Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] enlightened Online training.com to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time. Whitening Underwhelms try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where [00:00:30] you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and [00:00:40] Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Ben Barta [00:00:45] onto the podcast. Ben is a long time [00:00:50] member of the dental support kind of group. The the people who [00:00:55] set up events started out with open rooms. Um, and, uh, [00:01:00] then now doing your own thing. Yeah. Good to see you, man.

Ben Barter: Good to see you, too. Payman. Thanks [00:01:05] for having me.

Payman Langroudi: My pleasure. Um, you’ve been in Dental. Since when?

Ben Barter: Since, [00:01:10] well, full time 2015, I would say. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:01:15] what surprises you the most about the Dental industry or what surprised [00:01:20] you? What’s different about it to what you thought it would be?

Ben Barter: I think as a non [00:01:25] dentist and as someone who, to be honest, has, [00:01:30] you know, relative to the people that I spend time with in the industry, has very little knowledge [00:01:35] at all. Uh, everybody’s incredibly friendly, incredibly welcoming, very [00:01:40] respectful because, you know, you’d be forgiven for thinking like, this guy’s [00:01:45] not worth my time. He’s not, you know, he’s just organising an event, for example. But actually, you [00:01:50] know, people really give you the time of day and want to know about you. And yeah, I think that’s it’s. [00:01:55]

Payman Langroudi: A small world, right?

Ben Barter: It’s a great community. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a small world. Um, for [00:02:00] sure. Everybody seems to know everybody. Yeah. Um, which again is great, but [00:02:05] also I guess we work across quite a few different industries. The thing [00:02:10] I find about Dental is that everybody knows everybody, not just from a professional [00:02:15] point of view, but it’s there’s a lot of personal relationships in there.

Payman Langroudi: And what are the other industries you’ve worked [00:02:20] in?

Ben Barter: So we’ve worked well currently on this business. We work in veterinary [00:02:25] and petrol stations as well. Also done a bit of work in pharmacy [00:02:30] in data centres, which was not so successful. But yeah, [00:02:35] Dental.

Payman Langroudi: Kicked off all of those at the same time. Did you?

Ben Barter: Yeah, we did all of them at the same time. Yeah. [00:02:40] Um.

Payman Langroudi: So how do you how do you go about it? Let’s say you want to do something in um petrol [00:02:45] stations. Do you find someone who’s already selling something to petrol stations and recruit that guy. [00:02:50] How does it work.

Ben Barter: So a lot of it is about building some really strong [00:02:55] initial connections that are influential within whatever industry it’s in. So if you’ve [00:03:00] got the, you know, the petrol station industry, for example, if [00:03:05] we can find someone who knows people very well, um, [00:03:10] and is well connected, then he can introduce, he [00:03:15] can introduce us to, you know, a range of different people.

Payman Langroudi: Literally, what do you do? Do [00:03:20] you go and ask everyone you know, do you know anyone in that industry or what do you do?

Ben Barter: We normally [00:03:25] normally use LinkedIn, find a find a couple of people. Yeah. Um, I guess it’s a bit different now because the [00:03:30] ones, the industries that we’re working in at the moment, we’ve had, we’ve got a grounding in them. We, we know [00:03:35] people, uh, through, you know, other experience, but if say, it was a brand new [00:03:40] one, um, we would look at who are the key players and [00:03:45] try and onboard them in a consultant level or engage them [00:03:50] with wanting to speak at an event, something like that to break [00:03:55] the ice. And then as we build on those relationships, hope and kind of expect [00:04:00] that they connect us with other people or teach us a bit about the industry. Um, and [00:04:05] then we, and then we go from there and it’s kind of a domino effect.

Payman Langroudi: Are you noticing that most industries [00:04:10] are the same? What are the nuances about the pharma industry or the vet industry [00:04:15] that you wouldn’t expect compared to the Dental industry? Or would you say everyone’s kind of similar? [00:04:20] Uh, no.

Ben Barter: No, there are big differences for sure. There are big differences. Like, [00:04:25] um, the pharmacy industry that we’re, we’re not in in a [00:04:30] large capacity at the moment, but, um, it’s incredibly political, [00:04:35] isn’t it? So yeah, there’s a lot of that going on and, um, it’s [00:04:40] not, it’s not the same as the Dental industry where everyone just comes in, they, they all get on [00:04:45] incredibly well. There are different like relationships within that. Um, it’s a bit more complicated. [00:04:50] It’s interesting, but there is like a large political angle to, um, [00:04:55] to all those relationships and what people are wanting to achieve. [00:05:00] There are lots of associations. They don’t necessarily just.

Payman Langroudi: Align.

Ben Barter: Always play [00:05:05] nicely together. Um, so that is very different. Um, [00:05:10] but then we.

Payman Langroudi: Should explain, we should explain to, to anyone who doesn’t know what the basic business [00:05:15] model in the dentistry arena anyway, is that you hook up [00:05:20] corporate dentists, people with lots of practices to suppliers. Yeah. [00:05:25] Weekend away, someplace nice. And then the corporates [00:05:30] get to come for free. And the suppliers pay for the sort of 15 minute, ten [00:05:35] minute speed dating that you set up. And then there’s an amazing [00:05:40] social sort of calendar around that sort of breakfast, lunch, dinner party kind [00:05:45] of thing. Yeah, that’s the basic formula. That’s brilliant. That’s a brilliant formula. It is two brilliant. [00:05:50] So so are you doing the same formula across all the different, um, you [00:05:55] know, segments like.

Ben Barter: We’re doing the same formula. Yeah. I think that’s the thing that we’ve, we’ve always found [00:06:00] works really well. And if it’s not broken, don’t fix it. And I think the, the [00:06:05] original structure remains the same as when, you know, I first [00:06:10] experienced it 11 years ago. And, you know, the founders [00:06:15] of Open Room, for example, they started it over 20 years ago. The the structure is, is [00:06:20] the same. It’s effective.

Payman Langroudi: Did they did did they copy it from somewhere or was that was that their original [00:06:25] idea?

Ben Barter: I think that, you know, I can’t I can’t quite remember, but I think [00:06:30] there was, um, I think they kind of took a [00:06:35] similar concept and put it into what is this [00:06:40] format of? Yeah, speed dating for businesses really.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I take my hat off [00:06:45] to you because events are extraordinarily difficult, really hard. I just did that Ministry [00:06:50] of Sound event. And it’s hard. It’s so hard. So many moving parts [00:06:55] and everything made for this one day, two days, and [00:07:00] like a wedding or something, isn’t it? Something’s going to go wrong and you have to sort [00:07:05] of think on your feet.

Ben Barter: It’s a lot of work for building up to one particular [00:07:10] moment.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ben Barter: And I think like across a lot of different industries, you don’t really get [00:07:15] that. It’s like a building over time. Yeah. And you see the results. Whereas we are building [00:07:20] this over time. But then it’s the you see the results, they’re either good or they’re bad. Yeah. In, [00:07:25] in two days, which is yeah, it is quite different. It puts a lot of pressure on. [00:07:30] I’d say that we’re quite used to it now. We actually thrive on on that. [00:07:35] And getting to the execution stage is that’s the bit that we really enjoy. [00:07:40] We find it rewarding, you know, spending time with the people that we’ve been kind of putting [00:07:45] this together for is, is a great experience. [00:07:50] And, um, you know, if you’re doing that with nice people as well, that’s, that’s even better, which [00:07:55] we, which we always are. Um, but yeah, I think as, as, as you know, from [00:08:00] the ministry of sound event, it’s like there’s always something that goes [00:08:05] wrong, right? As much as it can look incredible. And I thought that like [00:08:10] that, all the photos that I was seeing from that just looked like the production levels [00:08:15] are absolutely insane. And I think, but, but [00:08:20] always as the organiser, I don’t know if you find this, but there’s always something that [00:08:25] hasn’t gone to plan.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it does go wrong. Yeah.

Ben Barter: But it’s whether the people notice that [00:08:30] yeah is the key thing.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it’s also like knowing who your customer is, right. In [00:08:35] a way. Because one of I know my ministry of sound event. I [00:08:40] mean, of course, enlightens biggest users were they were the VIPs in [00:08:45] the room, right? Yeah. Because, you know, that’s my company. But the. In [00:08:50] our event, the sponsors were the customers. Yeah, not really the [00:08:55] ticket holders, the sponsors because they put up so much of it. Yeah. And [00:09:00] you know that moving that’s a, that’s like a four layered thing, isn’t it? You’ve got yourself, [00:09:05] your company, your team, then you’ve got the delegates, then you’ve got the sponsors. [00:09:10] And in, in our situation at that point, I wanted to make sure sponsors really, [00:09:15] really got value out of it. And that’s very different. When you turn up to an [00:09:20] event, you don’t you don’t necessarily think it’s for the sponsors, right? Yeah. But it is. Yeah, [00:09:25] exactly.

Ben Barter: It’s got to be they’ve got they’ve got to be happy to, you know, whether people like it [00:09:30] or not. Yeah. That’s how it works. That’s why the event is there. The [00:09:35] sponsors have made that happen. We might have been the ones organising and facilitating, [00:09:40] but without the sponsors we can’t do anything.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So your own background, [00:09:45] how did you get into events?

Ben Barter: It was very, very random, to be honest. [00:09:50] Um, it was my first job out of university. Um, so I [00:09:55] guess background, my, you know, my mum was friends with, [00:10:00] uh, Fiona who started open rim. Okay. Um, and so [00:10:05] through that got a bit of work experience while I was at university. And I loved it to the [00:10:10] point where actually after my first year of uni, I thought, should I just go and work? Um, this [00:10:15] might be a better fit for me. Um, but I carried on through university. [00:10:20]

Payman Langroudi: And then did you study something completely unrelated?

Ben Barter: I studied economics, politics [00:10:25] and international relations, which. Yeah. [00:10:30] I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Instead of the UN, you joined Dental forum. Ah.

Ben Barter: I can’t [00:10:35] say I learnt a huge amount, um, at university, to be honest. It was like [00:10:40] what I got out of it was um friends and growing up a bit [00:10:45] more, I think. But in terms of actual stuff that I learned throughout three years, I [00:10:50] don’t think I’ve ever put any of it into practice since since leaving. Yeah, it’s [00:10:55] it’s a piece of paper that I’ve got at the end of it.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s so interesting that if you’d studied event management, [00:11:00] that’s nowhere near sort of a high level degree as economics, [00:11:05] but that might have given you like so much more. I mean, well or not or [00:11:10] not, you know, who knows, maybe event management degrees are terrible, but, you know, like [00:11:15] it’s looked down on that kind of degree. And yet that that’s the degree that might [00:11:20] have helped you loads in what you’re doing.

Ben Barter: Yeah. I mean, it’s such a good point. Like if, if [00:11:25] I had my time again, I’d probably do like business studies or something. [00:11:30] That’s a bit more practical.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ben Barter: Um, you know, or marketing or something like [00:11:35] that that I could put into my day.

Payman Langroudi: Media studies was a real cop out. But now you’re thinking [00:11:40] media. Like if you know media, it’s very useful. Yeah.

Ben Barter: Yeah. [00:11:45]

Payman Langroudi: So then, okay, you was your first job with the Open Rooms.

Ben Barter: First job [00:11:50] was with open Rooms. Yeah, and I was there for five years. Stayed there for five years.

Payman Langroudi: And what an execution. [00:11:55] What a brilliant execution those guys did. What did you learn? What were the positives that you learned about business management from? [00:12:00] From those two.

Ben Barter: Got endless, really. I think vast [00:12:05] majority of stuff that I know now, I would, I would say I learned learned from being there [00:12:10] in the certainly in the first five years, but I, I [00:12:15] was incredibly lucky because what I was the seventh employee, I think there. [00:12:20] So every day have a direct communication with the founders, [00:12:25] you know, being. They were also my managers. They taught me how to do [00:12:30] everything. So getting that exposure was, was great. And also it could be taken as far as [00:12:35] I wanted to as well. I’ve always had an interest in kind of running [00:12:40] my own business. At some point. I had had that since I was younger, so the [00:12:45] ability to be able to kind of explore that and see just from learning [00:12:50] and seeing what they’re, what they’re doing, um, ended up meaning that I got kind [00:12:55] of a really well-rounded education, if you like, from, but.

Payman Langroudi: What were.

Ben Barter: The, the [00:13:00] different parts of the business?

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s kind of weird because it was your first job, so you might take it for granted, [00:13:05] take the lessons for granted. Right. But you know, when like you say with dentists, they go work in six different [00:13:10] practices and then they learn good and bad from some of the people, [00:13:15] you know, the, the running the business.

Ben Barter: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind if I say what was like the top lessons [00:13:20] you learned from them?

Ben Barter: Okay, so probably the number one. And it’s [00:13:25] still they would always say, if you’re going to fail, fail quickly. Um, [00:13:30] which I think is a great lesson and just help [00:13:35] my understanding of when is it going wrong. And then is [00:13:40] that is it possible to change when it’s going wrong? Yeah. Or is this just something that’s going [00:13:45] to keep on going the wrong direction? And I’m actually wasting my time and energy and distracting from [00:13:50] something that might be much better. So I’d say that’s probably one thing.

Payman Langroudi: It is [00:13:55] difficult though, isn’t it? Because sometimes sticking at it is the best move.

Ben Barter: And sometimes [00:14:00] it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Hard to know what’s the right time to pivot.

Ben Barter: But I think I think if I can [00:14:05] think about every time where something was going in the wrong direction, I’ve [00:14:10] whether I’ve listened to it or not, I’ve always had a gut feeling that there’s been a moment where [00:14:15] it’s been like, this is not going in the right direction, and something should change. And [00:14:20] whenever I’ve listened to that is resolved, and that might be just a little pivot, [00:14:25] for example, or that might be just canning it all together, but not [00:14:30] listening to that is probably the times where actually the mistakes grow bigger.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:14:35] do you trust your gut? Yeah, because that’s a big kind of [00:14:40] like sometimes you go against your gut, don’t you? And then you realise later it was a mistake. But [00:14:45] but some people don’t trust their gut. I remember as a young man, I wasn’t, I was, I was trying to be so scientific. [00:14:50] I’d go, what’s this gut thing? I’d almost go against it on purpose. Do [00:14:55] you find what are you good at? Are you good at sizing people up or opportunities or what?

Ben Barter: I think [00:15:00] probably reading people, um, I would say is something [00:15:05] that I’ve to date done, done fairly well. Um, I [00:15:10] think looking at an opportunity and deciding whether it’s, it’s worthwhile also [00:15:15] like I like taking a risk, but I think the [00:15:20] kind of trust in my gut thing has allowed me to manage that a little bit. I think like, you [00:15:25] know, probably ten years ago, I’d have been happy to take any risk. Yeah, [00:15:30] going.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ben Barter: Even if it was just plain stupid. But but now [00:15:35] it’s more like calculated risks. And I think that comes from [00:15:40] trusting my gut.

Payman Langroudi: So in between Dental forum and [00:15:45] Dental assembly, there was Covid. Yeah. And you did your own [00:15:50] Start-Up?

Ben Barter: Yes. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Tell us about that.

Ben Barter: Well, I mean, that was a big [00:15:55] leap. And talk about trusting your gut. Yeah. Uh, [00:16:00] because it seemed like quite a crazy move at the time. Um, I mean, [00:16:05] not in the sense that it was Covid and it was not possible to put on events. So [00:16:10] timing worked in that.

Payman Langroudi: Because that was a pivot because events were.

Ben Barter: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I see.

Ben Barter: So [00:16:15] this, this happened in April 2020, but [00:16:20] I think I was ready to kind of do something different and get a different experience anyway. So [00:16:25] the timing was good on that front. But what it we started a business, uh, my business [00:16:30] partner who also worked at open room at the time, um, flinty, um, [00:16:35] and we started a business that was price comparison app for [00:16:40] beauty products. The crazy part is that I’m, I was not, [00:16:45] I didn’t know anything about beauty products and I didn’t know anything about technology. [00:16:50] So the two things like that is kind of, yeah, [00:16:55] some people might say stupid, but saw an opportunity thought actually [00:17:00] perfect timing. You know, we’ve got some time to really get our heads down. Nothing to distract us. [00:17:05]

Payman Langroudi: People were buying loads of stuff online. Suddenly, right.

Ben Barter: Online sales were going through the roof. And [00:17:10] and there had been an underlying trend anyway, before that with beauty products [00:17:15] that sales online were going up, they were becoming a larger percentage of. [00:17:20]

Payman Langroudi: And was it price comparison for the same product or for the same ingredients, or what? How did [00:17:25] it work?

Ben Barter: It’s the same product. So so our.

Payman Langroudi: The actual branded product was sold here for this much [00:17:30] and here for somewhere else.

Ben Barter: Exactly. So designed to be a bit like Skyscanner, but for beauty products. [00:17:35] And then we also put a social element in there [00:17:40] because beauty products on social media, massive thing. But [00:17:45] we wanted somewhere where it could be exchanged or maybe a friend level [00:17:50] rather than influencer to consumer. So the friend level being that [00:17:55] and you know, the app still going. I’m not involved in the day to day, but, [00:18:00] um, what you do is you put the contents of your washbag onto [00:18:05] a virtual shelf, all the products on there. And then the idea being that, [00:18:10] um, if you wanted to know what this person was, was using or [00:18:15] what perfume they were wearing or something like that, you’d be able to have a look on their shelf [00:18:20] and see what that product is.

Payman Langroudi: Quite interesting.

Ben Barter: Yeah. And it’s, [00:18:25] I think that that kind of nosiness amongst consumers was really [00:18:30] like, was really appealing and people and people got it. Um, when [00:18:35] we were initially scoping out the idea and then you add on the price comparison to that. So the idea [00:18:40] being that you’ve got the contents of your shelf and whenever one of the products is discounted, we’ll send [00:18:45] you a notification. And the average saving doing it by that method was 26% [00:18:50] is 26%. Um, maybe even increasing now because [00:18:55] there’s always a deal going somewhere. The issue is finding it.

Payman Langroudi: And what about the tech? [00:19:00] I mean, who did the tech?

Ben Barter: The tech. The tech was a steep, steep learning [00:19:05] curve for us. So we were, I think had it not been covered, [00:19:10] there might have been different things that we would have done. For example, like neither of us are technical [00:19:15] and we didn’t know anybody technical personally. So [00:19:20] if we were going to bring on a technical co-founder, it would have been a case of finding someone, interviewing them by Zoom. [00:19:25] And potentially at that stage, it looked like not meeting in person for six months, [00:19:30] which just felt wrong to us. So we decided to go down the agency route [00:19:35] and then we could get a fixed cost. We knew how much we needed to raise, and we found this company that [00:19:40] was that scoped everything out. We got, [00:19:45] I don’t know, 50 page document exactly what you’re going to get. And this is the fixed price. So it wasn’t [00:19:50] going to be like it’s taking longer and you need another ten K to do this or that. So [00:19:55] we went ahead with that, which was it served its purpose for what we needed. But [00:20:00] over the years, we quickly outgrew that, outgrew that solution. And we’re spending [00:20:05] a lot of money on development. We’ve now got, and [00:20:10] part of the reason why, you know, I transitioned away from the business was to [00:20:15] kind of change the, the makeup of the founding team to make it a bit better. [00:20:20] Um, so we’ve got a technical, a CTO [00:20:25] who used to be pretty senior in Google, um, has some [00:20:30] amazing experience and he’s now leading the product. And honestly, the changes that that has made [00:20:35] in the space of six months are remarkable. So glad that we’ve got that in place now. [00:20:40]

Payman Langroudi: Are you only out of it for six months?

Ben Barter: No, no no, I’m out of it. I’ve been out of it since 2000, [00:20:45] 2024. So, um, when I came back to open room, [00:20:50] I then took myself away from skin and [00:20:55] now I I’m still involved. I still speak to my business partner who’s also [00:21:00] a good friend of mine. Um, but that’s very much on a, like, you know, let’s have [00:21:05] a chat about stuff and I’ll give you some advice. And I’ve got some shares in the business, but not involved [00:21:10] on a day to day level, nor will I be.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, and you guys go on to Dragons Den.

Ben Barter: We [00:21:15] did? Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me that. How did you how did that come about? Did you actively seek to go [00:21:20] out on Dragon’s Den or.

Ben Barter: So yeah, when we were in our early stages, [00:21:25] we put in an application to go on Dragons Den and we were doing a fundraiser. So [00:21:30] we thought kind of naively, oh yeah, we’ll put in an application for that. Maybe that will turn around [00:21:35] really quickly and we’ll get some money in. Um, and we didn’t hear anything [00:21:40] back. We closed the round, got on with it, and then just randomly out of the blue, [00:21:45] I get a phone call. Um, I think, you know, over a year later saying [00:21:50] basically, uh, we like what you guys are doing. Do you want to [00:21:55] come on? Um, so yeah, obviously we said yes. We happen to [00:22:00] be doing another raise at the time as well. So we genuinely needed the money as well. We weren’t just going [00:22:05] on for a marketing from a marketing perspective, which I know a lot of businesses do, and I can [00:22:10] understand why. Yeah. But the dynamic was slightly different for us that [00:22:15] we were like, right, this is going to be great exposure, but it’s not going to come out for a year after filming probably [00:22:20] or almost. So we actually need to close and get some money as a result [00:22:25] of it. Um, which we did, fortunately. Um.

Payman Langroudi: What? You accepted [00:22:30] an offer.

Ben Barter: We accepted an offer. Yeah, yeah, we got, we got an offer that we were really happy with, actually.

Payman Langroudi: Which [00:22:35] dragon?

Ben Barter: Uh, Sarah Davies, who? And she’s brilliant. She really [00:22:40] does get involved in the business, the businesses that she invests in. So she [00:22:45] organises a retreat once a year, um, where she gets all the businesses that she’s invested in [00:22:50] together for a couple of days and exchange ideas. There’s always something [00:22:55] to learn from these other people, even if they’re doing something completely different. [00:23:00] There’s always someone who’s fundraising or having, you know, hitting a wall [00:23:05] with their marketing or whatever that may be. And also just her time and [00:23:10] expertise. So she’s a fantastic investor. Um, and she’s, she’s [00:23:15] no longer on the show as well, which I mean, from a selfish point of view is, is great because [00:23:20] I think it means that, well, maybe not anymore, but Flynt, he gets to [00:23:25] spend more time with her, which is great.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me, how long was it sort [00:23:30] of bootstrapped? How long before you raised the first dollar and all of that?

Ben Barter: Um, [00:23:35] so I mean, I’ll go back to talking about risks here because again, [00:23:40] this is something that this is a case of just trust your gut. I think that we, we came [00:23:45] up with the concept. We knew what we wanted to do. We went and spoke to the developer. [00:23:50] We signed a contract with that developer. And I think between us, we [00:23:55] had a bit of money that we could kind of kick start the the expenses that we needed to incur [00:24:00] in order to get the ball rolling. But we signed a contract for 50 [00:24:05] K, um, the developer. Yeah. [00:24:10] And we had not raised a penny. So then we were like, okay, right. We’ve [00:24:15] got to go out and raise some money. We’ve got to do it fairly quickly to, you know, to finance [00:24:20] that. So we, we did an initial round, um, which was [00:24:25] kind of made up of mostly kind of friends and family and connections through that. [00:24:30] Um, got to the point where we did like a soft launch of the app. [00:24:35] And then we did a further round, which was then going away from that. We’ve, we’ve never [00:24:40] done any VC funding, but we’ve, we’ve done what I think we’re on our fourth [00:24:45] round of fundraising now. Um, so again, it’s, it’s getting more into just [00:24:50] getting in touch with angel investors on LinkedIn.

Payman Langroudi: But you’ve never done that before.

Ben Barter: Had you never done that before? No. [00:24:55] No. So that was, that was quite that was an interesting it was a really difficult [00:25:00] experience, actually.

Payman Langroudi: Go on.

Ben Barter: I think.

Payman Langroudi: Constant rejections.

Ben Barter: Constant [00:25:05] rejections. I’m fine. Fine with that because, you know, I’ve been working in sales [00:25:10] for open for five years.

Payman Langroudi: Like you used to.

Ben Barter: Get used to it. I think the difference [00:25:15] with fundraising is you’re selling yourself. You’re not selling a product or finding [00:25:20] a fit. It’s are we the right people [00:25:25] to take.

Payman Langroudi: The right job.

Ben Barter: To do this? Because I don’t think there was any ever any question [00:25:30] about whether the idea was good. Like all the data was suggesting, it’s the right [00:25:35] thing to do. I fully expect that if you look ten years down the line, this [00:25:40] will be quite a normal thing amongst beauty consumers. But [00:25:45] it was whether we’re the right fit to do it. And that was where it was difficult because we had and [00:25:50] I don’t blame people, but we had no relevant experience whatsoever. So you do get a lot [00:25:55] of rejection because it’s someone then that on the basis of like half an [00:26:00] hour phone call or Zoom meeting, they’re going to they’re like, okay, I’m going to take [00:26:05] a punt on these guys. And that’s what investing is at the best of times, but certainly with people [00:26:10] with no relevant experience, it’s even more so. So it was it was hard, but we managed to [00:26:15] do it.

Payman Langroudi: And and what would you like to say in the end if you had to distil it? What [00:26:20] do they want? They want a big market that you [00:26:25] might be able to get a bite out of. Is that right? And so then what? You have to come across [00:26:30] as all confident or what? What did you what did you what are the insights?

Ben Barter: It [00:26:35] really varied between, between different people that we [00:26:40] spoke to. So there was never because I think after every call we’d be looking at like, okay, [00:26:45] what’s the, what’s the trend here? What questions are we falling short on?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:26:50]

Ben Barter: Where do we need to improve? But there was never a consistent answer which made it really difficult. [00:26:55] Um, but I’d say the market people want to see, see [00:27:00] a great market for that product. They want to see product market [00:27:05] fit being the initial one. But then what’s the size of the opportunity. How big can can this [00:27:10] go. Total addressable.

Payman Langroudi: Market. Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Barter: Especially at [00:27:15] such an early stage business. They’re like, right, you guys obviously want to reach for [00:27:20] the stars and try and get as far as you can. But if you were saying all of this, like, what happens [00:27:25] if you’re doing 20% of that, is this still a good business? And I think that [00:27:30] was a.

Payman Langroudi: Tough question to answer.

Ben Barter: Isn’t it? Yeah, it was a really tough question. And I think in the beginning [00:27:35] we were really confused by it. We’d never done this before. And we’re like, what are you talking about 20%? [00:27:40] Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, maybe we’re prepared questions on 75%, [00:27:45] maybe even 50. But going that low down. And I can completely understand why they [00:27:50] asked those questions. But that was a bit of a learning curve for us. And then [00:27:55] I think the other thing that they just wanted to see from us, have [00:28:00] we got the capabilities to put it together? So have we got the [00:28:05] the grit to go and keep to keep going? And I think that’s [00:28:10] how we raised most of it, to be honest. It was it was through putting ourselves across [00:28:15] like that when we got when we took it away from the. Like on paper, this [00:28:20] is a great.

Payman Langroudi: We wanted it bad enough.

Ben Barter: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ben Barter: Yeah. [00:28:25]

Payman Langroudi: All right. And then so with Dental assembly, what’s the finance model [00:28:30] for you? Have you had to raise money for that?

Ben Barter: We did. Yeah. Yeah. So [00:28:35] we I guess it’s pretty different to, to skin, which we, we knew always with that [00:28:40] one that we were going to have to raise round after round. This was a [00:28:45] case of, I mean firstly we, we got a huge amount of experience between my business [00:28:50] partner Dominic and myself. We’ve got 16 years doing [00:28:55] this. So I think you’re having very different conversations with people. We were able [00:29:00] to forecast a lot more effectively what we needed. [00:29:05] Um, and we went out and we just raised that amount and it was a much more straightforward [00:29:10] process if, if I’m completely honest, but I think it’s the combination of all of that experience [00:29:15] before that made it so.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, the first time was the first time [00:29:20] as well.

Ben Barter: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s a real difference. It’s a real difference. And the second time [00:29:25] in a market, you really understand, I can imagine that you’re totally different [00:29:30] situation.

Ben Barter: A very different proposition. Yeah. I think when when we’re being [00:29:35] asked questions and we know we can say this is definitely we [00:29:40] can speak with Definites, which, which we would never in the beginning of at the beginning [00:29:45] of starting skin, we were never able to do that. It was all maybes.

Payman Langroudi: Now, in [00:29:50] this market that you’re in, which is essentially bringing DSOs [00:29:55] and suppliers together, suddenly there’s a massive surge of companies doing this. [00:30:00]

Ben Barter: Yeah, yeah, it’s crowded.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s suddenly become a crowded market. I mean, it wasn’t in your open [00:30:05] rooms days. You were the only ones in Dental anyway. Yeah. Um, [00:30:10] so how are you negotiating that? I mean, what are you saying? Is your USP over [00:30:15] the others.

Ben Barter: So I think I.

Payman Langroudi: Want to be clear. We’ve got [00:30:20] a couple of events coming up.

Ben Barter: Yeah, yeah we do.

Payman Langroudi: In September and November and November. [00:30:25]

Ben Barter: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And you’ve decided to split it up into big, big companies and small companies. [00:30:30]

Ben Barter: That’s right. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What was the thinking behind that?

Ben Barter: So we’re looking [00:30:35] at our overall objective is to is to be focusing on quality, not quantity. [00:30:40] So and I think that where, where we want to differentiate is [00:30:45] having small groups of people and building a real community. Now, when we, [00:30:50] when I first got involved in this in 2015, that’s very [00:30:55] much what it was. It was small groups of people. Everybody would spend time with everybody across the [00:31:00] two days. And it it was, you know, a close knit group every every time, [00:31:05] I think. So we wanted to carry that into that mentality, into this one. [00:31:10] Yeah. And by splitting it up, it means that we can cater for a [00:31:15] large part of the the whole DSA market really in [00:31:20] the UK? Yeah. Between having one event that caters for groups that have [00:31:25] got ten plus practices, um, and everything around that event is focussed on groups [00:31:30] of that size. It’s very, you know, it’s very considered, it’s very targeted towards them.

Payman Langroudi: In [00:31:35] what sense? Well, I think the, the education program.

Ben Barter: The education, [00:31:40] the content, the suppliers. Um, it’s very different peer to peer networking. [00:31:45] I mean.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting you say that, but you know, someone’s got 15 practices very, [00:31:50] very different. Someone who’s got 400.

Ben Barter: Is very different.

Payman Langroudi: But go on, go on.

Ben Barter: It is. And [00:31:55] obviously there’s going to be that that difference. But you know, for someone [00:32:00] who’s got 15 practices being amongst groups that have [00:32:05] got 400.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the next.

Ben Barter: Great exposure, isn’t it? It’s um, [00:32:10] you know, it’s good peer to peer time as far as we’re concerned. [00:32:15]

Payman Langroudi: So smaller groups.

Ben Barter: The smaller groups.

Payman Langroudi: Anything else?

Ben Barter: Um what [00:32:20] smaller groups of people. And then we’ve got the second event which caters for smaller.

Payman Langroudi: Smaller. [00:32:25]

Ben Barter: 1 to 10 practices. And I think that probably is quite an underserved part of the market. If we look [00:32:30] at a DSO and the kind of event that we’re putting together. Certainly, I know, [00:32:35] I know this from our previous experiences. We focus on the biggest ones, and [00:32:40] then we kind of work down from there. And this allows [00:32:45] us to look at a part of the market that where there are people that might not necessarily [00:32:50] be going to these other events on the market. So it creates variety for everybody [00:32:55] in the room, not just suppliers, but also the other Dental groups that are going.

Payman Langroudi: And let’s walk [00:33:00] through the process that each of the practice groups puts down a list of sort [00:33:05] of, uh, suppliers they want to meet. Yes. And vice versa. The suppliers [00:33:10] put down the list of the practice groups they want to meet.

Ben Barter: They do.

Payman Langroudi: And you put that all together into [00:33:15] how many meetings.

Ben Barter: We put that together into. On average, everybody’s going to have between [00:33:20] 12 and 14 meetings across the 210 minute meetings. Uh, [00:33:25] 15 minutes.

Payman Langroudi: 15 minute meetings. Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Barter: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then socially, because [00:33:30] a lot of the business happens in the bar, right?

Ben Barter: Well, you’re right, you’re right. It’s really important. [00:33:35] And this is this is part of what we were looking at when we were mapping this out [00:33:40] and, um, thinking it’s really important part to get right. [00:33:45] But over the past few years, we hadn’t been getting it necessarily [00:33:50] spot on. So we wanted to look at how we can change that. And the example [00:33:55] that I would give is that we, when we were looking at the venue, the hotel [00:34:00] that we’re using, which is a beautiful hotel, beautiful by the beach.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:34:05]

Ben Barter: Five star, but it’s got a setup that we can [00:34:10] give people variety, but keep people together in the same place, which is very unique. [00:34:15] And there are very few hotels out there that cater for things [00:34:20] in that way. There are probably 4 or 5 that that I can think of that we know [00:34:25] of in Europe that meet those requirements and this being one of them that we [00:34:30] can we can gradually scale up in terms of what we’re doing on [00:34:35] the social side of things. So like a casual first night dinner by the beach, [00:34:40] um, with a, you know, a bar going late into the night afterwards [00:34:45] and then through to the second night dinner where we’re going to have a slightly more formal event, [00:34:50] um, you know, again with beautiful sea views. Um, we’re [00:34:55] going to do an awards ceremony. We’ll have a special guest there. We’ll have some entertainment. And [00:35:00] then through past the dinner location, we’ve hired out [00:35:05] a nightclub which will be private to all the Dental Assembly attendees. So trying [00:35:10] to facilitate.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t leave like they normally do.

Ben Barter: They don’t leave. Yeah, exactly. And they get [00:35:15] you know, they still get that experience. They can, you know, drink late on into the night, [00:35:20] but it’s going to be quality networking time at the, at the same, um, you [00:35:25] know, with everybody in the same place together. And as you said at the start, a lot of [00:35:30] the business does get done at the bar. Yeah. And it’s really, really important that we pay, [00:35:35] pay attention to.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I’ve, I’ve, I [00:35:40] didn’t expect that my Ministry of sound event, the number of people who didn’t go [00:35:45] to the actual lectures.

Ben Barter: Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, we, we had sort [00:35:50] of in our head, okay, 200 people will be there and 50 people will be there, two rooms. And there [00:35:55] was a room in the middle, which was the breakout room, but continuously there was 100 people in the in [00:36:00] the breakout room all the time. But then, okay, it was fun. It was it was Ministry of Sound. [00:36:05] But but I hadn’t considered that that would be the case. And I thought about myself. And when [00:36:10] I was a dentist, that was the dentist. I was, you know, short attention span. [00:36:15] And for that reason, I kept the talks very, very short 20 minute talks in 17 minute [00:36:20] talks. Um, but, you know, understanding the dynamics of the group and [00:36:25] I was explaining to someone, if you and another dentist are at the bar [00:36:30] talking about the Seychelles, that’s work. Yeah, [00:36:35] that is work.

Ben Barter: 100%.

Payman Langroudi: There’s nothing about that that isn’t work. Yeah. [00:36:40] You may you may think talking about the Seychelles isn’t work, but two business [00:36:45] owners talking about switching off and where they would switch off in the same industry [00:36:50] is massive. And you know, that conversation is going in different directions isn’t just [00:36:55] about the, you know, surfboards of Seychelles. Yeah. Um, but, but [00:37:00] understanding that fact, yeah, it’s the same reason all our events, we have a social element, You know that our [00:37:05] composite hands on course, we have a social element for the night time [00:37:10] because that’s when people ask real questions. Yeah.

Ben Barter: Yeah. I think the better [00:37:15] you understand somebody, the the easier it is to work with them, the better it is in sales. [00:37:20] Yeah, yeah. You’re going to be so much better at understanding how best to communicate with them. How, [00:37:25] but you know, how you can provide the best service to them. [00:37:30] And I think so much of it is based on the personal element.

Payman Langroudi: Have you [00:37:35] considered the application into single practices? It’s difficult. I think [00:37:40] I thought about it a lot. It’s difficult. But but it’s interesting that [00:37:45] that you can have a single practice owner make an appointment to see you from then [00:37:50] till then, even if it’s five minutes. Yeah, but it’s difficult.

Ben Barter: I think the difficulty [00:37:55] is, and it comes back to, you know, when you were talking about sponsors and how [00:38:00] important they are to the event. It’s about delivering [00:38:05] the right value. I think we in our experience, [00:38:10] we’ve always felt that the format that we run, it works so much better abroad because it’s not just [00:38:15] about the speed meetings, it’s about the overall experience that we’re [00:38:20] giving to people and that being memorable. And then in [00:38:25] turn, when you talk about those relationships, you know, when you’re having a conversation by [00:38:30] the bar about the Seychelles, like if you’re doing that at Ministry [00:38:35] of Sound in your case, or you’re doing this in Portugal in ours, like then [00:38:40] that becomes much more memorable, I think. And it is about where you’re doing [00:38:45] it as well. But the challenge that comes with that, doing it for single practices is we [00:38:50] would need for the sponsors to make it attractive to get so many of them to come. Yeah, that [00:38:55] from our point of view, we just haven’t found a way that we could make that work yet. [00:39:00] Now, that’s not to say that we would never do that because in all honesty, like [00:39:05] if you had asked me five years ago, would we be doing one for the, you know, 3 to [00:39:10] 10 practices probably would have said no. So these things can develop.

Payman Langroudi: What I’m saying [00:39:15] is that there is a qualified lead, if you like. Yeah. Yeah. Like, [00:39:20] so even if it’s a single practice owner. Yeah. Comparing it to when we go to, uh, the [00:39:25] huge, you know, Dental showcases and all that. Yeah. We spent loads of money on these [00:39:30] stands. Yeah. Proper money. And then, I [00:39:35] mean, you know, we want to see nurses, hygienists and students. We do. It’s [00:39:40] part of the reason we’re there. But if there was one section of my stand dedicated [00:39:45] to serious qualified leads who before even coming, had expressed an interest. [00:39:50] Yeah. Then that would make that that show way, [00:39:55] way, way more attractive from the from the sponsor side. Yeah. From the, from the trade [00:40:00] side because sometimes you don’t know who you’re dealing with. And it’s actually [00:40:05] the reason why forum and all of those works so well was that once in a while at [00:40:10] Dental showcase, someone would turn up who had 34 practices and you’d go, oh, let’s [00:40:15] sit down, and you’d say, oh, the whole thing was kind of worth it because of this one guy, which is [00:40:20] why forum does work.

Ben Barter: Yeah, exactly. Well, there’s always been, always [00:40:25] been the approach that you just need one good conversation.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ben Barter: And that I [00:40:30] think that’s, that’s the basis of it really. When you’ve got [00:40:35] people there with multiple practices, one good conversation with them can [00:40:40] give you a return on investment. And it’s about ensuring that [00:40:45] in order for us to maintain the quality over quantity approach, [00:40:50] that one good conversation could lead to somebody saying, I had a great experience, [00:40:55] or we hope that everybody has a great experience, but I had a great experience [00:41:00] and there’s some business to come out of it as well that’s going to help us [00:41:05] grow.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think there’s any mileage in charging the groups a little something, [00:41:10] I guess. I suppose they’re spending time and time is the [00:41:15] most valuable asset, right?

Ben Barter: Yeah. I mean, their time is pretty valuable and it’s incredible. [00:41:20] It’s increasingly valuable given the number of events out there, [00:41:25] I think. Um, so I think for us to go and charge [00:41:30] the groups, I think they’d be like, right, okay, well, I’ve got so many other events that I could go to. [00:41:35] I actually think that it’s now about, it’s not just, I think it will turn that it’s not just [00:41:40] they get to come for free. And it’s in Portugal, for example. It’s [00:41:45] like it’s got to deliver some value. I think, I think it really does. And I think that [00:41:50] this is putting everybody under pressure to, to make every [00:41:55] every moment well spent and worthwhile.

Payman Langroudi: I had a really interesting moment [00:42:00] where I was spending time with the groups in, um, Spain, [00:42:05] with the groups while they were about to go into [00:42:10] their meetings with the suppliers and listening to what they [00:42:15] were saying to each other about, oh, God, we’ve got another meeting now. Who’s going to go? Will you go? [00:42:20] No. You go. And remembering the previous [00:42:25] time I’d gone, uh, we’d spent so much money, man. I think in total, we’d spent [00:42:30] 16, £17,000. Right. To be there and to [00:42:35] hear the other side of it that like, it just it was painful to listen to, to say. [00:42:40] Yeah. Because I know how much pressure we were under to make it count. You know, [00:42:45] as a supplier. Yeah.

Ben Barter: Yeah. It’s not ideal, is it? It’s not what you [00:42:50] want to hear before you arrange the meeting. But then [00:42:55] that’s the perfect opportunity to turn them around, isn’t it? Of course. Let them have it.

Payman Langroudi: Of [00:43:00] course. I mean, you know, at the end of the day, business is all about solving these problems, [00:43:05] isn’t it?

Ben Barter: It is. Yeah. Yeah. And I think giving people something different in the in [00:43:10] the ones ones as well. I think I can understand it from a group point of view. If you’re getting [00:43:15] like, if I was just sitting through everybody whipping [00:43:20] out their laptop and giving me a 15 minute presentation on why my product [00:43:25] is so good that I would find that very draining. But if I had somebody come [00:43:30] in, say to me, right, okay, where are you struggling here? Like what? What are your biggest pain [00:43:35] points? Not related to my product necessarily, but you know, what have you guys, [00:43:40] what are you guys doing at the moment that you feel could be working better? How do you want to grow? And [00:43:45] does that fit into then what you’re offering? Yeah. Um, [00:43:50] and I think that’s a much better way of going about it.

Payman Langroudi: But I think one thing you guys have. Right. And [00:43:55] the format has right, which we really try to inject at Ministry of Sound, was that fun [00:44:00] is the number one priority. Fun is very important. Yeah. Yeah. Because like we said, [00:44:05] time is very important. If I’m spending my time getting on a plane, going all the way there. Yeah. [00:44:10] I must enjoy that time. It’s very, very, very important.

Ben Barter: Oh, yeah. If you’re coming [00:44:15] back and saying that was dry, then it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah.

Ben Barter: It’s not going to work.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly. But no, but you [00:44:20] go to a lot of Dental events. Yeah. Where fun isn’t built in or, you know, it’s [00:44:25] like you have to turn up as either James Bond or, um, Spider-Man.

Ben Barter: Which [00:44:30] ones that.

Payman Langroudi: You know, like it’s either fancy dress or [00:44:35] gala gala or whatever. I know the reasons why it happens. Yeah.

Ben Barter: But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:44:40] know what I mean? Like it’s difficult. It’s difficult to have fun or some people think fun shouldn’t be part of [00:44:45] it. You know, it’s almost like it’s in their head that work and fun can’t be in the same blurred [00:44:50] equation.

Ben Barter: Oh, [00:44:55] God, that’s such a shame. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I. Yeah, I think so. [00:45:00] Your Ministry of Sound event, it was two till two, right? Yeah. 2 [00:45:05] p.m. till 2 a.m..

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ben Barter: When do you reckon was the peak in terms of the number of people that [00:45:10] were there.

Payman Langroudi: Three. Three in the afternoon. But it was funny. [00:45:15] It was a lunch, a coffee break at 330. Um, and, [00:45:20] uh, we had the guy live playing, uh, Adagio for [00:45:25] strings on a girl, a girl live playing Adagio [00:45:30] for strings on the, on the, on the keyboards and the DJ mixing it in lights [00:45:35] going. But you know, an event, um, energy [00:45:40] is a big issue. Yeah. How do you sort of get the energy going? And in a place like you, [00:45:45] you literally push your buttons and you can change the energy in a, in a moment, you know? So [00:45:50] it was super cool. It was super cool. People were really enjoying themselves.

Ben Barter: Yeah, I bet, and also, [00:45:55] it’s the kind of thing that people really do remember. It’s so different. Yeah, yeah. That anyone [00:46:00] who’s there, they had a good conversation. Yeah. They’re going to remember that. [00:46:05] And I think as you say, you can change the energy. And that’s, that’s really [00:46:10] cool to have that ability and to be able to change it up that quickly [00:46:15] as well throughout a day is very good going.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:46:20] know, I told you before this thing the day before, I said I would never do this again. [00:46:25] Yeah. And the day after I was like, when are we going to do it again? You, you must go [00:46:30] through that continuously, right? You’ve got, you’ve got that sort of, you know, events business. [00:46:35]

Ben Barter: Yeah. So the problem is we have to do it again. Yeah. No choice. Yeah. No. [00:46:40] I say that’s a problem. Actually I we I [00:46:45] don’t really have that thought anymore. I think it’s more seeing through. [00:46:50] Three things with [00:46:55] a with a very critical eye and trying [00:47:00] to think about how are we going to do this better? How are we going to improve this process? And I think particularly [00:47:05] it comes down to the month before. And every time we’re saying, okay, how can [00:47:10] we improve this process so that it’s more streamlined and we feel more [00:47:15] relaxed, and therefore the attendees beforehand are going to feel [00:47:20] more relaxed and excited? And it’s something that we’ve consistently worked on. It’s something that we [00:47:25] was one of the first things that we thought about when we were coming up with the idea of [00:47:30] assembly in the first place, is, how do we make that as smooth as possible? Because that month [00:47:35] is what has the direct impact on the overall experience for, for [00:47:40] the attendees?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, definitely. I think one thing we looked at as well was that to [00:47:45] try and get away from the fact it’s one day or two days by, you know, pumping [00:47:50] the social media before and after, you know, making it for [00:47:55] from, from the sponsors perspective. Yeah. Yeah. More, more than just the [00:48:00] live event as their exposure to the market. Um, you [00:48:05] should look at it too. Yeah. You’ll be amazed. The number of, uh, you know, companies who just [00:48:10] haven’t got proper social media output, you know, and [00:48:15] just would love to have some social media output. You know.

Ben Barter: It’s, it’s [00:48:20] so important now. And LinkedIn is I mean, our team lives [00:48:25] on LinkedIn. We’re constantly on there. And whenever we put [00:48:30] stuff out, we get something back from it as well, which is great. I mean, we do have a focus on [00:48:35] we don’t want to be spamming because then we might not get the same return on [00:48:40] it. But how.

Payman Langroudi: Many people are.

Ben Barter: You know, it’s so important. There are there are five of us. Yeah. [00:48:45]

Payman Langroudi: Um, and how many events have you done so far? None at all.

Ben Barter: Or so the Dental Assembly in [00:48:50] September will be our first official one. Now, something that we have done [00:48:55] already, and I think it brings it back to talking about sponsor value as well and not [00:49:00] making it just two days. There’s the social media side. There’s also for us, we do two days [00:49:05] in a foreign country. We don’t have any touch points throughout the year [00:49:10] in um, you know, in London, for example. So we wanted to again, [00:49:15] with the new business with Dental Assembly, we wanted people to have multiple touch [00:49:20] points. Um, so they get that extra value from, I guess [00:49:25] hopefully in a while being like a member of Dental assembly. But, um, we did an [00:49:30] event, uh, at the shard in March and we got all [00:49:35] of our early supporters from across Dental. Um, the [00:49:40] petrol station, which we refer to as energy because a bit nicer term. [00:49:45] Um, and the veterinary industry. We bought all of them together and had a [00:49:50] drinks party. Um, and it was, it was brilliant. It was firstly, [00:49:55] it’s the first time that any of us have seen like multiple different industries come together, which was really cool. [00:50:00] And there was actually, weirdly enough, there was some, a bit of crossover there.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ben Barter: Um, [00:50:05] but also I think it was our first opportunity to say like, this is the standard that we want to set and [00:50:10] we, we want to be continually delivering, um, you know, [00:50:15] strong events in amazing venues and that will continue beyond as well. So we’ll do September, we’ll do [00:50:20] November, but we’ll have more drinks evenings throughout the year where if [00:50:25] people are around, they come along, they, you know, enjoy some free drinks in a great venue [00:50:30] and, and catch up with people that they know, maybe even meet new people as well. So [00:50:35] that’s what we’re trying to do with that.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a good idea.

Ben Barter: Yeah. Um, yeah, September [00:50:40] will be the first official one. Um, and it’s yeah, it’s getting close now.

Payman Langroudi: Looking [00:50:45] forward to it, man. Well, I’m looking forward to it.

Ben Barter: We’re we’re just about to announce. Very exciting. [00:50:50] Yeah. We’re looking forward to having you as, as chair.

Payman Langroudi: Um which that’s going [00:50:55] to be fun. That’s gonna be fun. So tell me, um, we like to talk about mistakes [00:51:00] on this pod. What comes to mind when I ask you about mistakes? It comes from that. [00:51:05] I don’t know if you’ve seen Black box thinking, which is about plane crashes.

Ben Barter: I [00:51:10] haven’t actually. No.

Payman Langroudi: So the idea is this when a plane crashes, they [00:51:15] want to know what went wrong. So they look at the black box and then they [00:51:20] figure out what went wrong. And then the key [00:51:25] point is they do it without blame.

Ben Barter: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, [00:51:30] then they share that information across the whole pilot community and [00:51:35] then they decide what are we going to do differently to stop something like that happening again? Yeah. [00:51:40] So that’s.

Ben Barter: Smart.

Payman Langroudi: That’s plane crashes. Yeah, but with medical mistakes, [00:51:45] it’s quite the opposite. It’s all about blame. Yeah. And so in [00:51:50] general, mistakes people don’t like to talk about. Um, but when they do talk [00:51:55] about it, the idea is that talk about mistakes that we’ve made so we can all learn from them. [00:52:00] Obviously, if you were a dentist, we’d be talking about some clinical error.

Ben Barter: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But what [00:52:05] comes to mind if I say errors? What mistakes have you made that others can learn from, let’s say in business or whatever? [00:52:10] In life?

Ben Barter: Tons of them. Um. Well, I’ll. Yeah. [00:52:15] Um, I think. I [00:52:20] think probably a life one is, [00:52:25] is a better one start. And, and this might sound a bit strange coming [00:52:30] from, uh, you know, a founder of a business, it is, uh, [00:52:35] just about to go past its first full year of operating. But I think from [00:52:40] previous experience, I think letting. I don’t think it’s a good [00:52:45] idea for people to let work [00:52:50] take over their life. I think there’s more to it than that. And [00:52:55] I think in the you know, when we started skin, there was certainly [00:53:00] a period of 6 to 12 months where I let it dictate every single part of my life. [00:53:05] And obviously, you’ve got to be hugely invested [00:53:10] to start a business. Um, but [00:53:15] there is also more to it. And I think certainly as far as I’m concerned, [00:53:20] I do better if I’ve got a bit more balance, if [00:53:25] I’m putting every single thing and all my focus and all my time, all my energy [00:53:30] into, you know, work.

Payman Langroudi: Go on. What were you doing? Were [00:53:35] you spending weekends at the office and this sort of thing?

Ben Barter: I think it [00:53:40] was. Yeah. I mean, there was that, um, and [00:53:45] it wasn’t necessarily always about the number of hours as well. It was about the amount of time that it would occupy. [00:53:50]

Payman Langroudi: Brain hours.

Ben Barter: In my mind. Yeah. And the knock on effects [00:53:55] of that, but also the decisions that I would make.

Payman Langroudi: So did you feel like it affected your health, your [00:54:00] mental health? What what was the sort of effect of it?

Ben Barter: I think it certainly [00:54:05] had me in a less positive frame of mind. Yeah. Certainly. Because especially [00:54:10] when things are things are quite tough and it’s always tough starting a business. [00:54:15]

Payman Langroudi: They always it’s very tough.

Ben Barter: So letting that have an impact [00:54:20] on, on everything outside rather than seeing like [00:54:25] having that balance so that outside.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the answer to that problem, you [00:54:30] could say, all right, spend less time at work and more time at home or something. But [00:54:35] I find the answer to that problem itself is experience of you’ve [00:54:40] seen so many problems come and go that then they stop having the effect [00:54:45] on you that you thought at the beginning. You just haven’t seen enough problems.

Ben Barter: That’s [00:54:50] that’s that’s fair. Yeah. And I think once you’ve seen.

Payman Langroudi: It come and go and, you know, [00:54:55] some toothpaste manufacturer didn’t do what they said they would do and it’s not coming on time. And [00:55:00] I remember the first time that happened, I felt my whole world had fallen apart like it had. Right. [00:55:05] Yeah. We had customers we couldn’t supply to you. And someone had stolen our money on the other side. Something [00:55:10] like this. I thought the whole world was turning upside down. And then once you’ve been 20 years [00:55:15] of these problems, you. I think it’s like a roll with the punches kind of move. [00:55:20]

Ben Barter: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, it’s a problem, but you kind of. You’re carrying on. [00:55:25] Yeah.

Ben Barter: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: So you made a mistake sort of managing [00:55:30] those moving parts, huh?

Ben Barter: I think so, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what would you [00:55:35] have done differently? Not gotten yourself so down about things.

Ben Barter: I would have had more variety in my life, [00:55:40] I think.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I see, I see I became your singular focus.

Ben Barter: Yeah. Um, I think having such [00:55:45] a singular focus doesn’t work for me. And I know that it does. It does work for some people, but I think [00:55:50] I need a bit of variety sometimes. Like you can work on a problem for half [00:55:55] a day, take an hour break from it and come back and it’s [00:56:00] just like, okay, actually, this is how we should.

Payman Langroudi: Actually helps.

Ben Barter: You get past.

Payman Langroudi: The problem. Yeah.

Ben Barter: And by not [00:56:05] actually working on it, the problem is solved. Kind of sounds [00:56:10] contradictory.

Payman Langroudi: But it makes sense. It makes sense. It’s the, you know, the I said this, you know, [00:56:15] Archimedes theory of water displacement. You [00:56:20] do.

Ben Barter: You.

Payman Langroudi: Do. No, you do, you do, you do the guy, the king told him, how do I know this crown is gold? [00:56:25] And he was wearing. His wife told him, look, take a bath. Yeah. And then the crown fell [00:56:30] in the bath and water level raised. And then he ran through the streets Them shouting, Eureka! [00:56:35] Eureka! Because he figured out the density of the metal would move the wall [00:56:40] anyway, that. The point is, the wife told him, take a bath. Yeah, yeah, he. [00:56:45] You know, he relaxed for a second. Um, [00:56:50] and it’s important. It is important. And I hear what you’re saying about some people [00:56:55] thrive on the on the hyper focus. There are people like that, you know, definitely. Um, [00:57:00] I like it, but not not a lot. [00:57:05] I’d like another mistake.

Ben Barter: You want another mistake? Yeah. Do [00:57:10] you want do you want personal or professional? Here.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll leave [00:57:15] it up to you.

Ben Barter: I mean, I can get. I [00:57:20] know I can get quite specific, um.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever [00:57:25] you think.

Ben Barter: But. I [00:57:30] think. Yeah. [00:57:35] I mean, I’ll give you an example of, I don’t know, a, [00:57:40] a mistake that we’ve made at an event. Yeah, [00:57:45] yeah. Um, yeah, I can, I mean, there’s so many examples of that, like [00:57:50] opening.

Payman Langroudi: Up.

Ben Barter: A can of worms. It’s, it’s very difficult to [00:57:55] choose. But and also, I think this comes back to what we were talking about before about [00:58:00] trusting your gut.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben Barter: So, um, we, we [00:58:05] were, we were running an event in Dubai and before the official [00:58:10] event started on the morning of, there was going to be a site visit to this um [00:58:15] petrol station that was 15 minutes, 20 minutes drive away. Um [00:58:20] and we’d organised a big bus to take people and kind of the demand of [00:58:25] it would normally be kind of 20 or 30 people, but actually we’d had huge demand and I think we were expecting [00:58:30] somewhere between 80 and 100. So, um, you know, it was, [00:58:35] it had become a much bigger deal than it, that sort of thing normally would be. And this [00:58:40] is in amongst setting up for the official event as well. And um, we get [00:58:45] to the morning of and I’m like, okay, I’m just going to check in with the bus driver, um, [00:58:50] about an hour before and I give them a call and we have a chat and he’s like, and he’s [00:58:55] struggling to understand what I’m talking about in the beginning, where the booking came from and stuff. [00:59:00] And, and we seem to have worked it out, but just in my gut, I was like, I’m not sure that [00:59:05] that booking is there. I’m not sure that they’re, they’ve got this anyway. [00:59:10] I, I’m like, there’s so much to stress about. I’m just, I’m just gonna leave that. [00:59:15] He said he’s going to come.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Ben Barter: And we get to kind of ten minutes before [00:59:20] and I’m like, I’m just going to call him again. Just check. And at that point he discloses [00:59:25] that actually there’s not been any booking there. And the earliest that they could send somebody [00:59:30] would be in an hour’s time. So I’m like, that [00:59:35] is an absolute nightmare we’ve suddenly got. And the lobby is now filling up [00:59:40] with all of these people expecting to get this bus 20 minute drive away. Um, and [00:59:45] so we’re like, well, shit, what do we do? Um, so we just start. Fortunately, [00:59:50] we’re kind of quite central Dubai. So we just start bundling people into taxis and [00:59:55] get getting them over there. And we managed to get them there. All right. But because of all that stress [01:00:00] going on and then the setup that we needed to do, I just went on my own to [01:00:05] this site visit and then I’m at a petrol station. I’m like this in the middle of nowhere now, [01:00:10] and how am I going to get people back? Like suddenly we need like loads [01:00:15] of taxis to show up and it’s just not going to happen. So I’m desperately, while we’re going [01:00:20] through this site visit, meant to be on the health and safety front as well, managing [01:00:25] 100 people on my own and also trying to sort out the the [01:00:30] bus and.

Payman Langroudi: I’m getting PTSD just hearing this story.

Ben Barter: It does actually turn up [01:00:35] after they have a short window to wait, but it’s yeah, I mean, that that was a case of the mistake [01:00:40] was I had this gut feeling that it wasn’t right and I should have doubled down on that. [01:00:45]

Payman Langroudi: I think one thing with events is there’s a, there are things that have to go right. And [01:00:50] there’s a kind of in your head, a percentage chance that that thing’s going to go wrong. [01:00:55] And if that percentage is more than 20%, [01:01:00] you’ve got to have contingencies for that thing, isn’t it? [01:01:05] And contingency, I it’s the first time I’ve considered contingencies. But but they’re really [01:01:10] important. You know, if if the percentage chance of that thing going wrong is like 40% [01:01:15] contingencies are everything. Right? So, you know, you have to what if it. Yeah. [01:01:20]

Ben Barter: Yeah. If you haven’t asked that question enough, there’s gonna be a big problem. [01:01:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. What would you say is your greatest resource? Like [01:01:30] if you want to, you know, sort of important but not [01:01:35] urgent kind of area where you want to learn about your work. What would be your [01:01:40] resource? Where do you look for business sort of help or I don’t know what you’re into. Are you into [01:01:45] AI or.

Ben Barter: Uh, yes. Yes, but [01:01:50] I think it can be really overused. So I think there is a [01:01:55] balance that needs to be achieved with it. And, um, [01:02:00] I’m certainly on the kind of less reliant end of the scale, but also [01:02:05] seen like some people who use it just all the time and it kind of becomes [01:02:10] almost a way of managing your life, your work, everything. Um, but [01:02:15] AI, I think in terms of learning is actually is, is fantastic. [01:02:20] Um, because I think the way that it can summarise things and how it can guide [01:02:25] in in certain directions, and I can read something [01:02:30] and just ask it a question, which often you’ve got [01:02:35] to go to another person to be able to do that. And obviously that is the best still [01:02:40] is the best way of doing it. But if I had 15 minutes to spare, [01:02:45] and I want to learn something about what’s going on in the dental industry this [01:02:50] week, to be able to use that as a resource to.

Payman Langroudi: But is that to understand? Is that where you go?

Ben Barter: That [01:02:55] would be where I would go. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is there not like an Instagram page, a YouTube or [01:03:00] something, a book?

Ben Barter: There’s a book to be honest. Oh, favourite.

Payman Langroudi: Book? I [01:03:05] mean like business book. Um, novel. Favourite favourite. How to.

Ben Barter: Yeah, [01:03:10] I’m glad you asked me that question because I’ve read shockingly few books in my life. [01:03:15] Um, but I think it’s quite a niche one, but I [01:03:20] think maybe one of the most memorable Would [01:03:25] be that I was on holiday in Greece when I was, I think, just [01:03:30] left school. Just left university.

Payman Langroudi: On holidays when people tend to pick up books. It is. It is. [01:03:35]

Ben Barter: It’s the only time where I would ever pick up a book. Um, but yeah, I just left [01:03:40] university and was kind of thinking about what I wanted to get out of the [01:03:45] next stage of life. Yeah. Um, and, you know, starting a business, being a big [01:03:50] part of that. And I read, um, I read Duncan Bannatyne autobiography [01:03:55] and it just, it had me completely gripped for [01:04:00] 2 or 3 days. And I think it just kind [01:04:05] of maybe gave me a bit of realisation of like, yeah, I really want to start a business [01:04:10] that that’s what.

Payman Langroudi: I.

Ben Barter: Really want to want to do.

Payman Langroudi: You went on Dragon’s Den, right? Always [01:04:15] interesting. In Dragon’s Den. I always find it interesting how different dragons have different [01:04:20] appetites for different risks and different opportunities. And that [01:04:25] Ballantine man, he wants to put the minimum in and get maximum out. Very, [01:04:30] very greedy, but probably the source of his success as well.

Ben Barter: Smart. [01:04:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well, it’s been a massive pleasure, man. I’m gonna [01:04:40] end it with the same question that I ask everyone at the end. It’s a fantasy dinner [01:04:45] party. Three guests, dead or alive.

Ben Barter: Oh, such [01:04:50] a difficult question. That one. Um, and I feel like it always it can [01:04:55] often change the answer to this as well. But I [01:05:00] would say first off, I’m, I’m a big football fan, um, [01:05:05] big Liverpool fan. And I would because.

Payman Langroudi: Your dad.

Ben Barter: Was to [01:05:10] know actually.

Payman Langroudi: How did you become Liverpool fan?

Ben Barter: Just really random. Um, [01:05:15] but I joined a new school when I was five years old I think. And [01:05:20] um everybody there was really into football, and I barely even knew it was a [01:05:25] sport. And the people that I was trying to make friends with were asking, who do you support? So I [01:05:30] just turned the question back on them. I said, who do you support? And he said, Liverpool. One guy. And [01:05:35] I said, oh, me too. Yeah. And that was that. And I think within [01:05:40] two years I had become absolutely obsessed and he wasn’t [01:05:45] into football at all. So it’s really weird. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So who’s your Liverpool hero.

Ben Barter: Uh [01:05:50] Jurgen Klopp. I think he well [01:05:55] he’s he’s managed the team. That’s uh yeah. Given [01:06:00] me a lot of joy. Um but I think just as it’s actually as a person, I [01:06:05] think like he’s a ridiculously seems like a ridiculously good [01:06:10] leader. He’s very charismatic man. I think he’d be great fun and [01:06:15] also really interesting and yeah, very good teeth. Yeah [01:06:20] yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And he’s he’s going to become Germany’s, uh, [01:06:25] manager.

Ben Barter: So I’m hearing. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which yeah, my lucky, my two best friends are [01:06:30] Liverpool fans and they also adore Jurgen Klopp. How could you. I thought you [01:06:35] were going to say like I don’t know Bill Shankly or something. No no no dog [01:06:40] leash. Okay, cool. So who else?

Ben Barter: Um. I [01:06:45] definitely have my mum. My mum? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is she still with us? [01:06:50]

Ben Barter: No, she passed away last year, sadly. So definitely have her. [01:06:55] I think that’s enough, to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:07:00] might as well include Gandhi or Einstein or God.

Ben Barter: Could be.

Payman Langroudi: Who could be.

Ben Barter: The plus [01:07:05] one.

Payman Langroudi: Mums come with Gandhi. Yeah.

Ben Barter: Yeah. [01:07:10] Not a bad shout. Um, I tell I tell you what. Actually this is probably [01:07:15] not one that would would like stand the test of time, but right now, um, [01:07:20] I’ve got a lot of time for Pedro Sanchez, the Spanish prime minister. [01:07:25] Yeah, yeah, I think he’s a great guy. I like the way he stands.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [01:07:30] I liked him, I liked him, I liked what he was doing about Gaza and all that. Um, but [01:07:35] then I spoke to two different Spanish people, and [01:07:40] both of them were really like, uh, I don’t know, they were saying he’s a bit too left wing or something, [01:07:45] something like that. I wasn’t really paying attention. But you’re right from the outside, without talking to [01:07:50] these two, I really liked it the way he would. Just like principle that which you don’t see much anymore. [01:07:55]

Ben Barter: Yeah. I think he’s not afraid to speak up for what he believes in. And I think it’s really like I can [01:08:00] understand why people wouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ben Barter: Why it’s hard, I think. [01:08:05] But I’ve got a lot more time for people who do.

Payman Langroudi: Where did you grow up?

Ben Barter: Um, [01:08:10] I grew up in the countryside in Buckinghamshire. Oh, yeah. What, [01:08:15] like.

Payman Langroudi: The sort of the stockbroker belt bit. Or which bit [01:08:20] was it?

Ben Barter: I’m not familiar with that part. No. Um. Kind of between Buckinghamshire and Northamptonshire. [01:08:25] Oxfordshire. That that sort of area. Okay. Um. Yeah. Really nice. Like [01:08:30] countryside. Spent an awful lot of time outside. Um and.

Payman Langroudi: Until [01:08:35] you were 18 you were out there.

Ben Barter: Until I was 18. Yeah. Yeah. Um [01:08:40] and then.

Payman Langroudi: Uni was where.

Ben Barter: Uni was Oxford Brookes. So I didn’t exactly go [01:08:45] far. Um which was great. Yeah. Because I was like an hour away from home. Perfect. But [01:08:50] I had my independence.

Payman Langroudi: In a way, I guess. Right. It’s going to be, it’s going to be a great uni [01:08:55] tail.

Ben Barter: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Um, no, I loved it there. And to be [01:09:00] honest, it’s probably somewhere that I would consider, like, ending up. Really? Yeah. [01:09:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful.

Ben Barter: Great place to live. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And big enough as well. You know, I like Cambridge, but it’s small. [01:09:10] Yeah. You know, you can’t get everything there. Yeah. Oxford’s a proper city isn’t it?

Ben Barter: It is, it [01:09:15] is. Um. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Traffic jams.

Ben Barter: A lot of traffic jams. [01:09:20] Yeah. Yeah. I think they’re closed. They’re closing even more roads. It’s like you can barely drive in there [01:09:25] anymore.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive pleasure, man. Thank you so much for coming all the way.

Ben Barter: Well, thank you.

Payman Langroudi: For having me. Best of luck. [01:09:30] I know you’ve been in this industry a few years, but at the end of the day, it’s your first few [01:09:35] years in a business and you need all the luck you can get in that [01:09:40] point in time, right?

Ben Barter: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: I look back at that time I called firefighting, firefighting. [01:09:45] It just feels like it was one fire after another. Yeah. So really, I like what you’re doing with it. Well [01:09:50] done man.

Ben Barter: Thank you, I appreciate that.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure [01:09:55] you tune in for future episodes. Hit subscribe in iTunes or Google [01:10:00] Play or whatever platform it is. And you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you [01:10:05] would, um, give us.

Payman Langroudi: A six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. That’s [01:10:10] what I always leave my Uber driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.