Payman Langroudi: If a Dental event isn’t super fun, stay at home. Don’t waste your weekend. September 18th [00:00:05] and 19th downtown is flipping the script. Not only an insane Line-Up. Probably the best in the [00:00:10] UK this year, but also a festival atmosphere and a super cool, enlightened party on the Friday [00:00:15] night. My talk on Friday will be in the business hub all about pure practice growth [00:00:20] with whitening, and every single attendee will walk out with a free enlightened kit. On Saturday, I’ll be interviewing [00:00:25] one of my all time heroes, Galip Gorrell, about his crazy, veneer cutting [00:00:30] robot. See you there. Let’s learn, connect and enjoy together. Downtown on September [00:00:35] 18th and 19th.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:40] is Dental [00:00:45] Leaders. The podcast where you get to go one on [00:00:50] one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:55] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:01:00]

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Anita Pradhan onto the [00:01:05] podcast. Anita is a Nepalese dentist, not Nepalese [00:01:10] trained, Indian trained. Is that right? Indian trained? Yes, yes. But I met you through an ulcer. Is [00:01:15] that right? Yes. Yeah. Um, who is over in the UK now? But your [00:01:20] main focus now is training with the Phoenix Dental Academy, [00:01:25] mainly. Ori. What does Ori stand for?

Anita Pradan: Overseas registration. [00:01:30] Examination?

Payman Langroudi: Oh of course. So [00:01:35] right now it’s a hot topic, right? Because we don’t have enough dentists. And [00:01:40] so people are coming from the outside and the auras are famously [00:01:45] difficult examination. Yeah. Um, how did you get into education [00:01:50] instead of just being a dentist?

Anita Pradan: It was not really intended, [00:01:55] but I did my Ori as well.

Payman Langroudi: Which year was it?

Anita Pradan: Oh my God, that was very [00:02:00] long ago. So I did a Completed My Aura Part 2 in 2012.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:02:05]

Anita Pradan: And it was quite a difficult journey despite [00:02:10] being from a Dental family. My dad’s a dentist as well.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really? [00:02:15]

Anita Pradan: And he practices here in the UK.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really?

Anita Pradan: Yes. Um, but despite all [00:02:20] the advantages I had, I think it was still quite a challenging exam and [00:02:25] I didn’t have the best support. And it was quite frustrating because [00:02:30] it took me, I started my journey in 2007.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Anita Pradan: So you [00:02:35] can see how many years it took me. Um, but I thought that if I ever [00:02:40] had an opportunity to guide other overseas dentists like myself, [00:02:45] then I would definitely take that opportunity.

Payman Langroudi: That’s how it came about.

Anita Pradan: That’s how it came about. Yeah. [00:02:50] But I thought, I’m going to do it, you know, for a couple of months, maybe a year, [00:02:55] because I really loved clinical dentistry and I never thought I could [00:03:00] teach. I never taught before. And yeah, that’s [00:03:05] what inspired me to begin my journey teaching. And then I really enjoyed [00:03:10] it. Um, I enjoyed it so much that I can’t stop. So [00:03:15] yeah, so here we are.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s go through Ori itself. Yeah. Understand there’s some [00:03:20] bits of it you can only repeat four times or something. Yes. Is that right. Four times. Yeah. [00:03:25]

Anita Pradan: So each part. So it has two parts.

Payman Langroudi: Two parts. Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. So the part one [00:03:30] is computer based. And the second part is like on phantom heads. And there’s a lot [00:03:35] of communication skills or skills and treatment planning medical emergencies. So [00:03:40] each part you can repeat four times, but within a span of five years [00:03:45] only. Yeah. So if you can’t.

Payman Langroudi: If you can’t do part two within [00:03:50] five years, it’s all over.

Anita Pradan: It’s over.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You can’t start again. Do part 2.1 again. Oh, well. [00:03:55]

Anita Pradan: I mean, you have an alternative route, the LDS.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: But I think [00:04:00] once someone starts that journey giving part one and preparing for part two, I think [00:04:05] if you can’t complete it within the five years, it’s quite disheartening. Um, yeah, [00:04:10] but I know quite a lot of people who have not made it in the oh three and [00:04:15] then gone and done the LDS and got their registration. Yeah. [00:04:20]

Payman Langroudi: And what is what’s the LDS route? What’s the difference?

Anita Pradan: So that’s why it’s from [00:04:25] the Royal College. You get a diploma as well at the end of it. Um, it has three [00:04:30] parts instead of two. Um the basic structure of the exam is quite similar, but [00:04:35] the LDS is more clinical based. So I think people who [00:04:40] are like a lot of like, you know, hands on clinical type people will prefer the LDS route. [00:04:45] It’s, it’s easy to navigate because you’re thinking more clinically. Um, [00:04:50] but Ori is quite rigid. So it’s like more textbook kind of preparation. [00:04:55]

Payman Langroudi: Um, but you can do one without the other. Nothing to do with each other, you know.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. [00:05:00] So both will lead to registration with the GDC.

Payman Langroudi: And what about [00:05:05] this other route that people come in and become hygienists?

Anita Pradan: Oh, yeah. So that they [00:05:10] had it for a while. Now. We don’t have that route anymore.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? That’s gone.

Anita Pradan: That’s gone. But we [00:05:15] did help quite a lot of our own candidates when, [00:05:20] you know, when when there was Covid, obviously there was no exams. So a lot of them registered registered [00:05:25] through that route as hygienists or therapists.

Payman Langroudi: Without exams.

Anita Pradan: Without exams. But [00:05:30] it’s quite a tough application process.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Anita Pradan: Um, and it’s quite rigorously, [00:05:35] uh, marked by the GDC. They go through everything and then they give the registration. [00:05:40] So we have quite a lot of dentists from overseas who are now.

Payman Langroudi: They become therapists and [00:05:45] then then do the or if they want to be a dentist.

Anita Pradan: If they want to be a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Or otherwise, it stays therapist [00:05:50] Yes. Hygienists. Yes. Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. We have quite a lot of [00:05:55] our past delegates who attended our training who have now they’re [00:06:00] working as therapists and doing really, really well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: You know, if they’re earning nine, [00:06:05] ten grand a month, they’re like, why do we need to go and sit there and have. [00:06:10] Obviously, it’s a much more like, you know, there’s much more litigation.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:06:15]

Anita Pradan: The scope of practice is larger and they’re like more risks. So I think they’re [00:06:20] happier.

Payman Langroudi: Therapist led care is becoming a big thing in the NHS I’ve noticed. Yeah. [00:06:25] But we’ve also we’ve got someone coming to that event, uh, Amber Aplin, that if you come across her, [00:06:30] she’s got this thing about therapist led private dentistry. And her idea [00:06:35] is that if therapists are trained to the same level as dentists in, you [00:06:40] know, post-graduate. Yes. Then they should charge the same as dentists.

Anita Pradan: Yeah, I think [00:06:45] so.

Payman Langroudi: And from the, you know, from the practice perspective, obviously it works very well because they pay them an hourly rate [00:06:50] and then they can charge as much as a dentist charges. And then that frees the dentist [00:06:55] to do the sort of the crown and bridge and exactly higher value work. So [00:07:00] who has to take the O.R. right now? What’s the European Union story? Like, if I’ve qualified [00:07:05] in Spain, can I.

Anita Pradan: Go? No. You have to take the O.R..

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Already?

Anita Pradan: Yeah. [00:07:10] Uh, a lot of the countries. You do have to take the O.R.. I think there’s still some exempt countries [00:07:15] and some exempt universities, but it’s, again, you have to apply to get [00:07:20] that exemption. So you still have an evaluation. It’s not a, you know, [00:07:25] automatic automatic. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But so at what point did that change.

Anita Pradan: The EU [00:07:30] uh well after Brexit, but they did give some time. No, no, they did give. [00:07:35]

Payman Langroudi: Some kind of recently.

Anita Pradan: Yes. It’s very recently.

Payman Langroudi: So so then there’s loads of people who don’t get into dental school [00:07:40] in the UK or don’t want to get into dental school and they go and study in Spain. They have to do re.

Anita Pradan: Now [00:07:45] not all of them. So they. But they do have to do the same. It used to be [00:07:50] known as plv, right. So a training like v t training for overseas, [00:07:55] uh, qualified clinicians, they still have to go through that process. Um, [00:08:00] so one maximum of one year under mentorship. But again, now, [00:08:05] because obviously because we don’t have enough dentists, even that time frame [00:08:10] depends upon each individual of how much clinical experience they have, um, [00:08:15] their competency, they evaluate all that and then they, [00:08:20] they tell you what time frame you need to spend under mentorship. So [00:08:25] a lot of the clinicians still have to do that period, even though they don’t [00:08:30] have to do the or they still have to spend that time under mentorship. It’s quite [00:08:35] difficult to get those jobs, to be honest, especially as, you know, newly qualified dentists, [00:08:40] even from the EU. Um, the practices of course are looking at previous [00:08:45] work experience. And when they see that you are newly qualified, [00:08:50] um, they don’t want to give you the job.

Payman Langroudi: So although it’s [00:08:55] kind of disconnect between the number of dentists that we need and [00:09:00] allowing dentists to come in and fill those roles, like if you were the queen of the world, [00:09:05] what would you change?

Anita Pradan: I think in terms of, uh, in [00:09:10] terms of this whole process of overseas clinicians coming and working here, [00:09:15] um, I think there’s a big void of mentors who are going to, [00:09:20] you know, train the new clinicians may not be willing to I mean, they may [00:09:25] not be new clinicians. You know, there are different categories. Like there might be someone who’s well qualified [00:09:30] number of years of clinical experience abroad, but they are now navigating the NHS [00:09:35] system. You know, our rules and regulations here, but no [00:09:40] one’s willing to give any of their time to train overseas clinicians. [00:09:45] Young clinicians are the like, you know, the most at [00:09:50] disadvantage because they don’t have the clinical experience. So no one wants to [00:09:55] take them. No one wants to spend time training them. So I think if we were to have a [00:10:00] really ideal world, we would have to have practices which were dedicated [00:10:05] to mentoring, you know, and they would have maybe like a six month period [00:10:10] where they would have like really intense mentoring and then they go out [00:10:15] and, you know, they can practice with more confidence with maybe not as much mentorship, [00:10:20] but the mentorship that that is provided. Now, whenever they have a problem, they can approach [00:10:25] someone, their senior clinicians. So I think that would be like an ideal, you know.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:10:30] sometimes you hear stories of those dentists being sort of exploited.

Anita Pradan: Oh my goodness. [00:10:35]

Payman Langroudi: That’s a big thing, right? Because because they’ve got no experience, they’re coming. They’ve [00:10:40] got nothing on paper really that that sets them apart. And then you [00:10:45] get the kind of on the other side, the principal that wants to yes, exploit type [00:10:50] of stories. Like what a terrible stories that you’ve heard. Because I heard I read some [00:10:55] awful stuff.

Anita Pradan: We have awful stories. I have a personal one. Oh, really? Yes. So obviously [00:11:00] I gave my all and then I was quite keen to start my clinical practice. [00:11:05] Yeah. Um, fortunately, I hadn’t stopped working more than a couple of months [00:11:10] when I applied. Um, I got an opportunity, [00:11:15] an interview in London at one of the practices, um, and I went for the interview, [00:11:20] which was, it was very late in the evening in the [00:11:25] winter time, so it was dark and I was already quite anxious. The [00:11:30] area was very, very poorly lit. The practice, it [00:11:35] was so dimly lit. I was like, am I in the right place? So the principal dentist, [00:11:40] he came out, had a chat. It was not really an interview. It was just a very [00:11:45] short chat. And then he offered me the job and he said, well, it’s a three [00:11:50] year contract and you’ll be paid a monthly salary, 1500 [00:11:55] per month.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s.

Anita Pradan: It. Yeah. That’s it.

Payman Langroudi: Less [00:12:00] than 50.

Anita Pradan: Yes. And, um, and if you leave before [00:12:05] your three year term, you’ll have to pay 15,000 per year.

Payman Langroudi: Wow. [00:12:10]

Anita Pradan: And of course I had to decline. [00:12:15] So I, I, you know, obviously politely thanked him for the opportunity and said, [00:12:20] um, I don’t think it will suit me because I need to move away from home. So I don’t [00:12:25] think I can cover my expenses in London for that amount. And, um, [00:12:30] but I was grateful. And he was so angry.

Payman Langroudi: That you didn’t [00:12:35] jump at that chance.

Anita Pradan: He actually shouted at me and said that, you know, people [00:12:40] would have jumped at that opportunity and I was so ungrateful.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Anita Pradan: Uh, it [00:12:45] was quite shocking that, you know, you know, things like that happen. But since [00:12:50] then, of course, I’ve heard so many more stories. Um, people signing [00:12:55] contracts, which have, uh, they’re not hidden clauses, to be honest. They’re [00:13:00] quite clearly written on paper. And people have signed those without understanding [00:13:05] their contracts.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of things have people put in those contracts?

Anita Pradan: So one of my, um, [00:13:10] my batch mates from my university, so he signed a, he was not, [00:13:15] it was not as a dentist, but it was as a therapist, but he signed a contract [00:13:20] that tied him in for five years. And if he left [00:13:25] earlier than the five year term, then he would be paying back the projected [00:13:30] income for the remainder of the term.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Anita Pradan: I [00:13:35] mean, projected you could project anything.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: So [00:13:40] they were very, very high earning therapists in the practice who were making like 10,000 per month. [00:13:45] And if they were projecting based on them, he would.

Payman Langroudi: Owe [00:13:50] half £1 million or something.

Anita Pradan: So he [00:13:55] was so terrified because and the other thing is that the practice was making him do really [00:14:00] unethical things. Mhm. You know, things that patients didn’t require. And he [00:14:05] refused. And they were very, very upset with him. And it was just like a bad environment [00:14:10] for him to work. So he just wanted to leave. But his contract was obviously [00:14:15] what he signed was this. Um, so he end up just, he ended up [00:14:20] leaving and just going back, um, without telling the practice.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so he [00:14:25] didn’t, he didn’t fulfil that side of the contract. No. Uh, probably. Right. But [00:14:30] there should be some way of like some GDC way of not allowing that to happen, [00:14:35] right? I mean, I’ve heard I’ve heard of situations where the practice hasn’t paid [00:14:40] the person. And then when they’ve said, hey, where’s my money? Report them to the GDC, [00:14:45] um, for something that they made them do. Yes. So [00:14:50] that’s what’s so awful. The idea that, you know, you might be in this situation where you’re having to do unethical [00:14:55] work because you haven’t got the time or the equipment or the policy says such and such happens [00:15:00] this way. Yeah. So you’re putting yourself at massive risk from the patient side, and [00:15:05] there’s nothing you can do about it. You can’t leave. Yeah. Awful.

Anita Pradan: And I think like.

Payman Langroudi: Do [00:15:10] you cover this in your course as well.

Anita Pradan: We do.

Payman Langroudi: You should. Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. Because we have, you [00:15:15] know, starting an NHS practice. We have an introductory course. And in this we talk about all these [00:15:20] things like what, what problems you could face and how to tackle them because it’s [00:15:25] quite difficult as a, as a new clinician starting a new country, you’ve moved, [00:15:30] you’ve, you know, maybe taken a alone, sold everything that you had and you moved [00:15:35] and and you feel like you have to like you don’t have any other option. [00:15:40] And a lot of the time, you know, you feel like, um, there [00:15:45] is no way out. You can’t, you feel like you can’t speak against the practice [00:15:50] because they might report you for something. You might lose your job and your income. But [00:15:55] it’s such a sad situation.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: No, it’s really sad.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s so [00:16:00] funny because the funny is the wrong word. It’s so interesting that someone could be [00:16:05] an Indian graduate who is now practising dentistry in the UK and [00:16:10] on paper back home, or whatever their family or themselves. [00:16:15] This is an amazing thing. He’s a dentist, graduated now in the UK. Everything’s [00:16:20] going to be okay. Yeah. Whereas the reality of it could be much, much more difficult than [00:16:25] that. Yeah. It makes you sad to think that, you know, like dentists [00:16:30] and or dentist kind of suffering that can go on.

Anita Pradan: I know it’s [00:16:35] terrible. And obviously, you know, you see all these I’ve seen some of some of my delegates. [00:16:40] They they join practices. They, they, you know, they contact us to say that they are suffering. They [00:16:45] are going through all this. But on their Instagram, the story is very different. [00:16:50]

Payman Langroudi: Go on, go on, go on. How interesting.

Anita Pradan: You know, on Instagram, you see like, you know, they’re [00:16:55] having a nice life. They’re taking all these holidays abroad. You know, they’re [00:17:00] living in a nice place, driving a nice car. But the, the truth behind it is that they [00:17:05] are suffering. They’re struggling. And you can’t see that like, [00:17:10] you know, for, for other people who are aspiring to come to the UK, all they can see [00:17:15] is things that they see on social media.

Payman Langroudi: That’s so true, so misleading.

Anita Pradan: And [00:17:20] I feel sorry because then these people, they’re like, oh, let’s go, you know, we’ll have a great life. [00:17:25] And of course you can. There are many clinicians who have great lives.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me the best story [00:17:30] you’ve heard. Like so. So do you know? Do you know Sandeep Kumar? Yes. He came over, [00:17:35] um, as an Indian graduate. Didn’t even speak English. [00:17:40] He said. He said he was very weak on English. He became a dental nurse and, [00:17:45] uh, swept the floor of the dental practice and all of that. And [00:17:50] eventually he had. Well, I don’t know if you know about him. He’s [00:17:55] a massive chain of dental practices and the biggest NHS contract in the Midlands. [00:18:00] And the My Smile network and yes, all of that. Do you have stories like that? You must [00:18:05] have a couple of guys.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. So um so of course, like I’ve been teaching for a [00:18:10] long time now. Yeah. Um, this is my 13th year, so I’ve seen like maybe five, 6000 [00:18:15] overseas dentists.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anita Pradan: So some of them of course still keep in touch and [00:18:20] um, a lot of them have their own practices now.

Payman Langroudi: Um, that must make you feel proud.

Anita Pradan: Very [00:18:25] like, and then when they call you to say, you know, can you come for my practice opening? [00:18:30] Like, you know, I couldn’t have done this without you. It feels amazing. And I think that’s what keeps me going, [00:18:35] you know, to see that I am making a difference.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a [00:18:40] funny thing, isn’t it? Like that, the non-measurable things that make such [00:18:45] a difference, like all the way from as a dentist, it might be the patient says, thank you. [00:18:50] Yes. In a really, you know, genuine way from a dentist [00:18:55] perspective, that’s way more valuable than the money he gave you.

Anita Pradan: The money is.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. [00:19:00] It almost doesn’t make sense. Right? Yeah. And then the stuff you’re saying here, I think [00:19:05] of it in mini Smile makeover. At the end of the course, someone gives you a hug and says you were [00:19:10] brilliant. Or this was the best weekend or something.

Anita Pradan: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Non-measurable stuff. [00:19:15] Yeah. And especially in business, I find a lot of times people put everything down to numbers and measurable. [00:19:20]

Anita Pradan: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Things. And and sometimes the real magic [00:19:25] in a business and a product and service is the stuff you can’t really [00:19:30] measure.

Anita Pradan: Exactly. I definitely think that 100% that’s that’s very, very true. [00:19:35] So one of my, uh, my delegates, so he’s, he’s my friend [00:19:40] now as well. So he did his, uh, so he did his LDS exam. And that [00:19:45] was quite a number of years ago, maybe around 2000 and maybe [00:19:50] 1314. I just started teaching and, um, he’s [00:19:55] opening his sixth practice now.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Anita Pradan: So it’s so amazing to see, like, [00:20:00] you know, and he came from Pakistan with nothing with a massive loan. [00:20:05] So his parents had sold their land to pay for his exams [00:20:10] and his, uh, you know, airfare and all that. And he [00:20:15] was suffering with quite a lot of health problems as well.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Anita Pradan: And [00:20:20] he struggled when he was giving the exam. And obviously at that time when I was teaching, [00:20:25] I was earning per day. And, um, you know, to me, like, even [00:20:30] if I had ten, 12 won, it didn’t really make a difference. And we had a lot of free classes for, [00:20:35] for this particular person. And he passed the exam and, uh, he started [00:20:40] working somewhere, didn’t hear from him for quite a number of years. And then suddenly one day he [00:20:45] was like, you know what? I completely, uh, you know, forgot to contact you, but you’re [00:20:50] always on my mind. And I’ve opened my second practice, and now he’s opening [00:20:55] his sixth practice.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Anita Pradan: And doing really, really well. It’s so amazing to see. [00:21:00] It’s it’s just. And then you feel like I try to [00:21:05] remember, like, did I really contribute so much? Because it’s [00:21:10] like, I couldn’t have done this without you. Without you, this day would never have come.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:21:15] interesting because I, I go around dental practices sometimes teaching them about [00:21:20] teeth whitening. Yeah. And sometimes the person completely [00:21:25] takes what you’re saying and implements it. It’s [00:21:30] actually not very often. Maybe I’m not the best teacher, but some people do that. And [00:21:35] for them, let’s say it works out. That person ends up thinking, you’re amazing. But [00:21:40] actually he’s amazing. He’s the one who took the advice and ran with it. Yeah, I [00:21:45] was trying to explain. I’m thinking of one person in particular. I was trying to explain to him. Listen, I just [00:21:50] said the same thing to you as I say to everyone. Exactly. But you took it on and and, and implemented [00:21:55] it.

Anita Pradan: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: And so in our courses, for instance, [00:22:00] I come across students who delegates who are [00:22:05] amazing. Some of them have even pre-prepared before they get to the, [00:22:10] let’s call it the composite bonding course, pre-prepared. Before they even get there, they contact you three [00:22:15] days or one week before saying, I’m coming. I’m really excited. Then on the day they’re [00:22:20] that contributing. And then after the course, putting it [00:22:25] into practice straight away.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then the opposite.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What’s [00:22:30] your view on on that? Like, why is it one person is [00:22:35] one way and one person is another way? And how soon can you tell? By now you must be able to tell.

Anita Pradan: I think. [00:22:40]

Anita Pradan: You can tell almost.

Anita Pradan: Instantly.

Anita Pradan: You can tell.

Payman Langroudi: I was surprised by that.

Payman Langroudi: Tell you the truth. But lots of teachers [00:22:45] told me that. So you could tell instantly. I thought really? But now you can almost tell straight away.

Anita Pradan: You [00:22:50] can almost tell instantly. It’s it’s. I think when you see so many [00:22:55] delegates, I think you can you can gauge how each person is. And I think [00:23:00] that’s what like I like about teaching is that everyone’s so different. [00:23:05] And when you are like, it’s not the same. Like, you know, you might think that, okay, you’re just [00:23:10] teaching or course, it’s quite simple to be honest, very simple, but it’s [00:23:15] leading to something And you can see that some [00:23:20] people are, as you said, they are already prepared. They already [00:23:25] know quite a lot and they are super engaged. And sometimes [00:23:30] there are people who might not appear to be engaged only because on my courses especially [00:23:35] is because they’ve been away from dentistry for very, very long. And I’ve [00:23:40] seen delegates who have not touched, you know, forget the phantom head, like they’ve [00:23:45] not seen a patient for like maybe ten years.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Yeah. How’s that?

Anita Pradan: So [00:23:50] they might have like, got married, you know, have children.

Anita Pradan: They’ll be starting again.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:23:55] yeah.

Anita Pradan: It’s quite challenging. And you can see that they are [00:24:00] hesitant not because maybe not because they are not engaging. It’s because [00:24:05] they don’t remember much. And I know that I’ll have to put in more effort for [00:24:10] that person. So I know that during the course I’ll have a mixed group sometimes. And [00:24:15] you know.

Payman Langroudi: And you have to account for that. Yeah, that’s that’s an important point. Yeah. That accounting [00:24:20] for those different learning styles, if you like.

Anita Pradan: Exactly. So you can’t teach the same way for every group. [00:24:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Every time you have to make some subtle changes to your teaching style. And sometimes, [00:24:30] you know, you teach and they don’t understand and you need to have another method by which you’re going to [00:24:35] teach. And I think, you know, years of teaching has taught me that. And [00:24:40] I’m, I really love it. You know.

Payman Langroudi: You were a general dentist. You weren’t a teacher [00:24:45] of any sort. No. And then you start the academy. And are you the main teacher in the academy? [00:24:50]

Anita Pradan: So I used to teach for a different academy before.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I.

Payman Langroudi: See.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:24:55] another academy?

Anita Pradan: Yes. Another.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, okay.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Anita Pradan: So around maybe four. I [00:25:00] taught for around eight years there.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I.

Payman Langroudi: See.

Anita Pradan: Till Covid.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I.

Payman Langroudi: See. Yes. [00:25:05]

Anita Pradan: Um, so I used to work as the general manager of the whole company as well. [00:25:10] So they had a manufacturing company as well. And I worked as [00:25:15] the main, um, like basically I had to manage the academy as well. And I [00:25:20] used to teach the mannequin courses as well, but I used to, you know, do everything for every other [00:25:25] course as well. So there was a lot on my plate and during like before [00:25:30] Covid, actually, it, it just got too much because I used to work 8 to 8 nearly [00:25:35] every day, um, without any significant break or holiday. Um, [00:25:40] so I reached a point where I had [00:25:45] to stop or I was feeling like that’s the end of me. You know.

Payman Langroudi: Covid [00:25:50] was an interesting time for that. Make people reflect on their lives.

Anita Pradan: Actually, it saved my life.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. I [00:25:55] must say.

Payman Langroudi: Because you were, you know, you were 8 to 18 and not looking up.

Anita Pradan: Yeah, I was at [00:26:00] you know, there were days when I used to have palpitations. I used to think I’m going to have a heart [00:26:05] attack today.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Anita Pradan: It was so stressful. My job, it was a lot. Um, but [00:26:10] of course, I learnt a lot from that job, I must say. I mean, without that, I don’t think I would.

Anita Pradan: Be [00:26:15] where I.

Payman Langroudi: Am. It’s also a classic entrepreneur story that you’re working in a place and you [00:26:20] think, well, I could do this myself. It’s it’s definitely a way a lot of entrepreneurs [00:26:25] start.

Anita Pradan: Yeah, I think so.

Anita Pradan: And I think for me, like, I, I took that break as, as a [00:26:30] very positive step. Um, I was just driving down the motorway one day and I [00:26:35] just stopped on the hard shoulder and cried.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Anita Pradan: I took [00:26:40] my laptop out of my boot, typed my resignation.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? [00:26:45] Really?

Anita Pradan: I was like, you know, I need to. I need to save myself first if I’m [00:26:50] going to do anything, you know?

Payman Langroudi: What did they teach you? I mean, okay, you resigned. Yeah, [00:26:55] yeah. So did you. Did you feel like. Why, why, why did you resign? What [00:27:00] did you do? You now treat your people differently to the way you were being treated by these guys? [00:27:05]

Anita Pradan: Hundred percent.

Payman Langroudi: Give me some examples.

Anita Pradan: So first of all, there’s no like there’s [00:27:10] no working and not getting paid? No. If you do a job, [00:27:15] you know you deserve it. You deserve to be paid and paid properly, you [00:27:20] know? Not like two pennies for, you know, stuff that, you know, people [00:27:25] exploitatively. No, not at all. I don’t I would never do that to anyone [00:27:30] and pay on time.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Were you not getting paid.

Anita Pradan: No, not.

Payman Langroudi: On working 8 to [00:27:35] 8. I’m not getting paid on time either.

Anita Pradan: No.

Anita Pradan: I like, you know, people have bills to pay. People [00:27:40] have.

Anita Pradan: Lives.

Anita Pradan: And even if they don’t need the money, they’ve earned it. So [00:27:45] despite the fact, you know, they need to be paid on time.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. 25 [00:27:50] years in this business, we’ve never, ever done that to an employee. It’s mad.

Anita Pradan: No.

Payman Langroudi: You’re [00:27:55] not going to keep employees that way.

Anita Pradan: No, no, not at all. And of course, like, you know, it’s a family. [00:28:00] You grow together. So I don’t believe in like, you know, keeping things for just the company or [00:28:05] myself. We all are part of it. And we, we take a percentage of [00:28:10] everything and at the end of the year, we give bonuses. We are very small, to be honest, but [00:28:15] everyone who deserves deserves it. You know, we take care of them if [00:28:20] they have any problems like, you know, in the family or anything like that. They need our support. We are here. Whatever [00:28:25] I can do, I will do for my for my tutors. So [00:28:30] we have like a tutorial team of now 15.

Payman Langroudi: Teachers.

Anita Pradan: Teachers, and [00:28:35] we have support staff. We have our admin team.

Payman Langroudi: So how many people in total?

Anita Pradan: Um, [00:28:40] total. We have around 23.

Payman Langroudi: Well that’s.

Anita Pradan: Small. It’s small.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not that small. [00:28:45] So it’s a lot for an education business. It’s a lot.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. [00:28:50]

Payman Langroudi: You know there’s plenty of education businesses with less less people than that.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. [00:28:55]

Anita Pradan: I think every like when I left from that company, everyone because they had joined, [00:29:00] because.

Anita Pradan: They had taught them.

Anita Pradan: And they wanted to teach alongside me [00:29:05] and they were very, very happy. You know, I used to support them, obviously, to do their jobs and [00:29:10] make sure that they were getting paid on time and being fairly treated. So [00:29:15] when I left, it, just everyone left.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, wow.

Anita Pradan: So [00:29:20] yeah, so obviously I didn’t want them to leave and they should do [00:29:25] what’s best for them. Um, but I guess it’s, uh, you know, it’s your relations [00:29:30] y, you know, you work somewhere because you, you love the place you want to be around [00:29:35] those people because for them, for teaching is not a full time job. You know, it’s, it’s [00:29:40] part time. It’s what you do because you love doing it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: So for them, it didn’t [00:29:45] matter if they did it or not. They were there because we worked as [00:29:50] a team and it was fun. It was a lot of fun. And I think now we [00:29:55] have that again. And I started Phoenix actually because of a few [00:30:00] of my, uh, delegates who I taught who were still preparing for their aura. When [00:30:05] I left, They tried to book a course at my old work, and then they [00:30:10] were like, oh, she’s left. So they contacted me. They were like, so where are [00:30:15] we supposed to go now? They were like, you must start your own. You have to. [00:30:20]

Payman Langroudi: And so were you kind of profitable from day one?

Anita Pradan: Our first course was [00:30:25] surprisingly so. I invested very, very little. To be honest. [00:30:30] It just generated its own money. Um, so yeah, [00:30:35] it was quite profitable. I didn’t expect that. And it [00:30:40] was quite, quite an amazing start, like, because obviously it was Covid started in the middle of Covid. [00:30:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: So everything was online and we had to think of ways we’re going [00:30:50] to maintain the social distancing. And at that time, all our courses were [00:30:55] in person and quite close. Like, you know, if there was a demonstration, everyone was [00:31:00] gathering around in small groups and looking at the instructor, but then we’re like, that’s not [00:31:05] going to work now. So we had cameras projecting on the screen. And [00:31:10] I think now everyone’s taken that on, obviously. So we could deliver our [00:31:15] courses remotely as well. And we were the first ones to do that. Um, [00:31:20] out of necessity. Yeah. Yeah. But it was an interesting start and [00:31:25] it took a lot of effort and very fortunately, uh, very [00:31:30] soon after I was offered a job at the College of Medicine and Dentistry [00:31:35] in Birmingham, which is a part of Ulster University. Uh, huh. Um, [00:31:40] so I, I went up there actually to attend a course myself.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: And [00:31:45] you know Professor Raj Ryan.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Great guy.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. So he’s my dad’s friend and he was [00:31:50] teaching on that course and he saw my work. He was like, has your dad ever seen [00:31:55] your work? Honestly, he hasn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Your dental work.

Anita Pradan: My dental work. [00:32:00] So I said, no, he hasn’t. He was like, he should. And he was quite happy with, [00:32:05] you know, with the work that I was doing. And he knew that I was teaching courses. [00:32:10] So he introduced me to the dean at the time, and he offered [00:32:15] me the job the same day.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the reason you’re sitting here right now is [00:32:20] because that first time I met you. Yeah. I thought, who is this sort of can do person? [00:32:25] You know, like, I mean, the story’s becoming clear [00:32:30] now, but would you would you put it down to, I mean, this, this sort of burning [00:32:35] sort of I don’t know if the words ambition. I don’t know what the word [00:32:40] is, but I, I execution.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because it’s not easy. [00:32:45] It’s not easy in another country doing something like this. Um, education’s [00:32:50] famously difficult. It’s very famously difficult business in dentistry. A lot of competition [00:32:55] people, you know, don’t want to leave their homes and stuff.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. It is a [00:33:00] very difficult.

Payman Langroudi: When did you become this person? Were you this? Were you like no. 12 year old? No, no, [00:33:05] I wasn’t.

Anita Pradan: I wasn’t at all. I was I was very privileged, [00:33:10] I must say, because my my father did very, very well. He was. [00:33:15] So he’s from Nepal and he’s a maxillofacial surgeon.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Anita Pradan: Yeah. So [00:33:20] he did his fellowship here, Royal College. And he had a very, [00:33:25] very amazing practice in Nepal treating diplomats. [00:33:30] He was a, you know, dentist to the royal family and he was [00:33:35] in the army. So I had a really good childhood. Um, and to be [00:33:40] honest, in the beginning, I thought, I’m going to be a dentist. And somewhere along the way I was like, [00:33:45] no, this is not for me. But then my dad, well, I joined dentistry [00:33:50] because of him. And then I thought, this is going to be easy for me, you know, because he’s a dentist [00:33:55] and I’ll be a dentist, so I’m just going to inherit everything. That’s not true.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not how it works.

Anita Pradan: No, [00:34:00] that’s not how it works. It’s very different. But no, I wasn’t like [00:34:05] this. I was quite laid back. And, um, I didn’t really I [00:34:10] think I did go through a lot of hard times at one point [00:34:15] in my personal life. And after that I just became [00:34:20] a different person. I just woke up one day and I was like.

Payman Langroudi: Not [00:34:25] necessarily.

Anita Pradan: Not necessarily, but that really changed me and [00:34:30] that I literally, without exaggeration, I woke up [00:34:35] one day and I said, I’m going to do this.

Payman Langroudi: How interesting. Because, look, we all know children of [00:34:40] successful people can go in many directions.

Anita Pradan: Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: 100%. [00:34:45] I’m thinking about friends of mine. Your brother’s one of them. I mean, it’s a very [00:34:50] successful parents. One of them. Very successful, ambitious guy. The other one? Not [00:34:55] at all. No.

Anita Pradan: You’re definitely is not inherited.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: And just because [00:35:00] your father is, doesn’t mean you are going.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes you almost like because your father is you’re not [00:35:05] going because you’ve had everything handed to you or whatever it is, you know. So you made that [00:35:10] if you remember the day you flipped.

Anita Pradan: I remember it, I remember it very clearly [00:35:15] getting up out of bed because I was feeling sorry for myself, you [00:35:20] know, for months, months. And I was thinking, I’m not going to do anything with my life. [00:35:25] And one day I woke up and I thought to myself, no, I am [00:35:30] going to do something with my life.

Payman Langroudi: Yes.

Anita Pradan: To be honest, like, you know, [00:35:35] when I, when I was applying for university here, so I went to, um, I did my A-levels in London, [00:35:40] so I applied to many universities and my final choice, [00:35:45] which was not Dental was environmental science. So my thought was that [00:35:50] I really want to do something which will impact a lot of people, potentially [00:35:55] the world. But yeah, that was my that was my thought [00:36:00] when I was applying for my university. And then [00:36:05] I just went down the dentistry path and I felt like, okay, this is what I’m going to do. Um, [00:36:10] but that one day, I think it changed me as a person. [00:36:15] And I just, I, I was so different after that [00:36:20] day and anything that came my way without exaggeration, I applied maybe [00:36:25] after Ori, I still have those emails for maybe a thousand [00:36:30] jobs.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Anita Pradan: So many. I got interviews [00:36:35] at three places. So one was a practice in Southend on Sea. One [00:36:40] was a hospital in Edinburgh for a dental show [00:36:45] and one was this teaching job. To be honest, I wanted all of them and I thought, [00:36:50] can I juggle all of them? And the answer is no. So I took the, [00:36:55] the the private, the practice, and I took the teaching job only because Edinburgh [00:37:00] was really far. But out of 200 applicants, I got that job and [00:37:05] there were six, six places and I got the job and I was. I was so [00:37:10] determined after that day that whatever I’m going to do, I’m going to do to the best of [00:37:15] my ability.

Payman Langroudi: You know. Anthony Robbins talks about this, that the moment [00:37:20] of change is a moment. Sometimes it’s ten years thinking [00:37:25] about that. Like, I don’t know, they say you want to give up cigarettes. The last cigarette you have takes [00:37:30] two minutes. Yeah. But sometimes mentally, it takes ten years to prepare for that moment. [00:37:35] Yeah.

Anita Pradan: It’s surprising.

Payman Langroudi: It’s kind of interesting idea.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. I thought of that as well, because [00:37:40] for so long, like months and months, I was wallowing [00:37:45] in sadness. And then there was that one day I so clearly remember [00:37:50] that day I just got up and I was like, that’s the [00:37:55] end of that. And I’m going to pass this exam in this next one, which I’m giving. So [00:38:00] my mom had already booked the exam for me and there was a month left. So I prepared for part [00:38:05] 2 in 1 month. And when I went for the exam, I did brilliantly. [00:38:10] You know, I was so determined.

Payman Langroudi: He said part two is [00:38:15] the more hands on piece. So do you teach both the hands on part and the, um, [00:38:20] theory part? Yes. So where do you do the hands on? Do you have a facility?

Anita Pradan: We, [00:38:25] uh, right now we hire a dense play.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry.

Anita Pradan: Yes. [00:38:30] In Surrey. It’s just like 20 minutes from where I live, and it’s brilliant. [00:38:35]

Payman Langroudi: How many phantom heads have they got?

Anita Pradan: They have eight. So we have small group teaching. Um, [00:38:40] but it’s a wonderful space to learn. And I really believe in, you [00:38:45] know, the environment in which you learn. It does make a very big impact. It’s so open [00:38:50] and spacious and, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Cool and clean.

Anita Pradan: And beautifully [00:38:55] maintained. And, you know, everyone’s so welcoming. And I think that’s very important when you’re [00:39:00] doing a course.

Payman Langroudi: Have you been to that new Bupa teaching?

Anita Pradan: Oh yes I have.

Payman Langroudi: We saw each other. [00:39:05] We saw each other there. Yes.

Anita Pradan: That was that was amazing.

Payman Langroudi: That was interesting. Yes. What they’ve done [00:39:10] with that. Yeah. I was I’ll tell you the truth. I was a bit surprised at how interesting that was. You know, I really [00:39:15] like that space. It was bloody good. It blew my socks off. Yeah yeah yeah, yeah.

Anita Pradan: You do brilliant [00:39:20] things in there.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. But you’re right. I was talking to Richard Porter about this as well, you know Aspire Academy. [00:39:25] Yeah. He’s just opened this brand new place. And it’s funny though, [00:39:30] you know, anytime anyone opens a brand new place, you know, it costs you could you could tell he spent money [00:39:35] on this place and you see it sometimes with dental practices, right? There’s a regular [00:39:40] dental practice. Then the guy just does it up. Yes. Yeah. And the cost is huge. But, you [00:39:45] know, on the day one, after you do it up, it’s still your own patience. Yeah, like the money [00:39:50] coming in is nowhere near how much went out? Yeah. No different to the day before you did that? Yeah. Eventually, [00:39:55] I guess. Eventually it works. But his he’s got this whole thing about, um, [00:40:00] Socrates and Plato and the way that learning works best and the environment [00:40:05] and, and, and so on. It’s an interesting sort of notion. Right. [00:40:10] Yeah. Tell me about what typically the person [00:40:15] has to do on the hands on part.

Anita Pradan: In the hands on part. It’s um [00:40:20] cavity preparations.

Payman Langroudi: What does the mods or whatever.

Anita Pradan: Yeah, yeah. Last [00:40:25] ones, class twos, you know, amalgam and composite.

Payman Langroudi: How, how, how anal.

Payman Langroudi: Are they about that. Is it [00:40:30] like very. Oh really. Like all the rounded sort of line angle.

Anita Pradan: Yes, exactly. [00:40:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yes.

Anita Pradan: So we followed the, the Gdc’s consortium, the guidelines [00:40:40] which they have given on the website. Um, and that’s what we follow and it’s [00:40:45] quite very specific. And that’s I think that’s why it is difficult. [00:40:50] And obviously there’s crown preps, there’s root canal, but root canal, very basic root [00:40:55] canal. Um, you know, things like impressions and temporary crowns and things like [00:41:00] that. Yeah. So how do you do.

Payman Langroudi: A temporary crown on a, on a phantom head? Is it doable? Yeah. [00:41:05] It’s not all stick together and no.

Anita Pradan: The [00:41:10] only thing I find it’s more difficult than on a patient, to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. No, [00:41:15] I can imagine.

Anita Pradan: Because the patient’s gums are attached. Yeah. So there’s no space. Right. But on the [00:41:20] phantom head there’s no attachment. So all the material just goes in between.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. [00:41:25]

Anita Pradan: So when you have to take it out, it’s just like gooey.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: It’s all gone everywhere. [00:41:30] Yeah. So it’s slightly more difficult, but yeah. Doable.

Payman Langroudi: So which parts of the [00:41:35] course do you personally teach?

Anita Pradan: I teach the, the mannequin the hands on.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really?

Anita Pradan: Yeah. [00:41:40] I’ve always been hands on. I think that’s why I did dentistry, to be honest, because [00:41:45] of the hands on part. Um, that’s always quite artistic.

Payman Langroudi: So did [00:41:50] you go off and train more or read more or whatever you’d never taught before? Now you’re teaching. Yes. [00:41:55] Wow. What was that process?

Anita Pradan: So when I taught [00:42:00] at my the old place where I used to work. So the.

Payman Langroudi: Did you [00:42:05] attend lots of classes? Eventually learn.

Anita Pradan: So the the way that the training worked. [00:42:10] So we had, I had an interview in which I had to perform tasks. Um, one of [00:42:15] them was a Gold Crown prep and uh, the, the trainer, the lead trainer [00:42:20] there was very happy with my work. And I was on the train back [00:42:25] after the interview and they offered me the job, but the criteria was that I would [00:42:30] first be simultaneously preparing as the trainer was [00:42:35] delivering the classes and perfect my skills as well. And [00:42:40] usually they used to take like around six months before you can independently [00:42:45] teach.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: But I took around three weeks.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Anita Pradan: Yeah, but [00:42:50] it was intense. You know, you had to, like, do the preparations every day and, [00:42:55] you know, get it perfect. Um, up to the standard beyond the standard of the exam. [00:43:00] Because when I passed, I thought I was good. Now I look back on those preps [00:43:05] and I think, oh my God, no.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think it’s [00:43:10] fit for purpose? The exam?

Anita Pradan: Not really. No.

Payman Langroudi: Not yet. What [00:43:15] happens that people get good at passing the exam. But they’re not. The exam itself isn’t doesn’t make you a good [00:43:20] dentist.

Anita Pradan: Not at all. I think there are aspects which are really brilliant. [00:43:25] Um, like for the hands on, I think the only part which is really [00:43:30] helpful is the Crown preps because Crown preps are Crown preps, right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Um, but [00:43:35] the rest is, is very textbook, you know, on your patient, [00:43:40] you’re going with the caries and how to diagnose caries.

Payman Langroudi: Can you [00:43:45] old school, black, black classification, that sort of thing.

Anita Pradan: But that doesn’t help us much with [00:43:50] the patients because you’re not looking at radiographs, you’re not looking at the patient [00:43:55] a real patient. You’re not, you know, modifying your cavity design according to [00:44:00] what you see in the mouth. All that’s not there. So I don’t think it’s very [00:44:05] useful in that way. But of course it does reinforce your principles [00:44:10] and you know, the basics of dentistry. But I think what’s useful is [00:44:15] treatment planning.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Because to be honest, I studied at a very [00:44:20] good university in India, Manipal University, and we did do treatment planning, but [00:44:25] not in this way. I mean, not in a very realistic way. I think the exam is quite [00:44:30] close to what you would do in a clinical practice, a very ideal treatment planning. But I [00:44:35] think it’s good practice because, you know, if you can do a good treatment planning, you can deliver good treatment [00:44:40] without a plan. I don’t.

Anita Pradan: Think.

Anita Pradan: You can really.

Anita Pradan: Do.

Payman Langroudi: Much. Huge isn’t.

Payman Langroudi: It?

Anita Pradan: So I think it does [00:44:45] help overseas clinicians kind of gauge what they’re going to get into when they come here. [00:44:50] But there is a very big gap between passing the exam and actually [00:44:55] working on patients here. It’s huge still.

Payman Langroudi: So I’d [00:45:00] expect that the main sort of jobs for overseas, [00:45:05] the big the big thing is corporates. Mhm. Is that correct? Yes. Because they need they constantly need [00:45:10] more and more people. Yeah. So do you have a relationship with it or is that is that why you were at Bupa that day. [00:45:15]

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: For instance.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Bupa. And of course, because we were going to deliver [00:45:20] some of their training as well.

Payman Langroudi: And who are we training.

Anita Pradan: Are we training [00:45:25] and also other training because we do other courses as well. Not just oh yeah [00:45:30] we do.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your second biggest course LDS. The third biggest course.

Anita Pradan: Therapist. [00:45:35] Therapist.

Anita Pradan: Yes. Therapist. Refresher course. That’s big as well. And now we are [00:45:40] starting like we already have like return to practice or back to practice courses for dentists.

Payman Langroudi: Nothing to do with [00:45:45] worry at all. Nothing to do with overseas.

Anita Pradan: No. And then.

Anita Pradan: We have, uh, we have, [00:45:50] um, recently done a course with Austin for implants as well. And we have [00:45:55] another one coming separate. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, excellent.

Anita Pradan: So we are doing more now like implants. [00:46:00] Uh, prosthodontics. So all that is coming up in the next few [00:46:05] months.

Payman Langroudi: And a year course. Is that, is that the final yes. Destination. [00:46:10]

Anita Pradan: Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: It should be, you know, like, because it’s if you sell someone [00:46:15] an implant course, it’s a bit like dentistry, you know, with a patient, it’s a game of trust [00:46:20] more than anything else.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And you people [00:46:25] tell me, oh, teeth whitening. I have not able to sell it at £500 or whatever. [00:46:30] Yeah. And I just whenever someone says that to me, I just think, well, you don’t understand. Dentistry [00:46:35] is a game of trust.

Anita Pradan: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: You know, because they’re very happily selling crowns for £1,000. [00:46:40] Yeah, but can’t sell teeth whitening for £500. It’s a crazy story, but it’s a [00:46:45] game of trust.

Anita Pradan: It is.

Payman Langroudi: And if you if someone trusts you enough to pay you on how much you charge [00:46:50] for your day course, like, I don’t know, £900 for a day course. Yeah. It’s. [00:46:55] Interestingly, they might trust you enough to pay you £900 a day times 12.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: People [00:47:00] tell me this about raising cash as well. Like if you’re borrowing £1 million from an investor, he [00:47:05] still has to trust you.

Anita Pradan: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: To £1 million. Yes. It’s like if he’s going to trust you, borrow £10 [00:47:10] million instead of 1 million. Yeah. Yeah. Because the trust.

Anita Pradan: Question. Yeah.

Anita Pradan: It is it is a [00:47:15] trust question. Like right now we had these promotions on our courses and it just showed that, [00:47:20] you know, we, we are trusted because we, we had a package which [00:47:25] will give them all the, our comprehensive courses, but also the mock exams, [00:47:30] which they may take now or may take next year, but they’ve bought it in advance, [00:47:35] like the whole package. I don’t know if you didn’t trust someone.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anita Pradan: You’re [00:47:40] right.

Anita Pradan: You wouldn’t really buy the whole package. You’d say. You know, I’ll buy the comprehensive for now and see how it [00:47:45] goes. And buy the, you know, the mocks later. But. But they have, you know. And then we do [00:47:50] have these therapist courses as well. And we do have other providers for them. And our [00:47:55] courses, to be honest, are more expensive than others. But we do provide a lot, a lot [00:48:00] in that course. It’s wonderful. It’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Course you provide socials as well.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. [00:48:05]

Payman Langroudi: You do what? Dinners and.

Anita Pradan: Things. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, cool.

Anita Pradan: So I think when [00:48:10] you see that, you know, that, you know, people do trust you. And these people, these [00:48:15] delegates have come to us before, say maybe for training.

Anita Pradan: And then yeah. [00:48:20]

Anita Pradan: Then they want to do further training with us. And if we are working in partnership with someone, [00:48:25] then they are more than happy to go on that course because they trust us to, [00:48:30] you know, give them the right guidance. And we we work in partnership with other academies [00:48:35] as well, which is great.

Payman Langroudi: Which ones?

Anita Pradan: Um, for ortho Ceph tactics. [00:48:40]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Anita Pradan: Yes. And I did my ortho from there. So I can say with.

Payman Langroudi: Lots [00:48:45] of good things about.

Payman Langroudi: Them.

Anita Pradan: Very very amazing. Absolutely mind boggling. Yes. [00:48:50] Because when I, I really loved ortho from like many, [00:48:55] many years and I did a lot of ortho, uh, you know, recall appointments for my orthodontists [00:49:00] in Nepal. So I had done a lot already. And I, I really liked it. I [00:49:05] just didn’t get an opportunity to do it myself.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: And when I came here, [00:49:10] um, so tactics. Raj Jabbal. He’s my he’s my batchmate [00:49:15] from university.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Anita Pradan: We’re from the same batch. So he told [00:49:20] me, come and do the course. I was like, yeah, definitely. And he’s absolutely amazing. And [00:49:25] Ines oh my God, when you go for the course, it’s just so now we can say with [00:49:30] confidence that. Yes, definitely. You know, it’s not just because Raj is my friend, but because [00:49:35] the course is absolutely brilliant. And similarly, you know, if we have other [00:49:40] partners, then we refer to them as well. So and if they [00:49:45] have someone giving a worry or any of our courses, then they refer to us as well. So I [00:49:50] think it’s like, you know, nice to have that partnership with, you know, academies and trainers who are already [00:49:55] doing the courses and doing a brilliant job.

Payman Langroudi: No point reinventing.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:50:00] partnership with ace. Yeah. You know.

Payman Langroudi: Them. Yes I know.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s been wonderful. It’s been a wonderful thing [00:50:05] for us to have that partnership. Yeah. I hope you feel the same about us as we do. But [00:50:10] that’s in the education in the education part. And I’ve definitely spent [00:50:15] a lot of time with Chris Hau and people. And his course is set up quick, [00:50:20] you know, and people love, love going there.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:50:25] but the year course thing is a very interesting thing in that you’re telling me. And [00:50:30] I totally believe you. People. People who do aren’t the finished product.

Anita Pradan: No. [00:50:35] And?

Payman Langroudi: And depends what you’re calling the finished product. Yeah. Because maybe, maybe, you know, [00:50:40] you’ve come from a good university, a great university in India. Maybe I want to come and I want to work private [00:50:45] industry. I don’t want to work in the NHS.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So to turn someone from that not finished product to a [00:50:50] finished product takes longer than a couple of days a week, a month. It [00:50:55] takes longer.

Anita Pradan: And I think because we’ve worked with like seen them [00:51:00] before and because I studied abroad and, you know, I’ve worked abroad the [00:51:05] way we do things here and there, it’s very different. And the [00:51:10] understanding like people have of the system here is, is not very clear. [00:51:15] You know, they think that they can come and do dentistry the way they used to in their [00:51:20] home countries, but it’s not really true. So I think these courses more than like some, [00:51:25] some of them might have done a masters like we have someone now who, who’s going [00:51:30] to join this? Like it’s a two day implant course. So it’s basics, but he [00:51:35] wants to join it nevertheless because he’s done his implant training in India. But he [00:51:40] wants to see like, you know, is there a difference when he practices here? And that’s quite important. And [00:51:45] sometimes we have such brilliant courses here from so many providers. But [00:51:50] I think for overseas clinicians, sometimes they’re not at that level yet. [00:51:55] And they may not, you know, gain as much from those courses. [00:52:00] So our courses are going to be kind of bridging courses, you know, not so advanced that, [00:52:05] you know, they don’t get the most out of it, um, but good enough so that they can [00:52:10] implement it clinically almost immediately. And then once they have done that, we definitely [00:52:15] would like them to go on, you know, more advanced courses, um, to, you know, [00:52:20] get their skills to even higher level.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your, what’s your level of ambition for, [00:52:25] for work.

Anita Pradan: Well, at the moment [00:52:30] my whole, whole focus is on Phoenix. But, [00:52:35] uh.

Anita Pradan: But.

Payman Langroudi: For instance, might you open a dental practice chain?

Anita Pradan: I [00:52:40] don’t know what a chain.

Payman Langroudi: Chain is a big.

Payman Langroudi: Word, but. Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Yeah, I [00:52:45] think so.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. I, I have ventured into it a couple of times.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Have [00:52:50] you.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. But I just had to give up because it was with, with [00:52:55] another like on one occasion with two other partners and one occasion with another [00:53:00] partner. But I think it’s maybe the timing wasn’t [00:53:05] right the first time. And the second time is just not the right person. So I think it [00:53:10] taught me a lot though, because I think when you when you go through some struggles, you [00:53:15] learn what not to do the next time.

Payman Langroudi: You haven’t got partners in Phoenix.

Anita Pradan: No.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:53:20] interesting the question of partners here because for instance, I couldn’t do anything without partners. I’m [00:53:25] too scared. I don’t scared is not the word. I’ve got too many blind [00:53:30] spots of my own. And you could say, hey, hire people for those blind spots. [00:53:35] But somehow, for me, I would not do any business on my own. I would always [00:53:40] want someone. Mhm. But sounds like you’re the opposite. Sounds like you want to be.

Anita Pradan: It’s [00:53:45] not.

Payman Langroudi: Well, well.

Payman Langroudi: Listen.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe you just haven’t found the right.

Anita Pradan: Partner. Yeah, I haven’t found the right partner. [00:53:50] Maybe that’s.

Anita Pradan: That is the that is the.

Payman Langroudi: But do you wish you had a partner in Phoenix?

Anita Pradan: I do, I.

Anita Pradan: Do.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:53:55] it’s lonely, isn’t.

Anita Pradan: It? It’s very lonely.

Payman Langroudi: When stuff goes wrong. It’s really lonely.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. And you know, you.

Anita Pradan: Need someone [00:54:00] to bounce ideas off and, you know, to grow bigger. You do need that person. You [00:54:05] know, some extra brains to support you. I mean, your brain might be good, but not that good, you [00:54:10] know? And then you’re good at something, but you’re not good at everything.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: And I think that’s [00:54:15] where I do like, I do wish I had a partner, but I just haven’t found the right person. [00:54:20] And, um. Yeah, but for the practices, I think, yeah, [00:54:25] definitely. I want to have my own practice. Um, especially.

Payman Langroudi: Have you got appetite [00:54:30] for it? I mean, why, why is it you’re not a practising dentist now is it because you’re too busy or is it time. [00:54:35]

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You’re too busy.

Anita Pradan: Because right now. So we started [00:54:40] obviously Phoenix just in, in the UK online. And then we started doing face [00:54:45] to face classes. And then we started, you know, growing the type of courses that we [00:54:50] have and it’s just kept growing, which is great. And then we have now [00:54:55] overseas courses. So I think to Turkey. Yeah, Turkey. We just came back from [00:55:00] Turkey last month. Uh, we have another collaboration in Malaysia and [00:55:05] we are providing our training through Smile Academy in [00:55:10] India.

Payman Langroudi: Through what gin and.

Anita Pradan: Kirsch? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: In India, in India, I [00:55:15] love.

Anita Pradan: That. So it’s a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Those [00:55:20] two are such collaborators. Yes, I really take my hat off to them in that sense. They constantly [00:55:25] collaborating with loads and loads and loads of different people. Yeah, and some people are so the opposite, you [00:55:30] know, they, they want to keep everything to themselves and.

Anita Pradan: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Um, like for [00:55:35] instance, you could do this year course, day after tomorrow.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: If you wanted.

Anita Pradan: To. [00:55:40] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Because you could have different people teaching it.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: End of story. Yeah. Or you [00:55:45] could say, I want to teach most of it myself.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then it will take a lot longer [00:55:50] for it to happen. Do you think? Yeah, definitely. That first type.

Anita Pradan: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. There’s just this. Want [00:55:55] stuff to happen.

Anita Pradan: It happened so quickly.

Anita Pradan: You know, they asked me, do you want can you do the course [00:56:00] in India for us? I was like, yeah, we can. I think it was like in a week.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: It [00:56:05] was a week.

Anita Pradan: It was, it was it was being marketed. We were getting delegates [00:56:10] on board. It happened really quick. We’re on our fourth cohort, fourth. [00:56:15] It’s quite a lot in such a short I think it’s not even been a year now. So it’s really [00:56:20] quick and I do work with them one day a week as their clinical lead for overseas [00:56:25] clinicians.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well, the existing ones in practices, in [00:56:30] their practices.

Anita Pradan: In their practices.

Payman Langroudi: How interesting. So tell me in [00:56:35] your week, do you get questions from that lot?

Anita Pradan: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: What is it like? What kind [00:56:40] of question are we talking?

Anita Pradan: Most of the questions are like basically navigating the NHS [00:56:45] system. And a lot of the clinicians are quite young, so [00:56:50] they might have problems in the treatment. Like, you know, they send me radiographs to see [00:56:55] and do the treatment plan with them. I have gone to the practice [00:57:00] and supported some, uh, some clinicians as well, which was quite fun. [00:57:05] So, so yeah, it’s an interesting role, but, uh, [00:57:10] yeah, but it’s not just dentists, it’s therapists and hygienists [00:57:15] as well who came from that route.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so how much [00:57:20] of your day is spent on each aspect of your life? Like what’s your. What does your [00:57:25] week look like? What happens on a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.

Anita Pradan: Mondays I work for Jen and [00:57:30] smile. Yeah.

Anita Pradan: All day.

Payman Langroudi: From home.

Anita Pradan: No. At Watford.

Payman Langroudi: At [00:57:35] one of the practices.

Anita Pradan: Yes. So from.

Anita Pradan: The headquarters.

Anita Pradan: Watford. Yeah yeah yeah.

Anita Pradan: And then [00:57:40] Tuesday, usually on Tuesdays and Wednesdays I teach in Birmingham.

Payman Langroudi: At [00:57:45] a different institution.

Anita Pradan: Yes, in the College of Medicine and Dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Oh the one.

Payman Langroudi: Who said [00:57:50] yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anita Pradan: So on Monday I would travel to Birmingham right after.

Anita Pradan: Every week.

Anita Pradan: Every week, Wednesday, [00:57:55] Tuesday, Wednesday I’m there and Thursday I’d like [00:58:00] Wednesday I’d come back and Thursday usually we have a three day course. [00:58:05] So Thursday, Friday and Saturday at Dental fly. Yeah. Our [00:58:10] own courses. If we don’t have a three day course, we normally have a Saturday Sunday course.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:58:15]

Payman Langroudi: So.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s it.

Anita Pradan: That’s the rest of the days [00:58:20] I do admin. Obviously there’s a lot of admin to do. Yeah. So I still. [00:58:25]

Anita Pradan: Have to.

Payman Langroudi: Have to do the Birmingham piece.

Anita Pradan: I absolutely love that. I [00:58:30] love teaching in large groups. And I think you can only have it at a university. So [00:58:35] I teach like, uh, right now, the current cohort was like 30. [00:58:40] So I teach 30 per day. I have taught in [00:58:45] a week 100 as well. So 100 students in a, in three days. [00:58:50] So I think.

Anita Pradan: Is.

Payman Langroudi: That as well.

Anita Pradan: It’s restorative, but it [00:58:55] has all aspects as well. So I cover all of Ora and some restorative and endo as well.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:59:00] percentage of your delegates are India. Pakistan.

Anita Pradan: Oh very [00:59:05] very massive.

Payman Langroudi: 99.

Anita Pradan: Not 90 maybe. 80. [00:59:10]

Anita Pradan: 80. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And the rest from all over.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so what reflections [00:59:15] have you got about like for instance, different universe. What’s what’s been surprisingly good. Like [00:59:20] which country?

Anita Pradan: You won’t believe it. Turkey.

Payman Langroudi: Turkey provides good dentists. [00:59:25] Surprisingly good.

Anita Pradan: Dentists. Yes. Their work.

Anita Pradan: Is. It’s actually really good. [00:59:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: The the work that they produce is really good. I think where [00:59:35] they are a bit not that great is communication.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Anita Pradan: But [00:59:40] the dentist, the Turkish dentist whose English is good, they are absolutely [00:59:45] brilliant. You know, because when we started this collaboration with Turkey, I [00:59:50] thought, are we going to have turkey, turkey teeth? But no, it’s not. [00:59:55]

Payman Langroudi: You know, Gallup Grill, my hero, my hero in dentistry, Gallup Grill.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: He’s Turkish. [01:00:00]

Payman Langroudi: He’s Turkish.

Payman Langroudi: One of the best dentists in the whole wide world. You know, it’s like anywhere, right? You get [01:00:05] good and bad everywhere, right?

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: But they are generally quite good. And I think, um, [01:00:10] Dentists from Pakistan have good, uh, very [01:00:15] surgical skills.

Payman Langroudi: Is that right?

Anita Pradan: Surgical skills. And even like in terms of communication, [01:00:20] if you compared India and Pakistan, dentists from Pakistan have better communication [01:00:25] skills.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Which I found quite amazing.

Payman Langroudi: And do you find [01:00:30] particular universities provide better than graduates than others?

Anita Pradan: Yes, [01:00:35] definitely.

Anita Pradan: Definitely. Some universities are absolutely brilliant, like, uh, delegates [01:00:40] from Nepal. Um, they are really good [01:00:45] because, you know, I though I spent, I spent some time in [01:00:50] Nepal and my, my father, he is a shareholder and founder [01:00:55] of some of the dental colleges there. So I got the opportunity to go and visit [01:01:00] the colleges and, you know, have a look at their teaching styles. And, and also we [01:01:05] did mentoring for some of the final year students at our practice in Nepal are [01:01:10] really good. I was quite amazed, like the communication skills [01:01:15] really good. Even their skills in dentistry, the understanding, really, really [01:01:20] good foundation.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting the cultural differences, right? Because I’m from Iran that [01:01:25] dentists in Iran, some of the most successful people in society.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It [01:01:30] just happens to be the.

Payman Langroudi: Way.

Payman Langroudi: The way Iran set up.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: People want specialists [01:01:35] as well like this for years. But people want to see specialists. Yeah. And [01:01:40] then they make up specialities of their own, you know, like he’s composite bonding specialist or [01:01:45] whatever, whatever it might be. Um, so you know what I mean? Like it’s not [01:01:50] just about, hey, the GDP of that country. It’s about the culture, the dental culture [01:01:55] in that country. Plus here we’ve got the NHS. No, no, not no. [01:02:00] A lot of the population aren’t saving for their teeth at all.

Anita Pradan: No.

Payman Langroudi: Like they don’t expect [01:02:05] to spend a dollar on their teeth.

Anita Pradan: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: And so, you know, Britain might be the fifth richest country [01:02:10] in the world or.

Payman Langroudi: A.

Payman Langroudi: Bit down there, sixth richest country in the world. And yet because [01:02:15] of that NHS system, you know, dentistry is not where it could have been.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Where it could have been. [01:02:20] Definitely. Yeah. I was quite surprised because when I was preparing for [01:02:25] my Ori, I was working as a dental nurse and I was [01:02:30] quite disappointed, you know, with especially I was in, in [01:02:35] Kent, um, and I did a lot of nursing with a lot of the practices there. And [01:02:40] I was really disappointed that I couldn’t see like great dentistry. And I [01:02:45] was very young at that time. And I was, I was thinking maybe I can learn a lot while I’m nursing, but [01:02:50] it was quite disappointing. Um, because obviously all that time [01:02:55] I’d been seeing my, my father work and I learned so much from [01:03:00] him, um, more during, I think during my b.d.s days [01:03:05] than after. But I always remembered even the smallest things that he said. [01:03:10] I would, you know, keep that in mind and implement them. And that made a [01:03:15] lot of difference.

Payman Langroudi: Is there a bit of you that has to get out of the shadow of your father?

Anita Pradan: There was [01:03:20] in the beginning, you know, I thought things as I told you, I thought things are going to be so easy for me.

Payman Langroudi: No. [01:03:25] But the idea that, you know, I’m sure he’s, like, very respected. And everywhere he goes, he’s like, yeah, [01:03:30] venerated. If you like the. I don’t know what that even means, but you know what I [01:03:35] mean? People respect him a lot.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. They do.

Payman Langroudi: And then and then you have to make [01:03:40] your own way out of that, right? Because you could be the daughter of him. But [01:03:45] what I’ve noticed is people like that hate being called the daughter of him. They want to [01:03:50] be known for themselves. Right.

Anita Pradan: To be honest.

Anita Pradan: I never.

Anita Pradan: I.

Anita Pradan: Think I never [01:03:55] thought of it like that. And I was quite happy to be his daughter, of course, and [01:04:00] be known as his daughter. But I think Uh, when he when [01:04:05] I started practising in Nepal, he had already moved here. Um, [01:04:10] so.

Payman Langroudi: Did.

Payman Langroudi: He do.

Anita Pradan: He did the, [01:04:15] the older version of the LDS, but he just walked [01:04:20] into the exam and just destroyed it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: You know, he, he [01:04:25] said it wasn’t really much of an exam because he, he was doing his fellowship at that time. He’s [01:04:30] really brilliant, to be honest. He’s very brilliant. And I keep telling him, I wish I had your brain [01:04:35] and I wish I knew as much as you do. I would have done courses like no one [01:04:40] could touch. So I keep trying to push him to do some courses, [01:04:45] but he’s quite shy that way. He’s a brilliant clinician, and I think he did [01:04:50] a lot of, you know, charity work and did a lot for the country for Nepal. [01:04:55] And I think it’s quite inspiring because he he made a difference. And I [01:05:00] think that’s what inspired me to do something which would make some difference somewhere. [01:05:05] But yeah, but in terms of, uh, being in a shadow, I think [01:05:10] I never felt that way. And when I started practising in Nepal, I think people, [01:05:15] they came to me more than the other associates who I had, who were much [01:05:20] more qualified than me and experienced because of, of his name. [01:05:25] They were like, oh, okay, his daughter. So she must be as good. Um, so I [01:05:30] had to live up to that. And I think.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know if it’s like this in, in [01:05:35] Iran, the older you are, the better doctor you are.

Anita Pradan: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Do you have that as well?

Anita Pradan: Yes. Of course.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:05:40] not. That’s not the case here.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Here you get a 75 year old doctor. You think he’s [01:05:45] not. He’s not. He’s old timer. He’s not he’s not up with the newest stuff, which he isn’t a lot of times. Right. [01:05:50] But in Iran, literally it’s the older you are. And sometimes they keep on going. Yeah. You know they haven’t got the same [01:05:55] sort of pension at 65.

Anita Pradan: I know exactly.

Payman Langroudi: You see this 85 year old [01:06:00] guy like walk, walk into the guys like past it. Yeah. But [01:06:05] there it’s all about age.

Anita Pradan: Yes. You have the similar thing. Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Well, I [01:06:10] remember when I used to, when I saw my first patients, everyone was like, they [01:06:15] used to go out to reception. I used to do the check-up, book them in for the next appointment, and they’d [01:06:20] go out and be like, um, how old is she?

Anita Pradan: And, and.

Anita Pradan: I looked younger [01:06:25] than what I was. And that was not great for me. But I did have [01:06:30] that here as well. When I started in Southend on Sea, I remember my, my nurse, [01:06:35] who was also the receptionist, used to say that, oh, the patient, they looked happy inside, but outside they [01:06:40] were asking me how old you are and do you have any experience? I’m like, I’m not that young.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:06:45] a blessing in other ways, right?

Anita Pradan: Yeah, in other ways.

Anita Pradan: But I was like, [01:06:50] oh, I wished I looked a little bit older because I was like maybe 35 at that time. And [01:06:55] I was like, and they were like, has she completed her studies yet. Um, [01:07:00] but yeah, but it’s, it’s interesting, but my, my dad, although [01:07:05] it’s interesting because of what you said, like he’s, he’s 82. [01:07:10]

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Anita Pradan: But he is so [01:07:15] obsessed with everything. Like, you know, sometimes he comes and tells me, oh, did you hear about that recent [01:07:20] thing in dentistry? Like I’m going for that course next week. Um, and [01:07:25] I’m like, I haven’t heard of it and like, come let’s have a look and do you want to go with me? And he’s [01:07:30] like, does everything like, you know, whatever’s, you know, coming up, he [01:07:35] knows about it. He provides. Yeah, he did retire. He [01:07:40] retired three years ago. He had a retirement party.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Anita Pradan: Two months after that, [01:07:45] he was like, I can’t do this.

Anita Pradan: Because.

Payman Langroudi: He’d become the job. [01:07:50]

Anita Pradan: If you look at him, he’s like, he’s in his 60s. So he has too much energy. He’s [01:07:55] he’s just so. And he loves dentistry. You [01:08:00] can see he loves it. Obviously he still wants to go back to work. He doesn’t have to. But I [01:08:05] think until he can, he will.

Anita Pradan: And yeah, on this.

Payman Langroudi: On [01:08:10] this journey, what’s been the hardest day?

Anita Pradan: Um, the journey, [01:08:15] the journey.

Payman Langroudi: Of life. Well, the business.

Payman Langroudi: The business [01:08:20] journey.

Anita Pradan: The business journey.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Um, I think sustaining [01:08:25] it and keeping it alive.

Payman Langroudi: Is the hardest.

Payman Langroudi: Thing.

Anita Pradan: Is [01:08:30] the hardest thing. And to be motivated all the time to keep it [01:08:35] alive. Because obviously it’s a business and it has its ups and downs. And [01:08:40] I haven’t studied business. You know, it was an idea [01:08:45] that I thought I’m going to do for a while, and I don’t know how it’s going [01:08:50] to go and if it’s going to last and will I be able to sustain it?

Payman Langroudi: Did [01:08:55] you come to a point? I mean, I came in the early days many times, like [01:09:00] death experiences.

Anita Pradan: Many times.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Many times. [01:09:05] Oh my God.

Payman Langroudi: And we had we had the bank came in, we missed a payment to the [01:09:10] bank, which you must never do.

Payman Langroudi: Right?

Payman Langroudi: No, we missed the payment to the bank. And they [01:09:15] came around with these accountants who they were billing us for as well. It was all this [01:09:20] financial trouble. They said, these are turnaround accountants. These guys were fools. But anyway, we [01:09:25] had to pay those guys as well. And then um, I remember Dental showcase. [01:09:30] By the way, have you ever have you ever exhibited.

Anita Pradan: No.

Payman Langroudi: So Dental showcase when you were [01:09:35] small. Exhibiting Dental showcase is life and death anyway. Yeah, because it’s so expensive. [01:09:40] Yeah. Like last Dental, uh, dentistry show. We spent £80,000 [01:09:45] on our stand.

Anita Pradan: Oh, my.

Payman Langroudi: God. Stand hotel.

Payman Langroudi: Everything.

Payman Langroudi: Dinners, [01:09:50] whatever it was. Yeah, but mainly stand. Yeah. And when you’re smaller that okay, that number [01:09:55] could be 200 £0, right? But even £20,000 is a hell of a lot of money.

Anita Pradan: For a small company. [01:10:00] Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So you’re risking everything. And this particular Dental showcase, I was [01:10:05] literally it was life and death. Yeah. Because we’d spent everything just to get [01:10:10] there. These turnaround accountants were on our backs, and they were going to report back to the bank and say, [01:10:15] you know, is this business viable or should we shut it down? Should we pull the plug on this business? [01:10:20] And I remember the show opening and literally looking at my business partner [01:10:25] and saying this, we’ve got to decide. And based [01:10:30] on the sales on that day, and we had record sales that day, you [01:10:35] know, the agony and ecstasy as well. Like it’s so close to death. And then [01:10:40] record sales come in and they but based on that, we were, we were able to like, just keep going. [01:10:45] Yeah.

Anita Pradan: It’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: It’s madness man. So tell me about mistakes. [01:10:50] We like talking about mistakes. What comes to mind?

Anita Pradan: Well, [01:10:55] in my clinical career, sure.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s start.

Payman Langroudi: There.

Anita Pradan: So [01:11:00] in my clinical career, fortunately, I’ve been very [01:11:05] well supported. So I’ve not had like tremendous mistakes as such. [01:11:10] But one thing that comes to mind, because it was one of the first things I ever did on [01:11:15] a patient away from university. Yeah. Um, so it was my first week [01:11:20] working in my dad’s practice and I was already under in Nepal.

Anita Pradan: In [01:11:25] Nepal.

Anita Pradan: Under a lot of pressure because I had to live up to his name. So [01:11:30] I did a crown prep for a patient. The patient had a lot of gum recession, [01:11:35] bone recession, like, you know, very big embrasures. [01:11:40] And I.

Payman Langroudi: Got I.

Payman Langroudi: Got stuck. I [01:11:45] did gum. Was it that one of those very hard gum.

Anita Pradan: It was. [01:11:50] That was the only thing that was there. I asked my nurse to mix, uh, the impression [01:11:55] material. Give it to me in gum. Didn’t even think about it. [01:12:00] Put it in the mouth. Couldn’t take it out.

Payman Langroudi: And so what happened? You drilled it.

Anita Pradan: Off? Yes. [01:12:05] First of all, I tried, I tried, and then the patient was [01:12:10] like, you know, he’s salivating everywhere.

Payman Langroudi: And you were a new dentist.

Anita Pradan: I was a new dentist. [01:12:15] I was sweating, it was my own practice and I didn’t know what to do. There was no dad around. No, [01:12:20] there was no one else on that day.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, wow.

Anita Pradan: I was like, this is not coming out. I was like, I told my [01:12:25] nurse, I need to cut it off. Cutting off an impression. [01:12:30] Oh my God. I think that was the most traumatising experience [01:12:35] ever.

Payman Langroudi: You hear about it now, but at that point, you probably never heard of that idea. No. [01:12:40]

Anita Pradan: Not at all. I was like, it’s just an impression. You know, I’ve done the [01:12:45] hard part. I’ve done the local anaesthetic. I was so new. I’ve done the local anaesthetic. [01:12:50] It was amazing. I’ve done the crown prep. Looks good. You know, I’ve [01:12:55] done the opposing alginate. And now this was my final step. And oh my God. [01:13:00] I think that really stood out. Till [01:13:05] now, whenever I teach impressions, I always talk about it because in the exam they gave them [01:13:10] gum.

Payman Langroudi: Because that’s a complaint in the UK.

Anita Pradan: In the UK. [01:13:15]

Payman Langroudi: No complaints can break your heart sometimes.

Anita Pradan: Yeah [01:13:20] they can, but I haven’t had a complaint in the UK, maybe [01:13:25] because I’ve not done any real complicated stuff and not done that much, [01:13:30] to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, you know, some people are really good at keeping it within their scope. Some people are [01:13:35] really bad at keeping it within their scope. And it’s a funny thing because you’ve got to do everything for the first [01:13:40] time in your life.

Anita Pradan: You have.

Payman Langroudi: To. So you know, your scope can’t just stick to what [01:13:45] you’ve done before. You can’t.

Anita Pradan: Yes, I think I think I learned a lot from my dad as well because he [01:13:50] worked. Obviously, he’s worked in the NHS for over 40 years, and the [01:13:55] main thing is to recognise the patients and how they, [01:14:00] you know, how they are as people, their personalities, which not always [01:14:05] shines through, but still to engage.

Payman Langroudi: Helps a lot with that.

Anita Pradan: Yes. To gauge as [01:14:10] much as possible and not to be pressured to do [01:14:15] treatment. You’re not, you know, very confident delivering. And [01:14:20] I think that that I always keep in mind because some, you know, sometimes you have that patient [01:14:25] do the extraction, you know, it’s fine. Uh, you know, you’re like, no, it’s I did have [01:14:30] a patient like that once full mouth extraction. He was quite, [01:14:35] um, quite a tall man and quite heavy built. And [01:14:40] to be honest, like he had been to that practice, um, for years, [01:14:45] but they couldn’t deliver all the treatment on site because he [01:14:50] was quite anxious. He came to me for a few appointments, and then his [01:14:55] sister came along with him and said that he’s really happy with me and he wants to do all [01:15:00] his treatment. And it was a compliment, but not, not really, because [01:15:05] he had full mouth extractions and then he wanted dentures. So I told him that the [01:15:10] thing is that his treatment had to be done in an upright [01:15:15] position because the chair couldn’t be reclined back.

Payman Langroudi: And he’s nervous.

Anita Pradan: And he’s nervous [01:15:20] and I’m short, so I couldn’t really.

Payman Langroudi: Reach themselves [01:15:25] were difficult.

Anita Pradan: Yes, the extractions were difficult. Some of them were root stumps. [01:15:30] And I thought.

Payman Langroudi: You were doing them all in one go.

Anita Pradan: No, in quadrants. And [01:15:35] I did tell him that one of the teeth that it it seems like [01:15:40] it’s quite badly broken down and I might not be able to get it out. It’s better to refer him. He’s like, no, just [01:15:45] try it anyway. But it was on the lower left side [01:15:50] and I was trying to reach the lower left side from his right side.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:15:55] you couldn’t move the chair at all.

Anita Pradan: I couldn’t move the chair, and nor could I stretch over because I’m [01:16:00] not tall enough. I think maybe I needed a stool, to be honest. So I pulled my back [01:16:05] in the process. Thank goodness the tooth broke as [01:16:10] expected. I knew it’s going to break. And then he was. He was still okay. [01:16:15] He was like, yeah, just file it down. It’s not giving me any problems. It was Nonvital. And [01:16:20] he was like, I’ll go to, you know, the hospital to have it extracted. But even through [01:16:25] all that, like he was, he was such a nice guy. But I thought, I’m going to get [01:16:30] a complaint now. But I just remember working [01:16:35] there and seeing all these patients from a practice which had shut down And [01:16:40] thinking to myself that I am going to get a complaint from here because [01:16:45] there were patients who were not mine who had come after us, especially. Quite [01:16:50] a lot of them came after root canal completion in pain. When [01:16:55] I took the X-ray, there’s there’s no filling in there. Open the tooth. [01:17:00] There’s no no root canal filling. It’s just like cotton in [01:17:05] the pulp chamber. That’s it.

Payman Langroudi: God.

Anita Pradan: But [01:17:10] fortunately, I was fine. And I completed all those treatments, and they were quite happy. [01:17:15] So I think my lesson, which I’ve learned from my [01:17:20] father, is that, you know, to know your scope. And of course, as you said, we have to try it [01:17:25] someday. We can’t say that. Oh, everything’s out of my scope. But, but to know the limitations [01:17:30] and to get proper training and, you know, to have guidance from, from your mentors [01:17:35] or whoever can support you, that’s quite important when you start.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:17:40] we’re getting on to the sort of final questions, a bit [01:17:45] of quickfire. Mhm. What’s the favourite lecture you’ve been to.

Anita Pradan: The [01:17:50] tactics lectures. Orthodontics. Absolutely amazing. [01:17:55] Brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: For someone who doesn’t understand like, what was it about that particular ortho [01:18:00] that blew you away?

Anita Pradan: The lecture was actually one that really stands [01:18:05] out is from Doctor Ines. And she was delivering the lectures on [01:18:10] um aligners. Anyway, I found Find orthodontics [01:18:15] really mesmerising, but the way that it was delivered and the, the [01:18:20] passion with which it was, it was absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Are you telling me it was more the content [01:18:25] than more the delivery than the content?

Anita Pradan: No, the content and the delivery. Both.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So she was she was [01:18:30] great deliverer. But content wise, what was it like tactically? What were they doing differently [01:18:35] with aligners or thinking differently with aligners?

Anita Pradan: First of all, obviously it was covering all types of aligners. [01:18:40] It was not focussed on anything in particular, but it was, you know, just to, to [01:18:45] open up your mind to think about aligners as, you [01:18:50] know, not to only think that, okay, I’m going to deliver aligner therapy for this patient, but to [01:18:55] be blind to the fact that you might not be able to do everything with aligners to know [01:19:00] the limitations and also to know like, you know, to what extent can you go with [01:19:05] it and, you know, the modifications, what you can do to, you know, to deliver that [01:19:10] treatment and to know the restrictions and you know.

Payman Langroudi: What it’s good at, what it’s [01:19:15] bad.

Anita Pradan: At. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It was the ways around the things that it’s bad at.

Anita Pradan: Yeah. And to, you know, to [01:19:20] troubleshooting. And it was just so comprehensive. It [01:19:25] was just absolutely amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Love that.

Anita Pradan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about your favourite resource [01:19:30] like your favourite? I don’t know, some people will say a book, some people will say a website, some people [01:19:35] will say an Instagram or YouTube.

Anita Pradan: Well, in recent times, I [01:19:40] think I’ve not read too much of Dental books, to be honest with you. The most I [01:19:45] read is the BDA, and I do find a lot of the articles very, very interesting. [01:19:50] But when I was at university, the book which I used to love most [01:19:55] was radiology. Eric Waite’s book. Oh really? I don’t know why I loved it so [01:20:00] much. I just found it. So I think I. I loved physics and a [01:20:05] lot of it physics. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: I love it. It’s funny, my daughter wants to be do dentistry now and [01:20:10] physics isn’t necessary. Yeah, but she loves physics. Physics [01:20:15] is. Now she’s going to do five A-levels just to include physics. Yes. And I’m [01:20:20] not sure that’s a good idea.

Anita Pradan: I don’t know, I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Not sure it’s a good idea. Five. Five is a lot of A-levels. [01:20:25]

Anita Pradan: It’s a lot of A-levels.

Payman Langroudi: Yes, yes.

Anita Pradan: But yeah, same with me. I think [01:20:30] I did physics because I just loved it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the best science. I think anyone says it’s so amazing. I mean, we [01:20:35] should say biology. We should, we should in my world, actually, [01:20:40] I wish I paid more attention in chemistry because chemistry has become huge in my world. I [01:20:45] have to now hire chemists all the time, and I don’t fully understand what they’re saying. Some [01:20:50] of the words are like familiar. Yeah, really [01:20:55] get it.

Anita Pradan: Sometimes when I was at school, I used to love physics and I [01:21:00] had this physics teacher in in Nepal and I studied in India as well, my [01:21:05] secondary school.

Payman Langroudi: So and then did you dad move to India as well? Is that why? Why were [01:21:10] you in India?

Anita Pradan: No. Um, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Just.

Anita Pradan: A lot of Nepalese people go to India to [01:21:15] study. And obviously India has very good education. So I did my, uh, secondary [01:21:20] school in India in boarding school, and then I did my A-levels here [01:21:25] in London, and then I went back to do my dentistry in India again.

Payman Langroudi: What an education [01:21:30] man. What an education. So interesting. All those different types of education. [01:21:35] Yeah.

Anita Pradan: I think the hardest thing was to come [01:21:40] for A-levels to London. That’s the hardest move because obviously you’re [01:21:45] already in a system and then you are doing very well, and suddenly you’re [01:21:50] in a completely different system where things are taught completely differently. Yeah, because India is [01:21:55] quite spoon fed, like everything, you know, you’re memorised. Yes. And here you come [01:22:00] to do A-levels and it’s like there’s no particular textbook. You’re just like, you know, doing [01:22:05] a lot of experiments, especially, you know, physics and like lots.

Payman Langroudi: Of levels are tough, man. It’s [01:22:10] really tough anyway if you’re in the system. But you’re right coming from an outside. Yeah. [01:22:15] System. And then I think they’ve got it. Part of it is they’re trying to say, all right, you’re no longer [01:22:20] a child. Yes. Now go off and start to become an adult.

Anita Pradan: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And [01:22:25] I remember in my school, the teachers had this thing about, hey, you know, if you don’t [01:22:30] do your homework or your test that’s on you. You know, it’s [01:22:35] a totally different way that they used to talk to you when you were 15 or 16. Yeah. Like it was on them and [01:22:40] they were going to punish you or whatever it was. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I guess [01:22:45] it’s, it’s the way of thinking of half adulthood, isn’t it? Yes. Yeah. [01:22:50] So final question. Fantasy dinner party, [01:22:55] three guests.

Anita Pradan: I thought about that. I can’t think of any [01:23:00] other alive. I was like, maybe, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, we just had our dinner [01:23:05] party.

Anita Pradan: Yes, we had our dinner party. Can’t really think of anyone to have for [01:23:10] a dinner party.

Payman Langroudi: Well, I mean, Einstein, Gandhi, you know, you know what I mean. You [01:23:15] got Einstein and your grandmother’s grandmother. You [01:23:20] know, it’s.

Anita Pradan: Actually, maybe. My, my, I [01:23:25] can’t think of three people, but definitely, I would say my grandmother on [01:23:30] my dad’s side because I never met her. And my grandfather [01:23:35] always, always talked such wonderful things about her.

Payman Langroudi: What were the stories [01:23:40] you say?

Anita Pradan: My grandmother, she passed away when my father was doing his dentistry. [01:23:45] So he always used to say that, you know, so my grandfather, [01:23:50] he, like he had another wife before, but she passed away. And that this grandmother is my [01:23:55] dad’s mother. So he always used to say that, you know, she although [01:24:00] not having had too much of an education, she was so intelligent, [01:24:05] you know, and the advice she used to give was absolutely brilliant. And she was [01:24:10] so warm and welcoming. And, you know, just the things she used to say. And I [01:24:15] think it’s quite a reflection of my dad in a way.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Um, but not [01:24:20] necessarily his siblings because they are quite different from him, but I would have loved [01:24:25] to have met her. Uh, yeah, I think she’s one person that, [01:24:30] uh, she never got to meet, but I think would have made a big difference [01:24:35] in in my life.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you know, when, when, when stories like that, [01:24:40] when, when someone died a long time before and stories like [01:24:45] that keep coming up. Mhm. It’s a sign that they were a special person. Yeah.

Anita Pradan: Yes. [01:24:50]

Payman Langroudi: Um, anyone else you can think of?

Anita Pradan: Um. [01:24:55] Not really. I haven’t really thought [01:25:00] about it.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. We’ll leave it at that. Thank you so much.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. Hope [01:25:05] you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure you tune in for future episodes. Hit subscribe [01:25:10] in iTunes or Google Play or whatever platform it is. And you know, we really, [01:25:15] really appreciate it. If you would, um, give.

Prav Solanki: Us a six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. [01:25:20] That’s what I always leave my Uber driver.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:25:25] a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.