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[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. [00:00:35] The podcast where you get to go one on one with [00:00:40] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:50] gives me great pleasure to welcome Andy Acton back onto the podcast. Andy [00:00:55] is one of the originals in Dental business. So head off. [00:01:00] Frank Taylor associates with his partner Chris and serial entrepreneur. Really? So apart [00:01:05] from practice sales and purchases, um, you guys have FTA law, FTA [00:01:10] careers or is it recruitment, FTA media, FTA wealth? [00:01:15]

Andy Acton: We’ve actually jettisoned some of them over the years. Have you have you have you? Yeah. So FTA law, we, um, [00:01:20] we sold out to the law partners a few years ago. Um, yeah, great experience. [00:01:25] Um, FTA recruitment, um, during Covid, everybody wanted to do it themselves, [00:01:30] which they were welcome to.

Payman Langroudi: So, so what’s the list now?

Andy Acton: So we’ve got Frank Chen associates, which values and sales Dental [00:01:35] practices very focussed on that. Fta finance commercial finance broker arranges money from [00:01:40] £1000 to £10 million for anybody who wants to do FTA media, which [00:01:45] is primarily our in-house media team, but also available to clients as well. Fta wealth, which [00:01:50] is insurance protections, investments for dentists, whether they’re owners or associates. [00:01:55] And one of our most recent ventures is the Principals Club, which is a members only club [00:02:00] purely for um principals, independent practice owners, giving them a community of somewhere [00:02:05] to go. So yeah, I’ve got a few bits on keeping busy.

Payman Langroudi: So I want to go with it today if [00:02:10] it’s okay with you is firstly like, where are we at market [00:02:15] market snapshot. Um, and I know for anyone listening, we’re in December [00:02:20] 2025. So if you’re listening to this in four years time, it will be a very different market. But where [00:02:25] are we at right now? That one, I want to do that piece. And then the other piece I want to do is, you know, you’ve been around [00:02:30] long enough to see the sort of the life cycle of an owner. And, you know, [00:02:35] from all the way from, should I start with, should I open a practice? Should I start with a squat [00:02:40] or an existing. The early, the teething pains, the surprises, the recruitment, the scaling [00:02:45] growth. And then on the other end of it, I want to sell my practice and how long it takes for that [00:02:50] cycle in general. And something that you’ve developed that I actually filled out [00:02:55] the, the form, which was the fatigue.

Andy Acton: I saw it come through. We must have [00:03:00] a separate conversation about that. I didn’t like your score.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Gave me a 34%. Saw your business. But. [00:03:05] Yeah, but but you’ve seen that. You’ve seen fatigue in owners and what that [00:03:10] looks like. So should we just start with that? So where are we? Market snapshot.

Andy Acton: Market conditions are good. Um, [00:03:15] we’ve got a still a huge demand [00:03:20] to buy dental practices, which is quite surprising because lots of us pick up our [00:03:25] sentiment, confidence from social media. And there’s a lot of moaning and groaning about [00:03:30] where things are at. But I see it from the crude commercial end of [00:03:35] things. Yeah. And we put a practice to the market. There’s still a lot of people interested. So in terms of quantification, [00:03:40] we’ve got about 7500 people registered with Frank and associates [00:03:45] wanting to buy a dental practice now. Let’s Pareto was a cool dude [00:03:50] and he got it right. 8020 works. But even if we roll that down to 1500 people. [00:03:55] That’s more than the practices that are going to get sold in any given calendar year. So nobody [00:04:00] has an exact number, but it’s probably somewhere around 5 to 600 practices a year. Chain chains. So [00:04:05] we’ve kind of got A3X of, of, of trimmed numbers of buyers that want to buy practices. [00:04:10] So the.

Payman Langroudi: The, some of them will do a squat, right?

Andy Acton: They will, but that’s a, that’s [00:04:15] a pretty small number.

Payman Langroudi: Is.

Andy Acton: It? Yeah. Relative to the people who buy practices, [00:04:20] the noise and the chatter around squats is enormous.

Payman Langroudi: It’s exciting.

Andy Acton: Oh [00:04:25] it’s fun. It’s fun. Lots of things in life sound fun, but doing them isn’t quite as much fun as you think. It’s it’s [00:04:30] pretty tough work. So there’s a lot of talk about that. But most people will buy an established practice. [00:04:35] The supplier practices come to the market, never meets demand. So there’s always [00:04:40] a shortage of practice coming to the market relative to people who want to buy. And I think that’s where [00:04:45] the squat market fits quite nicely, because you get people who get frustrated, they can’t find the practice [00:04:50] they want. And on finding the practice you want. You should have a shopping list of things you want. [00:04:55] You should have. Ten things you want, but also have the wisdom to understand that you’re not going to find [00:05:00] a practice that meets those ten things. If you can put a tick in three, four, five boxes. [00:05:05] Definitely consider it because if you’re looking for that perfect practice, it doesn’t exist. And I [00:05:10] think for those people, sometimes a squat can can be a way to go, but you need a [00:05:15] different set of skills that don’t suit all dentists. So there’s that side of [00:05:20] things. But the last component where the market’s at the banks are still loving dentists at [00:05:25] the moment. There was a period about 18 months, two years ago where the banks were just [00:05:30] a little bit cold. A couple had kind of tightened up their policies. Whereas now we’re in a we’re [00:05:35] in a world where there’s.

Payman Langroudi: They’re looking for low risk.

Andy Acton: Yeah, there’s 12 to 14 [00:05:40] hungry banks. Lots of them have fairly recently revised their credit policies. So they’re more willing to [00:05:45] lend to dentists. And banks only make money by taking deposits or lending money. So they have [00:05:50] to lend a lot of money. And so healthcare has always been a green light sector. And within healthcare, [00:05:55] dentists are loved because typically a dental practice does not go bust. [00:06:00] If there’s a problem with a dental practice, normally it’s money being drawn out of the dental [00:06:05] business and put into something outside of the dental practice, and that’s where the problems come. So [00:06:10] we got the banks loving the market. We’ve got sellers still wanting to sell and an oversupply [00:06:15] of buyers. And that puts the the independent market in a in a very, very good [00:06:20] situation.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But I mean, if we’re talking the price, [00:06:25] price, peak price, have we reached peak price? Because I suspect obviously price is, is um, [00:06:30] affected by supply and demand as you say, by lending, it is affected [00:06:35] by what are the corporates doing as well. Yeah. So as far as price is the price now [00:06:40] lower than it was a year ago, two years ago.

Andy Acton: For most practices. Yeah. So a, a [00:06:45] value gets represented as a as a multiple and it’s a multiple of the underlying [00:06:50] profit in that practice. So everybody’s very keen to know what what the multiple is. Yeah. And I’d say [00:06:55] that for many practices, the multiples come down by about 0.1, 0.2 something [00:07:00] in that order. It’s not it’s not huge. And remember that during this time [00:07:05] practice performance has improved as well. So in pound notes in your pocket, [00:07:10] many practice owners aren’t feeling any difference because their practice performance is improved. Um [00:07:15] the value has eased back just slightly. Um, I think buyers are being slightly more [00:07:20] choosy. I think where people would have taken on a practice that, um, was perhaps in difficulty [00:07:25] and they’d be prepared to, to help it recover. They’re now looking for something that’s in really good [00:07:30] shape unless you’re a more experienced operator.

Payman Langroudi: Give me some. You know, if someone’s looking [00:07:35] to buy a practice, sometimes it’s their first practice. They’re doing it because of control [00:07:40] or whatever. And then people come to you with a list of things that they want for that [00:07:45] practice. Now, outside of, you know, I’m not as interested in sort of location, [00:07:50] that sort of thing. I’m much more interested in what kind of things are they trying to exploit. [00:07:55] So for instance, we had a dialogue. He said, I’m looking for a practice that isn’t doing implantology [00:08:00] because I’m an implantologist. So give me some other use cases. Some of the things people say to you. I mean, are people after [00:08:05] NHS practices that aren’t exploiting private haven’t exploited private enough?

Andy Acton: That’s that’s [00:08:10] quite a large part of it is it? Um, and I don’t think that the, the [00:08:15] thinking behind the exploitation is as strong as the driver just to [00:08:20] um, have control.

Payman Langroudi: Yes, but, but I want to know about the business things that people.

Andy Acton: Say [00:08:25] to you. I think the control is the biggest thing, of course. And then I think it is people. So ideal [00:08:30] is a great example. We have a number of people who have specialist skills and they look at practice who are doing general [00:08:35] dentistry and they say, right, I could go in and I could increase the value of that practice. And [00:08:40] one of the things when we value a practice we look at is the sort of data they [00:08:45] deliver and how much is he’s referred out. So quite often you might have a practice that’s doing general dentistry, [00:08:50] and they might be referring out.

Payman Langroudi: And.

Andy Acton: They might have 1 or 2 implants a month. [00:08:55] Yeah, yeah. So if you’re an implantologist and you go, okay, so you could be referring out 50, £60,000 [00:09:00] of treatment a year. And that’s because it’s being referred out. It’s probably [00:09:05] not being it’s they’re not seeking that business. If somebody asks for it or it happens to form part of a treatment [00:09:10] plan, it gets referred out. So imagine if you had an in-house person who could deliver that, and that [00:09:15] became part of your, um, general conversation and part of your marketing plan. You could probably [00:09:20] forex that number. So those are very interesting ones. People are also interested in practices [00:09:25] where there’s growth potential as well. So these are where you’ve got 2 or 3 surgeries. It’s in a larger [00:09:30] building.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, as in building expansion?

Andy Acton: Yes. As in the physical space where they [00:09:35] look to expand it there. Um, so that that’s.

Payman Langroudi: A, that’s a big.

Andy Acton: One. That’s another angle where people, [00:09:40] whether it’s interesting, whether they actually ever exploit it or not, I don’t know. Um. [00:09:45]

Payman Langroudi: You know, my advice for people going for second practice is before you do that, exploit [00:09:50] the first one completely. But, you know, people understand it as well because you’ve [00:09:55] got something in your head that says, hey, why can’t I own 100? Yeah. And you kind of got to go from 1 to 2 before [00:10:00] you can go anywhere else. And so you that vanity metric of the second one, [00:10:05] then you almost lose sight of the first one could be open 8 to 8, seven days a week and [00:10:10] extra rooms added that that itself could be worth more than the two put together.

Andy Acton: One [00:10:15] of the things we look at is occupancy levels. So that’s kind of you’ve got a four surgery practice. [00:10:20] Um, by my measurement, that should be open six days a week for [00:10:25] surgery. So there should be 24 days of dentistry being delivered across that practice. We very [00:10:30] often see in the 12, 14, 15 days. So to your [00:10:35] point about maximising what you’ve got, most people move on way more [00:10:40] quickly to the idea of opening or buying a second before they max out what they’ve got. [00:10:45] And the max out. What you’ve got is important because one, you’re going to sweat that asset [00:10:50] more efficiently. But also you’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Half the number of people like because it’s all in [00:10:55] one site. Yeah.

Andy Acton: And just the logistics of having two different sites. Yeah. Um, it’s harder because [00:11:00] inevitably you always end up in the wrong place. You’re at practice when there’s a problem in practice being and [00:11:05] vice versa. So, so that’s challenging. But also you get, you get other things that come [00:11:10] your way. So if you’ve got to practice at not optimised and not working a really efficient level, [00:11:15] things slip through and it doesn’t really matter if you’re working at a chair occupancy of of 80, [00:11:20] 85% plus you need a really well oiled machine. Imagine if you then [00:11:25] applied those systems, processes and protocols into your second practice. You get another [00:11:30] really well-oiled machine. If you haven’t gone through that process in your first one, you’re going to end up two practices [00:11:35] that are a bit clunky. So it’s not just about optimising it to [00:11:40] to grow more. You’re going to learn things on that first site. So when you go to your second site, [00:11:45] it’s going to be so much easier. But but you’re right. You know, and I think [00:11:50] this happens in, in the corporate world as well. You know, you go to Dental events. And one of the common questions is how [00:11:55] many practices you got now? Yeah. Like that’s a measurement of, of, of success. Yeah, yeah. But from [00:12:00] the numbers that I see very often when you get to ten, 12 practices above, there’s two, three, [00:12:05] four practices that are absolutely causing you pain. They should not be in your portfolio. [00:12:10] They’re costing you money and time and stress. But because we measure [00:12:15] on how many practices you’ve got, no one’s got the cojones to do what they should really do, [00:12:20] which is review their portfolio and move away. Those ones that aren’t performing really well, because [00:12:25] quite often a practising corporate ownership might not perform very well. But you flip that into [00:12:30] independent ownership and it flies because the owner is going to work in there and [00:12:35] they’re going to probably deliver.

Payman Langroudi: Changes the finances altogether.

Andy Acton: They start delivering 300 [00:12:40] 350,000 of dentistry themselves. So the associated costs absolutely [00:12:45] collapse. All that profit goes into the business. Sure. Which Joan is going to need to draw for their own lifestyle. [00:12:50] But suddenly you’ve got a resident principal in that practice and everything starts to go [00:12:55] up a notch. So like I say, it frustrates me a bit on the corporate side that it’s about they [00:13:00] measure the number of practices. But actually I think there’s a, there’s another page to that same [00:13:05] book, which is which are the ones that are causing us pain.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And then also, I’m quite interested [00:13:10] in the notion of if there’s one practice for sale and you’ve got a corporate bidding or several [00:13:15] corporates bidding on on one end and then independence on the other, the [00:13:20] advantage that independents have got over corporates, insomuch as [00:13:25] we pretty much know what the corporates, different corporates, different policies are when they come to [00:13:30] take a practice over. And the vast majority of them are going to tie in the principal, [00:13:35] whereas an independent can be much more flexible. And if he sees one, that’s correct, he [00:13:40] can work outside of those sort of guardrails that corporates tend to have to be fixed to. [00:13:45] And the best practices can be, you know, snapped up by independents. Is that is that correct?

Andy Acton: 100%, [00:13:50] 100%. And in that case, so to kind of put it into a discussion of what that deal looks [00:13:55] like, if a corporate was buying a practice, they would typically pay something between [00:14:00] 55 and 70% upfront. The rest would be deferred over 3 to 5 year period, [00:14:05] and the seller would be tied in to some performance metrics to get their deferred [00:14:10] consideration. So that’s not an unusual looking corporate deal.

Payman Langroudi: And how often do they not hit them? [00:14:15] Is it often?

Andy Acton: To be fair, they they they hit them most of the time. Do they? [00:14:20] Um, and where they don’t quite often it’s, it’s a disagreement of some sort between [00:14:25] the corporate and the, the seller. Mhm. Um, the, this [00:14:30] notion that the corporates don’t want to pay the deferred consideration, it doesn’t make much sense. [00:14:35] So let’s say that they’ve paid £2 million for a practice and the buyer has got, you know, [00:14:40] 1.2, £1.3 million up front and there’s, you know, seven, 800,000 deferred. They have [00:14:45] still paid 1.2, 1.3 million. So to try to creatively damage a business, [00:14:50] to not pay the deferred when you’ve already paid out 1.2, 1.3 million, it [00:14:55] doesn’t really make much sense. So this this whole notion that I’m going to get screwed over, they’re not going to pay it. [00:15:00] It it doesn’t commercially. I don’t know why you pay over. Yeah. Okay. [00:15:05] Yes. There’s a significant deferred portion, but they have paid quite a lot up front. So normally it’s [00:15:10] a disagreement between between the two parties. Sometimes it’s to do with direction [00:15:15] strategy. Um and that’s kind of for them to work out internally. But in most cases [00:15:20] the money does come out, but you just have to wait for it. But compared to [00:15:25] an independent buyer, the independent buyer, they are going to do their financial due [00:15:30] diligence. They are going to be, in most cases, borrowing from a bank who is also going to do some financial due [00:15:35] diligence to protect them as well. But there is going to be a little bit of heart. It’s not just going to [00:15:40] be bought off a spreadsheet if it’s near where the kids go to school or where they got bought up, or it’s [00:15:45] an easy commute for them and they don’t want to move.

Andy Acton: Those things are going to be the tipping point, and that could be a 20, [00:15:50] 30, £50,000 premium for a practice. But the most significant difference if [00:15:55] you sell to an independent is on the day of completion. The seller gets all their money. It’s [00:16:00] rare that there’s any deferred consideration, and the seller gets a choice [00:16:05] as to whether they want to stay on or not. And in some cases they do. And in some cases they [00:16:10] don’t. Um, if they do stay on, um, quite often it’s just for a handover [00:16:15] period. It might be three months just to bed them in, introduce them to the team, a few key patients, [00:16:20] uh, and then they’ll drop it off on their way. And my view is that’s not a bad [00:16:25] thing. I think there’s always a danger as a seller, you know, imagine your situation. You’ve owned a practice [00:16:30] for 12, 15 years. You sell? I’m now the principal. And you’re [00:16:35] working as an associate. From a team point of view, that’s hard. How do they suddenly just [00:16:40] accept me as a principal when they’ve gone to you for 15 years? It can [00:16:45] be quite challenging. So I think in many cases, the seller moving on isn’t all bad [00:16:50] news. There are there are some cases where the outgoing principal stays on, works as [00:16:55] an associate, just turns up, goes into the surgery, works it works really well in most [00:17:00] cases. I think the salary is better off getting out of the way and creating space for that new person to, [00:17:05] you know, create their own culture and impose their own leadership style and all those things.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s imagine [00:17:10] I’m at the end of my tether, which we’re going to get to actually, aren’t we?

Andy Acton: Are you Payman? [00:17:15]

Payman Langroudi: No, but let’s imagine I’m an owner and I’m at the end of my tether and I want out. What [00:17:20] guesstimate can you give me? Like, what percentage am I going to lose by [00:17:25] saying I’m ruling out staying on any more number of years? Surely it must be at that practice [00:17:30] must be worth less if I’m saying I’m only limiting myself to people who let me go now.

Andy Acton: No. [00:17:35]

Payman Langroudi: Surely, though. No. You know what I mean. I could be open to the whole pool.

Andy Acton: Yeah, you’d [00:17:40] be surprised. Um. As as sad as it is where a [00:17:45] practice changes hands and the owner has been there for ten plus years, and [00:17:50] they go on the day of completion. The attrition of patients is very low and it [00:17:55] hits the ego. It’s hard for people to have owned a business for so long, feeling that actually nobody [00:18:00] really cared that much about them. But it’s the truth. Um, there will always be a, a, an [00:18:05] attrition of patience when there’s a change of ownership, the business change. Any business can go through [00:18:10] is a change of ownership. It’s massive. So when that happens, there will be patients who came [00:18:15] and saw you and they know you’ve left and somebody else has taken over. And those are patients [00:18:20] who have, um, some time ago moved away to a new area, but they keep coming back because they like seeing you [00:18:25] and they’ve always seen you, you were their dentist. So there’s always going to be those people who when the new owner comes [00:18:30] in, you’re going to lose. But overwhelmingly, the patients have a very strong [00:18:35] affinity to the location and the practice, not necessarily the clinician. [00:18:40] They they like the clinician. But as long as that, that change is explained [00:18:45] in a professional way and the new person coming in is, is, is a nice person. [00:18:50] The attrition of patients isn’t huge. So I think it’s a bit of patience though.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:18:55] mean, normally the principal is a high grosser. So if I can make sure [00:19:00] there’s a high grosser, it’s going to be in that position that mitigates my risk.

Andy Acton: Yeah, [00:19:05] we try to as best as we ever can. We try to match a buyer with the seller. Um, [00:19:10] sometimes it’s just not possible because the person selling is 20 [00:19:15] plus years clinically, um, qualified. Um, they’re just incredibly [00:19:20] efficient with how they deliver their dentistry. Yeah. And you’ll have somebody coming in who they may [00:19:25] have only been qualified for, you know, seven, seven, eight years and they’re buying a practice. They’re just not going to operate at the same [00:19:30] level. So that can be substituted with associates because the associate [00:19:35] team, the therapists, the hygienists are probably going to stay there. The other team are going to stay there. And the person [00:19:40] coming in, they want it to work. Like most people I come across in dentistry are nice. [00:19:45] Yeah, there aren’t many like psychos, so the person buying wants [00:19:50] it to work. They’re going to be nice. They’re going to be they’re going to support the team and clinical and non-clinical [00:19:55] team. They might not be at the gross they need to, but they’re going to get there. [00:20:00] But it doesn’t mean that by leaving straight away, there’s [00:20:05] an impact on, on on the value that you you get.

Payman Langroudi: One thing I remember the [00:20:10] last time I had you, I wanted to hear terrible stories. And then I was reflecting on it [00:20:15] and I was thinking, well, these are kind of confidential stories, you know, so I can understand why you won’t [00:20:20] want to tell a terrible story. But now I want to go the other way. Like, do you know if people and [00:20:25] what, what kind of growth. Who have bought, scaled and [00:20:30] sold in a short period of time and doubled the value of. So for sure, give me some like [00:20:35] I don’t need their names. Yeah, but examples of what people have done and flipped, you know, [00:20:40] the flippers. Yeah. Rather than the people who hold on to the practice for years and years.

Andy Acton: So on the good and the bad. [00:20:45] Um, I, over the years, I’ve worked quite hard to kind of raise my profile through [00:20:50] social media. And as a result of that, people think they know you, you really well and [00:20:55] it’s lovely, but the truth of what you just said is 95% of the work I do, no one will ever hear [00:21:00] about because.

Payman Langroudi: Confidentiality.

Andy Acton: Confidentiality, nature of what we do. So if somebody DMs me or messages [00:21:05] me, um, that’s never going to become a public conversation. And a lot of the content [00:21:10] that I put out doesn’t necessarily get huge engagement for the same reason that people [00:21:15] will want to speak to me privately and don’t necessarily want to publicly connect themselves with me. So.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you mean they don’t [00:21:20] want to go in the comments and say, exactly.

Andy Acton: Can you help me sell my practice? People don’t do that. Um, which [00:21:25] is fine, which is absolutely fine. So there are horror stories. Uh, share [00:21:30] a horror story with you, then I’ll tell you.

Payman Langroudi: A good one.

Andy Acton: So there was a horror story where somebody bought [00:21:35] a practice. Um, and literally within a month of, [00:21:40] of taking over the practice, they completely remodelled the reception [00:21:45] area. They changed all the colours, all the branding, um, and the price [00:21:50] list as well. So the impact of that was the, um, the seller [00:21:55] had been retained as an associate, the seller’s wife worked as a practice [00:22:00] manager receptionist, so she was still working in the practice. So they just completely revamped what [00:22:05] the practice looked like. The colour scheme and the style had been, [00:22:10] um, decided as a as a collective. The team had sat down and decided what they wanted the practice [00:22:15] to look like. So you’ve steamed in on day one and ripped out the reception area that [00:22:20] they collectively designed and adored. And you’ve changed the style. So you’ve immediately alienated [00:22:25] the people in the practice. Patients came in, saw this shiny new practice, [00:22:30] and coupled with that was a price rise. And a new owner, like [00:22:35] you’ve literally just gone through the book of problems. You should not have done those as a golden rule [00:22:40] for 6 to 12 months change. Don’t change a thing.

Payman Langroudi: Unless unless you feel like [00:22:45] what the existing place needed to be changed. You know, like.

Andy Acton: Yeah, there have been cases where.

Payman Langroudi: Dental [00:22:50] beauty do that.

Andy Acton: Yes. Yeah. There have been cases.

Payman Langroudi: Where.

Andy Acton: People yeah, people [00:22:55] go in and sometimes it’s for good reason. So where a practice has a particularly [00:23:00] poor reputation. Yeah, it can be flipped as a real positive. But as a general rule of thumb, [00:23:05] just evolutionary. Just have a little notebook, just write down all the things you see and [00:23:10] then talk to the team and bring the team along with you as opposed to jump in with your good ideas.

Payman Langroudi: I tell a [00:23:15] story about fennel. I buy, I buy my fennel from this, the most expensive fruit fruit [00:23:20] shop in London, right? It’s opposite my kid’s school. It’s just there and I buy it there and other stuff. And [00:23:25] one day I walk in and, uh, I noticed [00:23:30] the guys aren’t there anymore. And there’s a whole bunch of new people, and I figure it’s been solved. Yeah. [00:23:35] And immediately I’m thinking, what about my fennel? Is my fennel going to stay the same or not? And [00:23:40] then what really got to me was a very simple thing. They moved the till, the till [00:23:45] used to be there. Now it was here. And for me, that was a sign that things were going to [00:23:50] change. Yeah. And I was on my guard and I wasn’t sure. And in the end, now I’m still [00:23:55] shopping there. But which kind of goes to your point about being being loyal to the building? Yeah. And I’m sure [00:24:00] the fed was just as good, but the fear that something might be up, they might come and change everything [00:24:05] just because the till had moved. So this example you’re giving.

Andy Acton: But the thing [00:24:10] is we’re comparing um, very well. It’s very it can [00:24:15] very intimate, sometimes invasive dentistry through buying a herb. But [00:24:20] but but you were connected to that place. So you can see why that’s the case. But the success stories, [00:24:25] I mean.

Payman Langroudi: So what happened? What happened? The patients ran away.

Andy Acton: No, there there [00:24:30] was massive disruption. The guy that sold the practice, um, left his wife left. [00:24:35] So he had to bring somebody else into the practice. Uh, they lost some patients. It was 3 [00:24:40] or 4 months of disruption that was completely unnecessary. If he’d [00:24:45] just calmed down. Just calm down.

Payman Langroudi: Excited, don’t you, when you’re [00:24:50] buying.

Andy Acton: Of course you do. But the thing is, most people own a practice for 10 to 15 years. It’s [00:24:55] not a race. It’s not a race. But then I suppose we also need to remember that the the timeline [00:25:00] to buy a practice, it takes kind of 9 to 12 months. So by the time you get in there, you feel [00:25:05] like it’s been yours for a long while, you know already. I just didn’t have the keys, [00:25:10] but I’m emotionally connected with this location, so I want to get in and I want to start doing things. [00:25:15] So biting your tongue and just waiting. Just waiting for a while. Just watch what’s [00:25:20] going on. It will. It will serve you well. As I said, not in every case, but in most cases, you should [00:25:25] do that. But the the good ones, some of them are remarkable. Um, there [00:25:30] was a guy who bought a, what was a single surgery practice. And typically [00:25:35] single surgery practices aren’t particularly popular anymore. Years ago they worked quite well. [00:25:40] Just dentists worked on their own. They took 8 to 10 weeks holiday a year. It paid them a lovely lifestyle. [00:25:45] That was great. Whereas now there’s much more of a business element to, to, to dentistry. [00:25:50] And this particular site was a, was a single surgery practice.

Andy Acton: And there was a, um, a [00:25:55] residential flat above, um, the person that owned the building had always been very generous, [00:26:00] hadn’t charged much for the residential flat above, was prepared to sell the freehold. So the person that bought it had had the [00:26:05] whole site. So the person that bought it bought a single surgery practice and a flat with the tenant upstairs, [00:26:10] uh, early on, had a conversation with tenant. Tenant was going to move out. So suddenly [00:26:15] single surgery practice. An empty freehold with the potential to turn it into [00:26:20] four surgeries. Um. There was a smallish NHS contract [00:26:25] in the practice, but it had quite a nice flow of patients. Um, expanded it out [00:26:30] into four surgeries. So I did the sensible thing of having the whole thing um, plumbed [00:26:35] and wired for four, but just fitted out those surgeries as they went and it went from one surgery [00:26:40] to four surgeries over about an 18 months to two year period. Came back to me and [00:26:45] said, you know, what do you think? Where do we go? And I’m like, you’ve probably had 80 to 90% [00:26:50] of the game you can have in this site. You really you’ve done so well.

Payman Langroudi: And did you [00:26:55] quadruple the number of patients as well?

Andy Acton: Um, not quite. No. But the amount that was [00:27:00] being earned per patient had gone up significantly. But just by increases prices, making [00:27:05] the experience better. It was a fairly old style practice. Yeah. You know, you turned [00:27:10] up, you got your dentist and you went there wasn’t really much experience that went with it. So by elevating. [00:27:15]

Payman Langroudi: At that point.

Andy Acton: Yeah. So he got to he got to four surgeries and he came back to me and said, you [00:27:20] know, where do I go from here? And I said, I don’t think you can do much more with it. I said, if you’re content running this [00:27:25] practice, it will throw off lovely profit, but you can’t really expand more. So you either need to get another [00:27:30] site. Um, but be aware you’ve then got two sites to manage. Um, or what [00:27:35] you might want to do is basically cash in, you know, take, take the gain on this site and get [00:27:40] another site, which is what he did.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of figures are we talking? How much did he buy it for? How much do you sell it for?

Andy Acton: So he bought it [00:27:45] for it was about 400 for the practice. [00:27:50] Yeah. Um and the freehold I think was like two, 250 something like that. If you take the [00:27:55] freehold out it’s about 400 for the practice. And when it came out it went for it was nearly 2 million. [00:28:00]

Payman Langroudi: How many years.

Andy Acton: For. Oh yeah. The process [00:28:05] end to end to end was a four year process.

Payman Langroudi: And did he do that again as well? Like some, some people are just good. Yeah. [00:28:10]

Andy Acton: Yeah. There’s a number of people who.

Payman Langroudi: Are good at that.

Andy Acton: Have the ability And we’re in a new. [00:28:15] We’re in a new dimension now in. When I so I started in, in, in [00:28:20] this game back in 2000. So I took 25 years ago. And back then there were very [00:28:25] few business minded entrepreneurial dentists. Most people got into ownership [00:28:30] for the same reason it is today. It kind of locked them in. It gives them kind of a certainty of future. But [00:28:35] the business skills weren’t there, and in essence, the demand was [00:28:40] sufficient to keep them in business and keep them going. And that’s just the way it was. Now, [00:28:45] uh, I talk to people who are doing their A-levels who haven’t [00:28:50] even got into dental school yet, who are saying, so how do I grow a group? What’s the best way [00:28:55] to grow a group? Can you talk me through private equity? How does that work? These guys, they’re kids, you know, [00:29:00] I kid you not, you know, they’re sort of 16, 17 year olds, you know, at home on a Zoom call. It’s [00:29:05] wild how how the world’s moved. And there’s lots of people who are [00:29:10] just coming out of dental school. They’re just doing their PhD and they’re saying to me, is it too early [00:29:15] to practice? What does it look like? What do I.

Payman Langroudi: Need to do? The dental student in Liverpool who owns a practice.

Andy Acton: I [00:29:20] think I probably.

Payman Langroudi: Do know the guy. Yes it.

Andy Acton: Is. And [00:29:25] it’s it’s amazing and it’s brilliant. And it’s great that these opportunities are out [00:29:30] there and the world’s moving that fast. I think my only word of caution is it doesn’t have [00:29:35] to apply and look like that for everybody. Because just because you have access to [00:29:40] the resources to enable you to buy a practice doesn’t necessarily mean you should. And [00:29:45] there are lots of families who perhaps clumped together some resources to enable a [00:29:50] family member to buy a business, which which is brilliant. And that bank of mum and dad works strong with [00:29:55] some bank funding. That’s a great way to get into ownership. The only issue it brings is lots [00:30:00] of these young guys, they’re just not rounded enough yet. And going back to the point about [00:30:05] dentistry as a career, hopefully it’s going to be something you’re in for 20, 30, 40 years. Learn [00:30:10] how to talk to patients. Learn how to communicate those interpersonal [00:30:15] skills. I’m not clinical at all. But as I understand, lots of younger dentists are coming out of dental school and they haven’t [00:30:20] had the the wet handed experience that perhaps they would have when you’d have qualified. So you need to kind of really [00:30:25] tune in and learn those things. And once you’ve got that, that foundation sorted, you can [00:30:30] then build on that foundation. Whereas if you start too early because you don’t know what you don’t know, [00:30:35] there could be gaps in what you’re doing and they could be masked by [00:30:40] money being introduced into the business. And I just think that there’s a danger that we [00:30:45] move too quickly. And because many of these things are so public through social media, it does put [00:30:50] pressure on people to feel that they’ve got to be in that same rat race. But I don’t think it has to be.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:30:55] funny you asked dentists this question all the time, but I’m kind of interested in what you’ve got to say about it. Would you encourage [00:31:00] your kids to become dentists?

Andy Acton: Probably [00:31:05] not.

Payman Langroudi: Go on.

Andy Acton: Probably not. Go on. Um, I think the, um, I [00:31:10] think the health tol, um, doesn’t necessarily get talked about enough. Um, [00:31:15] the amount of people I see with serious back and neck issues [00:31:20] and just, just generally, um, the, the toll it’s taken [00:31:25] on the body.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re, you’re seeing a bunch of people who have to sell their practice [00:31:30] due to medical.

Andy Acton: Yeah. I mean, you had, you had Randeep Gill on recently, who’s doing the CFO [00:31:35] thing. He he he he’s one, you know um, we work with through the principles club. We work with [00:31:40] guy George Vernon who’s a kind of, um, wellness and personal trainer and coach. He [00:31:45] has clients. Same situation. In fact, we’re bringing out something next year to help dentists with this [00:31:50] very thing. Yeah. They spend hour after hour in their surgery leaning over a patient. And [00:31:55] sure, there’s great ergonomic stools and there’s, you know, things to help you, but [00:32:00] it’s a very physical thing. And I see a lot of dentists who are struggling physically as a result [00:32:05] of it. And I think there’s also a hidden stress of being a dentist, regardless [00:32:10] of being a practice owner. I think just being a dentist, I think it’s quite a stressful thing to do because [00:32:15] everybody’s aware that the GDC are there. Everybody is aware that. I think as a country, we [00:32:20] are becoming slightly more litigious. I don’t think it’s, you know, anything like as rampant as perhaps [00:32:25] people think, but that’s whirring away in the background. You know, you’re doing microsurgery, [00:32:30] you know, hour after hour, day after day. So there’s risks that come with that. And I [00:32:35] think there’s a stress that builds up in the background, and that stress that builds up in the background coupled [00:32:40] with the physical side of things. I think from my side, you know, I look [00:32:45] at it from a business perspective, but I don’t think it’s for the faint hearted. I think.

Payman Langroudi: It’s. [00:32:50]

Andy Acton: Quite a serious.

Payman Langroudi: Undertaking seeing that firsthand, and it’s both physical and mental. It is. [00:32:55]

Andy Acton: It is. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Issues that people have, and obviously dentists have famously had mental, mental [00:33:00] health issues that, you know, not not only since the GDC. Right? It’s been. Years [00:33:05] and years.

Andy Acton: It’s been talked about a lot in terms of just how how it affects dentists. [00:33:10] And when you look at, you know, dentists compared to other professions, sadly, it ranks incredibly [00:33:15] highly in terms of the mental health impact it has on clinicians.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s talk [00:33:20] about the subject of fatigue, which I guess in a way is the beginnings of [00:33:25] anxiety, you know, mental health issues around your [00:33:30] work. Yeah, in, in a way, that’s what it is. It’s, I guess, a combination of mental and physical things. [00:33:35] But fatigue is a business owner and you’re saying it’s quite common ten [00:33:40] years in.

Andy Acton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s interesting to me. That seems quite young. How old are most people [00:33:45] when they’re buying practices? 30 young, early 30s. Yeah.

Andy Acton: When, when I started, [00:33:50] people tend to own practice for about 15 years and they sold around [00:33:55] 60 early 60s. So they’d buy when they were about 45 and they’d get out at 45. [00:34:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Really?

Andy Acton: Yeah. So it was it was slightly later in life. It wasn’t anything like as young as it is now. [00:34:05] And they would then exit, um, 60, early 60s, something like that. I think now [00:34:10] we’re seeing lots of buyers who are, um, 30 early 30s, um, and they’re [00:34:15] exiting after 10 to 12 years. So they’re coming.

Payman Langroudi: Out seem young. So what are they doing after that? Whatever they’re doing.

Andy Acton: I [00:34:20] think they, um, they either stay on working clinically, um, or they take some time out and [00:34:25] then they come back and have another go on the radio because it’s it, whereas it always used to be [00:34:30] Dental school, you know, a decade as an associate by practice, exit, [00:34:35] retire, that kind of was a very typical cycle that most people went through. Now [00:34:40] it’s kind of qualify within 2 or 3 years. Start looking for a practice by practice, probably [00:34:45] got a side hustle of some sort going on or other then. But quite often these people don’t just limit all [00:34:50] their, um, their business activities to, to Dental practice. Um, they own [00:34:55] that practice for a period of time and linking it to that guy that did incredibly well [00:35:00] and grew that practice from 1 to 4 surgeries. Quite often people, they’re seeing the growth in their [00:35:05] practice and they’re like, okay, so if I maximise the returns on this practice and they’re [00:35:10] staying in touch with where the market’s at and they’re thinking, right, so perhaps now might not be a bad time [00:35:15] to exit. And then they look for another practice that might not be performing particularly well. So there’s [00:35:20] very there’s, there’s more cycles taking place in a Dental career than there was previously.

Payman Langroudi: In [00:35:25] your 25 years. How’s the valuation angle [00:35:30] changed? Because I remember years ago it wasn’t to do with Ebit. No, it was to do with [00:35:35] your gross multiplied by what was a percentage. Yeah. Lower than 100% [00:35:40] of your gross or something like that. Almost 100%. Your growth.

Andy Acton: There was a notion that and [00:35:45] it was just one of these things that.

Payman Langroudi: Was just a legacy thing.

Andy Acton: It just got made up and everyone stuck to it. Yeah, it. [00:35:50]

Payman Langroudi: Was probably Frank Taylor. It was only him.

Andy Acton: Let’s blame.

Payman Langroudi: Him.

Andy Acton: But for a long [00:35:55] while, everybody assumed it was 33% of turnover. That’s what that’s what people said [00:36:00] it was it was 33% of turnover.

Payman Langroudi: Like maybe like one year’s Eve. Yeah.

Andy Acton: And, and [00:36:05] then.

Payman Langroudi: One and a half years.

Andy Acton: Then what happened was it moved to, um, a, [00:36:10] a multiple of underlying profit. Yeah. And much of that was being driven by [00:36:15] the, the, the funders, um, not necessarily the traditional banks because the traditional [00:36:20] banks were quite happy with that, that percentage approach. But as external investment and private [00:36:25] equity came in, those guys were very much used to looking at the underlying profitability in the business, which I completely [00:36:30] understand. And so as a result of that, people were saying, so what’s the, what’s the, the EBITDA? [00:36:35] Um, so we said, well, okay, we can let you have the EBITDA number, but the, the EBITDA [00:36:40] number is great, but there’s two different EBITDA numbers. And this is where it gets a bit confusing when [00:36:45] people start talking about multiples because there’s the EBITDA number, which is [00:36:50] principles. Exactly. So you’ve got a dental practice operating purely on an associate [00:36:55] led basis. So the associate costs are going to be higher. And there’s a multiple that applies to that number. [00:37:00] And then you might have the same practice with the principal working in it. Reduce reliance [00:37:05] on associates. So the underlying profitability is higher.

Andy Acton: And there’s a multiple that’s applied to that. [00:37:10] And there is an argument and a logic that says, but the underlying profits are the same because one of them’s just got the cost [00:37:15] of the owner in there. And it does. But how the owner wants to treat that that income is entirely up to [00:37:20] them. They may have a need to, to draw all of that money. They may not. So there’s those two different [00:37:25] models, but the, the multiple in the majority of cases doesn’t [00:37:30] actually change the value. So you might have a practice that’s completely reliant on associates. [00:37:35] That is, that has an underlying profit of 100,000 and [00:37:40] that might have a multiple of, of seven times applied to it. So you’ve got a 700,000 [00:37:45] valuation. And then on the other side of things, you might have a practice that because the [00:37:50] principal is working in that practice, you’ve got a value of of £300,000, [00:37:55] but it might only have a multiple of 2.4 times applied to [00:38:00] it, which is probably 700,000. So the the underlying values are actually the same. Um, [00:38:05] but, but the other element that.

Payman Langroudi: That same practice in the year 2000 [00:38:10] would be worth a lot less, right? Oh for.

Andy Acton: Sure. Oh oh back in 2000, um, [00:38:15] it was the significant change was 2006. [00:38:20] So for many of your listeners, they probably weren’t around then. [00:38:25] Like old guys like us were. But that was when what is still referred to as the new [00:38:30] GDS contract came in. That was when, prior to that, as an NHS provider, it was items [00:38:35] of service. It was literally you got paid for what you did. It was amazing. Whereas then I went, oh, hold on, this [00:38:40] is from a budget point of view. This is a nightmare. So could we give you a fixed contract to deliver [00:38:45] udas? Yeah, and that would be amazing. So Dental practices then got a contract. But [00:38:50] the reason it affected value so much, it wasn’t necessarily. The contracts were so amazing. [00:38:55]

Payman Langroudi: But they were contracts. They were government contracts.

Andy Acton: Yeah, they were government contracts, which were evergreen. [00:39:00] And I would love to have a business where I just got paid year in, year out, as long as I kept delivering against [00:39:05] my metrics. Oh, wonderful. Wonderful. But what it did is it put every associate out there at risk [00:39:10] because back then there were very few pure private practices. They [00:39:15] all had NHS contracts. So if someone has capped your income effectively by giving you an [00:39:20] NHS contract, if you want to enhance a profitability in your business, you need to reduce your costs. [00:39:25] And the major costs in a dental practice is associates. So if I was earning, say, [00:39:30] £200,000 of profit and this new contracts come in and I run my numbers and I go, oh, I’m [00:39:35] now only going to earn £150,000 a year, but I’d still like to earn £200,000. [00:39:40] So how do I add £50,000 to my profit? Well, if I did some more [00:39:45] updates and had a reduced reliance on associates, I still get £200,000. Excellent. [00:39:50] So I’m going to do some more. And then you as my associate. I don’t need you for three days anymore. I need you for a day and a half. [00:39:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andy Acton: So suddenly associates are feeling vulnerable. They’re like, geez, this is a nightmare. So how do I fix [00:40:00] that? I go further up the food chain and I buy a practice and that fixes it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:40:05] interesting though, in a way like on your side for your business that [00:40:10] you’re doing the same work in the year 2000 [00:40:15] as you are in the year 2025, but you’re getting way more money per sale. [00:40:20] Yes, it’s quite interesting. At the same time, dentists were were charging nothing [00:40:25] for a crown back then and charging a thousand.

Andy Acton: And I think the world’s changed. I think the work that [00:40:30] we have to put in to get a sale away is significantly different. So back [00:40:35] in, in the early days, you would literally send a practice out to the market to launch it. [00:40:40] And that was a piece of paper in an envelope with a stamp taken to the post office. And then basically [00:40:45] you just carry on with your job and you’d wait, and hopefully somebody would ring in and you’d arrange a viewing. [00:40:50] And once an offer was accepted literally 2 or 3 months later. The [00:40:55] deal completed.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Andy Acton: People switched over. That was it, really? Well, the thing is, back then there [00:41:00] was no this kind of you know, in the early days, there was no no version of an NHS contract from one party [00:41:05] to another going through the partnership route. Um, the Care Quality Commission, nobody even thought about [00:41:10] that idea. Um many of the practices were uh, owned [00:41:15] as a, as a freehold. Um, or if it were, if they were creating a lease, it was Yona whereas there’s way [00:41:20] more third party landlords now. So third party landlord being, I own the dental [00:41:25] practice, but I have a lease in place with somebody else. You buy my business, but you’re not [00:41:30] buying the building. But the landlord has to transfer the lease from me to you. And [00:41:35] from the landlord’s point of view, frankly, it’s a nuisance. I’m paying the landlord rent, and then you’re going to pay [00:41:40] them rent. So not a lot changes for them, but they have to go through this hassle. So that can take time.

Payman Langroudi: So then so [00:41:45] the business cycle is elongated as far as that’s a massive for any business that’s a pain.

Andy Acton: Oh. [00:41:50]

Payman Langroudi: It’s not just the pain, it’s financially. Yeah.

Andy Acton: And it’s, it’s it’s three times longer. [00:41:55] You know, a three month transaction was not unusual. Now it’s routinely nine months. And the [00:42:00] problem that brings is momentum. Anything in life we can get momentum into anything. It’s more likely to happen. [00:42:05] If you think about if you’re doing a decorating job at home, you know, if you kind of get the plumber in, great, [00:42:10] the electrician turns in, you order the new bits for the bathroom. Great. That’s good. If any part of that got [00:42:15] disrupted, a job that could take 4 or 5 weeks could take six months. Just [00:42:20] because you lost momentum, you couldn’t get into the rhythm of it. It’s exactly the same in a practice sale. If you can [00:42:25] keep bouncing from an offer accepted to a bank valuation to the CQC registration going [00:42:30] in to getting the third party landlord onside, the NHS contract, if all those things can keep happening [00:42:35] and it bounces, everybody stays engaged and excited. If any one of those stalls or slows down [00:42:40] trying to get that rhythm back into a deal, it’s not. It’s not particularly easy.

Payman Langroudi: Before [00:42:45] we move on to this fatigue question, one last thing from the raising [00:42:50] finance perspective, where are we at? Like, how much do I need? What percentage of the value of [00:42:55] the practice do I need to raise? Personally, typically right now in December [00:43:00] 25th.

Andy Acton: So it’s safe to have 10%. Um, average practice [00:43:05] in the UK at the moment around about eight £900,000. So it’s safe to have 10%. It’s 80 90,000. [00:43:10] Your legal and other costs say an extra £20,000. So if you’ve got 100, [00:43:15] £110,000, you’re in a very safe category at that level. However, at the moment [00:43:20] there are banks that will lend you up to 100% of the [00:43:25] purchase price, which is staggering, absolutely staggering. And they’ll lend you 100% [00:43:30] of the freehold purchase price as well. So there are banks out there in theory, [00:43:35] that require you to put no money in at all. However, it will be very dependent [00:43:40] on the performance of the business you’re buying and your own personal profile as well. For [00:43:45] safety’s sake, I’d say have your 10% put aside. It’s always better to have it and not need it [00:43:50] than not have it. And you’ve got a problem. And the banks at the moment the rates are [00:43:55] very generous. Um, many of them are sub 2% above base rate. And [00:44:00] to put that into context for me as a non dentist, if I want to borrow money for a venture, [00:44:05] if I can get 50% of the total investment, I’ve done very well and my interest rate [00:44:10] will be something like 6 to 7% above base rate.

Payman Langroudi: So big difference.

Andy Acton: Huge.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:44:15]

Andy Acton: We only see the world as we see it though. So dentists are things aren’t as they used to be. And [00:44:20] you know, there have been times when they’ve been slightly more generous, but we are in a window where [00:44:25] the banks haven’t been much more generous than they are today at the moment. Being able to.

Payman Langroudi: Remember [00:44:30] the famous 110%, which is a beautiful thing, wasn’t it? Yeah. Money to [00:44:35] do it up as well. You know, as.

Andy Acton: A borrower, it’s a beautiful thing. But I think that that [00:44:40] phrase skin in the game, I always think where somebody hasn’t got anything in [00:44:45] the ability for them just to fold and walk away. Um.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:44:50] doesn’t happen in Dental though. So much does it? It doesn’t, I mean.

Andy Acton: But um, but I still think in any [00:44:55] situation, I think it was quite nice. And even now, um, even at 10%, [00:45:00] someone’s still putting in 90% and you might be able to get 100%. Um, [00:45:05] but I think it changes, it shifts your, um, attitude to it if [00:45:10] you part with money, you know, if, if you do an event.

Payman Langroudi: Of course, of course. Yeah, it seems obvious.

Andy Acton: But the thing is you, [00:45:15] you, you arrange lots of events and your, your exemplary at creating an environment [00:45:20] and a, and a package that people want to come to, but [00:45:25] where your events are free, whereas where somebody has to pay a token gesture, [00:45:30] totally different.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andy Acton: The commitment changes and we just, we just behave differently when things are free. We don’t [00:45:35] attribute the same value to it. So I think putting money in is always a good thing, even though we don’t [00:45:40] perhaps think it as a person putting the money in, I think it actually is a good thing.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about this life cycle then. [00:45:45] Yeah, I by the practice, the, the teething pains, all of that. Let’s [00:45:50] get to the other side of it. The, the when, when the fatigue starts, which you’re saying eight, [00:45:55] ten years in, what are the signs and symptoms of that fatigue?

Andy Acton: So this is, [00:46:00] this is not this is not kind of a scientific approach. This isn’t [00:46:05] an evidence based approach of my 25 years experience. And what I see is [00:46:10] around about 8 to 10 years. For some, it can be 10 to 12 years, but around 8 to 10 year window, [00:46:15] um, owners start to suffer owner fatigue. And they don’t in many [00:46:20] cases know they’ve got it. They can’t always articulate what it looks like, but I’ve, I’ve [00:46:25] built it. I’ve thought about it in terms of five different categories. And [00:46:30] the five categories it seems to fall into is emotional load. So this is just, [00:46:35] you know, we’ve probably all had businesses where at times there’s been, there’s been a cash flow [00:46:40] issue. Yeah. Um, the emotional load looks like waking up at 3:00 in the [00:46:45] morning and knowing that you haven’t got as much cash in the business as you need. The emotional load is [00:46:50] you’re on holiday and you’d like to switch off and have a break and you can’t. So emotional [00:46:55] load, it’s just it’s just like a sandbag. It just sits on your shoulders and it’s there all the time. [00:47:00] The next thing is lifestyle misalignment and, and as a business owner, and this affects [00:47:05] dental practice owners, but it’s a business owner thing. Lifestyle misalignment means you are going to miss personal [00:47:10] things. You’re going to miss a mate’s wedding.

Andy Acton: You’re going to you might not get home in time for the birthday [00:47:15] party. Um, there’s going to be social events that you’re not going to get to. And [00:47:20] likewise, there’s going to be very important business things that you really feel you should be at, but [00:47:25] you can’t be at the other side. So this lifestyle misalignment is this pull from both sides [00:47:30] where you have a personal life and you have a business life, and trying to match those [00:47:35] two off isn’t isn’t always easy. You then have the third area’s decision, [00:47:40] fatigue and decision fatigue is you asked a hundred questions every single [00:47:45] day. And some of this is due to lack of processes and systems being in place, [00:47:50] but it can be wearing where you’re just asked question after question. And sometimes you give a bad answer [00:47:55] because you’re just exhausted and you didn’t really give it the thought that it needed. [00:48:00] You’ve then got role creep, which is the fourth area where many people think, I’m going to buy a dental practice. [00:48:05] It’s going to be brilliant. I’m going to be a dentist and I’m going to be the CEO. Amazing. That’ll be [00:48:10] my life. That’ll that will look good. So put that in the bin. The reality is you’re dealing with [00:48:15] HR, I.T., marketing, sales, quality control, your CEO, [00:48:20] your dentist.

Andy Acton: And then outside of that, you’ve then got going back to the lifestyle misalignment, you’ve got [00:48:25] a world outside of dental practice ownership. So what you’re doing is many things. [00:48:30] And remember, the one you’re qualified is being a dentist. All the others, you [00:48:35] don’t really know what you’re doing. You’re kind of learning as you go. Um, [00:48:40] and some of them, um, you know, if you did a marketing campaign, it didn’t work particularly well. Okay. [00:48:45] The impact it’s going to cost you some money and you’ll recover from it. But if it’s an HR issue [00:48:50] and you don’t manage it particularly well, potentially there’s a tribunal coming down the road towards you. [00:48:55] So that creates a stress as well. And then the last part of this of these categories, [00:49:00] exit readiness. And this isn’t about pushing people into a corner to say [00:49:05] you need to sell, but it’s about having a plan around what selling looks like. And [00:49:10] I say to lots of people, being prepared to sell and selling are two completely different things. They’re [00:49:15] not connected, but you do need a plan of what your exit looks like, because if you don’t have a plan [00:49:20] that creates a stress because you wake up in the morning, you’re like, when does this stop? When, [00:49:25] how do I get out of this? I feel like I’m on this treadmill.

Payman Langroudi: No light at the end of a tunnel sort [00:49:30] of thing.

Andy Acton: I’m on a treadmill and I’ll just keep doing my thing and and when does it come out? And those [00:49:35] five different areas affect different people in different ways. There’s no rule book that says [00:49:40] you go from one step to the next to the next. But I’ve noticed that from speaking to people and articulating [00:49:45] that quite often there’ll be nods and people go, no, you’re right. You know, I have [00:49:50] got this misalignment or I do feel at the end of the day, I’m absolutely [00:49:55] exhausted and I don’t know where to go or how to recuperate. And then it starts [00:50:00] the next day. And I do feel that I’m kind of on my knees trying to fix tech, [00:50:05] and I don’t really know what I’m doing. It’s that.

Payman Langroudi: You know, as a professional [00:50:10] business, you’re more at risk of this quandary [00:50:15] than me or you. Insomuch as you know, we can we [00:50:20] can fool ourselves. I can fool myself with I’m going to bring out a toothpaste next year and I’m going to [00:50:25] take over the world, you know. And even if that doesn’t happen, the [00:50:30] hope that I could do that. And, you know, there is this light, there’s some sort of a spark [00:50:35] that that could happen. Whereas when you’re in a professional business and dentistry, it’s a sort of a building [00:50:40] based business. If aside from the, you know, multiple practices, you’re in [00:50:45] this building. And so you can’t imagine that anything’s going to change radically [00:50:50] in this building, especially if you’re not, you know, mind, you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re, [00:50:55] you’re tired and frustrated. You’re, you’re not going to make some massive change, start some [00:51:00] massive marketing campaign.

Andy Acton: I think their world is quite small. Yeah. They go to [00:51:05] the same building every day. They then go to a room in that building. They spend.

Payman Langroudi: Same [00:51:10] person.

Andy Acton: Same, spend several hours with one person. Probably their nurse in that [00:51:15] they have a rotation of patients. If things go really well, they’ll get a lunch hour. If they don’t, it will [00:51:20] be a lunch break. They then at the end of the day, have to deal with all the business issues that have [00:51:25] come up during that day and get those dealt with and answered. They then go home [00:51:30] with depleted energy levels and want to show up at home because that’s why [00:51:35] they’re doing all this. They want to create a great environment and life at home, and [00:51:40] then they do the next thing again, and they don’t see how they’re doing compared to anybody else. Because [00:51:45] I spoke to you before. Oh it’s terrible. It’s really hard on this. And I look at the numbers [00:51:50] like, are you any idea how well you’re doing? You are doing. You know, I see people [00:51:55] sometimes. So the average gross for a dentist countrywide is around about [00:52:00] 250 to £300,000, something in that order. And I see people [00:52:05] who are grossing 7 or £800,000 and moaning that they’re not doing very well.

Payman Langroudi: Right? [00:52:10]

Andy Acton: Yeah, yeah. Just them in their surgery. And you you’ve no clue, have you. How, [00:52:15] how phenomenally well you’re doing. And as a profession it’s not good at [00:52:20] sharing experience. People tend to be quite it’s quite a British thing. People are quite guarded [00:52:25] about not wanting to share. They’ll share the soft stuff, they’ll share the easy things. But when it comes down to the [00:52:30] nitty gritty of how they’re doing, and we’re very fortunate because we obviously get a lot of financial data [00:52:35] that comes in and we can anonymize that and average it so we can share numbers with people. Just to let them know [00:52:40] how they’re doing. And quite often that can, that can be a weight off their shoulders because they [00:52:45] go, oh, actually, you know, I thought I was working and I was working and with no results, but I go, [00:52:50] oh, oh, actually, I’m not doing too bad. And suddenly they, they sit up a bit straighter. [00:52:55] They feel better because we’re not we’re not sharing how people are doing. And that that’s kind [00:53:00] of partly why we sort of created the principals club to put people into a community where they can speak [00:53:05] to other practice owners openly and honestly about where they’re at and what’s going on.

Payman Langroudi: Like group therapy [00:53:10] sort of thing. Kind of. Yeah. It’s interesting when you went through that list, every one of the ones you said [00:53:15] sort of resonated with me at one point in my career. So [00:53:20] do you think that sometimes, you know, I mean, I’ve certainly been in a situation [00:53:25] where for one period of time I felt like I was having. Let’s pick one [00:53:30] of them. Decision fatigue. You know, maybe I was stressed, but I felt like I got out of [00:53:35] it. So that question of, is it something that’s like a terminal? Is it something that just gets [00:53:40] worse and worse and worse and worse until they get to a point of, of being completely worn out at [00:53:45] your wit’s end? Or have you seen it turn around as well? I guess that’s what the principal does, [00:53:50] right?

Andy Acton: And, and I think with owner fatigue, I think it depends on how long you’ve [00:53:55] been suffering and how many categories are affecting you. So I think if you were [00:54:00] suffering just with decision fatigue and it’s for a few months and you said, I cannot go on like [00:54:05] this, and you turn it around, which either means in most cases that would mean [00:54:10] you put something in place to make sure that people don’t have to keep coming to you for answers [00:54:15] to the same questions. So you either have, um, some, um, standard operating procedures [00:54:20] that they can go to and go, right. I don’t need to ask Payman. Right. I do that yet. Got it. And then suddenly it’s almost [00:54:25] like exceptional reporting. People are only coming to you for the really weird things that haven’t cropped up before so [00:54:30] it can be managed. So any of these categories can be managed individually or collectively. [00:54:35] But it does come down to how many of them are affecting you, and how long has it been, [00:54:40] because there does come a point where it’s like the work required to unravel it and get back [00:54:45] to a state where you really enjoy it may or may not be something you want to do, particularly [00:54:50] depending on how long you’ve owned the practice for. So if you owned a practice for 1012 years and there [00:54:55] could be a year or two’s work to get to a point where it felt like it did when you owned it for 4 or 5 years, [00:55:00] many people just aren’t prepared to put in the hard yards to get back to [00:55:05] where they want to be. And in that case, we look at the numbers because it [00:55:10] might be the right thing to do is to sell, because what you don’t want to do is if you’re being affected [00:55:15] and it becomes acute, that will start to represent itself through the numbers. And [00:55:20] if your numbers start to decline, your value declines and are.

Payman Langroudi: A multiple [00:55:25] of that. Right?

Andy Acton: Exactly. I want everyone to exit at the peak. I [00:55:30] want people to go and buy peak. I mean, they’re still enjoying it. Their value [00:55:35] is up. They’ve got their health and there’s a life beyond ownership. I want everyone to [00:55:40] exit on those terms. I don’t want people to exit when they’re thoroughly fed up. I can see it in [00:55:45] the financials. And the fatigue has started to affect their personal health because they’ve [00:55:50] left it too.

Payman Langroudi: When we talk about the length of the cycle between meeting you [00:55:55] and the practice being sold, sometimes being up to three, four, five years, even then [00:56:00] it’s important to be able to say, look, I may be at the end of my tether in five years [00:56:05] time. Now’s a good time to get myself sales ready. So what does sales readiness look like? What [00:56:10] are the checkpoints that, you know, apart from the obvious, you know, go through the [00:56:15] obvious. So you go through the obvious. So, so.

Andy Acton: Silly things like your financial accounts need to be up [00:56:20] to date. Yes. So you have nine months to file your financial accounts from your [00:56:25] year end. Yeah. The buyer is going to need to present those accounts to the bank. Yes. So you [00:56:30] need to make sure your accounts are up to date. And the files you need to speak to your accountant and say, I’m getting myself ready. [00:56:35] We need to make sure we’re filing a little bit earlier each year [00:56:40] so that we can present those, those figures. You need to make sure that your your underlying profitability [00:56:45] and costs look good. And by that I don’t mean the year before [00:56:50] you sell. You completely drop all your marketing activity. You get an artificially inflated [00:56:55] number because that’s, that’s not going to fly. Likewise, if you just kind of deliver [00:57:00] an extraordinary amount of dentistry in the year before you sell, that’s going to be spotted. So let’s say your turnover [00:57:05] was 808, 50, 900, 1.3 million. But [00:57:10] what’s going on in that year? You know, that looks like you’ve just worked really hard to elevate [00:57:15] your profit to get to get a good exit value. There’s probably nothing left by way of dentistry to do on that [00:57:20] patient base for the incoming owner. So be smart about how you do it and run that in [00:57:25] a decent amount of time.

Payman Langroudi: And on the on the buyer side, who’s looking out for that stuff, the bank.

Andy Acton: Yeah. [00:57:30] So buyers are reasonably sophisticated. Oh yeah. They’re getting better [00:57:35] at looking at that. The bank and their broker is going to look at that on their behalf as well. Um, [00:57:40] some work with accountants, but most it’s generally through through the bank and the broker [00:57:45] side of things.

Payman Langroudi: And what else, what else on the checklist that your, your contracts with your associates, [00:57:50] your staff, the NHS and building owner.

Andy Acton: Yeah. Do those earlier than, [00:57:55] than you need because when, when you start to sell, um, we [00:58:00] spot very subtle changes in people’s behaviour. I know you fairly well. You’re [00:58:05] in a relaxed mood today. Kind of says you had a good weekend. If you weren’t, I sense [00:58:10] an anxiety from you in terms of how you are. Yeah. Teams will work with their principal for many [00:58:15] years. They spot it. So when they go into a sale process, um. Oh no, you all go, I’m just going to [00:58:20] stay back and do some work tonight. She never does that. What’s she staying back [00:58:25] for? So these slight adjustments in behaviour, people spot the reason [00:58:30] that the principal’s staying back was to get some paperwork together. Whereas if you did that over three, four, six [00:58:35] months, a little bit here, a little bit there, that’s much better. But to your point about contacts. Absolutely. By [00:58:40] law, you need employment contracts with everybody in the business anyway. So make [00:58:45] sure you’ve got those in place and make sure they’re updated. Employment law changes at a [00:58:50] rapid rate. So to make sure those are up to date, make sure you have, um, self-employed [00:58:55] contracts in place with your associates, therapists and hygienists, all the other [00:59:00] service contracts you have in place. If you’ve got things in place for your, your suction motor, your compressor, any [00:59:05] digital tech. Make sure those are in place.

Andy Acton: Look at any long term [00:59:10] contracts that you have as well. So if you have, um, a long term contract, say [00:59:15] your telephone company, so you had a contract in place with them and, and you signed [00:59:20] into a five year contract, and that was three years ago. If you’re looking to sell in three years time, [00:59:25] you probably don’t want to sign a new five year contract at the end of that one, because then someone’s [00:59:30] going to be taken over a four year contract that they might not want to do, and you might have to buy yourself out of it. [00:59:35] So like, try and have a line of sight beyond where you are on the, on [00:59:40] the property side of things. If it’s a freehold, you know where the deeds are, find the deeds. If it’s [00:59:45] a leasehold. Do you have your, your, your lease? Look at your lease and think about the remaining term [00:59:50] of your lease. So a bank will lend you the money as a buyer [00:59:55] over the remaining terms of the years on the lease. So what that looks like in reality [01:00:00] is I own the practice and I signed a 15 year lease and I signed [01:00:05] that lease seven years ago. So you as the buyer now have eight years [01:00:10] remaining on the lease. So what that means is the bank, who’s going to lend you the money to buy the practice will [01:00:15] most likely only lend you the money over eight years.

Andy Acton: So what that’s going to do is that’s going to compress [01:00:20] the ability for you to borrow money, because it’s going to have to be repaid over a short period of time. [01:00:25] However, if I had a 15 year lease, I’m seven years through the years. There’s [01:00:30] eight years to go and I want to sell. Next year, I might be able to go to my landlord now and say, I’m [01:00:35] just looking and thinking about making some investment in my practice and expanding it. But to do that, [01:00:40] I’m going to need to borrow some money and I’m going to go to the bank to borrow some money. But what the bank are going to really be looking [01:00:45] for would be a 15 year lease. Would you be against extending my lease out now out [01:00:50] to 15 years? Because that would really help me. Landlords are probably going to be like, yeah, sure, no problem at all. Because [01:00:55] a dental practice as a covenant is a really low risk tenant. So why wouldn’t you do that? [01:01:00] But what I’ve now got is I’ve now got a 15 year lease. So when I sell my practice next year, I’ve got 14 [01:01:05] years to run. You can borrow the money over 14 years. Your repayment is now stretched [01:01:10] over 14 years. It looks much better.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s interesting.

Andy Acton: To do these things. [01:01:15] You need to have a longer line of sight than ring me and say I want to sell. So there’s, there’s and [01:01:20] you know, find your NHS contract. Um, if there’s any, any amendments [01:01:25] to it. Have you got the amendment documentation, the amount of people who literally cannot find [01:01:30] the documentation relating to NHS contract, which I get because you know, we laugh about the new NHS [01:01:35] contract but but it was coming up for 20 years ago. So people just don’t know where this documentation [01:01:40] is. If you can start to line all that up. You’re going to be well ahead.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:01:45] said you don’t. People don’t like to see huge cliffs drop offs in cost. But [01:01:50] do you do you say would you say to kind of taper down your costs over [01:01:55] a period of years so that you know, your cost base looks lower and your, your if [01:02:00] it looks higher?

Andy Acton: Yeah, if you can. And there’s no material impact on your business. So [01:02:05] if you’ve been heavily investing in digital marketing campaigns, say, and you’ve [01:02:10] just been paying them, it’s just been recurring and you’ve not really monitored the success [01:02:15] of those. And they’re not performing. Sure. Why wouldn’t you? You know, drop drop out some meta [01:02:20] ads or if the SEO has been working in the background, but you’re not sure it’s having an effect, it would make [01:02:25] sense to, to wind those down. But I always take the view that in business, you [01:02:30] can only ever trim your costs so much to improve profit before it [01:02:35] shows up somewhere. And by that I mean the quality of what you deliver, the quality of [01:02:40] the team who work in the business. I would much favour growth on the top end, so go for more [01:02:45] income and then the costs. They don’t take care of themselves, but you, you’ll be less bothered [01:02:50] about them. But there could be things in their materials, you know, do you have a [01:02:55] a policy for managing materials? Do you rotate stock? Is somebody targeted to [01:03:00] buy materials? Are you looking for discounts? There’s now people out there that will help [01:03:05] you with procurement to get discounts. Are you looking at those things? Um, one thing that sometimes [01:03:10] people do, which is, um, it’s well-intentioned, but it’s foolish [01:03:15] is they give everybody a nice pay rise before they sell. So they say, my team are very loyal. [01:03:20] They’ve been with me for many years. So I’m going to give everybody a ten a 10% [01:03:25] pay rise. So let’s say that the salary costs are £300,000. What you’ve done [01:03:30] is you’ve then increased that to £330,000. That £30,000 increase [01:03:35] if.

Payman Langroudi: Seven x.

Andy Acton: If you’ve got A7X on that, you just wipe 200 grand off the [01:03:40] value of your business. So whilst it’s when in tension.

Payman Langroudi: So what should I do? I should sell the business [01:03:45] and then pay them.

Andy Acton: Pay them a bonus.

Payman Langroudi: A bonus.

Andy Acton: Paid. So don’t, don’t [01:03:50] play with the salaries. Leave. Leave them as they are. If the owner wants to do something completely up to them. [01:03:55] But your underlying profit hasn’t been impacted. If when you sell from your sale proceeds, [01:04:00] if you’d like to say thank you to your team and make a payment to them entirely up to you, they still [01:04:05] benefit financially.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the tax implications?

Andy Acton: Oh, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andy Acton: Yeah for sure. [01:04:10] And that’s the other thing. You should seek Um, financial advice, either from a financial advisor or [01:04:15] your accountant before you go into the process. Because as a business owner, there’s certain relief that [01:04:20] you get the benefit from. So things like making pension contributions. If you’ve worked in the NHS [01:04:25] a lot, you’ve probably got quite a nice NHS pension and you might not need to add [01:04:30] anything to it. But if you’ve worked primarily in the private sector, quite often people haven’t [01:04:35] made a great pension contribution. But as a business owner you can make company [01:04:40] pension contributions and lots of people now operate as through limited companies. So if [01:04:45] you’ve got some spare cash and profit in your business, why wouldn’t you use that to enhance your [01:04:50] pension pot prior to selling? Because once you’ve sold and you no longer own a business, that that ability is gone. [01:04:55] But again, it’s a bit like looking at those those long term contracts [01:05:00] you’ve got in place. If you do that now, you can make those contributions [01:05:05] and then you can sell your business. And all this comes back to, I would love to speak to people [01:05:10] 3 to 5 years before they sell because it’s going to take them a year to sell. So that’s four years. [01:05:15] It gives me a couple of years to have a look at what they’re doing and get them prepared. In terms of, [01:05:20] is your documentation in place? Can we improve your financial performance? And then we go into the process [01:05:25] that that would be perfect.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I want to point two things out to you. Yeah. Number one, the [01:05:30] general knowledge around business of the population, [01:05:35] the population, not not just dentists. Yeah. And [01:05:40] where should these lessons be taught? You know, because some people say, oh, look at dental [01:05:45] school. There should be a section that says business principles. Yeah. But for [01:05:50] me, what I’ve really become really clear on now is that it should be taught at school. [01:05:55] And I, and the reason I say that is, you know, when you watch your kids watch [01:06:00] my son go through A-level, further maths. Yeah, it’s very [01:06:05] complicated subject, very complicated. Any A-level is It’s very complicated. [01:06:10] Yeah. And yet the question of how do I get a mortgage? How do I [01:06:15] get a loan? Fixed costs, um, non-fixed costs. And much of [01:06:20] the stuff you’ve just gone through right now never gets taught at all. [01:06:25]

Andy Acton: No.

Payman Langroudi: To any to any part of the population. And then were you, as a finance professional, [01:06:30] find all this stuff quite obvious? It rolls off your tongue. Now, on the other side of it, [01:06:35] the second thing I want to point out to you is when you are a dentist, it’s amazing how [01:06:40] literally you’ve got half an hour in a day, like, look, me and you, we [01:06:45] both have businesses, you know, thank goodness I’m I’m not a dentist anymore, but [01:06:50] but the something comes up. Let’s say there’s a recruitment question. [01:06:55] Your, your right hand, uh, lady is moving to Dubai. Now you need to find someone [01:07:00] new. Um, something regulatory comes up with the financial services Authority. In [01:07:05] my world, I’ve got loads of regulatory issues. Something comes up. Yeah, I [01:07:10] could dedicate the whole of today, tomorrow and the day after to fixing that problem. If I want to. Yeah, a dentist [01:07:15] can’t. Nope. Dentists can’t. It’s 9 a.m., 8:38 a.m.. Patient. Yeah. [01:07:20] And zero breaks until the end of that day. And so, you [01:07:25] know, the don’t work six days a week as a dentist [01:07:30] and have at least one day. You know, like admin time. [01:07:35] And in that one day, educate yourself, right?

Andy Acton: Oh for sure. I mean, to your to your [01:07:40] first point, I, I completely, 100% agree. I think the fact that [01:07:45] we don’t teach young people anything about, um, money and [01:07:50] business type things at school is a travesty. I think now, um, [01:07:55] the world’s changing where most people are going to have 3 or 4 different careers. [01:08:00] Lots of people have, um, work they do on the side, you know, whether [01:08:05] it’s, uh, an Etsy tick tock type thing, but they have things in that capacity. [01:08:10]

Payman Langroudi: For a property business.

Andy Acton: Exactly. So I think the fact that people just don’t understand how the [01:08:15] world works at a very basic level, you know, um, [01:08:20] stupid things like tax. Yeah. Um, silly things like, [01:08:25] um, the different ways that you can own a business. It’s very, very basic [01:08:30] stuff, but just giving people an understanding. I think it should be um a school, [01:08:35] school, school level school.

Payman Langroudi: They go into depth in school in lots of ways. Yeah. So, [01:08:40] so there is, there’s some scope for.

Andy Acton: And even if it started as an after school [01:08:45] club. Yeah. I think there would be, um, a thirst for it. I think people would like to know that. I [01:08:50] think it then gets um, worse for dentists because [01:08:55] if you’re at school, you’re needing to choose the right GCSEs to [01:09:00] do the right A-levels, to get the right points to go to the right dental school. So you’ve decided [01:09:05] this when you were probably 13, 14, 15 years old. So you’re [01:09:10] now getting quite narrow in where you’re going. And then you go into dental school and you’re [01:09:15] now purely just dealing with with teeth. And then you come out of dental school. [01:09:20] And then what happens is you immediately become a high earner.

Payman Langroudi: So you reliant [01:09:25] on that.

Andy Acton: Then you’ve had blinkers put on and you’ve really focussed on this [01:09:30] one specific thing that then pays you really well. But nobody ever said you’re [01:09:35] going to have to pay some tax at some point. The amount of young dentists I see who go, oh, [01:09:40] who’s this brown envelope from? No, seriously, I kid you not, they did not [01:09:45] know they had to pay tax. And because of the nature of how it falls, the tax [01:09:50] falls after the event. And quite often they might have been earning for a year, 18 months, two years before it [01:09:55] actually truly catches up. And then they get a tax bill for several thousand pounds. And [01:10:00] life being what it is. Um, the majority of people spend about 97% of what they earn. [01:10:05] So there’s no money, there’s no money left over. So now you’re on the back foot and [01:10:10] people don’t have savings. You know, Lloyds Bank did a survey several years ago. Now I think nationally [01:10:15] the national average savings in the UK I think was £1,500. People [01:10:20] do not hold on to cash. They spend it from an economy point of view is good. We want it put back in the economy. [01:10:25] But for young people that don’t understand this, that’s a real a real problem. So [01:10:30] it should absolutely be taught at Dental school stage. And for [01:10:35] dentists it gets worse. But to your secondary point about running a business, this [01:10:40] creates a stress in itself. And I always say if someone’s going to be owning and running a business quite [01:10:45] often in the early days, it’s hard for them to do anything less than four clinical days [01:10:50] because.

Payman Langroudi: That’s just the reality.

Andy Acton: It’s just the reality. They’ve kind of they’ve got to pay the bank loan. [01:10:55] They’ve got to cover costs. They want to maintain a lifestyle. So they have. But the sooner they can get down [01:11:00] to something like 3 or 3 and a half days to better. Because you know what you put into running [01:11:05] your ventures, you know, it’s not a day and a half, two day a week job. But [01:11:10] what we’re kind of saying to a dentist is if they’re working for clinical days a week, and let’s say [01:11:15] they could just do it in a day and a half, that means that’s five and a half days. So they’re going to get Saturday [01:11:20] afternoon and Sunday off. That’s it. And that’s for everything. That’s for [01:11:25] anything that came up in their life personal, improving the business because [01:11:30] the day and a half is just running the business. It’s not growing the business. And and that that doesn’t make any sense. That [01:11:35] doesn’t work. Um, so yeah, you, you need a system that enables you [01:11:40] to only be locked away in your surgery for ideally three, three and a half days [01:11:45] to allow you time. And it’s having the confidence of if I invest time on my business [01:11:50] and I’m not going to surgery, can I add value to my business beyond my hourly [01:11:55] rate as a dentist? And in the early days, the answer to that might might not be yes.

Andy Acton: And [01:12:00] for people who are thinking about buying a dental practice in the future, I’d say [01:12:05] start investing in your skills now. Start going on communications courses, interpersonal [01:12:10] skills. Start understanding strategic marketing, advertising, how to manage people. [01:12:15] Because if you can start to get those in your kitbag now, suddenly you’ve got you’ve got [01:12:20] a skill stack. So then when you step out of the surgery, you’ve got a framework to how to manage [01:12:25] other people. Because ideally, when you’re out of surgery, you’ve got to say a team of 12 [01:12:30] people. Let’s imagine if you could, by working with those people, you could improve all of those [01:12:35] people by 10%. Yeah, that’s going to be greater than you would have achieved in the surgery. But you need [01:12:40] to have the confidence to step out of the surgery to do that, because then the whole business elevates [01:12:45] and also the business elevates. It’s not like you’re doing more per hour [01:12:50] in your surgery because in the short term, that’s great, but you need a business because [01:12:55] otherwise all you’ve done is you’ve just got another job. You were an associate, and now you’ve got another job [01:13:00] in a surgery, in a practice you own. That’s not it’s not really a business, is it?

Payman Langroudi: How about if I’m buying [01:13:05] a practice and I don’t understand how to read a financial report or profit and loss and all that? [01:13:10] Have you got guys who can translate those for dentists or. Yeah. So I [01:13:15] don’t need to go as as a buyer. I don’t need to go and learn that aspect.

Andy Acton: So [01:13:20] there’s a few things you can do. So we, we actually run a thing called a buyer’s masterclass, which is a one day course [01:13:25] where we go through things like that. We talk them through like step by step. A profit and loss statement [01:13:30] is a page of numbers. And if you’ve never seen one, it’s a bit overwhelming. It’s like most things in life, once [01:13:35] it gets broken down, it’s not that complicated. Like it literally is as simple as [01:13:40] there’s a big number at the top.

Payman Langroudi: The brackets mean a loss. Yeah.

Andy Acton: But the big number at the top [01:13:45] is income. Yeah. You’ve then got a big list and they’ve already expenses. Yeah. And you total [01:13:50] those up and take them away from the big number which is income. And that’s the bit that’s left over. And [01:13:55] if the bit left over is a blank number. You’ve made money. If it’s a red number or it’s in brackets, [01:14:00] you’ve lost money. It really is as simple as that. It gets way more detailed in terms of [01:14:05] the analysis of those numbers. But going back to your point about nobody [01:14:10] ever tells young people this, it’s completely reasonable and acceptable that they don’t [01:14:15] understand it. And I think sometimes you kind of get to a certain stage in life as an adult where you’re [01:14:20] expected to know certain things. So quite often dentists who are buying practices, [01:14:25] they ask questions because they think they should be asking those sorts of questions, but [01:14:30] they don’t really understand the structure of financial accounts. So we explain that, and [01:14:35] a good finance broker and the bank will also help you understand it as well. And it’s not it’s [01:14:40] not just understanding it. So you can buy a business. Once you’ve bought a business, you [01:14:45] really need to know what’s going on. You know, there’s a thing with the management called grip. Grip [01:14:50] is knowing those numbers in your business. So I bet you know there’s certain metrics [01:14:55] in your business that you know. Yeah. You know. You know who your top few customers are, you know, [01:15:00] roughly what they spend, you know, roughly what stock you’ve got, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, roughly understand what’s going on.

Andy Acton: Yeah, [01:15:05] exactly. And a Dental business owner, they need to know that as well. Um, but [01:15:10] you you don’t know where to start if you don’t understand the numbers and [01:15:15] which are the ones that are really critical that you’ve got.

Payman Langroudi: Because there’s a problem about too many KPIs, right? And [01:15:20] one’s sometimes you get a KPI that you even can’t do anything about or don’t do anything about. What [01:15:25] would you say if I say the three key KPIs to keep looking at in the business?

Andy Acton: So [01:15:30] I think it depends what sort of practice you are. Yeah. Um, but for me, I think [01:15:35] new patients is really important.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Important to the health of the business. [01:15:40]

Andy Acton: Exactly. You need a flow of new business coming in. I think you need to [01:15:45] understand your your recall system, because if you’ve got loads of new patients and [01:15:50] they’re not coming back, you’ve got a hole in your bucket. So I think you need to understand your your recoil system and what [01:15:55] what that looks like. And I think the third one is sickness.

Payman Langroudi: Sickness?

Andy Acton: Yeah. [01:16:00]

Payman Langroudi: What do.

Andy Acton: You mean? I think if you’ve got a high rate of sickness, there’s something wrong in the business.

Payman Langroudi: Your [01:16:05] personal.

Andy Acton: Yeah. As in. As in your team.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Andy Acton: I think your team. I think you look at the [01:16:10] sickness level of your team.

Payman Langroudi: Well, that’s interesting.

Andy Acton: Because I think.

Payman Langroudi: People are trying to stay away from the practice.

Andy Acton: I think [01:16:15] that’s a really good indicator of how people feel about coming to work.

Payman Langroudi: That’s interesting. [01:16:20] I was expecting you to say that.

Andy Acton: Yeah, that’s a general business thing. Yeah. But I think you also need. [01:16:25] So if you were a, um, a very heavy, uh, clear [01:16:30] aligner type practice. Yeah, your metrics might be different. Yeah. Yeah, [01:16:35] exactly. So I think, I think, and as a rule, I’m not a massive [01:16:40] fan of KPIs. When you see these reports that go on for pages and pages. No one is reading it. [01:16:45] Not even the person that produced it is reading it. So no one is reading it. So if you can distil [01:16:50] your business down to 2 or 3 things. So in my finance one. [01:16:55]

Payman Langroudi: Well, so.

Andy Acton: I was going to say. So in my finance business, the finance arranges finance for dentists. [01:17:00] We arrange about £200 million a year. We measure one thing the [01:17:05] number of deals we send to a bank in a given month.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:17:10] know from that number how the health of the business is.

Andy Acton: I know from that. I know what [01:17:15] the approval rate of the banks are. I know what the average deal size is. I know how many trees [01:17:20] we had to shake to get that number. And we’ve worked out that’s the one thing we measure. [01:17:25] And as long as that number is within a band, everything fixes itself.

Payman Langroudi: I love that. [01:17:30]

Andy Acton: We’ve got one metric and genuinely, I think there’s a it bothers me a little bit that we’re moving into a realm, [01:17:35] particularly with some of the, um, the financial dashboards that are available. And I’ve spoken [01:17:40] to some of the guys creating them about it. I said, we need to be really careful that we just don’t produce [01:17:45] loads of data and loads of reports and put it in front of the client because they will not read it. [01:17:50] We need to really drill in and find out what are the couple of things they really [01:17:55] need to know. And if that number goes up or down, the impact it has on their business, and [01:18:00] that’s where I think we need to get to. But there’s a danger because it’s becoming easier and easier to access data. [01:18:05] We’re going to drown people in data, but no one’s reading it.

Payman Langroudi: You mentioned Randeep. I think [01:18:10] AI is going to make a difference there you know. Yes. Ai another two three years and [01:18:15] you’ll literally be able to ask it questions about that profit and loss statement. Like good [01:18:20] questions. You know I want to finish it with kind of a quick fire round. [01:18:25] Um, what’s your favourite business book?

Andy Acton: It’s [01:18:30] not an obvious one. Um, it’s, it is business, but it’s [01:18:35] more about life. It’s called greenlights by Matthew McConaughey.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really? Okay.

Andy Acton: And [01:18:40] it’s more, um, philosophy, but the overarching principle [01:18:45] and why it’s called green lights is it’s, um, it’s almost kind of a diary of his life, but he talks [01:18:50] about things that happen in his life. Um, some good, some bad. But the point about [01:18:55] it is, is if something goes wrong, it still might be a green light. And I [01:19:00] think in life and in business, quite often, we’re very quick to draw conclusions on whether things go well [01:19:05] or not because something didn’t go well in that moment. It, it still might [01:19:10] be a green light because it might lead you on to something else. And it’s really helped me because [01:19:15] in business, you know, it’s very easy to talk about your successes, but we have failures as well. But quite often [01:19:20] it’s the failures that you really dwell on and you think about and you say, well, why didn’t that work? [01:19:25] How could we do it again? And it was a really good book in helping you reframe that [01:19:30] whilst you think it was bad news. It might not be because [01:19:35] it might lead you onto onto something else, which is.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got an example in your own business like that where [01:19:40] that’s.

Andy Acton: Yeah. I mean, in the early days, um, we came up with a service [01:19:45] for dental practice owners, which was kind of a very early [01:19:50] days buying group. And we negotiated with lots of suppliers [01:19:55] and we said, you know, will you provide a discount? And they said, yes, we will. We’ll provide a discount and we’ll provide you with [01:20:00] with, you know, 10% on this and 15% on that. It’s brilliant. So we had this, this service we produced and [01:20:05] we went out to people and, and we offered them discounts. And then we realised that quite early on that, um, [01:20:10] because we did some mystery shop coding, we called some of the suppliers and we said, what’s the best deal you can do? [01:20:15] And they were offering direct better discounts than they’d given us and told us it was [01:20:20] an exclusive. We’re like, right, okay. So, so in that moment, all the work that had gone into designing [01:20:25] this and it was time and cost and everything else, um, was a complete waste of time [01:20:30] because we were being screwed over by them offering better, better deals directly. So that [01:20:35] was, was, was kind of a red light because it stopped and it died. However, as a result [01:20:40] of what we’re doing many years later, the deals we strike with people that we have partnerships [01:20:45] with look way different than they would have before. If we hadn’t have gone through that process, [01:20:50] we would have known that what goes on in the back end, which is [01:20:55] quite useful. So and that was a that was a 20 year old, that was a 20 year old lesson. And back then [01:21:00] it was something that really hurt because we put a lot, a lot of work into it. Yet now [01:21:05] building the principals club, it’s being built very differently because we now know that we want things from [01:21:10] people that genuinely are of value and genuinely can’t be found somewhere else.

Payman Langroudi: Who would you [01:21:15] say is the big business influence for you? It’s [01:21:20] someone you admire. In business.

Andy Acton: I admire a lot. [01:21:25] Walt Disney.

Payman Langroudi: Oh yeah.

Andy Acton: Walt Disney.

Payman Langroudi: Experience. Experiential.

Andy Acton: Yeah [01:21:30] it is. And I think it’s easy to see, um, the things that he’s done now [01:21:35] through kind of 20, 25 eyes, but he was kind of doing [01:21:40] this stuff back in the 60s. Yeah. And I just think that.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an incredible point, that one.

Andy Acton: Yeah. And [01:21:45] it’s easy when you see things today and you’re like, yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah. But his [01:21:50] whole concept of trying to create an experience and an event [01:21:55] and it being structured in a way which meant it was so accessible, [01:22:00] was, was a powerful thing. And he would go all [01:22:05] in on everything. Like the, the guy literally was on the verge of going bust for most of his life, [01:22:10] right? Oh, he was there was no, there was never a plan B, he went in and everything, but [01:22:15] I just his whole concept when he opened his theme parks. Is this like one price [01:22:20] you go in, you access it all because prior to that, the, the, [01:22:25] the amusement experience was you turned up and you paid for [01:22:30] every individual ride. And he was saying for the average family, he didn’t like the fact that that was a really expensive [01:22:35] way and it was limiting. And he said, why can’t we have a system where you kind of pay [01:22:40] and everybody gets access to it so that as a as a principal, I love the idea of how do you make [01:22:45] things more available to to other people. But he was a real pioneer.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the incredible [01:22:50] IP as well, right? Yeah. When you think about how old is it? When was [01:22:55] it 40s. 30. When was it?

Andy Acton: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck came out. Yeah yeah yeah. And then if [01:23:00] today you said to me, I’ve managed to do a brand deal collab with Disney [01:23:05] for sticking Mickey Mouse on a Dental mirror or something. I’d be like, wow. And we’re [01:23:10] like 60 years old, 80 years on from that initial cartoon. Yeah, the [01:23:15] IP is amazing.

Andy Acton: Oh, and they, they have a thing where for, for new people that [01:23:20] join the Disney company. I don’t know if they still do it, but they had a thing where for the first five days, [01:23:25] you basically went on a course and it was called traditions. And they just talked about, [01:23:30] you know, the family, the heritage, the how they do things, the way they do things. But [01:23:35] the business is still, it’s still a massive business and it’s still rolling based on, [01:23:40] those early foundations. And that kind of goes back to that kind of culture that it can [01:23:45] transcend generations. But you need.

Payman Langroudi: Company. Yeah, but good to great.

Andy Acton: Yeah. Yeah, [01:23:50] exactly. But you need to put it in, in, in the early days when, when people buy [01:23:55] an existing business. Don’t, don’t throw it in the bin like the [01:24:00] what’s already been created. There’s some really good stuff in there. And going back to that, that situation [01:24:05] where too much was changed too soon. It’s about trying to work out well, what are the really good things [01:24:10] and how do I build on the good things? You know, that that how do I get it from good to great? And [01:24:15] it should be a compounding effect of lots of good things happening.

Payman Langroudi: I think [01:24:20] one of the things I took from good to great was that, you know, to even when you when [01:24:25] it hurts you to improve, you know, and, and so many [01:24:30] times that comes up with us, you know, like we’re trying to take the latest version of enlightened, trying [01:24:35] to take 80% of the plastic we’ve taken out of it. Right? And that was [01:24:40] so painful. I can’t tell you how painful that was. You know, because just to make a trade case. Yeah. [01:24:45] Out of aluminium. Yeah. When there’s thousands of plastic ones, you could just call, call [01:24:50] a guy in Italy and he’ll send you 10,000 with your logo on it. Now we’re making a brand [01:24:55] new thing. Yeah, but but that notion of sometimes progress is going to hurt. [01:25:00] Often it’s going to hurt. But but you know, to keep to do it to do it. Yeah. The [01:25:05] thing is.

Andy Acton: Quite often in those situations, it’s going to hurt in the short term. Yeah. But if you [01:25:10] don’t do it, the hurt in the long term.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly, exactly. That’s the reason. Yeah. [01:25:15] What about Dental Leaders who’ve inspired you? I mean, whether it’s dentists, whether [01:25:20] it’s the industry as a whole who stands out as people who’ve inspired you as [01:25:25] like sort of good stories, good people.

Andy Acton: I think there’s, there’s probably, [01:25:30] I mean, they’re sort of fallen into different categories. Uh, I think somebody [01:25:35] who always has an eye on trying to better the profession is Drew Sharp? [01:25:40] I think Dentinal tubules. I think the work he does there um at [01:25:45] times I think for him it feels like he’s pushing water uphill. I think he feels like he’s trying to do something that [01:25:50] not a lot of other people are trying to do. But I’ve been to their conferences. I’ve been fortunate [01:25:55] to sit in some of their kind of educational sessions. He brings a different a different [01:26:00] sort of energy. And it’s funny because one of the very first events I went to was down in Brighton. It’s one of the Congress, [01:26:05] and he’d invited me down and I kind of worked hard to kind of get to know people across dentistry. And I walked [01:26:10] into a room of 200 people, and I looked around and I thought, I don’t know anybody in this room. Like, [01:26:15] what are you what are you doing? Who are you drawing into this room that [01:26:20] is different from the sort of people that I meet on a week by week basis. And he [01:26:25] brought in people who, um, were very keen, um, [01:26:30] to develop themselves and develop clinically. And I think that’s a slightly different [01:26:35] set to what lots of other people are doing. So I think that that side of things I think is, is [01:26:40] quite incredible. Um, I think from the, the business side of things, [01:26:45] um, someone that I admire a lot and, and kind [01:26:50] of pushes and pushes hard and does it quite openly is love and [01:26:55] love again as well.

Payman Langroudi: And I like.

Andy Acton: Love. So he’s just opened his sunny hill practice and the, [01:27:00] the care and the attention and bringing people on the journey is, [01:27:05] is great. And also he’s got chairside running, running as well.

Payman Langroudi: I love that.

Andy Acton: He, he does [01:27:10] it, um, in quite a different way. He’s not your typical dentist [01:27:15] in terms of how he goes about it. Um, and I like that, I like the way [01:27:20] he does it. Um, and he shares what he’s doing genuinely [01:27:25] for the betterment of the profession. But from a business, from a business perspective.

Payman Langroudi: They call [01:27:30] it building public, right? Yeah. But what I love about him is the humility he has when he comes and asks the question. [01:27:35] And there’s a real humility in it. You know, in, in, in this industry, [01:27:40] you can get hubris. Yes. Yeah. And someone like him could [01:27:45] he could be sort of, you know, raised a few million pounds. Chairside. He’s yeah, known [01:27:50] quite well around, but the humility is like 100% humility. It’s a beautiful thing. Yeah. [01:27:55] You know, and then in that situation, you you want to share with him as well? Yeah.

Andy Acton: Yeah. And [01:28:00] that building public when you do it looking through the rear view mirror, it’s really cool. But [01:28:05] when you’re doing it in real time, you don’t know how it’s going to play out. Yeah. There was a, there was a program on [01:28:10] Netflix many years ago, um, about the football team. Sunderland and Sunderland were [01:28:15] in the Premiership and they got demoted to the championship and they did a fly on the wall documentary [01:28:20] called Sunderland Til I die. And what they thought they were going to be filming was their bounce back into [01:28:25] the Premiership. What they actually filmed was a further demotion from the Championship to [01:28:30] League One. So that whole thing about, you know, doing it in real time, I think they genuinely [01:28:35] thought it was going to be this, this amazing story of bouncing straight back up and actually went down [01:28:40] a further leg. The pain for the city of Sunderland, who are passionate bunch [01:28:45] of people was was unbearable. And whilst it made great viewing [01:28:50] you doing things like that in real time, there’s always risk attached to it. So I think whenever you you play [01:28:55] it out and you never quite know what the ending is going to be, it brings an edge that just makes it from [01:29:00] a viewers point of view, makes it makes it quite interesting. And my last person you Payman.

Payman Langroudi: Let me.

Andy Acton: Know [01:29:05] because no, seriously, you want to gloss over this because you’ll get embarrassed. But but but genuinely, [01:29:10] we used to do our podcast ontology and you’ve got your businesses, but [01:29:15] when you started Dental Leaders, you sat down with me and you were like, you should do this. You know, it would be [01:29:20] really good fun. There aren’t many people doing it, and it would have been easy for somebody who’d [01:29:25] kind of cornered that market and had a niche to have just carried on doing that. And not only [01:29:30] sure. You literally gave me the playbook on what to do, which was completely [01:29:35] unnecessary. But that that, that shows how you are in that we [01:29:40] can all do well. It’s that whole adage, isn’t it, that imagine if there was one star in the sky, how dark the sky [01:29:45] would be, the.

Payman Langroudi: Scarcity.

Andy Acton: The fact there’s.

Payman Langroudi: Billions.

Andy Acton: Of stars up there, the sky looks beautiful [01:29:50] and you are very generous.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t expect you to say that.

Andy Acton: No, no, but I know you’re trying to shut [01:29:55] me down and you’re trying to edit it out this episode, and you’re not allowed to, but genuinely you are. And there’s [01:30:00] you and I haven’t. There are lots of people who have that. [01:30:05] And it just shows that dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: This is a friendly community. It’s full of good people. [01:30:10] We’re very lucky in that sense.

Andy Acton: Yeah, it’s full of good people.

Payman Langroudi: At the same time, it’s a small world. Yes. And people [01:30:15] need to understand that too. Yeah. If you do something untoward in dentistry, it’s very [01:30:20] likely the whole community will find out. And so, you know, it’s a double edged sword, but. [01:30:25]

Andy Acton: It is it’s, it’s an ecosystem. And actually we all need to do well. Yeah, [01:30:30] because if any, because it’s actually a relatively small market. Very small. And if [01:30:35] any part of it wobbled or fractured or broke, we’ve got a problem. So yeah. [01:30:40] So banks, if if the banks suddenly didn’t love dentistry anymore. Yeah. Yeah. That [01:30:45] stifles growth. If people didn’t feel confident in buying practice. We’ve got a problem. If [01:30:50] um one of the larger corporates suffered a problem, the ripple effect of that [01:30:55] through the the money world would be unbearable. Yeah. There are lots of. So whilst [01:31:00] for me, you know, we talked about kind of the corporate and independent side of things. And I’m not, I’m not anti-corporate, [01:31:05] I’m just pro independent. But we, we [01:31:10] need every element of, of the profession to do well. And we should, we should [01:31:15] be looking out for one another. You know, there is enough business to go around, but we should be looking out for one another to make sure [01:31:20] that as a as a collective, as a sector, everyone’s being supported [01:31:25] because we, we all we all get elevated when good things happen.

Payman Langroudi: I think, you know, it’s it’s [01:31:30] a very common story, right? If the practice runs out of something, they’ll run over to the practice across [01:31:35] the road and and invariably they’ll get that thing, they’ll lend them because, you know, we’ve all been the same [01:31:40] thing with course organisers. You know, when some engine motor doesn’t turn up, I [01:31:45] call up a competitor in terms of courses and say, can you help? And they will. They [01:31:50] will help. So it’s super important.

Andy Acton: I think it struck me that during Covid, the amount of practices [01:31:55] when they had their PPE went round to their local hospital and just donated their [01:32:00] PPE.

Payman Langroudi: Um, the other thing, do you think when dentists don’t have to turn up every day from eight [01:32:05] till six? Do you remember the amount of content that came out of dentistry? You know, [01:32:10] the dentists are capable people. Yeah. They’re just so busy doing dentistry. Yeah, [01:32:15] that’s the thing.

Andy Acton: Yeah, it’s a very it’s a very time intensive time. Hungary. [01:32:20] But but personal thing, you, you you work with your hands.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s finish it with the final [01:32:25] question from your podcast.

Andy Acton: What for you?

Payman Langroudi: For you.

Andy Acton: For me? [01:32:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Because your, your podcast used to end with if you had a fly on the wall moment.

Andy Acton: A fly on [01:32:35] the wall moment, where.

Payman Langroudi: Which moment would you want to be the fly on the wall?

Andy Acton: I’d [01:32:40] probably like to be in [01:32:45] the changing room when Manchester United won the [01:32:50] treble, so they won the Champions League final and they were.

Payman Langroudi: Are you a big fan? [01:32:55]

Andy Acton: Yeah, yeah, I support them. I’m at the wrong end of the country, but I, I support [01:33:00] them. There’s been good decades and not so good decades. But I’d love to have been back in that changing [01:33:05] room when they were all but out of it. And then two very late goals [01:33:10] came in just to feel the energy and the mood. I think as [01:33:15] a as a, a person manager, I think Fergie’s unbelievable. I [01:33:20] think trying to manage those egos and testosterone and everything else. [01:33:25] Oh, they are, they’re incredibly well paid, but just children.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I was [01:33:30] I was in a bar in Cardiff. My friend, he’s a massive big player in Cardiff. Not not football, [01:33:35] just a big player. And he said oh look that kid, that kid, that kid. The Cardiff just [01:33:40] paid £2 million for him or something. I’m looking at him, he’s like literally as a teenager. [01:33:45] It’s wild. He’s a teenager. Yeah. And so like, you know, you’re having to manage that [01:33:50] situation as well as a child. Crazy millionaire child. Yeah.

Andy Acton: But [01:33:55] I’d love to have felt what that what that would have been like in that moment. You know, something that, um, [01:34:00] kind of had never been done in the modern era. And just to see how that [01:34:05] those group of people, how they react to that because quite often you hear.

Payman Langroudi: The troubles, the league, the [01:34:10] FA Cup and the European Cup.

Andy Acton: Uefa Champions League. Yeah, I remember that.

Payman Langroudi: But but but.

Andy Acton: Because it’s funny [01:34:15] because um, Jonny Wilkinson famously kicked um the goal when [01:34:20] England beat Australia to win the World Cup. Um, many, many years ago, back in the [01:34:25] early 2000. And he says that the, the feeling of that, the feeling [01:34:30] of that success had gone by the time he hit the changing room. So we assume it lives these [01:34:35] these moments of glory live forever. But it would just be interesting to know that [01:34:40] when they got back into the changing room.

Payman Langroudi: Well, well, well, you know, the difference between a [01:34:45] great sportsman and a good sportsman is, you know, like, uh, sometimes [01:34:50] you’ll watch a tennis player and he’s like, match point down and then he [01:34:55] might serve an ace. Yeah, yeah. And it is, you know, like, you know, you can’t get high [01:35:00] on the highs. And at the same time, you can’t get low on the lows because [01:35:05] that’s what makes them great that they can delete what just happened. And the next rally [01:35:10] is a brand new rally. You know, me and you have difficulty separating. So I’m sure [01:35:15] actually that, you know, the opposite effect happens as well.

Andy Acton: A very narrow.

Payman Langroudi: Band. Yeah. They don’t get the pleasure. [01:35:20] Because if you get high on the pleasure, you’ll get high on the pain, low on the pain. You know what I mean?

Andy Acton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Perhaps [01:35:25] that is interesting.

Andy Acton: Perhaps that is it.

Payman Langroudi: So, so lovely having you as always. Thank you for being so [01:35:30] easy talking to you.

Andy Acton: It’s been a wonderful conversation.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much, I enjoyed it. Me [01:35:35] too.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [01:35:40] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:35:45] hosts Payman Langroudi [01:35:50] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this [01:35:55] far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for [01:36:00] actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because [01:36:05] I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing [01:36:10] and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of [01:36:15] it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.