One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] enlightened online training to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time. Whitening underwhelms. Try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

This [00:00:25] is Dental. Leaders. The podcast where you [00:00:30] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:00:40] Solanki.

It gives me great pleasure to welcome Randeep Singh Gill [00:00:45] onto the podcast. Randeep is a young dentist whose career was cut [00:00:50] short by a neck issue. Right neck, [00:00:55] neck injury for that matter, slipped disc, a slipped disc and who kind of pivoted [00:01:00] into software for dentists. And at the beginning of that [00:01:05] interesting journey, sort of AI powered software for dentists. Lovely to have you, buddy.

Thank [00:01:10] you. Thanks for having me. Payman.

So, Randy, just tell us, where [00:01:15] were you before this happened? Like what? Which dentist were [00:01:20] you? Were you associate?

Yeah. So, I mean, I’ve been a long time associate. [00:01:25] I, um, qualified from King’s in 2009, did my PhD in Essex, [00:01:30] and kind of stayed in the same practice there for about five years. Um, and [00:01:35] then I decided, you know, I wanted to do a little bit more when on a restorative course. [00:01:40] Uh, and then went into private practice. So I’ve been, uh. Well, I was in private practice, [00:01:45] really, from about 2014, uh, until about a few weeks ago. So, [00:01:50] yeah, that’s that’s kind of my dental journey. It’s been. Yeah, I’ve been an associate, um, a long time. The practice that [00:01:55] I’ve been at, I’ve been there for 11.5 half years. So, um. Yeah. Seen it, seen it change quite a bit. [00:02:00] And, um.

And what? General dentist.

General dentist. Um, very much kind of [00:02:05] digital focussed. I mean, my, my kind of, I would say speciality was kind of cerec [00:02:10] crown. That was, I was really passionate about that and kind of got it down to a T in terms of getting a [00:02:15] crown done from start to finish. Yeah. Um, so yeah, digital dentistry really, um, really [00:02:20] kind of, um, turned me on, in fact. In fact, I loved anything digital.

And [00:02:25] you’re always interested in software and.

Yeah, I think I’ve always had a love [00:02:30] of tech. I’ve always had a love of tech. I would say, you know, um, dentistry has been my profession and, [00:02:35] um, I’ve loved every minute of it. But my kind of first love was always computers [00:02:40] and tech. I mean, I remember back as a kid, you know, when the internet was first coming in and you had these kind of analogue [00:02:45] modems and routers that you had to plug in, um, and kind of taken apart computers, putting [00:02:50] them in and messing around with the software. So I’ve always had this kind of techie, techie kind of, um, [00:02:55] outlook. And I’ve always enjoyed that.

And so do you remember wanting to go into that and [00:03:00] being pushed into dentistry?

Yeah. Well I mean as I said, it was always something I was interested in in [00:03:05] terms of computers, but back then it was something considered quite risky and quite new. [00:03:10] I mean, you know, things like Amazon will only a few years old. And I remember when we, [00:03:15] um, in our school, we, we got like the first ever course that was opened. That was [00:03:20] an A-level course actually on computing. And I was doing three sciences and I wanted to convert to that. [00:03:25] And it was all seen as very, very high risk, um.

Compared to dentistry.

Compared to dentistry. [00:03:30] So yeah. And I think, you know, coming from kind of an Asian background where a lot of us [00:03:35] are kind of we’re not told to encourage to go into something stable [00:03:40] and secure, like medicine, dentistry, law, accounting. So, yeah, I mean, I did [00:03:45] some work experience in, in medical practice, dental practices, uh, and then and I [00:03:50] was like, yeah, I know, let’s go with dentistry just because I like the hands on aspect. I [00:03:55] like the aspect as well that you were a little bit more, um, you know, autonomous [00:04:00] in terms of it’s more of a business as well. You could kind of grow that side of things. Um, and there [00:04:05] was a lot of tech in it as well, so I did, I did really, um, you know, that that my path then took me into dentistry. [00:04:10]

So the first time that the neck complaint became a complaint was [00:04:15] how many years after you qualified?

Oh, I would say it’s probably [00:04:20] been about six, 5 or 6 years after I qualified. I started [00:04:25] having kind of these nagging kind of neck pain of waking up with, with a completely [00:04:30] stiff neck and kind of tingling down my arm and fingers and, you know, like, I [00:04:35] think that’s probably one of my one of the biggest regrets is I kind of didn’t listen to my body soon [00:04:40] enough, and I kind of ignored the signs that things were kind of breaking down a little bit. Yeah. [00:04:45] And I think as a lot of dentists do, you know, we we want to kind of push on and we prioritise [00:04:50] our patients. We don’t let our patients down, our team down, our family down. There’s a lot of people depending on [00:04:55] us. So I just pushed through it. You know, painkillers and a little bit of stretching. And usually it would it would go away. Yeah. [00:05:00] And I didn’t really kind of, you know, try and focus on why that’s [00:05:05] happening. You know. Was it the posture, was it the equipment I was using. Um, so yeah. And [00:05:10] that, that, kind of that then escalated, of course, and culminated in kind of, um, yeah. The, [00:05:15] this complete slipped disc which, which affected, um, my fingers and my and my manual dexterity. [00:05:20]

And you were saying when you look at it now, you think an element of why that happened [00:05:25] was that you’re a left hander, but you kind of retrained yourself [00:05:30] into being a right hander very early on.

Yes. Yeah. I mean, I’m naturally [00:05:35] a left hander. I write with my left hand and I noticed [00:05:40] that at dental school, everything’s kind of geared towards being right handed. Dentist. Um, [00:05:45] a lot of the demonstrators were themselves right handers. So a lot of the kind of demonstrations [00:05:50] that were done. I almost had to kind of.

Reverse.

Reverse it [00:05:55] in my mind. Um, and there wasn’t, at that time, a lot, a lot of support in terms of how to do that. [00:06:00] Yeah. And then, you know, I was given some advice that, you know, [00:06:05] why don’t you try learning with your right hand? Because if you can learn to be ambidextrous, then [00:06:10] you could kind of work in any situation. Uh, and my kind of thinking was, you know, [00:06:15] you know, I’m still pretty raw with my left hand. I’m learning a new skill. Yeah. Yeah. Let me be raw with [00:06:20] my right hand. And let me make all the mistakes on the phantom head now. And by the time I come out, you know it [00:06:25] will be. It will be okay. And. Yeah. So I retrained as a as a right handed dentist. And I became [00:06:30] very, very skilled at that actually.

And then you were working in different practices [00:06:35] as a right hander. No, no.

No, I just everything was right.

I never, ever did dentistry. Your left hand. [00:06:40]

I never did just because I did so much practice on the phantom head with the left hand, [00:06:45] that when I then started to switch. I could switch for certain things [00:06:50] like, you know, kind of crown preps and any kind of fine things like root canal, crown [00:06:55] preps, margins. I would be more comfortable with my right hand because it became more dextrous. Yeah, [00:07:00] my left hand, I used to use it for certain things, but I kind of [00:07:05] almost said, you know what? I’ve learned right handed. Now, let me just stick with that. Because if I can do this for, [00:07:10] you know, you’ve got this thing about the 10,000 hours thing, if you do something for 10,000 hours, [00:07:15] you become an expert. So I’m like, I don’t want to switch halfway now and kind of confuse my brain. So yeah, I [00:07:20] just did everything right handed.

But you think that that actually has an effect on [00:07:25] your posture, your stress levels?

I think it does. Because, you know, what I [00:07:30] realised was that it’s not only just holding a handpiece in the right hand. What tends to happen is when [00:07:35] when you’re your brain is wired a certain way, your whole kind of neuromusculature [00:07:40] and your whole body corresponds to that. And looking back now, kind of what [00:07:45] I realised was, although in my mind I was quite happy with the work that I was doing right [00:07:50] handed. A lot of it was then me positioning my body and [00:07:55] my neck and back in really unhealthy positions to kind [00:08:00] of get that direct vision that I was after and that kind of manual dexterity. And I wonder [00:08:05] if I had stuck with the left hand, because that’s the way my [00:08:10] physiology and everything was geared towards. Maybe it would have been, um, [00:08:15] a healthier posture, I don’t know. But yeah, I can I can only conjecture.

And so [00:08:20] when you before the issue became an issue, how [00:08:25] would you mapped out your career? What were you what were you going to do?

Yeah.

So I’m an associate when all [00:08:30] of this was going.

So it was it was kind of, you know, I was happy in the practice. The patients [00:08:35] were nice. The practice was really good, and I was I was earning a good income. I was doing the work [00:08:40] that I enjoyed doing. Um, so really it was, it was my goal was [00:08:45] yeah, just to kind of, you know, career associate route, you know, just keep working. Um, have [00:08:50] have an income coming in and obviously have investments outside of dentistry. Um, I [00:08:55] was always been interested in kind of the investment world and kind of stocks, shares, property. [00:09:00] So my, my kind of outlook was, you know, you’ve got your, your central kind of, you know, secure [00:09:05] stable uh or what I, what I thought was secure and stable income coming in. Uh, and [00:09:10] I was always mindful of the fact that, you know, with dentistry, it’s kind of like a, it’s a career where [00:09:15] it really relies on you being there 24 over seven. I mean, if you stop doing a filling or you go [00:09:20] on a holiday or something, that’s it. The income dries up. So I’ve always been geared towards thinking [00:09:25] about the future in terms of how would you invest money.

So then you could retire at a certain [00:09:30] age, or you could you could kind of cut down at a certain age. So that’s kind of how I mapped out, mapped [00:09:35] out my career that I would do dentistry. And I would do that really until kind [00:09:40] of it came to retire and maybe a little bit before that I would cut back a bit because I always [00:09:45] find it. I mean, it is a stressful profession. It’s not something I wanted to do six days a week for the rest of my life, [00:09:50] and I was kind of advised by colleagues older than me that, look, it’s not healthy anyway, that you may [00:09:55] want to kind of cut back a little bit over time, um, just to get that work life balance. [00:10:00] Um, so yeah, the idea was do that dentistry cut back a little bit, you know, part [00:10:05] time when I could. And I had another kind of passive income stream coming in and then yeah, [00:10:10] you know, have a have an investment portfolio in place to, to kind of live out the rest of my life. So were.

You overworking. [00:10:15] Were you doing six days a week?

Yeah. I think for a long time I was [00:10:20] kind of, you know, hell bent on this, you know, let’s generate as much income as we can, [00:10:25] you know, while I can let me do that. So then I have a, have a nice kind of bit of capital [00:10:30] to invest in other things. So I was always very geared towards work, work, work, very much a [00:10:35] workaholic. So it was kind of like, you know, Monday to Friday and also Saturday, half [00:10:40] days as well. Um, I remember, you know, colleagues in the practice coming [00:10:45] and telling me, look, mate, you know, you need to take at least a holiday a year, at least 1 [00:10:50] or 2 holidays. Just doing that. No, no, I just got into the I got into the mindset [00:10:55] of I used to be scared of taking holidays because I would I would enjoy them for like the first 1 [00:11:00] or 2 days, and then I would have this voice in my head thinking, you know, how many [00:11:05] hours have you sat at the beach today? You know, what’s your hourly rate? How much have you lost? [00:11:10] So when you go back, you know, maybe I could do a bit of extra and a few extra crowns or a few extra. It was a very unhealthy mentality [00:11:15] to have, but I used to find that I used to just ruminate on that. So rather than enjoying [00:11:20] the holiday and enjoying the time with my family, I was I was kind of half enjoying and half [00:11:25] my mind was back at the practice and back with my patients worrying about things.

Why?

Why? [00:11:30] I think it’s just maybe the way I’m wired. I don’t think it’s healthy and I don’t encourage that kind [00:11:35] of thinking. Um, but I think it all stems in [00:11:40] a Y always comes down to it. There’s always something in a person’s mindset that drives them. [00:11:45] I think I’ve always been a very driven person. I’ve always wanted to kind of, um, I [00:11:50] think, you know, prove to myself and obviously you want to prove to your parents, [00:11:55] you want them to be proud of you. You want to show that you’re successful. And I think the way [00:12:00] things are made in the kind of the environment and society we live in, that’s unfortunately [00:12:05] that’s material success. That’s money and houses and cars. So I went [00:12:10] through a whole phase of, you know, I have to have the nice car and the nice watch and all this stuff. [00:12:15] And that required working hard and looking back, I think that probably [00:12:20] wasn’t a very healthy mentality. And I don’t I wouldn’t want to encourage that in my kids. So I would say, [00:12:25] yeah, you know, definitely work hard and have a goal and have a, have a, you know, a passion for what you’re doing, but balance [00:12:30] that as well because it’s it’s not the be all and end all of life. You know, you’re not your profession. You know [00:12:35] there’s there’s life outside of that which is more meaningful and the connections with [00:12:40] people and travelling. And those are the things you remember at the end, not your, you know, how many crown [00:12:45] preps you’ve done.

But also if the goal was income generation, six days [00:12:50] a week of dentistry might not have been the best way to get that goal. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember cutting [00:12:55] down to four days. Yeah. Earning as much as I was earning in five. Yeah. Then I [00:13:00] thought I’d go down to three days. Yeah. To try and get the same amount of income. Yeah. [00:13:05] And I found that wasn’t quite for, definitely for, for I think for it was earning more than [00:13:10] the five. I think.

You’re right. Four is the sweet spot and.

The sweet spot of, of of that [00:13:15] particular era. Yeah. Yeah. So I reckon three is lovely. I’ve done three. [00:13:20] Yeah a lot. I’ve done two a lot, yeah, I’ve done one for six [00:13:25] years. I did one day a week. Wow. Big mistake. I think one one’s just not enough.

It’s not. Yeah. [00:13:30]

Not enough rhythm in it. Yeah. Um, when I, when I say when I ask why, my question [00:13:35] really is, is that sort of mentality of work your butt off mentality? [00:13:40] Yeah. As a precursor to success? Yeah. It’s okay. Yes. [00:13:45] One one way of succeeding is to work harder than everyone else. Yeah. Yeah. And in [00:13:50] a way, that’s a prerequisite. Yeah. But work at what? Like put your ladder [00:13:55] against which wall before you climb it.

Precisely.

I thought I thought, yeah, that [00:14:00] I need one day to. One day a week. Not not not a weekend day. One work [00:14:05] day to plot. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, you’ve got other interests, [00:14:10] right? You’ve got properties. Yeah. And so on that Saturday morning, [00:14:15] the amount you were earning.

Mhm.

Arguably if you spent that Saturday morning working [00:14:20] on your property business you’d be earning more. But that didn’t cross your mind. So you were sort of very [00:14:25] tunnel visioned.

Yeah. About it. I think I think you’re right. And it’s kind of it’s ironic [00:14:30] because when, when I was actually forced to cut down to three days.

It sharpens [00:14:35] you up.

Yeah, it was amazing because I was I was really scared, like, oh my [00:14:40] God. You know, I was like doing all these calculations that, oh, you know, if I cut down, my income is going [00:14:45] to be reduced by this much. And I was doing all these like three year projections and blah, blah, blah. Let me speak to [00:14:50] the accountant, actually. Do you know what the funny thing is? I actually ended up earning more [00:14:55] in three days. And that time out of dentistry to actually think [00:15:00] about what I’m doing and recover and recuperate when I went back into practice. [00:15:05] Um, so I did Monday to Wednesday and I cut I cut out Thursday, Friday. So I, and [00:15:10] I cut, cut out the Saturday. So I actually had Thursday.

This was for you because of your neck.

Because of the.

Neck [00:15:15] to slow down. Because.

Yeah. I mean literally the surgeon was like, look, you know, you need to either [00:15:20] either you need to you’re going to have to quit right now, or if you want to try [00:15:25] and get some longevity out of this and see if you can heal up, at least you need to go part time. So it [00:15:30] was more I was forced to do it. Do it. And the ironic thing is that you’re absolutely right. When I did that, and I did that for [00:15:35] over just over a year, and when I look back at my accounts and everything [00:15:40] I was, I was like, wow, do you know what I should not proportional.

No, no, really.

No, [00:15:45] it’s not proportional. And actually it’s better because I had that kind of extra time [00:15:50] with my family and extra time to think about other things and, you know, other life [00:15:55] in general and other business ventures. Um, and I found that when you actually switch off from dentistry [00:16:00] and then you go back after a little bit of like a time of recuperation and recovery, you [00:16:05] become more efficient. Your thought process changes the way you talk to patients, changes.

It [00:16:10] private, then.

Private dentistry.

Specifically in private dentistry, what you say to patients [00:16:15] is the most important part percent.

100%.

And so if you’re burnt out, you [00:16:20] just can’t. You almost like a robot, right? You’re just you’re just doing going through the motions. [00:16:25] Yeah. Whereas if you’re fresh doing courses, talking talk [00:16:30] to patients. You know, it’s certain. That’s an amazing learning point in itself. And yet you [00:16:35] found that even though you cut down the neck was still getting worse.

Yeah, [00:16:40] I think unfortunately, because I pushed it to such a limit, it got to the [00:16:45] point that it was just the, the, the way, the mechanical way [00:16:50] of doing dentistry. And you know, you can’t I maybe learned learned some [00:16:55] bad posture. But I tried to, you know, rejig my posture and everything. But my [00:17:00] body was it’s been trained like that. So I found that I was constantly irritating it [00:17:05] and constantly then having to take painkillers and steroid jabs and and eventually [00:17:10] the surgeon sat me down and said, look, do you know what you’re probably your best bet is? The damage [00:17:15] has happened. Now it’s not going to reverse. Um, and you know, you’re going to need a surgery. [00:17:20] Um, and it was quite a scary way. He explained it in a disc replacement [00:17:25] surgery, you know, going through the front, removing the disc, disk. Working so close to the [00:17:30] spinal cord? Um, I think unfortunately, it was too late by then. The [00:17:35] damage was done, and even going to part time wasn’t going. Going to [00:17:40] help because it was the nature of the job. Um, that that you have to move around and we and we have a [00:17:45] our demographic was a lot of elderly patients who themselves had limited movement. And you just couldn’t [00:17:50] do that. I didn’t want to compromise on the dentistry. So I would I would pop the painkillers and I would be like, [00:17:55] listen, I’m gonna do this prep and I’m gonna twist my neck, and I know it’s gonna I’m [00:18:00] not going to move the next day, but I have to do it because this patient needs this care, and I wanted [00:18:05] to do it to the best of my ability. So towards the end of it, I knew I was just [00:18:10] just kind of.

You know, muscle.

Memory.

Muscle memory is such an extraordinary thing. It is. [00:18:15] The way I think about it is when I was 18, in uni, [00:18:20] someone told me, you’re riding bicycle incorrectly. You’re where my where [00:18:25] my feet are positioned on the pedals. Wrong. It needs to be the tip of your toes on the pedal, not [00:18:30] not the middle of your heel or whatever it is. And from 18 until 45, [00:18:35] every time I ride a bike, I did it that way. Never felt right, man. Because in those [00:18:40] formative years and as a kid, you ride a bike a lot, I guess. Yes. But in those formative [00:18:45] years, my I was most comfortable with my legs in the wrong position. And to this day, [00:18:50] I’m more comfortable with my legs than that, even though I honestly, every time I ride a bike from 18 onwards, [00:18:55] I made a real point of doing it the other way. But muscle memory, man.

It’s [00:19:00] a hard thing. And even when you know intellectually that I have to do it [00:19:05] in a new way because I’m damaging myself, you can do it for, you know, a few minutes [00:19:10] or, you know, five, ten minutes. But with dentistry, you become so robotic in some of the [00:19:15] movements you do. And I used to just be nudged by my nurse saying, look, what are you what are you doing? [00:19:20] And I’m like, oh, wow. Okay. Let me you know, I didn’t realise that was just my bending and twisting at a [00:19:25] 90 degree angle, but I had. It’s just that’s the way I had done it, and that’s the way I knew I could. [00:19:30] I could do the prep and I was comfortable with it. Um, so you’re absolutely right. I think, you know, these things become ingrained [00:19:35] and it’s better to learn the good habits from the beginning for the formative stages, because [00:19:40] relearning this stuff later is really difficult. It’s really, really difficult. It’s a battle.

So [00:19:45] then you’ve got a moment happened where you talk to your doctors [00:19:50] and they said, look, either you stop completely and see [00:19:55] how that works out for your neck, or you have this gigantic operation with risks [00:20:00] and, and so forth. And you decided at that moment I’m going to have to stop. Yeah. [00:20:05] And financially, you’d saved up some money. Yeah, yeah. And just tell [00:20:10] me what’s going through your head. Because the kind of person who’s so defined themselves by dentistry that [00:20:15] they’re doing six days a week. Yeah, that must be like a weird. I went through it myself. [00:20:20] I still define myself as a dentist. Yeah. Must be a really weird feeling. What were you [00:20:25] thinking? Were you thinking. It’s a it’s a it’s a small period of time, and you’ll go back to it. Or did [00:20:30] you actually face the notion of. I might have to, like, change my. I mean, you did, right. You changed your career. [00:20:35] How did it feel identity wise?

I think you know, you’re [00:20:40] absolutely right. I think the way I would define it as it maybe sounds a bit [00:20:45] dramatic, but it kind of almost felt like. Like a death. You know.

You mourned it somehow. [00:20:50]

Yeah. Yeah. It literally felt like a death. You know, you had you know, I went through the whole kind of grief [00:20:55] and fear and even denial. Yeah. It’s not happening. It’s fine. I’ll be okay. [00:21:00]

The seven stages.

Oh. The whole. Yeah, the whole stages. I went through all of that. And I think, you [00:21:05] know, I, I kind of got to the stage where I’m like, you know what? Let me, you [00:21:10] know, use this kind of pain as, as fuel. Rather than dwell [00:21:15] on it as.

An opportunity.

As an opportunity. And yet it was absolutely an identity crisis. [00:21:20] And there was a big kind of several months of kind of where I really went. It [00:21:25] felt low and almost like a depression where I was like, what do I do? And you know, what [00:21:30] I realised was that, you know, this is forcing me to ask a question which I [00:21:35] haven’t faced before. You know, how do I define myself [00:21:40] beyond the drills and the GDC number? You know, who am I? And it was a whole [00:21:45] identity thing. And I was like, you know, rather than frame it as an identity crisis, [00:21:50] maybe I could pivot it and make it into an identity upgrade. You know, so reinvention. [00:21:55] So I started exploring, you know, what could I do to [00:22:00] still serve the dental profession, but rather than doing it with my hands, [00:22:05] you know, do it with my mind, you know, with systems and strategies and things that I had learned [00:22:10] over the years, what could I do? So to answer your question, I think I [00:22:15] accepted it because it was a long process. It wasn’t like a it wasn’t like a snap decision. It was. I [00:22:20] knew this was potentially coming. It was a period of a year and a half, almost two years. And [00:22:25] yes, it was a calculated kind of risk. I mean, I’d kind of rejigged things around financially [00:22:30] so that I knew I know that I’ve got a bit of a buffer there as well. And I [00:22:35] reframed it as a kind of like a rather than a catastrophic [00:22:40] event.

And this is the end of everything. I was like, that’s not helping anybody, [00:22:45] you know? I mean, I’ve got two young kids, I’ve got a four and a half year old and a two and a half year old. And, you know, [00:22:50] I’ve got family. People are depending on me. I can’t be wallowing. So I was like, let me [00:22:55] use this to actually reinvent myself. Uh, and I reframed it [00:23:00] that actually, you know, you’re very lucky because some people, they do something, and then they’re doing that for the rest of their [00:23:05] lives, and they reach a point that maybe they think, oh, you know, maybe I could have done this, this, this, but it’s too late. And [00:23:10] now the universe is essentially giving me a second chance. So I saw it more like [00:23:15] a rebirth, you know? Let me try and reinvent [00:23:20] myself. And the worst case scenario is, you know, I’m gonna [00:23:25] learn lots of new skills, meet lots of new people, and have lots of [00:23:30] exciting stories. And I may go, I may do something which I’d never imagined. Um, [00:23:35] and for me, I think that opportunity and yes, it’s a risk, but [00:23:40] I think for me, the opportunity was too good to turn down. Yeah. [00:23:45] Um, and, you know, the way I look at risk is that, you know, risk is unavoidable. Um, [00:23:50] but I think what’s worse than risk is regret. I [00:23:55] think that’s worse because that gnaws at you. What if, what if, what if. So that was my [00:24:00] thought process.

Yeah, I like that. Um, anyway, in at any [00:24:05] moment when life is going the wrong way. Gratitude, definitely. I [00:24:10] mean, gratitude generally is a good idea. It’s a good idea. I mean, anyone listening to this who is still drilling. [00:24:15] However much you hate your nurse, however much you hate your [00:24:20] practice, however much you know, whatever it is, Randy [00:24:25] can’t drill anymore. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, just that gratitude of I can [00:24:30] put food on the table with an mod 100%. Yeah, you haven’t got that at the moment. Yeah, yeah. And [00:24:35] much of the audience has got that, however difficult life is from the work perspective. [00:24:40] And then with you again, gratitude at least I’ve got this opportunity and gratitude [00:24:45] just perfect. And you know, in the final analysis. Yeah, some child was born yesterday and [00:24:50] bombed tomorrow.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? Like, even if even if even if you get [00:24:55] even if you get a cancer diagnosis, you’re going to die in three months time. Yeah, yeah. Some some child [00:25:00] has got it worse than you. It just helps. Gratitude just helps.

Gratitude is and it’s [00:25:05] amazing because you know, you don’t. And it’s a cliche, but it’s so true. You know, you don’t realise what [00:25:10] you have until it’s gone. And no matter how you how. No. Yeah, I know you get jaded [00:25:15] and I know clinical work and patience and, you know, all this stuff. And it’s [00:25:20] stressful and I don’t like it. And everybody goes through that. But you know, when you [00:25:25] actually sit down and you’re confronted with the reality that, well, that’s gone now, there you go. Have fun. [00:25:30] And it’s amazing how you so defined [00:25:35] by by your profession and what you’re doing. It’s so intertwined within your brain. [00:25:40] Yeah, that when it’s gone and we.

Do as dentists, we do convince ourselves there’s nothing [00:25:45] else we can do. Yeah. I mean, you had your IT side. Yeah. But a lot of us think, [00:25:50] you know what else? I don’t know anything else. That’s all I know. Yeah, yeah. And whether it’s a medical [00:25:55] thing, whether it’s a GDC thing, that’s why people are so scared of that, right? Because you think, well, what am [00:26:00] I going to do? What am I going to do next? So that kind of scratching [00:26:05] the itch of software, tech, AI and timing [00:26:10] wise, not bad, right? Because I think ai it feels. Do you remember when Google [00:26:15] came out? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And the whole world changed. Yeah. And so it’s the same thing. [00:26:20] Like when social came out, the whole world changed. Yeah. Now AI’s come out. The whole world is [00:26:25] about to change. There’s about to be winners and losers. Yeah. There’s about to be, you know, like, so much [00:26:30] more work and so much less work for another group of people. [00:26:35] Yeah. Timing wise, it’s kind of an interesting time.

It is, it is.

You’re [00:26:40] biting a huge bite. Yeah, yeah. Taking a big chunk and and [00:26:45] the question of, you know, with companies in general, can we get somewhere, the dream [00:26:50] that you have, the steps that it takes to get to that dream. How much did you know [00:26:55] about entrepreneurship? Um, you know, before we went on, Mike, you were [00:27:00] talking about, you know, things like, uh, minimum viable product, uh, runway, [00:27:05] all of it. How much did you know about all that stuff before?

Yeah.

Were you interested in it anyway, [00:27:10] or did you have to get interested?

I think I was. I was always interested in it. I always had this [00:27:15] kind of, you know, entrepreneurial bent of kind of. I loved the business side [00:27:20] of things. Even during my associateship, I was always looking at ways, you know, to [00:27:25] open businesses and maybe buy a practice. I was always looking at business, and I was [00:27:30] very interested in people who have an idea and [00:27:35] how that idea is translated into something practical developed, and [00:27:40] then they go to market with it and, and they don’t know where it’s going to work or it’s not going to work. [00:27:45] I’ve always been fascinated by that kind of story of entrepreneurship. Uh, [00:27:50] and I always used to read all the books and watch all these videos. And I got [00:27:55] to this stage now where I’m like, you know, I have a chance now to potentially pursue something like this. And yet [00:28:00] I’ve always been interested in tech, and I’ve been watching AI for a long time. And [00:28:05] it’s just for me. What the way AI is now. It’s [00:28:10] how the internet was back then. We’re at that stage, you know, when when it was at [00:28:15] that stage when you had the AOL and the Googles and the Amazons and, you know, there was so much [00:28:20] noise. Dot com.

Yeah. The.com bubble and the boom and the bust. We’re living [00:28:25] that now. So it’s actually a very exciting time to be alive because it’s kind of a second chance of going through [00:28:30] that. Yeah. Um but it’s happening a lot faster. And it will happen a lot faster than the internet [00:28:35] boom happened, because we’ve got a lot of the infrastructure there. And what I’ve seen with AI is that AI [00:28:40] just multiplies things. It’s, it’s it’s a speed multiplier and it can go [00:28:45] in any way. But it’s things are happening very quickly. And it’s a [00:28:50] time now where I think if you can come in with something novel and fulfil, [00:28:55] you know, fulfil a solve a problem, really using AI [00:29:00] in a practical way and not just a kind of, you know, bells and whistles and the ChatGPT and all the kind of That [00:29:05] kind of top end stuff, but actually solve business problems. Realistically, [00:29:10] and show people how you can give them an ROI on, on on a piece of [00:29:15] software. I think it’s a good it’s a very, very good time to do it. But yes, it’s [00:29:20] a very risky time, and it’s a time when, you know, people are either gonna be winners [00:29:25] or they’re going to go bust.

Yeah. What did you do to educate yourself, both from a [00:29:30] business perspective and from a tech perspective?

So first thing, what [00:29:35] I did was, you know, when this thing happened with my neck, I said, look, you know, I need to diversify [00:29:40] my skill set. And I would say, anybody listening to this, any dentist listening to this, it’s always, [00:29:45] always a good idea. Do the dentistry 100% [00:29:50] and get good at dentistry. But always invest in yourself outside of dentistry, be it [00:29:55] with non-related courses, business, entrepreneurship, anything else [00:30:00] in personal development, you need to diversify your skill set because again, you’ve got, you know, [00:30:05] one pair of hands and something happens and you can’t do it. You need to be able to diversify. So that’s one point [00:30:10] in terms of what I did. I actually said, you know, I need to educate myself. I went on [00:30:15] a course at Imperial Business School. It was the, um, AI Beyond [00:30:20] Generative AI course at Imperial Business School. And this really helped [00:30:25] to kind of open my eyes, expanded really how I thought about technology. I’ll always used to think about [00:30:30] technology as a feature or a tool. This is a piece of technology. This is [00:30:35] an AI tool. But actually what I learned was that technology is really the [00:30:40] core driver of strategy and transformation in the business. It’s not just a standalone tool, [00:30:45] although it can be, but it’s more of a strategic driver. And what that [00:30:50] taught me was it kind of helped me to imagine, expanded my imagination so [00:30:55] I could learn how to use AI in new ways, not just for automation, but [00:31:00] to actually, you know, disrupt the way Dental business is done and [00:31:05] any business is done. It’s a real disruptor. So I think it opened my eyes to how to [00:31:10] use tools to actually disrupt and innovate in industries [00:31:15] where maybe things are done in a certain way and people are entrenched in a certain thinking. So yeah, [00:31:20] I definitely.

Was the course like, I mean, were you talking how long was it? So this, this were the other people [00:31:25] on the course.

So I mean.

Were you out of your depth compared to the others or did you feel comfortable? [00:31:30]

I mean, it was good because it was a non-technical course, so you didn’t need to come to it from [00:31:35] like a coding background. So it was it was a lot of different business executives from [00:31:40] loads of different industries. So you had kind of, you know, finance, you know, oil and gas [00:31:45] economy. So it was really interesting actually, because.

Meeting those guys.

Yeah.

Meeting those guys.

Yeah. [00:31:50] Because it’s kind of when you talk to people and I found I learnt more about [00:31:55] dentistry and dental business from speaking to people outside of Side of dentistry [00:32:00] and actually seeing how they do things and then filtering that through that Dental [00:32:05] business lens. And then you learn so much more and you can actually there’s there’s [00:32:10] so many transferable skills you can learn. So I didn’t feel out of my depth because I think everybody was [00:32:15] in the same boat. And with AI it’s, it’s it’s kind of new. It’s so new that, you [00:32:20] know, you learn something one week and then next week they come out with another announcement. It’s all changed. So we were all out [00:32:25] of our depth. But I went to it with a very open mind. I said.

What was it? Was it one day a week?

No. [00:32:30] So this was really good because it was it was an online course and I did it over six [00:32:35] months. Um, there were a couple of networking sessions as well in person, but [00:32:40] I actually because at that time I was still doing dentistry and I was kind of transitioning out of dentistry. So this [00:32:45] really worked for me because it was I could do it during my lunch time. So I used to see my morning patients [00:32:50] go on these live webinars and sessions during my lunch time and then see my [00:32:55] evening patients and then, you know, at night once the kids were in bed doing all the coursework. [00:33:00] So this was nice because I didn’t really have the time or the luxury to kind of go on campus [00:33:05] and go for a whole year thing. So for me, this was nice because it was I could do [00:33:10] it around around my work at that time. Uh, and I kind of wanted to tie it [00:33:15] in that when I then left the dental side of things, I had that under my belt. Uh, [00:33:20] and, yes, obviously the course content is good. It helps you to to learn [00:33:25] about entrepreneurship and business innovation, but more so it’s the networking. [00:33:30] It’s kind of getting that network and speaking to to people in a [00:33:35] similar environment who are entrepreneurs and founders and the building things, and you build that camaraderie [00:33:40] and that network.

So for me, it was yeah, it was two pronged. I wanted yeah, the [00:33:45] knowledge, but more so I actually wanted to open the doors in terms of that networking [00:33:50] side of things because as, as, as dentists, you know, it’s a very isolating profession. And I was drilling [00:33:55] Phil for so many years, you kind of neglect that whole other side of things like networking and building, [00:34:00] building those kind of professional networks and friendship networks. And I’d kind of let that [00:34:05] go. And you can’t really, as you know, you can’t really make a successful business [00:34:10] if you’re if you’re not networking, if you don’t have have a group of people and peers even just to tell [00:34:15] you that an idea is crap, you know, even just to say, look, this is what I think. And they say, no, you know, you’re barking up the wrong tree. Or [00:34:20] have you tried this? Have you tried that? See, that was my thought process behind that. So yeah, self-education is a must. [00:34:25] I’ve always been a lifelong learner. I’ve loved reading and I’ve loved reading around the subject [00:34:30] of so not just Dental stuff, but non non related dental stuff. [00:34:35] And I found I can pick things from everywhere and utilise what’s what’s helpful.

And [00:34:40] so now you’re kind of immersed in that sort of founder community [00:34:45] let’s say. Yeah. Where what you’re having meetings with uh VC’s [00:34:50] and incubators and the [00:34:55] London’s actually becoming quite good in that sense. It’s all a sort of Shoreditch, [00:35:00] isn’t it? Yeah, yeah, that area there. But you said you haven’t got a mentor. Yeah, [00:35:05] I would get one. I agree I’d get one. Yeah. It’s. Yeah it’s funny because we get it [00:35:10] as dentists it makes sense to have an implant mentor. Yeah. But in business we don’t we sort [00:35:15] of doesn’t come as naturally. Yeah, but I would I would get into that world. You’re you’re obviously a little bit [00:35:20] older than most founders. Yeah, yeah. So now going forward, [00:35:25] um, where are we where are we at with the product, by the way? By the way, what’s what’s [00:35:30] a few good books you read about business?

Well, um.

Did you read lean.

Start-up? Yeah, well, [00:35:35] I’ve read lean Start-Up. I love that whole philosophy behind it. Yeah. Um, one book which [00:35:40] really comes to mind is, I don’t know whether you’ve read it. It’s the one thing by Gary Keller and, [00:35:45] uh, Jacobson.

I’ve heard of.

It. It’s it’s basically it’s quite interesting because, you know, [00:35:50] the premise is that if if you focus on 1 [00:35:55] or 2 main things in a business, usually it’s not about doing lots of different, lots [00:36:00] of things. And as dentists, we’re inundated with kind of you’ve got patients, you’ve got staff, you’ve got CQC, you’ve [00:36:05] got finances. And you know, especially my thought process was if I just do more [00:36:10] of everything, I can get better or I can, I can earn more, I can grow more, scale more. But actually [00:36:15] the reverse is true. Usually if you analyse it, there’s 1 or 2 key things [00:36:20] that if you focus on those and you focus on those consistently, they have much more of a multiplier [00:36:25] effect. So this book I would recommend, it’s called the One thing. And that’s the premise that, you know, there’s [00:36:30] only 1 or 2 main levers that you need to pull, and you need to do those consistently. [00:36:35] And over time, that will actually have much more of a compounding effect than trying to just do lots of [00:36:40] different things and do more essentially. So less is more.

Yes. I think about that quite a [00:36:45] lot, man, because people think you’re right. The normal way you think is Add. [00:36:50]

Yeah.

Um, yeah, but you look at a company like a line. Yeah, a [00:36:55] line could add everything, couldn’t they? The biggest company in dentistry right [00:37:00] now. Yeah. They could become Henry Schein if they wanted to, but they don’t. They’re fully focussed [00:37:05] in on Invisalign, you know, they. And I guess I terror or whatever. Yeah. Like, you know, they [00:37:10] could easily move in different directions. Um, it does make [00:37:15] sense to fully focus. So when, when you thought about that, what was the one thing that [00:37:20] you thought practice management like that or was it more than that? Was it the way you act [00:37:25] or your personal.

Yeah, I think I like to read these kind of business books, not just for [00:37:30] the business perspective, but I like to take things from those and use them in my life because I think they’re useful. [00:37:35] So I think niching down, as you mentioned, is really powerful. It’s sometimes not [00:37:40] in a nice I know I’ll do this, I’ll do that, I’ll do this. But I’m always a firm believer that, you know, [00:37:45] find a niche and fully Immerse. Immerse yourself [00:37:50] in that and become the best at that niche. Because if you become the best in [00:37:55] that one thing you know, like life’s too short to try and become good at everything. You [00:38:00] have to play into your strengths. Yeah. Um, and yeah, you know, doing lots of things works for some [00:38:05] people, but you have to be very careful. And I’ve always I’ve always been kind of niching [00:38:10] down, even in a clinical practice. I kind of niche down into look, I like [00:38:15] cerec and I want to do cerec crowns. My patients like them and I just want to become really [00:38:20] good at it. And I got a I got this kind of workflow going where I could just do it very quickly. And I was [00:38:25] good at it, and I liked it and patients liked it, and I would cut out other stuff because I’m like, [00:38:30] this is the niche I want to focus on. So yeah, I think Niching down is very powerful. Um, and [00:38:35] especially when you’re starting out because you can’t do everything. So if you, if you try to become [00:38:40] an expert at one thing and you become the go to person for that one [00:38:45] thing, I think it would become a lot more successful than trying to be the jack of all trades, especially at [00:38:50] the beginning.

Yeah, but practically, what is the one thing? What what what’s going through your head?

So what, you mean in [00:38:55] terms of kind of the the the software side of things or the Start-Up?

You said the book makes you niche in. [00:39:00]

Yeah.

So, so what did you decide to niche in on software.

Yeah. So what I decided to niche [00:39:05] in I was like, look, you know, I’ve got 15 years or so of Dental experience. Um, I’ve [00:39:10] seen how things are changing. Dental practices are consolidating. It’s going to kind of like [00:39:15] a there’s a lot more kind of groups forming now, and there’s a lot more, um, advancement [00:39:20] and a lot more knowledge take up in terms of dentistry, people are a lot more [00:39:25] willing to take on tech solutions. There’s a lot of AI stuff happening front end. [00:39:30] So I saw all the AI stuff coming in. There’s amazing stuff happening in terms of AI receptionists. [00:39:35] There’s AI phone call analysis. You’ve obviously got the image analysis. They can detect caries. [00:39:40] Pearl, Pearl all this kind of stuff coming out. It’s really powerful. But I thought to myself, you [00:39:45] know, there’s there’s nothing that I can see at the moment that’s working on the back end of things. And I saw [00:39:50] as a I mean, I saw it from an associate angle. I saw the practice owners running around like headless [00:39:55] chickens, you know, trying to do everything you got. The practice owner who’s a clinician, they’re the marketer. They’re the [00:40:00] they’re the kind of admin person. They’re the CFO person. And it’s just not sustainable or healthy. So [00:40:05] my vision was, you know, if I could give them a tool to just help [00:40:10] them build a business, which was not kind of being reactive, but actually they could build it intentionally [00:40:15] and it would actually protect their energy and allow them to scale more intelligently, [00:40:20] but still have something left over inside for the more important things like their health, their family, [00:40:25] and life outside of practice.

So I think what me looking at things from the outside [00:40:30] of dentistry now, what I’ve come to see is that we’ve really normalised stress, [00:40:35] um, inefficiency and burnout. It’s just normal. We think that’s a dentist. [00:40:40] You’re going to get burnt out and that’s normal. And I wanted to help. I wanted to [00:40:45] do something to help people in our profession to actually say, actually, you know, I don’t [00:40:50] need to do everything. I could actually leverage technology to help me and free myself [00:40:55] up to kind of work on the other things, you know, work on work on the business [00:41:00] strategy, the systems, how to grow a practice because, you know, it’s very hard to work in a practice [00:41:05] and also work on the business at the same time. And it’s that e-myth, e-myth thing that we’re [00:41:10] all familiar with. And it’s true, you know, when you’re when you’ve got your head at the coalface [00:41:15] dealing with day to day chaos and the firefighting, it’s very hard to think clearly about [00:41:20] scaling and growth and systems from the practice. So I wanted to change that. And I think [00:41:25] AI is really going to be a disruptive technology in that space, because it’s [00:41:30] not about AI replacing people. It’s about using AI as [00:41:35] a as almost like a co-pilot, your silent co-pilot in the practice that is [00:41:40] there to take over and automate the tedious tasks and frees the human [00:41:45] being up to do what they should be doing, which is the patient centred things, the high value, the creativity. [00:41:50]

How are you going to grow your business? How are you going to be creative? It frees you up [00:41:55] to do that. And that’s that’s where the software aspect came in. [00:42:00] And I mean, I thought of the idea of of having like an AI CFO [00:42:05] for a dental practice, you know, having having that kind of expertise there. So, you know, the [00:42:10] name I came up was with dentist CFO and that was that was the Start-Up that I have. And the idea [00:42:15] is really to to have an have a financial brain around your, [00:42:20] your practice finances. I mean, what I saw was that practice owners, they lack this [00:42:25] financial clarity. A lot of there’s a lot of data. You’ve got data from PMS tools [00:42:30] and you’ve got data from QuickBooks and sage. But it’s all fragmented and it’s all in different places. And [00:42:35] there’s still, you know, you still have to collate all of that and try and get that in front of your eyes in [00:42:40] a in a plain English. So the idea for this is really to have a platform that’s [00:42:45] going to help dental practices gain clarity. That’s my my obsession. My my [00:42:50] obsession is clarity giving practice owners clarity. It’s amazing [00:42:55] how many dental practice owners are flying blind when it comes to their practice finances. [00:43:00] Yeah, and that’s the niche I want to kind of hone in is give them a tool [00:43:05] to to really help with that.

So look dentistry has kind of been it’s [00:43:10] profitable enough that you can run a business without this intelligence. Yes. [00:43:15] But give me an example of where I mean, I know you were just at MVP stage, but let’s [00:43:20] imagine let’s dream big. Let’s imagine that the system is fully running. Yeah. [00:43:25] Give me an example of the problem that dentist is trying to solve, and how this [00:43:30] sort of AI solution can solve it for him. Is it [00:43:35] in real time? Is it quicker? Is it better than. What’s [00:43:40] the alternative? His accountant? Yeah. Is that what we’re talking about?

Well, yeah. I mean, [00:43:45] what we’re talking about is you hit the nail on the head. It’s real time. A lot of the data at the moment, by [00:43:50] the time it. It’s in the front of the eyes of the practice owner or the manager. It’s [00:43:55] it’s historical. It’s not real time. Yeah. Now, the way things are going with the kind of cloud [00:44:00] based pms’s and a lot of the integrations and the open API systems, [00:44:05] you can actually plug in to a lot of these systems. And if you collate all this [00:44:10] fragmented data, you can present it in real time. And that’s really [00:44:15] useful because you need to really see where leaks are happening real time [00:44:20] to actually be effective with them. I mean, imagine, you know, plugging [00:44:25] into a system and saying, listen, you know, could you simulate for me hiring a full [00:44:30] time associate? Plug it in. Let’s do a simulation using my real time [00:44:35] data. What would the effect be on my bottom line if I hire another [00:44:40] full time associate? Bang. And that’s done for you in in seconds by AI doing [00:44:45] the analysis on that. And if we’re talking about now kind of groups of practices [00:44:50] where owners are kind of trying to grow these groups and scale [00:44:55] and tell a story to private equity and exit planning and all this stuff that requires [00:45:00] a lot of data, and the data needs to be very specific, real time, and it needs [00:45:05] to be comparable. So you need to say, look, how am I doing in terms of, say, EBITDA [00:45:10] if I twist, if I kind of changed 1 or 2 [00:45:15] KPIs, what effect would that have on my EBITDA? And with the power of [00:45:20] AI, you can simulate that without it having a real effect on your business.

So you [00:45:25] almost negate that risk. So that’s where the real power is. It’s not about automation. Automation [00:45:30] in AI has been there for a long time in the background. It’s just come into vogue now [00:45:35] because of the generative AI. The ChatGPT and stuff. But the next wave, where [00:45:40] things are going to be big, is actually using the AI as an as an intelligence platform. So [00:45:45] it becomes your almost like your your co-pilot or your advisor. Not [00:45:50] that you don’t make the judgement, you’re the final judge, but it presents it to you quicker [00:45:55] and in a way where you can act on it faster. Because in business, [00:46:00] as you know, in speed and clarity are everything. You know, if you’ve got some piece of data, there’s no point acting [00:46:05] on it tomorrow when your competitors are acting on it now. So that’s where [00:46:10] I see the opportunity. It’s not just about AI being used to automate things, which is useful, [00:46:15] but it’s about using that to actually act as a brain [00:46:20] of your practice, the intelligence layer of your practice. So that’s that’s [00:46:25] where I think that’s the big dream. That’s the big dream.

On day one. What do [00:46:30] you do to start that process?

Yeah, I think the first thing on day one, what we’ve [00:46:35] been doing is you need to talk to practice owners, you need to talk to you need to talk [00:46:40] to people who are there who are living that day to day. Yeah. And ask [00:46:45] them, you know, rather than say, look, this is my idea, I’m going to design X, [00:46:50] Y, and Z and I’m going to do this. It’s not about what you want. It’s about what your end user [00:46:55] needs. And I’m I’m always a believer in actually letting your customers [00:47:00] or your end users shape your product. You need to ask them what they want. And it’s very it sounds [00:47:05] it sounds almost too simple, but it’s true. Ask them and listen. [00:47:10] It’s not about telling people what they need, it’s about you asking them what they [00:47:15] want and then giving that to them. It’s as simple as that. Yeah, if [00:47:20] you can. And so, yeah, to answer your question, it’s market research. I mean I I’ve [00:47:25] spoken to hundreds of, of of dentists and practice owners and it’s [00:47:30] just research you market research and then having a team.

How did [00:47:35] you find hundreds of dentists to talk to?

Linkedin.

Oh, really?

Linkedin is an amazing [00:47:40] platform for I mean, obviously you’ve got you’ve got your Instagram.

Your cold kind of messaging [00:47:45] them on LinkedIn saying, yeah.

Yeah, it’s and it’s amazing, you know, when [00:47:50] and this is what’s really humbling is the amount of camaraderie that there is in our profession. You know, [00:47:55] when you ask when you just message somebody you don’t know and they come back to you as [00:48:00] a fellow dentist and take the time to actually say, look, I’ve had a look [00:48:05] at this questionnaire that you sent me. I’ve had a look at this prototype, and here’s what I think, [00:48:10] and here’s some feedback for you. And that’s really I’m really grateful [00:48:15] for that. And that’s really humbling. So one thing I would say, which is amazing in a profession like ours, [00:48:20] is that camaraderie that’s there, that if you ask people, if you just ask people, knock, knock on [00:48:25] the door, they will talk to you. Yeah. Like yourself, you know, I met you at the BDA conference and I just [00:48:30] came over to say hello, and I loved the podcast and it’s really had a had an effect on me [00:48:35] and kept me connected to dentistry. Uh, and just that conversation. And here I am now. So, [00:48:40] so, you know, it’s um. Yeah. So to answer your question, it’s it’s using [00:48:45] a lot of social channels, you know, and, and it’s also a lot of [00:48:50] warm leads and warm networking.

I mean, I’ve been a dentist for since, well, since 2009. [00:48:55] So I’ve got that kind of, you know, group of people that who I [00:49:00] could go to and say here, this is an idea. Could you have a look at it, or do you know somebody who would be [00:49:05] interested to have a look at that? And then. Yeah, and this is what was amazing. I did that [00:49:10] a few times. And then I just got text messages and messages on LinkedIn and people [00:49:15] contacting me saying, you know, I’d like to talk to you about this. And that’s where that then that, that’s [00:49:20] where it clicked there. You know, there’s a real need for this, because if it was just, you know, tumbleweed [00:49:25] and nobody was saying anything, I would say, no, this is not a good idea. But when you’ve got [00:49:30] people telling you and not just people, these are the end users telling you that, look, this is something that would really be a game [00:49:35] changer in dentistry. That’s when I started to say, hey, you know what? What are the common problems.

The [00:49:40] principals are saying they have?

Yeah, I think it’s lack of lack of real time data. [00:49:45] Yeah. Data being out of date when they have it in front of them and also having to [00:49:50] collate stuff from several different fragmented [00:49:55] solutions. So having data fragmented everywhere and then having somebody [00:50:00] there, you know, be it the be it the ops manager or the practice manager or the the [00:50:05] owner himself or herself actually sitting there and collating all of that. And I found what [00:50:10] I found from the research, a lot of it is still manual. Yes, you’ve got all the software, but the [00:50:15] end result is you still have to manually download all these spreadsheets and look at them and then highlight them, [00:50:20] and then try and draw conclusions from them, or send them to your accountant. And then you get something, [00:50:25] you know, a few weeks later, like a report. So the thing with the so [00:50:30] that was the problem. The problem was that the data is not real time. It’s not clear enough. [00:50:35] It’s still quite noisy. Uh, and it’s not in plain English. I mean, you [00:50:40] know, you you want something? Which. Yes, it’s numbers, but you want the numbers translated into [00:50:45] a format that’s quick and easy to understand. For somebody that doesn’t have a finance [00:50:50] degree or an MBA or anything like this.

And, and you want them to be able to make [00:50:55] a decision from that which is going to have a real ROI on their business. So [00:51:00] those were the problems that that was that were coming back to me from the feedback that I had, that look, we don’t have this at [00:51:05] the moment. And, you know, if you if you could provide a solution, uh, with AI and [00:51:10] the way the AI would be there is, is to make this quicker. So, yes, you have your [00:51:15] software which does everything, but there’s lots of software out there. There’s lots there’s loads of dashboards that [00:51:20] do the same thing. And yes, it’s nice to have a little dashboard and you can, But if you could use [00:51:25] the AI to actually interrogate that dashboard and say, you know, rather than spend [00:51:30] an hour going through everything, just ask a question. Hey, you know, could [00:51:35] you give me a report and compare last month to this month? Where are we? You [00:51:40] know what? Oh, and then it flags up. There’s been a drop in revenue, [00:51:45] but then it tells you why there’s been a drop in revenue. So it advise you that, look, you know, this [00:51:50] is potentially why there’s been a drop in revenue.

Like what?

Like what? Like say for example, for some [00:51:55] reason, you know, you can hone you can hone in on, say, a dentist in a practice and say for some [00:52:00] reason they suddenly there’s been a dip with, with with how they’re performing. Maybe last month [00:52:05] they were doing lots more crowns and this month they’re not. And it’s not to kind of, you know, get them in [00:52:10] front and interrogate them. Why are you doing this? But maybe there’s a reason. Maybe they’re burnt out. Maybe they’re going through something. [00:52:15] So it allows the the practice owner to then have a conversation with them and say, hey, you know, [00:52:20] is everything okay? What’s happening? Um, so yeah, that’s one. One aspect of it [00:52:25] is underperformance from a specific clinician, for whatever reason that is, and then [00:52:30] actually saying, you know, do you need to go on some extra courses? You know, do you want do you want a break. Do [00:52:35] you want some time out. And it’s quite personal for me because, you know, I got burnt out towards the end. So, you [00:52:40] know, that would be really useful for me as an associate if I had that, if somebody came and said, look, you know, we’ve noticed [00:52:45] this and it’s not to be Big Brother, but it’s to kind of, you know, do you need some help with something? [00:52:50] Yeah. The other, the other place in a kind of white space in diaries, you know. Yeah. [00:52:55] Where is all the white space? And sometimes we don’t realise that all these things are there.

Five minutes [00:53:00] here, ten minutes here. It all adds up. So if you could present that into a practice owner saying, look, [00:53:05] this is what you were doing, you know, this is your white space last month. This is your white space this month. And we [00:53:10] can actually use the AI intelligence machine learning to to learn [00:53:15] from your data and give you a little bit of a forecast. And what potential if you just didn’t change anything. [00:53:20] What would your white space be next month? And if you if you tweak this. So for example, if you [00:53:25] did a little bit more patient recall or you changed certain timings with how [00:53:30] you’re doing things, or you spoke to the associate and maybe say whether they want to go on [00:53:35] an implant course or do a few extra implants, or hire hire a specialist in to do for a few extra [00:53:40] implants. What effect would that have on your, you know, your revenue, your EBITDA and [00:53:45] your next months white space? So all of these things are there at the moment. I’m not saying they’re not there, [00:53:50] but it takes time to collate all this information together. And I think that’s the game [00:53:55] changer with AI, because it’s going to make the collation of that information, and the [00:54:00] presentation of that information to something concrete and actionable is going to make it lightning [00:54:05] quick.

But you’re having to API into the PMS. [00:54:10] Yeah, the sage, whatever they use for, for for CRM kind [00:54:15] of system that accounts. Yeah. You’re having to to get into all those systems. [00:54:20]

Yeah. Yeah.

It’s what a nightmare.

I mean, yes and no. I mean, plus. [00:54:25]

Yeah, you haven’t got a finance background yourself. I don’t know, an MBA or anything. [00:54:30] What are you doing about that? I mean, it sounds like such a mountain to climb. Are you breaking those down into smaller [00:54:35] parts? How do you.

100%. I think I’m a firm believer that, you know, leadership [00:54:40] is not about knowing everything yourself. Yeah, it’s about [00:54:45] being able to be humble enough to build the right team around you [00:54:50] to solve the problem. So I know where my strengths lie and I know where my weaknesses are. Now, [00:54:55] my kind of model for doing anything like this is hire the [00:55:00] talent who can do what you can’t do, or who’ve who’ve demonstrated that they’ve done it before, [00:55:05] and let and leverage their expertise rather than trying to reinvent the wheel [00:55:10] yourself. I mean, I haven’t got and as you mentioned, I’m a I’m a slightly older founder. I don’t have [00:55:15] the luxury, you know, to go back and say how I’m going to go now and I’m going [00:55:20] to do a computer science degree, then I’m going to go and do a finance degree, [00:55:25] then I’m going to go, it’s going to it’s going to be game over by that time. So [00:55:30] I’m a firm believer in in fractional talent. There’s there’s a big model [00:55:35] now called the fractional model where you essentially hire the top [00:55:40] talent as and when you need it. So you strategize it. Look, at the moment I need a product [00:55:45] team. So I’m going to go out and I’m going to hire the best product development team [00:55:50] who’ve done this before. You guys build a product. You know, my job is [00:55:55] as as a leader is the vision. And and to keep the vision on track and [00:56:00] your job is to execute the vision. And then once you’re done with that, right. What do we need [00:56:05] to do now? We need to go to market. Let’s hire a fractional talent on go to market. Let’s [00:56:10] hire a fractional talent on, you know, other aspects such as.

The [00:56:15] product phase.

Right now we’re at the product phase.

So are you doing the sprints and.

Yeah. [00:56:20] So we have a really good development team who are working on it as we speak. Um, [00:56:25] they’ve worked in this space before and I’m really a firm believer I [00:56:30] found them just through going and talking to people, you know, talking, going and [00:56:35] seeing these teams, seeing what they’ve worked on, asking the questions, saying, look, this is [00:56:40] my idea. You know, this is what my, my end users want, you [00:56:45] know, can you do it? Can you give me an example of how you’ve done it before? And [00:56:50] I have I’m not against outsourcing [00:56:55] stuff and it works really well. But I had this this vision that whatever I did, [00:57:00] I wanted to keep all the talent UK based. I wanted to keep everything that I’m doing. [00:57:05] The development team are all based here. Um, the legal team are all based here. The reason [00:57:10] is, you know, when you’re doing something and you’re you’re dealing with professionals, dentists, doctors. [00:57:15] You know, they need to have faith that what you’re proposing is that [00:57:20] software is going to be up to scratch in terms of data protection, GDPR, all [00:57:25] the latest legislation, and it’s going to be really high quality. And if if you have a problem, [00:57:30] you know it can be solved straight away. Now if I have a problem with anything I don’t need to worry [00:57:35] about. Oh, and it’s going to be 2:00 somewhere else.

I’ll ring somebody and then they get there. If [00:57:40] I have a problem with something, I can get it sorted out today. If an end [00:57:45] user has a problem, I get to know about it. I send it to the team. I say, look, [00:57:50] sort this out and it’s all done within the business day. Really. So that was my [00:57:55] vision. I wanted it to be accessible. I wanted it to be something where, you know, I [00:58:00] put my shoes in. I put myself in the shoes of the end user. What would I want if I have a problem, if I have a problem with [00:58:05] a piece of software and I ring somebody up, the worst thing is, you know, you go on [00:58:10] the chat support or you ring somebody up and you kept waiting and nobody really answers you and you. [00:58:15] Somebody comes back to you a day later. So I want this to be real time. If there’s any problem, [00:58:20] it gets solved straight away. So, you know, I’m a firm believer in, as you mentioned, [00:58:25] like the lean Start-Up. So kind of having a lean model, lean opex, having talent, [00:58:30] hiring people at the right time when it’s needed and not, you know, doing it at the [00:58:35] wrong time because it’s wasteful. Um, and I’m a firm believer as a Start-Up, you know? Yes, [00:58:40] hiring people and having that full team on board is a good [00:58:45] thing.

And you need that when the time is right, when you’re at a specific scale. But when you’re starting, you need to [00:58:50] be very agile. Um, and in order to be agile, you need to have a fractional model. So you, [00:58:55] you freelancers, contractors, people who know what they’re doing really [00:59:00] well and they’re really good at it. It goes back to the niche thing. You find somebody who’s an expert in their [00:59:05] niche, and you hire them for this certain amount of time and say, here’s the project, fulfil that. [00:59:10] Great. You’re done. Thank you. When we need you again, we’ll call you. Um. And that way, [00:59:15] if things go wrong as well, you can chop and change very quickly. Uh, you don’t need to worry about all the [00:59:20] headaches and hiring a full time staff and the pay and all the HMRC stuff around it. [00:59:25] And there’s, there’s, there’s a there’s there’s a moment for that and that’s necessary um, [00:59:30] to scale. And you know, when you have your culture and you want to build and, but at a Start-Up [00:59:35] stage when you’re just trying to go for an MVP and you’re trying to validate the market, you need to be quick, [00:59:40] you to be agile, and you need to be able to iterate very, very quickly.

So [00:59:45] how long have you been doing that? For how long? How long have you been working on the product?

Yeah. [00:59:50] So the product we’ve been working, uh, actually form the company in April 2025. [00:59:55] So it’s very, very new. I’ve had the idea for a long time. I mean, I’ve had the idea for, [01:00:00] I would say almost a year in my head just germinating, germinating. [01:00:05] And it got more serious. Obviously, when I knew that I wanted to [01:00:10] pivot away from the clinical dentistry side of things. And then when I realised [01:00:15] the potential impact something like this could have, I really wanted to focus on it full [01:00:20] time. Um, because it’s a full time job and I wanted to do it to the best of my ability. [01:00:25] So the actual, um, product we’ve it’s been germinating in my mind for over a year. [01:00:30] The actual kind of, you know, boots on the ground type of thing. And [01:00:35] having all the company incorporated and all the people signed up. I mean, that’s gone on since April. [01:00:40] So it’s very new, but it’s happening very fast. Um, and now I’m in it kind of, you know, [01:00:45] full time. Uh, so I’m on it 24 over seven. So it’s going to speed up.

And [01:00:50] you can you told me before, you reckon you’ve got a year’s runway before you need to raise.

Yeah, I [01:00:55] would say a year’s runway is, you know, six months would be nice. [01:01:00] But, you know, I’ve got a cushion for about a year. Um, so at the moment, yeah, I’m entirely [01:01:05] self-funding and I fully I’m fully committed and I really believe in this. So I’m putting [01:01:10] the money where my mouth is. So I want to I want to show that I’m committed to this. And I have skin [01:01:15] in the game, which is why I haven’t just gone on to to kind of raise straight away. And raising is important, but it [01:01:20] has to be done at the right time because you also, you know, when you’re raising it’s not just about, yeah, I’ve got loads [01:01:25] of money. You know, the way I think about investors and raising is you’re really you’re a steward [01:01:30] for their money. It’s somebody else’s money. You know, it’s a lot of pressure. You need to show [01:01:35] and give them a return on that money. That’s your reputation at the end of the day. Yes. So yeah raising [01:01:40] is good. And I you need to raise as a Start-Up or you’re not going to go anywhere. Um, we’re in the [01:01:45] process of that and we’re, we’re, we’re in talks with several VC firms, but that’s something that’s [01:01:50] upcoming.

Um, and I’m hoping once, you know, we can get in front of VCs and investors [01:01:55] the actual traction metrics to say, hey, look, this is our product, this is what people are saying [01:02:00] about it, and this is the ROI they’re getting from it. Um, then I think the money will come. [01:02:05] I think what you need to do, what I’ve learned is that if you’re if you have a product [01:02:10] where there’s a demand for it and you’re truly passionate about it, and you communicate that [01:02:15] well to people and you focus. Yes. And of course, there’s competitors. And of [01:02:20] course, the risk is somebody’s going to come and copy you, um, and put you out of business. But that’s life. [01:02:25] That’s business. That’s that’s entrepreneurship. And you have to be comfortable with that. But I think if [01:02:30] you can really, you know, kind of almost put that to the back of your mind. And, and I’m not [01:02:35] saying don’t worry about competitors, but don’t get fixated and obsessed with them. You [01:02:40] know, who you should be obsessed with. You should be obsessed with your customers.

Yeah.

Just be obsessed with your customers. And [01:02:45] then the money will follow that the money will follow. That’s my firm belief.

No, you’re absolutely right. [01:02:50] You’re absolutely right. I mean, the only issue with with AI is moving quick. So there’s going [01:02:55] to be quick, quick movers onto it. Yeah. Um.

100%. [01:03:00]

You know it’s it’s I don’t know what you mean about risk because someone [01:03:05] needs to make something like this. Yeah, and you’re right. That definitely [01:03:10] it’s all very fragmented at the moment. Um, all of AI. Right? It’s all very fragmented. [01:03:15]

It’s very noisy as well. There’s a lot of hype. There’s a lot of hype.

At the same time, it’s a good time to raise. [01:03:20] Yeah. For AI, right? Everyone I know who’s trying to raise for it, it’s something that isn’t AI is.

Yeah. [01:03:25] It’s finally starting to get tough.

Pissed off about AI being the only thing that investors are interested in. Yeah. [01:03:30] Um, we like to talk about mistakes on this pod.

Yeah.

Give [01:03:35] me one from dentistry and one from, uh, tech.

I [01:03:40] think from dentistry, I would say, um, [01:03:45] again, going back to the the kind of neck side of things, I think I pushed [01:03:50] it for a bit too long. Um, I kind of, you know, thankfully, you know, [01:03:55] I didn’t do anything catastrophic. I mean, patients were happy. I [01:04:00] still managed to kind of do very good quality work, even towards the end of kind of coming away [01:04:05] from dentistry where things were very hard, kind of with the manual dexterity. Um, [01:04:10] I think ignoring signs and putting things to [01:04:15] the back of my mind that my body was kind of not happy and kind of was breaking down. I think [01:04:20] my biggest clinical mistake was that ignoring those signs and pushing and pushing through, because [01:04:25] it’s not a sensible way to do things. Uh, and I’m proof that it isn’t. So [01:04:30] that would be my warning to people is don’t.

Don’t have insurance.

Yeah. And this is the other thing. Um, you [01:04:35] know, I would say, you know, the income protection side of things, the insurance [01:04:40] is yes, it’s expensive, but you know, when you look at it now, look at it from [01:04:45] where I’m standing from, it’s a it’s a hell of a lot more expensive now. So, you know, you [01:04:50] need to have these insurances in place. And I would say to younger dentists, you [01:04:55] know, when you’re coming into dentistry, you’ve got loads of companies trying to sell you things and insurance. [01:05:00] And this I would say, obviously you need all the basics. Yeah, it’s without [01:05:05] saying the indemnity and all that. But I would say in a really good income protection [01:05:10] do it from the start. And yes, you know it’s expensive and it’s another [01:05:15] monthly expense which you can deduct but and hopefully nothing. And you know, [01:05:20] God forbid anything happens. Hopefully it doesn’t. And you know, it runs its course and you’re happy. But if you need [01:05:25] that, you know, that’s when you’re going to miss it when you don’t have it. So I would say biggest, biggest [01:05:30] mistake kind of financially was not having that. Um, and I yeah, I went about it the other way and [01:05:35] I was like, you know, I’m going to go the property side of things and all that. But in hindsight it was probably foolish. [01:05:40]

And you’re the second dentist I’ve had on this week who had a. Yeah, something [01:05:45] that stopped them from practising. Wow. And didn’t have insurance. Yeah, I [01:05:50] thought I.

Was one of the only ones, but I’m.

Glad to know there’s plenty. I’m not the only one. There’s plenty of people, I think, especially when, [01:05:55] um, you know, there’s kids and mortgages and that. Then then it really does make a lot of sense, [01:06:00] doesn’t it? Yeah. Um, I mean, but there’s so many products you could buy, right? Critical [01:06:05] illness cover this, that and the other. Yeah, but I’m looking for a clinical mistake.

Clinical mistake?

An [01:06:10] actual clinical error.

An actual clinical. I would say, you know, I got into this [01:06:15] mindset of when I was doing this kind of six days a week, and [01:06:20] I want to try and maximise my earnings. I really heavily got into this. You know, I’m just [01:06:25] going to look on Instagram and what’s trending. I’m going to do that. And so I got into this oh [01:06:30] I’m going to do this full, you know, veneer smile cases. And it’s [01:06:35] not one of my strengths. Yeah I’d be very honest with you. It’s not one of my strengths.

Composite. [01:06:40] Or do you mean.

The porcelain veneers? Porcelain veneers. And I think [01:06:45] I started taking on a lot of cases which I shouldn’t have [01:06:50] taken on. The warning signs were there, you know, you had patients coming in. There was, [01:06:55] yes, they had stuff wrong with their smile and teeth and, you know, but it could have been maybe remedied [01:07:00] with less invasive work. But you’re always thinking about, oh, I could do this, and I could do that, and you could [01:07:05] earn X amount of money and the patients will, you know, for it. And yes, I want to do this. Um, [01:07:10] and I think that was my clinical mistake is taking on 1 or 2 of those patients and that that really bit [01:07:15] me because some of them really, you know, we put I remember one case well, she [01:07:20] was very happy. You know, we did the smile trial. Everything’s perfect. We [01:07:25] cemented it all in and she [01:07:30] looked at the mirror. And I’ll never forget this. She just burst [01:07:35] out into tears. She said, I hate them. After something I was like, and this [01:07:40] was like after, you know, three, four. Going back to the lab for the lad lab [01:07:45] shade match this was after.

So it’s not like I, I did it properly, but you know what [01:07:50] was wrong? It was my she wasn’t the right. I shouldn’t have done them in the first place. She was somebody [01:07:55] who had very high expectations. Maybe there was a bit of this body [01:08:00] dysmorphic disorder in there as well. And I kind of didn’t do a [01:08:05] proper history taking because I was I think I was too hell bent on, I’m [01:08:10] gonna get these veneers done and I’m gonna take I’m gonna take a before and after picture and I’m going to put it on Instagram, [01:08:15] I’m going to get a million likes. And, and I think I started getting into this mind [01:08:20] frame of like the social media dentistry. And I have to do that because that’s the way you earn money. And it was. [01:08:25] And I’m not gonna lie, it was, it was I’m not proud of it, but it was money driven decision. And it shouldn’t have [01:08:30] been, um, it should have definitely been. Look at the history, you know, [01:08:35] what are the red flags in this history and what.

Would they have been? What are you thinking, like some sort [01:08:40] of psychological issue?

Yeah. I think this patient.

We spent more time you would have got a spidey sense [01:08:45] for.

Yeah, I think I think if I spent more time actually digging into the motivations of why [01:08:50] the patient wanted specifically veneers. Because it could have. It could have been done with Invisalign [01:08:55] and it could have been done with like kind of bonding quite easily. Um, but and [01:09:00] it’s not that I didn’t mention that to her, but I actually allowed [01:09:05] her to talk me out of it. So. And I feel ashamed because I’m the professional. [01:09:10] I should be guiding her. But I felt that she actually guided me in a way and not not [01:09:15] not to kind of put the responsibility on somebody else because the responsibility was mine. I take full responsibility [01:09:20] for it as the professional, but I think my mindset was not [01:09:25] there with exploring the other things because I it was a confirmation bias. I was like, this [01:09:30] patient is having veneers and I’m doing veneers and I’ve sold the veneers and she’s signed the treatment plan, [01:09:35] and this is how much money I’m going to get and I’m gonna do it. And I think, you know, going [01:09:40] back because I went back and because what happened was.

What happened, what happened when she said, I hate them. What happened next? [01:09:45]

She complained. And, you know, I went to indemnity and there was a whole stressful [01:09:50] few months of writing letters back and forth. In the end, I gave her money back. So [01:09:55] not only didn’t I earn anything on that, but I actually lost probably 2 or 3 times what I had spent [01:10:00] on the chair side. Time getting her back five or 6 or 7 times after [01:10:05] work, during lunch to try and see what, what we could do to sort things out in the end. What [01:10:10] I did was, and what I was advised by the indemnity was, look, just, you know, ask her what she wants, which is [01:10:15] a full refund. And I gave it to her out of my own pocket and luckily, [01:10:20] touch wood, you know, it hasn’t gone anywhere after that. But that actually, [01:10:25] it put me actually, it put me off. Not just veneers. It put me off clinical dentistry for a long time. For [01:10:30] a few months afterwards, I was just a wreck. I was shying away [01:10:35] from even doing. I was just doing check ups and simple fillings. And you know, anybody who came to me with [01:10:40] anything, I was, oh, go see my colleague. I’ll refer you here. And I was like so shaken up about that. [01:10:45] So it really backfired. And I think all I needed to do was just stop, take a proper history. You [01:10:50] know, if somebody and and the red flags were I was probably [01:10:55] the sixth or seventh dentist, she’d come to see about this and other dentists hadn’t done it. And I didn’t [01:11:00] probe into why. Um, she had had several treatments before, [01:11:05] which she wasn’t happy with, and I didn’t probe into why. And [01:11:10] the main thing was that when I actually looked at her teeth, they were actually not that bad. Um, [01:11:15] so. And I didn’t probe that in a why do you want this unrealistic, [01:11:20] specific thing when actually your teeth are [01:11:25] not that bad? And maybe a little bit of, you know, you know, enlighten and a bit of bonding and [01:11:30] minimally invasive stuff could give you what you want. But I didn’t have the conversation. [01:11:35]

We’re discussing mistakes, right? That’s what we’re doing. We’re discussing mistakes. [01:11:40] Um, but okay, so she said I hate them. Did you offer to do them again or [01:11:45] did you by that time, had you figured?

I think what happened was by that time my [01:11:50] confidence was shot to bits.

So you didn’t want to do that?

I didn’t want to touch them because [01:11:55] I think and I tried redoing stuff like I offered to. I think what had [01:12:00] happened was she had she had lost confidence in me. Yeah. But [01:12:05] moreover, I had lost confidence in myself.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So I [01:12:10] would get to the point where when I saw the pop up from reception that she’s [01:12:15] sitting in reception.

Heart would sink.

I would start shaking. Yeah, [01:12:20] I anxiety so I would even even just like I would tell her, look, we’re just going [01:12:25] to have a consultation. I’m not doing anything. Don’t panic. It’s, you know, like take it [01:12:30] back to like, tell, show, do like you’re talking to like a child. It’s just. And I would be holding the mirror. [01:12:35] Not even a hand piece. I’ll be shaking. And I was like, do you know what you know? [01:12:40] And my and my colleagues at the practice, They’re really great guys. And [01:12:45] one of one of my friends and colleagues here, she’s at the practice. He’s been with me [01:12:50] a long time. He’s a great friend. He actually sat me down and said, listen, you know what? Don’t do anything else [01:12:55] because it’s not going to work well for you. You know, I’ll help you. I’ll talk to [01:13:00] her. You know, maybe she needs to see a different dentist. And this is where the camaraderie aspect of it [01:13:05] is so essential.

It’s interesting. After years of being a dentist, a situation like [01:13:10] that can can knock you off. Yeah. You know, and I guess it’s because after years of [01:13:15] being a dentist, you feel like you’ve figured it out. Yeah.

Yeah.

And you jumped [01:13:20] into something sort of with your eyes kind of closed. And it’s interesting, I like that. [01:13:25] That’s a that’s a good one. What about in tech?

Yeah. So I mean in tech I would say, [01:13:30] you know when you.

Mistakes every day.

Yeah. When you’re when you’re a founder [01:13:35] and you’re doing anything entrepreneurial to be honest, every day is a mistake. There’s [01:13:40] a mistake because you’re doing things for the first time. So, you know, I [01:13:45] would say main mistakes have been, you know, not talking to people sooner. [01:13:50] Actually kind of going in there with this attitude and ego like, oh, you [01:13:55] know, I’m a dentist, I’ve got this background, I’ve got all this knowledge. And, you know, I, I’m [01:14:00] the best person, you know. What I’ve learned is I’m probably the least best person to make decisions [01:14:05] when it comes to tech in itself, because I don’t have a tech background. [01:14:10] So, you know, with with a, with a Start-Up, what you’re doing is you’re [01:14:15] you’re learning and pivoting every day. Yeah. You know, you go there with one, you start [01:14:20] the day with one idea and then, you know, reality slaps you in the face. And actually, you know, this is not [01:14:25] going to work. So, I mean, every day is a mistake. And I [01:14:30] and again, it’s a cliche, people, people say, oh, it’s not a mistake. It’s a learning thing. But I think it’s [01:14:35] true. You have to reframe mistakes as kind of, okay, that didn’t [01:14:40] go so well, but let me take some learning aspects from that. So my next [01:14:45] mistake isn’t such a bad mistake. It’s less of a mistake. And what you’re doing is you’re [01:14:50] gradually whittling it down. So you know you’re always going to make mistakes. But they’re, you know, you [01:14:55] need to make sure the mistake isn’t catastrophic, that you can always come back from a mistake and you can [01:15:00] play the game again. So I think that’s what I’m having to learn is how to deal with uncertainty. Um, [01:15:05] and it’s very different from being a full time associate where you’ve got like this kind of income [01:15:10] coming in every day. So it’s a very different ball game because you have to be very comfortable with that [01:15:15] uncertainty and not knowing the answer.

Yeah.

Um, but what I’ve learned is that when [01:15:20] you’re in that space, in that head space, when you’re ruminating on stuff and [01:15:25] you’re worried and you’re anxious, the best thing is to actually talk to don’t, don’t, don’t bottle it up, [01:15:30] talk to people. You know, if you’ve got a problem, if I’ve got a specific technical problem, I [01:15:35] will pick the phone up and I will talk to the development team. And I will say, listen, you know what? This is [01:15:40] bugging me. Can you tell me in layman’s terms, what’s the solution to this? And [01:15:45] is is what I’m proposing, you know, is it possible? And if it’s not possible, [01:15:50] tell me what the workaround to that is. You know, and and talking to people, talking [01:15:55] to the right experts, as I said, you know, you don’t know all the answers, but there are people who’ve been through [01:16:00] that got, you know, got the t shirt, so to speak. Uh, and people who have made the [01:16:05] same mistakes you’re making now, and they’ve lived to tell the tale. So I think it’s having that humbleness and [01:16:10] putting your ego down a bit and saying, look, you know, I don’t know the answers to this. [01:16:15] Um, and yeah, I’m out of my depth, you know. Yeah. I don’t, I don’t have this expertise. [01:16:20] And you do. So please explain.

To me like an aha moment in tech. [01:16:25] Yeah. Like what did you think it was like. And then what, what what situation made you [01:16:30] realise. Yeah it’s a different way like because you know I can get my head [01:16:35] around clinical situations. But by the way, we’ve got a couple of developers upstairs, right? I [01:16:40] find it difficult, very difficult, the quality of the developers like [01:16:45] a huge question, right? Like how one guy can do ten [01:16:50] people’s work if he’s thinking, right. Yeah, yeah. Tell me any insights like with, [01:16:55] with regards to tech itself.

I think with regards to tech, what I’ve, what [01:17:00] I’ve found is that it’s always good to deal with, you know, rather [01:17:05] than say, I’m going to talk to a developer and I’m gonna, you [01:17:10] know, because when I was initially doing this, I mean, I tried kind of, um, you know, freelancing, [01:17:15] freelancing platforms and this, this stuff, there’s platforms there where you could kind [01:17:20] of, you know, have an interview with, like a freelancer. And I would be like, this is my idea. [01:17:25] And they’d be like, yeah, I can do this, this, this, this, this. And what I found is and that’s one of the mistakes, [01:17:30] is I had to cut those people quite quickly because, you know, when you’re dealing in [01:17:35] tech, it’s very much a team sport. You can have somebody who’s a [01:17:40] full stack developer and who could do everything from start to finish. But what you want [01:17:45] is you actually want your work distributed throughout a team, where each [01:17:50] person has a specific goal and a small part. And then overall, [01:17:55] you want a project head or a or a project manager [01:18:00] who’s not working on the project per se, not doing the coding, but is managing [01:18:05] that team. So it’s more of like a what’s called a squad model. So a squad model is, [01:18:10] you know, you and this is what we’re doing with our developers that we’re using is we’re using [01:18:15] the squad model where I have a project manager and I say, this is what I want to do.

He will then distribute [01:18:20] that amongst the talent in his team, because you can have somebody who’s, [01:18:25] again, like a general. I use the analogy like you can have a general dentist or you can have an endodontist or an implant [01:18:30] specialist. So I would say that, it’s better to say have a practice, [01:18:35] have have have the have the, you know, project manager and let him distribute [01:18:40] your project to somebody who’s really good at, say, the front end stuff [01:18:45] and then somebody who, who’s really good at the back end stuff. And that way what you’re [01:18:50] going to get is you’re going to get something which is a higher quality because these people, yes, they can do everything, [01:18:55] but it’s human nature that there’s always one thing that somebody enjoys doing more than [01:19:00] everything. And what you enjoy doing, you’re best at it. So even if you can do everything, you’re [01:19:05] always going to produce a better product. If you if you’re doing something that you enjoy. So that would be my, [01:19:10] my, my thing is that, you know, make sure you distribute it amongst the team because then you’ve always [01:19:15] got these biases going on. You’ve got these internal biases of people. So one person, one [01:19:20] developer may say, look, I’ve done this and I’m really happy with it. And their team-mate will say, [01:19:25] you know, it’s good. But you know, what have you thought about this way? And then it becomes a collaborative effect. [01:19:30] So that’s, that would be my, my input on that.

But now that you’ve left [01:19:35] your reflections on dentistry, because I really believe that that you only really find [01:19:40] out what you loved about it once you’ve stopped. Yeah. Um, and one thing that surprised me a lot [01:19:45] when I left dentistry, I left in 2012, was how hard it is [01:19:50] to make money outside of dentistry. It’s hard. Yeah. I mean, we’d [01:19:55] already started the business, but what are your reflections about that? You know, now that you’re [01:20:00] out of dentistry?

Yeah, I think, you know, I would say as dentist, [01:20:05] it’s.

What do you miss?

I miss the people.

Yeah. Me too.

I miss the people. I miss. [01:20:10] I miss the kind of, you know, banter with the [01:20:15] patients, with the team, you know, with, with, with the nurse. And it’s a very [01:20:20] it’s a very unique dynamic because, you know, you’re in a room for most of the day and [01:20:25] you’re there, you’re spending more time there than you do with your own family, and you [01:20:30] get to really know your nurse, and you get to know your reception, and you get to know your [01:20:35] colleagues. And it’s kind of like the agenda. And you read the.

Agenda, the conversation agenda. [01:20:40]

100%. And being the dentist there, obviously, you know, it’s a bit of an ego trip because [01:20:45] all the everybody’s talking around your stuff and suddenly you come out and you’re like, actually, [01:20:50] you’re like a very small cog and nobody really gives a gives a crap. And like, [01:20:55] so that’s kind of like the that was the humbling thing. So I really missed the kind of that [01:21:00] routine of getting up, you know, putting on your, your tunic, putting on your loops [01:21:05] and then going and talking to all these people and finding out, you know, how their lives going and, you know, [01:21:10] how’s your patient’s life going and what happened in her life last week and then and [01:21:15] now you’re saying, you know, I’ll see you again tomorrow and that kind of routine and yes, [01:21:20] the money side of things, obviously, we’re very lucky that we have a profession where, you know.

I know [01:21:25] it’s hard work, dude. I know it’s hard work. I know you broke your neck doing it. Yeah, yeah, but it’s easy money. Yeah, [01:21:30] in a way. Yeah. Like be nice to people. Yeah. Don’t hurt people. Yeah. [01:21:35] And you’ll be okay.

100%.

What about. What was the bit about dentistry that you realised you hated?

I [01:21:40] think, you know, with me, I love the people aspect of it. And [01:21:45] to me, because in dentistry, I learned to [01:21:50] love dentistry over the years. It wasn’t my first love. Yeah. You know, so I learned to [01:21:55] love it. I got towards the end of dentistry. I started getting to the point [01:22:00] where I didn’t enjoy a lot of the clinical work. I liked the bits that I was [01:22:05] good at, like I liked the cerec. But I found I started cutting out other stuff [01:22:10] and I was quite spoilt in my practice because we had specialists there. So [01:22:15] when an endo would come in, I’d be like, ah, it’s not, I don’t enjoy endo, you know, I’m gonna just give [01:22:20] this to the endodontist oral surgery. I’ll give this to the oral surgeon. So I towards the [01:22:25] end, I started getting a bit jaded with the clinical work. Yeah, and it’s [01:22:30] more of the complaint side of things.

That side of course.

That that really.

What you said about, you know, [01:22:35] if you’re not there, you’re not you’re not working. Like the turning up piece. Yeah. I find hard [01:22:40] as a dentist. Yeah. Keep turning up every day at 9 a.m., like 8 a.m., whatever time it is. Yeah. [01:22:45] Day in, day out. Yeah. And, you know, it gets monotonous. I like to stay up at night sometimes. [01:22:50] Yeah. Yeah. And you can’t do that as a dentist. I mean, you can, but it’s not a good idea. Right. [01:22:55] Yeah. Um, that side of it, the bit about business that I hate is [01:23:00] meetings. Yeah. I don’t like meetings.

Yeah. They can be very unproductive as well if they’re not structured [01:23:05] well. Boring. Yeah, yeah.

Boring even. I find you know what? What amazes me, man? [01:23:10] Even if it’s my company. Yeah. My subject.

Yeah.

Our [01:23:15] employees. Yeah. Even those meetings I hate. Yeah. Yeah. And. And what really gets to me [01:23:20] is what must they be feeling like? You know, it’s not. It’s not their company. It’s not [01:23:25] their subject. They’re just being paid to be there sort of thing. Yeah. I hate meetings. Yeah. [01:23:30] I mean, how many meetings is one of the best things about the industry?

I think this is the one thing I [01:23:35] found as well, that when I stopped and then suddenly, you know, with the Start-Up, you’re [01:23:40] having so many meetings in the day, and then you have this calendar, and most people.

Have [01:23:45] got meetings all day.

Like most people in business.

That’s what.

They’re doing. Yeah. 9 to 5 and.

Meeting after [01:23:50] meeting after meeting after meeting. Yeah. It does my head in, man. Maybe ADHD whatever. You know [01:23:55] like some of that in it.

And I’m somebody who I like. You know when you have a meeting I’m almost like, you know. [01:24:00] Right. What’s the agenda? Bang bang, bang bang. Let’s just get on with it. I’m not even.

Happy with the. Hi. How’s everyone [01:24:05] doing? Peace. You know, it does my head, you know. Yeah, but but but you realise that’s [01:24:10] important as well. It is that all of that’s important.

Yeah, that’s one thing actually, which I think really is [01:24:15] a transferable skill which I found helpful from dentistry, is spending all those years talking [01:24:20] to patients and talking to people and trying to calm down nervous patients. It helps [01:24:25] in a, in a, you know, Start-Up and business environment when you have to just talk to different people. [01:24:30]

It’s interesting then transferrable skills, because a lot of people are looking to either [01:24:35] leave or cut down. What would you say they are? That piece that you can talk to to [01:24:40] lots of different types of people? Yeah.

What else I would say, you know, talking [01:24:45] to people. Yes. But it’s is that attention to detail that you have because as [01:24:50] a dentist, obviously everything is so precise and you’re doing precise work and [01:24:55] there’s a certain mindset that you develop clinically that when [01:25:00] you actually take it into another arena, like business or talking to people [01:25:05] or kind of, you know, what I’m finding now is that I’m taking [01:25:10] that same precision that I did in like a crown prep. And when I’m trying to do [01:25:15] something with a business or talking to someone, I have that same precise agenda [01:25:20] in my mindset. Okay, I’m going to a meeting. You know, let me find out every little piece [01:25:25] of information I can. Let me do my research. Let me make sure that I’m asking the right questions so [01:25:30] that a perfectionist type of mindset. So a lot of dentists, they’re perfectionists. That’s that’s kind [01:25:35] of what got you into dental school and passed all these hurdles. You have to be a bit of a perfectionist. So that’s [01:25:40] one transferable skill that that’s really useful, because a lot of times you find that, you know, [01:25:45] when you can really engage another person and they know that you’re listening to them and they know that you’re [01:25:50] asking really good questions, it opens them up and it opens up a lot of business opportunities. [01:25:55]

If you go to someone and you’re like, yeah, no, this is, you know, this is what I want. And you’re kind of talking at them [01:26:00] and you’re not quite listening. And they can gauge that. You’re not very open with what you’re saying, and you [01:26:05] haven’t really done your research and, you know, they switch off. So I would because my, [01:26:10] my one fear was that, you know, I’m trained to be a dentist. I can’t do dentistry anymore. What am I going to do? You [01:26:15] know, and I always I always had this fear that I used to say this to people that, oh, you [01:26:20] know, in dentistry, there’s no transferrable skills. You know, once you’re a dentist, you have to be a dentist. It’s not like, you know, you [01:26:25] know, computer coding or finance. Like you can’t just go move to another country and work from home and do your coding [01:26:30] and do all this. But actually, you know, having left now and reflected on that and having had that identity [01:26:35] crisis type thing, it’s forced me to look at the transferable skills with a different frame of [01:26:40] mind. And it’s really, really amazing how many transferable. We’re very lucky, actually. [01:26:45] There’s a lot of transferable skills, and these skills are very hard to replicate from other, other [01:26:50] professions.

What keeps you up at night?

Keeps [01:26:55] me up at night. I would actually say, you know, ironically, it is tech. It is AI and not [01:27:00] not from a, you know, I want to make a business out of it. But what effect it’s going to have on my kids. [01:27:05]

Oh yeah.

Yeah, yeah, it’s it’s scary in a way, because obviously everybody [01:27:10] knows that, you know, social media at a certain age it’s not good. And you get all this issue [01:27:15] about kind of, you know, I didn’t have to worry about kind of, you know, bullying was only in school, [01:27:20] you know, now it’s like people are bullied, kids are bullied on social media. And then with AI, [01:27:25] you know, the frightening thing is that AI is becoming so good [01:27:30] now with kind of faking stuff, videos and, and and kind [01:27:35] of it’s, you know, we’re okay because our brains have already formed. [01:27:40] We’ve gone past those formative years. So if we see something, [01:27:45] we can critically appraise that and say, okay, that’s AI. It’s not quite realistic. My [01:27:50] kids, they are they are going to be formed by this media. [01:27:55] They’re going to be formed by AI content. So their brains, when they come to our [01:28:00] age, they’re already going to have this programming in there where they may not be able to distinguish so [01:28:05] easily what’s fact and what’s fiction.

Well, I don’t think give it three years. I don’t think we’re [01:28:10] going to be able to.

Yeah, probably not. And that’s what’s scary is I want them to kind of I [01:28:15] don’t I don’t want it. I don’t want to come across as like a Luddite that, you know, you have. No, [01:28:20] no, technology is bad. Of course it’s amazing. It’s what you do with it. But I want [01:28:25] to kind of give my kids that kind of upbringing where I want them to be kids as long as possible. [01:28:30] I want them to go run around in a field and play up a tree and do all this stuff. [01:28:35] And we’re trying our best to limit all these screen time and things like this. So, you know, at [01:28:40] home, I mean, it’s we I’ve got used to it now, but we’re really militant with TV to the point that [01:28:45] my, my wife and I mean, we I can’t tell you the last time we sat and watched TV because we sit down and we talk [01:28:50] to them and we read to them. I’m a big advocate because I’ve got Kindle and stuff, but to me, I still see that my [01:28:55] son’s looking at me and he’s like, that’s a screen. So I always have this thing that when I go home, you know, [01:29:00] and and it’s hard now with the Start-Up because it’s 24 over seven. But I put the phone away and I’m like, [01:29:05] let me read in front of me, even if I’m reading my own book, but I’m reading in front of them so they they see [01:29:10] what’s dad doing, you know, he’s reading. Let me come and sit next to him and be like, what are you reading? And I’d be like, I’m reading [01:29:15] this, and I’ll kind of explain it to them in a, in a in kids language. So what keeps me up at night? [01:29:20] I think it is the pace of change in technology, and it’s a real big opportunity [01:29:25] with AI now. But it’s also it can potentially be a very destructive technology [01:29:30] as well, if it’s not used in the right way because.

It’s so powerful.

Yeah, it’s very powerful.

But [01:29:35] when I say what keeps you up at night? What I really meant was in the business. Like in the business. What what bothers [01:29:40] you? What’s what’s the is it competitive?

Yeah. What bothers me is I’m going to wake up tomorrow [01:29:45] and I’m gonna, you know, turn on my computer and I’m gonna see [01:29:50] what I’ve proposed.

Already finished.

One company’s already done it. Yeah. And, [01:29:55] you know, they’re like a big.

Half the price.

Half the price, and.

Twice as good.

Twice as good. And [01:30:00] what I what I wanted to do, which would have taken me like six months. They’d done in two weeks. Yeah, yeah. [01:30:05] And then, um.

That’s everyone in business has that.

And I’m.

Thinking.

Oh, [01:30:10] crap. You know, like, back to the drawing board. Yeah. So that’s my biggest fear. And [01:30:15] that really does keep me up at night where, you know, I’m worried. And this is the [01:30:20] amazing thing. I used to think in dentistry, I’ve got so much to worry about. You’ve got patience, you’ve got this and all. That kind [01:30:25] of pales in comparison in a bit, because at least you know that whatever’s going to happen, nobody’s going to nick your patience. I [01:30:30] mean, you still have to go there and do the Crown prep. So yeah, that’s that’s what keeps me up at night whether I’m still going [01:30:35] to have a viable business tomorrow.

And the weird thing about it is that, let’s say everything [01:30:40] goes really well. And in six years time, you’re profitable and all that. [01:30:45] It could all go to 0 in 6 years and one day time when the same thing happens [01:30:50] again. And that’s not the case in dentistry. Like you’ve you’ve got that business [01:30:55] and that has a value. Yeah. You know it’s not going to zero. Yeah. [01:31:00]

The nature of the game is not going to change.

Yeah. Yeah. And you said you considered opening a practice [01:31:05] before doing this.

Yeah.

Um. What [01:31:10] made you? Was it? Was it the scratching, the software itch that made you think, [01:31:15] rather than opening and running a practice without being the the the practitioner? Yeah. You’re going [01:31:20] to do software. Was it the fact that your parents had pushed you into dentistry?

I think there’s an [01:31:25] aspect. There’s an aspect of, you know, you know, I’m going to show everyone, like, you know, I wanted [01:31:30] to do something from the beginning, and now I’m gonna, you know, show everyone that, yeah, I can [01:31:35] be successful at that as well. So there’s an ego thing behind it as well that. Yeah, I want to kind of prove [01:31:40] that. Yeah, I want to scratch that itch. Yeah. Um, that’s one aspect of it. The other aspect [01:31:45] of it is, you know, it’s not you know, I’m a firm believer that if you want to [01:31:50] do something, you really have to enjoy and be passionate about what [01:31:55] you’re doing. Yeah. Um, in order to, to kind of, you know, be be good at it [01:32:00] and have the endurance and the stamina because it’s a lot of stamina. You have to, you know, setback after [01:32:05] setback, as you know, you know, you have to you have to. It’s the it’s the long haul. And I don’t [01:32:10] think you’re going to be successful if your heart’s not in it. And for me, I mean, I [01:32:15] loved being an associate, and I saw the hardships people had as practice owners. And, [01:32:20] you know, that aspect of kind of owning a practice, it just and [01:32:25] it never I’m somebody who I would say, never say never.

I mean, things always change. [01:32:30] But my heart wasn’t fully in that. And I didn’t want to go into something without [01:32:35] giving it my all, because if I wanted to open a practice just the way my mindset is, I want it to [01:32:40] be the best practice and I want it to be amazing. I just don’t want to open it just for the [01:32:45] sake of opening it and earning some money or having a business. I always got this thing where [01:32:50] I want to be the best at something, and I felt that I had this internal passion for tech [01:32:55] and AI, and I just really wanted to pursue that because I felt this is [01:33:00] a pivotal moment. And, you know, you could yeah, you could always, you know, open a practice at some point. But this, this [01:33:05] moment, in this inflection point we’re at now, it’s not going to come again. So that’s why I [01:33:10] wanted to do this. Yeah. So it’s scratching an itch, but it’s also a calculated risk where I’ve [01:33:15] looked at the kind of inflection point we’re at now and it’s an opportunity. [01:33:20] And I just felt I had to take that opportunity because I didn’t want to look back and regret that I didn’t [01:33:25] do it.

Amazing, man. The you know, the risk regret [01:33:30] equation. Yeah, is an interesting one. You know, that’s that’s where you’re at. [01:33:35]

Yeah. I mean risk risk is actually I’d say one more thing about risk. You know, risk is, is quite [01:33:40] is relative. Because if you look at it, I was always told, you know, you know, dentistry [01:33:45] is a very safe profession. You know, you’re always going to have a job, you’re always going to have income coming in. And [01:33:50] now what’s happened with my neck? The fact is actually there is risk in dentistry as well. [01:33:55] You know, one day you maybe you can’t do that. I mean, there’s a risk with everything. There’s a risk crossing the road. So [01:34:00] I think risk is relative. And I think you have to become comfortable with risk, and we’re very lucky [01:34:05] in dentistry. But I would say it’s not risk free. So make sure if you’re, you know, people who are [01:34:10] still in the thick of it now, make sure that you’re not only just focusing on dentistry, but [01:34:15] you take a bit of a step back and, and just kind of look at the risk profile [01:34:20] of your life in general and try and de-risk it as much as you can away from just the dental [01:34:25] side of things. That would be my piece of advice for, you know, younger colleagues or, you know, peers at the [01:34:30] moment.

Is there a website?

Yeah. So we have a website. It’s, uh ww [01:34:35] Dental.

Com Dental.

Dental. So it’s Dental. Cfo [01:34:40] Dental CFO. Com and we have a website and, uh, we’ll, we’ll be [01:34:45] working on our product and we’ll be launching soon. So if anybody’s interested, just drop [01:34:50] your email. I’d be happy to chat, chat you through it and explain what we’re doing.

Let’s end it on the [01:34:55] usual questions. Yeah.

The deep ones.

I’ve got that deep fantasy [01:35:00] dinner party. Three guests.

Oh, yeah.

Dead or alive?

Okay, I would say number [01:35:05] one. Um. Nikola Tesla, Nikola Tesla. [01:35:10] Just just just to get into the mindset, you know, of somebody who kind of was [01:35:15] so clear about how he imagined the future and so obsessed with it, you know, even [01:35:20] when, like, the whole world didn’t really it was pretty much against his ideas. And he didn’t have a great life. [01:35:25] But, you know, somebody who was so obsessed and clear about the future, and he built a lot of the infrastructure [01:35:30] to get into the mindset of the guy. I think number two, um, would be, uh, [01:35:35] Doctor Fei-Fei Li. And if you’re familiar, she’s actually the ex-chief Google [01:35:40] AI scientist who worked at Google Cloud, and she was one of the early pioneers. So she actually, [01:35:45] um, was a pioneer of something called ImageNet, which was actually the background [01:35:50] of how the very early wave of these AI learning models were trained. They [01:35:55] were trained on that software. Um, and just to pick her brains about how [01:36:00] she balances this scientific [01:36:05] innovation and this powerful technology of AI with social responsibility, [01:36:10] because she’s very big in kind of ethical AI and human centred AI. And even back then she [01:36:15] was kind of saying about how dangerous it could be.

So it’s how she’s managed to balance the kind [01:36:20] of the innovative aspects of doing that with the social responsibility side [01:36:25] of things. That’s very interesting. Um, the third one, I would say this is more from, [01:36:30] I would say more like a philosophical or spiritual bent. I would say Lao Tzu, the ancient [01:36:35] Chinese philosopher. Just because, you know, his his kind of I love his philosophy [01:36:40] of kind of ego and integrity, and he spoke a lot about [01:36:45] doing less, but doing it with more intention. So [01:36:50] rather than doing lots of things, just focus down. But what you’re doing, do it with more intention. [01:36:55] And I think his philosophy, you can take it into anything. I mean, you can take it into business, [01:37:00] into your spiritual life, into how you teach your kids. So I really [01:37:05] love his his work. And I think his, his work, especially how it can [01:37:10] pertain to kind of leadership, is he his philosophy is that, you know, leaders are [01:37:15] often often quiet, they’re often grounded, and they’re often [01:37:20] purpose driven. So I think if you can put those things into, you know, in any anybody can put [01:37:25] those into their life, it would be a positive.

How would you like to be remembered?

I [01:37:30] I [01:37:35] would say I would, I would like to be remembered as somebody [01:37:40] who turned adversity [01:37:45] into a purpose. And I would like to be remembered as a father [01:37:50] who showed his kids what in a resilience [01:37:55] and reinvention. Looks like a founder who kind of stood [01:38:00] up for change in dentistry and not just for profit, but for progress. [01:38:05] And I would say I want to be remembered as somebody who helped [01:38:10] his fellow peers and clinicians, you know, feel less overwhelmed [01:38:15] by business and technology and leadership. I think if I could, if [01:38:20] I could, somebody could turn around and ten, 15, 20 years time and say, you know, thank [01:38:25] you. You know, you’ve really helped us, helped that with your software or whatever, whatever [01:38:30] it is you do, that would be amazing.

It’s very impressive, man. [01:38:35] It’s a it’s a it’s a story. Right. It’s it’s it’s a, it’s an [01:38:40] interesting story that you’ve got, it’s very impressive that you’re like sort of rising out of the, [01:38:45] the nightmare that it is. Yeah. I mean, I think all of us as dentists [01:38:50] have that in the little thing in the back of our mind of what if something happens that [01:38:55] I can’t practice anymore? Yeah. Um. So. Well done. Best of. Best of luck [01:39:00] to you.

Thank you very.

Much. And I’ll be keeping keeping an eye on you. Hopefully.

Thank you. Sir.

The whole thing, [01:39:05] uh, works out really well for you. Thanks, man.

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

This [01:39:10] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one [01:39:15] on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:39:20] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

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