Payman Langroudi: Dental educational events need a shake up? I’m really happy to announce that we’ll be doing [00:00:05] a new event in June called The Minimalist Conference at Ministry of Sound, [00:00:10] where we’re going to have 30 speakers and two parties. It starts at 2:00 [00:00:15] and finishes at 2:00 as well on the 13th of June, which is Saturday. [00:00:20] Check out the Instagram page at minimalist dot join [00:00:25] us.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:40] hosts Payman Langroudi [00:00:45] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome [00:00:50] Ashley King and Sophie Lovitt onto the podcast from Pearl AI. [00:00:55] Um, nice to have you. Finally, both of you. Would you both do [00:01:00] at Pearl? What’s your job title and what’s yours?

Ashley King: Do you want. Job title [00:01:05] or what we actually do? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Go on. Both.

Ashley King: Well, I mean, this is the I [00:01:10] would say probably everyone. Everyone says this about working [00:01:15] at Start-ups that you wear a million hats. Yeah. So I lead partnerships internationally, [00:01:20] but it’s so much more than that. I would say beyond that, a lot of go to market [00:01:25] strategy. For example, right now I just came back from Australia. We’re kicking off [00:01:30] there. We’ve been there for a couple of years, but now we’re really focusing on it. So looking for hire, getting new [00:01:35] partners out there with integrations, etc.. Sophie. Sophie, I feel like your role has changed [00:01:40] a million times at Pearl, but nonetheless, you’re very valuable.

Sophie Lovett: Who am I today? Um, yeah, [00:01:45] actually, Australia’s great, isn’t it? We kind of went into all markets and we’ve stripped it back. [00:01:50] And I know you’re working across every single time zone at the moment. And so I’ve just changed. [00:01:55] My roles just changed. I’m now doing the international market development. [00:02:00] I’m leading the team there. So this is exciting, but it doesn’t [00:02:05] mean that I’m not doing any of the old things I was doing. As Ashley said, we’re we’re [00:02:10] a Start-Up within a Start-Up. So we’re doing a lot. We’re doing the sales, we’re doing the go to market. We’re doing [00:02:15] the partnerships, but we have a fantastic team behind us.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:02:20] both of you on a plane a lot.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. I’d say Ashley’s got more air miles than [00:02:25] me. Yeah.

Ashley King: I, when I, when I was flying back actually yesterday from, we were at [00:02:30] a wedding in Greece for one of our partners that we work with. And it was fantastic. [00:02:35] But I, I was thinking, how many hours have I been on a plane in the last month and I calculated [00:02:40] it’s over 100. Wow. Yeah. Which is insane.

Sophie Lovett: You did something quite smart, didn’t [00:02:45] you? You went to the to Australia and then the US, and then you’ve ended up back in the middle. So [00:02:50] it’s almost like you’ve outdone the jet lag.

Ashley King: Yeah. I don’t even my body doesn’t know what time [00:02:55] it is. Sometimes I wake up in the hotel room and I’m like, where? Where am I?

Payman Langroudi: When you go somewhere, do you do you [00:03:00] strictly keep it as work or do you like.

Ashley King: No, no.

Payman Langroudi: I give it a couple of days either side or.

Ashley King: I try to [00:03:05] write. I don’t I think I don’t want to look back at this time and regret having to [00:03:10] go to all these pretty cool places and not do things beyond that. Another really great thing, [00:03:15] and Sophie and I have done a lot of work travel together because we work on some of the same things, partners [00:03:20] specifically, and you really get embedded into the culture [00:03:25] when you’re going to see someone that works in a different country, like Norway is a great example. [00:03:30] Um, I knew nothing about Norway and I feel like I’ve really, truly started to understand [00:03:35] like how Norwegians think about certain things, their culture, their differences between, [00:03:40] you know, other, even Nordic countries.

Payman Langroudi: Norwegians are.

Ashley King: Cool. They’re cool. Yeah. And like they show [00:03:45] you around, you have a like guaranteed tour guide when you’re going for work. People love to show. [00:03:50]

Payman Langroudi: You, right? It’s different to real tourism, like to normal tourism because it’s a bit [00:03:55] the difference between like getting an Airbnb and a hotel.

Ashley King: This is it. Yeah, that’s exactly right.

Payman Langroudi: You sort of feel more [00:04:00] part of it.

Ashley King: Yeah. I’m like, I know, I know, I’m down with the Norwegians, you know, like I know what their vibe is. [00:04:05]

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, but they don’t let everybody in. That’s the thing, you know, every country’s different, especially in the Nordics. They’re [00:04:10] so different even between Norway and Finland and Sweden. And, uh, there’s definitely [00:04:15] a feeling when you’re not quite in. And then when you’re in, it’s such a good feeling. And yeah. [00:04:20]

Ashley King: I think the ticket there is, at least in Norway, it was going to karaoke. Uh, that [00:04:25] seems to be my ticket with partners is like, let’s do a karaoke night and just [00:04:30] maybe take a few tequila shots.

Payman Langroudi: What makes the decision as to whether you work with a distributor [00:04:35] or whether you set up an office and it’s like a company owned office?

Ashley King: Yeah. Um, I mean, how do you decide [00:04:40] we’re running so lean? And also we don’t, like I said, we don’t know the culture [00:04:45] of even dentists and what they’re looking for. Germany, great example. They’re very [00:04:50] scared of AI in that country. So we don’t speak the language. So right now internationally, [00:04:55] our default is distributor.

Payman Langroudi: But not here, for instance, not here. So [00:05:00] why is that? I mean, how did that work out?

Ashley King: Oh man. I mean what would you say Sophie?

Sophie Lovett: Because we’re [00:05:05] here. We’ve got we’ve got a team here. Um, and you know, it’s English [00:05:10] speaking. And so this was just a place where we could kind of have a natural [00:05:15] hub. But we’ve realised with that some of the nuances of the different countries that it’s really, really tricky. [00:05:20] Like you said, we thought we could just go to Germany and kind of replicate the strategy. Um, but [00:05:25] what works is just not one size fits all. And for example, our Netherlands dealer, we, [00:05:30] I don’t even know how we got in with him, but he is fantastic. Um, [00:05:35] but we, we just kind of have the strategy down here. We work really well with distributors [00:05:40] and suppliers here, but.

Ashley King: I think also time zones, like simply for the fact that [00:05:45] our, our main office is in LA. So working with Finland, for example. [00:05:50] It’s like a ten hour time difference. It’s kind of impossible to be successful doing that.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:05:55] I had I had Officer Tan, who’s the founder, episode 203 about [00:06:00] must have been two and a half years ago. Yeah. And anyone who wants to know how Pearl came [00:06:05] about needs to listen to that episode. But let’s just summarise what what is [00:06:10] the product? It’s an AI enhanced radiograph interpreter. [00:06:15] Is that correct?

Sophie Lovett: I mean you couldn’t have said it better. Yeah. [00:06:20] Essentially what it’s doing is it is looking at radiographs. And it’s using [00:06:25] millions and millions of pieces of data and data points to be able to interpret greyscale, [00:06:30] to look at all sorts of variables and have a look at different pathologies. So [00:06:35] in a matter of seconds, you take the radiograph and the AI is going to appear. So we’re looking at not [00:06:40] just caries. We’re looking at bone loss. We’re looking at periapical radiolucency [00:06:45] and we’re looking at nerves. We’re looking at all sorts of different things. We’re We’re looking at being able to compare it over time as well. [00:06:50] But it’s here to help enhance the clinician. Right. [00:06:55] So, um, it’s like spell check. You know, it’s there as a support mechanism, [00:07:00] but where the human eye is limited to, I think 50 shades [00:07:05] of grey. Um, this can see hundreds, thousands. So it’s [00:07:10] really there as a second opinion, an assistant tool for reading those radiographs. [00:07:15]

Payman Langroudi: But a communication tool too. Right. I mean, I don’t know. I haven’t practised [00:07:20] for a few years now, but you that sort of blank face of a patient when you show them an [00:07:25] X-ray.

Sophie Lovett: Right.

Payman Langroudi: And people pretend to understand what you’re saying, but it’s very difficult. Yeah. [00:07:30] Very difficult to see what’s going on. So would you say it’s more of a communication tool [00:07:35] or more of a diagnostic tool or both or what? What’s the story?

Ashley King: I would say it’s more patient [00:07:40] education. Yeah. And I think dentists forget that [00:07:45] non-clinical people, when they look at an X-ray, we have no clue what [00:07:50] is going on. Yeah, and I’m guilty of this even in my life, talking about AI with my friends, I’m [00:07:55] like, oh, well, okay, I thought this was, you know, beginner level knowledge. [00:08:00] And then I talked to my friends about certain AI tools that I’m using. And they’re just like, minds [00:08:05] are blown. So I think it’s very easy to forget when you’re deep into a field [00:08:10] that actually this is like, I don’t know, rocket science to [00:08:15] people, essentially.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: So my friend came home once and she [00:08:20] said to me, because she’s my old housemate, she said, my dentist has given me a filling. [00:08:25] I said, your dentist hasn’t given you a filling. You know, you’re not flossing. Uh, [00:08:30] uh, you know, you’re not maybe brushing the right amount of time, not using a fluoridated toothpaste. [00:08:35] You’ve kind of given yourself a filling. I then showed her the AI, not her own [00:08:40] radiograph, but just kind of an example. And it was that real eureka moment. There’s [00:08:45] a fantastic dentist in the north. Doctor Kunal Rai from Meliora Dental, and he posted something [00:08:50] yesterday on Instagram of an area of decay that hadn’t quite gone [00:08:55] past the enamel yet. So it was showing up on pearl as this yellow [00:09:00] blob. And then he put up a post saying the patient didn’t accept [00:09:05] treatment. Um, so he was looking at early preventative treatments. And now this area of decay had progressed [00:09:10] past the enamel into the dentine and beyond. So now the patient is [00:09:15] accepting treatment. But last year they hadn’t seen that the pearl, they hadn’t seen the colours. They hadn’t seen the tooth part segmentation. [00:09:20] So they just didn’t get it. So they didn’t work early enough to do something that would [00:09:25] have helped preserve the lifespan of that tooth.

Payman Langroudi: And then what about what are the [00:09:30] problems with it? I mean, false positives. False negatives.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean what’s [00:09:35] the rate of that? Have you got a rate of of errors that it makes.

Ashley King: It’s dependent on the image quality of course. [00:09:40] Yeah. So it’s hard to quantify that, but I mean, anyone that uses [00:09:45] AI knows that it doesn’t always get it right. Sure. So I say it’s like your GPS or [00:09:50] sorry, you call it satnav here. Um, it tells you where it thinks [00:09:55] you should go, but you’re still the one driving the car, which is why it’s called second opinion.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. [00:10:00] Um, so we have some of the most fantastic minds at Pearl. [00:10:05] So we’ve got a computer vision team. They’ve just improved our caries model by [00:10:10] 13%. So when we’re looking at provided [00:10:15] the quality of the image is acceptable, we’re looking at about 9,394% [00:10:20] accuracy. But then within that with, as I said, we’ve just improved that by another [00:10:25] 13%. And so we’ve got some fantastic minds working on it. But the reason that it’s [00:10:30] not here to replace is because it’s not perfect.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: That’s, you [00:10:35] know, it’s always going to have to work alongside a clinician and equally, you know, do you want a here is your [00:10:40] report from a computer? No. It has to still be delivered by the clinician. I like [00:10:45] the fact it’s not perfect because if you ask me, this is controversial. I’m going to say it.

Ashley King: I [00:10:50] like.

Sophie Lovett: It. I hope, I hope no one’s listening. I personally wouldn’t let [00:10:55] students have it straight out of university. I’m sorry.

Ashley King: That’s contrarian.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. [00:11:00] Because I think people really need to cut their teeth on being able to read radiographs as well [00:11:05] and being critical of the AI. The reason that we [00:11:10] have approvals and we have certifications is because it has been proven [00:11:15] that when you work with the AI, the clinicians, the clinician, and, you know, [00:11:20] together they work better than if it was just one or separately. But I do really [00:11:25] think it’s important that we don’t just fully rely on something. Um, yeah. [00:11:30] So that’s, that’s, that’s my controversial opinion.

Ashley King: I, I will, I agree with you [00:11:35] to a certain level. So I think that it’s a good, It shouldn’t be the default. So for [00:11:40] example, now in university, everyone’s writing their essays, right? With ChatGPT or whatever [00:11:45] their LLM is. And personally, I wrote some very [00:11:50] long, robust research papers in uni. And I think that it taught me a lot. [00:11:55] So but I wish that I had ChatGPT to do two things. [00:12:00] One, like spell check and just maybe give some suggestions, but two, to do [00:12:05] the sources because that was the worst. But I think if I was a clinician that was just entering [00:12:10] the field, I would use it after I looked at it first, essentially as like you said, a spell check. [00:12:15]

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. And actually, I find that most clinicians are quite competitive anyway, which is great. You know, what [00:12:20] do you got to do. Get four A’s at a level now to become a dentist? Three. Three. Yeah. [00:12:25] Um so you know, they’re pretty good anyway and they’re quite competitive. So where [00:12:30] it takes ten 20s anyway for the AI to overlay, a lot of clinicians are [00:12:35] kind of competing with themselves. And then, you know, it comes through and it’s, oh, gosh, you know. Yeah, yeah, [00:12:40] it’s a.

Ashley King: Good way to think about.

Sophie Lovett: It. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s a funny thing. Yeah. Because [00:12:45] what will happen to society because of AI is the [00:12:50] first time you can’t tell in 3 or 4 years time what life is going to be like.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, really. [00:12:55] But what about the industrial revolution? I mean, we.

Ashley King: Would have the internet when it came out. We didn’t know Uber [00:13:00] would exist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. But the rate of it is really quite crazy. My daughter says she wants to be a dentist [00:13:05] and she’s 16. And I’m saying by the time she becomes a dentist eight [00:13:10] years time, surely a robot’s going to be doing it, you know?

Ashley King: I think so, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Man, what does [00:13:15] it take? It takes it takes a brain. The brain’s already better than ours. Yeah. It takes AIS. [00:13:20] It gets X-ray vision thing going on. And then. Are you telling me they can’t make hands better than these? [00:13:25] They’ll make hands that can rotate. 360 hands come out of their hands. You know what I mean?

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, but you still got, you [00:13:30] know, where you look at that in surgery, where you’ve got people doing remote surgery, even from different [00:13:35] countries. Yeah. Yeah. You know, those robot arms are so much better than the, you know, the human shaking [00:13:40] hand. But again, I just see our relationship with [00:13:45] AI, with technology improving at the moment. We’re just we’re in the dating [00:13:50] zone with, with this sort of tech. And we don’t know whether they want to go steady with [00:13:55] us or whether they just want to carry on. You know, it is we’re all a bit unsure, but I [00:14:00] think that as we progress, we’ll find our relationship sweet spot with AI. If we don’t, that’s [00:14:05] a human problem. But do you know what’s making AI humans?

Ashley King: So I think the pendulum [00:14:10] is actually going to swing in terms of.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, you’re right.

Ashley King: People are going.

Payman Langroudi: To be in person. [00:14:15] Stuff will be, this is it. So we’re doing this event at Ministry of Sound, whatever. Yeah. But in [00:14:20] the same way as now, the pendulum swung like people want vinyl records.

Ashley King: Yeah, exactly. [00:14:25]

Payman Langroudi: It’s a it’s a niche thing. Yeah. So as a niche thing, yeah, I hear you.

Ashley King: I [00:14:30] don’t think that I don’t think it’s niche to want real human interaction. I think that’s just [00:14:35] how we biologically are. So I even think about going to a restaurant, right? [00:14:40] Uh, if there were robots serving versus, you know, [00:14:45] and sorry, you know, serving is once again another UK term, as we say in the US, robot waitresses [00:14:50] versus, you know, real waitresses. I’m going to choose the one with the real, even [00:14:55] if the robot ones are more efficient because I want to be around people. [00:15:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: People buy from people. People buy from.

Payman Langroudi: People. I wouldn’t be surprised if my kids [00:15:05] married a robot.

Sophie Lovett: Well, that’s probably, well.

Ashley King: Not parenting male loneliness [00:15:10] epidemic. So maybe if you have any.

Payman Langroudi: Because like you look at you look at your discovery.

Sophie Lovett: I hope [00:15:15] you’re very proud.

Payman Langroudi: Listen, you look at your discover page. You look at your discover page. That goddamn thing knows you [00:15:20] better than you know yourself. Yeah, but so, so.

Ashley King: Scary thought if.

Payman Langroudi: The robot, if the robot [00:15:25] knows you better than you know yourself, like knows exactly what you want, and then you put some pair of glasses on and it looks like [00:15:30] whatever you want it to look like.

Sophie Lovett: And would you marry yourself.

Payman Langroudi: If [00:15:35] the programming is perfect? Yeah. Then then why wouldn’t you? You [00:15:40] know, in a way, it’s a bit sad to say.

Sophie Lovett: But I just think it’s the same.

Payman Langroudi: As my children. My grandchildren. [00:15:45]

Sophie Lovett: Maybe your grandchildren will be. And we’re all very proud of them. And what [00:15:50] a great ceremony. And I hope it’s not too expensive for you. But, I mean, you could say, [00:15:55] you know, why didn’t the people who invented the wheel fall in love with the wheel? You know, we all fall in love with [00:16:00] some people do. But, you know, it’s just people are intrinsically [00:16:05] linked to people when we all saw each other.

Payman Langroudi: Have you enabled voice on ChatGPT [00:16:10] or Gemini? You can have a two hour conversation with.

Ashley King: Oh yeah, I mean, I do sometimes. [00:16:15]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Me too. Yeah.

Ashley King: Absolutely. I did before this podcast.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve never done that.

Sophie Lovett: So I, [00:16:20] I always talk to it. Yeah. But I listened to an AI podcast [00:16:25] to see if I could listen to it. And it sounds so real, but it’s [00:16:30] so not. There’s just something about human.

Payman Langroudi: I know it’s very early days.

Ashley King: I [00:16:35] think there’s something like esoteric spiritual that you.

Sophie Lovett: Can’t.

Ashley King: Explain [00:16:40] when it comes to human connection. I don’t think.

Payman Langroudi: Are we going to get to God, though? It’s [00:16:45] a bit early in the podcast.

Sophie Lovett: Payman always finds [00:16:50] God.

Ashley King: I mean, you know, there’s something bigger than us. We don’t know everything. [00:16:55] We don’t know why we’re here. So I think there may be unexplainable neurobiological. [00:17:00] They might be explainable as well. But you’re right.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right, you’re right. We don’t know everything. That’s for sure. That’s for sure. [00:17:05]

Sophie Lovett: Can I just touch on that? Payman. Do you think there’s something bigger, bigger than us? Do you think there’s a [00:17:10] sort of higher.

Payman Langroudi: Higher energy? Whatever.

Ashley King: Oh, yeah. We had this conversation in a cab in. [00:17:15]

Sophie Lovett: This.

Ashley King: Conversation after the dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Show me. Every time we meet, we talk, [00:17:20] we talk about. We talk about God. Um, yeah. Listen.

Sophie Lovett: We [00:17:25] love.

Payman Langroudi: Listen, listen, listen. There is. There’s definitely something else other than this. This. Yeah, there’s [00:17:30] something else. But I think it’s more like, you know, doors of perception kind of thing. Yeah. That, you know, we [00:17:35] can right now perceive some stuff. We can’t see all the radio waves [00:17:40] and UV rays going on. So those things are here, but we can’t see them.

Ashley King: So the [00:17:45] 3D reality.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Ashley King: So what we see.

Payman Langroudi: But but the question of is there good and bad. [00:17:50] That’s where I sort of fall over. Yeah. Is there good and evil?

Sophie Lovett: I think we got really existential. [00:17:55] And I think this is probably you know, it takes us back to why do clinicians want [00:18:00] to use Perl? And I think you can use AI, or you can use Perl, or you can use whatever [00:18:05] for good or evil. You know, you can totally sit back and do nothing and [00:18:10] you can, you know, have something that’s a support. But actually everything works better when you have a good [00:18:15] relationship with it. Um, if I look at the best clinicians, I [00:18:20] know they are using every thing to give everything they possibly can for the patients [00:18:25] to give them the best consent journey, the best treatment planning. And if something [00:18:30] goes wrong, then they’ve done all that they possibly can. Things go wrong. Things go wrong all the time.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting [00:18:35] listening to you. You’re talking and you’re using sort of Dental vocab. Like it’s like [00:18:40] second nature to you. But you’ve only been in dentistry for how long?

Sophie Lovett: Nearly three [00:18:45] years, isn’t it? I mean, I went to my first dental event when I was 18, so.

Payman Langroudi: It feels like you’ve [00:18:50] been in dentistry much longer than that, which is like, I guess a, you know, testament, right. But I [00:18:55] want to ask you, how long have you been in dentistry?

Ashley King: I started in dental [00:19:00] in 2018, so about eight years.

Payman Langroudi: But 2018.

Ashley King: I’ve, I’ve had a few pivots [00:19:05] along the way. I will say Sophie, clinically, she has far more [00:19:10] knowledge than me, but I think I think it’s because she’s just been extremely curious.

Payman Langroudi: But you went with Pearl [00:19:15] 2018. There was no Pearl.

Ashley King: No, I wasn’t I was with my now boss, Erica, [00:19:20] and we were at Voco, which is. I’m sure you’re familiar. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:19:25] so I want to ask. I mean, dentists think we’re so different, you know, to [00:19:30] everyone else. We think it’s a very like nishi. Interesting. It’s different to everything else. What [00:19:35] is it about dentistry that surprised you the most?

Sophie Lovett: I think [00:19:40] especially when we look at the comparison between the US and the UK, the UK [00:19:45] dental market is so small. Everybody knows everybody. [00:19:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s a cottage industry, right?

Sophie Lovett: It is. But it’s it’s tiny. And I think [00:19:55] that’s really exciting because you can work with people you actually really enjoy working with. And [00:20:00] I mean, when I’m at dinner and the dental chat gets [00:20:05] going, I honestly, my dad is just bored to tears with it when I’m with my father, my [00:20:10] poor father.

Payman Langroudi: But because both your brothers.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, I have four brothers. [00:20:15]

Ashley King: And now I come to the family dinner sometimes.

Sophie Lovett: Ashley’s family.

Ashley King: And he’s like, please [00:20:20] don’t invite her. Don’t talk about dentistry.

Sophie Lovett: I was like, oh my goodness me, [00:20:25] what a boring conversation. It’s so exciting. And but it’s because [00:20:30] I think if you look at, um medical and GP [00:20:35] practices and hospital and stuff, I don’t think they’ve got so much choice about what they can do on a day to [00:20:40] day basis. Whereas I think principal dentists and groups, etc. [00:20:45] have a lot more access to technologies, to changes [00:20:50] in a way that’s almost unprecedented. You know.

Payman Langroudi: That’s why he targeted dentistry, [00:20:55] really, because hospitals are, you know, the decision making process is so difficult. Yeah. And [00:21:00] you’re right, GPS are very slow to adopt stuff.

Ashley King: There’s so much more bureaucracy in healthcare and monopolies [00:21:05] and.

Payman Langroudi: Dentists like toys.

Ashley King: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The kind of there’s a lot of dentists [00:21:10] who are early adopters on toys. Yeah. But but you know, what are the reflections about dentists? [00:21:15] What you know, what, what is it about dentists that you sort of didn’t expect.

Ashley King: I [00:21:20] mean, I have a really interesting lens, I think, because I came from the US [00:21:25] and then to here, it’s it’s night and.

Payman Langroudi: Day difference between American and UK. So American is [00:21:30] much more commercial.

Ashley King: It is. And I mean, they go through more schooling. They spend a [00:21:35] lot more money on schooling coming out of, you know, with 250 [00:21:40] K in debt. And then but they’re guaranteed to make a lot more money. Right. [00:21:45] Um, some pulling the standard is 500. Probably, I don’t know. I would have to [00:21:50] look, but you know, millionaires essentially. And I think the reason people go [00:21:55] into dentistry is maybe a little bit different because it is more of [00:22:00] a lucrative career. I know that it’s lucrative here as well. But [00:22:05] in terms of your upside financially, um, it’s [00:22:10] more money focussed. Yeah. So if I’m being honest.

Payman Langroudi: Versus let me tell you an example, we do a composite [00:22:15] course here.

Ashley King: Right?

Payman Langroudi: We do the exact same composite course in Chicago with same teacher, [00:22:20] same content. Yeah. In Chicago we charge twice as much as we charge here. [00:22:25] Um, the every single dentist who comes to the class ends up [00:22:30] buying product. Every single one. Here we’d have to charge half as much. [00:22:35] And, you know, you get you sell a better stuff here and there, but it’s not like there’s not that [00:22:40] that sort of go getter ness from the dentist. Yeah. Um, so I’d [00:22:45] expect like selling Perl much easier in America than here. Is that correct or. No.

Speaker 5: I would say. [00:22:50]

Sophie Lovett: I think people are pretty open to it in the UK.

Ashley King: I think the [00:22:55] value translates in both.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Ashley King: Because it’s not solely about just [00:23:00] direct ROI. While that’s a big piece of it. It [00:23:05] also is about building patient trust and your day to day right. And offloading your workload. [00:23:10] This is a problem that exists in both territories. You know, dentists are running a [00:23:15] business. They didn’t go to dental school to run a business. They went to dental school [00:23:20] to learn how to provide great patient care. And that’s a problem that exists across every [00:23:25] single global market.

Sophie Lovett: You know what? I think you’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Have you sold to American dentists? [00:23:30]

Sophie Lovett: Yes. It’s the easiest thing in the world. Yeah. I just put up the price. No. [00:23:35] Yeah. It’s I don’t know, it’s more.

Ashley King: Expensive in the US.

Sophie Lovett: I think. I think it’s just [00:23:40] because of the British accent. Hello. Would you like to buy something? You know, it could be. Yeah. It’s, [00:23:45] you know, so I, I don’t actually know how easy or hard it is to sell that, but [00:23:50] my experience is it’s fairly easy. But what was.

Ashley King: It Jackie like? Went to a show in [00:23:55] the US and.

Sophie Lovett: He made.

Ashley King: The most sales.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Ashley King: Americans love, you know, an English [00:24:00] accent, which.

Sophie Lovett: Is novelty factor. But I think in the UK where we do really well is you’ve [00:24:05] got people who purchase from us exactly as Ashley said, for the the return, [00:24:10] because it’s a product that very easily brings a return, but actually on the other side, [00:24:15] you have the clinicians who use it because they’re super moral, because [00:24:20] they want to give their patients all of the communication. They don’t ask [00:24:25] about any return on investment. They just want everything that is available for them.

Payman Langroudi: The latest thing.

Sophie Lovett: They [00:24:30] want the latest thing, but they want something that is, yeah, it’s all about the patients for some of them. So that’s [00:24:35] why we have we don’t really have an issue at all with when we speak with UK clinicians.

Ashley King: I would say what [00:24:40] this has happened to me a few times here in the UK when I’ve spoken to clinicians [00:24:45] is they’re doing a lot of NHS dentistry and this is [00:24:50] bad, but there have been a few dentists that have said to me, oh, I don’t want your tool [00:24:55] because, you know, we surface up to 30% more detections. And that means I’m going [00:25:00] to have to provide more treatment to my NHS.

Payman Langroudi: Patients supervised neglect kind of idea. [00:25:05]

Ashley King: Because if I see it on the now, I actually have to address it. So that’s [00:25:10] bad. But there are some dentists that think that way. Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: But the [00:25:15] thing is, though, again, there’s that moral thing of, okay, you may not be able to treat as much, but you’re [00:25:20] seeing far more. So you just have to be a bit more discerning about who you are treating. So it’s not a case of, [00:25:25] you know, I’m blindly not looking. It’s just they just have to treat the most important things. But [00:25:30] that’s, you know, that’s the problem that I see personally, um, [00:25:35] when I’m looking at England, Scotland and Wales as well, the devolved governments and how [00:25:40] different dentistry is and how it’s run in terms of the NHS. And I just don’t see how [00:25:45] it’s sustainable, particularly within England and Wales. And that’s one of the most eye opening things [00:25:50] about working in dental is the difference between private and NHS. I like [00:25:55] the Scottish system as a comparison to the.

Payman Langroudi: Which is a cheaper [00:26:00] item.

Sophie Lovett: It’s a fee per item, you know, it’s not perfect, but if you look at the comparison, if you look at the kind [00:26:05] of general happiness of Scottish clinicians, it seems on par Paul [00:26:10] more elevated. But the crazy thing is, is you’ve got people who know very little [00:26:15] about dentistry, puppeteering, things in the NHS. There was a [00:26:20] talk at the Parliament the other day, and they were talking about giving a few million more pounds to [00:26:25] NHS dentistry, and there was a nice little clap in the room. But a few million pounds is absolutely [00:26:30] nothing in the grand scheme of the NHS. So the biggest eye opening [00:26:35] factor for me is how can we get these people who have done really well at school, [00:26:40] who’ve gone to university for seven years, who are putting their heart and soul into something? How can [00:26:45] we pay them? How can we pay them better? How can we level the playing field between private and NHS? That [00:26:50] for me is the the craziest thing.

Payman Langroudi: Look, I think it’s problematic, right? Because [00:26:55] if we compare to the US for instance, the healthcare. Yeah. [00:27:00] If if your grandma had an issue a medical issue. Yeah. [00:27:05] I’d be very happy to tell my grandma. Go to your local GP. Yeah. For free. [00:27:10] Yeah. And I’d be very happy for her to be referred to a local hospital for free [00:27:15] and be seen. And I think that’s a that’s a good level of care. Yeah. In the US they’ve got this thing about listen, [00:27:20] go find the best doctor in the country. And you know, the best doctor in the country isn’t going to be free. And you know, there’s that [00:27:25] level of agency people want with their healthcare. They want to pick the best guy. Yeah. [00:27:30] So there’s that. But if my grandma had toothache, yeah. I wouldn’t [00:27:35] hand on heart say go find an NHS dentist. I wouldn’t.

Sophie Lovett: You know, wouldn’t you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, because the NHS [00:27:40] hasn’t got time or money to fix that tooth.

Ashley King: It’s the time piece. Absolutely. I’ve [00:27:45] had a discussion with an NHS dentist at the show, and she was telling me how [00:27:50] just she has to move through patients so quickly, and even how second opinion would be great for her, [00:27:55] because then she would have to spend less time looking at X-rays. But I mean, it’s insane how what is expected [00:28:00] of NHS given.

Payman Langroudi: The opposite advice to friends and family. I definitely don’t find an NHS [00:28:05] dentist for this problem, but.

Ashley King: It’s not their fault, right?

Payman Langroudi: It’s his fault, but the system’s fault, [00:28:10] right?

Ashley King: Exactly. And like Sophie, you said, they’re saying, you know, we’ll throw a few million at it. It’s like, well, it’s a fundamentally [00:28:15] broken system, which, by the way, I have many thoughts about our system in the US, insurance wise. Insurance [00:28:20] companies in general are just problematic in creating a lot of issues for us. But here it’s also [00:28:25] fundamentally broken. Don’t don’t throw money at it. Like look at the I.

Sophie Lovett: Mean, if you’re going to throw money [00:28:30] at it, throw more than a tenner as well, right?

Payman Langroudi: But there’s health care inflation as well. I mean, it’s the [00:28:35] crazy thing is here that we’re spending more on health per capita now than ever before. [00:28:40] And yet the NHS is more on its knees than ever before because stuff’s [00:28:45] getting more expensive. Health care is getting more expensive.

Sophie Lovett: Life is just expensive. And you have these specialist dentists [00:28:50] as well, who could be earning 300 plus thousand pounds a year, and they’re having to save. Now [00:28:55] people are having. Yes, it’s a we there’s a lot of issues that need sorting [00:29:00] out. Um, but, you know, essentially Pearl is there to make clinicians [00:29:05] lives easier. And there’s we love it, don’t we, doctor Amanda Bassey [00:29:10] Duke in in Scotland. So she just decided to take it upon herself [00:29:15] to time how much she was saving per visit.

Payman Langroudi: Because of per.

Sophie Lovett: Because of per. Yeah. [00:29:20] And we were saying this to dentists weren’t we. Up and down the country. She’s saving I think it was nine minutes, 33 [00:29:25] seconds or something. And an NHS dentist stopped me and said, you know, I’d [00:29:30] have less than six minutes left of my appointment. You can’t be saying that. You know, that’s the difference between Scotland [00:29:35] and England and saving of nine minutes in some Dental [00:29:40] per what? Per per appointment, per appointment.

Ashley King: In terms of diagnosing [00:29:45] herself and then speaking to.

Sophie Lovett: The nation, isn’t that incredible? So she actually took it upon [00:29:50] herself to time every single visit. She makes me laugh. She she, [00:29:55] if you ask her, why wouldn’t you have Pearl? She is [00:30:00] so fervent about it, you know, why wouldn’t you have it? It’s absolutely fantastic system. She just doesn’t [00:30:05] understand why everybody doesn’t have it. It has been completely transformative for [00:30:10] her. Um, and, but I just thought that was incredible case study. And we have some people who’ve [00:30:15] done case studies for us where it really surfaces things that we wouldn’t even thought about.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s go [00:30:20] through the process. Let’s say I’m a dentist, I decide I want Pearl, I call you Sophie. What happens next? [00:30:25]

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. So we look at what imaging system that you’re using and then we go [00:30:30] based on that. So if you’re I mean, we work with pretty much every single imaging system. So [00:30:35] we would then set you up with it. So it all happens remotely. You don’t need to do anything.

Payman Langroudi: No one visits. [00:30:40]

Sophie Lovett: No no, no, it’s all everything’s remote, you know, it’s a. And then what we would [00:30:45] do is you would just take your radiographs as you normally would, and then we can give you a system. So [00:30:50] it’s a separate web browser. And then you’d be able to access all the AI. So you can [00:30:55] access everything from there. But what we’re trying to do and this is where Ashley has been working, [00:31:00] is we’re trying to improve that workflow. So [00:31:05] we now work with the likes of Dental Vision. So the AI that you have in there, dental vision, AI, [00:31:10] DB, AI that’s pearls technology. So you’re not even having to move the you’re not even [00:31:15] having to change browser clinicians do not like clicking, do they? Actually, yeah, we work with we [00:31:20] work natively. So natively means when we are embedded within an existing system with [00:31:25] the likes of Care Stream and Rumex, I mean, you can talk much more about this actually, because you’ve been working on [00:31:30] those partnerships and getting them up and running.

Ashley King: Yeah. Your point about [00:31:35] clinicians not wanting to change their workflow has been a focus for us. [00:31:40] We want to make lives easier, not harder, obviously. Um, so yeah, I would say most of [00:31:45] the main imaging systems people are using in the UK and globally, like [00:31:50] the top 3 to 5 were integrated and yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, what happens now? [00:31:55] You she’s got, she’s, she downloaded something and she’s got, she’s got the. Is [00:32:00] there training.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. So we, we’ll pull from the server again. So it’s all just streamlined [00:32:05] there for you. So what I would say is so we’ll send out video training. Um, [00:32:10] you can train yourself on the things that you need to know in five [00:32:15] minutes.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really.

Sophie Lovett: And everything that is nice to know in [00:32:20] less than a day. And that is feedback that I’ve had from clinicians who’ve told me that it’s [00:32:25] scary again, actually, I think you mentioned earlier your friends saying about, oh, AI, and [00:32:30] we kind of just assume that people know exactly what we’re talking about. And I do not want to assume [00:32:35] that people will be able to learn in the same way or anything like that, but you [00:32:40] cannot break it. So what it will do is it will just overlay with the AI, you’ll have a list of pathologies, [00:32:45] they will automatically be selected for you. And then we have just this patient presentation [00:32:50] button which is called tooth parts, which is the colour overlay. Um, that is [00:32:55] the one button that I would want to just train on everything else. You can learn yourself edits, printouts, [00:33:00] enhancing the image, um, flipping it, changing it, inverting colour, etc.. [00:33:05]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s say I’m not on Dental. How do I get that that extra into the notes, the pearl [00:33:10] into the notes.

Sophie Lovett: Um, so in terms of your note system, what you can do is you can [00:33:15] just select to save it. So you can just pull it down as a PDF into your notes, so straight [00:33:20] into your notes. But what happens is because it’s a separate web browser, if you’re not in Dental, [00:33:25] for example, um, you can access it all the time. So I know when I first start [00:33:30] showing people it, they think, how do I get into my notes? How do I get back to it? It will all [00:33:35] stay there. One of the nice things about that is that that then makes it fully remote for [00:33:40] you as well. So where clinicians were, you know, using wet film or using, um, server [00:33:45] based products really kind of tied them to the [00:33:50] practice. Now you can access your radiographs from home or in your case, your, your yacht [00:33:55] in the Riviera, and you could do your notes from there, for example.

Payman Langroudi: Then. [00:34:00] Okay. How much does it cost?

Sophie Lovett: It’s £249 [00:34:05] per month plus VAT currently.

Payman Langroudi: Per dentist.

Ashley King: Per.

Sophie Lovett: Clinic, per clinic. [00:34:10]

Payman Langroudi: Or per clinic.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. So we, you know, what is it works out around pound per [00:34:15] patient in some practices.

Payman Langroudi: However many chairs I’ve got.

Ashley King: Up to.

Sophie Lovett: About ten [00:34:20] chairs 10 to.

Ashley King: 15. We’re pretty flexible on it. We have a.

Payman Langroudi: One chair and ten chairs. Same cost.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. [00:34:25] So around 250 to £300 per month is what you’re going to your pitch.

Payman Langroudi: Your [00:34:30] pitch is you’re going to make that up in the in the treatment uptake because patients [00:34:35] will trust you more because is that what you’re saying?

Sophie Lovett: So as Ashley mentioned earlier, we are surfacing about [00:34:40] 3,033% more diseases being detected. So one [00:34:45] you’ve got that. So, you know, sometimes our eyes can be focussed on a specific area. We may have missed something. [00:34:50] Secondly that acceptance of treatment because of the. Aha! I understand [00:34:55] what I’m looking at. It’s far quicker. That’s where Doctor Amanda’s nine [00:35:00] minute, 33 seconds time saving came in. So yeah, quicker treatment acceptance. [00:35:05] If for example the patient isn’t the bill payer as well, we’ll give them something to take home [00:35:10] so that they can show somebody else. Seeing is believing. If I go to the mechanic, don’t [00:35:15] want to fix my car, but I really want to know what I am paying for. Um, [00:35:20] so when we’ve got patients who don’t know what it is because [00:35:25] they can’t feel it, you know, they don’t know what’s going on, you know, the second that you’ve got something that is, is [00:35:30] non-sentient, it doesn’t feel there’s no reason for the AI to be detecting [00:35:35] any more or less. It’s just that it’s a shame, but it’s that, okay, I trust you now. [00:35:40]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, dentistry is a game of trust. 1,000%. Right? Because [00:35:45] most of the time you can’t tell as a patient anything that’s happened. Yeah. In your mouth, which [00:35:50] is hence, you know, people get lovely waiting rooms and stuff like that to try and say, hey, you know, [00:35:55] the other signs that I’m good other than the teeth don’t hurt. Um, [00:36:00] and then just get this wrong sometimes, you know, like the trust point is the [00:36:05] key point. Um, if you know, we have people asking us, oh, if I [00:36:10] drop the price, will I do more whitening? And it’s not.

Sophie Lovett: All [00:36:15] the time.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not a commodity, you know, like commodities work that way. Yeah, yeah. But it’s not a commodity. [00:36:20] It’s the exact opposite of a commodity. It’s like, you know, very personalised care. Yeah. And [00:36:25] the question of, you know, if I’m selling, we’ve got, you know, some guys got cheap whitening for £300 [00:36:30] and now we’ve got expensive whitening for £600, let’s say. Does it mean if I, [00:36:35] if I’m selling 600 will I sell half as much. They really people really believe that. Whereas [00:36:40] actually, if the patient trusts you to 300 they’ll trust you to 3000. [00:36:45] It’s the trust point. That’s the key. And I guess, you know, if I can increase trust with [00:36:50] Pearl. It’s huge. It’s huge. I wouldn’t for you guys. I wouldn’t even go in selling [00:36:55] pounds per second or nine minutes. I know these are things that you’re going to add on. Yeah. [00:37:00] But it’s trust. If I can increase trust from my patients, it’s gigantic.

Ashley King: I think we [00:37:05] forget as well how it does improve trust, because AI in [00:37:10] some instances has become a bit of a dirty word, probably because of fear. Yeah. [00:37:15] But we ran a survey and what was the percentage? 70% of 70 plus percent of patients [00:37:20] said that they trusted their dentists more because they were using AI. Yeah. [00:37:25] And it goes back even to the conversation we were having before about, you know, it’s about person [00:37:30] to person, interpersonal communication, all of these things, relationships. [00:37:35] You can’t replace that. And you have to build it in order to be [00:37:40] truly successful. There’s no AI will never actually replace that, but it can enhance it. [00:37:45]

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. I talk to students a lot of the time and they [00:37:50] I when they’re still at university and when they finish university. [00:37:55] And something I hear so much is my patients aren’t [00:38:00] accepting, I’m not able to sell it. The word sell in dentistry is a real surprising [00:38:05] word that I never expected.

Ashley King: It feels very American.

Sophie Lovett: It’s a real. It’s a. I think it’s a real shame. [00:38:10] Why is it that we’re having to. Or clinicians are having to sell what they know that they’re doing. So [00:38:15] if I walked into the hospital.

Payman Langroudi: You can you can stick another word in it, but it’s selling.

Sophie Lovett: But [00:38:20] you are like, because why are we convincing this patient that they need a root [00:38:25] canal? It shouldn’t be that we’re looking.

Ashley King: You know what, I imagine it feels like I’m not a clinician, but as a [00:38:30] when you go into the supermarket and you don’t buy anything and then you leave and you [00:38:35] are like, I didn’t do anything wrong. But I’m wondering if someone’s assuming that I’m like doing [00:38:40] something wrong. You feel kind of guilty and weird. That’s probably what it feels like when you have a patient walk in. [00:38:45] Maybe that doesn’t have pain and maybe you find, you know, three carries, you’re asking them to [00:38:50] get treatment and you’re like, oh, like you feel this weird feeling. [00:38:55] I imagine that’s what it’d feel like.

Payman Langroudi: As a dentist.

Ashley King: Will you.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me? You’re right, you’re right. And then often [00:39:00] you don’t know when was the last time this person saw a dentist? Yeah. And plus, get three dentists, [00:39:05] get four treatment plans, you know, like that’s it.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: People disagree with each other. Um, [00:39:10] you’ve met my wife? Yeah. She’s a total let’s wait and see type [00:39:15] of dentist. She is excellent. And then you get the other type who’s like early intervention, like get in as quick [00:39:20] as you can before it gets any worse. Yeah. Like, you know, like, let’s crown it while we still [00:39:25] can kind of approach and very the US approach actually.

Ashley King: Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: They [00:39:30] might not be wrong. You know, those 3 or 4 different people who have got different decisions [00:39:35] on something, they might all be right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. That too. That too.

Sophie Lovett: And then I think that [00:39:40] just wherever we have a vacuum and this happens so much in Covid, we fill that [00:39:45] vacuum with information when we don’t know, and that’s what patients are doing. And I think it’s so important that we [00:39:50] try to remember what it’s like when we knew nothing about dentistry, even [00:39:55] the language, you know, when the language was completely changed since I came into dental, that’s why I’ve got [00:40:00] my little Oxford Book of Clinical Dentistry, because the language I had to learn how to understand it. I’m [00:40:05] going to be completely honest. I didn’t know what a Carie was. I didn’t know what caries were trying [00:40:10] to.

Payman Langroudi: But now it’s so native to you. Like you trot it off. It’s nice.

Sophie Lovett: But then I feel like when I when I’m [00:40:15] speaking with people who are outside of dentistry, I would say decay. So again, I think it’s [00:40:20] with everybody kind of has to remember or we find [00:40:25] ourselves kind of just mixing within Dental. I think when you’re in it a certain amount of time. So then we just forget [00:40:30] the language of bubble. It’s a bubble. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about you live you live here now? [00:40:35]

Ashley King: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of kind of. Tell me about your reflections on like, London, [00:40:40] living in London. What’s what’s the best and worst thing compared to the US?

Ashley King: Oh man. [00:40:45]

Sophie Lovett: Oh, I like that.

Ashley King: I think London is the best city in the world, which is, [00:40:50] I know, a hot take.

Payman Langroudi: Even all the places you’ve been.

Ashley King: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Ashley King: And [00:40:55] maybe I’m just gaslighting myself because I’m here.

Sophie Lovett: But it is a sunny day today.

Ashley King: It [00:41:00] is also a beautiful day outside. Ask me next January. I’ll tell you how I really feel. But no. Um, [00:41:05] I think, Sophie, I think you said this to me. It’s a hard city to be [00:41:10] truly successful in. It’s almost like New York in the US where, you know, if you’re living [00:41:15] in London, it’s expensive. You have to be a grafter. And I think [00:41:20] there are some very hard working, intelligent people in this city. It’s not hard [00:41:25] to find them and people from all over the world. So I really like that. What [00:41:30] I don’t like about it, I mean, being away from my family, of course.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:41:35] outside of that.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. Come on, give us the scoop. Give us the tea.

Ashley King: There is some.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, [00:41:40] surely service here can’t be as good as it is in the US.

Ashley King: Oh yeah. I mean, that’s true.

Sophie Lovett: I feel [00:41:45] like you quite like that though.

Ashley King: I like it when people.

Sophie Lovett: Are like to.

Ashley King: Me. I’m like yeah. Oh I [00:41:50] have to earn your love. Like bring it on. It’s probably some childhood trauma thing. Yeah, [00:41:55] exactly. Um, it can be a bit much when you go back to the US, but [00:42:00] like you walk in the elevator in five different people walk in and they all say hello to you. You know, especially [00:42:05] where I’m from, North Carolina, everyone’s very friendly, so it’s good in different good and bad in different ways.

Sophie Lovett: No. [00:42:10] Come on, tell us what’s the worst thing?

Ashley King: Uh, okay. You know that I’m, like, hyper critical of the US, [00:42:15] so I hope that anyone listening to this doesn’t think that I’m like, America is so much [00:42:20] better. We’re the best country in the world. Freedom. We’ll talk.

Payman Langroudi: About the worst things about America as.

Ashley King: Well.

Sophie Lovett: For [00:42:25] anyone listening. Ashley’s wearing a t shirt that says back to back World War Champs. Yeah. [00:42:30]

Ashley King: Um, I would say [00:42:35] there’s something so beautiful about the American dream [00:42:40] and the American spirit. Um, which is actually sort of dying in the US at this [00:42:45] moment with the younger generation. But this idea that you can become [00:42:50] whoever you want to.

Payman Langroudi: Be and do. Kind of.

Ashley King: Yeah. And be proud of what you’ve accomplished. [00:42:55] I think it’s a little more toned back here. Like people [00:43:00] are afraid to talk about their successes or even [00:43:05] dream really big and do that out loud. You’ll be judged.

Payman Langroudi: So I [00:43:10] think you’re right. If you if in the UK, if you say, I’ve got an idea, loads of people will tell you why [00:43:15] it’s not possible. Right. And I’ve noticed in America it’s the opposite. I mean, people were [00:43:20] saying why not.

Ashley King: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s for real.

Sophie Lovett: It’s the complementing as well, like [00:43:25] self complementing. If somebody said that they were the best at something, I’d say actually this person [00:43:30] said that they were the best at something the other day. Whereas I actually think it’s really good to celebrate your [00:43:35] successes. Um, but I think we’re trying to learn that as Brits. [00:43:40] But it’s slow, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, my, my business partner moved to Dubai, so [00:43:45] it’s just so.

Sophie Lovett: They could complement themselves.

Payman Langroudi: Within, within three months of being there. [00:43:50] He’s got people helping him in ways he’s never had here.

Sophie Lovett: Wow.

Ashley King: That’s that’s another really great point. [00:43:55] Every all of my early success in my career, which has brought me here, has been because [00:44:00] people I met, people that wanted to help me. Yeah, yeah. And so, for example, when I started at [00:44:05] Voco, the reason I got that job is because I was in Houston for on [00:44:10] a work trip. I went to a gym that I booked on ClassPass, and this girl in the class started [00:44:15] talking to me who worked at Voco. She ended up getting me hired there. Wow. And it, it [00:44:20] was just because we had a conversation and then we became friends. And I don’t think [00:44:25] we do that as much here. People don’t talk to each other and they’re not looking for friends. Like, we have [00:44:30] golden retriever energy in the US where it’s just.

Payman Langroudi: Like a question on that sometimes in America, I’ve sat [00:44:35] on a plane and the guy sitting next to me straight away. How are you doing? Yeah. And sometimes we have [00:44:40] a nine hour flight and we talk for the whole nine hour flight.

Ashley King: This happened to me the other day, but it can be annoying. [00:44:45]

Payman Langroudi: At the end of that nine hour.

Ashley King: Flight.

Payman Langroudi: I thought, I thought I’ve really connected to someone. You know, like [00:44:50] this is going to be a friend for life or something. Because we spoke for all that time. We got we got to where [00:44:55] we were getting to and he was like, okay, see you later. Bye. Yeah. And if.

Sophie Lovett: I transient.

Payman Langroudi: If I, yeah, [00:45:00] if I’d had a conversation like that in the UK that I’d be like in touch with that person. [00:45:05] Yeah. And it made me realise, yeah, that you guys get into things much more quickly, [00:45:10] but maybe like getting very close takes a long time. Whereas [00:45:15] here you can sometimes sometimes you meet someone and you just straight away, straight away, you know, like that person’s [00:45:20] like someone you’re going to, you’re going to be knowing for a long time and you can get very close quicker, [00:45:25] very close quicker. But you’re right, people don’t talk. People don’t [00:45:30] talk.

Sophie Lovett: Say Ashley’s really quite European in that sense. Ashley herself. Yeah, yeah. [00:45:35] I would hope so. As in you, you. And it’s, um, um, [00:45:40] it’s like your love and respect is earned over [00:45:45] time, and I find that much more valuable in terms of you’re always super polite and warm and everything, but [00:45:50] you’re not, you’re not that kind of golden retriever, which is, uh, hey, hey, hey hey hey. And [00:45:55] then leave it, you know, it’s you really do build those relationships. And, um, [00:46:00] I’m an introvert. I’ll see you was asking me about it. He’s he’s from France, but he lives in LA, [00:46:05] so I’m not going to do the accent because, you know, sort of thinks [00:46:10] a Parisian surfer. Um, but he was saying, you know, how do Ashley and [00:46:15] Sarah create these relationships in Europe? Europeans don’t love Americans [00:46:20] and said, it’s not about loving Americans. It’s about the individual. And actually, [00:46:25] you know, Ashley can speak to anybody.

Payman Langroudi: I think British people do love Americans, though, over here.

Ashley King: More than I [00:46:30] thought.

Payman Langroudi: I was here.

Ashley King: I thought I was going to be a cringe, you know, a person. But it [00:46:35] turns out it’s not too bad.

Sophie Lovett: It’s all these airport. That’s an airport accent that you’ve cultivated. [00:46:40]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I mean London, everyone’s a foreigner, right? It’s hard to find a Brit in [00:46:45] London. Honestly, what’s the worst thing about being in Benidorm? [00:46:50]

Ashley King: The worst thing.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the worst? What would you say, Sophie.

Sophie Lovett: About living in the UK?

Payman Langroudi: No, us. [00:46:55]

Sophie Lovett: What’s the worst thing about the US? Yeah.

Ashley King: I have an [00:47:00] answer. Go on. Um, like we are all. John [00:47:05] said this to me. John Schwarz, who was 13 for a bit and is a close friend, and he said, [00:47:10] um, Americans are on a lifeboat. That’s how they live their [00:47:15] lives. Like they’re on a lifeboat. So everyone, because think about it, our our [00:47:20] health care is tied to our job.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Ashley King: We’re trying to survive. And [00:47:25] even like, you can’t just walk to the store in the US. You have to get in your car. That car is [00:47:30] costing you $400 a month, and then you have car insurance. It’s just all these extra costs. [00:47:35] And being so capitalism focussed. Yeah, I think people [00:47:40] have lost, I guess, just a little bit of authenticity [00:47:45] and like, it’s almost like touch grass a little, you know, like, but people are trying to survive so they can’t [00:47:50] touch grass. So.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but wouldn’t you say financially in America, people are slightly better off than here? [00:47:55] No, I don’t think here the system takes more money from them.

Ashley King: Statistically, salary wise, yes. [00:48:00] But when you add up all those extra fees and then just not even being able to walk to the [00:48:05] supermarket, you know, it’s we don’t have and we don’t prioritise relationships. [00:48:10]

Payman Langroudi: And I think what annoys me about America. Yeah. That it’s only about [00:48:15] the money.

Ashley King: That’s right. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s a good thing in a way. Right. Because here there are places it doesn’t matter how much money [00:48:20] you’ve got, you’re not getting in.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, yeah. We’re about snob long term snobbery. And there’s.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [00:48:25] jobs. Yeah. There’s jobs. Yeah. It’s not about like the money. It’s about who [00:48:30] you are, who, you know, like, whereas in the US at least, you know what it’s about. It’s about money. Yeah. So that’s, [00:48:35] that’s a good thing. You can, you can put it down.

Ashley King: More surface level, like easy to expose.

Payman Langroudi: But, but, [00:48:40] but once I was, I was skiing in America and I lost my goggles or something. So [00:48:45] I went to look for some more and I tried a few on. And the service is great isn’t it? They get, [00:48:50] they get giving me them and taking them out. Try them on. And then I came to pay for it and I looked, I couldn’t find [00:48:55] my wallet. Yeah. I said, oh, I’m so sorry. I left my wallet. And the way she turned on me, man, [00:49:00] she turned on me, man. And you know, then you realise it’s only about [00:49:05] the money. Like the bartenders, this amazing guy. As long as you’re ordering more drinks and and giving him tips. Yeah, [00:49:10] the moment you’re not that guy, who’s the other guy?

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. Then you get.

Ashley King: Good.

Speaker 6: Service too. [00:49:15] So it’s like, it’s good.

Sophie Lovett: You know, and this is exactly it’s all about this balance. But I [00:49:20] think you were asking what I personally think is the worst thing about the US. And [00:49:25] I, I mean, I go to the US most years. I love the place, the geography, the people. [00:49:30]

Payman Langroudi: Where’s your favourite.

Sophie Lovett: Place? Charleston in South Carolina. Absolutely love.

Payman Langroudi: It. Her [00:49:35] hometown.

Sophie Lovett: Uh, you’re from North Carolina. Charlotte, right.

Ashley King: But very close to. I grew up going there. [00:49:40] It’s a beautiful.

Sophie Lovett: City. Just stunning.

Ashley King: One of the only cities where we haven’t knocked down all the old buildings [00:49:45] and replace them with, like, cardboard apartment buildings.

Sophie Lovett: So it’s really pretty nice. [00:49:50]

Payman Langroudi: Why have you been there?

Sophie Lovett: I’ve been all over the US. Um, it’s just, I [00:49:55] don’t know, just. I’ve been there twice, actually. Normally don’t go back to the same place, but it’s just somewhere that really drew. [00:50:00] I don’t know, I was drawn to it. They call it the Europe of the South. Um, and [00:50:05] the Europe of America. But one thing that I find really confusing [00:50:10] is the lobby groups. So if if something is bad for you, you know, [00:50:15] I don’t know, antibiotics in pork or um, OxyContin, [00:50:20] um, or guns, you can have these big kind of short [00:50:25] termist groups that will lobby for something that is just [00:50:30] for, you know, to commercially help themselves. I’m not against, you [00:50:35] know, making a buck at all. But I think, you know, you’ve also got to [00:50:40] think about what’s the next generation, how’s this going to impact? And I do think that.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:50:45] politics is more corrupt.

Sophie Lovett: But it’s just intrinsic. You know, that’s not going to change [00:50:50] about now. But yeah.

Ashley King: This is a bigger picture [00:50:55] of what we were talking about with, you know, private versus public health care. Yeah. When [00:51:00] you’re a politician, you’re supposed to be a public servant. It’s the same as if you’re providing health care. We [00:51:05] have privatised these things and made them about money. And that is why, [00:51:10] I mean, it’s kind of all crumbling down in a way if you if you look at it.

Sophie Lovett: But [00:51:15] yeah, you look at Europe though, and you know, I’m bashing this, but I’m also, you know, you look at Europe and the UK and I [00:51:20] don’t think that we’re productive anymore. I think we’ve got a little bit lazy. So there has to be [00:51:25] I think there’s we’ve just become so polarised in terms of this almost Marxist [00:51:30] communist, a super high capital. You know, there’s where is the middle ground [00:51:35] of let’s be able, let’s enable people to make money, but also let’s [00:51:40] be altruistic. And, you know, let’s have a rising tide.

Payman Langroudi: The middle is not holding. You [00:51:45] know, that’s the thing. We’re not in that era of the middle. No, we are in the polarised era. [00:51:50]

Sophie Lovett: When was the era New Labour?

Payman Langroudi: Blair.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Speaker 6: I saw a video about.

Ashley King: This actually on [00:51:55] Instagram today and it was talking about how in Manchester the [00:52:00] there was a seat. I’m sorry, I don’t know much about politics here. I just try to stay out of politics [00:52:05] in general, which is very privileged. But anyway, um they had, they were very concerned that [00:52:10] this Labour seat was going to go to the other side. And then in terms what [00:52:15] ended up happening is it went to the Green Party and their thing was you need to be ultra left [00:52:20] in order to like, even out the right.

Speaker 6: Yeah.

Ashley King: And I think this is why Kamala [00:52:25] lost in the US to Trump because she was almost too centrist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Although they [00:52:30] put her on a bit late, didn’t they? That was that was the thing.

Ashley King: Well that didn’t that didn’t help. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but but you know, [00:52:35] this question of like the centre. The middle. Yeah. Um you almost what you’re [00:52:40] saying is you have to be a populist, you have to come out with populism, whether [00:52:45] you’re right wing or left wing.

Sophie Lovett: What do you go back. It’s like moving bees. You can’t just move them a little bit. You’ve got to move them [00:52:50] a lot to get them back to.

Payman Langroudi: You know, like the pendulum swings too far [00:52:55] in both directions.

Sophie Lovett: It’s a shame that we’ve allowed the pendulum to shift. I mean, [00:53:00] I just I’m.

Ashley King: It’s the horseshoe theory. Have you heard of that?

Payman Langroudi: No.

Speaker 6: Go on.

Ashley King: It’s like what [00:53:05] you know, this is the the left. And then you’ve become so right that you’re.

Speaker 6: Actually on the other [00:53:10] side of the horseshoe.

Payman Langroudi: Like a Nazi is closer to the communist than he is.

Ashley King: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: But one [00:53:15] thing I’ve noticed though, whenever I’m with Ashley, people always ask about politics. Go straight into it. [00:53:20] It’s just kind of the default at the moment.

Payman Langroudi: Of Trump and all.

Sophie Lovett: That.

Ashley King: I feel like I’m on an apology tour for my country. [00:53:25] Like, I’m just like, I’m sorry about. I’m sorry about what my president tweeted on Easter. [00:53:30] Like, I do not ascribe to that. You know what I mean?

Payman Langroudi: You said you’re not political, but how do you feel [00:53:35] about the Republicans like representing the worker nowadays? [00:53:40] I mean, it’s a weird thing, isn’t it? Like we’ve got a similar situation. Like, you [00:53:45] know, Labour were for the workers, conservatives for the for the, you know, the owners call [00:53:50] it. Yeah. But in America, it’s kind of switched around. Whereas, yeah, before [00:53:55] the Democrats were for the workers and the Republicans were for the money people. Now it’s kind of switched [00:54:00] around. The Democrats are more part of the elite now.

Sophie Lovett: And no, I do.

Ashley King: I think it’s actually [00:54:05] if you look at the policies, for example, the tax cuts that Trump did, [00:54:10] it benefited billionaires more than it did the average person. So I [00:54:15] think we I think Republicans, they cosplay as helping [00:54:20] the average person. But if you look at people who switched.

Payman Langroudi: People don’t generally switch. People [00:54:25] generally are either.

Ashley King: I would say I switched.

Payman Langroudi: You.

Ashley King: Switched. I grew up very Christian, conservative. [00:54:30] And, you know, my family was like pretty, [00:54:35] not blue collar, but I mean, my grandpa grandpas were both trained engineers.

Sophie Lovett: And your me. [00:54:40]

Ashley King: Me, me malls were stay at home moms, you know what I mean? So like, we’re from West Virginia, [00:54:45] you know, pretty, pretty Republican. But no, I and I’ve seen even my family, [00:54:50] they’ve become more centrist even. So, yeah, maybe not even [00:54:55] centrist. I think people in the US are like almost looking for like, you’re lucky here. You don’t have [00:55:00] the two party system. We’re stuck with two parties, and a lot of people find they don’t [00:55:05] identify with either. That’s how I would describe myself.

Sophie Lovett: Do you not say that we’ve predominantly had a two party, [00:55:10] certainly in my lifetime these days.

Payman Langroudi: Now it’s looking like more coalitions. I mean, for the next [00:55:15] election you had the Greens like, like Labour’s losing to the Greens on one side and to reform on the other [00:55:20] side, and it probably will end up being some sort of coalition.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Ashley King: This is good though. You [00:55:25] need to have options. We were we weren’t designed as a country to be a two party system. But I think it’s really [00:55:30] messing us up.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: I think Rory Stewart calls for kind of like government jury duty, [00:55:35] doesn’t he? Where it should just be. Everyone does it for a year. And then [00:55:40] back to I.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s going to be AI in the end. Yeah. Ai.

Sophie Lovett: I don’t understand why. It’s why [00:55:45] things aren’t gone. I feel like our current government, [00:55:50] I just wish they would have put it through AI. You know, some of the I.

Ashley King: Will say, I know we’re [00:55:55] using it in war and it’s made some mistakes.

Payman Langroudi: Of course, of course. [00:56:00]

Ashley King: So I think once again, it’s like using AI on an X-ray. You want to make sure you’re.

Payman Langroudi: How are. [00:56:05]

Ashley King: You using.

Payman Langroudi: Ai in your work outside of Pearl itself being an AI.

Ashley King: System? Oh, man.

Payman Langroudi: Are [00:56:10] you into Claude?

Ashley King: Oh, I am into what I call her Claudia. Because I’m like a man would [00:56:15] never be this helpful. So it’s a woman. Um, but yes. Claude [00:56:20] Cowork, um, I think I was messaging one of my colleagues. I spent £60 [00:56:25] this month so far on extra tokens because I keep running out of usage. [00:56:30] Wow. Um, it’s worth it though. Time is money.

Payman Langroudi: So what are you doing with it?

Ashley King: Okay, so, um, [00:56:35] we’re very fortunate at Pearl, by the way, to be able to be pretty [00:56:40] open with the AI systems we use.

Sophie Lovett: They really encourage it.

Ashley King: So many of my friends who I’m [00:56:45] like, are you using Claude Cowork? Like, I’m like a Claude evangelist, I should get a referral [00:56:50] code or something. But, um, what I do is I connect my gmail, [00:56:55] my notion, my meeting recording notes, my Slack, all of these different [00:57:00] entities that I’m working on into it. And then I use it to.

Payman Langroudi: Run [00:57:05] your whole life.

Ashley King: Run my entire life. Yeah. Like every morning it runs through my emails and tells [00:57:10] me which ones I should respond to automatically types out a draft in my like vocal. [00:57:15] How I would type my voice.

Payman Langroudi: Voice?

Ashley King: Yeah. Um, and this is just, this is surface [00:57:20] level stuff. But if you look at my Instagram algorithm, you were talking about the discover page earlier. It’s all about [00:57:25] clouds. That’s how I learn my scroll time is just flawed.

Sophie Lovett: But it’s we were [00:57:30] talking about this the other day and somebody described you absolutely beautifully, didn’t they? They said your toxic [00:57:35] productivity, um, Ashley is basically productive. So [00:57:40] we were talking about, although you’ve got all these automations, it’s [00:57:45] still not saving you time because you’re actually surfacing other things and newer things. So even [00:57:50] though you are productive in that you’re because you are now so productive, [00:57:55] you’re being asked to do more things. And so.

Ashley King: This is working at a Start-Up and you know.

Sophie Lovett: Exactly, [00:58:00] I think.

Ashley King: The, the, if I was working at an average job, corporate [00:58:05] especially, and, or even being a dentist, like the How I think about AI [00:58:10] for everyone is it’s going to do the stuff that you don’t want to do. [00:58:15] Sending emails. No one likes to check their emails. You know, all these things to allow you to do [00:58:20] actual meaningful work and also to do things like this. Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: Have conversations. [00:58:25]

Ashley King: Conversations with humans.

Payman Langroudi: And what we were talking about yesterday, we had a meeting and, uh, [00:58:30] I was discussing with my partner, there’s a few people in our organisation who’ve taken it on like [00:58:35] fully and a few who haven’t. And you can see the [00:58:40] ones who’ve taken it on are accelerating. Yeah. I mean, beyond anything, I [00:58:45] mean, we’ve got one, one girl who works for us who she’s started. She knows [00:58:50] more about toothpaste than I do, like in a, in a period of three months. Yeah. [00:58:55] We had a meeting with this chemist. Yeah. Like, and I was just [00:59:00] watching her talking to this chemist like three months ago. She had nothing to do with [00:59:05] toothpaste. Yeah. Wow. But she’s the type of person who will just dive into something, isn’t it? Yeah, [00:59:10] yeah, yeah.

Sophie Lovett: I think you have to be curious. And do you know what I, I [00:59:15] feel really lucky that we, I don’t feel that we worry about our [00:59:20] jobs because we’re looking at ways of adopting AI ourselves and working with it and, [00:59:25] you know, finding other other things to do to.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you mean you mean you’re not going to get replaced by AI?

Sophie Lovett: I [00:59:30] personally well, hopefully.

Payman Langroudi: Not, not yet.

Sophie Lovett: But, you know, there are you were mentioning, you know, it [00:59:35] can do emails and stuff. So I can see it being a huge worry for people. You know, if I was just doing data entry, [00:59:40] for example. Yeah. And things that. But, um, what I would like to stress [00:59:45] though, you know, not just with Pearl AI, but all these other LLMs, the large language [00:59:50] models, other AI’s is that we, we who use [00:59:55] it don’t ostracise others by making it sound too complicated because they, [01:00:00] they, anyone can use it. But I think people feel really, really shy [01:00:05] and nervous about using it because they just haven’t dipped their toe in the water yet. And people are almost creating [01:00:10] language that is a barrier to other people who haven’t yet dipped their toes in the water. [01:00:15]

Payman Langroudi: It’s serving us. It’s we’re serving it.

Sophie Lovett: So then that’s what you’re saying. You know, almost 50% of your [01:00:20] staff are 50% aren’t. You know, it shouldn’t be that way. You know, people should all be trying it. [01:00:25] Um, and, you know, if I could explain how to use it really, [01:00:30] really simply, it is, don’t use it as a way of googling something. You know, [01:00:35] what you put in is what you’ll get out. So you can, if you are super smart and you can do the essays [01:00:40] like you did at university, it will just help enhance that. But you still have to have the smarts to [01:00:45] put in to get the smarts out.

Ashley King: It’s a mirror. Just anything in life is a mirror. Let me tell you where I’m [01:00:50] concerned about. You know, the the people that are and aren’t using AI. I’m [01:00:55] worried about women because there’s a I saw a stat and it was like, [01:01:00] I think 50% less women are using AI tools [01:01:05] than men, right? And let me tell you why.

Sophie Lovett: That’s really interesting.

Ashley King: There’s this whole [01:01:10] one big reason. There’s a whole debate around the ethics of AI. [01:01:15] The amount of energy that it consumes, you know, and this is. Yeah, exactly. People [01:01:20] are also just worried that it’s going to take us away from the human element that we’ve spoken about. Very valid. [01:01:25] Any new technology that happens, we have fears, but I think women [01:01:30] tend to be more empathetic to that. And if you even [01:01:35] look at the jobs that women have, we’re more likely to be nurses, teachers, whatever. Whether that’s socially [01:01:40] programmed or inherent, that’s another topic. But because of that, a lot of [01:01:45] women, because of ethics are not using AI.

Payman Langroudi: They’re [01:01:50] worried about the planet, the environmental planet.

Ashley King: Also, just the fact that, you know, [01:01:55] robots take over, especially.

Payman Langroudi: Women are like slower adopters than men on tech tech. [01:02:00]

Sophie Lovett: I think it’s this boys club again, though, you know, it’s almost like.

Payman Langroudi: Ring.

Sophie Lovett: Fencing. Men are ring fencing. Things to [01:02:05] be like, oh, don’t worry, don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Look at it. Men haven’t done it. They like. Eyes moved so quickly. There’s a man telling you [01:02:10] not to go on.

Sophie Lovett: No, but I think, again, it’s this kind of ostracising by language, but also by, you know, [01:02:15] you know, don’t worry about looking at that. Don’t worry about it.

Ashley King: It was created by men as well. All most LMS are [01:02:20] were trained by men like the programmers were men, probably 80% of them. [01:02:25] And now men are using it and women are like, I’m worried that we’re being left behind and we’re going to regret.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get [01:02:30] on to the whole women, women in the workplace kind of subject. Yeah. Now let’s talk about [01:02:35] that. Let’s do that outside of AI. Leave AI to one side.

Sophie Lovett: We just talk about how our [01:02:40] team is just formed of the most indomitable women. Yeah we [01:02:45] are.

Payman Langroudi: We’re on purpose or by mistake.

Sophie Lovett: Um, I think it’s [01:02:50] by purpose that we’re all. I really think it.

Ashley King: Might partially be on purpose, even from some of our leaders [01:02:55] who have made hires. Yeah, absolutely. I’ve spoken to a fear about it. He’s like, I the [01:03:00] all the women that I’ve hired, they are the hardest workers. Yeah, they’re they get [01:03:05] things done. They don’t look at things surface level. They look at the entire picture and. [01:03:10]

Payman Langroudi: They say, okay, let me give you an example of what could be holding women back [01:03:15] in the workplace. And actually it’s for me, it’s like a double edged thing because I’ve [01:03:20] noticed not all women, but quite a lot of women. Yeah. Don’t [01:03:25] ever ask for a pay rise. They they wait, they wait. Not, not [01:03:30] you too. Obviously. They.

Sophie Lovett: Actually tell us what you got told [01:03:35] off for us.

Payman Langroudi: Let me give you some of my favourite employees. The [01:03:40] type of person who doesn’t ask.

Ashley King: You’re absolutely right. By the way, one of those essays I wrote.

Sophie Lovett: No [01:03:45] no no.

Payman Langroudi: No no, I’m telling you, they, they suffer by not asking.

Sophie Lovett: Totally because.

Payman Langroudi: There’s other people who [01:03:50] push hard. And in the end, you just don’t want to lose that person. So you give them more. Yeah. [01:03:55] And it’s it’s as I think it’s a female thing. Yeah, that too many women, you [01:04:00] know, maybe. Maybe it’s a man problem being over aggressive. Yeah, but too many [01:04:05] women wait to be asked or wait, you know, they don’t they don’t put their hand up.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. So for [01:04:10] me personally, I feel like everything had to be the right environment for me [01:04:15] to ask it. And I kept thinking about all the things that I was doing wrong that didn’t warrant it. Whereas [01:04:20] I think that sometimes men can just use a lack of critical thinking to go [01:04:25] in there and just be like me, one nasty, almost caveman like.

Payman Langroudi: Almost like a man who doesn’t [01:04:30] deserve it will last. But a woman who does deserve it won’t ask.

Sophie Lovett: And I think that sometimes [01:04:35] women also wait for times. We’re always like, [01:04:40] the diet will start on Monday, or we’re going to ask for it next quarter, or we’re going to ask [01:04:45] it in January when I know somebody else was. And I think that sometimes we almost adhere ourselves [01:04:50] too much to these timelines, whereas men I don’t know whether it’s because they don’t have kind of [01:04:55] lunar cycles are just like, now is fine, now is fine. So, [01:05:00] um, I, yeah, like I said, I, you know, I was joking about it, but Ashley and I have been [01:05:05] through this recently and I’m sorry, but it’s going to happen again in a couple of weeks because we really [01:05:10] want to buck that trend. And I think there are ways in which we can enable women [01:05:15] to do these things, but it does start with ourselves that we have to ask more because when you ask, [01:05:20] you get.

Payman Langroudi: At the same time, I don’t really believe in a gender pay gap.

Sophie Lovett: Um, [01:05:25] tell me more.

Ashley King: Okay, so one of those ten 000 word essays I wrote was [01:05:30] on the gender.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve looked into this.

Sophie Lovett: Um, ding ding ding.

Ashley King: Yeah. So, and [01:05:35] I didn’t write it with ChatGPT. So I actually remember when I wrote this was like ten [01:05:40] years ago, but you’re right in your theory, in terms of your theory of women do not ask [01:05:45] for raises as much as men. And, um, however, while that’s a big piece [01:05:50] and I’ve seen it even with my friends who I speak to, um, that don’t work at Pearl. [01:05:55] They’re they’re just very afraid. We’re we’re less risk averse in general. [01:06:00] That comes with socialisation as well. But if you do look at women [01:06:05] who have been successful and the higher the role of a woman. [01:06:10] So say I’m a CEO, you’re a CEO, the pay gap increases. [01:06:15]

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Sophie Lovett: So there’s not as many female CEOs [01:06:20] in the same industry.

Ashley King: Correct. And so if we’re a CEO in the same industry, [01:06:25] like let’s say you’re working for a competitor, um, you’re [01:06:30] probably making $0.40 on the dollar more than me versus [01:06:35] 20.

Payman Langroudi: But then don’t you think if that was the case, I would only hire women, [01:06:40] wouldn’t I? Because women are cheaper.

Ashley King: Maybe that’s why we have so many.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. But then okay, so you’ve got a woman [01:06:45] sitting in front of you. She’s great, but she’s just got married and she’s 31. [01:06:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ashley King: What do you what’s next.

Sophie Lovett: In your mind? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s going you’re right. It’s [01:06:55] going through my head. It’s going through.

Sophie Lovett: What’s going through your head.

Payman Langroudi: She’s going to have maternity soon.

Sophie Lovett: So why [01:07:00] don’t you just have a whole host of women, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Well [01:07:05] we do. We’ve got more women than men, right?

Sophie Lovett: Um, but so I was being facetious there. Right. [01:07:10] You know, I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Just if I’m honest in that situation, I’m thinking she’s going to be off soon. Maybe [01:07:15] for, for childcare. Yeah. That’s right. Now the reason for the pay gap is the childcare. [01:07:20] Yeah. Like that’s, you know.

Ashley King: Part of it.

Payman Langroudi: If your career gets cut by four years. That’s [01:07:25] absolutely part of it. You’re going to be behind. I think there’s not because you’re a woman. I think it’s twofold.

Ashley King: I [01:07:30] think it’s twofold. So you have we’re less likely to ask. [01:07:35] You have also maternity leave, things like that. Yeah. There is an inherent [01:07:40] bias that we all carry for whether it’s internal misogyny, like racism, [01:07:45] whatever bias we have, stereotypes that we hold, we might not even realise it. And I do think [01:07:50] I’ve experienced this, which I try to just not acknowledge it in my head because I think [01:07:55] your thoughts create your reality. So like, let’s not focus on this, but if I go to [01:08:00] my boss and ask for a raise every couple of months because my title keeps changing, [01:08:05] versus if a man who did the same thing did it, she’s also a woman. She might [01:08:10] not realise it, but it might piss her off that I did it versus him.

Speaker 7: Do you think [01:08:15] I mean.

Ashley King: Do you think people hold inherent biases?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:08:20] Well, then should we take it to the other side then? Let’s go. Surely [01:08:25] there’s some advantage to being a woman selling to some man.

Sophie Lovett: I’ll tell you what. I never used to think of any advantages [01:08:30] of being a woman. And now I see it all the time. I really do. I think that, um, [01:08:35] I think the the women are talking, you know, we are grouping together. Now. I [01:08:40] am talking more and more to my friends about, okay, where’s the best savings account? [01:08:45] How are we going to invest? You know? The conversations are really, really shifting. We’re talking [01:08:50] to each other about how, you know, you need to go in that room and ask for a pay rise. I [01:08:55] think the conversations are really shifting and shifting away from just [01:09:00] using the kind of preconceived notions of femininity, [01:09:05] but now using looking at femininity as more power. And [01:09:10] yeah, I think also women have always talked more. [01:09:15] And I think that makes us incredibly lucky. And we’ve got an advantage over men because [01:09:20] you just don’t open up, as you know, and being you know what’s interesting?

Payman Langroudi: I’ve been in some [01:09:25] I mean, maybe a few years ago, some like a boardroom in the US where there’s a woman [01:09:30] executive. Yeah. And she’s being incredibly aggressive and acting like a man. Yeah. [01:09:35] And I think this, this is the shift that we really need to see, that you don’t want to act [01:09:40] like an aggressive man. Yeah. As a woman, that’s that’s the.

Sophie Lovett: Worst shift, haven’t we, from that like, oh, [01:09:45] you’ve got to be a man. And to know we’ve now found our new thing. We’re not giving you [01:09:50] the secret, though, because I.

Ashley King: Think it goes back to have you. Have you [01:09:55] guys seen the Barbie movie? There’s that whole speech that. What is it, Cameron? I forget [01:10:00] her name, but she gives. She’s like, you have to be aggressive, but you can’t be too aggressive. You have to be [01:10:05] beautiful, but you can’t be too beautiful. It’s like all these things where it’s like, you [01:10:10] know, this is the way I think about life in general. We are all dealt a hand of cards. [01:10:15] Play your cards right. Don’t worry about what was dealt to you. It’s in your hand. Play [01:10:20] it like I could sit around and focus on. Does this person have an inherent bias? And is that [01:10:25] why they’re not giving me a raise? But that’s a waste of time. What hand have I been dealt [01:10:30] and how can I play it to the best of my ability? Um, I think I would. I’m [01:10:35] so glad that I’m a woman right now. I look at my mom and my grandma. They did not have the same opportunities as me [01:10:40] and.

Payman Langroudi: The shift then, I mean, you two are earning well, you’re, you know, [01:10:45] powerful businesswomen, right? The shift in society in that you no longer need [01:10:50] a man to look after you. Yeah. Like the, the classical old, like [01:10:55] the way your mom and grandma had to, like, get security from a marriage.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, yeah. I always had. [01:11:00]

Payman Langroudi: To.

Sophie Lovett: Come out to my parents.

Payman Langroudi: To relationships then.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Ashley King: Women expect men to have empathy [01:11:05] now. Oh, really? Basic empathy is required.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Ashley King: I think whereas before, [01:11:10] if you were providing financially, that was enough.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. I almost had to [01:11:15] kind of come out to my parents that I’m not going to get married and have children. And they [01:11:20] were really upset because I’ve got four brothers.

Payman Langroudi: You’re the only girl.

Sophie Lovett: I’m the only girl. And I [01:11:25] said to them, I then kind of framed it in a different way, um, and said, you know, [01:11:30] what do you want for me in general? And they said, we want you to be happy. And I said, this is what makes me happiest. [01:11:35] You know, the, you know, and I’m not a kind of I don’t think I’m doing it in [01:11:40] a masculine way, but I’m Working really, really hard and not saying that [01:11:45] that’s because I’m not with somebody and because I don’t have children, but I just really enjoy [01:11:50] this, this phase of my life. I really, really like it.

Payman Langroudi: But you never know because, I mean, I’ve [01:11:55] heard that so many times. And then the person’s got three kids.

Ashley King: You never know.

Sophie Lovett: I’m too old [01:12:00] for that now anyway.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Ashley King: No you’re not. What was it like? Cameron Diaz [01:12:05] had a baby at, like, 50 or something. Yeah, you never know.

Sophie Lovett: No. Thank you. I appreciate the.

Payman Langroudi: Reflections. I mean, [01:12:10] the difference does that in in dating, in marriage and all that. The [01:12:15] fact that you’re powerful, you’re self-reliant. Has that changed? Has that changed your relationship [01:12:20] with men?

Ashley King: I think for the better.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ashley King: Yeah. [01:12:25] I would say even just in the last year, I, I recently became single [01:12:30] at the end of last year and I was in a really long relationship before that. So [01:12:35] before and after I went from being pretty like low level, you know, trying to get by [01:12:40] to, you know, succeeding fairly well. I shouldn’t say that to British people. Sorry, we’re not [01:12:45] allowed to say that.

Sophie Lovett: I think I’m doing okay. I think because.

Ashley King: You’re approaching it, you’re [01:12:50] approaching dating when you’re in a circumstance like us is like, it’s just extra. [01:12:55] It’s it’s something to add. I’m a fully formed person. I expect you to be the same. Um, [01:13:00] it’s like I saw this thing and it said one plus one doesn’t equal two in a relationship. It equals 11. [01:13:05] The idea is that you’re both fully formed people. You come together and then the [01:13:10] your output is exponential.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Ashley King: That’s how I see it. So not having like [01:13:15] the scarcity like mentality around it is nice, but then no one has to give you.

Payman Langroudi: Anything like marriage [01:13:20] no longer as important as it was.

Sophie Lovett: I mean, for me, no, I mean, just I really [01:13:25] like my own space. I like coming home. I like looking after myself. I like doing, I it’s all about timing for me. [01:13:30] I want to do what I want to do on my own timing. And I know that that sounds and is [01:13:35] inherently selfish. But the choice for me is I want to do what I want to do [01:13:40] with my time.

Ashley King: I think it’d be selfish if you weren’t building and doing cool things that are ultimately [01:13:45] helping society, but.

Sophie Lovett: You will never know what it’s like to be a parent. And the [01:13:50] the real selflessness that goes into that.

Ashley King: I think I hot take this is contrarian. [01:13:55] Someone said this the other day, actually, it was a few months ago, but he was like, oh yeah, [01:14:00] I’m not I’m not having kids yet. I’m still being selfish. I actually think in a way, having kids [01:14:05] is selfish. And the reason I say that is twofold. Obviously, the fact [01:14:10] that we just already have so many people on this planet, like 8 billion people, that’s insane. [01:14:15] Do we need more people? You know, and we have limited resources on this planet. So [01:14:20] I think that’s a little selfish. But also, I think so many people have [01:14:25] kids because they’re looking for their children to provide them with a purpose. And it’s the default way to do that. It’s a very [01:14:30] easy way to find your purpose. And I think it can be a bit of a lazy way to find your purpose. This [01:14:35] is another thing.

Payman Langroudi: So you don’t want kids. Why are you not sure?

Ashley King: I’m not sure.

Sophie Lovett: I [01:14:40] don’t think either of us have written it off entirely. But at the moment, I think we’re kind of living for the moment. [01:14:45] I. I had this date once, and I didn’t. I don’t [01:14:50] know what happened, but the guy said to me, I have a real fetish of powerful women. I [01:14:55] was like, what? When did that become a thing?

Ashley King: Was this the guy that worked at, like, Jiffy [01:15:00] Lube? Sorry, that’s not like it’s like a.

Sophie Lovett: It was a nice guy, but [01:15:05] it was like, when did this become a fetish? And also, you know, I don’t know why I’m doing to come [01:15:10] across as this kind of powerhouse. It’s strange. It’s almost like.

Payman Langroudi: Did [01:15:15] it put you off?

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, I find it really strange. I found [01:15:20] it quite. Do you think you.

Ashley King: Come off as, like, masculine and powerful when you’re dating?

Sophie Lovett: No, but a bit. Maybe [01:15:25] a bit. Kind of. I if if something if somebody. I don’t like dilly dallying. Right. [01:15:30] So if it comes to the bill and somebody’s dilly dallying, I’ll just pay it.

Ashley King: Oh, yeah. No. Not [01:15:35] me. See, I’m. I’m the opposite in dating than I am at work. Like I’m at work. I’m [01:15:40] masculine. I’m getting shit done. When I’m dating. I’m like a totally different [01:15:45] person.

Payman Langroudi: Well that’s interesting.

Ashley King: Yeah. I step into my feminine energy because [01:15:50] I’m, you know, I’m a woman.

Sophie Lovett: Is that because you think guys like to kind of look [01:15:55] at you feel that they want to look after somebody?

Ashley King: Um, like I [01:16:00] don’t, I don’t necessarily, I don’t know, I think it’s like our masculine [01:16:05] and feminine energy complement each other, obviously. And there are some relationships [01:16:10] where the woman is more masculine, the man is more feminine, and it’s even and personally, [01:16:15] like we’re always, everyone has masculine and feminine energy, even boys. And for [01:16:20] me though, I just like feel most relaxed when I’m in my feminine [01:16:25] more leaning toward my feminine energy. And I want a man to pay and plan. Okay, [01:16:30] then I’m there.

Payman Langroudi: Controversial, controversial question. Then I look at my friend group [01:16:35] here and out of the people I know, there’s maybe four couples [01:16:40] where the woman’s clearly out earning the man. Yeah. And [01:16:45] I used to think, why not? Yeah. I think what’s what’s wrong with that? You know, [01:16:50] completely like egalitarian, sort of progressive kind of view on it. But when I [01:16:55] look at those four relationships, only one of them’s really worked. Yeah. And that one, her [01:17:00] father had 100 million. You know, there was no way this.

Ashley King: What do you think the difference is between [01:17:05] them?

Payman Langroudi: So this is the thing. I think it’s a little bit for a man emasculating. It’s a little bit like for [01:17:10] a man, let’s say you have an argument, a guy and a girl and the woman is [01:17:15] earning more than the man. Yeah. In that argument, if money comes up, which often, [01:17:20] often money is a cause of friction, right? If money comes up in that argument, [01:17:25] a man to be told he’s not earning his keep is a [01:17:30] much bigger insult than for a woman.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, so, so, so it [01:17:35] and a lot of women are aware of the size of that insult to a man. Like for a man, it’s [01:17:40] a big deal not being able to provide.

Ashley King: Why do you think that is?

Payman Langroudi: Because of programming. Yeah. But but yeah, but [01:17:45] also because of maybe the way we are chemically. Right. And like the way you switch in, in your dating [01:17:50] to this feminine thing because you are this feminine thing. Yeah. That’s real. Yeah. Maybe you’re switching at [01:17:55] work to this masculine thing. You know, the real you is the, the date you, you know, for whatever. [01:18:00] I mean, not.

Ashley King: Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: And those relationships just aren’t right. You know, if the man is feeling inferior, [01:18:05] if the woman is feeling like she needs.

Payman Langroudi: How do you feel about dating or marrying someone [01:18:10] who earns less than you? And by the way, it’s a huge industry. It’s a huge.

Sophie Lovett: Industry like ambition. [01:18:15] And I like lack of laziness and I like drive. And I think that if you’re striving towards [01:18:20] something, often that yearning towards something is then [01:18:25] shown as earning. So I think it’s about a drive and an and energy.

Payman Langroudi: But not always. [01:18:30]

Sophie Lovett: No, no, no, but it’s not. And you know, you can have people who start businesses. But I just think that, um, I [01:18:35] just really.

Ashley King: Wanted to the you’re worried about the person’s values versus their income.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. [01:18:40] That’s it.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So let’s say you get together with someone and you earn twice what he [01:18:45] earns, and then you’re buying a house or something and you’re paying twice as much for this house.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. Well, I [01:18:50] pay for everything anyway. And secondly, I’m always going to live alone and not with anyone. So it just doesn’t it just [01:18:55] doesn’t bother me. I didn’t do.

Payman Langroudi: Any rule on this. Do you find it, like, problematic [01:19:00] if you’re dating someone who earns less than you?

Sophie Lovett: I mean, I find it.

Ashley King: It’s probably I [01:19:05] would say that it’s statistically likely that someone would [01:19:10] earn less. I think it’s like 80% of people in the UK, like make less than 60 K [01:19:15] or something or 40 K.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But statistics.

Ashley King: Are statistically. Yeah. But um, [01:19:20] no, you know what, I think I agree with you, Sophie, that it’s the values that [01:19:25] matter. I want someone that’s a hard worker. But also there’s to me, you can provide [01:19:30] value outside of money and capitalism, right? Like [01:19:35] if you’re doing the little things like making sure we don’t [01:19:40] run out of milk for our tea in the morning, you know, it’s much more [01:19:45] than just a dollar amount.

Sophie Lovett: Tightness is a curse. Tightness is a curse, you know, [01:19:50] but you can.

Payman Langroudi: Overspending is a curse.

Sophie Lovett: Overspending is a curse. But you go to places that are fit [01:19:55] within what you can afford, you know, so it wouldn’t. I think the good thing about women is that we do [01:20:00] not need to be showing off all the time. As soon as a man is earning a certain amount, I actually, this [01:20:05] is the one thing that I really think has changed recently in my mind about why [01:20:10] it’s so good to be a woman is that as soon as a man starts earning more, [01:20:15] he then has to start going to the clubs that show he earns more. He has to send [01:20:20] his kids to private school to, you know, then go to the private dentist or go to the clubs [01:20:25] and have, you know, I’m a member of this. I’m a member of that. I’m wearing the.

Payman Langroudi: Woman to buy a handbag or whatever. [01:20:30]

Sophie Lovett: But they don’t have to, you know, it could be that the woman could just do much more [01:20:35] silent wealth. We don’t have to, you know, our friendship groups tend to stay the same. We actually tend to stay with. [01:20:40] And then.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right in that a man’s value ends up sometimes being how much money he makes, and.

Sophie Lovett: Then.

Payman Langroudi: It can.

Sophie Lovett: Cost [01:20:45] so much more. So actually, when they sometimes when people earn more, it means it unlocks [01:20:50] different opportunities that can be much more costly [01:20:55] where. And also it’s, you know, if other men because as [01:21:00] I said, I’ve got four brothers. If other men don’t see that person spending in line with their new [01:21:05] wealth, that will be questioned, whereas women will say, well done, this is amazing, you know, [01:21:10] and then they’ll start talking about how how they can get there. I have a I had a really interesting [01:21:15] week this week already. I did, um, a specialist [01:21:20] training with two different specialist practice this week. One was all [01:21:25] female specialists and one was all male specialists. I’ve never had that before.

Payman Langroudi: All female [01:21:30] specialists.

Sophie Lovett: All female specialists. And then I like that you weren’t surprised about the all male specialists. Um, [01:21:35] but the difference in the conversation, the women were saying [01:21:40] whenever someone was asking a question, they were saying, oh yeah, I want to know that too. Can you expand on it? And it was kind [01:21:45] of like this group mentality of everyone was supporting each other. So when I did [01:21:50] the male specialist training, I don’t know how it happened like this. They were po faced. [01:21:55] They didn’t say anything. It was the hardest one. And then they just fired these questions and it was almost [01:22:00] like they were.

Ashley King: Like, gotcha questions.

Sophie Lovett: Oh yeah.

Ashley King: Rather than like curiosity.

Sophie Lovett: Competition, competition. [01:22:05] And nobody was saying, oh, I wanted to find that out too. And well done. And then in the corridor, they [01:22:10] all came up to me and they were secretly asking questions and saying how much they loved it. I [01:22:15] thought, what did you say in the South? Oh, bless your hearts. You know, it’s a shame that [01:22:20] they couldn’t do it.

Payman Langroudi: The reason I bring up this earning thing here. It’s huge in dentistry. There’s loads of [01:22:25] women are primary earner dentists that they [01:22:30] are dentists. The husband isn’t. Yeah. And dentists earn a lot. Some of them. Yeah. So there’s loads of [01:22:35] those. And there’s loads of hygienists who are the primary earner in their house. [01:22:40] And so I’d say it’s a bigger issue. I mean there are more not an issue. [01:22:45] But there’s there’s more women who are primary earners in dentistry than there [01:22:50] is out there in society. And as I say, I like [01:22:55] ultra progressive to the end. And yet now when I see these couples [01:23:00] that I’m talking about now, I’m thinking maybe.

Sophie Lovett: Don’t worry though, because the grandkids are getting married to [01:23:05] robots.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah.

Ashley King: That’s a concern. But I [01:23:10] want to weigh in.

Sophie Lovett: Question is mu.

Ashley King: Let me tell you, like all of these all [01:23:15] these conversations we are having, I think they start off [01:23:20] as how is the patriarchy affecting women? Is what we could say, right? Yeah, yeah. Okay. [01:23:25] But one thing we don’t talk about is how it’s affecting men as well. [01:23:30] So you just gave a great example, Sophie. But I also think that [01:23:35] this like, fundamental way that it’s programmed us men and women [01:23:40] hurts us. So in terms of if I’m in a relationship and I’m making more money, [01:23:45] and I’m with a man who, rather than actually being like in his true healthy masculine [01:23:50] is almost too programmed by the patriarchy to overvalue [01:23:55] the dollar amount. Yeah, yeah. Then it’s not going to go well [01:24:00] because his ego is just going to be hurt the entire time. So I think it’s the answer [01:24:05] to me is absolutely, those relationships can work, but you need someone who’s very secure in themselves [01:24:10] and isn’t ascribing to these like, ideals that are coming from these systems. [01:24:15]

Payman Langroudi: Have you been you’ve been to Holland? Yeah, I’ve.

Sophie Lovett: Been to the Netherlands.

Payman Langroudi: In in in Netherlands, you can’t hold a [01:24:20] door open for a woman. It’s a bit rude.

Sophie Lovett: I know we kept walking into.

Ashley King: The door open for everyone, but [01:24:25] for men and women.

Payman Langroudi: As a man, it’s a bit rude, you know, like the after you like it’s it’s not.

Sophie Lovett: On [01:24:30] there that that that saying go Dutch, go Dutch. Exactly.

Ashley King: I held the door open yesterday in [01:24:35] Greece for a man. He was very offended. Is that right? So you got to be careful holding [01:24:40] the door open for people, apparently.

Sophie Lovett: But, you know, so we were in the Netherlands not too long ago at the Netherlands [01:24:45] Dental show.

Payman Langroudi: And I love the Dutch. They are.

Sophie Lovett: Amazing. We love it. They come [01:24:50] up to us and they say we we hate you. We hate the look of you. We don’t like this. And [01:24:55] we think, oh my God, they’re so honest. Yeah. And then they say, and you think, oh gosh, [01:25:00] what’s the point of being here? And then they say, we will buy ten of your products. It’s just [01:25:05] it’s, you know, but yeah, it’s, it’s great. The honesty. We, we like that, don’t we? But [01:25:10] yeah, and what I found even in the Netherlands is a lot of people coming up and saying, [01:25:15] and a lot of hygienists own practices out there, and they say, I’m just a hygienist. [01:25:20] So I was thinking all of this great progression that they have in the Netherlands, [01:25:25] but people are still saying, I’m just a hygienist. I was like.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a there’s [01:25:30] a hierarchy in dentistry. You know, it’s difficult, but it’s real.

Sophie Lovett: But I’m talking about [01:25:35] there were probably about seven people who said that to me. All practice owners hygiene [01:25:40] only. So it’s not. So again, one thing I’ve really, really noticed about dentistry is it’s a pyramid [01:25:45] scheme of this kind of God figure at the top. And then it’s just always this pyramid [01:25:50] scheme. But you know, when you take away the that what is perceived as the head [01:25:55] of the pyramid scheme, i.e. the dentist or the specialist dentist away from it, why should [01:26:00] anybody be just, you know, why is anyone just we’ve got some amazing hygienist therapists, you’ve got Kat [01:26:05] London therapists and stuff. I think perceptions about roles really need to change [01:26:10] as well. And I think, again, that’s a feminine thing, a feminist thing. I think that we need [01:26:15] to start really talking ourselves up and being like, we’re doing a hell of a lot more as therapists and hygienists as some [01:26:20] dentists are. But I just thought that I’m just a was really surprising, particularly [01:26:25] in the Netherlands, where.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a country like that. Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: And, you know, my arm was hurting from having [01:26:30] to open my own doors.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s get to some quick fires. What [01:26:35] would you guys say is your favourite business influence? Like your, your [01:26:40] person in business that you admire the most.

Ashley King: Inside or outside of Pearl? [01:26:45]

Payman Langroudi: Outside of Pearl?

Ashley King: I’m really into Fred Kaufman right now. Who’s [01:26:50] that? He talks about compassionate leadership.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Ashley King: Not many people know [01:26:55] about him. I learned about him from the CEO of LinkedIn, Jeff Weiner. Um, [01:27:00] he has this theory that businesses [01:27:05] fail because they go down two paths, which is I’m [01:27:10] responsible for my portion. You’re responsible for yours. So it’s more of like a democratic. And [01:27:15] then like what we do individually will make the company succeed. So that’s one path. Then there’s like the [01:27:20] more communist path, which is like we all pitch in, but we all know that that model does not [01:27:25] work. Um, his thing is in order to mitigate [01:27:30] silos, but also not be too communistic, you need to have [01:27:35] compassionate leadership, which is undying support and love for the people [01:27:40] that you work with. And so it’s almost like this emotional piece fitting [01:27:45] in with the logic of business. And I just think [01:27:50] it’s beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting though, you said to me, I said to her fear about, um, business [01:27:55] being like a bit of a family, which is kind of what you’re alluding to. And he said, he said, [01:28:00] certainly not pro sports team, not family.

Ashley King: No, I agree with that statement. And [01:28:05] okay, let me let me put it this way. You’re a goalie. What’s your job? [01:28:10]

Payman Langroudi: Uh, Cody.

Ashley King: What’s [01:28:15] your what’s your job on the team? What’s your. Yeah, [01:28:20] but what do you do?

Sophie Lovett: I say he doesn’t like football.

Ashley King: You save goals. I don’t [01:28:25] like football either. But everyone knows what a goalie does, right? And most people’s answer [01:28:30] is block the ball from going into the goal. Right. But no, that’s not their job. Their job is to win. [01:28:35] Yeah, yeah. And so it’s this idea that people can, in a [01:28:40] company, you can become so self-focused if you don’t have support and love for the people [01:28:45] around you, you won’t be actually successful. I don’t the family thing is toxic. [01:28:50] Yeah. Like they say, you can’t fire your family. I think that’s what a fear said. Um, we’re [01:28:55] all working towards one goal together though, and it’s going to be a lot more fun. We’re going to be a lot more [01:29:00] successful if we actually like each other and support each other.

Payman Langroudi: For sure, for sure. And you’re kind of alluding to that famous [01:29:05] story about the janitor at the NASA who’s helping put the guy on the moon or whatever. Yeah. [01:29:10]

Ashley King: Same with the hygienist, right?

Sophie Lovett: Do you know what? I’m gonna be really [01:29:15] boring here, but every day I’m looking at what makes a commercial dental [01:29:20] practice or group run. And I’m not not found [01:29:25] the sweet spot yet because it’s it’s so different. But you can look at people like [01:29:30] Anushka from Dermira Dev Patel. I mean, what Fazeela has done for Coliseum. And then [01:29:35] you can look at something completely different, like Mark Allen’s impact at Bupa. [01:29:40] And I think that I know these aren’t people who’ve written well, maybe they are haven’t necessarily [01:29:45] written books, but they’ve all done something that is completely different. I mean, [01:29:50] dev looks at the US model and he’s got the kind of beauty partners model they’ve they’ve [01:29:55] just bought in Curadon. You’ve got Anushka who is just [01:30:00] I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Extraordinary.

Sophie Lovett: Extraordinary in every sense in terms of how [01:30:05] she procures, how she runs her team. Everything. I mean, I [01:30:10] there must be 70 of her. I don’t know how she how she does it. And then she goes and does a marathon.

Speaker 8: Three [01:30:15] children, three children.

Sophie Lovett: Stunningly beautiful, you know. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: I was thinking [01:30:20] more outside of that.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. But I mean, I’m just looking at it from the commercial perspective as well, because now [01:30:25] nowadays where we’re looking to move, you know, we’re moving much away from the NHS model and [01:30:30] we’re still within an NHS system, how people are making this commercial [01:30:35] entity drive in. Um, you know, we’ve, we’ve went from kind [01:30:40] of like veneers ten, 15 years ago now we’ve got composite [01:30:45] and then it’s clear aligners and stuff. These people are constantly changing but constantly evolving and adapting [01:30:50] to this crazy commercial landscape. Um, and outside of, [01:30:55] outside of dental. Um, my absolute [01:31:00] mentor, um, Jess Clydesdale, who I went to university with [01:31:05] has been instrumental in, um, absolutely everything I’ve done in [01:31:10] terms of what jobs I’ve taken, what I should ask for, who I, who I speak [01:31:15] to about getting a pay rise. Like we bully each other up. Um, and I’m going to be a [01:31:20] complete sycophant here and say that Ashley and I talk every single day about how we can be better [01:31:25] every day. Um, yeah. Like I can look to these books and stuff.

Speaker 8: But man, [01:31:30] you.

Payman Langroudi: It’s obvious you’re enjoying yourself at the same time. It’s obvious you’re very professional. [01:31:35] You know, you’re, you’ve got a goal. You know, it’s not just fun.

Ashley King: It’s like you’re in it to win it. But [01:31:40] we’re.

Payman Langroudi: Also.

Ashley King: We’re best friends. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And but it’s obvious you’re loving it. You know, you’re loving relationship. [01:31:45]

Sophie Lovett: You know what? We’re not always we don’t always. I feel like we don’t say what we want [01:31:50] to hear all the time. Like we say the things that are harder hitting that, you know, when [01:31:55] you love somebody so deeply that you can say things that are going to be constructively critical. [01:32:00] One of the best, best things that’s happened in my life is Ashley King in terms of [01:32:05] I think we’ve just really kind of supported each other up and we don’t [01:32:10] get jealous of each other. We are so excited. I mean, this was just supposed to be you today and [01:32:15] we just could be apart.

Ashley King: We’re a package deal. I there’s stats [01:32:20] that say if you work with your best friend, you’re more productive and you’re more likely to stay at your company. [01:32:25] Makes sense. And then at previous companies, I still talk to my best friend at that last [01:32:30] company. Like one of them, she just had a baby. And we send voice memos, you know, [01:32:35] weekly. And so I think it goes back to we’re spending most of our time at work. Why [01:32:40] not love the people that you work with? And it doesn’t mean that you’re the identity of your relationship [01:32:45] has to revolve completely around work. And it doesn’t mean that they have to [01:32:50] be family, because I think you can use and abuse people if you label them that way. But, [01:32:55] um, there’s just, I mean, we’re spending the time at work. Why not [01:33:00] do the most important thing in life and build relationships that matter.

Sophie Lovett: I think pearls is quite lucky [01:33:05] that it has such a well, it’s, you know, it’s done things. It’s done so many things right, [01:33:10] but it’s got such we’ve got such a good team. We’re about what, 300 now in the company. And but [01:33:15] there’s people who like working together. And because of that, I mean we work more hours than we [01:33:20] would if we didn’t enjoy each other’s company. Yeah. We have the best team here in the UK.

Ashley King: We’ll go to [01:33:25] dinner sometimes and, you know, just end up talking about work the whole time and then we’ll solve a [01:33:30] huge problem. But you know, you think about Paul Graham, who he he’s over Y Combinator. [01:33:35] He’s been a bunch of the early start-ups tech start-ups. He says don’t [01:33:40] start a company without a co-founder.

Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah. His big thing.

Ashley King: Yeah. It’s [01:33:45] super important. So you need to have your people and Sophie’s mine.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:33:50] about if I say, what’s your biggest mistake you’ve made in business? [01:33:55]

Ashley King: Um, for me, I would say trying [01:34:00] too hard.

Payman Langroudi: Trying to sell something [01:34:05] to someone who doesn’t want to buy it.

Speaker 8: Yeah.

Ashley King: Or just, you know, you work with a partner, it’s not working [01:34:10] or you’re trying to go into a territory. The territory is a good example.

Sophie Lovett: I think it’s [01:34:15] a mistake. I love, you know, we’re.

Ashley King: Still working on it. We haven’t given up. But like we just don’t [01:34:20] have the right people or things in place right now to be successful there. Yeah. And it’s like sunk cost fallacy [01:34:25] almost. But I look back at all of the amazing things [01:34:30] that have happened to me and my successes, and a lot of them did not involve an [01:34:35] enormous amount of effort of trying to make it work.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right.

Ashley King: It’s I believe.

Sophie Lovett: It was something that [01:34:40] just fit like it’s.

Ashley King: Alignment. Yeah, yeah. So I think, and, and when you’re trying [01:34:45] too hard, you’re not having fun.

Speaker 8: Yeah. You’re right.

Sophie Lovett: You know, something Ashley does is she’ll [01:34:50] tell you what she’s great at. And then you look at what she’s great at. My biggest mistake in [01:34:55] business and life was I used to not speak very nicely about myself, so I would go [01:35:00] in maybe for a 1 to 1 with a manager and I would say, I’m so sorry I haven’t done this yet. I’m [01:35:05] so, you know, apologising, you know, maybe not to that extent, but directing people towards my [01:35:10] flaws.

Speaker 8: Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: And again, I think that this is where I’m trying to change that. Maybe it’s a masculine thing [01:35:15] where you go in and you say, I have done this, I’m doing amazingly. How you know I’m [01:35:20] indispensable.

Payman Langroudi: It’s kind of a self-confidence issue, I guess.

Sophie Lovett: And it’s totally changed in [01:35:25] the last few years. Um, it has completely transformed. And now I just feel so confident [01:35:30] about going in and saying, here’s what I’m doing. You need me. But for a long time, that wasn’t [01:35:35] the case. Or in my perception was that. But perception is reality, as you always say.

Ashley King: I [01:35:40] think that you made a good point about it being a confidence thing, because what [01:35:45] Sophie is, is very authentic. But if if you’re being authentic [01:35:50] and you don’t actually like yourself, yeah, you know, authenticity is great, [01:35:55] but make sure you like yourself first.

Sophie Lovett: But we have. We collectively [01:36:00] we have been. Some of our biggest mistakes are that we have ground [01:36:05] ourselves to the bone. Right. And we have worked so hard. And then every now and then we just need to stop and say, what’s it [01:36:10] for? Okay. You live life once. We also need to go. Have a lovely time.

Ashley King: Yeah. Go [01:36:15] on.

Sophie Lovett: Holiday. Yeah. And I think both, every time we reset and do something that’s away from work, [01:36:20] we come back with just a better mentality, a way of going [01:36:25] about things. And, you know, it’s not just about being in this bubble.

Payman Langroudi: I also think it’s [01:36:30] important to have those times during the week, you know, times where you’re not full on. [01:36:35] Yeah. Times, time. I think it’s important to have time where you’re not expected [01:36:40] to do anything. Yeah.

Ashley King: Are you talking about. I [01:36:45] think of this in two ways. Like personal selfish time has nothing to do [01:36:50] with work or anyone else. It’s like pursuing.

Payman Langroudi: What I’m saying. It’s good for work. It’s good for.

Ashley King: You. So you’re talking. So the second [01:36:55] way I was going to say is, and this is what two women who are very successful at our [01:37:00] company have told me, they said you need at least 90 minutes a week, preferably [01:37:05] a day to strategize. Yeah. You’re not doing anything. So I’ve [01:37:10] tried to like bake that into my schedule.

Sophie Lovett: And what, like strategizing about your life outside of work? [01:37:15]

Ashley King: No. At work? Yeah. Like if you’re in meetings.

Payman Langroudi: When I was when I was an associate dentist, I [01:37:20] mean, as a practice principle, like it’s a different story, but an associate dentist, I went from [01:37:25] 5 to 4 days, and on the fifth day I thought I’d be [01:37:30] enlightened. Yeah. Yeah. There would be no enlightened if I was working five days a week.

Sophie Lovett: Is that what you called it? [01:37:35] Enlightened? Was it an enlightening moment for you on that fifth day? Sounds [01:37:40] quite biblical.

Payman Langroudi: But honestly, I wouldn’t have. I really wouldn’t have. Because on that [01:37:45] fifth day, I was reading self-development books. 26 year old kid. I was reading self-development books [01:37:50] and I was thinking about what to do and all of that. Um, and, but now [01:37:55] that I reckon 90 minutes a day is actually right. Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: One of our core values [01:38:00] at Pearl is be an owner. Mhm. And yeah, that really feeds [01:38:05] into that. And I think they genuinely do not micromanage. They allow us to do [01:38:10] our thing, you know, provided that you’re doing something that is for the cause. And it’s allowed [01:38:15] us, as you said earlier, doing this, doing things that have really got Pearl’s name out there. I [01:38:20] mean.

Payman Langroudi: Now you’ve done a good job, you’ve done a good job.

Sophie Lovett: I think we’ve done an excellent job. Yeah. [01:38:25] I mean, who knew about Pearl wasn’t here before 2020, [01:38:30] 2019. And now, you know, if you haven’t got [01:38:35] it, you know about it. This is based on a few people in the UK team.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:38:40] think maybe now’s a good time to talk about your competitor.

Sophie Lovett: Go on then.

Payman Langroudi: Go [01:38:45] on.

Sophie Lovett: We don’t see them.

Ashley King: We have we have several competitors. Yeah we have a which one are you talking about. [01:38:50]

Payman Langroudi: So what’s your USP? As as you know, in this in this category, in this space, compared to [01:38:55] competitors USP, I mean, um, let’s just go with Overjet for the sake of the argument.

Sophie Lovett: I [01:39:00] like this question. Right. So we have been put on this land on this UK territory. [01:39:05] Yeah. To learn and listen, the reason that we have partners in the Netherlands [01:39:10] looking for some in Australia, in the Nordics is because Pearl knows [01:39:15] that dentistry is different in every single different territory. What really sets us apart [01:39:20] is the product here is not the same as it is in the US. It’s different. We have [01:39:25] gathered information that’s allowed us to be super compliant [01:39:30] in the different territories. Some of them, some of our, our, um, competitor [01:39:35] products. They’re not patient facing because they’ve not got the compliance because they don’t know where to look. [01:39:40] So I think one of the things is the robustness of the data that’s trained the product. And [01:39:45] that’s not just we’ve just looked at people in the US, The product has been trained on [01:39:50] radiographs from all over the world. Okay, we’ve listened to what is needed. We’ve [01:39:55] got rid of what’s extraneous and what’s not required for the UK or other territories. [01:40:00] And we’re here. We have clinicians in the UK who work for Pearl who [01:40:05] understand UK dentistry. Again, our partners have clinicians in [01:40:10] the Netherlands and the Nordics who understand UK dentistry territory dentistry. That [01:40:15] is for me, the biggest differentiator. And first and foremost, [01:40:20] we’re actually within the products themselves. So we understand the workflow as well. We do not sit [01:40:25] in our rooms all day. We go out, we go into.

Payman Langroudi: The positioning of Pearl compared [01:40:30] to other competitors.

Ashley King: So I think like right now, Sophie gave a good picture as [01:40:35] to why we’re different in this moment. Fundamentally, [01:40:40] as an organisation. My big I’m [01:40:45] like an evangelist on culture. It’s really annoying and it sounds really cheesy, [01:40:50] but culture eats strategy for breakfast.

Sophie Lovett: Mhm.

Ashley King: The [01:40:55] people at Pearl and our mission and vision is what differentiates [01:41:00] us from our partner or our competitors. I also ascribe [01:41:05] to. I’m reading 0 to 1 right now by Peter Thiel. Say what you may about him. He’s [01:41:10] a genius.

Payman Langroudi: The book.

Ashley King: Yeah. Yeah. Good book. And his thing is, competition is for losers, right? We [01:41:15] created a product where really no one had had created a 2D detection. [01:41:20] We have a few competitors now, but where we’re moving and the movements [01:41:25] that we’re making, you can see in the US to add on workflow efficiency [01:41:30] products, etc.. And we plan on doing this globally as well, [01:41:35] catered to the specific markets. It goes back to what our ethos [01:41:40] is, which is allowing dentists to provide the best patient care and get back to dentistry. [01:41:45] Um, and I think because we have this fundamental [01:41:50] altruistic in a way, like we want to make dentistry, we’re elevating [01:41:55] the standard of dentistry, right? This is our why. And that that’s going to be out any [01:42:00] competitor where that’s not clear.

Payman Langroudi: So look, I mean, if you had $1 billion [01:42:05] exit before. Yeah. So he knows what he’s doing. Yeah. But what is he doing. [01:42:10] I mean, how is it that the culture is so like you’re on the other side of the world? How do they get their culture [01:42:15] over to you?

Ashley King: I think I mean, you said it, he he could have probably just retired [01:42:20] if he wanted to. He’s doing it for the love of the game. And he’s doing it because he wants to impact an industry.

Payman Langroudi: Like [01:42:25] if you were advising me, I want to get culture through to my team.

Sophie Lovett: He came here, right?

Payman Langroudi: There’s only 40 of them. [01:42:30]

Sophie Lovett: He comes to see us. This is the thing. You know, he has a real presence.

Ashley King: Number one for sure.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [01:42:35]

Sophie Lovett: He really is a presence. Yeah. It’s his baby. And you’ve got to remember, he is the son of a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:42:40] yeah, yeah.

Sophie Lovett: And, uh, the his co-founder, Doctor Carl Stanley.

Ashley King: I think it’s really [01:42:45] basic. It’s like it goes back to the Simon Sinek start with why like all this, what’s your [01:42:50] why? But the way that you actually execute on it is [01:42:55] showing up. And you have to tell your team what it is and [01:43:00] keep saying it over and over. Repetition, get them bought in. Also, I’m like so much more excited to go to work [01:43:05] and say, I’m, I’m fundamentally changing dentistry than I’m glad I’m, I’m adding shareholder value. [01:43:10] Like no one wakes up in the morning wanting to do that.

Payman Langroudi: Of course.

Sophie Lovett: I think he, you know, I think he likes the people he works with as well. [01:43:15] You know, he wants to have this. He’s a cool guy. He’s an amazing product. He’s an absolute [01:43:20] genius, isn’t he? Yeah. But this weekend he was whatsapping me. You know, he it feels really [01:43:25] personal. And again, it feels like that we’re passing that on [01:43:30] to our users as well. We work with people we like to work with, but we also [01:43:35] provide value with this product. That’s excellent. I think you kind of have to have both. You [01:43:40] know, the reason that people buy something sometimes is like, oh yeah, it’s a great product. But actually [01:43:45] I really like who I’m working with. These guys know what they’re doing. We know what we’re doing, and [01:43:50] I think we really listen as well. And that’s what affair does. He still runs all the company calls [01:43:55] us. And you know, if he wants to chime in [01:44:00] and say something, he will. It’s really personal.

Ashley King: It’s authentic. It just goes. And [01:44:05] you know, you’re talking about the 3D reality and what we can see. But they say authenticity [01:44:10] has like the highest vibration and like wavelength. That’s what the spiritual world says. [01:44:15] And I think that that is what it’s authenticity. Yeah. We’re [01:44:20] all here. And you trust me, you’re not going to work at Pearl if you don’t believe in the mission and vision, because you’re going [01:44:25] to work really hard for something you don’t care about, right? We’re all here because we love the [01:44:30] mission we have. And like, we love the game. So. And that comes from [01:44:35] top down, right?

Payman Langroudi: It is cool.

Sophie Lovett: It’s really cool, isn’t it? I was doing some filming, uh, with [01:44:40] a group called Jen Smile. Stunning practices, by the way. Went to my first dental [01:44:45] practice with a swimming pool. Thank you.

Ashley King: Okay.

Sophie Lovett: It was gorgeous.

Ashley King: Can we go there this summer and just [01:44:50] get a tan? Absolutely.

Sophie Lovett: Jen, smile if you’re listening. Um, and, uh, so I was doing the filming [01:44:55] and this videographer came along and he said to me, it was really nice filming something [01:45:00] where I understood the product whilst I was filming it. So he had no idea about it beforehand. But [01:45:05] um, he said he got it really, really quickly. He said it [01:45:10] was such a cool product, but it also makes him filming a lot easier because [01:45:15] he knows where to sort of change things, cut things when when he knows what it is. He says he films [01:45:20] so many times where he just absolutely has no idea what the person does or the company does.

Ashley King: Wow. [01:45:25]

Sophie Lovett: Um, so we’ve just got so many different things. We’ve got so many [01:45:30] strings to this bow that just, I feel really privileged to be able to work here. It’s, I mean, there’s people [01:45:35] lining up to work here. It’s it’s tough. It’s so tough. Um, [01:45:40] but it’s so rewarding as well.

Payman Langroudi: I did a bit on another pod. Yeah. And I [01:45:45] enjoyed it. So I want to throw it in now. It’s unrelated to kind of work. It’s kind of a guilty pleasures [01:45:50] section. What’s your guilty pleasure when it comes to food? [01:45:55] Fast food.

Ashley King: Honest [01:46:00] burger.

Payman Langroudi: Honest.

Ashley King: I’m a big fan.

Payman Langroudi: Have you had have you had the black [01:46:05] Bear?

Ashley King: No.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness. There’s one around the corner. Unbelievable.

Ashley King: Let’s go.

Sophie Lovett: What’s yours? [01:46:10] Is that.

Payman Langroudi: Kfc? Kfc?

Sophie Lovett: No, no, no, it’s not that.

Ashley King: That’s a [01:46:15] good choice.

Sophie Lovett: My mum used to make when she was at university. She’d like, does this whole, uh, woe [01:46:20] is me thing? And she went to Preston Polytechnic, which I think is now the University of Central Lancashire. [01:46:25] Um, but she used to make soup with KFC bones. [01:46:30]

Payman Langroudi: Oh yeah.

Sophie Lovett: She was a poor student, apparently. And so no, not, necessarily. [01:46:35] I don’t know, whatever I have anything.

Payman Langroudi: Guilty pleasure. Music.

Ashley King: Oh. [01:46:40] Like 90s. Country. Country.

Sophie Lovett: 90s country.

Ashley King: Shania Twain. [01:46:45] Oh, yeah. I’m going out tonight. Looks like we made [01:46:50] it. Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: I could just listen to divorced.

Ashley King: After that song.

Sophie Lovett: I [01:46:55] could listen to The kinks and and Fleetwood Mac and Beatles all day on repeat. [01:47:00]

Ashley King: Oh, sunny day by the kinks.

Payman Langroudi: Before your time.

Sophie Lovett: Slightly before my time, yeah. And the kinks, [01:47:05] yeah. I love the kinks so much. They’re so good.

Ashley King: You put me on to them. The kinks. [01:47:10] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about if you had nothing like. No, no no work, no expectation. You had half a day to yourself. What would [01:47:15] you do?

Sophie Lovett: I’d probably download Candy crush.

Payman Langroudi: Do you like it?

Sophie Lovett: No. [01:47:20] I really have to avoid having games on my phone. I just think. [01:47:25]

Payman Langroudi: You get addicted.

Sophie Lovett: Oh, yeah, they are, but they are designed to do that. You know, I think a lot of people would probably [01:47:30] think that and not say it, but, I mean, I love a cryptic crossword. I’m such a loser. So [01:47:35] either give me a cryptic crossword or Candy crush. No, I don’t have Candy crush. But honestly, if I had. [01:47:40] If I had no work to do. I hate being bored. I hate being bored. But I would probably download [01:47:45] phone games. Oh.

Ashley King: That’s so funny.

Sophie Lovett: Sorry. Oh no, I wouldn’t read. I’d just waste.

Payman Langroudi: Time [01:47:50] stuck in the guilty pleasure bit. Oh. What about.

Ashley King: You? Half day off.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ashley King: Oh, [01:47:55] man.

Payman Langroudi: Go berserk. Whole day off. Honestly, like no expectation.

Ashley King: I’m. [01:48:00] My ass is in a chair on the beach. And I’m getting a tan. I’m drinking pina [01:48:05] colada.

Payman Langroudi: That’s why you’re in London.

Sophie Lovett: Oh, I thought you meant if we couldn’t do. If we had no, like, money.

Payman Langroudi: Or you’re [01:48:10] in.

Sophie Lovett: London.

Ashley King: Yeah, right. I know, I know, maybe maybe I’m [01:48:15] in Kent on the coast on a nice sunny day.

Sophie Lovett: We’re in. We’re in a small swimming pool in Dorchester. [01:48:20]

Ashley King: No, Saint Ives is great. I went there two years ago. It was beautiful. But yeah, [01:48:25] I think I would.

Sophie Lovett: Do one hand strawberry daiquiri, the other.

Ashley King: This is. That’s like Sophie’s thing. She’ll order [01:48:30] both at one time.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent.

Ashley King: She looks like a total alcoholic.

Sophie Lovett: It’s called a Miami [01:48:35] Vice. Yeah. And I do like Miami Vice, but I like to have. I feel very even. [01:48:40] When am I going to Dental forum? Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent.

Sophie Lovett: Are you.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:48:45] don’t know.

Sophie Lovett: I tell you where we are going.

Payman Langroudi: Two days after the Ministry of Health.

Sophie Lovett: We’re going to the Ministry of Sound, aren’t we, Ashley?

Ashley King: We [01:48:50] are.

Sophie Lovett: We fought for this.

Payman Langroudi: So you have to go to Dental forum. Like you have to leave. You know you can’t leave on the Sunday [01:48:55] morning. You have to.

Sophie Lovett: Leave. I’m having I’m having a day recovery from. No, we might leave [01:49:00] slightly early. I don’t think we’re going to drink at the Minimalist Ministry, are we?

Ashley King: Definitely not.

Payman Langroudi: Final [01:49:05] questions. A fantasy dinner party. Three guests, dead or alive? [01:49:10]

Ashley King: Okay, so I was thinking about this. It depends on what the vibe is like. [01:49:15] Are we. Is this like a fun dinner party? Am I trying to learn?

Payman Langroudi: If you want to have fun. [01:49:20] Have fun. Invite invite a fun guy. Okay.

Ashley King: I [01:49:25] my answer to you would be Mur Mira [01:49:30] murati. She is a. She was the CTO of OpenAI.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [01:49:35]

Ashley King: And now she runs thinking labs.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Ashley King: She’s like one of the more prominent women [01:49:40] behind the AI movement that no one knows about it. Um, [01:49:45] so I would like to.

Payman Langroudi: Wish you from Romania.

Ashley King: She’s Albanian, I think. Albanian.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I’ve [01:49:50] seen I’ve seen the profile.

Ashley King: And I keep trying to find different like podcasts and like, she just has [01:49:55] very little presence. So I would like to sit in a room with her and ask her some [01:50:00] questions. She seems like a genius. Um, the second person. So this [01:50:05] is, by the way, this dinner is like trying to learn everything that I can. Dinner. [01:50:10] Not a fun dinner. So, Sophie, I think you’d be really bored if.

Sophie Lovett: Ashley’s, like, real. [01:50:15] So she sends me on Instagram. Have changed from being, like to, like, code. Yeah. [01:50:20] Claude hack.

Ashley King: This is my toxic productivity. Taking [01:50:25] a fun exercise and turning it into. Anyway, um, the next person who [01:50:30] I would like to learn. Paul Graham um, and then Nikola [01:50:35] Tesla.

Payman Langroudi: Nikola Tesla. Yeah. Yeah. Well done.

Ashley King: Um, I feel like there’s a lot that [01:50:40] he discovered, especially around free energy and all these [01:50:45] scientists that have been dying. There’s like 12 different scientists who are studying something adjacent to what he.

Payman Langroudi: Said, something [01:50:50] about propulsion.

Ashley King: And like anti-gravity. And I think all of it goes back to the free energy. [01:50:55] And so I’m very fascinated. That’s I have ADHD, so I get like very. Did you study in uni, public [01:51:00] health and biology? Oh, really? Yeah. So yep. That’s who it would be a [01:51:05] very interesting. Everyone would be way smarter than me. But that’s how you learn.

Sophie Lovett: Who [01:51:10] do I have? I’m not going to go Joe Lovitz route and say my partner. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:51:15] don’t allow I don’t allow that.

Sophie Lovett: In my partner.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t allow that answer. I never allow that.

Sophie Lovett: She’s Cuban though, [01:51:20] so, you know, so I would probably have, oh my gosh, I’m such a loser. But I just love Rory [01:51:25] Stewart So much Rory Love Rory Stewart so much. Do you know who I [01:51:30] would love to hear from? Whether it’s in her voice or her [01:51:35] fake voice is, I want to know what Elizabeth Holmes actually thinks. I [01:51:40] wouldn’t have that.

Ashley King: Sophie has like a weird she’s like, weirdly, she’s even wearing the black shirt [01:51:45] like like black turtleneck.

Sophie Lovett: I was talking today about like, how I can change my voice. Um, I [01:51:50] just think like, once you go lower, then you become more successful.

Ashley King: So if Sophie starts a [01:51:55] company after this, be concerned.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, if I, if I, if.

Payman Langroudi: You’re fascinated by the way she pulled the wool [01:52:00] over everyone’s eyes.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. And if like, how much she’s deluding [01:52:05] herself about what she did and didn’t know. Right.

Ashley King: Like I feel like she was actually, I think she actually believed [01:52:10] that she could do it. Like, I don’t think she went into minutes.

Sophie Lovett: Five more minutes, right? Like 5 [01:52:15] million more.

Ashley King: She was just so pathological that she believed her own lies kind of thing.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. Um, [01:52:20] I need someone funny. Um, I mean, you can come to my dinner party if [01:52:25] you want. No, no. No, man. Um, Nick garrison from Pearl. [01:52:30] So funny.

Ashley King: Also super smart.

Sophie Lovett: So [01:52:35] smart.

Ashley King: Went to Harvard. Smart guy.

Sophie Lovett: Um, no, I don’t know.

Ashley King: I think that’s a good answer. We’ll leave it at [01:52:40] Nick.

Sophie Lovett: Let’s leave it with Nick.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Sophie Lovett: Have you met Nick?

Payman Langroudi: No.

Sophie Lovett: He, like, he, um. [01:52:45] He. He’d come in in his overalls. You’d be like, oh, this room doesn’t need painting [01:52:50] today.

Ashley King: Our joke with Nick is, like, which tradesperson are you dressed as today? Yeah. [01:52:55]

Sophie Lovett: You, like, dislike.

Ashley King: Struggling artists.

Sophie Lovett: Disney.

Ashley King: Bouncers.

Sophie Lovett: And architects.

Ashley King: But [01:53:00] he actually is good style.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. And like, this guy will give you the brutal [01:53:05] truth as well. Like.

Payman Langroudi: Is he based in L.A., though?

Sophie Lovett: He’s based in LA. His ideas [01:53:10] and morals are so spot on as well. He’s he’s really trying to do a [01:53:15] lot now for the UK and um, in terms of how we can support [01:53:20] paediatric dental care as well. He’s he’s a really kind of moral smart guy.

Ashley King: He is [01:53:25] he he’s also someone who I think has really maybe [01:53:30] he’s more vocal about them, but he has contrarian beliefs compared to what I like. [01:53:35] I’ll say something that I think is a great idea. And then he’ll be like, no, you’re completely wrong. And let me [01:53:40] tell you why. And I’m like, damn, yeah, yeah, you’re kind of right, actually.

Sophie Lovett: And [01:53:45] also he’s.

Ashley King: Like, he.

Sophie Lovett: Just, he like, he kind of like [01:53:50] morally name drops as well. So he’ll just be like, oh yeah, Jen [01:53:55] and Jen and Brad or like Jen and.

Payman Langroudi: Get into ministry. Well.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, [01:54:00] he’s a good guy. Ministry. Yeah. A lot of people want to come to ministry. Tell us [01:54:05] about ministry.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, we’re gonna have so much fun.

Sophie Lovett: We’re gonna have so.

Payman Langroudi: Much, so much fun trying experimental [01:54:10] education in this new, new setting.

Sophie Lovett: Can I ask you a question?

Payman Langroudi: Sure.

Sophie Lovett: If [01:54:15] you were principal again, would you have Pearl?

Payman Langroudi: Oh, of course, I [01:54:20] was never a principal there. I never owned a practice.

Sophie Lovett: Make Payman principal again. [01:54:25] But you say. You say, of course. So definitively. [01:54:30] What makes you say that?

Payman Langroudi: The trust question. What I said about trust. It’s [01:54:35] huge. I was good at knowing what dentistry was about. I was, I enjoyed it, I enjoyed [01:54:40] being a dentist. Um, definitely. It’s about trust. Yeah. Yeah. That’s [01:54:45] the key point. Um, it’s a bit like, you know, you know that thing EMS do that. Uh, gee, [01:54:50] what’s it? Guided biofilm therapy. Yeah. On paper it sounds ridiculous. [01:54:55] Yeah, it’s a 200 £0 scaler. That’s crazy. Whereas it’s, you know, it’s the [01:55:00] regular scale is like $500. This thing’s like 20 grand. Yeah, it sounds ridiculous, [01:55:05] but every single patient goes through that thing and it makes a [01:55:10] cleaning much more comfortable. Yeah. And when you realise that the value [01:55:15] of it’s way more than 20,000.

Ashley King: Right.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s, it’s one of those things.

Sophie Lovett: So seeing past [01:55:20] the face value of something and then looking into.

Payman Langroudi: Like a no brainer.

Sophie Lovett: It isn’t a.

Payman Langroudi: Total [01:55:25] no brainer. And I didn’t even realise it was that cheap. I thought it’d be much more.

Sophie Lovett: I know, I know, when.

Ashley King: I joined, I was like, [01:55:30] that’s all we charge. But now, you know, we get pushback on price all the time. So I don’t [01:55:35] know. It depends.

Sophie Lovett: People often say, and who you are is that, like you said, is that that’s not per [01:55:40] practice. Is that per chair?

Payman Langroudi: Per chair?

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. But people do have single chair practices who pay for it. I [01:55:45] mean, and I’ve said to everybody, cancel it. If if it’s not making [01:55:50] that return and we have no cancellations, do we. It’s um.

Ashley King: Very low churn.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, [01:55:55] yeah. It’s an incredible product. We’re very lucky to be working here.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:56:00] wish my people were as enthusiastic about my stuff as.

Sophie Lovett: They love working.

Ashley King: Sometimes I feel like I’m in a cult. I’m like, am [01:56:05] I gonna realise like, ten years from now? You know, like hindsight is 2020, like.

Sophie Lovett: Send [01:56:10] us that special water, don’t they? That we have to drink?

Ashley King: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. That medicine, that pill [01:56:15] we have to take every morning. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t turn up to that final meeting at Mafia’s [01:56:20] country home.

Ashley King: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sophie Lovett: He sent us.

Ashley King: He said something about kool aid. [01:56:25] I don’t know, it was weird.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive pleasure. Thank you so much for coming. I really [01:56:30] enjoyed.

Ashley King: It. Thank you so much.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, [01:56:35] the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:56:40] Your hosts Payman [01:56:45] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki : Thanks for listening guys. If [01:56:50] you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me [01:56:55] and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to [01:57:00] say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about [01:57:05] subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get [01:57:10] some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki : And don’t forget our six star [01:57:15] rating.