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[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. [00:00:35] The podcast where you get to go one on one with [00:00:40] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:50] gives me great pleasure to welcome Chiara Bourgault onto the podcast. [00:00:55] Chiara has had an excellent international kind of training and [00:01:00] finally end up in London, which is nice. Um, yeah. I grew up in Spain. [00:01:05] Uh, one of your parents is French. One’s Italian. Exactly. And then, uh, a bit of [00:01:10] time in Brazil and then a bit of time in Milan, and then [00:01:15] the. What’s the name of the course you did in New York?

Chiara Burgio: Uh, NYU, um, [00:01:20] advanced aesthetic program. Now, now they just changed the name because Doctor [00:01:25] APA um, it was now it’s named after him because he basically. [00:01:30]

Payman Langroudi: A bit like before it was Rosenthal. Exactly.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah, exactly. So now he’s also [00:01:35] a little bit involved in the program as well. So. Okay, nice.

Payman Langroudi: So did [00:01:40] that of course. And then straight away came back. Came to London.

Chiara Burgio: Exactly. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Why London?

Chiara Burgio: Well, [00:01:45] actually, now, uh, it’s been a while that all my siblings live, live in London. [00:01:50] And I guess after having international experience, [00:01:55] and especially when I was in New York two years, I realised I missed, um, [00:02:00] being close to my family. So yeah, that was basically the.

Payman Langroudi: Your parents [00:02:05] still in Madrid?

Chiara Burgio: My parents? Yeah. Lived between Madrid and Milan because my dad is still working in [00:02:10] Italy and they go back and forth. Um, because we grew up in Madrid. So, yeah, [00:02:15] that’s our home. So, yeah, whenever.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got brothers and sisters here now.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. [00:02:20] One brother and two sisters.

Payman Langroudi: I think dentists as.

Chiara Burgio: Well. No, no one in my family.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Chiara Burgio: No. [00:02:25] No. And I’m the first one. No one is in dentistry or medicine at all.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:02:30] your kid number?

Chiara Burgio: What for?

Payman Langroudi: Your last.

Chiara Burgio: One.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I can see it. I can.

Chiara Burgio: See.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:02:35] can see cheekiness in you. You know, there’s a kid. Number four is most likely to be a billionaire.

Chiara Burgio: Really? [00:02:40] Yeah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Because kid number one becomes, like, whatever. Clever. And everyone tells him [00:02:45] he’s clever. And then number two becomes sporty, number three becomes funny, and number four just there isn’t anything [00:02:50] left. So ends up becoming really, like, inventive. Yeah. Does [00:02:55] that resonate.

Chiara Burgio: Maybe, I don’t know. I guess I just want it to be different [00:03:00] in a way. Um, I, I was actually gonna follow [00:03:05] the same path as my siblings and study just business and economics, and I just [00:03:10] changed my mind last minute. Oh, really? And. Yeah. And then I decided to go for dentistry, and [00:03:15] I wasn’t sure.

Payman Langroudi: Wasn’t dentistry.

Chiara Burgio: I knew I knew some dentists, so I [00:03:20] did kind of a few days training before, before I started [00:03:25] dentistry, I went to my, to my old dentist and I just.

Payman Langroudi: Stood.

Chiara Burgio: Around some [00:03:30] time. Yeah. Spend some time there.

Payman Langroudi: But I always think, like, look, my daughter right now is considering what A-levels to do, [00:03:35] and we’re kind of trying to push her into becoming a dentist. Yeah. And then we said, oh, let’s send her to something I actually thought [00:03:40] about. Corey is the right person to send her to.

Chiara Burgio: Are you sure?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I haven’t told Corey [00:03:45] this. Yeah, right. Um, but but but I thought, [00:03:50] you know, like, what’s she gonna do? She’s going to go there. She’s going to stand in the room, not not see anything. Yeah. So [00:03:55] you kind of that experience of standing in the room make you want to be a dentist or what? [00:04:00]

Chiara Burgio: No. So I guess my first instinct was, okay, [00:04:05] I’ll follow what my siblings did. But then after thinking a bit more about it, I wasn’t [00:04:10] really convinced, and I started exploring more options. And then kind of medicine [00:04:15] came up. And then I did this four days at my dentist. But then that. That’s [00:04:20] not the whole story. This is actually I, I, I think I’ve told very few people this story, but [00:04:25] yeah. So the last year of school, I, I was applying to all these unis and I [00:04:30] wasn’t sure. And actually, uh, the daughter of a friend of my mom, [00:04:35] she started speaking about this guy in Paris that, um, basically [00:04:40] specialised in psychoanalysis and would basically you would [00:04:45] have a session with him and he would tell you what you’re good at. How is your personality? Um, which job [00:04:50] basically would fit well for you? Yeah. Um, and I went there, [00:04:55] actually, I went to Paris because I at that time, I still had some family there. Um, [00:05:00] and I went to meet this guy, and it was crazy. I mean, [00:05:05] he he really he really nailed down my personality with just looking [00:05:10] at my face, my hands, my handwriting. So the handwriting was a big [00:05:15] part of his analysis. And I remember he would just. There was just a light, and [00:05:20] he would look at my face for five, ten minutes just looking at it in my hands. And. [00:05:25] Yeah, and he basically told me what I would be good at. And I hadn’t told him anything [00:05:30] about dentistry or anything.

Payman Langroudi: So it was like an element of voodoo.

Chiara Burgio: A little bit. Yeah, it was a bit [00:05:35] weird for sure.

Chiara Burgio: Um, but yeah, he just described me and told me, [00:05:40] okay, you you have very good hand skills. Um, and.

Payman Langroudi: It’s that thing, [00:05:45] right? They make you handwrite. The handwriting is ridiculous.

Chiara Burgio: Pages and pages.

Payman Langroudi: Had a big argument [00:05:50] with the teacher. Once my kids go to French school as well, right? And I said, the kid’s never [00:05:55] going to use a pen. So why are you giving him so many?

Chiara Burgio: I mean, now for sure.

Payman Langroudi: But. Okay. And [00:06:00] then you went with that.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. And then he basically told me which professions would be good for me. [00:06:05] And the first choice he gave me was neurosurgeon. Um, and I was like, okay. [00:06:10] Um, and then he gave me a few more options. Everything related in medicine. [00:06:15] He didn’t say dentistry, though. So at the end of the session, I told him, look, I applied to economics. [00:06:20] I applied to dental school. I’m not sure what I want to do. And he just looked at me and he was like, no, [00:06:25] do dentistry. It’s going to be you’re going to be very, very happy. And I don’t [00:06:30] know, I’m not saying it’s the reason I, I chose dentistry, but I think I needed kind of that push, [00:06:35] uh, from someone. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So normally I’d then go step by step. [00:06:40] What did you do next? But I’m quite interested in this idea of, you know, when you [00:06:45] finish dental school and you see your first patient. Yeah. Sometimes I don’t [00:06:50] know about you. I got this feeling of God was. Is that was that all it was for to be in this room with this [00:06:55] nurse and this patient? Now you’ve done that and you’ve done all this extra [00:07:00] training now, and you’re 28 and you’d imagine, like the world’s at [00:07:05] your fingertips right now, but have you got that feeling ever of like, you know, because because [00:07:10] when you do something like density, it’s almost like you take a deep breath, go underwater, [00:07:15] you study for five years, then you’ve gone straight into further studies. You know, a [00:07:20] large part of your life has been dedicated to this profession. Yeah. Now you’re at the [00:07:25] end of the beginning. Do you have anything like that, a feeling like that, that you. Maybe [00:07:30] I should have been an architect.

Chiara Burgio: Sometimes, for sure. Um, I don’t think [00:07:35] it happened right after dental school because I worked for a few years. Um, but I guess [00:07:40] it was maybe after I got some more postgraduate training. And I guess the feeling I had [00:07:45] was the less you know, the less you’re stressed, right? And then the more you learn, [00:07:50] the more you realise how little you know. Yeah, true. And then that’s when you actually [00:07:55] realise, oh, shit. Like, I actually need to learn a lot more and a lot more. [00:08:00] And it’s kind of, you feel like a never ending thing that you have to keep studying. And [00:08:05] I guess for a lot of professions, you study, you do, you do university and then you’re done. You [00:08:10] know, you, you just do your job and you learn how to do the job, but there’s not so much extra [00:08:15] studying. And yeah, my family and my boyfriend, they’re always telling me like, wow, yeah, you [00:08:20] always go to courses. You’re always doing things like, why? Why do you need to do that? You’ve [00:08:25] studied already for so long, but you have to keep going.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about when [00:08:30] you went to Brazil. Yeah. And the exchange program from your [00:08:35] Madrid University.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. So it was a tough time for me before [00:08:40] going to Brazil because my dad had been sick. Um, and [00:08:45] I was in a in a relation. I just broke up with my boyfriend at the time. Uh, [00:08:50] and I, I think I really needed to get away from everything. [00:08:55] And Brazil was a great experience because first of all, dentistry in Brazil, [00:09:00] I think is one of the best in the world. And I just went there in this, [00:09:05] you know, almost random city, uh, which was Natale. I [00:09:10] mean, it is a very big city, but whenever you speak to someone, you’re like, okay, I went to Natal. [00:09:15] They’re like, where is that? Brazil is so big. Yeah. Um, and it was it was [00:09:20] really a life changing experience. I would say, um, I was also in an environment [00:09:25] which wasn’t that safe, obviously, because Brazil is not the safest place [00:09:30] in the world. So I had to learn, you know, how to be careful. And. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Was [00:09:35] it the first time you were away from home?

Chiara Burgio: Um, yeah. For that long? Yes. And that far [00:09:40] for sure.

Payman Langroudi: And so the type of thing they were teaching there was that specific [00:09:45] to that area? I mean, like, what are your reflections on the differences between Spanish [00:09:50] dentistry, Brazilian dentistry, Italian UK, what kind of [00:09:55] things have you learned?

Chiara Burgio: I think I’ve learned that every place has its positives [00:10:00] and negatives, but for sure dentistry is very different in every country. You would think, oh, [00:10:05] you know, dentistry is a universal thing. No, not at all. The patients are different the way you have to [00:10:10] handle the patients. It’s the relationship you have with them is different. Um, and Brazil [00:10:15] gave me that thing where, you know, even if you’re young, it doesn’t matter. You can [00:10:20] just push yourself and do things. Whereas in other places like Italy or, you [00:10:25] know, maybe Spain, they’re more like, okay, if if you’re young, you don’t [00:10:30] have a lot of experience, don’t do it in Brazil. They did. They really push you to to do [00:10:35] a lot. And I remember I wasn’t even a dentist. I was placing implants in Brazil. [00:10:40] Yeah. I’ve placed I’ve placed a lot of implants there. Um, and, [00:10:45] you know, I hadn’t even done a root canal. So it was crazy. Yeah, it was crazy, but [00:10:50] it really it really helped me because after that, I lost a lot of the fear. You know, the classic [00:10:55] fear you have in the beginning where you’re really stressed about treating a patient. I really lost [00:11:00] that in Brazil, because.

Payman Langroudi: I bet you pulled a lot of teeth out as well, right?

Chiara Burgio: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which is an important [00:11:05] training. We don’t get very much nowadays. Yeah. So then what about Milan? Why did you move to [00:11:10] Milan?

Chiara Burgio: So I was actually supposed to move to Paris after dental school. Um, [00:11:15] because in Madrid, it’s. The situation in in Spain is quite tricky. There are a lot [00:11:20] of dentists. So it’s not the best environment unless you have your own practice. [00:11:25] So Paris is a really good option. But yeah, last minute I chose to go to Milan because [00:11:30] I, I met some dentists there, um, randomly, and they all told me, no, come, come [00:11:35] to Milan. You know, it will be great. Uh, you will learn a lot. And it’s true. The level in Italy [00:11:40] is, I would say, like in Brazil, it’s very, very high. Even, you know, basic dentists, [00:11:45] they are extremely good. And even interviews for practices there. It was [00:11:50] like, okay, do you use rubber dam? You know if you don’t use rubber dam, you’re not you can’t work here. They [00:11:55] really they really exigent. They really.

Payman Langroudi: Do. You were [00:12:00] like an associate in Milan.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. And I was working in many practices. I was honestly [00:12:05] killing myself. I did, I did, you know, some days I was doing half day in one half day in [00:12:10] the other one on Mondays I was taking the car, driving one hour, going to this other practice [00:12:15] where this, this doctor, she’s one of the best in Italy in restorative dentistry. And [00:12:20] I was just doing hygiene there. But just the opportunity to, you know, to be close to her. And [00:12:25] whenever I had a minute, I was going there looking at her, at her work. So yeah, [00:12:30] I, I, I worked really hard there to learn as much as I could.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me how how [00:12:35] did that even come about? Did you literally offer her that?

Chiara Burgio: No. So [00:12:40] I met her through basically through a friend of a friend. Um, they [00:12:45] met again randomly, and he introduced me to to a lot of dentists [00:12:50] because he was a surgeon there and specialised in third molar extraction. [00:12:55] So he put me in touch with other dentists that, you know, were [00:13:00] more in the restorative area.

Payman Langroudi: And life in Milan, patients in Milan.

Chiara Burgio: Life [00:13:05] in Milan. And it was it was good. Patients were, I would [00:13:10] say were pretty chilled compared to New York and London. Yeah, yeah, yeah they [00:13:15] were.

Payman Langroudi: You have to keep worrying about being sued and all that.

Chiara Burgio: No, not at all. That came when I, [00:13:20] when I went to New York, I learned about, you know, patients who actually it’s a thing when I was [00:13:25] in Spain and Brazil and Italy, no patients are usually really grateful. And they say whatever you [00:13:30] tell them to do here in New York, it’s more like, well, no, I read and my friend [00:13:35] and this and that and no, I don’t trust you 100%. They question you more, I [00:13:40] guess.

Payman Langroudi: So then why didn’t you just stay in Milan? What was the why? Why were you so [00:13:45] itchy to move all the time?

Chiara Burgio: I know everyone tells me that, but.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry. [00:13:50]

Chiara Burgio: Um. And I think some people see that as a negative thing that, you know, you [00:13:55] can’t stay in the same place for too long. Yeah. Yeah. When you look at my CV, you might think that I [00:14:00] have to stay in London for at least five years. Um, I guess I [00:14:05] always want to, um, to learn more. And sometimes I [00:14:10] feel that by living in different places and putting yourself [00:14:15] in that situation outside of your comfort zone, you know, you arrive to a new city, [00:14:20] you don’t know anyone. You have to start over again. And I think I grew [00:14:25] a lot, and it’s part of it made me part of who I am now that I’m not afraid. Like [00:14:30] if I if I were to move again, I’d be very, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:14:35] I guess, I mean professionally. Professionally. You must have thought. I want to learn more. [00:14:40]

Chiara Burgio: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Now, you could have done so many things right. You could have gone and become a specialist in a university [00:14:45] course, you know, program like that. Yeah. You could have done something in Italy. But [00:14:50] you went for the program in New York.

[BOTH]: Well, first of all, I.

Chiara Burgio: Wanted the [00:14:55] US since I was in dental school. I wanted to go and I actually did, um, the dental program [00:15:00] in, in English in Spain. Yeah, they had that option because I knew that I wanted to learn all [00:15:05] the dental terms in English because I wanted to go to the US at some point, and I was always attracted [00:15:10] to having that experience in, in the States, I guess just. Yeah, just for the personal [00:15:15] experience of it as well. Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you wanted to find a program [00:15:20] in America?

Chiara Burgio: I wanted to find a program in America, and I was looking and asking around [00:15:25] and, you know, in the beginning, I thought, okay, I’ll go right after dental school. Then a lot of a lot of people [00:15:30] advise me not to do that. And I’m actually really grateful that they told me not to do that and to work a little bit, Gain [00:15:35] more experience. And then when you do these programs, especially in the States, it’s really [00:15:40] about how much you want to do. You know, uh, how difficult do you want [00:15:45] to do these cases. Do you want to do full mouth? Do you want to do you know, a few veneer cases? It’s really up to [00:15:50] you. So it’s better if you go there and you have more experience because you can then do more difficult. [00:15:55]

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the process. I mean, is it difficult to get in? Is it expensive?

Chiara Burgio: Um, it’s really [00:16:00] expensive. Uh, first of all, what I did was, you know, let’s see if I can even get in. Um, [00:16:05] so I did the whole application process.

Payman Langroudi: Is it hard to get in?

Chiara Burgio: Um, I [00:16:10] don’t I don’t know, I guess if you’re really motivated and you really want to, you know, you demonstrate [00:16:15] that you’re a good candidate. It’s easy in that sense, to get in if you if you really want something. And [00:16:20] I think in the US they’re really understanding of that. If you’re really motivated they see that. Yeah. Um [00:16:25] but yeah of course they look at your grades. You have to go through, you know, a lot of interviews [00:16:30] and you have to write a personal statement, the whole Classic interview process, I guess. Um, [00:16:35] but it’s not only about the cost of the program, it’s about the cost of living in New York, [00:16:40] which is really, really high. Yeah, yeah. Um, so.

Payman Langroudi: So how many people on the program [00:16:45] at the same time, like, in the.

Chiara Burgio: Um, from 9 to 12 people. [00:16:50] Um, I think now they’re they’ve changed the whole program. So now they’re, they’re getting more [00:16:55] students. But when I did it, I think we were nine. So it was amazing. [00:17:00]

Payman Langroudi: And full time. Right.

Chiara Burgio: Full time. Full time. And you, you’re [00:17:05] in the clinic every day. So it’s almost like you’re working. Exactly as if you’re [00:17:10] working. You have a partner. So I remember I had this partner called Miguel and [00:17:15] we were working together in the clinic, and, you know, one was working, the other one was assisting [00:17:20] and vice versa. And we would handle our own schedule. So all our patients, they had our [00:17:25] phone numbers and we were the ones to decide everything, all the appointments and all that. Yeah. [00:17:30]

Payman Langroudi: And then the patients were what they are. They the kind of patients [00:17:35] who want to be treated by APA but can’t afford it. Is it that.

Chiara Burgio: Now for sure? Now? Yes. Because now that [00:17:40] the program has Zappa’s name. Um, yes. And even before I [00:17:45] think that thanks to Rosenthal and and all of that, it was actually really well [00:17:50] known in, in New York that you can get really good aesthetic work in an environment [00:17:55] in a, in a university. So obviously the cost is much less. They still have to pay quite a lot, [00:18:00] but it’s obviously not the same as if it was a private practice. And you have to think that we have [00:18:05] very good lab technicians working with us. Uh, we had, um, two lab technicians [00:18:10] that were amazing. So patients were getting, you [00:18:15] know, amazing treatment.

Payman Langroudi: What did it cover? I mean, okay, you’d imagine a program [00:18:20] with Apo’s name on it would be all veneers, is [00:18:25] it?

Chiara Burgio: No, it wasn’t all veneers. Um, again, it really [00:18:30] depended on how much you wanted to do so. For example, me, I. In the beginning I was [00:18:35] a bit frustrated in the program. I wasn’t seeing that many patients. I wanted to do more and more and more. [00:18:40] So then I started finding my own patients. You know, I was working with [00:18:45] the period department. I started going to the period department and asking the other students, look, do you have a static [00:18:50] case to send them to me? And I did that so much that I ended up doing the veneers of the perio [00:18:55] resident that I was working with. At the end of the second year. She was like, oh, can you [00:19:00] do my veneers? Um, so so yeah, I just I found a way to, [00:19:05] to have a lot of experience. And I wasn’t only doing veneer cases, I was doing full mouth cases as well. [00:19:10]

Payman Langroudi: Were they teaching that? Yes, yes. So what was the teaching element of it? I mean, [00:19:15] how many hours was teaching? How many hours was clinic.

Chiara Burgio: So the program is 12 [00:19:20] months and you start in July. You’re not in the clinic until September. And [00:19:25] the first three months, I would say it’s mainly hands on and theory. [00:19:30] And after that it’s September and in September, then you start in the clinic. Um, [00:19:35] then you still have some lectures during the year, like especially in the morning, some mornings. [00:19:40] But you always have clinic. There’s not a day that you’re like, okay, no, Thursdays [00:19:45] is just theory. No, you have every day it’s clinic. So that’s it’s really hands on. And I don’t [00:19:50] think there are any programs right now that give you that type of exposure to that many, to that [00:19:55] much clinical time. It’s, you know, that’s why I chose also to go there because most [00:20:00] programs anywhere else, it was like, okay, yeah, a lot of theory, a lot of theory, [00:20:05] which yes, it’s important, but you learn by doing in our profession I think [00:20:10] so, yeah. So they did teach a lot of theory of how to, [00:20:15] you know, do full mouth cases as well.

Payman Langroudi: So you came out of it with like what kind [00:20:20] of numbers, how many full mouth cases have you done? How [00:20:25] many cases was this was numerous.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. I mean, veneer cases. Yeah a lot. Full mouth. [00:20:30] Obviously not, because most of full mouths, they might have needed implant work or, [00:20:35] you know, gum grafting or other things. So full mouth, I, I think [00:20:40] I did 3 or 4. Um, um, but I did quite a lot. Yeah [00:20:45] a lot, yeah. And sometimes, you know, some of these full mouths, um, they had been started [00:20:50] by another student, a few of them, most of them I had started the first year, and then I had [00:20:55] the option of staying an extra year as a fellow. So I was basically working for the university [00:21:00] as well. So I was.

Payman Langroudi: Being taught paid at this point.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah, I was getting [00:21:05] paid. Yeah. So yeah, I had to organise the lectures, I had [00:21:10] to organise the hands on, I had to, um, you know, make the orders of all the materials for [00:21:15] the program. Uh, yeah. Speak to all the professors about organising the theory [00:21:20] classes. And I was teaching as well. I did a few and then I started doing my own [00:21:25] lectures as well for the students, so it was really, really cool. The second year was really, really nice, and [00:21:30] then I had the option to keep growing in the clinic and to keep working on my cases, which [00:21:35] was amazing. And at that point I had my, my, the chair by myself so I could, you [00:21:40] know, I didn’t have a partner. So the second year was really good. Also because I was working by myself, [00:21:45] I was, you know, prepping and suctioning at the same time. So it was I [00:21:50] learned a lot because I was doing everything on my own.

Payman Langroudi: And was there implant element to it?

Chiara Burgio: Yes. [00:21:55] Uh, no. So we were not placing implants.

Payman Langroudi: You weren’t.

Chiara Burgio: Placing? No, but we were restoring implants. Yeah. [00:22:00]

Payman Langroudi: So then you could if you wanted to, could you have stayed [00:22:05] and been a dentist in America or would you have to do more exams?

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. So that path, uh, [00:22:10] some of my friends chose that path. And it is possible, especially after you do two [00:22:15] years, you get something called limited license in the US that gives you access to few [00:22:20] states in the United States.

Payman Langroudi: And Without any exams?

Chiara Burgio: No. You have [00:22:25] to still do the national board. The board? The board? Yeah. The board exams, which are [00:22:30] a lot of work. I mean, my friends, they studied for months. Um, but it is doable. [00:22:35] You also have some practical tests, and after you do all that, then you can practice. I [00:22:40] have some friends in Chicago right now, and they’re practising there.

Payman Langroudi: Did you consider it?

Chiara Burgio: No. Never. [00:22:45]

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t want to live in America?

Chiara Burgio: No, again, I wanted I loved that experience [00:22:50] in the US. But I really missed the whole, you know, I felt like I lost a lot by [00:22:55] being there with my family. Most of my siblings, they had kids. And, you know, I was [00:23:00] losing all that. So I wanted to to be closer to my family. Yeah. [00:23:05]

Payman Langroudi: So then when you came to London, how did you manage to get the job at, [00:23:10] um. Cause, yeah.

Chiara Burgio: Coming to London was really [00:23:15] tough, honestly. It was, I think from all the moves that I did, probably the the toughest. [00:23:20]

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Chiara Burgio: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Why?

Chiara Burgio: Because of the visa?

Payman Langroudi: Of course.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. I [00:23:25] mean, I had to get a visa in the US, but it was much easier to get a student visa to get a [00:23:30] skilled worker visa here. It’s extremely difficult, especially if you want to work in private practice. Um, [00:23:35] because you need a practice that’s going to have the sponsorship license that they want to sponsor you. [00:23:40] And it’s a lot of work. And most, you know, when I was coming here, I did I showed my portfolio, [00:23:45] you know, the practice was like, wow. Yes. You know, almost like when can you start? And [00:23:50] then I’d be like, yeah, but you know, I need a visa and then never hear back again.

Chiara Burgio: You [00:23:55] know?

Chiara Burgio: Oh yeah, actually we don’t do that visa thing. It’s not our thing. We don’t want to do it. So it [00:24:00] was really it was at some point I thought, okay, I’m I’m not gonna make it. I’ll just [00:24:05] go back to Italy. You know, I’m not I’m not gonna make it. But yeah, I managed thankfully.

Payman Langroudi: Because if you watch [00:24:10] the news, you might think it’s easy to come to Britain. Yeah. No, but Britain is the hardest country in [00:24:15] the world to come into the hardest.

Chiara Burgio: Honestly?

Payman Langroudi: Yes. Um. Illegally. Yeah. Um, [00:24:20] which is why there’s all this illegal immigration. Because legally, they’ve basically closed everything [00:24:25] down. Um, they always had when Britain was always the hardest country.

Chiara Burgio: They did [00:24:30] say they were going to be more EU friendly, but not really. I can confirm. [00:24:35]

Payman Langroudi: That hasn’t happened.

Chiara Burgio: Hasn’t happened.

Payman Langroudi: So you got it in the end. [00:24:40]

Chiara Burgio: I got it in the end and I I’m, I met.

Payman Langroudi: For the exams.

Chiara Burgio: No [00:24:45] exams. Yeah. No I mean when I was still in New York I did all the GDC things, [00:24:50] which took a year. So second year I was in New York. I was doing all of this.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:24:55] you’d already decided London was your. Yeah.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah, yeah, I hadn’t decided 100%, [00:25:00] but I wanted to have the option. So that’s what I did, the GDC.

Payman Langroudi: And were you thinking Milan or.

Chiara Burgio: Well, [00:25:05] I even thought about Dubai as well. So my, my options were [00:25:10] either London, Dubai or going back to Milan. Um, Dubai in the end. No. [00:25:15] Um, so it was more London and and In Madrid and Milan. Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:25:20] was the reason you rejected Dubai again?

Chiara Burgio: Too far. Too far from the family [00:25:25] and. Yeah. No.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. Not my vibe, I think so. [00:25:30] So. Yeah. So I met through Shameek. Who? I met through [00:25:35] Shameek. I have to say, he was the best person. I mean, he was the nicest person [00:25:40] I met here when I came to London. I reached out through a professor of mine because he did [00:25:45] coins as well. He was kois trained. Yeah. And yeah, when I, when I got to London, I was [00:25:50] like, oh my God, I need to meet Shameek. You know, I didn’t know a lot of dentists in London and that’s [00:25:55] what I wanted to look for. And he introduced me to Corey. And then I went for an interview there, [00:26:00] and we really clicked in a way. We we spoke a lot about, you know, dentistry. [00:26:05] I showed him my portfolio. He we spoke about my cases and, and then he offered me [00:26:10] a job.

Payman Langroudi: So how many days are you there?

Chiara Burgio: One day a week.

Payman Langroudi: Standards are [00:26:15] high there. Right. And he likes things done the way he likes, things done. Have you? Does everyone have [00:26:20] to work in the way he works? Yeah, yeah.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah, for sure. You have to photograph everything you do [00:26:25] step by step. Uh, you know, prep, bond, everything. Uh, [00:26:30] the temp, the occlusion, everything and everything has to be on the rubber dam. [00:26:35] I mean, even even putting, uh, wire retainers, uh, for ortho. You have to put that on [00:26:40] the rubber dam, uh, and photograph it. So it’s a [00:26:45] really high standard, but it didn’t really it didn’t scare me because in Italy they are like [00:26:50] that. And I was working with people that were really, really demanding and and [00:26:55] that’s why I guess you that’s how you get there, right? That’s how that’s [00:27:00] how you can become excellent if you’re surrounded by people that really demand a lot from [00:27:05] you.

Payman Langroudi: So when you’ve been around a lot of these sort of very top [00:27:10] dentists, experts, if you like, in I’m sure [00:27:15] in New York you must have been, you know, all the guys at NYU as well? Yeah. What would [00:27:20] you say is the key to being expert? Because I think people [00:27:25] people kind of make it sound like it’s some sort of mysterious thing. Yeah. Um, but [00:27:30] as far as I can see, it’s like, don’t take shortcuts. [00:27:35] Yeah. Do everything right. Yeah. Do everything right. It seems such [00:27:40] an obvious thing. Such an obvious thing. Yeah. Of not. But but don’t you [00:27:45] think in dentistry, it’s almost like we we we want to. We want to hack some sort of shortcut, [00:27:50] some way of missing a step. And it’s almost like it’s a cool thing. Hey, guess what? [00:27:55] If you do this, you don’t have to do that anymore. You know, like and those. The problem with dentistry is [00:28:00] that the errors compound.

Chiara Burgio: And then it becomes a big thing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like a really small [00:28:05] error at one step will then compound into a much bigger error. Yeah for sure. [00:28:10] So doing things properly. That’s what. That’s my sense of it. What would you say?

Chiara Burgio: I [00:28:15] think yes, you have to always push yourself to do better and always [00:28:20] self. I guess maybe it’s a it’s a bad thing to say that, [00:28:25] but I self-criticize a lot. I’m never happy with what I’m doing. I take photos of everything. [00:28:30] Um, even in the other practice where I work, I photograph everything. And, [00:28:35] you know, I’m always like, ah, I should have done this better. You know, I don’t like that. Um, so I guess [00:28:40] that’s what I saw in other people that they, they became excellent [00:28:45] because they were always.

Payman Langroudi: Critical, super critical of themselves.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. Which is wrong in a way, you [00:28:50] know, because you, you you feel bad by doing that. But at the same time.

Payman Langroudi: One thing [00:28:55] I would say, one thing I would I would warn you as a young dentist, you know.

Chiara Burgio: Before I burn [00:29:00] out.

Payman Langroudi: You know, some some young dentists get this very wrong. Yeah. Insomuch as, [00:29:05] you know, in when you’re talking to a dentist and you say, I’m very critical of myself and I’m [00:29:10] never happy that from dentist to dentist, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. But [00:29:15] some young dentists mistake that. And they they move that into the patient as [00:29:20] well. Yeah. So let’s say you just fitted ten veneers. Yeah. From a dentist’s [00:29:25] perspective I would have liked that line angle to be slightly further in. I would have liked the emergence to be slightly [00:29:30] better here. Maybe this whatever. All of that is beautiful from a dentist’s perspective. [00:29:35] When you say that to a patient. Yeah, a patient doesn’t get from that. What [00:29:40] me and you get from that, a patient gets from that. Something went wrong. Yeah. Yeah. [00:29:45] She’s not happy with it. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s weird because as a as a dentist, it sounds like it’s [00:29:50] the right thing to be saying that I’m not 100% happy, even though I’m 97% happy. You know, [00:29:55] that’s a perfectionist as far as we’re concerned. From a patient’s perspective, it’s totally different. And [00:30:00] I guess in America, you must have been exposed to that. You know, like, yeah, I remember when Larry used to fit [00:30:05] and he was like, well, you look $1 million here. Did [00:30:10] you can you can you understand what I’m saying?

Chiara Burgio: Yes. So in [00:30:15] New York, I had very demanding patients, and I wasn’t used [00:30:20] to that because I was coming from Italy and Spain where patients, they were, you know, easygoing, [00:30:25] easygoing. And I remember one of the first veneer [00:30:30] cases that I did in New York. I wasn’t expecting it at all for the patient to be that [00:30:35] demanding. Because she was young. She was, I think, 20, 23, 24. During [00:30:40] the consultation, she seemed very easygoing, you know, and then we prepped, [00:30:45] did the veneers. Um, she had she had like, not [00:30:50] very nice shaped, uh, teeth. And I remember that’s why she wanted to do veneers. [00:30:55] She wanted to have like, a lot, a lot of veneers. And we only did like four veneers, uh, very minimal [00:31:00] prep. And I remember when I fitted the veneers, I was like, wow, [00:31:05] they were feldspathic. They were beautiful. We worked with a lab that was really, really good. And [00:31:10] I was like, wow, you know, they look amazing. And I remember she I gave her the mirror [00:31:15] because obviously it’s always like consent. No, you have to show them before you fit them. Are you happy [00:31:20] with this? Do you want me to submit yes or no? And at that point, she was like, no, I don’t like them [00:31:25] at all. You know, this, this angle and this and that. And I remember I still have the video [00:31:30] of that on my phone of her criticising the veneers and me being like, wow, I’m [00:31:35] such a perfectionist and I always criticise everything. But in this moment I love [00:31:40] your veneers and I don’t see what you’re seeing, you know?

Payman Langroudi: So yeah. So patients are even more critical [00:31:45] than you.

Chiara Burgio: Yes. Which I was really impressed. I mean, then you have [00:31:50] to really understand if it’s, you know, the patient that has some unrealistic expectations or [00:31:55] or not.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So the way your, you know, your Gita. Yes. The way your Gita says [00:32:00] it is, if she can see what the patient can see then fine. [00:32:05] Yeah. But if she can’t see what the patient’s talking.

Chiara Burgio: Well, in that moment, I couldn’t see it. Honestly, [00:32:10] I couldn’t see it.

Payman Langroudi: So what did you do?

Chiara Burgio: I called the lab, and I was like, I need some [00:32:15] help. I don’t know what to do. And I remember he came back. He came as well. [00:32:20] The lab technician came and, uh, discussed with the patient, and he was involved in the treatment, [00:32:25] and I don’t know. Then we figured it out, and then at the end, she was really happy. [00:32:30] But it took, I think, 2 or 3 remakes. Yeah, yeah, 2 [00:32:35] or 3 from the first time that they were already excellent, to be [00:32:40] honest.

Payman Langroudi: But can they not see them in the temporaries how it’s going to look?

Chiara Burgio: Yes, [00:32:45] yes. Which which was the strange thing. Yes. Because she liked her temps. [00:32:50] And again there we photographed everything. So we would send the photo of the temporaries to the lab. [00:32:55] We would take an impression of the temp to the lab. We would send, you know, all that information. So yeah, [00:33:00] it was a strange case.

Payman Langroudi: I guess maybe this is a nice time to talk about mistakes. [00:33:05]

Chiara Burgio: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The darker part of the pod. What [00:33:10] comes to mind when I say clinical errors? Um.

Chiara Burgio: I guess we [00:33:15] all make mistakes all the time. That’s part of the job. Um, especially [00:33:20] when you’ve just graduated dental school, you start making [00:33:25] a lot of mistakes. Unfortunately, not because you know you want to, but. Yeah. Um, [00:33:30] I think it was in Milan. The one of the first mistakes that I made, [00:33:35] um, that I really felt I felt really bad for the patient. It was. [00:33:40] I was working in Italy, in Milan, in this private practice, and I was doing only a few days a [00:33:45] week there because it was quite demanding. The location was was good. So the patients [00:33:50] were quite demanding and I was doing a filling on this young patient. [00:33:55] I think she was 17, 18 and it was a two second molar. 37 [00:34:00] um, I put the rubber dam, you know, did the injection [00:34:05] everything. And I started drilling and the feeling was the cavity was huge. [00:34:10] I mean, it was almost needing root canal and the patient [00:34:15] was in pain. Patient was in pain. So I kept adding and adding more anaesthesia, more anaesthesia. And it wasn’t [00:34:20] working. And I think I was so focussed on the tooth that it didn’t. And honestly, even [00:34:25] to this day, I’m like, I don’t even know how I didn’t think of it, but I never [00:34:30] did the block, I never did the IV block, I just did anaesthesia in the [00:34:35] in the area and I don’t know why.

Chiara Burgio: You know, I guess I was so stressed [00:34:40] of being my first treatments and in my mind it was [00:34:45] no, you know, in the beginning I thought it was a small cavity. Again, diagnosis [00:34:50] is a big part of our of our job in the x ray. It didn’t look that big, [00:34:55] you know, I said, okay, we’ll be okay. Intraligamentary periapical everywhere around [00:35:00] the tooth. But I didn’t do the block And I remember the patient was in pain, in pain, in pain. [00:35:05] So I ended up obviously I stopped, I just put a temporary I remember I put a temporary filling, [00:35:10] I called my boss and I was like, look, I don’t know what to do. I put a lot of anaesthesia, but and I remember [00:35:15] he looked at me and was like, did you do the block? And I was like, oh my God, how did I forget? [00:35:20] How, how did I not even think about it? It was so basic, you know, [00:35:25] um.

Payman Langroudi: What happened? Um, did you tell the patient or. No.

Chiara Burgio: No, [00:35:30] no, we just told the patient, you know, just come back. Maybe today the anaesthesia didn’t really work. [00:35:35] Yeah, whatever. And patient came back, and then I treated her, and I finished. I did the block.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:35:40] interesting. I like it, but I’m not going to accept it because. You know why? Because, um, there isn’t much [00:35:45] we can learn from that one.

Chiara Burgio: I mean, I did learn that if it’s a second molar. [00:35:50]

Payman Langroudi: You’re gonna make that mistake again.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. No, I, I got [00:35:55] I got worried because.

Payman Langroudi: Did you ever, did you ever fit veneers. And the patient came back [00:36:00] a week later and said, I don’t like them.

Chiara Burgio: No.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve had that.

Chiara Burgio: Really. [00:36:05]

Payman Langroudi: I’ve had that family member, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Family family member.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Because [00:36:10] the patients loves them, spent a lot of money, goes some family member who’s.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. And [00:36:15] they’re like, I hate them. The wife is like, I hate them.

Payman Langroudi: No. But also like, sometimes you you love [00:36:20] the weakness in your family. Like, you know, like the gaps between their teeth define [00:36:25] them. And now we’ve gotten rid of all those gaps, and now they’re looking almost as different person. [00:36:30] And they’ve spent a load of money.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So give me a different on another [00:36:35] era, a different era. Call it a management era, call it a treatment planning era. Um, [00:36:40] I like that one. It’s interesting. I’ve never heard that one before, but I do want another one.

Chiara Burgio: Um, [00:36:45] maybe not a clinical error, but more [00:36:50] not diagnosing or understanding [00:36:55] the psychological state of a patient before treating them, which I think is a is [00:37:00] a super important part of our job, especially if we’re doing a lot of big cases. You [00:37:05] want to do a full mouth on someone that you like, not on someone that’s going to be.

Payman Langroudi: Someone who likes.

Chiara Burgio: You, someone [00:37:10] who likes you as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chiara Burgio: So yeah, I guess in New York I had a I [00:37:15] had a patient, um, there that she was. I remember she came for consultation. She was [00:37:20] really upset about some implant work that had been done in the front. [00:37:25] And she they looked really bad and she wasn’t happy at all. And, you know, I, I tried [00:37:30] to explain to her, look, I don’t know how much we can do because obviously the implant were placed in a [00:37:35] very tricky way and it was really difficult to make them look nice, you know, because the whole emergence [00:37:40] of the implant was wrong. And I started to explain that to her, but I think she was so [00:37:45] frustrated that she got really upset with me, really, really upset. And I remember she [00:37:50] came back, uh, like a week later and she started shouting in front of everyone. [00:37:55] I don’t want Doctor Borgia to see me ever again. She was patronising [00:38:00] me. She didn’t understand my concerns and [00:38:05] she was shouting in front of everyone. And it was horrible for me because, oh my God, you know, a [00:38:10] patient is shouting that she doesn’t want to see me ever again. But I guess I, I understood [00:38:15] first of all that whenever a patient is frustrated with another dentists work, [00:38:20] you have to be even more understanding and you have to be even more careful because these patients, they’re already [00:38:25] coming with a lot of frustration. And I guess I didn’t see that. I saw it, but I, I didn’t [00:38:30] handle it properly at all.

Payman Langroudi: So what happened next?

[BOTH]: I never saw [00:38:35] her again. Really? I never saw her again.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the kind of unhappy ending I’m after.

[BOTH]: Yeah. [00:38:40] Yeah.

Chiara Burgio: I never saw her again. Which, you know, it was fine. She saw another.

Payman Langroudi: You know what I reckon? I [00:38:45] reckon if the exact same thing happened in a few years time, you [00:38:50] might have picked up on that, you know. Yeah. That there’s almost like a sixth sense that happens [00:38:55] when something like that is going down that it takes a few years of experience. You just can’t [00:39:00] buy experience. That’s the problem. Yes. And what is experience? At the end of the day, it’s things going wrong. [00:39:05] Yes. Yeah.

[BOTH]: And learning from your mistakes.

Payman Langroudi: Learning from your mistakes. But you need to have been around long enough for things [00:39:10] to go wrong enough. And especially in that area that you’re just discussing there. Yeah. [00:39:15] It’s like a picking up on something that I think all the dentists [00:39:20] have that I mean, I wasn’t a dentist ever long enough to get it myself. What [00:39:25] do you teach on right now?

Chiara Burgio: So I teach on Rubber Dam how [00:39:30] to isolate rubber dam. I do that in New York. Uh, once a year. I was doing that when [00:39:35] I was studying, and, uh, the second year as well. And now I kept doing that, and [00:39:40] I’ve just started teaching on injection moulding technique. Oh, yeah. Yeah, in Milan [00:39:45] and Paris. So, yeah, that’s basically what I’m doing right now.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:39:50] in do you mean for where cases or do you mean just cosmetic like composite veneers.

Chiara Burgio: Well, [00:39:55] it’s a very short course. It’s a one day course. So going into the hall where [00:40:00] a subject is too big.

[BOTH]: For one day.

Chiara Burgio: For one day it’s impossible. So [00:40:05] it’s mainly for aesthetic cases. But I do have a lot of people that they ask about where [00:40:10] cases and full mouth. And I’m like, okay guys, but I can’t explain this in.

[BOTH]: What [00:40:15] are you using? Which composite?

Chiara Burgio: Uh, GC.

[BOTH]: Gc.

Payman Langroudi: Seems to be the one everyone’s aiming. [00:40:20]

[BOTH]: At, right? It is, it is.

Payman Langroudi: It’s like, um, they’ve got something going on in Japan here [00:40:25] with the with the silane coupler that they’re managing to get flowable strong composites. [00:40:30]

[BOTH]: With.

Chiara Burgio: A huge amount of inorganic.

Payman Langroudi: None of the Germans are able to reproduce [00:40:35] that. Um, the German manufacturers are able to reproduce that. Yet it’s [00:40:40] interesting with the actually the guy from New York, what’s his name, the Japanese [00:40:45] guy.

[BOTH]: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was at Bard, wasn’t he, [00:40:50] last, last year explaining about all of this.

Chiara Burgio: Ah, Yeah. He’s he was teaching us as well there. [00:40:55]

[BOTH]: Yeah I bet. I bet.

Chiara Burgio: He’s amazing. He’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: What what do you struggle with [00:41:00] in dentistry?

Chiara Burgio: In clinical.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:41:05] I’m up for, like, life as well.

[BOTH]: Um. [00:41:10]

Chiara Burgio: I guess I struggle when sometimes I [00:41:15] explain whenever I see a patient, I always try to do a comprehensive [00:41:20] plan, which is a lot of what we do at Kora is practice. Patient [00:41:25] might come for a wisdom tooth extraction. And we’re like, no, you have occlusal interferences. You have, you [00:41:30] know, a lot of other issues, full mouth.

[BOTH]: Full mouth rehab.

Chiara Burgio: But I only came [00:41:35] for this. Yeah, but you need, you know, all of that. So I think [00:41:40] I, I learned, um, I’m trying to learn every day more about how to [00:41:45] communicate properly with patients. I think that’s and also because English is not my first language. [00:41:50]

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Chiara Burgio: So I find it tricky sometimes to to communicate, so I guess [00:41:55] I struggle with that.

Payman Langroudi: How does English rank like? Which number language is it for you for? [00:42:00]

[BOTH]: I mean.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Fourth.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: To [00:42:05] Spanish number one.

Chiara Burgio: So Spanish, French and Italian, they’re all in the same level because [00:42:10] the three of them are my mother tongues. And then I would say it’s English. And last it’s Portuguese. [00:42:15]

Payman Langroudi: It is hard. It is hard, you know, because there’s a lot of especially in [00:42:20] England, there’s a lot of nuance. Yeah. In facial expressions.

[BOTH]: Oh. [00:42:25] Oh my.

Chiara Burgio: God. I remember.

[BOTH]: I.

Chiara Burgio: Saw a patient in London. Um, she was [00:42:30] really upset. And, you know, in, in New York, you say, oh, I’m sorry. You’re you’re mad.

[BOTH]: You know. [00:42:35]

Chiara Burgio: You’re mad. It’s like.

[BOTH]: You’re upset.

Chiara Burgio: You’re angry. But here it means you’re crazy.

[BOTH]: Yeah, [00:42:40] yeah, yeah. And I shouldn’t get it.

Chiara Burgio: She didn’t get it. And I said, oh, I’m sorry, you’re really mad. And she [00:42:45] was like, what? How can you say that to me? Oh my God.

Payman Langroudi: So you think [00:42:50] you think you’re a little bit less strong than you would want to be in communication?

Chiara Burgio: I [00:42:55] think I need to I think I need to learn how to.

Payman Langroudi: Experience.

Chiara Burgio: Again. It’s experience and [00:43:00] I try to use photos. Photos is a big part of how to communicate. When they see it, they understand [00:43:05] it. If you have a crack there, there. I don’t see any crack for sure. Just look. You show [00:43:10] the photo with the camera and they see it immediately. So I try to [00:43:15] do that, but it’s it’s tough.

Payman Langroudi: And and you do that sort of I’m sure I’m sure Corey does [00:43:20] like the sort of phase one, phase two, phase three, sort of green, amber red.

Chiara Burgio: Yes. [00:43:25]

Payman Langroudi: Of of explaining a treatment plan to a patient.

Chiara Burgio: Yes. I [00:43:30] always try to explain what’s the priority and start with that. And but [00:43:35] if I see I see a lot of, a lot of where cases and a lot of patients [00:43:40] that they’ve been coming to the practice maybe for many years in other practices and maybe [00:43:45] no one’s mentioned it. And then the patient is like, oh yeah, you know, actually I [00:43:50] realised that my teeth have become, uh, really short and I don’t know why. And [00:43:55] I’m like, yeah. And then you start going deeper and deeper, and then you ask about sleep apnoea and they’re like, yeah, I actually [00:44:00] I don’t sleep well. And I’m actually going for a test for sleep apnoea. And then you’re like, wow. You know, [00:44:05] you start asking questions and then the patient is looking at you like, wow, you know, you look so young, but how did you [00:44:10] even figure out that I had sleep apnoea? So yeah, it’s all [00:44:15] of these things. They take time.

Payman Langroudi: Explaining all that is quite difficult, right?

Chiara Burgio: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:44:20]

Chiara Burgio: And sometimes you don’t even have the time to explain all of that. Yeah. In a first consultation.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:44:25] now at Kori’s practice. Yeah. Is it I [00:44:30] mean you work at another practice as well.

Chiara Burgio: Yes. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: It’s quite, quite different.

Chiara Burgio: The patients um [00:44:35] both practices, they have really demanding patients to be honest. Yeah. Because the [00:44:40] other practices in South Ken and it’s still an area where.

Payman Langroudi: French patients.

Chiara Burgio: French [00:44:45] patients are hard. They’re hard. It helps, though, when I start speaking in French [00:44:50] to them immediately.

Payman Langroudi: French patients want to know everything. Yeah. And I think [00:44:55] trust is quite low with them as compared to German patients. I don’t know if you’ve had any of those. Brilliant. [00:45:00]

Chiara Burgio: A lot of German patients, because my boss there is German. So we have German community. [00:45:05] I love German patients.

Payman Langroudi: They just want. They just.

Chiara Burgio: Trust you.

Payman Langroudi: Go ahead. Go for it. And they [00:45:10] want the best of everything. Yes, yes. And I love the way they don’t care about gold. No. You [00:45:15] know.

Chiara Burgio: Most of them, they have a lot of gold restorations. They look fine. They’re perfect. It’s [00:45:20] probably better than the onlays that we’re doing nowadays.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. You see some 30 year old gold [00:45:25] inlay? Only thing that looks still working exactly like it should. Right. Yeah, [00:45:30] yeah. Those noises are really interesting. You know, like you said, you wanted to work in Paris. It [00:45:35] would have been every single patient, right?

Chiara Burgio: I’m actually happy I’m not working. I’m [00:45:40] happy I never. I never went [00:45:45] to Paris. It’s not a city that I love anyway.

Payman Langroudi: So, yeah, I [00:45:50] feel like there’s racial tension.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, like like like you can feel it.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah, [00:45:55] yeah, you can.

Payman Langroudi: In Paris, there’s racial tension everywhere. But in Paris, you can really feel it, you know? [00:46:00]

Chiara Burgio: Yeah, much more, I think, than in other places.

Payman Langroudi: What about the sort of the rich, poor divide in Brazil? Did [00:46:05] you feel that? Because there’s a bunch of very rich people in Brazil and then a bunch of very poor people? [00:46:10]

Chiara Burgio: I mean, we didn’t treat rich people for sure already? Yeah. No, no.

Payman Langroudi: Um, because [00:46:15] you were in university.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah, we were in university. Yeah. And, uh, we honestly, [00:46:20] we I lived a life there, which was very. I wasn’t in touch with [00:46:25] anyone that had money there at all. So even the people [00:46:30] that we were going out with and having fun with, they were, you know, our surf [00:46:35] professors, you know, people that we met on the beach. I mean, it was really it was really like [00:46:40] another environment. So. Yeah, there is a massive [00:46:45] discrepancy in Brazil for sure.

Payman Langroudi: Um, did you travel around Brazil a little bit?

Chiara Burgio: Yeah, I did. I [00:46:50] did travel a lot, actually. Um.

Payman Langroudi: South America, South America. [00:46:55]

Chiara Burgio: Just Brazil at that moment. South America, I had gone when I was third year of [00:47:00] uni. I did some volunteer work in Bolivia, and I travelled to Peru as well [00:47:05] that that year. But no, when I was in Brazil I only travelled. Brazil is so massive. [00:47:10] It’s huge, it’s huge.

Payman Langroudi: So you didn’t make it to Argentina?

Payman Langroudi: No no no [00:47:15] no no no I know.

Payman Langroudi: How did you miss that?

Payman Langroudi: I know I did. [00:47:20]

Chiara Burgio: I did a lot, you know, I did, uh, some Paulo I did a few days in the [00:47:25] in the jungle. That wasn’t so fun. And then [00:47:30] I did, uh, Jericho, Kolkata, I did, yeah, I did a lot of places.

Payman Langroudi: What does the [00:47:35] future hold?

Payman Langroudi: I mean, are you are you literally, like, living day by day, or are [00:47:40] you thinking you’re gonna be in London for another three years or five years or what? What are you thinking? [00:47:45]

Chiara Burgio: For sure. I want to stay here a bit longer than two years, which is what I’ve been [00:47:50] doing for the past five years. Only two years in every place. Yeah. So now [00:47:55] it’s been one year almost in London. I think I want to [00:48:00] stay here for, for a while, at least five years, I would say, and also because I want [00:48:05] to see my mistakes. And if I always move, I’ll never see [00:48:10] if the vineyards I fitted, you know, are gonna stay for ten years or two. I’ll never know. [00:48:15] I mean, I’m in touch with most of my patients from New York. We email each other from time to time, [00:48:20] and so I’m sure that I would know if something were to happen. But still, [00:48:25] it’s better to stay in the same place and learn from your mistakes. And that’s what most clinicians tell me [00:48:30] that you have. You have to stay and see how things go. So [00:48:35] the plan is to stay for now. Let’s see.

Payman Langroudi: But that’s almost like a clinical reason to stay. But what about like, life [00:48:40] wise? I mean, do you like London?

Chiara Burgio: Yes, I like London. I think, though, [00:48:45] it’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Difficult.

Chiara Burgio: City.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the worst thing about London?

Chiara Burgio: The [00:48:50] weather?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but outside of the weather.

Chiara Burgio: Outside of [00:48:55] the weather? Um, I think dentistry to do [00:49:00] proper dentistry here. It’s tricky. And you have to find the right places [00:49:05] to do it in.

Payman Langroudi: Because of the NHS and all that.

Chiara Burgio: Because of the NHS and all that. Yeah, [00:49:10] but honestly, I’m. I’m happy here and now. I, my boyfriend [00:49:15] was in New York. He managed to find a job in London. So.

Payman Langroudi: Dentistry.

Chiara Burgio: No no.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Chiara Burgio: Oh, uh, not [00:49:20] at all. Better. Uh, so now he he [00:49:25] moved to London. So we’re based both of us here. My family is here. I want to stay. I want to stay, for sure. [00:49:30]

Payman Langroudi: But what’s the worst thing about London outside of the weather and dentistry?

Chiara Burgio: The [00:49:35] visa issue is a [00:49:40] big problem for me. Um, I [00:49:45] cannot think of anything else.

Payman Langroudi: You know, what I’m getting to is like, I don’t know. You’ve got this sort of [00:49:50] Mediterranean upbringing. Yeah. Do you find something lacking in London from that perspective?

Payman Langroudi: Like. Yeah. [00:49:55]

Payman Langroudi: Like, for instance. Let me let me. I once heard a footballer and he was he, he’d moved to [00:50:00] Spain for football and then he just stayed. And the guy was [00:50:05] asking him, you know why? Yeah. And he said, look, he said, there’s about a hundred things that are right [00:50:10] about London that are wrong in Spain. But there’s about five [00:50:15] things that are right in Spain that’s wrong in London. It’s those five things. He didn’t even say what they [00:50:20] were.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s those five things. And I kind of for me, it really resonated like [00:50:25] the almost the community feel is lost here a little [00:50:30] bit.

Payman Langroudi: I warmth.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. That’s why most of my [00:50:35] friends here they’re Italian or Spanish or French. I [00:50:40] don’t have a lot of British friends.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very early for you. It’s very early for you.

Chiara Burgio: I haven’t [00:50:45] been here long enough.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chiara Burgio: Anyways. But yes, I guess. Yeah, the for sure [00:50:50] the, the community thing is. But there is a big community of European people here anyway, so [00:50:55] you don’t really feel alone in that sense.

Payman Langroudi: Uh huh.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:51:00] okay. What are the things like if you think about in Madrid that are wrong, that [00:51:05] are right here?

Chiara Burgio: Um.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll [00:51:10] tell you what I love about here. Anonymity.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. [00:51:15]

Payman Langroudi: You can walk anywhere you like without [00:51:20] worrying.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What you’re wearing.

Chiara Burgio: That’s like New York.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:51:25] anonymous nature of it, which is it’s almost it’s also the worst thing about it as well. Right. Because it can be [00:51:30] very lonely like you think, how can he be lonely in a town with 10 million people. [00:51:35] It’s one.

Payman Langroudi: Of the loveliest.

Payman Langroudi: Towns in.

Payman Langroudi: The world.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, new York to.

Payman Langroudi: New York, for sure. For sure. [00:51:40]

Chiara Burgio: New York, if you feel alone in New York, you really feel alone.

Payman Langroudi: I went to [00:51:45] New York twice. The first time. Literally didn’t know anyone. Second, second [00:51:50] time. I knew lots of people. It’s a totally different town, like, you know, completely [00:51:55] different.

Chiara Burgio: Completely different.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You need to know stuff there. [00:52:00] You need to know what’s going on.

Payman Langroudi: Yes.

Chiara Burgio: And you need to know people that have been living there for a [00:52:05] while so they can guide you a little bit around the city, because it’s tricky.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:52:10] the question of living there, I think in America, [00:52:15] I don’t know, I like I like New York and I like, um, I like New Orleans. [00:52:20] Probably not to live. I don’t know. Um, but the question of living there or living in [00:52:25] London. Yeah. Again, you’d imagine they’re quite similar experiences, but they’re not.

Payman Langroudi: No, they’re [00:52:30] very.

Chiara Burgio: Very different cities. Yeah, in a way they’re similar. But I [00:52:35] also, you know, it’s all about who you surround yourself with and how you experience [00:52:40] every city. It’s mainly about who you surround yourself with. It’s not so much about the city [00:52:45] itself because, you know, in Brazil there was nothing to do there. And I had I made [00:52:50] great friends and I had a lot of fun, but if I were to be fully alone there, I would have been really, [00:52:55] really lonely. So yeah, I think [00:53:00] all these big cities there, it’s difficult to live in them and to find your way and but [00:53:05] you, if you meet people, the right people, and you have the right friends and the right community, [00:53:10] they’re great.

Payman Langroudi: I really like Madrid.

Payman Langroudi: I really like.

Payman Langroudi: It. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s [00:53:15] funny because.

Payman Langroudi: Over here it changed.

Chiara Burgio: A lot. Also, it wasn’t like that when I was living there. It became much more international [00:53:20] now.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Chiara Burgio: A lot of South American people moved there. A lot of Argentinian, [00:53:25] a lot of Mexican people. They started opening a lot of restaurants. [00:53:30] Yeah. All these people, you know, they had a lot of money. So they came and they started investing. Um, [00:53:35] a lot in the food industry and restaurants and nightclubs. So it [00:53:40] changed, changed a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think you’re gonna open your own practice?

Chiara Burgio: I’m not sure anymore. [00:53:45] For a long time, I really wanted to. Now I’m not sure. [00:53:50] I think I.

Payman Langroudi: Changed.

Chiara Burgio: I think I realised [00:53:55] that for all these years, dentistry has been my main thing. You know, I moved [00:54:00] countries. I did all of these things only for dentistry. Mainly for dentistry. And [00:54:05] I don’t want it to be the centre of my life that much anymore. I think [00:54:10] I, I want to do other things. So I actually launched a Start-Up with my [00:54:15] sister when I was living in Italy. Um, it was related to the to the [00:54:20] dental field, but, uh, it didn’t work out in the end. We [00:54:25] we stopped because it wasn’t the right moment, but it made me realise that I’m open [00:54:30] to that entrepreneur, um, world as well. And [00:54:35] I know opening your own practice, it’s also entrepreneurial, but it really [00:54:40] ties you up to the place. And as you can see from my CV and from everything, I [00:54:45] don’t know if I like that feeling of being tied to one place. And I think having a practice does [00:54:50] that to you. Very few people manage to have their practice and move around. I mean, Doctor [00:54:55] APA, yes. He you know, he has practised in Dubai and he can move around and not [00:55:00] be in just one place. But I think it’s actually difficult to do that.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the wrong job, isn’t [00:55:05] it? It’s the wrong. Dentistry is the wrong job for that nomadic lifestyle. [00:55:10] Um, and it’s the worst thing about the job, right? That you have to kind of turn up. Yeah, yeah, because [00:55:15] a lot of jobs you don’t have to turn up for. Like, you could work from home. You can work from Bali if you want. Yeah. [00:55:20] Um, but dentistry, I mean, that’s just got a lot of advantages, but that’s the kind of the main disadvantage [00:55:25] of it. Um, so what start up? What if you still [00:55:30] got, like, start up ambitions?

Chiara Burgio: Yes, yes.

Payman Langroudi: For sure. Quite interesting that. What [00:55:35] are you saying?

Chiara Burgio: So I launched I launched the Start-Up with my sister. My sister [00:55:40] is in the venture capital world.

Payman Langroudi: So she she she.

Chiara Burgio: She had launched her own Start-Up [00:55:45] and sold it, uh, back when we were both living in Italy. When I was living in Milan, my sister was [00:55:50] there too. And I remember I had this idea, you know, I hate the scrubs [00:55:55] that we have. And and at that moment, figs was really not a thing [00:56:00] in Europe at least. And I remember telling this to my sister, you know, I hate the scrubs. And [00:56:05] she said, okay, look, if you had this idea for sure, they had it in the US. And for sure something [00:56:10] exists in the US. So obviously there was figs. Yeah. Um, I [00:56:15] hadn’t known I didn’t know anything about figs. And yeah, so we basically launched [00:56:20] a scrubs company. Um, and it was a lot of work. [00:56:25] And I ended up after these two years in Milan. I was really, really [00:56:30] burnt out because I was working full time as a dentist, and then I had the Start-Up on the side. And, [00:56:35] you know, I was coming back from work at 8 p.m. and then I was working until midnight with my sister. It was [00:56:40] a lot. So I realised that if I want to have an A business [00:56:45] on the side, I can’t work full time as a dentist. So that [00:56:50] was the learning thing. And now I have some ideas sometimes that [00:56:55] come to mind, but I want I want to wait to have the right one and to have the right [00:57:00] setup to do it as well. So maybe be a bit more free from the clinical [00:57:05] part of dentistry and have more time to think.

Payman Langroudi: You can, you know, you.

Chiara Burgio: Can develop.

Payman Langroudi: That in [00:57:10] order to do that. Yeah, I would say two days a week of dentistry. Yeah. And [00:57:15] then the rest on that project. Totally doable. Yeah, I did that for years. Yeah. [00:57:20] Uh, while we were doing this. Right. Um, three days. I’d [00:57:25] say it’s too much, though. It’s interesting.

Chiara Burgio: So you did. How many years of two days? [00:57:30]

Payman Langroudi: I did many years of one day. Okay. One day as well. But [00:57:35] what I’m saying is, because I’ve done one, two, three, four, five, I’ve noticed the sweet [00:57:40] spots are two and three. Okay. One just isn’t enough. It was a big mistake. [00:57:45] You know, you’re just not in the rhythm. Yeah. Something goes wrong. You don’t really care. You’re just one day [00:57:50] a week. You know, it’s like it’s not even. I’d say one day a week in one practice like you’re doing there. All [00:57:55] right. Cause the standards are so high, nothing’s going to slip as badly. Right. But the [00:58:00] rhythm just isn’t correct. Whereas two days, it feels like a hobby. And [00:58:05] it’s enough that, you know, you’re bringing some money in to feed yourself for the sake of the argument. Right. [00:58:10] And it gives you three full week days to work on something else. And [00:58:15] I know some dentists that they do that and they have a property business on [00:58:20] the three days. I know some dentists who for three days go yoga and self-care [00:58:25] and kids. That’s another thing. Kids and all that. Um, [00:58:30] but like I almost call it two days is like a hobby. Three days is like, it’s a job. It [00:58:35] feels like a job at three days a week. Um. And it’s good. All right. Do a job. But then to [00:58:40] do a whole Start-Up next to a job quite hard. Yeah, the scrubs is quite interesting [00:58:45] what you’re saying here, because we had this clever idea of just like, let’s send out free amazing [00:58:50] scrubs to our users. Yeah. Um, then you look at it. Yeah. And you realise [00:58:55] if you have to have small, medium, large, extra large, even extra [00:59:00] small, right. That’s five sizes for one top. Yeah. [00:59:05] In one colour. Yeah. And then the same thing for the trouser bit. And then that’s [00:59:10] just one colour. That’s ten things. Ten, ten minimum orders you’ve had to order. That’s [00:59:15] only one style and one colour. Yeah. So just make it three styles and three colours. Suddenly you’ve got [00:59:20] to order so much different stuff, right?

Chiara Burgio: It’s tricky for.

Payman Langroudi: Sure.

Chiara Burgio: The scrubs. The issue [00:59:25] is. Yeah, the sizes and and.

Payman Langroudi: Think of it.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. And I remember we had, [00:59:30] you know, some problems in the beginning with the side. The sizing was really difficult to do. [00:59:35] And you know we had some people know I’m actually a small in the top and an extra [00:59:40] large. So yeah, it was.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Someone told me what did she say? She said small [00:59:45] is too small for me, but medium is too large. So okay. So [00:59:50] what other what other Start-Up ideas have you had? Or are you not in a position to discuss those? [00:59:55] Sorry. What? What other Start-Up ideas?

Chiara Burgio: Um. I [01:00:00] had I had one recently because so [01:00:05] many patients are asking about how to clean their retainers and how [01:00:10] to keep them clean. And I know that there are a lot of, you know, these pots that they sell [01:00:15] ultrasonic pots, but I think they don’t work really, really well. So I was thinking of. [01:00:20]

Payman Langroudi: That.

Chiara Burgio: Thing. That thing? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Not bad, not bad. Um, the. [01:00:25] It’s a funny, you know, that when you ask someone about an idea. Yeah. [01:00:30] A lot of times they don’t want to tell you.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah, but it’s all about how you implement it, right? Right. [01:00:35] They all say that.

Payman Langroudi: The first thing. First of all. Yeah, the fact, the idea that I’m going to drop my 14 ideas in [01:00:40] my head. Yeah, yeah. To do your your idea here, it’s just madness. Like [01:00:45] like your idea is so brilliant. It’s through to 14 in my head.

Chiara Burgio: And they make you sign an NDA otherwise. [01:00:50] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But secondly, what you’re saying about execution. Yeah. My team came up to me with this [01:00:55] idea for Halloween. Yeah. And they described the idea to me, and I said, that’s a shit idea. [01:01:00] It’s a terrible idea.

Chiara Burgio: What was the idea?

Payman Langroudi: It’s basically the the zombie. [01:01:05] Yeah, yeah. And it goes backwards from zombie to to a pretty girl. Okay. But by [01:01:10] taking makeup off and and then, you know, brushing her teeth without toothpaste and whitening its teeth with [01:01:15] a trays and all that, and then the zombie becomes a human. You know, like I said, it’s ridiculous. Like a [01:01:20] stupid idea. Yeah. Um, they ignored me and they went ahead [01:01:25] and did it. And it got yesterday. I thought at 1.6 million views. No way. They [01:01:30] were right. No, but it was in the execution. It was in the execution. Right. Because the idea [01:01:35] is just an idea. But it’s.

Chiara Burgio: All about how.

Payman Langroudi: The execution was, was unbelievable. [01:01:40] Brilliant execution. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I mean, it’s a [01:01:45] bit like me saying to you, I’ve got an idea for a bar in Soho. Is it a good idea or a bad idea? [01:01:50] Well, it depends. It depends what I do. Right? Depends. I could do [01:01:55] the most coolest thing or the most stupid thing. They’d both be a bar in Soho, right? [01:02:00]

Chiara Burgio: That’s so true.

Payman Langroudi: So you don’t know if you’re going to have a practice. You [01:02:05] do know you’re going to stay in London?

Chiara Burgio: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: For the for the sort of foreseeable.

Chiara Burgio: And I [01:02:10] think opening a practice in London is really expensive as well.

Payman Langroudi: Everything [01:02:15] is expensive.

Chiara Burgio: Yes. But, you know, it might be easier in other cities to open a practice. [01:02:20] You need less.

Payman Langroudi: Less competition?

Chiara Burgio: Yeah, but also less investment. [01:02:25] You know, less initial investment.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But then, you know, the prices. You’re used to it. You’re [01:02:30] not going to see outside London. Yeah. Yeah. You’re not. And one thing I’ve noticed about dentistry [01:02:35] prices is it’s very nice and easy to go up, but it’s so painful [01:02:40] to come down. Yeah. You know, if you’re used to a crown being £1,600, [01:02:45] and then you go to some, some practice in Birmingham or wherever, £600. [01:02:50] Yeah. It’s it’s very, very, very, very hard to sort of get used [01:02:55] to that new pricing. Um, I don’t know. Are [01:03:00] you maybe, maybe, maybe opening a practice isn’t the right thing for you for for many different [01:03:05] reasons. Yeah, for many different reasons. I think the best one is this one. If you’ve really got that flame [01:03:10] inside you that you want to start a start up. Yeah. Then you’re right. Having a practice [01:03:15] under your name will make that much less likely. Much [01:03:20] less likely.

Chiara Burgio: And once you have it, you you have to be there all the time.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:03:25] Yeah. Um. Why, though? Why do you want to do a Start-Up? Like, [01:03:30] what? Does it excite you?

Chiara Burgio: Yes. A lot. And I even thought at [01:03:35] some point to drop dentistry when I had my, my Start-Up with my sister because things were going really well. [01:03:40] Yeah. So. And we both had full time jobs. And at some point [01:03:45] we kind of said, you know, what should we do? Should we drop everything? And, you know, just do this. [01:03:50] But then I got into the program in New York and it was a whole thing. And then I decided to to [01:03:55] be continue being focussed in dentistry. But I really missed [01:04:00] that feeling that I had. It was exciting, you know, meeting I was meeting a lot of people, [01:04:05] uh.

Payman Langroudi: Investors and.

Chiara Burgio: The like. No, not [01:04:10] that, not only that, but mainly, you know, because you have a Start-Up, you have to socialise [01:04:15] a lot. You have to get to know a lot of people. You have to learn a lot of communication, skillset, [01:04:20] how to sell your idea. Why are these jobs better than other scrubs? And I that [01:04:25] was great. I mean, it was an incredible learning experience for me and it helps me also to this day [01:04:30] with dentistry. Not that, you know, I sell dentistry, but you [01:04:35] know what I mean.

Payman Langroudi: You do. In the end, we’re all selling continuously to each other, to to our staff [01:04:40] and our patients. There’s no doubt about that. Yeah, there’s no doubt. But I.

Chiara Burgio: Miss [01:04:45] that. I miss that.

Payman Langroudi: I’m quite interested in this notion of, you know, almost the creativity [01:04:50] of a Start-Up and how in dentistry, almost creativity [01:04:55] sort of wrung out of you. Yeah, in a way, because like, in a way, I know we kind of think [01:05:00] we’re artists and and all of that. That’s quite nice.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah, I like that the [01:05:05] moment.

Payman Langroudi: Because you’re what I used to do, I used to when I was a dentist, I used to [01:05:10] put classical music and then composite bonding with the brush. And I just [01:05:15] feel like, yeah, I just feel like I’m so more important than I actually was. By [01:05:20] brushing this composite with a, with a classical music playing in the background, constantly [01:05:25] having these arguments with my nurse about the music. Yeah. And I used to tell, look, I like [01:05:30] classical a little bit. Yeah. But I it’s not, it’s not for me. It’s for the patient. Yeah. And not because [01:05:35] the patient likes classical, but because classical is more expensive music. You know, it’s [01:05:40] more important music. It’s put some cello on. Um, [01:05:45] a couple of quick fire [01:05:50] questions. What comes to mind if I say, what’s the best lecture [01:05:55] you’ve ever been to?

Chiara Burgio: It was in New York, and one [01:06:00] of my professors that had that is called restraint. He did the full program [01:06:05] of choice. And the end of the I remember the lecture ended [01:06:10] and I was like, what the hell? I don’t know anything about dentistry. [01:06:15]

Payman Langroudi: Was it about full mouth?

Chiara Burgio: It was about occlusion. How to diagnose occlusal dysfunction, [01:06:20] anterior constriction, how to deprogram patients cause deprogram. I was like, what? You [01:06:25] know, I came from it was dental school. Yes. And then two years of working as [01:06:30] a general dentist, which I was doing single tooth dentistry. I never thought about. Okay, [01:06:35] why is this? I remember he started the lecture like, do [01:06:40] you ever wonder why a patient comes and he’s saying, yeah, my tooth keeps, [01:06:45] my crown keeps falling off, or my, my tooth keeps cracking. Why is that? I never [01:06:50] thought about that before. And yes, there is a reason behind that. So after [01:06:55] after his lecture, I, I became a bit obsessed with Kois and I started reading [01:07:00] a lot of articles on it.

Payman Langroudi: And did you do Kois?

Chiara Burgio: No, I want [01:07:05] to I want to do it. I’m, I speak. Uh. I started speaking [01:07:10] a lot with, uh, Andy Chandra because his Co is trained as well. Yeah. And, [01:07:15] yeah, he’s helping me out with some cases, and. Yeah, I [01:07:20] want to do it.

Payman Langroudi: I want to do it. Another another one of the quick fire questions is which course [01:07:25] are you desperate to do?

Chiara Burgio: I want to do course. But there’s a [01:07:30] wait list and it’s so expensive as well. I’ll probably end up going in in [01:07:35] 2030.

Payman Langroudi: When are you going to get back all this money you’ve spent on courses?

Chiara Burgio: No you don’t. I mean, I [01:07:40] guess you don’t in a way. You you don’t really, uh. Get back. I mean, in the long term, [01:07:45] maybe, but not immediately for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes you think, you know, all this investment in [01:07:50] dentistry is even worth it. It’s not.

Payman Langroudi: So it depends. It depends. [01:07:55]

Chiara Burgio: Not really. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: What would you say if I said to you, um, [01:08:00] that the best resource Dental resource could [01:08:05] be a book, could be a website.

Chiara Burgio: I [01:08:10] really like. Um, and I had this. I have this book since I was in dental [01:08:15] school. It’s Ronaldo Virata’s book recipes one.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chiara Burgio: It’s the one [01:08:20] before. It’s the one before recipes that.

Payman Langroudi: The older.

Chiara Burgio: One. Yeah, it’s really good. And especially [01:08:25] when you start doing composites, it’s so clear. And you are. He [01:08:30] makes it easy, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant.

Chiara Burgio: I’ve been I’ve been to many courses or [01:08:35] lectures where they say, okay, I did this composite and I used ten types of composites. [01:08:40] I mean, who can buy ten types of different brands and has all of that, unless [01:08:45] it’s your own practice or unless you do only composites every day, you you don’t [01:08:50] have all that material. So you need something that’s easy and that you can replicate easily [01:08:55] and that you don’t need thousands of materials to do. And I think that’s why what [01:09:00] makes him a great teacher is that he simplifies. He simplifies it in a way that it looks nice. [01:09:05]

Payman Langroudi: You know, like like some teachers do the opposite. Complicate things.

Chiara Burgio: A lot. [01:09:10] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Unnecessarily. Sometimes unnecessarily. And it’s a real talent, [01:09:15] right? To be able to cover the both the breadth and the depth in a subject. [01:09:20] Yeah. You know, that’s the difference between a brilliant teacher and a not so brilliant teacher is [01:09:25] they can manage to do both. Yeah. You know, but keep it in English right at the end of the day. [01:09:30] Yeah. Just teeth. Right? Yeah.

Chiara Burgio: People [01:09:35] that are not in dentistry, they really wonder. I mean, how much can you know and [01:09:40] learn about teeth? But the more you, the more you learn, the more you realise there [01:09:45] is so much more to do and learn.

Payman Langroudi: So do you remember a time when you weren’t. So I’m [01:09:50] going to call it ambitious. I mean, ambitious is a funny [01:09:55] word for it, but like, you know why? Why do you have to be this 28 year old who’s constantly learning [01:10:00] and going on courses and, you know, there are plenty, the vast majority of people qualified [01:10:05] dental school, go work in a practice, get married, have children, whatever. [01:10:10] You know.

Chiara Burgio: I was always obsessed with the idea of [01:10:15] doing things perfectly, um, since I was young. And I think in [01:10:20] dentistry, I’m still doing that, and I’m still always looking to do the [01:10:25] best treatment, the best way. And I’m someone that if I feel like I didn’t do the best [01:10:30] for my patient, I. It will follow me, you know, in my dreams at night.

Payman Langroudi: Like a [01:10:35] karma thing.

Chiara Burgio: Yes, almost like a karma thing, I guess. But I, [01:10:40] I am, I don’t know, I get a lot of satisfaction when [01:10:45] I know that I did something in the best possible way and following the protocols [01:10:50] and the literature and. Yeah, that’s how I. That’s how I [01:10:55] get. That’s how that’s how I am happy, you know.

Payman Langroudi: That’s where you get your [01:11:00] satisfaction.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But but then do you not get things like perfection, paralysis? [01:11:05] Like, if you’re writing a lecture, if it’s not perfect, you’re not going to put [01:11:10] it out.

Chiara Burgio: And no, no but no, no, I wouldn’t say [01:11:15] that. No, it’s not that bad. Especially with lectures I, [01:11:20] I am, I am a bit more free in that sense. I don’t mind doing. Do you consider yourself [01:11:25] ambitious? Yes. Yes, yes.

Payman Langroudi: Have you always been?

Chiara Burgio: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What were you? [01:11:30] An ambitious seven year old?

Chiara Burgio: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Chiara Burgio: Really really really really really. Because I, I [01:11:35] did a lot of sports also when I was young. Oh, yeah. So I was [01:11:40] always very competitive, really, always in sports and in school. And I [01:11:45] always, I always wanted to be the best.

Payman Langroudi: So look, the plus [01:11:50] side of that is pretty obvious. What’s the minor side of it?

Chiara Burgio: I think sometimes [01:11:55] you have to care a bit less for your own happiness, and I [01:12:00] find it difficult to sometimes to go home and not think about my patients and my cases, [01:12:05] and I go home and look at the photos. I try to plan the case and I do this and I think about it. And then [01:12:10] I ask my colleagues and friends, and I send the photos and I’m like, okay, what about this? Do you think this is? And [01:12:15] it’s, oh my God. You know, at some point it’s like, enough of dentistry, you have to think about something [01:12:20] else. And I think there is a fine line in which, yes, [01:12:25] ambition is important, but then it almost becomes a bit toxic for you. So [01:12:30] it’s always being careful of not toxic ambition. [01:12:35]

Payman Langroudi: That’s the name of a band. Toxic. Let’s start a band. Toxic ambition. [01:12:40] It’s been amazing talking to [01:12:45] you. I’ve enjoyed it a lot. We’re going to end with our usual questions. First, [01:12:50] it’s a dinner party. Fantasy dinner party? Yeah. Three guests, dead [01:12:55] or alive. Who are you having? Do you like cooking?

Chiara Burgio: I [01:13:00] love cooking.

Payman Langroudi: Do you?

Chiara Burgio: Do you? Yeah, I love cooking.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent.

Chiara Burgio: Uh, I was actually gonna say, um. [01:13:05] Cedric Grolet. He’s a very famous pastry chef.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Is he gonna have someone [01:13:10] else do the cooking?

Chiara Burgio: He [01:13:15] can cook for the dinner party. Uh, yes, I would say him. [01:13:20] I would say definitely. Coins on coins. Coins?

Payman Langroudi: Coins at the dinner [01:13:25] party?

Chiara Burgio: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have you met him?

Chiara Burgio: No. That’s why.

Payman Langroudi: This is why.

Chiara Burgio: That’s why I have to go [01:13:30] to Seattle at some point and meet him.

Payman Langroudi: And why [01:13:35] don’t you invite spear as well? Then they can have. They can argue with each other.

Chiara Burgio: And [01:13:40] I would say Ingrid Betancourt. Oh, really? Yeah. [01:13:45] I read her book. Uh, and it was really.

Payman Langroudi: For someone who [01:13:50] doesn’t know. Explain who that who that is.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. So she was basically kidnapped by [01:13:55] the spark in Colombia For. I think it was 8 or 9 years. [01:14:00] And she wrote this autobiography where she describes [01:14:05] her experience in the jungle because she was kidnapped in the jungle. She was there in the jungle for many years, [01:14:10] and she describes all her attempts of escaping and [01:14:15] how she managed to basically maintain her psychological, [01:14:20] uh, how do you say to not become, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, sanity.

Chiara Burgio: Sanity? Her sanity. Exactly. [01:14:25] And it was really eye opening book because I felt that, wow, [01:14:30] this person has been through so much, and she still managed to to [01:14:35] maintain her sanity and to really basically be [01:14:40] positive and try to escape. And she fought until the end.

Payman Langroudi: So sometimes, [01:14:45] you know, when life becomes very difficult, the best and worst in people [01:14:50] comes out. Yes.

Chiara Burgio: And that’s what the book describes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. Because she was, uh, [01:14:55] also with another person that was kidnapped from her team. And I think [01:15:00] for the other person it was. Yeah, she describes it a bit of the opposite.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:15:05] I haven’t I haven’t read it, but but I heard an interview with, with her and it reminded me of, of, um, [01:15:10] you know, uh, Viktor Frankl, that sort of man’s search for meaning, which [01:15:15] he wrote after the concentration camp. Yeah. Similar kind of vibe. You know, like lessons [01:15:20] you learn about humanity? Yeah. From from from that sort of experience. Very interesting. [01:15:25] Yeah. The final question is a deathbed question. Okay. I know you’re a long [01:15:30] way away from that.

Chiara Burgio: But who knows?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Shit. Um, [01:15:35] three pieces of advice for your loved ones. [01:15:40]

Chiara Burgio: Um, I would say spend as much time with [01:15:45] your family as you can. I think family is really important. Um. And [01:15:50] no one, no one gives you back that time when you lost it. [01:15:55] Um, another piece of advice I would say is do what you love for [01:16:00] sure what you’re passionate about. And don’t spend time doing things that you don’t want to [01:16:05] do. Learn. Learn to say no as well. I think a lot of people, they have issues [01:16:10] saying, no, I don’t want to go there. I don’t want to. I don’t want to go there tonight. I don’t want to spend time with these people and [01:16:15] surround yourself with people that are going to push you to be better [01:16:20] and to be the best version of yourself.

Payman Langroudi: All right. All of those [01:16:25] were like, kind of, um, my name’s Chiara, and this is what I did. Uh, so you should [01:16:30] too. But what about one that’s like, here’s here’s one I wish I did more [01:16:35] of, um, or I was I wish I was a bit less [01:16:40] a bit more.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah. Sometimes I wish I, I’d care [01:16:45] a bit less about, um, doing the best.

Payman Langroudi: Or that thing [01:16:50] that you said.

Chiara Burgio: Yeah, probably that I would say.

Payman Langroudi: Give yourself an easier time, right? [01:16:55] Yeah. For sure. It’s been a massive pleasure.

Chiara Burgio: Thank you so much for having [01:17:00] me.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Good luck with everything. Thank you. I’m sure we’ll bump into each other some dinner. [01:17:05]

Chiara Burgio: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

[VOICE]: This is [01:17:10] Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [01:17:15] leaders in dentistry. Your [01:17:20] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:17:25] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge [01:17:30] thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and [01:17:35] what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

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