Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] enlightened online training to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time. Whitening underwhelms. Try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental. Leaders. The podcast where you [00:00:30] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:00:40] Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Sana Harazi onto [00:00:45] the podcast. Sana has taken a long route to get to the UK via Morocco [00:00:50] and France, and now working in two practices in West London. [00:00:55] Correct? Um, lovely to have you.

Sanaa Harroussi: Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: Lovely to have you. Um, we met [00:01:00] on Mini Smile makeover, and. I don’t know, man. I, you know, we meet a lot of delegates, right? [00:01:05] And with you, I felt a fire inside your belly. Thank you. A [00:01:10] real fire that you wanted to learn. I really wanted to learn. And now talking [00:01:15] to you. You’ve done all the post-grad stuff as well. Um, so now I understand why. [00:01:20] But lovely to have you.

Sanaa Harroussi: Thank you very much.

Payman Langroudi: So you grew up in Morocco. Where? [00:01:25]

Sanaa Harroussi: Rabat.

Payman Langroudi: The capital. Really beautiful.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Um, how [00:01:30] old were you when you went to France?

Sanaa Harroussi: So when I moved to. Lived there for a couple of years. [00:01:35] That was three years after qualifying. Uh, how old was I? I was 23 back [00:01:40] then.

Payman Langroudi: So you went straight from qualifying as a dentist to France?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah, I did, like, six months, [00:01:45] uh, voluntary work at the hospital as soon as I qualified. Um, and then the while [00:01:50] preparing exams to reach the postgraduates in Paris.

Payman Langroudi: And I expect it’s very competitive [00:01:55] to even get into dental school in Morocco.

Sanaa Harroussi: It was.

Payman Langroudi: Probably top 1% [00:02:00] of your class or whatever, right?

Sanaa Harroussi: But yes, you had to have very good grades to get [00:02:05] in the first place.

Payman Langroudi: Dental school like in Morocco. I mean, I suppose the only one you’ve been to, right? [00:02:10] So you don’t really know. But but.

Sanaa Harroussi: I know.

Payman Langroudi: Now that you’ve talked to people. [00:02:15]

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Compared to, for instance, being in Dental school here. What’s the main difference?

Sanaa Harroussi: Much [00:02:20] more challenging. They really push you to the limit. But what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. I think it did [00:02:25] help in a way. It was really, really tough. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But they kind of push you hard [00:02:30] here as well. You mean even more? Even.

Sanaa Harroussi: Even more. If we would be having the clinics [00:02:35] in the morning, we’d be taking the exams in the afternoon. You don’t even have a break in between. Mhm. Yeah. [00:02:40] And there is no mcqs. They just put like a title and you have to write [00:02:45] about whatever subject. You have to know what you’re talking about.

Payman Langroudi: Why didn’t history. How did it, [00:02:50] how did dentistry come on the scene.

Sanaa Harroussi: So how it worked as a teenager. Funny thing, as a teenager I used to [00:02:55] go often to the Into the dentist myself. Uh, and then one day, it [00:03:00] was the brother of one of my good high school friends was a dentist. So I went to a visit [00:03:05] and we started talking. What are you planning to do when you. After the baccalaureate? And I go after, [00:03:10] which is the equivalent of an A-level in Morocco. And, uh, and I go I’m not quite [00:03:15] sure. I’m just like weighing up my options. And he, he did ask, why don’t you go for dentistry? I was kind of like, I [00:03:20] don’t know, I’m not sure. Um, and, um, I kind of liked [00:03:25] the field. Um, and that’s how I took the decision to [00:03:30] try to apply for dentistry, and it worked quite well.

Payman Langroudi: Did you stay in Rabat for dental [00:03:35] school as well?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes, I was lucky because there is only two universities, uh, for dentistry in Morocco. Back then, [00:03:40] at the time when I became a dentist, there was only two universities, one in Rabat [00:03:45] and one in Casablanca. So I was lucky I could stay home. I didn’t even need to go to a different city. [00:03:50]

Payman Langroudi: And what were you like as a dental student? Were you very serious?

Sanaa Harroussi: Too serious.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. [00:03:55] I would always be sitting at the front.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. Uh, very, [00:04:00] very keen. And, uh. Yeah, the day when I graduated, I remember, [00:04:05] um, uh, one of the members of the jury, uh, and he goes, like, I really remember from [00:04:10] day one, she would always be sitting at the front. She would be focussed, wouldn’t even miss any lecture. Very [00:04:15] keen. Yes, I enjoyed it, I loved it.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think do you think like the being [00:04:20] a super serious student, then a super serious uni student? And [00:04:25] then you went post-grad in France and like constantly [00:04:30] being super serious has had like a an effect insomuch as now you [00:04:35] want to enjoy it a little bit.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. It’s important to find the balance. True. [00:04:40] So I try to find a balance. So with my kids, I’m not trying to push them too much because I want them to [00:04:45] have a good balance between enjoying theirselves. I was enjoying myself.

Payman Langroudi: But did your parents push quite [00:04:50] hard?

Sanaa Harroussi: Not at all. It was the opposite. I remember one day, I was preparing for an [00:04:55] exam and literally my mom was kind of enough. You need to rest. And she literally was pulling the book out of my hand. Please [00:05:00] give yourself a break up. It was the exact opposite with my elder brother. You had to. [00:05:05] They had to push him.

Payman Langroudi: Because he was like the firstborn son. Whatever.

Sanaa Harroussi: Uh, I mean, he’s four of us. He’s [00:05:10] the only boy I’ve got two older sisters and an older brother. Uh, and I remember with [00:05:15] him, they had kind of like, you need to study, but they never needed to do that with us. Especially with me. It was the opposite.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:05:20] are the other three doing now?

Sanaa Harroussi: So, uh, my two sisters live in Paris. Oh, yeah. Um, [00:05:25] my brother is still in Morocco. He’s based in Casablanca now.

Payman Langroudi: Any of them dentists?

Sanaa Harroussi: No. Uh, [00:05:30] my elder sister is an architect. Uh, my brother work. [00:05:35] I mean, he was qualified in, uh, he went to business school, and, uh, he [00:05:40] works in insurance now. Um, and then, uh, my third, my, um, [00:05:45] older sister, um, the one who stayed in, uh, in Paris [00:05:50] now, um, she works as a innovation [00:05:55] director in the insurance field.

Payman Langroudi: What was the reason for moving to Paris?

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, [00:06:00] catching up with my sisters was one point as well.

Payman Langroudi: Because both of.

Sanaa Harroussi: Them, [00:06:05] they were. Yeah, they they moved to Paris when I was at high school. Um, so, [00:06:10] yeah, it was nice to kind of, um, why [00:06:15] I picked Paris as a city, particularly. There was other cities where I could have done my postgraduate in France. Um, [00:06:20] but I love Paris. Beautiful city as well. It’s lovely.

Payman Langroudi: To specialise.

Sanaa Harroussi: To [00:06:25] specialise.

Payman Langroudi: That was the point.

Sanaa Harroussi: Exactly. I was keen on, like going the [00:06:30] extra mile.

Payman Langroudi: Doing more.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So. So you went into a pros program? Yes. [00:06:35] Like a full time?

Sanaa Harroussi: Uh, it was only. So the postgraduate [00:06:40] was like two days a week. So I ended up doing many certificates and many diplomas at the same time, because [00:06:45] I had to fill my time completely. I was literally like four days a week. So, [00:06:50] yeah, I ended up doing lots of post-graduates within the two years. But [00:06:55] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Two years you were there?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes. For two years. Full time? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Why didn’t you stay [00:07:00] in France?

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, I got married and my husband.

Payman Langroudi: Was living here.

Sanaa Harroussi: Was [00:07:05] living here. And to be honest, I came to visit, and I just loved London.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Sanaa Harroussi: And, yeah, [00:07:10] it wasn’t hard to take the decision to move to London. Uh, how.

Payman Langroudi: Do you feel? How do you feel about Paris? [00:07:15] I’ve got a real love hate relationship with Paris, you know, because we were just talking. My kids are in French school [00:07:20] as well as yours. Yeah. And, um, I feel like race relations there aren’t. Aren’t great. [00:07:25] There’s always a tension in the air.

Sanaa Harroussi: I feel much less racism in London compared to Paris. [00:07:30] Not everywhere in Paris. But you can feel the difference here. You really feel like [00:07:35] there’s much better integration, I would say.

Payman Langroudi: It’s funny because you wouldn’t think that from [00:07:40] the outside, Paris, London sounds like similar kind of cities, but, um, I [00:07:45] don’t know. It’s a beautiful city, right? There’s no there’s no doubt about that. But I can feel the tension [00:07:50] there. You know, compared to here. Do you feel the same, similar thing?

Sanaa Harroussi: I feel more comfortable here [00:07:55] before.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes. So don’t get me wrong, I love Paris. Yeah. And I would have loved [00:08:00] living there, but I prefer here by far.

Payman Langroudi: You know. Particularly we moved here in the late [00:08:05] 70s. Yeah, in the late 70s. Like, I actually remember we used to go to [00:08:10] Paris and going to a cafe and having a coffee was a big deal because [00:08:15] there wasn’t coffee in London. You know, there was coffee, but it wasn’t like good coffee. It [00:08:20] was just terrible coffee. Yeah. Um, and I remember we used to go and sit in a cafe [00:08:25] and have a coffee and watch the people go by, whatever. That was almost like a first thing we would do when we’d get to Paris. [00:08:30] But now London has everything, you know, like London has everything [00:08:35] you could want. And so, I dunno, Paris just didn’t change at all. And [00:08:40] over here you think it’s quite a conservative place and it doesn’t change very much. But France [00:08:45] is even more conservative. Right. I’m embarrassed. Recently I realised it hasn’t [00:08:50] changed for 30, 40 years. You know, like similar feeling in the town. Of course, [00:08:55] they do have the odd sort of, um, very avant garde stuff as well. There’s no doubt about that. So [00:09:00] London, what was your first impression? Had you been before?

Sanaa Harroussi: No.

Payman Langroudi: What was your first [00:09:05] time when you moved?

Sanaa Harroussi: First time? Yeah, when I came to visit and and my my fiance [00:09:10] back then, he made sure I really enjoyed the visit. He showed [00:09:15] me the best side of London, obviously. Um, but the equivalent in France [00:09:20] was ten times easier than passing the equivalent in England.

Payman Langroudi: The aura.

Sanaa Harroussi: The aura was [00:09:25] really, really challenging.

Payman Langroudi: And did you have to do exams in France?

Sanaa Harroussi: Um.

Payman Langroudi: I know you were [00:09:30] studying.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. To do the postgraduate as well. I had to take exams again. They were very, very selective. So [00:09:35] for every diploma, it was about 12 people. Ten, 12 people. That was it. Um, so [00:09:40] it was quite competitive as well. Um, so that’s why, uh, I [00:09:45] had a funny story where I had to pick between two diplomas. Kind of like, why didn’t you tell [00:09:50] me that if I do prosthodontics, I wouldn’t be able to do the implants diploma? [00:09:55] At the same time they said, well, people usually pass one or the other. We never had that. You’re [00:10:00] not meant to pass both. We couldn’t have that. You’re going to pass both. But I had to pick between one and [00:10:05] the other. And, uh, and the following year I had to retake the exam, which wasn’t quite annoying. [00:10:10] So I, um, so, uh, I wasn’t very happy about it. And, [00:10:15] uh, and I remember going to talk to the secretary, kind of like. But that’s not fair. Like she goes, all I can do is get you [00:10:20] to talk to the head of department. So I was kind of. Okay, I’m happy to have a meeting with the head of department, because this isn’t fair. Um, [00:10:25] so I went, had a chat, and she was like, I’m really sorry you have to retake. But if you pass last year, you definitely [00:10:30] passed. This year. I’m sure you will pass. Don’t worry. Um, but yeah. So, uh, [00:10:35] but as a result, I couldn’t do the three year postgraduate and implants just on the first year. [00:10:40] Um, because the the postgraduate diploma for [00:10:45] implants was closed in that year, so if I would have picked implants over prosthodontics, [00:10:50] I would have had the full three year diploma, but never mind.

Payman Langroudi: So in French [00:10:55] terms, you are a specialist. Prosthodontist?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: But then, does that count here? No.

Sanaa Harroussi: I [00:11:00] didn’t even try to reach. When I checked at the beginning. They said you could reach. You could if you really want to be in [00:11:05] the specialist register. But I never tried to. To be honest.

Payman Langroudi: You had to worry about first.

Sanaa Harroussi: Exactly. [00:11:10]

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about that. Because I’ve had people sitting where you’re sitting, and [00:11:15] the stories tend to be some of the hardest stories I’ve heard.

Sanaa Harroussi: I had the funniest story about. Yeah. [00:11:20] So I remember coming from Paris to London. Yeah. And I got on [00:11:25] the Eurostar and there was a lovely, heavily pregnant lady and [00:11:30] give her a smile, let her in first. And she gave me a smile. She sat there. And [00:11:35] that day, for whatever reason, I had a book about dentistry on me in my handbag. So I put it [00:11:40] out and I started having a look at it and she passed by. She was going to the toilet, she could see the book and she goes, are you [00:11:45] a dentist? I said, yes, she goes, I’m a dentist too. Are you trying to take over? It’s kind of like, yeah. Back [00:11:50] then I was learning English and I had to pass the IELTS, which was quite tough too, to be honest. Um, [00:11:55] then she goes, okay, let me give you my number. She was based in France. [00:12:00] She goes, let me give you back. Then there was a landline. People were calling people. We were using landline. No, [00:12:05] she was Indian.

Payman Langroudi: Indian.

Sanaa Harroussi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, I want to say hello to Saida. She’s the one who. [00:12:10] Who I’m talking to. Um, so, uh, she gave [00:12:15] me her phone number, and, um, so I kept it [00:12:20] in that book, um, carried on with my life. I [00:12:25] had to, uh, take a proper course on how to pass the isles. Because even to pass the isles get good grades. [00:12:30] Um, it wasn’t that easy.

Payman Langroudi: That’s kind of English for foreign students sort of thing.

Sanaa Harroussi: But you have to get good [00:12:35] grades, like seven out of nine. And, uh, and it was quite challenging, especially the lesson part was [00:12:40] quite Yet challenging because they make you listen to different accents as well, [00:12:45] which is quite funny. To make it even more complicated. Um, but even that was [00:12:50] quite competitive as well to get a good grade on it. So, uh, passed my art and I’m thinking, [00:12:55] how do I start? Um, and then I get that book and I [00:13:00] open it, and the first thing I see in her name and her number. So I’m calling her, uh, [00:13:05] and she goes, what a coincidence. I’ll be in London a few days. Let’s meet up. So we set a [00:13:10] time and a place. We met up and she guided me. She explained to me exactly what I’m meant to do, [00:13:15] which because everything is on the GDC website, but there isn’t the details that [00:13:20] you really need. Um, so. And then she showed me one place called MRC. [00:13:25] Mrc I’m not even sure if it’s still exists nowadays. Uh, it’s for migrants [00:13:30] and refugees. Okay. And people used to, like, gather once a week and, uh, they would [00:13:35] guide you. And the best thing about it was meeting all the dentists who had to take O2. [00:13:40] Um, so I met some of my best friends over there. Um, [00:13:45] and. Yeah. So as a result, I had some connections. We had [00:13:50] some friends and we could help each other guide each other. She gave me as well, a list of books that I’m meant to read. [00:13:55] So that’s how my journey had started with.

Payman Langroudi: Well, for someone who doesn’t know, what does Ori [00:14:00] comprise of? Like how many exams? How many?

Sanaa Harroussi: So it’s two parts. The part one is mainly about theory. [00:14:05] You’ve got part A and B, and it’s mainly Mcqs but the answers are so close and [00:14:10] the passing rate is so low.

Payman Langroudi: But is it negative marking as well?

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, I’m not quite sure about [00:14:15] that.

Payman Langroudi: You know what I mean?

Sanaa Harroussi: But yes, if you give the wrong answer, you get.

Payman Langroudi: Minus.

Sanaa Harroussi: One. I’m not sure, [00:14:20] but it was. The passing rate was like 37% when I, when I passed. Wow. So it’s really, [00:14:25] really tough. Um, so the first part was just theory. Part [00:14:30] two was more you had to do, um, um, [00:14:35] it was funny. I had a monkey in my loft that I named Salim. I even [00:14:40] named him. And I used to spend three hours every single day training on my aura. Literally [00:14:45] three hours every day. And I had to build up my speed.

Payman Langroudi: Did you bring that from France?

Sanaa Harroussi: No, [00:14:50] I bought.

Payman Langroudi: It from eBay.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah, well, I bought it from eBay. Well, I had [00:14:55] a light. I had the drill. I had everything compressed.

Payman Langroudi: Practice on this.

Sanaa Harroussi: Little room to practice. [00:15:00] Literally, I don’t I didn’t take anything lightly. I had to pass and I had to pass for the first time. Because [00:15:05] if you if you then fail, you’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Only got a certain number of.

Sanaa Harroussi: Four [00:15:10] chances in your whole life. But if you really fail, it’s going to really compromise your self-confidence, which [00:15:15] I would, you know, that would make it more nerve wracking. It was already tough enough. Yeah. So I [00:15:20] was kind of like, I’m gonna invest myself. Um, so that’s all I was doing [00:15:25] just every single day. Uh, especially between parts one and part two. Before parts one, [00:15:30] there was a bit of a waiting list, so it did give me plenty of time to pass my oils to prepare for part one. [00:15:35] I had like literally a year for that. But between part one and part two, it’s only a few months and you [00:15:40] have to be really prepared for the exam.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, and what do you have to do? Like a crown prep or something?

Sanaa Harroussi: So there was crown [00:15:45] prep, uh, cavities and all, uh, [00:15:50] like root canal, uh, access and prep. What else? Even the [00:15:55] way you fit the matrix band and the way you put the wedge, everything has to be perfect, basically. And, uh, and the main [00:16:00] thing is the timing. You have to finish all the tasks in a limited amount of time, and everything has [00:16:05] to be perfect. Passing rate for the second part was 25%, which means you have to be one of the best. It’s [00:16:10] not just doing a good prep, it’s one of the best preps, which makes it more challenging.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: Um. [00:16:15] What else?

Payman Langroudi: So did you pass it?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. First. First time? Both of them. Oh, really? [00:16:20] Yeah. It was like.

Payman Langroudi: First person I’ve heard has ever said that. Yeah. So. [00:16:25] So then you felt great.

Sanaa Harroussi: Felt amazing. It was like a dream coming true. I remember I was in [00:16:30] France. Uh, there was, uh, similar to clinical innovation here. It was, like, kind of similar [00:16:35] in France. And it was like lots of us. And they had just passed their exam. They had just found out [00:16:40] that they passed their exam. They were allowed to practice in Paris, and I passed my aura. We all kind [00:16:45] of passed at the same year. So they were kind of like, oh, that’s amazing. We should keep in touch. Unfortunately we didn’t. I [00:16:50] only kept in touch with my very close friends from from Rabat, and I’m still in touch with them till now. Um, [00:16:55] but most of my friends are dentists. Oh, that’s what I noticed. Most of them. [00:17:00] Um. So. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So now. So now you’re. You’re [00:17:05] married? No. Kids?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Is that right? No kids at this point?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes. [00:17:10]

Payman Langroudi: And now what? Find a job? Yes. Was that the idea?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. So I started with [00:17:15] the BJ. Yeah. Um, looking for jobs and stuff, and, uh, literally my [00:17:20] first job offer. So I remember the first interview I had, and they lived kind of like your. Your profile [00:17:25] is amazing. That’s it. I didn’t even have any other interview. You are the one. I’m so pleased [00:17:30] with you. That’s it. You’re hired. And kind of like I was happy, but at the same time, it’s going to be Swiss Sussex.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:17:35] Sussex.

Sanaa Harroussi: West.

Payman Langroudi: Sussex, West Sussex.

Sanaa Harroussi: So my husband was working in the city [00:17:40] back then, so for him it means he has to take a train and can take him two hours door to door and there [00:17:45] aren’t that many trains as well. But he was like so kind of supportive. He was like, don’t worry, be fine. And she was [00:17:50] amazing. It was an Iranian dentist, lovely lady. And she said, don’t worry about it. You could even [00:17:55] have the she had a flat above the practice because you can stay there until you get yourself [00:18:00] settled. Don’t you worry, just focus on work. It’s kind of like, okay, amazing. So I came home, we were celebrating, [00:18:05] but at the same time I had that weird feeling inside. It’s kind of like I’m not sure it’s the right decision. I’m not sure. Then [00:18:10] on Monday, she’s called me to say, I’m really sorry. I’ve just checked and it’s going to take forever to take you to get your performance [00:18:15] and it’s going to take. And I need someone who needs to start ASAP. So I’m really sorry. Um, I can’t [00:18:20] hire you. And deep inside, I was kind of like, it’s a bit of a relief because I didn’t really want to move that [00:18:25] far.

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, and then I’m having a chat with my [00:18:30] sister, and she goes, why don’t you just try to just [00:18:35] call the local practices in your neighbourhood? I was kind of like, I don’t think so. [00:18:40] I don’t think I don’t think that’s how it works. She goes, you have nothing to lose. Just try the [00:18:45] next day. I remember my uncle knocking at the door and he goes, [00:18:50] like, we’ve just received that list because I’ve told him what she has told me. And he goes, we just received that [00:18:55] list. It’s the list of all the NHS practices in the neighbourhood. It’s including dental practice. So it [00:19:00] was all the list with phone number and email and everything. So he goes, [00:19:05] why don’t you just try it? I mean, it’s a sign he came through the door by post. I [00:19:10] don’t know why they posted that leaflet anyway, but it had exactly what I needed. I didn’t even need to do any [00:19:15] much research. There was a name of the practice, the address and the phone number. So I started calling them and [00:19:20] I had quite like five practices that were hiring literally in my neighbourhood.

Payman Langroudi: Because no one wants to be an [00:19:25] NHS dentist these days. Right. How long ago was this?

Sanaa Harroussi: That was 15. Even even even, um. [00:19:30] Now it’s even worse.

Payman Langroudi: 15 years.

Sanaa Harroussi: Ago. 15 years ago? Yeah. Back then, it wasn’t [00:19:35] as bad. Now it’s. Nobody wants to work on it, to be honest. Um, so. Yeah. [00:19:40] Um.

Payman Langroudi: So five.

Sanaa Harroussi: Of them. But I had zero experience in the UK back then. So, um. [00:19:45]

Payman Langroudi: Were they corporates, any of them or.

Sanaa Harroussi: Were they all? I think most of them were family [00:19:50] practices. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: So you took one of those jobs.

Sanaa Harroussi: So exactly. And [00:19:55] then, um, so, uh, I’ve spoken to a few of them, and then one of them [00:20:00] had, uh, the receptionist called me back and she said, well, uh, [00:20:05] I’ve got your number. The principal wants to meet you, my current principal, and I go, [00:20:10] yes, sure. How long would it take you to be here? After ten minutes, she goes, are you sure? She goes, yeah, yeah, I live down the road. So [00:20:15] I quickly changed, uh, took my CV, went to see her. She had a look at the CV. She was very happy [00:20:20] with it. And she goes, uh, when can we start? And we just started the paperwork, [00:20:25] literally. And then a few months later, I was working for her.

Payman Langroudi: And what was your. I mean, and.

Sanaa Harroussi: That [00:20:30] was walking distance.

Payman Langroudi: As a French qualified prosthodontist. Yes. [00:20:35] What was your first impression of the NHS?

Sanaa Harroussi: I was kind of like, what is [00:20:40] that like disbelief? Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And the rules and regulations? Like, [00:20:45] who explained all that to you?

Sanaa Harroussi: So before I started working though, I’ve done [00:20:50] some internship in another dental practice. So, uh.

Payman Langroudi: What, [00:20:55] nursing or something?

Sanaa Harroussi: No, no, no. In another dental practice. He was a friend of my [00:21:00] uncle. My uncle used to own a restaurant. And across the road there was a dentist. Um, his [00:21:05] name is Garth. Very, very supportive. Um, I’d like to say hello to him [00:21:10] if he’s listening. Um, and, uh, I managed to do my internship [00:21:15] at his practice, so for a good four months, I used to just go and watch, uh, so [00:21:20] it was a bit of fun.

Payman Langroudi: Um, was that an NHS?

Sanaa Harroussi: Uh, it was a mixed practice. Yes. Yes. [00:21:25]

Payman Langroudi: So you kind of got your head.

Sanaa Harroussi: I kind of knew how it works. Yeah. So when I joined my first job, [00:21:30] I knew how it works. Like, even stuff, like how to do referral letter and everything. How the NHS works. [00:21:35] Yes. So which made it a bit easier for me because I knew how the NHS works.

Payman Langroudi: The whole note [00:21:40] writing nightmare that every dentist has to go through. That must have been a [00:21:45] shock. Yeah. The detail you have to write. Exactly. Different to France, I bet. [00:21:50]

Sanaa Harroussi: Very different. Very different.

Payman Langroudi: And what about patients? [00:21:55] I mean, what’s a French patient? I had some French patients.

Sanaa Harroussi: Very difficult.

Payman Langroudi: I found French [00:22:00] patients very difficult.

Sanaa Harroussi: Very demanding.

Payman Langroudi: Hypochondriac, very demanding, very [00:22:05] demanding.

Sanaa Harroussi: It has to be excellent.

Payman Langroudi: So German patients I found amazing. Like, amazing. [00:22:10] They would just sit back. Doc, you know best. Whatever you say that. Yes, absolutely. Very compliant [00:22:15] French patients I found tough.

Sanaa Harroussi: You have to make sure everything is perfect. Like the expectation.

Payman Langroudi: Lots [00:22:20] of questions and very high expectations. Yes. So the British patient. Not so hard [00:22:25] compared to the French.

Sanaa Harroussi: Easier, I would.

Payman Langroudi: Say. Yeah, yeah I bet. Yeah. So [00:22:30] okay.

Sanaa Harroussi: I’m quite I’m quite hard on myself. So whatever work I try to do, I really try my [00:22:35] best to do the best I can. Definitely. And sometimes it’s even good. I want once more. I always [00:22:40] want more. I always want to improve myself. Yeah, but I’m not sure if it’s a good thing because I’m a bit too tough on myself. [00:22:45] Like always pushing myself to.

Payman Langroudi: Good and a bad thing, isn’t it? Like everything else, there’s good and bad [00:22:50] in it. But but, you know, being a good dentist, I mean it. It’s as much [00:22:55] to do with the way you talk to the patient or the way you listen [00:23:00] to the patient as it is to do with your matrix band. Right? You know, and it’s [00:23:05] important to bear that in mind. You know, that. I mean, I remember some of my bosses charming, [00:23:10] charming, charming guy. But, you know, the [00:23:15] matrix band wasn’t wasn’t great. Um, and the opposite [00:23:20] as well, you know, technically brilliant dentists who just couldn’t talk to patients [00:23:25] properly.

Sanaa Harroussi: A good balance.

Payman Langroudi: Between you need both. You need both, especially when people are scared. [00:23:30] Right. And that’s important to bear in mind. People are scared. More than half are [00:23:35] frightened when they’re in the room. And we forget that. You know, I only remembered [00:23:40] it now when I became a patient, you know, had a feeling it was a scary experience. You [00:23:45] know, even even when you know everything that’s going on.

Sanaa Harroussi: I think it’s worse when you know what’s happening. Maybe the least, [00:23:50] you know, the better off you are.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe. Maybe you’re right. So how long did you stay there?

Sanaa Harroussi: Uh, [00:23:55] were.

Payman Langroudi: You still there?

Sanaa Harroussi: This job? Well, for the last 15 years.

Payman Langroudi: You’re [00:24:00] still there in the same place. Oh, wow.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So do I. Take it you don’t like [00:24:05] change? Um.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:24:10] when did you have children in that journey?

Sanaa Harroussi: So, um. I [00:24:15] would say two years after I started working. Exactly two years afterwards, [00:24:20] I had my first son. Um, he’s 12 now. Time flies.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: So. [00:24:25] And then back then, my husband got a job in, um, around Asia. He had to be head in Asia, so [00:24:30] he was travelling a lot all over Asia. So had the best maternity leave ever. I got to travel [00:24:35] most of Asia. Just name it. And that baby, aged six months, had visited like nine different countries. [00:24:40] We were so well travelled.

Payman Langroudi: And you said he’s in it?

Sanaa Harroussi: No no, no. He’s 12 now. [00:24:45]

Payman Langroudi: No, no. What does your husband do?

Sanaa Harroussi: Oh, no. He works in marketing. He was a marketing director. Marketing? [00:24:50] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So you had a year travelling around Asia? Yes. And then. [00:24:55]

Sanaa Harroussi: Six months. I mean, I had six months maternity leave.

Payman Langroudi: And then back to London.

Sanaa Harroussi: And then back to London.

Payman Langroudi: And then [00:25:00] to part time after that.

Sanaa Harroussi: No. Carried on working Monday to Saturday. Believe it or not, I’m a workaholic. [00:25:05]

Payman Langroudi: So a nanny?

Sanaa Harroussi: Uh, yes. Uh, we had help, but [00:25:10] we had as well. Uh, my mother in law had retired that year, luckily for me. So, [00:25:15] uh, I had quite a bit of support with my mum and my mother in law. Um, and then full time nursery, [00:25:20] bless him.

Payman Langroudi: What are your feelings around, you know, like wanting [00:25:25] it all.

Sanaa Harroussi: Wanting it all. That’s me. That’s totally me. I want it all.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but do you agree? [00:25:30] It’s impossible.

Sanaa Harroussi: As much as you can of each.

Payman Langroudi: But no, no, I mean, look, [00:25:35] I want it all. Yeah. Yes. But I’m not a woman. Yeah. So I don’t have two children. [00:25:40] Yes. But one. It all could mean anything, right? You could say, hey, want it all? Could be [00:25:45] owning 100 practices. Yeah, yeah. You haven’t done that? Yeah. So [00:25:50] what is it? What are the limits of wanting it all? Okay, I want to career. I [00:25:55] want a husband. I want children and all that. What gives? Something [00:26:00] gives.

Sanaa Harroussi: Well, I tried to take time after. [00:26:05] Out of all of this, uh, my secret to cope with all of that, [00:26:10] I try to. Once a year, I go for retreat. Oh, really? For a long [00:26:15] weekend. And I have my me time with myself. With a friend. Yeah. [00:26:20]

Payman Langroudi: Like way.

Sanaa Harroussi: So, um, so the idea came from one of my best friends. [00:26:25] Um, uh, let me tell you more about my second. [00:26:30]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, second.

Sanaa Harroussi: Kid. My second kid.

Payman Langroudi: So how many years later was that?

Sanaa Harroussi: So four years later. [00:26:35] So I had like, three years to settle everything down. Had a second child, um, [00:26:40] decided to give the second child, give birth in Morocco. So it was kind of. We’ll get more family [00:26:45] support. Let me spend that six months back home. Yeah. Just I will get more support with for the [00:26:50] elder son. And I wanted him to go to I wanted him to learn French because my eldest son was only speaking English back then. [00:26:55] Um, and we thought if we take him to nursery back home in Morocco, he will get to [00:27:00] learn how to speak French fluently, because we wanted to put him in French school. So, uh, gave [00:27:05] birth. And I remember the petition telling me, oh, you’re so lucky you’ve got such a lovely [00:27:10] baby. Perfectly healthy. Um, and then I remember my sister when he was about [00:27:15] five weeks, they came to visit and they met him. The first thing they said, your baby is floppy. And it’s kind of like, no, [00:27:20] it was total denial. Couldn’t see it. He was only five weeks for me. He [00:27:25] looked normal. And she goes, no, no, you should get him checked. He looks floppy. [00:27:30] Um, and then the following week, um, my, [00:27:35] uh, elder son had tonsillitis, a bit of temperature, and I had to take him to penetration. [00:27:40] So, uh. And I took the baby with me, so my dad took [00:27:45] me. Got to the paediatrician. She’s checking the elder son. She goes, yeah, he needs some antibiotics. [00:27:50] And I say, would you mind just checking the baby? Because my sister keeps saying that she’s a bit floppy, [00:27:55] and I’m not quite sure.

Sanaa Harroussi: And, um. And she had a look, and I remember she took a little hammer and she was checking [00:28:00] on, like, hitting his knee just to see if there is anything wrong with him. Any [00:28:05] response? And she goes like, no, he is. No, your sister’s absolutely right. You need to get him [00:28:10] checked. And then there was a huge series of exams that same day. Now, [00:28:15] the good thing about, uh, medical treatment in Morocco is everything is happening fast. [00:28:20] So she called a cardiologist that she knew. She she sent him straight away. We checked [00:28:25] the heart. Everything is normal. Chest x ray. No problem with the breathing. Then they’ve done, [00:28:30] um, some, um, MRI. Everything normal. She goes, oh, we have to see. [00:28:35] You have to see your paediatrician. And, uh, so that was on a Monday. [00:28:40] On Wednesday, I was seen by the neuro paediatrician. She literally prioritised. She got a couple of phone calls [00:28:45] from from paediatrician and from another friend of ours who’s a doctor, and they were kind of like, please, they don’t have [00:28:50] much time. And if he could just speed everything up. So by Wednesday [00:28:55] we would know paediatrician and she goes, I think he has spinal [00:29:00] muscular atrophy condition that I’ve never heard about. So I thought, okay, um, so, [00:29:05] uh, after that, uh, we had to [00:29:10] get some tests done and the results came after a week [00:29:15] which did confirm that he has spinal muscular atrophy, which means life expectancy of six months. [00:29:20]

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Sanaa Harroussi: So, yeah, we brought him back to London and we went to the GP [00:29:25] and tried to get referral done. Luckily we had diagnosis. Everything was [00:29:30] done. Um, so. Yeah. Um, and then we started looking at [00:29:35] clinical trials and, um, he was referred to Great Ormond Street. Amazing [00:29:40] hospital.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: Provided amazing care. Um, but [00:29:45] they had the clinical trial was not up and running in London yet. However, it was in Paris. [00:29:50] Um, so one of my best friends came to visit me. She. She’s a dentist, [00:29:55] too. She used to be my next door neighbour back home. The funny thing. Literally next door neighbour. Um. [00:30:00] We studied dentistry together in Rabat, and she did her postgraduate in France too. So she came to visit [00:30:05] and she goes, oh, how does it work for the clinical trial? Well, the funny thing is it says the hospital [00:30:10] is called Salpetriere, which is the hospital where we were doing our postgraduates. She goes, okay, [00:30:15] let me speak to my, uh, to my boss. He might know him and he can get some info for [00:30:20] you. So that was over the weekend. So Monday she’s calling me and she goes like, oh, I [00:30:25] got some info. They’re taking patients. You can bring your son.

Payman Langroudi: For the trial. [00:30:30]

Sanaa Harroussi: For the clinical trial. So, uh, so it was amazing. So I emailed [00:30:35] him. I’m just waiting for the answer. And literally he emailed me back late in [00:30:40] that same evening, and, uh, I thought, I’m like, however, I want the clinical trial to start [00:30:45] in France, but I want to carry on. I want to carry on the treatment, uh, in London [00:30:50] once it’s up and running at Great Ormond Street. Um, so he spoke to the other [00:30:55] team and they, they found an agreement. So it was a miracle. It was [00:31:00] dream coming true. And I managed to put him into clinical trial. And then after that, lots of families did the same. They [00:31:05] started taking their kids all the way to Paris for the treatment until it started in the UK. And [00:31:10] until now, he’s still alive.

Payman Langroudi: So I mean, what was going through your head? Were you.

Sanaa Harroussi: Uh. [00:31:15] Well, I had to fight for him, basically. Anyhow, if [00:31:20] there is no treatment, then let’s check clinical trials. It was a risk because it’s a clinical trial. But I [00:31:25] know that that treatment was up and running in the US. Uh, but that’s the only treatment that really [00:31:30] keeping him alive. He will never have a normal life. He will always be disabled. But I’m okay with that. Um, [00:31:35] just giving him the best quality of life he can have.

Payman Langroudi: So did you go into, like, deep research [00:31:40] mode yourself? Like, just trying to find out everything you could.

Sanaa Harroussi: And try to get in touch with other [00:31:45] special needs mom, with kids with the same condition who were guiding me what to do next. Um, [00:31:50] and then whatever treatment he would need next, whatever surgery he would need next. Um, [00:31:55] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And he’s eight now.

Sanaa Harroussi: He’s eight. Yes. And so. Correct. [00:32:00]

Payman Langroudi: So when you say he’ll be disabled.

Sanaa Harroussi: Like he can’t walk, he’s always wheelchair. [00:32:05] Yeah, yeah. It affects all the muscles of the body. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And what was the treatment [00:32:10] that that.

Sanaa Harroussi: So it’s a new treatment. Uh, so with that neuromuscular [00:32:15] condition, it affects the way the signal comes from the brain to the muscle to ask the muscle to move. [00:32:20] So, uh, the it’s like a treatment. He has to have an injection [00:32:25] on his spine. It’s a bit like the epidural. Mhm. But he has to have that medication every four [00:32:30] months for the rest of his life. Mhm. So once every four months he gets the injection done with whatever molecule [00:32:35] that is missing to.

Payman Langroudi: Can you move at all.

Sanaa Harroussi: Oh he can move. Yeah. He can move his [00:32:40] hand. If you give him an iPad you’d be very impressed about the way he can.

Payman Langroudi: Swipe. [00:32:45]

Sanaa Harroussi: It. Yeah. We had friends visiting last weekend and their daughter [00:32:50] was just amazed about the way he was using his his iPad and how quickly he could, you know, [00:32:55] he was like, I don’t want to be rude, but I didn’t realise how clever he was. But when you see him [00:33:00] using his iPad, wow. It’s impressive. And he could screen mirror it. Especially if, like, daddy’s watching [00:33:05] TV and he’s on his iPad watching cartoons and he wants to annoy him. And like, it would be [00:33:10] like, you know, when you’re just waiting for the goal is coming. And then he would scream cartoons [00:33:15] on the TV. Yeah, he’s extremely clever.

Payman Langroudi: And your day to day, I mean, does he go to a normal school?

Sanaa Harroussi: He goes to a special [00:33:20] school.

Payman Langroudi: A special.

Sanaa Harroussi: School? Yeah. Yeah, we’ve got great support. We’ve got his uh, we’ve got, [00:33:25] uh, like carers helping with him.

Payman Langroudi: Who visit every day and.

Sanaa Harroussi: Every day they [00:33:30] take him to school. Um, he has a school transport as well. Um, yeah. [00:33:35] And he has an overnight carer as well who’s watching him while he’s asleep.

Payman Langroudi: And what goes through your mind [00:33:40] about the future with him?

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, I don’t take life for granted anymore. [00:33:45] You have to take it one day at a time, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. I remember one of my best friends. [00:33:50] Um, she came to visit him at the hospital, and [00:33:55] back then he was in intensive care, and he was really sick. And she goes, that’s really sad. You know, it’s heartbreaking. [00:34:00] And, um, a few years later, last year, she got cancer [00:34:05] and she passed away within eight months. Wow. So you never know who’s gonna. [00:34:10] You know.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s changed you in that way?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes. Yeah. [00:34:15] You really have to just enjoy life and take it one day at a time.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:34:20] important. I mean, it’s funny because I find when when [00:34:25] things go wrong in your life, the best way to deal with it is to kind of [00:34:30] have gratitude for.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah, I’m appreciating health a lot.

Payman Langroudi: But gratitude for what [00:34:35] you do have.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes. And when I had my third child, I was grateful for every tiny [00:34:40] bit.

Payman Langroudi: Was it a third child?

Sanaa Harroussi: A third son after that, four years later. So every four years. [00:34:45] But I’m done now. Uh, so I wanted [00:34:50] my elder son to have a sibling he could play with who could run after him, who could, you know. And so together [00:34:55] they play football together.

Payman Langroudi: So they have a four year old as well.

Sanaa Harroussi: I’ve got a four year old.

Payman Langroudi: Wow. You [00:35:00] are busy. Yes, you are busy. And you still work full time?

Sanaa Harroussi: I work, [00:35:05] uh, four days. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: No. I think I think you should go [00:35:10] down to, like, two days would be perfect for you.

Sanaa Harroussi: Maybe one day.

Payman Langroudi: Well, [00:35:15] I’ve done one day. You know, I’ve done everything. I’ve done. One day, two days, four days, five days. I haven’t done six. Um, [00:35:20] but one day I did for about five years. And it’s [00:35:25] incorrect. It’s just not right. You just.

Sanaa Harroussi: I think to the minimum.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not there enough. Yeah. To [00:35:30] give a damn, you know, like, let’s say the nurse does something wrong or something’s [00:35:35] up with your loops or something. You’re just like, you look at your watch and you’re [00:35:40] like, you’re going to be out of here in two hours time, and then it’s all over. You know, it’s just it’s not the right rhythm. [00:35:45] Whereas I find two days plus a hobby or in your case, you know.

Sanaa Harroussi: I’m addicted [00:35:50] to dentistry. That’s the problem. I enjoy dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Two days is good, two.

Sanaa Harroussi: Days is good, two days. And I could [00:35:55] do courses or something of the week. But it has to be dentistry. I know.

Payman Langroudi: Two days plus another [00:36:00] business, let’s say. Yeah, like some people do property or whatever. In your case, just two days. Plus [00:36:05] your mother. You’ve got enough on your plate. On your plate. Or two days. Plus yoga, if you want. Yeah. [00:36:10] It’s. What I’m saying is two days is kind of this hobby dentistry? Yeah. Three days. If [00:36:15] it’s like you have to earn like, you know, and I think, you know, five [00:36:20] days is incorrect. Like, you really shouldn’t do five days. It’s a mistake at [00:36:25] a higher level of dentistry I think for 3 or 2 is correct. [00:36:30] But then they have to be good days, right? They have to be important days. Days that you, you [00:36:35] know, you produce um, or days that you want to do stuff, the kind of [00:36:40] dentistry you want to do. Right. And so, you know, in your case, you have to [00:36:45] you have to do the pros, you know, put the pros into practice. Um, [00:36:50] and that’s the, the fire in your belly that I saw in [00:36:55] many smile makeover. You need to do that kind of work I think definitely [00:37:00] it’s interesting interesting question, man, Amount that you’re managing all of that with [00:37:05] a massive smile on your face.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes, I’m an optimistic person. I always take take everything positively. [00:37:10]

Payman Langroudi: Would you say that was the darkest day, though, when when you found out [00:37:15] about your.

Sanaa Harroussi: The saddest day of my life? Yes. The [00:37:20] diagnosis. Because you know that your life will never be the same.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: Neither [00:37:25] before and days after. But it made me stronger.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: And that resilience. That boy has such resilience [00:37:30] like he. The first year was the hardest. Now he’s absolutely fine. Now he’s very, [00:37:35] very stable. Uh, but the first year, um, and you see how thick [00:37:40] he would be, but he still kind of. He’s such a tough cookie. He’s [00:37:45] really, really resilient. And he’s, like, fighting with all his heart. So when you see [00:37:50] him like that, fighting that hard, you have to, you know, you have to be supportive. You have to help him.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:37:55] think kids end up teaching you as much as you teach them.

Sanaa Harroussi: From.

Payman Langroudi: Him in all kids, you know? I [00:38:00] mean, he’s a special case, right? Yeah, but all kids, you think you’re going to teach them, but [00:38:05] you actually do learn a lot from from them because they haven’t got the bullshit that we have as an [00:38:10] adult. You know, you end up your your basic childish sort of hopes and dreams [00:38:15] get polluted so much as you, as you grow up. Um, and kids still have that, right? They [00:38:20] still have it. Tell me about your career goals now, then. [00:38:25]

Sanaa Harroussi: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Are you going to continue going on every course you find?

Sanaa Harroussi: And I [00:38:30] really enjoy it. Really, really enjoy taking courses. Um. I find [00:38:35] it fun. It’s like going back to uni, in a way. Yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But something different from the [00:38:40] day to day.

Sanaa Harroussi: But I like to improve myself. And, um.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:38:45] did this come from with this, this sort of, um, obsessive improvement [00:38:50] thing?

Sanaa Harroussi: I’m not sure.

Payman Langroudi: Like, were you that child [00:38:55] from.

Sanaa Harroussi: I probably got it from my mum. My mum is a perfectionist. She wants everything to be perfect. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: You would [00:39:00] like that as a child, even?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes. Really? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t remember [00:39:05] a time when you weren’t that.

Sanaa Harroussi: Since I was a child, to be honest, [00:39:10] I’ve always tried to improve myself. I would always have, like, [00:39:15] it’s like a PDP in place personal development plan.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:39:20] then what’s the downside of being that person? If [00:39:25] something isn’t perfect, does it drive you crazy? No.

Sanaa Harroussi: No, I’m all right. But [00:39:30] the downside is I can be a bit too tough on myself. But lately, [00:39:35] I’m trying to kind of be more gentle with myself, give myself a tap in the back and [00:39:40] say. And just think you’re doing your best, and that’s enough. Yeah, yeah. [00:39:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, it’s a problem. It’s a disease of women generally that [00:39:50] they really don’t give themselves a break. Yeah. I’ve noticed. Um, and [00:39:55] this is why I was asking you about having it all, because it’s so difficult to have it. All right. [00:40:00]

Sanaa Harroussi: The retreat is good. Where’d you go? So last year, I went to Ibiza. [00:40:05] Oh, it was amazing. Uh, so it was just all about meditation and [00:40:10] yoga.

Payman Langroudi: Do you do that anyway?

Sanaa Harroussi: Uh, I do Pilates at [00:40:15] least twice a week when I can. Three times a week. It’s great for the backache. I don’t have [00:40:20] that much backache. Since I’ve started Pilates and the loops. These two things combined together did help a lot. Um, [00:40:25] so. Yeah. And then going for retreat. Just for a long weekend. But it makes a huge [00:40:30] difference. You come back really refreshed.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk clinical now. What’s [00:40:35] what’s your favourite kind of treatment?

Sanaa Harroussi: What I would say. Bonding.

Payman Langroudi: Bonding. Really?

Sanaa Harroussi: I love it. [00:40:40] I just love the result and the look on the face of the patient when they hold the mirror.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:40:45] but, I mean, that doesn’t have to be bonding, right? That could be veneers or whatever, like, you.

Sanaa Harroussi: Know, but even, [00:40:50] like.

Payman Langroudi: Sculpt it yourself. You like to actually make the tooth yourself a [00:40:55] bit of an artist.

Sanaa Harroussi: Building it up from from scratch. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: But don’t you find with bonding that the [00:41:00] result doesn’t last very long?

Sanaa Harroussi: So it’s a balance, and it depends on [00:41:05] the patients with heavy smokers.

Payman Langroudi: And the dentist. Right? Yes. True. True. [00:41:10] Um, but it’s very unforgiving work. That’s the thing. It is [00:41:15] bonding.

Sanaa Harroussi: A tiny little, like, air bubble can just mess up the whole thing. Yeah. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:41:20] But if you think about. We like to talk about mistakes on this pod.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes. [00:41:25]

Payman Langroudi: Clinical mistakes.

Sanaa Harroussi: I’ve got a quite funny one.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind when I say clinical? [00:41:30] Clinical error.

Sanaa Harroussi: Uh, so I had, uh, that was about 15 years [00:41:35] ago or 14 years ago, um.

Payman Langroudi: In the.

Sanaa Harroussi: Uk. In the UK was quite nervous, patient. [00:41:40] And I’m just about to do basic thing as cementing an inlay. Um, [00:41:45] and the patient started panicking, literally pulled out my hand and swallowed the inlay. [00:41:50]

Payman Langroudi: And he pulled your hand out?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes. She pulled my hand out, and.

Payman Langroudi: Then you dropped it.

Sanaa Harroussi: And [00:41:55] swallowed it. I was trying it on. I’m just trying if it fits well before cementing it. And she [00:42:00] just.

Payman Langroudi: Happened. She was nervous or something.

Sanaa Harroussi: She had a bit of a gag as well. So literally pull out my hand, swallowed [00:42:05] it and I had to send her for chest x ray. So yeah, that was not fun. [00:42:10]

Payman Langroudi: So what you sent to the hospital?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah, I had to send her to the hospital for chest [00:42:15] x ray to make sure it didn’t go in the airway. No, it wasn’t stomach. It was fine.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:42:20] happened then?

Sanaa Harroussi: I can’t remember, I think I fitted the Fuji for her back then, [00:42:25] like temporary.

Payman Langroudi: Did she?

Sanaa Harroussi: I think I referred her to. I think she was seen [00:42:30] afterwards by another dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Did she kind of take the blame for it, or was she blaming you?

Sanaa Harroussi: She didn’t [00:42:35] blame me. Of course she knows. It’s not my fault. It was quite traumatic. I think it was taken over by another [00:42:40] dentist afterward.

Payman Langroudi: What about a a treatment that went wrong [00:42:45] in some way? Like did you learn something?

Sanaa Harroussi: So I learned that day I better put [00:42:50] a rubber dam rubber down. That’s I learned that day. Um, Uh.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, from, [00:42:55] from a treatment modality kind of perspective, you know, like, sometimes you do something a [00:43:00] certain way until you see it fail. I mean, 15 years in the same practice, you must [00:43:05] have seen your own work fail a few times. Right? So where is [00:43:10] that kind of comeback and made you think? Think about, oh, I’m going to do things slightly differently [00:43:15] because a lot of people don’t have that privilege. Right? To see.

Sanaa Harroussi: Their own.

Payman Langroudi: Because they move [00:43:20] around so much. What comes to mind when I say that?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. [00:43:25] Using rubber dam makes a big difference, to be honest. Overall, when it [00:43:30] comes to longevity of of uh, of of feelings, for instance, using [00:43:35] the right lab does help to.

Payman Langroudi: The right lab. Yeah. Huge. Huge. [00:43:40] When you use the right lab, you feel like a brilliant dentist. True. And when you use a bad lab, you feel [00:43:45] like a terrible dentist. Yes. And sometimes it’s not you, you know, sometimes it is the lab.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah, sometimes [00:43:50] it is the lab. And the worst thing is when they deny it. You know, if they apologise, it’s okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:43:55] well I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t blame like it’s not. It’s not like who’s going to take the blame.

Sanaa Harroussi: But we [00:44:00] work as a team but yeah yeah, yeah. But some labs, they just wouldn’t, um, [00:44:05] wouldn’t take your feedback to learn from it. I’m not giving you the feedback just to criticise. [00:44:10] We want to move on together. Um, when when I see that I’m giving a proper feedback [00:44:15] and they kind of denying it all, not even trying to see where is the problem. You [00:44:20] know, you might need to change the lab. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What aspect of the job do you hate? [00:44:25]

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, what [00:44:30] aspect of the job? I hate working in the stress overall.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:44:35]

Sanaa Harroussi: Working under pressure because that [00:44:40] can push you to make mistakes.

Payman Langroudi: Time pressure.

Sanaa Harroussi: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Did you have that [00:44:45] issue that you’re like, for instance, NHS you can’t give the time?

Sanaa Harroussi: Uh, no, usually I do give [00:44:50] the time. Even with NHS, I try to find the right balance. I don’t overbook myself, [00:44:55] but you could be more productive rather [00:45:00] than booking a patient. I’ve never been booking every ten minutes.

Payman Langroudi: So how long [00:45:05] do you spend on an average day?

Sanaa Harroussi: Half an hour per patient.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: 15 [00:45:10] minutes if it’s a fit. But usually we really take our time.

Payman Langroudi: It’s difficult running both kind [00:45:15] of both private and NHS in the same situation. Right. Either one of them [00:45:20] gets better or one of them gets worse. You know, there’s there’s it’s hard and [00:45:25] it’s hard to explain to patients. That must be the hardest bit. That’s the hardest bit.

Sanaa Harroussi: What is covered. What [00:45:30] is not covered. Which part has to be private? Which which part can be NHS? Yeah, that’s going to be.

Payman Langroudi: Changing as well. So it’s [00:45:35] difficult explaining to a patient that I’m going to take more time. It’s [00:45:40] kind of a difficult conversation to have because patients say, what do you mean like this? [00:45:45] Or I’m going to use a better material. Even that feels strange, [00:45:50] doesn’t it? Yes. So how did you negotiate that? You must. You must have figured out that conversation.

Sanaa Harroussi: Find a [00:45:55] polite way of explaining it, basically.

Payman Langroudi: What’d you say? Like, [00:46:00] how do you explain to a patient a private feeling over an NHS one? What do you say? The colour. [00:46:05]

Sanaa Harroussi: As well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: Using the word cosmetic [00:46:10] filling can help. They can understand whatever cosmetic is more private rather than NHS.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:46:15]

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, and then you offer both. But you [00:46:20] explained that that material more cosmetic is going to give more cosmetic results.

Payman Langroudi: And what [00:46:25] do you reckon that you’re going to do next. Like what. [00:46:30] Have you got a plan. You must have. Right. You’re that planner.

Sanaa Harroussi: I used to plan. [00:46:35] The thing is, I used to plan my life ten years in advance. Before I had my son. [00:46:40] My second son.

Payman Langroudi: That changed. The game.

Sanaa Harroussi: Changed. And I’m kind of like, I’m going to take it one day at [00:46:45] a time and just wait and see. Whatever life is throwing [00:46:50] at me.

Payman Langroudi: But you, for instance, do you ever plan to have your own practice?

Sanaa Harroussi: My own practice? [00:46:55] Um. I’m going to need an amazing associate’s before I can think about [00:47:00] practice. Practice by myself would be too challenging.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but you could. You could buy a practice with [00:47:05] four associates or whatever. You know, like.

Sanaa Harroussi: Possibly.

Payman Langroudi: Owning [00:47:10] your own practice, for instance, as a time constraint. Right?

Sanaa Harroussi: It’s a that’s the thing. It’s a [00:47:15] responsibility.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a responsibility.

Sanaa Harroussi: Responsibility.

Payman Langroudi: So but were you not that person [00:47:20] who was always dreaming of owning your own practice? I mean, maybe maybe your son changed that idea, right?

Sanaa Harroussi: It [00:47:25] was in my mind in the long run, but.

Payman Langroudi: Now [00:47:30] it doesn’t bother you?

Sanaa Harroussi: It doesn’t really bother me. If it happens, great. If it doesn’t, it’s okay.

Payman Langroudi: What’s [00:47:35] the best lecture you’ve ever been to?

Sanaa Harroussi: Ah. That’s [00:47:40] easy.

Payman Langroudi: Is it?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:47:45] is it Your lecture, not [00:47:50] mine. You mean Depeche?

Sanaa Harroussi: Depeche. Palmer? Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [00:47:55]

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about your post-grad lectures in France? Surely there was someone there that did something.

Sanaa Harroussi: Um. [00:48:00] Yeah. In fixed prosthodontics. We had very [00:48:05] nice ones as well. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like, have you do you ever [00:48:10] do full mouth rehab type cases?

Sanaa Harroussi: Not that many with bonding. [00:48:15] Yes. Yes. With bonding? Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Not. Not the sort [00:48:20] of full on prep.

Sanaa Harroussi: Not full on.

Payman Langroudi: Prep.

Sanaa Harroussi: But it was mainly bonding with [00:48:25] free hands.

Payman Langroudi: Aha. So even posterior as well.

Sanaa Harroussi: Oh, [00:48:30] you mean a full mouth.

Payman Langroudi: Full mouth.

Sanaa Harroussi: Okay. Um. Yeah. [00:48:35]

Payman Langroudi: You do them.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. [00:48:40]

Payman Langroudi: And digital. Have you, have you sort of gone digital yet. You haven’t.

Sanaa Harroussi: I haven’t [00:48:45] tried that yet. That would be amazing.

Payman Langroudi: That’s that’s a whole that’s a whole thing in itself, right? Like, [00:48:50] and I find, you know, with anything new. Do you, have you ever used Cerec, for instance?

Sanaa Harroussi: We [00:48:55] don’t have it at the practice, unfortunately. So that would make it so much easier. Like to just fit the crown. [00:49:00]

Payman Langroudi: You say you say that, but I was. I wasn’t a dentist long enough, right? To really get into [00:49:05] anything properly. Right. But one of our practices back in the day brought in [00:49:10] Zurich, and it was before the, you know, now it’s all super duper, right. But back then, you had [00:49:15] to put this powder, like spray powder all over the teeth and then use the scanner. [00:49:20] And the scanner was very big, huge thing. And um, it’s [00:49:25] amazing they used to let you do these things without even going on a course. My principal said, yeah, this is how [00:49:30] you do it. And I just did it. Yeah. And I remember thinking that the first five, [00:49:35] three of them weren’t as good as if I’d taken an impression. [00:49:40] Yes. Yeah. And at the time, I remember thinking, look, I’ve got this situation where I could, I could [00:49:45] take an improv game and it will be perfect. It was like an inlay or onlay inlay situation. [00:49:50] Yeah, it would be perfect. Or I could pull out the cerec and two out of five weren’t [00:49:55] great. There was like, you know, there was some sort of gap or something. You know, I went ahead and cemented [00:50:00] it in. Now, the correct thing to do would be to keep going [00:50:05] here, because the first five of anything you do isn’t great. Right. [00:50:10] And to learn it, there’s a learning curve in these situations. But if [00:50:15] you’ve got something that works, why would you even change? Right. True. But [00:50:20] then again, going forward, everything’s getting more and more digital, right? So, [00:50:25] um, enlightens impressions. Now we’re, I think, 65% [00:50:30] digital. Wow. You know, and it was only a year ago. [00:50:35] We were 50 over 50. And the year before that, it was the other way around, you know, like 40, 60 [00:50:40] in favour of impressions. So that digital sort of wave is coming. [00:50:45] And the question of when do you jump into it? Often [00:50:50] when your boss buys you the equipment. Right? Correct. Yeah. But even if you have [00:50:55] the equipment, do you use it? And do you really, you know, go for.

Sanaa Harroussi: It because you have to have enough marketing to need [00:51:00] it. Because I would cut my I would I would consider getting my own, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Scanner.

Sanaa Harroussi: Scanner if [00:51:05] there was no marketing behind. And I know that it would be used enough.

Payman Langroudi: Do you do Invisalign?

Sanaa Harroussi: I [00:51:10] do Invisalign, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do you like it?

Sanaa Harroussi: Love it.

Payman Langroudi: Do you?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah, but I like playing with the clean [00:51:15] checks. That’s fun.

Payman Langroudi: Have you been on courses for that as well?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which one? [00:51:20]

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, the one they do at, uh. You [00:51:25] know, just hands on for IPR and, uh, clean check. That was [00:51:30] fun.

Payman Langroudi: So first Invisalign, I did. Do you remember your first case? [00:51:35]

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So my first case, I went on a weekend course. They [00:51:40] didn’t even really talk about ortho very much. They just talked about how to use the Invisalign software. [00:51:45] And then next minute I’m doing an Invisalign. I honestly couldn’t believe it was [00:51:50] I was allowed to do. You know, I just couldn’t believe it. Do [00:51:55] you remember your first case? Yeah. Was it similar?

Sanaa Harroussi: It was challenging [00:52:00] case, though. I don’t know why. And it was. It was a nightmare with the scan back [00:52:05] then. Uh, I had borrowed scan, but back then they could let you use this. I [00:52:10] think it was, uh, I was having an open day, so I used the scan.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, they give you the scanner [00:52:15] for.

Sanaa Harroussi: You back then? Not anymore. Yeah. Now you have to rent the scan, I think. Yeah. Um, [00:52:20] so I used the scanner for whatever reason around the. Because he had wisdom teeth and I couldn’t [00:52:25] register the wisdom teeth. And I had to keep the scan. I had to bring back the patient the next [00:52:30] day, and I had to have the team over the phone. That’s kind of. It has to. It has to work. [00:52:35] Uh, but the patient was extremely patient. Really? Um. Managed [00:52:40] to sort it out at the end and the result was amazing. He was very, very pleased with the result. So. Yeah. [00:52:45]

Payman Langroudi: And how many have you done now? Many, many.

Sanaa Harroussi: I stopped counting. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But loads.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah, [00:52:50] quite. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So explain to me the clinch situation. How often do you, do [00:52:55] you end up accepting the one that they send. Never.

Sanaa Harroussi: Oh no I always know I’ll always. Now it’s [00:53:00] different because you can get as well some support either from the technician or [00:53:05] from someone from the clinical team.

Payman Langroudi: Of Invisalign.

Sanaa Harroussi: Of Invisalign. So it’s quite [00:53:10] handy. You just call them and the technicians over the phone like within, like, let’s adjust this, that and you can [00:53:15] finalise it there and then, uh, but if it’s a more challenging case and you need [00:53:20] a phone call with the, with the one of, with one of the [00:53:25] orthodontists, then you can arrange a call.

Payman Langroudi: I didn’t.

Sanaa Harroussi: Know that.

Payman Langroudi: That facility.

Sanaa Harroussi: So yeah, it’s an amazing facility. [00:53:30] Yeah. And again with Invisalign a bit of perfectionist. That’s the thing. So it’s like back and forth [00:53:35] and let’s adjust this and let’s change that. Can take a bit of a time.

Payman Langroudi: Do [00:53:40] you do that thing that overcorrecting?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Important. Right?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah, [00:53:45] yeah. Sometimes, especially for the gaps. Overcorrecting can help. Yeah, but you [00:53:50] don’t have to use the aligners for the. I mean, at least you’ve got them. Yeah. [00:53:55] And then if needed, you use them. I see.

Payman Langroudi: I see, I see, I see. And what percentage of your cases end up [00:54:00] in refinement.

Sanaa Harroussi: I’d say 30%. No, no. Not always. [00:54:05] Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah, but that’s what I’m saying. I’m quite fussy when it comes to initial clincheck. [00:54:10] I wouldn’t go for it until I’m sure everything’s perfect, but.

Payman Langroudi: Obviously.

Sanaa Harroussi: I do my best to. And I [00:54:15] find that more time I spend getting a perfect clincheck the least. But it depends on one case [00:54:20] from one case to the other. Um, but yeah, I don’t rush through the the [00:54:25] clincheck to make sure I get the best result, the best results I can achieve, and then I’m [00:54:30] less likely to need refinement. But with some patients, you still need this. I want it to rotate a tiny bit more so [00:54:35] you get the fussy patients.

Payman Langroudi: Patients become fussy, don’t they?

Sanaa Harroussi: Patients?

Payman Langroudi: Yes. It’s interesting [00:54:40] because you really realise that in ortho that patients become fussier. [00:54:45] Yeah. But then I remember when my kids had ortho. Yeah. I mean, okay, we’re both of us are [00:54:50] dentists here. We both became really fussy. Like, super fussy. And [00:54:55] the weird thing about it is, the minute it’s all out, you stop even thinking about it. You don’t bother [00:55:00] with it anymore. But it’s almost like, oh, this is our one chance to get it right. And poor old, [00:55:05] the doctor told my son, I hope he’s listening. I’m so sorry, [00:55:10] doctor. I took him so many times. Um, but, [00:55:15] you know, have you tried one of the other systems or only Invisalign?

Sanaa Harroussi: No. Only Invisalign. [00:55:20]

Payman Langroudi: There’s a lot of alternatives now.

Sanaa Harroussi: Nowadays there’s loads and IPR.

Payman Langroudi: Do you do with [00:55:25] the strip or do you have a thing?

Sanaa Harroussi: I do both, I do, I do strip, I do the [00:55:30] disk as well and I do the bur depending on.

Payman Langroudi: On what on on the profile that [00:55:35] you want to achieve.

Sanaa Harroussi: Exactly. But it depends on how much IPR I need to use.

Payman Langroudi: If it’s very little, you just use [00:55:40] a what do you call it? Strip. Strip. Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: So [00:55:45] the disk is quite challenging to use. You have to make sure you’re not hurting the soft tissues. It can [00:55:50] be challenging sometimes with the discs.

Payman Langroudi: I’m sure, I’m sure.

Sanaa Harroussi: I love the discs overall. Not [00:55:55] everyone does, though for the discs because you really have to be very [00:56:00] cautious with it.

Payman Langroudi: Very gentle with it. Does it cut both sides?

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah, but you could cut even [00:56:05] the two tissues with it. That’s what you have to be careful about.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s a double sided disc though. Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:56:10] It’s amazing man. So how much of your work is that? Most of it.

Sanaa Harroussi: No, [00:56:15] I wish.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Sanaa Harroussi: No.

Payman Langroudi: How do you get those patients?

Sanaa Harroussi: Most of the [00:56:20] patients would be just recommended patient because. Or my own patient wanting [00:56:25] to go for Invisalign.

Payman Langroudi: But you do open days as well.

Sanaa Harroussi: I haven’t [00:56:30] done any for quite a while being too busy, as I think it’s just finding the time.

Payman Langroudi: So. [00:56:35] So are you in that cycle of udas and having to finish your udas on time and all [00:56:40] of that?

Sanaa Harroussi: So we tend to be overperforming rather than underperforming. Oh really? We don’t have a big contract, [00:56:45] which makes it easier, which is a good thing because it gives you more time to do more private treatment. Um. [00:56:50]

Payman Langroudi: So when you say 70 over 30, it’s the patients are NHS patients, [00:56:55] but 70% of the work you’re doing is.

Sanaa Harroussi: 70% private and 30.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but [00:57:00] they’re all NHS patients. Yeah. The majority are NHS patients.

Sanaa Harroussi: Majority NHS patients. But most of [00:57:05] the patients there do private treatments as well. They wouldn’t go for self-referral. Obviously they would prefer [00:57:10] like a private venture private crown. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Final [00:57:15] questions fantasy dinner party.

Sanaa Harroussi: Oh.

Payman Langroudi: Three [00:57:20] guests.

Sanaa Harroussi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive. Are you having. [00:57:25]

Sanaa Harroussi: Start with Elizabeth the second. The queen.

Payman Langroudi: The queen. [00:57:30] The latest queen.

Sanaa Harroussi: Elizabeth the second.

Payman Langroudi: My [00:57:35] mum doesn’t like Camilla and I call her the Queen. [00:57:40] Okay, I know she’s.

Sanaa Harroussi: The.

Payman Langroudi: Queen. Yeah, [00:57:45] the. Let’s face it, the queen is Elizabeth. Yeah. The Queen. Okay. [00:57:50]

Sanaa Harroussi: Um. And second guest, uh, Hassan [00:57:55] the second. He used to be the king of Morocco.

Payman Langroudi: Morocco? Yeah. [00:58:00] When?

Sanaa Harroussi: Um, up to 1999. Oh, yeah. That’s [00:58:05] when Mohammed the sixth. The one who was in reign now.

Payman Langroudi: Um. Huh.

Sanaa Harroussi: Um. And [00:58:10] third one, um, it’s a poet and diplomat [00:58:15] called Nizar Qabbani. He was from Syria, and, uh, [00:58:20] he was he studied law, and then he worked as a diplomat all [00:58:25] over, um, the world. So Beirut. Madrid. [00:58:30] Cairo and London as well.

Payman Langroudi: What was the.

Sanaa Harroussi: Name? Uh, Nizar.

Payman Langroudi: Nizar. [00:58:35] Kabbani.

Sanaa Harroussi: Yeah. Very famous poet. Not just a diplomat, [00:58:40] but he was a poet as well.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Sanaa Harroussi: My favourite poet.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. And the final [00:58:45] question. It’s a weird one. It’s like deathbed question. Yes. Three pieces [00:58:50] of advice for your loved ones.

Sanaa Harroussi: For my loved ones.

Payman Langroudi: For the world.

Sanaa Harroussi: Okay. [00:58:55] So live for yourself, not for others. Don’t let anyone judge you. Just [00:59:00] try to be the best version of yourself. Uh, don’t be too harsh on [00:59:05] yourself and look after yourself. Most importantly.

Payman Langroudi: Did [00:59:10] you feel like those lessons you learned a bit too late? The. Don’t be too harsh on [00:59:15] yourself and live for yourself. Yeah.

Sanaa Harroussi: That was the advice [00:59:20] that I was given by my friend who passed away last year. Oh, that was her advice. And so I learned from her [00:59:25] that part. Not. Don’t try too hard just [00:59:30] to please everyone. Do your best. And that’s it. That’s more than enough.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful, [00:59:35] beautiful place to end it. Thank you so much for coming.

Sanaa Harroussi: Thank you. Thank you [00:59:40] so.

Payman Langroudi: Much.

Sanaa Harroussi: Really a pleasure. I really enjoyed it.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Thank you.

[VOICE]: This [00:59:45] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go [00:59:50] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:59:55] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:00:00] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [01:00:05] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to [01:00:10] what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out [01:00:15] of it.

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