Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] Enlightened Online Training.com to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time whitening Underwhelms try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you [00:00:30] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:00:40] Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Doctor Ash back [00:00:45] onto the podcast. Ashkan was on about three years ago. [00:00:50] Episode 125. For anyone who wants to listen to that, ash is the founder [00:00:55] and or co-founder and CEO of the Southcliffe Dental group, [00:01:00] which is how many practices now? 24. 24. Practices. How many [00:01:05] people?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Uh, about 400.

Payman Langroudi: 400 people. Big, [00:01:10] big beast.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. Yeah. It’s not small anymore. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So I [00:01:15] listened to the previous episode, and you were saying back then you were looking for 50. Did [00:01:20] you change your opinion on that? Did you go into more consolidation?

Ashkan Pitchforth: It’s more realising [00:01:25] that quantity is is maybe not the the KPI you should go for [00:01:30] quality is. Um, so so that’s why we kind of changed [00:01:35] our, our mindset and thought and thought the best thing to do would be to focus [00:01:40] on achieving being the best of the best. Um, and focusing on what we’ve got rather [00:01:45] than actually, uh, having having the most in number. And also [00:01:50] what kind of what what I think drives a lot of business owners is what I [00:01:55] think mostly most business owners is your EBITDA. You know, your bottom line profit. [00:02:00] Um, and as long as the EBITDA is increasing year on year, which usually [00:02:05] is linked to to a growth of turnover, um, that turnover [00:02:10] can be grown almost like internally rather than externally by, [00:02:15] by acquisitions. Um, so that’s what’s driven us over the last [00:02:20] 2 or 3 years, is just focusing on the, on the bottom line and [00:02:25] an implementation of a new business model as well, as opposed [00:02:30] to the existing one that we had or which most practices kind of kind of run run [00:02:35] with. Um, and then and proven it works. That’s what we did. [00:02:40]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Um, and uh, following the uh, the last podcast, [00:02:45] it went a bit belly up. We went into a period where it was, you know, I think about a [00:02:50] pound away from bankruptcy. It was that bad. It was horrendous. Um, we hit clawback [00:02:55] March 1023, um, to the tune of about £4 [00:03:00] million. Wow. Um, and then we had previous years clawback of 3 million, which we [00:03:05] just got over and it was um, it was unfortunately, uh, you know, [00:03:10] bend over and take your trousers down. Time for ash. Um, uh, [00:03:15] so then we. Yeah, it was, it was, it was been I think the last two years has been the toughest [00:03:20] two years in business in my personal life. Um, [00:03:25] then I think the whole ten years doing, you know, it’s our ten year anniversary [00:03:30] in the end of March 25th. So in the whole ten [00:03:35] years, the last two years has been the toughest, really the toughest. And I think, uh, [00:03:40] doing dentistry for 15 years, um, it’s been yeah, [00:03:45] the last two years has been incredibly it’s been tough but then rewarding because I think once [00:03:50] you’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Gotten through it.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Once you’ve gotten through that, You’ve experienced [00:03:55] it. You’ve dealt with it. You’ve changed. Um, it’s [00:04:00] taught me a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Because people kind of might think someone who’s got 24 [00:04:05] practices doesn’t have financial worries anymore. But it’s a misconception, [00:04:10] isn’t it? You don’t get to that number of practices by spending the money. Yeah. You’re [00:04:15] constantly reinvesting. Yep. And you yourself constantly working [00:04:20] in the NHS. Right.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what surprised me a little bit. You’re [00:04:25] a busy NHS dentist yourself while running 24 practices.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, well, I mean, [00:04:30] with business, cash is king, as they say. Um, so cash flow will make or break you. [00:04:35] You know, you can have all the assets in the world. If your cash runs out, you might only have a week. And then then [00:04:40] then it’s game over. Um, and also when you’re growing a business, obviously you have to you have to [00:04:45] we usually you borrow money from banks and it comes with strict covenants. And if you breach those covenants, [00:04:50] then again, um, um, they can come and, you know, start [00:04:55] pulling the strings and essentially so so that’s kind of what happened. Um, um, [00:05:00] a combination of breaching confidence and, and, uh, run out of cash because of the [00:05:05] clawback issue. Um, the only reason why I immersed into doing pretty much full time [00:05:10] at one point, full time clinical NHS dentistry was when was when I needed to implement the new [00:05:15] the new business model that we, we kind of invented. Um, [00:05:20] I think so I clinically I qualified in 2009 and I clinically retired [00:05:25] in 2019. So I did ten years, ten years of good hard clinical dentistry, um, [00:05:30] and then up to up to 2023. So for that [00:05:35] three year period, three four year period, I wasn’t doing any clinical work, just solely focussed on business [00:05:40] and bank meetings and acquisitions and, you know, head office kind of stuff. [00:05:45] Um, but then when you want to implement a new model, the best way is to to throw yourself [00:05:50] into the thick of it and to see, okay, how is it working? Can we tweak it? What needs to happen? [00:05:55]

Payman Langroudi: What was the new model?

Ashkan Pitchforth: So the new the new model is is is is utilising [00:06:00] the skill mix. Um, um, almost like the therapist the [00:06:05] therapist model. Um, um, within NHS dentistry, um, [00:06:10] which um, and our model is very different to the, to the ones [00:06:15] that you see advertised or how it’s taught. It’s a very unique one, um, where, [00:06:20] you know, it’s not just looking at the skill mix, but looking at the referral process, looking at [00:06:25] payment allocations to to therapists, dentists, you know, you’re splitting udas. Um, [00:06:30] I’m not talking about splitting treatment. Course of treatment, I mean, splitting. If a therapist is involved in a course of treatment and that’s [00:06:35] finished off by a dentist, how patients obviously perceive things, access. Um, [00:06:40] so it’s the whole thing and it and we we started running with it in the 1st [00:06:45] of April, uh, 2023. Um, and [00:06:50] it took us two years to actually implement and tweak because we had to change things. [00:06:55] We had to tweak things. We had to run with this concept as a classic example. Initially we employed [00:07:00] all the therapists and paid them an hourly rate.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ashkan Pitchforth: You pay anyone an hourly rate that doesn’t give [00:07:05] them any incentive to work.

Payman Langroudi: Slow down. Right.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, exactly. So, um, and there’s no there’s [00:07:10] nothing driving them. And also they weren’t driven as well because they were like, well, okay, my earnings are capped. I can only [00:07:15] just do more hours. So then switching it to a UDA payment mechanism, but then [00:07:20] also implementing all of the uh waiting for the regulations then to change. [00:07:25] Uh, it had to be a medical regulation change for them to give local anaesthetic without without [00:07:30] needing a patient group directive or a dentist overseeing it and then linking [00:07:35] it all back to the NHS contracts to see obviously, you know, is this is this something that can be [00:07:40] done without dentist involvement? So yeah, it took us that two year period [00:07:45] to to implement it.

Payman Langroudi: Talk me through it through a new NHS patient presents. Do [00:07:50] they get seen by therapists first? Yes. And the therapist can now do examinations. [00:07:55] Right?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yep. Examinations. Radiographs. Uh, restorations. Extraction [00:08:00] of deciduous teeth. Perio treatment. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:08:05] does that therapist by themselves decide what the treatment plan is going to be or how does it work?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yes. [00:08:10] Then they can essentially formulate the treatment plan. Um, they would then refer onwards [00:08:15] to the to the GDP, the dentist, if obviously there’s a, there’s a, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Anything [00:08:20] else they.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Can’t do outside of the scope of practice. Um, and then the benefits to [00:08:25] the GDP, uh, to the dentist is that almost you then become on the NHS, you become a [00:08:30] specialist in your own right. Because like when I work clinically now, I don’t see kids. I [00:08:35] don’t do exams. So you. So the the treatment that I’m [00:08:40] doing is simply the high yielding, high profit treatments only because you’re, [00:08:45] you’re low yielding, low profit treatments of just your band ones. And if you’re band twos [00:08:50] and even if that’s privately, you’re not, you’re not doing at all. Um, so you’re only literally coming [00:08:55] into a day of crown preps, root canals, extractions, dentures. Um, [00:09:00] so you’re focusing just on those high quality bits that you can do [00:09:05] which then, which then maximises your earnings as the GDP. So it works on both levels. But we have to try [00:09:10] and test all the different bits. Mhm. Um and then from an organisational point [00:09:15] of view, um, from um a practice based EBITDA, [00:09:20] you know, you’re looking at about 35% and generally [00:09:25] you know your, your, your EBITDA percentage of turnover in practice level, you [00:09:30] know, is around about 20 on a group corporate level, you’re looking at [00:09:35] you’re looking at an EBITDA of 25%. And usually it’s less than ten. Um, [00:09:40] so then for from a from an organisational structure, you’re looking and thinking, oh, This is amazing. [00:09:45] Um, and we went from a actual kind of like, figures, um, [00:09:50] from our March 1023 of zero profit [00:09:55] because we had the, the huge.

Payman Langroudi: Clawback.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And underperformance, pretty much all negative, as [00:10:00] it were, to, you know, the end of year one, uh, it goes up [00:10:05] to like 5 million profit, profit, EBITDA and then [00:10:10] um, and then increased, increased on that. And then the, the, the aim this year is to hit [00:10:15] hit an EBITDA of between 7 to 8. Um, well and [00:10:20] then you multiply that out and then it’s incredible.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And I don’t think you can really flip a business around [00:10:25] in that short space of time. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Like like emergency patient care, [00:10:30] right. Yeah. Interesting. So then what were the sort of issues that you came across convincing [00:10:35] people about this? I mean, there must have been issues, right? You must have had a dentist saying, what the hell? [00:10:40]

Ashkan Pitchforth: To two of them. Dentists and patients.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Patient. [00:10:45] I mean, now, as a patient, if you go into A&E, you don’t see a doctor [00:10:50] at all. At the start anyway. Yeah. You get triaged by a nurse practitioner. [00:10:55] Then you might then see, um, someone with advanced skills and all this kind of [00:11:00] stuff. They might bandage you up and send you off, give you a prescription, send you off, and and if obviously it’s [00:11:05] worse and worse and worse, then, yeah, you end up seeing seeing a doctor at the end of the line. Um, [00:11:10] and the same obviously in medical practice, you know. Um, so [00:11:15] it’s changing the patient’s perception that actually seeing a therapist is good. There’s [00:11:20] been a lot of research to say that actually patients, the patient outcomes are improved. [00:11:25] If you see a therapist. Why are happier? A lot of the time they have more time [00:11:30] to spend on a patient, whereas whereas a dentist, um, um, you [00:11:35] don’t. The way I would do clinical dentistry as well is if I saw a patient and [00:11:40] automatically I know they’re stable and this is the band one. Then you almost like you’re thinking.

Payman Langroudi: Move them along. [00:11:45]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Move them along. Because I want I want to get involved. I want to see a patient. I’m going to do something so so [00:11:50] so therefore most you’re not spending that quality time with them and talking about oral hygiene. Oh yeah. Just go and [00:11:55] see the hygienist. Oh yeah. Yeah. Just you know, whereas obviously the therapists don’t. They spend that time with them. So the patient [00:12:00] outcomes are improved. Um so the patient perception was hard. And then. Yeah, [00:12:05] also then changing the changing the perception of the dentist as well to say that actually, [00:12:10] you know, you.

Payman Langroudi: Focus on the focus on you.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. Focus on the stuff that you went into dental school to learn [00:12:15] how to do, you know, and um, um, and your day is just literally just packed [00:12:20] almost like that, um, changing their perception. So it happened. But it takes time. [00:12:25] It takes time. You got to sit everyone down, explain these things and implement it. And of [00:12:30] course, you’re going to hit hurdles and there’s going to be stumbling blocks and and things like that.

Payman Langroudi: But all the therapists [00:12:35] up to the treatment planning piece, or are you internally training them.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I [00:12:40] mean, the majority of our therapists are, um, dentists in their own right. [00:12:45]

Payman Langroudi: From foreign. From foreign qualified.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. Foreign qualified. Um, outside the EU. Um, [00:12:50] so so it’s automatically there’s a they’re [00:12:55] used to treatment planning, but then saying that we do have some UK qualified therapists and they [00:13:00] can treatment plan. Well because that’s what they’re taught to do. But they don’t. But then per say they try and [00:13:05] plan up to their scope so they would recognise there is a partially dentate patient [00:13:10] who has expressed need for, say, prostheses. So then they would just [00:13:15] do a referral to the practitioner, but then they’re going to sit down with the patient and go through. Right. This is a denture. This is a [00:13:20] fixed appliance. This is what a bridge. This is what an implant. They don’t. So they’re not going to have those discussions. But they recognise [00:13:25] up to a point. And then make the referral and then it’s down then to the dentist then to then undertake [00:13:30] that chat. But then at that point in time, the dentist essentially can then give [00:13:35] all the treatment options as well The NHS and the private.

Payman Langroudi: And then from the sort of [00:13:40] the allocation perspective the band one udas you give to the therapist and the the rest [00:13:45] you can give to the dentist.

Ashkan Pitchforth: So we split.

Payman Langroudi: You can split how it works.

Ashkan Pitchforth: You can split. Yeah. You split the UDA. So it’s the same course of [00:13:50] treatment. So only one course of treatment gets claimed on the NHS. If it’s an NHS course, you know, privately obviously works [00:13:55] differently. Um, and then obviously the therapist gets their bit, the dentist gets their [00:14:00] bit. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And are you the only ones doing this.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Our [00:14:05] model. Yes. Because our model is, it’s, it’s even though how I describe it, [00:14:10] you think oh that sounds quite easy. Our model is a lot more intense. [00:14:15] Um, it’s a lot more intricacy to it, I think on a wide, wide, wide, [00:14:20] wide scale. Yes. I think we’re the only ones doing it. [00:14:25] Um, I don’t think there’s a lot of groups that have the, the drive [00:14:30] to want to implement or can do because they’ll hit a stumbling block and they’ll just give up. Um, I don’t [00:14:35] think the model works in private practice. Fully private practice. I think it only works in an NHS slash [00:14:40] mixed practice privately, I. I can’t see it working, [00:14:45] but we don’t own private, fully private practices only because if I’m a patient that’s paying top dollar to see [00:14:50] a for an appointment, why would I pay [00:14:55] the top dollar then to see a therapist when maybe I want to see a dentist so that and then obviously then if you’re reducing the [00:15:00] fee to see a therapist, then essentially you’re in the private model. You’re doing yourself out of money [00:15:05] or doing yourself out of income by doing that. So I don’t see how that works, I think is that [00:15:10] could probably be solved. But then that’s not my problem to solve because we don’t do that’s [00:15:15] not how our business model works, then I wouldn’t there’s no sense.

Payman Langroudi: In the acquisition. You’ve [00:15:20] always focussed on mixed practices.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Why is that? Is that because it’s easier to borrow? [00:15:25]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Um, uh, yes. Um, in [00:15:30] a nutshell. Um, it’s easier then obviously to, to because you’ve got the guaranteed income coming [00:15:35] in. So your NHS income essentially covers your overheads. Yeah. And then you build on anything like that. The way [00:15:40] we when we were in the acquisition phase, um, we, we would buy practices, [00:15:45] um, almost like, you know, like a cigarette where you’ve, you’ve [00:15:50] had most of it and there’s just one final drag left. So we’d buy it at that final drag, we would pick [00:15:55] it up and have have that final puff almost. Um, so they were they were pretty much practices [00:16:00] that come to the end of their life. Uh, owners are just wanting to move on. Didn’t care anymore. [00:16:05] Um, so we would buy it and then we’d we’d, you know, we’d increase the private revenue in the practice. [00:16:10]

Payman Langroudi: So you specifically would be looking for NHS practices that weren’t doing much profit, weren’t doing. [00:16:15]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. No, no, we would.

Payman Langroudi: That would be the potential that you’d see in.

Ashkan Pitchforth: There. Exactly. Because you’ve got to have, you’ve, you’ve you’ve [00:16:20] got to be able to create, you’ve got to be able to buy something and then create equity in it. I think [00:16:25] they call it Armitage or something like that. I’m not sure the exact business term. Um, and [00:16:30] then we can then once we’ve then created more equity, essentially. We can then borrow more off of that and [00:16:35] then increase. And that’s how we expanded to 24 in a in a relatively short space of time. [00:16:40]

Payman Langroudi: And were you borrowing based on the other practices growth? Yes. Is that how it work?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. That’s how [00:16:45] it worked. Yeah. And then a lot of the time we bought in cash as well. Um, um, well, we had the [00:16:50] funds and the cash flow existed to you.

Payman Langroudi: And then from a sort of org chart perspective, [00:16:55] was there a, is there a manager on each side. And they’re [00:17:00] really in charge of growth. Is that how you do it?

Ashkan Pitchforth: No. Um, in [00:17:05] the last two years, actually, we completely changed our, um, organisational [00:17:10] structure. Actually, that was one of the things that I worked, I learned in these last two years [00:17:15] before it was more me running the show entirely. It was heavily [00:17:20] reliant on me doing a lot. Um, or delegating jobs to people that were doing [00:17:25] it that that maybe didn’t understand, um, the responsibility, [00:17:30] Ability of the position that they had. So in the last two years, we I just [00:17:35] we literally just stripped out every single member, senior [00:17:40] management member apart from three, three, four essential ones [00:17:45] that I saw potential in them. Um, and trust. [00:17:50] Um, and then we, we built built it from from there. So, so [00:17:55] we, we have a very properly organised corporate head [00:18:00] office structure now, you know, CEO, chairman, CFO, you know, [00:18:05] CEO, HR director, operations director, uh Dental directors and [00:18:10] then everyone then falling underneath that, you know, managers, then within that systems in place. [00:18:15] So it’s not heavily reliant on myself. Um, and everyone takes [00:18:20] accountability and responsibility for their area. And then underneath that then you got the practice manager. [00:18:25] So going back to your question, do we rely on the practice managers for growth. Now we rely on [00:18:30] them on, on, on following our vision and our principles and grinding it like that. Um, [00:18:35] but the the vision and the principles, the creativity comes from the higher level, myself [00:18:40] and the team, um, which is where it’s been a bit tricky in dentistry because the thing is, you can’t actually [00:18:45] measure creativity. No.

Payman Langroudi: So some [00:18:50] of the most important stuff you can’t measure.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No you can’t. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, that’s really interesting, really important point. [00:18:55] You know, because corporate structures want measurement all the time. Yeah. Um, [00:19:00] and when you come to sell this thing, measurements will be important. So that’s why they, you know, they do it, [00:19:05] but you can’t measure the feeling that someone gets from in [00:19:10] our, in our world, the feeling that someone gets from using a quality product difficult to measure. [00:19:15]

Ashkan Pitchforth: It’s impossible. You can’t you can’t, you can’t measure that. Yeah. You can’t measure how someone feels. You know how [00:19:20] oh, wow. You know, how would you measure that on a scale? Yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:19:25] it’s a, it’s an important thing because sometimes I’ve heard Johnny or [00:19:30] someone talking about this. You know, the guy who invented the iPhone. [00:19:35] Oh, right. And he was talking about when you unbox it. And as the cable [00:19:40] drops out of the way that, you know, the way they pack it. Yes. That that bit of magic that happens, [00:19:45] there is something that you go back to. Yeah. The designer, [00:19:50] something like like a meeting between you and the designer of that product. Right.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. That’s true, that’s [00:19:55] very true.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s impossible to measure it. Yeah. But in many ways, the reason why you [00:20:00] want an iPhone is many of those things. It could be like the most important thing [00:20:05] to that product, but impossible to measure it. Yeah. So yeah.

Ashkan Pitchforth: It is. It’s [00:20:10] the intricacies and the detail I find. Um, and [00:20:15] that creates something unique. Yeah. [00:20:20] Um, that makes something stand out. And I think if you focus on all those intricacies [00:20:25] and then, you know, then it pays, it pays off. And yeah, I agree.

Payman Langroudi: But from the [00:20:30] sort of the patient experience, would you say there’s a unique patient journey [00:20:35] in all of the practices, or would you say they’re all very different? Um, do [00:20:40] you work on that?

Ashkan Pitchforth: No. I mean, we are. Yes. Patient journey is very important, and we are trying to look at [00:20:45] that and constantly look at that, you know, from from phoning in [00:20:50] to turning up to sitting down. Um, I think, I [00:20:55] think there’s a lot of having looked at it now, I [00:21:00] think there’s a and seeing what other practices do, there’s a lot of practices out there that just [00:21:05] give too much attention to the wrong stuff. My my, [00:21:10] my my personal viewpoint anyway, you know, like.

Payman Langroudi: Give me an example.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I mean, I see [00:21:15] these practices out there where they honestly and I was saying this on a, on a, on a, on a course once where, you [00:21:20] know, the practice is, is that, is that that beautiful inside, [00:21:25] you know. You’ve got gold taps, you know, in the toilets. And you’re sitting in a waiting [00:21:30] room that looks like it’s something. It should be. It should be. You should be sitting in, you know, uh, [00:21:35] Louis Vuitton or something, you know. Or, um, one of the fashion houses. [00:21:40] Um, but do patients really care about that? Whereas [00:21:45] my point, my my point of view would be actually patients more care about [00:21:50] getting an appointment on time. Yeah. The appointment being worked around their [00:21:55] their social life or their ability to come. Things like parking, accessibility [00:22:00] and then obviously the condition that they see and how they’re treated as opposed [00:22:05] to all that. And even when I had I mean, I’ve, I’ve had loads of [00:22:10] cosmetic surgeries in the past and tattoos and all this kind of stuff. And, you know, I don’t [00:22:15] I don’t choose a place based upon the way it looks. I choose a place based upon [00:22:20] the practitioner at the end of it. Um, and.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, the thing is, [00:22:25] I hear you. Yeah. There’s nothing worse than a restaurant that looks beautiful. And the food’s [00:22:30] terrible, right? Yes, I get that. I get that’s very true. But the difference in dentistry is, [00:22:35] look, at the end of the day, you’ve got. You get the tattoo. You can look. You can see the tattoo. Yeah. You [00:22:40] can sort of give an evaluation of the quality of that tattoo by the final result. Most [00:22:45] of dentistry patients can’t tell whether it was good or bad. Most of it. I mean, [00:22:50] of course, you’ve got high end cosmetic dentistry or whatever. Ortho, maybe you can tell. But most [00:22:55] dentistry, your patient cannot tell whether that matrix was put on correctly or not. Cannot [00:23:00] tell whether you, you know, did anything right or not. Yeah. So then that leaves [00:23:05] non-clinical cues as the only thing that they’ve got to [00:23:10] go on. Now I understand. Yeah. An appointment on time. That’s a non-clinical [00:23:15] cue. Yeah. But I go to. I’ve been to thousands of practices, I think. And you [00:23:20] know what I mean by the cobweb in the corner, that you don’t see [00:23:25] yourself when you work in a place, you don’t see it because you’ve been working there for so long. [00:23:30] And yet, from a patient perspective, that cobweb could tell them more about [00:23:35] the practice from their perspective than than the filling, because they don’t know what you did [00:23:40] with the filling. Yeah. Yeah. So in a way, how things look, how clean the toilet [00:23:45] is, all that stuff is a reflection for patients. Now, me and you know that [00:23:50] there is no link between how clean the toilet is and how well the matrix is put on the tooth. We [00:23:55] know that.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, if we’re serving our patients and we want them to think that we’re good, [00:24:00] we I think we need to focus a bit more on that sort of stuff. I mean. [00:24:05]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Cleanliness, I mean, yeah, I’m of course 110%. And [00:24:10] just having something standard is okay, but I’m mainly making reference to when [00:24:15] people go overboard, you know, and and it then becomes ridiculous. I mean, I liken it to [00:24:20] McDonald’s. Patients go to McDonald’s. Patients? Customers go [00:24:25] to McDonald’s, obviously, for food, you know, because you have the consistency. They know [00:24:30] exactly what they’re going to get. Yeah. And it’s not it’s not as high end as if you go. If you go, you know, [00:24:35] to, uh, um, to Cecconi’s in Mayfair, you know, a high end Italian [00:24:40] place. Yeah. Um, the two different ends of the ends of it. But then over your [00:24:45] lifetime, you’re more likely going to frequent a McDonalds or Nando’s [00:24:50] more often than you would the high end Knightsbridge restaurants.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And that’s the [00:24:55] that’s where that’s essentially our models are built on. You get that, you get the standardisation, you get the [00:25:00] cleanliness, you get everything like that. Yes. It’s not a high end like a Knightsbridge practice, but [00:25:05] people are going to keep on coming back for that reason because of the consistency and [00:25:10] the quality and this kind of stuff. That’s kind of what I’m getting at rather than. Of course, if there’s. Honestly, [00:25:15] I’ve been in. If I go into one of our practices. And there’s there’s something wrong, like a bit of dust [00:25:20] or a cobweb or toilet roll that hasn’t been placed. Oh, honestly, I go absolutely nuts. [00:25:25] I mean, I’m a stickler for.

Payman Langroudi: Well, let’s get to that then. Let’s get to that. What is your leadership [00:25:30] style? Um, because I met your your I think top people. Right? [00:25:35] Yeah. And was that the sort of the 3 or 4 people that.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Rachel Charlotte Green? Yeah. [00:25:40] It’s like.

Payman Langroudi: And they all seem to love you. They all seem to love you. Um, but when [00:25:45] you say you go mad, you go crazy. Like, what are you. What kind of boss are you? Are you, are you easy [00:25:50] to to work for or difficult?

Ashkan Pitchforth: No no no no no no. I mean I, I believe [00:25:55] no I believe, I believe I’m easy, easy to work for. I mean, the thing is, is that [00:26:00] the people that. It’s. [00:26:05] I like high standards. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. And I’m not going to [00:26:10] lower my standards just to just to please someone or people. I’m all for. [00:26:15] But I’m. But I’m also quite cutting in what I. I’m not going to beat around the bush if I, [00:26:20] if, if I think something I’m gonna say no. That’s that’s shit. You [00:26:25] know, that idea is crap. I’m not going to turn out. Oh, fantastic. That’s great. Well, yeah. [00:26:30] Thank you for your hard work. And I’m thinking, Jesus, it took you, like, three days to do that when literally, you know, I could [00:26:35] have done it in about half an hour. Um, so there’s I’m. I’m [00:26:40] honest. Um, which, yeah, you could say it’s a bit of a downfall sometimes. [00:26:45] Um, but, but but then also then I’m once you’ve kind of [00:26:50] once I learn to trust you, and I know you’re hardworking and you’re bedded in. Then. Then it’s almost like you [00:26:55] become part of my family, and then I will do anything for you. I’d love you to, you know, till [00:27:00] the cows come home. Um, my leadership skills is, I think, [00:27:05] has changed somewhat over the last few years.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I’ve mellowed out a bit more maybe, [00:27:10] than what I used to be. Um, only because I’ve been. I have to be, you learn to be able to delegate, [00:27:15] learn to be able to maybe let go sometimes, but then then. But [00:27:20] the thing is, is that is that I go home. When I go home, it’s it’s [00:27:25] all on me still, you know, it’s my names linked to the company. So a [00:27:30] bad review or a bad reflection on something then it’s almost like a bad reflection on myself. So I take it quite [00:27:35] personally. And that’s, that’s quite a it’s hard sometimes to deal with this because then you’re relying on other people [00:27:40] representing you, representing your brand. Um, and if they let things down [00:27:45] or let you down, then you’ve got to decide. Do you continue them letting you down [00:27:50] or do you? There’s a point where you have to stop and say, you know what, actually, I can’t continue this because, you [00:27:55] know, we’re not family. We’re not related that I have to continue it. You know, I need [00:28:00] to I need to focus on having that, having that excellence and that brand. And so [00:28:05] yeah, it’s a it’s a balance. It’s certainly a balance.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, you don’t [00:28:10] get to 24 practices without trusting people. Yeah. You know that you’re [00:28:15] making. You’re making that you’re this control freak. I mean, you I’m sure you are. But you [00:28:20] don’t get to 24 practices without trusting a bunch. A bunch of people. No no no no no. [00:28:25]

Ashkan Pitchforth: And also when when the times are half tough. Like when it was tough. Yeah. In [00:28:30] 23, those three people were mentioned, you know, they stayed. They stayed. [00:28:35] And where everyone else went, everyone else was quick to leave. You know, they [00:28:40] trusted me, you know, and it’s hard to trust someone. It’s hard when you turn around to someone and say, you know what? We’re [00:28:45] we’re at the bottom now, but please trust me, we’re going to we’re going to get back. You [00:28:50] know, it takes a lot for people to. And so I’m very I’m very grateful, [00:28:55] um, to especially to those who into all that. And so there’s a lot of others actually that did, that did trust me [00:29:00] at that point in time because some because the banks didn’t the banks were close to be like, no, no, no, [00:29:05] that’s not gonna work. How are you going to pull this back? How are you going to go from performing a year end [00:29:10] Around 65% of your NHS target. To [00:29:15] 110% the next year, because no group in in the [00:29:20] UK has ever done that before, has ever flipped that around that easily and that quickly before. Yeah. And we did, um. [00:29:25]

Payman Langroudi: What was the reason for underperforming the contract and did [00:29:30] you see that? Did you realise it quick enough or did you realise it too late or.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Realise it too late? [00:29:35]

Payman Langroudi: So was it you weren’t keeping your eye on the numbers.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Wasn’t keeping my eye on the numbers? Yeah. Focusing [00:29:40] on other stuff around, not keeping the core principles of the business in place, which I [00:29:45] used to, uh, at the beginning, um, the UDA delivery, the private revenue delivery, [00:29:50] uh, the um, diary utilisation, focusing on other stuff like marketing [00:29:55] and Instagram and all this kind of stuff and going, going that way and then not keeping [00:30:00] or not keeping track of that and then realising it too late and then trying to claw it back at the end and then thinking, [00:30:05] yeah, we should better claw it back because most people do. And then realising, oh, know. Actually, we’re not going to [00:30:10] call this back. And then once it’s too late, it’s too late. Um, and then I think [00:30:15] me taking my eye off the ball as a CEO for a period of time, for about six months, [00:30:20] you know, focusing on that and not being hell bent and focussed on, on the business, um, [00:30:25] I think I think then led to, led to that kind of downfall happens.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:30:30] happens, doesn’t it? I mean, over a period of years, I think back to times [00:30:35] where I, you know, just just wasn’t feeling it in the same way. And you’ve [00:30:40] changed a lot since the last time you were on. So last time you were on, you were giant. [00:30:45] Yeah.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You were huge guy.

Ashkan Pitchforth: £250. [00:30:50]

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And now I’m 125. Half the [00:30:55] weight I’ve lost. Yeah. Pretty much half my body weight. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Talk me through what happened.

Ashkan Pitchforth: So, [00:31:00] yeah, I mean, I just, I mean, in 2020. So I think you would [00:31:05] have tracked back. So when I went to university, Versity. Um, I started I started bodybuilding [00:31:10] during that period of time and, and, and got to a and [00:31:15] got to a big weight, good physique and then met my, uh, met a girl [00:31:20] at the time at uni who then later became my wife. Um, and um, but during [00:31:25] that period of time at uni, you know, taking, taking anabolic steroids because there’s no way you [00:31:30] can physically get to that size of muscle. You [00:31:35] can get to that size of fat, but of muscle, pure quality muscle without taking peds [00:31:40] performance enhancing drugs. Um, and doing that.

Payman Langroudi: Took me [00:31:45] through. Took me through what what does what do anabolic steroids do? Do they help with recovery? [00:31:50] Yeah. Is that what it is.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Well there’s so peds part of PEDs are anabolic [00:31:55] steroids. It’s a part of it. It’s anabolic steroids. Help with recovery, help with muscle [00:32:00] growth. Um, because the body is limited, you’re limited to the hormones. It’s. [00:32:05] The growth is related to how much growth hormone you have in your body, how much testosterone you have in your body, [00:32:10] which is driving muscle repair. Um, so there’s that. Um, [00:32:15] but then there’s other peds that exist, um, that also help with, uh, [00:32:20] performance. Um, you know, like, um, levothyroxine is an example, [00:32:25] you know, stimulating your thyroid, obviously, to reduce your body fat, um, and [00:32:30] other things that would reduce, like your water retention and all that kind of stuff. So there’s a combination, there’s a cocktail [00:32:35] almost. And, um, some of them are tablet form, some of them are injectables. [00:32:40] Um, and um.

Payman Langroudi: So, I mean, you, I [00:32:45] guess, researched all of this. Yeah. And spoke to people and so on. Yeah. What [00:32:50] was were you sort of single mindedly obsessed with becoming as big as [00:32:55] possible with the minimum body fat and not thinking about consequences of that? [00:33:00]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Well, I think it relates back to having body dysmorphia, which is I still have. But I’ve learned to control. [00:33:05]

Payman Langroudi: But did you even recognise it as that?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Not that. Not at that time. Now, having gone through. What were.

Payman Langroudi: You thinking? You [00:33:10] just think I’m just gonna get bigger and bigger and bigger.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Now I look in [00:33:15] the mirror every morning. When I look in the mirror, I look in the mirror and think, man, I don’t like the [00:33:20] person that’s looking back at me either. I think I’m too fat at the moment, or I’m thinking I’m too skinny. Um, I [00:33:25] think my nose is too big or my ears stick out too much, or, you know, my eyebrows are too wonky. So you know, you’re [00:33:30] as when you’ve got body dysmorphia. You’re constantly criticising yourself, even though you might look okay. Um, [00:33:35] so, um, back then, in having built a dysmorphia, [00:33:40] as I look at myself and think, I need more confidence, maybe the more confidence is getting bigger. Developing [00:33:45] that ultimate physique, that that beauty. Um, and then also loving art [00:33:50] and anatomy and being able to look at your body and to sculptor it and sculpt, sculpt it. Really. [00:33:55] Um, and, um, so that’s what I got into then.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:34:00] the way you describe it, it’s kind of a moving target, right? In a way. So let’s say you [00:34:05] hyper focus on your ears for the sake of the argument. Then you pin them back. [00:34:10] Then you start focusing on something else. Yeah, that’s that’s the nature of it.

Ashkan Pitchforth: That’s the nature of body dysmorphia. [00:34:15] You. It’s very hard to cure. You’ve got to learn to control it. It’s very hard to cure it.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:34:20] even though you know that, you still fall into it, right? Yeah. I mean, I guess it’s like knowing cigarettes [00:34:25] are bad for you, but still smoking them, right? It’s a similar thing.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yes, exactly. Um, [00:34:30] and, uh. And. Yeah, so, so I, I mean, in terms going back to your question of how [00:34:35] did I do it? You get a coach. They teach you, you know, you you learn these things, you read things [00:34:40] in books and magazines and all that kind of stuff. What to do, what to take. Um, it’s kind of like a very dark. [00:34:45]

Payman Langroudi: And where did you get from a dealer? Is that how it works?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. I mean, [00:34:50] it’s not a backstreet place you go to, you know, you you leave a you leave some money in an envelope, and [00:34:55] then you and then you pick it up, and then you wink at someone, you just order them online. And the thing with [00:35:00] the thing with anabolic steroids is they’re not illegal in the UK to buy and possess and to take illegal [00:35:05] to sell. So. So yes, there’s nothing illegal in what you do. Um, that’s [00:35:10] why I didn’t, you know, that’s why I did it. I’ve never actually done any recreational drugs. I’ve never done anything illegal in [00:35:15] my life in that sense. Um, so. Yeah, so, so so I did it when I was at university for a period of time. [00:35:20] But then when I met, uh, my girlfriend at the time, who later became my wife, obviously [00:35:25] learning her influence, actually [00:35:30] feeling loved made me feel, actually, I don’t need this. Maybe this is something inside that’s actually [00:35:35] more important than the way you look as an outside. Um, and so therefore, I was I was [00:35:40] clean for 13 years during my marriage. But then at the end of the marriage, when it [00:35:45] was breaking down, then the thoughts come back into your mind of maybe the marriage is breaking down [00:35:50] because of the way I look. Therefore I need to take something in order to then change my physique [00:35:55] and improve my physique.

Payman Langroudi: It’s all fell back into it.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Exactly. And then I fell back into it. Right. I’m [00:36:00] actually thinking it’s because I worked too much and I didn’t. Actually, uh, devote. I mean, the marriage [00:36:05] broke down simply because of me. It wasn’t. It wasn’t for my, uh, for my ex wife. And, [00:36:10] um.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a good I mean, the other one, you know, sort of fetishise that. Thing. But [00:36:15] is it to do with sort of this level of obsession? Because it must take to go to go? I mean, [00:36:20] I was at your ten year anniversary in ten years to go to 24, [00:36:25] actually, you got to 24 even before ten years before.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, we did years before.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe six, seven [00:36:30] years. Right? Yeah. To get from one practice to 24 in 6, [00:36:35] seven years takes a degree of obsession, right?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: And that obsession [00:36:40] comes with sacrifice.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And so, okay, we talked about the physical sacrifices [00:36:45] and the health care and mental health and all that. Explain to me what happened to your marriage. [00:36:50] I mean, were you not there for her or not there for life events or. [00:36:55] Yeah. Is that what it was?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. I mean, the thing with I think when you’re, when [00:37:00] you’ve got, when you’ve got a personality like mine, which is ones that you would say maybe describes [00:37:05] someone that’s entrepreneurial and driven and hard working is that I will work [00:37:10] harder than anyone else to win. I’ll do anything to win. And even if it sacrifices, [00:37:15] you’re putting my health on the line. I’ll do anything. Um, it’s something that’s inbuilt. [00:37:20] I don’t know what it is. Um, if you give. If you say. If you give me a challenge, I’ll do it [00:37:25] no matter what. Um, and the thing, obviously, with growing the business and trying to be the best. And that’s what I wanted [00:37:30] to do at the start, it was more of organic and then wanted to go into it thinking, oh, actually, no, no, no. Why can’t I have [00:37:35] ten practices? And then when you get to ten, why can’t I have 12? Why can’t I have 15? When you hit 10 million turnover, [00:37:40] why can’t I have 15 million? Why can’t I have 20 million? You keep going and keep going and keep going. And so therefore, [00:37:45] you just have to put in the hours and the time. Um, and then feel. And then you feel guilty when [00:37:50] you’re not putting that time and then it’s.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And then things give. So yeah, it was, it was me simply just working. [00:37:55] Working constantly. Working all the time. Um, you know, on my laptop at home. [00:38:00] Um, on my phone, um, all the time. All the time. And then. And then, because you’re [00:38:05] building and growing the business, you can’t just do that side of things. You then have to do the extracurricular activities. [00:38:10] Like, I was a clinical advisor for three years for the NHS to learn from. My point of view was to learn about [00:38:15] how the inner workings of the NHS work and the GDS contracts and all the regulations, things like that. So then I’ve [00:38:20] got to do that on as well as on the side, you know, as well as doing my own job, you [00:38:25] know. So it’s just I just put, I just put the hours in and didn’t devote [00:38:30] my time, didn’t have that break for family. And then eventually it gives, [00:38:35] you know, that other person. Then, you know, you just end up neglecting them and you grow apart. [00:38:40] That’s exactly what happened. We we just we just grew. It was too far. We were too far.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:38:45] again noticed too late.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Noticed too late from my point of view. Noticed too late. All the signals were there. [00:38:50] But I was stupid. Which is. Yeah, it’s one of those. It’s.

Payman Langroudi: What have [00:38:55] you learned to forgive yourself around these sort of situations or. No. Does it still bother [00:39:00] you? Does it still?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. You know, I don’t. I’m very critical of myself. [00:39:05] I don’t forgive myself for anything, you know, um, I don’t I don’t think you can I my belief. [00:39:10] I don’t think you can forgive yourself for anything. I think I need, I need the person that you harm [00:39:15] or any the person that is affected by your actions can forgive you. You can’t forgive yourself [00:39:20] for things. That’s my opinion anyway.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, look, you must have thought [00:39:25] about this, right? Like, where does it come from? Why why [00:39:30] why do you have to be obsessed with winning? Where does that come from? Was is [00:39:35] there something in your childhood that you thought? I mean, the previous pod you were saying you’re both. Your parents worked [00:39:40] their butts off and you learnt hard work from them both. Nurses, right? [00:39:45]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: You learnt hard work from them? Yeah, but was there. I mean, something [00:39:50] in your childhood that said I’ve got to break through. Breakthrough. You’ve got a brother, right? Yes. Is he like that?

Ashkan Pitchforth: No. [00:39:55] Completely.

Payman Langroudi: Very different.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Very different.

Payman Langroudi: He’s like me and my brother. Very different too.

Ashkan Pitchforth: He lives [00:40:00] a relaxed life, which is good in that respect. You know, he’s amazing [00:40:05] life, you know? He watches TV. I never. I can’t watch TV all the time.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:40:10] does he do?

Ashkan Pitchforth: So he’s a qualified dentist, but he focuses more on the Botox [00:40:15] and fillers and the. And the aesthetic, um, face stuff. [00:40:20] So not actually the physical drilling and filling and things, but I don’t know. I mean, linking it back to going [00:40:25] through rehab for the, the the steroids, the drug addiction, [00:40:30] the body dysmorphia. I think I think, yeah, I kind of like touched on it with some [00:40:35] therapists that I think it was childhood of just, I [00:40:40] don’t know, maybe it’s the upbringing of just my parents didn’t [00:40:45] force me. No, no, no, they didn’t force me to, to to to do well. But That [00:40:50] they they almost said that, you know, the world is your [00:40:55] oyster and there’s no ceiling. So if you want to achieve, go and achieve. Keep pushing yourself. And I think [00:41:00] having that drive at a young age just maybe just seeps in and you just can’t let [00:41:05] it go. Um, but that’s not a bad thing in all respect. In some respects, it’s not a bad [00:41:10] thing.

Payman Langroudi: Everything has good and bad in it. You know, that’s that’s what I’ve come to realise that your [00:41:15] biggest strength is your biggest weakness. Yes. You know, so whether, you know, it’s very easy to [00:41:20] say, is it a good thing or a bad thing? Without realising, it’s a good and a bad thing. Yeah. [00:41:25] Yeah. Most things. Yeah. Right. Most things. You could. You could be the kindest guy in the world. [00:41:30] And then when it comes to firing people, you can’t fire them because you’re too kind.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. [00:41:35]

Payman Langroudi: You know, you don’t want to change, ruin someone’s life or something, you know, like. So even something as kindness, [00:41:40] something as beautiful as kindness can be a massive weakness. Of course. Yeah. You know, [00:41:45] and you alluded to it before. If someone’s not doing their job. Yeah. You know, for the business, you have [00:41:50] to sort of act.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. Of course.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, so that’s one [00:41:55] thing, but have you read the I mean, for me, it would be the Tick Tock, the [00:42:00] book. There’s a book that palliative care nurse, she goes around, [00:42:05] um, nursing homes talking to people who are definitely [00:42:10] going to die.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Oh, no.

Payman Langroudi: And ask them what their biggest regrets are in life. Wow. And then she’d [00:42:15] written a book, The Five Regrets of the dying.

Ashkan Pitchforth: What are they?

Payman Langroudi: So look, most of them you [00:42:20] can guess, right? Things that I wish I stayed more in touch with friends and family. Yeah. I wish I worked less, [00:42:25] by the way. Um, I’d say that’s more an employee mindset than [00:42:30] a than a business owner mindset. Yeah. Um, but the one that I want you to focus on is. I wish [00:42:35] I’d allowed myself to be more happy. Yeah. Yeah. [00:42:40] And and, you know, this question of. Progress [00:42:45] And contentment being in opposition? [00:42:50] Yes. Yeah. A lot of us have that feeling that if I’m content, that means I’m not [00:42:55] progressing.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yes. Static. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But when you look back [00:43:00] or when I look back, ten years ago, I was a very happy person. [00:43:05] But I wasn’t allowing myself to be happy. Yes. Because I thought I need to progress. And [00:43:10] so then you you fast forward ten years from now, you’re [00:43:15] going to look back on today and think, My God, I was happy. Yes. Back [00:43:20] then. Yeah. And, you know, managing that tension [00:43:25] between contentment and progress. Yeah. You [00:43:30] know, for years and years and years, I used to fool myself in thinking, you know, pleasure [00:43:35] and happiness were in the same area. Yes. But they’re not.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:43:40] definitely not. And contentment. Totally different area. Completely, completely [00:43:45] different area to pleasure and happiness. Yeah, but, you know, solving that as a, as a, as a business owner, [00:43:50] it kind of sounds a bit weak to say I’m content. Yeah, [00:43:55] but contentment must be peace must be the goal, [00:44:00] right?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yes, yes.

Payman Langroudi: What do you think about all that?

Ashkan Pitchforth: I [00:44:05] think it’s it’s in weight. I [00:44:10] think life is too. There’s two parts of life. There’s there’s work life. There’s non-work [00:44:15] life. Um. So I [00:44:20] love my work. I love it. Um. I’m passionate. Um. [00:44:25] And that’s why I want to keep on progressing. Because it just drives me to wake up and to keep going. [00:44:30] So am I content in work life and [00:44:35] will I ever be content? No, I don’t think I would. Um, because I want that [00:44:40] to be a driver, to be a motivation.

Payman Langroudi: But there you go again, telling [00:44:45] me that they’re in opposition to each other.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, they are in opposition. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I get you, I get you when [00:44:50] you go to the gym and build muscle. If you’re content, you’re not going to turn up anymore. You’re not going.

Ashkan Pitchforth: To.

Payman Langroudi: Push as [00:44:55] hard as you have to push. Yeah. Like I’ve never really done it. But I’m sure sometimes you’re, you’re you’re pushing [00:45:00] a weight that literally might rip something or you know, that a content person isn’t [00:45:05] about to do that.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No, no, no. That’s true.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, so I get that. But at the same time, [00:45:10] right. The let’s say you get $1 billion [00:45:15] exit, let’s imagine it. Yeah. Well, the next day you’re still [00:45:20] ash. Yeah. You still got the same everything. Yeah. Except you got $1 billion in the bank. [00:45:25] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And you could you could chalk it up and say, [00:45:30] hey, I did. My parents said I could achieve anything, and I did achieve $1 billion. Okay. [00:45:35] So, like what what what’s what does that [00:45:40] solve? Like.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No it.

Payman Langroudi: Doesn’t. But but then what I’m saying about childhood is maybe there is [00:45:45] a deficit from childhood. We all have them. We all have them.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, maybe.

Payman Langroudi: A deficit [00:45:50] from childhood where you’re trying to fill it with this achievement. Yeah. Let’s say.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. No, [00:45:55] I completely agree. I think you’re right. I think you’re right. I don’t think I’ll ever be content. Even if I had [00:46:00] a.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just not in you.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Billion dollars or something like that. I just don’t think I’d ever be content. I’d just keep. I just keep [00:46:05] wanting to go and focus on the next thing and the next idea and the next project. And yeah.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve [00:46:10] got to do what we’re good at as well, right? Yeah. If you’re not good at contentment, it’s never going to work for you.

Ashkan Pitchforth: But [00:46:15] then also, maybe those people are the visionaries, you know, the pioneers.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:46:20]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Which is not a bad thing, you know, because if you’re a pioneer or something and you’re a visionary, you’ll never be content. [00:46:25] Anything you do.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, apparently Gandhi’s family used to hate him. Yeah, but, [00:46:30] you know. There we go again. So he’s a good [00:46:35] thing or a bad thing, you know, it’s like. It just is. Yeah. Let’s talk about Problems [00:46:40] you’ve been having with the GDC?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, well.

Payman Langroudi: You want to discuss.

Ashkan Pitchforth: That? Yeah. Of course. [00:46:45] Yeah, sure. Yes, definitely 100%. Yeah. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: Take me through.

Ashkan Pitchforth: It. Well, yeah. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:46:50] did it start?

Ashkan Pitchforth: In their eyes, I’m a bad boy, you know, uh, the allegations go back to over [00:46:55] seven years ago, you know, from. The thing is, is that there’s [00:47:00] been no patient issues at all. Um, I’m not trying to blow my own trumpet, but I think I’m a very good clinician. [00:47:05] You know, I’m a clinician. You know, I’m not. You know, I don’t do high end, [00:47:10] you know, highly street level of work. But I care for my patients. I [00:47:15] care for them no matter what. Um, my patients with all dignity and respect and humility. [00:47:20] Um, so there’s been no patient issues. Um, uh, but [00:47:25] obviously the issue obviously is, is the, the taking of the steroids, which they think is.

Payman Langroudi: How did they [00:47:30] come to hear about that?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Um, because, um, unfortunately. Well, not unfortunately unfortunately. [00:47:35] But I talk about it to people because I’m not, you know, I’m not so much embarrassed about [00:47:40] it. And at one point it was it was a bit too bloody obvious. And, you know, because you’re huge when you’re sitting there and you’ve got [00:47:45] 21 inch arms, you know, you want it, you know, in a triple XL doesn’t even fit you anymore. [00:47:50] Um, you know, you’ve got you’ve got muscle on top of muscle on top of muscle and it’s all just bulging [00:47:55] out. I mean, it’s, it’s it’s it’s obvious. Um, and also I do like to, [00:48:00] um, um, you know, I as part of being a, you [00:48:05] know, part of having that athletic ability or that focus on the way you look and things like that. [00:48:10] You know, I take photos and post them on my Instagram and, and sometimes they reveal [00:48:15] a lot of flesh, but nothing that is illegal. But according to maybe the gdc’s [00:48:20] eyes, that’s maybe not the most professional of things to do.

Payman Langroudi: But I don’t think what happened. Did you see? Look at your [00:48:25] Instagram.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No, no. So obviously employees, ex-employees, there might have been a bit disgruntled or write to them and say, [00:48:30] oh, did you know that one of your registrants takes anabolic steroids, which is again, not illegal to do? Um, [00:48:35] also, do you know, obviously.

Payman Langroudi: You bought like you fired someone and they were pissed.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Off. Exactly. Because some [00:48:40] people just want to stab stab you in the back. And not necessarily actually me, but obviously because I’m the face of it, [00:48:45] I have the brand. I take the full whack, almost. So, um, so, you [00:48:50] know, they don’t report a clinical director, you know, or, or the compliance manager [00:48:55] or something. There’s this GDC register, and they report, I get it. Um, and [00:49:00] over the over over years, it’s built up and built up and built up and allegations built up from. But [00:49:05] the thing is, which I guess the GDC don’t realise is that is that is that those people represent [00:49:10] less than 1% of the people that have worked for me. And you’re not going to always please 1%. And [00:49:15] actually those 1% are the ones that actually I don’t think they should [00:49:20] work in industry at all because they were utterly useless in the sense that not useless [00:49:25] in the sense that they, you know, they don’t put patient care first. [00:49:30] So I’m maintaining standards and chucking them out, and they’re trying to get back at me and the GDC, not look [00:49:35] at it and in thinking, actually. Actually, let’s look at it. And you’re the awful one here. He’s doing he’s doing [00:49:40] stuff for the greater good. So they have to investigate.

Payman Langroudi: So someone said something and [00:49:45] then.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And also things and things get misinterpreted because in the original, [00:49:50] when we originally set up this organisation, you know, no one teaches [00:49:55] you of how to act as the top is essentially like [00:50:00] the top guy, the CEO. Um, so, you know, at the [00:50:05] start, the organisation is almost like a kind of like a Google, kind [00:50:10] of like Apple, kind of like a very relaxed head office kind of situation and [00:50:15] scenario, you know. So one of the allegations is, I think it states that I was in a state [00:50:20] of undress in a common area. And what that relates to is that I went [00:50:25] and had my nipples pierced, came back to the office. Um, the girls [00:50:30] in the office were like, oh, great, ash, let’s see, you know, and there was about eight of them there. Um, [00:50:35] and I think one was a newbie. I said to everyone, is [00:50:40] everyone happy for me to take my top off for people to see? Yeah. Everyone was like, yes, yes, please, please, please done it. [00:50:45] Didn’t realise that newbie took a photo secretly. Um, and [00:50:50] then when we had to let her go because, um, you know, she she was, she was supposed to be a property manager, [00:50:55] and she couldn’t. I mean, I didn’t I don’t think she realised what a brick was, you know, that’s how useless she was.

Ashkan Pitchforth: She then [00:51:00] sent that to the GDC and said, this guy, you know, undresses himself in front of women [00:51:05] in the office. So it’s it’s then used against me. It’s flipped. [00:51:10] So having to have that experience now, if I were to come to the office and if [00:51:15] I’ve had something like a tattoo done, and if the girls say, I can have a look, I’ll be like, you know, I just wouldn’t even it wouldn’t be a topic of [00:51:20] conversation because you’ve learnt going through ten years of learning and the experience because that’s [00:51:25] not written in a book. There’s no rule of what to do. Um, but back then I trusted people. Back [00:51:30] then it was very relaxed environments. Back then it was okay. The three goals that I mentioned, [00:51:35] you know, that work very closely with. Yes. If we were together, I would trust them. You know, I would I [00:51:40] would be like, yeah, let’s look at this tattoo about that, you know, because you learn to trust them with your life. Um, and [00:51:45] some of our clinical directors and the same thing, um, Emile, he’s worked for me for years. [00:51:50] He’s, uh, you know, we have such a laugh together. Um, but, um, so. [00:51:55] Yeah. So, again, those kind of allegations build up, and the dude didn’t do anything for seven years.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Then all of a [00:52:00] sudden, I think they just thought, you know what? Let’s just try and make a make a thing of this. And then [00:52:05] and then it’s. And then I have this, this, this, this, this case going on to answer really. So [00:52:10] at the moment it’s at the interim orders stage where they kind of need to work out. Do they need to sanction [00:52:15] me. But then again that’s usually because they have to sanction you to put conditions [00:52:20] on you because they’re your threat to patients. If there’s not been a patient complaint, then what’s the issue? So [00:52:25] so it’s going backwards and forwards. It’s mine’s a very difficult and it doesn’t [00:52:30] fit the box. You know, usually it’s the GDC is you muck up with patients, you don’t take [00:52:35] radiographs, you don’t diagnose caries, or you’re rude to patient or you’re inappropriate to a patient. It’s a very clear cut, [00:52:40] you know, level of steps you’re going through. Mine is okay. He’s [00:52:45] he’s on his personal Instagram. He’s got his top off. Is [00:52:50] that no patients haven’t complained about that. Patients actually loved [00:52:55] it and commented and you know but then but then is that [00:53:00] deemed then unprofessional. And this is kind of that where you’re battling backwards [00:53:05] and forwards. And I think.

Payman Langroudi: So. Has this been a series of complaints to the GDC [00:53:10] from people like that? Yeah, yeah. So do you think you rub those people up the wrong way, or do [00:53:15] you think it’s. I mean, I know you’re probably an easy target. Yeah, I get it. Yeah, I get [00:53:20] that. But are you rubbing people up the wrong way? Are you firing people in an aggressive [00:53:25] way or, you know, to get a series?

Ashkan Pitchforth: No, I think I think the thing [00:53:30] is the difference. I think for me, in terms of in [00:53:35] terms of recruitment and organisation, is that a lot of people, what they would do is when they hire someone [00:53:40] and they’re not fit for the role, they don’t [00:53:45] end it straight away. They give that person a chance. So many [00:53:50] chances. Yeah. And then over a period of a year, there’s no improvement. [00:53:55] And that person that’s hired them ends up doing the job anyway. Yeah. And you’ve got nowhere. Then you’re firing them after a year. [00:54:00] So you might as well do it after two days. Yeah. There’s there’s no point stringing someone along for that [00:54:05] period of time. Yeah. And I’m quite quick in the sense that if they take them on, if I spend time with someone, [00:54:10] if I, if I clock their ethos, their vision is not aligned with mine, there’s no point in continuing. [00:54:15] So let’s just call it quits. Um, and I think also so that’s, that’s one [00:54:20] flip side of the coin and the other flip side of coin, which we don’t do now. No person in our organisation is a locum. [00:54:25] We hired a lot of locums in the past. A lot of locum dentists, some of them are great. I’ve worked [00:54:30] with some locums that stayed with me for, you know, ten years and then converted to [00:54:35] become almost like a permanent associate. But a lot of locums out there, they just are just they’re locums [00:54:40] for a reason. They can’t get a permanent job because no one wants to have them permanently. And [00:54:45] they’re just God awful. And I tell them, because I’m a clinician myself, I just I’m not being funny. [00:54:50] But, you know, you were contracted to do, say, 30 Udas today. You’ve done two because you’ve [00:54:55] rebooked all of your band one scale and polishes. You had half an hour for an appointment. What was the [00:55:00] point of that? Because you just couldn’t be bothered. So and unfortunately, I tell them sometimes the truth [00:55:05] which they don’t want to.

Payman Langroudi: Hear, you’re a bit too direct.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I’m quite direct. I’m quite. Which is good in a way. Um, [00:55:10] and now everyone that everyone, everyone that works with me obviously is [00:55:15] the elite almost. And the thing that I get a lot of groups out there, [00:55:20] what they would do is they almost take people on because they’re desperate. Whereas I’m [00:55:25] always like, run it like a football team, you know? I will take you on if you pass the test. Almost. [00:55:30] If you’re good, you come in. If you’re not good, then why would I have you? You know, you don’t have a football team that’s made [00:55:35] up of 11 bad players. Um, your top squad? Almost. You want them to be the [00:55:40] elite so you can take on. There’s a lot of groups out there. Won’t. And so therefore we’re very I’m very [00:55:45] tight with that. But then again, those people that get then disgruntled and upset [00:55:50] because they had to be let go, their way of taking out their frustrations rather than reflecting and thinking, [00:55:55] you know, actually, what can I do to improve myself? They think, okay, let me just let me just if [00:56:00] you sent me an email that can possibly be twisted into sense that maybe [00:56:05] he was trying to be a bit sarcastic or a bit, you know, a bit eccentric, then maybe let’s send that [00:56:10] across.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And, and then the GDC kind of pick up on that. Oh, yeah. Well, you shouldn’t have said that. And, you [00:56:15] know, and my, my, my, my outside of work now it’s very hard to differentiate [00:56:20] between, you know, there’s a fine line, isn’t there, between who you are outside of work and who [00:56:25] you are inside of work. Especially given that my whole life is work. So then the fine [00:56:30] line gets crossed and my sense of humour is that of a Ricky Gervais. You know, [00:56:35] it’s quite, quite sarcastic, quite dark. I hate I don’t [00:56:40] like slapstick comedy. I like, I like intellectual comedy. [00:56:45] Um, unfortunately, then if you use that inside work, sometimes people take that in the wrong way [00:56:50] because they don’t understand that actually you’re coming across to be quite humorous and quite witty in that sort of [00:56:55] thing. Um, so that’s another thing I’ve learned over the period of time, is that sometimes you’ve actually almost got [00:57:00] to be, which frustrates me. You’ve got to be. You’ve got to almost be an actor when you’re in work. Sometimes [00:57:05] you can’t let out your true self in all, in all things. But, [00:57:10] um, well.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s interesting. It’s it’s the difference between a small Start-Up. [00:57:15] Yes. Yeah. And where you literally can do whatever you like. And that’s almost [00:57:20] the brilliant part about it. You’re almost like a it’s almost a piece of art [00:57:25] where you’re kind of expressing yourself. Yeah. And a corporate, which is [00:57:30] what you are where it’s very different. Right? Very, very different. [00:57:35] And, you know, you’re right. You learn as you as you as you go through it. I’m the [00:57:40] same as you. I’ve said things that I shouldn’t have said or or whatever. Um, [00:57:45] but you come to learn that, you know, even body language is gigantic. [00:57:50] It’s a gigantic thing. Yeah. Yeah. Little wave. It’s a huge thing. [00:57:55]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. No.

Payman Langroudi: It’s true.

Ashkan Pitchforth: It’s true. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, but, you know, [00:58:00] I, I want to get back to the GDC thing. So what what is going to happen [00:58:05] next? You’re in the middle of it.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. So I think I’ve got interim or [00:58:10] interim committee hearing or orders. Committee is the end of June. [00:58:15] And that decides whether they need to put any sanctions. And then hopefully there won’t [00:58:20] be any. Apart from maybe, um, continuance of testing. Clean [00:58:25] for steroids, which is what I’m doing now, is fine. And then I think the actual final [00:58:30] hearing probably will come a year down the line. But again, you [00:58:35] know, it doesn’t it doesn’t. Whatever conditions they put on now won’t affect me doing the [00:58:40] job I’m doing. That’s the difference. That’s the thing because it’s not patient related. And that’s why it’s kind of [00:58:45] they’re having difficulty because they can’t get involved in the commercial side. They can’t tell you. Oh by the way, don’t [00:58:50] send an email to a staff member. Yeah [00:58:55] that’s the thing. And if I go into so I think one of the allegations, which I think is absolutely ludicrous, [00:59:00] is I tore down a poster in a practice. Right. [00:59:05] So I mean, I mean, that’s a bit pathetic.

Payman Langroudi: Pulled it off the wall. [00:59:10]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, right. Now what they don’t realise.

Payman Langroudi: Is that good with.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Them. Well, yeah. Exactly. But also [00:59:15] what they don’t realise is, is that I’m particular. So if there’s going to be any, anything displayed in a practice. It has [00:59:20] to meet the it has to be approved because it could be wrong information. And also it has to look nice. It has to be laminated. It can’t [00:59:25] just be a shitty bit of paper. And I went into one practice [00:59:30] in in Southampton, and the manager at the time decided to display something that [00:59:35] was completely non-compliant. So I just went up to it and I just went and took it down. I just [00:59:40] literally just. But yeah, because it was stuck up there. So obviously he’s not got pins in it. So I’m gently [00:59:45] undo the pins. I went in there and said, what’s this? Who done this? Oh, I did this. I said, you do realise this actually is [00:59:50] not in part of the regulations what you’ve written? And then he was like, oh, oh yeah. I didn’t realise I was like, [00:59:55] okay, but I’ve got to take it down. And I took it down. But obviously because he left in a bad way, he said, oh, he came in and [01:00:00] tore down a poster. So again, it’s this, it’s these pathetic kind of like things [01:00:05] that if the GDC actually looked into this and sat down with a case examiner, [01:00:10] with clinical dentists, with people who have knowledge and, and say, actually, okay, what is it exactly that [01:00:15] happened? So not what’s portrayed that happen because someone’s peed off. Because obviously we had to let that manager go. [01:00:20]

Ashkan Pitchforth: He was useless. Um, and funny enough, he goes and works for some of [01:00:25] our competitors. You know, who we turf out, and other people that are desperate end up taking in, [01:00:30] um, and, um, they don’t look at it and say, actually, what’s, what’s really happened [01:00:35] and then look and look at and think, actually, this is fine. This is not bad. This is okay. [01:00:40] This is what happens. This is normal. Well, how would you how would you expect him to have got rid of that. [01:00:45] And he needed to get rid of that there and then because it was non-compliant. So he had to take it down immediately. It [01:00:50] was stuck with Sellotape. So he had to tear it off the wall. It’s his building. [01:00:55] He owns the place. It’s not someone else’s. What should [01:01:00] he do at the dead of night where no one sees? Because I think that’s what the other allegation was. He tore down [01:01:05] a post in front of patients. Yeah. And also it was an A4 piece of paper. [01:01:10] So it wasn’t a great big poster like you probably have visited me gripping this great big thing and tearing it down, this paper [01:01:15] flying everywhere. And patients are you know, it’s falling onto patients and God knows what’s happening. It’s not any [01:01:20] of that stuff. It’s just such a simple thing that they just. But unfortunately, when you rise [01:01:25] up in the world, some of the regulators like to bring you back down and just [01:01:30] kind of.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, dude, but do you accept that sometimes the way [01:01:35] you say something or the way you do something affects [01:01:40] the situation more? I mean, we can clinically look at it and [01:01:45] say, well, what happened? He took a poster down from his own building. Yeah, I accept that. That’s the way you’re [01:01:50] going to talk about it when someone’s accusing you of something. But but do you also acknowledge [01:01:55] the other side of it that, you know, you can say the same thing twice in two different [01:02:00] ways and have a totally different effect on someone? Do you accept [01:02:05] it?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, yeah I do, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think sometimes the sarcasm or something rub people up?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, [01:02:10] that’s why I don’t do that. Yeah. I mean when it comes to the sarcasm now I don’t, I don’t. I’ve [01:02:15] learned a lot. Um, but unfortunately, what’s done is done. And you’ve got to kind of. Then just [01:02:20] accept it, move on, change a bit. Um, but now I can understand that sometimes [01:02:25] some of the things might have. You know, impacted people, [01:02:30] but it’s only been for the greater good of the organisation [01:02:35] and the patients at the end of the day, as opposed to anything else but that. Um, so, [01:02:40] so so yeah. But no, I do accept it. Of course. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Why are you so happy to talk about [01:02:45] all this? Is it? Do you feel like there’s information about [01:02:50] you that people should know or like or. I mean, you’re right [01:02:55] in that. It sounds. Some of it sounds very petty. Yeah. And the fact that our, you know, our, our [01:03:00] governing bodies sort of talking about posters and so it’s [01:03:05] a bit mad. It’s a bit mad. Yeah. Is that why you’re happy to talk about it? I mean, like, most [01:03:10] people don’t want to talk about their that GDC situation.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Why? That’s the thing. Really? Once, [01:03:15] you know, um, be honest, be open and talk about it so other [01:03:20] people learn maybe from it. Um, and also it’s not it’s not embarrassing. [01:03:25] If you do something in life, then own it, stand up and own it. Um, and [01:03:30] you know, you’re always going to come across hurdles, regulatory problems, issues, whether it’s the NHS, [01:03:35] CQC, GDC, you shouldn’t be embarrassed by anything that you do. Um, [01:03:40] I’m not embarrassed about anything I do in life because this is part of the journey of life. You [01:03:45] know, sometimes there’s been embarrassing situations, but that probably we all embarrassed [01:03:50] about. But then you can still laugh about it. There’s still still some, uh, some some humour [01:03:55] in everything. If you find the humour in something, then it makes things better. Um, so [01:04:00] I’m. Yeah. I’m not. I’m quite flamboyant in that way. I’ll talk about anything [01:04:05] that involves myself. Um, of course, if something involves or there’s a connection [01:04:10] with someone else, then I have to. Not because that’s that’s their gig and I don’t want to breach their confidentiality [01:04:15] and things like that. But for my own stuff, I’m all happy to chat about [01:04:20] anything.

Payman Langroudi: On this pod. We like to talk about mistakes.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well, [01:04:25] firstly, what was the darkest day in this journey? [01:04:30] This ten year journey?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Wow. I mean, the darkest [01:04:35] day in this ten year journey was, was it was kind of beginning of June [01:04:40] 23rd.

Payman Langroudi: That clawback situation.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. That was the that [01:04:45] was the dark, you know. So I had a I had to [01:04:50] on the 26th of March 23. Um, obviously when I was, you [01:04:55] know, steroid up to the lines, you know, um, had had had more, [01:05:00] had had more steroids in me than a horse, to be honest. Um, you know, I had [01:05:05] a I had to have a cardioversion, you know, I had atrial fibrillation. So my heart just hit [01:05:10] 200 beats per minute and wouldn’t stop.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Wouldn’t stop for about 2 [01:05:15] or 3 days. Then I collapsed at work. Had to go to hospital and [01:05:20] they tried to reverse it by the normal routes, you know, um, giving you the drugs and [01:05:25] everything. Obviously, in order to try and almost, like, settle your heart. Nothing worked. And then [01:05:30] the. I remember the A&E doctor peering over me at the time, and he said, right, we’re going to have to, um, [01:05:35] we’re gonna have to sedate you. Stop your heart and [01:05:40] then use a defib to restart it.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my God.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And I remember looking up at him, um, [01:05:45] and I said, well, what about if you can’t restart my heart? And then I can’t remember anything after [01:05:50] that, because then they just gave me the drug and had to do it because I was getting really bad at that point in time. And then there [01:05:55] were some people, obviously, that came to the hospital that were called because I was at work. So the clinical director was there, [01:06:00] Emil, and he called um, my colleagues at the time obviously turned up [01:06:05] and ex-girlfriend and apparently I was. It didn’t reach my heart. [01:06:10] Did not restart for about half an hour. They just couldn’t restart it. Um, [01:06:15] so I came out of that, um, and [01:06:20] that was in March. And then two months later, then my ex-girlfriend [01:06:25] of two years walking out, just literally I went to work one day, came back and she just vanished and gone. [01:06:30] Tried to make contact with her and nothing. So she gave up. So [01:06:35] I felt quite on my own at that point in time, very much on my own. And then.

Payman Langroudi: The clawback [01:06:40] situation was ongoing, and.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Then the clawback then hit after that. Literally a week later, we had, you know, we [01:06:45] had to deal with that. And the bank and I had to raise an incredible amount of money in [01:06:50] a very short space of time, which I didn’t have.

Payman Langroudi: And we [01:06:55] got three, £4 million you needed by day after tomorrow.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No, I mean, [01:07:00] it was. Yeah, it’s pretty much. Yeah, it was pretty much that. It was pretty much an impossible task, [01:07:05] an impossible task. And I remember it. Got it, got it. Got so dark. And [01:07:10] I’ve never had this thought in my life at that point in time. I just thought, what’s the point of being here anymore, really? [01:07:15] Because I can’t fix this now. I can’t actually fix this problem. I cannot fix it. [01:07:20] And I was and I felt so alone. And even though I was able, [01:07:25] I could share elements to the senior leadership team. You know, there’s some things you [01:07:30] don’t want to you don’t want to tell him because you just might think, well, even they might think, oh, you know what’s going to happen.

Payman Langroudi: Want [01:07:35] to spook them?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ashkan Pitchforth: So I was on my own I who what could I do? [01:07:40] I’d run out of all the options. And it’s at that point in time. Then I [01:07:45] almost reached out to my ex-wife, um, who’s [01:07:50] the co-founder and also co-owns the whole group as well. Um, [01:07:55] he doesn’t he doesn’t get involved with the commercial aspects of running the business, but has always been there as [01:08:00] an advisor and all this kind of stuff reached out to her. And at that point in time, I wasn’t seeing my kids as well. And [01:08:05] and she just changed it all. She just she helped. She was [01:08:10] there, started getting me clean from that point in time. You know, I think you know, what? You you know, you’ve [01:08:15] now got to sort yourself out basically. That was the kind of the, you know, when they talk about the [01:08:20] lowest point in your life, that was the low the lowest point in my life. And she fixed it all. She, she, [01:08:25] she just did everything and recharged me, almost like reignited the fire to say that. Actually, you know what? [01:08:30] You think you can’t raise this money. You can raise this money. You know, I’m not going to tell you to do it because I don’t know how to do it. Almost. [01:08:35] But, um, I can help to some degree. And I can do this, this, this, and and then I [01:08:40] just it’s almost like she just opened my eyes to be able to do that. So that was the lowest, [01:08:45] the lowest point of my whole life, let alone the career journey, the whole point of my life, because [01:08:50] I’ve never felt like I didn’t want to be on this earth at that time, but I did at that point.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you’ve [01:08:55] got to take your hat off to her.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: 101 one has to take [01:09:00] one’s hat off to her, insomuch as That’s you. That’s your ex-wife you’re talking about. That’s not your wife. Yeah. I mean, [01:09:05] often even your wife might not be able to rise to that occasion, but your ex-wife rising [01:09:10] to that occasion.

Ashkan Pitchforth: But she also does it with she. And that’s the [01:09:15] thing with this organisation is that. I sometimes. [01:09:20] Yeah, I take the, the brunt of the, the bad stuff, but also I take all the, all [01:09:25] the good stuff. So I’m the one up there winning all the awards and getting the pat on the back from [01:09:30] the banks. And you know, everyone that’s looking in and thinking, oh great, what you’ve done. But [01:09:35] she, she does everything without wanting that recognition. Yeah. I [01:09:40] think that’s incredible.

Payman Langroudi: But she still owns half of it. Does she.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. Yeah. She owns [01:09:45] owns half of it. And I mean, she, to be honest with you, with what she’s done, she deserves all of it. Honestly, [01:09:50] she does. You know, I just deserve to be employed as the CEO. And she deserves [01:09:55] to be the 100% shareholder and 100% of everything. You know, her involvement in the [01:10:00] crucial bits. And but that’s that’s why it’s so important to have a I think [01:10:05] someone that co-owns it or co shareholder, things like that, someone that looks at it from an outside point of view. [01:10:10]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you’re right that the question of should you even have a partner. Business partner. [01:10:15] Um I find it in, in the when things are bad, it’s [01:10:20] that loneliness you’re talking about, that loneliness is the issue. [01:10:25] Because, as you say, sometimes even your most senior staff can’t [01:10:30] help. Yeah, often.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No.

Payman Langroudi: That’s true. Whereas when things really. When the shit [01:10:35] really hits the fan. Yeah, I’m calling my my business partner and we’re like sharing [01:10:40] that. Yeah. That situation, even though that means that we have to split the profits half and half. And [01:10:45] we’re actually four people. So, you know, a quarter each, um, [01:10:50] it’s still worth it. It’s still worth it. Often, often, you know, in accelerator programs [01:10:55] they tell people to bring on a co co-founder. Yes. Um, because you need the [01:11:00] different skill sets, right?

Ashkan Pitchforth: You do? I mean, she’s earned that also, right? Because she did [01:11:05] work her socks off at the start when we were associates, invested, as we both did, obviously, because it [01:11:10] was joint income almost. And and we have we share kids together and she you know, she [01:11:15] looks after them. She also works clinically as well. You know, a couple of days a week. Um, and [01:11:20] um, you know, does audits and things that she needs to do. Um, so she does her part. She’s not, [01:11:25] you know, this silent, silent housewife or something like that stays at home like that. So I [01:11:30] still as my wife sometimes, but, um, um, but yes, she’s, she’s done her [01:11:35] part, but she’s, she’s, she’s, she’s, she’s been there the right time and she and and she [01:11:40] knows I don’t know, she can almost sense it if I phone her or I text [01:11:45] her, she can sense if there’s something that I need help with, which I think is, [01:11:50] is incredible. But then she’s learnt.

Payman Langroudi: She knows you.

Ashkan Pitchforth: She knows she knows more [01:11:55] than anyone. Yeah. 13 years of developing and knowing me and [01:12:00] being with me. This is a long time, you know.

Payman Langroudi: And do you see your kids now?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah [01:12:05] I do. Not as much, I’d hope, because I’m working. Working so hard, so much. But I do, [01:12:10] I do. And this great, great, great time to spend time with them and to see them grow and develop [01:12:15] and mature as adults. Well, not adults yet, but as they go in. [01:12:20]

Payman Langroudi: And what’s your advice to your kids regarding career? Would you tell them to [01:12:25] become dentists if they asked you?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Um, it’s I just always say do something that [01:12:30] you love to do, which is what was different to what I was told back [01:12:35] in the day, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, the reality of it is, you know, you might be lucky, you might have a kid who really [01:12:40] does love something. But the reality is, most kids don’t know what the hell you know, they have no idea.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No. At the [01:12:45] moment they don’t.

Payman Langroudi: So. So then they kind of are looking to you for guidance. [01:12:50] Not not necessarily come to you and say, guide me, but you’re saying to them, alright, it’s A-levels [01:12:55] now. Yes. Which A-levels do you want to do? And they’re like no. Yeah. And then it’s that goes to [01:13:00] which career do you want. Yeah. I don’t know. Yeah. So then you’re kind of forced to guide. [01:13:05] Yes. Yeah. So okay. Do what you love. But just [01:13:10] specifically dentistry. Because I get two types of people sitting in front of me here, literally [01:13:15] some who adore it and would love it for their kids, and then some who [01:13:20] specifically don’t want their kids to go into it.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Then when kids go into.

Payman Langroudi: It, what do you think? I [01:13:25] mean, it’s giving you so much, right?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, it’s it’s it’s it’s.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got a love hate [01:13:30] relationship with it yourself, right? With all this GDC stuff going on.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I think people like, are you stressed with the GDC? [01:13:35] I’m like, no, not really. Why would I be stressed?

Payman Langroudi: It’s not stressing you.

Ashkan Pitchforth: It doesn’t stress me out. It’s it’s the [01:13:40] unknown. I don’t like the unknown, you know, because it’s a it’s a it’s a process I’m going through. I’ve never been [01:13:45] before. And and you know, if I come out the other end, you know, I don’t really want to go through it again. [01:13:50] But if I had to go through it again, I would know the process. I would be less stressed. I’m very stressed because I don’t know the process. [01:13:55] That’s the only thing I think that stresses people out in life is you don’t know. Actually, it’s like doing your first composite. You know, [01:14:00] you’ve never done it before, but doing your one millionth composite, there’s no stress because you’ve done it so many times. Stress [01:14:05] is stress is a relation to actually unpredictability. Exactly. Rather than actually being [01:14:10] a difficult task. Um, so so no, I’m not stressed whatsoever when it comes to [01:14:15] the GDC. Um, no, I yeah, I know it’s I know it’s a cop out on me saying just [01:14:20] love what you do, but.

Payman Langroudi: But dentistry yes or no? [01:14:25]

Ashkan Pitchforth: If they love it, then yes.

Payman Langroudi: How do they know whether they love it? They’ve got [01:14:30] no idea.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No they won’t. No no no they won’t.

Payman Langroudi: I mean look they won’t, they try. You know, there’s that classic question. [01:14:35] What would you be if you weren’t a dentist. Yeah. Someone asked me that. I might say, I don’t know, architect. [01:14:40] Yeah, yeah, but I don’t know at all what it’s like to be an architect. Yeah, I kind of like pretty buildings. [01:14:45] Yeah, but that’s not being an architect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:14:50] So there’s no way of knowing. So then they rely on you for advice. Yeah. [01:14:55] I mean, I mean, I’m interested in people who say, no, I definitely don’t want my kid to be a dentist. [01:15:00] Why not? Like, what’s the problem?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. I [01:15:05] mean, you know, I don’t have a problem with the career, you know? I know it’s I know [01:15:10] it can be tough. It can. It can be tough with the regulations that are there and the patients and the, um, [01:15:15] the demands of the job. But then equally, you [01:15:20] know, it’s a it’s a most of the time it’s 9 to 5. Yeah. You know, we’re sitting down, [01:15:25] we’re just using a, we’re just doing a bit of.

Payman Langroudi: And by the way, making the amount of money that dentists can [01:15:30] make is very hard to do in other things. Yes. So [01:15:35] it’s not like dentistry is tough, but it’s not like earning I don’t know. What did what [01:15:40] did what does the practice make? 200 grand or something? 200 grand. In other professions is [01:15:45] easy. I mean, there’s no there’s no way of easily earning 200 grand for for for [01:15:50] an average person. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and the nice thing with dentistry is almost. [01:15:55] There’s a few simple rules. Don’t piss off your patients. Don’t piss off your staff. Yeah. [01:16:00] Like, simple as that.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I’ve done that.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got 300 to worry about, though. Yeah. [01:16:05] That’s like it’s different. Most dentists one practice. Don’t piss off your patients. Don’t [01:16:10] hurt people. Be honest. Be nice. Yeah. And, uh, you know, they can make it, whereas, I don’t [01:16:15] know, let’s say your passion was marketing. Earning 200 grand in marketing. Hard, [01:16:20] man. You’ve got to be head of marketing for Procter and Gamble. Maybe. Yeah. Or some sort of performance [01:16:25] marketer on the internet selling some item that, you know, you’ve got. There’s a massive skill set there. Yeah. [01:16:30]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah, I would, I’d, I’d I reckon I’m trying to push my daughter. [01:16:35] I think it’s a very good job for a daughter.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: For, for a girl.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. I just don’t know if [01:16:40] I can even say that these days, you know, refer to people by their gender. I just, you know.

Payman Langroudi: More rules. [01:16:45]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, exactly. And I just, you know, I, I’ve, I, uh, yeah, I got [01:16:50] to be careful with how you word things, but. Yeah. Now, of course I agree. For a female, it’s [01:16:55] a, it’s a flexibility. It’s brilliant. Yeah. The flexibility for like three days part time around [01:17:00] kids around schools. Yeah. It’s great. You know.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk errors now. Clinical [01:17:05] errors. What comes to mind. What was your most difficult patient or your biggest [01:17:10] clinical error or something you learned clinically from as an error?

Ashkan Pitchforth: I think the [01:17:15] worst thing was the I think very shortly after coming [01:17:20] out of uni, um, giving an ID block on a patient, just [01:17:25] a guy who was 60, um, I think a bit of high blood pressure or something like that, [01:17:30] and then gave him an ID block and then he. And sometimes it happens, isn’t it? I mean, it doesn’t happen [01:17:35] now because I’m more experienced what I do, an aspirate and all that kind of stuff. And then he was like, oh, my heart feels a bit [01:17:40] racy. You know, you’re like, oh, it’s fine. It’s just because there’s a bit of adrenaline in the anaesthetic, it will calm down. [01:17:45] And then five minutes later. How are you feeling, sir? No, no, it’s still still racing. And then [01:17:50] that’s a bit strange and. Okay, have a seat in the waiting room. Let’s not do the filling yet. We’ll just see how things go. Checked [01:17:55] on in on him about 20 minutes later. How are you feeling? I know my heart feels bad. My heart feels bad. I’m just going to go home. I’m [01:18:00] just gonna go home. I don’t feel right, you know? Oh, okay. And then he [01:18:05] goes home and then you think, oh, it’s a bit strange because usually it dissolves quite quick. [01:18:10] Usually. Yeah. Clears up, you know, the racing feeling, you know, and then, but then not thinking too [01:18:15] much into it and then phoning him that afternoon because that happened in the morning. No answer. [01:18:20] Okay. And then came in to work the next day and I said, can you give him [01:18:25] a call just to see if he’s alright? Called him. No answer.

Payman Langroudi: Jesus.

Ashkan Pitchforth: The afternoon called him. No [01:18:30] answer. I’m thinking, okay, maybe he’s maybe he’s not there. Okay. So. Okay, let’s let’s do it. Maybe two days. Let’s not hound [01:18:35] the guy, you know, two days later, call him again. No answer. I’m thinking, well, I mean, unless [01:18:40] I physically go to his house, I don’t know what else I can do. Um. And [01:18:45] then just nothing happened. And I saw the guy six months later, [01:18:50] came in for a check-up and then sat down. I was like, oh, so [01:18:55] you got back your filling. You know, because as you can see on the treatment plan, it’s still it’s still there. I don’t need to do [01:19:00] this filling. And he was like, he was like, yeah, things went a bit wrong after the injection last time. I was like, what [01:19:05] do you mean went wrong? Well, um, yeah, I went home and I had a full on heart attack, and [01:19:10] I’d been in hospital for for 2 or 3 weeks. And like, you’re looking, thinking shit, [01:19:15] was that was that me? And then I was like, oh my God. I’m like, [01:19:20] I’m. First thing I just said was, I’m sorry. You know, you just admit it. I’m really sorry. It [01:19:25] was. Did the doctor say that was because the injection? They said, well, he’s like they said it could [01:19:30] have been. It could have been the injection. But I’m I’m here now and you know, you know, just [01:19:35] just.

Payman Langroudi: Calm about it.

Ashkan Pitchforth: You know. And he stayed my patient until I stopped working in that practice. I [01:19:40] retired clinically, you know. So he’s my patient for a good ten years after that. [01:19:45] So the trust was still there. And then I remember then obviously finding out my identity when I was 18, when he left [01:19:50] and said, you know, is that a possibility? I could have caused this guy to have a heart attack. And they’re like, well, you could have done if [01:19:55] you didn’t aspirate. You injected the whole volume into his, uh, in he could have, [01:20:00] you know, into his blood. He could have he could have triggered, um, and then you just think, wow. Yeah. [01:20:05] Okay. But now I’ve got to be. So I think for a good, like.

Payman Langroudi: Think back to all the ID blocks you’d given.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And [01:20:10] then for good six years after that, I think I just used scandalous, a plain anaesthetic [01:20:15] for an ID block. I didn’t even use anything with adrenaline, you know, I was I just was like, right, I’m not [01:20:20] doing anything. You know, I’d have to give two to make it work. Now, you know, I can give it as an [01:20:25] ID block and it’s fine because you learn. You learn when the vascular stuff is and [01:20:30] you become so experienced in doing it over time. But at the start you don’t. And obviously. And they don’t [01:20:35] teach you how to aspirate university. They tell you aspirate, you see blood. You think, well, where.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’ve never [01:20:40] seen it.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Where do I see anything? You know? The patient’s tongue’s in the way. It’s dark, you know. They’re moving around. You [01:20:45] get an idea, like, oh, sometimes they’re moving, you know? How am I going to see anything? They don’t [01:20:50] teach you that. So you’ve got to learn that for experience. I think that was one of the real sticking points, because it [01:20:55] was a possibly a direct consequence of what I’d done, which was a mistake, [01:21:00] could have had a significant impact on someone’s life or it actually did. To be fair. [01:21:05] Um, but then again, you treat the patient with the dignity and respect that they deserve, and they still [01:21:10] keep going. He didn’t not come back to see me. You know, he kept on coming back and he trusted [01:21:15] me.

Payman Langroudi: What about what about one like that that did get pissed off. Like a management issue. Patient management issue. [01:21:20] Do you remember a case like that? Because that sounds like, in a way. I mean, it’s not a happy ending, but [01:21:25] kind of a happy ending. Anyone? Where where you you made an [01:21:30] error in terms of the way you managed the patient. And they lost [01:21:35] confidence, let’s say.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Mhm. Well [01:21:40] I know I’ve kind of.

Payman Langroudi: What about by the way within the group. How many [01:21:45] dentists. 200.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Wow. I mean we.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a continuing ongoing complaints [01:21:50] all.

Ashkan Pitchforth: The time. Yeah. I mean they all make mistakes and. Yeah. Jeez, Louise. I mean there’s.

Payman Langroudi: So do you have to get involved [01:21:55] in all of that?

Ashkan Pitchforth: No. Um, the clinical directors deal with the majority of those, but, yeah, the more serious ones. [01:22:00] And, yeah, I get involved in, like.

Payman Langroudi: Many, many, many things must have happened within the group. Right.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. Things [01:22:05] happened like a a practitioner clinician dropping a crown down a patient’s throat because they were trying [01:22:10] to put it back on and didn’t realise actually that it’s been, you know, it’s gone down, it’s gone [01:22:15] into the trachea, you know. Not sending them to hospital there and then sending them home. And then two [01:22:20] days later the patient’s in, in, in hospital having thoracic surgery to have it removed, you [01:22:25] know, so so obviously they don’t work for me anymore. Um, but then yeah, seeing off the back of that [01:22:30] the complaints and the how it was managed and dealing with that and then, um, so, [01:22:35] so yeah, we, I see wow I see some interesting things. Some very interesting. [01:22:40] But then some things that just go wrong. That’s not the patients. So not the clinicians fault. [01:22:45] Like like like a dentist removing a six. Extracting a six. It’s [01:22:50] nowhere near the near the ID canal. So it’s a routine [01:22:55] extraction. And then the patient has parasthesia after that for the lip and [01:23:00] then blaming the dentist for the for not assessing it correctly and thinking it’s nowhere near [01:23:05] that. I can see on your periapical I can see with the ID canal is so you know, there’s it’s [01:23:10] just one of those things.

Payman Langroudi: What about business decisions that you’ve made? [01:23:15] I’d like to hear both like one that stands out as like, I made a great decision to [01:23:20] do X and one that stands out as I shouldn’t have done that. Um. [01:23:25]

Ashkan Pitchforth: A great business.

Payman Langroudi: When you’ve bought this many practices, there must have been some interesting [01:23:30] stories or or opportunities that something you spotted that the next [01:23:35] man wouldn’t or.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. Um, that’s an interesting question. I think, um. [01:23:40] I think the, the worst [01:23:45] business decision was which which didn’t help this clawback situation. And [01:23:50] the deficit we’re in was when I spent £1 million in cash on our last practice [01:23:55] outright. Bought outright. Yep. Uh, on the promise [01:24:00] that the bank would reinvest, almost refund that, you know, [01:24:05] inject a further million in because it was coming quite close to the completion date was being delayed and delayed [01:24:10] and delayed. And then when I eventually went back to the bank and said, oh, you know, can you come [01:24:15] through on your word? They said, no, no, I’m not going to. And it was like.

Payman Langroudi: You were expecting a [01:24:20] million more.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I’ve just spent I’ve just spent the last million, actually, that I had in the bank. Uh, and I was, you [01:24:25] know, so so that was trusting the trusting obviously people.

Payman Langroudi: Like, with the relationship with the bank, [01:24:30] is it the same bank that you’ve had all along or have you used different? No. [01:24:35]

Ashkan Pitchforth: We switched. We have switched. So we have been to we have gone from like Wesleyan to [01:24:40] Metrobank to Santander. Um, at the moment with Santander, [01:24:45] we’re now we’re now on a on a refinance journey with, with another bank. Um, [01:24:50] so you do you do deal with many as you go along.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, in that situation, is [01:24:55] it like the trust between you and the other individual?

Ashkan Pitchforth: No, not necessarily, because the thing [01:25:00] is, is that when you you have a trust relationship with your business, relationship [01:25:05] manager at the bank. Yeah. But behind them sits a credit team and. [01:25:10]

Payman Langroudi: Control over that.

Ashkan Pitchforth: And they, they analyse risk in a whole different way and they [01:25:15] sometimes don’t look at certain things. So when we went [01:25:20] for our tough time with the bank, um, I said to the bank guys, I [01:25:25] can get this back. I can go from being underperforming at 65% year end to 110%. [01:25:30] I need you to trust me and the relationship manager saying, Will I trust you, ash? But [01:25:35] the team behind me don’t trust you because they see see it as a risk. You’ve underperformed. How are you [01:25:40] going to flip it around? Um, so so that’s that’s the problem. So so [01:25:45] then you’ve got a and because you can never talk to them, you can never talk to a credit team. They sit [01:25:50] in literally like almost like a dark room. Um, and, and you just hope and [01:25:55] they just look at KPIs. Yeah. That’s all they look at the KPIs, the figures, [01:26:00] the stats. That’s all they look at. They don’t look at hearsay or potential or visions or strategic [01:26:05] planning. They look at figures, facts, and that’s it. [01:26:10] Um, and they base their assessments based on that. So I think that was kind of one of the worst, worst [01:26:15] business decisions. I think the best business decision, I think the model that we’re running [01:26:20] at the moment. I think the epiphany moment, the epiphany time of, I.

Payman Langroudi: Mean, it’s [01:26:25] staggering difference in figures, right?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Figures are just staggering difference. [01:26:30] And now we have people asking, you know, I wrote a 30 page [01:26:35] dossier almost on how to do it. The secret sauce. And it’s [01:26:40] we have, you know, p firms out there that backing, you know, these corporate organisations [01:26:45] that have a 7% EBITDA, you know, group level. And they just just [01:26:50] how can we have a meeting please. Because, you know, I need to understand what my team that I’ve backed [01:26:55] is doing wrong, considering what you’ve you’re doing and your outcomes are the same, if not [01:27:00] better in terms of your patient, outcomes are the same, if not better. But your.

Payman Langroudi: Business.

Ashkan Pitchforth: But your business outcomes [01:27:05] are just far improved. So yeah, we have people knocking on the door now saying, you know, we want to know what the secret [01:27:10] sauce is.

Payman Langroudi: So then going forward, what’s going to be the situation. Are [01:27:15] you looking for an exit now. Are you looking for [01:27:20] PE.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No no.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No. Any of that. Any of those?

Payman Langroudi: Are you looking for what? What are [01:27:25] you looking for? Like, what would it take for you to leave this business?

Ashkan Pitchforth: My death.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [01:27:30]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: If I said billion dollars, you wouldn’t take it.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No. What would I do with $1 [01:27:35] billion?

Payman Langroudi: Another business? Different business?

Ashkan Pitchforth: No, but then I wouldn’t be happy with it.

Payman Langroudi: Get into fashion or something. [01:27:40] I wouldn’t.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I wouldn’t be happy with the staff. You know, the thing is, the thing is, is that. [01:27:45]

Payman Langroudi: So then what is going to happen? What does the future look like? I mean, what would be your perfect outcome [01:27:50] in ten years time?

Ashkan Pitchforth: So what are we going for the moment? Its growth. Its [01:27:55] growth number. Number level growth training. Um, our new head office obviously has a training [01:28:00] facility, which should be built in about a month’s time and really, really improving the quality, continuing to improve the quality [01:28:05] of the clinicians that we have. Really reinvest heavily in them. Um, and, [01:28:10] um, so, I mean, ten years from now, potentially, we might start again another journey of acquisitions, [01:28:15] take it from 24 upwards. But I would never sell my soul at the moment to a PE firm. I wouldn’t [01:28:20] sell out at the moment either. Um, because we just.

Payman Langroudi: Depend on the figure.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Even [01:28:25] if the figure was incredible, I it just wouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: You’re just loving it.

Ashkan Pitchforth: You just wouldn’t happen because I’d [01:28:30] be bored, you know? And and also the relationships I have with the staff [01:28:35] and the individual. And at the end of the day, you know, it’s [01:28:40] a the the. The [01:28:45] group is reflection of my almost like my lifelong work. It’s almost [01:28:50] like I see myself as an artist. I mean, I would love to have been an artist.

Payman Langroudi: Your magnum opus?

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. So. So this [01:28:55] is. This is what I’ve created. And if I was to just give it away, or even for many reasons.

Payman Langroudi: You could [01:29:00] become a real artist.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I would, yeah, but I do, I do that. I do that at the moment. I [01:29:05] do that in in my body art, you know, in the way I, the way I dress. Um, and, [01:29:10] uh, but yeah. So, um, no, I don’t think I would, I don’t think I would, I [01:29:15] would, I would, I would cash in cash in the chips.

Payman Langroudi: Just not for sale.

Ashkan Pitchforth: No, [01:29:20] of course not. Yeah, yeah, it’s not for sale.

Payman Langroudi: And the PE private equity situation. [01:29:25] You don’t want someone else telling you how to run. The thing is that is that the the point? [01:29:30] Yeah. Because because you could write. You could say, hey, let’s go for 75 [01:29:35] practices like this, this new business model. Yeah. Go and grab some money from a company, and. [01:29:40]

Ashkan Pitchforth: I’ll run with it.

Payman Langroudi: And.

Ashkan Pitchforth: We’ll make them a lot of money. We’ll make them rich. But the thing is, is that you’re [01:29:45] then putting constraints onto something on someone that’s a visionary, like, yeah, you can’t, [01:29:50] you can’t, you can’t constrain creativity because in that that means [01:29:55] that you’re driven by numbers, you’re not driven by the flow and what’s happening and and what [01:30:00] you want to do. You’re driven by something completely different. And that’s what we don’t want to be driven by. Because [01:30:05] when it becomes a numbers game, then it’s just it’s just it’s just producing numbers for a balance sheet for a PNL [01:30:10] to say, look, look at what we’ve achieved. And then it gets flipped, goes from one firm to another and [01:30:15] another to another, and it just continues and things like that. And, and I see, I see that in the downfall [01:30:20] of a lot of corporate groups out there, you know, um, that have almost sold [01:30:25] their souls to, to, to to an outside firm. [01:30:30]

Payman Langroudi: And I can imagine what I can’t imagine you in a board meetings where [01:30:35] they’re telling you what to do.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I know the things I can get told what to do, because the thing is, I get told what [01:30:40] to do by the banks and the NHS anyway. But the thing with me is that if I’m going to turn up to a board meeting, [01:30:45] don’t expect me to wear a suit.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t think that’s any more.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Don’t expect me. Don’t expect [01:30:50] me to. I mean, at the end of the day, if it’s hot, yes, I might sit there topless, you know, because [01:30:55] I need to be comfortable.

Payman Langroudi: South by southwest. Last week here and, um, the there were all these [01:31:00] tech bros everywhere, and hardly anyone was dressed up.

Ashkan Pitchforth: I know, but.

Payman Langroudi: The thing is, things have changed.

Ashkan Pitchforth: In [01:31:05] our industry. It hasn’t.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the things have changed. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, those guys want numbers. [01:31:10]

Ashkan Pitchforth: The numbers. But look at the CEO for. Am I allowed to say the names? Yeah. Portman [01:31:15] did. He did he turn up looking like me? No, no. You know Roderick’s no. [01:31:20] You know, um, uh, Gene Genius, you know. I don’t think.

Payman Langroudi: Anyone cares, though. I don’t [01:31:25] think anyone cares. That’s my point.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah. I mean, well, yeah, they they shouldn’t do it, but I think people don’t take you seriously [01:31:30] when they just. They see you see, you’re a bit different. I get that all the time. I get that all the time. Like. [01:31:35]

Payman Langroudi: Do you like that? Do you like.

Ashkan Pitchforth: People turn up to a meeting and I’m quiet and I think people look at me and think, [01:31:40] who the bloody hell? And then I start talking about the clauses in the NHS contract. And actually. [01:31:45] Is that right? Have you looked at like clause 75 and clause 42 and all this stuff. And they [01:31:50] think thinking this guy bloody.

Payman Langroudi: Does it somewhat drive you people underestimating you.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah [01:31:55] I think it, I think it does. I think it’s very it’s a yeah it does actually it makes it I.

Payman Langroudi: Feel like [01:32:00] you’re the kind of guy. If I said ash, you’ll never do X. You’ll just have to prove me wrong. [01:32:05] Like you never.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Ever.

Payman Langroudi: Berserk to prove me wrong.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, [01:32:10] exactly. I would. If anyone says you can never achieve something, that’s it.

Payman Langroudi: You’re [01:32:15] going.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Don’t ever say that to me. Because then it’ll be. I’ll make sure. Hook or crook. [01:32:20] I will make sure that I achieved that.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve come to the end of our time. It’s been it’s been an [01:32:25] enlightening conversation. I’ve enjoyed it. Um, we end with the same questions. [01:32:30] Well, actually, best best lecture you’ve ever been to. Can you think of that? [01:32:35] Dental lecture.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Dental. Yeah. I mean, it was it’s it’s [01:32:40] not a best one, but a series. Best one’s anatomy.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Back in uni, [01:32:45] fascinated by anatomy.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Ashkan Pitchforth: You know, again, it’s the muscles, the bodybuilding, [01:32:50] the the artistic, you know, going back to obviously like the Leonardo, Leonardo da Vinci [01:32:55] and Michelangelo days and the, the Caravaggio and the sculptures and learning about [01:33:00] how the deltoids look and the latissimus dorsi and all this kind of stuff and the obliques, [01:33:05] I don’t know, anatomy fascinated in and, you know, I loved those lectures. Love [01:33:10] those lectures, I loved them. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, final question [01:33:15] then. Fantasy dinner party. Three guests, dead [01:33:20] or alive? Who do you have?

Ashkan Pitchforth: I think it would be. One of them would be [01:33:25] Alexander McQueen.

Payman Langroudi: The designer.

Ashkan Pitchforth: The designer? The fashion designer I really like. I like [01:33:30] his.

Payman Langroudi: Cool dude.

Ashkan Pitchforth: His style, but also what he did. He was a pioneer, you know? He came from [01:33:35] again. He didn’t fit the mould. I relate to him quite a lot. He didn’t fit that mould. Um, [01:33:40] but then again, if you look at his journey, he did sell out and [01:33:45] he was doing something he didn’t want to do at the end. And maybe, I don’t know, maybe that led [01:33:50] to his his eventual death. You know, the suicide and things like that demise. So [01:33:55] yeah, it’d be good to chat to McQueen. I think the other person would be Mike Menzer. [01:34:00] I think Mike Menzer. Who’s that? He’s, um, he’s he’s one of the great [01:34:05] bodybuilding gurus back in the 1980s. So he was the one that that transformed [01:34:10] the idea of, you don’t have to go to the gym for three, four hours a day to look like Arnold [01:34:15] Schwarzenegger, which is obviously what he was even Arnold Schwarzenegger was doing at the time. He was like, you just need to go four times a [01:34:20] week for 30 minutes a day and you can still achieve the same physique. So he changed again.

Payman Langroudi: Pioneer. [01:34:25]

Ashkan Pitchforth: A pioneer of bodybuilding. Like difference. Again relating to that. [01:34:30] You know, the way we’ve done it in terms of like our business model and saying, okay, you don’t need to do this. You [01:34:35] know, let’s let’s flip it. Let’s change the way we’re looking at it. Um. And [01:34:40] yeah, I think the third [01:34:45] one is always yeah, yeah, it’s always been my ex-father-in-law, I think. Yeah, [01:34:50] I didn’t I didn’t have that final time with him, so it’d be good to. It [01:34:55] would be good to. Have done.

Payman Langroudi: That. [01:35:00]

Ashkan Pitchforth: Have that and just say sorry. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:35:05] been a massive pleasure, man. And thanks for doing it twice. Yeah. [01:35:10] And for being so open. And hopefully the GDC worries go away. I could see you running [01:35:15] a group of gyms, you know, like some sort of innovation [01:35:20] in that space.

Ashkan Pitchforth: Yeah, maybe let’s let’s do it together. Yeah. You can [01:35:25] whiten the teeth. You can lighten them and I’ll. And I’ll train them.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Well, thanks [01:35:30] so much for doing it.

[TRANSITION]: No thank you, thank you.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, [01:35:35] the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [01:35:40] in dentistry. Your hosts Payman [01:35:45] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. [01:35:50] If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from [01:35:55] me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has [01:36:00] had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

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