Payman Langroudi: People are always asking me what events they should go to if they want to learn about aesthetic dentistry, [00:00:05] and I always recommend Bard British Association of Aesthetic Dentistry. Their event is generally [00:00:10] at the end of January. This year would be 30th and 31st of January at the [00:00:15] beautiful Hilton Syon Park in Isleworth. And what I’ve realised is [00:00:20] Bard Lectures is this one stage with the closest thing we have in the UK [00:00:25] to an international sort of scientific meeting, because all the speakers are top notch [00:00:30] and they have lively debates, and people from all over the world come to lecture at this event. [00:00:35] For me, the main thing about Bard is that you have these friendships that end up [00:00:40] being formed there, and then you’ve got people to call and you know, the great and the good are all there. So if you’ve never [00:00:45] been before, have a look at their website for details. They’ve got about ten tickets [00:00:50] left, so join us.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:55] is Dental Leaders. The [00:01:00] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [00:01:05] Your hosts Payman Langroudi [00:01:10] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome [00:01:15] Nikki Kiani onto the practice. Nikki is a specialist prosthodontist. Now Nikki. [00:01:20]

Niki Keyhani: Well, we’re waiting for the GDC certification but just finished the [00:01:25] training.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve just finished the specialist training. A practice owner from squat. Yes. [00:01:30] Daughter of a dentist.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, yeah, that’s probably the bit I’m most proud of.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:01:35] should be proud of a lot. You know, considering 2017 is when you qualify. You just told me. Yeah. You’ve [00:01:40] done a lot. Are you, like this ambitious cat you’ve always [00:01:45] been or. Or did you, did you. Is there a is there a time you can think back to when you weren’t that [00:01:50] cat and something flipped?

Niki Keyhani: No, no, I’ve definitely I mean, I love this adjective [00:01:55] of ambitious, but I wouldn’t think of myself as ambitious. I would say I’m passionate. [00:02:00] I’ve always been incredibly passionate of whatever I do. I want to take it the [00:02:05] extra mile. I want to do more. I want to see more. Um, and yeah, that [00:02:10] that can come across as ambitious and people call it ambitious. But to me that’s just passion. That’s just my passion. Kind [00:02:15] of.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but were you that nine year old as well?

Niki Keyhani: I was that three year old. Like everyone at 7 p.m., we [00:02:20] need to go up and brush our teeth because control. Let’s go guys. Yeah, 100%. [00:02:25] Yeah. It was that one. That was that one. All right.

Payman Langroudi: So look the benefits of that are obvious. Is [00:02:30] there a downside to it as well.

Niki Keyhani: I, I worry that I can be [00:02:35] narrow minded because sometimes when you’re so focussed. Yeah, sometimes when you’re too focussed, [00:02:40] I don’t want that to take away opportunities or other insights [00:02:45] I could have. So I’m constantly have to like check in on myself and make sure that [00:02:50] that’s not the case. Make sure I don’t just blind in make sure I don’t just narrow in. Um, [00:02:55] but again, I think people influence you. And the lucky thing I have is I have [00:03:00] a family. I have a sister who’s not in healthcare at all and is she’s a solicitor. And [00:03:05] sometimes there are situations. She’s the opposite of me, polar opposite. She’s ambitious.

Payman Langroudi: You’re [00:03:10] older, she’s older.

Niki Keyhani: So sometimes there will be situations where I think, what [00:03:15] would what would Nina do? What would she do? How would she cope with this scenario? And then it just kind of [00:03:20] reminds you that there’s there’s more than one.

Payman Langroudi: You have like sibling rivalry around like, no.

Niki Keyhani: Not [00:03:25] at all.

Payman Langroudi: So were you the brainy one and she was the funny one or what was the what was [00:03:30] the funny one?

Niki Keyhani: Because you haven’t.

Payman Langroudi: Got kids, have you? No. [00:03:35] So with kids, what tends to happen is the kid says something funny and [00:03:40] you laugh at it, and then that’s like positive feedback. So they say something funny, then you [00:03:45] start saying he’s funny.

Niki Keyhani: He’s the funny one.

Payman Langroudi: He’s the funny one. And then the next one comes along. [00:03:50] Yeah, funny. He’s taken.

Niki Keyhani: They have to take their.

Payman Langroudi: Own role and maybe gets a good grade on a thing. And you [00:03:55] say, oh, he’s clever. He’s like. And then the next one comes along and he like kicks the ball. But [00:04:00] funny and clever are taken. And they say billionaires are fourth kids because [00:04:05] everything’s taken. So they have to become quite, quite, quite inventive with with what they [00:04:10] are.

Niki Keyhani: I hadn’t heard that one before, but I like that. Um, luckily, no, not in [00:04:15] our scenario. Not in our situation. I mean, there’s six and a half years between us.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I see.

Niki Keyhani: So it wasn’t rivalry. It [00:04:20] was very much guidance. And, you know, wanting to follow in her footsteps. [00:04:25]

Payman Langroudi: Like she’s at the next stage of life now that.

Niki Keyhani: You said yeah, she’s got my little niece and [00:04:30] she’s she’s in that world. Yeah. Which is nice. It’s nice to be [00:04:35] an aunt.

Payman Langroudi: You being. I mean, I’m calling it ambitious, but all I’m saying is like going [00:04:40] to Kings and then coming out and then going to the Eastman and then. Which you did [00:04:45] right for for a PG and then deciding to specialise, starting a squat. [00:04:50] You know, you’re this cat who’s, who’s doing loads of things and in a [00:04:55] short space of time. Have you? Are you going for the I want it all [00:05:00] move like.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, pretty.

Payman Langroudi: Much husband.

Niki Keyhani: Children. What was driving me [00:05:05] throughout all of that.

Payman Langroudi: Wanting it.

Niki Keyhani: All. I want it all. Like my dad would be the main person who’d be [00:05:10] like, Nicky, you don’t need to do everything at once. Yeah. And I was like, I don’t need to, but wouldn’t it be great?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:05:15] No, no.

Niki Keyhani: Great.

Payman Langroudi: Do you accept do you accept that like, with any endeavour that’s like remarkable. [00:05:20] Like, I’d say what you’ve done is quite remarkable. Thank you. There is a degree of sacrifice. [00:05:25] Yeah. Like for me. Look, we brought out a desensitiser pen. One, one little pen. [00:05:30] It wasn’t like space X or something. One little pen in that period. In that final [00:05:35] period, the last six weeks before we brought it out, there was so much going on from the manufacturer, [00:05:40] the regulatory perspective, in that six week period, I saw less of my children [00:05:45] and I missed. I missed the birthday or the birthday.

Niki Keyhani: There’s those sacrifices.

Payman Langroudi: So you must have made loads [00:05:50] of sacrifices.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, look, there’s loads of those kind of sacrifices, but actually I’m very much the [00:05:55] opposite to that because I feel like when I was growing up, there was a lot of and not inside my house, [00:06:00] but outside the house there would be teachers who’d be like, you know, do you want to be academic or do you [00:06:05] want to be this? Or they would be both. Yeah, both. Why do I have to choose? Why does it have [00:06:10] to be business orientated or clinical? Why can’t I do both in this world, in this day and [00:06:15] age? That’s what AI and everything is.

Payman Langroudi: Except that there are situations like do you want [00:06:20] to be private or do you want to be NHS? Both. That’s. Yeah, that’s.

Niki Keyhani: A different sacrifice.

Payman Langroudi: Do you want [00:06:25] to have children or do you want both? There are certain situations which which that applies to. So [00:06:30] my point is this for someone who wants everything, wants it all. Yeah.

Niki Keyhani: There’s [00:06:35] a what have you sacrificed?

Payman Langroudi: There’s a sacrifice. There’s a sacrifice that’s happening as you want it all. [00:06:40] So you can’t have it all because, look, you just sacrificed all this stuff. This stuff you haven’t got anymore. Yeah, those birthday parties [00:06:45] you didn’t get to. Yeah. So. So there’s that point. But then, especially for a woman, I don’t want [00:06:50] to be silly about it, it, but it’s different for a woman.

Niki Keyhani: I love this question. You’re [00:06:55] choosing the good ones.

Payman Langroudi: Especially this question. Woman. Yeah. Kids, husbands. Uh, [00:07:00] you know, and we were just talking about single practice or 42. Yeah. Something’s got to give. Something’s [00:07:05] got to give. Now, what is the thing that.

Niki Keyhani: Giving.

Payman Langroudi: That one? Well, let me tell you. Let me tell you. Let me tell you what? My experience of what gifts. [00:07:10] Yeah. Certainly not the business. Yeah. Because the business is its own little child. [00:07:15] Like if you let that give you, it’s going to.

Niki Keyhani: Have one baby.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You’re going to go bankrupt and there’s [00:07:20] going to be much more pain. Certainly not the child here. Because as a child you can’t you [00:07:25] can’t let that give. Um, so it ends up being a combination of yourself. [00:07:30] Yeah. Like maybe you go to Pilates twice a week. That stops the [00:07:35] relationship itself sometimes gives stuff. Gives. Yeah. [00:07:40] And I think the more sort of rounded way of looking at it is that some stuff will give. Yeah. It’s a [00:07:45] question of managing that stuff. Yeah. Because it’s a trap you can fall into. I’ve [00:07:50] been in it myself. Where you’re so hyper focussed. Kind of what you said. You’re so hyper laser [00:07:55] focussed on the goal that some things around the outside, you’re completely missing. And [00:08:00] just. It’s a healthy way of looking at it that some stuff will give rather than the disappointment [00:08:05] of. I didn’t manage to get it all.

Niki Keyhani: I haven’t felt that way. I [00:08:10] know this is not the answer you want, but.

Payman Langroudi: Haven’t got.

Niki Keyhani: There yet. Well, okay. So again, I was [00:08:15] this growing up very focussed, laser focussed kind of [00:08:20] person in my mind. My 20s were for me, my 20s were so that I could [00:08:25] develop my dreams and my ambitions, my passion. I am, [00:08:30] I’m just hitting. Yeah. 31 now. Um, and that’s [00:08:35] what it was for me. My 20s were every social occasion. I would make sure I was there because [00:08:40] I wanted to live. I wanted to experience travelling. Did it. There’s nothing that I haven’t [00:08:45] allowed myself. But absolutely, my focus was on my career, my [00:08:50] work and my ambition. And the beauty of that is that I always thought 30 [00:08:55] sound amazing. 30 are the years where I’m financially stable, I’m comfortable, [00:09:00] I’m not stressed. And now I can focus on part two of my five stage life [00:09:05] plan, you know? So yes, I’m sure there are sacrifices, but the beauty of [00:09:10] the way I don’t feel this narrative we give women of, [00:09:15] you know, if you want to be career orientated, be prepared to sacrifice family. No, don’t [00:09:20] don’t send out that propaganda out there. That’s not true. Like, especially within dentistry. I’m [00:09:25] in this point now where I work three.

Payman Langroudi: Days a week. You went to dentistry was so that you could [00:09:30] be flexible.

Niki Keyhani: I wouldn’t say it’s one of the main reasons, but it definitely had an impact. I thought, you know, this is a [00:09:35] career where not only am I clinical, not only is it scientific based, I enjoy it, but also [00:09:40] it makes sense as a lifestyle 100%. So I went from in September, I was [00:09:45] comfortably working five, six, seven days a week, evenings because you’re doing the admin, you’re [00:09:50] doing your lab work, all of that within the training program. And now I’m three days a week. You [00:09:55] know, it’s a completely different world. But absolutely, I’m now calm and I don’t [00:10:00] feel like there’s anything I have to sacrifice.

Payman Langroudi: And is that the way it’s going to be three days a week?

Niki Keyhani: I didn’t say that. I [00:10:05] said, Now I’m three days.

Payman Langroudi: Three days a week. While you were on the course, were you? [00:10:10] No, no.

Niki Keyhani: Definitely not. Definitely not. That was a that was a whole other ball game. [00:10:15]

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Let’s, let’s, let’s start from the beginning then how were you as a student?

Niki Keyhani: Which part? [00:10:20] Unlike undergraduate.

Payman Langroudi: Dental student.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Because in school you were very high achieving.

Niki Keyhani: I [00:10:25] actually I was a bit like, do what I need to pass, and then I’m [00:10:30] okay.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. How were you as an undergrad?

Niki Keyhani: Because I also wanted to do everything socially. Yeah. Like any social occasion, [00:10:35] I was like, yeah, I should I should experience every part of university.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah. So you grew up in [00:10:40] East Sussex.

Niki Keyhani: West Sussex, West Sussex.

Payman Langroudi: Come to London, the big city. Go [00:10:45] on. Who are you? Were you the party girl? Who were you? Which. Which student were you?

Niki Keyhani: I [00:10:50] was the chilled cat, you know. If there was something fun, I’d be there.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:10:55] as a student, did you find the work hard? The clinical hard. The exams hard?

Niki Keyhani: Luckily, [00:11:00] no. I felt like, um. I think because [00:11:05] for me, it was something I’d always wanted so bad.

Payman Langroudi: Really? How [00:11:10] long? When did you decide you want to be a dentist?

Niki Keyhani: When I was three years old, maybe.

[BOTH]: Oh, really?

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. It’s something [00:11:15] I just wanted so bad.

Payman Langroudi: Like I knew this is what I wanted.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, because of my mum. [00:11:20] And then when I grew up, I was like, this actually makes sense for me. Like, I think this career encompasses [00:11:25] everything I’m looking for. Um, so. Yeah. And [00:11:30] then my only fear when I started dental school was what actually happens if I hate this? [00:11:35] I don’t have a plan B. I’ve never, you know, daydreamed about something [00:11:40] else. This is what I’ve wanted since forever. What happens if I don’t like this? And obviously, [00:11:45] I mean, you know, there’s so many people who start dentistry and they get to year three, four, five and they go, actually, [00:11:50] I hate this.

Payman Langroudi: But also, did you not get that feeling? I’d say PhD [00:11:55] plus one because PhD is still a bit of fun, right? It’s still you still got a [00:12:00] group with you and yeah, there’s this sort of anything could happen, right? But PhD plus one. I remember [00:12:05] the first day in that practice I was in Kent, actually. Same story.

Niki Keyhani: Isn’t it? Amazing?

Payman Langroudi: English [00:12:10] people.

Niki Keyhani: Beautiful part of the world.

Payman Langroudi: Wonderful, wonderful. Really nice people. Yeah, but. But I remember sitting [00:12:15] in this room thinking, is this. It was that was that. Is this what all of that [00:12:20] was about, sitting in this room? And honestly, one of the initial sparks [00:12:25] of where enlightened might have come across was this childish feeling of even if I’m [00:12:30] the best dentist in the whole wide world, I’m only going to affect the four mile radius of Ashford, [00:12:35] Kent. And that practice and thinking.

Niki Keyhani: That’s your ambition, talking.

Payman Langroudi: That really. But that really did my head in. It [00:12:40] was childish. It was childish because I could have had 400 practices If I wanted to write, but I wasn’t thinking [00:12:45] that, and I was thinking of some way of getting out of that scenario where my impact was only on this four mile radius, [00:12:50] doing my head in. Yeah, but but forget that the disappointment of it. I mean, your mom was a [00:12:55] dentist, so you kind of understood.

Niki Keyhani: Well, yes, but also [00:13:00] no, because when you’re. I mean, we’ve all done it. Watch someone do dentistry and [00:13:05] you will genuinely think. Should I be doing this career? It is terrible to watch. Like, it’s [00:13:10] like watching paint dry. I’ve never been so bored in my life. Like she used to say all the time. She. You know. [00:13:15] Are you sure you want to do this career? Are you sure you don’t want to try something else? Are you sure? Because every time I [00:13:20] would go into the practice, I would be bored. And I would just say, can I go now? Like, this is watching dentistry is [00:13:25] so boring, but watching it and doing it is something completely different.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, true.

Niki Keyhani: Experiencing it, doing [00:13:30] something. You know, patients come in straight away. You’re clinical. I’m doing something is a different [00:13:35] ball game and it’s enjoyable and it keeps you on your toes.

Payman Langroudi: From the ambition perspective. Did you have [00:13:40] a thing in your head that you know? My mum was a general dentist, so I’m going to be a specialist. [00:13:45] Like was there something like that? No. Were there things about your watching your mum, things that you wanted [00:13:50] to do and things that you want to avoid? You want to be different to?

Niki Keyhani: There wasn’t that. But [00:13:55] I did use her as my inspo whenever I was struggling. So, um, [00:14:00] so when she studied, she obviously she studied in Iran first universities [00:14:05] closed, then she moved to Sweden, started dentistry, which was completely different [00:14:10] to what she was studying in Iran beforehand.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I started first year again.

Niki Keyhani: Yes. So [00:14:15] she didn’t study dentistry in Iran. She was doing, I want to say, maths or chemistry. She wanted [00:14:20] to do engineering. And, um, kind of coming on to a biology lifestyle was [00:14:25] completely different for her. So she’s starting from scratch in a language she doesn’t know. And then she has a baby [00:14:30] during her university years as well. You know, that really typical Iranian lifestyle of [00:14:35] tiny one bedroom flat and in-laws around all the time. And so whenever I [00:14:40] was kind of struggling with something again, that’s when I think appreciation came into, you know, you humble yourself [00:14:45] really quick and you just think, who am I to complain.

Payman Langroudi: When she’s.

Niki Keyhani: Done? When I’ve just watched my, [00:14:50] you know, I’ve heard all the stories from my mum have it so much harder. Um, [00:14:55] yeah. People had it a lot tougher than I had it. So whenever [00:15:00] the practice that mclindon, the pgdip that kind of overlapped [00:15:05] a little bit were getting a bit overwhelming, who was I to just not take [00:15:10] it in my stride and be.

Payman Langroudi: The best way.

Niki Keyhani: To grateful 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Way to live with gratitude. You know, [00:15:15] even in.

Niki Keyhani: The.

Payman Langroudi: Worst of times, you always know that someone works.

Niki Keyhani: Because you need to be lucky. You have those problems. [00:15:20] You know, you need to be thankful that those problems are problems you’ve been dreaming about [00:15:25] having. Now that you have them, don’t back down. Yeah. You know, get up and smash [00:15:30] through them. This is what you’ve wanted. This is what you’ve been asking for. Make it happen. It’s in your [00:15:35] hands now. So, yeah, I don’t think it was me [00:15:40] learning from her mistakes. But it was me going. Even with the practice. Any [00:15:45] difficulty I have, she had it ten times harder. So you can [00:15:50] do this.

Payman Langroudi: But what was. What was like? What was her advice? At what point did you think I’m going to be a specialist, [00:15:55] or did you always think you were going to be a specialist?

Niki Keyhani: I tell my mom pretty much everything. I [00:16:00] didn’t tell anyone that I applied for specialist training. And, um, [00:16:05] so it was I think I’d been an associate for one year. I was 25 at the time when I set up the practice [00:16:10] and, um.

[BOTH]: Wow.

Payman Langroudi: Straight into practice ownership.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. And, [00:16:15] um, so.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think I’m going to work in a few places, see what’s what before?

Niki Keyhani: Yes. [00:16:20] So everything I feel like that happened. Happened because of opportunity. And [00:16:25] I’m definitely one of those people who I like to say yes to every occasion because it [00:16:30] puts you somewhere else. It gives you, you know, a chance that you may not have again. So the opportunity [00:16:35] arose and I wasn’t going to pass that up. You know, it.

Payman Langroudi: Was some practice game for sale. [00:16:40]

Niki Keyhani: No, it was. So it was a new build area. It was an area that, like, I knew really well. [00:16:45] It was kind of perfect for everything I would have dreamed about if I didn’t get it. Then. Then [00:16:50] you know, what.

Payman Langroudi: Was it about it that made it so perfect?

Niki Keyhani: Um, so new residential [00:16:55] area. Um, new square.

Payman Langroudi: One of these, like housing? Yeah. Development things.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. Like [00:17:00] nice new houses. Really nice area. Um, an area I knew super well [00:17:05] where, you know, everywhere around it has already been saturated by dental practices. It just kind of gave me [00:17:10] the things. It was like tick, tick, tick, tick, tick.

Payman Langroudi: And you were sure you were always going to set up back home?

Niki Keyhani: No, [00:17:15] I was sure I was going to set up a dental practice. I didn’t know exactly where.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re thinking [00:17:20] London even?

Niki Keyhani: No, I wasn’t thinking London.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Why not?

Niki Keyhani: London is different life. I come from [00:17:25] the West Sussex countryside. Life where everyone knows each other.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s super sure you were going to live outside London.

Niki Keyhani: I [00:17:30] knew.

Payman Langroudi: It was. You live in London?

Niki Keyhani: I live in London, but I knew my business would not be in London. I like that [00:17:35] kind of feeling. Where patients know me, I know patients. You know that.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:17:40] is totally different. It’s totally different to that. In London you get this sort of mobile patient [00:17:45] base that, you know, people are here for a year and then they’re gone. You get [00:17:50] a distrust, like you’re saying a distrust situation when people don’t know each other. Yeah, there’s a distrust. [00:17:55] I remember I came from Kent. I was killing it in Kent. I’d moved to another private [00:18:00] practice, and I was coming back to London, to the city. And I thought, if I’m killing it in Kent, imagine [00:18:05] me in the city, like I’m going to. I’m going to kill it. And I just. Everything [00:18:10] fell apart for me like that in Kent. I had these lovely older patients, you know, who would [00:18:15] say yes to everything? Respectful. No. No issue around sensitivity. [00:18:20] They had no, they had no pops. And then. And then I get to the city banker types here. So [00:18:25] hard to sell to a salesman. Yeah.

Niki Keyhani: Like it’s a different ball game.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You can’t be one minute [00:18:30] late. There isn’t any sort of love in that. Yeah, it’s just a Transactional [00:18:35] thing. People underestimate that fact.

Niki Keyhani: Oh it’s huge.

Payman Langroudi: You onto that.

Niki Keyhani: I was [00:18:40] straightaway like, London is not the place that I want to be working. I want a calm countryside [00:18:45] life. Where or for my work, at least where patients come [00:18:50] in. They trust me. We have a relationship. They know the team, they know the practice. And it feels a bit like family [00:18:55] because that’s what dental practices were to me when I was growing up. You know, I was walking home from primary school [00:19:00] to my mum’s place, kind of like, oh, hey, Millie. Hey, you know, Lindsey and. [00:19:05]

Payman Langroudi: The process itself of turning this building into a dental practice. Who helped you with [00:19:10] that?

Niki Keyhani: Well, so my dad’s an architect. Oh, lovely. Yeah. So, you know, [00:19:15] in that sense. Absolutely. I was, like, supported. And I was so [00:19:20] just incredibly lucky to have people around me who knew exactly what to do. [00:19:25] So I could just go to him and say, you know, I’d like this kind of design. I would like this kind of feel, [00:19:30] this kind of vibe. I would like this to be placed like this. And then he would do the drawings up. He would look after the construction. [00:19:35]

Payman Langroudi: And did it turn out the way you wanted it to?

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, it did. It absolutely [00:19:40] did. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I need to come and visit.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. You do. You’re welcome. Anytime. [00:19:45] You’re welcome.

Payman Langroudi: Any time. So then. Okay, now you’ve got you’ve got a beautiful practice. Zero [00:19:50] patience. Did you start the was it marketing process.

Niki Keyhani: So [00:19:55] I haven’t started. So five. We’re five years old August 3rd. So literally a couple days ago we turned five [00:20:00] up until four and maybe three quarters [00:20:05] of the years in no marketing.

Payman Langroudi: So what did you how did you get your first patient? [00:20:10] What will happen?

Niki Keyhani: Covid happened.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, God. Covid.

Niki Keyhani: Covid happened. So [00:20:15] we were meant to.

Payman Langroudi: Open massive push after Covid.

Niki Keyhani: So people tell me, oh, you [00:20:20] know so unfortunate about Covid for you. And I’m like, no. It was a huge help for me as a business, [00:20:25] hugely helpful as a business. So we were meant to open two weeks before lockdown [00:20:30] happened.

Payman Langroudi: It’s scary.

Niki Keyhani: And again, it becomes this [00:20:35] really like unknown time especially. I don’t know how to. I’ve never run a business before at this stage. [00:20:40] And now you’ve added a pandemic into it. And, um, it [00:20:45] was terrifying. Like genuinely terrifying. And then Covid ended. [00:20:50] We opened pretty much straight away as soon as we could. And there was this [00:20:55] list of patients begging to be seen because they couldn’t be seen anywhere, or, you [00:21:00] know, they.

Payman Langroudi: Had because it could be the worst timing or the best time. It was the best time.

Niki Keyhani: I feel so terrible referring [00:21:05] to a pandemic as a really great time for my business, but that’s truly what it was. It was so. [00:21:10]

Payman Langroudi: Thrown in at the deep end, right? Because then you had all the the what was [00:21:15] it called, PPE and the fallow time and all of that on top of.

Niki Keyhani: It at.

Payman Langroudi: That time, running a practice.

Niki Keyhani: At [00:21:20] that time. Yes, to all of that. But the, the biggest difficulty again. So add another complication. [00:21:25] Practice opens two weeks later. I’m due to start my, um clin dent.

[BOTH]: Oh.

Niki Keyhani: So. [00:21:30] And also there was intricacies in that as well, because [00:21:35] I was originally meant to go to Eastman, but for their lab course for the first three, four months, [00:21:40] you have to be full time. And I was I was just like, there is no way I can full time [00:21:45] leave this practice. Who’s just opening up? Team need me.

Payman Langroudi: Brave move [00:21:50] to start a practice and an implement at the same time.

Niki Keyhani: It wasn’t meant to be that way. I [00:21:55] didn’t plan it that way. Covid happened. Um, yeah, Covid [00:22:00] happened and changed my my timelines. Um, but I, I ran [00:22:05] with it again. Like, I’m not going to say no to an opportunity. I’m not going to say no to the chance [00:22:10] that, you know, starting in McLendon. I don’t know if I’m going to get that opportunity again. So [00:22:15] run you know.

Payman Langroudi: As far as the the education, how [00:22:20] did you feel about that? I mean, which part? All of it I mean the McLendon [00:22:25] part you’re you’re three you three years. Is it four years.

Niki Keyhani: So yeah. [00:22:30] So after undergrad, I didn’t really take any time off. Education. [00:22:35] I did like a little mini one. And then I did the diploma at Eastman, and [00:22:40] then I went straight on to the den. Yeah. Um, and that was three days a week for four years. [00:22:45] So we did part time, um.

Payman Langroudi: A fair degree of repetition in all of that, right? [00:22:50] Yeah, because a lot of a lot of I mean, a lot of it is the basics, [00:22:55] right? Getting the basics right. Yeah. A lot of people have gotten into bad habits and then they go, but you didn’t have that chance [00:23:00] to do that. But I guess clinically, you haven’t had much chance to to [00:23:05] try out the stuff on patients. So you hadn’t at the beginning.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. I mean, so that’s [00:23:10] kind of why I chose any. Course I did. It had to be part time. I didn’t want to completely stop my clinical [00:23:15] work. That’s the bit I enjoy. Um, and I would actually say so I [00:23:20] think it’s really, you know, under spoken about, but the diploma was amazing. [00:23:25] I to this day, I’m thankful for the education they gave me because it was extremely [00:23:30] thorough. The tutors were amazing. Yeah. It was. It was great.

Payman Langroudi: What’s [00:23:35] the full name of it?

Niki Keyhani: The pgdip in restorative dental practice. Um, [00:23:40] the tutors were incredible. Genuinely incredible. And they [00:23:45] are actually part of the reason why I then decided to specialise. Because, um, in [00:23:50] the first year I did quite well. And they kind of do one to ones with you. And the 1 [00:23:55] to 1 I had was with a prosthodontist and he said, you know, what are you thinking about your career [00:24:00] in the future? And I don’t know why I had no answer to this, because [00:24:05] it’s something that was constantly on my mind, but no one had ever even bothered to ask [00:24:10] me. Um, and that’s kind of when I thought about it. And [00:24:15] I went, well, I, I really don’t know. I have no answer to give you. What do you what do you think I should do? Give [00:24:20] me some advice. And he was like, you know, I think you’ve got the potential to specialise. Um. [00:24:25]

Payman Langroudi: I like the sound of that. Well.

Niki Keyhani: Honestly, [00:24:30] and again, this isn’t spoken about. I’m quite young looking, I would say. And I’m [00:24:35] female and that is classic underestimating. Oh, so [00:24:40] there was definitely no one who would go, hey, I think you’ve got something. Hey, I think it [00:24:45] was very much of underestimate. Underestimate. And he was like, no, I think you can do it. I [00:24:50] think you’ve got something here. I think you should think about it. And it’s like this guy went into like [00:24:55] an inception mode, planted it into my brain, and I was like, yup.

Payman Langroudi: Good [00:25:00] teacher.

Niki Keyhani: Got it. I’m there. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And yeah. Who was that? Who [00:25:05] was that?

Niki Keyhani: Uh, Neil Nathwani good teacher. Good teacher, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Someone who does that?

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. [00:25:10] Grateful for it.

Payman Langroudi: I’m so sorry. Sorry I had it off for the previous pod. [00:25:15] Um, yeah. So? So then [00:25:20] put it in your head.

Niki Keyhani: Put it in my head. And, um, the first thing anyone [00:25:25] tells you is you’re never going to get in on the first try. Yeah. Which I thought, great, [00:25:30] because I’m opening a practice. I don’t want to get in on the first try. I’ll apply. Um, got [00:25:35] in on the first try.

Payman Langroudi: And what did it take to get in an interview? [00:25:40] What else? Cv.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. So obviously online application reference [00:25:45] showcases. I don’t think you do. From my memory, you don’t know. You had to. [00:25:50] Obviously you had to do like a CV. You had to do references. [00:25:55] Um, very much like a Ucas kind of online [00:26:00] statement. Yeah, very much like that. Um, and then they invite you for interview [00:26:05] and then take it from there. Um, yeah. So.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re [00:26:10] saying it’s quite hard to get in?

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It was tough. Yeah.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, it was definitely. I mean, I didn’t think [00:26:15] it was going to be like that. I didn’t think the I was surprised by the level of questioning or their type [00:26:20] of questioning.

Payman Langroudi: Go on, go on.

Niki Keyhani: I mean, they asked me about clinical governance. Ooh, yeah. [00:26:25] That’s how I felt. And I just thought, you know, is. Is this what [00:26:30] it takes to be a specialist? You need me to know governance. Um.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:26:35] did you say to that?

Niki Keyhani: I answered.

Payman Langroudi: The questions. Well, you got it right. You [00:26:40] got it. So you.

Niki Keyhani: Got it. But I just I answered the questions and moved on. I mean, they obviously asked me a lot of clinical questions [00:26:45] as well, but I wasn’t expecting.

Payman Langroudi: Did they do they at what level did they ask the clinical questions? Did [00:26:50] they show you a case or something?

Niki Keyhani: So each interview was different. Um, [00:26:55] in one of them they would talk to me about cases and they would kind of talk about like, for example, what was hot in [00:27:00] prosthodontics at the time. So a lot about technology, a lot about, um, prosthetically [00:27:05] driven implant cases. Um, why you think it should be prosthetically [00:27:10] driven? Why not just, you know, whack it in where the bone is? These kind of questions, [00:27:15] which. Yeah, that’s the easy part, really, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Excuse me.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, [00:27:20] that’s the easy part. So yeah, it was good.

Payman Langroudi: Did you only look at kings?

Niki Keyhani: No. [00:27:25] Eastman. Eastman as well? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you didn’t get into Eastman?

Niki Keyhani: I did get into Eastman.

Payman Langroudi: So you decided [00:27:30] to go to King’s instead? Yes. Why?

Niki Keyhani: Because, Eastman, I would have had to do full [00:27:35] time.

Payman Langroudi: Full time? Yeah, that’s the one they call the marriage breaker or something. You [00:27:40] do all your own lab work?

Niki Keyhani: Yes. Yeah, yeah. It’s a lot of time.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:27:45] so tell me, like the dentist you were when you went in. And the dentist you are now. Like, what can you do [00:27:50] now? Can you, can you, like, pull off full mouth rehabs?

Niki Keyhani: I should hope so. It was four years [00:27:55] of my life.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So at what point in the course did that happen? Like, did they start at the very beginning? [00:28:00]

Niki Keyhani: That’s a good question, actually.

Payman Langroudi: Just talking to our mutual friend Eleanor. The first year she was sort [00:28:05] of.

Niki Keyhani: First year.

Payman Langroudi: Difficulty.

Niki Keyhani: She was first year is like now.

Payman Langroudi: She seems so [00:28:10] confident now as a as a clinician.

Niki Keyhani: Do you know what I think that’s the main thing for me is [00:28:15] that before I did the course, I, I could I had knowledge, [00:28:20] you know, I was definitely interested. I was definitely passionate about my clinical work. Um, but I [00:28:25] didn’t know that I could. I didn’t know where that theory was, like [00:28:30] putting into actual clinical work, how it was translating. Um, [00:28:35] and the point of the course, the reason why the course was amazing is because you’re on clinics three days a week. [00:28:40] So three days a week, I’ve got basically one on one time with my tutor where I’m performing [00:28:45] dentistry, and they’re just correcting me, correcting me, correcting me, correcting me. Um, yeah. [00:28:50] So what better what better way to learn? What better way to gain confidence [00:28:55] and know that you’re doing the right thing because you’ve just been corrected about a [00:29:00] hundred times? You’re not going to get it wrong one more time.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s talk about sort of aha moments or like aha [00:29:05] moments. Yeah aha moments in the clinical.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like at what point.

Niki Keyhani: Aha [00:29:10] moments. You mean when did you fuck up is what you’re trying to say basically. Yeah basically.

Payman Langroudi: Not [00:29:15] necessarily.

Niki Keyhani: But I feel that’s what you’re saying. I’m translating it for you basically.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s almost [00:29:20] like, I don’t know. Someone said to me, uh, occlusion. His aha moment was when he realised [00:29:25] it was as well as inside out. It was outside [00:29:30] in, um, he had an aha about that. Okay. Yeah. And he’s in veneers and things and that made a big difference [00:29:35] to the way he thought about veneers. So you know nothing went wrong or maybe something did go wrong before. So [00:29:40] what would you say. I mean it’s a ridiculous question. We’re talking about four years of study of a big subject. But [00:29:45] what comes to mind as aha moments like in the, in the area of formal rehab, [00:29:50] in the area of anything, anything you like.

Niki Keyhani: Ah ha moment, I would say, [00:29:55] I’m going to say a very obvious one planning like [00:30:00] if you how.

Payman Langroudi: Important planning.

Niki Keyhani: Is, how important you need to have that final, you know, [00:30:05] look in your mind, in the patient’s mind and then you’re just working towards it. You know, [00:30:10] you’re starting from the end and then making your way back. Um, so yeah, just [00:30:15] the the importance of the wax up, the try and the mock up and just making sure everything there is perfect, [00:30:20] and then you don’t need to worry about anything after that because the the case is planned and any complication [00:30:25] you’re prepared for because you’ve planned. So yeah, not underestimating [00:30:30] that section.

Payman Langroudi: And what about the sort of I mean, you haven’t had much chance to [00:30:35] or have you to, to, to to do it on real patients. Yeah. I mean in [00:30:40] practice. Yeah. So do they teach you that the, the sort of the patient management side of it, [00:30:45] or did you learn that as you go or.

Niki Keyhani: I mean they learnt you learn it as you go. But [00:30:50] obviously each case is different. Yeah. So you’re never there’s never going to be a case. This is the thing in dentistry [00:30:55] that we’re never really, truly taught. How do you deal with the impossible patient? And [00:31:00] I’m not talking clinically impossible because we’ve got textbooks for that. But there’s no textbook on what do you do [00:31:05] when the patient says something inappropriate or, you know, the [00:31:10] grey areas that we don’t really talk about, but we moan about. But there’s never a solution. There’s never [00:31:15] a lesson.

Payman Langroudi: I think the thing is though, if a if the same patient came to [00:31:20] you and came to me, I haven’t practised for 12 years. But let’s just imagine.

Niki Keyhani: We’ll [00:31:25] deal with it.

Payman Langroudi: Differently. The guy I was, the dentist I was when I stopped practising dentistry totally [00:31:30] deal with it differently. I’d be very like single tooth quadrant [00:31:35] orientated. I’d be very, very cosmetic orientated. Um, you’ve [00:31:40] got the skills to understand, like, you know, tooth wear and all that. And so you may have to break [00:31:45] to him a £30,000 idea, um, on [00:31:50] tooth wear, whereas I might not have even noticed this tooth wear going on. And I’m just [00:31:55] talking about.

Niki Keyhani: Which happens all the time.

Payman Langroudi: All the time.

Niki Keyhani: All the time.

Payman Langroudi: And I could just be talking about one crown at £1,000. [00:32:00] Yeah. Where something’s broken. Yeah. So what I’m saying is when you’ve got the knowledge, you’ve [00:32:05] got the situations where you can have to say these sort of things to patients who might not even [00:32:10] thought they had a problem 100%. So when what comes to mind like navigating that, is [00:32:15] it something that is it like the way they say sort of green, amber, red, where you start with the very basic [00:32:20] things, build a relationship, drop hints like what do you do?

Niki Keyhani: Honestly, [00:32:25] no, I don’t go by the green, amber, red. Um, but it is a problem [00:32:30] that I would say in Prosthodontists have to deal with all the time of basically [00:32:35] bringing things up that the general dentist doesn’t talk about.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Niki Keyhani: And the main thing we get is why didn’t they [00:32:40] pick it up?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Niki Keyhani: And you have to be intricate with your answer because you’re not [00:32:45] going to throw the general under the bus. And also you don’t need to throw them under the bus. They haven’t done anything [00:32:50] wrong. It’s just you may have picked up a few extra things. And I think as [00:32:55] long as you’re the I think the best way to sell is to be honest. Because [00:33:00] honesty is always the best answer in terms of if you [00:33:05] say to me, should I have a composite or amalgam? My honest, honest answer is composite. And [00:33:10] that just so happens to be the more expensive answer as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but the honest answer is this [00:33:15] dentist didn’t have the skill to understand what.

Niki Keyhani: But it’s about wording. Is it [00:33:20] that they didn’t have the skill, or is it that you know they are there to pick up, you know, [00:33:25] some common dental caries and decay and gum disease? And they’ve done that and now [00:33:30] they’ve identified that there’s something deeper. And that’s what they referred you to me for. So they’ve done their job. [00:33:35] They’ve identified that it needs to be taken one step higher. Um, and now I’m here [00:33:40] to do the rest. You know.

Payman Langroudi: There is a referral rate.

Niki Keyhani: If there is a referral.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So how much of your work is [00:33:45] that referral based now?

Niki Keyhani: I’d probably say 10%.

Payman Langroudi: 10%?

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s early days. [00:33:50]

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, it’s early days, but definitely 90% of my cases are actually patients. Again, [00:33:55] what I’m learning with prosthodontics is it’s patients who are unhappy. They’ve [00:34:00] just had treatment. Something’s gone wrong, and then they come to you seeking a second [00:34:05] opinion, or it’ll be the dentist has attempted something’s gone wrong, and then they’ve [00:34:10] referred to you to kind of fix it. Um, which is great because sometimes [00:34:15] it lowers the patient’s expectations. They’re a bit more realistic sometimes with their [00:34:20] expectations, because they’ve gone through a bad scenario already. Um, but [00:34:25] yeah, it’s it’s a hard one to navigate its treacherous waters.

Payman Langroudi: And do you get [00:34:30] something you must. It might not happen yet, but you must get the, the you know, the nightmare [00:34:35] patient referred.

Niki Keyhani: I had two in the last week.

Payman Langroudi: Referred to you?

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:34:40] that’s what sometimes happens to dentists. This patient is a nightmare for whatever number [00:34:45] of reasons that that can happen. And the dentist just thinks this can’t be bothered and [00:34:50] says, go see, go see an expert.

Niki Keyhani: Which, by the way, is what I did when I was a general. Yeah. You know, [00:34:55] that’s that’s what that’s what they’re there for.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what you guys are there for.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then, so then the approach [00:35:00] of that one is difficult. Right. Because you know, by the way, it’s happened to me a lot with the our [00:35:05] customers would send we we’d want to try out our next idea [00:35:10] on the hardest cases of them all. And so we put a thing out with our customers.

Niki Keyhani: But then it’s so [00:35:15] hard to say that because when we say the hardest case or when we say difficult patients. Each case is different. Yeah. [00:35:20] And that’s what it’s about. It’s about identifying why is this case different? Is it because of a clinical reason. [00:35:25] Because you can you can, you know, get by that as long as you’ve kind of explained everything thoroughly, you’ve written the [00:35:30] letter, you’ve drawn it in like two or 3 or 4 times. Is it because maybe [00:35:35] character wise, is it expectations? Because that’s the [00:35:40] first point, just identifying what kind of patient they are, what they’re expecting from [00:35:45] you so that you can make sure that you’re able to achieve that. And I have done that before where I’ve said yes, [00:35:50] I’m working at a specialist level now, but I don’t think I can achieve [00:35:55] what you have in your mind. And that’s not about skill, that’s not about, you know, even if I sent [00:36:00] you to the most talented dentist in the world, it’s not about that. It’s about are you being realistic? [00:36:05] Um, and so that problem doesn’t go away.

Payman Langroudi: Just when you draw that line, Is [00:36:10] it like more a sixth sense spidey sense thing or it’s.

Niki Keyhani: Partly intuition, [00:36:15] but then there’s, you know, it’s experience. There’s red flags that you see. There’s little things that.

Payman Langroudi: Pop up those what are those? [00:36:20] So, you know, you’re, you know, you’re a guitar. It’s. Yeah. So I asked her [00:36:25] this same question and she said, if, for instance, she can’t see the thing that [00:36:30] the patient’s seeing, then she’s hundred percent not going to treat that patient if she can see, [00:36:35] even if it’s a very small thing, there’s a much bigger chance that she’ll she’ll try and treat it. [00:36:40] But with the with the warning sign that, okay, we can both see this, but it’s very small. So is [00:36:45] that going to be a difficult patient. So you know obviously obviously we can’t see it. Stay [00:36:50] away. But you know what are the things I mean a lot of it tends to be psychological [00:36:55] right.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah I think for me it’s when. So I have my consult [00:37:00] I give them a letter. We speak through, explain everything, send them a letter x, y, z. [00:37:05] And then I’ll have like a review with them where they can ask me any questions if I feel we’re kind of going [00:37:10] through the same points again and again and again and again.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a good. [00:37:15]

Niki Keyhani: One. That’s a good one. And then they message and then they email, and then they call me again to go through the same points. [00:37:20] I just turn around and say, I don’t think you’re ready because you haven’t [00:37:25] settled.

Payman Langroudi: On.

Niki Keyhani: This in your mind. Um, so there’s no reason [00:37:30] why we should pick up a drill if you’re not prepared mentally, because that’s a big, big undertaking, you [00:37:35] know?

Payman Langroudi: So we’ll get onto mistakes, but let’s talk about it right now. Have you ever misjudged that one? And taken. Yes, [00:37:40] taken. You have. So so talk me through the pain of of of of a particular case [00:37:45] where you took something on. Yeah. The most painful.

Niki Keyhani: The most painful. Oh, [00:37:50] I have a juicy one. Okay. I actually have one from my DFT. Okay. [00:37:55]

Payman Langroudi: But you weren’t the specialist about.

Niki Keyhani: Oh, I’ve got clinical ones for.

Payman Langroudi: The.

Niki Keyhani: Specialist one. Yeah, I’ve got [00:38:00] a little bit of both for you. Don’t you.

Payman Langroudi: Worry. Okay. Let’s go. Let’s get into the darker part of the pod.

Niki Keyhani: Not [00:38:05] handling patient. Patient management. I would say when I was a foundation dentist, I [00:38:10] had a patient come in classic not been in in 20 years. Carries everywhere. [00:38:15] Perio everywhere. Um and at that time you were an FD. [00:38:20] So you’re giving them beautiful like £2,000 plans on [00:38:25] a band two NHS basis. As long as you can have the experience, you’re happy [00:38:30] to provide it. As long as your educational supervisor gives you the thumbs up, you’re happy to go ahead. Um, [00:38:35] and I’m doing all of this thinking I’m such a good person, you know, I’m [00:38:40] such a good person to be giving so much time to this. You know, one on one time, [00:38:45] I’m calling this person. I’m writing letters in my own free time and planning with the study [00:38:50] model, I feel great. And, um, the red flags [00:38:55] I missed is he. Which I didn’t miss, I heard, but I ignored is him telling [00:39:00] me his life story of how many people he’d been suing. And I think he had three lawsuits [00:39:05] as we were providing this dentistry. But also at the time, I didn’t know [00:39:10] that you could say no. You know, I didn’t know that. You could.

Payman Langroudi: Say, you don’t realise.

Niki Keyhani: I’m feeling [00:39:15] some red flags. I don’t think we should go ahead.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t realise that?

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. You just think, well, he’s not [00:39:20] done anything to me. There’s no reason why I should do anything. So we [00:39:25] go ahead with this plan, and, um, I provide a crown [00:39:30] prep. Oh, no. I’m doing a filling, an M.O.. Very, very simple case. Literally the last appointment [00:39:35] out of maybe 30 or 40. And, um, the [00:39:40] day after he calls and says he has now [00:39:45] got sepsis and he went to the hospital, and all of these complications [00:39:50] were in my head. I’m just thinking, how how does this even equate to that? [00:39:55] Um, and yeah, he he took the complaint the full way like [00:40:00] it was.

Payman Langroudi: But what had happened?

Niki Keyhani: Just, doing [00:40:05] a filling Grace’s gingiva or something like that. He bled. Nothing problematic. [00:40:10] Stopped bleeding like nothing that I could say clinically. I would have worried or be concerned about. [00:40:15] Mhm. Um, but yeah, it the place that it got taken [00:40:20] to was, you know in my opinion not a clinical thing. It was a scenario [00:40:25] thing. It was a patient management thing.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Niki Keyhani: It was about identifying what he was comfortable [00:40:30] with, what we should have provided and stopping before I got to that point really. Um, [00:40:35] so yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So he can.

Niki Keyhani: Live and you learn.

Payman Langroudi: He complained. What happened? [00:40:40]

Niki Keyhani: He complained. He sued. I think he got £900, £950.

Payman Langroudi: Was it one of those? The the [00:40:45] insurance company just wanted him to prove it.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. You can’t prove that you’ve done anything. But we can’t prove [00:40:50] that you haven’t. So we should settle it. And I was an FD. I was like.

Payman Langroudi: I must have left a [00:40:55] bad taste in your mouth.

Niki Keyhani: I was just shocked. I was like, is this what they’re talking about when they’re talking about defensive dentistry? Because [00:41:00] this is insane. What? What are we talking about? This is. This is crazy. [00:41:05] Um.

Payman Langroudi: Did it knock you back at all?

Niki Keyhani: Yes. [00:41:10] Yeah. In ways it it.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:41:15] early for that to happen.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, it is, but it’s. I’m glad it [00:41:20] happened then.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, it makes you stronger, right?

Niki Keyhani: It makes you stronger. And it teaches you off the bat to not [00:41:25] take the eye off the ball. Don’t you dare get overconfident because you need to keep [00:41:30] an eye on everything at all times. Um, and I did learn my first and only complaint, so. [00:41:35]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you haven’t had another one since.

Niki Keyhani: Touch the wood. Touch the wood right now. Um, [00:41:40] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, there’s going to be more. Yeah, there’s going to be more. There’s going to be 100%. [00:41:45]

Niki Keyhani: There’s going to be more. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, there’s.

Niki Keyhani: Going.

Payman Langroudi: To be, you know, it’s much more difficult [00:41:50] now than it was in my day insomuch as note taking.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I know [00:41:55] several of our customers here who have two nurses, you know, literally [00:42:00] the the practice runs better. We’re happy to pay that extra [00:42:05] nurse. Yeah, because you know the amount of money they make by paying that extra nurse the speed [00:42:10] of everything. Yeah. Um, but that is the notes. That’s the notes. Yeah. Because in my day, [00:42:15] it was like three lines. Yeah. You know.

Niki Keyhani: I wish that was still the case.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it makes [00:42:20] a big difference.

Niki Keyhani: Notes and admin is the worst part of my day.

Payman Langroudi: Well, the number of people who stay in an [00:42:25] hour or an hour and a half, two hours every day after the end of their last patient. [00:42:30]

Niki Keyhani: That’s me. I’m there two, three hours comfortably. Yes. Every day. Well, you have. [00:42:35]

Payman Langroudi: We used to finish the last patient. Leave. Walk out.

Niki Keyhani: Listen, there’s no way if I’ve seen a, you know, prostate [00:42:40] assessment. Yeah, I have to write notes. I have to write a letter. I have to write, you know, [00:42:45] instructions to my lab and communicate. And there’s so many. One day [00:42:50] of clinic for me is one day of admin for me, hands down. And I really wish [00:42:55] they said that in the disclaimer when I, you know, applied at the time of hey, yes, you’re [00:43:00] going for dentistry because it’s clinical. Great. By the way, there’s huge clinical governance [00:43:05] you need to think about. There’s huge admin that you need to think about. And you might get sued every other day. Keep [00:43:10] an eye on things at all times. There was no disclaimer. They didn’t write that on the Ucas application. Um, [00:43:15] you live and you learn.

Payman Langroudi: What about hero dog ticks? [00:43:20] Um, do you know what I mean by that? Yeah, yeah. Have you, have you, have you sometimes you must [00:43:25] have. Right. You must have had situations where there’s a certain tooth. Not 100% sure [00:43:30] if you can save it or not. You just you’ve just got like, your egos going a bit like you can you can [00:43:35] do something you couldn’t do before. Some deep margin innovation or something.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:43:40] and it hasn’t worked.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about one of those.

Niki Keyhani: Exactly [00:43:45] that. Exactly that. I looked at the case and I was like, this tooth is not restorable. [00:43:50] And it’s really, really simple case. No. The guy just looked at me and he went, please. And I went, [00:43:55] all right, nothing else. I was like, okay, you’ve you’ve convinced me. I’m sold. And [00:44:00] there I am doing like a post call. By the way, I think maybe one of the first posts I’d ever done as well. So [00:44:05] post call Crown and I turn around at the end and go, look, I give this like two months. This isn’t gonna [00:44:10] work. Um, and lo and behold, I think maybe two months, two months and [00:44:15] a week later, he comes back with the crown in his hand and, um. Yeah, again, live and [00:44:20] you learn. The good thing is, I chose it on the right patient. Yeah, yeah, I did something [00:44:25] clinically that wasn’t going to work, but I did it on a patient where I said, I don’t think this is going to work. He [00:44:30] was nice. We were on, you know, with an understanding, refunded his money and that’s it. You [00:44:35] know, that was the end of the story.

Payman Langroudi: But what I’m saying is it’s kind of the nature of being at a cutting [00:44:40] edge.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That you’re going to do push, push the boundaries a little.

Niki Keyhani: Bit and you need to push the [00:44:45] boundaries. That’s how.

Payman Langroudi: We learn.

Niki Keyhani: Yes, exactly. You need to push the boundaries. You need to experience. Otherwise [00:44:50] you’re not going to know what the limit is. Yeah. If you just keep working under the line.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:44:55]

Niki Keyhani: I mean, more than anything, that’s boring.

Payman Langroudi: Know that.

Niki Keyhani: Too. You’re gonna get bored. You’re going to be doing dentistry [00:45:00] for the rest of your life. Do you just want it to be doing the same thing every day?

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know, you’re absolutely right. [00:45:05] So where do you think your career is going to go next?

Niki Keyhani: Oh, this is the. Tell [00:45:10] me. Please tell me. So this is the bit that I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Now if you’ve done implants. No.

Niki Keyhani: So. [00:45:15] Oh, that’s actually where my, you know, the clinical mistake. Oh, you’ve [00:45:20] done an implant story, have you? It’s an implant story. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, go on, go on. Let’s do that.

Niki Keyhani: Are you sure?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, 100%.

Niki Keyhani: Um, [00:45:25] so this was during my implant, then you do [00:45:30] you. I did maybe, like, ten patients. Implant cases, some edentulous, some not. And, [00:45:35] um, it’s one of my first few and kind of way of background. I didn’t do DCT. [00:45:40] I don’t have a surgical background, so this is out of my comfort zone for sure. Um, [00:45:45] and my McAlinden was amazing. [00:45:50] Absolutely amazing. But all the tutors are these incredible. [00:45:55] Incredibly talented clinicians, all male and [00:46:00] my fellow students as well. It was me and five guys, so it was a very [00:46:05] male orientated kind of environment. And quite [00:46:10] often it was a very much like a no weakness kind of zone. You [00:46:15] don’t want to show any weakness. So I’m going there for one of my first few implant cases with [00:46:20] no surgical, and I’m like, no weakness. I’ve got this. I know what I’m doing, [00:46:25] I have no clue. And maybe I’ve like looked it up, but I don’t know anything. And, um, [00:46:30] my for some reason, my tutor has too much faith in me and he’s [00:46:35] like, yeah, do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Next step. Go on.

Niki Keyhani: You’ve got it. You go go go go. And at this point I’ve [00:46:40] got through like I’ve elevated the flap. I’ve elevated the flap, I’ve done the [00:46:45] entire drill sequence. Implant is in fixtures. Looking good. Last step. If anyone’s [00:46:50] done implants, they know I was putting the cover screw at this point, so I was 99% [00:46:55] all the way through. It gets better. So, um, the patient is, [00:47:00] by the way, sedated. Okay. And I’m, like, screwing this cover. Screw in [00:47:05] as soon as I, like, breathe a sigh of relief that I’m. [00:47:10] I’ve made it like I fooled this guy to thinking I know what I’m doing. Um. [00:47:15] I seem to not be able to see it anymore. And obviously straight [00:47:20] up panic where I’m like, they’ve inhaled it, you know, they’re they’re under [00:47:25] sedation. They don’t have the gag reflex. They’ve inhaled it. We need to order a chest x ray. Um, [00:47:30] and he can tell that I’m a little bit stressed out. And he says to me, Nikki, what’s going on? And I went, [00:47:35] no, no, no, I’m fine. I’m just like, wait, I.

Payman Langroudi: Need patient or the supervisor.

Niki Keyhani: Supervisor. [00:47:40] I’m like, wait, like I’m looking. And he was like, what’s going on? What’s going on? And I went, I’ve lost the screw. Like [00:47:45] the screw is down. He comes and takes a look. He’s searching [00:47:50] a little bit. And then he looks at me and he’s like ordered the chest x ray as I’m ordering the chest x ray, he [00:47:55] turns around and he goes, Nicky, do you know what you’ve done? And I went, yeah, I know what I’ve done. Like, I’ve dropped the cover screw [00:48:00] down her throat. And he went, no, no, you’ve pushed the implant into the sinus.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. [00:48:05] So it was still there. It was still there. You just couldn’t see it because it was submerged. [00:48:10]

Niki Keyhani: Gone straight up and. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Niki Keyhani: And the [00:48:15] most clinically like wasn’t prepared [00:48:20] for moment. Became the best learning moment I’ve ever had [00:48:25] in dentistry ever. Because now I’m watching this incredible, incredible clinician [00:48:30] like admire him so much. Whip it out. If here we go. Sinus lift. And I’m like [00:48:35] what is happening? Like straight away retrieving this implant. Um [00:48:40] and I’m just sitting there suctioning impressed with everything kind of obviously [00:48:45] wishing I hadn’t done it, but at the same time grateful that this is what I get to see as a result.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:48:50] what have you done wrong?

Niki Keyhani: I had.

Payman Langroudi: Too far.

Niki Keyhani: Drilled [00:48:55] too far and pushed it too much. Fractured fracture. The bone fracture the bone so that it [00:49:00] had gone straight through the fixture was too close.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t you guys like planet?

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. We do. Yeah. Prosthodontic [00:49:05] driven implant planning. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have you [00:49:10] been to teen you just because you’ve never done it before, right, I.

Niki Keyhani: Think, yeah, I’ve never done it before. And [00:49:15] like, I’m going based off my stent, off my plan. But, you know, mistakes get made. Maybe I’m a millimetre [00:49:20] too mesial.

Payman Langroudi: Are you were flying with it again or not?

Niki Keyhani: Am I fine with it again?

Payman Langroudi: Are you [00:49:25] fine with it? Like so. Were you cool?

Niki Keyhani: I loved that one [00:49:30] because. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Affect you in any way?

Niki Keyhani: No, that one didn’t because clinically it was managed [00:49:35] like I knew the patient was okay. So my heart was calm and also the patient was lovely. [00:49:40] I explained it to her, you know, later she was totally fine with it. So that one fine. [00:49:45] You know, if anything, it was just a learning experience. It was a complication, but one that taught [00:49:50] me so much. It was a positive thing. Um, but yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have you ever been in a situation where [00:49:55] you you’ve sort of lost confidence, doubted yourself like. [00:50:00]

Niki Keyhani: Every other day.

Payman Langroudi: Felt sad, felt sad, felt sad, and couldn’t [00:50:05] get over the sadness of some mistake that was made. And because the reason I’m asking this is because [00:50:10] it’s very common. And by the way, sometimes it’s common for like for mistakes [00:50:15] that you wouldn’t even worry about, but depends on the person. Yeah. Um, some people invest [00:50:20] too much into their identity as a top [00:50:25] clinician. Yeah. And then so when something goes wrong in the clinical area.

Niki Keyhani: We beat ourselves. [00:50:30]

Payman Langroudi: Up. They really beat themselves up. Yeah I’m sure you’re very rounded person or whatever. So [00:50:35] you’ve got other things in your life apart from being a dentist. But have you ever been in that situation? What [00:50:40] I think I would say is a patient who’s maybe for me happened once complained that [00:50:45] I’d been careless, where at the time I was trying to be Triply careful. [00:50:50] And just that disconnect between what I thought I was projecting and the patient saying that [00:50:55] disconnect really affect you. I didn’t like it at all. I still think about it sometimes. Now, have you had that sort [00:51:00] of situation?

Niki Keyhani: Um, so honestly, I would say I feel that more as a [00:51:05] business owner.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really?

Niki Keyhani: Than I do as a clinician. Um, [00:51:10] because I do feel a insane [00:51:15] amount of weight of being a practice on staff. [00:51:20] Yeah. I remember being like 20 straight when I opened the practice. I was 25, and then [00:51:25] maybe around 26, I had a feeling of, oh my God, am I? Am I never going to have a day off ever [00:51:30] again? Because how can I? I’m responsible for other people. How can I ever grant [00:51:35] myself a day to myself when I should be at all times [00:51:40] working to improve and working to better because I’m responsible? Um, [00:51:45] so definitely as a business owner, I’m constantly questioning myself, especially [00:51:50] because I feel like I’ve. I still feel like I’ve constantly got something to prove.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:51:55]

Niki Keyhani: Whenever you. Whenever I meet someone and they hear I’m [00:52:00] a business owner or I have a practice, the first question is by yourself. You [00:52:05] second question is. Oh, did you just did you just set it up? Oh, did you buy it? [00:52:10] Oh, you did a squat. The amount of disbelief and amount of, you [00:52:15] know, kind of looking at you with wanting to poke holes in the story that you have. [00:52:20]

Payman Langroudi: I feel like your radar.

Payman Langroudi: For this is a bit oversensitive.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe for good reason, right. [00:52:25] Maybe. Maybe you’ve had maybe. Maybe someone’s walked into your clinic and said, are you the nurse? Or, you know, these classic stories [00:52:30] you hear about? Yeah. Young ladies. Right?

Niki Keyhani: I hope it is that. I hope it is that I’m too sensitive. [00:52:35]

Payman Langroudi: I think so, man, because you’ve brought it up a couple of times now. But. But I’m interested in this idea of you [00:52:40] like to prove people wrong when they assume. Assume something about. [00:52:45]

Niki Keyhani: You.

Payman Langroudi: Like, I can feel it.

Niki Keyhani: I mean, I don’t feel like that’s why I do it. I can feel it. But it gives a good [00:52:50] juice. I mean, it’s not the reason I work as hard as I work.

Payman Langroudi: But if [00:52:55] I said to you. Listen, man, I don’t think you’ll ever get three practices.

Niki Keyhani: Oh, yeah. No, there’s something [00:53:00] in me which is like, just.

Payman Langroudi: Watch me to that.

Niki Keyhani: Just sit down and watch me. You put it in my head now. Yeah, there’s [00:53:05] definitely that in me. There is definitely that in me. Not of I want to prove everyone wrong.

Payman Langroudi: It’s more a [00:53:10] question of under. You don’t want to be underestimated, man. Yeah. Do [00:53:15] you remember? Like why? Like what? Where’s this coming from? Like, was it. Was it like a woman where you were underestimated [00:53:20] and.

Niki Keyhani: Oh, I mean, I feel like there’s a lot of times I’ve been underestimated. There’s [00:53:25] a lot of times where it’s very easy. Like, as soon as you meet anyone, everyone’s like this. Whenever [00:53:30] we meet someone, we put them in the box, right? You are this kind of person. You are this kind of person. So [00:53:35] it’s very easy for someone to meet me and put me in a box of, [00:53:40] oh, she’s she’s the academic or. Oh, she’s, I don’t know, whatever they think, but I’m sure there’s a box that [00:53:45] they put me in. So. And I want to be able to define my box. No one can tell me [00:53:50] what my box is, and no one can tell me which. They often do. Oh, but are you a business owner or are you a clinician? [00:53:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I know, but look, I’ve got I’ve got one of my most important members [00:54:00] of staff here. She’s she’s got a very strong radar for people who think they’re posher [00:54:05] than me. Okay. Yeah, something like that. Yeah. So that her radar is very [00:54:10] tuned in to this thing. Yeah. Okay. That’s something. Yeah, [00:54:15] but you’re very tuned into this other thing about people dictating [00:54:20] who they think you are and what you should do next, and how you’re. So. Why that’s that’s my point. Why? [00:54:25] Why this?

Niki Keyhani: I think just because I’ve come across it.

Payman Langroudi: Really.

Niki Keyhani: I’ve come across it. Yeah. There’s it’s [00:54:30] pretty frequent where someone will go. Oh I thought you were this way or I thought you were this [00:54:35] or I remember even applying to uni and one of my [00:54:40] teachers was like, you’re not going to get in. There’s no way because crap.

Payman Langroudi: Teacher. [00:54:45]

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, really?

Payman Langroudi: That’s the difference between that teacher and the other one.

Niki Keyhani: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Be a specialist.

Niki Keyhani: Exactly. [00:54:50] He was like, you’re not going to be what he was like. You need to have something to get in and you just don’t have [00:54:55] it. And I was like, well, what’s what is it?

Payman Langroudi: And he was like.

Niki Keyhani: You don’t have.

[BOTH]: It.

Niki Keyhani: And [00:55:00] I was like.

Payman Langroudi: What a nutter. Yeah. Could have teachers that.

Niki Keyhani: That was the fire that straight away I [00:55:05] was like, I’m getting it. I’m not gonna I don’t know what it is. I will Google.

Payman Langroudi: It. Unless he was [00:55:10] playing, unless he was playing 3D chess. And he was like, this is what he’s going. This is.

Niki Keyhani: What he was.

Payman Langroudi: Doing. This is what it’s going [00:55:15] to take to get her to want to do it.

Niki Keyhani: That. But I think also when you say that it’s a win win situation for them, isn’t [00:55:20] it? Because then I’m either going to get in and he’s going to equate it to himself or I’m not going to get in and he’s going [00:55:25] to say, well, I was right. So he made his own job easy. Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: I used [00:55:30] to live with this guy who was a medic, and me and him didn’t used to study at all. Yeah, [00:55:35] the other two dentists, they used to study.

Niki Keyhani: You’ve told me.

Payman Langroudi: This, but me and him did not used [00:55:40] to study. And then I qualified. And then he said, yeah, I [00:55:45] want to be a surgeon. And I said, but. You [00:55:50] know, if I were you, I’d just stick to GP. Yeah. Because I don’t think you’re the, you know, that [00:55:55] that dude went on to become like one of the top surgeons in the country. There you go. And [00:56:00] he he actually tells me he attributes it to that moment when I said, buddy.

[BOTH]: See?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:56:05]

[BOTH]: Look what you created.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but I wasn’t playing 4D chess. I really didn’t think it was up to it because [00:56:10] I saw what a lazy dude he was over the three years I lived with him for you.

[BOTH]: You instilled.

Niki Keyhani: That [00:56:15] fire in.

Payman Langroudi: Him by mistake. By mistake?

[BOTH]: Yeah, but.

Niki Keyhani: These moments are mistakes, you know? They’re moments where someone [00:56:20] suddenly just says something to you. But it sticks. It sticks, and you just think, wait [00:56:25] a minute. I can do this. I’ve got it. And, um. Yeah, I mean, [00:56:30] my that’s I think again, what my 20s were. It’s that I was in this [00:56:35] kind of in between where I felt like loads of people thought I couldn’t do it. And then people who knew me were [00:56:40] batting so hard. They were so supportive, so loving. So like, yeah, [00:56:45] you can do it. I believe in you. I see it in you. And then my 20s were for me [00:56:50] of proving that to myself.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think it’s harder being a woman than a man.

Niki Keyhani: In [00:56:55] life or in dentistry? Life is a hard one to answer because [00:57:00] I think we have different difficulties. Yeah. Um, we have different challenges in dentistry. [00:57:05] There’s definitely, definitely some challenges that women go through. Yeah, definitely. [00:57:10]

Payman Langroudi: I would have thought it’d be the other way around. You know.

Niki Keyhani: Why?

Payman Langroudi: Because dentistry, [00:57:15] at the end of the day, you’re the dentist. You can, you know, you’re dentist. There’s no there’s no problem there. There’s no [00:57:20] there’s no like I can’t imagine someone saying, I don’t want this woman to do my teeth. I want a man [00:57:25] to do my I can’t.

Niki Keyhani: I can’t imagine it. But you’ve definitely heard it, right? No, you haven’t heard that? [00:57:30] No, I’ve heard that.

Payman Langroudi: Did someone say, I don’t want a woman to fly my plane, [00:57:35] or I don’t want a woman to, like, I just can’t see it. This is.

Niki Keyhani: So. This is. I love when people do [00:57:40] this because quite often we’ll say, hey, we’ve had these uncomfortable [00:57:45] moments as females in dentistry or women in dentistry. And the straight away answer is, [00:57:50] well, I’ve not seen that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. But you’re not going to see it unless you’re [00:57:55] living it, right? Unless you’re experiencing it. Unless you’re the recipient of that person saying, [00:58:00] which I’ve had many times.

Payman Langroudi: Many times.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, many times I’ve had, for example, I [00:58:05] remember in uni someone said to me, why is there more female students than male? And I went, well, [00:58:10] because whether we’re female or male doesn’t determine whether we get into university. It’s based on our, [00:58:15] I don’t know, grades or interview whatever else. And he went, well, I don’t really feel comfortable [00:58:20] with a woman treating me. And I went, well then don’t get treated by a woman [00:58:25] like.

Payman Langroudi: That can happen to men, too.

Niki Keyhani: It can happen to men. But [00:58:30] quite often when it’s happening to men, it’s not because they doubt your skills as a clinician, [00:58:35] it’s because maybe they don’t feel comfortable around men you [00:58:40] like, for example.

Payman Langroudi: How do you know it was your skill that he was doubting?

Niki Keyhani: Because he said it. He [00:58:45] said, I don’t think women can do the job as well.

Payman Langroudi: No way. [00:58:50]

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. And I said.

Payman Langroudi: Why do you 82.

Niki Keyhani: He will. I mean, I didn’t ask his age, but [00:58:55] maybe 60 or 70. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’m surprised that that in this [00:59:00] day and age I am surprised at that.

Niki Keyhani: To be honest, that was the biggest surprise I had. I mean, my mum was [00:59:05] my role model when I was doing both my essays were female. So I was very much [00:59:10] like, women can do everything. So this idea when.

Payman Langroudi: People say.

Niki Keyhani: Women can’t do everything, women [00:59:15] have to sacrifice.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think it’s easier?

Niki Keyhani: Never heard it before.

Payman Langroudi: It’s easier for women in some sense.

Niki Keyhani: In [00:59:20] what sense?

Payman Langroudi: Like I’d say, it’s easier for a woman to sell cosmetics than for a man.

Niki Keyhani: Oh. [00:59:25] Good question.

Payman Langroudi: For the sake of the argument.

Niki Keyhani: What facial aesthetics or.

Payman Langroudi: Dental [00:59:30] aesthetics? You know that that traditional role of what [00:59:35] about, uh, pretty privilege like that.

Niki Keyhani: That pretty privilege exists.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Niki Keyhani: I stand [00:59:40] by that. Yeah, but men have pretty privilege, too. No, no, no they do. There’s [00:59:45] good looking guys.

Payman Langroudi: I know, but it’s not as privileged as much, you know, like.

Niki Keyhani: You’re telling me there’s [00:59:50] not, like, those typical aesthetic doctors where, like, they’ve got the muscle and they put [00:59:55] that online and women are.

Payman Langroudi: Like, no, it exists.

Niki Keyhani: Female patients come for that reason.

Payman Langroudi: It exists. I [01:00:00] remember, I remember I used to I used to say to like these 50 year old lots of funny. I’m 52. I said, [01:00:05] these 50 year old women when I was your age, I used to solve adheres to these women. Yeah, I knew, I knew [01:00:10] what to say. Like it wasn’t even what.

Niki Keyhani: Tell me what you said. Tell me the spiel.

Payman Langroudi: It wasn’t what I was saying. It was just [01:00:15] like the way.

Niki Keyhani: The way you were saying it.

Payman Langroudi: I was finishing sentences and things, and. And it was working [01:00:20] in sales terms, and I was. I was a young kid. Didn’t know what the hell I was doing.

Niki Keyhani: See, now you’re telling everyone your secret. If you want to sell veneers, [01:00:25] you’ve got to not finish your sentences. That’s basically what you just said.

Payman Langroudi: It wasn’t. It wasn’t as. [01:00:30]

Niki Keyhani: You could have veneers or you could.

Payman Langroudi: I’d say I’d say I’d say something about how, you know, beautiful, beautiful face. [01:00:35] It’s really nice. Oh, okay. And I wouldn’t finish. Okay. When it came to the teeth. Yeah. Something [01:00:40] like that. Something like that.

Niki Keyhani: Nice face. Shame about the, [01:00:45] uh. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Wouldn’t finish.

Niki Keyhani: Okay. Like it?

Payman Langroudi: Maybe. Incorrect, but I was [01:00:50] doing a lot of cosmetic work at that point, and veneers were like. It was amazing. You could, you could, you could prep [01:00:55] for three hours and build, like, I don’t know what it was. I can’t remember. Yeah. Massive. Bigger number [01:01:00] than I’d ever seen before. And then the fit was like two hours. And it was it was just a wonderful thing. And [01:01:05] it was quick and it worked like it looked pretty and. And people loved the way they looked. Yeah. [01:01:10] People were happy, but it was before Invisalign existed.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There was no other choice. Yeah. Like, if you want to [01:01:15] look pretty, this is what you call it? Yeah. It’s actually one of the reasons I got bleaching when bleaching finally worked. [01:01:20] Because bleaching wasn’t really working very well. I remember in the early days that was way before your time. Like [01:01:25] in the 90s in bleaching. Yeah. No one understood about the tray.

Niki Keyhani: But I liked [01:01:30] this story. You told me this story last time I saw you. And you were telling me about why you’re going to whining? Yeah, I loved [01:01:35] that story. It was so much more to it than I thought it was about [01:01:40] how you kind of thought, we need to go to an area of dentistry that people don’t really do very much, and people [01:01:45] need to be able to do it differently. And you kind of honed in on just one thing.

Payman Langroudi: I think it was one patient. It was [01:01:50] one patient. I did a treatment that’s insane. It was just so the reaction from the patient [01:01:55] and the fact I hadn’t drilled it was just a magical moment. Yeah, yeah, it was a magical. [01:02:00] But like I say, it didn’t always used to work in those days. Yeah. So there was this one patient where it did work, and [01:02:05] it was just like it was such a magical moment. That’s why I did it. It got me going. [01:02:10]

Niki Keyhani: In inception due.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. So now you’re saying [01:02:15] going forward, we bumped into some errors? Yeah. Do [01:02:20] you want to do more surgical implants work.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is that is that the cat you want to be?

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. [01:02:25] I think well, it’s not the only thing I want to do, but it’s definitely a part of what I want to do. Um. [01:02:30] Yeah. Made mistakes. Yeah. Learn from them. Yeah, I need to learn some more. [01:02:35]

Payman Langroudi: Have you always been calm with flaps and blood or no surgery?

Niki Keyhani: Listen, [01:02:40] the only thing I knew after PhD is I don’t want to go into the hospital. Oh, I [01:02:45] was like, no way am I doing DCT. Like, I love, I loved practice, I loved [01:02:50] seeing patients totally different. It’s totally different. And even then when I was seeing like 30, 40 [01:02:55] patients loved it. Like, let’s keep going. It’s like this adrenaline rush where I was just loving [01:03:00] it. Um, so naturally, what I did is I went into the hospital and I did three days a week with the Clinton. [01:03:05] You know, the thing that I said I wasn’t going to do, I did. Um, but [01:03:10] definitely the right decision. Definitely something that I still want to learn more about. [01:03:15] I still want to do. And just because I made a couple of mistakes doesn’t mean I’m going to shy away.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but implants, [01:03:20] to me, it feels like it’s an all or nothing game. Like you really need to jump fully into it.

Niki Keyhani: It is. I think [01:03:25] that’s the difficulty is that, you know, when you’re learning about it, you get an intro, which is great. But [01:03:30] then there’s this whole titanic iceberg under [01:03:35] the surface of how much more you need to learn. Yeah. So it’s it’s a whole, you know, degree within [01:03:40] itself. Um, but just.

Payman Langroudi: You’re up for.

Niki Keyhani: It. I’m up for it.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:03:45] have you. You’ve done all on six. Whatever. All on four.

Niki Keyhani: In the hospital environment? [01:03:50] Yes. Yeah, in the hospital.

Payman Langroudi: So is that maybe that’s the next challenge.

Niki Keyhani: Like safe dentistry. You know, [01:03:55] when you’re in the hospital with.

Payman Langroudi: Like, this massive demand in Horsham [01:04:00] for that sort of thing, right?

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. So I restore, I restore comfortably. Um, but yeah, [01:04:05] my next, my next journey would be placing them myself, which I think is the point, [01:04:10] you know, when I’m restoring, I’m kind of that’s what’s making me go, why am I restoring? But I’m not placing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:04:15]

Niki Keyhani: Just doesn’t make much sense. So I’m like, it’s time to go into the next, next chapter.

Payman Langroudi: What would you say? [01:04:20] You’re bad at.

Niki Keyhani: Endo.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:04:25]

Niki Keyhani: Listen, if you if you.

Payman Langroudi: It perforated [01:04:30] once and never touched it again, like one of those.

Niki Keyhani: I did maybe Endo and DFT and then [01:04:35] never again.

Payman Langroudi: It’s on a on a on a processor.

Niki Keyhani: Make me do endo.

Payman Langroudi: They [01:04:40] don’t even go there at all.

Niki Keyhani: No, make me do endo. No, no.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:04:45] different. Different speciality.

Niki Keyhani: It’s a complete, different world. Like if someone was in pain.

Payman Langroudi: Endo. That’s [01:04:50] it.

Niki Keyhani: No.

Payman Langroudi: What else?

Niki Keyhani: No no no. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Children. Children? [01:04:55]

Niki Keyhani: Um, I like children. I don’t like treating children. Um. [01:05:00] Invisalign. Ortho. Oh, really? Yeah. Just never got into it. Not my niche. [01:05:05] And then this is the problem with dentistry, right? You know, when people say, I’ve been on holiday, I’m coming back. [01:05:10] I think I’ve forgot everything. Yeah, it’s like I’ve. I’ve forgotten everything. Not pros for the [01:05:15] last like seven years. I cannot do endo. I cannot do well. I mean, [01:05:20] I can do simple ortho, but I wouldn’t advise anyone to come to me for ortho Invisalign. I will always [01:05:25] give it to someone else.

Payman Langroudi: They find a process a bit unfair because every dentist [01:05:30] thinks they can do pros.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But you know what I mean. If you don’t, you’re going to get loads of referrals. [01:05:35] Yeah. Whereas with pros it’s almost like when things go wrong people come to you. [01:05:40]

Niki Keyhani: But that’s it. Those are the cases I get I get it.

Payman Langroudi: When you’re getting the hardest cases.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, absolutely. [01:05:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Niki Keyhani: Um, yeah, it is.

Payman Langroudi: But I think [01:05:50] the challenge of increasing your referral from 10% to, well, [01:05:55] whatever it is.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, this is this is part of the three stage plan. Number one, get on [01:06:00] to the GDC register. Number two, advertise myself as a specialist being able [01:06:05] to finally use that moniker. Um, so yeah, that’s kind of what’s [01:06:10] paused me up until now.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So now when we’re looking at this other side, right, the soft side, [01:06:15] the business side. Yeah. And you know what you said about, you know, it kind of keeps you up at night that [01:06:20] you’re responsible for these staff members and all of that. Do you look at business, [01:06:25] developing the business side in a similar way to you, look at developing the Dental side. Or do you [01:06:30] not, because a lot of dentists don’t. A lot of dentists think of, okay, I’ve got to do this, I’m going to do that, get a mentor [01:06:35] in dent in clinical. But on the business side, just muddle through. And I’ve done it [01:06:40] myself. I’ve done it myself. And and recently I got a kind of a mentor and I’m happy. I’m happy [01:06:45] I did. Yeah. Have you thought about learning?

Niki Keyhani: Thought about it? I have thought about it. Um, [01:06:50] I do always think about developing my business. That’s like a given every day. I’m like, what can I do [01:06:55] next? What is the next stage? Um. Or is it time to expand? Is it time to do this 100%? [01:07:00] Have I thought about getting a mentor? Honestly, I have, I’ve dabbled with [01:07:05] it. Um, one of the things actually, I went to recently, [01:07:10] you know, um, Rana, she does courses on, like, coaching and mentoring.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Niki Keyhani: And [01:07:15] I went on one of her courses like Day Course. I didn’t realise how much [01:07:20] I needed that course until I went on it. Um, because she was, it was even things that [01:07:25] I do. But she was explaining to me why I’m doing it and what the name of it is and why I should be [01:07:30] doing it that way or this way. Like what? So, I mean, I don’t want to give away her course for free here, but [01:07:35] one of the main things she talks about, which I loved, is the difference between high achievers [01:07:40] and optimal achievers. High achieving is when you are going a [01:07:45] 100mph but you are burning your candle, you’re going to get tired by [01:07:50] the end. Optimal achiever is when you’re going 100mph, but [01:07:55] the things that you’re doing are replenishing yourself is giving you energy to keep going. [01:08:00] So you will. If you’re working as an optimal achiever, you’re always going to be working at that high level. You’re [01:08:05] not going to dip. Loved it. I was like, that explains that four years of [01:08:10] running the practice because I was dying, but [01:08:15] enjoying my death, you know, I was like stressed [01:08:20] and exhausted by the time I got back, but so happy. So so, so [01:08:25] happy, so grateful. Um, and yeah, it [01:08:30] kind of put words, it put labels onto the things that I was doing and made me understand [01:08:35] what I was doing and how I was doing it so that I knew how to keep doing it. Um, [01:08:40] yeah. Those kind of things made me realise, hey, maybe, uh, [01:08:45] maybe I could do with a little bit of mentorship. Maybe I could do with a little bit of support or someone showing me a different [01:08:50] way of doing things. Um, so yeah, it’s been things I’ve been dabbling with.

Payman Langroudi: I think, you know, being [01:08:55] a lone founder, the owner of the business on your own is actually [01:09:00] asking a lot of one person, you know.

Niki Keyhani: Mom is guidance.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, right.

Niki Keyhani: Mom is guidance. Like, if there’s obviously [01:09:05] a problem, mom, like, she’s a phone call away. She’s a text away. What [01:09:10] should I do? What do you think? What is the right answer? And, um.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think do you think there’s sort [01:09:15] of the child of a dentist privilege? Yeah. There is a real thing.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, it is, it is, it is. [01:09:20] Yeah. Who who would ever say it’s not.

Payman Langroudi: Some people don’t. Some people think it’s not.

Niki Keyhani: We need to be real. [01:09:25] Absolutely it is. They give you insight. They give you support. They give more than anything. More than anything. [01:09:30] She’s given me understanding. She gets it, you know, in a different way. So [01:09:35] when I’m going through something like, for example, when a patient’s being a bit difficult straight away [01:09:40] mum, there’s this patient, this happened and sometimes I know [01:09:45] what I’m going to do, but I need to say it to someone who I trust wholeheartedly, who [01:09:50] understands what I’m saying.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know what I would do if I were you?

Niki Keyhani: Tell me. I love advice. Tell me. [01:09:55]

Payman Langroudi: Look, clinically, you seem very confident. Yeah, and I know, I know.

Niki Keyhani: I like that. That’s the impression I gave you. [01:10:00]

Payman Langroudi: Do you do? And I know it’s an unfinished symphony. It always is.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Basil Mizrahi [01:10:05] is learning every day.

Niki Keyhani: I’m sure the best courses I’ve been on.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah. Hundred percent. But [01:10:10] clinical. You do seem very accomplished and confident. Yeah. I think what you should do now [01:10:15] is you should, like, make an amazing, patient journey sort of thing. Amazing [01:10:20] one. Yeah. And then the your dad side. Yeah. With, [01:10:25] you know like with the design and and all that you should listen to. You should [01:10:30] listen to the podcast I did with the small story. Zach. Cara, have you heard of that one. Like the patient [01:10:35] journey is this unbelievable thing. But but their screens at every point. So so [01:10:40] by the time the patients in the chair they’re fully, fully confident about this patient. Yeah. [01:10:45] So what I’m saying is you’re such a high achiever that it makes sense to make something [01:10:50] like that. The next step. So if I fast forwarded, where do you think life will be. Forget dentistry. Do you think you’ll [01:10:55] be like married or kids in five years?

Niki Keyhani: Oh, I hope [01:11:00] so. I mean, it depends. If I meet the right person, I don’t want if I meet the right person, but I don’t want to put pressure [01:11:05] on myself on it either. Yeah, it’ll come when it comes.

Payman Langroudi: Because. Because the funny thing is, that’s only five summers [01:11:10] left, you know, like.

Niki Keyhani: Are you doing the very typical thing of Nikki that you’re running [01:11:15] out of time, like 25 summers?

Payman Langroudi: Like, if I was a girl, I’d be really worried about that. You know? It’s only five. Five. Yeah. [01:11:20]

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, yeah. Why? Because I feel like women are. The women don’t need to worry about that. [01:11:25] Like there’s options. It’s just about finding the one that you click with. Why would we worry about [01:11:30] it?

Payman Langroudi: No, no, no. Let’s say everything goes well. Yeah. Let’s say you meet a guy and you have a child. [01:11:35] Yeah. Within five years. Yeah. There’s only five summers left of you being you. Yeah. [01:11:40] And the child.

Niki Keyhani: This is one of.

Payman Langroudi: My child in the mix.

Niki Keyhani: Right.

Payman Langroudi: So there’s no I in, baby.

Niki Keyhani: There [01:11:45] is in babies. There is [01:11:50] in babies.

Payman Langroudi: Anyway, for a few years for sure. Yeah, yeah, for a few years I went I went to [01:11:55] Goa on.

Niki Keyhani: A.

Payman Langroudi: On a two week stag do. Nice. When my children were [01:12:00] three and one.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So my wife could have done that. No way, no way. Impossible. Impossible. [01:12:05] It doesn’t matter how many nannies or.

Niki Keyhani: Whatever, like sacrifices that you’re just happy to [01:12:10] give.

Payman Langroudi: I know, I know, I.

Niki Keyhani: Know, that’s not a sacrifice I worry about.

Payman Langroudi: I know, I know, but there is. You should. Because I’m saying there’s only five summers [01:12:15] left if everything goes perfectly. Yeah. So? So the reason I like to count it in some ways it [01:12:20] makes it more more tangible.

Niki Keyhani: It makes it more timely. I mean, yeah, but then I’ve [01:12:25] also.

Payman Langroudi: Had on you. Anyway, look.

Niki Keyhani: I’ve had 31 summers where I’ve had a great one.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me it doesn’t weigh on you [01:12:30] at all. That’s really super interesting in itself.

Niki Keyhani: I don’t think it weighs on me in terms of timeline, in [01:12:35] terms of.

Payman Langroudi: Me.

Niki Keyhani: Man. But the other thing, the other thing weighs on me more. Yeah. [01:12:40] Choosing the wrong person. Yeah, that weighs on me. Listen, I have seen, not experienced, [01:12:45] but seen some train wrecks, which makes me [01:12:50] like. Look, I’m happy to wait if it means not going through that scenario as long [01:12:55] as it’s right. At the end of the day, you need someone who you can trust and who you can build a family with. You’re not going to compromise [01:13:00] that. You’re not going to settle or settle.

Payman Langroudi: I sat my son down and I and I said, all right, he [01:13:05] was trying to get to Cambridge and this, that and the other, I don’t know, all of this stuff is all well and good, but [01:13:10] honestly, the most important decision you’re going to make is who?

Niki Keyhani: No one said that to me. [01:13:15]

Payman Langroudi: It’s so important.

Niki Keyhani: No one said that to me. My parents were like, yeah, you know, live your life, enjoy [01:13:20] yourself. You know, work hard. No one said, by the way, none [01:13:25] of this matters. The most important thing is who you meet. No one told me that up until now. And [01:13:30] then suddenly it’s like the.

Payman Langroudi: The.

Niki Keyhani: Script has changed.

Payman Langroudi: Doesn’t it?

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, I guess, I mean, I am [01:13:35] thankful that I don’t have pressure at home for sure, for sure, but it makes there’s still a lot to do in [01:13:40] the next five years. You know, there’s still plans. I know there’s still plans, even not personal [01:13:45] life wise. I mean, obviously the course finished, but I was like I felt [01:13:50] a feeling of I really focussed on my career. It’s time to focus on me. I started Spanish [01:13:55] lessons. I’ve started tennis. When I say I, there is no better highlight of my [01:14:00] week than my Spanish and my tennis lessons. I’m enjoying it so much because I’m just having [01:14:05] time to do the things that I’ve loved and not had time to do, or things like property [01:14:10] investment or, you know, other areas of your life to kind of pad it out. [01:14:15] Yeah, there’s definitely Dental dreams. There’s things that I’m planning to do, but it [01:14:20] shouldn’t just be one, one category or one department.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get [01:14:25] into the sort of quickfire part of this.

Niki Keyhani: I feel like so far it’s been quick. This wasn’t [01:14:30] quickfire. You know, when they tell you to come on this podcast, they’re like, yeah, it’s a really [01:14:35] chilled conversation. What do you mean, chilled conversation? It’s like, do you feel like your time is [01:14:40] running out? Do you feel like where was the chilled part in this conversation? [01:14:45]

Payman Langroudi: I’m just like, I would feel like my time is running out if I was [01:14:50] a girl.

Niki Keyhani: Okay, let me let me summarise. I don’t feel like my time’s running out. I love being a woman. Yes, there are [01:14:55] challenges, but it’s a pleasure to be a woman and to face the things we’re [01:15:00] facing. And I would say one thing I haven’t said is I have a niece. [01:15:05] Everything I do would be for her. Everything I would do, any [01:15:10] difficulty I face before it was frustrating. Now I’m grateful because if it [01:15:15] changes one person’s perception of what a woman should be or what a woman can do if it changes [01:15:20] her life, even the slightest amount, give it to me. Don’t give it to her.

Payman Langroudi: Love, though.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Love [01:15:25] though. Beautiful. So quick. Fire.

Niki Keyhani: Tell me.

Payman Langroudi: Favourite [01:15:30] lecture you’ve ever been to?

Niki Keyhani: Like what I’m going to say. The one that I’m sure everyone [01:15:35] else is like. Oh my God, Finlay Sutton really loved it.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Niki Keyhani: Dentures were [01:15:40] made interesting and sexy. Who knew? Yeah. Loved it. Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Favourite book? [01:15:45]

Niki Keyhani: Dental book. Yeah. Okay, so this book is not a book [01:15:50] that anyone can buy. Let me add that I obviously did the diploma. I did the London [01:15:55] and I was like, wow, there is no prosthodontic book which has everything, prosthodontics in it. And I mean like [01:16:00] fixed removable aesthetics occlusion. So I made one. I like wrote [01:16:05] my own notes. It’s probably about a thousand pages at this point. And I’ve always told myself, [01:16:10] yeah, one day I’ll, you know, sell it or give it out for free, I I don’t care. But that [01:16:15] is probably my resource. Anytime I’ve forgotten something, quickly open up my Dental [01:16:20] book of my own. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re crazy, note taker. [01:16:25]

Niki Keyhani: I like it like textbook style. Like there needs to be every detail [01:16:30] for sure. Yeah. Type A.

Payman Langroudi: So you should put that book out. Why not?

Niki Keyhani: I should put that. [01:16:35] I’ll add on to the list of.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Niki Keyhani: It’s on the list of things I [01:16:40] need to do.

Payman Langroudi: Favourite book? Book like ordinary book or. Like [01:16:45] maybe one that sort of changed your. Oh, I don’t know. Just what comes to mind.

Niki Keyhani: Symbiotic planet. [01:16:50] Selfish gene.

Payman Langroudi: Selfish gene, selfish gene.

Niki Keyhani: Love completely changed my [01:16:55] viewpoint. Um, and I recently [01:17:00] actually read by Marjan Kamali. Um, the book. Oh, [01:17:05] what’s it called? Bookstore in Tehran. Yeah. Really [01:17:10] sweet. Really short as well. Simple read, but invokes the feelings and then [01:17:15] pack it away.

Payman Langroudi: Best course you’ve been on.

Niki Keyhani: I’m [01:17:20] Clinton, PJ David and then, um, Basel [01:17:25] Basel for a one day. Listen, I spent a [01:17:30] whole day making one temporary. Yeah, not making temporaries making [01:17:35] one temporary. And then we refined it. And then we came back from lunch and we refined it some more. And then we made it again. [01:17:40] But amazing. Incredible. The level of detail, the the [01:17:45] teaching style. Incredible.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I think he’s got a real skill [01:17:50] in like tailoring the conversation to the particular person as well.

Niki Keyhani: Absolutely. It’s the combination [01:17:55] of the knowledge, but also the the way that he expresses that knowledge, the [01:18:00] way he makes you understand and see what he’s seeing. That’s talent.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. They say like [01:18:05] that it often like from complexity comes simplicity. Like if you if you if you [01:18:10] really fully understand something, you can explain it simply. Yeah. You know, [01:18:15] and I feel like with him, it’s like that. Yeah. Um, what about if [01:18:20] there was no time or money constraints at all? What? What course would you jump into tomorrow? [01:18:25]

Niki Keyhani: I don’t think I have, like, a course. I have, like, um, [01:18:30] people I admire that I would love to see them speak or I would love to see their work. Uh, [01:18:35] Sanada. Doctor Sanada, obviously. And I at the moment, I’m not [01:18:40] hugely I’m not doing a lot of composites, but if you do, this is the number one thing people ask me. Oh, I do a [01:18:45] composites. What do you think, Felipe Villaverde? Beautiful, [01:18:50] beautiful work. Like, I just, I’m that weird person who’s like, scrolling on his Instagram [01:18:55] page every now and then and just in awe of the fact that this is composite, like incredible, [01:19:00] beautiful work.

Payman Langroudi: You wouldn’t jump on like a coyote or a spear continuum or something like [01:19:05] that. You feel like.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, this point in the game. Come [01:19:10] on, I did occlusion. I’ve done it.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve had enough.

Niki Keyhani: I’ve had enough of the occlusion, I get it. It’s great, you [01:19:15] know.

Payman Langroudi: And you do just composite bonding.

Niki Keyhani: I do do composite bonding. Yeah, because patients want [01:19:20] it, right? Um, so, yeah, it’s in the arsenal. If they need it, I’ll pop it out. [01:19:25] So where.

Payman Langroudi: Did you learn that.

Niki Keyhani: Composite bonding practice initially. Like I didn’t [01:19:30] go on any course initially for it.

Payman Langroudi: They didn’t teach it on the course.

Niki Keyhani: They do, [01:19:35] but they teach it in terms of pathology. So tooth wear cases, how to stabilise [01:19:40] with composite. And then you know also this is the thing you’ve got to remember. King’s Eastman, everyone has their [01:19:45] own styles I would say massively so. King’s is very much um, they [01:19:50] let me do which I’m thankful for a lot of ceramic, a lot of digital, which [01:19:55] was amazing because that’s where pros is. That’s where it’s going [01:20:00] at a mile, you know, so fast. At this rate, if you’re not going into digital, if you’re not going to truly [01:20:05] understanding your ceramics, where to use it, where your materials then? It’s it’s [01:20:10] going to limit you.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a digital in the undergrad course now or. No. I think so by now. There must.

Niki Keyhani: Be. [01:20:15] There is I mean they’ve got scanners, they’ve got the printers, they’ve got everything.

Payman Langroudi: Um, do you feel [01:20:20] differently? Was it the same teachers who taught you undergrad and some of them teaching?

Niki Keyhani: Some were.

Payman Langroudi: Some. Is there [01:20:25] a massive difference in the way they approach you? That or no.

Niki Keyhani: Oh yeah. Yeah. So definitely. [01:20:30] So now, for example, my the person who taught me pros initially I [01:20:35] was with him to examine the new undergrads.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Niki Keyhani: Which [01:20:40] was amazing. Uh, Doctor Saxena nice. So [01:20:45] really nice to kind of sit beside him and he has to mark it and I give the [01:20:50] final mark. So trippy. So weird to be [01:20:55] next to this person that you taught me how to cram prep. And now I’m telling you whether it should be like a 15 [01:21:00] or 16 pointer. Um, but yeah, it’s it’s nice, [01:21:05] you know, it’s you’re changing. Changing the relationship from mentorship guidance to [01:21:10] equal.

Payman Langroudi: It’s amazing. I’ve had I’ve really learned a lot from you. I really have. [01:21:15] Your attitude is brilliant. It really is. We’re going to finish with our usual [01:21:20] questions.

Niki Keyhani: Oh, yeah. Go on.

Payman Langroudi: Fantasy dinner party. Three guests. Who did you come up with?

Niki Keyhani: This is the hardest [01:21:25] question. Okay, every single listen, you’re going to have 20 listeners [01:21:30] right now listening to my answer, trying to work out which one of their answers.

Payman Langroudi: You’re [01:21:35] putting too much pressure on yourself.

Niki Keyhani: Yes, I am, because you only gave me three. You only gave me three. [01:21:40] Okay. Um, so I [01:21:45] have to say this one because I think he’s hilarious. Um, like Robin Williams. [01:21:50]

Payman Langroudi: Oh. The best. Love him. Love him.

Niki Keyhani: Hilarious. Um. Great [01:21:55] comedian. Um, I’m going to say more than three. I [01:22:00] I’m rejecting your parameters. Fair enough. Um, And Alan [01:22:05] from hangover. Alan from hangover. Come [01:22:10] on.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know.

Niki Keyhani: The hangover, the movie.

Payman Langroudi: Doesn’t it? Sorry. Jesus. [01:22:15] What?

Niki Keyhani: No wonder you’ve not seen Between Two Ferns. [01:22:20]

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know.

Niki Keyhani: I feel like you. You need to. You need to watch a couple of things tonight.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not into.

Niki Keyhani: Movies. [01:22:25] Okay.

Payman Langroudi: So that one, Alan from the character, is he?

Niki Keyhani: Oh, he’s a character. He’s [01:22:30] a he’s a character?

Payman Langroudi: No, but is he a character? He’s an actor. He’s the character.

Niki Keyhani: He’s the character.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, you [01:22:35] want that character?

Niki Keyhani: I want that character. Cool, cool. Um, just because I think he would be [01:22:40] wild and you need someone like that at a dinner party.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Niki Keyhani: Um. And then I need to have. [01:22:45] I need to have, like, maybe even marriage and karmali like [01:22:50] a female Iranian to represent us. Um, [01:22:55] I would love a David Attenborough. I would love, like, a Judi Dench or something. [01:23:00] Oh, sir Ian McKellen. I’m a massive Lord of the rings fan. Um. [01:23:05]

Payman Langroudi: So. Six. I’m gonna stop you there.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, six. Oh, and then my niece, because she’s [01:23:10] only two. She doesn’t count.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. That’s right.

Niki Keyhani: She just has to be in the corner.

Payman Langroudi: She could she.

Niki Keyhani: Can come in the corner. So. [01:23:15]

Payman Langroudi: So, yeah. That was.

Niki Keyhani: I can give you more. Do you want to cut me here?

Payman Langroudi: Go on. Go go [01:23:20] go. I just feel like you’re going to set a precedence now. But go on, go on, go on. Give [01:23:25] me one more.

Niki Keyhani: Um. Give you one. Oh, only one more. The mathematician.

Payman Langroudi: Lady. [01:23:30] Oh, the Iranian one.

Niki Keyhani: What’s her.

Payman Langroudi: Name? Yeah, I can’t remember.

Niki Keyhani: Like, she would be smart. Yeah, she would [01:23:35] teach me something.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, she was cool. Yeah, cool as well.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. I’d give her some mad equations and she would [01:23:40] come out with some crazy answers.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, although it wasn’t Nobel Prize was something else. It was it. What was it? It was a maths prize. It was [01:23:45] different.

Niki Keyhani: It was maths. Whatever it was. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Amazing answer. So [01:23:50] final. Final questions. Deathbed. I know it’s weird at 2031. [01:23:55] I know it’s weird, but on your deathbed.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Three [01:24:00] pieces of advice for your loved ones And you know, you can answer this question in two different ways, right? One is [01:24:05] I was very determined. So you should be determined. That’s one answer. [01:24:10] Another one is I wish I was more.

Niki Keyhani: I don’t like either of those risk taking. [01:24:15]

Payman Langroudi: You should take more risks. You know, like.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Those or whatever. Answer however you [01:24:20] like.

Niki Keyhani: But to be able to do whatever it is they want to do. Forget me. Do what you [01:24:25] want. Do what makes you happy.

Payman Langroudi: But. Advice.

Niki Keyhani: Um, my advice would be my first advice would be, you [01:24:30] know how people say, oh, I’ve had a yes day, or I’ve had a yes month? Yeah. Make your life a yes [01:24:35] day. Every, every day is a yes day. Like there’s nothing that you should say no to. Um. [01:24:40] Experience it. See where it leads you see what you do.

Payman Langroudi: It’s beautiful advice. [01:24:45] Have you, have you come across that sort of advice which is about saying no more?

Niki Keyhani: No. [01:24:50]

Payman Langroudi: What’s that like as people get busy and older? Yeah. Yeah. A lot, a lot [01:24:55] of people come to you with ideas and opportunities. Yeah. Yeah. [01:25:00] And the ones you say no to are really important, right? Because you [01:25:05] waste a lot of time by saying yes to things.

Niki Keyhani: Sometimes that’s fine. It’s okay to say no to things [01:25:10] that aren’t going to serve you. But hear them out. Because I’ve also heard that when I was a younger dentist and [01:25:15] I would go to, you know, people that I could admire or people I wanted to ask a question of, and I could [01:25:20] just see they’d cut me before I’d even started. They weren’t interested in hearing my thoughts, my my [01:25:25] ideas even. And now that I look back, I’m like, you missed out on a trick because maybe I [01:25:30] didn’t have something else to say. But there’s ten other people behind me. They one of them probably has a good idea.

Payman Langroudi: Super [01:25:35] interested in.

Niki Keyhani: That. Yeah, 100%. One of them definitely has a good idea. So hear everyone out. You don’t have [01:25:40] to say yes, but you need to put yourself in those opportunities where you can say yes, [01:25:45] that’s what a yes day is for me. Yeah. Just go everywhere, experience [01:25:50] everything, get out of your comfort zone.

Payman Langroudi: That’s super important advice. Second piece of advice. [01:25:55]

Niki Keyhani: Second piece of advice is don’t take [01:26:00] everything seriously. I think at the end of the day, if you’ve put a smile [01:26:05] on one person’s face and you’ve made one positive impact you’ve achieved, [01:26:10] it doesn’t always have to be. And this is probably advice for myself, [01:26:15] but it doesn’t always have to be the tick box or the goal or the [01:26:20] thing. Just live, enjoy [01:26:25] and take it as it comes.

Payman Langroudi: I often think about impact in sort [01:26:30] of breadth and depth kind of terms, and there’s many ways you can think of it. You [01:26:35] can think of it in numbers of people you’ve impacted.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But the, [01:26:40] the, the depth one interests me much more than the breadth one. And I [01:26:45] remember when I was, when I was a young dentist like you and I was saying to my boss, my [01:26:50] mentor guy yesterday, I was saying, I can’t believe it’s [01:26:55] just these four walls and this town. And he said something. At the time I thought he [01:27:00] was talking crap, but he said, look, you could impact one patient deeply is [01:27:05] as important as impacting the whole population. And at the [01:27:10] time, I didn’t get it, but now I do. Now a lot of a lot of what we do in the company is around that, [01:27:15] you know, even this this conversation. Right? 100%.

Niki Keyhani: Look, we’ve all seen thousands [01:27:20] of patients at this point, right? There’s going to be 1 or 2 that stick out in your mind for a certain reason. [01:27:25] For me, it was this. So my dad had a heart attack [01:27:30] around seven years ago. And it was it was a bad one. [01:27:35] There was there was a few details involved and, um, I was obviously off work for a little while. And [01:27:40] when I came back, they’d one of my patients had left a gift for me [01:27:45] and said, you know, I’ve had a heart attack myself. I know what it involves. [01:27:50] I know what it entails. I’m so sorry to hear and written the most beautiful letter [01:27:55] that to this day I’ve kept and to this day I think about often. And [01:28:00] that’s it was a patient who was lovely, but I [01:28:05] wouldn’t have thought of, you know. But the way he thought about me, the way he then impacted my life [01:28:10] with that letter I’ll never forget. Never forget. So, yeah, it’s not about [01:28:15] how many impact. It’s about the depth that you’ve impacted someone and the energy [01:28:20] that you give them then moving forward.

Payman Langroudi: Third piece of advice.

Niki Keyhani: Third piece [01:28:25] of advice. It’s [01:28:30] not enough to just be kind. You need to be truly kind, [01:28:35] truly kind in your heart. Kind. Go on. Sometimes kindness [01:28:40] is when people, they just do something, you know, it’s a kind thing, but it’s not always [01:28:45] with the purest intentions. True kindness, I think, is when from your heart, you genuinely [01:28:50] don’t wish anyone ill and you genuinely want the best for everyone around [01:28:55] you and you. Other people’s success just brings you happiness. True [01:29:00] kindness is what you need to achieve. Hello approved [01:29:05] the three year the three advices approved.

Payman Langroudi: I haven’t had that one before. [01:29:10]

Niki Keyhani: I didn’t think you would approve any of them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I like that one a lot.

Niki Keyhani: I think as I see it all [01:29:15] the time.

Payman Langroudi: You know, there’s also mental disease in um, people pleasing.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. Yeah. [01:29:20]

Payman Langroudi: And that’s almost.

Niki Keyhani: Touched on a big topic.

Payman Langroudi: That’s done. [01:29:25] That’s done without any agenda with the agenda is like, you only get peace yourself when [01:29:30] you’re giving.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I can think of a few people in my life like that, the [01:29:35] wonderful people, but they look after themselves at all.

Niki Keyhani: Yeah. I mean, there’s, you know, [01:29:40] don’t people please don’t go above and beyond, but work on being truly kind [01:29:45] to someone or just being truly kind.

Payman Langroudi: It’s lovely. Lovely what you’re.

Niki Keyhani: Saying. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Really [01:29:50] enjoyed it.

Niki Keyhani: Me too. For having me.

Payman Langroudi: I feel like I should be more like you.

Niki Keyhani: I [01:29:55] feel like I should be more like you. Really? Yeah. You’ve had some great stories. Amazing. [01:30:00] Yeah. I feel like my my stories were chill in comparison.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, no.

Niki Keyhani: You [01:30:05] can make something out of that.

Payman Langroudi: I love your attitude. I really love your attitude.

Niki Keyhani: Thank you.

[VOICE]: This [01:30:10] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get [01:30:15] to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:30:20] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [01:30:25]

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole [01:30:30] thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening [01:30:35] to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out [01:30:40] of it.

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