[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get to go [00:00:10] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:15] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:00:20]

Payman Langroudi: This podcast comes to you from Enlighten Enlightens, an advanced [00:00:25] teeth whitening system that guarantees results on every single patient. We’ve treated hundreds [00:00:30] of thousands of patients now and have a really clear understanding of what it takes to get every [00:00:35] patient to that delighted state that we want to get to. If you want to understand teeth whitening [00:00:40] in much further detail, join us for online training only takes an hour completely free. [00:00:45] Even if you never use enlighten as a whitening system, you’ll learn loads and loads about whitening, [00:00:50] how to talk about it, how to involve your teams. Join us enlighten online training comm. [00:00:55] It gives me great pleasure to welcome Doctor Pavan Minhaj onto the pod. It’s [00:01:00] been a while that I’ve been asking you to come. Um, Payman is now a [00:01:05] specialist periodontist. Um, also involved in implants and kind of [00:01:10] a big way. Um, just finished your training.

Payvand Menhadji: Just finished September, so we’re [00:01:15] in end of October now. I’m a baby specialist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And you’ve got a baby coming [00:01:20] as well?

Payvand Menhadji: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: How many weeks?

Payvand Menhadji: So 30 weeks. I’m 30 weeks. Ten weeks.

Payman Langroudi: Time. [00:01:25]

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: A lot going on for you, huh?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Lot going on. I think back [00:01:30] to years in my life where it was like that. We, I think we started the company, [00:01:35] moved house and got married in the same year.

Payvand Menhadji: Amazing. [00:01:40]

Payman Langroudi: And then other times when kids came along and it’s funny, you don’t really realise what you’re [00:01:45] achieving until many years later when you look back on it and you think, bloody [00:01:50] hell, I did all of that at the same time.

Payvand Menhadji: That was a tough year. Exactly. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:01:55] because you’re so busy you can’t even, you know, see the wood for the trees?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. You have no time to [00:02:00] reflect. Really? I’ve definitely felt that this year.

Payman Langroudi: How are you feeling about becoming a mother?

Payvand Menhadji: Excited, [00:02:05] to be honest. So I’m 34. Um, I [00:02:10] always wanted to have children, but I was. I’ve always been studying, you know, putting [00:02:15] kind of dentistry first. And I said to my husband, you know, when’s [00:02:20] the right time? And we said, okay, I’m coming to [00:02:25] the end of my training, but I didn’t think it would happen so soon. So so it happened [00:02:30] really fast. And then throughout my whole finals from April. [00:02:35] Sorry. From. Yeah. From April, May till now I’ve just been pregnant [00:02:40] sitting exams. So it’s been really tough.

Payman Langroudi: But but the I [00:02:45] don’t know the feeling of trepidation that it must be to be a mother in [00:02:50] waiting. I remember being a father about this time. I remember thinking, shit, man, like, what [00:02:55] is going to happen next? Yeah. You’re right. No one teaches you, right?

Payvand Menhadji: I am.

Payman Langroudi: Scared. For mother, it’s even [00:03:00] more.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, do you reflect on the fact that you’ve, like. Now, going forward, [00:03:05] you’ve lost all autonomy. You’ve [00:03:10] got ten weeks left, man. Like that’s it. After that.

Payvand Menhadji: You know, when you say it like [00:03:15] that, I’m fucked. Excuse me, I shouldn’t swear. Um, yeah. I [00:03:20] haven’t really sat down to think about it. I think I’ve been so busy. Yeah, but I’m slowing [00:03:25] down work next month, and I think that’s when it will really hit me that, okay, I’m going to become [00:03:30] a mother. I think feeling I’m having a baby girl. Okay. Yeah. [00:03:35] Amazing. So feeling her kick me and stuff. Um, especially during work, makes [00:03:40] it feel very real. Yeah. Um, but no, I’m really excited. I think it [00:03:45] will be a hard juggling act. I don’t know how I’ll cope.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll just think you’re going to be back [00:03:50] full time or part time or what?

Payvand Menhadji: The plan is to work four days a week. Um. [00:03:55] She says, you know, let’s see how it goes. Right. But the plan is to work four days a week for [00:04:00] six months. Um, get my mum to help out my husband. Um, see how how [00:04:05] we get on. Really?

Payman Langroudi: I mean, in many ways, I’m trying to persuade my daughter, my 15 year old, to [00:04:10] look at dentistry now. And in many ways, I think it really suits a mother. [00:04:15] Right. I think so. And, I don’t know, four days seems like a lot.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. [00:04:20] I just I still want to be really good at my craft. I feel like I’ve got to a stage where [00:04:25] now’s the time for me to actually put in the work. You know, I’ve just finished [00:04:30] my training. I’m building a name for myself, and so I don’t want to lose that skill. [00:04:35] That’s my only. That’s.

Payman Langroudi: You reckon if you did three days a week, you’d lose that skill? I mean.

Payvand Menhadji: No, you’re right. [00:04:40] I’ve just got some good jobs at the moment. I don’t want to give them up. That’s the truth. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Did you get [00:04:45] those jobs after you qualified or during or.

Payvand Menhadji: Um, two of them. [00:04:50] I’ve. I’ve kept on since, like, first year of perio training [00:04:55] and then two of them I’ve got like later on in perio training through recommendation [00:05:00] and people just realising that I’m okay at what I do. So [00:05:05] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Can you tell me the story of wanting to become a specialist and [00:05:10] when you track it back? Yeah. How how how long ago did you realise [00:05:15] you want to become a specialist? Yeah.

Payvand Menhadji: So I think dental school. I didn’t ever [00:05:20] think I’d be a specialist. I just wanted to be a dentist. Yeah. You know, it seemed like a [00:05:25] good work life balance. Um, and then it was my PhD year, actually, where I had two [00:05:30] trainers. One of them was placing loads of implants. Victor Keyhani.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Payvand Menhadji: He [00:05:35] does the ace courses. I know, nice. Um. And Sabina, um, [00:05:40] she’s the partner at the practice, so I had two really good trainers. [00:05:45] And Victor actually lived down my road in Stanmore. So we became very close family, friends. [00:05:50] And he said to me, hey, pay like. To be honest with you, if I redid my whole career, [00:05:55] I’d be a periodontist. And I really respected him. So I thought, okay, [00:06:00] let me let me look into this. Um, so I [00:06:05] shadowed actually at the time when I was like an PhD, um, I [00:06:10] went on a few courses, just, you know, cheap ones, the long deck ones and stuff. Learned [00:06:15] to raise a flap, that kind of thing. Um, and I realised I really [00:06:20] like surgery. So what did I do next? I thought, okay, I need a [00:06:25] hospital year, um, to get really good at extractions and things like that. Still wasn’t sure I’d be [00:06:30] a periodontist, but I knew I wanted to have, like, surgical skill.

Payman Langroudi: Did you? I mean, before you [00:06:35] realised you really like surgery, were you, like the rest of us, a bit worried about surgery?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, exactly. [00:06:40]

Payman Langroudi: So what was the. What was the inflection? Was it just like watching loads of surgeries?

Payvand Menhadji: Cool. Yeah, just watching [00:06:45] Victor place implants. I thought it was really nice, like life changing stuff. Um, he [00:06:50] was. He was really happy performing the implants and the patients were really happy [00:06:55] receiving it. And it just seemed like level expert, you know, which I quite liked. [00:07:00] It’s quite nice to be referred to things that are complicated. I think I like the challenge. Yeah. [00:07:05]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, have you always been a high achiever?

Payvand Menhadji: I’m a big nerd. Yeah, I guess [00:07:10] so.

Payman Langroudi: Because I noticed on your on your. I think it was Instagram. It’s just with honours with honours with honours [00:07:15] all over it. Like.

Payvand Menhadji: You make me sound like such a geek. I [00:07:20] do have a very active social life. But no, I am a nerd. [00:07:25] Yeah, I’m competitive, I guess. Are you. Are you? Yeah. Against. [00:07:30] Against myself. Like, if I set a goal, like I want to do the best. Really? [00:07:35] So I think specialist suits me.

Payman Langroudi: How long ago does that track German [00:07:40] were you compared to seven year old?

Payvand Menhadji: My Iranian mother.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine. [00:07:45]

Payvand Menhadji: Um, yeah. I mean, in sports and things. I [00:07:50] wasn’t too gifted, unfortunately. Um, but yeah, I was always pretty. Pretty high [00:07:55] achieving. And at school. Um. Yeah, I guess it’s always [00:08:00] been around. Yeah. Touchwood. I haven’t failed anything. I nearly failed my driving licence, [00:08:05] but I just passed, so. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So there might be a first time where you feel [00:08:10] like a failure when something goes not your way.

Payvand Menhadji: I’m sure it will happen. I’m [00:08:15] waiting for my downfall.

Payman Langroudi: There’s basically. There’s no way out of life, is there? There’s no way, no [00:08:20] easy way out of life. Even if you’ve had a, let’s call it a blessed life. Yeah, like you have, let’s say, [00:08:25] for the sake of the argument, eventually something will come and get you. It’s a it’s a weird [00:08:30] thing.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, my brother was always top of his class, top of everything. And then it was like, [00:08:35] I don’t know, it was like some sort of Mississippi part two. He’s a doctor that [00:08:40] finally just got him, got to him. He’d never felt anything in his life, suddenly started failing [00:08:45] and he couldn’t believe it himself.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. You know, when you’re. I mean, during [00:08:50] finals, pregnant. I’ll be honest with you, I didn’t study to that usual level that I could. [00:08:55] You know, I was in my first trimester, I was sick, I was exhausted, [00:09:00] I was nauseous, my husband would come home and be like, have you been in bed all day? You know, he could tell. I’d [00:09:05] been like, yeah, just like watching TV. Yeah. And, um, I wasn’t [00:09:10] behaving like myself, so I was scared. I didn’t think I’d fail, but I thought I’d just [00:09:15] scrape a pass. So, um, that’s the most scared I’ve been this.

Payman Langroudi: Year. [00:09:20]

Payvand Menhadji: Anyway. Yeah. It’s great. I, I scraped it. It was a [00:09:25] shock, to be honest. So.

Payman Langroudi: So then the training itself is a, what, three [00:09:30] year program?

Payvand Menhadji: Four years. Part time.

Payman Langroudi: Part time or three years full time? Exactly.

Payvand Menhadji: So the beauty [00:09:35] of kings is you can do it part time and still earn money on the side, essentially to pay for the [00:09:40] course and your mortgage.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know Eleanor? She’s doing.

Payvand Menhadji: Yes, yes. So I work with her.

Payman Langroudi: S1 [00:09:45] Okay.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah yeah.

[BOTH]: Yeah okay. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: So so for years part time. So [00:09:50] how many what was the actual commitment like how often did you have to be in how much homework.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah it’s [00:09:55] it’s a three day. You’ve got a three days. You’ve got to be in two days. You can work in practice. But [00:10:00] honestly it feels like a império. It feels like a full time course.

Payman Langroudi: Like [00:10:05] they give you lots of homework.

Payvand Menhadji: Lots of homework. You’re expected to, you know, show up all [00:10:10] the time, just like the full time is, even on random days.

Payman Langroudi: When you’re not.

Payvand Menhadji: Scheduled to. Yeah, exactly. [00:10:15] They might have something on if you don’t go. You’ve missed out that kind of thing.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Um, [00:10:20] it’s it’s heavy.

Payman Langroudi: In those three days. How much of it is actual clinics [00:10:25] and how much is not.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Um, I would say, I mean, sometimes you can [00:10:30] have three days full clinics. Um, other times it’s two days full clinics. And maybe, like, [00:10:35] there’s always so much to do. Like, I’m thinking back now, we’re always at the hospital doing stuff. [00:10:40] A lot of it’s admin. Yeah. Nhs admin is like, [00:10:45] terrible. Oh my gosh. Um, yeah. A lot of administrative [00:10:50] tasks. Research. You know, part of the dent is you do a [00:10:55] thesis, but because everyone’s so high achieving and I mean that, you [00:11:00] know, some of my friends in my course in my year were pulling out five systematic reviews [00:11:05] a year, which is crazy. I did 1 in 4 years. One [00:11:10] of my friends, Michiko. Yeah, she did, I think 4 or 5 in one year. It’s crazy. So they [00:11:15] work very hard.

Payman Langroudi: And what’s the cost?

Payvand Menhadji: The cost. So it goes up every year. [00:11:20] So when I started in 2019, um, [00:11:25] annually it was 18 K and then it goes up. And so by [00:11:30] the end it was about 21 k. So every year it would go up £1,000 or so. [00:11:35]

Payman Langroudi: And literally you were paying for it by being a dentist the other two days was that is how it works.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Paying [00:11:40] for it by being a dentist. But also it’s people don’t realise it’s a loss of earnings, right. [00:11:45] You know, I think my training costs me like.

Payman Langroudi: If you’re taking loss of earnings into [00:11:50] account, hundreds of thousands.

Payvand Menhadji: Absolutely. And a lot of the time I was thinking, [00:11:55] God, I should have just stayed working as a private GDP. I’d be much happier.

Payman Langroudi: And is [00:12:00] that what you were, a full time private GDP?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. So I did general dentistry up until my third year. [00:12:05] I was still doing veneers and crowns. Admittedly not as well as some other people, [00:12:10] obviously. Skilling. I could see myself getting worse. Um, but then I just went [00:12:15] and focussed my practice to periodontics, basically.

Payman Langroudi: Then [00:12:20] you said you studied dentistry in Liverpool? Yeah. What do you think of Liverpool?

Payvand Menhadji: It [00:12:25] was really fun. It was. You know what? It’s it’s great [00:12:30] for a weekend. Five years was a long time for me. Why? Too small? Yeah. [00:12:35] Too small. It was like the same streets, you know. Without being sounding [00:12:40] like someone from the South. You know, we just have so much [00:12:45] more to do in London. So I got a bit bored up there. Um, but made really [00:12:50] good friends. Found my husband, basically brought him back down.

Payman Langroudi: Not a dentist. [00:12:55]

Payvand Menhadji: He’s a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, he’s a dentist.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, yeah, he likes endo nutter. I know.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:13:00] Liverpool, I love it. I love that town. I love that town.

Payvand Menhadji: It’s really fun.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s quite close to [00:13:05] Manchester. Right. You’ve got that.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. So we used to do like weekend trips to Manchester and every time we [00:13:10] went it was raining so bad.

Payman Langroudi: I love the people there though.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, [00:13:15] people were good. Patients were lovely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Actually, you’re the second Liverpool graduate I’ve had today. [00:13:20] Oh, the guy before you was Liverpool graduate. Really nice. Before that you did biomedical. [00:13:25] Did you say.

Payvand Menhadji: Biochemistry?

Payman Langroudi: Biochemistry.

Payvand Menhadji: A similar thing, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What’s [00:13:30] that like? Um, did you do three years of that?

Payvand Menhadji: Three years of that. So at 18, I kind [00:13:35] of wasn’t sure what I’d want to do. I was good at science. Put biology and chemistry [00:13:40] together. Biochemistry? Yeah. Um, it was the best three years of my life. [00:13:45] Really? That was the best parties, honestly. I made [00:13:50] really good friends. Yeah. Lived out in London.

Payman Langroudi: For the whole three years.

Payvand Menhadji: Whole three years. Central [00:13:55] London. You know, you’re living your best life, basically. They were the golden years. And then [00:14:00] I really wanted to stay on at King’s because I had such a good time. Yeah, but King’s rejected me, so [00:14:05] I went to Liverpool.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so you’ve had some sort of rejection in your life?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, I have, yeah. [00:14:10] Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: So at the end, like, that’s quite a massive commitment, right? I mean [00:14:15] and we know like that’s what I was telling you about my daughter, she’s 15 and people are asking questions like, [00:14:20] who do you want to be. What do you want to be.

Payvand Menhadji: How do you know that age?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but I’m saying from 15 till [00:14:25] today.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve been working at it.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Biochem [00:14:30] such a nerd.

Payman Langroudi: But I’m saying on the day that they awarded you [00:14:35] that speciality. Sort of.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. The graduation is next [00:14:40] summer, actually.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, has it not happened yet? Has it happened yet? There must have been like a feeling. What was the feeling? Relief. How [00:14:45] would you characterise it? Pride. Were you proud of yourself?

Payvand Menhadji: I was.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. It’s [00:14:50] so funny. The motivations in life are so funny. You know, like like, [00:14:55] why does one do what one does?

Payvand Menhadji: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: You know, like, right now, Trump’s looking for a Nobel Peace [00:15:00] Prize. Like, why? Yeah. You know.

Payvand Menhadji: It’s so funny you say that. And I reflect [00:15:05] on this. You try so hard and then you achieve that thing. No one really cares. [00:15:10] It’s for you, you know?

Payman Langroudi: And I even think, like, there’s some scripting in, like, you know, [00:15:15] um, I never really fancied going to Japan for years and [00:15:20] years. I just scripted myself. I don’t want to go to Japan. And now I’m desperate to go to Japan.

Payvand Menhadji: Why do you [00:15:25] think that is?

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know, I’m just saying it’s just scripting. You script yourself in different directions. You convince yourself [00:15:30] you are this cat, and then there’s like a feedback loop because you’ve got something.

Payvand Menhadji: You believe [00:15:35] in it and.

Payman Langroudi: Some form of identity, you.

Payvand Menhadji: Know? Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And and then at the end of it all, [00:15:40] if you really examine it properly, you realise those sliding door moments in your life, like, [00:15:45] I don’t know, my dad said, let’s move to San Francisco when we were seven. Imagine that. It [00:15:50] was this whole other American cat. Exactly.

Payvand Menhadji: You could have taken a different path. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:15:55] And so many things in life are like that. Yeah. How do you feel about that? Do you feel like. [00:16:00] Are you a fatalist or are you, you know, are you do you think like everything’s random or how do you [00:16:05] feel about.

Payvand Menhadji: I think I think I’ve managed I think about [00:16:10] what the next step actually. So I’ve, I’m at a point in my life now where I’ve [00:16:15] kind of achieved, achieved everything I want to so far and [00:16:20] I’m done, you know, which is nice. I don’t think it’s fate. I’ve kind of had [00:16:25] a goal and then I’ve achieved that goal, you know, go to dental school, do perio, have a baby? [00:16:30] But now I’m done. So I don’t know what the next step is, but it’s good to, like, [00:16:35] I’m going to actually relax and my friends and family don’t believe me. They’re like, hey, there’ll be something [00:16:40] else, but I’m going to take a break. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So look, the the the [00:16:45] upside of being this person is very obvious, isn’t it? Yeah. [00:16:50] The downside of it constantly putting pressure on yourself.

Payvand Menhadji: Yes [00:16:55] you’re right. And it’s quite regimented, isn’t it? Um. I’m always doing something, [00:17:00] but I can’t sit still.

Payman Langroudi: But you, like, guilt ridden if you’re not achieving something. [00:17:05]

Payvand Menhadji: I don’t think so. I think I like the challenge. Yeah, I think [00:17:10] that’s what motivates me. I just think, like, especially if somebody says, oh, you can’t do that. And [00:17:15] this at the same time, I’m like, hold my drink, you know.

Payman Langroudi: No, I had I [00:17:20] had no idea on this pod. And I made my daughter listen to that pod. [00:17:25]

Payvand Menhadji: I mean, she’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Because the way I said to my daughter, just count how many times she was [00:17:30] too young at that point to really take it seriously. Yeah, but I but I made a little game for her. So just [00:17:35] count how many times she said, that’s really fun. Yeah. And she’d say stuff like, oh, you know, it was like [00:17:40] seven days a week. But it was really fun. I was really enjoying whatever it was.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. [00:17:45]

Payman Langroudi: What an outlook she’s got.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. I mean, she’s juggling so many hats. Um, her [00:17:50] practice, her kids, her. No, I think she’s an absolute powerhouse. [00:17:55] I’m not like Reena. She’s in another league. Um, yeah. [00:18:00] She’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think you’ll end up in your own practice the way she’s done it?

Payvand Menhadji: No. [00:18:05] I think so. My husband wants to buy a practice where hopefully [00:18:10] things will work out soon.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an endodontist.

Payvand Menhadji: No special interest. Um, [00:18:15] if we couldn’t have two crazy specialists. Too much work. Yeah. And also, like, financial [00:18:20] commitment. Um. Bless him, he supported me a lot as well. Um, so [00:18:25] hopefully he’ll have his practice. Um, he has a partner as well, so [00:18:30] that they can do their own thing. I just want to be good at my craft. I’m not in it for like the. [00:18:35]

Payman Langroudi: Do they have a practice?

Payvand Menhadji: They’re getting one. Hopefully things will work out. Yeah. Next year. Um, [00:18:40] but yeah, I just want to be good at what I do and hopefully yeah, maybe work there, but [00:18:45] maybe continue at the other practices I work at. I just want to be the person who [00:18:50] people refer really hard stuff to because they’re like, actually, I don’t know what to do. That’s [00:18:55] gangster.

Payman Langroudi: Has it started already? I mean, do you have a referring base of Dental? [00:19:00]

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How does that happen? How does like how does the evolution of, you know, not being someone [00:19:05] people refer to. Yeah. And then turn into being someone people think of to refer to.

Payvand Menhadji: Which is really nice [00:19:10] actually. Yeah. I think people talk as well. Um, people talk. So you’ve got [00:19:15] to be careful what you do to your patients. It’s such a small world. Nurses talk [00:19:20] as well. Yeah. You know, I work with so many different nurses and hygienists and you [00:19:25] got to you got to keep keep a good impression to everybody because everyone knows everyone. [00:19:30] You know, that. Um, but I think referrals started just by friends [00:19:35] first. You know, I’ve got loads of mates who are dentists, and then Instagram has kind of blown [00:19:40] up for me as well. People see your work and then they reach out.

Payman Langroudi: You’re getting a lot of patients from Instagram. [00:19:45] Yeah that’s nice.

Payvand Menhadji: From dentists though.

Payman Langroudi: From dentists.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Because [00:19:50] my aim is to appeal to dentists, not to patients. Right. Yeah. No. You know, patients are like, I’ve [00:19:55] got gum disease. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: As a specialist, your customer is the dentist. Exactly [00:20:00] right.

Payvand Menhadji: It’s a hard line not to be like. You want to be professional, but [00:20:05] not cringe. I think it’s difficult.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payvand Menhadji: On social media, you know.

Payman Langroudi: So what [00:20:10] would you say is the difference? I mean, I just had the previous guy as an orthodontist asking me, what’s the difference between [00:20:15] a good periodontist and a periodontist?

Payvand Menhadji: Um, I [00:20:20] think the problem in the UK is a lot of dentists think perio [00:20:25] is really boring and it’s just scaling, right? Gum gardening. But it’s a surgical speciality. [00:20:30] And in other countries in Europe and America and stuff, they [00:20:35] see us as like the best surgeons. But in the UK, because of our training, well, [00:20:40] I think my training was very good actually, because we had some great consultants, [00:20:45] etc. but like it’s just changing that stigma and then showing dentists [00:20:50] like actually this is what we can do. Um, it’s not just cleaning teeth. [00:20:55] I really want to step away from that, actually. Like, I just of course it’s important, but when you [00:21:00] work with such good hygienists as well, you know, you can delegate work and then they send [00:21:05] you work back and you work as a really nice team.

Payman Langroudi: So what’s the answer to my question?

Payvand Menhadji: I’ve [00:21:10] got a baby brain, haven’t I?

Payman Langroudi: Difference between a good and a great periodontist. [00:21:15] So those surgical skills.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, I think great periodontists are surgical skills. [00:21:20] Not being afraid of anything. And good treatment planning.

Payman Langroudi: And you said you’re [00:21:25] kind of area of interest is sort of that mucogingival grafting.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so [00:21:30] tell me about that. I mean, there’s a lot of it. There’s a lot more need for [00:21:35] that than I realised, actually.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. I mean, most of the time it is an elective procedure. [00:21:40] Yeah. Um, you know, patients aren’t going to die if they don’t have it, and the teeth aren’t, [00:21:45] you know, most of the time going to fall out. But, um, maybe it’s because I’m in this [00:21:50] world so much, but I’m seeing so much more of it now. Yeah. Um. So. Yeah. [00:21:55] Gum. Recession surgery. There’s so many different types of ways, um, you know, [00:22:00] tunnelling, coronally, advanced flaps, etc., etc.. So I just think it’s so meticulous [00:22:05] and can be very stressful, actually. I just [00:22:10] love being in that moment. For me, it’s like meditation, honestly.

Payman Langroudi: Go on. What’s like a the [00:22:15] key to it?

Payvand Menhadji: The key to it is, you [00:22:20] know, diagnosis is really important. So, you know, if you understand like the [00:22:25] area the defect really well then you know which surgical technique to [00:22:30] use. I think that’s what’s critical, because sometimes you might do something that, you [00:22:35] know, you didn’t diagnose right and it might, you know, be a shit show.

Payman Langroudi: What do you do? Do you get like a cbct or [00:22:40] something to literally see every bit of it?

Payvand Menhadji: No, it’s more like understanding, [00:22:45] like your limitations. So you can’t grow all the um, so for example, we’ve [00:22:50] got RT one and two and three defects. Do you remember the Miller’s classification? So there’s [00:22:55] a new one.

Payman Langroudi: Oh yes.

Payvand Menhadji: Well it’s not that new 2011. We call it chiro. [00:23:00] So it’s knowing like okay the bone has been lost. We can only grow the gum back [00:23:05] to the level of the bone. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I see.

Payvand Menhadji: I see stuff like that. Um, and then managing patients expectations [00:23:10] from the outset, um, these things are really critical to getting a good result. [00:23:15]

Payman Langroudi: And traditional perio patients, you know, with [00:23:20] them I always think of like, you know, the the patient [00:23:25] changing their behaviour is like 90% of the battle, right?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, [00:23:30] I think the as specialists, we’re lucky because when they’ve come and [00:23:35] kind of paid for a console their game, you know, because somebody already [00:23:40] the dentist has done the soft sell and then I’ve done the hard sell, you know. So [00:23:45] I think most of the time conversion rate is like, I don’t know, nine out of ten. You know, most [00:23:50] people are willing to put in the work and the effort to fix their problem. You know, they’ve [00:23:55] come to that consultation. So I don’t find I’m spending too much time, um, [00:24:00] trying to change behaviour. They’re they’re almost ready. Like the hygienists and dentists have done [00:24:05] an excellent job. And it’s just.

Payman Langroudi: I guess by the time it’s gotten to you, they’ve already taken care of that.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, [00:24:10] exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah, yeah.

Payvand Menhadji: Which is a blessing, really, because.

Payman Langroudi: I had a periodontist [00:24:15] that I used to refer to when I was dentist. And, you know, the great thing about him was like, for instance, my, [00:24:20] my kind of referral would be I want to stick a bridge. Yeah, but [00:24:25] this recession.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I’m not sure whether these teeth can take it or not.

Payvand Menhadji: Yes, [00:24:30] exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Something like that. That would be the classic. The classic. Right. But the great thing about him [00:24:35] is he would send the patient back with a full treatment plan. Yeah.

Payvand Menhadji: Restorative.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Even [00:24:40] the other side. Yeah. Like. And the patient would go, like I’m thinking, will he or won’t [00:24:45] he go ahead with this bridge. Will I, will I be able to and come back with two other crowns and all that?

Payvand Menhadji: Absolutely. [00:24:50]

Payman Langroudi: And that’s because he was good at restorative. And I don’t know if you ever came.

Payvand Menhadji: I have heard of him. Yes. [00:24:55] He was at guy’s. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, I think one of my implant consultants [00:25:00] works with him. Care of Andy?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s right, that’s right, that’s [00:25:05] right.

Payvand Menhadji: Um, yeah, exactly. So, you know, our exams are restorative as [00:25:10] well. So if you give back the dentist, more work to do. Yeah. [00:25:15] They’re going to keep referring to you.

Payman Langroudi: And the patients. Like going to respect your opinion [00:25:20] more than the dentist because you’re the together. You’re the clever specialist, right? So, like, [00:25:25] you know what I mean? That’s. That’s the position you’re in.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, so, no, I [00:25:30] think it’s that is a really good point. And we do definitely do that. We get more work for the dentist, [00:25:35] um, whether they like it or not. Really? Yeah. [00:25:40]

Payman Langroudi: Have you come across patients where, um. I mean, I mean, there must these [00:25:45] must be the ones you come across where for no reason, you can’t see why it’s not working. [00:25:50] Perio treatment isn’t working. It goes down. I kind of we kind of blame genetics. Right. Yeah. [00:25:55]

Payvand Menhadji: It’s, I think, to be honest, with good perio treatment. [00:26:00] Because now what we do is. Yeah, we do. Step one is kind of risk factors [00:26:05] supragingival cleaning. Step two is the nonsurgical phase. So we know we’ll [00:26:10] have residual pockets. So the studies say we have about 74% residual pockets on [00:26:15] average. So we’ve resolved 74%. So there’s some remaining. And then we [00:26:20] enter the surgical phase. So if you know, you could either do non-surgical [00:26:25] again, but if you do the surgical phase, then you’re eliminating those pockets and then you’ve [00:26:30] made the patient stable. So it’s never the case of.

Payman Langroudi: Something that [00:26:35] runs away.

Payvand Menhadji: Exactly. Which I think at Liverpool when I was a student, [00:26:40] I thought, oh, we’re just going round in circles. I used to make up my pocket charts [00:26:45] and like, really hate perio, but now I’ve realised, you know, you can stabilise [00:26:50] a perio patient and that is the whole point. So if you do it properly, you know. Yeah, [00:26:55] we’re not curing them but they’re stabilised. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk implants [00:27:00] from the peri periodontists perspective. So you must as a periodontist you must bring something [00:27:05] to that. Right, to that, to that discussion. I mean yeah. Are we, are we, are we talking sort of in [00:27:10] the anterior zone. You’re managing the soft, the pink so that it all looks natural, [00:27:15] better than the next guy who’s not a periodontist who doesn’t, you know.

Payvand Menhadji: I mean, I have.

Payman Langroudi: To get better. I mean. [00:27:20]

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, I have to be honest. I’m still a baby specialist, I think. Anterior zone [00:27:25] is. I think the more you know, the more you know your limitations. [00:27:30] And I think a lot of gdp’s no disrespect to GDPs. You know, they’re happy [00:27:35] to place loads of implants in the anterior zone. They don’t think of any hard or soft tissue grafting [00:27:40] and it looks shit. Um, but, you know, we we pick our cases [00:27:45] so carefully, and if it’s out of my scope, you know, I’ll team up with somebody like a [00:27:50] mentor or I’ll refer on because I don’t think I’m kind of good enough to do that yet. [00:27:55] Um, anterior zone is very complicated. Yeah. Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And at the higher [00:28:00] level. Right. I mean, where you’ve got patients paying loads of money, it’s got to be right.

Payvand Menhadji: Absolutely. [00:28:05] High smile line. You know, thin gingiva. Yeah. You got to do something about [00:28:10] it.

Payman Langroudi: In that situation. Would you handle that right now yourself or you wouldn’t you refer refer. [00:28:15]

Payvand Menhadji: I’m definitely not there yet in terms of implants, anterior zone simple implants, [00:28:20] back teeth, etc. for sure. My plan is after maternity [00:28:25] leave to really take that on. Our training at guy’s was was good, but [00:28:30] it wasn’t. I think we need more experience, you know? [00:28:35]

Payman Langroudi: Implant experience.

Payvand Menhadji: Implant experience. Yeah, we we placed a lot. [00:28:40] But it’s it’s just there’s so much to it. It’s a whole nother discipline in my opinion. [00:28:45] So to say I’m amazing at it would be a lie. You know, I’ve got a lot to learn.

Payman Langroudi: Do [00:28:50] you plan to do you plan to move in that direction specifically?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. I want my work to be [00:28:55] 50%, 50% implants. I think that’s what would make me happy. I want [00:29:00] to kind of stop the non-surgical side.

Payman Langroudi: Well, I find implantology really is an all or [00:29:05] nothing kind of thing.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So and it goes on and [00:29:10] on and on. It’s like. It’s not like. It’s just like it keeps evolving. Exactly.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And [00:29:15] like I say, the more you learn, the more you realise. Bloody hell, there’s so much to know. But [00:29:20] when people do, you know these weekend courses, you just think what on earth [00:29:25] like?

Payman Langroudi: I guess it’s the beginning of the journey sometimes.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, yeah. But I think maybe [00:29:30] because I’ve been down this academic specialist route, [00:29:35] I’m less kind of confident to just get [00:29:40] stuck in. But I think I pick everything carefully. I’m more risk averse, I [00:29:45] guess. I only perform like a surgery if I know I’m going to execute it really well. [00:29:50] You know what I mean?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payvand Menhadji: But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, the first time you do anything [00:29:55] new, you’re not going to perform it really well, are you? Yeah, but.

Payvand Menhadji: You have, like, plan B and C maybe your [00:30:00] mentor there. Right. Yeah. Whereas some people, I think they just go in blind. Implant in [00:30:05] the sinus.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes the best dentist though. Yeah. Because they figure it out like they [00:30:10] figured out differently to you, you know. Yeah. You’re right.

Payvand Menhadji: You’re right, you’re right. And some people, [00:30:15] you know, in my class, people say I’m quite ballsy. Like, I’m the, like, crazy one. And I’m [00:30:20] thinking GDPs are way crazier than I am, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Do you end up in sort of [00:30:25] the medico legal world as well?

Payvand Menhadji: Do I?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Not. Not personally. [00:30:30] What do you mean, as an expert?

Payvand Menhadji: No, I’m not.

Payman Langroudi: Doing any of.

Payvand Menhadji: That. No, I’m not into that. No, [00:30:35] I hate reading.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Um, lots [00:30:40] of. Yeah, lots of implant dentists can tend to do that, actually. I wonder whether it’s because [00:30:45] they’ve had, like, a case and then they end up doing.

Payman Langroudi: I think some people think [00:30:50] it’s easy money compared to, like, you know, spending your time sticking stuff in patients.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Maybe I’d [00:30:55] rather have the day off, to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But and I think there’s a lot of litigation.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. [00:31:00] Of course. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There’s lots of work.

Payvand Menhadji: Exactly, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:31:05] it’s one of those. It’s one of those things that, like, I don’t know, I don’t know. I [00:31:10] haven’t looked into it enough, but I guess there’s a lot of period Neglect?

Payvand Menhadji: Yes, [00:31:15] but luckily I’m on the other side of that. Right? Yeah, because I’m helping and [00:31:20] treating those patients. But I think yeah GDP is bless them.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes, sometimes forget [00:31:25] to do pocket charts.

Payvand Menhadji: Or. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah exactly. [00:31:30]

Payman Langroudi: I think I think it’s not, it’s not the most like litigious bit of dentistry.

Payvand Menhadji: It’s, it’s [00:31:35] pretty high up there. Pretty high. I haven’t checked the stats recently but I think went to a BDA lecture [00:31:40] a couple years back and it was one of the highest.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s like third or fourth or something.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. [00:31:45] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You can imagine RCTs are going to be problematic. Yeah. You can imagine. [00:31:50] You can imagine implants, ortho you know like expectation management [00:31:55] side of things. Um, now my kids have been through ortho I kind of realised you [00:32:00] become super picky, man. As the patient, you become super [00:32:05] picky.

Payvand Menhadji: This is a little bit wonky.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, because it’s almost like this. These kids been through it for two years and [00:32:10] they’re going to pull it off and then that’s it. That’s you haven’t got a chance. And the weird thing is, the moment they take it off, you [00:32:15] don’t even bother with that ever again. You don’t think about it. It’s like some little corner that was really pissing you off. Yeah. [00:32:20] You just completely forget all about it. It’s so true.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, I actually had braces [00:32:25] when I was younger and then braces again at dental school because, you know, you’re around. [00:32:30] Yeah. Relapse. And you as a dentist, you want to have nice teeth, right? And you realise [00:32:35] it’s like a hairdresser. You have to have good hair. And I had, um, fixed braces [00:32:40] for two years at Liverpool. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you work now in five different practices? [00:32:45] Yeah. And I’m sure you’ve worked in a bunch of other practices as well.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, I have.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a question [00:32:50] I kind of ask specialists because they’ve got a good insight into this. What [00:32:55] lessons have you learned about business management practice management [00:33:00] from being exposed to so many different practices? Because even the best ones [00:33:05] do things differently to each other.

Payvand Menhadji: Absolutely. I think one of the best practices [00:33:10] I work at, out. Um. It’s just so well organised. You know, they have [00:33:15] probably more staff than they need, but it’s it’s costing. But then that’s [00:33:20] reflected, I suppose, in the prices. But it makes the clinicians and the patient journey [00:33:25] just so slick.

Payman Langroudi: I just think there’s not enough humans in dental practices generally.

Payvand Menhadji: Yes. [00:33:30] But you know they can hire more. But it’s a cost isn’t it? It’s a [00:33:35] yeah. Like in.

Payman Langroudi: Private dentistry.

Payvand Menhadji: Right.

Payman Langroudi: You can make up that.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. [00:33:40]

Payman Langroudi: Quite easily. You can make up the cost of a nurse for a day.

Payvand Menhadji: I agree.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but what I’m my reflection [00:33:45] on it is you walk into a room.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or a IV? These [00:33:50] aren’t high, expensive restaurants. Right. There’s a lot of humans. There’s a lot of humans. [00:33:55] There’s someone greeting you at the door. There’s someone else taking you to your table. There’s a third person coming in. Wine person. Whatever. [00:34:00] Yeah, there’s a lot of people there’s in dentistry. We seem to really have the bare minimum. [00:34:05]

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So this place has more people, more humans.

Payvand Menhadji: More humans is important, number one. Yeah. Um, [00:34:10] I think I mean, one of these practices, we’ve got somebody who’s on, [00:34:15] you know, we’ve got two people on reception, and there’s one person working from home who [00:34:20] answering calls, answering calls. But just any time you message them, they will just sort out [00:34:25] whatever you need. You know, I’ll just be like, can you do X, Y, and Z for these appointments next week? And [00:34:30] it’s done in a minute, you know.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s just so you’re saying you’re saying not to forget that someone can sit at [00:34:35] home and do a bunch of stuff.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, exactly. Work remotely as well. And I guess, you know, if you’re a mother [00:34:40] as well, you want to work part time. That’s such a great job.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a good insight.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Yeah, [00:34:45] yeah. Remote working. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Anymore?

Payvand Menhadji: Anymore? Let me think. Um. [00:34:50] Yeah. More nurses for sure. Pay your nurses properly if you find a good nurse. Especially [00:34:55] these surgical nurses are. They’re just amazing. They’re gold. And it’s really [00:35:00] funny because I end up seeing them at the same practices. Like there’s a handful in [00:35:05] London that kind of work in all the right places, and you end up seeing them again and again. And yeah, [00:35:10] if we can keep those around. Brilliant. Just appreciate [00:35:15] them. Um, but I think more people, good nurses who?

Payman Langroudi: Any of them. If you [00:35:20] come across a practice where, um, marketing’s been amazing.

Payvand Menhadji: So [00:35:25] some of my practices, they spend so much money on that kind of stuff.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the opposite.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. And [00:35:30] I’m looking at it, and I’m thinking, what’s actually bringing in the patients? I don’t think it’s the marketing. [00:35:35] Um, I think it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Word of mouth.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Word of mouth is [00:35:40] number one. Always. Um, absolutely. But it’s tricky, isn’t it? I [00:35:45] mean, I’m not a practice owner. I think it’s really challenging, but they spend so much on marketing. [00:35:50]

Payman Langroudi: So there’s something you’re kind of. You’re saying I wouldn’t if you’re lesson [00:35:55] learnt is too much money’s being spent on marketing. Yeah. And what perhaps you’re [00:36:00] saying, like, you could push that resource into customer care or whatever.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Or like, sometimes [00:36:05] I think, um, especially as a referral centre. If you’ve got lots of specialists, [00:36:10] it’s good to hold things like CPD evenings, etc. study days, [00:36:15] get the local GP’s around, look after them, give them good food and drinks, um, [00:36:20] make a community and that’s going to bring in more patients.

Payman Langroudi: Have you been around [00:36:25] long enough for people? Someone stopped referring to you.

Payvand Menhadji: Stop referring to me.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:36:30] I’ve noticed. I’ve noticed that the specialists really they have real pain about that one [00:36:35] when that happens. And the best it happens to the best.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, yeah. You know, it’s I mean, it’s early days [00:36:40] for me. It hasn’t happened yet. I haven’t I don’t think I’ve pissed anyone off yet.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a churn rate. Yeah. [00:36:45] There’s a churn rate of customers in every business. Yeah. In your business. Right. The customers are [00:36:50] dentists. There will be a churn rate. And that’s why it’s one of the hardest things about being a specialist is you.

Payvand Menhadji: Break [00:36:55] my heart.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, well, not not only the, the the sort of that emotional side of it, you [00:37:00] constantly have to get more dentists to refer to you. Yeah. Because there is a constant churn. [00:37:05]

Payvand Menhadji: Yes, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, people move around, people sell their practices. And one [00:37:10] thing I’ve noticed with specialists is sometimes they’re overreliant on 1 or 2 referrers. [00:37:15]

Payvand Menhadji: That’s, you know, I can see that in my work. Um, I mean, luckily, the practice [00:37:20] kind of the practice is, um, give me so many [00:37:25] patients, naturally, you know, they’re in-house, but the external referrals, you know, it’s [00:37:30] it’s the same few people usually, who are just really keeping you busy. [00:37:35]

Payman Langroudi: So imagine that you’re like, imagine 1 or 2.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. [00:37:40]

Payman Langroudi: I lost. Suddenly it changes the whole, you know, economics number one. It does. But but [00:37:45] also I’ve noticed specialists get hurt. Yeah. And by the way, I get it right. I’m [00:37:50] hurt when someone leaves enlightened. It’s. I feel like it’s my my baby. Yeah.

Payvand Menhadji: Of [00:37:55] course. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It does. I do get it. Yeah. But you haven’t. You haven’t [00:38:00] gone far enough in your journey to come across that particular pain point.

Payvand Menhadji: I’ll let you know when someone breaks [00:38:05] my heart. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah I know. I know you haven’t had one of these for a long time. [00:38:10] Yeah, but what would you do if you had half a day off?

Payvand Menhadji: And actually, I [00:38:15] had one on Thursday. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: No expectations.

Payvand Menhadji: No expectations. Because. [00:38:20] Because I’m getting quite big now. I mean, the principles are taking care of me.

Payman Langroudi: You weren’t [00:38:25] big.

Payvand Menhadji: Ah. What was the question again?

Payman Langroudi: What would you do if you had a time off? If you had time to yourself. [00:38:30]

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, I’m going to. I’m going to have a facial. I’m going to get my nails done. Yeah. Self-care [00:38:35] stuff. Shopping.

Payman Langroudi: Shopping.

Payvand Menhadji: I’m not going to sit at home, basically, but I’m going to go out and look after [00:38:40] myself.

Payman Langroudi: But so you said you said you live in Battersea. Yeah. [00:38:45] Have you been to that thing? The power station thing?

Payvand Menhadji: Of course. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’m [00:38:50] there all the time, though. I don’t even like shopping. Yeah, but it’s cool there.

Payvand Menhadji: It’s cool, isn’t [00:38:55] it? You’ve got nice shops. I love Battersea Park. You’ll see me on the weekend, you know. Oh, yeah. [00:39:00] Um, but, yeah, it’s yes, it’s a lovely neck of the woods, I love it, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:39:05] going forward, do you see yourself? Just. Is this it? Is this. Is this the way you’re going to be. [00:39:10]

Payvand Menhadji: I think.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your next goal?

Payvand Menhadji: I’m going to take it. Not not not take a step back. [00:39:15] But I want to see what my husband does next, to be honest. You know, he’s a dentist, etc. he’s [00:39:20] going to start the practice. I’m going to be a mum. And do you know where.

Payman Langroudi: The practice is yet or not?

Payvand Menhadji: It’ll [00:39:25] be south west somewhere. We don’t know yet. Um, but now I’m excited for him [00:39:30] because it’s all been about me, you know, being a specialist, blah, blah blah. So [00:39:35] it’s time to, like, back off a bit. So because we were in the same year at [00:39:40] university as well. So um, and then I think afterwards after [00:39:45] mat leave, my plan is to, yeah, get really stuck in with more difficult implant [00:39:50] work and work on those skills. We’re never stopping learning, right? Yeah. I mean, [00:39:55] I told you one of my biggest mentors is Amit Patel. He’s like [00:40:00] 50 odd And his place. He wouldn’t like me saying that. Probably he’s [00:40:05] placing zygomatic implants. Now he goes to trips to Brazil.

Payman Langroudi: Still learning.

Payvand Menhadji: He’s still learning. [00:40:10] And I’m like, why are you bothering? You know, with zygotes? Why? You know, why are you doing that? And he’s [00:40:15] like, because it’s cool. Like you just want to level up.

Payman Langroudi: So do you [00:40:20] see yourself going to that.

Payvand Menhadji: At this moment? No. Maybe. Never [00:40:25] say never. Yeah. Um. Never say never, [00:40:30] but I don’t I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: Why do you think it is? There aren’t enough women in [00:40:35] surgery and implants and all that.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, it’s like a boys thing, isn’t it? We always say it’s an old boys [00:40:40] club. The, um. It could be because of maternity and stuff. You know, [00:40:45] people, women have kids, and then they just decide, oh, I’m making enough money part time. [00:40:50] I don’t really have the time to dedicate to more courses. And learning [00:40:55] could be that, um, maybe women are a bit more risk averse, [00:41:00] unfortunately. Um, but no, it shouldn’t be. And actually, through [00:41:05] the API, I’ve realised there are so much more women. Yeah, it is changing. I [00:41:10] mean, we’ve got the next, um, members forum coming up and, you know, we’ve [00:41:15] got lots of female speakers. You know, they do these things intentionally. Yeah. Um, but it makes [00:41:20] a difference. You know, last year I was watching, you know, lots of women. And then this year I’m going to [00:41:25] be speaking, and I feel like I’ve just graduated. Um, but it’s really nice.

Payman Langroudi: Are you speaking [00:41:30] at the full on event or.

Payvand Menhadji: I need to.

Payman Langroudi: Make a.

Payvand Menhadji: Presentation. No, the full on one.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. [00:41:35] Um.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s. What’s it on?

Payvand Menhadji: It’s on gum grafting. [00:41:40]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. Around implants.

Payvand Menhadji: Round implants and teeth.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:41:45] let’s talk. Peri implantitis. Is it like the time bomb? People say.

Payvand Menhadji: Um, [00:41:50] I think it’s. Listen, everything’s about prevention, [00:41:55] right? So I always use the analogy. An implant is like a Ferrari in the mouth. [00:42:00] You need a good garage and you need more frequent mots. I say that to every patient and [00:42:05] then they’re like, oh, okay, but everyone can have them. Perio patients can have them. [00:42:10] Prevention is key. Once it happens, it’s really easy [00:42:15] now for me to put my perio hat on and see like why it’s happened. Lack of keratinised [00:42:20] tissue and cleansable, you know, poor placement cement. [00:42:25] Um, and I think if you can correct those factors and [00:42:30] then kind of try to stabilise the disease, it can be okay. But if you just kind of clean the implant, not [00:42:35] correct why it’s happened, it’s going to still remain a problem.

Payman Langroudi: So whether [00:42:40] or not you can correct it. Yeah. It depends on the particular situation. [00:42:45]

Payvand Menhadji: Exactly. Diagnosis is key. Right.

Payman Langroudi: I guess it’s the same with teeth as [00:42:50] well, right?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or is there something about periimplantitis is different to teeth? I mean, in that.

Payvand Menhadji: Sense, it’s more aggressive, [00:42:55] right?

Payman Langroudi: Is it, is it.

Payvand Menhadji: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Like, bone loss around implants is so much quicker [00:43:00] than teeth. Okay, so, yeah, we have to act faster. Um, and [00:43:05] it can go undetected for so long. Right. If a dentist isn’t probing the area or taking, you [00:43:10] know, regular ads, you might just not know because the patient has no symptoms. Um, [00:43:15] so, yeah, it’s important to do.

Payman Langroudi: Do you get mobile implants that you have to then [00:43:20] remove and then I guess, figure out why that happened and not make that mistake the [00:43:25] second time. Is that what.

Payvand Menhadji: No, it’s it’s interesting. Even if an implant has about 5 to [00:43:30] 10% of bone, it can be quite solid. Oh, really? It’s really rare.

Payman Langroudi: Is that why you mean it’s not undetected? [00:43:35]

Payvand Menhadji: Exactly. It’s really rare for an implant to be actually mobile. The implant itself, [00:43:40] the crown can be mobile, and then you just screw it back in. Hopefully. Yeah. Um, but [00:43:45] it’s rare for the implant to be mobile, so at that stage, it’s hopeless. It’s got to come out, [00:43:50] and then you can gbr redo an implant if the case suits. [00:43:55] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And have you got two bone graft with [00:44:00] four implants? Is that what you mean?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Bone grafts. Um, you can use [00:44:05] xenografts. Allografts. People use mixtures of things. So. Yeah. Guided [00:44:10] bone regeneration. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And soft tissue [00:44:15] as well. Sometimes it just, you know, it’s all on alveolar mucosa and that’s why everything’s failed. Because [00:44:20] it’s like a plaque slide going into the implant neck. Whereas you need that thick [00:44:25] collar of keratinised tissue sometimes.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to the darker part okay. [00:44:30] The pod should have like a music. Um, [00:44:35] what’s what if what comes to mind as the darkest day in the journey? [00:44:40] Or some of them so far?

Payvand Menhadji: Do you mean, um, in [00:44:45] my training or whatever you want? I’ve had some dark days, [00:44:50] my friend. Have you? Yeah. Period. This year of final year [00:44:55] has been really tough.

Payman Langroudi: Really? So you reckon from your whole biochem, dentistry [00:45:00] and specialist journey, this year was the hardest year.

Payvand Menhadji: This year was [00:45:05] the hardest year of my life. Yeah, it was just we say [00:45:10] exams like. And people just imagine us just studying. You’ve got non stop clinics [00:45:15] on top. The clinics don’t stop at the hospital. So you’re still treating patients like you would normally [00:45:20] because they don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Referral patients to the hospital.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah exactly. Because it’s an NHS [00:45:25] service. Right. And I had to beg my consultants to take two days [00:45:30] of study leave extra because, you know, I didn’t have enough days. Apparently [00:45:35] you only get ten a year or something. Um, to go to the Europa Conference. You know, [00:45:40] I had to, like, beg them. So I think you have so many commitments and you’re juggling [00:45:45] so many things, and you just sometimes think, bloody hell, like, I just need a break. Um, [00:45:50] but.

Payman Langroudi: Did you have a moment? Like, was it? I lost it. I mean, sometimes these moments [00:45:55] are like the straw that breaks the camel’s back. But did you have concurrent things? It [00:46:00] was your whole.

Payvand Menhadji: First trimester, I think. Yeah. I just couldn’t handle it. Every [00:46:05] day I was, like, trying to get through the next day. Feeling sick. Had so [00:46:10] much to do. Work was piling up. Practices, messaging you. What about this patient? When are [00:46:15] you back? What are you doing? Um. Your family as well. You know, you’ve got expectations [00:46:20] of being like a daughter, a best friend, a wife, etc.. You’re pulled from all different [00:46:25] sides, but you got through it, you know? [00:46:30] And that’s the thing. There’s always a really difficult period. And then it will come to an [00:46:35] end. And then you can look back and say, God, I won’t do that again.

Payman Langroudi: That sort of [00:46:40] idea of wanting it all. Yeah. Do you accept it’s impossible to have it all?

Payvand Menhadji: Um. [00:46:45]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it depends what all is, right? Yeah, exactly. [00:46:50]

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, I’ve got everything touch with that I’ve wanted. I’m looking at someone like Rena. [00:46:55] She looks like she’s got it all, you know?

Payman Langroudi: So it depends what you call.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, it depends what you call. [00:47:00] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because someone could say, oh, I want it all, I want kids, I want to be a specialist. [00:47:05] I want 130 practices as well.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s quite you know what I mean. Yeah, [00:47:10] yeah.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. You’ve got to be realistic as well.

Payman Langroudi: There is someone like that.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [00:47:15] Of course. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean. Yeah. You can, you can laugh at it [00:47:20] and someone else will laugh at you. Yeah. And say wow, look at her and [00:47:25] laugh at her. Yeah. Look up to you and say, look at her. Got a kid on the way just did that. [00:47:30]

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but my question where it’s going is this notion of if you [00:47:35] accept that, you can’t have it all.

Payvand Menhadji: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: What gives like what aspect [00:47:40] gives? Like you just mentioned their family.

Payvand Menhadji: Something’s got to give, right? [00:47:45]

Payman Langroudi: Often it’s yourself, isn’t it? Your own health and your own mental health sometimes.

Payvand Menhadji: Absolutely. For me, [00:47:50] it was a relationship. Yes. They call it. You know, they call these courses the divorce course.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:47:55]

Payvand Menhadji: Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, my relationship, we’ve had ups [00:48:00] and downs. We’re fine, you know, but there are periods where I probably drive him crazy. [00:48:05] Um, just because you’re stressed, right? And, [00:48:10] I mean, I used to be quite fit. I was always going to the gym, and then that took a real [00:48:15] turn. Um, I’ve got the excuse of being pregnant now. I’m just scared of going back [00:48:20] to the gym. Um, something’s got to give. You’re absolutely right. And usually it is your own health, [00:48:25] isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: You need that conversation to be had more, you know, because the other side of it, of [00:48:30] I want it all. And why can’t I have it all? Yeah, that seems to have been a conversation. Like people, you hear that [00:48:35] narrative quite a lot. Yeah. But the reality end of the of that equation [00:48:40] that okay. I mean, listen, by the way that I know, um, I [00:48:45] had Anushka from the mirror here. She’s got. She’s got a naughty [00:48:50] practices.

Payvand Menhadji: The purple one.

Payman Langroudi: Three children.

Payvand Menhadji: Wow. [00:48:55]

Payman Langroudi: Um, you know, there’s a lot, lot going on, but but, you know, even she was telling me she’s she’s [00:49:00] never really travelled.

Payvand Menhadji: Yes, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: You know, and she’s she’s sunk. You don’t get to 40 [00:49:05] practices by spending the money. Yeah. You get the 40 practice by sinking every penny back in.

Payvand Menhadji: Yes. [00:49:10]

Payman Langroudi: And on her anniversary, she had to get up at 4 a.m. [00:49:15] to make sure that it didn’t affect her husband and children to go through papers. [00:49:20] She was buying seven practices that day. You know.

Payvand Menhadji: At the.

Payman Langroudi: Same time. At the same time.

Payvand Menhadji: What [00:49:25] a lady.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, but my point is, is that okay, you could say. Oh, Anoushka’s got it all. Yeah. [00:49:30] But, yeah. What a nightmare. Exactly. Yeah, [00:49:35] yeah. If you want to look at it that.

Payvand Menhadji: Way to us. Yeah yeah yeah yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but the conversation needs to [00:49:40] be had. You know, it sounds so good and easy and.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, you’re totally. People actually [00:49:45] have said to me, I’ve had people come up to me in the hospital junior years. Hey, you’ve [00:49:50] got everything. How do you manage everything? How do you do this? How do you do that? And I’m [00:49:55] thinking, I’m so stressed. And, you know, I’ve ended up in this position. [00:50:00] I’m fortunate, but it’s not happened yet. It’s not easy. People [00:50:05] see the final product.

Payman Langroudi: That’s gone into.

Payvand Menhadji: It. Yeah. Bloody hell. Like so much work, people see the end [00:50:10] result and they think are accomplished. Whatever. But it’s hard work. [00:50:15] Nothing comes easy.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, look, if what we said was I lost hair. Really? We [00:50:20] said we said this, this particular journey. If you want to go backwards, you know, maybe from [00:50:25] when you were 15. Yeah. Yeah. That’s 18, 20 years ago.

Payvand Menhadji: It’s mad, isn’t [00:50:30] it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: 20 years you’ve been working at this and you’re just at the beginning. Yeah. You’re [00:50:35] the most junior specialist in the country right now. Absolutely. Yeah, exactly. [00:50:40] It’s huge man. Yeah. It’s huge. You know, people have to listen to that [00:50:45] conversation and say, yeah, this, this massive sacrifice in achievement. Yeah. [00:50:50] How do you get over this? I’m having real trouble with this notion of contentment [00:50:55] and progress.

Payvand Menhadji: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Especially from our [00:51:00] culture. Yeah. Like if you say if you’re someone I don’t know what it is in forest, but if someone comes [00:51:05] up to you and says how are you, how’s your business? And I say, I’m really content. It’s almost like, [00:51:10] what’s wrong with them? Like, why would he be content? Yeah. Like, it’s almost a bad thing to be. Yeah. [00:51:15] And I. And I get it right because it’s almost on a string. Contentment and progress can’t like, [00:51:20] you know, they’re in opposition to each other.

Payvand Menhadji: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Like, if you’re content, why would you progress?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:51:25] But you, as this ambitious person, and you seem very like. And like. I know your delivery [00:51:30] is. You seem like happy go lucky.

Payvand Menhadji: I’m so happy go lucky.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:51:35] have you squared this circle?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. You’re right. I am very happy. Go lucky. I think I’m, [00:51:40] I forget very easily, which is a good thing. You [00:51:45] know, like, I don’t dwell on the negativity and negative things for too long. [00:51:50]

Payman Langroudi: And the past.

Payvand Menhadji: Yes, exactly. I think that is a good skill I have, and I think that’s what keeps [00:51:55] me going. Like something will piss me off. Right. And yeah, I’ll be annoyed, but [00:52:00] not for long. And then I just think, whatever. I’m just upsetting myself, and I just. I move on easy [00:52:05] and I move on from people and problems very easily.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:52:10] don’t get emotionally attached to to negative stuff.

Payvand Menhadji: No, no, no, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:52:15] how about the power of now thing? I mean, are you are you in the future all the time? Is your is your head constantly thinking three [00:52:20] years ahead?

Payvand Menhadji: Maybe. You know, I’ve not thought about that. I do always [00:52:25] I’m a to do list person. I like having a list and [00:52:30] you’re going to laugh at me now. I have like a few like, life goals as well. Like [00:52:35] what I want to achieve. By what age? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Go on, go on. Share share share. 1 or 2 of those? [00:52:40]

Payvand Menhadji: No. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Well. Are you superstitious about them as well?

Payvand Menhadji: No, no, no. It’s just, [00:52:45] you know, you set yourself targets like.

Payman Langroudi: First kid at 34.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, that kind of [00:52:50] thing. Or like, a big mansion by this age. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What age were [00:52:55] you thinking?

Payvand Menhadji: That’s why I didn’t disclose.

Payman Langroudi: Which country did you think you’re going to be in to have this big mansion? [00:53:00]

Payvand Menhadji: No. I know you can only.

Payvand Menhadji: Dream, right? But I think [00:53:05] it’s.

Payvand Menhadji: Good to have some.

Payman Langroudi: Big mansions of dentists, generally outside London. But my [00:53:10] goodness, some dentists where they get themselves these gigantic pieces of land.

Payvand Menhadji: Just [00:53:15] give me, like, decades.

Payman Langroudi: But then sometimes £1 million buys a big thing.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. [00:53:20]

Payvand Menhadji: It depends. Exactly.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Big mansion. Sounds obvious. Anything [00:53:25] else? Anything like. Not so obvious.

Payvand Menhadji: Um. I mean, I’m fortunate, actually. I made sure [00:53:30] even during perio, I did a lot of travelling. I’ve done. Yeah, yeah. Every month, even if [00:53:35] it’s a little trip, at least it’s the weekend. Um, so I’m not, like, super thirsty [00:53:40] for travel. I’d love to have some longer holidays, but it’s okay. The main [00:53:45] ones are like, yeah, I wanted to start a family and it’s just the next step. [00:53:50] I want a big house basically.

Payman Langroudi: But honestly, my honest, I don’t want to give up any of the jobs [00:53:55] you’ve got. But my honest advice is three days is ample.

Payvand Menhadji: You think so?

Payman Langroudi: Three days is a lot.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, right.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:54:00] don’t know when you’re doing five days. Three days doesn’t.

Payvand Menhadji: Seem like.

Payman Langroudi: Three days is a lot. It’s a career.

Payvand Menhadji: Because [00:54:05] one day it’s just minimum admin, you know, letters, blah, blah, blah. But we got AI [00:54:10] now.

Payman Langroudi: No, but I’m saying three days is a lot of dentistry at a high level as well. You’re talking about, [00:54:15] you know, you want to be the kind of person who gets referred complicated stuff.

Payvand Menhadji: No you’re.

Payvand Menhadji: Right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:54:20] yeah. Surgeon.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve talked to some implant guys the night before. Big case. [00:54:25] They they go to bed early and.

Payvand Menhadji: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: This sort of move.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payvand Menhadji: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. Like, so [00:54:30] what I’m saying is three days of.

Payvand Menhadji: That.

Payvand Menhadji: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Is a lot. It’s like it’s like four days for [00:54:35] a standard but five days for someone.

Payvand Menhadji: More experienced than me. Yeah. I take your advice. You’re [00:54:40] right. I’m just thinking I can do it all right now, Victoria.

Payman Langroudi: And say you’re.

Payvand Menhadji: Leaving. Yeah. Okay. [00:54:45]

Payman Langroudi: So the practices you’re at Victoria [00:54:50] and Ariane.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which is the. What’s it called? Health.

Payvand Menhadji: That’s the health society. One place. Beautiful [00:54:55] place there. So lovely as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. The vibe. The vibe in that place.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. They’re [00:55:00] just cool. They’re cool, they’re cool.

Payman Langroudi: They can’t help themselves.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Go on.

Payvand Menhadji: Um. Kills. [00:55:05] Hap kills. Love that practice. Very cool. He’s just. He’s [00:55:10] just so relaxed. I look up to him a lot.

Payman Langroudi: He knows a lot as well.

Payvand Menhadji: He [00:55:15] is an exceptional dentist. I always knew he was good, but I didn’t realise until I started working. [00:55:20]

Payman Langroudi: Exceptional for many years now. You know, it’s like.

Payvand Menhadji: Such a he’s like a god. Yeah, I really like [00:55:25] him.

Payman Langroudi: And Jaz Gulati works there too.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, jazz has come back. So he worked there before and now he’s come back. Um, [00:55:30] I work in Q as well. Um, Jaguar. He went to [00:55:35] Liverpool, actually. Okay. Um, really nice practice. Private practice.

Payman Langroudi: Private [00:55:40] practice.

Payvand Menhadji: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Um. Yeah. Really happy at those. And then. [00:55:45]

Payman Langroudi: Serene in serene and Knightsbridge.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Like there there’s [00:55:50] lots of Arabs. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like people like tourism. Like like health tourism. [00:55:55] They’ve come to London for the for the dentistry.

Payvand Menhadji: Absolutely. And sapphires contacts really. [00:56:00] You know, she um I think she has like a bit of an international presence as well now, but [00:56:05] maybe in the Arab world, um, so people will come to her and then she’ll send [00:56:10] me her cases to stabilise or like pre or post ortho, which is really nice. [00:56:15] Um, you get like.

Payman Langroudi: Is that the most expensive one of the funds you go to?

Payvand Menhadji: No, I think [00:56:20] S1 Dental is the Westminster.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent.

Payvand Menhadji: It’s full of [00:56:25] like lords and ladies.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been there a long time.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, it’s 20 years plus and it’s right [00:56:30] by the Houses of Parliament. It’s beautiful. Yeah, I think that one’s the most expensive place. [00:56:35]

Payman Langroudi: So what does it cost to see you?

Payvand Menhadji: Um. A consult? Yeah, 250. [00:56:40] Yeah, for an.

Payman Langroudi: Hour. What does it cost for, like, mucogingival surgery? [00:56:45] Like, I know it depends on it.

Payvand Menhadji: Depends. Right. But, yeah, like.

Payman Langroudi: On average.

Payvand Menhadji: On [00:56:50] average, um, it totally varies. Like a grand to [00:56:55] two grand to three grand. You know, it depends how many teeth, how long it’s going to take.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:57:00] long does it take? I mean, isn’t it quite quick?

Payvand Menhadji: No, it depends what you’re doing. Right. And maybe I’m quite [00:57:05] slow still, but if you’re doing like an area from like 2 to 6, right. [00:57:10] That’s a lot. Yeah. And I would book two and a half, three hours for that.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:57:15] have you got to the point where you can tell how it’s going to like develop [00:57:20] mature as.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course you can tell before you start from what you said about the bone [00:57:25] levels.

Payvand Menhadji: Bone levels. It’s your suturing. It’s you’re suturing at the end is so key as well. Remember, [00:57:30] I’m just a baby specialist. I’m sure specialists will listen to me now and think. How many has she done? [00:57:35] Um, but I’m still learning a lot. But, yeah, the suturing will take me [00:57:40] the longest time. The easy part, and the most fun part is the cutting. Cutting. Five [00:57:45] minutes. Get that ready. Five minutes. Get the graph from the palette. The suturing at [00:57:50] the end is what.

Payman Langroudi: Makes the.

Payvand Menhadji: Different time. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly. [00:57:55] What about that? Just being very fine. I mean, it’s interesting you ask. Yeah. [00:58:00] What’s the key to Implantology. And he said.

Payvand Menhadji: Oh did he. Yeah. For me it’s I think [00:58:05] what.

Payman Langroudi: About.

Payvand Menhadji: The suturing? Suturing? Just like positioning everything perfectly. Not taking [00:58:10] too long as well because you don’t want to damage the tissues.

Payman Langroudi: Traumatising not.

Payvand Menhadji: Traumatising. [00:58:15] You’re exactly using your really small 6 or 7 zero sutures. It’s hard, [00:58:20] you know. Um. What else? Keeping the tissues moist. [00:58:25] Just. Just positioning. Just doing a good job. You know, when you get back to an upper [00:58:30] six. Access is tricky, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payvand Menhadji: Um, not having [00:58:35] tension on the flap. Primary closure, all these, like, you know, standard stuff. [00:58:40]

Payman Langroudi: You know what? I’ve noticed that the the difference between an expert and a not expert [00:58:45] is doing the basics absolutely right.

Payvand Menhadji: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: You know.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Not [00:58:50] missing.

Payvand Menhadji: A step.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Not not skipping any steps.

Payvand Menhadji: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s so interesting how a lot [00:58:55] of our profession is around hacks and and and missing steps. Like, [00:59:00] like almost. You’re almost like on on some of the forums. It’s about what’s the best way to miss this step.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. [00:59:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And whereas every time you go to an expert in any area, whichever and [00:59:10] you’re talking to them, you try and find out where’s the magic in this? Yeah. You’re so right. It’s not magic. It’s [00:59:15] do everything right without skipping any steps.

Payvand Menhadji: Exactly. Every [00:59:20] time you do it. Yeah. So it becomes the norm, and you just. It’s like muscle memory, [00:59:25] right? Yeah. You’re so right.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, it’s really good from the manufacturer perspective. Yeah. You’d [00:59:30] be amazed how few people read the instructions.

Payvand Menhadji: I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, you’d be amazed. [00:59:35] I’d say one 5% might read instructions.

Payvand Menhadji: I’m just thinking of enlighten [00:59:40] right now. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, sometimes the instructions are very specific. Very, very [00:59:45] specific. Like dry and wet and then dry again. You know, something like that. Yeah. And, you know, some [00:59:50] chemist has gone through like hell to figure out, you know, this bioactive glass, the way [00:59:55] this works. Yeah, yeah. You’re going to have to, like, you know, first dry it, then apply it, then leave it for [01:00:00] 30s. And then. Very rarely does anyone read that.

Payvand Menhadji: Why are we [01:00:05] like that? We’re lazy. We’re humans.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. By the way, I’m just saying, if I buy some thing, [01:00:10] I never read the instructions. Yeah, some speaker or something. Yeah, I [01:00:15] never read it, but it’s one of the reasons why we do like online training.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. [01:00:20]

Payman Langroudi: You know, like an actual session of training.

Payvand Menhadji: Exactly. Even with all this baby stuff, [01:00:25] you know, I’m. I can’t be bothered to sit down and read a book, but whereas, you know, these [01:00:30] NCT classes when someone’s telling me do this. That’s how I learned. Yeah, [01:00:35] I think that’s really important, actually. It makes it more interactive.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind if I say [01:00:40] errors?

Payvand Menhadji: Administrative errors. Cool. Yeah. [01:00:45] There was a period I was, I think, hands up. At the hospital, [01:00:50] I was quite lazy with my notes because you think you’re protected [01:00:55] as well in the hospital. You’ve got this, like.

Payman Langroudi: Cottonwool around you. Yeah, yeah.

Payvand Menhadji: But, [01:01:00] you know, things do get checked. And, you know, I would get flagged up. So, um, [01:01:05] now I’ve got some good solid templates, etc.. Um, I need to [01:01:10] get I want to use Dental tco. Do you use anything like that? [01:01:15]

Payman Langroudi: I don’t practice.

Payvand Menhadji: Oh, yeah. I didn’t know that, actually.

Payman Langroudi: I stopped 2012.

Payvand Menhadji: Fair [01:01:20] enough. You don’t need to know. Do you miss it?

Payman Langroudi: I miss people.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, but [01:01:25] you’ve got all this, you know, you’ve got the Dental Leaders podcast.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s one of the reasons I [01:01:30] do it.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: But, um. Yeah. No, but I know what you’re talking about. So something [01:01:35] like Dental. There’s a few of them is like karaoke.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, exactly. So I think you need to spend, [01:01:40] like, a good, solid day to learn it, and then you can use it, but, um. [01:01:45] Yeah. Notes. I’m, I’m, I’m not good on. So that’s my biggest kind [01:01:50] of error in terms of clinical error.

Payman Langroudi: What happened? What happened? You didn’t.

Payvand Menhadji: Oh, nothing [01:01:55] really. You just kind of.

Payman Langroudi: What was the event?

Payvand Menhadji: Um, you know, you just get a slap on the wrist and, [01:02:00] like.

Payman Langroudi: Your your boss.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Consultants. Like, for example, I was about to start [01:02:05] a surgery. I’ll never forget this. Actually about to start surgery. And, [01:02:10] um, because we got a new system. It’s called epic on the hospital, and [01:02:15] I just wasn’t getting the hang of it. I’m not very. I can do dentistry. I’m not good at computers. So [01:02:20] I’d done the consent form. Hand on heart. I’d done it. Patient was. Their patient was vouching [01:02:25] for me. Like, I know what I’m doing, I signed something last week. She told me [01:02:30] all the risks the consultants like, tell me the risks. And he’s like pain, bleeding, swelling, [01:02:35] infection. And, um, I just couldn’t find it on this bloody computer. [01:02:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it was just stuff like that I’d always get in trouble for, um, [01:02:45] you fill out, then you have to fill out another form, like a date form, and [01:02:50] then just keep saying sorry.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’m not gonna accept it. Sorry. I’m not gonna [01:02:55] accept that as your error. I like it, but not a lot.

Payvand Menhadji: Okay? [01:03:00] I haven’t had any major cock ups.

Payman Langroudi: There must have been other errors.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, I know, and [01:03:05] I’ve been thinking about it. I wish I had something really juicy to tell you. Like I made a patient bleed [01:03:10] to death, but I haven’t. No. Um. I [01:03:15] mean, my biggest fear. It’s not happened [01:03:20] to me. I hope it never happens to me. But you hear of people harvesting the graft from the palate [01:03:25] and then the nurse suctions it up.

Payman Langroudi: And they lose.

Payvand Menhadji: It and they lose it. And, [01:03:30] you know.

Payman Langroudi: Are you supposed to do that point?

Payvand Menhadji: Well, you you’re meant to say sorry and pray that you [01:03:35] can take it from the other side and the patient will let you. But it’s so sore. So then [01:03:40] the whole mouth is. So every time I’m working with anyone, I’m like, look, okay, [01:03:45] but we have to communicate properly.

Payman Langroudi: Complaint. One complaint in your career.

Payvand Menhadji: Hand on heart, I haven’t.

Payman Langroudi: Really. [01:03:50]

Payvand Menhadji: Let’s not jinx it.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Payvand Menhadji: I want to say people like me. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s amazing [01:03:55] man. Yeah, that’s. How many years have you been a dentist?

Payvand Menhadji: Since 2018. Seven. [01:04:00]

Payman Langroudi: That’s amazing man. Not a single complaint. All right.

Payvand Menhadji: I swear to God.

Payman Langroudi: Your [01:04:05] most difficult patient.

Payvand Menhadji: Difficult patient? It’s the ones I mean. I kind of [01:04:10] like it as well. They quiz me so much. So just the other. Just [01:04:15] the other week, I had somebody, um. You know, I wanted to take a tooth out. It was [01:04:20] what we call hopeless prognosis. No matter what kind of perio treatment we do, This tooth needs [01:04:25] to come out. And she was saying to me, look, I get that, but I don’t want to have a [01:04:30] foreign body placed in me like an implant. And then we talked about bridges [01:04:35] for ages, implants for ages, and then the whole consult I [01:04:40] hour. I didn’t even look in her mouth. We were just speaking about this situation. [01:04:45] And, you know, she was very articulate, very intelligent, and she wanted me to like [01:04:50] quote, papers and.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. And my nurse is looking at me like, are you okay? [01:04:55] You know, are you tired? And then you finish and you just think I felt [01:05:00] very challenged. But luckily, you know, patients on board. But they’re the difficult patients [01:05:05] for me, all the questioning, it’s exhausting.

Payman Langroudi: And American.

Payvand Menhadji: She [01:05:10] was English actually.

Payman Langroudi: I know, I know dentist. Yeah. Who? Um, [01:05:15] the patient got rejected by the Eastman mid treatment because [01:05:20] he was so difficult.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And she took him on. Really? [01:05:25] Yeah. And, uh, the, you know, he wanted pulse oximeter on [01:05:30] his hand throughout treatment and all sorts of suctions all over the place [01:05:35] because of the amalgam. Uh, yeah. Yeah. And, uh, I think [01:05:40] she charged him. I don’t want to get it wrong, but it was. It was [01:05:45] in the £1,500 for a mo. Right. And and it took [01:05:50] all day.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payvand Menhadji: I mean, that’s the thing with a difficult patient as well, [01:05:55] right? You just kind of up your fee. And so if.

Payman Langroudi: She said it wasn’t worth it, by.

Payvand Menhadji: The way.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:06:00] she said it was a terrible day. Yeah.

Payvand Menhadji: Oh, my God, that is awful. But [01:06:05] that that is a, um, a trick that somebody had told me. You know, if you don’t want to see the patient [01:06:10] up your fee and then if you are seeing them, at least you’re getting rewarded for it. [01:06:15] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But in that situation, when someone’s saying, quote me a paper, what are you saying?

Payvand Menhadji: Well, [01:06:20] luckily, you know, I’ve just finished my finals, so. Yeah. Yeah. So everything’s fresh at the moment. But you [01:06:25] know me in a few years time. Well, I’ll be hopefully quoting those old papers, [01:06:30] but it’s hard to keep up.

Payman Langroudi: And I think, you know, a couple of things, a couple of things that young dentists need to [01:06:35] be aware of that they’re not so much, in my experience, is that it’s okay to say, I don’t know.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, [01:06:40] yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: When you’re young, you feel like if you say that you’re going to be found out. [01:06:45]

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, you’re right. But it’s this whole, like, specialist hat now. Like as a baby specialist, people [01:06:50] are still paying the big bucks to see you and for the treatment, so. [01:06:55]

Payman Langroudi: I know, but look, I, I’ve had a bunch of people. I’m paying too much money for their, like, [01:07:00] very specialist legal knowledge for the sake of the argument. Yeah, yeah. And [01:07:05] when I asked a question, the guy says, I don’t know. My respect goes up for him. Not [01:07:10] down.

Payvand Menhadji: At least he’s not lying.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. This is not making it up on the spot.

Payvand Menhadji: You know, it’s funny you say [01:07:15] that because this same patient, she then started talking about amalgam. And that’s not my [01:07:20] expertise. I can blag a little bit. But I did actually say, I don’t know because she [01:07:25] was asking more questions and we moved on, which was good.

Payman Langroudi: I respect for that. For that professional goes up first. [01:07:30] Yeah. Because. Because he knows what he doesn’t know. Yeah, exactly. You’re not.

Payvand Menhadji: Bullshitting [01:07:35] the.

Payman Langroudi: Patient. Bullshitting. Yeah, yeah. Um, but then then and I [01:07:40] spoke to Andrew Darwin about this as well. The telling the patient the things that can [01:07:45] go wrong. Yeah. In a again, young dentists think if I do [01:07:50] that, it’s going to put the patient off me being their their dentist.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Whereas [01:07:55] from the patient perspective again you think at least the guy knows what could [01:08:00] go wrong.

Payvand Menhadji: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And yeah, as clinicians we’ve been in situations where I’ve been in situations [01:08:05] where family members about to have a ten hour operation.

Payvand Menhadji: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s important that we [01:08:10] know what could go wrong.

Payvand Menhadji: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: In that situation. You don’t want just reassurance that everything’s going to be all [01:08:15] right.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. And I think, you know, with grafting, Going back to grafting, I always [01:08:20] tell them, like, you know, you over stress, the pain, you don’t know how they’re [01:08:25] going to respond. But I’m like.

Payman Langroudi: Under-promise kind of thing.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, exactly. I’m like, it’s going to hurt so much. [01:08:30] You know? I’m really sorry. You’re going to hate me on day 4 or 5. Then we’ll be friends again in [01:08:35] two weeks. But I and then they come back and they’re like, it really wasn’t that bad. But, you know, I really stress [01:08:40] that you’re going to have so much pain because some people do. Um, but I make sure that’s when my, um, [01:08:45] my letters are really good as well with, you know, all the risks. You have to do it right. [01:08:50]

Payman Langroudi: As a perio trainee, you’ve had all the restorative training as well. So [01:08:55] is part of that course doing like full mouth rehabs and that sort of thing or [01:09:00] doesn’t it get.

Payvand Menhadji: No. Unfortunately not. We kind of work with our colleagues. So [01:09:05] yeah. Together. Together. Yeah. Like we all do the crown lengthening but they’ll do all the like the [01:09:10] crowns, bridges, etc.. Um, we can plan together, but more [01:09:15] of the full mouth rehabs, it’s more prosto.

Payman Langroudi: And so are you doing much drilling of teeth at all?

Payvand Menhadji: No [01:09:20] no, no. I was, but now I’m not. It’s just it’s just. Yeah, exactly. [01:09:25] Just cutting and stitching. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What are [01:09:30] you very bad at?

Payvand Menhadji: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Often notes.

Payvand Menhadji: Saying [01:09:35] no.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Payvand Menhadji: People pleaser. I’m a people pleaser. That’s why I’ve got so many jobs. [01:09:40] I hate letting people down. That’s my. [01:09:45] That’s my downfall. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a terrible people pleasing. It’s a wonderful person [01:09:50] to be around.

Payvand Menhadji: I’m getting better at it. But that, truthfully, that [01:09:55] is. Yeah. I’m a people pleaser.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a wonderful person to be around, isn’t it? Everyone thinks, oh, this person is so amazing. [01:10:00]

Payvand Menhadji: Happy go lucky.

Payman Langroudi: So amazing. You know, like, if you’re saying yes to everything. Yeah. Saying yes [01:10:05] to everything your parents are saying. Yes. Everything. Your husband saying yes. Everything your kids saying.

Payvand Menhadji: Then you burn out.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yes. To everything. [01:10:10] Your work saying. Yeah. And the only thing you’re not taking care of is yourself.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. That’s me. [01:10:15]

Payman Langroudi: It’s great to be around that person. Yeah, people put that person on a pedestal, right?

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. [01:10:20]

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Payvand Menhadji: And it’s something always gives, right? So for ages, I have lots [01:10:25] of non Dental friends that keep me sane, basically. And they were just like, hey, like, we’ve not [01:10:30] seen you in ages. You know, we’re not a priority anymore. All these kind of things. And I’m just thinking, [01:10:35] you bastards, I’m just trying to survive. Um, but [01:10:40] yeah, I think saying no, um, I need to work on it. I’m [01:10:45] aware of it, though. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: A couple of quick round things.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What comes [01:10:50] to your mind if I say, what’s the best lecture you’ve been to?

Payvand Menhadji: So we were talking [01:10:55] about this, um, the Europa conferences. I like the Glastonbury of Perio, and [01:11:00] they really are though. And it’s every three years, [01:11:05] it’s like 10,000 people and 10,000. Oh it’s massive.

Payman Langroudi: How many [01:11:10] screens, how many, how many stages?

Payvand Menhadji: So yeah, maybe like 3 or 4 big stages at [01:11:15] the same time, and then loads of little rooms as well. It’s it’s it’s huge.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:11:20] didn’t I had no idea.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah yeah yeah it’s massive. It’s so fun. And it’s like [01:11:25] all the big names of Perrier.

Payman Langroudi: Oh yeah. If it’s every three years, it’s like.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The [01:11:30] World Cup final.

Payvand Menhadji: Exactly. And everyone’s there and you know, the meals [01:11:35] out, the drinks. So much fun. Um, the best speaker I’ve seen speak. [01:11:40] I think it changes all the time, but it’s the. Kelly. Have you heard of him? Giovanni? Kelly? [01:11:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payvand Menhadji: He’s he’s a character. He’s like the mucogingival God or [01:11:50] self proclaimed. But he is self proclaimed. I hope he’s not listening. Um, but he, [01:11:55] um, he’s just such a personality.

Payman Langroudi: Like a great.

Payvand Menhadji: Man. Yeah. I mean, the Italians in [01:12:00] period, full stop. But he’s he always wears a scarf. We caught him like vaping on stage [01:12:05] once. Vaping in a perio conference. Can you imagine? But, you [01:12:10] know, it’s just it’s iconic. And it’s just the [01:12:15] way he talks. Like, he’ll he’ll he’ll speak really quietly and then he’ll start shouting. And [01:12:20] he wakes you up and he’s come up with so many of the techniques that we use today. Oh, really? So I [01:12:25] think yeah, he’s like every time I see him, he’s quite special for me.

Payman Langroudi: Like [01:12:30] a, like a hero worship thing.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s nice. Nice. When you start meeting your [01:12:35] heroes, it’s a nice thing. Yeah, it can be. It can be nice. Um, what about. What about if I said to you, what’s your most [01:12:40] important sort of resource like call it. It could be a book. It could be a Instagram [01:12:45] page. It could be a website.

Payvand Menhadji: Um, there’s a specialist oral [01:12:50] surgeon, Bijan Shokoohi. No, he is an amazing [01:12:55] implant and oral surgeon. And he’s.

Payman Langroudi: In the US.

Payvand Menhadji: In the UK, and he’s [01:13:00] made an Instagram fairly recently, maybe in the past six months or so. And it’s taken off. [01:13:05] It’s so educational.

Payman Langroudi: What’s it.

Payvand Menhadji: Called? Um, it’s just his name. Yeah. Doctor Bijan [01:13:10] Shokoohi. I think I’m pronouncing his name right. It’s so good. Really? [01:13:15] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll check it out.

Payvand Menhadji: He taught me it, guys, to take out teeth. Um, him and his [01:13:20] wife, actually. But his page, I’ll share it with you. Is. Is phenomenal. And I don’t think many [01:13:25] people know about it, but, I mean, he’s getting traction now, but it’s so [01:13:30] good. Excellent. That’s the best page. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Final questions. Fantasy [01:13:35] dinner party. Three guests, dead [01:13:40] or alive. Who are you having?

Payvand Menhadji: Um. I [01:13:45] so I’d want, like, um. So I’m really into, like, [01:13:50] house music.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Payvand Menhadji: Me too. Nice. So, like, I go to Ibiza every year, that kind [01:13:55] of thing. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Not any more.

Payvand Menhadji: And I just.

Payman Langroudi: I.

Payvand Menhadji: Went pregnant. My baby went [01:14:00] to a club. Excellent. Um. And I think. Yeah. Don’t [01:14:05] don’t ask me which DJ, but it would be cool to have like, a bunch of them, like high flying [01:14:10] deejays together in a room, having a chat with them. Um, also, maybe [01:14:15] like the.

Payman Langroudi: Old DJ yourself.

Payvand Menhadji: I’m not very good. I’m not like Victoria. I have, I have, I have decks, [01:14:20] but really? Yeah. Yeah, it’s actually a maternity leave project.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent, excellent, [01:14:25] excellent.

Payvand Menhadji: Um, but also. So that’s like the fun side. I’d [01:14:30] love to like. I would have loved to have meet the Shah of Iran. Yeah, that would be quite cool. Have [01:14:35] a chat.

Payman Langroudi: See, it’s not the first time he’s come up.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. Really? Yeah. What [01:14:40] the hell happened, man? You know, um. And. Yeah, maybe, [01:14:45] like my granddad, I never met. Something like that. Oh, yeah?

Payman Langroudi: Who’s that? Your dad’s dad. [01:14:50]

Payvand Menhadji: Dad’s dad? Yeah. He died giving blood, actually.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, he died way before you were born. [01:14:55]

Payvand Menhadji: Before I was born. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I.

Payvand Menhadji: See. Sounds like a cool guy. Yeah? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Why? What stories [01:15:00] have you heard about him?

Payvand Menhadji: Just like, you know, because I see myself in [01:15:05] my dad’s personality, and my dad always says he was like his dad. And I just it would [01:15:10] be cool to see, like where it came from, you know, the craziness.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t come across [01:15:15] as crazy to me, man. That’s good. All right, final question. Is [01:15:20] it like a deathbed question?

Payvand Menhadji: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: It’s weird for someone as young as you, but you [01:15:25] had to give three pieces of advice.

Payvand Menhadji: Three pieces of advice? Um, [01:15:30] don’t hold grudges. We were talking about this. Get over the negative [01:15:35] things really easily. Just don’t. Don’t care about things that don’t actually matter. [01:15:40] Like, if it won’t matter tomorrow, who cares? Um. So, yeah, try not to be too emotional [01:15:45] as well. Um, and just enjoy life. She [01:15:50] says working really hard. But yeah, it’s important.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got a big smile on your face the whole time.

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. [01:15:55] I have fun doing everything. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I really hope that just keeps on going. Right. [01:16:00] I was talking to my mom about this, and she was saying life in the end breaks. You know, I [01:16:05] was saying to my mom, why, why do you look so sad? Yeah. Yesterday I was like, why do [01:16:10] you say what’s wrong? And she said, life in the end breaks you. And she’s.

Payvand Menhadji: Tired. Hungry.

Payman Langroudi: Like [01:16:15] maybe it does. Maybe it does. Maybe, you know, like you’re young, right? [01:16:20]

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah. You’re right.

Payman Langroudi: But I hope it doesn’t. That’s that’s that’s [01:16:25] right. How would you like to be remembered?

Payvand Menhadji: I want to be remembered as [01:16:30] a really professional, talented specialist, [01:16:35] but, like, also very humble and just, you know, very approachable. And I [01:16:40] never want to let anything get to my head, you know what I mean? Like, no ego. That’s [01:16:45] how I want to be remembered.

Payman Langroudi: Difficult though difficult, though, because once you become this very talented, [01:16:50] the plaudits come in, right? Yeah. And, you know.

Payvand Menhadji: I [01:16:55] hope to never change. Like who I.

Payman Langroudi: Am, Giovanni. You know, like.

Payvand Menhadji: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: People start hero worshipping you. [01:17:00]

Payvand Menhadji: Yeah, that’s true, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: It’s going to be if you’re, if you’re that that talented. But but you’re [01:17:05] right. That pulling off, you know, dancing on that needle.

Payvand Menhadji: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Is beautiful.

Payvand Menhadji: Exactly. [01:17:10] That’s what I would aim for. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive pleasure. Thank you. Thank you so much [01:17:15] for coming in.

Payvand Menhadji: Thank you so.

Payman Langroudi: Much. 30 weeks pregnant. Yeah. Well done. Thank you. Thank [01:17:20] you.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [01:17:25] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:17:30] Your hosts, Payman Langroudi [01:17:35] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got [01:17:40] this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for [01:17:45] actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because [01:17:50] I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [01:17:55] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out [01:18:00] of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.