Payman Langroudi: This podcast comes to you from Enlighten Enlightens, an advanced teeth whitening system [00:00:05] that guarantees results on every single patient. We’ve treated hundreds of thousands of patients [00:00:10] now and have a really clear understanding of what it takes to get every patient to that delighted [00:00:15] state that we want to get to. If you want to understand teeth whitening in much further detail, join [00:00:20] us for online training only takes an hour completely free. Even if you never use [00:00:25] enlighten as a whitening system, you’ll learn loads and loads about whitening, how to talk about it, [00:00:30] how to involve your teams. Join us enlighten online training comm.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:40] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [00:00:45] leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Aliph Moosajee, otherwise known as The [00:01:00] Smiling Dentist. Onto the podcast. Nice smile there. You’ve got. Hello. Hi, [00:01:05] Payman.

Alif Moosajee: Thank you. Thank you so much. It would be very off brand if I didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: I know, I know, [00:01:10] you’ve been smiling dentist from the beginning, right?

Alif Moosajee: Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, well, I wrote a book. [00:01:15] Uh, it’s going back about 12 years ago, I remember it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, there was a book. There was?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. [00:01:20] And I decided to call it The Smiling Dentist. In my infinite wisdom, I’m not sure. Now, [00:01:25] I think back sometimes to, uh, Jamie Oliver. Yeah. I don’t know if you remember when he first [00:01:30] started, he was the naked chef. Yeah. And he very quickly dropped that tagline [00:01:35] because he realised it wasn’t serving him. Unfortunately, mine seems to have perpetuated further [00:01:40] than I would like it to. So even on my very grumpy days and my sad and [00:01:45] reflective and very pissed off days, I still have to be smiling.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, of course I [00:01:50] didn’t even think about that.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, but then again, I know they they do talk about this, whereby [00:01:55] when we’re happy, we smile.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Alif Moosajee: But I think the, uh, the reverse is [00:02:00] true. Sometimes faking a smile can sometimes trick you into feeling happier than [00:02:05] than you really are.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, kind of like that Tony Robbins kind of way of thinking about [00:02:10] things. Yeah, like standing up straight.

Alif Moosajee: Absolutely, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: The effect of physiology [00:02:15] on psychology.

Alif Moosajee: Quite right. And I know, uh, we [00:02:20] touch on dinner guests, but. But Tony Robbins probably would be one of my dinner guests, because, yeah, [00:02:25] there’s there’s there’s a lot. I was very lucky to be introduced to him [00:02:30] when I was, uh, quite young in my career. It was only like a year qualified.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:02:35]

Alif Moosajee: And, uh, and, uh, and as such, uh, it’s I’ve [00:02:40] been able to, to take some of his teachings throughout my career and [00:02:45] throughout my life as well.

Payman Langroudi: Have you been to one of the events?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, a few times, actually. [00:02:50] Oh, really? So he has his flagship one. It’s called Unleash the Power Within where you walk on fire [00:02:55] and stuff. Yeah, I’ve done that three times. Three times three. Yeah, yeah. So twice on my own. [00:03:00] And then once with my wife, Romana. Um, and then I’ve [00:03:05] also been out to Florida. He does another one called Business Mastery. Uh, so I went out there. [00:03:10] It’s a slightly smaller event. Uh, but yeah, it was really good, actually.

Payman Langroudi: So I read the book. [00:03:15] When when was it? I just qualified, and then I [00:03:20] bought some CDs.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um. And it’s so funny, I had I had, uh, one [00:03:25] of the CD changer. Yes, yes. My, my mum said [00:03:30] to me, I think I was like 19 or something, and my mum said, what do you want for your birthday? And I said, [00:03:35] I want a CD changer. Yeah. And, uh, I put this CD changer [00:03:40] in my I think it was like Alfa Romeo at the time. And then something happened to it [00:03:45] where I couldn’t eject the five CDs that were in there.

Alif Moosajee: Right. [00:03:50]

Payman Langroudi: And so basically, I had the same five CDs.

Alif Moosajee: And it was all Tony Robbins.

Payman Langroudi: It was. [00:03:55] No, no, one of them was actually. Wait a minute. This. Oh, yeah. The CDs were after I qualified. [00:04:00] It was, it was, it was. We started enlightened by that time. Okay. We started I read the book [00:04:05] early on, but, um, so then at that time, there was no internet, right? There was no online [00:04:10] training. So at the beginning of enlightened, people would say, you know, some guy in Lincoln [00:04:15] would say, send a rep, and that would be me, right? I would be the one [00:04:20] going to every single sales call.

Alif Moosajee: Oh, wow.

Payman Langroudi: And man, I remember it was such painful days, man. I [00:04:25] remember like, I’m terrible with directions as it goes anyway, but I’d have [00:04:30] to drive to Lincoln, right? Obviously figure out how to get to Lincoln first of all. Then [00:04:35] go to a petrol station, buy an A to Z of Lincoln, right. And [00:04:40] then find the practice in there. And then, you know, there was no satnav. So [00:04:45] it was a different world, wasn’t it?

Alif Moosajee: It really was.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, at that time companies [00:04:50] used to have like regional I mean, they still do regional reps. Yes, those regional reps would know the [00:04:55] area really well. They’d know the practices, but we had nobody. It was just me. It was literally me. [00:05:00] And so I would be the one picking up the phone. I’d be the one setting up the appointment, [00:05:05] turning up and everything else, developing the products and everything. And um, [00:05:10] like I say, the multi-channel got stuck. And one of the 20 [00:05:15] CDs of Tony Robbins was in there, and I must have listened [00:05:20] to this one CD. Um, it must have been a hundred times. Wow. At [00:05:25] least a hundred times. Because, you know, I only had these five CDs to play with. Absolutely. Yeah. And what [00:05:30] it really taught me was the power of repetition. Yeah. Well.

Alif Moosajee: Well, quite.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:05:35] because I know I’ve quoted some of the lessons from that one [00:05:40] CD.

Alif Moosajee: Right. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: To friends and family and people and people at work. And [00:05:45] it was all about overwhelm. Yeah. What do you do if you’re in overwhelm? Yeah. And the five questions [00:05:50] to ask yourself. And I don’t remember any of the other 19 CDs. Yeah, I [00:05:55] remember little inkling. Yeah, but that one. And so on. Our composite [00:06:00] course, we do this repetition thing where, you know, there are new words, aren’t there? [00:06:05] You know, microfill composite. You know, people, first time you tell someone you’ve got microfill, you’ve got nanofiller, [00:06:10] you’ve got, you know, Microhybrid. Yeah. Most dentists, these are new words. Yeah. And [00:06:15] so the repetition of those words and even the idea that we get people to come back [00:06:20] to the course as many times as they like, they sit in the back because repetition [00:06:25] is so important. I really such an interesting thing.

Alif Moosajee: And it’s funny you mention that because I mentioned I’ve been on that [00:06:30] particular Tony Robbins thing three times. Yeah, but I was in slightly different places [00:06:35] in my life each time. And so I heard the message, and I bet that’s the [00:06:40] same if on a dental course as well. I bet the I don’t know if this happens [00:06:45] to you, but sometimes you’ll have a patient in mind that you’re thinking, right, that would [00:06:50] be the perfect one to use this particular new skill I’ve got on. And [00:06:55] if that patient, the next time you go on the course is somebody different, with a slightly different challenge, [00:07:00] you’ll hear a whole other set of tips, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: The questions you have in your head when you haven’t tried [00:07:05] a case yet, compared to the questions you have once you’ve tried a few times.

Alif Moosajee: You’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Tried totally different questions. [00:07:10]

Alif Moosajee: I quite, quite agree, but.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me if you had to put it in a nutshell, what did these Tony [00:07:15] Robbins days do for you? Like, now talk me through basically what [00:07:20] happens and and I mean, I notice people I know other people who’ve gone, gone, gone [00:07:25] on them. People go into it sort of, um, not very focussed and come out of it [00:07:30] with life goals. Yeah, yeah. So go on, give me, give me, give me a little summary. What happens?

Alif Moosajee: One [00:07:35] of the, um, misunderstandings is it’s all rah rah positivity. Yeah, I [00:07:40] think there’s a lot more structured than that. And it’s very clever the way that he teaches. [00:07:45] And he does go into it. And I’m happy to share some of those things as well. But in a nutshell, for me, [00:07:50] what I felt is that a lot of what we learn as human beings is not [00:07:55] actively learned. It’s just by watching people and watching their patterns [00:08:00] and thinking that that pattern is the right pattern, or thinking it’s wrong and rejecting [00:08:05] it. So sometimes you have kids who are quote unquote good kids. They’re good kids because [00:08:10] they do what their parents tell them to do and do what they do as well. And then you sometimes have [00:08:15] rebellious kids who look at their parents, um, I suppose, uh, examples [00:08:20] and reject them outright. But if you only have those two, then [00:08:25] a lot of the time we’re not consciously thinking about what [00:08:30] we’re doing. And I think one of the key things was that I learned that I had [00:08:35] a choice. I learned that there was a framework for understanding also [00:08:40] what is going through other people’s heads and what they’re communicating to me. [00:08:45]

Alif Moosajee: So there is a way there of managing my own state, my own [00:08:50] emotions, and choosing whether I decide to be pissed off by something, or do [00:08:55] I decide to be happy when this kind of thing happens? Um, I think that was one of [00:09:00] the key, key learnings. But the thing that I do enjoy, and, uh, I’ve learned [00:09:05] to love now, is that he makes the audience very excited. And [00:09:10] the reason is, he explains that whenever we learn something new, it’s [00:09:15] like a new neural connection has been made. Now, if we make [00:09:20] that connection, it will be very, very weak and we can strengthen it [00:09:25] through. You’ve already said it. Repetition. Or if you are super excited [00:09:30] and engaged at the time, you can hear that message once and it you know, it really [00:09:35] anchors in. So this business about knowing when the room the energy is dropping [00:09:40] and getting people to stand up and you know, he plays music and everyone’s dancing and all this stuff’s going on, [00:09:45] is to re-engage so that we’re more receptive and take the messages home.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:09:50] have you you’ve done some lecturing in your time? Yeah. Have you found yourself sort of using those tactics? [00:09:55]

Alif Moosajee: Well, the unfortunately the Dental audience is, is a little [00:10:00] bit more conservative, certainly, than the American audience.

Payman Langroudi: Anyone who wants to come here, say hi. [00:10:05] Yeah, exactly.

Alif Moosajee: But I remember in my early days there [00:10:10] was an American lecture called John Kanka. I remember John, yeah. Top guy. Very clever [00:10:15] guy. And he came over and, you know, he started the presentation with this [00:10:20] great music and speakers and everything going. And then I think the room [00:10:25] was not receptive to it. We weren’t ready as British dentists for this. So [00:10:30] but I think that there are those who are doing it. And I certainly find that if [00:10:35] I can engage and excite in a way and and to tell a story [00:10:40] as well, I’ve found that as human beings, often A lot of the lessons we learn [00:10:45] are through stories like Aesop’s Fables and things like this. So if you can control [00:10:50] a narrative and tell a good story, you can often impart a lesson quite nicely. [00:10:55] And sometimes the audience won’t even know that they’ve learnt a lesson.

Payman Langroudi: You know, one [00:11:00] of the questions I normally ask at the end I’m going to ask you right now is what was [00:11:05] the best lecture you’ve ever been to?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And when I think about lecturers [00:11:10] and you can, you can marinate in it while I tell you my story about lecturers. [00:11:15] Um, you know, there’s a, there’s a, you know, in the same way as, as a dentist, [00:11:20] you’ve got your clinical skills and then you’ve got your soft skills, your communication skills. [00:11:25] And and in many ways, the communication skills are just as important as the clinical [00:11:30] skills. Yes. And I think about lecturers, you know, there’s different styles of lecturing, [00:11:35] you know. Um, and you know, famous ones like, uh, for [00:11:40] me, for me, the best lecture I ever went to was Gallop Girl. [00:11:45] Okay. Um, and it was a combination of hero worship [00:11:50] for that, for that Adonis of a man who is an Olympic, [00:11:55] whatever. He was a water polo player or whatever he was. But also the technique [00:12:00] was was something that he kind of discovered himself. That was it, that empty technique, whatever [00:12:05] the, the the the, um, uh, temporising technique, [00:12:10] where he would drill off just the right amount of, of it. So it was a new technique, right. And [00:12:15] then the the presentation, the presentation was awe inspiring. I mean, at [00:12:20] the time, you know, things would move around and beautiful presentation. Now [00:12:25] you’ve got that. And now I remember that as my favourite lecture that I ever went to.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:12:30] I’ve sat in a lot on Chris Orr’s lectures. Yes. And, you [00:12:35] know, Chris is a phenomenon, right, in terms of the way he sells out and, and how, you know, [00:12:40] I’ve given every single young dentist the advice of go on the Chris Haw course. Yes, I’ve sat in [00:12:45] on a lot of his lectures because, you know, we do enlighten over there. And his presentation’s [00:12:50] not beautiful at all. It’s not. It’s not even. It’s not trying to be beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:12:55] But he’s got a way of I think it’s very interesting that you can be there [00:13:00] can be breadth in a presentation or there can be depth in it. [00:13:05] And he’s got a wonderful way of combining breadth and depth together. Yes. Whereas where [00:13:10] you feel like he’s covered the whole subject, but he’s gone deep enough in the different parts of it [00:13:15] and totally different presentation styles. Dipesh I mean, his [00:13:20] presentation is just something else. I mean, it’s the most beautiful thing you’ll ever [00:13:25] see on the screen. Yeah. And then his his kind of technique is very sort of casually [00:13:30] talking about the process of what he does. Yeah. Very rarely [00:13:35] does he mention the patient’s sort of social All situation. He’s very much [00:13:40] in the teeth. Yes. And then sometimes we have Matty. Matty Parsons, he does the [00:13:45] marketing piece.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. And his is much more about the person, the communications. [00:13:50] When a patient says to you, I trust you, you go ahead and decide yourself. That’s the danger [00:13:55] patient. Yeah. You know, when a patient tells you exactly what they want, that’s much easier. They’ve almost made the [00:14:00] treatment plan for you. It’s very interesting. You know, the the ways of teaching. And now we’ve [00:14:05] got all the online part. Yes. You know, you can you can send all the lectures before time. [00:14:10] Yeah. And you know, people could read them and then do all hands on. Um, it’s [00:14:15] an interesting thing. Now, I’m interested in your career insomuch [00:14:20] as I’ve been to your practice. Oakdale. Beautiful. Thank you. Beautiful. I’m sure it’s even [00:14:25] more beautiful now than the way I would characterise it. A bit like a Ralph Lauren [00:14:30] sort of showroom. Yeah. Sort of thing. Yeah. Um, I [00:14:35] want to hear the whole story of Oakdale, But also, you’ve also just been around [00:14:40] on the circuit to see all used to see all the famous educational events and [00:14:45] in all the sort of trade fairs and so on. What is it about you that that [00:14:50] makes you that guy? And and not sort of the guy who just sits in a surgery and you’re involved in [00:14:55] the dental world?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, when did that happen? Was there an inflection?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, there [00:15:00] was, there was, um, I, I started as an undergraduate. [00:15:05] Um. And where.

Payman Langroudi: Did you.

Alif Moosajee: Study? So it was Birmingham. Birmingham. And, [00:15:10] uh, I’ve always been reasonably clever, and I don’t mean that with hubris, honestly. It just I [00:15:15] was good at picking up stuff. Um, but then when it came to doing practical stuff, [00:15:20] I was probably the worst in the year. Um, and I remember having a really, [00:15:25] really tough time of it on clinic. I remember doing the amalgam test, failing it [00:15:30] twice. Um, so. So that was something I, you know, I was really upset about because [00:15:35] I thought, right, all I want to do is to be a good dentist. And for all the knowledge [00:15:40] I have and I’ve absorbed and assimilated and I pass all the tests first time, all of that. But [00:15:45] I wasn’t able to do the bloody job. Um, and [00:15:50] so that, that, that really, you know, killed my confidence. And I spent a long time, you know, [00:15:55] on those clinical years just trying to fly under the radar and not get in trouble. Yeah. And then that was what [00:16:00] the start of my career was like. And I felt like, right, I’m just going to be a very humble exam [00:16:05] scale and polish, you know, do the odd filling here and there, and I’ll just keep myself out of trouble. And [00:16:10] that’s how I’ll see my years out. Um, and then I remember it was, [00:16:15] I think I was probably seven, seven years qualified. I’d spent some time in the NHS and then moved [00:16:20] into private practice, um, as an associate. And then I actually I got [00:16:25] a complaint, uh, and it was about a scale and polish. Yeah. [00:16:30]

Payman Langroudi: Of all things.

Alif Moosajee: Of all things. Um, and what had happened was the patient had developed [00:16:35] some sensitivity afterwards. Um, and then came back. Came [00:16:40] back to practices. I want a refund, I want compensation, um, and [00:16:45] I remember calling up Dental protection. It was Raj Rutton who was actually the advisor [00:16:50] for me. And he says he looked at the notes and he says, no, these are fine, watertight. [00:16:55] You know, you can do what you want so you can either pay the money back to him or you [00:17:00] can tell him to piss off, basically, and you’ll be fine. Um, and I remember [00:17:05] the guy actually saying that if if I don’t have the refund it was in the letter, then basically [00:17:10] I’m going to let the regulator know. So the GDC will be informed. And I was like, I didn’t really like [00:17:15] the thought of blackmail as well. And I thought, I’m going to stand my ground and tell him to do [00:17:20] one. It was a mistake, I think, at the time, because unfortunately [00:17:25] he did go to the GDC. The GDC did create a case. Um, and I [00:17:30] still remember getting the letter, uh, from them which formerly told me about the complaint. [00:17:35]

Alif Moosajee: And if there’s one thing I can do, which I hope would be of of value to the listeners, [00:17:40] is to explain that what happens with the GDC is that [00:17:45] so, you know, in a normal court, you have the judge, you have the defence, and [00:17:50] then you have the prosecution. And what the prosecution have to do is paint the defendant [00:17:55] as the worst person possible, throw as much shit as they can, and some [00:18:00] of it will stick. And then the defence and then the judge makes the judgement. Now [00:18:05] I forgot that what the GDC they have two parts to that [00:18:10] equation. They are the judge as well as the prosecution. So I’m [00:18:15] reading this letter telling me you failed to blah, you failed to blah. And [00:18:20] I’m thinking, oh my God, this is already the the judgement. This is the judge [00:18:25] hat of the GDC saying these things. And, and I remember getting letters [00:18:30] and like my heart would be pounding as I’m reading them and just getting through them. It was a [00:18:35] really, really horrible, horrible time. And I remember it dragged on for for about a year. [00:18:40]

Payman Langroudi: A year, yeah, over a scale and polish.

Alif Moosajee: Scale and polish. What happened was I [00:18:45] was working in a practice. I was an associate in a satellite practice. And what [00:18:50] they had done was they’d had a it was I mean, it wasn’t good marketing stunt in a sense that they [00:18:55] did check-ups that were cheaper than the NHS. But then the in [00:19:00] the treatment, I mean, it was not expensive. It was like not bad, not terribly like out [00:19:05] of line with NHS prices. But what they’d done was they’d decided to say on the marketing that we are [00:19:10] cheaper than the NHS. Now obviously that is misleading [00:19:15] in hindsight. I mean, I wasn’t really involved in the marketing, it wasn’t my job. I rock up and I do the dentistry. [00:19:20] The problem is that because the management were non registrants, [00:19:25] then what would happen is the buck ends up falling with whoever [00:19:30] the buck can fall with. And the GDC are going to go after the person who they [00:19:35] can. Yeah, I learned all of this. It didn’t, you know, Combobulated there’s no point [00:19:40] in the GDC trying to go after a non registrant. They’ve got absolutely no power over that person. [00:19:45] Whereas if you are a registrant, they’ve got all the power over you.

Payman Langroudi: Was it a corporate.

Alif Moosajee: Uh [00:19:50] it wasn’t actually a corporate. It was well I suppose like a mini one because there was a clinical guy, but he [00:19:55] had his own practice somewhere else. And then it was is his uncle that was managing [00:20:00] this practice. And I think between them, they were able to submit enough evidence to say that it [00:20:05] was a registrant who was, you know, part and parcel of it. But I [00:20:10] realised when everybody went into survival mode to try and shift blame elsewhere, [00:20:15] in the end, the blame fell on me for this misleading thing. [00:20:20] So what had turned from a scale and polish? Because we know what GDC like. They are [00:20:25] ferocious investigators. So what I mean by that, I that, I think, is in medicine with the GMC, [00:20:30] if the patient makes a complaint about broken ankle not treated [00:20:35] properly, the whole of the investigation is around that treatment and.

Payman Langroudi: That [00:20:40] is limited.

Alif Moosajee: It’s limited. Whereas what the GDC do is that they will [00:20:45] look at the initial thing and then they will look through everything else, [00:20:50] uh, and anything that is they deem as wrongdoing, then they will go for. [00:20:55] And that’s sometimes challenging.

Payman Langroudi: So what happened?

Alif Moosajee: Uh, in the end? Uh, yeah. [00:21:00] I mean, it got dark because this business about being misleading, then [00:21:05] they talk about there’s there’s one tier which is misleading. Then there’s another deliberately misleading. [00:21:10] And then the last one is dishonest. Now, if you’re found dishonest, then [00:21:15] your professional, uh, your I suppose your ability to, uh, [00:21:20] be professional is brought into disrepute, and you can be [00:21:25] struck off. So this was.

Payman Langroudi: It was.

Alif Moosajee: Like, shit, this has got out of hand here. [00:21:30] But once the wheels are in motion, it’s a problem. In the end, in the end, [00:21:35] in the end. Thank God it all went away. I think they looked at some of what? [00:21:40] What was presented to them. They’d actually assessed it incorrectly. [00:21:45] Like they’d said. There was no medical history when there was a medical history. So, you know, they painted me in a very [00:21:50] poor light because they just hadn’t bothered to look at the pack properly. Um, so in the end it [00:21:55] went away. And then what I reflected from it was that [00:22:00] if I can fly or try to fly under the radar as [00:22:05] much as that, and then get shafted and go all [00:22:10] the way to the GDC, then what am I doing? I’m wasting my life. [00:22:15] I’m wasting my career. Yeah, I’m going to put myself out there. Let’s do some stuff. [00:22:20]

Payman Langroudi: So that literally sort of propelled you.

Alif Moosajee: Absolutely. So within within about a year I bought [00:22:25] a practice. I didn’t buy that little satellite practice. I thought, if I’m going to buy a practice, I’ll buy a big practice. [00:22:30] So I found this practice. Um, for whatever reason, nobody else wanted it because [00:22:35] I think they were all really scared at that time. Oakdale. Yeah. I think everybody wanted NHS. They [00:22:40] were all vested in this guaranteed paycheque. They were all scared that if they buy a practice. [00:22:45]

Payman Langroudi: Was it existing as a private.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. Yeah, it was a it was a referral practice actually. [00:22:50]

Payman Langroudi: Back then was quite rare.

Alif Moosajee: It was rare.

Payman Langroudi: How many years ago are we talking.

Alif Moosajee: Uh, we talked about 12 years ago now. So 2014, [00:22:55] I bought it.

Payman Langroudi: But yeah. Yeah, still much rarer than today.

Alif Moosajee: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:23:00]

Alif Moosajee: Um, and so I think a lot of people. Yeah, we’re just worried that the principal who was there, he was [00:23:05] quite a personality as well. I think they’re all scared that once he retired or left, then, then they’d lose all the goodwill. [00:23:10] I thought, no, that’s my mission, to give them something to stay for. Um, [00:23:15] so I bought this practice. I decided to learn to do implants. [00:23:20] Uh, got really heavily into digital, um, when I had, uh, started a study club [00:23:25] at the practice.

Payman Langroudi: What was it when you bought it? How many chairs? How many patients.

Alif Moosajee: Was, uh, five. [00:23:30] Yeah, five. Surgery practice. Physically, uh, but it was probably about [00:23:35] two and a half surgeries in the sense that everybody was part time. Dentists were coming in and doing two days [00:23:40] a week or three days a week. So it was very bitty. And Bobby, there was sort [00:23:45] of general dentistry happening.

Payman Langroudi: Are you up for talking about numbers? Yeah. Like what did you pay for it? [00:23:50]

Alif Moosajee: I paid um. Six. [00:23:55] No, no, no, it was seven 5750. I [00:24:00] think it was maybe a bit more. 780, actually. So.

Payman Langroudi: And how did you raise it? Did you how much [00:24:05] did you put in yourself and how much did you borrow? And, uh, which I’m sure is different these days to those days. [00:24:10] But but what was it like, do you remember yourself having to save up heavily to, to [00:24:15] to in order to do this?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. I had to save.

Payman Langroudi: And was it was it in your head you were always going to buy a practice. [00:24:20] No it wasn’t.

Alif Moosajee: No. It wasn’t. Um, before [00:24:25] that GDC thing, I had resigned. I’m not going to do implants, you know, [00:24:30] like you have these conversations in your mind. So I don’t think implants are for me. Yeah, I like [00:24:35] doing ortho. Yeah. So I’ll go for a bit of ortho. So six months smiles and stuff like [00:24:40] that. Um, and I’m not going to own a practice, so I don’t want the hassle of it. Yeah, I’ll be happy as an associate, [00:24:45] so I’d kind of cut those things off. And it was whether whether it’s, you [00:24:50] know, the, the ultimate rebound, uh, from this horrible relationship, you know, [00:24:55] like, sometimes you talk to people.

Payman Langroudi: Script themselves though, isn’t it? Because I did exactly [00:25:00] the same thing with regards to implants. And I remember when I qualified, it was just like it [00:25:05] was just the start of implants. And it would have been a smart move to go into implants, [00:25:10] but I thought, not for me. Yes. It’s such a weird thing. Yeah. No, I by the way, I don’t think I would have been [00:25:15] the best implantologist. But but you know, one person does that and the other person [00:25:20] says, oh, I like the idea of being a surgeon or something. Yeah, it’s just the idea of being a surgeon, [00:25:25] because the actual, you know, learning of it is a long step by step process. [00:25:30] Mentors all the things you have to do to learn implants. Right. And and neither person [00:25:35] really knows what they’re getting into. Yes, but we script ourselves. [00:25:40] Yeah. Like you’d scripted yourself as a as an associate forever. Yeah. And then it took [00:25:45] this event for you to say, now I’m going to own a practice. Yeah. And thank goodness you did own a practice, [00:25:50] right? Because you feels like you thrived in in Oakdale. [00:25:55]

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. It’s it’s nice. It’s become I realise it’s tough, but [00:26:00] it’s a blessing and and it’s what it allows you to become as a [00:26:05] person, to overcome all of those challenges. You grow. Yeah, yeah. And now [00:26:10] if people ask me questions or they say, how do I do this? I know, I know the answer [00:26:15] because I’ve been there. I’ve had to figure it out. So So I realised that I [00:26:20] think I was probably after an easy life once upon a time. And now [00:26:25] I realise that the secret is not to hope that your problems [00:26:30] are small, but to hope that you will always be bigger than whatever problem comes to you. [00:26:35] Because that’s that’s the measure of you as a person, I guess.

Payman Langroudi: So where did you grow up, Lester? [00:26:40]

Alif Moosajee: Uh, no, I grew up in Slough. Oh, yeah? So, uh, parents are still there. In [00:26:45] fact, they’re in the process of moving at the moment.

Payman Langroudi: So what’s your connection to? Is Romana from.

Alif Moosajee: Romana is from Leicester. [00:26:50] Um, but I was already in the Midlands because I studied in Birmingham. I stayed, uh, my [00:26:55] first job was in Wolverhampton, so I already knew I liked the Midlands. Um, and then I [00:27:00] went to visit Leicester a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s rewind. Why dentistry?

Alif Moosajee: Uh, yeah, a work experience. [00:27:05] I actually, I remember it well, it was year ten, um, and we had two [00:27:10] weeks of work experience. And at that point, as any good Indian boy should be, I was either [00:27:15] going to be a doctor or a lawyer. And I remember they got me one week in a magistrates [00:27:20] court court just to see what law was all about. And then they couldn’t find me [00:27:25] a doctor, so. Oh, he probably won’t notice. Stick him in a dental practice instead. [00:27:30] Um, but I absolutely loved it.

Payman Langroudi: Who is your parent? Your school. School? School?

Alif Moosajee: School. [00:27:35]

Payman Langroudi: And you loved watching a dentist?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. And I know it’s weird, but what I really [00:27:40] liked was the fact that people came in broken or sick, and the dentist did [00:27:45] some, like, magic, and everything was all right again, and I got hooked on [00:27:50] that. I thought it was brilliant. Um, and then, yeah, I sort of geared everything [00:27:55] up to. What were.

Payman Langroudi: You.

Alif Moosajee: Liking.

Payman Langroudi: In dental school? I mean, um, outside of the academic. [00:28:00]

Alif Moosajee: Outside the academic. I fell into, quote unquote, the wrong crowd. [00:28:05] Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So the party crowd.

Alif Moosajee: The party crowd? Yeah. But no, my friends [00:28:10] are amazing. And we’re still, like, get together.

Payman Langroudi: With dentists or dentists.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, most of them are dentists. [00:28:15] Yeah. And we were. We were. I suppose we were quite well known, uh, throughout the dental school and [00:28:20] the uni, as well as being. Yeah. As being those guys. Um, but yeah. [00:28:25]

Payman Langroudi: What was it like first time away from home, sort of that thing?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. It was, I [00:28:30] wouldn’t say that I was, I was put on a very aggressive leash by my parents. [00:28:35] I think it was probably self perpetuated.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Alif Moosajee: There was something [00:28:40] I picked up which, which was, which really interested me. It was how, you know, often [00:28:45] as children, in order to ensure that we have attention [00:28:50] from our parents, we will often carve an identity out that’s [00:28:55] different from our siblings. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s a survival instinct. Now, my brother happened to [00:29:00] be the rebellious child, so that one was already taken.

Payman Langroudi: You’re the oldest.

Alif Moosajee: No, I’m I’m I’m [00:29:05] the younger.

Payman Langroudi: Of the two of you.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, just two of us. Um. And so I was always the. [00:29:10] I was really a good kid, honestly. I was just, like, proper. Um, but. And I’d come [00:29:15] home, I’d do my homework and all the rest. So I feel like some of this, um, being [00:29:20] a good boy, it wasn’t because my parents made me. It was just that that was who I was. And that’s the identity that I’d [00:29:25] created.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you’ve only got one one child, but, um, apparently billionaires [00:29:30] are often fourth kids.

Alif Moosajee: Correct.

Payman Langroudi: For that very reason. For that reason, the [00:29:35] other roles are taken.

Alif Moosajee: And they have to think.

Payman Langroudi: And think outside the box. And then and but I see it happening [00:29:40] with, with my kids, you know, you script one who does well at an exam, you go, well, he’s the clever kid, [00:29:45] right. And then you positively feedback that. And then the other one might say something funny and you [00:29:50] go, oh well, she’s the funny one. Yeah, yeah. And you and you say it to them and, and that’s the [00:29:55] person they end up becoming for that reason. You know, it’s a funny thing. It’s a weird thing. [00:30:00]

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. And I think you’re right. I think, uh, they call it the. Is it the Pygmalion effect whereby [00:30:05] if you are told, oh, you’re the clever one in the class, then you have to [00:30:10] live up to that. And, yeah, you’re pigeonholed. That’s why I tried to be really careful about these [00:30:15] labels. I don’t mind if my daughter Annie, does something stupid, but I would never call her [00:30:20] a stupid person because otherwise she will live up to being while we’re on.

Payman Langroudi: While we’re on [00:30:25] fatherhood. Number one, would you recommend for her to become a dentist? [00:30:30]

Alif Moosajee: Um, okay. I mean, we’ve had we’ve had this chat. She doesn’t want to be, by the way, but [00:30:35] I would love her to be. And I think it’s because I have had, you know, [00:30:40] a very a really good career, actually. I mean, the start was weird, but, [00:30:45] um, this part of it is, is really fun. It’s varied. I get to do [00:30:50] lots of different things, like, you know, I’m in control of what I want to do. So I feel like I could [00:30:55] give her the recipe for how to be, you know, very happy as a dentist. Um, [00:31:00] and also from a super selfish reason I’d, I’d love to have a buddy to go [00:31:05] on courses with and, you know, do all of those things.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, plenty of people sit here in front of me and say, I [00:31:10] don’t want my kids to go into dentistry. Why do you think that is?

Alif Moosajee: It is hard. It’s tough, [00:31:15] but I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Everything worthwhile is.

Alif Moosajee: Tough. Everything worthwhile is tough. And I think [00:31:20] that’s that’s where I would go with that. Because I feel like the greatest gift it’s given me is to [00:31:25] make me the person I am. As we just mentioned, as a result of the spots it’s put me in. [00:31:30] Um, and I feel like I’d be denying her, uh, that opportunity [00:31:35] if I told her not to do it for that reason. However, her her skills are different [00:31:40] to mine. She’s a performer, dancer, singer. A very good singer. And so, um. [00:31:45] Yeah, she’s already involved in stuff in our theatre in Leicester. The curve. [00:31:50] So, uh, so she wants to pursue that.

Payman Langroudi: So you bought the practice? It [00:31:55] was a private practice. Private practices tend to have that issue with not enough patients. [00:32:00] Generally, that tends to be the big issue with private practices. So this was a well established. [00:32:05] You said the guy was a bit of a character.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So were there plenty of patients?

Alif Moosajee: So there were patients, [00:32:10] but we still had to grow. There was there was no doubt that we would have [00:32:15] to. And the reason I knew that was a key point was that a [00:32:20] lot of the revenue did come from the referrals that he generated. [00:32:25] Um, and.

Payman Langroudi: Did he stay on or anything?

Alif Moosajee: And he did. He did. I think he was unhappy [00:32:30] because he did not like being the owner of a practice. He was also [00:32:35] doing general dentistry as well as some implant stuff. So what I did was I had a nice [00:32:40] chat with him and I said, look, how can I make your life better? So obviously the running [00:32:45] of the practice, we took off and that was going to happen anyway. But I also removed the general dentistry, [00:32:50] reduced his hours a bit. Not in a malicious way, but just it is what it is. And he was happy to do that. [00:32:55] And he ended up just doing implants. So the guy’s coming in and he’s living his best life. [00:33:00] So instead of staying on for the two years, I think he agreed. He ended up staying on [00:33:05] for seven.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Alif Moosajee: And he ended up being a real asset because he’s [00:33:10] generating his own goodwill. I’m not having to market to bring new patients to him, because it’s [00:33:15] the relationships that he’s formed by doing such a good job for the dentists that refer. [00:33:20] And, you know, to his credit, he didn’t hold back. He taught me [00:33:25] everything he knew. So I was lucky enough to go on the formal implant [00:33:30] courses and learn different opinions from different people. Then I come in and often [00:33:35] of a morning, I’d go into his surgery. I’d sit with him, talk to him about what I’d just learned, [00:33:40] and he’d tell me how much bullshit it was. Well, in the nicest [00:33:45] possible way. But no, he would. He would agree with what he thought was right. He would also add to what [00:33:50] he could.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Alif Moosajee: And at the time when I was learning implants, it was very safe, you know, [00:33:55] take the tooth out, let it heal forever. Put the implant. But he was already well into immediacy. [00:34:00] He was he was very good at it. Um, and I realised for [00:34:05] a number of different reasons that immediate implants is probably the way I feel anyway, [00:34:10] that we look after patients best. So I was then again very clear about [00:34:15] how I wanted to practice my implant dentistry. Um, and [00:34:20] it’s it’s really I think it set me up in a good way to look after patients.

Payman Langroudi: So nice [00:34:25] to have a mentor there. Like, literally in the same building.

Alif Moosajee: In the same building.

Payman Langroudi: And I bet it was probably [00:34:30] nice that you could go to him. Regarding the running of the practice, like systems were in place [00:34:35] and all of that. Yeah, but what about.

Alif Moosajee: The I’ll be honest with you. No, no, because I think that, as I mentioned, [00:34:40] I think the running of the practice was something he didn’t enjoy doing. Yeah, he didn’t do very well. [00:34:45] And I don’t mean that in a nasty way. I think by his own admission, he said, that’s the one [00:34:50] bit I want to get rid of. So, so it really was down to room and I to really [00:34:55] peel back everything and try to understand what [00:35:00] is the point of what we’re doing in this bit, and what’s the point of this and write [00:35:05] it all for ourselves.

Payman Langroudi: So was there any issues with like the the team [00:35:10] sort of in terms of the the old boss is still there and he didn’t do it [00:35:15] like that and yeah, sort of.

Alif Moosajee: Maybe a little, little bit. I mean he obviously had his team [00:35:20] who he liked. And when I came in. So I again I’m this like humble [00:35:25] young I don’t like uh what do they call it. Um. You [00:35:30] know, when you don’t believe that you belong in a place, [00:35:35] uh.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like, um.

Alif Moosajee: I’ll, it’ll come to me, but. [00:35:40] Yeah, but. Yeah, I didn’t think I was worthy of being the principal of this place, [00:35:45] so I’m all like, right, I better learn, I better grow into this role and all the rest of it. And then we [00:35:50] start looking at, these girls are lazy. These girls are not cleaning. These girls are more [00:35:55] interested in having their coffee whenever they want and telling me how busy they are. And I don’t [00:36:00] mean to. I mean, maybe I’m being cruel, but they believed they were busy, but [00:36:05] they were just busy doing the wrong things. So it became apparent that we had to [00:36:10] make some changes. So I still remember giving a meeting at the start and believing it. [00:36:15] You know, we’re here now. We’re taking over. I don’t want to make any changes. I’m just happy with the way [00:36:20] things are. We’re going to carry on. And then I thought, oh my God, what have I said? You know, what have I done? This [00:36:25] is terrible. Um, so I remember having another meeting telling them, no, [00:36:30] we want to be the best practice. At that point, I was still small. We’re going to be the best practice [00:36:35] in Leicester. All right. Okay. But let’s go for that, at least as [00:36:40] a start. Um, and, uh, yeah, I remember thinking we’ve got to make some [00:36:45] changes. So we explained to our team what was acceptable and what [00:36:50] wasn’t. Um, and some of them, I don’t think they liked the sound of it. [00:36:55] So over time, when reality set in that that it is going to be like that, then [00:37:00] some of them decided to leave, and I remember there being a dentist. [00:37:05] She was quite a senior dentist, and she was making things difficult [00:37:10] because every time we had a new initiative or a new idea, she would always [00:37:15] challenge it. And it was, uh, got to a point where it was unacceptable. Now it was [00:37:20] a bit of a dragon and like, everybody was a bit scared and tiptoed around her and just gave her the nurse she [00:37:25] wanted let her work where she wanted, you know, those kind of things.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Alif Moosajee: So I had a chat with [00:37:30] her, and I said to her, look, I don’t think it’s going to work. Um, so I asked her to leave, and [00:37:35] I think when that happened, everybody really, you [00:37:40] know, they they set up and they took notice, um, and I didn’t do it for that.

Payman Langroudi: No, [00:37:45] it’s interesting that sometimes that one person can really ruin the [00:37:50] sort of clarity of of the room. Right. But if as [00:37:55] soon as you say something, someone immediately comes in and jumps in and says, yes, but whatever. Yes, [00:38:00] that’s one thing. But also, as you’re kind of alluding to, the act of asking [00:38:05] someone like that to leave sometimes puts everyone else on on sort [00:38:10] of report in a way. Right. You know, the decisiveness, I mean, [00:38:15] in the end, what is a leader? Yeah. In the end, the leader has to has to sort of set [00:38:20] the tone, um, for, for for what? The direction that [00:38:25] you’re going to go. Right. And I think.

Alif Moosajee: You’re absolutely right, because I remember custodian of the [00:38:30] vision that was that was something that I read somewhere. And I felt that that at one [00:38:35] point was the most important part of my whole job was to keep [00:38:40] what I had as my vision clear in my own mind and work out. Am I taking a step [00:38:45] towards it by doing this, or am I going away?

Payman Langroudi: And was your wife Romana [00:38:50] there from the from the get go from the beginning, or.

Alif Moosajee: The intention was that she wasn’t [00:38:55] meant to be.

Payman Langroudi: But you soon realised.

Alif Moosajee: I realised I needed her, and, uh. [00:39:00] And I still need her now. She’s incredible.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing how many practices there’s a husband and wife [00:39:05] sort of situation going on.

Alif Moosajee: And I wonder if how how many of that is necessity as well? [00:39:10]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Alif Moosajee: Because.

Payman Langroudi: You.

Alif Moosajee: Need someone trusted to.

Payman Langroudi: But is there, is there a manager as well. [00:39:15]

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So we’ve got layers of management in the sense that we have, uh, [00:39:20] girls who are very senior and manage the nurses and they look after [00:39:25] the nurses and that’s it. Then we have, uh, the, our lead, who is [00:39:30] more to do with compliance and making sure like associate salaries and schedules [00:39:35] and audits and all of these things are done. And then we’ve got a front of house team [00:39:40] and again, they are managed themselves. They will then feed into Romana. Um, [00:39:45] and if there are problems classically patient complaints [00:39:50] or, you know, it’s not even a complaint as much as it’s just some, even a 1% [00:39:55] dissatisfaction in a Then I’ll be told. And then I’ll make that call. And it doesn’t [00:40:00] matter which dentist it is, I like to be the one to iron those things out. Um, and [00:40:05] I and I don’t mind doing it because I think if you nip it in the bud and get to it the [00:40:10] right time, you can often enhance the relationship you have with that patient. Of course, by having [00:40:15] acted on it in an appropriate way.

Payman Langroudi: They become the best patients.

Alif Moosajee: Absolutely. They become evangelists.

Payman Langroudi: Well, [00:40:20] let’s talk about, for instance, that patient that you should have given the money back to. Yes. Who ended [00:40:25] up with the GDC thing? When I was a dentist, I used to give money back all the time. Yeah, yeah, like [00:40:30] you say, a 1% problem. I’d give money back, um, even if it wasn’t my fault. [00:40:35] Although I do agree with you. Some things are grating, and and blackmail is particularly [00:40:40] one of the ones that grates the most.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, I think the way that he wrote that letter, it probably did rub [00:40:45] me up the wrong way.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. And I think these days it’s more I’ll give you a bad review or something. Quite is [00:40:50] the is the way people go with that. Yeah. I don’t like that either. I don’t like that either.

Alif Moosajee: They know how to [00:40:55] hurt us. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I don’t like. Hey, do me this deal or I’ll go to a competitor. [00:41:00] I don’t even like that one. Yeah. Yeah. Which in business is a bit, like, weird. Yeah. [00:41:05]

Alif Moosajee: No, but I agree with you, I don’t. I like to be master of my own [00:41:10] destiny, and I don’t. I don’t want to be the person who, like, felt like they had to beg [00:41:15] for this or bend backwards for something. Yeah, I’m with you on that.

Payman Langroudi: So? [00:41:20] So then did it look the way it looked when I went there? Was that you guys to sort of change the [00:41:25] way it looked?

Alif Moosajee: Uh, if it was nice, it was probably us. Yeah, but no. [00:41:30] And joking aside, when we bought it, it looked like an NHS practice. Oh, okay. Um, even. [00:41:35]

Payman Langroudi: Though it was private.

Alif Moosajee: Even though it was private and there was, uh, one surgery. This [00:41:40] is the principal. The outgoing principal. His surgery was done to his taste. [00:41:45] Nice. Different to mine, but it’s a nice surgery. Um, so now [00:41:50] it’s funny. When you go, there’s six rooms which all look very similar. Black and white and everything. [00:41:55] And then there’s one room which is just different. I’ve just not had the heart to refurb because it’s perfectly functional. [00:42:00] Um, it just looks.

Payman Langroudi: So did you do it up in stages, or did you do it up right at the beginning, or how did [00:42:05] you do it?

Alif Moosajee: Uh, we were strategic, I suppose, in the way we did it. It had to be done in stages, [00:42:10] budgetary, to be honest, but also just disruption. Um, and I know a lot of people [00:42:15] go in and they do their surgery first, but I thought about it, uh, I [00:42:20] wanted to do the waiting room first because I thought, that’s the biggest bang for your buck. That’s when patients will [00:42:25] all enjoy it and see it and actually be there long enough to notice [00:42:30] what’s happened. Um, and then we had at that point there were four, five [00:42:35] surgeries, so four dental surgeries and one hygiene surgery. So I did the hygiene surgery [00:42:40] first because I thought then all patients would get the benefit of that rather than a [00:42:45] quarter of the patients if I just did one Dental. And then after that we started doing the Dental. [00:42:50] And then we also did a study club, a study area on the top floor, which is where you came to [00:42:55] to see beautiful also. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: For how many years were you reinvesting? [00:43:00] Do you feel like you’re still.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. I mean, we still are, but I’d say [00:43:05] to to a much lesser degree of percentage or whatever. But yeah, I would say it’s probably a good five, [00:43:10] five, six years we lived a very sort of meagre life. And [00:43:15] it was okay because as a family, we were so invested in the vision that, [00:43:20] you know, you just get on board and it becomes almost like a hobby, [00:43:25] I suppose, to to improve the place and look at what’s the next thing that we can do. And [00:43:30] once you’ve got a, um, you know, good people around you as well and a good team of people who you can say, [00:43:35] right, I want that. That’s what I would like it to be. And then the guy just gets on with it and he [00:43:40] employs the team and gets all the people in to do. And yeah, I mean that that [00:43:45] that helps. That helps an awful lot. And it left Romana and I with the headspace then to [00:43:50] to ensure that the team were on board, that the culture was right, that our [00:43:55] relationship with patients was framed correctly. So just control [00:44:00] the narrative in as many ways as possible. Make sure dentists are coming on board [00:44:05] that are aligned with what we want to achieve. Yeah, all of those things.

Payman Langroudi: What’s [00:44:10] the positioning? I mean, in Leicester, is it near the top of the sort of price [00:44:15] bracket or.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, I wouldn’t say that we’re hugely more expensive [00:44:20] than the other private practices. I’d say we’re yeah, there’s a reasonable amount of parity there. [00:44:25] But we do aim to. Yeah I suppose, knock the socks off the patients that come [00:44:30] and ours is a place where. Well, this is what I will always say to the staff. I say that [00:44:35] when people come, they will they can’t, they can’t judge how crisp my margins are. [00:44:40] They can’t judge where my implants place. Very true. Right. But what they can judge is how they [00:44:45] feel when they are there, and they will judge everything that they can. [00:44:50] And I might have even been you that said this, that, that they like. They’ll judge the toilets. [00:44:55] Yeah, yeah, yeah, they’ll judge the dust in the corner.

Payman Langroudi: And certainly one of my things. Yeah. [00:45:00] You know, when I, when I go to practices I have a quick, you know, on the train or whatever. You have [00:45:05] a quick look on the website. Have a quick look on the social. Yeah. Um, [00:45:10] I read through the dentist profiles. I read through much of it, actually, obviously the whitening [00:45:15] bit I’m interested in. Um, but but there where I really go is, you know, the Google reviews. [00:45:20] Yes. And you can look at reviews in a sort of a qualitative way [00:45:25] or a quantitative way. Right. How many and all that. But what I quite enjoy is, [00:45:30] you know, the at the top of the Google reviews, there’s the words that are mentioned the most. [00:45:35] Yes. And there’s one word I look for and it’s not often mentioned, [00:45:40] but I always make a bet with myself. If I see that word mentioned a lot, then when [00:45:45] I get there, I kind of know what it’s going to. It’s going to be a good practice. Yes. And the word is feel. Feel just [00:45:50] what you said. Yeah. And you know, it feel tends to come up a lot.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the way they make me feel. They make you [00:45:55] feel really calm. This sort of thing. Yeah. Um, it’s such an important point, and it’s [00:46:00] one you can’t even measure. Yeah. It’s difficult. I mean, other than this Google review. Yeah. [00:46:05] Yeah. I think some of the most important things in business, let [00:46:10] alone a service business like dentistry, are immeasurable. Yes. You know, and [00:46:15] on the other hand, you’ll get accountants telling you to measure everything. Kpis. Yeah. You [00:46:20] know, we just went with the meeting and, you know, add the about how many, how much the [00:46:25] CPM cost per thousand eyeballs that see your ad. Right. And [00:46:30] then and then obviously how many of those comments are training. How many of those become users? [00:46:35] How many of those become big users? How many of those become regional centres? It was all it [00:46:40] was all numbers, right. And I often think like the relationship of [00:46:45] the practice with our sales team, or the way someone feels when they open [00:46:50] one of our boxes. It’s way more important than all of this stuff. Yeah, [00:46:55] but it’s so, so difficult to measure that.

Alif Moosajee: Yes, and I think you’re right. We are obsessed. [00:47:00] Well, we can only measure what we can measure. And you’re right. It skews the [00:47:05] importance of the things that I agree with you. I’m probably not really that important. [00:47:10] It’s like, I think some people get fixated on money, but it’s because it’s easy to [00:47:15] measure how rich you are because it’s a number. It’s very difficult to measure how happy [00:47:20] you are.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Alif Moosajee: That’s right. Or how healthy you are. These things are harder to quantify.

Payman Langroudi: Apparently, [00:47:25] Porsche has a thing. Yeah, that is impossible to measure, but it’s the reason why everyone buys a Porsche. [00:47:30] Really? It’s to do with the accurate. As you turn the steering wheel, the accuracy that it it’s got, [00:47:35] it’s got it’s got a word for it. It’s like, I don’t know, tracking steering tracking or something. And it’s the reason [00:47:40] why people buy Porsches but it’s impossible to measure it. Is that right? You know, you can measure a 0 to [00:47:45] 60. Yeah, yeah. And 0 to 60 on a Ferrari. Might be faster than on a Porsche. Yeah, but it’s [00:47:50] the way this Porsche goes round the corner. Responsive.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, yeah, I love that.

Payman Langroudi: And I [00:47:55] think it’s such an interesting thing to actually pinpoint some of those things in a practice and [00:48:00] build in some of those things. And, you know, it’s nice and easy [00:48:05] in a, in a small situation where you’re on site. Yes. [00:48:10] To say to everyone, look, we just want to make everyone feel great, make people feel [00:48:15] like they’re they’re coming to your home or something. That’s a nice way of saying it to staff. Yeah. And [00:48:20] make it feel memorable. Um, but then sometimes you go to a massive, [00:48:25] I don’t know, I don’t shop at Louis Vuitton, but if I did, I’m sure [00:48:30] if I walked into Louis Vuitton in, um, Mumbai or in wherever, [00:48:35] Chicago, both of those shops will make you feel $1 million. [00:48:40] Yeah. Yeah. And so what I’m saying is that building in some things, and we’ve got [00:48:45] such an amazing sort of scope for it, right? You know, every single human who’s going to walk into this practice, [00:48:50] you know, you know, they’ve got appointments. Yeah. You could take it to the nth [00:48:55] degree and really look these people up and find out who they are and then know what their faces look like. [00:49:00] And on the way in, open the door. We’ve been expecting you. Here’s your favourite. Whatever. You could really [00:49:05] take it as far as you want. Yeah. And so what I’m saying is there’s a lot of scope in [00:49:10] dentistry. I agree for these, whatever the word is, I’m sure Chris Barrett has a word for this [00:49:15] non-essential essentials or something.

Alif Moosajee: But there is there’s a there’s a super personalisation [00:49:20] that we can strive for isn’t it. And I think personalised [00:49:25] care is is probably the minimum standard these days. What I mean by that, I [00:49:30] think I did a short video on this once because I do these YouTube smiling dentist videos. Um, [00:49:35] and I remember going to see a GP about a problem that I had. I think it was [00:49:40] like a, I felt like there was a blocked sinus or something like this. And what they said was take the [00:49:45] decongestant for six weeks and then if it hasn’t cleared, come back again. And I was like, [00:49:50] okay, I’ll level with you, doc. I’m a dentist. And what we taught and what I try [00:49:55] and do is I try and understand what the problem is first, and then I treat it. I [00:50:00] don’t just treat with decongestant exactly and hope it goes away, [00:50:05] because I feel like I’ve probably done a disservice. Is there a way that we can’t go for an endoscopy? Because [00:50:10] if there is a block, it’s an actual blockage there. This decongestant ain’t going to do much, mate. And, [00:50:15] um, I realised when I looked into it more that when you are looking [00:50:20] at the statistics of how many people will get better as [00:50:25] a result of, uh, nasal blockage, just using a decongestant, [00:50:30] it’s enough to justify that approach. When you look at the statistics [00:50:35] of it all. But that is population Elation medicine, isn’t [00:50:40] it? And that’s very different to looking somebody in the whites of the eyes and saying for [00:50:45] you, I know it’s wrong, but the study said I should, so I’m going to [00:50:50] do this. I think somewhere we’ve missed the point of what we’re doing. I [00:50:55] think we should really listen to that other human being.

Payman Langroudi: The GP is not even comparable [00:51:00] to private dentistry, I think you know. True. I mean, I don’t know about your GP, man. Mine [00:51:05] keeps me waiting 40 minutes.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Routinely. Yeah. Routinely.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. It’s a it’s a [00:51:10] power trip.

Payman Langroudi: Well.

Alif Moosajee: I think they’re drowning, aren’t they?

Payman Langroudi: I don’t think they’re doing it on purpose, [00:51:15] but but but the massive difference, insomuch as the receptionist doesn’t look up, by [00:51:20] the way, some, some dental practices that can happen to the doctor doesn’t even look up. He’s [00:51:25] constantly typing. Yeah, yeah. And there’s a little sign on the wall saying one problem at [00:51:30] a time or something like as if as if, you know, like, like my problem with my, uh, [00:51:35] diabetes might not be affecting my or my that’s falling off.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. [00:51:40]

Payman Langroudi: Ridiculous idea. Yeah. Um, but but your point is absolutely right. Your point is absolutely [00:51:45] right. Um, what I was kind of going with is what tactics [00:51:50] do you use outside of saying to people take care of people? I mean, are there [00:51:55] tactics that you use? Are there sort of, um, surprise and delight type things? I mean, you’re [00:52:00] a Phillips Cole, right? Yeah. Hurts. Really hurts me.

Alif Moosajee: But I’m just [00:52:05] delighted I was still interesting enough for you to invite me.

[TRANSITION]: We’re friends.

Payman Langroudi: We’re friends. Um, [00:52:10] I’ve had the competitive composite courses on, you know, [00:52:15] um, but you’re a Phillips. When I was a dentist, um, my boss didn’t like this, [00:52:20] so I ended up having to do it myself. I used to surprise and delight. Come out with a Sonicare. Yeah. [00:52:25]

Alif Moosajee: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Surprise and delight. And it was. It was. I had them in my in my. I talked to the rep, [00:52:30] and I said, I’m going to do this. I’m not going to sell them. I’m giving them out for free. Yeah. [00:52:35] So do me a deal. I’d buy 20 at a time. Nice and surprise and delight a patient [00:52:40] with it at the right moment to start with. It was like, um, [00:52:45] you know, big case. I used to back then to fit the veneers. Yeah. People [00:52:50] are happy. Here’s a free electric toothbrush. But sometimes [00:52:55] I’d give it to someone just where we had a just a great conversation. Almost like a, like a talk [00:53:00] trigger thing where you want to you want to impact one person a lot. [00:53:05] They hadn’t spent the cost of the toothbrush. Yeah, they’d come for an examination, [00:53:10] but we’d had a great conversation, and I and the nurse would sort of make [00:53:15] a little thing of it. Oh, you gave it to you or something? Yeah, but that patient [00:53:20] would be then. Just like. Like with you forever. Yeah. So that was a tactic I used [00:53:25] to use as a as a dentist. As an associate. Yeah. But do you have tactics? Things you do.

Alif Moosajee: I [00:53:30] can’t say that we have like, it’s great that you’ve thought of it because I think that’s probably going [00:53:35] to be something I’m gonna try and think.

Payman Langroudi: Neil Gerrard has a thing. If anyone is ever kept waiting. [00:53:40] I mean, maybe, maybe you have a rule in your practice. No one is kept waiting.

[TRANSITION]: No, but we do [00:53:45] that.

Alif Moosajee: If someone is kept waiting or if we if it’s obvious that we’ve dropped the ball somewhere, then we’ll try and heal the [00:53:50] hurt.

Payman Langroudi: Yes, Neil Gerrard has a thing. He has a cupboard with stuff in it. Yeah, yeah. And [00:53:55] it’s like chocolates, champagnes, vouchers. And for him, if anyone’s [00:54:00] ever kept waiting they, they hand out one of those things but.

[TRANSITION]: And we, we.

Alif Moosajee: Have things [00:54:05] for that. And then I’ve got that book that I wrote which is something that sits in the surgery. So [00:54:10] it’s.

Payman Langroudi: A book or.

[TRANSITION]: Is.

Alif Moosajee: It. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So it’s a, the structure of it is that the [00:54:15] chapter headings are the questions that I used to get asked a lot by patients. And then [00:54:20] the body of the chapter is an answer that I hope is palatable to them. [00:54:25] So there’s no jargon. I really worked hard to try and make it as clear the [00:54:30] explanations, um, and I’ll often give that book to patients. And it’s funny you mentioned this. [00:54:35] It’s not always the big cases, but it’s just someone who you’ve had a nice chat with, someone who actually [00:54:40] seems interested. Um, well, look, I’ve got this book and it’s about dentistry. Have [00:54:45] a read of it. And, you know, you seem to. And it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of.

Alif Moosajee: Social.

Payman Langroudi: Proof as well, right? It’s proof [00:54:50] that you are an expert.

Alif Moosajee: I suppose you’ve written a book. It’s like he’s an author. Wow. This [00:54:55] is. But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I get asked this question quite a lot by people starting practices. You know, [00:55:00] they say, what should I do? Right. And I think especially with squats. [00:55:05] Right. You want to be known for something. Yeah. I mean, once [00:55:10] you’ve been around a while, it’s a bit different. Right. But it’s a squat. You want to be known for a [00:55:15] thing. And I think of it a lot. You know, we we used to at every single [00:55:20] touchpoint. We used to say be one guaranteed. Yeah, yeah. Because that was for me [00:55:25] the thing that would spread. Yeah, yeah. And so you need a spreadable story. Yeah, [00:55:30] yeah. And so what should be the spreadable story about a new practice that touches [00:55:35] down somewhere? What should it be? It’s difficult because people say, oh, um, when I asked them, [00:55:40] they said, what is it? What’s what is your I guess it’s a USP.

Alif Moosajee: Usp.

Payman Langroudi: What is your us. And they go, well, you [00:55:45] know, we’re really like personalised care or something. Yeah. But that [00:55:50] story that story is not spreading between patients. Yeah. They’re lovely. Okay. Yeah. [00:55:55] All well and good. But I think the lowest hanging fruit. Yeah. Painless. Yeah. [00:56:00] It’s because half the population is scared. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you [00:56:05] can you can say to all your associates, listen, we only give painless injections here. Yeah. And it’s [00:56:10] a slower injection. There’s lots of topical and all that. Yeah. I think that’s the lowest hanging fruit. Yeah. If [00:56:15] you. If you open. And that. At every touchpoint. Painless. I’d call it painless dentistry. [00:56:20] If the easiest. Yeah. Yeah. The easiest move would be to do that. Right. But [00:56:25] you need something. You need. You need a story to spread.

Alif Moosajee: I think I love that. I remember being on [00:56:30] a on a course where they spoke about this. They said the problem with the word painless is it’s [00:56:35] got the word pain in it. True. So you have to the patient has to think of pain first. [00:56:40] So. So I quite like the word comfortable. True. Yeah. Comfy. Comfy is [00:56:45] a nice word. Yeah. And I think I did audit once at the number of times I used the word pop in. [00:56:50] I’m just gonna. I’m just gonna pop you back now.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Alif Moosajee: Just pop a little bit of local in.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I see.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. [00:56:55] As soon as I became aware of that. But these, um, the reason I mentioned comfy and pop is they’re [00:57:00] very soft words as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Gentle Dental. Right.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: My my buddies, [00:57:05] um, they’ve they’ve got a chain.

Alif Moosajee: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Gentle.

Alif Moosajee: Dental. Yeah, yeah, yeah, [00:57:10] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful practice. I don’t know if you’ve seen them. Croydon.

Alif Moosajee: Okay. I’ve definitely. I’ve heard, I’ve heard of [00:57:15] them, but I’ve not seen the.

Payman Langroudi: Planning practices, man. Now, tell me this. You seem [00:57:20] to have done such a great job with this one. Why didn’t you go to two [00:57:25] and three and 27?

Alif Moosajee: I so Romano and I just had this [00:57:30] thing. And the way we’ve kind of encapsulated there’s one Harrods and there’s one Oakdale. [00:57:35] And I think we were probably a bit worried that if we went in the [00:57:40] business enough.

Payman Langroudi: Yourself.

Alif Moosajee: Ourselves, then it would lose its touch. Um, [00:57:45] and I guess.

Payman Langroudi: Did you consider it?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, [00:57:50] yeah, we thought about getting another site, and then I think at the time we thought rather than doing that, why [00:57:55] don’t we expand what we have? And that’s when we turned we I think we’d maxed out the five chairs. [00:58:00] So I mentioned that we were two and a half to begin with. Um, we filled up the five so [00:58:05] that they’re actually properly running. And then we put two more in. And then I spoke [00:58:10] to somebody else and they said, look, you’ve done the right thing there, because if you’ve got another site, you’d have had the whole [00:58:15] overhead of another place as 100%.

Payman Langroudi: But amazing advice. Yeah, that sweat [00:58:20] the one, the one fully before going to two. Yeah, yeah. And it’s [00:58:25] almost a vanity metric isn’t it, to say 2 or 3?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, but.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but if you if [00:58:30] you have a practice running 8 to 8, seven days a week. Yes. And you’re [00:58:35] from, from a building perspective, completely maxed out. [00:58:40] Yeah. Then, okay, I think think about a second practice. But if you don’t have that. [00:58:45] Yeah. Get to that. Yeah. Yeah I can think of one in Sheffield that’s massively [00:58:50] successful start up as in a squat. And they were talking about [00:58:55] the second practice. I was looking around thinking it was just so much space for growth here. You know like there’s [00:59:00] this huge area back there. I was like how about there? Why can’t you do something with that? And they were [00:59:05] like, yeah, but we thought second just there is a there is a sort of vanity I agree, I [00:59:10] agree. So you looked at it, you thought about it, you thought, well grow this first and then you got to a point of [00:59:15] contentment.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I think what also happened is that we realised [00:59:20] that, okay, the business should not be the [00:59:25] end point. In fact, if we’re thinking about our life holistically.

Payman Langroudi: To live, live to work. [00:59:30]

Alif Moosajee: Absolutely. Yeah. So what the business really needs to do now is just service us. Um, [00:59:35] and and not. I don’t just mean financial. It’s still a reason to wake up in the morning. [00:59:40] It’s a reason to be challenged, not a reason to be challenged. But it’s a it’s a vehicle [00:59:45] for challenge. Um, it’s a vehicle for me to go and go in and do some implants and practice [00:59:50] my hobby. Um, so it serves a lot of purposes, and I think [00:59:55] at the right level as well, that still allows me freedom to do to [01:00:00] do other things. So then I thought, yeah, then if I want a second one then, then what what [01:00:05] what is it that I can’t buy now? And again, it’s not all about money, but I [01:00:10] really think money is very, very important when you don’t have it. Yeah, it’s probably the most important thing, [01:00:15] but. But when you have enough to be able to go on holiday where you want, where what [01:00:20] you want, drive what you want, then you start thinking, What am I going to [01:00:25] give in order to have more money that I don’t need to spend?

Payman Langroudi: But [01:00:30] I had a guy here yesterday, um, and I was discussing this very [01:00:35] thing. Yeah. And my own issues with the difference between happiness and [01:00:40] pleasure. Yes. And joy and contentment. [01:00:45] Yes. I see contentment in. It’s almost a separate box to those other three, even [01:00:50] though those three are different. Right. Pleasure and joy are different things. Yeah. And I was [01:00:55] I was discussing the tension between contentment and [01:01:00] progress.

Alif Moosajee: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And we certainly have it in our culture. It’s almost like if someone [01:01:05] says they’re content then others, some others think it’s [01:01:10] not. Not ambitious.

Alif Moosajee: Correct.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. And is it possible to be content [01:01:15] and ambitious at the same time. Is it possible? I think so. Yeah. Well, this cat [01:01:20] who was sitting in front of me, 24 practices, by the way. Yeah, yeah. Um, he was saying that like [01:01:25] he was saying, look, I always want the next thing. Yeah, and that’s a good thing. Yeah. Yeah. And I was [01:01:30] trying to say, look, it’s. Everything is a good thing and a bad thing. Yeah. You know, there [01:01:35] isn’t something that’s only good. Every good thing has a bad, bad edge to [01:01:40] it. And the other way around sometimes as well. Yeah. But I’m interested in. How did you get to this? Were you [01:01:45] always that cat? Were you always the kind of guy who found it very easy to be content? Or did [01:01:50] you have to buy a Porsche before you could get to that point, or what was it?

Alif Moosajee: It’s a [01:01:55] great. That’s a brilliant question, because yes, I think I did. I had some notion I didn’t I don’t think I even [01:02:00] wrote them down, but I had some notional things in my.

Payman Langroudi: These receptors in your brain that [01:02:05] needed filling.

Alif Moosajee: They needed.

Payman Langroudi: Filling.

Alif Moosajee: Absolutely. And, and yeah. And it’s so funny you mention that. [01:02:10] But when I had a Porsche a Porsche. Yeah I thought great. You know, that’s one of the things [01:02:15] ticked off that is.

Payman Langroudi: Which one did you get.

Alif Moosajee: So I got the, the the Taycan. That was [01:02:20] about just over four years ago. And then I’ve got a different one now. I’ve got this. So, you [01:02:25] know the the electric Macan. Oh it’s nice. It’s like a 4×4. Lovely, lovely. [01:02:30] I’m really quite. I quite like that one, actually. Um, and then, uh, so there [01:02:35] were these things, and I actually remember having, like, a mini crisis where we were [01:02:40] where the last piece in the puzzle we were living in, like, a it was a rented house. It’s [01:02:45] a house we bought to put on rent while we were waiting for our home to be renovated. [01:02:50] And the renovation took obviously, you know, standard story took longer than we thought, [01:02:55] more expensive than we thought. Same, same. Um, but so. So two years [01:03:00] later, we finally move into this house and I’m thinking, oh my God. And I’m auditing [01:03:05] my life. Right. So I’m now I always wanted to teach, so I’m [01:03:10] doing lectures. I, um, I wanted to, to, to move away from general [01:03:15] dentistry, just doing implants part week working own a practice. Live [01:03:20] in a nice house. Drive a nice car. Wear nice clothes. You know all of those things, right? [01:03:25] Tick tick tick tick. I’ve done them all. That. That [01:03:30] means I’m going to die now. And I don’t know how I got this, but it’s like this is the happy ending. And [01:03:35] the next thing that’s going to happen, the credits are going to roll. So I got I got really worried. I freaked [01:03:40] out a bit.

Payman Langroudi: Not to mention none of those things actually give you the thing that you’re you’re after, right? [01:03:45] You know, that sort of buyer’s remorse as soon as you [01:03:50] say you like the car, right? But but are you a happier cat in this car than you were in the non [01:03:55] Porsche?

Alif Moosajee: No, probably not, but I arrived there in style.

Payman Langroudi: But go on, go on. So [01:04:00] then, was it really contentment came then?

Alif Moosajee: No, I think then what happened was [01:04:05] I, um. Right. So actually that was the time when I decided to go on this Tony [01:04:10] Robbins.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Alif Moosajee: Business one.

Payman Langroudi: The one in America.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. And I think the reason [01:04:15] was that I, I realised I reflected back in my early life and thought I had a bit [01:04:20] of a crisis just when I qualified. You know, all that stuff going on about how I didn’t feel like [01:04:25] I was. It was imposter syndrome. That was the one.

Payman Langroudi: That we’re looking for.

Alif Moosajee: That was before. And that’s [01:04:30] definitely what I had when I started and qualified. And I thought, great, I can diagnose a patient, understand the problem. [01:04:35] But you asked me to drill the cavity. I’m not sure I’ll put it in the right place. You know, that kind of stuff. So [01:04:40] going on Tony Robbins then really helped. I remember why actually, because [01:04:45] I had I had what we call now a fixed mindset. I didn’t know that was [01:04:50] a thing.

Payman Langroudi: As opposed to a growth.

Alif Moosajee: As opposed to a growth mindset. I only learned the labels later in life. [01:04:55] Yeah. Um, and so that’s why I remember thinking at that time, um, right. [01:05:00] So God has blessed me with an amazing brain, but he’s cursed me with shit hands. So that’s [01:05:05] just my life, right? That’s the the pay off, if you like. Um, I didn’t [01:05:10] realise that if you just actually try. And if you. If you take that stupid [01:05:15] inner a monologue out of your mind and say, I’m not always going to be. I just need [01:05:20] to practice. I just need to get good at this. So when I learned that that was actually an option, and [01:05:25] it’s one of the things I mentioned about Tony Robbins, you realise you have choices. You realise you have the ability [01:05:30] to do things. Um, yeah. That’s when I started getting good. And I’m right now, you know, [01:05:35] I can do what I want. To be honest. Um, but yeah. So I remember [01:05:40] that definitely being a thing, that Tony Robbins was a turning point at that point in my life. [01:05:45] So I wondered if I needed to reach out to Tony now to to to find out what my next [01:05:50] stage was. And yeah, I think I went down the wrong [01:05:55] path, actually, because the business mastery, I came back and I thought, right, I’m [01:06:00] going to shake up Oakdale and I’m going to put all these things in place and do all these things. And [01:06:05] I realised that actually what I was doing was piece by piece, um, [01:06:10] undoing a lot of the good work that myself, but probably more [01:06:15] so.

Alif Moosajee: Ramana had done. Or as that’s a great word organically. Yeah. [01:06:20] And and I realised I, we were losing touch and actually we are. Turnover [01:06:25] dropped that. Yeah. Now I don’t know if it was all my endeavours. I think it was also a tough year [01:06:30] financially. It was a last year. Um, but it became apparent to me that [01:06:35] it wasn’t the right move. So I started undoing some of the things that [01:06:40] I’d put in, and we went back to being Oakdale again, which was great. Um, but what I [01:06:45] did realise was that, um, I think my view of the world had become very [01:06:50] myopic, and so I thought I had clocked everything game over. [01:06:55] But actually it was just one part of what was really a bigger piece. [01:07:00] Um, there’s still health to look at optimising that. [01:07:05] There’s still, uh, emotional well-being, you know, these kind of things to look at. So there’s a [01:07:10] bigger world and and I’m not anywhere near as far, uh, towards [01:07:15] where I would like to be in these different facets. And in fact, it’s one of the reasons [01:07:20] I’ve reasons I’ve decided because I went I kind of moved away from teaching for a bit because I wanted to spend [01:07:25] a bit more time with the family and also spend a bit more time in the practice and in the business. [01:07:30] Um, and now that I’m kind of freeing myself from that burden, um, I’m [01:07:35] starting to do more teaching again, and I realise I missed it. You know, I really. [01:07:40]

Payman Langroudi: Really love teaching is fun.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, it’s one of it’s a wonderful thing to do.

Payman Langroudi: It’s more fun [01:07:45] than than patients, I think. And it’s it’s, uh. Well, well, it’s [01:07:50] only when you have lots of patients to worry about that teaching is more fun than patients, right? I kind of miss patients [01:07:55] sometimes. You know, I miss the conversations with patients. Yeah. Varied [01:08:00] conversations. Right? Yes. That’s that’s that’s the nice thing about it. And seeing them every six months. [01:08:05] Yeah. Um, but I don’t know, even when you think about that, I think about the [01:08:10] particular patients I remember the most, you know, maybe 30 in [01:08:15] total. Yeah. And, you know, maybe you’re seeing 300 or 500 for 30, [01:08:20] you know, ones that stick in your head. Yeah. Um, but that’s interesting [01:08:25] what you’re saying there. Um, let’s get to the darker part of [01:08:30] the pod.

Alif Moosajee: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Outside of that one episode with the GDC, [01:08:35] what stands out to you as the darkest sort of moment? [01:08:40]

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, that’s a good question. So I [01:08:45] think that, yeah, there have been there have been a few. So there’ve been some really [01:08:50] dark business days because of the.

Payman Langroudi: Running out of money. Like [01:08:55] that.

Alif Moosajee: Money. Thankfully, there was always enough in the account to [01:09:00] to keep us going. But yeah, I mean, it was tight at times, especially when, um, [01:09:05] when we started the practice and, you know, you’re used to a certain lifestyle as an associate [01:09:10] and a certain cash flow is an associate. Um, I still remember, and I talk to [01:09:15] new principals about this. If I’m trying to advise them, I say, look, whatever your financial barometer is, get [01:09:20] ready for a massive reset, because the first time you sign that check for paying the [01:09:25] wages, yeah, yeah, you will probably spend more in one transaction than you ever [01:09:30] did before. Absolutely. I still remember when I was an associate, we [01:09:35] went and we bought a TV. It was one of these Bang and Olufsen TVs, and I think we [01:09:40] financed it for like it’s an eight grand or ten grand TV or whatever. Um, and [01:09:45] that was I mean, that was the biggest purchase I remember, most certainly most extravagant [01:09:50] purchase I remember making my heart was like pounding when I was like, [01:09:55] I’m am I ready to sign up for this thing? And, I mean, that was a long time [01:10:00] before I was a principal. And then, yeah, just like ten grand for this, 20 grand for that. It just [01:10:05] it just goes out. So I think more than anything else that has changed my relationship with [01:10:10] money. Um, but yeah, thankfully, no. Money has never been the darkest thing. I [01:10:15] think it’s when we’ve had perhaps. And this this may resonate with other principles. [01:10:20] Sometimes what will happen is that you will find that you have a crop of staff, [01:10:25] and the staff are doing fine. Everything’s good. And then [01:10:30] there is some dissatisfaction amongst them. And then what will happen is [01:10:35] one, perhaps only one will become annoyed about something, but they become [01:10:40] what I like to call a, well, poisoner. Can I quote a guy? Really brilliant guy. Colin [01:10:45] Campbell, he’s a dentist in Nottingham.

Payman Langroudi: Nottingham?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, yeah. Amazing guy. And he really, really [01:10:50] helped me. I remember going on an oral surgery course when we were learning to take our wisdom teeth.

Payman Langroudi: His super duper place. [01:10:55]

Alif Moosajee: No, I think this was before he had that. Yeah. But I remember going in and ragging [01:11:00] these teeth out so that I could go and sit with him and talk to him about [01:11:05] business, because the guy is clever when it comes to that. He understands these things and he [01:11:10] gave me a masterclass, 1 to 1 masterclass on those things when I really needed. [01:11:15] It was just before I bought that practice. So he’s the guy who gave me that term, the well poisoner. [01:11:20] Now, anyway, you get this one. Well, poisoner ruins the narrative for others. They [01:11:25] start to notice things that they never did before because there was never a problem for [01:11:30] them. But this one person. Have you noticed how they always do this? Or they always do that? And. [01:11:35] Oh yeah, I do notice it now. Oh, God. This is perhaps this place isn’t as good a place to work as [01:11:40] I thought it was. And before you know it, you have maybe three, four, five people hand [01:11:45] their notice in all together. That was tough. That was tough. [01:11:50] Because now we had to somehow work out how to make this work. [01:11:55]

Payman Langroudi: And did you question yourself as, okay, you can blame the person, but [01:12:00] did you blame yourself to some extent as well?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, I think I think it’s natural to do [01:12:05] that.

Payman Langroudi: You have.

Alif Moosajee: To. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I think, I think it’s not only natural, but it’s [01:12:10] the right move. Yeah. So that then your, your day or your month [01:12:15] or your year is depending on you rather than other people.

Alif Moosajee: I love that I think you’re absolutely [01:12:20] right. The more you abdicate responsibility, the more you abdicate [01:12:25] control and your own feeling of destiny. Yeah, I definitely agree with that. [01:12:30] Yeah. Um, but the thing is, what I’ve realised, though now, is I think [01:12:35] we, we try and be very, very selective at the interview process as well [01:12:40] because we are not an easy practice to work at. And I level [01:12:45] with people, I say, I want this to be the best place for a patient to come, but in order [01:12:50] to provide that level to the patient, we’ve got to work hard. You know, we’ve got to do [01:12:55] not only the clinical stuff. Well, we’ve do the, um, the other touchy feely stuff [01:13:00] really, really well as well as we said, the feelings.

Payman Langroudi: Do you hire the clinicians? Obviously.

Alif Moosajee: Yes. [01:13:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And do you think you’re good at telling, like who’s going to be good and who’s not? Like, [01:13:10] how long will it take you. You’re not sure.

Alif Moosajee: Mixed. Yeah. Um, I have had [01:13:15] I’ve had some people who’ve started and then after a week or two, it’s then that it becomes apparent. And [01:13:20] it’s because sometimes people are really good at putting their talking. Yeah. Good [01:13:25] at talking and putting, presenting the part of themselves that they want to present.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re good at firing.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. [01:13:30]

Payman Langroudi: You fire quite quickly.

Alif Moosajee: Very quickly. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, did you have to learn that? [01:13:35]

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Were you very slow at firing before? And now you’ve learnt to be quicker?

Alif Moosajee: Yes, I [01:13:40] think so. I think what what we have to understand is that firing someone is not fun. [01:13:45] I don’t enjoy the conversation. I don’t enjoy the effect that it’s going to have on [01:13:50] that person’s life. They’ve probably given notice somewhere else. They’ve come to me in good faith and now I’m [01:13:55] telling them it’s not going to work. Yeah, so it’s upheaval for them as well. But I also realise [01:14:00] how hard I’ve worked on creating a reputation for the practice that [01:14:05] I own. And I’m not going to have somebody destroy it because they’re just [01:14:10] unsuitable. So yes, now I realise that of those two, the pain [01:14:15] of my practice burning is way too much for me to [01:14:20] pussy out of having a difficult chat with somebody.

Payman Langroudi: You know, when people talk about, [01:14:25] um, a business as a family, it’s unhelpful in [01:14:30] that sense.

Alif Moosajee: I.

Payman Langroudi: Agree. Yeah. The pro sports team. Much more helpful [01:14:35] way of looking. I love that much more helpful. Yes, a pro sports team. No one’s keeping anyone on a in Man [01:14:40] United because, you know, they’re worried about their feelings or something. Yeah, yeah. [01:14:45] Um, and and as much as I love the idea, when you ask our team [01:14:50] what’s it like to work at enlightened? Oh, it feels like a big family, much as I adore that that [01:14:55] that point. It’s not that. Yeah, and I’ve had to [01:15:00] learn that myself the hard way. You know, in as much as I thought, hey, we’re [01:15:05] a family, but but it’s not the best thing for the business anyway. Yeah. Yeah. And [01:15:10] your job as the leader is to keep the business going, right? Yeah.

Alif Moosajee: And we keep the business going [01:15:15] by looking after patients. I’ve never, ever felt that there has to [01:15:20] be. I mean, this is a point sometimes, isn’t it? You talk to some dentists and they feel like there is a tug, [01:15:25] that they can either be good businessmen or they can be good clinicians. And I don’t [01:15:30] believe that at all. I think the one they go hand in hand. And I think if you are looking [01:15:35] after people really well, you’re adding value to their lives, then the universe will [01:15:40] just sort it out that you will be rewarded for that. So I [01:15:45] don’t really care as much about the money coming in as I do about looking for opportunities to add [01:15:50] value to people and look for ways of looking after them better. And I [01:15:55] think the reason I do that, and I’m quite I’m almost distant from the numbers. Um, [01:16:00] I think the team, they like that because how can a nurse [01:16:05] get on board with lining my pockets? If [01:16:10] you know, if I’m that. If I’m that principle.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not inspirational, is it?

Alif Moosajee: It can’t be, isn’t [01:16:15] it? If all I’m thinking about is how do I improve margins here? How do I improve profit there? [01:16:20] The rest of my team are going to be left behind. I have to live that world on my own. Whereas [01:16:25] if I care about patient care, that’s what these girls want as well. [01:16:30] Because let’s face it, nurses are not paid the most amount of money in the world. So often they’re not. That’s [01:16:35] not what juices them. Making a difference is what juices them. And if they [01:16:40] work in a place where that’s what the whole thing is set up to do, then then that alignment [01:16:45] comes often quite easily.

Payman Langroudi: A very good point. It’s a [01:16:50] very good I mean, I only recently realised that the best way to even inspire [01:16:55] myself, let alone my team is to think about the [01:17:00] joy we bring to people because of their whiter teeth. Right. Yeah. And [01:17:05] I didn’t used to think of it that way, actually. I sometimes question myself, you know. Why? Only servicing [01:17:10] the rich, you know, and feel guilty about that or something, you know, like, um. [01:17:15] But but certainly the best way to talk about anything like that is in the way [01:17:20] you’re talking. Yeah. You know, to to make a difference for sure.

Alif Moosajee: And I [01:17:25] know earlier we touched on the question about the best lecture I ever went to.

Payman Langroudi: What was. [01:17:30]

Alif Moosajee: It? But so it was it was a DSD lecture by Christian Christian coachman. [01:17:35]

Payman Langroudi: Good lecturer.

Alif Moosajee: Great lecturer, great storyteller. And there were two bits of it that stood [01:17:40] out. And the one comes to this point really well. He goes on about [01:17:45] how we sell the best product in the whole world as dentists. [01:17:50] And that’s a smile. And if we think about what a smile means and what not, [01:17:55] having a smile also means if you’re not confident to smile at people, it can. It can really [01:18:00] change a person’s outlook. Outlook. Yeah, their interaction with others, [01:18:05] their ability to have a relationship to earn money, all of these things like they go [01:18:10] to an interview, they’re not going to get, you know, a great job. So the power we have to be able [01:18:15] to do good is is massive. And if I had the choice of my patients [01:18:20] spending money on a holiday or spending money on Coca-Cola or crap food or something, [01:18:25] or spending it on something that will improve them in a way that I know [01:18:30] they will say, thank you, doctor, you know, bless you, thank you. Afterwards. [01:18:35] You know, it’s a brilliant thing to be part of.

Payman Langroudi: I do want to talk [01:18:40] some clinical stuff rather than only management stuff. Right. Because I do, and [01:18:45] I want to kind of wrap it up in your kind of clinical era. [01:18:50] Yeah, I kind of let’s talk implants here because you can’t do implants without some stuff going wrong? [01:18:55] Absolutely. So, implant wise, what was the thing that happened? Adverse thing [01:19:00] that happened that taught you about implantology? I mean, what the sort of the. [01:19:05] Aha.

Alif Moosajee: Yes. Mine was, was quite a bad one, actually. Um, [01:19:10] I unfortunately drilled right into the mental nerve for a patient, [01:19:15] which was not obviously, nobody wants that. It was the third implant [01:19:20] I ever did. Now, at this stage, I was. I had a mentor. So it’s the guy I bought the practice from. [01:19:25] But, you know, he again, he’s a fantastic surgeon. But [01:19:30] when it came to mentorship, he loves to teach and to explain. But I think he found it [01:19:35] frustrating being over the shoulder. He’s the kind of guy who would just give me that. I’ll just [01:19:40] do it and he’d do it in less than half the time. So I remember the first one being quite stressful. Um, [01:19:45] the second one was a bit better, and this was the third one now. And now he’s thinking, [01:19:50] look, if you’ve got this man, I’m going to just walk off and I’m going to wander off somewhere else. I didn’t have [01:19:55] it, so I remember using it was Straumann implants. Their system is that they’ve [01:20:00] got long drill with the laser lines on it, and I just lost. I lost [01:20:05] my bearings when I was drilling. So I ended up drilling a lot deeper than [01:20:10] I should. I caused this injury.

Payman Langroudi: In the right direction.

Alif Moosajee: But deeper but deeper [01:20:15] but deeper. Exactly. Um, and and I didn’t. I didn’t even probably [01:20:20] know that I did it. It was only afterwards it dawned on me that. Hang on a second, look at the measurement. [01:20:25] What was the measurement that I drilled compared to the implant I’ve just taken out of the packet that looks [01:20:30] a bit shorter than what.

Payman Langroudi: Was it like, a lapse in thinking or you didn’t know how [01:20:35] far to drill? Or isn’t there a marker?

Alif Moosajee: So yeah, so so there isn’t a stop [01:20:40] or there wasn’t a stop when I know probably now. Yeah. Well, I [01:20:45] remember when it happened and I then I reviewed the patient and [01:20:50] you know, it was it was numb and it didn’t seem like it was getting better over [01:20:55] time. So whatever hope we both had. I mean, I tell you, the patient wants it to [01:21:00] get better. Bloody hell. You want to get it? Want it to get better as well?

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:21:05] was the numbness just the the the front. One side?

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. One side, one side. It was like. Yeah. [01:21:10] Basically like in that.

Payman Langroudi: Situation, there’s no there’s no question of removing the implant to hope that things [01:21:15] get better or is there.

Alif Moosajee: I think I probably didn’t place the implant at the time. Yeah. I [01:21:20] didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Place it.

Alif Moosajee: Just it was just the drill. The drill doing.

Payman Langroudi: So you did realise you’d done the wrong thing. [01:21:25]

Alif Moosajee: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, God. I realised in there. And then I did tell the patient at the time [01:21:30] and I realised that that, you know, you, it’s [01:21:35] almost for you as a person that if you can recognise that you’ve made [01:21:40] an error and be open about it at the time, you recognise it as soon as you [01:21:45] do, then yes. It’s not nice and it’s a horrible chat [01:21:50] to have, but it’s a lot better than having withheld that from somebody [01:21:55] and then having to come clean afterwards. That’s, I think, much worse in [01:22:00] so many ways.

Payman Langroudi: Did you know the patient for years before?

Alif Moosajee: Not for years, but she is a patient [01:22:05] that was like a general patient of mine. And at that time, I mean, I was new to [01:22:10] the practice. So it’s it’s Oakdale. I’ve taken over. I’m starting to see these patients. This [01:22:15] particular patient needs an implant. So I’ve decided I’m going to do it but under supervision. So [01:22:20] that’s kind of the story of that one, maybe 1 or 2. What happens in. So, [01:22:25] uh, in the end, she was all right. She’s a bit of a dragon as a person. [01:22:30]

Payman Langroudi: She was all right with it. She was okay. Better.

Alif Moosajee: No, it.

Payman Langroudi: Just never.

Alif Moosajee: Got better. It never got better. [01:22:35] So to this day, uh, so I don’t see it, but I saw her for a long time as my general [01:22:40] patient. And I would always ask her how it was, and she would always say, well, it’s a little bit [01:22:45] different from last time or it’s not no different from last time, but she was [01:22:50] really like cool person in the sense that she just accepted that it had happened.

Payman Langroudi: Up [01:22:55] to which tooth were you replacing?

Alif Moosajee: It would have been the lower right 4 or 5, [01:23:00] or.

Payman Langroudi: Around the point where it comes out at that point.

Alif Moosajee: Exactly, exactly. So probably, yeah. [01:23:05] Just before it’s come out.

Payman Langroudi: Just before it’s come out.

Alif Moosajee: It’s still central in the jaw and yeah, easy for that [01:23:10] to happen.

Payman Langroudi: So I all the hundreds of implants you’ve placed after is that like [01:23:15] front and centre in your mind? Yeah. It’s interesting that is for you because that [01:23:20] happened to you. It happened now. Now is an interesting question is if someone listens [01:23:25] to this, will it be front and centre? The whole point of the question is so we can learn from each other’s mistakes. Right. [01:23:30]

Alif Moosajee: But I made a huge change after that because, I mean, you can imagine the thought [01:23:35] process in my mind. You know, I’ve done three implants again. Yeah. How do I stop it? Am [01:23:40] I just not right for implants? Was my gut feeling of not doing implants? Was that actually the right [01:23:45] call?

Payman Langroudi: So all of.

Alif Moosajee: These things happened. Um, and so then I started thinking about [01:23:50] how do I mitigate this? So I started looking a lot into guided, and [01:23:55] I, and I did think notionally that guided would be for me, even when I bought the practice. [01:24:00] Um, I thought that I really liked the idea of that being a stress [01:24:05] free. Part of the process of putting the implant in is that I’m kind of assured it’s going [01:24:10] to go roughly in the right place. Um, and so then I committed to making sure that [01:24:15] every single one I did after that was guided.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Alif Moosajee: And that has been the change that I’ve [01:24:20] made. And I’m right. I’m not happy that that’s happened. I need to absolutely [01:24:25] underline it.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s a silver lining.

Alif Moosajee: But a silver lining came from it. And I like [01:24:30] to think it’s the right silver lining because I think and I don’t mean it in an arrogant way, but I feel like I [01:24:35] do right by people who have implants with me. And it would have been a shame if I’d given [01:24:40] up, um, because I think there are a lot of people who are better off for me. Having continued, [01:24:45] uh, and being able to provide that service for people.

Payman Langroudi: I like.

Alif Moosajee: That. So I think, uh, but [01:24:50] but that has been a boon for me. Um, I think I think, uh, [01:24:55] I mean, talk, talk for a long time about guides and not guides. And I know there is still some debate about [01:25:00] whether we should learn how to put things in freehand, but I’d probably say the antithesis. [01:25:05] Why would you want to make it overly hard for yourself, when at that time [01:25:10] I wasn’t really very confident as a surgeon. So, you know, just cutting and raising the flap and [01:25:15] all of that stuff. Oh, big effort, big effort. And now that’s up. I’m [01:25:20] going to start the process. Oh, God. So make the implant place [01:25:25] itself. And it just means that you can free up head space for all the other bits, like making sure [01:25:30] the keratinised tissue is managed well, making sure the bone grafting is done well, [01:25:35] but the implant just goes in.

Payman Langroudi: Bone grafting as well.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Normally, um, so [01:25:40] I really like doing immediate implants as I mentioned. So there’s, often bone grafting, uh, [01:25:45] you know, uh, part and parcel of that process. Yeah. During it. [01:25:50] And there’s always a way to augment and make things a bit better if you put bone in the right place. So. [01:25:55] So yeah, I’m not you know, I’m quite happy to do that. I like to.

Payman Langroudi: What stands out as like [01:26:00] a happy days or events in this journey. Like, I’m sure [01:26:05] there’s loads. But what stands out when you think of it like, at what point did you think, [01:26:10] wow, yeah, I’ve really done good there.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, I remember [01:26:15] there being a day where I had, um, so I’ve been working [01:26:20] towards a few clinical goals, and I think there was a day that maybe I did [01:26:25] a cerec and then I felt really good about that. I had taken [01:26:30] a scan on an implant, I did a bit of Botox, and then I did, I did something [01:26:35] else, and it was like I just recognised that when I looked at my day that [01:26:40] me Five years before that, who had decided not to do implants? Facial [01:26:45] aesthetics. Not going to do this, this, this and this. And I was and it was a bit of ortho in that day I think. And [01:26:50] and I thought, wow, you know, I’ve and I’m the principal of this place and I’ve [01:26:55] come a long way to just have the privilege to have done a [01:27:00] day like that.

Payman Langroudi: That must feel good. Like a super generalist as well, right? Like [01:27:05] when people talk about specialists a lot, but but I had, um. Do you know Martin Adriani? [01:27:10] Yeah. Martin.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, I know him. Really? Yeah. Lovely guy, but they’re both lovely.

Payman Langroudi: Super [01:27:15] generalist. Yeah. Like, I see the standard of his whitening is unbelievable, [01:27:20] let alone everything else that he does. He does all his own end his own implants, bone [01:27:25] grafts, sinus lifts, the whole thing. Cerec. They were very early on. Cerec. Yeah. [01:27:30] And there’s a lot to be said for a super generalist, you know, because it’s it’s a it’s a varied day.

Alif Moosajee: Yes. [01:27:35]

Payman Langroudi: Um, that said, there’s a lot to be said for specialising too, you know, That [01:27:40] when, when when young dentists ask me what should I do? And [01:27:45] you know, I just say, do anything. Do anything. Well, yeah.

Alif Moosajee: Do anything.

Payman Langroudi: Well, yeah.

Alif Moosajee: And [01:27:50] anything you do is everything you do as well.

Payman Langroudi: But but also anything you’re good at you’ll enjoy. Right. [01:27:55] It’s, you know, like, there isn’t a I’m sure there is, but it’s not like, oh, [01:28:00] if you become a super periodontist, you’re more suited to that [01:28:05] than if you become a super endodontist. You’re more I’m a kind of person who’s suited [01:28:10] to end a rather than. It’s whichever one you’re, you’re an expert at, you’ll enjoy. Yeah. [01:28:15] You know so and so but but but then a generalist as [01:28:20] well you know, it’s that it’s kind of like that being a pillar of that community in [01:28:25] a general practice. General practice. Yeah. And then everyone you’re seeing [01:28:30] in a general way, it’s a whole different thing to a specialist, a visiting specialist, you [01:28:35] know, that sort of thing.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah I agree.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve come to the end of our time. I’m going to end with with the usual questions. [01:28:40] Fantasy dinner party.

Alif Moosajee: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. Three guests.

Alif Moosajee: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive? Who [01:28:45] are you having?

Alif Moosajee: So we mentioned Tony Robbins.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Alif Moosajee: Um, I think this [01:28:50] I could so much I could learn from him which I’d love to. Um, the other one is, is, is a [01:28:55] funny one. I’ve developed a guilty pleasure recently on Netflix. They’ve started showing WrestleMania [01:29:00] and, you know, this WWE stuff. Um, so I think the Rock is a [01:29:05] really interesting person, and I think that there was a parallel with dentistry that I [01:29:10] thought about. They talk in, in wrestling about, you know, this, uh, it’s [01:29:15] obviously it’s fake and, you know, all the rest of it, but there’s a word for it. They call it kayfabe. So [01:29:20] kayfabe. Yeah. So if you are, um, in character then, [01:29:25] then you are, uh, you are performing and you’re presenting [01:29:30] what you want the audience to see. You’re presenting that to them. Yeah. And I saw [01:29:35] some parallels between that and dentistry, whereby we and we touched on this before we [01:29:40] went on air. But how sometimes we present ourselves to the patient as the all knowing God [01:29:45] who will look after everything. And what I’ve tried to explain [01:29:50] to patients is that there is stuff that we are very good at doing, [01:29:55] but there are sometimes still question marks about a diagnosis, for example, [01:30:00] or whether this treatment is going to be 100% successful. And what I’ve tried [01:30:05] to do is, again, absolve some of the stress of my own life by just [01:30:10] being honest with this person. Yeah. And if you can bring them on board [01:30:15] and just explain things in a really nice way. So again, I don’t need to sell [01:30:20] anything that I don’t think is in the right interest of the patient. I just want to provide them with the options [01:30:25] of things that I think will be good. And what that means is I can have a really open [01:30:30] and honest conversation.

Payman Langroudi: Conversation. Right.

Alif Moosajee: Human conversation. Exactly. Educate them [01:30:35] a little bit to the level they need to be educated at to make the decision about [01:30:40] that particular field of dentistry, and then let them make the decision that’s right for them. Explain [01:30:45] risks so that if something happens, you can say, well, look, we did mention that something [01:30:50] like that could happen. By the way, I sometimes have risks that I’ve not mentioned before and I [01:30:55] will sit them down. You know, I’m sorry I didn’t mention that. I promise I did not see that coming. [01:31:00] And you open yourself up humbly and in a human way. [01:31:05]

Payman Langroudi: And that vulnerability is really important and that the way you’re saying it, but also, you know, [01:31:10] the saying, I don’t know, you know, so important sometimes.

Alif Moosajee: So.

Payman Langroudi: Important. You know, I [01:31:15] had a junior young dentist. She has two different mentors, two different [01:31:20] people that she takes cases to. And she was saying, I can’t believe how differently they came [01:31:25] up with these two.

Alif Moosajee: Wow. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The same case.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And you know that’s a [01:31:30] reality, right? These are two super senior people. Yeah. Yeah. Coming [01:31:35] up with two totally different answers to the question.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [01:31:40] a reality. You know, it’s not changing a clutch on a car, is it? It’s.

Alif Moosajee: Well, absolutely. [01:31:45]

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely. And patients need to know that. Yeah. Lovely. So so.

Alif Moosajee: Breaking kayfabe. [01:31:50] That’s the key third person. Uh, and the third person. Okay, I, uh, I’ve been [01:31:55] invited to to do a lecture for, uh, a teaching [01:32:00] facility, and it’s a lecture of mine that I probably presented about [01:32:05] 4 or 5 years ago. As a result, I’ve had to watch that lecture again. [01:32:10] Um, and I realised I was I was a different person talking about really [01:32:15] different things. So I hope it doesn’t sound super like arrogant, but I thought having [01:32:20] the opportunity to have dinner with myself but at a different time in my life, but [01:32:25] not not not talk and give advice about, oh, it’s going to be okay, it’s going to be. But just [01:32:30] to listen, to watch. Yeah. And just to listen to what’s what was going on then. I [01:32:35] really love that. And I think I’ve been very lucky to have been able to do [01:32:40] webinars and videos and things. So I guess when I’m old and grey and [01:32:45] well have less hair than I have now, which is probably less possible, but I’ll be able to look back and maybe [01:32:50] watch myself at different times and see what conversations I was having [01:32:55] in between the presenting bits.

Payman Langroudi: You know, people keep a diary. Yeah. And they [01:33:00] they say that I’ve never done it myself. But people who keep a journal, they say they look back [01:33:05] on their journal from ten years ago or even ten days ago. Yeah. And the thing that was bothering [01:33:10] them ten days ago, they realised today isn’t anywhere near as bad as it was ten [01:33:15] days ago. But it’s kind of an interesting thing that, um, one of my, um, [01:33:20] dad’s friends was telling me that he’s kept a diary all his life, and he reads the sort [01:33:25] of the 25 year old version of himself.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And he’s now 80. [01:33:30] It’s an interesting thing.

Alif Moosajee: That really.

Payman Langroudi: Is. And we were talking about, you [01:33:35] know, we all had to run away from Iran, right? There was a revolution. And we were discussing what [01:33:40] do you take? Yeah. And I don’t have any photos of me before age seven [01:33:45] because. Because, you know, what do you take. They didn’t take the photos. Yes. Yeah. And this guy was saying how he [01:33:50] took his diaries. You know, it was an important thing to him, you know. Interesting. [01:33:55] Final question. It’s deathbed. Yes. Three pieces of [01:34:00] advice on your deathbed. For your loved ones, for the world.

Alif Moosajee: Um, I think [01:34:05] one would probably be to understand humanity and allow yourself [01:34:10] to be human. So what I mean by that is that we are we are still animals [01:34:15] and we’re tribal animals. We look for differences in others so that we can [01:34:20] stay together as a tribe and fend off others. Um, that’s one behaviour trait. [01:34:25] I mean, there’s so, so many. And not to be so hard on yourself. If [01:34:30] you have perhaps behaved in a way that’s maybe in the light of day. [01:34:35] Not the ideal thing, but it was a very human thing and you can see the humanity in it. [01:34:40] And also, don’t be so harsh on others who you feel have actually under [01:34:45] the reflection of it all. Have they’ve just acted in a very human way at the time? [01:34:50]

Payman Langroudi: Um, I don’t know.

Alif Moosajee: I think another thing is, uh, yeah. [01:34:55] To try and find the fundamental truths in things. Um, what [01:35:00] I mean by that, when I was younger, I used to watch this programme called Q.i. You know, this [01:35:05] one with Steve Stephen Fry. And it was funny how there is so much perceived [01:35:10] wisdom and everyone becomes very comfortable with thinking they know how stuff is. [01:35:15] And then that buzzer goes off and says, well, that’s not the answer at all. Here’s the reality, [01:35:20] real reality of it. So so allow yourself to carry on being curious, [01:35:25] uh, and just to enjoy the process of learning because I think that’s that’s [01:35:30] a wonderful thing. Love that. Yeah. And, um. Yeah. [01:35:35] Try to. Yeah. I think a nice one is just try to do something [01:35:40] that you enjoy. Um, I remember as a child, it would often be that, you know, if there’s [01:35:45] ten things and you’re good at six and not so good at four, you’d often spend [01:35:50] all your effort. And I think that was the mentality I was brought up with. Spend all your effort and energy getting [01:35:55] those four things up as good as the others. But I think now it’s. [01:36:00]

Payman Langroudi: Work on your strengths.

Alif Moosajee: Allow to work. Yeah. Allow yourself to work on your strengths.

Payman Langroudi: That with my kids, you know, like, [01:36:05] rather than the weaknesses. Of course, there is a minimum level that you want people to get to. But what about [01:36:10] if I said, you know, you can ask that question that way, the way you just said it. But another [01:36:15] way of answering that question is I didn’t do enough of X in [01:36:20] my life.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And you should. What would you say to that thing? I [01:36:25] wish I was more.

Alif Moosajee: I [01:36:30] don’t know that again. That’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Classically [01:36:35] Jim. Go to the gym, for instance.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But that’s ridiculous. But but you know what I mean. Like. Yeah. [01:36:40] Is there something do you wish you were more less risk averse. Do you wish you were [01:36:45] more, um, whatever.

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, I, I think that’s that’s a really [01:36:50] good one, actually. You’ve put the words in my mouth there because as I mentioned, I started off my, my [01:36:55] life and my career being such a timorous young man. Um. And [01:37:00] I wish I’d had it sooner. Yeah, absolutely. I think I’d be a lot [01:37:05] further on in my journey than than I am. And I still identify, [01:37:10] you know, they talk about these labels that we have like anxious, avoidant and this kind of thing. [01:37:15] And I still see elements of that in me. And, um, I [01:37:20] find that, you know, when I’m my centred self, I can act and control [01:37:25] who I am. But the moment there’s some stress, then we still turn into that seven [01:37:30] year old, don’t we? And we go back to that that person. And I think that’s that’s [01:37:35] the thing whereby if, if you can identify who [01:37:40] you are and the strengths and the weaknesses that come with it and try [01:37:45] and work on those, on on removing the weaknesses, then then you have a much more useful, [01:37:50] I suppose, personality that just works better.

Payman Langroudi: I feel like you’ve worked on getting [01:37:55] rid of the stress so you don’t have to get back to that person.

Alif Moosajee: But [01:38:00] I think it’s.

Payman Langroudi: A success man, which is success. You know, I.

Alif Moosajee: Didn’t want to. I didn’t [01:38:05] want to have regrets.

Payman Langroudi: What is what is success rate? What is success? Success is how you define it yourself. [01:38:10] Yeah, but if you’re saying that, you know you didn’t want to be this kind of person, when stress [01:38:15] comes along, you become that kind of person. Eliminate stress. Beautiful. Yeah, like that [01:38:20] means don’t open a second or third practice, for instance. Yeah, it’s the right thing to do in that moment. [01:38:25]

Alif Moosajee: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive, massive, uh, massive pleasure having you. Really, really enjoyed [01:38:30] it. It has been a real easy conversation. Thank you. It’s nice. Thanks, man.

Alif Moosajee: I really.

Payman Langroudi: Enjoyed coming [01:38:35] all.

Alif Moosajee: The way. And thank you for for inviting me.

Payman Langroudi: Of course.

[VOICE]: This [01:38:40] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one [01:38:45] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:38:50] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:38:55] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And [01:39:00] just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had [01:39:05] to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If [01:39:10] you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share [01:39:15] this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so so much for listening. Thanks. [01:39:20]

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