Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] enlightened Online training.com to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time. Whitening Underwhelms try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where [00:00:30] you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and [00:00:40] Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Sheena [00:00:45] Gillan onto the podcast. Sheena has just finished [00:00:50] DC Dental Corps Training two and is in practice. [00:00:55] Yeah. Yeah. So first time I met you, you were a T plus one. F [00:01:00] t plus one.

Sina Gilannejad: Just finished.

Payman Langroudi: So did you go f t straight into DCT or did you have a stint [00:01:05] in practice?

Sina Gilannejad: I went, I went f d straight into DCT straight in DCT. Yeah. I um [00:01:10] I finished f d and I just had like [00:01:15] a crippling anxiety for extractions was the main thing. So if I had [00:01:20] an extraction the day after or the day before, I wasn’t sleeping, stress stressed the whole time and [00:01:25] I’d always end up like snapping at the roots of everything. Like just it haunted [00:01:30] me. And it sucked because in dental school, I was really good. So I was like, that’s [00:01:35] to summarise it. But I was like, I cannot live my life like this. [00:01:40] So I, I did DD1I went to to where you studied. Yeah. [00:01:45]

Payman Langroudi: When was that for DC1 and two.

Sina Gilannejad: Uh, no, that was just for DCD1. Oh yeah. So finished PhD in [00:01:50] Manchester. Uh, did DC.

Payman Langroudi: Studied in Sheffield.

Sina Gilannejad: No. Studied in Bristol. Bristol. [00:01:55] Yeah. Oh I knew the Sheffield lot like Adam. Well Adams. He was Leaders. I just knew through mutual [00:02:00] friends.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. And, um. And yeah, [00:02:05] I just, you know what? Moving. So for those of you that don’t know, [00:02:10] um, moved from Northern Ireland is where I was born. My parents are Iranian, so [00:02:15] I’m all over the place. Grew up in Northern Ireland, had an amazing time, amazing childhood. And then we’re. [00:02:20]

Payman Langroudi: About.

Sina Gilannejad: Uh, in Lisbon, ten minutes from Belfast.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah. I’ve been there. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: You’ve been to [00:02:25] Lisbon?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s kind of southwest.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah it is. Why would you do the Lisbon practice? [00:02:30]

Payman Langroudi: The what?

Sina Gilannejad: No way. Yeah. Lots of old people there. Yeah. It was [00:02:35] lovely place. Like back in Northern Ireland. I was like the most at that time, the most diverse thing [00:02:40] that there actually was. But like, I wasn’t really diverse because I was still white. So it was very easy for people to digest, [00:02:45] you know? So I had a lovely time growing up, played lots of rugby. It was my big thing. [00:02:50]

Payman Langroudi: Good people.

Sina Gilannejad: Good people, man. Yeah, really nice people. The kind of place where you go walk your [00:02:55] dog and you’ll be in half an hour conversations for a while. You just have to talk. It’s expected. [00:03:00] Yeah. And, um, and then I got to, I finished my A level and I was always [00:03:05] a home bird. I was always going to just stay where I was. Um, and [00:03:10] then I finished my A levels and I kind of just looked around and it’s such a small place. So you just see [00:03:15] everyone everywhere. And I just looked around and I was like, you know what? Not too many of you are actually [00:03:20] like good friends. Like you’ve done some sly stuff, things like that. I [00:03:25] think, I think I might just spread my wings a bit. So I just applied anywhere and everywhere [00:03:30] in the UK and Bristol took me, um, they gave me an interview, went, did an interview, [00:03:35] passed and then I just had to get the grades, slipped up the grades. I got two days in a B because I took physics, [00:03:40] which I loved. I loved physics, that’s why I did it. But it was hard. And then, uh, took a year out, worked [00:03:45] at my dad’s pizza shop that whole year, which was one of the most transformational [00:03:50] things of my life, like, especially in terms of communication [00:03:55] and dealing with the public. It. It’s taught me everything I know [00:04:00] about how to deal with patient interactions. And I find, you [00:04:05] know, and I think that’s probably like one of my main strong suits, if not only is [00:04:10] how I speak and treat people and, um, and I think it’s just because, [00:04:15] you know, you can, you can mess up someone’s tooth, but if you mess up their food, it’s game over.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:04:20] was that the first time you’d worked in your dad’s place?

Sina Gilannejad: I, I was in and out like a while, but was the first time [00:04:25] I properly like every every weekday, some weekends and stuff was working there and he did [00:04:30] gruelling shifts man. You know, he’s, he’s the he’s the the working class. He [00:04:35] came he moved over from Iran 40 years ago just before the revolution. And [00:04:40] and he just got to work. He was working in London first, um, did black cabs. So he like remembered all [00:04:45] the streets and everything. And then he was in KFC for a bit, became manager there and then I [00:04:50] think he moved to um Northern Ireland for cheaper education at Queen’s. He [00:04:55] did textiles or something and then he opened his his pizza shop and it was just his baby, [00:05:00] you know. And and it’s still to this day, um running. I think it’s just had its [00:05:05] 30th, if not more. It’s not even 30. I think it might be like coming up to 40th anniversary [00:05:10] as well. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is it one of those late night places you get.

Sina Gilannejad: No, not even it used to be. So when I was working there, unfortunately, [00:05:15] it was like from 4 to 1 a.m. it was hell. And working [00:05:20] that long is hard enough. But working with a family member, especially when you’re like an angsty teen like I was, [00:05:25] oh my goodness, it’s a wonder we’re still in touch.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what my dad, my dad studied in Queens [00:05:30] as well. No way. In Belfast in the 50s. In the 50s, economics?

Sina Gilannejad: No [00:05:35] way.

Payman Langroudi: And I’ve got loads of friends who are half Iranian, half Irish. [00:05:40] Yeah, because of all his pals. Yeah.

Speaker 4: There’s a, there was a like.

Sina Gilannejad: You knew everyone [00:05:45] in that time. You knew everybody. That was because the Iranian community was really so small at the time. [00:05:50] Yeah. Um, you y’all just saw each other everywhere and.

Payman Langroudi: Become a really good town now as well.

Sina Gilannejad: Belfast is [00:05:55] good. You know what’s even better? I don’t know if you’ve been to Bangor. Bangor. It was a small seaside [00:06:00] town and that they’ve innovated it so much that they’ve give it a city status as well. So [00:06:05] yeah, so it’s nice. It’s just a really simple place to go. And, [00:06:10] and that’s nice. Especially like if you’ve like, you know, been in mainland, we call here in mainland, [00:06:15] um, or London for so long. It’s a nice place to just, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But good restaurants and [00:06:20] things now food.

Sina Gilannejad: Is good. Yeah. Seafood obviously is amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Nice to see.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s, it’s, [00:06:25] it’s, I always say it’s, this is in the past. It used to be always at least like ten, [00:06:30] 15 years behind everywhere else, like, um, with legislation like [00:06:35] gay marriage, he got legalised here and then like ten years after it took at least for [00:06:40] Northern Ireland to do it. So it was always lagging behind. But now I think it’s [00:06:45] improved itself so much that the younger Your generation, who [00:06:50] the young professionals would stop moving out so much and actually stay in the city. And, [00:06:55] and it’s booming, you know, like we actually finally have fried chicken there now. Yeah, it took a while.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve [00:07:00] had some good food there. And also we did the event. We did our composite course there quite a lot. [00:07:05]

Sina Gilannejad: Nice.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know, man. Like it’s one of those places where good news travels fast and bad news probably as well.

Speaker 4: Yeah, [00:07:10] yeah yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: So we had a lot of word of mouth. And so we did it there 4 or 5 times massively. [00:07:15]

Sina Gilannejad: And like, you know, you’re talking about the education side of things, especially my last two years in hospital, [00:07:20] I spent, you know, I got I was so fortunate to work with hundreds of consultants and so [00:07:25] many of them did a residency in Northern Ireland. Really? Because the troubles back then, you had so much trauma [00:07:30] to. Yeah, you had so much experience. And funnily enough, the sort of tail [00:07:35] end of that was, you know, whenever I was deciding, am I going to do dentistry and medicine because I liked I like the sciences. [00:07:40] I like talking to people. So it was, it was always going to, and I didn’t want to sit behind a desk the whole time. So it was always [00:07:45] going to be between dentistry and medicine. And I did a work experience at the hospital for [00:07:50] medicine and it put me off. But I saw first of all, like at that time, [00:07:55] because I didn’t have the skills to help anyone, I felt very hopeless and, you [00:08:00] know, melancholy and sad at the hospital, it was just grim. And then I was in A and E and like, [00:08:05] some poor guy got kneecapped as they did back in the day. There he was just crawling across the floor. I was like, yeah, no, [00:08:10] I think I think dance should be better. Yeah. Um, but it’s crazy that, you [00:08:15] know, in the career that I’ve had so far, I actually kind of went full circle and [00:08:20] ended up doing a lot of work in hospital. So nice place to come from, man. But yeah, [00:08:25] I got, I got bored and I saw everyone. I was like, ah, let’s, let’s meet some new faces. And then Bristol accepted [00:08:30] me.

Payman Langroudi: What a great town. Bristol is amazing. I love that town.

Sina Gilannejad: Fantastic. I, [00:08:35] I had the best five years. Full [00:08:40] stop.

Payman Langroudi: Full stop.

Sina Gilannejad: Full stop. That’s it, that’s it. Put on the t shirt. It was. The people were [00:08:45] so lovely. It was a perfect mix because, you know, I was like, I’ve been to most student cities now. [00:08:50] Like Liverpool was way too studenty for me and still lovely, great fun as [00:08:55] well. But Bristol had a lovely mix of student family life. So much to do, so unique [00:09:00] in itself.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful.

Sina Gilannejad: Beautiful. Yeah. Unfortunately now it’s just so expensive. [00:09:05] Um, but back then it was just about affordable and the Dental school was [00:09:10] amazing.

Payman Langroudi: It knew right?

Sina Gilannejad: Not. So I was fortunate when I was Dental [00:09:15] president there, I was actually on the board who we designed the new hospital. So [00:09:20] unfortunately when we built it and opened it, I got to see around it. But by that time I was graduated. [00:09:25] So so I didn’t get to study in it. But I know the facilities it they’re insane. [00:09:30]

Payman Langroudi: So you were the president?

Sina Gilannejad: I was the president. It would have been just after Covid. Okay. [00:09:35] 21 and, um, that was another really, really good year of my life. [00:09:40] And it was if I hadn’t done that, I would have never met my wife as well. So it’s really good.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re that [00:09:45] cat, the one who says, I want to be the president?

Sina Gilannejad: Um, I [00:09:50] kind of like it.

Payman Langroudi: I wish I was there.

Sina Gilannejad: I think, I think I [00:09:55] think early on it was always that kind of thing. And I was so close [00:10:00] to not doing it in the end. So early on, I did always want to be the Dental president because [00:10:05] I obviously, like you’re younger, you see, like the prestige that comes with it and everything. But it’s like the, the idea [00:10:10] that you can actually make some not to be cringey, but to make some real change. Yeah. And [00:10:15] like I said, like everybody wants to feel unique in a, in a certain way. And, [00:10:20] and I, from that experience I had with working at my dad’s, I really did feel [00:10:25] and was told that my, my unique selling point was just being able to [00:10:30] talk to people as a human, like getting, getting that patient interaction perfect, [00:10:35] like dealing with an angry, patient, sad, patient, happy, patient, um, you know, anxious patient. [00:10:40] That was my selling point. And, and that came through to to my interactions [00:10:45] with my friends as well. When I was younger, I was always called like the agony [00:10:50] uncle, like the person everyone would come to, and I was seeking it. I was seeking to help people’s problems and looking [00:10:55] back over it and doing like a lot of like, you know, reminiscing and analysing. It was definitely [00:11:00] from a place of trying to busy myself with so many other people’s problem that I wouldn’t deal [00:11:05] with my own. Interesting. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What? How interesting.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. Yeah. It [00:11:10] took me a while to figure that out. And then once I figured that out, I tried to stop doing that as much. But [00:11:15] from from a place like that was was why I wanted to do presidency. And I was so close to not doing it [00:11:20] before the pandemic. I just felt like, you know what? There’s so many lovely [00:11:25] people around me that would be so much better. They’re way more organised than me. They’re way more proactive and [00:11:30] stuff academic. They would do better. So I wasn’t going to put my name for it. And [00:11:35] then the pandemic hit. So I was in fourth year. No, I was in third year. Fourth year [00:11:40] is whenever in Bristol you can apply for presidency. And [00:11:45] I said when the pandemic hit, a lot of people pulled out [00:11:50] because it was obviously such a tough time and we all realised what was important and and [00:11:55] just wanted to sort of get back in and get back to normality and didn’t want that extra weight on. [00:12:00] And at that point, I was kind of like, everyone’s losing their minds, everyone’s freaking out. I [00:12:05] feel like maybe this is something I can get involved in now. Like I felt like in [00:12:10] an emergency situation in my head, I wasn’t so worried about messing up anymore because [00:12:15] I was like, anything is better than this.

Sina Gilannejad: You just need to calm people down almost. And so I did it and [00:12:20] I had such a great year. We did so much. Um, you [00:12:25] know, just the, the new Dental school alone took up so much of my time. And, and if [00:12:30] that was all I did, it was great. But we did so much at that time, like it was during like BLM, we did [00:12:35] decolonise the curriculum per se. And um, what They colonise [00:12:40] the curriculum. I can’t even say curriculum. Yeah. So it was in [00:12:45] essence exactly what it says. So the a lot of the oh, well, oh, a good example [00:12:50] is it’s much it was actually when we did, we looked into our research, we found [00:12:55] out that the problem was more with the medics than the dentists. And it’s basically that a lot of [00:13:00] the research and evidence based practice that we have is on the typical white [00:13:05] 70 kg male and didn’t account for people of [00:13:10] different backgrounds, different skin colours and how conditions would look look like [00:13:15] as well. So a big part of decolonising the medical curriculum was a, I can’t remember the name of it, but a lovely [00:13:20] book, um, uh, that was released of skin conditions in people of [00:13:25] different skin Pigmentations.

Sina Gilannejad: Um, and that was in essence, you know, that inspired [00:13:30] us to do the same with dentistry. So one of the big ones was, um, that you always [00:13:35] hear floating around, but no evidence was really given Was teeth being harder to extract [00:13:40] in African Americans. And because of the density of the bone. Now I’ve [00:13:45] still been looking around. There’s no good studies that have been done anecdotally. I think a lot of us, especially me, having [00:13:50] spent so much time in oral surgery, anecdotally, a lot of us probably agree with that. But because there wasn’t [00:13:55] anecdotal, sorry, because there wasn’t an actual good evidence about that, we had [00:14:00] to sort of refine, like how we deliver that to patients [00:14:05] to, to students, to students. And then another big thing was oral medicine as well. Um, you’ve [00:14:10] got lichen planus. Um, you can get it obviously on skin as well. You’ve got other conditions, like blistering [00:14:15] conditions that can also get it on skin as well. We had to, we went through all [00:14:20] of our oral medical stuff and actually thankfully, um, and really reassuringly, we were actually [00:14:25] quite good. We, we were on board, we did show them in different populations [00:14:30] and different cultures and different.

Payman Langroudi: But that sounds like there’s a, there’s a sort of political, ideological. [00:14:35] Yeah. But sort of angle on it. So explain it.

Sina Gilannejad: 100%. Explain what [00:14:40] the decolonisation part.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: So it’s again, it’s just making sure it was making sure that the curriculum [00:14:45] wasn’t just based around the white male that we trained our students to [00:14:50] a point where they, because.

Payman Langroudi: Because our patients are diverse, are so diverse.

Sina Gilannejad: And in London, it’s a [00:14:55] really easy way to see that, isn’t it? Yeah. You live, you work in one borough, you’ll have a completely different [00:15:00] demographic. You know, you live in one borough. You’re treating, um, mainly Caribbean [00:15:05] patients. You’re living one. It’s it’s all, um, Bengali patients. [00:15:10] You have one Sudanese, you’re the ones all white. So, um, it was to gear [00:15:15] them up for that.

Payman Langroudi: It could be, it could be seen as purely a, you know, Dental medical thing, right? That, you [00:15:20] know, we’re not we’re not covering this cohort of patients. But was there like a timing issue around BLM [00:15:25] that made this definitely become a thing?

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, this was the thing. It was very, uh, [00:15:30] a big part of what I was worried about is coming off performative. [00:15:35] And that was a massive thing I was worried about, especially with like, how.

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t want to virtue [00:15:40] signal. Yeah, exactly what you mean by performance.

Sina Gilannejad: I think we’re on the same page. You know, like [00:15:45] a lot of the companies and stuff were advertising [00:15:50] it, but not actually doing anything to action. Exactly. So like that.

Payman Langroudi: So like greenwashing.

Sina Gilannejad: Exactly. [00:15:55] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That’s what I was really worried about. But then at the same time, part [00:16:00] of the movement is educating yourself. Yeah. So that’s, that’s how we did. And, and, um, another big [00:16:05] thing was being in the community. So the equality, diversity and inclusion, um, which [00:16:10] turned out there was no one of much diversity in [00:16:15] that not and, and again, it’s finding out why was that the case? It’s just because no one knew about it [00:16:20] and no one actually. Then when they knew about it, no one bothered to join. So that was a really difficult part. It’s [00:16:25] like, it’s really hard for me to vouch for you from for your background. I [00:16:30] can get your opinions and stuff, but you know, sometimes you need someone that’s there to [00:16:35] actually vote for themselves as well. But that’s not easy and not everyone’s built for that. So it was a really interesting [00:16:40] time.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve ever been politically active, like outside of this little piece.

Sina Gilannejad: No. [00:16:45] And I’ll tell you why I was so scared of politics growing up in Northern Ireland. [00:16:50] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s on being an Iranian as well.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. Oh yeah. That’s a really. Yeah, absolutely. [00:16:55] Exactly. There was two like it was almost two kind of Canadian ways of thinking [00:17:00] about it. Like very much I didn’t want to upset anyone. I didn’t want to get anything wrong. So [00:17:05] I just dug my head in the sand. And, and that definitely wasn’t the right way to do it. [00:17:10] It’s just I, I was almost scared of having an opinion or [00:17:15] thought that me being so okay with everybody’s opinion was [00:17:20] my opinion. But I’ve changed a lot since then. I’ve tried, I’ve backlogging [00:17:25] always trying to educate myself a lot more and like the history of North [00:17:30] America.

Payman Langroudi: It was a funny time back then because we were. The number one issue that everyone was [00:17:35] worried about was not offending. Yeah. People.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And if you, you know, it’s really difficult [00:17:40] to to sort of talk. Mhm. And only [00:17:45] talk in a way that offends no one. Yeah. You end up only being quite [00:17:50] vanilla.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. And you can have such.

Payman Langroudi: A if that’s your primary concern. I mean, of course I don’t want [00:17:55] to offend anyone, but if it’s my primary concern and there was a level of fear involved in it, like a [00:18:00] fear of getting cancelled, fear of saying the wrong thing and all that.

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, cancel culture was huge.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:18:05] Huge. And, you know, whatever you want to say about Trump. And there’s a lot you can say about Trump. Yeah. The [00:18:10] fact that that pendulum got swung a little bit back. I mean, the trumpet song many, [00:18:15] many kilometres. But but but it had gone too far. It had gone too [00:18:20] far.

Sina Gilannejad: It went in a you almost and like you said, with [00:18:25] that idea of trying not to offend anyone, you do so much talking and end up not actually having said any points. And [00:18:30] that’s hard. And I think and I think unfortunately, that’s just the way society [00:18:35] had brought us up. And I think we should be and hopefully are coming to a place where we can [00:18:40] have our own beliefs and they can be strong beliefs. But we’ve lost so much of that [00:18:45] respect that’s in between. It’s it’s, it’s, it’s so hard to [00:18:50] have a communication. Like, let’s just break it down into left and right. You can’t talk to each other because [00:18:55] you just end up fighting against me or you, or you automatically assume that they’re wrong. Because I, [00:19:00] I’d like to think we could probably all agree that the right answer most of the time is quite [00:19:05] in the middle. But where we just swing on extremes the whole time.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:19:10] one thing I find quite interesting is, let’s say you’re you’re [00:19:15] naturally left wing. Mhm. I find it quite interesting listening to [00:19:20] right wing stuff. Mhm. If I’m a left winger.

Sina Gilannejad: In terms of. [00:19:25]

Payman Langroudi: Like the, the I listen to a lot of podcasts. In my case would be podcasts. And [00:19:30] it’s painful. It’s painful because it’s, you know, there’s your natural bias [00:19:35] is to listen to what you agree with. Yeah. But then that becomes a bit of an echo chamber. Yeah. [00:19:40] I’m very much interested in what the other side. If other side, if you like, inverted commas [00:19:45] are thinking and saying, yeah. And so but the weird thing about that is you [00:19:50] then do end up getting affected by that and actually moving towards that [00:19:55] direction a little bit more.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. Well, yeah, you start to see exactly.

Payman Langroudi: You see the other side of the argument. Right.

Sina Gilannejad: Exactly. [00:20:00] And you said, well, yeah, that actually that is a problem. I don’t have an answer from that, from [00:20:05] this extreme point of view here. So you’re right. It does drag you more into the middle. And that’s and that’s exactly what you need. You [00:20:10] need to be open. And you’ve just said it. The reason we don’t do it because it is really uncomfortable.

Payman Langroudi: It’s uncomfortable. I still get [00:20:15] I find it hard. It’s like a painful tooth. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s pushing it.

Sina Gilannejad: You [00:20:20] listen to a podcast like most of the time these days, we have it when we’re talking to a patient and [00:20:25] they obviously they all of a sudden say something, they get comfortable, then they say something and you’re like, I don’t agree [00:20:30] with that. But this is obviously not the place to get into a political argument with you or something like that, you know? And [00:20:35] that’s the thing, like even me, I’ve just straight away said a political argument. Yeah, I could have just had a discussion [00:20:40] and we’ve lost that a lot. And, and I to try [00:20:45] not to boil things down to one single causing factor. I do think [00:20:50] it’s probably in the political Leaders is the [00:20:55] political leaders benefit for that to be the case, to polarise people? [00:21:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. I had a friend, I tell you where I first lost my innocence around [00:21:05] politics. I mean, being an Iranian, you’re gonna you’re born with [00:21:10] that. But but I had a friend. He was, um, quite political. His dad had been [00:21:15] something in government and then he was quite political. He was at LSE. Um and he was very much [00:21:20] a right winger. Um and you know back then it was like Thatcher time Right. But [00:21:25] you didn’t. You weren’t young and right wing. This guy was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Today [00:21:30] it’s kind of changed. But back then, all young people were a bit left. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You got a mortgage and all [00:21:35] that? This guy was quite right wing, and he was standing for some president of, uh, [00:21:40] LSE Student Union or something.

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, wow. He’s. Oh, he’s probably into it. Like I.

Payman Langroudi: Said.

Sina Gilannejad: Not just opinions. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: He’s he [00:21:45] said to me, come, come. We’ve got some. What is it, hustings. Whatever it is. Yeah. He said come and just [00:21:50] support me, you know, just like clap when I say something. So sure man. You know childhood friend. [00:21:55] Yeah. A few of us went and um, they introduced him and [00:22:00] they said, yeah. And representing the Green Party, him and I was like, what? Green [00:22:05] party? Yeah. He was the most right wing person I’ve ever come across. Yeah. And I kind [00:22:10] of couldn’t understand it. And he made his speech and then he came down and I went up to him and said, dude, what [00:22:15] the hell is this Green Party stuff? And he just looked at me and he goes, you don’t really think I was going to be a conservative [00:22:20] in LSE, do you?

Sina Gilannejad: Really?

Payman Langroudi: And I was like, what? And he went. You think I’m gonna win as a conservative, [00:22:25] right? Buddy, I lost so much innocence on that day. This 18 year [00:22:30] old. Yeah, yeah. True. Yeah. And and the pursuit of power was [00:22:35] was the thing that this dude was after. Yeah. And and and I saw it in its truest form. [00:22:40] You know, like it’s.

Sina Gilannejad: Scary, man. And I mean, that’s, like you said, the loss [00:22:45] of innocence. Obviously, you kind of get your eyes get open. It’s like, what the heck? It’s almost like you [00:22:50] want to not believe it. Yeah. You hear them on the movies and stuff like that. You don’t want to not believe it. Then all of a sudden [00:22:55] you got the files coming out and all this stuff. You’re like, wow, this is what we know now. Like, what don’t we know? It’s [00:23:00] crazy.

Payman Langroudi: I used to, I used to listen to this conspiracy thing. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: I was literally thinking.

Payman Langroudi: About years ago, years [00:23:05] ago. And the guy said, yeah, there are these Satanists who like kill babies. And I [00:23:10] was like, this guy’s an idiot.

Sina Gilannejad: What’s going on? We’d all say.

Payman Langroudi: That. Well, this guy’s like mainstream. [00:23:15] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. You probably.

Sina Gilannejad: And that’s crazy to think, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: I [00:23:20] remember telling my buddies, you know that your mobile is constantly recording everything you’re saying. [00:23:25] Yeah. And my my two closest friends, they got worried about me and they [00:23:30] had like an intervention. Yeah. They were like, dude, we’re really worried about you. You’ve become paranoid. [00:23:35] And then literally six months later, the Snowden Snowden stuff came out [00:23:40] and said, yeah, everything. Everything’s being recorded. So I went back to them. We pissed off. And [00:23:45] then it’s so weird. They both completely forgotten that conversation immediately. Of [00:23:50] course, you know, it’s weird how like that, you know, they call it the Overton window.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like shifts. What’s [00:23:55] what’s acceptable to talk about?

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, massively. And you know what? Like I was actually thinking this [00:24:00] because obviously on the way here, um, I had my own podcast. [00:24:05] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I should have introduced you like that. I’m so sorry.

Sina Gilannejad: That’s all right.

Payman Langroudi: It wasn’t my most of the presenting [00:24:10] complaint, which was one of my favourite. I used to listen to that.

Sina Gilannejad: So sweet. Yeah. So me and, um, [00:24:15] Adam.

Payman Langroudi: Adam, who I had on this pod.

Sina Gilannejad: You did? And Adam, a lot of people will probably know from [00:24:20] his original thing that he had, which was, uh, the the positive [00:24:25] smiles club. Well, positive smiles club.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right.

Sina Gilannejad: That’s right. And that’s [00:24:30] how I first met Adam and became friends with him was through that. So it was such a lovely. It just [00:24:35] brought. So it was at a time where I was a student and I was just doomscrolling on Dental [00:24:40] Instagram comparing my pegs of crime preps. If. Well pegs is is [00:24:45] giving it. They didn’t have the height to be a peg. It was just a stump of, uh, crime preps and [00:24:50] just getting so beaten up by how like terrible my skills were. And, [00:24:55] um, and then I saw Adams and it was just, it’s exactly what it is. Positive [00:25:00] smiles and, uh, talked to these amazing dentists that everybody respects and [00:25:05] to hear like some real true, it’s how they feel and how they actually [00:25:10] act and realising that they’re all human. And actually the beliefs that I have are so unrealistic. So, [00:25:15] um, from that, uh, met up with Adam and Leaders. We instantly bonded, instantly [00:25:20] gelled, really good friends. And then when I was I had a really struggled [00:25:25] in my foundation year, my year, um, after dental school, because I, I’ve, I really thrived [00:25:30] in dental school, um, socially, academically, I did quite well as well. [00:25:35] And, um, just everything really went my way. I was, I was really fortunate and I didn’t [00:25:40] get the imposter syndrome or anything like that, that everybody else got during the time. [00:25:45]

Sina Gilannejad: And that’s not just sounding big headed. I just had a really good time. But all of that hit me when I went [00:25:50] into PhD. You know, there was a big break over the summer, um, and [00:25:55] then lost a few skills as well. Came into the real world in dentistry. And, and it really affected [00:26:00] me. And the thing that made it worse for me was actually, I had a fantastic, I got [00:26:05] Manchester as my DCT, my, sorry, my PhD post, which was the, the hardest to come [00:26:10] by. I think I ranked like 12th in the country for um, the sjt and things [00:26:15] that you had to do to, to rank. Um, so I did so well in that I got the top place in the country. I had [00:26:20] the best practice, the best is the best nurse, lovely [00:26:25] patient. I had everything. So to have all that and still like feel so anxious [00:26:30] of extraction, so anxious for any treatment I did that I wasn’t going to go well. Patient was going to hate me. It [00:26:35] made me feel worse. I was like, I’ve got it’s so much better than everyone else and I’m still struggling. [00:26:40]

Sina Gilannejad: So like double down. And there came a really real point. [00:26:45] I was crying so many times a week, you know, I really, really struggled. [00:26:50] I had family things that were going on at the same time as well. And when they those [00:26:55] family things, thank God, got better. I still felt really bad. And that’s when it really hit [00:27:00] me like a massive weight. I was like, oh no, the problem is, is inside. It’s with me. [00:27:05] So I started therapy and started [00:27:10] to understand myself more, started to deal with that childhood stuff that I was really saying at the start that actually [00:27:15] all this help I was doing for other people was pushing down. Or [00:27:20] just maybe I wouldn’t say, you know, I had a lovely upbringing as well. Maybe I didn’t [00:27:25] have much going on back then, but I didn’t deal with any small thing and it just [00:27:30] built up. Um, and it led to that massive confidence thing. [00:27:35] Um, and I got scared. I said, if this is going to be the rest of my life, I [00:27:40] don’t know what I’m going to do. So that’s one of the massive drivers [00:27:45] that took me to seeking DCT. I [00:27:50] just I needed a DCT.

Payman Langroudi: Move on before you move on. Yeah, give me an insight. Like in your particular [00:27:55] case, what was the problem and what was the unlock? [00:28:00] I mean, was there like a perfectionism that you were trying to achieve? And [00:28:05] that came because of when you were a child, something happened or and then what was the unlock [00:28:10] understanding that that’s where the, the, the root of it was because one thing that we do a mental health [00:28:15] podcast. Me and Rona. And one thing I realised about mental health after having [00:28:20] a few conversations, is that the same stimulus can give two people totally different responses. [00:28:25] Yeah. Um, based on the way that you take that stimulus. And so [00:28:30] it doesn’t make any sense for me to say, hey, why, why did that bother you? Because it’s just something [00:28:35] so simple. Um, or, you know, one, one person can go through war and, and [00:28:40] come out of it, okay? And the next person can have their mom say something and [00:28:45] break up over it, you know? Well, give me your reflections on that, the process [00:28:50] of finding that out. Um, was it painful? Was it the opposite of painful? It [00:28:55] cathartic.

Sina Gilannejad: It it was painful, actually. [00:29:00] Yeah. So I listened, I listened a lot to your podcast on that mental [00:29:05] health. I know like how many professionals you get in as well. It’s so nice to hear their thoughts. And I think [00:29:10] you two have such a lovely relationship to not challenge each other, but you know each other enough [00:29:15] to call out something and, and explore that. And I love that. And, um, [00:29:20] I think, I think if I’m digging back to sort of the childhood kind of stuff, [00:29:25] you, you kind of, you touched on it before, you know, like you’re [00:29:30] in this area where politics feels so taboo, a lot of different opinions feel so taboo. [00:29:35] So you just want to be a people pleaser. You want to say the right thing to be on everyone’s [00:29:40] side and, and never get cancelled, things like that. Um, and that happened for so long that it [00:29:45] just, it just became my personality and.

Payman Langroudi: And it weighed [00:29:50] on you.

Sina Gilannejad: It weighed a lot. Yeah. And in dental school, I can’t [00:29:55] say I did much different, um, in terms of sort of sticking true to myself or having [00:30:00] my own like actual beliefs rather than trying to understand. Yeah, I’ve always [00:30:05] understand everyone, but always trying to agree to their point. And so that [00:30:10] was a massive thing. Another thing just [00:30:15] digging into perfectionism was, was, and still is my biggest difficulty. I, [00:30:20] I have a problem of starting so many new hobbies [00:30:25] or starting things, not being instantly amazing at it and kicking it to the kerb. But [00:30:30] when, when you’re in dental school, you have this massive [00:30:35] goal of becoming a dentist. And that is fantastic. It’s, it’s good motivation to get you through it. [00:30:40] So those rubbish coin preps, I just, I honestly, the crown preps were [00:30:45] my worst thing. I was so bad, so bad.

Payman Langroudi: And would you laugh at now. [00:30:50] Right.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. It’s so funny. And it would ruin it would ruin me. Like I remember I was in the [00:30:55] clinical skills lab in Bristol and, um, she’s not there anymore. She’s in a different [00:31:00] profession, but the, um, nurse that was in charge, um, [00:31:05] Adele, she’s such a dear friend to me. She would always be signing you in, signing you out and everything. [00:31:10] And she was so good at people’s mental health and everything because Clinical Skills lab gets to you, gets [00:31:15] to you like having.

Payman Langroudi: This time you’re doing everything.

Sina Gilannejad: Exactly. Seeing like how long on the [00:31:20] road actually is. And there’s this one time we came back, I think it was start of third year.

Payman Langroudi: Wait, [00:31:25] clinical skills lab is the phantom head. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And we had to do [00:31:30] a full metal prep. Um, and we just got back from like summer holidays and I saw it and I looked at it, I [00:31:35] was like, I just got angry. I got filled with rage. And I said, Adele, I’m going. Where are you going? I’m going to the gym. I just need [00:31:40] to get rid of this energy. It’s like, you can’t, you can’t leave. You get in trouble. She was like, just try. I have tried. [00:31:45] And she said, no, no, no, it can’t be that bad. And I showed it to her and she just looked at it and she was like, okay, I’ll sign [00:31:50] you off. And I was like, right, no, I’ll take that as a, as a plus. Thank [00:31:55] you. And yeah, so, so, but, but you were in the environment. Everyone was trying to get better. [00:32:00] You have this goal to become a dentist. The, like the first hardest thing was actually getting into a dentist school. The [00:32:05] second thing is actually completing it. And then I got there, I practised, I did so much work [00:32:10] that made me such a good person, such a good dentist. Sorry, maybe not such a good person, such a good dentist. Um, [00:32:15] and like actually being able to do the, the, the preps and [00:32:20] everything like that. You can see the development. It’s great. That’s the nice thing about a practical job. You [00:32:25] can physically see yourself improving and that’s good motivation. And then became a dentist. [00:32:30] And then all of a sudden, one of the main drops that sort of led to the spiral [00:32:35] was I lost a massive goal. I was like.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, because you’ve become a dentist.

Sina Gilannejad: Become a dentist [00:32:40] now, like now what? And, and all I did back in my life was set massive unattainable [00:32:45] goals, like goals that I thought that I couldn’t make but I could work towards. And like I said, [00:32:50] rugby was a huge part back in my life because, you know, you’re a young kid with all this testosterone [00:32:55] and energy and you need to put it towards something. And it was rugby. And being an Iranian, I hit puberty [00:33:00] fast. So that helped a lot. And then I somehow I then got to the [00:33:05] the top team in rugby and I was like, that’s the first big goal. So then I’ll do dentistry. And then I became a dentist. [00:33:10] And then all of a sudden I was at a point in my life where I didn’t really have a [00:33:15] massive goal for myself. I’m not talking about like finding.

Payman Langroudi: No, [00:33:20] I get it.

Sina Gilannejad: You know, a relationship, finding a wife, it just a personal goal.

Payman Langroudi: I get it, and [00:33:25] I don’t think it’s talked about enough. Yeah. That that first day and first few months in [00:33:30] the PhD job. It’s hard, man. It’s hard. You’ve got no, no no one [00:33:35] around you anymore. I mean, you do write on that, on that.

Sina Gilannejad: But no one like on the same level. [00:33:40]

Payman Langroudi: As you.

Sina Gilannejad: In this exact same place, same number.

Payman Langroudi: Of days. You know, the other thing, my daughter’s just announced she wants [00:33:45] to be a dentist. 15.

Sina Gilannejad: How does that make you feel?

Payman Langroudi: Uh. Happy, happy, happy in the end. Happy [00:33:50] in the end. But but but. 15. Yeah. Yeah. Until the day when [00:33:55] you arrive and feeds. 24.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And, and, you know, [00:34:00] arguably she’s been working from 2013 to, to be top of her class or whatever, whatever it is. Yeah. [00:34:05] You talk about like ten years of struggle.

Sina Gilannejad: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Proper struggle. Yeah. We all know [00:34:10] getting into dental school now, a complete nightmare.

Sina Gilannejad: It was hard back then.

Payman Langroudi: Now it’s a complete [00:34:15] nightmare. And then surviving dental school. Complete nightmare. And then you. And [00:34:20] then you get to this point, you’re like, Now I’m a dentist. Yeah. All right. Yeah. And suddenly [00:34:25] it’s not that interesting. Yeah, exactly. It’s one of the reasons I started enlightened in the childishness of that [00:34:30] feeling. Yeah. I was like, oh, I need more impact. Yeah. Um, but, but let’s [00:34:35] move on and, and sort of talk about, you know, the perfectionism [00:34:40] being on, on the one end, you know, like every, everything you are is your [00:34:45] biggest strength and your biggest weakness. Yeah. Your perfectionism is a massive strength. Yeah. Yeah. And yet, as [00:34:50] you’ve just discussed, a massive weakness, have you now learned to be more forgiving [00:34:55] of yourself because, you know, you can perfectionism to you could mean being the best [00:35:00] crown prepper in your practice. Yeah. Or it could be being the best crown [00:35:05] prep in the whole of Dental beauty. Yeah. Or in the whole of the UK or in the whole world. I [00:35:10] mean, it just goes on and on and on. It’s impossible to be perfect. So have you found yourself, [00:35:15] like, forgiving yourself a little bit more, being kinder to yourself? I think is that the unlock or is there a different [00:35:20] unlock?

Sina Gilannejad: I think I have not, I [00:35:25] only did a small stint of therapy, and I’m definitely gonna be going back [00:35:30] and making a regular thing, I think.

Payman Langroudi: But how did you find your therapist? [00:35:35]

Sina Gilannejad: Uh, so I used a practitioners health and, and that’s something I advocate [00:35:40] a lot on me and Adam’s podcast. Um, it’s a free NHS service for dental [00:35:45] and medical practitioners. Oh, really? Yeah. To use. And so you sign up, um, and [00:35:50] they, it’s about two month wait, three month wait, it was back two years ago, [00:35:55] which is not bad to get free cognitive behavioural therapy. So that’s what’s, that’s what they prescribed [00:36:00] me in a way to do an initial assessment and then see like, which way would go. And [00:36:05] the whole premise of it is that everybody knows your medic, everyone knows your dentist. Everything you know is confidential. [00:36:10] And they you don’t have to waste time explaining the stresses of your work, you know? [00:36:15] Um, so that was really nice. And the main thing for me was I was free to be honest, because I’ve just [00:36:20] started PhD. I’m living away from home. Yeah. You know, I got everything I wanted when I [00:36:25] was a kid, but by no means was there very much surplus. So that was a big thing.

Payman Langroudi: And so [00:36:30] what did you learn? What did you learn? So you the signs, the early signs of.

Sina Gilannejad: Well, I actually [00:36:35] learned what exactly was wrong with me, which is crazy because I [00:36:40] went in, I went in like a sociopath. I went in being like, they’re gonna say this. [00:36:45] I’m gonna tell them this, this, that, and they’re gonna say it’s because of this, this, this and that. I was like, [00:36:50] cocky about it. And I was like, I’m just not gonna help. I was, I’m definitely the worst patient. [00:36:55] And I went in and I thought at that [00:37:00] moment everything that was wrong with my life was my family issues, health, [00:37:05] health of my family issues, you know. Um, and [00:37:10] that once that was over, I’d be okay. That’s what I thought. [00:37:15] And the reason I actually then went to the therapist was because.

Payman Langroudi: It didn’t get better.

Sina Gilannejad: It didn’t get better. And [00:37:20] that, like you said, was that a relief? Was that a what? It was a massive crushing weight. That [00:37:25] was the moment where I was like, I remember so well [00:37:30] sitting in my room getting the call and everything was good, and [00:37:35] then just sitting and I was so happy. And then I hung up the phone and I just, I just remember just staring [00:37:40] off in the distance and just literally saying out loud shit, because it just hit me. I was [00:37:45] like, oh, this is it’s all inside. It’s me. It’s not [00:37:50] my external factors and things are going to get better once it’s done. It’s with me. And I’ve used so many things as an [00:37:55] excuse to mask that until now, like I can’t run away from it anymore. So then I got the [00:38:00] therapist, and when we talked, I talked about the family stuff the whole time. Sorry, I thought I would be talking [00:38:05] about the family stuff the whole time. And in that first session, I talked about it and [00:38:10] the whole premise of I’m going to do this, you know, I’m not going to do it justice right now. But [00:38:15] the main premise of cognitive behaviour therapy is really taking a thought that you [00:38:20] have. So me saying, I’m not a good dentist. Okay, why? Because [00:38:25] when I do a crime prep, it’s not perfect. Okay. What is perfect? Oh, [00:38:30] with this and this and much. Okay. What? Like did what you do still work? Yeah. Okay. Well, then [00:38:35] why are you upset about it? Can, you know you can get better? Yeah. And do you think that’s unrealistic? What you thought is. Yeah. So [00:38:40] it’s it’s d catastrophizing everything.

Payman Langroudi: Breaking it down.

Sina Gilannejad: Breaking it down, taking that thought, seeing [00:38:45] how unrealistic it is and how I actually don’t really care about that. And [00:38:50] then what do you do afterwards. And, and instantly that was the family stuff. So after I had, I think maybe [00:38:55] eight sessions after the first session, I didn’t talk about my family ever again. [00:39:00] I was like, at any time, like I said, that psychotic part of [00:39:05] being like, I’m gonna say this. They’re gonna say that never, ever once said anything that I thought. And [00:39:10] that blew my mind. It I, I got so much trust in that therapist. And I always say to my [00:39:15] patients, now, you know, and this is another topic we’ll get on later. But the whole like patient, [00:39:20] oh, the society outlook on dentists, how negative that is. [00:39:25] And I have a massive proponent. I am a massive believer. My a huge opinion. I have [00:39:30] working in hospital and working in practice. So being the referrer being the one you [00:39:35] refer to, the dentists are the worst people for this relationship that we have. Obviously [00:39:40] back in the day, it’s a hot topic. I should, I should have get through that. Back [00:39:45] in the day, dentistry was completely different. All right. You’ve all heard that story of [00:39:50] dentist did this without numbing, and they were on my chest and all that stuff. And we all know like the stuff that [00:39:55] patients can incorrectly perceive, but we can [00:40:00] all you have to understand that she absolutely was different back then. 100%. So people do have very [00:40:05] real trauma that comes about it and they say this, this and that. But the last dentist, and [00:40:10] then from what I’ve seen, what most dentists just shovel the shit.

Sina Gilannejad: They’ll [00:40:15] say, oh, they did this, they did that or this, this, that. There’s always excuses. There’s never [00:40:20] there. Obviously there is, but it’s hardly ever listening, understanding, first [00:40:25] of all, acknowledging to the patient like, that sounds like a lot. I’m really sorry that that’s what you [00:40:30] went through. Um, if it means anything, seeing from what your dentist did, I [00:40:35] don’t necessarily think they did anything wrong. It was just a really tough situation for you and them. [00:40:40] And unfortunately that relationship broke down. I’d like to hope that we can do something different, um, and [00:40:45] get on board with that. And that’s it. You’ve not put down another dentist, you’ve not done that. You’ve [00:40:50] not had the upsell here, upsell there, You know, I’ve had in practice so [00:40:55] much bad talk about hospital. Mhm. I, [00:41:00] I know I work in practice now. I know how busy and crazy practice is. And [00:41:05] you are the first interface a patient comes to. And when you can’t [00:41:10] solve the problem and you have to tell the patient, there’s this much weight, it’s really hard. And the patient [00:41:15] comes back like, oh, they left the root in there and blah, blah, blah, stuff like that. And then it’s so easy to talk bad about hospital. But [00:41:20] I’ve also been in hospital where they talk bad about dentists. So I’m so fortunate that I took that experience to see [00:41:25] all the sides. Um, and I think the one, the main thing that we can control is how [00:41:30] we treat each other. Patients will, you know, if a patient [00:41:35] has decided they don’t want to like you, they won’t like you.

Payman Langroudi: So true.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about [00:41:40] DCT.

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, DCT was such a journey. Best decision I’ve ever made. [00:41:45]

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Sina Gilannejad: Best decision I’ve ever made. So?

Payman Langroudi: So you’re. Is that your advice [00:41:50] for everyone.

Sina Gilannejad: My my advice, and you’ll hear this a lot in me and Adam’s podcast. Me [00:41:55] and Adam’s podcast to to generalise it. This was the premise we had was I [00:42:00] had just finished PhD, had a terrible time mentally and was in a place [00:42:05] where I felt like, like you said, the main thing you said was you just don’t have that person [00:42:10] there to talk to anymore, to rationalise, to be like, oh, I’m feeling exactly the same and this, this, that and this. And [00:42:15] that’s what I wanted to fix. I needed to hear that. So the premise was Adam had just started PhD [00:42:20] and I had just started DCT. So as we’d start, we’d both reflect on [00:42:25] week on week. Yeah. And obviously I had the advantage [00:42:30] of having done PhD. So when Adam was feeling this way, I’d tell him about my experience. And through [00:42:35] that we shared it with everyone else. And that was the main feedback that we got. So many people said, [00:42:40] I just really needed to hear this. Like, it was so nice to hear that I’m not the only one. And this advice that [00:42:45] you sort of said to try and get ahead was so good, because I’m a keen dentist, [00:42:50] but I’m not sitting at night scrolling through all these articles [00:42:55] and things like that and listening to all these Dental like, like, you know, the meaty [00:43:00] like, like an amazing podcast like this or Protrusive dental podcast where they’re actually [00:43:05] giving you amazing advice. I just can’t like, I just, I was like, I don’t want to think about dentistry anymore, which is why I [00:43:10] listened to a lot of the mental health one that you have. Um, and Adam is much more keen, but he’s very [00:43:15] realistic. So we went through that and my DCT one. So after [00:43:20] PhD.

Payman Langroudi: Just explain to see one and two, like what happens? Do you zoom in on a particular [00:43:25] area?

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. So to, to summarise it, if you want to do [00:43:30] Dental core training, which is usually ends you up in a hospital or the community dental practice setting, it’s [00:43:35] the only requirement it is, is if you ever want to specialise through a hospital pathway, [00:43:40] you need to have done DCT one and two.

Payman Langroudi: There’s like, like house jobs in our day, [00:43:45] right?

Sina Gilannejad: It’s exactly that. It’s replaced what used to be a senior house officer. Okay, it’s exactly that. Okay. [00:43:50]

Payman Langroudi: Um, so what subject were you?

Sina Gilannejad: So I, when I finished PhD, I [00:43:55] was lost. So I said, I want to get better at extractions and see what everything else I can do. And [00:44:00] I want to teach. So you the way it is, you’ve got a massive list [00:44:05] of all the posts in the country that offer txnrd1, and each one of them will say, this is DC [00:44:10] one in restorative, this is DC one in Max, this is DC one in oral medicine, every single [00:44:15] speciality or a combination. And that’s what Cardiff was. I had six months, uh, oral [00:44:20] surgery and oral medicine. And then the next six months [00:44:25] was um, was more oral surgery. It was restorative. [00:44:30] It was mainly it was just restorative. But I still did like the emergency clinics and all. Yeah. There [00:44:35] wasn’t, I was lucky there was no uncle and I didn’t do maxfax. That was the main thing. I didn’t do. Maxfax. It was it was [00:44:40] the one thing I missed out. And I had a blast. First of all, taking [00:44:45] the foot off the pedal from practice because hospital. One of the main things [00:44:50] is it is definitely a slower pace. It is much nicer.

Payman Langroudi: Slower, more social.

Sina Gilannejad: Way more social, which [00:44:55] I thrived off. I love it, I love sticking my head in here and having a gander and talking to this and then like treating one patient, [00:45:00] go into the next room treating another patient. Loved it, loved it, really thrived in that aspect. And you know, the [00:45:05] people pleaser in me had a great time. Yeah. And, um, and I learned so [00:45:10] much, like once you finished dental school, all those stupid lectures that you just had to learn all of [00:45:15] a sudden then you do a year in practice, you start to see actually what is important. You start [00:45:20] to filter out things and then actually you become more interested. I hated oral medicine in dental [00:45:25] school because I just was so bad at remembering things, and there were so many small details to, to [00:45:30] learn. And then I went into Cardiff and I had the best time.

Payman Langroudi: Mike Lewis, did [00:45:35] you have him?

Sina Gilannejad: I had my first of all, I had his book and the first day I was working there.

Payman Langroudi: Mike Lewis was one of the best teachers. [00:45:40]

Sina Gilannejad: He.

Payman Langroudi: Full stop. Not just teachers of oral medicine. Unbelievable. [00:45:45] Teacher. I know he was. He was Dean and all that, but.

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, he was he was.

Payman Langroudi: Everything. But when I was there, he just come. He’d just come [00:45:50] from Bristol, I think, or Glasgow. He, he was, he, he was [00:45:55] such a brilliant teacher. Every single person in my year and in our cohort [00:46:00] the, the years around. Yeah. All of us or medicine was our favourite subject [00:46:05] because of Mike Lewis.

Sina Gilannejad: And it shapes you. It does.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant teacher.

Sina Gilannejad: Absolutely. And they always say like, if you ever end [00:46:10] up specialising, someone asks you who taught you because they just inspired you. So true. That’s it. Because [00:46:15] all aspects of dentistry, it’s pretty fun. And if you actually get inspired to [00:46:20] learn about it, it’s great. So Mike Lewis, the first one I met when I went to Cardiff, um, and then, [00:46:25] uh, Phil Atkin I met as well. I think he would have been there at that time as well. And [00:46:30] I fell in love. Mike Lewis something that he above his teaching, above everything is the charisma [00:46:35] that man has. Oh my God. Yeah. He can speak. Oh you know what. Thank God he’s on our side. [00:46:40] If he was like a Nazi or something.

Speaker 5: And it’d be over.

Sina Gilannejad: It’d be over. He’d probably turn the whole country. That’s how [00:46:45] much charisma he has. Yeah, yeah. Um, so, uh, so yeah, I, I had a, the [00:46:50] oral medicine, the subject I hated the most. All of a sudden I was researching and [00:46:55] I was looking and I was really into it and I loved it. I started to understand it so much more. Oral [00:47:00] surgery, oral surgery is funny. I didn’t get any [00:47:05] surgical experience that I wanted. I just had a lot of simple extractions. I got [00:47:10] some like surgical here and there, no weights or anything like that. So that was a big reason for me going for.

Payman Langroudi: At least you got good traction. [00:47:15]

Sina Gilannejad: And, and you know what? And the nurses, they would throw a fit [00:47:20] if it went surgery would be like, oh, it’s gonna be so much effort. I’m doing this that so the fear of, of hearing [00:47:25] that made you make sure you luxated properly elevated properly. And I got very good at [00:47:30] simple extractions, which is definitely a good the foundation you need to then move into Surgicals. That’s [00:47:35] right. And then Restoratives as well. I, I got to see everything you could do, you [00:47:40] know, the obviously just the secondary pathway in itself was amazing. And [00:47:45] then something I really fell in love with in restorative was getting to treat the oncology patients. [00:47:50] These people that had radical head and neck therapy like.

Payman Langroudi: Radiotherapy. [00:47:55]

Sina Gilannejad: Obturators, these crazy things, you know, half their face cut off and somehow these prosthesis [00:48:00] put back in and Cardiff, uh, one of the most advanced, if not the most advanced [00:48:05] um lab in the country. They have 3D printers out the wazoo, scanners out [00:48:10] the wazoo. They’re doing charity work for dogs that have had half their face shot off. [00:48:15] And really in Puerto Rico somewhere it was, I can’t remember. And they’ve got like a skeleton [00:48:20] mesh framework of that. And they send it off. They do so much. It’s a fantastic. They’re they’re also [00:48:25] now working with the general surgeons and the surgeons to make custom prosthesis, 3D printing. [00:48:30] Fantastic. That was amazing to work for. And yeah, so I got so much confidence [00:48:35] through that. And I always. And from that experience, I kept telling Adam on the podcast. Look, when [00:48:40] it comes when you just start PhD, you have to apply for DCT. So soon [00:48:45] you won’t know if you actually want to do it or not, but just apply for it. It’s free, apply for it. And if you don’t want to do it, don’t [00:48:50] do the stuff. That’s fine. At least your name’s there.

Sina Gilannejad: If you want to specialise, great. But [00:48:55] most of the time going into hospital makes you not want to specialise. And that’ll be the consultants [00:49:00] that tell you themselves because they say, look, what do you want to do? I want to be really good at restorative. It’s okay. Learn here, go [00:49:05] do it privately or become a staff grade here. You don’t have to specialise so much time, so much money [00:49:10] is what you want to do. You don’t actually need to specialise for oh, okay. So you [00:49:15] start to learn what you can do. And that’s a massive thing for oral surgery as well. So the advice would [00:49:20] be if you’re dead set, then yeah, you do DCT because you need specialise. If not, do it because [00:49:25] you learn so much about the career. At least you know where you’re sending your patients. You know, the state that the NHS [00:49:30] is in right now as well. And I it would never go down, [00:49:35] but I really and I was told this as well. I I really believe my dk2 was in Max Fox, and I think there [00:49:40] should be at least a six month rotation in Max Fox.

Payman Langroudi: Mandatory.

Sina Gilannejad: Mandatory. [00:49:45] It makes you an amazing. It. I was at the end. I was like, I don’t [00:49:50] have surgical experience. I want to do another DCT because I’ve got the freedom to move around. [00:49:55] I want to do it somewhere good. And because I think I’ll never go near Max Fox again, or sorry, [00:50:00] I’ll never go near Max Fox if I don’t do it now. I want to try Max Fox. And I was humming and eyeing and I [00:50:05] was. I was tearing myself apart, just trying to think like, is it worth it? Like I’ve heard these horror stories and everything. And then [00:50:10] one of the oral surgeons finally said to me, they looked at me and they just said, look, whatever [00:50:15] you choose, you’re going to learn clinically, you will 100% max. You’re going to learn [00:50:20] so much about yourself. And we said in the way here, you did Max Fox stint as well, and you said, it [00:50:25] makes a man out of you. It it absolutely does. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And it puts stuff into [00:50:30] context, man.

Sina Gilannejad: And that’s what I needed for a perfectionist. Yeah, that’s exactly what for someone that’s [00:50:35] scared of the worst case scenario. What’s the worst case scenario? Someone could die.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Go [00:50:40] to the max box. You’ll see the worst case scenario.

Payman Langroudi: Scare the shit out of you, mate.

Sina Gilannejad: I was so scared. So [00:50:45] I had a lovely, lovely friend. I still have a lovely friend in 2 or 3 years above [00:50:50] me. Name is Maria. And I put up my Instagram. You know, I we we got, we [00:50:55] got really good traction with the audience on Instagram since our podcast. And I put on Instagram, I was like, [00:51:00] I didn’t know where to put. I was like, oh, I should put a store on Instagram. I said, anyone know anywhere good for Max wax? Um, [00:51:05] and then she popped up and she just said, Go to Chesterfield. I was like, what the hell is Chesterfield? [00:51:10] I’ve never heard of Chesterfield, bro. Um, and um, I said, okay, why? [00:51:15] She said, you know, there’s no Night-Time, uncles, no weekend uncles, you’re [00:51:20] on call, but really supportive practice place and you’re only one of two [00:51:25] seats. So you’ll have so much.

Payman Langroudi: You’ll see a lot.

Sina Gilannejad: You’ll see a lot, do a lot and do a lot. [00:51:30] Yeah, absolutely. And then any of the major stuff, like the really, really crazy stuff that comes through and he goes to Sheffield. It’s [00:51:35] like sick.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s kind of a good point. Yeah. Because you you sometimes think if I go to a major [00:51:40] teaching centre, that’s the place to learn, but that’s the place to see. Exactly. Not [00:51:45] the place to do 100%.

Sina Gilannejad: That’s exactly it. And that was another thing that was told to me when I [00:51:50] was in Cardiff. They said, go to a district general. So District General Hospital for people that know is just a [00:51:55] smaller hospital. It’s not a city centre hospital like a London one. It’s like somewhere in like a [00:52:00] Surrey’s own hospital or something like that. And it’s a smaller hospital, which means you’ve got less patients [00:52:05] going through. And for some really maybe not great reason. Um, [00:52:10] good for you. I don’t think it would have been maybe it’s been ten years plus now, but [00:52:15] before these district journeys would be doing all the major surgeries. So if you’ve got like these 12 hour [00:52:20] head and neck surgeries, they do them. But then something called centralisation happened. And actually all the major [00:52:25] surgeries, those like the major cancer surgeries, all that they have to be done in a central hospital. [00:52:30] So again, those were sent to Sheffield, which meant that I didn’t get much experience in the cancer [00:52:35] surgeries I did because I took like some weekends off and I actually went and saw them [00:52:40] and. But I didn’t like so keen. Yeah, no, just to see it. And then I’d be like, yeah, good.

Payman Langroudi: It’s super [00:52:45] interesting. It’s super interesting. It’s, but to, to, to build on your point, I, I went to, uh, [00:52:50] I mean, it was a place for underprivileged people [00:52:55] in Iran. My, my uncle was a dentist. And, uh, in one [00:53:00] day I was, I was second year dental student in one day I took out 45 teeth. [00:53:05]

Sina Gilannejad: Amazing. Which is what I did in five years.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, [00:53:10] you know, there was a queue outside and my uncle would go outside and inject everyone in the queue so they’d [00:53:15] be fully numb by the time they literally standing in the street getting injected by him. It [00:53:20] was the government, you know, like the, the, the, the, the sort of safety net government thing, only [00:53:25] extractions. That’s what it was. But, uh, you learn right when you learn when you do. [00:53:30] Yeah. So. Okay. So you one thing, you’ve [00:53:35] got a responsibility here insomuch as a lot of people are going to come [00:53:40] to you and ask for advice. Mhm. Even in your limited career, I mean, you’re you’re [00:53:45] still a baby, right? Yeah. Mhm. But because of the podcast and all of that, people are [00:53:50] going to come and ask advice. Yeah. And there’s a responsibility in giving that advice. And one [00:53:55] thing I would always tell anyone who’s asking for advice is to bear in mind [00:54:00] the bias of the person you’re asking.

Sina Gilannejad: Massively.

Payman Langroudi: It’s kind of makes sense anyway, [00:54:05] right? If I ask you what I should do, you tell me what you did. Yeah. And you give me that. [00:54:10] It makes sense because that’s all you know. Yeah. Yeah. But as the person giving the advice, you do [00:54:15] need to sort of bear that in mind. Like, like discount for that bias. [00:54:20]

Sina Gilannejad: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Because, you know, one guy might have fitted to do what you [00:54:25] did. Mhm. But then like, for instance, your wife Mantsebo shouldn’t do any of [00:54:30] this, right? She went to.

Sina Gilannejad: She went straight into.

Payman Langroudi: Practice. Yeah. Yeah. And and the benefit that she got in practice [00:54:35] while you were doing this stuff might be right for someone who, who gives who’s coming [00:54:40] for advice 100%. But that whole advice bias thing, because, [00:54:45] you know, bear in mind from my from my position, yeah, I get lots and lots and lots and lots and lots [00:54:50] of people asking me for advice. What should I do next? I’m not going to tell all of them to start, you know, like [00:54:55] Dental supply companies. Yeah, yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course. But if I, if I just [00:55:00] told them what I did. Yeah. Which a lot of people do, you know, then everyone gets the same advice [00:55:05] from you.

Sina Gilannejad: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s an important responsibility of someone in your position. And you’re only [00:55:10] newly in this position.

Sina Gilannejad: Well, I graduated in what is it, [00:55:15] 24 years. 2022, bro. It was like, it’s just about to be four years since I [00:55:20] graduated. So that’s why I’m very conscious not to come on here and talk like, uh, Bill gates or someone. [00:55:25] I am a I’m still a Dental baby. But and this was what the podcast was so amazing [00:55:30] for, because we talked to those other people, I talked to so many other people and I had Adam and [00:55:35] the main, the main advice most of the time, especially for the young ones, is hospital [00:55:40] versus general practice. Yeah, I’ve done both now and even when I was in hospital because [00:55:45] I saw it. So most people want to do restorative. And I asked him, what do you want to do? Restorative? Okay. [00:55:50] Do you want to treat head and neck cancer patients? No. You’ll do more cases in practice. How [00:55:55] do you get good at something? Repetition. I get to take out tons of teeth [00:56:00] in hospital because that’s all we do. That’s repetition. That’s. I needed to go to that hospital. [00:56:05] Maxfax you can’t do in a practice, so have to go to hospital.

Sina Gilannejad: But if you want to get good at restorative, [00:56:10] then do restorative, stay in a general practice, do the work. If you can afford the courses, do the courses [00:56:15] and you’ll get there. You and you will get there much faster. To become a restorative [00:56:20] consultant. You’re the main things you’re getting is much more responsibility. You have to [00:56:25] oversee all the staff grades and everyone that’s. And everyone getting referred from the country to that, to that [00:56:30] to your place. Yes. You get to try some crazy innovative stuff and you’ve got the protection of the hospital behind [00:56:35] you. But if you want to do smile makeovers, you [00:56:40] go to a hospital for get good at the basics in general practice. Get good at [00:56:45] making getting people out of pain. Get good at taking teeth out. Um, so that when things go [00:56:50] wrong, you can just take it out at least. Um, and then invest in these courses. There’s [00:56:55] so many courses. The hardest, the hardest thing would be to choose which course to go on. Um, and for [00:57:00] that one, you just have to talk to people or specialise.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Sina Gilannejad: Or specialised. But Payman [00:57:05] what a lot of the awakening moment for me was, um, [00:57:10] I had a, I only had him for one teaching session and he said to me, my biggest regret [00:57:15] in becoming a specialist was um, rushing to become a specialist. He said, I [00:57:20] did the straight pathway. I did dental school training year then into the speciality pathway. [00:57:25] Oh, sorry. One two. Into the speciality pathway. He didn’t take a break in between. He said I regretted that so much. [00:57:30] I could have specialised at any time I wanted. Yes, I was fresher, yes. I wouldn’t have had a family and stuff like that. But I’ve had [00:57:35] my family and everything.

Payman Langroudi: Where’s the regret?

Sina Gilannejad: The regret was doing it too much, he said. Too quick because he could have [00:57:40] been in practice for a while, learned that stuff, get good at the basics and then do it or take [00:57:45] things chill. Like he’s got all this responsibility. You take time off. A half a dozen [00:57:50] people just died for some reason.

Payman Langroudi: The thing about specialising is expensive. Yeah, massively. That’s it. [00:57:55]

Sina Gilannejad: Massively.

Payman Langroudi: That’s really it. It’s hard. Expensive. Anyone can do it. I know people, I know people who [00:58:00] knew nothing and no one. If you like that phrase. Yeah, [00:58:05] specialised and you everything and everyone. Absolutely.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: They [00:58:10] went from NHS practice to full mouth rehab. Yeah. In Harley Street [00:58:15] because of a three year course. Yeah. Yeah. Nothing wrong with that. [00:58:20] Yeah. Nothing wrong with that. Um, I get your point. You don’t have to. Some of the best dentists [00:58:25] I know aren’t specialists, right? You can you can go to Spear and Kois and and a [00:58:30] bunch of other courses here and practice. Practice really important. Yeah. [00:58:35]

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. And that’s the it’s just a way of trying to take pressure off those young dentists [00:58:40] because that’s the pressure I had. You get taught in a, you [00:58:45] know, all the dental schools in the UK, you can have your opinions and which ones which. But all of them are [00:58:50] global. You know, they’re up there, they’re up there. They’re top, top ten, top 20. [00:58:55] They’re absolute institutions. So you’re going to learn from really [00:59:00] successful and really good clinicians. Obviously some of them we know are rubbish, but [00:59:05] you’re going to and you’re going to be inspired to become a specialist. So you come out thinking that’s the pathway next. That’s the next [00:59:10] big goal. And then in my head, I was like, is that the next big goal? I guess maybe, [00:59:15] maybe that will help me. And when I went into hospital, I started to see I [00:59:20] could do it. But I don’t know if that would feel what [00:59:25] this hole is at the moment. I’m still looking for that.

Payman Langroudi: So are you looking to be [00:59:30] restorative?

Sina Gilannejad: Um, I want to be perfectionist. [00:59:35] I want to be able to be good and [00:59:40] predictable with as many things as I can.

Payman Langroudi: Um, like a super generalist.

Sina Gilannejad: I [00:59:45] think.

Payman Langroudi: Like, have you considered a year course aspire crystal. [00:59:50] Yeah, I have.

Sina Gilannejad: I’m at a place unfortunately where financially I can’t [00:59:55] commit to it yet because I’ve got a lot of financial commitments that I have made or want [01:00:00] to make, and I, and I don’t want to rush into things [01:00:05] I really don’t from, from all the advice that I got from these, you know, accomplished [01:00:10] staff grades and specialists in hospital, it’s [01:00:15] made me just realise that it’s not a race. And actually I’ve realised that. And [01:00:20] and one of the biggest parts of my healing has been realising that maybe dentistry wasn’t [01:00:25] everything. It wasn’t as important to me as I [01:00:30] wanted it to be.

Payman Langroudi: What does that mean?

Sina Gilannejad: It means that I. I thought [01:00:35] it needed to be my life’s work and passion. Mhm. But then after Max factor, then realising [01:00:40] how quickly these things can go away and actually. And [01:00:45] after getting married, I was kind of like, oh, I like this a lot more than dentistry. [01:00:50] And and it’s okay. And I want to be fulfilled by the work that I do, which [01:00:55] I was in hospital and the skills that it’s given me. I, I am in general practice [01:01:00] now, but I want to be fulfilled and let it pay [01:01:05] for the life that I want to live. And [01:01:10] that’s a life that I think I’m still trying to figure out which [01:01:15] direction that is. Is that a non I love teaching. Teaching was the best and Cardiff. [01:01:20] I got so much opportunity in Chesterfield. I got to teach a lot of the Sheffield grads [01:01:25] as well, and it was so nice because I felt like I was healing myself [01:01:30] at the same time by trying to give like the advice that I wish I got back then. [01:01:35] And, and I think a lot of me wants to [01:01:40] invest more into that side of things. So I’ve not ruled out hospital. Um, but [01:01:45] it was really nice to, it is really nice to come to general [01:01:50] practice and I almost started as an PhD again. Yeah. The first three months was so [01:01:55] hard getting used to.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about that. Tell me about that to Dental beauty. You’ve got [01:02:00] a principal there.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah. So I’ve been working in Dalston and I’m working in Basildon. [01:02:05]

Payman Langroudi: On two different.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. Two different, both Dental beauties.

Payman Langroudi: Are they both the same principle or two different.

Sina Gilannejad: Two different principles as [01:02:10] well. And um enjoying it very much in both places.

Payman Langroudi: Is that a coincidence or [01:02:15] was that like.

Sina Gilannejad: It was thankfully, because, uh, my wife has been here for multiple [01:02:20] years and she was working with Dental Beauty as well. She got to know a lot of them [01:02:25] as a small circle. Yeah. And so she told me that wants to go for. Yeah. And that’s it. And they were the first [01:02:30] ones I applied for and I got them. And a massive thing that I could bring to them was my sedation experience [01:02:35] and, um, an oral surgery experience. So, um, a lot of my work [01:02:40] is general and then the majority of the, the work I do extra is the extraction. [01:02:45] So I do the wisdom teeth. I did a surgical extractions.

Payman Langroudi: Um, are you fully confident with [01:02:50] wisdom teeth?

Sina Gilannejad: Like it’s a whole different because, because like I said, I didn’t [01:02:55] do any surgical in DC one. All my surgical experience with DC two. That was one year. Yeah. Um, and [01:03:00] obviously in that year, you got to get, you know, the speed of things, getting on call, going to A&E [01:03:05] and stuff and the surgical stuff. There’s a whole other aspect of Maxfax. But I got so much experience. [01:03:10] I got taught by someone who is absolutely my best [01:03:15] friend now, um, is Andy. He’s he’s a staff grade. He’s [01:03:20] everything I think that I want to have, like, I want to farm. I want to be [01:03:25] able to like, just get in and do anything and, and, and be the one to save the day and stuff if it can’t [01:03:30] come out and, and we get on so well. And, and I was he [01:03:35] just let me be the lead surgeon. And no matter what, he’d always be there for me. And, and a massive thing about [01:03:40] learning is, yes, the, the repetition, the practice, but just knowing there’s [01:03:45] a safety net, the idea of knowing me, especially like for me anyway, I can only really [01:03:50] compare it to, well, I’ve done all aspects now, but knowing that someone’s there for you to [01:03:55] save the day for an extraction makes you actually go for it and do it properly. And, and he [01:04:00] was a massive thing for me. And having not having that safety net now is [01:04:05] so scary.

Payman Langroudi: You find that difficult.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, it’s it’s scary. And, you know, I’ve [01:04:10] had, you know, teeth Did something. I got told I’m a [01:04:15] very through my prime. What was it? Throw my toys out the pram kind of person. [01:04:20] So you know if the exception doesn’t go right for me, if I leave a retained root of an eight, you know, [01:04:25] or it’s like massive, dense bone and nothing’s moving, I have to leave it behind. I take it to heart really badly [01:04:30] and it’s still a problem. I’m getting better with it every time. But, um, that happened in practice and [01:04:35] patients fine. And she’s so lovely. Um, I was, I was almost taking it [01:04:40] more to heart. I did take away more to heart than she did. And it came to a point where I had to check myself so she wouldn’t [01:04:45] start consoling me. And after that, I definitely hit a crossroad [01:04:50] where I was like, I kind of feel like I’m either never going to be the [01:04:55] special interest oral surgeon and do these again, or I’m this is where [01:05:00] I, I buckle down, book more in and learn and show myself that I can [01:05:05] do it. And thankfully I did that. And after the next week or two, um, I did like a [01:05:10] few more wisdom teeth and I actually went as expected and it brought a lot of confidence back, but it’s still so [01:05:15] scary. It is still scary.

Payman Langroudi: Listening to you. My, my first instinct is someone [01:05:20] like you who’s comfortable with flaps and all of that. Mhm. Implants, man. [01:05:25] Learn implants. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: And a lot of people have told me that.

Payman Langroudi: And implants, man. I mean, [01:05:30] like, like super accelerated implants. Like, like make that the number one goal for the next [01:05:35] five years. Yeah. Yeah. Now, listen, you don’t have to do.

Sina Gilannejad: No, no, no.

Payman Langroudi: Go. [01:05:40] Go into endo. Yeah. Go into endo. Yeah, yeah. Like make that the number one. Yeah. For the next five years [01:05:45] or whatever. But someone like you who’s very super comfortable with blood and and oral [01:05:50] surgery, you’re already sort of.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, you’re [01:05:55] not. I got the basics. I got halfway there. Yeah. You’ve got the basics.

Sina Gilannejad: I’ve known my anatomy. Like you said. I know how [01:06:00] to stop things when they go wrong. And and all my consultants were saying the same thing. They said, you know, you’re the [01:06:05] person that should be doing implants. You know, you’ve done the max stock’s trading. If you [01:06:10] just do the chorus then that’s it.

Payman Langroudi: Like why are you all in on implants.

Sina Gilannejad: I should and you [01:06:15] know what?

Payman Langroudi: I’m stopping you.

Sina Gilannejad: I don’t know if I like implants, I just.

Payman Langroudi: What do you.

Sina Gilannejad: Mean I don’t know. I, I. [01:06:20]

Payman Langroudi: Listen, I don’t like implants and I do like, uh, what, what? [01:06:25]

Sina Gilannejad: I don’t know, that’s the thing.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what.

Sina Gilannejad: I that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Not. Listen, you like whatever you’re very [01:06:30] good at. Yeah, yeah. You don’t like implants because you don’t have implants. Yeah, but you’re nowhere [01:06:35] near like you. That that same, that same sort of, um, you know, they say do difficult [01:06:40] things and comfort zone. That same comfort zone that you jumped out of to do your oral surgery [01:06:45] is now implants and you have to like implants is such a big subject [01:06:50] here that you have to keep on doing that, keep on doing that. Five years, not really [01:06:55] very long. No, no. Yeah. But accelerate like like go all in, [01:07:00] go all in on it.

Sina Gilannejad: That makes sense. And obviously I.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever you go all in on, you’ll enjoy. Yeah, [01:07:05] yeah. And implants happen to be something that like, make a massive difference to people’s [01:07:10] lives. Yeah. Yeah. There aren’t enough implantologists in the.

Sina Gilannejad: Uk, and it’s becoming more of an expectation [01:07:15] that every dentist should or every practice at least should have someone that does implants.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:07:20]

Sina Gilannejad: So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There’s massive cash in it.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what I, what I, what I do worry [01:07:25] about for implantologists is the risks are high. Yeah. And, and someone like you who [01:07:30] suffers anxiety with risk. But you’ve been, you’ve been through that with oral surgery. Yeah. But but [01:07:35] but the risks are high. I mean, that’s.

Sina Gilannejad: What I’m worried.

Payman Langroudi: About. The next day you’ve got a big case. [01:07:40] Yeah. Tonight you can’t sleep late. Stuff like stuff like [01:07:45] that.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. But in saying that, like booking myself impacted wisdom teeth still gives [01:07:50] me the same, like maybe some of the sun. Yeah. The thrill. Now it’s a thrill rather than an anxiety. [01:07:55] And I can’t sleep the night before. And the more I do, the more I sleep, so I know I can get through it. So it [01:08:00] is definitely something I should think is the next step.

Payman Langroudi: But for someone like you, someone who’s been through the steps you’ve been [01:08:05] through. Yeah. Yeah. And do you notice what I’m saying about like, I’m not telling you to go [01:08:10] manufacture implants, which is what I did.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But for someone like you. Yeah. [01:08:15] By the way, do anything but do dive heavily, deeply [01:08:20] into 100 practices. If you want to do that and dive deeply into [01:08:25] perio, if you want to do that, but dive heavily, deeply in like there’s no excuse [01:08:30] now. Yeah. You’ve done DCT. You’ve done some general practice deciding [01:08:35] which one of these you like or not. Come on man.

Sina Gilannejad: I think that’s exactly [01:08:40] the point that I’m at. I’m. Pick one. I’m scared. I’m scared of the commitment. And and that’s. And that’s honestly [01:08:45] the truth.

Payman Langroudi: But you’re not scared of committing. You just got married. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: That’s the easiest decision [01:08:50] I’ve ever made.

Payman Langroudi: Old. Were you when you got married?

Sina Gilannejad: I was, I, uh, last year. Last year, 27. [01:08:55] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Young. Young.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. I think especially in this day and age, definitely [01:09:00] young.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t some of your friends or parents or whatever tell you, hey, bit young?

Sina Gilannejad: Well, my friends in Northern [01:09:05] Ireland, you either get pregnant at 16 or then you get married at 20. You know something? [01:09:10] So, um, it’s all about, uh, relatively, isn’t [01:09:15] it? But, um, they when when [01:09:20] you marry the person that I did, as soon as they met her, they understood.

Payman Langroudi: I love you, [01:09:25] I love you, I get it, I get it, but, but what I’m after [01:09:30] is like the I remember getting married. Yeah. I remember thinking it’s a big step. [01:09:35] It’s a big, big step.

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, yeah. Massive.

Payman Langroudi: You know, not not I don’t mean the wedding. [01:09:40] No being married.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Big step. And I was on this like delay as long as possible [01:09:45] moment in my life. But but you seem to like the opposite. Like jump in, [01:09:50] I think.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. I think I’m an all [01:09:55] or nothing person. And I think that, like you were saying, it’s a benefit and it’s a it’s a big negative as well. Um, [01:10:00] it means that right now I, I need to go all in or nothing into something. Implants make sense, but I’m like, well, [01:10:05] what if what if I can’t do this stuff anymore? But but I’m very much going towards what [01:10:10] you said for sure. And it’s been heavy on my mind. But when it comes to marrying [01:10:15] man, I don’t know if she’s gonna kill me for talking about it so much, but it was such an [01:10:20] easy decision. Like she understood me instantly as [01:10:25] a person and understood things about me that I didn’t understand about myself.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. And [01:10:30] and aside from that, the people that she’s brought into my life, her friends, [01:10:35] her family has only been even better. Uh, [01:10:40] you know, I probably would have never met you. That’s true for her. And, um, you know, [01:10:45] her, her, all her immediate friends, her closest friends are now my friends. Um, [01:10:50] and it, it was an easy decision to make, and it was very quick [01:10:55] to see that it was the right decision. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about going [01:11:00] forward.

Sina Gilannejad: Going forward, it’s a scary topic. That’s the thing I’m most scared about.

Payman Langroudi: Do [01:11:05] you want kids?

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, eventually.

Payman Langroudi: Do you want to maybe [01:11:10] open a practice? Like there’s two of you two dentists.

Sina Gilannejad: I’m scared to open a practice [01:11:15] because.

Payman Langroudi: It might make sense to dentists.

Sina Gilannejad: It makes so much sense, and. But I don’t know. Is [01:11:20] the money there? Is it as profitable as it used to be? A lot of people say it’s not.

Payman Langroudi: Not not like it [01:11:25] used to be.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. Well, nothing’s really as profitable, is it. That’s true. But if it’s profitable, fine. But my [01:11:30] biggest concern is that I really enjoy or the kind of [01:11:35] person I am. Everything that I’ve said so far, a 9 to 5 suits me really well, because at 5:00, [01:11:40] I shut off. I don’t have to worry about anything else. I’ve got patients the next day.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:11:45] the thing is, you could you could land on your feet. I mean, there are some practices where the associates [01:11:50] are just so super happy, so super happy. It’s possible. But the best way, [01:11:55] the best execution of of the long term associate is what we call the super [01:12:00] associate, right? And the super associate comes with a bunch of Instagram like [01:12:05] marketing.

Sina Gilannejad: So loads of places are looking for how many followers you have now. Yeah, that’s a requirement [01:12:10] that’s on your marketing.

Payman Langroudi: Like it’s a real thing. Because if you, if you can, if you can bring the patience [01:12:15] because you’re marketing so good. Yeah. Then you can walk into any practice.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, 100% and they’ll make room [01:12:20] for you.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely. And it makes sense for them to make room for you. And you can negotiate terms and all that. And [01:12:25] that’s one of the best lies in the whole wide world. Yeah. Of course it means learning Instagram. Yeah. And [01:12:30] you need to like with that. If you’re saying that’s the guy you want to be the long term [01:12:35] associate, you need to look at Instagram, social media as [01:12:40] a skill, just like you look at, you know, wisdom teeth as a skill.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. And that’s the biggest I’ve [01:12:45] been so busy with the max factor, with the marriage, with settling into.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve been busy. [01:12:50]

Sina Gilannejad: I’ve been busy, man. We’ve been talking about it. Well, we were coming. We were we were trying to have this discussion [01:12:55] two years ago. That’s right, that’s right. And finally made some space for it. Even though I was [01:13:00] trying the whole time and, um, I, I, I want [01:13:05] a, we all want a full life and I don’t want to be stuck in work the [01:13:10] whole time. So I want to invest in, uh, probably, like you said, narrow my clinical [01:13:15] field of practice, invest in something else that can make money whilst I’m [01:13:20] not there and, and have that form.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of thing is that?

Sina Gilannejad: I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: I have because [01:13:25] it’s the worst thing about being a dentist. Yeah. There’s many good things about being a dentist, but the worst thing [01:13:30] about being a dentist is that you kind of you can’t you can’t sort of be sit in Bali and [01:13:35] be and be a dentist.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What are you thinking about [01:13:40] that? Have you thought anything about that?

Sina Gilannejad: I’ve thought of anything and everything, and a lot of it has been like [01:13:45] social media based and the platform I loved the podcast I did with Adam. [01:13:50] I, it just, it was so hard to fit it in with everything else. And it’s still hard. I’m not [01:13:55] saying my life’s got any quieter? I’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Just wait till you have kids, man. [01:14:00] That’ll change. That’ll change the game.

Sina Gilannejad: What you think? Get even busier.

Payman Langroudi: Much busier.

Sina Gilannejad: Well, I can’t. [01:14:05] I can barely do this, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But listen, when you’ve had. Let’s say you’ve got two kids. Yeah. [01:14:10] How many friends do the two kids have? Yeah, generally. Yeah. They’re [01:14:15] in a class of 15 kids. Yeah. Yeah. Then that those 15 kids have [01:14:20] birthdays? Yeah. That’s 30 birthdays a year.

Sina Gilannejad: I don’t like [01:14:25] this math.

Payman Langroudi: 30 birthdays a year that you have to attend. Yeah. And sometimes [01:14:30] on the same weekend, Manitoba will be with one kid at a birthday. And you’ll be with a different kid at a different [01:14:35] birthday where you don’t know one. Yeah. That’s just the birthdays. That’s. That’s [01:14:40] 30 out of 52 weekends. You’re at a birthday party? Yeah. Let alone everything else. [01:14:45] It’s hard. Yeah. It’s hard. By the way, it’s amazing also.

Sina Gilannejad: And that’s what I’ve heard also. And [01:14:50] you know what, Max? Fax again. I’ll I’m sure like my [01:14:55] nurses and everyone’s so sick of me talking about it to them or to patients. But it was life [01:15:00] changing. I was so scared of doing the wrong thing.

Payman Langroudi: Just made him out of you, [01:15:05] huh? Huh? It honestly did.

Sina Gilannejad: It did. And and, you know, like people. What? [01:15:10] Like people are scared for Max for the on call, but you everyone gets used [01:15:15] to it if you don’t leave. All right? And and you end [01:15:20] up with this confidence of that. Okay. What is the worst thing that can happen in a practice? [01:15:25] Someone has a heart attack. Cpr when you work in a hospital long enough, you know, in hospital CPR rates, [01:15:30] you know, if you give someone CPR, they’re most likely going to die in a practice way more likely to die [01:15:35] on the street, probably dead. So you know that actually the worst case scenario, you’re doing the best thing you can do, like you’ve seen it. [01:15:40] So that’s nice. The other worst thing that they’ll bleed, you can stop the bleeding now. If you can’t, it’s something [01:15:45] crazy. And then the hospital again, you’ve done what you can. So and then all of a sudden. It [01:15:50] it it it puts you face to [01:15:55] face with humanity. And that’s all because there are people that have been stripped bare. They’ve [01:16:00] got cancer. You’re seeing them as a what was I like [01:16:05] a two, three year old qualified dentist. And I thought the worst [01:16:10] thing would be to tell a patient, oh, you’ve.

Sina Gilannejad: I’m sorry, but this is [01:16:15] cancer. You’ve got cancer. And the worst thing actually, by far [01:16:20] was sitting there and I cried so much last year and my [01:16:25] mum and my wife said the general concern, rightful concern, saying are you sure this is for you [01:16:30] because you’re very emotional, soft. At the end of the day, this this is going to hit you really hard. And I said, I, [01:16:35] I need, I need to to feel it. And [01:16:40] I felt it. And, and I was sitting there and the daughter [01:16:45] of this patient, the patient, she had tumour after [01:16:50] tumour, cancer after cancer in her the mouth. There was nothing left to cut. And so at one [01:16:55] point the consultant and he was a Mr.. Or is is is his name. He was [01:17:00] Northern Irish as well. Bless him. So was a, you know, piece of home. And he’s one [01:17:05] of the best men I’ve ever met and one of the best surgeons I’ll ever meet. And [01:17:10] he said to her, and he had an amazing way of communication. And my communication is talking enough until [01:17:15] I’ve said the right thing. His communication was always saying the right thing.

Payman Langroudi: On point.

Sina Gilannejad: On point, [01:17:20] and leaving the silence for the conversation to continue. And he said to this patient, he said, she [01:17:25] said, first, I don’t know if I can do any more. I don’t know if I can have [01:17:30] any more treatment. And he said, I don’t know if I can do any more treatment for you either. [01:17:35] I don’t want to cut you anymore. And then and then he went, [01:17:40] and I was there with her and her daughter and her daughter’s sobbing in tears. And she looks at [01:17:45] me like, look, I get it. Like on the way here, we already came to terms with [01:17:50] the decision. And we know like, this is it. She’s going to die. We know. [01:17:55] We don’t know when she’s going to die, but can you tell me how she’s going to die? And [01:18:00] I looked the mom was she she made her peace, [01:18:05] but the daughter hadn’t understandably. And looking [01:18:10] into her eyes and. And I said to her, I said, look, I, I, [01:18:15] I don’t know if I can describe that for you. I don’t think it’s [01:18:20] fair. And she said, I understand, just please, I need to [01:18:25] know. And sitting there and looking at her and saying, well, there’s so many different ways. If [01:18:30] you’re lucky, your, your mom will just waste away and just lights [01:18:35] go off. Or the [01:18:40] tumour will block her windpipe and she’ll suffocate or she’ll have the [01:18:45] tumour will eat away at one of the major arteries and bleed everywhere. And that [01:18:50] was I. God, I couldn’t stop crying that day. And the next day I just sat with the [01:18:55] consultant outside and we had a little four year that we had. It was a lovely sunny day in [01:19:00] Chesterfield. And, and I just, and I just, I just asked him, I was like, I just felt like I was going crazy.

Sina Gilannejad: And I said, there’s [01:19:05] this job just ever get too much for you? And he just looked at me and he was like, man, [01:19:10] I’m like, my patients die. Yeah, it’s a lot. It’s so much. But you [01:19:15] know, I’ve got to remember the ones that I can help and that I have helped. And even those that died, [01:19:20] I helped them along the way. And, uh, and at that point, I was like, that [01:19:25] kind of me being so worried about a stupid crime prep just doesn’t matter anymore. And [01:19:30] at that point, that was it. Then I got married and I said, this is all I want to focus on. I just, you know, anything [01:19:35] else can come. And I need to remind myself so many times of just thinking of that story again, has reminded [01:19:40] me all these stresses and stuff that I have about going forward and what am I going to do? And this was like, at least I, I’ve, I’ve [01:19:45] got a life. My parents worked so hard to let me [01:19:50] do dentistry. You know, they didn’t have any chances to do it. They gave me the chance. I got to do it. [01:19:55] I’m living in London, uh, in a city where so [01:20:00] many people across the world want to come and live. And I’m saying, oh, the rent is high and this [01:20:05] and that, but I’m here, I’m living, and I’m paying the rent. And and I’m so grateful. So [01:20:10] it’s nice to take a step back and just take the pressure off myself in terms of what’s to come next. [01:20:15] But that’s why I think positive or negative, [01:20:20] Max will have such a, a strong impact [01:20:25] on you for the better.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a deep cut. It’s a deep cut, deep [01:20:30] cut. But thanks for sharing that man. That must can’t have been easy to.

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, man. But you’ve [01:20:35] been there as well. You know it as well. It’s it’s these these final moments when people [01:20:40] have nothing. You realise actually what’s actually important.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:20:45] met my first night of Maxfacts. [01:20:50] The patient passed away. Jeez. They operated on that day. Jeez. And [01:20:55] it was a new consultant as well. So he, you know, he had that nightmare [01:21:00] and I, I, I didn’t it was my first night. [01:21:05] I had no idea what to do next. I was a dental student and first night [01:21:10] and I didn’t write it in the notes because I didn’t know I was a patient [01:21:15] died.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, I wouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: The next day. The next day, consultant said, right, give give me the [01:21:20] notes. And obviously he was having a hard day himself. Right. He just arrived. It was like the first operation [01:21:25] he’d done. And he goes, it’s not in the notes. The patient passed [01:21:30] away.

Sina Gilannejad: I thought you knew.

Payman Langroudi: Who was on call. I was like, sticking [01:21:35] my hand and he screamed through [01:21:40] the notes, and I can’t blame him. Right? But that was my first night. It [01:21:45] was hard, but.

Sina Gilannejad: It’s not something you would think like first.

Payman Langroudi: Like you.

Sina Gilannejad: Said. Yeah, like surely [01:21:50] you haven’t record the Fish is dead. Why do I have to say in the notes like patient is not moving when I poke them? Yeah. But [01:21:55] yeah, man, that’s the so the future is probably [01:22:00] at another crossroads.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to the darker part.

Sina Gilannejad: That wasn’t the dark part.

Payman Langroudi: The dark. [01:22:05]

Sina Gilannejad: Part.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, the dark part of this pod is around errors. Mistakes?

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What mistakes [01:22:10] have you made and what, what can we all learn from your mistakes? From black box thinking. [01:22:15] You know about black box thinking. No I don’t. Black box thing is about plane crashes. Oh, compared [01:22:20] to medical errors where planes crash, they discuss, they find out what happened [01:22:25] in the black box. Then they tell the whole pilot community what happened. So everyone learns. Whereas [01:22:30] in medical we’re trying to find who was at fault. And so for that reason, we all hide [01:22:35] our mistakes. Yeah. So we never learn from each other’s mistakes. And even though I [01:22:40] acknowledged that in the end, you learn from your own mistakes because they they they strike [01:22:45] deeper. Yeah. To buck that trend. I want you to sort of come up with errors you’ve [01:22:50] made that the rest of us can learn from. So so so I don’t want a one day I dropped something [01:22:55] and yeah, you know.

Sina Gilannejad: I, I’ll give you two things. I’ll give you a clinical one and, [01:23:00] uh.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, cool.

Sina Gilannejad: Look one. Yeah. First the outlook one. And [01:23:05] I’m sure everyone knows this, but doesn’t practice it. Do not put [01:23:10] your self worth into a tooth. It’s so unpredictable, so interesting. [01:23:15] It’s so unpredictable. And honestly, like, it sounds stupid saying it, but if you’ve done [01:23:20] a deep filling, that tooth loses vitality. Uh, so many of us and me, [01:23:25] I was like, oh, well, that is, um, that means I’m a bad dentist, which means I’m a bad person. That was [01:23:30] it. And it sounds so stupid to say that’s one thing. Do not put your self worth in this. I was [01:23:35] going to say in this job, but obviously you can be proud of who you are and as you should be. You work very hard to get [01:23:40] here. But do not put your self-worth.

Payman Langroudi: Self-worth only in this job.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, 100%. [01:23:45] Do not do that. Biggest clinical mistake. I’m [01:23:50] trying to think of which one to tell you. I’ve made many, [01:23:55] as we all have. And that’s what happens whenever you step out of the comfort zone. [01:24:00] Um, I think I would have to be, uh, [01:24:05] drilling the cheek. Oh, yeah. So, um, if you’re doing a surgical extraction [01:24:10] or just drilling weight, it’s very easy to get super focussed [01:24:15] on the tip of your drill and not remember what’s around you. And then all of a sudden you got a big buccal fat pad [01:24:20] just wrapping its way around your drill.

Payman Langroudi: Loads of bleeding.

Sina Gilannejad: Lots [01:24:25] of bleeding. If you’re lucky enough, the drill is going fast enough. It cauterises at the same moment. So you’ve done a little gingivectomy [01:24:30] of the well, you’ve got buccal mucosa. Ectomy. Yeah. Um, so that’s not good. [01:24:35] So be aware of your surroundings. For example, if you’re doing a surgical for the first [01:24:40] time, don’t do it with your lips on. You might have used your lips for donkeys, but you’re still not going [01:24:45] to see that cheek.

Payman Langroudi: That’s for this reason, your field of view.

Sina Gilannejad: Absolutely. For this reason. And another main [01:24:50] one is and again, done it. And I’ve had friends that have done it. Many people will keep doing [01:24:55] it. Uh, just be careful of the floor of the mouth because someone will swallow it comes up, wraps around [01:25:00] you. That really wraps around your bro. You can’t cauterise that one. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I like it, but not a lot. [01:25:05] What the the the error.

Sina Gilannejad: Okay, let me think what you want something worse.

Payman Langroudi: Just more, uh, [01:25:10] worse or better. I like it, but not a lot. Okay.

Sina Gilannejad: Fine. Uh, [01:25:15] in a hospital setting.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Uh, saw a patient. They had a swelling. I [01:25:20] forgot to look at the background and forgot that this was a hospital. And [01:25:25] the swelling doesn’t always just mean antibiotics. You got to do bloods, you got to check, and you got to check for signs of sepsis and things like that, [01:25:30] which I didn’t do. And then the patient came back two days later in A&E on a drip [01:25:35] or on the verge of not having sepsis, so that was really [01:25:40] bad. Overlooked a lot of signs and the learning outcome [01:25:45] there was just calm down. Remember your environment and [01:25:50] just if you have a set protocol to look at for each patient, you [01:25:55] won’t forget it. And that is a massive thing that actually in the dental community we’re taught by [01:26:00] pilots, aren’t we? Yeah. A lot more of them are coming and teaching us, uh, this, uh, root [01:26:05] cause analysis and how to set up protocols so you do not make the same mistake. And [01:26:10] one of the most common mistakes we get is what leads to sharps injuries is that you treat the [01:26:15] patient and you see the patient has a, what a, let’s say a blood marker like HIV. [01:26:20] And then all of a sudden, because you’ve seen that you start acting differently. That is the main reason why protocols exist. Protocols [01:26:25] exist so that you’re acting the same way for every patient as you would for that patient. But then you start doing [01:26:30] that for every other patient, and then all of a sudden you see a positive patient and you start acting differently. And [01:26:35] all of a sudden the needle is not where you usually left it and you didn’t know, you always left it there, but you’ve done something different [01:26:40] and then you get a sharps injury that is so common. I’ve seen that so many times. [01:26:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I like that one more. I like that one more. What comes to mind if I say, what’s your [01:26:50] favourite lecture or lecture that really stood out for you?

Sina Gilannejad: Is [01:26:55] it is it bad to say one that I did?

Payman Langroudi: I probably [01:27:00] won’t accept it, but go on. Fair enough. Go on. No, no, but go on.

Sina Gilannejad: I did a lecture in Cardiff. I did [01:27:05] two lectures. I did one for oral medicine and it was an absolute intensive lecture [01:27:10] of all the stuff, uh, in oral medicine that’s going to be on the exams.

Payman Langroudi: For [01:27:15] the students.

Sina Gilannejad: For the students. Yeah. And it was, it [01:27:20] was I’d done teaching before that, but after I did that, I left and I felt I [01:27:25] could do this for the rest of my life. I absolutely love that. The thrill of [01:27:30] just the public speaking, The. The anxiety of [01:27:35] it became the thrill of it and the, you know, the absolute attention I had of everyone [01:27:40] and being in their place. So when they asked a question, I was like, oh, let me explain it to you in a way that I [01:27:45] understood it, to see if you understood it that way and the feedback you get from that and that it thankfully went well. [01:27:50] And it was my first.

Payman Langroudi: Teachings, great teachings. Great. The problem with teaching is it’s difficult [01:27:55] to make money teaching. Yeah. It’s, you know, as a career. Um, [01:28:00] but it’s great man. Um, by the way, you can make loads of money [01:28:05] teaching if you play it right. If you, if yeah, if you’re amazing.

Sina Gilannejad: Sell of.

Payman Langroudi: Course, but it’s [01:28:10] tough. It’s not easy. It’s much easier making money doing dentistry than, than teaching teaching.

Sina Gilannejad: Then that’s [01:28:15] the thing I kept finding. There’s actually all these loopholes to find so much easier just to do dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:28:20] about what stands out to you? Like the best lecture you went to?

Sina Gilannejad: Best lecture.

Payman Langroudi: I went to one that [01:28:25] stands out to you, one that inspired you, maybe.

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, [01:28:30] inspired me was the one that inspired me to do Max. [01:28:35] Max. I was at a conference. Uh, it was a Welsh [01:28:40] hospitals, all Wales hospitals. Something was called. I can’t remember what it was. It was all the Welsh hospitals. [01:28:45] And they were showing um, a case where basically [01:28:50] it was a cancer in the base of the tongue. So if you’ve got a really bad cancer base of the tongue, you either [01:28:55] have to do a subtotal or total glossectomy, which effectively means cut out part of the tongue [01:29:00] or all of the tongue. Grim. You can, you can already think of the massive [01:29:05] impact to your life. You can’t talk, you can’t eat. You can’t swallow properly. [01:29:10] Hell, just losing your voice alone, you know, it’s like a little mermaid. Except [01:29:15] so much worse. And, um, the surgery, you’d have to get that rather than [01:29:20] going into the mouth and cutting it out, you’d actually have to go underneath, drop everything, cut [01:29:25] it out, stitch it back up. So that was extremely invasive in itself, even though you’ve taken the tongue out. Um, [01:29:30] but actually this one was the innovations that we’re having. And it was a little robot that can go to the back of the tongue [01:29:35] and laser it off, which was pretty cool, but that just kickstarted the, [01:29:40] the whole like.

Payman Langroudi: Fascination.

Sina Gilannejad: Fascination towards Max Fox that.

Payman Langroudi: And who gave that lecture? [01:29:45] Do you remember?

Sina Gilannejad: It was she was a lead [01:29:50] consultant in Scotland, maybe Glasgow, and she was a fantastic [01:29:55] speaker.

Payman Langroudi: We don’t know her name.

Sina Gilannejad: No, I don’t know her name. I’m not good with names, but [01:30:00] I remember her face. She was fantastic. Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Did you love Cardiff, by the way?

Sina Gilannejad: I loved. [01:30:05]

Payman Langroudi: It.

Sina Gilannejad: Such a good city. I’ve been so lucky, you know, being [01:30:10] in Bristol, then Manchester, then Cardiff. Bristol.

Payman Langroudi: Good places.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, Cardiff. So [01:30:15] good. The people are so lovely. Amazing, amazing. The patients are amazing. The clinicians [01:30:20] are amazing. The. I love the accent.

Payman Langroudi: I think that whole thing about the way you said in Northern Ireland, everyone [01:30:25] wants to talk to you. Yeah. Same same in Cardiff.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. You go for a walk. You’re going to have a conversation, [01:30:30] a 30 minute conversation. And it’s it’s amazing, I loved it. I made such [01:30:35] good friends in Cardiff, which was a massive, again, part of my healing process because it was so social. [01:30:40] We had, we had tons of so in, in, in Maxfax I was one of two ducts, [01:30:45] whereas in Cardiff I was one of, I think like 15 plus and we were all friends. We were all friends, had [01:30:50] a great time and you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, there’s a, there’s a size of city that, that is so fun [01:30:55] because the size of city that Cardiff or Bristol are Manchester obviously bigger, but Cardiff [01:31:00] and Bristol are. You can pretty much get everything. Yeah. It’s compressed. Let’s [01:31:05] say one day you want, I don’t know, Wagyu steak.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You can pretty much [01:31:10] find wagyu steak in Cardiff or Bristol or you are, I don’t know whatever [01:31:15] it is. Yeah. Yeah. You can find pretty much. Oh I don’t know. You want to go to a concert. [01:31:20] Oh yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: That was good Theatre.

Payman Langroudi: Stadium they’ve got there. Or you want to go to a sports thing. Yeah, [01:31:25] there is all that. But then it’s also small enough that parking [01:31:30] and traffic and all of that isn’t a big deal. But what I loved [01:31:35] about it, especially as a student, was you keep bumping into people [01:31:40] in the street.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which never happens in London. No, no. If you bump into someone, it’s like, let’s [01:31:45] have lunch or something.

Sina Gilannejad: It’s crazy because you bump into someone in London, you’re like, this world is tiny. [01:31:50] But like you said, it’s a normal occurrence in Bristol, Cardiff and things like that. And Cardiff, like you said, [01:31:55] I went to the theatre, I went to the Six Nations rugby games. Cardiff [01:32:00] has for some reason, the one of the best sushi restaurants I’ve ever been at. I love the sushi, everything. [01:32:05] It’s got everything.

Payman Langroudi: Like, uh, AP watch. Like you want to buy a [01:32:10] £100,000 watch. You can buy it.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah, it’s everywhere.

Payman Langroudi: Like it didn’t, by [01:32:15] the way, when I was there, it didn’t have that.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah. Different times. Yeah. [01:32:20] But I love Cardiff and it would definitely suck leaving there. I [01:32:25] had a really good time. Sheffield. Great place as well.

Payman Langroudi: Big student city right.

Sina Gilannejad: Massive student [01:32:30] city. Very even more students. Way more. Way more surprisingly. So it’s got like a really [01:32:35] old miners like actually like they were mining community. So [01:32:40] your whole, you know, Sheffield Steel, you hear all about stuff that obviously that’s not nationalised anymore because that would make too much [01:32:45] sense. Yeah. They sell that all abroad and, and, and then there’s no in between. [01:32:50] And then there’s students. There’s tons of them.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s a big population there as well. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: It’s massive. You [01:32:55] don’t realise it feels small.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Because the city centre is pretty small.

Payman Langroudi: Really small. We got this [01:33:00] map. It was like a map that supermarkets use to figure out where to put the next supermarket. [01:33:05] Oh, cool. Because we were putting, um, we have this thing called regional centre of Excellence [01:33:10] one per region. Ah. And we were trying to figure out what is a region. And then [01:33:15] so it’s a population density map, right. And Sheffield’s got the two places [01:33:20] that surprised the hell out of me. Sheffield and Leicester.

Sina Gilannejad: Really interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Population density. [01:33:25]

Sina Gilannejad: Interesting.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s like some I knew about Glasgow, for instance. Like it’s not Edinburgh, Glasgow, [01:33:30] Glasgow where the population is. But I kind of knew that. But I didn’t know Sheffield and Leicester had such [01:33:35] huge population density like that either.

Sina Gilannejad: But and you don’t feel it when you’re there. You’re not in like massive [01:33:40] obviously just traffic in every city. It’s not crazy in.

Payman Langroudi: The the area. [01:33:45] It’s not just exactly.

Sina Gilannejad: There’s actually a big outskirts to it. And obviously then you’ve got like the peaks [01:33:50] and everything like that. And that’s another.

Payman Langroudi: Super.

Sina Gilannejad: Beautiful, gorgeous place. Honestly, if [01:33:55] you want to be proud of where you live, you got to go there where the peaks are and everything, not where all [01:34:00] the flags are in the cities.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your favourite resource to [01:34:05] learn about dentistry? Is there a book? Is there a website? Is there a Instagram page, [01:34:10] a YouTube channel?

Sina Gilannejad: I enjoy all the series of the [01:34:15] The Good Clinicians Guide. Was it the good practitioners? They’ve got loads of those things like the Good Practitioners [01:34:20] Guide to Prosthetics, to end though. It’s got all those. They were amazing. And they’re all.

Payman Langroudi: What is that?

Sina Gilannejad: Books. [01:34:25] They’re all books. They’re all books and they’re all available. Uh, it’s not a sponsor. Um, but they’re on the BDA [01:34:30] library. A lot of people have a BDA membership, so they’re all in the library digital and it breaks things [01:34:35] so well, um, for a student dentistry in nutshell was fantastic. Um, [01:34:40] I didn’t use it, I didn’t buy it because I was so broke, even though it was a reasonable price, unbelievably [01:34:45] broke. But um, I used my friends and it was such a good resource and something I [01:34:50] really love and I’m trying to remember the name of it. It was a book that had hundreds of cases. [01:34:55] It’s like Cornell’s or something. I need to find that and [01:35:00] put it in because it’s so good. It literally each, each, every two pages is [01:35:05] a case. And it could be oral med oral surgery, uh, restorative. It was so good [01:35:10] to test yourself because when it comes to finals, the units are just going to test you to see if you’re a safe dentist, if you [01:35:15] can look at this and pick out the important things. And that was perfect for that. It would you would look at the case. It would [01:35:20] give you all the information on the pictures and then it would tell you, um, how to break it down [01:35:25] and what all the things were and then how to treatment plan it. So good. That was fantastic.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:35:30] about doing DCT? Did they pay for you to go on courses?

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, DCT [01:35:35] another reason if you want to go on DCT is the amount of free courses [01:35:40] you go on. So um, first of all in Cardiff. So it changes as you [01:35:45] go up these days you tend to do less study days in DCT one most not I think it’s like [01:35:50] 50 that you’ve got loads of study days made for you. Cardiff was phenomenal for that. [01:35:55] We had only consultants teaching us and they like it was intensive [01:36:00] days. For each week we’d have intensive day of just a full lecture on this, that and whatever.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:36:05] they made their own sort of they made their own.

Sina Gilannejad: Absolutely. They made their own curriculum. Oh, interesting. And it was fantastic. We [01:36:10] learned everything from the best people and that was great. And then you get a study budget as well, not a DCT [01:36:15] one because they put oh well in Cardiff anyway. Sorry because they put so many programs on. You only had a small [01:36:20] budget, but I got to use it to fly to. Was it. Where did it go? Glasgow, I think it was Glasgow. [01:36:25] I went for an oral medicine conference and got to do it. Loads of people went to restorative conferences, [01:36:30] oral surgery, all that. Um in DC D two, I got fully funded to do [01:36:35] my sedation training and most DC places will do that for you. Even if you [01:36:40] take up a community job, they’ll probably pay it for you. And that’s like, it’s not cheap. It’s like well over a thousand. [01:36:45]

Payman Langroudi: And a great thing to have under your belt for.

Sina Gilannejad: Massive thing. And then, and well, the thing.

Payman Langroudi: That’s got you the job in. [01:36:50] Yeah, yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, the course itself is fine. Yeah. It’s expensive [01:36:55] 2000 something. But then if you don’t have a hospital setting to, uh, or a mentor [01:37:00] to actually do the cases, you need to get qualified, that becomes quite expensive very quickly if you’ve got to pay [01:37:05] the course provider to do those cases. So yeah, you get loads out of it in that. [01:37:10] And it’s, it’s only one two year. If you did the first year, you don’t like it, don’t do it again.

Payman Langroudi: If there was if there was no [01:37:15] time or money Constraints. Firstly, what course would you jump [01:37:20] straight into?

Sina Gilannejad: Uh, I do the, uh, the London Oral surgeons [01:37:25] extraction courses. He does, uh, normal ones and uh, as [01:37:30] a normal teeth and wisdom teeth, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Is that his Instagram name? The London. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: London [01:37:35] oral surgeon in insane quality, insane. Like he take [01:37:40] the clinical photos he takes of each stage of like a surgical extraction is [01:37:45] insane. I’m like, where’s the blood? Where’s it gone? And it’s so beautiful. And I can’t even well, I can [01:37:50] now, but I struggle to take a good anterior photograph. And he’s all the way in the back of the [01:37:55] mouth there taking his beautiful photos. So I’d, I’d do that.

Payman Langroudi: I do he’s got a [01:38:00] course. Does he.

Sina Gilannejad: He does. Yes. Yeah. He has got, he’s got courses. Um I think they’re all fully booked now. [01:38:05] Um I do that do implants. If money wasn’t an issue for sure implants would be [01:38:10] done by now. Um and then I would It really [01:38:15] get into the digital side of dentistry. I really would like [01:38:20] to have, um, to, to know and learn how to use [01:38:25] the software to like model all these things to do provisionals, things like that. And then [01:38:30] the 3D printer to print whatever I want, like exocad. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: And then I’d probably make some [01:38:35] grills I sell.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s that’s good man. That’s just [01:38:40] a lot of skills you want. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Maybe money and motivation to [01:38:45] actually implement everything that I’ve learned.

Payman Langroudi: Final questions please. Fantasy [01:38:50] dinner party.

Sina Gilannejad: Fantasy dinner party.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests, three guests. [01:38:55] Dead or alive.

Sina Gilannejad: Ooh. Uh, I mean, I’m [01:39:00] always gonna. There’s always going to be a cop out, but I would, uh, my [01:39:05] granny that’s in Iran, she’d be with me.

Payman Langroudi: That [01:39:10] your mum’s mum?

Sina Gilannejad: Mum, mum, mum! My mum’s mum. I’d [01:39:15] have her with me and she’s alive, thankfully. But I just don’t know when, if ever, [01:39:20] I’m gonna see her again. Uh. Neil [01:39:25] deGrasse Tyson.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I love [01:39:30] that astronomer guy.

Sina Gilannejad: I just love the passion that he speaks about space. That’s why [01:39:35] I did physics. I love the idea of space. The idea of there was this, uh, quote that he had. [01:39:40] He was like, someone asked him, what’s the, like the scariest thing about [01:39:45] space and what’s the best thing about space? And he was like, it’s the same thing. He said, we’re all made out of the same atoms, [01:39:50] um, as the stars. We’re all made out of carbon. Um, well, [01:39:55] carbon, nitrogen, oxygen. Um, and I’m missing one as well. Um, and [01:40:00] that means we’re all so alike, but at the same time, we’re the same material as stars that are [01:40:05] billions and billions and billions of light years away. We’re so insignificant. We’re [01:40:10] just the same as that little speck that’s over there. And that was a very comforting fact [01:40:15] because I was like, ah, this is such a tiny little planet. The grand scheme [01:40:20] of things, things don’t really matter.

Payman Langroudi: You know?

Sina Gilannejad: And I needed to feel that. So that’s two. And [01:40:25] the last one, dead or alive? Oh, [01:40:30] I probably do like something crazy, like a conspiracy theory to [01:40:35] find out, like what actually happened.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: So, you know, something crazy. [01:40:40] Like, if I don’t know, is it bad to say, like Madeleine McCann? That’s [01:40:45] what I know.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, herself.

Sina Gilannejad: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: How interesting.

Sina Gilannejad: Like [01:40:50] what happened?

Payman Langroudi: How interesting.

Sina Gilannejad: I hope she’s okay. I’d like to [01:40:55] think that she’s okay. And she’s got a lot of money.

Payman Langroudi: And who knows? Yeah. How interesting. I never had [01:41:00] that before. Mm. How interesting. I went on a different podcast and I told you the guy [01:41:05] said, oh no, it was, it wasn’t you. The guy said, the guy said, um, where would you like [01:41:10] to be A fly on the wall. Oh, oh.

Sina Gilannejad: I don’t know if I want anymore. Like [01:41:15] knowing, like seeing all these Epstein files and everything’s came out. I’m scared to to fight.

Payman Langroudi: But where would you like to [01:41:20] be? A fly on the wall.

Sina Gilannejad: Like.

Payman Langroudi: I’d.

Sina Gilannejad: Do you know what I would like? [01:41:25] I probably would be crazy. And so the fly on the wall, I’d like to be basically [01:41:30] all those hot mic situations, like in the limousine where the celebrity just [01:41:35] gets out from the thing or like just at the press conference as they leave, I want I want to hear that the big crash out for [01:41:40] like the living reporter said this and that stuff that’s. I’d like to do that. Yeah. What [01:41:45] about you?

Payman Langroudi: I well, my answer on that show was when they when they gave [01:41:50] the order to kill JFK. Oh. Like who? Like I want to.

Sina Gilannejad: See this is what.

Payman Langroudi: I mean on that one. Like [01:41:55] in that same conspiracy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then I thought, um, uh, you know, when the dinosaur [01:42:00] extinction event happened. True. Fly on the fly on the tree in. [01:42:05]

Sina Gilannejad: A very safe tree that’s still alive today. That’s true. Was it? Yeah. [01:42:10] Was it?

Payman Langroudi: What the hell went down?

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What did it look like? What it looked like. You know.

Sina Gilannejad: It’d be crazy. Yeah, that’d [01:42:15] be so true. That’d be good. But I wouldn’t have a dinosaur at the dinner party because that would be messy.

Payman Langroudi: No, that’s a different question.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. [01:42:20]

Payman Langroudi: Final. Final question. Uh, it’s a deathbed question. It’s a bit unfair. Someone [01:42:25] as young as you.

Sina Gilannejad: Well, yeah, hopefully it’s not too.

Payman Langroudi: Soon, but on your deathbed, surrounded [01:42:30] by your loved ones.

Sina Gilannejad: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Many years from now. Three pieces of advice.

Sina Gilannejad: Three [01:42:35] pieces of advice. Um. Uh, [01:42:40] again, it’s going to be things we hear all the time, but we just don’t put into actions. It’s, it’s [01:42:45] definitely going to be like, not to take things so seriously or [01:42:50] be a perfectionist about everything. Um. I’d [01:42:55] say as well to, [01:43:00] and I get told this all the time is focus. Focus [01:43:05] on the action, not the outcome for and and [01:43:10] the biggest thing for that is, you know, just do what you enjoy and the money will come afterwards. That’s the main thing. And, and you’ve [01:43:15] just got to believe it until it happens. And again, just be careful with that because you, you keep thinking, [01:43:20] when’s the money coming? When’s it coming? And then you look around you and you realise all your spending has gone up and everything you know, you’ve not, you’ve [01:43:25] not sort of that person that the money that you want keeps going up. And obviously [01:43:30] that’s inflation in general. But you can you can control some of that. And the last thing that [01:43:35] I would say on my deathbed. It [01:43:40] wouldn’t be advice. I’d love to be on my deathbed. And just to say that I had [01:43:45] a fantastic life and, you know, don’t waste [01:43:50] after today. Don’t waste any more tears for me. I, I want you to to live happy as well. [01:43:55] And I hope you only think about like the best times that we had together. Yeah. [01:44:00]

Payman Langroudi: That’s super nice.

Sina Gilannejad: Thanks. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I’ve had a lot of people sit over here. [01:44:05] Yeah. But, um, I think your guest 330. Nice. Yeah. Or [01:44:10] something like that. Um, but the, the thing I love about you, [01:44:15] you’ve got this authenticity, like you’re, you’re answering the question completely, [01:44:20] honestly. That’s sweet. You can see it in the, in your eyeball, you’re looking up or you’re [01:44:25] not, you know, you’re not even for a second trying to filter it. You’re just telling it.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. [01:44:30]

Payman Langroudi: Um, which is beautiful. It’s beautiful.

Sina Gilannejad: I take that with a lot of, of, [01:44:35] you know, I’m really grateful for that. Thank you. Payman. And that’s why we get on so well because.

Payman Langroudi: We’re a massive [01:44:40] pleasure, man. Thank you so much for doing this.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make [01:44:45] sure you tune in for future episodes, hit subscribe in iTunes or [01:44:50] Google Play or whatever platform it is. And you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you [01:44:55] would, um, give.

Payman Langroudi: Us a six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. That’s [01:45:00] what I always leave my Uber driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.