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[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. [00:00:40] The podcast where you get to go one on one [00:00:45] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Adrian Dray and Kal Harron, both [00:01:00] from stack onto the podcast. Good to have you guys, man.

Adrian Dray: Thanks ever so much. It’s [00:01:05] good to be here.

Kautham Haran: Thanks for having us.

Payman Langroudi: Adrian was on a previous episode. I can’t remember [00:01:10] which number that was, but, um, you can just search in the Dental Leaders, um, feed [00:01:15] and find that long, brilliant episode. I love that episode with Prav. Yeah. [00:01:20] Um. I’ve never been on an episode of Dental. Leaders. [00:01:25] But good to have you tell me, both of you, how did you find k stack [00:01:30] or how did K stack find you?

Kautham Haran: Adrian I think your journey with stack starts a lot longer [00:01:35] than mine. So yeah, probably best to start with you.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, I think, I think to give some context, [00:01:40] you know, the, the question is why did you [00:01:45] give up a very comfortable, well-paying job in banking [00:01:50] to join a US company brand new to the UK in [00:01:55] dentistry that is known for really disliking change, right? [00:02:00] I think that’s the the thing because it seems on paper madness [00:02:05] and a massive gamble and, and it was and it, it the decision happened [00:02:10] in around 2023. But actually [00:02:15] where this started brewing happened when I came out of hospital with [00:02:20] Covid in 2021. So somewhere in the Dental community, um, [00:02:25] I got Covid really bad hospital bad. You’re going to die tonight bad. Um, [00:02:30] and my joke is spoiler alert, I didn’t, you know, but the, the, [00:02:35] the, um, uh, but the thing the reality was, is that [00:02:40] I had six months previous to that had given up my job at my dentist, thrown [00:02:45] all of my savings into setting up.

Payman Langroudi: A data, data.

Adrian Dray: Data protection.

Payman Langroudi: Officer. Yeah. [00:02:50] My dentist.

Adrian Dray: Yeah. And I thought, I’m going to help others practices and smaller groups. And I put, I moved house [00:02:55] and I put all of my investment, I had all of this savings and invested [00:03:00] into the business and all of this, uh, uh, business [00:03:05] lined up. And then after I came out of Covid in hospital, I’m in a wheelchair [00:03:10] and I can’t like, I can’t talk for more than ten minutes needing, needing to lie down [00:03:15] because my lungs are shot.

Payman Langroudi: They put you on a ventilator.

Adrian Dray: I was so close. They basically washed me down and said, either [00:03:20] going into ventilator tonight or you’re dying, right? It was sort of black and white as that. [00:03:25] So I thought, look, I want to I want to stay in dentistry. I can’t do GDPR. [00:03:30] Is there something else that I can do? And I was looking at the software scene, and I was noticing [00:03:35] there was a lot of talk about CRMs and lead management systems, but there wasn’t much that was out [00:03:40] there. And I found one which was a white label product. Now you [00:03:45] and I know what white label it is, and I realised not a lot in dentistry. No, it’s where you’ve got a [00:03:50] off.

Payman Langroudi: The shelf.

Adrian Dray: Off the shelf products, which you can then put a wrapper on where you can say [00:03:55] Adrian Dres lead management system or whatever it might be, but it’s the same system that’s being [00:04:00] used by someone else in veterinary or estate agents or whatever it might be. So [00:04:05] I thought, well, what I’ll do is I’ll, I’ll start building on this and help the community. [00:04:10] And I was got quite far with it. And then an individual in dentistry [00:04:15] who’s got a bit of a community came, came and found out about it and came to me and goes, I [00:04:20] want to get in on this. I want to help you push this out. And I was like, okay, yeah. Thank you. That sounds [00:04:25] really good. We’re great to leverage your your community. And it was just relentless day after day when you bring it out, when you [00:04:30] bring it out. And like, I nearly died like a few weeks ago, you know, can you just give me a chance? [00:04:35] And it got to the point where he wore me down so much, right? It became this sort of like, friend, [00:04:40] I’ll help you. Um, and then just went to this bully real bullish. And I [00:04:45] just got, you know what, here’s the name of the system. You take it, you do what you want. And [00:04:50] he grew a business out of it. And this software was going everywhere. As [00:04:55] more and more people were signing up, I’m watching my bank balance just come down and down and down. Right?

Payman Langroudi: What [00:05:00] was the emotion?

Adrian Dray: I was very angry at the time.

Payman Langroudi: Angry [00:05:05] at yourself. Because you gave him, I gave him.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, [00:05:10] I think I probably should have stood up for myself more, more. Um, and [00:05:15] I thought, this is this is awful. And I remember the end of that year, I was looking at my bank account. [00:05:20] I had like nothing in there. And like, this is going to really tough. Thankfully, I was living with my [00:05:25] mum at the time. And then all of a sudden, uh, this company out in the US who [00:05:30] I’d met previously wanted me to be their spokesperson because now I can talk once, [00:05:35] be their spokesperson on podcasts. I’ve talked about data security and they’re going to pay me like three grand a month.

Payman Langroudi: Just [00:05:40] cares that.

Adrian Dray: It wasn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, this wasn’t.

Adrian Dray: Exactly on its competitors.

Payman Langroudi: Um. [00:05:45]

Adrian Dray: And, uh, and then we just did this and.

Payman Langroudi: They found you.

Adrian Dray: They found me, they paid. I didn’t [00:05:50] go on one podcast, not one, right? They just they never set them up. Um and [00:05:55] but that helped me just to get back on my feet. And then I went, then I went into banking. Right. And I just kept my foot in [00:06:00] dentistry, kept my foot in dentistry. But I, I see in the groups and I saw then that [00:06:05] this product that was being used, this white label product, people were finding out it was white [00:06:10] labelled. And then they’re saying, well, why aren’t we just going straight to the company and just do it ourselves, [00:06:15] which they started to do. So the individual who sort of ripped off this idea, um, [00:06:20] he then scrambled, had to build his own product. And it was at that time I [00:06:25] realised, I know that building your own product is really hard. It’s [00:06:30] really tough to get it right. You can say made for dentists by dentists all the livelong [00:06:35] day. But if it doesn’t work right and it’s not continuously innovated, it’s there.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:06:40] you feel like you dodged a bullet in a way, because.

Adrian Dray: I feel like I dodged and learned a massive lesson that [00:06:45] if I did want to get into the software game, and it’s even makes even more sense now, [00:06:50] AI is the way it is that you need to have a big team behind you. [00:06:55] There has to be a huge vision that’s there because you know we have all something in common. [00:07:00] We deeply love dentistry. We love helping dental practice owners in [00:07:05] multiple ways. Some ways, I know Payman that you have done that. No one knows, right? Secretly have helped people [00:07:10] and I’ve done the same, done the same thing. And you, you [00:07:15] need to make sure that what you are bringing in, maybe it won’t be so great to begin with, but you’re not [00:07:20] you’re not putting people in a really bad position and you are really [00:07:25] fighting for and championing them. So now comes to the care stack bit in [00:07:30] 2022, I think it was late [00:07:35] 2022. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The post Covid boom, the post-COVID boom.

Adrian Dray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What a beautiful [00:07:40] era.

Adrian Dray: Actually, it’s 2023 now. I’m thinking of it. Yeah. It was. [00:07:45] When did you join us?

Kautham Haran: 2020 424 yeah.

Adrian Dray: It was 2023. So [00:07:50] 2023, I, um, I get this message from a mutual friend, a mutual, [00:07:55] a mutual friend, someone from the US who said there’s a, there’s a VP from [00:08:00] Straumann and the CEO of a cloud based practice management [00:08:05] system that’s coming to the UK are going to be in London on the weekend, and [00:08:10] the CEO wants ten dentists to be around a table to [00:08:15] show them this product, this cloud based practice management system. And [00:08:20] can you help me get those ten dentists? I’ll make it worth your while. And I said, [00:08:25] don’t pay me. I just want to be in the room. I want to be in the room. Right. [00:08:30] Um, because I have my background being a data protection [00:08:35] officer at my dentist, I’ve seen all these software providers, right, come to me [00:08:40] and they go, oh, we’re 100% GDPR compliant. You know, it’s like not even the ICO is 100% [00:08:45] GDPR compliant. Right? So I’m just, I’m used to all these kind of crappy answers and stuff. Like, I want to see [00:08:50] what these guys have got. I was, I was just intrigued by it. Yeah. And I sat inside their presentation [00:08:55] and I watched the faces of the other, the other dentists around the table. [00:09:00] And they were really intrigued. And I thought, there’s something here.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:09:05] so and did you get out of your compliance brain because, okay, compliance [00:09:10] is 1/20 of the product. Yeah. At that point, did you start thinking [00:09:15] product rather than how compliant is this product?

Adrian Dray: It’s a very good question [00:09:20] because my initial thought was, if I’m going to monetise this relationship, [00:09:25] I might be able to help with their GDPR position. When I saw that this this product [00:09:30] and the features it has available could help grow practices, well, [00:09:35] compliance and growth are like they repel each other, right? So [00:09:40] I’m like, if I’m going to help them, the GDPR bit is going right to one side, right. And I’m [00:09:45] just going to look at the growth side of things. Um, and that was [00:09:50] certainly that is the bit that inspired me. So I said to Abby, the CEO, and [00:09:55] for anyone who’s met Abby, he is a peculiar character. He’s a lovely [00:10:00] bloke. Um, uh, but he’s.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of.

Adrian Dray: Just very. And you never forget [00:10:05] the first time you meet Abby. Yeah. Right. Um, and we ended up having. We haven’t having [00:10:10] having a double shot of Laphroaig right at the end of this meeting. And I remember him [00:10:15] just putting his hand on my shoulder. He goes, Adrian, I think we’re going to be working with each other somehow if we [00:10:20] launch this in the UK. So I did about ten months worth of um, consultancy [00:10:25] with them for free. Right. Just to see how far they would get. And [00:10:30] that’s, that’s, that’s when, that’s when we launched, we took our first practices live and, uh, [00:10:35] it was crazy. There were moments where I just thought, why on earth [00:10:40] did I give up my comfortable, well-paying job in banking [00:10:45] because I was experiencing stressful moments [00:10:50] of a Start-Up, which I’ve never been in. I’ve never felt before. Um, [00:10:55] and we got through and, and those first three months, but it was clear. [00:11:00] It was clear at that point, I’m more on the demand generation, the creative [00:11:05] side. I am not good at operations. I can I can autosum [00:11:10] in Excel. That’s the limit of my Excel abilities.

Kautham Haran: Considering [00:11:15] you called it Autosum, I can tell. Is it not called that? What’s it called? It’s just called [00:11:20] sum. Is it a proper.

Payman Langroudi: Proper techie.

Kautham Haran: There.

Adrian Dray: Um, and then, you know, enters [00:11:25] enters Cal in into this as we’re starting to build our name, we’re starting to bring practices [00:11:30] on. And, you know, we lose one of our very first practices is, oh my goodness, what’s going on? [00:11:35] Um, and then we, we hear about, we hear about Cal. So we [00:11:40] hear about Cal working at one of the practices, one of the early practices that we take on, and this is early [00:11:45] 2020 for.

Payman Langroudi: Working at the practice.

Kautham Haran: Well, I was it was actually a friend’s practice. So [00:11:50] two of my they were my, you know, my best man at my wedding. They’re both, um, [00:11:55] dentists. They both have their own practices in London and um, I’ve, I’ve [00:12:00] listened to them talk about teeth since I think I was about 13 years old. You can imagine that dinner, there’s three of us [00:12:05] there and all they’re talking about is teeth because they’re dentists, they love their passion. And that’s what they’re that’s what they’re into. Me, [00:12:10] myself, I’ve got a fintech background. So straight out of university, co-founded a [00:12:15] peer to peer invoice finance company. Um, I did that for about eight years. So I’ve always been in that [00:12:20] Start-Up mode, not really corporate and understanding it from a kind of different viewpoint. [00:12:25] What did you study? I did maths and economics at university. We spun out of the [00:12:30] University of Warwick’s incubator program, so even they had belief in our business and things like that. [00:12:35] So.

Payman Langroudi: So in university you started this.

Kautham Haran: So in our final year, so didn’t do the kind of traditional [00:12:40] route that lots of people off our course normally do going into banking and those kind of things. So slightly different and enjoyed [00:12:45] that start up thrill. And I think, you know, like many dentists and business [00:12:50] owners here, you know, having your own Start-Up and doing it in that manner, the lows [00:12:55] are incredibly low, the highs are high. But bloody hell, when you’re sat there thinking, how am I going to pay staff? [00:13:00] And you know, those staff have mortgages, rent and stuff like this. You really do realise, you know [00:13:05] what struggle is in those kind of moments. I mean, obviously there’s much bigger struggles than life, but from a [00:13:10] business standpoint, I think that really taught me a lot. And then, you know, after I left that Start-Up [00:13:15] was looking to, you know, help my friends, you know, who was just set up his practice. [00:13:20] And I thought, I’ve got a bit of an ops head, as Adrian was saying, and I know these guys are good [00:13:25] clinically, but anything I could do to kind of help them. And in that time, I think he [00:13:30] was the first customer of voice tech, I think at the time.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, it must be the fifth, [00:13:35] fifth practice. Yeah.

Kautham Haran: And I remember going and being sitting [00:13:40] in his practice and learning it before, uh, deep Patel. Doctor Patel, I [00:13:45] guess in one Dental. So he’s got, uh, he’s just opened up his second practice, actually in Kensington. So shout out to [00:13:50] deep. He’s doing very well. And, um, when I, you know, typically [00:13:55] the process is someone from Csat comes down, teaches you how to use the software and all of that. Before they’d sent someone [00:14:00] down there, I quite figured out what we needed to, to be done and then met the third [00:14:05] of our trio, Shamanth, who’s kind of head of UK product at the time now our head of customer success. [00:14:10] And I said, oh, interesting. And then I think at that point.

Adrian Dray: I get a couple of calls, right? [00:14:15] So I get a call from from Kirsty, uh, who heads up our training now.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your official [00:14:20] title?

Adrian Dray: Who knows? Abbey’s butler. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Are you like country [00:14:25] manager? Are you that.

Adrian Dray: No no no no, I’m well, officially I’m the director of [00:14:30] partnerships. I think I direct probably about one partnership.

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Adrian Dray: I’m director of demand [00:14:35] generation. I think.

Payman Langroudi: What’s you don’t have an official.

Adrian Dray: I kind of just fit in basically. [00:14:40] Um, uh, but yeah, I, I don’t, I’m the, what’s actually really lovely just to jump, [00:14:45] just sign on, on the conversation we’re having with Cal. But, uh, we’ve had like [00:14:50] general managers, country managers in, in our team, it hasn’t really worked out well. [00:14:55] And we found that actually having this trio of Cal Shamanth and I [00:15:00] works really well and we’ve become like brothers.

Payman Langroudi: But what is that implementation? [00:15:05] Yeah, marketing.

Adrian Dray: Marketing.

Payman Langroudi: And operations.

Adrian Dray: Um, customer success. [00:15:10]

Kautham Haran: Customer before he was product. Now it’s customer success. So it’s kind of the chain kind [00:15:15] of goes from Adrian to myself to Charlotte. Yeah. So between the three of us, I think as Adrian’s [00:15:20] mentioned, it’s, it’s a peculiar situation. I don’t think you often see a trio like us without someone [00:15:25] necessarily on top of us. Um, but I think exactly what you’ve said.

Adrian Dray: It has [00:15:30] radical, radical candour there. And I think actually that’s probably what’s played in quite well because at [00:15:35] this time, right. This is early.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re not his boss?

Adrian Dray: No, no, no.

Payman Langroudi: You feel like you’re equals? Yes. And [00:15:40] the other guys? Yes.

Adrian Dray: Yeah. For sure.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And there is no. No one above you.

Kautham Haran: Yeah. I think none [00:15:45] of us want the role. I think as well, that’s probably also all of us are [00:15:50] out there.

Payman Langroudi: There’s an opening there for someone.

Adrian Dray: Without.

Payman Langroudi: Responsibility.

Adrian Dray: Yeah I [00:15:55] think.

Payman Langroudi: Can I, can I, can I get back to you? What’s something that interests me, right, is, you know, the [00:16:00] notion of your biggest strength is your biggest weakness also.

Adrian Dray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That, [00:16:05] you know, the way you gave up your software.

Adrian Dray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You could call that your biggest [00:16:10] weakness in a way, because, you know, it was an outcome you didn’t enjoy. But [00:16:15] the way that you said, I’ll work for free or I’ll come, I’ll turn up to this meeting. You don’t need to pay me. It’s [00:16:20] a similar, similar skill, similar sort of trait. And that’s one of the biggest [00:16:25] strengths someone can have to say, I’m so excited about something. Don’t even pay me, you know, [00:16:30] and you know, the what works in life for you is, is going to be [00:16:35] a combination of the good stuff that comes out of your biggest strength. [00:16:40] And, and the bad stuff that comes out of your biggest strength.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, I’ve probably become a little bit wiser [00:16:45] to it now. And it actually all comes down to.

Payman Langroudi: Harder, harder.

Adrian Dray: Harder. Yeah. Um, [00:16:50] but I think that it comes down for me having a real interest in the etymology or [00:16:55] the history of the word opportunity. So opportunity is, is, comes [00:17:00] from two Latin words and it goes right back to, uh, Mediterranean [00:17:05] maritime situation where you’ve got this old vessel that’s just on [00:17:10] the flat water. Maybe it’s just come out of a horrible storm. All the sailors [00:17:15] have got scurvy. Whatever it is, they just want to go home, right? They just want to go home. And home for [00:17:20] one. Might be just seeing these family. Home for another is like going to the tavern and having a knees up, right? Home [00:17:25] for the captain is like, let’s get this flipping cargo off so I can get paid. Yeah, [00:17:30] yeah. Right. So there’s, there’s always this thing of like, I need to get, get home. So what [00:17:35] would happen? Back in those times? I didn’t have any motors. Of course they’re relying on the trade winds. And [00:17:40] if you can just picture the scene where you’ve got this old vessel with [00:17:45] really upset and discouraged sailors who are on this flat water, who just want to go home brews [00:17:50] and bash the pieces. They start, they start feeling a wind, [00:17:55] right? That’s coming through. They don’t know if that’s the next storm or whether that’s going to be the trade wind. So [00:18:00] the navigator would say something like Tempest Opportuneness and Tempest [00:18:05] Opportuneness means well, actually look at opportunities. Two words OP means [00:18:10] going towards and port means port or harbour. So he’s effectively saying [00:18:15] this is the moment, this is the wind that will take us home.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe, maybe [00:18:20] right.

Adrian Dray: But the thing is, is that the navigator, right? Who’s calling that? He’s got [00:18:25] a big responsibility. He’s like, right, let the flipping sails down. Now this is the this is the wind that will [00:18:30] take us home. Yeah. And so when I have these moments that come up, I’ve [00:18:35] probably become a bit of a sharper navigator to think, yes, this is the [00:18:40] opportunity here, and that you have to be in the situation where you’re [00:18:45] doing, which creates momentum, which then helps you catch that [00:18:50] opportunity. So you’re right. I saw an opportunity there [00:18:55] when I got out of out of Covid hospital, and it didn’t go [00:19:00] my way, so to speak, but it certainly helped me realise [00:19:05] a much greater opportunity that’s here. And I think also the way that we recognise [00:19:10] hiring cow. So just go back to the second half of that story. I get [00:19:15] a phone call from Kirsty who’s saying I won’t do Kirsty Scottish accent because you’ll [00:19:20] kill me. Um, but she’s basically saying this guy cow is. He’s totally getting care [00:19:25] stack. He’s like a wizard with it. Shamanth calls me, he’s like, this guy’s great. I’m [00:19:30] with Abbey in London and I was talking to Abbey. It’s like, let’s let’s [00:19:35] meet him. Let’s meet him. So we’re at the Cinnamon Club. Um, you know, in town. Yeah. Indian [00:19:40] place. And it’s got little, little cocktail bar downstairs, and, uh, we arranged to meet Cao [00:19:45] Cao comes down and. And, uh, we get him a drink, and [00:19:50] it’s his first time. First time meeting Abbey as well. Um, but Abbey had a drink, so he was, [00:19:55] he was a bit more loosened up compared to when I first met him. Um, and I [00:20:00] think within 15 minutes we decided we want to hire Cao. Right.

Kautham Haran: Uh, [00:20:05] do you know what I’ve actually heard? I’ve heard that you’d made that decision earlier that day because you went to demo. [00:20:10] My other, uh, best man obeyed who runs W Dental um, in Twickenham [00:20:15] and now in Tooting. He had told me that when you had gone to see him, that you guys had potentially made the decision [00:20:20] to hire. And I thought, bloody hell, why didn’t you tell me that before I. Asked [00:20:25] for a bit more if I if I’d known that was going to be the case. [00:20:30]

Adrian Dray: That’s why we didn’t tell you. But but then, you know, Cal, [00:20:35] and we we said, look, we we’re not gonna we’re not gonna put you in the role of director straight away. Um, [00:20:40] but we’re going to just see how you sort of, you know, grapple [00:20:45] with this roller coaster that we have at the moment with a new product and we’re realising things that [00:20:50] are not working the way it should do for a UK business and all this kind of stuff. Um, but [00:20:55] there was the foundation of that absolute radical transparency [00:21:00] that, that we, that we were developing in those early days, which have even [00:21:05] with everything else, which may be chaotic at times. That’s our anchor, right? The [00:21:10] three of us with Shamanth as well. Um, to just be ever so [00:21:15] up front with each other. And if there’s a moment of ego, you, [00:21:20] you got to leave the room. And I mean, often I’m told go to [00:21:25] Stockholm, right? Go to go on holiday. Chill out for a couple of days, then come back and [00:21:30] I feel a little bit better. But yeah, but that’s um, if you don’t mind me [00:21:35] hijacking the second half of your story.

Kautham Haran: I do think, I think at that [00:21:40] time, probably when I was helping my friend out, I was looking for, you know, different roles and trying to see what kind of fits, I think with [00:21:45] care Stack when it came along, you know, when you’re young, you can do a Start-Up with [00:21:50] quite low risk. I think you don’t necessarily have a family, those kind of other things. As you get a bit older, [00:21:55] you have to take those risks on, um, and make that decision. But with Care Stack, I think the way it was, [00:22:00] it’s an established company launching a new market. It’s effectively the best of both. You can [00:22:05] kind of have your fast, agile hats on to try and change things almost daily, [00:22:10] weekly, which I tell you my team hate because of how fast I want to iterate and make sure [00:22:15] things are better. But then you’ve also got a bit more security in the company itself, because you can see what it’s done, where it’s [00:22:20] going.

Payman Langroudi: There’s not going to be a cash crisis the day after tomorrow.

Kautham Haran: Exactly that. So I think naturally, in my journey of where [00:22:25] I was, I think guess that came at a perfect opportunity. And for me then, you know, [00:22:30] when you’re saying about ego, I think I personally had a bit of an ego that there’s no way I’m not going [00:22:35] to make this work because how rare is it to find that kind of opportunity where those things align? So in [00:22:40] my head, it was quite clear what I wanted to do and how we would make this work. [00:22:45] And I think also naturally, I think when I first spoke to you, Adrian, I could see between yourself and Shamanth Shamanth [00:22:50] being more technical yourself.

Adrian Dray: Obviously not.

Kautham Haran: I could see myself fitting [00:22:55] directly in the middle, and I think that was the first thing I noticed within about ten, 15 minutes of talking to you. And [00:23:00] I think then, you know, some things are meant to be, so to speak, and I think it did [00:23:05] work well.

Payman Langroudi: And I think, look, considering how, you know, it wasn’t very long, long ago [00:23:10] when all this happened. Right. What did you say? 22, 23?

Adrian Dray: Uh, when we hired him.

Kautham Haran: 2024 [00:23:15] yeah, I’ve been with.

Adrian Dray: The company officially as an employed person [00:23:20] for two years. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s amazing because like, look, if Kiyosaki has only been around 2 or 3 [00:23:25] years. It feels like it’s been around a lot longer than that. Yeah. And that well done by, you [00:23:30] know, getting into people’s heads in a way, um, with, with the messaging [00:23:35] and then you’ve got the product itself. What kind of, I don’t understand [00:23:40] about the amount of effort that [00:23:45] Abbey is putting into the UK is that it’s a massive change, [00:23:50] right? You’ve got regulatory differences, you’ve got insurance differences, you’ve got differences. Yeah. [00:23:55] And the market size of the UK is like the same as Oregon. Yeah. [00:24:00] Or something. So is there an imperative that’s like is, [00:24:05] is breaking through the UK to do with more than the [00:24:10] income that the UK will bring.

Adrian Dray: I it’s a very good question [00:24:15] and I think you probably put it in the best, best way that I’ve ever, ever heard of it because it doesn’t make [00:24:20] on paper. It doesn’t make sense. Right.

Payman Langroudi: Well, the amount of, of, of input [00:24:25] from America, you know, it’s a lot.

Kautham Haran: Yeah, absolutely. The size of the markets. Yeah. The difference in the size [00:24:30] is huge.

Adrian Dray: And there’s like 80 plus practice management systems that you can choose from in the US. Right. [00:24:35] Right. In the in the UK is about 12.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Adrian Dray: Right. Maybe 14. [00:24:40] Um so the question comes down to why [00:24:45] on earth haven’t other US systems tried to come to the UK and why [00:24:50] did castac. Right. That’s, that’s the thing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. With such force.

Adrian Dray: With such force. [00:24:55] The the Henry Shine one have tried to bring [00:25:00] in a. Before they purchased Dentali did try to bring in a cloud based [00:25:05] system. Um and it didn’t work out for them for lots of different reasons. [00:25:10] I think from what I’ve heard, one of the big reasons is because of the development [00:25:15] required around the NHS side of things, which we know is difficult. Yeah. Um, if I got that [00:25:20] wrong, please don’t send me a cease and desist.

Payman Langroudi: So Dental is native [00:25:25] UK, right? So yeah, so NHS is.

Adrian Dray: Yeah. Um James um I’ve seen [00:25:30] him from afar. But yeah, the founder is I think, I believe he’s his dad is a dentist and they, [00:25:35] they, they built that from which is incredible journey. I mean I’ve got, I give him a lot of Dental.

Payman Langroudi: He hasn’t got a US [00:25:40] presence.

Adrian Dray: No. I think there’s Canada and Australia now. They’re they’re [00:25:45] moving. Interesting. Yeah. Um so they, you know, there, there has been attempts to bring [00:25:50] in US systems here, but most of them have been, you know, home-grown. Um [00:25:55] and, you know, to their, to their credit, they’ve done [00:26:00] very well to navigate the bureaucracy around the NHS, which can be extremely [00:26:05] frustrating sometimes and good on them. And we realise how difficult that [00:26:10] was going going to be. And there was a lot of eating of humble pie. Payman. [00:26:15] Right. You’ve got hundreds of engineers and we’re thinking, how hard can it be? Right [00:26:20] and it and it is hard. So, um, but [00:26:25] we, we had already at the point where we became ready for NHS, which [00:26:30] what we say comfortably mid last year that we were ready [00:26:35] after beta practices, but by the time we got there, we’d already taken 10% [00:26:40] of the private only market in England. Well right. So there was [00:26:45] squat practices now have started to favour care stack, um for [00:26:50] lots of different reasons. And they’re doing really well with it. Um and then [00:26:55] when you have this kind of momentum, plus you’re building the team and we’re getting this sort [00:27:00] of notoriety that even though there’s 14 systems, when you look at, you know, dentists [00:27:05] for dentists and other Facebook groups, it’s usually care stack versus another [00:27:10] large name, right? So that’s even though we have probably got the least [00:27:15] number of practices compared to top five, we have got the most mental like monopoly. [00:27:20] Had we not been able to do that, I don’t think we would have been. We would still [00:27:25] be here. That’s my personal opinion. That’s not that’s not a statement on behalf of Care Stack.

Adrian Dray: But [00:27:30] but I realise that the the amount of momentum that we’ve had to pick up an investment [00:27:35] that’s there. Now, to answer the second part of your question, what’s the kind [00:27:40] of the bigger plan or is there a bigger plan? You see, the, the one [00:27:45] thing that that Abby told me the first time I met him is that like, the biggest mistake you can make [00:27:50] is thinking that care Stack is just a practice management system company. You see a lot [00:27:55] of the big companies in the world, for example, Henry Schein have started started with distribution. [00:28:00] They’re a cradle to grave organisation. They started with distribution and now [00:28:05] they’ve gone into everything else. You can buy and sell your practice through Henry Schein. You can [00:28:10] buy technology products and this kind of stuff. We all know the importance of data now. [00:28:15] So Really starting off from a software perspective, particularly in this new technological [00:28:20] era that we’re in, allows an organisation like ours [00:28:25] to move into those other areas. So for example, we have telephony. Now we [00:28:30] have other arms like payment gateways and other offerings [00:28:35] which are now being grown in the US that potentially might come here in the UK. [00:28:40] Some of them interact with the PMS, some of them not [00:28:45] so much. Right. But it means that you start from this technology foundation [00:28:50] and we we’re not thinking, oh, how, how are we going to what are we going to like in the next couple of years? We’re thinking [00:28:55] about what we look like in the next 15, 25, 50 years. And, and [00:29:00] having that technology cornerstone puts you in a much better, much better [00:29:05] position because you come from a position of data.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So look, I mean, sacs known [00:29:10] for having a lot of features, right? And you know what? You you must know in software, [00:29:15] there must be a name for the hassle of switching platforms.

Kautham Haran: Yeah. Change management. [00:29:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So. So the last thing a dentist wants is to have eight different software’s to, [00:29:25] to manage. And stack has a bunch of it within it. Right. But that doesn’t answer [00:29:30] my question at all. Maybe you’re not aware of what’s the reason that [00:29:35] the company in the US would put so much resource into one market [00:29:40] as small as the UK? Maybe. Don’t know.

Adrian Dray: Oh yeah. Sorry, I thought I did answer [00:29:45] that. I think we got to remember that we’ve got, um, one of our [00:29:50] largest minority shareholders is Straumann as well. Okay. So you know, [00:29:55] there is there has been interest that is there because Straumann is very big [00:30:00] internationally, but particularly in the UK as well. Um, and [00:30:05] what we recognised is that with a lot of the practice management systems [00:30:10] that are available in the UK, not many of them. In fact, [00:30:15] I don’t think any of them have been purpose built for DSOs, for Dental groups. [00:30:20] Csec has. So when you’re able to provide [00:30:25] that as a choice, as an offering to Dental groups, which means that no longer [00:30:30] are they dealing with their systems across their estate and having to make changes on an individual [00:30:35] basis that now they can add add a NHS contract in minutes, rather [00:30:40] than it taking hours or sometimes weeks asking someone else to. They need to update their [00:30:45] codes across the whole group. They want to change their pricing. They want [00:30:50] to do certain campaigns for pockets of the estate. They can do this super quickly. [00:30:55] And also the reporting across the group is also super, super [00:31:00] easy.

Payman Langroudi: The dashboards makes it obvious the number of sites and all of that.

Adrian Dray: Yeah. I [00:31:05] mean, you’re probably going to correct everything I said.

Kautham Haran: No. All the all the data points that you can get out [00:31:10] of care stack as well, not just necessarily reporting within the PMS itself, but also taking that out [00:31:15] and building your own data warehouses. All of that functionality is there. So I think that [00:31:20] is the core point for us. I think as a company, seeing that opportunity in [00:31:25] the UK market, considering what the other providers necessarily weren’t attacking vigorously [00:31:30] potentially, and also thinking probably with a level of naivety that, oh, [00:31:35] if we’ve got a UK English product, let’s say in the US, dentistry in the UK, [00:31:40] can we make it, you know, map it over? I think the two things combined probably then did attack that [00:31:45] and then we realised what are our strengths in the US. Exactly what Adrian saying and knowing all those things. There’s [00:31:50] definitely opportunity here. So I think that’s that’s core reason.

Payman Langroudi: And what’s the positioning in [00:31:55] the US like as far as you know, are they are they out of those 50 [00:32:00] systems as far as uptake, where’s care stack?

Adrian Dray: I don’t know where they are in its [00:32:05] specific positioning, but what I would say is how.

Payman Langroudi: Old is care stack in the US.

Adrian Dray: Ten [00:32:10] years.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, that’s all right. Yeah. It’s all very new.

Adrian Dray: Yeah. So they are there. I [00:32:15] think one of the fastest growing. Practice management systems that are out there. Um, and [00:32:20] again, it’s the same thing. It’s, it’s the ability to have all of your main core [00:32:25] features that typically you would pay another software provider, which doesn’t speak to, even though it says [00:32:30] it integrates, it doesn’t do it properly, but having it all in one place makes life a [00:32:35] lot easier.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s go through the top 3 or 4 things. So you said, um, you know, [00:32:40] DSOs reporting. Yeah. What else? What else? What else is under the bonnet that isn’t in [00:32:45] most other systems.

Kautham Haran: I mean, I think the core thing is the functionality to be able to, let’s say a DSO [00:32:50] is split across the country, as in you would have certain area or, you know, district managers, let’s [00:32:55] say someone’s responsible for northeast, that kind of splitting up of that data where you don’t see it all under one, and [00:33:00] you could group it all into those kind of things. Oh that’s cool. So from that side, I think, you know, giving those [00:33:05] DSOs that kind of opportunity to do so it’s interesting where I think the challenge for a PMS provider [00:33:10] is always, you’ve got management who look at one thing, but you’ve also got clinicians who only care [00:33:15] about another thing and front of house, who probably care about even less, or something completely [00:33:20] different, and catering to all of them in one place while doing all of those things. You know, how [00:33:25] do you make a complex system that gives the right person all the data points, but then let [00:33:30] it be easy enough that someone who doesn’t care is just there to do their job, doesn’t care about the running, doesn’t [00:33:35] do all those things. How do you make all of those things manage? So that’s a very delicate balance.

Kautham Haran: And then [00:33:40] creating the ecosystem, as Adrian saying, if everything plugs into each other, they all talk to each other. [00:33:45] You then work out from change management, management perspective. That’s kind of what our teams [00:33:50] do is to make sure, how do you give each of those individual teams a benefit? Because at the end of the day, why [00:33:55] else are they moving if you can’t show value? Value is shown in time or money, right? For [00:34:00] from our perspective. So even then, even though fine, you could do the reporting side [00:34:05] for the DSO. But if you then have the little bits working, that then all compounds up [00:34:10] because if you’re then saving front of house two hours per day, because they don’t need to look at typing [00:34:15] call recordings or something like this. They then that then gives that front of House member more time [00:34:20] to call up patients, fill the diary, and then that leads to more revenue elsewhere. So I think naturally, [00:34:25] just the way that case that’s been built kind of allows everything from the top [00:34:30] down. And even looking at it from bottom up both ways kind of functions in a good way.

Adrian Dray: So I think from a time and [00:34:35] money perspective as well, one of the features that we have got is the ability for a practice to [00:34:40] manage their own plan within the system. So what [00:34:45] the current behaviour is, is that you go to a third party, um, they deal with the [00:34:50] direct debits and the management, all this kind of thing. The problem for practices is a, [00:34:55] a cost because they’re having to pay a fee for that. The, the second [00:35:00] thing is being able to consolidate and understand the data and whether [00:35:05] this patient is still paying for that and they’ve just cancelled, but they’ve just booked in a hygiene like [00:35:10] that sort of thing. So with Care Stark’s own plans, the [00:35:15] patient can sign up in the chair as quickly as they sign [00:35:20] up for Netflix. And now the practice is able to understand [00:35:25] the usage of that plan. They can see whether the patient has cancelled. They can try again, [00:35:30] they can reach out, and they can have tailored plans to certain types [00:35:35] of situations. So you could have a minimum or essentials plan.

Payman Langroudi: We’re talking [00:35:40] about capitation, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Adrian Dray: Or you can have a specific plan that’s for implant patients, for [00:35:45] example, which is seen as a value a value add. But what you’re able to do [00:35:50] now is you’re able to see, I’m sorry, a be able to, to get people on [00:35:55] board at speed. And B, you’ve got a cost saving. So one of our practices [00:36:00] up in the north west, um, I won’t give his figures but they’re very, very [00:36:05] impressive figures. But from from a squat practice in under [00:36:10] a year, he was able to get 800 people. And he’s mostly Invisalign. Right. [00:36:15] 800 people onto a plan that he has built within care stack, you know, in like, yeah, [00:36:20] ten, 10 or 11 months. So that’s brilliant. And it’s so quick. They come in for [00:36:25] their Invisalign. They have an amazing experience. We’ve got, you know, general dentists here. We’ve got a hygienist [00:36:30] here. Can we put you on the plan. Absolutely done.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:36:35] the plus side is all this optionality um [00:36:40] all singing, all dancing plan this that and the other, [00:36:45] the downside as I’m understanding it is that introduces complication. [00:36:50] And so what’s the issue? Like does that mean onboarding [00:36:55] harder with it?

Kautham Haran: I think onboarding is probably one of the hardest things [00:37:00] when you’re looking at it, because in general, a practice management software is the one place where [00:37:05] you do everything from payments, booking appointments, online appointments, all the kind of different [00:37:10] things charting, treatment, planning, all the different functions within a dental practice get funnelled [00:37:15] through a practice management software. Now getting everyone [00:37:20] to I mean, it’s a it’s a mammoth thing, right? And I think one of the things that we’re quite [00:37:25] open with, with our customers is it’s not going to be easy. And it’s whether [00:37:30] those practices that we’re working with are ready for that challenge or whether their teams are, um, I’m [00:37:35] not sales, I’m ops. So I’m realistic on, on, on how these kind of things work and [00:37:40] navigating that when you could have, if you’ve got someone who’s been in that practice, who’s been there for 30 [00:37:45] years on one system, how do you get that person to kind of shift over and understand why they’re [00:37:50] in it? Why are they doing this? What’s the benefit to them? How do you then explain that benefit [00:37:55] to that person, but also keep the same benefit to management and other people within that practice? So [00:38:00] it’s getting I think for me it’s quite interesting because I always talk about this a lot that [00:38:05] from a customer standpoint, the teams that are the most aligned with that vision, within that [00:38:10] practice is equal from the owners all the way down.

Kautham Haran: They’re actually the ones that handle the change [00:38:15] the best. Whereas if people are just coming in and you know, they’re just there to do their job 9 to 5, [00:38:20] they’re going to give you headaches. And that’s, that’s, that’s always a given in change [00:38:25] management. And so our team are trained on those kind of things. How do you how do you deal with those kind of people? How do [00:38:30] you talk to those people who bring down and probably bring some negative energy within it when they’re not happy? [00:38:35] How do we deal with them? How do you give them that kind of bit of TLC, to be honest, to get [00:38:40] them to see, okay, I can do this. Maybe I’m not meant to learn everything [00:38:45] in a in a week and we can learn this over a staggered period. And for us, it’s that [00:38:50] understanding of people that’s actually more important because once you know your audience, you then tailor [00:38:55] it in that different way. And trust me, that wasn’t something we knew that comes from experience as we have, [00:39:00] you know, all the different dental practices we worked with made up of composition, all these different compositions. [00:39:05] Um, and then you learn what works, um, how you train, how you do these different things. [00:39:10] So complexity is the hard bit.

Adrian Dray: And also how to prepare our teams. You know, you, you imagine [00:39:15] that they, I mean, our guys KAOS team are warriors, [00:39:20] right? That blood, sweat and tears that they put.

Payman Langroudi: The engineers.

Adrian Dray: Know this is the implementation. [00:39:25]

Kautham Haran: The.

Adrian Dray: Implementation, you know, and and we’ve got I mean, for example. Shreya. [00:39:30] Right. Shreya she, uh, she was a receptionist, what, two years ago? [00:39:35] Yeah, yeah. In a dental practice. Um, Abby did a demo at the practice, was so impressed by [00:39:40] the questions that she was asking, took the owner to one side and said, I’d like to hire [00:39:45] her. Right. Do I have your permission? We had to wait a little bit, but Shreya has gone, um, [00:39:50] from from being a very good receptionist to now, you know, basically [00:39:55] one of cows number two, right? Lead implementation person and [00:40:00] is when you meet her, one of the most sweetest, kindest people [00:40:05] you’ve ever met and has been, but is able to put up with so much like challenging [00:40:10] conversations because it’s hard, right? You, you, you really invest in your client [00:40:15] and then you’ve got some someone who can be obnoxious or ignorant or [00:40:20] whatever saying, well, yeah, the button’s not in the place where I had it on. So and so, [00:40:25] you know, take my take my eyes, but don’t take my SOE. Right. And it’s difficult. [00:40:30] So we have to kind of build those, those teams as well that don’t lose their empathy, [00:40:35] but still have a very, very thick skin.

Kautham Haran: The level of resilience needed [00:40:40] for that is, is honestly, I think, incredibly underrated. I think when you’re looking at change [00:40:45] management people, humans are averse to change just naturally. Yeah. Right. And then trying [00:40:50] to get through, smile through it and do that is incredibly difficult. And I think it is testament to my [00:40:55] team, Shreya and the others as well in the team. I mean, we’ve got X implementation [00:41:00] team members who have implementation experience and they’ve never had a job like this. Really? And they’ve explicitly said that to [00:41:05] me. It’s not like implementation in any other company they’re used to. Potentially implementing one customer [00:41:10] at a time. Whereas in K stack, you’re implementing ten simultaneously [00:41:15] at different levels of the process or different stages. But also because we’re a Start-Up, that process [00:41:20] is constantly evolving. So if you imagine it’s not a linear thing, it’s two dimensional. And [00:41:25] that is incredibly difficult to to do. And I think it’s kudos to the team and probably [00:41:30] the ethos of, of k stack itself that, you know, when I interview, I tell all of [00:41:35] them, this is going to be difficult work if this. And I tell them, you know, I’m [00:41:40] quite honest and open, I don’t want to see them here within two years from when they join, because [00:41:45] for me, they should be learning from everything and they should be pushing themselves to do more and more [00:41:50] and more, and that’s what they’re in it for.

Kautham Haran: I think building them up in that way, gaining [00:41:55] the resilience, how to fastly spot problems, how to iterate for customers, put them at number one, [00:42:00] two, three, and four, and then themselves, I think, then puts them in a position that if they then went [00:42:05] on to do any other thing, it’s that Start-Up mentality that then they can then take on probably [00:42:10] learning that from my own experience, that it sets them up in the right way for them to tackle [00:42:15] their futures in dentistry or in any other field that they want to, because they’ve dealt with the [00:42:20] pressures of probably care stack. And, you know, we have demanding customers, but, you [00:42:25] know, internal ethos of us of ours rather is, you know, doing [00:42:30] more for the customer than they pay us for. And therefore that, you know, takes a lot out of you. [00:42:35] Um, but I would say, you know, it gets to that point where I think, and I’ve had these kind [00:42:40] of conversations with them, you need to enjoy that thrill. You need to enjoy that pain, [00:42:45] so to speak. It’s a bit, it’s a, it’s a bit weird to say.

Adrian Dray: It’s like, stop trying to hit me and hit me. Right? [00:42:50]

Kautham Haran: It’s that it takes, it takes that because I think, you know, dentistry is fast [00:42:55] paced. There’s very fine margins, and making sure that we’re [00:43:00] giving the most to these customers is the most important thing. One small error from [00:43:05] our side could lead to a huge loss in revenue for the customer. And it’s not okay to just [00:43:10] say, oh, sorry, you know, we should be seeking the highest standards internally [00:43:15] to make sure it reflects the standards that they’ve got with their, you know, if they’ve got private patients that [00:43:20] they’re charging, you know, quite a decent whack for, you know, treatment plans, it’s as [00:43:25] a PMS provider, do we deserve that business? Well, we need to and to show that [00:43:30] we need to have that level of care and attention to detail that mistakes don’t, you know, [00:43:35] don’t slip through. So kudos to the team. I think it’s not not easy for sure. [00:43:40]

Adrian Dray: And we’ve never we’ve never built teams out like this before. You know.

Payman Langroudi: How many people did you have in your own fintech? [00:43:45]

Kautham Haran: Uh, at its peak we had about 15. But then we developed systems [00:43:50] that then meant you could reduce the team size.

Payman Langroudi: So were you on the up side in that business too?

Kautham Haran: Yeah. [00:43:55] Same. But you know, in a Start-Up, you always end up wearing many hats. Probably. Why? When I joined, you [00:44:00] know, never done implementation before, but I knew that I tackled most of the things that I’ve tackled. [00:44:05] It’s been okay. And I thought building that’s the big thing for me that I’ve found [00:44:10] probably the most enjoyable. And what I’ve taken out the most from Care Stack is building teams. I think watching people like Shreya, [00:44:15] Fouad and the others, um, all kind of progress for me is that [00:44:20] kind of drives me now. I think building teams, you know, it’s that [00:44:25] ethos of if I go away or I’m not there, do they have the same standards that we’ve all set? [00:44:30] Probably from Abby to us to then the next level. And I think we’re all aligned from that [00:44:35] point. Because then if, Adrian, you went away for a couple of weeks, if I went away for a month. Then [00:44:40] other teams still doing the things to the same standard, which when [00:44:45] we first started, we know was never the case when we first joined Caius. So I think that’s [00:44:50] that’s.

Adrian Dray: Kudos to five day holiday in my first year.

Kautham Haran: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s a continuous evolution, [00:44:55] isn’t it? That the way that you you’re going to go forward for the next you’re saying 25 [00:45:00] years. Yeah. Yeah. That that running of a business. Um, what it’s [00:45:05] interesting to me is that, you know, of course, wanting to be something and actually executing [00:45:10] on that thing are two totally different emotions, two different skills, [00:45:15] right? I’m definitely you need one before the other. Yeah. We want to give back more than we’re [00:45:20] getting. Sure. Right. But as the number grows, particularly as the number of customers grows, [00:45:25] that becomes harder and harder and harder to pull off.

Kautham Haran: Yeah, I think [00:45:30] where we were, I think, Adrian, you would agree on this. We we sold so fast. And [00:45:35] you know, like you said, Payman about it sounds like we’ve been around for a lot longer than two, three years. Yeah. And [00:45:40] then our operations kind of had to catch up, if I’m being honest. And I think catching up while you’ve got [00:45:45] team members. Yeah. While they’re, you know, they’re used to, you know, they’re used to being in much larger organisations [00:45:50] where on process happens. That’s it for about three, four years. You know, the [00:45:55] red tape and everything to change something. Whereas for us, it’s if we’ve done something wrong with the customer, we’ve [00:46:00] learned from it. Okay, that changes tomorrow for every other customer.

Payman Langroudi: What surprised you the [00:46:05] most about dentists or dentistry or dental practices? Because [00:46:10] you had your friends, you kind of knew.

Kautham Haran: Um, [00:46:15] for me, I think from the dentist [00:46:20] standpoint, I do think not enough of them put emphasis on their teams, which [00:46:25] surprised me because I’ve seen it. For example, maybe I’m biased with maybe [00:46:30] some of the practices that I saw early. Um, and I think for me, investing [00:46:35] in people now, obviously I’m biased based on what I was saying earlier about that’s kind of been [00:46:40] my drive recently, but I do think having the people within [00:46:45] the practice who are aligning your vision, You know, I’ve seen some practice owners who kind [00:46:50] of just do their bit. They’re used to being clinicians and individual contributors. So they’re the [00:46:55] ones the backbone of the practice. But as a business model that then doesn’t necessarily let them scale. Some [00:47:00] of them don’t want to. Right. I’m not saying that, but there are others that are frustrated that their team aren’t [00:47:05] doing the same things or believing in it the same way they are, but they don’t have shares [00:47:10] in the business. Why should they? So what is it you’re giving to your team members to let them see the vision that [00:47:15] you have? What’s the trade off? You know, I use an example where it’s like, [00:47:20] you know, if you’re trying to motivate your team and trying to bring them, you know, if they hit certain targets, [00:47:25] do you take them to Nando’s or if they smash them, do you take them to Nobu? Right. Those kind [00:47:30] of differences is, does that come through and flow through to the teams all throughout, or is it just a job for them? [00:47:35] Because in my opinion, if it is just a job for them, um, for certain members within [00:47:40] the team, it’s difficult then for you to step away from it and to scale that. So I think [00:47:45] that’s definitely something that for me, I was more surprised at, I think, uh, when speaking [00:47:50] about it with some practice owners, I think there’s, they’ve never really seen it that way, [00:47:55] which I found quite interesting. Um, I think they’re more a.

Payman Langroudi: Component of that is career progression within a dental [00:48:00] practice. Some are very good at it, but some would rather have teams. I mean, you said I want [00:48:05] you not to be here in two years time. Some would rather have the kind of person who’s not [00:48:10] interested in progression. And and so that leads to that [00:48:15] same sort of atmosphere of, you know, why should I now move, you know, the kind of person who’s not [00:48:20] interested in progressing and if and if you employ for that. Yeah. You know, [00:48:25] I come across dentists, you must too, right. They want a nurse who’s just going to be there and be the nurse. [00:48:30]

Kautham Haran: That’s fine.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an easy life.

Kautham Haran: I think those are two different paths, though. And in my [00:48:35] opinion, if you’re going down that path where you’re trying to build a team with people who aren’t that interested [00:48:40] in improving themselves or just doing that, that kind of job, your systems should be in place [00:48:45] to make sure things are, for example, checklist based because these people aren’t going to sit there and have that attention to [00:48:50] detail because they don’t really care. So your business can go down two different paths. But from an operations standpoint, [00:48:55] you as the leaders within that practice, you should understand the profile of that individual when you’re hiring them, [00:49:00] because otherwise what you’ve got is that turnover where a front of house team member leaves, and then [00:49:05] you’re hiring locums, and then your costs are going up, but maybe correctly identifying [00:49:10] those individuals so that, okay, I can, if this person isn’t interested [00:49:15] in improving, how can I get it where I get a new person in quite relatively easily. Low barrier [00:49:20] to entry, they can pick up the job really easily. That means you need the systems in place to make [00:49:25] sure that person hits the ground running, and you don’t have a huge training period, which then is a drag on your operations [00:49:30] and your finances.

Adrian Dray: Also, I think if you if you’re going to hire either all of your team [00:49:35] or part of your team on that basis of, I just want a nurse to be a nurse, I just want a receptionist [00:49:40] to be a receptionist. Then don’t give too much weight of their to [00:49:45] their opinion for big changes. Mhm. Because that’s what we that we see. [00:49:50] And don’t get me wrong, I love Dental nurses, I love reception, I love all members of the team. [00:49:55] Right. But when you’re doing this big kind of change, you shouldn’t be thinking, oh, they’re going to kick off [00:50:00] and they’re going to get really upset. I was like, well, you’ve decided you just wanted them to fulfil that particular [00:50:05] role. And if they can’t deal with this change, you, you feel that in the short and maybe [00:50:10] most importantly, the long term, that’s going to have a material impact onto your business, [00:50:15] then you need to get people in that position that can do the job, but [00:50:20] that align with your vision and don’t give you hassle for it because what’s the point?

Payman Langroudi: Very [00:50:25] true, very true. Um, I want to move on to well, [00:50:30] before we move any further, what’s the worst thing about care stack software about. [00:50:35]

Kautham Haran: Care stack as a company or.

Payman Langroudi: Software software.

Kautham Haran: Software itself. [00:50:40] I think one thing that I’ve [00:50:45] noticed about Sestak is in our emphasis to listen [00:50:50] to customers and make sure everyone’s got a voice. [00:50:55] I think there are certain things that you can see within our product that we’ve tried to cater to potentially [00:51:00] too many people in the past, too many different, not everywhere, but in certain places. [00:51:05] I think sometimes when you think about like an iPhone, you know, it is the way it is, right? [00:51:10] And do we believe that our product is built in that way that we want it to, because [00:51:15] we know the way we’ve done it gives value to our customers. I think that’s probably something for me, myself, [00:51:20] looking at our software, I can see where it probably went in early days. We maybe [00:51:25] to land in a market, you do need to kind of have that flexibility. [00:51:30] So I think that’s definitely one thing. Maybe. And from an onboarding standpoint, if there’s [00:51:35] too many different ways of doing something, on the one hand, it’s flexibility. So you can cater for more people. [00:51:40] But on the other hand.

Payman Langroudi: It’s more complication.

Kautham Haran: Exactly.

Adrian Dray: It’s the problem of the plenty. Yes, [00:51:45] that’s that’s the the problem we have. And there are multiple ways to do things. [00:51:50] And if you’re trying to do a particular type of task, you might think [00:51:55] there’s way too many clicks to do this. But actually there’s another way that’s a lot quicker. But [00:52:00] we’ve, we’ve had to present the button [00:52:05] setup, whatever you want to call it, the UI in a way that that is able to [00:52:10] accommodate certain types of users who have come from a certain type of business. Because if [00:52:15] you ask most, most dentists on, on, on dentists, for dentists, and you said, [00:52:20] do you want so exactly as it is, but in the cloud, majority of them say, yes, [00:52:25] just minimum, just put that in the cloud.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Kautham Haran: But the thing is that happened [00:52:30] a lot. Yeah, when we first started.

Adrian Dray: But the reality is, is, is the way [00:52:35] that. So which is a good system, don’t get me wrong, but the way the SSO is set up, is [00:52:40] that the right way for the modern modern future dental practice? And [00:52:45] the reality is most people won’t be able to give a yes or no answer [00:52:50] to that. They don’t know. They just say, well, I just don’t like change. But you do like [00:52:55] innovation. Yeah, I like innovation. Changing innovation is the same thing. It’s just that [00:53:00] we have change is painful. Innovation is fluffy, but it’s the same process. [00:53:05] So I think that that is one of the things that we’ve in our in our efforts to be [00:53:10] attentive, right, and accommodating. We haven’t shot ourselves in [00:53:15] the foot. We’ve just had to adapt in the way that we develop in the future. [00:53:20]

Payman Langroudi: But there are trade offs, aren’t there? There are trade offs. It’s difficult to be the best product and [00:53:25] the cheapest, you know, things like that. Very obvious trade offs. Yeah. And here we are with this [00:53:30] particular trade off. Yeah. Well I think you’ll find I mean one thing you might not be aware of in [00:53:35] dental in general, is that the sort of huge [00:53:40] barriers to entry in every way? So, you know, [00:53:45] we’ve got regulatory issues. You’ve got regulatory issues obviously with data. Um, [00:53:50] getting a dentist to change behaviour is hard. But then on the [00:53:55] other end of it, that makes it easier because competitors find it [00:54:00] much harder to take your customers compared to other businesses, you know. You know, people [00:54:05] aren’t agile in changing software every three days. Um, even, even, [00:54:10] uh, you know, dental, dental materials, they get used to something they don’t want to change. And [00:54:15] so it’s one of those slow burn type businesses. Um, and, you know, I hate [00:54:20] regulatory, I hate it. And, you know, not that I’m at all involved [00:54:25] in it, but, you know, we’ve got people we spend loads of money on every time we’re trying to go to another country, [00:54:30] another regulatory nightmare. But I do reflect on the fact that it’s not a pizza shop [00:54:35] that my brother in law could set up next door to me if he wanted to, and [00:54:40] immediately take my business. It’s the regulatory is the best and the worst thing about it, [00:54:45] and the slow sales cycle that you’re discussing is also one of the best [00:54:50] and worst things about dentistry. I want to get on to the [00:54:55] sort of mental position that the market’s [00:55:00] now got for care Stack, which I suppose, Adrian, you’re really responsible for what’s happened [00:55:05] there.

Payman Langroudi: As I say, it feels like you’ve been around a long time and what you’ve done with [00:55:10] events, um, it makes you just feel like as, as an outsider that, [00:55:15] you know, these are people I need to listen to. I need to pay attention to this company. [00:55:20] Um, and we’ve discussed many times events. Let’s go to events. Yeah, [00:55:25] we’ve discussed many times that events need a shake up. You know, that they [00:55:30] haven’t changed. I mean, I’ve been in dentistry 25 years, 30 years or something, and [00:55:35] they basically haven’t changed very much. Um, and [00:55:40] I think Covid brought it into like sharper sort of focus that if you’re going [00:55:45] to leave your house, it needs to be worth it to leave your house. [00:55:50] Otherwise you can just go, you know, and there’s a magic about, let’s [00:55:55] face it, whatever AI comes in or whatever, there is a magic about [00:56:00] breaking bread and having lunch together, right? The AI is never going to replace. And for [00:56:05] instance, when you were doing the Rory um, thing, um, massive, wonderful [00:56:10] innovation, right? Bringing someone like him to dentistry. Um, Rory [00:56:15] Sutherland the, the, you know, you could have just gone to YouTube and watched a lot of [00:56:20] Rory, you know, but being in the same room as him, there’s a magic there. Not to mention he [00:56:25] sort of made his content more Dental. Mhm. So tell me your thought process around that. Do [00:56:30] you share what I’m saying about enough of hotels and conference centres and.

Adrian Dray: Oh, it’s. [00:56:35]

Payman Langroudi: Turning up as either James Bond or or Spider-Man [00:56:40] at the socials. You know, like.

Adrian Dray: It comes down to it comes down to a feeling that I [00:56:45] have. And I think you’ll you will agree with this. Dentistry is obviously a very small world. [00:56:50] The behaviours with it, the closest that I’ve ever experienced [00:56:55] is being back at high school.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Adrian Dray: Because you have the same cliques, right? [00:57:00] Yeah. You’ve got the, the, the ones that are going for the awards, the prom king, prom queen, [00:57:05] the popular kids. Right.

Kautham Haran: Did you grow up in the UK? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which [00:57:10] is a lot of American TV.

Adrian Dray: It’s not my fault you were alone at [00:57:15] school, right? I actually had friends.

Payman Langroudi: Go [00:57:20] on.

Adrian Dray: Homecoming, but I. And then you [00:57:25] would have, like, the anti-establishment. Yeah, right, kids. And then you would have, like, the real, [00:57:30] like, nerdy Do you have the bullies? Bullies. So you have all [00:57:35] of these these these these different these different cliques. And the way I survived [00:57:40] high school is I didn’t really belong to any particular clique.

Payman Langroudi: I just everyone thinks they’re that cat. But [00:57:45] you know.

Adrian Dray: I moved between.

Payman Langroudi: All of them. Not, not.

Adrian Dray: The, not the bullies. Yeah, but but [00:57:50] I just thought.

Payman Langroudi: Where did you go to school?

Adrian Dray: So I went to a private school in Devon up until [00:57:55] year eight. Year end of year eight. And then I went to a community college in North [00:58:00] Devon. So I’ve seen the private and the non private combination. Yeah. Got [00:58:05] bullied massively in my first year of community college. But um but yeah, I was able to [00:58:10] survive, you know, just understanding that social kind of thing. And you know what it’s like, right? It’s, it’s once [00:58:15] a year or it’s a couple of times a year, there’ll be that kid who’s got the best party and [00:58:20] everyone’s talking about going to that party.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Adrian Dray: And afterwards, what happened at [00:58:25] that party?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that kid’s share price goes up.

Adrian Dray: Right, right. And what actually happens in that party, it it might [00:58:30] not necessarily even be that exciting, right?

Payman Langroudi: It’s the conversation, the hype.

Adrian Dray: On it, the hype after [00:58:35] it, the people who weren’t there, all this kind of thing. So I, [00:58:40] I was realising that this was happening right when, when we go into the [00:58:45] trade shows, it’s the same old thing, right? Whether you go there as an attendee, it’s worse if you’re a supplier [00:58:50] because you feel like you’re being robbed basically in front of.

Payman Langroudi: You, risking your. Yeah.

Adrian Dray: Um, [00:58:55] but the I, I thought, well, let’s, let’s try [00:59:00] a different, different type of event. And before I put on [00:59:05] for the doers, which happened on 19th of September last year, 2025, [00:59:10] I had started listening to Rory Sutherland about behaviour psychology, [00:59:15] about marketing and advertising. Actually joined his masterclasses, online masterclasses. [00:59:20]

Payman Langroudi: So you had.

Adrian Dray: Masters? Yeah. So I was speaking, I’ll say speaking, I was, I was, I [00:59:25] was listening, learning from Rory as part of this online class. And every month we have a call with Rory. [00:59:30] And that was really how I was able to get in front of him, to talk to him about [00:59:35] dentistry and try and see, would you be up for coming to an event? Because he’s I mean, you know, he’s [00:59:40] a he was the vice chair of Ogilvy, right? So he’s his schedule is so [00:59:45] packed, but I managed to get enough intrigue there for [00:59:50] him to say, yes, I will come and do an interview, you know, in front of a live [00:59:55] studio audience, um, for dentistry. And that was the, [01:00:00] the, the event was just going to be getting people to just listening to Rory. Right. [01:00:05] That was it. I was going to do an evening thing, get people to come in and then they’d leave. And I thought, [01:00:10] no, maybe there’s, there’s more, more to this. Um, and so what I [01:00:15] wanted to do is build the whole event, not around [01:00:20] our product, but around a particular ideal. And [01:00:25] the ideal is that there are two types of groups in dentistry. [01:00:30] Actually many other industries. But in dentistry, you’ve got the ones who love the status quo, [01:00:35] who are quite happily happy to push down anyone who wants to try something new, right? [01:00:40] We call them the Moaners. Okay. And then you’ve got the others [01:00:45] who, even though the Moaners exist, they still are bold. They dare to be different. They want [01:00:50] a better dentistry. They do that publicly. They do that behind the scenes. And we [01:00:55] call them the doers. Right. This bias towards action. Now, the commercial [01:01:00] angle on this is that if we’re able to host an event that is talking [01:01:05] about those themes, then people who are there identify as that [01:01:10] and therefore are more likely to maybe take a bet on a new product like care stack [01:01:15] and voice stack, right? Because it takes guts and you’re gambling and all sorts [01:01:20] to try something new.

Adrian Dray: It’s very easy to to pick IBM. Right. That’s the the old [01:01:25] adage. So having a having an event that was all around that and [01:01:30] then bringing in different people that are able to talk about the mindset, they’re able to talk about their [01:01:35] particular stories and present that without us even showing our product. [01:01:40] That was a bit of a risk. It was an unsanctioned event, right? It was [01:01:45] this was like off book. So, um, but we actually, [01:01:50] from a commercial perspective, we close more business on that than the trade shows [01:01:55] we had been to that year combined. So for [01:02:00] us, it just showed an in an outstanding [01:02:05] point is that these decision makers want [01:02:10] to get to know their providers well and be aligned on [01:02:15] the same things, which is we want innovation. We want the, the mindset, [01:02:20] the skill set, the strategies to try and help our teams move, to [01:02:25] help us move, to have those conversations internally that we can have because [01:02:30] we have this internal bias to action. Let’s stop talking about it. Let’s actually do it. [01:02:35] And that’s what we wanted to arm our audience members with. That’s what Rory [01:02:40] is really good at, because he’s the king about thinking differently on things and reframing problems. [01:02:45] Um, and it worked incredibly, incredibly well. And then for us [01:02:50] from a, from a mental monopoly of fame perspective, which is what you need, particularly [01:02:55] when you’re a new product. It just, it just took us to the moon.

Payman Langroudi: I couldn’t [01:03:00] make it because it was the first day of my son’s university.

Adrian Dray: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Even though I had made it through [01:03:05] the process to come to it. Yes. But for people who weren’t there. And I [01:03:10] want to get on to that, by the way, I mean, there is a magic to events. There is a it’s a [01:03:15] nightmare. And at the end of the day, how many people can you have at an event? And, you know, by [01:03:20] the way, I’m doing event coming up. Yes. Um, the nightmare of an event versus [01:03:25] the magic of an event because it has. [01:03:30] Oh, we might have 400 people, but I put a post out on social today [01:03:35] that got 1000 views this morning. Yeah. And so it [01:03:40] doesn’t make actual ROI sense and brain time sense. And [01:03:45] yet in another totally immeasurable way, it makes total sense. Yeah. So tell [01:03:50] me about the if for people who weren’t there, what, what, what are a couple of, [01:03:55] um, Rory insights into dentistry?

Adrian Dray: Well, I would say that Rory [01:04:00] insights happen right from the preparation part because I asked him about [01:04:05] how do I, how do I make this a standout event? Because this is completely new. Yeah, it’s from a company. [01:04:10] So they’re probably gonna think, oh, we’re going to get sold to for a whole afternoon. How do I do this? [01:04:15] And his insight was make it application only. Mhm. [01:04:20] Now this comes from a topic which he talks about quite often, [01:04:25] which is you want to add a level of, of frictions, often to a, to a [01:04:30] process. Because when people do this, they feel that there’s a status upgrade. [01:04:35] Now he gives an example of, um, uh, cake mix, [01:04:40] right? So when this first came out in the 70s, um, the [01:04:45] cake mix was, was made in such a way that all you had to do was add water. That was it. [01:04:50] Put it in the oven. Done. And it failed. It didn’t go [01:04:55] through. You think that’s, that’s so easy, right? But people just felt like they hadn’t really made [01:05:00] a cake. So then they changed it and they just they put a few words, [01:05:05] just add an egg. And then it, it went because there was a, there was a level [01:05:10] of action that was put there. There was a level of friction there that people had bought in. And [01:05:15] then they feel like there’s internally there’s this kind of status elevation by doing that. [01:05:20]

Adrian Dray: So the first thing we did was we made an application only now. Also, I wanted to make sure there was [01:05:25] the right split of audience in the room, which is important because if I put tickets [01:05:30] out to see Rory Sutherland and meet Rory Sutherland guaranteed it would have been just [01:05:35] a load of associates and students who’s not my target audience. So [01:05:40] I was also making sure that we had the right, the right mix, right mix in [01:05:45] the room. So starting off with Rory’s insight was that, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen another [01:05:50] event that’s done application only. And that’s all I’m going to do before the doers moving forward. The [01:05:55] other things that he was showing, which was, which was [01:06:00] interesting during during, I was actually looking back on the interview recently, insights from [01:06:05] Rory. He spoke about [01:06:10] the, the potency of other people who [01:06:15] love their dentists. Mhm. Right. And he made a link towards [01:06:20] Royal Mail. Now, Royal Mail invests a lot of money into their brand. A few years [01:06:25] ago, quite a lot, probably about ten years ago. What they couldn’t understand [01:06:30] is that whilst they put all of this investment into their brand, they were [01:06:35] still part of the country where the satisfaction rate in Royal Mail was [01:06:40] going down. Even though as well they had a higher delivery rate as well. [01:06:45] But then they would find certain areas of the country where.

Payman Langroudi: The opposite.

Adrian Dray: Was true. The opposite [01:06:50] was. So the delivery rate was worse. But the interest in Royal Mail was much was [01:06:55] much higher. Right. The satisfaction rate in Royal Mail was much higher when they investigated [01:07:00] it. The. The. It all came down to how much they liked their postie, postman, [01:07:05] postman or postwoman. Right. Right. So that [01:07:10] was that was the weird thing, right? They can they don’t mind if there’s a couple of days late, but they. When the [01:07:15] postman comes, they. Morning. How are you doing? How’s the kids? Right. All this [01:07:20] kind of thing. Now, he went to a finance director and said, you know, we need to invest more in this. [01:07:25] They think he’s always got to do is deliver the letters. Who cares? But that [01:07:30] was that was a really important, important thing. He calls it the front, the doorman fallacy, [01:07:35] where you have a really nice hotel and it’s had a doorman at [01:07:40] the front who knows everyone who comes, comes across, knows all the local gangsters, knows all the [01:07:45] police, like all those the homeless guys. Now, if you had, um, [01:07:50] one of these big consultancy firms like McKinsey that went into that hole, the first thing they would say is, well, [01:07:55] is this a doorman to get an electric door, put a CCTV camera? Yeah.

Adrian Dray: That’s it. And [01:08:00] what they would. And then you save the money on his on his salary. But then later [01:08:05] on they realise well the, the, the rate has gone down. So [01:08:10] having those kind of things which you cannot necessarily quantify [01:08:15] is a really important thing to look at. And when you’ve got a split in the audience between DSO, [01:08:20] Leaders and independent practice owners, this was really this was really true because [01:08:25] now independent practice owners are starting to look into their data more than ever, right? They can [01:08:30] go into ChatGPT, they can get a McKinsey style response to [01:08:35] a particular problem. But what they’re forgetting is what makes them unique and [01:08:40] what is a superpower for them, which is they’re a family run business, and that probably has a higher potency [01:08:45] rate than whatever ChatGPT ChatGPT spits out or [01:08:50] a consultant spits out the same way you can save money here. So that was one [01:08:55] of his, his main things that he was, he was looking at.

Payman Langroudi: What was I mean, how does the dormant fallacy translate [01:09:00] to dentistry? Is that the you the way your receptionist acts or whatever?

Adrian Dray: Exactly. So for [01:09:05] example, you know, I showed invoice stack just before we went, we went live and [01:09:10] I actually saw Rory yesterday and, um, at an event and he goes, he goes, I’m [01:09:15] plugging voice at for you everywhere. I was like, I know Rory, I’m getting lawyers called me. I’m getting finance [01:09:20] people like, can you tell them it’s just for tennis?

Payman Langroudi: You’ve you’ve become one of his stories.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, exactly. [01:09:25] Right. So, um, yeah, but you have to go into other industries like, yeah, okay. But it was just [01:09:30] focus on, on dentistry now. But what he was, what he was saying [01:09:35] is what he likes about voice stack is that it’s able to show you what’s [01:09:40] called potential opportunities. Okay, this is what happens is that say someone [01:09:45] moves into the local area, okay, they’ve driven past your practice and they see an Invisalign [01:09:50] sign, or they know that you do implants. And the previous practice, they were they know that was one [01:09:55] of the things they were talking about. Whatever the story is, that means that person calls your practice [01:10:00] and makes an inquiry. Okay, now, does every one of those inquiries [01:10:05] on that first call turn into a Botox appointment? No, no. Right. And there [01:10:10] might be multiple reasons for it. It It could be the receptionist doesn’t have the right telephone handling skills [01:10:15] for that particular type of call, or just generally, it could be that they’re distracted because they’re dealing with a patient [01:10:20] right in front of them. It could be they’re not educating the person correctly on the type of treatment. There’s [01:10:25] a whole multitude of reasons why that person didn’t book on the initial call. What [01:10:30] voice act does is it analyses that call and sees [01:10:35] this is a new appointment opportunity here. It didn’t get booked. They spoke [01:10:40] about implants. What if we had an opportunity to give them a call back and voice [01:10:45] that highlights those particular calls. It scores the probability rates that if you call this person [01:10:50] back, and if you touched on these particular types of points, there’s [01:10:55] an 80, 60, 70% chance of getting them booked back in.

Payman Langroudi: Well, now and then it [01:11:00] alerts the team to call these guys first.

Adrian Dray: Exactly. So what practices are realising now [01:11:05] is that when they have voice that before they had absolutely no understanding or idea And [01:11:10] it’s not their fault because the dumb phone systems that they’ve been using, even the AI ones, weren’t.

Payman Langroudi: Totally [01:11:15] separate to me as far as package wise.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, you can have it integrated or separately. [01:11:20]

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Adrian Dray: Um, so now what they’re saying is like, right. So [01:11:25] our practice received, let’s say 100 opportunity calls, existing [01:11:30] or new patients that are calling up, talking about, talking about treatments with an intention to book an appointment, [01:11:35] right? Not changing the appointment, intention to book an appointment. And of that, we [01:11:40] didn’t book 80% of them. Why not? And [01:11:45] now they can look at look at all of those. But it’s not just the case of thinking, oh crap, we’ve got a [01:11:50] massive problem here. The system is now nudging a treatment coordinator or someone else [01:11:55] to call that individual back. And now that conversion [01:12:00] rate is going up. Now the there’s two things that work really well here. First of [01:12:05] all, that’s reverse benchmarking because no other practice is doing that, because they don’t have a system in [01:12:10] place that actually picks up that opportunity anyway. The second thing is, [01:12:15] is that the potency level from a patient experience is so high for [01:12:20] people getting that type of callback, right. So imagine, imagine Mrs. Jones has [01:12:25] made the call. She’s, uh, heard that one of her friends has had dental implants [01:12:30] done at the practice and thought, you know, I’ve got, you know, anniversary dinner coming [01:12:35] up in a few months and I’m a bit worried. Don’t have the confidence eating into a steak or whatever. I really want to whatever [01:12:40] their sob story is around implants. Okay. And they call up whether [01:12:45] it’s price, maybe it’s something else. They don’t they don’t book in. Now, they [01:12:50] spoke to Julie on the front desk. Now, uh, Donna, [01:12:55] the TCO calls back that patient potential patient [01:13:00] and says, oh, Mrs. Jones, she spoke to Julie yesterday about this. I don’t think that we covered everything [01:13:05] on finance for you. I just wondered if you know. So you make an informed [01:13:10] choice. I get to see, even from the conversation data and speaking with practices, [01:13:15] practices, all of them have got a story where the patient is absolutely [01:13:20] over the moon from a patient experience perspective that they had that type of [01:13:25] call.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. I think as in the second person knows what happened in the first call.

Kautham Haran: And [01:13:30] you can even take it further there. I think I’ve seen some practices who do really well with this. When a patient turns around [01:13:35] and says, I’m off to the Bahamas for a, for a couple of months and I’m coming back and you get that transcript pulled [01:13:40] through and you understand it. And then you use that when the when the front of house or the TCO then [01:13:45] calls that patient and says and speaks to them next. Oh, I hope your trip to the Bahamas was. Well, yeah, that difference, [01:13:50] I think in you keep you’re keeping the ethos of what your practice is good at, you know, from [01:13:55] the dormant fallacy kind of idea, all of these things on what’s the core parts of our business family run [01:14:00] this kind of thing, making sure we’re doing right by the patients, but then you’re getting your systems to come in place [01:14:05] and just almost amplify the things that you’re good at, and that is [01:14:10] working really well for you. I think those two things tying together is the key. The system.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:14:15] there’s a CRM built in so that the team can see what’s going on [01:14:20] with respect to these.

Adrian Dray: Two things, we integrate with a few CRM. So Boxley is one of them. We’ve got [01:14:25] go high level. There’s a few others and then grow as well. Um, [01:14:30] but we do have at that a specific feature that if, if the [01:14:35] individuals just want to have a look at that potential opportunities that come in that they can just focus [01:14:40] on that. Um, the other thing that that voice stack has been really good for and has the same thing that Rory [01:14:45] was talking about is missed call response, um, is [01:14:50] like front and centre. So every practice is going to have missed calls. Okay. I spoke to a practice [01:14:55] last week. Their answer rate was 25%. [01:15:00] Wow. Okay. But they responded to every missed call. Okay. [01:15:05] In under an hour. It was. It was just weird. I said, you’re spending more time [01:15:10] on responding to missed calls than you are answering them now. We there was there was some reasons internally [01:15:15] for that. We’ve helped them with some features and this kind of thing. I checked their stats yesterday. They’ve gone to 75%. [01:15:20] Right. But the thing I said that you should take stock and you [01:15:25] know, commend them.

Payman Langroudi: Number one we’re measuring the missed calls.

Adrian Dray: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. Go on. Yeah.

Adrian Dray: But the [01:15:30] the thing is, is that I can um when you’re the fact you’re responding [01:15:35] to these missed calls at all is, is great and you’re doing it so quickly. [01:15:40] If you put yourself in the patient’s shoes, they don’t know what percentage of you know [01:15:45] you’re answering. You’re missing. They just know that.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the situation? They were understaffed.

Adrian Dray: They [01:15:50] they had a whole new reception team. And they had one receptionist. They had given that there were only a 1 or [01:15:55] 2 surgery practice. They had the same call volume as a five surgery practice I’d spoken [01:16:00] to the day before. They just got a lot of calls.

Payman Langroudi: For interesting practice.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, but [01:16:05] it might just be it could be just the area. It could be the fact that people were ringing around for NHS. There’s lots of different things [01:16:10] for this. But the, the, the, the point that Rory was saying is that he said, [01:16:15] if you put your consumer hat on, how many times have you had [01:16:20] this experience where you’ve called a big company or even a small company you’ve not got through and they’ve called you back? [01:16:25] Doesn’t happen. You just think, I haven’t got through to E today. I’ve got to call them back. Yeah. Right. [01:16:30] So the potency level or the being an exception in that patient’s mind is [01:16:35] so high because they think, oh, wow. Thank you for calling me back. That’s great. Add that [01:16:40] to potential opportunities where it’s highly personalised. Then it’s even more of a winner.

Payman Langroudi: Right?

Kautham Haran: Yeah. [01:16:45] And I think taking from that, it’s I’ve seen some practices that have done this really well when [01:16:50] they’re looking at that scenario where, for example, their call rate is so low, they then [01:16:55] have done this thing where within their teams, they’ve said, how do we address this as [01:17:00] a team and now bringing the team in to be part of that process. I always use the analogy of, um, [01:17:05] you know, Ikea furniture because you’re building it yourself. You then have more [01:17:10] care for the furniture. And in that same way, by getting team members to then address the [01:17:15] problem and be part of the solution and help define that solution, the uptake and the change [01:17:20] is completely ownership. Yeah, complete ownership of doing [01:17:25] it themselves and understanding. And because they’ve helped to develop that process, they, they think, oh, [01:17:30] I can’t not do it because I was the one who even helped to suggest this.

Adrian Dray: And when you add that voice that does [01:17:35] call scoring as well, so it looks at the individuals calls, it splits it up into different [01:17:40] areas and says, you’re great at this, but you weren’t good at this.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the back end of that? [01:17:45] You could like voice to text to LM.

Kautham Haran: Yeah, yeah.

Adrian Dray: Then presents [01:17:50] it back into a UI.

Payman Langroudi: Nightmare software is man. Because because give it another eight months [01:17:55] and the guys AI is going to call the practices AI.

Adrian Dray: That’s already [01:18:00] happening, isn’t it? This is a brilliant story, right? So this is this is why I’m I’m a little bit even [01:18:05] though we are bringing out our own like AI voice bot receptionists, [01:18:10] we have to as a, as an industry, we have to be exceptionally careful [01:18:15] with this. Um, so let me give you a quick story first [01:18:20] and then then go into the warning. There are practices out in the US that have [01:18:25] an AI receptionist voice receptionists taking calls out of hours, [01:18:30] and they’ve just picked whatever’s first the market or got the best ad campaign about [01:18:35] Dental receptionists. And they’re coming after a couple of weeks, [01:18:40] they’re going all on Facebook and saying, this is amazing. It’s booked so many like Invisalign [01:18:45] consultations. I had no idea there was so much interest at 2 a.m.. Right. [01:18:50] What it is, right, is that their competitor down the road knows they’re using an AI receptionist [01:18:55] has built their own AI patient to go and phone up, book [01:19:00] all of these fake consultations.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Adrian Dray: Yeah. So goddamn, [01:19:05] how petty is that? Now, whether that’s going to work in the [01:19:10] US or in the UK, I don’t know whether that’s going to have the same situation. But the warning is [01:19:15] here is that it does not take much effort. You don’t need any coding experience [01:19:20] to design. What is an AI Dental receptionist? Right. There’s [01:19:25] so many that are hitting the market. Yeah. The problem that we have is the same problem we had [01:19:30] when those hoverboards came out. You remember those two wheeled hoverboards, right? It didn’t start [01:19:35] with Samsung or big name brand bringing out a hoverboard. It was [01:19:40] cheap hoverboards that were being drop shipped from Taiwan and China. Yeah. Then they were [01:19:45] starting to be house fires, people getting having accidents. And that whole product line died straight [01:19:50] away because it was bottom. Top. Mhm. Right. We have we’re going to have [01:19:55] we’re going to have the same problem with AI voice receptionists, because everyone’s running to AI [01:20:00] because they’re thinking AI from an efficiency perspective. They’re not seeing AI from a value perspective. [01:20:05] And this is bad for even small dental practices should always [01:20:10] look at value. The corporates, although they shouldn’t, they they typically look at [01:20:15] an efficiency perspective because they have the restraints of being a pee backed often. Right. But [01:20:20] you know as well having a premium product, right. It’s premium for a reason. It [01:20:25] gives value for, for a reason. So you’re not why would you want to gamble with [01:20:30] a potential patient who could be dropping 30 K on a full arch or [01:20:35] very complex treatment in the hands of a, of a robot.

Payman Langroudi: Because the robots are better [01:20:40] at it than the human that that would be at that point. I mean, we’ve got a chatbot is better than most of our [01:20:45] people. And that never makes a mistake. When, when, when they it’s text, right. When they send [01:20:50] that text, they certainly we found out there’s only 27 questions that enlightened ever gets asked. So [01:20:55] she knows how to answer those 27. I’m not saying it’s an easy thing to [01:21:00] organise, but that is the moment you would do it right when when the AI answers better than the human, [01:21:05] I bet there’s a whole lot of, um, data protection nightmares in it too. Oh yeah. [01:21:10]

Adrian Dray: Because a lot of these AI receptionists that came, that came out and actually look. [01:21:15] Yeah. Um, last year, right. I was getting a spike of calls [01:21:20] to my, to my GDPR consultancy. Right. Adrian, I’ve just, I’ve just [01:21:25] got this. I’m not going to mention the name of it. Um, just got this AI receptionist that’s being pushed out on, [01:21:30] on, uh, in Facebook at the moment. Um, and it’s, [01:21:35] I’ve got a data breach. It’s starting to provide the details of the previous patient. [01:21:40] Well, right.

Payman Langroudi: So just someone asked it. Yeah, [01:21:45] it was too.

Kautham Haran: It doesn’t have the safeguarding in there to do it. And it will. [01:21:50]

Adrian Dray: Yeah. Because I was, I was getting a bit of pushback. Right. And being challenged online. It’s like, Adrian, [01:21:55] you know, you’re the face of voice tech in the UK. This AI phone system is [01:22:00] analysing where’s your voice spot? We’ve got all these other people. Where’s your one? And I was like giving our guys hassle [01:22:05] for this. And I just don’t look bad, man. And then they, they, um, they told [01:22:10] me it’s like, well, it’s not harder than you think. You’ve got complex treatment plans, you’ve got NHS, [01:22:15] you’ve got potential safeguarding. This is not easy to push out. For some calls [01:22:20] it might be straightforward. You start bringing in some complexity and it starts doing all sorts of crazy stuff, [01:22:25] including data breaches. So ours is coming out soon. I won’t [01:22:30] give dates, but um, but yeah, I can tell you that that the significant amount [01:22:35] of effort has been put in so that it gives a proper experience and importantly, it passes over [01:22:40] to the right person when it’s required.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s move on to the [01:22:45] darker part of the pod. We like to talk about mistakes. Obviously, [01:22:50] you guys aren’t clinicians, So it’s not going to be as stark. But what would you [01:22:55] call your biggest mistakes in at work?

Kautham Haran: I [01:23:00] think for me, I think, um [01:23:05] building teams is always hard. I think you learn a lot. [01:23:10] I mean, if you think about the different types of people that you come across, and I think sometimes [01:23:15] making difficult decisions around team members and sometimes [01:23:20] believing in the best in some of them as well. Now I’ve always got this, you know, [01:23:25] people come from all sorts of backgrounds. They come in, you know, they go through an interview process and you bring them in. But [01:23:30] at the end of the day, if you’ve got a high performing team, you have a duty of care to those high performers [01:23:35] that you don’t keep low performers within the team because [01:23:40] otherwise it becomes a toxic environment and doing that. So I think learning that lesson too late. [01:23:45] I know I’ve put potentially stress on the teams and the high performers without, [01:23:50] you know, needing to tackle those probably difficult decisions.

Payman Langroudi: Not firing people [01:23:55] quick enough. I think you’re saying.

Kautham Haran: I think hiring slow but firing fast is [01:24:00] definitely some a lesson that whilst I’ve been at chaos that, you know, it’s something I’ve learned. [01:24:05] I mean, I’ll be honest, when I joined chaos, I think on my second day, I was told to build a team of ten people [01:24:10] and not having been in implementation, not having been in Dental. And then I think building [01:24:15] teams fast, you then realise, hmm, okay, should I’ve done that a bit slower and picked and [01:24:20] you know, and did it slightly differently. So making that decision to, to move faster, [01:24:25] I think, you know, and probably when I have made those decisions, I’ve also gone out and probably [01:24:30] apologised to my team because I think you should sit there as a potential leader within an organisation [01:24:35] and admit the mistakes that you’ve made, because if you have caused duress on the team, it’s [01:24:40] those guys who are there to perform and you sit above and you’re meant to guide them. But it tells [01:24:45] us all that we’re kind of human and we can make those mistakes. So for me, I think that’s the one that probably [01:24:50] frustrates me a bit about my experience. But everything is a learning.

Payman Langroudi: People talk about business [01:24:55] should be more like a pro sports team than a family.

Kautham Haran: And I’m a big [01:25:00] fan of that.

Payman Langroudi: But you do feel like it’s a family. We’re a family here. We’re working together, we care about [01:25:05] each other and all of that. And so when you mix those two things up, it becomes hard to fire people. [01:25:10]

Kautham Haran: Yeah, I think so. But I think also, once you start having a high performing team, it becomes a bit easier because [01:25:15] the standard is set and I use the analogy.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of polices each other.

Kautham Haran: Exactly. And I think it’s that [01:25:20] kind of thing where I use the analogy from the movie 300, where I think they’re all meant to [01:25:25] lift their shield and cover the person next to them. If you bring in a team member that can’t lift that shield, [01:25:30] the others will be the ones at your door saying, hang on, this person’s not not up to scratch. And [01:25:35] I think that for me is probably a lesson that I’ve learned that, you know, once you’ve got good people in your team, they [01:25:40] can even tell you, you know, I don’t think this person’s cut out for it. But that’s a, there’s [01:25:45] a very fine line there because that can be a toxic work environment. So how do you police that? [01:25:50] How do you make sure when you’ve got young members in the team and they’re all early in their careers or growing the [01:25:55] human beings, they’re going to make mistakes. How do you manage that? How do you make sure everyone’s [01:26:00] singing from the same hymn sheet? And how do you cover those things? Because once you get a toxic environment, [01:26:05] um, I’ve seen that with teams, you kind of almost have to cut it all out and start again, which is [01:26:10] not easy to do. And I know that’s something that has gone through as a company, not necessarily in the UK, but in [01:26:15] I think in the US. They did that at some point. And I think that’s a lesson I’ve learned from Abbey, which [01:26:20] he told me very early on. Yeah, that was needed.

Adrian Dray: So Abbey is.

Kautham Haran: Right. And I still fell into that mistake. [01:26:25] And it’s frustrating. The good thing is he doesn’t he doesn’t really say, I told you so. No, I think [01:26:30] I think from that side, I think I didn’t I didn’t take that into consideration enough, but I’ve learned my lessons.

Payman Langroudi: Adrian. [01:26:35] Biggest mistake.

Adrian Dray: Plural or singular? I [01:26:40] think the the biggest mistake that [01:26:45] I have made since my Kazakh journey is [01:26:50] taking myself too seriously at times. [01:26:55]

Payman Langroudi: Oh yeah.

Adrian Dray: Because, you know, when we first came, I launched this with Abby. [01:27:00] We were on the road and we were. And we were very much the face, the personality [01:27:05] behind the product.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Adrian Dray: Now Abby is now mostly in the US. Um, [01:27:10] and it’s it’s me. Right. I’ve become the more of the name [01:27:15] and the face around the product. And my job is to make it famous and make it [01:27:20] popular and to be a thorn in the side to my competitors and calling out their issues [01:27:25] without mentioning their names. Right. These these are things. And you get so involved in that, that [01:27:30] creative process when things don’t go your [01:27:35] way or when mistakes happen, it’s not of a case that it’s a it’s a black [01:27:40] mark or a smudge on the Kazakh name. It’s so easy to take it as that’s a. [01:27:45] That’s a smudge against my name. Now, as soon as that happens, I [01:27:50] realise I start to lose my temper, and when I lose my temper and I become negative, [01:27:55] I take it out on cow. I take it out on Samantha. I take it out on the teams and [01:28:00] I have to take myself out of the country often just to. [01:28:05] Just to chill out. So the way that I’ve been able to, to change [01:28:10] that now is I, I’m stepping a little bit back [01:28:15] from just being the person who is who’s, who is talking on stage and [01:28:20] all these kind of things because you’ve got to know cow. Now you can see why I was like, we need [01:28:25] to have cow on the podcast because he has so much insight.

Adrian Dray: He articulates on items a lot better than I do. [01:28:30] And it’s not a case that I want cow to take the heat. Sometimes it’s a case of that there’s [01:28:35] more to this from a personality perspective than Adrian Dray, right? [01:28:40] And I don’t say that in an arrogant way. It’s just the way the chips have fallen with this. Um, [01:28:45] uh, but that’s probably the, the biggest thing. And, and, you know, the way, [01:28:50] the way this probably happened the most was last [01:28:55] year, uh, in, uh, dentist for dentist group. [01:29:00] They had an anonymous posting feature, anonymous comments feature and [01:29:05] there was conversations around care stack positive and negative. And then it just, [01:29:10] it was just a tirade of negative comments. And then it started to go against me personally, right? [01:29:15] Things like Adrian’s gone from helping protecting businesses [01:29:20] now to destroying them, right? Which is like, where’s this come from? It’s like, oh, this is it. He’s [01:29:25] just, he’s given free GDPR advice for, for years. [01:29:30] Um, and now to, you know, now only just to go and push, push a product. I was [01:29:35] like, I was doing GDPR way before he was even a thought, right, for the UK market. [01:29:40] And that really hit me. I remember sending screenshots to Cao and Sham, which I shouldn’t [01:29:45] send screenshots of. I’ll get killed for that. It was only a bit about me. Um, and it was anonymous. Um. [01:29:50]

Payman Langroudi: How are you on that site in the first place?

Adrian Dray: How? Yeah, because years of [01:29:55] giving free GDPR advice. That’s that’s honorary honorary member. Yeah. But [01:30:00] what what I later found out is that there are individuals who have a personal [01:30:05] beef with me. Were getting other people to post pretending to [01:30:10] be clients.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, anonymous post. Right.

Adrian Dray: Right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Adrian Dray: Um, [01:30:15] and I, I let them win. I let them take, take my peace of mind. [01:30:20] So now I just don’t care. I like now I view myself as a gladiator in the Colosseum, [01:30:25] which all Dental suppliers should. Right. And the audience are in the Colosseum. [01:30:30] That’s dentistry. So we are there to fight. It’s supposed to be a bloodbath. So when these things pop [01:30:35] up now, I don’t take it so seriously. It’s like, well, this is the game.

Payman Langroudi: But you’ve been guilty of taking it too [01:30:40] personally.

Adrian Dray: Yeah.

Kautham Haran: Massively so. I think on that, Adrian, I can’t give you enough credit for managing that, to be honest, [01:30:45] because the rest of us, we’ve come into dentistry. Obviously I want to be here to stay. But [01:30:50] given your longevity within this market, I think that kind of pressure where people associate your [01:30:55] name with Kessock, I think sitting there and if you’re getting these personal digs, that’s not, you know, [01:31:00] if Kessock doesn’t work or anything like this, the rest of us can walk away. But for you, I think there [01:31:05] is a significantly more risk, you know, higher risk that you’ve taken on that. That’s not easy as a person. And I think it’s [01:31:10] strength to Adrian’s character to be able to kind of manage that and also admit that [01:31:15] you were a nightmare to deal with in those scenarios when it was awful. I’ll be honest, but I [01:31:20] wouldn’t have wanted to be in your shoes, and I give you credit for that. Thanks. To get through that.

Adrian Dray: This [01:31:25] is recorded. Yeah. I’m going to play that back to you.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you’re a heart on your sleeve [01:31:30] kind of guy. Yeah. Again, it’s the best thing about you as well. Um it’s you know what, [01:31:35] the one thing I’m learning from this pod is I should spend more time on Facebook. I haven’t been.

Adrian Dray: There. You don’t [01:31:40] want to sit there.

Payman Langroudi: For a long, long, long time. I [01:31:45] was looking at my for some reason, my phone gave me my son’s screen time [01:31:50] for whatever, you know, and I thought he was like, I don’t know, two hours, 40. And [01:31:55] then I looked at my own one and I said, oh, you’re down like 24% from last week [01:32:00] at seven hours. I was like, what, seven hours? Um, [01:32:05] another social platform. I don’t know if I could manage, man.

Adrian Dray: Well, I think it’s good. You [01:32:10] know, it’s good to be able to see what’s being said.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Adrian Dray: But also taking a lot [01:32:15] of it with a pinch, pinch of salt, particularly when people are.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve had my moments on on for Dental. Yeah, [01:32:20] for sure. But I just I don’t bother with it with, with Facebook anymore. No, I’m more [01:32:25] the other, other direction. Let’s move on to our final questions. Fancy [01:32:30] dinner party. Three guests, dead or alive. Who’s going first? [01:32:35]

Adrian Dray: You go first.

Kautham Haran: Okay. For me, I think [01:32:40] Obama is one. I think Michelle.

Payman Langroudi: What’s funny about. [01:32:45]

Kautham Haran: It, to be honest, I think as an orator, he’s [01:32:50] the best, I think. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Even better than Clinton and Blair, man, which I didn’t think was possible.

Kautham Haran: I think [01:32:55] the way he speaks, and it’s probably something that, you know, for me and my career and where I want to go, I think I, you [01:33:00] know, I think being able to pick his brain and just sit with him, I think would be incredible. [01:33:05] I think number one, number two, probably for me, quite a I quite [01:33:10] like my movies. So I think Christopher Nolan, I’ve loved his movie since I was young. [01:33:15] So I think just understanding how he creates a vision within his head and plots it because, you [01:33:20] know, it’s art.

Payman Langroudi: Which is your favourite memento?

Kautham Haran: Love that movie [01:33:25] from 2000. So a film shot I think. Non-chronologically. [01:33:30] So it’s back to front. It’s very.

Adrian Dray: Weird.

Kautham Haran: Film, very good movies. If you haven’t seen it, I would [01:33:35] recommend.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve seen it or not.

Kautham Haran: Yeah, I would, um.

Payman Langroudi: Would I remember it?

Kautham Haran: No it’s not. I don’t think [01:33:40] it’s particularly popular very you know, I mean he’s known for confusing movies, but I think I remember [01:33:45] the name. Yeah. That was the kind of one that got it. Um, and probably third more [01:33:50] from a personal point of view. Um, I think, um, I never got the chance to meet my [01:33:55] grandfather. He passed away before I was born. But when I’ve spoken to [01:34:00] my father, you know, they grew up in Sri Lanka. He was the reason, you know, that set the whole platform [01:34:05] for my father to, you know, eventually leave his country due to civil war. But I think I stand [01:34:10] on the shoulders of fathers, grandfathers, mothers, grandmothers of people [01:34:15] like that. And I think seeing how, you know, my dad’s my biggest hero. So if seeing them and [01:34:20] being able to talk to the person who moulded him, I think I there’s insights [01:34:25] there that I just wish and pray that I could have. But obviously he’s passed. So [01:34:30] unfortunately I can’t. But yeah, I think there’s.

Payman Langroudi: Good reason to have him, right? Yeah. What [01:34:35] did your dad do?

Kautham Haran: Uh, my dad’s just, uh. He was a corner shop owner before. He’s now retired, but, [01:34:40] um, put.

Payman Langroudi: Myself in that corner shop owner. People say that. Yeah. The question is, what was he doing before that? [01:34:45] Because sometimes you’d be like, yeah, he was a civil engineer and then he became a corner shop. You get that [01:34:50] all the time.

Kautham Haran: Yeah. So my father left his country at the age of 21 due to civil war. Kind of [01:34:55] came over Sri Lanka. Yeah. Sri Lanka then. So he’s been a start up owner. Corner shop owner. Right. So [01:35:00] like I’ve always seen the drive to work from him. Honestly, he used to work. Really.

Payman Langroudi: You ever work in the shop? [01:35:05]

Kautham Haran: Yeah. Yeah. Back in the day.

Payman Langroudi: So massive people talk about how they manage like to [01:35:10] learn how to talk to anyone from working in a general store.

Kautham Haran: Absolutely. I think that kind [01:35:15] of just that relationship to, to talk to people from a young age, I think my dad was always against technology, [01:35:20] you know, was that, you know, those automatic tools that you got with the scanners when they first came out, I said, [01:35:25] is what I call him. I said, come on, you’ve got to get one of these, say the times. He’s like, no, why? Why don’t you just memorise the [01:35:30] price of every single item in the shop? And that’s how he runs it and how his staff had to run it. [01:35:35] And I thought, this is insane. So yeah, he did that. I think very mathsy brain, [01:35:40] which I think, and my mother as well, I’ve kind of taken on. But understanding that hard [01:35:45] work, I think comes from him for sure. And that’s kind of motivated me. They, you know, [01:35:50] they didn’t have to leave, you know, going back to Sri Lanka. I see the way they grew up. Bloody hell. You know, [01:35:55] like living, you know, three of them in a room smaller than this. Um, and growing up like that teaches you humility, [01:36:00] which I think then means that who am I to not try hard, given the opportunities I’ve given in life? So [01:36:05] that for me has been a very big kind of thing that I’m worried about future generations. [01:36:10] If they don’t see that hardship, how do you get them to to be motivated and [01:36:15] to push themselves? So, um, I think, yeah, coming from my father and those [01:36:20] generations, I think is it’s important.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting. It’s like, you know, diamonds are made under pressure, [01:36:25] whatever, at the same time, you know, like, let’s imagine your kids [01:36:30] will see what you’re doing under a different type of pressure. Have you got kids?

Kautham Haran: Not yet. [01:36:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, and then and then the kind of thing that your kid might aspire to be. There’s [01:36:40] a global thing that, you know, it’s an interesting story.

Kautham Haran: Of course, because how do [01:36:45] you teach a generation? I don’t know, I find it really interesting. When you said your kids got off to a uni right now, [01:36:50] you said, yeah, yeah. So teaching them, you know, if, if you have a parent [01:36:55] that’s successful, I think, how do you instil that fire in the next generation? They have to be [01:37:00] motivated or been brought in, understand the the push and the hard work that’s necessary. [01:37:05] But understanding that you don’t always get given things on a silver platter, I think is important. But that’s [01:37:10] all kind of how you’re brought up. There’s some, you know, comparing to your peers, all these kind of things. It’s, it’s, [01:37:15] I don’t envy you at the moment, but it’s going to be even harder for future generations. I think, um, [01:37:20] it’s a quote I always love. What’s it the good time. Sorry. Good times breed [01:37:25] weak men. Weak men breed bad times and bad times breed good men, man, right? So that kind [01:37:30] of.

Adrian Dray: Heard of that?

Kautham Haran: Yeah. I think that cycle is.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:37:35] about you? Brilliant. Brilliant. Guess who’s going to be yours.

Adrian Dray: So [01:37:40] dead or alive?

Payman Langroudi: Three. Guess.

Adrian Dray: Fiction or non-fiction. Right. Okay. [01:37:45]

Payman Langroudi: Fiction. Interesting. Cool.

Adrian Dray: So it could be characters. Sure. Okay.

Kautham Haran: Fictional.

Adrian Dray: Yeah. [01:37:50]

Payman Langroudi: Well, like Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck like that.

Adrian Dray: I don’t give it away. Um, [01:37:55] so my first one would be Alex Hormozi. [01:38:00] Oh, yeah. Right. And for those who don’t know who Alex doesn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Know Alex Hormozi.

Adrian Dray: People don’t. I [01:38:05] spoke to some. Oh, that guy from the Neck Dentistry show. I was talking to him. He didn’t [01:38:10] know who it was, like flipping it, mate. I guess there’s.

Payman Langroudi: A guy who’s not who’s not flicking as much as I am.

Adrian Dray: But [01:38:15] Alex Hormozi is just, you know, he’s entrepreneurial brain. [01:38:20] He’s ability to deal with the hard things is just great. Like that [01:38:25] guy is just a machine.

Payman Langroudi: Like just Unemotional. Yeah.

Adrian Dray: Sort of. Yeah. But also, when he does [01:38:30] tap into that emotional bit, it’s like so compelling. It’s like, wow, you do bleed, you know? Um, [01:38:35] then the second person would be my favourite character of [01:38:40] all time. And that is Quint. So the fisherman, [01:38:45] the shark shark hunter in jaws.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Adrian Dray: Oh, right.

Payman Langroudi: Because he’s [01:38:50] you want the character.

Adrian Dray: I want the character.

Payman Langroudi: Not the actor.

Adrian Dray: No, I mean, Robert Shaw would be amazing, but as [01:38:55] Robert Shaw, as Quint in that, because, you know.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve never had a character before. I [01:39:00] love that.

Adrian Dray: The ability to his storytelling ability is incredible. [01:39:05] Right. Um, and he’s quite grizzly, you know. Um, and then the, [01:39:10] the third person would be Don Draper from Mad Men. [01:39:15]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah. Yeah. The character.

Adrian Dray: The character. But Jon Hamm playing Don [01:39:20] Draper. Right. Um.

Payman Langroudi: These are some of the three most innovative answers I’ve had. [01:39:25] Bad.

Adrian Dray: Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. Because I think the conversation around that table would be so [01:39:30] interesting. Don Draper has got this very creative, almost aloof kind of personality. [01:39:35] You’ve got Quint who’s just this aggressive, you know, blue collar, almost [01:39:40] quite a nasty person, right, in many ways. And then you’ve got Hormozi, [01:39:45] who is just so like locked in to, to hard work, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Can I add one for you?

Adrian Dray: Yeah, [01:39:50] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Younger Adrian the musician. Oh, really? We didn’t really get to that.

Adrian Dray: That guy’s [01:39:55] a douchebag.

Payman Langroudi: We didn’t really get to that part of the conversation. [01:40:00] You were a proper rock star for a bit, man.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, I was a front man of a band. I was building [01:40:05] up in Stockholm, and it was a great time in my life. I was a lot [01:40:10] I almost half the weight I am now. Um, but it was brilliant writing my own songs [01:40:15] and yeah, having that.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re thinking of going back to writing.

Adrian Dray: Yeah. You [01:40:20] know, I was in, I was in Austin a few weeks ago and that country [01:40:25] music scene. And I the last sort of songs I was writing were very sort of country music based. Uh, [01:40:30] and I just got a taste for it. And I just thought for me, if I’m going to go back [01:40:35] on stage, feel more confident in myself, but also to be able to sing better because it, you know, it’s [01:40:40] breathing is a big part of it. I thought, I need to lose a buttload of weight. So I’ve set my set myself [01:40:45] a goal in November, I’m going to do a gig in Manchester and know exactly where it’s going to be. And I’ve got [01:40:50] ten songs to write and about 50, 40, 50 kilos to lose.

Payman Langroudi: And, well.

Kautham Haran: People are going to be [01:40:55] shouting, is that Don Draper? Oh.

Speaker 5: Yeah, [01:41:00] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s it’s [01:41:05] been a massive pleasure, man. I’ve really enjoyed it. Um, from you I’ve learnt go back on Facebook [01:41:10] and for you, my God, you, your brain works really beautiful [01:41:15] sort of logical way. It’s nice to see that. Nice to see how in touch you are with all [01:41:20] of that as well. And team building. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing.

Adrian Dray: Can I do one last thing? [01:41:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Of course.

Adrian Dray: Can I plug someone? A business, a small little business [01:41:30] who unfortunately was at the same had [01:41:35] the same sort of outcome that I had from that individual who took the whole CRM [01:41:40] business idea.

Payman Langroudi: From the same person.

Adrian Dray: Same person.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Adrian Dray: I’ve heard that. [01:41:45] She’s a wonderful person. I’ve looked at her, some of her work. She does branding. Uh, it’s, uh, [01:41:50] her website is Varta creative studio.co. That’s VARTA creative [01:41:55] studio.co. Um, her, her big sister’s a [01:42:00] dentist owns a couple of practices and I think if people can have a look at what she’s got, go [01:42:05] for it.

Payman Langroudi: What does she do?

Adrian Dray: So she, she does like branding website design. It’s [01:42:10] on a smaller level. But I think we should look at these, these sort of, you know, smaller businesses and [01:42:15] give them a shot. And she’s, she’s had a difficult time with that individual. And I think, you know what, [01:42:20] go ahead and have a look.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes you know the creatives for this stuff. Yeah, [01:42:25] we, we first, um, booked them 18 years [01:42:30] ago and it was just two men and now they’re this massive. [01:42:35]

Adrian Dray: Wow.

Payman Langroudi: It’s, you know, some sometimes it’s, it’s when you’re small [01:42:40] and new, when you’re most innovative. Yeah.

Adrian Dray: You’ve got nothing to lose often, you know. [01:42:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But you have to be something. You have to be outside of the box. Right?

Kautham Haran: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Lovely [01:42:50] to have you guys. Thanks. Thanks for doing it.

Kautham Haran: Thank you. Thanks so much.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. [01:42:55] If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both [01:43:00] from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has [01:43:05] had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, [01:43:10] think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you think [01:43:15] might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

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