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[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [00:00:40] in dentistry. Your hosts, [00:00:45] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:50] gives me great pleasure to welcome Dipali Dalia onto the podcast. It’s an amazing [00:00:55] story moving from general dentistry to specialist [00:01:00] periodontics, to the law and becoming a barrister. [00:01:05] And then it going sort of full circle and going back into perio. [00:01:10] Lovely to have you.

Dipali Dalia: Thank you so much for having me.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks for coming all this way with your knee.

Dipali Dalia: Oh, no. That’s my pleasure. [00:01:15] It’s good to get out, to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: I’m very interested in this idea of, you know, [00:01:20] motivation, you know, like what motivates [00:01:25] us to do what we do. Mhm. So a lot of us have parents sort [00:01:30] of pushed us this way or that. I remember mine, I had no idea. They said, try dentistry [00:01:35] like your uncle. I liked the guy. So I tried it. And that’s how it happened. Right, [00:01:40] right. But then motivations for what you want to achieve. And and we were [00:01:45] talking before the mics went on about contentment and this this sort of affair. And [00:01:50] so was it that you had you wanted to become a lawyer and your parents told [00:01:55] you to go to dentist or, you know, what was this itch you were trying to scratch?

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, well, that’s a really interesting one because I [00:02:00] was when I was about 13 or 14, I wanted to be a barrister then. Um, [00:02:05] I think possibly it’s not.

Payman Langroudi: Just look.

Dipali Dalia: Cool. I think it was, it [00:02:10] was about communication, about being able to fight someone’s argumentative. [00:02:15] I think, I mean, that’s the thing, you know, actually to be an effective barrister you shouldn’t [00:02:20] be argumentative. But there are probably in my in my teenage years, there probably was that element of, [00:02:25] you know, I want to I want to fight, I want to win my side of the argument kind of thing. Um, [00:02:30] and, you know, we were watching things like LA law at the time, weren’t we?

Payman Langroudi: That’s a blast [00:02:35] from the.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. Oh my God, I love that show. So, um, it was yeah, a [00:02:40] combination of things I suppose at that time. But then the bar wasn’t very diverse [00:02:45] then. And so I’d spoken to a few people who I think had scare [00:02:50] mongered a bit. I mean, now I see there are female Asian cases, you know, who are [00:02:55] my age. I could have done it, probably, but I was scared a little bit into, you know, [00:03:00] you’ll do all that, you’ll do all that education and then you won’t get you won’t get a tendency, [00:03:05] which is the equivalent of an associateship. And so that [00:03:10] made me think twice. Um, and then my dad [00:03:15] said, and then I thought, I know I’ll become a doctor. That sounds pretty cool.

Payman Langroudi: Were your parents lawyers or doctors? [00:03:20]

Dipali Dalia: My. No, my dad’s a pharmacist, was a pharmacist and had his own business. [00:03:25] So typical Gujarati Indian background business, you know. [00:03:30] So dad said, oh, why do you want to be a medic when you have to do all these long on calls? Why didn’t [00:03:35] you become a dentist? Because I said, I don’t want to become a pharmacist. Why don’t you become a dentist? Then you can have your [00:03:40] own business, you know. Oh. All right then. So I did some work experience. [00:03:45] Um, at.

Payman Langroudi: Where, where did you grow.

Dipali Dalia: Up? I grew up in Reigate, in Surrey.

Payman Langroudi: Still [00:03:50] there.

Dipali Dalia: Yes, I’m in Redhill now. Yeah. So just the town over. Um, I [00:03:55] kind of went back after living in London for a long time, so, um. But yeah. [00:04:00] And so dad arranged for me to do some work experience with a client of his who [00:04:05] was a dentist, who he used to supply medicines to. And um, it [00:04:10] was um, a kind of a very swish practice actually. It wasn’t the reality [00:04:15] of dentistry at that time. Ah, I worked there and I did some work experience there [00:04:20] and I thought, well, I could do this. You know, I didn’t probably really have any great. [00:04:25] Yeah, I will have a job at the end of it. That was the, that was the, um, [00:04:30] I think that was the main driver really. Um, I was quite good [00:04:35] with my hands, I suppose I, you know, and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Always, [00:04:40] always worked hard and was aiming for the best, you know, [00:04:45] pushed I suppose to I think early on, you know, it was almost [00:04:50] like in order to make my dad proud, you know, I had to do [00:04:55] well at school. You know, he was a busy man. And to get his attention, I found that was the most [00:05:00] effective way of getting his attention. But that kind of then became a part of who [00:05:05] I was that then I just, you know, just always challenging myself to, to be [00:05:10] the best. And yeah, studious kind of worked hard. I wasn’t, I wasn’t the brightest, but I [00:05:15] didn’t do too badly at school. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How do you reflect on that? I [00:05:20] mean, I don’t want to be silly about it, but like the conditional love that that happens [00:05:25] sometimes in that situation, but it’s a bit dramatic to call it good.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. I mean, I think.

Payman Langroudi: I think [00:05:30] we do it to our children too. I mean, I don’t think it’s.

Dipali Dalia: Intended as being.

Payman Langroudi: No, no.

Dipali Dalia: No, it’s [00:05:35] it’s the perception though. And it’s the thing that you see that, you know, what are my parents [00:05:40] going to it’s when kids act out, right. I’m not a parent. So but I I’ve you know, [00:05:45] seen enough my nieces, children’s friends, kids, etc. to [00:05:50] see that, you know, if you act out and you and you get the response, you’re going to act out [00:05:55] again because you’ll keep getting a response. Um, and at least it was, it was a positive thing, I [00:06:00] suppose, that, you know, elicited a response from, from my parents was doing well at school. [00:06:05] I think it’s a very, you know, an immigrant child, you know, [00:06:10] experience, isn’t it? Um, but, um, but yeah, it [00:06:15] was and then I say, as I say, it became sort of ingrained in my own character. And.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:06:20] are you the youngest?

Dipali Dalia: I’m the middle.

Payman Langroudi: Middle. Yeah.

Dipali Dalia: They’re three of us. So [00:06:25] I’ve got an older sister. She’s about seven years older than me and then a younger brother who’s 13 years younger [00:06:30] than me. So we’re.

Payman Langroudi: Those two end up.

Dipali Dalia: Doing we’re kind of, uh. So my sister’s a pharmacist, actually. Um, but [00:06:35] my brother’s a he’s a civil servant who works in the Foreign Office, so.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:06:40] but yeah, I guess by the time your brother comes along, it’s a whole different.

Dipali Dalia: Completely different, completely.

Payman Langroudi: You know, [00:06:45] they set up more, aren’t they, by that time.

Dipali Dalia: Well, I think also the opportunities that [00:06:50] were available.

Payman Langroudi: The world changed.

Dipali Dalia: The world changed. Like it wasn’t dentist, doctor, lawyer, engineer. It was. [00:06:55] Oh, well, actually, I’d never even thought of having a job in the civil service. It never even occurred [00:07:00] to me, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Um, I mean, it’s an interesting thing that the cycle [00:07:05] of recommending your kids to do medicine, dentistry. Um, I used to think, [00:07:10] no way am I going to do that to my kids. And now I’ve told my daughter, yeah, it’s a really good idea.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. [00:07:15]

Payman Langroudi: Well, and if we just keep on doing that. I mean, it’s a nice thing, right? You get medical [00:07:20] families. Mhm. At the same time, there’ll be no movies. There’d be no, you know, anything [00:07:25] interesting. If all of us end up being.

Dipali Dalia: Absolutely, absolutely. And actually, my brother [00:07:30] started off he did engineering at university, but with no intention of actually [00:07:35] becoming an engineer. He just enjoyed physics and maths and and then, you know, [00:07:40] and then he was open minded was just like, so now he’s kind of and he’s a linguist as well. He’s [00:07:45] proficient in French and Arabic through his work. And that’s nice. And it’s like, God, actually, [00:07:50] if I could rewind that, wouldn’t that would almost be something [00:07:55] I’d also be interested in doing, you know, learning languages or doing something completely different. [00:08:00]

Payman Langroudi: But you married an English guy.

Dipali Dalia: An Irish.

Payman Langroudi: Irish guy. How did that go down?

Dipali Dalia: Well, [00:08:05] I met him in a pub after.

Payman Langroudi: What did your.

Dipali Dalia: Parents oh, I see. Oh, yeah. [00:08:10] No. By the time I actually met him, I think they were just grateful that anyone was hoping to get married [00:08:15] to me. I met him when I was 36. I’d been eternally single up until that [00:08:20] point. No, no, they loved him. They absolutely loved him. My parents were because they came to this country when [00:08:25] they were very young. They were very liberal, actually. Um, and, you know, I [00:08:30] think possibly when I was younger, there was a bit of a oh, you know, we’d prefer if [00:08:35] you married someone Asian, but, you know, by the time I got into my late 20s, early 30s, there [00:08:40] was none of that. You know.

Payman Langroudi: The truth. I’m surprised how few Asians marry out, you [00:08:45] know, in this day and age. Yeah, yeah, I would have thought by now there’d be a lot more. There [00:08:50] are. I know. Yeah, I know loads who have.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But yeah, compared to the the percentage wise [00:08:55] it’s still a tiny number.

Dipali Dalia: I guess I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: And whether or not it’s a good. I’m not saying it’s good [00:09:00] or bad. I mean I would just just expected more.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. I wonder if it’s exposure though. Like it’s I [00:09:05] don’t know if you go to Newcastle University to do agriculture. Yeah. [00:09:10] You know, then your cohort is going to be more mixed. And I think, you know, at Dental school when I look at my [00:09:15] friends.

Payman Langroudi: What did you study.

Dipali Dalia: At King’s and.

Payman Langroudi: Near to just sort of go out to halls at least. [00:09:20]

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah. So and Hauser Lightfoot Halls on the King’s Road and, [00:09:25] and then, uh, I lived in intercollegiate halls. That was really good fun. Then we were in a house in [00:09:30] East Dulwich, but. Yeah, but your cohort is predominantly Asian, right? So I wonder [00:09:35] if there is a degree of that, that what is your exposure? Um, I [00:09:40] think it is becoming more, more mixed. Um, and, but I certainly [00:09:45] think that there’s just not that, um stigma anymore at [00:09:50] all really. Yeah. I, I don’t know, I might be wrong maybe, you know, in [00:09:55] some places of, in the country, in some communities it might be, but I think it’s a lot [00:10:00] more relaxed than it used to be.

Payman Langroudi: I had someone here recently and she was saying she had a daughter, [00:10:05] not a son. And, uh, parents were unhappy.

Dipali Dalia: Oh, right. [00:10:10] Oh, really?

Dipali Dalia: Oh, well, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I was, I really.

Dipali Dalia: I still think we were that past. [00:10:15] Past.

Dipali Dalia: But this is it, isn’t it? Within every community, you’re going to have most people in the, [00:10:20] in the, in the middle part. And then, you know, you’re going to find the extremes, aren’t you? So so I [00:10:25] guess my parents were on the on the liberal side. And, and even though my husband is Irish, actually. [00:10:30]

Payman Langroudi: What kind of Irish is he like Republic or.

Dipali Dalia: Yes.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, yeah, he’s from Cork. Yeah. Um, [00:10:35] but his parents are very similar to my parents and they got on like a house on fire. [00:10:40] The two sets of in-laws are really close. Very, very good friends. Um, [00:10:45] and it was, I think for them, it was more about, you know, is the [00:10:50] family nice? You know, is the, is, is the boy going to look after me? Kind of be good to me, [00:10:55] you know, more than anything else. Um, because yeah, just because you marry someone [00:11:00] who is the same, has the same background as you is, is no guarantee.

Payman Langroudi: For plenty.

Dipali Dalia: Of horror stories. [00:11:05] Exactly, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: So so yeah, what about on his side? Was there [00:11:10] any friction on his side at all? Nothing at all.

Dipali Dalia: Love that. No. No they they yeah. They were so.

Payman Langroudi: Involved. [00:11:15] Is he involved in law or dentistry or.

Dipali Dalia: No, no. He um he works for BMW. So [00:11:20] yeah he is um he kind of works on the business side. So he’s in head [00:11:25] office. Um but no, not not uh, not um anything. [00:11:30]

Payman Langroudi: So you qualified. So how were you as a student? Were you, were you, um, which student were you? [00:11:35]

Dipali Dalia: I think I was a work hard, play hard student. Yeah, yeah, I think [00:11:40] um, yeah, I mean, I can certainly remember a, you know, a good few [00:11:45] memorable nights out and so on. But I think when it came to exams, I did buckle down [00:11:50] and I, you know, I was, I was blessed with a good brain as well. Like I, I, you [00:11:55] know, I was lucky in that respect that things seemed to kind of stick in my head.

Payman Langroudi: A lot of times. [00:12:00] You know, people blessed with a good brain don’t work very hard, you know, because, you know, they, they, they pick stuff up [00:12:05] quickly.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, yeah. I think I was too scared though. I was, yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: Was fear of.

Dipali Dalia: Dad. I [00:12:10] was all my, all my uni friends, if they hear this they’ll just be rolling their eyes right now because [00:12:15] I was that I’m going to fail. I’m gonna fail girl. And then I did all right. And so I’d be like, oh, for [00:12:20] God’s sake, just shut up.

Payman Langroudi: So how how long before you decided [00:12:25] you want to specialise? Was it something you decided early on?

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, I think so. [00:12:30] Because like I say, I, I did, um, I Really [00:12:35] did not enjoy general dentistry. So when I did maxfacts to see, you know, what else is going on. [00:12:40] Yeah. And I loved that. It scared the living daylights [00:12:45] out of me, I was terrified.

Payman Langroudi: Where was.

Dipali Dalia: It? Um, Wolverhampton. So Dudley and Wolverhampton. [00:12:50] Yeah. Yeah. Um. But yeah, like being on Call of [00:12:55] Duty. I used to lie awake just looking at my bleep praying it wouldn’t go [00:13:00] off.

Payman Langroudi: You know I’ve done a job like that.

Dipali Dalia: It was. But it was a baptism of fire and it gave me [00:13:05] such confidence.

Payman Langroudi: Cancer cases.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. Yeah. But I mean yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Just.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah [00:13:10] yeah. All of that. And that was just brilliant to watch these. Oh my. I worked for a man [00:13:15] called Nick Weir and he had the hands of an artist. I mean, he is, he was [00:13:20] just brilliant. He was so very frightening consultant to work for. You know, you had [00:13:25] to really be on, on your game back then.

Payman Langroudi: It was almost part of being a surgeon.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. [00:13:30]

Payman Langroudi: To scream at people.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because I remember I had a guy, he You scream the hell.

Dipali Dalia: Out of me. Yeah, yeah, [00:13:35] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I just thought it was me. And then we said. We said, oh, before. Before the war drowned us all. Have [00:13:40] breakfast. Yeah. And he screamed at the, the lady serving him the bacon as well. Oh [00:13:45] my God. Yeah. And I was like okay. And I just thought he must be under pressure. He was under pressure.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: He [00:13:50] was under pressure. But back then it was like part of the job.

Dipali Dalia: It was. Yeah, exactly. Like I remember once we were.

Payman Langroudi: Doing I [00:13:55] can’t imagine anyone would get away with that stuff.

Dipali Dalia: Oh God. I mean, I, I was he was doing a parotidectomy [00:14:00] once I remember this really clearly and I was, you know, you’re there with your retractors you’re like, what’s going on? And [00:14:05] I just leant over and he not quite headbutted me, but he used his head to push my head out [00:14:10] of the way. And he was.

Payman Langroudi: Like.

Dipali Dalia: Get out of my fucking light. He was like, okay, fine, I’ll just stand [00:14:15] here like this. And, um. But God, he threatened to hang one of the hose [00:14:20] out the window by his ankles and things like this, or by his underpants or something. And it [00:14:25] definitely wouldn’t fly now, but, you know, we just took it and it was character building, you know, you [00:14:30] knew he gave you a line and you. You couldn’t cross it and you had to do [00:14:35] your job, and quite rightly so. This is a really, really important, [00:14:40] you know, surgeries that you’re assisting in or very vulnerable patients you’re looking after. You have to [00:14:45] be on it. But at the same time, he was, you know, he was very kind and, and gave praise where praise was due. [00:14:50] So, um, how.

Payman Langroudi: Long did you.

Dipali Dalia: Do that? I did that for a year.

Payman Langroudi: So then a year had gone by. [00:14:55] You were kind of deciding, do I go into oral surgery?

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. So I knew [00:15:00] I’d have to. Well, I thought I’d have to go back into general practice. So but [00:15:05] I, um, I wanted to carry on with the oral surgery. So I called Pat Reynolds, who [00:15:10] is one of our tutors in oral surgery at King’s, and said, look, um, I don’t mind doing it. Even [00:15:15] an honorary job, even if it’s like one day a week. I don’t mind if you don’t pay me, [00:15:20] but I want to keep my hand in the oral surgery side of things. And she said, well, actually, look, we’ve got some jobs, staff grades. [00:15:25] So that was not just doing the clinical work, but and it was oral surgery, not maxillofacial staff [00:15:30] grade. So it was all, uh, moss stuff for teaching as well. So I had [00:15:35] my first taste of teaching, um, quite early on, really in 2002 to 4. [00:15:40] And then during that time I was considering doing, uh, [00:15:45] surgical dentistry as a speciality. Um, because I really just, I just didn’t want to [00:15:50] do general practice. I think that was my main kind of reason.

Payman Langroudi: I hate it so much.

Dipali Dalia: I [00:15:55] don’t know, I think I just wasn’t I think drew said, because I listened to Drew’s episode [00:16:00] and he said something which kind of resonated with me. And he said that he felt he didn’t have that [00:16:05] technical somehow, that technical thing with his hand, you know, for, for doing [00:16:10] all aspects of. But he enjoyed the surgery. And I think I’m very much like that. I was much [00:16:15] better with a scalpel than I was with a handpiece. And I somehow don’t know if I didn’t have that 3D perspective [00:16:20] on, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Um, because lots of people are the opposite. Aren’t [00:16:25] they.

Dipali Dalia: Scared?

Payman Langroudi: Scared of a scalpel? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Last thing I want [00:16:30] to do is cut a flap. Yeah.

Dipali Dalia: Actually, one of the other reasons I did, Max [00:16:35] fax is because I was terrified of taking teeth out. You know, I wasn’t very good at it.

Payman Langroudi: Leant in.

Dipali Dalia: So [00:16:40] I thought, I’m not going to wake up every morning being absolutely terrified that I’ve [00:16:45] got an extraction on my list. I cannot go through the next 40 years of dentistry feeling that way. I’ve got [00:16:50] to sort this out. And that’s also why I didn’t apply to him, but on a bigger teaching hospital, [00:16:55] because I thought, I’m going to get drowned in all the shows. I’m never going to get a chance to do anything. Um, [00:17:00] and so yeah, being one of four, uh, was quite good because we had [00:17:05] lots and lots of hands on experience. So, um, but yeah, I know it was scary, [00:17:10] you know? Um, but yeah, so then, then I, um, was.

Payman Langroudi: Back [00:17:15] to.

Dipali Dalia: Practice. Yeah. So, so I was back to practice. No, sorry. I went to oral surgery, did [00:17:20] the oral surgery. And then, um, we did work in practice at the same time as well. [00:17:25] So doing was doing this the two side by side. Um, and then, uh, my friend Sammy, [00:17:30] Sammy Darwish said, oh, he was applying for perio and he thought it would be a, you [00:17:35] know, something for me to think. And I thought, actually, yeah, you know, at that time there was [00:17:40] a really big sort of demand for it. And in general, in practice rather, um, [00:17:45] it was something that we were all aware that dentists had not really [00:17:50] taken too seriously and there was going to be a big litigious boom, you know, with all of this. And, [00:17:55] and it was, it is a surgical speciality. Um, so, so that’s really where my [00:18:00] perio journey started.

Payman Langroudi: Where did you study period?

Dipali Dalia: Guys.

Payman Langroudi: Full [00:18:05] time.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. Uh, no part time. So four years, four years. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And practising at the [00:18:10] same time.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. Practice.

Payman Langroudi: At one point I was like.

Dipali Dalia: Two years, two days in practice, three days [00:18:15] at college and either a night or a weekend doing [00:18:20] EDS, emergency dental. It was, it was a full on, really full on. But I loved [00:18:25] it. It was brilliant. Um, it was, it was tough. [00:18:30] It was a hard the bar course was really, really hard. Um, and [00:18:35] did nearly kill me at the end. But my um clin dent, it took me years to recover [00:18:40] from it. It was.

Payman Langroudi: Tough. Yeah.

Dipali Dalia: I’ve heard that it was really tough. Um, and [00:18:45] especially at the end when you’re presenting your cases, you’re getting your case presentations together, you’re selecting [00:18:50] your cases, you know, how am I going to showcase my talents? And, and you think certain patients [00:18:55] are going to work out and you’re working to the wire because you have to review them a certain amount of [00:19:00] weeks before your exam. And oh God, the whole thing was, and I had some great [00:19:05] friends in my year though, and we all got each other through it.

Payman Langroudi: So someone’s going to hear this, and they might be at that point in their [00:19:10] career where they’ve just qualified. Yeah. And they’re considering which way to go. Mhm. [00:19:15] And you know, if we, let’s say you want to, I mean, it’s definitely [00:19:20] makes sense to learn more, right? Let’s say you want to learn more and you’re considering [00:19:25] specialise or not, and you’re considering [00:19:30] which speciality. And I hear this from dentists all the time. Really. Like, you [00:19:35] know, it’s obvious why you don’t know, do you? You’re not sure, but you get young dentists says, I don’t [00:19:40] know. I don’t know which speciality to go into. And I don’t even know if I should specialise because I could become a [00:19:45] DWC or whatever it is. I could do courses. Yeah. What are your thoughts around [00:19:50] that? I mean, is it a particular type of person who subjects themselves to the qualification? Did [00:19:55] you consider not getting the qualification and doing courses or were you just like.

Dipali Dalia: No, [00:20:00] I think I was quite hard to get qualification and I think I wanted it wasn’t so much qualification. [00:20:05] I just wanted to be very proficient in one thing and commit to that. Um, [00:20:10] and so, you know, but I do think that there is, and [00:20:15] I, and I forgive me if maybe I’ve got this wrong, but I seem to. I feel [00:20:20] that there is a tendency for dentists now when they’re young, wanting [00:20:25] to specialise before they really even experienced [00:20:30] life and practice. Um, because there is this ambition, right to, [00:20:35] to do and, and it is apparently the thing to do, I suppose after it’s not just, [00:20:40] you know, it’s kind of the next step on general dentistry or what, and I don’t know why [00:20:45] they’re thinking about specialising even before they know whether they do or don’t like general [00:20:50] dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: I get it very common in the US. Yeah, very, very common.

Dipali Dalia: But [00:20:55] I, I, I know generalists who are absolutely incredible clinicians [00:21:00] who haven’t specialised.

Payman Langroudi: My, my point is this that if let’s say like you, you, you were going to [00:21:05] specialise, you decided you were going to specialise.

Dipali Dalia: But that was my exit from general dentistry. [00:21:10]

Payman Langroudi: No, no, but it would have been absolutely fine if in your third year. Yeah. You you [00:21:15] decided you wanted to be a periodontist And within that time. I’m not [00:21:20] saying you were qualified to decide. Yeah, yeah. But if you had decided. Yeah. Um, within [00:21:25] that time you, you know, with guys or you were in kings, you’ve got some of [00:21:30] the world’s leaders in, in perio. Yeah. You could have talked to, to, to, to that person. [00:21:35] He could have recommended you go and see his friend in San Francisco. You could have very early [00:21:40] on gone down that path and gone straight from qualifying to, to residency [00:21:45] program or something in the US for the sake of the argument. Yeah, yeah. And there isn’t something [00:21:50] that says you would have been a periodontist because the the course would have [00:21:55] taken care of that. Yeah. Now are you qualified aged 20 one third [00:22:00] year of dental school to say I want to be a periodontist? Yeah. I don’t know. At the same time, [00:22:05] don’t you think you love anything you’re good at?

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, but I didn’t know I was good at it. Yeah. [00:22:10] I suppose I see what you’re saying, but, like, say, for example, as an undergraduate, I loved paediatric dentistry. [00:22:15] Yeah. I would hate to treat a child now. You know the reality [00:22:20] of it.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve evolved to a different person. But let’s let’s say you you said endo. Yeah. And you got really [00:22:25] good at endo. You’d love endo.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. I suppose it depends [00:22:30] on what your motivation is to do it. Right. So if you know you’re really good at something and [00:22:35] you have a passion for.

Payman Langroudi: It, you would get good at it by becoming a specialist, right?

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. But [00:22:40] it’s a, it’s a lot to.

Payman Langroudi: Look.

Dipali Dalia: At. It’s a big commitment to, to undertake.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:22:45] get.

Dipali Dalia: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: That. Your side of the argument is very obvious. You [00:22:50] know, who are you at that age? But what I’m saying is if you don’t know. Yeah. [00:22:55] There’s one thing that says go, go start doing general. And then where do they go? They go to an NHS [00:23:00] practice. They start de-skilling.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. But I mean, but you can also you can [00:23:05] if you really do have um a, an interest in a particular speciality, [00:23:10] there are and this is where, you know, I was talking about the collegiate aspect of our of our profession. [00:23:15] Yeah. That, you know, if there are people who are out there who are willing [00:23:20] to mentor you, you know, okay, as a new graduate, you don’t want to be taking two [00:23:25] days off a week to go and to go and shadow someone, you know, you’ve got student loans to pay, you’ve got, [00:23:30] you’ve got to be effective in sort of your in generating an income as well. But once [00:23:35] a month, you can go and, you know, reach out to a specialist. Can I come and shadow? I’ve had lots of [00:23:40] people come and shadow me. I’m more than happy to sit and talk to, to, to.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a very [00:23:45] good point. A lot of people don’t ever think about even reaching out.

Dipali Dalia: You don’t have it’s not all or nothing. You know, there are. [00:23:50] You can go on courses. You can. You know, if I do a hands on periodontal course, [00:23:55] are my hands going to do what I want them to do? Is this going to suit me? I thought when I did my perio [00:24:00] specialist training that I’d be putting in implants left, right and centre. I’m not very good at it. I [00:24:05] just don’t see it in three dimensions. It’s not something I choose to do. It’s not something I enjoy [00:24:10] having even sort of done the specialist training in it. Um, so [00:24:15] I think you can figure out really whether it’s something that there is going to be [00:24:20] worth you investing time, effort, energy, you know, it’s [00:24:25] loss of income, it’s not just fees in that time.

Payman Langroudi: Do you talk money? How much does it cost?

Dipali Dalia: Then [00:24:30] it was I think the whole course cost about 25 grand.

Payman Langroudi: 25 grand [00:24:35] a year.

Dipali Dalia: Oh, I dread to think. I dread to think. It must be. It must be nothing.

Payman Langroudi: Less [00:24:40] than that.

Dipali Dalia: No. Well, I mean, if you think how much undergraduate training is that? It’s [00:24:45] you know.

Payman Langroudi: But you’re right about the lost income as well.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Two days a week. Three days a.

Dipali Dalia: Week. Yeah. Yeah. [00:24:50] It’s significant.

Payman Langroudi: So you become a periodontist. Mhm. What’s your next move?

Dipali Dalia: So then I worked, [00:24:55] um, as a sort of visiting specialist in a number of. So I worked [00:25:00] in a, my main job was in a special with a specialist practice which I’m still in now, [00:25:05] so near Portsmouth, near Portsmouth and Havant. It’s called Emsworth Specialist Practice. And [00:25:10] basically one of my period tutors had a she was starting her practice or she had started. [00:25:15] It was quite a small thing. She was getting very busy. She invited myself and my friend to go and join her [00:25:20] to help. Um, and I thought I’d do it for a few years. But nearly two decades on, I’m [00:25:25] still there.

Payman Langroudi: Most of the work there is by referral.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, all of it. Yeah, we’re a referral practice. [00:25:30] Back then we only did perio and she was on oral surgery list [00:25:35] as well. Um, so she did a little bit of surgery, but it was predominantly perio. [00:25:40] Now we have a prosthodontist and an implant surgeon that comes in, but it is still fundamentally, [00:25:45] uh, you know, a periodontal practice.

Payman Langroudi: So the trend now is much more for people to bring [00:25:50] specialists into their own practices.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I guess this one’s been around long enough to sort of. [00:25:55]

Dipali Dalia: I think so I think it’s been around long enough. I think we do have our, you know, we’ve had [00:26:00] people who’ve been referring to us for a long time, a number of whom have retired now. And so the landscape [00:26:05] is changing and there are a few more specialists sort of in the area [00:26:10] as well.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I mean, I think it’s really interesting that in little pockets, um, [00:26:15] uh, specialists can go and dominate. I knew a [00:26:20] guy, uh, I know a guy, uh, Pete Strand.

Dipali Dalia: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, you taught me. Oh, yeah. [00:26:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Dipali Dalia: Great guy. Yeah. He’s lovely. He’s fabulous.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, but in Ashford, yeah, him and, uh, had [00:26:30] a had a practice.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, there was, there wasn’t a periodontist for [00:26:35] miles around.

Dipali Dalia: No. Well, that’s the same as us in Portsmouth. Yeah. Yeah. But there was no one. We had someone [00:26:40] in 1 or 2 people in Southampton. There was one [00:26:45] person in Winchester.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Dipali Dalia: And then there was no [00:26:50] one until Brighton. So we had a really, you know, big catchment area. [00:26:55]

Payman Langroudi: Um but you know, earlier we were talking about the West End and, and the difference between [00:27:00] getting, getting, going somewhere like that. Yeah. And making a sort of centre [00:27:05] of excellence locally. Yeah. Compared to being in the West End, where.

Dipali Dalia: There’s.

Payman Langroudi: 100 periodontists. [00:27:10]

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s an interesting idea. Not everyone thinks about it.

Dipali Dalia: No. And I’m really grateful [00:27:15] to have been able to jump onto, you know, Amanda’s bandwagon. Amanda Biddle was my tutor. Um, [00:27:20] you know, when we. And she’s just the way that she ran, [00:27:25] her practice was very efficient. The workflow was amazing. Um, and, [00:27:30] you know, and I’ve, I’ve kind of duplicated that workflow into other places. So I did [00:27:35] work in, in, I mean, when I first graduated or qualified as a specialist, I was probably in about [00:27:40] seven different practices and then slowly, slowly whittled that down for for one reason [00:27:45] or another. Um, but yeah, you know, the workflow was good and, and [00:27:50] it was good to be kind of working with someone who had trained me. [00:27:55] So they knew or rather I knew or we knew [00:28:00] how each other worked because it was the same sort of approach [00:28:05] to, to looking after the patients. So it was a very good foundation, [00:28:10] which.

Payman Langroudi: As a dentist who relies on referrals, your [00:28:15] customer air quotes is kind of the dentist. [00:28:20] Yeah. As opposed to the patient. And of course, the patients. Absolutely.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But tell [00:28:25] me about that. I mean, because I was really surprised that now I’ve been talking to a lot of specialists, how [00:28:30] few referrals each specialist has insomuch as it’s [00:28:35] not about the numbers, but the number of referrals. Right. But the reliance on a [00:28:40] few dentists and how precarious that is.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, someone retires, [00:28:45] someone moves and completely changes your referral situation.

Dipali Dalia: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:28:50] do you know what is it? What what value add do you have as a as a periodontist. Like if I [00:28:55] refer to you, what do you do to keep me referring to you? [00:29:00]

Dipali Dalia: Well, I think firstly, we’re very good with our communication. So, you know, the letters that go out, [00:29:05] they’re very comprehensive. Um the and you know, and we [00:29:10] will sort of share even if we don’t treat the patient, [00:29:15] if the patient’s got very minor disease, we’re very happy to provide a treatment plan. You know, so I [00:29:20] think that, um, that in itself, just this kind of openness [00:29:25] and willing to kind of communicate with the dentist. And I always say to my patients, me and your dentist [00:29:30] will work together to provide a team approach for your care. And I think that is fundamental. [00:29:35] Um, so not only will I, will, I write to [00:29:40] them, but in certain situations, I’ll phone dentists, I’ll, you know, if, if they feel [00:29:45] that something is an appropriate thing, but I might have a different take on it. I’d rather I’d say to [00:29:50] the patient, we will have a discussion. We will decide between us what we think is the best way to move forwards, [00:29:55] etc.. Um, I think making sure that we’re very clear [00:30:00] on not providing any further treatment.

Payman Langroudi: Depending on their toes.

Dipali Dalia: No, [00:30:05] treading on that is absolutely paramount.

Payman Langroudi: I remember I used to refer to Pete and [00:30:10] I as a young associate. My question was, can these teeth take a crown or not? [00:30:15] Yeah. What’s the like the the common situation I had and what he would do is he would [00:30:20] he would treat the perio and the patient would come back saying, yeah, the expert said, I should definitely have those [00:30:25] two crowns. Yeah. And it was so interesting. It was such a great thing because he’s the expert.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, [00:30:30] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so the patient comes back not only perio sorted but also now [00:30:35] restoratively reinforced.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. Well I think and that is that is.

Payman Langroudi: That goes a long way.

Dipali Dalia: It does go a [00:30:40] long way. It does go a long way. And I think that, you know, if and [00:30:45] again, it’s that situation of if I really felt that a tooth is not restorable or shouldn’t [00:30:50] be, I wouldn’t say that categorically to the patient.

Payman Langroudi: The whole reason the patient sent to you.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, but I wouldn’t [00:30:55] necessarily. But if the dentist is if I’m feeling that the dentist wants to crown it, I’m not gonna throw [00:31:00] the dentist under the bus by going, oh, no, I don’t know why they’re thinking that. I’m gonna say.

Payman Langroudi: You figured out that [00:31:05] delicate, delicate dance.

Dipali Dalia: It is a delicate it is a it is a you know, it’s a masterclass in diplomacy, [00:31:10] you know, and, uh, and at the end of the day.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, classically, classically, [00:31:15] he’s lost a tooth. Mhm. Now, there are two abutments.

Dipali Dalia: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Should you bridge [00:31:20] these very involved teeth or should it be an implant or what should you do? That’s where you get [00:31:25] stuck as a generalist.

Dipali Dalia: Exactly. Yeah. But it’s and I think what’s important [00:31:30] the or the power in the decision that you make or explaining [00:31:35] or persuading the dentist or the patient that your, um, [00:31:40] recommendation is the right one is by breaking it down saying, well, because of this, [00:31:45] this, this, and this, it’s a good idea or because of X, Y, Z, it really isn’t a good idea. And [00:31:50] then when everyone, rather than saying yes or no, it’s the explanation that goes with it [00:31:55] so they can understand what you’re thinking is. I think there’s a lot of power in that as well. [00:32:00]

Payman Langroudi: So what is the decision making criteria in a situation like that? Well the amount of bone. Yeah. [00:32:05]

Dipali Dalia: The amount of bone.

Payman Langroudi: The occlusion.

Dipali Dalia: The occlusion, the restorability of the teeth, [00:32:10] you know, are they endodontically involved? Are they deep fillings in there? I mean, it’s yeah, it’s [00:32:15] nothing.

Payman Langroudi: There’s no.

Dipali Dalia: Magic. There’s no.

Payman Langroudi: Formula.

Dipali Dalia: No. Absolutely not. There’s no [00:32:20] kind of. Yeah. Um, it’s, it’s basic dentistry, you know, and that’s [00:32:25] the thing is that, you know, we have this moniker specialist, but that doesn’t mean that we don’t [00:32:30] lean, rely heavily on all our generalist training and, and that I think [00:32:35] that empowers you as a specialist to remember. Well, actually, I can you [00:32:40] know, I often see on these forums, dentists have sent patients to the hospital and [00:32:45] the hospitals come back and said, well, I want you to do X, Y, z, a, b, c and the dentist is like a I’m [00:32:50] an NHS practitioner. B this patient’s, you know, mouth opening [00:32:55] is so limited. I am not a you know, I’m not trained to a a [00:33:00] secondary care level in providing endo. How are they expecting me to restore this [00:33:05] upper right. Seven. You know, um, and I think it’s being sort [00:33:10] of thoughtful of, of what that I can give my ivory tower answer. [00:33:15] It’s impractical. That’s not helping anybody, you know, least of all the patient. [00:33:20] Um, and so I think, you know, remembering how or thinking [00:33:25] if I was a generalist, would I want to do this is, is, is really important. [00:33:30] And I think it, I think that also helps the specialist to be the kind of [00:33:35] person that a generalist wants to refer to that they’re not having these lofty ideas [00:33:40] that, you know.

Payman Langroudi: That aren’t. It makes a lot of sense. It’s the real world, right?

Dipali Dalia: It’s the real world. Exactly. [00:33:45]

Payman Langroudi: And how much of your work is perio disease and how much of your work is things like, uh, aesthetic, [00:33:50] like, you know, when you’ve got recession and.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean plastic surgery, that sort.

Dipali Dalia: Of thing where [00:33:55] we are mostly is disease. Yeah. Um, and, [00:34:00] you know, we do have some recession cases that come in. I, I’m quite conservative in my approach [00:34:05] to these things in that, you know, if someone’s got 3 or 4mm of [00:34:10] lower incisor recession they’ve had for ten years after ortho, and it’s not got [00:34:15] any worse. I’m not going to be rushing to graft that. You know, I don’t think [00:34:20] that that’s just because I enjoy doing it or just because, you know, it might look [00:34:25] pretty, but no one’s going to see it. The patient has to spend over a grand or whatever having [00:34:30] it done and it might fail. You know, that’s not something that I that [00:34:35] I’m going to be doing loads of. But we don’t the predominantly what is [00:34:40] referred to us is, is disease management. So yeah, I would say that that is the bulk of our [00:34:45] work and. Peri peri Implantitis management. Peri implantitis.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about that [00:34:50] bit.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, there’s a lot.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a lot of it.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And the treatment of [00:34:55] it. Is it predictable?

Dipali Dalia: No.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Dipali Dalia: And again, you know, I’ll [00:35:00] say there’s so much that will inform the predictability of that [00:35:05] kind of treatment. So if it’s a patient who is not periodontally susceptible [00:35:10] and has had an implant placed, and there was a little bit of [00:35:15] cement that was retained and has caused this bone loss, you [00:35:20] kind of know if you clean it all up, it probably will resolve. [00:35:25] It probably will improve if they’ve got a rip roaring periodontal [00:35:30] disease, they’re very periodontally susceptible. And they’ve had, you know, [00:35:35] peri implantitis around other implants that have not responded, then, [00:35:40] you know, you’re kind of on a hiding to nothing. It is about it is about the patient, not just about what [00:35:45] you do. It’s about how they respond to what you do. Um, and so, you know, [00:35:50] the first thing I’ll say to all patients is it’s not very predictable, but [00:35:55] if we can stop it in its tracks. So if the bone [00:36:00] loss is to a certain point where, you know, if there’s two thirds of the bone lost over [00:36:05] a short period of time, you’re on a hiding to nothing. It’s a waste of everyone’s time. [00:36:10] You know, if it’s been going on for a long time and it’s maybe a third [00:36:15] of the bone has been lost, you might take a bit more of a equivocal [00:36:20] approach and just say, well, let’s treat it, but [00:36:25] I’m warning you, this might not be the end.

Dipali Dalia: So I tend to do non-surgical treatment with [00:36:30] some adjunctive antibiotics. See how that responds. And quite often [00:36:35] that will help to resolve the inflammation. Um, and you get [00:36:40] sort of, uh, pocket depth reduction to the point where patients can clean well around the implant, [00:36:45] etc. and then they can stay stable for many, many years. [00:36:50] If you try it non-surgically and then if the pockets start coming back or [00:36:55] you haven’t got very good resolution, then you might take a step to do some surgical intervention. [00:37:00] Um, and then, you know, I won’t talk more about that because [00:37:05] everyone’s going to have different opinions on whether you bone graft or whether you put membranes, whether you [00:37:10] resect, you know, we all have very different ideas. And I know what I do, but I don’t know if [00:37:15] everyone else would agree with me. I tend to take more of a receptive approach unless unless it’s in the [00:37:20] aesthetic zone, and then it just becomes tricky anyway. So, you know, but [00:37:25] it but the, the heart of anything you do or the first thing you have to warn everyone is this [00:37:30] might not work. This is a last ditch attempt. And it’s better that we try [00:37:35] this than you go through having to have this implant refined out of your jaw, [00:37:40] you know, which is not uncomplicated surgeries. So yeah. [00:37:45] And again.

Payman Langroudi: How soon are you seeing? I know it’s different in every case, but what’s [00:37:50] the shortest period of time where you see actually, this this this implant is failing.

Dipali Dalia: Um, it [00:37:55] is really difficult actually, because some, some of them within.

Payman Langroudi: As early as [00:38:00] 18 months after it’s placed.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. But then that means it’s probably not integrated properly in the first place. [00:38:05] Okay. There might be an element of that anyway. Um, but probably [00:38:10] yeah, a couple of years, 2 or 3 years. It could be. Yeah. Very, very minor [00:38:15] beginning. Some of it of course is just the um the alveolar [00:38:20] ridge just resorbing and settling, you know, and then there’s this. And then sometimes [00:38:25] it looks like there’s a sort of, there are bony defects, but it depends on the shape of the abutment as well. Okay. [00:38:30] And where the um fixture head level has been placed, there are so many different, [00:38:35] you know, factors. I’m, I think at what I’m seeing is [00:38:40] patients I’ve been seeing for a long time that have had implants, have had no problems. Once [00:38:45] they start coming to the 10 to 12 year mark out of nowhere. [00:38:50] They’re then beginning to develop issues.

Payman Langroudi: Ageing, right?

Dipali Dalia: So I don’t think [00:38:55] ageing is necessarily got. Oh really? Yeah. Yeah. I’m not convinced [00:39:00] that because periodontitis is not something that is age dependent. It is. [00:39:05] It’s about. No, no. So I’ve had 80 year old patients who have come. [00:39:10] They’ve got very little bone loss. Um and might, might actually end [00:39:15] up being referred to us because they’ve actually got a perio endo lesion um or something like that. [00:39:20] Um or they’ve got one tooth where there’s a bit of a furcation involvement, but generally [00:39:25] they’re quite periodontally resistant. So it depends on their genetic susceptibility really [00:39:30] as opposed to um it’s not part of the ageing [00:39:35] process. I mean obviously if you’ve got calculus that’s been in someone’s head for 45 [00:39:40] years is going to have less of a or more of a problem than if it’s only been in their head [00:39:45] for ten years. Right. Because it’s time dependent.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, obviously you’re the expert. I would have thought, you know, [00:39:50] there’s enough undiagnosed prediabetes out there that and that [00:39:55] tends to be a thing that comes with age. And so maybe there’s a, there’s a.

Dipali Dalia: I mean, I think, [00:40:00] I think the diabetes thing, if you’re, if you have some inherent susceptibility, it can tip you over.

Payman Langroudi: You’re [00:40:05] right. Right, right, right.

Dipali Dalia: But I think it’s about the inherent susceptibility first, like there are diabetics out there who [00:40:10] won’t have any gum disease. It’s it’s not, it’s not like.

Payman Langroudi: I thought it was like.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. No. Not necessarily. [00:40:15]

Payman Langroudi: And are you enjoying all this movement towards the sort of mouth body [00:40:20] sort of connection?

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Actually I must be for a periodontist.

Dipali Dalia: It’s really, it’s really fascinating [00:40:25] actually, because I think there was a point where when I was doing my max fax job, you talk about the, [00:40:30] um, focal infection theory and how it was debunked and, and all of [00:40:35] this. Now really essentially that’s kind of coming back into play. Um, well, there was [00:40:40] a BSP that we went to a couple of years ago where we had a couple of doctors come and talk to us about, [00:40:45] you know, kind of this very compelling evidence of inflammatory markers being increased and, [00:40:50] you know, periodontal pathogens being found in, um, in the brain or [00:40:55] in or in, uh.

Payman Langroudi: The heart valves.

Dipali Dalia: Exactly [00:41:00] in arteries or rather in the coronary arteries and crossing the placenta and [00:41:05] things. And that was very, I was quite kind of not 100% sure whether it was a bit of a, oh, he’s just [00:41:10] scaremongering our patients. But I do really believe that an increase in inflammation in your in [00:41:15] your mouth will cause, you know.

Payman Langroudi: I went to a lecture by, uh, Professor Chappell. Oh [00:41:20] yeah. At the Bupa thing.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And it was eye opening. Yeah, it really was. [00:41:25] I’m quite interested in this notion. Yeah. That, you know, when you’re in, especially in perio, there’s [00:41:30] a lot of crap that comes and goes like the companies try. And to. [00:41:35] I remember in my day there was this thing. Perio chip. Yeah.

Dipali Dalia: He’s not [00:41:40] a fan.

Payman Langroudi: Topical. Topical antibiotic. Yeah. I remember as an associate, [00:41:45] I remember I had the rep come over and say, yeah, this is brilliant. This [00:41:50] is the next thing. And by the way, you can charge an extra £60 for it or something. And there I was doing my deep [00:41:55] scaling and I was like, oh, putting that in charging. And I was happy with my life. And then Pete told [00:42:00] me, look, it’s crap. It’s not, nothing’s gonna happen here. But but my point to him was [00:42:05] that you have to you’re a specialist, right? You have to not be [00:42:10] the first person that jumps on something, but also not be the last person. And [00:42:15] how, how do you keep an open mind to whether you know the latest things [00:42:20] when you’ve seen so much rubbish come along and you [00:42:25] kind of it kind of it kind of you, you become jaded.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. I suppose understanding [00:42:30] the biology is fundamental to that really.

Payman Langroudi: Something actually makes actual sense. [00:42:35] Yeah. But this, this could make actual sense, right? Period. Yeah. But if you.

Dipali Dalia: If you stick [00:42:40] a foreign body into a pocket, how is it ever going to heal?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dipali Dalia: Do you see what I mean? It’s like it might leech out a [00:42:45] bit. And you got gingival crevicular fluid coming out all the time. It’s washing all of that stuff [00:42:50] out. That’s the whole purpose of it. So when you get down to those kind of fundamental, [00:42:55] you know, biological, it just kind of.

Payman Langroudi: Since you qualified as a periodontist, [00:43:00] what, what’s one thing that’s changed that [00:43:05] you didn’t expect?

Dipali Dalia: That I didn’t expect?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Dipali Dalia: Because in terms of [00:43:10] how do you mean?

Payman Langroudi: Well, well, I don’t know.

Dipali Dalia: Guided by therapy.

Payman Langroudi: For [00:43:15] instance.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. I mean, you know, again, you know, that’s that has [00:43:20] kind of mixed reviews, mixed approach. People love it. People don’t love it. It’s, you [00:43:25] know, the thing actually, for me that I thought would have been a game changer was all this guided bone [00:43:30] regeneration and, you know, using membranes and so on the cortex. Yeah. And all [00:43:35] of that. And, you know, biofilm by, by a guide and, um, bio-oss and, [00:43:40] you know, unfortunately or [00:43:45] certainly in my hands, I wouldn’t be using those things to try and, and grow [00:43:50] bone around people’s teeth. It has its place in implant dentistry, I believe things like [00:43:55] emdogain, you know, they’re far more I, I see better results, although, [00:44:00] you know, sometimes in my non-surgical treatments, I see infrabony defects filling in. So you [00:44:05] kind of think, is it just because I’ve just got the crap out over there that it’s improved? Or is it these stem cells that are working? [00:44:10] Um.

Payman Langroudi: I think you do the non-surgical therapy yourself.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. [00:44:15]

Payman Langroudi: Are they not hygienists who do that?

Dipali Dalia: Um, there are and some people [00:44:20] do have their hygienists do it, but I want to feel myself.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly. [00:44:25]

Dipali Dalia: Exactly what’s going on. I want to know that I’ve taken the responsibility to remove those deposits [00:44:30] and nothing is left behind. I then can get a sense of what the root morphology is [00:44:35] like, you know? Can I get into the furcation? This a furcation probe when a patient isn’t numb, can only [00:44:40] tell you so much once they’re numb and you can get right in there, you can learn a lot more about sort of [00:44:45] the anatomy of the roots and, and sort of what’s going on. So I like to do that myself. And the [00:44:50] thing is, my non-surgical treatment is effective. So if I [00:44:55] can do that and get them to a place of stability rather than, you know, [00:45:00] and I have worked with hygienists who are, you know, better than me, [00:45:05] and I’m sure, but they’re few and far between. At the end of the day, they don’t have, you know, the [00:45:10] level of training that we have, um, where they’re so brilliant in behaviour [00:45:15] change and, and, and, you know, really kind of building [00:45:20] relationships with patients so they can communicate with them effectively. And, you know, they’re so good at that. But [00:45:25] that technical getting right into a fur coat because that. To be fair, I only [00:45:30] learned how to be effective non-surgically by doing surgical and by doing surgical periodontal [00:45:35] treatment so I could see exactly what a furcation was like when the flap was lifted. When you’ve cleaned it all up, [00:45:40] what is this defect like? I’m visualising what’s going on in my head.

Payman Langroudi: That’s interesting. [00:45:45]

Dipali Dalia: You know, when I’m doing it because I’ve seen it before. Um, so [00:45:50] yeah, so I think it’s, it’s kind of incumbent. I feel it’s incumbent [00:45:55] upon me to provide that initial treatment because that could be the end of it for that patient [00:46:00] rather than someone doing 95% of it really well, but then they’re still being a little bit left, then [00:46:05] that’s a cost. It’s a morbidity issue.

Payman Langroudi: If it ain’t broke, why fix it? I guess that’s a very important [00:46:10] point, right? The referrer has trusted you to fix this problem. And you’re. [00:46:15]

Dipali Dalia: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: You know what you’re doing. I mean, I, you know, Basil Mizrahi, right? People think of him as the best dentist [00:46:20] in the whole country. Yeah. And, um, we were talking about digital. Yeah. And he was [00:46:25] saying, look, at the end of the day, I know what I can do with within. [00:46:30] Yeah yeah.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. No, exactly, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but [00:46:35] now it sounds like you, you’re happy in this job. Yeah. But [00:46:40] something was telling you to become a barrister.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So I [00:46:45] go on self-analyze to figure out what it was, because, [00:46:50] you know, anyone else would say, look, it’s a brilliant job. You’re a specialist, your patients are happy, [00:46:55] you’re Referrers are happy, you’re making good money in a practice that, you know, [00:47:00] not many of us have worked in practices where we’re actually happy, you know, clinical [00:47:05] freedom or whatever it was that made you happy, all of that stuff that you liked.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. [00:47:10]

Payman Langroudi: And yet, I mean, is there something about you that is like never happy with what you [00:47:15] have? Or was there something. Yeah, I think it was itchy to move. Yeah.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. And looking for the [00:47:20] next challenge. What can I do that is going to elevate me to being the next [00:47:25] level. Next level of myself, you know? How can I be? How [00:47:30] can I get to that point where I think, yeah, I’ve really done something now that sounds ridiculous. [00:47:35] When you think, you know, you do put yourself through specialist training. Et cetera. Et cetera. But it had been [00:47:40] so I qualified in 2008 as a specialist. And, and I started [00:47:45] then having thoughts about doing something different [00:47:50] about ten years later. And, you know, I [00:47:55] just was getting to that point where my brain was, it [00:48:00] was needing something. It was needing to be. I love learning, I’m, I’m a [00:48:05] learner holic, you know, I just love learning new things, reading about things I’ve never heard [00:48:10] of before, you know, whatever. But and this law thing was something [00:48:15] I’d always unfinished business. Yeah, exactly. That’s a really good way of putting it. [00:48:20] And so I thought first, shall I do the medical law and ethics? [00:48:25] Msc?

Payman Langroudi: You could have gone into, I don’t know. Laser perio treatment, but you could have gone [00:48:30] into implants. But you’ve gone into this total change.

Dipali Dalia: I think fundamentally [00:48:35] and I, you know, look, I love my job and [00:48:40] I, and I love.

Payman Langroudi: It.

Dipali Dalia: But but it was never my great passion. It was never my great [00:48:45] work. You know, I’ve got friends. I’ve got friends who are periodontist are so passionate about clinical work. I [00:48:50] wish I had a bit of that. You know, I did perio to get away from general practice, you [00:48:55] know, and I love it. And it served me well. And it’s and it’s my favourite speciality of, of everything you [00:49:00] can do in dentistry, but it still hadn’t fulfilled me completely [00:49:05] at that point. Fair enough. And I just thought.

Payman Langroudi: And how old were you?

Dipali Dalia: 42. 41. [00:49:10] 40. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Took some guts at 42. Yeah. [00:49:15]

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. And I just thought, well, look, let me see what this is all about. So first I thought, shall [00:49:20] I do the medical law and ethics thing? And then someone [00:49:25] else who was kind of interested in the law said to me, well, I’m thinking about doing training as a barrister. [00:49:30] And then that made me think, hmm, can I do this? So I had a word with my husband and [00:49:35] I said, look. And he was kind of scratching his head thinking, you’re a dentist. Like, why? Why do you [00:49:40] want. Why do you want to pivot away from this? And I said, I don’t, I think I just need something else. [00:49:45] And so he was like, yeah, go for it, you know, find out.

Payman Langroudi: So was it opportunism in it that you could see that [00:49:50] legal was exploding?

Dipali Dalia: Well actually it’s yeah. I mean, that’s a very good point. I did also [00:49:55] see this, you know, our profession, the litigious nature [00:50:00] of dentistry. And actually, you know, rather.

Payman Langroudi: Than it working against [00:50:05] you, you thought, let me work with it.

Dipali Dalia: But also to come from this kind of unique [00:50:10] perspective. Yeah. Um, you know, there are, there are a few, um, dentists [00:50:15] who have become barristers, but there’s only about a handful, you know, in the [00:50:20] country. There are more doctors who have done it, but it is a unique perspective. And, you [00:50:25] know, when you hear of the horror stories and people, you know, really suffering with their mental health because [00:50:30] of, you know, litigation. And I thought, well, you know, maybe I can bring something to the table [00:50:35] here as well. And so that was a driving, you know, for [00:50:40] reason as well. Um, but yeah, I thought, well, let me let’s see what [00:50:45] all of this is about. So I kind of went online, I had a look at some, you know, [00:50:50] some information about how do you train to become a barrister? Okay, you need to do the law conversion first. [00:50:55] Um, and then, you know, you’ve got to do this bar course, etc., etc.. [00:51:00] So I applied for a scholarship from, uh, one of the Inns of Court and [00:51:05] I got that and I thought, well, that’s got to be a sign then, you know, it’s um, [00:51:10] something somewhere is someone, somewhere is telling me that this is, you know, a door has opened. [00:51:15] Maybe there’s something in this. So then I did the lore conversion and [00:51:20] I did that over two years. That was over lockdown, actually, I did my first year. Um, so that was quite good because [00:51:25] I had something to do.

Payman Langroudi: How your 42 year old periodontist brain handled [00:51:30] this subject. I mean, there’s loads of reading in it.

Dipali Dalia: It was hard. [00:51:35]

Payman Langroudi: It was hard. You didn’t take to it naturally. Well you did.

Dipali Dalia: I mean, I love reading and I [00:51:40] think I think, you know, I was a bit of an all rounder at school. I’m going to sound like a bit of a but [00:51:45] I was an all rounder at school, you know, I was equally as good as English. In fact, I would probably say I was [00:51:50] probably better at English in history than I was at the sciences, but my path was kind of forged, so I went [00:51:55] with it. You know, I’m naturally inclined to that kind of thing, writing essays and so on. Um, [00:52:00] so it was the volume. What the thing that I found the hardest was retaining the information. Actually [00:52:05] in my 40s, that was I found and my brain was already full and [00:52:10] still being occupied by the previous subject. You know, I didn’t have a [00:52:15] blank canvas, you know, so it was difficult to retain the information. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:52:20] it’s a law conversion is one year.

Dipali Dalia: You can do it in one year, but I did it part time because I had to work. [00:52:25] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And then two years, then you start going barista training.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. So then I took a year [00:52:30] out because my dad was quite poorly. Um, and so we were juggling a lot with, with that. And then [00:52:35] I started the bar course in 2022. And that was [00:52:40] then. So the law conversion was online. So that was great. It was a, that’s the other [00:52:45] thing actually about the law conversion. You don’t learn as in depth the [00:52:50] subject as in depth as you do. If you’re doing a, you know, an LLB or whatever. Yeah. [00:52:55] So it is, it is.

Payman Langroudi: You were still practising to pay for all this. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah. Interesting. [00:53:00]

Dipali Dalia: Um, and then started the bar course and I was still working three days a week then. [00:53:05] Um, but that was uh, sort of weekend course where you’d go into college. So I was going up [00:53:10] to the University of Law in Bloomsbury, I love that. I just love the going back into a classroom [00:53:15] and and being taught rather than being the teacher. You know, that was that was it was [00:53:20] it was great.

Payman Langroudi: The funny thing is, it’s.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just sitting.

Dipali Dalia: There and just imbibing.

Payman Langroudi: Institutionalised. [00:53:25] There’s, there’s, there’s a comfort in it. It’s comforting where there [00:53:30] are rules and rules.

Dipali Dalia: And also I think I’m a very goal driven [00:53:35] person. Yeah. So I am the happiest when I’ve got something to achieve or I’ve [00:53:40] changed a bit now, you know, things are my brain has shifted. But at that time, you [00:53:45] know, I loved kind of having that next piece of coursework to do. Having that next piece of advocacy [00:53:50] to prepare or whatever. Um, and, and I’ve just always [00:53:55] taken studying very seriously, you know, and I am, you know, I do work [00:54:00] hard, but I, but I enjoyed it. It was, it was seven days a week though. So, you [00:54:05] know, my three days in practice, the two days I wasn’t in practice, I was studying and then weekend going [00:54:10] into college. So my poor husband really, um, really [00:54:15] was very understanding and supportive of, of, of all of this, you know, [00:54:20] so yeah. And then God, that’s so the first year split into two. [00:54:25] So I did it again over two years. You do criminal law in the first year in civil practice in the second year. [00:54:30] And I had major surgery in the, in my first year. So I deferred my exams [00:54:35] till the August of that year, where I should have sat them in there in the June. And [00:54:40] then, yeah, the second year it was all civil practice really. Like you have to basically [00:54:45] essentially learn the civil procedure rules. There’s two thick books. [00:54:50] Well, predominantly one of them. It comes in two volumes, but called The White Book. [00:54:55] And you’ve got to learn this thing inside out, back to front. And my brain was not the criminal stuff, I think [00:55:00] was just more fun, even though I never would have been a criminal practitioner had I continued with it. [00:55:05] It just it just seemed a lot more interesting. [00:55:10] And those facts stuck in my head a lot better. Civil practice can be a little bit more dry, [00:55:15] so I struggled with that a bit more. But you know, I managed to managed [00:55:20] to get through.

Payman Langroudi: Were you open to, you know, leaving, uh, negligence work and doing [00:55:25] criminal law, for instance, or.

Dipali Dalia: Um, I would have if, if I’d secured a pupillage [00:55:30] where it was part of it, then I would have happily done it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Dipali Dalia: I think work as a criminal practitioner [00:55:35] is really tough. Yeah. You know, it’s um. Yeah. And [00:55:40] especially again, at my age, I don’t think it would have been so easy for me to, [00:55:45] to really to work that hard for such little money as well, to be honest. I’ll be [00:55:50] frank, completely frank with you. You know, there there is very little money in criminal practice. And when you have a house and you have a [00:55:55] mortgage, you know, you’ve got to think about your responsibilities as well. But I wouldn’t have minded [00:56:00] doing a little bit. Um, but yeah, so it was always going to be the sort of negligence, [00:56:05] but I was I was open to any area of civil practice. So, you [00:56:10] know, inquests, uh, clinical negligence, inquests, employment, [00:56:15] even um, through my work as a county court advocate, I, you know, [00:56:20] um, handled quite a lot of property work. So landlord and tenant cases, mortgage repossession [00:56:25] cases, things like that. So it’s quite open minded.

Payman Langroudi: You know, compare [00:56:30] and contrast. Yeah. Dentistry and, and law as far as [00:56:35] both the training and the life.

Dipali Dalia: So I think so things [00:56:40] that are similar are particularly as a specialist, you know, as a barrister, you’re kind of the specialist [00:56:45] and the solicitor is the general dentist. So you work on a referral basis, [00:56:50] I suppose you have duty of care to your um your referrer [00:56:55] as well as your client or your patient. You know, you’ve got to be um, communicating [00:57:00] with both of those triangle. Right? Yeah, exactly. And in a way that everyone [00:57:05] understands, everyone is is on board. Um, you know, you’re working to their instructions. [00:57:10] You can’t just go off on a tangent and do your own thing. It’s very much similar. Um, [00:57:15] and that you are, I suppose as a specialist barristers, let’s say if you are a clinical negligence [00:57:20] specialist, you’ve got a solicitor that’s slightly more generalist. They’re looking for you to really hone [00:57:25] the points that are going to be most relevant to your, you know, to give you that really deep [00:57:30] insight into that. Yeah, exactly. Um, so there’s [00:57:35] a lot of similarities there. Um, the difference is probably come in. [00:57:40]

Payman Langroudi: Well, let’s not forget it’s a privilege, both a privilege, right?

Dipali Dalia: Oh my God. [00:57:45]

Payman Langroudi: You know, you’re.

Dipali Dalia: Huge.

Payman Langroudi: We think we think in medical, you know, we’re privileged. We are. Yeah. [00:57:50] But that’s someone’s whole life you’re talking about.

Dipali Dalia: Oh my God, you’re right. [00:57:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And it’s, it’s a it’s a responsibility. A huge responsibility goes with that privilege.

Dipali Dalia: Huge responsibility. [00:58:00] Absolutely. And and this is why I say, you know, you’ve got this duty [00:58:05] of care, you know, and it’s it’s very much a profession that is, is based [00:58:10] in being absolutely and utterly honest. You know, you cannot be [00:58:15] dishonest or hide anything very much as, as, as expected of us and [00:58:20] dentistry, you know, um, so yeah, a huge privilege. Um, [00:58:25] and, and, and very stressful because, you know, it’s similar responsibility [00:58:30] that goes with it.

Payman Langroudi: So the differences.

Dipali Dalia: The differences I think are that, [00:58:35] um, you know, in dentistry from when you start practising [00:58:40] pretty much, of course in your first few years, you know, you are, um, [00:58:45] you’re probably working in mixed NHS and private practice or whatever. Um, [00:58:50] you really have to build up your um skills and your portfolio [00:58:55] and your relationships with your solicitors to get good instructions and become sort [00:59:00] of doing the kind of work that really is then going to be paying you well. So there is [00:59:05] a time of uncertainty is when you’re very junior, I suppose, um, you [00:59:10] could be instructed on a case, you know, the night before you might be [00:59:15] given the papers the night before, you’ll be up all night. You’ll be working, you’ll be in court in the morning. [00:59:20] You know, that’s what you’ve got to do in dentistry. It’s very civilised. [00:59:25] You’re in a 9 to 5 profession. You know exactly where you are, and you don’t have to take your work home with you unless you [00:59:30] own a practice different, different matter altogether. But as an associate, you know, as [00:59:35] long as you’re proficient in doing your letters or whatever it is, you will be leaving your work at work. [00:59:40] Um, I certainly know barristers who, who will be, you [00:59:45] know, in preparing for trial for weeks and weeks and weeks beforehand [00:59:50] and you might be working from home, you might be in chambers, but you could be working from 7:00 [00:59:55] in the morning till 10:00 at night. You know, there is no end to that work. Um, [01:00:00] and then you won’t necessarily be in court all the time as a junior, you might [01:00:05] be doing a bit more, um, sort of more simple cases. So you’re in court a [01:00:10] lot more, but as you become more senior, you know, you’ll be sort of doing, like I say, bigger trials and [01:00:15] more prep.

Payman Langroudi: And maybe I’m not, I’m not familiar with it. Yeah. But the, the law [01:00:20] side sounds more stressful than the Dental. What would you which [01:00:25] would you say is a more stressful job?

Dipali Dalia: I think it’s that it’s that it’s.

Dipali Dalia: The immediacy [01:00:30] of the stress and it’s the consistency of the stress. So every [01:00:35] if you’re working in practice five days a week, from the minute you sit down to the minute you get [01:00:40] up.

Payman Langroudi: That relentless.

Dipali Dalia: You’re relentlessly managing one on one. [01:00:45] A person who is nervous, who doesn’t want to be there, [01:00:50] who thinks you’re a charlatan and is trying to, you know, you’re managing. Not only that, your [01:00:55] team, your nurse, your time, that it’s so immediate that stress.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [01:01:00] a barrister. You’re more of a lone wolf.

Dipali Dalia: As a barrister. You’re very much a lone wolf. Yeah, [01:01:05] yeah. And and that there will.

Payman Langroudi: Have pluses and minuses. Right?

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, [01:01:10] absolutely.

Dipali Dalia: And I guess, you know, as you again, as you become, you might as a junior, [01:01:15] um, be led by a senior barrister or vice versa. [01:01:20] But a lot of the work you do on your own, it can be quite an isolating profession. Um, [01:01:25] but you know, I think that with the law, um [01:01:30] the, what’s the word I’m thinking of the implications of [01:01:35] what you do can be, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Severe.

Dipali Dalia: Quite severe. Exactly. I mean, the implications [01:01:40] of what we do can be quite severe as well. Um, but you’re [01:01:45] not expecting to come up against those problems on a daily basis.

Payman Langroudi: If you haven’t been involved [01:01:50] in the law. Luckily I’ve only once been involved with it, but if you haven’t been involved before [01:01:55] that time, you kind of as a as a man in the street, you kind of think, yeah, [01:02:00] it’s like the truth will out or something.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Whereas once [01:02:05] you get involved, you realise the quality of your lawyer. Like it’s [01:02:10] it’s everything. Yeah. Honestly, and the language they’re talking, it’s, it’s, [01:02:15] they’re talking their own language and what you say or do something that your lawyers. [01:02:20]

Dipali Dalia: It’s how the evidence comes out. Yeah. Yeah. Like I did a couple of, um, small [01:02:25] claims trials, um, as part of the advocacy work. And, you [01:02:30] know, actually when you listen to your client’s version of events, [01:02:35] they seem quite plausible. But when the judge is looking at the paper [01:02:40] evidence and then how your client is giving evidence when questioned by the other side, it’s [01:02:45] what that judge hears on the day. And who persuades that judge on the day that [01:02:50] is going to, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Swing it one way or.

Dipali Dalia: The other. Exactly. Exactly. And that is [01:02:55] down to how good your witness is, how good your solicitor’s preparation has been, [01:03:00] and how good your questioning has been to elicit the another thing.

Payman Langroudi: Another thing you’re [01:03:05] not properly prepared for as a civilian, let’s call it, is you think there’s been a grievance? [01:03:10] Right. You’re not sure? You think there has been a grievance? You can find [01:03:15] a lawyer and you say, I’ve got this grievance. And the lawyer just basically says, yeah, yeah, I can see that. [01:03:20] I can see what you’re saying because, you know, there is a there’s an argument that says you’ve got a grievance. Yeah. As a civilian, [01:03:25] you think that’s it? That’s it. I’ve got a grievance. And the lawyer said I have as well. And you think that’s that’s [01:03:30] the end of it. That’s the very beginning. Yeah.

Dipali Dalia: No, exactly, exactly. And then [01:03:35] it’s the nitty gritty about the law and the legal precedents there might have been before, or, you know, [01:03:40] what is actually illegal or legal or, you know, what is. So yeah, it’s [01:03:45] they say the law is an ass. And, and, you know, there have been a number of times [01:03:50] where I thought, how can this be? But, you know.

Payman Langroudi: It’s one of those professions you can’t [01:03:55] live with and you can’t live with that bit like dentists, I guess.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: What I found, I mean, some of the cleverest people I’ve ever [01:04:00] come across are lawyers. Mhm. Oh, definitely. Um, and the difference [01:04:05] in a good and a great lawyer is what I think.

Dipali Dalia: Well, as [01:04:10] a barrister, I think the difference between a good and a great barrister is how you can think on your feet in that moment. [01:04:15] You know, when a being able to control what your witness is bringing [01:04:20] out, not allowing them to go off on a tangent, whereas you’re you’re so well prepared [01:04:25] that you know exactly what your story is, exactly what your facts are, and [01:04:30] you’re only asking questions that you know the answer to. But then if you’re challenged that you [01:04:35] can think on your feet immediately to circumvent that challenge. And [01:04:40] some people just have it’s about being logical, knowing, [01:04:45] preparation, knowing what you’re talking about being logical, but also [01:04:50] being very clear and confident in your delivery as to, you [01:04:55] know, make someone think, oh yeah, you know what? Actually, I kind of get [01:05:00] your point.

Payman Langroudi: And that delivery that is really reliant on like an amazing grasp of English, [01:05:05] right? That the language, the right word at the right time.

Dipali Dalia: Yes. [01:05:10] It requires such precision. Yeah, it really does. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, like you don’t [01:05:15] know. You okay? You were good at English and when you were 16 or something, but you don’t know. You don’t know [01:05:20] if you’ve got what you have. Do they teach able to how how do they teach that. [01:05:25]

Dipali Dalia: Have advocacy classes? Yeah. So, um, so you’re [01:05:30] basically, you know, you’re taught how to cross-examine, do an examination [01:05:35] in chief, which is to, um, basically question your own client, bring [01:05:40] out their story, how to do a cross-examination. So that’s to get your own story [01:05:45] across in a way that really doesn’t matter what your. So you’re asking [01:05:50] closed questions, not open questions. Um, kind of making applications [01:05:55] to a judge. So how to use case law or statutes in order to, um, [01:06:00] bolster your argument that you’re trying to make to the judge for them to, to grant you a certain application [01:06:05] of some sort. But yeah, so that’s part and parcel of, of the training and, and it is sort [01:06:10] of something you will continue to do all the way through your career as a barrister. [01:06:15] Um, there’s advocacy training that goes on all the time. But [01:06:20] what I definitely have learned witnessing because I’ve done so much work experience as well, sort [01:06:25] of watching barristers, is that the most, the people [01:06:30] who speak in the most simple, concise way and don’t use flowery language [01:06:35] and don’t try and act all clever, are the ones that tend to be the [01:06:40] most persuasive because they’re the easiest to understand. They’re just getting their point across [01:06:45] without, you know, and judges hate it. Judges hate it when there’s all this, you [01:06:50] know. Too many words. They don’t like too many [01:06:55] words. They’re like, just get to the point because they don’t know the case. They will have flicked through [01:07:00] the case papers. They’ll get a gist of it. They’ll go, they’re relying on you as the [01:07:05] barrister to simplify it and give them the bare facts so they can make a judgement. [01:07:10] You’re the mouthpiece for your client, but you’re also assisting the court.

Payman Langroudi: What about the tactics? [01:07:15] Because one barrister will say, let’s go this way, and another barrister [01:07:20] will say, let’s go that way.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, I mean, I suppose that’s case dependent, isn’t it. You know, it [01:07:25] depends.

Payman Langroudi: But are there like, is there like, is there a barrister that’s like more risk [01:07:30] averse? And one that’s more like, you know, is that what’s the difference between different barristers? [01:07:35]

Dipali Dalia: Like, yeah, I mean, I don’t, I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, the, the solicitors, the ones who know the answer to [01:07:40] this, like, how does the solicitor typical virus. How does he know.

Dipali Dalia: Who to pick? I mean, like, how does a [01:07:45] general dentist pick a specialist? It’s like, you know, experience. You know, you’ve seen them, you’ve seen, [01:07:50] you’ve either seen.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve used them before.

Dipali Dalia: You’ve used them before you, you know, or [01:07:55] the, or the client comes back to you and says, oh my God, they’re amazing. They were so good. You know, I was so happy [01:08:00] to have them in my in my corner, you know, all of these things are gonna persuade a solicitor [01:08:05] to I don’t I think it will. I think every barrister is going to be like every dentist. [01:08:10] It’s, you know, the personality, there’s so many permutations. There are so many [01:08:15] factors that will influence how a barrister is on that day. It might be that that [01:08:20] that judge they’ve been in front of before. They know how to handle that judge in a particular [01:08:25] way. They know that that judge isn’t going to like X, Y, or Z. So they’re going to behave in this way. [01:08:30] Um, yeah, I think I don’t think it’s as clear cut as. [01:08:35]

Payman Langroudi: And then the client can get very emotional, right? With it goes the right or wrong way? [01:08:40]

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How did you manage that? Is that is that similar to a dentist?

Dipali Dalia: I mean, I guess, yeah, [01:08:45] it’s I suppose the difference is that when you’re a barrister, [01:08:50] the outcome depends on the judge’s decision. And all [01:08:55] you can do is your best for the client. And all you can reassure your client of is, [01:09:00] I will do my absolute best for you, you know, whatever the outcome. And [01:09:05] you’ve got to be honest. You’ve got to say, look, these are the pros of your case. These are the cons of your case. [01:09:10] You know, it is likely that these things are going to work [01:09:15] out in your favour, but this might not. And so you’ve got you’ve got to tell them the strengths and weaknesses of [01:09:20] their own case. You’ve got to kind of prepare them. But the decision [01:09:25] rests with the judge. As a dentist, it’s all about what skills [01:09:30] are in your hands. It’s all about your decision making. It’s about how you perform that skill or that [01:09:35] task. So it’s all about you.

Payman Langroudi: So you’ve got the the biology, [01:09:40] the the the the the patient response.

Dipali Dalia: Well exactly. Well, yes. Absolutely. Of course. Are [01:09:45] they using their tips.

Payman Langroudi: Or not as you reminded me.

Dipali Dalia: But but it is I mean, I think that’s. Yeah. [01:09:50] It’s yeah. I mean, I think if you prepare your your [01:09:55] client and explain why their case, you [01:10:00] know, well, they more likely to win or not, then at least they’ll be prepared. Like if you [01:10:05] consent a patient for, you know, this tooth.

Payman Langroudi: Has.

Dipali Dalia: Got 70% bone [01:10:10] loss and a furcation involvement. You know, I’m not really going to be able to tell you what the prognosis is until [01:10:15] I’ve treated this tooth, but I’ll do my very best. Be prepared. You know, all [01:10:20] that peri implantitis thing we were talking about, be prepared. This may not work out, but we can give it a go. [01:10:25]

Payman Langroudi: So let’s now go on to, I guess, the the painful reality [01:10:30] that the grass isn’t always greener on the other side. I mean, yeah, You [01:10:35] massive time, money risk, investment [01:10:40] in this. Let’s just say this. If you had have gotten the pupillage. [01:10:45] Yeah. Do you think you would have carried on or do you think overall you decided dentistry [01:10:50] is better than than.

Dipali Dalia: I think if I had got pupillage, that would have felt like [01:10:55] a big step towards continuing.

Payman Langroudi: But you kind of ran out of [01:11:00] gas like mentally when you didn’t get.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. I think well, no. Well, I think like I say, it was after I [01:11:05] lost my dad, that’s when everything changed. You know, I was ready to give it another round of applications, [01:11:10] you know, and like I say, I was working in the county courts to get some advocacy [01:11:15] experience. All of these things. I was really doing everything I possibly could to make [01:11:20] this thing work for me. And then I [01:11:25] lost my dad, and I just thought it was the realisation [01:11:30] that this man had worked so hard all his life, [01:11:35] and he had done so much for the family. I mean, he came to England [01:11:40] when he was 25. He had the weight of the [01:11:45] expectations of his family. You know, one of his brothers businesses [01:11:50] had not done well. Another brother had some problems in his his work. [01:11:55] So everything was like on him. And, you know.

Payman Langroudi: He was it.

Dipali Dalia: Was.

Payman Langroudi: That he turned up.

Dipali Dalia: 68, [01:12:00] 69, sorry. February 69th.

Payman Langroudi: Different Britain as well. Right. Totally different. [01:12:05]

Dipali Dalia: My God. And what they endured. My mum was 21, 22 when she came to this country [01:12:10] and as children they worked so hard, so hard to, you [01:12:15] know, give people back home a life. But to bring up, give us every [01:12:20] opportunity. I mean, they’re just incredible. And then, you [01:12:25] know, he had a heart attack at 48. Had a quadruple bypass Then [01:12:30] slow down after that working and retired [01:12:35] at about 6667 and then got dementia. Not that we realised [01:12:40] until about, you know, sort of seven, eight years later. And [01:12:45] don’t get me wrong, they had a great life and they travelled and they, you know, really [01:12:50] enjoyed themselves as well. But he worked and worked and worked [01:12:55] and then didn’t feed his soul because then he didn’t know what to do [01:13:00] after he retired. He loved cricket, as every Indian dad does, but [01:13:05] he didn’t really have because he’d never given himself the time to find hobbies. Or, you [01:13:10] know, what shall I do in my next chapter? I think it was a bit lost.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:13:15] think anytime anyone passes away, it’s almost like [01:13:20] a lens zooms in on you and anyone, let alone your [01:13:25] dad.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. And so then I just suddenly had this flip, and I thought, why [01:13:30] am I doing am. Who am I trying to impress by doing all of that? Like, [01:13:35] what is the point? What is the point in me? Yeah, it could be great. It could be a wonderful [01:13:40] career, but at what cost? 60 hour weeks when I’m just about to turn 50, not [01:13:45] spending any time with my mum. Junior lawyers as a junior lawyer would do at [01:13:50] least you know, my mum’s 79. I want to make her [01:13:55] life easy. I want to be there for every hospital appointment. I want to, you [01:14:00] know, take her out, go on holiday with her. You know, we’re going to have a finite period [01:14:05] of time with her. Do I want to waste this precious time that I have.

Payman Langroudi: Particularly seeing dementia [01:14:10] in your dad, right. Because it’s not you know, someone said to me once I was much younger. I didn’t [01:14:15] understand what he meant. He said, talk to your parents while you still can. This is a big thing. I thought [01:14:20] he meant before they pass away. But even if it’s not diagnosed as dementia, [01:14:25] as they get older, they become harder and harder to talk to.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:14:30] so you know your points, right about your mum, you know, while you still can be there, it makes [01:14:35] sense. But it’s a really interesting thing that these itches that we [01:14:40] want to scratch the things we want to achieve. Yeah. The, I [01:14:45] guess what you’re saying is in the end, you’re kind of become aware that you’re not going to be around [01:14:50] forever.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. At this age we do. Yeah. Why? We just had this event at [01:14:55] Ministry of Sound. I call it crisis.

Dipali Dalia: I like.

Payman Langroudi: That.

Dipali Dalia: That’s [01:15:00] very good.

Payman Langroudi: Before I die. But but suddenly dying becomes a [01:15:05] question in your head. Yeah. Um, and then, you know, the, what you were saying [01:15:10] before about sort of almost being defined by the next goal.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. [01:15:15] Yeah. So that’s now I think it.

Payman Langroudi: Must be quite empowering now not to have.

Dipali Dalia: That. [01:15:20] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And actually ladder to climb. The whole time.

Dipali Dalia: I felt I felt very empowered making the decision [01:15:25] to stop. And actually, if you ask me, what is the thing that I’m most proud of [01:15:30] in my life is that.

Payman Langroudi: I love that.

Dipali Dalia: It’s that is knowing what is [01:15:35] serving me, knowing what and not caring. You [01:15:40] know, I don’t care if people what people think or what that happens to you naturally [01:15:45] anyway, when you turn 4045. But really.

Payman Langroudi: Even yourself. Even yourself. Yeah, like [01:15:50] there’s so many ways of looking at a thing. Yeah, you can be reductive about it and say, I [01:15:55] wasted time and money.

Dipali Dalia: No.

Payman Langroudi: Or you could, you can, you can say, you know, I looked into something. It’s a hobby, [01:16:00] you know, it’s I learned something. Yeah. You know, they’re both this exact same situation. Exactly. [01:16:05] But looked at from two different perspectives.

Dipali Dalia: But what’s really interesting is, is, you know, as as it [01:16:10] does happen to, to a lot of people is, you know, after dad died, I kind of started reading a bit [01:16:15] more Hindu philosophy and sort of and one of the big things is it’s about [01:16:20] the action, not the outcome. Don’t give attachment to the outcome of the action. Because [01:16:25] if you attach, if you are worrying too much about what the end point is [01:16:30] going to be, you’re not really being mindful about what you’re doing. It’s [01:16:35] the journey, you know, and that really resonated with me that [01:16:40] I could be worrying all the time what’s going to happen if, you know, um, I [01:16:45] don’t know if I don’t practice the law or what will people think? [01:16:50] Or oh, if I can only work two days a week in this practice, what’s going to happen? You know, just keep [01:16:55] going. Just do it. And also, nothing should frighten you from taking that step. You [01:17:00] know, if you do have it could be you want to be a [01:17:05] singer, right? And you’re in your 50s and you think, oh, I’ve never sung, go and have a singing class. [01:17:10] Go and sing with a choir. Nothing should stop you from feeling [01:17:15] the joy, from doing the thing that you want to do.

Payman Langroudi: It’s, you know that you. [01:17:20] We convince ourselves, right, of of the boundaries of our our [01:17:25] life and we blame those things. Sometimes I made some crappy excuses [01:17:30] for why I didn’t do whatever it was, whether it was like, why didn’t, why didn’t, why [01:17:35] didn’t enlighten raise £5 million in the first five years of losing 600,000? [01:17:40] Yeah, because I made it up in my own head. I didn’t want someone else controlling [01:17:45] my company or whatever. We make excuses. Yeah, but but what the point you’re making is [01:17:50] that we have agency. And as I say, [01:17:55] as we get older, we realise now’s the time to act.

Dipali Dalia: But but part of that age, part [01:18:00] of that agency is saying, I don’t want that. I don’t want that person in my.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever it is, whatever [01:18:05] it is.

Dipali Dalia: Or I don’t. Yeah, I don’t want this now. And it’s, you know, and it’s okay because, and I, [01:18:10] I’ve really become a firm believer in everything will work out. Everything [01:18:15] happens for a reason. I.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t believe [01:18:20] a lot of religious people are in that mode.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. I’m not, I’m not. I wouldn’t say I believe in [01:18:25] God, but I, but I do believe then. Yeah. Because I think, yeah, kismet, [01:18:30] destiny, karma, you know, that there’s a reason for why [01:18:35] we’re here and why we do what we do. Um, that’s a whole, that’s going to be a whole other [01:18:40] conversation, you know, and I’m, I’m very in the very early throes of learning.

Payman Langroudi: Things happen for [01:18:45] a reason.

Dipali Dalia: Things happen for a reason. And, you know, the bad things that happen for you are it’s a, it’s [01:18:50] testing who you are and it’s testing your, um, your [01:18:55] mettle, you know, your resilience. And you will learn if you think back to every crappy [01:19:00] thing that’s happened to you. Yeah. And I would go, I would say I wouldn’t change [01:19:05] anything that happened in my life because I know that I’ve grown from the negative thing that has held [01:19:10] the bad thing. That’s bad in inverted commas. Thing has happened to me and things happen [01:19:15] as a pivot, right? So when I qualified and I applied for [01:19:20] VAT, I didn’t get VAT. I was in the top three of my year qualifying from [01:19:25] dental school. There are three of us that had or two of us that had three distinction vivas. Right? [01:19:30] So let’s say I was number two. I didn’t get VAT right. So [01:19:35] that academic excellence meant nothing. So then a very good friend of mine, David [01:19:40] to Sarah.

Payman Langroudi: I know David.

Dipali Dalia: You know David, he’s such a sweetheart. So he was working [01:19:45] in a practice in Surbiton with a guy called Arif Lalani. And Arif ran the um [01:19:50] Kingston um scheme scheme. And David [01:19:55] very kindly asked Arif, look, do you think we can make. There was this new scheme that was starting called the Newham [01:20:00] Scheme. Right. So they got me.

Payman Langroudi: Otherwise known as the Narm scheme. Yeah. I’m [01:20:05] joking, I’m joking, I’m joking. My, my brother’s a doctor. He did a stint in Newham. [01:20:10]

Dipali Dalia: Oh I see, oh.

Payman Langroudi: They used to call that.

Dipali Dalia: Like and and. Yeah. And [01:20:15] so, so I, you know, and I got through that and then, you [01:20:20] know, I did did this house job and then I wanted a job at guys in pathology [01:20:25] and oral pathology. I didn’t get that. So I ended up [01:20:30] doing the oral surgery job from the oral surgery job came my perio thing, the [01:20:35] early doors of my conversion to law. I got a scholarship from Inner [01:20:40] Temple, I got a scholarship from the University of Law. I was getting, you know, mini pupillages, [01:20:45] um, which you have to apply for. And then they shortlist you and they select every door [01:20:50] was opening until they closed until that door closed. And then I pivoted. [01:20:55] I just feel that it was all supposed to happen in that way too.

Payman Langroudi: For [01:21:00] like, you, you, you’re, you’re so used to succeeding [01:21:05] that you hadn’t ever failed properly. Like, I don’t know, [01:21:10] I was never top of anything. Yeah. I wasn’t top of my school class. I was nowhere near [01:21:15] top of the Dental class. I failed left, right and centre, whereas someone who’s like, I [01:21:20] worry for my son, you know, he’s always done very, very well. There’s going to come a moment.

Dipali Dalia: I know there will. [01:21:25] But I think I think you almost have to remind kids that are going [01:21:30] through that and which something I learned probably later on is that you [01:21:35] have to just take it’s going to come like that failure is going to come, but it’s not a [01:21:40] failure. It’s a redirect. Yeah. You know, and that there [01:21:45] are certain things that are in your control, but there are certain things that aren’t in your control. [01:21:50] And if someone if in that pupillage interview, you just don’t come across [01:21:55] as being someone that they are convinced by, even though you are qualified [01:22:00] for nearly 25 years as a dentist and you are a very responsible, [01:22:05] effective practitioner, you know, they’re just not going to be convinced [01:22:10] by you. But that’s okay because something else will happen and something else will come. It is [01:22:15] again, it’s about this. All this. Think about the action and not the outcome kind of thing, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Do you think you’re [01:22:20] a happier periodontist now than you were before?

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. Because I think I don’t feel like there’s [01:22:25] something else out there waiting for me. Mhm. I, you know, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve opened [01:22:30] that door. I’ve had a look and I’ve gone. Oh, actually, look at this job. [01:22:35] I have been here for so long. My team is amazing. My patients I’ve since [01:22:40] I’ve been off, when I’ve hurt my leg, I’ve had so many patients who’ve said, oh, no, we’ll wait for Deepali to [01:22:45] come back. We don’t really want to see anybody else for a periodontal review. You know, it’s not [01:22:50] anything grand, but that is so affirming. And [01:22:55] and actually, you know, I, I have been very effective and I’ve realised [01:23:00] I think for a long time I took for granted the impact that [01:23:05] I had on my patients. You know, you might do an anthill. [01:23:10] You might whiten someone’s teeth. They go, oh yeah, that’s great. They go away and [01:23:15] they love it and they’re smiling in photos and they’re, you know, feeling confident. [01:23:20] And it might, they might go on a date and meet someone. You don’t know the ripple effect of [01:23:25] that little thing that you’ve done.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve been amazed at Invisalign. My, my daughter’s [01:23:30] had my, my wife’s had my son’s had not Invisalign, but ortho. But the effect it has on them. [01:23:35] Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. And it’s so weird, I should know.

Dipali Dalia: And there are some things that you wouldn’t [01:23:40] even notice that someone’s got misalignment of their teeth, but they will focus on that thing.

Payman Langroudi: No, I’m [01:23:45] saying it’s only by living in the same house as them that have actually come to fully appreciate how good straight [01:23:50] teeth are for people. Yeah, exactly. So we do forget, especially when it’s it’s our day to day, we [01:23:55] forget.

Dipali Dalia: The thing.

Payman Langroudi: And you’ve kind of now come back and been reminded of.

Dipali Dalia: This.

Payman Langroudi: Important [01:24:00] things, right.

Dipali Dalia: And that even as a barrister, if I’d started practising now [01:24:05] or next year, I’d have really to be being [01:24:10] impactful for a person who I’m representing. I’d [01:24:15] have to be five, six, seven years down the line before I was that, you know, I can do it now. Mhm. [01:24:20] You know, and it is it’s, you know, we get paid well for what we [01:24:25] do. We can control our hours. I can do, you know, two days a week, three days [01:24:30] a week. I can do whatever I want. I can make it fit around me. What’s [01:24:35] not what’s not to love? What’s not to love? And it’s. Yeah. No, [01:24:40] it’s it’s a very interesting journey that I’ve had. And if anyone [01:24:45] is just thinking that they want to try something different, my [01:24:50] advice to them is just go try it. It just if it doesn’t work out, it’s fine.

Payman Langroudi: We [01:24:55] define ourselves. We, we define ourselves as dentists. And I think that our skills aren’t transferable, but [01:25:00] they definitely are.

Dipali Dalia: Oh, definitely.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I know, I know a guy. He was a doctor and [01:25:05] he became a barrister. Oh, yeah. And his mum was a doctor. His dad was a barrister and [01:25:10] he kind of switched allegiance. Did both. Yeah. And he’s now he’s still a barrister. [01:25:15] He’s. Yeah. He’s. Yeah he’s good. I was I was talking to him about impact. I was saying do you think you’ve had [01:25:20] more impact in law. And he he did family law.

Dipali Dalia: Right. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: He didn’t [01:25:25] want to do family law. He wanted to do human rights or something.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s the same thing they were talking about. Yeah yeah yeah. [01:25:30] But it’s the same thing. Yeah. Getting a pupil is just such a big deal. Um and he said yeah, I think I’ve [01:25:35] had more impact as a barrister.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. How long was he a doctor for though.

Payman Langroudi: Five. [01:25:40] Six years. Not long.

Dipali Dalia: That’s the thing though isn’t it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Dipali Dalia: It’s the longevity of the time that you’ve [01:25:45] had in that speciality. I mean you I’ve got I’ve got a friend who was a consultant neurosurgeon [01:25:50] and now she’s a barrister. Yeah. I mean, she.

Payman Langroudi: Stopped practising.

Dipali Dalia: For about [01:25:55] five years I think. Um but yeah, so she, she [01:26:00] became disillusioned with, with, you know, medicine or whatever and then tried. But one [01:26:05] might argue that as a consultant neurosurgeon, you know, there are a paediatric consultant [01:26:10] neurosurgeon. Goodness me. You know, so it’s but that didn’t it just wasn’t suiting [01:26:15] her.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me, how do you think differently to the rest of us about, um, our friends, [01:26:20] the dental law partnership?

Dipali Dalia: No.

Payman Langroudi: Do [01:26:25] you not look at them from the legal side, like.

Dipali Dalia: No, it’s about.

Payman Langroudi: It’s still [01:26:30] ambulance chasing is the lowest form of law, right?

Dipali Dalia: Every [01:26:35] patient should have recourse, right, if they’re treated negligently. That’s [01:26:40] what that’s what it’s all there for. And, you know, I’ve seen patients come into my practice [01:26:45] who have been seeing the same general dentist for 20 years and have undiagnosed [01:26:50] raging perio. They’re about to lose their teeth and they’re in their early [01:26:55] 50s. It’s not right. There should be recourse, right? There’s a place for all of that. But [01:27:00] the point at which it becomes a fishing expedition. Look, [01:27:05] I don’t know enough about them, but from what I hear, you know, or any any company, when [01:27:10] it becomes a fishing expedition and you start going through all the notes and you start kind of like no [01:27:15] one is perfect, everyone is fallible. Why is there this belief that dentists should [01:27:20] be absolutely perfect at everything, yet everyone else gets a break, you know? Yeah. [01:27:25] And, and where it becomes destructive and where it has this knock on effect, [01:27:30] right. So dental law partnership comes after you. You call your indemnity for advice. [01:27:35] Indemnity gives you some advice. There is a belief amongst some people that [01:27:40] then your premiums go up, you know, and this is all, then they won’t. Then they ask you [01:27:45] to settle. They won’t defend you. Right. Then the patient gets their case settled. So they think, [01:27:50] ah, okay, I’ll tell my friend. Friend goes, this, this whole shift [01:27:55] in the whole dynamic because of this pursuit of.

Payman Langroudi: You know, they [01:28:00] buy all the dental cases.

Dipali Dalia: Do they?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Dipali Dalia: I didn’t know that. [01:28:05]

Payman Langroudi: Because they, they figured out how to make money out of dental cases. Right. They if, [01:28:10] if, if a negligence case comes into any lawyer, they know they can sell it to dental law partnership. [01:28:15]

Dipali Dalia: I had no idea. There you.

Payman Langroudi: Go.

Dipali Dalia: It just shows how disengaged I am with all of that. [01:28:20] But, um, yeah, I mean, you know what? This is ultimately at the heart [01:28:25] of what we do is caring for people. And if you can find a way to vilify [01:28:30] people, for caring for people, there’s got to be a bit of an issue in that, hasn’t [01:28:35] there? Just, you know, from a moral viewpoint.

Payman Langroudi: I just thought maybe because you’ve been on the other side, maybe, [01:28:40] you.

Dipali Dalia: Know, I mean, like I say where, where it is, where someone has behaved [01:28:45] in a negligent manner, they should be held to account.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, absolutely.

Dipali Dalia: But you can’t [01:28:50] chase just for your business, you know. Not that I’m saying that they are, but if that is part [01:28:55] of their model, that it’s that they’re doing well financially because they’re maybe [01:29:00] doing a bit more or chasing, you know, these cases a bit more and they know we no win, no [01:29:05] fee thing is, you know, I don’t know. It just doesn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Unfortunately, [01:29:10] we come to the end of our.

Dipali Dalia: Time while with me, but oh thank you.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve really enjoyed it.

Dipali Dalia: I [01:29:15] really enjoyed it too. Yeah. How long has it been?

Payman Langroudi: Hour and a half.

Dipali Dalia: Oh, [01:29:20] wow.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Gosh.

Dipali Dalia: It’s been really good.

Payman Langroudi: But the final questions [01:29:25] that we always ask everyone.

Dipali Dalia: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a fancy dinner party.

Dipali Dalia: Oh my goodness. Now [01:29:30] I have been thinking about.

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive.

Dipali Dalia: I have been thinking about this and I [01:29:35] actually was asked as a pupillage, um, the, uh, question, a paper question. [01:29:40]

Payman Langroudi: Same question.

Dipali Dalia: Same question.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Dipali Dalia: And, and I was looking back at my answers and I [01:29:45] was thinking, God, this is so contrived. I put Gandhi, Banksy, um, [01:29:50] Malala. I was like, oh, for God’s sake, I wouldn’t have given myself an interview either. Um, [01:29:55] who would I?

Payman Langroudi: Banksy is a good one.

Dipali Dalia: Banksy is a good one. Well, yeah. Um, [01:30:00] I think, oh, there’s, uh, Elizabeth Holmes.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah. Just [01:30:05] to find out.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like, what was she thinking?

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. What what was going on in that brain [01:30:10] of hers? I think that would be really interesting. Yeah, yeah, that was mad [01:30:15] like how you can and where that insane self-belief [01:30:20] and confidence came from [01:30:25] to convince presidents, you know, that what she was [01:30:30] doing was this groundbreaking thing when there was nothing to back it up.

Payman Langroudi: It becomes like a pyramid scheme in the end, you know, [01:30:35] you have to keep on going. Yeah.

Dipali Dalia: This is it, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting guess though.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. So [01:30:40] she she’s she’s an interesting one. Um, I think one of my ancestors [01:30:45] on like a maternal ancestor, great grandmother, great great grandmother. [01:30:50]

Payman Langroudi: Someone you haven’t.

Dipali Dalia: Met, someone I haven’t met because, You know, certainly [01:30:55] on my dad’s side of the family, like all the cousins were made to learn every single [01:31:00] grandfather, great grandfather and so on and so on. We haven’t got a clue what any of the grandmothers [01:31:05] names are. Don’t know what their experiences were. Nothing. So that that’s. [01:31:10]

Payman Langroudi: An interesting thing. They say it’s less than 0.1% of [01:31:15] the population know the name of their grandmother’s grandmother.

Dipali Dalia: Really?

Payman Langroudi: No [01:31:20] way. It’s not that far away. You know your grandmother’s grandmother? Yeah. That’s crazy. [01:31:25]

Dipali Dalia: Yeah, well, yeah, we’ve got about, I think on my on my dad’s side, I think it was about 8 or 9 generations [01:31:30] of the of the fathers and a third person. Oh, I don’t know, someone mad [01:31:35] like Mozart or Caravaggio who was very, very amazing at what they did, [01:31:40] you know, real geniuses, but absolute lunatics. And Caravaggio [01:31:45] was a murdering, you know, absolute nightmare, [01:31:50] but painted these divine pictures and same with Mozart. Alcoholic. [01:31:55] That’s how he died, isn’t it? Young because of his alcoholism. Yeah. So someone who [01:32:00] is such a kind of dichotomy.

Payman Langroudi: I love this. Yeah, I love this. [01:32:05] And I’ll let you have that as well.

Dipali Dalia: Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll let you have that. I could tell from looking at your [01:32:10] your profile how close you were to him.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. He, um, I think I, I feel [01:32:15] like I’ve really I am who I am because of, of him and [01:32:20] that my I think my empathy and ability [01:32:25] to manage people has come from watching him manage his patients in [01:32:30] his pharmacy kind to a fault. So kind, but [01:32:35] wouldn’t take crap from anybody. He was.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a difficult balance, isn’t it? Very difficult.

Dipali Dalia: Balance. [01:32:40] Very. You know, he had such a level of self respect and he would [01:32:45] put you in your place in a really calm way. But you wouldn’t You wouldn’t [01:32:50] mess with him again, you know, and he wouldn’t take you and he would have his lines. You cannot [01:32:55] you cannot overstep that line with him. But he will be. And [01:33:00] he would always see things from other people’s point of view, even if people were a bit. You know, he [01:33:05] would, like I say, make his point. But then privately he would say, [01:33:10] yeah, but there’s a reason they’re behaving that way, you know? Think about take take a few steps [01:33:15] in their shoes and you might understand is really is fundamental, fundamental [01:33:20] to everything that we do, especially in our professions. When that person walks through the door [01:33:25] and the first comment is, I don’t want to pay for your holidays. Why [01:33:30] is that person feeling so, you know, threatened? Usually it’s it is [01:33:35] being nervous and you just want to kind of have a go back, right?

Payman Langroudi: Even [01:33:40] even that even even I think like, I don’t know, I’m not I’m no fan of Nigel Farage. [01:33:45] Yeah, yeah. But it’s very, very, very important for me to understand [01:33:50] why he has so many fans.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I understand.

Dipali Dalia: Absolutely. [01:33:55]

Payman Langroudi: It’s very it’s very easy to say, oh, I think he’s a racist or whatever. Whatever you think he is. I [01:34:00] don’t actually like him. He’s funny. Yeah. But but in which in whichever [01:34:05] area, whichever area you think you’re on one side or the other, very important to understand [01:34:10] the other.

Dipali Dalia: Understand the other point. Otherwise you won’t have the conviction of your own point because [01:34:15] you’re just brainwashed then, aren’t you? And you know, and there are times where I’ve been very [01:34:20] staunchly on one side of an argument, but then, you know, I’ve read a bit more and I’ve thought, well, at least [01:34:25] I can see that.

Payman Langroudi: It’s good to be. I’m happy for you to be staunchly on one side, as long as you understand what the other side [01:34:30] is.

Dipali Dalia: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: You know.

Dipali Dalia: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: That’s that’s an important thing I find in our [01:34:35] profession sometimes, you know. You were saying it’s more collegiate in law.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: With us, based [01:34:40] on patient’s best interests, we can be bloody nasty to each other.

Dipali Dalia: But I. But I think some [01:34:45] of the patient’s.

Dipali Dalia: Best interests is, is all of us looking after [01:34:50] each other?

Payman Langroudi: No, no. But based on I’m talking for the patient. Yeah. I can say the worst [01:34:55] thing in the world to you. Yeah. Under the cover of. I’m doing this for the patient.

Dipali Dalia: Oh, I see what you mean. [01:35:00] Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Under the guise.

Payman Langroudi: Under the guise of. Under the protection.

Dipali Dalia: I’ve got the [01:35:05] patient’s best interest at heart, but actually, I’m just trying to.

Payman Langroudi: Actually, you’re a charlatan. Yeah. [01:35:10]

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. No, exactly. Exactly. It’s. Yeah. So?

Payman Langroudi: So it wasn’t so bad in law.

Dipali Dalia: Oh, [01:35:15] I’m sure there are people. But from my experience, like any. Even if.

Payman Langroudi: I’m [01:35:20] collaborative.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. Or any. I remember once going to see some, some pre-trial [01:35:25] preparation hearing of a criminal case and it was a murder case or something. And I was just [01:35:30] sitting there like, you know, and I saw the, the senior, the KC or QC, as he would have been at the time, [01:35:35] but his junior was with him. And I chased her out the courtroom and I was like, look, do you mind if I [01:35:40] contact you if I, you know, I’m just this is what I’m thinking of doing, gave me my gave me a [01:35:45] card. She said, email me. I’ll email you back so you know you’ve got the right you know, please contact me at any [01:35:50] time and any person, be it a Casey or a, [01:35:55] you know, senior or a junior or a pupil, I’ve everyone’s always [01:36:00] looking to push everyone else ahead there isn’t this. Well, if I, if I, if [01:36:05] I give you the tools to get ahead, I’m going to be left behind. There doesn’t seem to be [01:36:10] that. Now there might be within a speciality, within a clinical negligence speciality, or there was one guy actually [01:36:15] who I asked if I could shadow him, and then he tried to put me off the whole thing [01:36:20] full stop, because he didn’t didn’t want me treading on his, you know. Yeah. Um, treading [01:36:25] on his toes, but more often. And I just and you just see these two [01:36:30] barristers, they’ll be talking before the case and they won’t be [01:36:35] trying to do each other down.

Dipali Dalia: They will be trying to get rid of the issues that they [01:36:40] can agree before they have to go into the judge, because I guess the whole point of the barrister [01:36:45] is to assist the judge in making the decision whilst representing the best interests [01:36:50] of their, you know. So, so yeah, so it is, you’re coming from a slightly different place, [01:36:55] which I, I guess then doesn’t raise that competition level quite so much. Yeah. [01:37:00] Um, but yeah, it was people were just kind and supportive. You [01:37:05] know, there are a lot of arrogant. I mean, there, there are a lot of arrogant people as well, don’t get me [01:37:10] wrong. You know, people who just, you know, why do you want to why are you wasting your time doing this? [01:37:15] Blah, blah, blah, not just kind of being, you know, positive about it, but, um, [01:37:20] but yeah, I think amongst, and, but I do think that the senior [01:37:25] people, so I’ve, you know, looked through your list of people that you’ve, um, interviewed [01:37:30] and you’ve got some people who’ve done some amazing things, but, and in the few episodes [01:37:35] that I’ve listened to so far, even though these people have done these grand things. [01:37:40] The underlying thing that is theme is humility.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:37:45] know, you’re right. Often, often the people who achieved the most are the most [01:37:50] humble.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah. Because they don’t have to prove anything to anyone. But also it’s probably [01:37:55] just their will to do their best. You know, and not to get one over anyone else that has driven [01:38:00] them and they’ve not been sidetracked by it as well. You know, it allows you to be focussed [01:38:05] in what you do and you’re not worrying about what anyone else is doing.

Payman Langroudi: Final question. Final question. Woman [01:38:10] in dentistry. Woman in law. Is there a difference? Is there.

Dipali Dalia: Uh, again, [01:38:15] I think to be honest, it’s hard for me to answer [01:38:20] that question because I haven’t spent enough time. [01:38:25]

Payman Langroudi: In.

Dipali Dalia: Law. In law. But from what I. [01:38:30] So, for example, this neurosurgeon that I was telling you about, she was, um, [01:38:35] quite small, looked quite young and was constantly underestimated. [01:38:40] She’d be in multidisciplinary meetings where, um, other surgeons [01:38:45] would be saying, oh, have you ever done one of these before? Because she’d be taking notes. They thought she was an HR or reg or [01:38:50] something, and she was a consultant. So she and she said she hadn’t really felt that at all in the law. [01:38:55] That’s one. That’s a that’s a case. That’s a case history. Right. So that’s not a randomised [01:39:00] controlled trial. But um, but I don’t, you know, from what I [01:39:05] experienced, again, the judges just want the facts and they just [01:39:10] want to, you know, I don’t think they’re underestimating you if you’re delivering [01:39:15] what they want. So yeah. And I think, um, in terms of numbers, [01:39:20] it’s definitely a lot more equal than it used to be. Male, female. Um, [01:39:25] and chambers are very like, they’re very hot on equality and making [01:39:30] it, you know, being flexible for mothers with kids and things like that. So Yeah, [01:39:35] yeah. And dentistry, I think again, it’s it depends on how [01:39:40] like I haven’t felt I have felt some things where [01:39:45] I probably am have been underestimated [01:39:50] when I was a lot younger by patients and [01:39:55] possibly by employers who think, oh, well, she’ll go off and have babies. And so, you know, you might not get certain jobs [01:40:00] or whatever. Um, but I think once they know you, you [01:40:05] know what you’re talking about, then I think patients, I’ve not had that much sexism [01:40:10] in dentistry, I feel, unless I just can’t remember it [01:40:15] because I’m so old.

Payman Langroudi: There certainly was plenty. It was, it was.

Dipali Dalia: Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it was pretty [01:40:20] much. I mean, back in our day, definitely there was much more of it than now. But I’d [01:40:25] say it’s one of the professions where, you know, it’s, it’s the it’s the relationship between [01:40:30] you and the patient.

Dipali Dalia: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a very direct relationship. You know, yeah. We’re not having to climb corporate [01:40:35] ladders.

Dipali Dalia: And.

Payman Langroudi: Things.

Dipali Dalia: No, no. Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Or, you know, glass ceilings in terms of pay.

Dipali Dalia: Yeah [01:40:40] yeah yeah. That’s very equal like that, which is great. And I guess, you know, I do have, [01:40:45] like I said, that trait that I’ve inherited from my dad of please don’t push me. Like if [01:40:50] you’re overstepping, you’ll soon know about it. Is that you as well? I’m quite yeah. I’m quite like [01:40:55] I, I get all the difficult patients when patients ring up to make appointments and then [01:41:00] reception are like, I think we need to put this one with Dipali because she’ll sort them out.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s [01:41:05] been amazing. It’s been amazing. Thank you. Thank you very much. Well, thank.

Dipali Dalia: You for having me.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for [01:41:10] listening, guys. Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure you tune in for future episodes. [01:41:15] Hit subscribe in iTunes or Google Play or whatever platform it is. And [01:41:20] you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you would, um, give.

Payman Langroudi: Us a six star rating. [01:41:25]

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. That’s what I always leave my Uber driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks [01:41:30] a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.