Payman Langroudi: This podcast comes to you from enlighten. Enlighten is an advanced teeth whitening system [00:00:05] that guarantees results on every single patient. We’ve treated hundreds of thousands of patients [00:00:10] now and have a really clear understanding of what it takes to get every patient to that delighted [00:00:15] state that we want to get to. If you want to understand teeth whitening in much further detail, join [00:00:20] us for online training only takes an hour completely free. Even if you never use [00:00:25] enlighten as a whitening system, you’ll learn loads and loads about whitening, how to talk about it, [00:00:30] how to involve your teams. Join us enlighten online training.com.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:40] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [00:00:45] leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Raj Ahluwalia onto the podcast. Raj is was a long time friend. [00:01:00] I think I’ve known you for at least 15 years longer than that.

Raj Ahlowia: It’s got to be more [00:01:05] like 20. Could be.

Payman Langroudi: Back in the rod. 30 days.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. Rod. Oh [00:01:10] my God. There’s a blast from the past.

Payman Langroudi: That was the first time I brought him here. Was 2005. [00:01:15]

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. So it was 20 years. Yeah, it is 20 years. Because I knew rod before [00:01:20] you brought him over from.

Payman Langroudi: Dental.

Raj Ahlowia: Town and we went out drinks, didn’t we? When he came over that [00:01:25] time. Yeah. With Hap as well. Yeah. With Hap. Yeah. Yeah. That’s right. Because me and Hap knew him from before.

Payman Langroudi: From [00:01:30] Dental town.

Raj Ahlowia: From before you brought him over. Yeah. So from the Dental town days. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Got [00:01:35] Dental town itself. Seems like a blast from the past.

Raj Ahlowia: Well, yeah, but that’s that’s the world [00:01:40] of the internet and, uh, apps, GDP, UK.

Payman Langroudi: Remember that? Still [00:01:45] there. You know.

Raj Ahlowia: Going on Dental town still exist as a thing. Does people still [00:01:50] use it?

Payman Langroudi: So I haven’t been for.

Raj Ahlowia: I haven’t been on it for 20 years.

Payman Langroudi: I think Howard does [00:01:55] a lot of stuff though. He does. He does This podcast. He does. He does. Uh, magazine. [00:02:00] Yeah, I’m sure it does exist.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah, I’m sure it does. I’m sure it does.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:02:05] this journey you’ve been on, it’s interesting. Right? I wanted you particularly [00:02:10] on for your.

Raj Ahlowia: First of all. Thank you for having me.

Payman Langroudi: My pleasure. My pleasure. I want you particularly on for the [00:02:15] idea of going from a practice from beginning to end. You [00:02:20] know, so, you know, the person we had in here before you, he’s on his 24th practice. [00:02:25]

Raj Ahlowia: Oh my God.

Payman Langroudi: And even though that’s an exciting sounding story, [00:02:30] it’s not the typical story in dentistry. Right. And dentistry, the typical story is [00:02:35] one practice. And then.

Raj Ahlowia: Is that the typical story, though. [00:02:40]

Payman Langroudi: The most typical story.

Raj Ahlowia: To be in just one practice? Yeah, I thought I was quite a.

Payman Langroudi: Practice owner for [00:02:45] a practice owner, of course, the most typical story is a is an associate story. Um, because [00:02:50] the numbers of associates are more than the numbers of practice owners. But for a practice owner, I’d say that’s the [00:02:55] typical story. One practice. And I was reflecting on this last night. You know, [00:03:00] one of my heroes, Andrew Darwood. Yeah, yeah, one. I mean, he’s actually [00:03:05] had a couple of other practices, but one extraordinary practice, you know, that he’s constantly [00:03:10] perfecting.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then I had the CEO of Bupa here, 400 [00:03:15] practices and the challenges that that causes. And of course, he didn’t start the [00:03:20] group. But at Anoushka Brogan from Demetra, 45 [00:03:25] practices lady, three children. Um, so you know, but the [00:03:30] most common story one practice. And you were in that practice since you were a year. [00:03:35]

Raj Ahlowia: Well, yes, I started there on September the 5th, [00:03:40] 1991.

Payman Langroudi: Wow. And is it the only practice you’ve ever really worked in then?

Raj Ahlowia: No. [00:03:45] I have dabbled with, uh, working in Harley Street for other people. There was [00:03:50] a couple of Harley Street jobs, and also I’ve helped out [00:03:55] colleagues. A very nice lady who sadly was suffering with cancer and [00:04:00] needed someone to run her practice while she was dealing with that. So for a few months I went and helped [00:04:05] her out, basically running it on the weekends, keeping her practice alive, and [00:04:10] another friend that needed an implant ologist. I [00:04:15] went and did visiting implant work for him at his huge NHS [00:04:20] factory. Um, so yeah, I’ve done little bits on the side, but [00:04:25] um, never really stopped working. The usual, [00:04:30] you know, 9 to 5 grind. For me, it was, uh, 750 in the morning to five grind [00:04:35] at, uh, my little humble practice five days a week. No, it started [00:04:40] five days a week. Yeah. But, um, my nurse, who worked with me throughout [00:04:45] most of my career, actually, for over 30 years, Jill and I, we worked out that, um, [00:04:50] if we started an hour and a quarter earlier every morning for four days a week [00:04:55] and did one late evening, we could do the 9 to 5 for five [00:05:00] days. Hours in four days. So we proposed it to our principal and [00:05:05] he said, yeah, okay, give it a shot. And so from about 3 or 4 years in, [00:05:10] we dropped Jill and I to four days a week, but did these extended hours [00:05:15] at the practice. And so I did.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what you’ve been doing since?

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah, that’s what I did [00:05:20] for, uh, yeah. About 30 odd years. Did a four day week.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. You know, the.

Raj Ahlowia: Classic. [00:05:25]

Payman Langroudi: The classic cliche about you earn more in four than you do in five?

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. [00:05:30] I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a classic cliche. Lots of people talk about it. I tried it and it worked. [00:05:35] It did work for me, but it was to do with the fewer hours. As in sharper [00:05:40] hours.

Raj Ahlowia: Right.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so, you know, like, as you don’t leave [00:05:45] anything half baked or temporise, you’re much sharper with every patient, every sort [00:05:50] of examination. You’re faster.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That worked. I went from 5 to 4. [00:05:55] I didn’t earn more. I earned the same. Yeah. And then from. But then I thought, let’s try 4 to 3. And [00:06:00] that didn’t work.

Raj Ahlowia: I think the patients liked it because, um, [00:06:05] where the practice was in Biggleswade, it was about a three minute walk from the station. Yeah. [00:06:10] And so there was a huge, uh, sort of proportion [00:06:15] of the patients really wanted those early in the morning appointments from [00:06:20] 750 in the morning so they could come do their check-up and whatever, and then go get the train to work or [00:06:25] then come in the evening. So from, from a patient’s patients.

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t it.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. [00:06:30] It really we found that it really suited them. And then of course there was the group that preferred [00:06:35] to come in the middle of the day, the housewives and the rest of them. Um, but yeah, having that wider, [00:06:40] broader range of hours, um, was a unique thing back when we started [00:06:45] doing it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: And the patients really did appreciate it. So we captured a bit of a market [00:06:50] there. Yeah, that was nice.

Payman Langroudi: Do you live around there as well?

Raj Ahlowia: No, I’ve never lived around there. I’ve [00:06:55] always lived. Well, not always. I mean, my younger years was growing up in [00:07:00] north London. Um, but then my father bought a business [00:07:05] in Saint Albans, and we moved to Saint Albans when I was just turned 11. And [00:07:10] so.

Payman Langroudi: What did your father do?

Raj Ahlowia: Uh, well, he’s deceased now, but, um, [00:07:15] he had a very interesting life, actually. Uh, he hitchhiked from India [00:07:20] to the UK. You’re kidding. He took the queen or the king at the time, a £3 [00:07:25] offer when they were looking for male workforce to rebuild [00:07:30] the UK, rebuild the country and the economy. And the deal was that if you [00:07:35] took the King’s £3 or the Queen’s £3, um, you had to then make your own way. [00:07:40] So he came by land and it took him a year. Wow. And the interesting journey that he took [00:07:45] through Afghanistan and Iran and Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia [00:07:50] and Germany, eastern Germany and western Germany, and then eventually to the UK, stopping [00:07:55] along the way and working jobs as a waiter or whatever. Um, he [00:08:00] told me a story once where he got stuck in. It was either Yugoslavia. I think it must have been Yugoslavia [00:08:05] while it was still a communist country. And he was, uh, waiting [00:08:10] tables in a restaurant. And, um, he was the only Indian brown guy there, [00:08:15] you know, in the whole country, practically, and wearing a turban. And, um, in walked [00:08:20] another turbaned Indian guy. It turned out to be the ambassador of India, [00:08:25] of India in Yugoslavia. And this guy said to my dad, you know, what the hell are you doing here? And [00:08:30] my dad said, well, I’m trying to hitchhike my way to the UK. And he [00:08:35] said, you need to get out of this Eastern European country because this is a communist country. You [00:08:40] don’t get stuck here. So he bunged my dad some cash To to help him move [00:08:45] on to the next phase of his journey. So when he did finally get to the UK, he did [00:08:50] all kinds of jobs. I think he I remember him telling me that at the time there were jobs all [00:08:55] over. You could go to a factory, knock on the door and there’d be jobs for you. And his first job [00:09:00] was working as as an injection moulder, making plastic [00:09:05] trays for food.

Payman Langroudi: This in the 50s?

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. And he told me that [00:09:10] he lasted there about two days because, um, the supervisor came over and found [00:09:15] his pile of, uh, plastic trays. All had an indentation from a screw in [00:09:20] them because a screw had fallen down into the mould. And my dad said, look, I [00:09:25] don’t know anything about that. You told me, pull this lever, put another plastic template [00:09:30] in, pull the lever again, take the template out and stack it. I don’t know anything about [00:09:35] screws loose inside the machine. And so he lost the job and he said, that’s fine and walked to the next factory. [00:09:40] I got another job, But eventually what happened was he ended [00:09:45] up working for the post office, and within the post office he found a community [00:09:50] of other Sikhs who had emigrated, and those that little core [00:09:55] group of 4 or 5 friends remained his friends for life. And [00:10:00] it’s interesting that a lot of my childhood friends are the children of that little group of [00:10:05] five Sikh guys, and now there’s sadly, there’s only two of them left [00:10:10] alive. The three of them, the.

Payman Langroudi: Original.

Raj Ahlowia: Group, three of the original group have died, [00:10:15] and there’s only two of them that remain.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting.

Raj Ahlowia: And I met up actually last week [00:10:20] with, uh, two, two of the sons from two different fathers. Um, [00:10:25] we were like a little trio of three that were around the same age back when we were tiny [00:10:30] little kids. And the way that the community worked back then is on the weekends. [00:10:35] They would all meet, and these guys loved to drink. There was the Chivas [00:10:40] Regal and, you know, the Johnnie Walker Black Label. They’d [00:10:45] be sitting and playing cards while the wives would all be cooking the food, and the kids would all be playing together and we’d [00:10:50] all sleep over. And the following weekend it would be another one’s house, and then the following weekend would [00:10:55] be another one’s house. So I grew up with these guys that were like my cousins in [00:11:00] a community that they made for themselves because they’d left all their cousins. The [00:11:05] parents had left the story.

Payman Langroudi: The immigrant story is your friends become your family. Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: That’s right.

Payman Langroudi: You haven’t got [00:11:10] your family around.

Raj Ahlowia: And those those old dudes were like, closer to me as uncles [00:11:15] than my genuine uncles growing up who I never met.

Payman Langroudi: Overseas.

Raj Ahlowia: Or they were overseas and [00:11:20] I knew them. I never met them. So they really weren’t on my radar. [00:11:25] But these guys were.

Payman Langroudi: I have a similar situation here, actually, and actually we call each [00:11:30] other cousins.

Raj Ahlowia: Exactly. Well, more like brothers even.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but [00:11:35] interesting, because one of my best friends from school was a Sikh guy whose dad worked at the post office. [00:11:40] I wonder if maybe.

Raj Ahlowia: So. [00:11:45] So he worked for the post office for years and years and years, until eventually he had to retire through a [00:11:50] back injury, back problems. And you know, he’s still collecting the the post [00:11:55] Office pension and my mum is still collecting his post pension. But then after that, there was a lull [00:12:00] for several years around the time when I was about 16 to 1920, where he, [00:12:05] um. Oh, no. Sorry. Uh, after the post office, [00:12:10] um, that’s when he started becoming a bit of an entrepreneur. And he started with, um, [00:12:15] a, uh, a stall on Wembley Market. So he was [00:12:20] selling women’s and children’s clothes on Wembley Market. Then eventually he bought a shop in [00:12:25] Saint Albans, which was a sort of grocery shop. And he, [00:12:30] he basically I always say my dad invented the concept of 7-Eleven because [00:12:35] he would open at stupid o’clock in the morning and keep it open till late in the evening and [00:12:40] eventually, you know, got an off licence. It became a very popular, uh, shop. [00:12:45]

Payman Langroudi: But by this time you were gone.

Raj Ahlowia: No. This was. We bought the shop. When? When I was 11 [00:12:50] or 11. We moved to Saint Albans when I was 11. So I did my secondary school education in [00:12:55] in Saint Albans. It was towards the end of that that he sold the business.

Payman Langroudi: When did [00:13:00] you chip in as well?

Raj Ahlowia: Oh yeah. I was always working there. Yeah, I had to, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Cash and carry [00:13:05] all the.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. Trips to the cash and carry to go to Cricklewood. Um, to the cash and carry and Cricklewood. [00:13:10] And in his clapped out van, um, sitting on the engine in the back of a VW [00:13:15] camper van kind of deal. Um, that was his, um, you know, a goods vehicle.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:13:20] that, sort of that sort of communication with the whole public. Yeah. [00:13:25] That you get in a shop. Yeah. It’s literally everyone, isn’t it? Yeah. Because anyone [00:13:30] from the old granny to the.

Raj Ahlowia: Well, we lived on a, we lived on an estate, a council estate, [00:13:35] and we lived five of us in a one bedroom flat above the shop. So my [00:13:40] mum and dad had the bedroom and me and my brother and my sister, we we slept in the living room, my [00:13:45] sister slept on the sofa bed and next to the sofa bed was another double bed that me and my [00:13:50] brother shared. And I remember, you know, it was 50 pees in the metre to [00:13:55] pay for the gas and the electric and the shop was downstairs, so it was a [00:14:00] pretty poor little council estate, but one tiny little parade of shops. And [00:14:05] um, yeah, it was a very popular little grocery shop. And I what forced him really to [00:14:10] sell was that they’d already, um, a co-op had opened up in [00:14:15] the small parade, and then the shop next to us was going to open as a pure off licence. And [00:14:20] my dad thought, you know, this is a time to sell before this competition kind of ruins [00:14:25] the situation. Weirdly, that off licence shop [00:14:30] is now a dental practice, Which is quite interesting. Um, yeah. [00:14:35] So, um, after he sold that, he decided to retire for a bit. And by this [00:14:40] time I was in dental school.

Raj Ahlowia: And then after dental school, while I [00:14:45] was at VTI, there was a guy in the shop below the practice [00:14:50] who was another Sikh guy, and he ran an auto spares shop. And my dad spotted [00:14:55] this when he’d driven me up to the practice for my interview for the job. [00:15:00] And he parked the car. And he just as Sikh people do in [00:15:05] Indian people do, they go and they meet another Indian person, go chat to them. So he made a struck [00:15:10] up a friendship with this guy and this auto shop below [00:15:15] the practice. And every now and again he would randomly come and visit this guy and [00:15:20] say hi and sit and chat with him in the shop. And one day, um, [00:15:25] a policeman came to the shop and said, look, we’ve got a person in [00:15:30] custody in the Biggleswade Nick around the corner and we can’t communicate with [00:15:35] him. We don’t know. Don’t know what language he speaks. Would either of you be free to help us? [00:15:40] We know he’s from your part of the world. And of course the guy in the shop couldn’t leave because it’s [00:15:45] his shop. And my dad said, yeah, I’ll come with you. So he went round the corner to the Biggleswade Nick. And, [00:15:50] um, the police said, look, we just need you to read him his [00:15:55] rights.

Raj Ahlowia: So my dad went in, spoke with him in [00:16:00] one language, couldn’t communicate. But the interesting thing about my dad is because he [00:16:05] hitchhiked from India to the UK. He picked up a lot [00:16:10] of languages along the way, and he comes from a part of India called Maharashtra, which [00:16:15] has the native language of Marathi. So he could speak Marathi like [00:16:20] a native, but he could also speak Hindi like a native because Hindi was the national language. [00:16:25] But he’s a Punjabi Sikh so he could also speak Punjabi and Punjabi. [00:16:30] And Punjab is quite close to Pakistan. And my dad travelled through Pakistan [00:16:35] and picked up Urdu quite quickly and then he picked up Arabic and [00:16:40] eventually you know, German as well. Um, because he stayed in Germany for a while and obviously [00:16:45] whatever serbo-croat they spoke in Yugoslavia. So he started with one [00:16:50] language, listen to what the guy was saying and realised, oh, I can communicate [00:16:55] with him in a dialect, something or other close to what he can speak in. And [00:17:00] he eventually explained to him, these are your rights. And he gave his details [00:17:05] to the police and left. And about a month later a check arrived [00:17:10] from Bedfordshire Police for.

Payman Langroudi: Translation.

Raj Ahlowia: Translation [00:17:15] services. And what’s this? And I said, dad, what that is, is an opportunity. [00:17:20] And that weekend we composed a CV, uh, [00:17:25] printed out loads of copies of it and letters, and [00:17:30] we sent them to every police station in Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire. And we also I said [00:17:35] to my dad, you also want to send them to all the solicitors offices, as [00:17:40] many as you can think of locally. And that began his second career as [00:17:45] an interpreter.

Payman Langroudi: How crazy.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. And he loved that job because [00:17:50] we weren’t that far from Luton. And the local [00:17:55] police used to come and pick him up and drive him every day to [00:18:00] go, and.

Payman Langroudi: A different place to do that.

Raj Ahlowia: Different interpretations. He ended up working [00:18:05] in the courts. Lots of lawyers knew him and they would pick him because he could [00:18:10] speak so many different languages. He ended up working at the airports when the cycle [00:18:15] of all right now we’re on to Asian immigrants, we’re going to start interviewing them. And [00:18:20] there would be a cycle where, you know, they’d do immigrants from Africa and Africa where a Far [00:18:25] East. But when it got to the Asian ones, they’d recruit him and he’d be going day after day. He’d travel as [00:18:30] far as Wales. They’d pick him up and escort him. And he knew [00:18:35] so many police people personally, his personal friends, so many lawyers, and he [00:18:40] was a very sociable person. And, um, yeah, he loved that job. Did [00:18:45] that write up a.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant story, man?

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah, yeah. So, weirdly, he should have [00:18:50] done that from the start, because what he didn’t realise was he had this.

Payman Langroudi: Skill.

Raj Ahlowia: He had this skill [00:18:55] set of all these languages. I mean, when we when we made the CV and we were trying to work [00:19:00] out all the languages we listed 15.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Raj Ahlowia: 15 different languages that he could speak [00:19:05] fluently, which was crazy because I didn’t know this about my [00:19:10] dad. And, you know, I was now 25, 26 and helping him to start this second [00:19:15] very, very successful career.

Payman Langroudi: Where did dentistry come into play? I mean, were you a clever kid? Were [00:19:20] you like top of your class or what were you?

Raj Ahlowia: Way I was. Yeah, yeah, but [00:19:25] dentistry wasn’t on my radar.

Payman Langroudi: What were you thinking?

Raj Ahlowia: Oh, University wasn’t on my radar.

Payman Langroudi: Why?

Raj Ahlowia: No [00:19:30] one in my family had gone to university. It didn’t even. It wasn’t even a conversation [00:19:35] in the house. It wasn’t a conversation with relatives or friends. We were. I [00:19:40] was the son of a postman, you know, uh, nobody that I knew, [00:19:45] nobody that my parents knew had gone to university. So I didn’t [00:19:50] actually fit in a university application form. I was at school and [00:19:55] there was a deadline for handing in what was then called the Ucca form University in college, something [00:20:00] application form, and I hadn’t filled one in and the deadline was, um, [00:20:05] pretty close. And my form teacher at the [00:20:10] time was also my chemistry teacher. I was doing chemistry A-level, and he also happened [00:20:15] to be the careers adviser for school, so he was the person [00:20:20] wanting to see the Ucca forms. He came to me one morning and said, why aren’t you handed [00:20:25] in your Ucca form yet? And I said, well, I haven’t for one thing. And he [00:20:30] was gobsmacked. And he said, but you’re a a really [00:20:35] good student. You’re doing well in your A-levels. You did really [00:20:40] well in your O-levels because before GCSEs. He said, [00:20:45] why haven’t you thought about university? I said, well, I was just going to leave school and get a job. [00:20:50]

Raj Ahlowia: I was thinking about getting a job with a bank. And [00:20:55] he said, what he said is that what you want to do out of your life? I [00:21:00] said, no, I wanted to be an airline pilot, but my eyesight was crappy and my parents can’t [00:21:05] afford to, um, give me flying lessons. Um, so I [00:21:10] didn’t really have any other ambitions other than that. And [00:21:15] he said, right, look, you need to do something for me. And he said, I want [00:21:20] you to write down things that you want out of life. Write [00:21:25] it down on a piece of paper. And then I want you to go get a university course guidebook. And [00:21:30] I want you to go through it and look to see. Is there anything in [00:21:35] there that could give you what you want out of life, but also matches the [00:21:40] three A-levels? You’re doing maths, physics and chemistry because you’ve got a lot [00:21:45] of opportunities in your spark kid and university is free. And it was at the time, in [00:21:50] fact, they’d give you a grant to go. It was about £3,000 a year, but you didn’t [00:21:55] have to pay anything to the university. So I didn’t [00:22:00] really have anything else to do that weekend. So I thought, I’ll take you at your word and I’ll do this exercise. [00:22:05]

Raj Ahlowia: So I wrote down what I wanted out of life and it wasn’t that [00:22:10] stunning. I just put down things that were just slightly better than [00:22:15] what we had at the time. Like I would like to go on a holiday. We had [00:22:20] never been on a holiday. I’ve been out of the country, uh, to India to visit [00:22:25] relatives. And actually, that’s another whole story because I got left there in a [00:22:30] boarding school and almost died. Uh, so that’s something else we can talk about another [00:22:35] time. But, um, the only other time I’d left mainland England was a [00:22:40] day trip with those other kids and other uncles from the post office [00:22:45] and aunties. We went on a day trip to the Isle of Wight. So I wrote down, I’d like [00:22:50] to go on a holiday and I’d like to have a nice car. I like to own my own [00:22:55] house. Um. By this point we had moved out of the one bedroom flat. He [00:23:00] had made enough money in the house in the business to buy a house. And, uh, so [00:23:05] I wasn’t looking to be a millionaire or billionaire. I just wanted to do slightly better [00:23:10] than my dad had. Grafted multiple jobs and worked his, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Expectations [00:23:15] are a funny thing. You know, like, there’s been research on it that everyone thinks if they earn [00:23:20] two and a half times more than they earn, that would be a lot of money. Yeah. Everyone how much [00:23:25] they earn? Yeah. You know, like the person earning 30 grand says 95 or whatever [00:23:30] it is.

Raj Ahlowia: There’s a difference now with this Instagram generation where everybody’s [00:23:35] showing their best life and living like a billionaire, and everyone [00:23:40] feels like that’s what they deserve and should have. And if they don’t have it, [00:23:45] there’s a disappointment. And I feel that’s a little bit sad for them. I feel sorry for them.

Payman Langroudi: You know that thing? [00:23:50] What’s the cliche comparison is the something of joy that takes [00:23:55] all your joy? Yeah, yeah. And and certainly when you know, it’s.

Raj Ahlowia: Like, don’t read beauty magazines [00:24:00] because it’ll only is in that song, wasn’t it by Baz Luhrmann. Don’t don’t look at. [00:24:05]

Payman Langroudi: But certainly certainly looking at your neighbour’s car and shoes and holidays is a massive [00:24:10] error. But now with with social. It’s almost it’s almost [00:24:15] the default like seeing what everyone’s up to.

Raj Ahlowia: So I was only comparing myself to what I knew, which [00:24:20] is what my dad. And so.

Payman Langroudi: Then. Okay, so then you look down the list and dentistry seem to fit. [00:24:25]

Raj Ahlowia: No, what happened was I went I went out, and I bought Brian Heaps University [00:24:30] Course Guide book, 1985 1986. Is that a pink cover and a graphic of a [00:24:35] student looking at some books? And I went through the A to Z Aardvark [00:24:40] technology to zoology. Pretty much the same stuff, [00:24:45] right? So I went through the A to Z, and I came up with a short list [00:24:50] of a few things, but only two of them matched on the A-levels [00:24:55] required, because then you’d flick to that page and you’d see what A-levels are required. And there are only two things. [00:25:00] And so I filled in my form. You’re allowed five choices. I put down [00:25:05] three choices for dentistry and [00:25:10] two for astrophysics. And I handed it in to doctor Roger [00:25:15] Bellini. Lovely guy. And, uh, he took one look at it [00:25:20] and he looked up at me. He goes, you’re an idiot. That was the words that came out of his mouth. And I was [00:25:25] like, I was really in a way, I was really disappointed. Upset because I’d done exactly [00:25:30] what he’d asked. And I told him, well, I did exactly what you asked. And he said, yeah, I [00:25:35] get you’ve done what I asked, but you’ve picked two incredibly [00:25:40] hard courses to get into. There’s so much competition to get into these. [00:25:45] You’re going to have like 20,000 other kids trying to get into these Dental schools [00:25:50] or astrophysics colleges, and the astrophysics colleges and the Dental schools are going [00:25:55] to only look for reasons to reject applications quickly. And one of [00:26:00] them will be, are you committed to this profession? So if you haven’t put down five applications [00:26:05] for astrophysics, forget it. None of the astrophysics colleges are going to want you. And if you haven’t done five for dentistry, [00:26:10] they’re going to do the same thing.

Raj Ahlowia: So he said take it away. Another copy to [00:26:15] choose between astrophysics or dentistry and put down five applications. So [00:26:20] I went home that day after school and I did the one thing [00:26:25] no teenage boy ever does. I asked my dad for advice. [00:26:30] Okay. And he could see I was itching to ask him something because I [00:26:35] was kind of trying to get close to him. And sometimes [00:26:40] these ageing parents, fathers in particular, it’s hard to get close [00:26:45] to them and ask them for advice. They’re too busy in their own world of working hard to make [00:26:50] a living and pay the mortgage. And he said, you look like you got something on your mind. What do you want to ask me? [00:26:55] And I explained to him, I said, look, I’m going to go to university. And he goes, oh, you’re [00:27:00] going to go to university, are you? And this is news to him. It’s the first time he knew that I was going to apply. And [00:27:05] I said, yeah. And, um, I’ve got to make a decision between 1 or 2 things [00:27:10] and he goes, okay, what’s that then? And I said, well, uh, either [00:27:15] become an astrophysicist or become a dentist. And [00:27:20] he stopped and he just looked at me for about five seconds, and he went, do you [00:27:25] really think NASA’s going to give a job to an Indian boy from north London? Go become a dentist. That [00:27:30] was it. And I thought, yeah, he’s got a point. [00:27:35] Now, I could have been landing lunar rovers [00:27:40] right on the moon now. India bloody, landing their own things. Now [00:27:45] on the moon. I could have been doing that instead.

Payman Langroudi: Not to mention the CEO of [00:27:50] Microsoft and Google Indians.

Raj Ahlowia: What? I could have been doing something like that. Or I could [00:27:55] have been a banker and, uh, got my own chalet in the Swiss Alps or something. [00:28:00]

Payman Langroudi: But although, although we mustn’t paper over something that your dad was saying, that [00:28:05] was true at the time. Yeah. Was that I remember going on elective in 92, [00:28:10] and the dean of UCSF where I went was gay [00:28:15] and black, right. And I remember thinking, there is no way the Dean of [00:28:20] Cardiff, where I was, was going to be gay, all black.

Raj Ahlowia: Right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And that [00:28:25] was the way of the world in 85, 86. That was I’m sure your dad was looking in the post office saying, [00:28:30] no, no. Brown faces at the top of the organisation. You know, we mustn’t crack up like paper over [00:28:35] that fact.

Raj Ahlowia: I mean, I took him and his what he was as vice was, and it was [00:28:40] I thought, you know, you’re right. Go and become a dentist. So. So where did you go? Late. [00:28:45] I handed in my day.

Payman Langroudi: Late.

Raj Ahlowia: With five applications for dentistry, and [00:28:50] I got one offer, and that’s where I went. What was it, guys?

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [00:28:55] Yeah. Okay. And did you spend the first year in digs or, [00:29:00] uh, Wolfson House, whatever it was called?

Raj Ahlowia: So back then, there wasn’t [00:29:05] guaranteed accommodation.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: You had to go and find somewhere to live. And [00:29:10] it was a struggle trying to find somewhere to live, and ended up in a house with [00:29:15] a couple of medics and three dental students in Stretham. [00:29:20]

Payman Langroudi: In the first year. Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah, in Stretham. In the first term. And [00:29:25] the landlord was a very old guy, and he [00:29:30] just kept turning up every day. And we were [00:29:35] like, this. This guy’s really weird. Why does he keep turning up here and [00:29:40] hanging out? We found it. We all found it very uncomfortable. [00:29:45] So within a few weeks, we all had to sit somewhere else. And [00:29:50] I went to the, um, office at the dental school and explained my problem [00:29:55] that I need to find somewhere. And they helped me to get a room [00:30:00] in the nurses home at guy’s campus, which was next door to the [00:30:05] medical school building, which is where we had a lot of our undergraduate first year. So I lived [00:30:10] in the.

Payman Langroudi: What was your what was your outlook like? You know, you come from the suburbs. Yeah, big, [00:30:15] big city and all that. Were you. Yeah. Were you excited? Scared? Were you, were you excited? [00:30:20] Party guy?

Raj Ahlowia: I wasn’t I wasn’t a party guy. I’ve never [00:30:25] been a party guy. I’ve always been a bit [00:30:30] of a loner, a bit aloof. Um, I like [00:30:35] people watching, but I don’t kind of fit in easily. There’s reasons [00:30:40] for it. Um, one of them is I suffer from a thing called prosopagnosia [00:30:45] right from childhood. And, um, it’s gotten worse as I’ve gotten [00:30:50] older. And prosopagnosia is an odd thing. It affects about 1 in 10,000 people I didn’t know I had [00:30:55] it until I started googling. And Google wasn’t a thing back then. But [00:31:00] prosopagnosia is a disconnect between the visual part of your brain [00:31:05] and the brain that recognises names and labels. [00:31:10] So when I see people, I don’t recognise them. And [00:31:15] that happens even with family members. It’s not that I don’t recognise them, I know that I know them. [00:31:20] But what I can’t bring to my mouth is an aphasia to bring their [00:31:25] name to my mouth. And so it’s on the tip of my tongue and it’s sometimes it can [00:31:30] be embarrassing. So my wife knows about this. A lot of my colleagues at work know about this, and [00:31:35] they would always find ways to help me. But I also found strategies myself to help myself. Um, [00:31:40] so, for example, if we, um, meet people my wife has never [00:31:45] met before or Dental colleagues, I’m struggling to bring their name to my [00:31:50] mouth, and I have a feeling that I know them, but [00:31:55] I’m not sure. So I find strategies to to to help me recognise people that I do know. Um, [00:32:00] but I’ll say something like, oh, why don’t you guys introduce yourself? I’ll go grab [00:32:05] some drinks. And my wife knows exactly what that means. It means that I don’t want to get [00:32:10] feel, make this person feel embarrassed. Like I don’t know their name because they know that I know them, [00:32:15] but I just can’t bring their name.

Payman Langroudi: Is it just a social thing or is it?

Raj Ahlowia: I know it happens all the time, for [00:32:20] example.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, do you do you manage to remember that all the branches of the vagus nerve or whatever, [00:32:25] like how did you know I.

Raj Ahlowia: I used to draw diagrams and [00:32:30] by rote learning, uh, I’m visual that way that [00:32:35] I can just keep drawing the same diagram over and over again, the labels down, and then then [00:32:40] figure it out. Um, but I mean, the the weirdest example of this is, uh, [00:32:45] I went to my wife’s from Finland, and early in our relationship, I [00:32:50] went to Finland to hang out with them at their family summer cottages by the [00:32:55] lakes and I ended up going and spooning my now sister in law. [00:33:00] I jumped on the back of a bench and cuddled her from behind and was [00:33:05] snuggling her neck and she went, oh, hello.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the wrong.

Raj Ahlowia: Sister. And I was like, oh [00:33:10] my God. And so weird little things like that. Um, but my nurse [00:33:15] Jill, for many years, she understood and she would help me by, um, [00:33:20] um, sort of, uh, giving me a [00:33:25] quick update of who the person was that I’d been seeing for years and years and years as a patient, but [00:33:30] had no clue from their name who they were or what their face was. [00:33:35] I knew the name and I knew the face, but I couldn’t put the two together. [00:33:40] And that’s been the way it always has been for me. So, um, building [00:33:45] relationships with people, building social connections has always been slightly [00:33:50] difficult. And going out to a nightclub where it’s dark and [00:33:55] it’s noisy. I can’t use some of my [00:34:00] strategies for helping me to recognise faces, so I study faces. Uh, [00:34:05] probably more than other people do, because I’m looking for things that I can link [00:34:10] using memory strategies to a label that helps me know their [00:34:15] name. So one of the hardest ones, um, I [00:34:20] always seem to have trouble with is, um, there’s [00:34:25] a there’s a particular actor who I love his his his work, and [00:34:30] I can never remember his name. And I always have to link it [00:34:35] through a convoluted series of connections of what movie he’s been and what some other actor has [00:34:40] been in to somebody who I can recognise and then get back to his name. And the reason I can’t tell you his name [00:34:45] is, is because I’m trying to go through that process and I can’t remember his name.

Payman Langroudi: I think I [00:34:50] may have a degree of this disease too. I don’t know. I’m terrible with [00:34:55] faces and names.

Raj Ahlowia: So I avoid social situations.

Payman Langroudi: Like [00:35:00] you kind of describe yourself as an introvert.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah, a little bit. It makes me. It makes [00:35:05] me a little bit introverted. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because you know what you describe. You know, the way people discuss [00:35:10] extrovert. Introvert is an introvert is tired by social interaction. Well, if [00:35:15] you’re having to go through all these hoops.

Raj Ahlowia: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: It’s tiring.

Raj Ahlowia: It exhausts me. Yeah, yeah [00:35:20] yeah. So I don’t don’t. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then what was the experience like. How would you [00:35:25] overall assess your dental school experience.

Raj Ahlowia: I hated it.

Payman Langroudi: Hated it.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah absolutely hated [00:35:30] it. I’m not academically gifted. Um, but I have incredibly [00:35:35] good hand skills. And because of this visual acuity of having to use visual [00:35:40] concentration, um, I use it a lot. [00:35:45] And so I could see a skill and do it if someone [00:35:50] showed me how to do something, I could watch what they were doing with my hands and repeat it. [00:35:55] Um, this this came to a point. Um, there’s a funny story about this. [00:36:00] I, my wife and I went to the Bahamas early in our relationship for a [00:36:05] holiday, and we went to the Atlantis Hotel in the Bahamas, [00:36:10] which is almost identical to the one in Dubai. And we were sitting at [00:36:15] a bar in the casino, and this guy walked up to us. He was older, [00:36:20] we were only in our early 30s, and he was clearly in his 50s [00:36:25] or so, and trailing behind him was a very sheepish looking young American couple. [00:36:30] We didn’t understand what was going on with them, but this guy sat next to us and he said, are you guys here [00:36:35] on holiday? And we went, yeah, yeah we are. And he goes, are you enjoying everything? Yeah, yeah. He goes, uh, [00:36:40] would you like to see a magic trick? And we’re like, yeah, sure. And he goes, I’ll show you this [00:36:45] magic trick.

Raj Ahlowia: Um, but I’m also going to make a bet with you. It’s a hand skill trick. [00:36:50] And he said, I’m going to show it to you, and I’ll make a bet with you for $1,000 [00:36:55] that you can’t do it, even if I show it to you three times. And I said, [00:37:00] no, I’m not really interested. And he goes, no, no, no. Why not? And I said, well, I don’t have $1,000 [00:37:05] to lose. For starters, he goes, look, I’ll show you it first and then you can [00:37:10] decide whether you want to take the bet. So he showed me this little hand skill magic trick that [00:37:15] involved just basically two champagne corks and manipulating them in your hands. And [00:37:20] he goes there. That’s all you have to do. You just have to do this thing that I’ve [00:37:25] just showed you. And I go, look, I still I saw what you did, and I can do it. That’s fine. But [00:37:30] I don’t have $1,000 to lose. And then he laid the bombshell that explained what [00:37:35] the sheepish couple was all about. He said, you don’t have to have $1,000. I’ve got $1,000. [00:37:40] If you can do it, I’ll give you $1,000. But if you can’t, [00:37:45] I get to spend the evening with your young lady. And it [00:37:50] was like straight out of that movie.

Payman Langroudi: Your wife. Indecent proposal.

Raj Ahlowia: Indecent proposal. [00:37:55] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Whoa!

Raj Ahlowia: And she looked at me like. You better not take [00:38:00] this. We weren’t married at the time. And I said, look, I [00:38:05] can do that. So I said, sure. So [00:38:10] I took the corks and I did it first time in front of him. And [00:38:15] the guy flipped out. He thought I knew the magic trick and had seen it before. I said, no, I haven’t. [00:38:20] I have not seen that trick before. I just happen to be very [00:38:25] good with my hands and visual acuity. And then [00:38:30] I realised what the young couple were following him around for. Because they had lost the bet. And [00:38:35] in the end, he didn’t pay me the thousand. He welshed on it. He just got angry and stormed off.

Payman Langroudi: Oh [00:38:40] dear, oh dear. Actually, before.

Raj Ahlowia: He stormed off he tried to do a he tried to do a double or nothing, but [00:38:45] I got him on that one as well. So, um. Yeah. And then he stormed off. So [00:38:50] I’ve been always very good with my eyes and had a [00:38:55] pretty good dexterity in my hands up until recently. [00:39:00] And so I could watch a skill and repeat it. Yeah, but [00:39:05] reading a book was terrible. You know, I fall asleep [00:39:10] after 3 or 4 pages reading any Dental book. You know, if someone wants a cure for insomnia, I’ve [00:39:15] got a whole stack of dental textbooks. Help yourself, mate, read five pages, you’re going to fall [00:39:20] asleep.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me about your first job.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. So my first [00:39:25] job. Well, that’s not my first job. My first job was my, you know, summer [00:39:30] Saturday job. But you want to know about dentistry? Yeah. So my first job was [00:39:35] my job, which is in the.

Payman Langroudi: In the practice that you spent your whole career [00:39:40] in.

Raj Ahlowia: I spent my whole career in. Yeah. So I am a [00:39:45] very risk averse kind of person. And at the time when we graduated, [00:39:50] the choices were go and find a job applying [00:39:55] wherever. I think the jobs were just advertising the BD at the time, and [00:40:00] you could choose between trying to get a private job in Harley Street or if you had enough family [00:40:05] money, go and set your own one up or whatever, or um, go [00:40:10] and get a job in the NHS. And there was a very few private [00:40:15] practices outside of Harley Street. That’s right. So. [00:40:20] I didn’t know one NHS practice from another. What was [00:40:25] a good one? What was a bad one? But I knew there was a a range of them. But [00:40:30] what I did know was that there was this new thing called VCT, and that the [00:40:35] trainers had been vetted as passing some [00:40:40] standard and having the ability to teach general practice. [00:40:45] So I thought, I’ll do that. It was voluntary at the time. Now it’s mandatory, but at the time [00:40:50] it was the second year of the experiment. 1991. It was entirely [00:40:55] voluntary, whether you want to do it. And I thought, right, I’ll do that. And [00:41:00] I thought, I don’t have money, I [00:41:05] don’t have any savings. I need to earn money fast, and I’m going to have to work by, uh, [00:41:10] somewhere close to my parents house. So I got the list of all [00:41:15] the practices in Hertfordshire and Bedfordshire, and there were only three. [00:41:20] So I applied to all three. One of them was in Hitchin in Hertfordshire. One [00:41:25] of them was Bedford in Bedfordshire, and the other one was Biggleswade. So I had interviews [00:41:30] at all three. The guy in Hitchin absolutely loved me.

Raj Ahlowia: He was a guy’s man and I was a [00:41:35] guy’s man. He absolutely loved me. Um, but there was some things about the way [00:41:40] he ran the practice when I was asking him, and also about what would happen after [00:41:45] the year that didn’t sit well with me. He said, oh, [00:41:50] no, I don’t believe in Associateships. But you can be my assistant and work under my [00:41:55] number. And I said, well, what does that mean? Do I have clinical freedom with my [00:42:00] patients? He goes, no, you’ll have to justify everything to me. It’s okay. [00:42:05] Never heard of that before. The guy in Bedford wanted somebody [00:42:10] who was a little closer. He said, where are you going to live? I said, my parents in Saint Albans, [00:42:15] and it’s not that far. But it was far enough that he said you wouldn’t be close [00:42:20] enough to handle the on call work. I need someone who’s going to be living closer. And the [00:42:25] guy in Biggleswade, when I went there, he showed me the practice and he said, if you like [00:42:30] it, let me know. So the guy in Bedford didn’t want me because [00:42:35] I was too far away. The guy in Hitchin had this odd arrangement [00:42:40] for after VAT and I wanted some continuity. I wanted to start [00:42:45] a practice where I could build a career, and I felt like I didn’t want to be then [00:42:50] finishing the VC and then having to find another job, because I might as well have just done that from the start. Just [00:42:55] find a regular job. Um, so I rang the guy in Biggleswade [00:43:00] and he said, sure, start on this day. And that was it. So [00:43:05] I started on September the 5th.

Payman Langroudi: How many years after that did you buy it?

Raj Ahlowia: Uh, [00:43:10] well. Well.

Payman Langroudi: I know I’m jumping, but. But how many years was it.

Raj Ahlowia: After [00:43:15] the VAT year?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: He asked me, did I want to be a partner?

Payman Langroudi: Oh, dear. And then. [00:43:20] Wow.

Raj Ahlowia: And I said no, because for one, I couldn’t afford it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:43:25]

Raj Ahlowia: And every year thereafter he kept asking me and I [00:43:30] kept saying no, because I was always thinking about the future and I wasn’t married, but [00:43:35] I was dating [00:43:40] somebody from Cyprus. And there was a plan maybe [00:43:45] that we would go move to Cyprus. So I didn’t want to commit to buying [00:43:50] somewhere and then being connected to it and unable [00:43:55] to separate myself. And so I thought, until I get married, I don’t know where I’m going to [00:44:00] end up. Anyway, the relationship with the one from Cyprus fizzled out, and [00:44:05] I ended up dating women in America because I was studying in America throughout a lot of [00:44:10] my early years as an associate.

Payman Langroudi: Was that panky?

Raj Ahlowia: Well, there’s a reason for why I [00:44:15] was studying, which I’ll get to in a moment, and that that centres around a decision that he made. [00:44:20] My boss in 1995, in 19. So four years after [00:44:25] I started as a Viti in 1994 ish, the [00:44:30] government was starting to meddle with the NHS [00:44:35] contract and he didn’t like the changes, so he decided he was going to take [00:44:40] the practice private and me as an associate only four years out of dental school, didn’t [00:44:45] know what that meant. I thought it meant what the guys in Harley Street do, and [00:44:50] so I thought, I need to now learn something [00:44:55] new. So that triggered in 1994, 1995, [00:45:00] a a a a flip of a switch in my brain that [00:45:05] I have to learn how to do what Harley Street dentists do. So [00:45:10] I started a journey of travelling to the States to learn it because I didn’t know any better. I didn’t know about [00:45:15] courses in the UK.

Payman Langroudi: There weren’t many back then.

Raj Ahlowia: There weren’t many. So I [00:45:20] went west and I was spending so much of my [00:45:25] time travelling backwards and forwards to the States, it would become home [00:45:30] to three weeks of work and with the money that I’d made, go on another course. And, uh, travel [00:45:35] off to the States. And at the same time, my very good friend that I’d met at Viti, Hap [00:45:40] Gill, he was on a similar pathway because his practice was also doing the same thing they wanted. [00:45:45] They didn’t like the new 1995 contract. So he and I talked about where we were going to learn stuff, [00:45:50] and we were researching together, and he said, like, we’ve got to learn cosmetic [00:45:55] dentistry, we’ve got to learn functional occlusion and stuff like that. He said, why don’t you go to New York and learn [00:46:00] from Larry Rosenthal? I’m going to go to this institute in Florida [00:46:05] called the Pankey Institute, which teaches occlusion.

Payman Langroudi: Which was which were you with [00:46:10] Larry?

Raj Ahlowia: I went to learn with and he said, we’ll teach each other. So that [00:46:15] way we both have to do both. Yeah. So I went off to learned from Larry Rosenthal and, [00:46:20] um, that went on to off to learn occlusion and whatnot. And [00:46:25] Larry was teaching purely cosmetic dentistry. I [00:46:30] learned from Larry. Larry asked me, would I like to teach [00:46:35] for him? Because Larry was looking at the UK as an opportunity to tap the UK market, because [00:46:40] all these Brits suddenly coming across to America to learn from him. [00:46:45] So when Larry wanted to do his courses at the Eastman, he asked me, would I help [00:46:50] and teach? So I said yes. So then I was teaching [00:46:55] a bunch of other colleagues, some of them much older than me. How [00:47:00] to do verdantix. And [00:47:05] some of them ended up on this TV show, new TV show called Extreme Makeover. [00:47:10] People I’d literally just been teaching. But at the same time, I was learning [00:47:15] things from how about occlusion? That was making me question the order in which I [00:47:20] was doing things. And he said, look, you know, and this is what? Then [00:47:25] I shot off to Pankey to start learning at panki. I was learning at panki whilst also teaching for [00:47:30] Larry whilst also working at the practice. A few days, a few weeks, a month and [00:47:35] then taking time off and I was in a hurry to learn everything because what happened was [00:47:40] um, when I saw some of the people I’d just taught on the TV show, [00:47:45] I wrote to the producers of Extreme Makeover and I said, uh, I [00:47:50] watched your first season.

Raj Ahlowia: It was fantastic. But I’ve got a load of patients [00:47:55] who are not middle aged women who can’t afford this kind of dentistry but [00:48:00] need it. They don’t want it for cosmetic purposes. They need it because their mouths [00:48:05] are a wreck, and I can fix them. And I’m prepared to pay to do [00:48:10] all their work. And they’re young men in their 20s. And I think if you gave [00:48:15] me the opportunity to show what I can do for these young men, it will change the demographic of your [00:48:20] audience, because now men will watch the programme because you’re you’re targeting [00:48:25] middle aged women on your daytime TV, but young men or males in [00:48:30] general will be interested in your show. And also, the young women who are interested in young men will be interested in your [00:48:35] show. I sent this letter off to their registered address. Three different addresses I found. This [00:48:40] is all before email were the thing. And six months later [00:48:45] there was a phone call to the practice and I was with a patient and reception [00:48:50] came in and said, there’s a TV producer on the phone. I said, look, I’ll call [00:48:55] him back. And I knew straight away that it was them, and I knew why they’d be calling me because [00:49:00] they were interested in what I had to say. Anyway, I called the guy back and he goes, right, are you this [00:49:05] very arrogant young dentist telling me how he can change the demographic of my audience? And [00:49:10] I thought to myself, well, he rang me.

Raj Ahlowia: I don’t have to be embarrassed about what I wrote. [00:49:15] Um, I just said, yes, I am. And he said, very interesting [00:49:20] letter. We’ve had someone drop out from the show, and we have to [00:49:25] fill a certain number of shows for the TV station. Would [00:49:30] one of your young guys be interested in doing the show? And I said, I can ask and he said, look, [00:49:35] get them to borrow a video camera and make a cassette and send it to us because [00:49:40] we’re in a desperate hurry. So I got in touch with one of these young lads. He was a lovely young lad. I really liked [00:49:45] him, but he had severe rampant caries all over his mouth. And [00:49:50] I said, look, do you want me to sort out your teeth? Uh, I can do it and I can do it for [00:49:55] free. Um, but the one condition is you’re going to have to be on a TV show, and [00:50:00] you’re going to have to impress the TV show producers to get on the show. And he went, yeah, all [00:50:05] for it. And we went for it. And he made the tape. They liked him. They called him for an interview. [00:50:10] It was great, and they gave me the opportunity. So I did it and [00:50:15] he had a missing tooth and I thought, right, [00:50:20] look, this is a TV show that’s going to showcase the best of dentistry. [00:50:25]

Raj Ahlowia: I don’t want to be showing a bridge or a denture to fill this gap in his smile. We [00:50:30] need to show an implant. And I knew nothing about implants that wasn’t learning them [00:50:35] yet, but harp was. And I said to harp, I said, do you want to be on a TV show? [00:50:40] And he was like, yeah. And I said, well, I’ve got this gig. I’m going to be [00:50:45] on this TV show. This is what the case needs. Do you want to put an implant [00:50:50] in? And I’ll just say, I’ll work with you and I’ll get you on the show. They won’t be able to do anything about it because they’re [00:50:55] going to be rolling cameras. And we’ll introduce you and you do the implant. And [00:51:00] he goes, let’s do this. Let’s rent a practice in Harley Street, too, [00:51:05] because we knew that from the first season. They did a shot [00:51:10] of the street sign Harley Street. And we’re going to look like Harley Street [00:51:15] dentists. So we rented a practice in Harley Street and told the camera crew to come there with [00:51:20] the patient, who was my patient anyway, and hap put an implant [00:51:25] in, and it was the first implant ever shown on British TV. So [00:51:30] that’s our little claim to fame. Now, the format of the show is that you’ve got to finish [00:51:35] everything on this person within six weeks, and [00:51:40] they’re having all sorts done. They’re having, you know, the boob.

Payman Langroudi: Surgery.

Raj Ahlowia: Cosmetic surgery, [00:51:45] clothing, hair, makeup, all the rest of it, whatever. Um, so [00:51:50] there was a small window in which to do all the dentistry. And so I said, all right, we’ll [00:51:55] we’ll sleep the implant, bury it, and I’ll [00:52:00] put a conventional bridge over the top with temp bond. Um, and [00:52:05] as far as the world of TV is concerned, and what the editing will show [00:52:10] to the public is that there’s an implant in there, and that’s a fake tooth. But actually, [00:52:15] this young lad who’s now in his 40s, has got a bridge [00:52:20] sitting over a sleeping implant. Um, so with the magic of television, [00:52:25] we finished, uh, the makeover and, uh. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And did you only [00:52:30] do that one episode?

Raj Ahlowia: Oh, no. No, no. After that, they put me on, um, season two [00:52:35] gave me lots more cases to do, including other young males, uh, that [00:52:40] I had. Sorry. Season three. And then, um, before season four, [00:52:45] they made me the guy that pre-screens the cases. The reason for that [00:52:50] is a case was given to me that couldn’t be done in six [00:52:55] weeks. Uh, at least I didn’t think it could be done. It was a full mouth rehab case. And a [00:53:00] woman who had been through the windscreen of her dad’s VW beetle when [00:53:05] she was six years old, and her face was completely smashed. When she was six, her [00:53:10] father broke both legs in the accident and he took [00:53:15] his broken daughter and crawled to the nearest house, called [00:53:20] the hospital. Luckily, there was a visiting [00:53:25] maxillofacial surgeon from America who [00:53:30] was teaching some lecture or something. He’d [00:53:35] been called over. So this guy, this visiting American surgeon, and this [00:53:40] team at the local hospital reconstructed this six year old girl’s face the [00:53:45] best they could. But unfortunately, when they put her maxilla back together, it [00:53:50] was set back relative to her mandible. So she had [00:53:55] a pseudo class three for entire life while she was growing up. And [00:54:00] when she was in her teens at school, someone opened a door into her face [00:54:05] and smashed her anterior teeth in. So she had this bridgework as well. That was in a [00:54:10] pseudo class three, so it was all getting smashed up.

Raj Ahlowia: Now Her main deal was [00:54:15] that her nose, the tip of her nose, was set back behind where, [00:54:20] you know, her cheekbones ought to be, because her maxilla was so caved in and [00:54:25] she was accepted for the TV show. And the main deal that she was going to have was they were going [00:54:30] to do a boob job, and at the same time, they were going to take a rib and reconstruct her nose [00:54:35] cartilage with this rib and bring her nose forward. But there [00:54:40] was no, um, uh, um, provision made to do [00:54:45] anything about her maxilla being set back. And this smashed up dentistry from this [00:54:50] weird pseudo class three occlusion, and it got assigned to me. I [00:54:55] was, at the time, rapidly crash, coursing through [00:55:00] everything Pankey could teach because I was now a TV [00:55:05] dentist. I could do all the cosmetic stuff. I knew all that, hands down, [00:55:10] but it It was the wrong thing to learn first. What you really need to understand [00:55:15] is function first. And here was a case which had fundamentally got a functional [00:55:20] problem in the arrangement of maxilla to mandible. And I could [00:55:25] see that when it was brought to me. And they bring you the patient with [00:55:30] the camera crew and expect you to diagnose and treatment plan under the lights [00:55:35] and camera and everything rolling there and then and complete the case within [00:55:40] that six week window.

Payman Langroudi: Crazy isn’t it?

Raj Ahlowia: It’s crazy. It’s absolutely insane. [00:55:45] And you know, I didn’t realise before what I’d signed [00:55:50] up for. And now, if it was all veneer, it’s fine. You can kind of get away with it. But here was a [00:55:55] case that should never have been accepted. Yeah. And I said, after examining and taking all the pictures [00:56:00] and taking impressions and everything, I was thinking, how am I going to do this [00:56:05] case in six weeks? And I said, they’d shot all that. And then I [00:56:10] said to the producer, I said, you know, I don’t think this case can be done. Who? [00:56:15] Who do you not have someone approving these cases? And it was [00:56:20] a very well-known dentist at the time who had approved it. And I said, look, there’s [00:56:25] there’s fundamentally only a couple of ways this can be done. Her [00:56:30] jaw needs to be broken and brought back into position. It should be, which means it needs a full [00:56:35] class three osteotomy and the maxilla bringing forward at least a centimetre. I said, I [00:56:40] can’t do that, but if someone can do that and wire it and pin it or plate [00:56:45] it there, I can at least get the dentistry done and temporised to [00:56:50] look good. But fundamentally that that sort of class three has [00:56:55] got to be corrected. I said, who’s the guy doing the nose job? And [00:57:00] they said, oh, it’s this cosmetic surgeon in somewhere [00:57:05] in Kent. I said, okay, can you give me his number? And they said, yeah, so they’re there.

Raj Ahlowia: I [00:57:10] called from the practice reception and I got this guy on the phone and I said, listen, I’m, I hear you’re [00:57:15] the guy going to be doing the boob job and the nose job for this particular case, for the Extreme Makeover show. [00:57:20] He goes, yeah. I said, I’m the dentist on the case. And this lady’s, [00:57:25] um, got a class three malocclusion, but it’s a pseudo class three because a [00:57:30] maxilla is set smashed in. That’s why you’re doing the nose thing. He goes, [00:57:35] yeah. I said, any chance while you’re doing the nose job, you can do a Le four class [00:57:40] three osteotomy and bring a maxilla forward? I thought, he’s a plastic [00:57:45] surgeon. He’ll be able to do this. And if you pin it or screw it, plate it. Then [00:57:50] I can get the dentistry done afterwards, and it won’t be finished. But I’ll finish it after the camera crew go. [00:57:55] Um, and the patient would be okay with that coming back to me after the six weeks thing. [00:58:00] And he says, what do you want me to do? I said, a Le four class three osteotomy. [00:58:05] Bring a maxilla forward one centimetre and he goes, mate, I don’t know what you’re talking about. I just [00:58:10] do tits and noses. I was like, oh God, all right. So [00:58:15] I said to the producer, um, or the director. And on the day he was [00:58:20] there, I said, look, you need to call the guy who approved this case because I don’t know what to do.

Raj Ahlowia: I [00:58:25] said, next week I’m going off to meet my mentors in America. I [00:58:30] was doing another course at Pankey. I said, I’ve got everything I need for the case. [00:58:35] All the photographs, moulds, articulation, Facebook, everything. I’ll take [00:58:40] the case out there and see if they’ve got any ideas and if they can come up with a plan with me, then [00:58:45] maybe I can do it. But you need to talk to this other guy. So they rang this guy [00:58:50] up. I won’t name him. And he was like, oh yeah, I’ll take the case, bring your camera [00:58:55] crew over. I’ll snatch one episode off Raj and I’ll do it. And [00:59:00] so they went there with the camera crew And he looked at it and [00:59:05] then he realised it’s a mess and it can’t be done. [00:59:10] And he said to the patient with the cameras rolling, so here’s what we’re going to do. [00:59:15] We’re going to extract all your top teeth and we’re going to make you this amazing denture. [00:59:20] Now first of all, well, how is that television [00:59:25] quality? High level dentistry. It [00:59:30] isn’t. It isn’t the best of at the time, but [00:59:35] worse. The patient freaked out. And the patient went nuts and said, [00:59:40] there is no way I am letting that guy take my teeth out. I would rather be off [00:59:45] the show. So now the producers are on my case again, and they were like, right, [00:59:50] you’ve screwed us over because this woman is about to walk and we’re now short [00:59:55] a case for the for the episode.

Raj Ahlowia: We can’t get anybody in a hurry. And [01:00:00] I said, look. Whoa whoa whoa whoa. Whoa. I didn’t approve her for the show while [01:00:05] I was at a pancake. I waxed it up, and my mentors at Pankey [01:00:10] were looking at this articulation, and they were like, you’re seriously gonna take [01:00:15] this case? And I was like, yeah, if I protrude all the uppers [01:00:20] in the anterior segment and retro clean all the lows in the [01:00:25] lower anterior, I can get this into a class one relationship [01:00:30] from where she is. And they were looking at me like I’m nuts. [01:00:35] And I’m like, I’ve got to do this case because this for the TV show. And it ended [01:00:40] up being a 30 unit case to do it. Full [01:00:45] mouth rehab. And if there’s one case I regret [01:00:50] ever having taken on, it’s that one. But I pulled it off and [01:00:55] the woman was over the moon. Her family were over the moon. It looked incredible. [01:01:00] Her mother met me on the reveal day and said she [01:01:05] looks $1 million. Her husband met me and was shaking my hand and thanking me and [01:01:10] saying, how much would this have cost if we’d had done this? And I said, well, it’s about £40,000. [01:01:15] You know, to do this kind of.

Payman Langroudi: Pay, you.

Raj Ahlowia: Know, just I, [01:01:20] I said to these guys, I said, look, I’m going to do you a favour. I will do this for [01:01:25] free. That way it’s not going to cost you because I understand I’m going to get the exposure and this is going [01:01:30] to be the best marketing I can ever do for myself.

Payman Langroudi: Did your clinic go berserk? [01:01:35]

Raj Ahlowia: Yes it did. By all. In all the wrong ways. Oh, I was getting patients [01:01:40] from all over the world. I mean, I had patients [01:01:45] come from the Caribbean, from India, from [01:01:50] all over Europe. They’d seen me on the TV show. Weirdly, it was aired in [01:01:55] India and Australia. I don’t know how my cousins and uncles and aunties. So and, you know, and, [01:02:00] um. What I realised very [01:02:05] quickly was there’s two kinds of patients. The patients that I had [01:02:10] given to the show were patients who needed the dentistry. [01:02:15] They never wanted it. They had disease and [01:02:20] they were. And this lady who had the smashed up face that she never wanted to go [01:02:25] through the windscreen of a car, she needed the dental rehabilitation. She needed [01:02:30] the reconstruction of her nose. She didn’t want it. And those kind [01:02:35] of patients are incredibly grateful for what [01:02:40] you can do if you know how to do it. And even the ones who [01:02:45] come and need that kind of work and pay me for it, they understand the commitment [01:02:50] that they’re putting not only in time, um, in pain and suffering, going through [01:02:55] these treatments the cost. They understand all of that [01:03:00] and they appreciate it all. And at the end of it, they’re grateful. So those patients needed [01:03:05] it but never wanted, never wanted it. The [01:03:10] patient who wants cosmetic dentistry generally doesn’t need it. [01:03:15] They come because they want an outcome. Obviously there were those that did also. [01:03:20] But when you when when you have that kind of marketing that attracts [01:03:25] patient to the cosmetic element, the end outcome, the cosmetic element, [01:03:30] they have no concept of what how much dentistry it’s going to actually [01:03:35] be, how much suffering and pain and discomfort they’re going to have to go through to [01:03:40] achieve it.

Raj Ahlowia: And they’re not prepared for that. So they suffer more when [01:03:45] they have to endure it than the person who’s prepared for it. And they certainly don’t appreciate [01:03:50] how much it’s going to cost. There were some of them would would say, but [01:03:55] it only took you half an hour on the telly and it got no clue. They were watching a TV programme [01:04:00] and they see it’s done in half an hour, but then they think that that’s how long it takes in reality. I [01:04:05] mean, you know, there’s a there’s a level of ignorance that you expect from patients, but there’s another [01:04:10] level of ignorance beyond that. Some patients would, would contact [01:04:15] me, you know, with, with in their head. So I started to recognise very quickly [01:04:20] the type of patients I preferred treating in my practice now, still [01:04:25] working in Biggleswade in a humbly bubbly little general practice. That was [01:04:30] the fully all private practice in town, which was also [01:04:35] a new concept for the local community that, you know, they’re going to have to pay privately. So we lost a lot [01:04:40] of our NHS patients who just literally didn’t want to pay privately, but we kept a lot of patients [01:04:45] who were loyal to us, and that was great. But I was also also on TV. [01:04:50] I never marketed what I was doing on TV to my patients at [01:04:55] the general practice. If they just needed a filling and a cleaner polish, I just did a filling and a [01:05:00] cleaner polish. They discovered that I was doing this other stuff on TV, [01:05:05] and if they asked me about it and they wanted it, I would talk to them about [01:05:10] it and offer it to them.

Raj Ahlowia: But I was turning down more patients than I was [01:05:15] accepting to treat because they didn’t need it. And I was explaining to them that you don’t need it. I mean, I had [01:05:20] one patient who I’ve known him since he was a kid. He’s been BAFTA nominated as an actor [01:05:25] now, and he came to me in his 20s about cosmetic dentistry and I said, look, you’re [01:05:30] a character actor. If I do all this beautiful cosmetic [01:05:35] dentistry on you, it’s going to change the roles that you’ll be suitable [01:05:40] for. And even casting directors are going to look at your teeth and go, well, that’s a mismatch to the characters. [01:05:45] I said, think of people like Steve Buscemi. Steve Buscemi has got teeth that are all over the place. If [01:05:50] you suddenly gave him perfect, you know, Hollywood [01:05:55] makeover dentistry. He’s going to not look the [01:06:00] part for the characters he plays. And you’re that level of actor. So [01:06:05] he said, great, let’s just do a clean and a polish. I went, fantastic. So I turned down, [01:06:10] you know, £20,000 makeover from a Hollywood, you know, A-list actor [01:06:15] who is in that kind of movies. I turned down doing 20,000 [01:06:20] because I’ve known him since he’s a kid, and I know it’s wrong for him and he doesn’t need that. [01:06:25] He might have wanted it, but he doesn’t need it. And so I turned down. [01:06:30] I turned down a lot of work because I preferred being the humbly bumbling [01:06:35] general dentist. But I knew that if a patient needed that, [01:06:40] I had the ability.

Payman Langroudi: But do you agree that it’s not your decision? It’s the patient’s decision. You know, like in [01:06:45] in terms of consent, I mean, unless you’re not consenting.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah I. [01:06:50]

Payman Langroudi: Do.

Raj Ahlowia: And but I also know I don’t have to do the [01:06:55] dentistry that they want. Yeah, there’s plenty of other dentists out there who can do it. So [01:07:00] there was very few big cosmetic cases that I took [01:07:05] on of patients that I didn’t know, patients of my own who needed it [01:07:10] and wanted it. Great.

Payman Langroudi: But didn’t the practice get flooded with patients because of the TV? [01:07:15] Yeah. So you turn most of those down, did you?

Raj Ahlowia: A lot. I took I took on some, but [01:07:20] I would field them. By this time. Email was now a thing. I would field [01:07:25] them via email and they were all over the place. And I would meet them sometimes in cafes, restaurants, hotels [01:07:30] where I was lecturing. Um, there was one I remember, uh, it was, um, [01:07:35] a young girl who had, um, uh, amelogenesis [01:07:40] imperfecta. So all these tiny, diminutive teeth. And, [01:07:45] uh, She was somewhere up in Liverpool and [01:07:50] I was going up to Manchester for something. And I contacted a really, [01:07:55] really good friend of mine who worked in Manchester, and I said, listen, do you mind if I examine this girl [01:08:00] at your practice? Sit in with me. And, um, so we [01:08:05] met up at this. Sorry, my phone’s ringing stopped. Um, [01:08:10] so we met up at his practice. Patient came over and he was sitting [01:08:15] with me, and we examined her. And it was a very clear case of amelogenesis imperfecta. So there’s all these dentine [01:08:20] shapes with no enamel on top. And I said, well, you know, none of [01:08:25] these teeth need prepping. All they need is the right shape enamel [01:08:30] putting on top. This would be a slam dunk case for someone with a cerec machine. [01:08:35] And I said, well, my colleague here, he’s a brilliant dentist and he’s [01:08:40] very versed in cerec. Um, why don’t you just bring your daughter to see [01:08:45] him. So I gave another £20,000 worth case away to my friend [01:08:50] because the patient’s right there. He can come from Liverpool to Manchester very easily. So, [01:08:55] you know, there were cases that needed needed help. [01:09:00] It wasn’t a case of wanting just cosmetics. So I would [01:09:05] filter the cases and I would talk to the ones that needed the dentistry and helped them [01:09:10] either with a referral to somebody more local to them, or I’d do it myself.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:09:15] a bit strange for a cosmetic dentist to be saying this.

Raj Ahlowia: But why not a cosmetic dentist? Yeah, I hate that label. Yeah, [01:09:20] I walked away from.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I wouldn’t characterise you as a [01:09:25] cosmetic dentist.

Raj Ahlowia: I walked away from that side of dentistry right in the early stages of the bacd. [01:09:30] Because. Because fundamentally.

Payman Langroudi: Occlusion. Occlusion expert.

Raj Ahlowia: That’s more like [01:09:35] it. Because to me, that is fundamentally overarching, [01:09:40] um, the cosmetic side is what [01:09:45] the patient wants it to look like at the end. So if there’s if there’s a full [01:09:50] mouth rehabilitation case to be done. If you don’t [01:09:55] make it cosmetically pleasing, in the end, the patient’s unhappy. [01:10:00] You could have done the best implant work. The best grafting work. [01:10:05] Sinus lifts all the perio preparation, temporary ization for [01:10:10] six months or whatever. Planning and got it all functionally [01:10:15] pristine. But if it doesn’t look nice, the [01:10:20] patient’s going to complain about that. So you have to understand cosmetics [01:10:25] as part of the full mouth rehabilitation learning [01:10:30] process. But beyond the cosmetics, the one thing that has to be [01:10:35] perfect or as close to perfect as you can get it or has to be right for that [01:10:40] patient is the function, because if the function is wrong, it doesn’t matter how [01:10:45] good you got that cosmetic end result, they’re going to smash it to pieces. Now they’re not all going [01:10:50] to smash it to pieces. But what I what I discovered as I was doing a lot of these cases was [01:10:55] when I was looking at what has caused this patient to get this way. [01:11:00]

Raj Ahlowia: There was a huge amount of them that the disease [01:11:05] process was a functional problem. So they were smashing their own teeth up because [01:11:10] of their own function or the function that had been given [01:11:15] to them on previous dentistry, and they were breaking it apart like the woman with the bridge in [01:11:20] a pseudo class three, that she was just shattering all the enamel off it, you know. So, so [01:11:25] where there was a functional element in the, um, [01:11:30] aetiology, you have to factor [01:11:35] that their function if you don’t get it right for them if, [01:11:40] say, they’re a power function or whatever, if you don’t get it right for them, they’re just going to destroy [01:11:45] your dentistry too. And all dentistry is ultimately [01:11:50] going to get destroyed. You will never get it perfect. And in a way that it’s indestructible. [01:11:55] Um, so the most dentistry you’ll do in your career if you’re in a practice [01:12:00] like I was for my entire career from 33 years. You’re the [01:12:05] the most dentistry you’re going to do is repairs on your own work.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Raj Ahlowia: It’s all going to come back [01:12:10] needing to be done. Because one of the things I said to my students is none of us [01:12:15] in dentistry are as good as the dentist in the sky, and none of us have [01:12:20] the materials of Mother Nature, that big dentist in the sky. His work and Mother Nature’s [01:12:25] work is the best dentistry there is. So if you can maintain it [01:12:30] without it having to ever be touched by one of your drills or lasers [01:12:35] or whatever tool To the show, you know, then that’s [01:12:40] the best that can be in the patient’s mouth. Now, it may not [01:12:45] be pretty and aligned beautifully, but there are ways you can help them with [01:12:50] that. But the moment you take a drill to it, or the moment it’s got caries or whatever, then [01:12:55] their work, that beautiful stuff that Mother Nature and the big dentist in the [01:13:00] sky gave them is ruined, right? And it will [01:13:05] always need maintenance. Your work is not going to last [01:13:10] that well as a pristine tooth.

Payman Langroudi: So your your sort [01:13:15] of interest in, in occlusion. Of course you did all of panki did [01:13:20] you. I mean, how did you end up being the seclusion guy? Did you just keep on following?

Raj Ahlowia: What [01:13:25] happened was I was in a hurry to learn all the party, and I was going out [01:13:30] to the States a lot. Yeah. And learning it all in a hurry, [01:13:35] back to back, sometimes doing back to back weeks. And the people [01:13:40] that were teaching me at Pankey there were only four. They were discussing the fact [01:13:45] that, you know, I was doing something that nobody had ever done before. They were telling me that the average Pankey [01:13:50] student spends a decade doing all of their continuum. They [01:13:55] do a module, they go and implement that module. Then they come back and learn the next bit [01:14:00] and they implement that bit. Yeah. And I said, well, then [01:14:05] they’re taking ten years to get the knowledge. The final bit. I said I need it now because [01:14:10] I’m doing it now. Yeah. And they knew I was doing it now because I was doing it on bloody TV show. [01:14:15] Yeah. So by the end of that year, they had [01:14:20] gotten to know me really well, much better than the other students that were coming [01:14:25] once a year. I was there ten weeks out of that [01:14:30] year.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: At the end of it, They said, would you like to teach for us [01:14:35] as a visiting instructor? Because they could see I was already [01:14:40] doing it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: And I said, yeah, I’d love to. So right [01:14:45] out of being, um, a student, I became a Pankey visiting [01:14:50] instructor.

Payman Langroudi: Which module did you teach?

Raj Ahlowia: I was teaching module [01:14:55] one, the very first one. But then very soon after that [01:15:00] they had a they had a group. It was 100 people strong. It was their [01:15:05] clinical board of education. And they put me on [01:15:10] that.

Payman Langroudi: Does it always work like that? Do you always end up teaching model one, module one and then work your way through the module? [01:15:15]

Raj Ahlowia: No, I don’t think it works like that. It comes down to what you’re most suited to. And, um, [01:15:20] so, uh, I just ended up teaching module one. [01:15:25] Yeah. Um, but I would also be invited to [01:15:30] come over every September for their big annual meeting of these hundred, where [01:15:35] they’d make decisions and decide how things were going to progress and [01:15:40] make changes and all the rest of it. Now, the problem with that was their weekend [01:15:45] always seemed to clash, or their week always seemed to clash with my birthday. So [01:15:50] I was always leaving my family on my birthday week to go and be [01:15:55] at a meeting with these hundred other people. And this [01:16:00] was right about the time where video conferencing over the internet [01:16:05] could have been done. And myself and two other Brits [01:16:10] were the only three non Americans having to fly over there, and it was just getting a bit much. [01:16:15] I was also at the same time as that was going on, I ended up being, um, [01:16:20] a visiting faculty instructor for Spear in Arizona. [01:16:25] Um, weirdly, I.

Payman Langroudi: Had you completed all of Speer as well.

Raj Ahlowia: No. [01:16:30] No. How I met Frank was a bit strange. I [01:16:35] was on this journey of learning. I completed All Panky, and I said to Gary [01:16:40] Durwood, who was my my mentor at panky. I said to Gary, you know, what’s [01:16:45] the next thing for me to learn? And he said, well, you know, you really ought to listen [01:16:50] to Frank Speer. I said, okay. Who’s he? I had no [01:16:55] clue who Frank was. And he said, look, Frank is coming to give [01:17:00] a one week masterclass here at panky. You should sign up for that. So [01:17:05] I took Gary at his word, and I signed up for the one week masterclass with. [01:17:10] With Frank at panky. And I had a favourite seat at panky. It [01:17:15] was in the corner at the back row. So I sat in my seat. Frank [01:17:20] comes in and didn’t know what he looked like before he turned up. And Frank’s method [01:17:25] when he’s got these little masterclasses in 24 of us and all 24 [01:17:30] were Pankey alumni, and almost all 24 were Pankey visiting instructors. [01:17:35] Because we’d got the early information that Frank is going to be doing this masterclass. [01:17:40] So we got in quick and booked it. And Frank’s methodology is [01:17:45] that he puts together the week based on what the people in [01:17:50] the masterclass want to learn. So he started with the first person in the front row and he said, why don’t [01:17:55] you tell me your name? Tell me a little bit about you and your dentistry, where you’re on your career, and tell [01:18:00] me, what’s the major burning issue that you’d like to see covered this week? And [01:18:05] it went through 23 people.

Raj Ahlowia: And then it got to me and I’d heard 23 [01:18:10] problems that I don’t really have. Gary was standing in the doorway over here. Frank’s [01:18:15] at the front. I’m in the corner at the back row. And I said to Frank, I said, listen, [01:18:20] Frank, I don’t know who you are. I’d never heard of you. It’s only [01:18:25] Gary over there. He told me I ought to do this week with you. I don’t really have any problems [01:18:30] with my dentistry, but I’m on a journey of learning. And Gary said, you’re the next person [01:18:35] in my journey that I should be listening to. But what I’ve just heard is 23 problems that I [01:18:40] don’t have. And I said, I don’t really have a [01:18:45] burning issue in dentistry. And if I gave you one, then all I’d get out of the week is the answer to one [01:18:50] problem. I said, Frank, what I’d rather hear from you is [01:18:55] how you think. I want to understand the process by which you solve problems. [01:19:00] Because if you’re the man, if you’re the man who knows all the answers to all the problems, [01:19:05] either you’ve got somebody, you go and ask or [01:19:10] you have to figure out the answers yourself. So I want to know next who [01:19:15] the people you ask the solutions to problems that you’ve got because they’re the [01:19:20] next person in my journey. Or you tell me how you solve problems. [01:19:25] And Frank never really been spoken to by anybody like that [01:19:30] before, I guess I don’t know.

Raj Ahlowia: But Gary knew what I’m like, and he was just giggling in the doorway [01:19:35] because he knew what I’m like. And I was very honest. I was just telling it straight like it is. You’re [01:19:40] a person in my journey, and then I want to know who you learn from. That’s the next person in my journey. And [01:19:45] so Frank said, well, you know, that’s really interesting. He goes, let me start by answering you. So [01:19:50] he started to tell a story about how he grew up with a father who was a mechanic. [01:19:55] And even as a small, very young toddler, his father would speak [01:20:00] to him like an adult when it came to the mechanics of cars. And he explained where [01:20:05] I’ve got a problem with the car, I’ve got to think through what could it be? And I have to [01:20:10] mentally imagine, rather than test it on the car. I’ve got to mentally imagine what will happen if I do [01:20:15] this or do this and figure out which is the best solution, and then do it. But do it in a way [01:20:20] that I don’t mess the car up more. And Frank said, you know, that’s how [01:20:25] I approach problems in dentistry. I think up solutions that are reversible and [01:20:30] measurable, testable. And then I execute the one that I think [01:20:35] is right. But I’ve also got a group of colleagues that I work with who I go to [01:20:40] to ask their opinions on complex cases. And as a group we come up with the best solution. [01:20:45] And it’s been about 45 minutes talking to the group about this [01:20:50] and answering my question.

Raj Ahlowia: He goes, is that good for you? And I said, yeah, great. He said, well, [01:20:55] you’ve got now an easy week. I said, yeah, I’ve got an easy week. Now at the end of that day, [01:21:00] they had planned that we were all going to go out to this Marina [01:21:05] with a lovely restaurant and have drinks. And Gary told [01:21:10] me, Frank, you won’t see Frank there. And I said, why not? He goes, well, Frank doesn’t like socialising [01:21:15] with his students. And I said, why? He goes, well, you know, they [01:21:20] constantly just keep bombarding him with questions. Now, I didn’t understand that until [01:21:25] I became a lecturer. And I understood that the students want from [01:21:30] you even in the break times, even in the lunch break. And Frank needed [01:21:35] to decompress after a long day like that. And he didn’t want to be socialising with the students, [01:21:40] so he never did. And I thought, oh, I’m not having that. So I [01:21:45] went up to him at the lunch break. I go, Frank, we’re going to have drinks. And I heard he’d like scotch. [01:21:50] We’re going to do some shots and scotch. And I badgered him and bombarded [01:21:55] him on just talking about whisky and nothing to do with dentistry at the lunch break. Completely [01:22:00] the opposite of what everybody else in the group was doing. And I said, Frank, you’re coming to this bloody [01:22:05] dinner tonight. Be sure of it. And I did that hand magic trick. [01:22:10] Him and Frank do it.

Payman Langroudi: Frank can do it.

Raj Ahlowia: And there was [01:22:15] another guy, another dentist called Larry Brewer. And Larry Brewer is an interesting guy because he’s also [01:22:20] a stage comedian. And Larry could do it. And Frank was like, he got really frustrated [01:22:25] and I got Larry Brewer can do it. I need to know how to do this trick. And we had a great [01:22:30] time, and it was nothing to do with dentistry. There was no talk about dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: When [01:22:35] you the way that you asked that question to Frank spear, [01:22:40] do you do that to be provocative or do you, [01:22:45] do you are you not self-aware in so much as I’m not.

Raj Ahlowia: Self-aware, I [01:22:50] just thought it’s natural.

Payman Langroudi: Or are you just just saying, like the brain mouth connection? You [01:22:55] just you just say, just say whatever’s in your head and you’re cool with it.

Raj Ahlowia: My dad was a very good communicator. [01:23:00] Yeah, he could read people, and he knew what the right thing [01:23:05] to say was to help people get somewhere. Now, that’s a nice talent to have. Yeah. [01:23:10] Um, I’m not quite as natural as my dad, but I’m quite [01:23:15] good at reading people because I’m good at reading faces, because I’m constantly looking at faces and I can read [01:23:20] their emotional state.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it was an amazing outcome there and then here because it’s Frank spear, it’s [01:23:25] America where you can kind of get away with this sort of thing.

Raj Ahlowia: What I figured was if [01:23:30] I’m just like every other student and I’m just badgering him about [01:23:35] dentistry, I’m just like every other student to him. Yeah, but if I come at him [01:23:40] another way because I wanted him to come and join us, I was like, I was surprised that he wasn’t going.

Payman Langroudi: No, I meant the initial question that [01:23:45] you know about.

Raj Ahlowia: Tell me how you learned how you solve problems. I want to [01:23:50] learn. No, that was genuinely what I wanted to know.

Payman Langroudi: You just wanted to know that.

Raj Ahlowia: That was because. [01:23:55]

Payman Langroudi: I guess it’s your one moment to talk in the events.

Raj Ahlowia: I had to give a reason [01:24:00] for what I wanted, why I was there, what I wanted to learn from Frank. [01:24:05] And honestly, Gary had begged him up like he’s the best dentist in the world. [01:24:10] And maybe he is right. And so I thought, well, if he is, [01:24:15] then he might be. He might not be. And if he isn’t, I want to know who above him he [01:24:20] goes to for advice. So he’s genuinely asking, thinking of him like another stepping stone in my [01:24:25] journey. And it was genuine. The question, and it was also genuine, that answering [01:24:30] the questions of 23 problems is interesting. That’s fine, but [01:24:35] how did you work out the answers is more interesting to me because I’m a problem [01:24:40] solver.

Payman Langroudi: Delegates delegates don’t want that. I mean, it’s the right way to teach, the right way to teach. [01:24:45] Definitely. But I find delegates want like a, B, c do this, do this, do [01:24:50] this. That’s okay. They want it. Cookie cutter.

Raj Ahlowia: That’s okay. And that’s okay. If you give them that [01:24:55] that’s okay.

Payman Langroudi: No, no. If you don’t think it’s the right way to teach I think the right teach is what you’re saying. The thought [01:25:00] process. Right.

Raj Ahlowia: The thought processes. That’s that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Is that how you teach?

Raj Ahlowia: In a way. Yeah, yeah, [01:25:05] in a way.

Payman Langroudi: The thought process.

Raj Ahlowia: I tell my students, my thought processes [01:25:10] as I’m You know, telling them, you know, everything [01:25:15] that I teach in, in dentistry because my, my courses when I was teaching them were fully comprehensive. [01:25:20] I taught the function, but I also taught the aesthetics, I taught the communication, I [01:25:25] taught the photography, I taught about all the individual branches [01:25:30] of dentistry and how they all connect together. So my course, I often described it as [01:25:35] a jigsaw box cover. Everybody else’s course is a piece [01:25:40] in the box. Now you can go on one course and you’ve got one piece of the puzzle. [01:25:45] You can go another course, you’ve got another piece of the puzzle, but you don’t know how to connect them together unless [01:25:50] you’ve got the box cover and nobody gives you the box cover. So my course [01:25:55] was the jigsaw puzzle box cover. There’s all the components are there. I’m going to [01:26:00] show you how they all fit together.

Payman Langroudi: How long was it?

Raj Ahlowia: 44 hours.

Payman Langroudi: So what? Three, [01:26:05] four days?

Raj Ahlowia: Four days? 11 hours each. Now, when you’re teaching for 11 [01:26:10] hours. It’s tiring, but you’re not even stopping in the break [01:26:15] times because in the break times, they’re on you again. Yeah. Now, in [01:26:20] an 11 hour course, there’s going to be a few people, excuse me, who are nodding [01:26:25] off.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: And you can help them to come back in by because [01:26:30] it’s interactive. Posing a question to them to help them bring them back. You can see they’re they’re [01:26:35] flagging a bit or they’re not getting something a bit. But you as the teacher at [01:26:40] the front, you can’t take a break. You can’t flag. And I didn’t mind also [01:26:45] socialising because I know the students want that time with you. They want [01:26:50] to, um, talk about other things, but also about things [01:26:55] in dentistry that aren’t part of the course. Practice life, anything, whatever [01:27:00] it might be. Journey next person to talk to. So I would go out for dinner with them. And so [01:27:05] the thing never ended. It was, you know, till midnight, 1 a.m. sometimes, and then you’re [01:27:10] back the next morning, 8 a.m. you have to be sharp and you have to stay sharp. So I would do it in two [01:27:15] chunks of two days. And on the third day, on a Sunday, I would be dead. [01:27:20] I would be cramping because I’d been standing up all day and I’m talking [01:27:25] all day. My voice would be gone. But also the mental exhaustion [01:27:30] from having to stay focussed and concentrate because you don’t know what questions are going to fire at you. And it could be [01:27:35] anything in dentistry, because your course is about everything in dentistry, and [01:27:40] they might be struggling with an ortho element. They might be struggling with sinus [01:27:45] lift technique or, um, implant integration, or it doesn’t have to be just about function [01:27:50] or some concept of communication, photography, blah, blah blah. Whatever [01:27:55] it is, talk to them about it. Tell them your experiences.

Payman Langroudi: You’re the [01:28:00] best way to learn is to learn by looking at your own errors [01:28:05] the way you were would describe it, and not many people have the privilege of spending that many [01:28:10] years in one place. You’re right. Um, what were key moments, key [01:28:15] failures that you saw that kind of shifted your mindset and thought, I’ve got to do things differently, [01:28:20] or I should have.

Raj Ahlowia: There was certainly that case of the lady that went through the windshield. Yeah. [01:28:25] She was the case that made me realise about the difference between a cosmetic [01:28:30] patient and a patient in need. And I didn’t want to be a cosmetic dentist, [01:28:35] so I shied away from that label. I shied away from everything to do with cosmetic dentistry. [01:28:40] I was more interested in the functional and rehabilitative, rehabilitative, [01:28:45] rehabilitative type of dentistry. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Did [01:28:50] you see, for instance, the work that you’ve done, the Rosenthal type work come back stained [01:28:55] and, you know, chipped, maybe.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. Yeah. And I would do whatever it needed to put [01:29:00] it right. Um, but luckily, because I was on such a rapid transition [01:29:05] within a couple of years.

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t do that many.

Raj Ahlowia: There wasn’t that many. Yeah, there [01:29:10] wasn’t that many. Yeah. And because.

Payman Langroudi: The majority.

Raj Ahlowia: Of cases.

Payman Langroudi: The majority of the work [01:29:15] that you did over all these years, was it sort of the big cases were full mouth rehabs. [01:29:20]

Raj Ahlowia: 99% of the dentistry is bog standard check-up two fillings?

Payman Langroudi: No, but the big cases were [01:29:25] like full mouth rehab. That became a thing that.

Raj Ahlowia: Were full mouth [01:29:30] rehab cases. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Did you have to replace those along the way as well?

Raj Ahlowia: Thankfully not too many.

Payman Langroudi: Weirdly, [01:29:35] bits here and there. Right. Like 1 or 2.

Raj Ahlowia: Interestingly, one of the first full mouth [01:29:40] rehab cases I did was on this incredibly [01:29:45] powerful businessman who, um, you know, he, [01:29:50] he, um, buys whole chains of shops and owns [01:29:55] them, and. He it’s interesting how he [01:30:00] became a patient. He was the first patient to contact the practice. After [01:30:05] I’d put an advert in our local village magazine about [01:30:10] implant dentistry, and he spent £40,000 on a full mouth rehab. [01:30:15] About. Oh, God. 20 odd years ago.

Payman Langroudi: When £40,000 was money. Yeah. [01:30:20] Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: And interestingly, he never really came back [01:30:25] until a couple of weeks ago.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Raj Ahlowia: He’s come back because he [01:30:30] had fractured as a conia bridge and [01:30:35] it needed to be replaced. Everything else in his mouth was great. Just the bridge [01:30:40] needed replacing. I’m actually retired, but my associate is handling the case, [01:30:45] and she asked me to pop in and have a look and give her advice on because she didn’t [01:30:50] know what she was going to find underneath. And actually, when we looked at it underneath, the implants were great. [01:30:55] Bone levels were fantastic on the radiographs. Whoever had been going to has been looking [01:31:00] after it really well and he’s been looking after it really well. So it’s really nice to see one [01:31:05] of my first major, um, full mouth rehabs.

Payman Langroudi: Do [01:31:10] you still mentor your associates?

Raj Ahlowia: Uh, yeah, when they want it. Two of them were former students [01:31:15] who’d done my course. Um, one of them was a very good friend of one of them. [01:31:20] Um. Uh, since then, I’ve taken on an implantology who was [01:31:25] mentored by somebody that was my student 15 years ago. And he’s taken [01:31:30] over all of my implant work and is doing wonderful things. He’s very well known himself. [01:31:35] Um, I won’t name. I don’t embarrass people, but, uh, you know, he’s a big name in Implantology.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:31:40] could name him Prav.

Raj Ahlowia: Cairo. I mean, he’s he’s fantastic. When I, when I retired, I [01:31:45] was forced to retire. Um, I’ve got no feeling in my left hand. Oh, um, due to a [01:31:50] problem in my spine. In my neck. Um, so I’ve got a disc that is slipped [01:31:55] forwards, and it’s kinking my spinal cord. And there’s [01:32:00] separate, um, osteophytes on the the, um, uh, [01:32:05] vertebra. That is caused my arm to have [01:32:10] spasming lightning bolts of pain, and my hand has gone numb. So I’ve got [01:32:15] medication for, uh, the pain which suppresses the pain. It doesn’t [01:32:20] get rid of it, but it suppresses it. Um, but it does nothing for the numbness in my head. So this all happened [01:32:25] about a year ago, and I got in touch with Pav. Pav was in between [01:32:30] kind of, uh, jobs. Jobs he wasn’t. He was. He [01:32:35] was kind of looking for something new. And I said, look, this has happened to me. Would you mind stepping in and taking [01:32:40] over all my, uh, implant work? And I said to my associates, would you like to [01:32:45] take over all my patients? I split my patients between the associates. And I [01:32:50] spoke to all the patients that came in for six months individually and explained [01:32:55] that I’m retiring, and, um. All my associates are lovely, and, uh. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How [01:33:00] does it psychologically leave you? I mean, okay, physically, you’ve got the problem with your hand and pain, but psychologically, [01:33:05] was it difficult stopping?

Raj Ahlowia: No. It’s like flipping a switch. I’m very good at that. I [01:33:10] can just flip a switch in my head. That’s it. The dentistry switch is off. I’m out. I’m done. [01:33:15] Don’t regret it, I. There’s nothing in my career I’ve regretted doing. [01:33:20] Um. Everything is. Do you miss it? No, no, I’ve got enough other [01:33:25] interests that I’ve now got time to explore and develop and indulge [01:33:30] in and enjoy. Um. It happened at a time where, um, [01:33:35] my mother needed, um, more 1 to 1 care. And [01:33:40] so my mum lives with me most of the years. Then from now. And then she goes and stays with my sister or my [01:33:45] brother gives me a little bit of a break, um, so I can take her to all the hospital appointments [01:33:50] that that was really useful, that it all happened at exactly the same time. Um, [01:33:55] so yeah, me and my mum hang out at home and I take her to her things and I go to my [01:34:00] hospital appointments and I indulge in my photography. I’ve seen photography. [01:34:05]

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about that. I mean, I mean, obviously photography from what did it start with? Dental. And then.

Raj Ahlowia: Well, I mentioned [01:34:10] that I had a different first job, which was my summer job as a teenager when I was a kid. And, [01:34:15] um, all of my little friend group, when I was about 15 or [01:34:20] 16, um, they had little Saturday jobs and I thought, I’ll get a Saturday job, too. And the girls in [01:34:25] our little group all had Saturday jobs at Boots in Saint Albans. And it’s a big boot. And [01:34:30] back in the day it was like a proper department store. It sold [01:34:35] computers and cameras and all sorts. [01:34:40] And I applied for a job and I got the job and, [01:34:45] uh, they decided, what can they put a 16 year old geeky kid on? [01:34:50] I will put them on computers and cameras. This. I was more on the camera side than [01:34:55] the computer side, and I knew more about computers at that [01:35:00] time because I was one of those computer geeky teenagers and I knew all the computers, but I [01:35:05] ended up being put on cameras. And so at the age of 16 or 17, I had [01:35:10] to very rapidly learn everything I could about [01:35:15] all the different models of cameras that they had. They had all sorts of Nikon F1’s, [01:35:20] um, canon E1’s, minolta, um, all SLR, um, [01:35:25] uh, analogue. It was no digital back then, but they also had all the way down to the instamatics [01:35:30] and instamatics and the Polaroids. I remember Kodak instant cameras [01:35:35] at the time, and we used to take film and do processing, um.

Payman Langroudi: As [01:35:40] part of boots as part of the job.

Raj Ahlowia: But we had the full range of incredibly [01:35:45] expensive cameras that I had to learn.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s where it [01:35:50] started.

Raj Ahlowia: I learned. I learned what the differences were between them, what all the functions were, what [01:35:55] you know, f stops and ISO and shutter speeds, all that meant. And [01:36:00] so before I started at guys, I already already had [01:36:05] a very keen interest in photography and had a pretty expensive camera. [01:36:10] So at our freshers ball, I was the guy with an SLR [01:36:15] camera with a boom arm and a flashgun on it, taking pictures and throughout [01:36:20] predated dentistry. It predated dentistry and I.

Payman Langroudi: But then these projects that you’ve been doing, some [01:36:25] of them I saw like high end fashion type projects.

Raj Ahlowia: I’ve been doing that level [01:36:30] of photography for about a decade. I’ve been doing more of those now. Um, [01:36:35] actually, I was doing more of them before, but [01:36:40] because I’m looking after my mum a lot, I had more selective now, um, [01:36:45] of what I do, um, and what I arranged to do, what [01:36:50] I take on doing. But I get approached by a lot of aspiring models wanting [01:36:55] headshots and glamour shots. And again, I reject more than I accept [01:37:00] because I don’t have as much time. I do some Dental [01:37:05] practice photography, so headshots for practices and [01:37:10] and for their websites I’ll do photography. Um, yeah, I enjoy [01:37:15] that. Um, it’s not the only hobby I had throughout my career, but it’s [01:37:20] it’s one that I indulge a bit now. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What was the other one?

Raj Ahlowia: Oh. Flying aeroplanes. [01:37:25] Remember?

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Have you got a pilot’s license?

Raj Ahlowia: I wanted to be an airline.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, of course, of course, of course.

Raj Ahlowia: My first [01:37:30] NHS paycheque. I think it was the first paycheque. I blew [01:37:35] it all on flying lessons. That’s. That’s a funny story. I was, um. Got [01:37:40] the job in Biggleswade. I was living [01:37:45] at home with my parents. It was September. I was sitting in the garden, one [01:37:50] of the last nice sunny days of summer. And this tiny little aeroplane [01:37:55] flew across the sky. It was a beautiful, pure blue sky. And [01:38:00] I had the local Saint Albans. If you’re from Saint Albans, Saint Albans, you [01:38:05] call it snowbirds. So I had the local snowbirds rag in front of me. I was flicking [01:38:10] through it and got to the, you know, little box ad pages, and there was this tiny little box [01:38:15] ad, and all it had was a graphic of a little plane, just like the one that had flown over. And [01:38:20] underneath it said trial flying lesson, £50 and a phone [01:38:25] number in Watford. Leavesden Aerodrome, which is now Warner [01:38:30] Brothers Studios, where they have the Harry Potter world. But back then it was [01:38:35] a a little local flying strip, uh, airstrip with [01:38:40] a flying club. So I rang this number and a Welsh guy. [01:38:45] Young Welsh guy picked up the phone and I said, I’ve just seen your advert in the Saint [01:38:50] Albans paper about flying lessons for £50. And he goes, yeah, I said, I’d [01:38:55] like to do that. And he said, okay, well we can probably fit you in in about three weeks [01:39:00] time, blah, blah, blah. I’ve got a date here. And I said, oh, um, I [01:39:05] was hoping to do it today. It’s such a lovely day, and I’ve just seen this little plane fly over.

Raj Ahlowia: And he goes, [01:39:10] well, um, can’t really do it today. I mean, the the planes get booked out [01:39:15] and there’s people on lessons and all the rest of it. Um, so we haven’t really got anything until, you know, a couple [01:39:20] of weeks time. I went, oh, okay, then let’s book it in. So we booked it in. Put the [01:39:25] phone down, came back out to the garden and sit with my mum. And, uh, another [01:39:30] little tiny plane flies over and I’m, like, itchy. [01:39:35] And, um, this is just how I am when I want to learn something. I’m itching to do it there and [01:39:40] then. So I picked up the phone. I rang him again, and I go, are you sure there’s [01:39:45] no way we can do it today? And he goes, look. Planes are coming back [01:39:50] and planes are going out. Planes coming back. If a plane comes back early before it’s booked [01:39:55] to go out again, then there’s an opportunity that we might have 20 minutes, half an hour to do it. But you’re [01:40:00] going to have to come over here and sit and wait. If you’re prepared to do that, then okay. But I can’t guarantee [01:40:05] that a window will open up. But if that’s okay with you, that’s okay with you. So I [01:40:10] said, fine. Yeah, I’ll shoot over. So we lived only about a ten minute drive away from Saint Albans [01:40:15] to Watford. It’s only about ten minutes. Uh, back then, when the traffic wasn’t as bad as it is now, and [01:40:20] I shot down to Leavesden and, um, met this guy. Vaughn Jeffries [01:40:25] was his name.

Raj Ahlowia: And he said, right. Well, funnily enough, since you called, we’ve had on the [01:40:30] radio that someone’s coming back and the plane they’re bringing back is not due to go out again for [01:40:35] about 45 minutes. So we’ve got a window, but before we’ll do a little bit of [01:40:40] ground school. So we’re going to classroom. Is that okay with you? And then when the plane comes in, uh, we’ll [01:40:45] take it off in about 15 minutes or so. I said great. So took me into little [01:40:50] classroom, and there’s a blackboard and a little model wooden aeroplane [01:40:55] with ailerons and rudder and all the rest of it. And, uh, he starts [01:41:00] talking to me about what ailerons do and the, you know, profile [01:41:05] of a wing and how it creates lift. And I just stopped smirking. And [01:41:10] he looks at me and he goes, is something funny? And I said, no, [01:41:15] it’s just that, you know, you’re teaching me all this baby stuff. And [01:41:20] he goes, you mean baby stuff? I said, well, I kind of knew all this when I was four years old. [01:41:25] And he goes, you knew this when you were four years old. And I said, well, yeah. And [01:41:30] he goes, all right, well explain to me how lift works. I explained about the air pressures alone. My [01:41:35] parents indulged everything I had an interest in and [01:41:40] from four years old they used to buy me books and magazines about aviation. Loved [01:41:45] it. Didn’t have comics. I had books about planes and wings [01:41:50] magazine was a thing, right? So I would read these things avidly from cover to cover, [01:41:55] even though I didn’t like reading something I was interested in and passionate about.

Raj Ahlowia: Knew everything [01:42:00] about it. And I’d read about famous pilots and, you [01:42:05] know, Douglas Bader movies. I’d love watching all that stuff. Dam Busters um, [01:42:10] one of my favourite books was a book called samurai, which wasn’t about samurai. It was about a guy called Saburo Sakai, who [01:42:15] was the top fighter pilot for Japan during World War Two. I mean, he blew [01:42:20] everybody else away in World War Two. He was the number one ace pilot, but his life [01:42:25] story and journey was was fascinating. So I had a pilot mentality, and [01:42:30] I’m looking at what he’s showing this little model aeroplane thinking it’s all baby stuff. So he goes, all right, [01:42:35] fine, let’s go. So he grabbed the the keys to the plane and he taxied it out [01:42:40] to the end of the runway, and he goes, all right, superstar, smart ass. What are you going to do to take off? [01:42:45] He goes, you’re in control. And I went, what? And he goes, you know everything. [01:42:50] What do you do? And I said, well, full power. Keep [01:42:55] it in a straight line and it will do it. It’ll take off. And he goes, okay, [01:43:00] go on then. There’s your throttle. So I said, really? He goes, yeah, do it. So I push the throttle [01:43:05] full forward. He said, you don’t worry about keeping a straight line, I’ll do that. And we’re hurtling [01:43:10] down the runway and without doing anything, an aeroplane will. When it hits [01:43:15] the right airspeed, you don’t have to pull back on the yoke or anything. It will lift off.

Payman Langroudi: The [01:43:20] runway needs to be long enough to get to that speed.

Raj Ahlowia: With [01:43:25] most aircraft. They’re going to accelerate to that speed anyway when you put it full [01:43:30] throttle. Otherwise, they wouldn’t be on the runway anyway. And you do not need to pull back on the yoke. [01:43:35] It will take off regardless. And then you pull back on the yoke [01:43:40] to get more height. You’re going to have the airspeed anyway to get lift. [01:43:45] And as you pull back, your airspeed is going to actually drop because [01:43:50] you’re pulling back. But you’re getting lift more lift in. In exchange for [01:43:55] that. So the aeroplane takes off and we go flying for about half an hour and [01:44:00] we get up over 2000ft. And there is a wispy [01:44:05] layer of cloud beneath us. And you know, those romantic [01:44:10] images of a Scottish loch with a mist on the surface in the early [01:44:15] morning like milk? That’s how the cloud was, that we [01:44:20] were above, and the air above that layer was so [01:44:25] delicate and smooth. We [01:44:30] were floating on this milk bed. But the engine note [01:44:35] becomes a whisper when there’s less air. Buffett and [01:44:40] I just turned to Vaughn, and I said, Vaughn, I was born to fly. [01:44:45] We came back down and I said to Vaughn, so, you know, how much does it cost [01:44:50] to learn to fly? And he goes, well, um, it’s not about how much it cost to learn to fly.

Raj Ahlowia: It’s [01:44:55] you’ve got to do 50 hours of flight time. You’ve got to pass exams in [01:45:00] radio telephony and bunch of other exams along the way. Um, [01:45:05] that there are certain books you’ve got to read. Um, but all in all, basically [01:45:10] you’re paying for about 50 hours of flight time and tuition and buy a bunch of books and [01:45:15] these exams. And I said, so how much is an hour’s lesson? He told me it was about £100, [01:45:20] and at the time. So I said, okay, so 50 times 100 is 5000. [01:45:25] He goes, yeah, got my chequebook out. I wrote a check for £5,000. [01:45:30] And I said, who do I make it out to? And Vaughn’s looking at me from [01:45:35] the other side of the desk, and he’s like, he literally said to me, who are you? [01:45:40] Nobody does this. And I said, why? I asked you how [01:45:45] much it cost to fly. You told me it’s going to take 50 hours. [01:45:50] There’s 50 hours worth of money. I want you to teach me to fly. And for the next [01:45:55] year, because of the weather in the UK is so crappy. I would go to Leavesden every [01:46:00] weekend, Saturday and Sunday after doing five days a week at work. And [01:46:05] me and Vaughn would hang out and go flying. And he taught me to fly. And, [01:46:10] uh.

Payman Langroudi: And how how how how far did you take flying? Did [01:46:15] you. Is it something you do all the time?

Raj Ahlowia: You know, when I was out teaching for Larry once in Florida, [01:46:20] the following week, I’d booked to go learn how to do loop de loop for [01:46:25] stunt flying, because I was just on a journey of discovery, not only with the dentistry [01:46:30] but also with the flying. I was doing instrument meteorological conditions and I had an American license [01:46:35] as well. And I was, yeah, just enjoying flying all [01:46:40] over the place. So I’d spend a week teaching at Pankey and then go hire a plane and fly to the Bahamas.

Payman Langroudi: Nice. [01:46:45]

Raj Ahlowia: You know, or go join, um, the Miami Municipal [01:46:50] Dade County Flying Club, rent their planes and go down to the Everglades [01:46:55] or down to Key West and hang out with all the boozers, uh, you know, [01:47:00] uh, waiting for their next cocktail.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind when I say what are the most memorable [01:47:05] parts of this journey? Like, what’s the most memorable lecture you went to? What’s what [01:47:10] comes to mind when I say that?

Raj Ahlowia: Most memorable lecture. Um. [01:47:15] Yeah. [01:47:20] That very first day at Pankey, one of the first people [01:47:25] to speak at Pankey. To all the all students after they’ve done the same thing as Frank, [01:47:30] spoken to all of us and asked us to go around what we were, what we’re about. And when it came to me [01:47:35] in my turn, I said, oh yeah, I’m working the UK. I’m on this TV show called Extreme Makeover, [01:47:40] and that was already blown away. Everybody else. And they’re like, who’s this guy? Right? [01:47:45] He’s already on TV. What’s he doing here? And then the [01:47:50] first speaker spoke and, um, it was Steve Ratcliffe. He [01:47:55] was one of the four panky instructors, and he ended up going and teaching for Frank as [01:48:00] well. Um, and Steve kind of saw in me [01:48:05] a younger version of himself, I’m absolutely, absolutely convinced of this, getting to know Steve [01:48:10] as a friend over the years. Uh, he saw in me the same passion [01:48:15] for learning, but also, uh, in a way, uh, a search [01:48:20] for validation that he also had gone through. And, um, he [01:48:25] Whilst he was talking to the rest of the class, he put his hand on my shoulder and [01:48:30] he said these words. He said, you know, wherever you are in your journey in [01:48:35] dentistry, that’s brilliant, but you don’t yet know what [01:48:40] you don’t yet know.

Raj Ahlowia: Now that one [01:48:45] sentence stuck with me forever. And Frank [01:48:50] Steve was quoting somebody else that he’d heard that [01:48:55] from. Okay. And that person had heard it from somebody else and somebody else. Now, [01:49:00] over the years, teaching in the UK, I’ve always said that phrase, you don’t yet know or you don’t yet know, [01:49:05] but I’ve also heard many people repeat it, but they get it ever [01:49:10] so slightly wrong. They say you don’t know what you don’t [01:49:15] know. Now there’s a subtle difference. If I, as [01:49:20] a teacher, say to you Payman. You [01:49:25] don’t know what you don’t know. In a way, I’m belittling [01:49:30] you because I’m telling you, you don’t know something. But if, as a [01:49:35] teacher, I say with love, with a hand on your shoulder, you don’t yet [01:49:40] know what you don’t yet know, I am acknowledging that you are [01:49:45] going to discover this, and you are going to know these things, and you’re going to [01:49:50] learn these things, and I’m going to be there to help you and show you some stuff. I’m [01:49:55] acknowledging your capacity as a student, and my love for you and my passion to teach [01:50:00] you and help you discover this stuff. It’s different, right? So [01:50:05] I correct those people that say, you don’t know what you don’t know. I say, no, no, you [01:50:10] don’t yet know what you don’t yet know.

Payman Langroudi: Anthony Robbins talks about that. What’s [01:50:15] not perfect yet? Yeah. Rather than what’s the problem. Right. And [01:50:20] and Apparently in NLP that’s a big thing. Like why is your brain totally [01:50:25] different?

Raj Ahlowia: I don’t know if it’s a funny thing I learned to back in the day. Do [01:50:30] you know who coined the phrase NLP first NLP? Where does what does NLP [01:50:35] stand for?

Payman Langroudi: Neuro linguistic programming, right.

Raj Ahlowia: Where does neuro neuro linguistic? Who said those [01:50:40] words first? Who wrote them first in a book? It’s a guy called Richard Bandler. [01:50:45] Now, before I graduated as a dentist at [01:50:50] guy’s, they used to have these evening lectures [01:50:55] for the dental society once a month or so. And one, [01:51:00] one time it was, uh, a former guy’s man who [01:51:05] used to do hypnosis on his patients, and he used to teach [01:51:10] midwives and nurses how to do hypnosis to help, [01:51:15] um, expecting mothers. And he was giving a talk about [01:51:20] this passion. Weirdly, there was also a dentist called Mike Portelli, [01:51:25] who was a famous fashion photographer, and I went to his evening thing because I found that fascinating, too, because it was my [01:51:30] interest was photography. But anyway, this dentist who came to talk about hypnosis [01:51:35] invited members of the assembled guys crowd [01:51:40] if they wanted to come down on stage and give it a try. And I went down to give it a try, and [01:51:45] he gave us a few things to to try. And at the end of it, [01:51:50] he pulled me aside and he goes, you know, you’ve got, um, a natural ability [01:51:55] for this is something to do with the way you talk. Um, he said, you’re [01:52:00] you’re a natural. That’s why it was working for you. When you’re doing this, you should study this more. He [01:52:05] goes, are you interested? And I said, yeah, I am. So he started [01:52:10] me on a journey before I’d finished dentistry of learning hypnotherapy. And [01:52:15] I went to there was a very popular bookstore in um [01:52:20] um, near Kentish Town that used to sell those books, [01:52:25] and I went and bought loads of them.

Raj Ahlowia: And while I was there, I bumped into somebody also [01:52:30] flicking through the hypnosis section, a lady, and we just got chatting and [01:52:35] she said, oh, you want to learn from this and this and this and these books? [01:52:40] And she said, I’m doing a course and I can send you all my notes. So I said, oh, [01:52:45] great, are you learning from? And she was learning from a well-known British, um, [01:52:50] hypnotist. And I knocked on his door. He wasn’t that [01:52:55] far away. And I said, oh, I was hoping to pick your brains about where [01:53:00] I should learn. And he said, well, you should learn about NLP. Um, [01:53:05] and it’s from a guy called Richard Bandler. Get his books. So [01:53:10] I got all his books, and I joined a mailing list for people interested that this [01:53:15] bookstore did. Extorted, and they sent me a thing that said that Richard Bandler was going to be doing [01:53:20] a two week masterclass on NLP in [01:53:25] London. Did I want to sign up? I signed up straight away. In [01:53:30] my class for those two weeks was a guy called [01:53:35] Paul McKenna, who is now considered one of the, you know, most [01:53:40] famous hypnotists in UK. He bunked off most of the classes. Funnily enough, he didn’t turn up to everything, [01:53:45] but I did. And um, again, you know, it’s like seeking [01:53:50] the best of the best in anything. Um, and so I eventually got to Richard Bandler, [01:53:55] who, who wrote the book on NLP.

Payman Langroudi: Did you did you practice NLP [01:54:00] on your patients?

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah, I did, um, I did extractions under hypnosis. I’ve done root [01:54:05] canal under hypnosis. Not often. Uh, I mean, I remember when I.

Payman Langroudi: Was a nervous [01:54:10] patient or something.

Raj Ahlowia: The very first time I did it, I was still very young. I remember I learned NLP and I had [01:54:15] a masters from Richard. It wasn’t a real master’s but Richard’s master’s in mastery [01:54:20] of NLP. Before I graduated as a dentist and then as a Viti, [01:54:25] I had to do an extraction on. I think it was 13 or 14 year old, [01:54:30] and he was incredibly needle phobic. And I just said to the [01:54:35] mother, well, you know, would you like to try doing it under hypnosis? And [01:54:40] the kid said, yeah, okay. And the mother went, okay. And so I [01:54:45] induced the kid and without any anaesthesia, extracted [01:54:50] his teeth. Now the mother was sort [01:54:55] of standing there gawping, and my nurse was like this. She’d never seen anything [01:55:00] like it. Kid was all matter of fact. And he just woke up straight away. As soon as the tooth [01:55:05] was out, I said, right, that’s done. And he woke up, got up, and they left. Then [01:55:10] I did a root canal for another needle phobic. And, you know, it was there [01:55:15] in the background. But what I realised as I studied NLP [01:55:20] was you don’t actually have to do too much. If [01:55:25] you can talk a certain way, read a patient, read [01:55:30] their pacing, read and what’s right for them, you can modulate [01:55:35] how you talk. I’m doing it right now.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of mirroring, right?

Raj Ahlowia: A little bit, [01:55:40] a little bit of mirroring. But then from mirroring to leading you can start by [01:55:45] mirroring, but you got to lead them to where you want them to be. So if they’re very hyper, you [01:55:50] can be a little bit hyper with them to begin with.

Payman Langroudi: And slow.

Raj Ahlowia: Them down, slow them right down. [01:55:55] Now, Larry Brewer, who I mentioned the former stand [01:56:00] up comedian and dentist who could also do that hand trick, he once told me, he said [01:56:05] when I was on stage as a stand up comedian, if [01:56:10] the crowd were a bit noisy and rowdy and weren’t paying attention, the best way to grab their attention [01:56:15] is not to shout at them and not try to overpower their volume. You [01:56:20] start talking quieter and slower, and the people who are paying attention [01:56:25] to you will tell everyone around them to shut up.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. [01:56:30]

Raj Ahlowia: He said. You know, you can manipulate the crowd by [01:56:35] getting the attention of just a few who’ll do the rest of the work for you. So [01:56:40] I’ve always been fascinated about that. The psychology of human beings, their behaviour. [01:56:45] Well, it’s this sort of.

Payman Langroudi: Massive thirst for knowledge. Yeah. And I [01:56:50] don’t know how to characterise it. Like, almost like unorthodox delivery. You sort of unorthodox [01:56:55] thinking.

Raj Ahlowia: I just like learning different things every year. I wanted to learn something new in. My father in [01:57:00] law said, what are you learning this year? You know.

Payman Langroudi: Always, always been that guy.

Raj Ahlowia: You know, when [01:57:05] you when you find the things that it’s like, for example, my son, [01:57:10] as he was growing up, we wanted to give him opportunities. Anything [01:57:15] he showed an interest in, we would do what was necessary to embrace that, [01:57:20] encourage that, enable that, give him opportunities. So piano lessons, [01:57:25] golf lessons, swimming lessons, fencing lessons, you know, art [01:57:30] classes, you name it. Let him indulge. But slowly, [01:57:35] slowly, he discovers which ones he really enjoys and [01:57:40] which ones he wants to let go and drop away. I was always interested in learning [01:57:45] things, but over the time you find the ones that you really, really enjoy [01:57:50] and the other ones, you just let them go. I used to do stage hypnotism. It was a party trick [01:57:55] thing. I remember my brother who’s a very, very well [01:58:00] known endodontist. Um, he teaches the Distance learning MSC [01:58:05] at King’s. Things. Um. I remember when he was a student, his [01:58:10] year group and the medics were going to some ski resort for, [01:58:15] you know, the winter holidays, and I tagged along with them. And [01:58:20] somewhere along the line, he told them that I knew how to do hypnosis. [01:58:25] And they started badgering me. Would I do a show? So I ended up doing a show [01:58:30] in a hotel resort dining room to their [01:58:35] group and everybody else that was there, including the staff from [01:58:40] the hotel. It was just random, random things like that. All right, fine, [01:58:45] I’ll do it. I’ll do a show. I remember giving my brother a hypno, um, a [01:58:50] photographic memory to help him through guys when he was a student, [01:58:55] so helped him. Um, yeah. Developed strategies [01:59:00] for learning, including a photographic memory, using a lot of my memory techniques that I was [01:59:05] trying for myself anyway. But using hypnosis to program his brain.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [01:59:10] get to the darker part of the of the pod.

Raj Ahlowia: Oh, okay. All right. [01:59:15] Okay.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the darkest day?

Raj Ahlowia: Is there a dark, dark side?

Payman Langroudi: What’s the darkest day in this [01:59:20] journey?

Raj Ahlowia: Darkest day in dentistry or life? Uh, when [01:59:25] whichever one. A patient that had been referred to the practice [01:59:30] decided to sue me and [01:59:35] made a complaint. The only person ever in [01:59:40] my whole career that was pretty dark. It’s the only time I’ve really had [01:59:45] to.

Payman Langroudi: What was the emotion going through you that that you were trying your best and someone thinks [01:59:50] otherwise? Or what was the what was the abiding emotion?

Raj Ahlowia: Um, [01:59:55] a [02:00:00] little bit shocked. Because it come out of [02:00:05] nowhere. But the red flag signs had been there, and it [02:00:10] was another learning experience of the types of patient that are out there, and a learning experience [02:00:15] of how to handle and communicate with them. It [02:00:20] wasn’t a communication error. I don’t think on my part, [02:00:25] it was not recognising the mental [02:00:30] state of this individual early enough. Luckily, [02:00:35] though, because I’ve got a passion for photography, I’d [02:00:40] photographed everything, including all of my [02:00:45] full mouth treatment, planning and waxing up stages, including [02:00:50] articulated trial equilibration of function and every step [02:00:55] of that, and had all the models, including an undamaged. [02:01:00] Damaged reference articulated model set as well to [02:01:05] compare with.

Payman Langroudi: Do you do that on every case.

Raj Ahlowia: On these kinds of cases, the big occlusion cases. [02:01:10]

Payman Langroudi: You record all of the.

Raj Ahlowia: I record it. Yeah. I’ve got a really good friend up [02:01:15] in Manchester, Andrew Shelley, who I showed my process of photography to for [02:01:20] recording everything. And he he loves it. He does it as well. Now on his trial of [02:01:25] collaborations like, um, you know, soaking the, um, soaking [02:01:30] the models in, uh, a yellow dye so that wherever [02:01:35] you touch with the handpiece, you can see where you’ve made [02:01:40] changes and photograph it and then check it on the articulator. So you have a [02:01:45] sequence, a working sequence that you’re going to work to, and you show that to the [02:01:50] patient. And it’s all it was all recorded and documented in the notes that the patient had seen [02:01:55] the trial equilibration and then agreed to it. And I had I explained to her that [02:02:00] if we basically she had come to me because she had had a [02:02:05] full mouth rehabilitation, but the occlusion was off and it was incredibly [02:02:10] uncomfortable. So I had helped her with a splint first to show [02:02:15] that given the right occlusal setup, you [02:02:20] can have a comfortable jaw again and jaw joints. And that’s without changing any [02:02:25] of the teeth, just changing, altering one surface with a piece of plastic that sits over [02:02:30] the top. So it was the balance of the jaw that was off. So I said she said, [02:02:35] well, can my teeth have that? I said, yes, if we change the balance of the teeth, [02:02:40] it’s possible, but I’m going to have to trial it to see what teeth I’m going to have [02:02:45] to adjust.

Raj Ahlowia: And I’ll show you how much adjustment I’m going to have to do. And [02:02:50] so she looked at the trial equilibration. I did it in front of her and photographed [02:02:55] it, and it took about 25 minutes. And she goes, how long will it take to do the same thing [02:03:00] in my mouth? I said exactly the same amount of time, because you’ve just seen the changes I’m going to [02:03:05] have to make. And I said, but you’ve got all these metal [02:03:10] framed ceramic bridgework, and on some of those teeth you’ve [02:03:15] already worn through to the metal on those bridges. And [02:03:20] if it’s a choice between adjusting that bridge or your good real natural tooth [02:03:25] above to get the balance right, which would you prefer me to drill the [02:03:30] already worn out bridge, worn through bridge or your natural tooth? And [02:03:35] she correctly said, drill the bridge. And I said, yes, that’s right, because it’s the bridge that’s wrong. So [02:03:40] if I adjust it more, we can get the balance right and not have to touch your good natural [02:03:45] tooth. I said that’s the right decision, which I showed her on the trial equilibration. So she [02:03:50] helped in the in the.

Payman Langroudi: Diagnosis sort of thing. Yeah. [02:03:55]

Raj Ahlowia: And so I then did the adjustments on her teeth and photographed it [02:04:00] and checked the bite and everything and all good. And she had [02:04:05] been referred down from Newcastle. Anyway, she [02:04:10] goes back home and I said, we’ve got a review booked in about a week. So if [02:04:15] there’s any minor tweaks and adjustments, just like when we did your splint, never get it perfect first time. [02:04:20] So if there’s tweaks and adjustments we’ll tweak and adjust it. And this will tell us [02:04:25] everything we need to know. And she said, if I don’t like the way the bridge looks after you’ve done these adjustments [02:04:30] because more metal is going to show, can I change it? I said, yes, of course you can. And [02:04:35] at least then we’ll know exactly what dimensions to make it. So this bridge, [02:04:40] you realise, is going to need to be changed. Yeah. All documented. Then [02:04:45] she goes away and she starts forgetting the [02:04:50] discussions we’ve just had. And she starts looking at this bridge [02:04:55] and obsessing over how ugly it looks. She goes to another dentist who says [02:05:00] something stupid like, oh, how could someone do such an awful bridge [02:05:05] for you? Like I made it that way and adjusted it that way. I didn’t make the bridge and adjust it that [02:05:10] way. And so she gets perfect.

Payman Langroudi: Storm starts to brew her head. [02:05:15]

Raj Ahlowia: And it’s my.

Payman Langroudi: Fault.

Raj Ahlowia: And this other dentist’s fee for the bridge I need to pay and [02:05:20] decides to sue me. Now, luckily.

Payman Langroudi: My documented.

Raj Ahlowia: Everything. [02:05:25] My wife took this gigantic box of [02:05:30] models and said she works. My wife works in London, so she dropped it all off to them along [02:05:35] with all the notes. And I sent them an articulator too, because I wasn’t sure they’d have the article. [02:05:40] They put the model on. I said, there you go, there’s everything. They looked at it, did [02:05:45] their first report back to her solicitors, and her solicitors basically turned [02:05:50] around and said, this is an unwinnable case. We recommend [02:05:55] you drop the case. And and so they weren’t prepared to move [02:06:00] forward with it. And I got a letter about 4 or 5 months later saying, you [02:06:05] know, the other party’s solicitors have advised her there is no case [02:06:10] to answer. But that was, you know, a dark shadow hanging over me. [02:06:15] Um, I you know, it seems to happen to people a lot [02:06:20] these days. Um, but I’m extremely careful in my [02:06:25] communications now with patients. I want them to really understand [02:06:30] what they’re committing to. And if I think someone’s a crazy, I [02:06:35] do turn them down. And I’ve had a few. I can tell you stories about some proper crazies, [02:06:40] um, that I’ve turned down one of them. A really interesting one, actually. It was a lawyer who [02:06:45] wanted me to just. He. Had smashed [02:06:50] his mouth apart with his power function, absolutely destroyed it. And he just [02:06:55] wanted me to do six veneers at the front.

Raj Ahlowia: He’d seen me on the telly at [02:07:00] the time. I had a brilliant study group of former students [02:07:05] or people from my study group, and we used to meet at Nstc and [02:07:10] Stevenage in their beautiful facilities. Um, once every [02:07:15] 3 or 4 months, and I’d put on a day or two and come up with a topic. [02:07:20] And so I thought, this lawyer who [02:07:25] wants me to do these six veneers, I’ve explained to him that, you know, your problem [02:07:30] is much bigger than just these front teeth. It’s the you’ve you’ve destroyed [02:07:35] all your back teeth. So you’ve got no what we call posterior support to take the brunt of all [02:07:40] your chewing. So you’re now mashing up your front teeth because you’ve got nothing at the back to chew with. What [02:07:45] we really need to do is rehabilitate you at the back. First get that stabilised [02:07:50] and taking the weight, and then we can do whatever you want to do cosmetically at the front, [02:07:55] but without doing the back first. All that will happen is whatever damage you’ve [02:08:00] done to the big dentists in the sky’s teeth and Mother Nature’s materials you’re [02:08:05] going to do to mine. And I’m nowhere near as good as that big dentist in the sky. And the materials I’ve [02:08:10] got aren’t as good as Mother Nature’s. And he just wasn’t getting it.

Raj Ahlowia: He goes, [02:08:15] yeah, no, I just want you to do these. And I said, all right, look, I’ll tell you what [02:08:20] I’m going to do. I’ve got a study group this weekend of 16 students. [02:08:25] Why don’t you, um, come along, we’ll [02:08:30] take pictures of your case models and everything, and [02:08:35] I will get them in groups to work out your treatment, and [02:08:40] we’ll see what they say. And he said, you’re right. And I said, but [02:08:45] do me a favour. Don’t tell them you’re my patient. I’ll just introduce you and pretend you’re my technician or something, [02:08:50] and you’re just visiting for the day. He said, all right. Good. So he [02:08:55] comes along to the study group. Students are there. We have our usual preamble chit chat, [02:09:00] and I say, right, we’re going to do this exercise and I’m going to give you in groups [02:09:05] the case. I put all the photographs up. I’ve got the x rays, everything. We can flip [02:09:10] backs and forwards through the photographs, whatever you guys want. I’ve got a bunch of them printed out. Here [02:09:15] are the models on articulators for you to look at. Don’t damage them. I want you to work out a [02:09:20] treatment plan. I will answer for you as the patient. And [02:09:25] this is my goal. I want a nice cosmetic end outcome with the front. You [02:09:30] tell me what it’s going to take and give me a budget for how much it’s going to cost. [02:09:35]

Raj Ahlowia: Now, the weird thing is, full gigantic screen [02:09:40] at NSK. Massive, you know, must be 200 inch projector [02:09:45] screen. I put a picture up of this guy. He’s sitting [02:09:50] there. They don’t recognise it’s the same guy. Because the power of [02:09:55] hypnosis. I’ve said he’s a technician. He’s my technician. He’s got nothing to do with this. They don’t put two and two [02:10:00] together. The same guy. And they go off and they’re focussed on the task that I’ve given them. And [02:10:05] they spend half an hour, 40 minutes poring through it, asking me to [02:10:10] show x rays, asking me to answer questions as the patient. He’s sitting there listening. And [02:10:15] they come up with treatment plans, and they correctly talk about occlusion [02:10:20] and function and restoring the posterior before doing the anterior. And they [02:10:25] all get it. And they come up with a budget, which is very similar to what I quoted the guy. And [02:10:30] then I introduce him and they go, oh, that’s so funny. And he stays [02:10:35] for lunch and. And then I said, you know, you don’t have to stay for the rest of the day. I said, so what [02:10:40] do you think? He goes, guys? Yeah, yeah, it’s all interesting. Interesting guys. Uh, but [02:10:45] no, I just want to do the front. And I said, look.

Payman Langroudi: That was your red flag right there. Red [02:10:50] flag.

Raj Ahlowia: I said, look, you’re a lawyer, right? He goes, yeah. He goes, if if, um, [02:10:55] one of your clients wants to do something different to your advice, [02:11:00] are you obliged to, you know, do those things that they want you to do, even [02:11:05] if it goes against your better advice and they’re going to do something completely wrong. He goes, no, no, no, no, I [02:11:10] won’t I won’t take them on. I’ll tell them straight. It’s not for me. I said, well, [02:11:15] thank you for your time. Thank you for giving me the opportunity. Thank you for offering me the work. [02:11:20] But I can’t accept, um, if all you want to do is that [02:11:25] there are lots of other dentists that will give you that you walked away. That [02:11:30] was it. So, you know, having the [02:11:35] wits to turn down the red flag Patient is [02:11:40] a skill that I think dentists need to learn early. It’ll save them a [02:11:45] lot of heartache if you can.

Payman Langroudi: Difficult, though. It comes with experience.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah. But but you know, most dentists when [02:11:50] they’re young aren’t doing big, big, big, big, big cases yet because they haven’t learned how to do them yet. But [02:11:55] once they do start to do them, hopefully by that point they will [02:12:00] already have learned to filter the red flag patients. [02:12:05] But also they need to not be worried about the money that they’re going to turn down. And I think [02:12:10] that is a big tripping point that will trip people up because they look at [02:12:15] the money that they’re going to turn down and they’re thinking, oh, you know, I’ve got another mortgage [02:12:20] to payment to make. This is a case that’s landed on my lap, you know, [02:12:25] should I turn it down or should I just go ahead and do it?

Payman Langroudi: The weird paradox with money is that you [02:12:30] end up getting a lot more of it when you stop chasing it [02:12:35] in dentistry. Yeah. You there’s a sixth sense that patients can feel [02:12:40] where you don’t really mind whether they go ahead or not.

Raj Ahlowia: Oh, yeah. Yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And hence they go ahead. Yeah [02:12:45] yeah yeah yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: Um, absolutely. If you look hungry.

Payman Langroudi: Paradoxical is it. Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: If you look [02:12:50] hungry for it, they can sniff that out.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Raj Ahlowia: And they know straight away it’s all about the money more [02:12:55] than them. I’ve never been about the money. I’m the poorest dentist out there. [02:13:00] Honestly, I spend every penny I’ve got on family. And, yeah, [02:13:05] I did spend it all. You know, there was a point back in the day.

Payman Langroudi: Did you go digital [02:13:10] as well? Have you, have you jumped into all of that.

Raj Ahlowia: Digital back in 2006? [02:13:15]

Payman Langroudi: When I but and and all the way [02:13:20] onto you know where it is now.

Raj Ahlowia: I did I mean talking about spending all my [02:13:25] money. There was a point where we were expecting a Kimi in 2004. [02:13:30] I was, you know, rushing backwards and forwards to the States all the time. [02:13:35] I had about £50 in the bank, that’s all. And I crashed my car in the snow. [02:13:40] It wasn’t a bad crash. Just smashed up the front headlight. Um, but [02:13:45] I only had £50 in the bank, and the excess was more than [02:13:50] that on my insurance. I was thinking, oh, blimey, I’ll just pay for this myself. Um. Became incredibly [02:13:55] good friends with the guys that did that repair for me, funnily enough. They’d been friends for life since [02:14:00] then. Um, but, yeah, um, I used to spend all [02:14:05] my money on family and education. Not. Not that much on myself, [02:14:10] on, you know, the luxury items like watches and cars and all the rest of it. That [02:14:15] all came later. But my priorities were my education. [02:14:20] And make sure the family bills were paid and buy a house that we needed [02:14:25] and all the rest of it, but also stay true and loyal to the patients at the practice. Not [02:14:30] be gone too long. So I was doing three weeks at the practice and a week away. Um, but, [02:14:35] um, that was, that was, you know, the living poor and learning. But [02:14:40] then, um, what was the second part about? You said something else. Um, I [02:14:45] can’t remember. Anyway, so I was the poorest dentist in town. Uh, yeah. [02:14:50] Spending it all.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive pleasure talking to you, man.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Thank [02:14:55] you. Um, we always finish on the same questions.

Raj Ahlowia: Oh, that. Well, that.

Payman Langroudi: Fantasy dinner party. [02:15:00]

Raj Ahlowia: Fantasy dinner party.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests.

Raj Ahlowia: Three guests.

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive.

Raj Ahlowia: Um. [02:15:05] All right. Um. Oh, [02:15:10] God. Uh. I [02:15:15] really don’t know. I really don’t know. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I [02:15:20] could ask you the next question, and then that one might marinate. The next question [02:15:25] is a deathbed question. Deathbed. On your deathbed. Three pieces of advice for your loved ones. [02:15:30]

Raj Ahlowia: Uh. Don’t be sad. We all die. [02:15:35] You know we’re all going to die. There is no escaping it. I my my my outlook [02:15:40] on death is it’s going to happen. I’m not going to worry about it. And [02:15:45] I hope that my family know that [02:15:50] if I had some kind of post-death consciousness, [02:15:55] I wouldn’t want them to be sad and worried. [02:16:00] I’d hope that, um, you know, they know I love them [02:16:05] and they love me too. And it’s just natural. And you now [02:16:10] go on and carry on and live your lives and be happy best you can. And [02:16:15] don’t worry about me. That’s enough. Hopefully I gave them enough and did [02:16:20] enough for them and loved them enough. Probably didn’t. Nobody ever. Never. [02:16:25] You know, um, they always regret, you know, they didn’t spend enough time with their family, apparently. [02:16:30] Isn’t that one of the deathbed things that is the most common?

Payman Langroudi: Five regrets of the dying.

Raj Ahlowia: Regrets that [02:16:35] they didn’t spend enough time with their loved ones. Yeah, hopefully, you know, [02:16:40] they’ll understand why I put so much time into the work and everything [02:16:45] to try and provide and give them everything and give my son the best start because, [02:16:50] damn it, the government’s going to try and steal most of it anyway. Um, even [02:16:55] after I’ve gone, they’re going to try and steal a load of it, so hopefully I’ve given him enough resources. [02:17:00] But isn’t that what life does? All life, whether it’s a plant, an amoeba, a [02:17:05] fungus we’re all trying to. Give [02:17:10] as much resource to the next generation so it survives and thrives. That’s [02:17:15] my purpose. That’s all life’s purpose is. Yeah. And [02:17:20] we human beings try to do that sometimes in stupid ways. War for resources [02:17:25] is stupid. There’s enough resources on the planet that we don’t need to do any [02:17:30] of that, but we group ourselves.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a competitive planet, though.

Raj Ahlowia: Weird way. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You [02:17:35] know what I mean? Like two plants compete for life.

Raj Ahlowia: It’s a greedy planet.

Payman Langroudi: But. [02:17:40] But two plants compete for light, you know? Do you call that greed?

Raj Ahlowia: Well, I [02:17:45] think the way the resources of the planet are. Yeah, it [02:17:50] could be more equally divided. But greed ends up putting. [02:17:55]

Payman Langroudi: The.

Raj Ahlowia: Plants in one hand.

Payman Langroudi: Example. How would you know what I mean? It’s [02:18:00] a it’s a competitive planet. Everything’s competitive.

Raj Ahlowia: Yeah, [02:18:05] it’s a strive for life. It’s, uh. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But [02:18:10] but then you hope. You hope. You hope like humanity is there. But maybe it’s slightly above that, [02:18:15] right. That’s that’s what. Yeah, but we’re not.

Raj Ahlowia: But we’re not. There’s a lot of stupidity. [02:18:20]

Payman Langroudi: And you believe in God.

Raj Ahlowia: No. Not really. Really, no.

Payman Langroudi: So when you say seek [02:18:25] and seek, people do this. You think thinking more culturally, culturally Sikh than. Yeah, [02:18:30] yeah. It’s been a massive, massive pleasure, man. If you don’t want to go back to the to the dinner [02:18:35] party, I’m happy to end it on that.

Raj Ahlowia: Thank you so much, sir. It’s been an honour.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so [02:18:40] much for coming in.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [02:18:45] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [02:18:50] Your hosts, Payman Langroudi [02:18:55] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If [02:19:00] you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay [02:19:05] for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because [02:19:10] I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [02:19:15] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value [02:19:20] out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating. [02:19:25]