started with a girl who was moving and she didn’t have wardrobe space in her new place, [00:48:35] uh, Lithuania or somewhere like that. I can’t remember where she’s from. Um, [00:48:40] and she didn’t have a wardrobe space, So she thought quite a few clothes. And you know, she [00:48:45] had a good fashion sense and stuff. Um, maybe I’ll just sell them, uh, online and stuff. And she [00:48:50] was at a party, and she met a tech guy there that she got on with and stuff, and she pitched the [00:48:55] idea saying, oh, can you just do a little website for me to sell these clothes? And [00:49:00] the guy goes, yeah, absolutely. And stuff. And, you know, they went around saying, well, would you buy these clothes and stuff? And people said, [00:49:05] yes. Set up a website. Yeah. I think within two weeks she sold out. And [00:49:10] then the whole thing snowballed from that. And I think it’s a $4 billion [00:49:15] company now.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, was, you know, do you know Zeba from Ru [00:49:20] Dental?

Shameek Popat: Uh, yes, I’ve heard I obviously I know ru Dental. [00:49:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shameek Popat: Because Richard Richard works there doesn’t he used to be Richard feeling.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So maybe, [00:49:30] um, but, you know, in Cardiff. Um. Anyway ru Dental Zabrze. [00:49:35] Um, dad and uncle have, like, I don’t know [00:49:40] whether it’s like, it’s one of the biggest, um, chains of, um, care [00:49:45] homes in Europe.

Shameek Popat: Oh, wow.

Payman Langroudi: Like, they went from 600 [00:49:50] to 1000 200 in 1 deal. You know, like a huge, huge, [00:49:55] huge business. And. But she was telling me that, you know, they all used to live in the same flat above the [00:50:00] the shop, the dry cleaner or whatever. Yeah. Um, but [00:50:05] then I was telling someone else. That’s right. And he said, well, yeah, every story starts with [00:50:10] a nothing situation unless it’s some sort of inheritance. Right. [00:50:15] Every single story starts, you know, Steve Jobs was in his garage playing. [00:50:20] It’s an interesting thing, isn’t it?

Shameek Popat: We all have a story, right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:50:25]

Shameek Popat: Payman and sham started in a single surgery industry. [00:50:30]

Payman Langroudi: We’ll talk about disruptive later. Yeah. [00:50:35] Where were you born?

Shameek Popat: I was born in Kampala, Uganda. Oh, Really? [00:50:40]

Payman Langroudi: Master race.

Shameek Popat: And master.

Payman Langroudi: Race?

Shameek Popat: Oh, [00:50:45] no. What were you saying? You know, I. Mean. [00:50:50] Yeah. Yeah. So the whole Idi Amin thing happened, and, [00:50:55] um, obviously we all. We had, like, a month to leave, you [00:51:00] know? Um, we had a thriving business house, everything kind of tea state. We [00:51:05] had a tea state estate.

Payman Langroudi: As in land. The tea plantation we had in Iran, too.

Shameek Popat: What did [00:51:10] you see? Amazing.

Shameek Popat: Um, and then most [00:51:15] of the family, uh, because obviously, uh, the Ugandan Asians, [00:51:20] they were all bought by the British to build the railways and stuff. So they all had British overseas passports. [00:51:25] So most of our family came to the UK. Uh, but the family just thought [00:51:30] that we should have some presence in India. So my father, being the eldest brother, got sent to [00:51:35] India, and my brother was born in India, and I was only a baby. So I spent [00:51:40] my childhood in Gujarat. Baroda, Gujarat. Uh, so I grew up [00:51:45] there.

Payman Langroudi: To what.

Shameek Popat: Age?

Shameek Popat: Until the age of 13.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Shameek Popat: And then, you know, I [00:51:50] was actually literally just telling this story the other day. I think this is probably my biggest [00:51:55] sliding door moment, I think. Um, [00:52:00] we went to Dehradun. I don’t know if you’ve heard of Dehradun in India. It’s [00:52:05] up in the north and it has like these amazing private schools there. Uh, [00:52:10] they’re like Harrow Eton type.

Shameek Popat: Things.

Shameek Popat: And stuff, you know. And so we went [00:52:15] to see it, and it’s the first time I’ve been that high, and I was above clouds and I was like, awed by it. The [00:52:20] school was amazing. So the choice was between us going there or coming to [00:52:25] the UK for education for the next. Because look in India, right. It’s [00:52:30] survival of the fittest. There’s like 60 people in a class. And you know, [00:52:35] I was probably a medium student there and stuff. Then, you know, they had [00:52:40] to choose. They said, oh, we can’t leave you to study there and stuff. We want you either to send you there or [00:52:45] go to the UK. And then we chose UK in the end because, you know, everyone was family was here when [00:52:50] you were in India and stuff. Studying in the UK was also like a great [00:52:55] thing, something unusual. Status and my cousins, cousins, brothers were all here who we [00:53:00] were really great friends with. Um, so we thought, okay, so um, we got [00:53:05] sent to Stockport, Manchester to live with my uncle and [00:53:10] aunt.

Payman Langroudi: What were your parents still in India?

Shameek Popat: Still India? Because we had we had a, um, a factory [00:53:15] there. Yeah. Um, bizarrely, actually making plastic bags for [00:53:20] fertiliser.

Payman Langroudi: Were they quite well to do in India?

Shameek Popat: Um, they [00:53:25] were, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The Indian.

Shameek Popat: Standard.

Shameek Popat: Indian standard. They were. We had a good life.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So [00:53:30] you came to Stockport.

Shameek Popat: Stockport? Yeah. So I went to Stockport Grammar And [00:53:35] I lived with my uncle and aunt who were, you know, they were pretty young as well. They [00:53:40] were in their 30s. So it was just like amazing that they took these two boys from India. And, [00:53:45] um, they didn’t have kids at that point themselves. Um, so they’re like my second parents, [00:53:50] and I owe a lot to them. Uh, and he’s he he was a dentist, hence [00:53:55] the influence. So that’s how I and my brother became dentists, [00:54:00] because we saw that he enjoyed his job. He had a good life. [00:54:05] Um, and, you know, at that stage, you probably heard [00:54:10] this from others. You literally had 3 or 4 choices. You either were going to become a doctor, [00:54:15] dentist, uh, accountant or uh, possibly, uh, [00:54:20] law. There were secondary ones like, you know, you could do pharmacy or or. Yeah. [00:54:25] That’s it. But literally to to us the choice was literally the choice was [00:54:30] medicine, dentistry, accountancy.

Payman Langroudi: Your daughters must have [00:54:35] come to you. Or. Well, there was a time where you could have talked to them.

Shameek Popat: Influence?

Payman Langroudi: No. Did [00:54:40] you say anything to them?

Shameek Popat: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know what? Did you tell them to become dentists?

Shameek Popat: No, no. So [00:54:45] while I didn’t encourage or discourage it. None of them. I have three kids. [00:54:50] I have twin girls and a boy. And none of them wanted. None of them [00:54:55] wanted to do it.

Payman Langroudi: Did you feel like. Did you feel like you failed somehow? No.

Shameek Popat: No I didn’t. [00:55:00] Actually, I really didn’t. Um, I’d rather they do something that they’re happy with [00:55:05] that they want to do. And dentistry is hard. So I wasn’t that [00:55:10] displeased.

Payman Langroudi: They didn’t know that hard, man.

Shameek Popat: It’s hard.

Payman Langroudi: I think it is [00:55:15] hard. But somehow.

Shameek Popat: I think it’s more difficult now than when it was when we did.

Payman Langroudi: It.

Shameek Popat: Maybe. [00:55:20] All right.

Payman Langroudi: So what did your kids end up studying and doing?

Shameek Popat: All three of them are doing economics. [00:55:25]

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Shameek Popat: They’re all doing economics. Oh, I.

Payman Langroudi: See.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. Um, [00:55:30] one of them at the moment is in Madrid doing a year out.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent. [00:55:35]

Shameek Popat: So we got to go and pick her up next week. Actually, she’s just had the time of her life. [00:55:40] The other one just finished. She just did her final exams and she’s already got a job [00:55:45] with Deloitte starting from September. Such an internship with them. And they’ve offered [00:55:50] it. And my son has just started first year. Well, Birmingham. So [00:55:55] I’ve got two in Birmingham, one in Nottingham.

Payman Langroudi: And Empty Nest now.

Shameek Popat: So yeah. [00:56:00] Yeah it’s it’s it’s tough.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not redefining [00:56:05] yourself. Right. You know that anymore.

Shameek Popat: Right. But you know what. What’s been what’s been quite funny [00:56:10] and stuff. I’m actually finding that my nice my wife is so much nicer to me now that we don’t have the kids. [00:56:15] She’s like, looking after me so much better. We were just telling the [00:56:20] kids you guys were the problems, right? This is why we were. No, you know, it was. She was always bad [00:56:25] cop. I’m good cop. So. Me too. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Me too, me too. Um. [00:56:30] Three kids is an achievement that’s difficult. Difficult in Britain.

Shameek Popat: Um, [00:56:35] well, yeah, we had twins, so.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shameek Popat: Even harder was.

Payman Langroudi: Even.

Shameek Popat: Harder. Yeah. Which is [00:56:40] why when we had our son, uh, we was like, oh, what are these parents with single child complaining about? This is so [00:56:45] easy.

Payman Langroudi: Take me back to the story, then. Okay.

Shameek Popat: Oh, yeah. Going back.

Payman Langroudi: So, yeah, [00:56:50] we both became dentists.

Shameek Popat: We both became dentists. Did you study, um, at Guy’s Hospital?

Payman Langroudi: Where did he study [00:56:55] things?

Shameek Popat: This is when they were separate.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Is he older than you?

Shameek Popat: He’s younger than me. Younger, [00:57:00] though. Yeah. Most people think he’s older than me. He’s. He’s an orthodontist. [00:57:05] Okay, so he’s an orthodontist. Um, but the funny thing was, while [00:57:10] my brother and I both became dentists, my uncle, who [00:57:15] had two sons who are like, we’re very close to you as well. And, you know, because we sort of grew [00:57:20] up, we were doing their nappies and looking after them, and they’re like great friends of ours, as well as [00:57:25] cousin brothers. They wanted nothing to do with dentistry. Once become a pilot [00:57:30] with British Airways and the others are an actuary with Deloitte.

Payman Langroudi: Oh great job. [00:57:35] So my my brother wants to become an actuary. My parents made him become a doctor. He still complains about [00:57:40] it. He still complains. So go tell me about your dental school experience. Were you the life of the [00:57:45] party, or was this a. Is this a later incarnation of.

Shameek Popat: Oh, you know what? I [00:57:50] was always. Yeah, I was always into fun. So. Yeah, I was always, always into trouble. [00:57:55] Um, yeah. I used to have to go every week to see the vice principal to make sure [00:58:00] that I turned up. Um, no, I was.

Payman Langroudi: Were you with Nissan? Yes. [00:58:05] Anyone else I knew?

Shameek Popat: Um, who else would you know?

Payman Langroudi: Uh, my brother around that time was [00:58:10] in Geist, but as a medic.

Shameek Popat: Oh, okay. Okay. Okay, okay.

Payman Langroudi: Where were you?

Shameek Popat: 1993?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:58:15] he left in 94.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. So, um. Great crowd, you know? [00:58:20] Have you Banerjee? Of course. Yeah. So Abhi was with me.

Payman Langroudi: As a student.

Shameek Popat: Yeah, we [00:58:25] were together.

Payman Langroudi: You’re kidding.

Shameek Popat: No, no no, no. We always we always joke about it. We were just reminiscing [00:58:30] about it all at the industry showcase, actually.

Payman Langroudi: Or have we never left? He stayed [00:58:35] on and all day long.

Shameek Popat: But you know what? We always knew he was. He was.

Payman Langroudi: What was? He was a very [00:58:40] clever guy.

Shameek Popat: Very clever. You always knew he was going to be marked for greatness. Uh, [00:58:45] always, always dedicated, always the top. But also [00:58:50] like to have fun, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Very kind. Very kind guy. Yeah. I really like.

Shameek Popat: Having. No, no, he’s a really, really cool guy. [00:58:55]

Payman Langroudi: I.

Shameek Popat: Really like. So we had fun. Um, I was always in trouble. [00:59:00] But did you see the game was. Yeah, I always passed. [00:59:05] Um. Did enough. Did enough to pass. Um. Probably [00:59:10] wasn’t the best student. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s tough, man. It’s tough for you to grow up.

Shameek Popat: Enjoy your mindset. [00:59:15] Change a lot later.

Payman Langroudi: Just quickly. Did your parents [00:59:20] never come to the UK?

Shameek Popat: No. No. So they would come to visit? Obviously.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, but they never came.

Shameek Popat: And then they came because [00:59:25] they missed us too much, so they sold everything.

Payman Langroudi: Were you already university by this?

Shameek Popat: So literally that’s what happened. So they [00:59:30] came to Manchester.

Payman Langroudi: And.

Shameek Popat: You left and I left. So [00:59:35] they got some time with my brother, but not with me. But then they obviously followed [00:59:40] us down to London as well.

Payman Langroudi: And your brother’s not involved in the dental world and the way that you [00:59:45] are or is he.

Shameek Popat: No not not not in because. Well, it’s orthodontists [00:59:50] are a different breed. They have their own thing. Right. They, they don’t really socialise with the general dentists. Um, [00:59:55] so they have their own thing. Um, and my brother is quite different to me. [01:00:00]

Payman Langroudi: Uh, yeah.

Shameek Popat: It’s just that way. Yeah. He’s, he’s a lot more serious. Um, [01:00:05] but a really cool guy as well. And. Yeah, we’re quite close.

Payman Langroudi: And did you think you were going to open [01:00:10] a practice always, like, was that like, in your head from the beginning?

Shameek Popat: Yeah, I think that, you know.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [01:00:15] what everyone did.

Shameek Popat: That’s what everyone did. Yeah. It was just expected. It was just trying to find the right practice. And [01:00:20] the right practice in the right area came up and [01:00:25] it was just fate. And, you know, I bought the practice. I bought a [01:00:30] house there. I mean, those early years, you know. Now you don’t think about it. Uh. [01:00:35] Um. Because now you think about it. How did I manage it? All right. [01:00:40] Because in those early years, I bought this new practice, [01:00:45] you know, which was a, like, a rundown two surgery practice, but in a beautiful [01:00:50] area. But it was a Chorleywood, Chorleywood white middle class, [01:00:55] by the way. Chorleywood was the happiest village in the UK. Probably because of the smiles I created. [01:01:00] I joke about that. Um, I bought that, uh, practice, [01:01:05] um, which was, I think, uh, January 2002. Then, [01:01:10] uh, we found out we were expecting twins, so we thought we [01:01:15] were in a beautiful little, uh, three bedroom semi-detached place on the river in Croxley, which [01:01:20] was beautiful, but we thought we needed something bigger. So I bought a house, so then. But it needed to [01:01:25] be redone. Then we bought a second practice in 2003. So I had two [01:01:30] practices a new house, expecting twins, and then my wife felt [01:01:35] quite ill having the babies and stuff, and I was doing it all. And [01:01:40] I remember once, you know, going to because and the twins were eight weeks early, so they were in the neonatal [01:01:45] unit. So I still remember doing a hard day’s work driving [01:01:50] to the UCL hospital, and I had to stop on the M1 layby just just to [01:01:55] sleep because I hadn’t slept much at all. Yeah. Doing it all. Um, [01:02:00] but in those days, you just got on with it. You’re like, you know, you were young, [01:02:05] full of energy, and you thought that was the norm. It was. It was a norm. [01:02:10] And it is. But now I think I would find it so much more difficult.

Payman Langroudi: To pull it off now. But but but you see [01:02:15] them now. I mean, you see, I don’t know, Simon. Uh, they’re doing all the things they’re doing. [01:02:20] And there’s young children. Yeah. And it makes you forget. You forget what it is. But then. But then I think you’ll agree [01:02:25] with me. As they get older, the problems are different as well, right? You’ve got different things to worry about. Still [01:02:30] worried. Right?

Shameek Popat: No, absolutely. You know, it never gets easier. No. Each year, I always tell this [01:02:35] story that one of the best nights of my life is [01:02:40] New Year’s Eve. Because we have fun, family, always, you know, [01:02:45] partying, having free drinks, enjoying it, celebrating the year that’s [01:02:50] gone. Mhm. And the worst day of my life is New Year’s Day because [01:02:55] it’s a new year. You get the blues. You always want to [01:03:00] set the bar higher. And you think shit I’ve got to start all over again. [01:03:05] And I got to make it better. How am I going to do it? And I get the blues really badly [01:03:10] for that first week actually, because I always want to set the bar higher.

Payman Langroudi: Nice [01:03:15] that you’re setting the bar, though. Not everyone does. No, no, I find some years I [01:03:20] do some things I don’t. Some. Some years I don’t talk about it to myself at this [01:03:25] point.

Shameek Popat: No, I was I think maybe now I’ve come to.

Payman Langroudi: A kind of a discipline.

Shameek Popat: Thing. Yeah. [01:03:30]

Payman Langroudi: To do it. Yeah. Because it’s easy, you know, you’re off. It’s easy not to think about anything and, [01:03:35] you know, watch a movie. It’s easier to do that.

Shameek Popat: It’s so much easier to do that. You’re right.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s important [01:03:40] to have the discipline to, to to at least once a year.

Shameek Popat: Think I’m one of those that I [01:03:45] need. I need tasks and goals to work and do things. [01:03:50] If I don’t have it, then yeah, it’s easy to get into the lazy side and just let life drift past. [01:03:55]

Payman Langroudi: As a dentist, you got into the whole choice program [01:04:00] and you know, like heading for excellence, clinical clinical excellence, right? [01:04:05] Um, was it that was the practice, one of those practices, or did you [01:04:10] have to turn it into that practice?

Shameek Popat: No, no, I had to turn it into that practice.

Payman Langroudi: What was what was it like a [01:04:15] just a regular general.

Shameek Popat: Regular, practice.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so I [01:04:20] remember seeing you at all the FMC events. Rosenthal. All the time around that time. Um, [01:04:25] so.

Shameek Popat: That.

Payman Langroudi: Education was a huge.

Shameek Popat: Huge thing. Yeah, I think that’s where it all [01:04:30] changed, actually, because in my younger days and stuff and everything, I thought. [01:04:35] And that was the early days, right? I thought being a good dentist, [01:04:40] what definition of a good dentist was one that then caused pain to your patients, [01:04:45] was liked by the patients and had a full diary? Yeah, that was [01:04:50] the criteria basically, of being a good dentist, actually.

Payman Langroudi: Great. The easy low hanging fruit man. [01:04:55] Important. That’s important stuff.

Shameek Popat: Tell, tell. Then I started, you know, [01:05:00] um, thinking, you know, I got this is getting a little boring. You know, I’m better than this, and [01:05:05] I, I enjoy what I do, and I have a great patient base. And, [01:05:10] you know, you always want to educate yourself and develop yourself and stuff. And I started going to [01:05:15] these courses and you know did the Larry Rosenthal and suddenly shit. There’s more [01:05:20] to dentistry than just drill Phil and Bill thing. You know, there’s line angles, [01:05:25] ginger wills. Then it’s buccal corridors. You know, cosmetic [01:05:30] dentistry and, you know, whitening. You know, seeing you guys do your things and things. [01:05:35] And I was like, wow, there’s a lot more to dentistry. But, um, [01:05:40] I was also getting into occlusion at that stage. So I was [01:05:45] one of the clever ones that sort of, well, without sounding immodest and stuff, thinking, okay, [01:05:50] if I’m going to do this cosmetic work, I need to make sure that it fits well, [01:05:55] it lasts well, and the bite is correct, right? Because I don’t want things to fail. So [01:06:00] again, you know, like my research and stuff, I did a whole big research thing and stuff [01:06:05] and there were five options that I had John Frank [01:06:10] spear, Dawson LV or panky LVI. [01:06:15] I just didn’t like the philosophy. You just end up with long teeth panky. [01:06:20] I don’t know, it just didn’t resonate with me. Uh, which left [01:06:25] the other three doors, and I’d done a lot of doors and I liked it, but I just didn’t like the fact that everything [01:06:30] lived and died in CR, which I didn’t believe in that concept. Uh, so which left [01:06:35] Frank Speare and John Cleese, who are both admired, and I actually met my [01:06:40] other mentor, Ken Harris, at actually, Ian Buckley’s practice through a [01:06:45] Dawson course.

Payman Langroudi: Was also in UK.

Shameek Popat: And he’d just come back from doing quiz. Yeah, and he [01:06:50] recommended it highly. And that was my tipping point to do quiz. Um, and yeah, [01:06:55] 2006 I went for the first time to John Cleese and yeah, [01:07:00] uh, I think that was the single most important thing [01:07:05] that I’ve done in my dental career. John has changed. How I practice [01:07:10] dentistry, changed my life. So, yeah, I a lot to that, man.

Payman Langroudi: So could [01:07:15] you put it in in simple terms, right. What you [01:07:20] felt the first time you went there? And also when you say something as massive as [01:07:25] you changed the way I practice, you know, like were you. Is it as is as obvious as [01:07:30] you’re now looking for mouth rather than quadrant? Is that like, you know, absolutely. Good. Like [01:07:35] you could deliver full mouth his whole.

Shameek Popat: You know, let me just say when [01:07:40] I was apprehensive, okay? I mean, this is like, I think the first time, um, I’d gone [01:07:45] to the US after obviously nine over 11 as well. Yeah, yeah. Um, going to Seattle. So I was a little bit apprehensive. [01:07:50]

Payman Langroudi: The great town.

Shameek Popat: Yeah, yeah, I’ll tell you the funniest story as [01:07:55] well. So literally the first time I went to staff, I went, you know, to immigration and stuff and, um, [01:08:00] get the passport in and stuff. And he looks at the photo and looks at it, looks at the photo [01:08:05] and stuff and says, this doesn’t look like you. I shot my pants. I was like, [01:08:10] oh shit, what’s going to happen. And I said really? And he was in that. Just kidding. [01:08:15]

Payman Langroudi: It’s 911, I remember. I used to get taken to secondary for questioning. [01:08:20]

Shameek Popat: But then when I, when I went to, um, the [01:08:25] quiz centre, you experienced the service level. [01:08:30] Nothing. Nothing that was in the UK like that and stuff, you know. Beautiful. [01:08:35] There’s your own warmers. Light. You know, you go to that. There’s [01:08:40] a fridge with every drink, every snack that you could want. They try and find out what [01:08:45] you like and try and get it for you. Uh, I remember when Tarik went and stuff. They especially got [01:08:50] in Ion Brew for him as well. You know, it was just unbelievable. And then the [01:08:55] teaching, the products, the whole manual, the whole traffic light system of [01:09:00] how to gauge patients and things. Um, you know, everything made [01:09:05] sense. It had a point and it meant how you could do dentistry [01:09:10] better.

Payman Langroudi: And some people worry that they’re not good enough. Does that? Do they start [01:09:15] at the beginning and anyone can understand?

Shameek Popat: Well, I don’t think, um, [01:09:20] question choice is something that you can start in the first five years of your career. [01:09:25] Oh, really? Yeah. I think you need to wait a little bit. Just a variety of [01:09:30] reasons. One, the level is quite high.

Payman Langroudi: From the beginning.

Shameek Popat: Like the.

Payman Langroudi: Beginning. It starts like a basic [01:09:35] level.

Shameek Popat: Yeah, yeah, you get it. But you can. But also I think the main [01:09:40] thing is what have you learn. Because you’re [01:09:45] probably an associate there, right. You’re not going to be able to implement it. And, and the [01:09:50] principal practice because he doesn’t understand it. He’s not going to suddenly want to change this whole practice because he’s associate [01:09:55] has gone on one course and wants to buy this, do this, change the whole thing. It’s just never going to happen. But [01:10:00] if you’ve been there for a little while, you’ve got the experience. Your principal understands you, trust [01:10:05] you. And then when you come to him saying, this is what I want to do. He’ll be more on [01:10:10] board.

Payman Langroudi: Give me an example of that. Like, what are we talking? Equipment. Articulators. This was the [01:10:15] way.

Shameek Popat: I should change my whole medical questionnaire. Uh. Uh, I [01:10:20] changed the equipment. Um, I changed the way how I approach patients and [01:10:25] and actually examine them, change my treatment plans. The [01:10:30] whole. The way you practice dentistry changes. You don’t have [01:10:35] to. I mean, I have to be admitted because of the practices. And I was, you know, I didn’t go in feet first and stuff. [01:10:40] I did it so that, you know, most of the patients, you just would treat it as normal and stuff. [01:10:45] But then when the right cases came, you would do the whole shebang.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:10:50] do you recognise that some people say, oh, people who do these things end up over treating. Have [01:10:55] you ever heard that before? Am I making that up? Am I making this? I mean, maybe I’m making that [01:11:00] up in my own head.

Shameek Popat: No, no, not with me.

Payman Langroudi: Just generally, American training makes you more interventionist. [01:11:05]

Shameek Popat: That’s more what you’re talking cosmetic stuff and veneers and stuff, of course, has never been about veneers. [01:11:10]

Payman Langroudi: So you don’t think it’s like.

Shameek Popat: The case is about.

Payman Langroudi: Collapsed bite situation where you think. [01:11:15]

Shameek Popat: No.

Payman Langroudi: Treated early.

Shameek Popat: You’re actually treating collapsed bites. You’re not creating them, right?

Payman Langroudi: No, I know, I know.

Shameek Popat: But so he’s [01:11:20] he’s he’s never and I and then the way it is is it’s broken into nine modules [01:11:25] right. Treatment planning. Occlusion one. Biomechanics. Perio restorative interface. [01:11:30]

Payman Langroudi: Teaching. He’s a great teacher. Does he teach at all? No. This is simple.

Shameek Popat: People know most [01:11:35] of it’s him. Most of it’s him. He’s got a few other people coming in now that’s helping him. [01:11:40] Yeah. Um, and I’m actually really, really gutted that this [01:11:45] July is probably one of the last symposiums. You can only get to go [01:11:50] to a symposium after you’ve graduated. Um, so you have to do all nine modules [01:11:55] before you’re allowed to go. Um, and it’s probably the last one, [01:12:00] and I can’t go. My daughter’s graduating, so obviously that’s why you can’t make it. Yeah, I can’t make it. So [01:12:05] it’s going to be a big FOMO.

Payman Langroudi: How does it take to graduate?

Shameek Popat: It [01:12:10] depends. There are nine modules. Uh, three days each. Yeah, a [01:12:15] big, big investment as well. How much? Um, they’re about $5,000 [01:12:20] per three days. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well, that.

Shameek Popat: Was. Yeah. But then I also [01:12:25] did all these, like, junk courses, and then I’ve gone back to mentor, go to symposium. [01:12:30]

Payman Langroudi: So when you say mentor to teach.

Shameek Popat: Yes. So he has mentors at [01:12:35] the back. So once you graduate, uh, after one year, um, you can do an exam. [01:12:40] Uh, there’s an MCQ exam and then there is a case presentation. So you’ve got to treat a [01:12:45] patient for like a big nice rehab. And then you go to present and you get Viva donate. And [01:12:50] then you become a mentor. And then after you’ve mentored a few times, you can also [01:12:55] become a clinical instructor.

Payman Langroudi: And is there like homework? Like, do you have to like after [01:13:00] the three days, do you have to go back and treat a number of cases before you’re allowed to come back. No no [01:13:05] no. Good, good. That would have been too much.

Shameek Popat: That would have [01:13:10] been too much. No no no, no, there isn’t that way. But yeah, it was a life [01:13:15] changing.

Payman Langroudi: Your advice to anyone who wants to do. Let’s call it private dentistry is do something like [01:13:20] that. Absolutely.

Shameek Popat: And without doubt. Yeah. Without doubt. I mean, we [01:13:25] have great educators here as well and stuff, but but, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Learn full mouth. [01:13:30] You’re saying.

Shameek Popat: Yeah, for me, you know, I actually really I was just talking to a young dentist [01:13:35] that I feel for them that they may never get to experience John Kreuz, [01:13:40] Frank Speer, you know, obviously Pete Dawson’s passed away now, so they’ll never hear him speak. These [01:13:45] are giants, you know. Um, that I feel privileged [01:13:50] to have learned from.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but, [01:13:55] you know, there are giants in every era. You know, it’s one of those things that you only know what you know [01:14:00] from when you became active.

Shameek Popat: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly right. So then this practice. [01:14:05] Did it, like, grow in terms of, like, patient numbers, dentist numbers, staff [01:14:10] numbers?

Shameek Popat: Yeah. Just organically. Honestly, you know what? Never did any advertising. It was just word of mouth. [01:14:15]

Payman Langroudi: Uh, but now the treatment was, like, more comprehensive, right?

Shameek Popat: For the for the patients. [01:14:20] I never marketed it. I never if the patient needed it or they were recommended or they [01:14:25] were offered, then. Yes. Um, but I was never [01:14:30] I was, you know, I had a really nice life, really good practice, really [01:14:35] busy. I didn’t, I, you know, I wasn’t chasing, uh, full mouth rehabs [01:14:40] or cosmetic case. Nothing like that. You know, if they came, I would treat them. If they didn’t, I’ll be happy [01:14:45] doing single tooth dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the most lovely way of doing dentistry is to just do the [01:14:50] right thing and just trust the process, you know? Like, it really is. Like, we [01:14:55] often think about this with, um, products. Like, if I, if I want to bring out a new product I have to worry [01:15:00] about. Can I sell it to the dentist? Yeah, but actually, [01:15:05] the real worry is can the dentists sell it to the patient? And because we’re in [01:15:10] this transactional situation of the word sell here, I don’t mean sell. I [01:15:15] mean, you know, you how many years were you in that practice?

Shameek Popat: Oh, I’m 23 [01:15:20] years.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well, you’ve been 23 years in a community where people come to you [01:15:25] and visit you and you. The way it ends up is you end up sort of keeping [01:15:30] more people like yourself. They refer people like yourself to you, and it becomes a [01:15:35] family setting you a pillar of that community. It’s not about selling anything to them. It’s about [01:15:40] doing the right thing for them. You know, like feeling hand on heart, you’re doing the right thing. [01:15:45] You know, in the in the transactional conversation sometimes [01:15:50] forget that that’s, you know, the way that most practices are. Right? Someone who’s in a community wants to do [01:15:55] the right thing for us patients. You know, that’s that’s what it is. That’s what’s going on.

Shameek Popat: So that, you know, that [01:16:00] was. I did I did have the sweet spot there and stuff. And obviously, you know, you think you always [01:16:05] got, oh you’re in the right area in the right place and stuff. But you know what? It’s like the Tiger Woods thing. The more I practice, the [01:16:10] easier it gets. That’s what it was. It’s you. You make the practice how you want it to be. [01:16:15] And my team, even though I’ve sold my practice now. [01:16:20]

Payman Langroudi: How many years.

Shameek Popat: Ago? It’s four and a half years ago now. Oh, really? Yeah. This is the fifth [01:16:25] year.

Payman Langroudi: Um, sorry about that.

Shameek Popat: So I’ll just finish what [01:16:30] I’m saying.

Payman Langroudi: Sure.

Shameek Popat: The team members that are there, majority of them, [01:16:35] they’re all they’re 15 years plus.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Shameek Popat: They’re all [01:16:40] there. You know.

Payman Langroudi: That says.

Shameek Popat: A lot. Yeah, I’m a periodontist. In that 20 years. [01:16:45] My hygienist, this was her first job. Then when she started, when she [01:16:50] qualified. And she’s still here 17, 18 years later. Um, well, my receptionist. [01:16:55] Yeah. Uh, still been there.

Payman Langroudi: So being the good [01:17:00] cop at home with your with your kids. Are you the good cop at work with your team as well? And is [01:17:05] there a bad cop?

Shameek Popat: No, I think that’s part of the problem.

Payman Langroudi: You need both, right?

Shameek Popat: And [01:17:10] you need both. Yeah, but we were always good cop. Um, it was an easygoing practice. [01:17:15] Uh, very easygoing practice.

Payman Langroudi: Dentistry lets you write. Then in dentistry, you can. You [01:17:20] can send your kids to private school, go on your holidays per year, and not [01:17:25] be 100% on top of everything. Because it’s it’s [01:17:30] it’s. That’s what I’m saying to you when I say you say it’s hard. I’m saying it’s in that way it’s easy. You know why [01:17:35] your parents were pushing you into it, you know, so that even if things went wrong, you’d be okay. Kind [01:17:40] of, kind of kind of thing.

Shameek Popat: Because my brother wanted, really wanted to be a doctor. But they.

Payman Langroudi: Different. [01:17:45]

Shameek Popat: They they made him become a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Shameek Popat: It’s like it’s got to be an easier, better life. [01:17:50]

Payman Langroudi: I do that, I do that for my kids. My brother’s a doctor. I told you, it’s hard. It’s hard [01:17:55] medicine. It’s is hard, man. Especially here, especially here. So as you see that. Have [01:18:00] you seen those TikToks where they have like anaesthetist one year out of, uh, you know, anaesthetic [01:18:05] school in America and it goes, what are you earning is like, yeah. 1.3 was like, you [01:18:10] know, okay. If you’re if they’re paying dollars like that okay. So it makes.

Shameek Popat: Sense. You’re [01:18:15] right here. It’s yeah. It’s it’s like a hard life almost.

Payman Langroudi: They rely.

[TRANSITION]: On the.

Shameek Popat: Doctors I meet now [01:18:20] that have actually left and they’re doing other things. They’re doing other.

Payman Langroudi: Business relies on the goodwill [01:18:25] of the doctors. The nurses? Yeah. The goodwill of those people is holding [01:18:30] the system up.

Shameek Popat: And, you know, nursing, I think, is still one of the hardest jobs ever. [01:18:35] I did that.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, real nursing. Well.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. Real nursing while I was a dental [01:18:40] student, uh, in the summers, just just to pay off my, uh, nursing inside [01:18:45] a.

Payman Langroudi: Nurse.

Shameek Popat: Yeah, in different hospitals, all of them and stuff. And some of the stories I’ll tell [01:18:50] you. And I would come back absolutely exhausted because, you know, a few [01:18:55] times I actually I did the psychology awards and they, they [01:19:00] mentally and physically exhausting. And I learned a newfound respect for [01:19:05] them.

Payman Langroudi: Social work. Yeah. Imagine you’re a social worker, dude. You have to go into people’s [01:19:10] houses and, and and sometimes assess whether I need to remove the kids from this [01:19:15] house because of abuse or whatever, and still get paid nothing. And [01:19:20] every time something goes wrong, they will blame social workers for.

Shameek Popat: Something.

Payman Langroudi: Like something went [01:19:25] wrong. You know, um.

Shameek Popat: You know, that’s, you know, there’s a blame culture going on at the moment [01:19:30] everywhere. Everyone wants to blame someone.

Payman Langroudi: Uk I find this into it. [01:19:35] Into it over the years. You know, there have been the single moms, uh, [01:19:40] and then, you know, now we’ve got the immigrants and are the people who are on the [01:19:45] dole. You know, people the UK likes to the media and the UK likes to blame. [01:19:50] And then and then the, the, the politicians realise that and then jump onto [01:19:55] one of the blame bits. I’m not sure if it’s in other countries the same, you know. Probably. [01:20:00]

Shameek Popat: Probably because to be grass is never greener. Grass [01:20:05] is never, never, never greener.

Payman Langroudi: What about you?

Payman Langroudi: What about your interest in whisky and gin? [01:20:10]

Shameek Popat: So obviously I’m Indian, so I think [01:20:15] whisky is in my blood. So yeah, I’ve always. Yeah, I think it came from [01:20:20] my father because, you know, in India and stuff in the [01:20:25] evenings, you know, they would they would get the Black Label out with soda and how. Whisky. [01:20:30] So there was all this fascination with whisky and I just. Yeah, I just fell [01:20:35] in love with it. Um, the water of life. And [01:20:40] so we’ve done, I don’t know, during Covid, we did tastings for [01:20:45] gin and whisky. I hosted some nice tastings. Yeah. I, uh, I’ve set up a [01:20:50] Facebook group for the dentistry Whisky Appreciation [01:20:55] Society, uh, with full of dentists who love whisky, which is quite a big group now with [01:21:00] Mike Gow, who’s another whisky aficionado. And, um, I [01:21:05] ended up well, you know, I always wanted to have my own course of whisky [01:21:10] and stuff. So, you know, I thought, I’ll get a few friends together and we’ll we’ll just get a cask and stuff. And the whole thing [01:21:15] then snowballed. And now we have these three carts, 650l [01:21:20] with 58 dentists involved in it, which is all. It’s just been eight years [01:21:25] now, so it’s ready to bottle. So I’m just designing the label and the bottle and stuff.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:21:30] such a creative man.

Shameek Popat: And you know, I’ve done the tastings for it. So it’s already I’m just [01:21:35] going to get it all done now. But it’s time. I’m time poor I’m time.

[TRANSITION]: For.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:21:40] gin. You were going to open a distillery.

[TRANSITION]: At one point.

Shameek Popat: I remember previously when we were going to do one of these [01:21:45] and stuff, and I was like, actually, you know what? I’m going to open this gin distillery. Let’s, let’s [01:21:50] announce it at this thing and stop.

Payman Langroudi: This is why you Ugandans are the master race.

Shameek Popat: So. [01:21:55] Yeah. Um, I again, [01:22:00] it was actually a Covid born idea. I actually had the people, I had the finance, but I only [01:22:05] wanted this one certain venue because, look, there’s there’s 400 gins in the UK, right? So you has to have a [01:22:10] USP. It’s a, it’s a saturated market. But one of my patients had this beautiful grade [01:22:15] one listed building. Did you ever see the drive in cinema event that I [01:22:20] did for the BBC?

Payman Langroudi: I wasn’t there, but I saw it. Yeah, it was beautiful place.

Shameek Popat: That’s that’s the place I was there. That’s my patients [01:22:25] place that I could. That was an amazing event, by the way. That worked out really well. And she [01:22:30] she was on board and stuff, but it’s a grade one listed building, an area [01:22:35] so we can’t build. So the area I wanted is unfortunately on a long term lease with [01:22:40] someone and they don’t want to move because it’s a beautiful area. So we couldn’t get that [01:22:45] place and I didn’t want to just do it anywhere. Um, so I sort [01:22:50] of put the idea on the shelf. I actually did a, uh, gin making diploma. [01:22:55] I learned how to make gin. I’ve got my own. Still at home.

Payman Langroudi: What does your wife say? [01:23:00] You don’t ask permission before you do these sort of things. You just do it.

Shameek Popat: Um.

Payman Langroudi: What is she. Is she just, [01:23:05] like, up for your. You know?

Shameek Popat: No, she does get mad a little bit. She goes, yeah, yeah, because poor girl. I [01:23:10] do feel for her because she never knows when, like, like she’s [01:23:15] opened the door and a trailer is turned up with a tuk tuk on it. Yeah. And she was like, [01:23:20] what the hell is that? So I never told her because she would never let me do it. Right. It’s easier to, uh. [01:23:25]

Payman Langroudi: Apologise.

Shameek Popat: Apologise later and do something, um, or a painting. You know, [01:23:30] I got this beautiful Buddha painting that I fell in love with. Made a little booties and stuff. It turned up, um, [01:23:35] at the house or something. Or the other will do it. So. Yeah, I don’t know how she’s put up with me. [01:23:40] Um.

Payman Langroudi: Are you paying back in handbags? Definitely. [01:23:45]

Shameek Popat: Yes. Yes, you got it.

Payman Langroudi: That’s funny. [01:23:50]

Shameek Popat: Yeah. Yeah. That’s funny.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s move on to disruptive. Oh, actually, [01:23:55] I do want to hear about the sale.

Shameek Popat: Of the practice.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:24:00] The let’s go into, like, the feeling of loss when it was gone. Or did you not feel that? [01:24:05]

Shameek Popat: No, I felt the loss. Oh, my God, this time. This is my. This is my fourth trial, right? But [01:24:10] you’re still here. Actually, this is my oldest child, so I.

Payman Langroudi: Actually. This [01:24:15] does feel like a child.

Shameek Popat: Oh my God. Yeah, yeah.

Shameek Popat: So I actually likened it to giving away [01:24:20] your daughter at a wedding. Yeah. It’s a very bittersweet moment. You [01:24:25] know, you have to do it. It’s a rite of passage or something, but you don’t [01:24:30] have to like it. Um, so it was tough. The first year was tough, [01:24:35] but now. Oh, my God, I’m happy as Larry.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Shameek Popat: Absolutely. Absolutely. [01:24:40] Yeah. Best decision I did. It’s allowed me to do other things like tooth angel [01:24:45] and disruptive.

Payman Langroudi: What about the decision making process within the process, or are they less [01:24:50] fair about that? Like when you when you want to do something at a practice, do [01:24:55] you have to get permission from Portland dentists?

Shameek Popat: You know.

Shameek Popat: It’s calcium. I said I’m [01:25:00] sorry. I’m sorry. Um, to certain extent, yes, of course [01:25:05] it’s their business and stuff. So it becomes a bit more of a flower. You have to have a business plan if you want things and stuff. [01:25:10] Like one of the Ms. machine. So we had to jump through a few hoops to get it.

Shameek Popat: But you know what?

Shameek Popat: They’ve [01:25:15] been great. They’ve been good. They’ve been good bosses actually, um, they’ve left us [01:25:20] to be, um, they’re actually a really good company and good people.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:25:25] they don’t get involved in decisions that you don’t have to get too much like. I’m sure they’ll [01:25:30] piss you off if that was the case.

Shameek Popat: Maybe a little bit. But, you know, because.

Payman Langroudi: You had your.

[BOTH]: Opinion, [01:25:35] they’ve been really good.

Shameek Popat: To me. I can’t I cannot, um, say anything otherwise. [01:25:40] They’ve been really, really good to me. So I’ve been very happy.

Payman Langroudi: In the moment of selling right the next day, when you were feeling that [01:25:45] loss, did you always. I know you said bittersweet, right? What about the sweet side? Did you feel like achievement? [01:25:50]

Shameek Popat: Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, you it is. It’s like you’ve grown [01:25:55] something that someone wants and they’ve paid good money for it. Um, [01:26:00] and also, you know, the relief that. Hang on. Okay. Now, I don’t have to worry about [01:26:05] air admin. None of that. You know, I can [01:26:10] just do what I do best is go in, treat the patients and leave and not [01:26:15] have to worry about anything.

Payman Langroudi: That must be nice.

Shameek Popat: So that was a good feeling as well. But [01:26:20] it was. It’s also difficult to let go as well. Yeah. So I think the first year probably um, [01:26:25] maybe I was you know, they probably thought, oh my God, is he going to be difficult or not or something. [01:26:30] But you know, since then it’s just been great.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s move on to disruptive. What [01:26:35] is.

Shameek Popat: It? So the [01:26:40] mission for disruptive is. Elevating dentistry, whether [01:26:45] that’s through. High quality materials or [01:26:50] the clinical training provided. We want to disrupt the market [01:26:55] so that the product and the practice match so that [01:27:00] dentists don’t just buy better, but they work better.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:27:05]

Shameek Popat: Okay. There’s a lot of things out there that we end up buying. Yeah. And [01:27:10] stuff. But we don’t use because we don’t know how to use it properly. We don’t know what to do. So we want to mar that together [01:27:15] so that whenever it’s something they buy from us, we’re going to train them to use it properly [01:27:20] so it’s not wasted. So for example.

Payman Langroudi: Composite.

Shameek Popat: Composite. So yeah our main product is [01:27:25] Inspira. Um and that’s diabetes. Um [01:27:30] composite. Um, and yeah, at the bond conference [01:27:35] they approached us to say, you know, they wanted to see if they can get a distributor and whether [01:27:40] we would be interested as well. And we were like, I hadn’t thought of that. Um, [01:27:45] but suddenly that sounded like, okay, do you know what the, [01:27:50] uh, the red car theory is?

Payman Langroudi: Red car, when you see it once and you see it everywhere. [01:27:55] Yeah.

Shameek Popat: So, for example. Yeah. How many red cars did you notice on the way here? No, no, no, [01:28:00] but if I say if I say I gave you £50 for every red car you notice on the way back. Yeah, you’ll notice [01:28:05] quite a few, right. Yeah. It’s like opportunities.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shameek Popat: There’s loads of opportunities out there. But [01:28:10] because we’re not looking at them, we’re not focussed on them and stuff. We keep on missing that. But [01:28:15] suddenly when you’re focussed and you’re looking for opportunities and stuff, they just keep on coming [01:28:20] to you. And then this is what’s happening every week. I’m getting an opportunity and it’s like, wow, [01:28:25] it gets yeah to too many and stuff. And you go to pick and choose and stuff. But this, this just seemed [01:28:30] a really good match actually. Um, because, you [01:28:35] know, I’ve used a composite, I’ve trained under DDA again. Really. You know, love him as [01:28:40] an educator. A really nice guy with a good product. And then, you know, I did [01:28:45] a little bit of research on it and stuff and then suddenly thought, hang on, did you Pascal, [01:28:50] Andrew, Chandra, Pal, Govinda, Chris or Tarek [01:28:55] Bashir, Joe Bansal, Junaid Malik, they’re [01:29:00] all using this composite, but there’s nothing in the UK actually getting it out [01:29:05] to the dentists who want to use it. Um, and so [01:29:10] yeah, me and Andrew thought this would be a really good idea, good opportunity to do something with it. Um, [01:29:15] and we created disruptive smiles and then suddenly we’ve got other [01:29:20] people saying, would you like to distribute this.

Payman Langroudi: For other things?

Shameek Popat: Yeah. Well, the idea [01:29:25] would be everything composite. Okay. Yeah. So just to make it easy, one top stop [01:29:30] shop, um, for everything composite.

Payman Langroudi: And what did I tell you?

Shameek Popat: It’s [01:29:35] going to be really hard.

Payman Langroudi: Big health warning on composite [01:29:40] man. Big health warning on it.

Shameek Popat: Look, nothing. Nothing is [01:29:45] easy.

Payman Langroudi: No no no no.

Shameek Popat: Of course nothing is easy. Right. And and [01:29:50] you know, if you don’t try it, you’ll always have regrets. And I hate regrets.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:29:55] but look, why is it that you [01:30:00] have to leave my Cosmo side to one side? My Cosmo, the part of the business [01:30:05] to one side. Because you can call that 650 products. Yeah, but that was one one [01:30:10] handshake. It was 650. But. But why is it that I haven’t brought out? [01:30:15] I don’t know, tasty toothpaste or fluoride [01:30:20] free? Yeah. Why is it I haven’t done it yet. Why? Because. [01:30:25] Because bandwidth wise for me. Now, you you you may be way more [01:30:30] like. Like someone like Connor Bryant. Yeah. I just see him as a much, much [01:30:35] more like energetic businessman than me. Yeah. So Conor could can [01:30:40] do. Yeah. Loops and chairs and software. Yeah. And he can [01:30:45] pull it off, and he can talk to the right people and do it like he can.

Shameek Popat: He can’t.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Maybe you can too. Maybe [01:30:50] you can too, dude. Yeah. But I’m just saying that, you know, difficult. [01:30:55] Difficult. Because now now we’ve got this at B2C and we’ve got that at B2B. [01:31:00] And all you need now is one of these enlightened B2B B2C.

[BOTH]: Just [01:31:05] just to finish you off completely. That thing and stuff.

Payman Langroudi: No, [01:31:10] but but we did talk about it. And I said it’s a very unique opportunity because [01:31:15] if it is a good product. Dda is a good teacher. And [01:31:20] it’s it’s not like starting something completely from, from new. So and and you are in [01:31:25] in B2B. You are very strong. Yeah. It’s just unfortunate. This is a B2C product. That’s [01:31:30] kind of what I was saying to you about that in B2B. You are very strong. So good [01:31:35] on you. Um. You’re going to do what? Courses and sell materials at the course is correct. [01:31:40]

Shameek Popat: Yeah. No. Absolutely. Um, so, yeah, it’s just been great. Um, again, doing the branding, [01:31:45] the website, the website design’s done. It’ll be going to the developers tomorrow. Um, [01:31:50] and then hopefully as soon as they get it up and running, uh, it’ll be live. So [01:31:55] it’s it’s exciting. And, you know, uh, Manuela. Christina, there’s [01:32:00] such good people, um, to work with, really nice people. And like I said, [01:32:05] you know, before, um, it’s not the products people buy. People.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:32:10] And it’s always good to know with with the supplier that they’re not going to sort of screw you over. [01:32:15]

Shameek Popat: No, no. And it’s a good product.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. And but also the other way around. He’s it’s good for him [01:32:20] to know you’re not going to screw him over.

[BOTH]: Yeah, absolutely.

Shameek Popat: They’re not going to make any composite. [01:32:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. When the starting point is that, you know, you can [01:32:30] you end up. Depends on who you are, right? So Prav can do business with anyone. He’s [01:32:35] just.

[BOTH]: Strong. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: He can sit and partner with Tom, Dick or Harry. Yeah, [01:32:40] and he’ll get. He’ll make sure. He’ll make sure everything is absolutely correct. And the likes of me [01:32:45] and you, we want to know that we know the people we’re dealing with and. And [01:32:50] that’s.

Shameek Popat: Absolutely correct.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s a strength and a big weakness as well. Yeah. You know, it means you limit [01:32:55] your opportunities, your your partners, your investors, your, you know, but it’s just who you are. And [01:33:00] it’s like going against who you are as the era in life. I think, you know, at least [01:33:05] you come to a point of knowing who you are, that there’s a big point in itself, right? [01:33:10]

[BOTH]: No, I totally.

Shameek Popat: Agree with you there. Yeah, absolutely. Um, [01:33:15] I mean, like I said to you, every week I’m getting like, do you want [01:33:20] to do this? Can you partner up with this and stuff? And you got to pick and choose.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:33:25] It’s difficult. It’s difficult because, like, what it is, is in the [01:33:30] joy of the idea. The the you remember that? [01:33:35] You don’t remember that. That the dip that happens as soon as you start. And then as [01:33:40] that in that dip, you come to learn, okay, I’m going to lean in.

Shameek Popat: Into [01:33:45] the.

[BOTH]: Deep.

Payman Langroudi: Lean, lean into the dip. And that’s when costs [01:33:50] start mounting. Yeah. And then it’s like, you know what we [01:33:55] were saying? Like the worst mistake you can make in the world is to have a slow failure. Yeah, [01:34:00] a fast failure, a slow failure. It takes years of [01:34:05] your life and money as well.

[BOTH]: And.

Payman Langroudi: Drains you. And I’ve been there, I’ve been there, [01:34:10] I’ve been there. Like in the beginning of enlightenment. God, man, I, you know, difficult. [01:34:15] Um, so good luck with it, Matt.

[BOTH]: Let’s just say thank you. We’ll see. [01:34:20]

Shameek Popat: So, yeah, we just launched the Instagram, um, disruptive smiles. [01:34:25] So smiles. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So I’m a follower.

Shameek Popat: Follow. Oh. You follow?

Payman Langroudi: I’m [01:34:30] already. I’m already a follower.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. Excellent.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so when’s the first event?

Shameek Popat: Um, [01:34:35] we’re looking at probably end of September. Beginning of October. Coming September? Yeah. Oh, [01:34:40] really? Hopefully, if we can pull it off.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, and Wednesday coming.

Shameek Popat: Or is [01:34:45] it not? No, no, he will next year. Yeah, absolutely. The day will come. Um. So, yeah. You’re going to love [01:34:50] our first educator. I won’t tell you just yet because it’s not [01:34:55] here. Oh, because it’s too soon for this year.

Payman Langroudi: So next year, September [01:35:00] is not Andy.

Shameek Popat: Andy will be doing one as well, but someone else. Wait [01:35:05] and see.

Payman Langroudi: Is it? [01:35:10] Oh, what a traitor.

Shameek Popat: Oh! [01:35:15]

Payman Langroudi: I’m joking. Excellent. [01:35:20] Excellent.

Shameek Popat: No, I mean, what a cool girl. What a cool educator. Good [01:35:25] teacher. Yeah. Good. I’m really excited about it. I’m really excited about it. [01:35:30]

Payman Langroudi: We like to talk about mistakes. Let’s get to that. The darker part. The darker part of the pod. [01:35:35] It’s a bit late in the day, but I want to hear about clinical errors. What comes [01:35:40] to mind when I say clinical error?

Shameek Popat: So I love the question because [01:35:45] you learn more from failures than things going right. Yeah. And [01:35:50] one of my favourite quotes is [01:35:55] good judgement comes from experience. [01:36:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shameek Popat: An experience. Well, that comes from poor judgement.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah it’s [01:36:05] nice.

Shameek Popat: But mistakes wise. [01:36:10] Oh, I’ll tell you a funny one, actually. Um, this is more [01:36:15] early in my career. Um, I think in the first five years or something. [01:36:20] Um, of qualifying, uh, the the practice. And, [01:36:25] um, you know, I had a patient who had one of the patients, really fussy patients now making a full denture. Uh, [01:36:30] and I put one on. You know, we were on, like, probably the fifth, sixth try in, you know, [01:36:35] double mirrors, everything and stuff. And and finally she goes, yeah, [01:36:40] I like it. This is fine. All good. It was brilliant. Let’s get it. Send it off to [01:36:45] be completed. She came back two weeks later. You know, the nurse [01:36:50] handed me the denture. Popped it in? Yeah. Looks good. Bite. Checked it. Checked [01:36:55] the bite. Everything’s good. I like couldn’t wait. Go, go before you find something [01:37:00] goes. Two hours later, we got a call. I [01:37:05] was having a hot cup of tea, and my teeth are falling out and the dentures melted. [01:37:10]

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Shameek Popat: It was still in wax.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:37:15] trying.

Shameek Popat: Well, we don’t know what happened, whether it never got [01:37:20] sent back or they sent it back without finishing it and stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, it wasn’t trying. It was fit. It was fit, [01:37:25] but it was in wax.

Shameek Popat: Yeah, it was still in wax. It was supposed to be a fit stage.

Payman Langroudi: How interesting.

Shameek Popat: And it was so [01:37:30] obviously. Oh my God, I was glad to, like, remake it and stuff. And I never heard the end of it. Um, [01:37:35] from my practice, it was like, yeah, no, I’m not.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not going to.

Shameek Popat: Say no, no, no, no, that [01:37:40] was funny.

Payman Langroudi: I like a good story.

Shameek Popat: But that was a good story.

Shameek Popat: I’ll tell you. You know, you [01:37:45] may not realise, but I’m a good dentist. I’ve done I’ve, I’ve been, you know, I’ve always [01:37:50] stayed in my lane. I’ve never tried to do things that I can’t do and stuff. So [01:37:55] I’ve never really had.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, listen, listen, let’s talk about a mistake.

Shameek Popat: No, no, I’m going to tell you one. Oh [01:38:00] okay. No, no, I’m going to tell you one. I’m going to tell you one which is right. So this [01:38:05] was again quite a few years back actually. Um, actually not [01:38:10] so long after I’d gone to my first choice symposium. Um, which I’ll lead you into it, but [01:38:15] it was when we were doing, you know, um, cement retaining plants, not [01:38:20] screw retaining plants and stuff. So, you know, I’ve done the try and occlusion and stuff. And, [01:38:25] um, I was taking the Qur’an out to be able to put it in with retrieve cement. Now, [01:38:30] this patient is like big lips, lots of saliva, big tongue, [01:38:35] floppy everywhere and stuff, and nervous and fidgety. And as I was taking [01:38:40] it out, the crown just flew out and we couldn’t find out. [01:38:45]

Payman Langroudi: I swallowed, swallowed it.

Shameek Popat: He says, oh, I think I may have swallowed. And I think, [01:38:50] oh my God. So obviously we set him up. We say, all [01:38:55] right, you know, we’re gonna have to send you to an.

Payman Langroudi: X-ray.

Shameek Popat: Just to check for X-rays and stuff. And he [01:39:00] goes, no, I’m not going to wait a day. And he. And I’m pretty sure I saw it and stuff. I said, like, no, I said, I’ve got [01:39:05] to send you. Right. And you’re just saying, no, I can’t be bothered. So I said, okay, what [01:39:10] you have to do is I gave him some gloves and masks [01:39:15] and stuff. You’re gonna have to, like, look for it when you go to the toilet, because [01:39:20] otherwise you have to go for an x ray and bless him. He actually [01:39:25] called back the next day. Done it. Doggy bag founder. But that was [01:39:30] a sleepless night and the reason it was a [01:39:35] sleepless night is at the symposium, and it [01:39:40] was literally my first or second one. It was about clinical errors. And one [01:39:45] of the clinical instructors, I won’t name him, but an amazing guy did [01:39:50] the most emotional presentation that I’ve ever seen where [01:39:55] he talked about, because I think they do a lot of sedation that [01:40:00] he was treating, um, a lady. But they were friends. They were family, friends [01:40:05] and stuff. Um, and he was doing an implant and [01:40:10] there was a cover screw, and he dropped the cover screw. Um, and, you [01:40:15] know, they had to send it off, and it was down her lungs, and they couldn’t retrieve it. [01:40:20] So you had to call the husband and let him know and things. [01:40:25] And they had to operate. Take a little piece of lung out. Um, to get it [01:40:30] six months later. They’re try and do it again. And [01:40:35] guess what.

Payman Langroudi: Happened.

Shameek Popat: Again? It happened again.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Shameek Popat: He [01:40:40] said it was the most difficult phone call he ever had to [01:40:45] make to the husband.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my God.

Shameek Popat: But luckily, this [01:40:50] time they managed to retrieve it without having to operate well. But. [01:40:55] And he’s told this story 2 or 3 times in symposiums and stuff. So it’s not, [01:41:00] you know, probably one, you know, made him want to give up dentistry. [01:41:05] Thought he wasn’t good enough. Everything but his friends, family, everyone rallied [01:41:10] around him and he continued. And, you know, he’s still an amazing dentist. [01:41:15] Still practising. And I mean, I’m not doing [01:41:20] the story justice. But when he said it, you know, people were crying. You know, he got a standing [01:41:25] ovation and stuff. But he told the story about the two [01:41:30] wolves. It’s a Cherokee tale. Have you heard it? No. I [01:41:35] love that story so much. I actually used it at my parent’s [01:41:40] 45th wedding anniversary, which was her last [01:41:45] anniversary before she passed away through leukaemia. But [01:41:50] the Two Wolves story was about an [01:41:55] old Cherokee Indian walking with his grandson, and he’s telling [01:42:00] his grandson that there’s two wolves inside us, constantly [01:42:05] battling. The first wolf. Is [01:42:10] hate and we greed [01:42:15] Fearful. And then the second wolf battling is [01:42:20] good, hopeful, humble and wants good [01:42:25] things. And the [01:42:30] grandson asks the granddad, which Wolf wins. The granddad [01:42:35] says, the one you feed, all right. And [01:42:40] the way it related to my mom was, is [01:42:45] obviously she had leukaemia. And we were like, [01:42:50] my brother and I and my father, we were like scared, worried. We were researching. [01:42:55] We wanted to send her on a plane to New York to [01:43:00] have treatment, but she didn’t want that. She was feeding the good wolf, saying, no, [01:43:05] I want to spend time with my children, with my family, and enjoy what I have. And [01:43:10] that’s what we ended up doing. Um, obviously. But [01:43:15] we were constantly feeding the wrong wolf. And, you know, that’s what he was doing as well, feeding [01:43:20] the wrong wolf till his friends and family put him into the right wolf pathway. [01:43:25] So, you know, it’s always about feeding the gold wolf. You know, it’s all [01:43:30] in your head.

Payman Langroudi: How long did it take for your mom?

Shameek Popat: Um, [01:43:35] two years. Two years from. Yeah. Out of the blue.

Payman Langroudi: And you saw her declining? [01:43:40]

Shameek Popat: I mean, yes, but, you know, luckily it wasn’t. Uh, [01:43:45] yeah, it was painful and it was bad and stuff. Um, but, [01:43:50] yeah, it wasn’t something we were expecting. And she was quite young. So. Yeah. It [01:43:55] was.

Payman Langroudi: How old was.

Shameek Popat: She? 68.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Shameek Popat: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Wow. [01:44:00] Super young. So, how old were you? Um, which [01:44:05] year was, like, ten years?

Shameek Popat: Yeah. Yeah, it was 2013. She passed. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’m sorry.

Shameek Popat: Yeah. [01:44:10] Yeah yeah, yeah. So I think, yeah, we which sort of went past the, um, [01:44:15] the story. But yeah, that’s why I’d heard that story [01:44:20] and what had happened and everything. And then obviously the same thing happened to my patient and the same flashbacks and everything. What, you [01:44:25] know, what? It was sort of. And we had to leave.

Payman Langroudi: It had had more significance to you than of significance. [01:44:30]

Shameek Popat: Um, as well.

Payman Langroudi: I would like to. I don’t want to hear a mistake, but like, [01:44:35] like a, almost like a realisation when you’re doing full [01:44:40] mouth dentistry that there’s a certain something clicks in your head and it’s [01:44:45] normally it’s due to a failure that something clicks in your head. Like, I don’t know, [01:44:50] just for the sake of argument, when I was doing the Rosenthal stuff that, you know, proximal staining [01:44:55] of a veneer, you know, like, of course, you know, later when you found out, you should have prepped it a little bit [01:45:00] further, that elbow, you think, well, whatever it was. Yeah. But in that moment I was like, oh shit, [01:45:05] I can’t just go around drilling everything off, because back then we were very drill happy. Yeah. And [01:45:10] and you know, it stained within a two years or something. And I was like, God damn it. You know, like I’ve [01:45:15] done something and I had it, you know? So what was there? Was there something in your mouth, [01:45:20] the industry that something clicked in your head regarding platoon [01:45:25] planning, the actual execution, patient management. You know, as someone who’s done [01:45:30] so many, you must do.

Shameek Popat: So. I mean, look, to me, [01:45:35] one of the most important things that I actually do, and I [01:45:40] learned actually, and maybe I think that was probably through a mistake and stuff, um, was [01:45:45] I don’t know if you read the checklist manifesto.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Shameek Popat: So whenever I do something [01:45:50] like that, I do a checklist so that nothing gets forgotten. Yeah. You [01:45:55] know, everything goes anything. So I’ll have a checklist, and my assistant [01:46:00] would have it, and we would just checklist so that everything would not be, you know, because [01:46:05] there are times where I’ve forgotten the stump shade or I forgot on certain bites and stuff. Um, but [01:46:10] I have it. So whenever I’m doing, like, a rehab and stuff, I would probably actually, I’d, I’d do [01:46:15] it, you know, over two days. You know, we’ll do one arch one day, one arch the [01:46:20] other day.

Payman Langroudi: Follow your checklist.

Shameek Popat: Follow my checklist. Yeah. I have a nice little [01:46:25] checklist with, um, a b a b, you know, all the bits and everything that I do [01:46:30] are all labelled. Everything’s done. Is that been done? Yes. Has that been done? Yes. [01:46:35]

Payman Langroudi: It’s a nice tip.

Shameek Popat: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You should you should upload that to [01:46:40] your voice and say, hey, give this to all your students.

Shameek Popat: No. [01:46:45] So no, that’s, you know, so my nurse knows everything, you know, even when you’re doing fits [01:46:50] and staff checklist that this is the order that it goes in.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:46:55]

Shameek Popat: Nice man. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Final questions.

Shameek Popat: Go for it. [01:47:00]

Payman Langroudi: Fantasy dinner party. Three guests. Dead or alive.

Shameek Popat: Um, [01:47:05] to be honest, I only need one.

Payman Langroudi: Mom. [01:47:10]

Shameek Popat: Yeah, yeah. On it. Just to have a [01:47:15] nice cup of masala chai and just sit with her. [01:47:20] And just to let her know that, you know, she’s worried about my [01:47:25] brother who wasn’t married at that stage. Whether I know that he’s married with an amazing wife. [01:47:30] He has a seven year old granddaughter. That is the apple of my dad’s. [01:47:35] You know, the granddaughter is the apple of my dad. Um, our kids are thriving. [01:47:40] Doing so well, um, at university. Um. Good family. [01:47:45] We’re fine. And that is okay. That is fine. So it would just lie so [01:47:50] that, you know, she has that piece.

Payman Langroudi: I’d [01:47:55] like to leave it there. You know.

Shameek Popat: It’s. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:48:00] hard to leave it there. Do you believe she’s looking down?

Shameek Popat: Yeah, [01:48:05] definitely. I hope so. I love the fact they looked up. Uh, [01:48:10] no. It’s. You know, it’s important. I think that’s that’s [01:48:15] part of the whole thing about Uganda nations and stuff. You [01:48:20] know, family values, community values, education, you [01:48:25] know, work ethic. It all comes. I don’t know if, you know, um, in [01:48:30] the for the graduates and stuff, out of the 191 Indian billionaires, [01:48:35] 109 are Gujarati. There are they [01:48:40] makes 5 to 6% of the population, but they control 60% of the overseas business.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [01:48:45] right.

Shameek Popat: That’s quite something.

Payman Langroudi: But then the Sikhs [01:48:50] are pretty strong in business too.

Shameek Popat: Yeah, yeah there are.

Payman Langroudi: I had a friend, uh, he was, uh. [01:48:55] Cindy. My God, man, those guys knew what [01:49:00] they were talking about. All of them. It’s a small community, though. But, yeah, I mean, I [01:49:05] call you guys the master race. I keep telling you. But [01:49:10] it’s been a massive pleasure. It really has. I knew it would be, but it’s been a massive pleasure. Thank [01:49:15] you so much for being so open as well.

Shameek Popat: No thank you. You know, I really enjoyed it. And you’re an amazing host. [01:49:20]

Payman Langroudi: Great.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [01:49:25] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:49:30] Your hosts, Payman Langroudi [01:49:35] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you [01:49:40] got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay [01:49:45] for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guests had to say, because [01:49:50] I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [01:49:55] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value [01:50:00] out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating. [01:50:05]